1 2011-06-18 00:00:16 <jimrandomh> XX01XX: No, the point is that neither device has the private key, but together they have information that can be used to compute the key
   2 2011-06-18 00:00:18 <Moussekateer> thank you very much ius, been looking for ages
   3 2011-06-18 00:00:31 <luke-jr> jimrandomh: also, "I've sent your wallet to my owner; give me the password and plug in your crypto device, if you want 50% returned to you; otherwise you'll never see any of it again"
   4 2011-06-18 00:00:31 nocreativenick1 has quit (Client Quit)
   5 2011-06-18 00:00:35 <ius> Moussekateer: That and numpy is what you need iirc
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   8 2011-06-18 00:00:57 <Moussekateer> Yep I have that already I think thanks
   9 2011-06-18 00:00:58 <jimrandomh> luke-jr: You make backups, as before
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  11 2011-06-18 00:01:24 <XX01XX> jimrandomh... There's no reason people who require that level of protection couldn't do it on their own.
  12 2011-06-18 00:01:30 <ius> And thanks for the hint, *git pull*
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  14 2011-06-18 00:02:14 <XX01XX> For other users, that just another thing they have to worry about getting broken and losing access to their wallet
  15 2011-06-18 00:02:17 <jimrandomh> No, implementing that level of protection is *very hard*. I don't think anyone doing it on their own is significantly easier than adding it as a feature to the official client.
  16 2011-06-18 00:02:32 jostmey has left ()
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  18 2011-06-18 00:03:04 <jimrandomh> http://lesswrong.com/lw/5rg/homomorphic_encryption_and_bitcoin/
  19 2011-06-18 00:03:10 <XX01XX> You're adding features to the official client to deal with a problem with a particular use of the protocol.
  20 2011-06-18 00:03:59 <XX01XX> if you're using the protocol a particular way... get clients that are specialized for that particular use, I'd say.
  21 2011-06-18 00:04:01 <jimrandomh> Basically, there's a way to have two devices cooperatively generate a receiving address, such that the only way to send coins received through that address is by having both devices use their private keys, in a protocol such that neither device can redirect the coins if it's compromised.
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  24 2011-06-18 00:04:46 <sipa> just give half of the private key to each
  25 2011-06-18 00:05:11 <XX01XX> jimrandomh... or you could have a specialized client that would generate fractional keys for as many different devices as you like and everyone that doesn't need that could not have to worry about it.
  26 2011-06-18 00:05:22 <jimrandomh> That's the basic idea, but the hard part is generating the private key without there being a window in which the whole thing is stored on one device and can be stolen
  27 2011-06-18 00:05:52 <XX01XX> Why are you still receiving transactions on a compromised device?
  28 2011-06-18 00:06:16 <jimrandomh> People's computers are compromised without their knowledge. It happens all the time.
  29 2011-06-18 00:06:41 <XX01XX> And if you put enough value into the system you propose peoples computers AND phones would be compromised without their knowledge...
  30 2011-06-18 00:07:12 <jimrandomh> Compromising a computer and a phone belonging to the same user is *much* harder than compromising just one
  31 2011-06-18 00:07:39 <gmaxwell> jimrandomh: you know you can build ECC keys in escrow, right?
  32 2011-06-18 00:08:16 hahuang65 has quit ()
  33 2011-06-18 00:08:16 <jimrandomh> Doesn't that require trusting a third party with your key?
  34 2011-06-18 00:08:17 <XX01XX> I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just saying I don't see why it needs to be in the official client.
  35 2011-06-18 00:08:34 <md2k7> you could as well download a live disk, burn it to cd, then have your keys generated while the system is offline
  36 2011-06-18 00:08:43 <XX01XX> other than "I want someone else to do this thing."
  37 2011-06-18 00:08:43 <md2k7> that should minimize the risks even for the most paranoid
  38 2011-06-18 00:08:52 <gmaxwell> e.g. You can have Apriv, Apub  give me Apub and I can make Bpub,secret  such that Apriv+secret signs for Bpub...
  39 2011-06-18 00:08:53 <gavinandresen> jimrandomh: I almost posted a brain dump on implementing split private keys to the bitcoin-development list earlier today.  Good Idea.
  40 2011-06-18 00:08:58 hahuang65 has joined
  41 2011-06-18 00:09:18 <gmaxwell> jimrandomh: no, no trust required.
  42 2011-06-18 00:09:50 <gmaxwell> jimrandomh: go look at how an ECC public key is generated from a private key and its should be clear enough to you. :)
  43 2011-06-18 00:10:40 <gmaxwell> I was planning on making a program based on this so webservers could have infinite one off keys for paymets without a compromise of the server allowing someone to get private keys, and without having to precompute and preload public keys on the webserver.
  44 2011-06-18 00:10:46 <gmaxwell> I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
  45 2011-06-18 00:10:59 <jimrandomh> Ah, interesting
  46 2011-06-18 00:11:10 <gmaxwell> (and was hoping that jrmithdobbs would finish his external key generator code, which would be 90% of the work. ;) )
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  49 2011-06-18 00:13:32 <jimrandomh> It might be a good idea to announce that split keys are planned before the media loses interest in that theft that happened recently
  50 2011-06-18 00:14:32 <gavinandresen> jimrandomh: they're not planned yet.  There is not even a concrete proposal written down...
  51 2011-06-18 00:14:57 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: you willing to write up a concrete proposal?
  52 2011-06-18 00:15:51 <gmaxwell> I might have some cycles to do that tomorrow.
  53 2011-06-18 00:16:00 alystair has joined
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  55 2011-06-18 00:16:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: if you do, thanks.  I was thinking of pinging Hal and ByteCoin for ideas, but it sounds like you have a good idea.
  56 2011-06-18 00:17:34 oxba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  57 2011-06-18 00:17:42 <jimrandomh> It might be worth pinging them anyways, to maximize the idea-count
  58 2011-06-18 00:18:06 <gmaxwell> bytecoin knows how to do this too. The fact that he mentioned that you could do a secure vanity key service is what made me realize that it was possible.
  59 2011-06-18 00:18:27 <phantomcircuit> is it just me or has the rate at which blocks are generated grown to > 10 minutes on average
  60 2011-06-18 00:18:35 <gmaxwell> (I didn't think it was at first then I stepped through the math and realizedthat it was)
  61 2011-06-18 00:19:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: Reading the lesswrong comments... wouldn't a new CHECK_MULTISIG transaction type be more secure?
  62 2011-06-18 00:20:37 <gavinandresen> ... because you could have devices A and B sign a transaction independently.   Homomorphic means either A or B does the final signing, which seems like a weakness.
  63 2011-06-18 00:21:29 taub has quit (Quit: Thrashing all deceivers, Mashing non-believers, Never ending potency)
  64 2011-06-18 00:22:00 <gmaxwell> A multisig txn requires special prep by the sender. While you could recieve to an 'esrowed key' without any special prep. Otherwise.. um multisig requires more data. in the block chain.
  65 2011-06-18 00:22:15 <gmaxwell> they have partially overlapping use cases I think.
  66 2011-06-18 00:23:45 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  67 2011-06-18 00:23:47 <gmaxwell> would be sort of interesting to do a multisig with a password based determinstic key  "lock funds"
  68 2011-06-18 00:24:43 <gmaxwell> but as I've cautioned elsewhere: For most uses most of the time loss is a bigger risk than theft. Theft is sexy so we'll obsess over it, but we need to be careful that anti-theft doesn't cause more harm through loss.
  69 2011-06-18 00:24:47 <gmaxwell> bbl
  70 2011-06-18 00:25:27 <phantomcircuit> ARGH
  71 2011-06-18 00:25:32 <phantomcircuit> hasn't been a block in 25 minutes
  72 2011-06-18 00:25:33 <phantomcircuit> wtf
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  79 2011-06-18 00:32:55 <jimrandomh> There should probably be a guide telling people how to put encrypted wallets on Dropbox so they won't get lost
  80 2011-06-18 00:33:13 <phantomcircuit> except that drop box sucks
  81 2011-06-18 00:33:27 <jimrandomh> Well, some competitor to Dropbox, then
  82 2011-06-18 00:33:42 <jimrandomh> (If there were a guide, I'd have known that)
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  84 2011-06-18 00:34:48 <jimrandomh> Actually - I notice the client doesn't currently have an option to customize the wallet file location
  85 2011-06-18 00:35:19 <jimrandomh> that makes doing things like keeping it in synced services, or in TrueCrypt volumes, harder than it needs to be
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  87 2011-06-18 00:36:27 <phantomcircuit> zomg
  88 2011-06-18 00:36:33 <phantomcircuit> i demand a block is mined
  89 2011-06-18 00:36:36 <phantomcircuit> immediately!
  90 2011-06-18 00:37:06 <phantomcircuit> jimrandomh, there is an rpc call to backup the wallet to a specific location
  91 2011-06-18 00:37:34 <ZOP> there's also a command line option to specify the data directory, though that does also specify where to keep the block index and block database right now too.
  92 2011-06-18 00:37:57 * luke-jr just uses HOME=/path/to/foo/bar bitcoind -daemon
  93 2011-06-18 00:39:35 wasabi1 has joined
  94 2011-06-18 00:39:56 <phantomcircuit> ok so this is a problem
  95 2011-06-18 00:40:01 <phantomcircuit> the mining difficulty jumped
  96 2011-06-18 00:40:15 <phantomcircuit> and the miners turned off their rigs because the marginal cost wasn't there
  97 2011-06-18 00:40:19 Teslah has joined
  98 2011-06-18 00:40:21 <phantomcircuit> marginal revenue*
  99 2011-06-18 00:40:31 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 100 2011-06-18 00:40:34 <phantomcircuit> so now we're stuck with > 10 minute block times
 101 2011-06-18 00:41:31 necrodearia has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 102 2011-06-18 00:41:34  has joined
 103 2011-06-18 00:42:56 <ZOP> it'll adjust back down if it stays this way.
 104 2011-06-18 00:42:56 bgroff has joined
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 106 2011-06-18 00:43:16 th3sl33p3r_ is now known as th3sl33p3r
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 109 2011-06-18 00:44:37 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 110 2011-06-18 00:45:14 <wasabi1> Can't believe how long I've been struggling with this.
 111 2011-06-18 00:46:01 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 112 2011-06-18 00:46:05 groffer has joined
 113 2011-06-18 00:46:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: rather, at least some portion moved to namecoin becauseit was more profitable
 114 2011-06-18 00:46:59 <phantomcircuit> i find that extremely unlikely
 115 2011-06-18 00:47:02 <phantomcircuit> but whatever
 116 2011-06-18 00:47:29 <samr7> IIRC their difficulty shot up from like 15000 to 55000
 117 2011-06-18 00:47:49 <gmaxwell> samr7: it's been hitting the 4x rail.
 118 2011-06-18 00:48:56 <gmaxwell> http://dot-bit.org/tools/nextDifficulty.php
 119 2011-06-18 00:49:21 <samr7> wow
 120 2011-06-18 00:49:40 r2k_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 121 2011-06-18 00:49:48 <Geebus> site should be back up
 122 2011-06-18 00:50:28 <samr7> that's still $30 to register a name
 123 2011-06-18 00:50:36 El-Loco has quit ()
 124 2011-06-18 00:51:25  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-25-81.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
 125 2011-06-18 00:52:00 <gmaxwell> samr7: sure, because it's a goldrush. the price goes down over time.
 126 2011-06-18 00:52:09 <samr7> wait my math is wrong, closer to $20, guess that's better
 127 2011-06-18 00:52:10 eao has joined
 128 2011-06-18 00:53:20 <ZOP> i watched a bunch of people jump onto the namecoin wagon, block rate over there went sky high heh.
 129 2011-06-18 00:54:58 rationalOgre has left ("Leaving")
 130 2011-06-18 00:55:01 <gmaxwell> anyways, looks like namecoin has about 700GH on it.
 131 2011-06-18 00:55:31 <samr7> wow!
 132 2011-06-18 00:55:51 Evious has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 133 2011-06-18 00:56:08 ezl_ has joined
 134 2011-06-18 00:56:09 <ZOP> yeah it went from like 3-4 hrs to generate a block @ 340MH/s to....idk what it is now but probably close to a week lol
 135 2011-06-18 00:57:02 LtBrenton has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 136 2011-06-18 00:57:39 necrodearia has joined
 137 2011-06-18 00:58:17 <midnightmagic> Namecoin btc value is hovering basically right around where it's equivalent to mining effort ratio. But it's skyrocketing up to 1.8x or more after that. Hilarious.
 138 2011-06-18 00:58:27 <ius> gmaxwell: Hmm. The vanity-address secure pubkey generation scheme was interesting, but I don't see how it aids in implementing 'split keys' (if I got a correct notion of those)
 139 2011-06-18 00:59:36 wolfspraul has joined
 140 2011-06-18 00:59:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: the exchange has been moving every difficulty step. you've got me.
 141 2011-06-18 01:00:18 <jimrandomh> ius: It means you can use a third party to handle the coordination between the two clients
 142 2011-06-18 01:00:26 eoss has joined
 143 2011-06-18 01:00:45 <gmaxwell> ius: it lets you create a keypair where no one party has ever held the private key.
 144 2011-06-18 01:00:46 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 145 2011-06-18 01:01:22 JRWR has joined
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 148 2011-06-18 01:01:34 <gmaxwell> (and then later obtain it by combining the private parts)
 149 2011-06-18 01:01:40 TheZimm is now known as TheZimm|away
 150 2011-06-18 01:01:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: nice, didn't read anything, but i see how it's possible :)
 151 2011-06-18 01:02:12 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
 152 2011-06-18 01:02:13 DrewSJ has quit (Quit: Man who run behind car get exhausted)
 153 2011-06-18 01:05:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, interesting, how?
 154 2011-06-18 01:07:01 <phantomcircuit> no block for 45 minutes, then 3 in 5
 155 2011-06-18 01:07:06 <phantomcircuit> WTF ENTROPY
 156 2011-06-18 01:07:30 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,nethash] 45m
 157 2011-06-18 01:07:31 <gribble> 6.17606124154e-06
 158 2011-06-18 01:07:36 <sipa> :o
 159 2011-06-18 01:07:48 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,nethash] 1.6m
 160 2011-06-18 01:07:49 <gribble> Error: '1.6m' is not a valid argument.
 161 2011-06-18 01:07:54 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,nethash] 2m
 162 2011-06-18 01:07:55 <gribble> 2.74492420682e-07
 163 2011-06-18 01:08:05 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
 164 2011-06-18 01:08:06 <gribble> 8618.2851087533218
 165 2011-06-18 01:08:06 darkmethod has joined
 166 2011-06-18 01:08:08 <sipa> ah
 167 2011-06-18 01:08:27 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you generate a keypair. Give me the public key. I add (over the field) the ec point secret more times. Resulting in a new public key, with a private key original_private+secret.
 168 2011-06-18 01:08:46 <phantomcircuit> oh snap
 169 2011-06-18 01:08:46 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [calc 1000000*[bc,nethash]] 2m
 170 2011-06-18 01:08:47 <phantomcircuit> that's neat
 171 2011-06-18 01:08:47 <gribble> Error: keyword can't be an expression (<string>, line 1)
 172 2011-06-18 01:08:54 <phantomcircuit> i should really read more about ecc
 173 2011-06-18 01:08:58 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,calc 1000000*[bc,nethash]] 2m
 174 2011-06-18 01:08:59 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 175 2011-06-18 01:09:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: basically ECDH used in a different way
 176 2011-06-18 01:09:20 <ius> phantomcircuit: Have no fear, bonus material is here
 177 2011-06-18 01:09:24 <ius> Example: http://pastie.org/private/c69dameilihpgiwg3pjjmq
 178 2011-06-18 01:09:47 <gmaxwell> hah did you just implement that while I was talking?
 179 2011-06-18 01:10:09 <ius> Of course
 180 2011-06-18 01:10:13 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,calc (1000000*[bc,nethash])] 2m
 181 2011-06-18 01:10:14 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 182 2011-06-18 01:10:16 <ius> (No, really, I did not)
 183 2011-06-18 01:10:22 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 184 2011-06-18 01:10:42 earthmeLon has joined
 185 2011-06-18 01:10:46 <gmaxwell> yea, so what I wanted to do was set secret above to  sha256(password+index) and then websites could generate one-shot keys without preloading anything, risk of data loss, or theft.
 186 2011-06-18 01:11:02 <ius> Stumbled upon the vanity addr topic a few days ago, the idea sparked my interest, so I decided to figure it out
 187 2011-06-18 01:11:05 <gmaxwell> (though someone who hacked the sites could get the password and connect the oneshot keys, but oh well)
 188 2011-06-18 01:11:43 <gmaxwell> ius: yea, likewise, though I didn't implement it. I just satisfied myself that it would work. :)
 189 2011-06-18 01:13:00 llama has joined
 190 2011-06-18 01:13:10 T_X has joined
 191 2011-06-18 01:13:21 <D0han> is there bitcoind for windows?
 192 2011-06-18 01:13:29 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 193 2011-06-18 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> in terms of the wallet theft press— we would really just be better off if someone caught the theif. :-/
 194 2011-06-18 01:13:43 Teslah has joined
 195 2011-06-18 01:13:44 <ius> It sounded entirely plausible, but my EC maths is rusty (or: inadequate), so I had to check :p
 196 2011-06-18 01:14:09 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
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 199 2011-06-18 01:14:26 LobsterMan has joined
 200 2011-06-18 01:14:26 <sipa> D0han: yes, it's included in the distribution
 201 2011-06-18 01:14:30 <ius> And sagemath is a real nice piece of software to play around with ECC
 202 2011-06-18 01:14:35 <sipa> D0han: in the 'daemon' directory
 203 2011-06-18 01:14:44 <D0han> thanks sipa
 204 2011-06-18 01:14:54 ajf is now known as ajf|offline
 205 2011-06-18 01:15:05 <gmaxwell> ius: I use sage but seldom recommend it.. at 500 mbytes installed it's almost as bad as mathmatica. :)
 206 2011-06-18 01:16:43 <gmaxwell> Someone needs to do a nice CLMUL based bit of code for bitcoin it would be a lot faster on the sandybridge chips.
 207 2011-06-18 01:17:50 <ius> I suppose such optimizations would hit OpenSSL soon enough?
 208 2011-06-18 01:17:56 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 209 2011-06-18 01:18:01 <ius> And yeah, sage is really hefty
 210 2011-06-18 01:18:13 <gmaxwell> It's only applicable to binary field curves.
 211 2011-06-18 01:18:37 <gmaxwell> And openssl is actually pretty terrible about hardware support.
 212 2011-06-18 01:19:15 <wasabi1> I am having a very hard time reading this cpuminer generic C code.
 213 2011-06-18 01:19:32 <wasabi1> I see no where where it appends a 1 and zeros to the 128 bit data block.
 214 2011-06-18 01:21:05 AlreadyDead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 215 2011-06-18 01:21:08 <ius> gmaxwell: True, spent some time with VIA's PadLock and was able to squeeze some faster field multiplication out of it
 216 2011-06-18 01:21:50 <gmaxwell> ius: there is a paper by some intel folks that basically has the code in it, through the reduction is setup for another field.
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 220 2011-06-18 01:23:23 <gmaxwell> ius: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/04492490.pdf
 221 2011-06-18 01:23:34 <groffer> jimrandomh: agreed on the need for secure devices and shared keys
 222 2011-06-18 01:23:51 lessPlastic has joined
 223 2011-06-18 01:24:04 Tim-7967 has joined
 224 2011-06-18 01:25:31 <groffer> jimrandomh: could even imaging a dedicated device.  A low-end android phone would do.
 225 2011-06-18 01:26:50 <ius> gmaxwell: Neat
 226 2011-06-18 01:26:52 <ius> Well
 227 2011-06-18 01:27:16 <ius> You can generate a key securely, but you'll still have to sign somewhere
 228 2011-06-18 01:27:38 catphish has joined
 229 2011-06-18 01:28:57 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 230 2011-06-18 01:29:11 <gmaxwell> ius: but you sign to spend. so you just throw it away at that point.
 231 2011-06-18 01:30:06 <gmaxwell> (FWIW, the intel paper claims a 21x speedup over openssl for their technique CLMUL, but they're assuming 9cycles while on sanybridge it's 8 cycles, so probably somewhat better)
 232 2011-06-18 01:32:13 <ius> But if you're signing on a single host the key could still be compromised.. Then you'd need to rely on the network to accept your transaction instead of the attackers' (assuming he can grab the key as you sign)
 233 2011-06-18 01:32:47 Herodes has joined
 234 2011-06-18 01:33:00 <gmaxwell> Ah, well thats true.
 235 2011-06-18 01:34:14 <groffer> gmaxwell, have you seen this: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=18440.87.106.138.84.1308200020.squirrel%40lavabit.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
 236 2011-06-18 01:34:47 <groffer> it's a pull request for an implementation of in-chain escrow
 237 2011-06-18 01:35:02 Leo_II1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 238 2011-06-18 01:35:10 <gmaxwell> I hadn't but I'm familar with how in-chain escrow was supposted to be done, of course.
 239 2011-06-18 01:35:19 <groffer> it can be used to require signatures by multiple devices
 240 2011-06-18 01:35:39 <groffer> including m out of n
 241 2011-06-18 01:36:32 <groffer> so you could have one key on your desktop, one on your phone and one in a safety deposit box
 242 2011-06-18 01:36:33 <gmaxwell> Totally OT, but what with the API using reals instead of integers btw— it inspires moronic behavior wrt single precision floats on the part of application developers.
 243 2011-06-18 01:36:35 <groffer> require 2 keys
 244 2011-06-18 01:37:00 lessPlastic has quit (Quit: lessPlastic)
 245 2011-06-18 01:37:07 ^1bitc0inplz has joined
 246 2011-06-18 01:37:33 <gmaxwell> It would be kinda nice if we supported the public-key recovery stuff so that txn that redeem escrow txn wouldn't be huge. Oh well.
