1 2011-06-10 00:00:00 darbsllim_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3 2011-06-10 00:00:28 <D0han> yeah, the annoying one, with fees
4 2011-06-10 00:00:41 <achim> ah ... finally the first confirmation after 25 mins :-/
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7 2011-06-10 00:01:13 <achim> but what do you mean by "%appdata%\bitcoin" I only know of $HOME/.bitcoin and there is no such file
8 2011-06-10 00:01:38 <D0han> coz its not created by default
9 2011-06-10 00:01:48 <sipa> D0han: actually, 0.3.22 already decreased the minimal fees for what data it allows to pass, so that the next version can effectively decrease it for created transactions as well
10 2011-06-10 00:01:49 <D0han> you can create one, and it will be used
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12 2011-06-10 00:02:28 <D0han> sipa: i had many 0.01 incoming transactions
13 2011-06-10 00:02:43 <D0han> and i wasnt able to spend anything without fee
14 2011-06-10 00:03:02 <sipa> yes, we're aware of the problem, so the minimal fee is being changed
15 2011-06-10 00:03:18 <sipa> nobody expected such a fast rise of the exchange rate, so 0.01 is way too high now
16 2011-06-10 00:03:57 <achim> @sipa: I'm using Linux/Gentoo and 0.3.22 beta need wxGTK-2.9 , but versions of wxGTK >= 2.8 are still hard-mask, So I can't compile this bitcoin version under Gentoo now
17 2011-06-10 00:04:18 <gmaxwell> speaking of the changeâ I wonder if the deployment of .22 is being hurt by people being advised to use .20 to avoid the low-prior fee requirement.
18 2011-06-10 00:04:41 eternal1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
19 2011-06-10 00:04:41 <achim> versions of wxGTK > 2.8 .....
20 2011-06-10 00:04:43 <zid`> unmask it..
21 2011-06-10 00:04:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: there seems to be some resistance to the deployment of .22 indeed, looking at the statistics
22 2011-06-10 00:05:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: but with .23 that'll hopefully change
23 2011-06-10 00:05:12 <achim> *lol* and then I should be surprised what else berakls my system? :-(
24 2011-06-10 00:05:26 darbsllim has joined
25 2011-06-10 00:05:27 <zid`> you use wxwidgets for other things? :P
26 2011-06-10 00:05:30 <achim> hard-mask , not softly masked
27 2011-06-10 00:05:31 <sipa> achim: BlueMatt has a patch that allows you to use wx2.8
28 2011-06-10 00:05:32 Zarutian has joined
29 2011-06-10 00:05:34 eternal1 has joined
30 2011-06-10 00:05:40 <achim> I don't knwo @zid
31 2011-06-10 00:05:47 <zid`> I use wxwidgets for 0 things
32 2011-06-10 00:05:52 <zid`> autounmask it and gogo
33 2011-06-10 00:05:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: .23 improving connectivity will be a nice selling point.
34 2011-06-10 00:06:09 <achim> so, must I use 0.3.22. .. to have a config fiel or what is the probelem?
35 2011-06-10 00:06:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: lower fees too :)
36 2011-06-10 00:06:47 <achim> (I asked where this config file is/should be) <-- start the discussion about client version :)
37 2011-06-10 00:07:24 <lfm> achim: on Linux ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.config
38 2011-06-10 00:07:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: I really think there is something wrong with the priority calculation, but I've not been able to reproduce the reported problems locally, and I don't _see_ the problem.
39 2011-06-10 00:07:40 <achim> so, I must cerate it? Can it be empty?
40 2011-06-10 00:08:02 <achim> I guess, I must read the docu and but the right things into it ;)
41 2011-06-10 00:08:05 <lfm> achim: on Linux ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf actually. It could be empty
42 2011-06-10 00:08:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: but several people in IRC have reported e.g. being unable to send 1BTC which they'd had for many hours without a fee.
43 2011-06-10 00:08:10 <achim> okay, thanks ;-)
44 2011-06-10 00:08:26 <gmaxwell> (a one input one output transaction)
45 2011-06-10 00:09:05 <achim> at least it is no network connection problem with my tarnsaction, got 3rd confirmation after 30 mins
46 2011-06-10 00:09:22 <lfm> achim: wtg
47 2011-06-10 00:09:23 <achim> thansk & good night to all
48 2011-06-10 00:09:36 <achim> yes? @lfm
49 2011-06-10 00:10:33 <lfm> nothing
50 2011-06-10 00:10:45 <achim> ok & cu
51 2011-06-10 00:10:48 achim has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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55 2011-06-10 00:13:56 <picci> people, play botcoin.com! :D
56 2011-06-10 00:14:08 <picci> now down to 0.1btc/number!
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58 2011-06-10 00:17:41 Guest1598725452 is now known as Castor_
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63 2011-06-10 00:20:36 <andrew12> it's a lot easier to dissect the bitcoin protocol by hand than it is to write code to do it
64 2011-06-10 00:20:42 <andrew12> well
65 2011-06-10 00:20:45 <andrew12> code to write it
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69 2011-06-10 00:21:29 <andrew12> anywho, is it desired that more dissections appear on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification ?
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71 2011-06-10 00:22:23 Lorenz has joined
72 2011-06-10 00:23:36 <lianj> andrew12: ?
73 2011-06-10 00:24:48 <andrew12> I've got time, and a bitcoin node, and tcpdump. Should I dissect some example packets and put them on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification ?
74 2011-06-10 00:25:09 xtalmath has joined
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76 2011-06-10 00:26:14 <Sthebig> 3
77 2011-06-10 00:26:38 <xtalmath> I think my vpn is blocking bitcoin traffic, ... how do I use socks4? I already have Tor installed with torbutton, but to be hones I dont know exactly how to enable Tor for bitcoin,... will bitcoin automatically start Tor, or I have to do it manually or leave it on eternally?
78 2011-06-10 00:26:48 <lianj> andrew12: im sure you could do this, but arent the ones on there enough?
79 2011-06-10 00:27:03 <andrew12> lianj: there aren't any for most of the commands.
80 2011-06-10 00:27:15 Moonies has joined
81 2011-06-10 00:27:17 <andrew12> ex. inv and getdataa
82 2011-06-10 00:27:24 <andrew12> maybe it should be put on a separate page?
83 2011-06-10 00:27:32 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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86 2011-06-10 00:28:29 <andrew12> that's a topic for the discussion page!
87 2011-06-10 00:28:30 sgornick has joined
88 2011-06-10 00:28:36 <andrew12> :p
89 2011-06-10 00:28:58 <Zarutian> xtalmath: turn Tor on and configure bitcoin to connect to your local tor socks4 proxy.
90 2011-06-10 00:29:25 <Zarutian> xtalmath: so long as bitcoin is running you need tor to be running also
91 2011-06-10 00:29:33 <xtalmath> I have Tor installed but other than Tor button in mozilla I dont know how to turn Tor on or off
92 2011-06-10 00:29:50 <Zarutian> xtalmath: you installed the vidalia bundle?
93 2011-06-10 00:29:54 <xtalmath> does it require me to have mozilla in tor also
94 2011-06-10 00:29:56 <lianj> oh :) so do it :D but inv and getdata is just a count + inventory vector, i found the info on the page enough though
95 2011-06-10 00:30:13 <xtalmath> I was just at the first screen of vidalia install, and it also asks me to turn tor off and on
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99 2011-06-10 00:31:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: btw that's not what i was working on re: wallet stuff just a side effect of it ;P
100 2011-06-10 00:31:19 shLONG has joined
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102 2011-06-10 00:31:22 <shLONG> hey
103 2011-06-10 00:31:26 <rgm3> Feature request for the official client: Make it easier to copy/paste addresses from the transaction history window
104 2011-06-10 00:31:29 <shLONG> where can I get hold of a faster bitcoin minder
105 2011-06-10 00:31:31 <shLONG> miner*
106 2011-06-10 00:31:40 <shLONG> I want to see how much faster the paid ones claim to be
107 2011-06-10 00:31:50 <shLONG> and why they claim that they are faster
108 2011-06-10 00:31:50 <Zarutian> xtalmath: it has been a while since I used Tor but when you have installed the vidalia bundle you should have a new program group in your start menu (on WinXP I have no idea how mangled Win7 is)
109 2011-06-10 00:32:36 <xtalmath> hmm i run ubuntu
110 2011-06-10 00:32:38 <lianj> andrew12: what took me 2 days was "signature over a hash of a simplified version of the transaction." on wiki/Transactions :)
111 2011-06-10 00:32:41 sgornick has quit (Client Quit)
112 2011-06-10 00:32:56 <Zarutian> xtalmath: latest stable version?
113 2011-06-10 00:33:33 <Zarutian> xtalmath: I can never keep up what they call each version. Last one I used was called something like Hungry Henron
114 2011-06-10 00:33:47 <xtalmath> hehehe just installed vidalia
115 2011-06-10 00:33:53 <sipa> hardy heron
116 2011-06-10 00:34:12 <GarrettB> has anyone played demon's souls?
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118 2011-06-10 00:35:56 <MagicalTux> ok that sucks, looks like someone found a way to crash our bitcoind
119 2011-06-10 00:36:11 <andrew12> uh oh
120 2011-06-10 00:36:16 <lizthegrey> andrew12: someone made a wireshark proto dumper for bitcoin wire protocol
121 2011-06-10 00:36:29 <GarrettB> MagicalTux: how?
122 2011-06-10 00:36:29 <[Tycho]> Hello, MagicalTux.
123 2011-06-10 00:36:31 <lizthegrey> if you find something it doesn't parse correctly, you should file a bug against it or send a fix
124 2011-06-10 00:36:34 <lianj> MagicalTux: got the bad packet? :)
125 2011-06-10 00:36:37 <MagicalTux> GarrettB: I dunno
126 2011-06-10 00:36:47 <andrew12> lizthegrey: i know
127 2011-06-10 00:36:50 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: bitcoin version? got a core dump?
128 2011-06-10 00:36:59 <MagicalTux> looks like it happens when many api calls happens at the same time
129 2011-06-10 00:37:04 <MagicalTux> jgarzik: 0.3.21
130 2011-06-10 00:37:19 <iera> uh
131 2011-06-10 00:37:20 <MagicalTux> maybe I should try .22 first
132 2011-06-10 00:37:32 <MagicalTux> just saw it was out~
133 2011-06-10 00:37:33 <lizthegrey> andrew12: oh, sorry, didn't read enough backscroll. my bad
134 2011-06-10 00:37:58 <andrew12> hmm
135 2011-06-10 00:37:58 <sipa> MagicalTux: i doubt .22 will fix your problem
136 2011-06-10 00:38:04 <jgarzik> agree
137 2011-06-10 00:38:27 <sipa> MagicalTux: but any information such as which rpc calls are frequently happening around the time of the crash may be useful
138 2011-06-10 00:38:38 <vegard> about how many at the same time?
139 2011-06-10 00:38:49 <MagicalTux> sipa: a lot of getnewaddress
140 2011-06-10 00:39:33 <MagicalTux> let me run bitcoind in gdb
141 2011-06-10 00:40:12 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: may we assume that bitcoind is P2P-firewalled? i.e. the mtgox node only communicates with other mtgox "bastion" nodes, and never main network?
142 2011-06-10 00:40:18 <jgarzik> -connect
143 2011-06-10 00:40:45 <MagicalTux> mostly
144 2011-06-10 00:40:54 <MagicalTux> got a few trusted nodes from other ppl too
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147 2011-06-10 00:42:58 <jgarzik> anyone know theymos' email addr?
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151 2011-06-10 00:47:51 <xtalmath> bitcoin over Tor isnt happening...
152 2011-06-10 00:48:18 <xtalmath> console shows no errors
153 2011-06-10 00:48:31 <xtalmath> somehow my client finds no new blocks...
154 2011-06-10 00:48:39 <xtalmath> stuck at
155 2011-06-10 00:48:49 <xtalmath> 129158
156 2011-06-10 00:48:53 <iera> did you try -addnode with hidden services?
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160 2011-06-10 00:52:22 <xtalmath> i tried -connect=
161 2011-06-10 00:52:36 <iera> try -addnode
162 2011-06-10 00:52:52 <spq> MagicalTux: do u have a backtrace?
163 2011-06-10 00:54:17 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
164 2011-06-10 00:56:39 <xtalmath> i see some tor bandwith usage, but still 0 connections in bitcoin
165 2011-06-10 00:58:04 Breign has quit ()
166 2011-06-10 00:58:16 <zid`> lol.. I asked someone who knows python a bit what this code does and he has no idea either
167 2011-06-10 00:58:30 <D0han> what code?
168 2011-06-10 00:58:34 <xtalmath> the one tor hidden service connects momentarily so 1 connection then immediately drops
169 2011-06-10 00:58:38 <zid`> bitcoinminer.py
170 2011-06-10 00:58:46 <iera> xtalmath: try other ones?
171 2011-06-10 00:58:50 <D0han> zid`: show me
172 2011-06-10 00:59:05 transverse has quit (Quit: Leaving)
173 2011-06-10 00:59:07 <xtalmath> wait its back on again, but dont see blocks coming in yet
174 2011-06-10 00:59:54 <zid`> f = np.zeros(8, np.uint32) data = np.array(..., dtype=np.uint32) state = np.array(..., dtype=np.uint32) state2 = partial(state, data, f)
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177 2011-06-10 01:00:56 <xtalmath> ok its back out of its connection, so neither of 2 tor hidden services work, and if -addnode gives at least some traffic then isnt the wiki wrong with stating -connect= at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor ?
178 2011-06-10 01:02:36 <iera> hm xtalmath i think the person wanted to be absolutely sure to not leak information in this case
179 2011-06-10 01:02:50 <xtalmath> ?
180 2011-06-10 01:03:14 <spq> zid`: np is numpy
181 2011-06-10 01:03:36 <zid`> yea
182 2011-06-10 01:03:37 <iera> if you to -connect with a hidden service, you sure leak no data to plaintext connections and such
183 2011-06-10 01:03:41 <zid`> no clue what the partial thing does
184 2011-06-10 01:03:58 <zid`> google suggested it was a way of calling functions
185 2011-06-10 01:04:02 <zid`> but none of those things are
186 2011-06-10 01:04:44 <spq> no, numpy is a efficient way of calculating with numbers in python
187 2011-06-10 01:05:04 <zid`> not talking about numpy
188 2011-06-10 01:05:07 <zid`> partial is from functools
189 2011-06-10 01:05:17 <spq> ah okay
190 2011-06-10 01:05:35 <zid`> ahhh
191 2011-06-10 01:05:38 <zid`> no it isn't!
192 2011-06-10 01:05:41 <zid`> someone solved it for me
193 2011-06-10 01:05:52 <zid`> it's from another file in the project
194 2011-06-10 01:06:00 * zid` hates people
195 2011-06-10 01:06:08 wistiu has joined
196 2011-06-10 01:06:27 <xtalmath> or perhaps Tor relays are blocking btc traffic?
197 2011-06-10 01:07:05 <spq> that from sha256 import * is ugly :)
198 2011-06-10 01:08:28 sabalaba has joined
199 2011-06-10 01:08:42 <zid`> I can transpose this crap into C and see if I can't get the hash input and output to coincide now, whee :P
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203 2011-06-10 01:10:32 <yrralb> hey, in my bitcoin client i have 2 of the same addresses in my address book for receiving, one which has a blank label and one which has a label i gave it
204 2011-06-10 01:10:53 <heistplay> what means time-too-old on pushpool logs? this means that the client clock is wrong?
205 2011-06-10 01:11:08 <yrralb> was this a bug that was fixed? (i have .3.21-beta)
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208 2011-06-10 01:15:35 <xtalmath> dumb me, proxy settings in gui have no effect as soon as command line gets extra parameters (have to respecify proxy=.... if I supply addnode)
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211 2011-06-10 01:16:16 <xtalmath> and difference between connect and addnode is that connect connects to the given node exclusively while addnode will result in multiple connections with different nodes
212 2011-06-10 01:16:42 trentzb has joined
213 2011-06-10 01:16:55 <iera> grr :)
214 2011-06-10 01:16:58 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: er, thats weird.
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216 2011-06-10 01:17:11 <iera> that should be a bug
217 2011-06-10 01:17:22 <lfm> ?
218 2011-06-10 01:17:27 <xtalmath> at least it downloaded 3 more blocks before halting, still connected though
219 2011-06-10 01:17:43 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
220 2011-06-10 01:17:57 <iera> lfm: gui proxy settings having no effect
221 2011-06-10 01:18:19 <iera> xtalmath: perhaps the connection is not that reliable
222 2011-06-10 01:18:36 <xtalmath> also where does gui store the proxy setting? it made no bitcoin.conf....
223 2011-06-10 01:18:36 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
224 2011-06-10 01:18:47 <xtalmath> but did remember when I reopened it
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229 2011-06-10 01:23:18 <xtalmath> ./bitcoin help
230 2011-06-10 01:23:18 <xtalmath> error: You must set rpcpassword=<password> in the configuration file:
231 2011-06-10 01:23:18 <xtalmath> /home/ludwig/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
232 2011-06-10 01:23:18 <xtalmath> If the file does not exist, create it with owner-readable-only file permissions.
233 2011-06-10 01:23:38 <xtalmath> i must set a password to see help?
234 2011-06-10 01:24:03 <lfm> ya
235 2011-06-10 01:24:13 <Diablo-D3> yes
236 2011-06-10 01:24:29 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: help is actually a json command.
237 2011-06-10 01:24:30 T_X has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
238 2011-06-10 01:24:40 <Diablo-D3> it returns the list of json commands the remote supports
239 2011-06-10 01:25:04 T_X has joined
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242 2011-06-10 01:25:19 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: I think you really want -?
243 2011-06-10 01:25:39 <xtalmath> i discovered --help before help
244 2011-06-10 01:25:49 <xtalmath> but help promised to list json commands...
245 2011-06-10 01:25:53 <lfm> ya -help and help are two different things
246 2011-06-10 01:26:11 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: help has to query the remote to get the json command list
247 2011-06-10 01:26:42 <xtalmath> --help only shows syntax of bitcoin [options] command, and says bitcoin [] help will list commands... but no command is listed in --help
248 2011-06-10 01:26:56 <lfm> right
249 2011-06-10 01:27:10 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
250 2011-06-10 01:27:10 <gribble> 129690
251 2011-06-10 01:27:15 <xtalmath> the --help menu could mention that help is for remote help
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254 2011-06-10 01:27:48 <lfm> it could say you need rpcpassword too I spoze
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256 2011-06-10 01:27:59 <xtalmath> 129161 and stuck, I now have 5 connections though...
257 2011-06-10 01:28:22 <Diablo-D3> we're at 12690
258 2011-06-10 01:28:27 <Diablo-D3> er
259 2011-06-10 01:28:31 <Diablo-D3> we're at 129690
260 2011-06-10 01:28:35 <Diablo-D3> so you're not very far
261 2011-06-10 01:28:55 <xtalmath> if i am able to start generating, does it generate on the old block or is the last hash propagated more freely between peers?
262 2011-06-10 01:29:07 <xtalmath> i come from 129598
263 2011-06-10 01:29:17 <lfm> you could try -addnode=75.158.131.108 if you want
264 2011-06-10 01:29:20 <xtalmath> it used to download blockchain very fast
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266 2011-06-10 01:30:01 <lfm> xtalmath: it is getting beigger, takes longer
267 2011-06-10 01:30:07 <xtalmath> lfm, I just got one extra block, going to see if they keep trickling in other wise ill try your ip
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269 2011-06-10 01:31:05 <xtalmath> lfm, what takes longer? the blocks are bigger? or more blocks? I used to download blocks at a faster rate much faster than I could count
270 2011-06-10 01:31:07 <echelon> how do i verify if a string is a valid address?
271 2011-06-10 01:31:08 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: you have to do it from the newest
272 2011-06-10 01:31:38 <zid`> Hmm, I would think you could move this sha256.partial call into the opencl, I wonder why it hasn't been
273 2011-06-10 01:31:44 <lfm> blocks are bigger and more of em, maybe new version is slower too, not sure
274 2011-06-10 01:31:47 caedes has joined
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277 2011-06-10 01:31:50 <xtalmath> yes! one generous node is letting me leech his blockchain
278 2011-06-10 01:31:53 <spq> echelon, you could look for the address in the blockexplorer - but it will only show there if it was used before
279 2011-06-10 01:32:42 <echelon> well, the simplest way without having to check over the network or anything
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281 2011-06-10 01:32:47 <lfm> echelon: or bitcoind validateaddress <bitcoinaddress>
282 2011-06-10 01:33:16 <echelon> yeah, the daemon won't be available locally
283 2011-06-10 01:33:27 <echelon> how does bitcoind validate
284 2011-06-10 01:34:03 <lfm> checks the format and checksum and checks to see if it is in wallet.dat for you too I think
285 2011-06-10 01:34:39 <lfm> echelon: you can run bitcoin -server and then the bitcoind commands will work
286 2011-06-10 01:34:44 <echelon> so it won't work if you're trying to validate someone else's address?
287 2011-06-10 01:35:09 <lfm> echelon: its two lines, one for valid format and one for in wallet
288 2011-06-10 01:35:48 <echelon> i'm trying to validate assuming there's no access to a bitcoin client/daemon
289 2011-06-10 01:36:10 whackedspinach has left ()
290 2011-06-10 01:36:25 <echelon> oh, you mean two separate parameters
291 2011-06-10 01:36:30 <lfm> {
292 2011-06-10 01:36:31 <lfm> "isvalid" : true,
293 2011-06-10 01:36:31 <lfm> "address" : "1h1QXYMQngBi65FvKuwtLsW8hPGUAY9ij",
294 2011-06-10 01:36:31 <lfm> "ismine" : true,
295 2011-06-10 01:36:31 <lfm> "account" : "spot12"
296 2011-06-10 01:36:31 <lfm> }
297 2011-06-10 01:36:49 <lfm> out put from one query
298 2011-06-10 01:36:52 tinyhat has joined
299 2011-06-10 01:37:34 <echelon> i guess i'll just check the bitcoind source for what the validateaddress parameter does
300 2011-06-10 01:37:39 <lfm> assuming there IS access to a client deamon
301 2011-06-10 01:38:02 <lfm> echelon: well good luck with that then
302 2011-06-10 01:38:04 kermit has joined
303 2011-06-10 01:38:15 <echelon> why, is it difficult?
304 2011-06-10 01:38:47 <lfm> can be tricky, involves stuff like is it testnet or not etc
305 2011-06-10 01:39:02 <echelon> hmm
306 2011-06-10 01:39:02 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
307 2011-06-10 01:39:54 <Graet> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14085.0
308 2011-06-10 01:42:14 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
309 2011-06-10 01:43:02 T_X has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
310 2011-06-10 01:43:42 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
311 2011-06-10 01:43:47 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
312 2011-06-10 01:43:50 <spq> ;;bc,gen 5000000
313 2011-06-10 01:43:52 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 8.86413853739 BTC per day and 0.369339105724 BTC per hour.
314 2011-06-10 01:43:52 sgornick has joined
315 2011-06-10 01:44:15 dukeleto has joined
316 2011-06-10 01:44:45 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
317 2011-06-10 01:46:30 <Zarutian> ;;bc,gen 1999999999999999999999
318 2011-06-10 01:46:31 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1999999999999999999999 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 3545655414955022 BTC per day and 1.4773564229e+14 BTC per hour.
319 2011-06-10 01:47:28 <spq> gn8
320 2011-06-10 01:49:44 eternal1 has joined
321 2011-06-10 01:51:01 <[Tycho]> Who is the author of TradeHill ?
322 2011-06-10 01:51:54 <phantomcircuit> rofl
323 2011-06-10 01:51:56 Moonies has joined
324 2011-06-10 01:52:06 <phantomcircuit> the mtgox depth of market chart overloads this system
325 2011-06-10 01:52:24 <phantomcircuit> a i3-2100 cannot handle the chart
326 2011-06-10 01:52:27 <phantomcircuit> lollllllllllllllll
327 2011-06-10 01:52:58 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya I often have to "continue" for it too
328 2011-06-10 01:53:08 <gjs278> link me
329 2011-06-10 01:53:15 <gjs278> I want to stress test
330 2011-06-10 01:53:16 <phantomcircuit> https://mtgox.com/trade/history
331 2011-06-10 01:53:22 <phantomcircuit> click depth of market
332 2011-06-10 01:53:27 <gjs278> alright
333 2011-06-10 01:53:51 <[Tycho]> You need something deep to watch Depth of Market. May be DeepBlue ? :)
334 2011-06-10 01:53:58 <gjs278> we have a continue
335 2011-06-10 01:54:15 <gjs278> 2 continues
336 2011-06-10 01:54:53 <gjs278> 3 continues
337 2011-06-10 01:54:54 <gjs278> and I got it
338 2011-06-10 01:55:04 <gjs278> only requires 4.3ghz i7
339 2011-06-10 01:55:04 <lfm> it may be nettimeouts actually
340 2011-06-10 01:55:27 <ali1234> the javascript should be rewritten to work asynchronously with a timer, then it would not freeze your browser
341 2011-06-10 01:55:27 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: I believe bitcoin consultancy had something to do with it
342 2011-06-10 01:55:33 <jgarzik> genjix etc.
343 2011-06-10 01:56:09 <gjs278> all of those bids lined up at 22
344 2011-06-10 01:56:21 <[Tycho]> jgarzik, what do you mean ?
345 2011-06-10 01:56:42 <jgarzik> <[Tycho]> Who is the author of TradeHill ? <<-- answering that question
346 2011-06-10 01:57:01 <[Tycho]> Oh, that.
347 2011-06-10 01:57:33 <[Tycho]> Lets hope it will work :)
348 2011-06-10 01:59:14 <jgarzik> heh
349 2011-06-10 01:59:34 <[Tycho]> Posted a link to it on my site.
350 2011-06-10 02:00:45 brunner has joined
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352 2011-06-10 02:01:30 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
353 2011-06-10 02:02:23 luke-jr has joined
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358 2011-06-10 02:05:09 DrewSJ has quit (Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.)
359 2011-06-10 02:07:14 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, we dont have anything to do with trade hill
360 2011-06-10 02:07:23 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ah. I stand corrected.
361 2011-06-10 02:07:23 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
362 2011-06-10 02:07:24 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, actually i think it's a phishing site
363 2011-06-10 02:07:33 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: unlikely
364 2011-06-10 02:07:50 <phantomcircuit> i tried to register and my user/pass never worked
365 2011-06-10 02:09:48 davex__ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
366 2011-06-10 02:09:59 nefario has joined
367 2011-06-10 02:11:12 Ramokk has quit ()
368 2011-06-10 02:12:27 lorph has joined
369 2011-06-10 02:12:44 denisx has joined
370 2011-06-10 02:13:34 <denisx> what happened to the total hashrate? I haven't seen a new block for some time now
371 2011-06-10 02:14:23 <lorph> hello how do I find out which shares are linked to a recently mined 50 bitcoins?
372 2011-06-10 02:14:24 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
373 2011-06-10 02:14:53 elly has joined
374 2011-06-10 02:14:57 juantelez has joined
375 2011-06-10 02:15:28 <denisx> lorph: all shares since the last block you found
376 2011-06-10 02:16:24 <juantelez> Hi
377 2011-06-10 02:16:33 <lorph> denisx: what if some of the shares were from an expired block that wasn't found by my pool
378 2011-06-10 02:16:41 <juantelez> SOmeone can give me a hand with Pythin mining on Linux?
379 2011-06-10 02:17:03 <juantelez> pls :)
380 2011-06-10 02:17:08 Wuked1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
381 2011-06-10 02:17:13 <gjs278> install poclbm
382 2011-06-10 02:17:18 <gjs278> and just run it
383 2011-06-10 02:17:25 <gjs278> ifit can't see your devices, install opencl
384 2011-06-10 02:17:35 <juantelez> Im using linuxcoin
385 2011-06-10 02:17:52 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
386 2011-06-10 02:18:07 <denisx> lorph: so what? they did work
387 2011-06-10 02:18:18 Props has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
388 2011-06-10 02:18:37 <denisx> how do you find out the txid of the generating transaction of a block ?
389 2011-06-10 02:18:38 <juantelez> gjs278: I've this exact problem --> https://174.143.149.98/smf/index.php?topic=7374.msg153252#msg153252
390 2011-06-10 02:19:07 pnicholson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
391 2011-06-10 02:19:29 <iz> juantelez: http://foreverrising.wordpress.com/tag/gpu-mining/
392 2011-06-10 02:19:43 <juantelez> iz: thanks a lot
393 2011-06-10 02:20:16 Props has joined
394 2011-06-10 02:20:22 <iz> except that isn't complete.. you also need to install AMD-APP-SDK-v2.4-lnx64.tgz
395 2011-06-10 02:20:50 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
396 2011-06-10 02:21:07 Twoheaded has quit ()
397 2011-06-10 02:21:21 <juantelez> iz: i think it-s alreayd included on linuxcoin, how can i check if sdk is installed?
398 2011-06-10 02:21:31 wolfspraul has joined
399 2011-06-10 02:22:08 <iz> hmmm.. idk for sure.. i tried linuxcoin but it wouldn't boot for me, so i followed that (and figured out i had to also install that SDK)
400 2011-06-10 02:22:57 <juantelez> ok
401 2011-06-10 02:23:04 <juantelez> thanks a lot, it
402 2011-06-10 02:23:34 <lorph> denisx: I'm trying to figure out how to make my own pool
403 2011-06-10 02:23:41 <denisx> lorph: I know ;)
404 2011-06-10 02:24:11 <lorph> i am trying to understand this https://github.com/Xenland/MiningPool/blob/master/req/cronjob/blockFound.php
405 2011-06-10 02:24:21 soossii has joined
406 2011-06-10 02:24:31 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
407 2011-06-10 02:25:11 Props has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
408 2011-06-10 02:28:02 prax has joined
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410 2011-06-10 02:28:03 prax has joined
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413 2011-06-10 02:30:02 <heistplay> hello
414 2011-06-10 02:31:23 <heistplay> what means time-too-old on pushpool logs? this means that the client clock is wrong?
415 2011-06-10 02:31:57 <lfm> heistplay: maybe or maybe the client is real slow
416 2011-06-10 02:32:27 <gjs278> my celeron falls behind on time sometimes
417 2011-06-10 02:32:32 <gjs278> like 30 seconds a day
418 2011-06-10 02:32:42 <lfm> gjs278: run a time sync app?
419 2011-06-10 02:32:43 <denisx> my atom needs two hours per share and it has no problems
420 2011-06-10 02:32:51 <gjs278> I do
421 2011-06-10 02:32:52 <gjs278> well
422 2011-06-10 02:32:55 <gjs278> not automatically
423 2011-06-10 02:33:00 <gjs278> I run it manually just to see the great difference
424 2011-06-10 02:33:10 <lfm> run like ntpd all the time
425 2011-06-10 02:33:17 <gjs278> yeah
426 2011-06-10 02:33:21 <gjs278> I start ntpd on freebsd
427 2011-06-10 02:33:25 <gjs278> but it doesn't seem to keep going
428 2011-06-10 02:33:29 <gjs278> just syncs once and that was it
429 2011-06-10 02:33:39 <gjs278> didnt really look into it that much, it only comes up like once a month
430 2011-06-10 02:33:58 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
431 2011-06-10 02:34:00 <lfm> gjs278: ntptime syncs once and quits, ntpd should keep going
432 2011-06-10 02:34:12 <gjs278> I'll see what I have
433 2011-06-10 02:34:27 <denisx> ntpdate
434 2011-06-10 02:34:35 <gjs278> yeah
435 2011-06-10 02:34:36 <lfm> there is a openntpd from openbsd now too I think
436 2011-06-10 02:34:36 <gjs278> it's ntpdate
437 2011-06-10 02:34:51 <lfm> oh ya, thats the single shot one
438 2011-06-10 02:34:57 <denisx> gjs278: you mine on freebsd?
439 2011-06-10 02:35:01 <gjs278> nah
440 2011-06-10 02:35:02 <denisx> but not with gpu?
441 2011-06-10 02:35:03 <denisx> ok
442 2011-06-10 02:35:28 <gjs278> I use it to run my site and that's about it
443 2011-06-10 02:35:37 <lfm> ntpd should be available for most any unix
444 2011-06-10 02:35:42 agricocb has joined
445 2011-06-10 02:35:53 <gjs278> yeah, I started it
446 2011-06-10 02:35:56 <denisx> gjs278: what is your site?
447 2011-06-10 02:35:57 <gjs278> it was due to not having ntpd in rc.conf
448 2011-06-10 02:36:00 <gjs278> garyshood.com
449 2011-06-10 02:36:01 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
450 2011-06-10 02:36:10 <gjs278> I forgot that you have to add every daemon to rc.conf in freebsd
451 2011-06-10 02:36:16 <gjs278> to have it even start like that
452 2011-06-10 02:36:29 <lfm> gjs278: what server(s) do oyu have in /etc/ntpd.conf then?
453 2011-06-10 02:36:54 <gjs278> server 0.pool.ntp.org
454 2011-06-10 02:36:55 <gjs278> server 1.pool.ntp.org
455 2011-06-10 02:37:02 <lfm> ok, should be good
456 2011-06-10 02:37:06 <denisx> /etc/rc.d/ntpd onestart
457 2011-06-10 02:37:09 agricocb has joined
458 2011-06-10 02:37:16 <gjs278> onestart
459 2011-06-10 02:37:18 <gjs278> I will remember that
460 2011-06-10 02:37:18 <denisx> and maybe force
461 2011-06-10 02:37:28 <gjs278> I always ask nicely first
462 2011-06-10 02:37:55 <lfm> gjs278: that should keep the clock synced quite well
463 2011-06-10 02:38:12 <gjs278> yeah
464 2011-06-10 02:38:23 <gjs278> rc.conf was my downfall, I didn't think of it
465 2011-06-10 02:38:41 gsathya has joined
466 2011-06-10 02:39:01 <denisx> echo "ntpd=YES" >> /etc/rc.conf
467 2011-06-10 02:39:15 <gjs278> yeah
468 2011-06-10 02:39:31 <gjs278> thats like the first maintanence I've had to do in years for this
469 2011-06-10 02:39:34 <gjs278> besides updating apache
470 2011-06-10 02:39:42 <lfm> hehe
471 2011-06-10 02:40:14 <denisx> now we know that your box has all exploits still working! ;)
472 2011-06-10 02:40:18 <gjs278> oh yes
473 2011-06-10 02:40:41 <gjs278> if anything on it is going to be exploited, it's the shoutcast
474 2011-06-10 02:40:48 <gjs278> I never pay attention to updates on it
475 2011-06-10 02:41:20 SamWhited has left ("Leaving")
476 2011-06-10 02:42:10 johnnympereira5 has joined
477 2011-06-10 02:42:30 <lfm> gjs278: you check the fans for dust every year or so I hope maybe?
478 2011-06-10 02:42:55 <gjs278> I'll have to see what temps are
479 2011-06-10 02:43:06 <gjs278> it has a lot of fans
480 2011-06-10 02:43:38 <gjs278> it was on day 265 of uptime and the power went out
481 2011-06-10 02:43:49 <gjs278> but that was just in time for the next up of freebsd
482 2011-06-10 02:44:05 <lfm> Iv had boxes like that when I get around to them half the fans are ceased and the ones still working are quite clogged
483 2011-06-10 02:44:33 <denisx> I updated some machines yesterday because zfs v28 was released on STABLE
484 2011-06-10 02:44:55 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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487 2011-06-10 02:47:32 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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490 2011-06-10 02:51:10 wood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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492 2011-06-10 02:53:05 <lolcat> How can I see how many times a transaction has been verified in bitcoind?
493 2011-06-10 02:53:48 <gjs278> bitcoind listtransactions
494 2011-06-10 02:55:01 metonymous has joined
495 2011-06-10 02:55:41 homecable has joined
496 2011-06-10 02:55:50 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
497 2011-06-10 02:56:55 kermit has joined
498 2011-06-10 02:57:37 <lolcat> "fee" : -0.01000000,
499 2011-06-10 02:57:43 <lolcat> Dammit, how do I remove the fee?
