1 2011-06-11 00:00:31 <D0han> http://xkcd.com/353/
2 2011-06-11 00:00:33 <jgarzik> sipa: my wife suggested same
3 2011-06-11 00:00:38 <diki> lol
4 2011-06-11 00:00:44 <jgarzik> sipa: satoshi's code and writing is clearly a singular person
5 2011-06-11 00:00:53 <jgarzik> though who knows who, if any, are "behind" satoshi
6 2011-06-11 00:01:06 <sipa> well, i don't know
7 2011-06-11 00:01:33 <sipa> one thing that strikes me is that the design of the system is so polished and well thought out
8 2011-06-11 00:01:38 <sipa> while the code is so messy
9 2011-06-11 00:01:44 mmoya has joined
10 2011-06-11 00:02:12 <sytse> sipa: that would be explained immediately if he were to be a mathematician ;)
11 2011-06-11 00:02:15 <diki> you know, nakamoto-san could be watching you
12 2011-06-11 00:02:19 <sipa> haha
13 2011-06-11 00:02:21 <diki> right now, right here ;)
14 2011-06-11 00:02:34 <sytse> diki: so could jesus
15 2011-06-11 00:02:37 <diki> It could be the person you least expect
16 2011-06-11 00:02:39 <sytse> I'm not afraid of him :P
17 2011-06-11 00:02:51 Lorenz has joined
18 2011-06-11 00:02:58 <sytse> diki: hm, the person I least expect is me
19 2011-06-11 00:03:07 <sytse> suspicious...
20 2011-06-11 00:03:32 <jgarzik> satoshi said he wrote the code first, to convince himself it would work, IIRC. spent a lot of time fleshing out the design. he mentions a lot of this on the crypto mailing list(s) where he initially proposed bitcoin.
21 2011-06-11 00:03:40 <jgarzik> I wish somebody would collect satoshi writings
22 2011-06-11 00:03:41 <sytse> I would have to have been quite out of my mind to write such an article and not remember it though
23 2011-06-11 00:03:46 <sytse> and especially to write such code...
24 2011-06-11 00:03:51 <jgarzik> gather history of bitcoin + wise statements
25 2011-06-11 00:04:01 <jgarzik> plenty of bitcoin design still unimplemented
26 2011-06-11 00:04:45 <sytse> diki: it's pretty odd that he lays low atm imho
27 2011-06-11 00:04:48 <diki> <D0han> http://xkcd.com/353/<- gotta do one where a guy get's strangled by a snake. On his funeral, the saint/father sees his ghost and asks him "How did you die son?" Ghost replies: "I was strangled by Python"
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35 2011-06-11 00:05:29 <xelister> 01.03.55 < tiwwwwwwww> it turns out formatting your drive wipes all bitcoins you have away from the market permanently
36 2011-06-11 00:05:34 <xelister> trolololo ?
37 2011-06-11 00:05:44 <jgarzik> sytse: odd? just the opposite. with politicians talking about anti-bitcoin legislation, it makes sense.
38 2011-06-11 00:05:48 <diki> You hear about iphone 6?
39 2011-06-11 00:05:51 <phantomcircuit> xelister, lol where
40 2011-06-11 00:05:51 <diki> trololololo
41 2011-06-11 00:05:57 <jgarzik> who knows if Chuck Schumer wants to arrest Satoshi
42 2011-06-11 00:06:03 <jgarzik> like Dimtry Skylarov (sp?)
43 2011-06-11 00:06:03 <xelister> phantomcircuit: not sure someone re-pasted it in #freenet
44 2011-06-11 00:06:11 <phantomcircuit> obviously troll
45 2011-06-11 00:06:40 Cusipzzz has joined
46 2011-06-11 00:07:05 Incitatus has joined
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48 2011-06-11 00:08:07 <sipa> i wouldn't call that trolling - it's a very reasonable concern
49 2011-06-11 00:08:20 <sipa> that doesn't mean it's a problem
50 2011-06-11 00:08:38 <sytse> jgarzik: he seems ridiculously good in english for a japanese, though
51 2011-06-11 00:08:51 <xelister> http://hasSonyBeenHackedThisWeek.com/
52 2011-06-11 00:08:53 <xelister> ^----------- TROlolololo
53 2011-06-11 00:08:56 <xelister> lololo lololo
54 2011-06-11 00:09:16 <diki> sony deserves that shit
55 2011-06-11 00:09:19 <sipa> i'm quite sure he (or at least his spokesperson) was english - most likely USA is my guess
56 2011-06-11 00:09:28 <diki> it's obvious since they stopped updating the satio
57 2011-06-11 00:09:36 <diki> i spent so much money on a flagship phone
58 2011-06-11 00:09:38 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
59 2011-06-11 00:09:45 <diki> and it was and still IS(even more) JUNK!
60 2011-06-11 00:09:49 <sytse> jgarzik: maybe he has over 1000000 BTC and is nervous about that?
61 2011-06-11 00:10:05 <xelister> sytse: satoshi has 1+ mil
62 2011-06-11 00:10:10 <jgarzik> sipa: perhaps... in open source I know tons of people who write superb English. I know many Chinese and Koreans who learn English primarily from watching US television shows and movies :)
63 2011-06-11 00:10:12 <xelister> giving 20,000,000 USD theoretically
64 2011-06-11 00:10:19 <sytse> or more, who knows
65 2011-06-11 00:10:30 <jgarzik> s/people/non-Western people/
66 2011-06-11 00:10:44 <phantomcircuit> anybody who can code at all will know english
67 2011-06-11 00:10:45 <diki> jgarzik, why did you not mention the japanese?
68 2011-06-11 00:10:54 <phantomcircuit> there simply isn't any meaningful documentation that is in anything else
69 2011-06-11 00:11:00 <directhex> diki: symbian devices have only been flagship in the magical gumdrop kingdom for the past 5 years or so. not in real life.
70 2011-06-11 00:11:00 <diki> the japanese language is waaay easier to learn, ne?
71 2011-06-11 00:11:03 <sipa> jgarzik: i read about someone who analysed the time of his forum posts, and noticed they were all ua daylight time
72 2011-06-11 00:11:07 <phantomcircuit> unless you're writting keygens in which case russian is a real asset
73 2011-06-11 00:11:16 <sipa> s/ua/american/
74 2011-06-11 00:11:22 <sytse> diki: easier than english, I'm sure
75 2011-06-11 00:11:27 <diki> directhesomething: for SE that was a flagship phone
76 2011-06-11 00:11:33 <diki> it was their first symbian device
77 2011-06-11 00:11:36 <diki> and they FAILED!
78 2011-06-11 00:11:46 <jgarzik> speaking as someone learning Chinese... Japanese is definitely easier ;)
79 2011-06-11 00:11:50 <diki> they stopped updating the firmware and we RAGED
80 2011-06-11 00:11:55 <directhex> diki: just because they're fuckups, doesn't mean "caveat emptor" doesn't apply
81 2011-06-11 00:12:22 <diki> it had so much potential and so many bugs
82 2011-06-11 00:12:37 <iz> jgarzik: mandarin or cantonese?
83 2011-06-11 00:12:38 <diki> for an example, i plug in my earphones/headphones and phone automagically REBOOTS
84 2011-06-11 00:12:47 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol all the people in my high school (well in my classes) would take chinese school on saturdays
85 2011-06-11 00:12:49 eao has joined
86 2011-06-11 00:12:50 <diki> no, sorry, it shuts down...
87 2011-06-11 00:12:51 <sytse> jgarzik: the thing that's harder about japanese is mainly how many readings each character has, wildly different ones
88 2011-06-11 00:12:52 <phantomcircuit> that must have been terrible
89 2011-06-11 00:12:57 <jgarzik> iz: heh, mandarin. cantonese and -even harder- to learn!
90 2011-06-11 00:13:00 <phantomcircuit> especially since i would go and taunt them
91 2011-06-11 00:13:02 <jgarzik> s/and/is/
92 2011-06-11 00:13:11 <sipa> jgarzik: just the writing/speaking or also grammar/vocabulary/...?
93 2011-06-11 00:13:19 <jgarzik> sipa: all of the above
94 2011-06-11 00:13:26 <diki> well, watching anime for 5 years, one picks up a few words
95 2011-06-11 00:13:31 <iz> jgarzik: yeah.. i'm half cantonese and i tried like.. relearning it later in life.. but.. 7 tones.. i ended up studing japanese instead :b
96 2011-06-11 00:13:32 <directhex> diki: that's just SE. their earlier "smartphones" would do garbage collection by rebooting periodically. even mid-call.
97 2011-06-11 00:13:36 <sytse> jgarzik: oh, and names. Japanese names are a language in and of themselves.
98 2011-06-11 00:13:39 <sipa> i heard that chinese grammar was easier, but i only know some bit of japanese myself
99 2011-06-11 00:13:54 <JFK911> cao ni ma de bi
100 2011-06-11 00:14:02 <diki> watashi wo namae wa <insert name here>
101 2011-06-11 00:14:06 <jgarzik> Chinese is not an alphabet. At least Japanese has a decent abstract alphabet.
102 2011-06-11 00:14:24 <diki> they have multiple alphabets
103 2011-06-11 00:14:25 <jgarzik> not 100% of course, but common enough to leverage
104 2011-06-11 00:14:27 <iz> yeah
105 2011-06-11 00:14:29 <diki> Kanji,Hiragana,Katakana
106 2011-06-11 00:14:31 <diki> Furigana
107 2011-06-11 00:14:32 <jgarzik> yep
108 2011-06-11 00:14:43 <iz> chinese only has "kanji"
109 2011-06-11 00:14:51 <diki> furigana is used with kanji so reader knows what the word means
110 2011-06-11 00:15:01 <sytse> sipa: japanese grammar may be a slight bit complex (not as much as korean though) but I found it not too hard to learn with a little repetition from anime
111 2011-06-11 00:15:15 <jgarzik> korean is -easy-
112 2011-06-11 00:15:27 <sytse> diki: only when the reader isn't supposed to know already
113 2011-06-11 00:15:40 <diki> yeah, i remember trying to translate some manga
114 2011-06-11 00:15:49 <sytse> jgarzik: not easier than japanese, and the sound system is *MUCH* harder
115 2011-06-11 00:15:51 <diki> the agony it was searching for EVERY character one by one
116 2011-06-11 00:16:02 <jgarzik> sytse: respectfully disagree :)
117 2011-06-11 00:16:06 <iz> yeah
118 2011-06-11 00:16:12 <iz> chinese is way harder than japanese
119 2011-06-11 00:16:17 <iz> imho, also
120 2011-06-11 00:16:18 <diki> yes it is
121 2011-06-11 00:16:21 <sytse> iz: we're talking about korean vs japanese
122 2011-06-11 00:16:23 <iz> oh
123 2011-06-11 00:16:26 <jgarzik> sytse: I agree the sound system is non-trivial, but korean is quite phonetic
124 2011-06-11 00:16:32 <jgarzik> nice, abstract alphabet
125 2011-06-11 00:16:37 <iz> i don't know much about korean, so no comment on that
126 2011-06-11 00:17:29 <jgarzik> anyway. I need to learn to take myself to #bitcoin-offtopic
127 2011-06-11 00:17:35 <sytse> jgarzik: fairly phonetic to some degree, sure.. although you're going to have to learn a lot of vowels (as is the case with english, btw; english is much harder than korean in this respect, and nigh impossible with reading / writing)
128 2011-06-11 00:18:01 <jgarzik> english is a bear to learn, I'm told
129 2011-06-11 00:18:12 <sytse> the hangul is a big bonus though, you learn the basics in 1 hour
130 2011-06-11 00:18:13 <jgarzik> all the slang and common colloquialisms
131 2011-06-11 00:18:15 <diki> english is easy more or less
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133 2011-06-11 00:18:29 <sytse> as opposed to at least a week with japanese
134 2011-06-11 00:18:33 <diki> I wanted to go to Japan, but a friend told me they dont look foreigners with good eyes
135 2011-06-11 00:18:36 <sytse> (hiragana / katakana)
136 2011-06-11 00:19:13 <diki> they avoid you etc...
137 2011-06-11 00:19:16 <sytse> jgarzik: also, the orthography of english is hell
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139 2011-06-11 00:19:37 <sirius-m> diki: in my experience, they're generally very friendly and helpful to visitors
140 2011-06-11 00:19:41 <sytse> (and the phonology not easy at all either)
141 2011-06-11 00:20:01 <sipa> sirius-m: while you're here, can you update the webpage to include the 0.3.22 OSX build?
142 2011-06-11 00:20:14 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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144 2011-06-11 00:21:07 <diki> the suffix-es are important
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146 2011-06-11 00:21:14 <diki> i.e -san,-kun
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148 2011-06-11 00:21:22 <diki> but not limited to them
149 2011-06-11 00:21:35 <diki> for an example satoshi nakamoto would be Nakamoto-san me thinks
150 2011-06-11 00:22:13 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
151 2011-06-11 00:22:20 <sirius-m> sipa: ok. Gavin and Jeff have the update access too.
152 2011-06-11 00:22:26 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
153 2011-06-11 00:22:34 <sytse> diki: yes, nakamoto satoshi in full
154 2011-06-11 00:22:40 <sirius-m> and all who are given the project web rights at sf.net
155 2011-06-11 00:23:06 <diki> ah yes, they were spelled that way
156 2011-06-11 00:23:25 <sipa> ah
157 2011-06-11 00:23:27 <sytse> diki: also, equal length of syllables (with no english-style stress on them), and correct japanese-style stress, is fairly important
158 2011-06-11 00:23:30 <diki> if you are a girl, adding a ~desu would be nice :P
159 2011-06-11 00:24:30 <diki> if i go to Japan i am going to Tokyo, visit Akihabara
160 2011-06-11 00:24:31 <sytse> indeed, 'NAN DA YO, KORRYAAAA' is extra odd for a woman :)
161 2011-06-11 00:24:35 <sytse> ;)
162 2011-06-11 00:24:37 <zid`> akihabara sounds so fun
163 2011-06-11 00:25:02 <diki> comiket also sounds fun
164 2011-06-11 00:25:25 <diki> i would get so many random h-manga...
165 2011-06-11 00:25:40 <diki> but my fav, yuri, always
166 2011-06-11 00:26:34 <lorph> how do I adjust the difficulty for proof of work for a pool
167 2011-06-11 00:26:57 <diki> config.c
168 2011-06-11 00:26:59 <diki> easy_target
169 2011-06-11 00:27:00 <sirius-m> sipa: it's updated already?
170 2011-06-11 00:27:12 <lorph> diki: no way to do it without compiling?
171 2011-06-11 00:27:16 <diki> nope
172 2011-06-11 00:27:21 <sipa> sirius-m: oh, you didn't change anything?
173 2011-06-11 00:27:33 <sipa> sirius-m: i must have had a old version in cache, sorry
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175 2011-06-11 00:27:57 <dinox> If I want to calculate probability of finding a block in 100 shares, is this right?
176 2011-06-11 00:28:01 <dinox> 1 - (1 - 1/567,358)^100
177 2011-06-11 00:28:08 <diki> it's perfect
178 2011-06-11 00:28:09 <diki> :P
179 2011-06-11 00:28:27 <diki> or not...
180 2011-06-11 00:28:31 kreal- has joined
181 2011-06-11 00:28:37 <diki> for the power of you use pow()
182 2011-06-11 00:28:47 <diki> depending on the language
183 2011-06-11 00:28:57 <sytse> diki: seeing as he used ',' instead of '.'
184 2011-06-11 00:29:07 <sytse> diki: I suppose he meant that for human consumption only :P
185 2011-06-11 00:29:38 <dinox> diki: hehe, 1 - pow(1 - 1/567358) in programming language then?
186 2011-06-11 00:29:39 * diki founds a new song
187 2011-06-11 00:29:39 <diki> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-7jIYlp0M0
188 2011-06-11 00:29:43 <diki> *found
189 2011-06-11 00:29:51 <dinox> I'm just checking the maths
190 2011-06-11 00:30:06 <dinox> has never been good at probability theory
191 2011-06-11 00:30:30 <dinox> the funny thing is
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193 2011-06-11 00:30:53 <dinox> ;;calc 1 - (1 - 1/567,358)^567,358
194 2011-06-11 00:30:53 <gribble> 1 - ((1 - (1 / 567,358))^567,358) = 0.632120883
195 2011-06-11 00:30:56 <diki> you could for an exaple assign the result of (1 - 1/567358) to a variable and do pow(result,100)
196 2011-06-11 00:31:34 <dinox> yeah diki but the maths is correct? The implementation is no-problem :)
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201 2011-06-11 00:36:06 <dinox> just found this, seems like my math is actually correct http://mining.bitcoin.cz/media/download/poolcheating.pdf
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203 2011-06-11 00:38:17 <upb> diki btw what are you building ?
204 2011-06-11 00:38:26 <upb> i see youve been working on something for quite a long time
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206 2011-06-11 00:38:53 <zid`> I had thought of one cheat for slush's pool
207 2011-06-11 00:40:07 <diki> lolwut?
208 2011-06-11 00:40:13 <diki> why is slush hiding something like that?
209 2011-06-11 00:40:15 davex_r_ has joined
210 2011-06-11 00:40:47 <zid`> My cheat was the reverse
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212 2011-06-11 00:40:57 <zid`> solo mine until one of the pools goes beyond 15 mins, then mine on that pool
213 2011-06-11 00:41:02 <zid`> share values decay on slush's iirc
214 2011-06-11 00:41:11 <zid`> so you never mine the 'crap' shares
215 2011-06-11 00:41:40 <zid`> dunno whether it works though
216 2011-06-11 00:41:43 <diki> <zid`> so you never mine the 'crap' shares<-huh?
217 2011-06-11 00:41:47 <zid`> the blocks that take 4 mins can give good payout
218 2011-06-11 00:41:52 <diki> still, why the hell does he have that pdf there?
219 2011-06-11 00:42:10 <zid`> diki: share value on slush's pool decreases the older the share is, as I understand it
220 2011-06-11 00:42:17 <diki> yes i know that
221 2011-06-11 00:42:20 <diki> but what crap shares??
222 2011-06-11 00:42:32 <zid`> If a block takes an hour
223 2011-06-11 00:42:37 <zid`> and you mine for 30 minutes
224 2011-06-11 00:42:41 <zid`> you want to mine in the latter 30 minutes of the hour
225 2011-06-11 00:42:44 <zid`> rather than the former
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229 2011-06-11 00:47:11 <jgarzik> sipa, sirius-m: I just updated the bitcoin.org an hour or two ago, for OSX
230 2011-06-11 00:47:19 <jgarzik> posted about it in 0.3.22 thread
231 2011-06-11 00:48:20 <sipa> ah, explains
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235 2011-06-11 00:49:48 <denisx> jgarzik: thanks
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248 2011-06-11 00:57:23 <spitteler> i guess its just not possible to share a DATA folder (wallet.dat and other db files) between Mac and Windows Apps running off a thumb drive :(
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256 2011-06-11 01:03:19 <sipa> spitteler: should be possible, i think
257 2011-06-11 01:03:45 <spitteler> its looking like a versioning issue, but there is no 0.3.22 for mac
258 2011-06-11 01:03:49 Chopes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
259 2011-06-11 01:04:15 <sipa> there is
260 2011-06-11 01:04:30 <spitteler> website shows Mac OS X (0.3.21) 7.7MB
261 2011-06-11 01:04:40 <sipa> reload
262 2011-06-11 01:05:14 <spitteler> bwah did you just do that, and if so thank you :)
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264 2011-06-11 01:05:30 <sipa> 01:42:02 <@jgarzik> sipa, sirius-m: I just updated the bitcoin.org an hour or two ago, for OSX
265 2011-06-11 01:05:49 <jgarzik> shoot. I was just about to write "spitteler: sipa is cool like that"
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269 2011-06-11 01:08:32 <sipa> damn!
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274 2011-06-11 01:09:21 <sipa> i should surely try to get that mingw compiler running on my own system instead of in gitian's vm
275 2011-06-11 01:09:40 <sipa> i't not fun to see a windows-specific compile error after 40 minutes
276 2011-06-11 01:09:43 <sipa> *it's
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279 2011-06-11 01:11:23 <jgarzik> sipa: ouch
280 2011-06-11 01:11:38 <sipa> ... twice
281 2011-06-11 01:12:09 <sipa> sleep time now though
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285 2011-06-11 01:19:11 <spitteler> yeah, setting both to 0.3.22 didnt help :9
286 2011-06-11 01:19:34 <spitteler> i start on windows fine, mac loads fine, then when i go back to windows i get..
287 2011-06-11 01:19:34 <spitteler> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
288 2011-06-11 01:19:34 <spitteler> DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
289 2011-06-11 01:19:34 <spitteler> L:\Windows\bitcoin.exe in AppInit()
290 2011-06-11 01:20:39 <davex_r_> ;;bc,stats
291 2011-06-11 01:20:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 129912 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 1127 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 16 hours, 48 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 779904.16288475
292 2011-06-11 01:20:46 <sipa> spitteler: the mac and windows versions may be using a different bdb version, i just realize
293 2011-06-11 01:21:14 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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300 2011-06-11 01:30:35 <spitteler> sipa: yes that seems to be the issue, so it just wont work for the moment :(
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308 2011-06-11 01:38:57 <gavinandresen> spitteler: that is the issue, remove the database log files (just keep all the .dat files-- BE CAREFUL NOT TO LOSE YOUR WALLET) and it should work.
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316 2011-06-11 01:47:17 EraTroN has joined
317 2011-06-11 01:47:21 <EraTroN> hi all
318 2011-06-11 01:47:44 <EraTroN> i sell 1 BTC @ 30USD
319 2011-06-11 01:48:16 EraTroN has left ()
320 2011-06-11 01:49:17 <eamon> Would it be possible to set up a .onoin SILC server for anonymous bitcoin trading? It would be similar to #bitcoin-otc but secure and anonymous.
321 2011-06-11 01:49:18 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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323 2011-06-11 01:51:22 <spitteler> gavin: thanks for the response and i understand that. the goal was to have an interoperable thumb wallet
324 2011-06-11 01:51:39 <spitteler> just gotta wait for the mac version to catch up i guess :)
325 2011-06-11 01:51:47 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
326 2011-06-11 01:51:59 <gavinandresen> actually if i recall mac is bdb 4.8, everybody else is bdb 4.7
327 2011-06-11 01:52:07 Moonies has joined
328 2011-06-11 01:52:26 <spitteler> woot for mac! :)
329 2011-06-11 01:53:01 <Wuked> this is a rather n00b question, but, can anyone explain to me why some generated blocks have 1 transaction, for 50 BTC, and others have the 50BTC generation and then a load more transactions ?
330 2011-06-11 01:53:02 Castor_ has quit ()
331 2011-06-11 01:53:27 <gavinandresen> there's a big miner who is being a jerk and just including the one transaction in their blocks
332 2011-06-11 01:53:43 <Wuked> are those other transactions being verified or something ?
333 2011-06-11 01:53:58 <darbsllim> mybitcoin.com
334 2011-06-11 01:54:00 <darbsllim> who owns this?
335 2011-06-11 01:54:07 <darbsllim> doesn't Gavin own this?
336 2011-06-11 01:54:24 <gavinandresen> mybitcoin.com? No. dwdollar maybe? I can't remember....
337 2011-06-11 01:54:42 <gavinandresen> (my super-power is forgetting names)
338 2011-06-11 01:55:35 <darbsllim> just wondering how long it takes for a transfer t show up there
339 2011-06-11 01:55:42 <darbsllim> gavinandresen how was your trip to france
340 2011-06-11 01:56:33 Rudycoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
341 2011-06-11 01:56:44 <[Tycho]> Hello, gavinandresen. What do you think about http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14786.0 ?
342 2011-06-11 01:57:04 Lorenz has joined
343 2011-06-11 02:00:00 MartianW has left ("Bye all.")
344 2011-06-11 02:01:02 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: that would be like a block-chain lock-in every 5 blocks. Maybe not a bad idea at this point.
345 2011-06-11 02:01:32 Astrohacker has joined
346 2011-06-11 02:03:11 upb has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
347 2011-06-11 02:03:15 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen, can you please post this your comment in the thread ? :) Thanks.
348 2011-06-11 02:03:21 brunner has joined
349 2011-06-11 02:03:47 <devrandom> sipa: I hope to split off the dependencies into their own gitian builds soon. This will make builds much less annoying.
350 2011-06-11 02:04:38 <gavinandresen> [Tycho] : sure. needs lots more thought, though. And let me make sure I understand your idea fully:
351 2011-06-11 02:05:15 m00p has joined
352 2011-06-11 02:05:22 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: +5 block chain split happens and the mining pool... does what? Refuses to build on the new chain or just stops mining entirely?
353 2011-06-11 02:06:30 Incitatus has joined
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355 2011-06-11 02:07:22 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
356 2011-06-11 02:07:22 <gavinandresen> (also, it is late on a Friday night here, not a great time for me to be thinking about the very CORE of how bitcoin works...)
357 2011-06-11 02:07:22 Moonies has joined
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360 2011-06-11 02:10:17 ajf is now known as ajf|offline
361 2011-06-11 02:10:19 <spitteler> 9pm is late on a friday?
362 2011-06-11 02:10:25 <spitteler> ;)
363 2011-06-11 02:10:46 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen, I mean that mining client should stop mining in this case.
364 2011-06-11 02:11:33 <gavinandresen> Ah, got it-- not the mining pool detecting the split, but the miners. Sorry, brain is slow right now
365 2011-06-11 02:11:42 <[Tycho]> Yes, that's the point
366 2011-06-11 02:11:55 apsoa has joined
367 2011-06-11 02:12:06 <[Tycho]> So the pool or someone who takes over the pool can't do some of bad things.
368 2011-06-11 02:12:14 apsoa1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
369 2011-06-11 02:13:06 <gavinandresen> comments posted.
370 2011-06-11 02:13:26 <[Tycho]> Thanks :)
371 2011-06-11 02:16:44 eao has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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379 2011-06-11 02:23:56 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
380 2011-06-11 02:24:36 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I bet miners care more about their income than stopping in case someone tries to do something ugly
381 2011-06-11 02:24:38 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], do you realize that deepbit is probably the single largest concentration of computing power in the history of the world?
382 2011-06-11 02:24:41 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], lulz
383 2011-06-11 02:24:53 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: miner authors implementing this would be opposing the will of their users
384 2011-06-11 02:25:15 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
385 2011-06-11 02:25:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: and it wouldn't solve the 50% problem
386 2011-06-11 02:25:57 <luke-jr> just one small part of it
387 2011-06-11 02:26:11 Lachesis has joined
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389 2011-06-11 02:37:23 <jgarzik> darbsllim: nobody knows who owns mybitcoin.com
390 2011-06-11 02:37:27 <jgarzik> they are very mysterious
391 2011-06-11 02:39:28 sanity has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
392 2011-06-11 02:41:10 Astrohacker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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398 2011-06-11 02:43:54 CSpitteler is now known as spitteler
399 2011-06-11 02:44:26 ben36 has joined
400 2011-06-11 02:45:33 lebish_zz is now known as lebish
401 2011-06-11 02:47:11 <darbsllim> jgarzik srsly I thought it was one of the main devs?
402 2011-06-11 02:49:16 <spitteler> MYBITCOIN LLC is a registered legal corporate entity of Nevis, West Indies
403 2011-06-11 02:49:41 <darbsllim> west indies
404 2011-06-11 02:49:47 <spq> hm, i know who owns mybitcoin.de but that wont help, i think :)
405 2011-06-11 02:49:49 <darbsllim> spitteler you're good
406 2011-06-11 02:50:34 <darbsllim> oh nm
407 2011-06-11 02:50:38 <darbsllim> http://whois.domaintools.com/mybitcoin.com
408 2011-06-11 02:50:44 <darbsllim> he doens't even have a privacy guard
409 2011-06-11 02:50:47 <darbsllim> Tom Williams
410 2011-06-11 02:50:51 <darbsllim> his phone numbers there too
411 2011-06-11 02:51:12 <spq> why should one want such a privacy guard?
412 2011-06-11 02:51:18 noagendamarket has joined
413 2011-06-11 02:51:20 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
414 2011-06-11 02:51:23 <spitteler> PO Box 556 is listed as Morning Star Holdings LLC as well
415 2011-06-11 02:52:24 <spitteler> so, that whois info is probably just Morning Star Holdings
416 2011-06-11 02:52:36 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
417 2011-06-11 02:52:49 <spq> im currently in contact with a lawyer which checks through if its allowed - and under which conditions - to start a trading site like mtgox and others
418 2011-06-11 02:53:30 <spq> so, why should one, who does equal stuff want a priv. guard?
419 2011-06-11 02:53:50 hisdudeness has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
420 2011-06-11 02:53:56 <spitteler> many reasons spq first of which is probably spam
421 2011-06-11 02:55:04 <spq> well, ill always use an special spam email for the whois data...
422 2011-06-11 02:55:23 dvide has quit ()
423 2011-06-11 02:55:34 <spq> and on the page itself, an image for users who want to contact
424 2011-06-11 02:56:33 <spq> well if its a registered company who provides the service on the belonging page, it most probably is required to have right information in the whois db
425 2011-06-11 02:57:19 ben36 has quit (Quit: ben36)
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437 2011-06-11 03:10:50 <darbsllim> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/01/12/4
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447 2011-06-11 03:17:45 <Wuked> Can anyone give me guidance on how to work out my pools hash rate using pushpool ?
448 2011-06-11 03:17:55 <sec^nd> hello
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467 2011-06-11 03:40:08 <io_error> Did somebody call me?
468 2011-06-11 03:40:13 normanrichards has joined
469 2011-06-11 03:40:37 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
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474 2011-06-11 03:42:35 Cherothald is now known as Fabianius
475 2011-06-11 03:44:26 <jgarzik> io_error: yes
476 2011-06-11 03:44:38 <jgarzik> io_error: what is this "major bug" you claim on twitter?
477 2011-06-11 03:45:01 <jgarzik> Wuked: 1 share == 2**32 hashes
478 2011-06-11 03:45:29 <Wuked> O.K thanks
479 2011-06-11 03:45:51 Fabianius has quit (Client Quit)
480 2011-06-11 03:46:23 <lorph> whats the target difficulty for 1 share
481 2011-06-11 03:46:57 <lorph> why does deepbit give me a target difficulty of ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000 while my bitcoind getwork is something different
482 2011-06-11 03:47:20 <jgarzik> lorph: pools give out easier shares. see #bitcoin-mining for more details.
483 2011-06-11 03:50:58 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
484 2011-06-11 03:51:42 Cherothald has joined
485 2011-06-11 03:51:52 Cherothald is now known as Fabianius
486 2011-06-11 03:52:18 <Zarutian> ;;help
487 2011-06-11 03:52:19 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
488 2011-06-11 03:52:30 <Zarutian> ;;bc,blocks
489 2011-06-11 03:52:30 <gribble> 129934
490 2011-06-11 03:52:51 Fabianius is now known as Cherothald
491 2011-06-11 03:53:11 jjjrmy_ has joined
492 2011-06-11 03:53:13 <jjjrmy_> hey
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505 2011-06-11 04:04:53 <io_error> jgarzik: I haven't claimed any major bug on Twitter?
506 2011-06-11 04:05:36 <jgarzik> io_error: are you not 'ioerror' Jacob Applebaum?
507 2011-06-11 04:05:47 <io_error> jgarzik: No, and I never have been :)
508 2011-06-11 04:05:58 <jgarzik> io_error: OK, then my apologies for bothering you :)
509 2011-06-11 04:06:08 <io_error> He doesn't have an underscore in his nick :)
510 2011-06-11 04:06:20 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
511 2011-06-11 04:07:29 Cherothald has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
512 2011-06-11 04:07:30 qew has joined
513 2011-06-11 04:09:13 <qew> anyone can explain how to use bitcoins on a website?
514 2011-06-11 04:09:23 <qew> like to load them in and out of an account
515 2011-06-11 04:10:08 <jgarzik> qew: try the forums
516 2011-06-11 04:10:21 <qew> k
517 2011-06-11 04:10:22 <jgarzik> qew: or #bitcoin
518 2011-06-11 04:10:59 <qew> im asking about bitcoin deveopment for my own website
519 2011-06-11 04:11:10 <jjjrmy_> can someone help me with my site?
520 2011-06-11 04:11:18 <qew> still not the right place?
521 2011-06-11 04:11:25 <F4C3> mmm guess who just made some really good progress on the magento plugin
522 2011-06-11 04:11:26 <F4C3> this guy
523 2011-06-11 04:11:46 <jjjrmy_> qew, I think I can help.
524 2011-06-11 04:11:54 <jjjrmy_> Use a database.
525 2011-06-11 04:12:27 <qew> is this possible on blogger?
526 2011-06-11 04:12:45 <jjjrmy_> no
527 2011-06-11 04:12:47 <qew> heh
528 2011-06-11 04:12:49 <qew> ok
529 2011-06-11 04:13:17 <qew> i need my own host? or server then..
530 2011-06-11 04:13:51 <F4C3> qew, what specifically do you want to do
531 2011-06-11 04:14:02 <jjjrmy_> qew: yes you do
532 2011-06-11 04:14:12 <F4C3> i have a bitcoind hosted service im starting if you need space
533 2011-06-11 04:14:17 <denisx> is there a problem with blkmond and testnet? with normal everything works fine but when I switch to testnet it will not work
534 2011-06-11 04:15:15 <jjjrmy_> bitcond hosting service?
535 2011-06-11 04:15:22 <qew> i want do build a game or something maybe poker.. that accepts bitcions
536 2011-06-11 04:15:42 <qew> like betco.in or that kamakazee one
537 2011-06-11 04:15:57 <F4C3> jjjrmy, yeah, similar to any other hosted service
538 2011-06-11 04:16:00 <F4C3> it features a controlpanel
539 2011-06-11 04:16:04 <lorph> how do I verify the getwork parameter?
540 2011-06-11 04:16:12 <F4C3> and ways manage and configure the bitcoind service for each user
541 2011-06-11 04:16:21 <jjjrmy_> but what does it do? Never heard of it.
542 2011-06-11 04:16:34 <F4C3> https://www.coindaemon.com
543 2011-06-11 04:16:41 <F4C3> its targeted for ecommerce shop owners
544 2011-06-11 04:16:55 <F4C3> who need an always on payment gateway with which to generate new addresses for customers
545 2011-06-11 04:17:10 <F4C3> instead of trying to point it at their home computer
546 2011-06-11 04:17:13 <jjjrmy_> oh wow, thanks. I really needed that.
547 2011-06-11 04:17:23 qew has left ()
548 2011-06-11 04:17:38 <jgarzik> jjjrmy_: warning -- we don't know who coindaemon.com is, or how much you can trust them with your money.
549 2011-06-11 04:17:50 <jgarzik> it sounds like a great project -- from an unknown with no rep
550 2011-06-11 04:17:58 <jjjrmy_> oh
551 2011-06-11 04:18:01 <F4C3> lol, well i mean i have been releasing a few other projects
552 2011-06-11 04:18:09 <F4C3> that are open source
553 2011-06-11 04:18:15 <jjjrmy_> because right now I'm using MtGox and manually checking if someone sent to my address
554 2011-06-11 04:18:17 <F4C3> garzik has called me out on this before
555 2011-06-11 04:18:24 <F4C3> but no one talks shit about mybitcoin
556 2011-06-11 04:18:57 <jgarzik> F4C3: I do -- scroll up
557 2011-06-11 04:19:01 <F4C3> im a red hat certified engineer, i have a full 9-5 development job, my team and i will release a lot more info when we are ready for productlaunch
558 2011-06-11 04:19:24 <jgarzik> F4C3: owners of mybitcoin are total unknowns, registered in Nevis
559 2011-06-11 04:19:38 <F4C3> that is scary
560 2011-06-11 04:19:44 <jjjrmy_> anyone think they can help me with my site? To make it better? So I don't have to manually check for payments, etc.
561 2011-06-11 04:19:45 <jgarzik> yes
562 2011-06-11 04:19:53 <F4C3> and i totally understand concerns about identity
563 2011-06-11 04:19:58 <jgarzik> F4C3: mybitcoin has been getting less responsive and more flaky as time goes on
564 2011-06-11 04:20:04 <jgarzik> F4C3: ...hence my heightened concern :)
565 2011-06-11 04:20:04 minemoney is now known as minemoney`
566 2011-06-11 04:20:12 <F4C3> let me know what i can do to prove my identity beyond just saying im smith brown
567 2011-06-11 04:20:15 <jgarzik> F4C3: it's nothing personal. I asked the same questions of TradeHill
568 2011-06-11 04:20:19 Lorenz has joined
569 2011-06-11 04:20:44 <jgarzik> F4C3: we have also had total unknowns show up, and simply steal wallets / money
570 2011-06-11 04:20:48 <F4C3> out in the open: we aren't going to advertise/launch until we finalize the rpc over ssl feature of the control panel
571 2011-06-11 04:20:58 <ultrafluf> now that RH doesn't exist anymore as it used to how much value do you put to your certification?
572 2011-06-11 04:21:07 <F4C3> still waffling on whether or not to generate the ssl certs via php exec() or try and use php's openssl libs
573 2011-06-11 04:21:14 <jgarzik> ultrafluf: RH continues to thrive and prosper
574 2011-06-11 04:21:17 <F4C3> lol RH is still huge bro
575 2011-06-11 04:21:32 <ultrafluf> rea;;y
576 2011-06-11 04:21:35 <F4C3> RHEL is running on atleast 65% or more of all websites you visisted today
577 2011-06-11 04:21:35 <ultrafluf> really*
578 2011-06-11 04:21:50 <ultrafluf> i visited google and wiki
579 2011-06-11 04:22:15 <F4C3> my only loss of value so far is the fact that RHEL 6 is out and im cert for 5, when 7 comes out i will be defunct and need anew cert
580 2011-06-11 04:22:18 <ultrafluf> i never liked rh, but i like that you call it rhel
581 2011-06-11 04:22:57 <F4C3> its for a reason, technically rh and rhel are different
582 2011-06-11 04:23:22 <F4C3> servers that i manage that run rhel 5 have system uptimes in the 2year+ range
583 2011-06-11 04:23:29 <ultrafluf> i was just referring to the hel part really i am sure they are new and improved if they are still making stuff
584 2011-06-11 04:23:32 <ultrafluf> hm
585 2011-06-11 04:23:38 <ultrafluf> i forgot what was that other one called
586 2011-06-11 04:23:49 <ultrafluf> was it fedora?