 247 2011-06-18 01:38:17 <groffer> how does public-key recovery work?
 248 2011-06-18 01:40:00 eureka^ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 249 2011-06-18 01:40:03 <gmaxwell> groffer: given a signature and a hashed message you can recover the public key used to sign it. I'm kinda fuzzy on the math at the moment. I could search for a reference though.
 250 2011-06-18 01:41:36 <enki> are namecoins really needed? couldn't i just send sacrificial transactions in the main chain
 251 2011-06-18 01:41:40 <groffer> I thought you meant private key recovery
 252 2011-06-18 01:41:43 eureka^ has joined
 253 2011-06-18 01:41:48 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
 254 2011-06-18 01:42:39 <gmaxwell> enki: no, because the network needs to preserve the transaction rules.
 255 2011-06-18 01:42:54 <enki> gmaxwell: ?
 256 2011-06-18 01:43:01 karnac has joined
 257 2011-06-18 01:44:10 <enki> i can send transactions that are irredeemable and contain payload
 258 2011-06-18 01:44:16 <gmaxwell> enki: validating that the chain of ownership is good e.g. that you don't get two people registering the same names. Namecoin also does a pretty nifty "lock then register" that keeps an observer watching txn from claimjumpingyour name.
 259 2011-06-18 01:44:44 <gmaxwell> enki: also— writing a bunch of random data that most bitcoin users don't care about into the blockchain is nasty.
 260 2011-06-18 01:45:01 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 261 2011-06-18 01:45:12 <enki> well, as long as i pay transaction fees for it :P
 262 2011-06-18 01:45:50 <enki> will need to look into the lock-then-register thing
 263 2011-06-18 01:45:59 <gmaxwell> No, not okay. I get a benefit from other people's real bitcoin txns becaus seeing them lets me validate payments to me.
 264 2011-06-18 01:46:21 <gmaxwell> I don't gain anything from blockchain spam even if the miner that mined it was paid well for it.
 265 2011-06-18 01:46:26 <gmaxwell> enki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_Chains is much better.
 266 2011-06-18 01:46:28 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 267 2011-06-18 01:46:32 <gmaxwell> (and namecoin is going to us it)
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 275 2011-06-18 01:50:49 <gmaxwell> groffer: Does each signer need to provide the same address to redeemescrow?
 276 2011-06-18 01:51:04 <denisx> someone wants to test my pool with difficulty-2? address: 84.189.76.26:8332 user:denis pw:denis
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 278 2011-06-18 01:51:39 <gmaxwell> groffer: any plans for a sendmany redeem that allows the escrow parties holders to get paid? (e.g. I won't release a txn unless I'm given a cut)
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 283 2011-06-18 01:53:50 <groffer> groffer: the redeem address currently has to be a non-escrow one
 284 2011-06-18 01:54:07 <groffer> I mean gmaxwell ^^
 285 2011-06-18 01:54:41 <groffer> and yes, I do want to do sendmany and also change back to the escrow address
 286 2011-06-18 01:54:55 <groffer> change as in "leftover"
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 288 2011-06-18 01:55:53 <gmaxwell> groffer: right, so  though my question on each signer? e.g. what happens if someone sends me a partial that was signed with addr 1A and I try to sign it for output 1B ?
 289 2011-06-18 01:56:11 <gmaxwell> groffer: oh change back to the escrow is neat.
 290 2011-06-18 01:56:13 <groffer> gmaxwell, there's a check for that
 291 2011-06-18 01:56:38 <groffer> it recomputes the outscript, and if different than expected it errors
 292 2011-06-18 01:56:56 <gmaxwell> groffer: good. Yea, leaving the api the same but letting it take lists like sendmany for the payout would be nice (and then it implicitly pays back unspent balance into the escrow again)
 293 2011-06-18 01:57:25 <groffer> gmaxwell, yeah that's the plan
 294 2011-06-18 01:58:27 <gmaxwell> http://www.secg.org/download/aid-780/sec1-v2.pdf < page 48 describes public key recovery. This would drastically reduce the size of escrow spend transactions.
 295 2011-06-18 01:58:38 Tim-7967 has joined
 296 2011-06-18 01:58:54 <groffer> will take a look!  thanks
 297 2011-06-18 01:59:28 <groffer> if you have time to review my code, I'd be happy for any comments
 298 2011-06-18 01:59:38 <gmaxwell> I thought it a kind of unimportant optimization for bitcoin overall (perhaps halving txn size) but for escrows with four keys... it would be more important.
 299 2011-06-18 01:59:42 <gmaxwell> I'll do so.
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 315 2011-06-18 02:08:57 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what specifically in that doc are you talking about?
 316 2011-06-18 02:09:08 <ius> jimrandomh: Do you have a crypto background? Just read your blog article, IANAC(ryptographer), but I'm not sure what you're proposing
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 320 2011-06-18 02:09:37 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: page 48, steps 1.6.n
 321 2011-06-18 02:10:19 <jrmithdobbs> oh that's cool
 322 2011-06-18 02:10:49 <jrmithdobbs> that's very cool
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 324 2011-06-18 02:11:03 <jrmithdobbs> ECC still confuses the fuck out of me
 325 2011-06-18 02:11:19 jimrandomh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 326 2011-06-18 02:11:37 <ius> Having a homomorphic property in your signature scheme doesnt't sound desirable to me (ref. RSA blind signing)
 327 2011-06-18 02:12:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i wonder if openssl already has code to do it in the huge pile of undocumented EC stuff
 328 2011-06-18 02:12:13 <jrmithdobbs> it very well may
 329 2011-06-18 02:12:33 <ius> ..and doesn't seem related to the problem at hand (split keys, or requiring two parties)
 330 2011-06-18 02:12:35 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, so you could avoid sending the public key in the txn and just let the reciver recover it. But it takes extra computation. Another option would be to send the key with the txn but outside the signed portion, so that it can later be stripped. So it's still fast to validate when you have the key, but you can forget the keys to save storage in the future.
 331 2011-06-18 02:13:03 Castor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 332 2011-06-18 02:13:08 <gmaxwell> ius: it relates to this: https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/commit/83707c8dd4573bb958f9e504fb6263c8fa1ef942
 333 2011-06-18 02:13:21 <gmaxwell> ius: which relates to "the problem at hand"
 334 2011-06-18 02:13:50 <jrmithdobbs> ius: it cuts down the size of the script significantly seeing as, especially in cases with multiple signers, the pubkeys are the vast majority of the storage/line data
 335 2011-06-18 02:14:11 <ius> gmaxwell: Yeah I see, I didn't mean your/jrmithdobbs' conversation though ;)
 336 2011-06-18 02:14:28 <ius> I was referring to http://lesswrong.com/lw/5rg/homomorphic_encryption_and_bitcoin
 337 2011-06-18 02:14:40 <gmaxwell> ius: oh I hadn't seen that.
 338 2011-06-18 02:14:50 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i wonder what the computation needs are of those ops in the real world
 339 2011-06-18 02:15:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i know recovering the pubkey from the privkey + params is less than trivial
 340 2011-06-18 02:16:08 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: on the order of generating a key, a little bit worse. But all this can be made a lot faster. I was pointing out earlier that we could get a >21x validation speedup on sandybridge.
 341 2011-06-18 02:16:09 <jrmithdobbs> (computationally speaking)
 342 2011-06-18 02:16:14 sacarlson has joined
 343 2011-06-18 02:16:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: generating a key, even with all the hashing for publication that bitcoin does, is trivial computationally speaking
 344 2011-06-18 02:16:49 Clockmakre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 345 2011-06-18 02:17:07 <jrmithdobbs> (the math is hard, obviously, but we're talking ~400ms or less for the actual keygen + hashing)
 346 2011-06-18 02:17:20 <jrmithdobbs> and that's on old p4/xeons
 347 2011-06-18 02:17:39 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 348 2011-06-18 02:17:43 <phantomcircuit> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18709.msg235709
 349 2011-06-18 02:17:47 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, ius fyi
 350 2011-06-18 02:17:50 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: something in the bitcoin code slows it down WAY MORE than than it should
 351 2011-06-18 02:18:11 <jrmithdobbs> i think related to the bdb fsync nightmare
 352 2011-06-18 02:18:28 k^^ has joined
 353 2011-06-18 02:18:33 <gmaxwell> So yes, key recovery is slower but the slowdown should be was less than the speedup we could get from better optimized ECC code.
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 356 2011-06-18 02:19:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and I'm not even enabling the patented alg in openssl or anything crazy
 357 2011-06-18 02:19:40 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 358 2011-06-18 02:19:54 <wasabi1> So.. I think I got it. SHA256 only needs a 1 appended, and the length, if it isn't block aligned, right?
 359 2011-06-18 02:20:34 <wasabi1> So I have to do that when hashing the hash. As it's not 64 bytes long.
 360 2011-06-18 02:20:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: seriously, 500 keys + sha256(sha256(privkey)) can do ~500 keys in 1.448s on a core2duo *serially*
 361 2011-06-18 02:20:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and that includes a buffer dup
 362 2011-06-18 02:20:57 <jrmithdobbs> $ time examples/genkeys 500 >/dev/null
 363 2011-06-18 02:20:57 <jrmithdobbs> real    0m1.448s
 364 2011-06-18 02:20:57 <jrmithdobbs> user    0m1.400s
 365 2011-06-18 02:20:57 <jrmithdobbs> sys     0m0.009s
 366 2011-06-18 02:21:32 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: sure sure. I know, it's not slow. Validation is a bigger concern because you'll have to recover a ...few... more than 500 keys. :)
 367 2011-06-18 02:21:40 <jrmithdobbs> oh i'm sorry, that's keygen + sha256(sha256(privkey)) + base58 encoding
 368 2011-06-18 02:21:45 karnac has joined
 369 2011-06-18 02:21:51 <gmaxwell> Though you could cache them since you'll know the addresses.
 370 2011-06-18 02:22:14 <wasabi1> jrmithdobbs: so you obviously seem to know wtf is going on. Am I right with regards to my SHA256 stuff?
 371 2011-06-18 02:22:38 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: the bitcoin code is misleading
 372 2011-06-18 02:22:41 karnac_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 373 2011-06-18 02:22:41 <jrmithdobbs> VERY misleading
 374 2011-06-18 02:22:48 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: especially the comments
 375 2011-06-18 02:23:07 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: *all* keys pub and priv are 0 padded and stored big endian
 376 2011-06-18 02:23:08 <wasabi1> Well, I've been going over a bunch of differnet miners.
 377 2011-06-18 02:24:10 <jrmithdobbs> i've not looked at the mining code but from how things are handled i'd bet the same is true there
 378 2011-06-18 02:24:10 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 379 2011-06-18 02:24:31 <wasabi1> It is very hard to figure out the specifics of how teh data stuff is encoded, it seems.
 380 2011-06-18 02:24:42 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: the one is a result of zero padding in the base58 alg bitcoin uses
 381 2011-06-18 02:24:43 <wasabi1> I've successfully managed to duplicate midstate, finally.
 382 2011-06-18 02:24:51 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: ya because some of the comments in key sections are outright LIES
 383 2011-06-18 02:24:55 <jrmithdobbs> heh
 384 2011-06-18 02:25:08 <wasabi1> Which means at least my transform algo is right.
 385 2011-06-18 02:25:37 <jrmithdobbs> wasabi1: eg, ignore that comment in base58.h that says it's swapping little endian, that's lieing, most of the data that is actuall base58 encoded (not all, ugh) is actually big endian to start with
 386 2011-06-18 02:25:37 eureka^ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 387 2011-06-18 02:25:43 <jrmithdobbs> err base58.cpp
 388 2011-06-18 02:25:49 <wasabi1> So, the second half of the header... SHA256 standard says that if the data should have a 0x01, and zeros, and then the size (in two bytes) appended to it.
 389 2011-06-18 02:26:07 <wasabi1> I'm not seeing that in any of this C miner code.
 390 2011-06-18 02:26:32 eureka^ has joined
 391 2011-06-18 02:26:32 <ius> gmaxwell: btw, the paper mentions speedups for binary fields - I doubt it simply extends to prime fields (but I'm lacking on field theory)
 392 2011-06-18 02:27:33 <wasabi1> I'm wondering if it just ignores it.
 393 2011-06-18 02:27:56 <wasabi1> But it can't...
 394 2011-06-18 02:28:00 <wasabi1> because some of these working miners use openssl.
 395 2011-06-18 02:28:07 <wasabi1> Which undoubidly does it right.
 396 2011-06-18 02:28:31 sacarlson has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 397 2011-06-18 02:28:52 <wasabi1> ANd the data that comes in over RPC has some stuff at the end, but no '1' that I can see.
 398 2011-06-18 02:29:08 <wasabi1> 128,2,0,0
 399 2011-06-18 02:29:15 karnac has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 400 2011-06-18 02:29:22 <ius> also, if you're extending the client to support ownership of coins by requiromg multiple signatures, that might solve the split key problem too ;)
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 405 2011-06-18 02:31:14 <gmaxwell> ius: er. We use a binary curve.
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 407 2011-06-18 02:31:43 <ius> secp256k1? - p for prime?
 408 2011-06-18 02:33:20 <wasabi1> That doesn't even make sense. Are you supposed to prehash the first 76 bytes of hte block header, or the first 64?
 409 2011-06-18 02:33:52 <jrmithdobbs> walletinspector.info went back to static png after my second nasty email to linode btw
 410 2011-06-18 02:34:06 <wasabi1> I got the midstate with just the first 64... but this python   version actually seems to do the first 76
 411 2011-06-18 02:34:43 <gmaxwell> ius: I thought koblitz were all characteristic-2 (over 2^m) by definition
 412 2011-06-18 02:34:54 lolcat has quit (Changing host)
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 414 2011-06-18 02:35:17 <wasabi1> Oh... or maybe the algorithm recovers, no matter how much data you throw at it.
 415 2011-06-18 02:35:36 <wasabi1> so you could do 0-63. and then  64-127, or any combo there of.
 416 2011-06-18 02:35:40 <wasabi1> But midstate is defined as first 64.
 417 2011-06-18 02:35:52 sacarlson has joined
 418 2011-06-18 02:36:00 <wasabi1> What's all the other shit in the data block? Everything after the header?
 419 2011-06-18 02:36:28 <gmaxwell> "CM-curves with good cryptographic properties" is the relevant paper I guess.
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 426 2011-06-18 02:42:05 <wasabi1> So I learned that hash1 isn't useful, at least.
 427 2011-06-18 02:43:10 <wasabi1> So this python miner only builds the digest off of the 80 bytes of the header. Nothing more.
 428 2011-06-18 02:43:51 <wasabi1> I don't see how that can work, since other miners I've seen build it off of the full 128.
 429 2011-06-18 02:44:02 <wasabi1> I don't know how those two hashes can both work.
 430 2011-06-18 02:44:34 <phantomcircuit> one is a half state for sha256
 431 2011-06-18 02:44:38 <phantomcircuit> the other is the full headers
 432 2011-06-18 02:44:56 <wasabi1> You mean midstate?
 433 2011-06-18 02:45:03 <phantomcircuit> yeah that
 434 2011-06-18 02:45:19 <wasabi1> Yeah I figured out what that is.  That's the first 64 bytes of the header run through the algo once.
 435 2011-06-18 02:45:52 <wasabi1> What I'm trying to fully understand is whether you're supposed to then lay the other 64 after that, with or without the data that comes along from the RPC call.
 436 2011-06-18 02:46:46 <phantomcircuit> uh
 437 2011-06-18 02:46:47 <phantomcircuit> no
 438 2011-06-18 02:46:55 <phantomcircuit> the midstate isn't run once through
 439 2011-06-18 02:47:19 <wasabi1> Well, I have an algo that generates the mid state from the first 64. So I got that. And I can feed the midstate back into it to resume it.
 440 2011-06-18 02:47:22 <wasabi1> So I think I understand that.
 441 2011-06-18 02:47:55 <wasabi1> But what should I resume it with, the rest of the header, and then what?
 442 2011-06-18 02:48:05 <wasabi1> To bring it up to a 64 byte block size.
 443 2011-06-18 02:48:25 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: that shit is retarded re: prev topic
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 457 2011-06-18 02:57:39 <lfm> wasabi1 the standard specifies what you fill it with. first an 0x80 byte then enuf zero bytes and the last 4 bytes are the total size of the input befor padding
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 459 2011-06-18 02:58:15 <lfm> the size is I think a bit count and bigendian
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 462 2011-06-18 02:59:13 <s3kati> can anyone point me to a bitcoin faucet thats up? im new/trying out the BC client and the faucet URL listed in all FAQs is down
 463 2011-06-18 02:59:39 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
 464 2011-06-18 02:59:43 <lfm> s3kati: sorry is only one faucet
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 467 2011-06-18 02:59:59 <wasabi1> lfm: Sure, so what... discard the rest of the stuff in the data?
 468 2011-06-18 03:00:12 <s3kati> lfm: darn thats what i was afraid of - been trying to generate just to see *somethin* happen but seems unlikely
 469 2011-06-18 03:00:20 <wasabi1> This is what's at the end of the 'data' value for me: 000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
 470 2011-06-18 03:00:33 <wasabi1> I see the 0x80 there... in what, little endian?
 471 2011-06-18 03:00:35 <lfm> wasabi1 huh? dont discard anything, that stuff is just what I was describing
 472 2011-06-18 03:00:45 <wasabi1> But that's too long, isn't it?
 473 2011-06-18 03:01:11 <lfm> wasabi1: its been bytes swapped by the bitcoind server
 474 2011-06-18 03:01:26 <wasabi1> The length at the end, 80020000 is 640.
 475 2011-06-18 03:01:35 henchan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 476 2011-06-18 03:01:38 <lfm> yup 640 bits
 477 2011-06-18 03:01:54 <wasabi1> Oh. Duh.
 478 2011-06-18 03:01:56 theymos has joined
 479 2011-06-18 03:01:56 <wasabi1> That's 80 bytes.
 480 2011-06-18 03:02:00 <wasabi1> The size is in bits. :)
 481 2011-06-18 03:02:03 <lfm> duh
 482 2011-06-18 03:02:03 <jrmithdobbs> ya was gonna say that looks right
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 485 2011-06-18 03:04:09 <lfm> its cuz the standard is working on what is considered a bit stream, like the 0x80 is actually jjust a single stop bit
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 489 2011-06-18 03:08:27 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: can you verify that CSRF is fixed?
 490 2011-06-18 03:09:33 <jrmithdobbs> someone finally got ahold of MagicalTux ?
 491 2011-06-18 03:09:48 <lfm> wasabi1 note the hash1 string has the same sort of padding pre-initialized for 32 bytes
 492 2011-06-18 03:10:14 <wasabi1> I see.
 493 2011-06-18 03:10:16 <wasabi1> That's useful.
 494 2011-06-18 03:10:50 <wasabi1> So I can just use my SHA algorithm to dump my hash in there, and then I have two blocks waiting to hash for the hash of the has.
 495 2011-06-18 03:10:50 <lfm> usefull for some, wastfull for others
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 497 2011-06-18 03:11:01 <wasabi1> Well, it's unrequired net traffic.
 498 2011-06-18 03:12:08 <lfm> wasabi1 ya and some hardware sha256 implementations do it themselves again anyway
 499 2011-06-18 03:12:44 <wasabi1> For completeness, I'm going to redo it.
 500 2011-06-18 03:12:46 andzej has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 501 2011-06-18 03:12:49 <wasabi1> But thanks. I get it now.
 502 2011-06-18 03:13:10 <lfm> wasabi1 ya you never know when some pool is gonna make a mess of it
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 504 2011-06-18 03:15:31 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya fixed
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 514 2011-06-18 03:27:20 <wasabi1> Hmm. So I am still missing on small part... 00000080.  The SHA-2 standard says 'append the bit 1 to the message'
 515 2011-06-18 03:27:46 <wasabi1> Doesn't really say to append it inside an integer of a certain endianness
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 517 2011-06-18 03:27:58 <wasabi1> oh... unless... i get it.
 518 2011-06-18 03:28:19 <wasabi1> the 'bit 1' is actually there, but it's jumbled up in the hex encoding.
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 522 2011-06-18 03:28:28 <wasabi1> since the hex encoding is working on byte units.
 523 2011-06-18 03:28:36 <lfm> wasabiremember the message is big endian
 524 2011-06-18 03:29:03 <wasabi1> So 00000080 is actually just '1' followed by a bunch of zeros.
 525 2011-06-18 03:29:30 <wasabi1> most signfiicant byte being on the far right.
 526 2011-06-18 03:29:43 <lfm> ya the extra byte swapping bitcoin did makes it harder to see
 527 2011-06-18 03:30:16 <lfm> and the most significant byte is considered first
 528 2011-06-18 03:30:42 <lfm> and the most significant bit of the most significant byte is considered first
 529 2011-06-18 03:31:04 GarrettB has left ()
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 531 2011-06-18 03:33:03 <lfm> so the 1 bit of the 0x80 is the first bit following the message
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 545 2011-06-18 03:51:38 <midnightmagic> what's this MtGox problem brocktice mentioned on his twitter feed?
 546 2011-06-18 03:54:18 <lfm> I think its more people with poor passwords or people who got hacked
 547 2011-06-18 03:54:46 Idler has quit ()
 548 2011-06-18 03:54:53 Idler has joined
 549 2011-06-18 03:54:56 <gmaxwell> lfm: midnightmagic .. er no.
 550 2011-06-18 03:54:59 <gmaxwell> CSRF. :(
 551 2011-06-18 03:55:01 karnac has joined
 552 2011-06-18 03:55:21 Idler is now known as pyros1
 553 2011-06-18 03:55:32 <gmaxwell> You could rewrite the users user info for anyone logged in and take over their account.
 554 2011-06-18 03:56:37 Backburn` has joined
 555 2011-06-18 03:57:09 <lfm> gmaxwell: you mean if they leave their machine logged in or you mean from anywhere?
 556 2011-06-18 03:57:12 <midnightmagic> Bah, lame.