500 2011-06-10 02:58:14 Rudycoin has joined
501 2011-06-10 02:58:23 <jgarzik> lolcat: -paytxfee=0
502 2011-06-10 02:58:51 <jgarzik> lolcat: if your TX is unusually large, a fee is required. this is, as the word implies, unusual :)
503 2011-06-10 02:59:21 <lolcat> I sent 3 btc that was sent to me incorrectly back to the person who owned them
504 2011-06-10 03:00:16 <Netsniper> is this from a regular in here or the forums? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLt8Se3vVNg
505 2011-06-10 03:00:29 <denisx> is a gigahash = 1024 megahash or 1000 megahash?
506 2011-06-10 03:01:17 <luke-jr> 1000
507 2011-06-10 03:01:36 <denisx> ok
508 2011-06-10 03:01:45 <luke-jr> denisx: however, a millhash is 4096 hash :P
509 2011-06-10 03:04:25 perplexes has joined
510 2011-06-10 03:05:08 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r3a7415146728 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/viewratingdetail.php: OTCWebsite: escape html in rating notes http://tinyurl.com/3swzgys
511 2011-06-10 03:11:36 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Remote host closed the connection)
512 2011-06-10 03:11:53 <luke-jr> nanotube: good idea
513 2011-06-10 03:17:51 Lorenz has joined
514 2011-06-10 03:18:45 skeledrew has joined
515 2011-06-10 03:19:01 <gjs278> I htmlentities() myself
516 2011-06-10 03:20:20 pRjck3vC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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518 2011-06-10 03:21:33 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
519 2011-06-10 03:22:24 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
520 2011-06-10 03:23:03 stahi has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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522 2011-06-10 03:23:34 <lorph> is it possible to edit bitcoind so it takes less than 120 confirms to use mined bitcoins
523 2011-06-10 03:24:08 <luke-jr> lorph: yes
524 2011-06-10 03:24:11 <luke-jr> down to 100
525 2011-06-10 03:25:12 <lorph> it won't go lower than 100?
526 2011-06-10 03:25:52 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
527 2011-06-10 03:26:03 dissipate has joined
528 2011-06-10 03:26:03 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
529 2011-06-10 03:26:03 dissipate has joined
530 2011-06-10 03:26:22 <luke-jr> lorph: the network will reject it until it reaches 100
531 2011-06-10 03:26:35 <gjs278> are you trying to pay your pool early
532 2011-06-10 03:27:35 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
533 2011-06-10 03:27:42 TheSeven has joined
534 2011-06-10 03:27:53 <lorph> yes, I'm wondering why it takes so long
535 2011-06-10 03:28:41 <gjs278> well
536 2011-06-10 03:28:46 <gjs278> as convenient as it can be
537 2011-06-10 03:28:56 <gjs278> I wouldn't pay early trying to use that block
538 2011-06-10 03:29:06 <gjs278> because an invalid could cost you over $1000 now
539 2011-06-10 03:29:24 <lorph> what are the chances a block is invalid per confirm?
540 2011-06-10 03:29:32 <gjs278> very low
541 2011-06-10 03:30:42 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
542 2011-06-10 03:31:16 gsathya has joined
543 2011-06-10 03:32:10 <[Tycho]> May be 101 is better ? :)
544 2011-06-10 03:32:40 ezl- has joined
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547 2011-06-10 03:33:33 kisom_dev is now known as Guest42206
548 2011-06-10 03:33:57 <jgarzik> lorph: if there is a block chain reorg, anybody spending recently mined coins could simply have their coins disappear
549 2011-06-10 03:34:01 <jgarzik> lorph: hence the safety delay
550 2011-06-10 03:34:25 Guest42206 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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560 2011-06-10 03:41:24 xtalmath has joined
561 2011-06-10 03:41:58 Rudycoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
562 2011-06-10 03:42:14 <xtalmath> who runs mt gox? please notify him that his megachart is a bit outdated, the top value is 20usd, while we passed that for a while, cutting of the graph
563 2011-06-10 03:43:09 Klash_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
564 2011-06-10 03:43:47 <yrralb> xtalmath: magicaltux, he is usually on bitcoin-otc
565 2011-06-10 03:44:25 <MagicalTux> yep I know
566 2011-06-10 03:44:28 <MagicalTux> fixing dwolla comes before
567 2011-06-10 03:45:01 <picci> magicaltux!
568 2011-06-10 03:45:04 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
569 2011-06-10 03:45:25 <xtalmath> its just a small constant that needs to be changed (you could use a moving average and do *1.2 for eye candy)
570 2011-06-10 03:45:52 <MagicalTux> xtalmath: it's a few small constants
571 2011-06-10 03:45:57 LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
572 2011-06-10 03:45:59 <MagicalTux> and not documented, so a pain each time
573 2011-06-10 03:46:09 <xtalmath> I am willing to fix it for a bitcoin or 2?
574 2011-06-10 03:46:12 <xtalmath> :D
575 2011-06-10 03:46:23 <xtalmath> I study physics, my math is ok
576 2011-06-10 03:47:20 <xtalmath> other question: I can view graphs of the trading data, but id like to do some correlation tests, check effect of weekends etc on the value the market perceives...
577 2011-06-10 03:47:46 <forexmasterja> I have a quick question what does the volume mean on the exchanges like bitcoinwatc ? is it the number of coins being traded ?
578 2011-06-10 03:48:09 <[Tycho]> What do those green and red polygons mean on the megachart ? Doesn't looks like candles
579 2011-06-10 03:48:16 <xtalmath> is it possible to get buys and sells data in csv or other format from a while back (as far as it gets) till now?
580 2011-06-10 03:49:25 <xtalmath> I would like to do some HHT (hilbert huang transforms) and other investigations...
581 2011-06-10 03:49:58 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
582 2011-06-10 03:50:04 <xtalmath> If I can distill some usefull metrics I could let you in on inside knowledge
583 2011-06-10 03:53:31 <jackmcbarn> is there a changelog for bitcoin's releases?
584 2011-06-10 03:53:59 <andrew12> probably not :P
585 2011-06-10 03:54:41 <xtalmath> ;;bc,block
586 2011-06-10 03:54:42 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
587 2011-06-10 03:54:57 <gjs278> ;;bc,blocks
588 2011-06-10 03:54:58 <gribble> 129703
589 2011-06-10 03:55:08 tippenein has joined
590 2011-06-10 03:55:16 <xtalmath> jackmcbarn: you can use diff to spot the changes
591 2011-06-10 03:55:25 <tippenein> anyone know why my pyopencl.pyo files would be missing from poclbm if I DO have the AMD APP SDK downloaded?
592 2011-06-10 03:55:48 <gjs278> post error message
593 2011-06-10 03:57:16 <tippenein> File "pyopencl\__init__.pyo", line 3 etc etc ---- ImportError: DLL load failed
594 2011-06-10 03:58:13 <tippenein> this happens when I directly try poclbm.exe from cmd line in windows 7
595 2011-06-10 03:58:16 Rudycoin has joined
596 2011-06-10 03:58:16 <gjs278> you're trying to use straight poclbm on windows
597 2011-06-10 03:58:16 gwelymernan is now known as a_girl
598 2011-06-10 03:58:16 glicth-mod is now known as glitch-mod
599 2011-06-10 03:58:17 <gjs278> oh
600 2011-06-10 03:58:19 <gjs278> well
601 2011-06-10 03:58:32 <gjs278> skip it and just use poclbm-gui
602 2011-06-10 03:59:09 <tippenein> thanks, i'll try it
603 2011-06-10 03:59:23 <gjs278> it works well, plus you can do all of your miners in the one interface with fallback
604 2011-06-10 04:00:44 <tippenein> says no opencl devices found and I should DL ATI stream sdk
605 2011-06-10 04:00:54 <JFK911> do it
606 2011-06-10 04:01:00 <tippenein> did
607 2011-06-10 04:01:48 <gjs278> what version
608 2011-06-10 04:01:50 <gjs278> also
609 2011-06-10 04:01:51 <gjs278> are you on xp
610 2011-06-10 04:02:00 <tippenein> windows 7
611 2011-06-10 04:02:04 <gjs278> well
612 2011-06-10 04:02:07 <gjs278> that's interesting
613 2011-06-10 04:02:09 <gjs278> what's your card
614 2011-06-10 04:02:23 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
615 2011-06-10 04:02:47 <tippenein> ati 5770
616 2011-06-10 04:03:01 a_girl has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
617 2011-06-10 04:03:07 <gjs278> ok
618 2011-06-10 04:03:14 <gjs278> what version of the sdk did you install
619 2011-06-10 04:03:20 <gjs278> also what driver version
620 2011-06-10 04:03:26 <tippenein> i think 2.0. let me check
621 2011-06-10 04:03:30 <gjs278> you need
622 2011-06-10 04:03:31 <gjs278> 3.1
623 2011-06-10 04:03:33 <gjs278> er
624 2011-06-10 04:03:34 <gjs278> 2.1
625 2011-06-10 04:03:36 <gjs278> 2.1 for sure
626 2011-06-10 04:03:37 <gjs278> get that instead
627 2011-06-10 04:03:44 nefario has left ()
628 2011-06-10 04:04:06 <nanotube> luke-jr: :)
629 2011-06-10 04:04:41 <gjs278> why htmlspecialcharacters the nickname
630 2011-06-10 04:04:46 <gjs278> but not in the url as well
631 2011-06-10 04:05:02 <nanotube> gjs278: is "htmlentities" any "better" than htmlspecialchars?
632 2011-06-10 04:05:05 <tippenein> can't find a download of 2.1
633 2011-06-10 04:05:11 <gjs278> I think special covers you
634 2011-06-10 04:05:23 <gjs278> I always just entities, I learned that one first
635 2011-06-10 04:05:38 perplexes has quit (Quit: perplexes)
636 2011-06-10 04:05:39 <gjs278> thankfully you can't make your irc nick have " or <> in it though
637 2011-06-10 04:05:49 <gjs278> so I guess nobody can really mess with the url or the actual nick on page
638 2011-06-10 04:09:13 tippenein has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
639 2011-06-10 04:10:36 <gjs278> nanotube: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3623236/htmlspecialchars-vs-htmlentities-when-concerned-with-xss
640 2011-06-10 04:10:41 <gjs278> that's my only real reason I guess
641 2011-06-10 04:10:49 <gjs278> rare exploits involving weird charsets
642 2011-06-10 04:11:05 <gjs278> that probably aren't even possible in an irc nick
643 2011-06-10 04:11:05 metonymous has quit (Quit: metonymous)
644 2011-06-10 04:13:48 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
645 2011-06-10 04:14:03 legion050 has joined
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648 2011-06-10 04:14:36 <tippenein> so... just downloaded ati stream sdk 2.1 and restarted and still get no opencl with my 5770 card.. wtf?
649 2011-06-10 04:14:48 <gjs278> well
650 2011-06-10 04:14:51 <doc_m> hey guys, so is deepbit's predominance a problem, and could it get worse as they make more money?
651 2011-06-10 04:14:54 <gjs278> that is interesting
652 2011-06-10 04:15:13 Rudycoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
653 2011-06-10 04:15:16 <gjs278> tippenein: install the very very very latest ati-drivers 11.5.
654 2011-06-10 04:15:18 <gjs278> check poclbm-gui
655 2011-06-10 04:15:30 <gjs278> that's all I've ever had to do to get it working
656 2011-06-10 04:15:31 <tippenein> i am trying it from poclbm-gui
657 2011-06-10 04:15:39 <gjs278> because they bundle opencl now with the drivers
658 2011-06-10 04:15:50 <gjs278> so just let them do their thing on the latest and see if poclbm-gui will see it then
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664 2011-06-10 04:17:44 <nanotube> gjs278: thanks :)
665 2011-06-10 04:18:35 toffoo has joined
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677 2011-06-10 04:23:44 <tippenein> wow... still nothing after downloading 11.5
678 2011-06-10 04:23:53 <tippenein> drivers from ati
679 2011-06-10 04:24:00 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
680 2011-06-10 04:24:08 <gjs278> lame
681 2011-06-10 04:24:23 Schematografter has joined
682 2011-06-10 04:24:24 <tippenein> i've had nothing but terrible luck with getting bitcoin miners started
683 2011-06-10 04:24:34 <tippenein> not so surprised that this went the same
684 2011-06-10 04:24:46 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
685 2011-06-10 04:26:58 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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689 2011-06-10 04:31:01 <tippenein> hell ass. Well.. g'night all. thanks gjs278
690 2011-06-10 04:31:11 <gjs278> yeah
691 2011-06-10 04:31:22 <gjs278> maybe go for the uninstall all drivers, reinstall
692 2011-06-10 04:31:29 <gjs278> only thing I can think of from there
693 2011-06-10 04:32:23 tippenein has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
694 2011-06-10 04:32:55 gjs278 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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705 2011-06-10 04:39:52 Schematografter is now known as Moonies
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709 2011-06-10 04:51:04 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
710 2011-06-10 04:51:39 Bitcoindude has joined
711 2011-06-10 04:52:13 <Bitcoindude> How I can use tor at freenode?
712 2011-06-10 04:53:09 <Bitcoindude> I already read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor but when im trying to log in to server it says only SASL can join or something
713 2011-06-10 04:53:32 <gjs278> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor#Add_SASL_support_to_your_mIRC_installation
714 2011-06-10 04:53:44 <Bitcoindude> I made everything right. expect didn't find sasl.mrc
715 2011-06-10 04:54:00 <gjs278> you have to find them somewhere else
716 2011-06-10 04:54:02 <gjs278> they are a download
717 2011-06-10 04:54:17 <Bitcoindude> i downloaded but it wasnt a file
718 2011-06-10 04:54:37 <Bitcoindude> i didnt find it anywhere. it was only text and i made it just sasl.mrc file
719 2011-06-10 04:54:45 legion050 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
720 2011-06-10 04:54:58 <gjs278> you need the dll too
721 2011-06-10 04:55:05 <Bitcoindude> i found the dll
722 2011-06-10 04:55:17 <Bitcoindude> but now .mrc
723 2011-06-10 04:55:20 <Bitcoindude> not*
724 2011-06-10 04:55:21 <gjs278> Load sasl.mrc script (Alt + R to open script editor, Ctrl + L to load file, browse to sasl.mrc, press OK or "save & exit").
725 2011-06-10 04:55:26 <gjs278> oh
726 2011-06-10 04:55:28 <gjs278> ok
727 2011-06-10 04:55:38 <gjs278> not sure where it would be but I can't imagine it would be hard to google
728 2011-06-10 04:55:46 <Bitcoindude> i made that. i mean i have to put sasl.mrc to mirc directory first
729 2011-06-10 04:56:11 <Bitcoindude> if u could help I would be glad :)
730 2011-06-10 04:56:43 <gjs278> uhh
731 2011-06-10 04:56:55 <gjs278> well go here, http://freenode.net/sasl/sasl.mrc
732 2011-06-10 04:56:58 <gjs278> file save as in firefox
733 2011-06-10 04:57:02 <gjs278> throw it in the dir of mirc
734 2011-06-10 04:57:06 <gjs278> and then do the load
735 2011-06-10 04:58:55 d4de has joined
736 2011-06-10 04:59:55 <Bitcoindude> ill try
737 2011-06-10 05:00:16 Bitcoindude has quit ()
738 2011-06-10 05:02:21 picci has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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742 2011-06-10 05:05:47 JRWR has quit (Read error: No route to host)
743 2011-06-10 05:06:48 errydayimgenerat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
744 2011-06-10 05:07:16 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
745 2011-06-10 05:07:39 JRWR has joined
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747 2011-06-10 05:07:40 JRWR has joined
748 2011-06-10 05:08:56 Bitcoindude has joined
749 2011-06-10 05:09:04 <Bitcoindude> naah it didn't worked
750 2011-06-10 05:09:05 davex__ has joined
751 2011-06-10 05:09:05 EPiSKiNG- has joined
752 2011-06-10 05:09:28 <Bitcoindude> "gateway/tor-sasl/account (SASL access only)" when trying to connect freenode onion irc
753 2011-06-10 05:10:09 <Bitcoindude> don't know why
754 2011-06-10 05:10:38 <Bitcoindude> still when im trying to join random freenode server it keeps me disconnecting because the SASL. lol
755 2011-06-10 05:10:55 fimp has joined
756 2011-06-10 05:12:33 d4de has joined
757 2011-06-10 05:16:43 <gjs278> lame
758 2011-06-10 05:17:22 Dayofswords has joined
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760 2011-06-10 05:18:14 <Dayofswords> so, is this the bitcoin software dev channel?
761 2011-06-10 05:18:36 <gjs278> yes
762 2011-06-10 05:19:05 <Dayofswords> wel i think i may have ran into a bug or something on 0.3.22 that broke from 0.3.21
763 2011-06-10 05:20:20 <gjs278> what is it
764 2011-06-10 05:20:32 vegard has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
765 2011-06-10 05:21:08 llrcombs has left ("Bye")
766 2011-06-10 05:21:33 <Dayofswords> I was trying to set up solo mining for testnet just to feel falsy rich, and used these setting for 0.3.22 http://pastebin.com/sfsExcBX
767 2011-06-10 05:22:06 <gjs278> what happens
768 2011-06-10 05:22:09 nefario_ has joined
769 2011-06-10 05:22:31 <Dayofswords> after it downloaded all of testnet's blocks it went to using 100% of a CPU core and not responding to the miners tryin gto get work
770 2011-06-10 05:22:46 nefario_ has left ()
771 2011-06-10 05:22:51 <Dayofswords> i downgraded to 0.3.21 and changed nothing at all and it worked completely fine
772 2011-06-10 05:24:44 MartianW has joined
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775 2011-06-10 05:28:11 <Dayofswords> I assume this is bad thing...
776 2011-06-10 05:28:44 <gmaxwell> Dayofswords: did you build the .22 yourself?
777 2011-06-10 05:29:30 <Dayofswords> no, it's the zipped copy from the website
778 2011-06-10 05:30:30 <Dayofswords> windows 32bit build btw
779 2011-06-10 05:31:51 Jkessler has joined
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785 2011-06-10 05:37:34 <Dayofswords> If you want,I have a zipped up copy of .21 and .22 and phonix miner using phatk to show it's... uh.. brokenness
786 2011-06-10 05:37:43 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
787 2011-06-10 05:37:54 <Dayofswords> all the settings there
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798 2011-06-10 05:48:31 <Dayofswords> anyways.... yeah it's broken when using the same settings...
799 2011-06-10 05:57:21 Backburn is now known as BitBot
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818 2011-06-10 06:21:52 <netxshare> would I have any issues with bitcoin 0.3.20.2 connecting to the network?
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841 2011-06-10 06:47:36 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r65ee333 / src/net.cpp :
842 2011-06-10 06:47:36 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Merge pull request #304 from TheBlueMatt/cpufix
843 2011-06-10 06:47:36 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Fix CPU Usage bug when using -nolisten and have no connections. - http://bit.ly/l4TOWq
844 2011-06-10 06:47:37 lumos has joined
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847 2011-06-10 06:48:20 <theymos> Are there any logs of this channel that have one page per day? I like to search for certain words. (The one I was using is now broken.)
848 2011-06-10 06:51:37 <lumos> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLl3aPAiloc
849 2011-06-10 06:51:50 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
850 2011-06-10 06:53:23 <theymos> New BBE page: http://blockexplorer.com/q/reorglog . It has a list of the reorgs BBE has seen, which is useful for detecting tampering with the network. (I already mentioned this on the forum, but not on IRC.)
851 2011-06-10 06:54:31 <doc_m> thanks
852 2011-06-10 06:54:40 <doc_m> um wow 3 reorgs in the last 2 days
853 2011-06-10 06:54:41 <doc_m> wtf?
854 2011-06-10 06:55:22 <theymos> That is a bit higher than normal, but it's OK to have non-sequential blocks replaced from time to time.
855 2011-06-10 06:55:48 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
856 2011-06-10 06:56:19 <doc_m> who ends up getting those blocks usually?
857 2011-06-10 06:56:24 <doc_m> can you put who was awarded them?
858 2011-06-10 06:56:42 <doc_m> I mean the ones that did the replacing,
859 2011-06-10 06:57:36 <theymos> The current blocks at the listed numbers are the blocks that the old blocks were replaced with.
860 2011-06-10 06:57:59 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Quit: www.FaceFox.com)
861 2011-06-10 06:58:12 <theymos> These cases are just accidents caused by network latency -- they're not deliberate (probably).
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873 2011-06-10 07:07:43 <mrh00d> has anyone made a BTC shopping cart for public use?
874 2011-06-10 07:08:01 <theymos> MyBitcoin and MtGox have shopping cart APIs.
875 2011-06-10 07:08:08 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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884 2011-06-10 07:11:55 <Superbest> chan
885 2011-06-10 07:12:55 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6de1326 / src/main.h : Lower minimum relay TX fee to 0.0001 (from 0.0005) BTC. - http://bit.ly/kKYZZ9
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892 2011-06-10 07:20:12 Cryo is now known as Guest27740
893 2011-06-10 07:20:19 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6854a2a / doc/release-process.txt : Add minimal release process docs. - http://bit.ly/mJ5pLc
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897 2011-06-10 07:23:42 <Dayofswords> hey, so, anyone here of the bug i may have found?
898 2011-06-10 07:24:18 <Dayofswords> tried to tell gmax but i think he was busy...
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907 2011-06-10 07:31:39 <midnightmagic> what bug?
908 2011-06-10 07:32:54 MB123789 has joined
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910 2011-06-10 07:34:21 <Dayofswords> (copy patse) wel i think i may have ran into a bug or something on 0.3.22 that broke from 0.3.21 . I was trying to set up solo mining for testnet just to feel false sense of being rich, and used these setting for 0.3.22 http://pastebin.com/sfsExcBX (.bat used to open bitcoin) after it downloaded all of testnet's blocks it went to using 100% of a CPU core and not responding to the miners trying to get work. I downgraded to 0.3.21 an
911 2011-06-10 07:35:48 <Dayofswords> I have a zip file that has both version and a opencl miner and tested it, it indeed didn't work
912 2011-06-10 07:36:03 <nathan7> Hi midnightmagic
913 2011-06-10 07:36:07 <xenland> ;;bc,gen 700000
914 2011-06-10 07:36:08 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 700000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 1.24097939523 BTC per day and 0.0517074748014 BTC per hour.
915 2011-06-10 07:36:12 <Dayofswords> with the same exact settings, nothing chnaged
916 2011-06-10 07:36:21 xenland has quit (Quit: IRC for iPhone)
917 2011-06-10 07:36:30 patzak has quit (Quit: patzak)
918 2011-06-10 07:36:38 LightRider has quit (afk!~LightRide@unaffiliated/lightrider|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
919 2011-06-10 07:37:36 <nathan7> hmm, fun
920 2011-06-10 07:37:42 <nathan7> nathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py
921 2011-06-10 07:37:42 <nathan7> 409.685023 Euros
922 2011-06-10 07:37:43 <nathan7> :D
923 2011-06-10 07:37:47 * nathan7 hugs midnightmagic
924 2011-06-10 07:38:21 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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927 2011-06-10 07:39:47 * alystair MagicalTux are you looking for someone to redesign the mtgox frontend?
928 2011-06-10 07:39:54 <alystair> er
929 2011-06-10 07:39:55 <alystair> fail
930 2011-06-10 07:40:08 <alystair> I need to step away from mirc
931 2011-06-10 07:41:31 bk128 has joined
932 2011-06-10 07:43:11 <Neskia> hmm.. so ive noticed something, my client 0.3.22 now forces me to pay a 0.01 fee, no matter what... I transfer 3 BTC its a fee, i transfer 0.4 btc, its a fee.. i transfer 10 BTC.. another fee.. even though ive set the tx to 0.005 then for the last two (0.4 and 1.2) i had it at 0.00
933 2011-06-10 07:43:48 <nathan7> alystair: True dat.
934 2011-06-10 07:44:01 * nathan7 hops off
935 2011-06-10 07:44:23 <alystair> where does the fee go to?
936 2011-06-10 07:44:38 <Neskia> i'm assuming its going to the block cracker.
937 2011-06-10 07:44:39 <Neskia> :p
938 2011-06-10 07:44:40 <Neskia> the miners.
939 2011-06-10 07:46:59 <Neskia> like here was that 0.4BTC transaction, http://blockexplorer.com/tx/55eb7ea2c876a5aa634f057a7803974213a402d6639b58a1f6a2ddff87cf2e2a
940 2011-06-10 07:47:22 <alystair> so wait
941 2011-06-10 07:47:32 <alystair> not only does the person whom unlocks a block gets 50bc
942 2011-06-10 07:47:38 <Neskia> oh
943 2011-06-10 07:47:41 <Neskia> you're new here arnt you.
944 2011-06-10 07:47:42 <Neskia> :p
945 2011-06-10 07:48:06 <Neskia> the 50BTC is simply to increase the monitary value to ~21million
946 2011-06-10 07:48:13 <Neskia> the real reward is the transaction fee
947 2011-06-10 07:48:21 <Neskia> since the miners are the ones who are proofing the transactions.
948 2011-06-10 07:50:54 MBS has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
949 2011-06-10 07:52:28 zyb has joined
950 2011-06-10 07:53:07 Guest90212 has joined
951 2011-06-10 07:53:37 anddam has joined
952 2011-06-10 07:53:40 <anddam> hello
953 2011-06-10 07:56:35 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
954 2011-06-10 07:57:07 <midnightmagic> nathan7: :-) lol it would amuse me greatly if, one day, those ฿ made you a millionaire.
955 2011-06-10 07:59:30 <anddam> a bitclionaire
956 2011-06-10 08:00:25 Guest42148 has joined
957 2011-06-10 08:01:10 <doc_m> is there any DNS that connects to the .bit domain sites?
958 2011-06-10 08:02:04 <GarrettB> namecoin.us
959 2011-06-10 08:02:05 <GarrettB> iirc
960 2011-06-10 08:02:33 <doc_m> ah so its not a toplevel domain?
961 2011-06-10 08:02:37 <doc_m> SHAME!!
962 2011-06-10 08:02:52 <nathan7> doc_m: If we can get enough ISPs to set it up..
963 2011-06-10 08:02:58 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
964 2011-06-10 08:03:10 <doc_m> you only really need a cople,
965 2011-06-10 08:03:13 <doc_m> couple even
966 2011-06-10 08:05:29 <doc_m> if you got the google DNS or opendns to support it for example
967 2011-06-10 08:05:29 <doc_m> or the tor guys
968 2011-06-10 08:05:29 <nathan7> Me to classmate: "Ohai there!" reply: "Die."
969 2011-06-10 08:05:29 <nathan7> that's not nice :(
970 2011-06-10 08:05:29 AAA_awright_ has joined
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977 2011-06-10 08:11:02 <aximilation> so what's the favorite mining pool you guys use?
978 2011-06-10 08:11:10 <aximilation> for those not soloing
979 2011-06-10 08:12:51 <MartianW> aximilation, pick a small one to prevent the 50% problem.
980 2011-06-10 08:13:00 <MartianW> I'm planning to use Eligius once I get my rig up.
981 2011-06-10 08:13:01 <aximilation> which 50% problem?
982 2011-06-10 08:13:02 <MartianW> (Still waiting on the card)
983 2011-06-10 08:13:05 <doc_m> eligius
984 2011-06-10 08:13:10 <doc_m> its the cheapest
985 2011-06-10 08:13:34 Bitcoinmaker has joined
986 2011-06-10 08:13:36 <doc_m> also its not deepbit which is kinda dominating the market (bad for bitcoin)
987 2011-06-10 08:13:37 <aximilation> I started with bitcoinpool, heard good things about slush pool, not so good about deepbit or btcguild
988 2011-06-10 08:13:50 <doc_m> slush doesn't do long polling
989 2011-06-10 08:13:55 <aximilation> define?
990 2011-06-10 08:14:47 <doc_m> it doesn't tell you immediately when a block is found so you can start on the next one
991 2011-06-10 08:14:52 <doc_m> so you wast e a lot of hashes
992 2011-06-10 08:14:55 <aximilation> ah
993 2011-06-10 08:15:06 <sipa> typically less than 1% gain, though
994 2011-06-10 08:15:09 <doc_m> and eligius just found a block
995 2011-06-10 08:15:17 <doc_m> depends on how fast you are
996 2011-06-10 08:15:22 <doc_m> it helps the really slow folks a lot
997 2011-06-10 08:15:27 MartianW has left ("Bye all.")
998 2011-06-10 08:15:32 <doc_m> as it takes me quite a while to work through a share
999 2011-06-10 08:15:36 <aximilation> doc_m: what did you mean by the 50% problem?
1000 2011-06-10 08:16:00 <sipa> aximilation: someone who has 50% of the mining capacity of the network is theoretically able to do some attacks
1001 2011-06-10 08:16:14 Teslah has joined
1002 2011-06-10 08:16:18 <sipa> well, not only theoretically, but so far, it hasn't happened
1003 2011-06-10 08:16:21 <doc_m> so its in our best interest to not allow anyone to get anywhere near 50%
1004 2011-06-10 08:16:28 <aximilation> Right now I'm doing a collective ~30Mh/s, waiting to grab a new card.
1005 2011-06-10 08:16:34 <aximilation> ohh ok
1006 2011-06-10 08:16:51 <aximilation> so if any given pool had 50% of the processing power they could do dirty stuff
1007 2011-06-10 08:17:11 <lfm> It HAS happened on testnet
1008 2011-06-10 08:17:13 <doc_m> also the kind of cash that deepbit's operators are pulling right now means they could really create some prety incredible hashing speed if they wanted
1009 2011-06-10 08:17:53 <aximilation> My goal is to make some hardware pay for itself and start building more machines with the profits
1010 2011-06-10 08:18:15 <lfm> aximilation: have fun
1011 2011-06-10 08:18:21 <aximilation> potentially making a private pool of my own machines if things remain profitable :D
1012 2011-06-10 08:18:23 toffoo has quit ()
1013 2011-06-10 08:18:32 <aximilation> how have you guys done so far?
1014 2011-06-10 08:18:49 <lfm> aximilation: note that we cant really promise you it will remain profitable
1015 2011-06-10 08:18:52 Stellar has joined
1016 2011-06-10 08:18:56 <aximilation> of cource
1017 2011-06-10 08:19:05 <aximilation> *course
1018 2011-06-10 08:22:46 <sipa> jgarzik: is select() available on all platforms?
1019 2011-06-10 08:22:48 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1020 2011-06-10 08:23:04 <lfm> aximilation: or dont want to publicly say how much for any number of reasons
1021 2011-06-10 08:23:28 <aximilation> fair enough :P
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1029 2011-06-10 08:28:39 <sipa> jgarzik: nvm, didn't read your comment completely, it seems
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1045 2011-06-10 08:37:41 <da2ce7> forum.bitcoin.org is really slow!
1046 2011-06-10 08:38:04 <lfm> aximilation: not a lot no
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1056 2011-06-10 08:49:37 <lfm> I figure if difficulty goes up another factor of ten it will no longer be profitable for most GPUs
1057 2011-06-10 08:49:52 plutonic has joined
1058 2011-06-10 08:50:02 <lfm> assuming price stays near current
1059 2011-06-10 08:52:06 <mtrlt> ?
1060 2011-06-10 08:52:12 retinal has quit ()
1061 2011-06-10 08:52:17 <mtrlt> it will still have a 100% profit margin for me at least
1062 2011-06-10 08:52:24 <mtrlt> even if difficulty goes up tenfold
1063 2011-06-10 08:52:49 <lfm> what gpu do you use?
1064 2011-06-10 08:53:14 <mtrlt> 4*6990 and one 5850
1065 2011-06-10 08:53:43 <mtrlt> and actually one BTC costs me roughly $1 to make.
1066 2011-06-10 08:53:59 <lfm> mmm interesting. Im using a 5770 for the basis of my calc
1067 2011-06-10 08:54:00 <mtrlt> so difficulty can go up 30 times before it's not profitable at all any more
1068 2011-06-10 08:54:13 <mtrlt> what electricity price are you using?
1069 2011-06-10 08:54:50 <mtrlt> hm i made an error
1070 2011-06-10 08:54:54 <lfm> its still fairly cheap here even tho it almost doubled this year. $0.115/kwh
1071 2011-06-10 08:55:05 <mtrlt> one bitcoin costs me $1.4 to make
1072 2011-06-10 08:55:16 <mtrlt> i'm using $0.18 / kWh
1073 2011-06-10 08:55:21 <mtrlt> which is my rate
1074 2011-06-10 08:55:45 zyb_ has joined
1075 2011-06-10 08:56:08 <lfm> ya I think its costing me $2.95/BTC (theoreticcly)
1076 2011-06-10 08:56:23 <mtrlt> in electricity?
1077 2011-06-10 08:56:26 <mtrlt> that's quite high
1078 2011-06-10 08:56:27 <lfm> ya
1079 2011-06-10 08:56:35 <mtrlt> but expected for a 5770 :p
1080 2011-06-10 08:56:50 <lfm> the 5770 isnt as efficient so ...
1081 2011-06-10 08:56:58 <mtrlt> yep
1082 2011-06-10 08:57:31 <lfm> still a pretty good profit margin but I spoze I will drop out before you that way
1083 2011-06-10 08:57:43 <mtrlt> yea
1084 2011-06-10 08:57:46 MB123789 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1085 2011-06-10 08:57:51 <mtrlt> i don't anticipate dropping out for half a year
1086 2011-06-10 08:58:41 <lfm> reasonable assuming it doesnt all crash before that
1087 2011-06-10 08:58:46 zyb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1088 2011-06-10 08:59:07 <mtrlt> yep
1089 2011-06-10 08:59:48 * edcba look at electricity price here
1090 2011-06-10 09:00:10 <edcba> about 0.12â¬/kW/h
1091 2011-06-10 09:00:16 <lfm> edcba: ? ya, power prices vary a lot
1092 2011-06-10 09:00:36 <lfm> from place to place
1093 2011-06-10 09:00:40 * edcba runs nuclear powered electricity :)
1094 2011-06-10 09:00:49 <mtrlt> edcba: around the same as me, 0.125⬠:)
1095 2011-06-10 09:00:58 <mtrlt> i'm not sure what kinda power i am running on, tho.
1096 2011-06-10 09:00:59 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1098 2011-06-10 09:01:17 <lfm> ours is mostly coal
1099 2011-06-10 09:01:21 <mtrlt> would go for 100% nuclear&hydro if possible but figuring that out isn't high on my priority list :p
1100 2011-06-10 09:01:30 zyb has joined
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1105 2011-06-10 09:05:21 <edcba> hmm i have some other options too it seems
1106 2011-06-10 09:05:52 <lfm> Ya I think I could get wind power for a small premium
1107 2011-06-10 09:06:23 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1108 2011-06-10 09:06:23 <edcba> ie you could have 0.0864â¬/kWh
1109 2011-06-10 09:06:37 <edcba> but you can only mine during nights etc
1110 2011-06-10 09:06:53 <lfm> oh thatd be nice
1111 2011-06-10 09:07:19 <edcba> otherwise it's 0.1275â¬/kWh
1112 2011-06-10 09:07:43 <jgarzik> da2ce7: the forum is slow because it's full of crap :)
1113 2011-06-10 09:07:46 <lfm> They might do that here too for industrial customers only tho
1114 2011-06-10 09:10:17 alont has joined
1115 2011-06-10 09:10:23 <alont> Hello
1116 2011-06-10 09:10:37 <lfm> hi
1117 2011-06-10 09:10:49 <alont> I'm wondering if anyone can be of assistance
1118 2011-06-10 09:11:03 <gjs278> yes
1119 2011-06-10 09:11:04 <gjs278> what isit
1120 2011-06-10 09:11:11 <alont> I've been trying to start generating bitcoins using my gpu for quite a while now
1121 2011-06-10 09:11:25 <alont> Just cant get it to work
1122 2011-06-10 09:11:30 <gjs278> ok
1123 2011-06-10 09:11:34 <gjs278> what program are you using
1124 2011-06-10 09:11:40 <gjs278> what card do you have
1125 2011-06-10 09:11:43 <gjs278> what os are you on
1126 2011-06-10 09:11:44 <alont> GUIMiner
1127 2011-06-10 09:11:50 <alont> using a GTX 260
1128 2011-06-10 09:11:55 <alont> and windows 7
1129 2011-06-10 09:11:58 <gjs278> ok
1130 2011-06-10 09:12:04 <gjs278> what pool are you in
1131 2011-06-10 09:12:13 <alont> www.bitcoins.lc
1132 2011-06-10 09:12:31 <gjs278> is there an option for that pool in the gui or is it a custom
1133 2011-06-10 09:12:40 <alont> its custom
1134 2011-06-10 09:12:58 <gjs278> do you see your GTX 260 in the program's options
1135 2011-06-10 09:13:02 <gjs278> listed as a device
1136 2011-06-10 09:13:10 <alont> yes, its my only option
1137 2011-06-10 09:13:13 <gjs278> ok
1138 2011-06-10 09:13:21 <gjs278> so you're just having issues connecting then
1139 2011-06-10 09:13:28 <alont> yep
1140 2011-06-10 09:13:29 <alont> this is what im getting
1141 2011-06-10 09:13:40 <alont> Listener for "PC": 10/06/2011 11:03:35, Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
1142 2011-06-10 09:13:54 <alont> Opened the necessary port
1143 2011-06-10 09:14:00 <alont> shut down my firewalls
1144 2011-06-10 09:14:10 <alont> still nada
1145 2011-06-10 09:14:16 <gjs278> can you screenshot your settings
1146 2011-06-10 09:14:19 <gjs278> so I can see
1147 2011-06-10 09:14:25 <gjs278> you may just want to try another pool
1148 2011-06-10 09:14:33 Dayofswords has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1149 2011-06-10 09:14:33 <gjs278> but its most likely your setup
1150 2011-06-10 09:14:45 <alont> sure
1151 2011-06-10 09:14:46 <alont> just a sec
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1161 2011-06-10 09:20:31 <netxshare> anyone seen poclbm throw this error before ( http://www.privatepaste.com/c8f9c19851 )
1162 2011-06-10 09:20:42 <gjs278> yes
1163 2011-06-10 09:20:44 <gjs278> I have
1164 2011-06-10 09:20:46 pRjck3vC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1165 2011-06-10 09:20:50 <netxshare> any idea what causes it?
