1 2011-06-03 00:01:25 fckStick has joined
   2 2011-06-03 00:02:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
   3 2011-06-03 00:03:08 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pong
   4 2011-06-03 00:03:15 <jgarzik> BBC interview in T-15 min
   5 2011-06-03 00:03:16 <BlueMatt> do you want git head builds?
   6 2011-06-03 00:03:22 <BlueMatt> about bitcoin?
   7 2011-06-03 00:03:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it's really what Gavin wants...  My personal opinion is "yes"
   8 2011-06-03 00:04:32 Teslah has joined
   9 2011-06-03 00:04:32 <BlueMatt> well, Ill start some builds and send them around tomorrow
  10 2011-06-03 00:04:43 <luke-jr> lfm: more or less
  11 2011-06-03 00:04:56 <luke-jr> lfm: the intention of the OP_NOP is to prevent miners from accepting the transaction
  12 2011-06-03 00:06:17 <kish> BBC interviewing whom?
  13 2011-06-03 00:06:34 <BlueMatt> jgarzik Id assume, though about what?
  14 2011-06-03 00:06:34 <jgarzik> me
  15 2011-06-03 00:06:38 <jgarzik> bitcoin
  16 2011-06-03 00:06:43 <BlueMatt> EPIC
  17 2011-06-03 00:06:45 <BlueMatt> just you?
  18 2011-06-03 00:06:49 <theorbtwo> What bit of the BBC?
  19 2011-06-03 00:07:00 <BlueMatt> details, details, details
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  24 2011-06-03 00:08:30 <BlueMatt> is it live broadcasts, should I go down to the tv and turn it on?
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  27 2011-06-03 00:09:55 <jgarzik> phone interview
  28 2011-06-03 00:10:04 <BlueMatt> live?
  29 2011-06-03 00:10:26 <jgarzik> "BBC World Service Radio"
  30 2011-06-03 00:10:27 DontMindMe has quit (Client Quit)
  31 2011-06-03 00:10:35 <jgarzik> no idea if it's live or not.  it's definitely being recorded.
  32 2011-06-03 00:10:49 DontMindMe has joined
  33 2011-06-03 00:10:49 <lfm> oh, ill run down to the shortwave and turn it on
  34 2011-06-03 00:10:52 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  36 2011-06-03 00:10:59 <BlueMatt> need livestream link
  37 2011-06-03 00:12:04 <BlueMatt> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/bbc_world_service
  38 2011-06-03 00:12:15 <BlueMatt> (I think(
  39 2011-06-03 00:12:16 <BlueMatt> )
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  42 2011-06-03 00:12:54 <BlueMatt> news summary atm...
  43 2011-06-03 00:13:07 traviscj has joined
  44 2011-06-03 00:14:07 <BlueMatt> dont think its live "coming up later in the hour" doesnt seem to indicate anything
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  55 2011-06-03 00:28:35 <BlueMatt> ok, jgarzik, Im building win32 and going to bed, make sure to post when you get a link to the interview
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  62 2011-06-03 00:34:03 <tommygunner> it it possible for phoenix to use poclbm-mod instead of poclbm as a kernel?
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  68 2011-06-03 00:37:52 <quellhorst> anyone seen a video card go from 300,000 khash/sec down to 900 khash/sec?
  69 2011-06-03 00:38:05 hereforfun has joined
  70 2011-06-03 00:38:13 <dmh> mine did that the other day right before video card driver crashed
  71 2011-06-03 00:38:22 <dmh> phoenix was saying there was an openCL problem right before too
  72 2011-06-03 00:38:31 <Graet> i did when i ran out of work
  73 2011-06-03 00:38:33 <lfm> quellhorst: might be overheating
  74 2011-06-03 00:38:36 <Graet> even went to 0
  75 2011-06-03 00:39:11 <Graet> could be a range of things really
  76 2011-06-03 00:39:22 * jgarzik is evil
  77 2011-06-03 00:39:23 <jgarzik> EVIL
  78 2011-06-03 00:40:13 <BlueMatt> ???
  79 2011-06-03 00:40:35 mietek has left ()
  80 2011-06-03 00:41:15 <quellhorst> lfm: i think the fan is acting up.
  81 2011-06-03 00:41:22 <quellhorst> lfm: it stopped saying 100% a month ago
  82 2011-06-03 00:41:41 <lfm> ya, if your fan is failing then the gpu might overheat and throttle itself down
  83 2011-06-03 00:41:49 <quellhorst> i bet thats what happened.
  84 2011-06-03 00:42:02 <quellhorst> whats the solution? return to mfg?
  85 2011-06-03 00:42:04 <tommygunner> 02:26:31 tommygunner it it possible for phoenix to use poclbm-mod instead of poclbm as a kernel? <-- no ideas?
  86 2011-06-03 00:42:22 <tommygunner> or should i ask in -mining
  87 2011-06-03 00:42:31 <lfm> quellhorst: if its inb waranty then you can return it. or you may be able to get a new fan
  88 2011-06-03 00:42:48 <quellhorst> i'd rather just get a new fan if thats quicker.
  89 2011-06-03 00:42:52 <luke-jr> jgarzik: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE⁇⁇
  90 2011-06-03 00:42:53 <quellhorst> ordered it online.
  91 2011-06-03 00:42:57 <quellhorst> but it should be under warranty
  92 2011-06-03 00:43:24 <jgarzik> I refuse to acknowledge that bitcoin is a great way to buy drugs
  93 2011-06-03 00:43:28 <lfm> quellhorst: good luck
  94 2011-06-03 00:43:32 <jgarzik> and it drives them crazy
  95 2011-06-03 00:43:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: oh, that's not evil. thanks.
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  99 2011-06-03 00:44:08 <jgarzik> BBC even asked the same question, multiple times, trying to get me to say something silly.
 100 2011-06-03 00:44:15 <jgarzik> typical reporter's trick
 101 2011-06-03 00:44:35 <BlueMatt> lol, did you expect anything different
 102 2011-06-03 00:44:43 cosurgi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 103 2011-06-03 00:44:52 * BlueMatt has a bad feeling about the results of this interview all of a sudden...
 104 2011-06-03 00:45:04 * luke-jr has actually refused to sell bitcoins upon learning of intent to buy illegal drugs with them ;)
 105 2011-06-03 00:45:14 <tommygunner> jgarzik: link?
 106 2011-06-03 00:45:22 <jgarzik> tommygunner: I'd love a link :)
 107 2011-06-03 00:45:30 <tommygunner> lol
 108 2011-06-03 00:45:33 d4de has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 109 2011-06-03 00:45:46 <tommygunner> you shouldve asked back are there different ways of buying drugs
 110 2011-06-03 00:45:46 Pilate has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 111 2011-06-03 00:45:49 <tommygunner> or just buying drugs?
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 125 2011-06-03 00:57:26 <midnightmagic> someone once asked me if I would post my braindead fan modifications to art's ADL fan controller once I was finally satisfied with its behaviour.. I don't remember who you are, so, here: http://codepad.org/vLSvpsPi  I run it like so: artfan -t 80.0 -l /v/kull_cardlog -m 10.0 -s 1 -p 1.5 -i 0.4 -f 0.4   the -f is the feed-forward override. Whatever the activity level is, this bottom-clips the fanspeed to go no lower than -f times
 126 2011-06-03 00:57:26 <midnightmagic> the current activity. it really helps when the cards are busy.
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 131 2011-06-03 01:01:40 <jgarzik> another PR disaster: http://www.cnbc.com/id/43260177
 132 2011-06-03 01:02:01 <jgarzik> Sony hackers request bitcoin
 133 2011-06-03 01:03:00 Netsniper has joined
 134 2011-06-03 01:03:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the good thing about that, is its 2 paragraphs, that means those who want to buy drugs will do more research, and the rest will forget about it until they see a better more-featured article
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 148 2011-06-03 01:12:41 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille IPv6 * r5e1e458ecb0f bitcoind-personal/src/rpc.cpp: loss of significance in difficulty (by lfm) http://tinyurl.com/3nfxfsq
 149 2011-06-03 01:12:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille IPv6 * r7c05877df277 bitcoind-personal/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Merge remote branch 'upstream/master' http://tinyurl.com/3vudpsc
 150 2011-06-03 01:12:46 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille IPv6 * re104c7937455 bitcoind-personal/src/net.cpp: Bugfix for dnsseed introduced by dnslookup http://tinyurl.com/3m93l5f
 151 2011-06-03 01:12:49 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr IPv6 * r099ec75f69b9 bitcoind-personal/src/ (irc.cpp main.cpp net.cpp net.h util.cpp util.h): DRAFT for IPv6 support http://tinyurl.com/3vbsyco
 152 2011-06-03 01:13:08 <BlueMatt> wow, sipa's taking up ipv6, nice...very good to see
 153 2011-06-03 01:14:09 <BlueMatt> or is that luke-jr pulling into his ipv6?
 154 2011-06-03 01:14:17 WakiMiko_ has joined
 155 2011-06-03 01:14:25 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, second one
 156 2011-06-03 01:14:47 <luke-jr> surprised it showed the rebase that way
 157 2011-06-03 01:14:49 <BlueMatt> oh luke, still good to see that he's updating it...maybe doing more?
 158 2011-06-03 01:15:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: just rebasing my old stuff for jrmithdobbs
 159 2011-06-03 01:15:19 <BlueMatt> ah, well good to see *someone* is looking into it anyway
 160 2011-06-03 01:15:30 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 161 2011-06-03 01:15:42 <luke-jr> ☺
 162 2011-06-03 01:15:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: btw, who made it worse? -.-
 163 2011-06-03 01:16:07 scott` has joined
 164 2011-06-03 01:16:11 <BlueMatt> who made what worse?
 165 2011-06-03 01:16:18 <luke-jr> the networking code in bitcoind
 166 2011-06-03 01:16:26 <BlueMatt> it got worse?
 167 2011-06-03 01:16:27 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: sipa iirc did the dns lookup stuff no?
 168 2011-06-03 01:16:29 <BlueMatt> also git blame
 169 2011-06-03 01:16:32 <luke-jr> someone de-abstracted the byte swapping more than it was when I started
 170 2011-06-03 01:16:37 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 171 2011-06-03 01:16:51 <BlueMatt> dunno, I have never touched net code aside from upnp
 172 2011-06-03 01:16:54 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 174 2011-06-03 01:17:22 <jrmithdobbs> it's not pretty
 175 2011-06-03 01:17:33 <jrmithdobbs> why i was asking luke to rebase instead of doing it myself, haha
 176 2011-06-03 01:17:41 <jrmithdobbs> since he already knows what he'd worked on
 177 2011-06-03 01:17:42 skeledrew has joined
 178 2011-06-03 01:17:44 <BlueMatt> no, that much I do know...Ive looked at it, and after that decided it was best not to touch it ;)
 179 2011-06-03 01:19:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: does you 2.8 backport build on osx?
 180 2011-06-03 01:19:38 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: never bothered to test, but I dont see why not
 181 2011-06-03 01:19:49 <jrmithdobbs> i'll find out!
 182 2011-06-03 01:20:00 <BlueMatt> (unless theres a bad string convert hiding in an ifdef somewhere)
 183 2011-06-03 01:20:17 <jgarzik> PR, thoughts on interviews so far: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8940.msg162296#msg162296
 184 2011-06-03 01:20:20 <BlueMatt> literally all that pull does is convert wxString and std::string and such
 185 2011-06-03 01:24:54 <jrmithdobbs> oh nm, don't care there's a 2.9 package in macports
 186 2011-06-03 01:25:11 <jrmithdobbs> these osx build instructions are awful. everything it's building manually has packages in macports
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 192 2011-06-03 01:29:59 <jrmithdobbs> there's even a miniupnpc port!
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 200 2011-06-03 01:36:50 <jrmithdobbs> y'all are going to shoot me for this pull request
 201 2011-06-03 01:36:51 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 202 2011-06-03 01:37:02 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol wat
 203 2011-06-03 01:37:23 <jrmithdobbs> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/291
 204 2011-06-03 01:37:24 <phantomcircuit> also trying to build an i686 environment on gentoo from portage should not be as difficult as it is being
 205 2011-06-03 01:37:40 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 206 2011-06-03 01:37:45 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 207 2011-06-03 01:37:58 <phantomcircuit> it keeps building fucking x86_64 binaries
 208 2011-06-03 01:38:01 <phantomcircuit> i dont get it
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 210 2011-06-03 01:38:19 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol
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 213 2011-06-03 01:38:36 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: thought you'd like that one.
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 215 2011-06-03 01:38:55 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, THATS TOO MUCH CHANGE
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 219 2011-06-03 01:41:36 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol i spent all day building a cross compile for windows
 220 2011-06-03 01:41:52 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, only to realize i have to do the same for i686 since my build box is x64
 221 2011-06-03 01:42:08 bk128 has joined
 222 2011-06-03 01:42:20 <upb> phantomcircuit: i wanted to tell you that repeatedly connect() ing a nonblocking socket makes no sence
 223 2011-06-03 01:42:36 <upb> its supposed to be connect() and then select() :)
 224 2011-06-03 01:42:51 <phantomcircuit> upb, it's an attempt to keep the code as simple as possible
 225 2011-06-03 01:42:55 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i'll do your osx build for you if i get this sorted. i'll also be sending a pull with updated build instructions (and possibly a makefile.osx.macports, not that far yet)
 226 2011-06-03 01:43:12 <upb> i would argue that connect + select is even simpler
 227 2011-06-03 01:43:17 <phantomcircuit> upb, im well aware that it should be connect followed by poll/select/epoll
 228 2011-06-03 01:43:42 <phantomcircuit> upb, it's really not
 229 2011-06-03 01:44:06 <upb> more straightforward than building a loop with sleep
 230 2011-06-03 01:44:23 <jrmithdobbs> upb: my attempt to fix the same thing got aborted because i went to far and tried to switch it all to actually use the non-blocking socket (tedious) and got bored lol
 231 2011-06-03 01:44:37 <upb> haha
 232 2011-06-03 01:44:41 <jrmithdobbs> probably should be done at some point though
 233 2011-06-03 01:45:36 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 234 2011-06-03 01:45:45 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the crazy thing is that CNode actually is non blocking sockets
 235 2011-06-03 01:45:51 <phantomcircuit> ONLY the connect call is blocking
 236 2011-06-03 01:45:56 <phantomcircuit> it's the damdest thing
 237 2011-06-03 01:46:03 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 238 2011-06-03 01:48:13 Sylph has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 239 2011-06-03 01:48:54 <andrew12> i really think this is the best article on the bitcoin wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Why_a_GPU_mines_faster_than_a_CPU
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 247 2011-06-03 02:01:18 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
 248 2011-06-03 02:01:18 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":10.999,"low":9.5,"vol":41931,"buy":10.7201,"sell":10.8698,"last":10.72}}
 249 2011-06-03 02:01:30 intelliot has quit (Quit: intelliot)
 250 2011-06-03 02:02:52 <jrmithdobbs> andrew12: is that much text really needed to say "specialized paralllized processing always wins"?
 251 2011-06-03 02:05:18 ZOP has joined
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 253 2011-06-03 02:05:46 <ZOP> ooo it's good to have the extra GPU working again.
 254 2011-06-03 02:06:36 KingMartin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 255 2011-06-03 02:12:18 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
 256 2011-06-03 02:12:20 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":10.999,"low":9.5,"vol":41952,"buy":10.74,"sell":10.87,"last":10.87}}
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 259 2011-06-03 02:21:00 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: bah, i see what you were saying about miniupnpc ... a whole damned header file is gone
 260 2011-06-03 02:22:19 <phantomcircuit> lol
 261 2011-06-03 02:22:25 <jrmithdobbs> several of them
 262 2011-06-03 02:22:27 <jrmithdobbs> actually
 263 2011-06-03 02:22:30 <jrmithdobbs> wtf
 264 2011-06-03 02:22:30 <phantomcircuit> and their version identifier is fucking 1.5
 265 2011-06-03 02:22:35 <phantomcircuit> "1.5"
 266 2011-06-03 02:22:45 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: that non-blocking bit flip work on Windows also?  I haven't bothered to check.
 267 2011-06-03 02:23:03 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, windows uses ioctlsocket
 268 2011-06-03 02:23:04 <jrmithdobbs> ya and macports doesn't have a damned package for 1.5 proper just 1.5.20110527
 269 2011-06-03 02:23:12 <phantomcircuit> also the non blocking connect works perfectly on windows
 270 2011-06-03 02:23:24 <phantomcircuit> i built win32 binaries and have tested them
 271 2011-06-03 02:23:32 <phantomcircuit> you get 8 connections within seconds
 272 2011-06-03 02:23:49 <phantomcircuit> also enabled dnsseed by default since the irc server was randomly dropping connections
 273 2011-06-03 02:23:58 bertrandom has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 274 2011-06-03 02:24:26 <jrmithdobbs> i think miniupnc's project goal is to make building bitcoin annoying
 275 2011-06-03 02:24:43 <jrmithdobbs> miniupnpc's
 276 2011-06-03 02:24:43 <phantomcircuit> lol
 277 2011-06-03 02:24:57 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/bitcoin-windows.zip
 278 2011-06-03 02:25:02 <jrmithdobbs> not only are includes gone their *own includes* don't look for each other in the right damned place
 279 2011-06-03 02:25:09 <jrmithdobbs> wtf is this crap
 280 2011-06-03 02:25:18 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol
 281 2011-06-03 02:25:47 <jrmithdobbs> /opt/local/include/miniupnpc/upnpcommands.h:11:30: error: portlistingparse.h: No such file or directory
 282 2011-06-03 02:25:50 <jrmithdobbs> /opt/local/include/miniupnpc/upnpcommands.h:13:28: error: miniupnpctypes.h: No such file or directory
 283 2011-06-03 02:25:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
 284 2011-06-03 02:25:53 <jrmithdobbs> LOL
 285 2011-06-03 02:25:59 <jrmithdobbs> (caps intentional)
 286 2011-06-03 02:26:02 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, also built with upnp support
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 289 2011-06-03 02:27:27 <jrmithdobbs> vi /opt/local/include/miniupnpc/upnpcommands.h
 290 2011-06-03 02:27:31 <jrmithdobbs> err
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 295 2011-06-03 02:30:13 <jrmithdobbs> oh nm, this is a fuckup on the port maintainers part
 296 2011-06-03 02:30:19 Pilate has joined
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 298 2011-06-03 02:30:31 <jrmithdobbs> he didn't add a bunch of split out includes they added
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 305 2011-06-03 02:38:05 <jrmithdobbs> nope, it's the install target in the Makefile that's fucked, blargh
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 321 2011-06-03 02:56:26 fckStick has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 322 2011-06-03 02:58:14 <cacheson> is there anyway to put a cap on how many connections the bitcoin client can make?
 323 2011-06-03 02:58:34 clint_ has joined
 324 2011-06-03 02:59:14 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 325 2011-06-03 02:59:19 <jrmithdobbs> cacheson: yes, build limit of 8 outbound -maxconnections for max number of inbound (-8 so it needs to be at least 8)
 326 2011-06-03 02:59:46  has joined
 327 2011-06-03 03:00:48 HarryS has joined
 328 2011-06-03 03:01:04 <cacheson> I keep ending up with 300-400 connections... I think it's saturating my upstream bandwidth a bit
 329 2011-06-03 03:01:04 <cacheson> jrmithdobbs: any idea which version that was added in?
 330 2011-06-03 03:01:10 <cacheson> I'm still using 0.3.19 since it doesn't enforce transaction fees
 331 2011-06-03 03:01:16 _Netsniper_ has joined
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 334 2011-06-03 03:02:08 <jrmithdobbs> cacheson: you might as well upgrade since most miners have upgraded at this point and you'll soon stop being able to send those free txns anyways
 335 2011-06-03 03:02:26 sgornick has joined
 336 2011-06-03 03:02:38 <cacheson> they all seem to get through pretty quick, but alright
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 343 2011-06-03 03:07:05 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol im consistently getting 8 connections within 30 seconds on linux
 344 2011-06-03 03:08:01 <theymos> I am trying to fix something on the forum. Please click this link and tell me if "unknown" is displayed instead of your IP address: https://forum.bitcoin.org/test.php (also try the non-HTTPS version http://forum.bitcoin.org/test.php ).
 345 2011-06-03 03:08:23 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 346 2011-06-03 03:08:34 <tazjin> I get unknown on the non-https one
 347 2011-06-03 03:08:52 <theymos> Interesting. Do you get "unknown" twice?
 348 2011-06-03 03:09:28 <YwY> the same
 349 2011-06-03 03:09:29 <tcatm> https: IP twice, http: 1x unknown
 350 2011-06-03 03:09:43 <YwY> one unknown on the non-https page
 351 2011-06-03 03:09:47 <Graet> <tcatm> https: IP twice, http: 1x unknown  << same
 352 2011-06-03 03:09:50 <tazjin> Always get unknown on the non https one
 353 2011-06-03 03:10:03 <tazjin> and always my IP on the https one
 354 2011-06-03 03:10:34 tcoppi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 355 2011-06-03 03:10:36 soultcer has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 356 2011-06-03 03:10:37 gmaxwell has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 357 2011-06-03 03:10:47 <phantomcircuit> theymos, you run the forums?
 358 2011-06-03 03:10:51 jrmithdobbs has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 359 2011-06-03 03:10:59 <phantomcircuit> ill file that info away somewhere
 360 2011-06-03 03:11:05 soultcer has joined
 361 2011-06-03 03:11:19 dandymcgee has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
 362 2011-06-03 03:11:33 <theymos> Sirius hosts the server. He gave me ssh access because he didn't have time to fix these things.
 363 2011-06-03 03:11:39 <tazjin> same thing using a VPN in a different country btw
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 368 2011-06-03 03:12:53 <phantomcircuit> theymos, apache?
 369 2011-06-03 03:13:13 <theymos> No, it started when the forum was moved from Apache to lighttpd.
 370 2011-06-03 03:14:29 <theymos> Ah, I figured out how to reproduce it. Accessing the non-https version through a web proxy does it.
 371 2011-06-03 03:15:08 <phantomcircuit> theymos, lighttpd doesn't handle ssl all that well, usually it's used as a front end proxy for http hosts so it tends to drop stuff
 372 2011-06-03 03:15:56 jarly has joined
 373 2011-06-03 03:16:23 <jarly> hi
 374 2011-06-03 03:16:31 <jarly> have any of you heard of oclhashcat?
 375 2011-06-03 03:16:33 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 376 2011-06-03 03:16:55 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 377 2011-06-03 03:16:59 <jarly> it looks like it would be a ridiculously fast sha256 cracker
 378 2011-06-03 03:17:13 <_Netsni3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTqvYqXRbY <-- this is awesome
 379 2011-06-03 03:17:18 <jarly> even though we're not looking at cracking, it seems more efficient than current GPU miners
 380 2011-06-03 03:18:02 bertrandom has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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 384 2011-06-03 03:18:54 <phantomcircuit> jarly, looks like it's basically a hash cracker
 385 2011-06-03 03:19:03 <jarly> yeah
 386 2011-06-03 03:19:15 Clarence has joined
 387 2011-06-03 03:19:15 <phantomcircuit> so it's unliekly to be faster than the specialized bitcoin miners
 388 2011-06-03 03:19:42 normanrichards has joined
 389 2011-06-03 03:20:02 <jarly> isn't generating a hash similar to hash cracking except you just want one that has a couple bits = 0?
 390 2011-06-03 03:20:10 <jarly> *the first couple
 391 2011-06-03 03:20:51 <phantomcircuit> yes it's identical
 392 2011-06-03 03:21:00 brocktice has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 393 2011-06-03 03:21:05 <phantomcircuit> except that's a generic hash cracker supporting multiple algorithms
 394 2011-06-03 03:21:11 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin miners are specialized
 395 2011-06-03 03:21:17 <phantomcircuit> which do you think is faster? :P
 396 2011-06-03 03:21:34 dinox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 397 2011-06-03 03:21:39 <jarly> well, how are they specialized? they're just sha-256 hashes with additional bytes attached, right?
 398 2011-06-03 03:21:43 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 399 2011-06-03 03:21:49 <jarly> the block headers, that is
 400 2011-06-03 03:22:14 <mrb_> actually a good hash cracker should have a sha256 implementation just as optimized as a bitcoin miner
 401 2011-06-03 03:22:18 <phantomcircuit> jarly, the opencl code is specially tuned specifically for running sha256(sha256()) on partially computed sha256 rounds
 402 2011-06-03 03:22:19 brocktice has joined
 403 2011-06-03 03:22:19 brocktice has quit (Changing host)
 404 2011-06-03 03:22:19 brocktice has joined
 405 2011-06-03 03:22:24 <mrb_> I know because I have written both kinds of software
 406 2011-06-03 03:22:41 <mrb_> in fact gat3way has adapted his hash cracker into a bitcoin miner
 407 2011-06-03 03:22:53 dinox has joined
 408 2011-06-03 03:23:15 <mrb_> another example of someone having written both kinds of sw
 409 2011-06-03 03:23:21 <phantomcircuit> sure
 410 2011-06-03 03:23:25 <phantomcircuit> but as you just said
 411 2011-06-03 03:23:28 <phantomcircuit> he had to adapt it
 412 2011-06-03 03:23:38 <mrb_> of course
 413 2011-06-03 03:24:02 <theymos> Alright, I fixed it! lighttpd was returning an IPv6-encoded IP address for non-https requests for some reason. Thanks for your help.
 414 2011-06-03 03:24:50 retinal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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 417 2011-06-03 03:27:22 <jarly> mrb_: that's linux only, though, isn't it?
 418 2011-06-03 03:28:55 <zooko> Hey folks, I looked at http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml and it appeared there were a mere 1277 nodes connected at the time I looked.
 419 2011-06-03 03:29:00 <zooko> Is that the right order of magnitude?//
 420 2011-06-03 03:29:57 <jarly> damn. apparently the oclhashcat dev tweaked it to use BFI_INT and he got 1.27 gh/s with a single 5970
 421 2011-06-03 03:30:12 <jarly> if we could only channel his program for bitcoin mining..
 422 2011-06-03 03:30:22 <tcatm> jarly: BFI_INT is possible with recent miners
 423 2011-06-03 03:30:39 _Netsni3 has quit (Quit: Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. -Emma Goldman)
 424 2011-06-03 03:30:46 <jarly> yeah, and it does make a difference
 425 2011-06-03 03:30:48 intelliot has joined
 426 2011-06-03 03:31:07 <jarly> but it looks like that guy's hasher is running much, much faster than what bitcoin miners are using
 427 2011-06-03 03:31:08 Twoheaded has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 428 2011-06-03 03:31:21 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 429 2011-06-03 03:32:10 <tcatm> jarly: my 5970 do 1248 Mh/s and I don't overclock much.
 430 2011-06-03 03:32:30 <jarly> with a bitcoin miner?
 431 2011-06-03 03:32:35 <tcatm> poclbm
 432 2011-06-03 03:33:17 <jarly> ...what are your clocks?
 433 2011-06-03 03:33:21 GarrettB has joined
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 435 2011-06-03 03:33:26 GarrettB has joined
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 437 2011-06-03 03:33:54 <tcatm> jarly: 736 Mhz on that card
 438 2011-06-03 03:34:11  has joined
 439 2011-06-03 03:34:40 <jarly> wow, that's fast
 440 2011-06-03 03:34:58 <jarly> the 5970s on the mining hardware comparison seem to only hit 800
 441 2011-06-03 03:35:58 jrmithdobbs has joined
 442 2011-06-03 03:36:11 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 443 2011-06-03 03:36:26 <tcatm> jarly: also remember, that bitcoin hashes are 2x sha256
 444 2011-06-03 03:36:33 Twoheaded has joined
 445 2011-06-03 03:36:34 <jarly> ah, true
 446 2011-06-03 03:36:44 <jarly> ...so they're actually about equal then
 447 2011-06-03 03:37:12 <tcatm> 800*2 = 1.6gh/s
 448 2011-06-03 03:37:58 <jarly> that card had a clock speed of 850, though, so it's not a fair comparison
 449 2011-06-03 03:38:26 <tcatm> use (Mh/s)/MHz to compare them
 450 2011-06-03 03:38:34 <jarly> the others get around 600, so it looks like they're equal
 451 2011-06-03 03:39:01 _Netsniper_ has joined
 452 2011-06-03 03:39:20 <zooko> So, how many nodes do you think are currently replicating the bitcoin block chain?
 453 2011-06-03 03:39:58 <tcatm> zooko: my "supernode" is connected to about 800 nodes
 454 2011-06-03 03:40:39 DontMindMe2 has joined
 455 2011-06-03 03:40:43 <tcatm> i.e. it tries to connect to as many nodes as possible, asking for new addresses each time it connects to a new node
 456 2011-06-03 03:41:29 DontMindMe has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
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 458 2011-06-03 03:42:31 <zooko> tcatm: ah, good data point, thanks.
 459 2011-06-03 03:43:00 <tcatm> btw, this is the result of parsing data from all these nodes: http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/map/
 460 2011-06-03 03:43:08 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, modified bitcoind or custom?
 461 2011-06-03 03:43:21 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: my python client on asyncore
 462 2011-06-03 03:43:26 <phantomcircuit> ah
 463 2011-06-03 03:43:36 DontMindMe2 has quit (Client Quit)
 464 2011-06-03 03:43:45 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i had bitcoind modified for a while that'd do that too
 465 2011-06-03 03:44:02 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: just bump outbound connections to ~512 and maxconnections to 1024
 466 2011-06-03 03:44:05 <jrmithdobbs> by default
 467 2011-06-03 03:44:22 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: that'll still follow the 1 per class b rule but you'll end up with ~300-400 connections or so
 468 2011-06-03 03:44:41 <zooko> tcatm: cool!
 469 2011-06-03 03:44:50 <zooko> tcatm: I'm a fan of python and twisted.
 470 2011-06-03 03:44:54 <phantomcircuit> well im cool with 8 since the router here keeps crashing under the load of 500KB/s over wifi
 471 2011-06-03 03:44:55 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 472 2011-06-03 03:45:08 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 473 2011-06-03 03:45:29 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's on a box on a 100mbit (burstable, and actually really is) pipe
 474 2011-06-03 03:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> i don't have to worry about that
 475 2011-06-03 03:45:47 <jarly> tcatm: where should I start if I want to learn more about GPGPU?
 476 2011-06-03 03:45:51 <scott`> ;;bc,stats
 477 2011-06-03 03:45:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128273 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 750 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 519144.38304394
 478 2011-06-03 03:46:13 <jarly> i mean, the very basics. assembly?
 479 2011-06-03 03:46:43 <Clarence> bitcoin-bears please come out of closet... is there any systemic risk inherent in holding bitcoins, or is it as persistent as, say gold is?
 480 2011-06-03 03:46:48 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol yeah i have access to a gbps box but it's got cpanel and shit isntalled on it so i just dont bother
 481 2011-06-03 03:46:51  has joined
 482 2011-06-03 03:46:53 <tcatm> jarly: read all PDFs ATI wrote about OpenCL and Stream :)
 483 2011-06-03 03:47:02 <jarly> hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng
 484 2011-06-03 03:47:04 <jarly> alrighty
 485 2011-06-03 03:47:38 <jarly> i'm a pythonista, so this is gonna be torture...
 486 2011-06-03 03:47:46 <jarly> but i guess it's worth it, lol
 487 2011-06-03 03:47:56 <tcatm> I've had to read them multiple times to write my first miner. GPGPU architectures can be quite confusing if you have no experience with parallel algorithms
 488 2011-06-03 03:48:00 tcoppi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 495 2011-06-03 03:48:49 <jarly> is there some kind of "Hello World" program you'd suggest?
 496 2011-06-03 03:49:01 <tcatm> the ATI SDK has lots of examples
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 508 2011-06-03 04:04:31 <cornfeed> is there a way to map the nodes connected to the network
 509 2011-06-03 04:04:33 <cornfeed> ?
 510 2011-06-03 04:06:33 <jrmithdobbs> cool think i've got a working macports build + instructions + makefile + options to toggle i386+x86_64/i386only/x86_64only (needed that since my macports only build x86_64 ;P)
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 515 2011-06-03 04:12:29 <jrmithdobbs> bleh, mostly working, stupid wx-config in the 2.9 broken and spits out build paths instead of installed paths for the libraries, lol
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 522 2011-06-03 04:19:02 Dark_Apostrophe has joined
 523 2011-06-03 04:20:31 <Dark_Apostrophe> Hello, is it possible to see the bandwidth usage by the Bitcoin client within it? Upload and download bandwidth. Possibly also latency to the fastest peer... If not, could I request it as a UI feature? It can be configurable, so users wouldn't have to see it all the time.
 524 2011-06-03 04:22:24 <lfm> Dark_Apostrophe: anything just about is possible, I dont know of any developers who would be interested in doing that for ya tho. maybe if there was a bounty
 525 2011-06-03 04:22:44 <Dark_Apostrophe> I see
 526 2011-06-03 04:23:18 <Dark_Apostrophe> Btw, someone was working on a Qt UI, right?
 527 2011-06-03 04:23:34 <lfm> your OS may have some tools to see network traffic
 528 2011-06-03 04:23:42 <Dark_Apostrophe> How's that progressing, and is it planned for inclusion in the main client at some point?
 529 2011-06-03 04:24:15 <lfm> I havnt heard about that qt thing so ...?
 530 2011-06-03 04:25:09 <Dark_Apostrophe> saw forum mention of it at some point.. hold on, I'll look around
 531 2011-06-03 04:25:25 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
 532 2011-06-03 04:25:43 <lfm> there is that stand alone gui thingy someone made, I havnt looked a it myself tho
 533 2011-06-03 04:26:26 <Dark_Apostrophe> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=2022.20
 534 2011-06-03 04:27:46 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 535 2011-06-03 04:28:51 RatDaddy has joined
 536 2011-06-03 04:30:13 <lfm> Dark_Apostrophe: I dont think it will be combined into the main client, it will stay separate
 537 2011-06-03 04:30:30 <Dark_Apostrophe> Damn, okay
 538 2011-06-03 04:30:50 <Dark_Apostrophe> The UI just looked so good - Good layout + Qt is generally good looking
 539 2011-06-03 04:31:12 <zooko> Clarence: are you kidding? There is definitely systemic risk.
 540 2011-06-03 04:31:14 <lfm> well use it then
 541 2011-06-03 04:31:32 <Dark_Apostrophe> will see how once it gets more complete
 542 2011-06-03 04:31:48 <Clarence> zooko, could you explain?
 543 2011-06-03 04:32:41 <Clarence> or give me a link
 544 2011-06-03 04:32:49 <lfm> Clarence: bitcoin prices are quite voletile
 545 2011-06-03 04:33:04 <lfm> mtgox.com
 546 2011-06-03 04:33:19 <Clarence> ya, but that's not the risk I meant
 547 2011-06-03 04:34:10 <lfm> what do you mean by systemic then?
 548 2011-06-03 04:34:10 <zooko> Clarence: it is a new and untested idea.
 549 2011-06-03 04:34:50 <lfm> and bitcoin seems to be following a classic bubble path
 550 2011-06-03 04:35:06 <zooko> Clarence: there are very few (I think) people who both understand how it works and know how to break such things.
 551 2011-06-03 04:35:36 <lfm> zooko: more every day I think
 552 2011-06-03 04:36:04 <zooko> Yes, but more every day isn't sufficient to give me confidence in little systemic risk.
 553 2011-06-03 04:36:17 RatDaddy has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 554 2011-06-03 04:36:35 <lfm> yes more that understand btc and more that have ideas to break it
 555 2011-06-03 04:37:17 <zooko> I guess it is a matter of how much you are willing to gamble and what your tolerance for risk is.
 556 2011-06-03 04:38:00 <dirtyfilthy> the greatest risk imho is mtgox gets shutdown
 557 2011-06-03 04:38:05 Dark_Apostrophe has left ("Screw you guys, I'm going home")
 558 2011-06-03 04:38:29 <lfm> dirtyfilthy: I suspect that would only be a small bump in the road
 559 2011-06-03 04:38:51 EPiSKiNG has joined
 560 2011-06-03 04:38:54 <dirtyfilthy> it depends, that's a lot of money/bitcoin down the drain
 561 2011-06-03 04:39:11 <zooko> It MtGox holding a lot of USD and/or BTC on behalf of its customers?
 562 2011-06-03 04:39:14 <zooko> s/It/Is/
 563 2011-06-03 04:39:22 <dirtyfilthy> a huge amount
 564 2011-06-03 04:39:25 <lfm> but I think other traders would pop up pretty quick to fill in the void
 565 2011-06-03 04:40:27 <lfm> zooko: he has none of mine atm so I am philosphical about it
 566 2011-06-03 04:40:27 <zooko> Do we know how much?
 567 2011-06-03 04:42:18 <lfm> zooko: you can see a sort of minimum amount in the "depth of market" graph. it coulbe a lot more than that tho
 568 2011-06-03 04:42:39 <dirtyfilthy> volume in the 24 hours was 41607 * say ten usd a bitcoin (avg price) = 416,070 USD went through the market today
 569 2011-06-03 04:43:00 <dirtyfilthy> the amount actually held must be many times that
 570 2011-06-03 04:43:26 <lfm> dirtyfilthy: ya but that could be very transient money. in and out very quickly
 571 2011-06-03 04:44:57 <zooko> Hm.
 572 2011-06-03 04:45:09 <zooko> But still, he could probably make off with something on that order.
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 579 2011-06-03 04:48:20 <lfm> see all the "bids" on the "depth of market page? multiply the prize by thet amount and add them up, that is dollars he is holding. the for the asks do the same, that is btc he is holding
 580 2011-06-03 04:48:41 <lfm> prize -> price
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 582 2011-06-03 04:49:17 <Clarence> ya, and there's probably 5 times that amount not in orders
 583 2011-06-03 04:49:42 <lfm> and then there is the "dark orders"
 584 2011-06-03 04:50:26 <Xenland> Backburn? you there mate?
 585 2011-06-03 04:52:26 lulzplzkthx_ has joined
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 587 2011-06-03 04:55:30 <zooko> Wow. What temptation!
 588 2011-06-03 04:55:52 <zooko> But, I actually am thinking about deeper, technical systemic risks.
 589 2011-06-03 04:56:29 <zooko> My current thesis is that no matter what spectacular disasters or market crashes were to hit BitCoin, it might (*might*) continue to be useful and used as a currency.
 590 2011-06-03 04:57:22 <zooko> So, for example, mtgox absconding with everyone's money, triggering a return to prices of $0.001 == ⓑ1.00. :-)
 591 2011-06-03 04:57:50 <zooko> Maybe something like that could happen, and a critical mass of people would continue to rely on BitCoin to buy their coffee every week.
 592 2011-06-03 04:58:14 <lfm> zooko: well I spoze there is a tiny chance of a cryptographic breakthru that would make it very easy to make hashes of whatever pattern you want. then someone could start mining and collect huge payoffs (in btc) from mining which would prolly make the value collapse
 593 2011-06-03 04:58:20 <zooko> Assuming they had, um, about ⓑ10,000 to spend on coffee.
 594 2011-06-03 04:58:47 <Clarence> what about persistent DOS attacks?
 595 2011-06-03 04:58:48 <zooko> lfm: yeah, see that's the kind of "deeper" systemic risk I'm talking about. Something that makes it so that Alice and Bob cannot reliably exchange BitCoin payments at all, even if they both want to.
 596 2011-06-03 04:59:08 <zooko> Clarence: interesting! I haven't thought about it too much.
 597 2011-06-03 04:59:11 <zooko> Could be a problem.
