1 2011-06-05 00:02:11 techgeek has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@64.253.2.80.dyn-cm-pool72.pool.hargray.net|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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   3 2011-06-05 00:05:22 <roconnor> sipa: in about 3 hours of cpu time on my laptop I've verfied upto around block 101228 (2011-01-06 01:15:15)
   4 2011-06-05 00:06:00 PirateMarmalade has joined
   5 2011-06-05 00:06:05 <roconnor> which is better than I was expecting.
   6 2011-06-05 00:06:17 <lfm> that seems a bit slow to me
   7 2011-06-05 00:06:27 <roconnor> Oh I'm sure it is
   8 2011-06-05 00:09:06 kermit has joined
   9 2011-06-05 00:11:35 <heistplay> ;;bc,gen 200000000
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  15 2011-06-05 00:13:03 <EvanR> i start bitcoin, it has zero connections forever :(
  16 2011-06-05 00:13:11 <EvanR> stuck on block 128631
  17 2011-06-05 00:13:27 <gjs278> port forward 8333
  18 2011-06-05 00:14:03 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
  19 2011-06-05 00:14:11 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd
  20 2011-06-05 00:14:11 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
  21 2011-06-05 00:15:39 <heistplay> ;;bc,gen 200000000
  22 2011-06-05 00:16:00 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
  23 2011-06-05 00:16:34 <gjs278> EvanR if portforwarding fails, you can try making a new .bitcoin folder, I did that once when I appeared to be "stuck"
  24 2011-06-05 00:16:41 <gjs278> just make sure you keep your wallet of course
  25 2011-06-05 00:16:57 <EvanR> ill try that
  26 2011-06-05 00:16:58 <jgarzik> EvanR: enable upnp or port forwarding on your router
  27 2011-06-05 00:17:08 <EvanR> ill try upnp
  28 2011-06-05 00:17:15 <gjs278> upnp make sure your router is setup to use it
  29 2011-06-05 00:17:18 <EvanR> but i havent needed to do this until now
  30 2011-06-05 00:17:48 <EvanR> any particular file in .bitcoin which is a cache of connections or something
  31 2011-06-05 00:18:38 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|Sleep
  32 2011-06-05 00:18:57 <gjs278> holy crap my debug.log is 400mb
  33 2011-06-05 00:19:01 <gjs278> get this bullshit out of here
  34 2011-06-05 00:19:13 RBecker has joined
  35 2011-06-05 00:19:28 <gjs278> can there please be an option to turn off debug.log or at least let me set it to /dev/null
  36 2011-06-05 00:19:32 <gjs278> if there isnt already
  37 2011-06-05 00:19:34 <gjs278> I really don't want it
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  43 2011-06-05 00:23:45 <EvanR_> UHG
  44 2011-06-05 00:23:51 <EvanR_> silenceisdefeat
  45 2011-06-05 00:23:58 <EvanR_> port forward worked
  46 2011-06-05 00:24:04 <EvanR_> its finally downloading blocks
  47 2011-06-05 00:24:14 <EvanR_> damn slowly
  48 2011-06-05 00:25:58 PirateMarmalade has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  51 2011-06-05 00:28:23 EvanR_ is now known as EvanR
  52 2011-06-05 00:28:33 <EvanR> it downloaded about 2 blocks and is stuck again
  53 2011-06-05 00:28:38 <EvanR> 11 connections
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  55 2011-06-05 00:31:45 <gjs278> wow
  56 2011-06-05 00:32:44 <EvanR> nevermind it went to 128670 so fast i thought it was stuck
  57 2011-06-05 00:32:46 <Diablo-D3> sometimes it does that
  58 2011-06-05 00:32:52 <Diablo-D3> LOL
  59 2011-06-05 00:33:27 <EvanR> but something odd still remains, slush notification from today that i got 10.09 to address 14sFG7xFVmef9298vBxvhDWzjYyuNZnYNc
  60 2011-06-05 00:33:37 <EvanR> but its not showing up in my bitcoin gui
  61 2011-06-05 00:33:52 <EvanR> block exploring now
  62 2011-06-05 00:33:52 <sipa> maybe it's not included in a block yet
  63 2011-06-05 00:34:24 <EvanR> it is
  64 2011-06-05 00:34:49 <slush> people are reporting me almost every day that they don't see payouts in their gui
  65 2011-06-05 00:34:54 <slush> but it is in BE already...
  66 2011-06-05 00:35:19 <EvanR> its the same address ive been getting payments to for a while
  67 2011-06-05 00:35:23 <EvanR> i see the last one on 31
  68 2011-06-05 00:35:42 PirateMarmalade has joined
  69 2011-06-05 00:35:43 <EvanR> restarting client
  70 2011-06-05 00:35:44 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
  71 2011-06-05 00:35:44 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":18.998,"low":14.04,"vol":45737,"buy":18.1004,"sell":18.2,"last":18.2}}
  72 2011-06-05 00:36:26 <EvanR> slush: is payout a special transaction, distributed all at once?
  73 2011-06-05 00:36:45 <slush> yes, it is 'sendmany'
  74 2011-06-05 00:37:05 <slush> with last official client, you should see those txes immediately
  75 2011-06-05 00:37:25 <EvanR> is this new?
  76 2011-06-05 00:37:55 <slush> .21 i think
  77 2011-06-05 00:38:00 <Cusipzzz> sendmany is cool
  78 2011-06-05 00:38:03 Juffo-Wup has joined
  79 2011-06-05 00:38:07 <EvanR> i mean did you just start using it
  80 2011-06-05 00:38:15 <EvanR> so maybe that explains why its not showing up in my client
  81 2011-06-05 00:38:28 <slush> no, I'm using sendmany for many weeks on the pool
  82 2011-06-05 00:38:39 <EvanR> uhg
  83 2011-06-05 00:38:51 <EvanR> now i dont know whats real
  84 2011-06-05 00:38:52 <diki> what?
  85 2011-06-05 00:38:58 <diki> but i already set my threshold
  86 2011-06-05 00:39:00 <diki> soon it will pay me
  87 2011-06-05 00:39:05 <diki> if it wont...what do i do?
  88 2011-06-05 00:40:08 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  89 2011-06-05 00:40:18 <sipa> EvanR: which version are you using?
  90 2011-06-05 00:40:25 <slush> on the pool side, everything is working perfect
  91 2011-06-05 00:40:33 <EvanR> 0.3.19
  92 2011-06-05 00:40:34 <slush> coins are distributed and they appear in blockexplorer
  93 2011-06-05 00:40:41 <slush> EvanR: update to .21
  94 2011-06-05 00:41:03 <sipa> it should show up in .19 as well
  95 2011-06-05 00:41:09 <sipa> i don't see why it shouldn't
  96 2011-06-05 00:41:25 <EvanR> did i lose keys to some addresses when i was swapping wallets?
  97 2011-06-05 00:41:29 <slush> sipa: yes, but only .21 displays also unconfirmed tx
  98 2011-06-05 00:41:34  has joined
  99 2011-06-05 00:41:39 <sipa> slush: hmm, really?
 100 2011-06-05 00:41:44 <slush> previous version display transaction with at least one confirmation
 101 2011-06-05 00:41:51 <slush> sipa: really, tested on people :)
 102 2011-06-05 00:42:04 <EvanR> this is tx 6c0df21a5fa1f4210d64a36117d290bbefca8138bf855be7bb6b0bea7e8e72d6
 103 2011-06-05 00:42:07 <sipa> EvanR: swapping wallets... what did you do?
 104 2011-06-05 00:42:14 <EvanR> 128560
 105 2011-06-05 00:42:16 <EvanR> ancient history
 106 2011-06-05 00:42:20 <slush> EvanR: did you tried rescan?
 107 2011-06-05 00:42:40 <slush> not sure if rescan is in .19
 108 2011-06-05 00:42:48 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 109 2011-06-05 00:42:48 <sipa> in 0.3.19 you need to delete and redownload block chain if you want to swap wallets
 110 2011-06-05 00:42:50 <EvanR> sipa: backed up my wallet to various places, with gpg
 111 2011-06-05 00:42:53 <EvanR> ok
 112 2011-06-05 00:42:59 <EvanR> i rmed the wallet
 113 2011-06-05 00:43:01 <EvanR> opened bitcoin
 114 2011-06-05 00:43:05 <EvanR> it generated a blank one
 115 2011-06-05 00:43:05 <sipa> in 0.3.20 you can use -rescan after a wallet swap
 116 2011-06-05 00:43:08 <EvanR> then i put it back
 117 2011-06-05 00:43:28 <sipa> in 0.3.21 wallet swap should be supported automically except in a very specific edge case
 118 2011-06-05 00:43:33 * slush wants 'rescan' button in gui
 119 2011-06-05 00:43:40 <sipa> slush: no need
 120 2011-06-05 00:43:49 <slush> how so?
 121 2011-06-05 00:43:58 <sipa> there are almost no situation in which -rescan is still useful
 122 2011-06-05 00:43:59 <slush> .21 detects that wallet was changed?
 123 2011-06-05 00:44:01 <sipa> yes
 124 2011-06-05 00:44:08 <slush> oh, didn't know, cool
 125 2011-06-05 00:44:14 * sipa wrote that
 126 2011-06-05 00:44:22 <slush> even better than rescan button :)
 127 2011-06-05 00:45:17 <sipa> but if you send out a tx, stop client before it is confirmed, make a backup, wait till it is confirmed, and then restore the backup... your tx will remain unconfirmed forever in the client
 128 2011-06-05 00:45:32 <Xenland> If your following the project dev of Mining Pool 2 front-end software you can get the latest version here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10617.0
 129 2011-06-05 00:45:32 <EvanR> i opened bitcoin
 130 2011-06-05 00:45:34 <EvanR> .21
 131 2011-06-05 00:45:34 <Xenland> peace im out
 132 2011-06-05 00:45:41 Xenland has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 133 2011-06-05 00:45:48 <EvanR> no +10.09
 134 2011-06-05 00:45:49 <sipa> EvanR: ok, start it with -rescan
 135 2011-06-05 00:45:52 <EvanR> ok
 136 2011-06-05 00:46:00 <sipa> if you upgrade from a previous version, it's still necessary
 137 2011-06-05 00:46:37 BlueMattBot has joined
 138 2011-06-05 00:46:46 <EvanR> i see it now
 139 2011-06-05 00:46:52 <EvanR> 114 confirmations
 140 2011-06-05 00:46:59 <sipa> good
 141 2011-06-05 00:47:03 <EvanR> was scared for a minute
 142 2011-06-05 00:47:10 <EvanR> was the first tx i did without the client running
 143 2011-06-05 00:47:14 <EvanR> thought i did something wrong
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 149 2011-06-05 00:52:15 <diki> you xen
 150 2011-06-05 00:52:25 <diki> What does this part mean "Blocks from brute force attacks with out annoying users with captchas"?
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 163 2011-06-05 01:12:31 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: sipa tcatm  NACK 0.3.22, getting reproduceable assertion fails in windows, needs more examination in the morning
 164 2011-06-05 01:14:15 sethsethseth___ has joined
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 166 2011-06-05 01:15:15 dD0T has joined
 167 2011-06-05 01:15:44 <lfm> bluematt note copyright 2009-2010 ?
 168 2011-06-05 01:15:56 sethsethseth___ has quit (Client Quit)
 169 2011-06-05 01:16:18 <lfm> in gui help window?
 170 2011-06-05 01:17:17 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 171 2011-06-05 01:17:29 <diki> lol
 172 2011-06-05 01:17:32 <diki> use the time
 173 2011-06-05 01:18:50 Netsniper has joined
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 175 2011-06-05 01:20:14 io_error has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 176 2011-06-05 01:20:24 Doc_M has joined
 177 2011-06-05 01:20:39 <diki> aka time(NULL)
 178 2011-06-05 01:20:41 <Doc_M> hey folks
 179 2011-06-05 01:21:18  has quit (Netsniper|!~se@adsl-69-208-134-116.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 180 2011-06-05 01:22:53 <diki> bluematt:it is morning
 181 2011-06-05 01:22:59 <diki> it's 4AM here
 182 2011-06-05 01:23:22 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 186 2011-06-05 01:27:20 <lfm> 7:20pm here
 187 2011-06-05 01:27:53 BitterTea has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 191 2011-06-05 01:31:10 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 192 2011-06-05 01:31:31 <diki> any formulas for calculating worker speed and total pool speed?
 193 2011-06-05 01:32:34 BERRI has joined
 194 2011-06-05 01:33:36 MartianW has joined
 195 2011-06-05 01:33:48 <somecoiner> any word on 0.3.22 ?
 196 2011-06-05 01:34:11 <lfm> somecoiner: 0.3.22 any moment now
 197 2011-06-05 01:34:20 mmoya has joined
 198 2011-06-05 01:34:22 <somecoiner> lfm: thanks
 199 2011-06-05 01:34:38 <lfm> diki which pool?
 200 2011-06-05 01:34:59 <lfm> for your own pool?
 201 2011-06-05 01:35:17 <diki> yup
 202 2011-06-05 01:35:39 <diki> i tried a formula sipa gave me for toal pool speed, but for one miner it showed like 500 mhash
 203 2011-06-05 01:35:49 <diki> while i actually do 290mhash
 204 2011-06-05 01:36:00 <lfm> hash/s = number of shares found/s * difficulty * 2^32
 205 2011-06-05 01:36:00 PirateMarmalade has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 206 2011-06-05 01:36:20 <diki> is that for pool speed or miner speed?
 207 2011-06-05 01:36:36 <mtrlt> both
 208 2011-06-05 01:36:51 <mtrlt> what's the difference? when you calculate pool speed, you calculate all shares :p
 209 2011-06-05 01:36:55 <lfm> well if it is shares found for the pool then its the pool, if it is shares for the miner then its the miner
 210 2011-06-05 01:36:59 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 211 2011-06-05 01:37:00 <mtrlt> but when you calculate miner speed, you only calculate the miner's shares
 212 2011-06-05 01:37:07 torsthaldo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 213 2011-06-05 01:37:12 <diki> how accurate is it?
 214 2011-06-05 01:37:13 PirateMarmalade has joined
 215 2011-06-05 01:37:22 <mtrlt> as accurate as can be
 216 2011-06-05 01:37:38 <diki> well i've seen pools display near real speed
 217 2011-06-05 01:37:47 <diki> with a small offset by 10-15 mhash per worker
 218 2011-06-05 01:37:48 <mtrlt> they use like 3 hour windows
 219 2011-06-05 01:37:52 <lfm> diki: well thats what they do
 220 2011-06-05 01:38:29 <diki> the formula sipa gave me was the shares in the last 30 minutes divided by 30 multiplied by 4294
 221 2011-06-05 01:38:53 <lfm> yup, same thing just convert seconds to minutes
 222 2011-06-05 01:39:52 <lfm> the 4294 would depend on the difficulty
 223 2011-06-05 01:40:03 <luke-jr> share difficulty, not real difficulty
 224 2011-06-05 01:40:08 <mtrlt> the 4294 tries to be 2^32 / 1000000
 225 2011-06-05 01:40:31 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 226 2011-06-05 01:41:24 <lfm> ya, its the same for real difficulty tho if you use blocks/s
 227 2011-06-05 01:41:42 PirateMarmalade has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 228 2011-06-05 01:42:22 rynardt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 229 2011-06-05 01:42:25 <jgarzik> 0.3.22 tagged, but builds are probably in 12-24 hours
 230 2011-06-05 01:42:47 <mtrlt> kewl
 231 2011-06-05 01:42:53 <luke-jr> jgarzik: happen to have any speculation why a pool would get half as many blocks as its shares show it should have
 232 2011-06-05 01:42:55 <luke-jr> ?
 233 2011-06-05 01:43:06 <luke-jr> jgarzik: source tarball?
 234 2011-06-05 01:43:11 <mtrlt> i speculate bad luck :p
 235 2011-06-05 01:43:20 <jgarzik> luke-jr: variance
 236 2011-06-05 01:43:23 <lfm> luke is someone withholding winning blocks?
 237 2011-06-05 01:43:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that much? over 2 weeks?
 238 2011-06-05 01:43:38 <luke-jr> lfm: even if they were, it seems way too wrong
 239 2011-06-05 01:43:51 <luke-jr> lfm: unless it was a large botnet withholding
 240 2011-06-05 01:43:58 <mtrlt> luke-jr: it was only 8 blocks. variance.
 241 2011-06-05 01:44:01 <lfm> ya it would be like half your major users or something
 242 2011-06-05 01:44:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: source tarball at https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.22/ but don't tell anyone yet :)  making the release announcement when the builds are ready.
 243 2011-06-05 01:44:20 <luke-jr> jgarzik: does that mean no ebuild?
 244 2011-06-05 01:44:41 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I don't know how to answer that question
 245 2011-06-05 01:44:56 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is it ok if Gentoo users get it as part of their updates? :P
 246 2011-06-05 01:45:14 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 247 2011-06-05 01:45:15 <jgarzik> luke-jr: wait for release announcement and build validation, please
 248 2011-06-05 01:45:20 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: we can calculate the odds of it happening by chance....
 249 2011-06-05 01:45:26 <diki> i shall make the announcement then
 250 2011-06-05 01:45:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: how? I got some negative number
 251 2011-06-05 01:45:29 <diki> :P
 252 2011-06-05 01:45:48 <mtrlt> gmaxwell to the rescue, he seems to know statistics math :p
 253 2011-06-05 01:45:53 <diki> dont forget for a windows binary!!
 254 2011-06-05 01:46:21 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 8 blocks in 6125031 shares
 255 2011-06-05 01:46:36 <luke-jr> diki: nobody uses Windows anymore, silly
 256 2011-06-05 01:46:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: k. lemme check.
 257 2011-06-05 01:46:41 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
 258 2011-06-05 01:46:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128682 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 341 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 17 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 544652.47371463
 259 2011-06-05 01:47:01 * diki is still naked cause it's damn hot
 260 2011-06-05 01:47:04 <mtrlt> luke-jr: weren't some of the shares in another diff thant he current?
 261 2011-06-05 01:47:07 PirateMarmalade has joined
 262 2011-06-05 01:47:12 <lfm> luke share diff = 1.0?
 263 2011-06-05 01:47:14 <luke-jr> mtrlt: yes, I factored that in
 264 2011-06-05 01:47:21 <mtrlt> but you didn't tell gmaxwell :p
 265 2011-06-05 01:47:26 <luke-jr> lfm: 0., which is some insanely long decimal number
 266 2011-06-05 01:47:32 <devrandom1> anyone know if deepbit still being ddos'ed?
 267 2011-06-05 01:47:34 <luke-jr> but almost 1
 268 2011-06-05 01:47:35 <mtrlt> or did you factor that in in the number. oh.
 269 2011-06-05 01:47:56 denisx has joined
 270 2011-06-05 01:48:17 <afed> did we reach ec2 viability yet?
 271 2011-06-05 01:48:22 <afed> at $18/usd
 272 2011-06-05 01:48:27 <mtrlt> probably not
 273 2011-06-05 01:48:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: whats the actual share difficulty?
 274 2011-06-05 01:49:17 KingMartin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 275 2011-06-05 01:49:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: approx 0.9999847412109375
 276 2011-06-05 01:49:38 <lfm> so youd expect 14 blocks, you got 8
 277 2011-06-05 01:49:40 <mtrlt> 65535/65536 , right?
 278 2011-06-05 01:49:43 <luke-jr> lfm: right
 279 2011-06-05 01:49:52 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 280 2011-06-05 01:50:07 <luke-jr> mtrlt: that's a close estimate
 281 2011-06-05 01:50:18 <mtrlt> hmm
 282 2011-06-05 01:50:19 <mtrlt> true
 283 2011-06-05 01:50:36 <mtrlt> how about (2^224-1)/2^256 :P
 284 2011-06-05 01:50:49 <meLon> deepbit is functioning right now devrandom1
 285 2011-06-05 01:50:58 <luke-jr> meLon: so is Eligius
 286 2011-06-05 01:51:05 <mtrlt> and add 65535*2^208 somewhere there too..
 287 2011-06-05 01:51:10 <mtrlt> then it'll be absolutely correct :P
 288 2011-06-05 01:51:24 <devrandom1> meLon: thanks, good to know
 289 2011-06-05 01:51:29 <luke-jr> mtrlt: XD
 290 2011-06-05 01:52:07 <meLon> Thanks for letting me know about Eligius, luke-jr :D
 291 2011-06-05 01:52:41 <mtrlt> luke-jr: hey, it's almost right :P
 292 2011-06-05 01:52:54 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 293 2011-06-05 01:53:16 <lfm> mtrlt: 1.0 is almost right
 294 2011-06-05 01:53:19 <mtrlt> okay, thought it thru. (65535*2^208)/(2^224-1) is actually right :p
 295 2011-06-05 01:53:39 wolfspraul has joined
 296 2011-06-05 01:53:53 <enki> hey, anyone interested in this: modifying tor, so you can pay Relays for quality of service\
 297 2011-06-05 01:54:07 <enki> -> fast reliable anonymous overlay network
 298 2011-06-05 01:54:10 <lfm> enki what is Relays?
 299 2011-06-05 01:54:15 <enki> well, tor relays
 300 2011-06-05 01:54:17 <mtrlt> tor nodes
 301 2011-06-05 01:54:20 <mtrlt> or whatever they're called :p
 302 2011-06-05 01:54:21 Superbest has joined
 303 2011-06-05 01:54:22 <enki> exactly
 304 2011-06-05 01:54:38 <enki> would be of immense strategic value
 305 2011-06-05 01:54:43 Superbest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 306 2011-06-05 01:54:50 <lfm> whos gonna pay them with what? bitcoin?
 307 2011-06-05 01:54:54 <enki> bitcoin
 308 2011-06-05 01:55:16 <enki> i see it mostly as defensive strategic necessity, should governments start to attack bitcoin
 309 2011-06-05 01:55:20 <lfm> enki like tips or fees?
 310 2011-06-05 01:55:39 <luke-jr> mtrlt: (0xFFFF*16^52)/(16^56-1)
 311 2011-06-05 01:56:13 <enki> lfm: attach it to the envelopes, and when your speed isn't sufficient, see if you can pay more for better service
 312 2011-06-05 01:56:22 <gmaxwell> so I figure.. in maxima, float(gamma_incomplete(8+1,6125031/434882.72174970/0.9999847412109375)/8!) = .05952825832700993  So 5.95% chance of 8 or fewer blocks when 14.084 were expected.
 313 2011-06-05 01:56:44 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 315 2011-06-05 01:57:15 <enki> lfm: you can have multiple relays a->b-c compete with each other
 316 2011-06-05 01:57:33 <enki> and just pay a competitive bitcoin price for speed
 317 2011-06-05 01:58:18 Bisqwit has left ()
 318 2011-06-05 01:58:24 <enki> from what i know about resilient overlay networks you should be able to get pretty damn good speed from this, as long as you don't care too much about timing attack protection
 319 2011-06-05 01:58:29 <enki> which tor doesn't do anyway
 320 2011-06-05 01:59:05 <enki> might be possible to have this feel/be equivalent in speed to non-tor traffic
 321 2011-06-05 01:59:13 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 322 2011-06-05 01:59:19 <lfm> luke-jr: so 6% chance of it happening legitimately
 323 2011-06-05 02:00:04 <enki> ha, probably could run this as opensource project
 324 2011-06-05 02:00:17 <enki> and ask ppl to fund it in bitcoin
 325 2011-06-05 02:00:22 cornfeed has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 326 2011-06-05 02:00:24 <enki> as a hedge against government-crackdown
 327 2011-06-05 02:00:43 cornfeed has joined
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 329 2011-06-05 02:00:56 <jrmithdobbs> enki: i think time would be better spent fully integrating tor
 330 2011-06-05 02:01:02 <jrmithdobbs> enki: before considering that
 331 2011-06-05 02:01:09 <enki> jrmithdobbs: integrating it how?
 332 2011-06-05 02:01:11 <jrmithdobbs> enki: seeing as tor nodes can't be connected to right now
 333 2011-06-05 02:01:20 <enki> ah
 334 2011-06-05 02:01:26 <jrmithdobbs> enki: which means they actually decrease stability of the network
 335 2011-06-05 02:01:33 <gmaxwell> Making it so that it can automatically provide a hidden service (needs tor enhancements)
 336 2011-06-05 02:01:44 <enki> tor's implementation is horrible anyway
 337 2011-06-05 02:01:52 <gmaxwell> and so that it can automatically connect to hidden service to nodes, even if you don't use tor for your normal traffic.
 338 2011-06-05 02:01:53 <enki> in the same vein of bitcoin's c++ client...
 339 2011-06-05 02:02:18 <gmaxwell> enki: having hacked a bit on both, I don't agree. Tor's network code, for example, is way more mature.
 340 2011-06-05 02:02:22 <enki> and if you want dynamic resource allocation based on payments, you're throwing backwards compatibility over board anyway
 341 2011-06-05 02:02:27 <enki> gmaxwell: agreed
 342 2011-06-05 02:02:58 <enki> it's way better, but it's still not something that's easy to turn into something new
 343 2011-06-05 02:03:07 <enki> and something whose security i'd fully trust implementation wise
 344 2011-06-05 02:03:29 zooko has joined
 345 2011-06-05 02:03:35 <enki> hey zooko :)
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 349 2011-06-05 02:04:33 <zooko> Hi, enki! :-)
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 372 2011-06-05 02:34:03 <zooko> Wow, I just learned about clearcoin and it makes me happy.
 373 2011-06-05 02:35:53 <denisx> it should be possible to connect pushpoold to btcguild, right?
 374 2011-06-05 02:36:30 ahbritto_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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 379 2011-06-05 02:41:47 dsg has joined
 380 2011-06-05 02:44:33 <Matson> \window list
 381 2011-06-05 02:44:50 <Matson> oops
 382 2011-06-05 02:48:40 backwardation25 has joined
 383 2011-06-05 02:50:28 <wistiu> does bitcoin run in linux
 384 2011-06-05 02:50:28 mmoya has joined
 385 2011-06-05 02:50:59 <Graet> yes
 386 2011-06-05 02:51:10 <wistiu> oh should it be compiled
 387 2011-06-05 02:51:10 <Graet> google bitcoin linux
 388 2011-06-05 02:51:41 <Graet> dunjno i run win, but i know ppl use several versions of *nix
 389 2011-06-05 02:51:47 <wistiu> i c
 390 2011-06-05 02:51:55 <Graet> there really are plenty of forums with guides
 391 2011-06-05 02:52:27 <Graet> maybe google bitcoin <your distro>
 392 2011-06-05 02:52:49 <somecoiner> the question is, "Why would I run on Windows?"
 393 2011-06-05 02:53:09 <Graet> somecoiner dunno, but i know why i  do.....
 394 2011-06-05 02:53:18 <Graet> thats what matters to me :)
 395 2011-06-05 02:53:24 <somecoiner> Graet: I would love to hear this
 396 2011-06-05 02:53:59 <Graet> i was in a rush - simple to setup, basically
 397 2011-06-05 02:54:45 <somecoiner> " I use MicroSoft products because court records tell me that the NSA has 3 backdoors into their software. This is secure and why I use it for financial transactions"...
 398 2011-06-05 02:54:57 <Graet> had a go on my ubuntu box seemed like lots of messing round, win install ati, run guiminer, make profit :P
 399 2011-06-05 02:55:13 <Graet> mm i only use it on my miners
 400 2011-06-05 02:55:56 <Graet> but meh, pointless discussion imo. v similar to the usual linux/win . ford/holden, wine/beer arguments i'm over ;)
 401 2011-06-05 02:57:04 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 403 2011-06-05 03:01:14 fckStick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 404 2011-06-05 03:05:37 <diki> today was the first time my client froze on sending bitcoins..
 405 2011-06-05 03:13:45 <wistiu> is it recommended to compile bitcoin on linix
 406 2011-06-05 03:14:40 <denisx> ;;bc,stats
 407 2011-06-05 03:14:41 oliveparty has joined
 408 2011-06-05 03:14:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128694 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 329 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 545102.33572610
 409 2011-06-05 03:14:52 noagendamarket has joined
 410 2011-06-05 03:15:33 <wistiu> or windows better
 411 2011-06-05 03:17:18 zeshoem has joined
 412 2011-06-05 03:17:55 marlowe has joined
 413 2011-06-05 03:17:57 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 414 2011-06-05 03:18:59 DukeOfURL has joined
 415 2011-06-05 03:22:15 <diki> how long before my tx get's confirmed?
 416 2011-06-05 03:22:22 <diki> the client froze during sending...
 417 2011-06-05 03:22:23 <wistiu> 10 minutes per confirmation on avg
 418 2011-06-05 03:22:35 <diki> it doesnt even show the tx on bitcoincharts
 419 2011-06-05 03:22:42 <wistiu> lookup the address on blockexplorer
 420 2011-06-05 03:22:54 <wistiu> it probbly didn't send
 421 2011-06-05 03:23:25 <diki> but my btc are gone...
 422 2011-06-05 03:23:36 <diki> and according to blockexplorer nothing was sent
 423 2011-06-05 03:23:44 <wistiu> hmm'
 424 2011-06-05 03:24:06 <wistiu> maybe its resending it
 425 2011-06-05 03:24:16 <diki> few blocks already passed
 426 2011-06-05 03:24:48 <somecoiner> restore from a backup wallet and try again?
 427 2011-06-05 03:25:02 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 428 2011-06-05 03:25:11 <diki> i do have a backup...but from an older day
 429 2011-06-05 03:25:16 <diki> yesterday i believe
 430 2011-06-05 03:26:00 eao has joined
 431 2011-06-05 03:27:48 <diki> yeah..finally appeared
 432 2011-06-05 03:29:25 marlowe has quit (Quit: leaving)
 433 2011-06-05 03:30:02 Twoheaded has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 434 2011-06-05 03:32:48 Sugarnube has joined
 435 2011-06-05 03:35:18 <Matson> has anyone got pointers to security analysis of the algorithms and/or the code?
 436 2011-06-05 03:35:59 Twoheaded has joined
 437 2011-06-05 03:36:18 <Matson> specifically, have there been any research groups or computer crypto experts *not* in the bitcoin community who have reviewed the algorithms for flaws or attack vectors and then published the (blog, journal, anywhere) results?
 438 2011-06-05 03:36:46 jfksir has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 439 2011-06-05 03:36:57 diki has quit ()
 440 2011-06-05 03:38:40 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 441 2011-06-05 03:38:50 <luke-jr> Matson: … subtle flaw in your question
 442 2011-06-05 03:39:02 <somecoiner> Matson: not that I know of, but you can look atthe code yourself, and look at analysis of the independant subsystems...
 443 2011-06-05 03:39:09 <Matson> luke-jr: it's subtle flaws that worry me
 444 2011-06-05 03:39:25 <luke-jr> Matson: assuming Bitcoin doesn't have any significant flaws, and someone independent did do a review, wouldn't it be stupid for them to remain "*not* in the bitcoin community"?
 445 2011-06-05 03:40:06 <luke-jr> it's basically like asking for a non-Catholic who has proven Catholicism to be correct
 446 2011-06-05 03:40:10 <Matson> luke-jr: as long as they do the review from a startpoint of not bought into the idea, their analysis is slightly more credible
 447 2011-06-05 03:40:12 <somecoiner> there are plenty of people out there that think they are economist, believe in the code, but think the market will not make it...
 448 2011-06-05 03:40:32 <Matson> somecoiner: "make it" is pretty relative
 449 2011-06-05 03:40:43 <somecoiner> Matson: no, it is not
 450 2011-06-05 03:41:03 <Matson> somecoiner: how do you define "make it"?
 451 2011-06-05 03:41:26 <somecoiner> Lets gow ith your definition
 452 2011-06-05 03:41:36 <Matson> I don't have one
 453 2011-06-05 03:41:39 <somecoiner> ...
 454 2011-06-05 03:41:44 <Matson> there is only what it
 455 2011-06-05 03:41:47 <Matson> erm
 456 2011-06-05 03:41:54 <Matson> there is only what is
 457 2011-06-05 03:42:02 <somecoiner> Very deep
 458 2011-06-05 03:42:31 <Matson> at this point there is an asset, a distributed digital signature exchange system being touted as a currency
 459 2011-06-05 03:42:47 <Matson> that has gone up in value 70% since Thursday
 460 2011-06-05 03:42:55 <somecoiner> This is not the kind of thing that will partially succeed, it will either fail or not
 461 2011-06-05 03:43:07 <Matson> and currently is trading on what appears to be an open market at about $USD 18 each
 462 2011-06-05 03:43:15 <somecoiner> just like paper is touted as a currency...
 463 2011-06-05 03:43:36 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 464 2011-06-05 03:43:51 <Matson> currently paper dollar are a currency, defined as an item whose trade value is higher than it's value as a resource
 465 2011-06-05 03:43:53 <Graet> http://astrohacker.com/ahc/bitcoin-is-the-economic-singularity/  << interesting article
 466 2011-06-05 03:43:59 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
 467 2011-06-05 03:44:15 <Matson> bitcoin at the moment has more value as an asset than as a trade item, so it is not yet a currency
 468 2011-06-05 03:44:41 vsriniva1 has joined
 469 2011-06-05 03:45:48 <Matson> Graet: the like "There are no credible attack vectors at all" is what brought me here to ask my question
 470 2011-06-05 03:45:59 <somecoiner> Interesting definition. How about a currency is anything you can use to trade with, that has no inherent value?
 471 2011-06-05 03:46:09 <Matson> absolutes and black and white "fail or not" are typically red flags for me
 472 2011-06-05 03:46:37 <Matson> somecoiner: that's not the definition other people use, nor is it really a useful starting point
 473 2011-06-05 03:46:40 <somecoiner> Are you good at being partially alive?
 474 2011-06-05 03:46:50 <Matson> somecoiner: often currencies do have intrinsic value
 475 2011-06-05 03:46:52 <somecoiner> Its a very useful starting point.
 476 2011-06-05 03:47:02 <somecoiner> That is exactly what I said above
 477 2011-06-05 03:47:03 perol has joined
 478 2011-06-05 03:47:17 <Matson> cigarettes are commonly used as currencies in prisons, for example
 479 2011-06-05 03:47:22 <somecoiner> So I would like you to show me where y definition is wrong
 480 2011-06-05 03:47:36 <Matson> gold coins are currencies almost entirely becuase of the uses for gold
 481 2011-06-05 03:47:37 <somecoiner> that is a comodity
 482 2011-06-05 03:47:44 <Matson> lol
 483 2011-06-05 03:47:51 <Matson> somecoiner: did you ever study economics?
 484 2011-06-05 03:48:03 <somecoiner> lol
 485 2011-06-05 03:48:06 <somecoiner> Yes
 486 2011-06-05 03:48:26 <somecoiner> And this board is full of people that think they are economist, but are just full of shit
 487 2011-06-05 03:48:30 <Matson> commodities are interchangable items whose cost approaches the marginal cost of production
 488 2011-06-05 03:48:49 <Matson> the definition of irony, right there
 489 2011-06-05 03:49:05 <somecoiner> What is the cost of production of a bitcoin?
 490 2011-06-05 03:49:30 <wistiu> 2 bitcoins
 491 2011-06-05 03:49:30 <Matson> that changes over time
 492 2011-06-05 03:49:31 <luke-jr> somecoiner: approximately $15 USD right now I think
 493 2011-06-05 03:49:45 <Matson> depends on a lot of things
 494 2011-06-05 03:49:46 <luke-jr> somecoiner: since the value has gone up, the cost to produce more will shortly
 495 2011-06-05 03:49:53 <Matson> eventually, it will be infinite
 496 2011-06-05 03:50:15 <Matson> I think the graph I saw, if I believe it, was that after 2017, there will be no more made
 497 2011-06-05 03:50:39 <luke-jr> Matson: no
 498 2011-06-05 03:50:46 <luke-jr> Matson: there will be more made until like 21xx
 499 2011-06-05 03:51:13 <Matson> luke-jr: ref?
 500 2011-06-05 03:51:26 <luke-jr> Matson: source code
 501 2011-06-05 03:51:30 Netsniper has joined
 502 2011-06-05 03:51:33 <Matson> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time_graph.png
 503 2011-06-05 03:51:57 <Matson> sorry it was 2033 on that graph, effectively 0 more made
 504 2011-06-05 03:52:05 <luke-jr> Matson: zoom in :p
 505 2011-06-05 03:52:20 <luke-jr> Matson: that line goes closer to 21mil
 506 2011-06-05 03:52:26 <somecoiner> Matson: that graph goes to 2033?
 507 2011-06-05 03:52:44 <Diablo-D3> that graph is shit
 508 2011-06-05 03:52:49 <lfm> matson after 2140 there will be no more bitcoins made
 509 2011-06-05 03:52:51 shak has joined
 510 2011-06-05 03:52:53 <shak> hi
 511 2011-06-05 03:53:03 <somecoiner> So to compare, when will US dollars stop being made?
 512 2011-06-05 03:53:13 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 513 2011-06-05 03:53:21 <shak> how to run multiple json-rpc accounts on bitcoind ? example with 2 users:  user1:pass1 & user2:pass2 ? actually it works with only 1 login:pass
 514 2011-06-05 03:53:22 <Matson> fire in the treasury building?
 515 2011-06-05 03:53:39 <shak> I want to run a pool with my school friends , but we want possibility to have a login:pass for each student
 516 2011-06-05 03:53:51 <lfm> shak: you are right
 517 2011-06-05 03:54:04 <shak> how they do this on pool mining sites??
 518 2011-06-05 03:54:07 <shak> hi lfm
 519 2011-06-05 03:54:12 <luke-jr> shak: not with bitcoind
 520 2011-06-05 03:54:19 <Matson> bitcoins are not a commodity, as there is a limited supply, but they are close
 521 2011-06-05 03:54:21 <lfm> shak you need pool software then, not just bitcoind
 522 2011-06-05 03:54:21 <shak> with an other cli?
 523 2011-06-05 03:54:49 <somecoiner> So commodities have no supply limit, is what you ar saying?
 524 2011-06-05 03:54:52 SPACE_LAWYER has joined
 525 2011-06-05 03:54:53 <lfm> matson, I was not aware of that definition of a comodity
 526 2011-06-05 03:55:05 <somecoiner> Because it is not correct
 527 2011-06-05 03:55:24 <shak> and there is pool softs for that okok? u have a tip for the name?
 528 2011-06-05 03:55:28 <shak> :)
 529 2011-06-05 03:55:33 <Matson> hmmm
 530 2011-06-05 03:55:37 <Matson> I may have to modify that
 531 2011-06-05 03:55:45 <Graet> shak pushpool
 532 2011-06-05 03:55:46 dsg has left ()
 533 2011-06-05 03:55:46 Gekz has joined
 534 2011-06-05 03:55:46 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
 535 2011-06-05 03:55:46 Gekz has joined
 536 2011-06-05 03:56:28 <shak> thanks I will look this ;)
 537 2011-06-05 03:56:32 <somecoiner> Matson: Im not trying to be a dick (altought I often am...). I just want to clearly define what we are talking about here
 538 2011-06-05 03:56:43 <Matson> are we still talking?
 539 2011-06-05 03:56:48 <somecoiner> I guess not
 540 2011-06-05 03:57:06 <Matson> sure, I'm up for chatting, I am *really* interested in bitcoin
 541 2011-06-05 03:57:23 <Matson> still looking if anyone has done a thorough crypto analysis on this algorithms
 542 2011-06-05 03:57:37 <Matson> er on the algorithms
 543 2011-06-05 03:58:13 <Matson> somecoiner: I think bitcoin is not a currency yet, becuase people are not using it as a currency
 544 2011-06-05 03:58:17 <somecoiner> Most of them are NIST, so they analysis are well documented. Just not as a package
 545 2011-06-05 03:58:25 <lfm> matson well theres lots of people done analysis of sha256 and the ecdsa routines
 546 2011-06-05 03:58:30 <somecoiner> Matson: good. I can go with that
 547 2011-06-05 03:58:53 <Matson> I think bitcoin has a lot of really nice qualities that will help it *become* a currency, and it
 548 2011-06-05 03:59:16 <Matson> has a lot of qualities that will make it's use especially problematic for society as it exists today
 549 2011-06-05 03:59:44 <Matson> pn balance I don't know hich of those two factors will win.
 550 2011-06-05 03:59:59 <Matson> erm "on balance" ... which
 551 2011-06-05 04:00:47 <Matson> as for intrinsic value of a bitcoin, I think there are a few
 552 2011-06-05 04:01:29 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 553 2011-06-05 04:01:38 <Matson> it's transparent nature lends credibility and trust that outweight existing currency alternatives
 554 2011-06-05 04:02:05 ar4s has joined
 555 2011-06-05 04:02:15 MemoryException has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 556 2011-06-05 04:02:31 <Matson> there does not yet appear to be the ability to have anonymous or untraceable transactions, but I'm still reading on this - if that becomes real it will bring with it huge benefits and huge risks
 557 2011-06-05 04:02:50 <SPACE_LAWYER> who are you even talking to
 558 2011-06-05 04:02:52 <Matson> somecoiner: what are your thoughts
 559 2011-06-05 04:02:57 <SPACE_LAWYER> ok
 560 2011-06-05 04:03:09 <Matson> least I thought I was... you still chatting w me?
 561 2011-06-05 04:03:11 <jgarzik> Matson: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
 562 2011-06-05 04:03:14 <somecoiner> Matson: you can merge and spit transactions to hide them. But this is "not normal"
 563 2011-06-05 04:03:20 <Graet> https://blindbitcoin.com/  << theres a start Matson :0
 564 2011-06-05 04:03:50 tsp has joined
 565 2011-06-05 04:03:51 <somecoiner> Matson: so you can push 10 BTC into multiple splits. This makes it very hard to trace flow
 566 2011-06-05 04:04:01 <Matson> merges and splits still lead to tracability
 567 2011-06-05 04:04:14 <Matson> ok
 568 2011-06-05 04:04:22 <tsp> I get an RPC error when trying to copy a bitcoin address to clipboard in windows client, 0.3.21beta. Known bug?
 569 2011-06-05 04:04:37 <somecoiner> So 3 BTC goes here, 6 BTC goes there and the rest to some other address. Then if you do not use the address again, it has been "washed" so to speak. Please let me know if this is not correct
 570 2011-06-05 04:04:50 <tsp> Failed to put data on the clipboard (error -2147023169: the remote procedure call failed and did not execute.)
 571 2011-06-05 04:04:52 <somecoiner> Known windows bug?
 572 2011-06-05 04:05:17 NOTtheMessiah has joined
 573 2011-06-05 04:06:20 <lfm> somecoiner: there is always a sequence of "addresses" that can be followed. you never know when a transaction you have made is anonymity compromised on the other side.
 574 2011-06-05 04:06:20 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 575 2011-06-05 04:06:40 <somecoiner> Matson: how is it traceable if you use a new address each time? You can determine what address has "How much", but I think thats where the leak ends?
 576 2011-06-05 04:07:11 <somecoiner> lfm: true. If the other side owns you. then all bets are off. But that is not true is most cases
 577 2011-06-05 04:07:22 <gmaxwell> somecoiner: you can see the flow of funds into and out of an address.
 578 2011-06-05 04:07:31 <lfm> well if you pay someone, they can inform on you. if you are paid by someone, they can also inform on you
 579 2011-06-05 04:07:37 <somecoiner> Sorry, Im haing problems typing...
