1 2011-06-14 00:00:03 <jgarzik> cosurgi: BBE is down
2 2011-06-14 00:00:10 <jgarzik> gribble pulls data from that
3 2011-06-14 00:00:22 <cosurgi> ok
4 2011-06-14 00:01:34 mvd7793 has joined
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6 2011-06-14 00:02:06 <cosurgi> somebody is ddosing everying related to bitcoin, or what?
7 2011-06-14 00:02:16 <cosurgi> all pools, block explorer
8 2011-06-14 00:02:20 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
9 2011-06-14 00:02:46 <mvd7793> Hello! I have a mtgox API question. I'm doing curl -d POST "https://mtgox.com/code/getFunds.php?name=user&pass=pass" -k (replacing user and pass with my correct information) and keep getting {"error":"Not logged in."} returned. Any ideas?
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14 2011-06-14 00:05:17 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r468e6803cd0a supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/plugin.py: GPG: properly handle parting when using multiple channels for gpg auth http://tinyurl.com/5ro3eab
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16 2011-06-14 00:05:38 <lessPlastic> Is it possible that the speculated DDoS going on is simply an extra load of people who have found out about bitcoins?
17 2011-06-14 00:06:06 <cuddlefish> lessPlastic: no
18 2011-06-14 00:06:32 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19 2011-06-14 00:06:32 <cuddlefish> unless they have terribly misconfigured browsers
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28 2011-06-14 00:08:13 <midnightmagic> ddos against whom?
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45 2011-06-14 00:30:41 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
46 2011-06-14 00:30:42 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
47 2011-06-14 00:30:52 <muffinz> ;;bc, stats
48 2011-06-14 00:30:52 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
49 2011-06-14 00:31:14 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
50 2011-06-14 00:31:15 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
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58 2011-06-14 00:40:16 <shLONG> hey is it possible using the bitcoin client to check if an address i've been given is real?
59 2011-06-14 00:40:26 <shLONG> id guess not, id just have to believe it I guess
60 2011-06-14 00:40:44 <shLONG> a receiving address
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63 2011-06-14 00:43:06 <denisx> shLONG: you can check if it is valid at least
64 2011-06-14 00:43:48 malaimo has joined
65 2011-06-14 00:44:31 <spirals> shLONG: send a tiny transaction to it?
66 2011-06-14 00:45:32 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r9ba7972e590a gentoo/net-p2p/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/{bitcoind,wxbitcoin}: 0.3.23 http://tinyurl.com/3mjl33n
67 2011-06-14 00:47:13 <[Tycho]> There may be an RPC command for that.
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69 2011-06-14 00:51:09 <shLONG> denisx: whats the command to check if its valid?
70 2011-06-14 00:51:56 <denisx> bitcoind validateaddress
71 2011-06-14 00:52:02 <shLONG> cool :D
72 2011-06-14 00:52:08 <shLONG> how long does it take to return generally?
73 2011-06-14 00:52:48 hachque has joined
74 2011-06-14 00:53:16 <shLONG> does it ask the network or does it do some kind of crypto checksum
75 2011-06-14 00:53:43 <GarrettB> shLONG: should be quick
76 2011-06-14 00:53:49 <GarrettB> it's completely local
77 2011-06-14 00:56:13 <shLONG> awesome
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85 2011-06-14 01:01:49 <Guest77803> Have a look: http://bitcoin.dyndns.info/bt/
86 2011-06-14 01:01:58 Guest77803 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
87 2011-06-14 01:03:54 <elly> that has expected value (0.50 * 0 + 0.40 * 1.7 + 0.1 * 2.4) = 0.92
88 2011-06-14 01:04:10 malaimo has joined
89 2011-06-14 01:05:41 <upb> heh, mtgox cookie can be used from a different ip
90 2011-06-14 01:05:43 <upb> pretty sad
91 2011-06-14 01:06:24 <jrmithdobbs> upb: why? no reason to make people roaming networks have problems
92 2011-06-14 01:06:40 <jrmithdobbs> timeout is fast enough it doesn't much matter
93 2011-06-14 01:06:53 <upb> ah true its like 5 min or smth
94 2011-06-14 01:07:16 <upb> but have you seen an online bank where you can do this?
95 2011-06-14 01:07:29 <jrmithdobbs> boa
96 2011-06-14 01:07:31 <upb> i know any in this country arent like that
97 2011-06-14 01:07:35 <upb> heh wow
98 2011-06-14 01:07:48 <jrmithdobbs> most in fact
99 2011-06-14 01:07:57 <jrmithdobbs> seriously not an issue so long as sessions timeout properly
100 2011-06-14 01:08:11 <jrmithdobbs> otherwise some mobile carrier networks wont ever be able to use your site and such
101 2011-06-14 01:08:20 <upb> true
102 2011-06-14 01:09:01 <upb> but the session timeout only mitigates the case when the user isnt using the site actively
103 2011-06-14 01:09:42 <jrmithdobbs> is there an xss site issue you know about? because otherwise, seriously doesn't matter
104 2011-06-14 01:09:48 Xunie has joined
105 2011-06-14 01:09:51 <jrmithdobbs> s/site //
106 2011-06-14 01:11:29 <upb> no i dont know of a specific xss issue
107 2011-06-14 01:12:11 <shLONG> where can i find a reference of all the JSON functions?
108 2011-06-14 01:12:27 takezo420 has quit (Quit: takezo420)
109 2011-06-14 01:12:42 <samr7> --> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
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111 2011-06-14 01:13:37 <shLONG> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
112 2011-06-14 01:13:37 <shLONG> ty
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115 2011-06-14 01:16:25 <shLONG> how do i check the return values of validateaddress in php
116 2011-06-14 01:16:41 <shLONG> im new to php and im confused as to how you check a return type of 3 values
117 2011-06-14 01:18:32 <jrmithdobbs> it's stream output not a function return
118 2011-06-14 01:18:44 <jrmithdobbs> so, just like parsing a file
119 2011-06-14 01:19:08 <shLONG> can you throw me an example in priv chat pls?
120 2011-06-14 01:19:43 <shLONG> or mebes link me to something? :S
121 2011-06-14 01:20:23 Optimo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
122 2011-06-14 01:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=php+file+parsing
123 2011-06-14 01:21:16 <shLONG> ty
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126 2011-06-14 01:28:15 <mrenouf> Did I miss much? Fun 11 hr days...
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131 2011-06-14 01:30:52 <Nesetalis> how can you configure bitcoind to put its account/wallet information in another place?
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142 2011-06-14 01:37:58 <shLONG> right ive got my bitcoin deamon running but i cant connect to it via json; is there something special i need to do?
143 2011-06-14 01:39:40 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
144 2011-06-14 01:39:47 <gjs278> set an rpcusername and password
145 2011-06-14 01:39:52 <gjs278> and then just connect through your browser
146 2011-06-14 01:39:55 <gjs278> with that info
147 2011-06-14 01:40:04 <shLONG> yay it works now
148 2011-06-14 01:40:18 <shLONG> i changed the port and hadnt restarted deamon
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151 2011-06-14 01:41:55 <darbsllim> kreal- you around?
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158 2011-06-14 01:46:51 <shLONG> $data = $bitcoin->validateaddress($recvaddr);
159 2011-06-14 01:46:51 <shLONG> if($data['isvalid'] = false)
160 2011-06-14 01:47:00 <shLONG> waaah :( whats wrong with this check
161 2011-06-14 01:47:05 <shLONG> == doesnt work either
162 2011-06-14 01:48:15 <shLONG> ah i needed "
163 2011-06-14 01:48:16 <shLONG> fixed
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168 2011-06-14 01:50:24 <shLONG> nope still doesnt work :(
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174 2011-06-14 01:52:47 <shLONG> any help? :(
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179 2011-06-14 01:55:44 <Lachesis> shLONG
180 2011-06-14 01:55:48 <Lachesis> two equals signs
181 2011-06-14 01:56:02 <Lachesis> who runs the bitcoin.org site now?
182 2011-06-14 01:56:02 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
183 2011-06-14 01:56:23 <Lachesis> is there any chance we can get the forums robots file to blacklist "Print Topic" results to search engines?
184 2011-06-14 01:56:47 <Lachesis> shlong how does if($data['isvalid'] == false) fail?
185 2011-06-14 01:56:55 <Lachesis> oh, and is false a keyword in php? or is False or something?
186 2011-06-14 01:57:17 <Lachesis> ah, it's case insensitive
187 2011-06-14 01:57:34 <Lachesis> although you really don't want "if($data['isvalid'] == false)"
188 2011-06-14 01:57:44 <Lachesis> you want "if(!$data['isvalid'])"
189 2011-06-14 01:59:31 hachque has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
190 2011-06-14 01:59:37 <shLONG> still doesnt work :(
191 2011-06-14 02:00:02 hachque has joined
192 2011-06-14 02:00:02 <jgarzik> ArtForz: I trust you've seen this... http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14910.0
193 2011-06-14 02:00:15 <jgarzik> ArtForz: I'm definitely interested in a PCIe mining board
194 2011-06-14 02:00:21 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
195 2011-06-14 02:00:45 <jgarzik> Lachesis: well, forum.bitcoin.org is sirius-m (and theymos?)
196 2011-06-14 02:01:01 <jgarzik> Lachesis: gavin and others can change the front page, which is hosted @ SF
197 2011-06-14 02:01:06 <shLONG> why the hell is php so obscure
198 2011-06-14 02:01:07 <Lachesis> jgarzik, cool
199 2011-06-14 02:01:13 <Lachesis> shLONG, how does it fail?
200 2011-06-14 02:01:17 <Lachesis> what error message?
201 2011-06-14 02:01:24 <shLONG> nothing
202 2011-06-14 02:01:39 <shLONG> it just doesnt return true when the address is valid
203 2011-06-14 02:01:39 <Lachesis> does it follow the wrong branch? does it fail to run? what's the problem?
204 2011-06-14 02:01:51 <shLONG> it follows false when its meant to be true
205 2011-06-14 02:01:54 <Lachesis> what does echo $data['isvalid'] do?
206 2011-06-14 02:02:10 <shLONG> good idea
207 2011-06-14 02:02:18 <shLONG> 1
208 2011-06-14 02:02:30 <Lachesis> for a valid address or a invalid one?
209 2011-06-14 02:02:35 <Lachesis> err
210 2011-06-14 02:02:36 <shLONG> for a valid one
211 2011-06-14 02:02:38 <Lachesis> ok
212 2011-06-14 02:02:41 <Lachesis> now try an invalid one
213 2011-06-14 02:03:04 <shLONG> same
214 2011-06-14 02:03:07 <Lachesis> well
215 2011-06-14 02:03:09 <Lachesis> there's your problem
216 2011-06-14 02:03:14 <Lachesis> where is data['isvalid'] getting set?
217 2011-06-14 02:03:21 <shLONG> $data = $bitcoin->validateaddress($recvaddr);
218 2011-06-14 02:03:34 <Lachesis> print the whole data structure
219 2011-06-14 02:03:46 <Lachesis> print_r($data);
220 2011-06-14 02:04:04 <Lachesis> and what are your two addresses?
221 2011-06-14 02:04:14 <Lachesis> just want to make sure one of them is actually invalid :)
222 2011-06-14 02:04:14 hachque has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
223 2011-06-14 02:04:56 <Lachesis> ;;seen sirius-m,
224 2011-06-14 02:04:57 <gribble> I have not seen sirius-m,.
225 2011-06-14 02:04:58 <shLONG> Array ( [isvalid] => )
226 2011-06-14 02:04:58 <Lachesis> ;;seen sirius-m
227 2011-06-14 02:04:59 <gribble> sirius-m was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 2 hours, 42 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <sirius-m> sipa: it's updated already?
228 2011-06-14 02:05:17 <shLONG> 14qYPyX8L898gQhCze3aPMkF7EQJC7ESxw - valid
229 2011-06-14 02:05:31 <shLONG> take a char out of it and it should be invalid
230 2011-06-14 02:05:40 johnnympereira5 has joined
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232 2011-06-14 02:08:15 <shLONG> just makes no sense, why would it return a struct like that
233 2011-06-14 02:08:22 dubious has joined
234 2011-06-14 02:08:59 <upb> var_dump it out
235 2011-06-14 02:09:25 <upb> iirc print_r doesnt allow you to differentiate between null and ''
236 2011-06-14 02:09:46 <shLONG> array(1) { ["isvalid"]=> bool(false) }
237 2011-06-14 02:09:55 <shLONG> so it thinks the address is invalid :
238 2011-06-14 02:10:05 <shLONG> but when i check via command prompt
239 2011-06-14 02:10:07 <shLONG> it is valid
240 2011-06-14 02:10:16 <upb> so read the code of the function
241 2011-06-14 02:10:28 <shLONG> ?
242 2011-06-14 02:10:38 <upb> the function that returns this array to you
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245 2011-06-14 02:11:13 <shLONG> OH SHIT
246 2011-06-14 02:11:15 <shLONG> I KNOW WHY
247 2011-06-14 02:11:19 <upb> see what it sends and receives, see whether theres any differences to what youre doing manually
248 2011-06-14 02:11:20 <shLONG> im "" around it
249 2011-06-14 02:11:22 <upb> heh
250 2011-06-14 02:11:34 <shLONG> BUGGER
251 2011-06-14 02:11:52 <shLONG> well it works now
252 2011-06-14 02:11:59 <shLONG> but i learnet a lot
253 2011-06-14 02:12:13 <shLONG> im sure that debugging help will come in handy in future too :D
254 2011-06-14 02:12:16 <shLONG> tyx
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272 2011-06-14 02:31:33 <Lachesis> what's the status of IPv6 support in bitcoin?
273 2011-06-14 02:32:09 <Lachesis> actually nm; l4d2 time :)
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280 2011-06-14 02:40:30 <IoWn3rU> is the ticker working finally?
281 2011-06-14 02:42:45 <jrmithdobbs> wait a minute
282 2011-06-14 02:43:13 Joric has joined
283 2011-06-14 02:43:21 <jrmithdobbs> looking at gavin's b58encode in bitcointools ... looks like he was having the same problem I am and cheated
284 2011-06-14 02:44:01 <jrmithdobbs> and stuffs the ending remainder onto the front of the string after the encode loop
285 2011-06-14 02:44:07 <jrmithdobbs> is that what has to be done?
286 2011-06-14 02:44:16 <Detritus> btc -> mtgox -> dwolla -> amazon -> cat food
287 2011-06-14 02:44:39 <Detritus> Opps wrong tab
288 2011-06-14 02:44:55 <jrmithdobbs> (ending remainder encoded, obviously)
289 2011-06-14 02:44:58 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
290 2011-06-14 02:45:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130649 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 390 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 16 hours, 5 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 843694.97199947
291 2011-06-14 02:46:15 <jrmithdobbs> holy crap
292 2011-06-14 02:46:22 <jrmithdobbs> bitcoinj does the exact same thing
293 2011-06-14 02:46:38 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
294 2011-06-14 02:46:53 <jrmithdobbs> did i seriously just waste 4 hours in gdb and then adding #ifdef DEBUG code for nothing
295 2011-06-14 02:47:41 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: do you have an example of that?
296 2011-06-14 02:49:16 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: ping
297 2011-06-14 02:50:02 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/b58.wtf.txt
298 2011-06-14 02:50:59 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: lines in question: bitcoinj: s.insert(0, ALPHABET.charAt(bi.intValue())); bitcointools: result = __b58chars[long_value] + result
299 2011-06-14 02:51:27 <jrmithdobbs> how the fuck does satoshi's code work? it clearly does not do this in base58.h
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302 2011-06-14 02:52:15 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: no I ment an address that demostrated the problem I oculd try with my code.
303 2011-06-14 02:52:33 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: reproducable with any binary data
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306 2011-06-14 02:53:16 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: my code is sticking what ends up as the first char in satoshi's code as the last char
307 2011-06-14 02:53:33 Guest82864 is now known as bikcmp
308 2011-06-14 02:53:34 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: oh well my code seems to produce the right address string for now. I was thinking you found a special case I might have mised
309 2011-06-14 02:53:44 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: looks like bitcoinj/bitcointools would too if they didn't do that
310 2011-06-14 02:54:17 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: yours published?
311 2011-06-14 02:54:38 <jrmithdobbs> cause I'm seriously confused by satoshi's code now
312 2011-06-14 02:55:09 <lfm> not well, I could put a fresh copy up I spoze but who knows if its any easier to follow than any other. it is just plain C tho
313 2011-06-14 02:55:24 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: so's mine, haha
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320 2011-06-14 03:00:14 <jrmithdobbs> holy shit, just figured it out
321 2011-06-14 03:00:15 <jrmithdobbs> lol
322 2011-06-14 03:00:19 <jrmithdobbs> OBO is fun
323 2011-06-14 03:00:32 nefario has joined
324 2011-06-14 03:02:22 <jrmithdobbs> was looking at the wrong portion of the damned code
325 2011-06-14 03:02:43 <jrmithdobbs> encoding was right, final endian swap was OBO which makes perfect sense now that I know
326 2011-06-14 03:02:46 <jrmithdobbs> lol
327 2011-06-14 03:03:34 wolfspraul has joined
328 2011-06-14 03:03:44 <lfm> ya they are numbers with least significant part to right
329 2011-06-14 03:03:55 <jrmithdobbs> no I understand that
330 2011-06-14 03:04:17 <jrmithdobbs> was -1'ing a counter that was at the right value not +1 from where it should be ;P
331 2011-06-14 03:04:29 <lfm> oh ok
332 2011-06-14 03:04:38 <jrmithdobbs> on my final reverse_inplace() call ;P
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337 2011-06-14 03:18:15 <shLONG> is it possible to delete transaction logs from the bitcoin daemon
338 2011-06-14 03:19:03 <shLONG> or is it possible to setup two accounts on one daemon and supply a recieve address for each account
339 2011-06-14 03:19:13 <shLONG> so I can maintain two different balances
340 2011-06-14 03:20:35 <shLONG> as far as I can tell, all new addresses deposit into my main address
341 2011-06-14 03:20:41 GarrettB has joined
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345 2011-06-14 03:21:49 <samr7> shLONG, each acct is separate, but the gui displays the aggregate balance
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350 2011-06-14 03:24:33 <upb> jrmithdobbs: hah, i noticed that the session id is not regenerated on session expire )
351 2011-06-14 03:24:53 <jrmithdobbs> upb: send MagicalTux an email
352 2011-06-14 03:24:55 <upb> so even though the site doesnt allow session fixation via url
353 2011-06-14 03:25:07 <upb> everyone is using the same sid until they close their browsers
354 2011-06-14 03:25:10 <jrmithdobbs> upb: he may actually be aware, he has some big backend changes coming
355 2011-06-14 03:25:11 tauri has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
356 2011-06-14 03:25:16 <upb> oh
357 2011-06-14 03:25:22 <jrmithdobbs> (inherited code atm)
358 2011-06-14 03:25:24 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r75885be34c9c supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/ (5 files): OTCWebsite: stuff all user inputs through htmlentities/html_entity_decode, to thwart html/js injection. http://tinyurl.com/3g762yr
359 2011-06-14 03:25:46 <shLONG> samr7: well I supplied a recieve address for deepbit and recieved 0.4btc, when checking my accounts the 0.4btc didnt end up in my recieve address it ended up in my main address?
360 2011-06-14 03:26:22 vikarti has joined
361 2011-06-14 03:26:45 <samr7> shLONG, try using the listreceivedbyaccount RPC
362 2011-06-14 03:27:47 Twoheaded has joined
363 2011-06-14 03:28:59 <Joric> what happens on the 100th address? are they looped?
364 2011-06-14 03:29:21 BitVector has quit (Quit: .)
365 2011-06-14 03:29:38 <Joric> i'm worrying about the old copy of a wallet
366 2011-06-14 03:30:56 <MagicalTux> [12:24:20] <upb> jrmithdobbs: hah, i noticed that the session id is not regenerated on session expire ) <- I improved that a bit, now :)
367 2011-06-14 03:31:21 <jrmithdobbs> upb: told ya ;P
368 2011-06-14 03:31:35 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
369 2011-06-14 03:31:57 <sanity> my stupid genetic algorithm is currently expecting the price to drop to $13, at which point it will buy
370 2011-06-14 03:32:15 <alystair> lol @ genetic algo applied to market situations
371 2011-06-14 03:32:17 <sanity> i need to stop watching it so closely, it is bad for my blood pressure
372 2011-06-14 03:32:38 <sanity> alystair: oh? do elaborate please...
373 2011-06-14 03:32:48 <lfm> sanity: how much money does it have to play with? grin
374 2011-06-14 03:33:04 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: a lot.
375 2011-06-14 03:33:41 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
376 2011-06-14 03:33:57 <upb> MagicalTux: good :)
377 2011-06-14 03:34:29 <sanity> lfm: not a lot
378 2011-06-14 03:35:03 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: shhh just say a lot it's more fun
379 2011-06-14 03:35:37 <sanity> i wish it was a lot because over the last few days it has beaten the market by about 30%
380 2011-06-14 03:35:52 glassresistor has joined
381 2011-06-14 03:35:56 <sanity> but that could be a fluke, who knows
382 2011-06-14 03:35:57 <Joric> looks like key pool tops-up with 100 new keys after every 100 transactions, am i right?
383 2011-06-14 03:35:59 <upb> what does it have as inputs btw if its not a secret ?
384 2011-06-14 03:36:09 <jrmithdobbs> mtgox data of course
385 2011-06-14 03:36:18 <jrmithdobbs> or whatever market
386 2011-06-14 03:36:20 <upb> yes but is it just order fills
387 2011-06-14 03:36:29 <upb> or also bid/ask sizes
388 2011-06-14 03:36:44 <sanity> when i did my PhD on GAs with the currency markets, they were competing against much more sophisticated trading algorithms than appear to be active on MtGox right now
389 2011-06-14 03:36:55 dubious has quit (Quit: Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
390 2011-06-14 03:37:53 <sanity> the real advantage of these systems for markets though is that they tend to encourage market stability, which Bitcoin seems to need
391 2011-06-14 03:40:10 <sanity> upb: the inputs are various, mtgox data, bitcoin transaction data (ie. when bitcoins are moved into accounts that seem to be linked to mtgox)
392 2011-06-14 03:40:24 <sanity> upb: the last one seems to be very predictive of sell-offs, surprise surprise
393 2011-06-14 03:40:39 <sanity> upb: but it would be unfair not to give it every available advantage
394 2011-06-14 03:41:11 <Joric> could anyone explain how many keypairs a wallet have? how often i should make backups?
395 2011-06-14 03:41:45 <sanity> upb: the mtgox data includes everything that mtgox provides, including all current open orders
396 2011-06-14 03:41:54 <Joric> i don't quite understand what's happening with keypairs currently
397 2011-06-14 03:42:19 <sanity> Joric: you can create lots of keypairs, ideally one for every transaction you do
398 2011-06-14 03:42:38 <Joric> continue, kind sir
399 2011-06-14 03:42:43 <sanity> Joric: they are like accounts that can send and/or receive money
400 2011-06-14 03:42:51 <sanity> um. s/money/bitcoins
401 2011-06-14 03:43:33 <sanity> Joric: your wallet is a collection of these keypairs/addresses
402 2011-06-14 03:44:28 <Joric> looks like i'll lose all new transactions if i'll restore from an older copy of a wallet, unless there would be a pregenerated pool of addresses
403 2011-06-14 03:44:39 <sanity> Joric: i think so, yes
404 2011-06-14 03:44:47 <Joric> so,
405 2011-06-14 03:45:04 <sanity> Joric: if you lose a keypair, you lose the ability to send the bitcoins in it to anyone else - ie. they become useless
406 2011-06-14 03:45:06 <Joric> what's happening on keypoolsize+1 send?
407 2011-06-14 03:45:15 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: except when things go wrong (re: stability) ... p sure that jump to 30 was an algorithm gone bad
408 2011-06-14 03:45:48 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: right now? 100 new keys get genned at once before send
409 2011-06-14 03:45:49 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: i agree, i think the main advantage of employing GAs is to achieve better market stability
410 2011-06-14 03:46:24 noagendamarket has joined
411 2011-06-14 03:46:25 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: as it stands, some early bitcoin adopter can sell a bunch and crash the market - which hurts bitcoin's overall credibility and utility
412 2011-06-14 03:46:29 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: not that my bank account is complaining about said jump, of course
413 2011-06-14 03:46:42 <Joric> jrmithdobbs, so the keypoolsize become 200?
414 2011-06-14 03:46:43 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: not if you got out at the right time
415 2011-06-14 03:47:02 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: and I did. Goodby cc debt. ;P
416 2011-06-14 03:47:13 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: good for you :-)
417 2011-06-14 03:47:33 <Joric> i've really tired of digging through code it's not that readable
418 2011-06-14 03:47:42 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: but you should never have been in cc debt in the first place, of course
419 2011-06-14 03:48:08 <upb> unless its interest free :)
420 2011-06-14 03:49:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
421 2011-06-14 03:49:29 <sanity> once my GA is relatively stable, my intention is to allow people to participate in the pool it controls. NOT as a get-rich-quick scheme, but because it will help market stability. my GA is designed to always bet on stability, and thus if its pool is big enough, it will counter large sudden jolts that damage Bitcoin's credibility
422 2011-06-14 03:50:35 <sanity> ...while making a decent return for participants, *if* the market remains reasonably stable
423 2011-06-14 03:51:25 <jrmithdobbs> upb: it was mostly, actually, lol
424 2011-06-14 03:52:09 theboos has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
425 2011-06-14 03:52:19 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: it wasn't that much cc debt, got into financial trouble end of last year cause of health issues and the us' wonderful healthcare system ;P
426 2011-06-14 03:52:46 <jrmithdobbs> cc debt or not eating is a p easy choice
427 2011-06-14 03:53:40 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: sounds good to me. only a matter of time before several people are doing the same.
428 2011-06-14 03:54:36 <jrmithdobbs> sanity: nice blurb on your cv too ... "First bitcoin-backed mutual fund." ;P
429 2011-06-14 04:00:48 <sanity> jrmithdobbs: hah, not sure if i'd call it a mutual fund - perhaps a mutual pool ;-)
430 2011-06-14 04:00:55 <Kireji> ;;bc,mtgox
431 2011-06-14 04:00:56 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":24.5,"low":16,"vol":75005,"buy":19.72,"sell":19.74,"last":19.74}}
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433 2011-06-14 04:04:06 <Joric> i'm having doubts about a particular address
434 2011-06-14 04:04:46 nbdy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
435 2011-06-14 04:04:59 <Joric> after restoring from an older copy i see the transaction in a client but client doesnt say that address is 'yours' and it's not in the list of receiving addresses
436 2011-06-14 04:05:48 <Joric> i assume it is in the pool but it is hidden, or there's something else
437 2011-06-14 04:06:49 <Joric> ? may i have a keypair that doesn't show up in a list of a receiving addresses?
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442 2011-06-14 04:15:16 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r3a8c186fe287 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/MarketMonitor/plugin.py: MarketMonitor: fix for the changed bitcoincharts feed format http://tinyurl.com/6g3yrjm
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452 2011-06-14 04:24:29 <luke-jr> tcatm: did you break it? -.-
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474 2011-06-14 05:25:10 <AnonX> Is the bitcoin-wallet that you download from bitcoin.org open source, as in can you make changes on it and customize it?
475 2011-06-14 05:25:54 hachque has joined
476 2011-06-14 05:26:11 XX01XX is now known as andrewsmith1986
477 2011-06-14 05:26:19 andrewsmith1986 is now known as XX01XX
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487 2011-06-14 05:41:39 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
488 2011-06-14 05:41:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130672 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 367 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 14 hours, 1 minute, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 842214.36433008
489 2011-06-14 05:43:14 <Joric> got 5/unconfirmed after a hour, is that normal? paid 0.001 for 'oversized transacton'
490 2011-06-14 05:44:46 <doublec> Joric: normal. the client considers anything under 6 to be unconfirmed.
491 2011-06-14 05:45:06 manveru has joined
492 2011-06-14 05:45:11 <manveru> yo
493 2011-06-14 05:45:57 <manveru> i'm poring through the source of pushpoold, and see "rewrite returned 'target' to difficulty-1" - anybody there to explain what that means?
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495 2011-06-14 05:47:48 <doublec> manveru: it makes the client miner think the difficuty is 1 so it will return a result when it reaches that target
496 2011-06-14 05:48:10 <doublec> manveru: this allows the pool to count 'difficulty 1 shares' and work out how much the miner is contributing to the pool
497 2011-06-14 05:48:21 <manveru> oh, ok
498 2011-06-14 05:48:27 <doublec> manveru: the pool will pass the result up the chain to the bitcoind to see if it solved the real target
499 2011-06-14 05:48:52 <manveru> but that also means the pool gets a ton more results?
500 2011-06-14 05:49:24 <doublec> yes
501 2011-06-14 05:50:07 <manveru> so it's better to cook up some math to calculate based on the real difficulty?
502 2011-06-14 05:50:27 <doublec> I'm not sure what you mean
503 2011-06-14 05:50:57 r2k has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
504 2011-06-14 05:51:19 <manveru> well, i can only imagine that rewriting to 1 is to make calculation of contribution easier
505 2011-06-14 05:51:24 r2k has joined
506 2011-06-14 05:51:30 <manveru> haven't tried it yet...
507 2011-06-14 05:51:59 <manveru> but if the server load goes through the roof just to make that calculation easier, i reason that it's better to fix the calculation instead
508 2011-06-14 05:52:19 <doublec> just up the difficulty that gets rewritten
509 2011-06-14 05:52:41 <manveru> hm
510 2011-06-14 05:52:43 <manveru> ah, i see
511 2011-06-14 05:52:50 <Joric> wow i've got confirmed
512 2011-06-14 05:52:54 <manveru> if it's too high, clients will never get back with a share
513 2011-06-14 05:53:16 <Joric> it took 1h20m
514 2011-06-14 05:53:28 <Joric> kinda sucks
515 2011-06-14 05:54:00 <doublec> Joric: you can use the coins after the first confirmation
516 2011-06-14 05:54:00 <Joric> maybe because of the 'oversized transaction'
517 2011-06-14 05:54:08 <Joric> but i've paid a fee
518 2011-06-14 05:54:11 <doublec> Joric: you don't need to wait for all 6
519 2011-06-14 05:54:40 <Joric> i've got first confirmation after 50m then
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523 2011-06-14 06:01:03 ArdaXi is now known as newuser
524 2011-06-14 06:01:25 <alystair> what format is the DB file in?
525 2011-06-14 06:01:34 newuser is now known as ArdaXi
526 2011-06-14 06:02:08 <manveru> alystair: which db file?
527 2011-06-14 06:02:38 <manveru> the blk0001.dat ?
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542 2011-06-14 06:20:48 <Prodego> why thank you BCBot - (I'd note chanserv can send entry /notices automatically)
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551 2011-06-14 06:25:43 <hdon-> hi all :) where should i begin reading the bitcoin source code? no goal other than exploration/curiosity
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560 2011-06-14 06:39:53 <Kireji> I've left 4 cpu cores running for 10 days atraight, and made 0.06 bitcoin in a pool, or about $1.20 -> conclusion: CPU mining is totally hopeless
561 2011-06-14 06:40:04 <Kireji> hdon-: github
562 2011-06-14 06:40:22 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * r4c57a66012e9 pushpool/ (AUTHORS ChangeLog NEWS configure.ac): Version 0.5. http://tinyurl.com/6he7tc9
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566 2011-06-14 06:44:16 <Joric> Kireji, i've got about the same results on a nvidia 9800 GT gpu, so nvidia is hopeless as well
567 2011-06-14 06:45:11 <Joric> even high-end nvidias are like 5-10 slower than average ati's
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575 2011-06-14 07:04:09 * corecode eyes manveru
576 2011-06-14 07:06:42 LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
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582 2011-06-14 07:17:37 <manveru> corecode: ?
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585 2011-06-14 07:22:04 <Joric> transactions take up to 2 hours now, don't you think the whole system will stop eventually
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592 2011-06-14 07:26:47 <hdon-> Kireji, no i mean... any tips for browsing the source code?
593 2011-06-14 07:26:49 <hdon-> i have github tip already
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596 2011-06-14 07:30:19 <jgarzik> Joric: huh?
597 2011-06-14 07:30:24 TD has joined
598 2011-06-14 07:30:32 <jgarzik> Joric: transactions are confirmed every 10 minutes, on average. right now... even faster
599 2011-06-14 07:31:25 <Joric> i've sent 0.5 btc with a fee it took 50 minutes to the first confirmation
600 2011-06-14 07:32:02 <zamgo> there is a mod_whois for apache, to make apache act as a whois server. It be possible to do mod_bitcoin, to make apache act as a node and/or rpc server
601 2011-06-14 07:32:23 <zamgo> but... would it be worth anything?
602 2011-06-14 07:33:48 <jgarzik> Joric: sure, that happens on occasion
603 2011-06-14 07:34:09 <jgarzik> Joric: but right now there are 9.67 confirmations per hour, from the past 24 hours
604 2011-06-14 07:34:16 <jgarzik> Joric: so that is not representative at all
605 2011-06-14 07:34:53 dubious has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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607 2011-06-14 07:38:41 <Joric> btw after restoring wallet it looked like i've lost a keypair but it suddenly appeared after the last transaction
608 2011-06-14 07:38:49 Graet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
609 2011-06-14 07:38:53 <Joric> i guess it's from the pool
610 2011-06-14 07:39:07 <bob2> no your keypair is not stored in the bitcoin network
611 2011-06-14 07:39:20 <Joric> don't know how often i should do backups now
612 2011-06-14 07:39:39 <jgarzik> Joric: backup after every single transaction
613 2011-06-14 07:39:43 <Joric> bob2, i know that
614 2011-06-14 07:39:45 <jgarzik> Joric: that you send
615 2011-06-14 07:39:50 <Joric> jgarzik, yeah
616 2011-06-14 07:44:10 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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620 2011-06-14 07:45:26 <Joric> sorry i've got disconnected
621 2011-06-14 07:45:29 <Joric> jgarzik, how does it work now if i've used the whole pool? does it generate next 100 addresses?
622 2011-06-14 07:48:34 zamgo has left ()
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624 2011-06-14 07:49:43 <Joric> or it expands a pool every time to have a 100 new addresses ahead
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670 2011-06-14 08:29:43 <jgarzik> Joric: pool continually expands
671 2011-06-14 08:29:55 <Joric> got it
672 2011-06-14 08:30:53 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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674 2011-06-14 08:32:57 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Han Lin Yap master * rc60da73 / (8 files in 8 dirs): Consistent Bitcoin example address - http://bit.ly/jDL5ZI
675 2011-06-14 08:32:57 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r40dc7e6 / (8 files in 8 dirs):
676 2011-06-14 08:32:57 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Merge pull request #315 from codler/consistent-address
677 2011-06-14 08:33:21 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r6f460ba / (locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.po src/util.cpp):
678 2011-06-14 08:33:21 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Merge pull request #314 from codler/translate
679 2011-06-14 08:33:21 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Update swedish translation - http://bit.ly/iMVvSD
680 2011-06-14 08:33:23 <nathan7> lala
681 2011-06-14 08:33:42 EncRyptO has joined
682 2011-06-14 08:37:32 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #53: FAILURE in 1 min 10 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/53/
683 2011-06-14 08:37:32 <BlueMattBot> * codler: Double check translation and improved a translation string
684 2011-06-14 08:37:33 <BlueMattBot> * codler: Update swedish translation
685 2011-06-14 08:37:33 <BlueMattBot> * codler: Consistent Bitcoin example address
686 2011-06-14 08:41:36 asddf has joined
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693 2011-06-14 08:47:59 <FellowTraveler> Does anyone know the best code to use if you want to accept Bitcoins as payment on your own website? Like a shopping cart?
694 2011-06-14 08:48:13 DrDeke_ has joined
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700 2011-06-14 08:51:44 <manveru> FellowTraveler: mtgox has some
701 2011-06-14 08:52:06 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rc02ec54 / src/util.cpp : FormatFullVersion: build fix related to recent translation improvement - http://bit.ly/ksWTCB
702 2011-06-14 08:52:25 <jgarzik> FellowTraveler: mybitcoin.com or mtgox.com merchant API
703 2011-06-14 08:52:33 <manveru> FellowTraveler: https://mtgox.com/merch/about
704 2011-06-14 08:54:08 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
705 2011-06-14 08:57:05 TheAncientGoat has joined
706 2011-06-14 08:57:16 <TommyBoy3G> then the new version of client will come out? .23?
707 2011-06-14 08:58:32 <TommyBoy3G> its out, but not updated on both pages
708 2011-06-14 08:58:35 <TommyBoy3G> suks
709 2011-06-14 08:59:04 <TommyBoy3G> New version of Bitcoin (0.3.23) is out - http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.23/
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714 2011-06-14 09:03:01 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-15-13.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Guest71978
715 2011-06-14 09:03:15 JaredW has joined
716 2011-06-14 09:03:37 <TommyBoy3G> jgarzik please update topic on bitcoin chan about new version.
717 2011-06-14 09:05:57 SLEKiS666 has joined
718 2011-06-14 09:06:14 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r19ea442 / (11 files):
719 2011-06-14 09:06:14 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Merge pull request #226 from jordanlewis/betterheaders
720 2011-06-14 09:06:14 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Optimize header dependencies; improve Makefile dependency graph - http://bit.ly/lXPOBQ
721 2011-06-14 09:06:43 lessPlastic has joined
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727 2011-06-14 09:16:10 Stellar has joined
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729 2011-06-14 09:19:48 <Akinava> Help make a example hash '00' of the address
730 2011-06-14 09:19:53 Stellar has joined
731 2011-06-14 09:19:58 <Akinava> http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashtoaddress/00 -> 112edB6q
732 2011-06-14 09:21:01 <Akinava> Checksum = 1st 4 bytes of SHA-256(SHA-256(Key hash'00')) 1406e05881e299367766d313e26c05564ec91bf721d31726bd6e46e60689539a
733 2011-06-14 09:21:06 Stellar has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
734 2011-06-14 09:21:11 <Akinava> addres in hex 1406e058+00 ?
735 2011-06-14 09:22:26 <lfm> Hi are you asking something?
736 2011-06-14 09:23:04 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
737 2011-06-14 09:23:05 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #54: FIXED in 26 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/54/
738 2011-06-14 09:23:05 <BlueMattBot> jgarzik: FormatFullVersion: build fix related to recent translation improvement
739 2011-06-14 09:23:57 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
740 2011-06-14 09:24:17 <Akinava> lfm, Yes, I want to get an address from the hash
741 2011-06-14 09:24:23 Stellar has joined
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744 2011-06-14 09:27:43 <lfm> Akinava: ok you want to hash a public key and get and address?