 598 2011-06-03 04:59:46 <lfm> well ddos attacks against a distributed p2p net are kinda hard since youd need to ddos thousands of ports
 599 2011-06-03 04:59:47 <Clarence> i've just seen it mentioned
 600 2011-06-03 05:00:41 <lfm> the pools do make a kinda centrallized target for ddos attacks I spoze but thats not really any permanent damage to bitcoin net itself really
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 605 2011-06-03 05:05:37 <lfm> if you have intimate knowledge of the connections that nodes have you can isolate and manipulate nodes or small groups of nodes so they are fooled into beleiving things which are not true and get overturned when the net rejoins
 606 2011-06-03 05:06:51 <lfm> like if your isp was a bitcoin expert he could really screw around with you
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 611 2011-06-03 05:14:00 <Clarence> I think a major threat would could be competing digital commodities
 612 2011-06-03 05:14:20 <cacheson> lfm: what could they actually do, assuming you're not running a "lite" client?
 613 2011-06-03 05:14:29 <lfm> Clarence: there are several competing digital commodities already
 614 2011-06-03 05:14:35 <cacheson> if they try to feed you fake transaction data, it'll fail verification
 615 2011-06-03 05:14:56 <Clarence> lfm, names please :)
 616 2011-06-03 05:15:10 <lfm> cacheson: if they isolate you from the main net I think they can double spend
 617 2011-06-03 05:15:41 <lfm> Liberty Reserve, pecunix and others
 618 2011-06-03 05:15:51 <cacheson> lfm: they'd have to have a significant mining operation to back it up, wouldn't they?  if you're isolated, there's no miners
 619 2011-06-03 05:16:09 <cacheson> and without miners no transactions get processed
 620 2011-06-03 05:16:11 <lfm> cacheson: ya prolly, i guess so
 621 2011-06-03 05:17:10 <cacheson> maybe there are some attacks they could pull off, but nothing really seems obvious to me
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 623 2011-06-03 05:17:54 <lfm> cacheson: and if you are vigilant you will notice that most of the world has dissapeared
 624 2011-06-03 05:18:11 <cacheson> I could see them taking advantage of isolated miners
 625 2011-06-03 05:18:15 <cacheson> since those aren't full clients
 626 2011-06-03 05:18:50 <lfm> cacheson: ya, there are I think many ways that pool managers can take eadvantage of miners
 627 2011-06-03 05:19:09 <cacheson> an ISP could do it too, unless the pool was using SSL
 628 2011-06-03 05:19:12 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 629 2011-06-03 05:20:16 <lfm> maybe ya, depends how the pool is set up too
 630 2011-06-03 05:22:30 <Clarence> could it be said bitcoin has first mover advantage among systems that don't have to 'follow the rules'?
 631 2011-06-03 05:22:58 <lfm> not sure what that means
 632 2011-06-03 05:23:56 <Clarence> no irs reporting, psudo-anonimity ect
 633 2011-06-03 05:23:58 <zooko> Someone could definitely say that if they wanted to.
 634 2011-06-03 05:24:18 <cacheson> it is the first decentralized electronic currency that's secure against double-spending
 635 2011-06-03 05:24:19 <jgarzik> Clarence: bitcoins do not alleviate your IRS burdens
 636 2011-06-03 05:24:25 <lfm> and on irc they prolly will say it sooner or later
 637 2011-06-03 05:24:37 <jgarzik> Clarence: I take a -huge- IRS hit due to bitcoins this year
 638 2011-06-03 05:24:37 <cacheson> other e-currencies are centralized, so you have to trust the issuer
 639 2011-06-03 05:25:36 <kreal-> Can anyone recomment a cheap sms provider?
 640 2011-06-03 05:26:17 <lfm> sms just isnt cheap as I understand it
 641 2011-06-03 05:27:00 <kreal-> yup
 642 2011-06-03 05:27:16 <kreal-> dont want sms notifications to ruin my pool.
 643 2011-06-03 05:27:32 <jgarzik> https://smsz.net/ - 0.5 BTC per SMS
 644 2011-06-03 05:27:39 <Raccoon> jgarzik: in what regard
 645 2011-06-03 05:27:40 <jgarzik> though I bet MT would lower price
 646 2011-06-03 05:27:42 <gjs278> rihahaha
 647 2011-06-03 05:27:46 dmh has quit ()
 648 2011-06-03 05:27:51 <cacheson> heh
 649 2011-06-03 05:27:52 <Raccoon> jgarzik: are you claiming bitcoins you have mined?
 650 2011-06-03 05:27:56 <kreal-> uh nice jgarzik
 651 2011-06-03 05:27:57 <lfm> like there seems no reasonable way that sms messages should cost more that email messages but they do
 652 2011-06-03 05:28:03 <cacheson> nice, $5 per SMS
 653 2011-06-03 05:28:15 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> though I bet MT would lower price
 654 2011-06-03 05:28:27 <cacheson> lfm: it's one of those "what the market will bear" situations
 655 2011-06-03 05:28:28 <jgarzik> MT probably hasn't updated site for latest value
 656 2011-06-03 05:28:44 <Raccoon> lol wow.  bitcoins for SMS
 657 2011-06-03 05:28:52 <Raccoon> thats a pretty fair deal right there
 658 2011-06-03 05:28:58 <Niedar> 5$
 659 2011-06-03 05:29:02 <lfm> wow 0.5 btc per sms? so like $5 per sms!
 660 2011-06-03 05:29:11 <Raccoon> oh wait nvm
 661 2011-06-03 05:29:19 <Raccoon> i thought as a means of buying bitcoins :P
 662 2011-06-03 05:29:20 <Raccoon> lol
 663 2011-06-03 05:29:56 <Raccoon> "send an SMS to 99999 with your BTC Address, and we'll charge your phone provider $5 per 0.5 BTC"
 664 2011-06-03 05:30:13 <lfm> now that would be nice
 665 2011-06-03 05:30:22 <Raccoon> that would be pretty slick
 666 2011-06-03 05:32:03 <lfm> gotta go ... see yall
 667 2011-06-03 05:32:10 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
 668 2011-06-03 05:33:13 <zooko> jgarzik: did you declare your mining results to the IRS?
 669 2011-06-03 05:34:56 dubious has joined
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 671 2011-06-03 05:36:27 <Niedar> http://www.daopay.com/
 672 2011-06-03 05:37:15 <Niedar> dunno reputation but you could use something like that
 673 2011-06-03 05:37:27 <Niedar> for what you are talking about
 674 2011-06-03 05:40:09 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 675 2011-06-03 05:42:02 <Niedar> actually here is a list of different service providers for that type of billing
 676 2011-06-03 05:42:04 <Niedar> http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/making-money/287848-pay-per-call-pay-per-sms-website.html
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 693 2011-06-03 05:58:17 <jgarzik> Bitcoin now world's most powerful supercomputer: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11544.0   (edit:  please check my math and proofread... ktnx)
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 696 2011-06-03 06:00:15 <gjs278> yeah folding@home got raped
 697 2011-06-03 06:01:47 <tommygunner> stresstest applications or benchmarks should mine bitcoins too
 698 2011-06-03 06:02:22 Kiba has joined
 699 2011-06-03 06:03:06 <jgarzik> gjs278: any chance you have a link or good google string for F@H numbers?
 700 2011-06-03 06:03:14 <jgarzik> my goog-fu is weak, apparently
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 707 2011-06-03 06:16:43 <diki> so, i ripped the part where the hexstr get's converted to a valid block so it can be confirmed, however...it posts back some jibberish
 708 2011-06-03 06:16:44 <diki> http://pastebin.com/0qWH2mbM
 709 2011-06-03 06:17:01 <diki> it's basically a small program i am going to use
 710 2011-06-03 06:17:32 <diki> dont mind the includes, i just wasn's sure which to use
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 713 2011-06-03 06:19:55 <sgstair> I have to seriously question any calculation which suggests that a double sha256 takes >10000 floating point operations. For one, it doesn't. (I count approximately 5000 individual integer operations, unoptimized) For two though, they're obviously not floating point, and there's no comparison.
 714 2011-06-03 06:20:54 <cacheson> using floats in your hash algorithm would make it really... interesting
 715 2011-06-03 06:21:18 <diki>  <cacheson> usin<- to who were you referring?
 716 2011-06-03 06:21:29 <cacheson> diki: sgstair
 717 2011-06-03 06:25:02 <diki> so, any ideas why the program is not working?
 718 2011-06-03 06:29:35 <kish> is the public channel log searchable?
 719 2011-06-03 06:30:12 <diki> use the browser search function
 720 2011-06-03 06:30:58 <jgarzik> sgstair: did you read the referenced thread?
 721 2011-06-03 06:31:19 <sgstair> I did not see it, looking
 722 2011-06-03 06:31:25 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 723 2011-06-03 06:31:48 <gjs278> how many confirms do you need to send those coins
 724 2011-06-03 06:31:59 <gjs278> that you've received
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 727 2011-06-03 06:33:44 <jgarzik> gjs278: at least one
 728 2011-06-03 06:33:57 <jgarzik> gjs278: >1 confirms give ever-greater confidence of no double spend
 729 2011-06-03 06:34:00 <gjs278> alright
 730 2011-06-03 06:34:07 <gjs278> 3 should be good enough then
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 732 2011-06-03 06:34:16 <jgarzik> yes
 733 2011-06-03 06:38:10 <jrmithdobbs> if things are built with -DwxDEBUG_LEVEL=0 why am I still getting wxWidgets Debug Alert dialogs pop up?!
 734 2011-06-03 06:38:50 <jrmithdobbs> instead of it going to stdout
 735 2011-06-03 06:38:58 <jrmithdobbs> (or stderr, whatever)
 736 2011-06-03 06:39:54 <diki> hey jrmith give me suggestions
 737 2011-06-03 06:40:03 <jrmithdobbs> diki: give me some money
 738 2011-06-03 06:41:20 natetheis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 740 2011-06-03 06:44:32 <jrmithdobbs> ah, makefile.osx is missing -D__WXDEBUG__
 741 2011-06-03 06:45:30 Xenland has joined
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 743 2011-06-03 06:45:40 <diki> you have a mac?
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 747 2011-06-03 06:48:01 <jrmithdobbs> oh nm i see the problem, has to actually be turned off in wxwidgets at build time. fucking annoying. remembering why i never build the damned gui
 748 2011-06-03 06:48:07 <jrmithdobbs> diki: yes?
 749 2011-06-03 06:48:27 Xyz has joined
 750 2011-06-03 06:48:56 <diki> so my program does seem to work in a way, i just want it to print a sha256 hash, not some mumbo jumbo
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 754 2011-06-03 06:51:55 <forexmasterja> can Everybody say $11 -> 1 !!!
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 758 2011-06-03 06:55:02 <noagendamarket> woot
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 783 2011-06-03 07:47:40 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 65000
 784 2011-06-03 07:47:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 65000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 47 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 4 minutes, and 53 seconds
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 791 2011-06-03 07:53:21 <Raccoon> any client devs currently present?
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 809 2011-06-03 08:12:00 <intelliot> i'm interested in building a site like mtgox, but with a different fee structure (x bitcoins per trade). contact me if you're able to do this
 810 2011-06-03 08:12:49 <da2ce7> I'm looking for a professional c++ programer...
 811 2011-06-03 08:16:57 <Xenland__> are there any non-free opensource lisences
 812 2011-06-03 08:19:15 <davep> depends how you define free. http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category
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 817 2011-06-03 08:24:08 <Xenland__> Basicly i want to sell my already opensource software, but i have a client that wants to have the option to not have to be forced to give out his modified code
 818 2011-06-03 08:24:41 <Xenland__> He will pay me to have the right to keep it opensource but he will have to pay to have the right to keep it private aswell?
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 822 2011-06-03 08:32:29 <vegard> Xenland__: if you wrote/own all the code, you just distribute it to your client under a private license that says they're not allowed to redistribute it
 823 2011-06-03 08:32:56 <Xenland__> vegard: and a few words will hold up in court?
 824 2011-06-03 08:33:20 <Xenland__> Too me if your vauge its hard to prove that the offending person did anything wrong.... i may be naive but that just what i think
 825 2011-06-03 08:33:38 <vegard> just sign a contract, what's the problem?
 826 2011-06-03 08:33:57 <Xenland__> Well a license is a contract... soo i guess no problem
 827 2011-06-03 08:34:04 <Xenland__> are you a lawyer?
 828 2011-06-03 08:34:17 <Xenland__> I dont plan on suing anybody I would just like to know that i have that proctection
 829 2011-06-03 08:34:45 <vegard> IANAL, developer
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 831 2011-06-03 08:35:26 <molecular> what's the status with wx. Do I still need wx 2.9 to build bitcoin or will it work with 2.8 with newest git version?
 832 2011-06-03 08:35:39 fimp has joined
 833 2011-06-03 08:36:00 <sipa> bluematt has a patch to make it work with 2.8
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 835 2011-06-03 08:37:13 <Xenland__> vegard: ISNO, grammer
 836 2011-06-03 08:38:07 <cacheson> Xenland__: look up "dual licensing"
 837 2011-06-03 08:38:14 <cacheson> that sounds like what you're looking for
 838 2011-06-03 08:38:31 <Xenland__> Cool, I'll check that out
 839 2011-06-03 08:39:01 <cacheson> Xenland__: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Multi-licensing
 840 2011-06-03 08:39:13 <Xenland__> Thanks mate this is exactly what i was talking about
 841 2011-06-03 08:39:20 <cacheson> sure thing  :)
 842 2011-06-03 08:39:21 <Xenland__> Non-free Opensource licenses
 843 2011-06-03 08:39:25 <Xenland__> :D
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 849 2011-06-03 08:53:11 <da2ce7> Hiring a C++ programer.
 850 2011-06-03 08:53:11 <da2ce7> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11573.0
 851 2011-06-03 08:53:47 Breign has joined
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 853 2011-06-03 08:55:49 matrix has joined
 854 2011-06-03 08:56:45 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
 855 2011-06-03 08:56:46 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":13.6,"low":9.55,"vol":50289,"buy":12.9003,"sell":13.0997,"last":12.9003}}
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 863 2011-06-03 09:03:19 <vegard> what does "coinbase" refer to?
 864 2011-06-03 09:03:36 tonik has joined
 865 2011-06-03 09:04:16 <vegard> ah, the transaction with the coins from block generation?
 866 2011-06-03 09:04:29 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
 867 2011-06-03 09:04:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128327 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 696 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 525349.41062639
 868 2011-06-03 09:04:35 metonymous has quit (Quit: metonymous)
 869 2011-06-03 09:06:04 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
 870 2011-06-03 09:06:05 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":13.6,"low":9.55,"vol":50688,"buy":12.9,"sell":13.0998,"last":13}}
 871 2011-06-03 09:12:51 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
 872 2011-06-03 09:13:07 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
 873 2011-06-03 09:17:14 <Xenland> round(high) = $14
 874 2011-06-03 09:17:19 <Xenland> OMG MTGOX IS $14!!!!
 875 2011-06-03 09:18:59 <cacheson> no rounding allowed in here
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 904 2011-06-03 09:52:05 matija has joined
 905 2011-06-03 09:52:11 <matija> Hi to all!
 906 2011-06-03 09:52:35 <matija> How can I contribute with localization?
 907 2011-06-03 09:52:43 cboy has joined
 908 2011-06-03 09:54:04 <cacheson> hi matija  :)
 909 2011-06-03 09:54:19 <cacheson> none of the devs seem to be awake at the moment, maybe try back later?
 910 2011-06-03 09:54:35 <cacheson> alternatively, maybe do a search on the forums
 911 2011-06-03 09:54:44 <matija> cahceson, I will. Thank you! :)
 912 2011-06-03 09:54:50 <cacheson> sure thing  :)
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 916 2011-06-03 10:06:42 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
 917 2011-06-03 10:06:43 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":14,"low":9.55,"vol":53244,"buy":13.85,"sell":13.9,"last":13.9}}
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 922 2011-06-03 10:17:39 ordex has joined
 923 2011-06-03 10:17:41 <ordex> hello
 924 2011-06-03 10:18:08 <ordex> I have problems while running minerd with bitcoind. is this the right place to ask? I just want to understand what cause the error
 925 2011-06-03 10:18:23 <PirateMarmalade> There is also #bitcoin-mining
 926 2011-06-03 10:18:38 <PirateMarmalade> If the problem is mining specific
 927 2011-06-03 10:18:43 <ordex> not really
 928 2011-06-03 10:18:50 ukcd has joined
 929 2011-06-03 10:18:58 <ordex> I just got this message while running minerd: HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 500
 930 2011-06-03 10:19:01 <Phoebus> wtb new bitcoin version with less transaction fees sooner :P considering the new heights of exhange rates...
 931 2011-06-03 10:19:21 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
 932 2011-06-03 10:19:30 <ordex> PirateMarmalade: I'm tring to understand what causes the 500 error
 933 2011-06-03 10:20:17 <PirateMarmalade> 500 is internal server error
 934 2011-06-03 10:20:34 <PirateMarmalade> Not sure under what conditions bitcoind returns that
 935 2011-06-03 10:20:44 <ordex> mhhh
 936 2011-06-03 10:20:45 <PirateMarmalade> (I don't user minerd either)
 937 2011-06-03 10:20:48 <ordex> so it is bitcoind fault
 938 2011-06-03 10:20:54 <ordex> not minerd
 939 2011-06-03 10:20:56 <ordex> right?
 940 2011-06-03 10:20:58 hendi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 941 2011-06-03 10:21:00 <jaromil> goodmorning
 942 2011-06-03 10:21:03 <PirateMarmalade> Might just be the way minerd is configured
 943 2011-06-03 10:21:19 <jaromil> FYI a good reason to rethink about strrpc pull req that genjix did
 944 2011-06-03 10:21:21 <jaromil>  http://blog.programmableweb.com/2010/10/19/the-twitter-id-shuffle-text-vs-numbers/
 945 2011-06-03 10:21:25 <ordex> mh I'm only giving it the user and the pass
 946 2011-06-03 10:23:24 <PirateMarmalade> Can you maybe post the configuration you are using (u/n and pass obscured of course)
 947 2011-06-03 10:23:50 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
 948 2011-06-03 10:24:25 <ordex> I'm tring to directly connect to 127.0.0.1:8332 with my browser and after loggin in I'm getting this error: {"result":null,"error":{"code":-32700,"message":"Parse error"},"id":null}
 949 2011-06-03 10:24:34 <ordex> PirateMarmalade: for bitcoind?
 950 2011-06-03 10:24:39 <PirateMarmalade> For minerd
 951 2011-06-03 10:24:47 <PirateMarmalade> whichever flags you are using
 952 2011-06-03 10:25:19 <ordex> ah I just passed --userpass user:pass, nothing more
 953 2011-06-03 10:25:54 hendi has joined
 954 2011-06-03 10:26:12 <ordex> should I use a config?
 955 2011-06-03 10:26:21 <PirateMarmalade> that should be fine
 956 2011-06-03 10:26:26 aiba has joined
 957 2011-06-03 10:26:34 <PirateMarmalade> try use --url maybe
 958 2011-06-03 10:26:43 <PirateMarmalade> then again i dont know minerd
 959 2011-06-03 10:27:30 <ordex> PirateMarmalade: ok thanks, but even with --url it doesn't work. is the error I pasted before normal?
 960 2011-06-03 10:28:07 <PirateMarmalade> I would test it, but no bitcoin on the pc im on nao
 961 2011-06-03 10:28:37 <ordex> ah ok
 962 2011-06-03 10:29:55 <edcba> someone should email that adam cohen ask him if he still abide to what he said on quora and if yes make a 1 year longbet with him to make things factuals
 963 2011-06-03 10:30:58 <edcba> oh wait there is a follow up from 20 hours ago...
 964 2011-06-03 10:33:43 <edcba> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2612237
 965 2011-06-03 10:33:53 <edcba> seems some better conclusions
 966 2011-06-03 10:38:51 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 967 2011-06-03 10:39:42 aiba has quit (Quit: aiba)
 968 2011-06-03 10:42:19 <doublec> jgarzik getting called out in a hacker new comment for 'marketing'
 969 2011-06-03 10:42:35 <doublec> "or example, in a Gawker story about drugs, Jeff Garzik, a core developer, inaccurately commented that Bitcoin could not be used to purchase anything anonymously. He surely knows that it wouldn't be difficult to do so; he appears simply to have been underplaying a regulatory risk that the currency faces in order to get part of the public on his side."
 970 2011-06-03 10:42:46 <doublec> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2614896
 971 2011-06-03 10:43:07 <tommygunner> everybody and their mother is trying to make their journalistic bones with bitcoin
 972 2011-06-03 10:43:26 <doublec> antiscam is very antibitcoin in that thread
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 977 2011-06-03 10:53:38 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
 978 2011-06-03 10:53:45 zamgo2 has joined
 979 2011-06-03 10:53:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128334 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 689 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes, and 7 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 523307.07372643
 980 2011-06-03 10:54:12 <tommygunner> ;;bc,gen 292000
 981 2011-06-03 10:54:21 <andrew12> jrmithdobbs: some people may not understand that right off the bat
 982 2011-06-03 10:54:54 <tommygunner> ;;bc,gend 292000 523307.07372643
 983 2011-06-03 10:55:17 <tommygunner> talk to me gribble :/
 984 2011-06-03 10:55:27 <andrew12> lol
 985 2011-06-03 10:55:36 <andrew12> it should pm you
 986 2011-06-03 10:55:42 <BlueMatt> gribble down yet again?
 987 2011-06-03 10:55:50 karnac_ has quit (Quit: karnac_)
 988 2011-06-03 10:55:51 <tommygunner> if i triggered spam?
 989 2011-06-03 10:56:00 <tommygunner> someone else just try it pls
 990 2011-06-03 10:56:09 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,mtgox
 991 2011-06-03 10:56:18 <tommygunner> zing
 992 2011-06-03 10:56:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 292000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.675358832259 BTC per day and 0.0281399513441 BTC per hour.
 993 2011-06-03 10:56:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 292000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 523307.07372643, is 0.561241958836 BTC per day and 0.0233850816182 BTC per hour.
 994 2011-06-03 10:56:31 <tommygunner> oh hai gribble
 995 2011-06-03 10:56:41 <BlueMatt> laggedy lag
 996 2011-06-03 10:57:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":14,"low":9.55,"vol":57508,"buy":12.5799,"sell":12.58,"last":12.58}}
 997 2011-06-03 11:02:57 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 998 2011-06-03 11:08:10 <wumpus> jaromil: yes, it'd be better to support strings in the json, so that no conversion to double is needed when you want to represent coins as decimal or integer type
 999 2011-06-03 11:08:56 <wumpus> using doubles for financial stuff is a big nono
1000 2011-06-03 11:09:29 <andrew12> is there any sort of feed, i.e. telnet, somewhere for the block and tx data that #bitcoin-watch has?
1001 2011-06-03 11:09:37 xata has joined
1002 2011-06-03 11:11:45 <xata> Hi, I have a problem - i am using ubuntu 11.04 with fluxbox. Bitcoin starts minimized in tray and i can not make it show by pressing left/right buttons/ How can i now find out number of my wallet? I am new to this.
1003 2011-06-03 11:12:54 TheAncientGoat has joined
1004 2011-06-03 11:15:25 <BlueMatt> xata: use 0.3.22 rc
1005 2011-06-03 11:15:27 <BlueMatt> bug in wx
1006 2011-06-03 11:16:15 <xata> BlueMatt, it is in git/somewhere else?
1007 2011-06-03 11:16:31 <BlueMatt> you can grab builds from sf/the forums, or checkout and built git head yourself
1008 2011-06-03 11:16:47 <BlueMatt> well checkout and build any bitcoin version with wx-trunk that is
1009 2011-06-03 11:17:35 <xata> BlueMatt, so i need trunk of wx or of bitcoin?
1010 2011-06-03 11:18:06 <BlueMatt> no, its exclusively a wx issue
1011 2011-06-03 11:18:09 <BlueMatt> any bitcoin and wx trunk
1012 2011-06-03 11:18:30 <BlueMatt> or a 0.3.22 build which are built against wx 2.9.1 with the relevant patches
1013 2011-06-03 11:18:52 <matija> hi again
1014 2011-06-03 11:19:48 Speeder has joined
1015 2011-06-03 11:19:55 <xata> BlueMatt, oh, thanks. i better go build bitcoin - it is easier and will not versions in system.
1016 2011-06-03 11:20:54 <BlueMatt> yea...you have to build all of wx first, no distros have 2.9 in their repos
1017 2011-06-03 11:20:59 <BlueMatt> much easier to dl bitcoin
1018 2011-06-03 11:21:07 <BlueMatt> (binary)
1019 2011-06-03 11:21:35 <ordex> why do I get this on get work: error: {"code":-9,"message":"Bitcoin is not connected!"}
1020 2011-06-03 11:21:39 <ordex> ?
1021 2011-06-03 11:21:50 <BlueMatt> because bitcoin is not connected?
1022 2011-06-03 11:22:01 phlippcoin has joined
1023 2011-06-03 11:22:04 <ordex> what should I do to connect it?
1024 2011-06-03 11:22:14 <ordex> I didn't find any suitable guide for this
1025 2011-06-03 11:22:30 <BlueMatt> its slow, give it time
1026 2011-06-03 11:22:48 <ordex> ah so it doesn't depend on me or on my configuration?
1027 2011-06-03 11:23:01 <ordex> oh, now I'm downloading blocks
1028 2011-06-03 11:23:15 <BlueMatt> well it will speed up significantly if you open port 8333 to your bitcoin node
1029 2011-06-03 11:23:36 <ordex> BlueMatt: another question, why does minerd get  HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error 500  ?
1030 2011-06-03 11:23:50 <ordex> BlueMatt: I'm behind a natted MAN..cannot do more
1031 2011-06-03 11:24:01 <BlueMatt> because the requested url returned a 500???
1032 2011-06-03 11:24:29 <ordex> BlueMatt: the requested url is http://127.0.0.1:8332 I don't know why it should return 500
1033 2011-06-03 11:24:35 <ordex> this is why I'm asking :/
1034 2011-06-03 11:24:54 <BlueMatt> meh, no idea, bitcoin shouldnt return a 500
1035 2011-06-03 11:25:26 <ordex> weird
1036 2011-06-03 11:25:55 <BlueMatt> nope something else on your computer is doing that, not bitcoin
1037 2011-06-03 11:26:02 <BlueMatt> bitcoin never returns 500, there is no 500 in its code
1038 2011-06-03 11:26:12 marlowe has joined
1039 2011-06-03 11:26:26 <ordex> ah
1040 2011-06-03 11:26:32 <BlueMatt> or wait...no 1 sec
1041 2011-06-03 11:26:33 <ordex> double weird
1042 2011-06-03 11:26:35 <ordex> ?
1043 2011-06-03 11:27:48 <BlueMatt> there are a couple places bitcoin might return 500, but none of them should be triggered if you are using a sane client
1044 2011-06-03 11:28:02 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1045 2011-06-03 11:28:12 <vegard> I got 500 before the block chain was completely downloaded
1046 2011-06-03 11:28:13 <ordex> I'm using cpuminer-1.0.1
1047 2011-06-03 11:28:17 <ordex> ah
1048 2011-06-03 11:28:21 <ordex> so this could be the reason
1049 2011-06-03 11:28:26 <ordex> as I'm still downloading blocks
1050 2011-06-03 11:28:38 <BlueMatt> maybe
1051 2011-06-03 11:28:52 <_flow_> is there someone who can help my recovering my wiki password?
1052 2011-06-03 11:29:02 <ordex> error: {"code":-10,"message":"Bitcoin is downloading blocks..."}
1053 2011-06-03 11:29:09 <BlueMatt> yea that you should see
1054 2011-06-03 11:29:21 <BlueMatt> though I suppose I didnt realize bitcoin returned 500 when it did that...
1055 2011-06-03 11:29:25 <BlueMatt> learn something new every day
1056 2011-06-03 11:29:39 <BlueMatt> oh, of course, Im blind...ErrorReply
1057 2011-06-03 11:29:55 <vegard> ah, yeah, I think I remember cpuminer doesn't report either the http code or the error message
1058 2011-06-03 11:30:11 <vegard> I actually used protocol analyser to see that it was a 500 and that it had "downloading blocks" error message
1059 2011-06-03 11:30:22 <BlueMatt> bitcoin doesnt report http code, cpuminer doesnt report error message
1060 2011-06-03 11:30:51 <vegard> maybe that's how it was, yeah
1061 2011-06-03 11:31:16 xata has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1064 2011-06-03 11:32:36 kermit has joined
1065 2011-06-03 11:34:35 <andrew12> i think it's kind of funny that when everyone was saying "i'm using x's wonderful kernel", i didn't realize they were talking about opencl kernels (because i didn't know what those were) until last night
1066 2011-06-03 11:34:38 hendi has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1067 2011-06-03 11:40:11 <edcba> it's funny that a site aimed at exchanging magic the gathering cards is now exchanging bitcoins :)
1068 2011-06-03 11:40:52 <edcba> it's quite an opposite 'money' exchanged here :)
1069 2011-06-03 11:42:24 sethsethseth___ has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1070 2011-06-03 11:42:28 <jeremias> lol, was that the original purpose of mtgox?
1071 2011-06-03 11:43:12 Anime has joined
1072 2011-06-03 11:43:27 <zamgo2> to make profit, I assume
1073 2011-06-03 11:44:05 sethsethseth___ has joined
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1080 2011-06-03 11:51:35 <edcba> jeremias: mtgox
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1084 2011-06-03 12:10:04 Nicksasa is now known as Sleep!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
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1089 2011-06-03 12:16:54 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody.  Did I miss anything while I was gone :-)
1090 2011-06-03 12:17:09 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, hi! :-)
1091 2011-06-03 12:17:18 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, price is at ~$13.8
1092 2011-06-03 12:17:26 <MartianW> Wow, it's gavin!
1093 2011-06-03 12:17:38 fimp has joined
1094 2011-06-03 12:17:44 <BlueMatt> hey gavin is back :)
1095 2011-06-03 12:17:44 <MartianW> UukGoblin, wow, I'm feeling stupid for selling at $4 now.
1096 2011-06-03 12:17:58 <gavinandresen> Yeah, I noticed that.  I completely slept through all of the $11's.  Which is too bad, because 11 is my favorite number.
1097 2011-06-03 12:18:08 <UukGoblin> ;-(
1098 2011-06-03 12:18:44 normanrichards has joined
1099 2011-06-03 12:18:46 <BlueMatt> oh gavin, do you want win/linux builds for git head for rc7/0.3.22
1100 2011-06-03 12:19:11 <uppesnuppe> how many rc's are you planning? ;>
1101 2011-06-03 12:19:22 <gavinandresen> 11 I hope!
1102 2011-06-03 12:19:27 <BlueMatt> well we were planning 6 until yesterday...
1103 2011-06-03 12:19:33 <uppesnuppe> :D
1104 2011-06-03 12:19:43 zamgo2 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1105 2011-06-03 12:20:41 <sipa> welcome back, gavinandresen :)
1106 2011-06-03 12:20:54 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I don't have any use for a win build, and built a git-head bitcoind myself this morning....
1107 2011-06-03 12:21:13 <BlueMatt> ok, fair enough...just wondered if you wanted semi-official ones
1108 2011-06-03 12:21:44 <roconnor> what is the cited number of visa tranactions per second?
1109 2011-06-03 12:21:51 <gavinandresen> Are any high-traffic sites using .22 yet?
1110 2011-06-03 12:22:07 <BlueMatt> well mtgox has been complaining that .21 crashes with segfaults occasionally
1111 2011-06-03 12:22:13 <BlueMatt> whereas .19 doesnt :(
1112 2011-06-03 12:22:22 <gavinandresen> roconnor: See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
1113 2011-06-03 12:22:32 <BlueMatt> dont think he wants to upgrade for that reason...
1114 2011-06-03 12:23:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I don't blame him.   ClearCoin was running a .21 bitcoind, which chose exactly the wrong time to stop responding to RPC requests
1115 2011-06-03 12:23:39 <BlueMatt> lol yea heard about that
1116 2011-06-03 12:24:02 metonymous has quit (Quit: metonymous)
1117 2011-06-03 12:24:11 <gavinandresen> I want to try to get more emphasis on reliability and bug fixing, and less on new features...
1118 2011-06-03 12:24:20 <roconnor> gavinandresen: I see.  At visa number of transaction per second, I couldn't possibly verify the transactions myself  on my laptop.
1119 2011-06-03 12:24:27 <gavinandresen> roconnor: nope
1120 2011-06-03 12:24:36 <BlueMatt> not a bad idea...plus general code cleanup all over the place
1121 2011-06-03 12:24:51 <gavinandresen> roconnor: then again, a laptop in 10 years might be able to handle it...
1122 2011-06-03 12:25:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: and unit tests
1123 2011-06-03 12:25:15 <BlueMatt> that too
1124 2011-06-03 12:25:22 <sipa> it would be great to fix these reported rpc lockups and crashes
1125 2011-06-03 12:25:25 <roconnor> openssl speed ecdsa gives my friend:
1126 2011-06-03 12:25:30 <roconnor> Doing 256 bit verify ecdsa's for 10s: 3268 256 bit ECDSA verify in 9.97s
1127 2011-06-03 12:25:43 <roconnor> that seems 10x slower than the 3msec per verification cited on the wiki
1128 2011-06-03 12:25:50 <roconnor> or maybe my math is wrong
1129 2011-06-03 12:25:50 <sipa> but has anyone been able to reproduce these reliably?
1130 2011-06-03 12:26:00 <roconnor> or maybe that elliptic curve is slow
1131 2011-06-03 12:26:09 <sipa> roconnor: secp256k1?
1132 2011-06-03 12:26:12 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I think some re-architecting of bitcoin internals might be needed to avoid the RPC deadlock issues
1133 2011-06-03 12:26:22 <BlueMatt> totally agree
1134 2011-06-03 12:26:26 <roconnor> sipa: I don't know what curve openssl speed ecdsa is using.
1135 2011-06-03 12:26:28 <BlueMatt> 0.4.5 == rearch
1136 2011-06-03 12:26:30 <BlueMatt> z?
1137 2011-06-03 12:27:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: what do you see making 0.3.23/0.4.0/later versions?
1138 2011-06-03 12:28:32 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1139 2011-06-03 12:28:33 <gribble> 128353
1140 2011-06-03 12:28:35 Alexees2 has joined
1141 2011-06-03 12:28:37 Alexees2 is now known as HAHA231
1142 2011-06-03 12:28:40 HAHA231 has quit (Client Quit)
1143 2011-06-03 12:28:44 * BlueMatt would like to see all the rpc commands call one or two functions and the gui do the same...then we pretty much have libbitcoin
1144 2011-06-03 12:28:53 llandru has joined
1145 2011-06-03 12:29:07 ordex has joined
1146 2011-06-03 12:29:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: that'd be great
1147 2011-06-03 12:29:19 <ordex> how many blocks should I have before starting mining?
1148 2011-06-03 12:29:30 <llandru> anyone running the test network?
1149 2011-06-03 12:29:34 <sipa> rpc and gui code shouldn't be touching any internal datastructures at all
1150 2011-06-03 12:29:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: good questions; I think I agree with jgarzik that we need a 0.3.23 soon to fully implement the new 5-mill default fee
1151 2011-06-03 12:29:58 <BlueMatt> I would think 0.4.0 would be quick enough
1152 2011-06-03 12:30:08 <phantomcircuit> yeah and the connect timeout fee
1153 2011-06-03 12:30:17 <BlueMatt> now that I want to see
1154 2011-06-03 12:30:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: depends how quickly 0.3.22 is adopted - if so, 0.3.23 with new default fee policy
1155 2011-06-03 12:30:29 <gavinandresen> llandru:  darn good question-- anybody know what's up with the test network?  Somebody did a huge block chain re-org that broke the test faucet
1156 2011-06-03 12:30:33 <sipa> and maybe BlueMatt's patch to make it configurable
1157 2011-06-03 12:31:39 <phantomcircuit> so anybody? conenct timeout?
1158 2011-06-03 12:31:51 <sipa> connect timeout fee?
1159 2011-06-03 12:31:55 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1160 2011-06-03 12:32:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, lol no my patch that makes Connect timeout
1161 2011-06-03 12:32:26 <phantomcircuit> actually it needs one change first
1162 2011-06-03 12:32:41 scott` has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1163 2011-06-03 12:33:07 <sipa> wow, we crossed $14 :o
1164 2011-06-03 12:33:16 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
1165 2011-06-03 12:33:26 <BlueMatt> if we do do a 0.3.23 with more than just connect fixes and one-line fee fixes, can we get a 0.4.0 branch as I dont want to see that sit and sit with features that may be great tagged for it...
1166 2011-06-03 12:34:12 Alexees has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1167 2011-06-03 12:34:37 <sipa> i don't think 0.3.23 should be more than the absolutely necessary
1168 2011-06-03 12:34:38 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
1169 2011-06-03 12:34:54 <BlueMatt> hm, out of all the nodes out there, my dnsseed has only been able to find 2441 which accept incoming, and only 2413 >= 0.3.19 on port 8333
1170 2011-06-03 12:34:59 <doublec> have you tried using helgrind to narrow down deadlock issues?
1171 2011-06-03 12:35:12 Eremes has joined
1172 2011-06-03 12:35:15 <TomyBoy3G> where i can get rc verison for win?
1173 2011-06-03 12:35:32 edgarallanpoe has joined
1174 2011-06-03 12:35:32 Eremes is now known as Eremes2
1175 2011-06-03 12:35:40 Eremes2 is now known as Eremes
1176 2011-06-03 12:35:45 <BlueMatt> forum thread/sf
1177 2011-06-03 12:35:51 m00p has joined
1178 2011-06-03 12:35:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I wounder how many of those 2441 will still be there in 24 hours?
1179 2011-06-03 12:35:55 JRWR has quit ()
1180 2011-06-03 12:36:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: there is pretty large turnover
1181 2011-06-03 12:36:16 <BlueMatt> but the total stays pretty constant
1182 2011-06-03 12:36:41 agricocb has joined
1183 2011-06-03 12:37:26 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  I think our current bottleneck is a lack of people really testing and banging on the code, and I fear that a 0.4 branch would just sit, untested, for a very long time.  Then when we eventually got to it, there would be a bunch of old bugs in that new code that were harder to track down and fix.
1184 2011-06-03 12:37:35 <roconnor> I wonder if it would have been better to use RSA signatures instead of elliptic curve signatures:  10x larger signatures for 10x faster verification.
1185 2011-06-03 12:38:02 <davex__> gavinandresen, is there something in the new version that rejects blocks generated by bitcoin nodes that are "too old"
1186 2011-06-03 12:38:05 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: totally agree, but if we just let it sit, half the stuff there will all of a sudden not even apply cleanly and may need serious work
1187 2011-06-03 12:38:20 <gmaxwell> roconnor: 10x more data stored and transfered... doesn't sound like a win. I don't think the difference is actually 10x either, with the curve that bitcoin uses.
1188 2011-06-03 12:38:33 <BlueMatt> does anyone have the resources to create huge dummy load on a bitcoind?
1189 2011-06-03 12:38:57 <gavinandresen> davex__: really old nodes might still be trying to include bad transactions (see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Incidents )
1190 2011-06-03 12:38:59 <BlueMatt> hm, maybe Ill go do that...
1191 2011-06-03 12:39:27 <davex__> gavinandresen, hmm, so .3.20 should have been ok.
1192 2011-06-03 12:39:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: not applying cleaning and requiring some work / a second look  is a good thing....
1193 2011-06-03 12:39:39 quellhorst has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1194 2011-06-03 12:39:40 <gmaxwell> roconnor: there are major performance difference between different ecc curves, I think bitcoin uses one from a class of faster curves.
1195 2011-06-03 12:40:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: You can create a pretty good stress test on a multicore system running two bitcoinds that talk to each other....