 557 2011-06-18 03:58:14 <gmaxwell> lfm: normal csrf. You log into mtgox.. later, while still logged in, you visit the badguy's website. He has some hidden iframe that does some mtgox fetch and you hand over control of your account to him without knowing anything happened.
 558 2011-06-18 03:58:35 <gmaxwell> Its fixed now apparently.
 559 2011-06-18 03:58:56 <lfm> oh ok
 560 2011-06-18 03:59:00 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 561 2011-06-18 03:59:10 <gmaxwell> But it sounds like a lot of people got ripped off.
 562 2011-06-18 03:59:15 Backburn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 563 2011-06-18 03:59:21 Backburn` is now known as Backburn
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 569 2011-06-18 04:09:59 <wasabi1> heh. man. still struggling.
 570 2011-06-18 04:10:31 darkmethod has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 571 2011-06-18 04:11:16 Elwes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 573 2011-06-18 04:15:45 <wasabi1> The end of the buffer (length in bits) is supposed to be a 8 byte integer, big-endian. That means the last bytes of the buffer should have the value. As far as I can tell.
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 576 2011-06-18 04:17:03 <wasabi1> I can't figure out anyway this is right, unless bitcoin is using a 32 bit integer.
 577 2011-06-18 04:17:56 lessPlastic has joined
 578 2011-06-18 04:18:27 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: you should probably look at ticket#1730 in your support queue.
 579 2011-06-18 04:18:33 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 580 2011-06-18 04:18:33 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: just sayin
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 583 2011-06-18 04:22:20 <jrmithdobbs> http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/lol-mtgox.png
 584 2011-06-18 04:22:37 <jrmithdobbs> confirmed not showing as associated
 585 2011-06-18 04:22:41 <jrmithdobbs> that's good.
 586 2011-06-18 04:22:47 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
 587 2011-06-18 04:22:50 mmoya has joined
 588 2011-06-18 04:26:33 <wasabi1> 80020000 on the end makes no sense to me.
 589 2011-06-18 04:27:47 btc4beer has joined
 590 2011-06-18 04:28:16 <wasabi1> lfm: Riddle me this... the end of the data received by the node is 0000000080020000... which seems to be 0,0,0,0,128,2,0,0
 591 2011-06-18 04:28:17 <wasabi1> Right?
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 596 2011-06-18 04:44:52 <citiz3n> for addnode, is it bitcoin.exe -addnode x.x.x.x
 597 2011-06-18 04:44:58 <citiz3n> or bitcoin.exe --adnode x.x.x.x
 598 2011-06-18 04:45:00 <jrmithdobbs> -addnode=
 599 2011-06-18 04:45:07 <jrmithdobbs> -addnode=ip
 600 2011-06-18 04:45:18 <citiz3n> thanks
 601 2011-06-18 04:45:21 <citiz3n> that's for command line, right
 602 2011-06-18 04:45:24 <citiz3n> not config file
 603 2011-06-18 04:45:32 <jrmithdobbs> take the - off for config file
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 606 2011-06-18 04:46:45 <citiz3n> cool, thank you jrmithdobbs
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 622 2011-06-18 05:10:33 <fiverawr> When using sendfrom, it should only send from addresses that belong to the specified account? Right?
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 630 2011-06-18 05:17:11 <luke-jr> fiverawr: addresses don't belong to accounts
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 634 2011-06-18 05:24:38 <alystair> https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1 <- funniest moment on github yet :D
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 646 2011-06-18 05:36:09 <iz> wasabi1: 32-bit int, swap the byte order and you get 0x00000280 = 640 bits
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 663 2011-06-18 06:08:24 <bx_> Anyone here
 664 2011-06-18 06:08:25 OneFixt has quit (Changing host)
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 669 2011-06-18 06:12:05 <manveru> bx_: oi
 670 2011-06-18 06:12:53 glassresistor has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 671 2011-06-18 06:14:47 <bx_> i wanna send bitcoins via peehp
 672 2011-06-18 06:16:36 karnac has joined
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 676 2011-06-18 06:20:58 <wasabi1> iz: I didn't think it was supposed to be 32 bit
 677 2011-06-18 06:21:24 wasabi1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 678 2011-06-18 06:21:44 wasabi1 has joined
 679 2011-06-18 06:22:07 RazielZ has joined
 680 2011-06-18 06:23:18 <wasabi1> wikipedia says: append length of message (before pre-processing), in bits, as 64-bit big-endian integer
 681 2011-06-18 06:25:25 loopyduck has joined
 682 2011-06-18 06:25:55 <wasabi1> I'm afraid I'm reading the hex data block back incorrectly or something, or something
 683 2011-06-18 06:26:35 <wasabi1> The value at the end of data does not appear to be a 64 bit big endian number equalling 640, to me.
 684 2011-06-18 06:29:34 <wasabi1> It looks like it's swapped around improperly... which it might be.
 685 2011-06-18 06:29:51 TheZimm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 687 2011-06-18 06:30:21 <Kireji> ;;bc,mtgox
 688 2011-06-18 06:30:21 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.2,"low":13,"vol":85350,"buy":15.5001,"sell":15.545,"last":15.5001}}
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 693 2011-06-18 06:40:14 charlie is now known as Guest29443
 694 2011-06-18 06:40:22 <IoWn3rU_> is the mt gox api down
 695 2011-06-18 06:40:28 <Guest29443> hey, my php curl call stopped working for mtgox
 696 2011-06-18 06:40:45 <IoWn3rU_> guest29443: my program is hanging when trying to get a response
 697 2011-06-18 06:40:55 Kurtov has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 698 2011-06-18 06:40:55 <Guest29443> i can still wget --no-check-certificates but not with curl
 699 2011-06-18 06:43:28 DanZimm is now known as TheZimm
 700 2011-06-18 06:44:47 <Guest29443> `now mtgox is just hanging
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 706 2011-06-18 06:53:46 IO- is now known as IO-49er
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 713 2011-06-18 07:09:00 <wasabi1> Would a pool return the same timestamp for everybody for a given round?
 714 2011-06-18 07:09:09 forrestv has joined
 715 2011-06-18 07:09:28 <wasabi1> Hmm. Guessing the answer is no.
 716 2011-06-18 07:10:35 * phantomcircuit just found 1.1k btc i thought i rm -rf'd
 717 2011-06-18 07:10:39 * phantomcircuit does a dance
 718 2011-06-18 07:11:02 <spunnnn> very elite.
 719 2011-06-18 07:11:10 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: send me some of your magic plz.
 720 2011-06-18 07:11:13 <spunnnn> facebook worm that shit.
 721 2011-06-18 07:11:40 vokoda` is now known as vokoda
 722 2011-06-18 07:12:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, my magic recipe is simple, gpg --symetci, copy everywhere
 723 2011-06-18 07:12:22 <phantomcircuit> rofl
 724 2011-06-18 07:14:17 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: in theory I have a wallet with a few hundred (I think 500?) btc from when I first heard about bitcoin. It's most likely gone though. Oh well.
 725 2011-06-18 07:14:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i actually started to do a disk recovery, the format of the privkey in bdb is pretty distinct
 726 2011-06-18 07:14:59 <phantomcircuit> you might still be able to recover from disk
 727 2011-06-18 07:15:00 <bx_> is windows the server of choice to run
 728 2011-06-18 07:15:05 <bx_> if im making a casino based site
 729 2011-06-18 07:15:09 <bx_> because i need to
 730 2011-06-18 07:15:15 <phantomcircuit> especially if you have a lot of free disk space
 731 2011-06-18 07:15:17 <bx_> do transactions, etc, interact with the bitcoin client
 732 2011-06-18 07:15:29 <spunnnn> https://mtgox.com/users/register?username=XXXpassword=YYYY&passworda=YYYY&email=
 733 2011-06-18 07:15:36 <bx_> ?
 734 2011-06-18 07:15:36 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 735 2011-06-18 07:15:39 <spunnnn> mtgox stores register form in GET variables? bad mojo
 736 2011-06-18 07:15:42 <spunnnn> time to check their apache logs
 737 2011-06-18 07:15:43 <phantomcircuit> bx_, windows is the server of choice if you enjoy going to prison when you get hacked and all the money goes missing
 738 2011-06-18 07:15:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I have pretty good secure erasure practices... and wouldn't have been likely to bother saving some role account's data.
 739 2011-06-18 07:15:50 <bx_> rofl phantomcircuit exactly
 740 2011-06-18 07:16:04 <bx_> so how easy is it to automate
 741 2011-06-18 07:16:09 <bx_> the payout and withdrawl
 742 2011-06-18 07:16:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's unfortunate
 743 2011-06-18 07:16:17 <bx_> with nix
 744 2011-06-18 07:16:18 <gmaxwell> Going to prison? I think it takes some work to automate that.
 745 2011-06-18 07:16:19 <phantomcircuit> bx_, reasonably easy
 746 2011-06-18 07:16:20 <bx_> which client is best
 747 2011-06-18 07:16:34 dr_win has joined
 748 2011-06-18 07:16:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's actually fairly simple, it's hard to do well, but easy to just do
 749 2011-06-18 07:17:06 <phantomcircuit> bx_, there is really only one client
 750 2011-06-18 07:17:14 <bx_> explain
 751 2011-06-18 07:17:30 <phantomcircuit> there is only a single complete implementation
 752 2011-06-18 07:18:25 <phantomcircuit> bx_, tip, dont use the baked in account handling, assign each user an ever growing list of addresses
 753 2011-06-18 07:18:37 <phantomcircuit> overtime it'll shit on your dbs performance but it's necessary
 754 2011-06-18 07:20:56 <bx_> okay so
 755 2011-06-18 07:20:58 <bx_> dont use windows
 756 2011-06-18 07:21:00 <Gray> mongo
 757 2011-06-18 07:21:01 <bx_> i see most sites are
 758 2011-06-18 07:21:07 <bx_> ima get a nix
 759 2011-06-18 07:21:08 <Gray> no issues with db performance
 760 2011-06-18 07:21:08 <bx_> what os works best
 761 2011-06-18 07:21:10 <bx_> to automate
 762 2011-06-18 07:21:23 <phantomcircuit> Gray, is that a fucking joke
 763 2011-06-18 07:21:35 albert has joined
 764 2011-06-18 07:21:40 <phantomcircuit> any site dealing with money shouldn't touch mongodb with a 1000ft pole
 765 2011-06-18 07:21:59 albert is now known as Guest34167
 766 2011-06-18 07:22:03 <Gray> really :x
 767 2011-06-18 07:22:07 <phantomcircuit> yes
 768 2011-06-18 07:22:16 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 769 2011-06-18 07:22:16 <phantomcircuit> jesus crist it doesn't guarantee writes occur at all
 770 2011-06-18 07:22:22 <Diablo-D3> LOL
 771 2011-06-18 07:22:23 <Diablo-D3> MONGO
 772 2011-06-18 07:22:24 <Diablo-D3> LOL
 773 2011-06-18 07:22:45 <Gray> there's a way to fix that
 774 2011-06-18 07:22:49 <phantomcircuit> web scale my ass
 775 2011-06-18 07:22:54 <Diablo-D3> dude
 776 2011-06-18 07:22:58 <Diablo-D3> web scale is a joke
 777 2011-06-18 07:23:00 IO-49er is now known as Io-
 778 2011-06-18 07:23:02 <Diablo-D3> WRITE YOUR SOFTWARE T NOT BE SHIT
 779 2011-06-18 07:23:03 <Gray> easy storage
 780 2011-06-18 07:23:08 <Diablo-D3> SCALES FOREVER
 781 2011-06-18 07:23:11 <phantomcircuit> mongo is excellent for storing bullshit that's fine if 1% just disappears
 782 2011-06-18 07:23:21 dr_win has joined
 783 2011-06-18 07:23:46 <Gray> i power a search store with it
 784 2011-06-18 07:24:00 <phantomcircuit> w wat
 785 2011-06-18 07:24:01 <Gray> didn't have any write errors though over 800000 documents
 786 2011-06-18 07:24:04 <phantomcircuit> a wat
 787 2011-06-18 07:24:26 <Gray> music search engine, all the tracks are stored in mongo
 788 2011-06-18 07:24:40 <phantomcircuit> yeah how many servers is that on and how many disks
 789 2011-06-18 07:24:48 <Gray> spread across 2
 790 2011-06-18 07:24:55 <Gray> i mean i'm not talking using it for web scaling
 791 2011-06-18 07:24:57 <phantomcircuit> servers? or disks
 792 2011-06-18 07:25:01 <bx_> lets get to the task ... bit coin.. what os should i get
 793 2011-06-18 07:25:11 <phantomcircuit> bx_, linux of some type
 794 2011-06-18 07:25:11 <Gray> just as a db backend for a bitcoin site
 795 2011-06-18 07:25:30 <bx_> yah but they say it wont work with money
 796 2011-06-18 07:25:30 <phantomcircuit> Gray, just dont store bitcoin values in it
 797 2011-06-18 07:25:42 <phantomcircuit> Gray, store documents or other bs that can get dropped
 798 2011-06-18 07:25:59 <phantomcircuit> bx_, ok you're clearly a troll
 799 2011-06-18 07:26:17 <bx_> no im not im just high as fuck
 800 2011-06-18 07:26:23 <bx_> You guys tore him a new one for using mongo
 801 2011-06-18 07:26:28 <bx_> :PO~
 802 2011-06-18 07:26:46 <Gray> i do a lot of shit with it though it's good to know
 803 2011-06-18 07:27:39 <phantomcircuit> Gray, mongo has no meaningful write guarantees or transactional support
 804 2011-06-18 07:28:40 <Gray> doesn't it drop an error when a write fails though?
 805 2011-06-18 07:29:01 <Gray> true. the system is designed to be pretty simple. handling money though you make a good point it would be better to go with proven tech
 806 2011-06-18 07:29:34 <phantomcircuit> Gray, no it silently fails
 807 2011-06-18 07:29:59 falafell has joined
 808 2011-06-18 07:30:26 <Gray> weird, like i said i didn't notice any errors but 800000 isn't a large number of documents. could have just got lucky
 809 2011-06-18 07:32:01 guest9 has joined
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 811 2011-06-18 07:37:33 <bx_> so yeah
 812 2011-06-18 07:37:38 <bx_> automating instant withdrawls
 813 2011-06-18 07:37:40 <bx_> via php
 814 2011-06-18 07:37:44 <bx_> anyone havegood dox on it for nix
 815 2011-06-18 07:38:18 <Gray> its just through a json rpc
 816 2011-06-18 07:38:35 <bx_> im high as fidduck
 817 2011-06-18 07:38:38 <bx_> sorry.
 818 2011-06-18 07:39:56 echelon has joined
 819 2011-06-18 07:40:40 <echelon> what was the python tool gavin made that reads from the wallet and stuff?
 820 2011-06-18 07:41:01 <jgarzik> bitcointools
 821 2011-06-18 07:41:11 <echelon> cool, thanks
 822 2011-06-18 07:42:25 loopyduck has left ()
 823 2011-06-18 07:42:30 <echelon> wait, does it get the data via json or by directly reading the files?
 824 2011-06-18 07:42:55 <jgarzik> echelon: directly reading the files.  you must shut down bitcoin to use it.
 825 2011-06-18 07:43:06 <random_cat> for your viewing pleasure: http://kimgrahamstudios.com/troll-15.html
 826 2011-06-18 07:43:14 <echelon> eh, even on linux?
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 833 2011-06-18 07:45:58 <Kireji> ;;bc,mtgox
 834 2011-06-18 07:45:59 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.2,"low":13,"vol":83570,"buy":15.11,"sell":15.1503,"last":15.1101}}
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 844 2011-06-18 08:13:04 <wasabi1> god the byte ordering in this is nutty
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 848 2011-06-18 08:16:16 <phantomcircuit> wasabi, lol, you get to the point in some of the code where it flip flosp ordering multiple times?
 849 2011-06-18 08:18:37 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
 850 2011-06-18 08:18:37 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.2,"low":13,"vol":82540,"buy":15.4111,"sell":15.5,"last":15.5}}
 851 2011-06-18 08:18:41 <wasabi1> Naw. I found my issue.
 852 2011-06-18 08:18:52 <wasabi1> I think it's shitty network ordering in the JSON-API?
 853 2011-06-18 08:19:20 <wasabi1> The values are big endian. Which is correct. Except that they're not really specifically ordered.
 854 2011-06-18 08:19:32 <wasabi1> It's just a big blitz on the entire string, as if it's a bunch of 4 bit words.
 855 2011-06-18 08:20:11 <wasabi1> So yeah, Version comes out as 0,0,0,1... which is proper. But the hashes get reversed... not the entire has, mind you, but each int32 sized word.
 856 2011-06-18 08:20:29 <wasabi1> And the padding at the end, which is supposed to be 64 bits, is flipped as if it was two 32 bit words.
 857 2011-06-18 08:21:20 <edcba> isn't satoshi wrong in saying we should create more chains instead of using bitcoin's chain for alternate apps ?
 858 2011-06-18 08:21:34 <sipa> no
 859 2011-06-18 08:21:42 <edcba> because that weakens all the chains
 860 2011-06-18 08:21:52 <sipa> it doesn't
 861 2011-06-18 08:22:13 <sipa> read mike's post about alternate chains
 862 2011-06-18 08:22:22 <edcba> if everybody works on same chain calc power in it is greater
 863 2011-06-18 08:22:34 <edcba> if you have 2 chains it's twice easier to attack
 864 2011-06-18 08:22:37 <sipa> no
 865 2011-06-18 08:22:43 <edcba> where is that post ?
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 867 2011-06-18 08:23:44 <sipa> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.0
 868 2011-06-18 08:23:45 <pusle> not if chains have to agree, then you have to crack both
 869 2011-06-18 08:26:01 <edcba> if chains have to agree that means i need to inject something into bitcoin chain ?
 870 2011-06-18 08:26:09 <edcba> or just in the alternate chain ?
 871 2011-06-18 08:26:25 <pusle> sorry, it was just a side note
 872 2011-06-18 08:27:57 <pusle> maybe a "super hash" or something
 873 2011-06-18 08:28:11 <pusle> as not to bloat the bitcoin chain with all kinds of non bitcoin related stuff
 874 2011-06-18 08:28:21 <pusle> which I guess is what you're discussing
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 876 2011-06-18 08:28:37 <pusle> "checkpoints"
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 879 2011-06-18 08:33:06 <edcba> mike's post is basically saying create a tx in bitcoin then do your stuff in the other chain
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 881 2011-06-18 08:33:32 <sipa> no tx in main chain
 882 2011-06-18 08:34:23 <sipa> unless you want to model a transaction that is partially financial
 883 2011-06-18 08:35:52 <edcba> i agree with mike that bitcoin is too specific to be used as a general timestamping/proof service
 884 2011-06-18 08:37:29 <edcba> ok it seems mike's solution is basically send bitcoins to non recoverable address and link that to your chain
 885 2011-06-18 08:37:57 <edcba> but i don't see how that makes the alternate chain safer
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 901 2011-06-18 08:49:03 <sipa> edcba: forget that, that is just to illustrate the possibility of sending coins to the other chain, but there are other ways
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 903 2011-06-18 08:49:53 <sipa> the real magic is in putying hashes of the alternate chain in the financial chain's coinbasr
 904 2011-06-18 08:50:20 <sipa> "locking" it with all its hash power
 905 2011-06-18 08:50:27 <amiller> what's the marignal cost of bytes added to a block chain
 906 2011-06-18 08:50:27 <edcba> but then it's quite ugly design
 907 2011-06-18 08:50:30 <amiller> is that easy to estimate?
 908 2011-06-18 08:50:47 <sipa> amiller: high
 909 2011-06-18 08:51:22 <sipa> the block chain is and will be a very costly thing to maintain
 910 2011-06-18 08:51:40 <amiller> but the only reason to allocate a lot of power to it
 911 2011-06-18 08:51:42 <amiller> is security
 912 2011-06-18 08:52:35 <sipa> indeed
 913 2011-06-18 08:52:38 <amiller> i guess i agree with you that the magic is in putting just hashes in there
 914 2011-06-18 08:52:58 <edcba> maybe we should make a chain with human-only solvable problems :p
 915 2011-06-18 08:53:26 <edcba> that would stop a lot of critics about bitcoin :)
 916 2011-06-18 08:53:40 <sipa> but people are willing to maintain that chain because a free electronic currency is worthwhile
 917 2011-06-18 08:54:09 <amiller> well how many people would have to share a timestamp server before it was valuable
 918 2011-06-18 08:54:13 <edcba> anyway we should have some generic chain for all others alternate chains imo
 919 2011-06-18 08:54:20 <edcba> (because bitcoin chain is doomed)
 920 2011-06-18 08:54:40 <sipa> they may not agree to do so when it's used as a file sharing service :)
 921 2011-06-18 08:54:50 <amiller> like an individual block chain is a 'security pool' in a sense
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 923 2011-06-18 08:55:17 <edcba> something with some hashPrevBlock { guidservice, guiddata } * nb
 924 2011-06-18 08:55:24 <edcba> and time etc
 925 2011-06-18 08:56:02 <pigki> has anyone successfully abstracted GPU resources from CPU resources, ala hardware passthrough in VMWare
 926 2011-06-18 08:56:07 <edcba> now the guiddata would be some hash of specific service chain
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 928 2011-06-18 08:57:18 <wumpus> a single global verification chain would be pretty cool, yes, chains would no longer compete for miners
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 930 2011-06-18 08:57:34 <amiller> i'd imagine a sort of meta-miner
 931 2011-06-18 08:57:47 <wumpus> i'm not sure how it'd work in practice, though, as the miners would still have to decide what to include for each of the child chains
 932 2011-06-18 08:57:49 <amiller> that makes it very easy to allocate a portion of your bandwidth to different block chain hashing tasks
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 934 2011-06-18 08:58:16 <amiller> wumpus, they'd go wherever they can collect the most in fees, however that's calculated
 935 2011-06-18 08:58:41 <edcba> the meta chain would only trade blocks so it wouldn't cost much in bandwidth/disk anyway
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 938 2011-06-18 08:59:21 <edcba> the block i've described if you take max nb=8 by block would be like 260 bytes
 939 2011-06-18 08:59:45 <edcba> you could accept them 10 a second that would be 2kB/s
 940 2011-06-18 08:59:52 <edcba> max
 941 2011-06-18 09:00:08 <amiller> do miners validate the whole chain
 942 2011-06-18 09:00:25 <amiller> like i know it's the current practice to dowlnoad the entier block chain, even the user client does it
 943 2011-06-18 09:01:07 <edcba> yes miners validate the whole chain
 944 2011-06-18 09:01:25 <amiller> but if you stored hashes of Appcoin blocks in the bitcoin block chain
 945 2011-06-18 09:01:26 <edcba> else their block would be rejected by others
 946 2011-06-18 09:01:26 <wumpus> yes they should, that's the thing that provides security
 947 2011-06-18 09:01:28 <amiller> the miners aren't validating anything about it
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 949 2011-06-18 09:01:52 <edcba> the meta-chain would be here just to provide timestamping
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 951 2011-06-18 09:01:52 <wumpus> the miners would still have to process the subchains as well, just the clients don't have to
 952 2011-06-18 09:02:18 <edcba> each service would be free to reject any invalid guiddata/hash
 953 2011-06-18 09:02:42 <amiller> what keeps forged timestamps from showing up
 954 2011-06-18 09:02:47 <amiller> ownership of a private key i suppose
 955 2011-06-18 09:03:32 <edcba> clients don't accept blocks too much further from network time
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 971 2011-06-18 09:24:51 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 972 2011-06-18 09:25:01 <gribble> 131593
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 985 2011-06-18 09:42:43 <striklov> Hi guys. I have setup a tiny test pool using pushpool 0.5 and clients can connect + I received a small test transaction. I have a couple of questions though
 986 2011-06-18 09:43:02 <striklov> the config for the bitcoin daemon should have gen=0 correct ?