1166 2011-06-10 09:21:02 <gjs278> your pool skipped a beat it my guess
1167 2011-06-10 09:21:05 Stellar has joined
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1169 2011-06-10 09:21:17 <gjs278> I've had it happen before but it happened to all miners at the exact same time
1170 2011-06-10 09:22:11 <netxshare> that's what I figured
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1174 2011-06-10 09:24:30 <yoR> How much have the current kernels (ArtForz/Diablo, poclbm and phatk) been optimized? I've heard people say there is still room for improvement
1175 2011-06-10 09:25:03 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1176 2011-06-10 09:25:10 <sipa> a few % at most
1177 2011-06-10 09:25:24 <sipa> can be gained still
1178 2011-06-10 09:25:47 <yoR> Any idea on which front?
1179 2011-06-10 09:26:38 <gjs278> stabalizing the ati drivers so we can overclock more
1180 2011-06-10 09:27:05 dubious has quit (Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night)
1181 2011-06-10 09:28:48 asddf has joined
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1183 2011-06-10 09:33:45 <netxshare> hrm
1184 2011-06-10 09:33:56 <netxshare> does -datadir=dir not allow me to run more then one copy of bitcoin
1185 2011-06-10 09:34:01 <netxshare> the default client that is
1186 2011-06-10 09:34:39 <gjs278> well
1187 2011-06-10 09:34:43 <gjs278> you get one client per dir
1188 2011-06-10 09:34:49 <gjs278> you can specify a different one and do it there
1189 2011-06-10 09:35:11 RazielZ has joined
1190 2011-06-10 09:35:13 <netxshare> it seems that it finds the default %appdata%\Bitcoin
1191 2011-06-10 09:35:21 <netxshare> and does not take -datadir as an option
1192 2011-06-10 09:35:34 <netxshare> tho
1193 2011-06-10 09:35:44 <netxshare> it does write to the debug log in the -datadir
1194 2011-06-10 09:35:49 <netxshare> so it must be working
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1205 2011-06-10 09:51:40 <doc_m> hey guys, I have a question about a possible attack
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1208 2011-06-10 09:52:28 <gjs278> ok
1209 2011-06-10 09:52:31 <gjs278> name it
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1211 2011-06-10 09:52:59 <doc_m> if block a was found at 10:00 and then block b was found at 10:10, but was timestamped as 11:00, then when block c is found at 10:17, assuming C's miner has the correct time, would this make his block be rejected
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1213 2011-06-10 09:53:51 <doc_m> assuming the blocks before a happened fairly quickly
1214 2011-06-10 09:54:09 <doc_m> Ah wait no
1215 2011-06-10 09:54:12 <doc_m> never mind
1216 2011-06-10 09:54:15 <doc_m> thanks anyway
1217 2011-06-10 09:54:15 <gjs278> done
1218 2011-06-10 09:54:24 <doc_m> Just needed a sounding board I guess
1219 2011-06-10 09:54:42 <Wayno> Hello i have a problem communicating via the bitcoin.inc.php file to bitcoind, is this a good place to ask for help?
1220 2011-06-10 09:54:50 <gjs278> yes
1221 2011-06-10 09:54:55 <gjs278> what is the problem
1222 2011-06-10 09:55:06 <Wayno> when i do $transactions[$i]["category"]
1223 2011-06-10 09:55:06 <mologie> there is a bitcoin php lib?
1224 2011-06-10 09:55:10 <Wayno> it returns nothing
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1226 2011-06-10 09:55:24 <gjs278> print_r($transactions)
1227 2011-06-10 09:55:29 <gjs278> and let me know if that even has anything
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1229 2011-06-10 09:55:48 <Wayno> wow that worked
1230 2011-06-10 09:55:54 <gjs278> alright
1231 2011-06-10 09:55:59 <gjs278> now take it a step further
1232 2011-06-10 09:56:05 <gjs278> print_r($transactions[$i])
1233 2011-06-10 09:56:05 <Wayno> thank u very much
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1236 2011-06-10 09:57:33 <Wayno> print_r($transactions[$i]) doesnt print anything
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1241 2011-06-10 09:58:23 <doc_m> for bitcoin web apps, django or php?
1242 2011-06-10 09:58:27 <gjs278> php
1243 2011-06-10 09:58:47 <gjs278> yeah Wayno just read the print_r) for $transactions and figure out the array from there
1244 2011-06-10 09:59:37 <Wayno> given me 3 arrays
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1246 2011-06-10 10:00:22 <gjs278> ok
1247 2011-06-10 10:00:31 <gjs278> if they're not holding sensitive data pastebin it
1248 2011-06-10 10:00:35 <gjs278> and I'll tell you how to read further down
1249 2011-06-10 10:00:41 <gjs278> although you may just want to do
1250 2011-06-10 10:00:49 <gjs278> foreach($transactions as $transaction) {
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1252 2011-06-10 10:00:57 <gjs278> and then print_r($transaction) in that loop
1253 2011-06-10 10:01:00 <gjs278> and see what you have there
1254 2011-06-10 10:01:04 <gjs278> that may get you pretty close
1255 2011-06-10 10:01:06 <cyberdo> gjs278: I wouldn't recommend PHP for anyhing, really
1256 2011-06-10 10:01:15 <cyberdo> err... doc_m
1257 2011-06-10 10:01:16 <gjs278> hey now
1258 2011-06-10 10:01:32 <gjs278> I figured he was just asking what we're talking about
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1261 2011-06-10 10:02:08 <cyberdo> oh.. my bad
1262 2011-06-10 10:02:15 <doc_m> nah I was asking for advice
1263 2011-06-10 10:02:22 <doc_m> I could tell you were talking php
1264 2011-06-10 10:03:08 <gjs278> goddamn that lightning is close to my house
1265 2011-06-10 10:03:13 <gjs278> my power is going to go out
1266 2011-06-10 10:03:26 <gjs278> I lost 7 hours ofmining last night
1267 2011-06-10 10:05:15 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1269 2011-06-10 10:05:57 <Wayno> all my transactions have address except the block that was generated
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1271 2011-06-10 10:06:45 <Wayno> i would just use the address that is on the wallet correct?
1272 2011-06-10 10:06:50 <gjs278> yeah
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1274 2011-06-10 10:07:15 <Wayno> k guess this script is out of date then
1275 2011-06-10 10:07:22 <Wayno> time to recode it
1276 2011-06-10 10:07:25 elly has joined
1277 2011-06-10 10:07:41 <Wayno> thanks gjs278
1278 2011-06-10 10:07:46 <gjs278> no problem
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1285 2011-06-10 10:15:45 <yoR> Has anybody tried to convert Diablo's kernel to Python (Phoenix?) It should be a fun project to pick up next week
1286 2011-06-10 10:16:08 <yoR> The buildup looks similair enough, shouldn't be too much work
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1288 2011-06-10 10:16:17 <sipa> Diablo is Java, and its kernel is OpenCL
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1290 2011-06-10 10:16:50 <yoR> I know, the kernel can just be copied, there is a little bit of Python code to write (translate from Java)
1291 2011-06-10 10:17:01 <sipa> Diablo is based on poclbm
1292 2011-06-10 10:17:07 <sipa> poclbm in in python
1293 2011-06-10 10:17:33 <sipa> and they all use ArtForz's kernel nowadays
1294 2011-06-10 10:17:44 <yoR> There are some differences between Diablo's kernel als poclbm I think, Diablo's is a bit more configurable
1295 2011-06-10 10:17:54 <sipa> yes, it was tweaked a bit
1296 2011-06-10 10:18:33 <yoR> Having those abilities available in phoenix would be fun I think
1297 2011-06-10 10:18:50 <yoR> Nice project to learn a bit of Python and some OpenCL
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1299 2011-06-10 10:20:31 <yoR> Diablo has highest speeds with the -v 19 flag, those vectors can't be used in phatk/poclbm yet
1300 2011-06-10 10:20:37 <yoR> (for some cards)
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1306 2011-06-10 10:26:39 <doc_m> diablo buggs out sometimes too
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1315 2011-06-10 10:31:49 <anarchyx> !seen artforz
1316 2011-06-10 10:32:10 <anarchyx> ;;bc help
1317 2011-06-10 10:32:10 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1318 2011-06-10 10:32:18 <anarchyx> ;;seen artforz
1319 2011-06-10 10:32:19 <gribble> artforz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 15 hours, 34 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <ArtForz> 0-outputs are legal
1320 2011-06-10 10:32:41 <netxshare> doc_m: I noticed that lately too, my machine would drop 400mh
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1324 2011-06-10 10:43:55 Theo is now known as Theo`
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1328 2011-06-10 10:51:29 <x5x> http://www.itproportal.com/2011/06/09/bitcoin-picking-up-value-more-than-us-dollars-british-pounds
1329 2011-06-10 10:51:37 <x5x> The virtual currency is the brainchild of Jeff Garzik, known for his hacking skills as well as the inventor of Bitcoin.
1330 2011-06-10 10:51:38 <x5x> Read more: http://www.itproportal.com/2011/06/09/bitcoin-picking-up-value-more-than-us-dollars-british-pounds/#ixzz1OrgsxKeh
1331 2011-06-10 10:52:44 <sipa> all respect for jgarzik, but they're giving him a bit too much credit here :S
1332 2011-06-10 10:54:19 <eps1> the whole "more valuable than the pound or dollar" thing is meaningless isn't it?
1333 2011-06-10 10:54:31 <eps1> bitcoins are like gold, they are worth what they are worth
1334 2011-06-10 10:54:42 <doc_m> everything is like that
1335 2011-06-10 10:54:56 <x5x> yea i was just pointing to that creator sentence
1336 2011-06-10 10:55:02 <wumpus> jgarzik is like the god of bitcoin\
1337 2011-06-10 10:55:35 <x5x> im gonna start a jgarzik is satoshi campaign off of that
1338 2011-06-10 10:56:02 <wumpus> his hacker skills are legendary even in the far east :P
1339 2011-06-10 10:56:12 <eps1> how could you ever prove he is or isn't satoshi?
1340 2011-06-10 10:56:22 <wumpus> you can't
1341 2011-06-10 10:56:24 <x5x> eps1, uh obviously, the news said he is
1342 2011-06-10 10:56:28 <x5x> so it must be true
1343 2011-06-10 10:56:28 <sipa> he hacks faster than his shadow!
1344 2011-06-10 10:56:32 <wumpus> so he is him
1345 2011-06-10 10:56:37 <wumpus> sorry, Him
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1374 2011-06-10 11:51:12 BostX has joined
1375 2011-06-10 11:51:16 <BostX> hi all
1376 2011-06-10 11:52:40 erle- has joined
1377 2011-06-10 11:52:52 <BostX> a simple idea, instead of crunching numbers for its own sake, why not to search for - say - prime numbers?
1378 2011-06-10 11:53:42 <LameArse> hey can you tell me which graphics card offers the best bang for buck for mining with?
1379 2011-06-10 11:53:55 <BostX> im pretty sure im not the 1st one thinking this way but I couldnt find much on google about it
1380 2011-06-10 11:54:16 <Wuked> LameArse: Depnds what your budget is
1381 2011-06-10 11:54:21 <Wuked> the ATI 5850 is good value
1382 2011-06-10 11:54:24 <BostX> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
1383 2011-06-10 11:54:25 <Wuked> if you want multiple cards
1384 2011-06-10 11:54:40 <Wuked> if your motherboard and psu can do it
1385 2011-06-10 11:54:50 <Wuked> then you can get 3 of them ( or even 4) in one machine
1386 2011-06-10 11:54:52 zooko has joined
1387 2011-06-10 11:55:02 <Wuked> they are about £100 each
1388 2011-06-10 11:55:06 <Wuked> so maybe $140
1389 2011-06-10 11:55:08 <LameArse> do the cards have to be identical?
1390 2011-06-10 11:55:21 <Wuked> and get around 300Mh/Sec with a bit of clocking
1391 2011-06-10 11:55:24 <Wuked> no
1392 2011-06-10 11:56:43 <Wuked> what's your budget ?
1393 2011-06-10 11:56:48 <Wuked> and are you only looking to buy 1 card?
1394 2011-06-10 11:56:53 <Wuked> or are you building an entire rig
1395 2011-06-10 11:57:40 <ersi> BostX: Yeah, you're not the first one. I don't even think you're the thousandieth either
1396 2011-06-10 11:58:22 <BostX> ersi, so is there an wiki article about it?
1397 2011-06-10 11:58:27 <ersi> No
1398 2011-06-10 11:58:56 <BostX> ersi, you see! :)
1399 2011-06-10 11:59:43 <BostX> ersi, i could try to make a little contribution :)
1400 2011-06-10 11:59:51 <LameArse> the budget for this month is 200GBP
1401 2011-06-10 12:00:05 <LameArse> I can spend the same again next month
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1406 2011-06-10 12:01:39 <LameArse> one card for now was my thought
1407 2011-06-10 12:01:51 <LameArse> I have a motherboard and powersupply that can run 4 already
1408 2011-06-10 12:01:51 <Wuked> how many cards can your computer take ?
1409 2011-06-10 12:01:56 <LameArse> I have a motherboard and powersupply that can run 4 already
1410 2011-06-10 12:02:04 <Wuked> can you actually fit 4 in your pc though ?
1411 2011-06-10 12:02:08 <LameArse> yeah
1412 2011-06-10 12:02:15 <Wuked> is your case good enough ?
1413 2011-06-10 12:02:19 <LameArse> yeah
1414 2011-06-10 12:02:23 <Wuked> not many are :)
1415 2011-06-10 12:02:31 xelister has joined
1416 2011-06-10 12:02:31 <Wuked> and for 4
1417 2011-06-10 12:02:36 <xelister> the war has started
1418 2011-06-10 12:02:40 <Wuked> you'll need a PSU of maybe 1500W
1419 2011-06-10 12:02:46 <xelister> developer are being arrested for developing software
1420 2011-06-10 12:02:58 <elly> where?
1421 2011-06-10 12:03:00 <xelister> surprisingly it started in France, not in usafags land
1422 2011-06-10 12:03:11 <Wuked> maybe a bit less depending on the cards
1423 2011-06-10 12:03:29 <elly> xelister: link?
1424 2011-06-10 12:03:39 <xelister> it is discussed in #freenet . link is in FR
1425 2011-06-10 12:03:47 <xelister> http://www.linformaticien.com/actualites/id/20871/logiciel-freezer-6-mois-de-prison-avec-sursis-pour-l-auteur.aspx in french
1426 2011-06-10 12:03:58 lfm has joined
1427 2011-06-10 12:04:44 <xelister> <nextgens> basically, a 20y old student wrote a software to capture streamed music from deezer 2y ago
1428 2011-06-10 12:04:45 <xelister> <nextgens> and now he's to pay 15k EUR and spend 6months in jail
1429 2011-06-10 12:04:47 <xelister> <nextgens> thanks to DADVSI
1430 2011-06-10 12:04:48 <xelister> <nextgens> "incitation du public à lâusage dâun logiciel manifestement destiné à la mise à disposition non autorisée dâÅuvres protégées"
1431 2011-06-10 12:04:50 <xelister> <nextgens> incitating people to use a software which is helping to share copyrighted work
1432 2011-06-10 12:05:09 <xelister> when bitcoin developers will start to be arrested.
1433 2011-06-10 12:05:18 <jgarzik> woah
1434 2011-06-10 12:05:21 <jgarzik> I invented bitcoin?
1435 2011-06-10 12:05:21 * xelister wonders will jgarzik remain usafag then
1436 2011-06-10 12:05:30 <jeremias> lol, i bet they try to jail satoshi
1437 2011-06-10 12:05:34 <Wuked> LameArse: if it's just for bitmining, then I'd start off with 2x http://overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-259-SP for £200
1438 2011-06-10 12:05:36 <xelister> jeremias: =)
1439 2011-06-10 12:06:00 <Gekz> xelister: did you just use French law to argue against being an American?
1440 2011-06-10 12:06:09 <Gekz> It's been a while since I've seen such fallacy at work
1441 2011-06-10 12:06:24 <lfm> and copyright law to argue about digital currency?
1442 2011-06-10 12:06:34 <Gekz> yeah, lol
1443 2011-06-10 12:06:38 <xelister> satoshi = SipA naThan uukgOblin nameleSs| natHan7 grIbble ? :P :P
1444 2011-06-10 12:06:41 mmoya has joined
1445 2011-06-10 12:07:10 <lfm> xelister: oh no you gave away the secret
1446 2011-06-10 12:07:12 <xelister> Gekz: this law hopefully will motivate Fr people to emigrate (or vote)
1447 2011-06-10 12:08:07 <elly> emigrate to where?
1448 2011-06-10 12:08:09 <xelister> Gekz: USA is already arresting people for stupid shit too. Although in USA mostly companies where targeted about developing `"illegal"` software. But usa sucks for say sentencing mom to pay 200,000 usd for downloading few stupid songs.
1449 2011-06-10 12:08:27 <lfm> xelister: it will motivate open source people to use false names
1450 2011-06-10 12:08:28 Lorenz has joined
1451 2011-06-10 12:08:31 <xelister> Fr seem to be "leader" though in arresting developers it would seem.
1452 2011-06-10 12:08:47 <xelister> elly: dunno. Many other contries out there.
1453 2011-06-10 12:09:28 <xelister> although. Actually USA ordeal with geohot is alos arresting developer for developing, right?
1454 2011-06-10 12:09:42 <elly> xelister: I mean, I am honestly curious if there is a place that has sensible laws about this :P
1455 2011-06-10 12:09:46 <elly> no, that was a civil case
1456 2011-06-10 12:09:52 <xelister> elly: indeed.
1457 2011-06-10 12:09:54 <elly> as far as I know geohot was never arrested, just sued
1458 2011-06-10 12:10:35 <lfm> almost rather go to jail than pay a record company a few thousands
1459 2011-06-10 12:10:54 <xelister> wait how can a civil sue end in jailtime
1460 2011-06-10 12:11:00 <elly> it doesn't
1461 2011-06-10 12:11:13 <lfm> just sayin
1462 2011-06-10 12:11:17 <xelister> oh
1463 2011-06-10 12:11:18 <elly> afaik geohot's not in jail? he settled with Sony and is free to go
1464 2011-06-10 12:11:26 <xelister> elly: and then Sony got fucked
1465 2011-06-10 12:11:29 <xelister> trolololo lololo lolol
1466 2011-06-10 12:11:32 <elly> yes
1467 2011-06-10 12:11:39 <xelister> I never buying shit from sony in my fucking live
1468 2011-06-10 12:11:40 <xelister> lif
1469 2011-06-10 12:11:42 <xelister> life.
1470 2011-06-10 12:11:55 <lfm> its hard to avoid tho sometimes
1471 2011-06-10 12:12:53 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1472 2011-06-10 12:12:54 <gribble> 129801
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1474 2011-06-10 12:13:07 <lfm> like watch out for sony movies and music on the radio
1475 2011-06-10 12:13:08 <LameArse> thank you folks :)
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1482 2011-06-10 12:19:38 <yoR> Having two different videocards isn't a problem right?
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1484 2011-06-10 12:20:19 <xelister> yoR: it usually works, best of same series e.g. 5xxx
1485 2011-06-10 12:20:22 <xelister> or 6xxx
1486 2011-06-10 12:20:24 <xelister> not mix them
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1515 2011-06-10 12:54:50 <M4v3R> Hi, any devs here? :)
1516 2011-06-10 12:55:12 <yoR> What kind of dev? I'm a dev but I've hardly done anything yet for bitcoin
1517 2011-06-10 12:55:32 <M4v3R> I'd like some people that know Bitcoin protocol in depth
1518 2011-06-10 12:55:37 <edcba> ask
1519 2011-06-10 12:56:00 <M4v3R> I want to track a fraudulent user of our market
1520 2011-06-10 12:56:33 <M4v3R> Is there a way to know for example if the block was generated by a pool?
1521 2011-06-10 12:56:44 <M4v3R> Looking at the address for receiving generated BTC
1522 2011-06-10 12:56:57 <M4v3R> Do pools use fixed addresses for that
1523 2011-06-10 12:57:11 <khalahan> M4v3R, a pool may include a lot of his own payment in his block, but this is not a waranty
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1526 2011-06-10 12:57:36 <M4v3R> http://blockexplorer.com/address/17EAxSU7zkoqfZF3ppfo2SufxQBPeiVw6X
1527 2011-06-10 12:57:45 <M4v3R> I have a guy with this address
1528 2011-06-10 12:57:46 ChuckSchumer has joined
1529 2011-06-10 12:57:51 <M4v3R> He scammed a few guys
1530 2011-06-10 12:58:00 <M4v3R> And has all BTCs from the transactions here
1531 2011-06-10 12:58:14 <M4v3R> Didn't withdraw anything yet
1532 2011-06-10 12:58:30 <M4v3R> Though if he will, there might be a way to trace him to the exchange he uses
1533 2011-06-10 12:58:43 TD has joined
1534 2011-06-10 13:00:06 <M4v3R> I just want to know if it's possible/feasible
1535 2011-06-10 13:00:25 <doublec> M4v3R: join all the pools and mine
1536 2011-06-10 13:00:38 <doublec> M4v3R: look at the block generated, and see what addresses are in it
1537 2011-06-10 13:00:40 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1538 2011-06-10 13:00:58 <doublec> M4v3R: by which I mean what addresses were sent coins from that block
1539 2011-06-10 13:01:00 Moonies has joined
1540 2011-06-10 13:01:14 <doublec> M4v3R: and see if the same addresses receive payment from the blocks you know were generated by that pool
1541 2011-06-10 13:01:27 <doublec> M4v3R: you can use this to identify which pool got the block
1542 2011-06-10 13:01:37 <M4v3R> Ok, thanks
1543 2011-06-10 13:01:46 <doublec> M4v3R: actually you don't need to join the pools, you can look up their stats
1544 2011-06-10 13:01:59 <doublec> pity block explorer doesn't allow annotations
1545 2011-06-10 13:02:01 negator has joined
1546 2011-06-10 13:02:03 <doublec> this could be crowd sourced
1547 2011-06-10 13:02:24 <M4v3R> From what I see deepbit use different address
1548 2011-06-10 13:02:26 <M4v3R> Every time
1549 2011-06-10 13:02:42 <doublec> yes, you have to see what addresses are paid originating from that generated address
1550 2011-06-10 13:02:45 <M4v3R> Though this could be checked by using the timestamps
1551 2011-06-10 13:03:06 <doublec> although it won't work if the pool pays out from other addresses
1552 2011-06-10 13:03:10 <doublec> which is probably likely
1553 2011-06-10 13:03:21 <doublec> luke-jr's pool is easy to identify
1554 2011-06-10 13:03:38 <M4v3R> Because it pays generation btcs to all?
1555 2011-06-10 13:03:41 <doublec> I doubt (and would hope) the pool owner doesn't give out information though
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1557 2011-06-10 13:03:44 <doublec> even if you know the pool
1558 2011-06-10 13:03:49 <doublec> M4v3R: yes
1559 2011-06-10 13:05:24 <M4v3R> There are only few exchanges out there
1560 2011-06-10 13:05:25 <xelister> So let's sum up. jGarzik is paid by the US government, Gavin Andresen is on CIA's paycheck.
1561 2011-06-10 13:05:28 <xelister> what do you think about this?
1562 2011-06-10 13:05:37 <M4v3R> There could be a way to connect them
1563 2011-06-10 13:05:54 <M4v3R> And use their data to find fraudulent ppl
1564 2011-06-10 13:05:55 sipa has joined
1565 2011-06-10 13:06:08 <iera> xelister: doesnt matter as long as other people look at the release code
1566 2011-06-10 13:06:40 <xelister> iera: how about things that are NOT included
1567 2011-06-10 13:06:54 <doublec> like?
1568 2011-06-10 13:06:54 <xelister> jgarzik did expressed dislike for freenet technology
1569 2011-06-10 13:07:01 <xelister> that would allow bitcoin to be fully unbannable
1570 2011-06-10 13:07:04 <iera> ok yeah
1571 2011-06-10 13:07:09 <iera> then just fork it
1572 2011-06-10 13:07:13 <xelister> todays bitcoin's protocoll is trivially blockable
1573 2011-06-10 13:07:23 <xelister> iera: power is in number of people supporting given idea
1574 2011-06-10 13:07:26 <iera> no, just run it with tor hidden services, done
1575 2011-06-10 13:07:33 <xelister> TOR works indeed
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1577 2011-06-10 13:07:45 <iera> i dont think that will become a problem
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1579 2011-06-10 13:07:51 <xelister> but tor is not perfect, and is successfully blockable. also blockchain downloads would work muvh better and faster on freenet
1580 2011-06-10 13:08:07 <iera> right, the problem is probably to connect the nodes inbetween
1581 2011-06-10 13:08:17 <xelister> (actually ideally one would use TOR for quick new blocks updates for minining if he mines, and freenet for blockchain and txes for normal payments use)
1582 2011-06-10 13:08:21 <iera> but if you just do that nobody can stop you
1583 2011-06-10 13:08:40 <xelister> iera: if there is not enought by-default set up security, then most users get cought
1584 2011-06-10 13:08:43 <xelister> which is bad for them
1585 2011-06-10 13:08:49 <xelister> as well for other users since shriking userbase
1586 2011-06-10 13:09:09 <iera> right, but it would be imho more important to run mix-txs per default
1587 2011-06-10 13:09:18 <xelister> all is needed
1588 2011-06-10 13:09:28 <xelister> secure-transport ( #btcfn works on that ) and mix
1589 2011-06-10 13:09:36 <xelister> AND to have it by default
1590 2011-06-10 13:09:38 <iera> hm yeah
1591 2011-06-10 13:10:13 <xelister> if the DEVELOPERS basically all are against anti-censorship and are loving government etc, how do you think it will end
1592 2011-06-10 13:10:19 <xelister> *usafags government
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1596 2011-06-10 13:11:14 <xelister> who will then use bitcoin, 1 in 100 geekiest of geeks that know how to run bitcoin AND setup freenet&tor AND how to connect it all
1597 2011-06-10 13:11:20 <xelister> *use bitcoin securly
1598 2011-06-10 13:11:40 <M4v3R> Wow, I think I thought out a way to get rid of Paypal chargebacks
1599 2011-06-10 13:11:47 <M4v3R> When selling BTC
1600 2011-06-10 13:12:02 <echelon> M4v3R, oh?
1601 2011-06-10 13:12:12 <iera> xelister: right, im totally for it, but over time the standard client will be less important, so the problem will solve itself
1602 2011-06-10 13:12:13 <M4v3R> I've read on one forum
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1604 2011-06-10 13:12:30 <iera> as long as the protocol wont break between clients
1605 2011-06-10 13:12:36 <xelister> iera: how about having non-usafags developers
1606 2011-06-10 13:12:41 <M4v3R> That a guy which sold digital goods always asked their customers to send an email confirmation that he received them
1607 2011-06-10 13:12:42 <xelister> like right away
1608 2011-06-10 13:12:53 <M4v3R> Which would serve a proof for CC company / Paypal
1609 2011-06-10 13:12:59 <iera> get some :)
1610 2011-06-10 13:13:21 <M4v3R> It's difficult in a peer to peer environment, but we on BitMarket.eu could act as an escrow for this
1611 2011-06-10 13:13:26 <xelister> developers, admins etc, all should be politically and geographically distributed fairly imo
1612 2011-06-10 13:13:36 <M4v3R> 1. Buyer sends the money
1613 2011-06-10 13:13:45 <M4v3R> 2. Seller clicks on "Release BTC" button
1614 2011-06-10 13:13:55 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1615 2011-06-10 13:14:04 <M4v3R> 3. Buyer sees this and have these BTC in frozen state
1616 2011-06-10 13:14:23 <M4v3R> 4. Buyer then sends an email to us that he confirms that he has received the goods
1617 2011-06-10 13:14:30 <M4v3R> 5. And we unfreeze his funds then
1618 2011-06-10 13:15:07 <M4v3R> What do you guys think of this?
1619 2011-06-10 13:15:36 <iera> thats an escrow service, nothing new
1620 2011-06-10 13:15:41 <sipa> M4v3R: it's simply not allowed by paypal to use its service for selling digital goods
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1623 2011-06-10 13:15:57 <M4v3R> iera: not exactly
1624 2011-06-10 13:16:03 <sipa> no escrow will fix that
1625 2011-06-10 13:16:05 <M4v3R> Because buyer sends an email which goes from his IP
1626 2011-06-10 13:16:16 Moonies has joined
1627 2011-06-10 13:16:18 <sipa> details
1628 2011-06-10 13:16:24 <xelister> sipa: you're bitcoin developer right? from which country?
1629 2011-06-10 13:16:31 <sipa> xelister: belgium
1630 2011-06-10 13:16:33 <sturles> No. PayPal allows selling of digital goods. There is an own category for it.
1631 2011-06-10 13:16:47 <M4v3R> sturles: Yeah, I also think that they allow it
1632 2011-06-10 13:17:11 <xelister> sipa: what do you think of idea to transport bitcoin over freenet - it would make bitcoin uncensorable and private (thugs can't so easly spy on whos using bitcoin, who's doing what etc)
1633 2011-06-10 13:17:53 <sipa> in general, i'm in favor of alternative ways to have nodes communicate with eachother
1634 2011-06-10 13:17:57 <sipa> but it's low priority now
1635 2011-06-10 13:18:10 <xelister> sipa: well #btcfn already works on it
1636 2011-06-10 13:18:19 <xelister> once it is ready, will you pull it into mainline client
1637 2011-06-10 13:18:32 elly has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1638 2011-06-10 13:18:44 <xelister> (if it turns out to be /also/ in form of patches /probably extra RPC calls/ to the bitcoin client)
1639 2011-06-10 13:19:00 <sipa> i think all is needed is an rpc call to receive txs/blocks in binary form, and to inject those txs/blocks into a node
1640 2011-06-10 13:19:08 <xelister> basically yes
1641 2011-06-10 13:19:21 <xelister> perhaps with some extra options to make this mechanism more realible and performant
1642 2011-06-10 13:19:26 <sipa> some other system on top of that can do whatever it wants with it
1643 2011-06-10 13:19:39 <sipa> be it freenet or satellite communication
1644 2011-06-10 13:19:49 <xelister> or BATMAN ;)
1645 2011-06-10 13:19:51 elly has joined
1646 2011-06-10 13:19:51 <sipa> of cutting into stone
1647 2011-06-10 13:20:23 DontMindMe has joined
1648 2011-06-10 13:20:41 <sipa> M4v3R: hmm, they allow virtual goods?
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1650 2011-06-10 13:21:01 <iera> satellite is great for broadcast, but it would probably be taken down
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1652 2011-06-10 13:21:03 <M4v3R> From what I see, yes
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1655 2011-06-10 13:22:05 <sipa> xelister: actually, it's even easier - you could use any of the lightweight node implementations in existance, and let that hook into your own communication protocol
1656 2011-06-10 13:22:35 <xelister> sipa: hmm but it its easier to just run 1 node I guess
1657 2011-06-10 13:22:41 <xelister> although this is some option indeed
1658 2011-06-10 13:23:25 <M4v3R> Sipa: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Merchant-services/Virtual-Products/m-p/213140#M3711
1659 2011-06-10 13:24:15 <sipa> M4v3R: interesting, people in #bitcoin-otc will want to read that, i guess
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1661 2011-06-10 13:24:56 <M4v3R> Still, I'd like to know if this idea of mine will be enough to protect the sellers
1662 2011-06-10 13:25:36 <sipa> i wonder why eg. coinpal wasn't able to use this
1663 2011-06-10 13:26:11 <sipa> http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=2555.msg101084#msg101084
1664 2011-06-10 13:26:47 <Sami345> lol! I bitcoin value is in the sky :D
1665 2011-06-10 13:26:58 <M4v3R> Sipa: CoinPal is a different story
1666 2011-06-10 13:27:09 <M4v3R> Because he was selling Bitcoins to many people from his one account
1667 2011-06-10 13:27:31 <M4v3R> We at BitMarket.eu only match sellers with buyers, which decentralizes the trading
1668 2011-06-10 13:27:40 <M4v3R> So there's no single Paypal account to block
1669 2011-06-10 13:27:50 <M4v3R> But still this is vurnable to chargebacks
1670 2011-06-10 13:31:13 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1671 2011-06-10 13:31:23 <xelister> M4v3R: interestin
1672 2011-06-10 13:31:31 Moonies has joined
1673 2011-06-10 13:31:53 <M4v3R> I think we'll implement this email mechanism and I'll see how it works
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1679 2011-06-10 13:35:01 <jav_> What's the current status on the discussion surrounding transaction fees? what policies will the next releases have?
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1682 2011-06-10 13:36:40 zooko is now known as zookoundercover
1683 2011-06-10 13:39:22 <jav_> moving to 0.0005 BTC? .. but amounts less than 0.01 BTC will still be problematic?
1684 2011-06-10 13:42:13 Stellar has joined
1685 2011-06-10 13:44:27 <Sami345> ;;bc,calc 180000
1686 2011-06-10 13:44:28 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 180000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 22 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 28 minutes, and 14 seconds
1687 2011-06-10 13:45:05 <krekbwoy> ;;bc,calc 700000
1688 2011-06-10 13:45:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 700000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 5 weeks, 5 days, 6 hours, 58 minutes, and 41 seconds
1689 2011-06-10 13:45:38 <jav_> I still fee like the "dust spam prevention" rules were a bad idea... dust spam doesn't seem like such a big problem and now we have a complicated system that makes it hard to reason whether a transaction will propagate
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1694 2011-06-10 13:48:58 <jav_> and it has all these ugly hardcoded values like 0.01 BTC.. what's special about 0.01 BTC? .. this needs to be much more dynamic
1695 2011-06-10 13:49:45 zyb has joined
1696 2011-06-10 13:50:05 <xelister> jav_: yea... in some time it may be 0.01 USD = 1 US dollar. way too little granuality
1697 2011-06-10 13:52:38 <jav_> I'm currently trying to upgrade Instawallet to deal with amounts smaller than 0.01 BTC and it's just a big problem... I basically have to put this on hold, until 1) there is a better fee handling over the RPC interface and 2) I feel like I understand which transactions are getting forwarded by nodes and which don't
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1700 2011-06-10 13:53:56 <x6763> yeah, the fee situation has sucked for a while
1701 2011-06-10 13:55:25 <jav_> x6763: I agree.. and I tried to raise this on the forum before, but got shut down with "the miners will figure out a fee structure"... which is only half of the problem, the other half is what transactions are getting forwarded by the majority of nodes and miners don't have influence over that
1702 2011-06-10 13:55:52 agricocb has joined
1703 2011-06-10 13:55:55 <xelister> jav_: there should be fee per each transaction imo (per each send and sendmany)
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1705 2011-06-10 13:58:05 <jav_> xelister: I disagree, I think free transactions are a killer feature during this early phase of Bitcoin and as many free transactions as possible should be supported.... I would like to see a system where a node basically forwards everything it sees until it reaches some threshold on throughput, then it gradually drops transactions (starting with free and low priority) ones until it's within limits again
1706 2011-06-10 13:58:30 <jav_> xelister: If a spammer starts spamming the network, you then just need to pay a little bit more than him to still get through
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1709 2011-06-10 14:01:02 <arienh4> Does anyone here know what happens to unclaimed transaction fees? So if the miner only puts 50 BTC in his generation transaction while there are fees in the block?