1196 2011-06-03 12:40:42 <sipa> i believe i read a post by Hal saying that he wasn't sure whether the speed advantage was actually exploited by openssl
1197 2011-06-03 12:40:53 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  at least, that's how I tracked down the last set of RPC deadlock issues.
1198 2011-06-03 12:40:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: maybe so...I just dont like the idea of some cool stuff sitting around that could be *very* useful for some people
1199 2011-06-03 12:41:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: I believe I read something like that as well
1200 2011-06-03 12:41:22 <BlueMatt> because its a fairly less-used curve
1201 2011-06-03 12:41:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: alright...I suppose Ill go see if I can set something like that up
1202 2011-06-03 12:42:01 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: ping
1203 2011-06-03 12:42:08 <MagicalTux> pong
1204 2011-06-03 12:42:19 * roconnor needs to look into using projective coordinates for his EC operations.
1205 2011-06-03 12:42:32 <BlueMatt> do either of you guys happen to have any clues as to which rpc commands might be causing the lockup
1206 2011-06-03 12:42:38 <BlueMatt> ie what ones do you use on your sites
1207 2011-06-03 12:42:51 <BlueMatt> just send/check balance/check received/getnewaddr?
1208 2011-06-03 12:43:24 <ordex> when should my bitcoind stop downloading blocks?
1209 2011-06-03 12:43:33 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
1210 2011-06-03 12:43:33 <gribble> 128354
1211 2011-06-03 12:43:37 <BlueMatt> when you have that many
1212 2011-06-03 12:44:27 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the current release is basically completely broken for normal users
1213 2011-06-03 12:44:45 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: how so?
1214 2011-06-03 12:45:12 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: (and I assume you mean people who download and run the bitcoin client?)
1215 2011-06-03 12:45:18 <ordex> BlueMatt:thanks
1216 2011-06-03 12:45:34 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: New nodes being nat basically don't come up. Or sometimes take continual restarting to get any connections at all, or may take dozens of hours to get connections…
1217 2011-06-03 12:45:43 <gmaxwell> s/being/behind/
1218 2011-06-03 12:46:02 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, if you dont specify a node via -connect it can take a good hours if not days to get a connection to another node
1219 2011-06-03 12:46:05 * sipa would like to see jgarzik's idea of a extra flag to advertize reachability being implemented
1220 2011-06-03 12:46:05 <gavinandresen> Ah, the connection problems.  Yup, that's a screw-up.
1221 2011-06-03 12:46:18 <phantomcircuit> yeah well i fixed it
1222 2011-06-03 12:46:27 thedrs has joined
1223 2011-06-03 12:46:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11126.msg158368#msg158368
1224 2011-06-03 12:46:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, reachablity would be great.
1225 2011-06-03 12:46:46 sacarlson has joined
1226 2011-06-03 12:47:10 <phantomcircuit> upnp dnsseed and a connect timeout are all completely necessary
1227 2011-06-03 12:47:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: really there are several important things that all need to happen soonish. Connect, seeding improvements, reachablity, upnp....
1228 2011-06-03 12:48:44 <gavinandresen> Those are exactly the sort of reliability improvements I want to concentrate on.  Also more DoS prevention measures (dropping ill-behaving peers) and connection rotation (should prevent all sorts of classes of Sybil attacks)
1229 2011-06-03 12:48:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'll have a look at your patch
1230 2011-06-03 12:49:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: my current issue with that flag: you cant disable it once you have broad casted that you have support for it
1231 2011-06-03 12:49:22 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I guess you missed the discussion about goofy timing attacks too?
1232 2011-06-03 12:49:36 <BlueMatt> as nodes will not remove services from addr.dat, only add to
1233 2011-06-03 12:49:40 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I skimmed it (I was SUPPOSED to be on vacation....)
1234 2011-06-03 12:49:54 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if you simply have access to lots of IPs you can drive a listening target's network time ±70 minutes.
1235 2011-06-03 12:50:01 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: lol, like you can do that...
1236 2011-06-03 12:50:48 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, for connection rotation you want to maintain half and half
1237 2011-06-03 12:50:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: since the gap can be >2h if one is a miner you can make another node ignore that miner's blocks, just creating a split. Though I don't think anyone has actually tried doing this to see if it works.
1238 2011-06-03 12:51:14 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: seems like defining "time way out of whack" as one category if 'ill-behaving peer' might be a good approach to prevent it.  Along with changing your peers regularly.
1239 2011-06-03 12:51:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've been thinking about it as well - assume the whole network upgrade to v0.3.XX which has the extra flag, and you enter the network as new client - you don't advertize yourself as reachable, so no one will try to reach you, right?
1240 2011-06-03 12:51:54 <phantomcircuit> a reachable flag is a bad idea
1241 2011-06-03 12:51:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea pretty much...or you could flip the meaning of the flag, meaning you cant turn it off...
1242 2011-06-03 12:52:03 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea— well the bigger issue there is that it doesn't appear to forget adjustments for peers that have gone away, so the rotation wouldn'tcurrently fixit.
1243 2011-06-03 12:52:08 <BlueMatt> which means you can never turn on "connect to me"
1244 2011-06-03 12:52:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: and the adjustment it clamped, but only to 70 minutes, so the mutal gap can be wide enough to trigger the block check.
1245 2011-06-03 12:53:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: maybe the solution is simply to remove addresses from the database which have been confirmed not to be reachable?
1246 2011-06-03 12:53:05 <BlueMatt> to pull this off either way, you have to carefully consider how flags are handled, as its an easy sybil if you overwrite any given flag, but or'ing them together also doesnt really work...
1247 2011-06-03 12:53:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm currently more worried about day-to-day reliability of bitcoin services than theoretical, difficult-to-pull-off timing attacks.
1248 2011-06-03 12:53:29 XX01XX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1249 2011-06-03 12:53:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: so they won't be passed on either
1250 2011-06-03 12:53:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: maybe...but Im not sure how effective that would be
1251 2011-06-03 12:54:07 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, that timing attack would be trivial if combined with a sybil attack
1252 2011-06-03 12:54:09 <llandru> if anyone is running on the test network, please msg me
1253 2011-06-03 12:54:11 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Quite fair. Well right. Basic reachabliity has problems now, at least for firewalled nodes.
1254 2011-06-03 12:54:14 ordex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1255 2011-06-03 12:54:15 <phantomcircuit> and i already have the code for the sybil
1256 2011-06-03 12:54:24 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I didn't say I'm NOT worried about it....
1257 2011-06-03 12:54:28 <sipa> llandru: i have a reachable node on testnet, but i'm not mining
1258 2011-06-03 12:54:31 <BlueMatt> maybe, not as a solution, but as an addition to the solution, if your node has not connected in x days, it pulls from dnsseed and connects to one of those *first* then gets a more recent node list?
1259 2011-06-03 12:54:34 <gmaxwell> (and the connectivity problems make sybil worse, of course)
1260 2011-06-03 12:54:45 <BlueMatt> imo that + connect timeout would mostly fix it
1261 2011-06-03 12:55:06 <gmaxwell> Makes control of dnsseed more attractive for an attacker, no?
1262 2011-06-03 12:55:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats why we need many dnsseeds :)
1263 2011-06-03 12:55:31 <sipa> phantomcircuit: hmm, where is your patch?
1264 2011-06-03 12:55:31 <phantomcircuit> i should probably change from a connect() loop to connect + select, but that's slightly more complicated logic
1265 2011-06-03 12:55:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, one sec
1266 2011-06-03 12:55:47 <BlueMatt> but we only have one irc server now so dnsseed is a big improvement anyway
1267 2011-06-03 12:56:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: i disagree - i want the bitcoin network to be as self-contained as possible, dnsseed shouldn't be more than an entry point
1268 2011-06-03 12:56:11 <sipa> not a way for finding good peers
1269 2011-06-03 12:56:24 <BlueMatt> also, yes we should remove nodes that we failed to connect to, my question, sipa, is not if we should do it but if it would work as they would still be passed by other nodes and probably end up right back in your db
1270 2011-06-03 12:56:59 <BlueMatt> maybe we always try to reverse connect to nodes which just connected to us and then only put them in db if that worked?
1271 2011-06-03 12:57:12 <sipa> maybe
1272 2011-06-03 12:57:20 <sipa> and if that fails, let them know they are unreachable
1273 2011-06-03 12:57:25 <BlueMatt> does gnutella regrab its http seed stuff if it is failing?
1274 2011-06-03 12:57:26 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  seems like one category of "ill-behaving peers" is peers that send you lots of addresses of nodes that are not connectable
1275 2011-06-03 12:57:31 <sipa> after which they stop announcing their own IP
1276 2011-06-03 12:57:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/nonblocking.patch
1277 2011-06-03 12:57:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: I dont think you can stop announcing your ip
1278 2011-06-03 12:57:56 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if it's failing is different then if X days. If it's failing it should dnsseed again I think.
1279 2011-06-03 12:58:04 <BlueMatt> nodes will still publish their list of "Im connected to"
1280 2011-06-03 12:58:09 <BlueMatt> well old nodes, that is
1281 2011-06-03 12:58:35 simkiss has joined
1282 2011-06-03 12:58:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: right, it does need some serious thinking
1283 2011-06-03 12:58:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but they probably happen at the same time 90% of the time
1284 2011-06-03 12:59:08 Anime has left ()
1285 2011-06-03 12:59:14 ordex has joined
1286 2011-06-03 12:59:15 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, absolutely needs a ton of thought...
1287 2011-06-03 12:59:20 <ordex> wa
1288 2011-06-03 13:00:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, but — saves figuring out a good value for X, and reduces the value of attacks on dnsseed by at least the 10%. :)
1289 2011-06-03 13:00:43 YwY has joined
1290 2011-06-03 13:01:01 <BlueMatt> fair enough
1291 2011-06-03 13:01:56 llandru has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1292 2011-06-03 13:02:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: counter argument is that if only one of the nodes you remember works, then that node can stick you on a fantasy network pretty easily.
1293 2011-06-03 13:02:59 <gmaxwell> (just tells you about his own sybil nodes)
1294 2011-06-03 13:03:38 <BlueMatt> can we do some kind of trust thing for addr.dat, ie rank nodes higher on the connect-to list if youve heard of it from more nodes?
1295 2011-06-03 13:03:59 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
1296 2011-06-03 13:04:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128357 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 666 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 525411.41916702
1297 2011-06-03 13:04:22 TomyBoy3G has quit ()
1298 2011-06-03 13:04:25 <gmaxwell> Subject to sybil attack itself. Might make you less likely to get even _one_ good node?  "The 10,000 clones didn't tell me about you!"
1299 2011-06-03 13:04:34 <ordex> why is my block counter stuck even if I have 6 connesions open?
1300 2011-06-03 13:04:42 <phantomcircuit> a sybil attack against the current network code would be absolutely trivial
1301 2011-06-03 13:04:46 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1302 2011-06-03 13:04:52 <phantomcircuit> seriously who wants to see one? ill do it right now
1303 2011-06-03 13:04:58 sethsethseth____ has joined
1304 2011-06-03 13:05:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is there any authentication on the dnsseed? e.g. if there are N dnsseeders, can I actually tell that I'm getting data from N parties?
1305 2011-06-03 13:06:01 <gmaxwell> (sorry, haven't really had a chance to look at the dnsseed stuff)
1306 2011-06-03 13:06:01 <sipa> phantomcircuit: doesn't compile here
1307 2011-06-03 13:06:07 <BlueMatt> you could, but currently it doesnt, but why is that necessary?
1308 2011-06-03 13:06:14 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what's the error?
1309 2011-06-03 13:06:22 <sipa> is your code windows-only?
1310 2011-06-03 13:06:34 <phantomcircuit> no im running it on gentoo right now
1311 2011-06-03 13:06:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I guess it doesn't. Someone who controls your network well enough to fake your dnsseed requests can just answer all your node connect attempts.
1312 2011-06-03 13:06:40 <sipa> net.cpp: In function ‘bool ConnectSocket(const CAddress&, SOCKET&, int)’:
1313 2011-06-03 13:06:42 <phantomcircuit> lol gtting it to work on windwos took like 4 hours
1314 2011-06-03 13:06:43 <sipa> net.cpp:133: error: ‘WSAEALREADY’ was not declared in this scope
1315 2011-06-03 13:06:45 <sipa> net.cpp:133: error: ‘WSAEINVAL’ was not declared in this scope
1316 2011-06-03 13:06:45 <phantomcircuit> it was a huge pita
1317 2011-06-03 13:06:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep
1318 2011-06-03 13:06:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh i forgot util.h modifications
1319 2011-06-03 13:07:24 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: how big is this patch getting?
1320 2011-06-03 13:07:32 <phantomcircuit> sipa, http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/nonblocking.patch
1321 2011-06-03 13:07:40 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1322 2011-06-03 13:07:40 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's that big
1323 2011-06-03 13:08:36 <phantomcircuit> it could be much smaller
1324 2011-06-03 13:09:08 <gmaxwell> -    devlist = upnpDiscover(2000, multicastif, minissdpdpath, 0);
1325 2011-06-03 13:09:08 <gmaxwell> +    devlist = upnpDiscover(2000, multicastif, minissdpdpath, NULL);
1326 2011-06-03 13:09:14 <gmaxwell> doesn't seem strictly minimal. :)
1327 2011-06-03 13:09:17 <sipa> a separate function for MakeNonBlock() would be nice, i guess
1328 2011-06-03 13:09:35 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1329 2011-06-03 13:10:05 <BlueMatt> can you not add more crap to headers.h, if you need to include something only in that file, please put it in net.h or relevant
1330 2011-06-03 13:10:13 sethsethseth____ has joined
1331 2011-06-03 13:10:24 <BlueMatt> and yea, why did you change the upnp code?
1332 2011-06-03 13:10:35 <phantomcircuit> oh that's just a side effect
1333 2011-06-03 13:10:43 TommyBoy3G has joined
1334 2011-06-03 13:10:59 <BlueMatt> and reapplied sipa's dnsseed patch
1335 2011-06-03 13:11:05 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, also you're reading the patch wrong i dont modify headers.h at all
1336 2011-06-03 13:11:20 <sipa> indeed
1337 2011-06-03 13:11:29 <BlueMatt> oh sorry, thats my bad
1338 2011-06-03 13:11:39 <BlueMatt> but why did you change util.h?
1339 2011-06-03 13:11:49 thedrs has left ()
1340 2011-06-03 13:12:09 <BlueMatt> if you need to define new constants cant you do it in net.h or net.cpp?
1341 2011-06-03 13:12:09 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, definitions of WSAEINPROGRESS etc
1342 2011-06-03 13:12:14 <sipa> i suppose for compatibility with windows
1343 2011-06-03 13:12:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah i could but all the other ones are in util.h
1344 2011-06-03 13:12:29 <phantomcircuit> so i figured it was best to put them in the same place
1345 2011-06-03 13:12:34 <sipa> that looks reasonable to me
1346 2011-06-03 13:12:47 <phantomcircuit> also this is a git diff so sipas patch is included jsut because
1347 2011-06-03 13:13:05 <BlueMatt> but if you already have half of the connect stuff in ifdef's, why define constants, just use the original names?
1348 2011-06-03 13:13:33 <BlueMatt> though I suppose that is better...
1349 2011-06-03 13:13:42 <BlueMatt> nvm
1350 2011-06-03 13:13:59 <phantomcircuit> this patch only has the non blocking parts in ifdefs
1351 2011-06-03 13:14:03 <phantomcircuit> the rest of the code is shared
1352 2011-06-03 13:14:42 Kolky has joined
1353 2011-06-03 13:14:47 torsthaldo_ has joined
1354 2011-06-03 13:14:57 <phantomcircuit> also i wouldn't put it in a function MakeNonBlocking because it sets it back to blocking for compatibility reasons
1355 2011-06-03 13:15:14 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1356 2011-06-03 13:15:46 <BlueMatt> yea...hm, well if there is no better way to do non-blocking than the ugly while loops...
1357 2011-06-03 13:16:04 <phantomcircuit> and actually those headers are unnecessary now
1358 2011-06-03 13:16:16 torsthaldo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1359 2011-06-03 13:16:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, well there is but i didn't want to do it because it's slightly more obscure
1360 2011-06-03 13:16:27 <phantomcircuit> and everybody kept saying to make it simpler
1361 2011-06-03 13:16:30 <BlueMatt> and it is?
1362 2011-06-03 13:16:37 <phantomcircuit> connect/select
1363 2011-06-03 13:16:42 <BlueMatt> ah
1364 2011-06-03 13:16:52 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1365 2011-06-03 13:18:16 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, this was is simpler but i would only do it this way for a single socket
1366 2011-06-03 13:18:31 <sipa> 500x Sleep(1) ?
1367 2011-06-03 13:18:39 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
1368 2011-06-03 13:18:44 <phantomcircuit> the real solution here is to try multiple connections simultaneously and then drop ones to get back to 8
1369 2011-06-03 13:19:00 <phantomcircuit> but well screw that
1370 2011-06-03 13:19:08 <BlueMatt> my problem is just that it will end up calling sleep so many times...so many loop iterations
1371 2011-06-03 13:19:31 <phantomcircuit> it iterates a maximum of 500 times
1372 2011-06-03 13:21:10 <sipa> it does work
1373 2011-06-03 13:21:27 <BlueMatt> its just such a hack...
1374 2011-06-03 13:21:33 <phantomcircuit> http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/nonblocking.patch
1375 2011-06-03 13:21:38 <phantomcircuit> there slightly better
1376 2011-06-03 13:21:53 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, this is why im not super interested in refactoring mainline
1377 2011-06-03 13:22:00 <phantomcircuit> to fix shit you need to use hacks everywhere
1378 2011-06-03 13:22:15 <BlueMatt> then rewrite it proper
1379 2011-06-03 13:22:22 <BlueMatt> ie this connection stuff
1380 2011-06-03 13:22:27 <phantomcircuit> you dont get it
1381 2011-06-03 13:22:28 DukeOfURL has joined
1382 2011-06-03 13:22:36 <gmaxwell> I don't see why a hack is required... use select() instead of sleeping, for example.
1383 2011-06-03 13:22:39 <phantomcircuit> a proper rewrite would be extensive
1384 2011-06-03 13:22:42 <phantomcircuit> and a massive pita
1385 2011-06-03 13:22:51 <gmaxwell> Though, yes, running them in parallel would make a lot more sense.
1386 2011-06-03 13:22:56 <BlueMatt> way less than starting ground-up
1387 2011-06-03 13:23:19 <phantomcircuit> what?
1388 2011-06-03 13:23:43 <phantomcircuit> the entire networking stack could fit into a couple hundred loc with boost::asio
1389 2011-06-03 13:23:56 <phantomcircuit> the serialization of structures is going to be the hardest part
1390 2011-06-03 13:24:22 <BlueMatt> ok then rewrite it to do that
1391 2011-06-03 13:24:32 <BlueMatt> reimplement network from ground up
1392 2011-06-03 13:24:40 <BlueMatt> instead of a whole client
1393 2011-06-03 13:24:57 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1394 2011-06-03 13:24:58 <phantomcircuit> no
1395 2011-06-03 13:24:58 <BlueMatt> you dont lose existing patches/work and you still get all the advantage
1396 2011-06-03 13:24:59 <BlueMatt> s
1397 2011-06-03 13:26:04 <matija> Hi, who can point me to the shortest way tolocalization of client and documentation?
1398 2011-06-03 13:26:25 <BlueMatt> you want what now?
1399 2011-06-03 13:26:30 <matija> I saw a thread in the forum ...
1400 2011-06-03 13:26:49 <phantomcircuit> he wants to help translate the client i believe
1401 2011-06-03 13:26:51 <matija> I can translate the client and the documentation in Slovene.
1402 2011-06-03 13:27:06 <BlueMatt> for the client: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8390.0
1403 2011-06-03 13:27:07 <matija> phantomc., exactly
1404 2011-06-03 13:27:26 ezyang has joined
1405 2011-06-03 13:27:59 <ezyang> I wrote an article on the crypto bitcoin uses, if any devs are around and what to help fact check before a publish...
1406 2011-06-03 13:28:22 <phantomcircuit> ezyang, sure
1407 2011-06-03 13:28:27 <sipa> sure
1408 2011-06-03 13:28:29 <BlueMatt> linkidy link?
1409 2011-06-03 13:28:34 <matija> BlueM., thank you. And for documentation, FAQ, website?
1410 2011-06-03 13:28:51 <ezyang> http://blog.ezyang.com/2011/06/the-cryptography-of-bitcoin/
1411 2011-06-03 13:29:11 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: the part on the client is out-of-date, but the stuff about the website should be roughly right: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=151.0;all
1412 2011-06-03 13:30:03 <sipa> ezyang: cryptopp is only used for mining, i believe
1413 2011-06-03 13:30:23 <BlueMatt> yep
1414 2011-06-03 13:30:31 <phantomcircuit> ezyang, yeah i was about to say
1415 2011-06-03 13:30:32 <forexmasterja> what the hell happened in the past few hours ???? I go to sleep for a few hours and wake up to see $14 ????? !!! Wow
1416 2011-06-03 13:30:34 <BlueMatt> openssl is used for ecdsa and such
1417 2011-06-03 13:30:46 <phantomcircuit> forexmasterja, smartmoney.com
1418 2011-06-03 13:31:22 <sipa> ezyang: openssl is used for normal hashing
1419 2011-06-03 13:31:31 <ezyang> Cool, updated that.
1420 2011-06-03 13:31:51 <BlueMatt> ezyang: the use of secp256k1 is quite non-arbitrary, it was picked for speed as it has the potential for some large improvements in calculations
1421 2011-06-03 13:32:04 <BlueMatt> which could be quite a big deal if bitcoin becomes big
1422 2011-06-03 13:32:41 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, nobody ahs actually implemented those improvements though
1423 2011-06-03 13:32:43 <ezyang> Oh, I do think I remember reading something about that.
1424 2011-06-03 13:32:47 <phantomcircuit> so for the time being it's purely theoretical
1425 2011-06-03 13:32:48 <ezyang> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3238.0
1426 2011-06-03 13:32:55 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes, but it could be done if necessary
1427 2011-06-03 13:33:02 <BlueMatt> that is why it would have been chosen
1428 2011-06-03 13:33:28 <phantomcircuit> ezyang, also you dont seem to make a difference between splitting the block chain and completely reconstructing it
1429 2011-06-03 13:33:33 <phantomcircuit> which are very different things
1430 2011-06-03 13:33:46 <BlueMatt> satoshi was no idiot, otherwise he would have chosen a standard one, he mustve had a reason and afaict that is the only legitimate reason
1431 2011-06-03 13:34:27 <ezyang> phantomcircuit: Ah, is reconstructing it "resolving" the entire thing.
1432 2011-06-03 13:34:36 <sipa> i do believe the choice for secp256k1 was a bit arbitrary
1433 2011-06-03 13:34:58 <ezyang> I /think/ the attack I described was the chain splitting, not reconstruction attack.
1434 2011-06-03 13:35:03 <BlueMatt> I dont think satoshi was near stupid enough for that
1435 2011-06-03 13:35:20 <phantomcircuit> ezyang, reconstructing the entire block chain is requires the same fundamental break as splitting the block chain, but requires doing all of the blocks
1436 2011-06-03 13:35:36 <ezyang> OK, fair enough.
1437 2011-06-03 13:36:26 <ezyang> Wait wait, but that attack won't work
1438 2011-06-03 13:36:31 <ezyang> because the clients have built in known good chains.
1439 2011-06-03 13:36:32 gwelymernan has joined
1440 2011-06-03 13:36:54 Insti has joined
1441 2011-06-03 13:37:04 <BlueMatt> no all they have is if (nHeight == xxxx) hash must be yyyyyyyyyyyy
1442 2011-06-03 13:37:15 <ezyang> oh. Ha.
1443 2011-06-03 13:37:35 <ezyang> OK, reworded.
1444 2011-06-03 13:37:38 <Insti> !seen genjix
1445 2011-06-03 13:38:05 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1446 2011-06-03 13:38:10 <phantomcircuit> Insti, would you like so speek with him?
1447 2011-06-03 13:38:12 <phantomcircuit> speak*
1448 2011-06-03 13:38:18 karnac has joined
1449 2011-06-03 13:38:30 <sipa> ezyang: also, if you're not attacking the block chain in any way, you will need to break both sha256+ripemd160 and ecdsa for single-use-addresses, as you only know ripemd160(sha256(ecdsa_pubkey(X)))==A, and you need to find an X
1450 2011-06-03 13:38:34 <Insti> phantomcircuit yes
1451 2011-06-03 13:39:12 <vegard> why do you have to break sha256+ripemd160? surely it's enough to find X?
1452 2011-06-03 13:39:15 <ezyang> sipa: Not true, I can inject my input at any stage of the hash.
1453 2011-06-03 13:39:21 <vegard> (the public key is part of the address, right?)
1454 2011-06-03 13:39:22 pnicholson has joined
1455 2011-06-03 13:39:38 <ezyang> This requires a pretty ridiculous break in the hashing algorith, though.
1456 2011-06-03 13:39:54 genjix has joined
1457 2011-06-03 13:40:00 <sipa> ezyang: you need to create a valid signature for your transaction, right?
1458 2011-06-03 13:40:18 <ezyang> Hmm, what specific scenario are we talking about here?
1459 2011-06-03 13:40:25 <phantomcircuit> Insti, ^
1460 2011-06-03 13:40:32 <vegard> sipa: nvm. I was wrong.
1461 2011-06-03 13:41:13 <sipa> ezyang: i admit i haven't read all details, so correct me if that's not what you're trying to do - if you want to spend a coin i have, addresses to a single-use address of mine
1462 2011-06-03 13:41:27 <sipa> *addressed
1463 2011-06-03 13:41:36 <ezyang> Oh oh, right, you can't use a replay attack on single use address, that's correct.
1464 2011-06-03 13:42:45 <ezyang> (cuz there's no signature to replay)
1465 2011-06-03 13:42:47 <sipa> if you know the pubkey, you only need to do a preimage attack on the hash-function, contrained to a valid scriptPubKey
1466 2011-06-03 13:42:54 <sipa> wait
1467 2011-06-03 13:42:56 <sipa> scriptSig
1468 2011-06-03 13:43:31 m00p has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1469 2011-06-03 13:43:37 <Insti> thanks phantomcircuit
1470 2011-06-03 13:43:38 <UukGoblin> EFF have taken down their bitcoin donation address too :-(
1471 2011-06-03 13:43:42 m00p has joined
1472 2011-06-03 13:43:46 <ezyang> Anyways, I can't wait to see Bitcoin used for non-monetary uses.
1473 2011-06-03 13:44:17 <ezyang> Though I'm not convinced you can muster up the necessary computational power to protect the protocol if money is not on the table.
1474 2011-06-03 13:45:08 <sipa> ezyang: such as?
1475 2011-06-03 13:45:16 <RAM2012> non-monetary?
1476 2011-06-03 13:45:25 <JFK911> i'm using the first few blocks as an encryption key
1477 2011-06-03 13:45:31 <JFK911> i don't think i'll ever lose this key.
1478 2011-06-03 13:45:32 <ezyang> You can use Bitcoin for voting, etc.
1479 2011-06-03 13:45:58 <RAM2012> anonymous campaign contributions?
1480 2011-06-03 13:48:09 <UukGoblin> ezyang, voting? interesting
1481 2011-06-03 13:48:19 <UukGoblin> I haven't thought of voting yet, how would it work?
1482 2011-06-03 13:48:55 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1483 2011-06-03 13:48:58 <ezyang> We assume that we have a way of distributing voting "tokens" to everyone who is eligible.
1484 2011-06-03 13:49:19 mmoya has joined
1485 2011-06-03 13:49:24 <ezyang> You then transfer your votes to the address you want, and using block explorer the results can be determined.
1486 2011-06-03 13:49:26 <UukGoblin> oh, that's the trickiest bit imho
1487 2011-06-03 13:49:50 <ezyang> Sure.
1488 2011-06-03 13:50:03 pnicholson has quit (Quit: cya later!)
1489 2011-06-03 13:50:16 <ezyang> But in the case of a small community, totally practical.
1490 2011-06-03 13:50:24 <ezyang> I'm not sure how you get anonymization properties.
1491 2011-06-03 13:51:02 <UukGoblin> vote selling would still be possible with such tokens
1492 2011-06-03 13:51:07 <ezyang> Yes.
1493 2011-06-03 13:51:27 <ezyang> But since that can be done socially I don't care.
1494 2011-06-03 13:52:31 <ezyang> Hmm. So if an address is public, how /do/ you anonymize bitcoins sent to it?
1495 2011-06-03 13:52:37 fckStick has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1496 2011-06-03 13:53:19 <ezyang> Maybe this is OT for #bitcoin-dev? Lemme know if it is.
1497 2011-06-03 13:53:31 <UukGoblin> ezyang, cointumblr or some service like that... or just send them to multiple addresses I guess
1498 2011-06-03 13:54:53 <ezyang> Hmm. Then my "voting" protocol may not have the correct anonymizing properties.
1499 2011-06-03 13:56:12 tauri has joined
1500 2011-06-03 13:57:27 <Insti> genjix check your forum PMs
1501 2011-06-03 13:58:49 vikarti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1502 2011-06-03 14:02:09 molecular has joined
1503 2011-06-03 14:02:35 <sipa> phantomcircuit: failures seem to happen after a timeout of +- 50-100 ms here
1504 2011-06-03 14:02:55 <sipa> so maybe it's reasonable to increase the sleeps to something around 20ms
1505 2011-06-03 14:03:10 llandru has joined
1506 2011-06-03 14:03:22 jimss_ is now known as jimss
1507 2011-06-03 14:03:26 zooko has joined
1508 2011-06-03 14:03:41 YwY has joined
1509 2011-06-03 14:03:53 <sipa> also, 500ms is maybe a bit low - on high-latency connections you may need a bit more
1510 2011-06-03 14:04:14 * BlueMatt was thinking something like ~2-5 sec
1511 2011-06-03 14:04:29 <sipa> same here
1512 2011-06-03 14:05:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what?
1513 2011-06-03 14:05:55 sshc has joined
1514 2011-06-03 14:06:12 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the entire problem is that how long it takes for connect to return a failure is entirely arbitrary
1515 2011-06-03 14:06:23 <sipa> of course
1516 2011-06-03 14:06:37 <sipa> but if the sleep time is 20ms
1517 2011-06-03 14:06:49 <sipa> you'll lose on average 10ms time if failure occurs
1518 2011-06-03 14:06:54 helmut has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1519 2011-06-03 14:07:18 <sipa> if failure takes around the order of 50ms, then maybe losing 10ms there is not that much of a problem
1520 2011-06-03 14:08:59 <phantomcircuit> sleeping for 1 ms at a time really isn't an issue at all
1521 2011-06-03 14:09:02 <llandru> sipa: are the last blocks in a generaton the hardest, or should block generation time be the same from beginning to end?
1522 2011-06-03 14:09:03 <phantomcircuit> and it makes the code much clearer
1523 2011-06-03 14:09:23 <sipa> llandru: ?
1524 2011-06-03 14:09:23 <phantomcircuit> llandru, the last blocks in the chain have higher difficulty
1525 2011-06-03 14:09:39 <phantomcircuit> although that is simply because of the way mining has been increasing
1526 2011-06-03 14:10:18 <llandru> sipa: i just generated 50btc on the test network, but it seems to be stuck on the last 118 blocks which are needed before confirmation
1527 2011-06-03 14:10:49 <sipa> llandru: every generation need 120 confirmations
1528 2011-06-03 14:10:54 <sipa> not sure what you mean
1529 2011-06-03 14:11:54 <llandru> sipa: the block counter in the client is stopped at 22608, even thought the client seems to be running at over 800khash/s
1530 2011-06-03 14:12:07 perol has joined
1531 2011-06-03 14:14:09 <BlueMatt> 800khash is not gonna generate blocks very fast
1532 2011-06-03 14:14:19 <BlueMatt> even on testnet
1533 2011-06-03 14:14:32 jav_ has joined
1534 2011-06-03 14:14:44 <cornfeed> wow
1535 2011-06-03 14:14:59 <cornfeed> what point are we at now required to reliably generate blocks?
1536 2011-06-03 14:15:15 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 1000000
1537 2011-06-03 14:15:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 3 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes, and 7 seconds
1538 2011-06-03 14:15:24 <sipa> what do you mean with reliably?
1539 2011-06-03 14:15:27 <llandru> BlueMatt: i misunderstood that the testnet had difficulty that was low so you could generate coins for testing. I generated 50 in under an hour.
1540 2011-06-03 14:15:46 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 800 7
1541 2011-06-03 14:15:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 800 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 7, is 10 hours, 26 minutes, and 20 seconds
1542 2011-06-03 14:15:50 <BlueMatt> llandru: testnet has the same rules only half the diff per hash power
1543 2011-06-03 14:15:53 <sipa> i tihnk you've been very lucky
1544 2011-06-03 14:15:56 <sipa> *think
1545 2011-06-03 14:16:03 <BlueMatt> so more miners join, more diff
1546 2011-06-03 14:16:11 <cornfeed> well when you mine, it is a race of sorts right? thats why there is mining luck?
1547 2011-06-03 14:16:21 <BlueMatt> its a lottery
1548 2011-06-03 14:16:25 <BlueMatt> is the best analogy
1549 2011-06-03 14:16:40 Akinava has quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас)
1550 2011-06-03 14:16:40 <cornfeed> for the same block?
1551 2011-06-03 14:16:43 <sipa> only there are an infinite number of winning tickets
1552 2011-06-03 14:16:57 <BlueMatt> each has is a ticket, and the prob of a ticket being the right one is a given number
1553 2011-06-03 14:16:57 <sipa> and an even larger infinite number of tickets sold :)
1554 2011-06-03 14:17:08 <BlueMatt> and yea, there are a *ton* of winning tickets
1555 2011-06-03 14:17:16 <cornfeed> ok one second
1556 2011-06-03 14:17:27 fckStick has joined
1557 2011-06-03 14:17:30 <cornfeed> the analogy just throws me off, tech speak please
1558 2011-06-03 14:17:39 <BlueMatt> but yea, its a race to see who can first find the winning ticket
1559 2011-06-03 14:17:52 <sipa> every hash you try has a chance of 1/(difficulty*2^32) of being a good one
1560 2011-06-03 14:18:00 <sipa> all independent from eachother
1561 2011-06-03 14:18:05 <cornfeed> are other people trying to hash the same blocks?
1562 2011-06-03 14:18:09 <sipa> no
1563 2011-06-03 14:18:10 <llandru> BlueMatt so what is the best way of running transaction tests with test coins? Do I have to wait two weeks just to test software we are writing?
1564 2011-06-03 14:18:13 <cornfeed> ok
1565 2011-06-03 14:18:20 <sipa> everyone is trying a completely separate hashspace
1566 2011-06-03 14:18:27 <BlueMatt> llandru: testnet-in-a-box
1567 2011-06-03 14:18:29 <sipa> llandru: testnet in a box
1568 2011-06-03 14:18:29 diki has joined
1569 2011-06-03 14:18:36 <cornfeed> so when i get a block and start hashing it, it is mine until i finish or disconnect?
1570 2011-06-03 14:18:53 <BlueMatt> you dont "get" a block
1571 2011-06-03 14:19:06 <BlueMatt> you calculate the hash of the txes you want to include and make a block of that
1572 2011-06-03 14:19:15 <cornfeed> ooooooooohhhhhhhhh
1573 2011-06-03 14:19:19 glassresistor has joined
1574 2011-06-03 14:19:19 glassresistor has quit (Changing host)
1575 2011-06-03 14:19:19 glassresistor has joined
1576 2011-06-03 14:19:28 <llandru> BlueMatt googled it, will try it now, thanks.
1577 2011-06-03 14:19:32 <BlueMatt> the only way someone else would have the same block is if they were putting in the same txes, including the 50 btc gen tx
1578 2011-06-03 14:19:33 <cornfeed> that makes a shit ton more sense
1579 2011-06-03 14:19:35 <BlueMatt> so...a pool
1580 2011-06-03 14:19:48 bk128 has joined
1581 2011-06-03 14:20:04 <cornfeed> so what determines a block's size?
1582 2011-06-03 14:20:05 <diki> bluematt, i have a raw share in my database, i need to convert it back to the valid block it is
1583 2011-06-03 14:20:07 llandru has left ()
1584 2011-06-03 14:20:08 <diki> how to do so?
1585 2011-06-03 14:20:10 <cornfeed> (how many tx are in it)
1586 2011-06-03 14:20:14 <BlueMatt> number of txes in the block
1587 2011-06-03 14:20:50 <BlueMatt> diki: dont tag me, I dont know, nor want to know what kind of crazy stuff you are trying to link together to get your pool working
1588 2011-06-03 14:21:03 <diki> zomg, when did the price go to 13 effing dollar??
1589 2011-06-03 14:21:22 <BlueMatt> this morning?
1590 2011-06-03 14:21:35 <diki> but it was 10 last night
1591 2011-06-03 14:21:44 <asynkritus> this morning in europe, @night in the us
1592 2011-06-03 14:21:48 <BlueMatt> and it was 1 a couple months ago
1593 2011-06-03 14:21:58 <BlueMatt> and 0.01 a year ago
1594 2011-06-03 14:22:25 <BlueMatt> asynkritus: it seems the price always goes up morning in europe and night in the us, when all the euro traders are active
1595 2011-06-03 14:22:25 meagain has joined
1596 2011-06-03 14:22:33 <BlueMatt> then slowly drops through the day
1597 2011-06-03 14:22:41 <meagain> Does anyone have an example in pushpool for a line in the shares table when a block is found?
1598 2011-06-03 14:22:43 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
1599 2011-06-03 14:22:45 <BlueMatt> +/- existing trends
1600 2011-06-03 14:23:12 DontMindMe has joined
1601 2011-06-03 14:23:32 fahadsadah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1602 2011-06-03 14:23:32 <asynkritus> BlueMatt: maybe  europeans have too much playmoney...
1603 2011-06-03 14:23:56 <BlueMatt> or its psychological in that 1:1 in euros is 1:1.whatever in usd
1604 2011-06-03 14:23:59 Sthebig has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1605 2011-06-03 14:24:03 <asynkritus> #bitcoin-market listet some trades at 13 EUR some  minutes ago.
1606 2011-06-03 14:24:13 <meagain> Here is one that found a share, but what do the two null fields look like when a block is found?    | 267 |    0 | ::ffff:192.168.1.246 | abc     | Y          | NULL            | NULL   | 00000001b891bd5defb2a15ce35b16bda73f0f9053de73ca0553cbcf0000165500000000faf92ae43135d1d8e80d50acc77ef61bcc41b1feb22ac44946f46162162d96c94de8d7381a26942146eb5600000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1607 2011-06-03 14:24:14 jimss has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1608 2011-06-03 14:24:15 <asynkritus> just crazy ^^
1609 2011-06-03 14:24:59 <tommygunner> 13€ lol
1610 2011-06-03 14:25:16 <asynkritus> yes. some mixed the currency and the amounts up...
1611 2011-06-03 14:26:19 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
1612 2011-06-03 14:26:20 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":14.3,"low":9.9999,"vol":61272,"buy":13.5,"sell":13.7,"last":13.5}}
1613 2011-06-03 14:26:26 <JFK911> wow
1614 2011-06-03 14:26:53 <diki> that's it, the raw share i was talking about bluematt
1615 2011-06-03 14:27:27 <sipa> phantomcircuit, BlueMatt: with a 5s timeout and 5ms sleeps, i pretty consistently get a git-master client with -nolisten and empty addr.dat to connect within a minute
1616 2011-06-03 14:28:03 <diki> sipa:how do you convert a raw share like the one above back into the winning hash it was?