587 2011-06-11 04:23:56 <F4C3> there is centos which is almost equal to rhel, and then there is fedora
588 2011-06-11 04:24:02 <F4C3> which spun off after rh swtiched to rhel i think
589 2011-06-11 04:24:07 <ultrafluf> yes
590 2011-06-11 04:24:10 jjjrmy_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
591 2011-06-11 04:24:13 <jgarzik> centos is dying... Scientific Linux is the preferred rebuild, IIRC
592 2011-06-11 04:24:13 DrewSJ has joined
593 2011-06-11 04:24:19 <F4C3> dirty secret, i run debian and ubuntu when i can
594 2011-06-11 04:24:25 <ultrafluf> :>
595 2011-06-11 04:24:34 <ultrafluf> i like you more already
596 2011-06-11 04:24:40 <F4C3> mostly cause i need php 5.3.x for EVERYTHING, and its a mother fucker getting that on centos
597 2011-06-11 04:25:01 <ultrafluf> i don't have much experience with centos other than putting in a password and typing vim in a console
598 2011-06-11 04:25:45 davex_r has joined
599 2011-06-11 04:26:05 <F4C3> so jgarzik, how would you recommend i go about improving my WoT
600 2011-06-11 04:26:45 hereforfun has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
601 2011-06-11 04:27:19 <ultrafluf> but when i started trying out all kinds of penguins, admitedly a long time ago and probably no longer a valid reference point, i caught a glimpse of the special hell created by rpm based systems and that is to this day still putting me off of them
602 2011-06-11 04:27:24 Slix` has joined
603 2011-06-11 04:27:35 <ultrafluf> whats a wot?
604 2011-06-11 04:27:39 <F4C3> haha indeed
605 2011-06-11 04:27:44 <F4C3> oh, web of trust
606 2011-06-11 04:28:09 <F4C3> its still new to me, we spend so much time hiding ourselves onilne that to knowingly go out andprove your identity, is strange
607 2011-06-11 04:28:41 <ultrafluf> yep
608 2011-06-11 04:28:48 <ultrafluf> and still the web of trust doesn't really change that
609 2011-06-11 04:28:57 <F4C3> i agree
610 2011-06-11 04:29:22 <ultrafluf> all it can identify is that you are thte person that originally made the 'person' and theres a trackrecord of trades
611 2011-06-11 04:29:31 <ultrafluf> as in good or not
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615 2011-06-11 04:30:10 <ultrafluf> thing is somehow you have to bootstrap from going from nothing to recognition
616 2011-06-11 04:30:19 Astrohacker has joined
617 2011-06-11 04:30:22 <ultrafluf> where as new accounts are ofc untrusted still since they haven't proven themselves
618 2011-06-11 04:30:25 <ultrafluf> :>
619 2011-06-11 04:30:29 <ultrafluf> everyone can make one after all
620 2011-06-11 04:30:30 <F4C3> also true
621 2011-06-11 04:30:43 <F4C3> especially in a market where scamming seems to be way too common
622 2011-06-11 04:30:49 <F4C3> also new tome
623 2011-06-11 04:31:14 <F4C3> heh, its safe to say that there are more people looking to rip you off on bitcoin than there are local dealers trying to short you, amirite
624 2011-06-11 04:31:24 <jgarzik> F4C3: I would just describe [on the forums, not to me] who you are, and talk about the security of your setup. Basically, the first step is to indicate that you are not trying to hide, are not fly-by-night, and seem to have thought through the problems.
625 2011-06-11 04:31:25 <ultrafluf> i don't know
626 2011-06-11 04:31:27 <ultrafluf> it's easier
627 2011-06-11 04:31:39 <ultrafluf> to do it online
628 2011-06-11 04:31:46 <jgarzik> F4C3: your initial forum posts were very skimpy on details, for what is essentially remote banking
629 2011-06-11 04:32:06 <ultrafluf> but i don't know how much protection it gives against things like well what google knows as link farms
630 2011-06-11 04:32:12 <F4C3> jgarzik, thats a good point. my thinking at the time was, i only wanted eager beta testers, so i didnt want to broadcast it quite yet
631 2011-06-11 04:32:45 <ultrafluf> then again it's also important to have real posts and such so i guess it's somewhat mitigated
632 2011-06-11 04:32:52 <ultrafluf> but a new user might walk into one
633 2011-06-11 04:33:58 <jgarzik> F4C3: FWIW, in the interests of full disclosure, I put a lot of time and research into a bitcoind hosting service, a couple months ago.
634 2011-06-11 04:34:17 <jgarzik> F4C3: regulatory issues scared me away, ultimately
635 2011-06-11 04:34:23 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
636 2011-06-11 04:34:45 <jgarzik> https://xf2.org/ was going to be pool and bitcoind hosting
637 2011-06-11 04:34:59 <denisx> ;,bc,gend 350000 77
638 2011-06-11 04:35:10 <denisx> ;;bc,gend 350000 77
639 2011-06-11 04:35:10 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 350000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 77, is 4571.94718448 BTC per day and 190.497799353 BTC per hour.
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643 2011-06-11 04:35:43 <lorph> jgarzik: in your poold why do you need to reverse the getwork buffer and then later do a buffer reverse and word reverse?
644 2011-06-11 04:35:50 <F4C3> nice, concerning the regulatory issues, we were discussing whether we should get an LLC sooner rather than later, and pickin gup a lawyer along the way
645 2011-06-11 04:36:15 apsoa has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
646 2011-06-11 04:36:27 <jgarzik> lorph: because that is what is required for bitcoin
647 2011-06-11 04:36:30 <F4C3> i see the concerns regarding currency, but since BTC isnt a govt recognized currency, i wasnt sure if the same laws that apply to USD banking would even apply
648 2011-06-11 04:36:49 <F4C3> i highly doubt second life people are nearly as covered as we planto be
649 2011-06-11 04:37:07 <jgarzik> F4C3: in the US, at present bitcoin is roughly "stored value", akin to iTunes credits, Facebook points, ... They are covered by money transmitter laws
650 2011-06-11 04:37:39 <jgarzik> F4C3: my research did not indicate that you needed to register as an MSB to do bitcoind hosting...
651 2011-06-11 04:37:46 <jgarzik> F4C3: ...but as always, consult your legal counsel.
652 2011-06-11 04:37:55 <F4C3> so, safe to say that "gift card" laws apply to it, if i wanted to reach out to a consultant?
653 2011-06-11 04:38:20 <jgarzik> F4C3: the main concern was largely about holding people's assets uninsured + the liability _when_ (not 'if') someone sues you due to a bitcoind crash or problem
654 2011-06-11 04:38:38 underscor has joined
655 2011-06-11 04:38:42 <jgarzik> F4C3: yes, gift cards are a subset of "stored value"
656 2011-06-11 04:38:44 <F4C3> haha, what is funny though, you and i, we are looking to be PCI compliant, yada yada yada, but Sony, heh they don't need to follow any laws and they store CC numbers for god sake
657 2011-06-11 04:38:56 <jgarzik> F4C3: f*cked, isn't it?
658 2011-06-11 04:39:34 backwardation25 has joined
659 2011-06-11 04:39:39 <F4C3> it is, jgarzik, honestly, just now you tellin gme that i will be sued, at some point, is starting to make me waffle
660 2011-06-11 04:39:42 <lorph> jgarzik: it seems like a waste of cycles with no security benefit
661 2011-06-11 04:39:51 <F4C3> ive got soo much on my plate, going to court is the last thing i need to spendmy time on
662 2011-06-11 04:39:59 <jgarzik> F4C3: for xf2.org, I had drafted several CYA statements like "I acknowledge bitcoins are experimental and risky" etc.
663 2011-06-11 04:40:48 Slix` has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
664 2011-06-11 04:41:00 <jgarzik> F4C3: I think bitcoind hosting is a great idea and an urgent need for merchants -- but you gotta cover your legal ass, because you're basically a bank vault
665 2011-06-11 04:42:23 <Kireji> jgarzik: just do not call it a bank, like paypal
666 2011-06-11 04:42:52 <Kireji> F4C3: I've been weughing the idea of a bitcoin "bank" against other ideas
667 2011-06-11 04:43:08 <Kireji> bank^H^H^H bitcoind hosting
668 2011-06-11 04:43:17 <F4C3> will do
669 2011-06-11 04:43:41 <F4C3> thanks jgarzik, ill be afk, but i would like to get a bit more advice from you in the future
670 2011-06-11 04:44:03 <Kireji> F4C3: as for above, incorporate as soon as possible
671 2011-06-11 04:44:27 <Kireji> it almost always reduces chance of disagreement and fractionalization of the team
672 2011-06-11 04:44:57 <jgarzik> Kireji: paypal still has miles of regulatory red tape. they register as an MSB/MT in all states + fed.
673 2011-06-11 04:45:25 <Kireji> true, but are not covered by banking regs
674 2011-06-11 04:45:49 <Kireji> jgarzik: the real reason I gave up on the banking idea was it was technologically hard
675 2011-06-11 04:46:01 <jgarzik> IMO the tech is easy :)
676 2011-06-11 04:46:03 <jgarzik> F4C3: sure thing
677 2011-06-11 04:46:19 <Kireji> hmmm
678 2011-06-11 04:46:57 <Kireji> the issue I see is a social one. people in the organization will figure out right quick they can get all the private keys and walk away will all the money in the bank on a usb drive
679 2011-06-11 04:47:09 <Kireji> "money" and "bank" as analogies
680 2011-06-11 04:47:47 <Kireji> given the structure of accounting, controllers, CFO, etc all built up in large orgs, I don't see the same structures working for bitcoins in large orgs
681 2011-06-11 04:48:51 <Kireji> there is still a lot of development work needed to make that work and prevent human nature from walking away with all the private keys
682 2011-06-11 04:49:09 <Namegduf> There's solutions.
683 2011-06-11 04:49:27 <Namegduf> You can keep the private keys in a non-electronic form that's hard to use for money not used on a day to day basis.
684 2011-06-11 04:49:41 sanity has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
685 2011-06-11 04:50:20 <Kireji> or you could break up tyeh wallets into smaller denominations, then split and encrypt the parts in separate places, etc
686 2011-06-11 04:50:36 <Kireji> sure there are ways
687 2011-06-11 04:51:21 sanity has joined
688 2011-06-11 04:51:38 <Kireji> but imagine microsoft, apple, oracle, ibm - image these orgs no longer using dollars, instead using bitcoins. how would that work? could it? I don't know
689 2011-06-11 04:52:14 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
690 2011-06-11 04:52:15 <Kireji> much of the systems we have in place depend on reversibility and tracability for large transfers
691 2011-06-11 04:55:27 ar4s has joined
692 2011-06-11 04:56:20 <blishchrot> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110605/22322814558
693 2011-06-11 04:56:32 <ultrafluf> i understand why reversibility could be an issue in case of a problem and they don't want to give your money back
694 2011-06-11 04:57:09 Lachesis has joined
695 2011-06-11 04:57:11 <ultrafluf> but as what tracability is conserned iono if that's important, everyone can see it
696 2011-06-11 04:57:39 <blishchrot> this channel was an unintended recipient
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711 2011-06-11 05:16:18 <x5x> so does that appelbaum guy actually have a legit bug or is he just being a douche ?
712 2011-06-11 05:16:32 <Diablo-D3> with a name like that, who knows
713 2011-06-11 05:17:13 <upb> he might have, has found a bunch of bugs in the past
714 2011-06-11 05:20:08 <jgarzik> x5x: I just confirmed: he is 100% fact-free
715 2011-06-11 05:20:16 <jgarzik> x5x: pinged gavin
716 2011-06-11 05:20:39 <jgarzik> as of this minute, anyway
717 2011-06-11 05:23:45 Lorenz has joined
718 2011-06-11 05:24:17 <Diablo-D3> who is?
719 2011-06-11 05:25:27 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: scroll up 6 lines
720 2011-06-11 05:25:39 <Diablo-D3> yeah but who is he?
721 2011-06-11 05:25:45 <Diablo-D3> and what did he say?
722 2011-06-11 05:26:42 BaltarNZ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
723 2011-06-11 05:26:59 XX01XX has joined
724 2011-06-11 05:27:36 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: Tor non-coding geek. http://twitter.com/#!/ioerror/status/78480502641803264
725 2011-06-11 05:27:46 BaltarNZ has joined
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727 2011-06-11 05:28:50 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: erm
728 2011-06-11 05:28:54 <Diablo-D3> as far as I can tell
729 2011-06-11 05:28:58 <Diablo-D3> all hes saying is
730 2011-06-11 05:29:03 <Diablo-D3> stupid people effect the market
731 2011-06-11 05:29:05 <Diablo-D3> BIG WHOOP
732 2011-06-11 05:29:12 <Diablo-D3> rich people make billions off stupid people every year in the market
733 2011-06-11 05:29:17 <Diablo-D3> hows bitcoin any different
734 2011-06-11 05:30:13 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
735 2011-06-11 05:31:12 apsoa has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
736 2011-06-11 05:31:29 <Namegduf> "Bitcoin prediction: Major bugs in the near future will mess with the "market""
737 2011-06-11 05:31:35 <Namegduf> There is literally no way to predict this.
738 2011-06-11 05:32:37 thedrs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
739 2011-06-11 05:34:05 Clarence has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
740 2011-06-11 05:34:27 <lfm> Namegduf: unless you intoduced the bugs yourself
741 2011-06-11 05:34:50 <Namegduf> Or found them, yeah
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749 2011-06-11 05:41:16 <x5x> good to know
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789 2011-06-11 06:31:23 <oclCoder> i'm looking to help develop some of the GPU based bitcoin miners, would this be the correct place to inquire? or would another channel be prefered?
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801 2011-06-11 06:37:30 mvillmow is now known as oclCoder
802 2011-06-11 06:37:46 <oclCoder> Ok, stupid crashing irc software, anyways, back to my original question.
803 2011-06-11 06:37:55 <oclCoder> i'm looking to help develop some of the GPU based bitcoin miners, would this be the correct place to inquire? or would another channel be prefered?
804 2011-06-11 06:38:30 <io_error> Probably best to contact the author of whatever miner you want to work on.
805 2011-06-11 06:39:35 gsathya has joined
806 2011-06-11 06:39:51 <oclCoder> do any happen to be in this room? :)
807 2011-06-11 06:41:34 <spitteler> try #bitcoin-mining for mining support
808 2011-06-11 06:41:41 <oclCoder> ok, thanks
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813 2011-06-11 06:52:52 <Raccoon> could someone explain confirmations to me?
814 2011-06-11 06:53:08 <Raccoon> i can't imagine the client downloads the entire database from each node it connects to
815 2011-06-11 06:53:26 <Raccoon> do clients just request the most recent blocks? or blocks it has done trades in?
816 2011-06-11 06:53:51 <Taveren93HGK> good question
817 2011-06-11 06:54:28 <Raccoon> i was told that bitcoin is a broadcast-only network. there are never any requests or queries
818 2011-06-11 06:54:33 <Raccoon> i can't belive that to be so.
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820 2011-06-11 06:56:29 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: confirmations are a count of how many blocks have come after the block that initially confirmed your transaction.
821 2011-06-11 06:56:53 <Raccoon> huh.
822 2011-06-11 06:56:54 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: every block confirms all of the blocks before itâ each amplifying the computationally difficulty of reversing the transaction.
823 2011-06-11 06:57:04 <Raccoon> ok
824 2011-06-11 06:57:18 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
825 2011-06-11 06:57:28 <Raccoon> so if TX1 has 500 confirmations and TX2 has 501 confirmations
826 2011-06-11 06:57:35 <Raccoon> TX2 will always be +1 ahead
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828 2011-06-11 06:57:53 <gmaxwell> then tx2 was in an earlier block (the one right before the one with TX1). And yes exactly.
829 2011-06-11 06:58:05 <Raccoon> alright. that makes sense. thanks.
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831 2011-06-11 06:58:19 <Raccoon> i thought confirmations were 'how many nodes repeat the same story'
832 2011-06-11 06:58:37 <Raccoon> so its a little misleading.
833 2011-06-11 06:58:45 <Raccoon> esp with the P2P theme
834 2011-06-11 06:58:46 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin's security is based on this block chain concept instead of "how many did I hear it from", becaus the latter is highly vulnerable to sybil attack. (I could start up hundreds of 'nodes' on my laptop...)
835 2011-06-11 06:59:05 <Raccoon> aye
836 2011-06-11 06:59:39 <Raccoon> well, a client could count IP/16 as unique confirmations
837 2011-06-11 07:00:04 <gmaxwell> Yes, and I could personally fake that out pretty easily (but fewer people could do that easily)
838 2011-06-11 07:00:24 <Raccoon> but i get your point.
839 2011-06-11 07:00:33 <Raccoon> just not sure if 'confirmation' is the best word
840 2011-06-11 07:01:02 <gmaxwell> It isâ every block confirms all the prior blocks just as much as it confirms the transactions in that block)
841 2011-06-11 07:01:14 <Raccoon> if you're talking MITM attack
842 2011-06-11 07:01:28 <Raccoon> it should be just as easy to lie to a client and unconfirm that entire block chain
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845 2011-06-11 07:01:53 <gmaxwell> Someone who can MITM your network connetion could pretend to be as many nodes as he wanted even with topology constraints like /16 filtering.
846 2011-06-11 07:01:59 <gmaxwell> And a MITM can't do that with bitcoin.
847 2011-06-11 07:02:11 <gmaxwell> Not without having significant hashpower.
848 2011-06-11 07:02:52 <gmaxwell> A confirmation in bitcoin represents real expensive work. It can't be faked.
849 2011-06-11 07:02:59 <Raccoon> hmm
850 2011-06-11 07:03:08 <Raccoon> how is difficulty adhered to?
851 2011-06-11 07:03:10 linagee has joined
852 2011-06-11 07:03:32 <linagee> ack. 0.3.22 still has a weird sized text box when I click "New..."
853 2011-06-11 07:03:46 <linagee> (the input text box is like 2 pixels high)
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855 2011-06-11 07:04:01 <gmaxwell> It's just a determinstic formulaâ basically time distance between the two ends of a span of 2016 blocks is taken and compared to two weeks.
856 2011-06-11 07:04:06 <linagee> this is in the windows client using windows 7
857 2011-06-11 07:04:39 <Raccoon> gmaxwell: so the client verifies that the blocks pass difficulty test
858 2011-06-11 07:04:39 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: all nodes enforce difficulty based on the prior blocks, so a MITM can't change difficulty without.. wait for it... hashpower. :)
859 2011-06-11 07:04:44 <Raccoon> ok
860 2011-06-11 07:04:45 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: yes.
861 2011-06-11 07:04:53 <gmaxwell> Every node validates _everything_
862 2011-06-11 07:05:05 <Raccoon> and creating blocks with timestamps farther apart only creates a lesser block chain
863 2011-06-11 07:05:20 <gmaxwell> They validate the miners aren't paything themselves too much, that the TXNs aren't spending money that didn't exist, that the difficulty is real, etc.
864 2011-06-11 07:05:47 <Raccoon> ok
865 2011-06-11 07:06:14 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: there are limits on what timestamps the network will accept. You can't claim to make a block further from the past than the median of the last 11 or more than 2 hours in the future. So your ability to twiddle difficulty by lying about the time is limited.
866 2011-06-11 07:06:18 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
867 2011-06-11 07:06:34 <gmaxwell> (unless..... yes, hashpower :) )
868 2011-06-11 07:06:38 Lorenz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
869 2011-06-11 07:06:44 <Raccoon> can you lie about the time of a block you just hashed (the most current block)
870 2011-06-11 07:07:01 <Raccoon> to break the odds of a tie with someone else
871 2011-06-11 07:07:15 <gmaxwell> Those timestamps aren't used to resolve ties.
872 2011-06-11 07:07:26 <Raccoon> then what is
873 2011-06-11 07:07:31 <Raccoon> first come first build-off-of?
874 2011-06-11 07:07:46 <gmaxwell> Yes. and ultimatly the longest _chain_ wins.
875 2011-06-11 07:07:53 <Raccoon> no, there is no longest chain
876 2011-06-11 07:07:53 <linagee> Raccoon: what if you DOS the person who sends you the fact a new block is on the network, then try to claim that new block as fast as you can to the rest of the network? or would that even work.
877 2011-06-11 07:07:55 <Raccoon> they are tie
878 2011-06-11 07:08:20 <Raccoon> how do i, a drone bee, determine which solution to continue working onto
879 2011-06-11 07:08:24 <gmaxwell> So if you build a block and I build a block at the same time, whichever of us gets extended the most will be the victor. Every is always switching to the longest chain (helps their own chances)
880 2011-06-11 07:08:47 <Raccoon> that's not answering the question though
881 2011-06-11 07:08:50 <linagee> gmaxwell: can you artificially make the blocks bigger?
882 2011-06-11 07:08:56 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: Bitcoin provides eventual consistency not instant consistency.
883 2011-06-11 07:08:56 <Raccoon> how do i help improve the odds that mine gets extended the most?
884 2011-06-11 07:09:02 <Raccoon> do i bribe others?
885 2011-06-11 07:09:20 <gmaxwell> linagee: Bigger how? which blocks?
886 2011-06-11 07:09:29 <linagee> gmaxwell: bah. n/m
887 2011-06-11 07:09:34 <Raccoon> if you build a block and i build a block
888 2011-06-11 07:09:41 <Raccoon> and someone else sees both
889 2011-06-11 07:09:44 <Raccoon> which does he choose
890 2011-06-11 07:10:05 <linagee> the better looking block. :)
891 2011-06-11 07:10:15 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: then the network will be temporarily split. Some people will work on one some on another depending on which they heard first (which depends more on topology than anything else if its a real tie)
892 2011-06-11 07:10:24 <Raccoon> ok
893 2011-06-11 07:10:29 <Raccoon> so it's first come first serve
894 2011-06-11 07:10:34 <gmaxwell> Well not quite.
895 2011-06-11 07:10:43 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
896 2011-06-11 07:10:44 <Raccoon> as far as which one the worker bees will work from
897 2011-06-11 07:10:49 <linagee> gmaxwell: what if you DOS everyone on the other side of the tie to try to get your block accepted?
898 2011-06-11 07:10:58 <Raccoon> and its up to whoever has the most workerbees on their side of the network
899 2011-06-11 07:11:00 <gmaxwell> It's locally first come first serve. But the overall network is not consistent in that case. At that moment both blocks are possible winners.
900 2011-06-11 07:11:12 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: And lots of luck.
901 2011-06-11 07:11:16 <Raccoon> gmaxwell
902 2011-06-11 07:11:18 <Raccoon> in other words
903 2011-06-11 07:11:24 <gmaxwell> You can have one worker bee and manage to extent a block.
904 2011-06-11 07:11:32 <Raccoon> establishing a connection to as many nodes, as diversly as possible
905 2011-06-11 07:11:39 <Raccoon> will give my solutions a better chance at survival
906 2011-06-11 07:11:48 <Raccoon> since i will have broadcast them faster than the next guy
907 2011-06-11 07:11:56 <Raccoon> if there is ever a collision
908 2011-06-11 07:12:00 <gmaxwell> Marginally, though keep in mind that ties are pretty rare. The whole network only solves 1 block per ten minutes on average.
909 2011-06-11 07:12:12 <linagee> does the wallet by default try to maintain a certain number of connections? it never seems to get higher than 7 or so
910 2011-06-11 07:12:19 <Raccoon> gmaxwell: how many minutes of lag are possible
911 2011-06-11 07:12:27 <gmaxwell> <1% orphaned blocks (finished blocks that don't make it into the longst chain)
912 2011-06-11 07:12:44 <Raccoon> 0.5% is still a whole lot.
913 2011-06-11 07:13:13 <gmaxwell> You think so? Most people mine on a pool that charges them 3% right off the top.
914 2011-06-11 07:13:18 <Raccoon> that's like 650 blocks to ate
915 2011-06-11 07:13:30 <Raccoon> *date
916 2011-06-11 07:13:36 <gmaxwell> Eligius has had a grand total of two orphan blocked now for example.
917 2011-06-11 07:13:57 <linagee> ;;calc 650 * 23.3
918 2011-06-11 07:13:58 <gribble> 650 * 23.3 = 15,145
919 2011-06-11 07:14:01 <gmaxwell> But yes, having better connectivity would reduce orphans.
920 2011-06-11 07:14:12 <linagee> Raccoon: $15,145 USD lost value to "the ether" :)
921 2011-06-11 07:14:24 <gmaxwell> linagee: add a factor of 50.
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923 2011-06-11 07:14:41 <linagee> gmaxwell: ack
924 2011-06-11 07:14:46 <linagee> gmaxwell: er, times 50. :)
925 2011-06-11 07:14:49 <gmaxwell> But it's not lost. The other block that won replaced it.
926 2011-06-11 07:15:01 <linagee> ;;calc 650 * 50 * 23.3
927 2011-06-11 07:15:01 <Raccoon> linagee has only been charging the network 1BTC per block solved
928 2011-06-11 07:15:01 <gribble> 650 * 50 * 23.3 = 757,250
929 2011-06-11 07:15:05 <Raccoon> the network hasn't complained yet
930 2011-06-11 07:15:09 <linagee> Raccoon: oops. :)
931 2011-06-11 07:15:23 <gmaxwell> And even if the blocks were sequential, more solved would mean faster higher difficulty steps.
932 2011-06-11 07:15:25 <linagee> $757,250 :)
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934 2011-06-11 07:15:55 <gmaxwell> So the orphans don't actually change the overall amount of coin at all.
935 2011-06-11 07:16:00 <linagee> (out of the very theoretical $150 million USD)
936 2011-06-11 07:16:27 underscor has joined
937 2011-06-11 07:17:13 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: Have you read the original bitcoin paper? It's pretty good IMO.
938 2011-06-11 07:18:23 <Raccoon> i don't want to pollute my perception and innovative capabilities by weighing myself down with the knowledge of what has already been done :p
939 2011-06-11 07:19:58 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: ah, then you ought not talk to me anymore!
940 2011-06-11 07:20:09 <Raccoon> heh
941 2011-06-11 07:20:23 <Raccoon> i haven't read any of this original thesis
942 2011-06-11 07:20:32 <Raccoon> just most of the wiki
943 2011-06-11 07:21:50 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
944 2011-06-11 07:21:57 <gmaxwell> You should, it covers a lot of core concepts the other technical stuff assumes you know. http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf It doesn't cover any of the details of the actual implementation though.
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994 2011-06-11 08:32:31 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Han Lin Yap master * rb734954 / locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.po : Added Swedish translation - http://bit.ly/ml88bY
995 2011-06-11 08:32:32 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r18e3930 / locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.po :
996 2011-06-11 08:32:32 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Merge pull request #311 from codler/master
997 2011-06-11 08:32:32 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Added Swedish translation - http://bit.ly/iFIu8T
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1014 2011-06-11 08:53:18 <aristidesfl> can someone explain me why some transactions have multiple from and to addresses
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1020 2011-06-11 08:56:12 <xelister> what ever happened to artfotz
1021 2011-06-11 08:57:24 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1022 2011-06-11 08:57:48 <xelister> fuck ubuntu
1023 2011-06-11 08:58:19 pogden has joined
1024 2011-06-11 08:59:27 <xelister> ah here are you are mother fucker /usr/lib/notify-osd/notify-osd
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1029 2011-06-11 09:02:09 diki has joined
1030 2011-06-11 09:02:32 <diki> i want to lookup hashes that had very little nonce used to calculate the hash
1031 2011-06-11 09:03:07 <xelister> diki: browse blockexplorer I guess
1032 2011-06-11 09:03:30 <diki> that requires clicking thru every hash
1033 2011-06-11 09:03:49 <diki> what is the most lowest nonce you've ever seen?
1034 2011-06-11 09:04:37 <aristidesfl> diki: what is nonce?
1035 2011-06-11 09:05:01 <diki> "When generating, Bitcoin starts this number at 1 and increments for each hash attempt."
1036 2011-06-11 09:05:33 <diki> but since most hashes i've seen always had a nonce higher than 100,000,000 i think i want to start from there
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1038 2011-06-11 09:07:25 <xelister> diki: I could make such a list for you for 2 btc
1039 2011-06-11 09:07:47 <aristidesfl> diki: now I would just love to understand why some trasnactions have more that 2 addresses
1040 2011-06-11 09:08:00 <aristidesfl> example: http://goo.gl/Lnr2P
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1042 2011-06-11 09:08:36 <xelister> aristidesfl: send-to-many perhaps?
1043 2011-06-11 09:09:20 <Raccoon> i can't imagine every client starting with a nounce of 1
1044 2011-06-11 09:09:23 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1045 2011-06-11 09:09:28 <Raccoon> that would be just stupid. frankly stupid.
1046 2011-06-11 09:09:38 <aristidesfl> xelister how is that possible?
1047 2011-06-11 09:09:56 <Raccoon> or nonce, whatever
1048 2011-06-11 09:09:58 <xelister> Raccoon: yes, every starts with nonce 1
1049 2011-06-11 09:10:00 <aristidesfl> xelister: shouldn't that be counted as different trasnactions?
1050 2011-06-11 09:10:13 <Raccoon> xelister: i would doubt the writer of that bit of code is retarded.
1051 2011-06-11 09:10:18 <xelister> aristidesfl: no there is option to send to many people at once it seems
1052 2011-06-11 09:10:20 <Raccoon> but you are suggesting they are
1053 2011-06-11 09:10:22 <xelister> Raccoon: no, you are
1054 2011-06-11 09:10:28 <xelister> retarded
1055 2011-06-11 09:10:48 <roconnor> Raccoon: each client is building different block content, so it is okay for them all to start at 1
1056 2011-06-11 09:10:52 <aristidesfl> xelister: what about http://goo.gl/Lnr2P?
1057 2011-06-11 09:11:03 <xelister> now stfu and comprehand that everone starts with nonce 1. But they use other hash space because they have other own-transaction so they calculation do NOT overlap
1058 2011-06-11 09:11:08 <aristidesfl> there are multiple input addresses
1059 2011-06-11 09:11:11 <Raccoon> roconnor: and what if they are not?
1060 2011-06-11 09:11:27 <aristidesfl> xelister: and many of themre the same
1061 2011-06-11 09:11:56 <xelister> aristidesfl: Im not sure but I would guess this is imply using many coins to make one transaction? e.g. to pay 100 btc you need for example input from 2 generations of 50 at least
1062 2011-06-11 09:12:00 <roconnor> Raccoon: the then the two people would be sending their minted coins to the same person.
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1064 2011-06-11 09:12:13 <xelister> yea or that
1065 2011-06-11 09:12:24 <Raccoon> roconnor: what if they are the same person who happens to own more than one computer
1066 2011-06-11 09:12:28 <Raccoon> yes. i said it
1067 2011-06-11 09:12:34 <Raccoon> some people actually own more than one computer
1068 2011-06-11 09:12:38 <Raccoon> shocking
1069 2011-06-11 09:12:54 <xelister> or they use few computers without owning them :o
1070 2011-06-11 09:13:05 <Raccoon> or they operate a pool
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1072 2011-06-11 09:13:20 <aristidesfl> xelister: didn't undestand that one..
1073 2011-06-11 09:13:27 <roconnor> Raccoon: each transaction is sent to a new address by default so if one person was using two computers they would still likely be sending to two different addresses
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1075 2011-06-11 09:14:16 <roconnor> and if you want to send to the same address then (we are far from the default client now) I'd expect you to start with different extranonces but still start the nonce at 1.
1076 2011-06-11 09:14:34 <Raccoon> is it faster for 10 people to guess a number 1-10, or is it faster to assign 10 people a number and they all announce their number at the same time?
1077 2011-06-11 09:15:38 <roconnor> Raccoon: depends on the overhead needed to corrdinate in the second case.
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1079 2011-06-11 09:16:14 <aristidesfl> Raccoon: the first is faster because you don't have to assign numbers
1080 2011-06-11 09:16:54 <roconnor> But yes, if you have a bank of computers and you know you have exactly n of them running in parallel, then it would be slightly faster to assign them each 1/n th of the nonce space to search.
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1082 2011-06-11 09:18:00 <Raccoon> considering that it takes less than 100 ms to assign a number
1083 2011-06-11 09:18:11 <Raccoon> while it takes 10 minutes to find a solution
1084 2011-06-11 09:18:34 <roconnor> Raccoon: the relevent figure is the time it takes to search the entire nonce space rather than the time it takes to find a block.
1085 2011-06-11 09:19:04 <roconnor> once the entire 32-bit nonce space is exhasted you have to start with a new extranonce which means you are esentially starting from scratch again.
1086 2011-06-11 09:19:08 <Raccoon> while each of your computers are searching the entire nonce space with 100% effeciency
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1088 2011-06-11 09:19:47 <Raccoon> rather than 50% of the clients searching the exact same, and 75% of the client searching at least 50% of what other clients have searched, and so on
1089 2011-06-11 09:19:51 <roconnor> wait I take this back
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1091 2011-06-11 09:20:13 <roconnor> the only thing that matters is that two computers don't try the same nonce/extranonce combination twice
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1094 2011-06-11 09:20:35 <Raccoon> yes.
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1097 2011-06-11 09:21:28 <ArdaXi> roconnor: This is talking about a mining pool, right? It's impossible for a miner in a pool to change extranonce.
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1100 2011-06-11 09:21:33 <roconnor> sorry, the 1-10 example threw me off because in that case there is exactly 1 number that needs to be found; but with the nonce problem each number between one and 10 being a winner is uncorrelated.
1101 2011-06-11 09:21:58 <roconnor> *is independent.
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1103 2011-06-11 09:23:18 <roconnor> So there is no issue with ever computer starting at nonce 1
1104 2011-06-11 09:23:38 <roconnor> as long as two computers never use the same extranonce
1105 2011-06-11 09:23:47 <ArdaXi> roconnor: extranonce starts at 0.
1106 2011-06-11 09:23:52 <roconnor> right
1107 2011-06-11 09:23:54 <roconnor> starts at 0
1108 2011-06-11 09:23:55 <ArdaXi> A miner can't change it.
1109 2011-06-11 09:23:58 <roconnor> er
1110 2011-06-11 09:24:03 <ArdaXi> A pool can, but a miner can't.
1111 2011-06-11 09:24:23 <ArdaXi> It's part of the Merkle root.
1112 2011-06-11 09:24:54 <roconnor> ArdaXi: I can only speculate on how pools work since I haven't looked, but presumably each miner in the pool is assigned some sort of unique id that is placed along side their extranonce
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1115 2011-06-11 09:25:22 <ArdaXi> roconnor: I... highly doubt that.
1116 2011-06-11 09:25:53 <roconnor> ArdaXi: how do the pools avoid users searching the same space?
1117 2011-06-11 09:26:08 <ArdaXi> roconnor: I'm not entirely sure.
1118 2011-06-11 09:26:27 <ArdaXi> It is possible they're all given an extranonce.
1119 2011-06-11 09:26:36 <roconnor> ArdaXi: why do you doubt my speculation? :)
1120 2011-06-11 09:26:54 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
1121 2011-06-11 09:26:59 <ArdaXi> roconnor: Because I doubt that they are given concat(miningid+nonce)
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1123 2011-06-11 09:27:09 <ArdaXi> They're probably just given a new nonce every time they ask for new work.
1124 2011-06-11 09:27:29 <ArdaXi> But the point is, miners can't do that by themselves.
1125 2011-06-11 09:27:34 pogden has joined
1126 2011-06-11 09:27:49 <ArdaXi> So if you have no network connection and you've exhausted the nonce space, you can't do anything.
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1128 2011-06-11 09:27:54 <roconnor> I'm specuating that the miners are given miningid and they append their own extranonce
1129 2011-06-11 09:28:07 <ArdaXi> roconnor: Miners can't change extranonce.
1130 2011-06-11 09:28:08 <ArdaXi> At all.
1131 2011-06-11 09:28:10 <ArdaXi> Impossible.
1132 2011-06-11 09:28:11 <roconnor> oh
1133 2011-06-11 09:28:21 TommyBoy3G has joined
1134 2011-06-11 09:28:34 <roconnor> It seems with only the nonce to get through, they pool is causing a lot of network traffic.
1135 2011-06-11 09:28:35 <ArdaXi> It's part of the Merkle root, which is part of the header which the miner is sent.
1136 2011-06-11 09:28:48 <ArdaXi> The miner can change the header, but not the merkle tree.
1137 2011-06-11 09:28:51 <roconnor> ah
1138 2011-06-11 09:30:07 <roconnor> okay, if the pool has to dole out extranonces anyways then you are right that there is no point in including a miningid
1139 2011-06-11 09:30:08 <mtrlt> 11:22 < ArdaXi> So if you have no network connection and you've exhausted the nonce space, you can't do anything.
1140 2011-06-11 09:30:14 <mtrlt> you can modify the timestamp
1141 2011-06-11 09:31:08 <roconnor> and you can modify the version :D
1142 2011-06-11 09:31:48 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1143 2011-06-11 09:32:56 <roconnor> mtrlt: that is an intresting point. I'm suprised that people even bother with the extra nonce if they can fiddle with the timestamp instead.
1144 2011-06-11 09:33:49 <mtrlt> well, if someone has more than 2^32 H/s, he will run out of nonces before he can increment the timestamp _and_ be logically consistent
1145 2011-06-11 09:34:06 <mtrlt> but, since the block can be 2 hours into the future, i don't think that is a problem in practice
1146 2011-06-11 09:34:24 <mtrlt> since in a minute or so, the miner will just get new work
1147 2011-06-11 09:35:30 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
1148 2011-06-11 09:37:06 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Yes, but wouldn't that mess up anyone who hashes after your block?
1149 2011-06-11 09:37:09 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1150 2011-06-11 09:37:27 <ArdaXi> Because the later timestamp can't come before the earlier timestamp.
1151 2011-06-11 09:38:13 <mtrlt> nope, the lower limit for a block timestamp is the median of the last 11 blocks
1152 2011-06-11 09:38:29 <xelister> what is nowdays option to have bitcoind in background?!
1153 2011-06-11 09:38:35 <xelister> ./bitcoind -start stays in fg wtf
1154 2011-06-11 09:38:54 underscor has joined
1155 2011-06-11 09:38:58 LightRider is now known as afk!~LightRide@unaffiliated/lightrider|LightRider|MineC
1156 2011-06-11 09:39:22 <mtrlt> ArdaXi: plus, the timestamp cannot drift many seconds to the future since the miner requests new work regularly
1157 2011-06-11 09:39:51 <ArdaXi> xelister: ./bitcoind start | & should work
1158 2011-06-11 09:40:04 <xelister> I dont want to have to do the & thing
1159 2011-06-11 09:40:11 <xelister> normally it was backgrounding itself
1160 2011-06-11 09:40:14 <vegard> does there exist a getwork multiplexer? i.e. a program that sits between the miner and bitcoind, so that it automatically switches over to a different pool if one goes down
1161 2011-06-11 09:40:20 <mtrlt> are you discriminating against ampersands? :(
1162 2011-06-11 09:40:23 <ArdaXi> xelister: What's the point?