 580 2011-06-05 04:07:40 <gmaxwell> so you find one identifyable end point and subponea your way back as far as you like.
 581 2011-06-05 04:07:43 <somecoiner> ^fuck,,, having
 582 2011-06-05 04:07:44 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
 583 2011-06-05 04:07:49 magnificus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 584 2011-06-05 04:07:58 <gmaxwell> (and/or— you monitor the network and gather information as you go)
 585 2011-06-05 04:08:03 magnificus has joined
 586 2011-06-05 04:08:27 <somecoiner> gmaxwell: a subponea chain is almost useless here
 587 2011-06-05 04:08:46 <gmaxwell> somecoiner: I don't know what here means.
 588 2011-06-05 04:08:53 <lfm> somecoiner: how bout a toture chain
 589 2011-06-05 04:09:15 <Matson> sry was afk, back
 590 2011-06-05 04:09:39 <somecoiner> gmaxwell: subponea stop when you go outside the borders of jurisdiction.
 591 2011-06-05 04:10:11 <Matson> somecoiner: that's just when treaties and political pressure starts
 592 2011-06-05 04:10:57 <lfm> and dirty tricks like espionage, kidnaps and "enhanced interrogation"
 593 2011-06-05 04:10:58 <somecoiner> I don't know if anyone here deals with these on a daily basis, but I do. They are not effective in 99% of cases
 594 2011-06-05 04:11:11 <somecoiner> lfm: So right: http://xkcd.com/538/
 595 2011-06-05 04:11:13 <Matson> gmaxwell: "subponea your way back" through people all over the world?  his point is that is not possible
 596 2011-06-05 04:12:26 <lfm> somecoiner: and they can just break into your computer and get a copy of all your addresses (currently, future might have passwords needed)
 597 2011-06-05 04:13:11 <citiz3n> kaspersky is detecting bitcoin traffic as a DoS attack
 598 2011-06-05 04:13:13 <citiz3n> :\
 599 2011-06-05 04:13:30 <somecoiner> IRC traffic is often confused with DoS attacks...
 600 2011-06-05 04:13:43 <citiz3n> this is all port 8333
 601 2011-06-05 04:13:46 <citiz3n> bitcoin client
 602 2011-06-05 04:14:02 <somecoiner> lfm: chinese wallet hacking will become a very big problem in the next few months
 603 2011-06-05 04:14:42 <somecoiner> citiz3n: the port doesnt matter. To the router, you just get floods of UDP traffic when blocks are being pushed around.
 604 2011-06-05 04:15:10 <somecoiner> It starts to look like spam to many IRC monitor programs
 605 2011-06-05 04:15:34 <citiz3n> it must be some update kaspersky did
 606 2011-06-05 04:15:40 <citiz3n> this is the first time it's done this
 607 2011-06-05 04:15:46 <lfm> somecoiner: I dont think bitcoin traffic is that high really
 608 2011-06-05 04:16:00 <citiz3n> im trying to figure out how to disable it lol
 609 2011-06-05 04:16:05 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 610 2011-06-05 04:16:19 Netsniper has joined
 611 2011-06-05 04:16:34 <lfm> citiz3n: send email to kaspersky
 612 2011-06-05 04:16:39 <somecoiner> Every client that connects increases the echo pool. Is that correct?
 613 2011-06-05 04:16:58 <lfm> somecoiner: what is "echo pool"?
 614 2011-06-05 04:17:13 <somecoiner> sorry, bad term
 615 2011-06-05 04:17:32 <lfm> somecoiner: most only connect to 8 other nodes
 616 2011-06-05 04:17:38 SPACE_LAWYER has left ("Leaving")
 617 2011-06-05 04:17:51 <somecoiner> lfm: I believe the linux client default as 100
 618 2011-06-05 04:18:07 <lfm> somecoiner: the bitcoin default is 8
 619 2011-06-05 04:18:53 <lfm> no matter the os
 620 2011-06-05 04:19:16 vsriniva1 has quit (Quit: leaving)
 621 2011-06-05 04:20:08 <somecoiner> hmm. then never mind. Thanks for the correction
 622 2011-06-05 04:20:33 midnightmagic has joined
 623 2011-06-05 04:20:36 <lfm> when you enable incomming connects it can grow higher
 624 2011-06-05 04:21:02 <somecoiner> then the DDoS stuff shouldnt be flagging the IRC traffic based on bandwidth...
 625 2011-06-05 04:21:16 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
 626 2011-06-05 04:21:17 enki has quit (Quit: leaving)
 627 2011-06-05 04:21:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":18.998,"low":14.2006,"vol":44696,"buy":17.81,"sell":17.9999,"last":17.9999}}
 628 2011-06-05 04:21:22 <midnightmagic> wtf
 629 2011-06-05 04:21:25 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 630 2011-06-05 04:21:27 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128700 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 323 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 5 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 544257.49987872
 631 2011-06-05 04:21:31 <somecoiner> Ya, I was pretty sure the first time I fired up a default client, I had 23 connections.
 632 2011-06-05 04:22:02 <somecoiner> So actually, 8 is not the cap?
 633 2011-06-05 04:22:10 <lfm> if it was no NAT then maybe you would see that many after a while
 634 2011-06-05 04:22:10 agent-x has joined
 635 2011-06-05 04:22:29 <lfm> no 8 is not a cap
 636 2011-06-05 04:22:46 <midnightmagic> 8 is a cap on the OUTGOING connections it maintains.
 637 2011-06-05 04:22:55 <midnightmagic> if you want it to stay at 8, you have to disable incoming connections.
 638 2011-06-05 04:23:23 <midnightmagic> like, firewall them off or something.
 639 2011-06-05 04:23:33 <lfm> I think the way it works is if the number of connections fall below 8 then it will start trying to make more. It still accepts new incomming connects tho
 640 2011-06-05 04:23:36 torsthaldo has joined
 641 2011-06-05 04:24:07 <midnightmagic> right, new *incoming* connections, it accepts.
 642 2011-06-05 04:25:00 <midnightmagic> i guess your explanation is probably the more accurate.
 643 2011-06-05 04:25:00 <somecoiner> So when a now block is pushed, there is a great deal of chatter that happens between all clients? Is this just (blocksize * numbec of peers) ?
 644 2011-06-05 04:25:41 <midnightmagic> think of it as a pair: when a block has traversed a pair, i don't believe it will traverse it again
 645 2011-06-05 04:25:54 <lfm> somecoiner: its just an announcment mostly, I have clock x and then if your naighbor has block x and you dont you request block x from him
 646 2011-06-05 04:26:25 <lfm> clock -> block
 647 2011-06-05 04:26:29 <midnightmagic> your explanations are better than mine. i'm going to be quiet now. :)
 648 2011-06-05 04:26:30 <somecoiner> I thought you requested the blocks from many sources to validate by length?
 649 2011-06-05 04:26:56 <somecoiner> I assumed every source that is a peer?
 650 2011-06-05 04:27:02 <lfm> somecoiner: no need for du-plicates, if the hashes conform
 651 2011-06-05 04:27:23 agent-x has left ()
 652 2011-06-05 04:27:27 <somecoiner> How do you know it is a dup until you query it?
 653 2011-06-05 04:27:39 kish has joined
 654 2011-06-05 04:28:07 <lfm> if you have block x you dont need another.
 655 2011-06-05 04:28:11 <somecoiner> hash of hash thing?
 656 2011-06-05 04:28:33 <somecoiner> I thought you had to validate block X when you get it?
 657 2011-06-05 04:28:54 <somecoiner> So you compare it to other peres that say they have block x?
 658 2011-06-05 04:28:58 <somecoiner> ^peers
 659 2011-06-05 04:29:20 <lfm> ya, if the hashes do not validade then it gets more complex, it might be a fork so you need to request block x - 1 to see if it matches
 660 2011-06-05 04:29:41 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 661 2011-06-05 04:29:50 <somecoiner> Ya, then you request block X from many peers to determine longest block, thus validating it. Am I missing something?
 662 2011-06-05 04:30:02 JRWR has joined
 663 2011-06-05 04:30:02 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
 664 2011-06-05 04:30:02 JRWR has joined
 665 2011-06-05 04:30:09 <midnightmagic> i think you only request a block from a single peer, isn't that so?
 666 2011-06-05 04:30:22 <somecoiner> Or is there a point where the client decides that it compare 5 hashes and that is enough, or something?
 667 2011-06-05 04:30:38 <midnightmagic> at least, in the debug.log I don't see any more than a single request for a block when i'm catching up after an absence.
 668 2011-06-05 04:30:46 <lfm> I think its more efficient than that. so long as you have a valid block x, you dont worry.
 669 2011-06-05 04:31:04 zyb has joined
 670 2011-06-05 04:31:21 <somecoiner> If that is the case, then Im going to stop using btc... that doesnt sound like it tries to validate blocks very well
 671 2011-06-05 04:31:49 <midnightmagic> somecoiner: if a block satisfies the requirements that it be legitimate, then it is by definition a legitimate block. the only definition of canonical is "longest chain" if there are two longest chains, a fork happens and the client maintains a history of both until the next block arrives.
 672 2011-06-05 04:31:49 TomyBoy3G has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 673 2011-06-05 04:32:02 TommyBoy3G has joined
 674 2011-06-05 04:32:14 <lfm> somecoiner: well every block has a 256 bit hash of the previous block so if it is good then there should not be any reason to worry
 675 2011-06-05 04:32:30 <midnightmagic> if someone has a block and you verify the hashes, then you are guaranteed that someone, somewhere did the work required to build that block.
 676 2011-06-05 04:32:45 <somecoiner> So validation of a block happens not by comparison, but by validating the transactios in the chain?
 677 2011-06-05 04:33:11 <lfm> somecoiner: note the hashes of the new blocks must also conform to the difficulty to it is no simple matter to just make up blocks
 678 2011-06-05 04:33:18 <somecoiner> YA, I guess I am more concerned with forking blocks then, as that is the attack vector that we are trying to stop
 679 2011-06-05 04:33:25 <midnightmagic> it happens by verifying the proof-of-work: you do a hash, and if the hash matches, then you just proved that someone did a LOT of work to find that match.
 680 2011-06-05 04:33:57 <somecoiner> ya, I got that... basis for blocks and such. But I thought forking happened more often I guess?
 681 2011-06-05 04:34:15 <midnightmagic> only on testnet. there's some wild five-deep fork chains there.
 682 2011-06-05 04:34:21 <somecoiner> Or maybe it will in teh future as more processing power is thrown atthe problem
 683 2011-06-05 04:34:22 <midnightmagic> i mean main will sometimes fork.
 684 2011-06-05 04:34:30 <lfm> or at least the odd are they had to, and by chaining them together the odds also stack up to make it less and less likely that there is anything wrong
 685 2011-06-05 04:34:33 <midnightmagic> but i've never seen a fork in main more than one block long.
 686 2011-06-05 04:34:49 <somecoiner> Ah, thanks for clairification
 687 2011-06-05 04:35:06 <midnightmagic> if you would like to see the history, you can run: bitcoind -printblocktree
 688 2011-06-05 04:35:11 <midnightmagic> lemme show you what a fork looks like..
 689 2011-06-05 04:35:37 <somecoiner> I was under the ipression that forking happened all the time and thus block compares were common, thus more peer to peer traffic, thus IRC DDoS foo as above
 690 2011-06-05 04:35:56 <lfm> forking is pretty rare
 691 2011-06-05 04:36:02 <midnightmagic> 20952 (1,14590552) 000000001052a41fa014  05/26/11 12:52:18  tx 1
 692 2011-06-05 04:36:02 <midnightmagic> |\
 693 2011-06-05 04:36:02 <midnightmagic> | 20953 (1,14590775) 00000000054de6e1e3ac  05/26/11 12:52:57  tx 81
 694 2011-06-05 04:36:08 <midnightmagic> that's in testnet
 695 2011-06-05 04:36:11 <somecoiner> I fork happens when 2 clients solve at the same time?
 696 2011-06-05 04:36:15 <lfm> mayebe once a day or less.
 697 2011-06-05 04:36:26 <midnightmagic> then, down further is another 20953.
 698 2011-06-05 04:36:34 <midnightmagic> forking happens once again in main?!
 699 2011-06-05 04:36:40 <midnightmagic> er..  once a day?
 700 2011-06-05 04:36:52 <jrmithdobbs> sounds about right
 701 2011-06-05 04:36:54 <lfm> somecoiner: ya, normally it is just two discoveries too close together, then the next block resolves it
 702 2011-06-05 04:36:56 <luke-jr> IMO, that's a design flaw :p
 703 2011-06-05 04:37:13 <luke-jr> Satoshi should have designed the system to not only tolerate forking, but encourage it
 704 2011-06-05 04:37:29 <lfm> luke-jr: huh?
 705 2011-06-05 04:37:30 <somecoiner> given the p2p nature, you have to fudge somewhere... forknig blocks seems like a godo place to solve the problem
 706 2011-06-05 04:37:59 <midnightmagic> no, between 03/04/11 and 05/26/11 there were no forks
 707 2011-06-05 04:38:03 <somecoiner> crap, out of beer. back in 10m. keep thread running :)
 708 2011-06-05 04:38:16 <midnightmagic> 2 on the 27th, one on the 30th..
 709 2011-06-05 04:38:23 <luke-jr> lfm: it's by no means trivial to solve, but I think it can be done
 710 2011-06-05 04:38:24 <midnightmagic> then the next on 06/03/11
 711 2011-06-05 04:38:36 <lfm> luke-jr: you are playing with the open source forking versus block chain forking, just kidding right
 712 2011-06-05 04:38:47 <luke-jr> lfm: no
 713 2011-06-05 04:39:09 <midnightmagic> what does it buy is to fork the blockchain?
 714 2011-06-05 04:39:14 <midnightmagic> is => us
 715 2011-06-05 04:39:16 dr_win has joined
 716 2011-06-05 04:39:23 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: interplanetary bitcoin
 717 2011-06-05 04:39:58 <zooko> luke-jr: I agree! But I'm too busy to work on that right now, so you get started.
 718 2011-06-05 04:40:00 <lfm> luke-jr: block chain forks are very expensive and generally undesirable. I dont see why anyone would want to encourage them
 719 2011-06-05 04:40:07 <zooko> Hopefully we'll have a new design deployed before colonizing Mars.
 720 2011-06-05 04:40:11 <midnightmagic> i'm pretty sure the latency between earth and mars would make a sync'd blockchain pretty much useless. communication latency is greater than the block generation speed.
 721 2011-06-05 04:40:12 <luke-jr> zooko: it's not a significant enough problem
 722 2011-06-05 04:40:22 <midnightmagic> oh hey zooko!
 723 2011-06-05 04:40:22 <midnightmagic> \o
 724 2011-06-05 04:40:27 <luke-jr> lfm: they're expensive and undesirable *because* of the design flaw :P
 725 2011-06-05 04:40:35 <zooko> Hi! :-)
 726 2011-06-05 04:40:35 <midnightmagic> welcome to the tulip fields my friend!
 727 2011-06-05 04:40:39 <zooko> Haha1
 728 2011-06-05 04:40:44 luke-jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 729 2011-06-05 04:40:56 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: p2p code being slow/inefficient to propigate blocks/txns wouldn't cause major resource use if forking was "encouraged" (though i'm not sure exactly how luke would propose that be implemented)
 730 2011-06-05 04:40:57 luke-jr has joined
 731 2011-06-05 04:41:00 <zooko> Yeah, I've decided to buy tulip bulbs--I mean BitCoins--now before the price skyrockets.
 732 2011-06-05 04:41:13 <zooko> But I can't, because I don't have any way to move USD into mtgox overnight.
 733 2011-06-05 04:41:25 <midnightmagic> 24% within a day, and then 30% within a day just a couple of days ago. difficulty is going to go through the roof.
 734 2011-06-05 04:41:51 <luke-jr> zooko: midnightmagic can send you some :P
 735 2011-06-05 04:42:00 <midnightmagic> some bitcoins?
 736 2011-06-05 04:42:07 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: MTGUSD? :p
 737 2011-06-05 04:42:17 <luke-jr> zooko: could always buy off Market too
 738 2011-06-05 04:42:21 <lfm> luke-jr: I dont follow? interplanetary bitcoin could be done fairly easy as a separate block chain with slower block rate, like an average of one block a day. then have separate earth and mars bitcoin block chains with the normal speeds.
 739 2011-06-05 04:42:33 <midnightmagic> just as a joke i put a sell @ $17, and then stupidly stopped monitoring it for about 18 hours. sigh.
 740 2011-06-05 04:42:38 <luke-jr> lfm: I didn't say there wasn't a viable workaround to the problem either
 741 2011-06-05 04:42:46 <luke-jr> lol midnightmagic
 742 2011-06-05 04:42:58 <midnightmagic> yeah brutal man
 743 2011-06-05 04:43:06 <luke-jr> I wonder how many of those there were at $10
 744 2011-06-05 04:43:07 <midnightmagic> all my f'in ฿ are gone
 745 2011-06-05 04:43:11 <lfm> midnightmagic: good joke
 746 2011-06-05 04:43:20 <zooko> midnightmagic: ... but now you have a lot more USD?
 747 2011-06-05 04:43:23 <zooko> Things could be worse.
 748 2011-06-05 04:43:24 devrandom1 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 749 2011-06-05 04:43:25 <midnightmagic> crappy joke, i meant to re-integrate the coins into my wallet now
 750 2011-06-05 04:43:34 <luke-jr> zooko: but now it'll be expensive for him to get his Bitcoins back
 751 2011-06-05 04:43:35 <midnightmagic> no can do now.
 752 2011-06-05 04:43:49 <zooko> Poor mm!
 753 2011-06-05 04:43:57 <midnightmagic> =]
 754 2011-06-05 04:44:10 * zooko attempts to execute bitcoind for the first time ever...
 755 2011-06-05 04:44:20 <lfm> well you could get some of them back if you really need some
 756 2011-06-05 04:44:24 <midnightmagic> first time! well congrats man.
 757 2011-06-05 04:45:26 <luke-jr> zooko: bitcoind isn't really for end users fyi
 758 2011-06-05 04:45:32 <midnightmagic> it's really bothering me that people are using it just as a communal wealth storage vehicle rather than a real currency. this kind of insane value hike makes people want to hoard. :(
 759 2011-06-05 04:45:49 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: unfortunately, I suspect it's the opposite
 760 2011-06-05 04:45:57 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: zooko is the sort you really, really want running it.
 761 2011-06-05 04:45:57 mmoya has joined
 762 2011-06-05 04:46:10 <luke-jr> the recent bubbling has been right after druggies got wind of that drug site
 763 2011-06-05 04:46:12 * zooko is too dumb to figure out how to run it
 764 2011-06-05 04:46:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the server?
 765 2011-06-05 04:46:23 <midnightmagic> zooko is far too modest.
 766 2011-06-05 04:46:26 <lfm> if theyre smart it would make them want to sell of at least some, get some profit while they can
 767 2011-06-05 04:46:34 <midnightmagic> yeah. bitcoind. getting into the code, the protocol. everything.
 768 2011-06-05 04:46:40 <luke-jr> who is zooko?
 769 2011-06-05 04:47:01 <luke-jr> I mean, no cloak, IPv4, doesn't look all that up on tech … :p
 770 2011-06-05 04:47:13 * zooko laughs
 771 2011-06-05 04:47:18 <midnightmagic> it doesn't matter
 772 2011-06-05 04:47:24 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000)
 773 2011-06-05 04:47:26 <midnightmagic> none of that matters. go google him.
 774 2011-06-05 04:47:27 <luke-jr> some business guy then?
 775 2011-06-05 04:47:36 <midnightmagic> lol
 776 2011-06-05 04:47:44 <zooko> I actually *am* trying to start a business.
 777 2011-06-05 04:47:47 <midnightmagic> if I wax poetic i suspect i'd embarrass him
 778 2011-06-05 04:47:52 <zooko> But my experience is mostly in programming.
 779 2011-06-05 04:48:11 <zooko> The business I'm trying to start is to sell Tahoe-LAFS storage service.
 780 2011-06-05 04:48:17 <zooko> That's a very secure cloud storage system.
 781 2011-06-05 04:48:26 <luke-jr> zooko's wikipedia looks just like all the other bitcoin geeks
 782 2011-06-05 04:48:56 <luke-jr> anarchist or libertarian type
 783 2011-06-05 04:50:16 <somecoiner> midnightmagic: open markets will correct themselves. The startup period is just a bit rough till the user numbers stabalize a bit
 784 2011-06-05 04:51:36 <midnightmagic> this particular market is too small yet; the numbers won't stabilize. there's no break-in period like in a stock market. all models I've seen people try to aply to ฿ all fail because of the unique nature of the supply.
 785 2011-06-05 04:51:54 <midnightmagic> well..  not in the short-term anyway.
 786 2011-06-05 04:52:43 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 787 2011-06-05 04:53:14 mmoya has joined
 788 2011-06-05 04:53:19 <somecoiner> the user base will increase another 2 magnitudes over the next 6 months, then flatten out a bit. that will endthe start up period and cause a bit more "stability"
 789 2011-06-05 04:53:47 <midnightmagic> only 2? it's a worldwide currency. the magnitudes won't stop for years.
 790 2011-06-05 04:54:09 <somecoiner> yes, but my projection is just for the next 6 months
 791 2011-06-05 04:54:29 <somecoiner> you are right, it wont stop, but it will slow down
 792 2011-06-05 04:54:40 <somecoiner> just like the mining curve
 793 2011-06-05 04:54:58 <midnightmagic> namecoin stole some of that, as did DDoS'ing the public pools.
 794 2011-06-05 04:55:12 <midnightmagic> and mining equipment supplies are pretty much gone.
 795 2011-06-05 04:55:17 <midnightmagic> it's not for lack of demand..
 796 2011-06-05 04:56:35 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 797 2011-06-05 04:56:50 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 798 2011-06-05 04:57:06 <somecoiner> nope, but there are only so many people on the planet with dedicated machines. As you increase users, your pool of new users deceases and slows down. You will hit a point where the adoptino will meet an even chunk rate
 799 2011-06-05 04:57:12 <somecoiner> ^churn rate
 800 2011-06-05 04:57:23 johnnympereira5 has joined
 801 2011-06-05 04:57:27 <zooko> Hm, I just realized that there might actually be a market for miner FPGAs.
 802 2011-06-05 04:57:45 <somecoiner> too expensive
 803 2011-06-05 04:58:13 amiller has joined
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 805 2011-06-05 05:00:17 <zooko> Surely it is more cost-effective than GPUs, after you've run it long enough to mine BitCoins. Right?
 806 2011-06-05 05:00:57 <somecoiner> yes
 807 2011-06-05 05:01:34 <somecoiner> the upfront cost is too high, no one knows how to code for them properly, and what do you do with them when you are done?
 808 2011-06-05 05:01:59 <zooko> Play Quake 5?
 809 2011-06-05 05:02:03 <somecoiner> but, yes, they are great :)
 810 2011-06-05 05:03:12 <zooko> So, have the ATI (? was it?) GPUs that worked best for BitCoin mining all sold out?
 811 2011-06-05 05:04:13 <lfm> zooko the 5970 were best. they are no longer produced and pretty hard to find.
 812 2011-06-05 05:04:48 <lfm> used ones are your best bet I expect
 813 2011-06-05 05:06:06 <somecoiner> is bitcoin really a AMD secret project to massively increase sales :)
 814 2011-06-05 05:07:04 <lfm> maybe, we don't know much about Satoshi or his work history or affiliations
 815 2011-06-05 05:07:41 <somecoiner> when you walk into Best Buy, all you see in nvidia sitting on the shelves. They must be bummed... So MS decides the time is right for rape :)
 816 2011-06-05 05:08:15 <lfm> mistake no 1. walking into best buy
 817 2011-06-05 05:08:25 <johnnympereira5> ;;bc,stats
 818 2011-06-05 05:08:27 <somecoiner> lol, true
 819 2011-06-05 05:08:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128708 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 315 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 15 hours, 43 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 544914.57788870
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 822 2011-06-05 05:09:35 <lfm> somecoiner: I suspect best buy never has sold the 5970. its too much on the edge
 823 2011-06-05 05:10:32 <somecoiner> correct, they have no sku for it
 824 2011-06-05 05:12:56 sacarlson has joined
 825 2011-06-05 05:13:24 RBecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me.  You love me so much, and I never want to let it go.  You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
 826 2011-06-05 05:13:36 <somecoiner> Tech question: does anyone know how the sha256 portion of the code is not susceptible to quantum attacks due to the merkle tree?
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 829 2011-06-05 05:18:01 <zooko> somecoiner: that is a strange question.
 830 2011-06-05 05:18:08 <zooko> I mean, I'm not sure how to parse it.
 831 2011-06-05 05:18:39 <somecoiner> Bitcoin protocol is not attackable by Quntum methods. Please explain why :)
 832 2011-06-05 05:18:46 <gjs278> the difficulty will rise
 833 2011-06-05 05:18:48 <somecoiner> ^Quantum
 834 2011-06-05 05:18:50 <gjs278> to quantum levels
 835 2011-06-05 05:19:00 <gjs278> so you won't be able to gen all of the coins
 836 2011-06-05 05:19:03 <zooko> somecoiner: the ecdsa signatures are attackable by quantum methods.
 837 2011-06-05 05:19:11 <somecoiner> thats what I thought
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 839 2011-06-05 05:19:59 <somecoiner> there is a statement gonig around that bitcoin is not crackable by quantum machines. I wanted to know why. Merkel hashes do not have this problem though, so is it sucure end to end?
 840 2011-06-05 05:20:18 <somecoiner> time for a new keyboard... sorry
 841 2011-06-05 05:21:01 <somecoiner> but the difficulty increasing, is not the answer i was looking for.
 842 2011-06-05 05:21:09 <zooko> I guess the statement is wrong.
 843 2011-06-05 05:21:23 <somecoiner> okay ,thanks
 844 2011-06-05 05:21:36 <somecoiner> then we should all be very worried, right?
 845 2011-06-05 05:21:57 darbsllim has joined
 846 2011-06-05 05:22:15 <zooko> I'm not worried.
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 848 2011-06-05 05:22:35 <zooko> We could upgrade BitCoin in the future to use post-quantum digital signatures.
 849 2011-06-05 05:22:44 <zooko> I bet we can do that before anyone can implement a big quantum computer. :-)
 850 2011-06-05 05:22:57 <somecoiner> I thought that's what the merkle tree was for, specifically to address this problem?
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 853 2011-06-05 05:23:34 <forrestv> somecoiner, no
 854 2011-06-05 05:23:38 <somecoiner> but, yes, if the protocol is attackable by quantum systems, then that is a very big problem
 855 2011-06-05 05:23:54 <forrestv> somecoiner, merkle trees originally were used to prevent quantum attacks
 856 2011-06-05 05:24:06 <forrestv> but they only serve the purpose of managing transactions for bitcoin
 857 2011-06-05 05:24:54 <somecoiner> so the sha256 hashing is still vulnerable?
 858 2011-06-05 05:25:01 <zooko> There are many uses of Merkle Trees.
 859 2011-06-05 05:25:08 <forrestv> yes
 860 2011-06-05 05:25:17 <somecoiner> that is "bad"
 861 2011-06-05 05:25:23 <zooko> Currently they are used in BitCoin for some optimization that I don't fully understand to avoid having to keep copies of as many transactions.
 862 2011-06-05 05:25:31 <zooko> They could also perhaps in the future be used for post-quantum digital signatures.
 863 2011-06-05 05:25:35 <zooko> Which would be AWESOME.
 864 2011-06-05 05:26:26 <zooko> By the way, if anybody here is into that, we've been noodling on it a bit in the Tahoe-LAFS project:
 865 2011-06-05 05:26:29 <zooko> http://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2011-March/006237.html
 866 2011-06-05 05:26:36 <somecoiner> zooko: in bitcoin, the merle tree is used like rrdtool is used by other systems today... in services such as mrtg
 867 2011-06-05 05:26:49 Stabaho has joined
 868 2011-06-05 05:27:58 <zooko> What's a good price for a used Radeon 5970?
 869 2011-06-05 05:28:18 <somecoiner> zooko: so they are looking for collisions from the other size, post hash, as an attack?
 870 2011-06-05 05:29:05 <zooko> somecoiner: I do not understand the question.
 871 2011-06-05 05:29:53 <somecoiner> zooko: sorry. The thread you posted: they are trying to look for sha256 collisions as an attack vector?
 872 2011-06-05 05:30:32 <zooko> That thread is that somebody implemented post-quantum digital signatures and they were measuring how fast they worked.
 873 2011-06-05 05:31:21 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 874 2011-06-05 05:31:45 <somecoiner> Ah
 875 2011-06-05 05:32:32 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 876 2011-06-05 05:33:17 <zooko> So if some bitcoin devs are interested in post-quantum signatures, they might want to follow-up to that post from Julian Walde on tahoe-dev.
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 886 2011-06-05 05:53:08 <wistiu> zooko: cool
 887 2011-06-05 05:53:23 <wistiu> which post-qc public-key scheme are they suggesting?
 888 2011-06-05 05:55:45 <zooko> hash-based, which is the best of all possible post-qs signature schemes. :-)
 889 2011-06-05 05:56:13 <wistiu> interesting
 890 2011-06-05 05:56:36 sfduih has joined
 891 2011-06-05 05:56:44 <zooko> You might also be interested in
 892 2011-06-05 05:56:47 <zooko> http://insecure.tahoe-lafs.org/uri/URI:DIR2-RO:ixqhc4kdbjxc7o65xjnveoewym:5x6lwoxghrd5rxhwunzavft2qygfkt27oj3fbxlq4c6p45z5uneq/blog.html#[[can%20we%20build%20a%20crypto%20system%20to%20last%20for%20a%20hundred%20years%3F]]
 893 2011-06-05 05:57:10 <zooko> and
 894 2011-06-05 05:57:15 <zooko> http://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/OneHundredYearCryptography
 895 2011-06-05 05:57:25 <zooko> I'll be going to sleep in a few minutes, but would be happy to chat again later.
 896 2011-06-05 05:57:38 <zooko> s/post-qs/post-qc/
 897 2011-06-05 05:59:20 theymos has joined
 898 2011-06-05 05:59:33 <somecoiner> zooko: thanks for the links
 899 2011-06-05 05:59:38 <zooko> You're welcome!
 900 2011-06-05 05:59:57 TomyBoy3G has joined
 901 2011-06-05 06:00:01 <zooko> I would be delighted if some BitCoiners gave some encouragement to Julian Walde for his post-quantum digital signatures work.
 902 2011-06-05 06:00:17 <zooko> Probably just somebody saying "Hey that's cool, tell me more." would go a long way. :-)
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 909 2011-06-05 06:09:09 <wistiu> how big is extranonce?
 910 2011-06-05 06:09:25 <theymos> It's variable-length.
 911 2011-06-05 06:10:42 <wistiu> ahh is there a max size?
 912 2011-06-05 06:11:06 <theymos> I think the coinbase scriptSig is limited to 100 bytes.
 913 2011-06-05 06:11:11 <wistiu> hmmm interesting
 914 2011-06-05 06:11:35 <wistiu> is the extranonce part included in the hash of the tx list
 915 2011-06-05 06:12:03 <theymos> It's part of the generation transaction.
 916 2011-06-05 06:12:23 deceit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 917 2011-06-05 06:12:39 <wistiu> the block header has the hash of the tx list.. if that includes extranonce wouldnt that mess things up. since every time you change the full nonce your header changes
 918 2011-06-05 06:13:29 deceit has joined
 919 2011-06-05 06:13:51 <theymos> The regular nonce is changed 2^32 times before extraNonce is changed, so you don't have to re-hash the transactions every time.
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 921 2011-06-05 06:13:59 <wistiu> ahhh
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 926 2011-06-05 06:21:09 <niekie> ;;rate jjcm 2 Pleasant transaction, was willing to overlook the 0.01 BTC transaction fee I had to pay. Thanks!
 927 2011-06-05 06:21:09 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the rating system.
 928 2011-06-05 06:21:18 <niekie> Bah, that's a new requirement? :(
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 936 2011-06-05 06:42:18 <gmaxwell> 22:13 < somecoiner> then we should all be very worried, right?
 937 2011-06-05 06:42:27 <gmaxwell> people are very weird in what they worry about.
 938 2011-06-05 06:42:45 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin could be ruined by one or two old white dudes signing a piece of paper.
 939 2011-06-05 06:43:00 <darbsllim> =P
 940 2011-06-05 06:43:49 <Graet> i'm old and white - hope its not me ;)
 941 2011-06-05 06:44:09 <gmaxwell> ...And you worry about a highly hypothetical machine which no one crediable argues is expected to exist soon and would break a lot of other stuff as bad/worse. shesh. :)
 942 2011-06-05 06:44:14 <darbsllim> ;;bc,gen 3000000
 943 2011-06-05 06:44:15 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 6.93861813965 BTC per day and 0.289109089152 BTC per hour.
 944 2011-06-05 06:44:25 <darbsllim> woo =P
 945 2011-06-05 06:44:27 <eianpsego> hey maxwell
 946 2011-06-05 06:44:32 <darbsllim> finally getting some decent ghash going
 947 2011-06-05 06:44:36 <gmaxwell> Heyho.
 948 2011-06-05 06:44:37 <Gekz> when is the bloody cpu miner being removed from the client
 949 2011-06-05 06:44:43 <gjs278> next verwsion
 950 2011-06-05 06:44:47 <gjs278> unless it was already released
 951 2011-06-05 06:44:50 <gjs278> but .22 will have it gone
 952 2011-06-05 06:45:02 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, I was reading into the DDC thing (trusting compilers)
 953 2011-06-05 06:45:08 <Graet> .22 less than 24hours away i read
 954 2011-06-05 06:45:18 * somecoiner cheers!
 955 2011-06-05 06:45:22 <Graet> about 5 hours ago ;)
 956 2011-06-05 06:45:24 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, that guy assumes that you already have a trusted compiler to begin with
 957 2011-06-05 06:45:31 ar4s has joined
 958 2011-06-05 06:46:09 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, so there is a trusted compiler, and the "compiler under test"
 959 2011-06-05 06:46:14 bit-boy has quit ()
 960 2011-06-05 06:46:17 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: hmph. I thought he was doing cross validation so that if any of N was not compromised, even if you don't know which was the trusted, then you were fine.
 961 2011-06-05 06:47:24 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, well, that's all fine. But how do you trust a compiler in the first place
 962 2011-06-05 06:47:25 <eianpsego> haha
 963 2011-06-05 06:47:35 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, I laughed when I read the assumptions section
 964 2011-06-05 06:48:29 <eianpsego> but nonetheless, it was a contribtuion. I guess that is what is expected for a dissertation
 965 2011-06-05 06:48:33 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: Well I thought you make the reasonable assumption, e.g. GCC 3 from 1996 won't e.g. have code hidden in it to patch tinycc from 2005. But if they're not doing the cross validation then I have no clue.
 966 2011-06-05 06:48:40 <wistiu> proof carrying code is cool
 967 2011-06-05 06:49:26 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, if you have gcc 3, how do you validate that is ok in the first place
 968 2011-06-05 06:49:43 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, I not totally convinved that is reasonable
 969 2011-06-05 06:50:09 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: you don't. It might be compromised.
 970 2011-06-05 06:50:34 da2ce7 has joined
 971 2011-06-05 06:50:39 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: but is its compromise smart enough to successfully insert a compromise into some other brand of compiler from the far future?
 972 2011-06-05 06:51:05 <gmaxwell> and a compromise which makes the future compiler compromise compilations of itself and of gcc?
 973 2011-06-05 06:51:12 <wistiu> there are some buffer overflows in old gcc versions
 974 2011-06-05 06:51:17 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, who knows :P
 975 2011-06-05 06:51:38 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, the idea of trust in that scenario feels probabilistic
 976 2011-06-05 06:51:41 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: There are no absolute, of course, but that takes the attack from completely plausable to @#$@#$@ odds.
 977 2011-06-05 06:51:51 <eianpsego> right, I get it
 978 2011-06-05 06:51:56 <theymos> Build the compiler using the simplest possible compiler written in assembly. Verify that mini-compiler yourself.
 979 2011-06-05 06:51:58 <eianpsego> I'm just not satisfied I guess
 980 2011-06-05 06:52:52 <eianpsego> theymos, yup. That is invariably what the security community does - reduce the attack surface by reducing functionality
 981 2011-06-05 06:53:06 <eianpsego> security = 1/functionality
 982 2011-06-05 06:53:15 <gmaxwell> I would hope that if someone invented near-AI machine intelligence smart enough to turn random unseen compilers into compromised compilers that they'd find something better to do with their time. But hey. :)
 983 2011-06-05 06:53:29 <eianpsego> haha
 984 2011-06-05 06:53:42 <gmaxwell> The cross compile thing probably reduces the risk to the point that your cpu microcode is a much bigger threat.
 985 2011-06-05 06:53:54 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, agreed.
 986 2011-06-05 06:54:03 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, I understand it and I don't like it I guess :P
 987 2011-06-05 06:54:44 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, but I guess it's best to leave my personal bias out of it
 988 2011-06-05 06:54:47 <gmaxwell> feh. technology people. Obsessive about absolutes.
 989 2011-06-05 06:54:51 * gmaxwell back to bed
 990 2011-06-05 06:54:55 <eianpsego> lol
 991 2011-06-05 06:55:42 <jrmithdobbs> fuckin dnssec crap
 992 2011-06-05 06:55:44 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
 993 2011-06-05 06:56:08 <jrmithdobbs> accidentally set hard inactive/delete times on an internal zone's keys. good times.
 994 2011-06-05 06:56:26 <jrmithdobbs> wrong chan
 995 2011-06-05 06:59:41 <darbsllim> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150205775363810.329783.500153809&l=e9956b146f
 996 2011-06-05 06:59:54 <darbsllim> theres the evolution of my bitcoin mining rig so far if anyone's interested =P
 997 2011-06-05 07:01:49 <jrmithdobbs> you'll get better cooling enclosing those cards.
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1001 2011-06-05 07:04:37 <darbsllim> jrmithdobbs why do you say that
1002 2011-06-05 07:04:45 <jrmithdobbs> because physics
1003 2011-06-05 07:04:57 <jrmithdobbs> also, experience
1004 2011-06-05 07:05:36 <jrmithdobbs> darbsllim: you basically want to construct an air duct around the cards to push/suck the heat off asap
1005 2011-06-05 07:07:12 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1006 2011-06-05 07:09:00 <darbsllim> I would probably like to build a duct for them
1007 2011-06-05 07:09:10 <darbsllim> but right now hey are running pretty cool
1008 2011-06-05 07:09:14 <somecoiner> silly question: Is there still no openCL lib for perl?
1009 2011-06-05 07:09:20 <darbsllim> they range from 60 - 80 C
1010 2011-06-05 07:10:55 <jrmithdobbs> darbsllim: i took gpus from ~85-94C in an 80F ambient room to ~72-82C with proper airflow and  completely enclosing
1011 2011-06-05 07:11:09 <darbsllim> got any pics/vids?
1012 2011-06-05 07:11:16 <darbsllim> I'd love to see some examples of how to do it
1013 2011-06-05 07:11:24 <jrmithdobbs> i did it the old fashion way
1014 2011-06-05 07:11:25 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
1015 2011-06-05 07:11:28 <jrmithdobbs> in a case
1016 2011-06-05 07:11:31 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1017 2011-06-05 07:12:08 <jrmithdobbs> with proper intake/outtake setup, some cardboard directing airflow, and duct taping every open space closed
1018 2011-06-05 07:13:57 karnac_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1019 2011-06-05 07:14:23 karnac has joined
1020 2011-06-05 07:15:57 <darbsllim> i'll have to look into it thanks fo rthe suggetoin
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1026 2011-06-05 07:21:44 Nicksasa is now known as Sleep!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
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1034 2011-06-05 07:31:23 <wistiu> sup dude
1035 2011-06-05 07:31:26 dbitcoin has joined
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1037 2011-06-05 07:35:07 temphuman has left ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
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1044 2011-06-05 07:39:53 <samfisher> anyone wishes to fix this payment module for prestashop? http://www.bposhaughnessy.com/electronics/?p=43
1045 2011-06-05 07:40:02 <samfisher> it won't save the order details
1046 2011-06-05 07:41:22 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1047 2011-06-05 07:41:47 TheAncientGoat has joined
1048 2011-06-05 07:43:01 m00p has joined
1049 2011-06-05 07:48:59 <somecoiner> is poclbm threaded ?
1050 2011-06-05 07:50:21 NOTtheMessiah has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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1053 2011-06-05 07:54:40 <jrmithdobbs> am I dumb or is there no -noirc option?
1054 2011-06-05 07:55:01 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1055 2011-06-05 07:55:16 <theymos> It does exist.
1056 2011-06-05 07:55:20 <jrmithdobbs> say i want to start a node that doesn't connect to irc or use dns seed but relies entirely on -addnode or -connect
1057 2011-06-05 07:55:42 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: it's not in the -h output
1058 2011-06-05 07:56:01 <theymos> Many options are not listed there.
1059 2011-06-05 07:56:57 <jrmithdobbs> then how with -nolisten -noirc did an empty client start grabbing blocks?
1060 2011-06-05 07:57:15 <theymos> It connects to the seednodes.
1061 2011-06-05 07:57:54 <jrmithdobbs> any way to stop that?
1062 2011-06-05 07:58:03 <jrmithdobbs> sans patching
1063 2011-06-05 07:58:45 <theymos> Using -connect should stop it.
1064 2011-06-05 07:59:04 <theymos> Connect is "connect ONLY to these nodes".
1065 2011-06-05 07:59:24 <jrmithdobbs> but what if I'm currently not wanting it to connect to ANY nodes
1066 2011-06-05 07:59:50 <jrmithdobbs> i'm testing some wallet crap and i need it up for a bit without p2p connection at all
1067 2011-06-05 08:00:16 <theymos> You could try "-connect"ing to a non-existant address.
1068 2011-06-05 08:00:22 <somecoiner> your wallet may be out of state if it does not have recent blocks
1069 2011-06-05 08:00:27 <jrmithdobbs> there is no wallet
1070 2011-06-05 08:09:03 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1071 2011-06-05 08:09:31  has joined
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1077 2011-06-05 08:16:26 <genjix> theymos: cxu vi komprenas min?
1078 2011-06-05 08:16:45 <theymos> No.
1079 2011-06-05 08:16:49 <genjix> heh ok
1080 2011-06-05 08:17:01 <theymos> Is that Esperanto?
1081 2011-06-05 08:17:02 <genjix> theymos.com <- cool site
1082 2011-06-05 08:17:04 <genjix> yeah
1083 2011-06-05 08:17:38 <genjix> we share exact same interests XD
1084 2011-06-05 08:17:39 <theymos> I don't really have time to study languages, though I find them interesting. This summer I was planning on learning the Kanji.
1085 2011-06-05 08:17:54 <genjix> isaac asimov is the best
1086 2011-06-05 08:18:52 <theymos> Yeah. There was a cool web game based on the Foundation series that I really liked, but it disappeared.
1087 2011-06-05 08:19:03 metonymous has joined
1088 2011-06-05 08:19:14 <genjix> did you hear hollywood wants to make a movie about it?
1089 2011-06-05 08:19:23 <theymos> I did not. Probably it will be terrible.
