1 2011-06-12 00:00:03 <jrmithdobbs> xanax time?
2 2011-06-12 00:00:08 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
3 2011-06-12 00:00:11 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Don't mistake my messages for displays of emotion.
4 2011-06-12 00:00:32 <gmaxwell> So if he needs to drop it to e.g. 1.. he has to do something like 18144 blocks.
5 2011-06-12 00:00:34 <ArdaXi> I'm merely saying that you're not very good at reading objectively. Nothing more.
6 2011-06-12 00:00:50 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Again, you are reading things into my messages (anger, to be specific) which aren't there.
7 2011-06-12 00:00:57 falafell1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
8 2011-06-12 00:01:09 <lfm> ArdaXi: ok, then say what you mean
9 2011-06-12 00:01:13 <ArdaXi> lfm: I have.
10 2011-06-12 00:01:20 <lfm> you think you have
11 2011-06-12 00:01:21 <ArdaXi> What I say is what I mean.
12 2011-06-12 00:01:30 <ArdaXi> Literally.
13 2011-06-12 00:01:39 x4nti has left ()
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15 2011-06-12 00:02:05 <lfm> if you knew exactly what everything you said meant you wouldnt have any questions
16 2011-06-12 00:02:07 <ArdaXi> When I say that it seems to me that jrmithdobbs is not good at reading objectively, I'm not saying I'm angry with him, I'm saying I question his capability of reading objectively.
17 2011-06-12 00:02:34 <ArdaXi> lfm: Don't bring semantics into this. I sure hope you know the difference between what I mean and what the terms I use mean.
18 2011-06-12 00:02:40 <lfm> ok so what do you want to know now?
19 2011-06-12 00:02:53 <ArdaXi> lfm: I didn't ask any questions which haven't been answered, so nothing at the time.
20 2011-06-12 00:02:54 <gmaxwell> this has gone boringly offtopic now.
21 2011-06-12 00:03:04 <lorph> does a miner ever change the timestamp of the block header?
22 2011-06-12 00:03:08 <ArdaXi> gmaxwell: I'm sorry, I was just trying to clear things up.
23 2011-06-12 00:03:11 <sipa> lorph: some miners do
24 2011-06-12 00:03:16 <sipa> lorph: but typically, no
25 2011-06-12 00:03:18 <lorph> sipa: why do they do that
26 2011-06-12 00:03:19 <lfm> lorph: yes
27 2011-06-12 00:03:20 <sipa> lorph: they are set by the pool
28 2011-06-12 00:03:34 <gmaxwell> lorph: to reduce the amount of work they need to go fetch.
29 2011-06-12 00:03:40 <lfm> lorph: yes but some pools dont like it
30 2011-06-12 00:04:07 <gmaxwell> even more fun, if you don't change your bitcoind and your miners do that, you'll possibly end up with duplicate work.
31 2011-06-12 00:04:07 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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33 2011-06-12 00:04:22 <lfm> lorph: they change the timestamp to be able to use a new set of nonces
34 2011-06-12 00:04:22 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
35 2011-06-12 00:04:45 <gmaxwell> because your bitcoind will normally reset extranone to zero after it has advanced the time one step.
36 2011-06-12 00:04:57 <lorph> oh ok I see
37 2011-06-12 00:05:18 <lorph> whats a reasonable range of timestamp a pool should accept
38 2011-06-12 00:05:43 davex_r has joined
39 2011-06-12 00:05:45 <lfm> lorph: 10 minutes or so
40 2011-06-12 00:05:45 <lorph> or should a pool accept any timestamp
41 2011-06-12 00:06:00 <lfm> untill the next block comes out
42 2011-06-12 00:06:01 d17v1Nmz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
43 2011-06-12 00:06:10 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't personally accept any into the past or more than a few minutes into the future.
44 2011-06-12 00:06:11 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
45 2011-06-12 00:06:24 pRjck3vC has joined
46 2011-06-12 00:06:40 <gmaxwell> You don't want to take past ones because you might already be up against the median of last 11 limit.
47 2011-06-12 00:06:45 <lorph> would the bitcoin network accept it if it has a timestamp in the past or far future?
48 2011-06-12 00:07:03 <davex__> which method is doing the really slow initial block chain download?
49 2011-06-12 00:07:04 <gmaxwell> lorph: it's clamped to the median of the last 11 blocks and 2 hours into the future.
50 2011-06-12 00:07:15 <lfm> lorph: it should be a proper timestamp
51 2011-06-12 00:08:19 Jere_Jones has joined
52 2011-06-12 00:08:26 <lfm> you cant just put 0xdeadbeef in there and expect it to work
53 2011-06-12 00:08:50 <lorph> so theoreticaly it could be a timestamp before the last block?
54 2011-06-12 00:08:59 <sipa> lorph: there are some rules
55 2011-06-12 00:09:08 <sipa> about which values are alloed
56 2011-06-12 00:09:23 <gmaxwell> I just gave the rules. geesh
57 2011-06-12 00:09:29 <lfm> it does happen occationally due to network latencies and bad clock setting but you really should use a network time sync
58 2011-06-12 00:10:59 <lfm> lorph: like ntpd
59 2011-06-12 00:11:45 <luke-jr> is there a sensible way to build Win32 binaries from Linux yet?
60 2011-06-12 00:12:05 <sipa> luke-jr: define sensible?
61 2011-06-12 00:12:06 <lfm> oxymoron
62 2011-06-12 00:12:29 <luke-jr> sipa: dunno, not requiring anything beyond a cross-compiler?
63 2011-06-12 00:12:34 <lorph> mingw?
64 2011-06-12 00:12:50 <sipa> well you definitely need windows version of all required libraries to build against
65 2011-06-12 00:13:17 <sipa> though i'm not an expert on the windows building thing - just using BlueMatt's scripts now
66 2011-06-12 00:13:22 <luke-jr> ok, that too I guess
67 2011-06-12 00:13:25 <luke-jr> lorph: what else?
68 2011-06-12 00:13:47 <lorph> cgywin
69 2011-06-12 00:13:54 <phantomcircuit> cgywin
70 2011-06-12 00:13:55 <phantomcircuit> lol
71 2011-06-12 00:13:56 <phantomcircuit> no
72 2011-06-12 00:14:03 <phantomcircuit> i686-pc-mingw32
73 2011-06-12 00:14:04 <phantomcircuit> <3
74 2011-06-12 00:14:04 <luke-jr> lorph: Cygwin works in Linux?
75 2011-06-12 00:14:43 <sipa> boost, bdb, miniupnp, openssl, wxwidgets
76 2011-06-12 00:14:46 <JFK911> phantomcircuitwins
77 2011-06-12 00:14:49 <lfm> some people would probably find it easier to just run windows in a vm or something
78 2011-06-12 00:14:50 <lorph> it works under wine i think
79 2011-06-12 00:14:52 <JFK911> mingw32 is awesome
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98 2011-06-12 00:36:23 wistiu has joined
99 2011-06-12 00:36:35 <wistiu> its a wonderful day
100 2011-06-12 00:36:57 HEx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
101 2011-06-12 00:37:17 <QDef> it sure is
102 2011-06-12 00:38:17 <Kiba`> getting slammed by the bitcoin panickers is annoying
103 2011-06-12 00:38:23 <Kiba`> but good for traffic at bitcoinweekly
104 2011-06-12 00:38:30 wolfspraul has joined
105 2011-06-12 00:38:30 <jrmithdobbs> THE SKY SHE IS FALLING
106 2011-06-12 00:38:35 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
107 2011-06-12 00:39:05 <Kiba`> it probably go up really fast as soon as Monday comes around
108 2011-06-12 00:39:48 <jjjj> Is it 'safe' to buy BTC?!!?!!
109 2011-06-12 00:41:00 Beremat has joined
110 2011-06-12 00:41:00 <QDef> buying a currency is never completely safe
111 2011-06-12 00:41:22 pnicholson has joined
112 2011-06-12 00:41:55 * Kiba` shrugs
113 2011-06-12 00:41:58 Kiba` is now known as kiba`
114 2011-06-12 00:42:14 kiba` is now known as kiba
115 2011-06-12 00:42:21 <kiba> jackass who take my nicks
116 2011-06-12 00:42:25 * kiba just ghost somebody
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131 2011-06-12 00:57:30 Gaming4JC has left ("Are you a good person? http://needgod.com")
132 2011-06-12 00:58:40 <jgarzik> sipa: BlueMatt's builds looked a tiny bit different. His build output looks like: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29653426/Bitcoin%200.3.22%20RC6.tar.gz
133 2011-06-12 00:59:01 <jgarzik> sipa: the main functional change is that -win32.zip is missing
134 2011-06-12 00:59:50 Bitcoinmaker has quit ()
135 2011-06-12 01:04:12 <jjjj> man is there any way to stop this guy from crashing the market??!!! WHF?
136 2011-06-12 01:04:50 plutonic has joined
137 2011-06-12 01:05:37 <Joric> how miners modify nonce? do they just count from the minimum to the maximum?
138 2011-06-12 01:05:38 d4de has joined
139 2011-06-12 01:05:59 normanrichards has joined
140 2011-06-12 01:09:47 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
141 2011-06-12 01:09:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130170 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 869 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 0 hours, 33 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 818938.11685806
142 2011-06-12 01:12:14 mmoya has joined
143 2011-06-12 01:18:59 <sipa> jgarzik: what was is the zip?
144 2011-06-12 01:21:09 stuhood has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
145 2011-06-12 01:21:32 <mtrlt> Joric: yes
146 2011-06-12 01:22:03 Guest28720 is now known as Cryo
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155 2011-06-12 01:29:34 blueadept has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
156 2011-06-12 01:29:43 <Joric> bitcoin app has been rejected by apple :(
157 2011-06-12 01:29:53 ArtForz has joined
158 2011-06-12 01:30:58 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
159 2011-06-12 01:31:13 <ahihi2> Joric: on what grounds?
160 2011-06-12 01:31:20 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
161 2011-06-12 01:31:22 <Joric> "it involves intermediate currency"
162 2011-06-12 01:31:24 ZOP has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
163 2011-06-12 01:31:36 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: appeal
164 2011-06-12 01:31:59 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
165 2011-06-12 01:34:01 redMBA has joined
166 2011-06-12 01:34:08 <davex__> what's the reason the downloaded block chain has to be dependent on the wallet?
167 2011-06-12 01:34:09 <Joric> oh sorry looks it's ok already http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bitcoin-app/id441200334?mt=8
168 2011-06-12 01:34:22 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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173 2011-06-12 01:40:21 <Joric> bitcoin app is "FREE FOR TWO DAYS DURING UPDATES!"
174 2011-06-12 01:40:44 <jrmithdobbs> davex__: huh
175 2011-06-12 01:40:52 Incitatus has joined
176 2011-06-12 01:41:38 <davex__> jrmithdobbs: what prevents it from being changed so can move different wallet.dat into data dir
177 2011-06-12 01:41:59 <jrmithdobbs> davex__: nothing? the blockchain storage isn't dependent on the wallet or vice versa
178 2011-06-12 01:42:16 <davex__> oh really?
179 2011-06-12 01:42:16 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
180 2011-06-12 01:42:16 <davex__> ok
181 2011-06-12 01:42:38 <davex__> think it didn't used to be that way.
182 2011-06-12 01:43:39 fadaken has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
183 2011-06-12 01:44:54 percymate has joined
184 2011-06-12 01:46:54 Nockm has joined
185 2011-06-12 01:46:55 <Nockm> ning
186 2011-06-12 01:47:31 kreal- has joined
187 2011-06-12 01:47:41 <ArtForz> gaah, I'm gone for 3 days and someone lets the trolls on the forums?
188 2011-06-12 01:48:48 jjjj has quit (Quit: Page closed)
189 2011-06-12 01:48:56 <Kireji> how does one get a transaction with lots of outputs, like this http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000021a61b180613f8561daef1981a31d160b20cc12b5f17ab7f70f
190 2011-06-12 01:49:04 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
191 2011-06-12 01:49:28 <Kireji> 2 inputs and 67 outputs http://blockexplorer.com/tx/4eed14f10065491d0fba7ed92efcbe8c55b2a88e54d8310f2c5d01fdcf985ced
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196 2011-06-12 01:51:43 <noagendamarket> hey ArtForz
197 2011-06-12 01:51:52 <noagendamarket> the trolls are really bad
198 2011-06-12 01:51:57 <ArtForz> yup
199 2011-06-12 01:52:13 <ArtForz> are the forum mods on vacation or something?
200 2011-06-12 01:52:21 <noagendamarket> anyone would think they unleashed the troll army :)
201 2011-06-12 01:53:13 <noagendamarket> It feels like world of warcraft
202 2011-06-12 01:53:49 mmoya has joined
203 2011-06-12 01:53:52 <Kireji> is there a place I can read up on inputs and outputs of transactions? I'm trying ot understand how the system can make a tx with 2 inputs nad 67 outputs
204 2011-06-12 01:54:16 <Kireji> did someone put in 67 pay-to addresses in a client?
205 2011-06-12 01:54:55 <jgarzik> ArtForz: sigh :(
206 2011-06-12 01:55:08 Zarutian has joined
207 2011-06-12 01:55:08 <jgarzik> ArtForz: current email discussion between devs + prominent bitcoiners, about that.
208 2011-06-12 01:55:26 <jgarzik> ArtForz: we have concluded the forums are totally useless. Gavin just created bitcoin-development mailing list.
209 2011-06-12 01:55:39 <jgarzik> ArtForz: current forum mods are "anti censorship"
210 2011-06-12 01:56:10 <MC1984> still trying to stir fud
211 2011-06-12 01:56:13 <gjs278> where is the list
212 2011-06-12 01:56:45 <jgarzik> ArtForz: Long term, one proposal is to swap weusecoins forum with current forum, and enforce "business professional" code of conduct on the new forum
213 2011-06-12 01:56:49 <jgarzik> gjs278: sourceforge
214 2011-06-12 01:57:03 <gjs278> ok
215 2011-06-12 01:57:23 <ArtForz> jgarzik: soudns good
216 2011-06-12 01:58:14 <ArtForz> trying to read up in the general and mining forums... ugh.
217 2011-06-12 01:58:18 <jgarzik> indeed
218 2011-06-12 01:59:04 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
219 2011-06-12 01:59:06 discHead has joined
220 2011-06-12 02:00:00 <dirtyfilthy> i think somethingawful good squad has been deployed
221 2011-06-12 02:00:05 <noagendamarket> yep
222 2011-06-12 02:00:20 <noagendamarket> someone paid a bounty to have their site hacked
223 2011-06-12 02:00:26 <noagendamarket> lol
224 2011-06-12 02:00:29 <phantomcircuit> Kireji, there is a sendmany rpc call for miners
225 2011-06-12 02:00:53 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
226 2011-06-12 02:01:07 EPiSKiNG- has joined
227 2011-06-12 02:01:27 <jgarzik> anyway, until the forum swap, we need triage
228 2011-06-12 02:01:36 <jgarzik> either "no newbie posts" or "newbies cannot create threads" or somesuch
229 2011-06-12 02:01:47 <ArtForz> how about "nuke it from orbit" ?
230 2011-06-12 02:01:56 johnlockwood has joined
231 2011-06-12 02:01:58 <ArtForz> j/k
232 2011-06-12 02:02:07 <ArtForz> well, it's the only way to be sure...
233 2011-06-12 02:02:09 <jgarzik> :)
234 2011-06-12 02:02:53 <z310> noagendamarket: you're still around
235 2011-06-12 02:02:56 <z310> nice to see you again
236 2011-06-12 02:03:02 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
237 2011-06-12 02:03:06 <noagendamarket> I am
238 2011-06-12 02:03:15 <z310> i could have assumed :)
239 2011-06-12 02:03:16 <noagendamarket> Im like a barnacle
240 2011-06-12 02:03:21 <noagendamarket> :)
241 2011-06-12 02:03:30 <fmetro> g2g all, bbye ;)
242 2011-06-12 02:03:31 <z310> i personally wouldn't call myself a barnacle
243 2011-06-12 02:03:31 blueadept has joined
244 2011-06-12 02:03:44 <noagendamarket> lol
245 2011-06-12 02:04:02 fmetro has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
246 2011-06-12 02:04:12 <z310> I'm still using that Sansa Clip+
247 2011-06-12 02:04:15 <z310> great music player
248 2011-06-12 02:05:23 bb has joined
249 2011-06-12 02:05:46 <bb> k
250 2011-06-12 02:05:51 <bb> ;;
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252 2011-06-12 02:06:34 pRjck3vC has joined
253 2011-06-12 02:07:45 <bb> ;;bc,estimate
254 2011-06-12 02:07:45 <gribble> 820298.77858096
255 2011-06-12 02:08:59 <lorph> is it possible to get the blocknumber from a block, or do I have to call getblockcount and getwork at the same time and hope the last transaction didn't change between these 2 calls
256 2011-06-12 02:10:49 kiba` has joined
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258 2011-06-12 02:11:21 <[Tycho]> Creating a pool ?
259 2011-06-12 02:11:50 <lorph> yes
260 2011-06-12 02:12:17 <[Tycho]> You can just add the RPC command to bitcoind
261 2011-06-12 02:12:42 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
262 2011-06-12 02:12:58 brooss has joined
263 2011-06-12 02:13:55 <lorph> [Tycho]: so there's no way to get the blocknumber from a block?
264 2011-06-12 02:14:32 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
265 2011-06-12 02:15:15 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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267 2011-06-12 02:16:50 <MC1984> wow the bitcoin forums are irredeemable
268 2011-06-12 02:16:51 NOTAL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
269 2011-06-12 02:17:30 <machine1> http://members.beforeitsnews.com/story/708/539/Alert:_Bitcoin_Possible_C.I.A._Operation_14.00_Rtq.html
270 2011-06-12 02:18:56 <alystair> wtf?
271 2011-06-12 02:19:03 <alystair> title has nothing to do with blog?
272 2011-06-12 02:19:11 <alystair> keep that shit out of -dev
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279 2011-06-12 02:31:39 <jgarzik> MC1984: yes
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282 2011-06-12 02:37:04 <brocktice> MC1984: Yeah I haven't delved in much lately, I hear it's troll central?
283 2011-06-12 02:38:07 seeARMS_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
284 2011-06-12 02:38:16 <noagendamarket> the forums hit a trollberg
285 2011-06-12 02:39:26 Moonies has joined
286 2011-06-12 02:39:47 <Zarutian> eh wut?
287 2011-06-12 02:40:35 <Diablo-D3> heh
288 2011-06-12 02:40:40 theymos has joined
289 2011-06-12 02:40:43 <Diablo-D3> the bitcoin forums are just too high traffic
290 2011-06-12 02:40:48 <theymos> Who here uses the forum a lot and wants to be a mod?
291 2011-06-12 02:40:49 <Diablo-D3> I dont read any of it except very specific threads
292 2011-06-12 02:40:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: me.
293 2011-06-12 02:41:04 <Diablo-D3> I just want mod powers on the mining part
294 2011-06-12 02:41:37 <jgarzik> theymos: will you give me permission to lock just about even damn thread? :) or prevent newbies from creating new threads?
295 2011-06-12 02:41:38 <theymos> Your account is "DiabloD3"?
296 2011-06-12 02:41:42 <jgarzik> *every
297 2011-06-12 02:41:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yes
298 2011-06-12 02:41:57 <theymos> No point in locking them -- just delete troll threads.
299 2011-06-12 02:42:05 <jgarzik> that works too
300 2011-06-12 02:42:14 <noagendamarket> lock them unless you have certain post levels
301 2011-06-12 02:42:30 <theymos> They're all backed up in case of false positives. There's too much junk. Lots needs to be deleted.
302 2011-06-12 02:42:37 <jgarzik> yep
303 2011-06-12 02:42:57 <jgarzik> theymos: and _please_ don't post a "moved" or "deleted" thread, for each one...
304 2011-06-12 02:42:58 <Diablo-D3> theymos: you can set it so only established users can start threads
305 2011-06-12 02:43:00 <jgarzik> shades of Kiba
306 2011-06-12 02:43:22 <theymos> I'm going to prevent non-established posters from posting at all for a while.
307 2011-06-12 02:43:46 <Diablo-D3> why not just turn registrations off for awhile
308 2011-06-12 02:43:52 <Diablo-D3> OOH
309 2011-06-12 02:43:53 <Diablo-D3> I KNOW
310 2011-06-12 02:43:55 <Diablo-D3> HEY THEYMOS
311 2011-06-12 02:44:03 <Diablo-D3> MAKE PEOPLE PAY BTC FOR NEW ACCOUNT
312 2011-06-12 02:44:13 <theymos> jgarzik and Diablo are now global moderators (for now). Please only delete spam and trolling.
313 2011-06-12 02:44:31 se7h has joined
314 2011-06-12 02:44:33 <Diablo-D3> theymos: how do I sticky threads?
315 2011-06-12 02:44:39 <theymos> Don't sticky threads.
316 2011-06-12 02:44:41 seeARMS has joined
317 2011-06-12 02:44:42 <Diablo-D3> =/
318 2011-06-12 02:44:45 <Diablo-D3> mining needs it
319 2011-06-12 02:44:50 <Diablo-D3> the rest of the board doesnt
320 2011-06-12 02:45:05 <Diablo-D3> important miner/pool threads are being driven off the first page
321 2011-06-12 02:45:25 <theymos> Mining needs more categories, then. What do you propose?
322 2011-06-12 02:45:55 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
323 2011-06-12 02:46:00 <se7h> Diablo-D3: hello, could you tell me why a ps3 is so 'weak' doing the calculations?
324 2011-06-12 02:46:22 <se7h> or someone else..
325 2011-06-12 02:46:23 <Diablo-D3> theymos: well not as much as that...
326 2011-06-12 02:46:33 <Diablo-D3> se7h: because its not as powerful as people think it is
327 2011-06-12 02:46:45 <Diablo-D3> even in normal gaming, it not powerful
328 2011-06-12 02:46:49 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
329 2011-06-12 02:46:54 <Diablo-D3> I can buy video cards that use more watts than the original fat ps3
330 2011-06-12 02:47:02 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
331 2011-06-12 02:47:12 <se7h> Diablo-D3: right, i figured that much, but wasnt ps3 supposed to be kickass computing on the cpu level ?
332 2011-06-12 02:47:16 <Diablo-D3> theymos: well, maybe people shouldnt be allowed to post new threads in mining
333 2011-06-12 02:47:34 <Diablo-D3> se7h: not even close, what people jerked off to was the Cell SPEs which are essentially high speed DSPs
334 2011-06-12 02:47:50 <Diablo-D3> se7h: which is zero difference then how miners use gpgpus
335 2011-06-12 02:48:01 <Diablo-D3> except gpgus have vastly more hardware dedicated to it
336 2011-06-12 02:48:37 <Diablo-D3> PS3s were old tech when they were brand new
337 2011-06-12 02:48:45 <se7h> Diablo-D3: so the multi-code thing isnt really a big thing about it?
338 2011-06-12 02:48:51 <se7h> or multi SPE..
339 2011-06-12 02:48:57 <Diablo-D3> Sony overstated the power of the PS3
340 2011-06-12 02:48:58 <se7h> i dont even know what a SPE is
341 2011-06-12 02:49:03 <se7h> hum i see
342 2011-06-12 02:49:09 <Diablo-D3> SPE are those little processor cores that make the Cell what it is
343 2011-06-12 02:49:34 <Diablo-D3> games use them from anything from sound decoding, mixing, and whatever to graphics shader drawing
344 2011-06-12 02:49:47 DrDeke has joined
345 2011-06-12 02:49:57 <Diablo-D3> the nvidia gpu in it is basically a cut down series 7 gpu
346 2011-06-12 02:50:31 <Diablo-D3> so half the GPU task is being done by the Cell processor
347 2011-06-12 02:50:37 <se7h> well i was already convinced about the gpu not being that good, but i thought it would do better on the cpu
348 2011-06-12 02:50:39 <Diablo-D3> game development for the PS3, btw, is a bitch
349 2011-06-12 02:50:47 <Diablo-D3> se7h: well
350 2011-06-12 02:50:52 <Diablo-D3> the SPEs are in the CPU package
351 2011-06-12 02:50:55 <Diablo-D3> but they're not CPU cores
352 2011-06-12 02:51:43 <Diablo-D3> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cell_Processor#Synergistic_Processing_Elements_.28SPE.29
353 2011-06-12 02:52:02 <se7h> thats too bad, i'll have to retire mine sooner then :>
354 2011-06-12 02:52:10 Juffo-Wup has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
355 2011-06-12 02:52:13 plutonic has quit (Quit: plutonic)
356 2011-06-12 02:52:19 <Diablo-D3> se7h: they're interesting, but all they did was approach the mass parallel computation problem from the high speed simple RISC side of the problem
357 2011-06-12 02:52:48 <Diablo-D3> GPU makers approached that problem from the massively parallel specialized DSP end of the problem
358 2011-06-12 02:53:10 <Diablo-D3> if they made a chip with, say, 128 3ghz SPEs on it, you'd have something
359 2011-06-12 02:53:26 <Diablo-D3> a PS3 has 8, and 1 is always in use by the OS
360 2011-06-12 02:53:42 <se7h> yup
361 2011-06-12 02:53:43 kreal- has joined
362 2011-06-12 02:54:11 <z310> Diablo-D3: are you an engineer?
363 2011-06-12 02:54:16 <Diablo-D3> z310: no
364 2011-06-12 02:54:54 <z310> i'm only curious
365 2011-06-12 02:55:24 <Diablo-D3> theymos: but yeah, Im thinking maybe mining shouldnt allow new threads at all ever
366 2011-06-12 02:55:50 <theymos> What would be the point of it, then?
367 2011-06-12 02:55:52 <se7h> well ps3 is already 10yo or something...
368 2011-06-12 02:55:54 <Diablo-D3> theymos: and maybe a different section for "look at my rig" masturbation
369 2011-06-12 02:56:09 <Diablo-D3> theymos: well, mining should be software and pools only
370 2011-06-12 02:56:17 <Diablo-D3> and maybe a perm "help questions go here" thread
371 2011-06-12 02:56:46 <theymos> So I should create subcategories for "check out my rig" and "mining support"?
372 2011-06-12 02:57:11 woha_ has joined
373 2011-06-12 02:59:29 <seeARMS> Probably a section for pools / software? There aren't many "check out my rig" threads as it is
374 2011-06-12 02:59:56 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
375 2011-06-12 03:01:31 <Diablo-D3> theymos: maybe not SUB categories
376 2011-06-12 03:01:49 <Diablo-D3> theymos: but maybe turn mining into the mining category for official threads?
377 2011-06-12 03:01:53 earthmeLon has joined
378 2011-06-12 03:01:53 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
379 2011-06-12 03:01:53 earthmeLon has joined
380 2011-06-12 03:02:04 <Lachesis> jeez, bitcoin-otc is crazy
381 2011-06-12 03:02:09 <jrmithdobbs> is there a reason bitcoind's json-rpc implementation spits back errors in text/html instead of application/json?
382 2011-06-12 03:02:13 <Lachesis> people are dumb, eh?
383 2011-06-12 03:02:18 <jrmithdobbs> shit's annoying
384 2011-06-12 03:02:24 <Lachesis> OMG BITCOIN IS ENDING!
385 2011-06-12 03:02:29 <jrmithdobbs> lol
386 2011-06-12 03:02:29 <Joric> $11.8 currently at mtgox
387 2011-06-12 03:02:34 <jrmithdobbs> market corrections are fun
388 2011-06-12 03:02:43 <Lachesis> why don't people realize that the _magnitude_ of bitcoin's price is unrelated to bitcoin's success?
389 2011-06-12 03:02:53 <Lachesis> the volatility is important
390 2011-06-12 03:03:10 <jrmithdobbs> the volatility (up OR down) is actually counterproductive to long term success
391 2011-06-12 03:03:11 <Lachesis> but if they're $5 or $5000 / BTC matter pretty little (i guess except to people who have bitcoins :D)
392 2011-06-12 03:03:18 <Lachesis> jrmithdobbs, yeah
393 2011-06-12 03:03:52 <Lachesis> hmm we need to split bitcoin-otc from bitcoin-trading somehow
394 2011-06-12 03:04:09 QDef is now known as QDef|Sleep
395 2011-06-12 03:04:16 <jrmithdobbs> why? that's the point of -otc isn't it?
396 2011-06-12 03:05:00 bb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
397 2011-06-12 03:06:05 <seeARMS> Anyone know why I'm unable to round bitcoin amounts correctly using PHP?
398 2011-06-12 03:06:22 <jrmithdobbs> because you're using floats
399 2011-06-12 03:06:34 <seeARMS> I've used the function here and it still hasn't been working: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)
400 2011-06-12 03:06:56 <jrmithdobbs> define 'correctly' and "hasn't been working"
401 2011-06-12 03:07:07 <jgarzik> theymos: how/where do I delete an entire thread?
402 2011-06-12 03:07:25 <jgarzik> theymos: I see 'Delete' beside each post, but not at top where I would expect
403 2011-06-12 03:07:28 <theymos> jgarzik: Bottom of the thread, "remove topic".
404 2011-06-12 03:08:01 jivvz has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
405 2011-06-12 03:08:26 <jgarzik> theymos: tnx
406 2011-06-12 03:08:55 <seeARMS> jrmithdobbs: Using the function, it returns a value of 0 BTC, whereas the real value is something like 0.000001
407 2011-06-12 03:08:56 Lachesis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
408 2011-06-12 03:09:13 <Diablo-D3> [11:02:08] <jrmithdobbs> is there a reason bitcoind's json-rpc implementation spits back errors in text/html instead of application/json?
409 2011-06-12 03:09:13 <theymos> SMF is really not good for fighting trolls. It's too much work to take any administrative action. I used to moderate on a site where moderation was so easy a single person could fight an active invasion of twice this size or more. Probably I'll make modifications in this area once I get time.
410 2011-06-12 03:09:18 <Diablo-D3> because it pisses me off
411 2011-06-12 03:09:29 <Diablo-D3> theymos: man, I should write a fucking forum
412 2011-06-12 03:09:35 <Diablo-D3> and you know what I'll have?
413 2011-06-12 03:09:37 <Diablo-D3> pay to post.
414 2011-06-12 03:10:08 <Diablo-D3> do like 100 posts for 1 btc
415 2011-06-12 03:10:15 <Diablo-D3> and a new thread costs 10 posts
416 2011-06-12 03:10:44 clojure has joined
417 2011-06-12 03:12:27 genewitch has joined
418 2011-06-12 03:12:53 <genewitch> I'm trying to submit pathes to two projects on the forums but i can't post on the forums anymore --- what gives?
419 2011-06-12 03:12:58 <genewitch> patches*
420 2011-06-12 03:13:10 <jgarzik> theymos: ugh
421 2011-06-12 03:13:17 <jgarzik> theymos: fscking impossible, with the forum so slow
422 2011-06-12 03:13:19 <jgarzik> I give up
423 2011-06-12 03:13:21 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
424 2011-06-12 03:13:24 <Diablo-D3> heh
425 2011-06-12 03:13:29 <theymos> It seems pretty fast to me.
426 2011-06-12 03:13:30 <Diablo-D3> its written in php
427 2011-06-12 03:13:31 <Diablo-D3> thats why
428 2011-06-12 03:13:39 <Diablo-D3> theymos: nope, it shits out for me too sometimes
429 2011-06-12 03:14:05 <theymos> genewitch: Newbies can't post outside of "newbies". Post it there, and if it's good it will get moved elsewhere (and you'll able to reply to it there).
430 2011-06-12 03:14:07 <jgarzik> theymos: deleting 1,001 troll threads one at a time is... tedious, even if it only takes ~10-20 seconds per thread
431 2011-06-12 03:14:27 <theymos> jgarzik: enable quick-moderation in your profile settings. You'll get checkboxes for threads.
432 2011-06-12 03:15:14 <theymos> Here's the page with the setting: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=35;sa=theme . It's near the bottom.
433 2011-06-12 03:15:24 <noagendamarket> can we get a proper forum software ffs
434 2011-06-12 03:15:29 <jgarzik> theymos: that helps
435 2011-06-12 03:15:34 <genewitch> theymos: i've been posting all day... it just blocked me out after 6 hours
436 2011-06-12 03:15:42 <theymos> genewitch: I just changed the policy.
437 2011-06-12 03:16:23 <lorph> bitcoin addresses are 33 bytes max right
438 2011-06-12 03:16:27 <genewitch> theymos: http://paste.ubuntu.com/624849/ is my patch for simplecoin. I've been busting my ass trying to clean up pushpool and simplecoin the best i can for 2 days on 2 OSes. i don't really want to "newbie" it up
439 2011-06-12 03:16:35 apsoa has joined
440 2011-06-12 03:16:38 <jgarzik> theymos: can we disable animated images?
441 2011-06-12 03:16:40 <theymos> genewitch: I will whitelist you. Just a moment.
442 2011-06-12 03:16:44 <genewitch> Thank you sir.
443 2011-06-12 03:16:48 <jgarzik> theymos: image spam drowns out a lot of threads, too
444 2011-06-12 03:16:49 <genewitch> or ma'am
445 2011-06-12 03:17:39 DavidSJ has joined
446 2011-06-12 03:17:44 <Diablo-D3> dear lord
447 2011-06-12 03:17:48 <Diablo-D3> the rest of the forum
448 2011-06-12 03:17:51 <Diablo-D3> is whacko bullshit
449 2011-06-12 03:17:57 <theymos> Delete it all.
450 2011-06-12 03:18:03 <luke-jr> theymos: what will it take to split the dev/mining forums appropriately?
451 2011-06-12 03:18:04 <Diablo-D3> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15351.msg204817
452 2011-06-12 03:18:08 <Diablo-D3> this thread for one
453 2011-06-12 03:18:42 <Diablo-D3> theymos: think I should nuke it? its troll vs troll vs troll cagematch kinda shit
454 2011-06-12 03:19:05 <theymos> I locked it because there seemed to be some OK responses. But I dont' really care.
455 2011-06-12 03:19:12 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
456 2011-06-12 03:19:27 <Diablo-D3> so I can nuke it? I dont think we really need this shit even readable
457 2011-06-12 03:19:34 <theymos> Sure.
458 2011-06-12 03:19:42 <luke-jr> eek, does Diablo-D3 have mod access? :|
459 2011-06-12 03:19:44 <genewitch> I didn't notice much spam on the devel boards
460 2011-06-12 03:19:55 <luke-jr> genewitch: it could use categorization though
461 2011-06-12 03:19:59 <Diablo-D3> 15_year_old_blonde probably should be banned too
462 2011-06-12 03:20:07 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Already done.
463 2011-06-12 03:20:11 pogden has joined
464 2011-06-12 03:20:13 <luke-jr> genewitch: for the many different softwares or at least types of software
465 2011-06-12 03:20:15 LightRIder is now known as afk!~LightRide@unaffiliated/lightrider|LightRider
466 2011-06-12 03:20:34 <genewitch> do i have to delete a cookie to get my "reply" button back?
467 2011-06-12 03:20:55 <theymos> genewitch: Are you able to post now?
468 2011-06-12 03:21:35 <seeARMS> Anyone else have an idea why PHP isn't rounding BTC amounts correctly?
469 2011-06-12 03:21:39 gasteve has joined
470 2011-06-12 03:21:42 Twoheaded has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
471 2011-06-12 03:21:52 <genewitch> theymos: no, not in the Bitcoin Forum > Bitcoin > Project Development
472 2011-06-12 03:21:55 <luke-jr> seeARMS: you're handling it properly as integers?
473 2011-06-12 03:21:55 <genewitch> threads
474 2011-06-12 03:21:58 <theymos> genewitch: Oh, wait. It didn't work. It might take me a bit to figure this out.
475 2011-06-12 03:22:47 earthmeLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
476 2011-06-12 03:22:59 <seeARMS> If I cast it as an integer, or use the function here, it still doesn't work: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)
477 2011-06-12 03:23:17 <underscor> ;;bc,mtgoxlast
478 2011-06-12 03:23:18 <gribble> 12.01
479 2011-06-12 03:23:18 <luke-jr> seeARMS: be more specific
480 2011-06-12 03:23:35 <luke-jr> what value doesn't work?
481 2011-06-12 03:23:51 <underscor> Wow, btc really crashed, didn't it
482 2011-06-12 03:23:54 <genewitch> i'll wait, it's just a bunch of annoyances in the two packages
483 2011-06-12 03:24:19 <seeARMS> luke-jr: I'm doing this: $balance = $bitcoin->getbalance((string)$_SESSION['usr']);
484 2011-06-12 03:24:26 <seeARMS> Then: $balance = JSONtoAmount($balance);
485 2011-06-12 03:24:36 <luke-jr> seeARMS: what is the balance from JSON?
486 2011-06-12 03:24:45 <seeARMS> Something like 0.00001
487 2011-06-12 03:24:55 <seeARMS> PHP is reporting it as 0
488 2011-06-12 03:25:01 <luke-jr> works for me
489 2011-06-12 03:25:06 <luke-jr> oh
490 2011-06-12 03:25:12 <luke-jr> there's a typo on that page
491 2011-06-12 03:25:12 discHead has quit (Quit: discHead)
492 2011-06-12 03:25:17 <luke-jr> the value is misisng a $
493 2011-06-12 03:25:28 <luke-jr> try adding it
494 2011-06-12 03:25:28 <seeARMS> -__________-
495 2011-06-12 03:25:32 <seeARMS> Can't believe I missed that
496 2011-06-12 03:25:45 <seeARMS> I even tried doing that manually: round($balance * 1e8)
497 2011-06-12 03:25:51 <seeARMS> And it didn't work. Regardless, I'll try the function
498 2011-06-12 03:27:07 <seeARMS> luke-jr: Now it's reporting the value as 1. Manually and with the fixed function.
499 2011-06-12 03:27:12 earthmeLon has joined
500 2011-06-12 03:27:13 <genewitch> theymos: it's not done by number of posts? cause i have 26 posts, normally forum software triggers on 5 posts without links/images
501 2011-06-12 03:27:24 <luke-jr> seeARMS: please confirm the input value
502 2011-06-12 03:27:46 fimp has joined
503 2011-06-12 03:27:54 Twoheaded has joined
504 2011-06-12 03:28:24 Jere_Jones has joined
505 2011-06-12 03:28:59 <Diablo-D3> theymos: you really think stickeying a very small number of threads in mining is bad?
506 2011-06-12 03:29:11 <Diablo-D3> threads like diablominer and deepbit and poclbm and whatever else shouldnt be able to be buried
507 2011-06-12 03:29:20 <luke-jr> Deepbit should be buried
508 2011-06-12 03:29:22 <luke-jr> very deep
509 2011-06-12 03:29:45 <genewitch> seeARMS: pastebin your function
510 2011-06-12 03:30:03 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: hurr
511 2011-06-12 03:30:03 <genewitch> oh nevermind i scrolled up
512 2011-06-12 03:30:15 <genewitch> luke-jr: are you from foonetic or #gentoo
513 2011-06-12 03:30:28 <luke-jr> genewitch: #gentoo rarely
514 2011-06-12 03:30:34 buttpwner has joined
515 2011-06-12 03:30:38 <genewitch> i've seen you around the networks
516 2011-06-12 03:30:40 anderson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
517 2011-06-12 03:30:40 <theymos> genewitch: OK, you should be able to post now.
518 2011-06-12 03:30:46 <genewitch> theymos: thanks, checking
519 2011-06-12 03:30:46 <seeARMS> luke-jr: There's an amount of 0.00000001 BTC in my account so it should work :/
520 2011-06-12 03:30:47 <theymos> Diablo-D3: Go ahead.
521 2011-06-12 03:31:03 <luke-jr> theymos: why the heck is Diablo-D3 a mod? he's a freaking troll
522 2011-06-12 03:31:12 <genewitch> yes it looks like it will let me
523 2011-06-12 03:31:14 <Gekz> says the troll.
524 2011-06-12 03:31:17 <luke-jr> seeARMS: that *is* 1
525 2011-06-12 03:31:56 <theymos> luke-jr: Maybe that will help him to identify other trolls. ;)
526 2011-06-12 03:32:09 <luke-jr> theymos: or do retarded stuff like pin Deepbit?
527 2011-06-12 03:32:14 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: dude, Ive been around since the start of bitcoin
528 2011-06-12 03:32:20 <Diablo-D3> you REALLY think Im a troll?
529 2011-06-12 03:32:28 <Diablo-D3> because if Im a troll, satoshi is the biggest troll ever
530 2011-06-12 03:32:29 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: everyone knows you're a troll
531 2011-06-12 03:33:14 <ArtForz> luke-jr: stone. meet glass house.
532 2011-06-12 03:33:16 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you still trying to tell pools what difficulty their shares should be?
533 2011-06-12 03:33:19 <theymos> Global mods made tonight are probably temporary. This mess just needs to be cleaned up. Though DiabloD3 will probably stay at least a local mod of mining, since he is a long-time community member with expertise in this area.
534 2011-06-12 03:33:20 woha_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
535 2011-06-12 03:33:27 discHead has joined
536 2011-06-12 03:33:27 discHead has quit (Changing host)
537 2011-06-12 03:33:27 discHead has joined
538 2011-06-12 03:33:29 <seeARMS> luke-jr: It's 1? :O So what would it report 1 actual BTC as? 100000000?
539 2011-06-12 03:33:47 <luke-jr> theymos: Deepbit is a threat to the entire Bitcoin network, and he wants to make that problem worse?
540 2011-06-12 03:33:56 <luke-jr> seeARMS: yes
541 2011-06-12 03:33:59 <theymos> I'm not concerned too much about Deepbit.
542 2011-06-12 03:34:06 <luke-jr> seeARMS: 1 BTC = 100,000,000 raw units
543 2011-06-12 03:34:14 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr; uh, I never had that argument with anyone
544 2011-06-12 03:34:21 <luke-jr> seeARMS: but if you show it to users, obviously show it in BTC or mBTC (or TBC) today
545 2011-06-12 03:34:22 <Diablo-D3> diff 1 is perfectly fine
546 2011-06-12 03:34:24 alystair has quit (Quit: â(ã»_ã»)âOUTTA HEREâ(ã»oã»)â)
547 2011-06-12 03:34:32 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I keep hearing people complain about it
548 2011-06-12 03:34:39 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: almost no pools use diff 1
549 2011-06-12 03:34:39 <seeARMS> luke-jr: Got it, thanks
550 2011-06-12 03:34:49 <Diablo-D3> I consider 2^32 a variant of diff 1.
551 2011-06-12 03:35:12 <Diablo-D3> ie, H==0
552 2011-06-12 03:35:21 <Diablo-D3> as long as the pool hands out a valid target, who cares what the diff is
553 2011-06-12 03:35:27 <genewitch> don't worry, deepbit workers will get bored and move on
554 2011-06-12 03:35:29 * luke-jr wonders why people complain about you on that topic then O.o
555 2011-06-12 03:35:31 <Diablo-D3> well, as long as the target is > H==0
556 2011-06-12 03:35:49 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: probably because diablominer checks solution validity
557 2011-06-12 03:36:29 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: ok, I apologize for assuming every complaint about you is accurate.
558 2011-06-12 03:36:36 <noagendamarket> If you want to catch trolls who better than a troll ?
559 2011-06-12 03:36:39 <noagendamarket> lol
560 2011-06-12 03:37:24 vikarti has joined
561 2011-06-12 03:38:25 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: has anyone tested diablominer with your pool?
562 2011-06-12 03:38:59 n0n0 has joined
563 2011-06-12 03:39:03 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: presumably
564 2011-06-12 03:39:03 Moonies has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
565 2011-06-12 03:39:11 <Diablo-D3> just wondering if it works right
566 2011-06-12 03:39:16 <luke-jr> tbh, I didn't really pay attention to their results
567 2011-06-12 03:39:35 <Diablo-D3> heh
568 2011-06-12 03:39:52 Taveren93HGK has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
569 2011-06-12 03:39:53 Guchimane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
570 2011-06-12 03:39:54 <Diablo-D3> well, there should be no reason it doesnt since my miner works on deepbit, slush's, and mine
571 2011-06-12 03:39:56 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
572 2011-06-12 03:40:09 <theymos> I'm using Diablo-Miner on Eligius right now, though I haven't received a payout yet.
573 2011-06-12 03:40:20 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: wanna pin Eligius? :p
574 2011-06-12 03:40:28 mmoya has joined
575 2011-06-12 03:40:32 <luke-jr> theymos: I didn't know you used Eligius! :P
576 2011-06-12 03:40:41 <luke-jr> theymos: #Eligius has a nice community fwiw
577 2011-06-12 03:40:55 <Gekz> luke-jr: do they all attend the same church?