 987 2011-06-18 09:43:44 <striklov> paytxfee I set to 0.01
 988 2011-06-18 09:44:17 huk has quit ()
 989 2011-06-18 09:44:21 <striklov> memcached I simply ignored and is not running
 990 2011-06-18 09:44:36 <striklov> this is just a VM so ...
 991 2011-06-18 09:45:19 <striklov> but connected miners should total a sum of around 2 GH/s at least
 992 2011-06-18 09:45:32 <striklov> I left them running overnight
 993 2011-06-18 09:46:06 <striklov> still no blocks found, I guess at current dificulty level this is expected ???
 994 2011-06-18 09:46:32 <striklov> also is IRC really a requirement ? I kind of disabled that in the config
 995 2011-06-18 09:46:49 BlueMatt has joined
 996 2011-06-18 09:48:01 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 2000000
 997 2011-06-18 09:48:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 877226.66666667 , is 3 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 17 minutes, and 9 seconds
 998 2011-06-18 09:48:18 <sipa> striklov: pretty reasonable you didn't find any blocks overnight at 2 GH/s
 999 2011-06-18 09:48:29 <striklov> ah ok :)
1000 2011-06-18 09:48:45 <striklov> then my setup might be ok
1001 2011-06-18 09:48:53 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 2000000 8h
1002 2011-06-18 09:48:54 <gribble> 0.0151717360448
1003 2011-06-18 09:49:02 <sipa> 1.5% chance to find a block in 8h time
1004 2011-06-18 09:49:09 <nathan7> Du du du du
1005 2011-06-18 09:49:10 <striklov> nice
1006 2011-06-18 09:49:15 <nathan7> I mean, hi
1007 2011-06-18 09:49:29 <striklov> ;)
1008 2011-06-18 09:50:11 <striklov> regarding the other config stuff, does it look plausible to you guys ?
1009 2011-06-18 09:50:21 <striklov> any gotchas I should be aware of ?
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1012 2011-06-18 09:52:24 <sipa> irc is not required, there are other bootstrapping mechanisms
1013 2011-06-18 09:52:40 <sipa> gen=0 is fine, you don't want your pool to be cpu mining
1014 2011-06-18 09:53:16 phlippcoin has joined
1015 2011-06-18 09:53:24 <striklov> nice :) thx sipa
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1020 2011-06-18 09:54:52 <striklov> ;;bc,prob 55883 12h
1021 2011-06-18 09:54:53 <gribble> 0.000640549419864
1022 2011-06-18 09:55:06 <fiverawr> 06:16 < luke-jr> fiverawr: addresses don't belong to accounts
1023 2011-06-18 09:55:26 <fiverawr> What is the purpose of being able to assign addresses to accounts then?
1024 2011-06-18 09:55:54 <amiller> it's just the bitcoin client being helpful i think
1025 2011-06-18 09:56:11 <amiller> strictly a local-to-your-wallet convention
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1027 2011-06-18 09:56:59 <fiverawr> sendfrom <fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount>
1028 2011-06-18 09:57:09 <striklov> ;;bc,prob 55883000 12h
1029 2011-06-18 09:57:10 <gribble> 0.473105351973
1030 2011-06-18 09:57:11 <fiverawr> This makes it sound like the coins would only come from that account
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1032 2011-06-18 09:57:50 <sipa> accounts are simply separate balances
1033 2011-06-18 09:57:59 <sipa> they do not 'own' transactions or coins
1034 2011-06-18 09:58:14 <sipa> if you do a transaction, its input will always come from all available coins in your wallet
1035 2011-06-18 09:58:30 <fiverawr> Right. But, if I "sendfrom" an account, the balance of other accounts can also decrease?
1036 2011-06-18 09:58:44 <sipa> the 'fromaccount' parameter only signifies from which balance the sent amount is deducted
1037 2011-06-18 09:58:48 <sipa> that's all
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1039 2011-06-18 09:59:30 <sipa> and you can assign incoming address to accounts, which will cause those accounts to be incremeneted with the received amount when they are addressed to that address
1040 2011-06-18 09:59:47 <sipa> but it's really just a local accounting thing
1041 2011-06-18 10:00:38 <striklov> does the gribble bot do namecoin calcs ?
1042 2011-06-18 10:01:13 <striklov> ;;nc,prob 2000000 8h
1043 2011-06-18 10:01:13 <gribble> Error: "nc,prob" is not a valid command.
1044 2011-06-18 10:01:18 <sipa> not afaik
1045 2011-06-18 10:01:21 <BlueMatt> dont think so
1046 2011-06-18 10:01:32 <striklov> ah ok np :)
1047 2011-06-18 10:02:27 <fiverawr> That still sounds like "sendfrom" doesn't really have a purpose - it can still effect the balance of other accounts ;x
1048 2011-06-18 10:02:39 <sipa> no it can't
1049 2011-06-18 10:03:10 <sipa> an account is just an accounting trick, and sendfrom only deducts an amount from the account you tell it to
1050 2011-06-18 10:03:36 <sipa> just know that it's completely independent from which address the used coins are last sent to
1051 2011-06-18 10:03:51 <sipa> *were
1052 2011-06-18 10:04:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you broke coding style in c02ec5
1053 2011-06-18 10:04:29 <BlueMatt> someone is too used to kernel coding style ;)
1054 2011-06-18 10:06:34 th3sl33p3r has quit (Quit: th3sl33p3r)
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1056 2011-06-18 10:08:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: not more than the code was already non-conformant
1057 2011-06-18 10:09:19 <BlueMatt> true, just wanted to point it out, not that I care in the least...Id love to see us switch to that bracket style as its what I tend to use on other projects
1058 2011-06-18 10:09:22 <BlueMatt> but its not worth it
1059 2011-06-18 10:09:39 <sipa> indeed
1060 2011-06-18 10:10:15 <sipa> oh wait, it was conforming - nvm
1061 2011-06-18 10:10:35 <sipa> except it should have been 'str' instead of 's' ;)
1062 2011-06-18 10:10:47 th3sl33p3r has joined
1063 2011-06-18 10:11:00 <BlueMatt> also, jgarzik 6f460ba broke a ton of translations
1064 2011-06-18 10:11:31 <BlueMatt> namely all of them except sv
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1076 2011-06-18 10:32:53 <D0han> when we will have client with reduced blockchain?
1077 2011-06-18 10:33:12 <BlueMatt> not yet
1078 2011-06-18 10:33:40 <D0han> i cant tell to anybody 'hey, grab this software, it will download 3gb useless for you piece of shit, then you can do anything'
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1080 2011-06-18 10:34:46 <BlueMatt> yea its no where near that big yet
1081 2011-06-18 10:35:03 <D0han> yeah
1082 2011-06-18 10:35:04 <D0han> yet
1083 2011-06-18 10:35:05 <D0han> ..
1084 2011-06-18 10:35:22 <D0han> its ~300mb now
1085 2011-06-18 10:36:01 <mtrlt> it's gonna be that big soon tho :P
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1090 2011-06-18 10:38:11 <D0han> just 2 months ago i had 1Mbps internet (down, up was smth like 0.25 of that)
1091 2011-06-18 10:38:41 <D0han> i fail to see downloading 1gb chain on this
1092 2011-06-18 10:39:03 <mtrlt> yeah
1093 2011-06-18 10:39:19 <wumpus> there are a lot of plans about reducing the  size of the downloaded chains for simple clients, but as it isn't that big yet, other things are  priority of the dev team right now (such as wallet security)
1094 2011-06-18 10:39:20 <mtrlt> i think it's one of the bigger issues right now :p
1095 2011-06-18 10:40:03 <wumpus> I don't think it's a big proble, -- if you don't want to download the chain, you could copy it from someone else in another way
1096 2011-06-18 10:41:02 <mtrlt> from whom :)
1097 2011-06-18 10:41:21 <wumpus> someone else that uses bitcoin, as you can verify the entire chain you don't even have to trust them
1098 2011-06-18 10:41:35 <mtrlt> if you know no-one
1099 2011-06-18 10:41:37 <D0han> it can work for me that way, but not for mortals
1100 2011-06-18 10:41:51 <wumpus> D0han: for mortals it'd just need a somewhat fancier interface
1101 2011-06-18 10:41:52 <mtrlt> that, too.
1102 2011-06-18 10:42:01 <wumpus> work is done on that, too...
1103 2011-06-18 10:42:04 <mtrlt> nobodys gonna be copying block chains from each other :p
1104 2011-06-18 10:42:25 <wumpus> because 99% of people is ok with just downloading them
1105 2011-06-18 10:42:40 <wumpus> heck, a large part of people streams movies these days
1106 2011-06-18 10:42:54 <D0han> probably stupid & obvious question, but is chain compressed?
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1108 2011-06-18 10:43:26 <wumpus> I don't know, interesting question/idea though
1109 2011-06-18 10:43:32 <D0han> wumpus: i know people arond using GPRS to get piece of internet
1110 2011-06-18 10:43:38 <D0han> also, they have download limits
1111 2011-06-18 10:43:59 <D0han> around*
1112 2011-06-18 10:44:03 <Theo`> D0han: it consists mainly of public keys and hashes which do not compress very well
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1114 2011-06-18 10:44:05 <wumpus> D0han: yes, I don't deny it is problem, but it doesn't have the priority at the moment
1115 2011-06-18 10:44:53 <Theo`> D0han: so the answer is no because it would be pointless
1116 2011-06-18 10:45:14 <D0han> big entrophy, right
1117 2011-06-18 10:45:36 <wumpus> it might still compress a bit though, someone should try it out :)
1118 2011-06-18 10:49:30 <D0han> i just realised that reducing chain wont reduce download usage
1119 2011-06-18 10:50:00 <D0han> client still need to download every block and then decide to save it to hdd or /dev/nul
1120 2011-06-18 10:53:33 <wumpus> depends, with some protocol changes I guess it could only request the blocks it is interested in.. though a careless implementation of that could reduce privacy (ie, sending your public addresses)
1121 2011-06-18 10:54:41 avalone has quit ()
1122 2011-06-18 10:55:05 <D0han> and then we need to trust that its legit, or requesting few times same information from several sources
1123 2011-06-18 10:55:11 <D0han> and still trusting..
1124 2011-06-18 10:56:03 <Theo`> you need the whole block chain to do any verification
1125 2011-06-18 10:56:23 <Theo`> especially to ensure that coins are not double-spent
1126 2011-06-18 10:56:49 <Theo`> otherwise you need to rely on fully trusted nodes which have the block chain and perform the verification for you
1127 2011-06-18 10:57:06 <wumpus> someone needs the whole blockchain, not neccesarily you (though yes, you'd be trusting other people a bit)
1128 2011-06-18 10:57:17 <Theo`> a bit? fully
1129 2011-06-18 10:57:19 <wumpus> for a small-footprint mobile client that could work
1130 2011-06-18 10:57:28 <wumpus> but not for the main client
1131 2011-06-18 10:57:32 <Theo`> yep
1132 2011-06-18 10:57:38 <D0han> well, that sucks
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1140 2011-06-18 11:06:53 tenbatsu has joined
1141 2011-06-18 11:06:56 <tenbatsu> anyone know the proper json for submitting an ASK via the mtgox websocket api?
1142 2011-06-18 11:08:26 dvide has joined
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1154 2011-06-18 11:42:29 <mrb_> $ bitcoind getdifficulty
1155 2011-06-18 11:42:29 <mrb_> 876954.49351354
1156 2011-06-18 11:42:46 <mrb_> ;;bc,diff
1157 2011-06-18 11:42:46 <gribble> 877226.66666667
1158 2011-06-18 11:43:07 <mrb_> why the discrepancy?
1159 2011-06-18 11:45:29 tenbatsu has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1160 2011-06-18 11:45:38 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1161 2011-06-18 11:45:39 <gmaxwell> mrb_: rounding bug that was fixed in .22
1162 2011-06-18 11:45:58 <mrb_> makes sense. .66666667 seemed to unlikely
1163 2011-06-18 11:46:04 <lfm> mrb_: gribble is still using an old version that was inaccurate
1164 2011-06-18 11:46:42 <gmaxwell> s/gribble/blockexplorer/
1165 2011-06-18 11:46:55 <lfm> well both of em
1166 2011-06-18 11:47:12 subpar has joined
1167 2011-06-18 11:47:20 <gmaxwell> lfm: I think gribble gets most (all?) of its bitcoin data from blockexplorer
1168 2011-06-18 11:47:40 <lfm> ya ok so gribble is using it indirectly
1169 2011-06-18 11:47:42 <ius> !rates
1170 2011-06-18 11:47:45 <ius> er
1171 2011-06-18 11:47:47 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1172 2011-06-18 11:51:22 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1174 2011-06-18 11:56:26 shpxnvz has quit (Quit: shpxnvz)
1175 2011-06-18 11:56:31 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r412ce18 / (2 files in 2 dirs): One last optimization - http://bit.ly/k2rppv
1176 2011-06-18 11:57:54 TheZimm has joined
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1179 2011-06-18 12:00:28 <D0han> where i can get source of bitcoind?
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1185 2011-06-18 12:05:05 <diki> why is it that i can't run two instances of bitcoin? One is in a VM the other on my host machine yet it get's 0 connections if both are running
1186 2011-06-18 12:05:54 E-sense has joined
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1188 2011-06-18 12:08:22 <diki> someone?
1189 2011-06-18 12:09:14 <cacheson> diki: it can be hard to get connected if you don't have port forwarding enabled
1190 2011-06-18 12:09:26 <Theo`> diki: did you try to change port on one of both?
1191 2011-06-18 12:10:05 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
1192 2011-06-18 12:10:06 <gribble> 131614
1193 2011-06-18 12:10:11 <diki> if the bitcoin in the vm machine can connect
1194 2011-06-18 12:10:17 <diki> no reason the one on the host machine can't
1195 2011-06-18 12:11:40 <Theo`> well, port can be taken
1196 2011-06-18 12:11:42 freakazoid has joined
1197 2011-06-18 12:11:49 <diki> the port is one and cannot be changed
1198 2011-06-18 12:12:27 <Theo`> does the VM have a different IP address than the host?
1199 2011-06-18 12:12:30 <erle-> how can i build bitcoin without miniupnp?
1200 2011-06-18 12:12:45 Nicksasa is now known as Sleep!~Nicksasa@178-117-211-223.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
1201 2011-06-18 12:12:46 <diki> theo:it uses NAT
1202 2011-06-18 12:14:03 <Theo`> so host assigns port for VM and Bitcoin on host can't bind to port anymore
1203 2011-06-18 12:14:28 <diki> the bitcoin program in the VM is running
1204 2011-06-18 12:14:35 <gmaxwell> erle-: commnt out the usepnp line in the makefile
1205 2011-06-18 12:14:38 <diki> if i try to start the one on the host
1206 2011-06-18 12:14:42 <diki> there are no connections
1207 2011-06-18 12:14:53 <Theo`> yes, thats what you said
1208 2011-06-18 12:15:06 <Theo`> and I explained that one port can only be used by one Bitcoin instance
1209 2011-06-18 12:15:13 <gmaxwell> diki: what version of bitcoin?
1210 2011-06-18 12:15:17 <diki> .21
1211 2011-06-18 12:15:27 <gmaxwell> Yea. Go have a cup of coffee.
1212 2011-06-18 12:15:35 <diki> i dont drink coffee
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1214 2011-06-18 12:15:50 <erle-> gmaxwell, oh no, and I asked myself why "export USE_UPNP= " did not have any effect
1215 2011-06-18 12:16:00 <gmaxwell> .21 still has the connect timeout bug. Getting connections right after startup is a matter of luck.
1216 2011-06-18 12:16:16 <diki> if i stop the other bitcoin instance i will get connection right away
1217 2011-06-18 12:16:17 nocreativenick1 has joined
1218 2011-06-18 12:16:19 <diki> 100 in fact
1219 2011-06-18 12:16:21 striklov has left ()
1220 2011-06-18 12:16:36 <diki> but i'd rather not stop the one in the VM
1221 2011-06-18 12:17:14 <luke-jr> erle-: rtfm
1222 2011-06-18 12:17:29 <gmaxwell> diki: you'll get inbound connections. I assume.
1223 2011-06-18 12:17:48 <diki> inbound?
1224 2011-06-18 12:18:22 <gmaxwell> diki: regardless, stop running old ass bitcoin.
1225 2011-06-18 12:18:24 <erle-> luke-jr, the fucking manual told me to do that
1226 2011-06-18 12:18:39 <diki> gmax:i need the gui in linux
1227 2011-06-18 12:18:52 <gmaxwell> diki: so?
1228 2011-06-18 12:19:10 <luke-jr> erle-: doubt it
1229 2011-06-18 12:19:10 <diki> is there a compiled gui of the new version?
1230 2011-06-18 12:19:22 <gmaxwell> Yes, on the website.
1231 2011-06-18 12:19:23 <lfm> diki ya
1232 2011-06-18 12:19:35 <diki> last time i checked it was still ol' .21
1233 2011-06-18 12:20:02 <lfm> sez its .32
1234 2011-06-18 12:20:06 <lfm> .23 I mean
1235 2011-06-18 12:20:24 <erle-> luke-jr, current git, /doc/build-unix.txt, line 45
1236 2011-06-18 12:20:30 <luke-jr> erle-: nope, it says nothing about export bs
1237 2011-06-18 12:20:32 <gmaxwell> diki: I can only guess your issue is something like, "VMed instance gets on IRC and people try to connect to that port but the vm port is unreachable due to nat" or something goofy like that.
1238 2011-06-18 12:20:47 galaxyAbstractor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1239 2011-06-18 12:21:06 <diki> the bitcoin instance in the vm works...it has 9 connections though, but works
1240 2011-06-18 12:21:51 <gmaxwell> Sure.
1241 2011-06-18 12:21:53 <luke-jr> erle-: make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
1242 2011-06-18 12:21:53 <diki> .32 on windows i.e the host machine seems to give me 1 connection
1243 2011-06-18 12:22:30 ouah has joined
1244 2011-06-18 12:22:40 <diki> wait, we have movement
1245 2011-06-18 12:22:46 <gmaxwell> Yep.
1246 2011-06-18 12:23:28 <diki> stop writing these short words and write a couple of lines
1247 2011-06-18 12:23:40 joepie91 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1248 2011-06-18 12:24:13 <doublec> why
1249 2011-06-18 12:24:56 <gmaxwell> I probably still have the longest average line length of anyone in the channel.
1250 2011-06-18 12:25:17 <doublec> and with a high signal to noise ratio
1251 2011-06-18 12:25:36 <gjs278> I have the shortest
1252 2011-06-18 12:25:48 airfox has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1253 2011-06-18 12:26:36 <gmaxwell> Debatable.   In any case, diki is it working now?  Getting connections quickly is a little hit or miss, more miss than hit in older versions.
1254 2011-06-18 12:26:55 airfox has joined
1255 2011-06-18 12:27:33 <diki> got 18
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1263 2011-06-18 12:37:13 <D0han> Public channel logs: http://bit.ly/cdmwSu
1264 2011-06-18 12:37:16 <D0han> i see 404 here
1265 2011-06-18 12:37:42 ff has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1283 2011-06-18 13:17:23 <sprash> Hi! Could somebody tell me how pools protect against block witholding?
1284 2011-06-18 13:19:43 <mtrlt> the pools give the miners work that already includes the coinbase transaction that gives the money to the pool. or wherever the pool wants it to go.
1285 2011-06-18 13:19:53 ThomasV has joined
1286 2011-06-18 13:20:02 <mtrlt> the miners can't change that, since they're only actually given a hash of the transactions.
1287 2011-06-18 13:20:11 HIKZIDprao has joined
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1290 2011-06-18 13:24:38 <sprash> Ok. Sounds reasonable. But why are all the small pay per share pools clising (like swepool and bitpenny) because of block withholding?
1291 2011-06-18 13:24:48 <sprash> *closing
1292 2011-06-18 13:25:02 <mtrlt> because the miner can know whether his share results in a block.