1163 2011-06-11 09:40:29 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1164 2011-06-11 09:42:27 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1167 2011-06-11 09:45:18 Bitcoinmaker has joined
1168 2011-06-11 09:45:54 <ArdaXi> Woah, look at the timing between the last couple of blocks
1169 2011-06-11 09:46:17 <ArdaXi> 3 created within the same minute at 08:28
1170 2011-06-11 09:46:22 <ArdaXi> Then 2 in 8:33
1171 2011-06-11 09:47:07 <xelister> all this crazy kids deploying their 718252 pieces of radeosn they bought
1172 2011-06-11 09:47:53 <xelister> boy radeon's sells must be skyrocketing
1173 2011-06-11 09:49:04 dr_win has joined
1174 2011-06-11 09:49:18 <ArdaXi> But they look like solo miners.
1175 2011-06-11 09:49:23 <ArdaXi> No payout.
1176 2011-06-11 09:49:45 <diki> where in phoenix should i edit to change the initial nonce per every hash?
1177 2011-06-11 09:49:50 <roconnor> ArdaXi: random distributions are clumpy
1178 2011-06-11 09:49:57 <ArdaXi> diki: Why would you want to?
1179 2011-06-11 09:50:05 <diki> because i do
1180 2011-06-11 09:50:15 <ArdaXi> roconnor: But a sudden spike of solo miners solving within a minute?
1181 2011-06-11 09:50:20 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1182 2011-06-11 09:50:21 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1183 2011-06-11 09:50:24 <ArdaXi> diki: You'll only slow mining down.
1184 2011-06-11 09:50:35 EncRyptO has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1185 2011-06-11 09:50:42 <diki> lol why?
1186 2011-06-11 09:50:48 <vegard> is there a livecd for ati mining?
1187 2011-06-11 09:51:02 <ArdaXi> diki: Because if your initial nonce is higher, you have less nonces to try before you have to do another getwork.
1188 2011-06-11 09:51:09 <vegard> hm, I guess that's -mining
1189 2011-06-11 09:51:15 <diki> fine by
1190 2011-06-11 09:51:20 <diki> *fine by me
1191 2011-06-11 09:51:25 Stellar has joined
1192 2011-06-11 09:51:42 <xelister> diki: are you doing some black magick
1193 2011-06-11 09:51:43 <ArdaXi> diki: I don't have the time to dig through the sources right now, sorry. I was just saying, it seems a bit counter-intuitive.
1194 2011-06-11 09:51:48 <xelister> mathematics can't be bribed
1195 2011-06-11 09:51:55 <xelister> initiall choice of nonce does not matter
1196 2011-06-11 09:52:12 <ArdaXi> xelister: Except it increments the nonce, so by starting higher, you're creating a smaller range.
1197 2011-06-11 09:52:15 <mtrlt> diki: what do you hope to achieve?
1198 2011-06-11 09:52:31 <mtrlt> ArdaXi: but it can overflow :p
1199 2011-06-11 09:52:34 <xelister> right, starting from >0 nonce decreases mining speed a bit
1200 2011-06-11 09:52:40 <mtrlt> in sane programming languages
1201 2011-06-11 09:52:40 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Erm, nope.
1202 2011-06-11 09:52:51 <mtrlt> 0xFFFFFFFF + 1 -> 0
1203 2011-06-11 09:52:53 <mtrlt> that what i mean
1204 2011-06-11 09:52:54 <ArdaXi> It can overflow into another extraNonce.
1205 2011-06-11 09:52:55 <mtrlt> that's
1206 2011-06-11 09:52:57 <xelister> 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
1207 2011-06-11 09:53:04 <ArdaXi> but extraNonce is set by the pool.
1208 2011-06-11 09:53:11 <ArdaXi> Not by the miner.
1209 2011-06-11 09:53:16 <mtrlt> if you start at 0, you'll go from 0 to 0xFFFFFFFF
1210 2011-06-11 09:53:21 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Yes.
1211 2011-06-11 09:53:21 <vegard> ArdaXi: it will wrap around and start back at 0
1212 2011-06-11 09:53:22 <gmaxwell> I heard if you setup a flat area in your yard, wear coconuts, and wave palm fronds cargo plains will land and bring wonderful goods.
1213 2011-06-11 09:53:34 <ArdaXi> vegard: No, it will do another getwork.
1214 2011-06-11 09:53:35 <mtrlt> if you start at 0x80000000, nothing prevents you from going from 0x80000000 to 0xFFFFFFFF to 0 to 0x7FFFFFFF
1215 2011-06-11 09:53:41 <mtrlt> but it's stupid, why would anyone do that :p
1216 2011-06-11 09:53:43 <xelister> gmaxwell: I think that's true!
1217 2011-06-11 09:53:49 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
1218 2011-06-11 09:54:03 <vegard> ArdaXi: uh, depends on your code.
1219 2011-06-11 09:54:14 <ArdaXi> Anyway, bitp.it uses an interesting form of pooled mining. It gives every client a nonce range to try.
1220 2011-06-11 09:54:20 <ArdaXi> vegard: Otherwise you're doing duplicate work.
1221 2011-06-11 09:54:25 <ArdaXi> Seems a bit useless.
1222 2011-06-11 09:54:30 <vegard> no, you're not.
1223 2011-06-11 09:54:34 <mtrlt> ArdaXi: how does it even give a nonce range
1224 2011-06-11 09:54:41 <mtrlt> that sounds impossible
1225 2011-06-11 09:54:45 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: http://api.bitp.it/work
1226 2011-06-11 09:54:49 <mtrlt> unless you are forced to use a specific miner
1227 2011-06-11 09:54:58 <gmaxwell> andrew12: find enough for really slow workers with custom code
1228 2011-06-11 09:55:01 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Duh, of course you are.
1229 2011-06-11 09:55:06 <ArdaXi> This is bitp.it I'm talking about.
1230 2011-06-11 09:55:06 <gmaxwell> thought kind of a waste of time
1231 2011-06-11 09:55:08 <mtrlt> ArdaXi: wtf is that shit, they're retarded
1232 2011-06-11 09:55:09 <ArdaXi> {
1233 2011-06-11 09:55:15 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: It's a Javascript miner.
1234 2011-06-11 09:55:27 <ArdaXi> There's no way it's going to stay open long enough to try every nonce.
1235 2011-06-11 09:55:28 <mtrlt> well, makes sense in that context
1236 2011-06-11 09:55:33 <mtrlt> but, a js miner is retarded :P
1237 2011-06-11 09:55:34 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: it does suggest a but some fundimental misunderstanding in how it works.
1238 2011-06-11 09:55:40 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: so?
1239 2011-06-11 09:55:47 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Not really.
1240 2011-06-11 09:55:50 <gmaxwell> not tring every nonce isn't a problem.
1241 2011-06-11 09:55:59 <mtrlt> a js miner IS retarded. you need like 30000 people to get the power of ONE 6990
1242 2011-06-11 09:56:01 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: Well, no, but it's more efficient to try every nonce.
1243 2011-06-11 09:56:06 <gmaxwell> ....
1244 2011-06-11 09:56:07 <mtrlt> and you better hope they're running chrome
1245 2011-06-11 09:56:07 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Economies of scale.
1246 2011-06-11 09:56:08 <gmaxwell> No it's not.
1247 2011-06-11 09:56:16 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: For the pool it is.
1248 2011-06-11 09:56:19 <ArdaXi> Less work for the pool.
1249 2011-06-11 09:56:29 <mtrlt> but sending a nonce range is still retarded
1250 2011-06-11 09:56:32 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Hardly.
1251 2011-06-11 09:56:38 <ArdaXi> If you know what your miners are capable of.
1252 2011-06-11 09:56:41 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: you save one sha256 for the pool per long-span-of-time wooptie.
1253 2011-06-11 09:56:42 <mtrlt> yes it is
1254 2011-06-11 09:56:50 <mtrlt> why woulnd't the miners just try nonces from 0?
1255 2011-06-11 09:56:58 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Because they won't.
1256 2011-06-11 09:57:04 <mtrlt> that is not an answer
1257 2011-06-11 09:57:09 <ArdaXi> The miner will be closed long before it reaches that point.
1258 2011-06-11 09:57:13 <mtrlt> reaches what?
1259 2011-06-11 09:57:15 Some-Dude has joined
1260 2011-06-11 09:57:19 <ArdaXi> mtrlt: Trying every nonce.
1261 2011-06-11 09:57:23 <mtrlt> why does it have to?
1262 2011-06-11 09:57:26 <gmaxwell> Sure. and?
1263 2011-06-11 09:57:26 <ArdaXi> Anyway, ask the bitp.it guys, not me.
1264 2011-06-11 09:57:27 <mtrlt> try every nonce
1265 2011-06-11 09:57:28 <ArdaXi> I'm off.
1266 2011-06-11 09:57:32 <mtrlt> you just don't understand, i do
1267 2011-06-11 09:57:34 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1268 2011-06-11 09:57:52 <vegard> basically, every nonce value is independent
1269 2011-06-11 09:57:56 <mtrlt> yes
1270 2011-06-11 09:57:59 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1271 2011-06-11 09:58:00 <mtrlt> so it doesn't matter where the miner starts
1272 2011-06-11 09:58:01 <vegard> so it doesn't matter if you bump nonce or extranonce
1273 2011-06-11 09:58:07 <mtrlt> so every miner could just start from 0
1274 2011-06-11 09:58:21 <mtrlt> and when it gets more work, it can just start from 0 again
1275 2011-06-11 09:58:28 <gmaxwell> vegard: or the timestamp (within bounds for that matter)
1276 2011-06-11 09:58:43 <vegard> yep
1277 2011-06-11 09:59:28 <xelister> bc,stats
1278 2011-06-11 09:59:31 <xelister> ;;bc,stats
1279 2011-06-11 09:59:38 <xelister> ;;bc,stat
1280 2011-06-11 09:59:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 129998 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 1041 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 791497.74863727
1281 2011-06-11 09:59:40 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
1282 2011-06-11 09:59:54 <mtrlt> 800k X_x
1283 2011-06-11 10:00:12 underscor has joined
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1307 2011-06-11 10:28:41 <xelister> how many blocks are now in testnet?
1308 2011-06-11 10:31:29 zyb has joined
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1312 2011-06-11 10:34:19 <xelister> from fucking cmdline, how to list still-maturing blocks?
1313 2011-06-11 10:34:32 dissipate_ has joined
1314 2011-06-11 10:34:56 <vegard> listtransactions I think
1315 2011-06-11 10:35:17 <vegard> they show as 50btc transactions with 0-119 confirmations
1316 2011-06-11 10:35:25 <xelister> indeed \o
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1329 2011-06-11 10:59:10 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
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1341 2011-06-11 11:11:06 <codler> Hi
1342 2011-06-11 11:12:17 Belkaar has joined
1343 2011-06-11 11:12:20 <codler> Are there a reason why \n is inside translation function? Wouldn't it be better if \n was outside?
1344 2011-06-11 11:12:22 <codler> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/6854a2ade6fe053f0c8baf81551846c4af2c1490/src/init.cpp#L145-193
1345 2011-06-11 11:14:17 lumos has joined
1346 2011-06-11 11:14:25 <Belkaar> Hello, I use the official client as backend for my bitcoin business site using RPC and what would be really good would be a possibility to get one or more sender-adresses from a transaction to do refunds. Is that possible?
1347 2011-06-11 11:14:29 <gjs278> I dont see how that can matter
1348 2011-06-11 11:14:56 <gjs278> Belkaar ask them for a return address and store it
1349 2011-06-11 11:15:08 xenland has quit (Quit: IRC for iPhone)
1350 2011-06-11 11:15:15 dvide has joined
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1352 2011-06-11 11:15:31 Cherothald has joined
1353 2011-06-11 11:15:35 <sipa> Belkaar: there is no guarantee that senden money to the sender address will get it to the sender
1354 2011-06-11 11:15:41 <sipa> eg. when using e-wallet services
1355 2011-06-11 11:15:54 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1356 2011-06-11 11:15:55 <gribble> 130009
1357 2011-06-11 11:16:02 dissipate_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1358 2011-06-11 11:16:07 aristidesfl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1359 2011-06-11 11:16:33 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1360 2011-06-11 11:16:48 anddam has joined
1361 2011-06-11 11:16:50 <anddam> hello
1362 2011-06-11 11:16:53 <anddam> jrmithdobbs: you there?
1363 2011-06-11 11:17:42 <Belkaar> sipa: I never understood this. Don't you have fixed addresses for your eWallet?
1364 2011-06-11 11:18:08 <sipa> for receiving, yes
1365 2011-06-11 11:18:15 TheAncientGoat has joined
1366 2011-06-11 11:18:31 <sipa> but there is no guarantee or reason that if you send coins, those are coins that were last sent to your address
1367 2011-06-11 11:18:38 <Belkaar> gjs278: Thats exactly what I didn't want to do
1368 2011-06-11 11:18:44 BlueMattBot has joined
1369 2011-06-11 11:19:08 <sipa> said otherwise: bitcoin transactions fundamentally do not have a from address - they have only an address they were last sent to
1370 2011-06-11 11:19:45 manifold has joined
1371 2011-06-11 11:21:50 <Belkaar> sipa: So services like bitlotto are potentially flawed in that way? As far as I can tell they are doing exactly that.
1372 2011-06-11 11:22:35 <sipa> not sure how bitlotto works
1373 2011-06-11 11:22:56 <sipa> DO NOT SEND COINS FROM AN EWALLET.(Online service) Only send the 0.25 BTC from Bitcoin software running on your computer. If you send the BTC from an EWALLET, you will not get the winnings.
1374 2011-06-11 11:22:57 opfa has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1375 2011-06-11 11:23:02 <sipa> on bitlotto.com
1376 2011-06-11 11:23:40 <TheAncientGoat> ooo, price slipped again
1377 2011-06-11 11:24:30 <Belkaar> sipa: ah I get it now.
1378 2011-06-11 11:24:36 pensan has joined
1379 2011-06-11 11:25:05 <Belkaar> One other question: Is there a tool somewhere to modify the wallet, especially remove accounts?
1380 2011-06-11 11:25:16 <sipa> there is bitcointools
1381 2011-06-11 11:25:21 <sipa> not sure what it supports
1382 2011-06-11 11:25:54 anddam has left ()
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1386 2011-06-11 11:29:27 <Belkaar> thanks, I'll check it out
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1392 2011-06-11 11:36:59 LightRider is now known as MineC!~LightRide@unaffiliated/lightrider|LightRIder|afk
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1398 2011-06-11 11:50:31 <TheAncientGoat> Oooh, man, equalization time
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1415 2011-06-11 12:17:12 <erle-> has somebody succesfully run the client on linux from a different user account (via "su" for example)
1416 2011-06-11 12:17:13 <erle-> ?
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1423 2011-06-11 12:26:18 <gjs278> erle- yes you can do that
1424 2011-06-11 12:26:40 <anddam> erle-: you may want to use 'su -'
1425 2011-06-11 12:26:40 <erle-> gjs278, doesnt work
1426 2011-06-11 12:26:47 <gjs278> what does it say
1427 2011-06-11 12:26:57 <anddam> gjs278: "Error: doesn't work"
1428 2011-06-11 12:27:04 <anddam> classic error log
1429 2011-06-11 12:28:58 <erle-> http://pastebin.com/U9eGNCmk
1430 2011-06-11 12:29:12 <erle-> oh, waiyt
1431 2011-06-11 12:29:15 <gjs278> ok
1432 2011-06-11 12:29:16 <erle-> i forgot xhost +
1433 2011-06-11 12:29:18 <gjs278> you are using X
1434 2011-06-11 12:29:19 <gjs278> yes
1435 2011-06-11 12:29:21 <gjs278> do that
1436 2011-06-11 12:29:24 <erle-> it still does now work with xhost
1437 2011-06-11 12:29:35 <gjs278> well
1438 2011-06-11 12:29:59 <gjs278> what's your reasoning for trying to run the gui on another user
1439 2011-06-11 12:30:04 <gjs278> I can see bitcoind
1440 2011-06-11 12:30:08 <erle-> http://pastebin.com/9sJ89hCt
1441 2011-06-11 12:30:10 <gjs278> so you can background it with limited perms
1442 2011-06-11 12:30:35 <erle-> yeah, but even with GUI enabled, bitcoin does not work
1443 2011-06-11 12:30:43 <gjs278> try using bitcoind
1444 2011-06-11 12:30:45 <erle-> i guess it wants a dbus session
1445 2011-06-11 12:30:46 <erle-> ok
1446 2011-06-11 12:30:48 <gjs278> yeah
1447 2011-06-11 12:30:54 <gjs278> bitcoind is the command line version
1448 2011-06-11 12:30:59 <gjs278> you should be able to run it as anyone
1449 2011-06-11 12:32:33 <anddam> bitcoin is command line as well, AFAIK
1450 2011-06-11 12:32:35 * roconnor 's code now properly checks that coinbase Tx's are not used for 100 blocks.
1451 2011-06-11 12:33:20 <roconnor> I think my last major missing check is veifiying that the difficulty target of a block is where it ought to be.
1452 2011-06-11 12:33:40 <gjs278> bitcoin is only command line with a certain flag
1453 2011-06-11 12:33:54 <gjs278> otherwise it will (fail) to spawn the gui
1454 2011-06-11 12:35:59 soap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1455 2011-06-11 12:36:12 Bitcoinmaker has quit ()
1456 2011-06-11 12:38:49 <erle-> i cant find such a flag
1457 2011-06-11 12:38:56 <erle-> i will go with the daemon
1458 2011-06-11 12:38:58 <erle-> thanks
1459 2011-06-11 12:39:50 gsathya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1460 2011-06-11 12:40:37 mindful has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1461 2011-06-11 12:41:01 Kurtov has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1464 2011-06-11 12:44:35 zyb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1465 2011-06-11 12:44:58 <anddam> gjs278: it doesn't print an error when failing to spawn a gui, right?
1466 2011-06-11 12:44:59 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1467 2011-06-11 12:45:28 underscor has joined
1468 2011-06-11 12:45:32 <anddam> I've been trying to use cli with and couldn't figure well how it works
1469 2011-06-11 12:46:10 gsathya has joined
1470 2011-06-11 12:51:07 zyb_ has quit ()
1471 2011-06-11 12:51:16 zyb has joined
1472 2011-06-11 12:55:06 Der_ has joined
1473 2011-06-11 12:55:18 <Der_> Check out the Bitcoin Lottery, only 0.1 BTC playing value, 50% winning chance: http://k8500.com
1474 2011-06-11 12:55:45 Der_ has quit (Client Quit)
1475 2011-06-11 12:57:52 <D0han> +b?
1476 2011-06-11 12:58:22 <anddam> Der Spamme (german wordjoke)
1477 2011-06-11 13:00:29 datagutt has joined
1478 2011-06-11 13:08:04 m00p has joined
1479 2011-06-11 13:18:15 dissipate_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1480 2011-06-11 13:22:04 Belkaar has quit (Quit: leaving)
1481 2011-06-11 13:29:27 Mad7Scientist has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1482 2011-06-11 13:29:28 plutonic has joined
1483 2011-06-11 13:29:59 anderson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1484 2011-06-11 13:30:59 pensancola has joined
1485 2011-06-11 13:31:10 opfa has joined
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1487 2011-06-11 13:34:56 TD has joined
1488 2011-06-11 13:34:58 exe_ has joined
1489 2011-06-11 13:34:59 pensancola has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1490 2011-06-11 13:36:50 <exe_> should i send to pool all hashes found with "__hash[7] == 0" ?
1491 2011-06-11 13:37:23 <mtrlt> compare the whole hash to the target you get from the server.
1492 2011-06-11 13:39:12 <exe_> ok, it's currently 2^32.
1493 2011-06-11 13:39:17 <exe_> so yes
1494 2011-06-11 13:40:27 Breign has joined
1495 2011-06-11 13:40:32 <mtrlt> it might vary between different pools
1496 2011-06-11 13:40:43 <mtrlt> and your pool might change it too :) except if you're running your own pool
1497 2011-06-11 13:41:40 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1498 2011-06-11 13:43:58 <lfm> usually 2^32 - 1
1499 2011-06-11 13:44:27 <lfm> or 2^224 - 1 I mean
1500 2011-06-11 13:45:11 <mtrlt> yes usually but not always
1501 2011-06-11 13:47:28 gsathya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1502 2011-06-11 13:47:37 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1503 2011-06-11 13:50:08 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
1504 2011-06-11 13:51:24 Guest89514 has joined
1505 2011-06-11 13:51:29 <Guest89514> ;;bc
1506 2011-06-11 13:51:29 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1507 2011-06-11 13:52:19 <lfm> ;;bc,help
1508 2011-06-11 13:52:19 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,interval, Alias (1 more message)
1509 2011-06-11 13:54:48 Titeuf_87 has joined
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1522 2011-06-11 14:22:33 wolfspraul has joined
1523 2011-06-11 14:23:40 <Graet> nanotube about?
1524 2011-06-11 14:24:00 <lfm> ;;seen nanotube
1525 2011-06-11 14:24:06 <gribble> nanotube was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 10 hours, 6 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <nanotube> gjs278: thanks :)
1526 2011-06-11 14:24:33 <Graet> ta :)
1527 2011-06-11 14:24:33 <lfm> maybe I can help
1528 2011-06-11 14:24:45 <Graet> i'm wondering about gribble
1529 2011-06-11 14:25:03 gavinandresen has joined
1530 2011-06-11 14:25:06 <Graet> i have #ozcoin wondering the ettiquet of getting gribble to join
1531 2011-06-11 14:25:32 <lfm> ya I guess you need him for that
1532 2011-06-11 14:25:33 <[Tycho]> Something is wrong with the forum ?
1533 2011-06-11 14:25:45 <lfm> something?
1534 2011-06-11 14:25:45 <Graet> thanks lfm :)
1535 2011-06-11 14:25:52 erle- has joined
1536 2011-06-11 14:26:11 <[Tycho]> lfm, shows me blank pages frequently today.
1537 2011-06-11 14:26:24 <neopallium> same here
1538 2011-06-11 14:26:38 <diki> i was telling the devs the forum loaded slowly
1539 2011-06-11 14:26:42 <diki> but they didn't listen
1540 2011-06-11 14:26:45 <lfm> yup I got one too
1541 2011-06-11 14:26:57 <diki> So like i said, i demand it's fixed
1542 2011-06-11 14:26:59 Kurtov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1543 2011-06-11 14:27:03 Klash_ has joined
1544 2011-06-11 14:27:21 fabianhjr has joined
1545 2011-06-11 14:27:24 <lfm> ya me too
1546 2011-06-11 14:27:31 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup? Why is the forum affline? DDoS?
1547 2011-06-11 14:27:38 io_error has joined
1548 2011-06-11 14:27:38 io_error has quit (Changing host)
1549 2011-06-11 14:27:38 io_error has joined
1550 2011-06-11 14:27:46 <lfm> its broke
1551 2011-06-11 14:28:11 <lfm> fabianhjr: wanna sign out petition to get it fixed?
1552 2011-06-11 14:28:16 <lfm> our
1553 2011-06-11 14:28:26 <fabianhjr> lol, why a petition? xD
1554 2011-06-11 14:28:37 <lfm> we had to do something!
1555 2011-06-11 14:29:11 <lfm> we were gonna call the press in too
1556 2011-06-11 14:29:33 <lfm> we're mad as heck and we're not gonna take it any more
1557 2011-06-11 14:29:52 <Graet> i'm talking to a journalist in pm. should i invite her in?
1558 2011-06-11 14:29:55 <Graet> j/k soz
1559 2011-06-11 14:30:22 <fabianhjr> :/ Dunno, does she know about the IRC?
1560 2011-06-11 14:30:24 <lfm> oh! what you gonna talk about (besides the forum is broke)
1561 2011-06-11 14:31:08 robin has joined
1562 2011-06-11 14:31:46 <forexmasterja> what the hell is happening with the btc price ?
1563 2011-06-11 14:31:53 fimp has joined
1564 2011-06-11 14:31:54 ooo_ has joined
1565 2011-06-11 14:31:58 <fabianhjr> Maybe too much traffic due to recent highlights in big news site?
1566 2011-06-11 14:32:04 <fabianhjr> It is dipping.
1567 2011-06-11 14:32:05 <pirrr> fuckfuckfuck @ mtgox....
1568 2011-06-11 14:32:10 <pirrr> :o
1569 2011-06-11 14:32:10 <lfm> crazy people keep buying no matter how much we ask em to pay
1570 2011-06-11 14:32:18 <fabianhjr> Not only MtGox, TradeHill also.
1571 2011-06-11 14:32:53 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
1572 2011-06-11 14:32:55 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
1573 2011-06-11 14:33:03 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":26.65,"low":15.5,"vol":117338,"buy":15.5,"sell":16.03,"last":16}}
1574 2011-06-11 14:33:18 <lfm> doh it crashed! lol
1575 2011-06-11 14:33:24 Klash_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1576 2011-06-11 14:33:28 <vegard> 15?
1577 2011-06-11 14:33:35 Kurtov has joined
1578 2011-06-11 14:33:52 <fabianhjr> :P It is a dip/
1579 2011-06-11 14:34:18 <fabianhjr> I wished the options sites where ready. Should there be a shrting service this would ahve been hell smoother.
1580 2011-06-11 14:34:28 xtalmath has joined
1581 2011-06-11 14:34:43 <da2ce7> ;;isitdown forum.bitcoin.org
1582 2011-06-11 14:34:43 <gribble> http://forum.bitcoin.org Is Up -> Check if your website is up or down?
1583 2011-06-11 14:35:20 <da2ce7> hmm it is down for me.
1584 2011-06-11 14:35:21 <fabianhjr> It returns an empty page, thereby you can assume it is down due to technical issues.
1585 2011-06-11 14:35:31 <fabianhjr> Maybe they are moving to a bigger server. :/
1586 2011-06-11 14:35:31 mmoya has joined
1587 2011-06-11 14:35:44 <lfm> ya gribble cant tell an empty page from a up web site
1588 2011-06-11 14:36:24 vorlov has joined
1589 2011-06-11 14:36:32 vorlov has quit (Client Quit)
1590 2011-06-11 14:36:45 <jackmcbarn> ;;bc,help bc,convert
1591 2011-06-11 14:36:48 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,interval, (1 more message)
1592 2011-06-11 14:36:52 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1593 2011-06-11 14:37:04 pRjck3vC has joined
1594 2011-06-11 14:37:18 <xtalmath> which is cause and which effect? forum being down, btc value falling momentarily
1595 2011-06-11 14:37:23 Blitzboom_ has joined
1596 2011-06-11 14:37:36 <jackmcbarn> i'd say forum going down is cause, if they're related
1597 2011-06-11 14:37:57 <jackmcbarn> why would the forum go down because of a bitcoin drop?
1598 2011-06-11 14:38:15 <fabianhjr> No, the drop is becuase the unavailability of the forums.
1599 2011-06-11 14:38:20 <xtalmath> opposite is also possible, people want to find out why price is dropping? perhaps a vulnerability was found,...
1600 2011-06-11 14:38:22 piggybank has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1601 2011-06-11 14:38:23 <lfm> why would the price drop cuz of forum down?
1602 2011-06-11 14:38:31 <fabianhjr> Also, I think the end of registration on Silk Road also stopped the rally. :/
1603 2011-06-11 14:38:57 wolfspraul has joined
1604 2011-06-11 14:38:57 <jackmcbarn> Silk Road?
1605 2011-06-11 14:39:04 <fabianhjr> Though, it is still "I think x caused y in the bitcoin exchange."
1606 2011-06-11 14:39:17 z310_ is now known as z310
1607 2011-06-11 14:39:22 <fabianhjr> The Silk Road.
1608 2011-06-11 14:39:37 <jackmcbarn> what is that, and what does end of registration mean?
1609 2011-06-11 14:39:52 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1610 2011-06-11 14:39:54 <lfm> www.thesilkroad.com?
1611 2011-06-11 14:40:26 <vegard> drug marketplace
1612 2011-06-11 14:40:38 <xtalmath> is namecoin drop also falling with btc?
1613 2011-06-11 14:40:52 <io_error> The forum is down
1614 2011-06-11 14:40:59 <jackmcbarn> www.thesilkroad.com looks like the lamest attempt at making a webpage ever
1615 2011-06-11 14:41:06 <diki> oh my god..............
1616 2011-06-11 14:41:11 <diki> 13 dollars????
1617 2011-06-11 14:41:33 <io_error> Bargain basement prices!
1618 2011-06-11 14:41:40 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1619 2011-06-11 14:41:42 mmoya_ has joined
1620 2011-06-11 14:41:49 <xtalmath> jackmcbarn: thats not the silkroad, its on tor onion hidden service
1621 2011-06-11 14:41:51 <io_error> Wish I had some USD in mtgox right now
1622 2011-06-11 14:42:02 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
1623 2011-06-11 14:42:19 <jackmcbarn> lfm: ......
1624 2011-06-11 14:42:22 simkiss has joined
1625 2011-06-11 14:42:55 <lfm> jackmcbarn: thesilkroad.com isnt a real site, it is a placeholder
1626 2011-06-11 14:43:37 <lfm> io_error: it might be going a lot lower
1627 2011-06-11 14:44:05 <io_error> ZOMG bitcoin is going to zero!!!
1628 2011-06-11 14:44:08 zxer has joined
1629 2011-06-11 14:44:21 flok has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1630 2011-06-11 14:44:38 * roconnor decides to actually check the The Times, 03/Jan/2009
1631 2011-06-11 14:45:05 <lfm> roconnor: why?
1632 2011-06-11 14:45:17 apsoa has joined
1633 2011-06-11 14:45:32 <roconnor> to verify the genesis block was made after Jan/03
1634 2011-06-11 14:46:16 <_dr> holy crap, gone for one hour and now this
1635 2011-06-11 14:47:14 <pirrr> welcome back!
1636 2011-06-11 14:47:33 <io_error> No sign of theymos, I take it?
1637 2011-06-11 14:48:09 <io_error> or sirius
1638 2011-06-11 14:49:06 <diki> yeah these theymost and sirius shouldnt manage a forum if they are not there
1639 2011-06-11 14:50:16 <z310> people are busy
1640 2011-06-11 14:50:19 <diki> i dont care
1641 2011-06-11 14:50:28 <diki> it's their job
1642 2011-06-11 14:50:35 <diki> bitcoins are currency, not toys
1643 2011-06-11 14:50:41 <z310> i wasn't aware that they got paid
1644 2011-06-11 14:50:44 <diki> they made a forum, their responsibility
1645 2011-06-11 14:50:53 <diki> who said they didn't?
1646 2011-06-11 14:51:04 <z310> maybe you misread
1647 2011-06-11 14:51:10 <diki> i did not
1648 2011-06-11 14:51:18 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1649 2011-06-11 14:51:20 <diki> mining bitcoins is their way to get paid
1650 2011-06-11 14:51:28 Blitzboom has joined
1651 2011-06-11 14:51:28 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
1652 2011-06-11 14:51:28 Blitzboom has joined
1653 2011-06-11 14:51:35 <directhex> you will receive a full refund for your forum account membership in the mail
1654 2011-06-11 14:51:35 <diki> they made support forums, they MUST(not should) adminster them
1655 2011-06-11 14:51:43 <lfm> diki: huh? thats not pay for makeing the forum
1656 2011-06-11 14:51:49 <directhex> please wait 4-6 weeks for it to arrive
1657 2011-06-11 14:52:11 molecular has joined
1658 2011-06-11 14:52:12 pensan has joined
1659 2011-06-11 14:52:55 <lfm> diki its the weekend, they might get back to work on monday
1660 2011-06-11 14:53:14 Blitzboom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1661 2011-06-11 14:55:23 flok has joined
1662 2011-06-11 14:55:49 <roconnor> monday is a holiday for me
1663 2011-06-11 14:55:52 <diki> <lfm> diki: huh? thats not pay for makeing the forum<- they didn't actually make the forum, it's just an SFM forum system
1664 2011-06-11 14:56:08 <diki> a domain costs like 10 dollars for a year, depending on the domain
1665 2011-06-11 14:56:19 <diki> the org is not far from this price
1666 2011-06-11 14:56:23 <diki> and again, a full year
1667 2011-06-11 14:56:27 <diki> as for hosting....
1668 2011-06-11 14:56:31 <diki> dunno there
1669 2011-06-11 14:57:22 aristidesfl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1670 2011-06-11 14:57:28 davex_r has joined
1671 2011-06-11 15:00:03 flok has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1672 2011-06-11 15:04:17 flok has joined
1673 2011-06-11 15:04:24 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1674 2011-06-11 15:04:40 johnlockwood has joined
1675 2011-06-11 15:04:56 <forrestv> 'getblockheight' gives the block height of the last block
1676 2011-06-11 15:05:17 <forrestv> is 50*100000000 >> height//210000 valid for the last block?
1677 2011-06-11 15:05:41 <forrestv> (just trying to confirm ... bitcoin seems a bit weird with block numbering)
1678 2011-06-11 15:06:03 <forrestv> (i'm talking about the block reward)
1679 2011-06-11 15:06:36 gruez has joined
1680 2011-06-11 15:08:58 germanMNY has joined
1681 2011-06-11 15:10:16 <lfm> ;;bc,totalbtc
1682 2011-06-11 15:10:17 <gribble> Error: "bc,totalbtc" is not a valid command.
1683 2011-06-11 15:10:21 <lfm> ;;bc,totalbc
1684 2011-06-11 15:10:22 <gribble> 6502350.00000000
1685 2011-06-11 15:10:52 <erle-> i have an idea for a feature i would implement, so i want to know if you think it makes sense (i don't want to do the work, if nobody wants it)
1686 2011-06-11 15:10:59 <erle-> there could be a "piggy bank" button
1687 2011-06-11 15:11:20 <erle-> which asks for a password, generates a new key and stores the private key encrypted in a new file
1688 2011-06-11 15:11:27 * diki wishes chrome bring back the --single process argument
1689 2011-06-11 15:11:33 <diki> *Google
1690 2011-06-11 15:11:38 <erle-> then you can send bitcoins to the piggy bank's public key
1691 2011-06-11 15:11:56 <[Tycho]> Why mtGox cen't just work... Most times shows "Another trade is still in progress, please retry in a few seconds" and does nothing.
1692 2011-06-11 15:12:09 <erle-> and you can store the piggy bank file anywhere, should be strongly protected (AES256 + strong password)
1693 2011-06-11 15:12:25 <roconnor> damn it, the time returned by GetMedianTimePast isn't the median time.
1694 2011-06-11 15:12:29 Raccoon is now known as BITCOIN-SEC
1695 2011-06-11 15:12:30 BITCOIN-SEC is now known as Raccoon
1696 2011-06-11 15:12:31 * roconnor grumps
1697 2011-06-11 15:13:02 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
1698 2011-06-11 15:13:04 <roconnor> oh wait it is
1699 2011-06-11 15:13:06 <roconnor> whew
1700 2011-06-11 15:14:54 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1701 2011-06-11 15:15:17 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1702 2011-06-11 15:15:31 lisp has joined
1703 2011-06-11 15:16:12 <xtalmath> Would the market not be stabler if exchanges let users buy/sell at the moment of transactions? i.e. the users would all bid and order for a certain amount of btc to be exchanged at next block?
1704 2011-06-11 15:17:03 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1705 2011-06-11 15:17:03 <lfm> xtalmath: naw, wouldnt help
1706 2011-06-11 15:17:44 <xtalmath> of course bids and orders could fluctuate during the 10 minutes, but whats the use if everybody has 10 minutes to let ask and bid stabilize
1707 2011-06-11 15:17:52 <lfm> xtalmath: besides you know trades arent tied to blocks at all
1708 2011-06-11 15:17:53 <fabianhjr> FreeMoney is here?
1709 2011-06-11 15:18:02 <xtalmath> I know trades arent
1710 2011-06-11 15:18:11 <xtalmath> the exchange doesnt generate the next block
1711 2011-06-11 15:18:37 <lfm> trades arnt put in the block chain as transactions either
1712 2011-06-11 15:19:03 <xtalmath> but mtgox processing buy/sell at high rate just allows value to fluctuate quickly, and generates more traffic for itself...
1713 2011-06-11 15:19:03 <lfm> only deposits and withdrawals
1714 2011-06-11 15:19:22 flok has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1715 2011-06-11 15:19:35 <lfm> xtalmath: yup, and traffic == profit fo them so they dont want to slow it down
1716 2011-06-11 15:19:44 <xtalmath> now I see
1717 2011-06-11 15:20:13 <xtalmath> so mtgox just really profits from mindfucking btc traders...
1718 2011-06-11 15:20:33 <xtalmath> we should find a way to decentralize value
1719 2011-06-11 15:20:53 <lfm> xtalmath: no different from nyse
1720 2011-06-11 15:21:11 * roconnor thought markets were a way to decentralize value
1721 2011-06-11 15:21:12 apsoa has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1722 2011-06-11 15:21:12 <xtalmath> i.e. everyone looks at mtgox charts, changes buy sell behaviour, feedback loop
1723 2011-06-11 15:21:32 <xtalmath> lfm: agree, and nyse isnt decentralized either
1724 2011-06-11 15:21:45 <jeremias> well, i'm on hold & buy
1725 2011-06-11 15:21:53 <jeremias> it just takes time to transfer euros to mtgox
1726 2011-06-11 15:22:13 <roconnor> the nyse doesn't say what prices stocks trade at (modulo some exceptional circumstances I guess)
1727 2011-06-11 15:22:33 flok has joined
1728 2011-06-11 15:23:04 <lfm> mtgox does not set any prices either
1729 2011-06-11 15:23:36 lisp has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1730 2011-06-11 15:24:43 mastermind2 has joined
1731 2011-06-11 15:24:49 <mastermind2> Hey guys
1732 2011-06-11 15:25:07 <lfm> ya?
1733 2011-06-11 15:25:10 <mastermind2> Was just wondering if anyone had any information on where I could create my own bitcoin trading website
1734 2011-06-11 15:25:22 <lfm> anywhere you want
1735 2011-06-11 15:25:35 <mastermind2> :(
1736 2011-06-11 15:25:47 <mastermind2> lol
1737 2011-06-11 15:25:56 <mastermind2> where I could find information to create a trading website(
1738 2011-06-11 15:26:29 <xtalmath> so average growth of value still being exponential because of adoption (i.e. innovation vs invention) prevents the economy from flowering just jet, and as long as theres no real btc economy beyond currency exchanging, the price will fluctuate?
1739 2011-06-11 15:26:38 <fabianhjr> mastermind2: bitcoin-central is open source. You can start with that.
1740 2011-06-11 15:26:47 <mastermind2> Yeah, I just dropped them email.
