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  40 2011-06-22 00:21:37 * unclemantis peeks in
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  42 2011-06-22 00:22:51 <unclemantis> within bitcoind there are different accounts and inside the accounts there are different addresses associated with that account. Each account has it's own balance. Is there a way to transfer the balance from one account to another in small amounts without incuring a confirmation fee?
  43 2011-06-22 00:23:11 devrandom has left ()
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  47 2011-06-22 00:24:13 <unclemantis> when I perform 'bitcoind getbalance' I get a combined total balance of my account balances. Is this balance available as a whole?
  48 2011-06-22 00:24:35 greg__ has joined
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  54 2011-06-22 00:29:32 <unclemantis> hello?
  55 2011-06-22 00:30:19 <tcatm> unclemantis: you can use the move RPC to move coins between accounts
  56 2011-06-22 00:30:53 <Storagewars> Was 9/11 a conspiracy press 1 for yes or 2 for no
  57 2011-06-22 00:31:18 <unclemantis> what about 3 for rock and roll?
  58 2011-06-22 00:31:30 tomat has joined
  59 2011-06-22 00:31:51 <unclemantis> oh neat... move
  60 2011-06-22 00:31:55 <Storagewars> how come hackers dont expose governments?
  61 2011-06-22 00:32:06 <Storagewars> like learn if osama was killed or if 9 11 was a cover ups
  62 2011-06-22 00:32:22 <unclemantis> Osama is a free man
  63 2011-06-22 00:32:29 <unclemantis> all charges where dropped
  64 2011-06-22 00:32:42 <Storagewars> osama might be alive? no1 knows cuz lies decieve
  65 2011-06-22 00:32:44 <Storagewars> new world order
  66 2011-06-22 00:32:58 <unclemantis> nw0!
  67 2011-06-22 00:33:33 <Storagewars> like why the fuck isnt lulzboat getting us some info
  68 2011-06-22 00:33:36 <Storagewars> they just having lulz
  69 2011-06-22 00:33:43 <Storagewars> well have some fucking lulz against the gov ment
  70 2011-06-22 00:33:49 <Storagewars> and find a secret or 2
  71 2011-06-22 00:34:07 <unclemantis> and why is my bank transactions taking 4 days instead of a max of 3 to get to dwolla!?
  72 2011-06-22 00:34:15 <unclemantis> there is a buying frenzy right now and I am missing out
  73 2011-06-22 00:34:22 <Storagewars> all lulzboat can do is ddos
  74 2011-06-22 00:34:23 <Storagewars> or something
  75 2011-06-22 00:34:27 <Storagewars> with their low orbitz
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  83 2011-06-22 00:39:46 <Storagewars> NEW WORLD ORDER
  84 2011-06-22 00:39:56 <Sickness\> OK
  85 2011-06-22 00:39:57 <Sickness\> IM IN
  86 2011-06-22 00:40:12 datguy is now known as datguy_afk
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  89 2011-06-22 00:40:53 <ericmock> anyone up for making "credcoin - a chain of trust"?
  90 2011-06-22 00:41:13 <Storagewars> So im wondering
  91 2011-06-22 00:41:19 mtrlt has joined
  92 2011-06-22 00:41:39 Keefe has joined
  93 2011-06-22 00:41:49 <Storagewars> If ne1 knows the whole story
  94 2011-06-22 00:41:50 <Storagewars> Between 1634 and 1637, the early enthusiasm for the new flowers triggered a speculative frenzy now known as the tulip mania. Tulips would become so expensive that they were treated as a form of currency. Around this time, the ceramic tulipiere was devised for the display of cut flowers stem by stem (bouquets displayed in vases were rare until the 19th century, although such vases and
  95 2011-06-22 00:41:51 <Storagewars> bouquets, usually including tulips, often appeared in Dutch still-life painting). To this day, tulips are associated with The Netherlands, and the cultivated forms of the tulip are often called "Dutch tulips." In addition to the tulip industry and tulip festivals, The Netherlands has the world's largest permanent display of tulips at Keukenhof, although the display is only open to the
  96 2011-06-22 00:41:51 <Storagewars> public seasonally.
  97 2011-06-22 00:42:07 <Storagewars> aka....bitcoins much
  98 2011-06-22 00:44:46 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  99 2011-06-22 00:44:54 <vragnaroda> wtf? off-topic much?
 100 2011-06-22 00:44:55 <phantomcircuit> tulips are in no way analogous to bitcoins
 101 2011-06-22 00:45:04 <phantomcircuit> the rate at which tulips multiply is exponential
 102 2011-06-22 00:45:09 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 103 2011-06-22 00:45:16 <phantomcircuit> the rate at which bitcoins multiple is the exact opposite
 104 2011-06-22 00:45:22 <phantomcircuit> lrn2economics
 105 2011-06-22 00:45:30 <ericmock> anyone around that might consider a proposed variable name change in the bitcoin source?
 106 2011-06-22 00:45:55 * unclemantis still bangs his head on the desk waiting for his money to appear in his Dwolla account when his bank already said they took it out yesterday morning and Dwolla is saying it is still pending!
 107 2011-06-22 00:46:12 <phantomcircuit> ericmock, eh i can tell you if it'll just get veto'd
 108 2011-06-22 00:46:54 <ericmock> well, CDB in db.cpp/h is a conflict with a Cocoa class
 109 2011-06-22 00:47:06 <ericmock> CDB -> _CDB
 110 2011-06-22 00:47:20 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
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 114 2011-06-22 00:47:53 prax has joined
 115 2011-06-22 00:47:53 <ericmock> I mean it's not hard for me to make the change each time the bitcoin source changes, but it also seems like a pretty trivial change to make in the trunk
 116 2011-06-22 00:47:55 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's not gonna happen
 117 2011-06-22 00:48:06 BurningToad has joined
 118 2011-06-22 00:48:11 <kunnis> unclemantis   It's the classic.  It takes 3 days for a check to clear, but only about 10 seconds for it to bounce.  Same theory.
 119 2011-06-22 00:48:16 <phantomcircuit> it's more likely that the cocoa class will change it's name
 120 2011-06-22 00:48:29 lumos has joined
 121 2011-06-22 00:48:30 <JRWR> is there a point where the blockchain file is just flatout too large?
 122 2011-06-22 00:48:42 <unclemantis> kunnis it is nuts. It takes 10 minutes for a bitcoin to clear
 123 2011-06-22 00:48:44 <ericmock> well, then the cocoa client will be a branch
 124 2011-06-22 00:49:04 <phantomcircuit> JRWR, the block chain file? no, the transactions? yes but there are a ton of methods to solve that problem, it's just that nobody cares yet
 125 2011-06-22 00:49:05 quellhorst has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 126 2011-06-22 00:49:08 <vragnaroda> ericmock: you should ask about it when there are more people around to consider it
 127 2011-06-22 00:49:08 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 128 2011-06-22 00:49:11 echelon has joined
 129 2011-06-22 00:49:22 <ericmock> vragnaroda: that was my first question
 130 2011-06-22 00:49:29 prax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 131 2011-06-22 00:49:30 <phantomcircuit> vragnaroda, i can pretty much guarantee it wont happen
 132 2011-06-22 00:49:30 quellhorst has joined
 133 2011-06-22 00:49:34 <JRWR> phantomcircuit: at the moment its up to 400MB for all the blocks/transactions
 134 2011-06-22 00:49:39 <phantomcircuit> he'll have to wait for namespaces and classes to be added
 135 2011-06-22 00:49:50 <phantomcircuit> JRWR, yes 99% of which is the transaction scripts
 136 2011-06-22 00:49:55 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
 137 2011-06-22 00:49:57 <gribble> 132429
 138 2011-06-22 00:49:57 prax_ has joined
 139 2011-06-22 00:50:06 <ericmock> I just don't really want to distribute a 'branched' client...  but whatever.
 140 2011-06-22 00:50:06 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
 141 2011-06-22 00:50:17 <phantomcircuit> JRWR, the block headers are only 132429*80 bytes
 142 2011-06-22 00:50:36 <phantomcircuit> ericmock, why not?
 143 2011-06-22 00:50:56 Cyde has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 144 2011-06-22 00:50:59 <phantomcircuit> JRWR, that's ~ 10MB
 145 2011-06-22 00:51:03 <vragnaroda> ericmock: how far along are you in the cocoa client?
 146 2011-06-22 00:51:10 <ericmock> I mean, I can't see the harm but I don't like the precedence
 147 2011-06-22 00:51:44 <phantomcircuit> the precedence that having more than 1 client is a good idea?
 148 2011-06-22 00:51:57 <ericmock> vragnaroda: well, I (think I) understand the ui.cpp code now and have been translating to cocoa equivs.
 149 2011-06-22 00:52:09 <JRWR> so the rest is transactions... hrm so what are the plans when the transaction DB gets over 2GB
 150 2011-06-22 00:52:10 skeledrew has joined
 151 2011-06-22 00:52:11 <vragnaroda> *precedent
 152 2011-06-22 00:52:24 <JRWR> i can see that as a tipping point
 153 2011-06-22 00:52:49 _flow_ has joined
 154 2011-06-22 00:52:58 <vragnaroda> ericmock: fwiw, wx on a mac sucks donkey balls and a *lot* of people have complained about that
 155 2011-06-22 00:53:01 <ericmock> phantomcircuit: no, just that I don't like modifying the core code...  although I know it's a trivial mod
 156 2011-06-22 00:53:13 <ericmock> vragnaroda: hear, hear
 157 2011-06-22 00:53:17 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 158 2011-06-22 00:53:25 <JRWR> you could make the mac client a two part system
 159 2011-06-22 00:53:29 <JRWR> run bitcoind
 160 2011-06-22 00:53:37 <JRWR> and then a client that coms to it with the json-rpc
 161 2011-06-22 00:54:04 prax has joined
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 163 2011-06-22 00:54:05 prax has joined
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 165 2011-06-22 00:54:09 <ericmock> phantomcircuit: it's not just to save me work (it's trivial to change) but to be able to say it's using the exact same core code.
 166 2011-06-22 00:54:14 Cyde has joined
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 169 2011-06-22 00:54:27 <ericmock> although the obj file might be identical anyway
 170 2011-06-22 00:54:50 a_meteorite has joined
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 172 2011-06-22 00:55:14 <phantomcircuit> it wont be identical no matter what you do
 173 2011-06-22 00:55:18 prax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 174 2011-06-22 00:55:22 <phantomcircuit> there are timestamps in gcc object files
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 176 2011-06-22 00:56:52 <unclemantis> why is it taking longer than 3 days to wire transfer from a USA bank to a USA bank?
 177 2011-06-22 00:57:01 <unclemantis> is the government involved in this?
 178 2011-06-22 00:57:12 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 179 2011-06-22 00:57:29 glassresistor has joined
 180 2011-06-22 00:57:50 <ericmock> unclemantis: did you submit a DNA sample with the request?
 181 2011-06-22 00:57:56 <vragnaroda> unclemantis: dwolla doesn't do wire transfers. they do ACH which means 2-4 business days to clear.
 182 2011-06-22 00:58:00 <gmaxwell> omg government. watch out for black helecoptors
 183 2011-06-22 00:58:10 <vragnaroda> *helicopters
 184 2011-06-22 00:58:24 <unclemantis> vragnaroda what is the difference?
 185 2011-06-22 00:59:22 Pinion has joined
 186 2011-06-22 00:59:25 <vragnaroda> unclemantis: wire txfr normally requires a fee and is entirely electronic. ach is mostly electronic but they like to drive large amounts of paper around in absurdly armored trucks to make sure they get it
 187 2011-06-22 00:59:56 <unclemantis> vragnaroda that is nuts
 188 2011-06-22 01:00:18 Heston has joined
 189 2011-06-22 01:00:24 <vragnaroda> yes
 190 2011-06-22 01:00:26 datguy_afk is now known as datguy
 191 2011-06-22 01:00:32 <unclemantis> because right now Dwolla shows my transaction as pending but my bank showed they took it out yesterday morning! That is like 2 full days IN THE VOID
 192 2011-06-22 01:00:46 <ericmock> unclemantis: not if you can make a transfer and then withdraw all your money...
 193 2011-06-22 01:01:26 <unclemantis> Transfering from PayPal to Bitcoin is turning out to be taking a lot longer than I thought
 194 2011-06-22 01:01:33 Gekz has joined
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 197 2011-06-22 01:01:34 Gekz has joined
 198 2011-06-22 01:01:40 <ericmock> yes, it's painful...
 199 2011-06-22 01:01:57 <vragnaroda> unclemantis: when my bank gets a notice that an incoming ACH is pending, they credit it to my account the next day and just cover it anyway but when i transfer to dwolla, it always takes longer
 200 2011-06-22 01:02:02 <unclemantis> it is going to be up to 15 FULL DAYS to eventualy get into my bitcoin wallet so that I can use it for development!
 201 2011-06-22 01:02:13 hallowworld has joined
 202 2011-06-22 01:02:27 <unclemantis> Why doesn't Dwolla credit me?
 203 2011-06-22 01:02:43 <unclemantis> Trust me. My bank is NOT going to rip them off.
 204 2011-06-22 01:03:12 <ericmock> unclemantis: testnet
 205 2011-06-22 01:03:25 <unclemantis> what is a testnet?
 206 2011-06-22 01:03:31 <unclemantis> playmoney?
 207 2011-06-22 01:03:34 <JRWR> yep
 208 2011-06-22 01:03:38 <JRWR> its a alt blockchain
 209 2011-06-22 01:03:50 <ericmock> google "testnet-in-a-box"
 210 2011-06-22 01:03:50 <unclemantis> OH SWEET!
 211 2011-06-22 01:03:56 Castor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 212 2011-06-22 01:03:57 <unclemantis> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
 213 2011-06-22 01:04:00 <ericmock> the real testnet kinda sux
 214 2011-06-22 01:04:32 <unclemantis> ok so i run bitcoind with the -testnet flag
 215 2011-06-22 01:04:49 <ericmock> that will get you the global testnet
 216 2011-06-22 01:05:04 <ericmock> see above
 217 2011-06-22 01:05:13 <unclemantis> so how do i generate testcoins?
 218 2011-06-22 01:05:34 * unclemantis does not have a powerhouse miner
 219 2011-06-22 01:05:46 <ericmock> that's the problem with the global testnet
 220 2011-06-22 01:05:51 <pasky> $ bitcoind --paytxfee=0.01 sendtoaddress ... 1.3
 221 2011-06-22 01:05:52 <pasky> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least 0.01 because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently received funds  "}
 222 2011-06-22 01:05:55 <ericmock> there's a faucet
 223 2011-06-22 01:05:56 <pasky> any clue how to fix this?
 224 2011-06-22 01:06:09 <luke-jr> pasky: lol, cute
 225 2011-06-22 01:06:23 <unclemantis> and it pays out 0.11 per visit
 226 2011-06-22 01:06:28 <luke-jr> pasky: -paytxfee doesn't work like that
 227 2011-06-22 01:06:41 doofus2 has quit ()
 228 2011-06-22 01:06:47 MtGox_Adam has joined
 229 2011-06-22 01:06:52 <pasky> so how do i make bitcoind pay the fee?
 230 2011-06-22 01:07:08 <unclemantis> so how do i generate testcoins?
 231 2011-06-22 01:07:12 <luke-jr> bitcoind settxfee 0.01
 232 2011-06-22 01:07:19 <luke-jr> unclemantis: -gen=1
 233 2011-06-22 01:07:26 <jgarzik> bitcoind settxfee 0.0005
 234 2011-06-22 01:07:29 <jgarzik> upgrade bitcoin :)
 235 2011-06-22 01:07:31 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 236 2011-06-22 01:07:32 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 237 2011-06-22 01:07:37 pwrcycle has quit (Changing host)
 238 2011-06-22 01:07:37 pwrcycle has joined
 239 2011-06-22 01:07:41 <pasky> $ bitcoind settxfee 0.01
 240 2011-06-22 01:07:41 <pasky> error: {"code":-32601,"message":"Method not found"}
 241 2011-06-22 01:07:50 <pasky> i have version" : 32100
 242 2011-06-22 01:07:51 Nesetalis has joined
 243 2011-06-22 01:07:56 <pasky> whatever is in debian by default :)
 244 2011-06-22 01:08:03 <luke-jr> wasn't settxfee added at the same time as not-automatically-adding-fee?
 245 2011-06-22 01:08:06 <ericmock> jgarzik: you have a second to consider a core code mod that I have already been told will be shot down?
 246 2011-06-22 01:08:11 <luke-jr> pasky: you mean Debian unstable?
 247 2011-06-22 01:08:19 <unclemantis> so i guess i check out #bitcoinTEST
 248 2011-06-22 01:08:29 <ericmock> unofficially told that is
 249 2011-06-22 01:08:36 <pasky> hmm since i want to do some more hacking i might as well compile my own
 250 2011-06-22 01:08:36 <jgarzik> ericmock: um, ok
 251 2011-06-22 01:08:37 <unclemantis> and no one there
 252 2011-06-22 01:08:54 <ericmock> unclemantis: it's easy to mine with the testnet-in-a-box
 253 2011-06-22 01:09:06 <ericmock> since the difficulty is '0'
 254 2011-06-22 01:09:10 <pasky> luke-jr: wheezy and sid are the same
 255 2011-06-22 01:09:15 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 256 2011-06-22 01:09:47 prax has joined
 257 2011-06-22 01:09:49 <unclemantis> so testnet-in-a-box
 258 2011-06-22 01:09:50 <ericmock> jgarzik: so, CDB in db.h/cpp conflicts with cocoa....  any chance of changing it to, say, _CDB?
 259 2011-06-22 01:09:57 <unclemantis> will things need to be done internally?
 260 2011-06-22 01:10:06 a_meteorite has quit (Quit: http://bzfx.net/)
 261 2011-06-22 01:10:24 <jgarzik> ericmock: which header in cocoa defines CDB?
 262 2011-06-22 01:10:41 <unclemantis> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/
 263 2011-06-22 01:10:47 <ericmock> jgarzik: oddly enough, something in CoreSystem to do with SCSI
 264 2011-06-22 01:11:01 <ericmock> legacy crap...
 265 2011-06-22 01:11:08 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 266 2011-06-22 01:11:25 <jgarzik> ericmock: I would rather fix the header chain to not conflict
 267 2011-06-22 01:11:30 <jgarzik> ericmock: we shouldn't be including SCSI headers
 268 2011-06-22 01:11:34 <unclemantis> so how do i use this testnet in a box with development? Does it work the same as the mainblock?
 269 2011-06-22 01:12:05 enquire has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 270 2011-06-22 01:12:14 <ericmock> jgarzik: it's included in <Foundation/Foundation.h>
 271 2011-06-22 01:12:29 <ericmock> I'm not including it myself (obviously)
 272 2011-06-22 01:12:35 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd bitcoin]$ grep -r Foundation .
 273 2011-06-22 01:12:35 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd bitcoin]$
 274 2011-06-22 01:12:47 <jgarzik> ericmock: we don't include that, so dig deeper :)
 275 2011-06-22 01:12:59 <ericmock> no, I have to include it to make a cocoa ui
 276 2011-06-22 01:13:23 <ericmock> It's not like I can't just rename the variable in my builds...
 277 2011-06-22 01:13:48 <unclemantis> ok so i run my existing bitcoind with this test?
 278 2011-06-22 01:13:51 <ericmock> and there are actually a few compiler directive changes I'd like to see to make it easier to paste on a new UI
 279 2011-06-22 01:13:53 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 280 2011-06-22 01:15:00 <ericmock> jgarzik: ^^
 281 2011-06-22 01:15:43 <unclemantis> 'bitcoin -datadir=1 -daemon' is telling me that Address already in use
 282 2011-06-22 01:15:44 mmoya has joined
 283 2011-06-22 01:15:44 <unclemantis> wtf?
 284 2011-06-22 01:15:57 <ericmock> 18333?
 285 2011-06-22 01:16:08 <unclemantis> i guess
 286 2011-06-22 01:16:09 <unclemantis> it shouldn't
 287 2011-06-22 01:16:18 <ericmock> you have another instance running?
 288 2011-06-22 01:16:20 <unclemantis> i have bitcoind main running
 289 2011-06-22 01:16:28 <jgarzik> ericmock: to answer the original answer, s/CDB/_CDB/ is highly unlikely.  That's really a platform bug, that SCSI symbols leak into (every???) project.  I would try #define CDB, or look closely at the headers to see if there are CPP defines that allow you to switch -off- inclusion of SCSI stuff.
 290 2011-06-22 01:16:34 <jgarzik> *question
 291 2011-06-22 01:16:34 <unclemantis> i can not have development and production running on the same machine?
 292 2011-06-22 01:16:45 <jgarzik> ericmock: we definitely want to support alternative UIs
 293 2011-06-22 01:17:32 <ericmock> basically, something like changing GUI to be more specific
 294 2011-06-22 01:17:37 <ericmock> like WXGUI
 295 2011-06-22 01:17:41 <unclemantis> can i have my production bitcoind running while running a test bitcoind?
 296 2011-06-22 01:17:44 <ericmock> COCOAGUI
 297 2011-06-22 01:18:14 <jgarzik> ericmock: yep
 298 2011-06-22 01:18:21 <jgarzik> ericmock: though note we are looking to replace wx with Qt
 299 2011-06-22 01:18:35 <ericmock> alternatively, just getting any "#ifdef GUI"'s out of all files but ui/uibase.cpp/h
 300 2011-06-22 01:18:42 wolfspraul has joined
 301 2011-06-22 01:19:48 <ericmock> jgarzik: well, if people are looking at moving to Qt then they're probably running into the same 'issues' as me.
 302 2011-06-22 01:19:55 <unclemantis> ok well i killed my production bitcoind and i now have the test running
 303 2011-06-22 01:20:09 <ericmock> and will thus likely be working to fix them...
 304 2011-06-22 01:20:20 <luke-jr> ericmock: the move to Qt is basically done
 305 2011-06-22 01:20:30 <jgarzik> ericmock: I guarantee they will not run into SCSI symbols conflicting with bitcoin symbols ;-)
 306 2011-06-22 01:20:50 <ericmock> well, have you tried on darwin?
 307 2011-06-22 01:21:26 __robin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 308 2011-06-22 01:21:42 <luke-jr> ericmock: Qt apps don't need to include any Apple headers
 309 2011-06-22 01:21:46 * unclemantis is having trouble getting the balance of the testnet
 310 2011-06-22 01:21:52 num1-mac is now known as num1-afk
 311 2011-06-22 01:21:56 <ericmock> although I guess you don't need Foundation.h unless you are using Apple stuff
 312 2011-06-22 01:22:06 __robin__ has joined
 313 2011-06-22 01:23:17 <ericmock>  but I wonder why libraries Qt is linked against
 314 2011-06-22 01:24:16 <unclemantis> ok got it bitcoin -datadir=1 getbalance
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 317 2011-06-22 01:27:06 Ramokk has joined
 318 2011-06-22 01:28:12 Leo_II has joined
 319 2011-06-22 01:29:12 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,blocks
 320 2011-06-22 01:29:13 <gribble> 132442
 321 2011-06-22 01:29:21 Leo_II1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 322 2011-06-22 01:30:03 thechut has joined
 323 2011-06-22 01:30:52 <luke-jr> ericmock: linking is irrelevant to #defines
 324 2011-06-22 01:31:00 <luke-jr> #* is strictly compile-time
 325 2011-06-22 01:31:05 <ericmock> I know
 326 2011-06-22 01:32:04 B0g4r7_ has joined
 327 2011-06-22 01:33:08 _flow_ has joined
 328 2011-06-22 01:34:02 <ericmock> okay:
 329 2011-06-22 01:34:03 <ericmock> union CDB {
 330 2011-06-22 01:34:03 <ericmock>   BytePtr             cdbPtr;                 /* pointer to the CDB, or */
 331 2011-06-22 01:34:04 <ericmock>   UInt8               cdbBytes[16];           /* the actual CDB to send */
 332 2011-06-22 01:34:04 <ericmock> };
 333 2011-06-22 01:34:07 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 334 2011-06-22 01:34:14 erska has joined
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 336 2011-06-22 01:34:35 <ericmock> shouldn't be a problem, just a compiler stuff..