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1713 2011-06-10 14:02:26 <eps1> ;;bc,mtgox
1714 2011-06-10 14:02:27 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":31.5,"low":25.626,"vol":43587,"buy":26.5,"sell":26.6,"last":26.5}}
1715 2011-06-10 14:02:30 <x6763> arienh4: i'm assuming those bitcoins are just lost...i haven't seen anything that suggests nodes would treat the block as invalid
1716 2011-06-10 14:02:53 <arienh4> x6763: And if the generation transaction isn't in there?
1717 2011-06-10 14:03:37 <x6763> arienh4: i think that transaction is required to be in the block
1718 2011-06-10 14:03:52 <iera> i agree with jav_, mandatory transaction fees and i wouldnt have started with bitcoin at all
1719 2011-06-10 14:04:30 <arienh4> jav_: Nothing stops anyone from accepting transactions using a system like that.
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1722 2011-06-10 14:05:30 <jav_> arienh4: I can accept them sure... but I have to link in with the rest of the Bitcoin node, which will run the standard Bitcoin software and I won't be able to forward my transaction to any of those nodes
1723 2011-06-10 14:05:45 <jav_> the rest of the Bitcoin network, I mean
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1725 2011-06-10 14:05:55 <arienh4> jav_: You can, but miners decide whether to include a TX in a block based on their own rules.
1726 2011-06-10 14:05:55 <x6763> arienh4: according to the protocol rules, there must be a coingen transaction in the block: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
1727 2011-06-10 14:06:08 <arienh4> x6763: Thanks
1728 2011-06-10 14:07:35 <jav_> arienh4: yes, and I'm sure the miners will figure out a good system... but I'm talking about getting the transaction from an arbitrary position in the network to a miner or to me. The transaction will most likely have to go through vanilla Bitcoin nodes and as such I'm bound by their rules if I want a somewhat reliable propagation
1729 2011-06-10 14:07:36 <x6763> arienh4: it also mentions checking that the coingen transaction output is not greater than the block creation fee and transaction fees, but does not say anything about it needing to be equal, so i assume it's technically possible that the fees can be unclaimed
1730 2011-06-10 14:07:59 <arienh4> jav_: I thought nodes were supposed to propagate transactions through the pool indiscriminately.
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1737 2011-06-10 14:08:32 <arienh4> jav_: If need be, you can always peer with the free transaction relay policy network.
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1739 2011-06-10 14:08:50 <x6763> arienh4: maybe the current code is supposed to (i'm not sure anymore), but there's no enforceable way to do that
1740 2011-06-10 14:08:57 <jav_> arienh4: I can, but my customer who wants to pay me with Bitcoin won't
1741 2011-06-10 14:09:17 <arienh4> x6763: You always run that risk with a p2p network.
1742 2011-06-10 14:10:34 <arienh4> Oh, it looks like the peers do refuse transactions that have a TX fee that's too low.
1743 2011-06-10 14:10:37 gwelymernan has left ()
1744 2011-06-10 14:10:48 <arienh4> That's a bad idea IMO.
1745 2011-06-10 14:11:28 <jav_> arienh4: see, that's what I'm saying =) .. some of that was put into place to prevent "dust spam", but I think it's not flexible enough and will cause more problems than it solves
1746 2011-06-10 14:11:57 <arienh4> jav_: To be honest, I think the client SHOULD propagate transactions indiscriminately.
1747 2011-06-10 14:13:10 <jav_> arienh4: well, that won't probably work either... because the clients network bandwidth is a shared resource and you don't want to open yourself up to spamming attacks which use all of the available bandwidth and high-priority transactions don't get through anymore
1748 2011-06-10 14:13:13 <arienh4> When and why was sending to an IP address pulled from the client anyway?
1749 2011-06-10 14:13:52 <arienh4> jav_: Then, yes, your idea.
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1751 2011-06-10 14:16:10 <arienh4> It would probably be a good idea for big companies if they would ever accept Bitcoin to mine themselves and accept transactions directly.
1752 2011-06-10 14:16:23 <devon_hillard> is it possible to detect double-spending after the fact, even if it can't be reversed?
1753 2011-06-10 14:16:46 <arienh4> devon_hillard: Double-spending is impossible.
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1755 2011-06-10 14:17:13 <arienh4> I mean, you could have two transactions in multiple block chains...
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1757 2011-06-10 14:17:45 <x6763> arienh4: that's how the attack would work...create a second branch that doesn't include the transaction you made in the other branch
1758 2011-06-10 14:17:52 <devon_hillard> arienh4: yeah, you could spend a few coins of an invalid block chain if it momentarily had enough sway over the network
1759 2011-06-10 14:18:07 <devon_hillard> arienh4: then using the same power to promote a different chain
1760 2011-06-10 14:18:16 <arienh4> devon_hillard: So that's how you would detect it, if the block the original transaction was in is no longer in the block chain.
1761 2011-06-10 14:18:49 <x6763> devon_hillard: you'd be able to see that certain tx outputs were spent in one branch, but then not spent in a newer branch, but i don't know that you'd be able to prove that was due to a double spending attack or not
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1763 2011-06-10 14:20:10 <arienh4> x6763: If the same ouput is referenced in seperate transactions in seperate chains, it's double-spending.
1764 2011-06-10 14:20:10 scott` has joined
1765 2011-06-10 14:20:37 <xelister> jav_: that is what I said ;) there should be txfees, with option to set txfee (0 or 0.01 or 0.0001 or whatever) also individually for teach transaction, not just globally in config
1766 2011-06-10 14:20:48 <x6763> arienh4: ah yeah, sorry, i messed up and was thinking about just undoing a transaction, not double-spending outputs
1767 2011-06-10 14:21:14 <jav_> xelister: ok, I see.. yes, definitely, it should be possible to do this on a per-transaction case
1768 2011-06-10 14:21:17 <arienh4> x6763: Undoing a transaction isn't really double-spending.
1769 2011-06-10 14:21:18 <x6763> xelister: yeah, i hate the whole one-fee-fits-all thing going on
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1772 2011-06-10 14:22:03 <x6763> arienh4: right...though it means you still can double spend later
1773 2011-06-10 14:22:14 <arienh4> x6763: True.
1774 2011-06-10 14:22:36 <arienh4> Then it's just a matter of checking whether the output is spent at all.
1775 2011-06-10 14:23:58 simkiss has joined
1776 2011-06-10 14:24:39 <jav_> arienh4: I was thinking the same thing, regarding companies just accepting transactions over a direct link... it might be worthwhile to define some standard protocol for that which might also include some out-of-band information (like what this transaction is used for) which could be passed over this direct link. It would make paying with Bitcoin much more reliable if you can hand the transaction directly to the merchant and he worries about getting it int
1777 2011-06-10 14:24:39 <jav_> o a block
1778 2011-06-10 14:25:14 <arienh4> jav_: Not really, though. Just having a signed transaction doesn't prevent double-spending.
1779 2011-06-10 14:25:29 <arienh4> It still needs to be put in a few blocks before you're sure.
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1782 2011-06-10 14:26:11 <jav_> arienh4: I know.. this wasn't in response to the double spend discussion... more as a addon to the "how to reliable transfer transactions through the network" discussion
1783 2011-06-10 14:26:14 <arienh4> Although, as difficulty goes up, shouldn't the amount of confirmations needed go down?
1784 2011-06-10 14:26:29 <arienh4> jav_: Well, yeah, but it doesn't add much.
1785 2011-06-10 14:27:06 kisom_de1 is now known as kisom_dev
1786 2011-06-10 14:28:16 <jav_> arienh4: I think it does.. especially in cases where you just assume that the sender is honest and won't double-spend. ... It would make the payment process very fast and reliable.. whereas when you rely on the P2P network, every once in a while a transaction might get "stuck" somewhere and you have an annoyed customer
1787 2011-06-10 14:28:37 <arienh4> jav_: True.
1788 2011-06-10 14:29:02 <arienh4> Someone could set up a premium mining pool that only accepts transactions that are paid for.
1789 2011-06-10 14:29:16 <arienh4> Buy lots of expensive equipment to make it fast.
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1835 2011-06-10 15:06:35 * lupine_85 writes code, rocks on
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1837 2011-06-10 15:10:00 <jrmithdobbs> lol @ pull 284
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1840 2011-06-10 15:12:39 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: I agree, why add another dependency?
1841 2011-06-10 15:14:15 diki has joined
1842 2011-06-10 15:14:16 <wumpus> it would be an optional dependency of course
1843 2011-06-10 15:14:41 <diki> can phoenix be compiled on windows?
1844 2011-06-10 15:14:48 <diki> for windows of course
1845 2011-06-10 15:14:59 <diki> or do i need some hacky setup for it?\
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1853 2011-06-10 15:22:08 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: i was lolling at reading the licensing wrong
1854 2011-06-10 15:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: and ya it'd be an optional dep so I don't see an issue
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1859 2011-06-10 15:27:38 <phantomcircuit> finalyl have everything with britcoin sorted
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1866 2011-06-10 15:29:27 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: hi
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1868 2011-06-10 15:29:47 <anddam> I couldn't reproduce any issue with wxwidgets 2.9
1869 2011-06-10 15:30:01 <lupine_85> phantomcircuit, great success ?
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1871 2011-06-10 15:30:29 <anddam> but I saw an issue with background mode when running "bitcoin -daemon"
1872 2011-06-10 15:30:49 <phantomcircuit> lupine_85, giant headache we accidentally forked the wallet
1873 2011-06-10 15:30:56 <phantomcircuit> well... i accidentally forked the wallet
1874 2011-06-10 15:31:03 <phantomcircuit> anyways
1875 2011-06-10 15:31:04 <phantomcircuit> brb
1876 2011-06-10 15:31:05 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: How'd you manage that?
1877 2011-06-10 15:31:19 <phantomcircuit> copied the wrong wallet when migrating
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1880 2011-06-10 15:32:02 <anddam> phantomcircuit: how do handle a forked wallet?
1881 2011-06-10 15:32:23 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: maybe there was a broken port at the time i built that threw me off then
1882 2011-06-10 15:32:24 <anddam> do two forked wallets use same addresses?
1883 2011-06-10 15:32:49 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: indeed, wxwidgets is PITA
1884 2011-06-10 15:33:08 <jrmithdobbs> what do you mean by forked wallets?
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1887 2011-06-10 15:33:24 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: me?
1888 2011-06-10 15:33:28 <jrmithdobbs> yes
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1890 2011-06-10 15:33:39 <anddam> I was referring to phantomcircuit's line
1891 2011-06-10 15:33:48 <jrmithdobbs> oh
1892 2011-06-10 15:33:48 <anddam> <phantomcircuit> lupine_85, giant headache we accidentally forked the wallet
1893 2011-06-10 15:33:53 <jrmithdobbs> ya missed that
1894 2011-06-10 15:34:02 <anddam> my guess is you copy wallet to another computer then run both clients
1895 2011-06-10 15:34:12 <jrmithdobbs> ya seeing what he said that's what he meant
1896 2011-06-10 15:34:21 <anddam> what happens in that case?
1897 2011-06-10 15:34:23 <jrmithdobbs> but yes they use the same addresses up to the point they were split
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1901 2011-06-10 15:34:39 <jrmithdobbs> since obviously one can't know about the other's generated keys
1902 2011-06-10 15:34:51 <anddam> as long as you've both you're fine right?
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1904 2011-06-10 15:35:03 <anddam> I mean the problem would be in different transactions
1905 2011-06-10 15:36:04 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: mostly the issue would be in change txns and in any newly generated addresses
1906 2011-06-10 15:36:13 <jrmithdobbs> but ya so long as you have both it can be fixed ... with a lot of effort
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1908 2011-06-10 15:36:44 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: back to testing OS X build, what should "bitcoin" do?
1909 2011-06-10 15:36:53 <jrmithdobbs> should launch gui
1910 2011-06-10 15:37:08 <anddam> so I can confirm that's broken
1911 2011-06-10 15:37:12 <anddam> can you get the GUI?
1912 2011-06-10 15:37:17 <jrmithdobbs> but it has to be wrapped in .app package for it to do that though
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1914 2011-06-10 15:37:52 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: ya that was my whole problem, remember? gui would launch but throw 20 bajillion (internal wx-related) exception dialog boxes
1915 2011-06-10 15:38:13 <anddam> I remember but can't reproduce
1916 2011-06-10 15:38:42 <jrmithdobbs> thought you just said it wouldn't even launch for you?
1917 2011-06-10 15:38:44 <anddam> btw application bundle executable and built binary are way different
1918 2011-06-10 15:39:10 <anddam> showing nothing isn't the same as showing lot of exception dialogs
1919 2011-06-10 15:39:28 <jrmithdobbs> ya you can't get to the point to reproduce it ;P
1920 2011-06-10 15:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> hold on wxWidgets-devel installed while i was sleeping
1921 2011-06-10 15:39:54 <jrmithdobbs> let me see if the rest of my tree was in a sane starting state
1922 2011-06-10 15:40:08 bk128 has joined
1923 2011-06-10 15:40:13 <jrmithdobbs> (aka, it's building now)
1924 2011-06-10 15:40:37 <anddam> are you using the bitcoin binary built from source into application bundle?
1925 2011-06-10 15:40:45 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1926 2011-06-10 15:40:50 <anddam> I'm just using the provided application bundle
1927 2011-06-10 15:40:59 <anddam> makefile should handle thatâ¦
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1929 2011-06-10 15:41:34 <jrmithdobbs> what included app bundle? there's not one in the src tree
1930 2011-06-10 15:41:42 <jrmithdobbs> there's one in the build instructions you can grab
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1932 2011-06-10 15:43:36 <anddam> macports is fetching bitcoin-0.3.22-macosx.zip
1933 2011-06-10 15:43:53 <anddam> you're probably talking src only tarball
1934 2011-06-10 15:44:13 <jrmithdobbs> ya like i said, i'm starting from git source
1935 2011-06-10 15:44:16 <jrmithdobbs> not from port source
1936 2011-06-10 15:44:26 <anarchyx> why did they decide on 10 mins average between blocks? and not 1 minute or less? like 10 seconds.. so at least you can pay with it immediately in stores
1937 2011-06-10 15:44:40 <anarchyx> now we need to implement a third party
1938 2011-06-10 15:44:57 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: here they come, the dialogs
1939 2011-06-10 15:45:03 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: yup ;P
1940 2011-06-10 15:45:10 <jrmithdobbs> thought so
1941 2011-06-10 15:45:17 <jrmithdobbs> too bad the 2.8 packages are broken as fuck
1942 2011-06-10 15:45:44 <anddam> I hit cancel to hide following dialogs
1943 2011-06-10 15:45:51 <anddam> re-trying without cancel
1944 2011-06-10 15:45:51 <jrmithdobbs> right
1945 2011-06-10 15:45:57 diki has quit ()
1946 2011-06-10 15:46:01 <jrmithdobbs> they just keep coming if you don't cancel
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1948 2011-06-10 15:47:58 <anddam> that's the event managing
1949 2011-06-10 15:48:05 <anddam> you can trigger moving the mouse in and out the window
1950 2011-06-10 15:48:09 <jrmithdobbs> yup
1951 2011-06-10 15:48:14 <anddam> anyway they seem to be just three
1952 2011-06-10 15:48:21 <lupine_85> mm, exciting
1953 2011-06-10 15:48:27 <anddam> ../src/osx/core/bitmap.cpp(590): assert "err == noErr" failed in GetIconRef(): Error when constructing icon ref
1954 2011-06-10 15:48:28 <anddam> ../src/osx/carbon/dcclient.cpp(182): assert "window->MacGetCGContextRef() != NULL" failed in wxPaintDCImpl(): using wxPaintDC without being in a native paint event
1955 2011-06-10 15:48:28 <anddam> ../src/osx/window_osx.cpp(1501): assert "cgContext" failed in MacPaintBorders().
1956 2011-06-10 15:48:28 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: ya but over and over and over again
1957 2011-06-10 15:48:42 * lupine_85 would be writing more code but his cats are hassling him
1958 2011-06-10 15:48:42 <anddam> that's due to event loop, obviously
1959 2011-06-10 15:48:48 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: and none of them are bitcoin problems
1960 2011-06-10 15:49:14 <anddam> well probably some interface changed in wxW 2.9
1961 2011-06-10 15:49:21 <jrmithdobbs> nope
1962 2011-06-10 15:49:22 eval has joined
1963 2011-06-10 15:49:25 <jrmithdobbs> bitcoin started off as wx 2.9
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1967 2011-06-10 15:52:14 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,block
1968 2011-06-10 15:52:15 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
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1971 2011-06-10 15:53:49 <arienh4> ;;bc,count
1972 2011-06-10 15:53:49 <gribble> Error: "bc,count" is not a valid command.
1973 2011-06-10 15:53:53 <arienh4> ;;bc,blocks
1974 2011-06-10 15:53:53 <gribble> 129830
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1986 2011-06-10 16:03:41 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: I see, binary application bundle is statically linked, who's providing it?
1987 2011-06-10 16:04:00 <anddam> I mean what wxWidgets version is being used?
1988 2011-06-10 16:04:09 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: you can. build instructions are in build-macosx in doc dir
1989 2011-06-10 16:04:51 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: as long as I'm using same wxwidgets library I'm gonna have the same dialog issue
1990 2011-06-10 16:05:10 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: yes
1991 2011-06-10 16:05:33 <jrmithdobbs> anddam: build instructions for the wx used for the statically linked binary are in that doc
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1993 2011-06-10 16:08:38 <anddam> two of the message are about MacGetCGContextRef()
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1996 2011-06-10 16:10:16 benlake is now known as webDefeatist
1997 2011-06-10 16:10:21 <anddam> I have to (sadly) admit that this is one case in which I see the point in using Java
1998 2011-06-10 16:10:37 <jrmithdobbs> nah just using something besides wx
1999 2011-06-10 16:12:17 <peter345978> Quick question about TESTNET: how come it isn't generating blocks, or at least they are not at 10-minute intervals? I see block 23475 is 34 minutes old right now. Not enough miners?
2000 2011-06-10 16:13:12 <Optimo> could the client be made to accept the base160 address (without checksum) ?
2001 2011-06-10 16:14:17 <osmosis> Im getting transction fee prompts that im told are a bug.
2002 2011-06-10 16:14:33 <osmosis> 0.3.22-beta
2003 2011-06-10 16:14:41 <osmosis> same issue in previous release
2004 2011-06-10 16:15:23 <osmosis> says transaction is over the size limit.
2005 2011-06-10 16:16:35 webDefeatist is now known as benlake
2006 2011-06-10 16:17:03 <jav_> Just to let you guys know: I summarized my previous points about a more flexible fee structure in this post: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14571.0
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2009 2011-06-10 16:20:41 <jav_> osmosis: did the person, who claimed this to be a bug, give you a reason?
2010 2011-06-10 16:21:18 <osmosis> jav_, they looked at the blockexplorer and said they couldnt see any reason why the block would require a fee.
2011 2011-06-10 16:21:51 <jav_> osmosis: you didn't send the transaction yet, did you? how can they look at it on blockexplorer then?
2012 2011-06-10 16:22:11 <osmosis> jav_, this has happened multiple times.
2013 2011-06-10 16:22:21 <osmosis> jav_, the previous block was this one I believe. http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BDcSqGM2t5FkyqseyFvmNZfqqjaQEw1k6
2014 2011-06-10 16:23:29 <osmosis> jav_, they also told me i could set the fee to 0.005 , but that doesnt seem to work either.
2015 2011-06-10 16:25:01 <jav_> osmosis: you are linking to an address... the address received two transactions, one without a fee, the other with a fee... so are you talking about the one with a fee? this one: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/dc811f4ca620b0b39467fed34dce5644899c09f949468c0547f1d5495c80c7e2#o1 ?
2016 2011-06-10 16:26:07 <jav_> osmosis: I don't really understand all the corner cases of fee handling either... it doesn't seem like a large transaction, so my guess would be that the fee was for "recently used coins"
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2018 2011-06-10 16:27:19 <jav_> osmosis: in any case, looking at past transactions doesn't really say much for anything you are trying to do now... if it happens to be an "unfortunate" set of coins that the transaction uses, than there might well be a fee for "young coins" etc.
2019 2011-06-10 16:27:41 <osmosis> jav_, i could send this one and we could look at that.
2020 2011-06-10 16:28:29 <jav_> osmosis: I'm not an expert on fees... I might not be able to tell much from the logs
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2023 2011-06-10 16:29:20 <jav_> osmosis: I think it's unlikely that it's a bug... well, I do consider the current behaviour buggy in a way as it is hard to understand what's going on. Maybe a "explain reason for fee" dialog is what's needed
2024 2011-06-10 16:30:04 <osmosis> jav_, that sounds cool
2025 2011-06-10 16:30:36 <osmosis> some people learning about bitcoin dont understand what the fees are about.
2026 2011-06-10 16:32:10 <arienh4> jav_: I haven't seen anything that claims that recently used coins incur a fee.
2027 2011-06-10 16:32:17 <arienh4> I've heard hearsay, but nothing more.
2028 2011-06-10 16:33:06 <jav_> arienh4: The client includes this error message: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least %s because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently received funds
2029 2011-06-10 16:33:27 <arienh4> jav_: Yes, that's what I'll count as hearsay.
2030 2011-06-10 16:33:37 <arienh4> The wiki doesn't seem to include it.
2031 2011-06-10 16:33:56 <jav_> arienh4: stuff in the source code is hearsay? .. but things on the wiki aren't? ;-P
2032 2011-06-10 16:34:06 <arienh4> jav_: That's only a string.
2033 2011-06-10 16:35:55 <arienh4> jav_: Transactions with a lot of confirmations have a higher priority.
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2039 2011-06-10 16:39:59 <jav_> arienh4: I find the fee code confusing to read, but I guess you are right
2040 2011-06-10 16:40:11 <arienh4> 0.01 BTC fee if sending any transaction less than 0.01 BTC
2041 2011-06-10 16:40:20 <arienh4> 0.01 BTC fee if sending any transaction less than 0.01 BTC
2042 2011-06-10 16:40:28 <arienh4> 0.01 BTC fee per kilobyte of transaction
2043 2011-06-10 16:40:48 <arienh4> If the blocksize is over 4kB, free transactions in the above rules are only allowed if the transaction's priority is above a certain level.
2044 2011-06-10 16:41:37 <arienh4> Priority is increased based on a coin's confirmations and the transaction fee, and reduced if there's more data.
2045 2011-06-10 16:41:41 gps_ has joined
2046 2011-06-10 16:43:48 bk128 has joined
2047 2011-06-10 16:44:06 <jav_> arienh4: I guess the "recently received founds" only affect it indirectly... the coin selection algorithm won't consider them if they are too young and might build a big transaction, which then cost money... so actually _not_ using "recently received funds" is the problem... kinda backwards =)
2048 2011-06-10 16:44:25 <arienh4> Err, no.
2049 2011-06-10 16:44:31 bk128 has quit (Client Quit)
2050 2011-06-10 16:44:33 <arienh4> I just said. Transactions with a lot of confirmations have a higher priority.
2051 2011-06-10 16:44:44 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
2052 2011-06-10 16:45:02 <jav_> arienh4: are you also disputing, that the coin selection algorithms prefers older coins?
2053 2011-06-10 16:45:18 <arienh4> jav_: No.
2054 2011-06-10 16:45:20 <arienh4> Someone spamming the network will almost certainly be re-using the same coins, which will lower the priority of their transactions.
2055 2011-06-10 16:46:04 <arienh4> So it doesn't affect it indirectly. It directly lowers the priority of the transaction.
2056 2011-06-10 16:46:42 <arienh4> I'm still waiting for someone to build a Bitcoin client that's merely a fork of the official one, but for advanced users.
2057 2011-06-10 16:47:24 <arienh4> So you could add nodes to peer with in the UI, set non-standard transaction fees, set fees per transaction yourself, see the size of the transaction, decide what address they're coming from, all those kinds of things.
2058 2011-06-10 16:47:26 <jav_> arienh4: I was talking about the "recently received funds" affecting the fees indirectly... priority directly, sure
2059 2011-06-10 16:47:49 <arienh4> jav_: If the priority is too low you have to increase it by adding a fee.
2060 2011-06-10 16:49:10 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
2061 2011-06-10 16:49:46 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
2062 2011-06-10 16:49:54 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
2063 2011-06-10 16:50:06 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
2064 2011-06-10 16:50:56 <jav_> arienh4: what I'm saying is: The coin algorithm tries to build a small transaction from old coins. If it has bad options it might build a big transaction, which requires a fee... if I then wait, let some of my younger coins mature, and try again, I might be able to build a smaller transaction not requiring a fee... this gives the impression, that age of coins affects fee. But it's only indirectly, and actually in reverse to wait the error message states
2065 2011-06-10 16:51:09 <jav_> anyway, I'm babbling... glad we talked this through ;-)
2066 2011-06-10 16:51:30 <arienh4> jav_: That's true, but really far-fetched.
2067 2011-06-10 16:51:40 <MasterChief> phantomcircuit you know genjix right?
2068 2011-06-10 16:51:48 Lorenz has joined
2069 2011-06-10 16:52:17 <jav_> arienh4: It's a typical advice you see on the forum to "wait a little" and try again if you are prompted for a fee, doesn't seem so far-fetched to me
2070 2011-06-10 16:52:37 johnnympereira5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2071 2011-06-10 16:52:40 <arienh4> jav_: No, your reasoning for it is far-fetched.
2072 2011-06-10 16:53:18 MB123789 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2073 2011-06-10 16:53:33 <arienh4> Waiting a little also helps if it's the age of the coins used in the transaction effecting the fee, rather than the fact that older coins make for a bigger transaction.
2074 2011-06-10 16:53:47 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, hes right next to me, why
2075 2011-06-10 16:54:11 <MasterChief> ah right i just needed to ask some questions about britcoin
2076 2011-06-10 16:54:25 <phantomcircuit> you can ask me
2077 2011-06-10 16:54:38 x5x`brb is now known as x5x`brb`brb
2078 2011-06-10 16:54:47 <MasterChief> ok why can i only withdraw btc to 2 decimal places?
2079 2011-06-10 16:54:53 <jav_> arienh4: but didn't you just stated earlier that the age of the coins doesn't affect the fee? .. of course I _can_ add more fee to increase the priority of a transaction with young coins, but the client won't prompt me for that
2080 2011-06-10 16:55:22 <arienh4> jav_: The client will ask for a free if the priority is too low to be accepted.
2081 2011-06-10 16:55:28 savetheinternet has joined
2082 2011-06-10 16:55:29 <arienh4> Err, a fee.
2083 2011-06-10 16:55:55 <jav_> arienh4: where do you see that code?
2084 2011-06-10 16:56:05 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, avoid fees but i guess that should really just be, withdraws must be > 0.01 and leave either 0 or > 0.01 in your account
2085 2011-06-10 16:56:29 <MasterChief> oh
2086 2011-06-10 16:56:37 X-Scale has joined
2087 2011-06-10 16:56:50 <arienh4> jav_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
2088 2011-06-10 16:57:41 zooko has joined
2089 2011-06-10 16:57:59 <MasterChief> i did a withdrawl that should have left 0 in the account
2090 2011-06-10 16:58:26 <MasterChief> it was .7654054
2091 2011-06-10 16:58:40 erle- has joined
2092 2011-06-10 16:58:41 <MasterChief> it left the .0054054
2093 2011-06-10 16:58:43 purpleposeidon has joined
2094 2011-06-10 16:59:14 <phantomcircuit> that's unfortunate
2095 2011-06-10 16:59:34 <erle-> ?
2096 2011-06-10 16:59:52 <MasterChief> what do you mean
2097 2011-06-10 16:59:53 <jav_> arienh4: ok.. so we have come full circle, haven't we? .. the error message is in fact correct and "recently used funds" can incur a fee
2098 2011-06-10 16:59:55 <savetheinternet> I can't compile Bitcoin (source from GitHub). Not sure if it's a problem with Debian testing or what, but here's the build log: http://pastie.org/2048273
2099 2011-06-10 17:00:02 <arienh4> jav_: Yep.
2100 2011-06-10 17:00:24 <arienh4> jav_: I never said it wasn't true, just that I hadn't seen anything claiming it was. Now I have.
2101 2011-06-10 17:00:56 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, im working on new exchange software, hopefully issues like that will not persist in the future
2102 2011-06-10 17:01:08 p0s has quit (Quit: router hardware maintenance)
2103 2011-06-10 17:01:25 <MasterChief> ah it was a bug?
2104 2011-06-10 17:01:27 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2105 2011-06-10 17:01:58 Netsniper has joined
2106 2011-06-10 17:03:07 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, not a bug exactly, more a lack of batch transaction processing
2107 2011-06-10 17:03:33 Titeuf_87 has joined
2108 2011-06-10 17:03:46 <MasterChief> is there anyway i can get the rest out?
2109 2011-06-10 17:03:50 <MasterChief> i know its not much but still
2110 2011-06-10 17:03:59 stahi has joined
2111 2011-06-10 17:04:58 jav_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2112 2011-06-10 17:05:22 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, well im hacking bitcoind so that it *never* uses a fee
2113 2011-06-10 17:05:53 <MasterChief> ok
2114 2011-06-10 17:06:02 <MasterChief> ill wait
2115 2011-06-10 17:06:16 <phantomcircuit> but id still need to batch transactions so that the total btc/transaction isn't <0.01
2116 2011-06-10 17:06:20 <MasterChief> can i ask you about another bug i may have found too
2117 2011-06-10 17:06:29 zooko has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2118 2011-06-10 17:07:21 <MasterChief> pm?
2119 2011-06-10 17:09:34 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
2120 2011-06-10 17:10:24 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
2121 2011-06-10 17:10:54 zertam has quit (Quit: zertam)
2122 2011-06-10 17:11:15 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2123 2011-06-10 17:11:37 <phantomcircuit> MasterChief, sure
2124 2011-06-10 17:12:34 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
2125 2011-06-10 17:12:45 da2ce7 has joined
2126 2011-06-10 17:12:57 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: I'm not going to build from repo anyway
2127 2011-06-10 17:14:10 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2128 2011-06-10 17:14:24 scott` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2129 2011-06-10 17:14:39 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
2130 2011-06-10 17:14:42 scott` has joined
2131 2011-06-10 17:16:14 zyb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2132 2011-06-10 17:16:20 ChuckSchumer has joined
2133 2011-06-10 17:16:23 <TommyBoy3G> dudes
2134 2011-06-10 17:16:37 <TommyBoy3G> lets make some exchange website
2135 2011-06-10 17:16:52 <TommyBoy3G> i dont know how to code, but can do all business releated things
2136 2011-06-10 17:17:11 stahi has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2137 2011-06-10 17:17:36 <TommyBoy3G> http://falkvinge.net/2011/06/10/bitcoins-four-hurdles-part-four-exchanges/
2138 2011-06-10 17:17:42 <TommyBoy3G> and we need more then one of them
2139 2011-06-10 17:18:43 da2ce7 has joined
2140 2011-06-10 17:18:56 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2141 2011-06-10 17:21:15 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
2142 2011-06-10 17:23:12 RualStorge has joined
2143 2011-06-10 17:23:28 <phantomcircuit> TommyBoy3G, i suggest you look into the legal implications before trying
2144 2011-06-10 17:24:01 <Optimo> anyone with a good node address to share?
2145 2011-06-10 17:24:12 <TommyBoy3G> phantomcircuit well its possible to make, just need to use some countries with right laws
2146 2011-06-10 17:24:43 eoss has joined
2147 2011-06-10 17:25:09 <phantomcircuit> TommyBoy3G, that guys main issue is that moving funds to mtgox takes days, there is literally nothing that can be done about that without the financial industry playing nice
2148 2011-06-10 17:26:03 <TommyBoy3G> but why he dont accept credit cards trough some escarow service?
2149 2011-06-10 17:26:25 mmoya has joined
2150 2011-06-10 17:26:45 <phantomcircuit> TommyBoy3G, is that a joke? because they would be shutdown within days
2151 2011-06-10 17:27:16 RualStorge has left ()
2152 2011-06-10 17:27:32 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2153 2011-06-10 17:28:20 <TommyBoy3G> phantomcircuit i see problems right now, its all about laws, that dont alow them to windraw more then 1k $
2154 2011-06-10 17:28:29 <TommyBoy3G> but if you just get to other country
2155 2011-06-10 17:28:37 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: There are plenty of exchanges. Adding another one won't fix the problem in that article.
2156 2011-06-10 17:28:38 <TommyBoy3G> eg some offshore
2157 2011-06-10 17:28:53 <arienh4> Optimo: 173.242.112.53
2158 2011-06-10 17:29:20 <phantomcircuit> TommyBoy3G, if you accept funds or send funds out of or into the us, and you fail to follow us law, you can NEVER again enter the US without being procesuted
2159 2011-06-10 17:29:24 <phantomcircuit> TommyBoy3G, have fun with that
2160 2011-06-10 17:29:30 <TommyBoy3G> arienh4 i understand, but we need that in every country we had atleast one good exchange
2161 2011-06-10 17:29:41 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Why?
2162 2011-06-10 17:29:50 da2ce7 has joined
2163 2011-06-10 17:29:52 <TommyBoy3G> phantomcircuit i dont live in US
2164 2011-06-10 17:29:55 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, funds sent within a country often clear instantly
2165 2011-06-10 17:30:10 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: Yes, but I won't have anyone to trade with in mine.
2166 2011-06-10 17:30:13 <TommyBoy3G> and i dont know Us laws, but well, you cant buy what u want in us?
2167 2011-06-10 17:30:13 <phantomcircuit> funds sent to britcoin clear instantly and are then processed onto the site daily
2168 2011-06-10 17:30:23 <TommyBoy3G> and i will not create business in us
2169 2011-06-10 17:30:23 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2170 2011-06-10 17:30:27 <ezl> i'm looking for guidance with the mtgox socket -- anyone here work with it a lot?
2171 2011-06-10 17:30:37 <phantomcircuit> mtgox socket?
2172 2011-06-10 17:30:39 quellhorst has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2173 2011-06-10 17:30:39 <ezl> i'm confused because the trade messages don't seem to match up with the depth of book changes
2174 2011-06-10 17:30:41 <phantomcircuit> you mean their api
2175 2011-06-10 17:30:45 <arienh4> I don't think a Dutch exchange will be very successful.
2176 2011-06-10 17:30:48 <phantomcircuit> oh you mean the trade api
2177 2011-06-10 17:31:06 <ezl> phantomcircuit: i mean the websocket api http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=5855.0
2178 2011-06-10 17:31:07 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, i think you underestimate the volume
2179 2011-06-10 17:31:20 <TommyBoy3G> it took me 6 days to load money to mtgox, and it sux
2180 2011-06-10 17:31:20 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2181 2011-06-10 17:31:23 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: In the Netherlands? I doubt it's going to be high.
2182 2011-06-10 17:32:00 AStove has quit ()
2183 2011-06-10 17:32:28 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, i was in amsterdam for about a week, people seemed at least genuinely interested
2184 2011-06-10 17:32:52 <phantomcircuit> ezl, websockets are retarded, literally the underlying protocol is broken
2185 2011-06-10 17:32:56 peter3459781 has joined
2186 2011-06-10 17:33:00 <phantomcircuit> nobody should be using them for anything ever
2187 2011-06-10 17:33:06 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: Was there some kind of Bitcoin-related event or something?