1741 2011-06-11 15:26:50 <mastermind2> Thank god for Google search.
1742 2011-06-11 15:27:09 <mastermind2> So that's the only API thats open source and free to use?
1743 2011-06-11 15:27:15 <mastermind2> I visited there website, all it consists of is an ordering page
1744 2011-06-11 15:27:35 <fabianhjr> :/ You are still free to code one for yourself.
1745 2011-06-11 15:27:40 <lfm> mastermind2: I dont think there is any specificly bitcoin open source site but I think you can take a generic trading site software for money exchange or commodity exchange and make it work for bitcoin
1746 2011-06-11 15:27:40 <fabianhjr> G2G
1747 2011-06-11 15:27:43 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
1748 2011-06-11 15:28:30 <lfm> or listen to fabianhjr instead of me!
1749 2011-06-11 15:28:31 <mastermind2> hmm, thats exactly what I was thinking in the beginning lfm.
1750 2011-06-11 15:28:42 <mastermind2> I was thinking to myself, how are these guys creating this.
1751 2011-06-11 15:28:53 <mastermind2> My first thought was that they are using some type of currency exchange api
1752 2011-06-11 15:29:09 scala has joined
1753 2011-06-11 15:29:23 <Blitzboom> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/06/11/1417239/Fridays-Big-Swings-Mostly-Down-Illustrate-Bitcoin-Value-Volatility
1754 2011-06-11 15:29:24 <Blitzboom> -_-
1755 2011-06-11 15:30:09 <mastermind2> I wish there was some tutorial, or some thing that at least outlined how the entire process works....
1756 2011-06-11 15:30:25 <mastermind2> I guess my best bet is with bit coin central
1757 2011-06-11 15:30:39 <lfm> mastermind2: might want to check out a library!
1758 2011-06-11 15:30:59 <xtalmath> Historically even before money, people fought over land... what if we make a namecoin-like blockchain which rents out land for landcoins?
1759 2011-06-11 15:31:03 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1760 2011-06-11 15:31:22 <xtalmath> that would really piss off some governments.. and with all the squatting movements...
1761 2011-06-11 15:31:26 <mastermind2> what am i going to do at a library?
1762 2011-06-11 15:31:41 <mastermind2> learn how to code C++?
1763 2011-06-11 15:31:42 <mastermind2> :p
1764 2011-06-11 15:31:47 Nicksasa has joined
1765 2011-06-11 15:32:10 <lfm> mastermind2: if its a big enuf library they might have some accounting type books for currency exchange
1766 2011-06-11 15:32:20 <mastermind2> lmfao
1767 2011-06-11 15:32:29 <mastermind2> Thanks for making me look stupid
1768 2011-06-11 15:32:52 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1769 2011-06-11 15:32:52 <mastermind2> must... find...
1770 2011-06-11 15:32:56 <bonsaikitten> xtalmath: your ideas confuse me
1771 2011-06-11 15:33:10 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
1772 2011-06-11 15:33:29 <lfm> bonsaikitten: consider his name, might be a clue
1773 2011-06-11 15:33:44 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1774 2011-06-11 15:33:59 <bonsaikitten> lfm: you can be a dog on IRC and no one will know ;)
1775 2011-06-11 15:34:21 <lfm> ya, you're right, it is confusing
1776 2011-06-11 15:34:27 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1777 2011-06-11 15:34:35 hachque has joined
1778 2011-06-11 15:35:16 skeledrew has joined
1779 2011-06-11 15:35:22 soap has joined
1780 2011-06-11 15:35:25 da2ce7 has joined
1781 2011-06-11 15:35:26 <xtalmath> what part confuses you?
1782 2011-06-11 15:35:54 <lfm> how you gonna talk governments outa not taxing land?
1783 2011-06-11 15:36:15 <lfm> or inta
1784 2011-06-11 15:36:56 zxer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1785 2011-06-11 15:37:11 <xtalmath> bitcoin destroys government taxing capability => no budget for chasing after people to pay land taxes.. people need a decentralized way to rent land from the world society
1786 2011-06-11 15:38:07 <xtalmath> people mine landcoins, landcoins are traded with btc, if a patch of land is very popular it will increase the landcoin value of those coordinates
1787 2011-06-11 15:38:25 <lfm> those gov'mint are tricky tho, they just send a tax collector to the land in question and arrest the ones they find there
1788 2011-06-11 15:38:32 <xtalmath> whether popular for living, oil, mining, nature,...
1789 2011-06-11 15:38:33 <roconnor> ``To that end, a major improvement would be for Bitcoin exchanges to implement mandatory market closures if the currency value dropped below a threshold.'' from dailytech
1790 2011-06-11 15:38:40 <roconnor> that seems like a bad idea to me
1791 2011-06-11 15:38:46 <xtalmath> lfm: pay tax collector with what budget?
1792 2011-06-11 15:39:16 <lfm> xtalmath: pay tax collector by not throwing him in jail
1793 2011-06-11 15:39:19 <B0g4r7> Yeah, it doesn't seem to help much in classical markets.
1794 2011-06-11 15:39:33 <xtalmath> lfm: pay for jails with what budget?
1795 2011-06-11 15:39:49 <B0g4r7> When a circuit breaker pops, it usually just means a bug gap down when trading resumes.
1796 2011-06-11 15:39:54 <B0g4r7> big
1797 2011-06-11 15:39:54 <io_error> Did someone say tax collector? That calls for tar and featherscoin
1798 2011-06-11 15:40:13 anddam has left ()
1799 2011-06-11 15:40:17 <roconnor> B0g4r7: I would find it disconserting to have a market close on me.
1800 2011-06-11 15:40:22 <lfm> xtalmath: the prisoners can build their own jails, no need to pay em
1801 2011-06-11 15:40:27 <roconnor> that would reduce my confidence a lot
1802 2011-06-11 15:40:37 <B0g4r7> momcoin -- trades urmom 24/7
1803 2011-06-11 15:41:13 <xtalmath> lfm, if its cheaper to pay landcoins than it is to rent, and they can prove they used rentcoins to pay for their land, a lot of squatters could gain respect..
1804 2011-06-11 15:41:46 <lfm> B0g4r7: whats a good milf going for these days?
1805 2011-06-11 15:42:32 <xtalmath> organcoins, decentralized organ donors
1806 2011-06-11 15:42:50 <xtalmath> with smart cryptocontract... be sure to get a new heart when you need one
1807 2011-06-11 15:42:51 <lfm> that makes more sense than the land stuff
1808 2011-06-11 15:43:26 <bonsaikitten> if all you have is bitcoins every problem looks like it needs decentralized transactions
1809 2011-06-11 15:43:28 <lfm> organ farming == bitcoin mining
1810 2011-06-11 15:43:30 <xtalmath> lfm landcoins make as much sense as namecoins: instead of renting out parts of namespace rent out parts of world
1811 2011-06-11 15:43:58 <bonsaikitten> xtalmath: why use bitcoins when you can use any other method of barter?
1812 2011-06-11 15:44:12 hereforfun has joined
1813 2011-06-11 15:44:17 <xtalmath> bonsaikitten: what do you mean?
1814 2011-06-11 15:44:22 lumos has joined
1815 2011-06-11 15:44:33 <bonsaikitten> I don't see what value your proposal adds
1816 2011-06-11 15:44:34 lumos has left ()
1817 2011-06-11 15:44:35 gruez_ has joined
1818 2011-06-11 15:44:42 <xtalmath> which proposal landcoin or organcoin?
1819 2011-06-11 15:44:55 <lfm> anonymous land owners?
1820 2011-06-11 15:45:26 <xtalmath> pseudonymous, pgp keys or other to prove you can do with your back yard what you want
1821 2011-06-11 15:45:46 <bonsaikitten> pgp keys vs. "mah rifle"
1822 2011-06-11 15:45:52 <bonsaikitten> that should be a funny discussion
1823 2011-06-11 15:45:55 <xtalmath> LandCoin - Mind your own back yard!
1824 2011-06-11 15:46:35 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1825 2011-06-11 15:46:35 gruez_ is now known as gruez
1826 2011-06-11 15:46:41 <xtalmath> bonsaikitten: I do not propose to apply this right now. just mine and make infrastructure, bitcoin will destroy governments.
1827 2011-06-11 15:46:56 <bonsaikitten> eh, no.
1828 2011-06-11 15:47:09 <bonsaikitten> anarchy converges to monarchy, capitalism converges to feudalism
1829 2011-06-11 15:47:15 <bonsaikitten> but it's a nice illusion
1830 2011-06-11 15:48:15 <xtalmath> I am not saying bitcoin will create anarchy. It will destroy the current concept of taxing, and I dont believe current governments are flexible enough to set new standard
1831 2011-06-11 15:48:52 <lfm> they may however be cunning enuf to tax bitcoin
1832 2011-06-11 15:49:49 <xtalmath> example: construction company pays landcoins for a patch of land without buildings for a low price, increases the value by building houses etc on it, then sells for more landcoins, ... remember the mobs built newyork
1833 2011-06-11 15:50:06 <lupine_85> lfm, you don't tax currencies, you tax gains
1834 2011-06-11 15:50:18 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
1835 2011-06-11 15:50:33 <Doc_M> Governments tax whatever is easy to tax, lupine
1836 2011-06-11 15:50:45 <xtalmath> I actually would not stand against taxing through inflation, if the government was representative of the populace...
1837 2011-06-11 15:50:47 <Doc_M> and lots of governments tax currency transactions
1838 2011-06-11 15:50:47 <lfm> lupine_85: if you are gov'ment you tax whatever you can dig your claws into
1839 2011-06-11 15:50:55 <lupine_85> bless
1840 2011-06-11 15:51:18 <Doc_M> xtalmath: thats not a very efficient way to tax as the government only makes a tiny amount of the damage caused by it.
1841 2011-06-11 15:51:43 <xtalmath> Doc_M: damage cause by what?
1842 2011-06-11 15:51:50 <Doc_M> The inflation
1843 2011-06-11 15:52:02 * lupine_85 waits patiently for the LVT penny to drop in governmental departments across the world
1844 2011-06-11 15:52:16 <Doc_M> most of the gain goes to borrowers on fixed loans
1845 2011-06-11 15:52:38 <Doc_M> or to powerful market participants poised to take advantage of it (like investment banks)
1846 2011-06-11 15:52:39 <lfm> Doc_M: I think these guys figgure all inflation is caused by govment printing money in the first place
1847 2011-06-11 15:52:50 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
1848 2011-06-11 15:53:02 <Doc_M> It mostly is, lfm
1849 2011-06-11 15:53:17 <lfm> ok, so you think so too
1850 2011-06-11 15:53:28 <Doc_M> there is some supply side price increases, but the biggest effect comes from increases in the money supply
1851 2011-06-11 15:53:41 <xtalmath> nonono, I mean the following, suppose we have VoteCoin, that lets you vote on proposals according to your btc wealth, and suppose bitcoin blocks generated not only the 50btc for miner but also say 0.01 btc to a BitCoin account that somehow can only be spent through democratic discussion on votecoin
1852 2011-06-11 15:54:04 <Doc_M> why would we want democracy xtalmath?
1853 2011-06-11 15:54:11 ericmock has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1854 2011-06-11 15:54:15 <lupine_85> xtalmath, wealth makes a terrible substitute for democracy
1855 2011-06-11 15:54:21 <xtalmath> because everyone else is an I too
1856 2011-06-11 15:54:25 <Doc_M> democracy is only tyranny of the majority
1857 2011-06-11 15:54:29 sage_ has joined
1858 2011-06-11 15:54:37 <sage_> hey gusy
1859 2011-06-11 15:54:37 <Doc_M> that bit of retoric makes no sense xtalmath
1860 2011-06-11 15:54:39 <sage_> guys*
1861 2011-06-11 15:54:41 <lupine_85> vote-per-person makes for a far less horrible system than vote-per-pound
1862 2011-06-11 15:54:46 <Doc_M> "everyone is an I too" makes no sense
1863 2011-06-11 15:54:53 ericmock has joined
1864 2011-06-11 15:55:03 <lfm> Doc_M: tyrany of the majority is resistant to revolutions
1865 2011-06-11 15:55:07 <sage_> why is bitcoin falling down so much?
1866 2011-06-11 15:55:24 <lfm> sage_: more sellers than buys (atm)
1867 2011-06-11 15:55:24 <Doc_M> someone cleared out the order book
1868 2011-06-11 15:55:27 <lupine_85> sage_, prices are still relatively high, historically speaking
1869 2011-06-11 15:55:51 <lupine_85> I bought my first bitcoins at half current prices, and that's not even a month ago
1870 2011-06-11 15:56:24 <lfm> lupine_85: well we will have to see what prices look like in another 6 hours or so
1871 2011-06-11 15:56:39 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
1872 2011-06-11 15:57:08 <lupine_85> I am expecting them to go up again, 'though how much I don't know
1873 2011-06-11 15:57:28 <sage_> i bought some for 29$ a piece so i feel stupid :)
1874 2011-06-11 15:57:33 Doc_M1 has joined
1875 2011-06-11 15:57:54 <lupine_85> lol
1876 2011-06-11 15:58:16 <davex_r> sage: average down, buy more
1877 2011-06-11 15:58:30 <sage_> i dont have anymore :)
1878 2011-06-11 15:58:37 <sage_> money*
1879 2011-06-11 15:58:37 <davex_r> ah.
1880 2011-06-11 15:58:40 <phantomcircuit> i only received payment for services in btc
1881 2011-06-11 15:58:44 <phantomcircuit> so i feel smart all ways
1882 2011-06-11 15:58:46 <phantomcircuit> xD
1883 2011-06-11 15:58:50 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|coughs
1884 2011-06-11 15:59:04 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|So, who wants to send me %755 for my mining rig?
1885 2011-06-11 15:59:08 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|*$755
1886 2011-06-11 15:59:17 <sage_> how does it look?
1887 2011-06-11 15:59:17 <phantomcircuit> nameless|, what's in it?
1888 2011-06-11 15:59:34 <lfm> hehe, thas what I wonder, is how many will quit mining now
1889 2011-06-11 15:59:40 Doc_M has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1890 2011-06-11 15:59:47 davex_r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1891 2011-06-11 15:59:59 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|3 radeon 6950's, an X2 245, 2GB ram, and a 20 GB hdd
1892 2011-06-11 16:00:07 <Doc_M1> hrm
1893 2011-06-11 16:00:13 <Doc_M1> bah
1894 2011-06-11 16:00:16 Doc_M1 has left ()
1895 2011-06-11 16:00:27 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I promise that as soon as I remake the money I will repay you, with some interest :p
1896 2011-06-11 16:00:30 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Any takers?
1897 2011-06-11 16:00:36 <lfm> 20 gb hdd? where you find that? a meuseum?
1898 2011-06-11 16:00:49 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|lfm: My current desktop <_<
1899 2011-06-11 16:01:08 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I alsi have a 512 MB hard drive...
1900 2011-06-11 16:01:10 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|*also
1901 2011-06-11 16:01:35 <lfm> makes an ugly paperweigth I spoze
1902 2011-06-11 16:01:39 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Rather, I had. I'm nit sure if I have it any more
1903 2011-06-11 16:01:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|And god dammit, I can not type today
1904 2011-06-11 16:01:51 wting has quit (Quit: leaving)
1905 2011-06-11 16:01:51 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|blames the drugs
1906 2011-06-11 16:02:28 Doc_M_ has joined
1907 2011-06-11 16:02:54 Mononofu has joined
1908 2011-06-11 16:03:02 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|And yes, it is a very ugly paperweight
1909 2011-06-11 16:03:26 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1910 2011-06-11 16:05:23 <nathan7> Oh god.
1911 2011-06-11 16:05:26 gasteve has joined
1912 2011-06-11 16:05:34 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Yes?
1913 2011-06-11 16:05:39 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|You called?
1914 2011-06-11 16:05:40 <nathan7> Also, hey, a jercos.
1915 2011-06-11 16:05:50 <nathan7> nameless|: Yeah, fix the bitcoin price!
1916 2011-06-11 16:05:53 <diki> i was wondering. When bitcoin sends getwork, how likely is it to send a getwork it sent like a few hours ago?
1917 2011-06-11 16:06:01 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nathan7: hrm?
1918 2011-06-11 16:06:04 <diki> i.e a duplicate
1919 2011-06-11 16:06:16 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I'm sorry nathan7, I can't do that
1920 2011-06-11 16:06:17 <nathan7> nathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py usd 1
1921 2011-06-11 16:06:17 <nathan7> 21.1498 U.S. dollars
1922 2011-06-11 16:06:20 <nathan7> D:
1923 2011-06-11 16:06:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Holy shit
1924 2011-06-11 16:06:29 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1925 2011-06-11 16:06:35 justend has joined
1926 2011-06-11 16:06:36 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|bitcoins are up to 21.14 USD?
1927 2011-06-11 16:06:42 <nathan7> *down* to.
1928 2011-06-11 16:06:46 <nathan7> They hit 30.
1929 2011-06-11 16:06:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Dude
1930 2011-06-11 16:06:56 <nathan7> I had â¬500! FIVE HUNDRED
1931 2011-06-11 16:06:59 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Last time I checked btc they were $0.25
1932 2011-06-11 16:07:17 <nathan7> Although â¬294.059778 is still more than I own irl
1933 2011-06-11 16:07:23 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|indeed
1934 2011-06-11 16:07:26 <lupine_85> nathan7, no, you had X bitcoins
1935 2011-06-11 16:07:29 <lupine_85> it's not £ until you convert it
1936 2011-06-11 16:07:34 <lupine_85> erm, â¬
1937 2011-06-11 16:07:38 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I want to get a computer that can actually mine
1938 2011-06-11 16:07:38 <nathan7> True.
1939 2011-06-11 16:07:46 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|All I've got that's decent is my laptop
1940 2011-06-11 16:07:55 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|and it just about shits itself if I generate coins
1941 2011-06-11 16:08:02 <nathan7> nameless|: Once, my trusty atom N330 lappy could generate coins..
1942 2011-06-11 16:08:07 <nathan7> No pool, nothing
1943 2011-06-11 16:08:13 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I used to be able to generate coins on my laptop
1944 2011-06-11 16:08:19 <nathan7> erm, trusty atom N330 server
1945 2011-06-11 16:08:21 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I got 1,000 bitcoins with it
1946 2011-06-11 16:08:27 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|And then we got /.ed
1947 2011-06-11 16:08:31 <nathan7> Mhm
1948 2011-06-11 16:08:35 <nathan7> I had 700..
1949 2011-06-11 16:08:47 <nathan7> nathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py 700
1950 2011-06-11 16:08:47 <nathan7> 10260.5866 Euros
1951 2011-06-11 16:08:50 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Though I did get $17 out of that
1952 2011-06-11 16:08:51 <nathan7> o:
1953 2011-06-11 16:08:59 <nathan7> I got $47 out of my 700
1954 2011-06-11 16:09:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|we sold way too soon
1955 2011-06-11 16:09:07 <nathan7> when I got 700 it was $3
1956 2011-06-11 16:09:15 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Though I think jercos got boned on his pizza deal
1957 2011-06-11 16:09:15 <nathan7> Inathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py 700
1958 2011-06-11 16:09:15 <nathan7> 10260.5866 Euros
1959 2011-06-11 16:09:18 <nathan7> whoops
1960 2011-06-11 16:09:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|what was it, 17k bitcoins?
1961 2011-06-11 16:09:31 <nathan7> nameless|: What'd jerc do involving pizza and bitcoins?
1962 2011-06-11 16:09:35 <nathan7> Heh. Hehe.
1963 2011-06-11 16:09:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nathan7: I believe he payed 17k for a pizza
1964 2011-06-11 16:10:06 <nathan7> Yeah, should've kept those
1965 2011-06-11 16:10:19 <nathan7> BWAHAHA
1966 2011-06-11 16:10:19 <nathan7> ha
1967 2011-06-11 16:10:21 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|how much would that be in USD?
1968 2011-06-11 16:10:23 <lupine_85> hindsight, etc
1969 2011-06-11 16:10:25 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|geez
1970 2011-06-11 16:10:26 <nathan7> there's a printed google map here
1971 2011-06-11 16:10:32 <nathan7> it has an ad
1972 2011-06-11 16:10:42 <nathan7> "browse photos of beautiful women Amsterdam"
1973 2011-06-11 16:10:44 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Anyway, still looking for capital on a mining rig :p
1974 2011-06-11 16:10:56 <nathan7> nathan@armadillo:~$ python bitcoin.py usd 17000
1975 2011-06-11 16:10:56 <nathan7> 357596.7 U.S. dollars
1976 2011-06-11 16:11:03 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|coughs
1977 2011-06-11 16:11:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|OH god...
1978 2011-06-11 16:11:10 theymos has joined
1979 2011-06-11 16:11:15 flok99 has joined
1980 2011-06-11 16:11:25 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|smacks jercos
1981 2011-06-11 16:11:27 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|YOU FOOL
1982 2011-06-11 16:11:39 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I hope that was a good pizza
1983 2011-06-11 16:11:41 JRWR has joined
1984 2011-06-11 16:11:42 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
1985 2011-06-11 16:11:42 JRWR has joined
1986 2011-06-11 16:11:51 <theymos> Do you guys perceive the forum as being faster now than it was a few hours ago? (I changed some things.)
1987 2011-06-11 16:11:59 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nathan7: you maintain gribble, right?
1988 2011-06-11 16:12:05 flok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1989 2011-06-11 16:12:05 flok99 is now known as flok
1990 2011-06-11 16:12:07 <nathan7> nameless|: No, that's, erm
1991 2011-06-11 16:12:16 <nathan7> someone with an n, iirc
1992 2011-06-11 16:12:18 <theymos> gribble is by nanotube.
1993 2011-06-11 16:12:24 <nathan7> Yeah, that one q=
1994 2011-06-11 16:12:35 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nanotube, nathan7, they both start with n
1995 2011-06-11 16:12:46 <nathan7> At least one of them is awesome
1996 2011-06-11 16:12:52 * nathan7 whistles innocently
1997 2011-06-11 16:12:55 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|[citation needed]
1998 2011-06-11 16:13:12 <nathan7> citation coming
1999 2011-06-11 16:13:31 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|If one of them give me $755 they would be awesome :p
2000 2011-06-11 16:13:43 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|really needs to stop spending his money on bills
2001 2011-06-11 16:13:56 <diki> the user that paid 10,000 bitcoins for pizza...
2002 2011-06-11 16:13:59 <diki> where is he now?
2003 2011-06-11 16:14:04 <dD0T> We should all stop spending our money on bills so we can get rich. Oh wait...
2004 2011-06-11 16:14:07 <nathan7> 00:04:04 < U4> nathan7: i like you. you're awesome.
2005 2011-06-11 16:14:09 <nathan7> there
2006 2011-06-11 16:14:30 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|That's an opinion
2007 2011-06-11 16:14:43 <dD0T> nameless|: Got to give it to him. It's a citation
2008 2011-06-11 16:14:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Do you have an awesomeness certification from the international commitiee of awesome
2009 2011-06-11 16:14:50 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|?
2010 2011-06-11 16:14:55 <phantomcircuit> theymos, if you need some help making the forum faster i will assist
2011 2011-06-11 16:15:12 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|dD0T: Yes, but I can't admit that, shhh
2012 2011-06-11 16:15:25 <glitch-mod> nathan7, you do reprap?
2013 2011-06-11 16:15:38 <dD0T> nameless|: There's always /ignore when reality becoems to harsh.
2014 2011-06-11 16:15:42 <nathan7> glitch-mod: I don't own a reprap
2015 2011-06-11 16:15:46 <nathan7> glitch-mod: I'm not rich
2016 2011-06-11 16:15:52 justend has left ()
2017 2011-06-11 16:16:02 <glitch-mod> nathan7, didn't know $500 was rich
2018 2011-06-11 16:16:11 <nathan7> glitch-mod: If you're 15.
2019 2011-06-11 16:16:17 <nathan7> Which I happen to be.
2020 2011-06-11 16:16:25 <theymos> phantomcircuit: I just installed XCache and increased the number of CGI processes, which I think helped a lot.
2021 2011-06-11 16:16:48 <nathan7> Ahem, 15 and not totally spoiled*
2022 2011-06-11 16:16:54 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
2023 2011-06-11 16:17:06 <glitch-mod> nathan7, get a job and get off my lawn
2024 2011-06-11 16:17:16 <phantomcircuit> theymos, i hope you mean fastcgi :P
2025 2011-06-11 16:17:24 <theymos> Yes, FastCGI.
2026 2011-06-11 16:17:32 <nathan7> glitch-mod: A job would decrease the amount of free time I have. School already takes enough of it away.
2027 2011-06-11 16:17:40 BlueMatt has joined
2028 2011-06-11 16:17:46 <nathan7> Less free time means I can do less awesome things.
2029 2011-06-11 16:18:12 sage_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2030 2011-06-11 16:18:14 <glitch-mod> nathan7, Seems to me like not having any money is stopping you also, just use OPM
2031 2011-06-11 16:18:28 <nathan7> OPM?
2032 2011-06-11 16:18:41 BitVector has joined
2033 2011-06-11 16:18:50 <glitch-mod> Other Peoples Money
2034 2011-06-11 16:19:04 <nathan7> I got my arts and crafts teacher to consider the possibility of getting a 3D printer for school.
2035 2011-06-11 16:19:05 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2036 2011-06-11 16:19:16 <BlueMatt> hey wtf, last I checked we were at 30/usd
2037 2011-06-11 16:19:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|hmm
2038 2011-06-11 16:19:19 <nathan7> (which will be a prusa if it's up to me)
2039 2011-06-11 16:19:21 <glitch-mod> nathan7, now your're thinking
2040 2011-06-11 16:19:27 <BlueMatt> thats what I get for going on vacation...
2041 2011-06-11 16:19:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nathan7: you gave me a wonderful idea....
2042 2011-06-11 16:19:33 <nathan7> :D
2043 2011-06-11 16:19:48 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|emails the IT director at his school
2044 2011-06-11 16:20:11 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I think I'm going to get a bitcoin client installed on all the images and have them mine to a pool...
2045 2011-06-11 16:20:30 <BlueMatt> lol, what a waste of power
2046 2011-06-11 16:21:01 <nathan7> I'm considering /.ing bitcoin again to get the value up a bit.
2047 2011-06-11 16:21:02 <BlueMatt> loas so much money that way
2048 2011-06-11 16:21:03 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Hey, there's about 300 coumputers that are always on, and about 25% of those are NICE systems.
2049 2011-06-11 16:21:14 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|There's some computing power there...
2050 2011-06-11 16:21:16 <BlueMatt> but you still lose a ton of money by loading
2051 2011-06-11 16:21:16 <diki> bluematt, is it possible bitcoin to send duplicate works?
2052 2011-06-11 16:21:27 <BlueMatt> unless they are on high-end amd gpus
2053 2011-06-11 16:21:58 <nathan7> BlueMatt: Last time I checked AMD had the worst power/performance ratio compared to Intel.
2054 2011-06-11 16:22:16 <nathan7> Although Intel might lose to VIA on that one.
2055 2011-06-11 16:22:21 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2056 2011-06-11 16:22:38 <BlueMatt> nameless|: you do realize the power usage of a cpu is very different between load and non-load
2057 2011-06-11 16:22:39 <BlueMatt> no, on gpu
2058 2011-06-11 16:22:39 <BlueMatt> and wait...wtf
2059 2011-06-11 16:22:45 <BlueMatt> no amd's perf/power ratio tends to be much better than intel on multi-core work
2060 2011-06-11 16:22:54 <BlueMatt> on cpus
2061 2011-06-11 16:24:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: Yes, but I'm not paying for the power (not directly at least)
2062 2011-06-11 16:24:50 * diki 's both GPUs are the same temp
2063 2011-06-11 16:24:54 * diki like
2064 2011-06-11 16:25:04 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2065 2011-06-11 16:25:27 <nathan7> Then again, last time I checked was a while ago.
2066 2011-06-11 16:25:52 <nathan7> I don't really watch hardware because I can't buy it anyway.
2067 2011-06-11 16:26:05 ahihi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2068 2011-06-11 16:26:50 <diki> lol
2069 2011-06-11 16:26:55 <nathan7> I can't replace a single component in my desktop
2070 2011-06-11 16:27:00 <diki> lol again
2071 2011-06-11 16:27:02 <diki> i couldnt also
2072 2011-06-11 16:27:06 <diki> i mined and was able to
2073 2011-06-11 16:27:14 <nathan7> If I'd replace the mobo, I'd need a new CPU and a new PSU
2074 2011-06-11 16:27:17 <diki> i replaved the cooler, bought more ram and bought another GPU
2075 2011-06-11 16:27:20 <diki> *replaced
2076 2011-06-11 16:27:34 <diki> you dont need a new PSU for new mobo
2077 2011-06-11 16:27:43 <nathan7> It's an old Dell and thus has a proprietary PSU
2078 2011-06-11 16:27:54 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2079 2011-06-11 16:28:03 <zid`> wow, i've never seen that before
2080 2011-06-11 16:28:09 <nathan7> You can't even plain rewire the connector without some more hackery.
2081 2011-06-11 16:28:14 ahihi2 has joined
2082 2011-06-11 16:28:16 <zid`> I've seen cpus that were soldered to the mobo
2083 2011-06-11 16:28:18 <nathan7> Which I don't trust to run my computer properly.
2084 2011-06-11 16:28:20 <zid`> but never custom PSUs
2085 2011-06-11 16:28:33 <nathan7> Newer Dells don't have it.
2086 2011-06-11 16:28:41 <nathan7> They have plain ATX.
2087 2011-06-11 16:28:58 <zid`> yea
2088 2011-06-11 16:29:16 <nathan7> I'd also have to replace my case - Dell used a proprietary form factor too.
2089 2011-06-11 16:29:33 <nathan7> Basically I can throw my desktop away.
2090 2011-06-11 16:29:35 <diki> which basically means a new PC
2091 2011-06-11 16:29:53 BlueMatt has joined
2092 2011-06-11 16:29:54 <directhex> got a spare PC for sale as it happens. could make a perfect bitcoin miner*
2093 2011-06-11 16:29:55 <nathan7> Nobody would want to buy it since it's 8 years old.
2094 2011-06-11 16:30:01 <directhex> (*) has space for one single-slot gpu only
2095 2011-06-11 16:30:03 <diki> tell me about it
2096 2011-06-11 16:30:14 <diki> my old PC was a celeron 2,66Ghz
2097 2011-06-11 16:30:23 <diki> 1GB of DDR ram and an HD3650 AGP
2098 2011-06-11 16:30:28 <nathan7> but but I have PENTIUM FOUR
2099 2011-06-11 16:30:29 <diki> the 3650 is fuckered up...
2100 2011-06-11 16:30:36 <nathan7> and like 512M of RAM
2101 2011-06-11 16:30:42 <diki> but dont worry
2102 2011-06-11 16:30:45 <diki> you are not alone
2103 2011-06-11 16:30:52 <nathan7> and some GPU that NVidia denies the existence of since it's so old
2104 2011-06-11 16:30:54 <diki> a friend of mine is with a ten year old thinkpad..
2105 2011-06-11 16:30:59 <diki> 700mhz cpu
2106 2011-06-11 16:31:21 <nathan7> My personal netbook has 900MHz when it's on AC.
2107 2011-06-11 16:31:30 <diki> his max is 700
2108 2011-06-11 16:31:37 <nathan7> I'm enormously happy with my school subnotebook.
2109 2011-06-11 16:31:38 <diki> without downclock/overclock
2110 2011-06-11 16:31:51 <nathan7> (I don't consider this a netbook, it's overspecced for that)
2111 2011-06-11 16:31:53 eoss has joined
2112 2011-06-11 16:32:08 <nathan7> It
2113 2011-06-11 16:32:22 <nathan7> has like a gig of RAM
2114 2011-06-11 16:33:00 <nathan7> :D
2115 2011-06-11 16:33:18 <diki> install windows 7 and try readyboos
2116 2011-06-11 16:33:19 <diki> *t
2117 2011-06-11 16:33:25 <nathan7> It came with windows 7. I hate it.
2118 2011-06-11 16:33:39 <nathan7> Windows drives me crazy enough on a fast desktop.
2119 2011-06-11 16:33:42 <directhex> wife's old pc. core 2 Q6600, 8800gt, w7 pro, dvd burner.
2120 2011-06-11 16:33:47 <nathan7> It's even worse with smaller screens.
2121 2011-06-11 16:34:11 <nathan7> ASUS EEE 1005PX, this is
2122 2011-06-11 16:34:24 cronopio has joined
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2127 2011-06-11 16:41:03 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
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2129 2011-06-11 16:44:15 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
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2137 2011-06-11 16:53:09 ahihi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2138 2011-06-11 16:53:24 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2139 2011-06-11 16:54:01 GOP-USA_dotcom has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2140 2011-06-11 16:55:36 da2ce7 has joined
2141 2011-06-11 16:59:52 <diki> Matt:does bitcoin send duplicate works sometimes?
2142 2011-06-11 16:59:59 <diki> work it may have sent before to any miner
2143 2011-06-11 17:00:09 GOP-USA_dotcom has joined
2144 2011-06-11 17:02:15 <io_error> OK, so which one of you did it? :P
2145 2011-06-11 17:03:56 <nathan7> Hmm?
2146 2011-06-11 17:04:35 zertam has quit (Quit: zertam)
2147 2011-06-11 17:04:58 <lfm> diki not spozed to
2148 2011-06-11 17:05:47 <lfm> io_error: which one of us killed the market? I didnt but I wish I had
2149 2011-06-11 17:07:46 <io_error> lfm: Somebody found what apparently was the person who moved 17K BTC into mtgox this morning just before the massive 17K BTC selloff. It was almost all generated coins dating from the end of 2009.
2150 2011-06-11 17:08:55 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2151 2011-06-11 17:08:56 <lfm> ok, thats not who I thot then. I thot it was one of the speculators that got in more recently.
2152 2011-06-11 17:09:25 <io_error> No, they're a bit smarter than that. :)
2153 2011-06-11 17:09:48 <io_error> I figure it was somebody who was in early, forgot about Bitcoin for a while, and just now found their wallet again.
2154 2011-06-11 17:09:51 <lfm> someone like tcatm or theymos Id guess, not sure when those two started
2155 2011-06-11 17:10:16 BlueMatt has left ()
2156 2011-06-11 17:10:33 <nathan7> hmm
2157 2011-06-11 17:10:53 <lfm> hmm?
2158 2011-06-11 17:11:07 <nathan7> I'm going to laugh my ass off if it turns out to be the guy who sold jercos a pizza for 17k back in the day.
2159 2011-06-11 17:11:51 Lachesis has joined
2160 2011-06-11 17:12:16 slush has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2161 2011-06-11 17:12:49 <io_error> No, the whole block was almost entirely generated coins
2162 2011-06-11 17:13:19 <io_error> http://blockexplorer.com/b/130035
2163 2011-06-11 17:13:31 fimp has joined
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2165 2011-06-11 17:14:07 B0g4r7_ has joined
2166 2011-06-11 17:14:56 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2167 2011-06-11 17:14:58 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
2168 2011-06-11 17:16:55 slush has joined
2169 2011-06-11 17:20:12 <lfm> io_error: there are others like that lurking, ie :
2170 2011-06-11 17:20:13 <lfm> max unspent value: 280000.00 at block: 127087 2011-05-27 04:15:19
2171 2011-06-11 17:20:34 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2172 2011-06-11 17:23:48 <lfm> and another different stat:
2173 2011-06-11 17:23:50 <lfm> number of unspent generated transactions: 51693
2174 2011-06-11 17:24:23 Props has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2175 2011-06-11 17:25:06 <lupine_85> how many of them will it take to knock the value down for a significant time period?
2176 2011-06-11 17:25:42 Props has joined
2177 2011-06-11 17:26:28 <lfm> no way of knowing that, depends what new money is incomming
2178 2011-06-11 17:27:14 samfisher has joined
2179 2011-06-11 17:27:21 <samfisher> what is bitmap bin file?
2180 2011-06-11 17:27:39 tosh has joined
2181 2011-06-11 17:27:58 <ArdaXi> io_error: Like me!
2182 2011-06-11 17:28:27 <samfisher> hello?
2183 2011-06-11 17:29:39 mastermind2 has quit (Quit: http://irc2go.com/)
2184 2011-06-11 17:33:04 samfisher has quit (Quit: exit error code 434)
2185 2011-06-11 17:34:21 <io_error> ArdaXi: ?????
2186 2011-06-11 17:34:48 <ArdaXi> io_error: "I figure it was somebody who was in early, forgot about Bitcoin for a while, and just now"
2187 2011-06-11 17:34:51 <ArdaXi> found their wallet again.
2188 2011-06-11 17:35:06 <io_error> ArdaXi: Did you find 17,000 BTC and just sell it all?
2189 2011-06-11 17:35:16 <ArdaXi> No, it was a bit less, and a bit earlier.
2190 2011-06-11 17:35:23 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2191 2011-06-11 17:35:30 <nathan7> Hi ArdaXi.
2192 2011-06-11 17:35:31 <ArdaXi> It was only like 1000 when they were at their $30 peak.
2193 2011-06-11 17:35:34 <ArdaXi> nathan7: Hey.
2194 2011-06-11 17:35:41 <ArdaXi> Changed my nick to something more recent.
2195 2011-06-11 17:35:49 <nathan7> I noticed.
2196 2011-06-11 17:35:53 <io_error> ArdaXi: Nice find. I wish I'd found something like that
2197 2011-06-11 17:36:01 <ArdaXi> io_error: I mined it a year ago.
2198 2011-06-11 17:36:05 <ArdaXi> At a rate of roughly 50 BTC a day.
2199 2011-06-11 17:36:20 <nathan7> Good 'ole days..
2200 2011-06-11 17:36:25 <ArdaXi> Yep.
2201 2011-06-11 17:36:32 <io_error> Ah, maybe I can just hold my stuff for a year and sell it for $1000 each
2202 2011-06-11 17:36:33 <ArdaXi> Kicking myself for not getting a LOT more back then.
2203 2011-06-11 17:36:36 <nathan7> I still regret selling those 700
2204 2011-06-11 17:36:42 <ArdaXi> io_error: It's dropping now.
2205 2011-06-11 17:36:53 <ArdaXi> It rebounds, but the rebound is lower every day.
2206 2011-06-11 17:36:54 <ArdaXi> ;;ticker
2207 2011-06-11 17:36:55 <gribble> Best bid: 17.8, Best ask: 17.9224, Bid-ask spread: 0.1224, Last trade: 17.9998, 24 hour volume: 134960, 24 hour low: 13, 24 hour high: 26.649
2208 2011-06-11 17:36:59 <nathan7> and not putting all the processing power I could access into it
2209 2011-06-11 17:37:13 <pRjck3vC> i sole over 1500 for about £130
2210 2011-06-11 17:37:16 <io_error> ArdaXi: Not for long.