578 2011-06-12 03:41:14 <luke-jr> Gekz: no?
579 2011-06-12 03:41:19 <Gekz> lawl
580 2011-06-12 03:41:30 <luke-jr> â¦
581 2011-06-12 03:41:40 muffinz has joined
582 2011-06-12 03:41:45 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: give me the url
583 2011-06-12 03:41:57 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6667.500
584 2011-06-12 03:42:20 <theymos> I probably won't keep mining in the long-term. My room was just cold during the last few days, so I thought I'd mine to warm it up and try out the new pools. (The last pool I was in was the puddinpop pool.)
585 2011-06-12 03:42:37 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: btw, your op post, edit it
586 2011-06-12 03:42:41 <luke-jr> lol
587 2011-06-12 03:42:46 <Diablo-D3> you dont type out the entire java command anymore
588 2011-06-12 03:42:54 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: then what?
589 2011-06-12 03:43:07 <Diablo-D3> its just DiabloMiner-Windows.exe (or -Linux.sh or -OSX.sh)
590 2011-06-12 03:44:04 <luke-jr> [b][color=green]DiabloMiner[/color][/b]: DiabloMiner-Windows.exe -u [u][i]YourAddress[/i][/u] -p x -o mining.eligius.st -r 8337 -g 5
591 2011-06-12 03:44:05 <luke-jr> ?
592 2011-06-12 03:44:24 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: you dont use passwords right? you can drop the -p
593 2011-06-12 03:44:34 <Diablo-D3> and it does longpoll now, so it ignores -g
594 2011-06-12 03:44:40 <Diablo-D3> and -g defaulted to 5 anyhow
595 2011-06-12 03:45:28 <spq> hm, whats required to open an exchange?
596 2011-06-12 03:45:39 <Diablo-D3> spq: nothing, but the legal aspect is very daunting
597 2011-06-12 03:46:08 <genewitch> my pool is sitting 1 block behind all the other ones
598 2011-06-12 03:46:10 <spq> so only a lawyer review about how to do it...?
599 2011-06-12 03:46:21 ar4s has joined
600 2011-06-12 03:46:35 <genewitch> Diablo-D3: i thought it was legal but the problem was fraudsters
601 2011-06-12 03:46:38 <Diablo-D3> spq: well, for one, if you're in the US, or you have any US customers, you have to report on them if they do more than iirc $1k transactions per month
602 2011-06-12 03:47:04 <spq> well, im in the us
603 2011-06-12 03:47:07 <spq> ahm
604 2011-06-12 03:47:15 <Diablo-D3> spq: also, accepting basically any actual cash means some institution can reverse the transaction which puts EVERY user of the exchange at risk
605 2011-06-12 03:47:15 <spq> im not in the us :P
606 2011-06-12 03:47:31 <genewitch> yeah, chargebacks, since you can't chargeback BTC.
607 2011-06-12 03:47:35 cacheson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
608 2011-06-12 03:47:41 <genewitch> but you can chargeback a visa or a paypal transaction
609 2011-06-12 03:47:41 <Diablo-D3> you dont have to be in the us, but it also applies to foreign exchanges that accept US users
610 2011-06-12 03:47:57 <Diablo-D3> you can chargeback tons of shit
611 2011-06-12 03:48:05 pnicholson has joined
612 2011-06-12 03:48:13 <spq> hmm, i thought about only accepthing non chargeback stuff
613 2011-06-12 03:48:35 <Diablo-D3> spq: money orders if they're secure in your country and then old them for 2 weeks is an option
614 2011-06-12 03:48:40 <netxshare> Diablo-D3: when was the last release of your miner?
615 2011-06-12 03:48:45 <Diablo-D3> ACHs are dangerous in the US, but apparently not in Europe
616 2011-06-12 03:48:51 <luke-jr> theymos: forums are erroring
617 2011-06-12 03:48:55 <luke-jr> Notice: Undefined index: ignore_show in /var/www/bitcoin/smf/Sources/Display.php on line 791
618 2011-06-12 03:48:55 <Diablo-D3> netxshare: hrm, 2-3 days ago I think, check github
619 2011-06-12 03:48:56 <theymos> What error?
620 2011-06-12 03:49:00 <spq> ACHs?
621 2011-06-12 03:49:02 <theymos> Still happening?
622 2011-06-12 03:49:11 <luke-jr> yes
623 2011-06-12 03:49:16 <Diablo-D3> spq: automated clearing house... electronic draft for checking accounts, etc
624 2011-06-12 03:49:16 <theymos> What page?
625 2011-06-12 03:49:16 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
626 2011-06-12 03:49:17 <luke-jr> at least on https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6667.msg97375#msg97375
627 2011-06-12 03:49:25 <luke-jr> at the top
628 2011-06-12 03:49:27 <luke-jr> above the header
629 2011-06-12 03:49:42 <Diablo-D3> looks like config error
630 2011-06-12 03:50:07 <theymos> Gone now. I was trying to install the "ignore user" mod, but it must be broken.
631 2011-06-12 03:50:19 <spq> Diablo-D3: i thought about using moneybookers...
632 2011-06-12 03:50:42 <Diablo-D3> spq: not safe.
633 2011-06-12 03:50:47 <spq> why?
634 2011-06-12 03:50:50 <luke-jr> theymos: wanna test out https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14947.msg201823#msg201823 too?
635 2011-06-12 03:50:51 <Diablo-D3> they've been known to just lock accounts and steal their money
636 2011-06-12 03:50:58 <Diablo-D3> they're like paypal but sleazier
637 2011-06-12 03:51:35 <spq> well paypal has reasons
638 2011-06-12 03:51:40 <spq> they forbid it
639 2011-06-12 03:51:43 <genewitch> paypal can suck my peg
640 2011-06-12 03:51:44 <theymos> luke-jr: More people need to review that one. You said there might be bugs. I don't want to spend hours fixing problems caused by unexpected bugs (like I did yesterday)...
641 2011-06-12 03:51:44 <spq> mb doesnt
642 2011-06-12 03:51:55 <Diablo-D3> spq: Im not even talking btc related
643 2011-06-12 03:51:57 <Diablo-D3> just in general
644 2011-06-12 03:52:03 <luke-jr> theymos: easy to revert if it breaks? :p
645 2011-06-12 03:52:03 <genewitch> does the pushpoold dev ever come in here?
646 2011-06-12 03:52:06 <Diablo-D3> anyone know the url for poclbm?
647 2011-06-12 03:52:12 <luke-jr> genewitch: yes, jgarzik
648 2011-06-12 03:52:27 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's on github
649 2011-06-12 03:52:28 <genewitch> github jgarzik master
650 2011-06-12 03:52:35 <Diablo-D3> I meant the thread
651 2011-06-12 03:52:40 <luke-jr> o
652 2011-06-12 03:52:45 <Diablo-D3> and phoenix's thread too
653 2011-06-12 03:52:49 <Diablo-D3> I cant fucking find them
654 2011-06-12 03:52:52 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: adding stickies?
655 2011-06-12 03:52:55 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yeah
656 2011-06-12 03:52:58 <jgarzik> cool
657 2011-06-12 03:52:59 <luke-jr> phoenix has lots of issues with Eligius for some people
658 2011-06-12 03:53:02 <genewitch> Diablo-D3: oh i have those
659 2011-06-12 03:53:04 <luke-jr> no idea why
660 2011-06-12 03:53:10 <spq> so u mean one has to make contracts with banks to accept money and be able to send money?
661 2011-06-12 03:53:11 <luke-jr> other people report no problem
662 2011-06-12 03:53:19 <Diablo-D3> OHOHOH
663 2011-06-12 03:53:24 <Diablo-D3> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=14001
664 2011-06-12 03:53:26 <Diablo-D3> see that avatar?
665 2011-06-12 03:53:29 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: do cpuminer while you're at it: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=1925.0
666 2011-06-12 03:53:32 <genewitch> Diablo-D3: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=1334.0
667 2011-06-12 03:53:33 quellhorst has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
668 2011-06-12 03:53:40 <genewitch> dor pypoclbm
669 2011-06-12 03:53:42 <Diablo-D3> thats a very well known hentai artist :D
670 2011-06-12 03:55:19 quellhorst has joined
671 2011-06-12 03:55:45 <Diablo-D3> okay I have dm, cpuminer, poclbm stickied, and deepbit, btcbuild, bitcoins.lc, and swepool and eligius
672 2011-06-12 03:56:44 <genewitch> are those pools?
673 2011-06-12 03:56:52 <genewitch> i wish my pool updated the database properly
674 2011-06-12 03:56:55 <genewitch> :-(
675 2011-06-12 03:57:04 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: if you sticky every pool and every miner, it will be a page full of sticky ;)
676 2011-06-12 03:57:04 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: the second list is ;)
677 2011-06-12 03:57:11 <jgarzik> and no other threads visible on first page
678 2011-06-12 03:57:20 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: well, the major 4 miners, and the 5 largest pools seem to be enough
679 2011-06-12 03:57:26 <genewitch> his spam plan will come to fruition
680 2011-06-12 03:57:27 <Diablo-D3> and its not like I mind a bunch of sticky
681 2011-06-12 03:57:28 <theymos> Exactly what I don't want is a page full of sticky threads. If that many stickies are needed, then there should be a subforum.
682 2011-06-12 03:57:36 <jgarzik> simplecoin, continuuum(sp?), ecocoin, ...
683 2011-06-12 03:57:43 <Diablo-D3> theymos: mining is for mining only
684 2011-06-12 03:57:52 <genewitch> form called "miners" and a forum called "pools"
685 2011-06-12 03:58:01 <genewitch> Mining_Clients
686 2011-06-12 03:58:02 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: eh I dont like that
687 2011-06-12 03:58:06 <genewitch> Mining_Pools
688 2011-06-12 03:58:14 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
689 2011-06-12 03:58:23 <genewitch> well mining pools shouldn't exist
690 2011-06-12 03:58:26 <genewitch> IMO
691 2011-06-12 03:58:37 <Diablo-D3> half a page of stickies for such a complex subject is fine
692 2011-06-12 03:58:40 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
693 2011-06-12 03:58:50 <theymos> It's not fine. It's annoying.
694 2011-06-12 03:58:57 <genewitch> as a forum. for instance my pool is running and works, but it won't pay out shares right now because the DB is broken
695 2011-06-12 03:58:59 <Diablo-D3> theymos: and btw, I dont think mining should have any threads in the mining section
696 2011-06-12 03:59:05 <Diablo-D3> I just cant think of a better solution
697 2011-06-12 03:59:33 <genewitch> Diablo-D3: Client Tweaks/Help
698 2011-06-12 03:59:36 <genewitch> ?
699 2011-06-12 04:00:14 minemoney` has joined
700 2011-06-12 04:00:20 <luke-jr> IMO, there sohuld be a subforum for each pool
701 2011-06-12 04:00:28 <luke-jr> except pools that run their own private forums
702 2011-06-12 04:00:30 <genewitch> luke-jr: they have their own forums though
703 2011-06-12 04:00:30 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: just the interesting pools, and clients
704 2011-06-12 04:00:34 <luke-jr> genewitch: not all
705 2011-06-12 04:00:50 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: yeah, but software should have subforums under development, not mining :p
706 2011-06-12 04:00:52 <genewitch> why should bitcoin.org pay if they don't want to :-P
707 2011-06-12 04:01:03 seeARMS has quit (Quit: Page closed)
708 2011-06-12 04:01:10 <luke-jr> genewitch: the point is to reduce clutter ;)
709 2011-06-12 04:01:26 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: true.
710 2011-06-12 04:01:58 <Diablo-D3> and then basically empty the mining section out by force
711 2011-06-12 04:02:09 <Graet> !seen nanotube
712 2011-06-12 04:02:23 <spq> n8
713 2011-06-12 04:02:36 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: shrug, there's gotta be *some* generic mining stuff ther
714 2011-06-12 04:02:40 <jgarzik> theymos: is there any way to make someone read-only (disable posting)? Atlas isn't too happy about the animated image thing :)
715 2011-06-12 04:02:43 <genewitch> does this channel care about pushpoold? It seems to be broken with mysql, not updating shares/active columns in pool_worker and shares tables. also the hashrate isn't showing up. It's the weekend so responses on the forums are real slow
716 2011-06-12 04:02:54 <jgarzik> genewitch: it works just fine
717 2011-06-12 04:03:02 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yeah but its largely annoying pool/miner specific shit
718 2011-06-12 04:03:25 <jgarzik> theymos: I don't want to ban him, though
719 2011-06-12 04:03:27 <theymos> jgarzik: What animated image thing?
720 2011-06-12 04:03:28 <genewitch> jgarzik: not here, and there's no errors whatsoever :-/ but clients can connect to it, and bitcoind hands out work just fine, and the frontend is assigning passwords and stuff
721 2011-06-12 04:03:35 <jgarzik> theymos: animated image signature
722 2011-06-12 04:03:59 <theymos> Are you deleting all of his posts because he has an animated signature? :(
723 2011-06-12 04:04:03 <Diablo-D3> dude
724 2011-06-12 04:04:07 <Diablo-D3> who the fuck is using an animated sig
725 2011-06-12 04:04:09 <Diablo-D3> ban the fucker
726 2011-06-12 04:04:19 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: I don't want to ban him permanently
727 2011-06-12 04:04:24 <jgarzik> theymos: damn right I am
728 2011-06-12 04:04:33 <luke-jr> â¦â¦â¦â¦.
729 2011-06-12 04:04:33 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: well, give him a warning
730 2011-06-12 04:04:37 <Diablo-D3> be an annoying fucker again
731 2011-06-12 04:04:38 <Diablo-D3> its perm
732 2011-06-12 04:04:42 <genewitch> http://cloudp.ath.cx/stats.php <--- see? Nothin. but bitcoind debug.log and /tmp/shares.log and /tmp/request.log are rolling and working fine
733 2011-06-12 04:04:44 cacheson has joined
734 2011-06-12 04:04:44 <theymos> That's not cool. He has lots of good posts. I'll just remove his signature.
735 2011-06-12 04:04:45 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: already done -- and already ignored
736 2011-06-12 04:04:53 MBS is now known as crash
737 2011-06-12 04:05:02 crash is now known as MBS
738 2011-06-12 04:05:08 <Diablo-D3> infact
739 2011-06-12 04:05:10 <jgarzik> <shrug> he refuses to change his sig. making a personal stand. I presume he will just change his sig back.
740 2011-06-12 04:05:13 <Diablo-D3> images shouldnt be allowed in sigs
741 2011-06-12 04:05:20 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: 1000% agreed
742 2011-06-12 04:05:34 * luke-jr can turn off image autoloading in his browser if he wanted to
743 2011-06-12 04:05:34 <genewitch> what about pool banners that are tiny like bitcoinpool's
744 2011-06-12 04:05:41 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: annoying as fuck
745 2011-06-12 04:05:46 <genewitch> ban gifs!
746 2011-06-12 04:05:53 <luke-jr> genewitch: ban GIF is ok :D
747 2011-06-12 04:06:01 <noagendamarket> look at overclockers for annoying sigs
748 2011-06-12 04:06:02 <genewitch> compuserv royalties, imo
749 2011-06-12 04:06:10 <jgarzik> theymos: whatever makes his sig stop appearing, that's fine
750 2011-06-12 04:06:18 pRjck3vC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
751 2011-06-12 04:06:39 <Diablo-D3> btw, theymos, jgarzik
752 2011-06-12 04:06:39 pRjck3vC has joined
753 2011-06-12 04:06:49 <Diablo-D3> Ive stickied 8 threads
754 2011-06-12 04:06:54 <Diablo-D3> thats about a quarter of the first page
755 2011-06-12 04:07:05 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt even make it to the bottom of the scroll
756 2011-06-12 04:07:19 <Diablo-D3> that SHOULD be enough to cut down on the bullshit threads that people start because they cant find the main one
757 2011-06-12 04:07:27 <genewitch> cloudfront, you guys need cloudfront for the forums
758 2011-06-12 04:07:33 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: fuck that dude
759 2011-06-12 04:07:40 <Diablo-D3> I could make my own fucking forum and cdn at that point
760 2011-06-12 04:07:43 <genewitch> it's so sloooow
761 2011-06-12 04:07:44 <jgarzik> genewitch: cloudfront doesn't keep out the trolls ;)
762 2011-06-12 04:07:58 <genewitch> well, it's almost keeping me out :-/
763 2011-06-12 04:07:59 <theymos> It's really not that slow for me.
764 2011-06-12 04:08:05 <genewitch> and i am a witch not a troll
765 2011-06-12 04:08:11 <theymos> I wonder what's different about my configuration.
766 2011-06-12 04:08:20 <theymos> Is it slow for everyone?
767 2011-06-12 04:08:23 <genewitch> Diablo-D3: conflict of interest your thread is top sticky
768 2011-06-12 04:08:34 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: no, forum lists it by last posted in
769 2011-06-12 04:08:47 <jgarzik> theymos: slow here
770 2011-06-12 04:09:03 <Diablo-D3> genewitch: if I posted in the poclbm thread, it'd go to the top
771 2011-06-12 04:09:16 <genewitch> oh, i thought stickies were stuck in place
772 2011-06-12 04:09:23 <genewitch> brb tracert
773 2011-06-12 04:09:45 <theymos> Is it slower than yesterday? I made some changes recently that should have sped things up significantly.
774 2011-06-12 04:09:56 <Diablo-D3> theymos: its not as shittastic as it was
775 2011-06-12 04:10:25 aaa has joined
776 2011-06-12 04:10:35 aaa has left ()
777 2011-06-12 04:11:15 <nanotube> Graet: ?
778 2011-06-12 04:11:22 <genewitch> dude, rackspace? seriously?
779 2011-06-12 04:12:08 num1-mac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
780 2011-06-12 04:12:51 <theymos> jgarzik is no longer a moderator because I now have to restore like 50 of Atlas's posts...
781 2011-06-12 04:13:45 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
782 2011-06-12 04:14:16 <genewitch> http://pastebin.com/1QTQ7egL traceroutes from CA and VA
783 2011-06-12 04:15:33 <genewitch> But it's just 5 seconds before i even start getting data in Los Angeles, at least.
784 2011-06-12 04:15:59 apsoa has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
785 2011-06-12 04:20:04 Herodes_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
786 2011-06-12 04:21:11 <jgarzik> theymos: <rolls eyes>
787 2011-06-12 04:21:21 <jgarzik> Just confirms that the forum is toast
788 2011-06-12 04:21:29 <Diablo-D3> the forum has too much fucking traffic
789 2011-06-12 04:21:33 <Diablo-D3> but I think I saved the mining forum
790 2011-06-12 04:21:37 <Diablo-D3> er, section
791 2011-06-12 04:21:45 <gmaxwell> :-/
792 2011-06-12 04:21:50 <gmaxwell> The forum is a cesspool.
793 2011-06-12 04:21:51 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: bitcoin-development list was just created @ SF by Gavin
794 2011-06-12 04:21:54 kermit has joined
795 2011-06-12 04:21:56 <jgarzik> devs agree
796 2011-06-12 04:21:57 AStove has joined
797 2011-06-12 04:22:08 <gmaxwell> I don't know what posts that jgarzik moderated, but I find it hard to believe that it wasn't crap.
798 2011-06-12 04:22:09 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: url?
799 2011-06-12 04:22:16 <jgarzik> and it's utterly impossible to show forum to reporters or business professionals
800 2011-06-12 04:22:50 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=244765
801 2011-06-12 04:23:31 <theymos> The forum is more than just Bitcoin development. It is (supposed to be) a good, low-moderation forum for discussion of many topics. Moderation needs to be increased when there is a ton of trolls, however.
802 2011-06-12 04:23:32 <Graet> nanotube was going to ask you about gribble, and my chan #ozcoin is it possible to have gribble join? either answer is fine :)
803 2011-06-12 04:23:44 <gmaxwell> What jgarzik said. I'm embarassed to tell friends about bitcoin for fear that they'll load the forums and find a wall of dickhead blabbering on about black helicopters and prediction markets for killing babies or whatever.
804 2011-06-12 04:24:28 <Diablo-D3> yeah
805 2011-06-12 04:24:34 <jgarzik> discussion among devs + major exchange ops + major pool ops seems to lean towards swapping weusecoins forum with current forum
806 2011-06-12 04:24:45 <jgarzik> and then pushing for "business professional" conduct
807 2011-06-12 04:25:14 <Graet> i like that
808 2011-06-12 04:25:50 <Graet> is there somwhere small/new pool owners can join to observe (apart from in here?)
809 2011-06-12 04:25:58 <gmaxwell> I do too. I'm not really too concerned with people being rude as I am about people being crazy. But asking people to behave professional is probable adequate.
810 2011-06-12 04:26:31 <noagendamarket> jgarzik that sounds like an excellent idea
811 2011-06-12 04:26:36 <genewitch> people who own fast video cards generally aren't professional
812 2011-06-12 04:26:41 <genewitch> i'm just throwing that out there.
813 2011-06-12 04:27:32 <jgarzik> genewitch: and they can stay on the "old" forum after the switch...
814 2011-06-12 04:27:33 wistiu has joined
815 2011-06-12 04:27:38 <jgarzik> genewitch: you're not wrong, though :)
816 2011-06-12 04:27:39 <Graet> gtg boy is hassling
817 2011-06-12 04:27:51 <genewitch> jgarzik: i'm glad.
818 2011-06-12 04:28:13 <theymos> A separate professional forum is fine, but I like the "unprofessional" forum.
819 2011-06-12 04:28:24 <genewitch> So who can help with the pushpoold issue of not updating the tables? can only one instance of a user use the mysql at a time, maybe?
820 2011-06-12 04:28:58 <gmaxwell> genewitch: Even most 14 year olds can behave if required to. I don't see the problem there.
821 2011-06-12 04:29:07 <jgarzik> theymos: it needs to move away from *.bitcoin.org
822 2011-06-12 04:29:19 <noagendamarket> just make the current forum nsfw/unregulated as a section in the new forum
823 2011-06-12 04:29:32 <nanotube> Graet: ok :)
824 2011-06-12 04:29:34 <jgarzik> noagendamarket: no, that just leads downhill quickly
825 2011-06-12 04:29:42 vikarti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
826 2011-06-12 04:29:46 <genewitch> e.g. 4chan
827 2011-06-12 04:29:48 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
828 2011-06-12 04:29:51 <jgarzik> yes
829 2011-06-12 04:29:58 <gmaxwell> theymos: sure, there should be a forum to shitcan the nutbags into so they can talk about buying babymulching with bitcon without bothering everyone else.
830 2011-06-12 04:30:25 <gmaxwell> genewitch: "the letter b means bitcoin, go post over there"
831 2011-06-12 04:30:25 <theymos> I happen to like 4chan...
832 2011-06-12 04:30:33 <Netsniper> you can buy babymulchers with bitcoins?
833 2011-06-12 04:30:37 <Graet> cheers nanotube :)
834 2011-06-12 04:31:00 <nanotube> theymos: what about making a mod queue, assuming we can get enough reasonable people to be mods? before post goes live, has to be approved?
835 2011-06-12 04:31:13 <gmaxwell> Netsniper: dunno but if so you'd expect to learn all about it in graphic detail on the bitcoin forums.
836 2011-06-12 04:31:17 m0m0 has joined
837 2011-06-12 04:31:37 <nanotube> theymos: can mark certain users as perma-ok, so only need to do this on new people. good way to thwart trollwaves?
838 2011-06-12 04:31:54 vikarti has joined
839 2011-06-12 04:31:54 <gmaxwell> nanotube: I think theymos already commented on what he thought about reasonable moderation above when he commented on jgarzik moderating.
840 2011-06-12 04:32:35 <theymos> nanotube: I'd be OK with that (for new users). Maybe only enabled when there are lots of trolls.
841 2011-06-12 04:32:46 <nanotube> theymos: right, a 'panic mode' :)
842 2011-06-12 04:32:52 <theymos> Yes.
843 2011-06-12 04:32:54 <noagendamarket> heh
844 2011-06-12 04:32:57 <nanotube> gmaxwell: :)
845 2011-06-12 04:33:12 <theymos> I increased required time between posts to 5 minutes. I bet that'll help.
846 2011-06-12 04:33:21 BCBot has joined
847 2011-06-12 04:33:31 <nanotube> how hard would it be to implement? does that come built into smf, the mod-queue bits?
848 2011-06-12 04:33:46 <gmaxwell> That will just annoy normal users and the crapflooders who don't know how to select tor exits, no?
849 2011-06-12 04:33:55 <nanotube> Graet: cheers :)
850 2011-06-12 04:34:01 <Graet> :)
851 2011-06-12 04:34:03 <theymos> nanotube: It doesn't come built in.
852 2011-06-12 04:34:11 <nanotube> gmaxwell: based on user accounts, not ips.
853 2011-06-12 04:34:24 <nanotube> gmaxwell: and based on account age
854 2011-06-12 04:34:44 <nanotube> so 'normal users' who are not made-this-week, won't see any changes, ideally.
855 2011-06-12 04:34:47 Ellipsis753 has joined
856 2011-06-12 04:34:48 <theymos> I would totally redesign the forum system if I had time. The current moderation scheme is very bad.
857 2011-06-12 04:35:09 <nanotube> theymos: well, how about phpbb's system? that seems to be the most popular forum sw
858 2011-06-12 04:35:19 <nanotube> though i can't say i have experience with it myself
859 2011-06-12 04:35:23 <theymos> That's just about the same, IIRC.
860 2011-06-12 04:35:28 <jgarzik> [ANN] New bitcoin development mailing list - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15527.0
861 2011-06-12 04:35:31 <nanotube> theymos: iow, also shitty?
862 2011-06-12 04:35:50 <nanotube> jgarzik: who controls who's allowed to post? hope that's moderated.
863 2011-06-12 04:36:22 Ramokk has quit ()
864 2011-06-12 04:36:47 <gmaxwell> nanotube: usually unmoderating new users on the first good post, and then kicking off people who are complete idiots is more than enough.
865 2011-06-12 04:37:04 <gmaxwell> I think most of the problems on the forums are a few jerks plus an overall stupid culture.
866 2011-06-12 04:37:12 <Diablo-D3> theymos: so, lets see if my plan cuts down on the absolute bullshit that is the miner section
867 2011-06-12 04:37:15 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: dude
868 2011-06-12 04:37:18 <Diablo-D3> 90% of people
869 2011-06-12 04:37:20 <Diablo-D3> suck dick
870 2011-06-12 04:37:40 <Diablo-D3> hitler was wrong... why kill jews when you can ground stupid people up for cat food?
871 2011-06-12 04:37:42 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: most people can pretend to be reasonable if they know that its required and expected.
872 2011-06-12 04:37:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: bullshit
873 2011-06-12 04:38:03 <nanotube> gmaxwell: that'd work just as well. as long as there's /some/ barrier to entry, in addition to just creating an account. :)
874 2011-06-12 04:38:06 <Diablo-D3> do I have to go find the commercial from that one movie theatre that bans text messages?
875 2011-06-12 04:38:28 <gmaxwell> I mean, I assume you have a job and suchâ and that you don't act like you do on IRC everywhere elseâ¦
876 2011-06-12 04:38:31 <gmaxwell> ;)
877 2011-06-12 04:39:31 maqr has joined
878 2011-06-12 04:39:35 maqr has quit (Changing host)
879 2011-06-12 04:39:35 maqr has joined
880 2011-06-12 04:39:46 maqr has quit (Client Quit)
881 2011-06-12 04:39:57 <jgarzik> nanotube: unmoderated... we'll see what happens
882 2011-06-12 04:40:03 maqr has joined
883 2011-06-12 04:40:10 <theymos> Anyone want to be a mod for the newbie section? It's going too fast for me to handle.
884 2011-06-12 04:40:18 <jgarzik> nanotube: I doubt 4chan people know what email is ;)
885 2011-06-12 04:40:38 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha they can probably read wikipedia about it and figure it out, given sufficient time, though. :)
886 2011-06-12 04:40:41 <theymos> You know, there are plenty of very good discussions on 4chan outside of /b/...
887 2011-06-12 04:40:45 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: nope, I pretty much wont stand for bullshit anywhere
888 2011-06-12 04:41:19 <nanotube> theymos: what's the newbie section? must be new? :) is it "people with accounts < 1week old can only post here" board? or some such?
889 2011-06-12 04:41:20 <gmaxwell> nanotube: if it gets too bad require new users pay 1btc to the faucet to join. ;)
890 2011-06-12 04:41:21 <genewitch> i may be biased but as i mentioned earlier xkcd forums sort of automod anyone that posts pictures, links, etc in the first 10 posts, and usually require the first post to be in a huge newbie introduction thread.
891 2011-06-12 04:41:35 <genewitch> it's a tiny barrier to entry, that will shuffle out all but the most anal of trolls
892 2011-06-12 04:41:39 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
893 2011-06-12 04:42:02 <gmaxwell> genewitch: barriers to entry usually toss more good users than trolls... you only notice the troll reduction.
894 2011-06-12 04:42:05 <theymos> nanotube: Yes, though it's based on post counts since SMF doesn't support age restrictions (or at least not both age+post, which is necessary).
895 2011-06-12 04:42:08 <nanotube> gmaxwell: haha indeed, that'd be cool.
896 2011-06-12 04:42:09 minemoney` has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
897 2011-06-12 04:42:47 <nanotube> theymos: ah i see. well, the ability to pump up post count by spamming the newbie section seems... counterproductive. :)
898 2011-06-12 04:42:51 <gmaxwell> genewitch: a troll is trying to cause trouble and is burning effort to do it. A good person is probably instead trying to do _you_ a favor. Making it cost more to do you good isn't a good tradeoff.
899 2011-06-12 04:43:01 <theymos> nanotube: That's why mods are needed.
900 2011-06-12 04:43:23 <nanotube> so is that section auto-moderated? i.e., post doesn't make it through before mod lets it?
901 2011-06-12 04:43:26 <genewitch> i would mod if i had time
902 2011-06-12 04:43:36 <theymos> nanotube: Nope, SMF doesn't support that, either.
903 2011-06-12 04:44:02 muffinz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
904 2011-06-12 04:44:04 <noagendamarket> why dont we have a "get satisfaction" for bitcoin ?
905 2011-06-12 04:44:25 <noagendamarket> there is no way to get customer service other than post in the cesspool
906 2011-06-12 04:44:33 Taveren93HGK has joined
907 2011-06-12 04:44:35 QDef is now known as Sleep!~QDef@f148064.upc-f.chello.nl|QDef
908 2011-06-12 04:44:47 <genewitch> yeah the barrier to entry for bitcoin is pretty high
909 2011-06-12 04:45:20 <genewitch> i looked at a couple of sites months ago and tried running bitcoind on my server, but nothing happened so i just got bored and moved on.
910 2011-06-12 04:45:28 <noagendamarket> we dont need a new forum we need a customer service site
911 2011-06-12 04:45:44 <genewitch> there's a wiki!
912 2011-06-12 04:45:50 <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: sounds like someone should make a "yahoo answers for bitcoin" with the ability to setup seperate moderated sections.
913 2011-06-12 04:46:20 <noagendamarket> http://getsatisfaction.com/
914 2011-06-12 04:46:31 <genewitch> oh man i do not like that site
915 2011-06-12 04:46:51 <genewitch> minecraft uses it and the people there are more jerky than #ubuntu
916 2011-06-12 04:46:52 <noagendamarket> there is a stack exchange site in the works apparently
917 2011-06-12 04:47:55 <Graet> heh lots of ppl see exchange sites as easy money. be interesting how many eventuate ;)
918 2011-06-12 04:48:00 <jgarzik> [ANN] Bitcoin v0.3.23 release candidate available - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15533.0
919 2011-06-12 04:48:26 Ramokk has joined
920 2011-06-12 04:50:46 <noagendamarket> jgarzik does that include the cia back door ?
921 2011-06-12 04:50:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the commnts on fees will create confusion ::shrugs::
922 2011-06-12 04:50:54 <noagendamarket> :)
923 2011-06-12 04:51:09 n0n0 has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
924 2011-06-12 04:51:25 <gmaxwell> e.g. people will continue to tell people to run .19 because it has no fees. citing "Client will relay transactions with fees as low as 0.0001 BTC"
925 2011-06-12 04:52:21 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
926 2011-06-12 04:52:49 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
927 2011-06-12 04:52:52 <Ellipsis753> Hey, I was wondering if someone here could help me out. I know very little about cryptography and am trying to learn more. I was wondering about ways it could be implemented peer-to-peer. I came up with a simple way and can't work out why it's wrong. I'm sure it must be but I'm not sure why it is. Basically can someone please let me try explain it to them and then tell me why it's wrong? : P I know this really
928 2011-06-12 04:52:52 <Ellipsis753> probably isn't most peoples cup of tea.
929 2011-06-12 04:53:05 fpgaminer has quit ()
930 2011-06-12 04:53:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: wording suggestions welcome. too many people mistakenly believe that 0.01 fee is required
931 2011-06-12 04:54:12 sfsadfds has joined
932 2011-06-12 04:54:51 <genewitch> jgarzik: is there a changelog from the tarball on the forums and the git repo?
933 2011-06-12 04:54:56 sfsadfds has quit (Client Quit)
934 2011-06-12 04:55:13 <genewitch> i don't get git, hrr
935 2011-06-12 04:55:41 tauri has joined
936 2011-06-12 04:56:11 <gmaxwell> Transaction fee-minimum reduced to 0.0005 for low priority transactions, normal transactions remain free
937 2011-06-12 04:56:13 <genewitch> i notice there's db-mysql diagnostics somewhere, but i don't get how to turn them on
938 2011-06-12 04:56:15 <gmaxwell> Relay fee-minimum for low priority transactions reduced to 0.0001, normal transactions remain relayed without fee.
939 2011-06-12 04:56:21 <gmaxwell> ... dunno if thats an improvment. It's tricky.
940 2011-06-12 04:56:35 <genewitch> gmaxwell: 0.05BTC costs 0.0005 to send.
941 2011-06-12 04:56:35 <gmaxwell> It would also be helpful that when you generate a low prio txn if the client told you _why_.
942 2011-06-12 04:56:43 <gmaxwell> genewitch: it does not.
943 2011-06-12 04:56:52 <genewitch> gmaxwell: you can now choose 0.001 instead of 0.01
944 2011-06-12 04:56:55 <genewitch> no?
945 2011-06-12 04:56:55 <gmaxwell> genewitch: No.
946 2011-06-12 04:56:56 <jgarzik> genewitch: ?
947 2011-06-12 04:57:02 <jgarzik> genewitch: I posted the changelog in the announcement
948 2011-06-12 04:57:15 <gmaxwell> and it was misunderstood, as I said it would be. :)
949 2011-06-12 04:57:21 <genewitch> jgarzik: i'm using the git repo because i cannot for the life of me figure out why it's not updating the database
950 2011-06-12 04:57:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: updated post. better?
951 2011-06-12 04:57:33 <jgarzik> genewitch: see git documentation
952 2011-06-12 04:58:09 vikarti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
953 2011-06-12 04:58:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik, yes, though I'd go a bit further and say "low priority" in the first two lines, because they do sound like they cover everything.
954 2011-06-12 04:58:13 <genewitch> for using git or the documentation on git for pushpoold?
955 2011-06-12 04:58:40 <genewitch> i compiled the git version, i am about to see if it works
956 2011-06-12 04:58:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it's not just for low priority TX's... fees raise priority above normal priority, as well
957 2011-06-12 04:59:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea... ugh. I know this, but explaining it requires a freeking whiteboard.
958 2011-06-12 04:59:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: indeed :/
959 2011-06-12 04:59:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: people mostly care about what is forced, now what threshold boosts priority.
960 2011-06-12 05:00:10 <gmaxwell> s/now/not/ oh well. bedtime.
961 2011-06-12 05:01:10 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: If you can't laugh at yourself, make fun of other people.)
962 2011-06-12 05:01:34 alystair has joined
963 2011-06-12 05:02:27 <genewitch> jgarzik: http://pastebin.com/vAwGqU5u this is what is happening, everything is working except db backend I'd love to fix it but what code should i look in, db-mysql.c or server.c or what?
964 2011-06-12 05:03:02 <jgarzik> genewitch: mysql works great for plenty of people
965 2011-06-12 05:03:17 tauri has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
966 2011-06-12 05:03:19 <genewitch> 1938 shares.log <--wc -l
967 2011-06-12 05:03:35 <jgarzik> genewitch: there is a problem with your db or schema or somesuch, locally
968 2011-06-12 05:04:10 <genewitch> why isn't pushpoold complaining somewhere? it's like it's not even erroring out when it trys to run "UPDATE" query
969 2011-06-12 05:04:34 <genewitch> it can read the DB it's just not bothering to update anything
970 2011-06-12 05:04:52 Chopes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
971 2011-06-12 05:05:28 vikarti has joined
972 2011-06-12 05:05:52 zyb has joined
973 2011-06-12 05:06:36 <jgarzik> genewitch: look in syslog for any output
974 2011-06-12 05:06:40 <genewitch> jgarzik: i'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but i've dumped 14 hours into trying to get this to work. it wouldn't even compile on gentoo.
975 2011-06-12 05:06:47 <jgarzik> genewitch: and crank up debugging
976 2011-06-12 05:06:58 Chopes has joined
977 2011-06-12 05:06:59 <jgarzik> genewitch: luke-jr uses it on gentoo, IIRC, to run a major pool
978 2011-06-12 05:07:11 <genewitch> i run -D 2
979 2011-06-12 05:07:26 <luke-jr> genewitch: emerge =pushpool-9999
980 2011-06-12 05:07:49 <genewitch> luke-jr: not on gentoo with this one
981 2011-06-12 05:07:53 <genewitch> i switched to ubuntu
982 2011-06-12 05:07:56 <luke-jr> fail
983 2011-06-12 05:08:12 <genewitch> hey i posted the problem in the forum yesterday
984 2011-06-12 05:08:17 <jgarzik> luke-jr: speaking of... my scrollback lost your git url. can you repost to me, please?
985 2011-06-12 05:08:24 <genewitch> i was getting a socket address cannot use this protocol error on gentoo
986 2011-06-12 05:08:32 <genewitch> every time pushpoold tried to start
987 2011-06-12 05:08:33 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool.git
988 2011-06-12 05:08:50 <genewitch> what is special about that?
989 2011-06-12 05:08:55 sacarlson has joined
990 2011-06-12 05:09:09 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd pushpool]$ git pull git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool.git master
991 2011-06-12 05:09:09 <jgarzik> fatal: Couldn't find remote ref master
992 2011-06-12 05:09:11 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ^^
993 2011-06-12 05:09:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it's called "personal"
994 2011-06-12 05:10:13 <genewitch> as you can see, work is being done, no errors are being output, and the database is not getting updated http://pastebin.com/WYLNSkf5
995 2011-06-12 05:10:34 Clarence has joined
996 2011-06-12 05:10:52 <jgarzik> genewitch: did you turn on share logging in the config?
997 2011-06-12 05:11:24 <jgarzik> genewitch: sharelog:true
998 2011-06-12 05:11:31 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
999 2011-06-12 05:11:32 <genewitch> yes, hence the tail /tmp/shares.log
1000 2011-06-12 05:11:50 <genewitch> oh, no that's not in the example config
1001 2011-06-12 05:11:54 <jgarzik> genewitch: file != db
1002 2011-06-12 05:12:46 <genewitch> is there a list of everything i can put in the server.json somewhere?
1003 2011-06-12 05:14:49 <jgarzik> "The last posting from your IP was less than 300 seconds ago. Please try again later."
1004 2011-06-12 05:14:57 <jgarzik> for a PM. fscking unbelieveable.
1005 2011-06-12 05:15:11 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd917fe3c435b pushpool/Makefile.am: Bugfix: libraries must be in LDADD, not LDFLAGS http://tinyurl.com/3rdzewj
1006 2011-06-12 05:15:33 <theymos> I would apply that restriction only to new accounts if SMF supported it.
1007 2011-06-12 05:15:35 spirals has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1008 2011-06-12 05:16:46 <genewitch> 300 seconds?
1009 2011-06-12 05:17:00 <genewitch> 15 is a lot more sane
1010 2011-06-12 05:17:17 <genewitch> that's 4 spams per minute at full tilt, more than enough time to nip it in the bud
1011 2011-06-12 05:18:15 <genewitch> "sharelog" : true is set now, how long do i have to wait for db updates?
1012 2011-06-12 05:18:22 <genewitch> does that have to be in the db part?
1013 2011-06-12 05:18:49 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1014 2011-06-12 05:20:43 pogden has joined
1015 2011-06-12 05:22:36 jmpespxoreax has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1016 2011-06-12 05:23:20 whackedspinach has joined
1017 2011-06-12 05:23:23 kreal- has joined
1018 2011-06-12 05:24:10 <genewitch> yeah, i enabled that, it's still not updating the DB, but shares are still rolling in on the pool. I am going to try moving sharelog : true into the database section.
1019 2011-06-12 05:26:53 discHead has quit (Quit:)
1020 2011-06-12 05:27:58 <genewitch> does this look like a normal -D 2 -F output http://pastebin.com/8b0rS9qy or is it missing something?
1021 2011-06-12 05:28:20 <genewitch> luke-jr: ^ if you would be so kind as to let me know if that looks right
1022 2011-06-12 05:31:33 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1028 2011-06-12 05:35:50 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1030 2011-06-12 05:38:24 chaord has left ()
1031 2011-06-12 05:38:37 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
1032 2011-06-12 05:38:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130208 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 831 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 20 hours, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 817583.78548642
1033 2011-06-12 05:42:32 <Joric> http://www.uploadscreenshot.com/image/352880/7556996
1034 2011-06-12 05:43:23 <Joric> classic!
1035 2011-06-12 05:43:58 <noagendamarket> haha
1036 2011-06-12 05:45:24 <mtrlt> :D
1037 2011-06-12 05:48:09 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
1038 2011-06-12 05:48:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130210 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 829 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 20 hours, 20 minutes, and 29 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 817110.46282334
1039 2011-06-12 05:52:24 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1040 2011-06-12 05:53:03 unclemantis has joined
1041 2011-06-12 05:56:43 DavidSJ has joined
1042 2011-06-12 05:57:31 <genewitch> jgarzik: i added applog(LOG_ERR, "mysql command is %s", stmt); at line 170 and suddenly everything is working. WTF. Over.
1043 2011-06-12 05:57:41 <genewitch> in db-mysql.c
1044 2011-06-12 05:57:44 <genewitch> that's all i changed.
1045 2011-06-12 06:01:06 <genewitch> i really don't get it. Problem solved. I changed it back to spare my syslogger and it's working fine now.
1046 2011-06-12 06:03:19 <lorph> is it possible to setup a test network myself so I can test my pool software
1047 2011-06-12 06:03:25 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
1048 2011-06-12 06:03:51 <alystair> lorph: secondary test area no good?
1049 2011-06-12 06:03:53 <Raccoon> are there any 'block explorer' programs one can run locally?
1050 2011-06-12 06:03:57 <Raccoon> windows or linux
1051 2011-06-12 06:04:18 <lorph> alystair: how long does it take to generate a block on testnet?
1052 2011-06-12 06:04:28 <Raccoon> would be neat to examine the history of the coins in your wallet
1053 2011-06-12 06:04:29 <alystair> no idea.
1054 2011-06-12 06:04:34 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
1055 2011-06-12 06:04:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130211 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 828 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 20 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 817322.44845529
1056 2011-06-12 06:04:43 <Raccoon> explore a 2d network graph
1057 2011-06-12 06:04:47 <muffinz> so difficulty is going up by 47%?
1058 2011-06-12 06:04:58 <Raccoon> muffinz: that's not bad.
1059 2011-06-12 06:05:09 <Raccoon> could be 300% i understand
1060 2011-06-12 06:05:25 <muffinz> how does the difficulty estimate work?