 337 2011-06-22 01:34:35 <jrmithdobbs> don't use CDB
 338 2011-06-22 01:34:37 <jrmithdobbs> bad name
 339 2011-06-22 01:34:47 <ericmock> jrmithdobbs: tell satoshi
 340 2011-06-22 01:35:00 <jrmithdobbs> oh bah, that's right, forgot about that
 341 2011-06-22 01:35:16 <luke-jr> ericmock: stick an #undef CDB at the top
 342 2011-06-22 01:35:20 <jrmithdobbs> djb would not be please
 343 2011-06-22 01:35:24 pLr has joined
 344 2011-06-22 01:35:28 <jrmithdobbs> d
 345 2011-06-22 01:36:11 <luke-jr> ericmock: but srsly, people shouldn't be building GUIs on the wallet code anyway
 346 2011-06-22 01:36:23 <luke-jr> ericmock: do it the right way and help me work out a proper wallet protocol :P
 347 2011-06-22 01:36:43 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 348 2011-06-22 01:36:47 <ericmock> like they used in the ios client?
 349 2011-06-22 01:37:37 <ericmock> but wallet code is pretty 'isolated' from ui code already.
 350 2011-06-22 01:37:52 <ericmock> wasn't there talk of a lib?
 351 2011-06-22 01:38:02 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 352 2011-06-22 01:39:00 <luke-jr> ericmock: a protocol is needed so you don't have to run the client on the same machine as the wallet
 353 2011-06-22 01:39:22 <ericmock> oh, that type-o-protocol
 354 2011-06-22 01:39:25 <luke-jr> ericmock: ie, login to your MyBitcoin-equivalent from anywhere
 355 2011-06-22 01:39:30 <luke-jr> without a browser
 356 2011-06-22 01:39:59 <ericmock> and introduce another bundle of security issues?
 357 2011-06-22 01:40:17 <luke-jr> don't do it insecurely
 358 2011-06-22 01:40:24 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol has an old draft
 359 2011-06-22 01:40:26 IoWn3rU_ has joined
 360 2011-06-22 01:40:27 <Optimo> maybe the client shouldn't handle wallet file at all?
 361 2011-06-22 01:40:32 <Optimo> aha
 362 2011-06-22 01:40:53 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 363 2011-06-22 01:41:30 <ericmock> aren't "I didn't do it insecurely" some famous last words?
 364 2011-06-22 01:42:00 topace has joined
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 366 2011-06-22 01:43:12 <Optimo> let the client just be the thing that shows balances and does tx
 367 2011-06-22 01:43:33 <ericmock> tx with no interaction with wallet?
 368 2011-06-22 01:43:35 IoWn3rU has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 369 2011-06-22 01:43:46 copumpkin has joined
 370 2011-06-22 01:43:47 <luke-jr> he didn't say no interactoin
 371 2011-06-22 01:43:59 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Infrastructure#Overview
 372 2011-06-22 01:44:10 <ericmock> "maybe the client shouldn't handle wallet file at all?"
 373 2011-06-22 01:44:15 <dsockwell> does anyone know what the license might be on code that's part of blockexplorer?
 374 2011-06-22 01:44:27 <luke-jr> ericmock: exactly, that's the Wallet's job
 375 2011-06-22 01:44:28 <jrmithdobbs> dsockwell: closed afaik
 376 2011-06-22 01:44:41 <luke-jr> dsockwell: no license
 377 2011-06-22 01:44:47 <luke-jr> dsockwell: ie, you can't copy it
 378 2011-06-22 01:44:53 <dsockwell> aw.
 379 2011-06-22 01:44:58 <dsockwell> i'll just have to hammer his website then
 380 2011-06-22 01:45:01 <jrmithdobbs> dsockwell: he bandies about the idea of opening every now and then and then never follows through
 381 2011-06-22 01:45:09 <ericmock> Optimo: what are you suggesting?
 382 2011-06-22 01:45:11 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: he does?
 383 2011-06-22 01:45:26 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i've seen a couple different posts saying "when i get it cleaned up" and similar
 384 2011-06-22 01:45:27 <dsockwell> he went and posted an address validation routine
 385 2011-06-22 01:45:29 <ericmock> Optimo: I guess I took a broad definition of 'handle'
 386 2011-06-22 01:45:47 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: he teases and then doesn't follow through ;P
 387 2011-06-22 01:45:58 <dsockwell> which is what i'm interested in
 388 2011-06-22 01:46:02 vorlov has joined
 389 2011-06-22 01:46:12 <jrmithdobbs> dsockwell: good luck, shit's annoying
 390 2011-06-22 01:46:23 <dsockwell> but I don't want theymos to come and smother me in my sleep if I use it
 391 2011-06-22 01:46:35 <luke-jr> there's BSD-lciensed C++ and Python code for that
 392 2011-06-22 01:46:40 <luke-jr> s/BSD/MIT
 393 2011-06-22 01:46:43 <dsockwell> oh yeah?
 394 2011-06-22 01:46:53 <luke-jr> yeah
 395 2011-06-22 01:46:59 <luke-jr> C++ is in the bitcoind code
 396 2011-06-22 01:47:03 <jrmithdobbs> dsockwell: blockchaintools or hatever gavin calls it
 397 2011-06-22 01:47:05 <luke-jr> Python is on the forum somewhere
 398 2011-06-22 01:47:20 <jrmithdobbs> the c++ code is just about impossible to pull out of bitcoind though
 399 2011-06-22 01:47:22 GermainA has joined
 400 2011-06-22 01:47:35 <dsockwell> ug.
 401 2011-06-22 01:47:40 <jrmithdobbs> you need a good chunk of the rest of the code to make base58.h work
 402 2011-06-22 01:47:42 GermainA is now known as Germain
 403 2011-06-22 01:47:44 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: why would be there need to pull out c++ code? hm?
 404 2011-06-22 01:47:55 egecko has joined
 405 2011-06-22 01:47:58 <dsockwell> xelister: i don't want my app to have direct access to a bitcoin client
 406 2011-06-22 01:48:00 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: if you just want to validate addresses?
 407 2011-06-22 01:48:08 thechut has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 408 2011-06-22 01:48:37 <xelister> ah
 409 2011-06-22 01:48:40 <luke-jr> base58 *should* be a lib :P
 410 2011-06-22 01:49:05 jsnyder has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 411 2011-06-22 01:49:49 <xelister> sounds easy to do
 412 2011-06-22 01:50:06 jsnyder has joined
 413 2011-06-22 01:50:51 <dsockwell> ah well.  theymos seems to invite automated queries, so i'll just jump on board.
 414 2011-06-22 01:51:07 <upb> hey can anyone explain how OP_CHECKMULTISIG works ? following the comment in the code and the code itself i cant match it up.
 415 2011-06-22 01:51:21 Teslah has joined
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 417 2011-06-22 01:51:56 <upb> ohhhh nevermind :) got it
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 430 2011-06-22 02:08:42 phrontist has joined
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 432 2011-06-22 02:09:05 <phrontist> is there a roadmap for development of the client anywhere?
 433 2011-06-22 02:11:35 Pinion has joined
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 439 2011-06-22 02:14:14 <tcatm> phrontist: this is the closest equivalent of a roadmap I know of: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=27661223
 440 2011-06-22 02:15:28 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 447 2011-06-22 02:21:20 <phrontist> tcatm, thanks
 448 2011-06-22 02:22:04 dishwara has quit (Quit: Buy my shares DISHWARA @ glbse.com)
 449 2011-06-22 02:22:55 jsnyder has joined
 450 2011-06-22 02:23:03 ewal has joined
 451 2011-06-22 02:23:17 <ericmock> did wallet.dat somehow change with version change from .21 to .23?
 452 2011-06-22 02:23:32 <phrontist> in satoshi's paper there is mention of a pruning algorithm to avoid forcing each user to download the whole blockchain - has that been implemented?
 453 2011-06-22 02:24:00 Keefe has quit (Changing host)
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 455 2011-06-22 02:24:13 <tcatm> phrontist: nope
 456 2011-06-22 02:24:18 <ericmock> my old wallet.dat file causes client to crash...  runs fine if I let it create a new one
 457 2011-06-22 02:24:19 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|AFK
 458 2011-06-22 02:25:04 <tcatm> ericmock: os?
 459 2011-06-22 02:25:09 <ericmock> osx
 460 2011-06-22 02:25:18 <tcatm> hrm
 461 2011-06-22 02:25:26 <tcatm> should work
 462 2011-06-22 02:25:28 <ericmock> crashes at     if (!CWalletDB("cr+").LoadWallet())
 463 2011-06-22 02:25:32 agricocb has joined
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 465 2011-06-22 02:25:36 agricocb has joined
 466 2011-06-22 02:25:53 <tcatm> can you try loading the wallet with bitcointools (./dbdump --wallet)
 467 2011-06-22 02:26:25 <ericmock> let me do some other testing (and where can I get bitcointools?)
 468 2011-06-22 02:26:44 <ericmock> nm
 469 2011-06-22 02:26:46 <tcatm> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
 470 2011-06-22 02:26:51 <ericmock> thx
 471 2011-06-22 02:27:46 <tcatm> .23 might use a different BDB version
 472 2011-06-22 02:28:42 _flow_ has joined
 473 2011-06-22 02:29:58 <phrontist> is there anywhere I can see how many clients comprise the whole bitcoin network?
 474 2011-06-22 02:30:30 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 475 2011-06-22 02:30:50 <ericmock> tcatm: I'm linking against db5.1 (I think)
 476 2011-06-22 02:31:36 <phuzion> Is ANYONE mining on the testnet right now?
 477 2011-06-22 02:31:37 <tcatm> oh you're building from src?
 478 2011-06-22 02:31:44 <ericmock> yea
 479 2011-06-22 02:31:48 <ericmock> sorry
 480 2011-06-22 02:32:03 <ericmock> but I grabbed another 'old' wallet and that seems fine...
 481 2011-06-22 02:32:11 <ericmock> wallet.dat corruption?
 482 2011-06-22 02:32:21 <phrontist> phuzion: I'll start, if you want me to :-)
 483 2011-06-22 02:32:30 <tcatm> use db4.x
 484 2011-06-22 02:32:39 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 485 2011-06-22 02:32:54 <tcatm> bdb likes to change dataformats between versions
 486 2011-06-22 02:32:56 Teslah has joined
 487 2011-06-22 02:33:26 <ericmock> but I've always been using 5.1...
 488 2011-06-22 02:33:28 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 489 2011-06-22 02:33:31 <ericmock> let me try dumpdb
 490 2011-06-22 02:33:56 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 491 2011-06-22 02:34:52 Raccoon` has joined
 492 2011-06-22 02:34:53 <phuzion> phrontist: That would be nice.  I'd like to get the blockchain at some point :)
 493 2011-06-22 02:35:13 <phrontist> just started
 494 2011-06-22 02:35:18 <ericmock> hmm...  no bsddb module
 495 2011-06-22 02:35:18 <phuzion> Thanks
 496 2011-06-22 02:35:27 <phrontist> but this is on an old-ish CPU
 497 2011-06-22 02:35:35 <phrontist> I figure the test-net difficutly is set pretty low?
 498 2011-06-22 02:35:42 <phuzion> Probably insanely low
 499 2011-06-22 02:36:16 <phrontist> {"result":{"version":32002,"balance":1.50000000,"blocks":25461,"connections":8,"proxy":"","generate":true,"genproclimit":-1,"difficulty":66.10564472,"hashespersec":2139884,"testnet":true,"keypoololdest":1308644377,"paytxfee":0.00000000,"errors":""},"error":null,"id":"curltest"}
 500 2011-06-22 02:36:26 <phrontist> 66?
 501 2011-06-22 02:36:33 <phrontist> what is the main network at?
 502 2011-06-22 02:36:43 <dsockwell> phrontist: idk it took me a couple of days to gen a block with cpu
 503 2011-06-22 02:36:49 <phuzion> I think something like 180K or something, phrontist
 504 2011-06-22 02:36:55 <phrontist> hahaha
 505 2011-06-22 02:37:15 <dsockwell> about 40 minutes with dual 8800s
 506 2011-06-22 02:37:21 Sylph has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 507 2011-06-22 02:37:23 <phuzion> I'm gonna be running this on an Atom 1.6GHz, so I'll be mining for a while before getting something.
 508 2011-06-22 02:37:34 <dsockwell> you're better off begging
 509 2011-06-22 02:37:34 bitcoiner has joined
 510 2011-06-22 02:38:02 <phrontist> so, iirc, "difficulty" expresses how many bytes of the hash you need to get right before victory is declared
 511 2011-06-22 02:38:18 <phrontist> how does that relate to a number like 66 or 180k?
 512 2011-06-22 02:38:25 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 513 2011-06-22 02:38:31 B0g4r7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 514 2011-06-22 02:38:42 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 515 2011-06-22 02:38:42 <phrontist> (on the main net it's "877226.6" btw)
 516 2011-06-22 02:38:43 <phuzion> phrontist: higher the number, the longer it will take an individual to mine a block.
 517 2011-06-22 02:38:44 wardearia has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 518 2011-06-22 02:38:50 <phrontist> phuzion: right, right
 519 2011-06-22 02:38:56 <phrontist> but what does the number mean, exactly
 520 2011-06-22 02:39:01 <phrontist> is it a time unit?
 521 2011-06-22 02:39:10 <phuzion> Not really sure.
 522 2011-06-22 02:39:20 <phrontist> average hashes until block, maybe?
 523 2011-06-22 02:39:26 Teslah has joined
 524 2011-06-22 02:39:27 <phuzion> And realistically, the "longer it takes to mine a block" is only valid if you are the only one on the entire network.
 525 2011-06-22 02:39:41 <phuzion> Realistlcally, it just means that you get less luck in mining.
 526 2011-06-22 02:39:51 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 527 2011-06-22 02:39:53 drouta has joined
 528 2011-06-22 02:40:04 <drouta> the coins are alive
 529 2011-06-22 02:40:12 <phrontist> time = difficulty * 2**32 / hashrate
 530 2011-06-22 02:40:15 Raccoon` has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 531 2011-06-22 02:40:17 <phrontist> (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty)
 532 2011-06-22 02:41:31 <phuzion> phrontist: You happen to have a few coins laying around by chance that I could pick up off you?
 533 2011-06-22 02:41:49 <phrontist> ha, funny you should ask - dsockwell just gave me a bunch of his, but they haven't arrived
 534 2011-06-22 02:41:54 <phrontist> (testcoins, that is)
 535 2011-06-22 02:41:58 <phuzion> Oh bummer
 536 2011-06-22 02:42:05 <phuzion> I wasn't going to ask if you would give me legit coins, lol
 537 2011-06-22 02:42:08 <phrontist> I have 1.5, I can give you them
 538 2011-06-22 02:42:19 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 539 2011-06-22 02:42:22 <phuzion> Sure
 540 2011-06-22 02:42:25 gribble has joined
 541 2011-06-22 02:42:31 Ramokk has joined
 542 2011-06-22 02:42:32 <phrontist> phuzion: address?
 543 2011-06-22 02:42:47 pyro_ has joined
 544 2011-06-22 02:42:59 <phuzion> Grrr, bitcoin client is not responding
 545 2011-06-22 02:43:06 flykoko has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 546 2011-06-22 02:43:06 <phrontist> https://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
 547 2011-06-22 02:43:11 <phrontist> that's where I got them :-)
 548 2011-06-22 02:43:13 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 549 2011-06-22 02:43:19 <phrontist> it says 0.11, but it gave me 0.5 each time
 550 2011-06-22 02:43:20 <phuzion> myGXAoDd6ZvDSxSe98uGuvLpavVZCTjXJK
 551 2011-06-22 02:43:27 <phuzion> Three different accounts?
 552 2011-06-22 02:43:31 <drouta> coinhalla
 553 2011-06-22 02:43:35 <phrontist> I just hit it three times on accident
 554 2011-06-22 02:43:39 <phrontist> well, twice
 555 2011-06-22 02:43:43 <phrontist> the third time was greed.
 556 2011-06-22 02:44:18 Sylph has joined
 557 2011-06-22 02:44:28 pyro__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 558 2011-06-22 02:44:48 Raccoon has joined
 559 2011-06-22 02:45:04 * phuzion still has NOTHING on the blockchain, lol
 560 2011-06-22 02:45:47 <phuzion> Is there a way to speed up downloading of the blockchain by chance?
 561 2011-06-22 02:45:53 flykoko has joined
 562 2011-06-22 02:46:31 <tcatm> phuzion: sure, just download it as a single file
 563 2011-06-22 02:46:46 <phuzion> tcatm: Where can I get it?
 564 2011-06-22 02:46:51 <phrontist> phuzion: I /think/ I just sent you one testcoin
 565 2011-06-22 02:46:57 <phuzion> blockexplorer?
 566 2011-06-22 02:47:06 <phrontist> api is taking a while to respond
 567 2011-06-22 02:47:29 <phrontist> does the api hold the connection open until some aspect of the transaction completes?
 568 2011-06-22 02:47:37 <tcatm> phuzion: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
 569 2011-06-22 02:47:41 nanotube has joined
 570 2011-06-22 02:48:10 Justasic has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 571 2011-06-22 02:48:23 <phuzion> tcatm: thanks :)
 572 2011-06-22 02:48:39 Justasic has joined
 573 2011-06-22 02:48:55 doofus2 has joined
 574 2011-06-22 02:49:03 <phrontist> phuzion: relevant transaction will show up here: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/search/d6d92900c0138299447bf02b9f13c38805b5209ccfc038348efa6022b6718d07
 575 2011-06-22 02:49:12 hamush has joined
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 577 2011-06-22 02:50:53 <drouta> federal reserve was hacked
 578 2011-06-22 02:50:58 <phuzion> what
 579 2011-06-22 02:51:03 <phuzion> lulzsec again?
 580 2011-06-22 02:51:16 <picci>  trading 50usd visa online prepaid card for 5btc
 581 2011-06-22 02:51:32 <picci> ops wrong chan
 582 2011-06-22 02:53:07 takezo420 has quit (Quit: takezo420)
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 592 2011-06-22 03:03:30 <Atterall> What kind of permissions is bitcoind expecting on the wallet.dat file in a Linux operating enviroment ?
 593 2011-06-22 03:03:48 pauface has joined
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 595 2011-06-22 03:06:19 <phrontist> Atterall: I'm new to bc-dev, but if you explained why you were asking I might be able to help
 596 2011-06-22 03:06:34 <tcatm> Atterall: readwrite
 597 2011-06-22 03:06:39 <Atterall> I'm trying to copy my wallet.dat over from my windows 7 install
 598 2011-06-22 03:06:51 <Atterall> <--bit time noob
 599 2011-06-22 03:06:55 <Atterall> *big time
 600 2011-06-22 03:07:15 <ewal> Atterall: it should be rw for the owner only
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 606 2011-06-22 03:11:02 <phuzion> Atterall: Try chmod 0700 wallet.dat, see if bitcoind runs with that.  It should.
 607 2011-06-22 03:11:03 <BitcoinForNewegg> the NSA has just brought their bitcoin mining cluster online
 608 2011-06-22 03:11:05 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 609 2011-06-22 03:11:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> look at how fast they mine those blocks
 610 2011-06-22 03:11:23 <phuzion> BitcoinForNewegg: Proof?
 611 2011-06-22 03:11:40 <BitcoinForNewegg> 5 blocks found in 2 mnutes
 612 2011-06-22 03:12:11 <BitcoinForNewegg> thats 60 times faster than the network
 613 2011-06-22 03:12:32 <idnar> haha
 614 2011-06-22 03:13:17  has joined
 615 2011-06-22 03:13:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/21/NSA.bitcoin.mining.rig/index.html
 616 2011-06-22 03:13:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> seeee
 617 2011-06-22 03:13:47 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 618 2011-06-22 03:13:56 <phuzion> hurrr
 619 2011-06-22 03:14:18 <Storagewars> durrrr
 620 2011-06-22 03:14:27 <Storagewars> borken link
 621 2011-06-22 03:14:29 <BitcoinForNewegg> they already took it downh lol
 622 2011-06-22 03:14:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> the end is near
 623 2011-06-22 03:14:38 <BitcoinForNewegg> sell me your bitcoins now
 624 2011-06-22 03:14:43 <BitcoinForNewegg> i mean buy my bitcoins
 625 2011-06-22 03:14:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> awww crap
 626 2011-06-22 03:15:14 <Storagewars> jesus how did that get up to 13blocks
 627 2011-06-22 03:15:17 <phuzion> BitcoinForNewegg: I've got one hell of a "the market is crashing, get out now" deal.  I'll sell you a bitcoin for $40,000,000.
 628 2011-06-22 03:15:29 <phuzion> Where are you guys watching this?
 629 2011-06-22 03:15:36 <BitcoinForNewegg> im selling them for $13
 630 2011-06-22 03:16:01 <BitcoinForNewegg> thats like a thousand percent off
 631 2011-06-22 03:16:20 <phrontist> phuzion: watching what?
 632 2011-06-22 03:16:23 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 633 2011-06-22 03:16:24 <phuzion> Yeah, and that's like 1300 times the price I could have bought them at on sunday night
 634 2011-06-22 03:16:25 <BitcoinForNewegg> +/- a few orders of magnitude
 635 2011-06-22 03:16:42 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 636 2011-06-22 03:16:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> it is 1300 times the price I paid for them thursday night
 637 2011-06-22 03:17:17 <phuzion> mtgox flash-crashed sunday night, right?
 638 2011-06-22 03:17:18 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
 639 2011-06-22 03:17:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> err sunday
 640 2011-06-22 03:17:39 brunner has joined
 641 2011-06-22 03:17:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> i got some at $.01 it was so happy
 642 2011-06-22 03:17:49 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 643 2011-06-22 03:17:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> cant wait till they reopen
 644 2011-06-22 03:18:02 <phuzion> During the flash crash?
 645 2011-06-22 03:18:05 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya
 646 2011-06-22 03:18:07 <phuzion> Did you withdraw them?
 647 2011-06-22 03:18:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> made so many trades after that
 648 2011-06-22 03:18:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> lol im not stupid
 649 2011-06-22 03:18:27 <phuzion> ok
 650 2011-06-22 03:18:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> of course i withdrew
 651 2011-06-22 03:18:38 <phuzion> I was gonna say, you know that they are going to rollback
 652 2011-06-22 03:18:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> i hope not
 653 2011-06-22 03:18:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> i got so many more in my acct
 654 2011-06-22 03:19:05 <phuzion> it's already been confimed that they're rolling back before going live again.
 655 2011-06-22 03:19:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> ahhh crap
 656 2011-06-22 03:19:15 <BitcoinForNewegg> there goes my fortune
 657 2011-06-22 03:19:21 <phuzion> lol
 658 2011-06-22 03:19:22 <fiverawr> So your BTC balance will be minus whatever you withdrew
 659 2011-06-22 03:19:40 <BitcoinForNewegg> u can have negative balance?
 660 2011-06-22 03:19:43 <fiverawr> Yes
 661 2011-06-22 03:19:46 <BitcoinForNewegg> cool
 662 2011-06-22 03:20:18 <phuzion> How do you guys think I feel now?  I had a wallet with 4 found blocks, 200 total coins, and it got lost in a hard drive crash
 663 2011-06-22 03:20:28 <phuzion> I played around with it in the beginning
 664 2011-06-22 03:20:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> how bad of a crash
 665 2011-06-22 03:20:43 <phuzion> BitcoinForNewegg: Literally zero recoverable data.