2211 2011-06-11 17:37:21 <pRjck3vC> just over 6 month ago
2212 2011-06-11 17:37:22 <pRjck3vC> :/
2213 2011-06-11 17:37:38 <ArdaXi> io_error: How'd you know?
2214 2011-06-11 17:38:13 m0m0 has joined
2215 2011-06-11 17:38:57 hereforfun has joined
2216 2011-06-11 17:39:32 <io_error> ArdaXi: Bitcoin is useful as a currency in its own right. The reason it was designed for! And it will be successful. Because it will be successful, it must be worth much more than it is today.
2217 2011-06-11 17:39:55 <ArdaXi> It will be successful as a currency when it is more or less stable.
2218 2011-06-11 17:40:04 <ArdaXi> It doesn't really matter what its value is.
2219 2011-06-11 17:40:08 DeiBellum has joined
2220 2011-06-11 17:40:28 <io_error> ArdaXi: More stability would be nice, though better merchant tools are needed now.
2221 2011-06-11 17:40:31 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
2222 2011-06-11 17:40:49 <ArdaXi> io_error: More stability is necessary.
2223 2011-06-11 17:40:54 <ArdaXi> It's not a luxury.
2224 2011-06-11 17:41:19 <ArdaXi> No big merchant is going to accept a currency whose value changes by $10 every week.
2225 2011-06-11 17:41:31 <io_error> ArdaXi: Unless it's valued at $10,000 :D
2226 2011-06-11 17:41:39 <ArdaXi> io_error: Why would they?
2227 2011-06-11 17:41:44 <io_error> Then $10 doesn't matter
2228 2011-06-11 17:41:53 <ArdaXi> io_error: Hmm, I should have been more specific.
2229 2011-06-11 17:42:06 <ArdaXi> Replace $10 with 50%.
2230 2011-06-11 17:42:36 <io_error> Oh yes, that's very difficult for merchants to deal with. We are very much still in the early adopter and true believer phase for the few merchants that exist now..
2231 2011-06-11 17:43:46 <io_error> And of course the niche markets where privacy and anonymity are highly desirable.
2232 2011-06-11 17:44:06 <directhex> ...hence being able to pay for furry porn sites with btc
2233 2011-06-11 17:44:17 <io_error> Don't forget weed.
2234 2011-06-11 17:44:33 <directhex> furries on hash!
2235 2011-06-11 17:44:56 pusle has joined
2236 2011-06-11 17:44:57 <io_error> I predict when silk road reopens registration that the rally will recomence
2237 2011-06-11 17:44:59 <io_error> recommence
2238 2011-06-11 17:45:28 <xtalmath> Ardaxi: the first problem is the tremendous exponential increase in averaging window value, as long as this is the case people hoard BTC. The fluctuations arise from high frequency trading by speculators fucking each other. What we see here is an orgy of speculation. The exponential increase however is due to innovation
2239 2011-06-11 17:46:13 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Hoarding always happens with deflation.
2240 2011-06-11 17:46:14 <Gekz> xtalmath: so where will the price stablise? :P
2241 2011-06-11 17:46:22 <io_error> You mean savings.
2242 2011-06-11 17:46:31 <io_error> Gekz: Around $5m
2243 2011-06-11 17:46:51 <Gekz> io_error: per coin? I call this unlikely.
2244 2011-06-11 17:47:23 <xtalmath> Gekz: you ask the huge exponential increase to stabilize or fluctuations on top of the exponential to stabilize?
2245 2011-06-11 17:47:30 <io_error> Gekz: Possibly. But I can dream big, can't I? :) Actually it's possible, if BTC becomes REALLY successful and begins replacing world currencies
2246 2011-06-11 17:47:48 germanMNY has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4)
2247 2011-06-11 17:47:53 <Gekz> xtalmath: I mean in general, what do you think the value of bitcoin would be in, I dunno, 10 years.
2248 2011-06-11 17:47:57 <Gekz> when the "gold rush" is over
2249 2011-06-11 17:48:22 <xtalmath> Gekz that depends mostly on what competing cryptocurrencies come out.
2250 2011-06-11 17:48:23 <DeiBellum> Here is a question... If I am a big website that wants to use BTC, is there a tool that will update my prices every 30min or so to reflect the current market prices? If not, this may be needed to get more people to adopt BTC as a merchant exchange
2251 2011-06-11 17:48:29 <xtalmath> 10 years is far from now
2252 2011-06-11 17:48:30 <Gekz> io_error: we'd probably get to the point where fiat currencies would be based off bitcoins then
2253 2011-06-11 17:48:31 LameArse has joined
2254 2011-06-11 17:48:38 mietek has joined
2255 2011-06-11 17:48:39 <io_error> DeiBellum: The shopping cart interface should do this for you automatically.
2256 2011-06-11 17:48:56 <io_error> DeiBellum: If it doesn't, it's broken and you should hunt down its developer and beat him over the head with a wet noodle.
2257 2011-06-11 17:49:17 <DeiBellum> io_error: ok, I was just wondering since I hadn't seen any sort of discussion on that
2258 2011-06-11 17:49:26 <DeiBellum> io_error: thanks for the info
2259 2011-06-11 17:49:37 Mononofu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2260 2011-06-11 17:49:39 <Gekz> I'm laughing at these high volume trades
2261 2011-06-11 17:49:41 <Gekz> causing awesome fluctuations
2262 2011-06-11 17:49:49 <Gekz> it's like a seizmograph here
2263 2011-06-11 17:50:07 dissipate has joined
2264 2011-06-11 17:50:18 <io_error> I'm laughing at the guy who cashed out this morning and crashed the price, when he could have made a lot more by trading more carefully.
2265 2011-06-11 17:50:33 <Gekz> the guy who sold 17000 yeah
2266 2011-06-11 17:50:46 <xtalmath> if you want the annoying speculator inflations to dissapear: MtGox should just use the BitCoin model of processing transactions, higher fees for faster transactions, otherwise you see the people who complain that mtgox wasnt responsive when value was low...
2267 2011-06-11 17:50:58 Weed4BTC has joined
2268 2011-06-11 17:51:07 <io_error> Speaking of which...
2269 2011-06-11 17:51:14 <xtalmath> annoying spaculator fluctuations i meant
2270 2011-06-11 17:51:28 <johnlockwood> Gekz: $17000USD or 17,000BTC?
2271 2011-06-11 17:51:34 <Gekz> 17,000 BTC.
2272 2011-06-11 17:51:37 <io_error> johnlockwood: 17,000 BTC
2273 2011-06-11 17:51:39 <johnlockwood> holy shit
2274 2011-06-11 17:51:41 <Gekz> he would have pulled out around $500k
2275 2011-06-11 17:51:46 coinage has joined
2276 2011-06-11 17:51:51 DukeOfURL has joined
2277 2011-06-11 17:51:55 <directhex> you can get almost 4 pizzas for 17,000 BTC!
2278 2011-06-11 17:52:07 <johnlockwood> good for him/her
2279 2011-06-11 17:52:18 <xtalmath> MtGox is getting very rich, dont you think he gives his own trading account priority over others?
2280 2011-06-11 17:52:41 <Gekz> he makes $70,000~ a day in fees
2281 2011-06-11 17:52:47 <Gekz> I dont think he needs to give a shit about trading himself
2282 2011-06-11 17:53:03 <johnlockwood> I wonder how much he is putting into bitcoins
2283 2011-06-11 17:53:30 <Gekz> it's all a sham, he is emulating the market!
2284 2011-06-11 17:53:31 <ArdaXi> So now... dev talk is happening in #bitcoin, and bitcoin talk is happening in -dev. Hm.
2285 2011-06-11 17:53:32 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2286 2011-06-11 17:53:33 * Gekz screams
2287 2011-06-11 17:53:34 <xtalmath> Gekz: theres quite a lot of associated costs with running an exchange
2288 2011-06-11 17:53:40 Weed4BTC is now known as LameArse
2289 2011-06-11 17:53:45 <io_error> Yeah, like the lawyers.
2290 2011-06-11 17:53:57 <xtalmath> your right lets move it to non dev channel
2291 2011-06-11 17:53:57 <johnlockwood> I wonder how Jed feels about selling mtgox
2292 2011-06-11 17:53:58 FireStarter has joined
2293 2011-06-11 17:54:56 <johnlockwood> sorry, I forgot I was on the dev channel
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2298 2011-06-11 18:02:50 Mononofu has joined
2299 2011-06-11 18:03:22 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * re051f1b / src/init.cpp :
2300 2011-06-11 18:03:22 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Merge pull request #312 from codler/patch-1
2301 2011-06-11 18:03:22 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Remove unused variable - http://bit.ly/kMXflI
2302 2011-06-11 18:03:25 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Han Lin Yap master * ra299e55 / src/init.cpp : Remove unused variable - http://bit.ly/kGyIou
2303 2011-06-11 18:04:44 glitch-mod has joined
2304 2011-06-11 18:06:13 <lorph> how do I verify getwork data so I know miners didn't just send the same share to 10 different pools
2305 2011-06-11 18:07:20 <xtalmath> Ah about landcoins: start with MoonCoins, and lets see what governments will do about that!
2306 2011-06-11 18:07:37 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a3pre)
2307 2011-06-11 18:07:48 trentzb has joined
2308 2011-06-11 18:07:55 <xtalmath> people like that idea they possess parts of the Moon, and someday it may become very valuable
2309 2011-06-11 18:08:12 <xtalmath> tritium mining companies will have to pay somebody for mining there
2310 2011-06-11 18:09:16 <xtalmath> DNAcoins: fuck the patent world, if I already bought the gene then we have prior art
2311 2011-06-11 18:09:28 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
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2314 2011-06-11 18:10:26 <xtalmath> universities will have to do genetic speculation
2315 2011-06-11 18:10:53 da2ce7_ has joined
2316 2011-06-11 18:13:15 <pusle> err
2317 2011-06-11 18:13:22 <Lachesis> bluematt, around?
2318 2011-06-11 18:13:33 <Lachesis> i'm having trouble with your encrypted wallet
2319 2011-06-11 18:13:56 <pusle> ip and patents etc should just be killed
2320 2011-06-11 18:14:03 skeledrew has joined
2321 2011-06-11 18:14:32 <DeiBellum> pusle: Not all patents, but obscure coding ones yes
2322 2011-06-11 18:14:46 <pusle> yes, all
2323 2011-06-11 18:14:49 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2324 2011-06-11 18:15:06 da2ce7_ is now known as da2ce7
2325 2011-06-11 18:15:13 <pusle> so ppl can freely build on the best to advance us as a whole
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2328 2011-06-11 18:16:15 <pusle> perhaps then we'd get medicines that actually cure ppl, instead of just mitigating symptoms so you have to take them until the day you die
2329 2011-06-11 18:16:21 <pusle> coz that's better business for them ...
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2362 2011-06-11 19:04:25 <bdheeman> hello
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2365 2011-06-11 19:07:35 interview has joined
2366 2011-06-11 19:07:47 <interview> So, how come RIPEMD-160 is used?
2367 2011-06-11 19:07:53 <bdheeman> I'm trying to build bitcoin source pulled from github on debian wheezy/testing, build db4.8.30 and wx-2.9.1, but boot 1.46 (pre-build) is causing some problem
2368 2011-06-11 19:08:09 mmoya has joined
2369 2011-06-11 19:08:29 <interview> I mean, was RIPEMD-160 selected so that bitcoin also uses a hash function that wasn't co-developed by NSA
2370 2011-06-11 19:08:32 <interview> I mean, was RIPEMD-160 selected so that bitcoin also uses a hash function that wasn't co-developed by NSA ?
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2375 2011-06-11 19:12:52 <jgarzik> interview: stop trolling, this is a development channel
2376 2011-06-11 19:13:48 <interview> jgarzik: I didn't troll.
2377 2011-06-11 19:14:00 <interview> jgarzik: I asked a question, and I provided the only reasoning I could find in an attempt to self answer it.
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2381 2011-06-11 19:18:57 <DontMindMe> interview: another answer is: hash function was needed, hash function was found. ripemd. the end.
2382 2011-06-11 19:21:40 darbsllim has joined
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2390 2011-06-11 19:25:11 <iz> interview: http://www.cryptolounge.org/wiki/On_the_Collision_Resistance_of_RIPEMD-160
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2396 2011-06-11 19:30:44 <Cheery> I tried doing a sort of script that tells from blockexplorer.com how many btc has been donated: http://boxbase.org/donate but it moans about cross-origin not allowed.
2397 2011-06-11 19:31:01 <Cheery> anyone here could explain that a bit?
2398 2011-06-11 19:31:45 <Cheery> why stuff under blockexplorer.com/q/ is restricted from client-browser-side queries?
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2408 2011-06-11 19:37:58 <Lachesis> Cheery, it's the browser moaning
2409 2011-06-11 19:38:10 <Lachesis> it's to prevent malware from stealing your site's cookies and the like
2410 2011-06-11 19:38:23 <Lachesis> and to prevent your site from, for example, emptying someone's btc wallet
2411 2011-06-11 19:39:34 <Cheery> ookay.
2412 2011-06-11 19:39:38 molecular has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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2416 2011-06-11 19:40:52 <Cheery> I wonder whether there would be a site that lets you put recv/sent -amounts on your website from some bitcoin count.
2417 2011-06-11 19:41:01 mmoya has joined
2418 2011-06-11 19:41:03 <Cheery> or whether I must make one to get one :)
2419 2011-06-11 19:41:19 johnnympereira5 has joined
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2421 2011-06-11 19:41:28 <Cheery> it feels a bit I need to.
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2423 2011-06-11 19:41:42 <interview> < DontMindMe> interview: another answer is: hash function was needed, hash function was found. ripemd. the end.
2424 2011-06-11 19:41:42 hereforfun has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2425 2011-06-11 19:41:48 <interview> DontMindMe: bitcoin also uses SHA256.
2426 2011-06-11 19:42:02 <interview> so apparently an extra hash function was needed.
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2428 2011-06-11 19:42:27 <interview> iz: yeah I've seen that. I'm not saying that RIPEMD is broken of course. I'm just wondering how you came to select that one.
2429 2011-06-11 19:42:47 <interview> Are there any ML threads? Or was it Satoshi's decision?
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2433 2011-06-11 19:44:41 <iz> interview: it might have to do with the lack of copyright restrictions or it might just be a security decision to use two different types of hash functions, so if one is broken it doesn't totally destroy everything
2434 2011-06-11 19:46:27 <interview> iz: I understand.
2435 2011-06-11 19:46:39 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2436 2011-06-11 19:47:06 <interview> Another question - quite unrelated to RIPEMD - is there a vault with slides for presentations about bitcoin?
2437 2011-06-11 19:47:15 Breign has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2438 2011-06-11 19:47:20 <interview> So that if one is lazy and still wants to present the concept of bitcoin doesn't have to create his own slides?
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2440 2011-06-11 19:50:25 <xtalmath> How exactly does MtGox calculate USD value of BTC? bids and offers? that would be ludicrous as they arent binding. It should only use actual transactions which happened on MtGox only. Give me exact formula how value is calculated otherwise its meaningless nonsense.
2441 2011-06-11 19:50:34 brunner has joined
2442 2011-06-11 19:51:48 <wumpus> xtalmath: and still, that's how every trading venue works
2443 2011-06-11 19:52:01 <xtalmath> then lets change that
2444 2011-06-11 19:52:12 <wumpus> yeah let's change capitalism...
2445 2011-06-11 19:52:14 has joined
2446 2011-06-11 19:52:21 <xtalmath> wumpus: and even if it is, he can still publish the formula he uses
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2450 2011-06-11 19:52:38 <x4nti> xtalmath: you're free to not use mtgox if you don't want to
2451 2011-06-11 19:52:46 <xtalmath> he could just add noise from a random generator just to increase speculation
2452 2011-06-11 19:52:47 <x4nti> they would never claim "objective" value
2453 2011-06-11 19:52:54 <x4nti> its just bid/ask
2454 2011-06-11 19:53:16 <wumpus> you should read up on economics and how stock exchanges work, mtgox and other btc trading sites use exactly the same idea
2455 2011-06-11 19:54:06 <xtalmath> x4nti: if mtgox just published its algorithm so I can crosscheck it would enjoy a lot more trust
2456 2011-06-11 19:54:27 <wumpus> anyway please move this to -otc, talk about prices does not belong in dev
2457 2011-06-11 19:54:45 m00p has joined
2458 2011-06-11 19:54:56 <xtalmath> value calculation is a specific algorithm DEVELOPED by the creator
2459 2011-06-11 19:55:16 Bitcoinmaker has joined
2460 2011-06-11 19:55:27 <wumpus> but not by the bitcoin dev team
2461 2011-06-11 19:55:34 <xtalmath> im not going to ask the crazy speculators who let themselves get ****ed by the much smarter exchange operators
2462 2011-06-11 19:55:49 <xtalmath> true
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2466 2011-06-11 19:58:15 <xtalmath> wumpus: if I understand correctly -otc over the counter is not used at MtGox
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2469 2011-06-11 20:00:36 <xtalmath> just trying to understand MtGox: people with MtGox account have 2 balances one BTC one USD?, if they want to convert, they have to trade with another user (i.e. MtGox is an escrow) or with the site (MtGox is an actual exchange)?
2470 2011-06-11 20:01:54 anderson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2471 2011-06-11 20:02:04 <lorph> hello how do i get transaction information that isn't related to any of my accounts?
2472 2011-06-11 20:02:22 <lorph> gettransaction only seems to work for my accounts
2473 2011-06-11 20:02:36 <xtalmath> if the former, then its just bids and asks. if the latter MtGox is just a speculator with a website
2474 2011-06-11 20:02:38 dfc has joined
2475 2011-06-11 20:02:57 <dfc> what is the maximum number of bitcoin account addreses?
2476 2011-06-11 20:03:09 <xtalmath> dfc: about 2^200
2477 2011-06-11 20:03:16 <dfc> is it 2^128 or 2^256?
2478 2011-06-11 20:03:20 <xtalmath> neither
2479 2011-06-11 20:03:23 anderson has joined
2480 2011-06-11 20:03:47 <dfc> xtalmath: where can i find that?
2481 2011-06-11 20:04:00 <dfc> aka is it in the original whitepaper?
2482 2011-06-11 20:04:50 <xtalmath> sorry its 2^160
2483 2011-06-11 20:05:06 <xtalmath> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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2486 2011-06-11 20:06:12 <xtalmath> actually its 2^202, since theres a checksum that could still differentiate different private keys with the same RIPEMD
2487 2011-06-11 20:06:27 <xtalmath> checksum is 4*8=32 bits
2488 2011-06-11 20:06:31 <lorph> can i get getblock without patching my bitcoin http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3727.0
2489 2011-06-11 20:06:39 unclemantis has joined
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2491 2011-06-11 20:06:52 <unclemantis> can the bitcoin client run on a usb drive or does it need to be installed?
2492 2011-06-11 20:07:46 <dfc> thanks xtalmath
2493 2011-06-11 20:08:00 dissipate has joined
2494 2011-06-11 20:08:12 <lorph> bitcoin relies on storing data on appdata folders
2495 2011-06-11 20:08:25 <lorph> so you don't need to "install" it, but it does leave traces on the computer
2496 2011-06-11 20:09:21 interview has quit (Quit: a)
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2504 2011-06-11 20:16:49 <gavinandresen> unclemantis: it can run on a usb drive, but you need to pass it the right argument (-datadir=/path/to/usb/device)
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2506 2011-06-11 20:17:26 <gavinandresen> lorph: what are you doing that you need to lookup an arbitrary transaction?
2507 2011-06-11 20:17:43 <lorph> gavinandresen: yes just curious if its possible
2508 2011-06-11 20:18:16 <gavinandresen> lorph: no, not possible, because in the hopefully-near-future most clients won't have the entire transaction history.
2509 2011-06-11 20:18:28 <gavinandresen> (they'll just have THEIR entire transaction history)
2510 2011-06-11 20:18:59 <xtalmath> How do I set up my own blockchain? only new genesis block or also other p2p bootstrap channel?
2511 2011-06-11 20:19:02 d1234_ has joined
2512 2011-06-11 20:19:21 <Cheery> is there a bitcoin client designed to be placed on a webserver?
2513 2011-06-11 20:19:31 d1234__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2514 2011-06-11 20:19:35 <Cheery> such one you could access through unix socket
2515 2011-06-11 20:20:07 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: see all the places in the code where it looks at the fTestNet global variable
2516 2011-06-11 20:20:51 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2517 2011-06-11 20:20:53 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: and see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=363.msg3018#msg3018
2518 2011-06-11 20:21:05 <Taveren93HGK> if something is "not possible" simply because most clients don't have the feature, won't someone just code a client that does?
2519 2011-06-11 20:21:26 Breign has joined
2520 2011-06-11 20:22:29 <Cheery> Taveren93HGK: yep.
2521 2011-06-11 20:22:54 <xtalmath> gavinadresen: whos permissions do I need, i.e. IRC operators?
2522 2011-06-11 20:23:36 pfifo has joined
2523 2011-06-11 20:25:01 <pfifo> on the bit coinwiki in the protocol spec, it show how to build a merkel tree and provices this example "sha256(a) sha256(b) sha256(c)" but what exactly is a b and c?
2524 2011-06-11 20:25:45 <lorph> search for merkel tree, abc is data split into 3 equal parts
2525 2011-06-11 20:26:11 <lorph> does anyone know how I tell the difference between someone sending me 50 bitcoins and mining 50 bitcoins?
2526 2011-06-11 20:26:52 <pfifo> lorph, There were no results matching the query.
2527 2011-06-11 20:26:54 <xtalmath> gavinandresen: https://gist.github.com/502460 is deleted?
2528 2011-06-11 20:27:14 johnlockwood has quit (Quit: johnlockwood)
2529 2011-06-11 20:27:17 <pfifo> lorph, it will be send from 000000000... if yo generated
2530 2011-06-11 20:27:21 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2531 2011-06-11 20:27:35 <lorph> pfifo: search on google
2532 2011-06-11 20:27:51 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: if you use IRC bootstrapping, sure the IRC ops will wanna know...
2533 2011-06-11 20:28:27 <xtalmath> are there similar permissions / changes i need to get done?
2534 2011-06-11 20:28:28 dfc has quit (Quit: leaving)
2535 2011-06-11 20:28:37 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: ... and testnet has been rolled into the mainline client (run -testnet, see the fTestnet flag in the source)
2536 2011-06-11 20:28:41 <pfifo> lorph, im sorry, i tried that first, wikipedia didnt really help and the rest of the pages are irrelevant, what is a b and c?
2537 2011-06-11 20:28:49 <xtalmath> yes I realise that
2538 2011-06-11 20:28:56 <lorph> pfifo: I did gettransaction and I don't see a sender for my normal transaction
2539 2011-06-11 20:29:05 <lorph> pfifo: what is the page
2540 2011-06-11 20:29:06 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: contact davout in the forums, he did the last testnet genesis block reset and said he'd write up how to do it. I gotta run...
2541 2011-06-11 20:29:16 <xtalmath> oki
2542 2011-06-11 20:29:44 <lorph> a merkle tree is splitting data in X portions and hashing them, and then hashing together neighboring hashes until you only have 1 hash
2543 2011-06-11 20:29:50 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2544 2011-06-11 20:30:00 Heston has joined
2545 2011-06-11 20:30:08 <pfifo> lorph, here in section 1.2 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Merkle_Trees
2546 2011-06-11 20:30:34 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2547 2011-06-11 20:30:45 <lorph> pfifo: its as I explained
2548 2011-06-11 20:30:57 MasterChief is now known as MC1984
2549 2011-06-11 20:33:38 <BCBot> Stats: http://bit.ly/bitcoin-irc-stats
2550 2011-06-11 20:33:39 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2551 2011-06-11 20:34:19 <LameArse> does the algorithym allow for the mining difficulty to go down as well as up?
2552 2011-06-11 20:34:24 <LameArse> if lots of people quit say?
2553 2011-06-11 20:35:13 <lorph> how do I find the sender of bitcoins in a transaction? what api command is it
2554 2011-06-11 20:37:11 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
2555 2011-06-11 20:37:29 <pfifo> lorph, im probbally pressing my luck on this one but is the a implementation of merkel tree hashing in C anywhere?
2556 2011-06-11 20:37:59 <lorph> pfifo: probably, but the concept is too easy and too general
2557 2011-06-11 20:38:42 da2ce7 has joined
2558 2011-06-11 20:38:46 <lorph> its not hard to split data into chunks and hash them together
2559 2011-06-11 20:38:50 <pfifo> lorph, ok then, what data do I need to feed into this algo and what size should I split the chunks into.
2560 2011-06-11 20:39:07 Beremaat has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2561 2011-06-11 20:39:07 <lorph> pfifo: whatever the specification says
2562 2011-06-11 20:39:20 <lorph> and the hashing algorithm used in bitcoin is sha256
2563 2011-06-11 20:39:24 <pfifo> lorph, it says, A B and C
2564 2011-06-11 20:39:33 NOTAL has joined
2565 2011-06-11 20:39:41 <lorph> that's just an explanation of what it is
2566 2011-06-11 20:39:44 <pfifo> should i verbatim pass the letters A B and C into sha256?
2567 2011-06-11 20:39:50 <lorph> no
2568 2011-06-11 20:39:57 Teslah has joined
2569 2011-06-11 20:40:10 <lorph> if you have foobar then a=fo b=ob c=ar
2570 2011-06-11 20:40:34 <pfifo> from what shource should foobar originate?
2571 2011-06-11 20:40:54 <lorph> i don't know, there are probably multiple places in bitcoin where it is used
2572 2011-06-11 20:41:03 <pfifo> ok
2573 2011-06-11 20:41:19 <lorph> does anyone know bhow to get the sender of a "receive" transaction
2574 2011-06-11 20:41:35 da2ce7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2575 2011-06-11 20:42:36 manifold_ has joined
2576 2011-06-11 20:42:40 <lorph> is my question blatantly obvious that no one feels like answering or what
2577 2011-06-11 20:43:01 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2578 2011-06-11 20:43:54 <ius> Hmmf, why aren't official bitcoin releases being signed yet? Or did I just not look probably?
2579 2011-06-11 20:43:58 <ius> properly*
2580 2011-06-11 20:44:08 <Titeuf_87> lorph, a single transaction can have bitcoins from multiple inputs, so there is not always a single sender
2581 2011-06-11 20:44:25 <lorph> Titeuf_87: but I can't even find a list of senders
2582 2011-06-11 20:44:37 <lorph> and I just want to tell the difference between a newly mined block and something else
2583 2011-06-11 20:44:45 <lorph> surely a newly mined block only has 1 sender
2584 2011-06-11 20:44:51 iamkoos has joined
2585 2011-06-11 20:44:53 <lorph> or is there an easier way to tell?
2586 2011-06-11 20:47:37 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
2587 2011-06-11 20:47:37 <jrmithdobbs> git status
2588 2011-06-11 20:47:39 <jrmithdobbs> err
2589 2011-06-11 20:48:22 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2590 2011-06-11 20:48:28 <Titeuf_87> lorph, I was looking at gettransaction, but it doesn't show the inputs. I'm not sure how you could easily get those.
2591 2011-06-11 20:48:58 <lorph> Titeuf_87: yeah that was the problem I a havig
2592 2011-06-11 20:50:05 <ius> Oh they are being signed, but an explicit mention of the signatures shouldn't hurt
2593 2011-06-11 20:51:51 davex_r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2594 2011-06-11 20:52:48 p0s has joined
2595 2011-06-11 20:52:52 <gasteve> does the master branch contain the enhancement to encrypt private keys stored in wallet.dat?
2596 2011-06-11 20:53:15 <ius> No
2597 2011-06-11 20:53:28 <ius> It's a pull request though
2598 2011-06-11 20:53:43 <gasteve> are there plans to include it soon?
2599 2011-06-11 20:54:27 Wuked has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2600 2011-06-11 20:54:58 <ius> You'd have to ask one of the developers
2601 2011-06-11 20:55:06 sanity has joined
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2604 2011-06-11 21:01:03 redMBA has joined
2605 2011-06-11 21:02:03 <gasteve> I was thinking that for a service that collects bitcoins, it would be good to have the service itself never create addresses or spend (addresses could be pre-created manually)..then, when you need to spend from the wallet, you copy it onto some other machine and do the spend (where you provide the passcode to decrypt the private keys for spending)...if the service were ever hacked, the attacker would not gain the ability to spend from that walle
2606 2011-06-11 21:02:21 <gasteve> (even better would be to not have the private keys in that wallet at all)
2607 2011-06-11 21:02:26 Backburn has quit (Changing host)
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2611 2011-06-11 21:05:00 <Cheery> I'm interested about writing a bitcoin node.
2612 2011-06-11 21:05:19 BitVector has quit (Quit: .)
2613 2011-06-11 21:05:58 <Cheery> (thinking I'm quite good at making sensible and easy to understand rpc/user interfaces)
2614 2011-06-11 21:08:13 Phoebus has joined
2615 2011-06-11 21:08:38 <Cheery> read couple things already about that. but I feel the information needed to reimplement bitcoin is spewed quite liberally into the wiki
2616 2011-06-11 21:09:14 <Cheery> well I find protocol specs and there was some desc about how to connect well into an established network
2617 2011-06-11 21:10:59 iamkoos has left ("WeeChat 0.3.4")
2618 2011-06-11 21:11:03 Tritonio has joined
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2620 2011-06-11 21:24:01 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2621 2011-06-11 21:24:41 Joric has joined
2622 2011-06-11 21:26:20 gavinandresen has joined
2623 2011-06-11 21:27:56 <ArdaXi> Anyone think it'd be a good idea if the Bitcoin client would accept new contracts as plugins?
2624 2011-06-11 21:27:56 <jrmithdobbs> gasteve: that's slated for .4 iirc
2625 2011-06-11 21:28:08 <gasteve> thx
2626 2011-06-11 21:28:19 <jrmithdobbs> re: wallet encryption
2627 2011-06-11 21:28:25 <jrmithdobbs> i didn't read your other wall of text and not going to
2628 2011-06-11 21:28:37 gavinandresen has left ()
2629 2011-06-11 21:28:55 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: tl;dr Money to service, service holds privkey, service gives privkey to you to spend
2630 2011-06-11 21:29:34 <Cheery> I get to sleep. wondering about the stuff for a night.. I guess tomorrow going to write something else first.
2631 2011-06-11 21:30:25 <ArdaXi> Cheery: A node? You mean writing a client?
2632 2011-06-11 21:30:29 <Cheery> ArdaXi: jep
2633 2011-06-11 21:30:41 <ArdaXi> I'd suggest looking at the bitcoinj source for that.
2634 2011-06-11 21:30:58 <ArdaXi> It's a lot easier to understand than the official bitcoin source.
2635 2011-06-11 21:31:13 <Joric> is there any win32 desktop block explorers?
2636 2011-06-11 21:31:24 ericmock has joined
2637 2011-06-11 21:31:56 MartianW has joined
2638 2011-06-11 21:32:27 <ius> Oh the .22 release doesn't appear to be signed..
2639 2011-06-11 21:32:46 cronopio_ has joined
2640 2011-06-11 21:32:57 kiba` has joined
2641 2011-06-11 21:32:57 <Wuked> ;;bc help
2642 2011-06-11 21:32:58 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
2643 2011-06-11 21:33:23 Cheery has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2644 2011-06-11 21:33:26 <ArdaXi> Joric: I might look into writing a cross-platform one to get a dev feel for the protocol, but why would you want it?
2645 2011-06-11 21:33:38 <Wuked> ;bc,calcd 1000000000 77
2646 2011-06-11 21:33:53 <ArdaXi> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000 77
2647 2011-06-11 21:33:53 <gribble> Error: '0.330712481792' is not a valid integer.
2648 2011-06-11 21:34:06 <ArdaXi> ;;bc,calcd
2649 2011-06-11 21:34:07 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
2650 2011-06-11 21:34:17 <Wuked> ;;bc,calcd 10000000 77
2651 2011-06-11 21:34:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 77, is 33 seconds
2652 2011-06-11 21:34:34 <Wuked> ah Kphs
2653 2011-06-11 21:34:44 <Wuked> ;;bc,calcd 100000 77
2654 2011-06-11 21:34:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 77, is 55 minutes and 7 seconds
2655 2011-06-11 21:35:07 <Wuked> ;;bc,calcd 1024000 77
2656 2011-06-11 21:35:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1024000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 77, is 5 minutes and 22 seconds
2657 2011-06-11 21:36:17 <Joric> ArdaXi, just because i have a local copy of transactions, it would be logical
2658 2011-06-11 21:37:00 <ArdaXi> Joric: What's the advantage over using, for example, block explorer?
2659 2011-06-11 21:37:10 <ArdaXi> (Mind you, I'm mostly asking to get a feel for what you're looking for)
2660 2011-06-11 21:37:48 <Joric> well i wanted to view balances in a descending order or something
2661 2011-06-11 21:37:49 ronaz has joined
2662 2011-06-11 21:37:59 <ArdaXi> Joric: How'd you mean?
2663 2011-06-11 21:38:32 <ArdaXi> You want to search through all the balances of all the addresses?
2664 2011-06-11 21:38:42 <Joric> yeah
2665 2011-06-11 21:38:48 <ArdaXi> Do you have a supercomputer?
2666 2011-06-11 21:39:03 <Joric> does blockexplorer have one?
2667 2011-06-11 21:39:08 <ArdaXi> Because doing that locally without one will take a very, very, very long time.
2668 2011-06-11 21:39:17 Wuked has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2669 2011-06-11 21:39:30 <ArdaXi> You'd have to add up and subtract every transaction.
2670 2011-06-11 21:39:31 <MartianW> ArdaXi, it shouldn't be too hard.
2671 2011-06-11 21:39:37 <MartianW> Yes, linear time.
2672 2011-06-11 21:39:41 <ArdaXi> MartianW: Do you realise how transactions are implented?
2673 2011-06-11 21:39:48 <ArdaXi> *Implemented
2674 2011-06-11 21:39:58 <MartianW> ArdaXi, of course. Inputs, outputs.
2675 2011-06-11 21:40:14 <ArdaXi> MartianW: Exactly. You'd have to link through every single one of them.
2676 2011-06-11 21:40:15 RenaKunisaki has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2677 2011-06-11 21:40:28 <ArdaXi> Blockexplorer has done this already, and is doing it in real-time.
2678 2011-06-11 21:40:37 <MartianW> You just need to use proper indexing.
2679 2011-06-11 21:40:52 <ArdaXi> MartianW: It's not the lookup that takes a long time.
2680 2011-06-11 21:40:56 <ArdaXi> It's the initial data seed.
2681 2011-06-11 21:41:17 <ArdaXi> BlockExplorer is doing it in O(n) I believe.
2682 2011-06-11 21:41:26 RenaKunisaki has joined
2683 2011-06-11 21:41:46 fadaken has joined
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2685 2011-06-11 21:42:29 RenaKunisaki has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2686 2011-06-11 21:42:48 <ArdaXi> Basically you should be prepared to have your PC running for a couple of days non-stop churning.
2687 2011-06-11 21:42:53 <phantomcircuit> uh
2688 2011-06-11 21:42:55 <B0g4r7> How hard is it to read the block chain from the locally-stored copy and extract the data shown in blockexplorer?
2689 2011-06-11 21:42:57 RenaKunisaki has joined
2690 2011-06-11 21:43:00 <B0g4r7> Is it in BDB format?
2691 2011-06-11 21:43:02 manifold___ has joined
2692 2011-06-11 21:43:04 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Depending on the speed of it of course.
2693 2011-06-11 21:43:09 RenaKunisaki has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2694 2011-06-11 21:43:14 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, the client does that in full the first the you run the client
2695 2011-06-11 21:43:18 <ArdaXi> B0g4r7: The data shown in blockexplorer isn't directly in the block
2696 2011-06-11 21:43:23 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: No it doesn't.
2697 2011-06-11 21:43:23 <phantomcircuit> it confirms and links every single transaction
2698 2011-06-11 21:43:24 NOTAL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2699 2011-06-11 21:43:32 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, why do you think it takes so long?
2700 2011-06-11 21:43:33 manifold_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2701 2011-06-11 21:43:33 <ArdaXi> It doesn't store the balance of every address, does it?
2702 2011-06-11 21:43:44 <B0g4r7> It has to come from the blocks, and nowhere else, yes?
2703 2011-06-11 21:43:44 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: It's verifying the hashes and so forth.
2704 2011-06-11 21:43:46 RenaKunisaki has joined
2705 2011-06-11 21:43:57 <ArdaXi> B0g4r7: Yes, but reading 1+1 is not the same as reading 2.
2706 2011-06-11 21:44:00 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, hashing is fast, it's running the scripts and doing ecdsa calculations
2707 2011-06-11 21:44:04 <Joric> did anyone see atleast a python script that shows block content or something
2708 2011-06-11 21:44:06 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Exactly.
2709 2011-06-11 21:44:17 <ArdaXi> Not adding up everyone's balance.
2710 2011-06-11 21:44:23 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, which is 99.99% of the work to calculate address balances
2711 2011-06-11 21:44:26 <phantomcircuit> seriously
2712 2011-06-11 21:44:26 <B0g4r7> But it can be inferred surely, yes? Blockexplorer gets all of it's data from the chain, doesn't it?
2713 2011-06-11 21:44:38 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: No, it's not part of the work to calculate balance.
2714 2011-06-11 21:44:45 <ArdaXi> It's part of the work of verifying the block.
2715 2011-06-11 21:44:49 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
2716 2011-06-11 21:44:50 <fadaken> can anyone spare a few moments to help me get my system mining?
2717 2011-06-11 21:44:53 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, you're wrong
2718 2011-06-11 21:44:54 <ArdaXi> B0g4r7: It can be inferred, yes.
2719 2011-06-11 21:45:03 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: You don't need to verify to calculate someone's balance.
2720 2011-06-11 21:45:10 <Joric> fadaken, there is a #bitcoin-mining
2721 2011-06-11 21:45:13 <ArdaXi> All you need to do is add up the inputs and the outputs. You already know the block is valid.
2722 2011-06-11 21:45:20 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, yes because it's already been done by the client
2723 2011-06-11 21:45:25 <fadaken> thanks Joric
2724 2011-06-11 21:45:26 <ArdaXi> Exactly.
2725 2011-06-11 21:45:31 <ArdaXi> So I'm not talking about verification.
2726 2011-06-11 21:45:32 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, you can do that in seconds
2727 2011-06-11 21:45:33 <B0g4r7> (assuming you trust the chain)
2728 2011-06-11 21:45:39 <phantomcircuit> linking shit together is trivial
2729 2011-06-11 21:45:39 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: For all blocks?