1090 2011-06-05 08:19:43 <genjix> http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2010/02/11/exclusive-roland-emmerich-plans-foundation-as-3-d-motion-capture-epic/
1091 2011-06-05 08:19:50 <genjix> "The 'Avatar' technology applies to 'Foundation,' " Emmerich said. "It has to be done all CG because I would not know how to shoot this thing in real."
1092 2011-06-05 08:20:22 <theymos> What nonsense. It would work fine without CG.
1093 2011-06-05 08:20:39 <genjix> lol
1094 2011-06-05 08:20:45 <genjix> expect a love scene too
1095 2011-06-05 08:20:52 tonik has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1096 2011-06-05 08:20:58 <genjix> and harry sheldon car chase/battle
1097 2011-06-05 08:21:44 jivvz has joined
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1099 2011-06-05 08:22:45 <theymos> It's really about the interactions between people, which is why it can't really work in a movie. They're just taking the names of people/places and a minimal story outline, probably.
1100 2011-06-05 08:22:56 <wistiu> does bitcoind log anywhere
1101 2011-06-05 08:22:59 <theymos> debug.log
1102 2011-06-05 08:23:07 <wistiu> oh hehe thx
1103 2011-06-05 08:23:11 <genjix> wistiu: tail -f debug.log
1104 2011-06-05 08:23:35 <genjix> theymos: yeah. just lots of talking... trantor's policy is non violent subversion
1105 2011-06-05 08:23:46 <genjix> so i don't see the scope for action there.
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1107 2011-06-05 08:24:01 <genjix> it will be like I, Robot
1108 2011-06-05 08:24:24 <genjix> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/piss_grave4.jpg
1109 2011-06-05 08:24:26 <theymos> I, Robot the movie was not that bad, I think, though it had nothing to do with the book.
1110 2011-06-05 08:24:30 <wistiu>  height=16339
1111 2011-06-05 08:24:52 <genjix> hmm, seemed pretty terrible to me :p
1112 2011-06-05 08:24:59 <genjix> I, Robot in a nutshell: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/i_robot.jpg
1113 2011-06-05 08:25:15 <theymos> Since I wrote that bio on theymos.com years ago, I've found some scifi I actually like better: The Culture series by Banks. I bet you'd like it.
1114 2011-06-05 08:25:47 <genjix> have you read Ringworld by Larry Niven?
1115 2011-06-05 08:25:51 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1116 2011-06-05 08:25:57 <theymos> No.
1117 2011-06-05 08:26:00 <genjix> reading that now.
1118 2011-06-05 08:26:14 nazgulnarsil has joined
1119 2011-06-05 08:26:34 <genjix> oh sweet, The Culture actually seems very interesting.
1120 2011-06-05 08:26:44 <theymos> The Culture has "orbitals", which are apparently like the ringworld(s) in that book.
1121 2011-06-05 08:27:03 <genjix> post scarcity + anarchy
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1123 2011-06-05 08:27:57 <theymos> It's what made me an anarchist, I think. (Capitalist, though.)
1124 2011-06-05 08:27:57 <nazgulnarsil> Iain Banks is a nutjob though.  he thinks the Culture is ammo for current ideology despite its conditions being devorced from reality (scarcity)
1125 2011-06-05 08:28:20 <nazgulnarsil> He writes nice books though :)
1126 2011-06-05 08:28:49 <theymos> I haven't read his opinions on reality.
1127 2011-06-05 08:29:18 <nazgulnarsil> He says the culture is his attempt to take back sci-fi for the left (since sci-fi is pretty hardcore libertarian generally)
1128 2011-06-05 08:29:53 <genjix> well left/right is very inspecific
1129 2011-06-05 08:29:55 <theymos> I still read it in a libertarian way. :)
1130 2011-06-05 08:29:56 <nazgulnarsil> I think Ursula LeGuin is much better in that role though.  She examines the conflict without coming down hard on either side
1131 2011-06-05 08:30:07 <genjix> my understanding of anarchy is that it means lots of small experiments.
1132 2011-06-05 08:30:24 <genjix> so if you live in an anacom community then you must contribute back.
1133 2011-06-05 08:30:44 <genjix> but you can leave if you don't like it to a different style community.
1134 2011-06-05 08:30:50 <genjix> this way we find the best society.
1135 2011-06-05 08:30:58 <nazgulnarsil> that was tried, there was a war.
1136 2011-06-05 08:31:06 <metonymous> theymos: anarchocapitalist
1137 2011-06-05 08:31:17 <wistiu> bitcoind is multithreaded
1138 2011-06-05 08:31:21 <wistiu> great
1139 2011-06-05 08:31:59 <theymos> Maybe there is a way to make anarcho-communism work, who knows? As long as it's not forced on me, I don't care what you do.
1140 2011-06-05 08:32:11 <zamgo> Look, there's some lovely mud down here!
1141 2011-06-05 08:32:20 <nazgulnarsil> collectivist syetms tend to optimize for conquering.
1142 2011-06-05 08:32:22 <metonymous> i think a simpler way to make our own 'states' and trade as them
1143 2011-06-05 08:32:24 <metonymous> is important
1144 2011-06-05 08:32:29 <wistiu> i wonder why bitcoind stopped at 26000
1145 2011-06-05 08:32:43 <nazgulnarsil> they bankrupt themselves and rather than change ideologies they enslave their neighbors.  its a very successful paradigm of development.
1146 2011-06-05 08:32:52 <zamgo> "King? I didn't know we had a king.  I thought we were an autonomous collective'
1147 2011-06-05 08:33:10 <zeshoem> ;;bc,gen 3000
1148 2011-06-05 08:33:11 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.00693861813965 BTC per day and 0.000289109089152 BTC per hour.
1149 2011-06-05 08:33:14 <nazgulnarsil> check out Mancur Olsen's stationary bandit hypothesis
1150 2011-06-05 08:34:06 <nazgulnarsil> ;;bc, gen 600000
1151 2011-06-05 08:34:06 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
1152 2011-06-05 08:34:18 <genjix> theymos: right. equally true for anacap communities :)
1153 2011-06-05 08:34:45 <nazgulnarsil> ;;bc,gen 600000
1154 2011-06-05 08:34:46 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 1.38772362793 BTC per day and 0.0578218178304 BTC per hour.
1155 2011-06-05 08:35:05 <nazgulnarsil> so .6 of that after next jump
1156 2011-06-05 08:35:08 <nazgulnarsil> lame
1157 2011-06-05 08:35:17 <zeshoem> ;;bc,gen 400000
1158 2011-06-05 08:35:18 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.925149085286 BTC per day and 0.0385478785536 BTC per hour.
1159 2011-06-05 08:40:52 vitaminD is now known as JacobLandau6`
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1196 2011-06-05 09:30:25 <adam___> hello
1197 2011-06-05 09:31:03 genjix has left ()
1198 2011-06-05 09:31:09 <adam___> is there any way to know when a transaction has been made? some sort of rest notification in order to integrate it on web apps
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1207 2011-06-05 09:40:32 RAM2012 has joined
1208 2011-06-05 09:41:58 <RAM2012> so it seems like new blocks are coming in slow now, is that because of the difficulty?
1209 2011-06-05 09:42:28 <RAM2012> will the expected time to get X confirmations go up over time?
1210 2011-06-05 09:42:50 <theymos> No. Difficulty adjusts so that each confirmation is about 10 minutes apart.
1211 2011-06-05 09:42:53 KIWIMINER has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1212 2011-06-05 09:43:00 <RAM2012> ah I see, thx
1213 2011-06-05 09:44:40 <nazgulnarsil> but the expected blocks before a free transaction matures WILL go up over time.
1214 2011-06-05 09:45:12 <nazgulnarsil> anyone graphig how long various transactions take at various sizes and various fees?
1215 2011-06-05 09:45:58 <RAM2012> only magicalTux could currently do that, really
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1219 2011-06-05 09:53:29 <da2ce7> ok... so my bitcoin client takes AGES to find connections??? is there some shit going down on the network?
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1221 2011-06-05 09:54:48 Nes-asleep is now known as Nesetalis
1222 2011-06-05 09:54:54 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: start with -noirc -dnsseed commandline options should take care of that
1223 2011-06-05 09:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: assuming you're running 3.21
1224 2011-06-05 09:55:17 <da2ce7> yep
1225 2011-06-05 09:55:21 <jrmithdobbs> (or newer)
1226 2011-06-05 09:55:26 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: it's a bug
1227 2011-06-05 09:55:52 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: got exascerbated by the huge influx of new users who don't have port 8333 accessible
1228 2011-06-05 09:56:13 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|AFK
1229 2011-06-05 09:56:13 <da2ce7> we should be using hole punching.
1230 2011-06-05 09:56:49 <roconnor> http://blockexplorer.com/t/8e8QuoaRxJ -- this is the first transaction with a non-negative-one sequence number!
1231 2011-06-05 09:56:57 Kurtov has joined
1232 2011-06-05 09:57:05 <roconnor> I thought it was illegal to have non-negative-one sequence numbers included in blocks.
1233 2011-06-05 09:58:25 <theymos> Nope.
1234 2011-06-05 09:58:30 <da2ce7> jrmithdobbs, has it been fixed for v/.22 ?
1235 2011-06-05 09:58:41 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: nope
1236 2011-06-05 09:58:48 <da2ce7> ;;bc,blocks
1237 2011-06-05 09:58:49 <roconnor> sipa: I finally found a block my code couldn't read.
1238 2011-06-05 09:58:50 <gribble> 128743
1239 2011-06-05 09:58:58 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: there's actually several different contributing factors
1240 2011-06-05 09:59:19 <da2ce7> jrmithdobbs, why don't we just take the bittorrent tracker code.
1241 2011-06-05 09:59:37 <jrmithdobbs> because it works nothing like that?
1242 2011-06-05 09:59:37 <da2ce7> and connect to a list of trackers insted of a irc server?
1243 2011-06-05 09:59:45 <jrmithdobbs> that's not the problem
1244 2011-06-05 09:59:53 <da2ce7> hmmm?
1245 2011-06-05 10:00:06 <jrmithdobbs> the problem isn't the source of the seed it has to do with how it connects()
1246 2011-06-05 10:00:16 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
1247 2011-06-05 10:00:21 <jrmithdobbs> also, that would centralize things further instead of decentralizing them which defeats the point
1248 2011-06-05 10:01:35 <da2ce7> so how are we working to make it fast?
1249 2011-06-05 10:01:46 adam___ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1250 2011-06-05 10:01:49 eoss has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1251 2011-06-05 10:01:50 <jrmithdobbs> it's being worked on
1252 2011-06-05 10:02:26 <theymos> What's wrong with just using the seednodes? I don't see the need for any other bootstrap method.
1253 2011-06-05 10:02:52 <jrmithdobbs> seed nodes can be shut down
1254 2011-06-05 10:02:54 <jrmithdobbs> very easily
1255 2011-06-05 10:03:15 <theymos> DNS/IRC servers can also be shut down.
1256 2011-06-05 10:03:31 <jrmithdobbs> it makes them a target, and it doesn't matter, same problem would get introduced if a non-marginal number of seed nodes stopped responding for whatever reason
1257 2011-06-05 10:03:49 kiwiMINER has joined
1258 2011-06-05 10:03:51 <jrmithdobbs> the seed method isn't the problem
1259 2011-06-05 10:04:07 <da2ce7> why don't we make it possilbe for for a 'request for connection' be sent to a 2nd' node that connects the 1st to the 3rd even tho using NAT?
1260 2011-06-05 10:04:13 <kiwiMINER> Hey, has anyone tried using the bitomatPLN exchange? Could anyone engliten me as to their times/fees/expericen etc. thanks :D
1261 2011-06-05 10:04:17 <da2ce7> aka NAT hole punching...
1262 2011-06-05 10:04:25 <jrmithdobbs> because urmom
1263 2011-06-05 10:05:02 <da2ce7> that is what skype and a few other proticols use... aka freenet
1264 2011-06-05 10:05:23 <jrmithdobbs> the answer is that the net code is not in the best shape right now
1265 2011-06-05 10:05:37 <jrmithdobbs> the short version, at least
1266 2011-06-05 10:06:16 <da2ce7> hmmm... still no connections. :(
1267 2011-06-05 10:06:27 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: delete addr.dat in your bitcoin dir
1268 2011-06-05 10:06:28 <dinox> The current developers are, I believe, very technically skilled. And that is also their Achilles? heel. A person who is great at making complex logic work flawlessly is never great at making that logic easy to use and understand. - Rick Falkvinge
1269 2011-06-05 10:06:48 <theymos> I wonder if it would be faster to use UDP to check whether a host is online, and then try TCP if that works.
1270 2011-06-05 10:07:56 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: see /msg
1271 2011-06-05 10:10:38 <nazgulnarsil> wrong, people with deep understanding are good at expliaing things simply.
1272 2011-06-05 10:11:18 <nazgulnarsil> it's just that often people who come up with clever hacks don't necessarily have deep understanding.
1273 2011-06-05 10:12:05 <nazgulnarsil> the best programmers I know never need to use clever hacks because they use superior planning to avoid situations where a clever solution would be essential.
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1277 2011-06-05 10:22:46 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen MagicalTux
1278 2011-06-05 10:22:47 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> pong
1279 2011-06-05 10:25:43 Incitatus has joined
1280 2011-06-05 10:27:15 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
1281 2011-06-05 10:27:29 <phantomcircuit> bah
1282 2011-06-05 10:28:57 <BlueMatt> anyone else have a windows box and can help test a bit
1283 2011-06-05 10:29:08 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
1284 2011-06-05 10:30:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, there is a windows box here but it's in use
1285 2011-06-05 10:30:27 <phantomcircuit> it's running a git trunk build with my non blocking connect patch
1286 2011-06-05 10:30:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: windows build failed?
1287 2011-06-05 10:30:42 blueCmd has joined
1288 2011-06-05 10:30:48 <BlueMatt> can you install 0.3.22-rc6 and point ufasoft miner at it
1289 2011-06-05 10:30:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, but all rcs appear to crash when you point ufasoft at them
1290 2011-06-05 10:31:04 <BlueMatt> including git head/release
1291 2011-06-05 10:31:09 <sipa> wow
1292 2011-06-05 10:31:17 <blueCmd> is there any work being done writing a dissector for wireshark to the bitcoin protocol?
1293 2011-06-05 10:31:34 <blueCmd> I would love to write one if there arn't.
1294 2011-06-05 10:31:59 <sipa> blueCmd: i dont know about that, but it'd very useful
1295 2011-06-05 10:32:03 <phantomcircuit> blueCmd, not that im aware of
1296 2011-06-05 10:32:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you find out since when?
1297 2011-06-05 10:32:36 nazgulnarsil has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1298 2011-06-05 10:32:36 <BlueMatt> working on it
1299 2011-06-05 10:32:53 <BlueMatt> just found it last night when I got home...and just woke up :)
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1302 2011-06-05 10:35:09 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if it would crash a linux build
1303 2011-06-05 10:35:15 m00p has joined
1304 2011-06-05 10:35:16 <phantomcircuit> debugging on windows is a bitch
1305 2011-06-05 10:35:23 <BlueMatt> havent tried it...
1306 2011-06-05 10:36:03 <sipa> let's try
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1313 2011-06-05 10:37:49 <BlueMatt> oh, well it happens with 0.3.21 as well
1314 2011-06-05 10:38:02 <diki> bluematt how much do you sleep? 6 hours ??
1315 2011-06-05 10:38:22 <BlueMatt> diki: went to bed at ~3, got up at ~11
1316 2011-06-05 10:38:32 dbitcoin has joined
1317 2011-06-05 10:38:40 <diki> same as me then. Went to bed at 6:30AM and woke up 12:30
1318 2011-06-05 10:39:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: well I started last night when I saw yet another complaint about 100% cpu usage, this time he said ufasoft...so I pointed it and it crashes 0.3.21 +, havent gone back further
1319 2011-06-05 10:39:50 erle- has joined
1320 2011-06-05 10:39:55 <BlueMatt> however, since its not a regression...Im comfortable building 0.3.22 release
1321 2011-06-05 10:40:14 <erle-> why does the original client always pay fees?
1322 2011-06-05 10:40:45 <erle-> that does not prevent any attacker, because he wouldnt use it anyway
1323 2011-06-05 10:40:56 jaromil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1324 2011-06-05 10:41:03 <erle-> but it is annoying for users, that 0.00001 BTC transactions cost 0.01 BTC of fees
1325 2011-06-05 10:41:04 Klash_ has joined
1326 2011-06-05 10:41:23 <sipa> erle-: it is to discourage spam transactions
1327 2011-06-05 10:41:34 <blueCmd> sipa: phantomcircuit: great, then i'll get started
1328 2011-06-05 10:41:43 <erle-> sipa, but it doesnt
1329 2011-06-05 10:41:46 <sipa> erle-: and it does prevent against attacks, as other node will not pass such transactions on
1330 2011-06-05 10:41:51 <erle-> sipa, spammers wouldnt use the original client
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1332 2011-06-05 10:41:56 <sipa> doesn't matter
1333 2011-06-05 10:42:03 <sipa> enough nodes in the network do
1334 2011-06-05 10:42:12 <sipa> and that is the reason that changing this is so hard
1335 2011-06-05 10:42:29 <erle-> but then the fees should change with the value of BTC
1336 2011-06-05 10:42:43 <sipa> nobody expected such a quick increase
1337 2011-06-05 10:42:45 <erle-> what was a small fee 3 weeks ago is no annoying high
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1339 2011-06-05 10:42:53 <Doc_M> yah
1340 2011-06-05 10:42:58 <sipa> and yes indeed, it should be, be the current system is temporary
1341 2011-06-05 10:43:09 <sipa> until some more flexible scheme has been thought out
1342 2011-06-05 10:43:15 <erle-> sipa, other clients can send feeless transactions
1343 2011-06-05 10:43:24 <theymos> Once transaction reversal is implemented, all of this preset fee stuff can be gotten rid of, since there will be no serious consequence to choosing the wrong fee.
1344 2011-06-05 10:43:25 <sipa> erle-: depends
1345 2011-06-05 10:43:34 <erle-> so how does the client by forcing the user to pay fees help at all?
1346 2011-06-05 10:43:36 RBecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me.  You love me so much, and I never want to let it go.  You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
1347 2011-06-05 10:44:07 <sipa> erle-: there are some transactions which are currently not accepted or passed on by the network at all
1348 2011-06-05 10:44:25 <sipa> and there are others for which no fee just makes them low priority
1349 2011-06-05 10:44:45 <erle-> sipa, yes, but with the client i cant even have low priority
1350 2011-06-05 10:44:51 <sipa> i know
1351 2011-06-05 10:44:54 <sipa> we're working on it
1352 2011-06-05 10:45:16 RBecker has joined
1353 2011-06-05 10:45:22 <erle-> ok, i just wanted to know what the intention is
1354 2011-06-05 10:45:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, git head can though right?
1355 2011-06-05 10:45:36 <erle-> i was expecting that you have reasons why its like that
1356 2011-06-05 10:45:38 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no
1357 2011-06-05 10:45:43 <phantomcircuit> oh
1358 2011-06-05 10:45:45 <erle-> and its perfectly fine that it itsnt perfect yet
1359 2011-06-05 10:45:47 <phantomcircuit> that's unfortunate
1360 2011-06-05 10:45:54 <theymos> If everyone was running 0.3.21, those required fees really would be required by the network. That's why it requires them.
1361 2011-06-05 10:46:04 <sipa> phantomcircuit: we just have to make sure the network is 'ready' to accept lower fees
1362 2011-06-05 10:46:24 <Doc_M> .01 is just too big right now
1363 2011-06-05 10:46:36 <sipa> Doc_M: nobody will argue with that
1364 2011-06-05 10:46:37 <erle-> theymos, but thats a stupid assertion (that everybody uses that client)
1365 2011-06-05 10:46:51 <sipa> erle-: most people do
1366 2011-06-05 10:46:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hehe i could just connect to miners ;)
1367 2011-06-05 10:47:02 <erle-> sipa, i know
1368 2011-06-05 10:47:08 <io_error> It's the mining pools that will have to upgrade
1369 2011-06-05 10:47:13 <BlueMatt> ok windows builds done, linux running...eta to 0.3.22 release ~30 minutes :) (assuming jgarzik gets on to put them on sf)
1370 2011-06-05 10:47:38 <sipa> we'll add looking into that bug you noticed now for 0.3.23, i guess
1371 2011-06-05 10:47:41 <diki> the new doctor who episode is epic
1372 2011-06-05 10:47:53 <diki> the special effects have never been better...awesome effects
1373 2011-06-05 10:48:20 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1374 2011-06-05 10:48:21 <gribble> 128755
1375 2011-06-05 10:48:27 <theymos> erle-: In the past almost all miners did run the latest official client. Now miners are using custom fee rules.
1376 2011-06-05 10:48:42 <phantomcircuit> lol the miners are going at faster than 10 minutes between blocks
1377 2011-06-05 10:48:58 <erle-> how can i get my client connect, sometimes it just doesnt
1378 2011-06-05 10:49:22 <phantomcircuit> erle-, it's a bug, you'll eventually connect, but eventually could be days, windows or linux x86_64?
1379 2011-06-05 10:49:22 <erle-> i am here on irc with the same computer and he does not find any peer
1380 2011-06-05 10:49:34 <erle-> linux x86_64
1381 2011-06-05 10:49:49 <sipa> erle-: use -addnode=IP on the command line
1382 2011-06-05 10:49:58 <sipa> with IP that of one of the fallback nodes eg.
1383 2011-06-05 10:50:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, doesn't -addnode simply add the ip to the pool of available ips?
1384 2011-06-05 10:50:24 <phantomcircuit> or does it force a connection to that peer?
1385 2011-06-05 10:50:33 <da2ce7> finnaly, have re-downloading the block chain...
1386 2011-06-05 10:50:43 <theymos> It forces a connection.
1387 2011-06-05 10:50:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no, it connects immediately
1388 2011-06-05 10:51:04 <da2ce7> bitcoin connection = very shitty.
1389 2011-06-05 10:51:27 metonymous has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1390 2011-06-05 10:51:52 <theymos> Bitcoin really wasn't ready for all this publicity.
1391 2011-06-05 10:51:59 <sipa> indeed
1392 2011-06-05 10:52:08 dc11_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1393 2011-06-05 10:52:38 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, the connection stuff isn't the problem with block chain download, it's the algorithm used to download blocks being single threaded
1394 2011-06-05 10:52:56 <io_error> phantomcircuit: I was just thinking about that yesterday
1395 2011-06-05 10:53:18 <somecoiner> it has done quite well so far
1396 2011-06-05 10:53:24 <da2ce7> phantomcircuit, it took like 15 min to find 1 peer.
1397 2011-06-05 10:53:36 <da2ce7> and that peer kept on dropping out.
1398 2011-06-05 10:53:46 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, yeah that is a well known bug at this point which i have a patch for
1399 2011-06-05 10:53:59 <phantomcircuit> da2ce7, windows or linux x64?
1400 2011-06-05 10:54:13 <da2ce7> windows 7 x64
1401 2011-06-05 10:54:18 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it will be incorporated for 0.3.23 probably
1402 2011-06-05 10:54:19 <io_error> phantomcircuit: I've seen it on linux 64
1403 2011-06-05 10:54:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you're wrong about -addnode, btw it simply calls AddAddress, which adds the node to the pool of available ips
1404 2011-06-05 10:54:42 <io_error> ...which is why I forwarded the port
1405 2011-06-05 10:54:44 <erle-> sipa, my problem to begin with is that the faucet gives you 0.01, and you cant do anything because the fee is always at least 0.01
1406 2011-06-05 10:54:56 <sipa> phantomcircuit: see net.cpp line 1174 in git head
1407 2011-06-05 10:55:05 <phantomcircuit> io_error, i onoly have builds for windows and linux x64 sicne gentoo refuses to cross compile wxGTK:2.9 for i686
1408 2011-06-05 10:55:19 <gjs278> you can install both 2.8 and 2.9
1409 2011-06-05 10:55:29 <gjs278> it will slot
1410 2011-06-05 10:55:32 <io_error> phantomcircuit: Heh, I think I can manage to compile my own :)
1411 2011-06-05 10:55:41 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i must admit i especially despice the handling of command-line arguments in multiple source files
1412 2011-06-05 10:55:46 <sipa> despise?
1413 2011-06-05 10:55:51 subpar has joined
1414 2011-06-05 10:55:55 <phantomcircuit> lol you're line numbers aren't going to match up at all :P
1415 2011-06-05 10:56:20 <sipa> i think "1174 in current git head" is pretty much unambiguous
1416 2011-06-05 10:56:40 <sipa> da2ce7: there are 2 problems: 1) connection timeouts take way too long, and 2) more and more clients that are not reachable from the internet
1417 2011-06-05 10:56:44 <phantomcircuit> yes
1418 2011-06-05 10:57:14 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah was not expecting argument handling in net.cpp
1419 2011-06-05 10:57:18 <phantomcircuit> but i guess i should have
1420 2011-06-05 10:57:30 <sipa> gotta go, food
1421 2011-06-05 10:59:21 <Doc_M> hey sipa why doesn't the main client support bitcoin URIs?
1422 2011-06-05 10:59:43 <BlueMatt> Doc_M: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/182
1423 2011-06-05 11:00:05 <cyberdo> the difficulty... can it be decreased or only increased?
1424 2011-06-05 11:00:14 <BlueMatt> both
1425 2011-06-05 11:00:39 payload has joined
1426 2011-06-05 11:01:19 <cyberdo> I was thinking of the testnet... shouldn't the difficulty be lowered by it self since it takes about 2-3 hours/block now?
1427 2011-06-05 11:01:25 <erle-> sipa, http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000000c933634d6b8706cc3552848c48b058395840aa337566e8077c2
1428 2011-06-05 11:01:32 <erle-> half of the people dont pay fees
1429 2011-06-05 11:01:43 <theymos> cyberdo: It only adjusts every 2016 blocks.
1430 2011-06-05 11:02:33 <cyberdo> doh
1431 2011-06-05 11:02:55 <cyberdo> thanks for the explaination at least
1432 2011-06-05 11:02:57 <BlueMatt> erle-: yes, so? the main client only sends fees when required, not always
1433 2011-06-05 11:03:03 cdecker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1434 2011-06-05 11:03:10 <da2ce7> theymos, testnet diffiutliy should be adjusted down every 200 block... but only adjusted up every 2016
1435 2011-06-05 11:03:11 <erle-> BlueMatt, it always asks me for fees
1436 2011-06-05 11:03:22 cdecker has joined
1437 2011-06-05 11:03:31 <erle-> BlueMatt, and i just have some faucet BTcents
1438 2011-06-05 11:03:33 <da2ce7> or something like that.
1439 2011-06-05 11:03:53 zooko has joined
1440 2011-06-05 11:04:04 <BlueMatt> erle-: it will if you have recent inputs + small outputs
1441 2011-06-05 11:04:42 <BlueMatt> it calculates a priority, and if it is too low, it will make you pay a fee
1442 2011-06-05 11:04:43 <erle-> what does "recent" mean? 24 hours?
1443 2011-06-05 11:05:12 <erle-> my coins were here for 25 hours now
1444 2011-06-05 11:05:44 <erle-> its ok in principle, i just want to know the intention, why its like that
1445 2011-06-05 11:05:58 jaromil has joined
1446 2011-06-05 11:06:55 <BlueMatt> erle-: priority must be > COIN * 144 / 250;
1447 2011-06-05 11:07:06 <theymos> Miners refuse low-priority transactions to prevent spam. Bitcoin requires a fee for these same low-priority transactions so such transactions are not stuck in limbo for weeks.
1448 2011-06-05 11:07:18 cdecker has left ()
1449 2011-06-05 11:08:59 <BlueMatt> and prio is foreach in, prio += nValueIn * nConf all / txsize
1450 2011-06-05 11:09:08 <BlueMatt> nConf being age
1451 2011-06-05 11:11:53 <BlueMatt> (ie depth in chain)
1452 2011-06-05 11:14:04 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
1453 2011-06-05 11:14:35 <theymos> Am I right in calculating that a 220-byte transaction with just a 0.01 input would need 12672 confirmations to get past the limit? That seems high.
1454 2011-06-05 11:15:09 <Doc_M> past what limit?
1455 2011-06-05 11:15:23 <theymos> The priority limit for inclusion in blocks.
1456 2011-06-05 11:15:40 <BlueMatt> it can still get included in blocks before that
1457 2011-06-05 11:15:56 <Doc_M> it can get included in a block as every miner can set their own limit
1458 2011-06-05 11:16:08 <theymos> (Ignoring the 4kb space.)
1459 2011-06-05 11:16:33 <Doc_M> does the client tell you when your transaction has been included in a block?
1460 2011-06-05 11:16:46 <io_error> Doc_M: Of course
1461 2011-06-05 11:16:54 <theymos> It goes from 0 confirmations to 1.
1462 2011-06-05 11:17:16 <Doc_M> ok I am confused now, wrt  to what theymos said
1463 2011-06-05 11:17:58 <Doc_M> if there is a 12672 confirmation hurtle then how can 1 confirmation mean you are now in a block?
1464 2011-06-05 11:19:00 <theymos> That's for the transaction that sent the coins that you are now spending.
1465 2011-06-05 11:19:34 <sipa> the input needs 12672 confirmations
1466 2011-06-05 11:19:49 <sipa> before the tx itself is included
1467 2011-06-05 11:20:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: have you built 0.3.22 release yet?
1468 2011-06-05 11:21:16 tauri has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1469 2011-06-05 11:21:42 tauri has joined
1470 2011-06-05 11:22:13 <roconnor> Good morning sipa
1471 2011-06-05 11:23:42 <erle-> theymos, i am not talking about miners, the client rejects the transaction
1472 2011-06-05 11:24:04 <erle-> it tells the user "no chance without fee", which is false
1473 2011-06-05 11:24:04 <roconnor> da2ce7: the more testnet deviates from mainnet, the less useful it is.
1474 2011-06-05 11:24:19 KingMartin has joined
1475 2011-06-05 11:24:24 <da2ce7> hmm I guess...
1476 2011-06-05 11:26:24 <da2ce7> I've got a old test-net wallet. anyone want to borrow it?
1477 2011-06-05 11:27:53 <theymos> erle-: The client rejects it based on mining policy.
1478 2011-06-05 11:28:19 <erle-> theymos, yes, but that doesnt make sense
1479 2011-06-05 11:28:38 <erle-> policy doesnt make sense at all
1480 2011-06-05 11:28:57 <erle-> the whole point in bitcoins is a system that works without policy
1481 2011-06-05 11:29:49 <erle-> every miner can have his policy, but thats not the business of clients nor other miners
1482 2011-06-05 11:30:31 <BlueMatt> it is the business of other clients when they have to pay the bw to push it around the network
1483 2011-06-05 11:30:34 <theymos> If you match your sending rules to mining rules, the chance of creating transactions that will be rejected by everyone is greatly reduced. Creating permanantly-stuck transactions is really bad, since Bitcoin doesn't yet offer a way of reversing stuck transactions. Once that ability is implemented, then IMO forceful fee rules for sending can be totally removed.
1484 2011-06-05 11:31:21 ferkel has joined
1485 2011-06-05 11:31:38 <Doc_M> I'm not sure if reversing ability is a good idea
1486 2011-06-05 11:31:42 <BlueMatt> maybe, but you should still have sane rules for relay as spam can cause problems there too
1487 2011-06-05 11:31:46 <Doc_M> if you want reversal use a bitcoin banking service
1488 2011-06-05 11:32:03 <Doc_M> cash shouldn't be reversable
1489 2011-06-05 11:32:07 <BlueMatt> not reverse, but add more fee
1490 2011-06-05 11:32:31 <Doc_M> I was responding to theymos
1491 2011-06-05 11:32:41 <BlueMatt> that is what he means
1492 2011-06-05 11:32:58 <theymos> You can't easily reverse them unless they're rejected, anyway.
1493 2011-06-05 11:33:25 <io_error> theymos: So this reversal...that means BEFORE it's included in a block, right?
1494 2011-06-05 11:33:31 <theymos> Of course.
1495 2011-06-05 11:33:46 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1496 2011-06-05 11:33:48 <BlueMatt> once its in a block, its in stone
1497 2011-06-05 11:34:00 zamgo has joined
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1499 2011-06-05 11:35:07 adam___ has joined
1500 2011-06-05 11:35:24 <theymos> Relaying and mining fees should be configurable in the GUI, with reasonable defaults. Every send dialog should accept any fee amount (once reversal is possible) -- the default for this should be based on analysis of past blocks.
1501 2011-06-05 11:35:48 <adam___> hi again, is there a way to know when a transaction has been made? something like a rest push, in order to integrate it on a webapp
1502 2011-06-05 11:36:38 <erle-> theymos, fact is, that most transactions are still feeless
1503 2011-06-05 11:36:41 <BlueMatt> theymos: no normal users remotely understands relaying fees, maybe configureable via cli, but not gui
1504 2011-06-05 11:36:50 <erle-> but users who want to play with some faucet cents are screwed
1505 2011-06-05 11:36:50 dissipate has joined
1506 2011-06-05 11:36:58 <erle-> you get 0.01 only, which is the minimal fee
1507 2011-06-05 11:37:01 <BlueMatt> erle-: as it should be, though maybe no where near so harsh
1508 2011-06-05 11:37:11 <Doc_M> adam__:there is an irc channel that broadcasts transactions
1509 2011-06-05 11:37:16 <erle-> even when there are miners who dont want fee, the client refuses even to try the transaction
1510 2011-06-05 11:37:44 <BlueMatt> as it should, as others wont relay it
1511 2011-06-05 11:37:50 <BlueMatt> so it wont get to the miner
1512 2011-06-05 11:38:03 <io_error> adam___: There's a patch for that
1513 2011-06-05 11:38:07 <BlueMatt> also, have you seen https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/289
1514 2011-06-05 11:38:13 <theymos> I think relay fees should be in some "advanced" section of the GUI. All options should be in the GUI.
1515 2011-06-05 11:38:43 <erle-> BlueMatt, thank you, you explained it well, no i see
1516 2011-06-05 11:38:45 <adam___> io_error: which will go online soon ?
1517 2011-06-05 11:39:00 <io_error> adam___: I hope so, depends on when Gavin gets around to cleaning it up
1518 2011-06-05 11:39:01 <erle-> i was ignoring the relay part
1519 2011-06-05 11:39:39 <BlueMatt> theymos: Im not entirely against being able to configure relay txfee, but Im not a big fan of it...
1520 2011-06-05 11:39:51 <BlueMatt> imo it should be as similar network-wide as we can get it
1521 2011-06-05 11:40:08 <BlueMatt> otherwise you start getting into the need to broadcast fee rules to your peers, which just gets messy
1522 2011-06-05 11:40:15 <erle-> ok, but then we still have the problem that the fee is too high, but thats nobodies fault
1523 2011-06-05 11:40:27 <adam___> io_error: ok... another question, which is quite harder.... will ever be implemented a system for recurrent payments? i mean, currently users put their credit card number and each month the price is payed automatically, how solve this with bitcoin ?
1524 2011-06-05 11:40:34 <io_error> erle-: Yes it is, it's the fault of the media for making Bitcoin so public!
1525 2011-06-05 11:40:53 <BlueMatt> mining fees should be configurable imo, but then miners are using cli, bitcoin.conf, or rpc anyway, so gui isnt necessary
1526 2011-06-05 11:41:00 <Doc_M> you can write a script on your computer that does this
1527 2011-06-05 11:41:06 <Doc_M> or use a wallet service
1528 2011-06-05 11:41:07 <io_error> adam___: I don't think the client will do that, you would want an online service to do that anyway
1529 2011-06-05 11:41:28 <erle-> io_error, unless you care what other people would pay for your coins, there is no change by media attention
1530 2011-06-05 11:41:37 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea, mining fees need to be re-thought and its on the to-do list
1531 2011-06-05 11:41:44 <BlueMatt> and fee structure
1532 2011-06-05 11:41:48 <io_error> erle-: That was a joke
1533 2011-06-05 11:41:57 <adam___> io_error: do you know if something already exist ?
1534 2011-06-05 11:42:05 <erle-> thank you all for you work by the way :)
1535 2011-06-05 11:42:14 <io_error> adam___: no, perhaps you should create it :)
1536 2011-06-05 11:42:31 <adam___> io_error: a sort of paypal for bitcoin...mmm... :)
1537 2011-06-05 11:42:41 <io_error> /headdesk
1538 2011-06-05 11:42:46 <io_error> NOOO PAYPAL!
1539 2011-06-05 11:42:49 <adam___> :P
1540 2011-06-05 11:43:01 <io_error> With pals like that, who needs enemies?
1541 2011-06-05 11:43:59 <theymos> I don't like outright rejecting transactions for relaying based on fees. It seems to me that this prevents the market from operating correctly (some miners might want to accept transactions at below the relay rate). Instead, I suggest that transactions below a certain fee level are randomly dropped based on a probablity weighted according to priority. This way, a determined sender can still get free/cheap transaction through.
1542 2011-06-05 11:44:00 ferkel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1543 2011-06-05 11:44:16 <adam___> io_error: the problem is that that service will have to provide a virtual wallet where users send their bitcoins, and then they'll be able to use them on webservices...... seems more like paypal to me as workflow (a part of the direct connection of bank-credit card that paypal has)
1544 2011-06-05 11:44:50 <BlueMatt> theymos: like a free tx space in mempool/relay or just heavily rate-limited
1545 2011-06-05 11:45:06 <BlueMatt> but yea, sure that would work...all this crap just needs implemented though
1546 2011-06-05 11:47:50 fimp has joined
1547 2011-06-05 11:50:19 <roconnor> erle-: clients could directly connect to a miner who accepts no fee transactions, right?
1548 2011-06-05 11:50:33 _Netsniper_ has joined
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1551 2011-06-05 11:53:03  has quit (Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-240-200-240.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1554 2011-06-05 11:55:47 WakiMiko_ is now known as WakiMiko
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1560 2011-06-05 12:11:12 DoubleBuLLets has joined
1561 2011-06-05 12:12:24 <erle-> roconnor, maybe my problem is related with the bug that it doesnt connect to peers?
1562 2011-06-05 12:12:38 <roconnor> ah
1563 2011-06-05 12:14:06 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1564 2011-06-05 12:14:56 adam___ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1565 2011-06-05 12:16:05 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
1566 2011-06-05 12:16:31 <erle-> roconnor, maybe it just tells me to pay fees because the two/three connected peers all want fees
1567 2011-06-05 12:16:52 <erle-> i cant remember having more than 2 peers at any time
1568 2011-06-05 12:17:00 Archevety has joined
1569 2011-06-05 12:17:05 <theymos> Bitcoin doesn't ask peers about fees. It always uses the same fee rules.
1570 2011-06-05 12:17:21 <erle-> theymos, no, it asks me
1571 2011-06-05 12:17:26 Klash_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1572 2011-06-05 12:17:27 <erle-> in a dialog window
1573 2011-06-05 12:17:35 Kurtov has joined
1574 2011-06-05 12:17:53 <erle-> like this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Lfm_fee.png
1575 2011-06-05 12:18:09 <theymos> "maybe it just tells me to pay fees because the two/three connected peers all want fees" <- This is false.
1576 2011-06-05 12:18:29 <theymos> You're asked to pay fees because of rules in your own client.
1577 2011-06-05 12:18:32 <sipa> erle-: so, it asks you whether you want to send it with a fee, or not send it
1578 2011-06-05 12:18:47 <erle-> i understand it
1579 2011-06-05 12:18:49 <sipa> because the transaction you're trying to send does not match its assumed policy rules
1580 2011-06-05 12:19:01 <erle-> but i see on blockexplorer, that most transactions are sent without fees
1581 2011-06-05 12:19:08 <sipa> *sigh*
1582 2011-06-05 12:19:27 <sipa> many transactions can be sent without fee according to the policy
1583 2011-06-05 12:19:30 <erle-> sorry, you dont have to explain again
1584 2011-06-05 12:19:34 <sipa> only those that are too "spammy" cannot
1585 2011-06-05 12:19:36 <sipa> or too large
1586 2011-06-05 12:19:39 <sipa> or have too small outputs
1587 2011-06-05 12:19:44 <erle-> i just wanted to explain why i said "it asked me"
1588 2011-06-05 12:20:01 <sipa> yes, it asks you whether you want to send it anyway
1589 2011-06-05 12:20:18 <sipa> this has nothing to do with either connection problems (which become very apparent in the network now)
1590 2011-06-05 12:20:29 <sipa> or whether you are connected to particular miners or not
1591 2011-06-05 12:20:43 <erle-> ok
1592 2011-06-05 12:21:07 <erle-> but its a stupid way of fighting spam, because spammers would just use another clients
1593 2011-06-05 12:21:17 <erle-> it only annoys honest users
1594 2011-06-05 12:21:24 <erle-> but we already have had that
1595 2011-06-05 12:21:50 <sipa> as i told you, it is a rule in the client because the network also has rules
1596 2011-06-05 12:21:53 <theymos> It was already explained to you that the network will enforce many of these fee rules, regardless of what client you use...
1597 2011-06-05 12:22:19 <sipa> and in the future, limits will be more flexible and the policy will be determined by the free market
1598 2011-06-05 12:22:29 tonik has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1599 2011-06-05 12:22:31 <sipa> depending on what miners and nodes in the network allow to pass through and get in a block
1600 2011-06-05 12:22:52 hello5 has joined
1601 2011-06-05 12:22:55 <sipa> for now however, we have a much simplet system, where a policy is encoded for relaying and creation of transactions
1602 2011-06-05 12:22:58 <hello5> hi guys
1603 2011-06-05 12:23:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: i won't be able to do a gitian build until tonight
1604 2011-06-05 12:23:55 <hello5> proceeded to the instructions, but somehow it does not work
1605 2011-06-05 12:23:56 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1606 2011-06-05 12:23:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: fair enough
1607 2011-06-05 12:24:02 <hello5> http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3036/minerv.jpg
1608 2011-06-05 12:24:18 <hello5> the opencl demo works too
1609 2011-06-05 12:24:18 AStove has joined
1610 2011-06-05 12:24:42 <sipa> hello5: that's strange, but i've no experience with mining in windows
1611 2011-06-05 12:24:47 <sipa> maybe ask in  #bitcoin-mining
1612 2011-06-05 12:25:14 <hello5> i ask but no reaktions
1613 2011-06-05 12:25:33 IncitatusOnWater has joined
1614 2011-06-05 12:25:43 <roconnor> heh, I have the same problem that TD had on March 1st
1615 2011-06-05 12:26:13 <hello5> TD?
1616 2011-06-05 12:27:10 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1617 2011-06-05 12:29:58 <roconnor> TD is the developer of bitcoinJ
1618 2011-06-05 12:30:18 <hello5> ok
1619 2011-06-05 12:31:22 <hello5> hm i install windows 7 32 bit, reboot, install updates (no ati drivers), reboot, install catalyst 11.5, reboot, install sdk 2.1, reboot, installbitcoin, make all blick updates, install gui miner.
1620 2011-06-05 12:31:50 <hello5> is that correct?