1617 2011-06-03 14:28:08 <BlueMatt> that seems reasonable
1618 2011-06-03 14:28:29 <jav_> Hey guys, what is your take on Open Transactions? ( https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki )
1619 2011-06-03 14:28:44 <meagain> diki, that share right there, is just a share for the db. it didn't solve a block. diki, you don't have a raw share example when 50 btc are won do you?
1620 2011-06-03 14:28:49 <BlueMatt> jav_: tbh I dont know *that* much about it...care to explain?
1621 2011-06-03 14:28:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, with 500ms timeouts and 1ms sleeps i consistently am connected within about 20 seconds
1622 2011-06-03 14:29:15 <diki> <meagain> diki, tha<- i was talking about one that did solve a block
1623 2011-06-03 14:29:23 <diki> your is just an example
1624 2011-06-03 14:29:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: phantomcircuit what about one with existing addr.dat
1625 2011-06-03 14:29:52 <BlueMatt> bootstrap isnt *too* much of a concern as, hopefully, we can switch to dnsseed by default anyway
1626 2011-06-03 14:30:08 <diki> anyway, what are you trying to achieve meagin?
1627 2011-06-03 14:30:15 <diki> *meagain
1628 2011-06-03 14:30:18 <phantomcircuit> ill do some tests
1629 2011-06-03 14:30:24 <sipa> with existing addr.dat? here instantly
1630 2011-06-03 14:30:27 <jav_> BlueMatt: I don't fully understand it either... but i believe it's among other things an implementation of "Chaumian blinding".. a way for a central mint to create coins and exchange them back while preserving privacy
1631 2011-06-03 14:31:29 <BlueMatt> which is advantageous how?
1632 2011-06-03 14:31:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, I mean an addr.dat that may be a week old or so
1633 2011-06-03 14:31:53 <jav_> BlueMatt: I was exploring existing solutions that might be complementary to Bitcoin... let's say a central mint, that issues coins backed by Bitcoin which could then be used to do low-latency transactions
1634 2011-06-03 14:31:54 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ot is basically just a slightly better token server
1635 2011-06-03 14:32:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's harder to test, but i doubt that it's longer than bootstrapping from scratch
1636 2011-06-03 14:32:13 <phantomcircuit> jav_, that is a real possibility
1637 2011-06-03 14:32:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: you would have a higher percent of nodes be not connectible via addr.dat than via irc Id say
1638 2011-06-03 14:33:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: good point
1639 2011-06-03 14:33:57 dissipate has joined
1640 2011-06-03 14:34:01 <jav_> phantomcircuit: yes, and if you do accept a central mint than you might as well take advantage of all the cryptography that's already out there for those systems... and it seems OT has implemented a lot of that
1641 2011-06-03 14:34:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: but those from irc are there anyway
1642 2011-06-03 14:34:18 <phantomcircuit> jav_, ot is extremely complicated though
1643 2011-06-03 14:34:25 <phantomcircuit> *extremely*
1644 2011-06-03 14:34:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: true, but if we slowly move off of irc and towards dnsseed, unless you want to ping dns again (which you said you didnt) you would need to check addr.dat
1645 2011-06-03 14:35:06 <BlueMatt> plus, are irc nodes prioritized before addr.dat?
1646 2011-06-03 14:35:15 <BlueMatt> (Id assume last_seen is set higher, so yes?)
1647 2011-06-03 14:35:20 <meagain> and is there anything in pushpool that allows me to know what block we are on? does it store that with a solved block or anything or do I need to call that from bitcoind?
1648 2011-06-03 14:35:26 <jav_> phantomcircuit: true, it seems to complicated for it's own good... so maybe there are other, similar but easier systems already existing as open source?
1649 2011-06-03 14:35:47 <phantomcircuit> unlikely
1650 2011-06-03 14:36:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: no, you misunderstood - i don't mind fetching dns again, i just mean you shouldn't want to make dns be a full database of (all) reachable network nodes, the client already does that by itself
1651 2011-06-03 14:36:42 <jav_> phantomcircuit: I found this nice list: http://disattention.com/78/digital-currencies-crypto-finance-and-open-source/
1652 2011-06-03 14:36:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: but you're right, if you have an outdated addr.dat, you'll have a higher percentage of unreachable nodes
1653 2011-06-03 14:37:00 <BlueMatt> whats wrong with making dns a db of all reachable nodes, the client fails at that, and making the client ping every node it know about is a *ton* of effort
1654 2011-06-03 14:37:53 <sipa> just duplicate work
1655 2011-06-03 14:38:14 <BlueMatt> huh?
1656 2011-06-03 14:38:22 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1657 2011-06-03 14:38:26 jimss has joined
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1659 2011-06-03 14:40:19 Lazymeerkat has left ()
1660 2011-06-03 14:40:25 <sipa> BlueMatt: don't worry about it, it's just how i see it
1661 2011-06-03 14:40:57 <sipa> phantomcircuit: doesn't seem to make a difference here, 1ms or 5ms sleeps, 500ms or 5000ms timeouts, always +- a minute before i have a connection
1662 2011-06-03 14:41:19 LightRider has joined
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1664 2011-06-03 14:41:26 <BlueMatt> there are two options for dns: a list of all known, well connected peers or a list of all known up peers.  imo the second is better as known up peers, esp those who have uptime > ~1 day are guaranteed to be very well connected
1665 2011-06-03 14:41:41 <BlueMatt> and that means less strain on static listed nodes
1666 2011-06-03 14:42:09 <BlueMatt> (there was a guy on here a couple days ago complaining that his node was in the static list because it had good uptime, but its on a dial up modem)
1667 2011-06-03 14:42:21 <BlueMatt> and had no bw
1668 2011-06-03 14:42:25 <sipa> damn, i definitely like that patch, phantomcircuit
1669 2011-06-03 14:43:15 <BlueMatt> but yea, phantomcircuit's patch needs to go in, but as he says its a bit hacky...but there is no real way around that atm
1670 2011-06-03 14:43:52 Sthebig has joined
1671 2011-06-03 14:44:27 jimss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1672 2011-06-03 14:44:31 <sipa> it's far from the best way of implementing better connection attemptin, but it's such an easy change for such an improvement
1673 2011-06-03 14:44:32 jimss has joined
1674 2011-06-03 14:44:48 <BlueMatt> yea
1675 2011-06-03 14:45:10 <BlueMatt> now why there isnt a flag for timeout in blocking connections, I dont know
1676 2011-06-03 14:45:28 <sipa> ?
1677 2011-06-03 14:45:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: do you mind me making it into a pull req, after cleaning some things up and getting it conforming to the coding standards?
1678 2011-06-03 14:46:07 <BlueMatt> if there were a timeout flag for blocking connections exposed to the program, you dont need ugly while-loops, just block
1679 2011-06-03 14:46:40 <sipa> yes
1680 2011-06-03 14:47:02 <BlueMatt> my point was, why there isnt such a flag exposed to programs, I dont understand
1681 2011-06-03 14:47:12 genjix has left ()
1682 2011-06-03 14:47:14 fahadsadah has joined
1683 2011-06-03 14:47:22 <sipa> indeed, it's strange
1684 2011-06-03 14:47:52 <coptic> bitcoin millionaires became billionaires today with the price jump
1685 2011-06-03 14:48:16 exw777 has joined
1686 2011-06-03 14:48:19 * BlueMatt wishes he still had all his btc...
1687 2011-06-03 14:48:32 * sipa wishes he kept the BTC he bought at $0.26
1688 2011-06-03 14:48:33 <Eremes> lol
1689 2011-06-03 14:49:02 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
1690 2011-06-03 14:49:02 * Eremes wishes tomorrow the price drops to $5
1691 2011-06-03 14:49:15 <diki> what is the function in bitcoin's source that checks the sent share(in the params array) if it's a good hash?
1692 2011-06-03 14:49:16 <sipa> damn, i'd have made 5000 EUR
1693 2011-06-03 14:49:18 * Blitzboom wishes he woul’ve bought much more at <1$
1694 2011-06-03 14:49:44 jimss_ has joined
1695 2011-06-03 14:49:46 <purpleposeidon> What happens to bitcoins after the 100 years or so and there are no more to generate?
1696 2011-06-03 14:49:47 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1697 2011-06-03 14:49:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: nothing
1698 2011-06-03 14:50:00 <sipa> everything remains the same
1699 2011-06-03 14:50:07 <sipa> only blocks don't give a reward anymore
1700 2011-06-03 14:50:14 jimss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1701 2011-06-03 14:50:26 <sipa> but by then, the rewards will already be a lot smaller than fees anyway
1702 2011-06-03 14:50:28 <Eremes> so at that time there will be no more mining ?
1703 2011-06-03 14:50:34 <sipa> of course there will be
1704 2011-06-03 14:50:39 <sipa> read about transaction fees
1705 2011-06-03 14:50:49 <purpleposeidon> Is it possible to generate blocks without getting rewards then?
1706 2011-06-03 14:50:57 <sipa> yes
1707 2011-06-03 14:50:59 <diki> does this mean that once all the blocks are solved, we have exausted every possible combination that could be done with sha256?
1708 2011-06-03 14:51:01 <Eremes> why would we mine without getting reward anyways ?
1709 2011-06-03 14:51:04 <sipa> even now, if you're stupid
1710 2011-06-03 14:51:23 <purpleposeidon> This would be a trivial thing to do tho?
1711 2011-06-03 14:52:45 <sipa> what is your question, exactly?
1712 2011-06-03 14:53:19 <cosurgi> hmm.. how can I meausre network latency on some connection, ping is enough? or there's something better?
1713 2011-06-03 14:53:52 <BlueMatt> cosurgi: depends on the purpose
1714 2011-06-03 14:54:10 <gmaxwell> purpleposeidon: you can do it today. just don't generate the reward. I strongly encourage you to do this.
1715 2011-06-03 14:54:35 <doublec> gavinandresen: why the strong encouragement?
1716 2011-06-03 14:54:44 <doublec> gmaxwell: oops, you, not gavin
1717 2011-06-03 14:55:02 <gmaxwell> doublec: To reduce the supply of bitcoins not owned by me, of course.
1718 2011-06-03 14:55:10 <doublec> hah
1719 2011-06-03 14:55:29 ezyang has left ()
1720 2011-06-03 14:55:37 <doublec> I thought more altruistic possibilities form you :)
1721 2011-06-03 14:55:53 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1722 2011-06-03 14:56:00 <purpleposeidon> gmaxwell: You mean, instead of a 1/f(difficulty) chance it's a 0.0 chance? :P
1723 2011-06-03 14:56:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im using 1ms sleeps simply because it makes the counter tick more obvious, that is all
1724 2011-06-03 14:56:05 <gmaxwell> doublec: well, usually. But, — ask a silly question, get the advice you should have expected. :)
1725 2011-06-03 14:56:26 <doublec> hehe
1726 2011-06-03 14:56:47 <cosurgi> BlueMatt: moving sql databse to another server.
1727 2011-06-03 14:56:50 <gmaxwell> purpleposeidon: You sound confused. The block reward doesn't have anything to do with the difficulty.
1728 2011-06-03 14:57:30 <BlueMatt> cosurgi: that is probably disk-io limited, or, if you are doing it over the internet bw limited, not latency limited
1729 2011-06-03 14:57:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the difficulty is how hard it is to find a block, the reward is how many new coins it introduces
1730 2011-06-03 14:57:49 <sipa> eh
1731 2011-06-03 14:57:55 <sipa> purpleposeidon: the difficulty is how hard it is to find a block, the reward is how many new coins it introduces
1732 2011-06-03 14:57:58 <purpleposeidon> gmaxwell: You sound misinformed about me being confused.
1733 2011-06-03 14:58:02 <gmaxwell> purpleposeidon: In bitcoin miners generate blocks by solving a hard proof-of-work problem. The blocks confirm transactions. One special transaction they're allowed to confirm is one giving them a reward (the generation of new coins). You don't actually have to take all of the reward, however.
1734 2011-06-03 14:58:41 <gmaxwell> (and people have mined blocks providing less than the full reward— in multiple different ways)
1735 2011-06-03 14:58:52 fckStick has joined
1736 2011-06-03 14:59:39 <gmaxwell> Mostly due to screwups, but there has been at least one instantance of what I'd call art. ;)
1737 2011-06-03 14:59:52 <gmaxwell> If you don't take the full reward than the number of total bitcoins is forever reduced.
1738 2011-06-03 14:59:53 <diki> provide example
1739 2011-06-03 15:01:25 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5
1740 2011-06-03 15:01:29 <da2ce7> checkout: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11665.0
1741 2011-06-03 15:02:21 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: it means you can not trivially undo the theft of your wallet by throwing out 100 addresses and moving your money to a new one, though.
1742 2011-06-03 15:02:44 <eamon> does the bitcoin client come in other languages?
1743 2011-06-03 15:03:00 <eamon> My friend says he can only get English
1744 2011-06-03 15:03:06 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, of course... there is always going to be use of traditional wallets.
1745 2011-06-03 15:03:36 <BlueMatt> eamon: what language is your friend trying to load?
1746 2011-06-03 15:04:24 <BlueMatt> eamon: list of languages supported: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/locale
1747 2011-06-03 15:04:30 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: more standard strengthening like script might be good ... most users aren't miners. A strengthening problem I could tolerate on my desktop would be trivial on a system with 50 gpus.
1748 2011-06-03 15:04:34 <eamon> Thanks BlueMatt
1749 2011-06-03 15:05:02 Teslah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1750 2011-06-03 15:05:12 perol has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1751 2011-06-03 15:05:15 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: so.. e.g. if you used this system gmaxwell-prime (the evil version) would totally take a common word list and throw his gpus at it.
1752 2011-06-03 15:05:23 Teslah has joined
1753 2011-06-03 15:05:36 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1754 2011-06-03 15:06:51 <luke-jr> eamon: Spesmilo is open to more languages and cultures than the original client, if you want to try that
1755 2011-06-03 15:07:06 <eamon> thanks luke-jr
1756 2011-06-03 15:07:25 <da2ce7> yes, ofcourse... no strengthing script will be perfect... I just proposed the sha256 one as a good as we already use it as a strengthing script.
1757 2011-06-03 15:07:31 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: though other than my concern about trivial passwords and the potential insufficient strengthening with attackers 1000x faster thanthe user I do like the idea :)
1758 2011-06-03 15:07:44 coptic has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1759 2011-06-03 15:07:47 <sipa> da2ce7: i would indeed suggest a more standard password strengthening
1760 2011-06-03 15:08:09 jandd has joined
1761 2011-06-03 15:08:13 <luke-jr> eamon: and if per chance Spesmilo doesn't support a language, I can assist anyone in adding a translation ☺
1762 2011-06-03 15:08:25 <da2ce7> dose a standard strengthing support a checksum also?
1763 2011-06-03 15:08:36 <eamon> ok ty luke
1764 2011-06-03 15:08:44 <BlueMatt> lol luke-jr, you realize spesmilo has 4 translations, one of which being british english
1765 2011-06-03 15:08:50 <BlueMatt> bitcoin has way more
1766 2011-06-03 15:08:57 <luke-jr> wxbitcoin*
1767 2011-06-03 15:09:10 <jandd> I implemented a small Python client for bitcoind's RPC interface that only needs plain Python >= 2.6. You can get it from https://gitorious.org/bitcoinclient if you are interested
1768 2011-06-03 15:09:16 <BlueMatt> eamon: luke-jr was really referring to the fact that mainline bitcoin doesnt support his beloved tonal to his liking...
1769 2011-06-03 15:09:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
1770 2011-06-03 15:09:44 <phantomcircuit> LET THE TONAL WARS BEGIN
1771 2011-06-03 15:09:57 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: you could provide one, of course.  Not a shortcut, but you could also do that. E.g. by combining your scheme with a gpu-harder more common strenghtening.
1772 2011-06-03 15:10:33 <eamon> I don't know what tonal is and if it's something to do with programming then it doesn't matter to me
1773 2011-06-03 15:10:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, I was referring to the fact that wxbitcoin would not even accept patches to add minority languages/cultures like Esperanto and Tonal
1774 2011-06-03 15:10:44 <BlueMatt> its a different number system
1775 2011-06-03 15:10:46 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, the goal was so that you could go to ANY bitcoin client an just type your password and a nounce in and get your coins.
1776 2011-06-03 15:11:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: mainline bitcoin does have an esperanto translation in the repo
1777 2011-06-03 15:11:08 <BlueMatt> its only your tonal stuff that isnt in there
1778 2011-06-03 15:11:11 <da2ce7> so wallets will be perfectly transportable between computers.
1779 2011-06-03 15:11:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so you're just biased against Tonal
1780 2011-06-03 15:11:19 <luke-jr> lame
1781 2011-06-03 15:11:26 <BlueMatt> no, Im biased against *features* that are used by one person
1782 2011-06-03 15:11:35 <eamon> did you invent a number system luke-jr? That's pretty leet.
1783 2011-06-03 15:11:36 <luke-jr> they're used by 0 people
1784 2011-06-03 15:11:38 <BlueMatt> s/*features*/"features/
1785 2011-06-03 15:11:40 <luke-jr> because you don't support it
1786 2011-06-03 15:11:45 <luke-jr> eamon: nope, it's ancient
1787 2011-06-03 15:11:54 <BlueMatt> and if we did add it, it would be used by 1
1788 2011-06-03 15:11:59 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: yes. And? thats not broken by e.g. using a 4 seconds of scrypt and then your scheme with a shortcut.
1789 2011-06-03 15:12:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you don't know that.
1790 2011-06-03 15:12:05 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1791 2011-06-03 15:12:08 <BlueMatt> eamon: its hex with different characters
1792 2011-06-03 15:12:09 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: what happens when there is no nonce that solves it?
1793 2011-06-03 15:12:34 <luke-jr> eamon: BlueMatt isn't giving it credit. it's older than hex, and a lot more than what hex has
1794 2011-06-03 15:12:38 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, there will always be a nounce... it just may be bigger number than the current nounce.
1795 2011-06-03 15:12:45 <gmaxwell> oh right, k. point.
1796 2011-06-03 15:12:47 <da2ce7> *nounce overflow.
1797 2011-06-03 15:12:55 <luke-jr> do you guys mean nonce?
1798 2011-06-03 15:12:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: if you can find just a couple other people who would even get close to using hex with characters that make it unreadable to most, then maybe people would consider putting it in client
1799 2011-06-03 15:12:57 <eamon> I don't use hex. Or tonal. How did we start talking about this?
1800 2011-06-03 15:13:03 <BlueMatt> but atm only *you* would ever use it
1801 2011-06-03 15:13:15 <BlueMatt> eamon: because luke is obsessed with it
1802 2011-06-03 15:13:25 <da2ce7> the other thing... it means that the uses who remember their nounce dont' need to do any of the password strengthing.
1803 2011-06-03 15:13:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nonsense, you'd all just troll them out
1804 2011-06-03 15:13:35 <sipa> please, luke-jr
1805 2011-06-03 15:13:44 <da2ce7> with traditional password strengthing, you need to do it 'every time'
1806 2011-06-03 15:13:49 <BlueMatt> nonesense, you just cant find any
1807 2011-06-03 15:13:52 <gmaxwell> so, right, I mean if you swap sha256 in this with e.g. scrypt it would work just the same and wouldn't give as big an advantage to an attacker with many gpus vs a desktop system.
1808 2011-06-03 15:13:53 <eamon> this is funny
1809 2011-06-03 15:13:57 <da2ce7> this way we can amke it much harder.
1810 2011-06-03 15:14:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nobody interested in using Bitcoin, sure
1811 2011-06-03 15:14:09 <BlueMatt> and that is what matters
1812 2011-06-03 15:14:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because it doesn't really provide them any benefit over USD at this time
1813 2011-06-03 15:14:20 <BlueMatt> if they wont use bitcoin to begin with...
1814 2011-06-03 15:14:45 <phantomcircuit> sure they are just yesterday i bought a bunch of... nvm
1815 2011-06-03 15:15:15 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: right but you can do x=strengthen(password,diff=hard)  then y=strengthen(x+nonce,diff=easy) and use y.
1816 2011-06-03 15:15:55 <gmaxwell> where strengthen is a hard function that narrows the gap between cpus and special hardware.
1817 2011-06-03 15:16:27 <da2ce7> yeah... but what strengthing thing shortens down to a short nounce?
1818 2011-06-03 15:16:34 <da2ce7> *function?
1819 2011-06-03 15:16:40 <vegard> da2ce7: *nonce
1820 2011-06-03 15:17:06 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: any pseudorandom permutation can be used in place of sha256.
1821 2011-06-03 15:17:17 Ramen has joined
1822 2011-06-03 15:17:39 <da2ce7> we have sha256, sha512... we could make... sha16384 ...
1823 2011-06-03 15:17:41 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: http://www.tarsnap.com/scrypt/scrypt.pdf  < also, see the figures later in this paper on search costs.
1824 2011-06-03 15:17:47 <da2ce7> with really long keys.
1825 2011-06-03 15:17:48 AnatolV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1826 2011-06-03 15:18:21 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: the random sha-foo functions are not ideal strengthing, because they allow enormous speedup from specialized equipment (fpga, gpu, etc).
1827 2011-06-03 15:18:22 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1828 2011-06-03 15:18:50 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, we could make them so wide that they dont' get much speedup... I guess?
1829 2011-06-03 15:19:05 <da2ce7> aka... lots of silicon?
1830 2011-06-03 15:19:13 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: its harder than that, but the authors of scrypt attacked this problem.
1831 2011-06-03 15:19:24 GarrettB has joined
1832 2011-06-03 15:19:24 GarrettB has quit (Changing host)
1833 2011-06-03 15:19:24 GarrettB has joined
1834 2011-06-03 15:19:36 <da2ce7> has it been impmented in code, and reliable?
1835 2011-06-03 15:19:52 <da2ce7> this means that we can use a much shorter nounce... that is better also.
1836 2011-06-03 15:19:56 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, sipa, BlueMatt, tcatm: up!
1837 2011-06-03 15:19:59 <jgarzik> how's the release looking?
1838 2011-06-03 15:20:01 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: Sure.
1839 2011-06-03 15:20:18 <tcatm> jgarzik: I think I just found a major keypool bug in git head...
1840 2011-06-03 15:20:25 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: http://www.tarsnap.com/scrypt/scrypt-1.1.6.tgz (the package does some extra crap too)
1841 2011-06-03 15:20:28 Kurtov has joined
1842 2011-06-03 15:20:32 <jgarzik> fun...
1843 2011-06-03 15:20:52 <tcatm> I created a new wallet (git head build) and it only created on address, no keypool.
1844 2011-06-03 15:20:59 <tcatm> one*
1845 2011-06-03 15:21:02 <da2ce7> can you tune it for a certan speed?
1846 2011-06-03 15:21:17 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: of course.
1847 2011-06-03 15:21:32 <sipa> tcatm: that's a known problem, no?
1848 2011-06-03 15:21:43 <da2ce7> hmmm... should do some research... tho this is quickly getting out of my depth.
1849 2011-06-03 15:21:45 <sanity> anyone know where I can get per-minute historical ticker data for MtGox?  I need several weeks worth (at least)
1850 2011-06-03 15:21:57 <sipa> sanity: i have that data
1851 2011-06-03 15:22:01 <tcatm> sipa: is it?
1852 2011-06-03 15:22:08 <sipa> tcatm: at least, i knew about it
1853 2011-06-03 15:22:10 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: so here is a killer problem.
1854 2011-06-03 15:22:21 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: people are sheep. They'll generate collisions accidentally!
1855 2011-06-03 15:22:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I'm still cleaning up, but am planning on running git head on ClearCoin and the Faucet, then reviewing all the changes
1856 2011-06-03 15:22:28 <da2ce7> lol
1857 2011-06-03 15:22:38 <tcatm> sipa: ok :)
1858 2011-06-03 15:22:42 <da2ce7> gmaxwell that will create lots of lul's.
1859 2011-06-03 15:22:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: great
1860 2011-06-03 15:22:54 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: no really, go look at any of the big password disclosures, the entropy is very low…
1861 2011-06-03 15:23:04 <sanity> sipa: would you mind sharing it?
1862 2011-06-03 15:23:12 <sipa> sanity: it's quite a lot of data
1863 2011-06-03 15:23:22 <sanity> sipa: more the better :-)
1864 2011-06-03 15:23:28 <da2ce7> hmmm... that sucks... I guess we need to put a big fat warning....
1865 2011-06-03 15:23:32 <tcatm> sanity: is price/volume enough?
1866 2011-06-03 15:23:47 <da2ce7> it is a good feature for peopel who know how to pick a strong password.
1867 2011-06-03 15:24:01 <sanity> tcatm: ideally i'd like everything returned by the API call
1868 2011-06-03 15:24:10 <sanity> tcatm: ie. buy sell last volume
1869 2011-06-03 15:24:16 perol has joined
1870 2011-06-03 15:24:18 <sanity> tcatm: and time, obviously
1871 2011-06-03 15:24:22 <sipa> sanity: oh sorry, don't have that data
1872 2011-06-03 15:24:24 <tcatm> sanity: bitcoincharts.com/t/trades.csv?symbol=mtgoxUSD&start=0 that's the trades
1873 2011-06-03 15:24:29 <sipa> only bids/asks
1874 2011-06-03 15:24:32 <upb> hmm
1875 2011-06-03 15:24:41 <upb> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Incidents The second exploited another bug in the transaction handling code and allowed an attacker to spend coins that they did not own
1876 2011-06-03 15:24:42 <sanity> sipa: ok, thanks anyway
1877 2011-06-03 15:24:50 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: well, thats very few people really. You could help by providing a seperate madatory field for people's names, which is just concatenated with the passwod. And have a high minimum length.
1878 2011-06-03 15:24:51 <upb> is the patch for that in git somehwer e?
1879 2011-06-03 15:24:58 <tcatm> I have 10s orderbook snapshots for the last few month.
1880 2011-06-03 15:25:31 <da2ce7> yeah... we could provide a few feilds, all that are optional.
1881 2011-06-03 15:25:54 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: and having a built in password quality check the refuses crap passwords. (e.g. using a bloom filter from an enormous dictionary or something)
1882 2011-06-03 15:25:57 <da2ce7> it should be a multi-lined text box.
1883 2011-06-03 15:26:22 <sanity> tcatm: thank you
1884 2011-06-03 15:26:28 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1885 2011-06-03 15:26:33 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: well everyone has a name (or a pseudonym). And they know their name. So it's the kind of thing you could make mandatory to boost entropy a bit.
1886 2011-06-03 15:26:34 <da2ce7> yep... but lets get a standard version out asap
1887 2011-06-03 15:26:51 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, or just 'account name'
1888 2011-06-03 15:26:53 brooss_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1889 2011-06-03 15:26:55 <da2ce7> LOL
1890 2011-06-03 15:27:09 brooss_ has joined
1891 2011-06-03 15:27:10 <da2ce7> that way bitcoin can tell you what ballance they are from.
1892 2011-06-03 15:27:18 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: so one interesting thing is that people appear to choose account names from the same space they choose passwords.
1893 2011-06-03 15:27:20 <da2ce7> and it would be natural.
1894 2011-06-03 15:27:30 <sanity> tcatm: are the columns in that file documented anywhere?
1895 2011-06-03 15:27:34 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: e.g. the gawker account names are the passwords for many _other_ gawker accounts.
1896 2011-06-03 15:27:38 <jav_> alright, I wrote down my thoughts on combining Bitcoin with Open Transactions or a similar system here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11671.0
1897 2011-06-03 15:27:48 <tcatm> sanity: http://bitcoincharts.com/about/markets-api/
1898 2011-06-03 15:28:00 <da2ce7> hmmm...
1899 2011-06-03 15:28:06 <sanity> tcatm: thank you!
1900 2011-06-03 15:28:19 <da2ce7> just make a big text box first... we can add securty later...
1901 2011-06-03 15:28:42 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: not really, because if someone uses an insecure password at first then they'll lose access on newer clients that secure it.
1902 2011-06-03 15:28:42 <da2ce7> I've been thinkign that this is the perfect thing to put inside a bit-bill.
1903 2011-06-03 15:28:50 <da2ce7> no need to deal with messy private keys.
1904 2011-06-03 15:29:20 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: well, the key to this is a private key.. an infinite sequence of them in fact. :)
1905 2011-06-03 15:29:48 <da2ce7> lol I guess.
1906 2011-06-03 15:30:31 <zooko> Hiya sanity. :-)
1907 2011-06-03 15:30:32 <tcatm> sipa: do you know if anyone is working on a fix for keypool problem?
1908 2011-06-03 15:30:35 <da2ce7> well anyway... I'm looking for a developer to kick this off... I'm willing to pay 60USD/h but needs to be very professional.
1909 2011-06-03 15:31:08 <vegard> upb: the Incidents page is nice :D
1910 2011-06-03 15:31:29 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, what are you looking for?
1911 2011-06-03 15:31:54 <da2ce7> pro c++ dev to implment: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11665.0
1912 2011-06-03 15:32:02 lizthegrey has joined
1913 2011-06-03 15:32:09 <da2ce7> but needs to be good a cypto and stuff also
1914 2011-06-03 15:32:21 * doublec stops using gmaxwell as his password
1915 2011-06-03 15:32:35 <sipa> tcatm: not sure, maybe BlueMatt's wallet encryption stuff changes it
1916 2011-06-03 15:32:50 <tcatm> sipa: mhm it should be fixed ASAP
1917 2011-06-03 15:33:15 <mtrlt> da2ce7: what if people start using shitty passwords :p
1918 2011-06-03 15:33:25 <mtrlt> da2ce7: then anyone can guess a shitty password and use their money
1919 2011-06-03 15:33:25 <gmaxwell> Is this the "it doesn't generate the pool until after you use the first address" issue?
1920 2011-06-03 15:33:42 <sipa> yes
1921 2011-06-03 15:33:44 <jgarzik> it also generates keypool upon some RPC'ing
1922 2011-06-03 15:33:47 <jgarzik> you don't have to use it
1923 2011-06-03 15:34:21 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: yea, I pointed this out above and suggested some weak improvements...  make them provide some additional structured data (account name), and test the passwords... just to increase the entropy.
1924 2011-06-03 15:34:28 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, what you propose suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the way ecdsa works
1925 2011-06-03 15:34:34 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: still probably not a lot.
1926 2011-06-03 15:34:41 <da2ce7> mtrlt, we have a bit shitty password warning system, with a 'password quality' meeter. and a BIG FAT WARNING.
1927 2011-06-03 15:34:45 <upb> vegard: yeah i'd like to see the patch for that issue to fidn what it was about exactly :P
1928 2011-06-03 15:34:49 <da2ce7> phantomcircuit, why?
1929 2011-06-03 15:35:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: narf? you generate keys determinstically from a strong seed.
1930 2011-06-03 15:35:15 <vegard> upb: great, if you do, remember to update the wiki
1931 2011-06-03 15:35:17 <gmaxwell> er rather you can.
1932 2011-06-03 15:35:23 <sipa> ECDSA does not have anything to do with it
1933 2011-06-03 15:35:31 <tcatm> I offer 50 BTC for a pull request that fixes the keypool bug.
1934 2011-06-03 15:35:33 <sipa> it's just about where you get the random data to generate keys wih from
1935 2011-06-03 15:35:53 <sipa> tcatm: i think it's rather easy to fix
1936 2011-06-03 15:36:02 jimss_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1937 2011-06-03 15:36:13 <tcatm> sipa: even better :)
1938 2011-06-03 15:36:26 fahadsadah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1939 2011-06-03 15:36:27 <tcatm> it's a serious bug
1940 2011-06-03 15:36:31 <jav_> BlueMatt: with your "Better Fee UI" patch, if you use the option "fOverrideTransactionFee", does this also override fees for "dust spam"? transactions that a smaller than 0.01 BTC or what the threshold is these days?
1941 2011-06-03 15:36:41 fpgaminer has joined
1942 2011-06-03 15:36:47 <sipa> jav_: it overrides everything
1943 2011-06-03 15:36:49 Sthebig has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1944 2011-06-03 15:37:07 <lizthegrey> am I missing anything, or does the mainline bitcoin software have no unit or conformance tests?
1945 2011-06-03 15:37:12 <jav_> sipa: excellent, thx
1946 2011-06-03 15:37:14 <jgarzik> lizthegrey: correct
1947 2011-06-03 15:37:32 <Theo`> lizthegrey: good programmers do not make errors and thus do not need any unit tests
1948 2011-06-03 15:37:53 <sipa> unfortunately, bugs do happen, and we definitely need tests
1949 2011-06-03 15:37:56 <lizthegrey> jgarzik: okay, that sounds like the first place that I should start then. I'd rather know just from running conformance tests that a new bitcoin client I write is functioning rather than hoping to expose bugs by using the test blockchain.
1950 2011-06-03 15:38:03 <jgarzik> tcatm: serious implications, yes, but few people are getting hit by this
1951 2011-06-03 15:38:10 perol has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1952 2011-06-03 15:38:13 <jgarzik> tcatm: I'd say the connection timeout issue was far more serious for 0.3.22/.32
1953 2011-06-03 15:38:15 <jgarzik> .23
1954 2011-06-03 15:38:20 <lizthegrey> as we say in SRE, hope is not a strategy :)
1955 2011-06-03 15:38:33 <diki> explain what is this keypool bug
1956 2011-06-03 15:38:34 <tcatm> jgarzik: true, but this bug can cause serious loss of bitcoins...
1957 2011-06-03 15:38:53 <sipa> jgarzik: would you consider connect timeout for 0.3.22?
1958 2011-06-03 15:38:59 <tcatm> diki: if you create a new wallet and encrypt it before doing any transactions it won't have a keypool
1959 2011-06-03 15:39:15 <jgarzik> tcatm: if you're doing all sorts of crazy wallet swapping, sure
1960 2011-06-03 15:39:37 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1961 2011-06-03 15:39:38 <tcatm> We should get .22 out as is.
1962 2011-06-03 15:40:00 <jgarzik> sipa: I'd rather push out .22 as is, and get these fixes into .23 ASAP
1963 2011-06-03 15:40:03 karnac has joined
1964 2011-06-03 15:40:12 <jgarzik> up to gavinandresen though
1965 2011-06-03 15:40:25 <sipa> jgarzik: if 0.3.23 is planned for not more than a few days after 0.3.22, sure
1966 2011-06-03 15:40:42 <sipa> well, maybe a bit more
1967 2011-06-03 15:41:09 <tcatm> can't we make a .22.1 to fix bugs?
1968 2011-06-03 15:41:24 <vegard> uh, what, 50 btc for filling the pool before any transaction takes place?
1969 2011-06-03 15:41:52 <jaromil> :'X
1970 2011-06-03 15:42:01 <tcatm> vegard: if it's a short pull requests that all devs agree to merge just after .22 is released, yes
1971 2011-06-03 15:42:02 Mononofu has joined
1972 2011-06-03 15:42:22 <vegard> but surely any dev can fix that in 5 minutes?
1973 2011-06-03 15:42:42 <jaromil> yes, and the maintanance power game is touching its limit here
1974 2011-06-03 15:42:53 <jaromil> guys, you are not experienced enough to do this. i'm sry.
1975 2011-06-03 15:43:03 * zooko laughs
1976 2011-06-03 15:43:22 <jaromil> i guess someone had to say it. luv.
1977 2011-06-03 15:43:43 <jaromil> "who bitchslap the bitchslappers?"
1978 2011-06-03 15:44:50 <BlueMatt> tcatm: wallet crypto fixes it
1979 2011-06-03 15:45:14 <tcatm> BlueMatt: when will it be merged?
1980 2011-06-03 15:45:38 <vegard> jaromil: uh, what? I meant any of the bitcoin devs.
1981 2011-06-03 15:45:39 <BlueMatt> (on first load you have to specify a password anyway so it goes ahead and keypools then)
1982 2011-06-03 15:45:42 <BlueMatt> tcatm: 0.4.0
1983 2011-06-03 15:45:58 <BlueMatt> (but copying that part shouldnt be *too* hard
1984 2011-06-03 15:46:31 <jaromil> 0.4.0 codename "eldorado"
1985 2011-06-03 15:47:47 <BlueMatt> its all written, just needs to be merged ;)
1986 2011-06-03 15:47:55 <BlueMatt> though i think I should rebase onto walletclass first...
1987 2011-06-03 15:47:56 <GarrettB> Encrypted wallets?
1988 2011-06-03 15:48:08 <BlueMatt> yea
1989 2011-06-03 15:49:01 <jaromil> vegard: i have 2 pending pull requests (which might be closed now for retailiation since i'm voicing some frustrations here) and following the devs trying to contribute since almost a month. i just saw lots of resistance and an attitude of gaining the "op" "core-dev" position by denial of entry. this is sensful for a code in production, but OTOH the same devs alowed their own mistakes to slip into the code multiple time
1990 2011-06-03 15:49:09 devrandom has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1991 2011-06-03 15:49:35 devrandom has joined
1992 2011-06-03 15:49:38 <vegard> aha
1993 2011-06-03 15:49:42 <gmaxwell> jaromil: merge entitlement much?
1994 2011-06-03 15:49:57 <diki>  <jaromil> 0.4.0 codename "eldorado"<- isn't it spelled "el dorado"?
1995 2011-06-03 15:50:09 <jaromil> diki: right
1996 2011-06-03 15:50:17 Tritonio has joined
1997 2011-06-03 15:50:34 <jav_> could someone please label issue #185 as a bug? you need to have special status for the project on github to do that, right?
1998 2011-06-03 15:50:51 <eamon> Google will make their own bitcoin system "Google money", billions of people will use it and Bitcoin will be forgotten.
1999 2011-06-03 15:51:10 <BlueMatt> jaromil: autotools will be pulled, and I have voiced disagreement with the assuan pull which you have yet to give a direct response to
2000 2011-06-03 15:51:31 <BlueMatt> dont take it personally, I have 5 pull requests which arent merged (and shouldnt be atm)
2001 2011-06-03 15:52:02 <BlueMatt> though I do tend to agree that Id like to see a bit more rapid development on a dev tree
2002 2011-06-03 15:52:18 <jgarzik> tcatm: trying to stay away from W.X.Y.Z releases, so a 48-hours-after-.22 release would be 0.3.23
2003 2011-06-03 15:52:37 <sipa> phantomcircuit: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c7b03de98bbae701e3398c2df37b8af12348349d
2004 2011-06-03 15:53:24 <luke-jr> jgarzik: just make it 3.0 when there's nothing to change
2005 2011-06-03 15:53:32 <GarrettB> eamon: if they do so, I'd be thrilled
2006 2011-06-03 15:53:35 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i'm not taking anything personal, hope you don't, at least i think you guys can be trusted, trying to do good
2007 2011-06-03 15:53:36 <jgarzik> luke-jr: heh
2008 2011-06-03 15:53:37 <GarrettB> assuming it was essentially the same thing
2009 2011-06-03 15:54:07 <lizthegrey> eamon: I highly doubt that. Google is bound by US laws regarding 'know your customer' etc.
2010 2011-06-03 15:54:14 <luke-jr> someone should submit a bugfix to Linux 3.0, breaking the userland APIs/ABIs
2011 2011-06-03 15:54:18 <BlueMatt> jaromil: well I feel comments like "which might be closed now for retailiation since i'm voicing some frustrations here" are unfounded and, frankly, quite insulting
2012 2011-06-03 15:54:18 <lizthegrey> would an alternate blockchain where you had to provide your driver's license to google take off?