1061 2011-06-12 06:05:25 <genewitch> no, down
1062 2011-06-12 06:05:31 <genewitch> higher number = easier
1063 2011-06-12 06:05:50 <Raccoon> he didn't say number, he said difficulty
1064 2011-06-12 06:06:06 <genewitch> the estimate, and i was talking to muffinz
1065 2011-06-12 06:06:22 <Raccoon> lower difficulty factor, higher difficulty
1066 2011-06-12 06:06:51 <genewitch> are you disagreeing or agreeing with what i said
1067 2011-06-12 06:07:00 <ArtForz> yes
1068 2011-06-12 06:07:07 <muffinz> Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 -- Next Difficulty Estimate: 817322.44845529
1069 2011-06-12 06:07:16 <ArtForz> don't mix up difficulty with target
1070 2011-06-12 06:07:24 <ArtForz> higher difficulty = harder
1071 2011-06-12 06:07:27 <genewitch> no
1072 2011-06-12 06:07:33 <ArtForz> YES
1073 2011-06-12 06:07:35 <Raccoon> Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067
1074 2011-06-12 06:07:35 <Raccoon> Next Difficulty Estimate: 817322.44845529
1075 2011-06-12 06:07:42 <Raccoon> are you saying it will get harder or easier
1076 2011-06-12 06:07:44 <genewitch> i thought 1 was the hardest difficulty
1077 2011-06-12 06:07:50 <genewitch> is what i am saying
1078 2011-06-12 06:07:50 <ArtForz> higher difficulty = lower target = harder, I am pretty sure I know this shit by heart
1079 2011-06-12 06:07:51 <mtrlt> if something gets more difficult, it does not get easier
1080 2011-06-12 06:07:55 <mtrlt> it gets more difficult
1081 2011-06-12 06:07:59 <ArtForz> 1 is easierst possible
1082 2011-06-12 06:08:13 <genewitch> because if you punch that into the bitcoin calc it says 330mh/s nets you 73,000 USD a day
1083 2011-06-12 06:08:18 <genewitch> oh
1084 2011-06-12 06:08:24 <ArtForz> which is about 1 in 2**32 tries yielding a valid blocks
1085 2011-06-12 06:08:24 <genewitch> that makes sense, i'm just stupid
1086 2011-06-12 06:08:25 <ArtForz> -s
1087 2011-06-12 06:08:33 <genewitch> i'm really burned, guys
1088 2011-06-12 06:08:42 <genewitch> sorry. i finally got my pool working though, so YAY
1089 2011-06-12 06:08:46 <ArtForz> difficulty 100 means ... about 1 in 2**32 * 100 tries gets a block
1090 2011-06-12 06:08:49 m0m0 has left ()
1091 2011-06-12 06:08:50 <ArtForz> etc.
1092 2011-06-12 06:09:04 <genewitch> yes yes i misread something 3 days ago :-)
1093 2011-06-12 06:09:19 <ArtForz> diff 1 is not exactly 1 in 2**32, but close enough for normal purposes
1094 2011-06-12 06:09:21 <genewitch> it's $73,000 per day if difficulty is 1 because you can mine so many blocks
1095 2011-06-12 06:09:35 <ArtForz> yep
1096 2011-06-12 06:10:14 <genewitch> so harder means less mh/s and therefore less btc overall, but btc should be worth more? because the supply goes down
1097 2011-06-12 06:10:25 <ArtForz> err... no
1098 2011-06-12 06:10:37 <ArtForz> higher diff at same mh/s = less btc generated
1099 2011-06-12 06:10:40 <genewitch> same mh/s?
1100 2011-06-12 06:10:51 <ArtForz> but to *get* higher diff, total mh/s has to rise
1101 2011-06-12 06:10:56 <genewitch> yeah
1102 2011-06-12 06:11:22 <genewitch> however the falloff in price would suggest that less mining is going to happen (since demand is low) so the difficulty should get lower, no?
1103 2011-06-12 06:11:32 <ArtForz> in theory, yes
1104 2011-06-12 06:11:34 <genewitch> it's going up because of the crazy spike a few days ago
1105 2011-06-12 06:11:44 <ArtForz> in practice, mining is still profitable as hell, so... no.
1106 2011-06-12 06:11:57 <genewitch> yeah, don't i know it.
1107 2011-06-12 06:12:13 <genewitch> as long as the price stablizes i should make the same $ per hour regardless of the difficulty
1108 2011-06-12 06:12:23 <genewitch> That's the way i've looked at it, correct me if i am wrong
1109 2011-06-12 06:12:31 <ArtForz> really long term... yes
1110 2011-06-12 06:12:39 <genewitch> good, so i am not as stupid as i type
1111 2011-06-12 06:13:07 <muffinz> well
1112 2011-06-12 06:13:19 <muffinz> as difficulty increases, you will need the price to increase to maintani the same yield
1113 2011-06-12 06:13:41 <ArtForz> yep
1114 2011-06-12 06:13:43 <muffinz> if the price remains at $10, and difficulty increases by 25% each time.. you'll eventually lose money
1115 2011-06-12 06:13:55 <ArtForz> recent price/diff was rather... unusual
1116 2011-06-12 06:14:01 <ArtForz> muffinz: in theory, yes
1117 2011-06-12 06:14:12 <ArtForz> in practice, that means there has to be lots of people with free power
1118 2011-06-12 06:14:13 <mtrlt> but the diff can't keep going up because no-one's gonna add mining power if it makes them lose more money
1119 2011-06-12 06:14:20 <ArtForz> yep
1120 2011-06-12 06:14:22 <genewitch> i just snapshot the pool server and i am going to reload it on smaller hardware.
1121 2011-06-12 06:14:34 <genewitch> no sense paying 50 times what i need to for the 12 people that are going to use it
1122 2011-06-12 06:15:03 <genewitch> where did that difficulty estimate come from, is there software that does that?
1123 2011-06-12 06:15:25 <genewitch> like where's gribble's code getting it from
1124 2011-06-12 06:15:35 <Namegduf> I don't think it's that complex.
1125 2011-06-12 06:15:48 <genewitch> it's in the spec?
1126 2011-06-12 06:15:50 <genewitch> :-D
1127 2011-06-12 06:15:59 <Namegduf> Difficulty adjustments are
1128 2011-06-12 06:17:48 <muffinz> the amont of people mining has soared in the last few days... i suspect the difficulty estimate extrapolates that going forward, which it likely shouldn't..
1129 2011-06-12 06:20:00 <genewitch> 87918TFLOP/s is the highest i've seen
1130 2011-06-12 06:20:17 <genewitch> it was at 84k a few days ago, and 79k last night
1131 2011-06-12 06:20:53 <muffinz> so the expected new difficulty is lower today than it was a few days ago?
1132 2011-06-12 06:22:11 <jgarzik> ArtForz: did you give up on ASIC completely?
1133 2011-06-12 06:22:28 <ArtForz> jgarzik: sASIC... yup
1134 2011-06-12 06:22:55 <ArtForz> price/perf and power/perf is not enough above FPGA to make it interesting
1135 2011-06-12 06:23:42 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
1136 2011-06-12 06:23:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130214 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 825 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 19 hours, 53 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 816608.57458616
1137 2011-06-12 06:23:48 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
1138 2011-06-12 06:23:48 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":23.99,"low":10.5,"vol":155879,"buy":10.5,"sell":10.54,"last":10.5}}
1139 2011-06-12 06:23:55 <gjs278> lol
1140 2011-06-12 06:24:29 combo has joined
1141 2011-06-12 06:25:49 <genewitch> ArtForz: you do fpga stuff?
1142 2011-06-12 06:26:05 <ArtForz> yep
1143 2011-06-12 06:26:07 muffinz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1144 2011-06-12 06:26:33 <genewitch> ArtForz: i was really into evolutionary fpga stuff a few months back, pretty awesome. i've been looking for a good book on programming verilog/vhdl, got any recommendations?
1145 2011-06-12 06:31:29 <gjs278> the internet
1146 2011-06-12 06:32:00 pyros1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1149 2011-06-12 06:34:58 <genewitch> should i write a guide to getting pushpoold set up?
1150 2011-06-12 06:35:26 <quellhorst> genewitch: yes
1151 2011-06-12 06:35:42 <genewitch> gjs278: the internet is a terrible place to learn the really specific languages. For example, i submit Logo. Good luck finding out how to program Logo from the internet.
1152 2011-06-12 06:35:44 <quellhorst> how do you list bc commands?
1153 2011-06-12 06:35:49 <quellhorst> or gribble commands i mean
1154 2011-06-12 06:35:52 <gjs278> logo doesn't work
1155 2011-06-12 06:35:56 <gjs278> because the word is too common to google
1156 2011-06-12 06:36:10 <gjs278> same with "go"
1157 2011-06-12 06:36:13 <genewitch> Ok, fine. Eisel.
1158 2011-06-12 06:36:16 <gjs278> ;;bc,help
1159 2011-06-12 06:36:16 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,interval, (1 more message)
1160 2011-06-12 06:36:23 <gjs278> quellhorst there you go
1161 2011-06-12 06:36:41 <genewitch> can you whisper him?
1162 2011-06-12 06:36:43 plutonic has joined
1163 2011-06-12 06:36:56 <gjs278> sure
1164 2011-06-12 06:37:04 <jgarzik> interesting
1165 2011-06-12 06:37:28 <jgarzik> now helpful posts describing why the bitcoin network is slow (incl. workarounds) are being deleted from the forum
1166 2011-06-12 06:37:45 <gjs278> anticensorship unless you h8 bitcoins
1167 2011-06-12 06:38:33 <quellhorst> thanks
1168 2011-06-12 06:38:39 <quellhorst> ^^ gjs278
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1170 2011-06-12 06:43:35 <ArtForz> jgarzik: the one in general?
1171 2011-06-12 06:43:51 <genewitch> jgarzik: your posts?
1172 2011-06-12 06:44:05 <gjs278> I doubt any mod would delte his posts
1173 2011-06-12 06:44:10 <noagendamarket> jgarzik who is doing that ?
1174 2011-06-12 06:44:23 <genewitch> jgarzik: and isn't the backbone of the bitcoin thing IRC? maybe there was a netsplit :-)
1175 2011-06-12 06:44:25 <gjs278> whoever is an admin can view the logs
1176 2011-06-12 06:44:35 <gjs278> of the admin panel for the forums
1177 2011-06-12 06:44:41 <gjs278> so find one of them and we'll know
1178 2011-06-12 06:45:32 <genewitch> jgarzik: on a related topic to earlier do you mind if i write a guide to getting pushpoold working for people who just want to play with it?
1179 2011-06-12 06:45:33 <jgarzik> ArtForz: no, a post in Newbies
1180 2011-06-12 06:45:36 <jgarzik> genewitch: yes
1181 2011-06-12 06:45:38 <jgarzik> noagendamarket: dunno
1182 2011-06-12 06:45:59 <ArtForz> huh, thats weird
1183 2011-06-12 06:46:07 <gjs278> you mind that he writes the guide
1184 2011-06-12 06:46:10 <genewitch> gjs278: see, his posts. i think. and he's lagging.
1185 2011-06-12 06:46:23 <genewitch> no, i think he's lagging.
1186 2011-06-12 06:46:30 <gjs278> he's in a blackhole
1187 2011-06-12 06:46:34 <jgarzik> ArtForz: not so weird, perhaps. I zapped some of Atlas's posts, and then theymos dropped me as mod, and made Atlas a mod.
1188 2011-06-12 06:46:37 <gjs278> currently time is going slower
1189 2011-06-12 06:46:39 <jgarzik> wiki edit wars, revisited
1190 2011-06-12 06:46:46 <ArtForz> aargh
1191 2011-06-12 06:46:56 <gjs278> how could they demod the man doing cbs interviews
1192 2011-06-12 06:47:00 <genewitch> gjs278: put the pipe down
1193 2011-06-12 06:47:11 <genewitch> gjs278: politics
1194 2011-06-12 06:47:15 <genewitch> and animated gifs
1195 2011-06-12 06:47:16 <ArtForz> I *hate* forum politics
1196 2011-06-12 06:47:18 <genewitch> story at 9
1197 2011-06-12 06:47:23 <gjs278> do a forum takeover
1198 2011-06-12 06:47:24 <noagendamarket> heh well that explains it jgarzik
1199 2011-06-12 06:47:30 <jgarzik> yep
1200 2011-06-12 06:47:40 <noagendamarket> the anarchists have taken over :)
1201 2011-06-12 06:47:42 <jgarzik> I don't fight wars anymore. I just move on...
1202 2011-06-12 06:47:47 <jgarzik> life's too short
1203 2011-06-12 06:48:03 <jgarzik> yet another reason why bitcoin-development list was created
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1210 2011-06-12 06:58:54 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
1211 2011-06-12 06:58:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130221 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 818 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 817553.99678330
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1218 2011-06-12 07:04:33 <dirtyfilthy> i wonder if the problems with bitcoins stability are inevitable, and if so an inevitable effect of markets or of the protocol itself.
1219 2011-06-12 07:05:06 <dirtyfilthy> or just it's embryionic stage of developemnt
1220 2011-06-12 07:05:48 <Optimo> I see into the deep future that things will get more stable as more computer-driven trading and algo is introduced and everything is tuned to minimize fees
1221 2011-06-12 07:06:10 <Optimo> like if the protocol could run for infinity it would be very stable..
1222 2011-06-12 07:06:33 <genewitch> Optimo: like the way the stockmarket is run? options to predict volume moves and the day traders paying the bulk of transactional fees?
1223 2011-06-12 07:06:40 <dirtyfilthy> i'm not sure algo trading adds to stability
1224 2011-06-12 07:06:55 <Optimo> wayyy in the future
1225 2011-06-12 07:07:08 <Optimo> when margins are slim and volume is unimaginably higher
1226 2011-06-12 07:08:07 <Optimo> or when 1btc==100,000 usd. a several points drop is small change inside the bitcoin economy
1227 2011-06-12 07:08:20 <dirtyfilthy> i kinda think this is the inevitable effect of people having large numbers of bitcoins they got for practically nothing and being able to make mad profits at pretty much any price
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1229 2011-06-12 07:09:43 <Optimo> if you look at the trendline from 2 months ago ... it will probably look more like that gradual trend. this big correction today brings the mean wayy back down to look like the old movement
1230 2011-06-12 07:10:09 <Optimo> the true trend is no bubble
1231 2011-06-12 07:10:53 <ArtForz> so if it drops below, that's no true scotsm... trend! ;)
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1236 2011-06-12 07:13:26 <Graet> he guys, been searching round looking /asking. is there a upto date comprehensive list of active pools. the list i find are either incomplete or surprise me that there arent more pools
1237 2011-06-12 07:13:44 <gmaxwell> 23:46 < jgarzik> ArtForz: not so weird, perhaps. I zapped some of Atlas's posts, and then theymos dropped me as mod, and made Atlas a mod.
1238 2011-06-12 07:13:47 <gmaxwell> wow.
1239 2011-06-12 07:14:33 <ArtForz> gmaxwell: and you thought only WP had preschool level politics, eh? ;)
1240 2011-06-12 07:14:34 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1241 2011-06-12 07:14:37 <gmaxwell> thats pretty ... well consistent with the overallâ lack of good judgement shown by the forum community as a whole.
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1243 2011-06-12 07:15:05 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rf71f9a809f9b supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpgauth-colloquy.applescript: GPG: add credit to gpg auth colloquy script. http://tinyurl.com/6beu6n4
1244 2011-06-12 07:15:33 <gmaxwell> ArtForz: usually thats tactful enough to conceal the overt retaliation. Oh well.
1245 2011-06-12 07:16:16 Clarence has quit ()
1246 2011-06-12 07:17:17 <wumpus> jgarzik: maybe remove the link to the forum from the bitcon.org site
1247 2011-06-12 07:17:46 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1248 2011-06-12 07:18:18 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I make that typo to, its quite unfortunate.
1249 2011-06-12 07:18:58 <gmaxwell> There is a lot of good information in the forums which needs to get migrated to a better venue. The wiki would be obviousâ if its not going to suffer the same fate.
1250 2011-06-12 07:19:23 <wumpus> the problem is that it is growing way faster than it can handle
1251 2011-06-12 07:20:07 <wumpus> wiki would suffer the same fate, you'd need some very active moderators like wikipedia otherwise it'll be trolltown very quickly
1252 2011-06-12 07:20:42 <ArtForz> and then you're back in mod kindergarten
1253 2011-06-12 07:20:53 llama has joined
1254 2011-06-12 07:21:12 <wumpus> yes
1255 2011-06-12 07:22:55 <gmaxwell> wumpus: most of the useful stuff doesn't need public editing in any case, it just need reasonable curation.
1256 2011-06-12 07:23:05 Klash_ has joined
1257 2011-06-12 07:24:49 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's the time to separate 'bitcoin the open source project' and 'bitcoin the block chain'
1258 2011-06-12 07:25:25 <wumpus> gmaxwell: we've done that here on irc and it works pretty well
1259 2011-06-12 07:25:30 Kurtov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1260 2011-06-12 07:25:37 <ArtForz> yep
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1265 2011-06-12 07:37:08 <genewitch> hey what up with not being able to use the bitcoin logo?
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1269 2011-06-12 07:44:18 <lumos> genewitch, what do you mean
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1306 2011-06-12 07:57:13 <midnightmagic> artfor
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1308 2011-06-12 07:57:26 <midnightmagic> woops.. sorry, wrong window..
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1312 2011-06-12 07:59:31 <quellhorst> anyone notice the mtgox api not working for getting account balances?
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1315 2011-06-12 08:00:46 <genewitch> i wanted the bitcoin word and font on another site
1316 2011-06-12 08:00:56 <genewitch> but it's not downloadable
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1362 2011-06-12 09:17:39 <netxshare> wow we got sticky posts!
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1392 2011-06-12 10:08:56 yellowhat has joined
1393 2011-06-12 10:09:12 <yellowhat> is anyone working on bitcoinj here?
1394 2011-06-12 10:10:17 <gjs278> [Tycho] I'm getting rpc errord
1395 2011-06-12 10:10:18 <yellowhat> i am working on a different bitcoin-related android program and would like to know if there is any way of listing the user's incoming addresses so i can send him BTC
1396 2011-06-12 10:10:25 eps has joined
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1401 2011-06-12 10:12:16 <yellowhat> also, is there a sample code how to verify a bitcoin address if it is syntactically correct
1402 2011-06-12 10:12:49 <mtrlt> at least in the bitcoin sources :p
1403 2011-06-12 10:12:57 <mtrlt> delve into them
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1407 2011-06-12 10:14:10 <yellowhat> well, guess what
1408 2011-06-12 10:14:13 <yellowhat> i already did that
1409 2011-06-12 10:14:29 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit [Tycho]
1410 2011-06-12 10:14:47 <yellowhat> using bitcoinj source - but i was able to verify (i think so) invalid addresses
1411 2011-06-12 10:15:33 <yellowhat> for example every address i have seen starts with 1 - but the code also accepts otherwise, if the checksum is correct.
1412 2011-06-12 10:16:44 <gjs278> yes
1413 2011-06-12 10:16:48 <gjs278> goddamnit Tycho is correct
1414 2011-06-12 10:16:52 <gjs278> for now
1415 2011-06-12 10:17:02 <gjs278> I have flipping pools
1416 2011-06-12 10:17:04 <gjs278> hate
1417 2011-06-12 10:17:46 eps has joined
1418 2011-06-12 10:17:57 <wumpus> yellowhat: you can't do any checking beyond the checksum
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1420 2011-06-12 10:18:13 <wumpus> yellowhat: there is no way to determine that an address actually exists
1421 2011-06-12 10:18:17 <gmaxwell> wumpus: and version.
1422 2011-06-12 10:18:22 <wumpus> right
1423 2011-06-12 10:18:23 eps has joined
1424 2011-06-12 10:18:30 <yellowhat> yes, i just want to check for its syntactical correctness
1425 2011-06-12 10:18:32 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1426 2011-06-12 10:18:33 <wumpus> you can distinguish testnet and main chain
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1428 2011-06-12 10:20:23 <yellowhat> so why do all addresses start with 1 ? because they are from production? and how do test addresses look like?
1429 2011-06-12 10:20:35 <mtrlt> if the address is valid, the address exists. whether anyone has the private key needed to spend the funds in that address, is another story :-)
1430 2011-06-12 10:20:54 <mtrlt> yellowhat: because the first byte of the address is version which is 1
1431 2011-06-12 10:20:58 <mtrlt> or 0
1432 2011-06-12 10:21:00 <mtrlt> don't remember :p
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1436 2011-06-12 10:21:46 <yellowhat> afk for 30 minutes
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1438 2011-06-12 10:28:19 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: it's probably the case that not all ripemd160 outputs are reachable.
1439 2011-06-12 10:28:34 <mtrlt> gmaxwell: sure?
1440 2011-06-12 10:28:44 somebody__ has joined
1441 2011-06-12 10:28:48 <mtrlt> i mean, the input is 256 bits :p
1442 2011-06-12 10:29:16 <mtrlt> ripemd-160 would have to be badly designed or something.
1443 2011-06-12 10:29:51 <gmaxwell> Nah. 'narrow' hash functions are generally expected to have unreachable outputs, they just aren't known.
1444 2011-06-12 10:30:29 <gmaxwell> If the internal state is much bigger than the output then it's less likely. But when they are the same size any information loss or collissions internally result in unreachable codes.
1445 2011-06-12 10:30:44 <mtrlt> hmm, true
1446 2011-06-12 10:31:15 <mtrlt> wouldn't the same apply to SHA-256 then too? or how is the internal state calculated :p
1447 2011-06-12 10:31:20 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1448 2011-06-12 10:31:27 <mtrlt> ok
1449 2011-06-12 10:31:29 <somebody__> so I have an idea for a smartphone app. Can't seem to find anything simular for Android. Basically it's just an invoice system. So say person 1 owes person 2 money. Person 2 creates an invoice for an amount, and the app creates a new bitcoin address and a QR code with that information. Person 1 scans (or gets via email or whatever) the QR code/information with the amount owed and the address, then pays over the network.
1450 2011-06-12 10:31:43 <somebody__> does that make sense/anyone hear of anything simular?
1451 2011-06-12 10:31:47 <gmaxwell> This has been a matter of much drama for SHA-3 â many designers submitted both wide and narrow versions.
1452 2011-06-12 10:31:53 <gmaxwell> The wide versions being much slower...
1453 2011-06-12 10:32:00 <mtrlt> hehe :)
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1460 2011-06-12 10:46:58 <ArdaXi> Is there a proposal for darknet functionality in Bitcoin already?
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1463 2011-06-12 10:49:51 <gjs278> I do not understand what that would entitle
1464 2011-06-12 10:50:10 <cosurgi> tcatm_: something's wrong with your script. it hangs quite often and firefox asks me if I want to stop it. I had to disable javascript completely, or I would get mad withi this popup window asking "do you want to stop script?", especially because it does not respect "don't ask me again" option.
1465 2011-06-12 10:50:21 <ArdaXi> gjs278: Only connect to trusted peers.
1466 2011-06-12 10:50:40 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: somebody is working on a freenet transport layer yes
1467 2011-06-12 10:50:52 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Not what I mean.
1468 2011-06-12 10:50:59 <xtalmath> how not?
1469 2011-06-12 10:51:00 <ArdaXi> I mean darknet directly on Bitcoin.
1470 2011-06-12 10:51:09 <ArdaXi> Not relying on a seperate network like Freenet.
1471 2011-06-12 10:51:09 <xtalmath> Darknet is a FreeNet
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1473 2011-06-12 10:51:47 <ArdaXi> Other way around.
1474 2011-06-12 10:51:49 <ArdaXi> Freenet is a darknet.
1475 2011-06-12 10:52:14 <ArdaXi> But I'm talking about a Bitcoin client working as a darknet.
1476 2011-06-12 10:52:26 <xtalmath> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet#Darknet_versus_Opennet
1477 2011-06-12 10:52:38 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I know.
1478 2011-06-12 10:52:55 <xtalmath> opennet mode of freenet is not a darknet, and agree that there are more darknets than the one implemented in FreeNet
1479 2011-06-12 10:53:01 <ArdaXi> Freenet can work as a darknet, and as an opennet. I'd love for that to happen with Bitcoin as well.
1480 2011-06-12 10:54:02 <xtalmath> why should bitcoin develop a new darknet protocol? just use the existing darknet... somebodys working on a transport layer for FreeNet
1481 2011-06-12 10:54:21 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Because Freenet isn't perfect for that.
1482 2011-06-12 10:54:27 <ArdaXi> With Bitcoin it'd work like this
1483 2011-06-12 10:54:37 <ArdaXi> The Bitcoin client only connects to nodes it explicitly trusts.
1484 2011-06-12 10:55:01 <xtalmath> *yawn* amateur cryptocruft
1485 2011-06-12 10:55:15 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Oh?
1486 2011-06-12 10:55:43 <xtalmath> "Opennet connections are made automatically by nodes with opennet enabled, while darknet connections are manually established between users that know and trust each other."
1487 2011-06-12 10:56:07 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Yes.
1488 2011-06-12 10:56:12 <ArdaXi> I'm talking about Bitcoin working like that too.
1489 2011-06-12 10:56:14 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: you can
1490 2011-06-12 10:56:21 <xtalmath> RTFM before you remember you saw some youtube videos and remember prior art as your own (and FreeNet wasnt first either)
1491 2011-06-12 10:56:23 <Diablo-D3> but the problem is, its useless unless it has a view of the network
1492 2011-06-12 10:56:36 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I know it isn't.
1493 2011-06-12 10:56:51 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: As long as you're connected to a node that's connected to the opennet, you have the entire network.
1494 2011-06-12 10:56:59 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: and you want it to be the same blockchain as current bitcoin?
1495 2011-06-12 10:57:07 <wumpus> bitcoin can already layer over tor, and people are working on I2P
1496 2011-06-12 10:57:11 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Yes.
1497 2011-06-12 10:57:16 <ArdaXi> wumpus: Tor isn't a darknet.
1498 2011-06-12 10:57:17 <xtalmath> since that would require all current nodes to run freenet
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1500 2011-06-12 10:57:25 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT FREENET
1501 2011-06-12 10:57:31 <wumpus> it's dark enough for most people :P
1502 2011-06-12 10:57:31 <ArdaXi> Please try to understand this.
1503 2011-06-12 10:57:42 <ArdaXi> I'm talking about the EXISTING Bitcoin network running AS a darknet.
1504 2011-06-12 10:57:45 <ArdaXi> AS IS
1505 2011-06-12 10:58:13 <xtalmath> you just want the copyright information of the sourcecode to reference bitcoin community? go ahead change the sources for yourself
1506 2011-06-12 10:58:20 <ArdaXi> What?
1507 2011-06-12 10:58:27 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: You have no idea what I'm saying, it seems.
1508 2011-06-12 10:58:32 <xtalmath> Why are you against modularization?
1509 2011-06-12 10:58:38 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: What?
1510 2011-06-12 10:58:56 <ArdaXi> Okay, let's take it step-by-step.
1511 2011-06-12 10:59:00 <xtalmath> how will you force people to run a darknet?
1512 2011-06-12 10:59:05 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I'm not.
1513 2011-06-12 10:59:08 <ArdaXi> Listen to me now.
1514 2011-06-12 10:59:15 <Diablo-D3> [06:56:48] <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: As long as you're connected to a node that's connected to the opennet, you have the entire network.
1515 2011-06-12 10:59:17 <Diablo-D3> exactly and you can
1516 2011-06-12 10:59:24 <Diablo-D3> the client has ahd that since the beginning
1517 2011-06-12 10:59:31 <Diablo-D3> so you can hide nodes behind other nodes
1518 2011-06-12 10:59:34 <ArdaXi> The Bitcoin client relays all transactions it receives and it finds acceptable, right?
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1520 2011-06-12 10:59:48 <ArdaXi> Relays them to every node it's connected to, I mean.
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1522 2011-06-12 11:00:20 <Diablo-D3> start with an empty ~/.bitcoin, start it with -addnode=ip
1523 2011-06-12 11:00:23 <ArdaXi> So if you only connect to nodes you trust, and no other, and that node is connected to the entire network through some amount of hops.
1524 2011-06-12 11:00:25 <Diablo-D3> tada
1525 2011-06-12 11:00:25 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: all you have to do is to convince the friends you directly trust to hide behind each others nodes
1526 2011-06-12 11:00:27 <Diablo-D3> instant darknet.
1527 2011-06-12 11:00:35 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: How do you stop it from connecting to the IRC?
1528 2011-06-12 11:00:38 <Diablo-D3> that.
1529 2011-06-12 11:00:44 <Diablo-D3> it wont connect if you use that
1530 2011-06-12 11:00:51 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Are you sure?
1531 2011-06-12 11:00:52 <iera> Diablo-D3: no, it would be -connect=ip iirc
1532 2011-06-12 11:00:59 <Diablo-D3> oh right
1533 2011-06-12 11:01:02 <Diablo-D3> iera is right
1534 2011-06-12 11:01:04 <Diablo-D3> its -connect
1535 2011-06-12 11:01:10 <xtalmath> yes connect makes only one connection, addnode adds connections
1536 2011-06-12 11:01:34 <ArdaXi> Well, yes, but it should allow any amount of nodes you trust.
1537 2011-06-12 11:01:37 fimp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1538 2011-06-12 11:01:44 <ArdaXi> Because if everyone only trusts one node, that still breaks the network.
1539 2011-06-12 11:01:45 <Diablo-D3> I _think_ you can specify that multiple times
1540 2011-06-12 11:01:55 <xtalmath> thats why theres a bitcoin.conf?
1541 2011-06-12 11:02:04 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: but the functionality is there
1542 2011-06-12 11:02:08 <Diablo-D3> so whats the issue
1543 2011-06-12 11:02:18 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Okay, now all that needs to be done is to include it in the GUI somewhere down the road.
1544 2011-06-12 11:02:22 <xtalmath> the only issue I see is that that content is not encrypted
1545 2011-06-12 11:02:23 <ArdaXi> Or at the very least make it better known.
1546 2011-06-12 11:02:34 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Yeah. I'm not entirely sure how Freenet does it.
1547 2011-06-12 11:03:04 <ArdaXi> Something like CAKE
1548 2011-06-12 11:03:07 <ArdaXi> http://www.cakem.net/
1549 2011-06-12 11:03:58 <ArdaXi> You simply add the public key of your trusted node into your client.
1550 2011-06-12 11:04:08 TD_ has joined
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1552 2011-06-12 11:04:31 <xtalmath> I know you can list multiple addnodes, but also multiple connects?
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1555 2011-06-12 11:04:57 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: But adding them by IP address is inherently unsafe, especially if you think your connecting is monitored upstream.
1556 2011-06-12 11:04:58 <xtalmath> and doesnt bitcoin advertise your friends to your friends?
1557 2011-06-12 11:05:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: bitcoin is open source. write a patch.
1558 2011-06-12 11:05:17 <Diablo-D3> errr
1559 2011-06-12 11:05:23 datagutt has joined
1560 2011-06-12 11:05:23 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: You meant me. :)
1561 2011-06-12 11:05:23 datagutt has quit (Changing host)
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1563 2011-06-12 11:05:24 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: bitcoin is open source. write a patch.
1564 2011-06-12 11:05:27 <ArdaXi> Everyone keeps telling me that.
1565 2011-06-12 11:05:33 <ArdaXi> But I'm not going to.
1566 2011-06-12 11:05:41 <ArdaXi> Because I don't know enough about cryptography to make it secure enough.
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1570 2011-06-12 11:06:14 <Diablo-D3> it isnt about crypto
1571 2011-06-12 11:06:20 <Diablo-D3> its a few lines added to the prefs dialog
1572 2011-06-12 11:06:26 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: I just told you.
1573 2011-06-12 11:06:27 grug has joined
1574 2011-06-12 11:06:32 <ArdaXi> But adding them by IP address is inherently unsafe, especially if you think your connecting is monitored upstream.
1575 2011-06-12 11:06:40 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but then you use tor
1576 2011-06-12 11:06:45 <Diablo-D3> but then again, tor is ALSO unsafe
1577 2011-06-12 11:06:47 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Still unsafe.
1578 2011-06-12 11:06:51 <Diablo-D3> since the government runs enough of the exit nodes
1579 2011-06-12 11:06:54 <Diablo-D3> so basically
1580 2011-06-12 11:06:56 <Diablo-D3> nothing is safe.
1581 2011-06-12 11:07:00 <Diablo-D3> problem solved.
1582 2011-06-12 11:07:01 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Aww.
1583 2011-06-12 11:07:04 <ArdaXi> You were doing so well.
1584 2011-06-12 11:07:11 <ArdaXi> The answer lies in public-key cryptography.
1585 2011-06-12 11:07:17 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, bitcoin is not secure against MitM attacks without significant gui changes and user education
1586 2011-06-12 11:07:24 <Diablo-D3> but then you have to assume crypto has not been backdoored by the government
1587 2011-06-12 11:07:35 gsathya has left ()
1588 2011-06-12 11:07:37 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: RSA is public key crypto
1589 2011-06-12 11:07:42 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1590 2011-06-12 11:07:52 <ArdaXi> We already use public-key crypto in Bitcoin.
1591 2011-06-12 11:07:56 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: actually, unless you block every single connection, its mitm safe
1592 2011-06-12 11:08:09 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: only signing, not cryptography
1593 2011-06-12 11:08:12 <ArdaXi> So long as you encrypt every Bitcoin message with your trusted peer's public key.
1594 2011-06-12 11:08:13 badmanu has joined
1595 2011-06-12 11:08:23 <xtalmath> erm not encrypting
1596 2011-06-12 11:08:26 <ArdaXi> And you know that public-key is correct (exchanged physically, for example)
1597 2011-06-12 11:08:32 <Diablo-D3> you dont have to encrypt, just sign
1598 2011-06-12 11:08:34 <ArdaXi> It's resistant to MITM.
1599 2011-06-12 11:08:37 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: You do.
1600 2011-06-12 11:08:49 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, that's what i was saying actually, mitm is basically the easier sybil attack ever
1601 2011-06-12 11:08:51 <Diablo-D3> well, if you want to outright HIDE it
1602 2011-06-12 11:08:52 <ArdaXi> Otherwise, the attacker knows you're doing Bitcoin.
1603 2011-06-12 11:08:53 <xtalmath> ArdaXi wants to encrypt
1604 2011-06-12 11:09:05 <Diablo-D3> then you need to encrypt the entire tcp socket
1605 2011-06-12 11:09:13 <Diablo-D3> which is a shitload easier than fucking with bitcoin
1606 2011-06-12 11:09:20 elmom has joined
1607 2011-06-12 11:09:28 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Look at how Freenet does darknet.
1608 2011-06-12 11:09:38 <Diablo-D3> freenet over does it
1609 2011-06-12 11:09:43 <Diablo-D3> and doesnt follow the unix way
1610 2011-06-12 11:09:45 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Not really.
1611 2011-06-12 11:09:49 <ArdaXi> Well, don't know about that.
1612 2011-06-12 11:09:57 <Diablo-D3> a private distributed encrypted vpn would be useful to OTHER things
1613 2011-06-12 11:10:08 <ArdaXi> But Freenet is made to cater to people who have reason to be paranoid too.
1614 2011-06-12 11:10:10 <Diablo-D3> thus the unix way tells you to make a generic resuable tool.
1615 2011-06-12 11:10:23 <Diablo-D3> freenet is for child porn idiots
1616 2011-06-12 11:10:29 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, actually freenet is a perfect match for part of bitcoin
1617 2011-06-12 11:10:31 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: False.
1618 2011-06-12 11:10:45 <ArdaXi> But I'm not talking about the merits of the network.
1619 2011-06-12 11:10:45 <Diablo-D3> there is child porn somewhere on freenet.
1620 2011-06-12 11:10:46 <iera> ArdaXi: talk to xelister, he also works on that
1621 2011-06-12 11:10:54 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, freenet is basically a distributed hash indexed storage system
1622 2011-06-12 11:10:54 <ArdaXi> And I am NOT talking about Bitcoin over Freenet.
1623 2011-06-12 11:10:55 <Diablo-D3> whatever happened to xelister anyhow
1624 2011-06-12 11:11:00 <Diablo-D3> I havent seen him bitching about shit lately
1625 2011-06-12 11:11:07 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes, Im aware of what it is
1626 2011-06-12 11:11:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I could design a system like that in my sleep
1627 2011-06-12 11:11:32 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, a simple dht would do
1628 2011-06-12 11:11:33 <Diablo-D3> it just isnt interesting to me
1629 2011-06-12 11:11:42 <phantomcircuit> but freenet is already there
1630 2011-06-12 11:11:48 <Diablo-D3> I dont even get why people think dhts are hard
1631 2011-06-12 11:11:56 <ArdaXi> But what if, hypothetically, the US government decides to crack down on Bitcoin.
1632 2011-06-12 11:12:08 xtalmath has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1633 2011-06-12 11:12:14 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: that'd be idiotic
1634 2011-06-12 11:12:16 <gjs278> how wil they
1635 2011-06-12 11:12:21 <gjs278> they cant even shutdown torrent sites
1636 2011-06-12 11:12:24 <Diablo-D3> I mean, look at the whole silk road trainwreck
1637 2011-06-12 11:12:24 <ArdaXi> Ask ISPs to monitor for Bitcoin traffic.
1638 2011-06-12 11:12:29 <Diablo-D3> silk road was a CIA front
1639 2011-06-12 11:12:32 <Diablo-D3> "oops"
1640 2011-06-12 11:12:36 jimbo has joined
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1642 2011-06-12 11:12:44 <gjs278> they cant even shutdown uhhh well I'm not going to mention anything specific so I don't get flagged by my isp
1643 2011-06-12 11:12:47 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: yeah, and then I tor all my connections and use foreign nodes.
1644 2011-06-12 11:12:50 <ArdaXi> I'm not saying it's probable, but its'possible.
1645 2011-06-12 11:12:56 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Tor isn't a magic bullet.
1646 2011-06-12 11:13:01 <Diablo-D3> no, tor isnt
1647 2011-06-12 11:13:15 <Diablo-D3> but as long as the government wants to use tor, I will be able to as well.
1648 2011-06-12 11:13:16 jimbo is now known as jimb0
1649 2011-06-12 11:13:26 <ArdaXi> It does?
1650 2011-06-12 11:13:32 <gjs278> it was made by the navy
1651 2011-06-12 11:13:41 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: yes and no
1652 2011-06-12 11:13:52 <gjs278> the navy has used it at some point
1653 2011-06-12 11:13:54 <gjs278> is close enough
1654 2011-06-12 11:13:58 <ArdaXi> It was sponsored by the navy.
1655 2011-06-12 11:14:03 <Diablo-D3> the navy does a lot of DoD projects that arent related to naval activities
1656 2011-06-12 11:14:17 <Diablo-D3> its a quirk of how shit gets done
1657 2011-06-12 11:14:37 <ArdaXi> But realistically it's easier to get Bitcoin banned legally than it is to get torrents banned legally.
1658 2011-06-12 11:14:39 <Diablo-D3> but the CIA absolutely loves tor
1659 2011-06-12 11:15:08 <gjs278> no it's not
1660 2011-06-12 11:15:13 <gjs278> it's way easier to ban torrents
1661 2011-06-12 11:15:19 <ArdaXi> gjs278: why would it?
1662 2011-06-12 11:15:24 <Diablo-D3> actually, its hard to ban torrents now
1663 2011-06-12 11:15:28 <ArdaXi> Bitcoin can be argued to be illegal under US law.
1664 2011-06-12 11:15:28 <Diablo-D3> too much shit uses it legitimately
1665 2011-06-12 11:15:33 TD_ has joined
1666 2011-06-12 11:15:37 <gjs278> so can torrents
1667 2011-06-12 11:15:42 <ArdaXi> gjs278: No, they can't.
1668 2011-06-12 11:15:43 Nockm has joined
1669 2011-06-12 11:15:46 <gjs278> yes they can
1670 2011-06-12 11:15:48 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is as illegal as poker chips and monopoly money
1671 2011-06-12 11:15:51 <gjs278> go run a torrent tracker if you think so
1672 2011-06-12 11:15:53 <gjs278> in the US
1673 2011-06-12 11:16:03 <Diablo-D3> its not real
1674 2011-06-12 11:16:07 <Diablo-D3> I cant hold it in my hands
1675 2011-06-12 11:16:08 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: It's as illegal as using monopoly money as legal tender.
1676 2011-06-12 11:16:12 <Diablo-D3> its 100% fictional
1677 2011-06-12 11:16:13 <ArdaXi> Which is illegal.
1678 2011-06-12 11:16:14 <gjs278> lol
1679 2011-06-12 11:16:26 <Diablo-D3> all these crazy fuckers who are paying real money for it are nuts
1680 2011-06-12 11:16:32 <Diablo-D3> the btc system has zero actual value.
1681 2011-06-12 11:16:33 <gjs278> yeah
1682 2011-06-12 11:16:40 <Diablo-D3> so dont give me that shit, ArdaXi
1683 2011-06-12 11:16:50 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: I'm not talking about the truth here.
1684 2011-06-12 11:16:52 <gjs278> there's no actual coin
1685 2011-06-12 11:16:56 <ArdaXi> I'm talking about the US government's perception of it.
1686 2011-06-12 11:16:59 reeses has quit (Quit: reeses)
1687 2011-06-12 11:17:05 <ArdaXi> Doesn't even have to be close.
1688 2011-06-12 11:17:07 <Diablo-D3> and you know what'll happen if they try?
1689 2011-06-12 11:17:14 <ArdaXi> They'll succeed?
1690 2011-06-12 11:17:17 <Diablo-D3> a 100 more bitcoin systems will pop up.
1691 2011-06-12 11:17:21 <gjs278> how would they
1692 2011-06-12 11:17:26 <gjs278> tell me the success scenario
1693 2011-06-12 11:17:30 <xtalmath> Since one can safely trade coins between different blockchains (if one of the clients can monitor the other chain), and if we can convince governments to use their own Bernanke version of bitcoin, where THEY can 'print' extra coins when they want... Then another blockchain can escrow between the government coins and the bitcoins...
1694 2011-06-12 11:17:32 <ArdaXi> gjs278: Bitcoin isn't really well known by the public at the moment
1695 2011-06-12 11:17:35 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: because people want it.
1696 2011-06-12 11:17:38 <gjs278> no
1697 2011-06-12 11:17:40 <gjs278> I mean
1698 2011-06-12 11:17:41 <Diablo-D3> look at torrents
1699 2011-06-12 11:17:42 <ArdaXi> They only have to say it's used by terrorists. (think luzsec)
1700 2011-06-12 11:17:43 <Diablo-D3> shut a tracker down
1701 2011-06-12 11:17:44 <gjs278> the scenario where btcoin is shutdown
1702 2011-06-12 11:17:50 <gjs278> [06:16] <ArdaXi> They'll succeed?
1703 2011-06-12 11:17:50 <Diablo-D3> a dozen more pop up
1704 2011-06-12 11:17:52 <gjs278> that
1705 2011-06-12 11:17:56 <ArdaXi> And then they invoke the patriot act
1706 2011-06-12 11:17:57 <ArdaXi> BAM
1707 2011-06-12 11:17:59 <ArdaXi> illegal.
1708 2011-06-12 11:18:00 <Diablo-D3> you cant stop the will of the american people
1709 2011-06-12 11:18:02 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: thats really beginning to change
1710 2011-06-12 11:18:05 <gjs278> you still haven't said how they would stop it
1711 2011-06-12 11:18:13 <xtalmath> I encounter lots of people talking about bitcoins
1712 2011-06-12 11:18:16 <ArdaXi> gjs278: I have. They can monitor for Bitcoin traffic.
1713 2011-06-12 11:18:16 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: how do they _stop_ it though
1714 2011-06-12 11:18:17 <gjs278> making it illegal doesn't stop it
1715 2011-06-12 11:18:21 <gjs278> no they can't
1716 2011-06-12 11:18:29 <ArdaXi> gjs278: Penalizing people using it is possible.
1717 2011-06-12 11:18:37 <Diablo-D3> we add port randomization and ssl
1718 2011-06-12 11:18:40 <gjs278> exactly
1719 2011-06-12 11:18:40 <ArdaXi> Besides, companies won't use something that is illegal.
1720 2011-06-12 11:18:42 <Diablo-D3> how do you monitor it then?
1721 2011-06-12 11:18:48 <iera> they could only go after the exchanges
1722 2011-06-12 11:18:49 <gjs278> I don't care if companies use it
1723 2011-06-12 11:18:50 <ArdaXi> If Bitcoin is made illegal
1724 2011-06-12 11:18:53 <ArdaXi> it can still be used
1725 2011-06-12 11:18:53 <Diablo-D3> companies do illegal things every day
1726 2011-06-12 11:18:57 <ArdaXi> but nobody will accept it.
1727 2011-06-12 11:19:02 <gjs278> nobody accepts it already
1728 2011-06-12 11:19:08 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: The government will simply force companies not to accept it
1729 2011-06-12 11:19:12 <Diablo-D3> how many hundreds of thousands of people did big oil murder?
1730 2011-06-12 11:19:20 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: sure, and then that costs them tax dollars.
1731 2011-06-12 11:19:21 <gjs278> I will personally accept them though
1732 2011-06-12 11:19:23 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Hardly.
1733 2011-06-12 11:19:26 <Diablo-D3> the government exists to collect taxes.