1293 2011-06-18 13:25:14 <mtrlt> just by comparing the hash to the network's current target.
1294 2011-06-18 13:26:18 <mtrlt> and can decide not to send the share back to the pool based on that
1295 2011-06-18 13:26:25 <ius> Not submitting the solution doesn't help either party though
1296 2011-06-18 13:27:26 <gmaxwell> ius: it helps you if you want to make a pool look like a cheater.
1297 2011-06-18 13:28:38 <ius> How?
1298 2011-06-18 13:29:46 <gmaxwell> A pool can easily steal from its members by simply inflating the share count "oh look, I got 10000 shares, so you get N/10000 payout" and taking the payout from the fake shares for itself.
1299 2011-06-18 13:29:49 <mtrlt> ius: it doesn't help either party yes.
1300 2011-06-18 13:29:57 <mtrlt> ius: but it anti-helps the pool
1301 2011-06-18 13:30:05 kluge has joined
1302 2011-06-18 13:30:10 <mtrlt> and the miner might get some satisfaction outta that
1303 2011-06-18 13:30:27 f33x has joined
1304 2011-06-18 13:30:29 <ius> Yes, true
1305 2011-06-18 13:31:01 <ius> gmaxwell: Sure, but that's not related to witholding a block
1306 2011-06-18 13:31:12 <ius> But still an easy way to cheat
1307 2011-06-18 13:31:13 <gmaxwell> ius: Yes it is.
1308 2011-06-18 13:31:35 <gmaxwell> Say I run pool X, and I want to make pool Y look guilty of the above.
1309 2011-06-18 13:31:52 <gmaxwell> I just mine on Y (or proxy some of my users to Y) and filter good solutions.
1310 2011-06-18 13:32:09 <gmaxwell> Now Y is indistinguishable from a cheater in terms of its payout.
1311 2011-06-18 13:32:24 <mtrlt> and Y is gonna run out of money if it's a PPS pool :P
1312 2011-06-18 13:32:42 <gmaxwell> Yup.
1313 2011-06-18 13:33:10 <gmaxwell> and since you're still getting paid, it's not too expensive an attack.
1314 2011-06-18 13:33:34 brooss has joined
1315 2011-06-18 13:33:47 <ius> Oh like that. Yeah I see your point then :)
1316 2011-06-18 13:34:07 DukeOfURL has joined
1317 2011-06-18 13:34:40 <ius> Although you'd need a fair share of a total pool's capacity before you have statistically significant 'proof' of them cheating
1318 2011-06-18 13:35:27 <mtrlt> and then people could accuse somebody of holding good solutions :p
1319 2011-06-18 13:35:31 <mtrlt> also.
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1323 2011-06-18 13:38:27 <sprash> Is it possible to test if you have a cheater or not by resubmitting a solved block to all pool members and checking who responds?
1324 2011-06-18 13:40:29 <mtrlt> possibly
1325 2011-06-18 13:40:44 <mtrlt> but that is not cheat-proof either :p
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1331 2011-06-18 13:46:25 <diki> honestly....luke-jr has no sense of design...
1332 2011-06-18 13:48:00 <gjs278> firing a rocket launcher at diki
1333 2011-06-18 13:49:35 f33x has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1334 2011-06-18 13:50:44 <sprash> mtrlt: why? how can the cheater decide if this is test work or real work?
1335 2011-06-18 13:51:16 <mtrlt> sprash: at least in some cases by looking at the block chain and looking at the work gotten from the server :p
1336 2011-06-18 13:52:14 AStove has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1337 2011-06-18 13:52:18 ex3ndr has joined
1338 2011-06-18 13:54:39 <ex3ndr> Hello, all! Could anyone explain me why i couldn't request transaction by sending getdata, but i could recieve block by the same call. I could receive transaction datas which was sent to me in connection session. If i reestablish new connection then i couldn't receive transaction...
1339 2011-06-18 13:55:00 <ex3ndr> Sorry for my english if this message is hard to read ;)
1340 2011-06-18 13:55:24 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1341 2011-06-18 13:55:55 AStove has joined
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1343 2011-06-18 13:57:35 <ex3ndr> Hmmm it start to work now
1344 2011-06-18 13:57:52 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1345 2011-06-18 13:57:56 <ex3ndr> but i couldn't request any transaction that could be found at blockexplorer
1346 2011-06-18 14:00:32 Cablesaurus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1352 2011-06-18 14:12:03 <ex3ndr> it seems that getdata for transaction doesn't work for transaction, that already included in block. Is this true?
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1355 2011-06-18 14:14:32 <gmaxwell> sprash: Thats actually a pretty excellent idea.
1356 2011-06-18 14:14:41 <gmaxwell> aww.
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1360 2011-06-18 14:24:44 <iz> that is a good idea, i agree
1361 2011-06-18 14:26:00 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
1362 2011-06-18 14:26:22 <iz> could even periodically send work from previous blocks and find the ones that don't submit a solution
1363 2011-06-18 14:26:39 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1364 2011-06-18 14:27:03 <mtrlt> yes but i already said it isn't totally cheatproof
1365 2011-06-18 14:27:10 <mtrlt> only requires a bit more involvement on the cheater's part.
1366 2011-06-18 14:27:26 <mtrlt> and how do you know all miners check all nonces anyway? :)
1367 2011-06-18 14:27:36 <iz> yeah.. cheater just has to reply for all "known" blocks
1368 2011-06-18 14:28:07 <iz> mrb_: well, it's a check to see if a malicious miner is just filtering out the correct result, instead of passing it up to the pool as it should
1369 2011-06-18 14:28:58 <iz> but a malicious miner could bypass that check by keeping a DB of all known solved blocks and responding properly in those cases
1370 2011-06-18 14:29:03 T_X has joined
1371 2011-06-18 14:29:37 <mtrlt> yes that's what i said.
1372 2011-06-18 14:30:13 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1373 2011-06-18 14:30:49 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * ra7b2a1bce54b poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: avoid delay between sending shares http://tinyurl.com/62wnjnl
1374 2011-06-18 14:30:51 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * r056849565e14 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: retry sending results http://tinyurl.com/6b4gp4s
1375 2011-06-18 14:30:52 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * r4a2ced11e415 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: some obvious locking optimizations http://tinyurl.com/6koyz2n
1376 2011-06-18 14:30:53 <gmaxwell> iz: you use the most recent solution though, so they wouldn't have much of a way to cheat that one, though you can't test users quickly that way.
1377 2011-06-18 14:31:04 <iz> yeah.. hmm.. the pool could log other shares that get CLOSE to the target difficulty.. and then use those to check for malicious miners
1378 2011-06-18 14:31:19 <mtrlt> iz: that's a slightly better idea.
1379 2011-06-18 14:31:28 <mtrlt> iz: but. what if the miner does not check the whole nonce rance?
1380 2011-06-18 14:31:30 <mtrlt> range
1381 2011-06-18 14:31:33 <gmaxwell> iz: nope, because the malicious miners will happily report the close ones.
1382 2011-06-18 14:31:35 <mtrlt> that would result in a false positive
1383 2011-06-18 14:31:46 <mtrlt> bah. also what gmaxwell said. :)
1384 2011-06-18 14:31:53 larsivi has joined
1385 2011-06-18 14:32:14 <iz> mtrlt: well, if they don't check the whole nonce range, that's fine.. they just don't have difficulty 1 shares to submit.. it only hurts them
1386 2011-06-18 14:32:42 <iz> or they have proportionally less to submit
1387 2011-06-18 14:32:46 <iz> on avg
1388 2011-06-18 14:32:47 <gmaxwell> iz: the point is that if they only check the first 2^31 they'll still work fine, but will false positive on some solutions.
1389 2011-06-18 14:32:50 <mtrlt> nope, they might just ask for new work
1390 2011-06-18 14:33:01 <mtrlt> or just increase the time every second or something
1391 2011-06-18 14:33:07 <mtrlt> it results in equal amount of shares
1392 2011-06-18 14:33:14 <mtrlt> but different behaviour in your scheme.
1393 2011-06-18 14:33:31 <gmaxwell> darnit. No one did anything about the other IRC partitioning bug I mentioned here.
1394 2011-06-18 14:34:03 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1395 2011-06-18 14:34:53 <iz> mtrlt: oh, i see.. well, in the error case.. it just calls those miners cheaters, right?
1396 2011-06-18 14:35:33 <gmaxwell> since non cheaters are way more common than cheaters.. thats not so good.
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1398 2011-06-18 14:35:49 <iz> ah
1399 2011-06-18 14:36:10 <iz> there are a lot of miners that don't check the full nonce space?
1400 2011-06-18 14:36:28 <gmaxwell> no cpu miner will, for example.
1401 2011-06-18 14:36:55 <gmaxwell> er, well ones with longpoll might.
1402 2011-06-18 14:37:13 <iz> oh, right
1403 2011-06-18 14:38:49 <mtrlt> and my miner checks as much as it can in one second, then increments the time :p
1404 2011-06-18 14:39:15 <iz> ah yeah.. the miners that do their own timestamp would mess that up also
1405 2011-06-18 14:40:16 ajf is now known as offline!~ajf@78.129.159.151|ajf
1406 2011-06-18 14:40:26 coco has joined
1407 2011-06-18 14:40:43 MrTiggr has joined
1408 2011-06-18 14:40:43 <coco> Hmmm, is there a miner in here that could help me a bit?
1409 2011-06-18 14:42:04 <MrTiggr> Shhhh... it's a library *tumbleweed rolls across #bitcoin-dev screen*
1410 2011-06-18 14:42:04 k^^ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
1411 2011-06-18 14:42:04 molecular has joined
1412 2011-06-18 14:43:10 <MrTiggr> hey coco ... not much of a miner but maybe i can help since it's so quiet
1413 2011-06-18 14:44:39 <krekbwoy> how does a mining server verify the hash if the mining client updates the timestamp itself?
1414 2011-06-18 14:45:05 <[7]> the mining client will send the whole data to the server, not just the nonce
1415 2011-06-18 14:45:10 <iz> krekbwoy: the mining client passes back the full block header it hashed to find the solution
1416 2011-06-18 14:45:42 <krekbwoy> ah
1417 2011-06-18 14:45:45 prax has joined
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1419 2011-06-18 14:45:45 prax has joined
1420 2011-06-18 14:47:11 <krekbwoy> the whole header or just the hash of the header?
1421 2011-06-18 14:47:20 <iz> the whole header
1422 2011-06-18 14:47:39 <krekbwoy> alright
1423 2011-06-18 14:47:43 <[7]> the hash isn't passed to the server, the server will hash the data by itself and verify that it meets the difficulty
1424 2011-06-18 14:48:16 <MrTiggr> ??? [7] ...i think u guys might be chatting on a topic i wanted to talk about .....
1425 2011-06-18 14:48:31 <MrTiggr> can u tell me what validation the server does against the nonce and the solution
1426 2011-06-18 14:48:43 <iz> you mean pushpool?
1427 2011-06-18 14:48:52 <krekbwoy> I was checking how the phoenix miner posts data
1428 2011-06-18 14:49:01 <coco> anyone in here mining with 2 gpu on 1 motherboard?
1429 2011-06-18 14:49:01 <krekbwoy> and what I get in wireshark is {"params": ["000000010dbb81d4c7a7588d65b39aa0994b2c5a29aa57358049f9d70000000d00000000d2af65c9afe8604b2c24fd9332009a473e3ff73f4304a4e3e33cac41549c5e3d4dfcb7f61a1321852a53d911000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"], "method": "getwork", "id": 1}
1430 2011-06-18 14:49:10 <krekbwoy> coco: yes
1431 2011-06-18 14:49:26 <krekbwoy> that only looks like the header
1432 2011-06-18 14:49:29 danbri has joined
1433 2011-06-18 14:49:45 <MrTiggr> my thoughts too krekbwoy
1434 2011-06-18 14:50:11 <iz> krekbwoy: yeah, so the first 640 bits are the header
1435 2011-06-18 14:50:18 <iz> 80 bytes
1436 2011-06-18 14:50:53 <iz> and the remaining 48 bytes are like.. padding?  i think.. for the sha256 hashing.. but not 100% sure about that yet
1437 2011-06-18 14:51:23 <iz> ah yeah.. that seems right though
1438 2011-06-18 14:51:33 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/gmaxwell/bitcoin/commit/b1fc3250e1be42f69c595a55b517283bff910563  < fun fun
1439 2011-06-18 14:51:43 <MrTiggr> the server only needs the header i thought? looks the rest up in the blockchain doesn't it ? or maybe i am waaay of topic to u
1440 2011-06-18 14:52:22 <iz> all it needs is the header, it already has the block it was looking for (like all the transactions)
1441 2011-06-18 14:52:32 <krekbwoy> yes
1442 2011-06-18 14:52:52 <luke-jr> diki: no u
1443 2011-06-18 14:52:58 <krekbwoy> but if the client keeps incrementing the timestamp the server would have to try and find the correct timestamp in order to verify the hash
1444 2011-06-18 14:53:12 <iz> krekbwoy: no, it's right in there
1445 2011-06-18 14:53:16 <krekbwoy> ah
1446 2011-06-18 14:53:24 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
1447 2011-06-18 14:53:25 <krekbwoy> alright, I understand now
1448 2011-06-18 14:53:26 <iz> 4+32+32
1449 2011-06-18 14:53:28 <krekbwoy> :)
1450 2011-06-18 14:54:08 <gmaxwell> Can someone else look at the pull request I just submitted (github) link above.  Unless I'm missing something I think that probably needs to be urgently fixed.
1451 2011-06-18 14:54:11 p0s has joined
1452 2011-06-18 14:54:27 no has joined
1453 2011-06-18 14:54:37 <coco> anyone mining under ubuntu here??
1454 2011-06-18 14:54:46 no is now known as SomeoneWeird_
1455 2011-06-18 14:55:23 <gmaxwell> Currently bitcoin won't attempt to connect to nodes which it hasn't seen for a while and hasn't seen on IRC, assuming that if the node were working it would see it on IRC.
1456 2011-06-18 14:55:40 <gmaxwell> That assumption wasn't great before the great IRC channel split, but it's certantly crap now.
1457 2011-06-18 14:55:50 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1458 2011-06-18 14:55:50 <[7]> coco: yes, but not with a GPU
1459 2011-06-18 14:56:25 SomeoneWeird_ is now known as ghost
1460 2011-06-18 14:56:25 <gmaxwell> I think this will result in serious clique formation.
1461 2011-06-18 14:56:32 ghost is now known as SomeoneWeird_
1462 2011-06-18 14:57:03 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell ... what r ur thoughts on the exploitablilty of bitcoin because of the use of IRC ?
1463 2011-06-18 14:57:35 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: IRC doesn't present any additional hazard at all to the best of my ability to determine.
1464 2011-06-18 14:57:55 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: So far the only people I've seen arguing otherwise were misunderstanding what bitcoin was doing.
1465 2011-06-18 14:57:57 cronopio has joined
1466 2011-06-18 14:58:12 SomeoneWeird has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1467 2011-06-18 14:58:23 SomeoneWeird_ is now known as SomeoneWeird
1468 2011-06-18 14:58:26 <MrTiggr> ?? what if *someone* could slow down the require IRC channels (join/leave flood or something) then conduct nefarius activity in the lag
1469 2011-06-18 14:58:50 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: Okay, so you are in the misunderstanding category too. :)
1470 2011-06-18 14:58:56 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: WHAT IF SOMEONE COMPROMISED THE DNS ROOT
1471 2011-06-18 14:58:58 <MrTiggr> we saw the main Mining sites DoS'd the other day while a significant amount of BTC was shifted ....
1472 2011-06-18 14:59:04 <jrmithdobbs> or something equally dumb
1473 2011-06-18 14:59:08 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: Bitcoin only uses IRC as one way of getting a list of other bitcoin nodes.
1474 2011-06-18 14:59:13 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: IRC isn't used for anything else.
1475 2011-06-18 14:59:30 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: No BTC data is sent between nodes via IRC.
1476 2011-06-18 14:59:42 <MrTiggr> ok...so polution or otherwise of that IRC would result in fake nodes being allowed on the net
1477 2011-06-18 14:59:45 <MrTiggr> or something...
1478 2011-06-18 14:59:48 <Namegduf> ...
1479 2011-06-18 14:59:55 <MrTiggr> i'm really just brainstorming here
1480 2011-06-18 15:00:00 <Namegduf> The net is open and publicly connectable anyway.
1481 2011-06-18 15:00:02 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: no
1482 2011-06-18 15:00:14 <Namegduf> And nodes aren't trusted anyway, so fake nodes can't do anything.
1483 2011-06-18 15:00:18 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: if you want 'fake nodes' you just spin up your own 'fake' nodes. Done.
1484 2011-06-18 15:00:28 <jrmithdobbs> disruption of irc services only affects brand new clients that have never connected to the p2p network before
1485 2011-06-18 15:00:33 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: see my above patch.
1486 2011-06-18 15:01:15 <MrTiggr> fair 'nuf ..like i said ...a brainstorm ....I've done some work at looking at the "number of Bitcoin Nodes"
1487 2011-06-18 15:01:24 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what's the pull number scrolling up in this terminal is slow at the moment
1488 2011-06-18 15:01:40 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: 326
1489 2011-06-18 15:01:43 <MrTiggr> and am seeing some odd numbers around periods of time when large # of BTC were stolen/looted
1490 2011-06-18 15:02:09 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: there is a pretty strong daily/weekly cycle.
1491 2011-06-18 15:02:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's hilarious because i was about to say "that's not all irc is used for" and point out that case lol
1492 2011-06-18 15:02:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i didn't realise it used it even if -noirc was in use though
1493 2011-06-18 15:02:33 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell...yes...there IS ....thats why these anomolies i see are so out of the ord
1494 2011-06-18 15:03:15 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: there being substantial variance is why different numbers are unusual?
1495 2011-06-18 15:03:27 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: So whats your data?
1496 2011-06-18 15:03:51 <iz> MrTiggr: how many datapoints do you have when large # of BTC were stolen/looted?
1497 2011-06-18 15:04:01 <gmaxwell> I'm very interested in seeing some active node trend data, because we currently have a impending node scaling issue...
1498 2011-06-18 15:04:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you sure that actually solves it
1499 2011-06-18 15:04:21 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: unfortunately my data is derived from oter sources...so i don't necessarily trust it 100% ....could IRC and it's logging capability be used to gather better data is a question i have
1500 2011-06-18 15:04:40 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yes/no.  It doesn't make the behavior great. It does make it better.
1501 2011-06-18 15:04:45 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: no because irc bootstrapping is slowly being abandonded
1502 2011-06-18 15:04:51 <MrTiggr> iz: am talking about the recent movement of 17K and 250K
1503 2011-06-18 15:05:08 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: What data have you been collecting then?
1504 2011-06-18 15:05:18 <MrTiggr> 250 looks like clear theft and i have my thoughts on how....doing reserch (whay am here)
1505 2011-06-18 15:05:28 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: ...
1506 2011-06-18 15:05:37 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: that wasn't theft
1507 2011-06-18 15:05:41 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: my data is mostly from blockexplorer
1508 2011-06-18 15:05:44 <jrmithdobbs> it was mtgox recreating a wallet
1509 2011-06-18 15:06:03 <MrTiggr> jrmithdobbs: which one
1510 2011-06-18 15:06:08 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: how have you obtained information about active clients via blockexplorer.
1511 2011-06-18 15:06:24 <jrmithdobbs> the 250K one for sure, probably the other as well
1512 2011-06-18 15:06:24 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: the only ~250k wallet motion that there has been.
1513 2011-06-18 15:06:35 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: ...seraching for origin of my other data for you now (as in actual links)
1514 2011-06-18 15:06:50 <MrTiggr> jrmithdobbs: and the 17K
1515 2011-06-18 15:07:05 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: in any case, it still is much less agressive about connecting to nodes it hasn't seen for a while, so there is still a problem.
1516 2011-06-18 15:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i think the whole addr.dat storage code needs to be completely reworked and thought out along with the broadcasting and prioritization of received addr broadcasts
1517 2011-06-18 15:07:51 <MrTiggr> jrmithdobbs: MtGoxt recreating a wallet ?? can u elabor8
1518 2011-06-18 15:08:32 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: wallet is a bdb file. when wallet gets HUGE bitcoin stop working. solution: start up bitcoind with empty wallet, xfer to address in it.  destroy old wallet. (back it up, don't really destroy)
1519 2011-06-18 15:08:37 <iz> wait.. the 250k one that lulzsec was claiming was confirmed as a mtgox wallet consolidation?
1520 2011-06-18 15:09:02 <jrmithdobbs> iz: they never "claimed" it
1521 2011-06-18 15:09:06 <iz> this one? http://blockexplorer.com/t/3kQG3xmAJC
1522 2011-06-18 15:09:09 <jrmithdobbs> the lolled at it
1523 2011-06-18 15:09:19 <jrmithdobbs> s/the/they/
1524 2011-06-18 15:09:25 <iz> well, they called attention to it and loled at it.. making it seem like they hacked a giant wallet
1525 2011-06-18 15:09:36 <iz> or were manipulating the market
1526 2011-06-18 15:09:41 <gmaxwell> iz: thats the 25k coin theft. Not the 250k wallet motion.
1527 2011-06-18 15:09:43 <MrTiggr> jrmithdobbs: i did not know that bitcoin's performance degraded like that ....  ?? why ....doesnt the use of meerkle trees prevent the bloating of wallets ?
1528 2011-06-18 15:09:50 <iz> oh, off my a scale of 10
1529 2011-06-18 15:10:18 <iz> so was that connected to allinvain?  or is that a different one also?
1530 2011-06-18 15:10:28 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: this was a wallet that had thousands of accounts in it from incoming payments.