745 2011-06-14 09:28:35 <phuzion> How would one go about building their own testnet?
746 2011-06-14 09:29:12 <lfm> phuzion: take two computers and use -connect=192.168.x.x on them both
747 2011-06-14 09:29:32 <lfm> phuzion: to connect them to each other only
748 2011-06-14 09:29:37 <Akinava> lfm, I know hash, I want get address
749 2011-06-14 09:29:55 <phuzion> lfm: isn't there something that you have to change in the source so you can make it start with its own new blockchain?
750 2011-06-14 09:30:10 <lfm> well you started with a key tho, right? or not right?
751 2011-06-14 09:30:33 <lfm> phuzion: Im not sure how youd do that
752 2011-06-14 09:31:05 <lfm> Akinava: some hashes you can turn into addresses and some you cant
753 2011-06-14 09:31:53 <coblee> hey maybe someone can help me here. i sent a transaction more than half an hour ago, but it's still not showing up on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ and i have 8 connections and my blocks are up-to-date 130709
754 2011-06-14 09:32:07 <coblee> is my client just confused and not broadcasting the transaction?
755 2011-06-14 09:32:16 <lfm> Akinava: the hashes I know of that you can turn into keys are 20 bytes, not like yours
756 2011-06-14 09:32:35 <coblee> restarting the client doesn't help. what should i do?
757 2011-06-14 09:32:54 <lfm> coblee: some transactions take a very long time. a day or so
758 2011-06-14 09:33:06 <coblee> but shouldn't it be at least broadcasted?
759 2011-06-14 09:33:23 <coblee> i can understand that it can take a long time to pick up (if it's large with no fees)
760 2011-06-14 09:33:37 <coblee> but if it's not on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ then no one even knows about it, right?
761 2011-06-14 09:33:53 <lfm> coblee: ya but I dont think anyone else will even see it till it gets 1 confirmed block
762 2011-06-14 09:33:59 <Akinava> I understand the theory of the address
763 2011-06-14 09:34:17 <doublec> coblee: I've had an error on sending that resulted in it not being broadcast
764 2011-06-14 09:34:25 <doublec> coblee: it took a few hours to go out in the end
765 2011-06-14 09:34:28 <Akinava> lfm, I want to understand the theory of the address
766 2011-06-14 09:34:57 <coblee> so just wait and it will somehow go out? or can i speed it up by clearing my local transaction list and restart and resend the btc?
767 2011-06-14 09:35:38 <lfm> Akinava: well as I understand it you start with a key that is I think 65 bytes and do ripem150(sha256(key)) to get a 20 byte hash
768 2011-06-14 09:35:41 <Akinava> sorry, ill know the language
769 2011-06-14 09:35:44 <lfm> Akinava: then ..
770 2011-06-14 09:36:21 <Akinava> lfm, yes ripem150(sha256(key) turned
771 2011-06-14 09:37:00 <lfm> Akinava: add a zero byte in front of it and convert to the base58 representation then add a 1 in front for every zero byte in fron of the 21 byte block
772 2011-06-14 09:37:50 <lfm> you treat the 21 byte value as a very large number and divide by 58 repeatedly
773 2011-06-14 09:38:32 <doublec> coblee: I just waited
774 2011-06-14 09:38:40 <coblee> doublec: ok thanks
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778 2011-06-14 09:40:27 <lfm> Akinava: you understand ripem160() produces a 20 byte result right?
779 2011-06-14 09:41:04 <Akinava> lfm, yes
780 2011-06-14 09:41:28 <lfm> akin ok where are you getting lost? the base58 long arithmetic?
781 2011-06-14 09:41:53 <Akinava> example python hashlib.sha256(hashlib.sha256(('00').decode('hex')).hexdigest().decode('hex')).hexdigest()
782 2011-06-14 09:42:08 <Akinava> yps
783 2011-06-14 09:42:21 <lfm> I dont know python, thats not ripem160 tho
784 2011-06-14 09:42:27 <Akinava> wrong
785 2011-06-14 09:42:34 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
786 2011-06-14 09:43:14 <gjs278> I swear every nick that comes in here that starts with an "A" is always a piece of crap
787 2011-06-14 09:43:22 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
788 2011-06-14 09:43:38 <lfm> oh ya, I forgot the checksum, take that sha256(sha256(21byte value)) and use the first 4 bytes from the result
789 2011-06-14 09:43:41 <topi`> FellowTraveler: such code shouldn't be difficult to implement yourself, since you just need to do RPC calls to the locally running bitcoin client
790 2011-06-14 09:44:05 denisx has joined
791 2011-06-14 09:44:08 <lfm> as a checksum added on to the end of the 21 byte vector to make it 25 bytes then convert to base58
792 2011-06-14 09:44:34 <coblee> doublec: the transaction is there now. wonder why it took so long.
793 2011-06-14 09:44:38 <denisx> is there a reason why the hash in pushpoold is somehow backwards?
794 2011-06-14 09:44:50 <doublec> coblee: probably an error on the initial send
795 2011-06-14 09:44:58 <doublec> coblee: if you look in the debug.log you might see it
796 2011-06-14 09:44:59 <coblee> yeah, probably
797 2011-06-14 09:45:17 <topi`> denisx: the hash needs to be "reversed" for comparison purposes
798 2011-06-14 09:45:23 <topi`> this is just a LSB/MSB issue
799 2011-06-14 09:45:30 <doublec> coblee: it's stress inducing if there's someone waiting for the other end of the transaction :)
800 2011-06-14 09:45:33 <lfm> coblee: thats been happening a lot latly, not sure why. I think people are working on stuff that should help in the next version but who knows
801 2011-06-14 09:45:41 <corecode> oh god the bitcoin code is chaotic
802 2011-06-14 09:45:51 <topi`> corecode: welcome to the club :D
803 2011-06-14 09:46:06 <topi`> corecode: somehow C++ is a good language to encourage chaotic coding
804 2011-06-14 09:46:09 <coblee> doublec: yeah, luckily i was just sending chrome my checking to saving
805 2011-06-14 09:46:27 <coblee> i actually had to quit the app right after i sent. so maybe that's why
806 2011-06-14 09:46:27 ArtForzZz has joined
807 2011-06-14 09:46:35 <corecode> topi`: no, this is just bad coding
808 2011-06-14 09:46:38 <coblee> next time i won't quit until transaction is broadcasted
809 2011-06-14 09:46:51 <corecode> i mean, this code is far away from being portable
810 2011-06-14 09:47:21 <lfm> corecode: I think it was specificlly intended to be non portable
811 2011-06-14 09:47:25 <corecode> i bet it doesn't work for any LPI64 processors
812 2011-06-14 09:47:26 <topi`> corecode: exactly. especially with regard to endianness.
813 2011-06-14 09:48:03 <lfm> corecode: if lpi64 are big endian then ya, it would be very hard to port
814 2011-06-14 09:48:13 <topi`> lfm: what could such motivation be? only Intel or other LE vendors would benefit from such a decisin :)
815 2011-06-14 09:48:35 <samr7> I think he means sizeof(int) == 8
816 2011-06-14 09:49:23 <lfm> topi`: When Satoshi wrote it I dont think he wanted people to make competing implentations too soon, He wanted to just have the one authoritive implementation (for pcs). Im just guessing tho
817 2011-06-14 09:49:25 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
818 2011-06-14 09:49:31 <corecode> yea, what's up with that byteswapping?
819 2011-06-14 09:50:26 <corecode> lfm: just looks like a) inexperienced programmer or b) ugly on purpose
820 2011-06-14 09:50:41 <lfm> ya I am thinking b)
821 2011-06-14 09:50:53 <corecode> what for?
822 2011-06-14 09:51:04 <corecode> that just means that people will rewrite it
823 2011-06-14 09:51:13 <corecode> i just had a look at the mining code
824 2011-06-14 09:51:14 <lfm> like I told Topi just now, to dicourage porters
825 2011-06-14 09:51:31 <corecode> why would you want to discourage porters?
826 2011-06-14 09:51:52 <corecode> also, ugly code is perfect to hide cryptographic (implementation) errors
827 2011-06-14 09:51:57 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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829 2011-06-14 09:52:22 <lfm> corecode: well the mining code is a special reason it is so bad is cuz it has had the crap optimized out of it by every programmer who ever got interested in bitcoins
830 2011-06-14 09:53:08 Stellar has joined
831 2011-06-14 09:53:15 <corecode> if my students wrote that code i wouldn't pass them
832 2011-06-14 09:53:29 <corecode> and there are memcpys all over the place
833 2011-06-14 09:53:29 BlueMatt has joined
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836 2011-06-14 09:53:38 <corecode> that can not possibly be optimized
837 2011-06-14 09:53:47 <lfm> corecode: ya well students are not spozed to optimize, they are spozed to make it easy for the markers to read
838 2011-06-14 09:53:59 <corecode> any programmer
839 2011-06-14 09:54:28 <lfm> well some programmer do optimize wheather they're spozed to or not
840 2011-06-14 09:54:48 <doublec> corecode: do you have a specific example of bad code?
841 2011-06-14 09:54:55 Niedar has joined
842 2011-06-14 09:54:59 <gjs278> corecode are you an actual teacher or a hypothetical teacher
843 2011-06-14 09:55:07 <lfm> corecode: the reason is the mining code, faster makes more money for those who run it
844 2011-06-14 09:55:11 Stellar has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
845 2011-06-14 09:55:45 <corecode> gjs278: actual
846 2011-06-14 09:55:51 <gjs278> what school
847 2011-06-14 09:55:58 <corecode> not your business
848 2011-06-14 09:56:09 <gjs278> well
849 2011-06-14 09:56:10 <gjs278> level
850 2011-06-14 09:56:11 <gjs278> of teaching
851 2011-06-14 09:56:14 <lfm> the mining code was much worse a short time ago, it had asm bits all over
852 2011-06-14 09:56:16 <gjs278> not the actual school
853 2011-06-14 09:56:17 <corecode> university
854 2011-06-14 09:56:43 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
855 2011-06-14 09:56:43 <corecode> doublec: just look at the BitcoinMiner() loop and the calls
856 2011-06-14 09:56:54 <corecode> especially FormatHashBlocks or so
857 2011-06-14 09:56:57 <doublec> corecode: what specifically about it do you deem bad
858 2011-06-14 09:56:57 <corecode> i closed the file
859 2011-06-14 09:57:04 <gjs278> I've seen the garbage college students write, you must fail a lot of your students if this is what you consider unpassable
860 2011-06-14 09:57:06 <doublec> it's easy to say "this is bad"
861 2011-06-14 09:57:18 <doublec> harder to say "this is bad because of X and should be done like Y"
862 2011-06-14 09:57:58 <lfm> gjs278: naw, no one ever seems to teach real code that does real stuff like bitcoin. its all toy problems
863 2011-06-14 09:58:06 <corecode> doublec: 0 portability, implicit reliance on the size of int, aliasing, cast to pointers and subsequent assumption of padded structures
864 2011-06-14 09:58:16 <doublec> corecode: show me an example
865 2011-06-14 09:58:20 <gjs278> shuffle this deck of cards and determine what hand will win in a game of war using arrays!
866 2011-06-14 09:58:22 <corecode> doublec: read it
867 2011-06-14 09:58:26 <corecode> doublec: voila example
868 2011-06-14 09:58:32 <doublec> corecode: yeah I didn't think you could
869 2011-06-14 09:58:41 <doublec> corecode: I guess you're right, you are a teacher
870 2011-06-14 09:59:20 <corecode> doublec: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3424
871 2011-06-14 09:59:21 <lfm> corecode: ya it assumes int is always 4 bytes cuz on a PC it will be 4 bytes no matter if you have a 32 bit OS or a 64 bit OS (os + compiler system).
872 2011-06-14 09:59:32 <topi`> once upon a time I ported the source of "doom" to alpha architecture. it was *very* time consuming since the code was casting pointers to integers all the time, and an alpha 6bit pointer would not fit into a 32bit int
873 2011-06-14 10:00:03 <lfm> 64 bit pointer
874 2011-06-14 10:00:26 <topi`> lfm: on my OSX system all pointers are 64 bits wide
875 2011-06-14 10:00:27 <corecode> doublec: tmp assumes int are 4 byte little endian, FormatHashBlocks assumes that pbuffer is back-padded with up to 64 bytes
876 2011-06-14 10:00:42 RazielZ has joined
877 2011-06-14 10:01:07 <corecode> lfm: only by convention
878 2011-06-14 10:01:21 <lfm> corecode: the 64 byte padding is part of the sha256 algorithm actually
879 2011-06-14 10:01:55 <corecode> lfm: yes, but the way FormatHashBlocks is called
880 2011-06-14 10:02:02 <corecode> lfm: it lumps together the data and the padding
881 2011-06-14 10:02:05 Stellar has joined
882 2011-06-14 10:02:15 <doublec> corecode: so now's a good time to fix it the way you think it should be fixed and do a pull request
883 2011-06-14 10:02:16 <lfm> corecode: ya convention on PCs is default int is 32 bits even on 64 bit systems
884 2011-06-14 10:02:23 <corecode> doublec: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3184
885 2011-06-14 10:02:28 <corecode> doublec: why +12?
886 2011-06-14 10:02:54 <lfm> which version of bitcoin is it?
887 2011-06-14 10:02:54 <corecode> lfm: yes, because they didn't dare making it LPI64 :)
888 2011-06-14 10:02:56 zyb_ is now known as zyb
889 2011-06-14 10:02:58 <gjs278> int + 12
890 2011-06-14 10:03:14 <lfm> what the heck is a lpi64 anyway?
891 2011-06-14 10:03:28 <corecode> lfm: long, pointer, int = 64 bits
892 2011-06-14 10:03:34 <corecode> vs LP64 for PCs
893 2011-06-14 10:03:43 <corecode> well, linux,windows,osx
894 2011-06-14 10:03:45 <lfm> you want a long int use a long it
895 2011-06-14 10:04:05 <corecode> there are other architectures where int and long int are 64bit
896 2011-06-14 10:04:19 <lfm> and ya, no one uses default ints of 64 bits
897 2011-06-14 10:04:29 <lfm> on PCs
898 2011-06-14 10:04:49 <corecode> ah, most call it ilp64
899 2011-06-14 10:05:05 <lfm> never heard of either actually
900 2011-06-14 10:05:13 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
901 2011-06-14 10:05:29 <corecode> oh hey
902 2011-06-14 10:05:34 <corecode> windows does llp64
903 2011-06-14 10:05:40 <corecode> where a long int is also 32 bits
904 2011-06-14 10:05:45 <corecode> and a long long is 64
905 2011-06-14 10:05:51 <lfm> oh ya on windows 32
906 2011-06-14 10:06:01 <corecode> seems on 64
907 2011-06-14 10:06:04 <lfm> same as linux 32
908 2011-06-14 10:06:05 <corecode> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/LP64#Specific_C-language_data_models
909 2011-06-14 10:07:12 <lfm> ok well maybe with a switch on ms compilers or something. bitcoin I think uses mingw compiler
910 2011-06-14 10:07:46 <d1234> ;;bc,stats
911 2011-06-14 10:08:20 gsathya has joined
912 2011-06-14 10:09:28 Backburn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
913 2011-06-14 10:10:51 soossii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
914 2011-06-14 10:12:29 <lfm> corecode: if you look at bitcoin, you should find it doesnt use long much. it uses int for 32 and "long long" for 64 bits to work on both 32 bit and 74 bit linux and mswin system
915 2011-06-14 10:12:44 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
916 2011-06-14 10:12:44 <lfm> 74 -> 64
917 2011-06-14 10:12:56 <directhex> all the best computers are 74-bit
918 2011-06-14 10:13:43 BlueMattBot has joined
919 2011-06-14 10:15:07 <gjs278> 74 bit so you have a bit buffer on your 64bits
920 2011-06-14 10:15:10 Gxxxx has joined
921 2011-06-14 10:15:14 <lfm> directhex: I used to work on a 36 bit system (univac 1100 seies)
922 2011-06-14 10:15:43 <directhex> lfm, and the precursor to ibm's zseries were 31-bit. at least the VMs were.
923 2011-06-14 10:15:46 Gxxxx has left ()
924 2011-06-14 10:15:50 <lfm> I sudder to think what C would be like on it
925 2011-06-14 10:16:05 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
926 2011-06-14 10:16:09 <lfm> shudder
927 2011-06-14 10:16:25 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
928 2011-06-14 10:16:25 Blitzboom has joined
929 2011-06-14 10:16:30 <lfm> directhex: zseries? you sure?
930 2011-06-14 10:16:45 <directhex> lfm, the old s/390
931 2011-06-14 10:17:13 <lfm> lfm ya, the s/390 was from the s/370 and s/360 and they were all 32 bits
932 2011-06-14 10:17:32 <directhex> 32ish!
933 2011-06-14 10:17:37 <topi`> lfm: I shudder to remember working in BCPL on the Amiga (the dos.library was written in BCPL)
934 2011-06-14 10:17:49 <topi`> BCPL pointers were, um, a joy!
935 2011-06-14 10:18:04 <vegard> electrologica x1 from 1958 had 27 bits :D
936 2011-06-14 10:18:05 <lfm> it might be certain models of hardware were limited to 31 bit addresses or something but internally the software was all 32 bit
937 2011-06-14 10:18:29 <directhex> lfm, address space limited to 31-bit. the 32nd was used as a flag for 24-bit support.
938 2011-06-14 10:19:12 <lfm> ya some of the addresses were 24 bit but it is generally considered a 32 bit architecture
939 2011-06-14 10:19:25 kish has joined
940 2011-06-14 10:19:59 <directhex> average it out as 28-bit, that's the best plan
941 2011-06-14 10:21:00 Gxxxx has joined
942 2011-06-14 10:21:15 <lfm> best for who! hehe. plain 32 bit would be better for most things, all those 24 bit and 31 bit addresses would be for backward compatibility with the dark ages
943 2011-06-14 10:22:15 Diablo-D3 has joined
944 2011-06-14 10:24:42 <Gxxxx> ;;bc,timetonext
945 2011-06-14 10:25:22 <Diablo-D3> bots dead
946 2011-06-14 10:25:34 <Gxxxx> damn
947 2011-06-14 10:27:03 lumos has joined
948 2011-06-14 10:27:05 <lfm> est next difficulty: 842056.51, in 1.80 days
949 2011-06-14 10:27:36 <gjs278> doesn't scare me
950 2011-06-14 10:27:47 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 800000
951 2011-06-14 10:27:56 <JFK911> im scared
952 2011-06-14 10:27:56 <gjs278> bots dead
953 2011-06-14 10:28:00 <JFK911> dangit
954 2011-06-14 10:28:02 <gjs278> thats how scared the bot is
955 2011-06-14 10:28:11 <JFK911> that bot's right
956 2011-06-14 10:28:13 <JFK911> imho
957 2011-06-14 10:28:17 ultrafluf has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
958 2011-06-14 10:28:34 AnonX has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
959 2011-06-14 10:30:08 <lfm> difficulty could be 1 million in 2 weeks
960 2011-06-14 10:30:20 <kish> what is it now
961 2011-06-14 10:30:23 <gjs278> my processor cant handle that many bits
962 2011-06-14 10:31:13 <lfm> est next difficulty: 842056.51, in 1.80 days
963 2011-06-14 10:31:24 <lfm> est next difficulty: 842056.51, in 1.80 days
964 2011-06-14 10:31:35 <lfm> bah, cat copy and paste it right
965 2011-06-14 10:31:37 <kish> but i havent even begun mining opertilns
966 2011-06-14 10:31:49 <kish> i my be too late
967 2011-06-14 10:32:02 <lfm> curr diff =567269.5302
968 2011-06-14 10:33:35 <kish> i'm arranging a solar storm that will destroy your miners with an emp blast
969 2011-06-14 10:33:40 <eureka^> oh no
970 2011-06-14 10:33:57 <lfm> kish ok, I give up, you got me
971 2011-06-14 10:34:20 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
972 2011-06-14 10:34:33 <topi`> that's a crazy difficulty
973 2011-06-14 10:34:39 <topi`> will turn off my miners :(
974 2011-06-14 10:35:01 <Wuked> it should increase the price of a coin even more ? :o
975 2011-06-14 10:35:04 <kish> what will difficulty be in 12 months time
976 2011-06-14 10:35:15 <lfm> kish 3.00
977 2011-06-14 10:35:22 <lfm> after the crash
978 2011-06-14 10:35:43 <kish> without crash
979 2011-06-14 10:36:05 <lfm> its unavoidable. ever since that emp took out most of the miners
980 2011-06-14 10:36:23 slush has joined
981 2011-06-14 10:38:10 B0g4r7_ has joined
982 2011-06-14 10:38:41 AnonX has joined
983 2011-06-14 10:38:44 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
984 2011-06-14 10:40:11 jivvz has joined
985 2011-06-14 10:41:25 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
986 2011-06-14 10:41:26 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
987 2011-06-14 10:41:40 gsathya_ has joined
988 2011-06-14 10:42:25 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
989 2011-06-14 10:42:26 gsathya_ is now known as gsathya
990 2011-06-14 10:44:16 Gxxxx has left ()
991 2011-06-14 10:45:44 skeledrew has joined
992 2011-06-14 10:48:26 jivvz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
993 2011-06-14 10:49:38 <lfm> Average interval since last diff change: 6.71 min
994 2011-06-14 10:50:26 <lfm> est next difficulty: 845466.14, in 1.46 days
995 2011-06-14 10:52:22 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
996 2011-06-14 10:52:57 gsathya has joined
997 2011-06-14 10:53:39 <hybriz_> http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly/win32-i686-patched/ -> what features does this patched version has over normal bitcoin ?
998 2011-06-14 10:55:24 <gjs278> well
999 2011-06-14 10:55:28 <gjs278> it has several useful features
1000 2011-06-14 10:55:33 <gjs278> but only BlueMatt knows what those are
1001 2011-06-14 10:55:52 slush has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1002 2011-06-14 10:56:08 <gjs278> note that they're pretty old
1003 2011-06-14 10:56:12 <gjs278> so I doubt they're anything special
1004 2011-06-14 10:56:55 <hybriz_> k
1005 2011-06-14 10:57:01 <hybriz_> 10x
1006 2011-06-14 10:57:14 <denisx> when I solomine and I find a block, I can only spend it after 120 confirmations?
1007 2011-06-14 10:57:30 <lfm> denisx: ya
1008 2011-06-14 10:57:50 _ape has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1009 2011-06-14 10:58:42 AStove has quit ()
1010 2011-06-14 11:00:49 _ape has joined
1011 2011-06-14 11:07:39 <iera> is minfee already 0.0005 in 0.3.23?
1012 2011-06-14 11:09:34 <iera> ah it seems so
1013 2011-06-14 11:09:56 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
1014 2011-06-14 11:12:15 k^^ has joined
1015 2011-06-14 11:14:24 md2k7 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1016 2011-06-14 11:15:25 <Joric> oh it was released, sweet
1017 2011-06-14 11:15:54 <Joric> yes, i've used it for a while
1018 2011-06-14 11:17:32 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1019 2011-06-14 11:26:57 <sneak> hi guys
1020 2011-06-14 11:27:51 <lfm> Hi
1021 2011-06-14 11:29:04 <sneak> what happened to the python bitcoin client?
1022 2011-06-14 11:29:07 <sneak> is that still around?
1023 2011-06-14 11:31:30 hdon- has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1024 2011-06-14 11:31:57 <lfm> sneak: I dont think it is compleat yet
1025 2011-06-14 11:32:22 f33x has joined
1026 2011-06-14 11:32:55 <lfm> sneak: the java one is closer
1027 2011-06-14 11:33:04 <sneak> yeah but java is way yuckier than python
1028 2011-06-14 11:33:17 <lfm> not so loud!
1029 2011-06-14 11:33:31 <sneak> oh god the python bitcoin client guy reimplemented the irc bootstrapping that the mainline client does
1030 2011-06-14 11:33:38 <sneak> why on earth would he do that
1031 2011-06-14 11:33:46 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1032 2011-06-14 11:33:49 <sneak> there are at least a dozen stable seed nodes for peer exchange now
1033 2011-06-14 11:34:47 <lfm> you dont have to use irc with the mainline client if you dont want it
1034 2011-06-14 11:34:57 TommyBoy3G has quit ()
1035 2011-06-14 11:38:21 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1036 2011-06-14 11:41:23 cryptocnt has joined
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1042 2011-06-14 11:48:54 bll-tegatai has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1043 2011-06-14 11:50:04 cryptocnt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1044 2011-06-14 11:50:29 cryptocnt has joined
1045 2011-06-14 11:51:30 slush has joined
1046 2011-06-14 11:52:16 sipa has joined
1047 2011-06-14 11:52:24 <sipa> jgarzik: betterheaders seems to break build
1048 2011-06-14 11:52:50 <sipa> ui.h and noui.h need an #include <boost/function.hpp>
1049 2011-06-14 11:54:31 falafell has joined
1050 2011-06-14 11:56:37 <sipa> roconnor: are your questions in #haskell related to your bitcoin implementation?
1051 2011-06-14 11:56:46 <roconnor> yes
1052 2011-06-14 11:57:08 <sipa> nice :)
1053 2011-06-14 11:57:34 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1054 2011-06-14 11:58:33 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1055 2011-06-14 12:00:31 <roconnor> sipa: I'm keeping a map of all outstanding coins at the end of every block.
1056 2011-06-14 12:00:35 Guest518` has joined
1057 2011-06-14 12:00:47 <roconnor> sipa: but it is hard for me to judge how much memory this should be using.
1058 2011-06-14 12:01:06 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1059 2011-06-14 12:01:18 <roconnor> sipa: at first it seems like a huge number of maps; however some fraction of those maps will be shared between each other.
1060 2011-06-14 12:01:24 <roconnor> sipa: I hoping that fraction is big.
1061 2011-06-14 12:01:55 <sipa> you keep the entire set of unredeemed coins in memory?
1062 2011-06-14 12:02:59 Guest51853 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1063 2011-06-14 12:03:32 <roconnor> not only that the set of unredeemed coins at the end of every block in memory.
1064 2011-06-14 12:03:54 <sipa> i think just the set of unredeemed coins is unreasonable
1065 2011-06-14 12:04:14 <roconnor> if there is a fork you need to go back.
1066 2011-06-14 12:04:16 <sipa> probably still possible right now
1067 2011-06-14 12:05:50 <lfm> besides coinbase txn - Total number of transactions: 597685
1068 2011-06-14 12:06:11 T_X1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1069 2011-06-14 12:06:58 <sipa> the c++ implementation just keeps all transactions, and marks things spent or unspent in the currently active best chain
1070 2011-06-14 12:07:14 <roconnor> lfm: should be 130733 coinbase txs
1071 2011-06-14 12:07:22 <lfm> yup
1072 2011-06-14 12:07:33 Speeder has joined
1073 2011-06-14 12:07:34 <roconnor> sipa: and when there is a fork in the chain?
1074 2011-06-14 12:07:47 danbri has joined
1075 2011-06-14 12:07:54 <sipa> and when doing a reorganisations, rewinds back to the branching point (marking things unspent again), and then applies the new branch (marking things there spent)
1076 2011-06-14 12:07:59 <sipa> *reorganisation
1077 2011-06-14 12:08:23 <lfm> roconnor: ya you should undo the txn in a reorg
1078 2011-06-14 12:08:25 <roconnor> sipa: I'm not storing the blocks
1079 2011-06-14 12:08:25 <sipa> entirely on disk, this information is not kept in memory
1080 2011-06-14 12:08:31 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1081 2011-06-14 12:08:47 <roconnor> why would I use a disk when I have virtual memory?
1082 2011-06-14 12:08:49 <roconnor> :D
1083 2011-06-14 12:08:50 Gxxxx has joined
1084 2011-06-14 12:09:10 <lfm> mmap the disk and then its both
1085 2011-06-14 12:09:19 yin has joined
1086 2011-06-14 12:09:31 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
1087 2011-06-14 12:09:33 <sipa> it should be possible, certainly
1088 2011-06-14 12:09:38 <diki> was wondering, if a lower than 1 diff is used in a pool, would it still have the same chance to beat the current diff?
1089 2011-06-14 12:09:42 <sipa> currently, in memory
1090 2011-06-14 12:09:49 <lfm> est next difficulty: 844111.53, in 1.46 days
1091 2011-06-14 12:09:58 <cosurgi> who maintains gribble?
1092 2011-06-14 12:10:04 <sipa> nanotube
1093 2011-06-14 12:10:10 <cosurgi> nanotube: help :)
1094 2011-06-14 12:10:14 bk128 has joined
1095 2011-06-14 12:10:15 md2k7 has joined
1096 2011-06-14 12:10:24 <roconnor> sipa: the total footprint (memory + disk) seems about the to me either way.
1097 2011-06-14 12:10:26 <lfm> cosurgi: what info you looking for?
1098 2011-06-14 12:10:32 bk128 has quit (Client Quit)
1099 2011-06-14 12:10:36 <cosurgi> when i snew difficulty
1100 2011-06-14 12:10:42 <lfm> est next difficulty: 844111.53, in 1.46 days
1101 2011-06-14 12:10:47 <cosurgi> thx
1102 2011-06-14 12:10:57 <lfm> roughly
1103 2011-06-14 12:10:59 <sipa> ;;bc,estimate
1104 2011-06-14 12:11:06 jivvz has joined
1105 2011-06-14 12:11:23 <lfm> sipa est next difficulty: 844111.53, in 1.46 days
1106 2011-06-14 12:11:28 gribble has joined
1107 2011-06-14 12:11:36 <sipa> roconnor: yes, but you don't need that set for every block, i think
1108 2011-06-14 12:11:37 mmyjona has joined
1109 2011-06-14 12:12:08 <sipa> without using ST or IO, you don't have much choice though
1110 2011-06-14 12:12:12 <roconnor> any block is a potential fork just waiting to happen. :D
1111 2011-06-14 12:12:26 <lfm> roconnor: yup
1112 2011-06-14 12:12:29 <roconnor> anyhow, first make the code simple, then make it fast.
1113 2011-06-14 12:13:05 <roconnor> I could do all sorts of things like having a queue of 100 block and deleting things after that and reconstructing them if I need to.
1114 2011-06-14 12:13:11 <roconnor> but simple first :D
1115 2011-06-14 12:13:38 <nanotube> sipa: cosurgi: thanks... gribz is back now. :)
1116 2011-06-14 12:13:40 <sipa> oh you should be prepared to go back to reorganize, definitely
1117 2011-06-14 12:14:04 <roconnor> sipa: so they way I have it now is that the "chain" is kept in a priority search queue
1118 2011-06-14 12:14:15 <roconnor> the block with the most work has the highest priority
1119 2011-06-14 12:14:25 <roconnor> and you just dump blocks into the PSQ
1120 2011-06-14 12:14:34 <lfm> roconnor: since the whole block chain is still just 259423000 bytes, it should be no problem keeping it in memory
1121 2011-06-14 12:14:36 <sipa> that's very clean
1122 2011-06-14 12:14:42 <sipa> roconnor: nice
1123 2011-06-14 12:14:43 <roconnor> and if one day a new block somehow has a higher priority, it magically jumps to the top.
1124 2011-06-14 12:14:55 <roconnor> lfm: that's what I figure.
1125 2011-06-14 12:15:08 gsathya has joined
1126 2011-06-14 12:15:27 <roconnor> lfm: over in #haskell I'm having trouble with my fixed heap of 512MB being exhasted; I'm trying to figure out why.
1127 2011-06-14 12:15:43 <roconnor> the heap profiling numbers are all much smaller than 512MB
1128 2011-06-14 12:15:58 <lfm> overhead
1129 2011-06-14 12:16:09 <lfm> fragmentation
1130 2011-06-14 12:16:20 <roconnor> sure, but I'm dying in april-2010; haven't even gotten to the big stuff lately
1131 2011-06-14 12:16:36 abragin has joined
1132 2011-06-14 12:16:37 <sipa> i wonder if you can't replace it with a specialized impure (but observably pure) data structure that only stored spentness of the highest-priority chain, and calculates all other things by rewinding to a branchpoint and back
1133 2011-06-14 12:16:47 <diki> sipa, what is the most lowest possible difficulty ?
1134 2011-06-14 12:16:52 <roconnor> in my latest test run I ran the GC after every block; only 8 MB lost to fragmentation reported.
1135 2011-06-14 12:17:01 <lfm> sipa definatly the way to go
1136 2011-06-14 12:17:06 <roconnor> sipa: ya, something like how diffArray works
1137 2011-06-14 12:17:28 <lfm> diki: 1/2^32
1138 2011-06-14 12:17:37 <lfm> diki: 1/(2^32)
1139 2011-06-14 12:17:48 <sipa> roconnor: yes, but then for a tree instead of an array :)
1140 2011-06-14 12:17:51 datagutt has joined
1141 2011-06-14 12:17:54 <roconnor> yep.
1142 2011-06-14 12:18:07 hdon- has joined
1143 2011-06-14 12:18:13 <roconnor> In principle it is possible; since diffArray is possible.
1144 2011-06-14 12:18:20 <lfm> diki that would make EVERY hash a winner
1145 2011-06-14 12:18:58 <sipa> roconnor: i think it would be nice if there was a verify-only haskell implementation that could be considered the reference ("if this program validates the transactions/blocks you create, it's valid bitcoin")
1146 2011-06-14 12:18:59 <roconnor> lfm: such low difficulties are not allowed by the protocol.
1147 2011-06-14 12:19:10 <roconnor> sipa: that's what I'm trying to build :D
1148 2011-06-14 12:19:14 <sipa> nice
1149 2011-06-14 12:19:26 <roconnor> sipa: but still functional enough to run resaonably okay on the real chain
1150 2011-06-14 12:19:54 <gmaxwell> That would be great... it could be a good alarm system.
1151 2011-06-14 12:20:16 <gmaxwell> (to have an implementation that wasn't even in any use except as a reference)
1152 2011-06-14 12:20:17 <roconnor> gmaxwell: right now my client is probably buggier that the standard client :D
1153 2011-06-14 12:20:25 <gmaxwell> Sure sure.
1154 2011-06-14 12:20:40 <lfm> diki: about 2.328E-10
1155 2011-06-14 12:20:41 <roconnor> but it is getting there.
1156 2011-06-14 12:20:57 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin needs moar diversity.
1157 2011-06-14 12:21:20 <roconnor> I want to turn this into a literate Haskell program that is an English specification with Haskell code as well.
1158 2011-06-14 12:22:00 <lfm> roconnor: I think the protocol would allow it, there may be policies in the code to stop it getting that low. like for the main block chain it is 1.00 and for testnet it is 0.0625 or something
1159 2011-06-14 12:22:03 <diki> so diff 2,32?
1160 2011-06-14 12:22:32 <lfm> diki no. 0.00000000023283
1161 2011-06-14 12:22:39 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1162 2011-06-14 12:22:49 <roconnor> testnet is 0.125
1163 2011-06-14 12:23:25 <lfm> roconnor: ya that is just various policies for various block chains, the protocol would allow 1/(2^32)
1164 2011-06-14 12:23:30 <roconnor> lfm: verifiying that the target doesn't drop below the minimum target for the chain is part of the protocol.
1165 2011-06-14 12:24:31 cryptocnt has joined
1166 2011-06-14 12:24:32 <lfm> roconnor: I call it a policy, the protocol is the format of the stuff on the net that is exchanged by nodes. it is easy to change policies but hard to change the protocol
1167 2011-06-14 12:25:06 <roconnor> In GetNextWorkRequired it does:
1168 2011-06-14 12:25:09 <sipa> i call it a policy as soon as a client can implement it without causing a block chain split
1169 2011-06-14 12:25:15 <roconnor> if (bnNew > bnProofOfWorkLimit)
1170 2011-06-14 12:25:16 <roconnor> bnNew = bnProofOfWorkLimit;
1171 2011-06-14 12:25:27 <sipa> if you change the proof of work limit, you have a chance for introducing a split
1172 2011-06-14 12:25:29 <roconnor> GetNextWorkRequired is part of the protocol I argue.
1173 2011-06-14 12:25:34 <lfm> roconnor: ya, fine, it looks easy to change to me
1174 2011-06-14 12:25:58 <sipa> sure it is easy
1175 2011-06-14 12:26:03 <sipa> but not correct
1176 2011-06-14 12:26:31 <lfm> if I wanted to make another block chain of my own like the main net or the testnet, I could easily change that policy
1177 2011-06-14 12:26:34 <roconnor> lfm: That's true, but it would be a different protocol, one that might happen to be compatible with the chain built so far, but a different protocol.
1178 2011-06-14 12:26:47 <lfm> but I would still be using the same protocol
1179 2011-06-14 12:27:02 <roconnor> I guess it depends on exactly what we mean by "protocol"
1180 2011-06-14 12:27:10 <sipa> introducing a new script opcode, would that be changing the protocol for you, lfm?
1181 2011-06-14 12:27:16 <gmaxwell> We had a stupid debate over this in #bitcoin a day ago.
1182 2011-06-14 12:27:49 <roconnor> In my use, testnet and mainnet are running different protocols
1183 2011-06-14 12:27:54 <lfm> like I said the protocol is the format of the data on the net, that is exchanged by nodes. it is polies that restrict what data is put into those formats
1184 2011-06-14 12:27:56 <gmaxwell> I think we decided that the blockchain rules were not protocol they were "algorithm" because they must be followed the same exactly by everyone.
1185 2011-06-14 12:27:59 <roconnor> but I can see why someone would claim they are running the same protocol
1186 2011-06-14 12:28:08 <roconnor> gmaxwell: ah okay
1187 2011-06-14 12:28:10 <gmaxwell> (wherease you can gateway from protcol to protocol)
1188 2011-06-14 12:28:18 <roconnor> I'm happy to use whatever termonology is most clear.
1189 2011-06-14 12:28:19 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1190 2011-06-14 12:28:43 <gmaxwell> well thats what #bitcoin (or at least me and one other person) agreed on. So take that for whatever its worth.