1734 2011-06-12 11:19:28 <gjs278> and I'll sell them on exchanges
1735 2011-06-12 11:19:36 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1736 2011-06-12 11:19:36 TD_ is now known as TD
1737 2011-06-12 11:19:42 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: seriously, let the government try
1738 2011-06-12 11:19:48 <gjs278> come at me br0
1739 2011-06-12 11:19:50 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: They will.
1740 2011-06-12 11:19:51 <Diablo-D3> the worst case is they win
1741 2011-06-12 11:19:58 <ArdaXi> Either they will or Bitcoin won't be successful.
1742 2011-06-12 11:20:11 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin by definition cannot succeed.
1743 2011-06-12 11:20:12 <ArdaXi> Because if Bitcoin becomes successful, governments WILL try to stop it.
1744 2011-06-12 11:20:16 <ArdaXi> That's an inevitability.
1745 2011-06-12 11:20:20 <gjs278> how could it not be successful, the coins will always be worth a penny to some guy somewhere
1746 2011-06-12 11:20:36 <ArdaXi> gjs278: If you think one person accepting it is successful, sure.
1747 2011-06-12 11:20:39 <gjs278> people still pay money for ron paul bucks on ebay
1748 2011-06-12 11:21:01 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: what, real liberty dollars?
1749 2011-06-12 11:21:04 <ArdaXi> Anyway, I was just proposing a system which could improve the security of the Bitcoin network, nothing more.
1750 2011-06-12 11:21:08 <gjs278> well
1751 2011-06-12 11:21:10 <gjs278> not the bucks
1752 2011-06-12 11:21:12 <gjs278> I think just rp coins
1753 2011-06-12 11:21:13 <ArdaXi> Why did this turn into a debate on its future?
1754 2011-06-12 11:21:14 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt mind having one of the ron paul minted coins
1755 2011-06-12 11:21:20 <gjs278> I think you can get the coins
1756 2011-06-12 11:21:29 <Diablo-D3> to numanists, they're very fucking interesting
1757 2011-06-12 11:21:30 Guest97490 is now known as minus
1758 2011-06-12 11:21:34 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: well remember, the government stole them all
1759 2011-06-12 11:21:38 <Diablo-D3> theres really not that many out there
1760 2011-06-12 11:21:38 <gjs278> you can buy confederate money ifyou want to
1761 2011-06-12 11:21:46 <Diablo-D3> heh, confederate money is EVERYWHERE
1762 2011-06-12 11:21:52 <Diablo-D3> that shits on ebay all the time
1763 2011-06-12 11:22:09 <gjs278> http://cgi.ebay.com/1-Ounce-Ron-Paul-Silver-Liberty-20-Numismatic-Coin-/160600882010?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25648efb5a
1764 2011-06-12 11:22:11 <gjs278> ron paul coin
1765 2011-06-12 11:22:18 <gjs278> $190
1766 2011-06-12 11:22:18 <Diablo-D3> shot
1767 2011-06-12 11:22:19 <gjs278> lol
1768 2011-06-12 11:22:19 <Diablo-D3> shit
1769 2011-06-12 11:22:20 <Diablo-D3> $190
1770 2011-06-12 11:22:27 <Diablo-D3> see what I mean though?
1771 2011-06-12 11:22:29 <gjs278> look at that face
1772 2011-06-12 11:22:31 <gjs278> that face is freedom
1773 2011-06-12 11:22:37 <Diablo-D3> THE FACE OF FREEDOM
1774 2011-06-12 11:22:43 honeybadger has joined
1775 2011-06-12 11:22:44 <Diablo-D3> RON PAUL/DIABLO 2012
1776 2011-06-12 11:22:54 <Diablo-D3> wait, why the fuck am I VP
1777 2011-06-12 11:22:58 <phantomcircuit> lolol
1778 2011-06-12 11:23:09 <Diablo-D3> DIABLO/RON PAUL 2012
1779 2011-06-12 11:23:17 <Diablo-D3> SUBMIT TO THE AWESOME
1780 2011-06-12 11:23:28 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, to be fair it has 0 bids
1781 2011-06-12 11:23:46 <gjs278> I've seen real lots for them
1782 2011-06-12 11:23:54 <gjs278> that guy is obviously out of his mind for 190
1783 2011-06-12 11:24:04 <gjs278> http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Bitcoins-Bitcoin-BTC-/250835190781?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a66f143fd
1784 2011-06-12 11:24:09 <gjs278> the people for that auction
1785 2011-06-12 11:24:15 <gjs278> made a good buy
1786 2011-06-12 11:24:20 <Diablo-D3> ahhahaha
1787 2011-06-12 11:24:23 <Diablo-D3> wait
1788 2011-06-12 11:24:26 <Diablo-D3> I can ebay coins?!
1789 2011-06-12 11:24:35 <gjs278> there's a lot of them on here
1790 2011-06-12 11:24:38 <gjs278> a lot of zero bids
1791 2011-06-12 11:24:45 <gjs278> and probably a good way to get your associated paypal account killed
1792 2011-06-12 11:24:52 <Diablo-D3> yeah really
1793 2011-06-12 11:26:35 <xtalmath> I was thinking since only a subset of people who have a cpu have a gpu, and since gpu vary wildly in performance... perhaps more people would find it fair if mining was cpu centered... perhaps factoring numbers, and difficulty increases size?
1794 2011-06-12 11:26:43 mif has joined
1795 2011-06-12 11:26:56 <gjs278> little late for that
1796 2011-06-12 11:27:03 mif has left ()
1797 2011-06-12 11:27:22 <xtalmath> no, only a third of coins is issued, and one might start a seperate chain
1798 2011-06-12 11:27:43 <gjs278> if bitcoins ever officially starts its chain over, nobody would take it seriously
1799 2011-06-12 11:27:48 gavinandresen has joined
1800 2011-06-12 11:28:02 <xtalmath> just like nobody takes namecoin seriously?
1801 2011-06-12 11:28:06 <gjs278> yes
1802 2011-06-12 11:28:07 <gjs278> exactyl
1803 2011-06-12 11:28:27 weinerk has joined
1804 2011-06-12 11:29:09 * xtalmath sniffs some exactyl
1805 2011-06-12 11:29:16 weinerk has left ("Killed buffer")
1806 2011-06-12 11:29:22 <ArdaXi> I gotta order some more at SR.
1807 2011-06-12 11:29:34 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: wait
1808 2011-06-12 11:29:40 <Diablo-D3> are you implying theres something gpus cant do quickly?
1809 2011-06-12 11:29:56 <xtalmath> of course
1810 2011-06-12 11:30:11 <xtalmath> if it has lots of conditional branchin hell yes
1811 2011-06-12 11:30:18 <Diablo-D3> I can still do its slowly in massive parallel
1812 2011-06-12 11:30:40 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: Slowly isn't quickly.
1813 2011-06-12 11:30:52 <Diablo-D3> ArdaXi: it is if I do 1600 of them at a time.
1814 2011-06-12 11:30:52 <ArdaXi> Just... you know... throwing that out there.
1815 2011-06-12 11:31:00 <Diablo-D3> its not like radeons do sha256 quickly
1816 2011-06-12 11:31:02 <Diablo-D3> they dont
1817 2011-06-12 11:31:05 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: You can do that quicker with CPUs.
1818 2011-06-12 11:31:05 <Diablo-D3> its slower than a cpu
1819 2011-06-12 11:31:18 <Diablo-D3> Im just doing a shitload of them in parallel
1820 2011-06-12 11:31:34 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,gen 367
1821 2011-06-12 11:31:35 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 367 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 0.000650627768644 BTC per day and 2.71094903602e-05 BTC per hour.
1822 2011-06-12 11:31:36 <xtalmath> diablo-d3 to get an idea just try to compile a bignum style library on CUDA or the likes...
1823 2011-06-12 11:31:36 <Diablo-D3> er
1824 2011-06-12 11:31:39 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,gen 367000
1825 2011-06-12 11:31:39 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 367000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 0.650627768644 BTC per day and 0.0271094903602 BTC per hour.
1826 2011-06-12 11:31:53 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: why would I use CUDA for anything?
1827 2011-06-12 11:32:01 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,calc 367000
1828 2011-06-12 11:32:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 367000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 10 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 21 seconds
1829 2011-06-12 11:32:06 <ArdaXi> Diablo-D3: The likes would probably inclue OpenCL
1830 2011-06-12 11:32:25 <gjs278> 10 weeks is a lie, I genned a coin on 360khash a few days ago
1831 2011-06-12 11:32:31 <falafell> i think gribble is a bit off? i barely get 0.3 @ 750mhash/s
1832 2011-06-12 11:32:34 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: lol
1833 2011-06-12 11:32:36 <xtalmath> Diablo: look at sha256 algo, the only conditionals are over the loops, all the rest is calculation with primitive functions
1834 2011-06-12 11:32:51 <gjs278> I found 2 blocks in like 3 days on deep
1835 2011-06-12 11:32:55 <Diablo-D3> falafell: you might be experiencing a miner bug.
1836 2011-06-12 11:32:56 <xtalmath> theres no conditionals but, did we iterate 64 times etc
1837 2011-06-12 11:32:59 <gjs278> with 1.5ghash
1838 2011-06-12 11:33:03 Nicksasa is now known as Sleep!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
1839 2011-06-12 11:33:03 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: you do realize I wrote a miner, right?
1840 2011-06-12 11:33:05 <falafell> diablo im using phoenix
1841 2011-06-12 11:33:12 <xtalmath> yes
1842 2011-06-12 11:33:22 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: Im fully aware of what sha256 looks like.
1843 2011-06-12 11:33:25 <xtalmath> ok
1844 2011-06-12 11:33:43 <xtalmath> Then do you think you can write a general number field sieve for gpu's?
1845 2011-06-12 11:34:47 <xtalmath> theres lots of problems that are specific to a certain resource, theres also one where RAM is important
1846 2011-06-12 11:35:31 LURKYMURKY has joined
1847 2011-06-12 11:35:59 pRjck3vC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1848 2011-06-12 11:37:42 <LURKYMURKY> Hi, today I tried Bitcoin client on windows, I used the zip version and run as non-admin, german local, I get this error when calling "your address" dialog: http://i.imgur.com/kl5ac.png
1849 2011-06-12 11:37:44 Barnabast has joined
1850 2011-06-12 11:37:49 <LURKYMURKY> is this a known bug?
1851 2011-06-12 11:38:56 <phantomcircuit> LURKYMURKY, weird, that's basically saying that there is an icon missing
1852 2011-06-12 11:39:16 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1853 2011-06-12 11:39:41 pRjck3vC has joined
1854 2011-06-12 11:40:57 <LURKYMURKY> yes, looks like some missing icon, however might scare many people... I just double checked, it is reproducable with the bitcoin-0.3.22-win32.zip package
1855 2011-06-12 11:41:26 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: well, I know I could sort numbers in parallel at high speed.
1856 2011-06-12 11:41:31 zyb has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1857 2011-06-12 11:41:39 Nicksasa has joined
1858 2011-06-12 11:42:12 vikarti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1859 2011-06-12 11:42:15 <xtalmath> I dont have windows, does anyone have windows and cares to download M$ BinScope from their site (its free) its a tool to check with which security settings a binary was compiled if compiled with m$ compilers. Its quite crucial to do a diagnostic of at least its compiler settings like /GS ... I tried to do it on a university computer the other day but shitty BinScope is in the form of an installer and dont have administrator access on uni computers
1860 2011-06-12 11:42:34 <LURKYMURKY> BTW if I click YES in the dialog asking me if I want to stop the program, it crashes.
1861 2011-06-12 11:42:40 vikarti has joined
1862 2011-06-12 11:42:49 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I can.
1863 2011-06-12 11:43:27 <xtalmath> Diablo-D3: possibly
1864 2011-06-12 11:43:54 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: What do you want me to aim BinScope at?
1865 2011-06-12 11:44:03 <xtalmath> what kind of memory size do GPUs have these days?
1866 2011-06-12 11:44:11 <LURKYMURKY> If I click NO or CANCEL it just excutes along, no problems... of course I do not know if there is some icon missing that should be anywhere...
1867 2011-06-12 11:44:17 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Upwards of a GB I think.
1868 2011-06-12 11:45:06 <directhex> xtalmath: gigs.
1869 2011-06-12 11:45:19 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: the windows precompiled BitCoin clients, say the .21 .22 and their beta versions, as many as you can get your hands on, just as long as they originated from the bitcoin.org page...
1870 2011-06-12 11:45:45 <ArdaXi> Doing 22 now, the only one I have installed.
1871 2011-06-12 11:45:45 zyb has joined
1872 2011-06-12 11:45:52 <ArdaXi> As soon as I've figured out how it works that is.
1873 2011-06-12 11:46:21 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: they make 2gb normal game cards
1874 2011-06-12 11:46:30 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: plus, its not limited to that
1875 2011-06-12 11:46:31 <xtalmath> I only learnt a few days ago that decision diagrams can be parallellised. Perhaps GPU's can construct BDD's?
1876 2011-06-12 11:46:44 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: btw, dont say "possibly" for number osrting
1877 2011-06-12 11:46:50 <Diablo-D3> its like the first thing you learn in opencl hello world
1878 2011-06-12 11:46:50 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Symbol database would be helpful, but I'm running it now.
1879 2011-06-12 11:46:53 <directhex> xtalmath: a radeon 6970, highest end single-gpu card amd make, is 2 gig. a geforce gtx 580 is 1.5 gig
1880 2011-06-12 11:46:55 <LURKYMURKY> downloading binscope right now
1881 2011-06-12 11:47:07 <xtalmath> I meant: I can imagine that, I dont doubt your words
1882 2011-06-12 11:47:09 <Diablo-D3> directhex: no
1883 2011-06-12 11:47:17 <Diablo-D3> they make pro cards that have 4
1884 2011-06-12 11:47:27 <io_error> 4-gpu cards?
1885 2011-06-12 11:47:32 <Diablo-D3> no, 4 gigs
1886 2011-06-12 11:47:33 <directhex> xtalmath: nobody cares about tesla in this context.
1887 2011-06-12 11:47:36 <Diablo-D3> and its not like it matters
1888 2011-06-12 11:47:36 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I'll upload the report for you.
1889 2011-06-12 11:47:41 <io_error> Damn!
1890 2011-06-12 11:47:45 <Diablo-D3> thats effectively cache memory
1891 2011-06-12 11:47:50 <Diablo-D3> you're limited to whatever your box holds
1892 2011-06-12 11:48:00 <xtalmath> ardaxi: thanks
1893 2011-06-12 11:49:16 <directhex> bah. i meand Diablo-D3: nobody cares about tesla in this context.
1894 2011-06-12 11:49:26 <Diablo-D3> who said nivida?
1895 2011-06-12 11:49:27 <xtalmath> I also believe that 0day vulnerabilities will be avoided if debug files for the official compilation are provided....
1896 2011-06-12 11:49:29 <Diablo-D3> Im talking AMD
1897 2011-06-12 11:49:40 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: http://f.ardaxi.com/bitcoin-22.html
1898 2011-06-12 11:49:51 TheAncientGoat has joined
1899 2011-06-12 11:50:19 <ArdaXi> Most checks seem to require a symbol database.
1900 2011-06-12 11:50:58 <xtalmath> not providing them will only have real crackers compile themselves, and find bijection between 2 flowgraphs, and will be able to point anywhere in C and get to the ASM and vice versa on the debugfile less binary
1901 2011-06-12 11:51:16 <directhex> Diablo-D3: nobody cares about firestream or firepro either.
1902 2011-06-12 11:51:19 <TheAncientGoat> bitcoin, the currency backed by a website :P
1903 2011-06-12 11:51:30 <xtalmath> building flowgraph and finding bijection is automatable
1904 2011-06-12 11:51:31 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I know, but the checks are failing because theres no PDB debug info
1905 2011-06-12 11:52:07 <ArdaXi> Look at the Checks that didn't complete section
1906 2011-06-12 11:52:22 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: thats why I say they can be built if the source code is known
1907 2011-06-12 11:52:31 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Yeah, but not by me.
1908 2011-06-12 11:52:35 <xtalmath> ok
1909 2011-06-12 11:52:41 <Diablo-D3> directhex: well, they're rather normal video cards
1910 2011-06-12 11:52:44 <Diablo-D3> they just have extra ram
1911 2011-06-12 11:52:56 <Diablo-D3> and the highest end 7xxx will be shipping with 4 anyhow
1912 2011-06-12 11:53:08 <LURKYMURKY> you still need my binscope results?
1913 2011-06-12 11:53:22 <LURKYMURKY> you yre faster than me, as i see?
1914 2011-06-12 11:53:34 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: thanks for trying
1915 2011-06-12 11:53:42 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: No problem.
1916 2011-06-12 11:54:03 <xtalmath> who is responsible for maintaining the windows binaries?
1917 2011-06-12 11:54:04 <ArdaXi> I have Visual Studio installed, though.
1918 2011-06-12 11:54:23 <ArdaXi> I just don't think I can use it to build Bitcoin without a lot of effort.
1919 2011-06-12 11:54:41 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: yeah, but we dont know what compiler/security settings Bitcoin.org compiled with
1920 2011-06-12 11:54:53 <LURKYMURKY> oh, sorry, I see many checks fail on my computer, too, have no visual studio here...
1921 2011-06-12 11:55:02 nefario has joined
1922 2011-06-12 11:55:06 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: Hm. Need to ask them to include the symbol database with the binary.
1923 2011-06-12 11:55:06 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: im not assigning you that task ;)
1924 2011-06-12 11:55:15 noagendamarket has joined
1925 2011-06-12 11:55:17 <ArdaXi> If they use VS that is.
1926 2011-06-12 11:55:30 <xtalmath> yes, symbol database and compiler settings and version
1927 2011-06-12 11:56:51 <ArdaXi> Attack Surface Analyzer might also be interesting.
1928 2011-06-12 11:57:57 <phantomcircuit> lol
1929 2011-06-12 11:58:08 <phantomcircuit> automated code tools are 99% useless
1930 2011-06-12 11:58:14 <phantomcircuit> they'll find super obvious stuff
1931 2011-06-12 11:58:16 <phantomcircuit> but that's it
1932 2011-06-12 11:58:47 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Of course you know much better than Microsoft.
1933 2011-06-12 11:58:59 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: did you integrate BinScope with VS?
1934 2011-06-12 11:59:19 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, i would hope that most c++ developers can beat the automated tools
1935 2011-06-12 11:59:22 <xtalmath> perhaps thats why it assumes you also have PDB?
1936 2011-06-12 11:59:37 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1937 2011-06-12 11:59:50 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: I'm running it stand-alone.
1938 2011-06-12 12:00:05 <xtalmath> ok
1939 2011-06-12 12:00:34 <ArdaXi> But those checks seem to require the PDB.
1940 2011-06-12 12:00:57 <gavinandresen> The windows binary is built inside a 'gitian' virtual machine. You should be able to reproduce the binary exactly.
1941 2011-06-12 12:01:22 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, ps i doubt you can get the current code to build with vs at all
1942 2011-06-12 12:01:38 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: It was my understanding that it was.
1943 2011-06-12 12:01:47 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, it's not
1944 2011-06-12 12:01:52 <gavinandresen> Current windows is build cross-compiled with mingw toolchain
1945 2011-06-12 12:01:58 <ArdaXi> Ah, okay.
1946 2011-06-12 12:02:12 <ArdaXi> Well there you go xtalmath.
1947 2011-06-12 12:02:23 <gavinandresen> ...using gitian so you can reproduce/verify
1948 2011-06-12 12:02:24 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1949 2011-06-12 12:02:27 <xtalmath> ArdaXi: apparently the first 3 checks dont need PDB: so the precompiled Binary has NONE of Is DEP enabled? Which the tool refers to as itâs NXCheck. Is ASLR enabled? Which the tool refers to as itâs DBCheck. Is SEH checking enabled? Which the tool refers to as itâs SafeSEHCheck.
1950 2011-06-12 12:02:41 <xtalmath> so it seems quite vulnerable
1951 2011-06-12 12:02:54 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: patches welcome
1952 2011-06-12 12:03:05 <gavinandresen> (I don't know nothin about windows, personally)
1953 2011-06-12 12:03:50 <xtalmath> No DEP, no ASLR, no DBCheck, well I dont know which compiler settings are needed, but say MSVC 6 wont have any of those I guess... Ill try to look it up how to enable them...
1954 2011-06-12 12:04:29 F4C3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1955 2011-06-12 12:07:00 <xtalmath> * Stack-based Buffer Overrun Detection (/GS)
1956 2011-06-12 12:07:00 <xtalmath> * Safe Exception Handling (/SafeSEH)
1957 2011-06-12 12:07:00 <xtalmath> * Data Execution Prevention (DEP) Compatibility (/NXCompat)
1958 2011-06-12 12:07:00 <xtalmath> * Image Randomization (/DynamicBase)
1959 2011-06-12 12:07:13 <xtalmath> I think those are compiler flags
1960 2011-06-12 12:07:50 <gavinandresen> ... look like VC++ compiler flags to me (ok, I lied, I know a LITTLE bit about windows....)
1961 2011-06-12 12:08:02 r2k has joined
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1963 2011-06-12 12:09:07 <xtalmath> I wrote about this in the forum a while ago... didnt know binscope back then though
1964 2011-06-12 12:10:43 <xtalmath> we should advise people who want to compile themselves about using these. however we are also telling the exploiters that up till now and hence a lot of users are using binaries with these potential shortcomings...
1965 2011-06-12 12:11:45 <xtalmath> gavinadresen: similarly about the precompiled linux binary, which distribution was it compiled on? (some distributions have their gcc with or without propolis...)
1966 2011-06-12 12:12:48 kish has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1967 2011-06-12 12:14:28 <diki> gavin-is it possible bitcoin to send a duplicate work it might have sent before?
1968 2011-06-12 12:14:33 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1969 2011-06-12 12:14:58 <gavinandresen> diki : you mean from getwork? I don't know.
1970 2011-06-12 12:15:07 <diki> yup getwork
1971 2011-06-12 12:15:57 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, you're wasting your time, microsofts automated tools are significantly worse than the foss ones which have already been applied
1972 2011-06-12 12:16:04 llama has joined
1973 2011-06-12 12:16:04 <gavinandresen> No idea. I try to remain blissfully unaware of most of the mining stuff.
1974 2011-06-12 12:16:04 llama has quit (Changing host)
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1977 2011-06-12 12:16:27 <ArdaXi> phantomcircuit: Right, because Microsoft knows much less about Windows than the F/OSS community.
1978 2011-06-12 12:16:30 <xtalmath> gavinandresen: and if the compiler is VS add #define _CRT_SECURE_CPP_OVERLOAD_STANDARD_NAMES 1 to sources, see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc337897.aspx for more info
1979 2011-06-12 12:16:59 <phantomcircuit> ArdaXi, the checks the compiler preforms have nothing to do with windows
1980 2011-06-12 12:17:08 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: see the gitian build descriptor, and read up on gitian. It creates a reproducible virtual machine with a specific version of everything.
1981 2011-06-12 12:17:12 <xtalmath> gavinandresen: all this time I assume the windows binary was compiled with visual studio but I dont know if thats the case?
1982 2011-06-12 12:17:39 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: It isn't.
1983 2011-06-12 12:17:43 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: no, again, mingw-32
1984 2011-06-12 12:17:52 <xtalmath> ah sorry
1985 2011-06-12 12:18:18 kish has joined
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1987 2011-06-12 12:23:57 <xtalmath> Im not sure how to check if the gcc that came with mingw enables or disables these settings by default, also ASLR is in concert with operating system I think? not sure how that would work
1988 2011-06-12 12:26:21 <xtalmath> I should have read smashing the stack in 2010 from start to end...
1989 2011-06-12 12:26:46 <phantomcircuit> ASLR doesn't have to be in concert with the OS
1990 2011-06-12 12:27:10 <phantomcircuit> the compiler alone can do a lot of that
1991 2011-06-12 12:27:28 <phantomcircuit> what it cant do though is randomize the location of .dll mappings
1992 2011-06-12 12:27:39 vigilyn has joined
1993 2011-06-12 12:27:56 <phantomcircuit> but that's ok because 99% of them explicitly have DEP turned off anyways
1994 2011-06-12 12:28:00 <phantomcircuit> yay windows?
1995 2011-06-12 12:28:07 <MC1984> ive read the tonal bitcoin article 3 times and i still dont know wtf im looking at
1996 2011-06-12 12:28:18 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, ^
1997 2011-06-12 12:28:37 <MC1984> ?
1998 2011-06-12 12:30:07 xelister has joined
1999 2011-06-12 12:30:11 <xelister> Trolololo
2000 2011-06-12 12:30:16 <xelister> buying low and selling high
2001 2011-06-12 12:30:21 * xelister earned just on the masspanic
2002 2011-06-12 12:32:02 <xtalmath> MC1984: quite hilarious how he calls the coins after tuberculosis
2003 2011-06-12 12:33:59 fimp has joined
2004 2011-06-12 12:34:21 ikeakan has joined
2005 2011-06-12 12:34:36 <ikeakan> What GUI toolkit does the official bitcoin client use?
2006 2011-06-12 12:34:44 hachque has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2007 2011-06-12 12:34:44 <xelister> ikeakan: wxWidgets
2008 2011-06-12 12:34:56 <ikeakan> xelister: in C++, right?
2009 2011-06-12 12:37:08 <xtalmath> and also very apparent how he lacks insight and conciseness to not simply say its hexadecimal, with another number between 8 and 9. I seriously doubt a minority exists that uses hexadecimal system AND calls our 10 9, and has a different symbol for 9...
2010 2011-06-12 12:37:25 <xelister> ikeakan: yes
2011 2011-06-12 12:37:54 <ikeakan> xelister: thanks
2012 2011-06-12 12:38:04 <xtalmath> Personally I think the article is a joke, hexa-mixo-decimal *cough cough* TBC
2013 2011-06-12 12:38:08 <gavinandresen> xtalmath: I added a comment that that page should be deleted from the wiki.
2014 2011-06-12 12:38:38 <wumpus> ikeakan: and I'm working on a Qt GUI for it
2015 2011-06-12 12:39:44 <ikeakan> wumpus: I hope you make it very user friendly for newbies
2016 2011-06-12 12:40:47 <wumpus> ikeakan: ideas are always welcome: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15276.0
2017 2011-06-12 12:42:44 <xtalmath> "Iâm guessing the whole point of these tools is to allow some consultants to more easily generate some pretty XML to show managers when these Microsoft employees go to Adobe or whoever and try to get them to fix up their code." from the page where I found the security flags for VS
2018 2011-06-12 12:43:14 <xtalmath> I think that pretty much describes the poor state of software security in general :D
2019 2011-06-12 12:45:39 sanity has joined
2020 2011-06-12 12:47:00 <ikeakan> wumpus: nice!
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2023 2011-06-12 12:50:52 <xelister> wumpus: for bitcoin client?
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2028 2011-06-12 12:55:09 noagendamarket has joined
2029 2011-06-12 12:55:59 <wumpus> xelister: yes
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2047 2011-06-12 13:07:10 <xtalmath> What threads does the bitcoin client have?
2048 2011-06-12 13:07:59 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
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2053 2011-06-12 13:09:35 <phantomcircuit> xtalmath, pthread
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2057 2011-06-12 13:10:14 gasteve_ is now known as gasteve
2058 2011-06-12 13:10:14 minus_ is now known as minus
2059 2011-06-12 13:10:18 netxshar- is now known as netxshare
2060 2011-06-12 13:10:18 SanguineRose_ is now known as SanguineRose
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2063 2011-06-12 13:11:08 <xtalmath> ok, well I actually meant functionally (i.e. a few for mining if enabled, ...)
2064 2011-06-12 13:12:31 wood_ has joined
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2069 2011-06-12 13:14:14 <wumpus> well there's at least a gui thread and network thread, but there can be more (IRC, JSON-API, etc)
2070 2011-06-12 13:14:31 simsalala has joined
2071 2011-06-12 13:16:43 <xtalmath> hmm, I have no experience with model checking, but it seems necessary to model the communicating processes of 2 clients with a communication link in SPIN
2072 2011-06-12 13:17:11 JSharp has joined
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2076 2011-06-12 13:20:04 <xtalmath> if a crafted message can cause deadlock or variants... it would take a while for us to figure out what the problem is if we dont have a descriptive view of the processes that communicate. While if we do we would just cast the message to the model and see how it locks the system.
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2080 2011-06-12 13:25:03 EncRyptO has joined
2081 2011-06-12 13:25:10 <xtalmath> I just thought about this: if the windows client wasnt compiled with VS but mingw, of course BinScope wont congratulate open source propolice presence...
2082 2011-06-12 13:25:32 <phantomcircuit> xtalmath, gui network and rpc
2083 2011-06-12 13:25:38 Wuked has joined
2084 2011-06-12 13:25:50 <xtalmath> phantomcircuit: thx
2085 2011-06-12 13:26:54 BB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2086 2011-06-12 13:27:08 gotQuestion has joined
2087 2011-06-12 13:27:26 <gotQuestion> hi people... can someone help me to get my MAC bitcoin working
2088 2011-06-12 13:27:35 <gotQuestion> it says no connection.. what i am missing
2089 2011-06-12 13:28:10 <MVXA> a real computer? </troll>
2090 2011-06-12 13:28:11 <xtalmath> possibly behind a firewall or on a vpn?
2091 2011-06-12 13:28:35 <xtalmath> it can take a while for me to connect also...
2092 2011-06-12 13:28:52 <gotQuestion> hmm.. i left it for like 30 mins
2093 2011-06-12 13:28:57 <gotQuestion> and still not connected
2094 2011-06-12 13:29:03 <MVXA> are you crunching in a pool? It looks like they are currently being doss'd
2095 2011-06-12 13:29:32 <sneak_> hi
2096 2011-06-12 13:29:39 <gotQuestion> there is a thing call generate coins... do i need to lick on that
2097 2011-06-12 13:29:45 <gotQuestion> i mean click sorry
2098 2011-06-12 13:29:47 <xtalmath> no
2099 2011-06-12 13:29:48 <MVXA> eitherway, this channel is about bitcoin development, as far as i can see and your topic is mining related â¦
2100 2011-06-12 13:30:12 <xtalmath> MVXA hes trying to connect not mine, on a Mac
2101 2011-06-12 13:30:25 <MVXA> GAHR
2102 2011-06-12 13:30:37 <MVXA> beat me, i've read "mining" instead of "working"
2103 2011-06-12 13:31:25 <MVXA> gotQuestion, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes put some of them in your bitcoin.conf as first aid
2104 2011-06-12 13:32:00 <phantomcircuit> gotQuestion, http://bitcoinconsultancy.com/bitcoin-windows.zip
2105 2011-06-12 13:32:09 <phantomcircuit> that will connect immediately
2106 2011-06-12 13:32:29 <gotQuestion> I ma on a MAC
2107 2011-06-12 13:32:59 <MVXA> he is a MAC guy, he writes MAC with CAPSLOCK, he is COOL ⦠did you try to add some nodes in your bitcoin.conf?
2108 2011-06-12 13:33:17 <phantomcircuit> oh
2109 2011-06-12 13:33:37 <phantomcircuit> gotQuestion, in that case you do actually need to specify nodes on the command line when you start bitcoin
2110 2011-06-12 13:33:50 <gotQuestion> ahh,,,
2111 2011-06-12 13:33:50 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
2112 2011-06-12 13:34:01 <sneak_> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2113 2011-06-12 13:34:01 <gribble> Error: ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,," is not a valid command.
2114 2011-06-12 13:34:02 <xtalmath> bitcoin.conf should work also
2115 2011-06-12 13:34:10 <MVXA> <.< â¦
2116 2011-06-12 13:34:12 <MVXA> looks like he is already ignoring me, excellent â¦
2117 2011-06-12 13:34:13 <gotQuestion> i can;t fine the bitcoin.conf file
2118 2011-06-12 13:34:24 <sneak_> gribble: Error: your regular expression is shitty
2119 2011-06-12 13:34:30 <xtalmath> because its decentralized you cant fine it
2120 2011-06-12 13:34:57 <xtalmath> its in the block chain
2121 2011-06-12 13:36:07 <xtalmath> in theory, bitcoin could have used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table#Examples ?
2122 2011-06-12 13:36:20 lebish has joined
2123 2011-06-12 13:36:29 <xtalmath> instead of building its own hash table?
2124 2011-06-12 13:36:35 <Diablo-D3> WOAH
2125 2011-06-12 13:36:41 <Diablo-D3> people write MAC in CAPS?
2126 2011-06-12 13:36:44 <Diablo-D3> that is AWESOME
2127 2011-06-12 13:36:46 lebish is now known as lebish_zz
2128 2011-06-12 13:37:07 <Diablo-D3> at least he didnt use gratuitous "caps"
2129 2011-06-12 13:37:32 <Diablo-D3> I never understood why people thought putting quotes around shit ever made sense
2130 2011-06-12 13:38:01 <Diablo-D3> if its not quote, or its not done for ironic air quotes reasons, dont look like a douchebag
2131 2011-06-12 13:38:05 <xelister> it makes sone "sense"
2132 2011-06-12 13:38:13 <MVXA> marking "irony" â¦
2133 2011-06-12 13:38:24 <xtalmath> how do other DHT's bootstrap p2p? centralized?
2134 2011-06-12 13:38:26 gotQuestion has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2135 2011-06-12 13:38:40 <MVXA> that cool stuff you can let people think their way while telling them the truth about how "smart" they are =D
2136 2011-06-12 13:39:14 <xelister> xtalmath: freenet uses seed nodes and manually added friends
2137 2011-06-12 13:39:15 <xtalmath> or are these general purpouse DHTs to slow to post every 10 minutes?
2138 2011-06-12 13:39:21 <xelister> for example
2139 2011-06-12 13:39:32 <xelister> tor uses centralised directories (listings) of servers
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2144 2011-06-12 13:41:05 <xtalmath> to be honest I dont know how IP adressing works, that actually seems decentralized
2145 2011-06-12 13:41:25 <xelister> to the contrary, IP is totally centraized, same for DNS
2146 2011-06-12 13:41:37 <xelister> usafags hold the most central servers afair ;)
2147 2011-06-12 13:41:44 anarchyx has joined
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2149 2011-06-12 13:42:21 gsathya has joined
2150 2011-06-12 13:42:30 <xtalmath> then my statistical physics teacher lied to us in his informal talk on decentralization and chaos
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2152 2011-06-12 13:42:38 <xtalmath> garh
2153 2011-06-12 13:42:51 <forrestv> xtalmath, a DHT doesn't even apply to bitcoin
2154 2011-06-12 13:42:57 <forrestv> all nodes need to know all blocks
2155 2011-06-12 13:43:09 anarchyx has quit (Client Quit)
2156 2011-06-12 13:43:37 <xtalmath> then how do we adress blocks?
2157 2011-06-12 13:43:52 <forrestv> um, by their hash
2158 2011-06-12 13:44:02 <xtalmath> isnt that then a distributed hash table
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2160 2011-06-12 13:44:04 <forrestv> no
2161 2011-06-12 13:44:08 <xtalmath> why not?
2162 2011-06-12 13:44:19 <xtalmath> the hash is the key into the table
2163 2011-06-12 13:44:24 <forrestv> because it's not 'distributed', it's 'mirrored' over every node
2164 2011-06-12 13:44:53 <xtalmath> I see
2165 2011-06-12 13:45:35 <xtalmath> decentralized hash table is a better term?
2166 2011-06-12 13:45:39 <zid`> IP adresses are basically a binary tree
2167 2011-06-12 13:46:18 EncRyptO is now known as EncryptO
2168 2011-06-12 13:46:29 <forrestv> xtalmath, mirrored hash table :p
2169 2011-06-12 13:47:21 <xtalmath> what part of centralized IP system do we rely on? if IP routing is switched off where do we stand?
2170 2011-06-12 13:47:53 <zid`> isolated
2171 2011-06-12 13:48:02 <zid`> (also, how do you switch off IP routing?)
2172 2011-06-12 13:48:42 <xtalmath> thats my question, is it centralized or not, ... what is the exact service being provided?
2173 2011-06-12 13:48:49 <zid`> allocation
2174 2011-06-12 13:48:52 <zid`> ownership
2175 2011-06-12 13:49:06 <xtalmath> as in having the right to use the adress
2176 2011-06-12 13:49:14 <zid`> think of absolutely any web service
2177 2011-06-12 13:49:23 <zid`> take email
2178 2011-06-12 13:49:40 <zid`> eveyrbody is free to send email, but only some people are able to send email from microsoft.com
2179 2011-06-12 13:49:43 <zid`> nobody can 'shut down email'
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2185 2011-06-12 13:52:27 EncryptO has joined
2186 2011-06-12 13:52:43 <xtalmath> how are IP adresses assigned in a wireless mesh network?
2187 2011-06-12 13:52:55 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3, are you aware of a C++/Java equivalent of C++/CLI?
2188 2011-06-12 13:52:57 <zid`> DHCP
2189 2011-06-12 13:53:05 <luke-jr_> MC1984: did you install a compatible font? if not, you're probably not seeing it right
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2197 2011-06-12 14:00:21 <MC1984> no man its just confusing as fuck
2198 2011-06-12 14:00:32 <MC1984> i have 10 fingers i work in base 10
2199 2011-06-12 14:01:12 <xelister> MC1984: IS luke-jr trolling you with tonal? don't go there :P
2200 2011-06-12 14:01:20 <xelister> use hex like a man
2201 2011-06-12 14:01:23 <xelister> imo
2202 2011-06-12 14:01:24 <luke-jr> MC1984: what a bad reason
2203 2011-06-12 14:01:32 <xelister> I dont see any benefit of tonal over hexa
2204 2011-06-12 14:01:35 <xelister> or octal
2205 2011-06-12 14:01:42 <luke-jr> MC1984: do you actually count on your fingers? and only count? :p
2206 2011-06-12 14:01:55 <MC1984> its like if you found some untouched for thousands of years amazonian tribe, youd find them using this tonal system.....
2207 2011-06-12 14:01:58 <luke-jr> MC1984: and why are you even looking at tonal if you're only interested in decimal?
2208 2011-06-12 14:01:58 <xelister> I have 20 fingers
2209 2011-06-12 14:02:04 <xelister> have you all been to horrible accident
2210 2011-06-12 14:02:14 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2211 2011-06-12 14:02:16 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2212 2011-06-12 14:02:19 <luke-jr> MC1984: tonal is for people who do actual math, not simply count
2213 2011-06-12 14:02:33 <luke-jr> if all you do is count, base 6 is your ideal
2214 2011-06-12 14:02:34 <Namegduf> I have 50 fingers
2215 2011-06-12 14:02:40 <Namegduf> I grew up near a nuclear power station
2216 2011-06-12 14:02:42 <luke-jr> or binary
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2221 2011-06-12 14:06:04 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: c++/cli never made sense
2222 2011-06-12 14:06:36 <devon_hillard> well, a way to have your cake (memory management) and eat it too (selectively disable it)
2223 2011-06-12 14:06:38 BlueMatt has joined
2224 2011-06-12 14:08:38 zamgo has joined
2225 2011-06-12 14:09:07 <Diablo-D3> except explicit memory management is a performance killer
2226 2011-06-12 14:09:24 Phoebus has joined
2227 2011-06-12 14:09:58 <devon_hillard> well, in C++ you can code something like a garbage collector with custom stuff bolted on
2228 2011-06-12 14:10:31 <devon_hillard> in C++/CLI you can rely on a default memory manager and then chose to optimize some places that are too heavy
2229 2011-06-12 14:11:09 Teslah has joined
2230 2011-06-12 14:11:10 * da2ce7 has setup a new channel #bitcoin-gaming
2231 2011-06-12 14:11:15 <Diablo-D3> thats backwards though
2232 2011-06-12 14:11:28 <Diablo-D3> I'd rather have the memory manager work correctly in all instances
2233 2011-06-12 14:11:33 <da2ce7> join if you use your bigassed cards for not just mining.
2234 2011-06-12 14:11:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, explicit memory management is the opposite of a performance killer...
2235 2011-06-12 14:12:03 * ericmock wants to mine for bitcoin in minecraft...
2236 2011-06-12 14:12:16 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: malloc/free kills performance
2237 2011-06-12 14:12:38 <phantomcircuit> uh no it doesn't
2238 2011-06-12 14:12:42 <BlueMatt> Id like to see what jgarzik has to say about that...
2239 2011-06-12 14:12:54 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I coded C for over a decade, dude, trust me on this
2240 2011-06-12 14:12:55 <phantomcircuit> it's slower than stack based allocation
2241 2011-06-12 14:13:02 <phantomcircuit> but it's faster than gc
2242 2011-06-12 14:13:07 <Wayno> ericmock makes a mod texture pack then
2243 2011-06-12 14:13:10 <Diablo-D3> I would have killed for a system like java's
2244 2011-06-12 14:13:13 <Wayno> and each blog is differnet :P
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2253 2011-06-12 14:26:08 <Joric> does complexity increase mean longer transactions as well?
2254 2011-06-12 14:26:15 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
2255 2011-06-12 14:26:25 <phantomcircuit> Joric, no
2256 2011-06-12 14:26:35 <mtrlt> difficulty increase does not increase transaction verification time.
2257 2011-06-12 14:26:47 <phantomcircuit> Joric, the network adjusts every ~2k blocks so that the time between blocks always averages ~10 minutes
2258 2011-06-12 14:27:01 <Joric> got it
2259 2011-06-12 14:28:58 <falafell> is something being worked on to solve this fee issue? if i want to send 0.01btc i have to pay 0.01 fee aswell :S thats quite a lot O_o
2260 2011-06-12 14:29:47 davep has joined
2261 2011-06-12 14:29:59 <wumpus> falafell: yes, it is being changed
2262 2011-06-12 14:30:29 <falafell> wumpus, how will it be changed?
2263 2011-06-12 14:30:36 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2264 2011-06-12 14:30:43 <wumpus> 0.001 afaik
2265 2011-06-12 14:31:24 <falafell> maybe we need a system that adjusts the fee automatically instead of having to release a new client every time
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2275 2011-06-12 14:39:43 <xelister> falafell: that sounds interesting
2276 2011-06-12 14:40:07 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r4a102e486d06 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/header.php: OTCWebsite: add links to wot and book in header - since those are most accessed areas of site. http://tinyurl.com/6kd8xsj
2277 2011-06-12 14:40:15 clojure_ has joined
2278 2011-06-12 14:40:43 <xelister> wumpus: when? released?
2279 2011-06-12 14:41:16 <wumpus> xelister: you can get the source from github and it works, but there hasn't been a release as such
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2281 2011-06-12 14:42:13 taub has left ("Verlassend")
2282 2011-06-12 14:42:24 <Joric> will newer addresses work on the older copy of the wallet? will it receive transactions?
2283 2011-06-12 14:43:07 <Joric> i mean adresses than were generated later on the newer copy
2284 2011-06-12 14:43:13 <Joric> *that
2285 2011-06-12 14:43:43 <ericmock> isn't the basic problem that the fee is a fixed value and not a percentage?
2286 2011-06-12 14:45:33 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
2287 2011-06-12 14:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: most of the time, yes
2288 2011-06-12 14:45:55 <wumpus> no, that isn't the problem, the fee is for the space your transaction takes in the block chain, and that doesn't depend on the amount of coins
2289 2011-06-12 14:46:09 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: addresses don't even have to be in a wallet used by a bitcoin that is currently connected to the p2p network to receive anything
2290 2011-06-12 14:46:50 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: the receiving txn uses your pubkey from the address so you can connect at a later time and retrieve them
2291 2011-06-12 14:47:32 <Joric> jrmithdobbs, even if they were not used before?
2292 2011-06-12 14:47:38 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: correct
2293 2011-06-12 14:48:36 <ericmock> wumpus: ah, I see... but it does seem like a floating (instead of hardcoded) fee might be good at least until people quit viewing btcs in terms of other currencies...
2294 2011-06-12 14:49:56 andzej has joined
2295 2011-06-12 14:52:11 <diki> someone on the forums is spamming PMs with a new market...
2296 2011-06-12 14:52:18 <diki> sorry, i am not clicking the link...
2297 2011-06-12 14:52:20 <wumpus> ericmock: that'd be very hard to implement because all the clients would have to agree on what the minimum fee of the (minute/hour/day) is
2298 2011-06-12 14:52:28 <diki> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22009
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2300 2011-06-12 14:55:00 <ericmock> wumpus: could the fee not be like the difficulty?
2301 2011-06-12 14:55:30 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: stop doing things that are counterproductive to the network and you'll never have to pay a fee (currently)
2302 2011-06-12 14:55:32 <wumpus> ericmock: but what'd be the argument to have the fee depend on the difficulty?