1531 2011-06-18 15:10:34 <gmaxwell> iz: thats allinvain
1532 2011-06-18 15:10:39 <MrTiggr> iz: the 25k one was allinvain ...thats my understanding
1533 2011-06-18 15:10:43 <gmaxwell> (sort of a fitting name)
1534 2011-06-18 15:10:44 <MrTiggr> :D
1535 2011-06-18 15:10:45 <iz> ah, okay
1536 2011-06-18 15:10:49 <MrTiggr> ..makes me suss
1537 2011-06-18 15:11:31 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: i KNOW! right...i have expended some resources in tracking the wallets...it looks kinda dodgy
1538 2011-06-18 15:11:39 mosimo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1540 2011-06-18 15:11:57 <doublec> how big does it get
1541 2011-06-18 15:11:58 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: merkle trees have nothing to do with storing huge amounts of data in a single bdb file in an app that misuses the bdb api
1542 2011-06-18 15:11:59 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: so— your active node data that showing "odd numbers"?
1543 2011-06-18 15:12:03 mosimo has joined
1544 2011-06-18 15:12:17 <doublec> I see my week old wallet on my pool is 27MB so I guess it grows quite fast
1545 2011-06-18 15:12:28 <jrmithdobbs> doublec: it can ya
1546 2011-06-18 15:12:48 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: ...yes ...at the time that the xfer apparently took place (from what i can gather)
1547 2011-06-18 15:13:04 <jrmithdobbs> so basically
1548 2011-06-18 15:13:04 <MrTiggr> its hard......trustworthy info is loose on the ground
1549 2011-06-18 15:13:08 <jrmithdobbs> you don't know what you're talking about
1550 2011-06-18 15:13:19 <MrTiggr> no need for the tone d00d
1551 2011-06-18 15:13:19 <jrmithdobbs> k
1552 2011-06-18 15:13:26 jimpsson has joined
1553 2011-06-18 15:13:40 <MrTiggr> either you can educate me or you can be an asshole
1554 2011-06-18 15:13:43 TD has joined
1555 2011-06-18 15:13:47 <jrmithdobbs> i can do both
1556 2011-06-18 15:13:48 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: Gather what from what?
1557 2011-06-18 15:14:02 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: What data are you looking at, and what did it say?
1558 2011-06-18 15:14:05 <iz> heh
1559 2011-06-18 15:14:08 coco has left ()
1560 2011-06-18 15:14:12 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
1561 2011-06-18 15:14:19 <jrmithdobbs> and doing both brings entertainment into the equation for me , so no downside really
1562 2011-06-18 15:14:24 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: irc logs from chats with allinvain .....forum postings...blockexplorer data and some node activity fdata i have
1563 2011-06-18 15:14:45 <iz> jrmithdobbs: also correcting him by stating you can do both.. does both
1564 2011-06-18 15:15:03 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: that's what gmaxwell is asking what is this magical "node activity data" you keep referencing
1565 2011-06-18 15:15:11 <jrmithdobbs> iz: ;P
1566 2011-06-18 15:15:31 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1567 2011-06-18 15:16:02 <MrTiggr> i show around 2000 active nodes on average in any last 3 minutes ?? is that the kind of numbers you guys would expect
1568 2011-06-18 15:16:14 <jrmithdobbs> way low
1569 2011-06-18 15:16:31 <jrmithdobbs> define "active"
1570 2011-06-18 15:18:22 <MrTiggr> ok...oops (reads notes...off by factor 10)....20100 BTC nodes total : 19507 KNown : 17451 UP ...was a reading i noted last night
1571 2011-06-18 15:18:28 zzz04 has joined
1572 2011-06-18 15:18:44 zzz04 has left ()
1573 2011-06-18 15:18:51 <jrmithdobbs> FROM WHERE
1574 2011-06-18 15:19:12 <MrTiggr> ...hold on....did not note source...searching history
1575 2011-06-18 15:19:26 <jrmithdobbs> but yes, that sounds much more plausible
1576 2011-06-18 15:20:32 <MrTiggr> OK ...so the figures i have had passed to me for the period in question are more like 41K nodes UP  for aound an hour (again...searching for source)
1577 2011-06-18 15:20:43 <MrTiggr> ?? why would that be the case
1578 2011-06-18 15:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> what do you mean
1579 2011-06-18 15:21:13 * [7] wonders how this kind of thing would happen: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/eb30a1d000177ac576747e37a908e4b95911a0922a95eb1be3ae059af351b3c5
1580 2011-06-18 15:21:16 <MrTiggr> 41K UP as opposed to a standard reading of 17K UP
1581 2011-06-18 15:21:36 <[7]> why are there multiple inputs coming from the same address in the same transaction?
1582 2011-06-18 15:21:43 mosimo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1583 2011-06-18 15:21:46 <jrmithdobbs> [7]: change
1584 2011-06-18 15:22:02 <upb> ?
1585 2011-06-18 15:22:31 Nexus7 has joined
1586 2011-06-18 15:22:39 <upb> ahhh
1587 2011-06-18 15:22:44 <upb> the ADDRESS is te same
1588 2011-06-18 15:22:55 <jrmithdobbs> [7]: basically, people taking small payouts from pools causes that
1589 2011-06-18 15:22:56 <jrmithdobbs> is the short of it
1590 2011-06-18 15:23:02 <upb> but the from transaction and index is different
1591 2011-06-18 15:23:08 <jrmithdobbs> upb: ya
1592 2011-06-18 15:23:36 <Theo`> [7]: the relevant input is actually a transaction hash, not an address. There are different input transactions
1593 2011-06-18 15:23:39 <jrmithdobbs> ya those look like good 'ole deepbit payouts ;P
1594 2011-06-18 15:24:22 mmoya has joined
1595 2011-06-18 15:24:22 <[7]> ah, right, forgot that an address can have received coins more than once
1596 2011-06-18 15:24:52 <jrmithdobbs> it usually only does in the case of pool payouts
1597 2011-06-18 15:24:54 num1-mac has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1598 2011-06-18 15:24:54 <jrmithdobbs> though
1599 2011-06-18 15:25:05 <jrmithdobbs> really shouldn't under any other circumstances
1600 2011-06-18 15:25:28 <[7]> well, donation adresses in forum signatures etc.
1601 2011-06-18 15:26:37 <jrmithdobbs> ok ya, donation addresses and pool payouts, not much else
1602 2011-06-18 15:26:37 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
1603 2011-06-18 15:26:44 <ex3ndr> Could we get transaction directly not by retrieving block that contains it?
1604 2011-06-18 15:27:13 <jrmithdobbs> unless you just like paying fees
1605 2011-06-18 15:27:13 <jrmithdobbs> ha
1606 2011-06-18 15:27:20 <jrmithdobbs> ex3ndr: huh
1607 2011-06-18 15:28:01 <MrTiggr> https://smsz.net/btcStats/accepting
1608 2011-06-18 15:28:06 <ex3ndr> it seems that i couldn't retrieve transaction from default client if it is in block already
1609 2011-06-18 15:28:44 ajf is now known as ajf|offline
1610 2011-06-18 15:29:36 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1611 2011-06-18 15:30:04 <ex3ndr> and som my question why? Because we couldn't validate transaction without downloading all blocks =(
1612 2011-06-18 15:30:19 T_X has joined
1613 2011-06-18 15:30:25 <ex3ndr> But this will be useful for "thin" clients
1614 2011-06-18 15:31:26 tandy80 has joined
1615 2011-06-18 15:31:41 Kurtov has joined
1616 2011-06-18 15:32:32 <MrTiggr> and scr00 u ...my original quote of around 2K was correct based off that - i don't vouch for the stats only my memory of em...?? so u think around 20K UP is more realistic ??
1617 2011-06-18 15:32:59 mosimo has joined
1618 2011-06-18 15:33:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: nice clarification
1619 2011-06-18 15:33:10 * upb feels scr00'd
1620 2011-06-18 15:35:23 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Changing host)
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1622 2011-06-18 15:37:35 <joepie91> is there a bitcoincharts API?
1623 2011-06-18 15:37:38 Gray has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1624 2011-06-18 15:38:04 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: so where is this unusual data around the time of the theft?
1625 2011-06-18 15:38:09 <joepie91> nvm, found it
1626 2011-06-18 15:39:10 <gmaxwell> We really need to get UPNP turned on by default. :-/
1627 2011-06-18 15:39:25 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: json files on my box ...so then u discredit me by saying...yeah well you coulda faked em ....*sensing hostility in the rm*
1628 2011-06-18 15:39:39 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: Huh?
1629 2011-06-18 15:40:28 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: So you don't have any data. And you're just vaguely remembering seeing something 'odd', no actual numbers. And you don't have data to reflect what the normal daily cycle is?
1630 2011-06-18 15:40:28 <MrTiggr> ..sorry gmaxwell...been feeling some unluv from jrmithdobbs ....just trying to understand what stats i SHOULD expect to see
1631 2011-06-18 15:40:49 <gmaxwell> I'm just trying to figure out if you've actually seen something or if you're just speculating.
1632 2011-06-18 15:41:48 <MrTiggr> actually have data......can correct previous error sparked by jrmith's tone...only 4100 users UP as opposed to normal 2000 ish ...but still a significant hike
1633 2011-06-18 15:42:16 <jrmithdobbs> my tone sparked you to post the wrong numbers? hat?
1634 2011-06-18 15:42:17 <MrTiggr> will pastebin json files i saved at the time from above quoted url if u like
1635 2011-06-18 15:42:21 <jrmithdobbs> s/hat/what
1636 2011-06-18 15:42:43 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: just zip up the json files you saved. I'd find the data interesting.
1637 2011-06-18 15:43:02 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1638 2011-06-18 15:43:14 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell:  dropbox ok ?
1639 2011-06-18 15:43:24 <gmaxwell> okay.
1640 2011-06-18 15:43:35 ThomasV has joined
1641 2011-06-18 15:43:43 <MrTiggr> aight...i'll get onto it ....
1642 2011-06-18 15:43:51 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
1643 2011-06-18 15:44:04 <MrTiggr> in the meantime ..can u help me understand the consequenses of such data
1644 2011-06-18 15:44:11 <jrmithdobbs> with valgrind: real    17m23.032s
1645 2011-06-18 15:44:20 <jrmithdobbs> without: real    0m19.277s
1646 2011-06-18 15:44:23 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1647 2011-06-18 15:44:27 <upb> ofc )
1648 2011-06-18 15:44:38 <MrTiggr> ...so ....double the nodes are online to verify txn's during the period of a major txn ..
1649 2011-06-18 15:44:43 Gray has joined
1650 2011-06-18 15:44:50 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats a bit of an unusual slowdown, I normally see 10-20x on codec development.
1651 2011-06-18 15:45:14 <Namegduf> It varies heavily.
1652 2011-06-18 15:45:22 <upb> jrmithdobbs: i compiled a debug build of bitcoin with vc, it takes like 15 mins to start up. valgrind hooks evn more stuff
1653 2011-06-18 15:45:34 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: pretty much no consequence. Also, the "down" nodes aren't offline, they're all online in fact. They just aren't accepting inbound connections.
1654 2011-06-18 15:45:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it'sa  tight loop generating ec keys, then shoving them into a btc address-like format and base58 encoding
1655 2011-06-18 15:46:05 <MrTiggr> ?? still why the spike ??? what is the affect
1656 2011-06-18 15:46:22 <iz> jrmithdobbs: lol
1657 2011-06-18 15:46:38 jhgf has joined
1658 2011-06-18 15:46:52 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: the spike are time periods where prices are falling or rising greatly would be my guess.
1659 2011-06-18 15:47:28 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1660 2011-06-18 15:47:39 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i need to fix the sha256(sha256()) part of it to not reallocate that buffer for every call, i think that's hat was slowing valgrind the most
1661 2011-06-18 15:47:47 <jrmithdobbs> (though, as you can see, not an issue for real world)
1662 2011-06-18 15:49:27 <MrTiggr> jrmithdobbs: so how does price fluctuation effect "UP Nodes" again?
1663 2011-06-18 15:49:51 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: more people have clients connected because they're trying to xfer to/from their exchanges
1664 2011-06-18 15:50:13 <MrTiggr> 'kay...?? double the number ??
1665 2011-06-18 15:50:30 <jrmithdobbs> when price is falling from 30 to 10? easily.
1666 2011-06-18 15:50:41 <MrTiggr> i don't have data to support it but i am pretty sure the BTC was stable at 20 around that time
1667 2011-06-18 15:50:42 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
1668 2011-06-18 15:50:57 <MrTiggr> this was POST the 30-11
1669 2011-06-18 15:51:12 <jrmithdobbs> well that was just a plausible guess like i said
1670 2011-06-18 15:51:18 <jrmithdobbs> would need more data about the time frame
1671 2011-06-18 15:51:35 <MrTiggr> intersting thought...i wonder if it could account for a double of the UP nodes tho
1672 2011-06-18 15:51:45 <jrmithdobbs> i know gmaxwell has some data to correlate with so maybe he can shed some light
1673 2011-06-18 15:52:13 <jrmithdobbs> assuming your data has timestamps anyways
1674 2011-06-18 15:52:29 jeffasinger has joined
1675 2011-06-18 15:52:50 <MrTiggr> ?? if the market was stabel at 20 as i seem to recall ?? what else could account for it
1676 2011-06-18 15:53:15 <jrmithdobbs> without a pattern of behaviour it could have just been a fluke
1677 2011-06-18 15:53:19 <jrmithdobbs> tbqh
1678 2011-06-18 15:53:32 <jrmithdobbs> it could have been someone with a botnet attempting a sybil
1679 2011-06-18 15:53:36 <MrTiggr> and what effect does having double the usual nodes working make on the BTC network?
1680 2011-06-18 15:53:49 <MrTiggr> had enterd my thoughts
1681 2011-06-18 15:53:58 <jrmithdobbs> but without hashing power behind said nodes the sybil would be fairly worthless
1682 2011-06-18 15:53:58 <MrTiggr> re: bnt
1683 2011-06-18 15:54:13 <MrTiggr> ??? what if lots of GPU
1684 2011-06-18 15:54:16 <jrmithdobbs> there's a few exceptions to that
1685 2011-06-18 15:54:33 <MrTiggr> *mind thinking of recent Sony Pwnage*
1686 2011-06-18 15:54:54 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: they would need >50% of hashing power behind at least one of the sybil nodes and a way to shuffle data to it from the rest of the net to make it useful
1687 2011-06-18 15:55:11 <MrTiggr> PSN
1688 2011-06-18 15:55:14 <jrmithdobbs> so quite unlikely
1689 2011-06-18 15:55:37 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: noone outside of maybe disney or pixar has that kind of compute power in the right form
1690 2011-06-18 15:55:37 <gmaxwell> 08:45 < MrTiggr> ?? still why the spike ??? what is the affect
1691 2011-06-18 15:55:40 <gmaxwell> What spike?
1692 2011-06-18 15:55:41 <jrmithdobbs> in a single location
1693 2011-06-18 15:55:53 <gmaxwell> I don't know what spike you're talking about.
1694 2011-06-18 15:55:57 <jrmithdobbs> under the control of a single entity
1695 2011-06-18 15:56:00 davex__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1696 2011-06-18 15:56:40 frizzl has joined
1697 2011-06-18 15:56:43 hereforfun has joined
1698 2011-06-18 15:57:05 <MrTiggr> i kinda agree ....am really speculating here; there is a lot of media coverage on BTC and a few other lulzy connections out there....part of what i do is research the truth bhing this kinda thing
1699 2011-06-18 15:57:05 <frizzl> good day to you sir
1700 2011-06-18 15:57:22 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1701 2011-06-18 15:58:16 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: If that stats page ever reported 4k listening ("up") then I suspect it was broken at the time.
1702 2011-06-18 15:59:07 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: i am happy to come to that conclusion too ...my question was what to expect as a normal baseline
1703 2011-06-18 15:59:14 SomeoneWeird has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1704 2011-06-18 15:59:27 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: hbgary spotted?
1705 2011-06-18 15:59:36 <jrmithdobbs> MrTiggr: are you trying to link our social networks?!
1706 2011-06-18 15:59:37 <MrTiggr> *lol*
1707 2011-06-18 15:59:38 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
1708 2011-06-18 15:59:56 <MrTiggr> yep...i'm currently building Dox on all of u :P
1709 2011-06-18 16:00:19 <mtrlt> :D
1710 2011-06-18 16:00:46 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1711 2011-06-18 16:00:58 prot has joined
1712 2011-06-18 16:01:06 <MrTiggr> ...about to lol:
1713 2011-06-18 16:01:12 molecular has joined
1714 2011-06-18 16:01:16 <MrTiggr> *HOW RUDE*
1715 2011-06-18 16:01:26 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: I don't know of anyone reporting the data over time. Anywhere between 1500 to 4000 listening wouldn't be to surprising to me, depending on the health of the internet and time of day/day of week.
1716 2011-06-18 16:01:43 <gmaxwell> These will hopefully go way up once UPNP is enabled by default.
1717 2011-06-18 16:01:48 <MrTiggr> 'kay ...thats good info
1718 2011-06-18 16:01:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh those are just numbers listening? not total nodes?
1719 2011-06-18 16:01:59 <jrmithdobbs> then ya that sounds about right
1720 2011-06-18 16:02:06 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: "down" in that number is total nodes (I assume from IRC)
1721 2011-06-18 16:02:23 <MrTiggr> so its not abnormal behavr in ur opinion then
1722 2011-06-18 16:02:30 <jrmithdobbs> not at all
1723 2011-06-18 16:02:46 <MrTiggr> cheers....now that wasn't so hard was it :P
1724 2011-06-18 16:03:35 <MrTiggr> the next question i have is about securing wallet.dat ...any one willing to chat that one over ??
1725 2011-06-18 16:03:43 <gmaxwell> What about it?
1726 2011-06-18 16:05:53 <MrTiggr> ok..so i have a general gr0k on what is in there .... my question firstly is....does the default BTC client encrypt the wallet
1727 2011-06-18 16:06:36 <iz> MrTiggr: have you used the default btc client?
1728 2011-06-18 16:07:14 <MrTiggr> um yea but insalled it many moons ago with no update ....i can dump the contents of my wallet easily..it is not encrypted
1729 2011-06-18 16:07:27 <gmaxwell> No, not currently. There is a development branch which does. But the software is not mature yet (and actually ate a bit of someones money a while ago, demonstrating the risk of immature wallet code)
1730 2011-06-18 16:07:37 <MrTiggr> exactly my point
1731 2011-06-18 16:07:44 <gmaxwell> Whats your point?
1732 2011-06-18 16:08:05 <MrTiggr> ..so in that wallet is the PK of every account you have transacted from right ?
1733 2011-06-18 16:08:22 <MrTiggr> plus 100 spares etc..i know all that
1734 2011-06-18 16:08:30 <gmaxwell> Of every address you've generated and 100 future ones too, yes.
1735 2011-06-18 16:09:13 <MrTiggr> so if someone pwns ur wallet ...ur not just a little bit scr00d...you are totally scr00d coz it isn't even encryptd ?
1736 2011-06-18 16:09:13 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1737 2011-06-18 16:09:32 <gmaxwell> Can you define "little bit scr00d" ?
1738 2011-06-18 16:09:38 <MrTiggr> ROFL
1739 2011-06-18 16:10:06 <gmaxwell> Well, you're asking me to choose between two classes and I can't figure out how you would distinguish them.
1740 2011-06-18 16:10:44 <gmaxwell> Control of the private keys you access to the funds assigned to them.
1741 2011-06-18 16:10:49 <MrTiggr> if i was a little bit scr00d ..then there might be some time in which i could Xfer out my funds to safe wallets while an h@x0r rainbows my PK that encryptd the wallet ..... right now ...i'm very scr00d....like a LOT pregnant
1742 2011-06-18 16:10:53 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1743 2011-06-18 16:11:02 DukeOfURL has joined
1744 2011-06-18 16:11:08 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: You could still transfer your funds out if you though you were compromised.
1745 2011-06-18 16:11:17 <MrTiggr> qwikly!
1746 2011-06-18 16:11:43 <gmaxwell> No sane encryption scheme would be vulnerable to rainbow tables fwiw, but thats a tangent.
1747 2011-06-18 16:11:52 <MrTiggr> yehyeh
1748 2011-06-18 16:11:55 <MrTiggr> w0teva
1749 2011-06-18 16:12:04 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: one problem is that if the attacker could get a copy of the file, he can probably get a copy of the encryption key as well.
1750 2011-06-18 16:12:04 <MrTiggr> yu see my train of though
1751 2011-06-18 16:12:06 <iz> MrTiggr: if you can't trust your own filesystem, why would you trust your keystrokes not to be logged?
1752 2011-06-18 16:12:13 <gmaxwell> what iz said.
1753 2011-06-18 16:12:38 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: and, of course, many bitcoin users (myself included) store their wallets in encrypted volumes.
1754 2011-06-18 16:12:58 <MrTiggr> good call ... i'm speculating on what went on BTS recently (250$USD stilen blah)
1755 2011-06-18 16:13:15 <iz> MrTiggr: also, think about how many more cases there would be of ppl forgetting their encrypted wallet passwords (default behavior) vs ppl actually getting hacked
1756 2011-06-18 16:13:30 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell: if my wallet had any balance of worth it would be trucryptd 4sho
1757 2011-06-18 16:13:54 wasabi1 has joined
1758 2011-06-18 16:13:55 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: if your balance is really substantial you should take the bulk of it offline.
1759 2011-06-18 16:14:26 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell:...unless u are speculating/ on the market as an investment...which seems to be the majority of BTC right now
1760 2011-06-18 16:14:40 <MrTiggr> ...you are talking about when BTC becomes a real economy
1761 2011-06-18 16:14:47 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: in that case your balance would be in an exchange and not on your computer.
1762 2011-06-18 16:14:55 <MrTiggr> :) tru dat
1763 2011-06-18 16:15:25 galaxyAbstractor has joined
1764 2011-06-18 16:15:38 <upb> lol MagicalTux      • thermal: we checked the logs, the CSRF found by phantomcircuit was never exploited
1765 2011-06-18 16:15:50 <upb> does he log POST values or what ?