1191 2011-06-14 12:28:47 <roconnor> clearly the wiki page on protocol_rules should be retitled :D
1192 2011-06-14 12:29:06 <roconnor> anyhow
1193 2011-06-14 12:29:19 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1194 2011-06-14 12:29:36 <gmaxwell> It's very likely that there will be multiple network protocols for the single blockchain in the future in any case.. ::shrugs:: (actually depending on how you count things, there already are)
1195 2011-06-14 12:29:43 <lfm> or just have the wiki state what definition of "protocol" it is using
1196 2011-06-14 12:30:26 <gmaxwell> The debate in bitcoin arose because of confusion about what couldn't change without chainging all of bitcoin vs what two nodes can agree to do on their own.
1197 2011-06-14 12:30:34 <sipa> well maybe the wiki is good - there can be multiple data format level protocols that still have the same rules about the data they can legally encode
1198 2011-06-14 12:30:38 <sipa> hence protocol rules :)
1199 2011-06-14 12:30:39 <gmaxwell> And things like relay flooding policy vs blockchain rules.
1200 2011-06-14 12:31:05 Stellar has joined
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1202 2011-06-14 12:32:59 <roconnor> gmaxwell: it is an important disinction
1203 2011-06-14 12:33:38 <roconnor> the minWork isn part of the block chain rules, not like a retransmission policy for peers.
1204 2011-06-14 12:33:42 <lfm> and the fact that testnet and main net use different limits but I would say use the same protocol means to me that the limit is not part of the protocol
1205 2011-06-14 12:34:23 <gmaxwell> I'd normally say that e.g. the blockchain rules are clearly distinct from "protocol" becaus protocol is what cares about things like byte ordering and structure padding... except for the fact that the blockchain does care about these things due to the hashes.
1206 2011-06-14 12:34:34 hachque has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1207 2011-06-14 12:34:52 <roconnor> BTW, the fact that testnet has a different limit is kinda annoying :D
1208 2011-06-14 12:35:13 <sipa> so, let's call it 1. rules (what the semantic data can be to be called bitcoin), 2. protocol (the current p2p transport layer) and 3. policies (relay policy, fee policy, block incusion policy) which may be needed to good usability of the system, but can be changed without breaking things
1209 2011-06-14 12:35:26 <lfm> roconnor: I agree with that actually, and its not needed
1210 2011-06-14 12:35:42 <gmaxwell> I wish the testnet had a low _maximum_ difficulty. It's annoying to test things where you have to mine in the testnet.
1211 2011-06-14 12:36:34 <lfm> sipa ok you and gmaxwell seem to agree that policies are flexable from node to node where "rules" need to be the same for the whole net
1212 2011-06-14 12:36:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: that sounds agreeable to me.
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1214 2011-06-14 12:37:31 <gmaxwell> Yea, rules are "that which fork the network when you disagree" pretty much. Any change in rules and you'll eventually have parallel blockchains.
1215 2011-06-14 12:37:32 <sipa> and 1. and 2. are indeed closely linked, as roconnor notes, through the hashing functions
1216 2011-06-14 12:38:18 <roconnor> the minWork is not part of the transport layer, which is why I wasn't calling it the protocol. :D
1217 2011-06-14 12:38:22 <gmaxwell> Though they don't have to be. You could have transport which is entirely different then converts back to the canonical form. Dunno why (paranoid security?) but you could.
1218 2011-06-14 12:38:51 <roconnor> gmaxwell: exactly
1219 2011-06-14 12:39:21 <lfm> like you could specifiy that the minWork value exists within the protocol but not specify its value
1220 2011-06-14 12:39:42 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r92 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java: Fix an assertion in Wallet to use the correct type.
1221 2011-06-14 12:40:11 <lfm> the value would be part of the spcifications for each net
1222 2011-06-14 12:40:27 <lfm> rules if you will
1223 2011-06-14 12:40:29 <roconnor> indeed
1224 2011-06-14 12:40:50 <sipa> ah yes, the protocol could be common for all networks, while the rules can differ
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1226 2011-06-14 12:41:58 <lfm> so you also have rules for the address prefix (00 for main net and 111 for testnet)
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1228 2011-06-14 12:43:01 <gmaxwell> the above definitions have nice scoping too: Rules must be common to everyone, Protocol must be common between two communcating nodes, policy can be node-specific.
1229 2011-06-14 12:43:25 <gmaxwell> (everyone in a single hash-chain universe, at least!)
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1232 2011-06-14 12:44:41 <lfm> protocol is common beyond "communicating nodes" to other nets using the bitcoin protocl. if you change it you should change the name of it too I think
1233 2011-06-14 12:44:43 hachque has joined
1234 2011-06-14 12:45:09 <sipa> moreover, protocol is independent from which block chain you are using
1235 2011-06-14 12:45:38 pirrr has joined
1236 2011-06-14 12:46:13 <lfm> the rules could be implemented in a config file even I think
1237 2011-06-14 12:47:10 <lfm> or if you think that is too flexable, a header file
1238 2011-06-14 12:47:30 <gmaxwell> or a cpp file that overlays varrious objects...
1239 2011-06-14 12:47:36 <gmaxwell> and you could call it namecoin.
1240 2011-06-14 12:47:37 <gmaxwell> ;)
1241 2011-06-14 12:47:45 <diki> ;;bc,calcd 400000 1333
1242 2011-06-14 12:47:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1333, is 3 hours, 58 minutes, and 32 seconds
1243 2011-06-14 12:48:02 <lfm> welcome back gribble
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1247 2011-06-14 12:49:49 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r93 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/PingService.java: Improve the documentation for the PingService. Patch by Gary Rowe.
1248 2011-06-14 12:50:52 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r94 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/PingService.java: Mention testnet in a box in the PingService docs.
1249 2011-06-14 12:51:46 <gmaxwell> hahah someone actually mined against an address I've used in IRC for example eligius URLs and I just got a generate txn payment of 0.00003585 BTC.
1250 2011-06-14 12:52:27 <lfm> you're rich!
1251 2011-06-14 12:53:43 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
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1253 2011-06-14 12:56:06 <TommyBoy3G> sipa update bitcoin.org
1254 2011-06-14 12:56:37 <TommyBoy3G> and please inclute changelog for users what's in new version
1255 2011-06-14 12:57:52 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
1256 2011-06-14 12:58:52 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1258 2011-06-14 13:01:35 hachque has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1259 2011-06-14 13:01:54 <lfm> who made the new bitcoin tar.gz for linux?
1260 2011-06-14 13:01:55 Gxxxx has left ("Leaving.")
1261 2011-06-14 13:02:26 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r95 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Add a SeedPeers class that contains a pre-compiled list of IP addresses taking part in the Bitcoin network for a long period of time, for use if IRC and DNS are unavailable. Based on a patch by Micheal Swiggs.
1262 2011-06-14 13:03:16 <sipa> TommyBoy3G: i don't have access to the homepage
1263 2011-06-14 13:03:54 dvide has joined
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1265 2011-06-14 13:05:44 <topi`> haha. I tried mining on a 3ghz Pentium4. the C algo gives 106 khash/s :) :)
1266 2011-06-14 13:07:20 NOTAL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1267 2011-06-14 13:07:25 <lfm> sipa do you know who made the new 0.3.23-linux.tar.gz file? they did not put in a base directory, just tared up "." current dir it seems so it extracts all over your current dir instead of making a nice new dir
1268 2011-06-14 13:08:21 <sipa> lfm: that could be my fault - i built it and sent it to jgarzik
1269 2011-06-14 13:08:53 Justasic has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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1271 2011-06-14 13:09:45 <lfm> sipa ok, dont be too surprized if you get some hate mail over it! grin. it didnt bather me too much but I did notice
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1274 2011-06-14 13:11:21 <lfm> ohoh , the version in the help menu (linux gui version still sez it is BETA too
1275 2011-06-14 13:12:03 <sipa> it is
1276 2011-06-14 13:12:17 <ArtForz> iirc it always did
1277 2011-06-14 13:12:34 <lfm> oh, I thot it was a full release
1278 2011-06-14 13:12:51 <sipa> all versions up to 1.0 will be called beta, i assume
1279 2011-06-14 13:13:02 <ArtForz> yup, makes sense
1280 2011-06-14 13:13:19 <sipa> or we could go google-style and call it beta forever
1281 2011-06-14 13:13:24 <lfm> oh ok ya, makes sense
1282 2011-06-14 13:13:28 <sipa> beta - it's the new stable!
1283 2011-06-14 13:13:34 <ArtForz> yep
1284 2011-06-14 13:13:46 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1285 2011-06-14 13:13:49 <ArtForz> but well, current mainline sure as hell aint 1.0 material
1286 2011-06-14 13:13:57 <lfm> so like version 1.0 is the last version
1287 2011-06-14 13:14:24 <lfm> ever
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1289 2011-06-14 13:14:43 AnonX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1290 2011-06-14 13:14:44 <sipa> or we could go latex-style and converge to some irrational number :)
1291 2011-06-14 13:15:04 peter345978 has left ()
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1293 2011-06-14 13:15:36 <lfm> what is some nice irrational number < 1.0
1294 2011-06-14 13:16:04 <lfm> just 1/e
1295 2011-06-14 13:16:17 AnonX has joined
1296 2011-06-14 13:16:43 <lfm> .36787944117144232159
1297 2011-06-14 13:16:48 <sipa> ;;calc 1/e
1298 2011-06-14 13:16:49 <gribble> 1 / e = 0.367879441
1299 2011-06-14 13:17:14 <d1234> ;;bc,stats
1300 2011-06-14 13:17:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130752 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 287 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 25 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 847754.23151239
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1303 2011-06-14 13:18:03 <lfm> equivalent of
1304 2011-06-14 13:18:11 <lfm> ;;calc e(-1)
1305 2011-06-14 13:18:12 <gribble> e * (-1) = -2.71828183
1306 2011-06-14 13:18:22 <lfm> ;;calc exp(-1)
1307 2011-06-14 13:18:22 <gribble> exp(-1) = 0.367879441
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1312 2011-06-14 13:22:39 * roconnor wonders how often a coin is produced and spent in one block.
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1315 2011-06-14 13:23:24 <roconnor> (produced as an output from a transaction, not from coinbase)
1316 2011-06-14 13:23:35 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: almost never
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1318 2011-06-14 13:23:44 <roconnor> I guess so
1319 2011-06-14 13:24:00 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: old old client let you do it though so it is a possibility
1320 2011-06-14 13:24:11 DukeOfURL has joined
1321 2011-06-14 13:24:59 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Incidents see first section
1322 2011-06-14 13:25:02 <sipa> clients now allow it too
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1324 2011-06-14 13:25:06 <sipa> just do a spend to self
1325 2011-06-14 13:25:11 <sipa> and then another transaction
1326 2011-06-14 13:25:17 <roconnor> oh
1327 2011-06-14 13:25:22 <sipa> with not enough other coins available
1328 2011-06-14 13:25:27 <roconnor> then they might be a little more common than I thought
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1334 2011-06-14 13:38:50 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: did you change the magic version numbers in your showwallet tree?
1335 2011-06-14 13:39:14 <sipa> those haven't changed since the first dumpprivkey patch
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1337 2011-06-14 13:39:50 <jrmithdobbs> ok and the format is: <version><privkey bigendian><checksum prev portion of string> yes?
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1339 2011-06-14 13:40:02 <jrmithdobbs> "string"
1340 2011-06-14 13:41:06 <jrmithdobbs> i ask cause my results are not ending up with a 5 at the front after being base58 encoded but my base58 encoding is def working
1341 2011-06-14 13:41:30 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r96 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java: Add more info to the Wallet.toString() output.
1342 2011-06-14 13:41:33 <jrmithdobbs> (same data on bitcointools/bitcoinj's base58 produce same output)
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1345 2011-06-14 13:42:59 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r97 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/RefreshWallet.java: Add a program that just loads a wallet, runs through the block chain, and then saves/prints out the resulting wallet at the end.
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1368 2011-06-14 13:59:12 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r98 /trunk/AUTHORS: Refresh AUTHORS file.
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1373 2011-06-14 14:07:36 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1374 2011-06-14 14:07:37 <gribble> 130759
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1391 2011-06-14 14:23:42 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1392 2011-06-14 14:23:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130765 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 274 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 9 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 849476.82996476
1393 2011-06-14 14:24:06 <diki> ;;bc,calc 660000
1394 2011-06-14 14:24:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 660000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 6 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 34 minutes, and 58 seconds
1395 2011-06-14 14:24:17 <diki> ;;bc,gen 660000
1396 2011-06-14 14:24:18 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 660000 Khps, given current difficulty of 567358.22457067 , is 1.17006628694 BTC per day and 0.0487527619556 BTC per hour.
1397 2011-06-14 14:24:36 <diki> ;;bc,gend 660000 849476.82996476
1398 2011-06-14 14:24:36 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 660000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 849476.82996476, is 0.781477148957 BTC per day and 0.0325615478732 BTC per hour.
1399 2011-06-14 14:25:54 <Wuked> When did this forum limit come into force ?
1400 2011-06-14 14:26:00 <Wuked> I was happily posting a few days ago
1401 2011-06-14 14:26:05 <Wuked> now I'm stuck in the n00b section :)
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1405 2011-06-14 14:26:33 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,gend 480000 849476.82996476
1406 2011-06-14 14:26:33 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 480000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 849476.82996476, is 0.568347017423 BTC per day and 0.023681125726 BTC per hour.
1407 2011-06-14 14:27:16 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1408 2011-06-14 14:27:48 <Anon176> hello
1409 2011-06-14 14:28:08 Lenovo01 has quit (Client Quit)
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1411 2011-06-14 14:28:42 <Anon176> i would like to talk about the issues of deflation and hoarding
1412 2011-06-14 14:28:49 anarchyx has quit ()
1413 2011-06-14 14:29:37 <Anon176> i think i have a solution although unfortunately i think bitcoin would not be able to or want to use it and a new currency would have to be created
1414 2011-06-14 14:30:18 <CIA-90> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r6afe6d2dd4df supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Market/plugin.py: Market: update mtgox urls to https, since http stopped working... http://tinyurl.com/44ktz5e
1415 2011-06-14 14:30:42 <Anon176> as we know, there are only a limited amount of bitcoins, and that is not necessarily the problem.
1416 2011-06-14 14:31:05 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1417 2011-06-14 14:31:12 falafell has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1418 2011-06-14 14:31:26 <sanity> anyone have any idea why my script would suddenly be getting a HTML page in response to http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php since today, yet when I visit the same URL in my browser I get the JSON object as before?
1419 2011-06-14 14:31:53 <Anon176> but, some people have argued that because deflation with bitcoin is predicted, it won't be a problem.
1420 2011-06-14 14:33:16 falafell has joined
1421 2011-06-14 14:33:22 <Anon176> but, they are wrong, because as it is we cannot predict the rate of deflation, we only know there will be deflation.
1422 2011-06-14 14:33:59 <Anon176> which then becomes as much of a problem as unpredictable inflation.
1423 2011-06-14 14:34:16 skeledrew1 has joined
1424 2011-06-14 14:34:42 <Anon176> and the reason of unpredictability is this: bitcoins are immortal.
1425 2011-06-14 14:35:13 danbri has joined
1426 2011-06-14 14:35:28 <Anon176> if people lose their wallets, the money never goes back into the system, so the value of bitcoins increases, and that is unpredictable.
1427 2011-06-14 14:35:41 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1428 2011-06-14 14:36:13 <Anon176> bitcoins become more and more scarce. which also means the early adopters are disproportionally rich.
1429 2011-06-14 14:36:27 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1430 2011-06-14 14:36:45 <md2k7> sanity: HTTP headers, especially user-agent or a cookie
1431 2011-06-14 14:37:24 <Anon176> and all of this encourages hoarding, as opposed to actual use as a currency.
1432 2011-06-14 14:37:26 <sanity> md2k7: what, its discriminating against particular user agents?
1433 2011-06-14 14:38:16 <md2k7> sanity: that's just what comes to my mind, given that both accesses were from the same machine.
1434 2011-06-14 14:38:29 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1435 2011-06-14 14:38:39 <Anon176> so here is my suggestion for technical developers: define a decomposing rate for bitcoins.
1436 2011-06-14 14:38:40 <md2k7> sanity: ah, or browser cache.
1437 2011-06-14 14:38:44 SomeoneWeird has joined
1438 2011-06-14 14:39:03 <SomeoneWeird> Guys, just released BitMiner Beta 4!
1439 2011-06-14 14:39:12 <SomeoneWeird> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12135.0
1440 2011-06-14 14:39:15 <sipa> Anon176: what is a composing rate?
1441 2011-06-14 14:39:21 <sipa> *decomposing?
1442 2011-06-14 14:39:22 johnlockwood_ has joined
1443 2011-06-14 14:39:39 <sipa> you mean coins that devaluate over time?
1444 2011-06-14 14:39:46 <topi`> Anon176: you mean that you want to have demurrage in bitcoins?
1445 2011-06-14 14:39:51 <Anon176> sipa: i wrote decomposing rate. let me explain it to you.
1446 2011-06-14 14:40:17 <topi`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)
1447 2011-06-14 14:41:27 <Anon176> topi: i do not understand demurrage well. but i think it's different.
1448 2011-06-14 14:41:58 <Anon176> topi: maybe its the same i have to read more, thanks for the link.
1449 2011-06-14 14:42:33 <Anon176> but i don't mean reducing the value of the coins. i mean reducing the actual size of it.
1450 2011-06-14 14:42:48 <Anon176> and the rest goes back into the mining pool.
1451 2011-06-14 14:43:13 <Anon176> so that no more money needs to be created, but no money is lost forever.
1452 2011-06-14 14:43:14 <sipa> what is 'size' ?
1453 2011-06-14 14:43:50 johnlockwood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1454 2011-06-14 14:44:03 <Anon176> sipa: suppose i have 1 bitcoin today, tomorrow 0.00000001 goes back into the system and i am left with 0.99999999.
1455 2011-06-14 14:44:38 <topi`> Anon176: that would in fact be cool, but i'm afraid bitcoin's creator had something else in his mind
1456 2011-06-14 14:44:48 <topi`> namely, a good *store* of value
1457 2011-06-14 14:44:51 <topi`> just like gold
1458 2011-06-14 14:45:25 <Anon176> topi, the problem is that not only the creator gets rich, it encourages hgoarding rather than use.
1459 2011-06-14 14:45:27 <Anon176> this cannot be stable in the long run.
1460 2011-06-14 14:45:27 <topi`> for that same reason, gold is not the best choice for a currency meant for circulation. but it isn't bad either.
1461 2011-06-14 14:45:52 <topi`> Anon176: every creator of a new currency system (even before dollars and such) has become rich
1462 2011-06-14 14:45:55 <topi`> there's no way around that fact
1463 2011-06-14 14:46:15 <topi`> now, the geeks and nerds are the new Rockefellers
1464 2011-06-14 14:46:18 <topi`> eat that, you pigs!
1465 2011-06-14 14:46:23 <Anon176> there is a way, if the coins decomposed over time.
1466 2011-06-14 14:46:37 <Optimo> coins aren't tracked
1467 2011-06-14 14:46:37 <Anon176> the lost coins would all go back to the system.
1468 2011-06-14 14:46:51 <Optimo> there's no serial nuimmbers
1469 2011-06-14 14:46:54 Dobrodav has joined
1470 2011-06-14 14:47:04 <Anon176> that's why i think bitcoin won't succed, even though i lopve the idea.
1471 2011-06-14 14:47:15 <Optimo> lost coins will only be like 1%
1472 2011-06-14 14:47:25 wardearia has joined
1473 2011-06-14 14:48:00 <Anon176> optimo: you cannot predict the amount of lost coins, but even if you could, it will only increase over time.
1474 2011-06-14 14:48:03 Pilate has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1475 2011-06-14 14:48:22 <Optimo> you can predict with some certainty based on human behaviors
1476 2011-06-14 14:48:29 <Optimo> a %
1477 2011-06-14 14:48:32 Pilate has joined
1478 2011-06-14 14:48:36 glicth-mod has joined
1479 2011-06-14 14:48:36 glicth-mod is now known as glitch-mod
1480 2011-06-14 14:48:48 <Anon176> yes, but even so, it will only increase the scarcity anyway.
1481 2011-06-14 14:49:00 <sipa> yes, a bit
1482 2011-06-14 14:49:06 <Optimo> you're making too big a deal of it. 1-2% is nothing
1483 2011-06-14 14:49:14 <Anon176> even if you know lost coins are 1%, they never go bakc.
1484 2011-06-14 14:49:23 <Optimo> that's not a problem
1485 2011-06-14 14:49:37 Lenovo01 has joined
1486 2011-06-14 14:49:38 <Optimo> it's a 'fact of life'
1487 2011-06-14 14:50:03 <sipa> even if you lose 5% of coins per year
1488 2011-06-14 14:50:06 <Anon176> it is a problem because it means the value of bitcoins will only increase.
1489 2011-06-14 14:50:18 <sipa> it takes 45 year before we lose one decimal of precision
1490 2011-06-14 14:50:21 <Optimo> and that is all planned for
1491 2011-06-14 14:50:28 <sipa> and i fail to see why increased value is a problem
1492 2011-06-14 14:51:00 <Anon176> increased value is a problem as much as decreased value is a problem (inflation)
1493 2011-06-14 14:51:22 <sipa> instability is a problem
1494 2011-06-14 14:51:32 <sipa> short term changes in value
1495 2011-06-14 14:51:40 <Optimo> but it's not artificially made lost, its a natural function
1496 2011-06-14 14:51:51 <Optimo> the unnatural inflation is what we want to avoid
1497 2011-06-14 14:52:25 <Anon176> with bank notes and gold it is rare that they are lost. with bitcoins this will be much more common.
1498 2011-06-14 14:52:33 AStove has joined
1499 2011-06-14 14:52:36 <Anon176> we want to avoid both extreme inflation and extreme deflation.
1500 2011-06-14 14:52:42 <edcba> so wtf with that hacked guy ?
1501 2011-06-14 14:52:49 <Optimo> 1-2% is nowhere near extreme
1502 2011-06-14 14:52:56 <edcba> forum is almost dead
1503 2011-06-14 14:53:21 <Anon176> you don't know for sure it's 1-2%.
1504 2011-06-14 14:53:23 <Optimo> I'm sure gold is lost as much as would be possible if gold coins were still widely circulated
1505 2011-06-14 14:53:31 <Optimo> and you don't know it's more than 1%
1506 2011-06-14 14:53:38 <sipa> Anon176: neither do you, yet that's what you want to use to fix it
1507 2011-06-14 14:53:41 <edcba> maybe we should implement bitcoin tainting
1508 2011-06-14 14:53:54 <Anon176> that's the point, we don't know. we claim to know but we don't.
1509 2011-06-14 14:54:03 <edcba> associate some color to bitcoins and be warned when someone sent them to you
1510 2011-06-14 14:54:05 <Anon176> we don't know the consequences of eternal money.
1511 2011-06-14 14:54:06 <Optimo> guess how much gold is at the bottom of the seas
1512 2011-06-14 14:54:08 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1513 2011-06-14 14:54:09 <sipa> Anon176: i don't claim to know
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1516 2011-06-14 14:54:23 <Optimo> Anon176, but we do know to an extent, we have a guess because of human nature
1517 2011-06-14 14:54:35 <sipa> Anon176: but bitcoin is designed to represent a finite resource
1518 2011-06-14 14:54:35 <Anon176> sipa, i mean that some people claim to know.
1519 2011-06-14 14:54:59 <sipa> and i'm sure another introduction function could have been chosen, and the current one is far from optimal
1520 2011-06-14 14:55:05 <Anon176> it is not finite if it allows the coins to last forever.
1521 2011-06-14 14:55:05 <sipa> but it is what everyone up to now signed up for
1522 2011-06-14 14:55:06 Dobrodav has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1523 2011-06-14 14:55:10 <Optimo> Anon176, there are studies that can help to guess. there are figures for lost units in other currencies
1524 2011-06-14 14:55:18 <sipa> Anon176: ?
1525 2011-06-14 14:55:28 stellan0r has joined
1526 2011-06-14 14:55:42 jine_ is now known as jine
1527 2011-06-14 14:55:51 Pinion has joined
1528 2011-06-14 14:55:51 <stellan0r> hey, is the forum ddos'd or why is it down?
1529 2011-06-14 14:56:00 <Anon176> studies of other currencies cannot be used because in other currencies the government prints more when needed.
1530 2011-06-14 14:56:11 onovy has joined
1531 2011-06-14 14:56:11 <Anon176> sorry sipa, whats the question?
1532 2011-06-14 14:56:13 danbri has joined
1533 2011-06-14 14:56:18 SomeoneWeird has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1534 2011-06-14 14:56:37 <Optimo> studies from other currencies can be used. you're just speculating
1535 2011-06-14 14:56:44 <Optimo> human behavior is what loses coins
1536 2011-06-14 14:56:47 netcrack has joined
1537 2011-06-14 14:56:54 <sipa> Anon176: how can it not be a finite resource, if there is a known absolute limit?
1538 2011-06-14 14:56:54 <Optimo> there is some predictability in that
1539 2011-06-14 14:56:59 <md2k7> stellan0r: many bitcoin-related sites are being dos'ed, including the forum and mtgox
1540 2011-06-14 14:57:11 <Anon176> no, listen, with other currencies the government can always print more how do you take that into account?:
1541 2011-06-14 14:57:33 <Optimo> that doesnt change how many units they report are 'lost' each year
1542 2011-06-14 14:57:37 <sipa> fiat currencies are no finite resource
1543 2011-06-14 14:57:39 <Optimo> that doesnt change the %
1544 2011-06-14 14:57:48 <sipa> they were another interesting thing that could have been modelled
1545 2011-06-14 14:57:48 <Anon176> sipa, it has eternal duration.
1546 2011-06-14 14:57:56 <Optimo> it's % of units, not % of value
1547 2011-06-14 14:58:02 <topi`> Anon176: you don't think people won't lose their bank notes?
1548 2011-06-14 14:58:16 <topi`> i think that's much more likely than losing bitcoins, since it's easy to back up your wallet.
1549 2011-06-14 14:58:20 <onovy> hi all. i have really stable long running node, with 100/100 connectivity and static ip. Is it possible to add it to net.cpp:1171 as pnSeed[]?
1550 2011-06-14 14:58:26 <Anon176> topi, of course they do but then the government prints more.
1551 2011-06-14 14:58:36 <Anon176> that's the point, they are replaced.
1552 2011-06-14 14:58:38 <Optimo> that doesn't change the % lost
1553 2011-06-14 14:59:01 <Optimo> they aren't replaced in an accurate fashion
1554 2011-06-14 14:59:06 <Optimo> they just say print abother million
1555 2011-06-14 14:59:11 wiedi has quit (Quit: all you need to do is STOP)
1556 2011-06-14 14:59:13 <sipa> Anon176: so you suggest a central bank in bitcoin that observes the amount in circulation, and introduces new currency based on that?
1557 2011-06-14 14:59:18 <topi`> Anon176: what comes to the lost bitcoins, I also think that as long as the source is natural (not artificial), it's ok
1558 2011-06-14 14:59:19 <Anon176> even if the %lost is teh same we are not inegrating the loss into the system in some way as the government does.
1559 2011-06-14 14:59:24 <sipa> (even respecting the 21M limit)
1560 2011-06-14 14:59:31 <topi`> it will of course make everyone elses coins worth more
1561 2011-06-14 14:59:55 <sipa> Anon176: what you're describing is another interesting experiment, but it is not bitcoin
1562 2011-06-14 15:00:02 <Anon176> sipa, no i am not suggesting that. i am suggesting a fixed amount, but whatever you got decreases over time and is put back into the system, slowly.
1563 2011-06-14 15:00:11 <Anon176> i know it is not bitcoin, yes i do.
1564 2011-06-14 15:00:17 DD- has quit ()
1565 2011-06-14 15:00:22 <nathan7> lala
1566 2011-06-14 15:00:27 Graet has joined
1567 2011-06-14 15:00:29 <Optimo> in order for that formula to be agreeable, you need 'lost moiney' statistics
1568 2011-06-14 15:00:37 <topi`> nathan7: have you already spent your 10000 bitcoins? :)
1569 2011-06-14 15:01:00 <nathan7> I don't have that much
1570 2011-06-14 15:01:01 <sipa> Anon176: i suggest you try it if you like to - but none of the bitcoin developers will accept such a change to the system, neither will most of its users
1571 2011-06-14 15:01:02 <nathan7> I have 20
1572 2011-06-14 15:01:03 Pinion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1573 2011-06-14 15:01:06 <Optimo> either way, people would have to agree on how many were really lost, it's then an esitmation og that lost %
1574 2011-06-14 15:01:06 <nathan7> I once had 700.
1575 2011-06-14 15:01:14 <topi`> nathan7: what happened to your 700?
1576 2011-06-14 15:01:23 <nathan7> topi`: I sold it, back in the day
1577 2011-06-14 15:01:24 <Anon176> i am suggesting that money should be like other commodities like livestock and fruits and vegetables.
1578 2011-06-14 15:01:25 <Anon176> if you don't use it or sell it you lose it.
1579 2011-06-14 15:01:25 <nathan7> $47.
1580 2011-06-14 15:01:27 Pinion has joined
1581 2011-06-14 15:01:35 <hachque> hi everyone, i just finished a first release of a bitcoin management client (which will handle transactions, mining, mining pools and trading)
1582 2011-06-14 15:01:45 <topi`> nathan7: no regrets? :)
1583 2011-06-14 15:01:51 anddam has joined
1584 2011-06-14 15:01:51 <hachque> at the moment it just supports connecting to the OzCoin mining pool and the bitcoin client over RPC
1585 2011-06-14 15:01:55 <hachque> but does anyone want to try it out?
1586 2011-06-14 15:02:04 <sipa> Anon176: you don't lose gold
1587 2011-06-14 15:02:06 Lenovo01 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1588 2011-06-14 15:02:13 <topi`> hachque: what's the idea behind your software?
1589 2011-06-14 15:02:20 <topi`> I mean, what problem do you intend to tackle?
1590 2011-06-14 15:02:24 <nathan7> topi`: Lots.
1591 2011-06-14 15:02:29 <hachque> to collate all of the bitcoin wallets into one client
1592 2011-06-14 15:02:33 <nathan7> But I can't change history.
1593 2011-06-14 15:02:40 <Anon176> sipa, i think you are right most people won't want this, but it's a suggestion for a new currency that developers might want to try in the future as i am not a programmer.
1594 2011-06-14 15:02:43 Lenovo01 has joined
1595 2011-06-14 15:02:45 <hachque> so your mtgox balance, your mybitcoin balance, your own bitcoin server balance, your earnings from mining pools
1596 2011-06-14 15:02:47 <hachque> all in one place
1597 2011-06-14 15:02:48 <topi`> hachque: hm, that's an interesting thing
1598 2011-06-14 15:02:53 metonymous has quit (Quit: metonymous)
1599 2011-06-14 15:03:01 <hachque> source code and prebuilt .crx is at https://github.com/hach-que/Collate
1600 2011-06-14 15:03:16 <Anon176> sipa, you don't lose gold, what is the implication of that, what do you mean?
1601 2011-06-14 15:03:18 <topi`> i'm afraid of losing my coins, so I should disperse my coins to different wallets on different systems
1602 2011-06-14 15:03:26 Marcel has joined
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1604 2011-06-14 15:03:59 <Optimo> there's gold at teh bottom of the sea
1605 2011-06-14 15:04:01 <hachque> at the moment it only supports the local bitcoin client and ozcoin, but the idea is that (since it can be extended with plugins) that you'll be able to just transfer bitcoins between wallets
1606 2011-06-14 15:04:06 <Anon176> also, gold didn't work. bank notes didn't work. i am suggesting something different like bitcoin is different.
1607 2011-06-14 15:04:19 gremlin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1608 2011-06-14 15:04:24 <Optimo> what about lost coins means 'it didn't work'
1609 2011-06-14 15:04:29 <hachque> using a drop down list via the address book (where plugins can register addresses, so mtgox might give you an address and then you can just select MtGox from the drop down when sending)
1610 2011-06-14 15:04:30 <Anon176> i love the concept of bitcoin, but i think it has flaws.
1611 2011-06-14 15:04:33 <Optimo> bitcoin can be successful without having to measure for lost coins
1612 2011-06-14 15:04:40 <Optimo> lost coins is not a flaw
1613 2011-06-14 15:04:45 <Optimo> it's an ideal
1614 2011-06-14 15:04:46 <hachque> at the moment the address book isn't in there though
1615 2011-06-14 15:04:54 <hachque> but hey, it's an 0.1 release :P
1616 2011-06-14 15:04:54 <topi`> Anon176: any other flaws than the deflation aspect?
1617 2011-06-14 15:04:57 <sipa> Anon176: bitcoin certainly has flaws, nobody is arguing about that
1618 2011-06-14 15:05:29 <Anon176> topi, i believe deflation and inflation are all due to encourage hoarding.
1619 2011-06-14 15:05:32 <sipa> but you can't compare it to whatever other currency before in history
1620 2011-06-14 15:05:34 <jeremias> develop a new cryptocurrencies
1621 2011-06-14 15:05:41 <sipa> and as such it is an interesting experiment
1622 2011-06-14 15:05:46 <Optimo> to get people to agree to have part of their coins automatically recirculated means agreeing to some figures about lost currency
1623 2011-06-14 15:06:06 <Anon176> sipa, i think bitcoin is great, i am not saying its not a new revolutionary idea.
1624 2011-06-14 15:06:26 <sipa> Anon176: your suggestion is btw exactly identical to have exponentially increasing block reward
1625 2011-06-14 15:06:30 CrazyEddy has joined
1626 2011-06-14 15:06:31 <Anon176> optimo, no the coins would have a fixed rate established from the start.
1627 2011-06-14 15:06:52 <sipa> right, but say we choose 1% per year reissued
1628 2011-06-14 15:06:57 <Optimo> but that rate is a human-made thing, it would be based in common economics
1629 2011-06-14 15:07:05 <sipa> what if the actual loss rate is 2%?
1630 2011-06-14 15:07:10 <Optimo> exactly
1631 2011-06-14 15:07:10 <sipa> you still have 1% lost coins
1632 2011-06-14 15:07:14 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
1633 2011-06-14 15:07:21 <sipa> and there is nothing you can do about it
1634 2011-06-14 15:07:23 <md2k7> well, one *could* determine how much coins there are that weren't used for a long time
1635 2011-06-14 15:07:34 <md2k7> just look in the block chain for the last transaction with them
1636 2011-06-14 15:07:35 <sipa> i argue that any fixed percentage you choose will be wrong
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1638 2011-06-14 15:07:40 <directhex> md2k7, how do you tell the difference between hoarded and lost?
1639 2011-06-14 15:07:45 <Anon176> why is this the same as exponentially increasing block reward?
1640 2011-06-14 15:07:55 <Anon176> directhex, there is no difference.
1641 2011-06-14 15:07:57 <md2k7> directhex: that'd be the point, you wouldn't.
1642 2011-06-14 15:07:57 <Optimo> decreasing
1643 2011-06-14 15:08:10 <md2k7> directhex: that would encourage circulating Bitcoins instead of hoarding them.
1644 2011-06-14 15:08:18 <sipa> Anon176: if you count not in bitcoin, but in your_bitcoin/total_supply
1645 2011-06-14 15:08:20 pRjck3vC has joined
1646 2011-06-14 15:08:22 <Anon176> of course not, thats the point too. it would discourage hoarding.
1647 2011-06-14 15:08:22 <sipa> it is identical
1648 2011-06-14 15:08:29 <directhex> yikes. sounds like zimbabean dollars
1649 2011-06-14 15:08:36 <Optimo> seems the same difference to me
1650 2011-06-14 15:08:41 <directhex> 100 trillion dollars! expires at midnight
1651 2011-06-14 15:08:46 johnlockwood_ has joined
1652 2011-06-14 15:08:53 <md2k7> sounds like using sacks of grain for payment
1653 2011-06-14 15:08:56 theboos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1654 2011-06-14 15:08:59 <Optimo> it's /your/ wealth, yours to lose
1655 2011-06-14 15:09:04 <Anon176> sipa, say it decomposes at 1% a day regardless of how much there is in you.
1656 2011-06-14 15:09:14 <md2k7> I'm not saying that's supposed to be very compatible with our current concept of money
1657 2011-06-14 15:09:25 <sipa> Anon176: that's the same as introducing 1% of the current supply every day
1658 2011-06-14 15:09:26 <Optimo> but you don't even agree with 1% so how do we agree on a %
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1661 2011-06-14 15:09:39 graingert has joined
1662 2011-06-14 15:09:46 <Anon176> sipa, but that does back to mining.
1663 2011-06-14 15:09:51 <sipa> Anon176: yes
1664 2011-06-14 15:09:52 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1665 2011-06-14 15:09:54 <sipa> in both cases
1666 2011-06-14 15:10:13 <topi`> Anon176: did you notice that inflation does *not* encourage hoarding? deflation does.
1667 2011-06-14 15:10:25 <Optimo> people lose shit.
1668 2011-06-14 15:10:27 <Anon176> md2k7, its not compatible, it's different.
1669 2011-06-14 15:10:47 falafell has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1670 2011-06-14 15:11:02 <Optimo> your perfect idea requires some self-aware currency
1671 2011-06-14 15:11:09 Marcel has joined
1672 2011-06-14 15:11:18 <Anon176> the root problem is hoarding. inflation is not necessarily a problem if its precisely defined, but it's never, the government prints money whenever they like.
1673 2011-06-14 15:11:47 <Anon176> topi, actually when there is inflation people are encouraged to 'save'.
1674 2011-06-14 15:11:56 <Anon176> we need a system that will not encourage hoarding.
1675 2011-06-14 15:12:06 stahi has joined
1676 2011-06-14 15:12:07 <Optimo> not possible
1677 2011-06-14 15:12:10 <Optimo> it's uman nature
1678 2011-06-14 15:12:24 <md2k7> I have to admit though, that hoarding is not very good for stability
1679 2011-06-14 15:12:35 <Anon176> optimo, this could be said about everything, that's not an argumenbt.
1680 2011-06-14 15:12:46 <md2k7> imagine some guy deciding to dump his 1M BTC into the market today.
1681 2011-06-14 15:12:50 <Optimo> it is an argument
1682 2011-06-14 15:13:01 <Anon176> 'human nature' 'fact of life' not a validf argument i'm afraid.
1683 2011-06-14 15:13:05 <Optimo> it's the same argument as a reason for not adopting a recirculating coin
1684 2011-06-14 15:13:14 <Optimo> you can't control people
1685 2011-06-14 15:13:54 <Anon176> optimo, you can't hoard apples.
1686 2011-06-14 15:14:06 <Anon176> i am suggesting a living money system.
1687 2011-06-14 15:14:06 <Optimo> because they rot?