 666 2011-06-22 03:20:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> like platters are seethru?
 667 2011-06-22 03:21:08 <phuzion> I tried for quite a while, I had some stuff on there that I really would have liked to have back, but it's gone.
 668 2011-06-22 03:21:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> or melted to slag?
 669 2011-06-22 03:21:16 <phuzion> more or less melted to a slag.
 670 2011-06-22 03:21:25 <BitcoinForNewegg> theres some data recovery places that will for $100 tellyou if they can reover it
 671 2011-06-22 03:21:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> then its a few k for revovery
 672 2011-06-22 03:21:40 <phuzion> It's a moot point now, because I shredded the drive at work, because there were some files on there I didn't want recovered (work stuff)/.
 673 2011-06-22 03:21:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> :(
 674 2011-06-22 03:21:58 <alystair> BitcoinForNewegg: where's bitcoinforamazon ;O
 675 2011-06-22 03:22:03 <BitcoinForNewegg> no clue
 676 2011-06-22 03:22:07 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 677 2011-06-22 03:22:16 <BitcoinForNewegg> i need like 50 more coins tho
 678 2011-06-22 03:22:19 <BitcoinForNewegg> *to sell
 679 2011-06-22 03:22:40  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-22-44.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
 680 2011-06-22 03:22:58 <alystair> I'll sell you 100 coins @ $25 each ;O
 681 2011-06-22 03:23:05 <BitcoinForNewegg> i am selling coins
 682 2011-06-22 03:23:09 <alystair> oh.
 683 2011-06-22 03:23:12 * alystair goes off to get work done
 684 2011-06-22 03:23:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> $13
 685 2011-06-22 03:23:24 <alystair> also, not for this room.
 686 2011-06-22 03:23:26 Incitatus has joined
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 689 2011-06-22 03:25:12 <phuzion> I'm still getting (not connected) in the testnet mode.  Anything I need to do?  18333 is forwarded to the machine, etc
 690 2011-06-22 03:25:16 Storagewars has quit ()
 691 2011-06-22 03:26:26 <xelister> phuzion: what is your IP
 692 2011-06-22 03:26:35 <phuzion> xelister: What do you need it for?
 693 2011-06-22 03:26:38 <phuzion> Just curious
 694 2011-06-22 03:26:57 <phuzion> Gonna see if you can connect to the client?
 695 2011-06-22 03:27:14 <xelister> phuzion: yea
 696 2011-06-22 03:27:24 <xelister> not client, the bitcoin test node
 697 2011-06-22 03:27:59 <xelister> again, what IP is used by testnet mode bitcoin node2node?
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 700 2011-06-22 03:28:22 <markio> hey
 701 2011-06-22 03:28:32 <xelister> wadup markio
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 711 2011-06-22 03:40:46 <samlander> any news on when gox is going to relaunch?
 712 2011-06-22 03:41:00 <vragnaroda> nope
 713 2011-06-22 03:41:19 <samlander> so which is the next best exchange to use while I wait?
 714 2011-06-22 03:41:27 <vragnaroda> -otc
 715 2011-06-22 03:41:38 <samlander> ic :)
 716 2011-06-22 03:42:14 pogden has joined
 717 2011-06-22 03:43:12 <assassindrake> anyone know if mtgox will be taking dwolla deposits before the market opens?
 718 2011-06-22 03:44:20 bill_h has quit (Quit: leaving)
 719 2011-06-22 03:44:25 <vragnaroda> assassindrake: people have sent mtgox money through dwolla while it's been down, so yeah
 720 2011-06-22 03:44:42 <vragnaroda> but they might not give you their little guide on how to send it :)
 721 2011-06-22 03:44:51 <vragnaroda> (and this doesn't belong in -dev)
 722 2011-06-22 03:44:52 <assassindrake> plz
 723 2011-06-22 03:45:00 <assassindrake> noted
 724 2011-06-22 03:45:06 <assassindrake> where then?
 725 2011-06-22 03:46:01 <copumpkin> #mtgox probably
 726 2011-06-22 03:46:06 <copumpkin> if I were to guess :)
 727 2011-06-22 03:49:13 llama has joined
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 729 2011-06-22 03:50:21 <vragnaroda> there are a lot of #bitcoin- channels
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 735 2011-06-22 03:53:57 <ne0futur> samlander: i d expect 1-3 days now
 736 2011-06-22 03:54:10 <luke-jr> samlander: there is also tradehill
 737 2011-06-22 03:54:29 <luke-jr> samlander: you can use referral code TH-R12147 for discounted fees
 738 2011-06-22 03:54:39 <luke-jr> samlander: (and part of your fees also go to Eligius)
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 761 2011-06-22 04:15:12 <RevolutionMasta> I have a recommendation for the devs: Cut the difficulty factor in half, but ALSO cut the block bonus in half
 762 2011-06-22 04:15:31 <RevolutionMasta> It will have minimal impact on miners,but it will make the block chain move faster
 763 2011-06-22 04:15:41 <grug> i have a recommendation for you: you are retarded
 764 2011-06-22 04:15:48 <vragnaroda> ^^
 765 2011-06-22 04:16:28 <copumpkin> grug: that's not really a recommendation
 766 2011-06-22 04:16:31 <copumpkin> more of a statement
 767 2011-06-22 04:16:40 Eremes has joined
 768 2011-06-22 04:16:53 <vragnaroda> herp derp, bitcoin is flawed, so we have to change it and break all the existing clients that no one will upgrade in time anyway, and some will patch to make incompatible with a new bitcoin-fork that nobody likes
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 772 2011-06-22 04:19:23 <rawr> as in the fork where the price dropped?
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 777 2011-06-22 04:22:14 <grug> copumpkin: hahaha
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 797 2011-06-22 04:36:38 <llama> ok I restored a backup wallet on bitcoin.app for mac
 798 2011-06-22 04:36:41 <llama> and it shows a 0 balance
 799 2011-06-22 04:36:46 <llama> I tried -rescan, no help
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 803 2011-06-22 04:37:08 <llama> it shows all the transactions, and it has all the blocks. The wallet.dat works fine and shows the balance on a bitcoind client on linux. Any ideas?
 804 2011-06-22 04:37:09 bobke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 805 2011-06-22 04:37:30 <nanotube> llama: using latest version?
 806 2011-06-22 04:37:35 Eremes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 807 2011-06-22 04:37:42 <llama> 0.3.23bet
 808 2011-06-22 04:37:44 <llama> *beta
 809 2011-06-22 04:37:44 <llama> yea
 810 2011-06-22 04:38:04 <nanotube> hrm well... try redownloading the block chain heh
 811 2011-06-22 04:38:12 <llama> bleh
 812 2011-06-22 04:38:20 <llama> ok...
 813 2011-06-22 04:38:37 <llama> maybe rescan isn't working on mac? (auto or manual?)
 814 2011-06-22 04:38:37 jzknight has joined
 815 2011-06-22 04:38:43 <llama> its odd
 816 2011-06-22 04:39:41 Eremes has joined
 817 2011-06-22 04:40:23 <xelister> who is running testnodes?   best, all the time?
 818 2011-06-22 04:41:02 <xelister> nanotube: are you running a test node (best 24/7) ?
 819 2011-06-22 04:41:32 <nanotube> llama: dunno, seems like a bug worth filing.
 820 2011-06-22 04:41:39 <nanotube> xelister: nope
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 823 2011-06-22 04:41:50 <llama> yea
 824 2011-06-22 04:41:50 <nanotube> xelister: blockexplorer is running one
 825 2011-06-22 04:42:07 <llama> ill look into it a bit more. Mac client sucks...really need a cocoa version
 826 2011-06-22 04:42:19 TheZimm is now known as TheZimm|away
 827 2011-06-22 04:42:26 <copumpkin> llama: ericmock is working on one
 828 2011-06-22 04:42:31 <copumpkin> you could join his efforts
 829 2011-06-22 04:42:50 <llama> ill look into it, I might
 830 2011-06-22 04:42:53 oozyburglar has joined
 831 2011-06-22 04:42:54 <llama> I have a bit of experience
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 834 2011-06-22 04:45:28 <xelister> whre are mapargs loaded?
 835 2011-06-22 04:46:17 <phrontist> anyone have any theories as to why I would show a balance of 30.5 (after someone sent it) then back to 0.5, then back to 30.5, over the space of 3 hours?
 836 2011-06-22 04:46:29 <phrontist> no transactions were initiated, as far as I can tell
 837 2011-06-22 04:46:51 <phrontist> this is the latest client, testnet, fwiw
 838 2011-06-22 04:47:52 <xelister> phrontist: perhaps chain splits
 839 2011-06-22 04:48:04 <phrontist> huh
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 844 2011-06-22 04:50:31 <phrontist> do chain splits occur in regular operation of a network, or is it always a sign of pathological client behavior?
 845 2011-06-22 04:50:54 p0s- has joined
 846 2011-06-22 04:51:09 <phrontist> I mean, it's fundamentally a disagreement on legitimacy between two subsets of clients, right?
 847 2011-06-22 04:51:10 <gmaxwell> Single block splits happen, though its unusual to have big transaction differences on them.
 848 2011-06-22 04:51:25 <phrontist> and they eventually settle out, right?
 849 2011-06-22 04:51:26 <gmaxwell> phrontist: not subsets of clients, bitcoin is not a voting system.
 850 2011-06-22 04:51:36 <gmaxwell> Yes, the system provides eventual consistency.
 851 2011-06-22 04:51:55 <phrontist> sure, but it's entirely possible for the system to break into a dozen pieces at any given time
 852 2011-06-22 04:52:02 <llama> phrontist: what client? OS?
 853 2011-06-22 04:52:03 <gmaxwell> But you actually saw this as a balance and not just unconfirmed txn sitting in your client?
 854 2011-06-22 04:52:04 <phrontist> it won't, practically
 855 2011-06-22 04:52:14 <phrontist> but mathematically/algorithmically
 856 2011-06-22 04:52:24 <phrontist> gmaxwell: yes, I saw the balance
 857 2011-06-22 04:52:31 <gmaxwell> phrontist: what client is this?
 858 2011-06-22 04:52:31 <phrontist> through the api
 859 2011-06-22 04:52:38 <llama> what command?
 860 2011-06-22 04:52:48 <phrontist> uh, "version":32002
 861 2011-06-22 04:52:53 <gmaxwell> IIRC getbalance does not count inputs until they are 6 blocks deep.
 862 2011-06-22 04:53:09 <phrontist> used the getinfo API call
 863 2011-06-22 04:53:15 <phrontist> and getbalance
 864 2011-06-22 04:53:20 <gmaxwell> And it's unlikely that there was a 6 block deep spilt today.
 865 2011-06-22 04:53:20 <llama> thats why
 866 2011-06-22 04:53:33 <phrontist> "inputs"?
 867 2011-06-22 04:53:34 <llama> they probably have different default minconf's
 868 2011-06-22 04:53:39 p0s has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 869 2011-06-22 04:53:45 <phrontist> well, the commands always agreed
 870 2011-06-22 04:53:50 <gmaxwell> I don't think getinfo shows unconfirmed transactions either.
 871 2011-06-22 04:54:30 <phrontist> getinfo showed 0.5 [10 minutes elapse] 30.5 [1 hour] 0.5 [1 hour] 30.5
 872 2011-06-22 04:54:35 <phrontist> times very approximate
 873 2011-06-22 04:54:52 <llama> oh...
 874 2011-06-22 04:55:01 <gmaxwell> Did you happen to restart the daemon between these events?
 875 2011-06-22 04:55:05 <phrontist> no
 876 2011-06-22 04:55:09 <llama> was it just "getbalance" or "getbalance '*'" ?
 877 2011-06-22 04:55:28 <phrontist> curl --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getinfo", "params": [] }' -H 'content-type: text/plain;' http://127.0.0.1:8332/
 878 2011-06-22 04:55:42 <llama> hmm
 879 2011-06-22 04:56:10 <phrontist> well I'm glad you find it confusing :-)
 880 2011-06-22 04:56:30 <gmaxwell> Well, the timeline you provided is inconsistent with how bitcoin works.
 881 2011-06-22 04:56:45 <gmaxwell> Was there some balance counting bug in .20?
 882 2011-06-22 04:57:20 <llama> was the 30.5 sent in a single tx?
 883 2011-06-22 04:57:36 <llama> you had zero balance, then received 30.5 all at once?
 884 2011-06-22 04:58:07 <phrontist> the 30 was sent in one tx, afaik
 885 2011-06-22 04:58:15 <phrontist> it was from someone in this channel, blanking on the name
 886 2011-06-22 04:58:25 <phrontist> and no, I had 0.5 to start with
 887 2011-06-22 04:58:40 <llama> did you send any tx's from the client?
 888 2011-06-22 04:58:44 rusty has left ()
 889 2011-06-22 04:58:45 <phrontist> no
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 891 2011-06-22 04:58:58 <gmaxwell> phrontist: did you happen to see your block count when this all happened?
 892 2011-06-22 04:59:04 <phrontist> no, sorry
 893 2011-06-22 04:59:08 <gmaxwell> phrontist: and do you have generation enabled?
 894 2011-06-22 04:59:12 <phrontist> I do
 895 2011-06-22 04:59:15 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 896 2011-06-22 04:59:23 <llama> lol
 897 2011-06-22 04:59:24 <phrontist> :-) ?
 898 2011-06-22 04:59:30 <gmaxwell> phrontist: did you just bring this node up recently?
 899 2011-06-22 04:59:38 <phrontist> bring what up?
 900 2011-06-22 04:59:42 <phrontist> generation?
 901 2011-06-22 04:59:44 <gmaxwell> Your copy of bitcoin.
 902 2011-06-22 04:59:48 <phrontist> yeah
 903 2011-06-22 04:59:57 <phrontist> 6 hours ago?
 904 2011-06-22 05:00:14 <phrontist> still confused...
 905 2011-06-22 05:00:22 <gmaxwell> Right. Here is what happened. You were out of sync with the network. You didn't have the blockchain yet, or at least not much of it. You heard about the transaction over the network
 906 2011-06-22 05:00:37 <llama> ahh yea!
 907 2011-06-22 05:00:38 <llama> good call
 908 2011-06-22 05:00:39 <gmaxwell> Then _you_ generated a block that contained it. Making it show up as confirmed.
 909 2011-06-22 05:00:46 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 910 2011-06-22 05:01:00 <gmaxwell> But your block was extending some long ago part of the chain, it had no hope of surviving.
 911 2011-06-22 05:01:11 <phrontist> ohhhhh
 912 2011-06-22 05:01:16 <gmaxwell> So once your client got more data from the network ... poof balance gone.
 913 2011-06-22 05:01:19 <phrontist> riiiiiight
 914 2011-06-22 05:01:25 <phrontist> then it came back when someone else confirmed it
 915 2011-06-22 05:01:27 <phrontist> yeah.
 916 2011-06-22 05:01:30 <phrontist> very clever.
 917 2011-06-22 05:01:37 <gmaxwell> Then it finally caught up with the real network which probably confirmed it 10 minutes after it was sent. :)
 918 2011-06-22 05:01:41 <llama> YOUR CLIENT SO STUPID!!
 919 2011-06-22 05:01:47 Clipse has joined
 920 2011-06-22 05:01:52 <gmaxwell> Well, there are bugs in the initial bringup now.
 921 2011-06-22 05:02:12 <gmaxwell> The process of fetching the blockchain triggers anti-flooding logic in your peers and they drop your connection. (DOH)
 922 2011-06-22 05:02:17 <gmaxwell> so it goes slowly.
 923 2011-06-22 05:02:20 <Diablo-D3> ...
 924 2011-06-22 05:02:21 <llama> I thought gen didn't enable itself until the block chain was was done downloading?
 925 2011-06-22 05:02:23 * Diablo-D3 facepalms
 926 2011-06-22 05:02:31 <Diablo-D3> llama: you can turn it on, but it wont run
 927 2011-06-22 05:02:36 <gmaxwell> hmph.
 928 2011-06-22 05:02:53 <gmaxwell> I thought if you forced it on it would go on.
 929 2011-06-22 05:02:56 <llama> there goes that theory...
 930 2011-06-22 05:03:07 <gmaxwell> man, but it fits the behavior perfectly.
 931 2011-06-22 05:03:10 <llama> grep the log
 932 2011-06-22 05:03:12 <phrontist> well I get a "hashespersec":2082573
 933 2011-06-22 05:03:16 <phrontist> and did during all this
 934 2011-06-22 05:03:19 <gmaxwell> ha!
 935 2011-06-22 05:03:20 <gmaxwell> see!
 936 2011-06-22 05:03:20 <Diablo-D3> maybe someone broke it
 937 2011-06-22 05:03:23 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 938 2011-06-22 05:03:25 <phrontist> so... pretty sure it was generating
 939 2011-06-22 05:03:33 <Diablo-D3> didnt gavin's trunk remove generating anyhow?
 940 2011-06-22 05:03:34 <llama> grep found db.log
 941 2011-06-22 05:03:43 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: just from the gui
 942 2011-06-22 05:03:49 <llama> err, debuglog
 943 2011-06-22 05:03:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats retarded
 944 2011-06-22 05:03:54 <Diablo-D3> should be removed altogether
 945 2011-06-22 05:03:55 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it's still useful for testnet
 946 2011-06-22 05:04:02 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin isnt even the fastest cpu miner
 947 2011-06-22 05:04:18 <gmaxwell> I know, but— its fine for testnet.
 948 2011-06-22 05:04:43 fpgaminer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 949 2011-06-22 05:04:47 <Diablo-D3> its not realistic on testnet.
 950 2011-06-22 05:04:51 fpgaminer has joined
 951 2011-06-22 05:04:56 <gmaxwell> difficulty there is 38, it's fine.
 952 2011-06-22 05:05:04 <phrontist> I would, but I should get back to work
 953 2011-06-22 05:05:05 <Diablo-D3> let me rephrase
 954 2011-06-22 05:05:09 <Diablo-D3> its not a realistic use of bitcoin.
 955 2011-06-22 05:05:09 <phrontist> assembly programming assignments!
 956 2011-06-22 05:05:16 <Diablo-D3> phrontist: hah
 957 2011-06-22 05:05:17 <gmaxwell> phrontist: have fun.
 958 2011-06-22 05:05:37 <phrontist> actually, it might be fun to try to write a highly optimized miner is assembly
 959 2011-06-22 05:05:42 <phrontist> not practical
 960 2011-06-22 05:05:45 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: also, actually removing it wouldn't eliminate any code.
 961 2011-06-22 05:05:54 <gmaxwell> phrontist: see jgarzik's cpuminer
 962 2011-06-22 05:05:54 <phrontist> but I'd learn a lot
 963 2011-06-22 05:06:39 <phrontist> C is so high level though :-)
 964 2011-06-22 05:06:47 <phrontist> I don't even use macros.
 965 2011-06-22 05:06:57 <gmaxwell> phrontist: write super fast ASM ecdsa code using the new i7 CLMUL. Much more useful. :)
 966 2011-06-22 05:07:07 <phrontist> or a keyboard... I've just got a shift register on a breadboard in front of me, and I wave magnets to bang bits into it
 967 2011-06-22 05:07:21 <upb> wth:P
 968 2011-06-22 05:07:34 <gmaxwell> http://xkcd.com/378/
 969 2011-06-22 05:07:55 <phrontist> before I go - has there been any talk of a bitcoin conference?
 970 2011-06-22 05:08:23 <Diablo-D3> dude
 971 2011-06-22 05:08:30 <Diablo-D3> until you pay me to show up at one
 972 2011-06-22 05:08:32 <Diablo-D3> Im not going
 973 2011-06-22 05:08:48 <phrontist> gmaxwell: exactly
 974 2011-06-22 05:08:53 <phrontist> Diablo-D3: why's that?
 975 2011-06-22 05:08:56 <upb> hahahaha @ comic
 976 2011-06-22 05:09:03 phearful has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 977 2011-06-22 05:09:56 <Diablo-D3> phrontist: dude, fucking conferences are expensive
 978 2011-06-22 05:10:02 <Diablo-D3> do I look like Im made of money?
 979 2011-06-22 05:11:03 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 980 2011-06-22 05:11:49 * xelister licks Diablo-D3's arm
 981 2011-06-22 05:11:53 <xelister> well it tastes like so
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 997 2011-06-22 05:42:51 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: I still use the built in bitcoin minner on weeds,  you don't need mega minners on smaller nets
 998 2011-06-22 05:43:27 weinerk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 999 2011-06-22 05:44:24 <Diablo-D3> sacarlson: ufasoft and cpuminer are like twice as fast.
1000 2011-06-22 05:45:01 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: ya but are they setup for multi crypto or do I have to rewrite them also?
1001 2011-06-22 05:45:11 nutcase has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1002 2011-06-22 05:45:15 EPiSKiNG has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1003 2011-06-22 05:45:43 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: at 300kh/sec I still mine blocks every 10 minits
1004 2011-06-22 05:45:50 <Diablo-D3> jesus
1005 2011-06-22 05:45:54 <Diablo-D3> imagine if I used my miner
1006 2011-06-22 05:45:55 p0s- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1007 2011-06-22 05:45:59 <Diablo-D3> I'd mine a block every 3 seconds
1008 2011-06-22 05:46:04 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1009 2011-06-22 05:46:10 nutcase has joined
1010 2011-06-22 05:46:11 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: yup
1011 2011-06-22 05:46:33 <n4m347yp3> ya, 200 is a bit slower but 300 would be hawt
1012 2011-06-22 05:47:10 Justasic has joined
1013 2011-06-22 05:49:24 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: but I'm making a new version that will still only allow 1 block to be created in my new chain on the even of a block on bitcoin to prevent high powered minners to create too many spits
1014 2011-06-22 05:49:28 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1015 2011-06-22 05:49:47 <sacarlson> even = event
1016 2011-06-22 05:50:14 weinerk has joined
1017 2011-06-22 05:51:29 johnlockwood has quit (Quit: johnlockwood)
1018 2011-06-22 05:52:14 MtGox_Adam has quit (Quit: MtGox_Adam)
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1020 2011-06-22 05:57:56 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1021 2011-06-22 05:57:58 <sacarlson> then it just becomes a race after a bitcoin block creation the fastest miners race to create a new block in a different chain
1022 2011-06-22 05:58:28 clarkbox has joined
1023 2011-06-22 05:59:08 <sacarlson> would that work to prevent what I saw happen in testnet some time back where a split made my account loose 50 tnbtc?
1024 2011-06-22 06:00:14 <lfm> sacarlson: that testnet split was a classic "over 50%" hack
1025 2011-06-22 06:00:20 tomat is now known as tomat_
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1027 2011-06-22 06:01:25 <sacarlson> lfm: yes so even with an over 50% attack would limit of creation of blocks at the same rate as bitcoin blocks prevent that?
1028 2011-06-22 06:02:57 <lfm> I dont know what you mean. you dont want to use different rules on testnet if you can help it cuz it is suposed to be a test platform for the main net
1029 2011-06-22 06:03:23 <sacarlson> lfm: no these rules are on another chain not testnet
1030 2011-06-22 06:03:58 <sacarlson> lfm: for example there are other testnets like weeds but I'll make another one for this rule base
1031 2011-06-22 06:04:38 <lfm> I still dont understand what you mean. artificially limiting the block rate would probably make you MORE exposed to powerfull groups takeovers
1032 2011-06-22 06:04:38 hachque has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1033 2011-06-22 06:04:48 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
1034 2011-06-22 06:05:33 <sacarlson> lfm: I would use the data out of the bitcoin block to prove that time and to limit creation speed
1035 2011-06-22 06:05:57 <lfm> i dont see how you could do that
1036 2011-06-22 06:06:25 <lfm> you cant prove it wasnt done AFTER the bitcoin block even long after
1037 2011-06-22 06:06:46 Redexx has joined
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1039 2011-06-22 06:07:50 <sacarlson> lfm: by having the hash of the bitcoin hashed into  each of the blocks created and validating them it would think you could prove time
1040 2011-06-22 06:08:43 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1041 2011-06-22 06:09:39 <lfm> all you prov is it wasnt done before that time, not after or even long after. say I didnt like a block, I take the block chin up to the point just before it and start makeing a fork privately ignoreing what everyone else is doing. If I have more power than the rest put together I will sooner or later have a better fork.