2013 2011-06-03 15:54:22 <luke-jr> since a major version change like that is supposed to imply breakage
2014 2011-06-03 15:54:43 <jaromil> BlueMatt: you are right that can be personal, apologies
2015 2011-06-03 15:54:56 <jaromil> yet, i don't know you and those pull are pending so long yet they are ready
2016 2011-06-03 15:55:13 <jaromil> that pull req
2017 2011-06-03 15:55:41 <BlueMatt> autotools, not so sure if its ready, it works for me, but afaik me and you are the only ones who have tested it on our system...the assuan thing is another issue
2018 2011-06-03 15:55:52 <luke-jr> jaromil: I'd be happy to see a fork ;)
2019 2011-06-03 15:56:08 <sipa> autotools is a big change, and i think everyone agrees that it *must* go in
2020 2011-06-03 15:56:18 <jaromil> re: assuan - it should be closed since i need to work on it more, but i will do it only if people wants it. meanwhile i'm getting more and more interested in my freecoin fork and its usage in some new projects
2021 2011-06-03 15:56:46 <jaromil> luke-jr: just basing it, its called freecoin https://github.com/dyne/freecoin
2022 2011-06-03 15:56:53 <GarrettB> sipa: what is autotools
2023 2011-06-03 15:57:02 <jaromil> it starts off sacarlson's fork
2024 2011-06-03 15:57:23 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, i stand correcting ec keys are just a random number
2025 2011-06-03 15:57:30 <BlueMatt> freecoin has hardly any useful changes, just rpc converted to strings which should be done in some setting in mainline, though mainline has to have backward compat
2026 2011-06-03 15:57:35 Diablo-D3 has joined
2027 2011-06-03 15:57:47 <jaromil> and some of genjix work which i'm struggling to keep back compat with bitcoin protocol
2028 2011-06-03 15:57:50 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, ill do it for a grand
2029 2011-06-03 15:58:08 <UukGoblin> ;;seen genjix
2030 2011-06-03 15:58:08 <jaromil> BlueMatt: it also has, most importantly, sacarlson fork
2031 2011-06-03 15:58:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: strings for numbers is retarded
2032 2011-06-03 15:58:13 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <genjix> lol verack is totally useless
2033 2011-06-03 15:58:14 <BlueMatt> that genjix stuff is ok, but Id like to see a much better protocol discussion wrt to that (I havent personally looked at the code)
2034 2011-06-03 15:58:18 <jaromil> luke-jr: no
2035 2011-06-03 15:58:19 <da2ce7> hmm... 80 btc.
2036 2011-06-03 15:58:29 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well not strings, but ints instead of float/double/whatever
2037 2011-06-03 15:58:30 <luke-jr> jaromil: genjix's string crap is broken by design and would make a fork worse
2038 2011-06-03 15:58:38 <jaromil> luke-jr: http://blog.programmableweb.com/2010/10/19/the-twitter-id-shuffle-text-vs-numbers/
2039 2011-06-03 15:58:41 <jaromil> read that
2040 2011-06-03 15:58:43 <BlueMatt> jaromil: what is in the sacarlson fork?
2041 2011-06-03 15:58:51 <jaromil> then we'll talk
2042 2011-06-03 15:58:52 <sipa> alternate chain stuff, i believe
2043 2011-06-03 15:58:57 <jaromil> history is good to study
2044 2011-06-03 15:59:06 <BlueMatt> oh, well that isnt stuff for mainline bitcoin, just for fork projects
2045 2011-06-03 15:59:07 <da2ce7> ok send me a pgp email... and we can make a formal contract... but you need to send me: A, some evedence that you can code.
2046 2011-06-03 15:59:11 <BlueMatt> (which are cool, but just not for mainline)
2047 2011-06-03 15:59:28 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i'm interested in it working on mainline too
2048 2011-06-03 15:59:31 <luke-jr> jaromil: that's a workaround to the limitations of ECMAScript that doesn't apply to Bitcoin
2049 2011-06-03 15:59:31 <phantomcircuit> hey guys can i code?
2050 2011-06-03 15:59:40 <jaromil> since mainline represents the best testcase
2051 2011-06-03 15:59:45 <jaromil> i mean main net
2052 2011-06-03 16:00:05 <BlueMatt> jaromil: why would that go into mainline? it is something that is, by definition, a fork
2053 2011-06-03 16:00:11 <BlueMatt> feature creep here
2054 2011-06-03 16:00:15 <jaromil> anyway i'm unsure about this fork
2055 2011-06-03 16:00:18 <BlueMatt> way feature creep
2056 2011-06-03 16:00:32 <BlueMatt> if you are running your own chain it is, by definition, a fork of bitcoin
2057 2011-06-03 16:00:40 <jaromil> because of its utility into a project or not
2058 2011-06-03 16:00:44 <jaromil> i'm not doing it for nothing
2059 2011-06-03 16:00:44 <BlueMatt> whether its whatevercoin or not
2060 2011-06-03 16:00:47 <MasterChief> heh will someone pay me a BTC if i say a new idea i though of to fund websites without advertising
2061 2011-06-03 16:00:57 <BlueMatt> no, Im not saying its not useful, by any means
2062 2011-06-03 16:01:06 <BlueMatt> Im just saying it doesnt belong in bitcoin, it belongs in a fork
2063 2011-06-03 16:01:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, two things, first the comment about 500 ms timeout should be removed, second is Sleep(5) really necessary?
2064 2011-06-03 16:01:17 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2065 2011-06-03 16:01:18 <jaromil> BlueMatt: if you have a .conf file
2066 2011-06-03 16:01:24 <jaromil> for bitcoin
2067 2011-06-03 16:01:28 citiz3n has joined
2068 2011-06-03 16:01:29 <jaromil> you run it on bitcoin main net
2069 2011-06-03 16:01:40 <jaromil> that's the sense of it.
2070 2011-06-03 16:01:45 <tcatm> I think a got a good fix for the keypool problem... :)
2071 2011-06-03 16:01:49 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, what email?
2072 2011-06-03 16:02:02 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, you probably want to pm me that btw
2073 2011-06-03 16:02:05 <da2ce7> ah... : http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php
2074 2011-06-03 16:02:09 <BlueMatt> and then we get idiots with typos making new networks while peered with bitcoin clients
2075 2011-06-03 16:02:13 <BlueMatt> which just causes problems
2076 2011-06-03 16:02:22 <BlueMatt> tcatm: you mean mine or did you just code a new one?
2077 2011-06-03 16:02:26 <tcatm> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VL4Z7qsT
2078 2011-06-03 16:02:29 <jaromil> .conf files can be keysigned...
2079 2011-06-03 16:02:38 <BlueMatt> which is even more feature creep
2080 2011-06-03 16:02:45 <jaromil> and anyway, you should not be afraid of people running rogue clients
2081 2011-06-03 16:02:49 <BlueMatt> tcatm: just makes load *that* much slower
2082 2011-06-03 16:02:56 <BlueMatt> dont put it in LoadWallet
2083 2011-06-03 16:02:58 <jaromil> rather than make the protocol capable of handling them
2084 2011-06-03 16:03:02 <BlueMatt> means first start is laggy as hell
2085 2011-06-03 16:03:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: 1) right 2) needs discussion, maybe - i just don't like 1000 wakeups/s while connecting, but that's maybe just me
2086 2011-06-03 16:03:19 <luke-jr> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/3077f4b06d7cdb9434019696b4e1dcb6daddde4331ca3749bdd599d50912f569
2087 2011-06-03 16:03:23 devrandom1 has joined
2088 2011-06-03 16:03:29 <tcatm> BlueMatt: first start is slow anyway because of blockchain download
2089 2011-06-03 16:03:32 <sipa> jaromil: i like the idea of putting all chain configuration somewhere centralized in the source code
2090 2011-06-03 16:03:39 <sipa> jaromil: that's good design
2091 2011-06-03 16:03:43 <BlueMatt> jaromil: the protocol is capable, that doesnt mean you should go around making excess load
2092 2011-06-03 16:03:46 Titeuf_87 has joined
2093 2011-06-03 16:03:58 <BlueMatt> tcoppi: but LoadWallet happens before gui shows up, which imo is unacceptable
2094 2011-06-03 16:03:58 <sipa> jaromil: allowing it to be configured at will - no
2095 2011-06-03 16:04:13 <BlueMatt> tcatm: ^
2096 2011-06-03 16:04:14 <tcatm> some kind of UI feedback would be great, though. lik "Preparing wallet.... xx%"
2097 2011-06-03 16:04:23 <jaromil> BlueMatt: there is nothing that a coder "one shouldn't do" on the internet, c'mon
2098 2011-06-03 16:04:42 <jaromil> k then start organizing your own police guys :)
2099 2011-06-03 16:04:44 fahadsadah has joined
2100 2011-06-03 16:04:45 <BlueMatt> jaromil: no, Im not saying that, Im saying keep idiots from hurting themselves, also KISS
2101 2011-06-03 16:04:59 <jaromil> and arrest kiddoz learning the stuff just because they are too smart and curious
2102 2011-06-03 16:05:10 <BlueMatt> tcatm: I agree, but until then I would like to see keypool gen in a thread at startup (like wallet crypter does)
2103 2011-06-03 16:05:11 <tcatm> BlueMatt: if we create the keypool later the user might have already closed the client without the keypool in his wallet.dat
2104 2011-06-03 16:05:19 jimss has joined
2105 2011-06-03 16:05:25 <sipa> jaromil: come on
2106 2011-06-03 16:05:43 <sipa> jaromil: nobody has a problem with people experimenting, that's how we all learned to program
2107 2011-06-03 16:05:53 <jaromil> sipa: i'm sorry i'm studying history of governance at school i might be too dramatic on that
2108 2011-06-03 16:05:56 <gmaxwell> tcatm: create the file as blab.dat and rename to wallet.dat only after the pool is in place.
2109 2011-06-03 16:06:08 exw777 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2110 2011-06-03 16:06:11 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I just tried it. client on empty datadir started in 2..3 seconds
2111 2011-06-03 16:06:13 <BlueMatt> tcatm: it takes maybe 5 seconds after the gui shows up for keypool gen to finish
2112 2011-06-03 16:06:27 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry no Im confused
2113 2011-06-03 16:06:35 <BlueMatt> in mine it gens, then encrypts so it takes longer
2114 2011-06-03 16:06:35 <sipa> jaromil: but there is a difference between even making it easy to configure by editing the source code, and making it look like you're intended to be able to configure the chain
2115 2011-06-03 16:06:36 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2116 2011-06-03 16:06:42 <jaromil> people will experiment and if things go bonker *they'll like it*, do it again and laugh at you saying NO
2117 2011-06-03 16:06:45 <BlueMatt> takes maybe 5-10 seconds
2118 2011-06-03 16:06:53 <BlueMatt> which is too much, but 2-3, I suppose is ok
2119 2011-06-03 16:06:56 <jaromil> and actually people will love them for doing that
2120 2011-06-03 16:07:09 <jaromil> IMHO
2121 2011-06-03 16:07:18 <gmaxwell> tcatm: so if the file is only moved once it's ready to be backed up then that should prevent foot-gun even if the keygen isn't finished yet.
2122 2011-06-03 16:07:43 <BlueMatt> jaromil: you have spent too much time high in your life ;P
2123 2011-06-03 16:07:49 <tcatm> I don't think even 5..10s delay on first start a big problem
2124 2011-06-03 16:08:00 <UukGoblin> it's kinda annoying
2125 2011-06-03 16:08:02 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i'm simply from the "no security through obscurity" "church"
2126 2011-06-03 16:08:05 <sipa> a few seconds delay on first startup isn't a problem, imho
2127 2011-06-03 16:08:06 <UukGoblin> bitcoind also takes a while to shut down
2128 2011-06-03 16:08:13 <BlueMatt> tcatm: well that was on my desktop, on an old laptop it could take a significant amount of time
2129 2011-06-03 16:08:23 Optimo has joined
2130 2011-06-03 16:08:23 <BlueMatt> jaromil: that has nothing to do with this
2131 2011-06-03 16:08:26 <sipa> jaromil: the source code it out there, everyone can look and change
2132 2011-06-03 16:08:32 <sipa> jaromil: and i encourage them
2133 2011-06-03 16:08:41 <Optimo> are there any persons working on more robust ways to get teh client app initially connected?
2134 2011-06-03 16:08:55 <sipa> and as i said, considering the specific thing about making chains configurable: yes, that should be centralized in the source code
2135 2011-06-03 16:08:56 <BlueMatt> jaromil: its not about security, its about KISS, user sanity, user experience, and how much time we have to waste answering user questions
2136 2011-06-03 16:08:57 <UukGoblin> tbh, imho what's needed is a big splash screen saying "please wait while the clients downloads the blocks", and a progress bar
2137 2011-06-03 16:08:57 <Optimo> there's some issues with the irc avenue, and -noirc doesn't get me very far eitehr
2138 2011-06-03 16:09:05 <UukGoblin> s/clients/client/
2139 2011-06-03 16:09:10 <BlueMatt> Optimo: yes, very much so
2140 2011-06-03 16:09:12 <tcatm> UukGoblin: agreed!
2141 2011-06-03 16:09:19 <sipa> jaromil: but i don't think we should encourage people specifically to start their own chains
2142 2011-06-03 16:09:21 <Optimo> I heard it's a timeout problem
2143 2011-06-03 16:09:38 <tcatm> UukGoblin: maybe even add an input box to the user could enter IPs ofer bootstrap nodes
2144 2011-06-03 16:09:43 <Optimo> the debug.log gives teh impression that it's quite confused
2145 2011-06-03 16:09:49 <UukGoblin> tcatm, yup!
2146 2011-06-03 16:09:50 <BlueMatt> Optimo: that is a solution which fixes it
2147 2011-06-03 16:10:02 <BlueMatt> or, I should say, that is part of the problem
2148 2011-06-03 16:10:05 <BlueMatt> the largest part
2149 2011-06-03 16:10:17 <jaromil> sipa: i don't need encouragement on that :)
2150 2011-06-03 16:10:20 <Optimo> is there some reason the client can't use the addresses that were good from just last night?
2151 2011-06-03 16:10:36 <jaromil> will just take some time to understand if that is really useful for a project or not
2152 2011-06-03 16:10:38 <Optimo> connections
2153 2011-06-03 16:10:59 <jaromil> certainly i'm not doing it just for fun or for demonstrating its possible, we all know it is
2154 2011-06-03 16:11:02 jimss has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2155 2011-06-03 16:11:09 <BlueMatt> Optimo: it does, but there is a ton of turnover
2156 2011-06-03 16:11:15 <BlueMatt> it was valid last night, but not now
2157 2011-06-03 16:11:19 <Optimo> mmhm
2158 2011-06-03 16:11:26 jimss has joined
2159 2011-06-03 16:11:29 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but if you want to do a pull req for non-blocking connect, please go ahead - i prefer your name on it
2160 2011-06-03 16:11:39 <MasterChief> my idea?
2161 2011-06-03 16:11:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, sure
2162 2011-06-03 16:11:49 <Optimo> I hear there is a ton of turnover in the lfnet room...so it's over busy trying to hand out connections or something...
2163 2011-06-03 16:11:57 <Optimo> unconectable people mucking it up
2164 2011-06-03 16:12:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: you know you can git commit --author="..."?
2165 2011-06-03 16:12:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes
2166 2011-06-03 16:12:27 <BlueMatt> and wait, are we commiting this now, or can we please get 0.3.22 out the door first?
2167 2011-06-03 16:12:35 <sipa> no no, we're not committing anything now
2168 2011-06-03 16:13:06 <Optimo> it's good to know that is a concern ;)
2169 2011-06-03 16:13:32 <Optimo> how did the irc initiation come to be the standard?
2170 2011-06-03 16:13:45 <jgarzik> So what's the list for 0.3.23?   1. fix connect issues
2171 2011-06-03 16:13:47 <BlueMatt> because satoshi decided it worked?
2172 2011-06-03 16:13:52 <BlueMatt> thats it
2173 2011-06-03 16:13:55 <Optimo> k
2174 2011-06-03 16:13:55 <BlueMatt> imo
2175 2011-06-03 16:13:56 amiller_ has joined
2176 2011-06-03 16:13:58 <Optimo> just curious ;)
2177 2011-06-03 16:14:13 <BlueMatt> I want to get 0.3.23 out the door asap so we can move onto real things like 0.4.0
2178 2011-06-03 16:14:21 <jgarzik> just that one fix?
2179 2011-06-03 16:14:23 DukeOfURL has joined
2180 2011-06-03 16:14:25 <BlueMatt> imo
2181 2011-06-03 16:14:35 <phantomcircuit> ah hell i have other stuff commited to this branch
2182 2011-06-03 16:14:36 <phantomcircuit> lame
2183 2011-06-03 16:14:40 <BlueMatt> could do fee stuff, but I want to move quick
2184 2011-06-03 16:14:53 <Optimo> I think it would be cool if you could have extra columns for entering notes... and have that metadata stored in another file sep. from wallet
2185 2011-06-03 16:14:54 <sipa> jgarzik: at least bluematt's ui fee stuff
2186 2011-06-03 16:14:58 <BlueMatt> please no
2187 2011-06-03 16:15:06 * BlueMatt wants to see that in 0.4.0
2188 2011-06-03 16:15:14 <BlueMatt> (because he wants to see 0.4.0)
2189 2011-06-03 16:15:21 <jgarzik> heh
2190 2011-06-03 16:15:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: ?
2191 2011-06-03 16:15:30 <sipa> just the UI fix
2192 2011-06-03 16:15:49 <sipa> oh wait, nvm
2193 2011-06-03 16:16:08 <sipa> i forgot that implies the configurable fee schedule
2194 2011-06-03 16:16:12 <tcatm> I made a pull request (293) for keypool-fix
2195 2011-06-03 16:16:18 <UukGoblin> configurable fee schedule!? YAAY! :-D
2196 2011-06-03 16:16:23 <BlueMatt> Im not saying uifix isnt important, quite the opposite, but I think so is wx2.8 + wallet crypto
2197 2011-06-03 16:16:52 <vegard> is there a development mailing list?
2198 2011-06-03 16:16:57 <BlueMatt> no
2199 2011-06-03 16:17:00 <BlueMatt> you are on it :)
2200 2011-06-03 16:17:10 <vegard> won't there be one either?
2201 2011-06-03 16:17:43 <BlueMatt> meh, we can, but there are some who disagreed when it was brought up
2202 2011-06-03 16:17:48 <BlueMatt> personally, I dont care, but whatever
2203 2011-06-03 16:17:52 <vegard> mailing lists seem good for patch discussion
2204 2011-06-03 16:18:07 <BlueMatt> irc/github works fine imo
2205 2011-06-03 16:18:48 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2206 2011-06-03 16:19:16 exw777 has joined
2207 2011-06-03 16:19:23 <jaromil> actually, i am surprised of how good github works
2208 2011-06-03 16:19:29 <Optimo> I'm very interested in contributing ideas
2209 2011-06-03 16:19:36 <BlueMatt> though github bugs need serious updating
2210 2011-06-03 16:19:37 <Optimo> is there a schedule for talking about 0.40?
2211 2011-06-03 16:19:41 <BlueMatt> they dont have any features
2212 2011-06-03 16:20:18 <jgarzik> Optimo: "as soon as we get these damn bugs out of the way"
2213 2011-06-03 16:20:23 <jgarzik> a bunch of stuff is piled up for 0.4
2214 2011-06-03 16:20:34 <BlueMatt> hence why I want to move onto it asap
2215 2011-06-03 16:20:35 <sipa> jgarzik: well, ok, maybe 0.3.23 should just be "fix the connect delay problem"
2216 2011-06-03 16:20:37 <jgarzik> and the pile grows daily :)
2217 2011-06-03 16:20:54 <Optimo> I'll just keep idling for now ;)
2218 2011-06-03 16:21:07 <Optimo> no rush we have all the time inthe world, laddy
2219 2011-06-03 16:21:10 <jgarzik> sipa: some people are pushing for dnsseed by default
2220 2011-06-03 16:21:21 <BlueMatt> personally, I dont care if we even throw all the rc stuff of 0.3.22 out the window and put in connect delay and move on...but that is not a good precedent to set
2221 2011-06-03 16:21:23 Fabianius has joined
2222 2011-06-03 16:21:23 <Optimo> laddie?
2223 2011-06-03 16:21:26 <Optimo> laddiebuck
2224 2011-06-03 16:21:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I am, over irc, but Im not sure about in 0.3.23
2225 2011-06-03 16:21:41 <sipa> i don't mind dnsseed by default, but wasn't there some sybil-attack-fear about doing dns lookups by default?
2226 2011-06-03 16:22:00 <BlueMatt> no different than irc
2227 2011-06-03 16:22:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm doubtful that connect fix alone is sufficient to fix the bringup problems.
2228 2011-06-03 16:22:09 <BlueMatt> but right now we have 2 dnsseeds, Id like to see more
2229 2011-06-03 16:22:23 <jgarzik> sipa: I think that was somebody confused... assuming someone evil controlled the DNS seeds?
2230 2011-06-03 16:22:28 <gmaxwell> strictly better than IRC in so far as if you control the user's DNS you also control irc.
2231 2011-06-03 16:22:47 <sipa> jgarzik: it's no different than not doing dns lookups for addnode and connect
2232 2011-06-03 16:22:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no, the bitcoin client uses hardcoded IPs
2233 2011-06-03 16:23:09 <vegard> the code is a mess :(
2234 2011-06-03 16:23:13 <jgarzik> sipa: yep, I agree
2235 2011-06-03 16:23:19 <Optimo> can the irc-side broadcast info like total blocks to the client ? can the client know total blocks early-on? this wouldn't even need to be super time-accurate
2236 2011-06-03 16:23:21 <jgarzik> anyway, lunch time
2237 2011-06-03 16:23:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh… er, what happens if the irc network renumbers some hosts?
2238 2011-06-03 16:23:30 agent-x has joined
2239 2011-06-03 16:23:37 KingMartin has joined
2240 2011-06-03 16:23:42 <sipa> jgarzik: also, if 0.4.0 takes a while to prepare, maybe a 0.3.24 may be useful that changes the default fee to 5 millies
2241 2011-06-03 16:23:45 <gmaxwell> Optimo: there are 999999 blocks now!
2242 2011-06-03 16:23:56 <ordex> my bitcoind daemon is crashing with segfault each time I ask for getwork
2243 2011-06-03 16:24:02 <sipa> ordex: what?
2244 2011-06-03 16:24:09 <sipa> ordex: reproducibly?
2245 2011-06-03 16:24:17 <sipa> which version?
2246 2011-06-03 16:24:21 <ordex> always after it finished to download the blocks
2247 2011-06-03 16:24:49 <ordex> I tried 0.3.21 and now I'm tring 0.3.22-rc5
2248 2011-06-03 16:24:55 <ordex> and I have the same issue
2249 2011-06-03 16:24:56 <sipa> don't use rc5
2250 2011-06-03 16:25:07 <sipa> which OS?
2251 2011-06-03 16:25:10 <ordex> but even with 0.3.21 I has the same problem
2252 2011-06-03 16:25:11 <ordex> Linux
2253 2011-06-03 16:25:20 <ordex> should I try the git version?
2254 2011-06-03 16:25:21 <BlueMatt> phew I thought it was a regression
2255 2011-06-03 16:25:21 <jaromil> oh BTW 17:55  <sipa> jaromil: i like the idea of putting all chain configuration somewhere centralized in the  source code
2256 2011-06-03 16:25:24 <sipa> self-compiled or binary?
2257 2011-06-03 16:25:41 <jaromil> sipa: i'm considering .conf files included at compile time, in fact, since i see the good design there too
2258 2011-06-03 16:25:48 <gmaxwell> crash it while running in valgrind --db-attach or gdb and get a backtrace?
2259 2011-06-03 16:26:10 <jaromil> yet it can all be optional
2260 2011-06-03 16:26:16 caedes has joined
2261 2011-06-03 16:26:17 caedes has quit (Changing host)
2262 2011-06-03 16:26:17 caedes has joined
2263 2011-06-03 16:26:20 <Optimo> could bitcoin tap into Tor somehow to get connections? (I am tor ignorant)
2264 2011-06-03 16:26:39 <gmaxwell> Optimo: bitcoin can use tor, if you're running tor.
2265 2011-06-03 16:26:42 <UukGoblin> Optimo, I think it can, I think I saw some Tor node addresses
2266 2011-06-03 16:26:45 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2267 2011-06-03 16:26:49 <ordex> sipa: self-compiled I use gentoo
2268 2011-06-03 16:27:01 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2269 2011-06-03 16:27:05 <sipa> ordex: ok, can you run in gdb?
2270 2011-06-03 16:27:06 BlueMatt has joined
2271 2011-06-03 16:27:08 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2272 2011-06-03 16:27:08 BlueMatt has joined
2273 2011-06-03 16:27:08 <ordex> ok
2274 2011-06-03 16:27:12 <ordex> let me try
2275 2011-06-03 16:27:20 davex__ has joined
2276 2011-06-03 16:27:28 <ordex> just compiling the git version now :p
2277 2011-06-03 16:27:35 <Optimo> if there was a client that could utilize tor maybe it could get connected to teh swarm quicker hmm
2278 2011-06-03 16:27:44 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
2279 2011-06-03 16:27:49 <gmaxwell> Optimo: ... no.
2280 2011-06-03 16:28:07 <gmaxwell> Optimo: the client can already use tor, but that wouldn't make anything faster.
2281 2011-06-03 16:28:11 BlueMatt has joined
2282 2011-06-03 16:28:11 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2283 2011-06-03 16:28:11 BlueMatt has joined
2284 2011-06-03 16:28:28 meagain has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2285 2011-06-03 16:28:35 <Optimo> gmaxwell, my primary reason for bringing this up as a better way to get initally connected than irc
2286 2011-06-03 16:28:38 <Optimo> I'm noobish
2287 2011-06-03 16:28:46 meagain has joined
2288 2011-06-03 16:29:03 <gmaxwell> Optimo: IRC itself isn't the source of initial delays, but there is dnsseed as an alternative.
2289 2011-06-03 16:29:37 <Optimo> do you know about the delay? is it a bottleneck in that lfnet room?
2290 2011-06-03 16:29:56 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, the initial connect problem doesn't have anything to do with irc at all
2291 2011-06-03 16:29:59 <Optimo> could I figure this out myself looking at bitcoin source ;p
2292 2011-06-03 16:30:14 <phantomcircuit> although it doesn't help
2293 2011-06-03 16:30:17 Teslah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2294 2011-06-03 16:30:20 <gmaxwell> Optimo: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11126.msg158368
2295 2011-06-03 16:30:23 <Optimo> please enlighten me
2296 2011-06-03 16:30:24 <Optimo> thanks
2297 2011-06-03 16:30:35 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
2298 2011-06-03 16:30:39 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, are you on windows?
2299 2011-06-03 16:30:52 BlueMatt has joined
2300 2011-06-03 16:30:52 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2301 2011-06-03 16:30:52 BlueMatt has joined
2302 2011-06-03 16:30:54 <Optimo> I'm on both windows and mac
2303 2011-06-03 16:31:00 <Optimo> windows seems to work better...
2304 2011-06-03 16:31:04 <Optimo> but I might have imagined
2305 2011-06-03 16:31:29 <gmaxwell> it might just be luck, or differences in the timeout behavior.
2306 2011-06-03 16:31:30 <phantomcircuit> well
2307 2011-06-03 16:31:31 <sacarlson> Optimo: bottleneck for me is mostly on the first run of bitcoin were it needs to download the entire block chain.
2308 2011-06-03 16:31:32 <Optimo> I haven't noticed that port range forwarding has helped at all
2309 2011-06-03 16:31:41 <Optimo> sacarlson, I mean before that
2310 2011-06-03 16:31:42 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/bitcoin-windows.zip
2311 2011-06-03 16:31:45 <Optimo> like in that forum link^
2312 2011-06-03 16:31:54 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, that's an experimental windows build that will connect almost immediately
2313 2011-06-03 16:32:16 <sacarlson> Optimo: before the chain is downloaded you can't do any transactions
2314 2011-06-03 16:32:18 <phantomcircuit> and i have a x86_64 linux build as well
2315 2011-06-03 16:32:25 <Optimo> and I guess this forum thread would clue me into why that can be almost immediate..
2316 2011-06-03 16:32:32 <Optimo> sacarlson I know that.
2317 2011-06-03 16:32:46 <Optimo> once the client gets connected I have no problem waiting for blocks
2318 2011-06-03 16:32:49 <ordex> why even if I run bitcoind in this way: bitcoind --conf /etc/bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
2319 2011-06-03 16:33:05 <ordex> it always ask for a file in /root/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf ?
2320 2011-06-03 16:33:15 <sacarlson> Optimo: so I keep a backup copy of the chain on one of my local servers to quicken the start
2321 2011-06-03 16:33:20 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2322 2011-06-03 16:33:25 exw777 has left ()
2323 2011-06-03 16:33:39 <gmaxwell> er. don't run bitcoin as root
2324 2011-06-03 16:33:44 <gmaxwell> freeking gentoo users.
2325 2011-06-03 16:33:45 <Optimo> sacarlson, again that's not the delay that is a bother as am starting the client each morning
2326 2011-06-03 16:33:54 dvide has joined
2327 2011-06-03 16:34:03 <ordex> gmaxwell: even running it as user
2328 2011-06-03 16:34:05 <ordex> is the same
2329 2011-06-03 16:34:05 <phantomcircuit> ordex, create a user for bitcoin
2330 2011-06-03 16:34:06 <meagain> optimo, if you're on a debian install exit out of sudo
2331 2011-06-03 16:34:20 <ordex> phantomcircuit: I have one, but I want to run it as the current user
2332 2011-06-03 16:34:24 <phantomcircuit> ordex, and it's -conf not --conf
2333 2011-06-03 16:34:42 <Optimo> the debug.log makes it clear that there is an issue getting somewhere... I understand it to that point
2334 2011-06-03 16:34:46 <Optimo> gonna read this thread now
2335 2011-06-03 16:34:47 <ordex> ah
2336 2011-06-03 16:35:13 <Optimo> and I mean, it gets into the irc room and just loops joins/timeouts?
2337 2011-06-03 16:35:29 <agent-x> anyone know how bitcoin will hold up under load from web server requests?
2338 2011-06-03 16:35:31 <Optimo> gmaxwell, aha
2339 2011-06-03 16:35:31 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, it's pretty simple, the default timeout for connect() on some systems is minutes, so if you have bad luck it can take days to get connections
2340 2011-06-03 16:35:48 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2341 2011-06-03 16:35:51 <Optimo> it's the peers causing the trouble
2342 2011-06-03 16:35:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, dont rag on gentoo users
2343 2011-06-03 16:36:09 <phantomcircuit> we'll beat you up :(
2344 2011-06-03 16:36:19 caedes has joined
2345 2011-06-03 16:36:44 <sacarlson> Optimo: well IRC isn't the only method to connect to the network but what currency are you running?  testnet?
2346 2011-06-03 16:36:52 <UukGoblin> aah, guys? can I bring up the subject of blocksize limit again? :-]
2347 2011-06-03 16:36:53 Fabianius has left ()
2348 2011-06-03 16:36:59 <UukGoblin> since we have a few devs around?
2349 2011-06-03 16:37:00 <Optimo> sacarlson, nope just plain btc
2350 2011-06-03 16:37:25 <Optimo> and I have little luck running with -noirc but this forum thread is painting a better picture
2351 2011-06-03 16:37:30 <sacarlson> Optimo: do you have the port forward set on your router?
2352 2011-06-03 16:37:39 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2353 2011-06-03 16:37:40 <meagain> how do you get push pool to see a new block for long polling? I've seen it mentioned that it has the capabilities but you need something to trigger it.
2354 2011-06-03 16:38:00 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, only if you have something new to say
2355 2011-06-03 16:38:22 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, it was more of a RFC, I'm curious as to what people have to say about it
2356 2011-06-03 16:38:34 <Optimo> sacarlson, yes I did. now realizing that coupled with OS connect() timeouts that my retrying was still subject to clogged slots meybe
2357 2011-06-03 16:39:10 <gmaxwell> Optimo: as mentioned, IRC itself is not the issue.
2358 2011-06-03 16:39:22 <phantomcircuit> personally i think the block size limit should be increased now simply because that will leave time for all the clients to agree on the icnreased size
2359 2011-06-03 16:39:23 <sacarlson> Optimo: how long does it take before you have 6 connections?
2360 2011-06-03 16:39:57 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, did you try the windows build?
2361 2011-06-03 16:40:09 <Optimo> once I get past '1', which sometimes reverts, 23 -6 happens pretty quickly
2362 2011-06-03 16:40:18 <Optimo> no time now, I'm on a mac atm
2363 2011-06-03 16:40:32 <Optimo> my ports have been forwarded all morning ok
2364 2011-06-03 16:40:43 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, well, but how can it be increased without creating chain splits?
2365 2011-06-03 16:40:52 <sacarlson> Optimo: so it takes 23 hours?
2366 2011-06-03 16:41:38 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, you increase it long before it's an issue, aka right now
2367 2011-06-03 16:41:39 <Optimo> sorry: 2,3,4,5,6....all happens pretty quickly once it really gets going
2368 2011-06-03 16:41:48 <phantomcircuit> and just hope that in the future there isn't anybody with an old client
2369 2011-06-03 16:42:00 <sacarlson> Optimo: sounds like no problems then
2370 2011-06-03 16:42:12 <Optimo> you're still missing
2371 2011-06-03 16:42:14 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2372 2011-06-03 16:42:15 <meagain> quit;
2373 2011-06-03 16:42:18 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, it's because he's connectable, that first connection broadcasts his ip to the network
2374 2011-06-03 16:42:32 <phantomcircuit> he's probably still trying to fill the other 7 outbound slots
2375 2011-06-03 16:42:42 <Optimo> sounds right
2376 2011-06-03 16:42:54 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, well if you increase it say in 0.3.23, how is it not going to be an issue if someone generates a block > 1MB and there's still plenty of people left on < 0.3.23?
2377 2011-06-03 16:43:33 <gmaxwell> You make the size block numbe tied.
2378 2011-06-03 16:43:41 <sipa> UukGoblin: something like a max block size should be decided like a year in advance, and hardcoded to only happen at a certain block number
2379 2011-06-03 16:43:41 <Optimo> if you gusy tail the debug.log and you see only; AddAddress(); IRC got address; IRC got join... looping over and over
2380 2011-06-03 16:43:47 <gmaxwell> E.g. >1Mb only allowed in block >x and hope everyone upgrades by then.
2381 2011-06-03 16:43:51 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, what sipa said
2382 2011-06-03 16:43:58 <gmaxwell> what sipa said
2383 2011-06-03 16:44:03 <phantomcircuit> JYNX
2384 2011-06-03 16:44:27 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, the people in the forum have a point, but i have a solution because i am boss
2385 2011-06-03 16:44:35 <Optimo> I might have luck with removing addr.dat?
2386 2011-06-03 16:44:37 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a3pre)
2387 2011-06-03 16:44:40 <Optimo> I think someone else suggested that
2388 2011-06-03 16:44:56 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, i see that you still haven't tried my build
2389 2011-06-03 16:44:57 <phantomcircuit> oh well
2390 2011-06-03 16:44:59 <phantomcircuit> it's loverly
2391 2011-06-03 16:45:04 <Optimo> I'm not on windows
2392 2011-06-03 16:45:15 <phantomcircuit> x86_64?
2393 2011-06-03 16:45:24 <UukGoblin> sipa, ah, good point, haven't thought of that
2394 2011-06-03 16:45:25 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2395 2011-06-03 16:45:30 <Optimo> I'm actually using 'screen' right now ;p
2396 2011-06-03 16:45:56 skeledrew has joined
2397 2011-06-03 16:46:57 <phantomcircuit> Optimo, is the system x86_64?
2398 2011-06-03 16:47:34 <phantomcircuit> cause i have an x86_64 build for linux but im waiting for my i686 toolchain to build
2399 2011-06-03 16:48:02 <Optimo> I appreciate it but I'm not desparate atm, just wanted to discuss it
2400 2011-06-03 16:48:26 <Optimo> (no it's not 64bit)
2401 2011-06-03 16:48:35 kreal- has joined
2402 2011-06-03 16:48:54 <MasterChief> guys im gonna paste some text cos i have a question
2403 2011-06-03 16:48:58 <Optimo> gmaxwell always has good info
2404 2011-06-03 16:49:27 Mononofu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2405 2011-06-03 16:50:56 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> wait the transaction log shows i sent you the whole 0.035
2406 2011-06-03 16:50:57 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> wtf is goin on
2407 2011-06-03 16:50:57 <MasterChief> <doublec> this is what I see: amount" : 0.01709000
2408 2011-06-03 16:50:57 <MasterChief> <doublec> and this txid d0cb681709cbb5a7dd280ca6e5ada27ab8793dd77a90d377ea53cc7a95703c46
2409 2011-06-03 16:50:57 <MasterChief> <doublec> wow, the fee was 0.01791
2410 2011-06-03 16:50:57 <MasterChief> <doublec> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d0cb681709cbb5a7dd280ca6e5ada27ab8793dd77a90d377ea53cc7a95703c46
2411 2011-06-03 16:50:59 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> where did 0.025 come from?
2412 2011-06-03 16:51:01 <MasterChief> <doublec> so your balance was 0.035
2413 2011-06-03 16:51:03 <MasterChief> <doublec> you wanted to send 0.01709
2414 2011-06-03 16:51:05 <MasterChief> <doublec> you lost 0.01791 in fees
2415 2011-06-03 16:51:06 YwY has joined
2416 2011-06-03 16:51:07 <MasterChief> <doublec> the 0.01 and 0.025 shown are the input transactions.
2417 2011-06-03 16:51:09 <MasterChief> <doublec> how the money was stored in your wallet
2418 2011-06-03 16:51:11 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> it said the fee was 0.01 not 0.01791
2419 2011-06-03 16:51:13 <MasterChief> <doublec> no doubt the joy of rounding in the client
2420 2011-06-03 16:51:15 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> it should have rounded up to 0.02
2421 2011-06-03 16:51:17 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> then
2422 2011-06-03 16:51:22 <MasterChief> <doublec> truncation then
2423 2011-06-03 16:51:24 <MasterChief> <doublec> ask in #bitcoin-dev and see what they say
2424 2011-06-03 16:51:25 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> wow i cant beleive it just truncates the number without rounding it
2425 2011-06-03 16:51:27 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> i mad
2426 2011-06-03 16:51:29 <MasterChief> <MasterChief> i should have waited for the new build ;_;
2427 2011-06-03 16:51:31 <MasterChief> my question is does the client really just truncate numbers without rounding them for display??
2428 2011-06-03 16:51:36 <sipa> please do not paste more than 3 lines
2429 2011-06-03 16:51:50 <sipa> and since 0.3.20 it supports arbitrary precision
2430 2011-06-03 16:51:57 <MasterChief> sorry i warned i was about to paste text
2431 2011-06-03 16:52:08 <Optimo> so would it be wrong to share addr.dat files with others?
2432 2011-06-03 16:52:22 <sipa> MasterChief: use a pastebin in the future please
2433 2011-06-03 16:52:50 <MasterChief> i got a warning window saying i had to pay a 0.01 txn fee but the fee was actually 0.01791
2434 2011-06-03 16:52:57 <MasterChief> surely it should have rounded that to 0.02
2435 2011-06-03 16:53:07 <Optimo> why would it round it?
2436 2011-06-03 16:53:14 <diki> be happy, you have more
2437 2011-06-03 16:53:27 <MasterChief> because it only displayed 2 decimal places
2438 2011-06-03 16:53:33 caedes has joined
2439 2011-06-03 16:53:39 BitterTea has joined
2440 2011-06-03 16:53:44 <sipa> which version?
2441 2011-06-03 16:54:01 <MasterChief> 0.3.21
2442 2011-06-03 16:54:56 <sipa> there shouldn't be any rounding anywhere
2443 2011-06-03 16:55:10 <sipa> but i don't see why that strange fee occured
2444 2011-06-03 16:55:12 <jav_> does anyone have a clean patch for the monitortx branch?