2303 2011-06-12 14:55:41 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: you're seriously worrying about something that's not an issue
2304 2011-06-12 14:55:51 <ericmock> jrmithdobbs: I'm not paying any fees
2305 2011-06-12 14:56:14 <ericmock> you just have a perception problem that needs to be fixed...
2306 2011-06-12 14:56:36 <jrmithdobbs> oh you're that guy
2307 2011-06-12 14:56:38 <ericmock> wumpus: I'm not saying the fee would depend on the difficulty...
2308 2011-06-12 14:56:44 <jrmithdobbs> drop the damned fee thing already, it's not an issue
2309 2011-06-12 14:57:18 <ericmock> please /ignore me then
2310 2011-06-12 14:58:49 ar4s has joined
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2312 2011-06-12 14:59:52 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: is blkmond gplv2? your LICENSE file is ambigious to my reading since it's not part of pushpool directly
2313 2011-06-12 15:01:11 andzej has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2314 2011-06-12 15:04:30 <Optimo> 1300006 lol
2315 2011-06-12 15:05:34 <Optimo> 130035
2316 2011-06-12 15:05:40 gwillen_ is now known as gwillen
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2318 2011-06-12 15:09:32 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Are you ever going to drop the perception that fees only apply to transactions that are counter-productive?
2319 2011-06-12 15:09:46 <jrmithdobbs> not until proved otherwise
2320 2011-06-12 15:10:06 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Okay. I can't see how all transactions can be counter-productive, but up to you.
2321 2011-06-12 15:10:24 <jrmithdobbs> all transactions don't require a fee
2322 2011-06-12 15:10:26 <jrmithdobbs> that simple
2323 2011-06-12 15:10:44 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: It's encouraged.
2324 2011-06-12 15:10:51 <ArdaXi> And soon enough, they will.
2325 2011-06-12 15:10:57 stahi has joined
2326 2011-06-12 15:10:59 <ArdaXi> It's planned, remember?
2327 2011-06-12 15:11:28 SomeoneWeird has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2328 2011-06-12 15:12:01 Spyrorocks`` has joined
2329 2011-06-12 15:12:15 <ArdaXi> The idea that every transaction including recently-minted coins is counter-productive is ridiculous.
2330 2011-06-12 15:12:53 Txyru` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2331 2011-06-12 15:13:09 <ius> luke-jr: ping
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2341 2011-06-12 15:22:38 m0m0 has joined
2342 2011-06-12 15:23:13 RyanSullivan has joined
2343 2011-06-12 15:23:15 <RyanSullivan> hey
2344 2011-06-12 15:24:57 HEx1 has joined
2345 2011-06-12 15:25:33 <RyanSullivan> I have a php webserver, ut i dont have execute permissions
2346 2011-06-12 15:25:48 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2347 2011-06-12 15:26:23 theboos has joined
2348 2011-06-12 15:26:59 <RyanSullivan> to have have my php code send and recieve bitcoins I need to run the bitcoin daemon on my server?
2349 2011-06-12 15:27:07 <RyanSullivan> thats the only way?
2350 2011-06-12 15:27:12 r2k has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2351 2011-06-12 15:28:53 Teslah has joined
2352 2011-06-12 15:30:54 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
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2356 2011-06-12 15:36:01 <forrestv> RyanSullivan, you can use mybitcoin or mtgox's api
2357 2011-06-12 15:36:36 <ezl> i'd like to get some feedback on a paper trading app i'm working on. still pretty raw and a lot of work to be done, but i'd appreciate some feedback: papertrading.hellobitcoin.com:32721
2358 2011-06-12 15:36:51 LobsterMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2359 2011-06-12 15:38:58 <ultrafluf> why is there a port on that
2360 2011-06-12 15:39:01 <ultrafluf> o.O
2361 2011-06-12 15:39:52 <ezl> just developing it
2362 2011-06-12 15:40:19 <ezl> not production yet, so its not really deployed
2363 2011-06-12 15:41:03 LobsterMan has joined
2364 2011-06-12 15:43:11 <ezl> awesome, i just broke it
2365 2011-06-12 15:45:57 <eps> ;;bc,stats
2366 2011-06-12 15:45:59 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130308 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 731 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 6 hours, 59 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 825450.30274911
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2380 2011-06-12 16:02:45 <chloe_> So, help me grasp this one. I receive a transaction. I have to validate it. I check out the input sources, and find their blocks. I go to the block header and pick up their merkle roots. How do I get the relevant Merkle branch now, to validate it?
2381 2011-06-12 16:02:56 <chloe_> I'm not sure if this is a -dev question, btw.
2382 2011-06-12 16:03:00 ipa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2383 2011-06-12 16:03:19 <forrestv> chloe_, if the transaction is in the block ... you don't need to look at the branch to validate it
2384 2011-06-12 16:03:35 <forrestv> this is probably the most appropriate channel :)
2385 2011-06-12 16:04:00 <chloe_> So I have the full block saved in my disk? I thought I only had the block headers.
2386 2011-06-12 16:04:36 <forrestv> chloe_, nope, clients have the full blocks
2387 2011-06-12 16:04:49 <forrestv> though you're right - you'd need the merkle branch if you only had the headers
2388 2011-06-12 16:05:15 m0m0 has joined
2389 2011-06-12 16:05:29 <chloe_> But if we fast forward 40 years from now, saving full blocks would accumulate too much space, wouldn't it?
2390 2011-06-12 16:05:48 <chloe_> I mean, it's already 200MB atm.
2391 2011-06-12 16:05:58 <chloe_> And bitcoin is just starting to boot.
2392 2011-06-12 16:06:16 jmpespxoreax has joined
2393 2011-06-12 16:06:41 <tcatm_> cosurgi: which script?
2394 2011-06-12 16:09:32 <elly> chloe_: you can prune them by just remembering the merkle hash of all the transactions
2395 2011-06-12 16:10:09 <chloe_> elly: yeah that's what I'm asking. in that case, how am I supposed to get the merkle branch for a transaction I'm interested in, so that I can validate it with the root?
2396 2011-06-12 16:12:01 <elly> hrm, I am not sure
2397 2011-06-12 16:12:04 <cosurgi> tcatm_: I think the one that continously keeps updating prices?
2398 2011-06-12 16:12:46 simkiss has joined
2399 2011-06-12 16:12:47 <tcatm_> cosurgi: on bitcoincharts?
2400 2011-06-12 16:12:47 <Theo`> chloe_: you keep the current merkle branches and prune those transactions that are burried under enough successor transactions
2401 2011-06-12 16:12:48 <roconnor_> the idea is that the bitcoin network protocol will be extended one day to provide answers to chloe_'s question.
2402 2011-06-12 16:12:51 <cosurgi> tcatm_: yes
2403 2011-06-12 16:12:53 <roconnor_> so I'm told
2404 2011-06-12 16:12:59 roconnor_ is now known as roconnor
2405 2011-06-12 16:13:01 <tcatm_> cosurgi: I'll replace it soon
2406 2011-06-12 16:13:04 <cosurgi> tcatm_: ok :)
2407 2011-06-12 16:13:08 bitcoiner has joined
2408 2011-06-12 16:13:38 <cosurgi> tcatm_: how about setting limit on plot of market depth? I think that you are already doing this for mtgox. Can you do this also on bitomat?
2409 2011-06-12 16:14:01 <chloe_> roconnor: oh!
2410 2011-06-12 16:14:09 <cosurgi> tcatm_: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/bitomatPLN/accumulated_orderbook.png
2411 2011-06-12 16:14:12 <cosurgi> tcatm_: this one I mean
2412 2011-06-12 16:14:15 <chloe_> roconnor: so atm everyone is keeping the full block
2413 2011-06-12 16:14:29 <tcatm_> cosurgi: It's done on all markets, but the algorithm sucks. I hope to replace it with an interactive javascript chart someday
2414 2011-06-12 16:14:31 <chloe_> roconnor: and in the future there will be support for "hey give me the merkle branch for transaction X"
2415 2011-06-12 16:15:06 <roconnor> yes; to be a strong peers you will need the full block, but one day we will have clients (and maybe weak peers).
2416 2011-06-12 16:15:15 <roconnor> chloe_: that is my understanding
2417 2011-06-12 16:15:34 <chloe_> I understand
2418 2011-06-12 16:15:47 <cosurgi> tcatm_: hmm. I see. what is the algorithm? could you take highest big or lowest ask, then multiply it by 0.5 and 1.5, and use it as limits?
2419 2011-06-12 16:16:01 <tcatm_> cosurgi: it's already something like that
2420 2011-06-12 16:16:16 twobitcoins_ is now known as twobitcoins
2421 2011-06-12 16:16:39 tcatm_ is now known as tcatm
2422 2011-06-12 16:16:40 <cosurgi> tcatm_: ok.. so it' just doesn't work for bitmat
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2426 2011-06-12 16:19:01 <chloe_> Another question. This time a bit more basic. I'm a bitcoin client and I'm accepting transactions from the internet. My job is to validate each one of them and forward them to the rest of the network. What happens if I find an incorrect/malicious transaction?
2427 2011-06-12 16:19:22 <chloe_> I just *don't* forward it?
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2430 2011-06-12 16:20:32 <roconnor> chloe_: I presume that happens, but haven't checked for sure
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2434 2011-06-12 16:21:53 <xtalmath> If in the future normal clients do not verify each transaction... it will have to ask server nodes to return all transactions involving their bitcoin accounts? anonymity is not binary, this is a great decrease in anonymity no?
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2437 2011-06-12 16:24:01 <jgarzik> chloe_: correct
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2439 2011-06-12 16:25:50 <chloe_> jgarzik: So let's say I forward it. And a miner gets it. It's now HIS job to validate it. And if he doesn't and he mines a block with the incorrect transaction. It's the job of the rest of the network to reject the block, right?
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2443 2011-06-12 16:27:03 <jgarzik> chloe_: everyone (excl. SPV clients like bitcoinj) validates TXs and blocks. if they don't validate, they are not relayed to others.
2444 2011-06-12 16:27:18 <jgarzik> chloe_: invalid stuff just self-selects itself off the network
2445 2011-06-12 16:27:49 cronopio has joined
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2447 2011-06-12 16:28:25 <chloe_> Aha
2448 2011-06-12 16:28:40 <lianj> jgarzik: iirc bitjoinj doesnt even check signatures atm
2449 2011-06-12 16:29:00 <lianj> oh excl. ..
2450 2011-06-12 16:29:02 fpgaminer has joined
2451 2011-06-12 16:29:38 <roconnor> It is interesting that you can trust blocks without checking signature by trusting that no one will go through the effort of building long chains on invalid transactions.
2452 2011-06-12 16:30:16 <roconnor> signature checking is the most expensive part of block verification.
2453 2011-06-12 16:30:35 <roconnor> I can understand why bitcoinj might not want to do that.
2454 2011-06-12 16:31:20 <chloe_> So bitcoinj is just blindly accepting transactions and tries to mine on them? Can't you just ddos bitcoinj by constantly advertising fake transactions?
2455 2011-06-12 16:31:25 <xtalmath> is blockexplorer down?
2456 2011-06-12 16:31:35 <roconnor> does bitcoinj mine?
2457 2011-06-12 16:31:43 <ArdaXi> It can't mine.
2458 2011-06-12 16:31:50 <chloe_> Oh!
2459 2011-06-12 16:31:52 <roconnor> :)
2460 2011-06-12 16:31:57 <ArdaXi> Not that bitcoinj is a client, but even if it were, it couldn't mine.
2461 2011-06-12 16:32:00 <roconnor> it is quite important for miners to verify txs
2462 2011-06-12 16:32:02 <chloe_> I thought it was a miner, I'm sorry.
2463 2011-06-12 16:32:17 <ArdaXi> bitcoinj is a client library
2464 2011-06-12 16:32:17 <lianj> while were at this topic, why was https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/e071a3f6c06f41068ad17134189a4ac3073ef76b/script.cpp#L834 necessary? whats the benefit of putting the outpoint script there for the hash? the outpoints tx hash and index is in that data already
2465 2011-06-12 16:32:33 <chloe_> It's that google 20% project, right?
2466 2011-06-12 16:32:35 <xtalmath> whats the current block? blockexplorer is down for me
2467 2011-06-12 16:32:52 <ArdaXi> chloe_: Yes.
2468 2011-06-12 16:32:58 <ArdaXi> ;;bc,blocks
2469 2011-06-12 16:32:59 <gribble> 130317
2470 2011-06-12 16:34:56 <chloe_> That's from bitcoinj's site: "It does not store a full copy of the block chain, rather, it stores what it needs in order to verify transactions with the aid of an untrusted peer node. "
2471 2011-06-12 16:35:24 <chloe_> Doesn't that basically say that it stores only the block header, and gets the merkle branch through an untrusted peer node?
2472 2011-06-12 16:35:36 mosi has quit (sjopping!~mos@dongs.dtegaming.com|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2473 2011-06-12 16:35:44 <chloe_> Or is that what it hopes to do and it's not yet implemented?
2474 2011-06-12 16:36:11 <xtalmath> that should say trusted peer node... untrusted implies that it is resistant to untrustworthy peer nodes.
2475 2011-06-12 16:36:18 <lianj> any ideas on the SignatureHash requirement of the outpoint script?
2476 2011-06-12 16:36:37 <ArdaXi> xtalmath: It is, to a certain extent.
2477 2011-06-12 16:36:43 <chloe_> xtalmath: I think that's intended.
2478 2011-06-12 16:36:46 gsathya has joined
2479 2011-06-12 16:36:55 <chloe_> Since there are no trusted peer nodes by definition.
2480 2011-06-12 16:37:07 <ArdaXi> chloe_: Unless you run one yourself, for example.
2481 2011-06-12 16:37:09 <xtalmath> that is up to the user to trust
2482 2011-06-12 16:37:12 <roconnor> lianj: I'm looking at it
2483 2011-06-12 16:37:13 <ArdaXi> Or you have good reason to trust it.
2484 2011-06-12 16:37:28 <lianj> roconnor: thanks :)
2485 2011-06-12 16:37:46 Stellar has joined
2486 2011-06-12 16:37:47 Stellar has quit (2!~Stellar@110.137.123.54|Client Quit)
2487 2011-06-12 16:37:52 <lianj> roconnor: the function stays untouched since sathosi wrote it
2488 2011-06-12 16:38:24 <roconnor> lianj: but my understanding is that the output script of the input reference is put in the input, not any of the outputs of the current transaction.
2489 2011-06-12 16:38:33 Stellar has joined
2490 2011-06-12 16:38:33 Stellar has quit (2!~Stellar@110.137.123.54|Client Quit)
2491 2011-06-12 16:38:41 <roconnor> lianj: so it isn't as you say. This output script wouldn't be part of the hash if it weren't put in.
2492 2011-06-12 16:39:00 amiller has joined
2493 2011-06-12 16:39:23 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2494 2011-06-12 16:39:36 lumos is now known as bitch_annel
2495 2011-06-12 16:39:44 Titeuf_87 has joined
2496 2011-06-12 16:39:59 Baksch has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2497 2011-06-12 16:40:18 BlueMatt has joined
2498 2011-06-12 16:40:46 <lianj> yes. thats what i mean. but why do we need to do this. the output hash and index is in the data for signaturehash already. just makes implementing it harder
2499 2011-06-12 16:41:02 bitch_annel has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2500 2011-06-12 16:41:17 <roconnor> ah
2501 2011-06-12 16:41:27 Stellar has joined
2502 2011-06-12 16:41:32 <roconnor> ya, I don't know what attack this is meant to prevent
2503 2011-06-12 16:41:39 RenaKunisaki has joined
2504 2011-06-12 16:41:48 <roconnor> it took me a while to get this right in my code too
2505 2011-06-12 16:41:55 <lianj> also the wiki on transactions states the singaturehash is on a simplified version of the tx, which this requirement makes it a little untrue
2506 2011-06-12 16:42:07 <lianj> roconnor: hehe yea me too :/
2507 2011-06-12 16:43:11 <roconnor> lianj: I thought the input script and the output script were both put into the script
2508 2011-06-12 16:43:19 <roconnor> but it turns out that it is just the output script
2509 2011-06-12 16:44:02 <lianj> yea, because at the time of making the signaturehash for signing we dont have the script_sig yet :)
2510 2011-06-12 16:44:04 <roconnor> worst was that the input script sometimes just contains a signature, which I was filter out, so my code worked on some transactions but not others. :D
2511 2011-06-12 16:44:21 <lianj> hehe :)
2512 2011-06-12 16:45:16 llama has joined
2513 2011-06-12 16:45:49 <chloe_> Is there a HACKING file or something for bitcoin? The code confuses me (for example, crypto functions are in script.cpp).
2514 2011-06-12 16:45:53 <citiz3n> can anyone help me get tor running properly?
2515 2011-06-12 16:46:03 <citiz3n> it's been years since ive used it and it seems to have changed quite a bit
2516 2011-06-12 16:46:12 Cusipzzz has joined
2517 2011-06-12 16:46:30 <xtalmath> citiz3n: easiest is to download vidalia bundle
2518 2011-06-12 16:46:36 <citiz3n> did that
2519 2011-06-12 16:46:37 <xtalmath> sudo apt-get install vidalia
2520 2011-06-12 16:46:46 <citiz3n> running windows here
2521 2011-06-12 16:46:48 * roconnor tries to imagine an attack if the outscript were not signed
2522 2011-06-12 16:46:51 <lianj> roconnor: well after all, it works now, but its just a weird requirement. could have been simpler, or at least we should know which attack this is supposed to prevent
2523 2011-06-12 16:46:51 <xtalmath> is it running? green onion?
2524 2011-06-12 16:46:58 <citiz3n> running, yes
2525 2011-06-12 16:47:04 <citiz3n> how to configure browser to go through it though
2526 2011-06-12 16:47:12 <citiz3n> doesn't show me any proxy info
2527 2011-06-12 16:47:17 <citiz3n> except "control" proxy info
2528 2011-06-12 16:47:30 <xtalmath> then use proxy in bitcoin: 127.0.0.1 port 9050
2529 2011-06-12 16:47:41 <xtalmath> browser or bitcoin?
2530 2011-06-12 16:47:52 <xtalmath> my browser uses torbutton
2531 2011-06-12 16:47:52 <citiz3n> wanted to set it up with my browser
2532 2011-06-12 16:48:01 <citiz3n> doesn't work with latest firefox
2533 2011-06-12 16:48:08 <citiz3n> i will try disabling the authentication maybe that will make it work
2534 2011-06-12 16:48:09 DavidSJ has joined
2535 2011-06-12 16:48:11 <xtalmath> to be honest not sure if thats safe to mix with vidalia though
2536 2011-06-12 16:48:51 <diki> vidalia?is that a new type of viagra?
2537 2011-06-12 16:49:01 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2538 2011-06-12 16:49:03 <roconnor> lianj: oh I see what you are saying now. the outscript is actually part of the hash used to identify the tx.
2539 2011-06-12 16:49:23 <roconnor> lianj: I'm a bit slow
2540 2011-06-12 16:51:38 <lianj> yea, thats why i though the 'simplified version of the tx for a signatureHash' was just the other scriptSig's of the input blanked out, like the 2 lines before 834 are doing
2541 2011-06-12 16:51:47 <lianj> *thought
2542 2011-06-12 16:54:43 <roconnor> lianj: heh, now I'm quite confused.
2543 2011-06-12 16:54:49 terracotta has quit (Changing host)
2544 2011-06-12 16:54:49 terracotta has joined
2545 2011-06-12 16:54:57 <lianj> :D sorry
2546 2011-06-12 16:55:03 <roconnor> lianj: I don't understand the filtering of the signatures
2547 2011-06-12 16:55:16 Trawlen has joined
2548 2011-06-12 16:55:30 <Trawlen> http://bitlists.co.cc/new/ Feedback?
2549 2011-06-12 16:56:00 m0m0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2550 2011-06-12 16:56:13 <roconnor> how can a signature appear in the output transaction that is being hashed and used to verify the signature?
2551 2011-06-12 16:56:45 <diki> <Trawlen> http://bitlists.co.cc/new/ Feedback?<- feedback? Hide your PHPmyAdmin
2552 2011-06-12 16:56:51 <lianj> roconnor: wait a bitcoinj comment explains it quite well..
2553 2011-06-12 16:57:07 <Trawlen> diki: when im done developing, sure.
2554 2011-06-12 16:57:19 <roconnor> lianj: heh, I was so satified to finally get that impelement I didn't stop to think about what is going on.
2555 2011-06-12 16:59:16 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Light travels faster then sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak)
2556 2011-06-12 16:59:29 <lianj> that plus the previous link above helped me figure it out http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Transaction.java#332
2557 2011-06-12 16:59:52 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: does 0.3.23rc1 have same getwork problem as 0.3.22, on Windows?
2558 2011-06-12 17:00:50 Moredread has joined
2559 2011-06-12 17:00:51 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2560 2011-06-12 17:00:58 <Optimo> mtgox frozen or somethin
2561 2011-06-12 17:01:18 <roconnor> lianj: I don't get it
2562 2011-06-12 17:01:29 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no way to test here, sipa, did you pull latest makefile.linux-mingw from my crosscompile repo into gitian inputs before building?
2563 2011-06-12 17:01:43 chloe_ has quit (Quit: aq)
2564 2011-06-12 17:01:50 <Trawlen> mtgox - Too many connections
2565 2011-06-12 17:02:01 <lianj> roconnor: i dont get why we need to do this too :)
2566 2011-06-12 17:02:18 D0han_ has joined
2567 2011-06-12 17:02:25 sytse_ has joined
2568 2011-06-12 17:02:32 <roconnor> lianj: I mean I don't get why signatures are filtered from the output script.
2569 2011-06-12 17:02:41 <falafell> so i downloaded the new beta .23rc1, this 0.0005 fee is for every transaction?
2570 2011-06-12 17:02:49 <roconnor> lianj: it seems like it would be impossible for them to get in the output script to begin with.
2571 2011-06-12 17:03:54 <lianj> roconnor: its the output script/program of the connected/previous tx
2572 2011-06-12 17:04:28 <lianj> i'm afk for an hour..
2573 2011-06-12 17:04:42 <roconnor> ok
2574 2011-06-12 17:04:44 <roconnor> thx
2575 2011-06-12 17:06:08 <jgarzik> falafell: free transactions are always supported
2576 2011-06-12 17:06:33 <jgarzik> falafell: for more details see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15533.0 and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
2577 2011-06-12 17:06:34 <falafell> yea i read you wrote that, but i'd have to use bitcoind to do that i guess?
2578 2011-06-12 17:06:40 Raccoon` has joined
2579 2011-06-12 17:06:46 <falafell> *reading*
2580 2011-06-12 17:07:07 <jgarzik> falafell: That applies to bitcoin[.exe] or bitcoind[.exe].
2581 2011-06-12 17:07:44 flok99 has joined
2582 2011-06-12 17:08:14 <diki> so soon, after a block is cut to 0btc per block, what will motivate people into mining?
2583 2011-06-12 17:09:10 <falafell> jgarzik, so if i add that node i won't get the fee popup? that simple?
2584 2011-06-12 17:09:12 <jgarzik> diki: transaction fees
2585 2011-06-12 17:09:24 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2586 2011-06-12 17:09:27 <jgarzik> falafell: I don't understand your question. "add that node"?
2587 2011-06-12 17:09:28 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
2588 2011-06-12 17:09:28 <diki> o really, and if i set them to 0?
2589 2011-06-12 17:09:43 <ArdaXi> diki: Your transaction won't get into any blocks.
2590 2011-06-12 17:09:50 <ArdaXi> We've had this discussion already.
2591 2011-06-12 17:09:54 <jgarzik> diki: in the future? your transactions will take forever to get into a block. you pay for priority.
2592 2011-06-12 17:09:57 ooo_ has joined
2593 2011-06-12 17:10:12 <diki> and how many blocks before we are at 0 btc
2594 2011-06-12 17:10:22 <ArdaXi> diki Roughly 100 years
2595 2011-06-12 17:10:30 <falafell> jgarzik, question is, if i do -addnode with the ip from the wiki, it wont ask for fees?
2596 2011-06-12 17:10:39 <diki> but if at block 210k the block is worth 25btc
2597 2011-06-12 17:10:42 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: I don't think there's a specific node for 0 fees.
2598 2011-06-12 17:10:43 <diki> then it will be much sooner
2599 2011-06-12 17:10:44 Jkessler has joined
2600 2011-06-12 17:10:46 <jgarzik> falafell: fees have nothing to do with -addnode
2601 2011-06-12 17:10:51 <ArdaXi> diki: Er?
2602 2011-06-12 17:10:59 <ArdaXi> diki: It's calculated.
2603 2011-06-12 17:11:00 <jgarzik> ArdaXi: you meant to direct that to falafell ?
2604 2011-06-12 17:11:07 <ArdaXi> Err, yeah.
2605 2011-06-12 17:11:14 Cablesaurus has joined
2606 2011-06-12 17:11:14 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
2607 2011-06-12 17:11:14 Cablesaurus has joined
2608 2011-06-12 17:11:17 r2k has joined
2609 2011-06-12 17:11:23 <falafell> hmm
2610 2011-06-12 17:11:36 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: Fees could have /something/ to do with addnode, if you know a fast miner that doesn't charge fees, you can connect directly to it.
2611 2011-06-12 17:11:42 <ArdaXi> Increase your chances.
2612 2011-06-12 17:11:51 <falafell> i ddon't get it, how do i make fee-less transactions if i don't mind to wait?
2613 2011-06-12 17:11:53 <jgarzik> ArdaXi: yes, but none such exist, so that is all theory
2614 2011-06-12 17:12:03 <jgarzik> falafell: don't set -paytxfee
2615 2011-06-12 17:12:07 <ArdaXi> The FTRP charges much lower fees though.
2616 2011-06-12 17:12:17 <jgarzik> falafell: if you previously set it, use -paytxfee=0
2617 2011-06-12 17:12:23 <jgarzik> ArdaXi: FTRP?
2618 2011-06-12 17:12:28 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: That will still trigger the anti-spam rules (and the priority rule) right?
2619 2011-06-12 17:12:30 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2620 2011-06-12 17:12:33 <ArdaXi> jgarzik: Free Transaction Relay Policy
2621 2011-06-12 17:12:39 flok99 is now known as flok
2622 2011-06-12 17:12:54 * BlueMatt thinks he should update feefix branch to include a fee option at send time, instead of just more fee options in options dialog...
2623 2011-06-12 17:13:42 sytse_ is now known as sytse
2624 2011-06-12 17:14:01 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
2625 2011-06-12 17:14:51 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I would think ideal UI would be to calculate recommended fee, if any, and add that to the TX. Then present a checkbox "pay recommended fee?" that is checked. Include some text indicating delays, if unchecked.
2626 2011-06-12 17:14:58 <jgarzik> grey out if calc'd fee is zero
2627 2011-06-12 17:15:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well Id have to do recommended fee first...
2628 2011-06-12 17:15:09 <jgarzik> at send time
2629 2011-06-12 17:15:17 <BlueMatt> but yea, that should be end goal for fee stuff
2630 2011-06-12 17:15:47 <BlueMatt> first, sipa's prio thing imo, then use that to guess based on previous fees in last x blocks
2631 2011-06-12 17:15:52 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: i'm not so sure that the commitTX stuff though
2632 2011-06-12 17:16:11 <BlueMatt> really? that has been a requested feature about the whole fee stuff
2633 2011-06-12 17:16:19 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: BetterFeeUI has some useful stuff, some interesting stuff, and some stuff that definitely wanted discussion on the forum/list first :)
2634 2011-06-12 17:16:28 <BlueMatt> oh, absolutely
2635 2011-06-12 17:16:38 <BlueMatt> I didnt expect it to be merged as-is
2636 2011-06-12 17:16:41 <BlueMatt> not by far
2637 2011-06-12 17:16:47 theorbtwo has joined
2638 2011-06-12 17:16:52 <jgarzik> somebody suggested it for 0.3.23 in email
2639 2011-06-12 17:16:58 <BlueMatt> (but I posted patch first, and no one commented, so I posted pull...and still no comments)
2640 2011-06-12 17:16:59 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2641 2011-06-12 17:17:04 <BlueMatt> well sipa wanted parts of it, not all as-is
2642 2011-06-12 17:17:22 <BlueMatt> god this hotel wifi is so messed up that it works better via tor...wtf?
2643 2011-06-12 17:17:28 gsathya has joined
2644 2011-06-12 17:17:40 <diki> why do you use tor in the first place?
2645 2011-06-12 17:17:47 <diki> in a hotel
2646 2011-06-12 17:18:01 <BlueMatt> dunno, its having all kinds of connection drop problems when not using a proxy
2647 2011-06-12 17:18:11 <BlueMatt> and I dont happen to have a good proxy available that I trust, so tor it is
2648 2011-06-12 17:18:13 <io_error> BlueMatt: Are you in China?
2649 2011-06-12 17:18:22 <BlueMatt> no, portugal
2650 2011-06-12 17:18:32 <BlueMatt> its just really shitty hotel wifi for some reason
2651 2011-06-12 17:18:43 <diki> why are you there lol?
2652 2011-06-12 17:18:54 <BlueMatt> it doesnt seem to like too many connections, it prefers proxies...
2653 2011-06-12 17:19:02 <BlueMatt> uh...vacation?
2654 2011-06-12 17:19:14 <diki> switch the hotel then
2655 2011-06-12 17:19:30 <BlueMatt> for wifi? tor works fine
2656 2011-06-12 17:19:36 <diki> so wait, you are in Europe?
2657 2011-06-12 17:19:54 <BlueMatt> last time I checked portugal was in europe...might have changed in the last couple days though
2658 2011-06-12 17:21:06 <jgarzik> anyone on Windows, who can test mining with bitcoind? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15533.0 There was a problem with getwork+Windows in 0.3.22, and I need someone to test and see if problem still exists.
2659 2011-06-12 17:21:24 <jgarzik> I need to write a blog post about tor
2660 2011-06-12 17:21:25 Astrohacker has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2661 2011-06-12 17:21:35 <BlueMatt> why?
2662 2011-06-12 17:21:39 <BlueMatt> you hate it?
2663 2011-06-12 17:21:52 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2664 2011-06-12 17:21:53 TommyBoy3G has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2665 2011-06-12 17:21:59 <diki> you are in luck jgarzik
2666 2011-06-12 17:22:02 <diki> i am a windows user
2667 2011-06-12 17:22:14 <jgarzik> even with Tor, your network activity still "looks like bitcoin" network traffic. So it's not anonymous as people think. If you are sending TX's over Tor, timing attacks can still find you.
2668 2011-06-12 17:22:26 <BlueMatt> yep, very true
2669 2011-06-12 17:22:38 <diki> then make it very false
2670 2011-06-12 17:22:46 <jgarzik> Tor cannot hide the size and timing of your unencrypted network packets
2671 2011-06-12 17:22:56 <BlueMatt> tor is good-ish, but if you want to be anonymous you still have to work at it not just flip the tor switch
2672 2011-06-12 17:22:59 <ArdaXi> You can run Bitcoin in a sort of darknet mode to alleviate this.
2673 2011-06-12 17:23:04 pogden has joined
2674 2011-06-12 17:23:33 <ArdaXi> Delete your addr.dat, remove every form of seeding and use something like http://cakem.net/ to only connect with trusted peers.
2675 2011-06-12 17:23:51 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
2676 2011-06-12 17:23:58 <falafell> jgarzik, did the dev team look/consider running it on i2p?
2677 2011-06-12 17:24:15 <falafell> which is perfect for p2p
2678 2011-06-12 17:24:27 <BlueMatt> I wish tor had support for sending random-sized packets at random times in such a way as to not harm network built in, though I suppose you could set up a path through closest node and send a ping manually
2679 2011-06-12 17:24:45 <BlueMatt> (or can you do manual path creation?)
2680 2011-06-12 17:24:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: that won't help. you basically need a constant stream of noise
2681 2011-06-12 17:25:09 <BlueMatt> well if you make them often enough, it is a constant stream of noise ;)
2682 2011-06-12 17:25:45 nkohari has joined
2683 2011-06-12 17:25:50 <jgarzik> not really... anything beyond constant packet timing + equal packet size on network gives away some information
2684 2011-06-12 17:26:01 <jgarzik> obviously it gets harder, the more faux-noise you add, but still
2685 2011-06-12 17:26:05 <nkohari> anyone else having trouble with mtgox's websocket server?
2686 2011-06-12 17:26:39 <nkohari> i'm just getting connection reset by peer each time i try to connect, but it was working ~15min ago
2687 2011-06-12 17:26:45 <BlueMatt> well imo its too impossible if you add enough faux-noise...esp if you make packet sizes realistic enough to hide (ie mostly mtu sized and then a ton of random stuff to hide stuff that isnt mtu)
2688 2011-06-12 17:26:53 Astrohacker has joined
2689 2011-06-12 17:26:55 <falafell> mtgox trading has stopped for the past hour or so...?
2690 2011-06-12 17:27:04 <diki> stopped as in?
2691 2011-06-12 17:27:08 <BlueMatt> it comes and goes
2692 2011-06-12 17:27:12 <falafell> last transaction 45min ago
2693 2011-06-12 17:28:18 Stellar has joined
2694 2011-06-12 17:28:50 vigilyn has joined
2695 2011-06-12 17:29:59 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt, how are things?
2696 2011-06-12 17:30:10 has joined
2697 2011-06-12 17:30:32 <BlueMatt> devrandom: good on vacation atm and was just about to walk out the door...best way is to leave a later tell with gribble
2698 2011-06-12 17:30:35 <diki> ...23 doesnt seem to update the blockchain
2699 2011-06-12 17:30:43 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2700 2011-06-12 17:31:17 dvide has joined
2701 2011-06-12 17:31:27 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
2702 2011-06-12 17:31:53 <devrandom> BlueMatt: np, just saying hi
2703 2011-06-12 17:32:05 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2704 2011-06-12 17:32:22 dishwara has joined
2705 2011-06-12 17:32:44 <xelister> BlueMattBot: i2p is like tor but sort of decetralized
2706 2011-06-12 17:32:44 <BlueMattBot> xelister did you mean me? Unknown command 'i2p'
2707 2011-06-12 17:32:44 <BlueMattBot> Use 'BlueMattBot: help' to get help!
2708 2011-06-12 17:32:49 <xelister> bleh
2709 2011-06-12 17:32:53 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2710 2011-06-12 17:34:23 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2711 2011-06-12 17:35:32 dishwara has quit (Client Quit)
2712 2011-06-12 17:35:50 DontMindMe has joined
2713 2011-06-12 17:36:33 <diki> lol
2714 2011-06-12 17:36:41 Nicksasa has joined
2715 2011-06-12 17:37:50 pyros1 has joined
2716 2011-06-12 17:38:36 <diki> well i started the miner with .23 and it works
2717 2011-06-12 17:38:39 <diki> no problems so far
2718 2011-06-12 17:40:11 QDef has quit ()
2719 2011-06-12 17:41:40 vorlov has joined
2720 2011-06-12 17:42:17 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2721 2011-06-12 17:44:05 unclemantis has joined
2722 2011-06-12 17:44:12 <Kireji> I'd like to see mouseover on account links include title elements with the first-seen block and date
2723 2011-06-12 17:44:15 vorlov has quit (Client Quit)
2724 2011-06-12 17:44:45 cuddlefish has joined
2725 2011-06-12 17:45:11 d17v1Nmz has joined
2726 2011-06-12 17:45:43 <Kireji> ifteh a links use a title element, most browsers will show it on mouseover, and including the block and date of an address is the most useful information I'm looking for when I look at a transaction page
2727 2011-06-12 17:46:06 <Kireji> wow I have a broken keyboard->brain connection
2728 2011-06-12 17:46:14 <cuddlefish> Hey. I need a patch that lets me get notified somehow when I recieve a transaction
2729 2011-06-12 17:47:12 dissipate has joined
2730 2011-06-12 17:47:13 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
2731 2011-06-12 17:47:13 dissipate has joined
2732 2011-06-12 17:47:49 <io_error> cuddlefish: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24777749/0001-New-RPC-calls-monitortx-monitorblocks-listmonitored.patch
2733 2011-06-12 17:48:13 <cuddlefish> io_error: is that compatible with .22?
2734 2011-06-12 17:48:18 <ArdaXi> I was reading about the anonimity issue with accepting donations and whatnot. I was thinking, couldn't you implement multiple groups of addresses (accounts) in the same wallet, and have change only go to the same account?
2735 2011-06-12 17:48:22 <cuddlefish> the release, not the gun
2736 2011-06-12 17:48:24 <io_error> cuddlefish: I hacked it together from gavin's out of date patch myself
2737 2011-06-12 17:48:30 eoss has joined
2738 2011-06-12 17:48:38 <io_error> cuddlefish: and I"m also using it
2739 2011-06-12 17:48:38 pRjck3vC has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2741 2011-06-12 17:48:45 <ArdaXi> That way, you can have one account for anonymous coins, and one for compromised coins.
2742 2011-06-12 17:48:45 <cuddlefish> io_error: Okay, great
2743 2011-06-12 17:49:00 Blitzboom has joined
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2746 2011-06-12 17:54:09 <Taveren93HGK> ArdaXi i'm taking it further, and using a different account for every single transaction
2747 2011-06-12 17:54:27 <ArdaXi> Taveren93HGK: That's rather impossible.
2748 2011-06-12 17:54:35 <ArdaXi> Unless you spend exactly what you receive.
2749 2011-06-12 17:54:43 mmoya has joined
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2752 2011-06-12 17:57:28 <ArdaXi> Taveren93HGK: (assuming you mean account, not address)
2753 2011-06-12 17:58:29 mosi has joined
2754 2011-06-12 17:59:05 <Taveren93HGK> i misunderstood. i meant address
2755 2011-06-12 17:59:24 <Taveren93HGK> too many irc windows open, i'm starting to feel like irc is just one giant game of wack-a-mole
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2767 2011-06-12 18:11:59 <underscor> Quick question, guys
2768 2011-06-12 18:12:04 <underscor> What does this mean on Mt Gox?
2769 2011-06-12 18:12:07 <underscor> "Another trade is still in progress, please retry in a few seconds"
2770 2011-06-12 18:12:20 <xelister> underscor: also seen this today. perhaps overload.
2771 2011-06-12 18:12:23 <underscor> Oh okay
2772 2011-06-12 18:12:30 <underscor> I thought I did something wrong
2773 2011-06-12 18:12:35 <underscor> My first time on mtgox
2774 2011-06-12 18:12:38 <underscor> :)
2775 2011-06-12 18:12:52 foomla has joined
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2777 2011-06-12 18:13:41 <phantomcircuit> argh
2778 2011-06-12 18:13:46 <phantomcircuit> mtgox swallowed my 72 btc
2779 2011-06-12 18:13:48 <phantomcircuit> >.>
2780 2011-06-12 18:13:53 <xelister> phantomcircuit: trolololo
2781 2011-06-12 18:14:12 <phantomcircuit> xelister, im 100% serious
2782 2011-06-12 18:14:21 <phantomcircuit> i sent 70 BTC through the email thing
2783 2011-06-12 18:14:26 <phantomcircuit> and the email was rejected
2784 2011-06-12 18:14:35 <phantomcircuit> funds are now in neither account for > 1 week
2785 2011-06-12 18:16:01 zapnap has joined
2786 2011-06-12 18:16:19 <xelister> owned
2787 2011-06-12 18:16:46 jaybny has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2788 2011-06-12 18:16:58 <phantomcircuit> xelister, the funds will be refunded
2789 2011-06-12 18:17:37 <xelister> yeap ther probably will
2790 2011-06-12 18:17:40 <xelister> what email thng thou?
2791 2011-06-12 18:17:40 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2792 2011-06-12 18:17:42 * xelister brb
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2799 2011-06-12 18:25:54 <luke-jr> ius: ?
2800 2011-06-12 18:26:16 Nicksasa has joined
2801 2011-06-12 18:27:22 <ius> luke-jr: Could you take a look at https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool/pull/24 and tell me what you think?
2802 2011-06-12 18:27:57 has joined
2803 2011-06-12 18:27:59 <jgarzik> ius: just need to add option to disable roll-ntime, if you don't like it
2804 2011-06-12 18:28:03 <jgarzik> ius: no need to revert
2805 2011-06-12 18:28:19 <ius> Well, I couldn't think of a case where you'd like it given that it /will/ break things
2806 2011-06-12 18:28:43 <ius> I was pretty sure it was introduced for a good use case, I just don't see how it could ever work properly
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2808 2011-06-12 18:29:08 <luke-jr> ius: it does work properly.
2809 2011-06-12 18:29:21 EncRyptO has joined
2810 2011-06-12 18:29:29 <jgarzik> ius: why do you think that?
2811 2011-06-12 18:29:37 <cuddlefish> io_error: Hey, I can't get that patch to apply right on the latest Git
2812 2011-06-12 18:29:52 <io_error> cuddlefish: That doesn't surprise me much.
2813 2011-06-12 18:29:56 <luke-jr> jgarzik: he's partially correct: stock bitcoind has a bug that will create duplicate work with this
2814 2011-06-12 18:29:57 <jgarzik> luke-jr: some other pools see increased dups with roll-ntime, and that -is- a possibility
2815 2011-06-12 18:30:01 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes
2816 2011-06-12 18:30:09 <jgarzik> nothing to do with pushpool
2817 2011-06-12 18:30:09 <luke-jr> I have a branch with that fixed
2818 2011-06-12 18:30:10 <ius> That, indeed
2819 2011-06-12 18:30:26 <jgarzik> luke-jr: upstream-able fix?
2820 2011-06-12 18:30:32 <cuddlefish> io_error: is there some stable source I can't find?
2821 2011-06-12 18:30:40 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I guess, but it might be be a complete fix
2822 2011-06-12 18:30:43 * jgarzik needs to poke slush for his/m0mchil's performance patches
2823 2011-06-12 18:30:43 <io_error> cuddlefish: git checkout 0.3.22
2824 2011-06-12 18:30:52 <jgarzik> io_error: add a 'v'
2825 2011-06-12 18:30:56 <io_error> er
2826 2011-06-12 18:30:57 <cuddlefish> io_error: Aaah, it's a branch
2827 2011-06-12 18:30:59 <io_error> cuddlefish: git checkout v0.3.22
2828 2011-06-12 18:31:07 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: it's a tag, not a branch
2829 2011-06-12 18:31:13 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2830 2011-06-12 18:31:19 <ius> Well yeah, I was actually not sure whether it was pushpool's issue or bitcoind. If bitcoind is changed, fine too
2831 2011-06-12 18:31:25 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: Oh, even better. proper use of Git is far too rare :P
2832 2011-06-12 18:31:29 <slush> jgarzik: yes?
2833 2011-06-12 18:31:31 <io_error> jgarzik: That patch really needs to get in soon
2834 2011-06-12 18:31:31 <luke-jr> jgarzik: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/shortlog/refs/heads/getwork_dedupe
2835 2011-06-12 18:31:34 <slush> it is published somewhere on forum
2836 2011-06-12 18:31:43 <io_error> jgarzik: or something very much like it
2837 2011-06-12 18:31:43 <jgarzik> slush: yes. I need to find them and go over them :)
2838 2011-06-12 18:31:54 ali1234 has left ()
2839 2011-06-12 18:31:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it might be better to only reset extranonce when prevblock changes, though
2840 2011-06-12 18:32:00 <ius> I git blame'd it but didn't see any recent changes to the get_work/IncrementExtraNonce code, guessed it would be considered fine as-is
2841 2011-06-12 18:32:00 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2842 2011-06-12 18:32:05 <jgarzik> io_error: which patch? we are discussing two programs and multiple sets of patches here :)
2843 2011-06-12 18:32:20 <luke-jr> brb
2844 2011-06-12 18:32:26 <slush> jgarzik: find something in that forum mess? Impossible :)
2845 2011-06-12 18:32:27 <io_error> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/198
2846 2011-06-12 18:32:31 <jgarzik> slush: :)
2847 2011-06-12 18:32:36 <slush> It might be one of last m0mchil post
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2850 2011-06-12 18:34:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: we can put all sorts of shit into coinbase
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2852 2011-06-12 18:34:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: so it's easy to solve one way or another
2853 2011-06-12 18:34:58 <jgarzik> io_error: blkmond is probably better than that patch
2854 2011-06-12 18:35:13 <falafell> jgarzik, are there plans to implement export/import function for keys in short term?
2855 2011-06-12 18:35:34 <jgarzik> falafell: it's in the huge pile of pull requests
2856 2011-06-12 18:35:35 <cuddlefish> io_error: Hmmm. hunk 2 still fails
2857 2011-06-12 18:35:46 <io_error> jgarzik: I'm happy to use whatever the "official" solution is. Where in the world is blkmond?