1042 2011-06-22 06:10:05 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1043 2011-06-22 06:10:25 <sacarlson> lfm:your right it won't work
1044 2011-06-22 06:10:57 <sacarlson> lfm: they still have 20 minits to play and make forks
1045 2011-06-22 06:11:25 <lfm> and if they backdate blocks tey can go bach further
1046 2011-06-22 06:11:54 <lfm> they can go back further
1047 2011-06-22 06:12:11 underscor has joined
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1049 2011-06-22 06:12:44 <sacarlson> lfm: ya this solution won't work, I'll have to find another way that I hope will not require puting anything into the bitcoin blocks
1050 2011-06-22 06:13:45 <sacarlson> lfm: so back to my other method of zero transaction into bitcoin to link into a new chain then
1051 2011-06-22 06:13:47 kR105 has joined
1052 2011-06-22 06:14:12 <lfm> sacarlson: its like the block zero signature with the newpaper headline -- it proves it was not made earlier but it could have be made much later
1053 2011-06-22 06:14:19 num1-afk is now known as num1
1054 2011-06-22 06:14:20 <sacarlson> lfm: were I would have to pay transaction fee's in bitcoin
1055 2011-06-22 06:15:23 <kR105> hello, somebody running a testnet node? my bitcoind can't find any node for some reason, so i'm going to try with -addnode, thanks!
1056 2011-06-22 06:15:35 Nexus7 has joined
1057 2011-06-22 06:15:40 TheZimm is now known as away!~TheZimm@c-98-226-5-69.hsd1.il.comcast.net|TheZimm
1058 2011-06-22 06:15:44 <lfm> kr105 I could help you with that
1059 2011-06-22 06:16:24 <sacarlson> kR105: I am
1060 2011-06-22 06:16:50 <sacarlson> kr105 you can addnode=www.beertokens.info
1061 2011-06-22 06:17:08 <lfm> dont you need the number?
1062 2011-06-22 06:17:20 <sacarlson> lfm: not with the newer version
1063 2011-06-22 06:17:32 <sacarlson> lfm: my version has dns support
1064 2011-06-22 06:17:53 <lfm> I am still on 0.3.20 on that machine
1065 2011-06-22 06:18:02 <sacarlson> lfm: kR105: but if you have the older version you will have to dns lookup that first
1066 2011-06-22 06:18:03 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1067 2011-06-22 06:18:26 <lfm> 115.87.7.135 ?
1068 2011-06-22 06:19:05 <devrandom> [1;3A
1069 2011-06-22 06:19:17 MtGox_Adam has joined
1070 2011-06-22 06:19:19 <sacarlson> lfm: that sounds like me
1071 2011-06-22 06:19:51 <sacarlson> lfm: but it's dynamic so may not be that later
1072 2011-06-22 06:20:14 <lfm> ok, I wont put it in the permanent script
1073 2011-06-22 06:20:45 <lfm> is     "blocks" : 25469,
1074 2011-06-22 06:20:47 <lfm> right?
1075 2011-06-22 06:21:15 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1076 2011-06-22 06:21:21 <sacarlson> lfm: "blocks" : 25469, same here
1077 2011-06-22 06:21:27 underscor has joined
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1079 2011-06-22 06:22:36 <lfm> kR105: are you connected yet? what blocks do you have?
1080 2011-06-22 06:22:58 <kR105> can't connect, i get this message:
1081 2011-06-22 06:23:03 <kR105> trying connection 115.87.7.135:18333 lastseen=-335756.6hrs lasttry=-363534.3hrs connection timeout
1082 2011-06-22 06:23:09 <kR105> on the debug.log
1083 2011-06-22 06:23:22 <lfm> kR105: can you ping that address?
1084 2011-06-22 06:24:04 TheZimm has quit (Quit: When will we learn?)
1085 2011-06-22 06:24:20 <lfm> sacarlson: doh you block ping?
1086 2011-06-22 06:24:29 <sacarlson> lfm: no I don't think so
1087 2011-06-22 06:24:43 <sacarlson> lfm: it should ping ok
1088 2011-06-22 06:25:17 <sacarlson> lfm: but if I already have may max of 8 connections would it let him connect?
1089 2011-06-22 06:25:37 <lfm> still should I think
1090 2011-06-22 06:25:40 weinerk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1091 2011-06-22 06:26:14 <sacarlson> lfm: I bet if I reset and I will need to find new connections his will connect
1092 2011-06-22 06:26:43 <kR105> I can ping from my laptop, but not from my server. Also if i telnet to 115.87.7.135:18333 from my laptop i get timeout
1093 2011-06-22 06:26:45 mulka_ has joined
1094 2011-06-22 06:26:46 mulka_ has quit (Client Quit)
1095 2011-06-22 06:26:57 <lfm> are you actually using -maxconnect=8?
1096 2011-06-22 06:27:18 <sacarlson> lfm: I think that's the default value 8,  I just reset
1097 2011-06-22 06:27:28 rtward has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1098 2011-06-22 06:27:29 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1099 2011-06-22 06:27:35 <lfm> actual its the default minconnect
1100 2011-06-22 06:27:37 rtward has joined
1101 2011-06-22 06:27:43 <sacarlson> lfm: I now have 6 conections
1102 2011-06-22 06:28:02 <lfm> sacarlson: I cant actually ping or tracerout you either
1103 2011-06-22 06:28:36 <sacarlson> lfm: can you see http://exchange.beertokens.info
1104 2011-06-22 06:29:09 Phoebus has joined
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1106 2011-06-22 06:29:38 <sacarlson> lfm: I'm back up to 8 connections on testnet
1107 2011-06-22 06:29:42 <lfm> yup, firefox connects
1108 2011-06-22 06:30:06 <sacarlson> lfm: so you can't ping me?
1109 2011-06-22 06:30:12 weinerk has joined
1110 2011-06-22 06:30:14 <lfm> someone or something is blocking ping I guess
1111 2011-06-22 06:30:34 <sacarlson> lfm: I'll have to check my router setting then
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1113 2011-06-22 06:31:06 <lfm> traceroute is stopped at 119-46-176-110.static.asianet.co.th (119.46.176.110)
1114 2011-06-22 06:31:07 mulka has joined
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1121 2011-06-22 06:35:36 <sacarlson> lfm: must be on my isp side then,  I also note another fault in my router setting I only pass 38333  and not 8333 and 18333  so I will fix that
1122 2011-06-22 06:36:11 <lfm> ah that could do it
1123 2011-06-22 06:36:26 <sacarlson> lfm: so I was only leting 38333 weeds to connect in
1124 2011-06-22 06:38:19 <lfm> gotta go, Ill leave my testnet running, it has a gpu so it should make some blocks too for it.
1125 2011-06-22 06:38:40 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
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1129 2011-06-22 06:40:37 <kR105> ty it's dowloading the testnet blockchain now :)
1130 2011-06-22 06:40:42 <sacarlson> kR105: ok I opened my 18333 port now it should work
1131 2011-06-22 06:40:48 Txyru has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1132 2011-06-22 06:41:12 AStove has joined
1133 2011-06-22 06:41:37 Edogaa has joined
1134 2011-06-22 06:41:43 <Edogaa> i keep getting mtgox messages :/
1135 2011-06-22 06:41:50 SomeoneWeird has joined
1136 2011-06-22 06:41:50 <Edogaa> or emails now
1137 2011-06-22 06:41:52 <Edogaa> ugh.
1138 2011-06-22 06:42:03 nefario has joined
1139 2011-06-22 06:42:49 <Edogaa> oh, okay this one really is from mtgox
1140 2011-06-22 06:42:58 <kR105> the last one is legit
1141 2011-06-22 06:43:19 <Edogaa> mmhmm
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1156 2011-06-22 07:01:46 <egecko> anyone know where the VERSION is actually defined in the src?
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1162 2011-06-22 07:04:17 <egecko> serialize.h.. of course
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1211 2011-06-22 07:49:52 <cosurgi> what are ~/.bitcoin/database/log.* files?
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1231 2011-06-22 08:07:24 <james22> Hello :) Where can i read about how to transfer money from one bitcoin account to another?
1232 2011-06-22 08:07:49 <james22> programmatically
1233 2011-06-22 08:09:01 <edcba> use the rpc server
1234 2011-06-22 08:09:11 <edcba> wait i can't read questions correctly
1235 2011-06-22 08:09:14 <edcba> hmm
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1242 2011-06-22 08:15:12 <sacarlson> james22: and you just want to move from your internal accounts?  you could as edcba said use rpc with curl in a bash script or what language you want to use?
1243 2011-06-22 08:16:17 <james22> sacarlson: I would like to move from my internal account to an external accout and also how i can accept bitcoins from an external account
1244 2011-06-22 08:16:36 <sacarlson> james22: with php?
1245 2011-06-22 08:16:47 <james22> sacarlson: yes ! :)
1246 2011-06-22 08:17:30 <sacarlson> james22: a good example is the britcoin exchange in github  I'll look it up or look up
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1249 2011-06-22 08:18:17 <sacarlson> james22: or take a look at http://www.nostate.com/3962/bitcoin-php-a-php-library-for-bitcoin/
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1251 2011-06-22 08:19:06 <james22> sacarlson: I will have a look at it. Thanks alot :)
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1257 2011-06-22 08:22:07 <sacarlson> james22: another very good example of a complete system is http://gitorious.org/intersango/
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1266 2011-06-22 08:30:03 <Joric> why there's so many closely spaced blocks today? http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com it's totally crazy
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1268 2011-06-22 08:30:37 <jeremias>  the hash rate of the network has risen up dramatically
1269 2011-06-22 08:30:41 <Joric> heard network hash total went from 10 to 14 thashes this morning
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1302 2011-06-22 09:16:37 <tuoppi> MagicalTux: Are the withdrawals that were made before the hassle prosessed normally?
1303 2011-06-22 09:16:57 <MagicalTux> tuoppi: SEPA ?
1304 2011-06-22 09:17:44 <tuoppi> Yup
1305 2011-06-22 09:18:11 <tuoppi> I withdrew last weeks wednesday or thursday and have not received it.
1306 2011-06-22 09:18:21 <MagicalTux> yeah, it's still being processed, got a bit late because of the bank's limits
1307 2011-06-22 09:18:34 <MagicalTux> if you know your ref id, email it to info@mtgox.com for status
1308 2011-06-22 09:19:28 <tuoppi> It can only be seen by logging in to the account afaik, so I dont :(
1309 2011-06-22 09:19:34 <MagicalTux> ok
1310 2011-06-22 09:19:44 <MagicalTux> anyway processing is still happening today
1311 2011-06-22 09:19:52 <tuoppi> ok great, thanks
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1315 2011-06-22 09:20:05 <MagicalTux> LR however was frozen
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1356 2011-06-22 09:58:04 <epscy> ;;bc,stats
1357 2011-06-22 09:58:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 132532 | Current Difficulty: 877226.66666667 | Next Difficulty At Block: 133055 | Next Difficulty In: 523 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 2 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1330062.51814252
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1411 2011-06-22 11:02:22 <phedny> I'm working on an interesting idea with some people, but there is one question that we need an answer to to be sure this idea may work
1412 2011-06-22 11:02:50 <phedny> if someone creates a transaction of, say, 10 micro-BTC, this will be blocked, as a prevention against DoS
1413 2011-06-22 11:03:22 <sipa> if it lacks fee, it will most likely not be relayed through the network
1414 2011-06-22 11:03:23 <phedny> but would a transaction with 0.01001 BTC in and 0.00001 BTC out (thus 0.01 BTC fee) go through?
1415 2011-06-22 11:03:47 <sipa> yes
1416 2011-06-22 11:03:52 <phedny> okay, great :D
1417 2011-06-22 11:03:55 <sipa> but that's not the only rule
1418 2011-06-22 11:03:56 netxshare has joined
1419 2011-06-22 11:04:51 <sipa> may i ask why such a transaction would be useful?
1420 2011-06-22 11:05:10 PantherModern has joined
1421 2011-06-22 11:05:21 <PantherModern> Hey
1422 2011-06-22 11:05:31 <phedny> because in our concept the micro-BTC has some special meaning and can be attached a much higher value than normal BTC
1423 2011-06-22 11:05:40 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1424 2011-06-22 11:05:42 <phedny> we'll write up a paper soon
1425 2011-06-22 11:05:49 <PantherModern> Are there any modules or anything that allow me to open and read wallet.dat in python?
1426 2011-06-22 11:06:00 <sipa> gavin's bitcointools
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1428 2011-06-22 11:06:40 <PantherModern> CAn you send bitcoins with it sipa?
1429 2011-06-22 11:06:48 <sipa> no
1430 2011-06-22 11:07:13 <prof7bit> what version of miniupnpc do i need to compile? the latest does not seem to work?
1431 2011-06-22 11:07:25 <sipa> read the instruction
1432 2011-06-22 11:07:26 <sipa> +s
1433 2011-06-22 11:07:32 <PantherModern> sipa, Would that be easily possible in python?
1434 2011-06-22 11:07:35 <PantherModern> Sending bitcoins that is.
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1436 2011-06-22 11:08:22 <sipa> PantherModern: if you want to do that, you should connect through rpc with bitcoind
1437 2011-06-22 11:08:44 <PantherModern> Thanks
1438 2011-06-22 11:08:54 <PantherModern> Shame i can't do it all with one python module. XD
1439 2011-06-22 11:08:57 * PantherModern is being lazy.
1440 2011-06-22 11:09:21 <sipa> well, you need almost a complete bitcoin implementation to do that
1441 2011-06-22 11:09:31 <prof7bit> http://pastebin.com/rhUuDtUJ
1442 2011-06-22 11:10:03 <sipa> prof7bit: build-unix.txt tells you you need miniupnp 1.5
1443 2011-06-22 11:10:20 <sipa> not the latest dev release (which version number also starts with 1.5, unfortunately)
1444 2011-06-22 11:10:24 <sipa> *whose
1445 2011-06-22 11:10:35 <prof7bit> ok, i will try with 1.5. i just used the latest version.
1446 2011-06-22 11:11:49 <prof7bit> and maybe it would be a good idea to put this info into README and INSTALL files where users are looking for it. and maybe even some configure scrit that checks dependencies and gives meaningful errors
1447 2011-06-22 11:14:34 <sipa> well, soon we'll switch to autotools, which will all detection of dependencies and versions for you
1448 2011-06-22 11:15:26 <prof7bit> ok, the tatest version of miniupnpc that i have installed IS 1.5
1449 2011-06-22 11:15:51 <prof7bit> and there seems to be a function called with wrong umber of arguments
1450 2011-06-22 11:15:56 <sipa> please
1451 2011-06-22 11:16:03 <prof7bit> so this is not the correct version
1452 2011-06-22 11:16:05 <sipa> 13:09:21 < sipa> not the latest dev release (which version number also starts with 1.5, unfortunately)
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1454 2011-06-22 11:18:24 <prof7bit> sorry if i sound a bit unpatient. i spent half of the night to satisfy exotic bleeding edge dependencies on my ubuntu hardy laptop
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1456 2011-06-22 11:19:07 <prof7bit> it almost compiles now... almost-
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1458 2011-06-22 11:19:26 <sipa> just download version 1.5
1459 2011-06-22 11:19:36 <sipa> not the dev release (which *also* has version 1.5)
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1461 2011-06-22 11:21:02 <prof7bit> found it. making and installing now...
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1467 2011-06-22 11:29:33 <prof7bit> ok, net.cpp compiles now ok...
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1470 2011-06-22 11:31:39 <prof7bit> irc.cpp
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1472 2011-06-22 11:32:11 <topi`> what's the situation with mtgox now? is magicaltux working on it?
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1476 2011-06-22 11:35:03 <prof7bit> if i make a patch that will allow it to accept a -wallet parameter on the command line to separately specify path and name of the wallet, are there chances that this would be accepted?
1477 2011-06-22 11:36:42 <topi`> prof7bit: if it's clean and doesn't compromise existing functionality, then why not
1478 2011-06-22 11:37:22 <MagicalTux> [20:31:12] <topi`> what's the situation with mtgox now? is magicaltux working on it? <- yes, I am
1479 2011-06-22 11:37:22 <topi`> prof7bit: the tough dependencies (at least on ubuntu) are the various libboost packages
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1481 2011-06-22 11:37:29 <xelister> topi`: there's #mtgox
1482 2011-06-22 11:37:32 <topi`> MagicalTux: ok, so you're not on vacation :)
1483 2011-06-22 11:37:57 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1484 2011-06-22 11:38:03 <MagicalTux> topi`: unfortunately not
1485 2011-06-22 11:38:21 <topi`> MagicalTux: ok, good luck
1486 2011-06-22 11:38:38 <prof7bit> libbboost was actually pretty easy: download, unzip, ./bootsrap.sh, then maually copy boost to /usr/include and stage/lib to /usr/lib
1487 2011-06-22 11:38:43 <xelister> regarding
1488 2011-06-22 11:38:45 <xelister> FLASH NEWS
1489 2011-06-22 11:39:12 <xelister> "Unknown BitCoin network currency lobbying group bribes Japan gov 0.5 mil USD to discontinue extradiction laws with USA"
1490 2011-06-22 11:39:14 * xelister >_>
1491 2011-06-22 11:39:29 <topi`> prof7bit: ok, I just cherrypicked the right .debs and installed manually
1492 2011-06-22 11:39:51 <prof7bit> i don't have the required versions in the hardy repository
1493 2011-06-22 11:40:05 <prof7bit> this was the first thing i tried but they are too old
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1497 2011-06-22 11:41:13 <prof7bit> main.cpp....
1498 2011-06-22 11:41:27 mulka has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
1499 2011-06-22 11:41:41 <prof7bit> ...c++ compilers are so slooooow.
1500 2011-06-22 11:41:46 Joric_ has joined
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1506 2011-06-22 11:43:05 <prof7bit> (i am used to pascal where you compile and link an entire GUI toolkit and an IDE of the caliber of netbeans in 5 minutes)
1507 2011-06-22 11:43:07 <xelister> prof7bit: ofc using -j 4 ?  you can also use some distcc for distributed and/or cached compilation
1508 2011-06-22 11:43:17 <xelister> prof7bit: lol I have same experience.
1509 2011-06-22 11:43:49 <prof7bit> i only have this old laptop (and an even older desktop PII)
1510 2011-06-22 11:44:41 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1512 2011-06-22 11:45:54 <phantomcircuit> xelister, the issue is memory consumption
1513 2011-06-22 11:46:17 <phantomcircuit> the ridiculously unstructured nature of the mainline client means that gcc balloons to about 500MB for each file
1514 2011-06-22 11:48:10 <prof7bit> and this is the inherent problem of c where the compiler has to parse each and every header file over and over again.
1515 2011-06-22 11:48:33 <prof7bit> rpc.cpp...
1516 2011-06-22 11:49:44 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's more a problem of bitcoin than of c
1517 2011-06-22 11:49:55 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, header.h is loverly isn't it
1518 2011-06-22 11:50:34 BlueMatt has joined
1519 2011-06-22 11:51:02 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
1520 2011-06-22 11:51:46 <prof7bit> when doing a lot pascal to have a comparison then it becomes quickly a general problem of c and c++. most people would not believe how fast compiling something could be until they see it with their own eyes.
1521 2011-06-22 11:52:09 <yorick> using bitcoind, is there a way to notify my application once a payment has been received?
1522 2011-06-22 11:52:23 <yorick> or do I have to poll
1523 2011-06-22 11:52:41 enquirer has joined
1524 2011-06-22 11:55:15 <phantomcircuit> yorick, poll, but dont do it to fast you'll crash it...
1525 2011-06-22 11:55:15 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1526 2011-06-22 11:55:28 <prof7bit> what???
1527 2011-06-22 11:55:33 Redixx has quit ()
1528 2011-06-22 11:55:53 <prof7bit> crash?
1529 2011-06-22 11:56:00 <phantomcircuit> rapid rpc calls have a tendency to crash bitcoind
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1532 2011-06-22 11:57:16 <prof7bit> it seems there is a LOT of things to fix until it is ready for productive use
1533 2011-06-22 11:57:41 red_dawn_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1534 2011-06-22 11:58:09 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, yeah...
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1538 2011-06-22 12:01:38 <prof7bit> i recently saw a discussion on the forum where someone asked for the ability to specify the path to the wallet on the command line and someone else answered: "whats wrong with symlinks, where is the problem?". I hope this is not the general attitude of the core dev team.
1539 2011-06-22 12:02:00 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, it is more or less
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1541 2011-06-22 12:02:07 AStove has joined
1542 2011-06-22 12:02:36 <xelister> prof7bit: well overall windows users should go fuck them with a rake,
1543 2011-06-22 12:02:49 <xelister> but indeed it is nice to support options and all, also on lame OSes
1544 2011-06-22 12:02:56 <xelister> *themselves
1545 2011-06-22 12:02:58 <mtrlt> but symlinks are possible on windows
1546 2011-06-22 12:03:03 <mtrlt> at least on win7 :p
1547 2011-06-22 12:03:16 <mtrlt> i know because i use 'em
1548 2011-06-22 12:03:36 <xelister> indeed mtrlt
1549 2011-06-22 12:03:37 <yorick> phantomcircuit: too fast being every second?
1550 2011-06-22 12:03:39 <xelister> but almost noone knows that
1551 2011-06-22 12:03:42 <xelister> of the users
1552 2011-06-22 12:03:52 <mtrlt> well most windows users don't even know what a symlink is :P
1553 2011-06-22 12:04:00 <phantomcircuit> yorick, id go more like every 30 seconds minimum
1554 2011-06-22 12:04:14 <phantomcircuit> yorick, you can call simple things like getbalance more often
1555 2011-06-22 12:04:25 Nicksasa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1556 2011-06-22 12:04:29 <phantomcircuit> but listtransactions is slow as hell and likely to cause a race condition
1557 2011-06-22 12:04:56 Nicksasa has joined
1558 2011-06-22 12:05:02 <yorick> phantomcircuit: that sounds like bitcoind sucks
1559 2011-06-22 12:05:12 <mtrlt> if it can cause a race condition, the code sucks ass
1560 2011-06-22 12:05:24 <prof7bit> nobody would consider the symlink as an acceptable solution. never. you wont see this with any other software. imagine trying to edit a file with vi and it could only open one fixed filename and you would have to change a symlink in ~/.vi/ everytime before you start vi.
1561 2011-06-22 12:05:38 <BlueMatt> if someone doesnt know what a symlink is, they probably shouldnt be moving their wallet around and such
1562 2011-06-22 12:05:41 <phungus> http://www.brendangregg.com/specials.html
1563 2011-06-22 12:05:48 AnatolV has joined
1564 2011-06-22 12:05:49 <mtrlt> prof7bit: how often do you need to change the wallet?
1565 2011-06-22 12:06:00 <phungus> icmpcharger ICMP driver trickle charger.
1566 2011-06-22 12:06:01 <phungus> hah
1567 2011-06-22 12:06:06 <prof7bit> a lot of times. because i have mmore than one
1568 2011-06-22 12:06:32 <yorick> phantomcircuit: so how does mybitcoin do it
1569 2011-06-22 12:06:33 <prof7bit> changing the wallet is needed functionality.