2445 2011-06-03 16:55:20 <Optimo> I have 0.3.21-beta
2446 2011-06-03 16:55:44 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2447 2011-06-03 16:55:50 <sipa> MasterChief: oh, it's easy
2448 2011-06-03 16:56:01 <phantomcircuit> bah stupid router
2449 2011-06-03 16:56:04 <sipa> it's not able to send 0.00709 back to yourself
2450 2011-06-03 16:56:14 Meloribius has joined
2451 2011-06-03 16:56:15 <sipa> so it turns that into a fee
2452 2011-06-03 16:56:20 <MasterChief> why not?
2453 2011-06-03 16:56:20 <sipa> the bug is that it should warn you
2454 2011-06-03 16:56:35 <sipa> actually, in this case, it could, as it was already paying the fee
2455 2011-06-03 16:56:36 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2456 2011-06-03 16:56:39 <phantomcircuit> anybody else finding that mtgox sends strange amounts of btc when you cash out?
2457 2011-06-03 16:56:43 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: did you change your confirmation wait time increase or something?
2458 2011-06-03 16:56:44 <sipa> there's a patch ready for 0.4.0 probably that fixes this
2459 2011-06-03 16:56:56 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: or is shit just slow cause of all the processing right now?
2460 2011-06-03 16:57:00 <MasterChief> why couldent it send the hcange back?
2461 2011-06-03 16:57:17 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, the fee on 0.00709 is 0.01
2462 2011-06-03 16:57:34 <Optimo> ahhh finally my client connected ;)
2463 2011-06-03 16:57:59 samfisher has joined
2464 2011-06-03 16:58:05 <MasterChief> wait so the change counts as its own txn w/ seperate txn fee?
2465 2011-06-03 16:58:13 <samfisher> hi. any webdesigners here?
2466 2011-06-03 16:58:19 <sipa> MasterChief: no, it's a bug
2467 2011-06-03 16:58:22 <Meloribius> samfisher: yep
2468 2011-06-03 16:58:43 <sipa> MasterChief: it tries to avoid a sub-0.01 output, because that would incur a fee larger than what it is sending
2469 2011-06-03 16:58:54 <sipa> MasterChief: the problem is that it does this without checking whether a fee is already being paid
2470 2011-06-03 16:59:00 <samfisher> Meloribius: i need some advices. do you know where could I find a template suitable for a kindergaten? something like this: http://www.art-alegria.ro/
2471 2011-06-03 16:59:06 kika_ has joined
2472 2011-06-03 16:59:10 <samfisher> Meloribius: or just to copy that website
2473 2011-06-03 16:59:25 <sipa> MasterChief: anyway, expect this fixed in 0.4.0
2474 2011-06-03 16:59:29 <phantomcircuit> bah
2475 2011-06-03 16:59:36 <phantomcircuit> emerging 228/309
2476 2011-06-03 16:59:42 <phantomcircuit> i686 toolchain ftl
2477 2011-06-03 17:00:22 eoss has joined
2478 2011-06-03 17:01:15 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2479 2011-06-03 17:01:35 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2480 2011-06-03 17:01:36 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i got an awesome easy build setup for osx going
2481 2011-06-03 17:01:39 meagain has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2482 2011-06-03 17:01:55 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, nice
2483 2011-06-03 17:01:56 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: really? nice
2484 2011-06-03 17:01:57 <doublec> shouldn't a bug that loses peoples money be prioritized as a tad more important than 0.4.0?
2485 2011-06-03 17:01:59 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: and then found out the wx 2.9 builds in macports have all the fucking debugging shit turned on .... and not to stdout/err either, pops up fucking dialogs
2486 2011-06-03 17:02:00 <doublec> or is 0.4.0 close?
2487 2011-06-03 17:02:01 devon_hillard has joined
2488 2011-06-03 17:02:08 <BlueMatt> (though Id like to see xcompile, but whatever
2489 2011-06-03 17:02:08 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
2490 2011-06-03 17:02:08 devon_hillard has joined
2491 2011-06-03 17:02:16 <phantomcircuit> lolllll
2492 2011-06-03 17:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> so I'm having to merge bluematt's wx2.8 fixes to see if those packages are in a better state, lol
2493 2011-06-03 17:02:40 prax has joined
2494 2011-06-03 17:02:40 prax has quit (Changing host)
2495 2011-06-03 17:02:40 prax has joined
2496 2011-06-03 17:02:42 <jrmithdobbs> and the wx 2.8 packages require shit to be rebuilt as universal
2497 2011-06-03 17:02:52 <jrmithdobbs> so I'm waiting for macports to basically rebuild everything i have installed :(
2498 2011-06-03 17:02:58 <BlueMatt> wx2.8 works on osx? nice
2499 2011-06-03 17:03:15 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: don't know if your patches work yet because i'm still waiting on everything to rebuild
2500 2011-06-03 17:03:20 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2501 2011-06-03 17:03:44 <jrmithdobbs> on a core2duo @ 1.6Ghz
2502 2011-06-03 17:03:46 <jrmithdobbs> lol
2503 2011-06-03 17:03:54 <diki> lolol
2504 2011-06-03 17:03:54 Mononofu has joined
2505 2011-06-03 17:04:05 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, dude that's a luxury
2506 2011-06-03 17:04:14 <jrmithdobbs> i <3 my macbook air but it was not purchased with this kind of building in mind ;P
2507 2011-06-03 17:04:21 <phantomcircuit> Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N450   @ 1.66GHz
2508 2011-06-03 17:04:27 <jrmithdobbs> i can beat that
2509 2011-06-03 17:04:43 <diki> those things can run crysis more or less
2510 2011-06-03 17:04:48 <jrmithdobbs> model name      : Geode(TM) Integrated Processor by AMD PCS
2511 2011-06-03 17:04:54 <jrmithdobbs> cpu MHz         : 497.963
2512 2011-06-03 17:04:55 <phantomcircuit> lol
2513 2011-06-03 17:04:58 <BlueMatt>  Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU         920  @ 2.67GHz
2514 2011-06-03 17:05:05 <BlueMatt> oh wait, are we trying to go lower?
2515 2011-06-03 17:05:08 <diki> what??
2516 2011-06-03 17:05:09 <BlueMatt> ;P
2517 2011-06-03 17:05:14 <phantomcircuit> my i7 is at home
2518 2011-06-03 17:05:18 <diki> bluematt you have an 920 yet no OC?
2519 2011-06-03 17:05:25 <jrmithdobbs> the geode is my little embedded router thing i built ;P
2520 2011-06-03 17:05:27 <phantomcircuit> lol im build everything on it over ssh
2521 2011-06-03 17:05:29 <BlueMatt> diki: no, its ocd to 3.8
2522 2011-06-03 17:05:32 <phantomcircuit> <3 ssh
2523 2011-06-03 17:05:35 <BlueMatt> but that doesnt show in /proc/cpuinfo
2524 2011-06-03 17:05:38 <gjs278> yeah
2525 2011-06-03 17:05:40 <gjs278> I hate that
2526 2011-06-03 17:05:45 <jrmithdobbs> works great for what it does (and only has 256M ram and a 2G flash card)
2527 2011-06-03 17:05:57 <gjs278> it only reads my oc if I mess with a higher bclck
2528 2011-06-03 17:06:01 <phantomcircuit> 237 of 309
2529 2011-06-03 17:06:01 <ordex> my bitcoind segfaulted even when using minerd
2530 2011-06-03 17:06:02 <phantomcircuit> sigh
2531 2011-06-03 17:06:03 <gjs278> if I do pure multiplier it misses it
2532 2011-06-03 17:06:37 DavidSJ has joined
2533 2011-06-03 17:06:59 <devon_hillard> ;bc,calc 75000
2534 2011-06-03 17:07:03 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 75000
2535 2011-06-03 17:07:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 75000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 41 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 14 seconds
2536 2011-06-03 17:07:17 <jrmithdobbs> runs krb5kdc (kadmind runs elsewhere), dhcpd, bind (two copies, one with dnssec automanagement and one as a validating resolver), nat stuff, miniupnpd (for xbl mostly), ldap, apache, AND radvd
2537 2011-06-03 17:07:29 <Eremes> anyone on BTCmine with bounty stats still not updating ???
2538 2011-06-03 17:07:40 <jrmithdobbs> all on a geode 500 with 256M/ram and 2G cf card
2539 2011-06-03 17:08:15 <jrmithdobbs> oh, and it the openvpnp site-to-site tunnel to the colo box
2540 2011-06-03 17:08:17 <jrmithdobbs> can't forget that
2541 2011-06-03 17:08:28 <jrmithdobbs> s/openvpnp/openvpn/
2542 2011-06-03 17:08:36 <ordex> gmaxwell: can I paste here three lines?
2543 2011-06-03 17:08:43 <phantomcircuit> lol i have openvpn setup on a box
2544 2011-06-03 17:08:50 <phantomcircuit> but im to lazy to setup snat
2545 2011-06-03 17:08:50 <devon_hillard> a better metric for bitcoins is: time_to_generate_block_at_100KH/s divided by price_of_block
2546 2011-06-03 17:08:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
2547 2011-06-03 17:09:02 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 100000
2548 2011-06-03 17:09:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 30 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 10 seconds
2549 2011-06-03 17:09:08 <gmaxwell> ordex: use pastebin?
2550 2011-06-03 17:09:09 <ordex> (gdb) bt
2551 2011-06-03 17:09:10 <ordex> #0  0xb7bc0443 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libcrypto++.so.0
2552 2011-06-03 17:09:11 <ordex> #1  0xb7bc15c7 in CryptoPP::SHA256::Transform(unsigned int*, unsigned int const*) () from /usr/lib/libcrypto++.so.0
2553 2011-06-03 17:09:17 <ordex> ops sorry
2554 2011-06-03 17:09:21 <ordex> you were right :P
2555 2011-06-03 17:09:25 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: that geode is my edge device at home ;P
2556 2011-06-03 17:09:32 <ordex> it seems to be libgcrypto fault right?
2557 2011-06-03 17:09:38 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, you vpn into it?
2558 2011-06-03 17:09:40 <phantomcircuit> lame
2559 2011-06-03 17:09:46 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: no more fun than that
2560 2011-06-03 17:09:52 <phantomcircuit> i was saying i have openvpn on an anonymous server
2561 2011-06-03 17:09:58 sethsethseth___ has joined
2562 2011-06-03 17:10:09 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: it runs a site-to-site vpn to my colo box and the colo box bridges the client-facing vpn net device with the site-to-site
2563 2011-06-03 17:10:11 <phantomcircuit> i never took the time to understand iptables
2564 2011-06-03 17:10:21 <phantomcircuit> oh
2565 2011-06-03 17:10:24 <gmaxwell> ordex: it's segfaulting there?
2566 2011-06-03 17:10:26 <phantomcircuit> so then yes you're doing the same thing
2567 2011-06-03 17:10:31 <ordex> gmaxwell: yes
2568 2011-06-03 17:10:35 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, on which box do you have snat running?
2569 2011-06-03 17:10:42 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: don't use snat
2570 2011-06-03 17:10:47 <gmaxwell> man, I wishthe binary you were using had debugging symbols…
2571 2011-06-03 17:10:47 <phantomcircuit> what should i use?
2572 2011-06-03 17:10:48 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: use masquerade because no static
2573 2011-06-03 17:10:59 <phantomcircuit> no static what
2574 2011-06-03 17:11:03 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2575 2011-06-03 17:11:05 <jrmithdobbs> i have no static ip assignment
2576 2011-06-03 17:11:06 DavidSJ has quit (Client Quit)
2577 2011-06-03 17:11:09 <jrmithdobbs> so snat is just a pain
2578 2011-06-03 17:11:09 <phantomcircuit> oh
2579 2011-06-03 17:11:17 <jrmithdobbs> (at home, obviously the colo box does)
2580 2011-06-03 17:11:38 <phantomcircuit> wait why would snat be a pain? the openvpn link is using static private ips i would assume
2581 2011-06-03 17:11:52 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: and if i want to route out the colo box instead of using my upstreame directly i just set the bind/from addr to the ipv6 tunnel that routes out that way instead of natting ;P
2582 2011-06-03 17:11:56 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2583 2011-06-03 17:12:07 <ordex> gmaxwell: no :P I'm updating libgcrypto..if the problem persists I'll recompile bitcoind with debug symbols
2584 2011-06-03 17:12:12 <phantomcircuit> ok you lost me
2585 2011-06-03 17:12:13 <phantomcircuit> lol
2586 2011-06-03 17:12:14 sethsethseth____ has joined
2587 2011-06-03 17:12:23 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: don't understand what you're asking i guess, hold on let me find my ghetto network diagram from the last time i explained my setup to someone
2588 2011-06-03 17:12:36 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: (yes, my home network is more complicated than most small-medium sized businesses)
2589 2011-06-03 17:12:46 <phantomcircuit> ZOMG /. IS DOWN
2590 2011-06-03 17:12:51 <phantomcircuit> PREPARE FOR INVASION
2591 2011-06-03 17:13:19 ericmock_ has joined
2592 2011-06-03 17:14:17 meagain has joined
2593 2011-06-03 17:14:33 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2594 2011-06-03 17:14:34 BurtyBB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2595 2011-06-03 17:14:50 BurtyBB has joined
2596 2011-06-03 17:15:22 <meagain> I want to know when jgarzik is going to come out and announce that he is satoshi with some proof. I still don't know why he has changed his person the first time, and now is the x2 guy. Pick a name so we can keep track of you.
2597 2011-06-03 17:15:57 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: meh, i can't find the picture i took of it and i can't find the physical copy either (thank the dog literally ate it)
2598 2011-06-03 17:16:10 <jrmithdobbs> s/thank/think/
2599 2011-06-03 17:16:26 <jgarzik> meagain: my code is far prettier than satoshi's.  I would never write something in C++ willingly.
2600 2011-06-03 17:16:29 <jrmithdobbs> she has a thing for loose pieces of paper. especially if the cat knocks it off something and starts playing with it first, lol
2601 2011-06-03 17:17:24 <meagain> :)  I just at minimum want to thank you and gavin for being so involved since satoshi handed it off. and also always hope satoshi is still helping just anonymously
2602 2011-06-03 17:19:08 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i lied though, that geode now has a 120G 5400rpm laptop drive in a usb self-powered enclosure because i was also doing my netboot stuff for the miners off of it, haha
2603 2011-06-03 17:19:15 <jrmithdobbs> forgot about that
2604 2011-06-03 17:20:18 vigilyn has joined
2605 2011-06-03 17:22:03 Mononofu has left ()
2606 2011-06-03 17:22:13 marcin__ has joined
2607 2011-06-03 17:24:43 <jgarzik> meagain: thank the rest of the dev team, too
2608 2011-06-03 17:24:53 * jgarzik wants to nip this "Gavin & Jeff" business in the bud
2609 2011-06-03 17:25:20 <gjs278> uh oh... I heard a kernel error beep
2610 2011-06-03 17:25:25 <gjs278> that or the flash plugin died
2611 2011-06-03 17:25:27 <gjs278> one of the two
2612 2011-06-03 17:25:30 <meagain> of course, thanks to everyone. thanks to the entire community. but you two really are specific heads that people look to.
2613 2011-06-03 17:26:43 <jgarzik> gavin is lead, and I am peer among sipa, tcatm, BlueMatt, TD, ArtForz, phantomcircuit, ...  :)
2614 2011-06-03 17:27:22 <gavinandresen> you're just trying to weasel out of work :)
2615 2011-06-03 17:27:58 <gmaxwell> Is there some nice "who is the core development team" page someplace? (e.g. on the bitcoin wiki)
2616 2011-06-03 17:28:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: http://www.bitcoin.org/
2617 2011-06-03 17:28:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, hehe
2618 2011-06-03 17:28:21 <gmaxwell> DURRRr
2619 2011-06-03 17:28:25 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i was going to say something but it's better that you did ;)
2620 2011-06-03 17:28:29 <phantomcircuit> also
2621 2011-06-03 17:28:35 PirateMarmalade has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2622 2011-06-03 17:28:35 <phantomcircuit> YARG NEED BUILD SERVER
2623 2011-06-03 17:28:49 <phantomcircuit> anybody here in poland?
2624 2011-06-03 17:28:56 <BlueMatt> bluematt.me/jenkins?
2625 2011-06-03 17:28:57 devrandom has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2626 2011-06-03 17:29:01 <jgarzik> my great-grandparents were polish
2627 2011-06-03 17:29:02 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2628 2011-06-03 17:29:20 <BlueMatt> (please dont go downloading often and distributing that link though)
2629 2011-06-03 17:29:25 <phantomcircuit> i need a way to get a faster comp in warsaw
2630 2011-06-03 17:29:43 <phantomcircuit> wait im retarded there's a technical university across the street ill just go ask people
2631 2011-06-03 17:30:07 amiller_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2632 2011-06-03 17:30:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you missed a / :P
2633 2011-06-03 17:31:02 <BlueMatt> where?
2634 2011-06-03 17:31:16 <phantomcircuit> bluematt.me/jenkins/?
2635 2011-06-03 17:31:21 <ordex> gmaxwell: do I really have to enable debugging symbols?
2636 2011-06-03 17:31:22 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter
2637 2011-06-03 17:31:26 <BlueMatt> it will work either way
2638 2011-06-03 17:31:36 <phantomcircuit> no it doesn't :P
2639 2011-06-03 17:31:43 <BlueMatt> then your browser sucks
2640 2011-06-03 17:31:48 <BlueMatt> wfm
2641 2011-06-03 17:31:50 <phantomcircuit> nope
2642 2011-06-03 17:32:03 <phantomcircuit> your serverlet doesn't handle it properly
2643 2011-06-03 17:32:30 <lizthegrey> phantomcircuit: what license is bitcoin-alt under?
2644 2011-06-03 17:32:35 <BlueMatt> wfm
2645 2011-06-03 17:32:36 <lizthegrey> I cannot find a COPYING or LICENSE file
2646 2011-06-03 17:32:42 <lizthegrey> and how far along is it?
2647 2011-06-03 17:32:50 intractable has joined
2648 2011-06-03 17:32:59 <BlueMatt> its in the repo
2649 2011-06-03 17:33:02 <BlueMatt> oh bitcoin-alt
2650 2011-06-03 17:33:06 <BlueMatt> wtf is bitcoin-alt
2651 2011-06-03 17:33:10 <phantomcircuit> there isn't one yet and so far it will connect to the network and download blocks into an sqlite db
2652 2011-06-03 17:33:17 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, python implementation
2653 2011-06-03 17:33:21 <lizthegrey> https://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
2654 2011-06-03 17:33:35 <phantomcircuit> i got to writting the scripting engine and just stopped cold
2655 2011-06-03 17:33:36 <BlueMatt> ah that one
2656 2011-06-03 17:33:36 <phantomcircuit> heh
2657 2011-06-03 17:35:11 <ordex> how do I enable debug symbols on compiling?
2658 2011-06-03 17:35:24 <lizthegrey> phantomcircuit: elly and I are going to start development pretty soon on a python client, and we're likely going to be required to use BSD or apache2 license
2659 2011-06-03 17:35:46 <lizthegrey> if you have something useful we can build off that's compatible with the license requirements, we could start with that, otherwise we'd probably start from scratch
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2664 2011-06-03 17:46:02 <roconnor> whee, switching to projecitve coordinates for representing elliptic curve points makes noticably faster. :)
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2668 2011-06-03 17:50:54 <jgarzik> ordex: -g
2669 2011-06-03 17:51:04 <ordex> jgarzik: yes.
2670 2011-06-03 17:51:07 <ordex> adding it
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2677 2011-06-03 17:57:06 <YwY> I first post on the #bitcoin... but too many nosies there, so I post here again. Hope somebody can help me
2678 2011-06-03 17:57:07 <YwY> Question: Is it possible the transaction in the main block chain is revoked later (because double spending?) ? I cannot find the answer from wiki
2679 2011-06-03 17:57:51 <tcatm> YwY: yes, that's possible (has never happened, though)
2680 2011-06-03 17:57:58 <YwY> ok
2681 2011-06-03 17:58:32 Optimo has joined
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2683 2011-06-03 17:58:53 <YwY> so the transaction is collected into the block when it is received, even if it hasn't been confirmed enough times, right?...
2684 2011-06-03 17:59:10 <tcatm> being collected confirms tha tx
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2687 2011-06-03 18:00:13 <jgarzik> lizthegrey: yeah, gotta check licenses up front :/
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2691 2011-06-03 18:02:18 <YwY> the problem is if I create a transaction to myself, pre-calculate some part of the hash, then broadcast the transaction with the valid hash. Could this be faster than collect-then-hash
2692 2011-06-03 18:02:41 <YwY> the only value i have to know in advance is the hash value of the previous block
2693 2011-06-03 18:03:02 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2694 2011-06-03 18:03:11 <YwY> i can pre-compute all the rest of data before i get the prehash
2695 2011-06-03 18:04:12 skeledrew1 has joined
2696 2011-06-03 18:04:46 <tcatm> YwY: pre-calculating that hash is just as expensive as hashing the block itself
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2699 2011-06-03 18:06:30 <YwY> I took a look at the SHA-256 algorithm myself. It seems SHA-256 will divide the data to several blocks of length 512 bits
2700 2011-06-03 18:06:53 zooko has joined
2701 2011-06-03 18:07:31 <tcatm> the part that is hashed is fixed-length (1024 bit)
2702 2011-06-03 18:07:53 <mtrlt> actually it's 80 bytes
2703 2011-06-03 18:07:59 <mtrlt> the block header that is :p
2704 2011-06-03 18:08:06 <tcatm> yep
2705 2011-06-03 18:08:09 <mtrlt> of course, standard padding is added to the end
2706 2011-06-03 18:08:24 scott` has joined
2707 2011-06-03 18:08:39 <YwY> but you can only feed SHA-256 512-bit data in one time
2708 2011-06-03 18:08:41 <scott`> ;;bc,stats
2709 2011-06-03 18:08:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128395 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 628 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 527036.37385772
2710 2011-06-03 18:08:59 <YwY> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2#Comparison_of_SHA_functions
2711 2011-06-03 18:09:33 <YwY> if the prehash exists in only one 512-bit block, we can compute the other block in advance
2712 2011-06-03 18:10:41 <tcatm> that's already done
2713 2011-06-03 18:10:47 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: btw to compound the connect() problems ConnectSocket() is using it's own equivilant of IsRoutable() logic and both it's and IsRoutable left out a /12 and /16 set of unroutable ipv4 space (already put a pull in)
2714 2011-06-03 18:10:51 <tcatm> you should really study the block generation process
2715 2011-06-03 18:11:08 <YwY> i checked the wik
2716 2011-06-03 18:11:12 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: and yes, i'm responding to a discussion from ~7 hours ago ;P
2717 2011-06-03 18:11:16 <YwY> but not enough info there
2718 2011-06-03 18:11:31 <YwY> should i study the source code also?
2719 2011-06-03 18:11:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
2720 2011-06-03 18:12:23 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: great, thanks for the pull.  I'll let others comment/review (my networking kung fu is weak)
2721 2011-06-03 18:12:55 <phantomcircuit> IsRoutable shouldn't even be in there
2722 2011-06-03 18:13:21 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: hey i just fixed what was there. ;P
2723 2011-06-03 18:13:24 <phantomcircuit> tor nodes wouldn't could with that logic
2724 2011-06-03 18:13:32 <phantomcircuit> count*
2725 2011-06-03 18:13:44 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, you there?
2726 2011-06-03 18:13:51 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: no they just wont advertise or be connectable (which they shouldn't be)
2727 2011-06-03 18:13:55 <YwY> i mean the block header is 640-bit. however SHA-256 can only take 512 bits in one step. So the 640 bits will be divided into to 2 parts and be computed in 2 steps
2728 2011-06-03 18:14:05 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: how do you think it should be handled?
2729 2011-06-03 18:14:48 <vegard> it IS computed in two steps, isn't it?
2730 2011-06-03 18:14:59 <YwY> yes, i think so
2731 2011-06-03 18:15:29 <vegard> what do you want to precompute?
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2733 2011-06-03 18:16:12 <YwY> vegard: maybe we can precompute one step first?
2734 2011-06-03 18:16:19 <tcatm> the first part is computed only once per 2^32 hashes
2735 2011-06-03 18:16:26 intelliot has joined
2736 2011-06-03 18:17:11 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, what
2737 2011-06-03 18:17:19 <phantomcircuit> im hungry brain stopped working for a minute there
2738 2011-06-03 18:17:20 <phantomcircuit> lol
2739 2011-06-03 18:17:35 ArtForzZy has joined
2740 2011-06-03 18:17:56 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i think IsRoutable() is fine and when/if full onion address support is added can be extended to accomodate tor (so long as noone puts in more duplicate but differently implemented logic like is in ConnectSocket())
2741 2011-06-03 18:18:00 <jrmithdobbs> is what i'm saying
2742 2011-06-03 18:18:07 <lizthegrey> jgarzik: yeah. having an employer who insists on having copyright to my code even written outside work hours, and wants to limit what I can/can't develop and under what licenses is annoying :/
2743 2011-06-03 18:18:16 <lizthegrey> but at least they're (hopefully) letting me proceed for now.
2744 2011-06-03 18:18:29 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the current p2p protocol actualyl cant handle tor at all
2745 2011-06-03 18:18:34 <phantomcircuit> actually i just had a though
2746 2011-06-03 18:18:35 <phantomcircuit> t
2747 2011-06-03 18:18:37 <phantomcircuit> one sec
2748 2011-06-03 18:18:43 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: that'll teach you to blindly sign those papers
2749 2011-06-03 18:19:08 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: i actually about a year ago ended up parting ways with a company over terms that were similar and worse than that
2750 2011-06-03 18:19:10 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if the entire tor hidden services address space could be mapped into ipv6
2751 2011-06-03 18:19:19 <phantomcircuit> that would be awesome
2752 2011-06-03 18:19:39 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: they had the kind of stipulations you describe PLUS wanted rights to everything previous that I couldn't prove was already patentend/etc
2753 2011-06-03 18:19:44 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: for an *IT* job
2754 2011-06-03 18:20:12 <jrmithdobbs> i summarily redacted more than half the document and gave it to them signed and when they wouldnt negotiate told them to go fuck themselves ;P
2755 2011-06-03 18:20:26 <Dagger2> assuming the hidden services address space is less than a few trillion addresses...
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2757 2011-06-03 18:20:48 <phantomcircuit> Dagger2, it's based on some private key so it's possible that it's >128bits
2758 2011-06-03 18:21:02 <phantomcircuit> indeed it would have to completely fit with a /48 to be practically available
2759 2011-06-03 18:21:18 <jrmithdobbs> i'd say a /64 to be pratical
2760 2011-06-03 18:21:29 <jrmithdobbs> unless you want to pay arin's assrape membership fees
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2763 2011-06-03 18:21:58 <jrmithdobbs> though, you could commandeer the site-local address space that's a /10
2764 2011-06-03 18:22:06 <jrmithdobbs> if you can get people to agree
2765 2011-06-03 18:22:11 <Dagger2> ah. yeah, sounds tricky, without making a central mapping of addresses to keys
2766 2011-06-03 18:22:16 <jrmithdobbs> it's not been reallocated yet
2767 2011-06-03 18:22:30 <lizthegrey> speaking of ipv6, why doesn't bitcoin support it natively yet for the p2p protocol and 'send to ip address'?
2768 2011-06-03 18:22:31 <jrmithdobbs> and has been dead in the spec for 6 years now iirc
2769 2011-06-03 18:22:38 <Dagger2> /48s should be easily available from ISPs
2770 2011-06-03 18:22:40 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: because the netcode is crap
2771 2011-06-03 18:22:51 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: is the short of it
2772 2011-06-03 18:22:54 <artegu> nanotube banned me, so i'll drop his dox i guess. nanotube is Daniel Folkinshteyn (dfolkins@temple.edu, dfolkins@gmail.com, nanotube@gmail.com, daniel.folkinshteyn@yale.edu [class of 02, Biology])  215-204-8108, 267-468-8360. linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/daniel-folkinshteyn/0/5b3/884  Parents: Galina & Leo - 3555 Ridge Rd., Perkasie, PA 18944 e-mail logs of nanotube's non-stop
2773 2011-06-03 18:22:54 <artegu> insanity sent to his advisor and dept. chair @ temple.  good times... enjoy explaining that shit nanoboob. looool  ratemyprofessor:  http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1247318
2774 2011-06-03 18:22:54 <artegu> nanotube banned me, so i'll drop his dox i guess. nanotube is Daniel Folkinshteyn (dfolkins@temple.edu, dfolkins@gmail.com, nanotube@gmail.com, daniel.folkinshteyn@yale.edu [class of 02, Biology])  215-204-8108, 267-468-8360. linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/daniel-folkinshteyn/0/5b3/884  ratemyprofessor:  http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1247318
2775 2011-06-03 18:22:55 artegu has left ()
2776 2011-06-03 18:23:10 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: luke has a halfway there implementation that i'm going to try and finish if i have time
2777 2011-06-03 18:23:14 <phantomcircuit> that was amusing
2778 2011-06-03 18:23:32 <lizthegrey> jrmithdobbs: cool :) - I'm mining over ipv6, which is cool at least :)
2779 2011-06-03 18:23:43 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2780 2011-06-03 18:23:44 artegu has joined
2781 2011-06-03 18:23:45 <artegu> nanotube banned me, so i'll drop his dox i guess. nanotube is Daniel Folkinshteyn (dfolkins@temple.edu, dfolkins@gmail.com, nanotube@gmail.com, daniel.folkinshteyn@yale.edu [class of 02, Biology])  215-204-8108, 267-468-8360. linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/daniel-folkinshteyn/0/5b3/884  Parents: Galina & Leo - 3555 Ridge Rd., Perkasie, PA 18944 e-mail logs of nanotube's non-stop
2782 2011-06-03 18:23:45 <artegu> insanity sent to his advisor and dept. chair @ temple.  good times... enjoy explaining that shit nanoboob. looool  ratemyprofessor:  http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1247318
2783 2011-06-03 18:23:45 <artegu> nanotube banned me, so i'll drop his dox i guess. nanotube is Daniel Folkinshteyn (dfolkins@temple.edu, dfolkins@gmail.com, nanotube@gmail.com, daniel.folkinshteyn@yale.edu [class of 02, Biology])  215-204-8108, 267-468-8360. linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/daniel-folkinshteyn/0/5b3/884  ratemyprofessor:  http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1247318
2784 2011-06-03 18:23:47 artegu has left ()
2785 2011-06-03 18:23:52 <Dagger2> I looked at the ipv6 patch that was posted here yesterday. it has hardcoded knowledge of ipv4 and ipv6 everywhere :/
2786 2011-06-03 18:24:14 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: ya it's better than the code currently though, like i said, halfway there
2787 2011-06-03 18:24:54 <GarrettB> so what's up with that artegu guy?
2788 2011-06-03 18:24:59 Phoebus has joined
2789 2011-06-03 18:25:00 <phantomcircuit> all you need to do is use ipv4 mapped ipv6
2790 2011-06-03 18:25:02 <phantomcircuit> magic
2791 2011-06-03 18:25:06 <phantomcircuit> it's how my python client works
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2795 2011-06-03 18:25:33 <Dagger2> except XP doesn't support that
2796 2011-06-03 18:25:48 eoss has joined
2797 2011-06-03 18:26:43 <phantomcircuit> Dagger2, well it also helps that my code has only a single point where i would need to check if the ip is ipv4 or 6
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2800 2011-06-03 18:27:35 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: i think support for xp should be considered similar to support for sco/xenix/hp-ux/aix/solaris
2801 2011-06-03 18:27:40 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: namely, who fuckin cares
2802 2011-06-03 18:27:51 <phantomcircuit> it's still used in most corporate environments
2803 2011-06-03 18:27:56 <phantomcircuit> it's like an ongoing joke
2804 2011-06-03 18:28:04 <Dagger2> I run XP, so: me
2805 2011-06-03 18:28:09 <phantomcircuit> also i use it in vms where win7 shits all over the place
2806 2011-06-03 18:28:23 <phantomcircuit> BAH ONLY 512MB OF RAM I WILL DIE
2807 2011-06-03 18:28:29 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: not on anything that'll be running the bitcoin client really though and ipv6 could just be disabled on xp
2808 2011-06-03 18:28:33 <luke-jr> Dagger2: it's coming from a strictly IPv4-only codebase with IPv4 assumptions everywhere. it wasn't meant to be complete.
2809 2011-06-03 18:28:48 <jrmithdobbs> especially considering how broken xp's ipv6 is anyways
2810 2011-06-03 18:29:18 <phantomcircuit> either way it should be fixible with a single if statement
2811 2011-06-03 18:29:19 <jrmithdobbs> but then, I don't even have a windows install (legal or otherwise) currently so my opinion doesn't much matter
2812 2011-06-03 18:29:25 <phantomcircuit> but of course it isn't because of the mess
2813 2011-06-03 18:31:17 <jrmithdobbs> ya it honestly kills me, considering when implementation started, that it wasn't done with ipv4 in ipv6 mapped space to begin with ;P
2814 2011-06-03 18:32:09 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: Satoshi clearly had one focus in mind (security), and neglected everything unrelated to that
2815 2011-06-03 18:32:29 <luke-jr> and unfortunately didn't really involve other people until it was too late, it seems
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2819 2011-06-03 18:36:05 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ya, his crypto stuff is sound, his real-world network implementation .... not so much
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2821 2011-06-03 18:39:28 <kermit> why is my wallet being modified when im not sending or receiving any transactions?
2822 2011-06-03 18:40:37 <iz> kermit: because you generated new addresses?
2823 2011-06-03 18:41:47 KingMartin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2824 2011-06-03 18:42:04 <kermit> iz: not that i'm aware of
2825 2011-06-03 18:42:29 <uppesnuppe> kermit: it updates when the blocks are updated (which is often)
2826 2011-06-03 18:42:56 <jgarzik> [PULL] add -keypoolmin, and avoid creating new key on every TX - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11725.0
2827 2011-06-03 18:43:36 orlly has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2828 2011-06-03 18:44:20 <kermit> uppesnuppe: will my wallet backups still be valid?
2829 2011-06-03 18:45:20 YwY has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2830 2011-06-03 18:45:31 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
2831 2011-06-03 18:46:01 <uppesnuppe> kermit: certainly. whenever the wallet is out of sync it will just tick along until it's back in sync
2832 2011-06-03 18:46:49 <kermit> uppesnuppe: as long as i havent spent anything since the copy, right?
2833 2011-06-03 18:46:56 <uppesnuppe> right
2834 2011-06-03 18:47:53 <CIA-103> bitcoin: various keypool-resize * r2eeaec..95f5b3 bitcoind-personal/ (50 files in 13 dirs): (55 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3joucbb
2835 2011-06-03 18:48:20 <iz> wait.. does it even matter if he spends something?
2836 2011-06-03 18:48:28 <iz> he can still back up the old wallet file, right?
2837 2011-06-03 18:49:44 <iz> oh.. but it would be missing some newly generated keys..
2838 2011-06-03 18:49:57 <uppesnuppe> yeah, spending can be re-calculated and is not really an issue in a backup
2839 2011-06-03 18:50:14 <kermit> uppesnuppe: since when?
2840 2011-06-03 18:50:16 <jrmithdobbs> is anyone currently working on support for LE plaftforms like ppc/POWER and m68k? at current adoption rates i could see people with ibm hardware wanting to run bitcoin
2841 2011-06-03 18:50:33 <jrmithdobbs> (esp: financial institutions)
2842 2011-06-03 18:50:47 <jrmithdobbs> and yes, i know it's not an easy fix
2843 2011-06-03 18:51:02 <uppesnuppe> kermit: since origin
2844 2011-06-03 18:51:38 <kermit> uppesnuppe: thats not what i've always been told.. ive always been told a wallet copy will become invalid once youve made a new transaction.
2845 2011-06-03 18:52:25 <lizthegrey> the problem is change
2846 2011-06-03 18:52:35 <lizthegrey> when you send a transaction, it sends some to your destination and sends the change back to you
2847 2011-06-03 18:52:39 <lizthegrey> at a new wallet key
2848 2011-06-03 18:52:44 <ordex> but after mining where should I see the obtained bitcoin? in my balance?
2849 2011-06-03 18:53:03 <lizthegrey> so you may lose your change if you don't back up after sending a tx
2850 2011-06-03 18:53:31 <jgarzik> ordex: how are you mining?  with bitcoind? cpuminer?  poclbm?  pool or solo?
2851 2011-06-03 18:53:51 <ordex> actually solo with bitcoind, just for a try
2852 2011-06-03 18:54:05 <kermit> lizthegrey: which could be up to 49.99 btc, right?
2853 2011-06-03 18:54:17 <uppesnuppe> kermit: when a backup is first created, it has all of your old keys plus 100 unused keys. After sending a transaction, it has 99 unused keys. After a total of 100 new-key actions, you will start using keys that are not in your backup. Since the backup does not have the private keys necessary for authorizing spends of these coins, restoring from the old backup will cause you to lose Bitcoins
2854 2011-06-03 18:54:21 <jgarzik> ordex: it will take you 3-7 years to generate a block, assuming difficulty does not rise
2855 2011-06-03 18:54:23 <jrmithdobbs> ya with current code it's best to: bitcoind send*address <options>; sync; sync; sync; sleep 30; sync; rsync -aP /path/to/wallet.dat /path/to/backup/localtion/; whenever creating a txn
2856 2011-06-03 18:54:29 <jgarzik> ordex: which it does, every 2 weeks
2857 2011-06-03 18:54:39 <jrmithdobbs> to garauntee a good backup
2858 2011-06-03 18:54:41 <ordex> jgarzik: nice to know :D
2859 2011-06-03 18:54:49 <jrmithdobbs> that should be somewhere on the wiki
2860 2011-06-03 18:54:51 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2861 2011-06-03 18:54:52 <ordex> jgarzik: but to mine something, must I use a pool?
2862 2011-06-03 18:55:04 <jgarzik> ordex: if you want anything at all, use a pool
2863 2011-06-03 18:55:16 <jgarzik> ordex: remember CPU mining generates less than cost of electricity
2864 2011-06-03 18:55:41 <ordex> yes sure, it would be just a try
2865 2011-06-03 18:56:02 <diki> jgarzik:why does your sha256 code in msg.c in fuction submit_work spewing weird characters if i decide to print it?
2866 2011-06-03 18:56:05 <kermit> jgarzik: i thought pools are discouraged because it threatens the 50% of computing power security measure
2867 2011-06-03 18:56:25 <iz> ordex: the odds of generating a block solo and getting the full 50 btc is so small right now.. that it would take years for you..  if you use a pool, you could get like.. 0.03 bitcoins for running it for a few days..
2868 2011-06-03 18:56:28 <jgarzik> kermit: if you're CPU mining, it's pool or nothing realistically
2869 2011-06-03 18:56:44 <jgarzik> diki: because you're doing it wrong
2870 2011-06-03 18:56:44 <gmaxwell> So .... why the address pre-generation. Why not just store a large random seed in the wallet and use that to generate new addresses. ?
2871 2011-06-03 18:57:05 <diki> any nudge to help me display it?
2872 2011-06-03 18:57:15 temphuman has joined
2873 2011-06-03 18:57:16 <ordex> iz: understood, thanks
2874 2011-06-03 18:57:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i'm kind of fuzzy on that, my thought was that it was to prevent issues like that guy that lost 9000 coins but the current code doesn't prevent that at all
2875 2011-06-03 18:57:21 <gmaxwell> E.g. store 4kb of random crap in the wallet. then to get a new key just do SHA256(randomcrap+N) where N is the index.