1621 2011-06-05 12:32:11 Stove has joined
1622 2011-06-05 12:32:16 Stove is now known as AStove_
1623 2011-06-05 12:32:17 <BlueMatt> really not the right chan, #bitcoin-mining
1624 2011-06-05 12:32:23 <hello5> ok
1625 2011-06-05 12:33:32 <jrmithdobbs> ok i feel like i'm chasing my tail here
1626 2011-06-05 12:33:53 <jrmithdobbs> is there something special about btc rpc's Authorization: Basic or something?
1627 2011-06-05 12:33:57 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1628 2011-06-05 12:34:35 AStove_ is now known as AStove
1629 2011-06-05 12:35:03 <jrmithdobbs> because the values it spits out are different from what NET::HTTPHeader::basic_auth() in ruby spits out for the same user/pass combo
1630 2011-06-05 12:35:15 <roconnor> ah, the sequence number thing is more complicated than I thought.
1631 2011-06-05 12:35:22 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1632 2011-06-05 12:35:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128774 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 249 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 6 hours, 26 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 548850.87737181
1633 2011-06-05 12:35:44 <jrmithdobbs> oh god, nm
1634 2011-06-05 12:37:18 <roconnor>         if ((int64)nLockTime < (nLockTime < 500000000 ? (int64)nBlockHeight : nBlockTime))
1635 2011-06-05 12:37:25 * roconnor tries to decode this if statement
1636 2011-06-05 12:37:26 <roconnor> :D
1637 2011-06-05 12:38:12 <sipa> roconnor: nLockTime is either a timestamp or a block number
1638 2011-06-05 12:38:37 <roconnor> heh, this part of the protocal isn't documented in the wiki
1639 2011-06-05 12:38:41 <roconnor> AFAIK
1640 2011-06-05 12:39:09 <sipa> i don't know where i would know it from :)
1641 2011-06-05 12:39:16 <sipa> but it wasn't the source
1642 2011-06-05 12:39:27 <roconnor> oh
1643 2011-06-05 12:39:39 CIA-103 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1644 2011-06-05 12:40:04 <roconnor> so after 500000000 blocks the block time mechanism stops working
1645 2011-06-05 12:40:07 Mapatti has joined
1646 2011-06-05 12:40:14 <Mapatti> Hiya
1647 2011-06-05 12:40:33 <roconnor> ah that is 9500 years
1648 2011-06-05 12:40:40 zyb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1649 2011-06-05 12:40:41 <roconnor> okay, maybe we won't be using bitcoin then
1650 2011-06-05 12:40:41 <sipa> reasonable enough
1651 2011-06-05 12:40:49 <DoubleBuLLets> its y2k all over again
1652 2011-06-05 12:40:50 <theymos> The timestamp will overflow before then.
1653 2011-06-05 12:40:56 <roconnor> theymos: good point
1654 2011-06-05 12:41:06 <roconnor> wait, isn't the timestamp 64 bit
1655 2011-06-05 12:41:11 <roconnor> hmm, maybe not
1656 2011-06-05 12:41:13 <sipa> no...
1657 2011-06-05 12:41:13 <theymos> Nope. Unsigned 32.
1658 2011-06-05 12:41:39 <roconnor> when does that overflow?
1659 2011-06-05 12:42:01 <theymos> 21xx
1660 2011-06-05 12:42:07 <roconnor> ah
1661 2011-06-05 12:42:17 <roconnor> and the signed version overlows in 20 something years?
1662 2011-06-05 12:42:22 <roconnor> *overflows
1663 2011-06-05 12:42:31 <theymos> 203x, I think.
1664 2011-06-05 12:42:34 <sipa> 19 jan 2038
1665 2011-06-05 12:42:43 <roconnor> thanks everyone
1666 2011-06-05 12:43:16 <sipa> there is a reasonable hack solution though
1667 2011-06-05 12:43:29 DoubleBuLLets has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
1668 2011-06-05 12:43:33 <sipa> you can assume that each block's timestamp is less than one year away from that of the previous block
1669 2011-06-05 12:43:40 vikarti has joined
1670 2011-06-05 12:43:54 zyb has joined
1671 2011-06-05 12:44:10 <ArtForz> yep, we only do relative calcs anyways, nothing that needs to span 2**31 seconds ;)
1672 2011-06-05 12:44:19 <Xenland> Can someo ne please tell me why when i run "git push -u origin master" that it responds with agent addimitted to failure to sign using the key
1673 2011-06-05 12:44:31 <Xenland> connecting to git@github.com
1674 2011-06-05 12:46:42 <theymos> A quote from Satoshi about timestamps that I find funny: "There should not be any signed int.  If you've found a signed int somewhere, please tell me (within the next 25 years please) and I'll change it to unsigned int."
1675 2011-06-05 12:46:44 CIA-92 has joined
1676 2011-06-05 12:46:53 <ArtForz> lol
1677 2011-06-05 12:47:32 <Xenland> lol 25 years
1678 2011-06-05 12:48:31 DukeOfURL has joined
1679 2011-06-05 12:49:05 <Doc_M> why 25 years?
1680 2011-06-05 12:49:06 temphuman has joined
1681 2011-06-05 12:49:08 <Doc_M> oh right
1682 2011-06-05 12:49:16 temphuman has left ()
1683 2011-06-05 12:49:53 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: will u/l after sleep finishes, in 4 hrs
1684 2011-06-05 12:50:35 <phantomcircuit> ;;seen MagicalTux
1685 2011-06-05 12:50:36 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> pong
1686 2011-06-05 12:50:47 <BlueMatt> Id say sleep has already finished if you are posting on irc
1687 2011-06-05 12:50:50 <MagicalTux> meh
1688 2011-06-05 12:51:03 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, HEY
1689 2011-06-05 12:51:15 lumos has joined
1690 2011-06-05 12:51:17 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: roughly how many txes/sec does mtgox handle on its bitcoind?
1691 2011-06-05 12:51:21 lumos is now known as sixyearolds
1692 2011-06-05 12:51:24 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, i tried to send btc on mtgox using the email send, the mail got bounced and there hasn't been a retry yet
1693 2011-06-05 12:51:42 <phantomcircuit> halp
1694 2011-06-05 12:51:44 <MagicalTux> mh
1695 2011-06-05 12:51:51 <MagicalTux> was bounced with 4xx or 5xx ?
1696 2011-06-05 12:51:59 <phantomcircuit> recipient not found
1697 2011-06-05 12:52:07 <phantomcircuit> there was a bug in my mail server
1698 2011-06-05 12:52:08 <phantomcircuit> :(
1699 2011-06-05 12:52:13 <MagicalTux> ah
1700 2011-06-05 12:52:15 d1234 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1701 2011-06-05 12:52:18 <MagicalTux> 5xx, there's no retry in that case
1702 2011-06-05 12:52:34 <phantomcircuit> so funds will stay locked until it times out
1703 2011-06-05 12:52:35 <phantomcircuit> or what
1704 2011-06-05 12:52:46 <Doc_M> I was curious about options,  they would really help people who sell and buy stuff in bitcoins.
1705 2011-06-05 12:52:59 d1234 has joined
1706 2011-06-05 12:53:05 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: mail admin@mtgox.com to ask for the token
1707 2011-06-05 12:53:14 <Doc_M> I guess it would be hard to enforce them though
1708 2011-06-05 12:53:22 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, alrighty
1709 2011-06-05 12:53:22 <MagicalTux> I'll check that monday morning
1710 2011-06-05 12:53:29 <Doc_M> futures might be easier
1711 2011-06-05 12:53:45 AStove has quit ()
1712 2011-06-05 12:55:04 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1713 2011-06-05 12:56:31 <sipa> jgarzik: you sleep in blocks of 4 hours?
1714 2011-06-05 12:56:41 Doc_M has left ()
1715 2011-06-05 12:56:57 Doc_M has joined
1716 2011-06-05 12:59:16 <Xenland> Can someone assist me with github. Im past the sign up and ira_key.pub part, i just need to know how to push my folders into github.com
1717 2011-06-05 13:00:43 backwardation25 has joined
1718 2011-06-05 13:00:47 marlowe has joined
1719 2011-06-05 13:00:52 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, also it seems like the max withdrawal for btc is broken
1720 2011-06-05 13:01:07 <MagicalTux> broken?
1721 2011-06-05 13:01:26 <phantomcircuit> yeah im not able to withdrawal any amount of btc even though i haven't done so in the last 24 hours
1722 2011-06-05 13:01:39 <phantomcircuit> ill try again right now
1723 2011-06-05 13:01:40 <MagicalTux> there's also a monthly limit of $10k
1724 2011-06-05 13:01:43 cash2coin777 has joined
1725 2011-06-05 13:01:49 <MagicalTux> (by default)
1726 2011-06-05 13:01:51 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, yeah im nowhere near that
1727 2011-06-05 13:01:52 <phantomcircuit> hehe
1728 2011-06-05 13:01:54 Fnar has joined
1729 2011-06-05 13:02:04 <phantomcircuit> wish i was
1730 2011-06-05 13:02:14 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1731 2011-06-05 13:02:22 <MagicalTux> also older withdraws in btc count with current btc value toward the limit
1732 2011-06-05 13:02:36 <MagicalTux> (will fix that)
1733 2011-06-05 13:03:01 <phantomcircuit> i've only done one withdrawal this month which is less than 10k usd even at current prices
1734 2011-06-05 13:03:52 <MagicalTux> sending funds also counts
1735 2011-06-05 13:04:02 <phantomcircuit> still not even close
1736 2011-06-05 13:04:03 <phantomcircuit> heh
1737 2011-06-05 13:04:26 <Doc_M> so at most I can buy 10k worth of BTC in a month?
1738 2011-06-05 13:04:34 <phantomcircuit> 90 BTC + 72 BTC within the last month
1739 2011-06-05 13:04:39 <Doc_M> is this due to Japanese and US laws?
1740 2011-06-05 13:04:47 <MagicalTux> Doc_M: this is due to AML regulations
1741 2011-06-05 13:05:09 <Doc_M> got yah
1742 2011-06-05 13:05:22 <diki> how do you guys propose i should store ipv6 addresses? They can be very tricky
1743 2011-06-05 13:05:22 <MagicalTux> will try to change this for BTC withdrawals once I implement the limitations on fiat deposits
1744 2011-06-05 13:05:26 <phantomcircuit> above that amount you need to send paper work to regulators right?
1745 2011-06-05 13:05:41 <Doc_M> So, we will need multiple exchangers if we wish to move large sums
1746 2011-06-05 13:05:42 <Doc_M> thanks
1747 2011-06-05 13:05:49 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: I do not need to send anything, however I have to certify I collected the required informations
1748 2011-06-05 13:05:54 <Dagger2> diki: call getnameinfo() and store the result as a string?
1749 2011-06-05 13:05:57 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, ah
1750 2011-06-05 13:06:13 <MagicalTux> the informations are only made available in case of criminal investigation
1751 2011-06-05 13:06:17 cenuij has joined
1752 2011-06-05 13:06:17 cenuij has quit (Changing host)
1753 2011-06-05 13:06:17 cenuij has joined
1754 2011-06-05 13:06:17 <diki> erm....in php
1755 2011-06-05 13:06:26 <MagicalTux> diki: net_pton
1756 2011-06-05 13:06:34 <Dagger2> diki: I think that's the only way you can do it sensibly, i.e. generically for any address family
1757 2011-06-05 13:06:35 <MagicalTux> diki: inet_pton()
1758 2011-06-05 13:07:46 sixyearolds has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1759 2011-06-05 13:07:55 <diki> so i basically feed inet_pton() whatever $_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDRESS'] is
1760 2011-06-05 13:08:00 <MagicalTux> yep
1761 2011-06-05 13:08:04 <MagicalTux> in returns binary data
1762 2011-06-05 13:08:14 <MagicalTux> either 4 bytes (ipv4) or 16 bytes (ipv6)
1763 2011-06-05 13:08:28 sixyearolds has joined
1764 2011-06-05 13:08:50 <diki> what if the ipv6 addr is compressed?
1765 2011-06-05 13:08:55 <MagicalTux> it works
1766 2011-06-05 13:09:01 <MagicalTux> returns 16 bytes
1767 2011-06-05 13:09:35 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, i assume you're running a custom bitcoind
1768 2011-06-05 13:09:57 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: only got a few patches to make it compile under gentoo, and have getblock
1769 2011-06-05 13:10:14 <phantomcircuit> ah
1770 2011-06-05 13:10:27 <phantomcircuit> you just connect to known good nodes?
1771 2011-06-05 13:10:38 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1772 2011-06-05 13:11:04 <MagicalTux> I have a network of nodes, and let some bitcoind connect outside
1773 2011-06-05 13:13:04 <diki> any other magic to be done before or after inet_pton()?
1774 2011-06-05 13:14:03 <MagicalTux> diki: depends if your storage method is binary safe
1775 2011-06-05 13:14:23 <diki> define binary safe
1776 2011-06-05 13:14:34 <diki> it's going to be stored in mysql
1777 2011-06-05 13:14:36 DoubleBuLLets has joined
1778 2011-06-05 13:15:20 <phantomcircuit> inet_pton is annoying, you have to know if it's ipv4 or ipv6 before you run it
1779 2011-06-05 13:15:26 Obeh has joined
1780 2011-06-05 13:15:41 <diki> how so?
1781 2011-06-05 13:16:15 <diki> well, i could check if it's ipv6 if it has :: but what is the point then?
1782 2011-06-05 13:16:24 <diki> inet_pton() should accept both
1783 2011-06-05 13:16:49 <diki> and i need an universal method
1784 2011-06-05 13:16:57 jrmithdobbs has joined
1785 2011-06-05 13:17:17 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1786 2011-06-05 13:17:33 <phantomcircuit> diki, you need to use getaddrinfo
1787 2011-06-05 13:17:45 <phantomcircuit> which will either do dns or properly format the ip addr
1788 2011-06-05 13:17:51 <phantomcircuit> it's like magic
1789 2011-06-05 13:17:51 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1790 2011-06-05 13:18:07 <diki> there is no such function in php
1791 2011-06-05 13:18:40 <Dagger2> he's doing it in PHP, which apparently uses inet_pton/inet_ntop instead of getaddrinfo and getnameinfo
1792 2011-06-05 13:18:45 da2ce7 has joined
1793 2011-06-05 13:20:17 <Dagger2> in which case I guess you should use inet_pton() to parse the address and then inet_ntop() to convert it to a canonical string and store that
1794 2011-06-05 13:20:29 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1795 2011-06-05 13:20:40 <Dagger2> you *can* store the 128-bit binary version, but then your code breaks when a new address family comes along
1796 2011-06-05 13:21:27 <jgarzik> Bitcoin version 0.3.22 released: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12269.0
1797 2011-06-05 13:21:33 <diki> update the site
1798 2011-06-05 13:21:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa, tcatm: ^^
1799 2011-06-05 13:22:06 <jgarzik> diki: ?
1800 2011-06-05 13:22:15 <diki> Dagger2:when you say binary version does that mean that i have to make my field BLOB?
1801 2011-06-05 13:24:43 <Dagger2> if that's what you need to do to store binary data, then yeah
1802 2011-06-05 13:24:47 <sipa> jgarzik: "DNS names may now be used with -addnode, -connect" -> not by default
1803 2011-06-05 13:25:16 jrmithdobbs has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1804 2011-06-05 13:27:45 <jgarzik> sipa: updated
1805 2011-06-05 13:28:36 <sipa> 'make take account balances negative' -> make?
1806 2011-06-05 13:28:50 sixyearolds is now known as noptera
1807 2011-06-05 13:29:13 gsathya has joined
1808 2011-06-05 13:29:49 DoubleBuLLets has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
1809 2011-06-05 13:30:31 <Doc_M> Hey guys, btw it would be a good idea if the wallet was encrypted on the HD, so if someone gets  spyware it doesn't steal their entire bank account
1810 2011-06-05 13:30:38 <sipa> Doc_M: planned for 0.4.0
1811 2011-06-05 13:30:42 <Doc_M> awesome
1812 2011-06-05 13:30:49 <Doc_M> thanks sipa, you guys rock :-)
1813 2011-06-05 13:30:56 <sipa> jgarzik: also, we forgot to turn off the VERSION_IS_BETA, so we just released 0.3.22-beta :)
1814 2011-06-05 13:31:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: all versions are beta
1815 2011-06-05 13:31:14 <BlueMatt> (until we hit 1.0)
1816 2011-06-05 13:31:16 <jgarzik> sipa: that's been true for all versions
1817 2011-06-05 13:31:21 <sipa> oh, damn
1818 2011-06-05 13:31:22 <B0g4r7> Changed how?
1819 2011-06-05 13:31:28 <B0g4r7> wrong window
1820 2011-06-05 13:31:43 <sipa> i always interpreted that as "dev version, not yet released"
1821 2011-06-05 13:32:31 DontMindMe has joined
1822 2011-06-05 13:33:56 <phantomcircuit> ok so satoshi got one thing right
1823 2011-06-05 13:34:08 <phantomcircuit> inv massively decreases bandwidth usage
1824 2011-06-05 13:34:37 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: you mean the thing copied from NNTP?  :)
1825 2011-06-05 13:34:47 <phantomcircuit> yes
1826 2011-06-05 13:34:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
1827 2011-06-05 13:35:03 <Doc_M> "inv massively decreases bandwidth usage"  what do you mean?
1828 2011-06-05 13:35:10 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: can you check the sha256 on the tar you got and reextract the win32-setup.exe, it appears to have a different hash on the orig one
1829 2011-06-05 13:35:20 ar4s has joined
1830 2011-06-05 13:35:30 <BlueMatt> (but after install, bitcoin.exe has the right hash)
1831 2011-06-05 13:35:41 <phantomcircuit> Doc_M, network protocol stuffs
1832 2011-06-05 13:36:29 <diki> inv??
1833 2011-06-05 13:37:01 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa, tcatm: take a look at updated release announcement, I added a "recommendations for connecting to network" section
1834 2011-06-05 13:37:45 <B0g4r7> No OS X binary?
1835 2011-06-05 13:37:55 d1234 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1836 2011-06-05 13:38:02 <BlueMatt> B0g4r7: never is at the same time
1837 2011-06-05 13:38:08 <BlueMatt> just wait a couple days-week
1838 2011-06-05 13:38:50 d1234 has joined
1839 2011-06-05 13:39:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: hash sums look same after re-extract: http://pastebin.com/eywwi71t
1840 2011-06-05 13:39:11 * roconnor starts getting a vauge idea how locktimes might work, but not how sequence numbers would be used.
1841 2011-06-05 13:39:28 Phoebus has joined
1842 2011-06-05 13:39:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: on release thread you have "67f66a403f176b70e92314c9e0b4108dc6758eb9  bitcoin-0.3.22-win32-setup.exe"
1843 2011-06-05 13:39:51 <BlueMatt> its 6b
1844 2011-06-05 13:39:53 Sugarnube has joined
1845 2011-06-05 13:40:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: note the length of the hash
1846 2011-06-05 13:40:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: that's a sha1sum
1847 2011-06-05 13:40:15 <BlueMatt> ah...sorry
1848 2011-06-05 13:40:17 <BlueMatt> my bad
1849 2011-06-05 13:40:23 * BlueMatt is blind
1850 2011-06-05 13:41:13 <MasterChief> good morning
1851 2011-06-05 13:41:33 <sipa> roconnor: sequence numbers are increased each time you send an updated version of a transaction
1852 2011-06-05 13:41:41 <sipa> which is not supported anyway
1853 2011-06-05 13:43:13 vikarti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1854 2011-06-05 13:43:29 ivan__ has joined
1855 2011-06-05 13:43:53 vikarti has joined
1856 2011-06-05 13:44:23 <roconnor> moreover AFAIK sequence numbers are almost entirely unused in the protocol
1857 2011-06-05 13:44:36 <roconnor> the only difference is whether the sequence number is UINT_MAX or not
1858 2011-06-05 13:44:46 <ivan__> hi, i was thinking about one thing... as the dat file with the private key is the weak part of the system as also the dumbest malware could retrieve it and send it by email to its creator.... wouldn't be better to set some password protection to the file by default in order to access the account ?
1859 2011-06-05 13:45:01 <sipa> ivan__: planned for 0.4.0
1860 2011-06-05 13:45:08 <ivan__> sipa: cool :)
1861 2011-06-05 13:45:09 zamgo has joined
1862 2011-06-05 13:45:13 <ivan__> sipa: what else ?
1863 2011-06-05 13:45:17 <roconnor> sipa: if two transactions have two different sequence numbers, then either one of them might end up being embedded in the chain
1864 2011-06-05 13:45:25 <sipa> roconnor: of course?
1865 2011-06-05 13:45:49 <roconnor> so I don't quiet see who or how someone would use sequence numbers to do anything
1866 2011-06-05 13:45:54 <roconnor> *quite
1867 2011-06-05 13:45:55 <sipa> roconnor: sequence numbers are for updating transactions as long as they are not in the chain
1868 2011-06-05 13:46:17 <roconnor> yes, but even if you update a transaction, your previous transaction may still end up in the chain
1869 2011-06-05 13:46:24 <sipa> yes
1870 2011-06-05 13:46:39 <vegard> that's what you wanted to begin with, right?
1871 2011-06-05 13:46:52 <sipa> personally, i thought this was intended to update the fee in a tx, leaving the outputs identical
1872 2011-06-05 13:47:06 <sipa> however, i was mistaken, as the rule seems to be that the inputs must remain identical
1873 2011-06-05 13:47:07 <roconnor> sipa: to update a fee you have to change one of the outputs
1874 2011-06-05 13:47:14 <sipa> roconnor: no
1875 2011-06-05 13:47:23 <sipa> only the inputs need to change
1876 2011-06-05 13:47:30 <roconnor> the fee is the difference between outputs and inputs
1877 2011-06-05 13:47:34 <sipa> yes
1878 2011-06-05 13:47:37 <roconnor> the inputs are of fixed value
1879 2011-06-05 13:47:45 <sipa> my point exactly
1880 2011-06-05 13:47:50 <roconnor> unless you change which coins are used for inputs
1881 2011-06-05 13:47:55 <sipa> *sigh*
1882 2011-06-05 13:48:09 <roconnor> I'm not trying to be obtuse her
1883 2011-06-05 13:48:11 <roconnor> *her
1884 2011-06-05 13:48:13 <roconnor> *here
1885 2011-06-05 13:48:15 <sipa> sorry, i'm a bit tired
1886 2011-06-05 13:48:22 <sipa> it's exactly what i'm saying
1887 2011-06-05 13:48:41 <roconnor> say you want to change your fee by adding 0.01 BTC
1888 2011-06-05 13:49:02 <roconnor> what are the odds you are going to find an input coin that is exactly 0.01BTC higher than an existing coin you were using?
1889 2011-06-05 13:49:05 <roconnor> not very likely
1890 2011-06-05 13:49:07 <hello5> ;;getrating eamon
1891 2011-06-05 13:49:07 <gribble> User eamon, with hostmask None, was created on Sat May 14 22:50:16 2011, and has a cumulative rating of 2, from a total of 2 ratings. Of these, 2 are positive and 0 are negative. This user has also sent 2 positive ratings, and 0 negative ratings to others.
1892 2011-06-05 13:49:09 molecular has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1893 2011-06-05 13:49:25 <roconnor> so what you would do to increase the fee is lower the output coin by 0.01 BTC; the one coin you are sending back to yourself.
1894 2011-06-05 13:49:29 <sipa> roconnor: you can just create a depending tx to do that
1895 2011-06-05 13:49:42 molecular has joined
1896 2011-06-05 13:49:43 <sipa> but that's indeed already harder, and i admit i didn't think about that
1897 2011-06-05 13:49:46 hello5 has left ("Verlassend")
1898 2011-06-05 13:50:06 <roconnor> hence, the outputs will typically change to change the fee.
1899 2011-06-05 13:50:14 <roconnor> at least that is my reckoning
1900 2011-06-05 13:50:17 <sipa> anyway, i'm wrong anyway, because that is apparently not what sequence numbers are for
1901 2011-06-05 13:50:29 <roconnor> ah
1902 2011-06-05 13:50:50 <roconnor> I wonder what they are for
1903 2011-06-05 13:50:59 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, with proper documentation and stuff what is the highest deposit/withdraw amount you feel comfortable with on mtgox
1904 2011-06-05 13:51:02 <sipa> roconnor: distributed contracts, i believe
1905 2011-06-05 13:51:18 <sipa> TD wrote a post about it on the forum, but i didn't manage to read it completely yet
1906 2011-06-05 13:51:21 <roconnor> hmm
1907 2011-06-05 13:51:55 <sipa> anyway, that'd be a change i would do to the protocol: some flag that determines which inputs/outputs of a tx are allowed to be changed by an update
1908 2011-06-05 13:52:25 <sipa> eg. to receive a payment you only care that the output addressed to you remains identical
1909 2011-06-05 13:52:54 <sipa> so the client could mark that output as fixed, and the others as flexible
1910 2011-06-05 13:53:19 <sipa> ... which has privacy consequences, because it becomes obvious which is the payment and which is the change
1911 2011-06-05 13:53:28 <roconnor> yes
1912 2011-06-05 13:53:42 <roconnor> it's interesting that it isn't easy to tell the difference at the moment :D
1913 2011-06-05 13:54:19 ivan__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1914 2011-06-05 13:54:44 Carriun has joined
1915 2011-06-05 13:56:15 <sipa> roconnor: it's definitely intended that you can't see the difference
1916 2011-06-05 13:59:09 KingMartin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1917 2011-06-05 13:59:14 <roconnor> really?  I figured it was an accidental benefit
1918 2011-06-05 14:00:38 luke-jr has joined
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1924 2011-06-05 14:06:14 <MagicalTux> [22:43:13] <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, with proper documentation and stuff what is the highest deposit/withdraw amount you feel comfortable with on mtgox <- 1~2 million usd
1925 2011-06-05 14:06:32 darkmethod has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1926 2011-06-05 14:06:33 <MagicalTux> if you need more I'd feel better if you could come and drink a beer
1927 2011-06-05 14:08:29 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, possibility in the future
1928 2011-06-05 14:09:27 <vegard> phantomcircuit: drop me a note before you carry it out, will you? ;)
1929 2011-06-05 14:09:29 <Cusipzzz> MagicalTux: do you plan to issue 1099s or other tax docs? that's the only reason I'm hesitant to do kyc...I could send ID, but the money may be going to a business dwolla or account, not personal
1930 2011-06-05 14:10:47 <phantomcircuit> Cusipzzz, he isn't in the US so he has no obligation to do so, but you do
1931 2011-06-05 14:10:47 <BlueMatt> arg, I want to merge man page into bitcoin, but the debian one is gpl
1932 2011-06-05 14:10:54 <Cusipzzz> MagicalTux: and i do think that those of us with accounts from 2010 should be grandfathered in to higher limits.. :)
1933 2011-06-05 14:11:09 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,gen 740000
1934 2011-06-05 14:11:10 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 740000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 1.71152580778 BTC per day and 0.0713135753242 BTC per hour.
1935 2011-06-05 14:11:44 <Cusipzzz> phantomcircuit: well of course, my accountant will be dealing with it, but if Gox wants W9 forms, etc, the personal vs business tax IDs become an issue
1936 2011-06-05 14:12:14 <Doc_M> why would gox want w9's?
1937 2011-06-05 14:12:17 <Doc_M> they are in japan
1938 2011-06-05 14:12:32 <Cusipzzz> as a way to keep the US Treasury dept of his back ?
1939 2011-06-05 14:12:37 <Cusipzzz> off*
1940 2011-06-05 14:12:42 <MagicalTux> Cusipzzz: I do not even know what 1099s is
1941 2011-06-05 14:13:10 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, tax forms, you would need to do 1099-B, which is for barter exchanges
1942 2011-06-05 14:13:19 <phantomcircuit> except you're not in the US so you dont need to do anything
1943 2011-06-05 14:13:56 <Cusipzzz> MagicalTux: lol
1944 2011-06-05 14:14:48 <Cusipzzz> phantomcircuit: but he has a subsidiary in the US doing money transfers (dwolla). may not be as cut and dry.
1945 2011-06-05 14:15:44 <Doc_M> dwolla has no connection to him
1946 2011-06-05 14:15:49 <Doc_M> its just a money transfer service
1947 2011-06-05 14:16:04 payload has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1948 2011-06-05 14:16:06 <Cusipzzz> i meant via dwolla, not dwolla itself.
1949 2011-06-05 14:16:12 <Doc_M> the us is one of the most heavily regulated countries in the world when it comes to finance
1950 2011-06-05 14:16:14 <Doc_M> its stupid
1951 2011-06-05 14:16:37 jrmithdobbs has joined
1952 2011-06-05 14:17:06 <Cusipzzz> Doc_M: agreed.Fincen, Kyc, sanctions law, ofac list, tax law..it's insane. and vague enough that they can go after anyone with it.
1953 2011-06-05 14:18:21 simkiss has joined
1954 2011-06-05 14:19:14 <Doc_M> yep
1955 2011-06-05 14:19:45 <Doc_M> been that way since the 1930's
1956 2011-06-05 14:20:33 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1957 2011-06-05 14:20:57 <jgarzik> sipa: for 0.3.23 we'll just reverse your TX fee changes, yes?
1958 2011-06-05 14:21:08 <jgarzik> sipa: that gets us back to 0.0005 for both relay and send
1959 2011-06-05 14:21:31 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I thought the criteria for that was "depends on how long 0.3.23 takes and how much of net has upgraded"
1960 2011-06-05 14:21:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: Gavin seemed to want to go ahead with it
1961 2011-06-05 14:22:10 <sipa> jgarzik: that's possible, or you could just change the macro for MIN_TX_FEE to 50000 as well
1962 2011-06-05 14:23:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok, well as long as a majority of net upgrades (Id bet it will pretty quick) then yea
1963 2011-06-05 14:23:49 <sipa> i hope so, 0.3.22 does not have that many incentives to switch though
1964 2011-06-05 14:24:14 somecoiner has quit ()
1965 2011-06-05 14:24:39 <sipa> i'm upgrading bitcoin.sipa.be
1966 2011-06-05 14:30:02 <BlueMatt> wow we still have a huge chunk of nodes running 0.3.19
1967 2011-06-05 14:30:02 fimp has joined
1968 2011-06-05 14:31:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep
1969 2011-06-05 14:31:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: a lot of 0.3.19 people refuse to upgrade due to IsStandard()
1970 2011-06-05 14:31:34 Ramokk has quit ()
1971 2011-06-05 14:31:45 <BlueMatt> I thought that was in 0.3.19, but whatever
1972 2011-06-05 14:31:46 <phantomcircuit> heh
1973 2011-06-05 14:31:57 <BlueMatt> that and a ton of people refuse to upgrade due to forced fees in 0.3.20
1974 2011-06-05 14:32:26 <phantomcircuit> fees really should only be applied with a manual confirmation and the chance to edit them down
1975 2011-06-05 14:32:44 <phantomcircuit> and i really disagree with preventing relay of tx which dont have enough fees
1976 2011-06-05 14:33:05 <BlueMatt> everyone does...but there is no solution to spam so...
1977 2011-06-05 14:33:43 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1978 2011-06-05 14:33:55 <sipa> i'm not sure it's the only solution
1979 2011-06-05 14:34:44 <BlueMatt> neither am I, but so far none of the potential solutions have been implemented and tested
1980 2011-06-05 14:35:06 <sipa> the problem is that testing a policy is very difficult
1981 2011-06-05 14:35:17 <sipa> as it depends on how people will use it
1982 2011-06-05 14:35:18 <BlueMatt> yep
1983 2011-06-05 14:35:56 wistiu has joined
1984 2011-06-05 14:36:05 <BlueMatt> ok, currently 102 incoming-accepting known-nodes running 0.3.22 (-rc)
1985 2011-06-05 14:37:21 noptera has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1986 2011-06-05 14:37:55 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Doug Huff master * r482cb65 / (src/net.cpp src/net.h): Fix rfc1918 and rfc3927 compliance for ignoring non-internet-routable hosts. - http://bit.ly/koZlQ8
1987 2011-06-05 14:37:57 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r39105da / (src/net.cpp src/net.h):
1988 2011-06-05 14:37:57 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Merge pull request #290 from jrmithdobbs/ip-filter-rfc1918-rfc3927
1989 2011-06-05 14:37:57 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Fix rfc1918 and rfc3927 compliance for ignoring non-internet-routable hosts - http://bit.ly/kLoFgT
1990 2011-06-05 14:38:02 erle- has joined
1991 2011-06-05 14:38:39 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r7a234cd / (src/init.cpp src/main.cpp src/main.h):
1992 2011-06-05 14:38:39 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Merge pull request #255 from sipa/rescanupdate
1993 2011-06-05 14:38:39 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Update transactions already in the wallet when rescanning. - http://bit.ly/l17EtV
1994 2011-06-05 14:38:46 <BlueMatt> want to update version numbers to .23 now?
1995 2011-06-05 14:39:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * re3d8844 / .gitignore :
1996 2011-06-05 14:39:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Merge pull request #291 from jrmithdobbs/ignore-vim-swp-files
1997 2011-06-05 14:39:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Add common temp files to .gitignore. - http://bit.ly/kHe4LU
1998 2011-06-05 14:40:25 AStove has joined
1999 2011-06-05 14:40:49 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r09d1484 / src/main.cpp :
2000 2011-06-05 14:40:49 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Merge pull request #264 from sipa/mintxfeefix
2001 2011-06-05 14:40:49 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Fix for small change outputs - http://bit.ly/iLXFlz
2002 2011-06-05 14:40:52 zamgo has left ()
2003 2011-06-05 14:41:48 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
2004 2011-06-05 14:44:04 lumos has joined
2005 2011-06-05 14:44:12 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2006 2011-06-05 14:44:44 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: thoughts on this? from your showwallet tree
2007 2011-06-05 14:44:55 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: error: {"code":-1,"message":"CKEy::GetPrivKeyInner(): BN_bn2bin failed"}
2008 2011-06-05 14:45:02 JRWR has joined
2009 2011-06-05 14:45:02 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
2010 2011-06-05 14:45:02 JRWR has joined
2011 2011-06-05 14:45:35 <sipa> that shouldn't happen
2012 2011-06-05 14:45:41 <sipa> but i believe i've seen that error anyway
2013 2011-06-05 14:45:42 <jrmithdobbs> define shouldn't
2014 2011-06-05 14:45:57 <jrmithdobbs> because it is (obviously ... not on a wallet i care about though)
2015 2011-06-05 14:46:13 Carriun has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016 2011-06-05 14:46:22 <jrmithdobbs> i haven't looked at the code yet, i'm playing with something else wallet related and was using your patch to test with, haha
2017 2011-06-05 14:46:36 <jrmithdobbs> seemed to happen after first flush of keypool to wallet
2018 2011-06-05 14:46:43 <jrmithdobbs> (brand new wallet)
2019 2011-06-05 14:47:16 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6f07e22 / (4 files in 3 dirs): Bump version to 0.3.23. - http://bit.ly/jJLJ3j
2020 2011-06-05 14:47:28 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021 2011-06-05 14:47:46 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ok, i see the problem, i believe i already fixed it
2022 2011-06-05 14:47:55 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
2023 2011-06-05 14:47:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128793 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 230 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 2 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 548742.95130763
2024 2011-06-05 14:48:14 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: will happen for 1/256 of keys
2025 2011-06-05 14:48:20 <sipa> i'll fix it later todat
2026 2011-06-05 14:50:53 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2027 2011-06-05 14:54:50 Mapatti has quit ()
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2030 2011-06-05 14:59:22 karnac has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2031 2011-06-05 14:59:26 RazielZ has joined
2032 2011-06-05 15:00:43 <jrmithdobbs> also, y'all want me to submit my tiny patch that adds -noseednodes to disable falling back to the seednodes under any circumstances? (I didn't want to have a seperate copy of the blockchain for these tests and didn't want to wipe and redownload on every start and have the download messing with latency on other things)
2033 2011-06-05 15:00:50 sethsethseth___ has joined
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2035 2011-06-05 15:03:50 sethsethseth____ has joined
2036 2011-06-05 15:04:43 <jgarzik> [RFC] Separating leaf nodes and supernodes - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12286.0
2037 2011-06-05 15:05:04 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2038 2011-06-05 15:05:55 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
2039 2011-06-05 15:07:05 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2040 2011-06-05 15:08:54 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, if we get into super/leaf nodes it would be worth it to start looking at something like gnunet
2041 2011-06-05 15:09:08 somecoiner has joined
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2043 2011-06-05 15:09:19 <phantomcircuit> which is specifically designed for avoiding filtering on p2p networks
2044 2011-06-05 15:10:04 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: seems unlikely to happen due to scope of changes that would be required for gnunet
2045 2011-06-05 15:10:13 lumos has joined
2046 2011-06-05 15:10:22 lumos has quit (Client Quit)
2047 2011-06-05 15:10:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yes the scope of changes in the current code for gnunet would be enormous
2048 2011-06-05 15:10:33 <sipa> phantomcircuit: do you want to make a pull request for your nonblock-connect patch?
2049 2011-06-05 15:11:18 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #41: FAILURE in 6 min 2 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/41/
2050 2011-06-05 15:11:19 <BlueMattBot> * pieter.wuille: Fix for small change outputs
2051 2011-06-05 15:11:19 <BlueMattBot> * mith: Add common temp files to .gitignore.
2052 2011-06-05 15:11:19 <BlueMattBot> * jgarzik: Bump version to 0.3.23.
2053 2011-06-05 15:11:32 <sipa> oh my
2054 2011-06-05 15:11:41 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
2055 2011-06-05 15:11:44 Kiba has joined
2056 2011-06-05 15:12:22 <jgarzik> WFM
2057 2011-06-05 15:12:39 cornfeed has quit ()
2058 2011-06-05 15:12:44 ghtdak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2059 2011-06-05 15:12:56 <sipa> cp: cannot create regular file `/home/matt/build-out/bitcoind': Text file busy
2060 2011-06-05 15:12:59 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
2061 2011-06-05 15:13:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128797 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 226 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 3 hours, 29 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 548991.18991589
2062 2011-06-05 15:13:02 <sipa> ok, if that's the problem :D
2063 2011-06-05 15:13:03 ghtdak has joined
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2068 2011-06-05 15:19:12 Doc_M has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2069 2011-06-05 15:19:21 SAC has left ()
2070 2011-06-05 15:19:46 <somecoiner> rev! rev! rev!
2071 2011-06-05 15:20:01 zooko has joined
2072 2011-06-05 15:23:36 <roconnor> how is the difficulty of a chain defined?
2073 2011-06-05 15:23:38 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2074 2011-06-05 15:23:40 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2075 2011-06-05 15:23:46 <roconnor> for determining the longer chain
2076 2011-06-05 15:24:02 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2077 2011-06-05 15:24:06 <roconnor> the sum of the targets of each block in the chain?
2078 2011-06-05 15:24:49 Obeh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2079 2011-06-05 15:25:05 <sipa> the sum of (2^256-1)/target for each blocj
2080 2011-06-05 15:25:09 <sipa> block
2081 2011-06-05 15:26:04 <roconnor> as a floating point number?
2082 2011-06-05 15:30:09 <Matson> to answer my own question from yesterday, I'm listening to a security review , 41m50s into viedo here http://twit.tv/sn287
2083 2011-06-05 15:32:07 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, no as a 256bit uint
2084 2011-06-05 15:32:14 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, little endian
2085 2011-06-05 15:32:15 <sipa> roconnor: no, bigint
2086 2011-06-05 15:32:24 <phantomcircuit> it's le?
2087 2011-06-05 15:32:30 <phantomcircuit> i was sure it was be
2088 2011-06-05 15:32:32 <phantomcircuit> er
2089 2011-06-05 15:32:37 <phantomcircuit> you know what i meant
2090 2011-06-05 15:32:41 <roconnor> (2^256-1)/target is not an integer
2091 2011-06-05 15:33:14 dosmarder has joined
2092 2011-06-05 15:33:19 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, is it?
2093 2011-06-05 15:33:20 <phantomcircuit> ;)
2094 2011-06-05 15:33:42 <roconnor> not unless target divides (2^256-1)
2095 2011-06-05 15:37:31 <phantomcircuit> so i modified my client to do 125 connections
2096 2011-06-05 15:37:41 <phantomcircuit> only uses like 8 KB/s on average
2097 2011-06-05 15:37:58 lumos has joined
2098 2011-06-05 15:38:59 <roconnor> so bitcoin uses floating point numbers?
2099 2011-06-05 15:39:51 <roconnor> so people will calculate difficulties of chains differently if they add them up in different orders?
2100 2011-06-05 15:39:59 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, bnChainWork
2101 2011-06-05 15:40:41 <phantomcircuit> pindex->bnChainWork = (pindex->pprev ? pindex->pprev->bnChainWork : 0) + pindex->GetBlockWork();
2102 2011-06-05 15:41:33 <phantomcircuit> (CBigNum(1)<<256) / (bnTarget+1)
2103 2011-06-05 15:41:36 wistiu has joined
2104 2011-06-05 15:41:39 <roconnor> rounded division?
2105 2011-06-05 15:41:54 <phantomcircuit> bignum division which iirc never rounds
2106 2011-06-05 15:42:09 <roconnor> that doesn't make sense
2107 2011-06-05 15:42:33 <roconnor> if the result is a bignum it must be rounding in some way
2108 2011-06-05 15:42:46 <phantomcircuit> uh
2109 2011-06-05 15:42:54 <phantomcircuit> lets see
2110 2011-06-05 15:43:41 <phantomcircuit> BIGNUM
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2113 2011-06-05 15:45:52 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2120 2011-06-05 15:48:16 <roconnor> it calls BN_div
2121 2011-06-05 15:49:29 praetoriansentry has joined
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2128 2011-06-05 15:54:59 <roconnor> ah, BN_div returns the quotient and remainder, and here only the quotient is returned.
2129 2011-06-05 15:55:28 <roconnor> so that would either rounding down or rounding to zero
2130 2011-06-05 15:55:41 <roconnor> given both numbers are positive, it doesn't matter which
2131 2011-06-05 15:56:58 edgarallanpoe has joined
2132 2011-06-05 15:57:10 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2133 2011-06-05 15:59:17 p0s has joined
2134 2011-06-05 16:00:18 <roconnor> this measure of work doesn't seem correct.
2135 2011-06-05 16:02:15 DukeOfURL has joined
2136 2011-06-05 16:02:19 <edgarallanpoe> i just started subscribing to mtgox's websocket -- can someone help me make sense of the messages?
2137 2011-06-05 16:02:45 <edgarallanpoe> for example, for trades, i saw this message
2138 2011-06-05 16:02:47 <edgarallanpoe> {'date': 1307289200, 'tid': '114912', 'amount': 0.010140845070423, 'type': 'trade', 'price': 17.748899999999999}
2139 2011-06-05 16:03:08 <edgarallanpoe> but 0.010140845 ... seems like a really implausible volume to have traded on mtgox.
2140 2011-06-05 16:05:15 mcculley has quit (Quit: mcculley)
2141 2011-06-05 16:05:58  has joined
2142 2011-06-05 16:08:16 Cablesaurus has joined
2143 2011-06-05 16:08:16 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
2144 2011-06-05 16:08:16 Cablesaurus has joined
2145 2011-06-05 16:08:31 <wistiu> edgarallanpoe, it probably had to fill the last part of an order using another seller
2146 2011-06-05 16:08:32 _Netsni3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2147 2011-06-05 16:09:48 <edgarallanpoe> wistiu: ok. seems a bit weird -- just looked at the messages around it and there weren't any that were near it in time.