2188 2011-06-10 17:33:12 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, no
2189 2011-06-10 17:33:20 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: Then who did you talk to?
2190 2011-06-10 17:33:40 <phantomcircuit> anarchist types
2191 2011-06-10 17:33:52 <ezl> phantomcircuit: i'm not knowledgeable aboiut why that is the case -- can you point me in the direction of literature on it
2192 2011-06-10 17:34:03 <phantomcircuit> ezl, i can tell you right now
2193 2011-06-10 17:34:21 <phantomcircuit> ezl, websockets use a very simple framing mechanism for message 0xFF<UTF-8>0xFF
2194 2011-06-10 17:34:25 <phantomcircuit> that is a message
2195 2011-06-10 17:34:26 scott`` has joined
2196 2011-06-10 17:34:27 peter345978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2197 2011-06-10 17:34:33 <phantomcircuit> except 0xFF is valid in UTF-8
2198 2011-06-10 17:34:49 X-Scale has left ()
2199 2011-06-10 17:34:50 <phantomcircuit> so basically the standard is fundamentally flawed
2200 2011-06-10 17:34:50 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: Aren't a whole lot of those either.
2201 2011-06-10 17:35:01 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, it doesn't matter, it's still valid
2202 2011-06-10 17:35:05 <zid`> wait, 0xFF is valid utf-8?
2203 2011-06-10 17:35:18 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: My point was that there were not a lot of people using Bitcoin in the Netherlands.
2204 2011-06-10 17:35:20 <zid`> I thought it explicitly wasn't, to make telnet work
2205 2011-06-10 17:35:21 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2206 2011-06-10 17:35:26 <arienh4> You said there were, by saying a minority was interested.
2207 2011-06-10 17:35:28 <TommyBoy3G> in my country noones talking about bitcoin, but i'm not starting, because right now its hard to put money in it
2208 2011-06-10 17:35:31 <phantomcircuit> zid`, 0xFF is the start byte of 4 byte character points, of which there are like 2 but still
2209 2011-06-10 17:35:42 <zid`> so just ignore those, gotcha :P
2210 2011-06-10 17:35:45 scott` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2211 2011-06-10 17:35:56 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Are they even legal in Germany?
2212 2011-06-10 17:36:03 <GOP-USA_dotcom> http://members.beforeitsnews.com/story/700/420/Bitcoin_the_Bit-con:_Avoid_the_Bubble,_Stay_High_and_Dry.html
2213 2011-06-10 17:36:15 <phantomcircuit> zid`, facepalm, yes well this is what you get when hipster douchehats design protocols
2214 2011-06-10 17:36:37 da2ce7 has joined
2215 2011-06-10 17:36:52 <TommyBoy3G> arienh4 why you care about germany
2216 2011-06-10 17:37:02 <zid`> not being able to send utf-8 over telnet is pretty silly :/
2217 2011-06-10 17:37:16 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2218 2011-06-10 17:37:18 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Because that's where my client tells me you're from.
2219 2011-06-10 17:37:20 <TommyBoy3G> I'm talking about starting exchange company which office will be offshore company
2220 2011-06-10 17:37:36 Moonies has joined
2221 2011-06-10 17:37:47 <TommyBoy3G> like panama, or other exotic islands
2222 2011-06-10 17:38:02 <TommyBoy3G> they dont control such things
2223 2011-06-10 17:38:09 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Didn't you want an exchange in every country?
2224 2011-06-10 17:38:10 <TommyBoy3G> only money loundary etc..
2225 2011-06-10 17:38:29 <TommyBoy3G> arienh4 i want it to be able to exchange in every country
2226 2011-06-10 17:38:44 <TommyBoy3G> why bitcoin should be illegal?
2227 2011-06-10 17:38:59 <arienh4> Aren't there very strict laws in Germany regarding cryptography?
2228 2011-06-10 17:39:12 <TommyBoy3G> i'm not from germany
2229 2011-06-10 17:39:18 <TommyBoy3G> i'm from lithunian
2230 2011-06-10 17:39:27 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: You're connecting from Germany.
2231 2011-06-10 17:39:37 <TommyBoy3G> you are not right
2232 2011-06-10 17:39:42 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: I am.
2233 2011-06-10 17:39:56 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: You are connecting to this IRC server from Germany, using a proxy or whatever.
2234 2011-06-10 17:40:07 <TommyBoy3G> nop
2235 2011-06-10 17:40:11 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rc2a93d7278df gentoo/net-p2p/ (5 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: remove 0.3.22_rc* http://tinyurl.com/3odkvpa
2236 2011-06-10 17:40:16 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G [TomyBoy007@78.56.167.140]
2237 2011-06-10 17:40:26 <TommyBoy3G> soo
2238 2011-06-10 17:40:28 <TommyBoy3G> its my ip
2239 2011-06-10 17:40:34 <arienh4> Located in Germany.
2240 2011-06-10 17:40:39 <TommyBoy3G> and my ip not in germany
2241 2011-06-10 17:40:55 <arienh4> 78.56.167.140 is in Germany.
2242 2011-06-10 17:41:06 <TommyBoy3G> http://whois.domaintools.com/78.56.167.140
2243 2011-06-10 17:41:07 <TommyBoy3G> omg
2244 2011-06-10 17:41:23 <TommyBoy3G> arienh4 dude..
2245 2011-06-10 17:41:27 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2246 2011-06-10 17:41:34 <TommyBoy3G> what diffrence
2247 2011-06-10 17:41:36 <eps1> OMGy, my ip is german?!!eleventy one
2248 2011-06-10 17:41:46 <TommyBoy3G> i'm not from germany
2249 2011-06-10 17:41:49 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: You asked a question, then said I was wrong when I answered it.
2250 2011-06-10 17:41:58 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: I never said you were German, I said your IP was.
2251 2011-06-10 17:42:07 <TommyBoy3G> my ip not in germany :D
2252 2011-06-10 17:42:11 <TommyBoy3G> its in my computer
2253 2011-06-10 17:42:25 <eps1> you are blowing our minds
2254 2011-06-10 17:42:27 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Your IP is German.
2255 2011-06-10 17:42:46 <TommyBoy3G> just look at domaintools
2256 2011-06-10 17:43:06 ChuckSchumer has joined
2257 2011-06-10 17:43:16 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: I've seen the whois.
2258 2011-06-10 17:43:21 <TommyBoy3G> soo
2259 2011-06-10 17:43:24 <TommyBoy3G> look at ripe
2260 2011-06-10 17:43:32 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: I've seen the whois.
2261 2011-06-10 17:43:48 <TommyBoy3G> your GEO feature of client is outdated
2262 2011-06-10 17:44:07 <arienh4> Client? I looked it up online.
2263 2011-06-10 17:44:21 <TommyBoy3G> http://www.db.ripe.net/whois?searchtext=78.56.167.140&searchSubmit=search
2264 2011-06-10 17:44:25 <TommyBoy3G> what u see
2265 2011-06-10 17:44:32 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: That's not where I looked it up.
2266 2011-06-10 17:44:33 <TommyBoy3G> Lithuania
2267 2011-06-10 17:44:46 <TommyBoy3G> ripe is responsible for all ips
2268 2011-06-10 17:44:53 <arienh4> Wrong.
2269 2011-06-10 17:45:01 <TommyBoy3G> he is giving them in europe to providers
2270 2011-06-10 17:45:08 <arienh4> In Europe, yes.
2271 2011-06-10 17:45:11 <TommyBoy3G> ok, think what u want
2272 2011-06-10 17:45:14 sirius is now known as sirius-m
2273 2011-06-10 17:45:18 <arienh4> It got re-allocated, obviously.
2274 2011-06-10 17:45:19 <TommyBoy3G> i'm made my mind about u already
2275 2011-06-10 17:45:30 <arienh4> I was using cached data, it seems. Not my fault.
2276 2011-06-10 17:45:40 <arienh4> IPs aren't re-allocated by country every day y'know.
2277 2011-06-10 17:45:42 <TommyBoy3G> i have this ip for more then few years
2278 2011-06-10 17:45:50 DrewSJ has joined
2279 2011-06-10 17:46:04 <TommyBoy3G> RegDate: 2006-08-29
2280 2011-06-10 17:46:04 <TommyBoy3G> Updated: 2009-05-18
2281 2011-06-10 17:46:15 <TommyBoy3G> i'm telling u using all database
2282 2011-06-10 17:46:18 <Optimo> arienh4, thanks
2283 2011-06-10 17:46:19 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
2284 2011-06-10 17:46:19 <gribble> 129848
2285 2011-06-10 17:46:22 machine1 has joined
2286 2011-06-10 17:46:22 <TommyBoy3G> like 10 years old
2287 2011-06-10 17:46:23 <arienh4> Optimo: No problem.
2288 2011-06-10 17:46:47 <arienh4> It was registered with RIPE in 2006.
2289 2011-06-10 17:46:53 <spq> well, im from germany and we dont have any special law regarding to crypto...
2290 2011-06-10 17:46:54 <arienh4> Not with your ISP.
2291 2011-06-10 17:47:02 <arienh4> spq: Really? Okay, I wasn't sure.
2292 2011-06-10 17:47:33 <TommyBoy3G> huh arienh4 :D ok i'm from germany
2293 2011-06-10 17:47:40 RenaKunisaki has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2294 2011-06-10 17:47:48 <ezl> has anyone downloaded the console app for mtgox? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13007.0
2295 2011-06-10 17:47:48 diki has joined
2296 2011-06-10 17:47:50 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: By the way, you fooled Freenode as well.
2297 2011-06-10 17:48:02 <arienh4> Since it connected you to the German server.
2298 2011-06-10 17:48:15 Mononofu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2299 2011-06-10 17:49:19 M4v3R has quit (Quit: M4v3R)
2300 2011-06-10 17:50:11 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r04a83d82f5a1 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest bitcoind-0.3.22.ebuild bitcoind-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: IUSE=eligius for 0.3.22+ http://tinyurl.com/678vrno
2301 2011-06-10 17:50:33 <TommyBoy3G> arienh4 its freenode server nearest me
2302 2011-06-10 17:50:42 <TommyBoy3G> well anyway, dont talk about my location
2303 2011-06-10 17:50:47 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2304 2011-06-10 17:50:59 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: You wanted to discuss it for some reaon.
2305 2011-06-10 17:51:23 <TommyBoy3G> because you not right
2306 2011-06-10 17:51:26 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: And erm, Vilnius is farther away than Berlin?
2307 2011-06-10 17:51:37 camaleon has joined
2308 2011-06-10 17:51:38 <TommyBoy3G> 1200 km
2309 2011-06-10 17:51:51 <CIA-31> bitcoinj: xiaofengguo@google.com * r90 /trunk/pom.xml:
2310 2011-06-10 17:51:51 <CIA-31> bitcoinj: Add maven support for bitcoinj.
2311 2011-06-10 17:51:51 <CIA-31> bitcoinj: After this CL, you can use "mvn install" to build / test the project.
2312 2011-06-10 17:51:58 <TommyBoy3G> its like 3 countries from me
2313 2011-06-10 17:52:00 cmykbo has joined
2314 2011-06-10 17:52:10 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Vilnius is in Lithuania.
2315 2011-06-10 17:52:27 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2316 2011-06-10 17:52:27 <arienh4> It's the capital, even.
2317 2011-06-10 17:52:29 <TommyBoy3G> yes
2318 2011-06-10 17:52:34 <TommyBoy3G> and i'm live here
2319 2011-06-10 17:52:43 Incitatus has joined
2320 2011-06-10 17:52:43 <arienh4> You said that the German server was closest to you.
2321 2011-06-10 17:52:46 Moonies has joined
2322 2011-06-10 17:52:46 <spq> berlin != frankfurt - berlin is our capital but not the main IX - frankfurt is where the big network wires go :)
2323 2011-06-10 17:52:58 <TommyBoy3G> yes, so what?
2324 2011-06-10 17:53:00 <arienh4> spq: I was talking about Vilnius.
2325 2011-06-10 17:53:05 <TommyBoy3G> freenode have server in lithuanian?
2326 2011-06-10 17:53:09 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Yes.
2327 2011-06-10 17:53:17 <arienh4> sendak.freenode.net is in Vilnius
2328 2011-06-10 17:53:31 <Optimo> arienh4: that fixed me right up. thanks again
2329 2011-06-10 17:53:46 <arienh4> Optimo: It's this one, by the way. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
2330 2011-06-10 17:54:02 <TommyBoy3G> u right arienh4
2331 2011-06-10 17:54:16 <arienh4> TommyBoy3G: Of course.
2332 2011-06-10 17:54:25 <Optimo> oh that is helpful
2333 2011-06-10 17:54:32 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2334 2011-06-10 17:54:38 <TommyBoy3G> i dont give a shit, what is where, i just use it and its ok
2335 2011-06-10 17:54:52 <TommyBoy3G> if i was in germany it was more secure and better for me
2336 2011-06-10 17:55:04 <Optimo> but what does this article mean?
2337 2011-06-10 17:55:36 <arienh4> Optimo: It's a network that relays transactions others find unacceptable.
2338 2011-06-10 17:55:38 da2ce7 has joined
2339 2011-06-10 17:55:38 <Optimo> fee-free transactions always (or until they get bored)
2340 2011-06-10 17:55:41 <arienh4> Like if they have too low TX fees.
2341 2011-06-10 17:55:49 <Optimo> ok. that's great.
2342 2011-06-10 17:55:55 mrh00d has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2343 2011-06-10 17:55:59 <arienh4> Optimo: Not fee-free, but lower anyway.
2344 2011-06-10 17:56:14 <TommyBoy3G> so lets make some exchange site?
2345 2011-06-10 17:56:37 camaleon is now known as Meneau
2346 2011-06-10 17:56:39 Meneau is now known as PotuLipo
2347 2011-06-10 17:56:41 PotuLipo is now known as Mersupi
2348 2011-06-10 17:56:42 <spq> TommyBoy3G: what are your special ideas?
2349 2011-06-10 17:56:43 Mersupi is now known as Telika
2350 2011-06-10 17:56:45 Telika is now known as Webio
2351 2011-06-10 17:56:48 subpar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2352 2011-06-10 17:57:04 TD has joined
2353 2011-06-10 17:57:12 <TommyBoy3G> open ofshore company
2354 2011-06-10 17:57:23 <TommyBoy3G> and start to make deals with bank, for money transfering
2355 2011-06-10 17:57:23 Mononofu has joined
2356 2011-06-10 17:58:11 <TommyBoy3G> in first its posible to make with escorows deals to transfer
2357 2011-06-10 17:58:26 <TommyBoy3G> they will take 2-4%
2358 2011-06-10 17:58:41 Webio is now known as Nijger
2359 2011-06-10 17:58:50 <spq> escrows? like moneybookers?
2360 2011-06-10 17:59:53 <TommyBoy3G> yep
2361 2011-06-10 18:00:19 <TommyBoy3G> btw for few tousends buks its possible to get bank license in dubai or smth
2362 2011-06-10 18:00:32 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2363 2011-06-10 18:00:51 <TommyBoy3G> hmm dont have spelling
2364 2011-06-10 18:01:31 M4v3R has joined
2365 2011-06-10 18:01:38 Lorenz has joined
2366 2011-06-10 18:04:14 arienh4 has quit (Quit: leaving)
2367 2011-06-10 18:04:21 arienh4 has joined
2368 2011-06-10 18:04:26 Nijger has quit ()
2369 2011-06-10 18:04:28 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2370 2011-06-10 18:04:59 da2ce7 has joined
2371 2011-06-10 18:06:49 <TommyBoy3G> like he told, we can make deal with 3 largest banks in eu
2372 2011-06-10 18:07:14 germanMNY has joined
2373 2011-06-10 18:07:15 <TommyBoy3G> and some of them have really fast transfers
2374 2011-06-10 18:07:33 peck has joined
2375 2011-06-10 18:07:36 X-Scale has joined
2376 2011-06-10 18:08:02 zyb has joined
2377 2011-06-10 18:08:24 <spq> what counts is instant transfer
2378 2011-06-10 18:08:57 <TommyBoy3G> half day
2379 2011-06-10 18:09:18 <TommyBoy3G> would be fast if you compare with mtgox 6 days in europe
2380 2011-06-10 18:09:25 <spq> currently most users just want some btc's - now... :)
2381 2011-06-10 18:09:53 <TommyBoy3G> yes, so they should be able to get them easy
2382 2011-06-10 18:09:55 <TommyBoy3G> to buy easy
2383 2011-06-10 18:10:12 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r14e476fa45ac gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest wxbitcoin-0.3.22.ebuild wxbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: IUSE=eligius for 0.3.22+ http://tinyurl.com/6xupmud
2384 2011-06-10 18:10:26 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2385 2011-06-10 18:10:51 Moonies has joined
2386 2011-06-10 18:12:05 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
2387 2011-06-10 18:12:18 mosimo has joined
2388 2011-06-10 18:12:25 bbear has joined
2389 2011-06-10 18:13:20 Stellar has joined
2390 2011-06-10 18:13:50 <bbear> hello
2391 2011-06-10 18:13:54 <bbear> I got a few questions.
2392 2011-06-10 18:14:11 <bbear> What's the number on the left of an unconfirmed transaction ?
2393 2011-06-10 18:14:24 cmykbo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2394 2011-06-10 18:14:30 <jrmithdobbs> zero
2395 2011-06-10 18:15:44 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
2396 2011-06-10 18:16:44 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2397 2011-06-10 18:17:14 fimp has joined
2398 2011-06-10 18:17:48 <bbear> on my computer it's three
2399 2011-06-10 18:17:56 <bbear> 3/unconfirmed.
2400 2011-06-10 18:18:51 <jrmithdobbs> number of blocks since txn made it into the blockchain
2401 2011-06-10 18:18:55 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2402 2011-06-10 18:18:58 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2406 2011-06-10 18:25:43 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2407 2011-06-10 18:26:06 Moonies has joined
2408 2011-06-10 18:26:31 citiz3n has joined
2409 2011-06-10 18:27:08 <spq> what happens when theres a big bug that later requires to restart the block chain? what would happen with sites like mtgox?
2410 2011-06-10 18:27:43 <phantomcircuit> spq, there is no rstart
2411 2011-06-10 18:27:54 <spq> (with restart i mean restart at the point before the bug was used)
2412 2011-06-10 18:28:03 <gmaxwell> spq: "restart the block chain" == "throw out bitcoin entirely", it's not something that people would agree to do.
2413 2011-06-10 18:28:21 <gmaxwell> spq: txn that made it in would get replayed and remined.
2414 2011-06-10 18:28:27 doc_m has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2415 2011-06-10 18:28:35 <jrmithdobbs> spq: depends on how far back it was, also not not probable to ever be agreed to
2416 2011-06-10 18:28:36 x5x`brb`brb is now known as x5x`brb
2417 2011-06-10 18:28:43 <jrmithdobbs> s/not not/not/
2418 2011-06-10 18:28:50 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2419 2011-06-10 18:28:57 <gmaxwell> There is some double-spend risk from that, but the amount depends on the fork depth.
2420 2011-06-10 18:29:09 <spq> so if theres such a bug, we either have to live with it or are in big trouble?
2421 2011-06-10 18:29:36 <gmaxwell> The prior time when this happened the resulting fork was 'only' 53 blocks deep.
2422 2011-06-10 18:29:56 <gps_> and it was quickly over written
2423 2011-06-10 18:30:08 <spq> ~ 10h
2424 2011-06-10 18:30:10 <arienh4> It would be very hard to convince everyone to fork the block chain though.
2425 2011-06-10 18:30:11 <spq> that was fast
2426 2011-06-10 18:30:15 <gmaxwell> At this point it's fairly unlikely that such an event would happen again, but you can help make it much less likely by writing another bitcoin implementation. :)
2427 2011-06-10 18:30:33 scott` has joined
2428 2011-06-10 18:31:11 <gmaxwell> spq: And people were warned about the issue within two blocks of the crazy event, so hopefully no one did any irreversable transactios during the 53 anyways.
2429 2011-06-10 18:31:24 da2ce7 has joined
2430 2011-06-10 18:31:27 <gmaxwell> There is an emergency notice facility in bitcoin too.
2431 2011-06-10 18:31:32 <arienh4> Hmm, I think instant transactions (in for example stores) would only be possible with some kind of trusted 3rd party.
2432 2011-06-10 18:32:01 <gmaxwell> arienh4: Yes, well. They're possible but risky. I've suggested the creation of a txn insurance service.
2433 2011-06-10 18:32:15 <arienh4> You could create a transaction that sets aside some coins to a recipient to be added later when both the sender and the third party sign it.
2434 2011-06-10 18:32:20 scott`` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2435 2011-06-10 18:32:27 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2436 2011-06-10 18:32:28 <gmaxwell> arienh4: the idea is that the insurance service monitors the network and the miners queues and decides if it is willing to take the reversal risk in exchange for a fee.
2437 2011-06-10 18:32:45 ChuckSchumer has joined
2438 2011-06-10 18:32:46 <arienh4> gmaxwell: I was taking a different approach.
2439 2011-06-10 18:32:50 <gmaxwell> arienh4: yes, you can also prepay, but you need to know the amount in advance.
2440 2011-06-10 18:32:55 <gmaxwell> 'prepay'
2441 2011-06-10 18:32:58 <arienh4> No, that's the point.
2442 2011-06-10 18:33:05 <gmaxwell> E.g. you don't need to know the payee.
2443 2011-06-10 18:33:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the emergency notice facility assumes that gavin isn't in france
2444 2011-06-10 18:33:09 <arienh4> You'd set some amount away that way
2445 2011-06-10 18:33:10 <jrmithdobbs> eg
2446 2011-06-10 18:33:21 <arienh4> And change is just refunded to you as usual
2447 2011-06-10 18:33:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: really not cool imho
2448 2011-06-10 18:33:59 <arienh4> The point of the third party is that it only signs a transaction once.
2449 2011-06-10 18:34:17 <arienh4> Therefore, so long as both parties trust that third-party, double-spending is impossible.
2450 2011-06-10 18:34:33 <gmaxwell> arienh4: you could also transfer coin into another type of brokering entity that uses a central database to prevent double spend. I call it "visa".
2451 2011-06-10 18:34:51 <arienh4> gmaxwell: Well, yes, but putting it in the block itself is a bit more manageable.
2452 2011-06-10 18:35:10 <gavinandresen> Y'all talking about the overflow bug that split the block chain last year?
2453 2011-06-10 18:35:11 <gmaxwell> arienh4: it's notâ in the sense that the block is the most inefficient storage mode ever invented by man. :)
2454 2011-06-10 18:35:12 <arienh4> That way, if the third-party doesn't sign it, you can have a time-out where the coins are refunded to it.
2455 2011-06-10 18:35:24 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: talking about that class of bugs at least.
2456 2011-06-10 18:35:30 <arienh4> gmaxwell: Fine, but I mean in the sense of verifiability and such.
2457 2011-06-10 18:35:59 <arienh4> If something happens to the third-party, you will get your coins back eventually.
2458 2011-06-10 18:36:42 <gavinandresen> I think that's even less of a problem than it was last year, given that getting the six biggest mining pools to implement a change would be easier than convincing hundreds of individuals. (and, as the incident last year showed, neither is super hard)
2459 2011-06-10 18:36:50 <jrmithdobbs> spq: not to mention that currently, deebit has veto power on any blockchain split decisions
2460 2011-06-10 18:37:04 <gavinandresen> (assuming it is a no-brainer obvious bug, of course)
2461 2011-06-10 18:37:05 <jrmithdobbs> spq: so better hopethe kgb doesn't find a bug they want to continue exploiting
2462 2011-06-10 18:37:08 <jrmithdobbs> (not a joke)
2463 2011-06-10 18:38:02 <spq> why deepbit?
2464 2011-06-10 18:38:08 <jrmithdobbs> figure it out
2465 2011-06-10 18:38:11 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately the notice feature is decreasingly useful as way of warning about an impending spit as more bitcoin txn are mediated through automatic interfaces.
2466 2011-06-10 18:38:18 <jrmithdobbs> because they have ~40% of hashing power is why
2467 2011-06-10 18:38:19 <spq> because of the ghashes?
2468 2011-06-10 18:38:33 <spq> ok
2469 2011-06-10 18:38:53 <jrmithdobbs> the rest of the comment i'll leave as an exercise for the user to figure out
2470 2011-06-10 18:39:52 <spq> is it important how much tx are embedded into a block?
2471 2011-06-10 18:40:29 <arienh4> So, with my idea, you'd first broadcast a transaction that requires the third-party's signature to be valid
2472 2011-06-10 18:40:44 <spq> if not, deepbit and the others could simply start working on blocks with only a single tx in it - the coin generation one
2473 2011-06-10 18:40:57 roconnor has joined
2474 2011-06-10 18:41:01 <jrmithdobbs> spq: eligius already rejects fee-less txns
2475 2011-06-10 18:41:01 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2476 2011-06-10 18:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> spq: so yes, that is possible
2477 2011-06-10 18:41:16 <gmaxwell> spq: Sure, >50% hash power can do a nice DOS attack.
2478 2011-06-10 18:41:21 Moonies has joined
2479 2011-06-10 18:41:22 <arienh4> Then, when that has enough confirmations, you sign a transaction sending that output to the merchant
2480 2011-06-10 18:41:29 <arienh4> and any change back to yourself
2481 2011-06-10 18:41:35 <gmaxwell> spq: there isn't a good way to prevnt that. if you required txns they'd just stuff them with spam if they wanted to DOS.
2482 2011-06-10 18:41:36 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: aka scrow
2483 2011-06-10 18:41:43 <arienh4> and then you send that to the mediator who signs and broadcasts it
2484 2011-06-10 18:41:50 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: ?
2485 2011-06-10 18:42:03 <spq> no, i wanted to say that they could help the network by stopping any transactions until the bug is fixed
2486 2011-06-10 18:42:04 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: and real automated escrow with timeouts and everything could be implemented if a few of the script ops were turned back on
2487 2011-06-10 18:42:09 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: sorry, escrow not scrow
2488 2011-06-10 18:42:15 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Yeah, exactly.
2489 2011-06-10 18:42:20 <arienh4> Escrow, right in the block.
2490 2011-06-10 18:42:26 <jrmithdobbs> yup
2491 2011-06-10 18:42:34 <arienh4> So verifiable to everyone.
2492 2011-06-10 18:42:55 <arienh4> And if the mediator refuses or is unable to sign, or you don't use it, it will eventually time out and refund you your coins.
2493 2011-06-10 18:43:04 <jrmithdobbs> things like that are exactly why it's a forth-like script instead of just a sig verification assignment to another user
2494 2011-06-10 18:43:18 johnnympereira5 has joined
2495 2011-06-10 18:43:34 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: actually if the script ops are reenabled you don't even need the third party
2496 2011-06-10 18:43:42 <jrmithdobbs> was what I was saying
2497 2011-06-10 18:43:45 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: You do.
2498 2011-06-10 18:43:49 <jrmithdobbs> you don't
2499 2011-06-10 18:43:52 <arienh4> Yes, you do.
2500 2011-06-10 18:43:58 <jrmithdobbs> why?
2501 2011-06-10 18:43:58 <arienh4> Otherwise, it won't stop double-spending.
2502 2011-06-10 18:44:13 <arienh4> The third-party is there because both parties know it will only sign one transaction for that output.
2503 2011-06-10 18:44:35 <arienh4> It will refuse to sign a second one.
2504 2011-06-10 18:44:43 <arienh4> Which is how it stops double-spending.
2505 2011-06-10 18:45:52 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: if the script is formed in such a way that it releases after x ammount of time or after a second sig from the sender and cancels based on a revoke sig from the sender
2506 2011-06-10 18:45:56 <jrmithdobbs> i don't think the 3rd party is needed
2507 2011-06-10 18:46:09 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: And what if I try a normal double-spending attack like that?
2508 2011-06-10 18:46:23 <arienh4> ie. signing the transaction twice in different blocks
2509 2011-06-10 18:46:26 <spq> gmaxwell: no, i wanted to say that they could help the network by stopping any transactions until the bug is fixed
2510 2011-06-10 18:46:29 <arienh4> To different people
2511 2011-06-10 18:47:10 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: the coins would count as spent since they're already inputs after the first one so unless there's a chain reorg it's not possible
2512 2011-06-10 18:47:21 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Do you know how double spending works?
2513 2011-06-10 18:47:49 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Mind you, the coins are held in escrow IN ADVANCE, before you know the recipient.
2514 2011-06-10 18:47:50 bbear has left ("Konversation terminated!")
2515 2011-06-10 18:48:00 <arienh4> That's the whole point, to make instant transfers possible.
2516 2011-06-10 18:48:04 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: and if there's a blockchain reorg between the initial txn and the release sig it doesn't matter ... if it gets reverted to before the initial txn after the release sig (which is very very unlikely if you use a sane 8-day escrow time or similar) then yes it could be double spent
2517 2011-06-10 18:48:17 <jrmithdobbs> we're talking two different things
2518 2011-06-10 18:48:33 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: I'm just talking about preventing a normal double-spending attack.
2519 2011-06-10 18:48:50 <jrmithdobbs> instant txn processing before in blockchain requires a 3rd party verifier
2520 2011-06-10 18:48:55 <jrmithdobbs> but escrow doesn't
2521 2011-06-10 18:49:08 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: I was talking about the former.
2522 2011-06-10 18:49:21 <arienh4> And I meant before 6 confirmations, not before in blockchain.
2523 2011-06-10 18:49:36 <jrmithdobbs> same applies whether before in block chain or before 6 confs though
2524 2011-06-10 18:49:39 <jrmithdobbs> samp principles
2525 2011-06-10 18:49:46 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2526 2011-06-10 18:49:49 <jrmithdobbs> s/samp/same/
2527 2011-06-10 18:50:00 <arienh4> The reason I prefer doing it in the block rather than just sending the third-party the money is because this way, the 3rd party has no incentive to cheat.
2528 2011-06-10 18:50:10 <arienh4> Whatever happens, they won't receive any money.
2529 2011-06-10 18:50:25 <arienh4> So the payer doesn't even have to trust them.
2530 2011-06-10 18:50:37 <jrmithdobbs> right and that could still be done without it having made it into a block, the 3rd party is a form of insurer just like visa is for merchants
2531 2011-06-10 18:50:42 sanity has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2532 2011-06-10 18:50:56 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: No, not really.
2533 2011-06-10 18:51:03 <arienh4> I don't want to give the third party my money.
2534 2011-06-10 18:51:03 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2535 2011-06-10 18:51:25 ArZa has left ()
2536 2011-06-10 18:51:29 <arienh4> If I pay with a Visa card, I'm giving Visa my money.
2537 2011-06-10 18:51:50 <arienh4> With my idea, all the 3rd party does is sign the transaction. It doesn't touch the money.
2538 2011-06-10 18:51:55 sanity has joined
2539 2011-06-10 18:52:01 <arienh4> It doesn't decide where the money goes.
2540 2011-06-10 18:52:04 <arienh4> Just if the money goes somewhere.
2541 2011-06-10 18:52:47 TD has joined
2542 2011-06-10 18:52:55 <spq> you could do that without using the blockchain
2543 2011-06-10 18:53:01 <arienh4> spq: How?
2544 2011-06-10 18:53:02 sanity has quit (Client Quit)
2545 2011-06-10 18:53:12 <arienh4> Keeping in mind I want instantaneous payment.
2546 2011-06-10 18:53:22 <arienh4> Without a possibility of double-spending.
2547 2011-06-10 18:54:23 <spq> hmm
2548 2011-06-10 18:54:27 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: you don't have to give the 3rd party any money
2549 2011-06-10 18:54:40 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: How?
2550 2011-06-10 18:54:42 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: the third party is there to gaurantee the txn
2551 2011-06-10 18:54:50 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: True.
2552 2011-06-10 18:54:54 <spq> you could create the transaction, but not send it to the network but to the 3rd party - the other side can check that theres a transaction for him - send its part and now the one who send the transaction to the 3rd party can give the 3rd party the ok
2553 2011-06-10 18:55:00 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: once the txn can be seen on the p2p network you're done
2554 2011-06-10 18:55:08 <jrmithdobbs> doesn't have to be in a block
2555 2011-06-10 18:55:24 <arienh4> spq: But then you still have to wait an hour for the transaction to be confirmed.
2556 2011-06-10 18:56:04 <jrmithdobbs> spq: no, the third party should IMMEDIATELY send it to the p2p network
2557 2011-06-10 18:56:13 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2558 2011-06-10 18:56:16 <jrmithdobbs> that way everyone involved can verify
2559 2011-06-10 18:56:29 scott- has joined
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2561 2011-06-10 18:56:36 <jrmithdobbs> if your goal is instant txn processing
2562 2011-06-10 18:56:55 <jrmithdobbs> if your goal is escrow, then like i said above, that can be done in the blockchain determinisically without a 3rd party at all
2563 2011-06-10 18:56:58 <arienh4> spq: I'm not looking for escrow.
2564 2011-06-10 18:57:11 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2567 2011-06-10 18:57:44 <arienh4> I'm talking about paying your groceries with bitcoins for example.
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2573 2011-06-10 18:59:42 <arienh4> So I suppose it would be as easy as setting a transaction that requires both your key and the 3rd party's, sending your coins to the merchant, and sending that to the 3rd party.
2574 2011-06-10 18:59:42 ChuckSchumer has joined
2575 2011-06-10 19:00:49 <shLONG> awesome im connected to deepbit gpu mining
2576 2011-06-10 19:01:05 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs spq: Does that sound right?
2577 2011-06-10 19:01:29 lumos has joined
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2579 2011-06-10 19:03:53 jed2 has joined
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2581 2011-06-10 19:04:30 <molecular> MagicalTux, is the websocket api down?
2582 2011-06-10 19:04:43 scott` has joined
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2584 2011-06-10 19:06:07 stuhood has joined
2585 2011-06-10 19:06:08 <arienh4> a
2586 2011-06-10 19:06:11 <arienh4> Anyone? :(
2587 2011-06-10 19:06:23 <spq> oh
2588 2011-06-10 19:06:28 stuhood has left ()
2589 2011-06-10 19:06:33 <spq> molecular: http://mtgoxlive.com/orders - this one works
2590 2011-06-10 19:06:43 brunner has joined
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2592 2011-06-10 19:07:08 <spq> arienh4: what exactly did you want to reach with that? looks like i didnt understand that bit - sry
2593 2011-06-10 19:07:15 LobsterMan has joined
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2595 2011-06-10 19:07:15 LobsterMan has joined
2596 2011-06-10 19:07:50 <molecular> spq, good point.
2597 2011-06-10 19:08:54 <spq> you want to send a transaction which is later either executed or reverted?
2598 2011-06-10 19:09:05 quellhorst has joined
2599 2011-06-10 19:09:15 <arienh4> spq: I want an instantaneous transaction with no possibility of double-spending.
2600 2011-06-10 19:09:56 <spq> isnt that a normal transaction? :)
2601 2011-06-10 19:09:59 <arienh4> To accomplish this, I introduced a third-party that the payee trusts to only sign every transaction ONCE.
2602 2011-06-10 19:10:06 anddam has quit (Quit: anddam)
2603 2011-06-10 19:10:11 <arienh4> spq: No, because it would be possible to double-spend using a normal transaction.
2604 2011-06-10 19:10:26 <spq> hm?
2605 2011-06-10 19:10:38 <spq> i thought double spending is checked in btc
2606 2011-06-10 19:10:49 <arienh4> spq: That's what the 6 confirmations is for.
2607 2011-06-10 19:10:53 <spq> yea
2608 2011-06-10 19:11:02 <arienh4> <arienh4> spq: I want an instantaneous transaction with no possibility of double-spending.
2609 2011-06-10 19:11:14 <spq> ah
2610 2011-06-10 19:11:21 <arienh4> 6 confirmations are not instantaneous
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2612 2011-06-10 19:11:37 <jrmithdobbs> i'm disappointed
2613 2011-06-10 19:11:43 <jrmithdobbs> these ghost chiles are not as hot as expected
2614 2011-06-10 19:11:53 Moonies has joined
2615 2011-06-10 19:12:18 <spq> hmm
2616 2011-06-10 19:13:12 <arienh4> This is the problem.