1688 2011-06-14 15:14:11 <Anon176> yes.
1689 2011-06-14 15:14:17 <topi`> Anon176: I definately don't want to 'save' in an inflatory currency, like the EUro. I will want to invest my Euros in something more useful, like a house.
1690 2011-06-14 15:14:22 <Anon176> slowly perishable money.
1691 2011-06-14 15:14:41 sanity_ has joined
1692 2011-06-14 15:14:42 <Optimo> you only need that model if you worry about unit supply
1693 2011-06-14 15:14:56 _ape has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1694 2011-06-14 15:15:08 <topi`> so, people *will* hoard, no matter what
1695 2011-06-14 15:15:24 <topi`> I just hoard the house instead of the stupid inflatory currency.
1696 2011-06-14 15:15:27 <Anon176> if money was perishable, the people who make it would not be benefit so much nmore than everyone else. they would have to either sell it at market value or use it.
1697 2011-06-14 15:15:39 <Optimo> or let it rot
1698 2011-06-14 15:15:44 sanity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1699 2011-06-14 15:15:52 <topi`> Anon176: do you think that people who "make" bitcoins will benefit from it a lot?
1700 2011-06-14 15:16:03 zippy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1701 2011-06-14 15:16:06 <Anon176> if bitcojn suceeds, the early adopters will be zillionaires.
1702 2011-06-14 15:16:08 sanity has joined
1703 2011-06-14 15:16:10 <topi`> it is a "service" as well, for everyone who uses btc
1704 2011-06-14 15:16:19 <topi`> Anon176: i'm waiting for that :D
1705 2011-06-14 15:16:19 <Anon176> topi, the early adopters already created about 1 third of all the money.
1706 2011-06-14 15:16:24 <topi`> (to become a millionaire)
1707 2011-06-14 15:16:34 <topi`> Anon176: I know, but that includes me and my little bro :)
1708 2011-06-14 15:16:40 <Optimo> so if I let it rot.. but I just keep making more what's the gain?
1709 2011-06-14 15:16:58 <Anon176> topi, if people used the money, the few who started this will get filthy rich.
1710 2011-06-14 15:16:58 <topi`> I don't see any way of bootstrapping a successful currency *without* making the early adopters rich
1711 2011-06-14 15:17:15 <topi`> exactly, that's what i'm hoping:)
1712 2011-06-14 15:17:34 <Anon176> topi, make them get some for it but not too much.
1713 2011-06-14 15:17:36 <topi`> since I did not spend my coins, unlike nathan7 ;)
1714 2011-06-14 15:17:41 <Anon176> thats bad for the economy.
1715 2011-06-14 15:17:48 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
1716 2011-06-14 15:18:07 <roconnor> sipa: running with +RTS -c enables compacting collection garbage collector and runs in less space!
1717 2011-06-14 15:18:07 _ape has joined
1718 2011-06-14 15:18:10 <Anon176> optimo, they gain like producers of aplles gain.
1719 2011-06-14 15:18:26 <Optimo> but it doesnt help your cause
1720 2011-06-14 15:18:35 <Anon176> there would be money farmers like apple farmers.
1721 2011-06-14 15:18:38 <Optimo> they might choose to not help circulate
1722 2011-06-14 15:18:39 <topi`> you should not view bitcoins as a commodity, but rather as a service
1723 2011-06-14 15:18:41 <graingert> how difficult is it for the bitcoin client to support pgp symetric encryption of wallets and ask for a pin number/ passphrase to send money?
1724 2011-06-14 15:18:47 <nathan7> POW
1725 2011-06-14 15:18:51 topi` has joined
1726 2011-06-14 15:18:58 <nathan7> That's what you get for annoying me
1727 2011-06-14 15:18:58 <Anon176> optimo, if they don't circulate their money perishes.
1728 2011-06-14 15:19:00 <topi`> nathan7: sorry :) could not resist
1729 2011-06-14 15:19:10 <nathan7> And I couldn't resist using /kick
1730 2011-06-14 15:19:19 <nathan7> Fact: you hold the honour of being the first person I kicked, afaik
1731 2011-06-14 15:19:22 Teslah has joined
1732 2011-06-14 15:19:25 <topi`> nathan7: are you the only one here with +o ?
1733 2011-06-14 15:19:30 <nathan7> Nope.
1734 2011-06-14 15:19:39 sanity_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1735 2011-06-14 15:20:06 <Anon176> topi, as it is people who provide services intead of say vegetables have an advantage.
1736 2011-06-14 15:20:06 <md2k7> graingert: it's not difficult if you know how to implement it ;-)
1737 2011-06-14 15:20:07 <topi`> Anon176: anyway, i'm writing an article about bitcoin's features and the whole deflatory discussion for p2pfoundation.net
1738 2011-06-14 15:20:14 <topi`> so check it out if you're interested :)
1739 2011-06-14 15:20:15 stellan0r has left ()
1740 2011-06-14 15:20:37 <Optimo> why would someone use your rotting currency instead of bitcoin?
1741 2011-06-14 15:20:40 <Anon176> because if i grow apples, not only have i to work for that i have to convert them for money whereas the dentis gets money straight without conversion.
1742 2011-06-14 15:20:51 <Anon176> dentist*
1743 2011-06-14 15:21:00 AnonX has quit ()
1744 2011-06-14 15:21:05 muffinz has joined
1745 2011-06-14 15:21:12 <topi`> the dentist offers a service, something intangible
1746 2011-06-14 15:21:41 <graingert> md2k7: yeah I guessed as much
1747 2011-06-14 15:21:48 <Anon176> topi, the apple grower offers a service too, growing apples, yet they get less because of conversion.
1748 2011-06-14 15:22:14 <graingert> md2k7: is there an api for GPG?
1749 2011-06-14 15:22:35 <Anon176> optimo, it would not be rotting it is was really slow.
1750 2011-06-14 15:22:39 <graingert> md2k7: or would it be better to just invoke the binary on the cli?
1751 2011-06-14 15:22:45 <Anon176> if it was really slow.
1752 2011-06-14 15:23:13 Joric has quit ()
1753 2011-06-14 15:23:24 <graingert> md2k7: gpgme
1754 2011-06-14 15:23:41 <Anon176> optimo, it could be a really slow decomposing rate, just to put back lost coins and to discourage hoarding.
1755 2011-06-14 15:23:50 Breign has joined
1756 2011-06-14 15:24:06 <topi`> nathan7: in reality, just like Gavin says in an interview, bitcoin's success probably depended on the fact that there were btc *available* (so somebody was selling)from early on, and then free bitcoins from the Faucet
1757 2011-06-14 15:24:06 mmoya has joined
1758 2011-06-14 15:24:16 <graingert> md2k7: hmm http://directory.fsf.org/project/libgcrypt/
1759 2011-06-14 15:24:24 <graingert> md2k7: I will give it a hack sometime
1760 2011-06-14 15:24:25 <nathan7> topi`: I know
1761 2011-06-14 15:24:40 <Optimo> rottign commodity is a break in supply-v-demand, no?
1762 2011-06-14 15:24:59 <nathan7> I know that in the end my bitcoins are part of the reason bitcoin got as far as it did
1763 2011-06-14 15:25:01 <Anon176> topi, as it is bitcoin may be better than the old system but it will still make a few poeple disproportially rich forever.
1764 2011-06-14 15:25:04 <topi`> nathan7: why weren't you into mining?
1765 2011-06-14 15:25:09 <nathan7> topi`: I was.
1766 2011-06-14 15:25:11 <md2k7> graingert: sounds interesting
1767 2011-06-14 15:25:13 <nathan7> I mined 200 of those
1768 2011-06-14 15:25:16 <Optimo> there's nothign wrong with rich early adopters
1769 2011-06-14 15:25:22 <Optimo> I'm not okay with the motive
1770 2011-06-14 15:25:22 <nathan7> The other 500 came from niekie
1771 2011-06-14 15:25:22 <topi`> nathan7: ok, that was with small difficulties, then
1772 2011-06-14 15:25:24 <topi`> ages ago
1773 2011-06-14 15:25:31 <Anon176> optimo, can you call a glass of water rotting? yet it evaporates slowly.
1774 2011-06-14 15:25:37 <nathan7> 500 bitcoins was like $2
1775 2011-06-14 15:25:41 <nathan7> maybe $3
1776 2011-06-14 15:25:50 <nathan7> I sold niekie a bag of cookies for 500 bitcoins
1777 2011-06-14 15:25:51 <Optimo> yes. I would not trade water unless I could stop it's evaporating
1778 2011-06-14 15:25:52 hachque has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1779 2011-06-14 15:25:59 <topi`> Anon176: if I look around me, there's plenty of ppl who got rich because the stupid national currency is *inflatory*
1780 2011-06-14 15:25:59 <nathan7> Optimo: you could like, close the container
1781 2011-06-14 15:26:05 <Optimo> I do understand demurrage
1782 2011-06-14 15:26:05 <nathan7> Optimo: which simplifies transport too
1783 2011-06-14 15:26:12 <topi`> inflatory currencies enable taking interest
1784 2011-06-14 15:26:14 dvide_ has joined
1785 2011-06-14 15:26:14 <nathan7> I probably nom'd half of those cookies myself
1786 2011-06-14 15:26:26 <md2k7> graingert: you would then decrypt the wallet every time for signing transactions
1787 2011-06-14 15:26:28 <topi`> interest rates are a vehicle of transferring money from those who have little to those who have plenty
1788 2011-06-14 15:26:43 <Optimo> nathan7, awesome but a 'evaporating' currency can't be contained
1789 2011-06-14 15:26:46 <md2k7> graingert: altough encryption only solves the problem of your computer being stolen
1790 2011-06-14 15:26:48 <Anon176> topi, yes but what i'm saying is that replacing inflation with deflation is not a solution
1791 2011-06-14 15:26:52 <nathan7> Optimo: q=
1792 2011-06-14 15:27:03 <Optimo> solution to what?
1793 2011-06-14 15:27:17 <topi`> Anon176: my opinion is that interest rates are rendered useless in a deflatoryenvironment
1794 2011-06-14 15:27:18 <Anon176> we need something that is neither if possible, or inbetween.
1795 2011-06-14 15:27:20 <md2k7> graingert: because if someone can gain access, whether physically or via trojan, they can just put a keylogger on your PC to find out your password.
1796 2011-06-14 15:27:24 hereforfun has joined
1797 2011-06-14 15:27:25 <Optimo> there's seemingly a short-term problem with circulation but that will mature
1798 2011-06-14 15:27:31 <nathan7> Fact, abusing your op privileges is satisfying
1799 2011-06-14 15:27:41 <nathan7> (no, not a threat)
1800 2011-06-14 15:27:42 <Anon176> a solution to currency not working. what else.
1801 2011-06-14 15:27:52 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1802 2011-06-14 15:28:12 <Optimo> since man understoof quantitative math there is hoarding and loss
1803 2011-06-14 15:28:22 <Anon176> topi, you may be right but it still doesnt stabalise the economy.
1804 2011-06-14 15:28:23 <md2k7> Optimo, Anon176: I don't currently see a problem in bitcoin circulation, I remember over 10 % of all BTC being traded over a day...
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1806 2011-06-14 15:28:47 <Optimo> I don't se it either, but a hear a lot about trying to evaoprate the money that miners hold
1807 2011-06-14 15:28:50 <Optimo> ;p
1808 2011-06-14 15:29:00 <Anon176> uncontrolled inflation or uncontrolled deflation cause instability
1809 2011-06-14 15:29:11 <roconnor> wow, there were a lot of blocks generated on 2010-07-15 =D
1810 2011-06-14 15:29:38 <Anon176> topi, the problem is that people are assuming that bitcoin has a predicted deflation when it doesnt.
1811 2011-06-14 15:30:04 <Optimo> within a few % it does
1812 2011-06-14 15:30:04 <Anon176> because it doesn't take into account the rate of loss and the hoarding as the usual currencies do by printing more.
1813 2011-06-14 15:30:06 <topi`> Anon176: I don't see a stable economy as a mandatory item
1814 2011-06-14 15:30:20 <topi`> I think most important (for the people) is to have a system where nobody can cheat
1815 2011-06-14 15:30:24 <Optimo> 'usual currencies' can only guess when they print more
1816 2011-06-14 15:30:29 <Optimo> an inaccurate science
1817 2011-06-14 15:30:36 <Anon176> topi, we need a stable currency not necessarily a stable economy.
1818 2011-06-14 15:30:40 <topi`> and inflatory currencies cheat money from those who borrow and transfer that to those who loan
1819 2011-06-14 15:30:45 <topi`> (compound interest)
1820 2011-06-14 15:31:05 <Optimo> if bitcoin takes us through the next 80 years it's done it's job well
1821 2011-06-14 15:31:10 <topi`> compound interest is just completely unethical. and that's why it's actually forbidden in the Q'ran
1822 2011-06-14 15:31:25 <Anon176> topi, i am not saying inflation is good, i am saying deflation is not good either.
1823 2011-06-14 15:31:39 <Optimo> hoarding is fine
1824 2011-06-14 15:31:46 <topi`> Anon176: yes, but I still don't know why you think deflation is bad
1825 2011-06-14 15:31:51 <Optimo> it's called wealth
1826 2011-06-14 15:31:56 <topi`> except for your thoughts about hoarding the money
1827 2011-06-14 15:32:11 <roconnor> compount interest is also the only sensable way to loan money, which is why isamlic banks charge administrative fees propotional to the money currently being borrowed :)
1828 2011-06-14 15:32:16 <topi`> Optimo: no, it's just deferring your trade temporarily
1829 2011-06-14 15:32:21 <Anon176> neither controlled inflation or controlled deflation is necessarily bad, the problem is when it gets out of hand.
1830 2011-06-14 15:32:23 <Optimo> true
1831 2011-06-14 15:32:31 <roconnor> or so I'm told
1832 2011-06-14 15:32:39 <topi`> roconnor: compound interest only makes sense in an inflatory environment
1833 2011-06-14 15:32:42 <Optimo> but you don't knwo what out-of-hand is. none of us does
1834 2011-06-14 15:33:08 <Optimo> but we do have a loose idea that people lose dollars and coins at ~1%
1835 2011-06-14 15:33:11 <Anon176> topi, what i'm saying is that bitcoin deflation will be out of hand because the coins are lost and hoarded.
1836 2011-06-14 15:33:12 <Anon176> lost=hoarding.
1837 2011-06-14 15:33:28 <Optimo> what is out of hand?
1838 2011-06-14 15:33:29 <Optimo> what %
1839 2011-06-14 15:33:30 <topi`> Optimo: this is true. and they lose even more if they ever take a loan from a bank.
1840 2011-06-14 15:33:31 <roconnor> topi`: I disagree with that statement; but we can postpone this point.
1841 2011-06-14 15:34:02 <Optimo> if you can gues the % you can just fudge the printing rate
1842 2011-06-14 15:34:11 <Optimo> but people have to agree to that or let satoshi do it
1843 2011-06-14 15:34:15 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1844 2011-06-14 15:34:18 <Anon176> optimo, it is out of hand because the coins will be lost and not replaced.
1845 2011-06-14 15:34:32 <edcba> so ?
1846 2011-06-14 15:34:38 <Anon176> this increases the value in an out of hand manner.
1847 2011-06-14 15:34:43 <Optimo> you say it 'will be', but you're saying it's already out of hand
1848 2011-06-14 15:34:44 <topi`> the point of interest is that it makes lending money a successful business. otherwise, it would be better to keep that money onto oneself, and invest it somewhere where it "creates value"
1849 2011-06-14 15:34:59 <topi`> as long as bitcoins deflate in value, it's just fine not to invest those coins :)
1850 2011-06-14 15:35:03 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
1851 2011-06-14 15:35:12 <roconnor> topi`: that I can agree with
1852 2011-06-14 15:35:17 <Anon176> optimo, a lot of people are already investing in bitcoin.
1853 2011-06-14 15:35:25 <Optimo> you would assert that bitcoin is broken from the reflection of a 'perfect currency' because it doesn't know how many % will be lost
1854 2011-06-14 15:35:28 andzej has joined
1855 2011-06-14 15:35:35 <edcba> lol
1856 2011-06-14 15:35:35 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
1857 2011-06-14 15:35:45 <Anon176> the way things are many people are trying to get rich with bitcoin.
1858 2011-06-14 15:35:49 <Optimo> so?
1859 2011-06-14 15:35:53 <Optimo> it's early
1860 2011-06-14 15:36:04 <topi`> Anon176: it's also very risky
1861 2011-06-14 15:36:04 <Optimo> as someone just pointed out, it's lonly a deferred trade
1862 2011-06-14 15:36:09 <edcba> currency can lose value or gain against others i don't see how it loses it's usefullness as currency
1863 2011-06-14 15:36:12 fmetro has joined
1864 2011-06-14 15:36:25 <Anon176> optimo, people don't need to know how many coins will be lost they only need to know they won't be lost forever and they will go back.
1865 2011-06-14 15:36:26 <edcba> stop thinking about BTC/USD
1866 2011-06-14 15:36:27 <topi`> Anon176: even the miners have spent a lot on electricity, without any guarantees that they get their money back
1867 2011-06-14 15:36:37 kluge has joined
1868 2011-06-14 15:36:43 <edcba> BTC is meant to be traded agains goods/services
1869 2011-06-14 15:37:06 <Anon176> topi, and why do they do that? because they want to get rich.
1870 2011-06-14 15:37:09 <Optimo> Anon176, that still all requires a study in numbers
1871 2011-06-14 15:37:13 <topi`> BTC will also be very useful to exchange one national currency to another
1872 2011-06-14 15:37:17 <Anon176> we don't need a profit making system. we need a money system.
1873 2011-06-14 15:37:24 <Anon176> bitcoin is becoming about profit.
1874 2011-06-14 15:37:34 <Optimo> people are about profit
1875 2011-06-14 15:37:37 <edcba> Anon176: at start speculation is inavoidable
1876 2011-06-14 15:37:39 <topi`> i.e. you buy BTC with USD, and you sell BTC for EUR. hence, you've done a USD->EUR conversion without the stupid pbanks
1877 2011-06-14 15:37:41 <Optimo> it's not the currenny's fault
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1879 2011-06-14 15:37:52 <edcba> when a lot of money will circulate specualtion will be less likely
1880 2011-06-14 15:37:53 <Optimo> it's soooo early
1881 2011-06-14 15:37:54 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
1882 2011-06-14 15:37:58 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
1883 2011-06-14 15:38:03 _ape has joined
1884 2011-06-14 15:38:15 <md2k7> Anon176: no-one would be buying your BTC right now if it wasn't about profit
1885 2011-06-14 15:38:33 <Anon176> optimo, because the scarcity only increases the value can only increase.
1886 2011-06-14 15:38:41 <Anon176> which generates speculation and hoarding and investing.
1887 2011-06-14 15:38:55 <Optimo> it's not scarcity if we don't know what's lost
1888 2011-06-14 15:38:57 <edcba> yes but it should stabilise
1889 2011-06-14 15:38:59 <Optimo> teh market takes care of it
1890 2011-06-14 15:39:09 <topi`> Anon176: scarcity decreases oif a lot of people decide to leave Bitcoin
1891 2011-06-14 15:39:18 <sipa> to be honest, i think the current speculation is much more about people expecting more people to want a share as it grows more popular
1892 2011-06-14 15:39:23 <edcba> hoarding needs to be realized at some point
1893 2011-06-14 15:39:33 <sipa> and not so about about expected currency deflation
1894 2011-06-14 15:39:35 <edcba> you can't "stop eating" forever
1895 2011-06-14 15:39:39 <topi`> sipa: it is also a positive feedback system :)
1896 2011-06-14 15:39:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that's how i see it too
1897 2011-06-14 15:40:03 <Anon176> topi, sipa, the way things are it is working even if unintentianlly like a pyramid scheme, unfortunately
1898 2011-06-14 15:40:13 <Optimo> no
1899 2011-06-14 15:40:26 <Anon176> because the new adopters always gbenefit less and less
1900 2011-06-14 15:40:28 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: no it's not?
1901 2011-06-14 15:40:41 <Anon176> i said unintentional
1902 2011-06-14 15:40:41 <Optimo> Anon176, make a store that accepts bitcoin and you'll be rich
1903 2011-06-14 15:40:44 <sipa> Anon176: you yourself say it is supposed to be a money system, not a profit one
1904 2011-06-14 15:40:45 <Optimo> it's about opportunity
1905 2011-06-14 15:41:00 <Optimo> you can make far more than a miner
1906 2011-06-14 15:41:09 <Anon176> sipa, yes it's supposed to be but it's not what bitcoin is becoming
1907 2011-06-14 15:41:10 <sipa> Anon176: the point is, you should currently consider ever bitcoin gained and not traded (through mining or selling), a high-risk investment, with potentially large gains or massive failures
1908 2011-06-14 15:41:13 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1909 2011-06-14 15:41:13 <Optimo> and even get huge convenience fees this early
1910 2011-06-14 15:41:20 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: main problem right now is that it's volatile to actually be used as currency
1911 2011-06-14 15:41:21 <sipa> *and not traded for fiat currency
1912 2011-06-14 15:41:29 <sipa> *every
1913 2011-06-14 15:41:42 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: there's several people that have some great long-term ideas for bitcoin but it requires things to stabalize first
1914 2011-06-14 15:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> *too volatile
1915 2011-06-14 15:41:56 <Optimo> when it's less trading against teh USD it will stabilize, and by then everyone will use it and not care about rich miners
1916 2011-06-14 15:42:11 <Optimo> jrmithdobbs, indeed...
1917 2011-06-14 15:42:16 <Optimo> so many ideas for later
1918 2011-06-14 15:42:19 <citiz3n> and if "lawmakers" pass statutes against bitcoin :\
1919 2011-06-14 15:42:27 <Anon176> and when it stabalises, the early adopters get richer. to stabalise more and more people have to join. is that not similar to a pyramid?
1920 2011-06-14 15:42:37 <topi`> Anon176: I think the main difference between a true ponzi scheme and bitcoin is that BTC has actually plenty of potential to be *useful* for the humanity
1921 2011-06-14 15:42:45 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: same is true for any new currency/commodity market
1922 2011-06-14 15:42:45 <topi`> ponzi schemes have nothing in them
1923 2011-06-14 15:43:09 <Optimo> Anon176, isn't part of the beauty in this that nobody knows who's rich? how do I prove I'm rich unles I spend coins?
1924 2011-06-14 15:43:10 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: by your definition every form of currency ever created is a ponzi scheme (and they're not)
1925 2011-06-14 15:43:18 <Anon176> topi, the current bank system is a ponzi scheme i think. we are only getting a less a better ponzi/pyramid.
1926 2011-06-14 15:43:19 kish has joined
1927 2011-06-14 15:43:24 <citiz3n> think of bitcoin more like a stock
1928 2011-06-14 15:43:31 <jrmithdobbs> citiz3n: no
1929 2011-06-14 15:43:36 <citiz3n> if you had bought microsoft or coca-cola when they started out
1930 2011-06-14 15:43:40 <Optimo> you're just wrong about currency seeding
1931 2011-06-14 15:43:42 <jrmithdobbs> commodity is the word you're looking at
1932 2011-06-14 15:43:45 <jrmithdobbs> s/at/for/
1933 2011-06-14 15:43:46 <citiz3n> but unlike a stock, it also has usefulness - it's a real currency
1934 2011-06-14 15:43:59 shawn-p has joined
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1936 2011-06-14 15:44:00 <citiz3n> i know, jrmithdobbs, but im trying to draw an analogy
1937 2011-06-14 15:44:08 <topi`> citiz3n: BTC will live in, because not *every* country in the world will make it illegal
1938 2011-06-14 15:44:08 <Anon176> optimo, it could be said to be a genious anonymous pyramid/ponzi
1939 2011-06-14 15:44:09 <jrmithdobbs> well it's a bad one
1940 2011-06-14 15:44:15 <Optimo> but it's not
1941 2011-06-14 15:44:16 <topi`> or at least I don't see that happening
1942 2011-06-14 15:44:36 DukeOfURL has joined
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1944 2011-06-14 15:44:36 <citiz3n> im just trying to show it's not a ponzi scheme
1945 2011-06-14 15:44:41 <Optimo> early adopters have the most opportunity
1946 2011-06-14 15:44:48 <Anon176> optimo, but why is it that the earlier you get in the more you benefit?
1947 2011-06-14 15:44:49 <Optimo> as long as teh arrow of time points that way this will be true
1948 2011-06-14 15:44:59 <Optimo> it's entropic
1949 2011-06-14 15:45:00 <Optimo> lol
1950 2011-06-14 15:45:02 <sipa> Anon176: a ponzi scheme implies that people are promised more rewards than the system can provide without stopping to grow
1951 2011-06-14 15:45:04 <citiz3n> the early bird gets the worm
1952 2011-06-14 15:45:10 <Anon176> it gets to a point when joining is not beneficial.
1953 2011-06-14 15:45:12 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: because that's how all financial systems work
1954 2011-06-14 15:45:13 <citiz3n> just as if you had invested in a stock when it started out
1955 2011-06-14 15:45:15 <manveru> Anon176: see the gold rush :)
1956 2011-06-14 15:45:18 <citiz3n> apple, microsoft, etc
1957 2011-06-14 15:45:31 <Optimo> 'joining' the gold rush is optional. you can simply use the currency like we use dollars
1958 2011-06-14 15:45:32 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: early adopters ALWAYS take the most risk and therefore always have the chance of reaping the most rewards
1959 2011-06-14 15:45:33 <Anon176> sipa, yes, this is not a proper ponzi, but it's similar.
1960 2011-06-14 15:45:35 <jrmithdobbs> it's very simple
1961 2011-06-14 15:45:36 <manveru> Anon176: some found a bit of gold early on... lots died and found nothing
1962 2011-06-14 15:45:53 <Optimo> it's not pnzi at all, why even bring that word into this
1963 2011-06-14 15:46:02 <citiz3n> everyone likes using the word ponzi
1964 2011-06-14 15:46:02 tandy80_ has joined
1965 2011-06-14 15:46:05 <sipa> Anon176: it's just a high-risk investment, and sure early adopters who bought cheap *and did not sell*, see a growing reward
1966 2011-06-14 15:46:10 <sipa> Anon176: i have no problem with that
1967 2011-06-14 15:46:12 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1968 2011-06-14 15:46:15 <citiz3n> it's short for "well i don't understand it so i don't trust it"
1969 2011-06-14 15:46:16 <Anon176> jrmithdobbs, here is not a case of risk so much. no one knew about bitcoin.
1970 2011-06-14 15:46:25 <emock> Groupon IPO == Ponzi, BTC != Ponzi
1971 2011-06-14 15:46:28 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: like I said, calling bitcoin a ponzi scheme implies that every currency and commodities market in existance is a ponzi scheme
1972 2011-06-14 15:46:32 <jrmithdobbs> and that is a false statement
1973 2011-06-14 15:46:53 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: it is a CLASSIC case of risk for early adopters?!
1974 2011-06-14 15:46:54 <Optimo> Anon176, when did you find out about bitcoin?
1975 2011-06-14 15:47:00 <Optimo> just curious
1976 2011-06-14 15:47:04 <citiz3n> The US dollar is like a backwards ponzi if that's how you are looking at things
1977 2011-06-14 15:47:05 <citiz3n> lol
1978 2011-06-14 15:47:05 <genewitch> why is this in here
1979 2011-06-14 15:47:05 <Anon176> jrmithdobbs, probably every currency is a ponzi. and we need one that isn't.
1980 2011-06-14 15:47:14 <Optimo> stop saying ponzi
1981 2011-06-14 15:47:18 <citiz3n> the earlier you get in, the more you lose ;)
1982 2011-06-14 15:47:21 <genewitch> Anon176: you can't mine american dollars...
1983 2011-06-14 15:47:27 <johnlockwood_> now Social Security _is_ a ponzi scheme
1984 2011-06-14 15:47:29 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: ok, you can officially be disregarded at this point.
1985 2011-06-14 15:47:31 <genewitch> Anon176: now un anon, or get lost.
1986 2011-06-14 15:47:37 <genewitch> also, the forums are down
1987 2011-06-14 15:47:38 <Anon176> optimo, about 2 weeks ago, but only read more in the last 5 days.
1988 2011-06-14 15:47:38 <citiz3n> jrmithdobbs is right about social security
1989 2011-06-14 15:47:40 Backburn has joined
1990 2011-06-14 15:47:44 <Optimo> 2 weeks ago...
1991 2011-06-14 15:47:44 pRjck3vC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1992 2011-06-14 15:47:47 <emock> please go read the wikipedia page on Ponzi Schemes so you understand what it actually is
1993 2011-06-14 15:47:53 <jrmithdobbs> citiz3n: i didn't say that, but yes, ss is a ponzi
1994 2011-06-14 15:48:10 <citiz3n> woops
1995 2011-06-14 15:48:18 <citiz3n> johnlockwood_ is right ;)
1996 2011-06-14 15:48:19 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: old require new to pay in when the old group gets too big the system collapses
1997 2011-06-14 15:48:30 pRjck3vC has joined
1998 2011-06-14 15:48:46 <johnlockwood_> so Anon176 go write to your congressman if you want complain about a real one - assuming you are a us citizen
1999 2011-06-14 15:48:47 <Optimo> Anon176, don;t think that because the market price is $20 that you've missed out on early adoption yourself. if you wanted to invest in bitcoin as a commoidty it's probably a worthwhile thing to do for diversifying your wealth.
2000 2011-06-14 15:49:02 <Anon176> if people are getting disproportianately rich early, it is SIMILAR
2001 2011-06-14 15:49:03 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: that has nothing in common with bitcoin, i'm kind of sick of people with nvidia cards and intel graphics crying about bitcoins and claiming it's a conspiracy. If you don't like it don't play.
2002 2011-06-14 15:49:07 <genewitch> Don't be jealous though
2003 2011-06-14 15:49:11 <Optimo> buy 1 coin today and it will be worth 10,000 in 10 yuears
2004 2011-06-14 15:49:18 <citiz3n> if you have a little money to invest
2005 2011-06-14 15:49:19 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: um, pretty sure you're directing both those comments at the wrong person
2006 2011-06-14 15:49:23 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: i know i highligted you but i wasn't mad at you ;-)
2007 2011-06-14 15:49:25 <citiz3n> bitcoin may be high risk but also high reward
2008 2011-06-14 15:49:36 <citiz3n> buy some coins, hold them a year, and see where you are
2009 2011-06-14 15:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: because i never implied any of the above?!
2010 2011-06-14 15:49:38 <citiz3n> you may be very happy
2011 2011-06-14 15:49:40 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: i was agreeing with you and trying not to spam which is failing now
2012 2011-06-14 15:49:46 * nathan7 nods at citiz3n
2013 2011-06-14 15:49:58 <genewitch> anyhow, where's theyos
2014 2011-06-14 15:50:07 <genewitch> sleeping?
2015 2011-06-14 15:50:09 <citiz3n> investments aren't supposed to make you money overnight
2016 2011-06-14 15:50:10 <genewitch> at a time like this?
2017 2011-06-14 15:50:16 <johnlockwood_> I'm enjoying this stability around 20
2018 2011-06-14 15:50:19 <citiz3n> there are short-term and long-term investments
2019 2011-06-14 15:50:22 <nathan7> I'm not
2020 2011-06-14 15:50:22 <Optimo> it's extremely early days
2021 2011-06-14 15:50:22 <citiz3n> 1 year would be short-term
2022 2011-06-14 15:50:45 <genewitch> also i think people are really mad that they blew off bitcoin as BS in january 2011
2023 2011-06-14 15:50:46 <nathan7> I regret not selling off at $30
2024 2011-06-14 15:50:53 <jrmithdobbs> jesus christ, what is this, mlm week. ANOTHER ONE just sat down next to me at the coffee shop
2025 2011-06-14 15:50:54 <johnlockwood_> long-term, for tax purposes is 1 year and a day
2026 2011-06-14 15:50:55 <nathan7> Because I could use the money
2027 2011-06-14 15:50:56 <genewitch> 90000% missed investment seems like a kick in the ass
2028 2011-06-14 15:50:59 <citiz3n> i think we all do nathan hehe
2029 2011-06-14 15:51:00 <jrmithdobbs> that's 5 in <36 hours now
2030 2011-06-14 15:51:01 <jrmithdobbs> jesus
2031 2011-06-14 15:51:11 <nathan7> citiz3n: mh-hm
2032 2011-06-14 15:51:19 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: mlm for what?
2033 2011-06-14 15:51:20 <citiz3n> but i have some money invested in this that iw ill not sell off
2034 2011-06-14 15:51:23 <citiz3n> until the term is over
2035 2011-06-14 15:51:28 <citiz3n> hence it's an investment
2036 2011-06-14 15:51:39 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: have you ever heard of a company called Xowii? they make energy drinks and are MLM
2037 2011-06-14 15:51:41 <johnlockwood_> we should all get out of bitcoin and join amway
2038 2011-06-14 15:51:44 <johnlockwood_> lol
2039 2011-06-14 15:51:44 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: which one? heard 3 realty mlm pitches, one amway, one i couldn't quite make out the "product" etc
2040 2011-06-14 15:51:46 <Anon176> a lot of people are not providing convincing arguments and simply just say 'its not a ponzi'. even if it's not just calling someone stupid is not the proof.
2041 2011-06-14 15:51:47 <emock> high unemployment == lots of opportunity for mlm's
2042 2011-06-14 15:51:51 <citiz3n> don't bet the rent money
2043 2011-06-14 15:51:55 <nathan7> Yeah, but I kind of have a need for money
2044 2011-06-14 15:51:59 <citiz3n> bitcoin is not fast easy free cash
2045 2011-06-14 15:52:12 <genewitch> nathan7: you could work
2046 2011-06-14 15:52:19 <citiz3n> wow
2047 2011-06-14 15:52:21 flexis has joined
2048 2011-06-14 15:52:25 <nathan7> genewitch: I have school and little time.
2049 2011-06-14 15:52:31 <genewitch> nathan7: you could sell drugs
2050 2011-06-14 15:52:36 <nathan7> And code to write.
2051 2011-06-14 15:52:40 <johnlockwood_> Anon176: "it looks like" != "it is"
2052 2011-06-14 15:52:44 <nathan7> genewitch: I could even synthesise them, if I wanted
2053 2011-06-14 15:52:45 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: oh this one is some insurance sales mlm
2054 2011-06-14 15:53:03 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: health insurance?
2055 2011-06-14 15:53:17 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: dunno, trying to tune it out tbqh
2056 2011-06-14 15:53:17 <nathan7> It's not like every corner has a drug dealer here in Holland *cough*
2057 2011-06-14 15:53:26 <nathan7> okay, every *dark* corner
2058 2011-06-14 15:53:29 <johnlockwood_> Anon176: why don't you explain how it is a ponzi scheme
2059 2011-06-14 15:53:30 <emock> if btc is a ponzi scheme then so is every startup company that got big⦠and if that were the case maybe we should call is a Page-Brin scheme
2060 2011-06-14 15:53:35 NOTAL has joined
2061 2011-06-14 15:53:36 <genewitch> i have to walk the kiddo to school in a bit but i wish an op would make this back into a -dev channel rather than bitcoin-notmlm
2062 2011-06-14 15:53:36 <Optimo> Anon176, there's nothing to prove. you are speculating on the future in a very early commodity life
2063 2011-06-14 15:53:53 * nathan7 eyes genewitch
2064 2011-06-14 15:53:54 justice4all has joined
2065 2011-06-14 15:53:55 <Optimo> speculating that bitcoin must be flawed because it has some inflation
2066 2011-06-14 15:54:09 <Anon176> johnlockwood_, i understand that. but bitcoin is behaving similar to a ponzi or pyramid. because the early people make a lot and the next people make each one less and less.
2067 2011-06-14 15:54:16 <jrmithdobbs> if you really think it's such a problem put your money where your mouth is
2068 2011-06-14 15:54:30 <nathan7> It's better than the reverse.
2069 2011-06-14 15:54:31 <jrmithdobbs> buy in and get rich once it deflates to $1m-usd / btc
2070 2011-06-14 15:54:33 <Optimo> there is no such thing as a perfect commodity (mabye quantum-entangled currency pairs)
2071 2011-06-14 15:54:35 <genewitch> nathan7: the forums are down and i want to know if it's a backbone router, ddos, upgrades, hardware failure, etc. the SNR in here is atrocious right now
2072 2011-06-14 15:54:48 <genewitch> Anon176: Because early adopters took the most risk
2073 2011-06-14 15:54:49 <nathan7> I wonder if there are bitcoin hookers yet.
2074 2011-06-14 15:54:53 <genewitch> Anon176: how is that not making sense?
2075 2011-06-14 15:54:54 <devrandom> Anon176: same thing with stocks
2076 2011-06-14 15:54:59 <Optimo> Anon176 you don't have to mine for coins - leave that to the miners or do it yourself
2077 2011-06-14 15:55:03 <Optimo> it's an investment
2078 2011-06-14 15:55:08 <nathan7> Anon176: Then Apple stocks are a ponzi scheme.
2079 2011-06-14 15:55:14 <Anon176> genbewicth, thats not true, they 'risked' some computer power.
2080 2011-06-14 15:55:21 <nathan7> Those who bought them early are rich now.
2081 2011-06-14 15:55:28 <nathan7> Must be a Ponzi scheme, no?
2082 2011-06-14 15:55:32 <genewitch> Anon176: the people who made bitcoin popular SHOULD get rewarded. it's built into the system. if you want to get rich tooo, start now. don't wait until 1BTC is so much money that transactions are done in 0.001BTC increments.
2083 2011-06-14 15:56:05 <genewitch> Anon176: also, if you mine BTC, even a year ago to today, you make the same USD amount per hour regardless. your "holdings" increase in value but the current value per hour is a constant.
2084 2011-06-14 15:56:15 <Anon176> nathan7 apple stocks are actually bound to something
2085 2011-06-14 15:56:26 <kluge> is mtgox accessible through i2p?
2086 2011-06-14 15:56:26 El-Loco has joined
2087 2011-06-14 15:56:32 <genewitch> Anon176: yeah, waht people perceive the value of apple, inc to be.
2088 2011-06-14 15:56:39 <nathan7> Exactly, genewitch.
2089 2011-06-14 15:56:43 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: btc are bound to something in the exact same way
2090 2011-06-14 15:56:53 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: what people perceive the value of btc to be.
2091 2011-06-14 15:56:58 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: the price of eletricity.
2092 2011-06-14 15:57:04 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: absolutely not.