2148 2011-06-05 16:10:00 <edgarallanpoe> the next one was 29 seconds later, and also a weird sized lot
2149 2011-06-05 16:10:25 <edgarallanpoe> but i guess fundamentally my question is: should i trust the volume numbers?
2150 2011-06-05 16:10:31 <edgarallanpoe> i'll keep monitoring it
2151 2011-06-05 16:10:33  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-240-195-37.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
2152 2011-06-05 16:15:43 <roconnor> I would have expected the difficulty to be work of a block to proportional to the expected number of hashes to produce the block, but the work measured is a lot higher than the work performed according to my reckoning.
2153 2011-06-05 16:17:37 <jrmithdobbs> so it doesn't look like getnewaddress pulls out of the address pool
2154 2011-06-05 16:17:58 <jrmithdobbs> err memory pool i mean
2155 2011-06-05 16:18:01 <jrmithdobbs> is that correct?
2156 2011-06-05 16:19:03 Sebastan has joined
2157 2011-06-05 16:20:42 <Sebastan> ;bph 1600
2158 2011-06-05 16:20:57 <Sebastan> someone knows the real command to calculate?
2159 2011-06-05 16:23:16 fckStick has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2160 2011-06-05 16:25:36 ne555 has joined
2161 2011-06-05 16:26:24 <ne555> I launch ./bitcoin -paytxfee=0, but when i do: bitcoin sendfrom "" <address> 0.01, the transcation is sent with 0.01 fee, how can I TOTALLY disable fees  ? Should i change main.h   32 static const int64 MIN_TX_FEE = CENT;
2162 2011-06-05 16:29:33 sytse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2163 2011-06-05 16:31:08 <phantomcircuit> ne555, you cant
2164 2011-06-05 16:31:11 <phantomcircuit> isn't that loverly
2165 2011-06-05 16:31:26 <phantomcircuit> oh you mean building your own binary?
2166 2011-06-05 16:31:32 <phantomcircuit> not sure
2167 2011-06-05 16:31:48 <ne555> phantomcircuit: why i'm free to broadcast what i want no ?
2168 2011-06-05 16:32:20 <ne555> phantomcircuit: yes i'm building my binary, 0.01 is HUGE
2169 2011-06-05 16:33:01 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2170 2011-06-05 16:33:37 darbsllim has joined
2171 2011-06-05 16:33:40 <ne555> phantomcircuit: my question is will miners confirm those transaction i plan to broadcast ?
2172 2011-06-05 16:33:45 <phantomcircuit> ne555, i haven't looked at it enough
2173 2011-06-05 16:33:54 <phantomcircuit> but jgarzik or BlueMatt might be able to help you with that
2174 2011-06-05 16:34:08 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2175 2011-06-05 16:34:08 <phantomcircuit> ne555, eventually one of them probably will
2176 2011-06-05 16:34:21 <phantomcircuit> it might take longer though
2177 2011-06-05 16:34:38 <ne555> phantomcircuit: seem to be at main.cpp:734 i not sure because of that
2178 2011-06-05 16:34:45 <BlueMatt> and it may not be confirmed at all if it is not relayed
2179 2011-06-05 16:34:56 Phoebus has joined
2180 2011-06-05 16:35:04 Sebastan has left ()
2181 2011-06-05 16:35:09 <BlueMatt> luke's pool accepts some lower fee stuff, so if you -addnode=luke's pool you might be able to get it to work
2182 2011-06-05 16:35:12 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, that's easy enough to deal with
2183 2011-06-05 16:35:37 <BlueMatt> additionally, I suggest you dont change the MIN_FEE const, but instead use my branch which redoes the fee stuff, allowing you to specify what you want
2184 2011-06-05 16:35:53 <ne555> BlueMatt: where is it ? github ?
2185 2011-06-05 16:35:58 <cosurgi> tcatm: can you cut off the junk on "market depth" plot in http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/bitomatPLN.html ?
2186 2011-06-05 16:36:08 <BlueMatt> ne555: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/289
2187 2011-06-05 16:36:37 <cosurgi> tcatm: some stupid guy is selling 0.01 BTC @ 1000000000 and it spoils whole plot.
2188 2011-06-05 16:36:48 edgarallanpoe has joined
2189 2011-06-05 16:36:53 <Graet> lol
2190 2011-06-05 16:37:04 <phantomcircuit> cosurgi, just dont display anything +-50% of spot
2191 2011-06-05 16:37:29 <cosurgi> phantomcircuit: I can change that?
2192 2011-06-05 16:37:32 <cosurgi> how?
2193 2011-06-05 16:38:06 <phantomcircuit> im guessing that you cant
2194 2011-06-05 16:38:22 <cosurgi> so that's why I'm asking tcatm to change this :)
2195 2011-06-05 16:39:31 <ne555> BlueMatt: both -overridesanetxfee and -paybasetxfee=0 -payperkbtxfee=0 ? But my transcation wont probably get relayed right  ?
2196 2011-06-05 16:39:44 <BlueMatt> not if you -overridesanetxfee
2197 2011-06-05 16:39:46 <BlueMatt> hence the name
2198 2011-06-05 16:40:21 <BlueMatt> but if you, say, addnode of a pool or miner who accepts txes of the wrong fee, you might be able to pull it off
2199 2011-06-05 16:41:38 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2200 2011-06-05 16:42:04 <ne555> I still dont understand the relationship between the flaf -overridesanetxfee  and -paybasetxfee= -payperkbtxfee= ? If i set my own value what's the use of -overridesanetxfee ?
2201 2011-06-05 16:42:31 <ne555> -paybasetxfee= and -payperkbtxfee implies that i want to overrie no ?
2202 2011-06-05 16:42:37 <ne555> override
2203 2011-06-05 16:43:02 <BlueMatt> read the dialog: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10923.msg160989#msg160989
2204 2011-06-05 16:43:20 sytse has joined
2205 2011-06-05 16:45:05 bill_h has joined
2206 2011-06-05 16:46:22 <bill_h> Can anyone poke some holes in this recipe for bitcoin anonymity? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=g4xsHaXa
2207 2011-06-05 16:46:29 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2208 2011-06-05 16:46:29 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #42: FIXED in 16 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/42/
2209 2011-06-05 16:47:45 <ne555> BlueMatt: OK i understand when using the gui. But using jsonrpc if -overridesanetxfee==false will it automatically increase the fee (like it does now) ?
2210 2011-06-05 16:47:50 mrenouf has joined
2211 2011-06-05 16:48:09 <BlueMatt> not if you use setautocommit false
2212 2011-06-05 16:49:03 <BlueMatt> (again read linked post)
2213 2011-06-05 16:49:04 <ne555> BlueMatt: Mmhh cool
2214 2011-06-05 16:49:10 <ne555> BlueMatt: i get it
2215 2011-06-05 16:50:25  has joined
2216 2011-06-05 16:53:26 <ne555> BlueMatt: But you didnt changed the critera of main.ccp:736 if (fCheckFee && nFees < GetMinFee(1000, true, true)) ?
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2219 2011-06-05 16:54:50 <tcatm> cosurgi: buy those coins :D
2220 2011-06-05 16:55:07 <roconnor> bill_h: that doesn't appear to me to address any of the anonymity issues with bitcoin.
2221 2011-06-05 16:55:51 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2222 2011-06-05 16:56:55 <andrew12> so I heard someone came up with a dsp miner
2223 2011-06-05 16:59:19 * roconnor is slowly becoming convinced bitcoin is broken.
2224 2011-06-05 16:59:26 <andrew12> lol
2225 2011-06-05 16:59:56 <Gekz> dsp miner?
2226 2011-06-05 17:00:07 <andrew12> digital signal processor
2227 2011-06-05 17:00:37 <Gekz> i thought that's what it meant
2228 2011-06-05 17:00:45 <Gekz> my brain refused to let that sink in
2229 2011-06-05 17:00:49 <Gekz> who would do that
2230 2011-06-05 17:00:49 <Gekz> lol
2231 2011-06-05 17:01:03 <andrew12> 190mhash with 10W
2232 2011-06-05 17:01:08 <Gekz> roconnor: broke how
2233 2011-06-05 17:01:50 <Gekz> oh wow
2234 2011-06-05 17:02:08 <Gekz> link?
2235 2011-06-05 17:02:19 <roconnor> Gekz: you can build a "longer" chain with less than 50% of the mining network
2236 2011-06-05 17:02:26 <BlueMatt> ne555: yes, very much on purpose, that pull was to update the ui and get the people who refuse to upgrade off of 0.3.19
2237 2011-06-05 17:02:27 <andrew12> i don't even know where it is
2238 2011-06-05 17:02:32 <andrew12> :p
2239 2011-06-05 17:02:44 <BlueMatt> actual fee requirements still need discussion to come up with a good, workable, solution
2240 2011-06-05 17:02:50 <BlueMatt> or at least get people to agree on one
2241 2011-06-05 17:02:56 vorlov has joined
2242 2011-06-05 17:02:59 <Gekz> roconnor: protocol flaw or client implementation flaw?
2243 2011-06-05 17:03:14 wistiu has joined
2244 2011-06-05 17:03:18 <roconnor> well, since the client is the protcol ...
2245 2011-06-05 17:03:52 <roconnor> actually I think I might be inclined to call it a client implementation flaw, since I think it can be easily fixed if I'm right.
2246 2011-06-05 17:04:38 <Gekz> no, it isn't
2247 2011-06-05 17:04:41 <Gekz> different interpretations result in different implementations
2248 2011-06-05 17:04:47 <Gekz> see :)
2249 2011-06-05 17:05:08 Obehsh has joined
2250 2011-06-05 17:05:19 <roconnor> which result in different protocols which result in different coins
2251 2011-06-05 17:05:33 <forrestv> roconnor, how can you build a longer chain with less than 50% of the mining network?
2252 2011-06-05 17:05:42 jaromil has quit (Quit: leaving)
2253 2011-06-05 17:05:57 <ne555> BlueMatt is there a way to do 0.01 transcation at the moment (that the network will accept to hash) ? 0.01 is a big amout cosidering the current change. What is the problem the change from 0.3.19 ? (i'm new to bc i cloned the source today)
2254 2011-06-05 17:06:32 kik- has joined
2255 2011-06-05 17:07:29 <roconnor> forrestv: My idea is to build a parallel branch with a really high difficulty.  This can be done by building branching off the main chain with a lot of timestamps all close together
2256 2011-06-05 17:08:19 <roconnor> forrestv: then you start building on this brach with high difficult.  Because GetBlockWorks is "wrong" you are rewarded with more difficulty points than hashing effort you expend.
2257 2011-06-05 17:08:38 <BlueMatt> ne555: a way to do 0.01 fee at the moment? not sure what you mean?
2258 2011-06-05 17:08:55 <roconnor> eventually your branch, even though it is shorter, will exceed the difficult of the main branch, and your branch will dominate.
2259 2011-06-05 17:08:56 <BlueMatt> in 0.3.20, IsStandard() was added and the fee requirement for relay was added
2260 2011-06-05 17:09:28 <ne555> BlueMatt: Ok so i will switch back to 0.3.19 too then
2261 2011-06-05 17:09:33 <roconnor> ... although eventually depends on the proportion of the network you have.  The lower proportion you have the longer eventually is.
2262 2011-06-05 17:09:35 <BlueMatt> dont do that
2263 2011-06-05 17:09:43 <BlueMatt> ne555: why would you ever do that?
2264 2011-06-05 17:09:55 <BlueMatt> 0.3.19 has nothing that the fee ui update doesnt
2265 2011-06-05 17:10:17 <BlueMatt> and it can get you in trouble if you only connect to up-to-date nodes (which is likely)
2266 2011-06-05 17:10:19 <roconnor> so I don't think I could reasonably break the main chain with my lone laptop.  It would take decades or centuries or longer I'd guess.  I need to crunch the numbers.
2267 2011-06-05 17:10:29 <roconnor> Maybe I could break testnet
2268 2011-06-05 17:10:32 humana has joined
2269 2011-06-05 17:11:49 <ne555> BlueMatt: or use your branch yes, cause i need to broadcast tx with output less than 0.01, and if many people still use the old my tx will be relayed no ?
2270 2011-06-05 17:11:51 <forrestv> roconnor, how is GetBlockWork 'wrong'? just looked ... as far as i can tell, it returns the mean number of attempts needed to create a block
2271 2011-06-05 17:12:35 <BlueMatt> ne555: no, if most people use up-to-date client, the tx will be rejected (note that an overwhelming majority already do, so it is very likely)
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2276 2011-06-05 17:13:38 <ne555> BlueMatt: so i'm stuck, bitcoin doesnt accept 0.01 out tx anymore, it's a pity, i would understand 0.0000001 tx but 0.01 is huge
2277 2011-06-05 17:13:44 karnac has joined
2278 2011-06-05 17:14:19 <roconnor> forrestv: well maybe I'm wrong but it looks like it returns 1/p where p is the probability of finding a block, whereas the mean number of attempts needed is (1-p)/p^2
2279 2011-06-05 17:14:20 <phantomcircuit> ne555, just increase the number of outbound connections
2280 2011-06-05 17:14:24 <BlueMatt> ne555: no, you can use 0.3.23 when it comes out which should change default minfee to 0.05
2281 2011-06-05 17:14:26 <ne555> BlueMatt: i could clog the network by sending to myself 100BTC i dont understand the spam argument
2282 2011-06-05 17:14:31 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2283 2011-06-05 17:14:50 <BlueMatt> ne555: no, you can slow the network and ddos it if you send yourself 100 BTC, 1000x a second
2284 2011-06-05 17:15:13 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that will only work in very rare cases, best bet is to addnode=a miner who will accept your tx
2285 2011-06-05 17:15:22 <ne555> BlueMatt: so the amount doesnt matter, i dont understand why required fee for smaller amount
2286 2011-06-05 17:15:45 <roconnor> forrestv: maybe I screwed up my probability calculation
2287 2011-06-05 17:15:47 <forrestv> roconnor, no, the mean number of attempts needed _is_ 1/p
2288 2011-06-05 17:15:58 <forrestv> roconnor, (1-p)/p^2 is the variance
2289 2011-06-05 17:16:19 <sipa> ne555: to prevent spam
2290 2011-06-05 17:16:37 <BlueMatt> ne555: because the amount does matter, the txes are effectively rate-limited by setting priority based on age of txins, so to spam you then need to split your 100 into 0.01 chunks
2291 2011-06-05 17:18:46 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2292 2011-06-05 17:18:47 <ne555> I understand but it's annoying, only the size in byte should be taken in account like 1 byte is a fee of 0.00000001 BTC
2293 2011-06-05 17:18:56 galaxyAbstractor has joined
2294 2011-06-05 17:18:59 <galaxyAbstractor> hey
2295 2011-06-05 17:19:04 DontMindMe has joined
2296 2011-06-05 17:19:21 <galaxyAbstractor> Is it possible to run both a server and a client at the same time?
2297 2011-06-05 17:19:40 <phantomcircuit> wat
2298 2011-06-05 17:19:42 <phantomcircuit> it's p2p
2299 2011-06-05 17:19:46 <phantomcircuit> there is no server or client
2300 2011-06-05 17:19:49 <Matson> jgarzik: are you on?
2301 2011-06-05 17:19:52 <galaxyAbstractor> I want to use JSON API
2302 2011-06-05 17:20:04 <galaxyAbstractor> but bitcoin needs to run as a server for that
2303 2011-06-05 17:20:05 <Matson> having a hard time figuring out what command lines etc to use
2304 2011-06-05 17:20:07 <ne555> anyway we have to lower the current GetMinFee default CONST 0.01 is like 0.20 USD
2305 2011-06-05 17:20:09 <Matson> I'm trying to set up jgarzik's CPU minerd on a linux box to use with deepbit
2306 2011-06-05 17:20:37 <phantomcircuit> Matson, why deepbit?
2307 2011-06-05 17:20:55 <phantomcircuit> also i hope you have free power
2308 2011-06-05 17:20:56 <ne555> BlueMatt: do you plan to do patch to let people choose the fee they want to relay or not ?
2309 2011-06-05 17:20:58 <BlueMatt> ne555: because load is not size-dependent, it depends on how many txins used
2310 2011-06-05 17:21:08 <BlueMatt> ie how many sigs need verified
2311 2011-06-05 17:21:11 <Matson> power is a sunk cost for this machine
2312 2011-06-05 17:21:12 <BlueMatt> no, I dont
2313 2011-06-05 17:21:19 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i like luke-jr's formula on eligius, btc/byte
2314 2011-06-05 17:21:22 <Matson> phantomcircuit: no particular reason yet
2315 2011-06-05 17:21:31 <ne555> BlueMatt: ok i understand
2316 2011-06-05 17:21:39 <Matson> just trying to get some miner set up and trying it out
2317 2011-06-05 17:21:41 <phantomcircuit> Matson, power is a sunk cost? wat you prepaid for power?
2318 2011-06-05 17:21:44 <BlueMatt> well, yes, there is work being done to agree on a better fee policy, but that is to be done on a community-baseis
2319 2011-06-05 17:21:54 <BlueMatt> not on a "Im gonna write a patch to do x or y"
2320 2011-06-05 17:22:02 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: <BlueMatt> ne555: because load is not size-dependent, it depends on how many txins used
2321 2011-06-05 17:22:02 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> ie how many sigs need verified
2322 2011-06-05 17:22:04 <Matson> phantomcircuit: I pay for this machine for many other uses, and the 4 CPU cores are mostly idle
2323 2011-06-05 17:22:04 <ne555> BlueMatt: in the mean time how can i test my system ?
2324 2011-06-05 17:22:14 <BlueMatt> ne555: test what system?
2325 2011-06-05 17:22:30 gsathya has joined
2326 2011-06-05 17:22:32 <Matson> phantomcircuit: so I might as well pin them mining
2327 2011-06-05 17:22:38 <phantomcircuit> Matson, the difference between idle and full tilt power draw is substantial
2328 2011-06-05 17:22:38 <ne555> BlueMatt: does tesnet allow it sendind 0.01 or less between accounts ?
2329 2011-06-05 17:22:44 keebus has joined
2330 2011-06-05 17:22:47 <jgarzik> Matson: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=1925.0
2331 2011-06-05 17:22:48 <Matson> good thing it's not measured
2332 2011-06-05 17:23:01 <sipa> ne555: yes, if you want to pay a fee
2333 2011-06-05 17:23:08 <phantomcircuit> oh so it is free power
2334 2011-06-05 17:23:13 <Matson> kind of
2335 2011-06-05 17:23:16 <Matson> yeah
2336 2011-06-05 17:23:18 <ne555> sipa: i cannot the min fee is 0.01
2337 2011-06-05 17:23:34 <galaxyAbstractor> phantomcircuit: I am doing a firefox addon that should make it easier to pay and donate stuff directly from the browser interface, and that will require bitcoin to be run as a server for the JSON-RPC API to be available, but I don't want to remove the normal bitcoin GUI because I will not implement it's functionality in the firefox addon
2338 2011-06-05 17:23:36 <ne555> sipa: when i transfer 0.01 what fee should i use ?
2339 2011-06-05 17:23:42 <galaxyAbstractor> so what should I do?
2340 2011-06-05 17:23:47 <sipa> ne555: whatever it requires
2341 2011-06-05 17:23:47 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2342 2011-06-05 17:23:56 <ne555> sipa: 0.01
2343 2011-06-05 17:24:01 <ne555> sipa: so it's useless
2344 2011-06-05 17:24:11 <keebus> guys question: why isnt the change address equal to the sender one?
2345 2011-06-05 17:24:13 <phantomcircuit> Matson, ./minerd --algo sse2_64 --threads 8 --url deepbit url goes here --user -- pass
2346 2011-06-05 17:24:31 <sipa> keebus: anonimity
2347 2011-06-05 17:24:40 JRWR has joined
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2349 2011-06-05 17:24:40 JRWR has joined
2350 2011-06-05 17:24:46 <sipa> keebus: now you can't derive which is the payment and which is the change
2351 2011-06-05 17:25:09 <keebus> so each time a make a new payment I get a new address..?
2352 2011-06-05 17:25:25 <sipa> yes
2353 2011-06-05 17:25:29 <Matson> phantomcircuit: got that, I have minerd working
2354 2011-06-05 17:25:30 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 1169
2355 2011-06-05 17:25:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1169 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 50 years, 34 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 18 minutes, and 42 seconds
2356 2011-06-05 17:25:37 <Matson> whats the "deepbit url"?
2357 2011-06-05 17:25:41 <keebus> sipa: will it appear on the gui?
2358 2011-06-05 17:25:50 B0g4r7 has joined
2359 2011-06-05 17:25:59 <sipa> keebus: no
2360 2011-06-05 17:26:00 <phantomcircuit> Matson, well you can create an account and all that shit or you can use eligius
2361 2011-06-05 17:26:02 <roconnor> forrestv: thanks, I see where I screwed up my math now.
2362 2011-06-05 17:26:11 <keebus> ok thanks
2363 2011-06-05 17:26:15 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1169
2364 2011-06-05 17:26:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1169 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.00270374820175 BTC per day and 0.000112656175073 BTC per hour.
2365 2011-06-05 17:26:18 <roconnor> forrestv: and I found a page describing exactly this problem: http://blog.blinker.net/2011/02/08/expected-number-of-coin-tosses-until-you-get-tail/
2366 2011-06-05 17:26:28 <Matson> phantomcircuit: would you rec eligius?
2367 2011-06-05 17:26:30 <Matson> googling
2368 2011-06-05 17:26:34 <roconnor> forrestv: it begins with ``Because of my interest in BitCoin I was confronted with the question of the expected number of attempts to achieve a specific result if the probability of achieving the result per attempt is fixed.
2369 2011-06-05 17:26:41 <roconnor> heh
2370 2011-06-05 17:26:57 <phantomcircuit> Matson, http://eligius.st/wiki/index.php/Eligius_mining_pool
2371 2011-06-05 17:27:06 <Gekz> where's the Mac OS X deps instructions
2372 2011-06-05 17:27:26 Blitzboom_ has joined
2373 2011-06-05 17:27:29 <phantomcircuit> galaxyAbstractor, you cant
2374 2011-06-05 17:27:32 <phantomcircuit> galaxyAbstractor, unfortuantely
2375 2011-06-05 17:27:38 <Matson> reading
2376 2011-06-05 17:27:38 <Gekz> for compilation, bien sur
2377 2011-06-05 17:28:21 Mononofu has joined
2378 2011-06-05 17:28:21 <phantomcircuit> Matson, it's much simpler, instead of creating an account you just specify an address as the username
2379 2011-06-05 17:29:03 <Matson> and I get my address with "bitcoin listreceivedbyaddress 0 true" ?
2380 2011-06-05 17:29:09 <Gekz> also, why does bitcoin STILL not have a configure script
2381 2011-06-05 17:29:14 <Gekz> static Makefiles is stupid
2382 2011-06-05 17:29:23 <Matson> I'm still learning many of the details
2383 2011-06-05 17:29:27 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2384 2011-06-05 17:29:29 <Matson> jgarzik: thanks
2385 2011-06-05 17:29:30 <forrestv> roconnor, if you need a proof, that's good, but i find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution useful :p
2386 2011-06-05 17:29:40 <galaxyAbstractor> Maybe I'll write some automation in AutoIT or Java awt Robot then :P
2387 2011-06-05 17:31:17 joepie96 has joined
2388 2011-06-05 17:31:30 <roconnor> forrestv: difficulty is proportional to work?
2389 2011-06-05 17:31:48 <sipa> roconnor: what's your question?
2390 2011-06-05 17:32:06 <forrestv> roconnor, yes
2391 2011-06-05 17:32:12 <roconnor> is the difficulty number proportional to the value returned by GetBlockWork
2392 2011-06-05 17:32:18 <sipa> yes
2393 2011-06-05 17:32:23 <sipa> factor 2^48/65535
2394 2011-06-05 17:32:43 <sipa> GetBlockWork is the average number of hash attempts that were needed
2395 2011-06-05 17:32:45 joepie95 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2396 2011-06-05 17:32:55 <roconnor> ya, forrestv was explaining that to me :D
2397 2011-06-05 17:32:57 <sipa> s/average/expected
2398 2011-06-05 17:33:02 <roconnor> forrestv: sorry for being so dumb
2399 2011-06-05 17:33:15 <Matson> phantomcircuit: jgarzik: nice, I appear to be clipping along at 4.4Mh/s
2400 2011-06-05 17:33:35 <Matson> not world shaking, but not shabby
2401 2011-06-05 17:33:44 <jgarzik> Matson: do you pay for your own electricity?
2402 2011-06-05 17:33:50 <vegard> that's pretty shabby :-P
2403 2011-06-05 17:34:56 <Matson> jgarzik: yes, but it's not metered per box, this is on a shared pool of colo'd servers.  so the amount I pay each month covers power, but it doesn't cost me more if I use more
2404 2011-06-05 17:35:26 <Matson> so in this case, my power use is not metered and sunk cost to me
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2406 2011-06-05 17:36:04 <phantomcircuit> Matson, if you're pegging the cpu 24/7 you're likely to get kicked out
2407 2011-06-05 17:36:17 joepie96 has joined
2408 2011-06-05 17:36:57 <Matson> hmmm, it's a big pool of servers 40/case and about 8 cases
2409 2011-06-05 17:37:03 <Matson> I just have one
2410 2011-06-05 17:37:24 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
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2413 2011-06-05 17:39:06 Obehsh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2414 2011-06-05 17:39:06 <Matson> phantomcircuit: are you using Eligius, and can you relate hash/s and how it pays out?
2415 2011-06-05 17:39:10 samfisher has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2416 2011-06-05 17:39:15 da2ce7 has joined
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2418 2011-06-05 17:40:46 RazielZ has joined
2419 2011-06-05 17:41:11 eoss has joined
2420 2011-06-05 17:43:01 wood_ has joined
2421 2011-06-05 17:43:19 <Matson> #Eligius
2422 2011-06-05 17:45:08 x6763 has joined
2423 2011-06-05 17:45:39 mmoya has joined
2424 2011-06-05 17:45:52 <Gekz> I am building an OS X Lion version of Bitcoin :P
2425 2011-06-05 17:46:01 keebus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2426 2011-06-05 17:46:52 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #11: FAILURE in 1 hr 0 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/11/
2427 2011-06-05 17:47:03 <BlueMatt> huh?
2428 2011-06-05 17:48:54 <topi`> Matson: eligius pays nicely out, we get around 5 btc per week, or maybe less now when the difficulty is up. my brother does 235 Mhash/s and my Macbook does 2.1 Mhash :)
2429 2011-06-05 17:49:00 <topi`> so 237 M in total ;)
2430 2011-06-05 17:49:22 <Gekz> btcguild is better
2431 2011-06-05 17:49:26 <topi`> but I own the Radeon inside my bro's box, so I get the hashes ;)
2432 2011-06-05 17:50:38 devrandom has joined
2433 2011-06-05 17:51:10 blewzername has joined
2434 2011-06-05 17:51:33 <topi`> Gekz: why do you think so?
2435 2011-06-05 17:51:40 <blewzername> how can i turn off debug.log (win32), or reduce verbosity. its creating hundred of megabytes of logging and the more problematic is constant i/o crap on that file :((((
2436 2011-06-05 17:51:53 <Gekz> 0 fees, donation based
2437 2011-06-05 17:51:58 <Gekz> so unless you want to donate, you dont have to
2438 2011-06-05 17:52:04 <Gekz> the developer actually puts effort into his site
2439 2011-06-05 17:52:09 <Gekz> it's a nice community
2440 2011-06-05 17:53:06 MasterChief has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2441 2011-06-05 17:55:04 metonymous has joined
2442 2011-06-05 17:56:16 <blewzername> noone?
2443 2011-06-05 17:56:27 <metonymous> what?
2444 2011-06-05 17:56:32 <roconnor> after block 1260000 block creation yields only fees?
2445 2011-06-05 17:56:45 <metonymous> 21,000,000 blocks
2446 2011-06-05 17:56:48 <metonymous> wait
2447 2011-06-05 17:56:49 <metonymous> coins
2448 2011-06-05 17:56:50 <metonymous> no
2449 2011-06-05 17:56:55 <metonymous> exponential decay
2450 2011-06-05 17:56:56 MasterChief has joined
2451 2011-06-05 17:56:57 <metonymous> always half
2452 2011-06-05 17:57:00 <metonymous> never 0
2453 2011-06-05 17:57:10 <metonymous> approaches 21,000,000
2454 2011-06-05 17:57:12 <metonymous> never gets there
2455 2011-06-05 17:57:15 <metonymous> asymptote
2456 2011-06-05 17:57:21 <sipa> it does get there
2457 2011-06-05 17:57:29 <metonymous> sigh
2458 2011-06-05 17:57:29 <sipa> as there is only limited precision
2459 2011-06-05 17:57:32 <metonymous> there goes my theory
2460 2011-06-05 17:57:32 <ArtForz> it doesnt reach 21M, and the reward reaches 0
2461 2011-06-05 17:57:34 <blueCmd> phew, the protcol is quite huge :-) but the wireshark dissector is starting to turn out really nice.
2462 2011-06-05 17:57:58 johnnympereira5 has joined
2463 2011-06-05 17:58:02 <sipa> blueCmd: what language is that written in?
2464 2011-06-05 17:58:06 <blueCmd> c
2465 2011-06-05 17:58:12 <mrenouf> has anyone reported the issue of Eclipse CDT crashing on BitCoin source?
2466 2011-06-05 17:58:33 <roconnor> metonymous: it stops at 20671875 right?
2467 2011-06-05 17:58:33 <Gekz> conspiracy
2468 2011-06-05 17:58:54 <metonymous> i haven't done th math
2469 2011-06-05 17:59:01 <metonymous> 8 decimal places
2470 2011-06-05 17:59:06 <roconnor> block after 1260000 should have no coinbase transactions I guess?
2471 2011-06-05 17:59:06 <metonymous> keep halfing
2472 2011-06-05 17:59:08 <metonymous> see how long it takes
2473 2011-06-05 17:59:13 GarrettB has joined
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2475 2011-06-05 17:59:13 GarrettB has joined
2476 2011-06-05 17:59:24 * roconnor has a bug
2477 2011-06-05 17:59:36 <sipa> roconnor: they will have coinbases
2478 2011-06-05 17:59:48 <ArtForz> they will always have coinbases
2479 2011-06-05 17:59:48 <sipa> a valid block has a coinbase as first tx
2480 2011-06-05 17:59:57 <ArtForz> total is 20999999.9769
2481 2011-06-05 18:00:09 <roconnor> sipa: what if there are no fees in the block?
2482 2011-06-05 18:00:17 <metonymous> poor miner
2483 2011-06-05 18:00:21 <metonymous> or, reject them all!
2484 2011-06-05 18:00:23 <BlueMatt> if there are no fees in the block, why are you mining?
2485 2011-06-05 18:00:24 <metonymous> custom clients ftw
2486 2011-06-05 18:00:26 <sipa> roconnor: then you have a coinbase output of 0
2487 2011-06-05 18:00:31 <sipa> or just don't mine
2488 2011-06-05 18:00:36 <roconnor> BlueMatt: because you have your own transaction in it
2489 2011-06-05 18:00:44 <metonymous> only accept fee tx
2490 2011-06-05 18:00:45 <sipa> hmmm, is it possible to have a tx with no output at all?
2491 2011-06-05 18:00:47 <ArtForz> at block 6930000
2492 2011-06-05 18:00:48 <roconnor> sipa: is an output of 0 legal?
2493 2011-06-05 18:00:52 <sipa> roconnor: yes
2494 2011-06-05 18:00:53 <ArtForz> yes
2495 2011-06-05 18:00:58 <ArtForz> 0-outputs are legal
2496 2011-06-05 18:01:00 <metonymous> no. i mean yes
2497 2011-06-05 18:01:40 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2498 2011-06-05 18:01:59 <roconnor> so you just but garbage in the script and assign a value of 0?
2499 2011-06-05 18:02:05 <roconnor> *put
2500 2011-06-05 18:02:28 <sipa> the script of the coinbase input is the extranonc
2501 2011-06-05 18:02:29 <sipa> +e
2502 2011-06-05 18:02:38 <roconnor> sipa: I'm talking about the ouput
2503 2011-06-05 18:02:46 <roconnor> the 0 output
2504 2011-06-05 18:02:58 <sipa> well, i expect it's even possible to have no output at all
2505 2011-06-05 18:03:17 <sipa> and if not, just a dummy output indeed
2506 2011-06-05 18:03:20 <roconnor> I'm fairly certain that the client checks to see that all transactions have at least one input and one output
2507 2011-06-05 18:03:34 * roconnor reviews the code
2508 2011-06-05 18:04:20 <sipa> roconnor: can't find it immediately, but may be
2509 2011-06-05 18:04:39 <sipa> yes, you're right
2510 2011-06-05 18:05:00 <sipa> CTransaction::CheckTransaction checks for empty vin and vout
2511 2011-06-05 18:05:14 <roconnor> ah but I see that the value can be 0
2512 2011-06-05 18:05:41 <sipa> btw, the last block to give a reward is 6929999
2513 2011-06-05 18:05:43 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2514 2011-06-05 18:06:29 Archevety has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
2515 2011-06-05 18:06:38 <roconnor> not block 1260000 ?
2516 2011-06-05 18:06:47 <roconnor> I mean the previous one
2517 2011-06-05 18:06:56 <roconnor> 6 * 210,000 - 1
2518 2011-06-05 18:07:01 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2519 2011-06-05 18:07:45 * roconnor worries about overflows in his accounting arithmetic
2520 2011-06-05 18:11:42 wistiu has joined
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2524 2011-06-05 18:17:31 <roconnor> ArtForz: ah oh
2525 2011-06-05 18:18:32 ArtForzZz has joined
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2527 2011-06-05 18:19:35  has quit (Netsniper|!~se@adsl-68-251-190-10.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2528 2011-06-05 18:21:28 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2529 2011-06-05 18:21:59 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, how would you ahve overflows in haskell
2530 2011-06-05 18:22:04 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
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2533 2011-06-05 18:22:35 <roconnor> ArtForz: so how many so Satoshi's is the creation free for block 2,100,000 worth?
2534 2011-06-05 18:22:47 <roconnor> after all 2^10 doesn't divide 5000000000
2535 2011-06-05 18:22:58 <sipa> it's just integer division
2536 2011-06-05 18:23:21 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: I was using Word32s since that is how the values were serialized
2537 2011-06-05 18:23:22 <ArtForzZz> 50000000 >> 10
2538 2011-06-05 18:23:27 <ArtForzZz> errr
2539 2011-06-05 18:23:31 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: I fixed it to use Integers
2540 2011-06-05 18:23:32 <ArtForzZz> 5000000000 >> 10
2541 2011-06-05 18:23:34 <sipa> it's after 33 havings
2542 2011-06-05 18:23:43 <sipa> that it ends
2543 2011-06-05 18:24:06 <roconnor> sipa: it is half then round then half then round or half half half then round?
2544 2011-06-05 18:25:06 magnificus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2545 2011-06-05 18:25:19 <sipa> roconnor: div :: Integer -> Integer -> Integer
2546 2011-06-05 18:25:51 <ArtForzZz> it doesnt round, it truncs
2547 2011-06-05 18:25:59 <sipa> and that last question is actually irrelevant
2548 2011-06-05 18:26:06 <sipa> you just drop the lowest order bit each time
2549 2011-06-05 18:26:07 <roconnor> right but do I divide the last coinbase value by 2 or do I divide 5000000000 by 2^n
2550 2011-06-05 18:26:17 <ArtForzZz> same difference
2551 2011-06-05 18:26:19 <sipa> both will give you the same result
2552 2011-06-05 18:26:22 <roconnor> oh
2553 2011-06-05 18:26:30 <roconnor> heh
2554 2011-06-05 18:28:19 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2555 2011-06-05 18:28:35 <roconnor> oh
2556 2011-06-05 18:28:59 <roconnor> heh I see, it only runs out at that point because 5000000000 is 33 bits.
2557 2011-06-05 18:29:20 <cyberdo> In the API: listreceivedbyaccount shows different balance than listaccounts after a move. (version 3.20.02)... is this a known bug?
2558 2011-06-05 18:29:52 <cyberdo> I "can't" update, since I can't afford paying forced fees during testing
2559 2011-06-05 18:30:10 blewzername has left ()
2560 2011-06-05 18:30:38 lyspooner has joined
2561 2011-06-05 18:30:57 <roconnor> sipa, ArtForzZz: Thanks!
2562 2011-06-05 18:31:03 <sipa> cyberdo: you should test on testnet :)
2563 2011-06-05 18:31:47 sabalaba has joined
2564 2011-06-05 18:32:21 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2565 2011-06-05 18:33:51 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2566 2011-06-05 18:33:59 <cyberdo> sipa: I do
2567 2011-06-05 18:34:21 <cyberdo> but the enforced fees in the latest version ate way more coins than I wanted
2568 2011-06-05 18:37:04 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r352b4ea / src/main.h : Reduce minimum TX fee for new transactions, to 0.0005. - http://bit.ly/mgBj2M
2569 2011-06-05 18:37:11 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2570 2011-06-05 18:37:22 Mononofu has left ()
2571 2011-06-05 18:37:36 <jgarzik> cyberdo: -paytxfee=0
2572 2011-06-05 18:37:37 backwardation25 has joined
2573 2011-06-05 18:37:45 <metonymous> i still think a minimum tx fee is dumb
2574 2011-06-05 18:37:50 <jgarzik> cyberdo: no enforced fees on reasonable prio transactions
2575 2011-06-05 18:37:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: what is the timeline for connect timeout pull req?
2576 2011-06-05 18:37:54 <jgarzik> metonymous: ^^
2577 2011-06-05 18:38:03 <metonymous> gotchya
2578 2011-06-05 18:38:20 <cyberdo> jgarzik: how do I change priority then?
2579 2011-06-05 18:38:20 <metonymous> what's "reasonable"
2580 2011-06-05 18:38:21 <jgarzik> metonymous: free TX's will always be supported by the default client
2581 2011-06-05 18:38:26 <metonymous> and does the GUI inform the user
2582 2011-06-05 18:38:50 <jgarzik> cyberdo: free tx priority: based on age and value of coins.  if you pay TX fee, that increases priority.
2583 2011-06-05 18:39:05 <metonymous> there are more blocks than transactions
2584 2011-06-05 18:39:12 <metonymous> ur speaking of a distant future
2585 2011-06-05 18:39:34 <metonymous> an error message with three different possibilites and no way of determining which is counter-useful
2586 2011-06-05 18:39:54 <BlueMatt> damn we already have 3 0.3.23 nodes accepting incoming connections
2587 2011-06-05 18:40:00 <jgarzik> hehe
2588 2011-06-05 18:40:03 <cosurgi> tcatm: that's impossible :) can set some limit on this plot?
2589 2011-06-05 18:40:04 <metonymous> i'm a 3.23
2590 2011-06-05 18:40:11 <metonymous> on my 256 connection box
2591 2011-06-05 18:40:42 * BlueMatt needs to enable 10000 connections on his box and limit bw on the router
2592 2011-06-05 18:40:49 <metonymous> :D
2593 2011-06-05 18:40:58 <metonymous> i've never got over 120 or sp
2594 2011-06-05 18:41:00 <metonymous> *so
2595 2011-06-05 18:41:20 <BlueMatt> really? my node was rejecting max of 125 last night
2596 2011-06-05 18:41:25 BitVector has joined
2597 2011-06-05 18:41:37 <cyberdo> jgarzik: I don't know if anything changed since friday or so, but then I was forced to pay 0.01 in fees. There was no way to choose "I don't care if it's not arriving until I retire"
2598 2011-06-05 18:41:42 Chopes has joined
2599 2011-06-05 18:41:50 <metonymous> cyberdo, i agree with that sentiment
2600 2011-06-05 18:41:58 <sipa> cyberdo: it's not a question of not arriving
2601 2011-06-05 18:42:07 <metonymous> not being included in a block
2602 2011-06-05 18:42:11 <sipa> it's q question being almost guaranteed to be dropped immediately by the network
2603 2011-06-05 18:42:21 <sipa> that said, i agree, you should be able to force it anyway
2604 2011-06-05 18:42:21 <metonymous> if ALL nodes are like that
2605 2011-06-05 18:42:32 <BlueMatt> Better Fee UI pull req?
2606 2011-06-05 18:42:36 <Chopes> hey all, wondering if ya had a sec sipa for a pm? @_@
2607 2011-06-05 18:42:37 <metonymous> yes
2608 2011-06-05 18:42:45 <sipa> cyberdo: just ask it here
2609 2011-06-05 18:42:48 <sipa> eh, Chopes
2610 2011-06-05 18:43:06 Nicksasa is now known as AFK!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
2611 2011-06-05 18:43:12 <metonymous> If there are 3 different ways that a transaction is "encouraged for a fee", there should be three different settable TX fees
2612 2011-06-05 18:43:13 <BlueMatt> unless its a security bug, its always best to ask in public :)
2613 2011-06-05 18:43:16 <Chopes> oh, lyspooner suggested you might be able to assist with steping through the begining of this authentification?
2614 2011-06-05 18:43:24 <Chopes> the wiki is sort of confusing @_@
2615 2011-06-05 18:43:29 <metonymous> and they should make sense to a lay person
2616 2011-06-05 18:43:37 <metonymous> maturity makes sense
2617 2011-06-05 18:43:38 <jgarzik> metonymous: I think you should review https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
2618 2011-06-05 18:43:43 <cyberdo> anyway.. the problem was not the fee... it's the "In the API: listreceivedbyaccount shows different balance than listaccounts after a move. (version 3.20.02)... is this a known bug?"
2619 2011-06-05 18:43:46 <jgarzik> metonymous: you appear to be confused
2620 2011-06-05 18:43:51 <metonymous> possibly
2621 2011-06-05 18:43:55 <metonymous> i'll read it
2622 2011-06-05 18:44:07 <metonymous> i'm basing my experience on the usage of 3.21 and 3.22
2623 2011-06-05 18:44:19 <metonymous> not the spec
2624 2011-06-05 18:44:26 <metonymous> cos the average user shouldn't have to have read the spec
2625 2011-06-05 18:44:33 <metonymous> just my opinion on that one
2626 2011-06-05 18:44:44 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #43: FAILURE in 6 min 6 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/43/
2627 2011-06-05 18:44:45 <BlueMattBot> jgarzik: Reduce minimum TX fee for new transactions, to 0.0005.
2628 2011-06-05 18:44:52 <BlueMatt> oh god, wtf
2629 2011-06-05 18:45:02 <BlueMatt> why is this thing freaking out so much atm?