2617 2011-06-10 19:13:20 <arienh4> Suppose the attacker is generating blocks occasionally. in each block he generates, he includes a transfer from address A to address B, both of which he controls.
2618 2011-06-10 19:13:23 <arienh4> To cheat you, when he generates a block, he doesn't broadcast it. Instead, he runs down to your store and makes a payment to your address C with his address A. You wait a few seconds, don't hear anything, and transfer the goods. He broadcasts his block now, and his transaction will take precedence over yours.
2619 2011-06-10 19:13:52 ajf is now known as offline!~ajf@78.129.159.151|ajd
2620 2011-06-10 19:13:57 ajd is now known as ajf
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2623 2011-06-10 19:15:46 <phantomcircuit> arienh4, yes that's possible if the store accepts 0 confirmation transactions
2624 2011-06-10 19:15:52 subimage has joined
2625 2011-06-10 19:16:13 <arienh4> phantomcircuit: And I want a system where it's possible to accept 0 confirmation transactions without the risk of double-spending.
2626 2011-06-10 19:16:13 <spq> could work, anyway need to go
2627 2011-06-10 19:16:21 <arienh4> By having a third party that the store trusts.
2628 2011-06-10 19:16:41 <arienh4> <arienh4> So I suppose it would be as easy as setting a transaction that requires both your key and the 3rd party's, sending your coins to the merchant, and sending that to the 3rd party.
2629 2011-06-10 19:17:22 agent-x has joined
2630 2011-06-10 19:17:24 <arienh4> That way, only the payee needs to trust the third party.
2631 2011-06-10 19:18:02 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: yes, you sign, send to 3rd party instead of p2p, then 3rd party signs the whole thing and sends to p2p
2632 2011-06-10 19:18:28 scott- has joined
2633 2011-06-10 19:18:30 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Except you need to have the coins locked in at 6 confirmations to prevent you from double-spending.
2634 2011-06-10 19:18:42 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: no
2635 2011-06-10 19:18:45 <arienh4> Which is why I suggested you prepay the coins to a transaction with open outputs
2636 2011-06-10 19:18:48 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Yes, it does.
2637 2011-06-10 19:18:49 subimage has left ()
2638 2011-06-10 19:18:55 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: no
2639 2011-06-10 19:19:04 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: 3rd party is basically acting as an insurance provider
2640 2011-06-10 19:19:11 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: No.
2641 2011-06-10 19:19:17 <arienh4> You're not getting me.
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2647 2011-06-10 19:19:33 <arienh4> The third party's ONLY job is to make sure the transaction is signed only once.
2648 2011-06-10 19:19:39 <arienh4> And that it can not be sent multiple times.
2649 2011-06-10 19:19:41 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: they make their money in fees. part of the reason they agree to do this for a fee is that because of economies of scale the occurance of double-spend attempts are going to be fractional compared to honest users
2650 2011-06-10 19:19:59 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: It's not insurance, per sé.
2651 2011-06-10 19:20:00 <jrmithdobbs> therefore you can get real instant txns
2652 2011-06-10 19:20:10 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: it's payment processing, whatever you want to calli t
2653 2011-06-10 19:20:24 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: No, because the third-party does not touch the money.
2654 2011-06-10 19:20:26 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: there are companies that do things like this right now with non-btc
2655 2011-06-10 19:20:31 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Nope.
2656 2011-06-10 19:20:53 <arienh4> In non-BTC, it requires the third-party to hold the money.
2657 2011-06-10 19:21:02 <jrmithdobbs> yes
2658 2011-06-10 19:21:11 <arienh4> In BTC, I don't want to give a third-party my money.
2659 2011-06-10 19:21:13 <jrmithdobbs> i didn't say otherwise
2660 2011-06-10 19:21:17 <arienh4> I don't want to have to trust the third-party.
2661 2011-06-10 19:21:24 <jrmithdobbs> and actually not always, considering visa et all basically do this
2662 2011-06-10 19:21:25 <arienh4> As a payer.
2663 2011-06-10 19:21:32 <jrmithdobbs> with credit instead of existing funds
2664 2011-06-10 19:21:47 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Incomparable. Visa can sue me if I don't pay my bills.
2665 2011-06-10 19:21:58 <jrmithdobbs> so can this 3rd party if you try and double spend
2666 2011-06-10 19:22:07 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: No.
2667 2011-06-10 19:22:09 <arienh4> That's not the point.
2668 2011-06-10 19:22:10 <jrmithdobbs> that's the whole reason to have a 3rd party doing the verifying
2669 2011-06-10 19:22:13 <arienh4> No.
2670 2011-06-10 19:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> so the risk is transfered to the third party instead of the merchant
2671 2011-06-10 19:22:25 <arienh4> I don't want it to be legally impossible to double-spend.
2672 2011-06-10 19:22:33 <arienh4> I want it to be TECHNICALLY impossible to double-spend.
2673 2011-06-10 19:23:09 <jrmithdobbs> so step by step what is the process you're proposing?
2674 2011-06-10 19:23:27 <jrmithdobbs> consumer pays who? 3rd party does what with payment? merchant does what?
2675 2011-06-10 19:23:31 <arienh4> You make a transaction with an input but no outputs
2676 2011-06-10 19:23:32 <jrmithdobbs> etc
2677 2011-06-10 19:23:42 <arienh4> with the budget of the maximum you want to spend
2678 2011-06-10 19:23:45 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2679 2011-06-10 19:24:01 <arienh4> You set it thusly that to spend it, it needs both your signature and the 3rd party's
2680 2011-06-10 19:24:15 <arienh4> and if it is not spent after a week or a month or whatever, it's refunded to you
2681 2011-06-10 19:24:16 <jrmithdobbs> how is the 3rd party NOT holding the money in this case then?
2682 2011-06-10 19:24:18 <jrmithdobbs> because they are
2683 2011-06-10 19:24:21 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: let. me. finish.
2684 2011-06-10 19:24:56 <arienh4> so, right now, you have coins that cannot be spent by anyone unless both you and the 3rd party sign a second transaction or you wait a month for the coins to be refunded to you, correct?
2685 2011-06-10 19:25:07 <jrmithdobbs> basically you want a trust fund that can be arbitrarily spent with the 3rd party as authorizor
2686 2011-06-10 19:25:12 <arienh4> Yes.
2687 2011-06-10 19:25:15 <jrmithdobbs> gotcha
2688 2011-06-10 19:25:18 <jrmithdobbs> ya that works.
2689 2011-06-10 19:25:35 <jrmithdobbs> not a bad idea
2690 2011-06-10 19:25:44 <arienh4> So now, if you want to spend the coins, you make a transaction to the store that sends them the payment, and you the change
2691 2011-06-10 19:25:49 <arienh4> you send it to the 3rd party to be signed
2692 2011-06-10 19:25:56 <arienh4> the 3rd party gives the store the green light
2693 2011-06-10 19:26:18 <jrmithdobbs> there's one problem though
2694 2011-06-10 19:26:20 <arienh4> And if the 3rd party refuses to sign any transactions for you, it's eventually refunded
2695 2011-06-10 19:26:28 <jrmithdobbs> that keeps you from reaching your goal
2696 2011-06-10 19:26:32 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: ?
2697 2011-06-10 19:26:45 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2698 2011-06-10 19:26:53 <jrmithdobbs> if a block reorg happens between time of you+3rd party signing merchant gets fucked and you have the goods
2699 2011-06-10 19:26:55 Zarutian has joined
2700 2011-06-10 19:26:56 <jrmithdobbs> effectively double spending
2701 2011-06-10 19:27:06 Moonies has joined
2702 2011-06-10 19:27:14 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: The third party can then resend the transaction to a new block
2703 2011-06-10 19:27:29 <jrmithdobbs> except that the 3rd party will now need your signature again
2704 2011-06-10 19:27:32 <jrmithdobbs> which you can withhold
2705 2011-06-10 19:27:34 <arienh4> no
2706 2011-06-10 19:27:37 <jrmithdobbs> and just get refunded
2707 2011-06-10 19:27:37 <arienh4> it's already been signed
2708 2011-06-10 19:27:47 <jrmithdobbs> ok, i get you
2709 2011-06-10 19:27:59 <jrmithdobbs> so the 3rd party is still used as an intemediary between the p2p network
2710 2011-06-10 19:28:11 <arienh4> The merchant gets the green light when it receives the transaction signed from you
2711 2011-06-10 19:28:21 <jrmithdobbs> gotcha
2712 2011-06-10 19:28:30 <jrmithdobbs> makes perfect sense
2713 2011-06-10 19:28:41 <arienh4> It requires the store to trust the 3rd party, but the customer doesn't have to
2714 2011-06-10 19:28:46 <jrmithdobbs> now go convince people to use btc as currency so you can make your million ;P
2715 2011-06-10 19:28:50 <arienh4> Heh.
2716 2011-06-10 19:28:54 <jrmithdobbs> (instead of commodity)
2717 2011-06-10 19:29:18 <arienh4> The only thing is, you need to know that you're going to spend less than X BTC at a store working together with Y.
2718 2011-06-10 19:29:29 <arienh4> An hour in advance
2719 2011-06-10 19:29:40 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: you need a way to arbitrarily request refund without 3rd party's sig
2720 2011-06-10 19:29:47 <jrmithdobbs> so that you could use it like a checking account
2721 2011-06-10 19:29:49 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: That's what locktime is for.
2722 2011-06-10 19:29:50 <jrmithdobbs> that introduces other problems
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2724 2011-06-10 19:30:19 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: No, you can get a refund together with the transaction
2725 2011-06-10 19:30:27 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: right but say you but 30btc into this trust txn but only spend 10 of it and want to spend the rest?
2726 2011-06-10 19:30:38 <arienh4> You receive the 20 back when you spend the 10
2727 2011-06-10 19:30:40 <arienh4> in the same transaction
2728 2011-06-10 19:30:43 <arienh4> just like you are now
2729 2011-06-10 19:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> ohh
2730 2011-06-10 19:30:49 <arienh4> With 2 outputs
2731 2011-06-10 19:31:19 <jrmithdobbs> so the trust txn needs inputs + refund address (since it shouldn't be the same as signing) + consumer sig + 3rd party sig
2732 2011-06-10 19:31:45 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Well, basically, but that refund happens when the locktime is reached.
2733 2011-06-10 19:31:53 <arienh4> Which shouldn't happen unless the 3rd party is untrustworthy
2734 2011-06-10 19:32:09 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: right but refund and change BOTH need a destination
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2736 2011-06-10 19:32:18 <jrmithdobbs> and said destination shouldn't be the originating key
2737 2011-06-10 19:32:30 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Yes, but you decide that the moment you pay the store
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2739 2011-06-10 19:32:52 <jrmithdobbs> i think it'd be better to have the refund/change destination decided at creation of the trust
2740 2011-06-10 19:32:59 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: You can't.
2741 2011-06-10 19:33:05 <jrmithdobbs> why not?
2742 2011-06-10 19:33:17 <arienh4> Because you need to know how much money is going to be sent
2743 2011-06-10 19:33:20 <arienh4> and you don't know that beforehadn
2744 2011-06-10 19:33:23 <arienh4> *hand
2745 2011-06-10 19:33:35 <jrmithdobbs> well right you have to sign the change txn still
2746 2011-06-10 19:33:36 <arienh4> brb
2747 2011-06-10 19:33:48 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: It's the same txn as the store txn
2748 2011-06-10 19:33:48 <jrmithdobbs> but I think the change/refund address should be locked by putting said address in the original trust txn
2749 2011-06-10 19:33:49 <arienh4> brb
2750 2011-06-10 19:33:58 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: There's no advantage to that.
2751 2011-06-10 19:34:05 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: prevents money laundering
2752 2011-06-10 19:34:13 <arienh4> Huh?
2753 2011-06-10 19:34:24 sanity has joined
2754 2011-06-10 19:34:27 <arienh4> The second transaction is just a normal transaction, with the only difference being the extra needed signature.
2755 2011-06-10 19:34:37 <jrmithdobbs> if the output for change/refund is determined at time of trust txn then it can go nowhere but where you said it could originally
2756 2011-06-10 19:34:49 <arienh4> You'll still need to sign the change txn
2757 2011-06-10 19:34:53 <jrmithdobbs> yes
2758 2011-06-10 19:35:01 <jrmithdobbs> but it doesn't have to be an IsStandard() txn
2759 2011-06-10 19:36:01 topace has joined
2760 2011-06-10 19:36:04 <whackedspinach> So if I am selling someone to something automatically (a.k.a a webstore), is there a good way to prevent that MITM attack from happening? I won't know who sent the money, only that someone paid for my products at the temp address I gave them.
2761 2011-06-10 19:36:06 <jrmithdobbs> i'm not wording my reasoning very well, let me think about it a bit and see if I can express what I'm trying to better
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2763 2011-06-10 19:36:47 <arienh4> whackedspinach: You know no-one else knows the temp address, don't you?
2764 2011-06-10 19:37:33 <whackedspinach> arienh4: Right, but the dispute occurs when the buyer passes that off as a different address and gets someone else to unknowingly pay for his purchase
2765 2011-06-10 19:37:33 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2766 2011-06-10 19:37:51 <jrmithdobbs> whackedspinach: nothing you can do
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2768 2011-06-10 19:37:59 <jrmithdobbs> whackedspinach: and it's not your responsibility to
2769 2011-06-10 19:38:09 <jrmithdobbs> to put it bluntly
2770 2011-06-10 19:38:32 <jrmithdobbs> so long as you receive the txn what do you care?
2771 2011-06-10 19:38:33 <whackedspinach> jrmithdobbs: Okay, I figured there wasn't really a good way to prevent that.
2772 2011-06-10 19:38:59 <jrmithdobbs> let the police/etc deal with enforcing fraud laws, not your problem ;P
2773 2011-06-10 19:39:38 <jrmithdobbs> just be willing to cooperate if it ever comes up and I don't even see a moral issue (hell, personally, i'd require a subpoena still)
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2794 2011-06-10 19:47:04 <ariqs> how many bitcoins does Satoshi Nakamoto have anyway?
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2798 2011-06-10 19:49:12 <eamon> What do we think about setting up a .onoin SILC server for anonymous bitcoin trading? It would be similar to #bitcoin-otc except secure and anonymous.
2799 2011-06-10 19:49:30 <lianj> ariqs: somewhere heard the first 32.000 blocks
2800 2011-06-10 19:50:29 <ariqs> 32.000 blocks is how many coins?
2801 2011-06-10 19:50:36 <lianj> *50
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2810 2011-06-10 19:59:38 <jaybny> any word on mtgox websockets issues?
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2817 2011-06-10 20:03:18 <spitteler> evytime i switch between windows and mac, it seems to corrupt the blkindex.dat and blk0001.dat files giving me error DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
2818 2011-06-10 20:03:35 <Optimo> you need only the wallet.dat
2819 2011-06-10 20:03:47 <spitteler> Optimo it is using 1 wallet.dat
2820 2011-06-10 20:03:48 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2821 2011-06-10 20:03:59 <Optimo> but why are you migrating the other filer?
2822 2011-06-10 20:04:00 <Optimo> files
2823 2011-06-10 20:04:28 <Optimo> anyway, blkindex.dat can be rebuilt..dunno about the 0001 file
2824 2011-06-10 20:04:41 <phantomcircuit> that contains the entire block chain
2825 2011-06-10 20:04:58 <spitteler> i have a thumb drive with 3 folders... Windows, Mac, DATA and a .bat and applescript to open either the Windows or Mac version on the usb stick with the common wallet in DATA
2826 2011-06-10 20:05:07 <Optimo> spitteler, so try deleting the index?
2827 2011-06-10 20:05:34 <spitteler> yes, deleting works to load again.. but i dont want to have to do that everytime
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2829 2011-06-10 20:06:04 <Optimo> did you make sure bitcoin is closed and flushed-out before making those files..
2830 2011-06-10 20:06:05 <Optimo> weird
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2832 2011-06-10 20:06:20 <jrmithdobbs> yay using a paltform dependant storage method
2833 2011-06-10 20:06:26 <jrmithdobbs> s/paltform/platform/
2834 2011-06-10 20:06:26 <Optimo> maybe there's throughput issue with your stick?
2835 2011-06-10 20:06:43 <Optimo> if it's mostly full they can act funny
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2838 2011-06-10 20:07:00 <spitteler> stick is 8gig with only like 140mb on it
2839 2011-06-10 20:07:14 <spitteler> could filesystem be an issue... i think it is ntfs
2840 2011-06-10 20:07:28 <Optimo> that is a good guess
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2844 2011-06-10 20:11:11 <jrmithdobbs> spitteler: shouldn't be so long as you quit bitcoin and actually use the device eject button in windows and mac
2845 2011-06-10 20:11:35 <jrmithdobbs> s/mac/osx/
2846 2011-06-10 20:11:43 dubious has joined
2847 2011-06-10 20:13:58 <Optimo> windows uses delayed writes iirc
2848 2011-06-10 20:14:22 <Optimo> and maybe mac too, so ejecting after a good client shutdown is important
2849 2011-06-10 20:16:36 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2850 2011-06-10 20:19:53 <upb> -n
2851 2011-06-10 20:20:00 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2852 2011-06-10 20:20:14 <upb> is the maintainer of mtgoxlive her e?:P
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2859 2011-06-10 20:26:26 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
2860 2011-06-10 20:26:26 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":29.399,"low":23.2,"vol":60291,"buy":23.61,"sell":23.71,"last":23.611}}
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2872 2011-06-10 20:39:21 <arienh4> ;;ticker
2873 2011-06-10 20:39:22 <gribble> Best bid: 22.8897, Best ask: 22.98, Bid-ask spread: 0.0903, Last trade: 22.98, 24 hour volume: 61582, 24 hour low: 22.98, 24 hour high: 29.399
2874 2011-06-10 20:40:42 <roconnor> the channel log link in the topic doesn't work for me
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2896 2011-06-10 20:52:34 <Neskia> anyone got a suggestion for the best miner to use on gentoo?
2897 2011-06-10 20:53:09 ChuckSchumer has joined
2898 2011-06-10 20:53:15 <arienh4> Neskia: Check #bitcoin-mining
2899 2011-06-10 20:53:44 <Neskia> mm right right
2900 2011-06-10 20:54:36 <luke-jr> there's also #bitcoin-gentoo
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2903 2011-06-10 21:00:11 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
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2905 2011-06-10 21:01:23 <diki> the forum is loading slow
2906 2011-06-10 21:01:29 <diki> i demand it's fixed!!!!!
2907 2011-06-10 21:02:07 p0s has quit (Quit: reconnect)
2908 2011-06-10 21:02:13 <x5x> blah, mtgox websocket is down
2909 2011-06-10 21:02:51 <arienh4> ;;ticker
2910 2011-06-10 21:02:51 <gribble> Best bid: 23.8, Best ask: 25.5, Bid-ask spread: 1.7, Last trade: 24, 24 hour volume: 81140, 24 hour low: 20.01, 24 hour high: 29.399
2911 2011-06-10 21:02:57 <diki> then make a localsocket connection
2912 2011-06-10 21:03:04 <x5x> ?
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2914 2011-06-10 21:03:32 <x5x> diki, are u forreal
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2927 2011-06-10 21:05:25 <jgarzik> io_error: to what bitcoin bugs do you refer, in twitter?
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2936 2011-06-10 21:08:53 <arienh4> Hmm, on the forum, would discussion of contracts to fix double-spending go in BC discussion or technical discussion?
2937 2011-06-10 21:09:48 <jgarzik> arienh4: "fix" double spending? Do you have a proof that double-spending has actually occurred ?
2938 2011-06-10 21:10:02 <arienh4> jgarzik: I have proof that it can.
2939 2011-06-10 21:10:10 <arienh4> It's common knowledge that it can.
2940 2011-06-10 21:10:17 <jgarzik> arienh4: inside the block chain?
2941 2011-06-10 21:10:25 kermit has joined
2942 2011-06-10 21:10:28 <arienh4> jgarzik: Well, on a parallel block chain obviously.
2943 2011-06-10 21:10:35 <jgarzik> :)
2944 2011-06-10 21:10:43 <arienh4> [2008] <arienh4> Suppose the attacker is generating blocks occasionally. in each block he generates, he includes a transfer from address A to address B, both of which he controls.
2945 2011-06-10 21:10:48 <arienh4> [2008] <arienh4> To cheat you, when he generates a block, he doesn't broadcast it. Instead, he runs down to your store and makes a payment to your address C with his address A. You wait a few seconds, don't hear anything, and transfer the goods. He broadcasts his block now, and his transaction will take precedence over yours.
2946 2011-06-10 21:10:51 zamgo has left ()
2947 2011-06-10 21:10:56 hisdudeness has joined
2948 2011-06-10 21:11:06 <arienh4> I've discussed a solution to this in the channel.
2949 2011-06-10 21:11:32 Rudycoin has joined
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2952 2011-06-10 21:12:22 <arienh4> http://pastebin.com/xaE84Buy
2953 2011-06-10 21:12:24 Breign has joined
2954 2011-06-10 21:12:24 <jgarzik> arienh4: so this "problem" depends on people accepting zero-confirmation TX's, then
2955 2011-06-10 21:12:30 <jgarzik> that's well known
2956 2011-06-10 21:12:38 <arienh4> jgarzik: Yes. I want it to be possible to accept zero-confirmation TXs.
2957 2011-06-10 21:12:51 <arienh4> It's unfeasible to expect a customer to wait around in a store for an hour to confirm the payment.
2958 2011-06-10 21:13:07 <jgarzik> arienh4: post in snack machine thread
2959 2011-06-10 21:13:12 <arienh4> ?
2960 2011-06-10 21:13:31 <jgarzik> that is where discussion of accepting zero-conf TX's is ongoing
2961 2011-06-10 21:13:40 <arienh4> Do you have a link?
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2966 2011-06-10 21:14:40 <ZOP> Windows doesn't use delayed writes on removeable media
2967 2011-06-10 21:14:42 <ZOP> neither does OSX
2968 2011-06-10 21:14:46 <ZOP> atleast not by default
2969 2011-06-10 21:14:57 <ZOP> oh wait that was forever ago...damnit.
2970 2011-06-10 21:15:37 <citiz3n> jgarzik, i liked your interview
2971 2011-06-10 21:15:40 <citiz3n> you did very well
2972 2011-06-10 21:16:33 mpr has joined
2973 2011-06-10 21:16:33 <jgarzik> arienh4: JFGI
2974 2011-06-10 21:16:39 <jgarzik> citiz3n: tnx
2975 2011-06-10 21:16:45 <arienh4> jgarzik: Yeah, I did. Bitcoin Forums were being really slow though.
2976 2011-06-10 21:16:55 <arienh4> It's taken me 10 minutes just to get to it.
2977 2011-06-10 21:17:00 <citiz3n> im sure someone will open a bitcoin bank
2978 2011-06-10 21:17:12 <citiz3n> to verify that funds are there and real for instant transactions
2979 2011-06-10 21:17:39 B0g4r7 has joined
2980 2011-06-10 21:17:55 <jgarzik> yep
2981 2011-06-10 21:18:29 <jgarzik> long term, satoshi and others have predicted that big bitcoin players will form a secure TX confirmation network between themselves
2982 2011-06-10 21:18:46 <jgarzik> and then transfers between each other would use higher numbers of confirmations, during settlement
2983 2011-06-10 21:18:59 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: hows that work?
2984 2011-06-10 21:19:22 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: trust
2985 2011-06-10 21:19:23 <citiz3n> you'd be like a payment processor/bank
2986 2011-06-10 21:19:42 <Diablo-D3> no I meant
2987 2011-06-10 21:19:46 <Diablo-D3> what does that actually do?
2988 2011-06-10 21:20:58 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2989 2011-06-10 21:20:59 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: takes risk off of merchants
2990 2011-06-10 21:21:05 <jrmithdobbs> and puts it onto the processors
2991 2011-06-10 21:21:17 <Diablo-D3> how?
2992 2011-06-10 21:21:22 <jrmithdobbs> while enabling instant transactions
2993 2011-06-10 21:21:24 Moonies has joined
2994 2011-06-10 21:21:33 <Diablo-D3> ahhh
2995 2011-06-10 21:21:36 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: the processors assume the risk
2996 2011-06-10 21:21:36 <citiz3n> the processors/bank agree to cover a transaction
2997 2011-06-10 21:21:36 <Diablo-D3> could be interesting
2998 2011-06-10 21:21:49 <Diablo-D3> that'd lead to bitcoin banks though
2999 2011-06-10 21:21:54 <Diablo-D3> which isnt THAT bad of an idea
3000 2011-06-10 21:22:09 <citiz3n> it would be a good service for in-person transactions
3001 2011-06-10 21:22:12 <hisdudeness> <jgarzik> do you have a link to what you just mentioned satoshi said?
3002 2011-06-10 21:22:16 <arienh4> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=423.msg197982#msg197982
3003 2011-06-10 21:22:21 <citiz3n> have like a bitcoin debit card
3004 2011-06-10 21:22:26 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3005 2011-06-10 21:22:56 <arienh4> No banking required.
3006 2011-06-10 21:23:42 <jgarzik> Bitcoin banks and payment processors will appear once the economy is larger. (though, mtgox and mybitcoin already count as independent, not-inter-linked payment processors)
3007 2011-06-10 21:23:59 <jgarzik> secure depository is a useful feature, as most people won't secure their wallet as well as a professional op will
3008 2011-06-10 21:24:23 <xelister> jgarzik: right, what it is with you saying of legallizing bitcoin exchanges
3009 2011-06-10 21:24:29 <arienh4> This idea can also be used to make sure nobody steals your wallet.dat and spends your money.
3010 2011-06-10 21:24:36 <xelister> and by legalizing we mean surrending and obeying the government overlords
3011 2011-06-10 21:24:37 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i've got a hard qr code backup that i'm going to put in a saftey deposit box ;P
3012 2011-06-10 21:24:45 <jrmithdobbs> (totally serious)
3013 2011-06-10 21:24:47 <jgarzik> arienh4: yes, your idea has merit
3014 2011-06-10 21:25:01 <arienh4> jgarzik: It requires the official client to relay non-standard transactions though.
3015 2011-06-10 21:25:02 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: ironically, a print-out is far more time-proof than any digital media, at present
3016 2011-06-10 21:25:17 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: yup.
3017 2011-06-10 21:25:20 <jgarzik> arienh4: if it becomes a popular type of transaction, we can make it standard
3018 2011-06-10 21:25:39 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: one qr code backup for ease of reentry and another one in ascii in an easily ocr-able font
3019 2011-06-10 21:26:25 <arienh4> jgarzik: I dunno, I feel as if I've missed something.
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3022 2011-06-10 21:27:58 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i'm waiting for dump/import wallet/privkey to get merged and then going to see if anyone has interest in my backup solutions :)
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3026 2011-06-10 21:28:56 <arienh4> jgarzik: Of course, it would need a different kind of client to work anyway.
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3028 2011-06-10 21:29:32 <arienh4> jgarzik: Unless you're going to pull out a laptop in front of a register.
3029 2011-06-10 21:29:42 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: phone
3030 2011-06-10 21:30:06 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: if you can make it work off smartcards, actually, you could get pretty wide acceptance pretty fast
3031 2011-06-10 21:30:06 <jgarzik> arienh4: ...such as TD's bitcoinj
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3033 2011-06-10 21:30:33 <jgarzik> arienh4: TD is working on SPV mode ("simplified payment verification"), that does not require full block chain. intended use is for mobile phone payments and other lightweight BTC uses.
3034 2011-06-10 21:30:39 <jrmithdobbs> and with your particular solution i could see a smartcard being enough tbqh
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3036 2011-06-10 21:30:58 <arienh4> jgarzik: Yeah, I know. So this would make more sense to be built into bitcoinj than the desktp client.
3037 2011-06-10 21:31:44 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: you should be able to store the "trust" txn id on the card along with metadata and the privkey necessary to sign and just be able to input passphrase into a terminal
3038 2011-06-10 21:31:59 <arienh4> Yeah, or NFC.
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3040 2011-06-10 21:32:12 <jrmithdobbs> tho i don't know if there are any SC implementations that'll play nice with ECC
3041 2011-06-10 21:32:15 Incitatus has joined
3042 2011-06-10 21:32:21 <jrmithdobbs> that might be the only hurdle
3043 2011-06-10 21:32:27 <arienh4> NFC might be easier.
3044 2011-06-10 21:32:31 <arienh4> Everyone has a phone.
3045 2011-06-10 21:32:48 <jrmithdobbs> ya i'm not comfortable storing privkeys on a mobile tho
3046 2011-06-10 21:33:02 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: And you would be on a smartcard?
3047 2011-06-10 21:33:12 <jrmithdobbs> more so than a phone, yes
3048 2011-06-10 21:33:24 <arienh4> With the smartcard, you're leaving it up to the store to be honest.
3049 2011-06-10 21:33:25 <jrmithdobbs> you can make the keys unexportable off the card
3050 2011-06-10 21:33:39 <arienh4> With the phone, you can make sure only the right amount is sent.
3051 2011-06-10 21:33:41 <Optimo> could the client be made to accept the base160 address (without checksum) ?
3052 2011-06-10 21:33:49 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: true
3053 2011-06-10 21:34:05 m0m0 has left ()
3054 2011-06-10 21:34:13 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Besides, you set a budget, remember? So losing the privkey, should it even happen, shouldn't be a big problem.
3055 2011-06-10 21:34:39 IncitatusOnWater has joined
3056 2011-06-10 21:34:41 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: ya but what if there's a bug in the NFC stack that lets people grab it?
3057 2011-06-10 21:34:50 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: How would that happen?
3058 2011-06-10 21:34:50 <jrmithdobbs> mobile phone software does not exactly have the best security track record.
3059 2011-06-10 21:35:05 <Chopes> Hrm, is there a solution for "problems communicating with bitcoin"? Seems related to multiple boxes mining on the same network
3060 2011-06-10 21:35:18 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Besides, if you want smartcards you're going to have to manufacture them.
3061 2011-06-10 21:35:22 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: depends on which nfc method you're talking i guess, but i think you catch my meaning
3062 2011-06-10 21:35:39 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: All that would be sent over NFC would be the store's address and the amount
3063 2011-06-10 21:35:43 <arienh4> You verify that info on your phone
3064 2011-06-10 21:35:48 <arienh4> Prepare the transaction
3065 2011-06-10 21:36:03 <arienh4> Once it's signed, you purge the encryption key from memory
3066 2011-06-10 21:36:09 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: and if there's a buffer overflow in the nfc stack that allows code execution?
3067 2011-06-10 21:36:13 <arienh4> then you send the transaction to the store
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3069 2011-06-10 21:36:24 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: The privkey is encrypted while you're doing the NFC
3070 2011-06-10 21:36:33 <jrmithdobbs> this isn't a "what if" this is a common problem in mobile software ;P
3071 2011-06-10 21:36:37 Moonies has joined
3072 2011-06-10 21:36:59 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: You don't hold your phone near the terminal if the privkey is decrypted.
3073 2011-06-10 21:37:00 <Optimo> spv == bitcoinj ?
3074 2011-06-10 21:37:05 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
3075 2011-06-10 21:37:27 <TD> hello
3076 2011-06-10 21:37:33 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: we need phones with proper developer-exposed tpm hardware that's used to do useful things instead of lock bootloaders, heh
3077 2011-06-10 21:37:43 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Well, yeah, but they can still do AES.
3078 2011-06-10 21:37:48 <arienh4> Albeit slowly.
3079 2011-06-10 21:38:16 <arienh4> Just so long as you make sure theres no contact between the terminal and the phone while the phone knows the encryption key...
3080 2011-06-10 21:38:30 <arienh4> Basically, the privkey would be encrypted on the phone using a PIN
3081 2011-06-10 21:39:01 <jrmithdobbs> so long as it's a limited balance pin is fine by me
3082 2011-06-10 21:39:04 <arienh4> Prior to the transaction, the phone receives the amount due and the address. At this point, if the attacker gets access to the phone, he only gets an encrypted wallet.
3083 2011-06-10 21:39:29 <arienh4> Then, you sever the connection, the phone shows the amount and the address and asks you for your PIN.
3084 2011-06-10 21:39:51 <arienh4> The phone then decrypts the privkey, signs the transaction and purges the encryption key from memory.
3085 2011-06-10 21:40:14 <arienh4> Then the NFC connection is made again, and the signed transaction is sent through the store to the third party.
3086 2011-06-10 21:40:24 <arienh4> Just like PIN transactions nowadays.
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3088 2011-06-10 21:40:26 <jgarzik> Optimo: SPV == Simplified Payment Verification mode, i.e. I-dont-need-full-blockchain mode.
3089 2011-06-10 21:40:39 <jgarzik> Optimo: TD's bitcoinj is the first, and most-nearly-complete SPV client
3090 2011-06-10 21:41:23 <TD> arienh4: mobile security is tricky. it's something i'm researching at the moment
3091 2011-06-10 21:41:35 <TD> the nexus s contains a SecureMX chip used for the Google Wallet app
3092 2011-06-10 21:42:10 <TD> AFAIK it's the only NFC payment application out there right now. Google is beating a path through the jungle on this one.
3093 2011-06-10 21:42:29 ariqs has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3094 2011-06-10 21:42:37 <TD> for BitCoin it's harder because you need to support true peer-to-peer payments. relying on strongly identified, contract-signing merchants doesn't fly
3095 2011-06-10 21:42:42 <arienh4> TD: Is GW open-source?
3096 2011-06-10 21:43:03 <TD> and addresses are opaque. you never know if the address you see on screen really belongs to the merchant or whether it belongs to an attacker
3097 2011-06-10 21:43:10 <jrmithdobbs> TD: none of the tpm chips are exposed to random developers as far as i can
3098 2011-06-10 21:43:15 <TD> no, it isn't. it's the opposite of open source, it relies heavily on undocumented APIs and the lik
3099 2011-06-10 21:43:16 <arienh4> TD: That's up to the store to decide.
3100 2011-06-10 21:43:17 <jrmithdobbs> TD: in the few platforms that have them
3101 2011-06-10 21:43:20 <jrmithdobbs> TD: fucking annoying.
3102 2011-06-10 21:43:21 ChuckSchumer has joined
3103 2011-06-10 21:43:39 <TD> i know. TPM deployments never really happened unfortunately
3104 2011-06-10 21:43:39 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3105 2011-06-10 21:43:50 <TD> on a PC a TPM isn't enough. you need something like TXT/LaGrande
3106 2011-06-10 21:43:51 <jrmithdobbs> most phones have tpm chips
3107 2011-06-10 21:43:54 <jrmithdobbs> you just can't use them
3108 2011-06-10 21:43:56 <jrmithdobbs> it's retarded
3109 2011-06-10 21:43:56 <TD> which intel never really pushed hard
3110 2011-06-10 21:44:05 <TD> phones have secure bootloaders, it's not the same as a real TPM
3111 2011-06-10 21:44:16 <TD> they don't have many of the same features. i don't know of any phones that come with mobile TPMs
3112 2011-06-10 21:44:22 <jrmithdobbs> depends on the implementation, some them have real chips that back those mechanisms
3113 2011-06-10 21:44:26 <TD> ChromeBooks do, but there's no html5 api for that :-)
3114 2011-06-10 21:44:27 <iz> that tpm is for them, not you
3115 2011-06-10 21:44:28 <iz> lol
3116 2011-06-10 21:44:35 <jrmithdobbs> TD: iirc the new droid line has them
3117 2011-06-10 21:44:36 <TD> a TPM is a very specific type of chip
3118 2011-06-10 21:44:39 danbri_ has joined
3119 2011-06-10 21:44:40 <TD> not just any chip used for a secure boot
3120 2011-06-10 21:44:55 <TD> there are standards for how to build them, their APIs, etc
3121 2011-06-10 21:45:05 <jrmithdobbs> ok well tpm-like chips
3122 2011-06-10 21:45:07 <TD> right
3123 2011-06-10 21:45:34 <TD> TPM isn't enough by itself. it's only the foundation.
3124 2011-06-10 21:45:41 <jrmithdobbs> i want pgp implemented in hardware on my phone damn it
3125 2011-06-10 21:45:56 <jrmithdobbs> i do not think this is an unreasonable request.