1766 2011-06-18 16:15:52 <upb> i doubt it
1767 2011-06-18 16:16:02 <gmaxwell> upb: why would you doubt it?
1768 2011-06-18 16:16:47 <gmaxwell> upb: we sure as hell log post data to $BIGWEBSITE I've helped operate.
1769 2011-06-18 16:17:20 kish has joined
1770 2011-06-18 16:17:20 <upb> because from the looks of it its just another quickly thrown together php site
1771 2011-06-18 16:18:00 <upb> oh he could have checked the referres aswell
1772 2011-06-18 16:18:26 <gmaxwell> upb: it's been attacked for a fairly long time though. You'll start logging crap the first time someone starts password bruteforcing you.
1773 2011-06-18 16:20:10 <MrTiggr> gmaxwell:  what do u guys do once you notice an intrusion....was on a client-site this wek and they said "oooh we got DDoSD again this week" .......asked to look at their logs and it seemed to be a fuzzer looking for php LFI holes (none there bit still) ...??? where would u take THAT ?
1774 2011-06-18 16:20:47 <upb> that is not an intrusion
1775 2011-06-18 16:20:47 <MrTiggr> pfft "DDOsd" ... luv how the public pik up the parlance..not
1776 2011-06-18 16:20:53 <MrTiggr> :D
1777 2011-06-18 16:21:04 hachque has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1778 2011-06-18 16:22:47 Twoheaded has quit ()
1779 2011-06-18 16:23:33 <MrTiggr> ubp: *pedant alert*  ...intrusion attempt ..h@ppy?
1780 2011-06-18 16:23:40 <upb> :)
1781 2011-06-18 16:24:06 <upb> even my 'site' which just hosts a picture gets a few scans of that every day
1782 2011-06-18 16:24:09 <MrTiggr> **double pendant correction alert** misspelt nick...apologies
1783 2011-06-18 16:24:10 jhgf has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1784 2011-06-18 16:24:47 <MrTiggr> upb: this is defene server inside DRN ...not sure how it can be a regular target :S
1785 2011-06-18 16:24:54 <MrTiggr> *defence
1786 2011-06-18 16:25:45 abragin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1787 2011-06-18 16:25:55 <MrTiggr> not really my job to be worried ...just wndrd if any1 here had an opnion
1788 2011-06-18 16:28:27 <upb> imo no point in doing anything in response to that
1789 2011-06-18 16:29:11 JRWR has joined
1790 2011-06-18 16:29:11 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
1791 2011-06-18 16:29:11 JRWR has joined
1792 2011-06-18 16:32:05 <MrTiggr> :D
1793 2011-06-18 16:32:08 <MrTiggr> outstanding
1794 2011-06-18 16:32:09 pusle has joined
1795 2011-06-18 16:32:14 <MrTiggr> thats exactly wot ive done
1796 2011-06-18 16:32:36 <MrTiggr> ..have noted it in my memory banks tho ;)
1797 2011-06-18 16:36:51 <krekbwoy> would a mining server need to keep track of the transactions included in a block at the time of a client miner getwork request in order to know which tx'ses should be included in the block?
1798 2011-06-18 16:36:51 <upb> well what can you do, install an old version of phpbb and replay the logs against it for amusement ?:P
1799 2011-06-18 16:37:11 tcoppi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1800 2011-06-18 16:37:11 <krekbwoy> either that or push new getworks whenever a new tx is added
1801 2011-06-18 16:37:16 <MrTiggr> for the LULZ u mean ?? *shock*
1802 2011-06-18 16:37:19 <wasabi1> The byte orderings of this getwork data is absolutely incomprehensible to me.
1803 2011-06-18 16:37:32 denisx has joined
1804 2011-06-18 16:39:29 <iz> wasabi1: yeah, it's funky.. sometimes the words are endian swapped
1805 2011-06-18 16:39:48 <wasabi1> Incorrectly, as far as I can tell.
1806 2011-06-18 16:39:54 <iz> uh
1807 2011-06-18 16:40:04 <wasabi1> The header makes sense. It's big. I got that.
1808 2011-06-18 16:40:10 <wasabi1> As it should be, for nbo.
1809 2011-06-18 16:40:41 <wasabi1> It's the trailing SHA256 length field that's got me confused. The SHA256 spec says the trailing length shoul dbe 64 bits, big endian.
1810 2011-06-18 16:41:12 <wasabi1> So if the data is also big endian, I'd expect teh getwork results to have the length in proper big endian order.
1811 2011-06-18 16:41:14 <wasabi1> But it's not.
1812 2011-06-18 16:41:17 XX01XX has joined
1813 2011-06-18 16:41:18 <wasabi1> It's been swapped on 32 bit words.
1814 2011-06-18 16:41:29 <wasabi1> Even though it's a 64 bit value.
1815 2011-06-18 16:41:37 <mtrlt> wasabi1: just read that into a char* array, then cast it into an uint* array and you have the data correctly.
1816 2011-06-18 16:41:49 <wasabi1> uint* array on a little endian platform?
1817 2011-06-18 16:41:52 <mtrlt> yes
1818 2011-06-18 16:42:07 <wasabi1> But that will have the improper actual int value for many fields.
1819 2011-06-18 16:42:10 <mtrlt> then you will have the last uint as 0x280
1820 2011-06-18 16:42:12 <wasabi1> Is that right?
1821 2011-06-18 16:42:20 <mtrlt> which is the size of the header in bits.
1822 2011-06-18 16:42:35 <mtrlt> no, every four bytes has been swapped in the getwork result.
1823 2011-06-18 16:42:58 <iz> yeah, that's what i told you last night, wasabi1
1824 2011-06-18 16:43:15 <mtrlt> if you use a sha256 library of some kind, usually you have to swap the bytes back before using the library
1825 2011-06-18 16:43:18 <iz> 22:35 < iz> wasabi1: 32-bit int, swap the byte order and you get 0x00000280 = 640 bits
1826 2011-06-18 16:43:20 <mtrlt> because the library does the swapping again :p
1827 2011-06-18 16:43:23 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1828 2011-06-18 16:43:41 <wasabi1> Well, I'm trying to write efficient code, so I'm trying to not do that. ;)
1829 2011-06-18 16:43:45 <mtrlt> hm
1830 2011-06-18 16:43:52 <wasabi1> I'm actually writing my own SHA256.
1831 2011-06-18 16:43:56 <mtrlt> lol
1832 2011-06-18 16:44:00 <mtrlt> well then.
1833 2011-06-18 16:44:01 <wasabi1> (actually I have, and I have it working, for test data)
1834 2011-06-18 16:44:22 <wasabi1> Doing this in .Net, and the SHA256 built in P/Invokes to the CryptoAPI on Windows.
1835 2011-06-18 16:44:23 <mtrlt> work[0] is just data[0], work[1] is data[1] where data is the uint* you just read the bytes to.
1836 2011-06-18 16:44:24 <wasabi1> which is pretty slow.
1837 2011-06-18 16:44:26 glitch-mod has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1838 2011-06-18 16:45:07 <mtrlt> etc.
1839 2011-06-18 16:45:10 <wasabi1> I think my hang up is that I don't understand what int values of the header I should actually be working with in the hash algorithm. Should the hash algorithm be receiving, for instance, '1' for the version field? Or the reverse?
1840 2011-06-18 16:45:21 <mtrlt> umm
1841 2011-06-18 16:45:34 <mtrlt> it is a little-endian value in the data
1842 2011-06-18 16:45:43 <mtrlt> so, when you pass it to sha-256 it should be 0x01000000
1843 2011-06-18 16:45:48 T_X has joined
1844 2011-06-18 16:45:50 Mononofu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1845 2011-06-18 16:45:55 <wasabi1> Okay.
1846 2011-06-18 16:46:00 <mtrlt> because sha-256 works with big-endian numbers
1847 2011-06-18 16:46:22 <mtrlt> this endianness madness is the reason it took me 3 days to write a cpu miner :P
1848 2011-06-18 16:47:27 <krekbwoy> is it "optional" to include transactions (ignore tx's except the reward tx)  in a generated block?
1849 2011-06-18 16:47:53 <mtrlt> you don't have to include any other txs than your generation tx
1850 2011-06-18 16:47:56 johnlockwood has joined
1851 2011-06-18 16:47:59 <iz> krekbwoy: yeah, the miner can decide which tx to accept in the block
1852 2011-06-18 16:48:02 <mtrlt> but you might want to in case they pay you tx fees :p
1853 2011-06-18 16:48:10 <krekbwoy> yes, indeed :)
1854 2011-06-18 16:48:48 <krekbwoy> but how does a mining server keep track of which transactions to include for a mining client
1855 2011-06-18 16:49:04 <krekbwoy> if the merkle tree changes when a new transactions is added
1856 2011-06-18 16:49:21 <iz> krekbwoy: i'm not 100% sure, but i think it just uses all the txs that are ready at that time
1857 2011-06-18 16:49:49 <krekbwoy> ok, so the server would probably have to keep track of the state of tx'ses when the getwork is beeing called
1858 2011-06-18 16:49:57 <iz> and the new transactions just go into the next block (which is updated when a new block is found by the whole network anyway, about every 10 mins)
1859 2011-06-18 16:50:59 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1860 2011-06-18 16:51:18 Sebastan has joined
1861 2011-06-18 16:51:42 Tritonio has joined
1862 2011-06-18 16:52:19 hereforfun has joined
1863 2011-06-18 16:52:44 <gmaxwell> krekbwoy: use the souce luke. mapNewBlock
1864 2011-06-18 16:54:04 zamgo has joined
1865 2011-06-18 16:55:10 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r02d54fb / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix another bug in the pushpool bug prevention code - http://bit.ly/kc276n
1866 2011-06-18 16:55:46 <wasabi1> mtrlt: See, I'm actually trying to figure this out properly, because this code will hopefully run on my friends server farm, which contains many sparcs.
1867 2011-06-18 16:55:55 <krekbwoy> ok, thanks
1868 2011-06-18 16:55:55 <Sebastan> Is this the right place to ask some questions regarding mining? Internals not how to build a rack or something... :)
1869 2011-06-18 16:56:12 <mtrlt> wasabi1: well. connect to a pool. if you get even one valid share, your code is correct. :p
1870 2011-06-18 16:57:11 <Sebastan> no... im not that far... :) Im at the point that I got a getwork-result... but have to understand some more to deal with it... :)
1871 2011-06-18 16:57:38 <mtrlt> Sebastan: take a good look at a miner, then copy :P
1872 2011-06-18 16:57:53 <wasabi1> Sebastan: Welcome to the club.
1873 2011-06-18 16:58:04 <Sebastan> *lol*
1874 2011-06-18 16:58:05 <mtrlt> i copied a lot of my code from an old poclbm's opencl kernel
1875 2011-06-18 16:58:11 <mtrlt> and diablominer's java code
1876 2011-06-18 17:00:44 <krekbwoy> gmaxwell: so if I understand the source correct, it keeps track of the state of each getwork?
1877 2011-06-18 17:01:08 Mononofu has joined
1878 2011-06-18 17:01:16 wiedi has joined
1879 2011-06-18 17:01:29 T_X has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1880 2011-06-18 17:02:01 <krekbwoy> why do you make your own miners? new features or performance?
1881 2011-06-18 17:02:15 <krekbwoy> or just curiousity maybe :P
1882 2011-06-18 17:02:33 <gmaxwell> All the existing miners are shit.
1883 2011-06-18 17:03:10 Workbench has joined
1884 2011-06-18 17:03:14 <gmaxwell> Crappy python wrappers that simply stop working _forever_ when a socket goes down due to a network outage. Really?
1885 2011-06-18 17:03:16 gsathya has joined
1886 2011-06-18 17:03:22 <midnightmagic> Sssshhh, Diablo will hear you
1887 2011-06-18 17:03:35 <jrmithdobbs> ya seriously
1888 2011-06-18 17:03:42 <jrmithdobbs> you forgot the shitty java wrappers
1889 2011-06-18 17:03:53 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: he's actually been fixing crap in his. It might be not shit someday (or at least as not shit as anything in the java enviroment can be)
1890 2011-06-18 17:04:10 <krekbwoy> is there any miner that is not shit?
1891 2011-06-18 17:04:11 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of java being shit
1892 2011-06-18 17:04:17 <jrmithdobbs> i met a walking contridiction at my new job
1893 2011-06-18 17:04:20 <jrmithdobbs> it's awesome
1894 2011-06-18 17:04:20 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,calc 450000
1895 2011-06-18 17:04:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 450000 Khps, given current difficulty of 877226.66666667 , is 13 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 42 minutes, and 57 seconds
1896 2011-06-18 17:04:35 <jrmithdobbs> someone who admires djb
1897 2011-06-18 17:04:39 <midnightmagic> Hanging out in #namecoin too long has made the anger strong in you :-o
1898 2011-06-18 17:04:39 <jrmithdobbs> AND likes the jvm
1899 2011-06-18 17:04:47 <jrmithdobbs> i was speechless
1900 2011-06-18 17:05:37 johnlockwood has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1901 2011-06-18 17:05:44 <jrmithdobbs> that's got to be a first
1902 2011-06-18 17:07:22 johnlockwood has joined
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1904 2011-06-18 17:09:59 <jine> Anyone in here that is at Dreamhack 2011 currently?
1905 2011-06-18 17:09:59 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1908 2011-06-18 17:10:42 <krekbwoy> I have a friend who work in the support
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1936 2011-06-18 17:54:53 <luke-jr> Is there a reason listtransactions doesn't show address for generation?
1937 2011-06-18 17:55:21 <IoWn3rU_> is the mtgox api working for anyone?
1938 2011-06-18 17:55:37 <IoWn3rU_> my program is hanging when trying to get a response, it was workign fine yesterday
1939 2011-06-18 17:57:06 X-Scale has joined
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1941 2011-06-18 18:00:46 <wumpus> luke-jr: because ListTransactions in rpc.cpp doesn't add it :p
1942 2011-06-18 18:01:02 <wumpus> probably because the UI doesn't show the address either
1943 2011-06-18 18:01:33 neversleep has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1944 2011-06-18 18:01:53 Guest34167 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1945 2011-06-18 18:02:21 <wumpus> but I guess it'd be pretty simple to add
1946 2011-06-18 18:09:34 arima has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1947 2011-06-18 18:09:59 _ui has joined
1948 2011-06-18 18:10:34 <luke-jr> wumpus: well, it might involve splitting it up :p
1949 2011-06-18 18:10:52 <luke-jr> right now there's a single entry even if there's multiple addresses
1950 2011-06-18 18:12:00 erle64- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
1951 2011-06-18 18:12:10 erle- has joined
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1954 2011-06-18 18:13:36 arima has joined
1955 2011-06-18 18:13:39 <FAMULUS> Is 0.3.23 crashing on macbook air for anyone?
1956 2011-06-18 18:14:14 cronopio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1961 2011-06-18 18:18:51 <denisx> FAMULUS: yeah, a friend of mine had that
1962 2011-06-18 18:19:03 <denisx> move wallet.dat away, delete all, move back
1963 2011-06-18 18:19:15 <FAMULUS> denisx: thanks!
1964 2011-06-18 18:19:17 <FAMULUS> I'll try
1965 2011-06-18 18:21:21 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1966 2011-06-18 18:21:25 hereforfun has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1967 2011-06-18 18:21:55 <wumpus> luke-jr: that's true, though it should only show the parts that actually went to one of your addresses, which is usually only one
1968 2011-06-18 18:22:15 Incitatus has joined
1969 2011-06-18 18:22:23 <luke-jr> wumpus: usually, but not guaranteed to be
1970 2011-06-18 18:23:05 <FAMULUS> denisx: that did not work
1971 2011-06-18 18:23:24 kreal- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1972 2011-06-18 18:23:50 <wumpus> luke-jr: true, one'd have to iterate over all the outputs and check isMine() for each, and emit a record if so
1973 2011-06-18 18:26:47 eoss has joined
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1975 2011-06-18 18:28:33 prot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1976 2011-06-18 18:28:34 <denisx> FAMULUS: maybe your wallet.dat is kaputt
1977 2011-06-18 18:29:40 r2k_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1978 2011-06-18 18:29:43 <FAMULUS> denisx: no I just started it with an empty /Applicaiton Support/Bitcoin folder
1979 2011-06-18 18:29:50 <FAMULUS> it made new wallet
1980 2011-06-18 18:30:33 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1981 2011-06-18 18:30:49 TheZimm has joined
1982 2011-06-18 18:30:54 <jrmithdobbs> FAMULUS: works fine for me on my 11" current gen mba
1983 2011-06-18 18:30:55 <wasabi1> Are there any pools out there that have a very low difficulty?
1984 2011-06-18 18:31:02 <wasabi1> I'd like something I can test a miner against.
1985 2011-06-18 18:31:17 <jrmithdobbs> FAMULUS: well, other than the crazy dbd io stuff, but works as well as it works anywhere
1986 2011-06-18 18:31:29 <FAMULUS> jrmithdobbs: thanks
1987 2011-06-18 18:32:02 cinch has joined
1988 2011-06-18 18:32:27 T_X has joined
1989 2011-06-18 18:32:36 <Kireji> ;;bc,mtgox
1990 2011-06-18 18:32:39 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.2,"low":13.11,"vol":51184,"buy":16.8,"sell":16.8333,"last":16.8333}}
1991 2011-06-18 18:35:36 T_X has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1992 2011-06-18 18:36:34 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
1993 2011-06-18 18:36:35 <gribble> 131668
1994 2011-06-18 18:37:56 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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2001 2011-06-18 18:43:46 <jrmithdobbs> flood protection crap is broken and needs to become a priority
2002 2011-06-18 18:43:49 <jrmithdobbs> this is ridiculous
2003 2011-06-18 18:43:54 <tandy80> hi guys ;-) I want to grab the mtgox ticker with php-curl, can someone help me please? I m struggling... Thks
2004 2011-06-18 18:44:25 <jrmithdobbs> have a client that's at block height 130854 right now (started at 130801ish and has taken 15 minutes so far t oget to this point)
2005 2011-06-18 18:44:48 <jrmithdobbs> every time it does get blocks it gets disconnected by the damned flood detection code
2006 2011-06-18 18:45:14 <jrmithdobbs> it's -connect='ed to a node that's up to date and has at least 30mbit from good node -> behind node
2007 2011-06-18 18:45:46 TheZimm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2008 2011-06-18 18:45:50 <jrmithdobbs> i'm watching debug.log and it connects, gets a bunch of useless address updates (since it's using -connect= -nolisten -noirc ...)
2009 2011-06-18 18:45:59 <jrmithdobbs> then floods itself out trying to catch up on the block chain
2010 2011-06-18 18:46:12 _ui has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2011 2011-06-18 18:46:17 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2012 2011-06-18 18:46:38 <FAMULUS> jrmithdobbs: talking about 0.3.23?
2013 2011-06-18 18:46:40 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2026 2011-06-18 18:54:36 <comboy> OT https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit/a047be85247755cdbe0acce6#diff-1
2027 2011-06-18 18:55:40 <jrmithdobbs> up to block height 131375
2028 2011-06-18 18:55:44 <jrmithdobbs> this is ridiculous
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2030 2011-06-18 18:57:12 a_meteorite has quit (Quit: http://bzfx.net/)
2031 2011-06-18 18:57:17 * Zarutian reads topic and asks himself why carrots were selected in that comic instead of say, apples. (Too much connotion of forbidden fruit perhaps ;)
2032 2011-06-18 18:57:21 moop has joined
2033 2011-06-18 19:01:55 <quellhorst> is the source code to gribble available?
2034 2011-06-18 19:01:59 Guest34167 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2035 2011-06-18 19:02:13 <jrmithdobbs> finally caught up
2036 2011-06-18 19:02:28 Guest34167 has joined
2037 2011-06-18 19:02:31 <jrmithdobbs> 30+ minutes to catch up on ~1k blocks is ridiculous
2038 2011-06-18 19:03:04 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2040 2011-06-18 19:04:16 <jrmithdobbs> 16 reconnects to get the blockchain
2041 2011-06-18 19:04:37 <jrmithdobbs> well, the last ~1k-1200 blocks
2042 2011-06-18 19:05:25 <genewitch> quellhorst: yeah it's on nanotube's git
2043 2011-06-18 19:05:28 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
2044 2011-06-18 19:05:44 <genewitch> jrmithdobbs: isn't that a function of how many connections you have? it's P2P >.<
2045 2011-06-18 19:06:00 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: 1 connection to a node on (effectively) the local network.
2046 2011-06-18 19:06:19 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: using -connect= -nolisten -noirc
2047 2011-06-18 19:06:37 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: pipe between these boxes is 30mbit
2048 2011-06-18 19:07:06 <jrmithdobbs> genewitch: this is just straight up broken flood detection code
2049 2011-06-18 19:07:10 <quellhorst> genewitch: awesome, thanks
2050 2011-06-18 19:07:36 <jrmithdobbs> block sizes have gotten big enough to where the hardcoded values for flood detection are just broken
2051 2011-06-18 19:15:15 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2052 2011-06-18 19:18:02 <jrmithdobbs> oh wow, all of those disconnects aren't flood control there's something else weird going on
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2059 2011-06-18 19:29:36 <gmaxwell> 11:45 < FAMULUS> jrmithdobbs: talking about 0.3.23?