2876 2011-06-03 18:57:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, looking at the openssl code ecdsa privkey seems to just be a random bignum
2877 2011-06-03 18:57:53 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: sync;sync;sync is actually a horrible misnomer. there's NO reason to do three sync's anymore, and the old reason was the delays in between typing them separately on three individual lines.
2878 2011-06-03 18:58:12 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: yes.  see my scratch card patch.
2879 2011-06-03 18:58:21 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: it's more because you can't garuantee bdb has actually writen to the file yet in this case
2880 2011-06-03 18:58:22 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats why there is a pool, but I just described a better way than a pool. The only downside is that right now you can hit get-address 100x then send yourself money to recover a walet from theft.  But no one will actually do that, and the theieves will be long gone by then.
2881 2011-06-03 18:58:41 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: no, I'm saying you don't have to do three of them. just one has the same effect.
2882 2011-06-03 18:58:49 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: that's also why the sleep 30
2883 2011-06-03 18:59:05 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, if da2ce7 would respond i would get on implementing password based ecdsa keys
2884 2011-06-03 18:59:21 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: yes, i see that. that's why I didn't say "four" I said "three."  :-)
2885 2011-06-03 18:59:27 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: no need for him to respond, I already did that
2886 2011-06-03 18:59:30 <gmaxwell> So what I'm describing is like the 'password based' but just with a enormous saved 'password'.
2887 2011-06-03 18:59:32 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: i understand that, that is just the garuanteed cross-posix-portable method of making sure it really syncs ;P
2888 2011-06-03 18:59:33 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ...and went through rounds of community review
2889 2011-06-03 18:59:45 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: you are right on linux at the least, though
2890 2011-06-03 18:59:56 <gmaxwell> (thus lacking all the crazy security problems of password based)
2891 2011-06-03 19:00:08 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: no, it's not guaranteed at all. anywhere. there's no secret trick to getting a sync to happen with three that wasn't going to happen with just 1.
2892 2011-06-03 19:00:34 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: fair enough
2893 2011-06-03 19:00:46 <midnightmagic> but the delay in there I agree with, for what it's worth. the delay and the second sync is good.
2894 2011-06-03 19:00:55 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, im assuming you didn't solve the problem of password collisions due to peopel being dumb?
2895 2011-06-03 19:01:14 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: i'm not entirely sure that's true on solaris though with it's agressive disk write caching and unwillingness to fucking sync when you tell it to ;P
2896 2011-06-03 19:01:44 <jrmithdobbs> but i'm not entirely sure bitcoin will even run as is on solaris so probably a moot point
2897 2011-06-03 19:01:51 <midnightmagic> i thought zfs had proper write barriers?
2898 2011-06-03 19:02:09 <jrmithdobbs> assuming zfs is still a pretty far fetched assumption
2899 2011-06-03 19:02:17 <midnightmagic> true enough.
2900 2011-06-03 19:02:20 edgarallanpoe has joined
2901 2011-06-03 19:02:27 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I'm assuming you did not read the thread nor code...
2902 2011-06-03 19:03:03 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, hehe no
2903 2011-06-03 19:03:16 <gmaxwell> Thread?
2904 2011-06-03 19:03:49 <jgarzik> [PATCH] bitcoin scratch-off cards - http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=4555.0
2905 2011-06-03 19:04:04 <jgarzik> current version is stored in github/jgarzik/bitcoin.git
2906 2011-06-03 19:05:12 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that is similar, but nto exactly what i was thinking
2907 2011-06-03 19:05:13 <gmaxwell> Good stuff.
2908 2011-06-03 19:05:21 <phantomcircuit> i meant user supplied passwords
2909 2011-06-03 19:05:32 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: it includes that
2910 2011-06-03 19:06:02 <gmaxwell> Now why not use that for the all keys in wallet, except simply skipping the hardening and saving the random blob?  Thus solving the old-backup lost keys problem forever?
2911 2011-06-03 19:07:07 DontMindMe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2914 2011-06-03 19:07:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i cant see where it does though
2915 2011-06-03 19:07:44 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: salt
2916 2011-06-03 19:08:03 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2917 2011-06-03 19:08:13 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: read the code, don't limit your thinking to one example
2918 2011-06-03 19:08:53 ahihi2 has joined
2919 2011-06-03 19:08:55 <phantomcircuit> yeah you specify the salt and it still generates random data though right?
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2925 2011-06-03 19:12:18 <iz> gmaxwell: thinking about what you said.. 1 flaw, is that w/ that system, large mining pools could subvert miners to hack a rich person's wallet, based on previous transactions
2926 2011-06-03 19:12:19 bitcoiner has joined
2927 2011-06-03 19:12:32 <diki> after all the blocks have been minted would that mean that we have more or less bruteforce almost every sha256 hash possible?
2928 2011-06-03 19:12:41 <diki> *bruteforceD
2929 2011-06-03 19:12:45 <midnightmagic> iz: how?
2930 2011-06-03 19:12:50 <jrmithdobbs> diki: no
2931 2011-06-03 19:12:57 stuhood has left ()
2932 2011-06-03 19:12:58 <phantomcircuit> lol order of magnitude fail
2933 2011-06-03 19:12:59 <gmaxwell> iz: going to bruteforce a 32768 bit keyspace?
2934 2011-06-03 19:13:01 <jrmithdobbs> diki: and even if we had, none of it's getting stored so it's not helpful
2935 2011-06-03 19:13:08 <iz> by asking them which sha256(randomcrap+<past account>) ewuals a past one
2936 2011-06-03 19:13:14 <iz> just like they are currently doing
2937 2011-06-03 19:13:16 <diki> jrmith:it does get stored=the blockchain
2938 2011-06-03 19:13:24 <diki> and blockexplorer as well
2939 2011-06-03 19:13:26 <jrmithdobbs> diki: only the valid solutions get stored
2940 2011-06-03 19:13:29 <gmaxwell> iz: they don't know randomcrap.
2941 2011-06-03 19:13:35 <iz> oh.. wait.. hmm.
2942 2011-06-03 19:13:38 <jrmithdobbs> diki: which is a very tiny portion of the completed hashes
2943 2011-06-03 19:13:42 <gmaxwell> iz: and randomcrap should be enormous.
2944 2011-06-03 19:13:42 <diki> 21 mil valid solutions is as good as a mile
2945 2011-06-03 19:13:52 <iz> like a blockheader...
2946 2011-06-03 19:13:58 <iz> and index is like a nonce
2947 2011-06-03 19:14:01 <cacheson> iz: have to take difficulty into account... what you're proposing is like trying to find a block with max difficulty
2948 2011-06-03 19:14:15 <gmaxwell> iz: no reason why randomcrap shouldn't be several kilobytes.
2949 2011-06-03 19:14:41 <iz> hmm.. yeah..
2950 2011-06-03 19:14:43 <davex__> wow...  britcoin trades at 1btc for 16 gbp
2951 2011-06-03 19:14:51 <jrmithdobbs> diki: but for instance the vast majority will be hashes whose value are less than the current target right now, which means half of the hash result space is basically completely unmapped
2952 2011-06-03 19:14:57 <iz> i kinda like that idea though.. also, it could be implemented just in a custom client
2953 2011-06-03 19:15:03 <BlueMatt> wow nanotube you have a good rate my professor rating :)
2954 2011-06-03 19:15:07 <iz> w/out any changes to the p2p end of it
2955 2011-06-03 19:15:13 <jrmithdobbs> diki: so the answer is still no
2956 2011-06-03 19:15:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: lol doxed
2957 2011-06-03 19:15:42 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
2958 2011-06-03 19:15:44 <gmaxwell> iz: 1kb of randomcrap would end up being smaller than a current wallet with just its first 100 addresses in it, thus easier to back up.
2959 2011-06-03 19:15:49 <iz> yeah
2960 2011-06-03 19:15:56 <iz> i agree.. and it wouldn't get out of sync
2961 2011-06-03 19:16:04 <iz> it could actually be a hash chain, right?
2962 2011-06-03 19:17:02 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I find it interesting that that guy is proud of his ability to google nanotube
2963 2011-06-03 19:17:14 <gmaxwell> I don't see why you'd use anything but an index. Then it would not even need to save private keys, just save a small mapping of addresses to indexes which could be regenerated if lost.
2964 2011-06-03 19:17:20 <BlueMatt> anyway, hes useful for one thing: finding out that nanotube is liked by the two students who rated him :)
2965 2011-06-03 19:17:24 <iz> yeah, index is better
2966 2011-06-03 19:17:47 <iz> well..
2967 2011-06-03 19:17:52 <iz> provability
2968 2011-06-03 19:17:58 <iz> with a hash chain
2969 2011-06-03 19:18:09 <iz> you can forget past addresses you've used
2970 2011-06-03 19:18:09 <gmaxwell> (also, prior address gets wonky if it ever does collide because then it would loop.. index would be less fatal. :)
2971 2011-06-03 19:18:25 <nanotube> BlueMatt: heh
2972 2011-06-03 19:18:28 <iz> by updating your wallet with the current part of the chain
2973 2011-06-03 19:18:29 <gmaxwell> if you forget your backups are no good.
2974 2011-06-03 19:18:36 <nanotube> same old troll, same old tricks
2975 2011-06-03 19:18:41 <BlueMatt> yep
2976 2011-06-03 19:18:44 Titeuf_87_ has joined
2977 2011-06-03 19:18:57 <iz> with an index, if the feds get your wallet.dat, they can trace it back to your first transaction..
2978 2011-06-03 19:19:02 <iz> i guess you can jlust make a new wallet
2979 2011-06-03 19:19:04 <gmaxwell> I'm just not clear why this wasn't done instead of the pool to begin with.
2980 2011-06-03 19:19:06 <iz> if you are that paranoid
2981 2011-06-03 19:19:40 <gmaxwell> oh.. hm.. I suppose you could make yourself forget old addresses if you intentionally get rid of your backups thats good too.
2982 2011-06-03 19:19:45 <iz> maybe due to the amount of entropy needed to start off?
2983 2011-06-03 19:19:57 <gmaxwell> iz: you need a lot of entropy to generate 100 keys.
2984 2011-06-03 19:20:04 <gmaxwell> You could use the same amount in a reusable blob.
2985 2011-06-03 19:20:18 <iz> yeah.. but maybe it's much more to be able to securely generate infinite keys..
2986 2011-06-03 19:20:29 <BlueMatt> what do you teach, btw, nanotube?
2987 2011-06-03 19:20:47 <nanotube> finance
2988 2011-06-03 19:21:02 <BlueMatt> interesting
2989 2011-06-03 19:21:10 <gmaxwell> iz: we're in trouble if someone can recover randomcrap from the observed public keys... that sounds so impossibly hard.
2990 2011-06-03 19:21:30 caedes has joined
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2993 2011-06-03 19:21:41 <gmaxwell> iz: first you'd have to recover the private key(s).. then invert the highly lossy hash function...
2994 2011-06-03 19:21:47 Titeuf_87 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2995 2011-06-03 19:22:28 <iz> yeah.. i guess 1kb of random crap doesn't take that long..
2996 2011-06-03 19:23:23 <iz> call it a billfold.dat  :b   cuz it folds up lots of accounts
2997 2011-06-03 19:23:38 <gmaxwell> well, even better you can use blocking reads of /dev/random and also ask the user to mash in random data to feed to it. which you wouldn't want to do during runtime while generating more keys.
2998 2011-06-03 19:25:23 devrandom has joined
2999 2011-06-03 19:26:20 <gmaxwell> The current system already can't forget any key that its shown you— because it doesn't know where you've posted that key.
3000 2011-06-03 19:26:48 <gmaxwell> So the inability to forget doesn't seem like a major liability to me.
3001 2011-06-03 19:27:59 Mapatti has quit (Quit: AndroIRC)
3002 2011-06-03 19:30:45 <iz> yeah.. and you can get around it by just making a new wallet
3003 2011-06-03 19:30:56 <iz> if it does bother you
3004 2011-06-03 19:31:05 * diki tried printing the sha256 but still can't. He get's only binary data
3005 2011-06-03 19:31:11 <gmaxwell> right, which is all anyone would possibly get right anyways.
3006 2011-06-03 19:31:46 LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
3007 2011-06-03 19:31:49 <iz> you could even use a fixed bitlength for N
3008 2011-06-03 19:31:59 <diki> *gets
3009 2011-06-03 19:32:17 d1g1t4l has joined
3010 2011-06-03 19:32:24 <iz> and just say the wallet has a max of that many addresses.. and when you get to the end, it makes a new one
3011 2011-06-03 19:32:47 d1g1t4l has quit (Client Quit)
3012 2011-06-03 19:33:02 <gmaxwell> iz: eh, I'd rather just increase the randompool size until you're sure. It's about not surprising people with weird behaviors that happen rarely.
3013 2011-06-03 19:33:36 <gmaxwell> iz: whats more likely? a really freaky attack that only works with 10,000 addresses... or that 10k addresses go by and you still think you're fine with your initial backup?
3014 2011-06-03 19:34:05 <iz> yeah, true
3015 2011-06-03 19:34:15 <iz> keep it simple
3016 2011-06-03 19:34:56 cyberdo has joined
3017 2011-06-03 19:34:56 <gmaxwell> If the pool size is small enough it greatly facilitates good backups. e.g. printed backups become actually pretty pratical.
3018 2011-06-03 19:35:05 <iz> yeah
3019 2011-06-03 19:35:28 <jmpespxoreax> diki: pipe it to hexdump
3020 2011-06-03 19:35:31 ArtForzZy is now known as ArtForz
3021 2011-06-03 19:35:35 <gmaxwell> I think a QR code can store almost 3kb.
3022 2011-06-03 19:36:00 <lizthegrey> there was some discussion of defaulting to addresses being delete-once-empty
3023 2011-06-03 19:36:06 <lizthegrey> and checking a box or passing a flag
3024 2011-06-03 19:36:11 <lizthegrey> to make an address persistent
3025 2011-06-03 19:36:26 <gmaxwell> iz: 2953 bytes for a QR code.
3026 2011-06-03 19:37:06 <iz> it coult be a series of QR codes, also.. for storage.. as long as they can print out on one page
3027 2011-06-03 19:37:16 <gmaxwell> lizthegrey: I like crypto-nerd anonymity as much as the next guy, but when it gets in the way of pratical usability— especially when 99.99% of everyone isn't actually competent and paranoid enough (both) to actually benefit from things like that.
3028 2011-06-03 19:37:17 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3029 2011-06-03 19:37:42 <gmaxwell> iz: there are non-QR 2d barcodes that store more, of course. QR just has the benefit of being standardized.
3030 2011-06-03 19:38:12 <cyberdo> the testnet faucet is down. Could anyone donate a coin or two? mg4EQTMBPosDcrJJsGhATWcX5xqr6y4pTR
3031 2011-06-03 19:38:13 <iz> yeah
3032 2011-06-03 19:38:15 gwelymernan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3033 2011-06-03 19:38:18 <Optimo> enforcing wallet backups
3034 2011-06-03 19:39:01 <gmaxwell> well see, having a backup at all is against the delete-once-empty anonymity behavior described above to begin with.
3035 2011-06-03 19:39:49 <gmaxwell> So it's kinda silly to have a relability hostile system in the name of anonymity then fix the reliability issue with burdensom backups that break your hard-anonymity.
3036 2011-06-03 19:39:59 edgarallanpoe has joined
3037 2011-06-03 19:39:59 <Optimo> ;p
3038 2011-06-03 19:40:48 <gmaxwell> The kind of users who will carefully destroy their backups to preserve delete-once-empty could also just move and destroy wallets.
3039 2011-06-03 19:43:26 EPiSKiNG has joined
3040 2011-06-03 19:43:28 <MasterChief> theres a testnet faucet?
3041 2011-06-03 19:44:11 <MasterChief> hey how many pages of a4 would a printed backup of your wallet be?
3042 2011-06-03 19:45:20 <Optimo> I believe I heard there was a testnet faucet...
3043 2011-06-03 19:45:41 <Optimo> there's a a4 page that hlds like 200kb
3044 2011-06-03 19:45:49 <Optimo> so...a quarter page?
3045 2011-06-03 19:46:02 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: mine could fit on two I think using optar. http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/
3046 2011-06-03 19:46:18 <gmaxwell> but optar is a lot pickier about scanning and printing than e.g. QR.
3047 2011-06-03 19:46:25 <Optimo> so you can't really truncate your wallet index?
3048 2011-06-03 19:46:52 <gmaxwell> So we were discussing a scheme here that would allow a wallet to be backed up in something QR code sized or perhaps two.
3049 2011-06-03 19:46:58 <Optimo> say I only want 10 of the addresses to  ever be concerned with..
3050 2011-06-03 19:47:10 <gmaxwell> well it's smaller with few addresses.
3051 2011-06-03 19:47:23 <gmaxwell> though the pre-generation stuff will bloat it from the start.
3052 2011-06-03 19:47:48 <cyberdo> https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/test/
3053 2011-06-03 19:47:49 <MasterChief> holy shit really how many bits fit on an a4?
3054 2011-06-03 19:47:53 <MasterChief> i thought it would be thousands
3055 2011-06-03 19:47:57 ForceMajeure has quit ()
3056 2011-06-03 19:48:02 <cyberdo> MasterChief: meant for you, ofc
3057 2011-06-03 19:48:12 lumos is now known as damelo_ya
3058 2011-06-03 19:48:38 <MasterChief> paper wallet backups are a must
3059 2011-06-03 19:48:54 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: each address in the wallet.dat is not _tiny_, and a typical user will end up with hundreds fairly quickly.
3060 2011-06-03 19:49:07 damelo_ya is now known as type_I
3061 2011-06-03 19:49:13 <Optimo> if those schemes use FEC for paper that is a good idea probably
3062 2011-06-03 19:49:16 marcin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3063 2011-06-03 19:49:26 <gmaxwell> Optimo: yes, pretty extensive fec infact.
3064 2011-06-03 19:49:28 <MasterChief> fec?
3065 2011-06-03 19:49:35 <gmaxwell> forward error correction.
3066 2011-06-03 19:49:37 <Optimo> like on a optical disc
3067 2011-06-03 19:49:51 <MasterChief> ummm
3068 2011-06-03 19:49:55 <Optimo> and all kinda schemes used around the world
3069 2011-06-03 19:49:59 <MasterChief> reed solomon comes to mind?
3070 2011-06-03 19:50:14 <gmaxwell> Thats one kind of FEC (an erasure code), yes.
3071 2011-06-03 19:50:30 <MasterChief> yes i had assumed ECC would be pretty extensive with paper
3072 2011-06-03 19:50:43 <MasterChief> like you can cut random shapes out of the page with no loss
3073 2011-06-03 19:51:07 <gmaxwell> in any case, the current way the wallet works is not terribly frendly with paper backups. Not incompatible, but not friendly.
3074 2011-06-03 19:51:25 <JFK911> 2-d barcodes are perfect
3075 2011-06-03 19:51:38 <MasterChief> i expect the whole wallet stuff to be totally re-engineered
3076 2011-06-03 19:51:49 <Optimo> holography would be sweet
3077 2011-06-03 19:51:52 dfc has joined
3078 2011-06-03 19:52:06 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: well it just has been, for the encrypted wallet stuff, but the encrypted wallet stuff doesn't solve this. :(
3079 2011-06-03 19:52:34 <MasterChief> no i mean to stop people going 'ive lost all my coins and i dont kno why!'
3080 2011-06-03 19:52:46 <Optimo> how about something that looks like a dollar bill, with gylphs arranged to create a fascimilie of the bill artwork, but it's really storing your wallet codes
3081 2011-06-03 19:52:50 <MasterChief> it should be very difficult to lose your coins
3082 2011-06-03 19:53:07 <Optimo> use mybitcoin.com for noobs right?
3083 2011-06-03 19:53:13 <gmaxwell> It could pretty easily, by just not saving the wallet IDs as all and instead making private key = SHA-512(hardened(password)+index+randomcrap) and storing the randomcrap. But thats not how it works. :(
3084 2011-06-03 19:53:19 dfc has quit (Client Quit)
3085 2011-06-03 19:53:21 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
3086 2011-06-03 19:53:28 <MasterChief> backups become invalid after each transaction
3087 2011-06-03 19:53:56 <gmaxwell> (well and using the password directly in it would probably be bad, because then you couldn't change passwords, so forget I said that and pretend I said simply encrypting the randomcrap with a hardened password)
3088 2011-06-03 19:54:04 dfc has joined
3089 2011-06-03 19:54:31 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: not after each, after 100.
3090 2011-06-03 19:54:39 <FabianB_> you know bitbills.com?
3091 2011-06-03 19:54:41 <gmaxwell> (assuming that all 100 had change)
3092 2011-06-03 19:54:59 <MasterChief> do you really want to risk losing track of where you are in the 100 buffer?
3093 2011-06-03 19:55:03 meLon has joined
3094 2011-06-03 19:55:20 <MasterChief> its flase security and begets bad practice
3095 2011-06-03 19:55:30 <Optimo> what consortium gets to discuss chain compression ?
3096 2011-06-03 19:55:47 <MasterChief> brb raring my blockchain
3097 2011-06-03 19:55:49 <gmaxwell> MasterChief: yea, I think what I'm suggesting is better. But the people who do the actual work around here are being very quiet.
3098 2011-06-03 19:56:08 <MasterChief> i discovered a nice double txn fee bug today
3099 2011-06-03 19:56:16 <Optimo> maybe the client app could offer to consolidate the wallet on each startup
3100 2011-06-03 19:56:26 <MasterChief> theyll get around to fixing it in .4 apparantly lol
3101 2011-06-03 19:56:39 <gmaxwell> Optimo: terrible for anonymity.
3102 2011-06-03 19:57:07 <gmaxwell> Optimo: thats goes back to what I said before about making the reliablity suck in the name of anonymity then fixing it by doing more wok to break the anonymity.
3103 2011-06-03 19:57:29 <gmaxwell> If you're going to do that you might as well always have the change come back to the sending address.
3104 2011-06-03 19:58:00 <Optimo> you have a great grasp on this stuff
3105 2011-06-03 19:59:10 <MasterChief> someone has to lol
3106 2011-06-03 19:59:31 <Optimo> would it be a good prediction to think that most merchants might also mine to offset fees?
3107 2011-06-03 19:59:53 <Optimo> way in the future it's like they would be paying their own fees
3108 2011-06-03 20:00:34 <MasterChief> uh yeah they would be paying thier own fees whats the difference
3109 2011-06-03 20:00:42 <Optimo> so they could make prediction about how much they could mine (pooled) and play with their merch pricing on that
3110 2011-06-03 20:01:51 DukeOfURL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3111 2011-06-03 20:02:38 <lizthegrey> they'd be more likely to pay a pool operator
3112 2011-06-03 20:02:44 <lizthegrey> to take their transactions zero-fee
3113 2011-06-03 20:02:59 <Optimo> I like that too
3114 2011-06-03 20:03:14 <lizthegrey> not realistic for merchants to expect to run their own miners - I suspect mining will get more and more specialized
3115 2011-06-03 20:03:43 Sylph has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3116 2011-06-03 20:04:16 <MasterChief> thats bad
3117 2011-06-03 20:04:39 type_I has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3118 2011-06-03 20:05:10 marlowe has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3119 2011-06-03 20:05:16 <Optimo> however, if a mining rig were some liek 1 rackunit 'appliance'
3120 2011-06-03 20:06:02 <Optimo> there's a lot to scheme up on all angles of this madness
3121 2011-06-03 20:06:18 glenn__ has joined
3122 2011-06-03 20:06:35 Cherothald has joined
3123 2011-06-03 20:07:32 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: wallet can already be backed up qr code size?!
3124 2011-06-03 20:07:57 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: all you need is the privkeys, the rest of it can be regenerated from those (pubkeys) or the blockchain (txn history)
3125 2011-06-03 20:08:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: some of the fancier big qr codes can hold quite a bit of data
3126 2011-06-03 20:08:23 <diki> okay, im almost there...
3127 2011-06-03 20:08:46 <diki> the hash i get though is reversed...
3128 2011-06-03 20:09:01 <diki> actually, double reversed
3129 2011-06-03 20:09:53 <jrmithdobbs> ya the endianness swapping stuff is confusing as fuck
3130 2011-06-03 20:10:02 <diki> i get c1eb044f0708015b267913fc4dff5aabe3dd4a97f10f7ba935cd360000000000
3131 2011-06-03 20:10:08 <diki> the real hash is 000000000036cd35a97b0ff1974adde3ab5aff4dfc1379265b0108074f04ebc1
3132 2011-06-03 20:10:09 EPiSKiNG has quit ()
3133 2011-06-03 20:10:54 <diki> if i can only swap the above hash to make it like the real one...i can continue to using it to getblockbyhash
3134 2011-06-03 20:13:39 <Optimo> big endian
3135 2011-06-03 20:13:52 * Optimo throws out random terminology
3136 2011-06-03 20:14:43 glenn__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3137 2011-06-03 20:15:02 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: standard qr code can only store a bit under 3kbytes... which doesn't even get you 100 private keys.
3138 2011-06-03 20:15:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: even without going into the not-qr 2d barcode stuff (or the more fun 3d ones) version 40 177x177 qr codes can hold ~2.8MB of data at low ecc and
3139 2011-06-03 20:15:09 <diki> i tried doing this: 	for (k = 0; k < 64; k++)
3140 2011-06-03 20:15:09 <diki> 		hash[k] = bswap_32(hash[k]); but it failed
3141 2011-06-03 20:15:18 <diki> this is the reverse to what jgarzik does
3142 2011-06-03 20:15:21 <diki> or so i thought..
3143 2011-06-03 20:15:21 <gmaxwell> oh okay. Well there you go.
3144 2011-06-03 20:15:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and android's barcode scanner reads version 40 177x177 just fine ;P
3145 2011-06-03 20:15:35 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I didn't know about the bigger sizes.
3146 2011-06-03 20:16:03 <gmaxwell> Well then, my concern is not that significant on the size front.  The fact that you have to keep backing up a working wallet is still an issue.
3147 2011-06-03 20:16:03 <jrmithdobbs> well, it does assuming your camera lens isn't fucked up and is of decent enough quality to actually take a picture that can distinguish everything
3148 2011-06-03 20:16:32 EPiSKiNG has joined
3149 2011-06-03 20:16:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: bitcoin could be fixed to not gain an exclusive read lock on open and only do so when actually necessary
3150 2011-06-03 20:16:51 m4rtin has quit ()
3151 2011-06-03 20:17:12 samfisher has joined
3152 2011-06-03 20:17:14 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: then an external app could grab the required exclusive read lock, which will make bitcoin block on wallet operations (or SHOULD), make the backup and release the lock
3153 2011-06-03 20:17:27 gwelymernan has joined
3154 2011-06-03 20:17:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: also, see sipa (or was it jgarzik's) dumpwallet patches
3155 2011-06-03 20:17:38 <samfisher> i think since bitcoin's value goes so high, so fast, nobody uses it as a payment mean
3156 2011-06-03 20:17:46 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the point is that you should be able to backup your wallet _once_ ever. and then do 10000 txn on it and lose nothing…
3157 2011-06-03 20:17:46 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3158 2011-06-03 20:17:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: those are the "right" way to backup. dump it to json and don't futz with the file directly
3159 2011-06-03 20:17:54 <samfisher> almost everybody buys and holds on it
3160 2011-06-03 20:17:56 <Optimo> :( cracked macbook air glass
3161 2011-06-03 20:18:03 <jrmithdobbs> jrmithdobbs: i think that's a pretty lofty goal
3162 2011-06-03 20:18:07 <jrmithdobbs> erm
3163 2011-06-03 20:18:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ^^
3164 2011-06-03 20:18:15 <jrmithdobbs> talking to myself
3165 2011-06-03 20:19:08 <samfisher> who owns http://bitcoincharts.com ?
3166 2011-06-03 20:19:17 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: tcatm
3167 2011-06-03 20:19:23 <jrmithdobbs> iirc
3168 2011-06-03 20:19:36 <Optimo> samfisher you have something you're selling for bitcoins?
3169 2011-06-03 20:19:50 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: thet rick is to not sell based on current exchange rates
3170 2011-06-03 20:19:56 <jrmithdobbs> s/rick/trick/
3171 2011-06-03 20:20:00 <gmaxwell> Anyone keeping historic data from the mtgox orderbook? I'd like to make an animated or 3d version of the depth chart.
3172 2011-06-03 20:20:13 <samfisher> Optimo: yes, but nobody seems to be interested in what i have, mainly because what i sell is for girls
3173 2011-06-03 20:20:19 Nicksasa has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3174 2011-06-03 20:20:20 <tcatm> gmaxwell: I do.
3175 2011-06-03 20:20:23 <Optimo> it's early growing pains
3176 2011-06-03 20:20:38 <lizthegrey> samfisher: what are you selling?
3177 2011-06-03 20:20:40 <samfisher> tcatm: your website is very pleasant to wathc
3178 2011-06-03 20:20:50 <tcatm> samfisher: thanks :)
3179 2011-06-03 20:20:51 <lizthegrey> I mean, 5-10% of the community seems to be women thus far
3180 2011-06-03 20:20:55 <samfisher> lizthegrey: handmade jewelry
3181 2011-06-03 20:20:56 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: sell at 7d trading average (at most) so that you catually have a possibility of converting to what the user thinks they're worth when liquidating to other currencies
3182 2011-06-03 20:21:13 * Optimo goes to do drugs
3183 2011-06-03 20:21:14 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: wow. thanks
3184 2011-06-03 20:21:22 <jrmithdobbs> i'd say 30d but things have been swinging way too much for that to be feasible
3185 2011-06-03 20:21:29 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3186 2011-06-03 20:21:37 Nicksasa has joined
3187 2011-06-03 20:21:52 <lizthegrey> samfisher: ooh. my fiancee and I have been meaning to buy engagement rings, but we're probably going with a lady who's a local artisan
3188 2011-06-03 20:22:01 <gmaxwell> tcatm: care to share?
3189 2011-06-03 20:22:02 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: this is how normal retail works for setting prices, just, other currencies don't vary this wildly this often
3190 2011-06-03 20:22:03 <lizthegrey> link to your stuff?
3191 2011-06-03 20:22:13 <tcatm> gmaxwell: sure, it's just a few gigabytes
3192 2011-06-03 20:22:20 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: so in my mind it's completely fair
3193 2011-06-03 20:22:27 <midnightmagic> tcatm: you're tracking bid/ask changes too?
3194 2011-06-03 20:22:32 <tcatm> midnightmagic: sure
3195 2011-06-03 20:22:48 <midnightmagic> i wrote something to watch them, but not record them.
3196 2011-06-03 20:22:55 <samfisher> lizthegrey: http://www.ayarikubazar.com
3197 2011-06-03 20:22:56 <tcatm> haven't figured out what to do with them, but I figured it might make sense to start collecting
3198 2011-06-03 20:22:59 <gmaxwell> tcatm: I'm not intimidated by that.... I could give you a place to scp it too if you were actually willing.
3199 2011-06-03 20:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: but you also end up with situations like where i just solda  bunch of mining hardware at the 7d average last week and by the time it was out of escrow the ammount he paid was >50% more what it was really worth, heh (and the opposite could happen on a down swing)
3200 2011-06-03 20:23:10 <midnightmagic> tcatm: i think it's crucially important information, personally.
3201 2011-06-03 20:23:22 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: but trading for goods at 7d or 30d average mitigates the merchant's risk
3202 2011-06-03 20:23:27 <lizthegrey> (and if the raging misogynists don't drive them off, the proportion of women will probably increase)
3203 2011-06-03 20:23:42 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: i would honestly hold off using it to sell actual product until the markets stabalize a bit though
3204 2011-06-03 20:23:43 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: can you please tell where can I get this 7d average (in eur iv availablabe)
3205 2011-06-03 20:23:57 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: bitcoincharts.com/markets on the right in a table
3206 2011-06-03 20:24:03 <jrmithdobbs> i forget where he pulls that data from
3207 2011-06-03 20:24:27 <lizthegrey> samfisher: omg, that's cute :)
3208 2011-06-03 20:24:56 <samfisher> lizthegrey: thank you :D
3209 2011-06-03 20:24:58 <jrmithdobbs> lizthegrey: well, the crazy libertarians haven't scared off the sane people so women have a shot! ;P
3210 2011-06-03 20:25:04 <jrmithdobbs> at least, not all the sane people
3211 2011-06-03 20:25:04 <tcatm> gmaxwell: query is running...
3212 2011-06-03 20:25:08 edgarallanpoe has joined
3213 2011-06-03 20:25:13 <[Tycho]> Is the graph on http://bitcoinwatch.com frozen for two days already or it's just me ?
3214 2011-06-03 20:25:15 <Optimo> gmaxwell, tcatm; btw this is cool http://mtgoxlive.bco.in/orders
3215 2011-06-03 20:25:28 <Optimo> gotta view it with Chrome I think
3216 2011-06-03 20:25:50 <Optimo> it kinda animates..
3217 2011-06-03 20:25:51 toffoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3218 2011-06-03 20:25:53 <tcatm> Optimo: I'm going to use websockets (with fallbacks), soon.
3219 2011-06-03 20:26:00 <samfisher> Optimo: it won't work with firefox
3220 2011-06-03 20:26:03 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3221 2011-06-03 20:26:21 <jrmithdobbs> tcatm: where do you pull that 7d/30d average from? your stored records?
3222 2011-06-03 20:26:32 <tcatm> jrmithdobbs: yep, all from my database
3223 2011-06-03 20:26:33 <lizthegrey> jrmightdobbs: ha! :)
3224 2011-06-03 20:27:19 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: i can't see it :(
3225 2011-06-03 20:27:36 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: ?
3226 2011-06-03 20:27:52 <midnightmagic> samfisher: use chrome
3227 2011-06-03 20:28:01 <diki> so any ideas how the swappiness can be done?
3228 2011-06-03 20:28:20 <Optimo> diki should be plenty of examples on how to swap ends
3229 2011-06-03 20:28:21 temphuman has left ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
3230 2011-06-03 20:28:25 <Optimo> in C
3231 2011-06-03 20:28:35 <diki> i am not very good with these bit operators
3232 2011-06-03 20:28:44 <diki> i am not good at all actually
3233 2011-06-03 20:28:53 toffoo has joined
3234 2011-06-03 20:28:54 <diki> this is the first ever time i actually am facing them
3235 2011-06-03 20:29:01 <Optimo> http://www.codeguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=292902
3236 2011-06-03 20:29:36 <Optimo> holy crap that would be too convenient
3237 2011-06-03 20:29:46 <Optimo> nevermind
3238 2011-06-03 20:29:58 <jrmithdobbs> wont quite work with that example exactly but close enough to get you in the right direction
3239 2011-06-03 20:30:07 <jrmithdobbs> because 64bit vs 256bit
3240 2011-06-03 20:30:34 <tcatm> gmaxwell: Query OK, 27028491 rows affected (4 min 25.02 sec)
3241 2011-06-03 20:31:12 meLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3242 2011-06-03 20:31:33 <phantomcircuit> config.status: error: cannot find input file: utils/ifacecheck/src/Makefile.in
3243 2011-06-03 20:31:39 <phantomcircuit> bah
3244 2011-06-03 20:31:45 <phantomcircuit> wxGTK is broken on gentoo
3245 2011-06-03 20:31:51 <phantomcircuit> :(
3246 2011-06-03 20:31:53 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: wx needs to die
3247 2011-06-03 20:31:59 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: i can't see the 7day average
3248 2011-06-03 20:32:05 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: scroll right
3249 2011-06-03 20:32:15 <phantomcircuit> i cant build 32 bit binaries
3250 2011-06-03 20:32:18 <phantomcircuit> sad face
3251 2011-06-03 20:32:33 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: it overflows
3252 2011-06-03 20:32:37 <jrmithdobbs> samfisher: alternatively, don't use ie
3253 2011-06-03 20:32:38 <gmaxwell> tcatm: heh was that just a count(1) that took 4 minutes? :)
3254 2011-06-03 20:32:48 <diki> but close enough to get you in the right direction<-yeah, that could be hard
3255 2011-06-03 20:33:09 <Optimo> diki do more googling
3256 2011-06-03 20:33:11 <jrmithdobbs> diki: i'm trying to be nice. stop making it so hard.
3257 2011-06-03 20:33:17 <tcatm> gmaxwell: nope, that would be fast thanks to the index
3258 2011-06-03 20:33:17 <Optimo> I'm finding a bunch of examples
3259 2011-06-03 20:33:31 bk128 has joined
3260 2011-06-03 20:33:37 <tcatm> gmaxwell: I'm gzipping it. 970MB of ascii data
3261 2011-06-03 20:33:45 <gmaxwell> Not so terrible then.
3262 2011-06-03 20:34:05 <tcatm> That's only 1 or 2 months.. :)
3263 2011-06-03 20:34:27 <tcatm> I keep a full orderbook snapshot for every timestamp (but only if something has changed)
3264 2011-06-03 20:34:44 <midnightmagic> not just deltas then..
3265 2011-06-03 20:35:06 <tcatm> that would be a nightmare to reconstruct the orderbook from deltas
3266 2011-06-03 20:35:16 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3267 2011-06-03 20:35:40 <midnightmagic> find nearest snapshot, work backwards w/ deltas? yeah, I guess it's kind of unnecessary to go that far.
3268 2011-06-03 20:35:48 <tcatm> yup :)
3269 2011-06-03 20:36:17 <tcatm> once I figured out what to do with the data I can improve the storage method
3270 2011-06-03 20:36:29 <gmaxwell> 1/2 months is fine.
3271 2011-06-03 20:36:44 <midnightmagic> tcatm: if I can convince gmaxwell to forward it along to me, would you mind?
3272 2011-06-03 20:37:00 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: would you mind? :-)
3273 2011-06-03 20:37:06 <gmaxwell> I don't mind.
3274 2011-06-03 20:37:13 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: found it thanks. it's a good idea. so far i updated the price daily and even it was more profitable for the client, very few order were placed
3275 2011-06-03 20:37:49 <tcatm> Hmm
3276 2011-06-03 20:38:43 forexmasterja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3277 2011-06-03 20:39:16 <tcatm> Let's try something. I'll publish the url to the data in this channel as soon as this address 16KFvfTnxMhNMtUWfPptxMXdafxGjNSvW1 has received >= 1.41 BTC
3278 2011-06-03 20:39:34 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: split it?
3279 2011-06-03 20:39:38 <gmaxwell> hah. sure.
3280 2011-06-03 20:39:53 <midnightmagic> k. I'll do 0.71
3281 2011-06-03 20:40:18 <gmaxwell> fine with me. .70 from me.
3282 2011-06-03 20:41:11 ahihi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3283 2011-06-03 20:41:14 <midnightmagic> [13:33] <ljrbot> Txn 753893c8b0cd4d1990c47f01f9f7047a26c3fb007d373185de79d1f062200567: 16KFvfTnxMhNMtUWfPptxMXdafxGjNSvW1 0.71 BTC, 1U4nozGnD1QvsZekx3NnW6Eo9Xb9khBoR 0.53 BTC <-- that should be from me.
3284 2011-06-03 20:41:20 <tcatm> http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/orders.gz
3285 2011-06-03 20:41:54 <samfisher> jrmithdobbs: that's why i question bitcoin's ability to be traded as a currency. it seems more like a commodity to me
3286 2011-06-03 20:42:32 <jrmithdobbs> lol none of my btc are liquid atm (for obvious reasons) or I would have contributed to that ;P
3287 2011-06-03 20:42:43 <midnightmagic> oh, are you the bitcoincharts guy?
3288 2011-06-03 20:42:53 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3289 2011-06-03 20:42:53 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: ya he is
3290 2011-06-03 20:42:55 <midnightmagic> geez I'm clueless about people.