2858 2011-06-12 18:35:53 roconnor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2859 2011-06-12 18:35:58 <jgarzik> io_error: https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool/blob/master/blkmond
2860 2011-06-12 18:36:03 <falafell> xD k just checking if it didnt slip thru xD
2861 2011-06-12 18:36:11 <jgarzik> io_error: it's just a copy of ArtForz's half-a-node
2862 2011-06-12 18:36:21 <luke-jr> jgarzik: might be neat to put miner usernames into their coinbase :p
2863 2011-06-12 18:36:35 <jgarzik> :)
2864 2011-06-12 18:36:47 <io_error> jgarzik: Can I run that on a box with a bitcoind already running?
2865 2011-06-12 18:36:57 <jgarzik> io_error: of course
2866 2011-06-12 18:37:06 has joined
2867 2011-06-12 18:37:08 <jgarzik> io_error: in fact, it requires bitcoind on 127.0.0.1 as written
2868 2011-06-12 18:37:09 <luke-jr> jgarzik: although IMO, miners should publish their acceptance policy in coinbases somehow
2869 2011-06-12 18:37:19 legion050 has joined
2870 2011-06-12 18:37:25 <jgarzik> if satoshi can include a bank rant in the coinbase, you can too
2871 2011-06-12 18:37:28 <luke-jr> lol
2872 2011-06-12 18:37:35 <ius> hah
2873 2011-06-12 18:37:36 <luke-jr> hmmmmmmm
2874 2011-06-12 18:37:36 <io_error> jgarzik: OK good, I think.
2875 2011-06-12 18:37:40 <io_error> cuddlefish: see above
2876 2011-06-12 18:38:17 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: if whatever you're merging is in git, it's better to do a 'git pull' than apply a patch using patch(1). git merges are pretty darned smart.
2877 2011-06-12 18:39:13 <io_error> jgarzik: [13:46] <cuddlefish> Hey. I need a patch that lets me get notified somehow when I recieve a transaction
2878 2011-06-12 18:39:17 <ius> luke-jr: I couldn't really find a reference on XRoll-nTime - it allows the client to vary the timestamp, but for how long?
2879 2011-06-12 18:39:24 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2880 2011-06-12 18:39:34 <luke-jr> ius: until it's stale?
2881 2011-06-12 18:39:43 <jgarzik> io_error: point still stands. easiest way to apply a patch is find old version, apply on branch, and then git merge to new version.
2882 2011-06-12 18:39:47 <ius> I mean, with your patch it could still dupe, every 15s?
2883 2011-06-12 18:40:00 <luke-jr> ius: possibly, but I'm not sure it happens
2884 2011-06-12 18:40:11 <jgarzik> ius: x-roll-ntime can vary up to 2 hours either way, inside bitcoind
2885 2011-06-12 18:40:34 <ius> Ah, so that's network-enforced
2886 2011-06-12 18:41:13 <ius> Well I do see the use of it now, so let's make it optional instead then
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2893 2011-06-12 18:44:39 <jgarzik> ius: in any case, getting back to pushpool... can you be talked into closing your pull request, and replacing it with a config option to disable x-roll-ntime? grep for disable_lp and create similar logic in config.c, server.c and msg.c. in work_in_log(), after "if (timestampRcvd == timestampSent)" fails, return "ntime-invalid" or somesuch string.
2894 2011-06-12 18:44:50 <roconnor> lianj: One thing I will note is that placeing the subscript in the output ties the script state in with the signature
2895 2011-06-12 18:45:08 <roconnor> *ties the script state when the signature was made in with the signature
2896 2011-06-12 18:45:20 Kiba has joined
2897 2011-06-12 18:45:21 <ius> Yeah
2898 2011-06-12 18:45:32 <ius> That's what I just suggested too, will do
2899 2011-06-12 18:45:42 <jgarzik> ius: thanks
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2901 2011-06-12 18:51:14 <lianj> roconnor: but doesnt the prev_out hash + its index do this, which is already present in the data?
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2909 2011-06-12 18:53:28 <falafell> what happened to the exchanges? everybody stopped trading xD
2910 2011-06-12 18:54:00 <Taveren93HGK> mtgox is asleep. be patient
2911 2011-06-12 18:54:36 <falafell> oh it's not working? i thought people just stopped exchanging
2912 2011-06-12 18:54:45 <Netsniper> somebody that knows me have a referral code from tradehill?
2913 2011-06-12 18:56:46 <phantomcircuit> lol tradehill guy is gonna get in trouble
2914 2011-06-12 18:56:52 <phantomcircuit> he's operating a forex site without a license
2915 2011-06-12 18:58:20 sabalaba has joined
2916 2011-06-12 18:58:46 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: is that what Chilean law says?
2917 2011-06-12 18:59:30 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i believe so
2918 2011-06-12 18:59:59 <phantomcircuit> either way he's operating with LR and dwolla so he MUST follow us export laws or dwolla and LR will be forced to stop dealing with him (eventually)
2919 2011-06-12 19:00:14 <phantomcircuit> it's like the poker sites
2920 2011-06-12 19:00:40 cut has joined
2921 2011-06-12 19:00:43 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: true
2922 2011-06-12 19:00:45 <jgarzik> w/ USD
2923 2011-06-12 19:01:25 kluge has joined
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2926 2011-06-12 19:02:28 <cut> i'm getting overflows with pushpoold right after a client requsts getwork. any ideas? http://fo0.com:81/pushpooldvalgrind.txt
2927 2011-06-12 19:02:31 <roconnor> lianj: not when script sepearators are used
2928 2011-06-12 19:02:39 <roconnor> whatever they are called
2929 2011-06-12 19:05:02 <roconnor> OP_CODESEPARATOR
2930 2011-06-12 19:05:19 * roconnor hasn't implement handling of OP_CODESEPARATOR yet
2931 2011-06-12 19:05:38 <mrh00d> 2BTC bounty to code a simple guess and win site for me
2932 2011-06-12 19:05:39 fimp has joined
2933 2011-06-12 19:05:57 <mrh00d> please pm me
2934 2011-06-12 19:08:45 plato has joined
2935 2011-06-12 19:08:49 <plato> yo guys
2936 2011-06-12 19:09:02 <plato> there was a noob thread with some people talking about 'shifting the decimal point'
2937 2011-06-12 19:09:09 <plato> can anyone verify that my response is correct
2938 2011-06-12 19:09:11 <plato> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15291.msg209098#msg209098
2939 2011-06-12 19:10:36 <falafell> sounds right afaik
2940 2011-06-12 19:10:47 <falafell> but im a n00b... so don't take my word for it
2941 2011-06-12 19:11:16 subpar has joined
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2945 2011-06-12 19:12:10 <nanotube> plato: not necessarily a new blockchain... but definitely a change in the client that affects blockchain format starting from some blockx
2946 2011-06-12 19:12:29 huk has joined
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2949 2011-06-12 19:12:58 lyspooner has joined
2950 2011-06-12 19:13:07 <b0o-supe-> Hi
2951 2011-06-12 19:13:14 Mononofu has joined
2952 2011-06-12 19:13:40 <b0o-supe-> Why btc0.1 bug was fixed then reverted?
2953 2011-06-12 19:13:59 <lyspooner> hi all. if i am in the windows cmd prompt in the correct directory, how do i find a list of commands i can run for namecoind?
2954 2011-06-12 19:14:24 Murfshake has joined
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2962 2011-06-12 19:18:42 <b0o-supe-> Suk
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2964 2011-06-12 19:20:40 <lianj> roconnor: oh thanks :) gotta wrap my mind around that now
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2972 2011-06-12 19:25:00 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, my point is more that putting your usd on the site is a huge gamble, if they get shut down the btc/usd trade will become pretty heavily lopsided
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2975 2011-06-12 19:27:25 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
2976 2011-06-12 19:27:27 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130344 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 695 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 1 hour, 56 minutes, and 25 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 827436.28301388
2977 2011-06-12 19:28:20 <unclemantis> wow
2978 2011-06-12 19:28:41 <unclemantis> unless I am mining now or i have money to invest in hardware I guess I missed the boat!
2979 2011-06-12 19:29:38 <plato> .last plato
2980 2011-06-12 19:29:47 <plato> nanotube: thanks
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2988 2011-06-12 19:31:45 <ius> jgarzik: Closed the old one and resubmitted
2989 2011-06-12 19:32:17 <xelister> 820 k diff.... TROLOLololo lololo loloooo..... :-E
2990 2011-06-12 19:33:00 <roconnor> lianj: I don't know if this really answers your question, but it is at least something :D
2991 2011-06-12 19:33:14 <roconnor> lianj: I haven't looked into CODESEPARATORS that much
2992 2011-06-12 19:33:56 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2996 2011-06-12 19:38:09 <unclemantis> if i have 100 BTC in my wallet.dat and the file gets deleted, corrupted etc... I know that the money is gone for ever but will the network ever calculate that 100 btc is missing from the network and adjust accordingly?
2997 2011-06-12 19:38:26 <xelister> unclemantis: no. how would we know if it is "missing"?
2998 2011-06-12 19:39:00 _flow_ has joined
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3000 2011-06-12 19:39:28 <unclemantis> exactly
3001 2011-06-12 19:39:43 <lyspooner> the stuff in your wallet.dat file, while deleted, still exists, just not on your computer anymore
3002 2011-06-12 19:39:52 <unclemantis> so in reality there is no way there could ever be the max allowed number of btc generated in the network
3003 2011-06-12 19:40:21 <iz> unclemantis: it's still there on the network
3004 2011-06-12 19:40:27 <iz> it's just no one can access it
3005 2011-06-12 19:40:32 <iz> because you lost the keys to it in your wallet.dat
3006 2011-06-12 19:41:19 <unclemantis> i guess it is like burning paper money
3007 2011-06-12 19:41:28 <unclemantis> the mint knows how many it minted
3008 2011-06-12 19:41:49 <iz> yeah
3009 2011-06-12 19:42:06 <wistiu> sup
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3016 2011-06-12 19:49:19 <mologie> Hey, I am right now writing a web application which processes payments through bitcoin. I do not necessarily want that the user must visit a certain webpage or leave his browser open to have his transaction confirmed (like most websites to right now). To do this, I fetch all transactions the last 100 transactions from bitciond every 10 seconds using a background process, which right now works quite well.
3017 2011-06-12 19:49:19 <mologie> However, assuming I will ever get more than 100 transactions in 10 seconds, this system will fail. Is there any other, more recommended way to do this?
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3020 2011-06-12 19:50:25 <unclemantis> what would be the difficulty of generating the very last bitcoin?
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3022 2011-06-12 19:50:58 <phantomcircuit> mologie, blkmond
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3031 2011-06-12 19:56:05 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
3032 2011-06-12 19:56:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130350 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 689 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 1 hour, 6 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 828618.60120687
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3034 2011-06-12 19:56:41 <mologie> thanks phantomcircuit, that appears to be specifically for pushpool though or am i wrong there?
3035 2011-06-12 19:56:52 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3036 2011-06-12 19:57:59 <machine1> SELL Mortimer SELL! http://beforeitsnews.com/story/708/539/Alert:_Bitcoin_Possible_C.I.A._Operation_14.00_Rtq.html
3037 2011-06-12 19:58:04 <phantomcircuit> mologie, i believe it's a generic block monitoring system
3038 2011-06-12 19:59:00 <mologie> okay, assuming i can get this to work for my system, how would i proceed? i think i'd have to parse the transaction list of the new block myself and check if transactions have been send to my wallet
3039 2011-06-12 19:59:04 is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-68-251-186-200.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Netsniper
3040 2011-06-12 19:59:06 <mologie> that would however still not solve the actual program
3041 2011-06-12 19:59:11 <mologie> s/program/problem/
3042 2011-06-12 19:59:16 <mologie> I was thinking about either a callback from bitcoind itself when a new transaction is received, or on another parameter for the listtransactions API to specify a timestamp ie 'list all transactions since X'.
3043 2011-06-12 19:59:47 <phantomcircuit> mologie, well if you want the web page to notify of the transaction working you need some kind of long poll setup
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3045 2011-06-12 19:59:51 <phantomcircuit> mologie, which is a huge pita
3046 2011-06-12 20:01:31 <mologie> agreed, I think I might 'just' hack the bitcoin source to have another API function which allows me to fetch all transaction which my background process did not process yet by passing the time of the last request as parameter
3047 2011-06-12 20:01:41 <jgarzik> ius: thanks
3048 2011-06-12 20:03:13 <jgarzik> ius: looks good, pulled
3049 2011-06-12 20:03:58 <phantomcircuit> mologie, lol genjix is working on that actually
3050 2011-06-12 20:04:02 <phantomcircuit> mologie, so id jsut wait
3051 2011-06-12 20:04:13 <mologie> phantomcircuit, great, thanks for the info
3052 2011-06-12 20:04:36 <mologie> what would be even better is having bitcoind fetch a page through http when a new transaction is received
3053 2011-06-12 20:05:02 <mologie> it could then post the transaction data to the PHP script and i would no longer need a background program anymore at all
3054 2011-06-12 20:05:13 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Joerie de Gram * rebbce297cccd pushpool/ (config.c example-cfg.json msg.c server.c server.h): Make ntime rolling support configurable http://tinyurl.com/6crddqt
3055 2011-06-12 20:05:15 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * r6cfa03f75f62 pushpool/ (config.c example-cfg.json msg.c server.c server.h): Merge pull request #25 from ius/master http://tinyurl.com/5sdmkx6
3056 2011-06-12 20:05:15 <mologie> (same for confirmations)
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3058 2011-06-12 20:07:00 <mologie> So i'll just stay with the 100 transactions/10 seconds for now until the update is ready
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3079 2011-06-12 20:25:44 <xelister> what do you think of chance of usafags going after bitcoin
3080 2011-06-12 20:27:30 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: schumer already trying to draft legislation
3081 2011-06-12 20:27:40 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: url?
3082 2011-06-12 20:27:42 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: but he's stupid. what he really objects to is silk road / tor
3083 2011-06-12 20:28:06 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: silk road isn't in us and tor is supported by the leaders of his political party so attacking it would be political suicide
3084 2011-06-12 20:28:12 <jrmithdobbs> so in his impotent rage he goes after bitcoin
3085 2011-06-12 20:28:21 discHead has joined
3086 2011-06-12 20:28:21 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: google schumer bitcoi
3087 2011-06-12 20:29:05 <transverse> ANDROID MTGOX INTERFACE IS ALMOST HERE: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159008/AndroidMTGOXBuyScreen.JPG , mockup sketch: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159008/AndroidMTGOXMockup.jpg
3088 2011-06-12 20:30:10 <jrmithdobbs> transverse: that's a pretty awful ui
3089 2011-06-12 20:30:19 <xelister> regarding usafags
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3091 2011-06-12 20:30:27 <xelister> interesting talks @ #btcfv
3092 2011-06-12 20:30:30 <xelister> #btcfn
3093 2011-06-12 20:30:34 <transverse> jrmithdobbs: yep, it is. but i'm just making sure it works right now
3094 2011-06-12 20:30:34 <xelister> IDEA: freenet for blockchain download (big downloads, lag not important) and for receiving payments (from blocks)
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3098 2011-06-12 20:30:44 <jrmithdobbs> transverse: so long as you know ;P
3099 2011-06-12 20:31:01 <transverse> jrmithdobbs: thanks :P
3100 2011-06-12 20:31:22 <transverse> code and function first, then make it pretty.
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3103 2011-06-12 20:34:12 <phantomcircuit> transverse, yeah too bad mtgox interface is down
3104 2011-06-12 20:34:13 <phantomcircuit> lol
3105 2011-06-12 20:34:49 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if magicaltux realizes that his graphs are what cause 90% of his load
3106 2011-06-12 20:34:57 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: link?
3107 2011-06-12 20:35:16 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: I've been looking for Schumer links with details, not just speculation
3108 2011-06-12 20:36:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah supposedly there is an "open letter" but i haven't been able to find shit
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3110 2011-06-12 20:36:42 <transverse> phantomcircuit, yeahh, that's something i'll have to work around for right now. oh well. i'll finish this program and then go make it look nice for jrmithdobbs. hopefully by then mtgox will be back up
3111 2011-06-12 20:36:59 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: here's the Schumer letter: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/405243/
3112 2011-06-12 20:37:16 <jgarzik> but I could have sworn there were soundbites regarding anti-"encrypted currency" legislation
3113 2011-06-12 20:37:21 <jgarzik> looking for links on that
3114 2011-06-12 20:37:57 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i don't remember what link i got it from
3115 2011-06-12 20:38:09 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: but there was a slew of news stories about his silk road rant on the floor
3116 2011-06-12 20:38:22 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: then a couple days later he announced he was working with some R to draft legislation
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3119 2011-06-12 20:39:04 <Trawlen> Lets say that in PHP i want to be able to let users click a button to pay for items in bitcoins, they go to me, i take a percentage of the coin, and then i send it to another address. Where would i start?
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3121 2011-06-12 20:39:28 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya the sources i saw specifically said anti-bitcoin legislation, not anti-silk road / anti-tor
3122 2011-06-12 20:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: even though in all his rants everything he complains about are related to silk road and tor, not bitcoin
3123 2011-06-12 20:40:46 normanrichards has joined
3124 2011-06-12 20:40:47 <xelister> jgarzik: what is your statnd on encryption, anonimity and other human rights, as bitcoin developer
3125 2011-06-12 20:40:50 d1234_ has joined
3126 2011-06-12 20:41:16 <ericmock> just that apparently bitcoins are being used for transactions at silk road... the connection seem very nebulous.
3127 2011-06-12 20:41:23 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: this is the one i was thinking about i think
3128 2011-06-12 20:41:32 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110605/22322814558/senator-schumer-says-bitcoin-is-money-laundering.shtml
3129 2011-06-12 20:41:35 <xelister> DICKS
3130 2011-06-12 20:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> actually no that's not it
3131 2011-06-12 20:41:47 <xelister> DICKS can be used for rape. Lets cut them off. If you oppose you're a child molester
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3133 2011-06-12 20:42:11 * xelister ^- likes usa gov way of thinking -^
3134 2011-06-12 20:42:12 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: here it is
3135 2011-06-12 20:42:15 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: had to search history
3136 2011-06-12 20:42:17 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: http://www.tribbleagency.com/?p=8070
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3138 2011-06-12 20:42:35 <xelister> can't boxes of organges used to laundry money
3139 2011-06-12 20:42:42 <jrmithdobbs> Democratic Senators Charles Schumer of New York and Joe Manchin of West Virginia are in the process of drafting an anti-bitcoin law that would make trading or using the bitcoin currency illegal in the United States.
3140 2011-06-12 20:43:05 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: tololo
3141 2011-06-12 20:43:05 rlifchitz has joined
3142 2011-06-12 20:43:22 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: they don't cite sources though
3143 2011-06-12 20:43:27 <ArtForzZz> jrmithdobbs: src plox?
3144 2011-06-12 20:43:35 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: ^^^^
3145 2011-06-12 20:44:16 <xelister> wazup ArtForzZz. they let you out of the bighouse >_> ?
3146 2011-06-12 20:44:27 <ArtForzZz> sure
3147 2011-06-12 20:44:58 <phantomcircuit> As you may know, Silk Road employs various ecy
3148 2011-06-12 20:45:00 <phantomcircuit> lol wat
3149 2011-06-12 20:45:01 <phantomcircuit> ecy?
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3152 2011-06-12 20:45:55 <xelister> maybe he verified the silkroad reality before writting that
3153 2011-06-12 20:45:57 <diki> lolwut?
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3157 2011-06-12 20:46:07 <diki> phantom, why are u asking yourself?
3158 2011-06-12 20:46:19 <xelister> an DEMOCRATIC sendator. lol USA "democracts" you so free ;)
3159 2011-06-12 20:46:31 <xelister> democracy is banning free currency
3160 2011-06-12 20:46:34 <xelister> war is peace
3161 2011-06-12 20:47:33 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: best i can tell their "source" is "mangling the reuters/chicago tribune article"
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3164 2011-06-12 20:48:47 <phantomcircuit> the Attorney General has the authority to shut down such entities involved in the delivery and distribution of controlled substances by seizing the website domain name.
3165 2011-06-12 20:48:49 <phantomcircuit> ahahaah
3166 2011-06-12 20:48:52 <phantomcircuit> are they for real?
3167 2011-06-12 20:49:25 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3168 2011-06-12 20:50:29 <Trawlen> bye bye mtgox
3169 2011-06-12 20:50:52 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: attorney general doesn't have that power
3170 2011-06-12 20:50:53 <jrmithdobbs> lol wtf
3171 2011-06-12 20:51:02 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, actually he does
3172 2011-06-12 20:51:13 <phantomcircuit> but silk road doesn't HAVE a domain name
3173 2011-06-12 20:51:15 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: only if regged by us companies
3174 2011-06-12 20:51:23 <Trawlen> phantomcircuit: you dont need to shut down silkroad
3175 2011-06-12 20:51:27 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, uh no they can seize any domain world wide
3176 2011-06-12 20:51:40 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: .com .net .org .us only.
3177 2011-06-12 20:51:42 <phantomcircuit> wrong
3178 2011-06-12 20:51:47 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: source?
3179 2011-06-12 20:51:51 <phantomcircuit> ICANN can add root level records
3180 2011-06-12 20:51:56 <Trawlen> No, only the ones where the providers are US based i remember reading it
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3182 2011-06-12 20:52:17 <Trawlen> They didnt like them being in the US cause it means they have the power to do anything they want with them, they basically control the net
3183 2011-06-12 20:52:19 <phantomcircuit> they promised other countries not to do it
3184 2011-06-12 20:52:24 <phantomcircuit> but that's a load of shit of course
3185 2011-06-12 20:52:33 kiba has joined
3186 2011-06-12 20:52:47 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: it's not happened yet and icann has been pretty honest so far
3187 2011-06-12 20:54:02 <lyspooner> where be that list of unconfirmed transactions
3188 2011-06-12 20:54:07 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yes they have yet to do so
3189 2011-06-12 20:54:14 <phantomcircuit> however they 100% can if they decide to
3190 2011-06-12 20:54:32 <phantomcircuit> regardless my point was that silkroad doesn't have a fucking domain name
3191 2011-06-12 20:54:35 <Trawlen> They have already done it
3192 2011-06-12 20:54:40 <phantomcircuit> the entire sentiment is nonsensical
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3194 2011-06-12 20:54:55 <Trawlen> And like i said you dont need to shut silkroad down just the things that make it run. Without mtgox its useless for dealers.
3195 2011-06-12 20:55:14 <phantomcircuit> Trawlen, shutting down mtgox would be much harder than you think
3196 2011-06-12 20:55:21 <phantomcircuit> they would have to show cause
3197 2011-06-12 20:55:24 <phantomcircuit> for which there is none
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3199 2011-06-12 20:56:24 <Trawlen> Umm
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3203 2011-06-12 20:56:34 <Trawlen> Dude they shut down more than 20 domains for no cause already
3204 2011-06-12 20:56:55 <Trawlen> Do you not remember when they redirected all those movie and poker sites to some FBI warning?
3205 2011-06-12 20:57:03 <phantomcircuit> uh
3206 2011-06-12 20:57:05 <phantomcircuit> that is cause
3207 2011-06-12 20:57:24 <phantomcircuit> copyright infringement and poker sites are illegal when they're allowing us citizens to do it
3208 2011-06-12 20:57:32 <Trawlen> copyright infringement, nope
3209 2011-06-12 20:57:32 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: lolbertarian logic
3210 2011-06-12 20:57:34 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: don't bother
3211 2011-06-12 20:57:35 <xelister> jgarzik: what is your statnd on encryption, anonimity and other human rights, as bitcoin developer
3212 2011-06-12 20:57:39 <Trawlen> They weren't even hosting the files
3213 2011-06-12 20:57:45 <Trawlen> They were linking to sites like megavideo
3214 2011-06-12 20:57:49 <Trawlen> They were simply link indexes
3215 2011-06-12 20:57:58 <dubious_> looking for someone to help me advertise for my IPO, going to be the largest IPO so far
3216 2011-06-12 20:58:01 <phantomcircuit> Trawlen, legally who is hosting them is irrelevant, indexing is infringement now
3217 2011-06-12 20:58:02 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: you see the court system is supposed to operate in the fantasy magical ideal lolbertarian world
3218 2011-06-12 20:58:10 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: and when it doesn't you can just say that it should and win the argument
3219 2011-06-12 20:58:11 <xelister> Trawlen: mtgox.com is registered @ jp afair
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3221 2011-06-12 20:58:17 <phantomcircuit> dubious_, lol wat
3222 2011-06-12 20:58:19 <xelister> do usafags controll all .com ?
3223 2011-06-12 20:58:30 <xelister> hmmm
3224 2011-06-12 20:58:31 <Trawlen> phantomcircuit: money laundering is illegal too
3225 2011-06-12 20:58:31 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: yes
3226 2011-06-12 20:58:35 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yes, actually the us controls .
3227 2011-06-12 20:58:39 <xelister> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
3228 2011-06-12 20:58:41 <xelister> jgarzik: what is your statnd on encryption, anonimity and other human rights, as bitcoin developer
3229 2011-06-12 20:58:42 <xelister> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
3230 2011-06-12 20:58:50 <phantomcircuit> rofl
3231 2011-06-12 20:58:56 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: die
3232 2011-06-12 20:58:57 <phantomcircuit> slashdot questions?
3233 2011-06-12 20:59:08 <phantomcircuit> Trawlen, i know for a fact that mtgox follows all applicable kyc laws
3234 2011-06-12 20:59:18 <jrmithdobbs> ya they do
3235 2011-06-12 20:59:43 <xelister> hm? it's open question. Is it bad if question is open? Ok... "do you think people should have option to use bitcoins without `bigbrother` controlling everything, and what if usa wold like to nblock this"
3236 2011-06-12 21:00:14 <iz> xelister: #bitcoin would be a better place for that kind of question, probably
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3239 2011-06-12 21:00:56 <xelister> iz: hm? we always do all the talking here
3240 2011-06-12 21:00:58 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: and being ignored does not mean "please repeat your question with extra lines of extraneous garbage surrounding it to draw attention to it"
3241 2011-06-12 21:02:13 <iz> xelister: this is meant to be a software dev chat channel and #bitcoin is for more general bitcoin related chatting
3242 2011-06-12 21:02:14 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: I hand drawn thoes asciiART
3243 2011-06-12 21:02:36 <xelister> iz: oh you kids you. We talk here about everything since forever
3244 2011-06-12 21:02:49 zyb has joined
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3246 2011-06-12 21:03:12 * iz shrugs... just don't feel odd if you notice you're just talking to yourself..
3247 2011-06-12 21:03:16 <Trawlen> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jun/12/bitcoin-online-currency-us-government "Bitcoin: the hacker currency that's taking over the web"
3248 2011-06-12 21:03:50 <phantomcircuit> you'll notice that this is that authors only large article
3249 2011-06-12 21:03:54 <xelister> Trawlen: why so many articles repeat the incorrectness that bitcoin is "untracable" [by default] - it is not
3250 2011-06-12 21:04:16 <xelister> Trawlen: #btcfn - transporting over secure channels (+ mixin) might make it untracable
3251 2011-06-12 21:04:22 <Trawlen> xelister: what happens with bitcoin isnt untraceable. who uses it is the harder part to find out
3252 2011-06-12 21:04:56 <Trawlen> xelister: i was thinking though, if you post your wallet it on a forum for example which displays your email, they're going to find you anyways. most people are stupid enough to do it too
3253 2011-06-12 21:05:00 <xelister> Trawlen: not so hard. Follow coin movement, find IRL connection, backtrace from there -or- on IP level listen in to who emits TX first. its not even encrypted AT ALL its clear text protocol.
3254 2011-06-12 21:05:04 <phantomcircuit> xelister, perfect money laundering is possible with btc...
3255 2011-06-12 21:05:25 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: possible with USD cash too
3256 2011-06-12 21:05:31 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
3257 2011-06-12 21:06:01 <xelister> "An odd alliance of libertarians, geeks, businesspeople and drug kingpins" lol wuut.......
3258 2011-06-12 21:06:20 <xelister> its almost like saying: VISA - odd aliance of Banking, Networking, and War lords
3259 2011-06-12 21:08:34 <phantomcircuit> there is someone runnign a money laundering operation with btc that lulzsec appears to have used
3260 2011-06-12 21:08:47 <phantomcircuit> you can tell because it's just mixing up their own funds minus 1%
3261 2011-06-12 21:08:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
3262 2011-06-12 21:09:00 <phantomcircuit> network analysis fail
3263 2011-06-12 21:09:09 <Trawlen> The best thing i can see coming from bitcoin is paypal dying. i hate those fuckers.
3264 2011-06-12 21:09:16 Jere_Jones has joined
3265 2011-06-12 21:09:34 wistiu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3266 2011-06-12 21:09:34 Zyrkon has joined
3267 2011-06-12 21:09:39 <Trawlen> I send $1 to canada and my account is locked, FOREVER, for suspicious activity.
3268 2011-06-12 21:09:51 x5x is now known as coderrr
3269 2011-06-12 21:09:52 <lyspooner> phantomcircuit: link
3270 2011-06-12 21:10:06 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
3271 2011-06-12 21:11:48 <phantomcircuit> lyspooner, just find the addr they had on twitter and follow them
3272 2011-06-12 21:12:30 <lyspooner> they washed their coins and got the same ones back? this is why i adovcate a bitcoin laundry day every 1st of the month
3273 2011-06-12 21:12:38 <phantomcircuit> Trawlen, lol, using the internet in poland to send money from my VERIFIED account, to my VERIFIED bank account, caused them to lock my account
3274 2011-06-12 21:13:27 <ericmock> verifone, cc processors, etc. dying would be nice too
3275 2011-06-12 21:13:28 <Trawlen> Thing is their automated system did it to me, and the indian said it never unbans accounts. So if $1 to canada is suspicious then... Well.
3276 2011-06-12 21:13:36 BlueMatt has joined
3277 2011-06-12 21:13:36 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
3278 2011-06-12 21:13:36 BlueMatt has joined
3279 2011-06-12 21:14:29 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
3280 2011-06-12 21:15:35 gavinandresen has joined
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3282 2011-06-12 21:15:57 RAM2012 has joined
3283 2011-06-12 21:16:09 <xelister> BlueMatt: how is it going o/
3284 2011-06-12 21:16:20 <BlueMatt> xelister: pretty good
3285 2011-06-12 21:16:51 <aximilation> yea phantomcircuit paypal is nuts
3286 2011-06-12 21:17:11 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i'm fairly positive i could get my account flagged
3287 2011-06-12 21:17:13 <aximilation> is it sad that they are the de facto payment method on the internet
3288 2011-06-12 21:17:36 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: sad part? paypal extended me an employment offer at one point. *Still* fairly sure i could get it locked. Ha.
3289 2011-06-12 21:17:43 <lyspooner> which one of you is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5NGVH8HDaw
3290 2011-06-12 21:17:44 <jrmithdobbs> their internal depts don't talk to each other.
3291 2011-06-12 21:17:46 <jrmithdobbs> shit's crazy
3292 2011-06-12 21:18:01 Bwaah has joined
3293 2011-06-12 21:18:43 <ericmock> is it pseudo-monopoly power that makes paypal act this way or just the nature of the business at this point in time?
3294 2011-06-12 21:19:00 <jrmithdobbs> it's mostly their monopoly
3295 2011-06-12 21:19:06 <Trawlen> that would be me lyspooner xDDDDDDD ;___;
3296 2011-06-12 21:19:13 <jrmithdobbs> combined with their unethical C-level management
3297 2011-06-12 21:19:16 <ArtForzZz> paypal always was evil
3298 2011-06-12 21:19:20 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3299 2011-06-12 21:19:26 <TD> ericmock: it's not totally their fault
3300 2011-06-12 21:19:42 <TD> PayPal have to deal with an absolutely nightmarish financial environment
3301 2011-06-12 21:19:45 <xelister> ArtForzZz: hi o/ where you celebrating getting rich?
3302 2011-06-12 21:19:58 <TD> - huge levels of fraud thanks to the insecurity of credit card infrastructure
3303 2011-06-12 21:20:06 <ericmock> I just wonder if its paypal or the same thing would have happened if one of the other 'systems' had caught on instead
3304 2011-06-12 21:20:07 <TD> - AML laws that are both incredibly severe and incredibly vague
3305 2011-06-12 21:20:09 <aximilation> they deal with gazillions of people, so they have aggressive anti-fraud algorithms that get triggered at the drop of a hat
3306 2011-06-12 21:20:17 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: they weren't as bad about that kind of thing initially, but after they started getting random legal pressure they decided "fuck it, if someone accusses anything we'll just lock it. less risk for us! our TOS covers our ass for theft of the funds anyways!"
3307 2011-06-12 21:20:28 <TD> - banking regulations in N different countries
3308 2011-06-12 21:20:31 <Trawlen> aximilation: but its stupid
3309 2011-06-12 21:20:32 <aximilation> the only problem with that is you have no way of appealing any decisions their algorithm makes
3310 2011-06-12 21:20:33 <BlueMatt> ;;seen devrandom
3311 2011-06-12 21:20:33 <gribble> devrandom was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 48 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <devrandom> BlueMatt: np, just saying hi
3312 2011-06-12 21:20:35 <TD> yeah, it' s hard to blame them for that stance
3313 2011-06-12 21:20:39 <aximilation> yes it's idiotic
3314 2011-06-12 21:20:45 <TD> consider the AML regs in the USA or the UK
3315 2011-06-12 21:20:55 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: their TOS basically explicitly says "we will steal your money if we feel like it"
3316 2011-06-12 21:20:56 <ArtForzZz> yeah, except when the blatanly *violate* banking regulations
3317 2011-06-12 21:20:58 <TD> if a criminal uses you to move money around, YOU become liable
3318 2011-06-12 21:20:59 Nockm has left ()
3319 2011-06-12 21:21:00 <jrmithdobbs> anyone that does business with paypal is retarded
3320 2011-06-12 21:21:04 <BlueMatt> so...whats new in bitcoin land?
3321 2011-06-12 21:21:06 <TD> not the company. the owners of the company personally, can go to jail
3322 2011-06-12 21:21:09 <TD> potentially - for life
3323 2011-06-12 21:21:16 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3324 2011-06-12 21:21:19 <Trawlen> The anti fraud algorithms are too sensitive, they usually dont catch the actual people doing it, then the innocent don't even get a chance of a review.
3325 2011-06-12 21:21:25 <ericmock> honestly, I think it's in some regards the inevitable outcome of any paypal-like service
3326 2011-06-12 21:21:27 <aximilation> or you can also say that part of their business model is about screwing a % of legit users in order to confiscate their moniez
3327 2011-06-12 21:21:38 <Trawlen> And since paypal is accepted pretty much internet wide, and nothing else hardly, its hard when it happens to you
3328 2011-06-12 21:21:41 <TD> if i was the CEO of PayPal and could go to jail because some front-line employee screwed up and didn't comply with some regulation, I'd make damn sure we were aggressive about enforcement
3329 2011-06-12 21:21:45 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: it has become so, yes
3330 2011-06-12 21:21:45 <aximilation> Trawlen: correct, it's the review and appeal process that SUCKS
3331 2011-06-12 21:21:53 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: so much money in randomly locking accounts for no reason, why not do it?
3332 2011-06-12 21:21:55 <TD> so - blame the patriot act.
3333 2011-06-12 21:21:57 <ArtForzZz> TD: sure
3334 2011-06-12 21:22:05 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: very few people have the press contacts to put pressure to get it reversed
3335 2011-06-12 21:22:06 <ArtForzZz> except when they pull stunts like with me
3336 2011-06-12 21:22:12 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: basically zero risk free money for paypal
3337 2011-06-12 21:22:16 <aximilation> yep
3338 2011-06-12 21:22:20 <BlueMatt> absolutely, so much govt doing stuff that sounds good on paper but never makes sense irl
3339 2011-06-12 21:22:24 <ArtForzZz> freeze account for suspected money laundering
3340 2011-06-12 21:22:24 <TD> ArtForzZz: what did they do to you ?
3341 2011-06-12 21:22:32 pierce has joined
3342 2011-06-12 21:22:33 <ArtForzZz> except in .de a bank *has* to report that to the police
3343 2011-06-12 21:22:36 <ericmock> how much money /is/ paypal sitting on?
3344 2011-06-12 21:22:38 <TD> did they unfreeze it ?
3345 2011-06-12 21:22:41 <ArtForzZz> and a not-a-bank has to, too
3346 2011-06-12 21:22:44 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: millions
3347 2011-06-12 21:22:51 <aximilation> "I want a raise" /push button and screw 5,000 people out of their funds
3348 2011-06-12 21:22:52 <TD> yeah that's pretty common in countries these days
3349 2011-06-12 21:22:53 <ArtForzZz> TD: after my lawyer nicely asked them to
3350 2011-06-12 21:22:56 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: they are known to have seized millions
3351 2011-06-12 21:23:01 <TD> the SAR system is screwed up
3352 2011-06-12 21:23:08 <TD> but again, if they don't do that, they risk being thrown in jail
3353 2011-06-12 21:23:17 <ArtForzZz> basically "provide a copy of the police reoprt, release the funds, or we'll sue"
3354 2011-06-12 21:23:19 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: and you agree to letting them do this by agreeing to their TOS
3355 2011-06-12 21:23:20 <TD> for a looooooooong time
3356 2011-06-12 21:23:20 <ericmock> but I'm just talking about their holdings, not seized holding
3357 2011-06-12 21:23:39 <ericmock> gotta be billions... well, 100's of millions
3358 2011-06-12 21:23:44 <TD> i actually just finished sending a mail to HM Treasury. the UK govt is doing a review of the AML laws
3359 2011-06-12 21:23:44 <ericmock> anyway
3360 2011-06-12 21:23:54 <TD> one of the things they're considering is repealing criminal penalties for non-compliance
3361 2011-06-12 21:23:54 <aximilation> you know they're making bank on the money they hold for people
3362 2011-06-12 21:23:57 <TD> no more jail terms
3363 2011-06-12 21:24:07 <Trawlen> Lets say my account had $200k in it, which would be very unlikely you know BUT. Lets say that, they then locked it. For illegal activities. Would they keep the money, just let it sit there, what?
3364 2011-06-12 21:24:13 <TD> though they should go a lot further, imho
3365 2011-06-12 21:24:22 <ericmock> but here's the thing... why no serious competitor?
3366 2011-06-12 21:24:34 <TD> Trawlen: i think they sit on it
3367 2011-06-12 21:24:35 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: because running that kind of business is a legal nightmare
3368 2011-06-12 21:24:42 <aximilation> people have tried, it's getting adoption
3369 2011-06-12 21:24:43 <Trawlen> there is eric but its a big job what paypal do and it costs a lot of money to run
3370 2011-06-12 21:24:48 <TD> Trawlen: i suspect if they spent money they thought might be the proceeds of crime, again, the directors become liable
3371 2011-06-12 21:24:51 <ericmock> yea, exactly... I think it's just the nature of the business
3372 2011-06-12 21:24:53 lessPlastic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3373 2011-06-12 21:25:06 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: dwolla is trying
3374 2011-06-12 21:25:11 <aximilation> I don't care how good a service is, I've seen dozens, but who is using them?
3375 2011-06-12 21:25:11 <jrmithdobbs> we'll see how that works out
3376 2011-06-12 21:25:15 <ericmock> it's just a flawed business model that happened to catch on
3377 2011-06-12 21:25:16 <BlueMatt> Trawlen: Im sure they make bank on overnight loans on all the money they "sit" on
3378 2011-06-12 21:25:26 <aximilation> I just saw Dwolla this week, looks good
3379 2011-06-12 21:25:28 <BlueMatt> just like any bank or financial institution
3380 2011-06-12 21:25:29 <Trawlen> BlueMatt: It sucks :{
3381 2011-06-12 21:25:31 JRWR has quit ()
3382 2011-06-12 21:25:39 <ericmock> problem with dwolla is its slow... but that removes the risk
3383 2011-06-12 21:25:45 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: definitely. there's no way they're not getting interest on that shit
3384 2011-06-12 21:25:46 <ericmock> for them
3385 2011-06-12 21:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> otherwise they'd be out of business
3386 2011-06-12 21:26:03 <jrmithdobbs> or have stockholders suing them
3387 2011-06-12 21:26:11 <ericmock> does paypal loan money?
3388 2011-06-12 21:26:14 <Trawlen> no
3389 2011-06-12 21:26:26 <aximilation> not to consuers
3390 2011-06-12 21:26:30 <aximilation> *consumers
3391 2011-06-12 21:26:32 <TD> again, i'd be kind of surprised if they did that
3392 2011-06-12 21:26:39 <Trawlen> They have a creditcard dont they?
3393 2011-06-12 21:26:42 <aximilation> I'm sure they invest/loan/do something with the money they have
3394 2011-06-12 21:26:47 <aximilation> Trawlen: they do
3395 2011-06-12 21:26:51 <jrmithdobbs> Trawlen: it's a debit card backed by your paypal balance
3396 2011-06-12 21:26:52 <ericmock> I'm sure cc is tied to some bank though
3397 2011-06-12 21:26:53 <TD> the way the AML laws are written ...... i think if you were to profit from the "proceeds of crime" you yourself become guilty of money laundering
3398 2011-06-12 21:26:55 <Trawlen> Ah
3399 2011-06-12 21:27:00 <BlueMatt> TD: really? any big company that sits on that kind of cash makes a *ton* of money on loans
3400 2011-06-12 21:27:03 <aximilation> no they do have a CC, it may be with a bank
3401 2011-06-12 21:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> Trawlen: they also have a cc that is issued by boa iirc
3402 2011-06-12 21:27:16 <aximilation> I have the debit card and they keep trying to sell me their CC
3403 2011-06-12 21:27:20 <TD> paypal is not a bank and does not issue loans. they may well invest stuff that's held by them, but i guess they'd have to be careful not to do that with money they froze
3404 2011-06-12 21:27:25 <TD> lest they become liable again
3405 2011-06-12 21:27:41 <TD> AML makes doing almost anything legally risky. the more i learn about it, the crazier the regime seems
3406 2011-06-12 21:27:47 <BlueMatt> TD: probably, though money they froze is such a small percent might not make a difference to them
3407 2011-06-12 21:27:58 <TD> todays "crazy-ass fact" about AML is that there are gigantic databases of people (1 million+) who are considered "politically exposed"
3408 2011-06-12 21:28:01 <Trawlen> Well either way, its rediculous how much they control and how little the competitors are doing to challenge them. I hope one day i will have a choice of who i let lock my account and take my money.
3409 2011-06-12 21:28:10 <xelister> BlueMatt: what would you do if USA would declare bitcoin illegal?
3410 2011-06-12 21:28:14 <TD> if you're on such a blacklist financial institutions have to do much deeper background checks on you and your transactions
3411 2011-06-12 21:28:14 <jrmithdobbs> TD: finance/accounting laws from the last ~20-30 years are fucking insane
3412 2011-06-12 21:28:22 <BlueMatt> xelister: not care and ignore the law?
3413 2011-06-12 21:28:27 <xelister> Developers of sofware used for 'illegal' (by usafags definitions) purposes are being arrested
3414 2011-06-12 21:28:39 <aximilation> Trawlen: you can't say competitors aren't doing anything about paypal
3415 2011-06-12 21:28:48 <TD> the best thing about PEP lists is that there's no official list
3416 2011-06-12 21:28:48 <BlueMatt> xelister: same in europe and everywhere else
3417 2011-06-12 21:28:50 <aximilation> they've started business haven't they? Why aren't you using them?
3418 2011-06-12 21:28:53 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: source?
3419 2011-06-12 21:29:00 <xelister> in FR developer got half-year JAILTIME for developing software (used to download some shitty music ignoring DRM or smth like that)
3420 2011-06-12 21:29:02 <TD> the laws define (vaguely) who is considered "politically exposed". then third party companies have to actually build the lists.
3421 2011-06-12 21:29:07 <xelister> jimb0: pasted it some time ago in #btcfn
3422 2011-06-12 21:29:09 <Trawlen> aximilation: Maybe they are, but at the moment there aren't enough sites accepting them to make me want to use it
3423 2011-06-12 21:29:14 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: source?
3424 2011-06-12 21:29:17 <TD> if you use their services and they make a mistake, doesn't matter - you are still liable!