3126 2011-06-10 21:45:58 <TD> a secure boot is a great start because it makes it harder to root the phone. there's no point having a crypto chip by itself on a rooted phone because the attacker controls the inputs and outputs from the chip
3127 2011-06-10 21:46:01 <arienh4> Well, you don't need to use NFC. You can use 3G to connect to the third-party, and scan a QR code to pay.
3128 2011-06-10 21:46:12 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: that is an unreasonable request
3129 2011-06-10 21:46:17 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: no it's not
3130 2011-06-10 21:46:21 <TD> yes, just NFC is easy and i'm sure one of the android clients based on bitcoinj being developed will do it
3131 2011-06-10 21:46:27 theymos has joined
3132 2011-06-10 21:46:39 <arienh4> TD: So what's the hard part?
3133 2011-06-10 21:46:40 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: i'd pay a premium for it. I'm not saying i want it for free.
3134 2011-06-10 21:46:40 <TD> NFC+the security stuff Wallet does is much harder
3135 2011-06-10 21:46:46 <TD> hard part of what >?
3136 2011-06-10 21:46:53 <arienh4> TD: What kind of security stuff does it do?
3137 2011-06-10 21:47:14 <arienh4> Due to the budget, it's a low-risk situation, wouldn't AES suffice?
3138 2011-06-10 21:47:25 <TD> honestly, i'm not sure I can discuss it. Wallet is Google proprietary and the underlying infrastructure is complicated.
3139 2011-06-10 21:47:33 <TD> but essentially the phone is not involved in the transaction
3140 2011-06-10 21:47:36 <arienh4> TD: Do you work with Google?
3141 2011-06-10 21:47:39 <TD> yeah
3142 2011-06-10 21:47:43 <arienh4> Ah.
3143 2011-06-10 21:47:56 <arienh4> Well, yeah, I got that it doesn't use the phone.
3144 2011-06-10 21:48:11 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: i don't, but the way i understand it is that the phone is just a semi-secured pass through to google's api over ssl
3145 2011-06-10 21:48:25 <jrmithdobbs> which basedo n what td just said sounds about right
3146 2011-06-10 21:48:28 <arienh4> Your payment credentials are stored in a chip called the Secure Element contained within your Nexus S 4G. The Secure Element is isolated from your phone.s main operating system and hardware. Only authorized programs like Google Wallet can access the Secure Element to initiate a transaction. Additionally, because Google Wallet enforces a PIN, the only way to transmit payment credentials is if you first enter the PIN.
3147 2011-06-10 21:48:35 lumos has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3148 2011-06-10 21:48:39 <TD> right
3149 2011-06-10 21:48:56 <arienh4> So that means that in order for it to be secure, Google has to work on it.
3150 2011-06-10 21:49:06 <arienh4> We need to get Google to support Bitcoin.
3151 2011-06-10 21:49:06 <jrmithdobbs> or bless it
3152 2011-06-10 21:49:13 normanrichards has joined
3153 2011-06-10 21:49:26 <jrmithdobbs> nah we need an open mobile crypto platform ;P
3154 2011-06-10 21:49:41 <jrmithdobbs> i'm getting annoyed by google's android shennanigans
3155 2011-06-10 21:49:48 <jrmithdobbs> sold out to the damned mpaa with the 3.x shit
3156 2011-06-10 21:49:52 <theymos> Are there any logs of this channel that have one page per day instead of multiple pages? I like to search for certain words. (The one I was using is now broken.)
3157 2011-06-10 21:49:59 <TD> arienh4: i don't think the SE stuff is applicable to Bitcoin
3158 2011-06-10 21:50:04 <TD> but i'm not sure. that's what i'm researching
3159 2011-06-10 21:50:19 <arienh4> TD: Can't it store the private key?
3160 2011-06-10 21:50:27 <arienh4> That's what it sounds like to me.
3161 2011-06-10 21:50:31 <TD> it doesn't matter. you have to trust the display and input.
3162 2011-06-10 21:50:46 <TD> otherwise a virus can just sit between the screen and the chip, rewriting inputs/outputs as it sees fit
3163 2011-06-10 21:50:52 <jrmithdobbs> and if it does store the private key it probably only lets you sign with it or replace the key
3164 2011-06-10 21:50:56 <TD> you think you're approving one transaction but are actually approving something else
3165 2011-06-10 21:51:00 <jrmithdobbs> which means it'll only work with certain types of key
3166 2011-06-10 21:51:05 <jrmithdobbs> which means ECC is probably right out the window
3167 2011-06-10 21:51:20 <arienh4> TD: Doesn't that risk exist for Google Wallet as well?
3168 2011-06-10 21:51:23 <TD> Wallet doesn't have that problem because it _only_ supports NFC/physical transactions
3169 2011-06-10 21:51:29 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3170 2011-06-10 21:51:37 <arienh4> And this wouldn't?
3171 2011-06-10 21:51:52 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: your method would depend on displayed data being verified
3172 2011-06-10 21:51:52 Moonies has joined
3173 2011-06-10 21:51:58 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
3174 2011-06-10 21:52:10 <TD> you could try and recreate something like the mastercard paypass infrastructure, but then bitcoin accepting merchants would require expensive hardware and to be approved by some central authority, i think
3175 2011-06-10 21:52:27 <arienh4> TD: Oh, you mean basically the terminal is connected directly to the chip through the NFC connection?
3176 2011-06-10 21:52:34 <TD> not very bitocin-like. the appeal of NFC payments (to me) is the ability for two people to touch their phones and send money just like they would hand over cash
3177 2011-06-10 21:52:37 <TD> yeah
3178 2011-06-10 21:52:39 <TD> exactly
3179 2011-06-10 21:52:54 <jrmithdobbs> also, the google wallet stuff is only supported on the Nexus S phones which are useless devices because they only come in one storage size with no expandable memory and my fucking music collection that i carry with me doesn't fit in it. fucking annoying. </rant>
3180 2011-06-10 21:52:57 <lfm> ya better if merchant can use regular PC and mobile is just java
3181 2011-06-10 21:53:01 <TD> the part of the phone that can be rooted doesn't really get involved much, from what i understand
3182 2011-06-10 21:53:05 ariqs has joined
3183 2011-06-10 21:53:27 Lachesis has joined
3184 2011-06-10 21:53:57 DontMindMe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3185 2011-06-10 21:53:57 kluge has joined
3186 2011-06-10 21:54:22 <jrmithdobbs> i seriously don't get where google is going with android. they're taking all the things that distinguish it from iphone os in a good way and throwing them out the window :(
3187 2011-06-10 21:54:27 DontMindMe has joined
3188 2011-06-10 21:54:45 <TD> hardly ...
3189 2011-06-10 21:54:53 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
3190 2011-06-10 21:54:54 <gribble> 129892
3191 2011-06-10 21:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> TD: 3.x is closed. The new google-blessed hardware (nexus s) doesn't have expandable memory.
3192 2011-06-10 21:55:30 <jrmithdobbs> those were the two biggest distinguishing factors from my point of view.
3193 2011-06-10 21:55:31 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: A lot of these issues are due to carriers, not Google.
3194 2011-06-10 21:55:36 <TD> well, the point of android is that if you want expandable memory (or whatever) there's a device out there for you. any phone has _some_ design compromises
3195 2011-06-10 21:55:41 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: neither of those issues are.
3196 2011-06-10 21:55:51 <TD> 3.x is closed until the next release, when it'll work on phones as well as tablets
3197 2011-06-10 21:56:01 <jrmithdobbs> so they say
3198 2011-06-10 21:56:03 <lfm> td there is (or will be) open 3.0 android?
3199 2011-06-10 21:56:05 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3200 2011-06-10 21:56:07 <jrmithdobbs> but they said that at 3.0 and 3.1 is out ...
3201 2011-06-10 21:56:15 <jrmithdobbs> so i don't know that i buy it
3202 2011-06-10 21:56:23 <TD> 3.1 is more of a maintenance release. it's not significantly different from 3.0
3203 2011-06-10 21:56:26 <jrmithdobbs> don't care
3204 2011-06-10 21:56:29 <jrmithdobbs> they lied
3205 2011-06-10 21:56:33 ericmock has quit (Quit: ericmock)
3206 2011-06-10 21:56:57 <TD> android does major releases a couple of times a year or so. the next "big" release for phones is going to be open sourced again
3207 2011-06-10 21:57:05 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3208 2011-06-10 21:57:33 <jrmithdobbs> at least htc has committed to not locking the fuck out of their bootloaders
3209 2011-06-10 21:57:36 <arienh4> TD: I still don't see what the point is of calling Android open-source. If anything it's semi-open.
3210 2011-06-10 21:57:40 <jrmithdobbs> hopefully they'll actually live up to that promise.
3211 2011-06-10 21:57:45 ChuckSchumer has joined
3212 2011-06-10 21:57:58 <TD> sure. android is a mix of idealism and pragmatism that has worked very well so far, i think
3213 2011-06-10 21:57:58 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: HTC has replaced a phone for me which I messed up by rooting it wrongly.
3214 2011-06-10 21:58:03 aasdasa has joined
3215 2011-06-10 21:58:03 <TD> remember the state of the mobile industry before android
3216 2011-06-10 21:58:14 <arienh4> TD: Yeah. People were more honest about them.
3217 2011-06-10 21:58:20 <lfm> arienh4: its the difference between gpl2 and gpl3
3218 2011-06-10 21:58:24 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: ya they replaced one that i bricked their shit wiimax firmware on too
3219 2011-06-10 21:58:35 <arienh4> Like iOS. At least Apple admitted that iOS was closed down.
3220 2011-06-10 21:58:37 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3221 2011-06-10 21:58:47 <arienh4> With Google you're never quite sure.
3222 2011-06-10 21:58:55 glassresistor has joined
3223 2011-06-10 21:59:00 <TD> you know, last i checked you can still get the OS on the best available android phone from git
3224 2011-06-10 21:59:05 <jrmithdobbs> and with their current trends i could see them never opening it back up just to appease the mpaa
3225 2011-06-10 21:59:10 <arienh4> TD: With half its apps.
3226 2011-06-10 21:59:21 <jrmithdobbs> i don't buy their "the code isn't presentable" crap. the android 2.x code base isn't presentable either. they released it.
3227 2011-06-10 21:59:33 <arienh4> Lots of the apps on a stock Android install are closed.
3228 2011-06-10 21:59:46 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3229 2011-06-10 21:59:56 <TD> 3.x isn't released because it doesn't work on phones, but that wouldn't stop some manufacturers attempting to mutilate it into working on phones anyway
3230 2011-06-10 21:59:59 <directhex> android is developed under a "throw the code over the fence and expect people to thank you for it" model, which is already somewhat distasteful for anyone used to community-based development
3231 2011-06-10 22:00:09 <jrmithdobbs> TD: i don't buy that.
3232 2011-06-10 22:00:18 <TD> android has to walk a fine line between being purely open and allowing a race-to-the-bottom which trashes the brand name
3233 2011-06-10 22:00:21 grubles has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3234 2011-06-10 22:00:36 <arienh4> TD: Which is why I don't get why they call it open. It isn't.
3235 2011-06-10 22:00:41 <jrmithdobbs> TD: they've already lost the race-to-the-bottom with the cheap chinese tablets
3236 2011-06-10 22:00:41 <TD> nobody wants the name "android" to become associated with "half baked crap that doesn't work" in the same way the desktop linux brand name did
3237 2011-06-10 22:00:43 <arienh4> And it can't be, I get that.
3238 2011-06-10 22:00:54 <arienh4> But Google shouldn't be claiming it is.
3239 2011-06-10 22:00:56 <TD> jrmithdobbs: not with honeycomb. so far AFAIK all those tablets are pretty good
3240 2011-06-10 22:01:10 Phoebus has joined
3241 2011-06-10 22:01:15 <jrmithdobbs> TD: right, it happened before honeycomb making their move retarded and pointless
3242 2011-06-10 22:01:15 <TD> well, i guess it depends on how you define open
3243 2011-06-10 22:01:35 <arienh4> TD: If you define open as "some bits are, and some bits aren't, and some bits are only in some versions" then Android is open.
3244 2011-06-10 22:01:38 <jrmithdobbs> tablets are a fad anyways ;P
3245 2011-06-10 22:01:57 <TD> some apps (like gmail, maps, etc) have technical reasons it'd be hard to open source them
3246 2011-06-10 22:01:59 <arienh4> TD: I, personally, define open as "all bits are open".
3247 2011-06-10 22:02:04 <jgarzik> ok
3248 2011-06-10 22:02:10 <TD> but this is pretty off topic
3249 2011-06-10 22:02:12 <jgarzik> this is getting into #bitcoin-android land
3250 2011-06-10 22:02:14 <TD> yeah
3251 2011-06-10 22:02:14 <jgarzik> folks
3252 2011-06-10 22:02:15 <arienh4> TD: I realise. I know Android can't be open. But that doesn't stop Google from claiming it is.
3253 2011-06-10 22:02:18 <directhex> arienh4: how's your openmoko treating you then?
3254 2011-06-10 22:02:19 <arienh4> jgarzik: Yeah, sorry.
3255 2011-06-10 22:02:21 <jrmithdobbs> TD: oh but btw, thanks for bitcoinj, having an easier to read implementation (of most parts i care about) has really helped me out
3256 2011-06-10 22:02:26 <TD> cool
3257 2011-06-10 22:02:37 <jgarzik> yeah satoshicode is not the easiest to read
3258 2011-06-10 22:02:41 <arienh4> directhex: It doesn't stop me using Android.
3259 2011-06-10 22:02:49 <arienh4> TD: Yeah, I agree.
3260 2011-06-10 22:02:52 <jgarzik> C++ magic makes simple things like "+" operator work differently
3261 2011-06-10 22:02:55 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i've figured out that fully 50% of the bitcoin code is shit wrappers around c libs
3262 2011-06-10 22:02:58 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ;P
3263 2011-06-10 22:03:06 <jrmithdobbs> makes it a pain in the ass to read
3264 2011-06-10 22:03:18 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3265 2011-06-10 22:03:22 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: if you had said "i've figured out that fully 50% of the bitcoin code is shit" I would have agreed w/ you, too
3266 2011-06-10 22:03:29 <arienh4> jgarzik: Isn't it possible to overload operators in Java too?
3267 2011-06-10 22:03:37 <jgarzik> arienh4: yeah, Java sucks too
3268 2011-06-10 22:03:39 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: well that too, but no reason to beat a dead horse
3269 2011-06-10 22:03:43 <jgarzik> :)
3270 2011-06-10 22:03:54 <arienh4> jgarzik: Every language sucks in its own little way.
3271 2011-06-10 22:03:57 <TD> java doesn't have operator overloading
3272 2011-06-10 22:04:04 <TD> (unfortunately .... lacks many other features too)
3273 2011-06-10 22:04:05 <arienh4> TD: Hmm, thought it did.
3274 2011-06-10 22:04:06 <jgarzik> java programmers love writing stupidly verbose code, but it doesn't seem to get abused like C++ does
3275 2011-06-10 22:04:14 <jgarzik> C++ programmers love to use every feature in the language
3276 2011-06-10 22:04:17 <jrmithdobbs> TD: operator overloading is overhyped
3277 2011-06-10 22:04:18 <jgarzik> just to show they are studly
3278 2011-06-10 22:04:19 <TD> java gets abused in other ways
3279 2011-06-10 22:04:25 <arienh4> TD: I think not having operator overloading is a virtue, personally.
3280 2011-06-10 22:04:32 * TD has seen interesting abuses of both languages
3281 2011-06-10 22:04:34 <arienh4> Especially for open-source code.
3282 2011-06-10 22:04:41 <jgarzik> java has a problem with "1,000,000 classes, just to do a simple thing like read a text file"
3283 2011-06-10 22:04:41 * arienh4 has seen interesting abuses of all languages.
3284 2011-06-10 22:04:45 <gmaxwell> Overloading is a great thing when you work alone.
3285 2011-06-10 22:04:48 <jrmithdobbs> TD: i've seen so much bad c++/ruby code that do backasswards counterintuitive things with operator overloading that I would PREFER every language require Obj.addition() etc methods
3286 2011-06-10 22:04:50 <arienh4> gmaxwell: Exactly.
3287 2011-06-10 22:04:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ding
3288 2011-06-10 22:04:58 <TD> i prefer to have languages with lots of features and then style guides that ban the more complex ones, as you can always make carefully considered exceptions to style guidelines
3289 2011-06-10 22:05:05 <gmaxwell> When someone overloads == to have fking side-effects... then the stabbing must begin.
3290 2011-06-10 22:05:07 <TD> but it does require discipline
3291 2011-06-10 22:05:07 Mononofu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3292 2011-06-10 22:05:16 <TD> this is what we use at work
3293 2011-06-10 22:05:16 <TD> http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cppguide.xml
3294 2011-06-10 22:05:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: or + to concat strings
3295 2011-06-10 22:05:19 <TD> it's not bad
3296 2011-06-10 22:05:24 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that one still pisses me off
3297 2011-06-10 22:05:26 dan__ has joined
3298 2011-06-10 22:05:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: as in, in place
3299 2011-06-10 22:06:00 ariqz has joined
3300 2011-06-10 22:06:12 alystair has joined
3301 2011-06-10 22:06:14 <jgarzik> C++ error messages produced by the compiler are borderline perl-regex-indecipherable
3302 2011-06-10 22:06:25 <jgarzik> with templates, op overloading and other hairy mess
3303 2011-06-10 22:06:33 <TD> that is true
3304 2011-06-10 22:06:40 <jrmithdobbs> oh god don't even start on templates
3305 2011-06-10 22:06:43 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3306 2011-06-10 22:06:47 <jrmithdobbs> why the fuck do you need a turing complete template language
3307 2011-06-10 22:06:50 <jrmithdobbs> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
3308 2011-06-10 22:07:07 Moonies has joined
3309 2011-06-10 22:07:09 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs++
3310 2011-06-10 22:07:10 <gmaxwell> Oh, thats not the problem.
3311 2011-06-10 22:07:10 <jrmithdobbs> strousup should be drawn and quartered for that
3312 2011-06-10 22:07:26 <gmaxwell> _Accidentally_ turing complete template language is the problem
3313 2011-06-10 22:07:34 <arienh4> See, now we're at least living up to half of this channel's name...
3314 2011-06-10 22:07:42 <jrmithdobbs> haha
3315 2011-06-10 22:08:14 <gmaxwell> E.g. lisp macros aren't the stuff nightmares are made of (at least not any moreso than lisp itself)
3316 2011-06-10 22:08:16 <arienh4> I was beginning to think we just used -dev to scare the users out.
3317 2011-06-10 22:08:19 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: also, i take offense to comparing c++ compiler errors to extended regex syntax
3318 2011-06-10 22:08:32 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: extended regex syntax is at least well defined cross-platform!
3319 2011-06-10 22:08:47 ariqs has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3320 2011-06-10 22:08:52 johnnympereira5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3321 2011-06-10 22:09:07 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: but both are not decidable in polynomal time.
3322 2011-06-10 22:09:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: lisp is awesome
3323 2011-06-10 22:09:34 <jrmithdobbs> as long as you can use a given lisp eniveronment without emacs, anyways
3324 2011-06-10 22:09:47 <jrmithdobbs> (you can't)
3325 2011-06-10 22:10:18 <arienh4> By the way, in an attempt to steer the discussion back to bitcoin-dev
3326 2011-06-10 22:10:35 <arienh4> the issue of not knowing whether the bitcoin address belongs to the store you're paying could be avoided using EV certificates
3327 2011-06-10 22:10:39 <arienh4> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/In-store_Transactions
3328 2011-06-10 22:11:12 Astrohacker has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3329 2011-06-10 22:12:08 <TD> yeah. i wrote that page ;)
3330 2011-06-10 22:12:48 <arienh4> TD: Oh. Well, your point stands.
3331 2011-06-10 22:12:53 <TD> hehe
3332 2011-06-10 22:13:01 <arienh4> I've never said that to anyone.
3333 2011-06-10 22:13:05 <arienh4> Interesting.
3334 2011-06-10 22:13:08 vigilyn has quit (Quit: ircN 8.00 for mIRC (20100904) - www.ircN.org)
3335 2011-06-10 22:13:25 drbrontosaurus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3336 2011-06-10 22:13:36 denisx has joined
3337 2011-06-10 22:13:38 drbrontosaurus has joined
3338 2011-06-10 22:14:03 <TD> there's a first time for everything
3339 2011-06-10 22:14:37 <arienh4> So the only disadvantage for the process on that page is the verification of the payment, which I've just proposed a solution for.
3340 2011-06-10 22:14:50 <roconnor> Hi TD
3341 2011-06-10 22:14:55 <jrmithdobbs> TD: wouldn't a simpler method, instead of EV, be to have them sign some one-time string?
3342 2011-06-10 22:14:55 <diki> tell me one good reason why one should mine when the block reward is 0 bTC?
3343 2011-06-10 22:14:57 <TD> hi
3344 2011-06-10 22:15:03 <arienh4> diki: Transaction fees.
3345 2011-06-10 22:15:03 <diki> no one will earn that way
3346 2011-06-10 22:15:05 <jrmithdobbs> with the key for the address
3347 2011-06-10 22:15:10 <diki> lolwut?
3348 2011-06-10 22:15:22 <arienh4> diki: The TX fees go to the miner that includes the TX in their block.
3349 2011-06-10 22:15:31 <diki> a measly 0.01 fee?
3350 2011-06-10 22:15:44 <arienh4> diki: With 50 transactions per block.
3351 2011-06-10 22:15:47 <TD> jrmithdobbs: yes, that allows you to prove ownership of an address. it doesn't let your device give you some kind of trustable human readable string
3352 2011-06-10 22:15:53 <TD> EV certs do that. they're expensive though :/
3353 2011-06-10 22:16:07 <gasteve> jgarzik: what's the policy for the master branch? is it intended to remain stable? I'd like to work from git & build from sources for a project I'm working on rather than download the tarballs from bitcoin.org, but I need a branch that is intended to remain stable
3354 2011-06-10 22:16:09 <diki> again, 0.50 per block for tx fees?
3355 2011-06-10 22:16:10 <diki> no thanks
3356 2011-06-10 22:16:15 <arienh4> TD: Most store chains will be able to afford them.
3357 2011-06-10 22:16:20 <jgarzik> gasteve: yes it should be stable
3358 2011-06-10 22:16:22 <arienh4> diki: The TX fee of 0.01 isn't set in stone.
3359 2011-06-10 22:16:22 <jrmithdobbs> TD: well, doing the one time signing gives you the same ammount of confidence as current cash transactions
3360 2011-06-10 22:16:23 <TD> sure
3361 2011-06-10 22:16:27 <gasteve> jgarzik: thx
3362 2011-06-10 22:16:58 dan__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3363 2011-06-10 22:17:49 ericmock has joined
3364 2011-06-10 22:18:33 pusle has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3365 2011-06-10 22:18:36 <arienh4> diki: When the coins reward drops, the amount of miners drop.
3366 2011-06-10 22:18:44 <arienh4> Therefore, the amount of transactions per block rises.
3367 2011-06-10 22:19:03 <arienh4> Besides, you have no idea what 0.5 BTC is worth in those days.
3368 2011-06-10 22:19:06 dan_ has joined
3369 2011-06-10 22:19:09 <arienh4> It could very well be $5000
3370 2011-06-10 22:19:16 <jrmithdobbs> TD: added that to the wiki. ;P
3371 2011-06-10 22:19:31 coinage has joined
3372 2011-06-10 22:19:50 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: But what if the attacker supplies that string?
3373 2011-06-10 22:20:00 <arienh4> Assuming they can compromise the terminal.
3374 2011-06-10 22:20:01 Lorenz has joined
3375 2011-06-10 22:20:08 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: what if the employee steals your cash
3376 2011-06-10 22:20:20 <arienh4> jrmithdobbs: Ah, so that's what you meant by that.
3377 2011-06-10 22:20:28 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3378 2011-06-10 22:20:31 <jrmithdobbs> arienh4: right
3379 2011-06-10 22:20:40 <Wuked> what's the best way to store a BTC transaction in mysql ? Float ??
3380 2011-06-10 22:20:47 <Wuked> (the value)
3381 2011-06-10 22:21:02 <lfm> Wuked: no NOT FLOAT!
3382 2011-06-10 22:21:16 <arienh4> Wuked: In Satoshis.
3383 2011-06-10 22:21:22 <lfm> Wuked: if you cant do 64 bit binary then use a string
3384 2011-06-10 22:21:47 <phantomcircuit> Wuked, BIGINT
3385 2011-06-10 22:21:59 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3386 2011-06-10 22:22:06 <phantomcircuit> there isn't any version of mysql released in the past decade that cant do 64bit
3387 2011-06-10 22:22:14 underscor has joined
3388 2011-06-10 22:22:19 arienh4 is now known as ArdaXi
3389 2011-06-10 22:22:20 sipa has joined
3390 2011-06-10 22:22:21 Moonies has joined
3391 2011-06-10 22:22:28 <jrmithdobbs> i don't think mysql allows unsigned char values in it's strings
3392 2011-06-10 22:22:29 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3393 2011-06-10 22:22:38 <minus> Wuked: DECIMAL(16,8)
3394 2011-06-10 22:22:47 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: no I mean a decimal string
3395 2011-06-10 22:22:57 <ArdaXi> Ah, this suits me much better.
3396 2011-06-10 22:22:58 <jrmithdobbs> oh
3397 2011-06-10 22:23:04 <Wuked> I'm using ruby with mysql
3398 2011-06-10 22:23:25 <jgarzik> last night
3399 2011-06-10 22:23:30 <jgarzik> I was pondering removing decimals from bitcoin
3400 2011-06-10 22:23:39 <phantomcircuit> minus, that isn't right at all
3401 2011-06-10 22:23:41 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
3402 2011-06-10 22:23:45 <minus> not?
3403 2011-06-10 22:24:06 <minus> why not phantomcircuit
3404 2011-06-10 22:24:07 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: What about the client?
3405 2011-06-10 22:24:20 aasdasa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3406 2011-06-10 22:24:20 <lfm> Wuked: so doent ruby have 64 bit ints?
3407 2011-06-10 22:24:21 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3408 2011-06-10 22:24:41 <minus> lfm: ruby doesnt have size limitations on integers
3409 2011-06-10 22:24:52 <lfm> no problem then
3410 2011-06-10 22:25:18 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
3411 2011-06-10 22:25:31 BlueMatt has joined
3412 2011-06-10 22:25:31 lebish_zz is now known as lebish
3413 2011-06-10 22:25:32 <phantomcircuit> minus, 21*10^6*10^8 is the maximum possible btc value
3414 2011-06-10 22:25:40 <ArdaXi> Well, anyway, stores can hardly advertise BTC values on items in their store.
3415 2011-06-10 22:25:46 <ArdaXi> ;;ticker
3416 2011-06-10 22:25:47 <gribble> Best bid: 23.841, Best ask: 24, Bid-ask spread: 0.159, Last trade: 24, 24 hour volume: 84584, 24 hour low: 20.01, 24 hour high: 29.399
3417 2011-06-10 22:25:54 <ArdaXi> That was closer to 28 this morning
3418 2011-06-10 22:25:58 <jrmithdobbs> TD: btw do you have the javadoc up hosted somewhere for current trunk or should i gen it?
3419 2011-06-10 22:26:02 thedrs has joined
3420 2011-06-10 22:26:08 <minus> phantomcircuit: 8 digits in front of the comma, 8 after it
3421 2011-06-10 22:26:35 <phantomcircuit> minus, bah
3422 2011-06-10 22:26:36 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: ya ruby handles numeric values in a pretty cool way
3423 2011-06-10 22:26:38 <lfm> Wuked: just like for dollars and cents you should always work internally with cents, for bitcoin you should use the smallest possible unit (so called satoshi 0.00000001 BTC)
3424 2011-06-10 22:26:39 <minus> is 16 with 8 digits after the comma thus DECIMAL(16,8)
3425 2011-06-10 22:27:00 <Wuked> alright
3426 2011-06-10 22:27:03 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: they start off as a host-deteremind int (32 or 64 bit) with slightly less precision that is used to indicate type in storage
3427 2011-06-10 22:27:07 eianpsego has quit ()
3428 2011-06-10 22:27:10 <phantomcircuit> minus, dbs shouldn't be using decimals at all
3429 2011-06-10 22:27:17 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
3430 2011-06-10 22:27:18 <phantomcircuit> but i guess if you're going to that's the best way
3431 2011-06-10 22:27:19 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: once they hit the threshhold they get auto-promoted to something similar to openssl's BIGNUM
3432 2011-06-10 22:27:21 <TD> jrmithdobbs: the version linked from the home page isn't too far out of date, i think
3433 2011-06-10 22:27:30 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: it's pretty cool if you look at it actually
3434 2011-06-10 22:27:46 <minus> yeah, might be the best if i just amount*1e8
3435 2011-06-10 22:27:48 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: does it interface to mysql well?
3436 2011-06-10 22:28:01 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: that assumes anything interfaces to mysql well
3437 2011-06-10 22:28:03 <thedrs> hi ppl, i am trying to compile ufasoft miner on ubuntu, but i am having problems getting gcc-4.5 (apt-get install gcc-4.5 ----> "E: Couldn't find package gcc-4.5"), help ?
3438 2011-06-10 22:28:07 <jrmithdobbs> but as good as anything else, yes
3439 2011-06-10 22:28:52 <minus> lfm: you just need a sufficiently large datatype in your table
3440 2011-06-10 22:29:21 <diki> there was this open source pool that was different from xenland's
3441 2011-06-10 22:29:23 <diki> what is it?
3442 2011-06-10 22:29:28 <diki> pool frontend!!
3443 2011-06-10 22:29:38 <Wuked> there is a guy working on one
3444 2011-06-10 22:29:41 <Wuked> in ruby
3445 2011-06-10 22:29:44 <Wuked> but it's not released ?
3446 2011-06-10 22:30:04 <lfm> pudnpop had one
3447 2011-06-10 22:30:33 <jrmithdobbs> wait, i thought btc addresses were versin + ripe160md + checksum ... they're version + sha256(sha256(privkey)) + checksum ??
3448 2011-06-10 22:30:54 <sipa> they're version + ripemd160(sha256(pubkey)) + checksum
3449 2011-06-10 22:31:03 <jrmithdobbs> err ya pub not priv
3450 2011-06-10 22:31:05 <Wuked> I'm just trying to find the best way to stick as close as possible to the data given by the bitcoin client
3451 2011-06-10 22:31:12 <Wuked> so lets say you find a block = 50.00000000
3452 2011-06-10 22:31:16 <Wuked> BTC
3453 2011-06-10 22:31:23 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3454 2011-06-10 22:31:28 <thedrs> [ i have the experimental "http://ftp.debian.org/debian experimental main" in my /etc/apt/sources.list - am i forgetting something ? ]
3455 2011-06-10 22:31:29 <diki> no it's a new frontend
3456 2011-06-10 22:31:35 <diki> but released before xen's
3457 2011-06-10 22:31:37 <ArdaXi> The wiki says Bitcoin Address = Base58Encode(Key hash concatenated with Checksum)
3458 2011-06-10 22:31:55 <lfm> Wuked: so stor it as 5000000000 satoshi
3459 2011-06-10 22:31:57 <ArdaXi> Shouldn't this be Bitcoin Address = Base58Encode(Version concatenated Key hash concatenated with Checksum)?
3460 2011-06-10 22:32:13 <sipa> yes
3461 2011-06-10 22:32:15 <ArdaXi> Oh, wait, the version is in the key hash. Never mind.
3462 2011-06-10 22:32:20 dubious has left ()
3463 2011-06-10 22:32:27 <ArdaXi> Key hash = Version concatenated with RIPEMD-160(SHA-256(public key))
3464 2011-06-10 22:32:30 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: ya i know the base58 part ;P
3465 2011-06-10 22:32:37 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3466 2011-06-10 22:33:08 <sipa> and checksum is the first 32 bits of sha256(sha256(version + ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))))
3467 2011-06-10 22:33:12 <sipa> i believe
3468 2011-06-10 22:33:21 <ArdaXi> sipa: Yes.
3469 2011-06-10 22:33:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that's what i'm trying to track down
3470 2011-06-10 22:33:31 <ArdaXi> Checksum = 1st 4 bytes of SHA-256(SHA-256(Key hash))
3471 2011-06-10 22:33:39 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: it's all in base58.h
3472 2011-06-10 22:33:39 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: this is in the wiki? where? it wasn't last i looked
3473 2011-06-10 22:33:45 <ArdaXi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses
3474 2011-06-10 22:33:51 erle- has joined
3475 2011-06-10 22:33:54 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that code is retardly complex to trace
3476 2011-06-10 22:34:00 slush is now known as Tycho
3477 2011-06-10 22:34:07 <ArdaXi> This is why I prefer the wiki.
3478 2011-06-10 22:34:08 Tycho is now known as slush
3479 2011-06-10 22:34:15 <lfm> ya key hash is ripem(sha(key)) and checksum is head(sha(sha(hash)))
3480 2011-06-10 22:34:19 <diki> the pool frontend i am looking for has this design
3481 2011-06-10 22:34:20 <diki> http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5650/unledeza.jpg
3482 2011-06-10 22:34:22 <ArdaXi> I absolutely despise reading C code to distill a protocol from them.
3483 2011-06-10 22:34:22 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i think key.h is pretty clear compared to some other parts :)
3484 2011-06-10 22:34:37 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
3485 2011-06-10 22:34:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: yes but the actual encoding portions not so much
3486 2011-06-10 22:34:54 <sipa> eh, i mean base58.h
3487 2011-06-10 22:35:13 <sipa> look at the last function, PubKeyToAddress
3488 2011-06-10 22:35:14 <CIA-31> bitcoin: BTC-Bear * ra6d3e08e739a supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpg-eauth-colloquy.applescript: Had an Issue with Script when gpg key had a passphrase. http://tinyurl.com/5veegmo
3489 2011-06-10 22:35:16 <CIA-31> bitcoin: nanotube * reac895ac216a supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpg-eauth-colloquy.applescript: Merge pull request #16 from BTC-Bear/patch-1 http://tinyurl.com/6xtptkh
3490 2011-06-10 22:35:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i suppose if you know what all the C* classes it uses actually are already it's not too bad
3491 2011-06-10 22:35:30 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
3492 2011-06-10 22:35:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 129892 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 1147 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 17 hours, 57 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 787629.15033794
3493 2011-06-10 22:35:48 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: nope, never gets better! grin
3494 2011-06-10 22:35:56 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: good point, C++ is able to hide quite some things behind overloaded operators
3495 2011-06-10 22:36:22 <jrmithdobbs> i wish satoshi had just stuck the openssl code directly in the functions instead of wrapping it
3496 2011-06-10 22:36:29 <jrmithdobbs> confusing as fuck
3497 2011-06-10 22:36:39 <lfm> sipa: bitcoin doesnt use much overloading does it, except maybe bignums
3498 2011-06-10 22:37:14 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3499 2011-06-10 22:37:38 Moonies has joined
3500 2011-06-10 22:37:47 <jgarzik> sipa: are you gonna be able to look at the connect() pull? if not, I think I will have time this weekend. Want to get 0.3.23-rc1 out Monday, perhaps.
3501 2011-06-10 22:37:51 <diki> nobody knows the name of the frontend?
3502 2011-06-10 22:38:11 <sipa> jgarzik: oh right, almost forgot
3503 2011-06-10 22:38:28 <sipa> wrote working select()-based connect in the train
3504 2011-06-10 22:38:53 * jgarzik cheers
3505 2011-06-10 22:38:55 <jgarzik> awesome
3506 2011-06-10 22:39:09 <jgarzik> sipa: that's the proper way to do connect(). I dunno what crack phantomcircuit was smoking :)
3507 2011-06-10 22:39:18 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
3508 2011-06-10 22:39:20 <luke-jr> sipa: why not poll?
3509 2011-06-10 22:39:20 MasterChief has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3510 2011-06-10 22:39:25 GarrettB has joined
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3512 2011-06-10 22:39:25 GarrettB has joined
3513 2011-06-10 22:39:48 <sipa> luke-jr: does it make a difference?