2630 2011-06-05 18:45:27 <BlueMatt> Im not even touching that file atm
2631 2011-06-05 18:45:37 <metonymous> users never see a transactions inputs
2632 2011-06-05 18:45:51 <sipa> and they shouldn't
2633 2011-06-05 18:45:58 <metonymous> then the fee shouldn't talk about it
2634 2011-06-05 18:46:03 <metonymous> that's confusing
2635 2011-06-05 18:46:11 <sipa> but they should understand that sending a transaction is not free
2636 2011-06-05 18:46:16 <metonymous> i'm approaching this from an HCI viewpoint
2637 2011-06-05 18:46:22 <sipa> whether it's done through inflation or fees, there is a cost
2638 2011-06-05 18:46:35 <metonymous> they should understand why, and what they risk if they choose 0
2639 2011-06-05 18:46:41 <sipa> agree
2640 2011-06-05 18:47:13 <metonymous> how many transactions are being stored in each block, roughly, at the moment
2641 2011-06-05 18:47:20 <sipa> www.blockexplorer.com
2642 2011-06-05 18:47:24 <metonymous> ta
2643 2011-06-05 18:47:30 <jgarzik> Better Fee UI pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/289
2644 2011-06-05 18:47:51 <metonymous> u've already coded it? cool
2645 2011-06-05 18:49:03 <metonymous> wow, recent block was 25563.40924166 BTC
2646 2011-06-05 18:49:07 <metonymous> impressive
2647 2011-06-05 18:49:36 <metonymous> who minted this block 128821	3bb1a1efe7...	2011-06-05 18:12:36	1	50	1.576
2648 2011-06-05 18:49:39 <metonymous> 1 transaction
2649 2011-06-05 18:49:51 Blitzboom_ has joined
2650 2011-06-05 18:49:58 <sipa> looks like eligius
2651 2011-06-05 18:50:25 <metonymous> ah, multiple outputs
2652 2011-06-05 18:50:30 <metonymous> the gui don't let one do that
2653 2011-06-05 18:50:35 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2654 2011-06-05 18:50:37 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2655 2011-06-05 18:50:46 <sipa> even better: multiple outputs on the coinbase
2656 2011-06-05 18:50:53 <metonymous> true
2657 2011-06-05 18:50:56 <metonymous> the en.wiki says the protocol supports "escrow" natively, how so?
2658 2011-06-05 18:51:16 <bill_h> roconnor: Thanks looking at the recipe.  How would you track someone using the recipe?
2659 2011-06-05 18:51:37 <sipa> metonymous: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8821.0
2660 2011-06-05 18:51:43 <cyberdo> about the fees... shouldn't it be definable in the "sendtoaddress"
2661 2011-06-05 18:51:43 <metonymous> thanks
2662 2011-06-05 18:51:45 <sipa> metonymous: tbh, i haven't read it completely myself either
2663 2011-06-05 18:52:17 <metonymous> some fees are per kb, they should understand the multiplier
2664 2011-06-05 18:52:20 <metonymous> i got burnt by that once
2665 2011-06-05 18:52:56 <sipa> metonymous: it's all in BlueMatt's pull request to improve the situation
2666 2011-06-05 18:52:59  has joined
2667 2011-06-05 18:53:10 <metonymous> sipa, ta, i'll have to build it
2668 2011-06-05 18:53:15 <metonymous> i look forward to it
2669 2011-06-05 18:53:29 <metonymous> sorry for doubling conversation
2670 2011-06-05 18:53:57 <BlueMatt> metonymous: if you look at the pull, and go to the forum thread, there is a screenshot and clear description of what is changed
2671 2011-06-05 18:54:13 <metonymous> ok, thanks :)
2672 2011-06-05 18:55:25 <metonymous> would it help the user if the message about per "KB" included average transaction sizes?
2673 2011-06-05 18:55:57 _Netsniper_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2674 2011-06-05 18:55:59 <metonymous> rather, half the block size / 2 or something
2675 2011-06-05 18:56:36 <BlueMatt> ok, should have fixed the main build problems, sorry for all the error emails gavin
2676 2011-06-05 18:56:37 <metonymous> even geeks, unless they've read the spec, won't know what that means. but what you've done is a huge improvement, kudos BlueMatt
2677 2011-06-05 18:56:47 <BlueMatt> suggestions?
2678 2011-06-05 18:57:00 <metonymous> can I mock up a picture?
2679 2011-06-05 18:57:14 <metonymous> i don't have a build environment yet
2680 2011-06-05 18:57:35 <BlueMatt> changing the text is better, just wright out what you think the text should be
2681 2011-06-05 18:57:42 <BlueMatt> write*
2682 2011-06-05 18:57:50 <metonymous> ok, i'll have a quick brainstorm
2683 2011-06-05 18:58:04 <metonymous> where's my freemind
2684 2011-06-05 18:59:14 <jrmithdobbs> so how do you take a private key or btc address and turn it into the pub key form that openssl, for instance, understands? (pub key is derivable from priv key right? ecdsa confuses me)
2685 2011-06-05 18:59:34 <metonymous> btc address is a hash
2686 2011-06-05 18:59:35 <metonymous> digest
2687 2011-06-05 18:59:38 <metonymous> not a key
2688 2011-06-05 18:59:49 <jrmithdobbs> ok so how do you derive from the priv key
2689 2011-06-05 18:59:52 <metonymous> u use ur wallet
2690 2011-06-05 18:59:56 <jrmithdobbs> no
2691 2011-06-05 18:59:56 <metonymous> it's in ur wallet, rather
2692 2011-06-05 18:59:58 <metonymous> ur private key
2693 2011-06-05 19:00:06 annieL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2694 2011-06-05 19:00:09 <jrmithdobbs> yes, i have the priv key
2695 2011-06-05 19:00:10 <andrew12> deepbit has >2000 Ghashes
2696 2011-06-05 19:00:25 <metonymous> then, pageant might do it... with putty
2697 2011-06-05 19:00:32 <metonymous> it's how i did it
2698 2011-06-05 19:00:38 <mtrlt> the address is base56 or something of version + ripemd160(sha256(publickey)) + checksum
2699 2011-06-05 19:00:49 <metonymous> ecdsa(sha256(key))
2700 2011-06-05 19:01:10 <andrew12> ripemd160(sha256(sha256(pubkey))), right?
2701 2011-06-05 19:01:11 <vegard> hm. how hard is it (for government/others) to take down bitcoin.org?
2702 2011-06-05 19:01:14 <mtrlt> andrew12: no
2703 2011-06-05 19:01:21 <vegard> that would be pretty devastating, at least for a while, right?
2704 2011-06-05 19:01:28 <metonymous> like, crash down? or legal down?
2705 2011-06-05 19:01:39 <vegard> whichever
2706 2011-06-05 19:01:42 <andrew12> vegard: why would they? it wouldn't cause a problem for the bitcoin network
2707 2011-06-05 19:02:00 <andrew12> market might have problems though.
2708 2011-06-05 19:02:25 <metonymous> BlueMatt - are headings possible?
2709 2011-06-05 19:02:30 <metonymous> and links to web pages?
2710 2011-06-05 19:02:36 <metonymous> or ---- what formatting is possible
2711 2011-06-05 19:02:41 <vegard> well, it would stop what I suppose is the main way of distributing new versions of the client
2712 2011-06-05 19:02:46 <BlueMatt> uh...plain text
2713 2011-06-05 19:02:52 <metonymous> ok
2714 2011-06-05 19:02:53 <BlueMatt> dont start linking left and right in the options dialog
2715 2011-06-05 19:02:54 <vegard> including how most new users find their way to the network
2716 2011-06-05 19:02:58 <metonymous> sourceforge.net bitcoin
2717 2011-06-05 19:03:08 <BlueMatt> it should be, at max, a short paragraph to explain the option
2718 2011-06-05 19:03:08 <metonymous> change the dns
2719 2011-06-05 19:03:12 <BlueMatt> any more is just insane
2720 2011-06-05 19:03:15 DukeOfURL has joined
2721 2011-06-05 19:03:16 <metonymous> yes
2722 2011-06-05 19:03:18 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
2723 2011-06-05 19:03:26 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
2724 2011-06-05 19:03:26 Blitzboom has joined
2725 2011-06-05 19:03:32 <BlueMatt> as are links to more info
2726 2011-06-05 19:06:32 <metonymous> can i clarify something
2727 2011-06-05 19:06:48 <BlueMatt> I thought that was the point of what you were doing?
2728 2011-06-05 19:06:56 <metonymous> when it says "per transaction after the first" it's talking about input transactions that the user never sees? or about number of transactions in the block so far
2729 2011-06-05 19:07:10 <Chopes> so, if while I am making my GPG stuff, I forget my passphrase im screwed right? @_@
2730 2011-06-05 19:07:21 <metonymous> u could brute force it
2731 2011-06-05 19:07:22 <metonymous> but yes
2732 2011-06-05 19:07:28 <Chopes> -.-
2733 2011-06-05 19:07:34 <metonymous> why not print out a non pashphrased version of the key
2734 2011-06-05 19:07:39 <metonymous> and store it physically somewhere
2735 2011-06-05 19:07:40 <vegard> you could set up a bounty and get the network to crack it for you ^^
2736 2011-06-05 19:07:43 <metonymous> in a safe
2737 2011-06-05 19:07:52 <metonymous> place
2738 2011-06-05 19:07:52 <Chopes> oh wait
2739 2011-06-05 19:07:56 <Chopes> my pass is correct?
2740 2011-06-05 19:08:02 <Chopes> how long does this usually take to decrypt?
2741 2011-06-05 19:08:07 <metonymous> a moment
2742 2011-06-05 19:08:09 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2743 2011-06-05 19:08:14 <metonymous> unles ur rig is v. slow
2744 2011-06-05 19:08:14 <BlueMatt> metonymous: you mean "per kb tx fee is applied per kb of tx after the first" that means its kb size rounded down * that fee
2745 2011-06-05 19:08:38 <metonymous> ah, thankyou
2746 2011-06-05 19:08:39 <Chopes> metonymous im running prime95 in the background @_@ its at full load, how long then?
2747 2011-06-05 19:08:42 <Chopes> lol
2748 2011-06-05 19:08:48 <metonymous> lol
2749 2011-06-05 19:08:49 kika_ has joined
2750 2011-06-05 19:08:58 <metonymous> change the CPU priority of prime95
2751 2011-06-05 19:09:02 <metonymous> renice it
2752 2011-06-05 19:09:36 <Chopes> just to make sure
2753 2011-06-05 19:09:39 <metonymous> i think the per kb fee should only be set when the user submits the transaction
2754 2011-06-05 19:09:43 <Chopes> the decrypt screen should return something, not leave me hanging right?
2755 2011-06-05 19:09:48 <metonymous> because then u can tell them how big it is
2756 2011-06-05 19:09:52 <Chopes> for some reason my first passphrase always fails too
2757 2011-06-05 19:09:54 <Chopes> which is odd
2758 2011-06-05 19:10:03 <metonymous> i had that problem once
2759 2011-06-05 19:10:04 <metonymous> capslock
2760 2011-06-05 19:10:05 bill_h has quit (Quit: leaving)
2761 2011-06-05 19:10:11 <Chopes> nah, the second one always works, first one fails
2762 2011-06-05 19:10:14 <Chopes> same entry lol
2763 2011-06-05 19:10:15 <metonymous> and another time, i'd accidently deleted the subkey *d'oh"
2764 2011-06-05 19:11:49 <metonymous> BlueMatt, ok, sorry i'm being 'simple' - but "0.01 BTC fee per kilobyte of transaction" makes sense, but then it's free if the block is less than 27Kb? the user never would know that, does it get re-bated back to them?
2765 2011-06-05 19:12:45 <BlueMatt> no, of course not
2766 2011-06-05 19:12:52 <BlueMatt> its the same as current fee is
2767 2011-06-05 19:13:06 jaromil has joined
2768 2011-06-05 19:13:11 <metonymous> but when they submit the transaction, the fee is subtracted there and then, no?
2769 2011-06-05 19:13:18 <metonymous> even before it has confirmations
2770 2011-06-05 19:13:30 <BlueMatt> yea
2771 2011-06-05 19:13:47 <metonymous> ok, so it's relying on the network being robust, gotchya, ta
2772 2011-06-05 19:13:50 <BlueMatt> well technically, the bitcoins arent subtracted until confirmation, but you get the point
2773 2011-06-05 19:14:00 mosimo has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2774 2011-06-05 19:14:06 <metonymous> yeah, yep, i'm starting to grok it
2775 2011-06-05 19:15:08 somecoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2776 2011-06-05 19:15:42 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2777 2011-06-05 19:15:43 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #44: FIXED in 21 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/44/
2778 2011-06-05 19:15:49 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2779 2011-06-05 19:15:53 <metonymous> BlueMatt - how diffuclt would a pop-up uppon transaction send, that has "desitnation address"  current block size 40kb, recommended fee "0.05 BTC" checkbox "wait until next block to transmit"
2780 2011-06-05 19:15:59 <BlueMatt> yep that one fixed, hopefully the other one too
2781 2011-06-05 19:16:00 <metonymous> this is pie in the sky stuff...
2782 2011-06-05 19:16:22 <BlueMatt> you cant know current block size
2783 2011-06-05 19:16:24 <metonymous> scheduled transactions
2784 2011-06-05 19:16:26 <metonymous> why not
2785 2011-06-05 19:16:28 <BlueMatt> you cant
2786 2011-06-05 19:16:39 <metonymous> don't all nodes have what they expect the next block to be?
2787 2011-06-05 19:16:54 <metonymous> what if the transaction doesn't haev enough to cover the eventual size?
2788 2011-06-05 19:17:05 <metonymous> gr.... sorry bout all the questions
2789 2011-06-05 19:17:09 <sipa> then it will wait until the next block
2790 2011-06-05 19:17:17 <metonymous> ah
2791 2011-06-05 19:17:20 <jrmithdobbs> metonymous: no due to latency and differing fee reqs there's no telling
2792 2011-06-05 19:17:26 <BlueMatt> they can make a guess, but its also not "current block size" but will be based on lowest prio and just get ordered
2793 2011-06-05 19:17:28 <jrmithdobbs> and the convoluted priority code
2794 2011-06-05 19:17:36 <metonymous> hehehe
2795 2011-06-05 19:21:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: maybe keep -paytxfee as undocumented option, setting both perkb and base fee?
2796 2011-06-05 19:21:29 <sipa> for backward compatibility
2797 2011-06-05 19:21:35 <BlueMatt> oh good idea
2798 2011-06-05 19:22:03 <roconnor> the first testnet block hasn't been redeamed
2799 2011-06-05 19:22:13 <roconnor> *redeemed
2800 2011-06-05 19:22:43 Archeveties has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2801 2011-06-05 19:23:19 <metonymous> Ok, BlueMatt, i've got something to work with, i think...
2802 2011-06-05 19:23:30 <metonymous> Transactions are stored in Blocks which are created by Bitcoin Miners.
2803 2011-06-05 19:23:30 <metonymous> Fees are paid to Miners as incentive to include a transaction.
2804 2011-06-05 19:23:30 <metonymous> Miner Incentive [ 0.01 ] BTC per transaction (0.01 recommended)
2805 2011-06-05 19:23:30 <metonymous> As more transactions are included, the Block increases in size.
2806 2011-06-05 19:23:30 <metonymous> Miners incentive [0.01] BTC multiplied by the size of the block
2807 2011-06-05 19:24:09 <BlueMatt> way too much background info
2808 2011-06-05 19:24:15 <metonymous> i disagree
2809 2011-06-05 19:24:17 <BlueMatt> much better to leave that out and just explain the results imho
2810 2011-06-05 19:24:33 <metonymous> hmm
2811 2011-06-05 19:24:37 Ramokk has quit ()
2812 2011-06-05 19:26:03 metonymous_ has joined
2813 2011-06-05 19:26:50 <metonymous_> BlueMatt does this dialogue still appear? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Lfm_fee.png
2814 2011-06-05 19:26:55 <roconnor> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa  :D
2815 2011-06-05 19:26:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: done
2816 2011-06-05 19:27:17 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: yes, but with much better wording
2817 2011-06-05 19:27:25 <metonymous_> cool
2818 2011-06-05 19:27:54 <metonymous_> wowzers 1B8s1F8JrZtPdsf69opKG3MjhLMKeX8rwE: 24000
2819 2011-06-05 19:28:25 <metonymous_> BlueMatt, i really like the autocommit with output, that's really nice
2820 2011-06-05 19:28:57 <BlueMatt> thanks
2821 2011-06-05 19:29:15 <BlueMatt> oh, that reminds me, I need to change return value of one of those functions...just dont remember which one...
2822 2011-06-05 19:29:16 metonymous has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2823 2011-06-05 19:29:24 <metonymous_> grep!
2824 2011-06-05 19:29:36 galaxyAbstractor has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chatta smidigt. Överallt.")
2825 2011-06-05 19:29:58 Mad7Scientist has joined
2826 2011-06-05 19:30:48 <BlueMatt> there we go, now setautocommit returns the thing it was set to instead of true
2827 2011-06-05 19:30:56 <metonymous_> hehe
2828 2011-06-05 19:31:22 <metonymous_> i forsee a "version fork" of more than just an eligius... there is no reason other than technical proficiency each pool isn't using their own custom priorities
2829 2011-06-05 19:31:40 <BlueMatt> each pool pretty much is
2830 2011-06-05 19:31:48 <andrew12> < roconnor> the first testnet block hasn't been redeemed
2831 2011-06-05 19:31:52 <andrew12> neither has the first bitcoin block
2832 2011-06-05 19:32:00 <metonymous_> and it's pretty much only the non mining clients, that have the new ruleset
2833 2011-06-05 19:32:15 <BlueMatt> huh?
2834 2011-06-05 19:32:17 <BlueMatt> not true
2835 2011-06-05 19:32:36 vikarti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2836 2011-06-05 19:32:40 <metonymous_> of the big pools, how many use standard bitcoind?
2837 2011-06-05 19:32:44 <BlueMatt> most of the pools do use IsStandard, ie have upgraded...but still use their own bitcoind
2838 2011-06-05 19:32:56 <metonymous_> ok
2839 2011-06-05 19:33:00 <BlueMatt> I would assume none use stock, unmodified ones
2840 2011-06-05 19:33:02 <metonymous_> what's their incentive to maintain that?
2841 2011-06-05 19:33:23 <BlueMatt> more accepting of txes with <0.01 fees
2842 2011-06-05 19:33:35 <BlueMatt> (as, by default, those are the same as free txes)
2843 2011-06-05 19:33:35 <metonymous_> but that's not a pools incentive...
2844 2011-06-05 19:33:40 <metonymous_> they pay for bandwidth
2845 2011-06-05 19:33:51 <metonymous_> ala eligius ruleset
2846 2011-06-05 19:34:00 <BlueMatt> that is a pool incentive, as you then get more money
2847 2011-06-05 19:34:18 <metonymous_> bandwidth vs fees
2848 2011-06-05 19:34:19 <BlueMatt> (potentially)
2849 2011-06-05 19:34:21 <metonymous_> true
2850 2011-06-05 19:34:25 <BlueMatt> it costs no more bw
2851 2011-06-05 19:34:25 <gmaxwell> Eligius rules are there to pay for bandwidth— they're a more strict standard on spam transactions.
2852 2011-06-05 19:34:28 <BlueMatt> it costs the same bw
2853 2011-06-05 19:34:49 <metonymous_> doesn't taht depend on ur rules?
2854 2011-06-05 19:34:59 <BlueMatt> eligius rules are the stupidest thing Ive ever seen...who the fuck wants to send txes that *can* only be confirmed by eligius
2855 2011-06-05 19:35:04 <metonymous_> if you only accept >0.05, for example
2856 2011-06-05 19:35:06 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2857 2011-06-05 19:35:19 <metonymous_> like gmaxwell said, it's a poor mans spam proteection
2858 2011-06-05 19:35:24 <BlueMatt> no its not
2859 2011-06-05 19:35:35 <roconnor> what is Eligius?
2860 2011-06-05 19:35:40 <metonymous_> a mining pool
2861 2011-06-05 19:35:41 <BlueMatt> oh you mean the rules eligius uses for txes?
2862 2011-06-05 19:35:42 <metonymous_> eligius.st
2863 2011-06-05 19:35:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: we're talking about seperate things. I was talking about the 0.00004096/512byte fee.
2864 2011-06-05 19:35:48 <BlueMatt> well those are just, I wants more fees
2865 2011-06-05 19:35:56 <metonymous_> yeah
2866 2011-06-05 19:36:03 <BlueMatt> not that I really blame him
2867 2011-06-05 19:36:11 <metonymous_> neither
2868 2011-06-05 19:36:12 <BlueMatt> he wants more money, who doesnt?
2869 2011-06-05 19:36:27 <sipa> i don't think that's the motivation
2870 2011-06-05 19:36:34 <BlueMatt> then what is?
2871 2011-06-05 19:36:38 <gmaxwell> Thats not the motivation. Do the math.
2872 2011-06-05 19:36:45 <sipa> no idea
2873 2011-06-05 19:36:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: what is?
2874 2011-06-05 19:37:10 <metonymous_> bandwidth
2875 2011-06-05 19:37:12 <metonymous_> costs
2876 2011-06-05 19:37:16 <BlueMatt> lol
2877 2011-06-05 19:37:16 <metonymous_> ?
2878 2011-06-05 19:37:18 <gmaxwell> no. jesus do the math.
2879 2011-06-05 19:37:25 <metonymous_> jesus does math?
2880 2011-06-05 19:37:35 <metonymous_> cbf
2881 2011-06-05 19:37:53 <metonymous_> i have a question though
2882 2011-06-05 19:37:54 <BlueMatt> he pays the same bw whether he accepts a tx or not (well almost identical, off by maybe 0.01%)
2883 2011-06-05 19:37:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the motivation is just discouraging spammy transactions. Ask luke-jr why he cares more than other folks, as I don't know.
2884 2011-06-05 19:38:05 <BlueMatt> lol
2885 2011-06-05 19:38:11 <metonymous_> BlueMatt you're wrong
2886 2011-06-05 19:38:15 <metonymous_> look at his blocks
2887 2011-06-05 19:38:26 <metonymous_> because no-one pays it
2888 2011-06-05 19:38:28 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: you know that pools don't send the blocks to the miners, right?
2889 2011-06-05 19:38:30 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: he still relays and accepts txes
2890 2011-06-05 19:38:32 <metonymous_> he just has to include generate ones
2891 2011-06-05 19:38:38 <BlueMatt> he only spends when he relays blocks he found
2892 2011-06-05 19:38:38 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, atm, correct
2893 2011-06-05 19:38:44 <BlueMatt> so its a tiny, tiny change in bw costs
2894 2011-06-05 19:38:45 <metonymous_> miners don't run bitcoin
2895 2011-06-05 19:38:52 <sipa> metonymous_: ...
2896 2011-06-05 19:38:54 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: he's only produced something like two or three empty blocks.
2897 2011-06-05 19:39:04 <metonymous_> are miners nodes, yes or no
2898 2011-06-05 19:39:11 <BlueMatt> of course
2899 2011-06-05 19:39:17 <metonymous_> how many connections
2900 2011-06-05 19:39:18 <sipa> if you talk about getwork()-based miners, no
2901 2011-06-05 19:39:23 <metonymous_> yes
2902 2011-06-05 19:39:28 <BlueMatt> oh, ok then no
2903 2011-06-05 19:39:29 <metonymous_> which the majority are, no?
2904 2011-06-05 19:39:49 <metonymous_> pools are like one MASSIVE BTC node
2905 2011-06-05 19:40:00 <metonymous_> distributed calculations, is all
2906 2011-06-05 19:40:05 <metonymous_> until somone implements that new model
2907 2011-06-05 19:40:08 <sipa> getwork traffic is a lot more than bitcoin traffic
2908 2011-06-05 19:40:18 <metonymous_> yeh, that's likely correct
2909 2011-06-05 19:40:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, its not a question of spam, bitcoin's standard rules actually cut down on that pretty damn well, its a question of "I think txes with fees should get more of an advantage than they do now, thus Im gonna fight for that"
2910 2011-06-05 19:40:38 <metonymous_> those two blocks were 3 minutes apart
2911 2011-06-05 19:40:53 <gmaxwell> Out of the last 14 blocks produced by eligius only two have no txn other than the generate. Both were within a minute of the prior block.
2912 2011-06-05 19:41:06 Mad7Scientist is now known as PlungeProtection
2913 2011-06-05 19:41:07 <metonymous_> that seems justified
2914 2011-06-05 19:41:25 <gmaxwell> ...
2915 2011-06-05 19:41:38 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: pools don't have any more connections they send blocks over than other nodes
2916 2011-06-05 19:41:39 <metonymous_> could a client ignore the max block size
2917 2011-06-05 19:41:45 <sipa> no
2918 2011-06-05 19:41:45 <metonymous_> and still get the bloc accepted?
2919 2011-06-05 19:41:47 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: they do not send blocks to their getwork miners.
2920 2011-06-05 19:41:49 <BlueMatt> I dont *really* blame him for that ideal, but IMHO its not a good idea as it does nothing to solve the "spiraling downward fee" issue
2921 2011-06-05 19:41:50 <metonymous_> is the size checked by other ones?
2922 2011-06-05 19:41:57 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, yaha
2923 2011-06-05 19:42:14 <sipa> what is 'yaha' ?
2924 2011-06-05 19:42:16 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: yaha what?
2925 2011-06-05 19:42:20 <metonymous_> if i was running a pool (which I am) i would conenct to as many nodes aspossible
2926 2011-06-05 19:42:30 <metonymous_> i'm trying to grok the scenario
2927 2011-06-05 19:43:11 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: it doesn't make that much difference, the block people extend is the one with the lowest difficulty, so your find can get there a bit later and still get extended
2928 2011-06-05 19:43:46 <metonymous_> how many nodes are there?
2929 2011-06-05 19:43:48 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: but lets assume they connect to all 2400 visible nodes. What does an extra couple kbytes cost when they find a block? not very much.
2930 2011-06-05 19:43:50 <metonymous_> can it be calculated?
2931 2011-06-05 19:43:57 <sipa> metonymous_: around 20000 or so
2932 2011-06-05 19:44:08 <metonymous_> it basically means "my block wins" ... no?
2933 2011-06-05 19:44:15 <gmaxwell> You can only connect to about ~2400.
2934 2011-06-05 19:44:23 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: no, it's not (much of) a time race.
2935 2011-06-05 19:44:25 <metonymous_> due to firewalls?
2936 2011-06-05 19:44:27 <andrew12> I can count to 2400
2937 2011-06-05 19:44:45 <gmaxwell> Because the network must agree, and the network doesn't have a completely uniform view of time.
2938 2011-06-05 19:44:52 <metonymous_> true
2939 2011-06-05 19:45:01 <metonymous_> but if you spread faster
2940 2011-06-05 19:45:06 <gmaxwell> so the tie breaker on solves is not "when did I get this?" it's who has the lowest value.
2941 2011-06-05 19:45:06 <metonymous_> there has to be a statistical advantage
2942 2011-06-05 19:45:15 <metonymous_> oh
2943 2011-06-05 19:45:22 <metonymous_> i thought it was who got one next
2944 2011-06-05 19:45:25 <gmaxwell> No.
2945 2011-06-05 19:45:27 <andrew12> oh yeah, is there some sort of feed for blocks and transactions similar to the bitcoincharts feed for market data?
2946 2011-06-05 19:45:38 <metonymous_> bitcoinexplorer.com ?
2947 2011-06-05 19:45:43 <gmaxwell> There is a very small advantage, because if you are first you may get extended.
2948 2011-06-05 19:45:50 <BlueMatt> if you dont mind obnoxious color, luke has a chan which does it
2949 2011-06-05 19:45:50 <metonymous_> yeh
2950 2011-06-05 19:45:55 <metonymous_> anyone done the math on that gmaxwell ?
2951 2011-06-05 19:46:00 <andrew12> BlueMatt: I want one that's not on IRC
2952 2011-06-05 19:46:06 <BlueMatt> oh, no idea
2953 2011-06-05 19:46:09 <gmaxwell> It's infinitesmal and depends on to many random factors.
2954 2011-06-05 19:46:12 <edcba> haha http://www.npr.org/2011/06/05/136971766/senators-target-website-that-sells-narcotics
2955 2011-06-05 19:46:12 <andrew12> BlueMatt: I want one I can write a program to print to my terminal immediately
2956 2011-06-05 19:46:15 humana has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2957 2011-06-05 19:46:23 <metonymous_> andrew12, write one?
2958 2011-06-05 19:46:25 <edcba> closing .onion site taking payments in bitcoins :)
2959 2011-06-05 19:46:28 <metonymous_> i'll write you one for 20 BTC
2960 2011-06-05 19:46:47 <andrew12> I'll write one if you give me 20 BTC ;)
2961 2011-06-05 19:46:52 <andrew12> brb
2962 2011-06-05 19:46:55 <metonymous_> lol
2963 2011-06-05 19:47:36 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: eligius has only had one orphan block ever, btcguild has only had 0.6% orphans It's such an uncommon event that even a fairly good improvement wouldn't matter much.
2964 2011-06-05 19:47:52 <metonymous_> is the "official" bitcoin leadership interested in a standalone getwork pool-server implementation
2965 2011-06-05 19:47:59 <gmaxwell> Morover I offered luke-jr a way that would reduce orphans a fair amount and he wasn't interested.
2966 2011-06-05 19:48:06 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: there is no bitcoin leadership
2967 2011-06-05 19:48:19 <metonymous_> people with bitcoin.org access
2968 2011-06-05 19:48:23 <gmaxwell> s/Morover/Moreover/
2969 2011-06-05 19:48:29 <metonymous_> people who could publish a link on front page
2970 2011-06-05 19:48:39 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: what was that method?
2971 2011-06-05 19:48:43 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: why would a pool server be on the front page?
2972 2011-06-05 19:48:45 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: you mean would they publish a server on the homepage? no
2973 2011-06-05 19:48:51 <metonymous_> because deepbit sucks balls
2974 2011-06-05 19:48:52 <BlueMatt> and there is already pushpoold
2975 2011-06-05 19:49:00 <BlueMatt> how so?
2976 2011-06-05 19:49:15 <metonymous_> because groups of 10 or so people want to run pools
2977 2011-06-05 19:49:20 <metonymous_> and it's stupidly hard to do it
2978 2011-06-05 19:49:28 <metonymous_> u basically need a linux admin
2979 2011-06-05 19:49:29 <BlueMatt> so write a good guide for pushpoold
2980 2011-06-05 19:49:44 <metonymous_> no, i've already developed the pool server
2981 2011-06-05 19:49:51 <BlueMatt> ok then post it
2982 2011-06-05 19:49:52 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so in terms of maximal expectation—  if you announce a block but then hear of a block that orphans yours (higher effective difficulty) you should continue to mine to extend the one you just announced.
2983 2011-06-05 19:49:59 <metonymous_> i just need incentive to make it OSS rather than charge
2984 2011-06-05 19:50:01 <BlueMatt> in a convenient to install form
2985 2011-06-05 19:50:05 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: until you hear that the other one has been extended by someone else.
2986 2011-06-05 19:50:06 <BlueMatt> lol
2987 2011-06-05 19:50:14 <BlueMatt> there is already pushpoold
2988 2011-06-05 19:50:19 <metonymous_> u keep saying that
2989 2011-06-05 19:50:33 <BlueMatt> my point this time is different
2990 2011-06-05 19:50:41 <metonymous_> how much is your time worth
2991 2011-06-05 19:50:43 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: if you win the race to extend that block, you'll get 100btc, if you don't, oh well, you continue to extend the new longest chain.
2992 2011-06-05 19:50:43 <BlueMatt> first it was, why would we post one server and not another
2993 2011-06-05 19:50:50 <metonymous_> pushpoold is time consuming
2994 2011-06-05 19:50:51 <BlueMatt> now its, we already have one, why pay for another?
2995 2011-06-05 19:50:52 <metonymous_> even for smart devs
2996 2011-06-05 19:51:04 <metonymous_> people are paying 199 BTC for the one on the forums
2997 2011-06-05 19:51:12 <metonymous_> and that's just a front-end
2998 2011-06-05 19:51:16 <BlueMatt> then post yours and sell it
2999 2011-06-05 19:51:16 <metonymous_> there is demand
3000 2011-06-05 19:51:18 <ArtForzZz> pushpoold is a bit of a boondoggle, but it's not *that* hard to set up
3001 2011-06-05 19:51:26 <ArtForzZz> now, tuning it for > 500Gh/s... fun!
3002 2011-06-05 19:51:41 <metonymous_> that's just it... i wished someone could give me a reason to FOSS
3003 2011-06-05 19:51:43 <midnightmagic> "higher effective difficulty"? do you mean on the cusp of a retarget?
3004 2011-06-05 19:51:53 <metonymous_> oooh
3005 2011-06-05 19:51:54 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: post on the forum and ask
3006 2011-06-05 19:52:00 <metonymous_> good idea
3007 2011-06-05 19:52:05 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: no no just a lower value.
3008 2011-06-05 19:52:30 <metonymous_> has anyone tried to implement that proposed "solution" to getwork?
3009 2011-06-05 19:52:31 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: ah, so you're not throwing out work already done.
3010 2011-06-05 19:52:41 <ArtForzZz> metonymous_: what solution?
3011 2011-06-05 19:52:54 <metonymous_> where's the link... that the clients use a local bitcoin
3012 2011-06-05 19:52:58 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: that is, you *accept* any solutions to blocks done on either chain, right?
3013 2011-06-05 19:52:59 <metonymous_> and get a signed something from the server
3014 2011-06-05 19:52:59 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Normally you'll switch to extending the block you heard over the network if the hash has a lower value than the one you just announced... don't do that if you have a last block.
3015 2011-06-05 19:53:00 * roconnor implements his block chain using a priority search queue.
3016 2011-06-05 19:53:03 <ArtForzZz> whats the point?
3017 2011-06-05 19:53:07 <metonymous_> minting their own thing
3018 2011-06-05 19:53:09 <metonymous_> distributed coin minting
3019 2011-06-05 19:53:12 <ArtForzZz> just use LP + x-roll-ntime
3020 2011-06-05 19:53:16 <metonymous_> each miner has its own ruleset
3021 2011-06-05 19:53:17 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: yes. and only switch when the other gets one ahead.
3022 2011-06-05 19:53:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: once you have >50% hash power this algorithim makes you do the takeover attack automatically ::shrugs:: but thats not the point of it.
3023 2011-06-05 19:53:54 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: it wouldn't matter which block you send out to new getworks, you could work on both or fade from one to the other..
3024 2011-06-05 19:54:02 edgarallanpoe has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3025 2011-06-05 19:54:20 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: except, I guess txn fees work in your favour if your own block wins.
3026 2011-06-05 19:54:26 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you don't need to fade really. until the other chain is 1 ahead of you, your expectation is maximized by staying on yours.
3027 2011-06-05 19:54:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: i agree with your idea, it's a better way of doing it.
3028 2011-06-05 19:54:57 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: but thats what everyone is doing already
3029 2011-06-05 19:55:07 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: It's not what bitcoind does.
3030 2011-06-05 19:55:08 <metonymous_> forum news lol "News: Version 0.3.21 is now available."
3031 2011-06-05 19:55:13 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: it is
3032 2011-06-05 19:55:18 <ArtForzZz> read the code
3033 2011-06-05 19:55:29 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: if you find block X and someone gives you a block X with a lower value, you'll switch right away.
3034 2011-06-05 19:55:33 <ArtForzZz> when you mined a block, and see another block from the network at the same height, you stay on your block
3035 2011-06-05 19:55:38 <ArtForzZz> what lower value?
3036 2011-06-05 19:55:42 <ArtForzZz> WTF is a lower value?
3037 2011-06-05 19:55:44 <midnightmagic> lol except, i guess, if we're all already doing it. :)
3038 2011-06-05 19:55:45 <gmaxwell> really? I totally did not see that.
3039 2011-06-05 19:55:52 <gmaxwell> And I did look.
3040 2011-06-05 19:56:02 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: lower hash (higher 'effective' difficulty)
3041 2011-06-05 19:56:05 <ArtForzZz> nope
3042 2011-06-05 19:56:09 <ArtForzZz> we don't compare hashes
3043 2011-06-05 19:56:09 _Netsniper_ has joined
3044 2011-06-05 19:56:12 <ArtForzZz> we only compare nbits
3045 2011-06-05 19:56:20 <sipa> what counts for 'score' of a block is its difficulty
3046 2011-06-05 19:56:23 <sipa> not how well it beat it
3047 2011-06-05 19:56:28 <ArtForzZz> yep
3048 2011-06-05 19:56:39 <ArtForzZz> so by definition both blocks have the same difficulty
3049 2011-06-05 19:56:43 <sipa> and rightfully so
3050 2011-06-05 19:56:45 <andrew12> if hash < target then block is a winner
3051 2011-06-05 19:56:46 <ArtForzZz> and in that case... first seen block wins
3052 2011-06-05 19:56:51 <ArtForzZz> which... is your won
3053 2011-06-05 19:56:52 <ArtForzZz> *own
3054 2011-06-05 19:57:16 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3055 2011-06-05 19:57:39 _Netsniper_ has quit (Client Quit)
3056 2011-06-05 19:58:08 <andrew12> < ArtForzZz> when you mined a block, and see another block from the network at the same height, you stay on your block
3057 2011-06-05 19:58:20 <andrew12> what if the other block turns out to be accepted before yours is?
3058 2011-06-05 19:58:22  has quit (Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-240-194-142.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3059 2011-06-05 19:58:26 <ArtForzZz> what?
3060 2011-06-05 19:58:35 <metonymous_> u switch branches
3061 2011-06-05 19:58:35 <ArtForzZz> then you didnt mine a block
3062 2011-06-05 19:58:44 <metonymous_> orphaned!
3063 2011-06-05 19:58:53 <andrew12> i see
3064 2011-06-05 19:58:55 <midnightmagic> andrew12: it doesn't matter, you switch to the new head and start mining again frm there. you lose nothing.
3065 2011-06-05 19:59:04 opello has joined
3066 2011-06-05 19:59:12 <andrew12> midnightmagic: you don't gain anything either :(
3067 2011-06-05 19:59:13 <andrew12> :p
3068 2011-06-05 19:59:14 <midnightmagic> well..  except your tx fees i guess..
3069 2011-06-05 19:59:26 <midnightmagic> you do, you *could* gain your old block's tx fees.
3070 2011-06-05 19:59:45 <andrew12> no
3071 2011-06-05 19:59:49 <midnightmagic> if you beat everyone to the punch, or some of your peers accept your block first and work on it.
3072 2011-06-05 19:59:52 <andrew12> because the other block would have all the other transactions and the fees
3073 2011-06-05 20:00:05 <metonymous_> double spend
3074 2011-06-05 20:00:06 <andrew12> er
3075 2011-06-05 20:00:09 <andrew12> the same transactions
3076 2011-06-05 20:00:13 <metonymous_> u could mine faster, and try and double block them!
3077 2011-06-05 20:00:23 <andrew12> hehe
3078 2011-06-05 20:00:23 <metonymous_> DDOS their miners
3079 2011-06-05 20:00:31 <andrew12> suddenly drop 200 blocks on the network, pre-mined
3080 2011-06-05 20:00:32 opello has left ()
3081 2011-06-05 20:00:33 <ZOP> ok so... 0.3.21 won't let you spend coin sent on generate (EG from Eligius' pool?)
3082 2011-06-05 20:00:44 <midnightmagic> no, if you solve your own block, and someone else solves a block right after, and then you solve the next block, you get tx fees from the fork and you make *your* fork canonical.
3083 2011-06-05 20:00:59 <andrew12> canonical?
3084 2011-06-05 20:01:06 <metonymous_> then they solve the next!
3085 2011-06-05 20:01:07 <midnightmagic> yeah, the network switches to yours.
3086 2011-06-05 20:01:11 <andrew12> oh
3087 2011-06-05 20:01:13 <metonymous_> "one true source" = canonical
3088 2011-06-05 20:01:14 <midnightmagic> because you won the race.
3089 2011-06-05 20:01:23 <metonymous_> the race isn't over til the other miner quits!
3090 2011-06-05 20:01:29 <andrew12> haha
3091 2011-06-05 20:01:33 <metonymous_> it's just an unlikely win
3092 2011-06-05 20:01:42 <midnightmagic> which..  these days is super unlikely,but it's still a small chance.
3093 2011-06-05 20:01:51 <metonymous_> if you took down DeepBit
3094 2011-06-05 20:01:56 dosmarder has left ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
3095 2011-06-05 20:03:14 <metonymous_> how many blocks left till difficulty hike?
3096 2011-06-05 20:03:15 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: indeed, I misunderstood the GetBlockWork implementation.
3097 2011-06-05 20:03:23 <andrew12> ;;bc,timetonext
3098 2011-06-05 20:03:23 <gribble> 22 hours, 5 minutes, and 50 seconds
3099 2011-06-05 20:03:29 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
3100 2011-06-05 20:03:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 128838 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 185 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 22 hours, 5 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 550253.65864595
3101 2011-06-05 20:03:36 <gmaxwell> 12:52 < ZOP> ok so... 0.3.21 won't let you spend coin sent on generate (EG from Eligius' pool?)
3102 2011-06-05 20:03:39 <metonymous_> woah
3103 2011-06-05 20:03:40 <gmaxwell> Sure it will.
3104 2011-06-05 20:03:40 <metonymous_> 1 daty
3105 2011-06-05 20:04:29 <gmaxwell> ZOP: you need to wait for the generate txn to mature.
3106 2011-06-05 20:05:04 <metonymous_> someone should make a bitcoin shower, that randomly makes transactions with 0 output, 100% fee
3107 2011-06-05 20:05:07 <metonymous_> make it a lottery
3108 2011-06-05 20:05:11 <metonymous_> to promote bitcoin mining :D
3109 2011-06-05 20:05:12 sethsethseth___ has joined
3110 2011-06-05 20:05:21 <metonymous_> but put 0 per KB so eligius doesn't take it :D
3111 2011-06-05 20:05:23 <metonymous_> hehehe
3112 2011-06-05 20:06:43 <ZOP> gmaxwell: it's 162 confirmations.
3113 2011-06-05 20:06:45 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3114 2011-06-05 20:06:59 <gmaxwell> ZOP: then you should be able to spend it fine.
3115 2011-06-05 20:07:04 <ZOP> Nope
3116 2011-06-05 20:07:05 Blitzboom has joined
3117 2011-06-05 20:07:05 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
3118 2011-06-05 20:07:05 Blitzboom has joined
3119 2011-06-05 20:07:05 <ZOP> 0 balance
3120 2011-06-05 20:07:22 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3121 2011-06-05 20:07:24 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: "but put 0 per KB"  ... what does that mean? it should be infinite in size?
3122 2011-06-05 20:07:33 <ZOP> No account associated, noa ddress associated, and not credited to my balance.
3123 2011-06-05 20:07:37 sethsethseth____ has joined
3124 2011-06-05 20:07:38 mmoya has joined
3125 2011-06-05 20:07:38 <metonymous_> 0 per kb fee
3126 2011-06-05 20:07:40 <gmaxwell> ZOP: do you actually see it in the transaction list?
3127 2011-06-05 20:07:41 <metonymous_> no fee
3128 2011-06-05 20:07:46 <metonymous_> no per kb fee
3129 2011-06-05 20:07:48 <metonymous_> base fe
3130 2011-06-05 20:07:49 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: if it has no outputs its all fee.
3131 2011-06-05 20:08:03 <metonymous_> i ... see now
3132 2011-06-05 20:08:11 <metonymous_> well, do that
3133 2011-06-05 20:08:17 <metonymous_> someone give away lots of bitcoin
3134 2011-06-05 20:08:20 stellan0r has joined
3135 2011-06-05 20:08:22 <metonymous_> randomly
3136 2011-06-05 20:08:39 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: why not make an open txn which no one needs a key to redeem?