2730 2011-06-11 21:45:44 <phantomcircuit> for all transactions
2731 2011-06-11 21:45:44 <ArdaXi> ;;bc,blocks
2732 2011-06-11 21:45:45 <gribble> 130123
2733 2011-06-11 21:45:53 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, seriously, not hard at all
2734 2011-06-11 21:45:58 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: For EVERY block.
2735 2011-06-11 21:46:02 RBecker has joined
2736 2011-06-11 21:46:04 <ArdaXi> You need to run through EVERY transaction.
2737 2011-06-11 21:46:05 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, for every transaction
2738 2011-06-11 21:46:07 <phantomcircuit> yes
2739 2011-06-11 21:46:09 <phantomcircuit> seconds
2740 2011-06-11 21:46:15 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Are you including I/O time?
2741 2011-06-11 21:46:18 <phantomcircuit> yes
2742 2011-06-11 21:46:21 <phantomcircuit> it's all reads
2743 2011-06-11 21:46:24 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: No it isn't.
2744 2011-06-11 21:46:26 <B0g4r7> I would expect a computer operating with the power and efficiency of a typical miner to be able to verify the entire present-time chain in seconds.
2745 2011-06-11 21:46:29 <ArdaXi> You can't store all that data in RAM.
2746 2011-06-11 21:46:35 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, yes you can
2747 2011-06-11 21:46:35 <ArdaXi> B0g4r7: Not the same thing.
2748 2011-06-11 21:46:42 <Joric> a python script that dumps block? anyone?
2749 2011-06-11 21:46:45 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, it's only like 500MB of data
2750 2011-06-11 21:46:50 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: How many addresses are there?
2751 2011-06-11 21:46:56 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, i have no idea
2752 2011-06-11 21:46:58 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2753 2011-06-11 21:47:21 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, 233M Jun 11 22:34 blk0001.dat 100% of the data fits in 233MB
2754 2011-06-11 21:47:25 <phantomcircuit> and that includes indexing
2755 2011-06-11 21:47:37 <phantomcircuit> no actually that doesn't include indexing
2756 2011-06-11 21:47:45 <phantomcircuit> the index is an additional 119MB
2757 2011-06-11 21:47:48 <Joric> my local data weights 389M for now
2758 2011-06-11 21:47:48 <phantomcircuit> still trivial shit
2759 2011-06-11 21:47:58 <phantomcircuit> yes im using db4.8
2760 2011-06-11 21:47:59 <ArdaXi> Okay, I overestimated that.
2761 2011-06-11 21:48:01 <phantomcircuit> it's a lot better
2762 2011-06-11 21:48:06 dishwara has joined
2763 2011-06-11 21:48:08 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, you're off by orders of magnitude
2764 2011-06-11 21:48:15 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: In terms of block size, sure.
2765 2011-06-11 21:48:21 <phantomcircuit> the lookup times for transactions are much better than O(n)
2766 2011-06-11 21:48:37 <ArdaXi> So, the more transactions there are, the faster it is?
2767 2011-06-11 21:48:46 <phantomcircuit> ahha
2768 2011-06-11 21:48:49 <phantomcircuit> wat?
2769 2011-06-11 21:48:54 <phantomcircuit> how is this confusing at all
2770 2011-06-11 21:49:01 <ArdaXi> O(n) only means the time taken has a linear relationship with the amount of data.
2771 2011-06-11 21:49:10 <phantomcircuit> yes
2772 2011-06-11 21:49:13 <ArdaXi> If it's better than O(n)
2773 2011-06-11 21:49:13 d1234___ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2774 2011-06-11 21:49:28 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, LOOKUPS are > O(n)
2775 2011-06-11 21:49:33 dishwara has quit (Client Quit)
2776 2011-06-11 21:49:42 <ArdaXi> You're not going to get better than O(n)
2777 2011-06-11 21:49:43 manifold___ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2778 2011-06-11 21:49:48 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, facepalm
2779 2011-06-11 21:49:50 d1234_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2780 2011-06-11 21:50:01 dishwara has joined
2781 2011-06-11 21:50:11 <ArdaXi> Seriously, how can it become faster if you throw more data at it?
2782 2011-06-11 21:50:22 <phantomcircuit> LOOKUPS are better than O(n), calculating for all addresses is obviously worse than O(n)
2783 2011-06-11 21:50:26 <phantomcircuit> but not much worse
2784 2011-06-11 21:50:36 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Why would they be better than O(n)
2785 2011-06-11 21:50:44 <ArdaXi> hash tables are exactly O(n)
2786 2011-06-11 21:50:50 <phantomcircuit> ahahaha
2787 2011-06-11 21:50:56 <phantomcircuit> hash tables are not O(n)
2788 2011-06-11 21:51:00 <phantomcircuit> they would be fucking useless
2789 2011-06-11 21:51:04 <ArdaXi> No, wait, my mistake
2790 2011-06-11 21:51:07 <ArdaXi> That's O(1)
2791 2011-06-11 21:51:11 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2792 2011-06-11 21:51:15 <ArdaXi> Small difference.
2793 2011-06-11 21:51:17 <ArdaXi> Very small.
2794 2011-06-11 21:51:24 <phantomcircuit> hash tables are rarely O(1)
2795 2011-06-11 21:51:48 <Joric> so you don't know any tools except blockexplorer.com? that's odd
2796 2011-06-11 21:51:57 <ArdaXi> Joric: Err, there are.
2797 2011-06-11 21:52:03 <phantomcircuit> you can implement them such that if the program itself has raw access to ram the lookup is O(1) but in modern systems O(1) lookups are actually slower
2798 2011-06-11 21:52:09 <phantomcircuit> guess why
2799 2011-06-11 21:52:10 <ArdaXi> Joric: But Google would've told you that.
2800 2011-06-11 21:53:08 <ArdaXi> Joric: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
2801 2011-06-11 21:53:11 <ArdaXi> Knock yourself out.
2802 2011-06-11 21:53:13 jav_ has joined
2803 2011-06-11 21:53:33 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2804 2011-06-11 21:53:34 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, dont take this the wrong way but you have no idea what you're tlaking about
2805 2011-06-11 21:53:40 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Fair enough.
2806 2011-06-11 21:53:44 <Joric> i just stumbled upon https://github.com/tuxsoul/bitcoin-tools with a dash
2807 2011-06-11 21:53:46 <ArdaXi> Never said I did.
2808 2011-06-11 21:54:04 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Seriously, I have no idea how Big O notation even works.
2809 2011-06-11 21:54:08 <ArdaXi> I have a small idea.
2810 2011-06-11 21:54:11 <ArdaXi> Joric: That's a fork.
2811 2011-06-11 21:54:22 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: then why are you using it
2812 2011-06-11 21:54:28 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: To look cool?
2813 2011-06-11 21:54:34 <jrmithdobbs> backfired
2814 2011-06-11 21:54:44 <Joric> the latter looks more recent
2815 2011-06-11 21:55:07 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: I know.
2816 2011-06-11 21:55:12 <ArdaXi> Joric: I told you, it's a fork.
2817 2011-06-11 21:55:13 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2818 2011-06-11 21:55:28 <Joric> same author though
2819 2011-06-11 21:55:31 <ArdaXi> No.
2820 2011-06-11 21:55:39 <ArdaXi> The author is tuxsoul.
2821 2011-06-11 21:55:40 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: why are O(1) hash table lookups slower?
2822 2011-06-11 21:55:46 <ArdaXi> The original author is gavinandresen.
2823 2011-06-11 21:55:48 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: on 'modern' hardware
2824 2011-06-11 21:56:26 <jrmithdobbs> oh you said systems not hardware
2825 2011-06-11 21:56:30 <ArdaXi> Joric: Last commit in that fork is December 9 2010. Last commit in the original is April 22 2011. Which is more recent?
2826 2011-06-11 21:57:11 <lorph> how do I prevent people from sending shares to my pool that they sent to other pools
2827 2011-06-11 21:57:20 <ArdaXi> lorph: They can't.
2828 2011-06-11 21:57:24 <lorph> is there any way to detect if a share came from my pool
2829 2011-06-11 21:57:30 <mologie> Hello, I am right now developing a Bitcoin payment processing system in PHP. After studying the API reference, I noticed that there right now is no way to have events about new transactions pushed to me. What would be the most efficient way to pull them from the client instead?
2830 2011-06-11 21:57:30 <lorph> ArdaXi: how
2831 2011-06-11 21:57:37 AStove has quit ()
2832 2011-06-11 21:57:43 <jrmithdobbs> lorph: you can't prevent them but shares for one pool wont actually ever win on another one
2833 2011-06-11 21:57:43 <ius> lorph: Your pool software should handle it. Pushpool does.
2834 2011-06-11 21:57:57 <lorph> ius: i am making my own pool software
2835 2011-06-11 21:58:06 m0m0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2836 2011-06-11 21:58:09 <ArdaXi> Shares for one pool are not valid for any other pool.
2837 2011-06-11 21:58:14 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, because you end up with a shit ton of cache hits
2838 2011-06-11 21:58:25 <lorph> ArdaXi: how do I confirm if a share works on my pool
2839 2011-06-11 21:58:26 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, so it looks like O(1), but it's really MUCH worse
2840 2011-06-11 21:58:31 <ArdaXi> lorph: By hashing it yourself.
2841 2011-06-11 21:58:35 <ArdaXi> You should always do that.
2842 2011-06-11 21:58:39 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ya figured out what you meant when i realized you said system not hardware ;P
2843 2011-06-11 21:58:41 <lorph> ArdaXi: i already do that
2844 2011-06-11 21:58:51 <lorph> but how do I verify it is for my pool
2845 2011-06-11 21:59:02 <Joric> ArdaXi, guilty as charged, too many opened tabs
2846 2011-06-11 21:59:03 <lorph> otherwise someone could send a hash from another pool to my pool with the same target
2847 2011-06-11 21:59:19 <jrmithdobbs> lorph: you can't prevent it but they wont validate
2848 2011-06-11 21:59:22 <jrmithdobbs> it's that simple
2849 2011-06-11 21:59:34 <xelister> @13. Trolololololol ?
2850 2011-06-11 21:59:46 <xelister> the bottom falls out?
2851 2011-06-11 21:59:46 <lorph> jrmithdobbs: well my difficulty target is different from bitcoind, so I need to verify it at the frontend
2852 2011-06-11 21:59:53 <ius> The merkle root in your 'shares' is affected by the coinbase telling you should get the block reward
2853 2011-06-11 21:59:59 <ArdaXi> lorph: Your pool has a different Merkle tree.
2854 2011-06-11 22:00:12 <ArdaXi> lorph: So no other pool will have the same block header.
2855 2011-06-11 22:00:46 <ArdaXi> They might collide once in a billion years, but I think that's negligible.
2856 2011-06-11 22:01:03 <ArdaXi> (Not actually a billion years, it's possible to calculate but seriously, why bother)
2857 2011-06-11 22:01:08 <ius> Hash the share (to verify the proof of work) and check the share against your cache of handed-out work
2858 2011-06-11 22:02:07 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2859 2011-06-11 22:02:28 da2ce7 has joined
2860 2011-06-11 22:02:34 <lorph> ArdaXi: i'm looking at poold.py and it looks like it has this vulnerability
2861 2011-06-11 22:02:37 <ArdaXi> Actually, those bitcointools from gavin can already show all the transactions for one address.
2862 2011-06-11 22:02:48 * diki is fully naked again as it is very hot
2863 2011-06-11 22:02:51 <lorph> ius: yeah that is the solution i have thought of, but it is resource intensive
2864 2011-06-11 22:02:55 <ArdaXi> I wonder if it can be modified to show all the addresses in the chain as well.
2865 2011-06-11 22:03:05 <ArdaXi> lorph: That is the only solution.
2866 2011-06-11 22:03:13 <ArdaXi> Like, literally.
2867 2011-06-11 22:03:25 legion050 has joined
2868 2011-06-11 22:03:42 <lorph> well I need to know if it is
2869 2011-06-11 22:03:55 <ArdaXi> lorph: It is.
2870 2011-06-11 22:03:58 m0m0 has joined
2871 2011-06-11 22:04:05 <lorph> then why doesn't poold do it
2872 2011-06-11 22:04:15 <ArdaXi> lorph: What's poold anyway?
2873 2011-06-11 22:04:20 <ius> lorph: Is it? A 128-byte SHA256 for each submitted share? Shouldn't be ;)
2874 2011-06-11 22:04:36 <ArdaXi> ius: Isn't it two?
2875 2011-06-11 22:04:41 <lorph> its jeff garzik's python pool implementation
2876 2011-06-11 22:05:04 <ArdaXi> lorph: Pushpool?
2877 2011-06-11 22:05:24 <lorph> http://yyz.us/bitcoin/poold.py
2878 2011-06-11 22:05:39 m0m0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2879 2011-06-11 22:05:55 <ArdaXi> lorph: The actual pool software Jeff Garzik wrote is pushpool.
2880 2011-06-11 22:06:02 <ius> ArdaXi: Yeah two, true
2881 2011-06-11 22:06:08 <lorph> ius: i'm taking about verifying whether a share is for your pool,not someone submitting the same share to your pool twice
2882 2011-06-11 22:06:11 <ArdaXi> This looks more like a PoC.
2883 2011-06-11 22:06:24 <ArdaXi> lorph: That response makes no sense.
2884 2011-06-11 22:06:38 <ius> lorph: You keep a list of shares handed out, Once you credit the worker for it, remove it from your list
2885 2011-06-11 22:07:06 <ArdaXi> ius: And you keep it until the block is solved, right?
2886 2011-06-11 22:07:43 <lorph> so then i just need to see if the first 76 bytes are equal right?
2887 2011-06-11 22:08:04 <ArdaXi> lorph: How'd you figure?
2888 2011-06-11 22:08:18 <lorph> because the last 4 bytes of the header is the nonce right?
2889 2011-06-11 22:08:27 <ArdaXi> lorph: That's not how hashes work.
2890 2011-06-11 22:08:42 <ius> ArdaXi: No until the share is solved by the worker
2891 2011-06-11 22:08:43 devon_hillard has joined
2892 2011-06-11 22:08:46 <ArdaXi> A hash changes drastically if even one byte is changed in the input.
2893 2011-06-11 22:08:47 <lorph> but the point is that the pool doesn't know which nonce is good
2894 2011-06-11 22:08:52 <ArdaXi> ius: But what if a share is never solved?
2895 2011-06-11 22:08:57 <ius> lorph: Yup
2896 2011-06-11 22:09:05 <ArdaXi> lorph: It knows once the worker sends the block header and the hash.
2897 2011-06-11 22:09:06 <ius> lorph: You are correct
2898 2011-06-11 22:09:22 <ius> ArdaXi: Well, timeouts - purge old entries. Look at pushpool, iirc. it does just that
2899 2011-06-11 22:09:41 <ArdaXi> ius: I am, but C isn't my favourite language.
2900 2011-06-11 22:09:42 robin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2901 2011-06-11 22:09:46 <lorph> ArdaXi: the worker only sends the header
2902 2011-06-11 22:09:50 <lorph> it doesn't send the hash
2903 2011-06-11 22:09:55 <ArdaXi> lorph: It doesn't?
2904 2011-06-11 22:09:59 <lorph> lol
2905 2011-06-11 22:10:02 <ArdaXi> Well, okay, hash that header, see if it's below the target.
2906 2011-06-11 22:10:11 <ArdaXi> If you have the header, you have the hash.
2907 2011-06-11 22:10:35 <lorph> yes and i am just confirming to detect if a share is in the pool, check the first 76 bytes that you save in a database
2908 2011-06-11 22:10:35 <ArdaXi> Yeah, it would make no sense to send the hash along, you're right. Don't know why I thought that.
2909 2011-06-11 22:10:44 <ius> It's obviously not transmitted because the pool/bitcoind needs to check it anyway - you can't take a clients word for it
2910 2011-06-11 22:10:45 <lorph> and then purge those entries every X minutes or so
2911 2011-06-11 22:10:50 <ArdaXi> lorph: You don't care if it's below the target?
2912 2011-06-11 22:11:24 <lorph> i duno, if its not for my pool what are the chances it'll give me 50 btc?
2913 2011-06-11 22:11:39 <ArdaXi> lorph: YOUR target, not the network's.
2914 2011-06-11 22:11:54 <lorph> i think its more likely someone is trying to dos my pool if i get something below the target that's not in my pool
2915 2011-06-11 22:11:55 <ArdaXi> Then again, yeah, I get you.
2916 2011-06-11 22:12:07 <ArdaXi> You don't need to check the first 76 bytes then either.
2917 2011-06-11 22:12:16 <ArdaXi> You only need to check the Merkle root to confirm that.
2918 2011-06-11 22:12:32 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
2919 2011-06-11 22:12:43 <ArdaXi> If the Merkle root is different, the payout goes to another pool.
2920 2011-06-11 22:13:04 <lorph> yeah that sounds like the best idea
2921 2011-06-11 22:13:13 <ArdaXi> Of course, if that confirms, you should confirm all the fields.
2922 2011-06-11 22:13:25 <ArdaXi> But in terms of efficiency, start by checking the Merkle root.
2923 2011-06-11 22:13:41 <lorph> well if its for my pool and below the target, then i will pass it to bitcoind
2924 2011-06-11 22:13:44 <sanity> how can i gain programatic access to the public set of bitcoin transactions? (ie. from addr, to addr, amount)
2925 2011-06-11 22:13:44 <lorph> to verify
2926 2011-06-11 22:14:07 <lorph> sanity: i think you need a special patch for getblock, but i am new to bitcoin
2927 2011-06-11 22:14:11 <ArdaXi> lorph: Fair enough. But you shouldn't give the worker the share if only ther Merkle root confirms.
2928 2011-06-11 22:14:19 <ArdaXi> lorph: Not necessarily.
2929 2011-06-11 22:14:35 <ArdaXi> sanity: If you don't mind having to close Bitcoin for that access, look at https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
2930 2011-06-11 22:14:39 <lorph> ArdaXi: merkle root + target + hasn't been submitted before
2931 2011-06-11 22:14:44 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2932 2011-06-11 22:14:56 <ArdaXi> lorph: That can still make for an invalid block.
2933 2011-06-11 22:14:59 <sanity> ArdaXi: thanks!
2934 2011-06-11 22:15:07 <ArdaXi> sanity: Otherwise, see http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=724.0
2935 2011-06-11 22:15:07 <lorph> ArdaXi: what else do i need to check then
2936 2011-06-11 22:15:11 <ArdaXi> lorph: Everything.
2937 2011-06-11 22:15:14 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: Would you know if json-rpc could work with say MyBitcoin.com or similar? I suppose it'd have to be a locally stored wallet rather than another site hosting it
2938 2011-06-11 22:15:18 <ArdaXi> If they changed the version, the network won't accept it.
2939 2011-06-11 22:15:23 <ArdaXi> Not getting any more than 10 connections though, sipa. Is that normal?
2940 2011-06-11 22:15:28 <ArdaXi> If they changed the previous hash, the network won't accept it.
2941 2011-06-11 22:15:33 <sipa> ArdaXi: do you otherwise get more than 10?
2942 2011-06-11 22:15:36 <ArdaXi> Oh, it just went up to 11. (That was unintentional)
2943 2011-06-11 22:15:40 <ArdaXi> If they changed the target, the network won't accept it.
2944 2011-06-11 22:15:43 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: mybitcoin and mtgox both provide apis you can use
2945 2011-06-11 22:15:44 <sipa> ArdaXi: it will make exactly 8 outgoing connections
2946 2011-06-11 22:15:47 <ArdaXi> sipa: Yes. I get like 20 or some such.
2947 2011-06-11 22:15:51 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: i don't know if they're json-rpc or not
2948 2011-06-11 22:15:53 <sipa> ArdaXi: the rest is incoming ones
2949 2011-06-11 22:15:58 <ArdaXi> Oooh.
2950 2011-06-11 22:15:59 <lorph> oh yeah
2951 2011-06-11 22:15:59 IncitatusOnWater has joined
2952 2011-06-11 22:16:02 <eamon> how do i start a bitcoin pool?
2953 2011-06-11 22:16:09 <ArdaXi> eamon: Why would you want to?
2954 2011-06-11 22:16:10 <lorph> I suppose you have a point
2955 2011-06-11 22:16:12 <eamon> bitcoin/namecoin
2956 2011-06-11 22:16:14 <sipa> ArdaXi: anyway, it seems to work
2957 2011-06-11 22:16:15 sanity_ has joined
2958 2011-06-11 22:16:28 <eamon> I want to make a namecoin pool with no fees
2959 2011-06-11 22:16:31 <ArdaXi> sipa: So do incoming connections also do block/tx transfer like outgoing ones?
2960 2011-06-11 22:16:42 <ArdaXi> eamon: Might be feasible on namecoin, not sure what their difficulty is.
2961 2011-06-11 22:16:43 <ArdaXi> lorph: Of course they wouldn't gain anything from it, unless your pool becomes big in which case changing the previous hash could have advantages.
2962 2011-06-11 22:16:50 <eamon> 3637
2963 2011-06-11 22:16:55 RBecker has joined
2964 2011-06-11 22:16:56 <sipa> ArdaXi: yes
2965 2011-06-11 22:17:02 <sipa> ArdaXi: all connections are equal
2966 2011-06-11 22:17:07 <ArdaXi> sipa: Ah, okay.
2967 2011-06-11 22:17:21 <sipa> ArdaXi: thanks for testing
2968 2011-06-11 22:17:22 <eamon> I have a server. Just need to know how to set up the pool
2969 2011-06-11 22:17:23 <ArdaXi> So incoming connections come a lot slower than outgoing, logically.
2970 2011-06-11 22:17:27 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2971 2011-06-11 22:17:28 <ArdaXi> sipa: No problem.
2972 2011-06-11 22:17:40 <ArdaXi> eamon: Look at pushpool.
2973 2011-06-11 22:18:01 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: yeah it doesn't look like it. Would Bitcoinpouch have any reputation? Claims it supports it
2974 2011-06-11 22:18:01 sanity_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2975 2011-06-11 22:18:03 <sipa> ArdaXi: could you try -nolisten and -timeout=1
2976 2011-06-11 22:18:04 <roconnor> hmm, between november 6th and novermber 9, BTC fell from a high of 50 cents to a low of 20 cents.
2977 2011-06-11 22:18:06 <ArdaXi> Although, if you're just planning on mining by yourself you don't need a ppol.
2978 2011-06-11 22:18:23 <lorph> anyone know how pushpool verifies this
2979 2011-06-11 22:18:24 <ArdaXi> If you accept changes to the previous hash people could use your pool to fork the chain and, for example, facilitate double-spending.
2980 2011-06-11 22:18:24 MJD has joined
2981 2011-06-11 22:18:25 <ArdaXi> sipa: Delete addr.dat again?
2982 2011-06-11 22:18:27 <eamon> ok. I don't know PHP, will all the user pages and stuff be set up for me?
2983 2011-06-11 22:18:32 <roconnor> actually by novenber 10th it was down to less than 15 cents
2984 2011-06-11 22:18:33 sanity_ has joined
2985 2011-06-11 22:18:39 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2986 2011-06-11 22:18:45 <ArdaXi> eamon: Pushpool does not include a website as far as I know.
2987 2011-06-11 22:18:51 <unclemantis> can i get an invite into #bitcoind please
2988 2011-06-11 22:18:57 <sipa> ArdaXi: that should give you lots of "connection timeout" errors, and no connections
2989 2011-06-11 22:18:58 <eamon> maybe someone who runs a pool will help me out
2990 2011-06-11 22:19:00 <ArdaXi> You're going to need to know C if you want to make it run namecoin too.
2991 2011-06-11 22:19:02 <sipa> ArdaXi: no need to delete addr.dat
2992 2011-06-11 22:19:04 normanrichards has joined
2993 2011-06-11 22:19:09 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2994 2011-06-11 22:19:14 <ArdaXi> sipa: One moment.
2995 2011-06-11 22:19:18 Doc_M_ has quit ()
2996 2011-06-11 22:19:19 <eamon> ArdaXi: does it output the json API?
2997 2011-06-11 22:19:27 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2998 2011-06-11 22:19:34 <ArdaXi> eamon: Bitcoind does.
2999 2011-06-11 22:19:48 robin has joined
3000 2011-06-11 22:19:48 <eamon> cool
3001 2011-06-11 22:19:53 <sipa> roconnor: the 50cent peak in november was because of mtgox withdrawals that failed or something
3002 2011-06-11 22:19:59 <ArdaXi> eamon: You're going to need a namecoind though.
3003 2011-06-11 22:20:02 <eamon> i presume namecoind does the same
3004 2011-06-11 22:20:07 <roconnor> sipa: ah
3005 2011-06-11 22:20:07 <ArdaXi> Yes.
3006 2011-06-11 22:20:16 <_W_> jrmithdobbs, and you were right at the end - the change addresses is hidden in the standard client - the extra addresses generated that I can actually see are unused
3007 2011-06-11 22:20:26 <ArdaXi> lorph: I'll have a look.
3008 2011-06-11 22:20:26 Wuked has joined
3009 2011-06-11 22:20:27 <_W_> *are hidden
3010 2011-06-11 22:20:39 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3011 2011-06-11 22:21:03 backwardation25 has joined
3012 2011-06-11 22:21:09 BlueMatt has joined
3013 2011-06-11 22:21:18 <ArdaXi> sipa: Yep, no connections, lots of timeouts.
3014 2011-06-11 22:21:21 <BlueMatt> Lachesis: ping
3015 2011-06-11 22:21:29 <Joric> may i replace a newer wallet with an older one? is it safe? i assume there's only settings + a private key?
3016 2011-06-11 22:21:38 jav_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3017 2011-06-11 22:21:42 <ArdaXi> (I need a tail for Windows... gotta redownload gnuwin32 sometime)
3018 2011-06-11 22:21:55 Doc_M has joined
3019 2011-06-11 22:21:59 <sipa> ArdaXi: ok, one final test: delete addr.dat, use -nolisten -timeout=60000, and see whether connecting is slower
3020 2011-06-11 22:22:00 <Lachesis> BlueMatt, hi
3021 2011-06-11 22:22:05 <Lachesis> see my forum post?
3022 2011-06-11 22:22:06 <sipa> (should take ages...)
3023 2011-06-11 22:22:21 <ArdaXi> Joric: All your private keys are in there.
3024 2011-06-11 22:22:27 <ArdaXi> For every address you've created.
3025 2011-06-11 22:22:30 <ArdaXi> Running now.
3026 2011-06-11 22:22:32 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3027 2011-06-11 22:22:33 <ArdaXi> And 100 you haven't.
3028 2011-06-11 22:22:34 <ArdaXi> 0 connections.
3029 2011-06-11 22:22:49 <BlueMatt> Lachesis: I did...very odd doesnt make sense...
3030 2011-06-11 22:22:55 <ArdaXi> It should take... about a minute per connection, right?
3031 2011-06-11 22:22:57 <Lachesis> yeah - still happening
3032 2011-06-11 22:23:00 <ArdaXi> So long as the amount of addresses generated since the older one is < 100, it's safe.
3033 2011-06-11 22:23:01 <Lachesis> any idea how to troubleshoot?
3034 2011-06-11 22:23:01 <unclemantis> 1PBPbt14ein29bH3Ce33swWTyZvKMxMS2t
3035 2011-06-11 22:23:08 <sipa> up to
3036 2011-06-11 22:23:11 * nathan7 hops around
3037 2011-06-11 22:23:12 <BlueMatt> Im looking into how it worked on an old version, but on the latest version if keypool is empty, it should return an rpc error
3038 2011-06-11 22:23:14 <sipa> not all attempts should take 60s
3039 2011-06-11 22:23:17 <ArdaXi> And as long as that older one was made with a recent version of the client.
3040 2011-06-11 22:23:19 <Doc_M> Do you know who cashing out just crashed the market?
3041 2011-06-11 22:23:20 <ArdaXi> So why would it be so much slower?
3042 2011-06-11 22:23:22 <unclemantis> sorry for the paste!
3043 2011-06-11 22:23:24 <ArdaXi> Just due to nolisten?
3044 2011-06-11 22:23:25 <ArdaXi> I'd keep the new one just in case.
3045 2011-06-11 22:23:28 <BlueMatt> even on an old version it doesnt make sense though...
3046 2011-06-11 22:23:36 <sipa> the timeout is just how long it waits for a connection
3047 2011-06-11 22:23:38 <ArdaXi> Doc_M: That would ruin the anonimity of Bitcoin, wouldn't it?
3048 2011-06-11 22:23:41 <sipa> but connections can fail as well
3049 2011-06-11 22:23:42 <Lachesis> BlueMatt, i don't think the keypool is empty
3050 2011-06-11 22:23:46 <Lachesis> furthermore, i'm using the newest version
3051 2011-06-11 22:23:52 <ArdaXi> sipa: Oh, so even if it fails, it'll take 60s to switch?
3052 2011-06-11 22:23:54 <BlueMatt> what does getinfo show for keypool size?
3053 2011-06-11 22:24:04 <Lachesis> hold on let me switch back to that wallet
3054 2011-06-11 22:24:09 <sipa> no
3055 2011-06-11 22:24:18 <BlueMatt> backup first ;)
3056 2011-06-11 22:24:20 <ArdaXi> lorph: https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool/blob/master/msg.c lines 268-315
3057 2011-06-11 22:24:20 <Lachesis> yep
3058 2011-06-11 22:24:23 <ArdaXi> Like, it'll keep the connection open for 60s
3059 2011-06-11 22:24:24 <BlueMatt> though Im sure you have
3060 2011-06-11 22:24:34 legion050 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3061 2011-06-11 22:24:36 BlueMatt has joined
3062 2011-06-11 22:24:41 <sipa> it tries, and either is succeeds (typically quickly), or it fails (typically quickely), or it timeouts
3063 2011-06-11 22:24:55 Backburn has quit ()
3064 2011-06-11 22:25:02 <ArdaXi> So then why do I still have 0 connections? Do connections time out so often?
3065 2011-06-11 22:25:18 <Lachesis> BlueMatt, i have no idea why it keeps returning that same address
3066 2011-06-11 22:25:20 elly has joined
3067 2011-06-11 22:25:21 <Lachesis> but perhaps scarier
3068 2011-06-11 22:25:22 <Joric> would i still receive transactions sent to addresses that were in the newer wallet?
3069 2011-06-11 22:25:23 <Lachesis> why don't i own it?
3070 2011-06-11 22:25:30 <sipa> most of the IRC advertzied nodes aren't actually reachable
3071 2011-06-11 22:25:32 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3072 2011-06-11 22:25:39 <ArdaXi> lorph: So the way it verifies is by checking that the work received = the work sent.
3073 2011-06-11 22:25:41 <BlueMatt> or...better yet what does dbdump of bitcointools show (you might have to merge my branch to get it to show encrypted keys)
3074 2011-06-11 22:25:42 <ArdaXi> But wouldn't that fail immediately?
3075 2011-06-11 22:25:50 <BlueMatt> Im not sure yet...Im trying to trace right now...
3076 2011-06-11 22:26:02 <sipa> no
3077 2011-06-11 22:26:05 <ArdaXi> Hm, so that means that people behind NATs will always be stuck at 8 connections.
3078 2011-06-11 22:26:10 <ArdaXi> Oh, look, a connection.
3079 2011-06-11 22:26:12 <sipa> firewall can either drop a packet, or reply with a reject
3080 2011-06-11 22:26:20 <sipa> if it drops, you don't know anything
3081 2011-06-11 22:26:23 Backburn has joined
3082 2011-06-11 22:26:23 <ArdaXi> sipa: Ah, the drop means you have to wait 60s
3083 2011-06-11 22:26:28 <Lachesis> "keypoolsize" : 101,
3084 2011-06-11 22:26:28 <sipa> exactly
3085 2011-06-11 22:26:37 <Lachesis> and where do i get bitcointools?
3086 2011-06-11 22:26:41 <sipa> anyway, seems to behalve exactly as expected
3087 2011-06-11 22:26:43 <BCBot> Stats: http://bit.ly/bitcoin-irc-stats
3088 2011-06-11 22:26:45 <sipa> thank you
3089 2011-06-11 22:26:49 <ArdaXi> Anytime.
3090 2011-06-11 22:26:54 NOTAL has joined
3091 2011-06-11 22:27:04 <BlueMatt> gavin's github
3092 2011-06-11 22:27:06 <ArdaXi> Aww, I lost my only connection.
3093 2011-06-11 22:27:42 <BlueMatt> hm...are you sure about that keypool size...did you enter password since putting the wallet back
3094 2011-06-11 22:27:53 <Lachesis> no password yet
3095 2011-06-11 22:27:54 <BlueMatt> and is it *still* giving you that addr?
3096 2011-06-11 22:27:54 <Lachesis> should i?
3097 2011-06-11 22:28:00 <BlueMatt> no
3098 2011-06-11 22:28:02 <Lachesis> kk
3099 2011-06-11 22:28:04 <BlueMatt> as that will refill keypool
3100 2011-06-11 22:28:05 <Lachesis> and yes
3101 2011-06-11 22:28:13 <Lachesis> oh, i tried topupkeypool
3102 2011-06-11 22:28:16 <Lachesis> with no effect
3103 2011-06-11 22:28:16 bk128 has joined
3104 2011-06-11 22:28:22 <BlueMatt> do you trust me enough to send me the wallet?
3105 2011-06-11 22:28:25 <Lachesis> yes
3106 2011-06-11 22:28:32 <Lachesis> coins are lost otherwise anyway
3107 2011-06-11 22:28:37 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3108 2011-06-11 22:28:39 <Lachesis> erm...
3109 2011-06-11 22:28:40 <Lachesis> hold on
3110 2011-06-11 22:28:51 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3111 2011-06-11 22:28:52 <Lachesis> yep, still no recv
3112 2011-06-11 22:28:57 <Lachesis> just wanted to double check
3113 2011-06-11 22:29:05 <Lachesis> got a gpg key?
3114 2011-06-11 22:29:19 <ArdaXi> Anyway, the client is so dumbed down it's not even funny. The network is quite limited by it, IMO.
3115 2011-06-11 22:29:29 darbsllim has joined
3116 2011-06-11 22:29:32 <BlueMatt> want me to auth with gribble, or sign your msg?
3117 2011-06-11 22:29:38 <F4C3> anyone want to jump in on some bitcoin plugin features for magento https://github.com/jalder/Magento-Bitcoin-Payment-Module
3118 2011-06-11 22:29:44 <BlueMatt> You can grab my key by looking for "Matt Corallo" on one of the gpg servers
3119 2011-06-11 22:29:46 <wumpus> ArdaXi: what do you mean with client? the GUI?
3120 2011-06-11 22:29:48 <BlueMatt> pgp.mit.edu should work
3121 2011-06-11 22:30:26 <BlueMatt> (sorry Im on vacation in a hotel atm)
3122 2011-06-11 22:30:31 <ArdaXi> wumpus: The GUI too, but the client itself as well.
3123 2011-06-11 22:30:32 <Lachesis> no prob
3124 2011-06-11 22:30:34 <Lachesis> where?
3125 2011-06-11 22:30:42 <ArdaXi> It won't relay any non-standard transactions.
3126 2011-06-11 22:30:51 pusle has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3127 2011-06-11 22:30:54 <BlueMatt> portugal
3128 2011-06-11 22:30:55 <Lachesis> i was just gonna send you the wallet encrypted, btw
3129 2011-06-11 22:31:01 <wumpus> I'm working on an alternative GUI so ideas are always welcome
3130 2011-06-11 22:31:04 <BlueMatt> oh, that works too
3131 2011-06-11 22:31:25 <ArdaXi> wumpus: I'd rather see an alternative client.
3132 2011-06-11 22:31:51 <wumpus> I've got no problems with adding an 'advanced' mode for things that are useful for only few people
3133 2011-06-11 22:31:57 <wumpus> right, go coding then :)
3134 2011-06-11 22:32:02 <sipa> an advanced mode would be very nice
3135 2011-06-11 22:32:09 <Joric> why there's a forced fee in the latest client? personally i don't want to pay a fee
3136 2011-06-11 22:32:13 <ArdaXi> wumpus: I'd love it if I was a good enough coder to.
3137 2011-06-11 22:32:20 <ArdaXi> Joric: Because most miners require a fee.
3138 2011-06-11 22:32:20 <sipa> where you could eg. see the exact coins you have and select them yourself
3139 2011-06-11 22:32:30 <ArdaXi> sipa: That would be a great start.
3140 2011-06-11 22:32:34 <ArdaXi> And if you don't pay it, there's a chance your transaction will never end up in a block.
3141 2011-06-11 22:32:34 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: there is no forced fee
3142 2011-06-11 22:32:41 <Joric> no?
3143 2011-06-11 22:32:43 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: you are only required to pay a fee under 3 conditions.
3144 2011-06-11 22:32:44 dubious has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3145 2011-06-11 22:32:53 <JFK911> i havent paid any fees
3146 2011-06-11 22:32:53 <BlueMatt> Joric: there isnt
3147 2011-06-11 22:32:54 <ArdaXi> Basically, I'd like it if you could completely compile the transaction by yourself. The inputs, the outputs, et cetera.
3148 2011-06-11 22:32:55 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: In the client, there is a forced fee... yes, under those conditions only.
3149 2011-06-11 22:32:56 <wumpus> sipa: interesting
3150 2011-06-11 22:32:57 <sipa> my goal is transforming the standard client's codebase into a libbitcoin
3151 2011-06-11 22:33:09 <BlueMatt> (most users who complain about that have actually manually entered a key and dont realize it)
3152 2011-06-11 22:33:13 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3153 2011-06-11 22:33:16 Txyru` has joined
3154 2011-06-11 22:33:17 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: 1) You txn is bigger than 1KB (this will happen if you have lots of tiny inputs because you're doing small payouts from a pool. If you are, stop doing this.)
3155 2011-06-11 22:33:20 <Joric> cut it fuck out
3156 2011-06-11 22:33:20 <sipa> where hopefully many GUI's (simple and advanced ones) can be built upon
3157 2011-06-11 22:33:26 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: 2) your coins were just minted
3158 2011-06-11 22:33:33 <ArdaXi> Can someone please, please make the language in the client either a setting, or based on my OSes language?
3159 2011-06-11 22:33:44 <ArdaXi> sipa: Sounds very good. Especially if the lib is backwards compatible.
3160 2011-06-11 22:33:47 <ArdaXi> I don't want to use a Dutch client, and deleting the translation files is getting tiresome.
3161 2011-06-11 22:33:49 <wumpus> sipa: so on send, you'd get a list of the current addresses you have and how much coins are in them, and you can select those you want to send from?