3514 2011-06-10 22:39:54 MasterChief has joined
3515 2011-06-10 22:40:00 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i was trying to keep the patch as simple and obvious as possible
3516 2011-06-10 22:40:09 <luke-jr> sipa: select() maxes out at 1024 fds
3517 2011-06-10 22:40:10 <denisx> jgarzik: are you also maintaining the bitcoin.org website? the osx version is still 0.3.21 but the 0.3.22 is already on sourceforge
3518 2011-06-10 22:40:13 <sipa> luke-jr: right
3519 2011-06-10 22:40:16 <GarrettB> quick question: is there always a 100 key buffer in the wallet, or does it generate them in blocks
3520 2011-06-10 22:40:24 <sipa> GarrettB: always
3521 2011-06-10 22:40:26 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: it does overloading on bignums and it makes use of std::vector's overloading in several place
3522 2011-06-10 22:40:30 <GarrettB> sipa: cool, thanks
3523 2011-06-10 22:40:32 Tarlusk has left ()
3524 2011-06-10 22:40:46 <sipa> GarrettB: it's topped up every time one is used
3525 2011-06-10 22:40:46 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: there's large sections of the code that are *dangerous* to read as someone more familiar with c89/99 than c++
3526 2011-06-10 22:40:53 <jgarzik> denisx: I can change bitcoin.org main page, yes
3527 2011-06-10 22:40:55 ArdaXi has quit (Quit: leaving)
3528 2011-06-10 22:41:00 M4v3R has quit (Quit: M4v3R)
3529 2011-06-10 22:41:01 <sipa> luke-jr: that's a good reason - i'll use poll
3530 2011-06-10 22:41:02 arienh4 has joined
3531 2011-06-10 22:41:07 <kluge> how does a pool distribute work?
3532 2011-06-10 22:41:13 arienh4 is now known as ArdaXi
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3534 2011-06-10 22:41:33 ArdaXi has joined
3535 2011-06-10 22:41:42 <denisx> jgarzik: 0.3.22 osx version is here already: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.22/
3536 2011-06-10 22:41:42 ArdaXi is now known as Guest68197
3537 2011-06-10 22:41:49 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: eg, the wrapper for base58encode uses these two macros: #define UBEGIN(a) ((unsigned char*)&(a)) ... #define UEND(a)((unsigned char*)&((&(a))[1]))
3538 2011-06-10 22:41:50 <jgarzik> denisx: yes, I am well aware of that
3539 2011-06-10 22:41:54 <jgarzik> denisx: I uploaded it
3540 2011-06-10 22:41:54 <denisx> jgarzik: ok
3541 2011-06-10 22:41:57 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: I am one of those people, maybe I just havent delved into thos parts
3542 2011-06-10 22:42:20 Guest68197 has quit (Client Quit)
3543 2011-06-10 22:42:27 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: in c++ with std::vector that gives you the begining and end of the array
3544 2011-06-10 22:42:31 ArdaXi_ has joined
3545 2011-06-10 22:42:39 <jgarzik> sipa: use select
3546 2011-06-10 22:42:39 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: in c89/c99 that is fucking obviously nonsensical
3547 2011-06-10 22:42:48 <jgarzik> sipa: we don't have 1024 FD's, and poll isn't Win-friendly
3548 2011-06-10 22:42:54 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: but I spoze I got a good taste of it with the "difficulty" code I replaced
3549 2011-06-10 22:42:57 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: overloading of siveof is EVIL
3550 2011-06-10 22:43:05 <jrmithdobbs> s/siveof/sizeof/
3551 2011-06-10 22:43:22 AStove has quit ()
3552 2011-06-10 22:43:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: what if I want to connect to every node? :<
3553 2011-06-10 22:43:56 ArdaXi_ has quit (Client Quit)
3554 2011-06-10 22:44:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: first we ignore you, then we laugh at you, then...
3555 2011-06-10 22:44:52 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3556 2011-06-10 22:44:56 <luke-jr> jgarzik: btw, did you ever pull my pushpool fix for mysql?
3557 2011-06-10 22:44:56 <quellhorst> how do i get estimated next difficulty?
3558 2011-06-10 22:45:02 <sipa> ;;bc,estimate
3559 2011-06-10 22:45:03 <gribble> 781951.41748293
3560 2011-06-10 22:45:14 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: that's the biggest one that sticks in my memory tho
3561 2011-06-10 22:45:42 <jrmithdobbs> mostly because i had to stare at it a while because I obviously knew what it was doing from context but the code made no sense to me;P
3562 2011-06-10 22:45:49 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I've merged several of your fixes. Can you be more specific?
3563 2011-06-10 22:45:52 <jgarzik> denisx: fixed
3564 2011-06-10 22:46:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: pushpool was linking to mysql lib wrong
3565 2011-06-10 22:46:20 ArdaXi_ has joined
3566 2011-06-10 22:46:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I think pushpool still needs that fix. git url?
3567 2011-06-10 22:46:40 <sipa> jgarzik, luke-jr: supporting more than 1024 file descriptors is a reasonable thing imho, but if there are compatbility issues, i'd prefer to avoid those now, and select() is already use elsewhere
3568 2011-06-10 22:46:53 hacim has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3569 2011-06-10 22:47:09 <jgarzik> sipa: the specific code in question never deals with more than one FD ;)
3570 2011-06-10 22:47:21 ArdaXi_ is now known as ArdaXi
3571 2011-06-10 22:47:25 <sipa> jgarzik: it's the highest number fd used, no?
3572 2011-06-10 22:47:25 ArdaXi has quit (Changing host)
3573 2011-06-10 22:47:25 ArdaXi has joined
3574 2011-06-10 22:47:26 <phantomcircuit> yeah
3575 2011-06-10 22:47:32 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool.git
3576 2011-06-10 22:47:44 <sipa> fd_set is a 128-byte bitarray
3577 2011-06-10 22:47:51 <sipa> or i am wrong?
3578 2011-06-10 22:47:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the connect will never be dealing with more than 1 socket simultaneously
3579 2011-06-10 22:48:04 <lfm> variable length
3580 2011-06-10 22:48:07 <jgarzik> sipa: platform detail -- ignore
3581 2011-06-10 22:48:11 <jgarzik> sipa: just use FD_* macros
3582 2011-06-10 22:48:15 <sipa> jgarzik: of course
3583 2011-06-10 22:48:25 <sipa> i know it's implementation dependent
3584 2011-06-10 22:48:29 <jgarzik> luke-jr: master branch?
3585 2011-06-10 22:48:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: yep
3586 2011-06-10 22:48:45 <sipa> i just mean: is it that fd_set doesn't support >1024 fd's, or doesn't support fd's numbered above 1023
3587 2011-06-10 22:48:52 <sipa> i believe it is the latter
3588 2011-06-10 22:48:55 <diki> forum is loading slow
3589 2011-06-10 22:48:59 <lfm> sipa in linux there are various places with 1024 fd limit
3590 2011-06-10 22:48:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: the point re fd_set size, is that it doesn't matter *how many* fds are being watching, just how many the entire process has ;p
3591 2011-06-10 22:49:09 ArdaXi has quit (Client Quit)
3592 2011-06-10 22:49:15 ArdaXi has joined
3593 2011-06-10 22:49:20 <jgarzik> luke-jr: true
3594 2011-06-10 22:49:41 Breign has quit ()
3595 2011-06-10 22:49:43 ArdaXi is now known as Guest86756
3596 2011-06-10 22:49:51 <diki> jgarzik:how does your software loop around to "watch" for incoming connections?
3597 2011-06-10 22:50:01 <jgarzik> diki: libevent
3598 2011-06-10 22:50:03 <diki> i onlt see main_loop but it's not what i think it does
3599 2011-06-10 22:50:08 <sipa> anyway, using select() implies we cannot use more than 1024 fd's in the program - i find that a low-priority but relevent limitation
3600 2011-06-10 22:50:10 MasterChief has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3601 2011-06-10 22:50:16 <sipa> *relevant
3602 2011-06-10 22:50:21 <CIA-31> bitcoin: various personal * rd917fe..d8ebf8 pushpool-personal/ (util.c msg.c Makefile.am): (6 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3egzu9w
3603 2011-06-10 22:50:26 <sipa> anyway, using select() now
3604 2011-06-10 22:50:39 <luke-jr> (that was just me rebasing)
3605 2011-06-10 22:50:41 Guest86756 is now known as ArdaXi
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3607 2011-06-10 22:50:45 ArdaXi has joined
3608 2011-06-10 22:51:27 <lfm> seems bitcoin (on linux) has a 125 connection cap
3609 2011-06-10 22:51:59 <jgarzik> lfm: you should be able to change that w/ command line
3610 2011-06-10 22:52:30 <jrmithdobbs> there's something else going on where the connection limit seems to function properly for the first ~24 hours and then stops
3611 2011-06-10 22:52:31 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3612 2011-06-10 22:52:41 <jrmithdobbs> eg, you can patch the code to where you'll end up with 256+ connections pretty easy
3613 2011-06-10 22:52:51 Moonies has joined
3614 2011-06-10 22:52:51 <jrmithdobbs> but they almost all drop off within 48 hours
3615 2011-06-10 22:52:53 MasterChief has joined
3616 2011-06-10 22:53:01 <jrmithdobbs> no idea why
3617 2011-06-10 22:53:10 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: is that including incoming connections?
3618 2011-06-10 22:53:38 zamgo has joined
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3620 2011-06-10 22:54:40 <phantomcircuit> lfm, you can change that, but dont
3621 2011-06-10 22:54:50 <phantomcircuit> lfm, it's there for a reason
3622 2011-06-10 22:55:09 <diki> any ideas how to calculate round time?
3623 2011-06-10 22:55:17 <diki> from where do i start counting?
3624 2011-06-10 22:55:37 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: yes
3625 2011-06-10 22:55:38 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3626 2011-06-10 22:55:44 <diki> cause i dont intend to keep the shares from every round so...
3627 2011-06-10 22:56:02 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: but it does the same thing even if you patch it so that it'll make 256+ outbound connections
3628 2011-06-10 22:56:03 <Wayno> diki just do on newblock
3629 2011-06-10 22:56:08 <lfm> jgarzik: ok found -maxconnections= default 125. Its not in -? help
3630 2011-06-10 22:56:15 <Wayno> move shares to share_history
3631 2011-06-10 22:56:29 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i've not tried to track it down but it's def weird
3632 2011-06-10 22:56:48 <phantomcircuit> lfm, like i just said dont increase that unless you *absolutely* have to
3633 2011-06-10 22:56:51 ariqz has quit ()
3634 2011-06-10 22:57:16 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
3635 2011-06-10 22:57:34 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya I am running up against that limit now but actually I think I should cut it back for the sake of my link
3636 2011-06-10 22:57:56 <phantomcircuit> limit for what?
3637 2011-06-10 22:58:03 <lfm> 125 connections
3638 2011-06-10 22:58:07 <denisx> I have the problem that blkmond can't connect to bitcoind because all connections are already in use
3639 2011-06-10 22:58:08 <phantomcircuit> unless you're running a miner you shouldn't increase that
3640 2011-06-10 22:58:19 zamgo has left ()
3641 2011-06-10 22:58:50 <phantomcircuit> lfm, miner farm
3642 2011-06-10 22:58:57 <lfm> phantomcircuit: like I said, I think I should REDUCE it
3643 2011-06-10 22:59:14 <phantomcircuit> oh
3644 2011-06-10 22:59:16 <phantomcircuit> ok then
3645 2011-06-10 22:59:18 <lfm> phantomcircuit: no, no rpc connects, main net connects
3646 2011-06-10 22:59:27 <phantomcircuit> yes im aware of what it does
3647 2011-06-10 22:59:34 <phantomcircuit> that limit was added because of me...
3648 2011-06-10 23:00:12 <lfm> ya when you start accepting incomming they just keep comming dont they! grin
3649 2011-06-10 23:00:39 <phantomcircuit> hint with 125 connections you need to have at least 125*10M of ram available
3650 2011-06-10 23:00:44 <iz> i limited mine down to 10 and it seems fine
3651 2011-06-10 23:00:52 <lfm> still it seems it should be in the -? help
3652 2011-06-10 23:02:05 <jrmithdobbs> am i retarded or did github move the damned create repo button on me
3653 2011-06-10 23:02:28 <jrmithdobbs> i haven't created something except from a fork for a while ;P
3654 2011-06-10 23:02:42 <quellhorst> how do i get estimated next difficulty?
3655 2011-06-10 23:03:35 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
3656 2011-06-10 23:03:37 <gribble> Current Blocks: 129896 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 1143 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 782062.10047428
3657 2011-06-10 23:04:05 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3658 2011-06-10 23:04:24 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3659 2011-06-10 23:05:38 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
3660 2011-06-10 23:05:39 <gribble> 782062.10047428
3661 2011-06-10 23:07:07 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3662 2011-06-10 23:07:07 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
3663 2011-06-10 23:07:43 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3664 2011-06-10 23:08:06 Moonies has joined
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3668 2011-06-10 23:12:40 simkiss has joined
3669 2011-06-10 23:14:15 Kireji has joined
3670 2011-06-10 23:14:19 <Kireji> what is this block
3671 2011-06-10 23:14:21 <Kireji> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000146039edc81a73e5376d262b46c5ee098322e40ec087181d45d5
3672 2011-06-10 23:14:29 <Kireji> it appears to be a block with no transactions
3673 2011-06-10 23:14:55 <minus> a genesis block
3674 2011-06-10 23:14:57 <Kireji> well, 1, but this perverts the reason to mine if someone can do this
3675 2011-06-10 23:15:11 <Kireji> Time?: 2011-06-10 20:21:32
3676 2011-06-10 23:15:26 <mologie> the genesis block is block 1 minus
3677 2011-06-10 23:15:33 <Kireji> I thought there was only 1 genisis block, at the start of the block chain
3678 2011-06-10 23:16:24 Rudycoin has joined
3679 2011-06-10 23:16:53 <sipa> this is no genesis block
3680 2011-06-10 23:16:55 gsathya has joined
3681 2011-06-10 23:17:01 <sipa> it's just a block without transactions
3682 2011-06-10 23:17:40 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3683 2011-06-10 23:18:08 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
3684 2011-06-10 23:18:09 <Kireji> yeah, ok
3685 2011-06-10 23:18:22 kermit has joined
3686 2011-06-10 23:18:26 <Kireji> but if I can generate blocks with no transctions, why include transactions?
3687 2011-06-10 23:18:28 kermit has quit (Client Quit)
3688 2011-06-10 23:18:41 kermit has joined
3689 2011-06-10 23:18:43 bv has joined
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3691 2011-06-10 23:18:49 <mologie> transactions include fees, which you can claim for yourself if you include them
3692 2011-06-10 23:19:09 <Kireji> true, but they are ~.2btc now compared to 50
3693 2011-06-10 23:19:27 <Kireji> is it just that people who include transactions will make a longer block chain?
3694 2011-06-10 23:19:28 <mologie> well, it gets added to the 50 BC
3695 2011-06-10 23:19:29 <mologie> *BTC
3696 2011-06-10 23:19:32 <sipa> they also cost nothing to include for you
3697 2011-06-10 23:19:38 <mologie> and it doesn't cost you anything to include them
3698 2011-06-10 23:19:38 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3699 2011-06-10 23:19:44 <Kireji> true
3700 2011-06-10 23:19:46 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
3701 2011-06-10 23:19:51 <mologie> there's no reason not to inlcude them
3702 2011-06-10 23:19:56 <mologie> why that block has no transactions - no idea
3703 2011-06-10 23:20:03 <Kireji> mologie: huge reason - delaying transactions
3704 2011-06-10 23:20:26 <mologie> sure, someone else is just going to include them then though
3705 2011-06-10 23:20:34 <minus> less data to process?
3706 2011-06-10 23:20:38 <iz> sometimes there are just no transactions in a 10 minute period..
3707 2011-06-10 23:20:55 <iz> also, it's the same amount of data to process.. only the root of the transaction tree is hashed
3708 2011-06-10 23:21:06 <Kireji> how is the length of the block chained defined, by kb?
3709 2011-06-10 23:21:25 <Kireji> what keeps the pools from just solving blocks and not including transactions?
3710 2011-06-10 23:21:40 <mologie> people will probably stop using them then because they 'harm' the system
3711 2011-06-10 23:21:43 * lupine_85 pushes a bit more code
3712 2011-06-10 23:21:44 <Kireji> they keep getting 50 btc, and transactions do not get confirmed
3713 2011-06-10 23:21:59 <iz> Kireji: that would only work if ALL pools agreed to do that
3714 2011-06-10 23:22:08 <lupine_85> dear me, testing EventMachine is tough
3715 2011-06-10 23:22:16 <iz> otherwise it would just take a long time for transactions to go through, but eventually they would
3716 2011-06-10 23:22:19 <Kireji> again, the "deceptive greater-than-50% pool operator" problem
3717 2011-06-10 23:22:31 <Kireji> iz they would how?
3718 2011-06-10 23:22:45 <denisx> from the solominers
3719 2011-06-10 23:22:46 <iz> Kireji: because they would eventually get accepted into a block by some other miners
3720 2011-06-10 23:22:46 <Kireji> meaning once they were included, that new chain would become the longer block chain?
3721 2011-06-10 23:22:59 <mologie> btw, i read something about "a forged block would destroy the blockchain and kill the system" on the forums
3722 2011-06-10 23:22:59 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3723 2011-06-10 23:23:05 <iz> yeah, but then the transactions just all go into the next block
3724 2011-06-10 23:23:09 <mologie> urban myth or not, if not, how does it work?
3725 2011-06-10 23:23:14 <sipa> mologie: urban myth
3726 2011-06-10 23:23:21 Moonies has joined
3727 2011-06-10 23:23:28 <sipa> as far as i know
3728 2011-06-10 23:24:03 <phantomcircuit> mologie, that's a bunch of shit
3729 2011-06-10 23:24:08 <Kireji> when the client compares the length of the block chain, what is it comparing? transactions, KB, or number of solved blocks?
3730 2011-06-10 23:24:17 <phantomcircuit> mologie, the worst attack you can do against bitcoin is a double spend
3731 2011-06-10 23:24:19 <phantomcircuit> so
3732 2011-06-10 23:24:19 <sipa> Kireji: sum of difficulty of each block
3733 2011-06-10 23:24:27 <xelister> Kireji: summ of diff
3734 2011-06-10 23:24:30 <mologie> yeah that's what i thought phantomcircuit
3735 2011-06-10 23:24:43 <Kireji> so # of blocks, weighted by difficulty
3736 2011-06-10 23:24:57 <sipa> yes
3737 2011-06-10 23:25:11 <jgarzik> mologie: c.f. git
3738 2011-06-10 23:25:12 <sipa> basically, the statistically expected amount of work it took
3739 2011-06-10 23:25:18 <jgarzik> mologie: which uses same hash chain
3740 2011-06-10 23:25:24 <Kireji> does it include the number of transactions? (or do you mean just the scalar difficulty level)
3741 2011-06-10 23:25:28 <sipa> Kireji: no
3742 2011-06-10 23:25:34 <sipa> just the difficulty
3743 2011-06-10 23:25:39 <phantomcircuit> Kireji, just the difficulty
3744 2011-06-10 23:25:50 <phantomcircuit> also lol @ 4chan trying to tank btc
3745 2011-06-10 23:25:52 <phantomcircuit> morons
3746 2011-06-10 23:25:56 cenuij has joined
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3748 2011-06-10 23:25:57 cenuij has joined
3749 2011-06-10 23:25:58 <phantomcircuit> i wonder how much this is costing them
3750 2011-06-10 23:25:59 <sipa> "tank" ?
3751 2011-06-10 23:25:59 <xelister> tank? how
3752 2011-06-10 23:26:04 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ?
3753 2011-06-10 23:26:05 <Kireji> and solving a block is just a hash of the header, so it is not more diificult to solve with more or less or zero transactions, right?
3754 2011-06-10 23:26:06 <xelister> ?
3755 2011-06-10 23:26:07 <jgarzik> sipa: sink
3756 2011-06-10 23:26:14 <iz> Kireji: correct
3757 2011-06-10 23:26:18 <phantomcircuit> they're trying to drive the price on mtgox down by selling
3758 2011-06-10 23:26:19 <phantomcircuit> ie
3759 2011-06-10 23:26:26 <phantomcircuit> HURRR DURRR WE ARE 4CHAN
3760 2011-06-10 23:26:27 LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
3761 2011-06-10 23:26:28 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: doing a pretty good job, down $7 ;P
3762 2011-06-10 23:26:30 <xelister> phantomcircuit: ? what, they are not spamming txes with txfee? that would be moronic
3763 2011-06-10 23:26:45 <xelister> phantomcircuit: TROLOLOLOLOLOlolololl.... really????
3764 2011-06-10 23:26:50 <Kireji> k
3765 2011-06-10 23:26:50 <phantomcircuit> im 100% serious
3766 2011-06-10 23:26:51 <darbsllim> phantomcircuit how do you know this?
3767 2011-06-10 23:26:51 <xelister> how one have be moronic to do that
3768 2011-06-10 23:26:51 <jgarzik> the only thing that "sank" the price was the suddenly availability of dwolla withdrawals again
3769 2011-06-10 23:26:52 <mologie> alright, thanks for enlightening, the therm "forged blocks" is bullcrap
3770 2011-06-10 23:26:55 * jgarzik rolls his eyes
3771 2011-06-10 23:27:04 <Kireji> can you ref the 4chan links ?
3772 2011-06-10 23:27:05 <xelister> phantomcircuit: lol... that will give the opposing effect
3773 2011-06-10 23:27:08 <xelister> also, why would they do this
3774 2011-06-10 23:27:09 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, there was a plan at this
3775 2011-06-10 23:27:09 <Kireji> curious what they are trying
3776 2011-06-10 23:27:14 <xelister> isnt 4chan for freedom and so on
3777 2011-06-10 23:27:23 <sipa> Kireji: number of transactions is irrelevant for block's difficulty
3778 2011-06-10 23:27:34 <mologie> term*
3779 2011-06-10 23:27:35 <phantomcircuit> xelister, what? no they're for lulz
3780 2011-06-10 23:27:36 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: 4chan's for anime nerds
3781 2011-06-10 23:27:39 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ? I seriously doubt 4chan'ers have the money for that
3782 2011-06-10 23:27:46 <darbsllim> jgarzik d oyou think the dwolla availablilty really sank the price of btc?
3783 2011-06-10 23:27:48 <Kireji> so it seems that the only real *incentive* to include transactions is the tx fees
3784 2011-06-10 23:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: and /b/ is for anime nerd trolls
3785 2011-06-10 23:27:56 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: that are for feedom and anonimity, no?
3786 2011-06-10 23:27:58 <jrmithdobbs> they're usually not even funny trolls
3787 2011-06-10 23:28:03 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: mtgox API was not processing withdrawals for a few days. then it became unstuck in a rush.
3788 2011-06-10 23:28:04 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i think you under estimate the average 4chan user
3789 2011-06-10 23:28:05 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: no
3790 2011-06-10 23:28:06 <Kireji> and a minor emergent behavior that if a pool operator does not, others will
3791 2011-06-10 23:28:09 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: oh
3792 2011-06-10 23:28:09 DukeOfURL has joined
3793 2011-06-10 23:28:13 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: my description was complete
3794 2011-06-10 23:28:17 <xelister> ok ;)
3795 2011-06-10 23:28:20 <jgarzik> darbsllim: ^^
3796 2011-06-10 23:28:26 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: no, not really
3797 2011-06-10 23:28:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, what to cash withdrawals have to do with market price?
3798 2011-06-10 23:28:39 <Kireji> jgarzik: I liked the price dip :>
3799 2011-06-10 23:28:40 <phantomcircuit> unless people freaked out
3800 2011-06-10 23:29:07 <Kireji> phantomcircuit: people then sell to get cash because they can take it out
3801 2011-06-10 23:29:09 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: if you cannot withdraw money, there is greatly decreased incentive to sell
3802 2011-06-10 23:29:31 <xelister> jgarzik: only for very inpatient people.. no?
3803 2011-06-10 23:29:35 <jgarzik> people want instant mining payouts
3804 2011-06-10 23:29:54 <jgarzik> Kireji: many people liked the price dip :)
3805 2011-06-10 23:30:01 bv has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3806 2011-06-10 23:30:17 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: so, in sum, 4chan continues to be full of blowhards and idiots
3807 2011-06-10 23:30:17 <xelister> instant gratification need implies less bright people... I would suspect miners are mostly the opposite
3808 2011-06-10 23:30:27 <Kireji> jgarzik: ++
3809 2011-06-10 23:30:42 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3810 2011-06-10 23:31:00 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3811 2011-06-10 23:31:22 <darbsllim> jgarzik phantomcircuit I thoght the price drop was caused by the lack of volume ... the major spike in volume was around the same time as the yahoo money article, when lots of savvy investors with fresh money came in to drive up the price.
3812 2011-06-10 23:31:23 <kermit> Kireji: the ++ has to be attached to the name, like in C.. name++
3813 2011-06-10 23:31:25 simkiss has joined
3814 2011-06-10 23:31:26 <darbsllim> without new money, the price drops
3815 2011-06-10 23:31:29 <sipa> anyone want to test a windows version of select()-based connection timeout?
3816 2011-06-10 23:31:37 <luke-jr> xelister: 50% use Deepbit. Enough said.
3817 2011-06-10 23:31:56 <darbsllim> or am I wrong?
3818 2011-06-10 23:32:11 <phantomcircuit> darbsllim, you're probaly right
3819 2011-06-10 23:32:17 <jgarzik> darbsllim: that is true also
3820 2011-06-10 23:32:22 <jgarzik> darbsllim: total money decreased
3821 2011-06-10 23:32:26 <xelister> jgarzik>>1
3822 2011-06-10 23:32:34 <phantomcircuit> but there was a ton of shit on /g/ about intentionally pushing the price down by covering the gap
3823 2011-06-10 23:32:53 <phantomcircuit> which fyi is a tactic that works
3824 2011-06-10 23:32:59 <jgarzik> sipa: maybe call for Windows testers on #bitcoin and #bitcoin-otc also
3825 2011-06-10 23:33:05 <sipa> right
3826 2011-06-10 23:33:05 <gjs278> test what
3827 2011-06-10 23:33:12 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: you haven't spent much time on investor message boards, have you?
3828 2011-06-10 23:33:14 <gjs278> post it here
3829 2011-06-10 23:33:29 <sipa> gjs278: i'm building it now
3830 2011-06-10 23:33:34 <gjs278> cool
3831 2011-06-10 23:33:38 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3832 2011-06-10 23:33:53 <Kireji> kermit: there are plenty of Jeff's around, no need to increment
3833 2011-06-10 23:33:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, not really has the interest in btc shot up?
3834 2011-06-10 23:33:59 <jrmithdobbs> i'm pretty sure that the big price jump was someone figuring someone else's automated trading logic
3835 2011-06-10 23:34:00 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: for every market, -especially- thin markets, there are a million uninformed idiots, convinced they know why the market is moving the way it is.
3836 2011-06-10 23:34:10 <jrmithdobbs> because there's not been big rally since that first 22->30 one
3837 2011-06-10 23:34:14 <jgarzik> I'm sure 4chan is even worse, even more uninformed
3838 2011-06-10 23:34:17 <jgarzik> and that's saying something
3839 2011-06-10 23:34:23 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol yes that's how i informed my previous stock investments
3840 2011-06-10 23:34:38 <phantomcircuit> i would only make about 4 trades/year
3841 2011-06-10 23:34:52 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Quit: www.FaceFox.com)
3842 2011-06-10 23:34:54 <phantomcircuit> just wait to hear normal people talking about a specific companies stock tanking
3843 2011-06-10 23:34:56 <phantomcircuit> then buy it
3844 2011-06-10 23:35:08 <phantomcircuit> nearly 100% roi on bp
3845 2011-06-10 23:35:10 <xelister> you knife catcher you
3846 2011-06-10 23:35:11 <phantomcircuit> lololol
3847 2011-06-10 23:35:12 <gjs278> bitcoins are more fun than stock because you can argue about them more
3848 2011-06-10 23:35:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Central limit theorem may have something to say about a million uninformed idiots. ;)
3849 2011-06-10 23:35:30 <xelister> speaking of fun
3850 2011-06-10 23:35:32 <jgarzik> 4chan formula rings familiar: market moves, take credit for it.
3851 2011-06-10 23:35:44 agricocb has joined
3852 2011-06-10 23:35:49 <xelister> was jgarzik responding to dudes guestions about Silkroad in live camchat about "bitcoin is for good" ?
3853 2011-06-10 23:35:51 <Kireji> gmaxwell: uninformed idiots are not independent
3854 2011-06-10 23:36:01 <gmaxwell> Kireji: I was being silly regardless.
3855 2011-06-10 23:36:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: you know there are cases where the central limit theorem does not hold, right? ;)
3856 2011-06-10 23:36:15 <Kireji> true, but a useful kernel of truth there, sort of
3857 2011-06-10 23:36:44 <jgarzik> mtgox is simply a thin market, where it is difficult to get money into / out of the market. any price move may take a day, or three, to recover. Frankly, I am surprised that the market price is not -more- volatile.
3858 2011-06-10 23:37:00 <Kireji> jgarzik: have you looked at/tried tradehill?
3859 2011-06-10 23:37:10 <gjs278> tradehill if legit is much better
3860 2011-06-10 23:37:10 <Kireji> people have said it looks better designed
3861 2011-06-10 23:37:17 <gjs278> they have wayyyy more payout options
3862 2011-06-10 23:37:24 <sipa> no EUR yet
3863 2011-06-10 23:37:31 <Kireji> dunno, I gota referal, have not used it
3864 2011-06-10 23:37:42 <xelister> I wonder if btc will be 1000 usd ever
3865 2011-06-10 23:37:56 <Kireji> ever is a looong time
3866 2011-06-10 23:38:04 <gmaxwell> Yes, well, I mean efficient market hypothesis doesn't say that there isn't predicability, it says that people who are willing to tolerate infinitesmal marginal profits trade on predictability thereby removing it, leaving only a residual. But it doesn't work for thin enough markets, at least not quickly.
3867 2011-06-10 23:38:07 <midnightmagic> xelister: only if we make bitcoins usable, cheaply, and easily, to normal people
3868 2011-06-10 23:38:25 <midnightmagic> xelister: at which point there's kind of no limit to it.
3869 2011-06-10 23:38:28 <Kireji> midnightmagic: ++
3870 2011-06-10 23:38:28 <jgarzik> efficient market is a myth. a market is always seeking equilibrium, never attaining it.
3871 2011-06-10 23:38:40 <midnightmagic> xelister: we could easily see $10,000/฿
3872 2011-06-10 23:38:53 <xelister> midnightmagic: that would rock
3873 2011-06-10 23:39:05 <Kireji> midnightmagic: xelister: those comparisons also depend on the value of the dollar
3874 2011-06-10 23:39:08 <xelister> although
3875 2011-06-10 23:39:14 <xelister> soon usafags might ban it
3876 2011-06-10 23:39:27 <kermit> Kireji: oh i was thinking this was a different channel, nevermind
3877 2011-06-10 23:39:29 <midnightmagic> xelister: we need to remove the translation to/from real-world money from the concerns of people.. let someone else convert for them, for guarantees in prices, or convert the coins immediately to cash for merchants..
3878 2011-06-10 23:39:31 <xelister> isnt now even google "banned" from showing file sharing sites in results
3879 2011-06-10 23:39:38 <xelister> btc has no lobbying power
3880 2011-06-10 23:39:40 <Kireji> dramatic inflation in the dollar could have a spiral effect of pushing people to other currencies, and increasing the BTC/USD exchange
3881 2011-06-10 23:40:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: There is a more correct information theoretic statement that goes something like "the market tends to efficiency, and your information about the difference between the correct price and current price tends to nothing", which doesn't assume reaching equilibrium, it just assumes that no one actually knows where it goes next.
3882 2011-06-10 23:40:11 <midnightmagic> xelister: it won't matter. if you can charge your card at a PC, or from other people on the street, none of that will matter.
3883 2011-06-10 23:40:12 <Kireji> xelister: no
3884 2011-06-10 23:40:33 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3885 2011-06-10 23:40:34 <xelister> so if few usafags or franchfags(FR now arrests developers - e.g. developer of computer program to record music 'illegally' jailed for 6 months) then who will oppose
3886 2011-06-10 23:40:34 <Kireji> xelister: google removes some works from page previews and drop-down suggestions only, voluntarily
3887 2011-06-10 23:40:52 <xelister> Kireji: no there was something else days ago too
3888 2011-06-10 23:41:10 <midnightmagic> xelister: it'll move to a darknet, lost a lot of value short-term, but it will survive.
3889 2011-06-10 23:41:14 <xelister> midnightmagic: if it will be illegal many people will care
3890 2011-06-10 23:41:20 <Kireji> there was an addition to the un-promoted words, "megashare"
3891 2011-06-10 23:41:46 <Kireji> in search results, google does not filter in the US
3892 2011-06-10 23:41:49 earthmeLon has joined
3893 2011-06-10 23:41:53 <xelister> I think if USA would declare dicks illegal (MAY be used for rape, think of the children) some americans would volounteer for neutering
3894 2011-06-10 23:42:09 <xelister> selves
3895 2011-06-10 23:42:27 <Kireji> kindof off topic for dev channel
3896 2011-06-10 23:43:09 <xelister> midnightmagic: 99% of people have no idea how to protect their computers. and lots of people may quit btc if it is decallared illegal/evil just because they do not have own free will or are scared
3897 2011-06-10 23:43:28 luke-jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3898 2011-06-10 23:43:37 <midnightmagic> xelister: tor nodes will spring up, i2p will spring up, gateways between the two will flourish. it'll survive.
3899 2011-06-10 23:43:48 Lachesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3900 2011-06-10 23:43:57 <midnightmagic> xelister: it's too late now, Diamond Age darknets are coming.
3901 2011-06-10 23:44:53 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
3902 2011-06-10 23:44:55 luke-jr has joined
3903 2011-06-10 23:45:23 luke-jr has joined
3904 2011-06-10 23:47:25 jjjrmy has joined
3905 2011-06-10 23:47:42 <jjjrmy> Hey guys, I need some help with my site.
3906 2011-06-10 23:50:00 WakiMiko has joined
3907 2011-06-10 23:50:08 <phantomcircuit> xelister, i have little worry about btc being made illegal
3908 2011-06-10 23:50:38 james_ has joined
3909 2011-06-10 23:50:49 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3910 2011-06-10 23:51:43 <sirius-m> ha, satoshi has his own wikipedia page now
3911 2011-06-10 23:52:00 SkiesAreRed has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
3912 2011-06-10 23:52:41 <phantomcircuit> sirius-m, lol it was deleted at first for being unimportant or whatever
3913 2011-06-10 23:52:45 <phantomcircuit> oh wikipedia admins
3914 2011-06-10 23:52:48 <phantomcircuit> you silly people
3915 2011-06-10 23:52:51 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3916 2011-06-10 23:53:02 <GarrettB> phantomcircuit: the bitcoin article was deleted too :P
3917 2011-06-10 23:53:08 <sipa> Some have even suggested that Satoshi Nakamoto is not just a single person, but a group of people similar to the Anonymous group.
3918 2011-06-10 23:53:14 <sipa> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto
3919 2011-06-10 23:53:27 <sipa> ...
3920 2011-06-10 23:53:29 <phantomcircuit> GarrettB, yeah multiple times
3921 2011-06-10 23:53:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ahaha
3922 2011-06-10 23:54:51 <mtrlt> :D
3923 2011-06-10 23:54:58 <mtrlt> funny
3924 2011-06-10 23:57:16 lol420 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3925 2011-06-10 23:57:18 Ramokk has joined
3926 2011-06-10 23:57:48 alejandro_rd has joined
3927 2011-06-10 23:58:14 <diki> lately i have been forgetting to add ; to every line of code i write...
3928 2011-06-10 23:58:23 Breign has joined
3929 2011-06-10 23:59:17 <sytse> diki: oh my.. that's pretty serious.
3930 2011-06-10 23:59:23 <sytse> diki: have you been using python?
3931 2011-06-10 23:59:27 <diki> never
3932 2011-06-10 23:59:28 <sytse> .. or drugs?
3933 2011-06-10 23:59:31 <sytse> .. or both?