1570 2011-06-22 12:06:37 <yorick> they have a SCI
1571 2011-06-22 12:06:48 <mtrlt> prof7bit: agreed
1572 2011-06-22 12:06:55 <yorick> do they just poll?
1573 2011-06-22 12:07:00 <phantomcircuit> yorick, they have a single bitcoind and dump to a sql db
1574 2011-06-22 12:07:36 <prof7bit> BlueMatt: they are FORCED to move their wallet around all the time because they cannot just open it in-place!
1575 2011-06-22 12:08:01 <yorick> phantomcircuit: dump how?
1576 2011-06-22 12:08:03 <mtrlt> yea it should be easier to change the wallet. if someone indeed needs many wallets
1577 2011-06-22 12:08:31 <phantomcircuit> yorick, they make the rpc calls as often as possible and then put the info into sql
1578 2011-06-22 12:08:31 <prof7bit> also there needs to be a way to switch the wallet without restarting the client. 10 minutes startup time and 10 minutes shutdown time for switching the wallet is inacceptable.
1579 2011-06-22 12:09:41 <MrSam> hmm
1580 2011-06-22 12:09:44 <yorick> phantomcircuit: well that sucks
1581 2011-06-22 12:09:44 <MrSam> anyone here
1582 2011-06-22 12:10:07 <yorick> MrSam: no
1583 2011-06-22 12:10:30 <mtrlt> never
1584 2011-06-22 12:10:35 <MrSam> i'm a bit struggeling with pushpool rewrite target, since i'm on my own network where the target is "difficulty" : 0.12500000,
1585 2011-06-22 12:10:54 <MrSam> so pushpool always thinks that the result is not valid enough to give to the bitcoind
1586 2011-06-22 12:11:12 <mtrlt> you shouldn't go easier than H==0 diff anyway :p
1587 2011-06-22 12:11:18 <MrSam> preventing pushpool to do that is not an issue
1588 2011-06-22 12:11:19 <MrSam> but
1589 2011-06-22 12:11:33 <MrSam> #define EASY_TARGET "00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
1590 2011-06-22 12:11:39 <MrSam> what is easy target here ?
1591 2011-06-22 12:11:43 <mtrlt> that's diff 1
1592 2011-06-22 12:11:44 RobboNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1593 2011-06-22 12:11:47 <MrSam> bleh
1594 2011-06-22 12:12:06 <yorick> phantomcircuit: can't bitcoind be patched to do that better?
1595 2011-06-22 12:12:08 johnsa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1596 2011-06-22 12:12:14 <mtrlt> but most miners can't handle targets higher than H==0 (first 8 hexadecimals 0, rest F)
1597 2011-06-22 12:12:19 <phantomcircuit> yorick, probably
1598 2011-06-22 12:12:28 <mtrlt> probably none can
1599 2011-06-22 12:12:33 <yorick> and it is not because?
1600 2011-06-22 12:12:36 <MrSam> mtrlt: yeah thats the default setting
1601 2011-06-22 12:12:44 johnsa has joined
1602 2011-06-22 12:13:03 <MrSam> hmm
1603 2011-06-22 12:13:18 <phantomcircuit> yorick, the code base is so bad you might break something worse trying to fix it
1604 2011-06-22 12:13:21 <MrSam> the best solution would be to find a testnet in a box wallet with difficulty 2 or so
1605 2011-06-22 12:13:36 <MrSam> because testnet itself is 60 or 70 i think
1606 2011-06-22 12:14:23 Stellar has joined
1607 2011-06-22 12:14:30 <MrSam> and http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/ is 1 as well
1608 2011-06-22 12:14:41 <MrSam> so pushpool would stil think that al submits are a proof of concept
1609 2011-06-22 12:15:00 <xelister> MrSam: working on jgarzik'z pool?
1610 2011-06-22 12:15:06 <MrSam> not really
1611 2011-06-22 12:15:16 <xelister> wait, define. that is in the client?
1612 2011-06-22 12:15:34 <MrSam> nah pushpool
1613 2011-06-22 12:15:50 <MrSam> to rewrite targets given to clients
1614 2011-06-22 12:16:01 <MrSam> anyway, thx
1615 2011-06-22 12:16:19 <MrSam> conclusion is that i need to get my testnetwork's difficulty over 1
1616 2011-06-22 12:16:32 <xelister> hi MaueButt o/
1617 2011-06-22 12:16:34 <xelister> erm, BlueMatt
1618 2011-06-22 12:17:38 luke-jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1620 2011-06-22 12:18:49 <kinlo> what is the third parameter for the listtransactions command?
1621 2011-06-22 12:20:42 jimpsson has joined
1622 2011-06-22 12:21:14 <kinlo> the help says from, but I don't understand it, does that mean if I say listtransactions "" 4 2 I get transaction 2-6 from the database?
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1625 2011-06-22 12:24:23 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: what are you talking about?
1626 2011-06-22 12:24:40 <BlueMatt> xelister: hi, sorry Im about to leave in a sec though
1627 2011-06-22 12:26:03 ar4s has joined
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1630 2011-06-22 12:29:47 <prof7bit> BlueMatt: you said if someone does not know how to make symlinks he should not use more than one wallet and should not even try to move it around. I said if someone cannot use symlinks he is FORDED to move the wallet around all the time. whats the problem with making it a command line parameter and making File->open wallet menu entry? Show me only ONE other software where one is required to change symlinks everytime one wants
1631 2011-06-22 12:29:47 <prof7bit>  to open/edit a different file with the software?
1632 2011-06-22 12:30:29 <BlueMatt> no, the symlink thing is not related to multiple wallets
1633 2011-06-22 12:30:34 <BlueMatt> its an entirely different issue
1634 2011-06-22 12:30:35 <prof7bit> it is
1635 2011-06-22 12:31:04 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: it's actually not a simple thing to make it so you can specify the wallet path because bitcoin uses multiple bdb dbs and currently the db_home or w/e bdb calls it for all of them are in the same place
1636 2011-06-22 12:31:06 <BlueMatt> the symlink discussion is about using symlinks to use, say, a wallet file in one dir, and the rest of the dbs in another
1637 2011-06-22 12:31:23 <BlueMatt> which is hard due to what jrmithdobbs said
1638 2011-06-22 12:31:25 <BlueMatt> bdb crap
1639 2011-06-22 12:31:31 <sipa> but we should move there eventually
1640 2011-06-22 12:31:38 Cyde has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1641 2011-06-22 12:31:43 <BlueMatt> eventually, but its just not high on the priorities list
1642 2011-06-22 12:31:50 <prof7bit> there is no way to open a different wallet without moving the original wallet and then making a symlink to the other wallet
1643 2011-06-22 12:31:51 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: and i wouldn't suggest using a symlink like bluematt suggests because then you'll have bdb logs that reference different wallet.dats all stored in the same place
1644 2011-06-22 12:31:58 <BlueMatt> general cleanup esp of rpc is much, much higher
1645 2011-06-22 12:32:00 hachque has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1646 2011-06-22 12:32:07 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: which could end badly if you try to restore from said logs to the wrong wallet accidentally
1647 2011-06-22 12:32:13 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1648 2011-06-22 12:32:24 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: oh, well I wasnt suggesting that, I just know some people do
1649 2011-06-22 12:32:36 <jrmithdobbs> well whoever suggests it, I wouldn't ;p
1650 2011-06-22 12:32:43 <BlueMatt> yep
1651 2011-06-22 12:33:02 <prof7bit> BlueMatt: what is the problem with making the path configurable?
1652 2011-06-22 12:33:09 * BlueMatt wants to see no global var access in rpc.cpp before we do such a thing
1653 2011-06-22 12:33:10 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: bdb
1654 2011-06-22 12:33:11 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: it is
1655 2011-06-22 12:33:14 <BlueMatt> -datadir
1656 2011-06-22 12:33:25 <BlueMatt> but beyond that, bdb makes it hard (with the current system)
1657 2011-06-22 12:33:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: did you make a walletclass+autotools merge already?
1658 2011-06-22 12:33:47 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: it's a combination of bdb and satoshi's failure at abstraction throughout the bitcoin code
1659 2011-06-22 12:34:00 <jrmithdobbs> complete and utter failure
1660 2011-06-22 12:34:01 <sipa> yup
1661 2011-06-22 12:34:12 <prof7bit> can it be fixed?
1662 2011-06-22 12:34:14 red_dawn_ has joined
1663 2011-06-22 12:34:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: well, I decided not to bother because jaromil said he would, but afaik he still hasnt so maybe I will eventually
1664 2011-06-22 12:34:32 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: eventually, but thats part of the long-term general cleanup
1665 2011-06-22 12:34:36 weinerk has joined
1666 2011-06-22 12:34:41 <prof7bit> can the bdb logs be deleted?
1667 2011-06-22 12:34:58 <BlueMatt> if it is clean
1668 2011-06-22 12:34:58 <jrmithdobbs> i wouldn't
1669 2011-06-22 12:35:14 <BlueMatt> theoretically its fine if bitcoin closed fine, but still not advisable
1670 2011-06-22 12:35:20 <jrmithdobbs> but yes if you make sure the dbs are clean before deleting/moving the logs, yes
1671 2011-06-22 12:35:23 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1672 2011-06-22 12:35:58 <jrmithdobbs> i think bdb should be dropped and replaced with a more suitable storage format tbqh (at least for wallet)
1673 2011-06-22 12:36:16 <BlueMatt> why the hell would we do that?
1674 2011-06-22 12:36:24 <BlueMatt> thats a complete reinvention of the wheel
1675 2011-06-22 12:36:25 <jrmithdobbs> it's not like the bitcoin code is using bdb properly anyways
1676 2011-06-22 12:36:29 <sipa> we're not using the one advantage bdb has
1677 2011-06-22 12:36:32 <prof7bit> this means the bdb logs for the wallet and the wallet.dat belong together? what about not using the bdb bloat at all for something as simple as the wallet file?
1678 2011-06-22 12:36:40 <sipa> bdb would allow us not to load the entire wallet in memory
1679 2011-06-22 12:36:45 <sipa> but we do anyway
1680 2011-06-22 12:36:49 <jrmithdobbs> exactly
1681 2011-06-22 12:37:09 <BlueMatt> but I still prefer to use an established thing
1682 2011-06-22 12:37:16 <sipa> if we'd just say "cut the crap, we're loading it in memory anyway", much easier formats (even human readable ones) are no problem at all
1683 2011-06-22 12:37:21 <BlueMatt> so we dont reinvent transactions and all that crap
1684 2011-06-22 12:37:22 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i'm not saying invent your own storage format, but something that's easier to backup online with a simple rsync would be great.
1685 2011-06-22 12:37:23 <sipa> but i don't
1686 2011-06-22 12:37:48 <sipa> i think we'll need to move to non-memory loaded wallets somewhere in the medium future anyway
1687 2011-06-22 12:37:52 <BlueMatt> whatever, Ive got to leave for the airport, see you all tomorrow
1688 2011-06-22 12:38:26 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i kinda agree with luke that the wallet should be completely taken out of the bitcoin client itself
1689 2011-06-22 12:38:52 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: all it gains being integrated is easy txn updating, but honestly, that is such a low-resource task that it doesn't really matter
1690 2011-06-22 12:39:08 <sipa> txn updating?
1691 2011-06-22 12:39:08 karnac has joined
1692 2011-06-22 12:39:12 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1693 2011-06-22 12:39:27 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: eg seeing txns not originated from the client doing the updating
1694 2011-06-22 12:39:32 k^^ has joined
1695 2011-06-22 12:39:45 <sipa> and receiving transactions?
1696 2011-06-22 12:39:49 <jrmithdobbs> right
1697 2011-06-22 12:39:55 <sipa> and knowing number of confirmations
1698 2011-06-22 12:40:08 <sipa> i agree there needs to be separation
1699 2011-06-22 12:40:09 <sipa> code-wise
1700 2011-06-22 12:40:15 <prof7bit> <BlueMatt> theoretically its fine if bitcoin closed fine, but still not advisable  <-- does this mean i can corrupt my wallet by unclean shutdown and it would only work with some log files in ~/.bitcoin/ ? do these logs contain secret keys from the wallet?
1701 2011-06-22 12:40:22 <jrmithdobbs> could just store a list of hash160s/addrs for the p2p node, it doesn't need the whole wallet
1702 2011-06-22 12:40:40 <sipa> wallet should just be some pluggable module
1703 2011-06-22 12:40:57 <jrmithdobbs> maybe i'm more saying the wallet needs to be split up so that txn storage is seperated (logically and physically) from priv key storage
1704 2011-06-22 12:41:02 <jrmithdobbs> (this is all long term, obviously)
1705 2011-06-22 12:41:32 <phantomcircuit> the real insanity is that ecdsa keys are just bigendian large numbers
1706 2011-06-22 12:41:48 <sipa> private keys are
1707 2011-06-22 12:41:58 <phantomcircuit> which is all you really need
1708 2011-06-22 12:42:32 <prof7bit> if the symlink method is not advisable (and not even possible to backup the wallet without the logs) because of the bdb problem then why is it recommended all over the place? why are there no warnings?
1709 2011-06-22 12:43:02 <sipa> prof7bit: to backup a wallet, use the backupwallet rpc call
1710 2011-06-22 12:43:11 <sipa> that is safe and forces clean flushing
1711 2011-06-22 12:43:13 <prof7bit> and do these logs contain parts of the wallet content (keys for example)?
1712 2011-06-22 12:43:23 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1713 2011-06-22 12:43:32 <sipa> i believe so
1714 2011-06-22 12:43:51 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1715 2011-06-22 12:44:14 ChuckSchumer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1716 2011-06-22 12:45:04 <prof7bit> if i shutdown unclean, can the wallet be corrupted and unusable without the logs?
1717 2011-06-22 12:45:50 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: yes the logs contain all the privkey data
1718 2011-06-22 12:46:08 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1719 2011-06-22 12:46:10 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: and it's recomended all over the place because there's an assload of armchair security "experts" involved in the bitcoin "community."
1720 2011-06-22 12:46:36 <sipa> i wouldn't recommend it, it's just the only usable workaround now
1721 2011-06-22 12:46:38 Shuro has joined
1722 2011-06-22 12:46:48 <prof7bit> and all the logs for wallet and other not wallet related things are in one file?
1723 2011-06-22 12:46:50 <jrmithdobbs> that like to speak out of their ass and usually don't even realise they're doing it
1724 2011-06-22 12:47:06 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: no, look into how bdb stores txn logs
1725 2011-06-22 12:47:55 red_dawn_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1726 2011-06-22 12:48:01 red_dawn_ has joined
1727 2011-06-22 12:48:10 <Shuro> is there configurable that accounts-balance  cannot go below 0?
1728 2011-06-22 12:48:22 kW_ has joined
1729 2011-06-22 12:48:58 red_dawn_ has left ()
1730 2011-06-22 12:48:58 <jaromil> BlueMattBot: what are you referring to?
1731 2011-06-22 12:48:59 <BlueMattBot> jaromil did you mean me? Unknown command 'what'
1732 2011-06-22 12:48:59 <BlueMattBot> Use 'BlueMattBot: help' to get help!
1733 2011-06-22 12:49:01 hamush has joined
1734 2011-06-22 12:49:07 <jaromil> BlueMatt: what are you referring to?
1735 2011-06-22 12:49:18 <Shuro> BlueMattBot: help
1736 2011-06-22 12:49:18 <BlueMattBot> Available commands:
1737 2011-06-22 12:49:19 <BlueMattBot> abort <job> - specify which job to abort
1738 2011-06-22 12:49:20 <BlueMattBot> alias [<alias> [<command>]] - defines a new alias, deletes one or lists all existing aliases
1739 2011-06-22 12:49:20 <BlueMattBot> botsnack [<snack>] - om nom nom
1740 2011-06-22 12:49:20 <BlueMattBot> build <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
1741 2011-06-22 12:49:21 <BlueMattBot> cb - list jobs which are currently in progress
1742 2011-06-22 12:49:22 <BlueMattBot> comment <job> <build-#> <comment> - adds a description to a build
1743 2011-06-22 12:49:22 <BlueMattBot> currentlyBuilding - list jobs which are currently in progress
1744 2011-06-22 12:49:22 <BlueMattBot> h [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1745 2011-06-22 12:49:23 <BlueMattBot> health [<job>|-v <view>] - show the health of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1746 2011-06-22 12:49:23 <BlueMattBot> jobs [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1747 2011-06-22 12:49:24 <BlueMattBot> q - show the state of the build queue
1748 2011-06-22 12:49:25 <BlueMattBot> queue - show the state of the build queue
1749 2011-06-22 12:49:25 <BlueMattBot> s [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1750 2011-06-22 12:49:26 <BlueMattBot> schedule <job> [now|<delay>[s|m|h]] [<parameterkey>=<value>]* - schedule a job build, with standard, custom or no quiet period
1751 2011-06-22 12:49:26 <BlueMattBot> status [<job>|-v <view>] - show the status of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1752 2011-06-22 12:49:26 <BlueMattBot> testresult [<job>|-v <view>] - show the test results of a specific job, jobs in a view or all jobs
1753 2011-06-22 12:49:27 <BlueMattBot> userstat <username> - prints information about a Hudson user
1754 2011-06-22 12:49:36 <sipa> jaromil: autotools needs rebasing to current master
1755 2011-06-22 12:49:38 <jaromil> !botsnack
1756 2011-06-22 12:49:45 <sipa> jaromil: actually it was quite easy, i just did
1757 2011-06-22 12:49:54 <jaromil> sipa: yes indeed it should conflict at all
1758 2011-06-22 12:50:12 <sipa> there were some added source files, and extra includes
1759 2011-06-22 12:50:14 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/autotools3
1760 2011-06-22 12:50:15 <jaromil> so far the actual code was never touched and the most problematic move was already merged: code reorganization in directories
1761 2011-06-22 12:50:32 ghtdak has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1762 2011-06-22 12:50:32 <jaromil> ok, those go in src/Makefile.am, you know
1763 2011-06-22 12:50:41 <sipa> i found that out myself :)
1764 2011-06-22 12:50:49 <Shuro> If i read it correctly, account-balance can go below zero and wallet-balance cannot go below zero, right?
1765 2011-06-22 12:50:54 <sipa> Shuro: exactly
1766 2011-06-22 12:51:04 <sipa> Shuro: account balances are just virtual accounting tools
1767 2011-06-22 12:51:16 <sipa> Shuro: the wallet balance is the sum of the credits of all unspent coins in your wallet
1768 2011-06-22 12:51:42 <sipa> jaromil: feel free to pull my rebase into your pullreq or redo it yourself, if you like
1769 2011-06-22 12:51:55 ghtdak has joined
1770 2011-06-22 12:52:06 <Shuro> okay, but is there a possibility to limit that? so that accounts cannot have a balance below zero?
1771 2011-06-22 12:52:33 <sipa> there used to be such a rule, but it wasn't enforced everywhere
1772 2011-06-22 12:52:42 <sipa> so it was removed from consistency
1773 2011-06-22 12:52:45 <sipa> *for
1774 2011-06-22 12:53:24 <prof7bit> ui.cpp:1591: Fehler: »class boost::filesystem3::path« hat kein Element namens »native_file_string«
1775 2011-06-22 12:53:25 <prof7bit> make: *** [obj/ui.o] Fehler 1
1776 2011-06-22 12:53:26 <prof7bit> damn
1777 2011-06-22 12:54:08 <prof7bit> i have the very latest release of boost
1778 2011-06-22 12:54:20 <jaromil> ok. sipa and what do you think about that last commit? it does change some source files
1779 2011-06-22 12:54:45 <prof7bit> maybe a complete rewrite of the client from scratch (and without all this bloat) would make sense
1780 2011-06-22 12:54:46 DiSTANT187 has joined
1781 2011-06-22 12:54:57 <Shuro> so if there are multiple accounts in a wallet (in example for multiple persons), e.g. account a:10 BTC, Account b: 20 BTC and Account c: 30 BTC.  Could a transfer 60 BTC to an external wallet?
1782 2011-06-22 12:55:02 <sipa> prof7bit: it's not really bloat - just a mess
1783 2011-06-22 12:55:11 AlfonZ100 has joined
1784 2011-06-22 12:55:21 <sipa> jaromil: it looks safe to me, but needs testing before merging
1785 2011-06-22 12:55:58 <sipa> jaromil: so i'd say add it to your pull req as a separate commit?
1786 2011-06-22 12:56:22 <jaromil> ok then i'll do this too
1787 2011-06-22 12:57:05 <prof7bit> why does boost::filesystem3::path ot have an elemant named "native_file_string"? its the current stable release of boost
1788 2011-06-22 12:58:18 <sipa> jaromil: if you have a branch which is fully in sync with git master, contains autotools, and all known build improvements for various systems, i'd send a mail to the dev list and ask for confirmation that it works
1789 2011-06-22 12:58:18 weinerk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1790 2011-06-22 12:59:02 mologie has joined
1791 2011-06-22 12:59:18 <jaromil> coming up
1792 2011-06-22 12:59:25 purrr has joined
1793 2011-06-22 12:59:31 <sipa> thanks, i really hope we can get autotools merged soon a move forward
1794 2011-06-22 12:59:35 <sipa> +and
1795 2011-06-22 13:00:11 TheAncientGoat has joined
1796 2011-06-22 13:00:23 <sipa> especially for bitcoin-qt
1797 2011-06-22 13:01:10 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1798 2011-06-22 13:02:08 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1799 2011-06-22 13:02:48 underscor has joined
1800 2011-06-22 13:02:57 <jrmithdobbs> man, i forget how annoying it is to write makefiles that aren't retarded
1801 2011-06-22 13:02:58 <prof7bit> jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: no, look into how bdb stores txn logs  <-- how does it store them? where is the log file for the wallet, i can't see anything obvious in the data directory and i am not going to read the source code of bdb now just to see how it names the files
1802 2011-06-22 13:03:00 lbatalha has joined
1803 2011-06-22 13:03:13 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: "look into" does not mean "ask me"
1804 2011-06-22 13:03:14 <Shuro> Mh, so multiple user per wallet (without trust) is not possible?
1805 2011-06-22 13:03:25 scott` has joined
1806 2011-06-22 13:03:35 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/berkeleydb/overview/index.html
1807 2011-06-22 13:03:45 <prof7bit> i see one file db.log
1808 2011-06-22 13:04:40 weinerk has joined
1809 2011-06-22 13:04:45 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: hint: look in the database subdir
1810 2011-06-22 13:04:55 <jrmithdobbs> at least on the version of bdb *I'm using*
1811 2011-06-22 13:05:10 sgornick has joined
1812 2011-06-22 13:05:13 <jrmithdobbs> defaults of how it stores things change depending on how it's built
1813 2011-06-22 13:05:17 purrr has left ()
1814 2011-06-22 13:05:21 <jrmithdobbs> and which version
1815 2011-06-22 13:05:22 <prof7bit> there are two files with meaningless names (numbers) at the moment
1816 2011-06-22 13:05:50 <sipa> those are the logfiles
1817 2011-06-22 13:06:01 <sipa> and they're shared for all databases
1818 2011-06-22 13:06:04 <sipa> (afaik)
1819 2011-06-22 13:06:11 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1820 2011-06-22 13:06:21 Superbest has joined
1821 2011-06-22 13:06:29 freakazoid has joined
1822 2011-06-22 13:06:32 <sipa> which means: addresses, wallet, block index
1823 2011-06-22 13:06:52 datguy has quit (Quit: datguy)
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1826 2011-06-22 13:08:45 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1827 2011-06-22 13:08:59 <yorick> why are all the json rpc calls linked in and not static?
1828 2011-06-22 13:09:22 <sipa> yes, the source is a mess, we know
1829 2011-06-22 13:09:39 plutonic has quit (Quit: plutonic)
1830 2011-06-22 13:10:16 <yorick> that's a "no reason"?