3162 2011-06-11 22:33:56 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: 3) you're trying to send less than 0.01 bitcoins in a single transaction
3163 2011-06-11 22:34:14 Txyru has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3164 2011-06-11 22:34:14 <ArdaXi> wumpus: The exact coins. You can already sendfrom right now.
3165 2011-06-11 22:34:17 <Lachesis> BlueMatt, see my msg?
3166 2011-06-11 22:34:22 Txyru` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3167 2011-06-11 22:34:22 Spyrorocks`` has joined
3168 2011-06-11 22:34:31 <BlueMatt> yea one sec
3169 2011-06-11 22:34:32 <wumpus> sipa: I'm using the current bitcoin as a libbitcoin now, but yeah a well-defined API would be nice
3170 2011-06-11 22:34:37 <Lachesis> kk
3171 2011-06-11 22:34:48 <ArdaXi> I'd still like a plugin system where you can decide what kind of contracts you can send, and which ones you relay as well.
3172 2011-06-11 22:34:50 <sipa> wumpus: how so?
3173 2011-06-11 22:34:56 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: so the only way you're "forced" to pay a fee is if you are doing something counterproductive to the network as a whole.
3174 2011-06-11 22:34:56 taub has joined
3175 2011-06-11 22:34:59 <wumpus> ArdaXi: what do you mean by 'exact coins'?
3176 2011-06-11 22:35:04 underscor has joined
3177 2011-06-11 22:35:07 trentzb has joined
3178 2011-06-11 22:35:10 <ArdaXi> wumpus: The exact outputs that gave the coins to you.
3179 2011-06-11 22:35:14 <taub> hey, is there a way to stream recent mtgox trades without having to downmload the whole https://mtgox.com/code/data/getTrades.php ?
3180 2011-06-11 22:35:33 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Are you required by the client to pay a fee if the priority is too low as well?
3181 2011-06-11 22:35:33 <F4C3> why not just work over the rpc? thats a well defined api
3182 2011-06-11 22:35:46 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: 16:28 < jrmithdobbs> Joric: 2) your coins were just minted
3183 2011-06-11 22:35:48 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: And 3) isn't really counter-productive to the network.
3184 2011-06-11 22:35:48 cronopio_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
3185 2011-06-11 22:35:49 <ArdaXi> F4C3: Why would you use RPC locally?
3186 2011-06-11 22:35:51 <sipa> wumpus: i mean things like you should be able to replace all components yourself, including writing a custom wallet implementation that uses an sql database, or only stored temporarily in memory
3187 2011-06-11 22:35:53 <wumpus> sipa: well I've changed the directory structure now to be the same as the original bitcoin client, but I used to build a library from bitcoin minus GUI stuff and link that to my Qt gui
3188 2011-06-11 22:35:54 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Yes, that's why I was asking that question.
3189 2011-06-11 22:35:56 <F4C3> because it works?
3190 2011-06-11 22:35:59 <ArdaXi> Really, for a GUI that sounds horribly inefficient.
3191 2011-06-11 22:36:05 <ArdaXi> Does the client enforce a certain priority?
3192 2011-06-11 22:36:10 <ArdaXi> Besides, you can't do everything over RPC either.
3193 2011-06-11 22:36:13 <ArdaXi> Because people told me it did, and people told me it didn't.
3194 2011-06-11 22:36:18 <F4C3> most things a basic clientwould need
3195 2011-06-11 22:36:28 <sipa> wumpus: are you the one doing the QT gui?
3196 2011-06-11 22:36:31 <wumpus> sipa: yes
3197 2011-06-11 22:36:36 <sipa> oh, nice
3198 2011-06-11 22:36:38 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: pretty sure it does. i forget the exact criteria
3199 2011-06-11 22:36:39 <sipa> how is it going?
3200 2011-06-11 22:36:40 <ArdaXi> F4C3: Still, why would you prefer RPC over DLL calls?
3201 2011-06-11 22:36:51 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: The wiki doesn't have the exact criterium, if any, either.
3202 2011-06-11 22:36:58 <F4C3> mostly because im a web app developer, so im biased towards sockets
3203 2011-06-11 22:37:04 <ArdaXi> Better question: do any of the miners?
3204 2011-06-11 22:37:05 <ArdaXi> F4C3: On the web, that's awesome.
3205 2011-06-11 22:37:08 <ArdaXi> Locally? Not so much.
3206 2011-06-11 22:37:12 <Joric> lots of tiny inputs? how much of 0.01s i would send to get over 1kb?
3207 2011-06-11 22:37:16 <wumpus> it's feature complete now (can do everything the wx gui can do)
3208 2011-06-11 22:37:18 kiba` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3209 2011-06-11 22:37:26 <sipa> wumpus: very nice
3210 2011-06-11 22:37:31 <ArdaXi> Maybe if you want one bitcoin daemon and multiple GUIs on the same system, that would work. But I don't think you would.
3211 2011-06-11 22:37:33 <eamon> Hi, can anybody help me I'm trying to set up a pool...
3212 2011-06-11 22:37:38 <sipa> wumpus: did you need to change match in the bitcoin code?
3213 2011-06-11 22:37:40 <sipa> *much
3214 2011-06-11 22:37:49 <ArdaXi> Joric: That depends on the amount you're sending.
3215 2011-06-11 22:38:07 <eamon> Hi, can anybody help me I'm trying to set up a pool... I will appreciate it very much
3216 2011-06-11 22:38:12 <F4C3> i look at solutions like a web hosted gui from your local server, which you can access on wifi with any device, or remotely when safely tunneled in
3217 2011-06-11 22:38:15 <ArdaXi> eamon: Asking once will be enough.
3218 2011-06-11 22:38:22 <wumpus> sipa: very few
3219 2011-06-11 22:38:31 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: stop taking payouts that small.
3220 2011-06-11 22:38:34 <sipa> wumpus: nice, that means we'll be able to combine it nicely
3221 2011-06-11 22:38:36 <ArdaXi> F4C3: Right, but that still wouldn't justify RPC
3222 2011-06-11 22:38:39 <F4C3> i definitely agree with your points ArdaXi
3223 2011-06-11 22:38:40 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
3224 2011-06-11 22:38:47 <sipa> wumpus: any timeframe for a 'stable release' ?
3225 2011-06-11 22:38:48 <wumpus> sipa: I'm really waiting for the autotools to make it in before I can sanely integrate it
3226 2011-06-11 22:38:53 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: to get those sent without a fee you're going to have to send them all, individually to another address you control before making your large xfer to whereever you're trying to
3227 2011-06-11 22:38:57 <eamon> ArdaXi: I can't edit in IRC, I wanted to show appreciation
3228 2011-06-11 22:38:59 <ArdaXi> RPC is suitable for many-to-one, not for one-to-one.
3229 2011-06-11 22:39:01 <F4C3> just saying my point of view
3230 2011-06-11 22:39:06 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: one at a time
3231 2011-06-11 22:39:09 <sipa> wumpus: autotools may well be the first thing that will be merged after 0.3.23 is released
3232 2011-06-11 22:39:12 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: That wouldn't help.
3233 2011-06-11 22:39:18 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: it absolutely would
3234 2011-06-11 22:39:20 <ArdaXi> Then they're still all referenced as one input.
3235 2011-06-11 22:39:20 <Joric> i afraid lots of people doing this currenly
3236 2011-06-11 22:39:29 Doc_M has quit ()
3237 2011-06-11 22:39:33 <wumpus> sipa: well I could do a separate release, but I think the eventual goal will be to make it as an alternative GUI into the main source
3238 2011-06-11 22:39:34 <Joric> most miners allow 0.01 payout
3239 2011-06-11 22:39:38 dishwara has quit (Quit: Buy my shares DISHWARA @ glbse.com)
3240 2011-06-11 22:39:38 <ArdaXi> F4C3: I think the confusing part is saying GUI.
3241 2011-06-11 22:39:40 <F4C3> case and point, im the kind ofperson that runs music player daemon, then uses an array of gui to connect
3242 2011-06-11 22:39:44 echelon has left ("Leaving")
3243 2011-06-11 22:39:48 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Mind you, a transaction's input is referenced as the output that created it, not the address that received it.
3244 2011-06-11 22:39:51 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: yup because tycho encourages and just tells people to downgrade because he doesn't understand what's really going on
3245 2011-06-11 22:39:52 <ArdaXi> Basically, you'd have that lib, and clients that use it.
3246 2011-06-11 22:39:55 <sipa> wumpus: i definitely hope we can merge it
3247 2011-06-11 22:39:59 <ArdaXi> That can be a GUI, a CLI or a daemon.
3248 2011-06-11 22:40:01 <wumpus> sipa: currently, to use it you need to build from source
3249 2011-06-11 22:40:10 falafell1 has joined
3250 2011-06-11 22:40:14 <ArdaXi> If you want your daemon, you take your bitcoind that uses the lib.
3251 2011-06-11 22:40:14 <wumpus> sipa: from git
3252 2011-06-11 22:40:15 <ArdaXi> So every individual payment, even to the same address, is referenced individually in the larger transaction.
3253 2011-06-11 22:40:26 <F4C3> no need to school me ArdaXi
3254 2011-06-11 22:40:32 <sipa> wumpus: but your saying that you needed very few changes to the backend assures me that merging won't be hard
3255 2011-06-11 22:40:33 <ArdaXi> The only way to combine them is to send them to another output together, which incurs fees.
3256 2011-06-11 22:40:34 <F4C3> just discussing
3257 2011-06-11 22:40:37 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: yes but if you xfer them all individually to a new address and then send it once you can minimize the fees you pay
3258 2011-06-11 22:40:42 <jrmithdobbs> oh this is fun
3259 2011-06-11 22:40:51 <wumpus> ArdaXi: yes, I thought about using the JSONRPC interface, but it doesn't have all the functionality and no notifications of changes, so it'd require a lot of polling
3260 2011-06-11 22:40:52 <jrmithdobbs> terminate called without an active exception
3261 2011-06-11 22:40:53 <jrmithdobbs> once you've done it there's no way to fix it
3262 2011-06-11 22:40:54 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Not really. If you send them all individually, the amount of fees is equal.
3263 2011-06-11 22:40:56 <ArdaXi> F4C3: What I thought you were suggesting was to have that daemon always running, and GUIs connecting over RPC
3264 2011-06-11 22:40:59 <jrmithdobbs> you're going to pay a fee of some sort
3265 2011-06-11 22:41:00 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3266 2011-06-11 22:41:01 <jrmithdobbs> then Bitcoin.app shits itself
3267 2011-06-11 22:41:12 <ArdaXi> You could, however, combine 10 0.01 coins by first combining them into 0.02 coins
3268 2011-06-11 22:41:13 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: no because each one is a sep txn that wont require a fee
3269 2011-06-11 22:41:20 <ArdaXi> Rather than having the daemon as a client together with others.
3270 2011-06-11 22:41:23 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Yes, but in the end, they're still 10 outputs.
3271 2011-06-11 22:41:25 <wumpus> sipa: yes it's basically adding a new #ifdef macro for the QT GUI, which disables the stuff in ui.h and noui.h and uses an alternative main function
3272 2011-06-11 22:41:34 falafell has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3273 2011-06-11 22:41:34 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: You started with 10 outputs, and you end up with 10 outputs.
3274 2011-06-11 22:41:44 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Yeah, I know it isn't feasible. It'd be inefficient too.
3275 2011-06-11 22:42:00 <jrmithdobbs> actually you're right, you need to combine them into larger inputs successively
3276 2011-06-11 22:42:07 <sipa> wumpus: nice, but i assume you had to rewrite/copy some code from the GUI itself?
3277 2011-06-11 22:42:11 <jrmithdobbs> lesson: don't take such tiny payouts it hurts you in the long run
3278 2011-06-11 22:42:13 <sipa> wumpus: the wx GUI i mean
3279 2011-06-11 22:42:21 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Exactly. So you could do it by combining them into ever-increasing outputs.
3280 2011-06-11 22:42:30 <F4C3> ArdaXi, thats what i was suggesting. but im not preaching it or being a fanboy.
3281 2011-06-11 22:42:33 <sipa> since it seems to do quite some things which belong in the layer beneath the gui
3282 2011-06-11 22:42:37 <ArdaXi> Which is actually more hurtful to the network, which is why I find the current system so strange.
3283 2011-06-11 22:42:39 <wumpus> sipa: yes, I had to rewrite quite a lot of stuff
3284 2011-06-11 22:42:50 <jrmithdobbs> stack trace looks like it reads in wallet does DecodeBase58Check then terminates
3285 2011-06-11 22:42:52 swos has joined
3286 2011-06-11 22:42:55 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: thoughts on that?
3287 2011-06-11 22:42:55 <wumpus> sipa: I really underestimated that in the beginning :) I made the dialogs etc and thought I was almost finished
3288 2011-06-11 22:42:57 <wumpus> he he
3289 2011-06-11 22:43:01 pfifo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3290 2011-06-11 22:43:04 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the wallet works on a bitcoind running on linux
3291 2011-06-11 22:43:06 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: because doing so is so tedius that most wont and just take the "stop taking tiny pool payouts" lesson to heart and eat the fee from before they realized it
3292 2011-06-11 22:43:13 <ArdaXi> F4C3: I don't think it's a good idea, because running the daemon directly or using a lib does not incur any additional performance costs.
3293 2011-06-11 22:43:14 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: it's when exiting?
3294 2011-06-11 22:43:19 <Joric> what if i'll transfer all funds to the new wallet, will it help?
3295 2011-06-11 22:43:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: at startup before catching up on blockchain
3296 2011-06-11 22:43:24 <jrmithdobbs> no
3297 2011-06-11 22:43:30 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ieuw, that's bad
3298 2011-06-11 22:43:34 <ArdaXi> Whereas running a GUI using a daemon is slower than using a lib.
3299 2011-06-11 22:43:35 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: gui launches tho
3300 2011-06-11 22:43:39 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: can you show me the stack trace?
3301 2011-06-11 22:43:43 <wumpus> sipa: libbitcoin is a good idea, there's quite a few things that should be in the core
3302 2011-06-11 22:43:44 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: "Bitcoins are divisible to 8 decimal places. We are very proud of this fact. Please don't use more than two."
3303 2011-06-11 22:43:56 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: unless you understand what me and ArdaXi were just talking about, and that question shows you don't, you just need to suck it up and eat the fee
3304 2011-06-11 22:43:56 jav_ has joined
3305 2011-06-11 22:44:03 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: and stop taking tiny payouts in the future
3306 2011-06-11 22:44:04 dubious has joined
3307 2011-06-11 22:44:06 <Joric> i mean, will it help me to avoid fees? i don't care about the network
3308 2011-06-11 22:44:10 <jrmithdobbs> running 3.22 btw not one of my kludge builds
3309 2011-06-11 22:44:11 <wumpus> sipa: such as nice accessing of the wallet, without having to do mutex locking in the client code
3310 2011-06-11 22:44:27 <jrmithdobbs> actually, might be 3.21
3311 2011-06-11 22:44:29 <wumpus> sipa: same for address book
3312 2011-06-11 22:44:40 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: yes it's retarded, no it wasn't my call, no i don't care
3313 2011-06-11 22:44:40 <ArdaXi> Joric: Erm... that's not a very good attitude to get help here.
3314 2011-06-11 22:44:46 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: http://pastebin.com/YBgKxLgG
3315 2011-06-11 22:44:52 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: :)
3316 2011-06-11 22:44:58 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: I know, I'm not talking to you personally.
3317 2011-06-11 22:44:58 <D0han> i would love to get bitcoin.dll
3318 2011-06-11 22:45:03 WakiMiko_ has joined
3319 2011-06-11 22:45:04 <ArdaXi> Just pointing out the lack of logic.
3320 2011-06-11 22:45:10 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: there's planned work to make <0.01 txns more feasible
3321 2011-06-11 22:45:23 <ArdaXi> I still believe we need a Bitcoin for Advanced Users.
3322 2011-06-11 22:45:29 <ArdaXi> Having bitcoin.dll would also mean I could create a C# library that wouldn't be too much slower than the C++ one.
3323 2011-06-11 22:45:36 hachque has joined
3324 2011-06-11 22:45:38 <ArdaXi> Where you can override transaction fees, insert your own contracts, et cetera.
3325 2011-06-11 22:46:04 <wumpus> then again, the bitcoin network is slow anyway ArdaXi, it's not like you can do high frequency trading on it :p
3326 2011-06-11 22:46:20 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Yes, but a GUI that responds slowly is very annoying.
3327 2011-06-11 22:46:31 <jav_> can someone explain this mining profitability chart to me? http://tvori.info/bitcoin/charts/ ... isn't mining profit just a function of current difficulty and current market price? since difficulty only changes from time to time, shouldn't the green profit line in that chart be more in lockstep to the market price?
3328 2011-06-11 22:46:35 <quellhorst> wumpus: man, i wish you could do high freq trading :)
3329 2011-06-11 22:46:39 <ArdaXi> wumpus: As well as block verification and such.
3330 2011-06-11 22:46:44 <D0han> jav_: #bitcoin-mining
3331 2011-06-11 22:47:01 <ArdaXi> If I know there's a miner out there that will take my transaction for 0.000005 BTC, I want that option.
3332 2011-06-11 22:47:13 <wumpus> ArdaXi: that's mostly about having intelligent interfaces, such as queries that return only the rows that you need, asynchronous notifications, etc
3333 2011-06-11 22:47:16 <jav_> D0han: aw, thx, I'll ask there
3334 2011-06-11 22:47:18 <ArdaXi> If I know there's one who'll do it for free, I want that option too.
3335 2011-06-11 22:47:25 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: it's 3.21
3336 2011-06-11 22:47:39 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3337 2011-06-11 22:47:40 <jrmithdobbs> weird, this time it decided to start up just fine, haha what
3338 2011-06-11 22:47:44 <jrmithdobbs> did it 3 times in a row for me
3339 2011-06-11 22:47:46 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: /msg
3340 2011-06-11 22:47:46 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Yes, but without bitcoin.dll, I would have to do the entire client in C#.
3341 2011-06-11 22:47:59 <_W_> why /msg?
3342 2011-06-11 22:48:20 <ArdaXi> Huh?
3343 2011-06-11 22:48:21 <wumpus> ArdaXi: true
3344 2011-06-11 22:48:24 swos has quit ()
3345 2011-06-11 22:48:25 Weed4BTC has joined
3346 2011-06-11 22:48:27 * _W_ doesn't think there's anything being discussed that everyone shouldn't hear
3347 2011-06-11 22:48:35 jostmey has joined
3348 2011-06-11 22:48:37 <_W_> personally, I would love more info in the client
3349 2011-06-11 22:48:38 <wumpus> ArdaXi: once you have libbitcoin you could make bindings for all kinds of programming languages
3350 2011-06-11 22:48:40 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: you're welcome to patch those features in if you'd like
3351 2011-06-11 22:48:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i may have rsync'ed a wallet.dat that hadn't been fflush()'ed i suppose
3352 2011-06-11 22:48:48 <jrmithdobbs> stupid bdb
3353 2011-06-11 22:48:53 dissipate has joined
3354 2011-06-11 22:48:54 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: shouldn't happen nonetheless
3355 2011-06-11 22:48:54 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Yep, and GUIs would not have to be updated for incremental Bitcoin updates.
3356 2011-06-11 22:48:55 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Oh, no, I'm nowhere near good enough at C++ to even try.
3357 2011-06-11 22:49:11 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya seemed weird to me too why I mentioned
3358 2011-06-11 22:49:17 <ArdaXi> Are there any plans of adding auto-updating to the official client?
3359 2011-06-11 22:49:21 <_W_> e.g. I hear that a payment actually transfers all money out of an account and gives your change back to another - I don't see a way to see this account in the client
3360 2011-06-11 22:49:29 <Joric> and where the hell this fee goes? does it just dissapear? who receives it?
3361 2011-06-11 22:49:31 <_W_> ArdaXi, I hear rumours about a Java client as well
3362 2011-06-11 22:49:32 <sipa> ArdaXi: no, but maybe a script that checks for new releases
3363 2011-06-11 22:49:39 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: miners receive it
3364 2011-06-11 22:49:39 <_W_> Joric, pay attention
3365 2011-06-11 22:49:39 <ArdaXi> Joric: The miner including it in the block gets it.
3366 2011-06-11 22:49:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: argh, and debug.log overwrites itself when being restarted so no idea what that said
3367 2011-06-11 22:49:48 <ArdaXi> _W_: Not just rumours, that's bitcoinj.
3368 2011-06-11 22:49:51 <ArdaXi> But it's a lite client.
3369 2011-06-11 22:49:52 minemoney` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3370 2011-06-11 22:50:06 <wumpus> auto-updating? wouldn't that make it too easy for a hacker to update the rules of the network
3371 2011-06-11 22:50:07 <_W_> ArdaXi, ok, poor choice of words. "I heard it mentioned once, but didn't pay attention" :p
3372 2011-06-11 22:50:13 sanity_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3373 2011-06-11 22:50:26 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Not really.
3374 2011-06-11 22:50:33 <ArdaXi> The rules of the network are set by the miners, not the users.
3375 2011-06-11 22:50:44 <sipa> some rules, yes
3376 2011-06-11 22:50:50 <ArdaXi> And _W_: Fairly sure that account is shown somewhere in the address book. Might be the active one, I'm not sure.
3377 2011-06-11 22:50:51 <wumpus> the miners also use the client
3378 2011-06-11 22:50:53 <ArdaXi> sipa: Well, excluding relay rules.
3379 2011-06-11 22:50:54 <wumpus> many of them do
3380 2011-06-11 22:50:56 sanity has joined
3381 2011-06-11 22:50:59 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3382 2011-06-11 22:51:01 <ArdaXi> wumpus: They use bitcoind, but not bitcoin.
3383 2011-06-11 22:51:06 <wumpus> that's also the client
3384 2011-06-11 22:51:15 <jrmithdobbs> actually the address is specifically filtered from being shown
3385 2011-06-11 22:51:16 <_W_> oh, I see - that's why I suddenly have two unnamed accounts instead of one
3386 2011-06-11 22:51:17 <ArdaXi> wumpus: It's not what I was suggesting adding auto-updating to.
3387 2011-06-11 22:51:20 <_W_> oh
3388 2011-06-11 22:51:24 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Why is that?
3389 2011-06-11 22:51:32 <jrmithdobbs> no idea, seems weird to me too
3390 2011-06-11 22:51:35 <wumpus> bitcoin and bitcoind are really the same except for two .o files :)
3391 2011-06-11 22:51:40 <Joric> nobody would use a client newer than 3.20 anyway because of a forced fee
3392 2011-06-11 22:51:43 eoss has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3393 2011-06-11 22:51:43 <Joric> who are you talking about
3394 2011-06-11 22:51:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: wasn't doing anything tricky either, just rsync'ed wallet (that hasn't had any new txns out in >72 hours) then open /Applications/Bitcoin.app --args -nolisten -noirc -connect=
3395 2011-06-11 22:51:48 <jrmithdobbs> wait no, the address should be shown, but the change txn itself is not
3396 2011-06-11 22:51:55 <ArdaXi> Joric: Please learn about the protocol before speaking in here, it's getting a bit annoying.
3397 2011-06-11 22:52:00 <ArdaXi> Exactly, an advanced Bitcoin would show every transaction involving every address in your wallet.
3398 2011-06-11 22:52:07 <sipa> Joric: 0.3.23 will have a lot smaller minimum fees
3399 2011-06-11 22:52:15 <jrmithdobbs> _W_: the gui doesn't actually support the concept of "accounts" you have to use bitcoin+json-rpc if you want to use that
3400 2011-06-11 22:52:27 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: (I think he means addresses)
3401 2011-06-11 22:52:29 <jrmithdobbs> err s/bitcoin+/bitcoind+/
3402 2011-06-11 22:52:32 <ArdaXi> Joric: Long story short, if you keep that attitude up, soon enough every single transaction you make will fail.
3403 2011-06-11 22:52:34 <_W_> jrmithdobbs, which is a good tip, I need to look into that soon
3404 2011-06-11 22:52:38 <gjs278> my client just paid a .02 fee for 2.0 coin send...
3405 2011-06-11 22:52:44 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: for the 3rd time today there's not forced fees unless you're doing something you shouldn't be anyways
3406 2011-06-11 22:52:50 <ArdaXi> And you could just use bitcoind, no need to use json-rpc yourself.
3407 2011-06-11 22:52:52 jostmey has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3408 2011-06-11 22:53:00 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: "Which you shouldn't be doing" I find this a very strange statement.
3409 2011-06-11 22:53:10 <gjs278> all I did was "bitcoind sendtoaddress THEADDRESS 2.0"
3410 2011-06-11 22:53:13 <gjs278> and it took .02 from me
3411 2011-06-11 22:53:29 zomtec has joined
3412 2011-06-11 22:53:29 jav_ has joined
3413 2011-06-11 22:53:33 <ArdaXi> gjs278: Were they recently received coins?
3414 2011-06-11 22:53:39 <gjs278> like 5 minutes ago
3415 2011-06-11 22:53:43 <ArdaXi> That's why.
3416 2011-06-11 22:53:44 <denisx> what says bitcoind getinfo what the fee is?
3417 2011-06-11 22:53:46 <_W_> though I might well spend some time looking into the Java client as well, perhaps see if I can contribute
3418 2011-06-11 22:53:49 <jrmithdobbs> yes you can use the built-in json-rpc client
3419 2011-06-11 22:54:00 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: "Having bitcoin.dll would also mean I could create a C# library that wouldn't be too much slower than the C++ one." I find this a very strange statement.
3420 2011-06-11 22:54:08 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: see I can do that too
3421 2011-06-11 22:54:14 <jrmithdobbs> _W_: it's not in a usable state quite yet and being a 'thin' client it has some limitations
3422 2011-06-11 22:54:18 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: C# is slower than C++. Not very significantly, but it still is.
3423 2011-06-11 22:54:22 <gjs278> http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2532/screenshotgq.png
3424 2011-06-11 22:54:28 Veladon has joined
3425 2011-06-11 22:54:31 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: yes but that implies someone actually uses c#
3426 2011-06-11 22:54:36 <gjs278> "paytxfee" : 0.01000000,
3427 2011-06-11 22:54:40 <gjs278> thats what my getinfo says
3428 2011-06-11 22:54:42 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: It's weird to tell people not to spend their money until they've waited a few hours.
3429 2011-06-11 22:54:42 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: :iceburn:
3430 2011-06-11 22:54:56 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Plenty of people do. That much is proven.
3431 2011-06-11 22:54:57 <denisx> gjs278: strange
3432 2011-06-11 22:55:00 <jrmithdobbs> also, it's just a library, not a full blown implementation.
3433 2011-06-11 22:55:01 <gjs278> yeah definitely
3434 2011-06-11 22:55:08 <ArdaXi> One of the most popular programming 'forums' runs on C#.
3435 2011-06-11 22:55:10 <gjs278> oh well, my contribution to the miners...
3436 2011-06-11 22:55:11 <_W_> mm, problem is I couldn't bear coding in c++ :p
3437 2011-06-11 22:55:19 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3438 2011-06-11 22:55:24 <ArdaXi> denisx: It's not strange.
3439 2011-06-11 22:55:30 <ArdaXi> 0053 <gjs278> like 5 minutes ago
3440 2011-06-11 22:55:47 <ArdaXi> The coins were sent so recently that the priority was too low to send it.
3441 2011-06-11 22:55:48 underscor has joined
3442 2011-06-11 22:55:58 <sipa> if you set paytxfee to 0.01, you're voluntarily paying 0.01 BTC per started 1000 bytes of tx
3443 2011-06-11 22:56:03 <ArdaXi> The transaction required 0.02 BTC in order to raise it high enough for the default client to include it in a block.
3444 2011-06-11 22:56:07 ajf is now known as offline!~ajf@78.129.159.151|ajf
3445 2011-06-11 22:56:14 <eamon> I want to make a free pool for a very small, unofficial blockchain. Can anybody who has knowledge help me? I have a server with a 1GB/s connection running Debian, but no experience. Please PM if you could help me, or chat here, I would be ever so grateful. Please respond :-)
3446 2011-06-11 22:56:28 <gjs278> sipa what should I set it to then
3447 2011-06-11 22:56:32 <sipa> gjs278: 0
3448 2011-06-11 22:56:35 <denisx> ArdaXi:if the fee automatically rises it is strange for me! ;)
3449 2011-06-11 22:56:39 <gjs278> so will I ever pay a fee
3450 2011-06-11 22:56:40 <sipa> if you don't mind waiting
3451 2011-06-11 22:56:41 <sipa> any windows user want to test the connect-timeout patch?
3452 2011-06-11 22:56:43 <gjs278> oh ok
3453 2011-06-11 22:56:45 <ArdaXi> denisx: I've just explained how it happened.
3454 2011-06-11 22:56:52 <gjs278> yeah I dont care people can have my fees
3455 2011-06-11 22:57:05 <Joric> does anyone think password protection for a wallet is important?
3456 2011-06-11 22:57:05 <sipa> gjs278: you'll still pay a fee for spammy transactions though
3457 2011-06-11 22:57:05 <D0han> eamon: you can use testnet
3458 2011-06-11 22:57:08 <lfm> eamon: would you PAY for help?
3459 2011-06-11 22:57:12 eps1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3460 2011-06-11 22:57:16 <gjs278> that's fine I don't spam
3461 2011-06-11 22:57:19 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: you have destroyed my patch-merging git branch with your evil forced updates
3462 2011-06-11 22:57:26 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i hate you ;P
3463 2011-06-11 22:57:40 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: which branch of mine did you fork?
3464 2011-06-11 22:57:48 <sipa> Joric: a lot of people
3465 2011-06-11 22:57:50 <ArdaXi> sipa: I still don't get why recently sent coins are considered "spammy". I realise how they can be used in a DDoS, but I would suggest having that go a few layers deep.
3466 2011-06-11 22:57:52 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
3467 2011-06-11 22:57:57 <eamon> lfm: not really, what I'm setting up is charitable, so it wouldn't really fit
3468 2011-06-11 22:58:10 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i forked off master but merge your showwallet and the connecttimeout (connecttimeout is the one that hosed me with your 2-3 different forced updates, heh)
3469 2011-06-11 22:58:19 <eamon> lfm: it depends on how much we're talking I suppose
3470 2011-06-11 22:58:39 <sipa> ArdaXi: small recent coins allow you create a massive amount of transactions by just sending the same coin to and fro
3471 2011-06-11 22:58:42 denisx has joined
3472 2011-06-11 22:58:44 ahihi2 has joined
3473 2011-06-11 22:58:48 trentzb has left ()
3474 2011-06-11 22:58:49 <ArdaXi> sipa: Exactly. "to and fro".
3475 2011-06-11 22:58:53 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: just giving you shit, i already manually resolved
3476 2011-06-11 22:58:57 <sipa> yah sorry, in my dev branches i regularly force update things
3477 2011-06-11 22:59:03 <lfm> eamon ok just this one piece of free advice then. You need at least two nodes to make a private block chain with -connect=
3478 2011-06-11 22:59:04 <ArdaXi> Right now, we're punishing users for a "to" even if it has no matching "fro".
3479 2011-06-11 22:59:05 davex_r has joined
3480 2011-06-11 22:59:13 <ArdaXi> Hm, didn't people say that encryption was already included in the repo?
3481 2011-06-11 22:59:16 <Lachesis> sorry, "force update"?
3482 2011-06-11 22:59:22 <ArdaXi> It shouldn't be hard to punish only "fro"s.
3483 2011-06-11 22:59:25 <sipa> Lachesis: overwrite git history, basically
3484 2011-06-11 22:59:29 <Lachesis> sipa, ah ok
3485 2011-06-11 22:59:34 <sipa> ?
3486 2011-06-11 22:59:42 <Lachesis> making merge fail massively, i suppose
3487 2011-06-11 22:59:52 <ArdaXi> If you send a coin within 5 minutes of it minting once, you can allow it.
3488 2011-06-11 22:59:56 <jrmithdobbs> i'm gonna have to completely re-create that tree once connecttimeout gets pulled though cause shit's all hosed ;P
3489 2011-06-11 23:00:05 <ArdaXi> Well, basically within 1 or 2 blocks.
3490 2011-06-11 23:00:09 <sipa> any windows user here?
3491 2011-06-11 23:00:09 <sipa> transactions don't have a time
3492 2011-06-11 23:00:16 jav_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3493 2011-06-11 23:00:16 <sipa> yeah, blocks
3494 2011-06-11 23:00:17 <ArdaXi> sipa: Yeah, corrected myself.
3495 2011-06-11 23:00:21 <ArdaXi> sipa: I am.
3496 2011-06-11 23:00:25 <eamon> lfm: the chain has already been started. namecoin. I want to make a free namecoin pool. Currently there is a monopoly on namecoin pools and it's fee paying, I would like to change that
3497 2011-06-11 23:00:35 <Lachesis> it seems like an awful lot of time is spent keeping patches current against the latest head of the repo
3498 2011-06-11 23:00:35 <ArdaXi> Then, if it's sent within only a few blocks again, ask for a fee.
3499 2011-06-11 23:00:54 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: more fun is if you fetch after the forced-update but before reverting revert fails too, heh
3500 2011-06-11 23:01:04 <lfm> eamon I dont like namecoin
3501 2011-06-11 23:01:11 <sipa> ArdaXi: want to test connecttimeout?
3502 2011-06-11 23:01:18 <ArdaXi> I don't think a lot of people do.
3503 2011-06-11 23:01:33 <Lachesis> jrmithdobbs, lol
3504 2011-06-11 23:01:33 <eamon> I like the p2p DNS aspect
3505 2011-06-11 23:01:37 <ArdaXi> sipa: Err, what is it? :)
3506 2011-06-11 23:01:44 <Lachesis> sipa, finally!
3507 2011-06-11 23:01:44 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3508 2011-06-11 23:01:47 <ArdaXi> I don't mind testing.
3509 2011-06-11 23:01:47 <ArdaXi> eamon: It's unsustainable.
3510 2011-06-11 23:01:50 <Lachesis> why did it take this long for that to get patched?
3511 2011-06-11 23:01:53 <lfm> ArdaXi: you are free to make up such policies for yourself, it is open source
3512 2011-06-11 23:01:58 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: so basically you have to manually merge which then if said force-updated change gets pulled back to another branch your merging you get to manually merge again!
3513 2011-06-11 23:02:01 Weed4BTC is now known as LameArse
3514 2011-06-11 23:02:01 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: good times
3515 2011-06-11 23:02:03 <ArdaXi> lfm: No point.
3516 2011-06-11 23:02:11 <ArdaXi> It has to happen from within the community.
3517 2011-06-11 23:02:12 <sipa> ArdaXi: a patch that should help you get connected much much faster
3518 2011-06-11 23:02:18 <lfm> well ya!
3519 2011-06-11 23:02:19 <ArdaXi> Specifically, the pools.
3520 2011-06-11 23:02:24 <ArdaXi> sipa: Sounds good. Do you have a binary?
3521 2011-06-11 23:02:28 <sipa> yes, sec
3522 2011-06-11 23:02:48 <Lachesis> sipa, cross-compiling or using a windows box?
3523 2011-06-11 23:03:07 <Lachesis> is there an easy way to combine commits in git?
3524 2011-06-11 23:03:07 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3525 2011-06-11 23:03:21 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: yes so long as nothing gets force-updated
3526 2011-06-11 23:03:23 <Lachesis> besides making a diff, reverting to before they happened, applying the diff, and committing?
3527 2011-06-11 23:03:27 <Lachesis> what's the cmd?
3528 2011-06-11 23:03:34 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: git merge
3529 2011-06-11 23:03:41 <Lachesis> oh you misunderstand
3530 2011-06-11 23:03:41 underscor has joined
3531 2011-06-11 23:03:49 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: no I understand completely
3532 2011-06-11 23:03:50 <Lachesis> i mean take 3 different commits and combine them in the history to be one
3533 2011-06-11 23:03:50 <ArdaXi> So, no, I'm not free to make up such policies for myself. I don't have the Thash/s forit.
3534 2011-06-11 23:03:52 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: there's no way to do what you propose within the restrictions of the current protocol
3535 2011-06-11 23:03:58 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Why?
3536 2011-06-11 23:04:01 <jrmithdobbs> oh
3537 2011-06-11 23:04:08 <ArdaXi> You can follow a coin back to the block that created it.
3538 2011-06-11 23:04:11 <Lachesis> like for a pull request or smt
3539 2011-06-11 23:04:15 Breign has quit ()
3540 2011-06-11 23:04:16 fairy44 has joined
3541 2011-06-11 23:04:20 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: its not the protocol, it is the policies
3542 2011-06-11 23:04:27 <ArdaXi> Which you do, in fact, while verifying a block.
3543 2011-06-11 23:04:30 <ArdaXi> Must admit I've never had a problem connecting, but I use -dnsseed
3544 2011-06-11 23:04:31 <ArdaXi> So miners do that too.
3545 2011-06-11 23:04:36 Heston has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3546 2011-06-11 23:04:40 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: what I do for that is create a new branch once all that's ready and stash the changes then commit on the fresh branch
3547 2011-06-11 23:04:43 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: great so now instead of dossing via to and fro txns you dos by triggering the to and fro detection logic
3548 2011-06-11 23:04:45 <Lachesis> yeah
3549 2011-06-11 23:04:46 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: GREAT plan
3550 2011-06-11 23:04:53 <Lachesis> ArdaXi, it's particularly helpful if you use a laptop and sleep a lot
3551 2011-06-11 23:04:55 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: You can already trigger plenty of logic.
3552 2011-06-11 23:04:58 <Lachesis> b/c when you sleep, you lose all connections
3553 2011-06-11 23:05:00 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: don't think there's an easier way
3554 2011-06-11 23:05:00 <ArdaXi> Just send false transactions.
3555 2011-06-11 23:05:06 <ArdaXi> Send transactions signed with a wrong key.
3556 2011-06-11 23:05:12 <jrmithdobbs> yes so adding another one is a great idea
3557 2011-06-11 23:05:17 LameArse has joined
3558 2011-06-11 23:05:18 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: It wouldn't matter much.
3559 2011-06-11 23:05:24 <Lachesis> and with the current mainline code, if the first node your machine tries to connect to (while waking up or whatever) fails, it takes forEVER to timeout
3560 2011-06-11 23:05:35 <Lachesis> so it might take 10 minutes to get reconnected after wake
3561 2011-06-11 23:05:42 <ArdaXi> You can't protect the system from DoS attacks.
3562 2011-06-11 23:05:44 <ArdaXi> Lachesis: The first 8, I thought.
3563 2011-06-11 23:05:48 <jrmithdobbs> 10 minutes? more like 10 hours
3564 2011-06-11 23:05:54 <ArdaXi> You can try to migitate the damage, but that shouldn't be your main goal.