3291 2011-06-03 20:43:01 ahihi2 has joined
3292 2011-06-03 20:43:23 <tcatm> jrmithdobbs: the address can still receive coins in a few days :)
3293 2011-06-03 20:43:46 <gmaxwell> Seems like a nice simple bitcoin business would be to operate a ransom dropbox. ... which returns coins to their wallets automatically if the ransom is not met in the specified timeframe.
3294 2011-06-03 20:43:50 denisx has joined
3295 2011-06-03 20:44:00 <denisx> hi
3296 2011-06-03 20:44:04 <midnightmagic> that's..  a really, really good idea.
3297 2011-06-03 20:44:09 <midnightmagic> especially for high-value items.
3298 2011-06-03 20:44:20 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: when it makes you a fortune be sure to remember me. ;)
3299 2011-06-03 20:44:29 <midnightmagic> lol i will.
3300 2011-06-03 20:44:39 <denisx> I have two transaction in my bitcoind, one of them with 9 confirmations, but nothing shows up in the wallet. this is all on testnet
3301 2011-06-03 20:45:15 <gmaxwell> the drobox can escrow the payment too, if needed, so buyers are insulated against the risk of the file being nothing.
3302 2011-06-03 20:46:05 <midnightmagic> that might be tough. it would have to satisfy its promise and then the promise'r could start being weaselly about it.
3303 2011-06-03 20:46:21 <denisx> how long does a block generation need to show up in the wallet? even on testnet?
3304 2011-06-03 20:46:30 <midnightmagic> 120 blocks i think
3305 2011-06-03 20:46:37 <jrmithdobbs> ya 120
3306 2011-06-03 20:46:52 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: but there was a major split or something that happened in the last 24 hours on testnet
3307 2011-06-03 20:46:57 <jrmithdobbs> so your blocks may not even be valid
3308 2011-06-03 20:47:03 <denisx> and a normal transaction only needs 7?
3309 2011-06-03 20:47:09 <jrmithdobbs> 6
3310 2011-06-03 20:47:16 <midnightmagic> ooOOoo..  what happened?  time to printblocktree..
3311 2011-06-03 20:47:43 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: dunno someone just mentioned it earlier, i don't have a node on testnet atm
3312 2011-06-03 20:47:48 <denisx> how should I develop something whenn I need to wait for 120 confirmations?
3313 2011-06-03 20:48:08 <midnightmagic> denisx: set up your own testnet?
3314 2011-06-03 20:48:13 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: faucet or ya that
3315 2011-06-03 20:48:20 <denisx> midnightmagic: how do I that?
3316 2011-06-03 20:48:21 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: or ask diki to send you some
3317 2011-06-03 20:48:33 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: escrow sucks in general, so you charge for it and pay people to deal with it.
3318 2011-06-03 20:48:37 <midnightmagic> denisx: don't let your testnet connect to the irc channel, or connect to the hardcoded addresses.
3319 2011-06-03 20:48:41 <denisx> Iam working on a pool, so I need to test with generated blocks
3320 2011-06-03 20:48:52 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: he has some lying around from the stuff he's testing and his tests are for generation so i doubt he'd mind sending them
3321 2011-06-03 20:48:52 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: also, you blind the input payments using new random addresses.. so buyers can't see that other people have paid...
3322 2011-06-03 20:49:00 edgarallanpoe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3323 2011-06-03 20:49:08 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: and if too much is paid in you refund people according to what they paid in.
3324 2011-06-03 20:49:24 edgarallanpoe has joined
3325 2011-06-03 20:50:14 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm not getting your ransom dropbox idea
3326 2011-06-03 20:50:44 <jrmithdobbs> oh you mean escrow for coding bounties and such basically
3327 2011-06-03 20:50:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: there is a dropbox. It has a file people want. It will be released if X btc is paid to it by Y date, or all payments so far will be returned.
3328 2011-06-03 20:50:57 <denisx> midnightmagic: when I start fresh only with my own nodes, how is the first block generated?
3329 2011-06-03 20:51:16 <jrmithdobbs> oh ok, but ya, same idea could be used for code bounties if some ops were re-enabled ;P
3330 2011-06-03 20:51:33 <jrmithdobbs> keep people from filching on them
3331 2011-06-03 20:51:38 <midnightmagic> denisx: the genesis block is hard-coded. just start mining against it and your own block chain will grow.
3332 2011-06-03 20:51:53 <lizthegrey> gmaxwell: isn't that called kickstarter?
3333 2011-06-03 20:52:04 <diki> so my hash that must be swapped is little endian or big?
3334 2011-06-03 20:52:11 <midnightmagic> same idea as groupon too, looselyt.
3335 2011-06-03 20:52:15 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: also gitorious.com/freecoin/freecoin has some code to generate a new genesis block if you'd like
3336 2011-06-03 20:52:20 <midnightmagic> and blender et al have been doing it for years.
3337 2011-06-03 20:52:48 <denisx> midnightmagic: ah, simply by overtaking the genesis block with more hashpower, ok
3338 2011-06-03 20:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: erm, .org not .com
3339 2011-06-03 20:53:07 <gmaxwell> lizthegrey: well, I think I was mostly suggesting something simpler and generic. This is a file it can be unlocked with bitcoin from multiple people.
3340 2011-06-03 20:53:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: wikileaks meets anarchy meets capitalism
3341 2011-06-03 20:53:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i like it.
3342 2011-06-03 20:53:39 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3343 2011-06-03 20:53:55 <midnightmagic> denisx: no, it'll start you from the genesis block, and you can go from there with your own block chain. in fact, it might be fun to watch what happens if you ever reconnected to the main testnet. :-)
3344 2011-06-03 20:54:09 <gmaxwell> It might be code, it might be pictures, it might be my next album, whatever.
3345 2011-06-03 20:54:16 <midnightmagic> you have albums?
3346 2011-06-03 20:54:22 <gmaxwell> No. But you get the point.
3347 2011-06-03 20:54:32 <jrmithdobbs> ya i could see that being used to great effect for one of the LRP that a lot of muscians have been using for promotion lately
3348 2011-06-03 20:54:49 <midnightmagic> oh
3349 2011-06-03 20:54:54 <gmaxwell> Well, I could make one if you want to buy one. Would you buy 74 minutes of /dev/urandom ?  what if I fed it through some filters? ;)
3350 2011-06-03 20:55:09 Sylph has joined
3351 2011-06-03 20:55:19 <jrmithdobbs> or like the one that was supposed to get portal 2 released early
3352 2011-06-03 20:55:25 meLon has joined
3353 2011-06-03 20:55:29 <lizthegrey> although this kind of reminds me of the 'a game of thrones' board game and the wildings :)
3354 2011-06-03 20:55:35 <midnightmagic> i would buy it if you cleaned up some rare oldtime radio shows. :)
3355 2011-06-03 20:55:35 <jrmithdobbs> great way to cash in at the end of the game for the people running it
3356 2011-06-03 20:55:41 <gmaxwell> But basically a stupid dropbox might also serve the purpose of "I have a digital good I want to sell for bitcoin, but actually building a bitcoin store is too hard, and I'm not _that_ serious about this"
3357 2011-06-03 20:56:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i know someone that actually wrote some filters that generated semi-music-like output from filters on random video
3358 2011-06-03 20:56:02 <midnightmagic> there is a dropbox sort of thing like that already, but i don't think it does ransom..
3359 2011-06-03 20:56:05 <jrmithdobbs> haha
3360 2011-06-03 20:56:39 Teslah has joined
3361 2011-06-03 20:56:52 <gmaxwell> I could make a recoding of me reading all the block headers in a very nice monotone. I bet that would be popular.
3362 2011-06-03 20:56:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: or how about "I have implemented this feature for bitcoind. Here is a binary proving it works. Code will be mit licensed once ransom hits 50btc. Go."
3363 2011-06-03 20:57:06 <jrmithdobbs> err "mit licensed and released"
3364 2011-06-03 20:57:26 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: right— code randsoms might better be done anothe way, but a dropbox is sufficient.
3365 2011-06-03 20:57:41 <jrmithdobbs> problem is the person running the dropbox just made themselves a VERY high value target
3366 2011-06-03 20:57:56 <midnightmagic> i wonder if there's a way to prove you've got what the buyer is interested prior to the buy..
3367 2011-06-03 20:58:07 <lizthegrey> -> zero-knowledge proofs
3368 2011-06-03 20:58:11 <gmaxwell> Not generically.
3369 2011-06-03 20:58:19 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: ya that's the trickiest part
3370 2011-06-03 20:58:20 <midnightmagic> yeah but for media files, or text or whatever.
3371 2011-06-03 20:58:32 <gmaxwell> well, you can use a trusted third party for just about anything.
3372 2011-06-03 20:58:40 <jrmithdobbs> but that would be left up to the person offering the ransom'ed content
3373 2011-06-03 20:58:41 <jrmithdobbs> imho
3374 2011-06-03 20:58:54 <midnightmagic> fascinating sort of a problem.
3375 2011-06-03 20:59:18 <gmaxwell> Better to escrow the payment back to the supplier. And if the payees bitch then you bring in someone to sort it out.. out of the winner's pocket.
3376 2011-06-03 20:59:18 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3377 2011-06-03 20:59:28 * diki hopes to be close
3378 2011-06-03 20:59:34 <midnightmagic> there's some really sexy homomorphic stuff going on for remote computation. secure remote computing is really taking some great leaps forward.
3379 2011-06-03 20:59:48 <jrmithdobbs> the simple solution would be to get known/trusted people to sign off the validity of the content beforehand (trusted by both the "community" you're trying to sell to and trusted by you so they don't just leak it when you show it to them.)
3380 2011-06-03 20:59:54 <gmaxwell> The problem is that you're asking an AI-complete question.
3381 2011-06-03 21:00:06 <jrmithdobbs> right
3382 2011-06-03 21:00:10 <midnightmagic> I'm not familiar with that term.
3383 2011-06-03 21:00:16 <gmaxwell> "I have pictures of obama in the nude 500BTC" ... the software can tell it's a picture. :)
3384 2011-06-03 21:00:17 <jrmithdobbs> hence, i don't think it's worth solving for this use
3385 2011-06-03 21:00:38 <jrmithdobbs> i mean, if you think you can, awesome please do ;P
3386 2011-06-03 21:00:44 <gmaxwell> Actually being able to answer useful questions about generic things is equal to having a human level AI. ;)
3387 2011-06-03 21:00:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: tcatm ok, now work is *really* conflicting with previous pulls, we need to start work on 0.4.0 asap, 0.3.23 isnt hard to do if we just want to change fee and add connect timeout (which is already ready)
3388 2011-06-03 21:01:02 <midnightmagic> ah, yes.
3389 2011-06-03 21:01:20 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep, things are stacking up
3390 2011-06-03 21:01:29 <tcatm> what's holding .22 back? gavin?
3391 2011-06-03 21:01:32 <jgarzik> yep
3392 2011-06-03 21:01:33 <BlueMatt> more testing
3393 2011-06-03 21:01:48 <BlueMatt> is there anything stoping us from branching and working on 0.4.0 now?
3394 2011-06-03 21:02:20 <diki> you are free bluematt to do whatever you feel like doing
3395 2011-06-03 21:02:28 <midnightmagic> so diki hath said
3396 2011-06-03 21:02:35 <jrmithdobbs> gavin seemed pretty adamant about wanting to work on more core bugfix/reliability issues than the stuff currently slated for .4 earlier
3397 2011-06-03 21:02:40 <BlueMatt> was wondering if jgarzik tcatm sipa wanted to
3398 2011-06-03 21:03:04 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: true, but one of the things for 0.4.0 is walletclass
3399 2011-06-03 21:03:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: you're welcome to work on a merge tree
3400 2011-06-03 21:03:22 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but overall I'd say just be patient for a weekend
3401 2011-06-03 21:03:42 <BlueMatt> every day we wait, more crap piles up and starts begining to cause problems
3402 2011-06-03 21:03:52 <BlueMatt> wallet crypto + wallet class is already gonna be a pain
3403 2011-06-03 21:03:56 <jgarzik> it will unstick fairly quickly
3404 2011-06-03 21:04:28 ordex has left ()
3405 2011-06-03 21:05:08 <midnightmagic> ooh wow lookit that. 20953 -> 21052
3406 2011-06-03 21:05:19 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: ?
3407 2011-06-03 21:05:34 <BlueMatt> well maybe Ill spend all sunday debasing wallet crypter onto wallet class, hopefully other conflicts wont be quite as bad...
3408 2011-06-03 21:05:35 <midnightmagic> testnet. big embryonic blockchain fork
3409 2011-06-03 21:06:14 <midnightmagic> big chunks of it. looks almost like someone's trying to learn how to overtake
3410 2011-06-03 21:06:39 <midnightmagic> or just do a split
3411 2011-06-03 21:06:42 <jrmithdobbs> i thought about throwing up 5Ghash/s against a modified bitcoind that didn't change difficulty on an islanded testnet and then connecting it to the real testnet just to see what would happen
3412 2011-06-03 21:07:00 <midnightmagic> all your blocks wouldn't even make it past the acceptance i think
3413 2011-06-03 21:07:16 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: even if i got the chain significantly longer?
3414 2011-06-03 21:07:28 <midnightmagic> how? your blocks would by definition be invalid
3415 2011-06-03 21:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> you sure about that?
3416 2011-06-03 21:07:50 <roconnor> yay, now my signature verification code is faster than my sha256 code. ...  I guess i should start optimizing my sha256 code.
3417 2011-06-03 21:08:27 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: i'm not entirely sure they wouldn't be valid, that's why i was considering doing it
3418 2011-06-03 21:08:39 <midnightmagic> well, logically i can think of no way to stretch out the block chain in such a way to create a longer one.. except perhaps putting the timestamps wayyy into the future and skewing everyone's clock to accept yours perhaps.
3419 2011-06-03 21:08:59 <midnightmagic> "turns out it's 2050, guys"
3420 2011-06-03 21:09:05 gruez has joined
3421 2011-06-03 21:09:09 <midnightmagic> "and it's been difficulty 1 the whole time"
3422 2011-06-03 21:09:10 scottj has quit (Quit: leaving)
3423 2011-06-03 21:09:22 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: no you misunderstand what I wanted to do
3424 2011-06-03 21:09:35 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: islanded testnet starting with the genesis block.
3425 2011-06-03 21:09:42 <jrmithdobbs> ignoring the rest of the testnet chain
3426 2011-06-03 21:09:45 <midnightmagic> right.
3427 2011-06-03 21:09:50 <midnightmagic> that i figured.
3428 2011-06-03 21:09:57 pwrcycle has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3429 2011-06-03 21:10:00 <jrmithdobbs> but yes, some date fuckery to push it back in time would probably be required
3430 2011-06-03 21:10:11 <jrmithdobbs> easy enough. set clocks on said machines to same time as genesis creation
3431 2011-06-03 21:10:17 <midnightmagic> the genesis block is hard-coded. I don't recall whether testnet is hard-coded checkpointed.
3432 2011-06-03 21:10:42 <midnightmagic> right, and I assumed that you were free to manipulate the block-chain timestamps.
3433 2011-06-03 21:12:27 gjs278 has joined
3434 2011-06-03 21:12:30 <midnightmagic> but the definition of the current testnet is X blocks, per Y time. you would have to do X+1 blocks, and the only way I can think to do that reasonably without actually overtaking testnet would be to do X+1 blocks, per Y+z time, where z allowed you to use less power than real testnet. but then you have to convince testnet that the time is actually Y+z, at which point you can then inject your blockchain i think..
3435 2011-06-03 21:13:02 <midnightmagic> perhaps that's what's going on in those forks.
3436 2011-06-03 21:13:07 pfifo has joined
3437 2011-06-03 21:13:21 <midnightmagic> whoah, 20509!!
3438 2011-06-03 21:13:27 kers has left ("Leaving")
3439 2011-06-03 21:13:34 <midnightmagic> there's like 3 levels of fork
3440 2011-06-03 21:13:49 <midnightmagic> 4.. 5..
3441 2011-06-03 21:14:07 <midnightmagic> printblocktree should be an rpc call
3442 2011-06-03 21:14:54 pwrcycle has joined
3443 2011-06-03 21:15:36 <cyberdo> denisx: did you get hold of some coins?
3444 2011-06-03 21:15:53 <denisx> cyberdo: no, I try to setup my own testnet
3445 2011-06-03 21:16:03 <cyberdo> I'm playing with RPC-calls, but i'd like a few cents to test several accounts
3446 2011-06-03 21:16:13 <denisx> cyberdo: I don't need coins, I need to generate blocks
3447 2011-06-03 21:16:26 <cyberdo> oh.. ok
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3454 2011-06-03 21:17:37 <cyberdo> denisx: do you have a public IP? I think you and I could be able to create a testnet if I read the doc correctly.. just adding -connect=<the other ones IP>
3455 2011-06-03 21:17:43 <devrandom> BlueMatt:  sipa: just wanted to mention that tor latency can be much higher than 500ms
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3457 2011-06-03 21:18:48 <devrandom> somewhere between 10s and 30s would make sense
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3466 2011-06-03 21:22:19 <comboy> I'm sorry for asking here, but here are the thinkers, I was just wondering, if you have big btc/usd exchange, can you drive the price of bitcoin by just adding series of fake transactions in your database? please take it purely theoretically, would that be possible or am I missing something?
3467 2011-06-03 21:23:32 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
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3469 2011-06-03 21:24:53 <magnetron> comboy: anyone using the exchange would be able to tell, unless you actually bought their bitcoins
3470 2011-06-03 21:25:13 <diki> wellp..i am so close and yet i cant find any function to reverse the endiannes...
3471 2011-06-03 21:25:23 <comboy> magnetron: how? I have 2 fake accounts
3472 2011-06-03 21:25:48 <comboy> one is selling and the other is buying
3473 2011-06-03 21:25:55 <comboy> and by "I" I mean exchange owner
3474 2011-06-03 21:26:36 <midnightmagic> it would be hard to convince people who were selling @ $x when their market orders weren't actually being fulfilled but the price was rising.
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3479 2011-06-03 21:26:56 <midnightmagic> or buyers @ $x when the price was falling.
3480 2011-06-03 21:27:04 <midnightmagic> people would complain pretty bitterly about that.
3481 2011-06-03 21:27:15 <comboy> midnightmagic: yes, that's the hardest part, but it's about timing you could do it when trade volume is low
3482 2011-06-03 21:27:27 <midnightmagic> only within the gap
3483 2011-06-03 21:27:40 <comboy> midnightmagic: I'm not so sure, with dark pools you never know
3484 2011-06-03 21:27:45 <midnightmagic> (and that includes darkpool, too BTW)
3485 2011-06-03 21:28:12 <midnightmagic> no, they are more buyers/sellers in darkpool. you'd also have to avoid them entirely. so long as the gap is there, though, the exchange can fabricate whatever it wants.
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3487 2011-06-03 21:29:02 <comboy> hmm
3488 2011-06-03 21:29:32 <comboy> but look, orders stay the way they are
3489 2011-06-03 21:29:45 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3490 2011-06-03 21:29:56 <comboy> you just add peak somebody sold this and that for X, and you also can change current buy/sell price
3491 2011-06-03 21:30:39 <midnightmagic> only inside the gap or people would be scratching their heads why their order wasn't filled.
3492 2011-06-03 21:30:48 <comboy> but you're right, I see where there was gap in my thinking
3493 2011-06-03 21:30:59 <comboy> indeed there would be complaints
3494 2011-06-03 21:31:04 <midnightmagic> and *bitterly* complaining on the bitcoin forums.
3495 2011-06-03 21:31:21 <midnightmagic> it's a very, very powerful sign of manipulation when that happens.
3496 2011-06-03 21:31:27 <comboy> thanks, somehow I could not solve it inside my head
3497 2011-06-03 21:31:38 <midnightmagic> whiteboards help me a lot
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3501 2011-06-03 21:36:13 <comboy> yeah, it is so obvious, and I was thinking about it like for an hour...  whiteboard could be useful to bang my head against it
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3508 2011-06-03 21:39:37 <phantomcircuit> anybody know of a guaranteed way to lockup bitcoind?
3509 2011-06-03 21:39:44 kermit has joined
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3511 2011-06-03 21:40:28 <midnightmagic> attach to the process and then interrupt it?
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3515 2011-06-03 21:42:50 <GarrettB> is wallet encryption being added to the next version?
3516 2011-06-03 21:42:51 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, oh right duh
3517 2011-06-03 21:43:29 <vegard> I whipped up a fuzz tester for script eval. (it didn't find anything yet.) is this something that should be in the bitcoin repository?
3518 2011-06-03 21:44:01 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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3520 2011-06-03 21:44:52 <rynardt_> is it possible to integrate mtgox data with meta trader 4?
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3525 2011-06-03 21:52:33 <phantomcircuit> rynardt_, meta wat
3526 2011-06-03 21:53:09 <rynardt_> technical analysis platform
3527 2011-06-03 21:53:21 <rynardt_> with developer community
3528 2011-06-03 21:53:43 <rynardt_> mainly used for forex trading
3529 2011-06-03 21:54:03 <rynardt_> could be adapted for bitcoin?
3530 2011-06-03 21:54:45 devrandom has joined
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3534 2011-06-03 21:58:51 <diki> oh god....why isn't it working as i want it to...
3535 2011-06-03 22:00:56 lumos has joined
3536 2011-06-03 22:02:34 <diki> fuck...
3537 2011-06-03 22:02:47 icebrain has left ("WeeChat 0.3.5")
3538 2011-06-03 22:04:15 <rynardt_> diki what did you develop?
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3543 2011-06-03 22:12:30 <diki> if i can somehow place all of the data from my loop everything is piece of cake...
3544 2011-06-03 22:12:36 <diki> but damn, no way i can do that..
3545 2011-06-03 22:12:50 <diki> *place all of the data into one variable
3546 2011-06-03 22:12:55 <midnightmagic> uh. gmaxwell? can you md5 your orders.gz file and let me know what you got?
3547 2011-06-03 22:12:56 <diki> and then print it outside of the loop
3548 2011-06-03 22:14:24 lumos is now known as hornyman11
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3553 2011-06-03 22:18:34 <eamon> Does anyone know the agerage figure for orphaned blocks? I would appreciate if you could post the figure here... http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11685.0
3554 2011-06-03 22:19:00 Vez is now known as john_stew
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3557 2011-06-03 22:23:32 <diki> why the fuck is everything so complicated damnit...
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3573 2011-06-03 22:42:19 <sytse> mm, is it normal for the bitcoin database to grow into hundreds of megabytes these days?
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3576 2011-06-03 22:42:49 <sytse> well, my index is 100 and blk0001.dat 200 megabytes, but still
3577 2011-06-03 22:43:49 <io_error> sytse: Yes, it's currently around 450MB
3578 2011-06-03 22:45:35 <sytse> hm, so I should expect it to get several gigabytes within years..
3579 2011-06-03 22:46:41 <sytse> that would quickly grow to unusable proportions if it were to become used by a much larger amount of people (which it will)...
3580 2011-06-03 22:47:59 Moonies has joined
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3582 2011-06-03 22:50:06 <sytse> ah well, dropping the concept of storing the whole history in every client should be possible I guess (the history for a bitcoin you own is always authenticated with hashes tracing back to the original generated coins)
3583 2011-06-03 22:50:49 LtBrenton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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3586 2011-06-03 22:52:23 <sytse> not looking forward to the time when 0.01 BTC usually originates in thousands of generated bitcoins, requiring transfer of megabytes of data for every transfer of 0.01 BTC though ;-)
3587 2011-06-03 22:52:55 <rynardt_> agreed. I live in south africa and the size of the data files are putting people off
3588 2011-06-03 22:53:24 <rynardt_> uncapped internet is not standard around the world
3589 2011-06-03 22:53:30 num1-mac has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3590 2011-06-03 22:53:45 <rynardt_> and the time newcomers need to spend before they can do any trading
3591 2011-06-03 22:54:01 <sytse> rynardt_: I suppose the bitcoin devs will have to deal with this within the next year or so, as the size will blow up exponentially as more users will start doing more transfers
3592 2011-06-03 22:54:25 <rynardt_> id say deal with it within tis year
3593 2011-06-03 22:54:31 Schematografter has joined
3594 2011-06-03 22:54:34 <rynardt_> at the rate it is growing
3595 2011-06-03 22:54:40 <mtrlt> yep, they'll have to do some kinda supernode/light node system :p
3596 2011-06-03 22:54:50 tonik has quit (Quit: q)
3597 2011-06-03 22:54:53 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3598 2011-06-03 22:55:05 <rynardt_> the other option is to just use mybitcoin
3599 2011-06-03 22:55:11 <sytse> mtrlt: could be, or the responsibility of tracking the history could be put entirely on the owners of bitcoins
3600 2011-06-03 22:56:02 <rynardt_> are there any apps yet for blackberries. those devices are huge in developing countries where a lot of money never enters a bank account
3601 2011-06-03 22:56:19 <sytse> which would obviate the need for a smarter system of distributed storage, but would necessitate transfer of the entire history for every transfer of bitcoins, ie, direct communication between sender / recipient of bitcoins, which is a bit of a letdown
3602 2011-06-03 22:56:19 <rynardt_> bitcoin on a blackberry would be great
3603 2011-06-03 22:57:04 <sytse> hmm, interesting
3604 2011-06-03 22:57:12 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3605 2011-06-03 22:57:28 <rynardt_> mtn is making big money in ghana and kenya with mobile payment
3606 2011-06-03 22:57:36 <sytse> the only time I was in africa (last year) I never saw a blackberry, the country I was in was too poor to have anything fancy yet ;-)
3607 2011-06-03 22:57:43 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3608 2011-06-03 22:57:47 <rynardt_> and im not talking nfc
3609 2011-06-03 22:58:18 <sytse> everyone did have a mobile phone (including illiterates) but those were cheap models of at least 6 years old
3610 2011-06-03 22:58:54 <sytse> (guinea, btw)
3611 2011-06-03 23:00:28 <sytse> even my 2003 phone (worst phone ever made imho), which I used until wednesday when my new smartphone arrived, was very fancy by their standards =]
3612 2011-06-03 23:01:22 <sytse> rynardt_: what's mtn?
3613 2011-06-03 23:01:26 <rynardt_> i would not rate guinea as a leading african country
3614 2011-06-03 23:01:31 <sytse> lol
3615 2011-06-03 23:01:33 <sytse> indeed
3616 2011-06-03 23:01:35 <sytse> one of the poorest
3617 2011-06-03 23:01:36 <rynardt_> mtn mobile operator
3618 2011-06-03 23:01:43 james4k has quit (Quit: james4k)
3619 2011-06-03 23:01:43 Cusipzzz has joined
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3621 2011-06-03 23:01:49 <rynardt_> big in africa and middel east
3622 2011-06-03 23:02:23 <sytse> that a random typo or an afrikaans typo? ;p
3623 2011-06-03 23:02:35 <rynardt_> middle?
3624 2011-06-03 23:02:40 <sytse> yep
3625 2011-06-03 23:02:50 <rynardt_> yes in afrikaans middel
3626 2011-06-03 23:02:56 <sytse> I know, I'm dutch
3627 2011-06-03 23:02:57 <rynardt_> but thnk typo
3628 2011-06-03 23:03:03 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3629 2011-06-03 23:03:11 <rynardt_> its late here
3630 2011-06-03 23:03:13 <rynardt_> so
3631 2011-06-03 23:03:38 <diki> <rynardt_><-which country did you say you are from?
3632 2011-06-03 23:03:54 <rynardt_> so any interesting development with bitcoin happening on c# .net
3633 2011-06-03 23:03:55 <sytse> rynardt_: same time zone as where I live remember
3634 2011-06-03 23:04:17 <rynardt_> yep
3635 2011-06-03 23:04:57 <sytse> btw, does that nick have to do with your name, with reinaert de vos, or neither?
3636 2011-06-03 23:05:11 <sytse> (OT)
3637 2011-06-03 23:05:16 <rynardt_> yes my name
3638 2011-06-03 23:05:37 <sytse> ah
3639 2011-06-03 23:05:39 <rynardt_> but no not de vos
3640 2011-06-03 23:05:54 zamgo has quit ()
3641 2011-06-03 23:06:29 trekdanne has joined
3642 2011-06-03 23:06:30 <sytse> well, that would be weird
3643 2011-06-03 23:08:10 <sytse> (to have the name of a fox in an old story based on an ancient greek fable)
3644 2011-06-03 23:08:40 <rynardt_> dont know it
3645 2011-06-03 23:08:48 <sytse> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynard
3646 2011-06-03 23:09:01 <sipa> van den vos reynaerde!
3647 2011-06-03 23:09:04 <sytse> uh
3648 2011-06-03 23:09:05 <sytse> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_den_vos_Reynaerde
3649 2011-06-03 23:09:29 <sytse> it's a famous fable in middle dutch
3650 2011-06-03 23:09:54 <sytse> (rijnaart isn't used as a name anymore here in the netherlands)
3651 2011-06-03 23:09:57 pyros1 has joined
3652 2011-06-03 23:10:38 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3653 2011-06-03 23:11:50 <rynardt_> " Reynard, an anthropomorphic red fox and trickster figure."
3654 2011-06-03 23:11:59 <rynardt_> hehe i see why
3655 2011-06-03 23:13:35 <denisx> what means "Flushing wallet.dat" in the debug.log
3656 2011-06-03 23:15:04 <sytse> rynardt_: btw, the situation on android is far from ideal too atm, the apps available either send 0.01 BTC to the maker of the app for each transaction, or crash whenever you blink your eyes, and none of them is really very good in terms of functionality
3657 2011-06-03 23:15:10 <sytse> but that'll all polish out in time I guess
3658 2011-06-03 23:16:13 pfifo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3659 2011-06-03 23:16:17 karnac has joined
3660 2011-06-03 23:18:34 <sytse> android's a mess anyway
3661 2011-06-03 23:18:42 forexmasterja has joined
3662 2011-06-03 23:19:18 gruez has joined
3663 2011-06-03 23:20:04 <sytse> anyway, nn, it's way too late even for a friday :)
3664 2011-06-03 23:20:13 <rynardt_> dont tell my iphone is great
3665 2011-06-03 23:20:36 <sytse> lol
3666 2011-06-03 23:20:59 <sytse> your job, too, apparently, that you can pay for one ;-)
3667 2011-06-03 23:21:33 <sytse> ah well, my new htc incredible s (awesome phone) was expensive too..
3668 2011-06-03 23:21:46 pfifo has joined
3669 2011-06-03 23:21:49 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3670 2011-06-03 23:22:11 gjs278 has joined
3671 2011-06-03 23:22:51 <rynardt_> no i use blackberry, just becuase mobile ineternet is expensive in south africa. we get uncapped data plan with it for about $9
3672 2011-06-03 23:23:25 <rynardt_> using an android with the same amount of data would cost more than double per month
3673 2011-06-03 23:24:10 pfifo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3674 2011-06-03 23:24:32 Infraworst has joined
3675 2011-06-03 23:25:53 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
3676 2011-06-03 23:25:53 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":14.3,"low":10.55,"vol":72849,"buy":13.9999,"sell":14,"last":14}}
3677 2011-06-03 23:27:42 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
3678 2011-06-03 23:28:03 james_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3679 2011-06-03 23:28:05 pfifo has joined
3680 2011-06-03 23:28:05 pfifo has quit (Client Quit)
3681 2011-06-03 23:28:17 <Infraworst> hi
3682 2011-06-03 23:28:26 <Infraworst> so how does one go about setting up an exchange?
3683 2011-06-03 23:28:56 <diki> try #bitcoin-otc
3684 2011-06-03 23:31:11 regulate has joined
3685 2011-06-03 23:31:52 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3686 2011-06-03 23:33:04 gruez has quit (Quit: Return false;)
3687 2011-06-03 23:33:14 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, you there?
3688 2011-06-03 23:33:28 <Infraworst> diki, they don't seem to care much
3689 2011-06-03 23:36:17 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,seen MagicalTux
3690 2011-06-03 23:36:18 <gribble> Error: "bc,seen" is not a valid command.
3691 2011-06-03 23:36:22 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen MagicalTux
3692 2011-06-03 23:36:23 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 10 hours, 54 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> pong
3693 2011-06-03 23:36:27 <phantomcircuit> bah
3694 2011-06-03 23:36:45 d1234_ has joined
3695 2011-06-03 23:37:37 sethsethseth____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3696 2011-06-03 23:37:55 sethsethseth___ has joined
3697 2011-06-03 23:38:47 <Infraworst> to be clearer, I want to know about setting up a marketplace
3698 2011-06-03 23:38:53 <Infraworst> not a transaction
3699 2011-06-03 23:39:17 d1234 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3700 2011-06-03 23:39:21 james has joined
3701 2011-06-03 23:39:48 james is now known as Guest64148
3702 2011-06-03 23:40:38 Gunrun` has joined
3703 2011-06-03 23:40:57 <Gunrun`> Is this the channel where I might get some technical support for the client or something?
3704 2011-06-03 23:42:55 gruez has joined
3705 2011-06-03 23:43:15 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3706 2011-06-03 23:43:23 <sipa> Gunrun`: if you ask your question. maybe :)
3707 2011-06-03 23:43:53 <Gunrun`> My client isn't connecting to any nodes. I am on a limited connection and if I forward ports my entire upstream is consumed
3708 2011-06-03 23:44:01 <Gunrun`> what can I do?
3709 2011-06-03 23:44:08 scott` has quit (Quit: scott`)
3710 2011-06-03 23:44:28 <sipa> use -connect=<IP> -noirc -nolisten
3711 2011-06-03 23:44:39 <Gunrun`> what should I put in IP?
3712 2011-06-03 23:44:52 <sipa> with IP the IP of a node you trust (eg, see the fallback nodes list on the wiki)
3713 2011-06-03 23:45:18 <sipa> you can use -addnode=<IP> as well
3714 2011-06-03 23:45:32 <sipa> so it still tries to connect to 8 other nodes
3715 2011-06-03 23:45:32 <Gunrun`> I shall try that I suppose
3716 2011-06-03 23:45:59 <Gunrun`> can I use adnode repeatedly?
3717 2011-06-03 23:46:04 <Gunrun`> or maybe with ;s?
3718 2011-06-03 23:46:05 regulate has left ()
3719 2011-06-03 23:47:05 <denisx> what do I need to isolate my own testnet? I thought a connect= line and noirc=1 should be enough
3720 2011-06-03 23:47:09 Infraworst has quit (Quit: It's time to man up and end this)
3721 2011-06-03 23:47:44 <Gunrun`> sipa it still says 0 connections?
3722 2011-06-03 23:48:50 <sipa> which commandline did you use?
3723 2011-06-03 23:48:55 <phantomcircuit> Gunrun`, windows or linux?
3724 2011-06-03 23:49:00 joepie94 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3725 2011-06-03 23:49:03 <Gunrun`> Windows, 7, x64
3726 2011-06-03 23:49:24 <phantomcircuit> http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/bitcoin-windows.zip
3727 2011-06-03 23:49:31 <Gunrun`> What's this?
3728 2011-06-03 23:49:54 <sipa> their own version of bitcoin, with a patch that improves the connection
3729 2011-06-03 23:49:57 <sipa> time
3730 2011-06-03 23:50:17 <Gunrun`> "their" own?
3731 2011-06-03 23:50:23 <Gunrun`> its trustworthy though?
3732 2011-06-03 23:50:29 <afed> bitcoins
3733 2011-06-03 23:50:42 <phantomcircuit> Gunrun`, yes
3734 2011-06-03 23:50:46 <MasterChief> who rund bitcoin consultancy
3735 2011-06-03 23:51:00 <phantomcircuit> me
3736 2011-06-03 23:51:03 <phantomcircuit> and others
3737 2011-06-03 23:51:10 <phantomcircuit> i built that loverly binary
3738 2011-06-03 23:51:15 <sipa> Gunrun`: which command line did you use, exactly?
3739 2011-06-03 23:51:20 <MasterChief> wait genjix?
3740 2011-06-03 23:51:21 <phantomcircuit> took fucking all day too
3741 2011-06-03 23:51:25 <Gunrun`> C:\Bitcoin\bitcoin.exe -server -addnode=64.22.103.150 -addnode=178.79.147.99
3742 2011-06-03 23:51:26 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, yes
3743 2011-06-03 23:51:29 <Gunrun`> is my entire command line
3744 2011-06-03 23:51:43 <phantomcircuit> -addnode doesn't help you need to do -connect
3745 2011-06-03 23:51:44 <MasterChief> dude tell genjix to clear my goddamn 200 into britcoin
3746 2011-06-03 23:51:46 <Gunrun`> phantomcircuit is that your website? might I suggest the design is slightly awful
3747 2011-06-03 23:52:03 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, how long you been waiting?
3748 2011-06-03 23:52:12 <sipa> Gunrun`: try deleting your addr.dat file, and use -noirc and -nolisten
3749 2011-06-03 23:52:19 <MasterChief> 1 day
3750 2011-06-03 23:52:21 <sipa> or use -connect
3751 2011-06-03 23:52:21 <MasterChief> 1 day too long
3752 2011-06-03 23:52:40 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, he does them manually dude
3753 2011-06-03 23:52:53 <MasterChief> i know
3754 2011-06-03 23:52:53 <Gunrun`> do i need to be generating to pull down blocks?
3755 2011-06-03 23:53:01 <MasterChief> cant you automate that?
3756 2011-06-03 23:53:16 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, so you're mad that a service without any fee that requires significant effort is taking too long?
3757 2011-06-03 23:53:19 <phantomcircuit> are you for real
3758 2011-06-03 23:53:28 <MasterChief> no im not really mad
3759 2011-06-03 23:53:38 <MasterChief> well im mad that i didnt deposit sooner
3760 2011-06-03 23:54:13 <MasterChief> im angry that bank wire takes days to clear goddamn banks
3761 2011-06-03 23:54:27 <MasterChief> but im happy with britcoin :)
3762 2011-06-03 23:54:44 <Gunrun`> C:\Bitcoin\bitcoin.exe -server -connect=64.22.103.150 will it still take a while to connect sipa?
3763 2011-06-03 23:55:00 <sipa> Gunrun`: that should work, if that node is up
3764 2011-06-03 23:55:08 <Gunrun`> hmm
3765 2011-06-03 23:55:29 <Gunrun`> well I can ping it
3766 2011-06-03 23:55:30 <sipa> doesn't seem to be
3767 2011-06-03 23:55:32 Gunrun` is now known as Gunrun
3768 2011-06-03 23:55:36 <sipa> doesn't listen on 8333
3769 2011-06-03 23:55:47 <Gunrun> maybe I need to use the url
3770 2011-06-03 23:56:21 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3771 2011-06-03 23:56:27 <phantomcircuit> Gunrun, lol just download the btc consultancy client
3772 2011-06-03 23:56:32 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3773 2011-06-03 23:56:38 <phantomcircuit> you'll have 8 connections in seconds
3774 2011-06-03 23:56:47 <Gunrun> phantomcircuit can i use poclbm with it?
3775 2011-06-03 23:56:58 <phantomcircuit> yes
3776 2011-06-03 23:57:16 <MasterChief> 10.6mb?
3777 2011-06-03 23:57:36 <Gunrun> so do i just drop it into my bitcoin directory?
3778 2011-06-03 23:57:36 <phantomcircuit> static binaries of bitcoin.exe and bitcoind.exe
3779 2011-06-03 23:57:47 <phantomcircuit> Gunrun, just download and run
3780 2011-06-03 23:58:07 gruez has quit (Quit: Return false;)
3781 2011-06-03 23:58:15 <MasterChief> what did you change with the networking
3782 2011-06-03 23:58:43 <phantomcircuit> i applied my non blocking connect with timeout patch
3783 2011-06-03 23:59:33 <MasterChief> so this is basically a fork?
3784 2011-06-03 23:59:55 <Gunrun> there appears to be no generate bitcoins button phantomcircuit