2093 2011-06-14 15:57:08 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: :-D
2094 2011-06-14 15:57:11 <Anon176> genewitch apples produces producs not hashes
2095 2011-06-14 15:57:17 <genewitch> Anon176: that's arguable.
2096 2011-06-14 15:57:21 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: doesn't matter.
2097 2011-06-14 15:57:24 <genewitch> they tart up products.
2098 2011-06-14 15:57:27 <jrmithdobbs> also
2099 2011-06-14 15:57:32 <jrmithdobbs> take this out of -dev please
2100 2011-06-14 15:57:45 <jrmithdobbs> move on over to #bitcoin
2101 2011-06-14 15:57:58 <jrmithdobbs> this is in no way -dev related.
2102 2011-06-14 15:57:58 Zefir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2103 2011-06-14 15:58:07 <Anon176> jrmithdobbs i came here to talk about defaltion and made a technical suggestion
2104 2011-06-14 15:58:38 <jrmithdobbs> yes, suggestion noted, if you'd like to continue to whine about how commodities/forex markets work take it to #bitcoin
2105 2011-06-14 15:58:51 <genewitch> or #ubuntu
2106 2011-06-14 15:58:53 <nathan7> But I don't feel important there, jrmithdobbs
2107 2011-06-14 15:59:09 <nathan7> Oh hey, mtgox is down apparently
2108 2011-06-14 15:59:18 <genewitch> nathan7: their api is working
2109 2011-06-14 15:59:26 <genewitch> ;;bc,avgprc
2110 2011-06-14 15:59:32 <gribble> {"USD": {"7d": "21.1198", "30d": "15.3961", "24h": "19.1467"}, "RUB": {"30d": "155.0000"}, "GAU": {"7d": "0.4000", "30d": "0.1636"}, "SLL": {"7d": "6951.9033", "30d": "3892.1359", "24h": "6132.1633"}, "GBP": {"7d": "14.7901", "30d": "10.6175", "24h": "13.7241"}, "PLN": {"7d": "71.2100", "30d": "54.6815", "24h": "57.3537"}, "CLP": {"7d": "14581.5102", "30d": "14581.5102", "24h": (1 more message)
2111 2011-06-14 15:59:33 p0s has joined
2112 2011-06-14 16:00:22 <nathan7> That uses bitcoincharts
2113 2011-06-14 16:00:23 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r99 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/StoredBlock.java: Bit more debugging data in StoredBlock.toString()
2114 2011-06-14 16:00:33 <nathan7> bitcoincharts caches
2115 2011-06-14 16:00:35 <genewitch> nathan7: well the mtgox counter on my pool is working :-/
2116 2011-06-14 16:00:41 eamon has quit ()
2117 2011-06-14 16:00:50 <Anon176> jrmithdobbs i say something you don't like you call it whining. i suppose you have a lot to lose.
2118 2011-06-14 16:01:12 takezo420 has quit (Quit: takezo420)
2119 2011-06-14 16:01:14 <genewitch> Anon176: u jelly?
2120 2011-06-14 16:01:17 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: i have nothing to lose.
2121 2011-06-14 16:01:39 <jrmithdobbs> Anon176: 200% roi on the little bit of money i put in btc and it's all already back in the bank. so w/e
2122 2011-06-14 16:01:50 <sipa> Anon176: you've no idea how many people there have been suggesting a inflationary bitcoin (which is basically what you suggest)
2123 2011-06-14 16:02:06 <CIA-90> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r100 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/BlockChain.java: Ignore duplicate adds of the chain head.
2124 2011-06-14 16:02:13 <sipa> it's interesting, but not what we're going to do
2125 2011-06-14 16:02:16 drdig has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2126 2011-06-14 16:02:25 <nathan7> My parents are gonna kill me if I don't come for dinner now, bbl
2127 2011-06-14 16:02:32 <Anon176> sipa, i am not suggesting creating new coins, i am suggesting recycling. there would be a limited amount of coins.
2128 2011-06-14 16:02:37 netcrack has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2129 2011-06-14 16:02:46 <genewitch> Anon176: there's only 21 million. Forever.
2130 2011-06-14 16:02:55 <sipa> Anon176: that's exactly equivalent
2131 2011-06-14 16:02:57 <genewitch> Anon176: they can be split to 0.00000001
2132 2011-06-14 16:03:04 <sipa> if i take 1% every day from you and give it to miners
2133 2011-06-14 16:03:12 <sipa> or allow miners to create 1% new currency every day
2134 2011-06-14 16:03:20 <sipa> the wealth distribution is the same
2135 2011-06-14 16:03:22 <genewitch> sipa: ooh, good point :-)
2136 2011-06-14 16:03:30 <Anon176> sipa, it's not because when new money is created as usual the old money is not necessarily lost.
2137 2011-06-14 16:03:46 <sipa> Anon176: i don't see the difference
2138 2011-06-14 16:03:52 <Anon176> with the regular system, there is MORE money.
2139 2011-06-14 16:04:02 <genewitch> Anon176: economy is driven by work or product. (GDP?)
2140 2011-06-14 16:04:04 <sipa> and as i told you, that is irrelevant
2141 2011-06-14 16:04:14 <sipa> the total amount in circulation does not matter at all
2142 2011-06-14 16:04:19 <genewitch> Anon176: the GDP of bitcoin is hash computation.
2143 2011-06-14 16:04:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: think I've figured out why my b58 encodes don't match yours
2144 2011-06-14 16:04:26 <sipa> it is the distribution of that total amount
2145 2011-06-14 16:04:34 anddam has left ()
2146 2011-06-14 16:04:44 <genewitch> i'll come back when this is dev chat again to get some work done.
2147 2011-06-14 16:04:58 <sipa> Anon176: imagine there are 100 BTC in circulation, and you have one of them
2148 2011-06-14 16:04:59 unclemantis has joined
2149 2011-06-14 16:05:24 <sipa> after a day, you have 0.99 BTC and a miner got 1 BTC, and the total is still 100 BTC
2150 2011-06-14 16:05:27 <sipa> right?
2151 2011-06-14 16:05:28 <sipa> in your system?
2152 2011-06-14 16:05:39 <Anon176> so?
2153 2011-06-14 16:05:49 <sipa> i'm just asking for confirmation - this is what you mean?
2154 2011-06-14 16:06:12 <Anon176> no, not really.
2155 2011-06-14 16:06:29 <sipa> ok, correct me
2156 2011-06-14 16:06:42 <Anon176> let me think.
2157 2011-06-14 16:06:56 <sipa> replace "a miner" by "that day's miners"
2158 2011-06-14 16:07:26 <Anon176> today i have 1 coin the pool has 99, tomorrow 1 have 0.99 the pool has 99.11.
2159 2011-06-14 16:07:36 <Anon176> 99.01
2160 2011-06-14 16:08:00 <sipa> what do you mean with pool?
2161 2011-06-14 16:08:02 <Anon176> whaetever i lose goes back to the total.
2162 2011-06-14 16:08:12 <sipa> there is no way to track lost coins
2163 2011-06-14 16:08:56 <Anon176> sipa, we wouldn't track lost coins. EVERY coin in the system would go through this process.
2164 2011-06-14 16:09:25 <sipa> ok, first explain me what the pool is
2165 2011-06-14 16:09:57 <Anon176> the poool is 21 000 000 for example.
2166 2011-06-14 16:09:57 <sipa> coins to be issued through mining, and not (yet) in circulation?
2167 2011-06-14 16:10:01 <sipa> ok, fine
2168 2011-06-14 16:10:10 <Anon176> we mine or farm some of that, but it goes =back constantly.
2169 2011-06-14 16:10:20 johnnympereira5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2170 2011-06-14 16:10:51 <sipa> assume you have 10 BTC, and have 30 BTC, and the pool is 0 (a simplification, i know it won't ever reach 0)
2171 2011-06-14 16:10:54 <Anon176> sipa, the total amount of coins whatever it is would be the pool. including those not in circulation.
2172 2011-06-14 16:10:55 <sipa> ok?
2173 2011-06-14 16:11:06 <sipa> ok
2174 2011-06-14 16:11:26 Swu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2175 2011-06-14 16:11:45 <sipa> you have 90 BTC, i have 10 BTC, and there are no coins except for those that are not in circulation (so the pool is 100 BTC)
2176 2011-06-14 16:11:48 <sipa> ok?
2177 2011-06-14 16:11:59 <jrmithdobbs> ignoring the fact that the only way to tell if coins are "lost" can't be distinguished from "savings accounts"
2178 2011-06-14 16:12:03 <Anon176> assume there is 3 people only. i have 1 bitcoin today you have 1 bitcoin. 98 are left to be mined.
2179 2011-06-14 16:12:05 <jrmithdobbs> what does this even solve?
2180 2011-06-14 16:12:16 <sipa> Anon176: please, bear with me for a moment
2181 2011-06-14 16:12:18 <Anon176> i mean 2 people
2182 2011-06-14 16:12:18 pusle has joined
2183 2011-06-14 16:12:22 <Anon176> ok sorry
2184 2011-06-14 16:12:38 <sipa> assume the "recovery rate" is 1% per day
2185 2011-06-14 16:12:57 <Anon176> ok
2186 2011-06-14 16:13:06 <grand_grunt> If bitcoins are lost, can they be retrivied by mining, or are they lost forever?
2187 2011-06-14 16:13:13 <jrmithdobbs> grand_grunt: forever
2188 2011-06-14 16:13:18 luke-jr_ has joined
2189 2011-06-14 16:13:34 <sipa> Anon176: that means after a day, you have 89.1 BTC, i have 9.9 BTC, and there is 1 BTC to be mined (or already in the hands of a miner, doesn't matter)
2190 2011-06-14 16:13:37 <sipa> right?
2191 2011-06-14 16:13:38 <Anon176> actually, sipa, the way you are doing is not what i mean. it doesnt included unminned coins.,
2192 2011-06-14 16:13:49 <sipa> Anon176: yes, i'm simplifying
2193 2011-06-14 16:13:51 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2194 2011-06-14 16:13:51 <sipa> i know that
2195 2011-06-14 16:14:18 <Anon176> ok, i follow you.
2196 2011-06-14 16:14:42 <sipa> now, i say this is equivalent with just increasing the pool with 1.010101... BTC
2197 2011-06-14 16:15:05 <sipa> the situation with me having 10 BTC, you 90 BTC, and 1.010101 in the pool
2198 2011-06-14 16:15:12 <sipa> is equivalent to yours
2199 2011-06-14 16:15:14 <grand_grunt> jrmithdobbs: So the number of BTC will slowly decrease through the time, after a peak
2200 2011-06-14 16:15:16 <sipa> at the end of the day
2201 2011-06-14 16:15:20 <Anon176> but if you do that then you are adding more coins and i don't mean that.
2202 2011-06-14 16:15:28 <sipa> Anon176: i know you don't
2203 2011-06-14 16:15:30 <grand_grunt> When there will be more lost bitcoins that mined bitcoins
2204 2011-06-14 16:15:32 <grand_grunt> than*
2205 2011-06-14 16:15:40 <sipa> Anon176: but it's a much easier solution with exactly the same result
2206 2011-06-14 16:15:45 <sipa> for the economy
2207 2011-06-14 16:16:02 <Optimo> he's suggesting coins return to ether to be remined...
2208 2011-06-14 16:16:05 <Anon176> ummm
2209 2011-06-14 16:16:27 <Anon176> there should be always coins to be mined.
2210 2011-06-14 16:16:29 <Optimo> obviously this is not for bitcoin but a newer idea
2211 2011-06-14 16:16:56 <sipa> Anon176: there will be
2212 2011-06-14 16:16:57 <Anon176> say i have 10 you have 90 and there are 100 left to be mined.
2213 2011-06-14 16:17:03 <sipa> ok
2214 2011-06-14 16:17:05 <grand_grunt> Yes, it could be nice to allways have coins to be mined
2215 2011-06-14 16:17:15 <sipa> grand_grunt: there will be, through fees
2216 2011-06-14 16:17:16 davout has quit (Quit: i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net))
2217 2011-06-14 16:17:52 BlueMatt has joined
2218 2011-06-14 16:18:13 <grand_grunt> sipa: No, there is a maximum that will be reached (210000 btc, right?)
2219 2011-06-14 16:18:23 <grand_grunt> "allmost reached" to be exact
2220 2011-06-14 16:18:31 <sipa> it will be reached, 21M btc
2221 2011-06-14 16:18:37 <Optimo> not for a longgg time
2222 2011-06-14 16:18:40 <sipa> (minus a bit, but then generation will stop)
2223 2011-06-14 16:18:47 <sipa> grand_grunt: but that does not mean mining will stop
2224 2011-06-14 16:18:53 <Anon176> tomorrow i have 9.99 and you have 89.99, and the mining pool has a bit more than 100.
2225 2011-06-14 16:18:57 <sipa> miners will still get the rewards they get from transaction fees
2226 2011-06-14 16:19:00 <forrestv> if coins were mined at a constant rate (as they are now) forever, the inflation rate would decrease to 0 over time (rate proportional to 1/time)
2227 2011-06-14 16:19:37 <Optimo> so now you're actually slightly giving miners more incentive to mine, because now they're getting money back from all they've helped circulate
2228 2011-06-14 16:19:58 <sipa> Anon176: but do you agree that it's not the absolute amount you have that matters, only the fraction of the total amount in circulation you have?
2229 2011-06-14 16:20:05 <sipa> for the economy
2230 2011-06-14 16:20:12 Zefir has joined
2231 2011-06-14 16:20:49 <Anon176> sipa, i agree with that but coins that are lost or kept indefinitely are not 'in circulation'.
2232 2011-06-14 16:21:05 <sipa> ok, wrong wording
2233 2011-06-14 16:21:16 <grand_grunt> Could someone "reguess" them and claim them?
2234 2011-06-14 16:21:23 <sipa> grand_grunt: no
2235 2011-06-14 16:21:35 <sipa> Anon176: but do you agree that it's not the absolute amount you have that matters, only the fraction of the total amount available for spending you have?
2236 2011-06-14 16:21:37 <grand_grunt> bitcoins are rough.
2237 2011-06-14 16:21:45 <Optimo> you either would need to serialize every single unit...
2238 2011-06-14 16:22:13 <Anon176> sipa, but you don't know the total amount available for spending, because lost coins are not.
2239 2011-06-14 16:22:14 Lenovo01 has joined
2240 2011-06-14 16:22:23 <RBecker> Are these any good for mining? ATI 4770 and a 4650
2241 2011-06-14 16:22:25 <sipa> Anon176: and neither do you, in your system
2242 2011-06-14 16:22:42 <Optimo> if we have a group of 100 regaulr users with coinc representing more than the coins of one miner, that group is hurt by teh evaporating units.. then they just go back to miners
2243 2011-06-14 16:22:46 <d1234> ;;bc,stats
2244 2011-06-14 16:22:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130780 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 259 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 2 hours, 37 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 848711.60463979
2245 2011-06-14 16:23:36 <Anon176> sipa, we will know the maximum amount of lost coins. because the decomposing rate is defined.
2246 2011-06-14 16:23:44 <Anon176> we cannot know that with the present system.
2247 2011-06-14 16:24:11 <sipa> Anon176: if you don't see that letting miners take a bit of all bitcoin in circulation (including lost ones) is identical to letting miners inflate the money supply with an identical fraction, we're done talking, i'm afraid :)
2248 2011-06-14 16:24:59 d1234 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2249 2011-06-14 16:25:00 <Anon176> sipa, wait a minute please. if you add more money into the system that is not the same as recycling the old money.
2250 2011-06-14 16:25:05 <grand_grunt> sipa: You are good at economy, right?
2251 2011-06-14 16:25:14 <gmaxwell> Anon176: yes, it is the same.
2252 2011-06-14 16:25:18 <sipa> Anon176: then we're done talking
2253 2011-06-14 16:25:20 <Optimo> it's the same
2254 2011-06-14 16:25:20 <grand_grunt> Anon176: What matters is "what ratio of the rare ressource do you have"
2255 2011-06-14 16:25:21 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2256 2011-06-14 16:25:24 <sipa> grand_grunt: no, i'm not
2257 2011-06-14 16:25:33 tandy80_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2258 2011-06-14 16:25:42 falafell has joined
2259 2011-06-14 16:25:54 <grand_grunt> The rare ressource can be limited number of bitcoins, or gold, or silver, or greated but finaly limited number of bitcoins.
2260 2011-06-14 16:26:03 <grand_grunt> greater*
2261 2011-06-14 16:26:22 <Anon176> sipa, do you think there are the same amount of dollar notes as there were at the beginning of the dollar currency?
2262 2011-06-14 16:26:33 <sipa> no
2263 2011-06-14 16:26:38 <Anon176> they are always increasing.
2264 2011-06-14 16:26:42 <sipa> of course they are
2265 2011-06-14 16:27:09 <Anon176> so how can it be the same then?
2266 2011-06-14 16:27:16 <gmaxwell> 0_o
2267 2011-06-14 16:27:23 <sipa> i don't see your point
2268 2011-06-14 16:27:51 <Optimo> don't compare a commodity to a fiat currency
2269 2011-06-14 16:28:04 <sipa> for this purpose, you can
2270 2011-06-14 16:28:12 <gmaxwell> Anon176: if I have 1% of the bitcoin then you take away some and give it to someone so I only have .9%, thats identical to simply giving more out of thin air to someone else so that I only have .9%. In both cases I end up with .9%.
2271 2011-06-14 16:28:31 <Optimo> Anon176 is asserting that they're reprinting money when the for sure know how many are lost - this just doesn't happen
2272 2011-06-14 16:29:19 <Anon176> gmaxwell, its different because i'm not giving it to somneone. i am returning it to be mined.
2273 2011-06-14 16:29:26 <Optimo> unless he's actually saying to increase the total units past 21,00000....
2274 2011-06-14 16:29:40 <Optimo> that's the problem with dollars
2275 2011-06-14 16:29:46 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2276 2011-06-14 16:29:57 <sipa> Anon176: if i multiply everyone's cash and bank accounts in existance with 10
2277 2011-06-14 16:30:01 <gmaxwell> Anon176: in both cases you end up with .9% of the total bitcoin. So you have .9% of the total buying power.
2278 2011-06-14 16:30:03 <Anon176> optimo, i am not doing that they dont know how much is lost know.
2279 2011-06-14 16:30:05 <sipa> do i change *anything*?
2280 2011-06-14 16:30:38 d17v1Nmz has joined
2281 2011-06-14 16:30:42 <Anon176> optimo, i am not saying thee know for sure or even that it is the reason why they print more, no.
2282 2011-06-14 16:30:47 <Optimo> they don't print new dollars to replace lost dollars on anything more than a guess
2283 2011-06-14 16:30:58 <Optimo> they do't know wht's lost for sure
2284 2011-06-14 16:31:03 <Optimo> ok
2285 2011-06-14 16:31:18 <Optimo> so all you could do is guess a % in the same manner
2286 2011-06-14 16:31:22 <sipa> Anon176: do you agree that multiplying all money stored anywhere by a fixed number doesn't change anything?
2287 2011-06-14 16:31:24 Broskevic has joined
2288 2011-06-14 16:31:27 <Optimo> it's not a control if you guess
2289 2011-06-14 16:31:33 gsathya has left ()
2290 2011-06-14 16:31:43 sabalaba has joined
2291 2011-06-14 16:31:49 <Optimo> not a 'more perfect' control I should say
2292 2011-06-14 16:31:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: ooo, 0.3.23 is out, are you guys pulling for 0.4.0 now?
2293 2011-06-14 16:32:03 <Anon176> sipa, yes i agree, why?
2294 2011-06-14 16:32:27 <Optimo> you're multplying by a fraction
2295 2011-06-14 16:32:27 <gmaxwell> Anon176: so you agree that what matters is the relative amount of money you have?
2296 2011-06-14 16:32:34 <sipa> Anon176: you're multiplying all money stored with 0.99, and giving 0.01 times the sum thereof to the pool, right?
2297 2011-06-14 16:32:56 pRjck3vC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2298 2011-06-14 16:32:58 <Anon176> but sipa, i mean decreasing quantity not increasing.
2299 2011-06-14 16:33:07 <sipa> that doesn't matter
2300 2011-06-14 16:33:13 sabalaba has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2301 2011-06-14 16:34:24 <Anon176> decreasing till it's zero is not the same as increasing to infinity.
2302 2011-06-14 16:34:35 <sipa> oh it is
2303 2011-06-14 16:34:44 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
2304 2011-06-14 16:35:00 <BlueMatt> devrandom: hi, hows it going?
2305 2011-06-14 16:35:18 <sipa> Anon176: what's the difference?
2306 2011-06-14 16:35:18 <devrandom> good, good
2307 2011-06-14 16:35:32 <sipa> Anon176: in either case you have a vanishing fraction of the total
2308 2011-06-14 16:35:37 <Anon176> i would decrease it from somewhere and increase it somewhere else, not increase from nowhere like the government, thats the difference.
2309 2011-06-14 16:36:13 <devrandom> BlueMatt: would be up to doing a dress rehearsal for the build process at some point
2310 2011-06-14 16:36:21 eternal1 has joined
2311 2011-06-14 16:36:25 <devrandom> BlueMatt: when are you back from your vacation?
2312 2011-06-14 16:36:47 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2313 2011-06-14 16:37:25 <BlueMatt> devrandom: absolutely, sometime early next wee I believe
2314 2011-06-14 16:37:36 glassresistor has joined
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2316 2011-06-14 16:37:36 glassresistor has joined
2317 2011-06-14 16:37:40 <jgarzik> 000001111111111
2318 2011-06-14 16:38:07 <BlueMatt> When I get back Im going to try to do the install script, rebase wallet crypto onto wallet class and hopefully submit gitian updates as an install options for windows users for 0.4.0
2319 2011-06-14 16:38:08 <sipa> a nice 1023 to you as well, jgarzik
2320 2011-06-14 16:39:00 <Optimo> wallet crypto will be a noob-boon
2321 2011-06-14 16:39:17 <sipa> wallet crypto will cause many lost wallets :)
2322 2011-06-14 16:39:25 <sipa> "how do you mean, i can't reset my password?"
2323 2011-06-14 16:39:32 <Optimo> for sure...
2324 2011-06-14 16:39:50 <BlueMatt> yea, ui needs better thought-through before merge I think
2325 2011-06-14 16:39:52 <Optimo> maybe a checkbox on some initial 'setup' welcome screen on first run
2326 2011-06-14 16:39:58 <jgarzik> that was the baby
2327 2011-06-14 16:40:02 <jgarzik> banging on the keyboard
2328 2011-06-14 16:40:09 <Optimo> binary babe
2329 2011-06-14 16:40:13 <BlueMatt> maybe make the turn off encryption option more easily accessible
2330 2011-06-14 16:40:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: teaching the baby early are we?
2331 2011-06-14 16:40:28 <Optimo> so you're going for it on by default?
2332 2011-06-14 16:40:34 TD has joined
2333 2011-06-14 16:40:44 <TD> jgarzik: hey jeff, how do I sign up for the mailing list??
2334 2011-06-14 16:40:46 <BlueMatt> right now, but I think it might be a good idea to make it off by default
2335 2011-06-14 16:40:50 <jgarzik> sipa: btw, on the builds... user feedback says: 1) linux build needs a directory (not '.'), and 2) windows version needs .zip as well as .exe
2336 2011-06-14 16:40:59 * TD finds the SF user interface very confusing
2337 2011-06-14 16:41:01 <BlueMatt> TD: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
2338 2011-06-14 16:41:07 <onovy> jgarzik: hi, i have really stable long running node, with 100/100 connectivity and static ip. Is it possible to add it to net.cpp:1171 as pnSeed[]?
2339 2011-06-14 16:41:21 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, i heard that too
2340 2011-06-14 16:41:22 <jgarzik> TD: what BlueMatt said
2341 2011-06-14 16:41:27 <devrandom> BlueMatt: sounds good... I think I should work on splitting the dependency builds into a separate gitian process, I think both you and sipa were getting frustrated with how long it takes to build
2342 2011-06-14 16:41:40 <Optimo> off by default, witha welcome screen explaining succintly that the wallet is otherwise unencrypted
2343 2011-06-14 16:41:44 <Anon176> sipa, where are you going to post your article?
2344 2011-06-14 16:41:50 <TD> ah there we go
2345 2011-06-14 16:41:50 <sipa> Anon176: article?
2346 2011-06-14 16:41:54 <TD> their confirmation mail got filtered out
2347 2011-06-14 16:42:02 <BlueMatt> well it worked fine by me once I figured out that kvm wasnt loading all the time, but I cant speak for sipa
2348 2011-06-14 16:42:09 <Anon176> i thought you said you would write an article, or someone did.
2349 2011-06-14 16:42:19 <BlueMatt> and I probably wouldnt want to gitian build on my laptop
2350 2011-06-14 16:42:20 <Anon176> about deflation and stuff.
2351 2011-06-14 16:42:23 Mononofu has joined
2352 2011-06-14 16:42:32 <sipa> Anon176: no intention, i was just trying to convince you
2353 2011-06-14 16:42:33 <devrandom> BlueMatt: doesn't mingw take 1 hour or something?
2354 2011-06-14 16:42:52 <Anon176> ok.
2355 2011-06-14 16:42:55 <Optimo> diversify now
2356 2011-06-14 16:42:58 <BlueMatt> dont think its quite that bad on the desktop, but its probably 30-45 min
2357 2011-06-14 16:43:27 <Anon176> sipa, if it turns out bitcoin doesnt work, please remember my suggestion.
2358 2011-06-14 16:43:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: it's not fun to see a compile error in net.cpp only after building all of openssl, boost, wx, ...
2359 2011-06-14 16:43:30 <Anon176> i hope some one does.
2360 2011-06-14 16:43:38 <devrandom> brb
2361 2011-06-14 16:44:04 lessPlastic has joined
2362 2011-06-14 16:44:09 <Optimo> Anon176, your idea is about a small % of loss I think
2363 2011-06-14 16:44:17 <Optimo> its not enough loss to make bitcoin not work
2364 2011-06-14 16:44:22 lessPlastic has quit (Client Quit)
2365 2011-06-14 16:44:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: very true, thats why I dont ever touch gitian for normal building, just releases, but yea...it would always be nice to be able to make sure its a clean environment to build in even for testing...
2366 2011-06-14 16:44:41 <jgarzik> Anon176: well, there's this: http://garzikrants.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-adam-cohen-re-bitcoin.html
2367 2011-06-14 16:44:46 <jgarzik> Anon176: point #2
2368 2011-06-14 16:44:49 <Anon176> optimo, well bitcoin might well work for quite some time
2369 2011-06-14 16:44:59 * nathan7 bounces around
2370 2011-06-14 16:46:30 <Anon176> jgarzik 'deflation is evil' is not what i meant like that article says. it's unpredictable defaltion that is an issue, it creates instability.
2371 2011-06-14 16:46:41 <Anon176> unpredictability
2372 2011-06-14 16:47:26 <Anon176> we are just replacing unpredictable inflation with unpredictanble defdlation.
2373 2011-06-14 16:47:34 <Optimo> I don't thikn lost coins is unpredicatable to more than a % point
2374 2011-06-14 16:47:50 <Optimo> you say unpredicatble, studies who it's quite predicatable'
2375 2011-06-14 16:47:54 <Optimo> show*
2376 2011-06-14 16:47:55 <Anon176> hoarding is always unpredictable.
2377 2011-06-14 16:48:01 <jgarzik> Anon176: the point of the link is that it's an uninteresting argument
2378 2011-06-14 16:48:02 <Optimo> hoarding is not a problem
2379 2011-06-14 16:48:06 <TD> jgarzik: did you get the mail i just sent to the list? i think sfs web archives may be slow
2380 2011-06-14 16:48:06 <jgarzik> especially on a dev channel
2381 2011-06-14 16:48:15 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2382 2011-06-14 16:48:21 <Optimo> hoarding does not equate to lost, tho you say otherwise
2383 2011-06-14 16:48:22 <jgarzik> TD: 'flood control limits' ?
2384 2011-06-14 16:48:26 <sipa> jgarzik: so, for next release (0.4.0?), autotools + wallet class + wallet encryption?
2385 2011-06-14 16:48:33 <Optimo> hoarding is deferred spending
2386 2011-06-14 16:48:36 <TD> cool
2387 2011-06-14 16:48:38 <jgarzik> sipa: yes
2388 2011-06-14 16:48:47 <Optimo> what's the use in hoaring coins, it's a silly excerise that we will grow out of
2389 2011-06-14 16:48:47 prax has joined
2390 2011-06-14 16:48:57 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: can sipa's showwallet stuff get merged too?
2391 2011-06-14 16:48:59 <jgarzik> sipa: several people got big wallets stolen, so wallet crypto is -very- important
2392 2011-06-14 16:49:12 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: it's a lower priority. I won't say "yes" or "no"
2393 2011-06-14 16:49:15 <jrmithdobbs> (assuming he can mangle it to work with wallet encryption)
2394 2011-06-14 16:49:18 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: needs more finetuning imho
2395 2011-06-14 16:49:22 <jgarzik> the zen of release engineering. it's all a balance, man.
2396 2011-06-14 16:49:26 <Anon176> if you hoard, when someone loses their coins your coins increase in value. one thing is tied to the other.
2397 2011-06-14 16:49:35 <jgarzik> Anon176: take it to #bitcoin-economics
2398 2011-06-14 16:49:49 <jgarzik> Anon176: that's what #bitcoin-economics is there for
2399 2011-06-14 16:49:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: personally, Id like to see much better fee schedule (backend stuff, unrelated to fee ui) for 0.4.0 much more than wallet crypto
2400 2011-06-14 16:50:11 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya i've been beating on it and having various issues (that i've discussed with you;) but something like that is needed with the current growth
2401 2011-06-14 16:50:12 sabalaba has joined
2402 2011-06-14 16:50:17 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the people who lost 25k BTC due to theft would disagree with you...
2403 2011-06-14 16:50:24 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: we need good backup methods
2404 2011-06-14 16:50:30 <Anon176> jgarzik maybe i will thank you for the suggestion. the other bitcoin channel is definitely not useful for this because they only talk about mining and things like that.
2405 2011-06-14 16:50:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm not sure we can agree on a good fee schedule on such short notice
2406 2011-06-14 16:51:11 <jgarzik> sipa, BlueMatt: are you both on bitcoin-development@SF?
2407 2011-06-14 16:51:14 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
2408 2011-06-14 16:51:16 <sipa> i am
2409 2011-06-14 16:51:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: hence why Id say do something like what you proposed with good default which is ~= current one and more customizable on the miners part
2410 2011-06-14 16:51:18 octarine has joined
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2412 2011-06-14 16:51:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, but my email is a bit wonky atm...long story
2413 2011-06-14 16:51:35 <Anon176> jgarzik but accoding to the bitcoin website that channel doesnt exist
2414 2011-06-14 16:51:40 <BlueMatt> (I dont think Ill lose any, but getting access to it is a bit hard)
2415 2011-06-14 16:51:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: did you see the comment about unspending in the pull request? that is a pretty big deal.
2416 2011-06-14 16:51:57 AlreadyDead has joined
2417 2011-06-14 16:52:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: i think i agree with jgarzik there
2418 2011-06-14 16:52:15 <BlueMatt> yep absolutely agree...need to code that using the existing stuff, but thats for later
2419 2011-06-14 16:52:20 <Anon176> jgarzik there is no bitcoin-economics channel acoring to bitcoin.org
2420 2011-06-14 16:52:32 <BlueMatt> Anon176: -otc tends to be that
2421 2011-06-14 16:52:34 <jgarzik> allowing users to make fees optional for the cases where TX's will not get relayed will cause support headaches
2422 2011-06-14 16:52:59 <jgarzik> Anon176, BlueMatt: #bitcoin-economics is fully registered with freenode just recently
2423 2011-06-14 16:53:07 <Anon176> bluematt otc is for selling
2424 2011-06-14 16:53:09 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: when did bitcoin-devolpment@sf get started?
2425 2011-06-14 16:53:12 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
2426 2011-06-14 16:53:12 TD has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2427 2011-06-14 16:53:17 <sipa> first thing i think is having a new relay policy that does not just drop transactions
2428 2011-06-14 16:53:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: -otc is for selling, and it got moved to -otc-foyer initially
2429 2011-06-14 16:53:26 <sipa> but has other anti spam measures
2430 2011-06-14 16:53:35 <BlueMatt> ok, well I suppose I havent touched -otc in too long ;)
2431 2011-06-14 16:53:36 <Anon176> jgarzik i don't know if you are just trying to get me out of here or not but i was about to leave anyway.
2432 2011-06-14 16:53:41 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: last week when Gavin created it
2433 2011-06-14 16:53:52 <BlueMatt> Anon176: its just off topic for -dev
2434 2011-06-14 16:53:54 <sipa> btw, when is gavin's talk?
2435 2011-06-14 16:53:58 <jgarzik> Anon176: you don't have to leave, just stop spamming with offtopic stuff
2436 2011-06-14 16:54:04 <jgarzik> sipa: today
2437 2011-06-14 16:54:11 <sipa> yes, i know it's todat, but when :)
2438 2011-06-14 16:54:25 <sipa> guess we'll hear how it was anyway
2439 2011-06-14 16:54:26 <onovy> jgarzik: missed my question? :)
2440 2011-06-14 16:54:30 shLONG has quit ()
2441 2011-06-14 16:54:59 bitdev has joined
2442 2011-06-14 16:55:09 Anon176 has quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
2443 2011-06-14 16:55:45 <bitdev> hi!
2444 2011-06-14 16:55:49 falafell has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2445 2011-06-14 16:56:06 anu has joined
2446 2011-06-14 16:56:11 <bitdev> lots of lurkers, not much chat! :-)
2447 2011-06-14 16:56:26 <jgarzik> fees want fixing -- but it's a hard theoretical problem, handling the spam issue, usability issue, existing clients, unspending, ...
2448 2011-06-14 16:56:29 <bitdev> anu - dialin.net? You serious?
2449 2011-06-14 16:56:33 <jgarzik> satoshi didnt' even get it right the first time
2450 2011-06-14 16:56:47 <jgarzik> at 0.0005 we bought ourselves time
2451 2011-06-14 16:56:47 <gjs278> did you just defile the great man satoshi
2452 2011-06-14 16:56:59 <jgarzik> but wallet crypto needs fixing ASAP
2453 2011-06-14 16:57:01 <bitdev> Wondering why for a crypto currency the wallet isn't encrypted?
2454 2011-06-14 16:57:03 <BlueMatt> jgarzik sipa: re: fee ui: ok, so what about removing the override checkbox so that it still has the much-clearer options dialog and wording?
2455 2011-06-14 16:57:04 <jgarzik> s/fixing/merging/
2456 2011-06-14 16:57:06 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: cool, subscribed.
2457 2011-06-14 16:57:15 <gjs278> satoshi, reveal yourself to defend your honor
2458 2011-06-14 16:57:32 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I'm OK with improving UI and wording for current fee setup
2459 2011-06-14 16:58:15 <jgarzik> sipa: I was tempted to merge your wallet class last night, at least the first part (move code to wallet.cpp), but it was late
2460 2011-06-14 16:58:26 <sipa> jgarzik: i think it needs rebasing
2461 2011-06-14 16:58:34 <jgarzik> sipa: that's another reason why I held off..
2462 2011-06-14 16:58:39 <BlueMatt> does someone have time to rebase wallet crypto onto wallet class? ;)
2463 2011-06-14 16:58:40 <sipa> i'll try to do that soon
2464 2011-06-14 16:59:08 <jgarzik> sipa, BlueMatt: wallet class needs a Gavin ack (which hopefully shouldn't be difficult)
2465 2011-06-14 16:59:27 <sipa> jgarzik: i think even the "fixed part" and "per kb" splitting of the fee config can be merged too, i guess
2466 2011-06-14 16:59:43 <sipa> only the overriding is dangerous
2467 2011-06-14 16:59:44 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2468 2011-06-14 16:59:45 <jgarzik> sipa: even the splitting is a change that needs discussing first
2469 2011-06-14 16:59:56 <jgarzik> sipa: (with community)
2470 2011-06-14 16:59:57 <BlueMatt> well go bump the existing thread then ;)
2471 2011-06-14 17:00:28 <sipa> jgarzik: forum community, of mailing list community?
2472 2011-06-14 17:00:29 slush1 has joined
2473 2011-06-14 17:01:22 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
2474 2011-06-14 17:01:29 <Diablo-D3> who the fuck is amir taaki?
2475 2011-06-14 17:01:40 <Diablo-D3> and why the fuck is he speaking on behalf of the bitcoin community
2476 2011-06-14 17:01:59 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: a1) genjix a2) because he whined a lot
2477 2011-06-14 17:02:19 <jgarzik> sipa: a fair question
2478 2011-06-14 17:02:24 * jgarzik deftly avoids answering :)
2479 2011-06-14 17:02:35 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so my code for creating btc address-style privkey exports "works" if I start with a privkey decoded from one dumpprivkey gives me but not if I start from EC_KEY_get0_private_key() any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong? (or points to your code that'd be helpful?)
2480 2011-06-14 17:02:39 trentzb has joined
2481 2011-06-14 17:02:42 <jgarzik> I'm not even sure I like the fee split -- but I readily admit I have not thought it through
2482 2011-06-14 17:02:56 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I PM'd Hal Finney to see if he would give wallet crypto some extra review
2483 2011-06-14 17:03:28 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2486 2011-06-14 17:03:54 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: what prompted that?
2487 2011-06-14 17:04:03 <Diablo-D3> slashdot
2488 2011-06-14 17:04:06 lessPlastic has joined
2489 2011-06-14 17:04:10 <Kireji> has anyone seen the slides or particiapting in the presentation Gavin is giving at CIA?
2490 2011-06-14 17:04:25 El-Loco has quit ()
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2492 2011-06-14 17:04:35 <Diablo-D3> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/06/14/1357239/Ask-Amir-Taaki-About-Bitcoin
2493 2011-06-14 17:04:36 <Diablo-D3> seriously
2494 2011-06-14 17:04:47 <Diablo-D3> wer need to quit letting people talk on behalf of bitcoin
2495 2011-06-14 17:05:05 <Diablo-D3> if its not satoshi, slush, tycho, me, m0, or jgarzik
2496 2011-06-14 17:05:07 <Diablo-D3> or gavin
2497 2011-06-14 17:05:11 <Diablo-D3> then shut the fuck up.