3425 2011-06-12 21:29:21 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: ask guys in #freenet . it was France language article. ask Bombe
3426 2011-06-12 21:29:28 <BlueMatt> xelister: meh fr has rediculous laws on antipiracy, as does the us, but fr is much worse
3427 2011-06-12 21:29:33 <aximilation> and that's the issue of the competitors?
3428 2011-06-12 21:29:39 jostmey has joined
3429 2011-06-12 21:29:39 <BlueMatt> and drm-breaking software falls under that category
3430 2011-06-12 21:29:44 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: no you don't get how this works. you make a claim: it falls on you to back up. I'm not going to hunt down your sources for you.
3431 2011-06-12 21:29:51 <xelister> BlueMatt: yea its surprise how lafrancefags are EVEN WORSE then usa crazy laws
3432 2011-06-12 21:29:54 <aximilation> again it comes down to what people will accept, and what consumers will use
3433 2011-06-12 21:29:54 <xelister> *surprising
3434 2011-06-12 21:29:54 theymos has joined
3435 2011-06-12 21:30:36 <BlueMatt> xelister: meh the laws are terrible but they are all antipiracy, and all relate to breaking of drm
3436 2011-06-12 21:30:37 <aximilation> I want to accept bitcoin for web hosting, but chances are less than 2% of my customers are going to want to pay me with them.
3437 2011-06-12 21:30:53 <BlueMatt> making bitcoin illegal would not involve suing developerse
3438 2011-06-12 21:31:00 <ericmock> I haven't followed the legal issues with paypal since I don't really use it, but it's in a very strange position... is it regulated by anyone at this point? insured? what happens if there's a run on accounts there?
3439 2011-06-12 21:31:01 <BlueMatt> s/e//
3440 2011-06-12 21:31:11 marioxcc has joined
3441 2011-06-12 21:31:16 <BlueMatt> it would mean attacking bitcoin-based businesses and people who trade them
3442 2011-06-12 21:31:18 <aximilation> ericmock: no they're not regulated
3443 2011-06-12 21:31:18 <ericmock> when happens if/when they file for Chapter 11?
3444 2011-06-12 21:31:25 ajf is now known as ajf|offline
3445 2011-06-12 21:31:35 <Trawlen> Only problem with bitcoin right now : its so unstable its impossible to accept it.
3446 2011-06-12 21:31:37 <aximilation> theoretically they have all the money people have deposited, I'm sure they can handle it
3447 2011-06-12 21:31:39 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: some of the recent laws like KYC apply to it (because they were specifically drafted to do so) but most traditional banking laws do not affect bitcoin
3448 2011-06-12 21:31:42 <jrmithdobbs> erm
3449 2011-06-12 21:31:44 <jrmithdobbs> s/bitcoin/paypal/
3450 2011-06-12 21:31:52 <TD> ericmock: paypal is not a bank so there's no such thing as a "run" on it
3451 2011-06-12 21:31:56 <aximilation> paypal is not a bank
3452 2011-06-12 21:32:01 <TD> ericmock: you need fractional reserve banking for that to happen
3453 2011-06-12 21:32:04 <TD> paypal just moves money around
3454 2011-06-12 21:32:11 <TD> lots of AML regs like KYC apply to them
3455 2011-06-12 21:32:13 <ericmock> yea, that's what I thought... but really haven't paid much attention in the last 5 years or so...
3456 2011-06-12 21:32:25 <aximilation> nor can they be regulated by any banking methods, the only things that apply (barely) is standard business regulations
3457 2011-06-12 21:32:32 <xelister> "<BlueMatt> making bitcoin illegal would not involve suing developerse"
3458 2011-06-12 21:32:34 <xelister> how can you be sure
3459 2011-06-12 21:32:44 <ericmock> TD: a run would be a large percentage of people taking money out of the system
3460 2011-06-12 21:32:51 <TD> ericmock: doesn't matter. the money is there.
3461 2011-06-12 21:32:52 ar4s has joined
3462 2011-06-12 21:32:58 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: like KYC and other "banking" laws that were passed as other types of legislation specifically to get around the fact that paypal isn't a bank ;P
3463 2011-06-12 21:33:00 <aximilation> but even that gets iffy, last I saw when you agree to the TOS with paypal you agree to settle all disputes by arbitration and junk like that.
3464 2011-06-12 21:33:01 <ericmock> TD: how do you know?
3465 2011-06-12 21:33:03 <BlueMatt> xelister: anyway, this whole usa is the worst road you keep going down gets old...usa govt makes a shitton of mistakes when it comes to the internet and piracy and such, but as does every other govt in the western world (+china, iran, etc) and Id much rather live there than just about anywhere else
3466 2011-06-12 21:33:05 colpan155 has joined
3467 2011-06-12 21:33:20 <BlueMatt> xelister: anyway, I have to go and no, I cant be sure, but if the past is any indication, it wouldnt
3468 2011-06-12 21:33:28 <BlueMatt> the only software devs who get sued are drm-related
3469 2011-06-12 21:33:29 <ericmock> is all that money liquid?
3470 2011-06-12 21:33:30 <BlueMatt> afaik
3471 2011-06-12 21:33:31 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: yup they having a binding arbitration clause.
3472 2011-06-12 21:33:37 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3473 2011-06-12 21:33:39 <TD> ericmock: FRB involves even more painful sets of regulations. if you can prove they're doing it without following the necessary laws, go for it ....
3474 2011-06-12 21:33:49 <xelister> BlueMattBot: USA is most of the important
3475 2011-06-12 21:33:49 <BlueMattBot> xelister did you mean me? Unknown command 'USA'
3476 2011-06-12 21:33:49 <BlueMattBot> Use 'BlueMattBot: help' to get help!
3477 2011-06-12 21:33:52 <xelister> or more actually
3478 2011-06-12 21:34:06 Teslah has joined
3479 2011-06-12 21:34:08 <xelister> BlueMattBot: die
3480 2011-06-12 21:34:08 <BlueMattBot> xelister did you mean me? Unknown command 'die'
3481 2011-06-12 21:34:08 <BlueMattBot> Use 'BlueMattBot: help' to get help!
3482 2011-06-12 21:34:17 <TD> to prosecute people for writing software, you need a law to do it under
3483 2011-06-12 21:34:25 <TD> in the case of DRM circumvention such laws were actually introduced
3484 2011-06-12 21:34:33 <ericmock> but if paypal is not regulated then how do you know what they're doing with the money they have?
3485 2011-06-12 21:34:33 <ArtForzZz> terrorism.
3486 2011-06-12 21:34:37 <xelister> TD: child porn
3487 2011-06-12 21:34:39 <xelister> TD: rape
3488 2011-06-12 21:34:44 <xelister> TD: genocide
3489 2011-06-12 21:34:46 <TD> ericmock: paypal IS regulated. just not as a bank
3490 2011-06-12 21:34:52 <TD> xelister: what are you talking about?
3491 2011-06-12 21:34:53 <jrmithdobbs> TD: unless you're in the us where "terrorism" and "unauthorized access" get slapped on to all sorts of shit that don't really qualify.
3492 2011-06-12 21:34:55 <xelister> TD: dunno.
3493 2011-06-12 21:35:23 <xelister> TD: Iraq was invaded because "OMG WoMDs!!!1111111" and thousands people and bilions USD went there based on this
3494 2011-06-12 21:35:38 <TD> that has nothing to do with bitcoin. iraq was not taken to court.
3495 2011-06-12 21:35:41 <ericmock> okay, well, people just said they weren't regulated...
3496 2011-06-12 21:35:44 <TD> yes, there's been all kinds of overreach in recent times. the judicial system in most countries, usa included, isn't that far gone though.
3497 2011-06-12 21:35:55 <ArtForzZz> and I thought it was because george jr. did want to finish what daddy started *ducks*
3498 2011-06-12 21:35:59 <xelister> you belive governments, in particular usa gov, actually follows the law, or bends it for whattever shit needed
3499 2011-06-12 21:36:02 <TD> ericmock: they were wrong ..... paypal is a money transmitter. all kinds of regulations apply to those.
3500 2011-06-12 21:36:10 <TD> well, look at it like this
3501 2011-06-12 21:36:19 <xelister> TD: liberty dolar?
3502 2011-06-12 21:36:24 <TD> the patriot act/us govt has introduced AML laws that are quite overreaching in many ways
3503 2011-06-12 21:36:35 <TD> in 2008 the supreme court struck some of them down, narrowing them significantly
3504 2011-06-12 21:36:39 <ArtForzZz> TD: in most of the EU paypal is a bank ;)
3505 2011-06-12 21:36:42 <xelister> "they make round objects, idiots (like us, americans) may mistake them for actuall USA dolars, lets arrest them for forrrr... COUNTERFETING money lol"
3506 2011-06-12 21:36:43 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: we said most BANKING laws dont apply. very different than "completely unregulated"
3507 2011-06-12 21:36:45 <TD> because they were inverting the principle of innocent until proven guilty
3508 2011-06-12 21:36:46 <xelister> TD: ^ true stroy
3509 2011-06-12 21:36:47 <ArtForzZz> but yeah, in the US it's still not-a-bank
3510 2011-06-12 21:36:55 <TD> so in that case, people > govt
3511 2011-06-12 21:37:03 <ArtForzZz> just a money transmitter
3512 2011-06-12 21:37:03 <ericmock> jrmithdobbs: it wasn't you that said it was unregulated.
3513 2011-06-12 21:37:07 <TD> xelister: no, liberty dollar guys got whacked becaues they WERE counterfeiting
3514 2011-06-12 21:37:08 <ericmock> aximilation did
3515 2011-06-12 21:37:15 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: dude you're retarded if you think that's why liberty dollar got shut down
3516 2011-06-12 21:37:18 <xelister> TD: ?
3517 2011-06-12 21:37:21 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3518 2011-06-12 21:37:23 <aximilation> I did, I meant by banking regs
3519 2011-06-12 21:37:24 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: why it was?
3520 2011-06-12 21:37:26 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: liberty dollar got shut down for FRAUD
3521 2011-06-12 21:37:30 <ArtForzZz> yep
3522 2011-06-12 21:37:31 <TD> xelister: the govt showed in front of a court how the guy was introducing his liberty dollar coins into regular circulation and confusing merchants into thinking they were real dollars
3523 2011-06-12 21:37:36 <xelister> ok, more info on this
3524 2011-06-12 21:37:40 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3525 2011-06-12 21:37:47 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: a) the owner did not have enough silver to back his claims because he was too stupid to understand that the price of silver fluctuates == FRAUD
3526 2011-06-12 21:37:54 <aximilation> one of the issues was even using the name "dollar"
3527 2011-06-12 21:37:56 <xelister> TD: wasnt their coins TOTALLY DIFFERENT? where they really trying to confuse them?!
3528 2011-06-12 21:38:00 <xelister> brb
3529 2011-06-12 21:38:01 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: b) the owners ADVOCATED trying to pass them off as real dollars. == FRAUD
3530 2011-06-12 21:38:02 <TD> no, their coins were very similar
3531 2011-06-12 21:38:11 <ArtForzZz> jrmithdobbs: yup
3532 2011-06-12 21:38:15 <phantomcircuit> xelister, liberty dollars was actual fraud
3533 2011-06-12 21:38:20 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: liberty dollars == FRAUD
3534 2011-06-12 21:38:24 <jrmithdobbs> end of story
3535 2011-06-12 21:38:29 <phantomcircuit> xelister, he tried to hide behind it being just another alt currency
3536 2011-06-12 21:38:31 <ArtForzZz> also, coins denominated in $ values that were > 50% higher than the commodity value
3537 2011-06-12 21:38:33 <ericmock> damn Franklin Mint
3538 2011-06-12 21:38:38 <TD> xelister: the prosecutor in that case, specifically stated the prosecution was not about alternative currencies.
3539 2011-06-12 21:38:39 <ArtForzZz> and a MLM on top for fun
3540 2011-06-12 21:38:44 <TD> yeah
3541 2011-06-12 21:38:46 jostmey has left ()
3542 2011-06-12 21:38:48 <TD> eGold gets brought up a lot as well
3543 2011-06-12 21:38:57 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: thats ok, mlms are basically legal these days
3544 2011-06-12 21:39:07 <aximilation> it depends on how the MLM is structured
3545 2011-06-12 21:39:08 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: so long as you never say the word pyramid or ponzi
3546 2011-06-12 21:39:09 <TD> in that case the prosecutors showed that they knew certain accounts were being used by criminals and didn't shut them down effectively enough
3547 2011-06-12 21:39:10 <jrmithdobbs> shit's retarded
3548 2011-06-12 21:39:12 <ArtForzZz> yes, but only if they involve products and not money
3549 2011-06-12 21:39:17 <jrmithdobbs> right
3550 2011-06-12 21:39:30 <ArtForzZz> so it's ... borderline
3551 2011-06-12 21:39:31 <TD> MLM?
3552 2011-06-12 21:39:37 <jrmithdobbs> multilevel marketing
3553 2011-06-12 21:39:39 <ArtForzZz> multi level marketing
3554 2011-06-12 21:39:40 <TD> ah
3555 2011-06-12 21:39:47 <ArtForzZz> aka a ponzi scheme. with products.
3556 2011-06-12 21:39:49 <jrmithdobbs> aka, pyramid schemes / ponzi schemes / amway / mary kay
3557 2011-06-12 21:40:02 <Trawlen> http://images.4chan.org/g/src/1307912623011.png
3558 2011-06-12 21:40:03 <aximilation> meleleuka, mona vie
3559 2011-06-12 21:40:05 <jrmithdobbs> (p sure they'd go after me for libel for that statement so shhh)
3560 2011-06-12 21:40:23 <ArtForzZz> iirc if it doesnt involve products, it's a ponzi and illegal
3561 2011-06-12 21:40:43 simkiss has quit (Quit: simkiss)
3562 2011-06-12 21:40:48 <aximilation> affiliate networking with the downline potential of introducing salespeople below you
3563 2011-06-12 21:40:51 <ArtForzZz> and if the "product" is coins denominated in USD ... uuuuh, very borderline
3564 2011-06-12 21:40:57 <aximilation> ArtForzZz: goods or services
3565 2011-06-12 21:41:05 <aximilation> (IIRC)
3566 2011-06-12 21:41:12 <ArtForzZz> quite possible
3567 2011-06-12 21:41:21 <ArtForzZz> my knowledge of US laws isn't that great
3568 2011-06-12 21:41:25 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3569 2011-06-12 21:41:56 <TD> i think time will tell how this plays about with, eg, mt gox
3570 2011-06-12 21:42:05 pogden has joined
3571 2011-06-12 21:42:18 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
3572 2011-06-12 21:42:19 <TD> they're trying hard to follow AML laws but the regs are so crazy, i'm sure it's possible to construct a case that they don't do it well enough, if you're a prosecutor with an agenda
3573 2011-06-12 21:42:26 <ArtForzZz> yep, sure going to be interesting times ahead
3574 2011-06-12 21:42:30 Marcel has joined
3575 2011-06-12 21:42:58 <ArtForzZz> but I suspect the whole thing would turn into a game of whack-a-mole real quick
3576 2011-06-12 21:43:34 <TD> you mean prosecuting exchanges?
3577 2011-06-12 21:43:37 <ArtForzZz> yep
3578 2011-06-12 21:43:41 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/thUSD/accumulated_orderbook.png < LOL
3579 2011-06-12 21:43:45 * TD is more doubtful
3580 2011-06-12 21:43:49 <TD> exchanges are difficult to set up
3581 2011-06-12 21:43:56 <TD> at least of the mt gox type
3582 2011-06-12 21:44:06 <marioxcc> TD: why so?
3583 2011-06-12 21:44:11 <TD> you need critical mass, trust, ability to make/receive wire transfers which means going through the KYC checks yourself
3584 2011-06-12 21:44:16 <aximilation> I don't see how they can even think of doing anything against it
3585 2011-06-12 21:44:17 dvide has joined
3586 2011-06-12 21:44:24 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: ya it's goods or services see: amway
3587 2011-06-12 21:44:36 welterde has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3588 2011-06-12 21:44:39 <jrmithdobbs> also the various realty groups that do it
3589 2011-06-12 21:44:41 nhodges has joined
3590 2011-06-12 21:44:56 PatrikR has joined
3591 2011-06-12 21:45:16 <TD> the penalties for banks dealing with "questionable customers" are so insane (life in jail) that if there was even a _suggestion_ these exchanges would not be acceptable under AML rules, it'd rapidly become impossible to accept or make bank wires
3592 2011-06-12 21:46:00 <TD> that's, i think, one of the most likely failure modes for bitcoin [exchanges]. the cool thing about these laws, from a governments perspective, is they're so vague you don't need to pass a law making bitcoin illegal, or indeed make any legal judgements at all
3593 2011-06-12 21:46:22 <aximilation> so what's to prevent exchanges from popping up internationally?
3594 2011-06-12 21:46:32 <TD> you can just state an opinion like, "dept XYZ thinks bitcoin is potentially an avenue for terrorist financing" and suddenly banks won't want to know you anymore
3595 2011-06-12 21:46:39 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: still have to comply with regulations in the countries you're trading with
3596 2011-06-12 21:46:47 <jrmithdobbs> aximilation: all of the exchanges are already outside the us
3597 2011-06-12 21:46:48 <aximilation> who?
3598 2011-06-12 21:46:53 <TD> after sept 11th, the US Govt introduced some of these very severe laws, and then stated any country that didn't do the same wouldn't be able to trade with them anymore
3599 2011-06-12 21:46:59 <aximilation> you mean the people interacting with them?
3600 2011-06-12 21:47:00 <TD> so unsurprisingly, most countries now have similar laws
3601 2011-06-12 21:47:12 <TD> this is itself a very concerning and nasty way of playing 'world government'
3602 2011-06-12 21:47:17 dvide_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3603 2011-06-12 21:47:24 <aximilation> that's the feds for ya
3604 2011-06-12 21:47:55 <jrmithdobbs> TD: wonder what would happen if they issued a statement stating the obvious
3605 2011-06-12 21:48:09 <TD> stating what ?
3606 2011-06-12 21:48:13 <jrmithdobbs> TD: eg: stock and commodities markets can be used to finance terrorism
3607 2011-06-12 21:48:20 <jrmithdobbs> == collapse of world economy
3608 2011-06-12 21:48:20 <TD> oh, well, exactly
3609 2011-06-12 21:48:21 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
3610 2011-06-12 21:48:29 <TD> the whole thing is ridiculous
3611 2011-06-12 21:49:00 <TD> where to draw the line around which businesses are regulated and which aren't is entirely arbitrary
3612 2011-06-12 21:49:15 <TD> the UK Govts review of AML laws contains all kinds of absurd justifications
3613 2011-06-12 21:49:27 <jrmithdobbs> i don't see an easy way for them to *really* outlaw bitcoin in a way that will actually hold up in court without completely destroying all commodities and forex markets
3614 2011-06-12 21:49:34 Veladon2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3615 2011-06-12 21:49:39 <jrmithdobbs> not that they wont try
3616 2011-06-12 21:49:57 <TD> well, like i said, they don't have to
3617 2011-06-12 21:50:05 <TD> look at wikileaks. not an illegal organization anywhere
3618 2011-06-12 21:50:06 <ericmock> probably easier to destroy things with FUD
3619 2011-06-12 21:50:14 <TD> however, you can no longer pay them with common payment methods
3620 2011-06-12 21:50:19 <jrmithdobbs> yup
3621 2011-06-12 21:50:28 <jrmithdobbs> wl is the perfect example
3622 2011-06-12 21:50:32 <TD> the reason is the US Gov implied they were "undesirable" or potentially even terrorists, meaning AML compliance kicked in
3623 2011-06-12 21:50:53 <TD> the AML stuff is a really serious civil liberties problem, but most people have never even heard of it because it's all invisible
3624 2011-06-12 21:50:56 <jrmithdobbs> shit's crazy
3625 2011-06-12 21:51:13 <jrmithdobbs> TD: ya AML / KYC really scare the crap out of me
3626 2011-06-12 21:51:16 <TD> i hope the UK Gov does go through with decriminalizing a lot of this stuff
3627 2011-06-12 21:51:19 Joric has joined
3628 2011-06-12 21:51:20 <jrmithdobbs> and I had no idea they existed until getting involved with bitcoin
3629 2011-06-12 21:51:50 <TD> they're saying that by 2012 they might well have changed the law around that. then being found in non-compliance merely costs you your business, potentially all your money, and the ability to ever run a financial firm again.
3630 2011-06-12 21:52:05 <TD> as opposed to going to jail for the rest of your life
3631 2011-06-12 21:52:09 <jrmithdobbs> that still seems overkill
3632 2011-06-12 21:52:13 <jrmithdobbs> but much better than a life sentence
3633 2011-06-12 21:52:20 <TD> yeah. life sentences were never really handed down anyway
3634 2011-06-12 21:52:28 <TD> but having the law changed would give a lot more certainty
3635 2011-06-12 21:52:30 <dissipate> if anyone here is in san diego, there is a bitcoin hackathon going on this saturday: http://bitcoinhackathon.eventbrite.com/
3636 2011-06-12 21:53:38 <TD> http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/consult_money_launder_regs2007_gov_response.pdf
3637 2011-06-12 21:53:43 <TD> that's the uk govts latest document on it all
3638 2011-06-12 21:54:15 <TD> i wrote to them about it. stupidly, the executive summary section says "the threat to the uk from money laundering is significant", then quotes two web sites. the first is a police agency that merely asserts money laundering exists. the second is a 404.
3639 2011-06-12 21:54:21 <TD> presumably the link worked at some point
3640 2011-06-12 21:54:26 maqr has joined
3641 2011-06-12 21:54:26 maqr has quit (Changing host)
3642 2011-06-12 21:54:26 maqr has joined
3643 2011-06-12 21:54:29 <TD> but they don't justify it at all
3644 2011-06-12 21:54:57 <TD> there's big discussions of who should be regulated, eg, estate agents = yes. but letting out apartments = no.
3645 2011-06-12 21:55:19 <jrmithdobbs> but
3646 2011-06-12 21:55:26 <jrmithdobbs> that makes no sense
3647 2011-06-12 21:55:29 Funkytown has joined
3648 2011-06-12 21:55:51 <phantomcircuit> justification is for peons
3649 2011-06-12 21:56:05 marioxcc has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
3650 2011-06-12 21:56:07 prax has joined
3651 2011-06-12 21:56:08 prax has quit (Changing host)
3652 2011-06-12 21:56:08 prax has joined
3653 2011-06-12 21:56:08 <TD> their justifications are: "FATF Recommendations do not allow for Designated Non-Financial Businesses or Professions, such as estate agents, to be exempted from the Regulations. This is because they are deemed to present specific systemic risks."
3654 2011-06-12 21:56:39 <TD> but: "There is evidence that rented property is used for a wide range of criminality, the extent to which property is let specifically to launder money through rental payments is not well documented ..... 8 However regulating letting agents would require the UK to go beyond the requirements of
3655 2011-06-12 21:56:39 <TD> the EU Directive and the Government is committed to not âgold-platingâ EU Directives. "
3656 2011-06-12 21:57:00 <TD> in other words, what gets regulated and what not is basically not decided by the UK Govt at all, but rather by the FATF and EU
3657 2011-06-12 21:57:09 <TD> last i checked, i did not vote on any decisions made by the FATF :-(
3658 2011-06-12 21:57:26 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3659 2011-06-12 21:57:31 <ericmock> you just need to consolidate over there...
3660 2011-06-12 21:57:38 <phantomcircuit> TD, lol yeah welcome to becoming the united states of europe
3661 2011-06-12 21:57:55 <ericmock> 'states' is where the future is
3662 2011-06-12 21:57:58 <ArtForzZz> well, not really
3663 2011-06-12 21:58:47 <ArtForzZz> "just implementing EU regulations" is usually politician for "this will be unpopular, so we'll blame someone else"
3664 2011-06-12 21:58:54 <TD> yes
3665 2011-06-12 21:59:00 <TD> one of the big problems with the way the EU is implemented
3666 2011-06-12 21:59:09 * TD is a fan of european integration in principle but the details usually leave a lot to be desired
3667 2011-06-12 21:59:10 <ArtForzZz> german govt *loves* to pull this
3668 2011-06-12 21:59:33 <ArtForzZz> especially funny if their representantives were the ones pushing said regulation in the first place...
3669 2011-06-12 21:59:37 <ericmock> state governments here do the same...
3670 2011-06-12 21:59:38 <TD> haha
3671 2011-06-12 21:59:39 <TD> yeah
3672 2011-06-12 21:59:50 <ericmock> but at least we vote for federal government
3673 2011-06-12 21:59:50 <TD> ericmock: well, you have more influence over the feds than we do over the eu, i think
3674 2011-06-12 21:59:54 wistiu has joined
3675 2011-06-12 21:59:58 <ArtForzZz> yep
3676 2011-06-12 22:00:00 * TD isn't entirely sure how much influence he has over eu decisions: probably none
3677 2011-06-12 22:00:05 <TD> there's an EU parliament
3678 2011-06-12 22:00:15 <ericmock> aren't their like representatives?
3679 2011-06-12 22:00:17 <TD> but there's also the EU commission. i can never keep straight how they relate or which is more powerful
3680 2011-06-12 22:00:19 <ericmock> elected?
3681 2011-06-12 22:00:21 <ericmock> appointed?
3682 2011-06-12 22:00:22 Mononofu has left ()
3683 2011-06-12 22:00:25 <TD> yes there are elected MEPs
3684 2011-06-12 22:01:04 <TD> the power balance is hard to keep track of. the export of data to the TFTP was voted against by the EU Parliament, but still happened anyway for reasons i forget
3685 2011-06-12 22:01:11 <TD> something to do with deadlines
3686 2011-06-12 22:02:02 <gavinandresen> TD: you know anything about securities law? I'm wondering what would happen if a court somewhere decided bitcoins were securities...
3687 2011-06-12 22:02:15 <ArtForzZz> very very unlikely
3688 2011-06-12 22:02:16 welterde has joined
3689 2011-06-12 22:03:14 <TD> i don't know anything about securities law, no. i think that law student who posted his paper seemed to cover that one.
3690 2011-06-12 22:03:23 <TD> i've been focussed on the AML/KYC laws.
3691 2011-06-12 22:03:44 <TD> they're deep enough to keep me busy for a while. if the Treasury don't write back to me, I might pick my old MP and write to him
3692 2011-06-12 22:03:53 <TD> as an expat I don't get to vote so don't have much influence though
3693 2011-06-12 22:04:03 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
3694 2011-06-12 22:04:13 <gavinandresen> ArtForzZz: what do you think courts will treat bitcoins as? Commodity? Currency?
3695 2011-06-12 22:04:14 <midnightmagic> Hey TD when was the last time you heard from Satoshi?
3696 2011-06-12 22:04:21 sgstair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3697 2011-06-12 22:04:42 <ArtForzZz> gavinandresen: so far, looks like "digital goods"
3698 2011-06-12 22:04:56 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3699 2011-06-12 22:05:14 sgstair has joined
3700 2011-06-12 22:05:41 KingMartin has joined
3701 2011-06-12 22:05:46 marioxcc has joined
3702 2011-06-12 22:05:49 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: so a commodity then? or does that have other implication?
3703 2011-06-12 22:05:51 <jrmithdobbs> s
3704 2011-06-12 22:05:54 <TD> midnightmagic: er, i could look it up. month or two ago i guess.
3705 2011-06-12 22:05:55 <ArtForzZz> not a commodity
3706 2011-06-12 22:06:06 <marioxcc> is there any effort to store the blockchain in a DHT?
3707 2011-06-12 22:06:06 <TD> he doesn't write back anymore. i suspect he doesn't even check his mail now.
3708 2011-06-12 22:06:07 <ArtForzZz> commodity would be valued at market price for book value
3709 2011-06-12 22:06:10 <marioxcc> (not freenet)
3710 2011-06-12 22:06:26 <ArtForzZz> digital goods = 0 book value until sold for fed money
3711 2011-06-12 22:06:35 <midnightmagic> Oh hi gavin.. Question: have you written any other tools or done work to help track what's going on in the network? Tracing funds or what have you? And if so do you intend to publish them?
3712 2011-06-12 22:06:38 <ArtForzZz> aka "hell yes"
3713 2011-06-12 22:06:47 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: why would that be useful when it's currently stored in full on each node?
3714 2011-06-12 22:07:06 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: scalability
3715 2011-06-12 22:07:11 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: no, I haven't written any transaction tracking code.
3716 2011-06-12 22:07:21 <marioxcc> reduced bandwidth usage, etc...
3717 2011-06-12 22:07:36 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Remote host closed the connection)
3718 2011-06-12 22:07:40 <TD> marioxcc: there are lots of other scalability improvements that could be made first
3719 2011-06-12 22:07:41 <ArtForzZz> marioxcc: iirc theres a huge problem with that
3720 2011-06-12 22:07:58 <marioxcc> ArtForzZz: could you please elaborate?
3721 2011-06-12 22:08:15 <ArtForzZz> very easy to "unstore" things from a DHT with only a few 100 nodes
3722 2011-06-12 22:08:17 <gavinandresen> marioxcc: DHT is subject to nasty sybil attacks
3723 2011-06-12 22:08:20 <jrmithdobbs> would seem the problem would be that if too many of the ECC (or whatever you want to call them) copies disappeared then forgery becomes trivial
3724 2011-06-12 22:08:21 <ArtForzZz> yep
3725 2011-06-12 22:08:56 <ArtForzZz> to fix that you pretty much need something like a WoT to secure it
3726 2011-06-12 22:09:20 <marioxcc> well, I haven't heard of any successful atack to the bittorrent DHT
3727 2011-06-12 22:09:20 <jrmithdobbs> which pretty much kills any performance/etc gains you'd get from it in the first place, wouldn't it?
3728 2011-06-12 22:09:27 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
3729 2011-06-12 22:09:33 discHead has quit (Quit: discHead)
3730 2011-06-12 22:09:41 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: because it's not in the user/member's interest to destroy/fake it
3731 2011-06-12 22:09:47 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: not true with money
3732 2011-06-12 22:09:56 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: no really
3733 2011-06-12 22:10:03 <gavinandresen> bittorrent DHT can't be sybil'ed, because you have all the correct hashes to start with from the tracker
3734 2011-06-12 22:10:09 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r710345c3bdce gentoo/net-p2p/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: 0.3.23_rc1 http://tinyurl.com/3z2bflo
3735 2011-06-12 22:10:11 <CIA-31> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r13fdee64ae71 gentoo/net-p2p/ (8 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: correct patch filename http://tinyurl.com/3f9cv5j
3736 2011-06-12 22:10:24 <ArtForzZz> gavinandresen: not sure
3737 2011-06-12 22:10:32 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: makes sense
3738 2011-06-12 22:10:46 bitcoinserb has joined
3739 2011-06-12 22:10:53 <gavinandresen> ArtForzZz: well, technically you COULD sybil it to do denial-of-service... but not fake file blocks
3740 2011-06-12 22:10:57 <ArtForzZz> yeah
3741 2011-06-12 22:10:58 normanrichards has joined
3742 2011-06-12 22:11:05 Funkytown is now known as KingFisher
3743 2011-06-12 22:11:06 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: an attack on the bitcoin DHT would just make clients have to look for blocks elsewhere
3744 2011-06-12 22:11:08 <TD> why does the block chain storage need to change again?
3745 2011-06-12 22:11:10 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: I wrote some basic fund tracking code
3746 2011-06-12 22:11:14 <marioxcc> nobody gets any money from that
3747 2011-06-12 22:11:20 <ArtForzZz> but thats the point, to break the block chain all you need is to "unstore" blocks
3748 2011-06-12 22:11:21 <TD> even at very high transaction rates the chain won't become _that_ big
3749 2011-06-12 22:11:26 <ArtForzZz> no need to fake anything
3750 2011-06-12 22:11:37 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3751 2011-06-12 22:11:38 <ArtForzZz> yep
3752 2011-06-12 22:11:51 bitcoinserb has quit (Client Quit)
3753 2011-06-12 22:11:52 <ArtForzZz> and I suspect bitcoin wont ever see *that* high transaction rates
3754 2011-06-12 22:12:01 <TD> yeah
3755 2011-06-12 22:12:13 <ArtForzZz> easier to layer centralized systems on top
3756 2011-06-12 22:12:14 <gmaxwell> TD: because people love to deploy more technical acronyms at all problems.
3757 2011-06-12 22:12:16 bitcoinserb has joined
3758 2011-06-12 22:12:18 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: There have been some offers to help track down naughty people bandied about and I was hoping to see whether anything had come of it. Have you published your code up somewhere?
3759 2011-06-12 22:12:18 <jrmithdobbs> especially once thin clients start being used by most
3760 2011-06-12 22:12:34 <jrmithdobbs> the storage issue wont matter
3761 2011-06-12 22:14:24 <ArtForzZz> wild-ass guess, bitcoin will either stay niche forever, or end up as a backing currency for currencies issued by centralized payment processors (aka banks)
3762 2011-06-12 22:14:50 <theymos> I think Bitcoin will be used as a backing for Open Transactions.
3763 2011-06-12 22:14:59 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: obviously we need to employ some LDAP referencing with distributed JSON indexed XSLT processing with homomorphic encryption to achieve optimal ERP efficiency. Stat.
3764 2011-06-12 22:15:36 <xelister> theymos: OT are nice arent they
3765 2011-06-12 22:15:42 <xelister> complex thou >_>
3766 2011-06-12 22:15:47 <TD> in the absence of some kind of big crackdown i suspect bitcoin would grow into some kind of niche then stabilize. probably as a competitor to paypal
3767 2011-06-12 22:16:03 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no
3768 2011-06-12 22:16:05 <xelister> TD: some US senatros supposedly want to write law to ban bitcoin
3769 2011-06-12 22:16:09 <TD> but possibly never really becoming a serious threat (eg bitcoin to payl is as linux to windows )
3770 2011-06-12 22:16:18 <TD> *paypal
3771 2011-06-12 22:16:25 <luke-jr> TD: nobody uses Windows anymore
3772 2011-06-12 22:16:32 <ArtForzZz> TD: sounds plausible
3773 2011-06-12 22:16:43 <TD> but who knows, so much depends on politics imho
3774 2011-06-12 22:16:49 <ArtForzZz> well, linux is a serious threat to windows, just not on the desktop ;)
3775 2011-06-12 22:16:54 <TD> i was talking yesterday to a friend who works in KYC compliance at a big auditing firm
3776 2011-06-12 22:16:57 <TD> in london
3777 2011-06-12 22:16:59 <TD> ArtForzZz: right :-)
3778 2011-06-12 22:17:16 <TD> he reckons another banking crisis in europe is right around the corner courtesy of greece/portugal/ireland
3779 2011-06-12 22:17:31 <TD> it's just being delayed at present by a refusal by the ecb to consider default as an option
3780 2011-06-12 22:17:36 <ArtForzZz> possible, but kinda unlikely
3781 2011-06-12 22:17:40 <luke-jr> ArtForzZz: KDE easily beats Windows on the desktop
3782 2011-06-12 22:17:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: can we fix json-rpc to actually be json-rpc instead of json-rpc + broken http/html error codes? ;P
3783 2011-06-12 22:17:45 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: first
3784 2011-06-12 22:17:52 <ArtForzZz> luke-jr: for what?
3785 2011-06-12 22:18:01 <luke-jr> ArtForzZz: everything?
3786 2011-06-12 22:18:05 <TD> argh
3787 2011-06-12 22:18:14 <TD> can we kill -9 the desktop environment flames please
3788 2011-06-12 22:18:21 <TD> windows > kde in market share/userbase
3789 2011-06-12 22:18:26 <TD> let's leave it at that
3790 2011-06-12 22:18:28 <luke-jr> TD: prove it
3791 2011-06-12 22:18:43 <ArtForzZz> yawn
3792 2011-06-12 22:18:49 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: are there bugs filed on json http error codes? I thought I was careful to follow the JSON-2.0 spec on that.
3793 2011-06-12 22:19:08 <ArtForzZz> TD: possible, but imo kinda unlikely
3794 2011-06-12 22:19:19 <TD> ArtForzZz: how so ?
3795 2011-06-12 22:19:35 <ArtForzZz> looks like after some gnashing of teeth .fr and .de are pretty intent on not letting em fail
3796 2011-06-12 22:19:56 <ArtForzZz> mainly because their major banks hold huge parts of the debt
3797 2011-06-12 22:19:59 marioxcc has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
3798 2011-06-12 22:20:00 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: afaict http error codes should never be set, it should always return 200 OK not 500/etc, bitcoind also uses params = [] instead of of params = {}
3799 2011-06-12 22:20:16 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: have you read the JSON-RPC 2.0 spec?
3800 2011-06-12 22:20:23 <TD> right, that's sort of what i was getting at. there's likely to be another "crisis" but not actually bank failure because the ecb will print money to balance the books
3801 2011-06-12 22:20:25 <TD> same thing as last time
3802 2011-06-12 22:20:26 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: no because it's "draft" still
3803 2011-06-12 22:20:36 <ArtForzZz> TD: yup
3804 2011-06-12 22:20:41 <genewitch> my pool seems to be lagging behind by one block, is there something i can set in blkmon's config?
3805 2011-06-12 22:20:54 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: did not know bitcoin was using the 2.0 draft until you just said it
3806 2011-06-12 22:20:59 <ArtForzZz> wouldnt hurt, EUR at 1.5USD is getting boring *g*
3807 2011-06-12 22:21:04 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: ... so you'd like to do something completely different from the draft spec because.....
3808 2011-06-12 22:21:07 <TD> i think after this happens yet again, the zeitgeist of the times will be much more receptive to bitcoin
3809 2011-06-12 22:21:22 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: because there's a 1.x spec already in existance
3810 2011-06-12 22:21:23 bitcoinserb has quit (Quit: bitcoinserb)
3811 2011-06-12 22:21:36 <TD> because people will be like, wait ..... didn't we just have a banking crisis caused by US mortgage debt? and now there's another one caused by greek govt debt? wtf?
3812 2011-06-12 22:21:43 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: I had a full json-2.0 implementation of the RPC interface going, but then noticed none of the libraries supported it. SO backed out. Kept the 2.0 error reporting spec, though, since 1.0 didn't define how errors should be handled.
3813 2011-06-12 22:21:45 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: and it's a much simpler (from cusory look) spec overall that still more than accomadates bitcoin's use
3814 2011-06-12 22:22:24 <TD> so i'm hoping that politicians will be receptive to this, and that'll help shield bitcoin related businesses from the worst of the AML excess
3815 2011-06-12 22:22:29 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: huh? json-rpc.org clearly says errors go in in the error = {} portion of the response
3816 2011-06-12 22:22:36 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: the whole JSON-RPC interface is flawed by design. live with it and help me come up with the replacement wallet protocol :p
3817 2011-06-12 22:22:36 <jrmithdobbs> for 1.0
3818 2011-06-12 22:22:37 guest has joined
3819 2011-06-12 22:23:00 <theymos> The US isn't going to stop printing money any time soon, either. Maybe we'll have a worldwide monetary crisis soon. That'd be great for BTC prices!
3820 2011-06-12 22:23:26 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: are you going to make me hunt down the JSON-HTTP spec and quote it?
3821 2011-06-12 22:23:27 <phantomcircuit> lol
3822 2011-06-12 22:23:35 <phantomcircuit> who runs bitcoincharts?
3823 2011-06-12 22:23:42 <guest> does anyone in here know how to perform BFI_INT patching? I'm having a hard time deciphering the python...
3824 2011-06-12 22:23:43 <theymos> phantomcircuit: tcatm
3825 2011-06-12 22:23:50 <midnightmagic> tcatm
3826 2011-06-12 22:23:53 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: http://json-rpc.org/wiki/specification
3827 2011-06-12 22:23:55 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, i randomly get 502's
3828 2011-06-12 22:23:57 Ellipsis753 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3829 2011-06-12 22:24:10 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: mysqld is a little busy
3830 2011-06-12 22:24:16 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: error - An Error object if there was an error invoking the method. It must be null if there was no error.
3831 2011-06-12 22:24:25 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, throw a memcached in front of that biatch
3832 2011-06-12 22:24:26 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: see http://groups.google.com/group/json-rpc/web/json-rpc-over-http?pli=1 for json-rpc OVER HTTP
3833 2011-06-12 22:24:33 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: already there
3834 2011-06-12 22:24:38 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, lol
3835 2011-06-12 22:24:42 <gavinandresen> ... in particular the chart on what the HTTP results should be.
3836 2011-06-12 22:24:48 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
3837 2011-06-12 22:24:50 <jrmithdobbs> so basically
3838 2011-06-12 22:24:55 <phantomcircuit> i assume you have proper indexes
3839 2011-06-12 22:24:59 <jrmithdobbs> there's 3 or 4 different fucking json-rpc specs
3840 2011-06-12 22:25:25 <jrmithdobbs> in that case, I propose json-rpc be thrown out the window as luke-jr said
3841 2011-06-12 22:25:31 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3842 2011-06-12 22:25:50 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: yep. there's not much room for performance tweaks. I'll probably get a second server that only renders charts
3843 2011-06-12 22:25:52 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: first we need a viable replacement
3844 2011-06-12 22:26:01 <theymos> Maybe we should make a new binary spec just for the Bitcoin API. ;)
3845 2011-06-12 22:26:02 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i know
3846 2011-06-12 22:26:05 <genewitch> why would a pool be one block behind other pools? I have blkmond up... where can i check the actual block it is working on rather than what pushpoold reports (if it even does)
3847 2011-06-12 22:26:26 <luke-jr> theymos: there's already an effort going, albeit slowly; but everyone seems opposed to binary
3848 2011-06-12 22:26:33 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, you should just render charts once per minute
3849 2011-06-12 22:26:42 <luke-jr> theymos: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
3850 2011-06-12 22:27:05 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: well, they are interactive and I'm serving > 3000 concurrent users
3851 2011-06-12 22:27:20 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, ah true
3852 2011-06-12 22:27:24 eamon has joined
3853 2011-06-12 22:27:30 <phantomcircuit> you might be able to do some skeezy javascript
3854 2011-06-12 22:27:37 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: i wasn't attacking your code (or you) btw
3855 2011-06-12 22:27:40 Guest30962 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3856 2011-06-12 22:27:53 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: i seriously did not realise how many different "json-rpc"s there were
3857 2011-06-12 22:27:57 <jrmithdobbs> shit's confusing
3858 2011-06-12 22:28:11 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: understood, and sorry for being testy. Too much time wasted talking to lawyers recently....
3859 2011-06-12 22:28:19 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: I'd love to have javascript charting lib :)
3860 2011-06-12 22:28:32 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, about what?
3861 2011-06-12 22:28:32 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3862 2011-06-12 22:28:35 <eamon> I have a technical question. Using poclbm, is it possible toturn off long polling and check the server every 5 seconds instead?
3863 2011-06-12 22:28:35 wardearia has joined
3864 2011-06-12 22:28:38 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: honestly, the rpc code is one of the cleanest parts of bitcoin atm, btw, haha
3865 2011-06-12 22:28:39 <genewitch> tcatm: you can cache renders elsewhere
3866 2011-06-12 22:28:52 <jrmithdobbs> take that how you will
3867 2011-06-12 22:28:56 <genewitch> tcatm: sounds like you'd be helped by a cloud ;-)
3868 2011-06-12 22:29:15 <eamon> The server I am using uses long polling but it is broken
3869 2011-06-12 22:29:17 <gavinandresen> About whether bitcoin is a commodity or a currency or a security or None of the Above, and whether or not I could be legally liable for working on bitcoin if it is found to be any of the above.
3870 2011-06-12 22:29:19 <midnightmagic> Lawyers? What for gavin? :-( You ok?
3871 2011-06-12 22:29:23 <tcatm> genewitch: nah, I just need to improve the code
3872 2011-06-12 22:29:31 <eamon> can I make my client just check for new work instead?
3873 2011-06-12 22:29:50 <gavinandresen> Oh, and seeing if it makes sense to create a more formal bitcoin organization.
3874 2011-06-12 22:30:04 <theymos> Does it?
3875 2011-06-12 22:30:07 sanity_ has joined
3876 2011-06-12 22:30:41 <gavinandresen> No, it probably doesn't make sense to have one "Bitcoin Foundation"
3877 2011-06-12 22:31:02 <TD> oh? how come?
3878 2011-06-12 22:31:24 <gavinandresen> Better to have smaller organizations dedicated to bitcoin-related things, probably. Less of a legal target, and easier to gain non-profit status. Probably.
3879 2011-06-12 22:31:39 <gavinandresen> ... if I talked to a different lawyer I'd probably get the opposite advice....
3880 2011-06-12 22:31:45 <TD> why would it be hard to get non-profit status?
3881 2011-06-12 22:32:20 <genewitch> TD: globally?