3565 2011-06-11 23:05:58 <lfm> Im missing something here, gotta page back I guess
3566 2011-06-11 23:06:01 <Lachesis> jrmithdobbs, really? lol alright
3567 2011-06-11 23:06:07 <Lachesis> i'm impatient, so i restart bitcoind
3568 2011-06-11 23:06:10 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: no you're really not
3569 2011-06-11 23:06:11 Breign has joined
3570 2011-06-11 23:06:30 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: ya between the specific thing the connecttimeout patch fixes and the fact that there's 20 million nodes that don't accept connections advertising they do it gets bad real fast
3571 2011-06-11 23:06:38 <sipa> ArdaXi: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/test/
3572 2011-06-11 23:06:48 <Lachesis> sipa, cross-compiling or using a windows box?
3573 2011-06-11 23:06:52 diki has quit ()
3574 2011-06-11 23:06:57 <sipa> Lachesis: cross-compile in a virtual machine
3575 2011-06-11 23:06:59 Gaming4JC has joined
3576 2011-06-11 23:07:04 <Lachesis> sipa neat
3577 2011-06-11 23:07:10 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Seriously, I don't mind you disagreeing with me, in fact, I welcome it, but you don't have to be an asshole about it.
3578 2011-06-11 23:07:13 pnicholson has joined
3579 2011-06-11 23:07:24 <Gaming4JC> Would anyone here know what I would need PHP-wise to transfer items to and from a bitcoin wallet?
3580 2011-06-11 23:07:28 <ArdaXi> sipa: Anything in particular I should test?
3581 2011-06-11 23:07:33 <jrmithdobbs> Lachesis: it's especially bad for brand new clients that don't have a semi-updated addr.dat
3582 2011-06-11 23:07:36 <Gaming4JC> similar to that of ClearCoin, but it's going to be used for something else.
3583 2011-06-11 23:07:45 <Joric> i.e. win32 + compiling for win32 in a linux in a vm ? )
3584 2011-06-11 23:07:45 <Gaming4JC> need some tips on dev related information for that
3585 2011-06-11 23:07:55 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: json-rpc, that's it
3586 2011-06-11 23:07:58 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: welcome to internet relay chat. we do hope you enjoy your stay.
3587 2011-06-11 23:08:01 <sipa> ArdaXi: yes, if you could delete your addr.dat file, and don't use dnsseed
3588 2011-06-11 23:08:05 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: and a running bitcoind of course
3589 2011-06-11 23:08:08 <sipa> ArdaXi: and see how long it takes to connect
3590 2011-06-11 23:08:08 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Err?
3591 2011-06-11 23:08:15 <ArdaXi> I'm not talking to IRC, I'm talking to you.
3592 2011-06-11 23:08:17 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: nothing else? hmm...
3593 2011-06-11 23:08:19 <sipa> ArdaXi: and any debug.log messages containing 'connection'
3594 2011-06-11 23:08:21 <ArdaXi> sipa: dnsseed is disabled by default, right?
3595 2011-06-11 23:08:21 <Gaming4JC> json-rpc is a bit insecure
3596 2011-06-11 23:08:25 <ArdaXi> You don't have to be an asshole just because you're on the internet.
3597 2011-06-11 23:08:28 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: nope, nothing else
3598 2011-06-11 23:08:32 Guest89514 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3599 2011-06-11 23:08:33 <ArdaXi> Fun fact, even on the internet, people can be nice to each other.
3600 2011-06-11 23:08:36 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: alright thanks
3601 2011-06-11 23:08:42 <denisx> does bitcoind only connect to the irc channel to look for other nodes?
3602 2011-06-11 23:08:42 <ArdaXi> sipa: It actually uses the debug.log?
3603 2011-06-11 23:08:42 <sipa> ArdaXi: yes, so just start bitcoin.exe without command-line flags
3604 2011-06-11 23:08:44 <jrmithdobbs> that's a myth
3605 2011-06-11 23:08:52 davex_r has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3606 2011-06-11 23:08:56 <sipa> ArdaXi: 'uses' ? it just outputs things there
3607 2011-06-11 23:09:02 Guest89514 has joined
3608 2011-06-11 23:09:02 <ArdaXi> ...
3609 2011-06-11 23:09:07 <ArdaXi> sipa: Then deleting those lines wouldn't have any effect, would it?
3610 2011-06-11 23:09:08 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: json-rpc is not inherently insecure. passing it plaintext over an open network is, but the transport mechanism doesn't make the whole thing "insecure"
3611 2011-06-11 23:09:17 <ericmock> it all comes around...
3612 2011-06-11 23:09:37 <sipa> ArdaXi: by the way, there is a -timeout=N parameter - if you set it to something under 10, connecting should become extremely slow
3613 2011-06-11 23:09:44 <sipa> or impossible
3614 2011-06-11 23:09:47 <ArdaXi> I'll test just running it now.
3615 2011-06-11 23:09:53 * ArdaXi launches.
3616 2011-06-11 23:09:54 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3617 2011-06-11 23:10:01 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: true, I just wish it had better than base64 encoded password. Something like 4,096bit RSA (GPG) keys
3618 2011-06-11 23:10:01 <Gaming4JC> :)
3619 2011-06-11 23:10:07 <denisx> a friend of mine is the coder of opentracker, this thing handles more than 20k connections/sec when the machine/network can handle it
3620 2011-06-11 23:10:13 <sipa> oh, it's a pre-release-candidate, not much changed, but i don't take responsibility if it deletes all your coins :)
3621 2011-06-11 23:10:17 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3622 2011-06-11 23:10:18 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: or you could just use https like a sane person
3623 2011-06-11 23:10:30 <lfm> ArdaXi: if you think people should be nice then dont call them assholes
3624 2011-06-11 23:10:32 Mononofu has left ()
3625 2011-06-11 23:10:34 <ArdaXi> sipa: I don't really mind losing the very small amount currently in my wallet.
3626 2011-06-11 23:10:45 <ArdaXi> On 0 connections right now.
3627 2011-06-11 23:10:47 <ArdaXi> 2.
3628 2011-06-11 23:10:49 <ArdaXi> lfm: I don't call people assholes unless they've proven they aren't interested in being nice.
3629 2011-06-11 23:10:59 <ArdaXi> 3
3630 2011-06-11 23:11:04 <jrmithdobbs> that means it's working
3631 2011-06-11 23:11:13 <ArdaXi> 6 now
3632 2011-06-11 23:11:19 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: SSLStrip and Man-in-the-middle is still a bit risky, esp. on Wifi
3633 2011-06-11 23:11:22 underscor has joined
3634 2011-06-11 23:11:27 <lfm> that just perpetuates the problem and makes it worse by stooping to their level
3635 2011-06-11 23:11:38 <ArdaXi> Speaking of connections, is it even possible to bootstrap a decentralized network?
3636 2011-06-11 23:11:41 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: having the physical layer between your webserver and your bitcoind be wifi is stupid
3637 2011-06-11 23:11:44 <ArdaXi> lfm: If you say so. I don't think so.
3638 2011-06-11 23:11:56 <ArdaXi> Right now, it's centralized using a hardcoded IRC network.
3639 2011-06-11 23:12:03 <sipa> or dnsseed
3640 2011-06-11 23:12:08 <sipa> or manually adding code
3641 2011-06-11 23:12:09 <ArdaXi> Right, but still centralized.
3642 2011-06-11 23:12:10 <sipa> or fallback nodes
3643 2011-06-11 23:12:13 <ericmock> he's correct... we can all see what you see, no sense in pointing it out
3644 2011-06-11 23:12:14 <lfm> ya, you dont seem to listen to much in the way of advice do ya
3645 2011-06-11 23:12:22 <sipa> but there must be some initial way to find other nodes, yes
3646 2011-06-11 23:12:22 <ArdaXi> So, would it even be possible?
3647 2011-06-11 23:12:26 LameArse is now known as ArseLame
3648 2011-06-11 23:12:27 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: For running miners inparticularly...
3649 2011-06-11 23:12:31 <ArdaXi> lfm: Depends on whether I agree with it or not.
3650 2011-06-11 23:12:36 BlueMatt_ has joined
3651 2011-06-11 23:12:37 <ArdaXi> Because even Freenet comes pre-installed with a couple nodes, for example.
3652 2011-06-11 23:12:47 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3653 2011-06-11 23:12:55 <lfm> hehe, that could be the architypical definition of a troll
3654 2011-06-11 23:12:58 ArseLame is now known as LameArse
3655 2011-06-11 23:13:02 <ArdaXi> Oh, put that on the list for Bitcoin features. Darknet functionality.
3656 2011-06-11 23:13:06 <ArdaXi> lfm: You take advice you don't agree with?
3657 2011-06-11 23:13:10 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3658 2011-06-11 23:13:10 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3659 2011-06-11 23:13:13 <lfm> sometimes
3660 2011-06-11 23:13:14 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: miners shouldn't be connecting directly to bitcoind anyways, and still, having their physical layer be wifi is also stupid
3661 2011-06-11 23:13:17 <sipa> you can run it over tor
3662 2011-06-11 23:13:18 <ArdaXi> Only relay transactions/receive blocks from nodes you add manually.
3663 2011-06-11 23:13:19 <ArdaXi> lfm: What does it depend on?
3664 2011-06-11 23:13:26 <ArdaXi> sipa: Tor is not a darknet.
3665 2011-06-11 23:13:30 <ArdaXi> Not a by a long shot.
3666 2011-06-11 23:13:37 <lfm> I am willing to be convinced by a decent argument, It seems you arnt
3667 2011-06-11 23:13:46 <ArdaXi> A darknet means you only connect to nodes you trust directly.
3668 2011-06-11 23:13:58 <ArdaXi> lfm: Being convinced mean you agree with it in the end.
3669 2011-06-11 23:14:02 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: Well, I don't use it but I know people who do. Just say'n. :P
3670 2011-06-11 23:14:05 <directhex> people you disagree with are the only ones with advice worth listening to. echo chambers are useless
3671 2011-06-11 23:14:09 <sipa> oh, ok
3672 2011-06-11 23:14:11 <ArdaXi> So long as every node is connected with every other node through any amount of nodes, the network would work.
3673 2011-06-11 23:14:14 <jrmithdobbs> Gaming4JC: stop doing stupid things
3674 2011-06-11 23:14:19 <eamon> what is the difference between bitcoins and namecoins?
3675 2011-06-11 23:14:28 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: lol, right. ;)
3676 2011-06-11 23:14:31 <ArdaXi> eamon: Different block chain.
3677 2011-06-11 23:14:33 <ArdaXi> directhex: I only take advice once I agree with it. I'm willing to listen to people I disagree with.
3678 2011-06-11 23:14:34 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3679 2011-06-11 23:14:43 <Gaming4JC> jrmithdobbs: anyways thanks, I got some scripts to go on now. :)
3680 2011-06-11 23:14:57 <jrmithdobbs> eamon: one is a currency that is currently being treated as a commodity in it's exchange markets
3681 2011-06-11 23:15:00 <sipa> what was the thing you're disagreeing about, actually?
3682 2011-06-11 23:15:05 <jrmithdobbs> eamon: the other is a stupid misguided idea doomed to failure
3683 2011-06-11 23:15:06 <eamon> that's silly why reinvent the wheel...
3684 2011-06-11 23:15:07 <sipa> i must have missed it
3685 2011-06-11 23:15:11 <jgarzik> emacs vs. vi
3686 2011-06-11 23:15:15 <lfm> ArdaXi: and I havnt seen any decent arguments from you really, just spouting your own ideas as if they were inspired by your diety
3687 2011-06-11 23:15:16 <sipa> oh
3688 2011-06-11 23:15:19 <sipa> carry on, then
3689 2011-06-11 23:15:30 <ArdaXi> eamon: Because a car's wheel does not fit on a bicycle.
3690 2011-06-11 23:15:36 <sipa> eamon: because the bitcoin chain isn't intended or tailored for anything but financial transactions
3691 2011-06-11 23:15:38 <ArdaXi> lfm: I was only spouting ideas. I've never suggested otherwise.
3692 2011-06-11 23:15:46 <eamon> so they are different??
3693 2011-06-11 23:15:48 BlueMatt has joined
3694 2011-06-11 23:15:53 <sipa> yes
3695 2011-06-11 23:15:55 <ArdaXi> eamon: Yes, it's a different block chain.
3696 2011-06-11 23:16:03 <lfm> hehe but we're assholes if we think they are poor ideas?
3697 2011-06-11 23:16:10 backwardation25 has joined
3698 2011-06-11 23:16:11 <sipa> namecoin contains special operations that represent domain name updates and registrations
3699 2011-06-11 23:16:11 <ArdaXi> lfm: Didn't say that.
3700 2011-06-11 23:16:18 <lfm> seems like you did
3701 2011-06-11 23:16:20 <ArdaXi> Bitcoins are worth dollars. Namecoins are worth domain names.
3702 2011-06-11 23:16:31 <ArdaXi> I called jrmithdobbs an asshole because he constantly reacted sarcastically and passive-agressively towards what I was saying.
3703 2011-06-11 23:16:36 <ArdaXi> Dollars are worth domain names in the same way bitcoins are worth namecoins.
3704 2011-06-11 23:16:39 <ArdaXi> Rather than just telling me I was wrong and how.
3705 2011-06-11 23:16:49 <eamon> why is the bitcoin chain like a car wheel and the namecoin chain like a bicycle wheel?
3706 2011-06-11 23:16:54 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3707 2011-06-11 23:16:56 <ArdaXi> eamon: It was just an example.
3708 2011-06-11 23:17:04 <ArdaXi> It wasn't meant specific.
3709 2011-06-11 23:17:12 <Lachesis> nanotube, around?
3710 2011-06-11 23:17:16 <ArdaXi> I was merely demonstrating that different vehicles require different wheels. ;-)
3711 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r76d660e / (src/init.cpp src/main.h src/net.cpp src/net.h src/util.h):
3712 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Faster timeout when connecting
3713 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Use non-blocking connects, and a select() call to wait a predefined
3714 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: time (5s by default, but configurable with -timeout) for either
3715 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: success or failure. This allows much more connections to be tried
3716 2011-06-11 23:17:17 <CIA-31> bitcoin: per time unit.
3717 2011-06-11 23:17:18 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Based on a patch by phantomcircuit. - http://bit.ly/kVBNWq
3718 2011-06-11 23:17:19 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rce14894 / (src/init.cpp src/main.h src/net.cpp src/net.h src/util.h):
3719 2011-06-11 23:17:19 <lfm> you augth to know its very hard to distinguish sarcasm from sincere disagreement in a text only medium such as this
3720 2011-06-11 23:17:20 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Merge pull request #300 from sipa/connecttimeout
3721 2011-06-11 23:17:20 <CIA-31> bitcoin: non-blocking connect (by phantomcircuit) - http://bit.ly/ijBjBs
3722 2011-06-11 23:17:26 <sipa> ArdaXi: anyway, any special 'connect() failed' messages in debug.log ?
3723 2011-06-11 23:17:30 BlueMatt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3724 2011-06-11 23:17:33 <ArdaXi> sipa: Having a look now.
3725 2011-06-11 23:17:33 <jgarzik> OK
3726 2011-06-11 23:17:35 <ArdaXi> lfm: It was pretty obvious.
3727 2011-06-11 23:17:37 <jgarzik> time for 0.3.23-rc1
3728 2011-06-11 23:17:39 <jgarzik> whee
3729 2011-06-11 23:17:42 <ArdaXi> 0104 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: great so now instead of dossing via to and fro txns you dos by triggering the to and fro detection logic
3730 2011-06-11 23:17:45 <ArdaXi> 0104 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: GREAT plan
3731 2011-06-11 23:17:48 <ArdaXi> If that wasn't obvious I don't know what is.
3732 2011-06-11 23:17:59 <eamon> why is a namecoin better for buying a name than a dollar or a bitcoin?
3733 2011-06-11 23:18:03 jav_ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
3734 2011-06-11 23:18:18 <sipa> eamon: it's not - namecoin is not for buying domains
3735 2011-06-11 23:18:23 <sipa> namecoin IS domains
3736 2011-06-11 23:18:25 <lfm> bah, thats nothing to call names over
3737 2011-06-11 23:18:36 <ArdaXi> lfm: It was an example.
3738 2011-06-11 23:18:37 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: i started mocking you after you repeated the same idea 3 or 4 times with no workable proposed solution, grow thicker skin
3739 2011-06-11 23:18:39 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3740 2011-06-11 23:18:45 nodey has joined
3741 2011-06-11 23:18:52 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: You've constantly been mocking me over the past few days.
3742 2011-06-11 23:18:56 <ArdaXi> eamon: Namecoins aren't a currency.
3743 2011-06-11 23:18:58 <sipa> (at least, an attempt)
3744 2011-06-11 23:19:02 <ArdaXi> It got tiring.
3745 2011-06-11 23:19:04 <eamon> oh
3746 2011-06-11 23:19:08 <wumpus> yeah you do need a thick skin in this community
3747 2011-06-11 23:19:17 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: welcome to the internet
3748 2011-06-11 23:19:25 <ArdaXi> wumpus: I can either care about what he has to say or I don't.
3749 2011-06-11 23:19:27 retinal has joined
3750 2011-06-11 23:19:29 <nodey> and to hold bitcoin!!! 33 - 14!!!! 4 days
3751 2011-06-11 23:19:35 <lfm> feh, your holding a grudge from 3 days ago?! get over it
3752 2011-06-11 23:19:42 <ArdaXi> lfm: "constantly"
3753 2011-06-11 23:19:44 <sipa> jgarzik: regarding increasing free tx zone - that may have as consequence that non-low-priority transactions between 27K and 64K pass the free-tx test when creating, but aren't realyed by 0.3.21-22 nodes
3754 2011-06-11 23:19:49 <eamon> its like a p2p dns?
3755 2011-06-11 23:19:57 <sipa> yes
3756 2011-06-11 23:19:58 <ArdaXi> sipa: All I can find in my debug.log is some invalid transactions.
3757 2011-06-11 23:19:58 elly has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3758 2011-06-11 23:19:59 <jrmithdobbs> that doesnt work
3759 2011-06-11 23:20:13 <sipa> between 26K and 63K, actually
3760 2011-06-11 23:20:24 <lfm> sipa ya, I think that would be ok
3761 2011-06-11 23:20:30 <wumpus> I've been in friendlier open source communities as well, but heh I think it's because this attracts a lot of trolls so the devs get (understandably) cranky sometimes :p
3762 2011-06-11 23:20:31 <jgarzik> sipa: yes
3763 2011-06-11 23:21:01 Guest89514 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3764 2011-06-11 23:21:02 <lfm> wumpus ya a lot of consipry theorists and such wind up here
3765 2011-06-11 23:21:12 <directhex> call this abusive? pft.
3766 2011-06-11 23:21:18 <ArdaXi> directhex: Did I?
3767 2011-06-11 23:21:19 <ArdaXi> When?
3768 2011-06-11 23:21:26 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: and there's been so much whining about the "forced" txn fees lately that it gets old very quickly
3769 2011-06-11 23:21:41 <ArdaXi> I wasn't the one whining about the forced TX fees.
3770 2011-06-11 23:21:51 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: but w/e
3771 2011-06-11 23:21:53 <ArdaXi> I was only explaining a corner case that might confuse users.
3772 2011-06-11 23:21:57 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3773 2011-06-11 23:22:02 <sipa> jgarzik: not sure if that's an issue, such large yet non-low-priority transactions are rare, and i expect 0.3.23 to be adopted rather quickly
3774 2011-06-11 23:22:06 <ArdaXi> Where the network might be casting too wide a net.
3775 2011-06-11 23:22:36 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3776 2011-06-11 23:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya I agree, the connect timeout patch alone will have people upgrading pretty quick
3777 2011-06-11 23:23:29 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: indeed, and decreased min tx fees too
3778 2011-06-11 23:23:37 <jrmithdobbs> i've not seen but a handful of non-low-priority txns that break 1k to begin with
3779 2011-06-11 23:23:48 <ArdaXi> sipa: Isn't that issue re-introduced every time the transaction fee rules are changed, though?
3780 2011-06-11 23:24:05 <sipa> ArdaXi: yes, we're definitely thinking about a more flexible/adaptive solution
3781 2011-06-11 23:24:11 underscor has joined
3782 2011-06-11 23:24:12 <lfm> are they gonna revert the muliti irc channels or just try to fix it?
3783 2011-06-11 23:24:41 <jgarzik> sipa: well, increasing free TX area probably needs at least a minimal forum discussion. In the interest of getting things out the door, let's go ahead with -rc1 (see email, just sent)
3784 2011-06-11 23:24:46 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: i think the fix is in preventing people who aren't connectable from hanging around in the irc seed channels
3785 2011-06-11 23:24:54 <sipa> jgarzik: go ahead
3786 2011-06-11 23:25:30 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: ok then go back to just one channel if that is fixed?
3787 2011-06-11 23:25:36 p0s- has joined
3788 2011-06-11 23:25:38 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: eg this: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12286.0
3789 2011-06-11 23:25:58 fairy44 has quit (Quit: leaving)
3790 2011-06-11 23:26:19 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: well, at that point there's no reason to revert since nodes in the channel will be connectable
3791 2011-06-11 23:26:24 NOTAL has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
3792 2011-06-11 23:26:33 p0s has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3793 2011-06-11 23:26:36 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: and it's a limitation of lfnet's ircd
3794 2011-06-11 23:27:03 stuhood has joined
3795 2011-06-11 23:27:13 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: huh wont there still be underpopulated channels that will be islanded?
3796 2011-06-11 23:27:33 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: underpopulation wont cause islands in and of itself
3797 2011-06-11 23:27:50 <sipa> maybe connecting to 2 or 3 channels would have been better
3798 2011-06-11 23:27:55 <sipa> to prevent segmentation
3799 2011-06-11 23:28:04 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: so long as each channel has at least one good node it sorts itself out over time
3800 2011-06-11 23:28:10 nodey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3801 2011-06-11 23:28:18 zapnap has joined
3802 2011-06-11 23:28:24 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: irc seeding needs to die anyways
3803 2011-06-11 23:28:35 <sipa> yes, it does
3804 2011-06-11 23:28:44 <sipa> jgarzik: you need binaries for the rc's?
3805 2011-06-11 23:28:55 <jgarzik> sipa: yes
3806 2011-06-11 23:29:01 <jgarzik> sipa: can you do that?
3807 2011-06-11 23:29:08 <sipa> yes
3808 2011-06-11 23:30:05 dvide has quit ()
3809 2011-06-11 23:31:34 is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-18-25.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
3810 2011-06-11 23:31:43 <jrmithdobbs> sweet i didn't have to manually re-merge that after it was pulled
3811 2011-06-11 23:33:08 simkiss has joined
3812 2011-06-11 23:33:46 <stuhood> worth investigating? https://twitter.com/#!/LulzSec/status/79689574313492480
3813 2011-06-11 23:33:46 jjjj has joined
3814 2011-06-11 23:34:56 <jrmithdobbs> stuhood: i'd guess they compromised machines that happened to be bitcoin nodes
3815 2011-06-11 23:35:02 XX01XX has joined
3816 2011-06-11 23:35:02 LameArse has joined
3817 2011-06-11 23:35:05 earthmeLon has joined
3818 2011-06-11 23:35:05 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
3819 2011-06-11 23:35:05 earthmeLon has joined
3820 2011-06-11 23:35:18 noagendamarket has joined
3821 2011-06-11 23:35:23 <jrmithdobbs> stuhood: if they'd found a real problem they'd be stealing satoshi blocks because: more lulz
3822 2011-06-11 23:35:26 <stuhood> imo, it's just trolling, since that block had been posted to the forums as significant, but it would be easy enough to check, right?
3823 2011-06-11 23:35:45 coinage has quit (Quit: bedtime!)
3824 2011-06-11 23:36:07 <jgarzik> stuhood: what is the problem?
3825 2011-06-11 23:36:22 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: ...or they were paid in bitcoins
3826 2011-06-11 23:36:36 <zid`> I think either: They know why the crash happened, so they're laughing, or they hacked someone's wallet, and flooded the coins to market, so find it funny
3827 2011-06-11 23:36:39 <stuhood> no idea at all. assuming all addresses in and out are valid in the blockchain, there isn't anything they could have done
3828 2011-06-11 23:36:46 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: 1700ish complete previously unclaimed blocks is suspicious but I don't think it's anything interesting
3829 2011-06-11 23:36:53 <stuhood> aside from reversing a private key
3830 2011-06-11 23:36:57 <stuhood> (hah)
3831 2011-06-11 23:37:06 <jrmithdobbs> err unclaimed coins not blocks
3832 2011-06-11 23:37:07 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: very old unclaimed generations at that
3833 2011-06-11 23:37:32 lebish_zz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3834 2011-06-11 23:38:01 <jrmithdobbs> also 20ish of them are from the same btc address
3835 2011-06-11 23:38:14 <jrmithdobbs> which means it's most likely either what jgarzik said or what I did
3836 2011-06-11 23:38:14 <ArdaXi> So they might have stolen a bunch of wallet.dats
3837 2011-06-11 23:38:15 <jrmithdobbs> so
3838 2011-06-11 23:38:17 <jrmithdobbs> nothing interesting
3839 2011-06-11 23:38:19 <ArdaXi> And used them to crash the market.
3840 2011-06-11 23:38:26 <stuhood> but when a group getting as much attention as they are claim to have done something suspicious, it might be worth making a statement
3841 2011-06-11 23:38:44 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: the coins haven't gone anywhere from that destination address so no
3842 2011-06-11 23:38:54 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: These coins haven't.
3843 2011-06-11 23:38:56 d4de has joined
3844 2011-06-11 23:38:56 d4de has quit (Changing host)
3845 2011-06-11 23:38:56 d4de has joined
3846 2011-06-11 23:39:00 <ArdaXi> Who's to say these are the only ones?
3847 2011-06-11 23:39:16 <ArdaXi> Lulzsec has hinted at them being responsible for the crash.
3848 2011-06-11 23:39:17 <ArdaXi> ""
3849 2011-06-11 23:39:17 <ArdaXi> 0136 <nobody___> You were definitly born long before that.
3850 2011-06-11 23:39:25 <ArdaXi> Paste fail.
3851 2011-06-11 23:39:31 backwardation25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3852 2011-06-11 23:39:34 ArseLame has joined
3853 2011-06-11 23:39:39 <ArdaXi> "BitCoins dropped from 32 to 11 in the last 24 hours, I wonder why? Bwahahaha."
3854 2011-06-11 23:39:42 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3855 2011-06-11 23:39:47 <ArdaXi> http://twitter.com/LulzSec/status/79678588407906304
3856 2011-06-11 23:40:13 Stellar has joined
3857 2011-06-11 23:40:15 QDef has joined
3858 2011-06-11 23:40:22 LameArse has quit (Disconnected by services)
3859 2011-06-11 23:40:30 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: more likely that whoever was pumping finally dumped
3860 2011-06-11 23:40:31 ArseLame is now known as LameArese
3861 2011-06-11 23:40:39 LameArese is now known as LameArse
3862 2011-06-11 23:40:58 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: I don't know, why would LulzSec lie about this? They've never lied about anything else they've done.
3863 2011-06-11 23:41:05 lebish has joined
3864 2011-06-11 23:41:15 p0s- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3865 2011-06-11 23:41:15 <jrmithdobbs> you don't "get" it
3866 2011-06-11 23:41:23 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3867 2011-06-11 23:41:26 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Okay.
3868 2011-06-11 23:41:29 <ArdaXi> Good to know.
3869 2011-06-11 23:41:41 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
3870 2011-06-11 23:41:52 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: a) they have lied. b) They'll take credit for things that can't be proven false purely for lulz
3871 2011-06-11 23:42:07 <wumpus> I don't think they're claiming to have hacked bitcoin
3872 2011-06-11 23:42:09 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: You have no proof either way.
3873 2011-06-11 23:42:15 <stuhood> aka "trolling"
3874 2011-06-11 23:42:24 <ArdaXi> I wasn't saying they did it. I was saying it's possible they did.
3875 2011-06-11 23:42:33 <ArdaXi> You're saying it isnt.
3876 2011-06-11 23:42:41 <ArdaXi> I'd like to see proof that it isn't.
3877 2011-06-11 23:42:41 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: me either
3878 2011-06-11 23:42:49 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Me neither.
3879 2011-06-11 23:43:00 <jrmithdobbs> i didn't say it was possible. I said it was unlikely
3880 2011-06-11 23:43:10 <jrmithdobbs> s/possible/impossible/
3881 2011-06-11 23:43:13 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: "the coins haven't gone anywhere from that destination address so no"
3882 2011-06-11 23:43:14 <jrmithdobbs> big difference
3883 2011-06-11 23:43:15 <Guchimane> very unlickly, but possible
3884 2011-06-11 23:43:44 <wumpus> also LulzSec The Lulz Boat
3885 2011-06-11 23:43:44 <wumpus> Buy BitCoins now while morons are freaking out and selling them due to a sudden drop, they're going cheap. :D #LulzTip
3886 2011-06-11 23:43:58 <Guchimane> you would think a bunch of hackers would want an online currency to be succesfull and worth a ton of money
3887 2011-06-11 23:44:11 <wumpus> I guess they're simply into the market manipulation game
3888 2011-06-11 23:44:19 <ArdaXi> Guchimane: Crashing the market doesn't stop that. It just makes it easier to enter.
3889 2011-06-11 23:44:23 <ArdaXi> ;;ticker
3890 2011-06-11 23:44:24 <gribble> Best bid: 14.7472, Best ask: 14.9421, Bid-ask spread: 0.1949, Last trade: 14.7471, 24 hour volume: 121517, 24 hour low: 13, 24 hour high: 24.0731
3891 2011-06-11 23:44:27 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: exactly
3892 2011-06-11 23:44:33 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: because it works.
3893 2011-06-11 23:44:40 <jrmithdobbs> especially on small markets like this
3894 2011-06-11 23:45:06 <Guchimane> true im sure as shite going to purchase some coins
3895 2011-06-11 23:45:09 <ArdaXi> I don't think it's difficult to believe that Lulzsec would be capable of acquiring at least a few wallet.dats from vulnerable targets with lots of coins.
3896 2011-06-11 23:45:56 <ArdaXi> Especially early investors who might have even forgotten they still had a wallet.dat on their hard disk.
3897 2011-06-11 23:46:05 <wumpus> yep
3898 2011-06-11 23:46:14 <jrmithdobbs> that is most likely, yes
3899 2011-06-11 23:46:50 <jrmithdobbs> or maybe artforz cashed out enough that now he's in it for the lulz
3900 2011-06-11 23:46:52 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
3901 2011-06-11 23:47:03 alkor has joined
3902 2011-06-11 23:47:13 <wumpus> that's another option to consider
3903 2011-06-11 23:47:17 <jrmithdobbs> and sent them a bunch of unused blocks he still had
3904 2011-06-11 23:47:22 <ArdaXi> Or maybe Artforz... is Lulzsec!
3905 2011-06-11 23:47:26 <Guchimane> any connection your pc to the www can be exploited thats whay i encrypt my wallet.dat file..
3906 2011-06-11 23:47:27 <QDef> Could anyone help me out with an OpenCL error code? I'm getting "ERROR: Failed to queue kernel, error -54" roughly every 6 hours with DiabloMiner.
3907 2011-06-11 23:47:30 <wumpus> after all, lulzsec posted a bitcoin address on the forums
3908 2011-06-11 23:47:32 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: not funny enough
3909 2011-06-11 23:47:35 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: :(
3910 2011-06-11 23:47:41 <wumpus> someone might have sent them a crapload of coins
3911 2011-06-11 23:47:55 <Guchimane> for a hack for hire job maybe?
3912 2011-06-11 23:48:10 backwardation25 has joined
3913 2011-06-11 23:48:20 <ArdaXi> Their donation address is 176LRX4WRWD5LWDMbhr94ptb2MW9varCZP
3914 2011-06-11 23:48:30 <wumpus> last time they were sent coins they also cashed them out immediately
3915 2011-06-11 23:48:37 sanity has joined
3916 2011-06-11 23:48:43 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3917 2011-06-11 23:49:11 <ArdaXi> They were sent a grand total of 434.05130745 BTC
3918 2011-06-11 23:49:23 <jgarzik> I imagine it went like this: for each node { try to hack in }
3919 2011-06-11 23:49:44 <Joric> did anyone try to generate a good looking address? )
3920 2011-06-11 23:49:45 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: pretty much
3921 2011-06-11 23:50:08 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: That would mean that every person using Bitcoin is making a target of themselves.
3922 2011-06-11 23:50:18 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: um, yes, they are
3923 2011-06-11 23:50:18 <ArdaXi> Joric: Plenty. Google bitcoin vanity addresses.
3924 2011-06-11 23:50:38 <wumpus> if you have that many coins you should really keep them in an offline wallet
3925 2011-06-11 23:50:42 <jgarzik> ArdaXi: duh
3926 2011-06-11 23:50:46 <jrmithdobbs> anyone running publically facing financials software is making themselves a target. bitcoin not excluded.
3927 2011-06-11 23:50:52 <jgarzik> ArdaXi: what do you think happens when you join a P2P network?
3928 2011-06-11 23:50:56 <ArdaXi> All the more reason we should have client-nodes.
3929 2011-06-11 23:51:10 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: that wouldn't help much.
3930 2011-06-11 23:51:11 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: Well, yes, but in a network like Bitcoin there's actual money at risk.
3931 2011-06-11 23:51:26 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: A client-node doesn't announce itself on a global network.
3932 2011-06-11 23:51:31 <wumpus> scrap that, anyone running software is making themselves a target. it's not like normal bank phishing is rare
3933 2011-06-11 23:51:33 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: lots and lots of clients already don't have forwarded ports. You can still run some nodes and see who connects to you.
3934 2011-06-11 23:51:44 <F4C3> i think at this point anyone could claim ignorance since there are no clear laws
3935 2011-06-11 23:51:44 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: it announces it self to everyone it connects to though.
3936 2011-06-11 23:51:55 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: But it only connects to a couple of super nodes.
3937 2011-06-11 23:52:13 <ArdaXi> Which are implicitly trusted anyway.
3938 2011-06-11 23:52:18 <jrmithdobbs> no
3939 2011-06-11 23:52:20 <jrmithdobbs> they are not
3940 2011-06-11 23:52:22 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: so great, running (or hacking) one of thoses gets you a fairly complete list of all clients.
3941 2011-06-11 23:52:23 <jrmithdobbs> or shouldn't be
3942 2011-06-11 23:52:25 <ericmock> the point is this needs to be make safe for people that don't know better or it's going nowhere
3943 2011-06-11 23:52:31 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Without the entire block chain, you HAVE to trust the nodes.
3944 2011-06-11 23:52:45 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: no you don't
3945 2011-06-11 23:52:56 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: it's not like someone can fake the blockchain without doing the work.
3946 2011-06-11 23:53:07 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: Yes, but they can fork it.
3947 2011-06-11 23:53:08 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: you send out your txn as normal and it either gets accepted or rejected. no trust involved
3948 2011-06-11 23:53:21 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: only if they have enough hashpower to have a plausable fork.
3949 2011-06-11 23:53:25 wood_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3950 2011-06-11 23:53:31 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: How would the node know the difficutly?
3951 2011-06-11 23:53:57 <gmaxwell> ArdaXi: because part of the blockchain is fixed in the client, so you can't fabricate before that.
3952 2011-06-11 23:53:57 <ArdaXi> *difficulty
3953 2011-06-11 23:53:58 wood_ has joined
3954 2011-06-11 23:54:12 <sipa> you only need the block headers to know the difficulty
3955 2011-06-11 23:54:14 <gmaxwell> And the fixed height already has a quite high difficulty.
3956 2011-06-11 23:54:17 <sipa> not the full blocks
3957 2011-06-11 23:54:27 <ArdaXi> That being said, how is the difficulty changed?
3958 2011-06-11 23:54:34 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
3959 2011-06-11 23:54:35 <ArdaXi> Based on the block chain?
3960 2011-06-11 23:54:57 <gmaxwell> You don't have the right to go fucking whining about security without undrstanding the system basics. I'm so tired of this.
3961 2011-06-11 23:55:03 <jrmithdobbs> so you're arguing that it's possible to do trivially without even understanding the basics of the blockchain/protocol?
3962 2011-06-11 23:55:06 <jrmithdobbs> really?
3963 2011-06-11 23:55:07 <jrmithdobbs> really?
3964 2011-06-11 23:55:11 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: I know the basics of the blockchain/protocol
3965 2011-06-11 23:55:14 <ArdaXi> the only thing I haven't found
3966 2011-06-11 23:55:22 <ArdaXi> is how, technically, the difficulty is decided
3967 2011-06-11 23:55:26 <ArdaXi> I know the formula
3968 2011-06-11 23:55:31 <sipa> that's all there is
3969 2011-06-11 23:55:33 <sipa> a formula
3970 2011-06-11 23:55:40 <sipa> it's just recalculated by each node
3971 2011-06-11 23:55:41 <ArdaXi> sipa: So it's based on the block chain?
3972 2011-06-11 23:55:43 <sipa> every 2016 blocks
3973 2011-06-11 23:55:44 <sipa> yes
3974 2011-06-11 23:56:20 <ArdaXi> So an attacker would have to generate up until the next difficulty change from the chain in the client.
3975 2011-06-11 23:57:06 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: and ensure the thin client wasn't connected to any nodes he didn't control
3976 2011-06-11 23:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> which isn't possible
3977 2011-06-11 23:57:18 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Right.
3978 2011-06-11 23:57:25 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it is if he controls the clients network completely.
3979 2011-06-11 23:57:36 alkor has left ()
3980 2011-06-11 23:57:46 <gmaxwell> But he still has to do 2016 blocks, alsoâ he has can only move it a factor of four in those 2016 blocks.
3981 2011-06-11 23:58:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: in that case there's pretty high probability the attacker can already just steal wallet.dat though
3982 2011-06-11 23:58:06 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: By the way, just FYI, I wasn't saying anything was trivial.
3983 2011-06-11 23:58:13 <jrmithdobbs> so it's not really a scenario worth considering
3984 2011-06-11 23:58:23 <ArdaXi> Or that there was any kind of security issue. I was merely asking questions.
3985 2011-06-11 23:58:37 <ArdaXi> You were the one who filled in what you thought those questions implied, but didn't.
3986 2011-06-11 23:59:10 lebish_zz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3987 2011-06-11 23:59:37 <ArdaXi> So before you start mocking me again I would suggest that you question whether you are capable of reading what I'm sending you, rather than reading things into it that aren't there.
3988 2011-06-11 23:59:40 lebish has joined
3989 2011-06-11 23:59:55 <jrmithdobbs> you're very angry about irc