2498 2011-06-14 17:05:43 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2499 2011-06-14 17:05:53 <jrmithdobbs> i think slush, you, and tycho can be removed from that list tbqh
2500 2011-06-14 17:06:18 <Diablo-D3> hey man, Ive been here since the beginning
2501 2011-06-14 17:06:20 <gjs278> who is amir taaki
2502 2011-06-14 17:06:26 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: this is what Im saying!
2503 2011-06-14 17:06:36 <Diablo-D3> apparently its douchenuts mcfaggotpants, but hey
2504 2011-06-14 17:06:41 <Diablo-D3> sorry, I mean genjix
2505 2011-06-14 17:06:45 <gjs278> lol
2506 2011-06-14 17:06:56 <Diablo-D3> you know, all the keys are close to each other and shit
2507 2011-06-14 17:07:04 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: i just mean as far as publicity, no disrespect man
2508 2011-06-14 17:07:11 hereforfun has joined
2509 2011-06-14 17:07:14 <Wuked> Is port 8333 TCP the only port bitcoin needs opening ?
2510 2011-06-14 17:07:15 <jrmithdobbs> s/publicity/public speaking/
2511 2011-06-14 17:07:39 <Kireji> Diablo-D3: "letting" people talk?
2512 2011-06-14 17:08:09 <Kireji> Diablo-D3: I'm not sure what country you live in, but in the world I want to be in, not letting someone talk is a serious offense
2513 2011-06-14 17:09:01 picci has joined
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2517 2011-06-14 17:09:56 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2518 2011-06-14 17:09:58 <Kireji> and as for picking individual's seniority based primarily on time-of-participation, again, that just doesn't work. Bazaar-based participation communities succeed by people getting things done, and done well, not on arbitrary preventions and rules
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2524 2011-06-14 17:12:10 <Diablo-D3> Kireji: in he US you cant officially talk for some group of people without their permission
2525 2011-06-14 17:12:16 DrewSJ has joined
2526 2011-06-14 17:12:19 <Diablo-D3> this isnt some mythical free speech issue
2527 2011-06-14 17:12:24 <Diablo-D3> dont get your libertarian panties in a wad
2528 2011-06-14 17:12:47 darbsllim has joined
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2532 2011-06-14 17:13:19 <jrmithdobbs> no those were ESR loving panties
2533 2011-06-14 17:13:24 <jrmithdobbs> not lolbertarian panties
2534 2011-06-14 17:13:33 <jrmithdobbs> get it right
2535 2011-06-14 17:13:41 <forrestv> Diablo-D3, he never said he was talking a for Bitcoin, just about bitcoins
2536 2011-06-14 17:13:58 <forrestv> -a
2537 2011-06-14 17:14:07 <Diablo-D3> yes, and Im taking about him being on slashdot
2538 2011-06-14 17:14:11 <Diablo-D3> there is a problem with this.
2539 2011-06-14 17:14:28 <Diablo-D3> people are going to misconstrue anything he says as actual fact
2540 2011-06-14 17:15:03 <Kireji> Diablo-D3: what "group" are you referring to? last I checked no one has trademarked bitcoins (and at this point can't), no one has incorporated an organization
2541 2011-06-14 17:15:07 onovy has left ("OdcházÃm")
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2543 2011-06-14 17:15:54 <Diablo-D3> Kireji: because I dont particularly like inviting some backwards mouth breathers from the government looking into shit
2544 2011-06-14 17:16:00 lumos has joined
2545 2011-06-14 17:16:08 <Diablo-D3> its bad enough the CIA are now using bitcoins for their drug business
2546 2011-06-14 17:16:18 <Diablo-D3> at least they're half way intelligent
2547 2011-06-14 17:16:26 <jrmithdobbs> how is that anything but good for bitcoin?
2548 2011-06-14 17:16:34 <Diablo-D3> but the real knuckle draggers from congress? fuck that shit
2549 2011-06-14 17:16:37 <jgarzik> <genjix> I do not agree with people who talk about bitcoin and opportunistically and specifically fail to mention the drugs. People will find out soon enough and it's better to be up front and honest.
2550 2011-06-14 17:16:38 <jrmithdobbs> legalaties of the cia's activities aside, of course
2551 2011-06-14 17:16:41 <Kireji> Diablo-D3: you're trolling is starting to peak through here
2552 2011-06-14 17:16:45 <jgarzik> *facepalm* *facepalm* *facepalm*
2553 2011-06-14 17:16:46 <jgarzik> sigh
2554 2011-06-14 17:16:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's simple, he and jgarzik are the only ones to respond to press on the mailing list
2555 2011-06-14 17:17:01 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: and maybe it should just be jgarzik
2556 2011-06-14 17:17:05 <Diablo-D3> or even just gavin
2557 2011-06-14 17:17:11 <Diablo-D3> where the fuck is gavin anyhow
2558 2011-06-14 17:17:14 <Diablo-D3> havent seen him lately
2559 2011-06-14 17:17:15 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, gavin didn't even respond to the email
2560 2011-06-14 17:17:40 wardearia has quit (Changing host)
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2562 2011-06-14 17:17:42 <Kireji> Diablo-D3: I think you are completely misunderstanding the concept of "decentralized"
2563 2011-06-14 17:17:47 <phantomcircuit> also ill be sure to tell amir to make it clear he doesn't represent the entire bitcoin community, which im certain he'll do
2564 2011-06-14 17:17:56 Guest64781 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2565 2011-06-14 17:18:03 johnnympereira5 has joined
2566 2011-06-14 17:18:04 <phantomcircuit> in fact im sure he'll be more than happy to do that
2567 2011-06-14 17:18:10 lessPlastic has joined
2568 2011-06-14 17:18:13 <Diablo-D3> Kireji: I think you misunderstood the concept of "knuckle draggers"
2569 2011-06-14 17:18:18 topace has joined
2570 2011-06-14 17:18:19 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: see above?
2571 2011-06-14 17:18:27 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: tell him NOT to proactively mention drugs
2572 2011-06-14 17:18:28 <Kireji> irony: < Diablo-D3> Kireji: I think you misunderstood the concept of "knuckle draggers"
2573 2011-06-14 17:18:49 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, dont tell him this, but he's being handled *whistles*
2574 2011-06-14 17:18:55 dolch has joined
2575 2011-06-14 17:18:55 <Diablo-D3> they simply do not understand people do things in a decentralized way for the greater good that doesnt harm their little pansy ass worldviews
2576 2011-06-14 17:18:57 <phantomcircuit> well as much as he can be
2577 2011-06-14 17:19:02 <jrmithdobbs> seriously
2578 2011-06-14 17:19:11 <jrmithdobbs> why the fuck would you bring up drugs unprompted?
2579 2011-06-14 17:19:14 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: well get you or Donald or something to filter his damn slashdot answer
2580 2011-06-14 17:19:32 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: because thats what slashdot and the other piles of shit out there think bitcoin is for
2581 2011-06-14 17:19:42 <Diablo-D3> and people think thats what bitcoin is for because the CIA fucked up
2582 2011-06-14 17:19:50 <Diablo-D3> and gavin should have kept his fucking mouth shut on the forbes interview
2583 2011-06-14 17:19:59 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, we've been doing that for a while now, but really there is no filtering amir
2584 2011-06-14 17:20:06 <jeremias> well, to me it seems like bitcoin is used mostly for speculation, and the second most usage is for drugs
2585 2011-06-14 17:20:33 <jgarzik> jeremias: it seems to the press, which is NOT the same thing
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2587 2011-06-14 17:21:06 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, if you want a preview of the questions and to supply your input im sure he'd be fine with that also
2588 2011-06-14 17:21:28 robin has quit (Quit: robin)
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2590 2011-06-14 17:21:31 <Diablo-D3> hell, why dont they interview me
2591 2011-06-14 17:21:32 <Kireji> jeremias: the thing I see it being used most for in transaction is person-to-person bounties and donations for good works
2592 2011-06-14 17:21:41 <Diablo-D3> I'll be happy to tell the world that BTC is overvalued.
2593 2011-06-14 17:21:56 <Diablo-D3> I mean, if we're going to fuck shit up, might as well do it right
2594 2011-06-14 17:22:11 <pierce1> :-O /me sells all coins
2595 2011-06-14 17:22:12 Broskevic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2596 2011-06-14 17:22:16 <Diablo-D3> no one likes the truth, and lets tell everyone the truth and see how much they dont like it
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2600 2011-06-14 17:22:35 <Kireji> jeremias: people are paying for things they want to support online, for example: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/hzarj/mt_gox_plotting_software_now_open_source/
2601 2011-06-14 17:22:40 pierce1 is now known as pierce
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2603 2011-06-14 17:25:00 <jeremias> Kireji: well, the problem is that nobody can really collect statistics about what bitcoin is mostly used for
2604 2011-06-14 17:25:12 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, pm?
2605 2011-06-14 17:25:30 <Wuked> How do I force my bitcoin client to connect to another client ?
2606 2011-06-14 17:25:31 <jeremias> we only know that for latest 24h there was 1.6 million worth of bitcoin transactions etc
2607 2011-06-14 17:25:41 <jeremias> but no one can say what is behind those transactions
2608 2011-06-14 17:25:45 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: i think lulz is a higher use than drugs
2609 2011-06-14 17:25:50 <Kireji> jeremias: true
2610 2011-06-14 17:25:51 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
2611 2011-06-14 17:25:53 <jeremias> drugs, guns, software?
2612 2011-06-14 17:25:57 <wumpus> hacking :p
2613 2011-06-14 17:26:01 <phantomcircuit> Wuked, -connect=ip
2614 2011-06-14 17:26:17 <jrmithdobbs> no -addnode= if you want it to connect to others as well
2615 2011-06-14 17:26:19 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: everyone else messages me without permission, why should you be any different?
2616 2011-06-14 17:26:31 <jrmithdobbs> -connect= will ONLY connect to the given ip
2617 2011-06-14 17:26:32 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i have irc manners ;)
2618 2011-06-14 17:26:44 <phantomcircuit> so was that a yes? xD
2619 2011-06-14 17:27:05 <Diablo-D3> yes.
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2626 2011-06-14 17:34:35 <sipa> jeremias: if i have a 10000 BTC coin in my wallet, and send you 1 BTC, i create a transaction with the 10000 BTC coin as input, and a 1 BTC and a 9999 BTC one as output
2627 2011-06-14 17:34:46 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2628 2011-06-14 17:34:55 <Wuked> thanks guys
2629 2011-06-14 17:35:00 <Wuked> it was -addnode I was looking for
2630 2011-06-14 17:35:08 <Wuked> without it I get 0 connections
2631 2011-06-14 17:35:09 <Wuked> :(
2632 2011-06-14 17:35:40 <phantomcircuit> Wuked, what version are you running?
2633 2011-06-14 17:35:49 <Wuked> bitcoin-0.3.22/
2634 2011-06-14 17:35:53 <phantomcircuit> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.23/bitcoin-0.3.23-linux.tar.gz/download
2635 2011-06-14 17:36:08 <sipa> jeremias: you will see that as a 10000 BTC transaction
2636 2011-06-14 17:36:19 <sipa> jeremias: even though there was economically only a 1 BT one
2637 2011-06-14 17:36:26 <phantomcircuit> Wuked, upgrade to 0.3.23
2638 2011-06-14 17:36:27 cronopio has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2639 2011-06-14 17:36:41 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: what's your email (or Donald's)?
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2641 2011-06-14 17:37:00 <Wuked> way is 0.3.22 still the main link on bitcoin.org?
2642 2011-06-14 17:37:06 <sipa> Wuked: refresh
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2645 2011-06-14 17:37:10 <jgarzik> sipa: so.... any chance you or BlueMatt can update the 0.3.23 linux and windows[.zip] builds?
2646 2011-06-14 17:37:12 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, phantomcircuit@covertinferno.org donald@bitcoinconsultancy.com
2647 2011-06-14 17:37:34 <phantomcircuit> Wuked, 0.3.22 isn't...
2648 2011-06-14 17:37:47 <sipa> jgarzik: what needs to go in the zip file?
2649 2011-06-14 17:37:54 gsathya_ has left ()
2650 2011-06-14 17:38:02 <Wuked> ah
2651 2011-06-14 17:38:05 <Wuked> it's not now
2652 2011-06-14 17:38:06 pnicholson has joined
2653 2011-06-14 17:38:25 <sipa> jgarzik: updating the linux one is easy - just moving it into a subdirectory
2654 2011-06-14 17:39:09 BlueMatt has joined
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2658 2011-06-14 17:39:31 <jgarzik> ah hah it's a BlueMatt :)
2659 2011-06-14 17:39:34 * jgarzik resends
2660 2011-06-14 17:39:43 <jgarzik> sipa: so.... any chance you or BlueMatt can update the 0.3.23 linux and windows[.zip] builds?
2661 2011-06-14 17:39:44 <Diablo-D3> anything interesting changed in 0.3.23?
2662 2011-06-14 17:39:56 <BlueMatt> not here, not till I get back
2663 2011-06-14 17:40:00 <sipa> Diablo-D3: connect timeouts, lower minimum fees for non-free transactions
2664 2011-06-14 17:40:22 * BlueMatt is confused as to why wpa-supplicant insists on roaming every 10 seconds, freaking out the ap and kicking him off this damn wifi
2665 2011-06-14 17:41:30 lessPlastic has joined
2666 2011-06-14 17:42:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: does the windows .zip file get created by gitian as well (can't check right now), or is it something else?
2667 2011-06-14 17:42:53 <BlueMatt> Ive just been sending jgarzik gitian's out folder in a tar, and I believe hes just been zipping that up
2668 2011-06-14 17:43:04 <BlueMatt> minus the setup.exe
2669 2011-06-14 17:43:11 <jgarzik> yep
2670 2011-06-14 17:43:18 lessPlastic has quit (Client Quit)
2671 2011-06-14 17:43:21 <jgarzik> I "mv out bitcoin-$VERSION" then zip it
2672 2011-06-14 17:43:32 <jgarzik> after first moving -win32-setup.exe elsewhere
2673 2011-06-14 17:43:48 <sipa> ok, i'll send you a tar later today
2674 2011-06-14 17:44:10 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
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2677 2011-06-14 17:48:04 <jgarzik> sipa: thanks!
2678 2011-06-14 17:48:31 <jrmithdobbs> using ssh from coffee shops has reminded me what internet connections were like ~a decade ago
2679 2011-06-14 17:48:31 mosimo has joined
2680 2011-06-14 17:48:34 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
2681 2011-06-14 17:48:52 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i'm currently on a tethered edge connection in a train :)
2682 2011-06-14 17:49:24 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: if my phone wasn't almost dead I'm p sure tethered evdoa or wimax would be less latent
2683 2011-06-14 17:49:27 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2684 2011-06-14 17:49:45 <sipa> jgarzik: to rebase walletclass, is there a way to do it the other way around?
2685 2011-06-14 17:49:52 <jgarzik> sipa: ?
2686 2011-06-14 17:50:02 <sipa> so he tries to merge all commits in current master one by one with walletclass
2687 2011-06-14 17:50:16 <sipa> instead of trying to apply the walletclass patches on master
2688 2011-06-14 17:50:46 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
2689 2011-06-14 17:50:49 <jgarzik> sipa: did you try 'git pull' to a side branch, let git handle merge, then check for missing code? that seems easier than rebasing.
2690 2011-06-14 17:50:52 <Diablo-D3> forums shit themselves again
2691 2011-06-14 17:51:08 <jrmithdobbs> sipa ya what jgarzik said is the easiest
2692 2011-06-14 17:51:33 <nathan7> lala
2693 2011-06-14 17:51:40 <sipa> not sure what you mean
2694 2011-06-14 17:51:54 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: git checkout -b merge-walletclass walletclass
2695 2011-06-14 17:51:58 <sipa> i never use pull; it's a combination of fetch and merge, no?
2696 2011-06-14 17:52:06 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: git pull bitcoin/master
2697 2011-06-14 17:52:18 <sipa> ok, let's see
2698 2011-06-14 17:52:49 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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2701 2011-06-14 17:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya it is, you could replaced pull with a fetch and a merge with same remote ref
2702 2011-06-14 17:54:21 <sipa> ok, now i have a conflict in five files by all kinds of changes
2703 2011-06-14 17:54:54 cronopio has joined
2704 2011-06-14 17:55:24 <sipa> walletcvass is a massive change, the things that happened in master are very small
2705 2011-06-14 17:55:57 <sipa> i just want it to try to apply those changes to walletclass - isn't that possible?
2706 2011-06-14 17:56:00 <jgarzik> yeah code movement is always a bear, no matter how you slice it
2707 2011-06-14 17:56:19 <jgarzik> sipa: it's a bit difficult, hand-editing patches and the like
2708 2011-06-14 17:56:33 <sipa> i don't mind doing hand editing
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2710 2011-06-14 17:56:38 linagee has joined
2711 2011-06-14 17:56:47 <sipa> but i'd like to do separately for each small change :)
2712 2011-06-14 17:56:59 <sipa> i can do cherry pick of all changes done to master, no?
2713 2011-06-14 17:57:02 <jgarzik> sipa: redoing it from scratch is another option, using your existing patch as a roadmap for what functions to move. that guarantees you capture all upstream change.s
2714 2011-06-14 17:57:17 BlueMatt has joined
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2716 2011-06-14 17:57:18 BlueMatt has joined
2717 2011-06-14 17:57:18 <jgarzik> just cut-n-paste
2718 2011-06-14 17:57:24 <jgarzik> anyway, lunch
2719 2011-06-14 17:58:00 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: you could checkout master and gen a patch from the commit walletclass is based on, then mangle the patch ... that might be easier
2720 2011-06-14 17:58:00 zooko` has joined
2721 2011-06-14 17:58:02 <sipa> jgarzik: i'd rather redo all changes done in master, much less work :)
2722 2011-06-14 17:58:53 anotherwhinydumb has joined
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2725 2011-06-14 17:59:54 <topi`> jgarzik: what's your issue with drugs, anywys?
2726 2011-06-14 17:59:57 antrwinydumbass has quit (Client Quit)
2727 2011-06-14 18:00:18 <topi`> of course drugs ought to be mentioned whenever somebody mentions bitcoin :D
2728 2011-06-14 18:00:35 <sipa> ...
2729 2011-06-14 18:00:43 <topi`> it's just unfortunate that drugs are not mentioned whenever people talk about plain chas.
2730 2011-06-14 18:00:46 <topi`> cash.
2731 2011-06-14 18:00:54 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: only if you want to give schumer and his ilk more ammo ...
2732 2011-06-14 18:01:02 <topi`> sorry to come in the discussion too late :D wife needed help with homework
2733 2011-06-14 18:01:22 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: I regard that as a problem internal to the USA
2734 2011-06-14 18:01:29 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
2735 2011-06-14 18:01:46 <topi`> although I'm losing faith that something as stupid would not happen in european politics.
2736 2011-06-14 18:01:58 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: whether you like or not us legislation against bitcoin will have global consequences
2737 2011-06-14 18:02:11 <topi`> jrmithdobbs: that remains to be seen (I don't believe that personally)
2738 2011-06-14 18:02:30 <topi`> some african countries will find out that they benefit immensely from things like bitcoin
2739 2011-06-14 18:02:35 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: just like anti-internet-gambling laws, KYC, etc haven't had global implications *rolleyes*
2740 2011-06-14 18:02:38 <topi`> of course Mugabe will try to ban it :)
2741 2011-06-14 18:02:50 zooko has joined
2742 2011-06-14 18:03:02 DukeOfURL has joined
2743 2011-06-14 18:03:03 <jrmithdobbs> (if you don't catch the sarcasm they ... they very obviously have)
2744 2011-06-14 18:03:21 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: or the DMCA etc, the list goes on
2745 2011-06-14 18:03:41 agricocb has joined
2746 2011-06-14 18:03:44 <topi`> yep, it all started with DMCA
2747 2011-06-14 18:03:51 <topi`> I think it was already back in 2000
2748 2011-06-14 18:04:10 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: point was, us legislation against is detrimental no matter what you think of the US and it's foreign policy
2749 2011-06-14 18:04:20 <topi`> but I have funded EFF, for what it's worth, in order to fight these things
2750 2011-06-14 18:04:28 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: therefore distancing official stances from LOL DRUGS LOL and silkroad is beneficial.
2751 2011-06-14 18:04:30 <TD> well, the EFF didn't want your donations, it turns out
2752 2011-06-14 18:04:41 <TD> they're giving the funding back, perhaps to the faucet
2753 2011-06-14 18:04:49 <TD> (i mean the bitcoin funding)
2754 2011-06-14 18:04:58 <diki> you guys see luck in mining
2755 2011-06-14 18:05:00 <Wuked> jgarzik: is PP 0.5 stable to use ?
2756 2011-06-14 18:05:01 <jrmithdobbs> TD: they couldn't figure out how to tax it / etc
2757 2011-06-14 18:05:03 <diki> and i am starting to find a pattern
2758 2011-06-14 18:05:12 <zooko`> https://twitter.com/#!/sweis/status/80693650337693696
2759 2011-06-14 18:05:18 <cosurgi> forum is slashdotted?
2760 2011-06-14 18:05:28 <TD> topi`: anyway the people actually doing work don't tend to agree with you
2761 2011-06-14 18:05:36 <jrmithdobbs> diki: "patterns" always emerge to those looking for them. they're usually false patterns.
2762 2011-06-14 18:05:47 <TD> topi`: if you think it's a good idea to heavily promote criminal behavior as a use case for bitcoin, you need to familiarize yourself with the eGold case
2763 2011-06-14 18:05:50 <topi`> TD: what kind of work?
2764 2011-06-14 18:05:50 <diki> i sincerely hope
2765 2011-06-14 18:05:55 <diki> that you are not right
2766 2011-06-14 18:05:58 <TD> topi`: writing code. running exchanges, etc
2767 2011-06-14 18:06:06 <topi`> TD: drugs aren't criminal things in some countries
2768 2011-06-14 18:06:12 <TD> no, but they are in many
2769 2011-06-14 18:06:13 derpadurr has joined
2770 2011-06-14 18:06:17 <topi`> alcohol is a drug, for what it's worth
2771 2011-06-14 18:06:17 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: doesn't matter
2772 2011-06-14 18:06:18 <TD> like the countries where developers live
2773 2011-06-14 18:06:21 vigilyn has quit (Quit: ircN 8.00 for mIRC (20100904) - www.ircN.org)
2774 2011-06-14 18:06:32 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: all the actual work on bitcoin and related software is verifiably being done in places where they are illegal
2775 2011-06-14 18:06:53 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: you realise that anti-bitcoin legislation would make jgarzik and gavin criminals defacto, right?
2776 2011-06-14 18:06:59 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: you understand why this is bad, right?
2777 2011-06-14 18:07:11 <TD> sadly a lot of people jumping on the bitcoin bandwagon, apparently don't understand that
2778 2011-06-14 18:07:32 <jrmithdobbs> topi`: if the lead devs can no longer contribute because of legal hassles it will come tumbling down
2779 2011-06-14 18:07:40 Lenovo01 has joined
2780 2011-06-14 18:07:50 <jeremias> hmm
2781 2011-06-14 18:08:02 <jeremias> isn't bitcoin software pretty stable currently
2782 2011-06-14 18:08:09 <TD> it needs constant work to keep up with the network scaling
2783 2011-06-14 18:08:18 <TD> not having devs is not an option. the system is already creaking under the load
2784 2011-06-14 18:08:21 <jeremias> i think it would be pretty easy to develop it further for anyone
2785 2011-06-14 18:08:23 <TD> see the gigantic startup times seen lately
2786 2011-06-14 18:08:28 nhodges has joined
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2788 2011-06-14 18:08:33 <jeremias> i see...
2789 2011-06-14 18:08:44 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: the code is pretty nasty. even the current people maintaining it have issues maintaining large chunks of it
2790 2011-06-14 18:08:46 <TD> the bitcoin satoshi released _can_ scale, with work. it doesn't scale today.
2791 2011-06-14 18:08:48 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: so you think wrong
2792 2011-06-14 18:09:09 <TD> it's not just about devs anyway
2793 2011-06-14 18:09:13 <jeremias> are you implying that satoshi was lousy coder?
2794 2011-06-14 18:09:24 <TD> he wasn't a professional programmer, imho
2795 2011-06-14 18:09:26 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: no. I am stating it.
2796 2011-06-14 18:09:29 <TD> maybe an academic or smart hobbyist
2797 2011-06-14 18:09:32 <jrmithdobbs> no implications necessary.
2798 2011-06-14 18:09:36 <jeremias> lol
2799 2011-06-14 18:09:46 <jeremias> well, but in a way he was genius
2800 2011-06-14 18:09:47 <TD> the state of the codebase wouldn't be accepted at any high profile tech company
2801 2011-06-14 18:09:55 <jeremias> hmm
2802 2011-06-14 18:10:04 <TD> anyway, bitcoin has no future as a purely black market currency, because you need to be able to exchange with existing currencies
2803 2011-06-14 18:10:06 <sipa> the design of bitcoin as a system is genius, imho
2804 2011-06-14 18:10:08 <sipa> the code is horrible
2805 2011-06-14 18:10:08 <diki> What can one do to prevent wasted getworks?
2806 2011-06-14 18:10:09 <jeremias> i think he just wanted to get it done
2807 2011-06-14 18:10:10 Lenovo_aaa has joined
2808 2011-06-14 18:10:13 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: the blockchain concept is AWESOME. it's implementation isn't horrible if confusing. the rest of the code is awful
2809 2011-06-14 18:10:22 <TD> exchanges fall right bang in the middle of all the existing AML rules, which are intended specifically to stop drug dealing
2810 2011-06-14 18:10:28 <ericmock> are folks just 'maintaining' the code base? I assume there's some clean-up going on too, no?
2811 2011-06-14 18:10:37 <TD> right now it's not really being cleaned up much no
2812 2011-06-14 18:10:37 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: slowly but surely
2813 2011-06-14 18:10:40 <sipa> ericmock: yes, slowly
2814 2011-06-14 18:10:43 <TD> minor changes only
2815 2011-06-14 18:10:44 <jeremias> well, i guess the protocol is pretty well documented, so you could create your own client pretty easily?
2816 2011-06-14 18:10:50 <forrestv> yeah
2817 2011-06-14 18:10:57 <TD> yeah. that might well be how it goes
2818 2011-06-14 18:11:02 <TD> a reimplementation eventually takes over
2819 2011-06-14 18:11:03 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: kind of
2820 2011-06-14 18:11:14 <TD> like bittorrent. or maybe not. we'll see. reimplementation == ton of work
2821 2011-06-14 18:11:15 <jrmithdobbs> jeremias: some of the documentation is misleading and/or flat wrong
2822 2011-06-14 18:11:28 <jrmithdobbs> or completely absent
2823 2011-06-14 18:11:30 <forrestv> the code isn't hard to read, though.
2824 2011-06-14 18:11:41 <jrmithdobbs> forrestv: i disagree :(
2825 2011-06-14 18:11:42 <TD> forrestv: not for some of us. many, many people find it completely impenetrable
2826 2011-06-14 18:11:43 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, i would care to disagree
2827 2011-06-14 18:11:44 <jeremias> hmm, would it be easy to create bitcoin client without generation etc features
2828 2011-06-14 18:11:45 <upb> lmfao
2829 2011-06-14 18:11:46 <sipa> forrestv: not hard to read, it's hard to follow
2830 2011-06-14 18:11:55 <jrmithdobbs> yes that's the issue
2831 2011-06-14 18:11:56 <TD> lots of people can't read c++ anymore
2832 2011-06-14 18:12:03 <jrmithdobbs> the individual bits makes sense
2833 2011-06-14 18:12:05 <ArtForz> forrestv: untangle script sig generation/checking, then say that again ;)
2834 2011-06-14 18:12:05 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, the worst thing is the random flips between big and little endian
2835 2011-06-14 18:12:12 <jrmithdobbs> the whole picture is awful though
2836 2011-06-14 18:12:14 <TD> yeah. understanding the code is one thing.
2837 2011-06-14 18:12:20 <TD> changing it without breaking it
2838 2011-06-14 18:12:22 <TD> that's something else entirely
2839 2011-06-14 18:12:28 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, yeah, i've managed to get past that through trial and error
2840 2011-06-14 18:12:30 <TD> as ArtForz discovered :)
2841 2011-06-14 18:12:31 <upb> thats because the code is a mess ;)
2842 2011-06-14 18:12:44 <manveru> TD: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
2843 2011-06-14 18:12:46 <ericmock> what's the deal with the bitcoinj code? That was thoroughly documented...
2844 2011-06-14 18:12:58 <jrmithdobbs> manveru: that's TD's project, lol
2845 2011-06-14 18:12:58 Lenovo01 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2846 2011-06-14 18:13:06 <manveru> oO
2847 2011-06-14 18:13:10 <sipa> when you really try to change things, you start to realize how badly you understood the code that looked obvious
2848 2011-06-14 18:13:22 <jrmithdobbs> yes
2849 2011-06-14 18:13:22 <sipa> manveru: you know who write bitcoinj, righy?
2850 2011-06-14 18:13:22 bitcoiner has joined
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2852 2011-06-14 18:13:32 <manveru> sipa: how should i?
2853 2011-06-14 18:13:34 <TD> manveru, ;)
2854 2011-06-14 18:13:34 <zooko`> /part #bitcoin-dev
2855 2011-06-14 18:13:35 zooko` has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2856 2011-06-14 18:13:40 <TD> there's no way you could know
2857 2011-06-14 18:13:51 zooko has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2858 2011-06-14 18:14:00 <sipa> manveru: TD did :)
2859 2011-06-14 18:14:11 <ericmock> so, why not (other than a dislike of Java) use that as a base?
2860 2011-06-14 18:14:14 <TD> anyway. to get back "on topic", public service announcement: do not promote drugs or other criminal activity as a legitimate use case of bitcoin
2861 2011-06-14 18:14:33 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: is uint256 doing some magic padding or something?
2862 2011-06-14 18:14:41 <TD> ericmock: it's far from complete
2863 2011-06-14 18:14:46 <ericmock> ah
2864 2011-06-14 18:14:58 <TD> it's getting there for the spv/lightweight mode
2865 2011-06-14 18:15:05 <TD> for a full node that verifies transactions and can mine, far off
2866 2011-06-14 18:15:18 <topi`> phantomcircuit: if I want to create a website that would serve the blockchain on demand to "small" clients, could I use your python code s a base?
2867 2011-06-14 18:15:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i can decode and strip out the key from dumpwallet/privkey output and use it and my code works perfectly fine
2868 2011-06-14 18:15:37 shLONG has joined
2869 2011-06-14 18:15:58 <phantomcircuit> topi`, send me an email and ill provide a specific license for use
2870 2011-06-14 18:15:59 <topi`> phantomcircuit: the task would be to offload holding those huge files (200MB of blockchain yada yada) on a server, and then the client would jQuery it every time it needs to know the missing bits
2871 2011-06-14 18:16:00 <ersi> Yeah, if you want to do Bitcoin a favor - trade in real work and products/services instead of drugs
2872 2011-06-14 18:16:03 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: but using the result of EC_KEY_get0_private_key .... not so much
2873 2011-06-14 18:16:16 <ersi> It'll help you and your neighbour
2874 2011-06-14 18:16:24 <TD> and bitcoin developers
2875 2011-06-14 18:16:25 <phantomcircuit> topi`, be forewarned that python code doesn't do any script checking at all
2876 2011-06-14 18:16:41 <topi`> phantomcircuit: ok, I'll try to write a description about my idea
2877 2011-06-14 18:16:45 <TD> anyway, i'm outta here
2878 2011-06-14 18:17:02 <ersi> TD: Cheers \o
2879 2011-06-14 18:17:26 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2880 2011-06-14 18:17:34 <TD> jgarzik: oh btw might want to put a reference to the -development list on the front page
2881 2011-06-14 18:17:37 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2882 2011-06-14 18:17:56 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: second that
2883 2011-06-14 18:18:16 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: huh?
2884 2011-06-14 18:18:27 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i don't understand the problem
2885 2011-06-14 18:19:49 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: basically i'm trying to figure out what mangling is happening between GetPrivKeyInner() and the encode step
2886 2011-06-14 18:19:49 <Diablo-D3> sigh
2887 2011-06-14 18:20:05 <Diablo-D3> can I buy russian brides with btc yet?
2888 2011-06-14 18:20:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: because as far as I can tell, nothing, but I've not read through uint256
2889 2011-06-14 18:20:30 <Diablo-D3> all I ask is someone that can make stroganoff.
2890 2011-06-14 18:20:33 <Diablo-D3> thats it.
2891 2011-06-14 18:20:55 <Diablo-D3> or I wonder if they have mail order italian brides
2892 2011-06-14 18:21:03 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2895 2011-06-14 18:21:12 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: I can take values decoded from dumpprivkey and re-encode them and get expected results
2896 2011-06-14 18:21:29 <kratosk> bitcoin has been using 100% of my cpu for a long time now despite not having downloaded all teh blocks. I was told that this is bitcoin verifying all the transactions that have ever happened. How long can this possibly take? Why is it verifying before it's done?
2897 2011-06-14 18:22:13 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: but if i gen my own key using EC_KEY_new_from_by_curve_name() and pull it out with EC_KEY_get0_private_key() I do not get expected results
2898 2011-06-14 18:22:24 <nathan7> Boombada bing
2899 2011-06-14 18:22:36 <jrmithdobbs> err s/_from//
2900 2011-06-14 18:22:50 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: make sense?
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2902 2011-06-14 18:25:02 <kratosk> I don't like a program taking all my threads forever. It's too much heat, and I don't understand how anything could take so long to verify some transactions... what is this written in, python?
2903 2011-06-14 18:25:19 <gjs278> lol
2904 2011-06-14 18:25:26 <gjs278> the transactions take time due to network time
2905 2011-06-14 18:25:32 <gjs278> not because it might be python
2906 2011-06-14 18:25:34 <nathan7> kratosk: Python has a GIL, only one thread running at a time.
2907 2011-06-14 18:25:58 <phantomcircuit> nathan7, that's not 100% accurate, only one *python* thread, you can have native code running simultaneously
2908 2011-06-14 18:26:05 <nathan7> Okay, true.
2909 2011-06-14 18:26:06 <kratosk> why am I stuck with with 100% use on my I7 for hours if the bottleneck is network?
2910 2011-06-14 18:26:16 <gjs278> kratosk are you generating coins
2911 2011-06-14 18:26:18 <gjs278> on your client
2912 2011-06-14 18:26:22 <gjs278> if so don't do that
2913 2011-06-14 18:26:24 <jrmithdobbs> lol
2914 2011-06-14 18:26:34 <gjs278> just turn that shit off
2915 2011-06-14 18:26:37 <kratosk> gjs278: how could I be when I haven't downloaded all the blocks?
2916 2011-06-14 18:26:42 <gjs278> oh ok
2917 2011-06-14 18:26:44 <gjs278> well
2918 2011-06-14 18:26:52 vokoda has joined
2919 2011-06-14 18:26:52 <gjs278> I don't see how you could be 100% on an i7 unless you were genning
2920 2011-06-14 18:27:23 <kratosk> I don't see why I would be genning when I don't have all the blocks... how could I even?
2921 2011-06-14 18:27:39 <kratosk> the client has been saying "generating" forever, even when it wasn't using my CPU at 100% for hours.
2922 2011-06-14 18:27:44 <jrmithdobbs> if you hit the generate button it'll do it even without havingthe whole chain downloaded
2923 2011-06-14 18:28:12 <kratosk> I don't even see a generate butoon?
2924 2011-06-14 18:28:16 <kratosk> button
2925 2011-06-14 18:28:30 <jrmithdobbs> what version are you using?
2926 2011-06-14 18:28:32 aaa04 has joined
2927 2011-06-14 18:28:52 <kratosk> 0.3.22-beta
2928 2011-06-14 18:29:08 <jrmithdobbs> you didn't start with the -gen option did you?
2929 2011-06-14 18:29:38 <kratosk> I haven't touched it. I don't know what I'm doing yet... just been waiting days for it to download the blocks
2930 2011-06-14 18:31:24 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ok I think I found it. why in operator=() of base_uint does it treat the first two bytes specially? any idea?
2931 2011-06-14 18:32:24 <kratosk> it's lovely to see there is a new version out before I've even downloaded the database for the version I got ;P
2932 2011-06-14 18:32:30 * kratosk sighs
2933 2011-06-14 18:32:49 osmosis has joined
2934 2011-06-14 18:32:57 <jrmithdobbs> oh nm, uint256 overrides that anyways
2935 2011-06-14 18:33:35 <jrmithdobbs> kratosk: you may be having issues due to one of the p2p connection bugs that's fixed in 3.23 btw
2936 2011-06-14 18:33:36 <kratosk> is there no way to limit the cpu usage to a percentage of a set number of threads?
2937 2011-06-14 18:33:44 <kratosk> of a - or a
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2944 2011-06-14 18:41:29 <dD0T> kratosk: Make sure you haven't checked generate
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2950 2011-06-14 18:44:39 <jrmithdobbs> ;;calc,blocks
2951 2011-06-14 18:44:39 <gribble> Error: "calc,blocks" is not a valid command.
2952 2011-06-14 18:44:49 stuhood has left ()
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2958 2011-06-14 18:47:54 <sipa> kratosk: you're just verifying the block chain
2959 2011-06-14 18:48:00 Nicksasa has joined
2960 2011-06-14 18:48:08 <sipa> what cpu are you on?
2961 2011-06-14 18:48:14 <topi`> phantomcircuit: what's your email addrses?
2962 2011-06-14 18:48:40 <jrmithdobbs> i like how starting up a client that's about 800 blocks behind -connect='ing to a known-good node is spending more time verifying/rejectiing current txns and adding nodes it will never connect to to addr.dat instead of retrying to fetch the chain over and over again
2963 2011-06-14 18:48:44 <jrmithdobbs> lol
2964 2011-06-14 18:48:54 <phantomcircuit> topace, phantomcircuit@covertinferno.{org,com,net}
2965 2011-06-14 18:48:57 <phantomcircuit> er
2966 2011-06-14 18:48:59 <phantomcircuit> topi`, ^
2967 2011-06-14 18:49:04 <topi`> :D
2968 2011-06-14 18:49:05 cronopio has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2969 2011-06-14 18:49:06 <topi`> ok.
2970 2011-06-14 18:49:32 Lenovo__xxx has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2971 2011-06-14 18:49:36 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: is your problem now solved?