1831 2011-06-22 13:10:27 <prof7bit> bitcoin really needs a usable client application ASAP. I can already see it failing only because of this.
1832 2011-06-22 13:10:56 <jrmithdobbs> really? right now? that's what you see causing bitcoin to fail?
1833 2011-06-22 13:11:07 <sipa> yorick: yes
1834 2011-06-22 13:11:09 <jrmithdobbs> you need to pay attention to what's been going on.
1835 2011-06-22 13:11:09 <jrmithdobbs> ha
1836 2011-06-22 13:11:18 <prof7bit> yes. without a client, how ae people supposed to USE it?
1837 2011-06-22 13:11:22 <sipa> i think bitcoin's biggest problem right now is media attention
1838 2011-06-22 13:11:36 <sipa> causing a massive growth before it was ready
1839 2011-06-22 13:11:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i think it's biggest problem is amateur hour in the services (exchange/etc) markets
1840 2011-06-22 13:11:51 <Shuro> okay, i've done a transaction with txfee , where did the txfee goes?
1841 2011-06-22 13:11:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: that's part of "not ready", yes
1842 2011-06-22 13:12:21 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i wasn't talking about the software specifically
1843 2011-06-22 13:12:25 <jrmithdobbs> hell, the pools aren't even run by people that know what they're doing
1844 2011-06-22 13:12:27 <sipa> Shuro: to the miner that puts your tx in a block
1845 2011-06-22 13:13:02 <jrmithdobbs> multi-minute to multi-hour downtimes constantly, etc
1846 2011-06-22 13:13:04 underscor has joined
1847 2011-06-22 13:13:24 <jrmithdobbs> i'm hoping this mtgox fiasco is going to get people to wake up
1848 2011-06-22 13:13:26 <jrmithdobbs> :(
1849 2011-06-22 13:13:46 <sipa> i mainly hope it causes other exchanges to spring up and be succesful
1850 2011-06-22 13:13:48 <yorick> why is the rpc server even threaded? it has asio
1851 2011-06-22 13:13:56 <Shuro> so there are lost? whats the advantage of the txfee?
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1853 2011-06-22 13:14:04 <sipa> Shuro: they're not lost
1854 2011-06-22 13:14:18 <sipa> Shuro: you support the infrastructure by doing so
1855 2011-06-22 13:14:26 <sipa> and you give incentive to miners to accept your tx
1856 2011-06-22 13:14:27 <Shuro> okay, not lost at all, but lost for me
1857 2011-06-22 13:14:45 <sipa> of course, that's a point of a fee: you pay it in return for some service
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1859 2011-06-22 13:15:15 <Shuro> who gets this fee? can i get fee too if someone set the txfee?
1860 2011-06-22 13:15:32 <yorick> Shuro: the one finding the block
1861 2011-06-22 13:15:59 <Shuro> oh okay
1862 2011-06-22 13:16:11 <luke-jr> Shuro: if you invest in a cluster of Radeons that the fees will never pay for
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1867 2011-06-22 13:17:57 <Shuro> mh how did i prevent an account to get below zero?
1868 2011-06-22 13:18:16 <jrmithdobbs> you can't
1869 2011-06-22 13:18:30 <jrmithdobbs> except manually using sendfrom address on every send and managing it yourself
1870 2011-06-22 13:18:44 <jrmithdobbs> via rpc
1871 2011-06-22 13:19:07 <jrmithdobbs> Shuro: the coinselection is automagical for all other types of sends
1872 2011-06-22 13:19:43 <Shuro> Okay, so i cannot give users an account in my wallet, because they could transfer bitcoins from other accounts (because of the wallet balance)
1873 2011-06-22 13:20:13 <yorick> the top section of main.cpp seems like it could use some const
1874 2011-06-22 13:21:39 <Shuro> :-( i ask because i try the bitcoin-implemention in php for a bitcoin market
1875 2011-06-22 13:21:55 <sipa> Shuro: you'll need to do user management yourself
1876 2011-06-22 13:22:06 <sipa> the wallet can help you keep track of each user
1877 2011-06-22 13:23:09 <Shuro> are there some concepts of that?
1878 2011-06-22 13:23:53 jsnyder has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1879 2011-06-22 13:24:24 <sipa> yorick: feel free to submit a patch
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1884 2011-06-22 13:26:37 <prof7bit> they seemed to have dropped the pefix "native_" in recent versions of boost. Why are you using bleeding edge libs for wx and old deprecated versions of boost?
1885 2011-06-22 13:29:19 AnatolV_ has joined
1886 2011-06-22 13:30:46 <prof7bit> without it wont compile either :-(
1887 2011-06-22 13:31:20 AnatolV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1889 2011-06-22 13:32:35 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, lol
1890 2011-06-22 13:33:01 <sipa> BlueMatt wrote a patch to backport bitcoin to wx2.8
1891 2011-06-22 13:33:15 unclemantis has joined
1892 2011-06-22 13:33:21 <sipa> but i expect we're going to switch to wumpus' qt UI soon anyway
1893 2011-06-22 13:34:47 <prof7bit> #define BOOST_FILESYSTEM_DEPRECATED  maybe this helps. in 10 minutes i will know
1894 2011-06-22 13:34:52 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1895 2011-06-22 13:35:35 jivvz has joined
1896 2011-06-22 13:41:27 genjix has joined
1897 2011-06-22 13:41:45 <genjix> who's in london?
1898 2011-06-22 13:42:42 <unclemantis> People
1899 2011-06-22 13:42:47 <unclemantis> next question
1900 2011-06-22 13:42:55 <prof7bit> please not qt! not yet another load of bloat! they break compatibility with every minor 4.x.x version number and I am forced to install a diffferent 400 MB qt version for every tiny qt app to compile.
1901 2011-06-22 13:43:03 <davex__> do the pools still process free transactions?
1902 2011-06-22 13:43:03 <jaromil> sipa: have a look at the pull req
1903 2011-06-22 13:43:15 <jaromil> i've rebased, added the last commit to review and tested
1904 2011-06-22 13:43:32 <davex__> or is pretty much everyone requiring a fee now?
1905 2011-06-22 13:43:34 <prof7bit> wx is perfectly ok
1906 2011-06-22 13:44:21 <sipa> davex__: most use only slightly patched bitcoind's, so they would accept most free transactions
1907 2011-06-22 13:44:34 <sipa> afaik
1908 2011-06-22 13:44:43 <Shuro> ah, a account cannot go below 0 if it tries to send BTC to an other wallet! that what i wanted :-)
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1910 2011-06-22 13:45:13 <prof7bit> maybe i should write my own client
1911 2011-06-22 13:45:19 <prof7bit> from scratch
1912 2011-06-22 13:45:24 <DiSTANT187> how hot is too hot for a radeon 6970?
1913 2011-06-22 13:45:38 <davex__> yep, looks like it got through.
1914 2011-06-22 13:45:50 kjakman has joined
1915 2011-06-22 13:45:51 <sipa> jaromil: hmm, why is my last patch to git head listed there?
1916 2011-06-22 13:45:52 <kjakman> ;;bc,stats
1917 2011-06-22 13:45:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 132569 | Current Difficulty: 877226.66666667 | Next Difficulty At Block: 133055 | Next Difficulty In: 486 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 1 hour, 57 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1332196.22640777
1918 2011-06-22 13:46:15 <ius> How convient! Part #21123 https://dev.metasploit.com/redmine/projects/framework/repository/revisions/12993/entry/modules/post/windows/gather/bitcoin_jacker.rb
1919 2011-06-22 13:46:16 <unclemantis> DiSTANT187 when you start seeing magic smoke and smelling something not quite right. That is too hot
1920 2011-06-22 13:46:26 <DiSTANT187> haha
1921 2011-06-22 13:46:35 <sipa> jaromil: ah, maybe because fbf957b wasn't rebased? (i'm still no git master...)
1922 2011-06-22 13:46:35 <DiSTANT187> right now it is around 93C
1923 2011-06-22 13:46:38 <ius> Metasploit supports stealing bitcoin wallets.
1924 2011-06-22 13:46:47 <mtrlt> i'd try to get it under 80C
1925 2011-06-22 13:46:51 <prof7bit> ... isf bitcoin can manage to survive without a usable client until my client would be ready
1926 2011-06-22 13:47:13 <mtrlt> prof7bit: i've thought about writing my own client too but it's a big project :p
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1928 2011-06-22 13:48:33 <yorick> prof7bit: what are you writing?
1929 2011-06-22 13:48:43 <yorick> prof7bit: what kind of thing?
1930 2011-06-22 13:48:49 <yorick> *client
1931 2011-06-22 13:48:54 <prof7bit> maybe i should have a look into the sources of the unfinished java client and then maybe port it to Lazarus/FPC to put it onto a solid, modern platform.
1932 2011-06-22 13:49:16 <yorick> eww
1933 2011-06-22 13:49:17 <yorick> delphi
1934 2011-06-22 13:49:22 <prof7bit> no
1935 2011-06-22 13:49:24 <prof7bit> lazarus
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1937 2011-06-22 13:49:31 <yorick> that's almost delphi
1938 2011-06-22 13:49:32 <prof7bit> not delphi
1939 2011-06-22 13:49:38 <x6763> if you have the time and stay focused on it, you can probably write a client from scratch in a month
1940 2011-06-22 13:49:40 <prof7bit> dephi is deprecated
1941 2011-06-22 13:49:43 <x6763> depending on what language you're using
1942 2011-06-22 13:49:48 <prof7bit> lazarus is the future
1943 2011-06-22 13:49:52 <x6763> and how familiar you are with the technical details of how bitcoin works
1944 2011-06-22 13:49:54 <yorick> prof7bit: call it pascal if you will
1945 2011-06-22 13:50:05 <sipa> jaromil: merging this would cause my commit to be listed twice it seems
1946 2011-06-22 13:50:44 <jaromil> ack, fixing
1947 2011-06-22 13:51:00 <yorick> 0.2 BTC for the first node.js client :P
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1950 2011-06-22 13:51:42 <unclemantis> little off topic: is there an alternative to Dwolla?
1951 2011-06-22 13:51:51 <unclemantis> as in days faster?
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1953 2011-06-22 13:52:19 <jaromil> sipa: done, should be fixed now
1954 2011-06-22 13:52:30 <yorick> unclemantis: bank transfer?
1955 2011-06-22 13:52:50 <jaromil> let me know about the decision on that last commit, then i will rebase it or remove it
1956 2011-06-22 13:53:27 <unclemantis> yorick I want to get from my bank to the bitcoin trading market faster than the current method of Bank, Dwolla, MX
1957 2011-06-22 13:53:31 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1959 2011-06-22 13:54:02 bernd_ is now known as prof7bit
1960 2011-06-22 13:54:11 <sipa> jaromil: which systems have you tried building this on?
1961 2011-06-22 13:54:42 <jaromil> just debian so far - since last merge. then last month also mingw and osx
1962 2011-06-22 13:54:58 <sipa> mingw crosscompile or native?
1963 2011-06-22 13:55:03 <jaromil> cross
1964 2011-06-22 13:55:06 <sipa> ok
1965 2011-06-22 13:55:06 <prof7bit> but I also might just take the java sources and make an UI for it that satisfies my idea of a usable UI and how a piece of software should interact with the user
1966 2011-06-22 13:55:28 <unclemantis> if i had known it was going to take this freaking long I would have gladly spent the $10 for a wire transfer DIRECTLY to the MX. But then again they say 1 to 3 business days too and Dwolla is 24 hours. So either way I would just be gaining a day
1967 2011-06-22 13:56:14 <sipa> jaromil: i'll mail to dev list, ok?
1968 2011-06-22 13:56:43 <jaromil> ok! u can put me in cc:
1969 2011-06-22 13:56:54 <jaromil> else give me a summary
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1971 2011-06-22 13:57:15 <sipa> you're not on the list?
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1975 2011-06-22 13:57:36 <jaromil> i'll be in/out internet over the w/e but can react in a week span
1976 2011-06-22 13:57:41 <prof7bit> wow, it compiled without errors!
1977 2011-06-22 13:57:48 <jaromil> i'm not aware of any mailinglist. i don't use web forums
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1981 2011-06-22 13:58:04 <prof7bit> #define BOOST_FILESYSTEM_DEPRECATED  has helped with current version of boost
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1985 2011-06-22 13:58:51 <prof7bit> maybe somebody put this into the master branch before it is forgotten again
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1990 2011-06-22 13:59:38 <prof7bit> and the client is running :-)
1991 2011-06-22 13:59:38 <sipa> jaromil: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development
1992 2011-06-22 13:59:47 <sipa> prof7bit: good to know
1993 2011-06-22 14:00:13 <prof7bit> connecting... fetching blocks... seems ok :-)
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2010 2011-06-22 14:02:20 <jaromil> sipa: ack
2011 2011-06-22 14:03:31 zapnap has joined
2012 2011-06-22 14:03:41 <prof7bit> ok. if the next one asks how to compile it on ubuntu hardy: it can be done. libdb4.6++-dev from the hardy repositories is enough (not 4.7), miniupnpc not the latest unstable but the stable 1.5, make && checkinstall, boost latest release needs this define. wx 2.9 ./configure && make && checkinstall
2013 2011-06-22 14:03:41 <jaromil> sipa: dunno how to subscribe it, however will keep an eye
2014 2011-06-22 14:04:13 <prof7bit> old gcc from hardy also seems enough
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2017 2011-06-22 14:06:26 <sipa> prof7bit: note that bdb is not binary compatible between versions
2018 2011-06-22 14:06:36 <sipa> at least the log files aren'
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2021 2011-06-22 14:07:49 <prof7bit> oh... then lets se what happens if i start this with a copy of my windows (wine) client data files
2022 2011-06-22 14:08:25 <sipa> i've heard reports that bitcoin doesn't work under wine
2023 2011-06-22 14:10:59 <prof7bit> it works. only visual glitches, the button bar has transparent background, but it works.
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2025 2011-06-22 14:11:22 <prof7bit> i have latest wine here compiled from source
2026 2011-06-22 14:11:36 <prof7bit> latest == a few months ago
2027 2011-06-22 14:12:33 <prof7bit> i have a lot of stuff updated manually from source here because hardy repos are old, so it is not a "pure" hardy anymore
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2029 2011-06-22 14:14:12 <ersi> latest 'a few months ago' :D
2030 2011-06-22 14:15:38 <prof7bit> ok, my wallet seems to work with 4.7
2031 2011-06-22 14:16:14 <prof7bit> but I had to delete all the other logs and dat files or it would throw exception
2032 2011-06-22 14:16:15 Gekz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2033 2011-06-22 14:16:15 <prof7bit> s
2034 2011-06-22 14:16:21 Teslah has joined
2035 2011-06-22 14:16:30 <prof7bit> what version of libdb is the windows client built with?
2036 2011-06-22 14:17:18 dvide has quit ()
2037 2011-06-22 14:17:23 <sipa> 4.7
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2039 2011-06-22 14:19:00 <prof7bit> <ersi> latest 'a few months ago' :D  <-- compared to the version in the ubuntu hady epo it is bleeding edge
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2048 2011-06-22 14:22:23 <prof7bit> <prof7bit> ok, my wallet seems to work with 4.7  <-- not 4.7. I wanted to say 4.6, i have compiled it with 4.6 and wallet dat seems to be ok but not the block chain and the other stuff
2049 2011-06-22 14:23:23 <prof7bit> and i don't have a systray icon anymore
2050 2011-06-22 14:23:40 skeledrew1 has joined
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2053 2011-06-22 14:25:55 <prof7bit> this took me 3 days now to get it running...
2054 2011-06-22 14:25:59 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: huh? debian stable has 4.6-4.8 in the repo
2055 2011-06-22 14:26:16 <prof7bit> ubuntu hardy (2008)
2056 2011-06-22 14:26:38 <jrmithdobbs> oh, i don't keep up on ubuntu release names
2057 2011-06-22 14:26:39 <prof7bit> my old T40 laptop with the boken DVD drive
2058 2011-06-22 14:26:54 <jrmithdobbs> you should update that shit
2059 2011-06-22 14:26:55 Stellar has joined
2060 2011-06-22 14:27:31 <jrmithdobbs> or is ubuntu so broken that it's killed the one major advantage of debian? (safe in-place upgrades)
2061 2011-06-22 14:27:37 <jrmithdobbs> wouldn't surprise me
2062 2011-06-22 14:27:41 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2063 2011-06-22 14:27:53 <prof7bit> this would probably break a lot of things and I would not have kde3.5 anymore, it would eithe force the KDE4 bloat crap onto me or force me to switch my DE
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2065 2011-06-22 14:28:28 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: just make goddamned sure you have the fixed openssl prng
2066 2011-06-22 14:29:08 <prof7bit> this one was fixed in hardy when it happened. (a few? years ago)
2067 2011-06-22 14:29:54 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: because i know for a fact that the full range of possible bitcoin addresses has been bruteforced by someone (me, at the least) ;p
2068 2011-06-22 14:30:18 purrr has joined
2069 2011-06-22 14:31:16 <purrr> Hi again, today it happened again on britcoin, on bitcoincharts it shows the high as 270 but no orders have been filled at 50, doesn't make sense, can anyone explain why this at all ? :) Seems like a waste of time if nothing gets filled or am I the only one who finds this strange ? 3 times now..
2070 2011-06-22 14:31:19 <prof7bit> you are referring to the openssl debacle with the predictable prng 2008 or 2009 (can't remenber the date exactly)?
2071 2011-06-22 14:31:21 ionspin has joined
2072 2011-06-22 14:32:10 <prof7bit> where the debian folks boke it by patching the oiginal?
2073 2011-06-22 14:32:13 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: ya that one
2074 2011-06-22 14:32:14 <prof7bit> this one?
2075 2011-06-22 14:32:32 <jrmithdobbs> just saying make sure you have that patched if you're using bitcoin off that box
2076 2011-06-22 14:32:59 <prof7bit> this one is patched. this was when hardy still was supported
2077 2011-06-22 14:33:08 weinerk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2078 2011-06-22 14:33:16 <jrmithdobbs> k, wasn't sure. just fair warning ;P
2079 2011-06-22 14:33:21 <jtaylor> running hardy and bitcoin, I hope not with much money in the wallet oO
2080 2011-06-22 14:33:28 <prof7bit> ok, thanks ;-)
2081 2011-06-22 14:33:47 <prof7bit> lol
2082 2011-06-22 14:34:13 <prof7bit> they are still updating stuff, so it still seems i get relevant fixes and patches
2083 2011-06-22 14:34:27 <jtaylor> oh you're using the server variant?
2084 2011-06-22 14:34:29 <prof7bit> everytime i apt-get upgrade
2085 2011-06-22 14:34:30 <jrmithdobbs> ok good
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2089 2011-06-22 14:35:15 <prof7bit> desktop kubuntu. and no: my wallet is almost empty.
2090 2011-06-22 14:35:17 ndeee has joined
2091 2011-06-22 14:35:34 purrr has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2092 2011-06-22 14:35:36 <jtaylor> desktop is unsupported, you only get the updates for the server packages
2093 2011-06-22 14:36:04 <jrmithdobbs> in that case
2094 2011-06-22 14:36:07 <jrmithdobbs> do not run bitcoin off that box
2095 2011-06-22 14:36:08 <jrmithdobbs> ever
2096 2011-06-22 14:36:17 echelon has joined
2097 2011-06-22 14:36:24 <jtaylor> that would be my recommondation too
2098 2011-06-22 14:36:27 <jtaylor> unless you don't care
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2111 2011-06-22 14:39:45 <prof7bit> i doubt that somebody is interested in my 0.001 coins
2112 2011-06-22 14:39:58 <jrmithdobbs> meh, you have been warned
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2118 2011-06-22 14:42:00 <Shuro> where did i post bugs of the bitcoin-client?
2119 2011-06-22 14:42:01 <prof7bit> i don't see any possible attack vector, my browser is up to date, the applications i use are all up to date (with the only exception of xchat now at the moment but I might change this also)
2120 2011-06-22 14:42:05 Nesetalis has joined
2121 2011-06-22 14:42:18 <sipa> Shuro: github
2122 2011-06-22 14:42:24 <sipa> under issues
2123 2011-06-22 14:42:39 <Shuro> Thanks
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2126 2011-06-22 14:43:45 <prof7bit> i simply cannot update my OS at the moment, its nearly impossible
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2128 2011-06-22 14:43:54 <kinlo> when I have a transaction, how can I find in which block it is?
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2132 2011-06-22 14:44:20 <nanotube> kinlo: look at current block count. subtract number of confirmations.
2133 2011-06-22 14:44:27 <Shuro> because if i make an api-call 'getaccountaddress ""' it gives me the address of account "b"
2134 2011-06-22 14:45:03 <kinlo> oh, right :)
2135 2011-06-22 14:45:24 <kinlo> nanotube: any idea how I can find the hash of a block?
2136 2011-06-22 14:45:41 cacheson has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2137 2011-06-22 14:45:56 <nanotube> well, blockexplorer.com
2138 2011-06-22 14:46:06 <kinlo> nanotube: programatorically that is :)
2139 2011-06-22 14:46:06 <nanotube> i don't think the client by default has blockdump functionality
2140 2011-06-22 14:46:16 <sipa> kinlo: from which context?
2141 2011-06-22 14:46:21 <nanotube> programmatically... get block, hash it :)
2142 2011-06-22 14:46:29 cacheson has joined
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2144 2011-06-22 14:47:10 somuchwin has joined
2145 2011-06-22 14:47:12 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
2146 2011-06-22 14:47:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 132578 | Current Difficulty: 877226.66666667 | Next Difficulty At Block: 133055 | Next Difficulty In: 477 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 1 hour, 1 minute, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1332462.61399001
2147 2011-06-22 14:47:24 <kinlo> I guess I will have to recompile with the blockdump patch then
2148 2011-06-22 14:47:55 jackmcbarn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2150 2011-06-22 14:48:44 Gunni has joined
2151 2011-06-22 14:48:49 <emock> so, another 'fishy' thing about this mtgox hack that has probably been discussed on the forums (which are just too bloated to follow in detail)…  how did the 'hacker' know who was doing the audit and what computer they were using to access/store the database?
2152 2011-06-22 14:49:11 B0g4r7_ has joined
2153 2011-06-22 14:49:45 <prof7bit> maybe the person doing the audit WAS the attacker
2154 2011-06-22 14:49:49 glassresistor has joined
2155 2011-06-22 14:49:50 <somuchwin> what interests me is how the hacker was able to also block the possibility of making buy orders during the sellout
2156 2011-06-22 14:49:51 <Pilate> pretty sure somebody posted details on F-D showing the site had a ton of sql injections, nothing to do with an 'auditor'
2157 2011-06-22 14:50:06 <copumpkin> somuchwin: I'd guess that was a system design issue
2158 2011-06-22 14:50:10 <copumpkin> somuchwin: not a hack thing
2159 2011-06-22 14:50:20 <jrmithdobbs> Pilate: <3
2160 2011-06-22 14:50:40 <Zoiah> somuchwin: the exchange blocks new orders until the current ones are executed.
2161 2011-06-22 14:50:52 <Zoiah> somuchwin: because of the size of the order, it took a long time before all orders were executed.
2162 2011-06-22 14:50:53 <emock> sure, I suspect the attack vector might have been sql but they insist it wasn't
2163 2011-06-22 14:51:01 <somuchwin> so it was just the system overload of transactions?
2164 2011-06-22 14:51:06 <Zoiah> somuchwin: correct.
2165 2011-06-22 14:51:11 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: if it was an auditor, as he claims, it flies in the face of reason and he's merely guilty of criminal negligence (for giving the auditor auth data in the first place) instead of incompetence
2166 2011-06-22 14:51:12 k^^ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2167 2011-06-22 14:51:15 <Pilate> emock: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2011/Jun/417
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2170 2011-06-22 14:51:40 <emock> if it indeed was sql injection then the hacker probably would have also gotten information on balances...