3137 2011-06-05 20:08:42 <ZOP> gmaxwell: yup.
3138 2011-06-05 20:08:51 <metonymous_> tyeah
3139 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>     {
3140 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>         "account" : "",
3141 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>         "category" : "generate",
3142 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>         "amount" : 1.06667743,
3143 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>         "confirmations" : 163,
3144 2011-06-05 20:08:52 <ZOP>         "txid" : "12822d8f85a90f460f20f5f904ccd5fa2ad03cac67b939b82a626fb8d7f336c0",
3145 2011-06-05 20:08:53 <ZOP>         "time" : 1307235689
3146 2011-06-05 20:08:53 <ZOP>     },
3147 2011-06-05 20:08:58 <phantomcircuit> dude
3148 2011-06-05 20:09:01 <ZOP> ack sorry meany to drop that to pastebin
3149 2011-06-05 20:09:01 <metonymous_> can't do that with client tho no?
3150 2011-06-05 20:09:03 <gmaxwell> ZOP: "works for me" and getbalance shows nothing?
3151 2011-06-05 20:09:15 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: nope. All the more fun.
3152 2011-06-05 20:09:29 <metonymous_> i'll make a back door in the client
3153 2011-06-05 20:09:32 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: how long would it take for someone to notice it and hackup a client to redeem it?
3154 2011-06-05 20:09:34 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3155 2011-06-05 20:09:35 <metonymous_> that i send a packet
3156 2011-06-05 20:09:40 <metonymous_> and it dumps all the money in the network
3157 2011-06-05 20:09:49 <ZOP> No, getbalance hasn't incremented, neither does listaccounts.
3158 2011-06-05 20:09:52 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, don't u need to mine the next block?
3159 2011-06-05 20:10:02 <metonymous_> wait, no public key of recipient
3160 2011-06-05 20:10:09 <metonymous_> how does that ork :\
3161 2011-06-05 20:10:11 <gmaxwell> ZOP: generate transactions don't show up under accounts.
3162 2011-06-05 20:10:30 <gmaxwell> ZOP: but they do show up in the global balance. I suspect you're miscounting.
3163 2011-06-05 20:10:49 <metonymous_> if i wanted a simple gentle intro to SHA256 implementations...
3164 2011-06-05 20:10:50 <BlueMatt> lol, rearrange "Satoshi Nakamoto" to "A Hook to Satanism"
3165 2011-06-05 20:10:52 <metonymous_> whats a good place to look
3166 2011-06-05 20:10:53 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: write a txn with no checksig. Just a script that returns true.
3167 2011-06-05 20:11:07 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, can anyone gank it?
3168 2011-06-05 20:11:16 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: yes.
3169 2011-06-05 20:11:23 <metonymous_> what if u spammed hte network with them
3170 2011-06-05 20:11:33 <metonymous_> like a rat race
3171 2011-06-05 20:11:39 <metonymous_> 52 pick up
3172 2011-06-05 20:11:45 <gmaxwell> Then anyone could gank them. It would be like a bank vault exploding.
3173 2011-06-05 20:12:11 <gmaxwell> except the fastest to write the gank code would probably get them all. ;)
3174 2011-06-05 20:12:33 <metonymous_> do they get to re-write the output amount also?
3175 2011-06-05 20:12:34 zamgo has joined
3176 2011-06-05 20:12:41 <ZOP> No, checked that earlier.  I guess I'll do more digging. see what is going on.
3177 2011-06-05 20:13:05 <gmaxwell> ZOP: I don't know what to say other than no one else is reporting this.
3178 2011-06-05 20:13:16 <zamgo> hi folks.   Preview release of Bitcoin Webskin - an open source PHP web interface to bitcoind     https://github.com/zamgo/bitcoin-webskin
3179 2011-06-05 20:13:26 <gmaxwell> ZOP: one or two of the webwallet services have had issues because they don't show up under accounts, though.
3180 2011-06-05 20:13:31 <midnightmagic> fascinating. there's a guy who accepts bitcoins to steal things for you
3181 2011-06-05 20:13:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: like.. what kind of things?
3182 2011-06-05 20:14:12 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Will he accept bitcoins to steal the private key for block 0?
3183 2011-06-05 20:14:38 <ZOP> hmm
3184 2011-06-05 20:15:07 <midnightmagic> like stuff from stores.
3185 2011-06-05 20:15:19 <midnightmagic> he operates in *.onion
3186 2011-06-05 20:15:58 <midnightmagic> he even takes requests for new stores he's never been in
3187 2011-06-05 20:17:33 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3188 2011-06-05 20:20:39 <metonymous_> if a processor is 64 bit, 300 Mhz, can it do 600 32bit instructions per clock?
3189 2011-06-05 20:20:46 <BlueMatt> no
3190 2011-06-05 20:21:10 <metonymous_> because there's no way of calling it to do it, right?
3191 2011-06-05 20:21:15 <BlueMatt> no
3192 2011-06-05 20:21:21 <metonymous_> ...
3193 2011-06-05 20:21:26 <metonymous_> why?
3194 2011-06-05 20:21:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: is it possible to have your gitian0.3.22 branch with just clone of master + some fixes?
3195 2011-06-05 20:21:33 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3196 2011-06-05 20:21:39 <sipa> actually, i can just do a diff
3197 2011-06-05 20:21:52 <BlueMatt> it should just be the 3 files in contrib
3198 2011-06-05 20:22:00 <BlueMatt> the rest are just out-of-date master
3199 2011-06-05 20:22:02 <BlueMatt> which dont matter
3200 2011-06-05 20:22:18 <sipa> i know what it should, and i trust you, but to put my signature on it, i prefer to be able to see it's only that :)
3201 2011-06-05 20:22:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: gitian always downloads from master
3202 2011-06-05 20:22:45 <BlueMatt> it doesnt download from that branch, only that file
3203 2011-06-05 20:22:57 <ZOP> metonymous_: they dont' work like that.  a 64 bit processor has 64 bit wide registers/data paths.
3204 2011-06-05 20:23:03 <ZOP> metonymous_: well...x86 doesn't.
3205 2011-06-05 20:23:12 iocor has joined
3206 2011-06-05 20:23:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh, good
3207 2011-06-05 20:23:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: from my branch "- "url": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git""
3208 2011-06-05 20:23:20 eoss has joined
3209 2011-06-05 20:23:20 <iocor> are there any java bitcoin miners?
3210 2011-06-05 20:23:24 <ZOP> metonymous_: but only one instruction unit.
3211 2011-06-05 20:23:27 <metonymous_> i know it sounds stupid, but i've been eyeing my PS2 since day one, considering porting the miner to it... :
3212 2011-06-05 20:23:36 <sipa> iocor: DiabloMiner
3213 2011-06-05 20:23:40 <BlueMatt> oh god, a ps3 would be slow enough, a ps2...
3214 2011-06-05 20:23:47 <metonymous_> ps2 has vector processors
3215 2011-06-05 20:23:48 <iocor> sipa, isn't that an opencl miner?
3216 2011-06-05 20:23:52 <sipa> iocor: yes
3217 2011-06-05 20:23:53 <iocor> sipa, as opposed to a java miner
3218 2011-06-05 20:23:57 <BlueMatt> but would still be slow as all hell
3219 2011-06-05 20:23:58 <ZOP> A PS2 i dont' think could even make any participating in a pool heh.
3220 2011-06-05 20:23:58 <iocor> I mean, an on cpu java miner
3221 2011-06-05 20:24:05 <sipa> iocor: why the hell would you want that?
3222 2011-06-05 20:24:15 <midnightmagic> hotspot!
3223 2011-06-05 20:24:22 <sipa> the core mining loop should be written in C or assembly
3224 2011-06-05 20:24:33 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
3225 2011-06-05 20:24:34 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":18.998,"low":16.2,"vol":27519,"buy":16.5001,"sell":16.7849,"last":16.5001}}
3226 2011-06-05 20:24:36 <BlueMatt> assembly being several times faster than c
3227 2011-06-05 20:24:37 Netsniper has joined
3228 2011-06-05 20:24:42 <ZOP> iocor: even the PS3 w/ the SPEs barely makes enough speed to clear what a modern desktop CPU can do.
3229 2011-06-05 20:24:54 <iocor> ok
3230 2011-06-05 20:25:04 <ZOP> heck IDK if it even does that much.  the ps2 is...orders of magnitude slower than the PS3 heh :)
3231 2011-06-05 20:25:13 <sipa> metonymous_: a pentium 2 is also a vector processor!
3232 2011-06-05 20:25:31 <metonymous_> parallel
3233 2011-06-05 20:26:07 <ZOP> gmaxwell: and yer right, i'm stupid, there was a different tx that i sent to a different wallet making my math off.
3234 2011-06-05 20:26:11 <metonymous_> 150Hz gpu with 1024 bit IO
3235 2011-06-05 20:26:32 <metonymous_> meh, i don't know enough to do the assembly it'd need
3236 2011-06-05 20:26:34 <sipa> 150Hz, nice!
3237 2011-06-05 20:26:47 <metonymous_> 300Mhz cpu also
3238 2011-06-05 20:26:54 <metonymous_> it's a graphics card
3239 2011-06-05 20:26:55 <metonymous_> not a cpu
3240 2011-06-05 20:26:58 <metonymous_> the whole machine
3241 2011-06-05 20:26:59 <BlueMatt> that will get you...1hash/sec...maybe
3242 2011-06-05 20:27:25 <BlueMatt> ps2 would be equivalent to a cpuminer, a slow one
3243 2011-06-05 20:27:40 <luke-jr> [15:27:11] <BlueMatt> eligius rules are the stupidest thing Ive ever seen…who the fuck wants to send txes that *can* only be confirmed by eligius
3244 2011-06-05 20:27:45 stellan0r has left ()
3245 2011-06-05 20:27:57 <metonymous_> thems fightin words
3246 2011-06-05 20:27:59 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's not an Eligius rule, it's just a branch of wxBitcoin/d code
3247 2011-06-05 20:28:13 <BlueMatt> ok...well that branch are the stupidest thing Ive ever heard
3248 2011-06-05 20:28:22 <metonymous_> that branch is
3249 2011-06-05 20:28:30 <BlueMatt> copy/paste
3250 2011-06-05 20:28:42 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3251 2011-06-05 20:28:47  has joined
3252 2011-06-05 20:29:34 <diki> how much does the stable release differ from rc6?
3253 2011-06-05 20:29:44 <diki> cause i merged bitcoin with jgarzik's
3254 2011-06-05 20:29:55 <diki> to get some extra functionality
3255 2011-06-05 20:30:06 <BlueMatt> by a dns fix and diff fix
3256 2011-06-05 20:30:25 <luke-jr> [15:30:38] <metonymous_> because no-one pays it
3257 2011-06-05 20:30:42 <metonymous_> yeah
3258 2011-06-05 20:30:49 <luke-jr> metonymous_: most of Eligius blocks contain fees *far more* than Eligius requires, since Eligius fees are generally smaller than everyone else
3259 2011-06-05 20:30:51 <metonymous_> but at the moment, why should they?
3260 2011-06-05 20:30:58 RAM2012 has joined
3261 2011-06-05 20:31:02 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds)
3262 2011-06-05 20:31:19 <metonymous_> i like eligius
3263 2011-06-05 20:31:21 <metonymous_> and it's rules
3264 2011-06-05 20:31:26 <metonymous_> i don't like the core bitcoin client
3265 2011-06-05 20:31:36 iocor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3266 2011-06-05 20:31:50 <BlueMatt> I understand eligius' rules push of that ideological goal, but I disagree
3267 2011-06-05 20:32:01 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: then you dont understand the spam issue
3268 2011-06-05 20:32:12 <metonymous_> what spam issue
3269 2011-06-05 20:32:22 <metonymous_> the one in the future?
3270 2011-06-05 20:32:22 * BlueMatt facepalms
3271 2011-06-05 20:32:30 <BlueMatt> scrollback?
3272 2011-06-05 20:32:44 <metonymous_> how far
3273 2011-06-05 20:32:52 <lyspooner> can someone get me to -addnode from the cmd prompt in windows
3274 2011-06-05 20:32:55 <BlueMatt> to the spot where luke is currently quoting from
3275 2011-06-05 20:33:03 <metonymous_> ok
3276 2011-06-05 20:33:12 <metonymous_> bitcoind -addnode=10.1.1.1
3277 2011-06-05 20:33:14 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: drag bitcoin exe onto cmd window, space, -addnode=address
3278 2011-06-05 20:33:26 <luke-jr> [15:35:23] <gmaxwell> metonymous_: it doesn't make that much difference, the block people extend is the one with the lowest difficulty, so your find can get there a bit later and still get extended
3279 2011-06-05 20:33:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the next-block must always have the same difficulty or it will be rejected. it IS a time race
3280 2011-06-05 20:33:44 <metonymous_> yeh, i didn't know that
3281 2011-06-05 20:33:50 <metonymous_> yeh, i knew th time
3282 2011-06-05 20:33:57 <metonymous_> i hink :\
3283 2011-06-05 20:34:03 <luke-jr> [15:40:11] <gmaxwell> Morover I offered luke-jr a way that would reduce orphans a fair amount and he wasn't interested.
3284 2011-06-05 20:34:24 <luke-jr> rather, I pointed it out it helped so little, it wasn't worth the time to write it, and patches are welcome :p
3285 2011-06-05 20:34:32 <metonymous_> lyspooner, start run cmd, "C:\Program Files\Bitcoin\daemon\bitcoind.exe" -addnode=FOO -server -daemon
3286 2011-06-05 20:34:54 <BlueMatt> mine are easier
3287 2011-06-05 20:34:57 <metonymous_> mine is
3288 2011-06-05 20:35:06 <BlueMatt> mine you have to type half the chars
3289 2011-06-05 20:35:06 <metonymous_> u gui person u
3290 2011-06-05 20:35:14 <metonymous_> ever heard of TAB?
3291 2011-06-05 20:35:22 <BlueMatt> still have to type a ton more
3292 2011-06-05 20:35:30 <metonymous_> stick to ur mouse
3293 2011-06-05 20:35:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: metonymous_: I can't say I disagree (about the eligius_sendonly branch being kinda stupid), but I was asked for it and it helps me :P
3294 2011-06-05 20:35:36 <BlueMatt> not that I ever use gui anyway...
3295 2011-06-05 20:35:46 <metonymous_> right... u drag with keyboard
3296 2011-06-05 20:35:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: who the hell asked
3297 2011-06-05 20:36:04 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: no, I just assume windows users expect a gui option
3298 2011-06-05 20:36:07 <lyspooner> BlueMatt, thanks. metonymous, i liked bluematt's way better
3299 2011-06-05 20:36:16 <lyspooner> thank you both
3300 2011-06-05 20:36:20 <BlueMatt> personally, I use cli
3301 2011-06-05 20:36:24 <metonymous_> create shortcut to desktop
3302 2011-06-05 20:36:31 <metonymous_> is the superior version of bluematt's
3303 2011-06-05 20:36:32 <sipa> what is the sendonly branch?
3304 2011-06-05 20:36:32 <BlueMatt> which takes more clicks ;)
3305 2011-06-05 20:36:46 <metonymous_> right click drag unselect create shortcut douche
3306 2011-06-05 20:36:53 <metonymous_> command promt takes keystrokes
3307 2011-06-05 20:36:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: special tx which sends fee to eligius and makes non-standard so only eligius will get your fee + block your tx
3308 2011-06-05 20:37:13 <metonymous_> sorry for namecalling
3309 2011-06-05 20:37:16 <metonymous_> unjustified
3310 2011-06-05 20:37:22 <BlueMatt> metonymous_: I won in any case :)
3311 2011-06-05 20:37:43 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I forget. someone who said they wanted it to "support the pool" rather than send donations
3312 2011-06-05 20:37:58 <metonymous_> i remembe those days
3313 2011-06-05 20:38:12 <BlueMatt> that guy is the biggest dumbass Ive ever heard...but whatever
3314 2011-06-05 20:38:28 <luke-jr> what jerk created the "Alternative clients" subforum on the forums?
3315 2011-06-05 20:38:42 <BlueMatt> I want to see more separation on dev forum
3316 2011-06-05 20:38:55 <BlueMatt> I want an official client subforum
3317 2011-06-05 20:39:04 <kika_> i think someone needs to publsih the dev official pubkeys on the mainchain just incase
3318 2011-06-05 20:39:07 <luke-jr> separation is fine, but not by giving wxBitcoin/d more importance
3319 2011-06-05 20:39:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt there is no official
3320 2011-06-05 20:39:22 <BlueMatt> ok, wxBitcoin/mainline bitcoin whatever you want to call it
3321 2011-06-05 20:39:36 <metonymous_> where happened the benevolent dictator
3322 2011-06-05 20:39:41 <metonymous_> hello?
3323 2011-06-05 20:39:55 <sipa> kika_: i don't know what you mean?
3324 2011-06-05 20:39:57 <luke-jr> if we're separating, the clients (including wxBitcoin/d) should each get a separate subforum
3325 2011-06-05 20:40:28 <metonymous_> agreed
3326 2011-06-05 20:40:31 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: and yet total discussion of original client far eclipses that of spesmilo/bitcoinj/etc
3327 2011-06-05 20:40:33 <diki> i read on a natie forum the comments about this anime, and a mod said a bit more extreme things about your group
3328 2011-06-05 20:40:36 <gjs278> luke-jr's dream of splitting the clients is coming true
3329 2011-06-05 20:40:39 <diki> seems a lot of people realised what i did
3330 2011-06-05 20:40:39 <kika_> sipa: right now, if someone hacks github and makes people to download fake bitcoin source code, including fake harcoded blocks ( the check if the main chain is valid )
3331 2011-06-05 20:40:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: mainly because of the lack of separation
3332 2011-06-05 20:40:47 * diki made a mistake
3333 2011-06-05 20:40:51 * diki wrong server
3334 2011-06-05 20:40:55 <metonymous_> MVC
3335 2011-06-05 20:41:05 <gjs278> this program has no mbc
3336 2011-06-05 20:41:06 <lyspooner> My client can't find other nodes, and can't maintain a connection to a fallback node for more than a few seconds.  help!
3337 2011-06-05 20:41:07 <gjs278> mvc
3338 2011-06-05 20:41:10 <gjs278> because there is no library
3339 2011-06-05 20:41:10 <kika_> someone can easly re-create the whole mainchain from the generis block and distribute the fake bitcoin sources to everyone to make them belive they use the new mainchain
3340 2011-06-05 20:41:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because it's all mixed together, people use the original forum post as itself a subforum
3341 2011-06-05 20:41:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: just look at the Eligius thread
3342 2011-06-05 20:41:41 <BlueMatt> ok whatever...it doesnt matter how you do it just separate more
3343 2011-06-05 20:41:53 <kika_> sipa: i think the onnly way you have to prevent people to distribute fake bitcoin source code is by including the developers public key on the same mainchain
3344 2011-06-05 20:43:01 octarine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3345 2011-06-05 20:45:00 <kika_> sipa: does make sense what im trying to say ?
3346 2011-06-05 20:45:08 lebish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3347 2011-06-05 20:45:36 nevezen has left ()
3348 2011-06-05 20:45:56 <sipa> kika_: and how will you know the developers public key you see is actually theirs?
3349 2011-06-05 20:46:14 <metonymous_> web of trust
3350 2011-06-05 20:46:17 lebish has joined
3351 2011-06-05 20:46:33 <kika_> sipa: well i just think that github can just get hacked as sourceforge did a time ago
3352 2011-06-05 20:46:39 lebish is now known as zz_lebish
3353 2011-06-05 20:46:46 <sipa> kika_: so?
3354 2011-06-05 20:47:05 <sipa> if people hack github and changes the sourcecode, our git clients will notice
3355 2011-06-05 20:47:10 octarine has joined
3356 2011-06-05 20:47:55 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rba931073cfaa gentoo/net-p2p/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}-0.3.22 http://tinyurl.com/69tfg8r
3357 2011-06-05 20:47:55 zz_lebish is now known as lebish
3358 2011-06-05 20:47:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: gitian build started
3359 2011-06-05 20:48:09 <kika_> sipa:ok i dont know, just an idea :P
3360 2011-06-05 20:48:34 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3361 2011-06-05 20:48:37 <kika_> sipa: right now i think you guys are giving too much power to github
3362 2011-06-05 20:48:45 tonik has joined
3363 2011-06-05 20:49:22 <sipa> kika_: the nice thing about git is that it doesn't matter where the code is hosted
3364 2011-06-05 20:49:33 <sipa> if the code is changed, so do the commit id's
3365 2011-06-05 20:49:46 <metonymous_> push -f
3366 2011-06-05 20:50:04 <sipa> yes, and we will see 'forced updated'
3367 2011-06-05 20:50:19 <metonymous_> and scary music will play!
3368 2011-06-05 20:50:24 <sipa> indeed
3369 2011-06-05 20:50:25 <metonymous_> u should always git fetch first anyway
3370 2011-06-05 20:50:35 <metonymous_> then git log the branch
3371 2011-06-05 20:50:40 <metonymous_> git diff
3372 2011-06-05 20:50:42 <metonymous_> blah blah
3373 2011-06-05 20:50:53 m00p has joined
3374 2011-06-05 20:51:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I don't have the access to the forums to separate it sanely
3375 2011-06-05 20:51:51 larsivi has joined
3376 2011-06-05 20:51:58 <luke-jr> [16:39:17] <sipa> if people hack github and changes the sourcecode, our git clients will notice
3377 2011-06-05 20:52:00 <luke-jr> sipa: they would
3378 2011-06-05 20:52:02 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3379 2011-06-05 20:52:26 <luke-jr> err, I read that wrong nm
3380 2011-06-05 20:52:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: and good thing you dont, or you would go around editing people's posts who dont like tonal and banning them as bigots ;P
3381 2011-06-05 20:52:42 <luke-jr> so who does/
3382 2011-06-05 20:53:03 <BlueMatt> theymos, gavin, others, not sure who
3383 2011-06-05 20:53:32 Astrohacker has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3384 2011-06-05 20:56:05 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3385 2011-06-05 20:56:30 PlungeProtection is now known as Mad7Scientist
3386 2011-06-05 20:56:30 johnnympereira5 has joined
3387 2011-06-05 20:57:11 johnnympereira5 has quit (Client Quit)
3388 2011-06-05 21:04:07 <Matson> what is the format for bitcoin addresses?  I am guessing they are all the same length, correct?
3389 2011-06-05 21:04:22 <sipa> no
3390 2011-06-05 21:05:04 <sipa> they are a custom base58 encoding of a 200-bit number, consisting of 160 bits of the public key's hash, 8 bits version code, and 32 bit checksum
3391 2011-06-05 21:05:08 <Matson> ok, a better palce to start then is what *is* it
3392 2011-06-05 21:05:38 <Matson> base58?
3393 2011-06-05 21:05:40 <Matson> ok
3394 2011-06-05 21:06:00 <Matson> has someone posted some code to decode them?
3395 2011-06-05 21:06:03 octarine has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3396 2011-06-05 21:06:10 <sipa> it's in the source
3397 2011-06-05 21:06:28 <sipa> but decoding is rarely useful - checking whether they are valid is something else
3398 2011-06-05 21:06:30 <Matson> script would be nice, googling  python,ruby,perl
3399 2011-06-05 21:06:52 <Matson> well, yes, the validation part is the interesting piece
3400 2011-06-05 21:07:06 <sipa> there are different implementations for checking
3401 2011-06-05 21:07:34 <Matson> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1026.0
3402 2011-06-05 21:07:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: you never did answer my question wrt progress towards pull req of connect timeout?
3403 2011-06-05 21:07:41 <Matson> gavin appears to have posted us some code
3404 2011-06-05 21:07:44  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-32-197.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
3405 2011-06-05 21:07:47 * BlueMatt wants to see 0.3.23 rc1 by the end of the week
3406 2011-06-05 21:08:11 <ZOP> wow.
3407 2011-06-05 21:08:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, a week looks like a good target
3408 2011-06-05 21:08:33 <ZOP> miniupnpc is like...wow.
3409 2011-06-05 21:09:29 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3410 2011-06-05 21:09:37 <ZOP> and neither bitcoind nor miniupnpc use autoconf.
3411 2011-06-05 21:09:42 <ZOP> which is another pain.
3412 2011-06-05 21:09:57 <Matson> someone went through some *really* nice work on this.  I suspect it was far more than just 1 person, this mythical "Satoshi"
3413 2011-06-05 21:09:58 octarine has joined
3414 2011-06-05 21:11:16 Kiba has joined
3415 2011-06-05 21:11:21 linda has joined
3416 2011-06-05 21:11:52 <linda> Hi
3417 2011-06-05 21:11:57 <BlueMatt> hello
3418 2011-06-05 21:12:24 <luke-jr> you can't *really* decode an address :P
3419 2011-06-05 21:12:36 lido has joined
3420 2011-06-05 21:12:44 <lido> hiiiiiii
3421 2011-06-05 21:12:53 <luke-jr> even though you can get as far as the 200-bit number, that's still a hash of the pubkey
3422 2011-06-05 21:13:12 <lido> i have compiled teh spesmilo and now I run the ./spesmilo and it asks for settings
3423 2011-06-05 21:13:20 <lido> http://user:pass@localhost:8332
3424 2011-06-05 21:13:22 <luke-jr> Matson: unlikely, given the multitude of design flaws ;p
3425 2011-06-05 21:13:30 <lido> but when i press connect it keep trying and not connecting
3426 2011-06-05 21:13:40 <lido> any help ?
3427 2011-06-05 21:13:40 <luke-jr> lido: do you have a bitcoind you run yourself?
3428 2011-06-05 21:13:47 bahk has joined
3429 2011-06-05 21:14:05 <lido> i have bitcoind .. but i dunno what command line ot run it or where is teh file to put teh user credientials
3430 2011-06-05 21:14:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
3431 2011-06-05 21:14:31 <luke-jr> lido: in that case, you want to select the "Use Internal Core" optiomn
3432 2011-06-05 21:14:34 <luke-jr> lido: which should be the default
3433 2011-06-05 21:14:39 <lido> it is grayed out
3434 2011-06-05 21:15:02 <luke-jr> lido: you need to be sure bitcoind is in your PATH when you run spesmilo
3435 2011-06-05 21:15:15 <metonymous_> aha!@
3436 2011-06-05 21:15:19 <metonymous_> that's why it didnt' work for me...
3437 2011-06-05 21:15:24 <bahk> I have bitcoind and in ~/.bitcoin there is a file with name blk0001.dat it is 206MB, what is it? and how big will it get?
3438 2011-06-05 21:15:28 <lido> ummm .. let me copy bitcoind to the spesmilo folder then
3439 2011-06-05 21:15:34 local_ghost has joined
3440 2011-06-05 21:15:44 <luke-jr> metonymous_: LOL :p
3441 2011-06-05 21:15:46 <lido> would that be enough to do teh trick ?
3442 2011-06-05 21:15:52 <luke-jr> lido: no
3443 2011-06-05 21:15:52 <local_ghost> hey :)
3444 2011-06-05 21:15:55 backwardation25 has joined
3445 2011-06-05 21:16:00 <luke-jr> lido: what directory is it in?
3446 2011-06-05 21:16:11 <luke-jr> export PATH=/path/to/bitcoind/directory/only:$PATH
3447 2011-06-05 21:16:12 <luke-jr> do that
3448 2011-06-05 21:16:18 <sipa> bahk: it's the block chain, and it will grow infinitely
3449 2011-06-05 21:16:26 <lido> i extracted in downloads folder (ubuntu naghty) then renamed teh folder to spes
3450 2011-06-05 21:16:29 <local_ghost> I'm kind of trying to understand bitcoin's sourcecode, but can't seem to find the CWalletX class, can somebdoy help me?
3451 2011-06-05 21:16:33 <metonymous_> sipa: till prunage!
3452 2011-06-05 21:16:44 <sipa> even then it will keep growing indefinitely
3453 2011-06-05 21:16:49 <lido> the bitcoind/bitcoin is in a folder called 32/bin/bitcoin//downloads
3454 2011-06-05 21:16:50 <sipa> but slower!
3455 2011-06-05 21:17:02 <Matson> luke-jr: design flaws that have been corrected? or ones still that are problems?
3456 2011-06-05 21:17:16 dvide has joined
3457 2011-06-05 21:17:25 <lido> aha ok let me try it
3458 2011-06-05 21:18:05 ar4s has joined
3459 2011-06-05 21:18:25 <linda> is this the place to ask how to startup mining ?
3460 2011-06-05 21:18:37 darksk1ez has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3461 2011-06-05 21:18:40 <bahk> sipa: thnx for info. That means it is difficult to run bitcoind on mobile platform
3462 2011-06-05 21:18:59 <luke-jr> Matson: some corrected, some uncorrectable, some not yet corrected
3463 2011-06-05 21:19:17  has joined
3464 2011-06-05 21:19:20 <lido> i did PATH=~/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:$PATH and ./spesmilo .. but yet again no core option and can't connect
3465 2011-06-05 21:19:29 <luke-jr> lido: I don't know if ~ works in PATH
3466 2011-06-05 21:19:33 <sipa> bahk: not intended to, but look up "lightweight mode" or "simplified payment verification"
3467 2011-06-05 21:19:34 <Matson> I'm really curious what some of the uncorrectable ones are, what results do they have on bitcoin use?
3468 2011-06-05 21:19:35 <luke-jr> and you need to export
3469 2011-06-05 21:19:43 <sipa> bahk: those things are possible on a mobile
3470 2011-06-05 21:19:57 <sipa> they're not (fully) implemented anywhere though
3471 2011-06-05 21:20:21 <luke-jr> Matson: nothing too significant IMO
3472 2011-06-05 21:20:44 zertam has quit (Quit: zertam)
3473 2011-06-05 21:20:51 <bahk> sipa: thanks, will read more
3474 2011-06-05 21:21:06 <local_ghost> guys, can you please help me understand the bitcoin source? :P
3475 2011-06-05 21:21:21 <sipa> local_ghost: if you have specific questions, please ask
3476 2011-06-05 21:21:24 <Matson> luke-jr: ok
3477 2011-06-05 21:21:37 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3478 2011-06-05 21:21:38 <local_ghost> sipa, for starters: how does cwalletx commit a transaction?
3479 2011-06-05 21:21:40 <metonymous_> what IDE do most of u guys use
3480 2011-06-05 21:21:51 <sipa> local_ghost: a cwallettx is a transaction
3481 2011-06-05 21:21:56 <zamgo> editpad++
3482 2011-06-05 21:21:57 adulau has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3483 2011-06-05 21:22:00 <sipa> local_ghost: and it gets committed by being added to mapWallet
3484 2011-06-05 21:22:01 <local_ghost> sipa, and how is it commited?
3485 2011-06-05 21:22:03 <lido> PATH=/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:$PATH .. PATH=/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32:$PATH .. PATH=~/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:$PATH .. PATH=/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoind:$PATH .. and not working
3486 2011-06-05 21:22:10 <sipa> local_ghost: and sent out
3487 2011-06-05 21:22:14 <local_ghost> I see. where is it defined?
3488 2011-06-05 21:22:21 <sipa> main.h/main.cpp
3489 2011-06-05 21:22:23 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3490 2011-06-05 21:23:19 <local_ghost> I see. It gets sent out through RelayMEssage, right?
3491 2011-06-05 21:23:32 <sipa> indeed
3492 2011-06-05 21:23:34 <lido> any help
3493 2011-06-05 21:23:34 adulau has joined
3494 2011-06-05 21:23:45 <local_ghost> okay, where can I find that function?
3495 2011-06-05 21:23:51 fimp has joined
3496 2011-06-05 21:24:15 <diki> someone warned me about watching out for rounding errors, care to elaborate more?
3497 2011-06-05 21:24:25 <sipa> local_ghost: net.cpp
3498 2011-06-05 21:24:50 <sipa> wait
3499 2011-06-05 21:25:24 <sipa> net.h
3500 2011-06-05 21:25:29 <edcba> you should only round at display
3501 2011-06-05 21:25:31 fizario has joined
3502 2011-06-05 21:26:46 <andrew12> tcatm: you own bitcoincharts.com, correct?
3503 2011-06-05 21:26:55 <diki> ok, but i read in the wiki something about ieee precision or something
3504 2011-06-05 21:26:58 fimp has quit (Client Quit)
3505 2011-06-05 21:27:11 <local_ghost> sipa, what is SER_NETWORK?
3506 2011-06-05 21:27:27 <tcatm> andrew12: yes
3507 2011-06-05 21:27:43 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3508 2011-06-05 21:27:59 <luke-jr> lido: again, you need to put export
3509 2011-06-05 21:28:04 <andrew12> tcatm: sometimes the telnet feed will send lines with two json objects with no separation
3510 2011-06-05 21:28:06 <luke-jr> lido: and the full path
3511 2011-06-05 21:28:10 <sipa> local_ghost: the serialization mode for network data
3512 2011-06-05 21:28:20 <luke-jr> lido: export PATH=/home/yourusername/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:$PATH
3513 2011-06-05 21:28:28 <andrew12> actually
3514 2011-06-05 21:28:30 <andrew12> wait one sec
3515 2011-06-05 21:28:33 <luke-jr> metonymous_: IDE ftl
3516 2011-06-05 21:28:40 <local_ghost> great, thanks
3517 2011-06-05 21:28:45 <metonymous_> ftl?
3518 2011-06-05 21:28:45 Stove_ has joined
3519 2011-06-05 21:28:48 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3520 2011-06-05 21:28:50 <local_ghost> I still have a lot of code to understand, but this is a good start
3521 2011-06-05 21:28:51 <metonymous_> ah
3522 2011-06-05 21:28:51 <local_ghost> :P
3523 2011-06-05 21:28:54 <metonymous_> yeh
3524 2011-06-05 21:29:15 <luke-jr> metonymous_: for the lose :p
3525 2011-06-05 21:29:30 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3526 2011-06-05 21:29:44 <lido> luke-jr: i did export PATH=/home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:$PATH and yet still not runable from the spes folder
3527 2011-06-05 21:30:39 <metonymous_> what's echo $PATH
3528 2011-06-05 21:31:15 <metonymous_> u could sudo cp bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoin* /usr/local/bin/
3529 2011-06-05 21:31:30 <lido> hello
3530 2011-06-05 21:31:38 <lido> "/home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:/home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32:Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32:home/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32:/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32:/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoind:/home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoind:/home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/:/home/walid/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games "
3531 2011-06-05 21:31:55 <metonymous_> ls /home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/
3532 2011-06-05 21:32:03 <metonymous_> ls -la /home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/
3533 2011-06-05 21:32:13 <metonymous_> u've lots of broken paths there
3534 2011-06-05 21:32:16 <metonymous_> u should clean it up
3535 2011-06-05 21:32:20 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
3536 2011-06-05 21:32:33 <metonymous_> exec bash
3537 2011-06-05 21:32:56 <metonymous_> add ur path mods to ~/.bashrc or ~/.profile
3538 2011-06-05 21:33:29 <CIA-92> bitcoin-release: Pieter Wuille master * r899bf15 / (2 files): Checkums and signature for 0.3.22 final - http://bit.ly/lRT58H
3539 2011-06-05 21:33:35 <lido> "sudo cp bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoin* /usr/local/bin/" ====> cp: cannot stat `bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoin*': Not a directory
3540 2011-06-05 21:33:43 <metonymous_> u have to fix the path
3541 2011-06-05 21:33:48 <metonymous_> it was pseudo code
3542 2011-06-05 21:34:07 <metonymous_> sudo cp /home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/bitcoin* /usr/local/bin/
3543 2011-06-05 21:34:15 <metonymous_> make sure they are executable tho
3544 2011-06-05 21:34:21 <luke-jr> anyone know WTF is going on at mtgox?
3545 2011-06-05 21:34:38 <metonymous_> works fast from here
3546 2011-06-05 21:34:39 PirateMarmalade has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3547 2011-06-05 21:34:41 <metonymous_> strangely fast
3548 2011-06-05 21:34:51 <fizario> the gox is trox
3549 2011-06-05 21:34:52 <luke-jr> #bitcoin-watch
3550 2011-06-05 21:34:54 local_ghost has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
3551 2011-06-05 21:34:59 PirateMarmalade has joined
3552 2011-06-05 21:35:10 payload has joined
3553 2011-06-05 21:35:26 <metonymous_> that all looks ok to me
3554 2011-06-05 21:35:27 <fizario> wuttup  broze
3555 2011-06-05 21:35:30 * sytse doesn't see something at the FAQ: when the demand for bitcoins gets close to the demand for dollars, dollars will start to decrease in value ;-)
3556 2011-06-05 21:35:39 <lido> "ls /home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/" ===> "bitcoin  bitcoind"
3557 2011-06-05 21:35:43 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3558 2011-06-05 21:35:43 nixh4ck has joined
3559 2011-06-05 21:35:47 _Netsniper_ has joined
3560 2011-06-05 21:35:49 <metonymous_> lido ls -la
3561 2011-06-05 21:35:55 <metonymous_> make sure they are +x
3562 2011-06-05 21:36:00 <lido> "ls -la /home/walid/Downloads/bitcoin/bin/32/" ===> "total 12720 drwxr-xr-x 2 walid walid    4096 2011-05-24 22:20 . drwxr-xr-x 4 walid walid    4096 2011-04-15 17:09 .. -rwxr-xr-x 1 walid walid 9286952 2011-04-27 18:00 bitcoin -rwxr-xr-x 1 walid walid 3703900 2011-04-27 18:00 bitcoind"
3563 2011-06-05 21:36:05 <metonymous_> sweet
3564 2011-06-05 21:36:21 <metonymous_> /usr/local/bin
3565 2011-06-05 21:36:24 <metonymous_> is alreay in ur path
3566 2011-06-05 21:36:27 <metonymous_> put the binaries there
3567 2011-06-05 21:36:36 nixh4ck has left ()
3568 2011-06-05 21:36:43 <metonymous_> then restart your shell
3569 2011-06-05 21:37:06 payload has left ()
3570 2011-06-05 21:37:52 Stove_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3571 2011-06-05 21:38:07  has quit (Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-27-72.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3572 2011-06-05 21:38:11 AStove has joined
3573 2011-06-05 21:38:35  has joined
3574 2011-06-05 21:39:21 <lido> grrrrrrrrr
3575 2011-06-05 21:39:26 <metonymous_> 410.0
3576 2011-06-05 21:39:27 <lido> finally running
3577 2011-06-05 21:39:28 <lido> :)
3578 2011-06-05 21:39:31 <lido> thanks guys
3579 2011-06-05 21:39:40  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-36-21.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
3580 2011-06-05 21:39:42 <metonymous_> ur welcome 1rTMmXoeAPRTZ3BExGDV4fAGphLsNGokf :P
3581 2011-06-05 21:39:48 <metonymous_> nah, give it to luke-jr
3582 2011-06-05 21:39:58 <luke-jr> 1Q1SXoQrm7uEWZhtkYscZqkSgox2rbMpxU
3583 2011-06-05 21:40:08 <luke-jr> :p
3584 2011-06-05 21:40:16 <metonymous_> should be an irc command for that
3585 2011-06-05 21:40:28 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
3586 2011-06-05 21:40:43 <lido> any sign of the number of connections in teh new interface ?
3587 2011-06-05 21:41:02 <metonymous_> just to refersh my memory on a no-brainer, but why do clients getwork every 5 seconds?
3588 2011-06-05 21:41:03 <luke-jr> lido: patches welcome
3589 2011-06-05 21:41:15 <luke-jr> metonymous_: no idea, they only need to once per block really
3590 2011-06-05 21:41:15 <sytse> say, why is the mtgox volume listed in bitcoincharts so much higher than the one listed in bitcoinwatch?
3591 2011-06-05 21:41:22 <sytse> um
3592 2011-06-05 21:41:22 <sytse> lower
3593 2011-06-05 21:41:30 <metonymous_> is it a pre-LP relic?
3594 2011-06-05 21:41:37 _Netsniper_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3595 2011-06-05 21:42:04 <luke-jr> probably
3596 2011-06-05 21:42:12 <lido> you want me to make a patch to show the number fo connections on spesmilo ?!!
3597 2011-06-05 21:42:17 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3598 2011-06-05 21:42:29 necrodearia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3599 2011-06-05 21:42:41 <luke-jr> metonymous_: actually, pushpoold expires work every 5 mins, so you do need to fetch new work at least that often
3600 2011-06-05 21:42:54 <luke-jr> lido: sure
3601 2011-06-05 21:43:08 <metonymous_> so it starts a new "work" every 5 minutes regardles of new block?
3602 2011-06-05 21:43:47 <sytse> it's pretty momentous that we've had *SIX* consecutive days with over $300000 in volume on mtgox btw
3603 2011-06-05 21:44:03 EPiSKiNG is now known as EPiSKiNG-
3604 2011-06-05 21:44:12 JRWR has quit ()
3605 2011-06-05 21:44:18 <luke-jr> metonymous_: if you send in a share older than 5 minutes, it will reject it
3606 2011-06-05 21:44:26 <metonymous_> i'd rather the volume measured in BTC
3607 2011-06-05 21:44:35 <sipa> metonymous_: volume is measured in BTC
3608 2011-06-05 21:44:38 EPiSKiNG- is now known as EPiSKiNG
3609 2011-06-05 21:44:42 <metonymous_> oh
3610 2011-06-05 21:44:44 <metonymous_> coold
3611 2011-06-05 21:44:48 <metonymous_> gruel
3612 2011-06-05 21:44:50 <metonymous_> luke-jr, why? sort
3613 2011-06-05 21:45:03 mosimo has joined
3614 2011-06-05 21:45:13 EPiSKiNG is now known as EPiSKiNG-
3615 2011-06-05 21:45:25 <luke-jr> metonymous_: memory? dunno
3616 2011-06-05 21:46:13 zamgo has left ()
3617 2011-06-05 21:46:36 <metonymous_> i think i've lived off of windows trial editions
3618 2011-06-05 21:46:41 <metonymous_> this time, windows 7 enterprise
3619 2011-06-05 21:46:50 <metonymous_> it's enterprise, so u know it's good
3620 2011-06-05 21:47:01 lido has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3621 2011-06-05 21:47:10 Juffo-Wup has joined
3622 2011-06-05 21:47:16 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
3623 2011-06-05 21:47:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":18.998,"low":16.2,"vol":28009,"buy":16.42,"sell":16.51,"last":16.4019}}
3624 2011-06-05 21:47:57 Teslah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3625 2011-06-05 21:48:17 * fizario jumps out of a window
3626 2011-06-05 21:48:34 <metonymous_> \me throws fizario an umbrella
3627 2011-06-05 21:48:39 * metonymous_ duh
3628 2011-06-05 21:48:48 <metonymous_> stupid windows backslash
3629 2011-06-05 21:49:37 <metonymous_> luke-jr, you could speed up spesmilo lots by using the freecoin python bindings
3630 2011-06-05 21:49:44 <metonymous_> jst a thought
3631 2011-06-05 21:49:45 <luke-jr> metonymous_: …
3632 2011-06-05 21:49:53 <luke-jr> metonymous_: meaning what?