2972 2011-06-14 18:50:12 krekbwoy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2973 2011-06-14 18:50:22 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: no, I can't figure out the difference in what you have at the begining of encode and what I have
2974 2011-06-14 18:50:23 sav has joined
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2976 2011-06-14 18:51:07 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: "I do not get expected results" -> what do you get?
2977 2011-06-14 18:51:10 hdon- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2978 2011-06-14 18:51:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: something that doesn't have 5[HJK] at the begining as expected with anything starting with live address magic
2979 2011-06-14 18:51:49 <jrmithdobbs> s/address/privkey/
2980 2011-06-14 18:52:36 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i think there's something rong in my generation code it's looking like, because sometimes my keys are bigger than they should be and I think that's where the problem lies ;P
2981 2011-06-14 18:52:36 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ?
2982 2011-06-14 18:52:57 <phantomcircuit> topi`, im still waiting for someone to send me email over ipv6, not a single one yet
2983 2011-06-14 18:53:08 <sipa> you need to prepend a 128 byte if you want that 5 in the base58 form
2984 2011-06-14 18:53:08 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: email is obsolete :
2985 2011-06-14 18:53:10 <luke-jr> :P
2986 2011-06-14 18:53:14 <topi`> I wonder why there aren't any more bitcoin exchanges? it would be nice to see tens of different world currencies being exchanged against bitcoins. I wonder why it hasn't happened yet?
2987 2011-06-14 18:53:14 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, lol
2988 2011-06-14 18:53:22 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, not when you run your own server it's not
2989 2011-06-14 18:53:25 <luke-jr> topi`: legal hurdles
2990 2011-06-14 18:53:27 <topi`> phantomcircuit: sorry, i'm not a ipv6 expert :(
2991 2011-06-14 18:53:32 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I disagree
2992 2011-06-14 18:53:40 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, lol why
2993 2011-06-14 18:53:41 <ersi> Yeah, it's all about the legal hurdles
2994 2011-06-14 18:53:47 <phantomcircuit> IRC IS OBSOLETE!
2995 2011-06-14 18:53:49 <phantomcircuit> wait
2996 2011-06-14 18:53:51 <topi`> luke-jr: well, neither mtgox or britcoin seem to be having legal hurdles
2997 2011-06-14 18:54:00 <ersi> MtGox is based in .jp
2998 2011-06-14 18:54:01 <phantomcircuit> topi`, oh if only you knew
2999 2011-06-14 18:54:01 zamgo has quit ()
3000 2011-06-14 18:54:02 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: right, that's what i mean by "live privkey magic"
3001 2011-06-14 18:54:04 <luke-jr> topi`: you're not watching
3002 2011-06-14 18:54:28 <topi`> what kind of legal hurdles would those be, then?
3003 2011-06-14 18:54:45 <luke-jr> topi`: government registration, licensing, etc
3004 2011-06-14 18:55:12 <topi`> it's just paperwork :) and btc is probably akin to other virtual currencies like SLL
3005 2011-06-14 18:55:18 glitch-mod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3006 2011-06-14 18:55:28 <topi`> maybe I should just set up my own exchange and then see what happens
3007 2011-06-14 18:55:47 zooko has joined
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3017 2011-06-14 19:00:01 chocobo___ is now known as chocobo__
3018 2011-06-14 19:00:29 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3019 2011-06-14 19:00:53 zooko has joined
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3021 2011-06-14 19:01:14 <md2k7> phantomcircuit: just tell me where to send mail via IPv6, I'd be glad to test it :-)
3022 2011-06-14 19:01:34 <md2k7> phantomcircuit: the only problem I see is telling your address via IRC, which may then show up on the internet
3023 2011-06-14 19:01:51 <phantomcircuit> it's already all over the internetz
3024 2011-06-14 19:01:56 <phantomcircuit> mailing lists and stuff
3025 2011-06-14 19:02:06 <phantomcircuit> spamassassin has my back
3026 2011-06-14 19:02:07 <phantomcircuit> xD
3027 2011-06-14 19:02:14 <phantomcircuit> phantomcircuit@covertinferno.{org,com,net}
3028 2011-06-14 19:02:28 <md2k7> I'm not sure whether the daemons prefer ipv6 to ipv4
3029 2011-06-14 19:02:31 <md2k7> though
3030 2011-06-14 19:02:57 <gmaxwell> md2k7: RFC (mumble) says you must prefer the AAAA record.
3031 2011-06-14 19:03:27 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3032 2011-06-14 19:03:33 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: yuck. cname as your root domain entry?
3033 2011-06-14 19:04:15 zooko has joined
3034 2011-06-14 19:04:21 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: you're lucky to receive mail at all with that going on ;P
3035 2011-06-14 19:04:38 Raziel_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3036 2011-06-14 19:05:34 chocobo__ has quit (Quit: chocobo__)
3037 2011-06-14 19:06:23 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i'm not even getting a banner connecting to your AAAA mx record entry
3038 2011-06-14 19:09:36 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, oh nose
3039 2011-06-14 19:10:12 <phantomcircuit> warning: database /etc/postfix/virtual.db is older than source file /etc/postfix/virtual
3040 2011-06-14 19:10:13 <phantomcircuit> oops
3041 2011-06-14 19:10:42 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: there, now you have some mail from ipv6
3042 2011-06-14 19:10:50 <ZOP> phantomcircuit: he's right, a CNAME is not supposed to occur with any other data, including NS records.
3043 2011-06-14 19:10:55 <jrmithdobbs> if it didn't reject it because of the ^H in the From: header i added, anyways
3044 2011-06-14 19:11:14 krekbwoy has joined
3045 2011-06-14 19:11:15 <ZOP> chickenkiller.com? LOL :P
3046 2011-06-14 19:11:15 <phantomcircuit> yes im aware
3047 2011-06-14 19:11:15 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: forgot i don't have ipv6 enabled on vpn yet, works fine actually connected from a host on ipv6
3048 2011-06-14 19:11:18 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
3049 2011-06-14 19:11:31 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: prly got marked as spam though
3050 2011-06-14 19:11:33 <phantomcircuit> ZOP, i dont have a choice though it's a dynamic ip
3051 2011-06-14 19:11:43 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: sending mail with netcat'll do that
3052 2011-06-14 19:11:52 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, nope it went through
3053 2011-06-14 19:12:09 <jrmithdobbs> wow, it really should have gotten marked as spam, haha
3054 2011-06-14 19:12:19 <jrmithdobbs> didn't even have a Date: header
3055 2011-06-14 19:12:26 <phantomcircuit> score=4.462
3056 2011-06-14 19:12:30 <phantomcircuit> lol
3057 2011-06-14 19:12:34 <phantomcircuit> just barely below the line
3058 2011-06-14 19:13:42 Mononofu has left ()
3059 2011-06-14 19:14:20 Pinion has joined
3060 2011-06-14 19:14:37 <marioxcc> does the bitcoin client connect to every other node in the world?
3061 2011-06-14 19:14:47 <marioxcc> otherwise, how does it chooses which nodes to connect to?
3062 2011-06-14 19:15:08 <phantomcircuit> marioxcc, which ever ones it finds first
3063 2011-06-14 19:15:36 <Wuked> I'm trying to run pushpoold 0.5, and I'm just getting a blank return - no message at all
3064 2011-06-14 19:15:40 <Wuked> ./pushpoold -D 2 -E -F
3065 2011-06-14 19:15:48 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3066 2011-06-14 19:15:52 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3067 2011-06-14 19:15:57 <marioxcc> phantomcircuit: and when it stops?
3068 2011-06-14 19:15:59 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, ps if you include Date: properly it takes like 3 points off
3069 2011-06-14 19:15:59 <Wuked> andit just returns an dies
3070 2011-06-14 19:16:08 <Wuked> no erro messages at all ? :(
3071 2011-06-14 19:16:12 <phantomcircuit> marioxcc, after it has 8 outbound connection
3072 2011-06-14 19:16:12 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ya i was being lazy
3073 2011-06-14 19:16:30 <marioxcc> phantomcircuit: ok, my client says "52 connections"
3074 2011-06-14 19:16:31 Pinion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3075 2011-06-14 19:16:33 Pinion_ has joined
3076 2011-06-14 19:16:42 <marioxcc> what about the other 44?
3077 2011-06-14 19:16:55 <jrmithdobbs> those are inbound
3078 2011-06-14 19:16:56 Pinion_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3079 2011-06-14 19:17:02 <marioxcc> ok
3080 2011-06-14 19:17:16 <phantomcircuit> marioxcc, by default you will never have more than 125
3081 2011-06-14 19:17:20 <phantomcircuit> for reasons that are hilarious
3082 2011-06-14 19:17:29 <phantomcircuit> ps i hope you have > 1GB of ram
3083 2011-06-14 19:17:33 <marioxcc> hilarious?
3084 2011-06-14 19:18:11 <zooko> Okay, thanks folks. I think I have my emacs humming along acceptably well now. Thanks for all the help! Join me on #tahoe-lafs for cool decentralized storage hacking.
3085 2011-06-14 19:18:22 <zooko> Ah, wrong channel. Haha! Join me anyway.
3086 2011-06-14 19:18:26 Pinion has joined
3087 2011-06-14 19:18:28 <zooko> That was supposed to go to #emacs.
3088 2011-06-14 19:18:34 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
3089 2011-06-14 19:18:50 mmyjona has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3090 2011-06-14 19:19:08 d0pefish has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3091 2011-06-14 19:20:17 <phantomcircuit> marioxcc, yes the receive buffer is 10MB, 10MB*125 is "only" 1.25 GB of ram
3092 2011-06-14 19:20:57 <marioxcc> why it's so large?
3093 2011-06-14 19:21:01 RAM2012 has joined
3094 2011-06-14 19:21:20 <phantomcircuit> marioxcc, no idea
3095 2011-06-14 19:21:23 <ArtForz> iirc, large getblocks block size
3096 2011-06-14 19:21:29 toddf has joined
3097 2011-06-14 19:21:53 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, max block is only 1MB though
3098 2011-06-14 19:21:56 <ArtForz> yes
3099 2011-06-14 19:22:08 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: lol figured it out. stupid undocumented EC_KEY api
3100 2011-06-14 19:22:08 <ArtForz> and it requests what was it? 500 at a time?
3101 2011-06-14 19:22:31 <phantomcircuit> yes but 90% of blocks aren't even close
3102 2011-06-14 19:22:35 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: it's only actually getting ~5-10 at a time back right now it seems
3103 2011-06-14 19:22:37 <marioxcc> it seems bogus to have a buffer of fixed size anyway
3104 2011-06-14 19:22:40 <jrmithdobbs> that email to list is very relevant
3105 2011-06-14 19:22:41 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3106 2011-06-14 19:22:46 <ArtForz> marioxcc: no, it isn't
3107 2011-06-14 19:23:13 <jrmithdobbs> took me 30 minutes to catch up a client behind by 800 blocks because other host was closing for flood when trying to catch up by 500 at a time
3108 2011-06-14 19:23:24 <jrmithdobbs> (was using -connect=)
3109 2011-06-14 19:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> good times
3110 2011-06-14 19:23:48 <muffinz> ;;bc,stats
3111 2011-06-14 19:23:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130807 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 232 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 0 hours, 2 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 848096.22952931
3112 2011-06-14 19:23:59 <ArtForz> was that using the broken... I think it was 0.3.19 or so?
3113 2011-06-14 19:24:11 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: no both were .23
3114 2011-06-14 19:24:24 <ArtForz> that ... shouldn't happen
3115 2011-06-14 19:24:30 <jrmithdobbs> just did
3116 2011-06-14 19:24:44 <ArtForz> and which node kicked which?
3117 2011-06-14 19:25:01 <jrmithdobbs> the one being connect='ed to kicked the one connecting
3118 2011-06-14 19:25:05 <ArtForz> hmmm
3119 2011-06-14 19:25:15 <jrmithdobbs> i think, i dunno, i restarted the client on one end already so debug.log is gone :(
3120 2011-06-14 19:25:19 <ArtForz> that means it ran out of send buffer...
3121 2011-06-14 19:25:34 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3122 2011-06-14 19:26:02 <phantomcircuit> neat ipv6 works on my server
3123 2011-06-14 19:26:11 gsathya has joined
3124 2011-06-14 19:26:16 <ArtForz> which iirc is also 10MB
3125 2011-06-14 19:26:22 gsathya has left ()
3126 2011-06-14 19:26:27 eoss has joined
3127 2011-06-14 19:26:28 <ArtForz> unless you set it to something else
3128 2011-06-14 19:26:31 <jrmithdobbs> oh oh, new mlm pitch lady setting up waiting for someone to meet here
3129 2011-06-14 19:26:34 <jrmithdobbs> s/here/her/
3130 2011-06-14 19:27:12 d1234 has joined
3131 2011-06-14 19:28:42 jackmcbarn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3132 2011-06-14 19:28:56 muffinz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3133 2011-06-14 19:30:24 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3134 2011-06-14 19:32:14 <CIA-90> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r14d231f / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Improve nvidia support - http://bit.ly/j4BOFP
3135 2011-06-14 19:32:56 <luke-jr> jgarzik: should cpuminer honour HTTP redirects?
3136 2011-06-14 19:33:48 spiro_ has joined
3137 2011-06-14 19:34:20 <spiro_> does someone know if cudatoolkit is absolutly required to use opencl miners on nvidia cards? or if devdriver is enough?
3138 2011-06-14 19:34:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I think so, and IIRC cpuminer should do that, through libcurl.
3139 2011-06-14 19:34:35 nettotest has joined
3140 2011-06-14 19:35:03 repl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3141 2011-06-14 19:35:16 <nettotest> ;;bc,diffestimate
3142 2011-06-14 19:35:16 <gribble> Error: "bc,diffestimate" is not a valid command.
3143 2011-06-14 19:35:36 <nettotest> ;;bc,diffchange
3144 2011-06-14 19:35:37 <gribble> 49.5787617176 % estimated difficulty change this period
3145 2011-06-14 19:35:43 El-Loco has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3146 2011-06-14 19:35:48 <nettotest> ;;bc,estimate
3147 2011-06-14 19:35:48 <gribble> 848647.40681622
3148 2011-06-14 19:35:56 <Wuked> jgarzik: I'm having issues with pushpool, do you have any ideas ? when I run ./pushpoold it just returns with no output at all
3149 2011-06-14 19:36:02 <Wuked> I've tested version 0.5 and 0.4
3150 2011-06-14 19:36:10 p0s has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3151 2011-06-14 19:36:18 <Wuked> it compiles correctly
3152 2011-06-14 19:36:19 p0s has joined
3153 2011-06-14 19:36:29 <Wuked> with all of the depencies install
3154 2011-06-14 19:36:31 <Wuked> but
3155 2011-06-14 19:36:31 <marioxcc> is MTGOX api gone?
3156 2011-06-14 19:36:33 <Wuked> root@server:/raid/servers/bitcoin/pushpool-0.4.1/sbin# ./pushpoold
3157 2011-06-14 19:36:39 <Wuked> just returns
3158 2011-06-14 19:36:42 <Wuked> with no output at all
3159 2011-06-14 19:37:02 gjs278 has joined
3160 2011-06-14 19:37:03 elly has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3161 2011-06-14 19:37:06 <phantomcircuit> ffs dont run any bitcoin stuff as root
3162 2011-06-14 19:37:11 <phantomcircuit> WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS
3163 2011-06-14 19:37:27 <Wuked> because I'm rulling out permisison problems
3164 2011-06-14 19:37:29 samr7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3165 2011-06-14 19:37:33 nettotest has quit (Client Quit)
3166 2011-06-14 19:37:34 <Wuked> so testing it as root
3167 2011-06-14 19:37:42 <Wuked> but still doesn't work...
3168 2011-06-14 19:38:15 <diki> pushpool works for me running it as is
3169 2011-06-14 19:38:18 <Wuked> any bright ideas ?
3170 2011-06-14 19:38:20 <diki> no sudo no root no nothing
3171 2011-06-14 19:38:37 <jgarzik> Wuked: syslog
3172 2011-06-14 19:38:42 <diki> what do you mean returns?
3173 2011-06-14 19:38:50 <diki> it's prolly running
3174 2011-06-14 19:38:55 <diki> check the system monitor
3175 2011-06-14 19:39:08 <diki> if you dont give it args it wont output anything
3176 2011-06-14 19:39:14 Breign has quit ()
3177 2011-06-14 19:39:19 <diki> but you still need to specify the config file
3178 2011-06-14 19:40:32 glitch-mod has joined
3179 2011-06-14 19:40:44 <Wuked> ah yes I'm seeing errors now on version 0.4 jgarzik - but 0.5 doesn't work at all
3180 2011-06-14 19:40:50 <Wuked> no errors, no syslod, nothing
3181 2011-06-14 19:40:51 <diki> 0.5??
3182 2011-06-14 19:40:52 <diki> when?
3183 2011-06-14 19:41:13 <kratosk> it seems like the last blocks to download are taking the longest
3184 2011-06-14 19:41:25 <Wuked> so I think there may be a problem with 0.5 - or maybe I'm missing something that's not listed ?
3185 2011-06-14 19:41:26 <diki> yeah
3186 2011-06-14 19:41:27 jackmcbarn has joined
3187 2011-06-14 19:41:32 m00p has joined
3188 2011-06-14 19:41:54 spiro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3189 2011-06-14 19:42:00 <phantomcircuit> kratosk, the later blocks contain more transactions
3190 2011-06-14 19:42:38 <Wuked> root@server:/raid/servers/bitcoin# ./pushpool-0.4.1/sbin/pushpoold -D 2 -E -F
3191 2011-06-14 19:42:38 <Wuked> [1308080484.062943] Debug output enabled
3192 2011-06-14 19:42:38 <Wuked> [1308080484.063128] config file(server.json): No such file or directory
3193 2011-06-14 19:42:38 <Wuked> root@server:/raid/servers/bitcoin# ./pushpool-0.5/sbin/pushpoold -D 2 -E -F
3194 2011-06-14 19:42:53 <Wuked> just returns :)
3195 2011-06-14 19:42:59 <Wuked> I'll stick with 0.4.1 for now
3196 2011-06-14 19:43:00 El-Loco has joined
3197 2011-06-14 19:43:19 <diki> [1308080484.063128] config file(server.json): No such file or directory
3198 2011-06-14 19:43:24 <diki> could be that...
3199 2011-06-14 19:43:29 <Wuked> yes
3200 2011-06-14 19:43:32 <Wuked> what I'm saying is
3201 2011-06-14 19:43:35 <Wuked> 0.4 gives an error
3202 2011-06-14 19:43:37 <Wuked> which is correct
3203 2011-06-14 19:43:43 <Wuked> because i've just installed it
3204 2011-06-14 19:43:48 <Wuked> 0.5 doesn't do anything
3205 2011-06-14 19:43:49 <Wuked> at all
3206 2011-06-14 19:43:58 <diki> interesting...
3207 2011-06-14 19:44:05 <Wuked> when it should also throw the same error
3208 2011-06-14 19:44:09 <diki> sadly, i know not the answer
3209 2011-06-14 19:44:21 <diki> erm...
3210 2011-06-14 19:47:09 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: yup, was me missing a step in openssl api. working fine now. hoorah.
3211 2011-06-14 19:47:25 <kratosk> just how large is the bitcoin databse currently?
3212 2011-06-14 19:49:03 <kratosk> I sure have a lot of errors like this: ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 121080 00000000000068f040c2
3213 2011-06-14 19:49:30 samr7 has joined
3214 2011-06-14 19:50:06 <phantomcircuit> kratosk, ~400MB
3215 2011-06-14 19:50:19 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
3216 2011-06-14 19:50:20 <gribble> 130812
3217 2011-06-14 19:50:49 <phantomcircuit> you could fit all the block headers(uncomprssed) into 9MB
3218 2011-06-14 19:50:50 <kratosk> phantomcircuit: argh, thanks. I Had no idea what I was getting into. I'm only at 240mg and been at it for days
3219 2011-06-14 19:52:06 emock has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3220 2011-06-14 19:52:10 kish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3221 2011-06-14 19:52:22 El-Loco has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3222 2011-06-14 19:52:28 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3223 2011-06-14 19:52:31 emock has joined
3224 2011-06-14 19:52:48 HIKZIDprao has joined
3225 2011-06-14 19:53:02 <kratosk> phantomcircuit: tobad I need the transaction history to get started
3226 2011-06-14 19:53:12 OpenOcean has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3227 2011-06-14 19:53:52 <phantomcircuit> kratosk, yeah
3228 2011-06-14 19:55:08 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3229 2011-06-14 19:55:15 samr7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3230 2011-06-14 19:55:19 <upb> < jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: yuck. cname as your root domain entry? <- why ?
3231 2011-06-14 19:55:20 MVXA has quit (Quit: Nothing serves forever)
3232 2011-06-14 19:55:33 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
3233 2011-06-14 19:55:35 <jrmithdobbs> upb: why yuck?
3234 2011-06-14 19:55:41 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3235 2011-06-14 19:55:48 <upb> oh i quoted the wrong line
3236 2011-06-14 19:55:52 <jrmithdobbs> upb: because that's technically against the dns rfcs
3237 2011-06-14 19:55:58 <upb> why wouldnt you receive mail on a cname host
3238 2011-06-14 19:56:03 <upb> orly?
3239 2011-06-14 19:56:10 <jrmithdobbs> yarly
3240 2011-06-14 19:56:14 <upb> dont believe it :)
3241 2011-06-14 19:56:41 <jrmithdobbs> there's lots of stuff people do ALL THE TIME that is against the dns rfcs, you really shouldn't be surprised ;P
3242 2011-06-14 19:56:57 MVXA has joined
3243 2011-06-14 19:57:23 kish has joined
3244 2011-06-14 19:57:39 amiller has joined
3245 2011-06-14 19:57:52 <jrmithdobbs> upb: http://www.simpledns.com/kb.aspx?kbid=1176
3246 2011-06-14 19:58:15 <phantomcircuit> technically i shouldn't have mx entries mixed with cname entries
3247 2011-06-14 19:58:21 <jrmithdobbs> specifically: "While certain other DNS servers may allow you to configure such a CNAME-record, it is still an error to do so."
3248 2011-06-14 19:58:22 El-Loco has joined
3249 2011-06-14 19:58:30 <phantomcircuit> but since i haven't had a single issue i just leave it how it is
3250 2011-06-14 19:58:48 <jrmithdobbs> upb: had to deal with that broken crap all the damned time back when I worked with isps ;P
3251 2011-06-14 19:59:51 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3252 2011-06-14 20:00:09 Nesetalis has joined
3253 2011-06-14 20:00:17 m00p has joined
3254 2011-06-14 20:01:25 <upb> hmm rfc2181
3255 2011-06-14 20:01:41 <upb> The domain name used as the value of a NS resource record, or part of the value of a MX resource record must not be an alias.
3256 2011-06-14 20:01:49 <upb> but it says 'most not' not 'MUST NOT' :D
3257 2011-06-14 20:02:00 <jrmithdobbs> must not == MUST NOT
3258 2011-06-14 20:02:03 <upb> so NO!
3259 2011-06-14 20:02:04 <jrmithdobbs> c'mon now ;P
3260 2011-06-14 20:02:07 <upb> :)
3261 2011-06-14 20:02:30 <jrmithdobbs> alright it's time to get out of here
3262 2011-06-14 20:02:51 <idnar> CNAMEs are so awful, they should never have been implemented in the first place :(
3263 2011-06-14 20:03:08 <phantomcircuit> without them my server wouldn't work at all :(
3264 2011-06-14 20:03:12 <idnar> if you want to make something an alias, the DNS *server* should go do the lookup, not make the client do it
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3266 2011-06-14 20:03:33 <idnar> if it had been done that way from the start, support for that mechanism would be in every DNS server and it wouldn't be a big deal
3267 2011-06-14 20:04:15 <idnar> but of course it is a big deal the way things currently stand, so I don't expect anyone to actually do that instead of CNAMEs; it's just really unpleasant that a DNS lookup can require an unbounded number of DNS queries to be made by the client
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3269 2011-06-14 20:06:11 <phantomcircuit> idnar, hehe you can actually do pretty trivial dns updates with bind, but nobody has them setup because it's a huge security hole
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3277 2011-06-14 20:18:14 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: signed updates are a security hole?
3278 2011-06-14 20:18:32 <ArtForz> yes
3279 2011-06-14 20:18:47 peter345978 has joined
3280 2011-06-14 20:19:07 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's a code path which hasn't been extensively tested
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3284 2011-06-14 20:19:33 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, and given that bind has had about as much trouble with security as sendmail over the years....
3285 2011-06-14 20:19:48 <Guest10739> i am trying to use mtgox's websocket
3286 2011-06-14 20:19:55 <Guest10739> i've had something up for weeks, and now it won't work
3287 2011-06-14 20:19:59 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: ah, so vague worries and nothing specific
3288 2011-06-14 20:20:04 <Guest10739> i noticed the json api now works over https only
3289 2011-06-14 20:20:07 <jgarzik> not a "security hole"
3290 2011-06-14 20:20:11 Guest10739 is now known as gdoteof_home
3291 2011-06-14 20:20:11 <jgarzik> but "I'm generally nervous"
3292 2011-06-14 20:20:14 <jgarzik> big difference
3293 2011-06-14 20:20:48 <gdoteof_home> i tried using secure websocket by using the wss prefix; but no luck. i wonder if he has wss running on something other than the default port
3294 2011-06-14 20:20:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, sure whatever you say
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3298 2011-06-14 20:21:11 <phantomcircuit> gdoteof_home, mtgox is being ddos'd
3299 2011-06-14 20:21:17 <phantomcircuit> so i doubt websockets is up
3300 2011-06-14 20:21:28 <ArtForz> it is up, sporadically
3301 2011-06-14 20:21:46 <gdoteof_home> phantomcircuit: mtgox live is apparently using it
3302 2011-06-14 20:21:55 bitcoined has joined
3303 2011-06-14 20:21:59 <gdoteof_home> http://mtgoxlive.com/orders
3304 2011-06-14 20:22:08 <gdoteof_home> and their other api is up
3305 2011-06-14 20:22:13 <gdoteof_home> but it switched to https only
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3308 2011-06-14 20:26:08 <phantomcircuit> gdoteof_home, they are using their own web socket api
3309 2011-06-14 20:26:15 <phantomcircuit> not a direct link to the mtgox websocket
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3314 2011-06-14 20:31:28 <gdoteof_home> phantomcircuit: what do you mean 'their own' where do they get the data for the live feed?
3315 2011-06-14 20:31:51 LameArse has joined
3316 2011-06-14 20:31:51 <gdoteof_home> i am using my own websocket api.. but i am connecting to a public websocket server that mtgox has
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3320 2011-06-14 20:34:30 <phantomcircuit> gdoteof_home, they might be polling the ticker
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3351 2011-06-14 21:05:53 <jrmithdobbs> idnar: cnames are fine so long as you don't do broken things with them
3352 2011-06-14 21:05:57 pnicholson has joined
3353 2011-06-14 21:06:15 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: I'm looking at you ;P
3354 2011-06-14 21:06:33 <idnar> haha
3355 2011-06-14 21:08:12 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3356 2011-06-14 21:08:17 jjbunny has joined
3357 2011-06-14 21:09:52 <jrmithdobbs> lollin at the guy who pasted his wallet dump on pastebin
3358 2011-06-14 21:10:01 <jrmithdobbs> and then "lost faith" in btc
3359 2011-06-14 21:11:04 machine2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3360 2011-06-14 21:11:19 <jgarzik> heh
3361 2011-06-14 21:11:51 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the one on the forums with 25k btc?
3362 2011-06-14 21:11:58 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3363 2011-06-14 21:12:00 <jrmithdobbs> fuckin lol
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3367 2011-06-14 21:13:55 <wardearia> Can someone explain why cap of 21,000,000 again? It was mentioned previously, but I forgot the reasoning. e.g. the number 21000000 is close to the highest value of the particular variable type or something?
3368 2011-06-14 21:14:30 <ericmock> black-jack, no?
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3370 2011-06-14 21:16:16 <abragin> arbitrary value iirc
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3384 2011-06-14 21:24:00 <eureka^> ;;bc,estimate
3385 2011-06-14 21:24:01 <gribble> 852018.42953553
3386 2011-06-14 21:24:16 <eureka^> ;;bc,stats
3387 2011-06-14 21:24:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130834 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 205 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 57 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 852018.42953553
3388 2011-06-14 21:25:05 vokoda is now known as plb
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3393 2011-06-14 21:27:04 <Draakje> hello, is this the right irc for technical support of bitcoin?
3394 2011-06-14 21:27:31 plbk has joined
3395 2011-06-14 21:28:03 <achim_> don't looks like :) but perhaps you can interested a few expert by giben a short description of your problem
3396 2011-06-14 21:29:12 <Draakje> when i try to mine i constantly get error message: CURL return value = 22
3397 2011-06-14 21:29:26 <achim_> (Os , client version?)
3398 2011-06-14 21:29:52 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: pasted a wallet dump on pastebin?
3399 2011-06-14 21:30:18 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: something like that
3400 2011-06-14 21:31:09 <Draakje> OS: Windows 7 HP, Client: puddinpop_cpu miner, Bitcoin version: 0.3.23-beta
3401 2011-06-14 21:31:14 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: https://twitter.com/#!/SecureTips/status/80710099118723073
3402 2011-06-14 21:31:48 larsivi has joined
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3404 2011-06-14 21:33:15 <Draakje> the wallet app gots 8 connections over 127000 (and counting) blocks
3405 2011-06-14 21:35:28 quellhorst has joined
3406 2011-06-14 21:36:16 <jrmithdobbs> Draakje: ?
3407 2011-06-14 21:36:17 jojamjimjob has joined
3408 2011-06-14 21:36:37 <jojamjimjob> anyone else gettin html instead of json with the mt gox api?
3409 2011-06-14 21:38:01 <Draakje> as far as i understood the mining system is that you install the bitcoin app.and a seperate mining app
3410 2011-06-14 21:38:33 <Draakje> the bitcoinapp is working correctly but the mining app is giving the error message
3411 2011-06-14 21:39:08 <sipa> Draakje: you must wait until you have all blocks
3412 2011-06-14 21:39:15 <sipa> there are currently ,,bc,blocks:
3413 2011-06-14 21:39:15 <gribble> 130839
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3415 2011-06-14 21:40:04 <upb> jrmithdobbs: he didnt post a dump on pastebin lol
3416 2011-06-14 21:40:16 <upb> probably got hacked
3417 2011-06-14 21:40:27 <jrmithdobbs> upb: lollin either way, not reading enough of that thread to find out what actually happened
3418 2011-06-14 21:40:32 <Draakje> okay so i'm over enthousiastic:P
3419 2011-06-14 21:40:39 _ui has left ()
3420 2011-06-14 21:41:31 <jojamjimjob> soo no one here useing the mt gox api?
3421 2011-06-14 21:42:05 ajf is now known as ajf|offline
3422 2011-06-14 21:43:06 <iz> jojamjimjob: i think the mtgox api is down rn, more info in #bitcoin-otc
3423 2011-06-14 21:44:17 <jojamjimjob> iz: thank you good sir
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3428 2011-06-14 21:48:09 <sipa> hmm, i assume -DFOURWAYSSE2 can safely be removed from the makefile
3429 2011-06-14 21:48:53 <tcatm> sipa: yep. I think the code has been removed a few weeks/months ago
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3434 2011-06-14 21:49:05 <gmaxwell> 13:17 <@jgarzik> phantomcircuit: signed updates are a security hole?
3435 2011-06-14 21:49:18 <sipa> tcatm: yes, it was removed in 0.3.21 or 22
3436 2011-06-14 21:49:28 <gmaxwell> People working with the tor folks have come up with an improved system for signed updates that you should look into.
3437 2011-06-14 21:49:40 tac-tics has joined
3438 2011-06-14 21:49:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, he was referring to DNS updates
3439 2011-06-14 21:49:55 <gmaxwell> oh sorry. lifo screws me again.
3440 2011-06-14 21:50:11 <phantomcircuit> either way his point is silly
3441 2011-06-14 21:50:29 <sipa> Draakje: also, unless you have a small army of high-end graphic cards, i suggest you to join a mining pool
3442 2011-06-14 21:51:22 fabianhjr has joined
3443 2011-06-14 21:51:26 <Draakje> I don't have a small army, just want to run it on my laptop
3444 2011-06-14 21:51:39 <jrmithdobbs> don't waste power
3445 2011-06-14 21:51:43 <fabianhjr> Is it just me or is the server getting slow?
3446 2011-06-14 21:51:56 <jrmithdobbs> yes the server is slow
3447 2011-06-14 21:51:57 <vegard> fees are enforced to prevent flooding of the network with small transactions, right? but (why) wouldn't it be possible to flood the network with big transactions? (by just sending back to yourself anyway) is the 10 minutes between each block like a barrier that stops you from moving more than your total amount of btc within (on average) 10 mins?
3448 2011-06-14 21:51:59 * jrmithdobbs facepalm
3449 2011-06-14 21:52:11 <Draakje> i'm planning to join an pool but then i get the error message
3450 2011-06-14 21:52:11 Lenovo01 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3451 2011-06-14 21:52:25 fmetro has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
3452 2011-06-14 21:52:28 Lenovo01 has joined
3453 2011-06-14 21:52:45 <sipa> Draakje: depending on what laptop you have, i'd advise you not to mine at all (or at least, not with the intention of making profit)
3454 2011-06-14 21:52:47 <fabianhjr> Well, on the plus side I am checking the cache and we got a new time high. 2.4K users at the same time. Can we beat it for next weak with at keast 5K?
3455 2011-06-14 21:52:52 <pierce> Draakje: if you spend 300 dollars, you could set up a system that would hash 1000 times faster than your laptop, so if you aren't using specialized hardware, you would be better off purchasing your own coins
3456 2011-06-14 21:53:01 <fabianhjr> 2.6K actually.
3457 2011-06-14 21:53:30 <ArtForz> vegard: each send would require the fee, at 0.0005 btc/kB thats a somewhat expensive flood...
3458 2011-06-14 21:53:43 sytse has joined
3459 2011-06-14 21:53:48 <vegard> ArtForz: but there's no fee if you send a big enough amount, right?
3460 2011-06-14 21:53:58 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3462 2011-06-14 21:54:18 <phantomcircuit> vegard, only for the first 27kb of transactions
3463 2011-06-14 21:54:22 <Draakje> Got an I5 M450 and a ATI HD5650 graphical card
3464 2011-06-14 21:54:24 <vegard> oh
3465 2011-06-14 21:54:37 bit_monger has joined
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3467 2011-06-14 21:55:00 <ArtForz> yup, I always forget the exact values
3468 2011-06-14 21:55:05 <fabianhjr> Also, coins must age or a fee will be required. So you must hold to them.
3469 2011-06-14 21:55:11 <fabianhjr> Older coins have priority.
3470 2011-06-14 21:55:38 <diki> ;;bc,stats
3471 2011-06-14 21:55:38 <ArtForz> that only really matters if you'Re not paying a fee though
3472 2011-06-14 21:55:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 130843 | Current Difficulty: 567358.22457067 | Next Difficulty At Block: 131039 | Next Difficulty In: 196 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 hours, 55 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 854038.27271406
3473 2011-06-14 21:55:54 <vegard> thanks, I see there's no problem at all.
3474 2011-06-14 21:56:06 <fabianhjr> We are always glad to help. :)
3475 2011-06-14 21:56:09 <jgarzik> I think we should increase free TX area from 27,000 bytes to 64k
3476 2011-06-14 21:56:13 <jgarzik> but haven't posted about that yet
3477 2011-06-14 21:56:18 foretarswig has joined
3478 2011-06-14 21:56:18 <ArtForz> hmmm, why?
3479 2011-06-14 21:56:35 <jgarzik> more room for free TX's. plenty of block reward to secure transactions right now
3480 2011-06-14 21:56:41 <ArtForz> true
3481 2011-06-14 21:56:48 sender555 has left ()
3482 2011-06-14 21:56:52 <jgarzik> and deepbit is running @ 100k free tx area anyway
3483 2011-06-14 21:57:02 <ArtForz> right
3484 2011-06-14 21:57:19 <fabianhjr> jgarzik: I disagree, it should be 32k, there must still be a fee.
3485 2011-06-14 21:57:34 <jgarzik> increasing free TX area changes nothing about fee
3486 2011-06-14 21:57:40 <ArtForz> yup
3487 2011-06-14 21:57:42 <fabianhjr> :P There is not enough volume.
3488 2011-06-14 21:57:46 Lenovo01 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3489 2011-06-14 21:57:49 <ArtForz> just means more free tx can get into each block
3490 2011-06-14 21:57:52 <jgarzik> yep
3491 2011-06-14 21:57:53 <fabianhjr> Everyone would get the free space.
3492 2011-06-14 21:58:16 <ArtForz> btw, weirdly enough fee-carrying tx also often occupy free tx space ;)
3493 2011-06-14 21:58:17 <phantomcircuit> fabianhjr, in theory yes, in practice no
3494 2011-06-14 21:58:24 <fabianhjr> I am checking block explorer and the average in fees is quite low.
3495 2011-06-14 21:58:27 <jgarzik> ArtForz: yeah
3496 2011-06-14 21:58:27 <sipa> fabianhjr: you have a point - but that's actually something that's up to miners to decide
3497 2011-06-14 21:58:33 <p0s> does the bitcoin client yet have code for auto-updating itself / notifying the user of critical updates?
3498 2011-06-14 21:58:45 <phantomcircuit> p0s, no
3499 2011-06-14 21:58:56 <fabianhjr> sipa: I know, and I am a mier so I am getting involved in getting a consensus.
3500 2011-06-14 21:58:57 <sipa> fabianhjr: as for normal nodes on the network, i prefer them to accept as much as possible
3501 2011-06-14 21:59:04 <fabianhjr> Though, it isn't needed.
3502 2011-06-14 21:59:21 <sipa> it's even up to individual miners to decidde
3503 2011-06-14 21:59:31 <fabianhjr> sipa: your HDD would be flodded if it wasn't because of this fees and limited space.
3504 2011-06-14 21:59:34 <ArtForz> well, I have the slight feeling that changing the free tx space wont affect things much
3505 2011-06-14 21:59:43 <p0s> then you shouldn't be worrying about minor stuff such as whether 27k or 64k is a reasonable value for TX limit. software which deals with millions of dollars should have code to notify the user of security vulnerabilities / updates.
3506 2011-06-14 21:59:48 <jgarzik> fees and the anti-spam relay policy have their place, but I also agree with [Tycho]: free TXs are good for bitcoin, they bring in new users. and 50 BTC is more than enough block reward to incentivize securing transactions.