2171 2011-06-22 14:51:57 <somuchwin> at least the withdrawal was not lagged at all then so when I saw that happening I quickly transfered my btc to my wallet
2172 2011-06-22 14:52:09 <emock> instead of just getting 'lucky' to find a high-value account (or accounts) with
2173 2011-06-22 14:52:43 <jrmithdobbs> emock: one of the known sqlis gave the ability to create funds in any account you had auth data for out of thin air
2174 2011-06-22 14:53:02 <somuchwin> I wonder if the owners of the hacked big money account(s) even know that it happened
2175 2011-06-22 14:53:04 <jrmithdobbs> no need to find a high-value account.
2176 2011-06-22 14:53:24 <upb> if they indeed used the mysqli php extension then aswell, then yes
2177 2011-06-22 14:53:26 <Pilate> oh shit, is that your post dobbs? :D
2178 2011-06-22 14:53:42 <somuchwin> I've read somewhere that the old accounts had unsalted passwords, so they were the easiest targets
2179 2011-06-22 14:53:43 <upb> if they used 'mysql' then you cant do an update by injecting into a select statement
2180 2011-06-22 14:53:44 <emock> ah, so it wasn't even some poor sap that got ripped off…  so there is no 'rich idiot'?
2181 2011-06-22 14:53:46 <jrmithdobbs> upb: and he wont respond in any way so who knows
2182 2011-06-22 14:54:27 <upb> :)
2183 2011-06-22 14:54:28 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2184 2011-06-22 14:54:33 <jrmithdobbs> upb: it is feasible though, and considering he appears to have written his own mysql connection pooling (seriously people STOP DOING THIS) from the errors thrown on the claim site yesterday ....
2185 2011-06-22 14:54:39 <emock> what's confusing to me is why MagicalTux would not just admit it was a sqli?
2186 2011-06-22 14:54:45 <upb> ahahah yeah i saw that
2187 2011-06-22 14:54:46 ezl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2188 2011-06-22 14:55:06 <emock> unless he just wants to avoid 'we told you so'
2189 2011-06-22 14:55:11 <emock> which is kinda petty
2190 2011-06-22 14:55:18 <upb> jrmithdobbs: it isnt pooling tho from what i gather, just an OO factory/singleton
2191 2011-06-22 14:55:27 <jrmithdobbs> emock: why would he commit libel in a public forum without consulting his lawyers in a country where libel is taken VERY seriously (re: kevin)
2192 2011-06-22 14:55:46 <upb> jrmithdobbs: since php objects dont persist between requests, so it would be pointless
2193 2011-06-22 14:55:52 <jrmithdobbs> emock: there's all sorts of unanswered questions.
2194 2011-06-22 14:56:03 k^^ has joined
2195 2011-06-22 14:56:44 <emock> libel?  did he respond to Kevin?
2196 2011-06-22 14:57:05 <jrmithdobbs> emock: he openly accused him of being the hacker or associated with said hacker
2197 2011-06-22 14:57:08 * emock only got halfway through that thread before getting a headache
2198 2011-06-22 14:57:17 <jrmithdobbs> emock: in a different thread
2199 2011-06-22 14:57:36 jackmcbarn has joined
2200 2011-06-22 14:58:11 <emock> strange.  I mean even I was trying to do what Kevin was able to do...
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2203 2011-06-22 14:58:35 <jrmithdobbs> emock: even stranger since he's admitted that he has no timestamp logs of orders that get fullfilled immediately.
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2205 2011-06-22 14:58:53 <jrmithdobbs> emock: so he was basing the whole claim off of login time speculation
2206 2011-06-22 14:59:11 <jrmithdobbs> it's retarded
2207 2011-06-22 14:59:15 <jrmithdobbs> the whole situation is
2208 2011-06-22 14:59:22 <upb> kevin was able to do what he did because there were two falls to 0.01
2209 2011-06-22 14:59:35 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2210 2011-06-22 14:59:37 <upb> he got his order in when the first sell was done
2211 2011-06-22 14:59:42 <sipa> i agree it's not strange at all that if it was possible to place some transactions, while many people are trying, someone will have gotten through
2212 2011-06-22 14:59:43 <upb> and it was executed with the second one
2213 2011-06-22 14:59:58 <upb> it can be seen from the order execution log
2214 2011-06-22 15:00:17 <emock> so someone still had that much coin in an account?
2215 2011-06-22 15:00:38 <emock> Or the first trade didn't complete wipe out the order book?
2216 2011-06-22 15:01:10 <upb> sec
2217 2011-06-22 15:01:29 tca` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2218 2011-06-22 15:01:38 <emock> second?  or 'one sec'?
2219 2011-06-22 15:01:54 underscor has joined
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2221 2011-06-22 15:03:06 <upb> http://88.80.13.24/executionlog.png
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2224 2011-06-22 15:03:18 <jrmithdobbs> stupid makefile question
2225 2011-06-22 15:04:00 <jrmithdobbs> say i have a $(UNAME) var that's set to `uname` ... how do i test that it does not equal "Darwin" ... ifneq ($(UNAME),"Darwin") .... is not working
2226 2011-06-22 15:04:25 <JFK911> test if it equals
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2228 2011-06-22 15:08:03 * emock has never been the victim of an sqli (because he's never made a site anyone cared about) but is it simple to determine if that happened?
2229 2011-06-22 15:08:52 <copumpkin> keep a query log and look for comments in your queries :P
2230 2011-06-22 15:09:33 <emock> well, there might not be a query log, right?
2231 2011-06-22 15:10:31 <x6763> emock: 20:20 < MagicalTux> for now the auditor is the most obvious path, however some people have been claiming there were SQL injections possible,  however no actual report have reached us yet
2232 2011-06-22 15:10:35 <copumpkin> then you'd probably try the simple tests that everyone uses to determine if you're vulnerable to sql injection attacks, or just look at your code for code paths that lead to sql queries, and look to see if they're sanitized (meh) and/or contain holes
2233 2011-06-22 15:10:39 <x6763> emock: 22:53 < MagicalTux> I seriously hope it's a sql injection, and not the auditor fuck up
2234 2011-06-22 15:10:52 <x6763> emock: that was from #mtgox
2235 2011-06-22 15:11:09 Clipse has joined
2236 2011-06-22 15:11:12 <emock> okay…  that makes more sense
2237 2011-06-22 15:11:16 phearful has joined
2238 2011-06-22 15:12:35 <Heston> what does he mean by the auditor?
2239 2011-06-22 15:12:43 <xelister> Heston: the Auditor.
2240 2011-06-22 15:13:07 <xelister> the story about auditor starts to get on my nerves
2241 2011-06-22 15:13:09 <x6763> Heston: they had someone doing a financial audit to prove that they weren't manipulating the market
2242 2011-06-22 15:13:24 <xelister> x6763: I would like to see any documents,
2243 2011-06-22 15:13:26 <xelister> .
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2254 2011-06-22 15:22:50 <gmaxwell> I see deepbit is running google ads again.
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2271 2011-06-22 15:33:19 <Calchan> prof7bit, if you "have a lot of stuff updated manually from source" you should use gentoo or similar, it would save you a lot of time and sweat
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2280 2011-06-22 15:38:07 <prof7bit> Calchan: i would happily update the entire OS if I could be sure that I have everything I need working again in less then 48 hours. With the mess that I have now and the broken DVD drive I would end up having no working system at all on a monday morning.
2281 2011-06-22 15:38:43 <prof7bit> so i update only what i need
2282 2011-06-22 15:38:52 <sipa> what do you need a DVD drive for? :)
2283 2011-06-22 15:39:10 <prof7bit> and additionally there is no replacement for KDE3.
2284 2011-06-22 15:39:30 <prof7bit> for booting it after entirely messing it all up.
2285 2011-06-22 15:40:01 <Calchan> prof7bit, if you can make a 10gig partition somewhere on your disk or another you can install gentoo in a chroot in the background from whatever you're currently running and without rebooting
2286 2011-06-22 15:40:02 <AlonzoTG> +1 on kde3
2287 2011-06-22 15:40:07 <sipa> netinstall from usb :)
2288 2011-06-22 15:40:26 <prof7bit> i have only 38 GB, 95% full
2289 2011-06-22 15:40:42 * Calchan install gentoo from ubuntu/fedore pretty often
2290 2011-06-22 15:40:53 <Calchan> s/fedore/fedora/
2291 2011-06-22 15:41:56 <prof7bit> maybe one day i will eventually update it when the pain of having to use such an old system gets too much
2292 2011-06-22 15:43:04 <dehuman> re: mtgox - magicaltux is a liar, nuff said
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2295 2011-06-22 15:43:15 <Calchan> hell you could install gentoo while your machine is mining on the GPU and it wouldn't break a sweat
2296 2011-06-22 15:43:39 <dehuman> why gentoo?
2297 2011-06-22 15:43:51 <prof7bit> have no GPU suitable either
2298 2011-06-22 15:43:54 <meelu> there is not limit on the ammount of recieving addresses i generate is there?
2299 2011-06-22 15:43:57 <Calchan> dehuman, because he says he compiles from sources al the time and that would save him time
2300 2011-06-22 15:43:58 <prof7bit> suitable GPU
2301 2011-06-22 15:44:12 <sipa> meelu: no
2302 2011-06-22 15:44:23 <meelu> because im thinking of generating it with bitcoind without asking for captcha when users try ordering
2303 2011-06-22 15:44:27 <meelu> would this cause a problem
2304 2011-06-22 15:44:30 <dehuman> meh
2305 2011-06-22 15:44:52 <prof7bit> and i already had gentoo in the past (around 2005) and since my CPU fan is broken i can only run it at 1000MHz maximum
2306 2011-06-22 15:45:29 <prof7bit> so gentoo is not an option
2307 2011-06-22 15:46:03 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2308 2011-06-22 15:46:41 Titeuf_87 has joined
2309 2011-06-22 15:46:46 <prof7bit> and I have only 500MB RAM. Maybe i will update to something like a recent xubuntu
2310 2011-06-22 15:47:05 nomit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2311 2011-06-22 15:47:20 <prof7bit> and say goodbye to KDE forever.
2312 2011-06-22 15:47:22 <Calchan> I just installed gentoo on a fully encrypted disk on an old P3 with 512megs of ram to dedicate it to running wxbitcoin and keep my wallets safe, and it works beautifully
2313 2011-06-22 15:47:29 * sipa runs xmonad
2314 2011-06-22 15:50:04 <prof7bit> i had gentoo for a few years, Its not practical for me. Sometimes I just want to install something becaue I need it *today* and not tomorrow.
2315 2011-06-22 15:51:01 <prof7bit> Now i compile only small stuff that i need to compile other small stuff, once in a while
2316 2011-06-22 15:51:29 <prof7bit> and big things like firefox or the like i try to install from binary packages
2317 2011-06-22 15:54:13 <prof7bit> and probably i would have updated the "ubuntu way of updating" already if they had not abandoned KDE without any replacement. (The other thing that has now the name KDE is not KDE anymore, KDE is history)
2318 2011-06-22 15:55:13 hamush has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2319 2011-06-22 15:55:17 <sipa> ubuntu abandoned kde? :o
2320 2011-06-22 15:55:26 <sipa> ah ok
2321 2011-06-22 15:56:00 <prof7bit> yes. they only have kde4 now and this is not KDE in the eye of a long time KDE user. It is something else, but it is not KDE.
2322 2011-06-22 15:56:13 <sipa> haven't used kde in a long time
2323 2011-06-22 15:56:18 <sipa> not sure if i've seen kde4 already
2324 2011-06-22 15:56:51 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2325 2011-06-22 15:57:37 <dehuman> prof7bit: maybe checkout freebsd
2326 2011-06-22 15:57:49 <dehuman> its been a couple years sicne i ran it but the freebsd ports tree > *
2327 2011-06-22 15:58:09 <dehuman> and the buildworld process was always awesome, and i wouldnt be surprised if they still have kde3 in ports
2328 2011-06-22 15:58:13 <wumpus> I love KDE4/kubuntu
2329 2011-06-22 15:58:16 <prof7bit> no, i need a few V4L2 camera drivers, i can only use linux
2330 2011-06-22 15:58:42 RevolutionMasta_ has left ()
2331 2011-06-22 15:59:03 <dehuman> http://www.freshports.org/x11/kde3/
2332 2011-06-22 15:59:11 <dehuman> commits to the kde3 port as recent as feb 2011
2333 2011-06-22 15:59:44 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
2334 2011-06-22 15:59:47 <prof7bit> someone should port kde3 to qt4 and maintain that fork from then on
2335 2011-06-22 16:00:31 <sipa> wumpus: how hard is it to integrate autotools with qtui?
2336 2011-06-22 16:01:20 <wumpus> sipa: not hard, there's some templates for porting qmake applications to autoconf
2337 2011-06-22 16:01:37 <prof7bit> is there any reason to use qt instead of wx for such a simple GUI?
2338 2011-06-22 16:01:57 <wumpus> because it will probably not stay this simple forever
2339 2011-06-22 16:02:18 <prof7bit> is there any reason to not use wx for a highly complex GUI?
2340 2011-06-22 16:02:47 <wumpus> why would you?
2341 2011-06-22 16:02:55 <wumpus> qt has a magnitudes larger mindshare
2342 2011-06-22 16:03:06 BTCTrader has joined
2343 2011-06-22 16:03:07 <prof7bit> why would you force the qt bloat upon the users without any reason?
2344 2011-06-22 16:03:21 <wumpus> qt bloat? wtf
2345 2011-06-22 16:03:31 <wumpus> gt is not more bloated than gtk
2346 2011-06-22 16:03:33 <prof7bit> when wx can do the ob ust fine
2347 2011-06-22 16:03:36 skeledrew has joined
2348 2011-06-22 16:03:39 <wumpus> and wx uses gtk
2349 2011-06-22 16:03:49 nefario has joined
2350 2011-06-22 16:03:50 TD has joined
2351 2011-06-22 16:03:59 <prof7bit> you dont use GTK on windows, wxMSW is native
2352 2011-06-22 16:04:24 <wumpus> and Wx itself is also pretty big
2353 2011-06-22 16:04:54 <wumpus> anyway, I don't really care about defending Qt, you're free to use whatever gui you want
2354 2011-06-22 16:04:57 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
2355 2011-06-22 16:04:59 <prof7bit> and on linux GTK also is the better choice, compatibility wise. they don'Ät change the API every other week like Qt.
2356 2011-06-22 16:05:51 <prof7bit> <wumpus> and Wx itself is also pretty big  <-- and qt is even bigger
2357 2011-06-22 16:05:57 <nefario> Anyone be able to help me out with a nginx reverse proxy issue?
2358 2011-06-22 16:06:03 <Heston> qt is a much cleaner abstraction
2359 2011-06-22 16:06:05 <wumpus> prof7bit: yes, it is.. also much more advanced
2360 2011-06-22 16:06:07 <nefario> revelent config file
2361 2011-06-22 16:06:09 <nefario> http://pastie.org/2106954
2362 2011-06-22 16:06:09 <wumpus> Heston: indeed
2363 2011-06-22 16:06:30 <nefario> Apache behind nginx, supposed to forward all requests onto apache
2364 2011-06-22 16:06:51 <nefario> but only handles  the index page, but not the image files etc.
2365 2011-06-22 16:06:54 <prof7bit> "advanced" is not needed, it has to make making a GUI simple and easy and highly portable.
2366 2011-06-22 16:06:55 <nefario> check it out
2367 2011-06-22 16:07:01 <nefario> https://glbse.com
2368 2011-06-22 16:07:02 <nefario> and
2369 2011-06-22 16:07:07 <wumpus> and the code has to be maintainable
2370 2011-06-22 16:07:11 <nefario> http://glbse.com:7777
2371 2011-06-22 16:07:25 <wumpus> my gui uses a clear model/view separation, whereas the Wx one does not
2372 2011-06-22 16:07:33 <prof7bit> for "advanced" special stuff you have special libraries and not one big fat do-it-all library
2373 2011-06-22 16:07:46 <wumpus> so you have a zillion dependencies? no, thank you
2374 2011-06-22 16:07:56 <wumpus> now you can just get the Qt SDK and get going
2375 2011-06-22 16:08:11 <prof7bit> model-view can be done with any toolkit
2376 2011-06-22 16:08:11 <Heston> and if you're using c++, you can use the qt designer
2377 2011-06-22 16:08:12 <wumpus> also
2378 2011-06-22 16:08:16 <wumpus> GTK is exactly the same
2379 2011-06-22 16:08:22 <wumpus> Heston: yes, I've used that for most forms
2380 2011-06-22 16:08:44 pyro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2381 2011-06-22 16:09:04 <wumpus> developing for Qt4 is like entering a new millenium :P
2382 2011-06-22 16:09:14 <prof7bit> zillion dependencies? with wx there is not a zillion dependencies.
2383 2011-06-22 16:10:23 <sipa> please
2384 2011-06-22 16:10:30 <sipa> use whatever you prefer
2385 2011-06-22 16:11:03 <Heston> if you want something without bloat, use opengl
2386 2011-06-22 16:11:15 <prof7bit> no
2387 2011-06-22 16:11:18 <wumpus> hehe, indeed, roll everything yourself for the specific purpose
2388 2011-06-22 16:11:26 <wumpus> the game developer's dream
2389 2011-06-22 16:12:02 <sipa> guess we need a curses interface for those who fear depending on xlib
2390 2011-06-22 16:12:03 misterp has joined
2391 2011-06-22 16:12:34 <wumpus> yep
2392 2011-06-22 16:13:20 <Calchan> wumpus, you are obviously talking about the second millenium, the one that ended in 2000, right?
2393 2011-06-22 16:13:54 <wumpus> Calchan: no the third one. it's like spaceships and flying cars! :P
2394 2011-06-22 16:14:13 <Calchan> wumpus, well that one is definitely not made out of Qt
2395 2011-06-22 16:14:43 <wumpus> lol
2396 2011-06-22 16:15:13 <Calchan> the third millenium is unfortunately made of java running on a cell phone
2397 2011-06-22 16:15:44 <wumpus> no no no :( don't ruin my perfectly innocent and utopion future-view :(
2398 2011-06-22 16:15:53 <luke-jr> Calchan: phones will be obsolete soon
2399 2011-06-22 16:16:11 <Calchan> luke-jr, what? I just got my first one!
2400 2011-06-22 16:16:12 misterp has quit (Client Quit)
2401 2011-06-22 16:16:26 <prof7bit> you can might like Qt because your Qt designer lets you arrange the buttons on a form with the mouse (are there any mpre advantages) but your users are suffering and need to download 200Mb runtime to get it running.
2402 2011-06-22 16:16:57 <wumpus> huh that's simply not true, the qt runtime isn't that big
2403 2011-06-22 16:17:05 <prof7bit> then its 160
2404 2011-06-22 16:17:12 <prof7bit> or something
2405 2011-06-22 16:17:19 <luke-jr> wx sucks. Qt wins.
2406 2011-06-22 16:17:29 <luke-jr> Qt is native everywhere.
2407 2011-06-22 16:17:31 <wumpus> you only need the -Core and -Gui modules
2408 2011-06-22 16:17:33 <prof7bit> but its bigger than any other runtime of any other toolkit
2409 2011-06-22 16:17:33 <luke-jr> wx is just ugly everywhere
2410 2011-06-22 16:17:35 <ersi> blah blah blah, you have different tastes! You both win an own Internet Award.
2411 2011-06-22 16:17:38 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2412 2011-06-22 16:17:47 <wumpus> not the OpenGL, SVG, scripting and so one ones
2413 2011-06-22 16:17:58 <luke-jr> ooh
2414 2011-06-22 16:17:59 <prof7bit> wx is native everywhere, qt is user drawn on any platform
2415 2011-06-22 16:18:00 <luke-jr> we do need scripting!
2416 2011-06-22 16:18:06 <luke-jr> prof7bit: false
2417 2011-06-22 16:18:08 <wumpus> well add it then :P
2418 2011-06-22 16:18:13 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2419 2011-06-22 16:18:15 <wumpus> you know the github url :)
2420 2011-06-22 16:18:21 <luke-jr> wumpus: Github is non-free
2421 2011-06-22 16:18:40 <Calchan> but it works
2422 2011-06-22 16:18:42 <prof7bit> qt might have themes that look like windows native but its user drawn
2423 2011-06-22 16:18:51 <luke-jr> Calchan: only if you agree to their ridiculous terms
2424 2011-06-22 16:18:52 <prof7bit> wx is native
2425 2011-06-22 16:19:00 <luke-jr> prof7bit: no, Qt is native
2426 2011-06-22 16:19:15 <prof7bit> since when? last time i checked it was not
2427 2011-06-22 16:19:19 <luke-jr> wx isn't native on the only sensible platform
2428 2011-06-22 16:19:22 <wumpus> luke-jr: hey we already have scripting in bitcoin itself!
2429 2011-06-22 16:19:25 <luke-jr> prof7bit: since almost forever
2430 2011-06-22 16:19:29 <prof7bit> no
2431 2011-06-22 16:19:31 <luke-jr> wumpus: not useful scripting
2432 2011-06-22 16:19:42 <prof7bit> what is the only sensible platform?
2433 2011-06-22 16:19:47 <luke-jr> prof7bit: KDE
2434 2011-06-22 16:19:55 <prof7bit> kde is dead!
2435 2011-06-22 16:20:02 <luke-jr> only when something else beats it
2436 2011-06-22 16:20:04 <Calchan> luke-jr, anyway I don't care, gentoo.org hosts my code
2437 2011-06-22 16:20:16 <emock> accept for Wx, it's not the library that makes things butt ugly…  it's the designer
2438 2011-06-22 16:20:22 <luke-jr> Calchan: dunno how you put up with the Gentoo high-ups
2439 2011-06-22 16:20:25 <prof7bit> they have let it die with version 3, there is no replacement, its dead.
2440 2011-06-22 16:20:28 <luke-jr> Calchan: I gave up on their politics years ago
2441 2011-06-22 16:20:46 <luke-jr> prof7bit: KDE 4 works fine, unlike any other platform
2442 2011-06-22 16:20:48 <Calchan> luke-jr, I don't have to put up with them, I'm the one who makes them walk in line
2443 2011-06-22 16:20:50 <emock> just wait, I'm making a butt ugly Cocoa UI…  you'll see
2444 2011-06-22 16:21:02 <UukGoblin> UIs are for pussies
2445 2011-06-22 16:21:04 <luke-jr> Calchan: well if you ever get Gentoo back in sane order, I'll reconsider :p
2446 2011-06-22 16:21:05 <UukGoblin> CLI ftw
2447 2011-06-22 16:21:05 lbatalha has quit (2!~kvirc@bl5-157-6.dsl.telepac.pt|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2448 2011-06-22 16:21:06 tobeabstract has joined
2449 2011-06-22 16:21:16 <prof7bit> kde4 should not be allowed to use the letters "KDE" in its name
2450 2011-06-22 16:21:23 <fiverawr> I hope newer bitcoin UI's just use RPC.
2451 2011-06-22 16:21:29 <luke-jr> fiverawr: impossible
2452 2011-06-22 16:21:31 <emock> I did cli 15 years ago…  moved on to better things
2453 2011-06-22 16:21:34 <fiverawr> luke-jr: Why?