3633 2011-06-05 21:49:59 <metonymous_> i haven't even got it to launch yet
3634 2011-06-05 21:50:04 <metonymous_> but u mentioend in the forums that RPC was too slow
3635 2011-06-05 21:50:14 <luke-jr> metonymous_: hence my work on a proper wallet protocol
3636 2011-06-05 21:50:15 <metonymous_> binary calls to the dll would be faster
3637 2011-06-05 21:50:18 <metonymous_> ah
3638 2011-06-05 21:50:23 <luke-jr> um, no :p
3639 2011-06-05 21:50:28 <metonymous_> ?
3640 2011-06-05 21:50:35 <metonymous_> ...
3641 2011-06-05 21:50:52 <luke-jr> DLL = bad idea
3642 2011-06-05 21:50:57 <metonymous_> ".so"
3643 2011-06-05 21:50:59 <metonymous_> linux
3644 2011-06-05 21:51:02 <luke-jr> .so = bad idea :p
3645 2011-06-05 21:51:08 <metonymous_> oooook why
3646 2011-06-05 21:51:15 <luke-jr> all UI <-> Wallet communication should be over a socket
3647 2011-06-05 21:51:20 <metonymous_> is there a command to ask gribble the number of diff 1 shares to avg find a thing?
3648 2011-06-05 21:51:20 <luke-jr> so they can be on different PCs
3649 2011-06-05 21:51:23 <metonymous_> TCP socket?
3650 2011-06-05 21:51:28 <luke-jr> TCP or stdio
3651 2011-06-05 21:51:32 <luke-jr> doesn't matter much
3652 2011-06-05 21:51:33 <sipa> metonymous_: yes
3653 2011-06-05 21:51:33 <metonymous_> aha
3654 2011-06-05 21:51:41 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,diff] * 2^32
3655 2011-06-05 21:51:42 <gribble> 434,882.7217497 * (2^32) = 1.86780707 * 10^(15)
3656 2011-06-05 21:51:46 <luke-jr> stdio for "embedded" mode
3657 2011-06-05 21:51:46 <metonymous_> ooo
3658 2011-06-05 21:51:50 necrodearia has joined
3659 2011-06-05 21:51:57 <metonymous_> wait, that's maths
3660 2011-06-05 21:52:03 <metonymous_> 10^15 shares
3661 2011-06-05 21:52:03 heistplay is now known as heistplay_
3662 2011-06-05 21:52:06 heistplay_ is now known as heistplay
3663 2011-06-05 21:52:11 <sipa> metonymous_: oh, shares?
3664 2011-06-05 21:52:15 <sipa> = difficulty
3665 2011-06-05 21:52:20 <metonymous_> that's hashes right?
3666 2011-06-05 21:52:22 <metonymous_> really
3667 2011-06-05 21:52:25 <sipa> that calculation is for hashes
3668 2011-06-05 21:52:26 <metonymous_> wow
3669 2011-06-05 21:52:36 <metonymous_> it's slowly coming together
3670 2011-06-05 21:52:49 <metonymous_> difficulty is shorthand for hashes, in diff 1 shares
3671 2011-06-05 21:52:54 <sipa> you need on average difficulty difficulty-1 shares, to have one 1 difficulty-difficulty block, no?
3672 2011-06-05 21:52:55 <metonymous_> cos it's a smaller number, more manageable?
3673 2011-06-05 21:53:01 GarrettB has joined
3674 2011-06-05 21:53:05 GarrettB has quit (Changing host)
3675 2011-06-05 21:53:05 GarrettB has joined
3676 2011-06-05 21:53:09 <metonymous_> ahh... yep?
3677 2011-06-05 21:53:13 <sipa> :)
3678 2011-06-05 21:53:17 <metonymous_> grrr thinking
3679 2011-06-05 21:53:21 <sipa> difficulty is just a factor
3680 2011-06-05 21:53:59 <sipa> and to be exact, it's actually 2^48/65535 hashes per difficulty-1 share
3681 2011-06-05 21:54:02 <metonymous_> was what people before were talking about being giving clients difficulty targets proportional to their hash speed?
3682 2011-06-05 21:54:11 <metonymous_> (for pools)
3683 2011-06-05 21:54:18 <sipa> but most pools use difficulty-.99998474121 shares
3684 2011-06-05 21:54:29 <metonymous_> ok, that's lost me
3685 2011-06-05 21:54:32 <luke-jr> sipa: erm, that's not right
3686 2011-06-05 21:54:53 <sipa> correct me
3687 2011-06-05 21:55:22 <metonymous_> pushpoold never goes down when i'm watching it
3688 2011-06-05 21:55:28 <metonymous_> damn murphies law
3689 2011-06-05 21:55:57 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't know the math to get the right answer :P
3690 2011-06-05 21:56:46 <metonymous_> from what is " 2^48/65535" derived?
3691 2011-06-05 21:56:47 <linda> Hi , Anyone that has setup a biccoin mining computer
3692 2011-06-05 21:56:54 <metonymous_> yep
3693 2011-06-05 21:57:21 <metonymous_> what's up linda
3694 2011-06-05 21:57:26 <linda> any good starter link , sw , hardware , setuptotorial out there
3695 2011-06-05 21:57:32 necrodearia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3696 2011-06-05 21:57:43 <metonymous_> google gui miner
3697 2011-06-05 21:57:47 <metonymous_> simplest around
3698 2011-06-05 21:57:56 <linda> will do thx , brb
3699 2011-06-05 21:58:09 <metonymous_> or.... www.kradminer.com
3700 2011-06-05 21:58:18 <metonymous_> even simpler :P
3701 2011-06-05 21:58:40 theorbtwo has joined
3702 2011-06-05 21:59:04 GermainAdrian has joined
3703 2011-06-05 21:59:12 necrodearia has joined
3704 2011-06-05 21:59:31 <GermainAdrian> Hi, I propose to add a messaging system to bitcoin, just like SWIFT. it would make operating a business that takes bitcoins - A LOT easier. just a like a wire, you add a short note to it.
3705 2011-06-05 21:59:40 <GermainAdrian> "pls credit my account #1234, kthx"
3706 2011-06-05 22:00:01 <linda> thx meto , that last is easy :) , what performance increase if not running in browser you think
3707 2011-06-05 22:00:01 <metonymous_> what'sSWIFT?
3708 2011-06-05 22:00:09 <metonymous_> my card
3709 2011-06-05 22:00:15 <metonymous_> is 280-320 on that site
3710 2011-06-05 22:00:25 <metonymous_> and 360-380 on phoenix miner
3711 2011-06-05 22:01:01 <metonymous_> feel free to donate if u make moneys :D 1MwMBWwvMC33WpFmkao9eV6nXRmtJz4oSV
3712 2011-06-05 22:01:13 <tcatm> GermainAdrian: write a RFC (e.g. figure out how to do that) without storing the message in the blockchain. maybe it could be broadcasted during a separate network
3713 2011-06-05 22:01:20 stuhood has joined
3714 2011-06-05 22:01:53 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: SWIFT is the international transaction system, thats how international wires are sent
3715 2011-06-05 22:01:56 Diablo-D3 has joined
3716 2011-06-05 22:02:31 <metonymous_> GermainAdrian, i've been thinking a lot about that, using XMPP
3717 2011-06-05 22:02:45 <metonymous_> but it's not decentralisd from the outset
3718 2011-06-05 22:03:47 <metonymous_> GermainAdrian, you should look at WASTE Again
3719 2011-06-05 22:03:51 <metonymous_> darknet chat software
3720 2011-06-05 22:03:55 <metonymous_> anonymous
3721 2011-06-05 22:03:57 <metonymous_> encrypted
3722 2011-06-05 22:04:04 stuhood has left ()
3723 2011-06-05 22:04:09 <metonymous_> uses public private keys for identification
3724 2011-06-05 22:04:10 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: its not that, not to encrypt anything
3725 2011-06-05 22:04:24 <metonymous_> it only encrytps peer to peer
3726 2011-06-05 22:04:26 <metonymous_> like ssl
3727 2011-06-05 22:04:27 <GermainAdrian> short messages with a bitcoin would make a transaction easier to identify for a business operator
3728 2011-06-05 22:04:32 <GermainAdrian> so you know what this transaction was about
3729 2011-06-05 22:04:37 <metonymous_> transactions already have messages
3730 2011-06-05 22:04:41 <metonymous_> message from to
3731 2011-06-05 22:04:54 <GermainAdrian> rly?
3732 2011-06-05 22:04:57 <GermainAdrian> why its not in my client.
3733 2011-06-05 22:05:08 <metonymous_> sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to]
3734 2011-06-05 22:05:10 <metonymous_> commandl ine
3735 2011-06-05 22:05:10 <GermainAdrian> mine keeps on saying from "unknown"
3736 2011-06-05 22:05:14 <metonymous_> it's just not in the gui
3737 2011-06-05 22:05:16 <GermainAdrian> oh has to be command line
3738 2011-06-05 22:05:17 <GermainAdrian> ok ok
3739 2011-06-05 22:05:26 <iera> how long should a 0.40 transaction take to get into a block?
3740 2011-06-05 22:05:26 <metonymous_> u need to create receving addresses
3741 2011-06-05 22:05:29 <metonymous_> for each transaction
3742 2011-06-05 22:05:30 <luke-jr> GermainAdrian: I agree, and I see a good way to do it
3743 2011-06-05 22:05:33 <metonymous_> so u can track who it came from
3744 2011-06-05 22:05:47 <metonymous_> iera, atm, one block
3745 2011-06-05 22:05:55 <GermainAdrian> luke-jr: what about this [comment] part?
3746 2011-06-05 22:05:56 red-dawn has joined
3747 2011-06-05 22:05:59 <tcatm> commandline messages are only stored locally
3748 2011-06-05 22:06:01 <metonymous_> it's storedl ocally
3749 2011-06-05 22:06:04 <luke-jr> GermainAdrian: that's just local
3750 2011-06-05 22:06:06 <GermainAdrian> then its worthless
3751 2011-06-05 22:06:09 <GermainAdrian> it has to be transmitted.
3752 2011-06-05 22:06:22 <luke-jr> metonymous_: email > XMPP for this IMO
3753 2011-06-05 22:06:31 <luke-jr> metonymous_: but XMPP mgiht work better for receiving I suppose
3754 2011-06-05 22:06:41 <tcatm> it's not worthless. It helps you to remember what that transaction was for.
3755 2011-06-05 22:06:49 <metonymous_> i'm going to write a replacement for pushpool using XMPP publish subscribe
3756 2011-06-05 22:06:52 <metonymous_> to test
3757 2011-06-05 22:06:53 <GermainAdrian> tcatm: worthless for my intents. i am sure its useful in other contexts.
3758 2011-06-05 22:06:54 red-dawn has left ()
3759 2011-06-05 22:07:01 <luke-jr> metonymous_: bad idea
3760 2011-06-05 22:07:01 <iera> metonymous_: thanks, hm.. is it covered already to make a transaction when i have 0 connections currently? will it be transferred if i get online again?
3761 2011-06-05 22:07:14 <GermainAdrian> messages must be PGP encrypted -always-.
3762 2011-06-05 22:07:17 <fizario> vagiuna
3763 2011-06-05 22:07:19 <tcatm> if you need to match incoming transactions, use different addresses for each.
3764 2011-06-05 22:07:21 <GermainAdrian> so this way nobody can read them
3765 2011-06-05 22:07:21 <metonymous_> if u were connected when u sent it
3766 2011-06-05 22:07:32 <metonymous_> iera, it gets pushed back into the network if it doesn't fit
3767 2011-06-05 22:07:36 <iera> metonymous_: ok
3768 2011-06-05 22:07:53 <metonymous_> encrypt with destiination address public key GermainAdrian
3769 2011-06-05 22:07:56 <metonymous_> WASTE does that
3770 2011-06-05 22:07:59 <luke-jr> tcatm: no
3771 2011-06-05 22:08:06 <luke-jr> tcatm: signmessage
3772 2011-06-05 22:08:08 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: exactly
3773 2011-06-05 22:08:11 <metonymous_> it even saturates the network with traffic, to prevent network analysis
3774 2011-06-05 22:08:15 <metonymous_> sign+encrypt
3775 2011-06-05 22:08:17 <GermainAdrian> waste+bitcoin=win?
3776 2011-06-05 22:08:24 <metonymous_> GermainAdrian, i reckon, ::D
3777 2011-06-05 22:08:31 gavinandresen has joined
3778 2011-06-05 22:08:34 <metonymous_> we should get the guy who wrote Waste
3779 2011-06-05 22:08:39 <luke-jr> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6428.0
3780 2011-06-05 22:08:41 <GermainAdrian> and pay him bitcoins
3781 2011-06-05 22:08:47 <metonymous_> Justin.... what's his name, made winamp
3782 2011-06-05 22:09:06 <luke-jr> clients should just send a signed email for you ;)
3783 2011-06-05 22:09:09 <metonymous_> and gnteela
3784 2011-06-05 22:09:15 <metonymous_> over what network?
3785 2011-06-05 22:09:22 <metonymous_> run smtp all over bitcoin?
3786 2011-06-05 22:09:22 mrenouf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3787 2011-06-05 22:09:27 <luke-jr> metonymous_: email
3788 2011-06-05 22:09:38 <GermainAdrian> luke-jr: it has to be self-contained within bitcoin
3789 2011-06-05 22:09:38 <metonymous_> there goes anonymity :\
3790 2011-06-05 22:09:42 <luke-jr> GermainAdrian: so?
3791 2011-06-05 22:09:43 <GermainAdrian> without reliance on any other netowrk
3792 2011-06-05 22:09:44 <metonymous_> wallets exist
3793 2011-06-05 22:09:45 <luke-jr> metonymous_: there is no anonymity
3794 2011-06-05 22:09:46 <metonymous_> use those keys
3795 2011-06-05 22:09:49 <metonymous_> yes
3796 2011-06-05 22:09:52 <metonymous_> identity anonymity
3797 2011-06-05 22:10:02 <luke-jr> screw anonymity
3798 2011-06-05 22:10:07 <metonymous_> if u like
3799 2011-06-05 22:10:09 <metonymous_> Luke Jr
3800 2011-06-05 22:10:22 <luke-jr> metonymous_: all my info is public, n00b
3801 2011-06-05 22:10:29 <GermainAdrian> there is no anonymity?
3802 2011-06-05 22:10:29 <metonymous_> i like the option of anonymity and security, douche
3803 2011-06-05 22:10:33 <luke-jr> GermainAdrian: no
3804 2011-06-05 22:10:38 <metonymous_> GermainAdrian, yes
3805 2011-06-05 22:10:43 xorAxAx has joined
3806 2011-06-05 22:10:47 <metonymous_> pseudonmyity
3807 2011-06-05 22:10:51 <xorAxAx> hi, is there a changelog for .22?
3808 2011-06-05 22:10:52 <metonymous_> u install bitcoin
3809 2011-06-05 22:10:54 <metonymous_> trasfer coins
3810 2011-06-05 22:10:58 <metonymous_> uninstall it
3811 2011-06-05 22:11:01 <xorAxAx> and why isnt it announced on the website yetß
3812 2011-06-05 22:11:04 <metonymous_> never use that lan cafe again
3813 2011-06-05 22:11:13 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: everything is in the blockchain
3814 2011-06-05 22:11:24 <metonymous_> yes, but that isn't traceable to a person
3815 2011-06-05 22:11:30 <metonymous_> the transaction is tracable
3816 2011-06-05 22:11:35 <metonymous_> but not to a human identiy
3817 2011-06-05 22:11:40 <metonymous_> unless they track lots of transactions
3818 2011-06-05 22:11:43 <fizario> hey brozebs
3819 2011-06-05 22:11:44 <metonymous_> and do network analysis
3820 2011-06-05 22:11:49 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: it becomes tracable at points of entry, exchanges
3821 2011-06-05 22:12:06 <metonymous_> if u mine a block
3822 2011-06-05 22:12:08 <metonymous_> u get 50
3823 2011-06-05 22:12:10 <metonymous_> spend it
3824 2011-06-05 22:12:13 <metonymous_> leave the network
3825 2011-06-05 22:12:17 <gmaxwell> Or the point of exit.
3826 2011-06-05 22:12:24 <metonymous_> if the whole thing is in BTC
3827 2011-06-05 22:12:59 <metonymous_> who pasted the khal link of encrypted messages? is that in the code?
3828 2011-06-05 22:13:21 <luke-jr> metonymous_: it's not encrypted, it's signed
3829 2011-06-05 22:13:38 <metonymous_> u are correct
3830 2011-06-05 22:13:43 <metonymous_> it's not in th codebase?
3831 2011-06-05 22:13:44 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|Sleep
3832 2011-06-05 22:13:50 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: point of exit doesn't mean to $, it might just be e.g. if I bust your drugdealer, they know your address.
3833 2011-06-05 22:13:50 <khalahan> metonymous_>not yet
3834 2011-06-05 22:14:28 <gmaxwell> Really all the same as cash, but with cash your drugs/arms/etc dealer might not keep any record of the payment, but with bitcoin they do.
3835 2011-06-05 22:14:35 <GermainAdrian> luke-jr: I created a chat with regards to coin messaging - #coinmail
3836 2011-06-05 22:14:43 <xorAxAx> gah, no changelog
3837 2011-06-05 22:14:45 <metonymous_> they can't finger it to you
3838 2011-06-05 22:14:53 <metonymous_> there's no ip logs
3839 2011-06-05 22:14:54 <luke-jr> metonymous_: they can
3840 2011-06-05 22:14:57 <metonymous_> shred ur wallet
3841 2011-06-05 22:14:58 <xorAxAx> dabblers!
3842 2011-06-05 22:15:02 <metonymous_> luke-jr how?
3843 2011-06-05 22:15:24 <gmaxwell> Some people are keeping IP logs of observed txns, with timestamps FWIW.
3844 2011-06-05 22:15:33 <GermainAdrian> really?
3845 2011-06-05 22:15:34 <metonymous_> again, avoidable
3846 2011-06-05 22:15:38 <metonymous_> VPN tunnels
3847 2011-06-05 22:15:47 <metonymous_> u onlly broadcast to adjacent nodes
3848 2011-06-05 22:15:56 <iera> or just connect to tor nodes
3849 2011-06-05 22:16:09 <GermainAdrian> that are run by NSA
3850 2011-06-05 22:16:18 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: but I don't see how that matters.
3851 2011-06-05 22:16:20 <luke-jr> metonymous_: now you're saying HTTP is anonymous because you can use Tor
3852 2011-06-05 22:16:21 <GermainAdrian> then order from silk road
3853 2011-06-05 22:16:26 * metonymous_ dons tinfoil hat
3854 2011-06-05 22:16:36 <metonymous_> luke-jr ididn't mention to
3855 2011-06-05 22:16:38 <metonymous_> tor
3856 2011-06-05 22:16:44 <metonymous_> i mentioned isolating who u connect to
3857 2011-06-05 22:16:54 <metonymous_> only they can possilby know ur ip
3858 2011-06-05 22:16:55 <gmaxwell> if someone busts your arms dealer, they can go get you. Pretty straight forward.
3859 2011-06-05 22:17:03 <metonymous_> but that's like anything
3860 2011-06-05 22:17:13 <metonymous_> they can't get u unless he tells them it was you
3861 2011-06-05 22:17:15 <gmaxwell> Yes.
3862 2011-06-05 22:17:22 <metonymous_> the actual protocol doesn't tag u to the wallet
3863 2011-06-05 22:17:26 <gmaxwell> It's like cash but a little worse, because for case there won't be evidence of the payment most likely.
3864 2011-06-05 22:17:32 <metonymous_> because you are not ur IP address
3865 2011-06-05 22:17:40 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: no, but their sales system will.
3866 2011-06-05 22:17:45 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: not everyone uses coffee shop wifis
3867 2011-06-05 22:17:48 <metonymous_> drug dealers have sales systems?
3868 2011-06-05 22:17:56 <GermainAdrian> yes, they have ledgers
3869 2011-06-05 22:17:57 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: you've not visited silk road?
3870 2011-06-05 22:18:05 <metonymous_> it's been down every visit
3871 2011-06-05 22:18:10 <GermainAdrian> btw, some senator wants to shutdown the silk road
3872 2011-06-05 22:18:37 <metonymous_> can anyone simlply explain "Dangers of blind signing"
3873 2011-06-05 22:19:03 <Xenland> is it possible to blind sign?
3874 2011-06-05 22:19:04 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: any bitcoin seller needs to be able to tell which inbound payment was for which purchase so they know what they can ship.
3875 2011-06-05 22:19:05 <iz> you can't see what you're saying to deaf ppl
3876 2011-06-05 22:19:13 xorAxAx has left ("I am a partmsg virus! Copy me into your configuration! X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*")
3877 2011-06-05 22:19:18 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, yeh, that'd be in their wallet
3878 2011-06-05 22:19:32 <metonymous_> but with a delivery, it doesn't prove it was u, just that they said it was you
3879 2011-06-05 22:19:42 <gmaxwell> I'm tempted to go help some people get busted for bitcoin transactions, just so people stop exagerating the anonymity.
3880 2011-06-05 22:19:52 <metonymous_> ffs
3881 2011-06-05 22:20:00 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: how anonymous is bitcoin
3882 2011-06-05 22:20:02 <metonymous_> anonymity is a spectrum
3883 2011-06-05 22:20:02 gruez has joined
3884 2011-06-05 22:20:03 fckStick has joined
3885 2011-06-05 22:20:08 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: perhaps you misunderstand the legal level of proof required to get a conviction? It doesn't require perfect proof.
3886 2011-06-05 22:20:11 <metonymous_> and it's possible to acheive very high amounts
3887 2011-06-05 22:20:27 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: beyond reasonable doubt for criminal prosecutions is pretty high
3888 2011-06-05 22:20:36 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: I like to say less anonymous than cash, more anonymous than most other things.
3889 2011-06-05 22:20:43 <metonymous_> agreed
3890 2011-06-05 22:20:46 <GermainAdrian> canadian supreme court held that an IP address log is not a proof
3891 2011-06-05 22:20:53 <metonymous_> yay canada
3892 2011-06-05 22:20:54 <GermainAdrian> screenshort sry, not logs.
3893 2011-06-05 22:21:01 <GermainAdrian> screenshot*
3894 2011-06-05 22:21:09 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: there are common convictions in the US for people who just recieved something by mail.
3895 2011-06-05 22:21:18 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: thats different
3896 2011-06-05 22:21:18 <gmaxwell> E.g. most non-internet child porn convictions.
3897 2011-06-05 22:21:23 <GermainAdrian> mail fraud etc
3898 2011-06-05 22:21:42 <GermainAdrian> but you are talking about the physical world
3899 2011-06-05 22:21:44 btc4beer has joined
3900 2011-06-05 22:21:59 <GermainAdrian> tracing somebody in the blockchain, how likely is it.
3901 2011-06-05 22:22:09 <GermainAdrian> say you want to know WHO was involved in a certain txn
3902 2011-06-05 22:22:12 <GermainAdrian> very hard to do, no?
3903 2011-06-05 22:22:23 <gmaxwell> And making yourself anonymous on the internet is quite tricky. E.g. see https://panopticlick.eff.org/   few people are technically savyy enough to pull it of, and few who are paranoid enough.
3904 2011-06-05 22:22:37 <metonymous_> i'm anonymous where it counts to me
3905 2011-06-05 22:22:46 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: it's not in some cases. Is in others.
3906 2011-06-05 22:22:54 <linda> hi , meto , http://www.kradminer.com/ was cool but i cant get the Nokia WebCL add-on to work on my mac
3907 2011-06-05 22:22:57 <metonymous_> i prefer accountability
3908 2011-06-05 22:23:06 <metonymous_> linda the plugin is cross platform
3909 2011-06-05 22:23:10 <metonymous_> afaik
3910 2011-06-05 22:23:17 <metonymous_> ... i could be wrong
3911 2011-06-05 22:23:26 <metonymous_> OS X is the least support bitcoin platform atm
3912 2011-06-05 22:23:26 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: exchanges will always roll over, lest they get branded terrorsts money laundering operations and get legally blown up.
3913 2011-06-05 22:23:38 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: they will, there is no question
3914 2011-06-05 22:23:43 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: so any txn 1 hop from an exchange (on either side) will be easily connectable.
3915 2011-06-05 22:23:49 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3916 2011-06-05 22:23:50 <linda> thx , oki , ill try again
3917 2011-06-05 22:24:00 <metonymous_> new block!
3918 2011-06-05 22:24:02 <metonymous_> huzzah
3919 2011-06-05 22:24:07 <GermainAdrian> is NSA running surveillance on bitcon yet?
3920 2011-06-05 22:24:13 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3921 2011-06-05 22:24:29 fckStick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3922 2011-06-05 22:24:35  has joined
3923 2011-06-05 22:24:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pong
3924 2011-06-05 22:25:05 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: Who knows. The traffic is cleartext, so if you have say the ability to do broad internet monitoring you don't even need to run nodes. :)
3925 2011-06-05 22:25:09 <metonymous_> rtt 32 seconds
3926 2011-06-05 22:25:17 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: damn
3927 2011-06-05 22:25:19 <GermainAdrian> cleartext?
3928 2011-06-05 22:25:32 <metonymous_> encrypt peer to peer i say
3929 2011-06-05 22:25:33 <GermainAdrian> I thought it was supposed to a crypto-currency
3930 2011-06-05 22:25:35 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: sure, bitcoins general properties doesn't need any encryption.
3931 2011-06-05 22:25:44 <gruez> is there a way to hide your hostmask?
3932 2011-06-05 22:25:58 <metonymous_> hostmask?
3933 2011-06-05 22:26:00 <gruez> on irc, because i dont want people to know my ip
3934 2011-06-05 22:26:06 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: meh, making it easier for authorities to monitor makes it less likely to get targeted.
3935 2011-06-05 22:26:07 <metonymous_> tunnel
3936 2011-06-05 22:26:13 <gruez> gruez [adce09df@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.206.9.223]
3937 2011-06-05 22:26:15 <gruez> oh noes
3938 2011-06-05 22:26:16 <gruez> my ip
3939 2011-06-05 22:26:17 <gruez> :(
3940 2011-06-05 22:26:23 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: people who have any real hope of evading them will want/need/use tor.
3941 2011-06-05 22:26:32 <metonymous_> haha gruez i call u on the cyber police
3942 2011-06-05 22:26:43 <gruez> is there a way to hide it?
3943 2011-06-05 22:26:45 <metonymous_> there are overnets other than tor
3944 2011-06-05 22:26:54 <metonymous_> gruez, use a tunnel  / proxy
3945 2011-06-05 22:26:55 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: right, or some other tunnel.
3946 2011-06-05 22:26:55 mrenouf has joined
3947 2011-06-05 22:26:59 <gruez> seriously?
3948 2011-06-05 22:27:05 <metonymous_> for serious
3949 2011-06-05 22:27:07 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3950 2011-06-05 22:27:14 <metonymous_> or use a web chat
3951 2011-06-05 22:27:20 <gruez> i do use webchat
3952 2011-06-05 22:27:21 <gruez> :(
3953 2011-06-05 22:27:23 <gmaxwell> he is using the webchat
3954 2011-06-05 22:27:29 <metonymous_> use a different one
3955 2011-06-05 22:27:35 <GermainAdrian> metonymous_: what are the other overnets
3956 2011-06-05 22:27:36 <gmaxwell> gruez: google for freenode cloak.
3957 2011-06-05 22:27:47 <gmaxwell> GermainAdrian: e.g. any VPN service.
3958 2011-06-05 22:27:48 <metonymous_> GermainAdrian, if i told u i'd have to kill you
3959 2011-06-05 22:27:54 <GermainAdrian> gmaxwell: thats not an overnet
3960 2011-06-05 22:28:02 <metonymous_> realllly/
3961 2011-06-05 22:28:05 <gmaxwell> It's a network over the netwok. :)
3962 2011-06-05 22:28:08 <metonymous_> it has private ip's
3963 2011-06-05 22:28:13 <metonymous_> it's over TCP-IP
3964 2011-06-05 22:28:16 <GermainAdrian> i thought u meant to say overnet protocol
3965 2011-06-05 22:28:30 <metonymous_> there are, but most use TCP-IP
3966 2011-06-05 22:28:34 <metonymous_> cos ... yah know
3967 2011-06-05 22:28:37 <metonymous_> it's hard not to
3968 2011-06-05 22:28:43 <metonymous_> a packets a packet
3969 2011-06-05 22:28:52 <metonymous_> udp
3970 2011-06-05 22:28:59 <metonymous_> make ur own protocol
3971 2011-06-05 22:29:10 <metonymous_> u should use WASTE if u haven't
3972 2011-06-05 22:29:14 <metonymous_> interesting experiment
3973 2011-06-05 22:29:18 <gmaxwell> hm. I wonder if it would be interesting to setup a mixmaster network for TXNs sends.. that make your sends slow but basically untracable.
3974 2011-06-05 22:29:23 <gruez> aww
3975 2011-06-05 22:29:29 <gruez> i have to as irc op to do it
3976 2011-06-05 22:29:29 <gruez> :(
3977 2011-06-05 22:29:33 <gmaxwell> (tor is actually not great for this— too vulnerable to timing analysis)
3978 2011-06-05 22:29:43 <gmaxwell> gruez: or join irc via tor
3979 2011-06-05 22:29:44 <metonymous_> yep
3980 2011-06-05 22:29:50 <metonymous_> u need network saturation
3981 2011-06-05 22:29:52 <metonymous_> tools
3982 2011-06-05 22:29:54 <gruez> tor = super lag
3983 2011-06-05 22:29:56 <metonymous_> generating fake traffic
3984 2011-06-05 22:30:06 <metonymous_> and interspercing ur real traffic amongts it
3985 2011-06-05 22:30:16 <metonymous_> all encrypted point to point, and end to end
3986 2011-06-05 22:30:30 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: well, just pad the whole thing out to constant bitrate.
3987 2011-06-05 22:30:35 <metonymous_> yep
3988 2011-06-05 22:30:46 <metonymous_> but they could do bitwise analysis
3989 2011-06-05 22:30:49 <metonymous_> so u need to pad properly
3990 2011-06-05 22:30:57 <gruez> pad randomly
3991 2011-06-05 22:30:58 <diki> what conditions must be met so one doesnt collect the full 50btc from a block?
3992 2011-06-05 22:31:02 <metonymous_> and u need to set up a permanent node
3993 2011-06-05 22:31:05 <metonymous_> never turn it off
3994 2011-06-05 22:31:06 <gmaxwell> gruez: no. To a constant rate.
3995 2011-06-05 22:31:23 <metonymous_> constant proportional to the fastest u'd likely naturaly use
3996 2011-06-05 22:31:24 <gmaxwell> constant bitrate leaks no traffic data.
3997 2011-06-05 22:31:26 <metonymous_> and saturate to that
3998 2011-06-05 22:31:47 <metonymous_> diki it's mid next year
3999 2011-06-05 22:31:53 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: to prevent entry exit timing in a multihop network you will have mix delays in any case.
4000 2011-06-05 22:31:59 <diki> i am talking about currently
4001 2011-06-05 22:32:08 <gmaxwell> diki: not asking for it.
4002 2011-06-05 22:32:14 <metonymous_> gmaxwell, you only need one extra node per real node
4003 2011-06-05 22:32:24 <metonymous_> each user would install a node permanently
4004 2011-06-05 22:32:27 <metonymous_> saturating constantly
4005 2011-06-05 22:32:32 <metonymous_> then when they wanted ot do a transaction
4006 2011-06-05 22:32:36 <metonymous_> they'd connect to that node
4007 2011-06-05 22:32:37 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: most users don't give a @#$@ about this crap.
4008 2011-06-05 22:32:41 <metonymous_> do it, then disconnect
4009 2011-06-05 22:32:50 <metonymous_> true... but they odn't have to see the protocol
4010 2011-06-05 22:32:59 <gmaxwell> then someone sees that connection go up, then shortly after the txn exit the mix network. Nailed.
4011 2011-06-05 22:33:01 <metonymous_> i'm just saying, it can be done :P
4012 2011-06-05 22:33:18 <gmaxwell> Which is why it must be high delay.
4013 2011-06-05 22:33:25 <metonymous_> the node is not connected to the transaction other than timing, correct
4014 2011-06-05 22:33:32 <metonymous_> but you'd create a new node each message
4015 2011-06-05 22:33:49 <gmaxwell> So, the feature most required for this is a seperate -connect option which brings up a connection purely for sending txn and only sends via that connection.
4016 2011-06-05 22:34:07 <metonymous_> that could be done via a script with the current code no?
4017 2011-06-05 22:34:12 <gmaxwell> (then the mix network is just a special bitcoin proxy)
4018 2011-06-05 22:34:16 <metonymous_> yeh
4019 2011-06-05 22:34:22 <metonymous_> i like that idea
4020 2011-06-05 22:34:26 <gruez> what does everybody think about pool hopping?
4021 2011-06-05 22:34:31 <ersi> Booo!
4022 2011-06-05 22:34:33 <metonymous_> i think it's ok
4023 2011-06-05 22:34:40 <metonymous_> and solved by better rulesets for scoring
4024 2011-06-05 22:34:45 <metonymous_> geometric payouts
4025 2011-06-05 22:34:48 lebish is now known as zz_lebish
4026 2011-06-05 22:34:51 <gruez> why do so many pools use porportional?
4027 2011-06-05 22:34:53 <metonymous_> if ur pool doesn't solve the problem, change pools
4028 2011-06-05 22:34:57 <metonymous_> it was the first
4029 2011-06-05 22:35:00 <metonymous_> and the simplest
4030 2011-06-05 22:35:05 <gmaxwell> geometric payouts are a bit unfair for e.g. slower miners.
4031 2011-06-05 22:35:18 <metonymous_> true
4032 2011-06-05 22:35:25 JRWR has joined
4033 2011-06-05 22:35:26 <gmaxwell> Luke's max-pps is the most fair system I've seen. No one uses it though.
4034 2011-06-05 22:36:00 <metonymous_> max-pps
4035 2011-06-05 22:36:02 <metonymous_> in a nutshell?
4036 2011-06-05 22:36:09 <gruez> if you were pool hopping
4037 2011-06-05 22:36:14 <gruez> and it's 40%
4038 2011-06-05 22:36:20 <gruez> and you join a score based poo;
4039 2011-06-05 22:36:20 <gmaxwell> maxpps caps your return per share to the expeted return per share. Then uses the excess to fill up to the expected when you're under.
4040 2011-06-05 22:36:24 <gruez> won't you lose money?
4041 2011-06-05 22:36:40 <gruez> if the porportional pool goes back to 0% before the score based pool finishes?
4042 2011-06-05 22:36:59 <metonymous_> pools needn't publish when blocks are found
4043 2011-06-05 22:37:03 <metonymous_> not sure why they do
4044 2011-06-05 22:37:18 zz_lebish is now known as zz_zz_lebish
4045 2011-06-05 22:37:18 <gruez> to look legit?
4046 2011-06-05 22:37:20 <gmaxwell> Everybody loves watching the counters move.
4047 2011-06-05 22:37:32 <gmaxwell> besides the more data a pool hides that harder it is to trust it.
4048 2011-06-05 22:37:33 <metonymous_> make fake counters then :P like kradminer.com
4049 2011-06-05 22:37:59 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4050 2011-06-05 22:38:10 <metonymous_> if u get payouts
4051 2011-06-05 22:38:14 <metonymous_> at the rate u expect
4052 2011-06-05 22:38:20 <metonymous_> i wouldn't care how i was getting it
4053 2011-06-05 22:38:32 <metonymous_> that's why i run a private pool
4054 2011-06-05 22:38:37 <metonymous_> for everyone i know personally
4055 2011-06-05 22:38:48 <gmaxwell> metonymous_: thus all the people who are happy with PPS on deep bit.
4056 2011-06-05 22:38:50 <mtrlt> fake counters? :D
4057 2011-06-05 22:38:53 <mtrlt> srsly?
4058 2011-06-05 22:38:59 <metonymous_> he says it upfront
4059 2011-06-05 22:39:18 <metonymous_> he uses the proportional- pps with  a maximum technique
4060 2011-06-05 22:39:19 <metonymous_> but with that your payout never changes if u mine constantly
4061 2011-06-05 22:39:23 <metonymous_> so he fakes a number
4062 2011-06-05 22:39:25 <metonymous_> less than ur payout
4063 2011-06-05 22:39:29 <metonymous_> so u feel awesome when u get it
4064 2011-06-05 22:39:32 <mtrlt> lol
4065 2011-06-05 22:39:35 <metonymous_> but he tells u he's doing it
4066 2011-06-05 22:39:39 <mtrlt> hehe
4067 2011-06-05 22:40:17 <linda> meto , it doesnt seem to work for mac :(
4068 2011-06-05 22:40:59 Reggina has joined
4069 2011-06-05 22:41:05 <metonymous_> sorry about that... on my mac I used rpcminer
4070 2011-06-05 22:41:11 <metonymous_> but my card idn't have opencl
4071 2011-06-05 22:41:14 <metonymous_> so taht was a dead end
4072 2011-06-05 22:41:22 <metonymous_> i  must have compiled it myself
4073 2011-06-05 22:42:01 <metonymous_> linda, does the plugin only have windows and linux versions ?
4074 2011-06-05 22:42:20  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-36-21.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
4075 2011-06-05 22:42:24 <linda> yeah , its the nokiaplugnin
4076 2011-06-05 22:42:27 Stove_ has joined
4077 2011-06-05 22:43:39 <linda> ill try rpcminer
4078 2011-06-05 22:43:55 zz_zz_lebish is now known as lebish
4079 2011-06-05 22:44:11 <metonymous_> i don't have my charger, so i can't check for u sorry
4080 2011-06-05 22:45:03 <linda> no worries , im downloading the rpcminer , im sure there must be a simple miner for mac to get strarted
4081 2011-06-05 22:45:05 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4082 2011-06-05 22:45:19 * lupine_85 gets something basic up at sharpcoin.org
4083 2011-06-05 22:45:56 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4084 2011-06-05 22:46:15 <metonymous_> lupine_85, does it compile?
4085 2011-06-05 22:46:28 <lupine_85> that question makes no sense for an interpreted language
4086 2011-06-05 22:46:37 Xenland has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4087 2011-06-05 22:46:38 <lupine_85> the tests pass, though
4088 2011-06-05 22:46:39 <metonymous_> iiii didn;'t even check
4089 2011-06-05 22:46:42 <lupine_85> (such tests as there are)
4090 2011-06-05 22:46:53 <metonymous_> are the desired features implemented?
4091 2011-06-05 22:46:59 <lupine_85> not even close :)
4092 2011-06-05 22:47:02 pierre` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4093 2011-06-05 22:47:14 <metonymous_> ruby?
4094 2011-06-05 22:47:19 <lupine_85> currently, it's utterly uninteresting
4095 2011-06-05 22:47:20 <lupine_85> ja
4096 2011-06-05 22:47:22 <metonymous_> is ruby jit compiled nowadays?
4097 2011-06-05 22:47:33 <lupine_85> depends on the runtime you use
4098 2011-06-05 22:47:40 <metonymous_> how much of bitcoin net does bitcoin wire do?
4099 2011-06-05 22:47:42 <lupine_85> JRuby and Rubinius both have JIT
4100 2011-06-05 22:47:55 <metonymous_> cool
4101 2011-06-05 22:48:01 <lupine_85> it can serialise and deserialise all messages except the IP transactions
4102 2011-06-05 22:48:06 <metonymous_> i've been out of the ruby scene since pre rails 2
4103 2011-06-05 22:48:10 <lupine_85> 'though test coverage isn't 100%
4104 2011-06-05 22:48:15 <metonymous_> what are IP transactions?
4105 2011-06-05 22:48:33 <lupine_85> there are other ruby libraries that purport to do the same, but their parsers make me cringe
4106 2011-06-05 22:48:40 <lupine_85> transactions to a particular IP address
4107 2011-06-05 22:48:44 <metonymous_> oh
4108 2011-06-05 22:48:49 <metonymous_> i thought that was being removed anyway
4109 2011-06-05 22:48:55 <metonymous_> it's not in the gui anymore
4110 2011-06-05 22:48:57 <lupine_85> well, if so, it supports everything
4111 2011-06-05 22:49:00 <lupine_85> win
4112 2011-06-05 22:49:01 <metonymous_> heh
4113 2011-06-05 22:49:15 <metonymous_> ""if you ignore a problem long enough, sometimes it goes away""
4114 2011-06-05 22:49:19 <lupine_85> :)
4115 2011-06-05 22:49:22 <metonymous_>  - m@
4116 2011-06-05 22:50:02 <lupine_85> anyway, having made my impressarium, it's time for me to watch more game of thrones
4117 2011-06-05 22:50:13 <metonymous_> umm... ok!
4118 2011-06-05 22:50:15 <metonymous_> have fun
4119 2011-06-05 22:50:18 <metonymous_> good luck with ur projet
4120 2011-06-05 22:50:20 <metonymous_> c
4121 2011-06-05 22:51:17 eoss has joined
4122 2011-06-05 22:52:36 <lupine_85> :p
4123 2011-06-05 22:55:07 inductor has joined
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4125 2011-06-05 22:56:39 <fizario> greetings
4126 2011-06-05 22:57:22 <metonymous_> hey
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4134 2011-06-05 23:05:20 <diki> does a wallet address have a fixed lenght?
4135 2011-06-05 23:05:39 <diki> *length
4136 2011-06-05 23:05:40 <metonymous_> between 27 and... 35?
4137 2011-06-05 23:05:49 <diki> darn..
4138 2011-06-05 23:06:10 <diki> i was thinking of adding a feature which would tell a user if his addr < || > than the number
4139 2011-06-05 23:06:16 <diki> but it might not work
4140 2011-06-05 23:06:31 <metonymous_> than what number?
4141 2011-06-05 23:06:41 <metonymous_> the length?
4142 2011-06-05 23:06:45 <diki> if it was fixed length, that number
4143 2011-06-05 23:06:47 <diki> but it's not
4144 2011-06-05 23:06:54 <metonymous_> ah
4145 2011-06-05 23:07:34 skeledrew has joined
4146 2011-06-05 23:08:04 <diki> it's still doable i.e < 27 or >35 but it doesnt have the same effect
4147 2011-06-05 23:08:27 <jrmithdobbs> it is fixed length though
4148 2011-06-05 23:08:30 <jrmithdobbs> just not while encoded
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4150 2011-06-05 23:08:37 <metonymous_> it's padded
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4153 2011-06-05 23:09:54 <iz> diki: what for?  to do verification or if being an address?
4154 2011-06-05 23:10:09 <iz> of it
4155 2011-06-05 23:11:11 <diki> just in case someone copied a wrong address
4156 2011-06-05 23:11:17 <diki> i.e a missing character here and there
4157 2011-06-05 23:11:32 <iz> you can use the validateaddress function
4158 2011-06-05 23:11:36 <iz> in bitcoind
4159 2011-06-05 23:11:48 <diki> what is it's function
4160 2011-06-05 23:11:57 <iz> you can access it over the rpc
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4167 2011-06-05 23:15:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping #2
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4180 2011-06-05 23:36:56 <BlueMatt> meh, nvm jgarzik Im getting off, Ill try again tomorrow
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4183 2011-06-05 23:37:24 * diki met people who dont like diablominer
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4212 2011-06-05 23:58:53 <Matson> has anyone addressed these criticisms?  http://www.pds.ewi.tudelft.nl/~victor/bitcoin.html
4213 2011-06-05 23:59:08 <Matson> a blog post from an EU postdoc, pretty negative on bitcoin
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