3507 2011-06-14 21:59:50 <fabianhjr> It is a small gradual change.
3508 2011-06-14 21:59:55 <p0s> go implement an auto-updater or update-notification at least :)
3509 2011-06-14 22:00:40 <phantomcircuit> p0s, this is an open source project, if someone wants it they'll do it
3510 2011-06-14 22:00:44 <phantomcircuit> so far nobody seems to care
3511 2011-06-14 22:00:50 <jgarzik> fabianhjr: the anti-spam relay policy does more to prevent spam, than fees and limited space
3512 2011-06-14 22:00:52 <phantomcircuit> ps ill do it for a grand
3513 2011-06-14 22:01:01 <ArtForz> don't we already have the infrastructure for nitifactions for... ages?
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3515 2011-06-14 22:01:20 <fabianhjr> jgarzik: you have a point, though I am still worried about normal users getting out of space.
3516 2011-06-14 22:01:22 <sipa> yes
3517 2011-06-14 22:01:23 <jgarzik> what's that? a faction of people who do nothing but nitpick?
3518 2011-06-14 22:01:24 <jgarzik> :)
3519 2011-06-14 22:01:31 <ArtForz> tiny problem is only satoshi has the notification key *g*
3520 2011-06-14 22:01:32 <fabianhjr> Even if it is not directly SPAM.
3521 2011-06-14 22:01:40 <sipa> ArtForz: gavin has the key
3522 2011-06-14 22:01:47 <ArtForz> he does, finally!
3523 2011-06-14 22:02:32 <ArtForz> would be kinda useless otherwise
3524 2011-06-14 22:02:33 tandy80_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3525 2011-06-14 22:02:53 <pierce> ArtForz: sorry, I'm sure you get asked this a few hundred times per day, but do you ever intend to sell any of your gear?
3526 2011-06-14 22:03:02 <ArtForz> pierce: yes
3527 2011-06-14 22:03:37 muffinz has joined
3528 2011-06-14 22:03:55 <jgarzik> fee-paying TXs shouldn't exhaust free TX space, unless I'm missing something.
3529 2011-06-14 22:03:57 <pierce> what kind of price ranges / volume are you thinking? would be fun to get some small kits to play with, but I know people wanting to invest reasonable amounts in larger scale
3530 2011-06-14 22:04:05 <ArtForz> jgarzik: but they do
3531 2011-06-14 22:04:09 <jgarzik> hrm
3532 2011-06-14 22:04:12 Guest10739 has joined
3533 2011-06-14 22:04:20 <ArtForz> they get priority assigned and sit in the prio queue like every other tx
3534 2011-06-14 22:04:42 <ArtForz> so a large fee-carrying tx with high prio takes up a large chunk of free tx space
3535 2011-06-14 22:05:13 <ArtForz> and yes, imo thats probably not whats intended
3536 2011-06-14 22:05:16 <sipa> filling should be done the other way around
3537 2011-06-14 22:05:22 <fabianhjr> It is intended.
3538 2011-06-14 22:05:31 <fabianhjr> It was even documented as such.
3539 2011-06-14 22:05:38 <ArtForz> fabianhjr: where?
3540 2011-06-14 22:06:18 <fabianhjr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
3541 2011-06-14 22:06:32 <ArtForz> yes
3542 2011-06-14 22:06:37 <ArtForz> nicely describes what's implemented
3543 2011-06-14 22:07:17 <ArtForz> now, is that what was *intended*?
3544 2011-06-14 22:07:23 MC1984 has joined
3545 2011-06-14 22:08:01 <gmaxwell> The test should probably be N KB of free regardless of how much fee there is (at least up to some point, I suppose)
3546 2011-06-14 22:08:15 <upb> btw can non 'standard' transactions be made at all? i haven't gone over all the source related to this but i saw a function that tries to match the tx to two known patterns
3547 2011-06-14 22:08:18 <ArtForz> imo fee-carrying tx should first take up the 27-250kB space, *then* take the fee-less space
3548 2011-06-14 22:08:24 Guest10739 has quit (Client Quit)
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3550 2011-06-14 22:09:24 Zarutian has joined
3551 2011-06-14 22:09:31 <Wuked> what's the point of blkmon in pushpool ?
3552 2011-06-14 22:09:33 <jgarzik> ArtForz: agree
3553 2011-06-14 22:09:42 <fabianhjr> IMHO, the objective of the size limit is to keep the Chain from overgrowing too quickly. So, it would still be an option for fee carrying transactions to use the normal space.
3554 2011-06-14 22:09:43 <jgarzik> Wuked: new block notification, for long polling
3555 2011-06-14 22:09:51 * sipa should finish his proposal for new relay/mine fee rules
3556 2011-06-14 22:09:59 <Wuked> O.K thanks
3557 2011-06-14 22:10:07 <Wuked> did you see that stuff I wrote about v0.5 ?
3558 2011-06-14 22:10:16 <Wuked> can't get it to work at all
3559 2011-06-14 22:10:19 <Wuked> on 2 different systems
3560 2011-06-14 22:10:21 <Wuked> 0.4 works fine
3561 2011-06-14 22:10:48 <upb> strace/ltrace it
3562 2011-06-14 22:10:51 <jgarzik> ArtForz: satoshi was still tweaking fees when he disappeared... I'm not sure even he had a "best solution" in mind
3563 2011-06-14 22:10:58 WarDekar has joined
3564 2011-06-14 22:11:11 <jgarzik> a lot of this is guesswork, throwing darts at a board while blindfolded ;)
3565 2011-06-14 22:11:15 <WarDekar> is this or -mining the right channel for talking about mining dev?
3566 2011-06-14 22:11:22 ericmock has joined
3567 2011-06-14 22:11:24 <ArtForz> jgarzik: probably "whatever makes everyone complain equally loud"
3568 2011-06-14 22:11:28 <jgarzik> WarDekar: mainly #bitcoin-mining
3569 2011-06-14 22:11:31 <vegard> jrmithdobbs: finally got through all 14 pages, it seems he didn't post any unencrypted versions anywhere
3570 2011-06-14 22:11:33 <jgarzik> lol
3571 2011-06-14 22:11:56 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3572 2011-06-14 22:12:02 <gmaxwell> vegard: but he posted an encrypted version?
3573 2011-06-14 22:12:13 <fabianhjr> Well, I am quite sure the only thing we need to do is increase the fee-free space every time we reach an average of over 0.1 BTC fee per block.
3574 2011-06-14 22:12:39 <diki> I was wondering, if lulzsec wanted to hack bitcoin...can they do it?
3575 2011-06-14 22:12:39 <vegard> gmaxwell: as far as I could tell: not publicly, but to dropbox
3576 2011-06-14 22:12:50 <fabianhjr> diki: no
3577 2011-06-14 22:12:52 RBecker has joined
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3579 2011-06-14 22:13:02 zylche has joined
3580 2011-06-14 22:13:11 <diki> how so? if a pool reaches 50%...i didn't think it was possible, but if it's those guys...
3581 2011-06-14 22:13:33 <upb> they would probably just ddos the irc and the hardcoded nodes
3582 2011-06-14 22:13:39 <upb> juding from their behaviour heh
3583 2011-06-14 22:13:42 Draakje has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3584 2011-06-14 22:13:42 <fabianhjr> They need to buy over 5 million in ATI 6990s. And that is supposing they give them a wholesale deal.
3585 2011-06-14 22:13:48 <ArtForz> yup
3586 2011-06-14 22:13:53 <diki> or hack a pool?
3587 2011-06-14 22:14:00 <pierce> does anyone here know the feasibility of switching the hashing to something like sha3 when the time is right, or bumping keysizes on the wallet keys?
3588 2011-06-14 22:14:04 <ArtForz> not to mention they'd have to *sustain* that for long enough
3589 2011-06-14 22:14:15 <gmaxwell> upb: thats okay, we don't even notice when new users can't connect.
3590 2011-06-14 22:14:21 hereforfun has joined
3591 2011-06-14 22:14:23 <ArtForz> which is... nearly forever
3592 2011-06-14 22:14:25 <fabianhjr> pierce quite easy in fact.
3593 2011-06-14 22:14:27 <sipa> my idea: assign a badness score that is based on some rules relating to cost for the network, which takes 1. size, 2. number of signature verifications in outputs, 3. age, 4. amounts, 5. fee into account, and miners have a single parameter for tweaking which badness they allow at which position in a block
3594 2011-06-14 22:14:31 <fabianhjr> Dumping is already being done.
3595 2011-06-14 22:14:46 <gmaxwell> pierce: it can be done fairly easily, though the change will take a fair amount of leadtime.
3596 2011-06-14 22:14:47 <upb> gmaxwell: did you mean that with sarcasm ?:P
3597 2011-06-14 22:14:55 <spq> gmaxwell: we will definitely notice (hier in this chan ;)
3598 2011-06-14 22:14:55 <sipa> and transactions are only ever dropped from the memory pool when a memory limit is exceeded
3599 2011-06-14 22:15:04 <fabianhjr> sipa: Ok, what problem you want to tackle?
3600 2011-06-14 22:15:08 <pierce> gmaxwell: is that on the hashing and on the wallet keysizes?
3601 2011-06-14 22:15:10 <jgarzik> memory pool definitely needs some limits
3602 2011-06-14 22:15:29 <gmaxwell> spq: not really. I mean it's happened that the IRC server was unreasonable from big chunks of the internet and I was the only one whining for many hours.
3603 2011-06-14 22:15:34 <jgarzik> though the anti-spam policy solved it's immediate problem
3604 2011-06-14 22:15:36 <ArtForz> jgarzik: agreed
3605 2011-06-14 22:15:46 <MC1984> is bitcoin officially beta now?
3606 2011-06-14 22:15:51 <ArtForz> problem is we also use mem pool for "already seen, don't relay"
3607 2011-06-14 22:15:55 <diki> it was always beta
3608 2011-06-14 22:15:59 <jgarzik> MC1984: bitcoin has been beta it's entire lifetime
3609 2011-06-14 22:16:18 <sipa> fabianhjr: i want to replace all policy rules with something without exceptions
3610 2011-06-14 22:16:19 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3611 2011-06-14 22:16:29 <gmaxwell> pierce: changing addresses sizes may have more external issues.. e.g. apps with fixed sized fields. But it wouldn't be anything too terrible on the system. Fortunately bitcoin itself is a time service that can coordinate the changeover.
3612 2011-06-14 22:16:31 <fabianhjr> Oh ok, so that no one gets kicked out?
3613 2011-06-14 22:16:32 <sipa> fabianhjr: and give a parameter to miners
3614 2011-06-14 22:16:32 <ArtForz> eternal beta. hah, satoshi is secretly a google employee!
3615 2011-06-14 22:16:35 <MC1984> oh
3616 2011-06-14 22:16:37 <jgarzik> hah
3617 2011-06-14 22:17:01 <fabianhjr> lol
3618 2011-06-14 22:17:04 <MC1984> well thanks for the new version anyway
3619 2011-06-14 22:17:07 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|Sleep
3620 2011-06-14 22:17:08 hereforfun has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3621 2011-06-14 22:17:13 <MC1984> connection was getting hairy even with the port open :/
3622 2011-06-14 22:17:29 <ericmock> no Satoshi is Verbal Kint
3623 2011-06-14 22:17:34 <MC1984> so many natted peers have joined of late i have surmised
3624 2011-06-14 22:17:57 * fabianhjr goes and checks how TOR manages routing.
3625 2011-06-14 22:18:15 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, its fun to watch my node make 100 attempts before getting a connection.
3626 2011-06-14 22:18:27 hereforfun has joined
3627 2011-06-14 22:18:31 <sipa> did anyone ever realize that if you assume an exponential increase of disk storage for a given price at a fixed reliability rate, you can calculate how much it costs to store a certain amount of data *forever* ?
3628 2011-06-14 22:18:31 <gmaxwell> fabianhjr: tor has centeralized directories.
3629 2011-06-14 22:18:46 <fabianhjr> Oh, well. then it is not a place to look.
3630 2011-06-14 22:19:00 <MC1984> er i thought tor was totally decentralised
3631 2011-06-14 22:19:01 <fabianhjr> I guess they use the "tracker" equivalent of BT, right?
3632 2011-06-14 22:19:03 <MC1984> :/
3633 2011-06-14 22:19:16 <ericmock> sipa: and how much would that be?
3634 2011-06-14 22:19:16 <jgarzik> where's BlueMatt when you need him
3635 2011-06-14 22:19:30 <ericmock> for a given price that is
3636 2011-06-14 22:19:31 <pierce> MC1984: it does not need to use the central directories to operate if you are willing to point it at trusted nodes manually
3637 2011-06-14 22:19:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984: nah, it has multimaster directories run by independent trusted parties which vote on a consensus directory.
3638 2011-06-14 22:19:46 <jgarzik> TD's argument was pretty powerful. Leaning towards enabling UPNP by default.
3639 2011-06-14 22:20:10 <MC1984> .....hmm sounds like a job for captain DHT
3640 2011-06-14 22:20:17 <fabianhjr> Do we got a local peer discovery up yet?
3641 2011-06-14 22:20:27 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: if it's going to be built by default with that annoying makefile entry it might as well be on by default too
3642 2011-06-14 22:20:27 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3643 2011-06-14 22:20:30 lessPlastic has quit (Quit: lessPlastic)
3644 2011-06-14 22:20:30 <sipa> ericmock: 0.8*10^-10 dollar per byte, given certain assumptions
3645 2011-06-14 22:20:44 <sipa> ericmock: may be off by an order of magnitude based on which assumptions you make
3646 2011-06-14 22:20:44 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: current makefiles go away in 0.4, with autotools
3647 2011-06-14 22:20:46 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: and more connectable nodes is never a bad things
3648 2011-06-14 22:20:52 <gmaxwell> MC1984: er, no... the directories are pretty vulnerable to partitioning attacks. A normal DHT would be horiffic for that.
3649 2011-06-14 22:21:09 <jgarzik> DHT is vulnerable to sybil
3650 2011-06-14 22:21:33 <MC1984> would there be any decentralised directory tech suitable?
3651 2011-06-14 22:21:43 <gmaxwell> ha. Yes....
3652 2011-06-14 22:22:04 Taveren93HGK has joined
3653 2011-06-14 22:22:44 <pierce> MC1984: tor lets you set up "bridge nodes" easily enough, where if a friend is having trouble connecting to the network, you can introduce them to the network manually, and once they are on, they are set.
3654 2011-06-14 22:22:47 <MC1984> i thought DHT was a magical unicorn technology that could make you tea and feed the worlds poor
3655 2011-06-14 22:22:48 <MC1984> oh well
3656 2011-06-14 22:22:54 <gmaxwell> MC1984: Nakamoto hash chains, in fact. though it's a bit slow. Though the trusted majority tor uses currently isn't terrible.
3657 2011-06-14 22:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> oh hey dht again
3658 2011-06-14 22:23:09 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you and everyone else that comes in here, in fact. Which is bizarre.
3659 2011-06-14 22:23:33 <MC1984> gmaxwell probably because of the effect DHT has had on the bittorrent ecosystem
3660 2011-06-14 22:23:38 <gmaxwell> MC1984: all tor nodes need a pretty complete copy of the directory in any case, or you can identify nodes based on which subset of it that they have.
3661 2011-06-14 22:23:41 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: maybe we should just put the blockchain ..... IN THE CLOUD!!!!!1111ELEVN
3662 2011-06-14 22:23:47 * jrmithdobbs runs
3663 2011-06-14 22:23:52 <MC1984> YES THE CLOUD WILL SAVE US
3664 2011-06-14 22:23:54 dominiqu1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3665 2011-06-14 22:24:27 cenuij has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3666 2011-06-14 22:24:46 * jgarzik wonders how many fools think simply using Tor hides their bitcoin activity
3667 2011-06-14 22:24:56 <jrmithdobbs> actually, i wonder how badly bdb breaks if i put blk0001.dat, blkindex.dat, and addr.dat in idisk (soon to be icloud)
3668 2011-06-14 22:25:20 <jrmithdobbs> i have a feeling bdb would not like being on a webdav share
3669 2011-06-14 22:25:27 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3670 2011-06-14 22:25:50 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3671 2011-06-14 22:25:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: probably only a few more than people who think simply visiting bitcoin.org with tor hides their bitcoin activity.
3672 2011-06-14 22:26:12 mosimo has joined
3673 2011-06-14 22:26:27 <cronopio> jgarzik: and I2P too
3674 2011-06-14 22:26:32 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: you can implement fsync over [anything] if you try hard enough
3675 2011-06-14 22:26:36 aaa04 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3676 2011-06-14 22:27:01 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya i don't think apple's webdav stuff is quite that good though
3677 2011-06-14 22:27:07 <jgarzik> :)
3678 2011-06-14 22:27:18 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3679 2011-06-14 22:27:18 <MC1984> im just of the opinion that the whole point of these distributed projects is to reduce obvious point of coercion by, lets face it, uncle sam
3680 2011-06-14 22:27:33 <MC1984> i wish i understood more about how the netsukku project planne things
3681 2011-06-14 22:27:34 <jrmithdobbs> MC1984: #politics
3682 2011-06-14 22:27:54 <MC1984> christ let me speak
3683 2011-06-14 22:28:04 nower has joined
3684 2011-06-14 22:28:13 <pierce> it would be nice if the main client would give you a nice list of nodes you are currently connected to, instead of just the count. then the nodes could be rated up or down based on how the community trusts them etc
3685 2011-06-14 22:28:18 <gmaxwell> MC1984: don't mistake bittorrent's technopolitics with anyone elses.
3686 2011-06-14 22:28:37 <jgarzik> don't mistake this channel for -politics
3687 2011-06-14 22:28:38 <gmaxwell> pierce: trust of neighbors is mostly irrelevant.
3688 2011-06-14 22:28:57 andrew12_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3689 2011-06-14 22:29:03 <jrmithdobbs> pierce: there is a patch for rpc listconnections though
3690 2011-06-14 22:29:09 <jrmithdobbs> floating around somewhere on github
3691 2011-06-14 22:29:19 <jrmithdobbs> if you really want that data
3692 2011-06-14 22:29:27 hereforfun has joined
3693 2011-06-14 22:29:28 <gmaxwell> pierce: your neighbors can be badguys. If they're ALL badguys they can DOS you by not forwarding data... but thats about it.
3694 2011-06-14 22:29:46 Pinion has joined
3695 2011-06-14 22:30:00 <jrmithdobbs> well, they can do a few other things if they're ALL bad guys
3696 2011-06-14 22:30:03 <pierce> gmaxwell: ideally yes, but isn't that the whole thing that ioerror is running around about? hijacking everyone's node lists to delay btc payments
3697 2011-06-14 22:30:08 <jrmithdobbs> but the other things are non-trivial to pull off
3698 2011-06-14 22:30:21 Speeder has quit (Disconnected by services)
3699 2011-06-14 22:30:22 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: all *cooperating* bad guys
3700 2011-06-14 22:30:27 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: yes
3701 2011-06-14 22:30:41 <jgarzik> pierce: links?
3702 2011-06-14 22:30:44 original_speeder has joined
3703 2011-06-14 22:30:50 <jgarzik> pierce: I saw -zero- hard details from ioerror
3704 2011-06-14 22:30:58 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3705 2011-06-14 22:31:05 <jgarzik> pierce: just FUD, with nothing to show for it
3706 2011-06-14 22:31:16 <pierce> jgarzik: I just heard word of mouth, and ya, I know it's totally FUD
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3708 2011-06-14 22:31:59 <gmaxwell> pierce: the better solution to deadweight nodes is to simply rotate half of your connections, and prioritize the quiet ones for replacement.
3709 2011-06-14 22:32:00 <pierce> ioerror is not the most trusted source on these things :-) but the node connections could be a bit more transparent
3710 2011-06-14 22:32:11 <gmaxwell> pierce: ... why?
3711 2011-06-14 22:32:22 <gmaxwell> Use lsof if you need to troubleshoot.
3712 2011-06-14 22:32:37 abragin has quit ()
3713 2011-06-14 22:32:47 <pierce> yes, but I would like to be able to blacklist nodes that *I* think look scary, whatever looking scary means to me
3714 2011-06-14 22:33:08 hdon- has joined
3715 2011-06-14 22:33:25 <jrmithdobbs> pierce: there's really no reason
3716 2011-06-14 22:33:26 <pierce> just because I'm a control freak, not because there is some end of days attacks that will destroy the network forever etc
3717 2011-06-14 22:33:29 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3718 2011-06-14 22:34:02 kermit has joined
3719 2011-06-14 22:34:07 <gmaxwell> pierce: right, so you're asking for a feature which will allow underinformed paranoids (I'm not calling you names, really) to degrade the network.
3720 2011-06-14 22:34:10 <upb> lol @ the discussion in the stolen btc thread about proving he was really the owner of stolen funds
3721 2011-06-14 22:34:25 <upb> cant the guy just sign something with the 'address' key ?
3722 2011-06-14 22:34:44 <gmaxwell> upb: if he had software to do so.
3723 2011-06-14 22:34:54 <upb> noone has made such ?
3724 2011-06-14 22:35:01 <pierce> gmaxwell: I demand patches! :-D mostly just a fun idea, and I think it would add to the health of the network, but I see your point
3725 2011-06-14 22:35:38 robin has joined
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3727 2011-06-14 22:37:16 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik / sipa: you know if there's a reason EncodeBase58 uses mpi2bn instead of bin2bn? seems like there's code to work around mpi's funkiness (re: signedness) that could be completely avoided using BN_bin2bn instead ...
3728 2011-06-14 22:37:32 theboos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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3732 2011-06-14 22:40:17 <jrmithdobbs> same with CBignum's setvch/constructors
3733 2011-06-14 22:40:50 <jrmithdobbs> err actually i guess CBignum does it to deal with signedness (though I can't actually find any instances in the code where a negative number is being turned into a bignum)
3734 2011-06-14 22:40:58 BlueMatt has joined
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3739 2011-06-14 22:41:46 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> where's BlueMatt when you need him <jgarzik> TD's argument re UPNP is pretty powerful
3740 2011-06-14 22:42:00 <BlueMatt> whats that now?
3741 2011-06-14 22:42:03 andrew12 has joined
3742 2011-06-14 22:42:19 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: UPNP should enabled because everybody else already does so
3743 2011-06-14 22:42:21 diki has quit ()
3744 2011-06-14 22:42:35 <gmaxwell> Hm. Mmmm. so lets assume 2400 listening nodes * 117 net-inbound max / 8 connections for each non-listening node.. = 35100; ... there are 23782 hosts on lfnet right now.
3745 2011-06-14 22:42:46 <gmaxwell> That doesn't sound so good.
3746 2011-06-14 22:43:02 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3747 2011-06-14 22:43:15 <jrmithdobbs> not at all
3748 2011-06-14 22:43:16 <gmaxwell> ^ There is another UPNP argument.
3749 2011-06-14 22:43:20 <jgarzik> yep
3750 2011-06-14 22:43:54 <gmaxwell> We're going to be almost out of connections if we don't. Though I dunno if 2400 is currently accurate. I don't really think there are even that many.
3751 2011-06-14 22:44:06 RBecker has joined
3752 2011-06-14 22:44:10 <BlueMatt> how many what, listening nodes?
3753 2011-06-14 22:44:18 <gmaxwell> Yes. Right now.
3754 2011-06-14 22:44:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: actually it's worse than that
3755 2011-06-14 22:44:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you're not factoring in the irc channel split patch
3756 2011-06-14 22:44:42 <tcatm> My scan resulted in 5210 listening nodes (over 3 days)
3757 2011-06-14 22:44:45 <BlueMatt> oh...one sec let me look that up in my db which should be just slightly low
3758 2011-06-14 22:44:54 <gmaxwell> tcatm: sure but at one time?
3759 2011-06-14 22:45:28 <gmaxwell> I think I've only been able to connect to about 1900 nodes at once.
3760 2011-06-14 22:45:54 <BlueMatt> I show 3924
3761 2011-06-14 22:46:06 <BlueMatt> and each node which accepts incoming is checked min once/hour
3762 2011-06-14 22:46:09 WakiMiko has joined
3763 2011-06-14 22:46:38 <gmaxwell> okay. so 3924 and you get version to make sure they are bitcoin and not just some stupid port that answers and hangs up?
3764 2011-06-14 22:46:46 <tcatm> BlueMatt: is that list available somewhere?
3765 2011-06-14 22:46:48 <BlueMatt> yep
3766 2011-06-14 22:46:55 dominiqu1 has joined
3767 2011-06-14 22:46:57 <ericmock> is an older version of miniupnp needed to compile bitcoin? net.cpp seems to have 'too few arguments' for upnpDiscover defined in the header
3768 2011-06-14 22:47:10 <BlueMatt> tcatm: well you can dig @ns1.bluematt.me dnsseed.bitcoin.bit...or checkout the dnsseed software from my github
3769 2011-06-14 22:47:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, it only adds to db if it gets version response
3770 2011-06-14 22:47:32 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: latest stable not the latest dev snapshot
3771 2011-06-14 22:47:38 md2k7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3772 2011-06-14 22:47:42 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: dev snapshots are any with dates in the version string
3773 2011-06-14 22:47:50 <ericmock> ah, gotcha...
3774 2011-06-14 22:48:03 <gmaxwell> okay, so assuming 3924 is 57388 ... so we're still 67.7% full.
3775 2011-06-14 22:48:11 <ericmock> strange that they don't increment the version number
3776 2011-06-14 22:48:19 <gmaxwell> or there abouts (big error bounds on this number)
3777 2011-06-14 22:48:29 james has joined
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3779 2011-06-14 22:48:45 <BlueMatt> anyway, yes jgarzik I totally agree upnp should be 100% on by default, maybe not even an option, maybe only via cli/bitcoin.conf...it was done this way only because the vote that was on the forums was strongly against upnp by default
3780 2011-06-14 22:48:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: then factor in that listening node advertisements for bootstrapping are split across 100 channels
3781 2011-06-14 22:48:55 james is now known as Guest23990
3782 2011-06-14 22:48:59 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
3783 2011-06-14 22:49:12 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3784 2011-06-14 22:49:21 <BlueMatt> but my original argument that accepting incoming is bad for individuals but better for the network than it is bad for individuals still stands and thus I still vote for upnp by default
3785 2011-06-14 22:49:22 <gmaxwell> I imagine that part of the node connectivity problems are probably running out of ports on the network then too, at least at unlucky times of day, bad irc channel balances.
3786 2011-06-14 22:49:57 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I bet lots of listeners are only in the old channel too.
3787 2011-06-14 22:50:11 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3788 2011-06-14 22:50:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: but at least once they get one they'll learn more nodes from it.
3789 2011-06-14 22:50:22 <gmaxwell> So it's not that bad.
3790 2011-06-14 22:50:31 <BlueMatt> in any case, Im getting off, and to answer your response jgarzik I dont know for sure what does/doesnt make upnp on by default, but Id be willing to bet many simple-ui ones, like skype, do
3791 2011-06-14 22:51:53 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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3795 2011-06-14 22:51:59 <gmaxwell> you could create an incentive for this by giving preferred relaying to nodes that you connected to (vs connected to you)
3796 2011-06-14 22:52:18 <gmaxwell> so you could honestly tell people that accepting connections will improve your service.
3797 2011-06-14 22:52:49 <gmaxwell> There are reasonable stability grounds to do that on too. A attacker has an easier job connecting to people than getting people to connect to it.
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3811 2011-06-14 23:01:10 <ericmock> Woot! Compiled! Now just to get it to link....
3812 2011-06-14 23:01:24 `marianne` has joined
3813 2011-06-14 23:02:16 <`marianne`> hiya :) i was wondering if there was any way to see how many mhashes i'm getting? my graphics driver is behaving... oddly... and i want to be sure it's not slowing stuff down
3814 2011-06-14 23:02:37 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3815 2011-06-14 23:02:55 <directhex> your miner, and pool (if you use one) should both report a rate
3816 2011-06-14 23:03:11 plbk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3817 2011-06-14 23:03:44 <`marianne`> ok, thanks :) i've just started the software (for the first time), it's still downloading all the blocks... 107000 so far hehe
3818 2011-06-14 23:03:50 <jrmithdobbs> `marianne`: #bitcoin-mining will be more helpful with that kind of question btw
3819 2011-06-14 23:03:56 <LameArse> What miner do you reccomend for ubuntu for a AMD 8570?
3820 2011-06-14 23:04:13 skeledrew has joined
3821 2011-06-14 23:04:33 <LameArse> 5870*
3822 2011-06-14 23:04:42 <`marianne`> thanks jrmithdobbs :) i tried in there but i guess it's a bit hectic, don't think anyone saw my question
3823 2011-06-14 23:05:19 kfr has joined
3824 2011-06-14 23:05:20 <jrmithdobbs> LameArse: #bitcoin-mining will be able to help you out
3825 2011-06-14 23:05:42 <jrmithdobbs> accounts payable this is nina speaking, JUST a moment ...
3826 2011-06-14 23:05:43 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
3827 2011-06-14 23:05:47 <GarrettB> anyone here use gpg on windows?
3828 2011-06-14 23:06:10 <directhex> GarrettB: only within thunderbird. mostly, anyway. i use it to back up my wallet securely
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3846 2011-06-14 23:13:24 <jrmithdobbs> btw
3847 2011-06-14 23:13:33 <jrmithdobbs> looking at my auth.log on my public node
3848 2011-06-14 23:13:52 <jrmithdobbs> there's been an marked increase in ssh failed root logins in the last few days
3849 2011-06-14 23:14:03 <jrmithdobbs> almost garauntee that's how that guy that lost 25k btc lost his
3850 2011-06-14 23:14:14 <cacheson> jrmithdobbs: wasn't he running windows?
3851 2011-06-14 23:14:33 <jrmithdobbs> was he? thought he said he had it running in a ubuntu vm on top of windows
3852 2011-06-14 23:14:41 <phantomcircuit> he was running windows
3853 2011-06-14 23:14:51 <cacheson> he said he planned to move to a VM, I think
3854 2011-06-14 23:14:51 <jrmithdobbs> well nm
3855 2011-06-14 23:14:51 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, that hardly makes a difference lol
3856 2011-06-14 23:15:09 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3857 2011-06-14 23:15:20 <midnightmagic> WHOAH!
3858 2011-06-14 23:15:23 <jrmithdobbs> i love all these password failures on a machine that only accepts gssapi and pubkey auth though
3859 2011-06-14 23:15:28 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3860 2011-06-14 23:15:31 <midnightmagic> https://twitter.com/#!/wikileaks/status/80774521350668288
3861 2011-06-14 23:15:56 <jrmithdobbs> no surprise
3862 2011-06-14 23:16:05 <jrmithdobbs> tho they're not anonymous and that's a bad idea.
3863 2011-06-14 23:16:18 * upb hits up blockexplorer
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3866 2011-06-14 23:17:51 <midnightmagic> i see no problem with using the donating address, but yeah, it's not some magical anonymous thing. maybe if you mine, and the mined coins are pristine and delivered directly to them. But the implication in that tweet is that the donation itself it anonymous, blanket statement.
3867 2011-06-14 23:17:53 <GarrettB> jrmithdobbs: why is it a bad idea?
3868 2011-06-14 23:17:58 Incitatus has joined
3869 2011-06-14 23:18:18 <jrmithdobbs> GarrettB: "they" can tell who donated.
3870 2011-06-14 23:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> "they" not being wikileaks.
3871 2011-06-14 23:18:56 somuchwin has joined
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3873 2011-06-14 23:19:45 Cusipzzz has joined
3874 2011-06-14 23:20:01 <ericmock> what's the -mt postfix on boost indicate?
3875 2011-06-14 23:20:26 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
3876 2011-06-14 23:20:44 <sipa> multithreaded?
3877 2011-06-14 23:20:46 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: multithreaded
3878 2011-06-14 23:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> and that you're on fedora/centos/rhel
3879 2011-06-14 23:21:08 <ericmock> darwin
3880 2011-06-14 23:21:13 <ericmock> thx
3881 2011-06-14 23:21:30 cenuij has joined
3882 2011-06-14 23:22:06 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: use makefile.osx
3883 2011-06-14 23:22:13 <jrmithdobbs> and you shouldn't have to worry about that stuff
3884 2011-06-14 23:22:17 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
3885 2011-06-14 23:22:26 <GarrettB> jrmithdobbs: and what're 'they' gonna do about it
3886 2011-06-14 23:22:53 <jrmithdobbs> GarrettB: the same thing 'they' are doing currently to people who can be identified as assisting manning/wikileaks?
3887 2011-06-14 23:22:58 Leo_II has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3888 2011-06-14 23:23:03 <GarrettB> jrmithdobbs: what's that?
3889 2011-06-14 23:23:06 <GarrettB> I'm not caught up
3890 2011-06-14 23:23:16 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3891 2011-06-14 23:23:18 <jrmithdobbs> GarrettB: everyone's getting subpoenaed
3892 2011-06-14 23:23:18 <upb> 'they' == the reptilians ?
3893 2011-06-14 23:23:18 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
3894 2011-06-14 23:23:25 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3895 2011-06-14 23:23:32 <ericmock> jrmithdobbs: I am... and I wish it were that easy ;-)
3896 2011-06-14 23:23:33 GarrettB has left ()
3897 2011-06-14 23:23:53 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: if you want a usable binary that's not going to throw up a bunch of useless assertion errors
3898 2011-06-14 23:24:01 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: follow the build instructions for mac in the doc/ dir
3899 2011-06-14 23:24:09 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: don't bother building against macports.
3900 2011-06-14 23:24:13 glassresistor has joined
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3902 2011-06-14 23:24:30 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: I just saved you hours of frustration ;P
3903 2011-06-14 23:24:51 <ericmock> future frustration anyway
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3905 2011-06-14 23:25:09 <jrmithdobbs> well ya, the build is still annoying in itself
3906 2011-06-14 23:25:32 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: oh, you can use boost/miniupnpc from ports, but *do not* use the wx from ports
3907 2011-06-14 23:25:55 <jrmithdobbs> it's broken as fuck
3908 2011-06-14 23:26:19 <ericmock> okay... was not aware of that... although I did realize that 2.8 didn't work
3909 2011-06-14 23:26:21 pyros1 has joined
3910 2011-06-14 23:26:42 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: the -devel has 2.9 but to get something usable you'll have to hack it's portfile
3911 2011-06-14 23:27:01 <jrmithdobbs> and the dylibs are fucked up and have the wrong path in their meta data so you have to fix your resulting binary
3912 2011-06-14 23:27:02 <ericmock> yea, I installed the -devel version
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3914 2011-06-14 23:27:19 <jrmithdobbs> and even if you do all that you will get a bunch of wx assertion popup boxes on gui load
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3916 2011-06-14 23:27:32 <ericmock> there's nothing about building for osx in the docs directory I have...
3917 2011-06-14 23:27:38 <jrmithdobbs> so just build it as described in the build doc for mac in docs/
3918 2011-06-14 23:27:43 <ericmock> should be latest from sourceforge
3919 2011-06-14 23:27:54 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: doc/build-osx.txt
3920 2011-06-14 23:28:02 <ericmock> oh, yea, got that...
3921 2011-06-14 23:28:06 <ericmock> not in doc
3922 2011-06-14 23:28:19 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: pull from github i have no idea what's in the source tarballs on sf
3923 2011-06-14 23:28:23 <ericmock> thought you were talking about something else
3924 2011-06-14 23:28:35 <jrmithdobbs> sounds like jgarzik/gavin (forget who has sf access) needs to fix that
3925 2011-06-14 23:28:41 <jrmithdobbs> oh it is there?
3926 2011-06-14 23:28:51 <ericmock> yea, it's in the base dir
3927 2011-06-14 23:29:09 <ericmock> I thought you were talking about something different
3928 2011-06-14 23:29:09 Cusipzzz has joined
3929 2011-06-14 23:29:29 <ericmock> I was following that (with macports stuff interspersed)
3930 2011-06-14 23:29:41 p0s- has joined
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3932 2011-06-14 23:30:01 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: should be ok so long as you don't use wx from ports
3933 2011-06-14 23:30:20 <ericmock> in fact, my whole reason for compiling this is to work to get rid of wx (at least for osx)
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3935 2011-06-14 23:30:48 <ericmock> although I suppose I ought find out if that's an ongoing effort...
3936 2011-06-14 23:31:04 <jrmithdobbs> there's been some work on changing to qt
3937 2011-06-14 23:31:06 <jrmithdobbs> don't know status
3938 2011-06-14 23:31:45 <ericmock> wx = qt = ugly (imo(
3939 2011-06-14 23:31:59 <jrmithdobbs> qt is better than wx at least
3940 2011-06-14 23:32:10 <ericmock> true true
3941 2011-06-14 23:32:23 <jrmithdobbs> if you're looking to do a cocoa-native ui I wish you the best of luck
3942 2011-06-14 23:32:34 <ericmock> why?
3943 2011-06-14 23:32:42 <ericmock> been tried?
3944 2011-06-14 23:32:45 <jrmithdobbs> because I would love one
3945 2011-06-14 23:32:54 <jrmithdobbs> not to my knowledge
3946 2011-06-14 23:32:55 <ericmock> oh, I was reading sarcasm...
3947 2011-06-14 23:33:02 <ericmock> well, that's the plan
3948 2011-06-14 23:33:15 <jrmithdobbs> maybe a little bit, but you'll figure out why once you start digging through the gui code ;P
3949 2011-06-14 23:33:54 <ericmock> yea, looking at some of that code made me assume the sarcasm
3950 2011-06-14 23:34:26 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3951 2011-06-14 23:35:53 mmyjona has joined
3952 2011-06-14 23:35:59 <ericmock> and the fact that I don't know C++ isn't going to help ;-)
3953 2011-06-14 23:37:08 agricocb has joined
3954 2011-06-14 23:40:50 <luke-jr> ericmock: Spesmilo
3955 2011-06-14 23:41:05 <luke-jr> ericmock: Qt is native on Mac, so not ugly..
3956 2011-06-14 23:41:21 combo has joined
3957 2011-06-14 23:42:08 <jrmithdobbs> anyone know what LPdir_unix.c in openssl is used for?
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3966 2011-06-14 23:58:41 <Wuked> does wallet.dat contain everything I need to move my bitcoin wallet from one machine to another ?
3967 2011-06-14 23:59:11 <Wuked> and should I always shutdown bitcoin before moving the file ?
3968 2011-06-14 23:59:21 <Wuked> or run backupwallet and then move the backup file ?
3969 2011-06-14 23:59:39 Eisenaxt has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)