3882 2011-06-12 22:32:21 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3883 2011-06-12 22:32:44 r2k has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3884 2011-06-12 22:32:45 <gavinandresen> Because in the US you have to fit into one of a gazillion categories of non-profits, and it is not clear where bitcoin would fit.
3885 2011-06-12 22:32:55 <TD> seems like Tor is a good template for bitcoin related stuff. in theory tor should be even more legally risky than bitcoin, seeing as bitcoin has all kinds of legitimate benefits even for people who are fully identified, law abiding, etc.
3886 2011-06-12 22:32:59 <TD> oh, right
3887 2011-06-12 22:33:01 <aximilation> "Religious organization"
3888 2011-06-12 22:33:04 <TD> haha
3889 2011-06-12 22:33:11 <TD> i wonder which category the tor foundation is in
3890 2011-06-12 22:33:17 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3891 2011-06-12 22:33:33 <gavinandresen> Yeah, Tor thread the needle, I'll have to look up what they're categorized as...
3892 2011-06-12 22:33:54 <theymos> I like the idea of the Bitcoin "organization" not officially existing. It matches the idea of a distributed network.
3893 2011-06-12 22:33:58 <gavinandresen> Actually one point the lawyer made I thought was pretty good-- why would we want to create a centralized organization when the entire point of bitcoin is decentralization?
3894 2011-06-12 22:34:05 <genewitch> theymos: seconded
3895 2011-06-12 22:34:08 <midnightmagic> NetBSD is also nonprofit
3896 2011-06-12 22:34:19 <genewitch> theymos: it's open source, it already has accountability
3897 2011-06-12 22:34:23 dbitcoin has joined
3898 2011-06-12 22:34:24 <midnightmagic> That would be tremendous credibility in the public eye
3899 2011-06-12 22:34:37 <jrmithdobbs> so an actual dev question
3900 2011-06-12 22:34:37 <TD> well, it probably helps from a PR perspective
3901 2011-06-12 22:34:41 <jrmithdobbs> (shocking)
3902 2011-06-12 22:34:46 mIKEjONES has joined
3903 2011-06-12 22:34:51 <jrmithdobbs> what happens if you send a verack to a <=309 client?
3904 2011-06-12 22:34:56 <jrmithdobbs> Bad Things(tm)?
3905 2011-06-12 22:35:13 <TD> and it gives press more of a contact point. i was kind of amazed at how many times I read "Mt Gox does not list a phone number or street address and did not return our requests for comment" in press stories
3906 2011-06-12 22:35:21 <jrmithdobbs> err 209
3907 2011-06-12 22:35:21 <midnightmagic> It would also allows huge amount of funding to come in from corps/people looking for some tax write-offs
3908 2011-06-12 22:35:30 unclemantis has joined
3909 2011-06-12 22:35:34 * TD was amazed but not surprised, given his previous experiences with the press
3910 2011-06-12 22:35:52 <TD> jrmithdobbs: surely it'd ignore it, same as any other unknown messages
3911 2011-06-12 22:35:55 <gavinandresen> TD: a non-profit dedicated to "dissemination of information about the benefits of decentralized currencies" would be great....
3912 2011-06-12 22:35:57 <forrestv> jrmithdobbs, nothing
3913 2011-06-12 22:36:12 <gavinandresen> TD: ... and has a clear educational purpose...
3914 2011-06-12 22:36:12 <TD> gavinandresen: that'd mean it can't employ you, though, right ?
3915 2011-06-12 22:36:40 <gavinandresen> TD: right.
3916 2011-06-12 22:36:50 <TD> incidentally, does anyone know why the EFF pulled their bitcoin address? they said they were reviewing legal stuff
3917 2011-06-12 22:36:55 <TD> it'd be interesting to find out more
3918 2011-06-12 22:36:58 <gavinandresen> (well, unless they hire me as celebrity spokesmodel, but I look lousy in a bathing suit)
3919 2011-06-12 22:37:13 <jrmithdobbs> so why is there "MUST NOT" implications in the wording of the proto spec in ref to verack to <=208 ?
3920 2011-06-12 22:37:23 <jrmithdobbs> just bad writing i guess?
3921 2011-06-12 22:37:57 <TD> jrmithdobbs: guess so. not sure though.
3922 2011-06-12 22:39:54 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
3923 2011-06-12 22:40:04 <midnightmagic> TD: I thunk they implied it was just a PITA to get dollars out of it and weren't sure how to file it on their taxes anyway
3924 2011-06-12 22:40:41 <phantomcircuit> yeah and they have to be 110% clean
3925 2011-06-12 22:40:53 <phantomcircuit> if one btc was tracked to something drug related they'd be screwed
3926 2011-06-12 22:41:51 <midnightmagic> I've often been grateful i was able to mine pristine coins as much as I have..
3927 2011-06-12 22:43:24 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1KLahQtqDNAXvrjNyfvgSBtAhwco5ZxLp4 < If any of you know the person that hast 432109 BTC in one address now, can you please ask them to cut it out. It's freaking people out.
3928 2011-06-12 22:43:48 <phantomcircuit> yeah no kidding
3929 2011-06-12 22:43:51 <phantomcircuit> it's also stupid
3930 2011-06-12 22:43:52 <gmaxwell> (I notice that txn in also includes the 17000 BTC which lulzsec was claiming responsiblity for)
3931 2011-06-12 22:44:01 <jrmithdobbs> ok so just to make sure, the version-specific gotchas in the p2p protocol are: the >=106 and >=209 version changes, <209 only reads one address per addr, <209 doesn't care about verack (should not vs must not be sent it sounds like), and <31402 needs to not have any timestamp on addr payload
3932 2011-06-12 22:44:01 <cacheson> gmaxwell: I heard that that was mtgox? not sure if it's true though
3933 2011-06-12 22:44:04 <phantomcircuit> a single bit flip in your wallet and shazam you're poor
3934 2011-06-12 22:44:06 <jrmithdobbs> did I miss anything?
3935 2011-06-12 22:44:42 <gmaxwell> cacheson: then (1) mtgox is crazy, and (2) they should disclose that to stop underming confidence in bitcoin. People are pointing to this claiming that its evidence bitcoin has been hacked.
3936 2011-06-12 22:44:47 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3937 2011-06-12 22:45:00 <cacheson> sure, sure
3938 2011-06-12 22:45:07 Sylph has joined
3939 2011-06-12 22:45:19 WakiMiko has joined
3940 2011-06-12 22:45:21 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: probably. You writing an alternative client? I'd just refuse connections from peers with version < 32000
3941 2011-06-12 22:45:24 andzej has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3942 2011-06-12 22:45:54 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: not yet, just making sure I understand things
3943 2011-06-12 22:46:17 ErryDayImHustlin has joined
3944 2011-06-12 22:46:34 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, there aren't any peers with those clients on the network anymore
3945 2011-06-12 22:46:45 <phantomcircuit> also the p2p network needs some work
3946 2011-06-12 22:46:56 <phantomcircuit> like transactions need to be in a dht
3947 2011-06-12 22:47:05 <theymos> There might be a few peers with that version.
3948 2011-06-12 22:47:19 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: there are clients still joinin #bitcoin on freenode.
3949 2011-06-12 22:47:23 <phantomcircuit> theymos, none that are connectable
3950 2011-06-12 22:47:45 <theymos> Why wouldn't they be connectable?
3951 2011-06-12 22:47:51 <phantomcircuit> NAT
3952 2011-06-12 22:48:01 <eamon> is Poclbm-mod still better than poclbm?
3953 2011-06-12 22:48:06 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3954 2011-06-12 22:48:06 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: is the IP txn stuff just going to drop out of the protocol since it's been disabled in reference client?
3955 2011-06-12 22:48:13 <theymos> phantomcircuit: They can still connect out.
3956 2011-06-12 22:48:33 <gmaxwell> hm. Evil plan for profit: (1) Watch for old clients connecting to freenode. (2) Haxor systems. (3) redeem â bitcoins from hosts that have been mining for eons forgotten.
3957 2011-06-12 22:48:54 <phantomcircuit> theymos, yeah i guess
3958 2011-06-12 22:48:56 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: (4) tell lulzsec
3959 2011-06-12 22:49:00 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: (5) lulz
3960 2011-06-12 22:49:17 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
3961 2011-06-12 22:49:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: pretty much what I think happened with that twat they made yesterday tbqh ;P
3962 2011-06-12 22:49:25 <zapnap> ok, so... wicked noob question... but we're trying to learn how getwork works
3963 2011-06-12 22:49:26 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the ip txn stuff isn't secure, so dont implement it
3964 2011-06-12 22:49:26 Marcel has joined
3965 2011-06-12 22:49:31 <zapnap> excuse the naivety btw :)
3966 2011-06-12 22:49:46 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ya I don't think anyone here is going to argue with the comment "it's downright retarded"
3967 2011-06-12 22:49:56 <zapnap> and wondering, when a client calls getwork, does it ever send back results at all if it doesn't think it's found a solution?
3968 2011-06-12 22:50:05 <zapnap> or does it just keep asking for more work in that scenario?
3969 2011-06-12 22:50:11 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: not likely unless they also managed to get the biggest bitcoin address.
3970 2011-06-12 22:50:15 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3971 2011-06-12 22:50:27 njero has joined
3972 2011-06-12 22:50:32 <gmaxwell> Since that 17000 BTC transaction and the 280k one were just used as common inputs.
3973 2011-06-12 22:52:26 ErryDayImHustlin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3974 2011-06-12 22:54:39 <TD> hmm davout claims that big address is mt gox
3975 2011-06-12 22:54:50 cryptocnt has joined
3976 2011-06-12 22:54:53 <TD> that's a ton of coins sitting in the exchange if so
3977 2011-06-12 22:55:03 <ArtForzZz> sounds plausible
3978 2011-06-12 22:55:33 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: I'd like to completely drop that code, yes.
3979 2011-06-12 22:56:10 <nanotube> TD: well if you aggregate all the sells on the orderbook, plus estimate the potential spare funds... not unreasonable
3980 2011-06-12 22:56:28 <ArtForzZz> yep
3981 2011-06-12 22:56:38 <Wuked> TD is Daveout on IRC ?
3982 2011-06-12 22:56:39 <nanotube> that said... hard to say whether it is or is not, without seeing some evidence, and/or confirmation from mtux
3983 2011-06-12 22:56:40 <eps> ;;bc,mtgox
3984 2011-06-12 22:56:41 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":24.99,"low":10.25,"vol":149738,"buy":19.511,"sell":19.55,"last":19.55}}
3985 2011-06-12 22:56:45 <TD> no, he said that on the forums
3986 2011-06-12 22:56:52 <Wuked> O.K thanks
3987 2011-06-12 22:56:57 * TD hopes mt gox does not get hacked
3988 2011-06-12 22:57:09 <TD> its reliance on PHP does not re-assure me
3989 2011-06-12 22:57:12 Joric has quit ()
3990 2011-06-12 22:57:32 <nanotube> its reliance on having my money sitting not in my wallet, is what bothers me most. :)
3991 2011-06-12 22:57:51 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
3992 2011-06-12 22:57:57 <eps> ;;bc,stats
3993 2011-06-12 22:58:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130380 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 659 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 21 hours, 55 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 830231.63575653
3994 2011-06-12 22:58:18 <xelister> TD: it would if it would work with Sony lolz
3995 2011-06-12 22:58:40 <guest> what's wrong with php?
3996 2011-06-12 22:58:47 <ArtForzZz> nothing
3997 2011-06-12 22:58:55 <ArtForzZz> the problem isn't with php, but with bad php coders
3998 2011-06-12 22:59:14 <guest> that's what I thought :D
3999 2011-06-12 22:59:18 <gavinandresen> it is easy to be lazy in php, though
4000 2011-06-12 22:59:21 <ArtForzZz> yep
4001 2011-06-12 22:59:31 <Wuked> Did you look at the php front end that got released
4002 2011-06-12 22:59:34 <Wuked> for pushpool ?
4003 2011-06-12 22:59:38 <ArtForzZz> php is nearly as bad as vb6 at attracting bad coders *ducks*
4004 2011-06-12 22:59:47 <TD> hmm, the forum seems to have fallen over again
4005 2011-06-12 23:00:01 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: no any interpretter that has security updates as often as php does has problems in itself not just in it's users
4006 2011-06-12 23:00:04 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
4007 2011-06-12 23:00:09 <wistiu> man 7% of all bitcoins transferred while mtgox is down
4008 2011-06-12 23:00:12 <wistiu> somethin weird is happenin
4009 2011-06-12 23:00:21 huk has quit ()
4010 2011-06-12 23:00:24 <TD> the number of breakins to big sites in the past months is pretty disturbing
4011 2011-06-12 23:00:27 <ArtForzZz> huh?
4012 2011-06-12 23:00:38 <ArtForzZz> mtgox aint down
4013 2011-06-12 23:00:53 <wistiu> they were down earlier
4014 2011-06-12 23:01:00 <ArtForzZz> well, partially
4015 2011-06-12 23:01:07 <iz> TD: lots of stuff gets hacked in the summer, usually
4016 2011-06-12 23:01:08 <rlifchitz> wistiu: the 400,000 BTC transfer IS mtgox
4017 2011-06-12 23:01:34 <Wuked> $8m ?
4018 2011-06-12 23:01:34 <wistiu> yes i know
4019 2011-06-12 23:01:37 <Wuked> nice transfer
4020 2011-06-12 23:01:38 <Wuked> :)
4021 2011-06-12 23:01:41 <wistiu> something very weird is going on
4022 2011-06-12 23:01:48 <ArtForzZz> nah
4023 2011-06-12 23:01:48 <Wuked> what did they put on the transaction fee?
4024 2011-06-12 23:01:49 <wistiu> were they hacked and had to move the btc?
4025 2011-06-12 23:01:49 <Wuked> 0.01 ?
4026 2011-06-12 23:01:55 <Wuked> :P
4027 2011-06-12 23:02:06 <TD> that's what it'd look like if mt gox got hacked and the wallet was stolen, yes
4028 2011-06-12 23:02:14 badmanu has quit (Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
4029 2011-06-12 23:02:19 denisx has joined
4030 2011-06-12 23:02:25 <ArtForzZz> it'slo what it looks like moving coins to a new wallet
4031 2011-06-12 23:02:35 <iz> that's also what it'd look like if they wanted to consolidate many accounts into one
4032 2011-06-12 23:02:41 flexis has quit ()
4033 2011-06-12 23:02:42 <iz> r/accounts/addrs
4034 2011-06-12 23:02:44 <ArtForzZz> like, when the old one is slow as fuck because it contains 10000s of transactions
4035 2011-06-12 23:02:44 <TD> it hasn't been spent though
4036 2011-06-12 23:03:06 <TD> i'd expect to see that tx immediately be spent if there was lots of trading going on
4037 2011-06-12 23:03:06 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4038 2011-06-12 23:03:47 <TD> according to their charts there was no trading for a while now (since yesterday?)
4039 2011-06-12 23:03:52 kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4040 2011-06-12 23:03:54 <ArtForzZz> TD: well... yeah
4041 2011-06-12 23:03:54 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4042 2011-06-12 23:04:17 Nesetalis has joined
4043 2011-06-12 23:04:17 <TD> forum is dead
4044 2011-06-12 23:04:36 <ArtForzZz> yup
4045 2011-06-12 23:04:44 <Wuked> so all it's going to take
4046 2011-06-12 23:04:50 <Wuked> is somone to hack mtgox
4047 2011-06-12 23:04:57 <Wuked> transfer that to another wallet
4048 2011-06-12 23:05:01 <Wuked> delete the wallet
4049 2011-06-12 23:05:11 <Wuked> and then 7% of the currency is lost forever?
4050 2011-06-12 23:05:23 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|Sleep
4051 2011-06-12 23:05:34 <TD> or for a wallet move operation to go wrong, etc ;)
4052 2011-06-12 23:05:53 exe_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4053 2011-06-12 23:05:57 <Wuked> sounds like a plot for the next batman movie
4054 2011-06-12 23:06:08 gruez has joined
4055 2011-06-12 23:06:10 <TD> i think the fact that 7% of the currency is sitting in an exchange says a lot, really. it'll take a while for bitcoin to move beyond this heavily speculative stage.
4056 2011-06-12 23:07:51 <Wuked> well
4057 2011-06-12 23:07:58 D0han_ is now known as D0han
4058 2011-06-12 23:08:03 <Wuked> how much $ as a % is in the stock market ?
4059 2011-06-12 23:08:58 <TD> i have no clue
4060 2011-06-12 23:09:04 <phantomcircuit> TD, a very large % of USD is sitting in around doing fuck all
4061 2011-06-12 23:09:14 MILF has joined
4062 2011-06-12 23:09:32 <wistiu> well its nearly all being lent out
4063 2011-06-12 23:09:37 <phantomcircuit> of the total USD money supply of ~ 12 trillion USD only 2 trillion is in cash and only 4 is in checking accounts
4064 2011-06-12 23:09:38 <Wuked> yeah
4065 2011-06-12 23:09:40 <Wuked> 150 times over
4066 2011-06-12 23:10:26 <genewitch> SPECULATIVE!
4067 2011-06-12 23:11:10 operhiem1 has left ()
4068 2011-06-12 23:11:19 dubbz82 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4069 2011-06-12 23:12:14 <ius> guest: Did you take a look at the instruction reference?
4070 2011-06-12 23:12:26 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4071 2011-06-12 23:12:46 <ius> You should be able to work it out then. The original instruction being patched is amd_bitalign I think. Or bytealign.
4072 2011-06-12 23:12:49 <ius> Ref: http://developer.amd.com/sdks/AMDAPPSDK/assets/AMD_Evergreen-Family_Instruction_Set_Architecture.pdf
4073 2011-06-12 23:13:23 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
4074 2011-06-12 23:13:26 <ius> Wuked: Yeah the opensource pool code is worrysome. Typical example of the 'problem' that haunts PHP ;)
4075 2011-06-12 23:13:31 <midnightmagic> TD I think there are a pile of merchants who would love to be able to take another payment method that they don't have to pay so much as credit cards to use, and entails none of the risk.
4076 2011-06-12 23:13:45 <midnightmagic> TD once it can be used simply and easily by a normal person, it'll really take off.
4077 2011-06-12 23:13:53 <TD> ?
4078 2011-06-12 23:14:02 <TD> this is going back to the niche discussion?
4079 2011-06-12 23:14:02 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4080 2011-06-12 23:14:33 <midnightmagic> TD: you said it will take a while to move past the speculative stage..
4081 2011-06-12 23:14:44 <TD> oh, right
4082 2011-06-12 23:14:53 <TD> bitcoin entails lots of risk
4083 2011-06-12 23:14:58 <TD> it's just FX risk instead of chargeback risk
4084 2011-06-12 23:15:23 <TD> and, i guess, "getting hacked" risk, though at least in the USA that is pretty much the same as e-banking security is so woeful
4085 2011-06-12 23:15:57 <Wuked> yeah but if you lose your CC card in the US then you have recorse
4086 2011-06-12 23:16:30 Nicksasa has quit (Sleep!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Quit: BNC Failed.)
4087 2011-06-12 23:16:39 xtalmath has joined
4088 2011-06-12 23:16:45 <xtalmath> ;;bc,stats
4089 2011-06-12 23:16:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130385 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 654 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 832180.24719539
4090 2011-06-12 23:18:14 mosi has quit (sjopping!~mos@dongs.dtegaming.com|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4091 2011-06-12 23:18:36 dbitcoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4092 2011-06-12 23:19:09 Nicksasa_ has joined
4093 2011-06-12 23:19:12 vokoda has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4094 2011-06-12 23:19:13 dbitcoin has joined
4095 2011-06-12 23:19:26 Nicksasa_ is now known as Nicksasa
4096 2011-06-12 23:19:55 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|Sleep
4097 2011-06-12 23:20:14 <Wuked> wow
4098 2011-06-12 23:20:29 <Wuked> I'm sure that estimated diff change in 5 weeks
4099 2011-06-12 23:20:32 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4100 2011-06-12 23:20:33 <Wuked> only a few days ago !
4101 2011-06-12 23:21:32 Maged has joined
4102 2011-06-12 23:22:02 maqr has joined
4103 2011-06-12 23:22:02 maqr has quit (Changing host)
4104 2011-06-12 23:22:02 maqr has joined
4105 2011-06-12 23:22:08 B0g4r7 has joined
4106 2011-06-12 23:23:34 DukeOfURL has joined
4107 2011-06-12 23:24:55 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
4108 2011-06-12 23:25:05 Marcel has joined
4109 2011-06-12 23:27:21 <TD> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jun/12/bitcoin-online-currency-us-government
4110 2011-06-12 23:27:49 amiller has joined
4111 2011-06-12 23:27:49 mmoya has joined
4112 2011-06-12 23:30:13 <gruez> halp
4113 2011-06-12 23:30:17 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4114 2011-06-12 23:30:25 <gruez> Notice: Undefined variable: sourcedir in /var/www/bitcoin/smf/index.php on line 54 Warning: require_once(/QueryString.php) [function.require-once]: failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/bitcoin/smf/index.php on line 54 Fatal error: require_once() [function.require]: Failed opening required '/QueryString.php' (include_path='.:/usr/share/php:/usr/share/pear') in /var/www/bitcoin/smf/index.php on line 54
4115 2011-06-12 23:30:25 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4116 2011-06-12 23:31:28 <wistiu> is sourcedir defined in your config
4117 2011-06-12 23:31:37 <xelister> TD: "An odd alliance of libertarians, geeks, businesspeople and drug kingpins" - Im a bit surprised guardian.co.uk would say that ;)
4118 2011-06-12 23:31:48 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4119 2011-06-12 23:31:51 <TD> they're still the press
4120 2011-06-12 23:32:05 <TD> i liked the part how satoshi is an "anonymous japanese computer science student"
4121 2011-06-12 23:32:27 devrandom has joined
4122 2011-06-12 23:32:37 <xelister> TD: btw I can reveal ID of satoshi for 20 btc
4123 2011-06-12 23:32:50 <gruez> lol
4124 2011-06-12 23:32:50 <luke-jr> TD: that article's picture is not going to help XD
4125 2011-06-12 23:32:51 <gruez> nope
4126 2011-06-12 23:33:04 <xelister> well ok, for a movie character that matches Satoshi's attributes like 1 to 200,000,000
4127 2011-06-12 23:33:07 <TD> i wonder where they got the picture from
4128 2011-06-12 23:33:30 <xelister> which picture you talk about?
4129 2011-06-12 23:33:34 <xelister> the coin?
4130 2011-06-12 23:33:43 <TD> yeah
4131 2011-06-12 23:33:54 <xelister> what is speciall about it??
4132 2011-06-12 23:34:04 <luke-jr> this article is a bomb
4133 2011-06-12 23:34:34 <wistiu> bitcoin bitfcoin bitcoin bitcoin
4134 2011-06-12 23:34:54 <TD> the story isn't that bad i guess. it's sort of garbled in places but hits the basic points - that there's lots of legitimate trading, that privacy is attractive to ordinary people too, that it's a way to get stability from "national economic crises and reckless bankers"
4135 2011-06-12 23:35:04 llama has joined
4136 2011-06-12 23:38:11 <benlake> the bit about "they like it because it is not other things" was super lame
4137 2011-06-12 23:38:14 * TD wishes the silk road threads had been banned from the forums though
4138 2011-06-12 23:38:26 <TD> yet another reason to split the forums from the main site
4139 2011-06-12 23:38:36 <xelister> TD: why banned?
4140 2011-06-12 23:38:41 <luke-jr> TD: "untaxable" and "untraceable" are wrong and damaging
4141 2011-06-12 23:38:41 <xelister> most of you people here are druggies
4142 2011-06-12 23:38:58 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: seriously. why do they keep saying this?
4143 2011-06-12 23:39:01 <TD> where do you think the senators/press found out about silk road? it's not like they advertise anywhere except the forums
4144 2011-06-12 23:39:03 <xelister> I bet TD is druggie, so is luke-jr and also nathan7 take drugs from time to time. Actually, most people I know take drugs like 90%
4145 2011-06-12 23:39:16 <TD> uh huh. please quit trolling xelister, it gets old.
4146 2011-06-12 23:39:19 <jrmithdobbs> TD: i found out about silk road outside of the forums.
4147 2011-06-12 23:39:25 <jrmithdobbs> TD: so, not necessarily.
4148 2011-06-12 23:39:28 <TD> where from ?
4149 2011-06-12 23:39:28 <xelister> TD: no trolling here, 90% people use drugs
4150 2011-06-12 23:39:29 <luke-jr> xelister: sorry, you live in a sad world of delusion
4151 2011-06-12 23:39:31 <xelister> especially alcohol
4152 2011-06-12 23:39:37 <luke-jr> alcohol isn't a drug
4153 2011-06-12 23:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> TD: rather not say
4154 2011-06-12 23:39:45 <luke-jr> (not that I consume alcohol)
4155 2011-06-12 23:39:47 <xelister> luke-jr: of course it is
4156 2011-06-12 23:39:53 <jrmithdobbs> TD: publically logged channel and all.
4157 2011-06-12 23:40:04 <xelister> alcohol is stronger narcotic then marihuana
4158 2011-06-12 23:40:10 <jrmithdobbs> um
4159 2011-06-12 23:40:18 <xelister> go read Lancet or Nature or other scientific papers
4160 2011-06-12 23:40:19 <jrmithdobbs> neither alcohol nor marijuana are narcotics
4161 2011-06-12 23:40:28 <luke-jr> xelister: seriously, get a clue
4162 2011-06-12 23:40:39 <jrmithdobbs> and alcohol is a drug
4163 2011-06-12 23:40:44 <jrmithdobbs> whether you like it or not.
4164 2011-06-12 23:40:47 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: according to many governments marijuana is narcotic, while alcohol is not. Which is simply not true
4165 2011-06-12 23:40:47 <ArtForzZz> jrmithdobbs is right
4166 2011-06-12 23:41:01 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: narcotic is a medical term. marijuana is not one.
4167 2011-06-12 23:41:03 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: period.
4168 2011-06-12 23:41:05 <ArtForzZz> thats because lawmakers don't understand medical terms
4169 2011-06-12 23:41:10 <xelister> luke-jr: we have a clue, stfu noob or cite some scientific source for your claims
4170 2011-06-12 23:41:18 <iz> lol
4171 2011-06-12 23:41:36 <ArtForzZz> but yeah, 90% sounds about right
4172 2011-06-12 23:41:43 <xtalmath> luke-jr: of course alcohol is a drug. here in belgium july first smoking tobacco will be banned in cafes but not drinking. in our dense nation traffic accidents is one of the major causes of death. 3rd person smoking deaths are much rarer than 3rd person alcoholism deaths... why? belgium generates a lot of money with beers but not with tobacco
4173 2011-06-12 23:41:43 <jrmithdobbs> sounds a bit low
4174 2011-06-12 23:41:46 <jrmithdobbs> even
4175 2011-06-12 23:41:52 <ArtForzZz> probably way low if you also count caffeine ;)
4176 2011-06-12 23:42:06 <luke-jr> xtalmath: alcoholism != alcohol
4177 2011-06-12 23:42:07 <iz> is sugar a drug?
4178 2011-06-12 23:42:09 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: and capscasin
4179 2011-06-12 23:42:23 <ArtForzZz> iz: probably not
4180 2011-06-12 23:42:23 <jrmithdobbs> (active ingredient that causes the "heat" in chiles)
4181 2011-06-12 23:42:33 <iz> ArtForzZz: why not?
4182 2011-06-12 23:42:34 <ArtForzZz> jrmithdobbs: yup, I know
4183 2011-06-12 23:42:38 <xtalmath> luke-jr sorry, I meant alcohol deaths. not alcoholism deaths
4184 2011-06-12 23:42:47 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: figured you did, others might not though ;P
4185 2011-06-12 23:42:51 <xelister> well
4186 2011-06-12 23:42:57 <xelister> 1st sentence of wikipedia says it all
4187 2011-06-12 23:43:00 <luke-jr> xtalmath: o rly? who ever heard of someone dying from mere alcohol?
4188 2011-06-12 23:43:01 <xelister> "The term narcotic (pronounced /nÉrËkÉtɨk/) originally referred medically to any psychoactive compound with any sleep-inducing properties. In the United States of America it has since become associated with opioids, commonly morphine and heroin and their derivatives, such as hydrocodone. The term is, today, imprecisely defined and typically has negative connotations.[1] When used in a legal context in the US, a narcotic drug is simply one that
4189 2011-06-12 23:43:03 <xelister> is totally prohibited, or one that is used in violation of strict governmental regulation, such as PCP or marijuana."
4190 2011-06-12 23:43:03 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForzZz: i mean, someone did just call pot a narcotic.
4191 2011-06-12 23:43:18 <xtalmath> luke-jr traffic accidents, not the driver.
4192 2011-06-12 23:43:32 <luke-jr> xtalmath: traffic accidents != alcohol
4193 2011-06-12 23:43:46 <ArtForzZz> what?
4194 2011-06-12 23:43:48 <xelister> luke-jr: yea? try metanol. Take a bottle or two. Tell us how you fell. if you still have your eyesight
4195 2011-06-12 23:43:51 <ArtForzZz> green != alpaca
4196 2011-06-12 23:43:54 <luke-jr> xelister: no thanks
4197 2011-06-12 23:43:56 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: so it explicitly says your use of the word is wrong and you're using that to cite to say that it is correct?
4198 2011-06-12 23:43:59 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: wtf
4199 2011-06-12 23:44:01 <xelister> or was it ethanol
4200 2011-06-12 23:44:03 <xtalmath> drunk drivers who are not alcoholic but are drunk at the moment of driving
4201 2011-06-12 23:44:09 <xtalmath> pedant
4202 2011-06-12 23:44:16 <jrmithdobbs> also, lol @ citing wikipedia for scientific terms
4203 2011-06-12 23:44:28 <luke-jr> xtalmath: drunk = alcoholic
4204 2011-06-12 23:44:32 <xelister> ok but even assuming luke-jr means normal digestable well 'good' alcohols, still alcohol speeds up dying eg liver failure. A LOT
4205 2011-06-12 23:44:32 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
4206 2011-06-12 23:44:40 <xelister> luke-jr: tell me anyone that died from ganja
4207 2011-06-12 23:44:41 <ArtForzZz> so basically "law makers are misusing a medical term, therefore the wrong use is correct" ?
4208 2011-06-12 23:44:59 <xelister> and "I am an airplane, woooooo" doesn't caunt as death from ganja, just reckless use
4209 2011-06-12 23:45:07 <iz> xelister: is sugar considered a drug?
4210 2011-06-12 23:45:16 <ArtForzZz> iz: generally, no.
4211 2011-06-12 23:45:18 <xelister> iz: sugar does not cause hallucinations
4212 2011-06-12 23:45:18 <jrmithdobbs> iz: no
4213 2011-06-12 23:45:22 <xtalmath> luke-jr: do you sincerely believe you have more chance of killing someone by lighting a cigarette than by drinking a beer?
4214 2011-06-12 23:45:23 <xelister> alcohol does
4215 2011-06-12 23:45:29 <iz> why is alcohol a drug but sugar isn't?
4216 2011-06-12 23:45:44 <xelister> iz: alcohol makes you see thinks that are not there and impares your judgment
4217 2011-06-12 23:45:46 <ArtForzZz> I think the difference is you don't need drugs for survival
4218 2011-06-12 23:45:47 <jrmithdobbs> iz: it has clearly mind altering affects
4219 2011-06-12 23:45:50 <xelister> so its psychoactive substance
4220 2011-06-12 23:45:52 <xelister> suggar is not
4221 2011-06-12 23:45:57 <luke-jr> xtalmath: irrelevant. lighting a cigarette always does harm, even if it doesn't kill
4222 2011-06-12 23:45:57 <jrmithdobbs> iz: and no caloric value
4223 2011-06-12 23:45:57 <iz> sugar high will have mind altering effects
4224 2011-06-12 23:46:03 <jrmithdobbs> err s/caloric/nutritional/
4225 2011-06-12 23:46:07 <xelister> unless you eat like 10 kg of it or have a bag of it fall on your head
4226 2011-06-12 23:46:07 <iz> and will cause health problems from over use
4227 2011-06-12 23:46:08 <xtalmath> i actually believe sugar and sex and love are also drugs... but our body has much more experience coping with them
4228 2011-06-12 23:46:09 <luke-jr> xtalmath: different people have different alcohol tolerance levels
4229 2011-06-12 23:46:15 <jrmithdobbs> iz: that is pretty much the definition of "drug"
4230 2011-06-12 23:46:15 <xtalmath> genetically speaking
4231 2011-06-12 23:46:29 <ArtForzZz> well, if you call everything that causes a endorphine reaction a drug, then yes, sugar is a drugbreath
4232 2011-06-12 23:46:31 <xelister> iz: it does not make you see things that are not there
4233 2011-06-12 23:46:35 <xelister> or pass out
4234 2011-06-12 23:46:41 <iz> if you eat enough sugar, you get high
4235 2011-06-12 23:46:47 <xelister> in normal use, without some speciall illness etc
4236 2011-06-12 23:46:50 <luke-jr> xelister: alcohol doesn't affect your mind unless drunk to excess, AFAIK
4237 2011-06-12 23:46:50 <iz> also if you drink you don't always hallucenate or pass out
4238 2011-06-12 23:46:55 <ArtForzZz> if you work out enough, you get high
4239 2011-06-12 23:46:59 <jrmithdobbs> iz: no you don't, you get fat
4240 2011-06-12 23:47:07 <ArtForzZz> that too
4241 2011-06-12 23:47:15 <iz> jrmithdobbs: heard of diabetes?
4242 2011-06-12 23:47:17 <ArtForzZz> if you hold your breath, you get high ;)
4243 2011-06-12 23:47:19 <xelister> luke-jr: well all drugs have the same property, if you take too litle your mind and judgment is not affected
4244 2011-06-12 23:47:23 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
4245 2011-06-12 23:47:30 <xelister> iz: diabetes is an illness, not fault of suggar
4246 2011-06-12 23:47:31 <jrmithdobbs> iz: type 2 diabetes is not "getting high"
4247 2011-06-12 23:47:46 <xtalmath> bitcoin is a drug
4248 2011-06-12 23:47:49 <iz> no, but it's a negative health effect from doing the sugar drug
4249 2011-06-12 23:47:53 <xtalmath> dollars are drugs
4250 2011-06-12 23:47:57 <xtalmath> gaming too
4251 2011-06-12 23:48:00 <xelister> same as eating a peanut is not drug, even if you have allergy to it causing you to pass out
4252 2011-06-12 23:48:01 <iz> like liver damage is a negative health effect from alcohol
4253 2011-06-12 23:48:08 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is the perfect drug. Massless and yet it still effects your mind.
4254 2011-06-12 23:48:11 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: actually there is pretty good research indicating that it DIRECTLY correlates to glucose (and glucose precursors such as refined grains) intake
4255 2011-06-12 23:48:42 <luke-jr> xelister: afaik, taking ANY amount of drugs is chemically addictive
4256 2011-06-12 23:48:58 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: decades of research, in fact
4257 2011-06-12 23:49:00 <ArtForzZz> errr.. what?
4258 2011-06-12 23:49:10 <xelister> iz: what is your point. To me drugs == chemical substances clauding people's judgment on biochemical level. And USA are idiots for not seeing that both ganja AND ALCOHOL have this property, and its stupid to treat them in so different way
4259 2011-06-12 23:49:10 <luke-jr> (the degree of addictiveness ofc proportional to the amount consumed)
4260 2011-06-12 23:49:13 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: not true
4261 2011-06-12 23:49:18 <ArtForzZz> luke-jr: depends on what you define as drugs
4262 2011-06-12 23:49:39 <iz> xelister: have you read about the US and prohibition?
4263 2011-06-12 23:49:55 <iz> read up on wikipedia and that might help clear things up for you
4264 2011-06-12 23:50:05 <xelister> iz: a bit. it seem it was fucking stupid of thing to do by the US. and now (and most of 1st world countries) do the same with innocent ganja
4265 2011-06-12 23:50:15 <jrmithdobbs> this conversation has veered too far into the retarded
4266 2011-06-12 23:50:15 <ArtForzZz> dihidrogen monoxide is damn addictive, withdrawal is 100% lethal! *ducks*
4267 2011-06-12 23:50:21 <xelister> iz: yea Is did read
4268 2011-06-12 23:50:27 <ArtForzZz> jrmithdobbs: agreed
4269 2011-06-12 23:50:27 <xtalmath> luke-jr: proportional to amount consumed? I bet you still analyse any signal with superposition and fourier analysis...
4270 2011-06-12 23:50:28 <midnightmagic> Asimov? Is that you!?
4271 2011-06-12 23:50:45 <xtalmath> yep full retard discussion lets quit it
4272 2011-06-12 23:50:54 <iz> ArtForzZz: also evil corporations have been dumping dihydrogen monoxide directly into the oceans and rivers!
4273 2011-06-12 23:51:07 <ArtForzZz> iz: yeah, a scandal!
4274 2011-06-12 23:51:18 <ArtForzZz> it's also gotten into nearly the whole food supply
4275 2011-06-12 23:51:18 diki has quit ()
4276 2011-06-12 23:51:42 <ArtForzZz> btw, is there #bitcoin-offtopic already? ;)
4277 2011-06-12 23:51:43 <xtalmath> ArtForzZz: and children are even born trippin on dihidrogen monoxide
4278 2011-06-12 23:52:02 <ArdaXi> People all over the world are drinking dihydrogen monoxide!
4279 2011-06-12 23:52:05 has joined
4280 2011-06-12 23:52:20 <ArdaXi> Most of them don't even know.
4281 2011-06-12 23:52:24 <xtalmath> the minority of dihydrogen monoxide abusers has become the majority
4282 2011-06-12 23:52:38 <sipa> ban DHMO!
4283 2011-06-12 23:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> ban DMT!
4284 2011-06-12 23:52:57 <xelister> iz: what is your point? what to look for in that article
4285 2011-06-12 23:53:04 <jrmithdobbs> prevent death! ban DMT!
4286 2011-06-12 23:53:12 <sipa> dmt?
4287 2011-06-12 23:53:21 <jrmithdobbs> it's a tryptamine
4288 2011-06-12 23:53:22 <ArdaXi> Dimethyltryptamine.
4289 2011-06-12 23:53:29 <xtalmath> its even a side product of airplanes burning fuel, DHMO chem trails
4290 2011-06-12 23:53:32 <xelister> exceseeve dihidrogen monoxide intake causes deaths.
4291 2011-06-12 23:53:34 <ArtForzZz> yep
4292 2011-06-12 23:53:39 <xtalmath> DMT is truly the most beautiful drug.
4293 2011-06-12 23:53:39 <iz> xelister: just that the US tried to ban alcohol like a drug and it didn't work.. like.. huge public failure.. so.. it's tax and regulate it w/ ATF
4294 2011-06-12 23:53:43 <ArdaXi> What about all the carbon in our food?
4295 2011-06-12 23:53:47 <xelister> maybe we should write that faggot senator
4296 2011-06-12 23:53:52 <jrmithdobbs> occurs naturally in most living creatures. it's released at time of death and is what causes the hallucinations described by people with "neard death experiences"
4297 2011-06-12 23:54:02 <ArtForzZz> also, the much touted "clean" hydrogen fuel cell produces large amounts of DHMO
4298 2011-06-12 23:54:04 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: Nerd death experiences?
4299 2011-06-12 23:54:11 <jrmithdobbs> (it actually, oddly, IS banned in the US, lol)
4300 2011-06-12 23:54:18 <jrmithdobbs> (so we're all in violation)
4301 2011-06-12 23:54:19 <xtalmath> and a clear proof of nonproportionality of amount consumed, resistance builds up within minutes and you have to wait half an hour at least to try it again...
4302 2011-06-12 23:54:30 <jrmithdobbs> s/neard/near/
4303 2011-06-12 23:54:46 <iz> imho.. acid > dmt
4304 2011-06-12 23:54:58 <ArdaXi> jrmithdobbs: It's banned internationally.
4305 2011-06-12 23:55:01 <xtalmath> in the middle ages people were tortured with dihydrogen monoxide being forced into their mouths with beakers untill their stomachs ripped
4306 2011-06-12 23:55:02 <ArdaXi> By the UN
4307 2011-06-12 23:55:13 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: wasn't aware of that. that's even funnier.
4308 2011-06-12 23:55:13 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4309 2011-06-12 23:55:17 <sipa> it is a cooling fluid in nuclear reactors!
4310 2011-06-12 23:55:27 <jrmithdobbs> ArdaXi: I demand a nuclear holocost to solve the world's dmt problems!
4311 2011-06-12 23:55:31 <ArdaXi> DMT is classified as a Schedule I drug under the UN 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances, meaning that use of DMT is supposed to be restricted to scientific research and medical use and international trade in DMT is supposed to be closely monitored. Natural materials containing DMT, including ayahuasca, are explicitly not regulated under the 1971 Psychotropic Convention.
4312 2011-06-12 23:55:33 <jrmithdobbs> holocaust
4313 2011-06-12 23:55:40 <sipa> it's a major component of acid raid!
4314 2011-06-12 23:55:49 <xelister> sipa: rain?
4315 2011-06-12 23:55:56 <sipa> dhmo
4316 2011-06-12 23:56:04 <iz> acid raid kills bugs dead!
4317 2011-06-12 23:56:05 <ArtForzZz> yep
4318 2011-06-12 23:56:06 <ArdaXi> xelister: I find acid raid sounds a lot more threatening.
4319 2011-06-12 23:56:07 <sipa> rain, yes
4320 2011-06-12 23:56:08 <xelister> ah dhmo
4321 2011-06-12 23:56:24 <xelister> dhmo was being used on guantamo prisoners in torture
4322 2011-06-12 23:56:35 fmetro has joined
4323 2011-06-12 23:56:41 <xelister> dhmo was used in tiny amounts by chinese since senturies to torture prisoners too
4324 2011-06-12 23:56:46 <xelister> *cent-
4325 2011-06-12 23:56:47 <xtalmath> of source all the homeopaths are poisoning people with DHMO
4326 2011-06-12 23:57:02 <xtalmath> xelister: lol
4327 2011-06-12 23:57:10 <sipa> it causes burning wounds in gaseous form!
4328 2011-06-12 23:57:23 <xelister> it can destroy pipes in low temperature
4329 2011-06-12 23:57:28 <ArtForzZz> and millions of people are exposed to it in the workplace
4330 2011-06-12 23:57:32 <ArdaXi> DHMO has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer pations.
4331 2011-06-12 23:57:39 <ArdaXi> *patients
4332 2011-06-12 23:57:51 <xelister> milions of dinosaurs died in dhmo
4333 2011-06-12 23:58:02 <xtalmath> a prominent communist was murdered (by other communists) with a cone of DHMO in solid form, such that after melting no evidence of any weapon remained...
4334 2011-06-12 23:58:02 <xelister> may it be what killed them??
4335 2011-06-12 23:58:15 <ArdaXi> It is fatal if inhaled, and accelerates the corrosion and rusting of many metals.
4336 2011-06-12 23:58:24 <OneFixt> oh no, i just drank something and i think it had dhmo in it
4337 2011-06-12 23:58:26 <OneFixt> what do i do?
4338 2011-06-12 23:58:34 <xelister> we really should write that faggot senator to ban dhmo
4339 2011-06-12 23:58:38 <ArdaXi> OneFixt: Prepare your last words.
4340 2011-06-12 23:58:41 <xtalmath> all known life forms suffer from DHMO exposure
4341 2011-06-12 23:58:58 <xelister> dhmo was found in excessive amounts in Fukushima!!!
4342 2011-06-12 23:59:17 <ArtForzZz> yep
4343 2011-06-12 23:59:22 <ArdaXi> xelister: It almost caused a nuclear meltdown.
4344 2011-06-12 23:59:25 <sipa> insidde the reactor core even
4345 2011-06-12 23:59:27 <xtalmath> apparently the tsunami contained large amounts of DHMO
4346 2011-06-12 23:59:33 <ArtForzZz> yep
4347 2011-06-12 23:59:39 <ArtForzZz> and dhmo was a large contributor to the hydrogen explosions
4348 2011-06-12 23:59:48 <jrmithdobbs> dhmo really is the root of all evil.
4349 2011-06-12 23:59:49 * sipa zZzZ
4350 2011-06-12 23:59:55 <ArdaXi> http://pastebin.com/42a1XGp6
4351 2011-06-12 23:59:56 <jrmithdobbs> without dhmo there would be no evil.
4352 2011-06-12 23:59:57 <xelister> dhmo destroyed many submarines and ships during WW II