2060 2011-06-18 19:29:43 <ericmock> I have a naming conflict trying to put a Cocoa UI on bitcoin
2061 2011-06-18 19:29:51 <gmaxwell> nothing recently has changed wrt as far as I know
2062 2011-06-18 19:30:12 <ericmock> CDB is used in db.h and in Apple's CoreServices.framework/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Headers/SCSI.h
2063 2011-06-18 19:30:24 <ericmock> I obviously have no need for SCSI stuff
2064 2011-06-18 19:30:53 dvide has joined
2065 2011-06-18 19:31:10 <ericmock> the only Apple headers I have are <Foundation/Foundation.h> and <AppKit/AppKit.h> which must be including that SCSI.h at some point
2066 2011-06-18 19:31:22 <ericmock> but I can't really get rid of <Foundation/Foundation.h> and <AppKit/AppKit.h>
2067 2011-06-18 19:31:23 <Diablo-D3> meh
2068 2011-06-18 19:31:25 <Diablo-D3> I love how people
2069 2011-06-18 19:31:28 <Diablo-D3> ask me a question in irc
2070 2011-06-18 19:31:30 <Diablo-D3> I go to answer it
2071 2011-06-18 19:31:32 <Diablo-D3> and they log off
2072 2011-06-18 19:31:49 <edcba> impatient ppl
2073 2011-06-18 19:31:50 <ericmock> and I would love to not have to change the db.h/cpp code
2074 2011-06-18 19:32:01 <ericmock> suggestions?
2075 2011-06-18 19:32:09 <edcba> playing with namespaces mayb
2076 2011-06-18 19:32:10 <edcba> e
2077 2011-06-18 19:32:12 karnac has joined
2078 2011-06-18 19:32:49 <ericmock> yea...  I was thinking that but that again means messing with the bitcoin code (I think)
2079 2011-06-18 19:33:10 josephholsten has joined
2080 2011-06-18 19:33:12 <ericmock> somehow I'd like to be able to 'undeclare' Apple's CDB
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2094 2011-06-18 19:40:52 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * r811967f5bcf6 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: more elaborate delays http://tinyurl.com/6j76mcm
2095 2011-06-18 19:40:54 Jaagu has joined
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2106 2011-06-18 20:00:33 <phantomcircuit> http://www.zerohedge.com/article/trading-over-counter-gold-and-silver-be-illegal-beginning-july-15
2107 2011-06-18 20:01:25 neversleep has joined
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2109 2011-06-18 20:04:03 Jaagu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2110 2011-06-18 20:09:31 shLONG has joined
2111 2011-06-18 20:09:48 <shLONG> hey what is being done about bitcoin theft from a development point of view?
2112 2011-06-18 20:09:50 Mononofu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2113 2011-06-18 20:10:04 <corto> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2387194,00.asp
2114 2011-06-18 20:10:19 <shLONG> unless the problem is addressed we are going to end up loosing a lot of high value investors
2115 2011-06-18 20:10:35 <ducki2p> shLONG: next release will have wallet encryption
2116 2011-06-18 20:10:39 spola has joined
2117 2011-06-18 20:10:52 <spola> hello :)
2118 2011-06-18 20:11:35 <spola> does someone has the schema of the sqlite database used by poold.py (in order to create it correctly)?
2119 2011-06-18 20:12:09 <ericmock> shLONG: well, /who/ the high value investors are might just change
2120 2011-06-18 20:12:15 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2121 2011-06-18 20:15:20 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2124 2011-06-18 20:17:46 Baller has joined
2125 2011-06-18 20:18:52 <phantomcircuit> shLONG, there is work on an encrypted wallet, but that just raises the bar slightly
2126 2011-06-18 20:19:35 T_X has joined
2127 2011-06-18 20:21:03 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: is that serious?
2128 2011-06-18 20:21:19 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: re: gold/silver?
2129 2011-06-18 20:21:22 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yes
2130 2011-06-18 20:21:27 <jrmithdobbs> what.the.fuck.
2131 2011-06-18 20:21:48 <phantomcircuit> poor people will not be allowed to trade commodities on margin after july 15th
2132 2011-06-18 20:21:55 <phantomcircuit> actually let me rephrase
2133 2011-06-18 20:22:09 <phantomcircuit> non-rhc people will not be allowed to trade commodities on margin after july 15th
2134 2011-06-18 20:22:19 <phantomcircuit> rich*
2135 2011-06-18 20:22:35 <phantomcircuit> i believe this is what you would call, complete and total bullshit
2136 2011-06-18 20:23:07 <GarrettB> anyone have that list of bitcoin sites that appear to be vulnerable to the CSRF attack?
2137 2011-06-18 20:23:17 <GarrettB> was a forum thread, I've lost it somehow
2138 2011-06-18 20:23:35 <Baller> where is the fourm?
2139 2011-06-18 20:24:08 <GarrettB> bitcoin.org/smf
2140 2011-06-18 20:24:10 <jrmithdobbs> christ
2141 2011-06-18 20:24:15 <jrmithdobbs> fuck this country
2142 2011-06-18 20:24:20 anu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2143 2011-06-18 20:24:23 <Baller> what country the us?
2144 2011-06-18 20:24:26 anu has joined
2145 2011-06-18 20:24:57 <jrmithdobbs> we have a president illegally going to war under his own definition of "acts of war" ("cyber terrorism" stuff leaked by lulzsec a couple weeks ago) with noone crieing for impeachment
2146 2011-06-18 20:25:15 <jrmithdobbs> it's now come out that not only that be he was advised that continuing action in libay required congressional action and ignored it
2147 2011-06-18 20:25:17 <GarrettB> got it nevermind
2148 2011-06-18 20:25:20 <jrmithdobbs> no calls for impeachment
2149 2011-06-18 20:25:28 <jrmithdobbs> KYC went into effect last year
2150 2011-06-18 20:25:33 <jrmithdobbs> they keep renewing the patriot act
2151 2011-06-18 20:25:36 <jrmithdobbs> private wire taps
2152 2011-06-18 20:25:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the children in #bitcoin are flooding the channel using the two bots in there.
2153 2011-06-18 20:25:47 <jrmithdobbs> s/private/private court approved/
2154 2011-06-18 20:25:57 <ericmock> man, it's like Bush is still prez
2155 2011-06-18 20:26:03 daves has joined
2156 2011-06-18 20:26:06 <jrmithdobbs> holding us citizens without charge indefinitely
2157 2011-06-18 20:26:08 <Baller> jrmithdobbs, I am right with you
2158 2011-06-18 20:26:12 <jrmithdobbs> what the fuck happened to this country?
2159 2011-06-18 20:26:18 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: seriously
2160 2011-06-18 20:26:25 <Baller> the world bankers high-jacked us
2161 2011-06-18 20:26:26 <jrmithdobbs> i voted for obama and wouldn't do it again
2162 2011-06-18 20:26:32 <cacheson> ericmock: ha, I thought he was talking about bush at first, then I remembered there's a new guy
2163 2011-06-18 20:26:33 daves has left ("Leaving")
2164 2011-06-18 20:26:35 <Baller> you voted for obama?
2165 2011-06-18 20:26:39 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the 'warrentless wiretaps' are even without the approval of the FISA court (which can even approve them _after the fact_ if they were emergencies)
2166 2011-06-18 20:26:39 <jrmithdobbs> now they're destroying commodities for the non-super-rich
2167 2011-06-18 20:26:43 <jrmithdobbs> what's fuckin next
2168 2011-06-18 20:26:59 <Baller> whats next, you don't know what's next?
2169 2011-06-18 20:27:02 <Baller> next is martial law
2170 2011-06-18 20:27:04 <jrmithdobbs> oh ya PROTECTIP
2171 2011-06-18 20:27:09 <Baller> next is foreign troops on American soil
2172 2011-06-18 20:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> how could i forget protect ip
2173 2011-06-18 20:27:23 <Baller> Next is not being able to travel in a car with out a government GPS tracker
2174 2011-06-18 20:27:26 <Baller> its just beginning
2175 2011-06-18 20:27:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: can you kick the bots out of #bitcoin the idiot children are flooding the channel using both of them
2176 2011-06-18 20:27:32 <ericmock> the problem is that Obama is probably better than the alternative
2177 2011-06-18 20:27:34 <Baller> people have to stand up for their rights
2178 2011-06-18 20:27:36 <ericmock> now or then
2179 2011-06-18 20:27:37 <pusle> why would foreign troops be on American soil? only thing you got is debt :P
2180 2011-06-18 20:27:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm as liberal (socially, anyways) as they come and this administration is fuckin up left and right
2181 2011-06-18 20:27:52 <Baller> Obama is a puppet dude
2182 2011-06-18 20:27:53 <jrmithdobbs> and noone's fuckin calling them out publically except crackpots
2183 2011-06-18 20:28:01 <Baller> no matter hwo is in office, they r are a puppet
2184 2011-06-18 20:28:19 <Baller> the people have to take back their country through state soveringty and their own persona rights
2185 2011-06-18 20:28:29 <Baller> our government been stolen by the bankers
2186 2011-06-18 20:28:40 <Baller> the bankers are incharged, they illegally gained control oevr the past 80 years
2187 2011-06-18 20:28:45 <ericmock> at least fellow had some balls:  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/06/15/2011-06-15_brink_of_history_as_ny_gay_marriage_bill_needs_just_1_vote_to_pass_trying_to_do_.html
2188 2011-06-18 20:28:54 shorty has joined
2189 2011-06-18 20:29:09 <Baller> they are trying to take away our first and second amendments, jrmithdobbs
2190 2011-06-18 20:29:09 <jrmithdobbs> srsly let the damned faggots marry already
2191 2011-06-18 20:29:20 shorty is now known as Guest90259
2192 2011-06-18 20:29:20 corto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2193 2011-06-18 20:29:22 <Baller> who cares about faggots or if they marry
2194 2011-06-18 20:29:23 <ericmock> McDonald that is
2195 2011-06-18 20:29:35 <Baller> those are the issue they distract poeple with
2196 2011-06-18 20:29:41 <Baller> while they go into the illegal wars you spoke of
2197 2011-06-18 20:29:54 <jrmithdobbs> that's still a valid one imho
2198 2011-06-18 20:29:55 <Baller> Next is having NATO troops in American cities, what do you think of that?
2199 2011-06-18 20:30:16 <Baller> its all been planned, and it in writing, hidden in bills that haven been signed into law by politicans who didnt read them
2200 2011-06-18 20:30:26 <jrmithdobbs> oh you're one of the crackpots
2201 2011-06-18 20:30:46 <Baller> what?
2202 2011-06-18 20:30:53 <jrmithdobbs> didn't stutter
2203 2011-06-18 20:30:55 <Baller> I am a crackpot? haha, wow man
2204 2011-06-18 20:31:04 <Baller> you are right about what you are saying
2205 2011-06-18 20:31:13 <Baller> the people who are in real trouble are the masses who are not prepared for whats coming
2206 2011-06-18 20:31:29 <ericmock> so, when does TX allow gay marriage jrmithdobbs ?
2207 2011-06-18 20:31:31 <Baller> like you said, obama is going into illegal wars, he doesnt care about the law
2208 2011-06-18 20:31:44 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: never
2209 2011-06-18 20:31:58 <Diablo-D3> never
2210 2011-06-18 20:32:05 <Diablo-D3> they want their gay nigger slaves
2211 2011-06-18 20:32:07 <ericmock> it's not illegal if it's not war ;-)
2212 2011-06-18 20:32:08 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: getting anything done in the tx state gov takes at least 4 years
2213 2011-06-18 20:32:20 <gjs278> when you trace it back down, gay niggers are the root of it
2214 2011-06-18 20:32:22 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: congress only meets every 2 years
2215 2011-06-18 20:32:25 <Diablo-D3> you know whats fucked up?
2216 2011-06-18 20:32:30 <Diablo-D3> OBAMA ILLEGAL WAR WAAAAAAAGH
2217 2011-06-18 20:32:33 <Diablo-D3> yet here we are
2218 2011-06-18 20:32:37 <Diablo-D3> in iraq and afghanistan
2219 2011-06-18 20:32:45 <Diablo-D3> just as "illegal war"
2220 2011-06-18 20:32:51 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: i wanted bush impeached for those too.
2221 2011-06-18 20:32:53 <Diablo-D3> yet no one bitches
2222 2011-06-18 20:32:55 <jrmithdobbs> not being hypocritical.
2223 2011-06-18 20:33:03 <Diablo-D3> and libya isnt a war
2224 2011-06-18 20:33:04 <Diablo-D3> not even close
2225 2011-06-18 20:33:12 <gjs278> in wars the other side actually has a chance
2226 2011-06-18 20:33:14 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: it is according to definitions we've set.
2227 2011-06-18 20:33:21 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: bush era definitions? sure
2228 2011-06-18 20:33:34 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: the leaked "cyber attacks" alone fall under definitions that were set in nato by us *during obama*
2229 2011-06-18 20:33:42 <Baller> Our government has been stolen and high-jacked
2230 2011-06-18 20:33:44 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: so no.
2231 2011-06-18 20:33:46 <Diablo-D3> now, if I was president, I would have just ended Ghaddafi
2232 2011-06-18 20:33:47 <ericmock> at least Obama voted against going into Iraq
2233 2011-06-18 20:33:49 Guest90259 has quit (Client Quit)
2234 2011-06-18 20:33:50 <Diablo-D3> no bombs droped
2235 2011-06-18 20:33:52 <Diablo-D3> just a bullet
2236 2011-06-18 20:33:53 <Diablo-D3> but hey
2237 2011-06-18 20:33:55 <Diablo-D3> Im economical
2238 2011-06-18 20:33:56 <Diablo-D3> afk food
2239 2011-06-18 20:34:05 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2240 2011-06-18 20:34:40 <Baller> dude, the world bankers are using our military as their pawns for their new gloabl order...
2241 2011-06-18 20:35:02 <Baller> they are destroying our currency to fund the wars
2242 2011-06-18 20:35:05 <ericmock> it's just that it takes generations to make changes...  just like I can't believe how much of a mess this bitcoin code still is ;-)
2243 2011-06-18 20:36:31 <ericmock> any large perturbation might shift you to a new equilibrium that you didn't anticipate and might not like
2244 2011-06-18 20:36:57 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: unless you're bush
2245 2011-06-18 20:37:10 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: who pretty much changed the executive branch's power over night
2246 2011-06-18 20:37:17 <Baller> dude, these presidents all operate for the same interests....
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2248 2011-06-18 20:38:56 <Baller> all these puppet's actions, Bush, Obama, Clinton... their actions were illegal, and therefore makes their actions null and void, as per the federal supreme court ruling that makes any law which is unconstutional, imeediately NULL and VOID, and it is the responsbility of the citiens to stand up against illegal actions
2249 2011-06-18 20:39:27 <ericmock> the problem is you can't just hit ctrl-z
2250 2011-06-18 20:39:29 Gray has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2251 2011-06-18 20:39:32 <knightrage> lol
2252 2011-06-18 20:40:44 <jrmithdobbs> what the fuck
2253 2011-06-18 20:41:16 <Baller> no response, priceless... pretty much sums up america, no one has any response to the tyranny... every American just bows down like the bitch they are and takes the tyranny
2254 2011-06-18 20:41:34 <jrmithdobbs> that legislation makes it illegal for anyone other than millionaires (and you must be a millionaire WITHOUT including the equity on your primary residence, btw) to invest in precious metals
2255 2011-06-18 20:41:37 <Baller> so, lata, enjoy watching the downfall of amerca
2256 2011-06-18 20:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> literally, you must have >$1M usd on hand
2257 2011-06-18 20:41:55 <jrmithdobbs> in non-primary-residence equity
2258 2011-06-18 20:42:00 <Baller> well then go stand up for the illegal laws
2259 2011-06-18 20:42:01 <jrmithdobbs> what.the.fuck.
2260 2011-06-18 20:42:05 <jrmithdobbs> how did this get through congress?
2261 2011-06-18 20:42:12 <Baller> dude, its blatent corrupt tyranny
2262 2011-06-18 20:42:22 <Baller> because the politican who passed the law knows every american is just a bitch
2263 2011-06-18 20:42:28 <Baller> who aint going to stand up for their rights
2264 2011-06-18 20:42:34 <Baller> thats why america is in the shape its in
2265 2011-06-18 20:42:44 <Baller> you asked.. im just telling ya
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2268 2011-06-18 20:43:45 * ericmock heads to Jared to stock up on precious metals
2269 2011-06-18 20:44:09 <jrmithdobbs> whoa, and they can subtract primary residence real value + debt on primary residence from that figure
2270 2011-06-18 20:44:12 <jrmithdobbs> fucked. up.
2271 2011-06-18 20:44:25 <D0han> hey, few questions - i want to setup private pool for me and friends, when pool find block do i really need 100 blocks to use new 50 BTC? or can i send it right away and it will be 'sheluded' in network, waiting that 100 blocks?
2272 2011-06-18 20:44:44 <Baller> people better recognize that this nation was founded on the right of freedom of speech and freedom to carry guns
2273 2011-06-18 20:44:46 <jrmithdobbs> D0han: you must wait 120 blocks including the block that was found
2274 2011-06-18 20:44:56 neptunepink is now known as purpleposeidon
2275 2011-06-18 20:45:12 <jrmithdobbs> D0han: well, technically 101 blocks is how long you *must* wait, but it is in your interest to wait 120
2276 2011-06-18 20:45:13 Gray has joined
2277 2011-06-18 20:45:13 <Baller> our forefathers didnt give us those rights for no reason, they knew the bankers who show up and try to destroy this nation and make the people poor slaves
2278 2011-06-18 20:46:29 IoWn3rU has joined
2279 2011-06-18 20:46:31 <D0han> jrmithdobbs: it will be private pool for friends, we trust each other - cant i divide 50 BTC and send it not waiting?
2280 2011-06-18 20:46:42 Baller has left ()
2281 2011-06-18 20:46:44 <D0han> if network will discard block, i dont have it anyway
2282 2011-06-18 20:46:51 <jrmithdobbs> D0han: no
2283 2011-06-18 20:47:16 <jrmithdobbs> D0han: well you can using luke-jr's coinbase patch tha turns the coinbase into a sendtomany
2284 2011-06-18 20:47:32 <jrmithdobbs> but after that send to many the individual participants must wait another 119 blocks
2285 2011-06-18 20:47:38 <jrmithdobbs> so no
2286 2011-06-18 20:47:58 <D0han> thats what i want
2287 2011-06-18 20:48:24 <D0han> send it from my pool to friends, so they will wait 120 blocks
2288 2011-06-18 20:48:25 <D0han> not pool
2289 2011-06-18 20:48:59 IoWn3rU_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2290 2011-06-18 20:49:09 <D0han> so i have to path bitcoind, you say
2291 2011-06-18 20:49:22 <D0han> where can i grab this patch and bitcoind source?
2292 2011-06-18 20:49:50 <luke-jr> lrn2git
2293 2011-06-18 20:50:24 <D0han> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin ?
2294 2011-06-18 20:50:32 <D0han> isnt this entire client with GUI?
2295 2011-06-18 20:53:52 <jrmithdobbs> of course
2296 2011-06-18 20:55:06 <D0han> i have to strip GUI off by hand or what?
2297 2011-06-18 20:56:04 Joric has joined
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2299 2011-06-18 20:57:11 <Joric> looks like ppl get confused with 'confirmations'
2300 2011-06-18 20:57:27 <Joric> why client shows <6 as unconfirmed?
2301 2011-06-18 20:58:13 <Joric> is there any real reason for that or it's just some random threshold
2302 2011-06-18 20:58:41 <midnightmagic> most of those settings have a specific reason behind them.
2303 2011-06-18 20:58:43 <wumpus> D0han: do make bitcoind  instead of just make
2304 2011-06-18 20:58:48 <phantomcircuit> iirc it's the longest block chain split in the last reasonable amount of time
2305 2011-06-18 20:58:53 <midnightmagic> if you want to understand some of it, read satoshi's paper on it.
2306 2011-06-18 20:59:03 <Joric> why not just show 1 confirmation ... 5 confirmations etc
2307 2011-06-18 20:59:08 <D0han> wumpus: zomg, thanks ;D
2308 2011-06-18 21:02:26 gnutun has joined
2309 2011-06-18 21:03:45 <Joric> is there 'any' reason to keep client turned on on receiving? does it sign anything?
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2312 2011-06-18 21:06:40 <D0han> no
2313 2011-06-18 21:08:02 <samr7> uh oh historical earnings went up but no tx yet
2314 2011-06-18 21:08:07 <samr7> oops
2315 2011-06-18 21:08:39 T_X has joined
2316 2011-06-18 21:10:29 <Theo`> Joric: it verifies foreign transactions and blocks before forwarding them to others. Nothing really mission critical but helps to spread block chain
2317 2011-06-18 21:11:39 cuddlefish has joined
2318 2011-06-18 21:12:21 <cuddlefish> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19096.msg239696#msg239696 nofeemining.com: CSRFable
2319 2011-06-18 21:12:27 <cuddlefish> damn it guys, use a token
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2325 2011-06-18 21:12:54 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: other than the fact that with current code and block sizes it can take hours to catch up an out of date client? no. no reason.
2326 2011-06-18 21:13:04 <jrmithdobbs> Joric: it is not needed for the coins to be assigned to your keys
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2340 2011-06-18 21:44:58 <Joric> take a look at http://bitcoinwatch.com hashrate distribution
2341 2011-06-18 21:45:17 <Joric> something is not right, the "other" part is totally gone
2342 2011-06-18 21:46:01 <tcatm> Joric: it's small but still there
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2347 2011-06-18 21:47:33 <Joric> it's not supposed to be so, assumed there will be no any monopoly
2348 2011-06-18 21:48:48 <Joric> deepbit may poison the entire network now
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2354 2011-06-18 21:54:29 <domdomdo> hey anyone wonna sell 5 bitcoins for 80 usd
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2392 2011-06-18 22:36:12 <upb> lol @ rant about us government
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2443 2011-06-18 23:53:20 <Txyru> does anyone have a function in PHP for decoding the nicknames of the bitcoin nodes that connect to the bootstrapping channel?
2444 2011-06-18 23:54:00 XX01XX has joined
2445 2011-06-18 23:54:48 Kiba` is now known as kiba`
2446 2011-06-18 23:55:05 kiba` is now known as kiba
2447 2011-06-18 23:55:54 carldomdom has joined
2448 2011-06-18 23:55:56 <carldomdom> anyone selling 17ppusd
2449 2011-06-18 23:56:56 <Txyru> carldomdom, wrong channel.
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