2454 2011-06-22 16:21:43 <luke-jr> fiverawr: JSON-RPC is too poorly designed
2455 2011-06-22 16:21:44 <Calchan> luke-jr, watch the news in the coming hours you'll see the beginning of something
2456 2011-06-22 16:21:55 <emock> luke-jr: the iOS app used RPC
2457 2011-06-22 16:21:57 <luke-jr> Calchan: fwiw, we have a nice overlay in #bitcoin-gentoo
2458 2011-06-22 16:21:58 <emock> uses
2459 2011-06-22 16:22:07 <luke-jr> emock: it must suck
2460 2011-06-22 16:22:08 <fiverawr> luke-jr: It doesn't have to be JSON-RPC. But the UI should connect to the backend, even if it's on a remote host.
2461 2011-06-22 16:22:12 <Calchan> luke-jr, I saw that and I agree with it being nice
2462 2011-06-22 16:22:20 <emock> luke-jr: never compiled it…  just looked at code
2463 2011-06-22 16:22:24 <luke-jr> fiverawr: I agree, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
2464 2011-06-22 16:22:31 _nomit is now known as nomit
2465 2011-06-22 16:22:32 <wumpus> fiverawr: feel free to add a remote protocol between the GUI and the wallet
2466 2011-06-22 16:22:53 <emock> oh, fiverawr, and make sure it's secure
2467 2011-06-22 16:22:55 <luke-jr> Calchan: fwiw, I'm a former Gentoo developer about 6 years ago… I got fed up with the politics and crap
2468 2011-06-22 16:23:12 PantherModern has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2469 2011-06-22 16:23:12 <wumpus> yes, make it secure, at least TLS, no plaintext crap :)
2470 2011-06-22 16:23:16 <Calchan> luke-jr, I know that, being devrel I have file son a lot of people :o)
2471 2011-06-22 16:23:22 * sipa builds bitcoin-qr
2472 2011-06-22 16:23:24 * sipa builds bitcoin-qt
2473 2011-06-22 16:23:31 <luke-jr> Calchan: ah
2474 2011-06-22 16:23:48 <ersi> luke-jr: Thought I recognized your nick from somewhere else :)
2475 2011-06-22 16:23:52 <luke-jr> Calchan: well, everything else can't compare, so I hope your fixup of Gentoo goes well
2476 2011-06-22 16:24:00 PantherModern has joined
2477 2011-06-22 16:24:14 sabalaba has joined
2478 2011-06-22 16:24:14 anu has joined
2479 2011-06-22 16:24:18 <Calchan> luke-jr, it won't happen overnight, and it might never happen
2480 2011-06-22 16:24:26 <emock> so, we need to use the Wolfram Frontend/Kernel model...
2481 2011-06-22 16:24:41 <emock> well, lots of software uses that, but I use Mathematica the most
2482 2011-06-22 16:24:54 <Calchan> luke-jr, let's just say that it's something that I had planned when I left the council last year but my wife's accident delayed it
2483 2011-06-22 16:25:02 <wumpus> feel free to implement it, we especially need developers implementing stuff instead of stating how things should be :)
2484 2011-06-22 16:25:57 <luke-jr> Calchan: well, if it helps for me to maintain the few ebuilds I care about (ie, bitcoin-related stuff), without some huge obligation to watch the mailing lists and meet some minimum work requirement, let me know. although tbh, I think overlays for most stuff is actually a better route :p
2485 2011-06-22 16:26:10 <emock> honestly, it doesn't seem like a huge deal to make a wallet dylib as a first step
2486 2011-06-22 16:26:24 <luke-jr> Calchan: speaking of which, the overlays team seems to no longer be adding overlays to the list… :p
2487 2011-06-22 16:26:33 <Calchan> luke-jr, and I'd agree with you expecially when something as specific as bitcoin is concerned
2488 2011-06-22 16:27:07 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2489 2011-06-22 16:27:13 <Calchan> luke-jr, I can't spank everybody at the same time ;o) but github/gitorious without being listed on layman is fine too
2490 2011-06-22 16:27:15 <emock> oh, and don't forget to make the UI themeable...
2491 2011-06-22 16:27:21 Mononofu has joined
2492 2011-06-22 16:27:36 <luke-jr> Calchan: also, the KDE team likes to chew me out when I report bugs of their makign KDE depend on stuff it shouldn't (non-free and GTK stuff, mainly) :p
2493 2011-06-22 16:27:37 <luke-jr> hehe
2494 2011-06-22 16:27:38 <Calchan> luke-jr, you want the bitcoin overlay listed now?
2495 2011-06-22 16:27:51 <luke-jr> cacheson: someone filed a bug asking for the bitcoin overlay on the list a while ago
2496 2011-06-22 16:27:58 <luke-jr> layman complains when syncing if it isn't :?
2497 2011-06-22 16:28:00 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
2498 2011-06-22 16:28:03 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
2499 2011-06-22 16:28:03 jgarzik has joined
2500 2011-06-22 16:28:14 <luke-jr> :/
2501 2011-06-22 16:28:23 <Calchan> luke-jr, bug number?
2502 2011-06-22 16:28:33 BTCTrader_ has joined
2503 2011-06-22 16:28:44 <luke-jr> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=369019
2504 2011-06-22 16:29:00 <meelu> where can i find a good source for bitcoin prices
2505 2011-06-22 16:29:15 <meelu> when i accept a payment on my site i want to calculate the ammount of bitcoin to charge
2506 2011-06-22 16:29:40 <ersi> meelu: You'd go after the largest volume trading exchange
2507 2011-06-22 16:29:45 <Calchan> luke-jr, give me a few minutes to locate my sledgehammer, I'll see what I can do
2508 2011-06-22 16:29:47 <sipa> wumpus: seems to work nicely
2509 2011-06-22 16:30:02 <meelu> ersi, do you know which ones reliable?
2510 2011-06-22 16:30:03 <ersi> MtGox is down.. so the second best is... britcoin or tradehill (I think?) - check bitcoincharts.com I guess
2511 2011-06-22 16:30:09 <ersi> Heh, reliable :)
2512 2011-06-22 16:30:27 <luke-jr> isn't Britcoin down too?
2513 2011-06-22 16:30:35 <ersi> no idea actually :/
2514 2011-06-22 16:30:42 <ersi> I don't trade mah bitcoins
2515 2011-06-22 16:31:01 <prof7bit> this will all fail... I know it...
2516 2011-06-22 16:31:08 <meelu> i dont know how mtgox#s prices are changing
2517 2011-06-22 16:31:16 <meelu> are people still trading when its down
2518 2011-06-22 16:31:18 <ersi> no
2519 2011-06-22 16:31:23 <luke-jr> prof7bit: I'll take the bitcoins off your hands for $1 each
2520 2011-06-22 16:31:26 <ersi> Not on MtGox obviously :P
2521 2011-06-22 16:31:27 <emock> bitcoin-pit/otc
2522 2011-06-22 16:31:34 IncitatusOnWater has joined
2523 2011-06-22 16:32:38 <meelu> i remember it being 0.70 and i should have brought like a 1000
2524 2011-06-22 16:32:51 Faraday has quit ()
2525 2011-06-22 16:32:51 <ersi> meelu: Those trades will be rolled back
2526 2011-06-22 16:33:04 <ersi> so expect the price to be over 10$ when gox comes back
2527 2011-06-22 16:33:06 <meelu> i dont trust the trade prices anyway, i just want bitcoins
2528 2011-06-22 16:33:14 magn3ts_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2529 2011-06-22 16:33:22 magn3ts has joined
2530 2011-06-22 16:33:23 <ersi> I don't understand what you're writing
2531 2011-06-22 16:33:38 <meelu> should i not calculate the bitcoins to charge through trade prices but give a special price for people who pay through bitcoins, and it could be an incentive if its cheap?
2532 2011-06-22 16:33:59 <meelu> i meant the prices they are trading at right now looks very unstable
2533 2011-06-22 16:34:10 <ersi> I, personally think that's a better way than the retarded fluctuation in trade speculation prices
2534 2011-06-22 16:34:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2535 2011-06-22 16:34:28 <meelu> yeah, ima go with that
2536 2011-06-22 16:35:41 <emock> it's hard to figure out what the price should be...
2537 2011-06-22 16:36:05 AnatolV_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2538 2011-06-22 16:36:26 <emock> so, a mining find nets you 50 btw…  what should that be worth in USD?  Given the effort required to mine it
2539 2011-06-22 16:36:47 tobeabstract has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2540 2011-06-22 16:37:05 <emock> at the very least the cost of the electricity, right?
2541 2011-06-22 16:37:09 <luke-jr> emock: bitcoin values don't come from mining
2542 2011-06-22 16:37:29 <luke-jr> bitcoin values come from their liquidity
2543 2011-06-22 16:37:35 <luke-jr> beign able to exchange them for things
2544 2011-06-22 16:37:46 ketsa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2545 2011-06-22 16:37:48 <luke-jr> the cost to mine bitcoins follows the value
2546 2011-06-22 16:37:50 <xelister> meelu: mtgox wants to roll back this trades. not everyone is happy about this
2547 2011-06-22 16:37:53 <emock> I know, but what should 50 btw get you?
2548 2011-06-22 16:38:00 <emock> a pizza, a car?
2549 2011-06-22 16:38:02 <ersi> So you're actually setting that value, if you're one of the merchants
2550 2011-06-22 16:38:05 <prof7bit> the miners decide where they put their asks and the miners are the only ones who have new bitcoins
2551 2011-06-22 16:38:09 <luke-jr> emock: depends on what someone is willing to give you for 50 BTC
2552 2011-06-22 16:38:30 <emock> and there's the catch-22, no?
2553 2011-06-22 16:38:36 <luke-jr> prof7bit: most bitcoins are not new
2554 2011-06-22 16:39:15 <meelu> as bitcoins open source, whats stopping some other people from opening like 50 other currencys
2555 2011-06-22 16:39:23 <dehuman> meelu: nothing
2556 2011-06-22 16:39:30 <dehuman> meelu: have at it
2557 2011-06-22 16:39:42 <emock> namecoin, porncoin, etc...
2558 2011-06-22 16:39:58 <emock> well, I'm just assuming there's a porncoin
2559 2011-06-22 16:39:58 <meelu> if that did happen, whoever starts a currency and promotes it better than bitcoin could be better
2560 2011-06-22 16:40:03 <meelu> and bitcoins value will drop
2561 2011-06-22 16:40:09 <ersi> namecoins exists
2562 2011-06-22 16:40:17 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2563 2011-06-22 16:40:33 <meelu> then bitcoin should lose its value
2564 2011-06-22 16:40:41 <meelu> when they grow
2565 2011-06-22 16:40:44 <ersi> Why should it?
2566 2011-06-22 16:40:48 <ersi> *if* they grow
2567 2011-06-22 16:40:55 <meelu> because people will use the other ones
2568 2011-06-22 16:41:07 <emock> yes, I know namecoin exists
2569 2011-06-22 16:41:13 <ersi> Um, no.
2570 2011-06-22 16:41:25 <prof7bit> improve the protocol, make it scale (not like bitcoin which is already hitting the limits), find a way to prevent the existence of mining pools, make a usable client (not some half finished thing like the bitcoin client) and it might be a success.
2571 2011-06-22 16:41:27 <meelu> right now bitcoin is only worth this much because of the publicity am i wrong
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2573 2011-06-22 16:41:35 <ersi> You're wrong
2574 2011-06-22 16:41:40 <emock> meelu: there would be an exchange between btc and Xc
2575 2011-06-22 16:41:45 <ersi> Sure, one could argue you're right in a way
2576 2011-06-22 16:41:50 <meelu> i mean if there was a way where people can feed there bitcions back into the pool, and other people can mine it again
2577 2011-06-22 16:41:50 <ersi> But it's all in what people think it's worth
2578 2011-06-22 16:41:54 <meelu> it would have worked
2579 2011-06-22 16:42:02 <ersi> that's why you see these retarded speculation fluctuations
2580 2011-06-22 16:42:06 <meelu> and the people who send it back use the processing power
2581 2011-06-22 16:42:26 <ersi> Have you heard of 'transaction fees'?
2582 2011-06-22 16:42:31 <ersi> That's "putting it back in the pool"
2583 2011-06-22 16:42:38 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2584 2011-06-22 16:42:40 <emock> the problem is really that no one inherently wants bitcoins
2585 2011-06-22 16:42:53 <meelu> yes but its not a way to put it back in exchange for the way you got it
2586 2011-06-22 16:42:54 <ersi> Man.
2587 2011-06-22 16:42:59 * ersi facepalms and goes away
2588 2011-06-22 16:43:46 <meelu> is my view wrong
2589 2011-06-22 16:43:53 <meelu> ersi
2590 2011-06-22 16:44:01 <emock> I'm not even sure what you're saying.
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2594 2011-06-22 16:48:15 <meelu> is there a possiblity of creating another currency backed by bandwidth
2595 2011-06-22 16:48:39 <luke-jr> no
2596 2011-06-22 16:48:40 <emock> bandwidth?
2597 2011-06-22 16:48:45 p0s- has joined
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2599 2011-06-22 16:49:23 <luke-jr> meelu: bitcoins aren't backed by anything
2600 2011-06-22 16:49:46 d1g1t4l has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2601 2011-06-22 16:49:49 <emock> he's talking about a separate currency
2602 2011-06-22 16:49:52 <meelu> yeah thats my point, i would have preffered it to be backed by something
2603 2011-06-22 16:49:57 <meelu> on my other point
2604 2011-06-22 16:50:12 p0s has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2605 2011-06-22 16:50:30 <emock> like bandwidth is something people want…  unfortunately the community has no real control over it
2606 2011-06-22 16:51:20 ketsa has joined
2607 2011-06-22 16:52:30 <emock> a currency based on processing power might work…  and bitcoin kinda relies on it by rewarding those that have it
2608 2011-06-22 16:53:10 <Calchan> luke-jr, done
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2623 2011-06-22 17:00:42 <WildSoil> when is estimated difficulty increase
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2627 2011-06-22 17:00:59 <copumpkin> couple of days from now?
2628 2011-06-22 17:01:00 <ersi> ;;bc,stats
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2631 2011-06-22 17:01:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 132600 | Current Difficulty: 877226.66666667 | Next Difficulty At Block: 133055 | Next Difficulty In: 455 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 22 hours, 38 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1334121.45422953
2632 2011-06-22 17:01:17 unclemantis has joined
2633 2011-06-22 17:01:22 <ersi> In about one and a half days
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2641 2011-06-22 17:02:29 <luke-jr> Calchan: ?
2642 2011-06-22 17:02:47 <Calchan> luke-jr, bitcoin overlay added
2643 2011-06-22 17:02:58 altamic has joined
2644 2011-06-22 17:02:58 <luke-jr> Calchan: o, ty
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2675 2011-06-22 17:26:07 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Florian Schmaus * r9f09e6cfcdd2 gentoo/README: Overlay is now in http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/repositories.xml http://tinyurl.com/5vyrrsa
2676 2011-06-22 17:26:17 <wumpus> sipa: thanks
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2701 2011-06-22 17:46:32 <krekbwoy> when a miner reports its hash you get something like {"params":
2702 2011-06-22 17:46:32 <krekbwoy> ["000000010dbb81d4c7a7588d65b39aa0994b2c5a29aa57358049f9d70000000d00000000d2af65c9afe8604b2c24fd9332009a473e3ff73f4304a4e3e33cac41549c5e3d4dfcb7f61a1321852a53d91100000000
2703 2011-06-22 17:46:35 <krekbwoy> 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"], "method": "getwork", "id": 1}
2704 2011-06-22 17:46:52 <krekbwoy> where the first 80 bytes are the block header
2705 2011-06-22 17:47:10 <krekbwoy> but I cant figure out the byte ordering
2706 2011-06-22 17:47:28 <krekbwoy> of the previous hash and the merkle hash
2707 2011-06-22 17:48:01 <krekbwoy> the version and time comes out alright in big endian but I never get any valid previous block hashes
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2721 2011-06-22 17:59:50 <egecko> are there any size restrictions on the length of the comment?
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2723 2011-06-22 18:00:19 <lfm> krekbwoy: first do byteswap32 to make it all little endian then try hashing
2724 2011-06-22 18:00:54 <lfm> egecko: comment? transaction comments are depreciated afaik
2725 2011-06-22 18:01:11 mrh00d has joined
2726 2011-06-22 18:01:37 <mrh00d> anyone know how to crack FTP user/pass? I will pay in BTC
2727 2011-06-22 18:02:08 <lfm> mrh00d: that would be unethical.
2728 2011-06-22 18:02:16 <mrh00d> its mine
2729 2011-06-22 18:02:26 <lfm> then you already know
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2754 2011-06-22 18:45:00 <luke-jr> ;;bc,diff
2755 2011-06-22 18:45:02 <gribble> 877226.66666667
2756 2011-06-22 18:45:04 <luke-jr> ;;bc,estimate
2757 2011-06-22 18:45:06 <gribble> 1339086.96927697
2758 2011-06-22 18:46:47 <Happy0> i'm going slightely nuts... i'm trying to send an 'amount' over JSON-RPC, and it has to be a float... and Java keeps formatting it like '1.0E-4', i've tried using DecimalFormat but JSON must convert it from a string, to a float, putting it back to the '1.0E-4' style... has anyone had any experience with this sort of thing?
2759 2011-06-22 18:46:57 <Diablo-D3> no
2760 2011-06-22 18:47:09 <Happy0> ha, thanks =p
2761 2011-06-22 18:47:18 <Happy0> a negative response is better than no response
2762 2011-06-22 18:47:20 <Diablo-D3> use String.format("%0.8f", value);
2763 2011-06-22 18:47:30 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2764 2011-06-22 18:47:34 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: also
2765 2011-06-22 18:47:37 <Diablo-D3> DONT USE FUCKING FLOATS
2766 2011-06-22 18:47:45 <Happy0> lmao, what is the alternative?
2767 2011-06-22 18:47:46 <Diablo-D3> its a fucking fixed point currency
2768 2011-06-22 18:47:50 <Ycros> floats are bad.
2769 2011-06-22 18:47:56 <Diablo-D3> store it in satoshis as a long
2770 2011-06-22 18:48:08 <Happy0> http://ragefac.es/43
2771 2011-06-22 18:48:16 <Happy0> thanks a lot guys :)
2772 2011-06-22 18:48:19 <upb> so whats wrong with 1.0E-4 ?:P
2773 2011-06-22 18:48:22 <Happy0> i'll see what i can do =p
2774 2011-06-22 18:48:25 <Diablo-D3> upb: it cant parse it
2775 2011-06-22 18:48:27 <upb> the bitcoin code cant parse it ?:P
2776 2011-06-22 18:48:29 <upb> haha
2777 2011-06-22 18:48:36 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: and btw, when you DO have to finally convert it
2778 2011-06-22 18:48:38 <Diablo-D3> convert to a double
2779 2011-06-22 18:49:08 <Diablo-D3> people are trying to get gavin to add native satoshi variants of args
2780 2011-06-22 18:49:10 <Diablo-D3> but he hasnt yet
2781 2011-06-22 18:49:12 <Diablo-D3> and it pisses me off
2782 2011-06-22 18:49:29 <Happy0> thanks, dialo-D3 =]
2783 2011-06-22 18:50:31 <Diablo-D3> er whoops
2784 2011-06-22 18:50:37 <Diablo-D3> [02:46:19] <Diablo-D3> use String.format("%0.8f", value);
2785 2011-06-22 18:50:40 <Diablo-D3> remove that 0
2786 2011-06-22 18:50:42 <Diablo-D3> shouldnt be there
2787 2011-06-22 18:50:57 <Happy0> cheers =p
2788 2011-06-22 18:51:08 <Diablo-D3> and also, the f in a printf style format is double, not float
2789 2011-06-22 18:51:35 <vegard> printf("%lu.%08lu\n", value / 100000000, value % 100000000); <-- is this wrong? (for C)
2790 2011-06-22 18:51:52 RenaKunisaki has joined
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2792 2011-06-22 18:52:03 <Diablo-D3> vegard: it depends, what do you think the output is?
2793 2011-06-22 18:52:23 <Diablo-D3> vegard: because that prints a long unsighed, a period, then another long unsigned
2794 2011-06-22 18:52:27 midget is now known as Guest90785
2795 2011-06-22 18:52:33 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure if it respects your digit limit
2796 2011-06-22 18:52:38 <vegard> should be "x.yyyyyyyy" (well, remove the \n from the format string)
2797 2011-06-22 18:53:27 <vegard> it's not a limit per se. the intention was to pad it
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2800 2011-06-22 18:55:11 Phoebus has joined
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2802 2011-06-22 18:55:49 <Happy0> diablo-D3: i got 06-22 18:52:45.346: ERROR/AndroidRuntime(1092): Caused by: java.util.IllegalFormatConversionException: %f can't format java.lang.String arguments
2803 2011-06-22 18:55:55 <Happy0> =p
2804 2011-06-22 18:55:58 <Happy0> halp!
2805 2011-06-22 18:56:07 <Diablo-D3> you removed the 0, right?
2806 2011-06-22 18:56:07 <Happy0> nah, i should think about this before blindly asking =p
2807 2011-06-22 18:56:11 <Happy0> yeah =p
2808 2011-06-22 18:56:17 <Diablo-D3> and you're feeding it a double or float?
2809 2011-06-22 18:56:25 <Soak> hello, I have an error with my bitcoind daemon on ubuntu server: EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc (0
2810 2011-06-22 18:56:25 <vegard> String
2811 2011-06-22 18:56:29 <Happy0> :x a string
2812 2011-06-22 18:56:29 <Soak> 0.3.23)
2813 2011-06-22 18:56:38 <Happy0> woops
2814 2011-06-22 18:56:40 <Happy0> now i see the issue
2815 2011-06-22 18:56:47 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2816 2011-06-22 18:56:48 <Diablo-D3> why would you feed it a string?
2817 2011-06-22 18:57:20 unclemantis has quit ()
2818 2011-06-22 18:57:31 <Happy0> i'd like to claim by accident
2819 2011-06-22 18:57:33 blzpg is now known as blzpgn
2820 2011-06-22 18:57:35 <Happy0> but it wasn't =p
2821 2011-06-22 18:57:39 <Happy0> i'm just an idiot sometimes
2822 2011-06-22 18:57:41 <Soak> anyone can help me to fix that please?
2823 2011-06-22 18:57:48 <Diablo-D3> Soak: never seen that error
2824 2011-06-22 18:57:51 MC1984 has joined
2825 2011-06-22 18:57:53 <vegard> Soak: seems that you ran out of memory
2826 2011-06-22 18:58:04 <vegard> Soak: how much free memory do you have? (RAM)
2827 2011-06-22 18:58:05 <Soak> how many memory daemon need?
2828 2011-06-22 18:58:38 MC1984 has quit (Client Quit)
2829 2011-06-22 18:58:38 <Soak> 151 mb
2830 2011-06-22 18:58:41 <Soak> free
2831 2011-06-22 18:58:53 <vegard> it's a bit low. I've seen it use 250m
2832 2011-06-22 18:59:14 <Soak> :o
2833 2011-06-22 18:59:19 Mononofu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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2835 2011-06-22 19:00:19 <Happy0> Diablo-D3: to clarify, i should be feeding it a double, yeah?
2836 2011-06-22 19:00:30 <Diablo-D3> yes
2837 2011-06-22 19:00:53 <Diablo-D3> which in the code Ive written for my pool, I'd feed it (double)(satoshiValue / 10000000.0)
2838 2011-06-22 19:00:58 <Happy0> right, and then, when i'm putting it into JSON, convert it back to a double? (the string)
2839 2011-06-22 19:01:17 <Happy0> or keep it as a string?
2840 2011-06-22 19:02:07 misterp has joined
2841 2011-06-22 19:03:58 <Diablo-D3> you'd convert it back to a long
2842 2011-06-22 19:04:02 meelu has joined
2843 2011-06-22 19:04:02 <Diablo-D3> * 100000000
2844 2011-06-22 19:04:09 Gunni has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2845 2011-06-22 19:04:14 <Happy0> oh :|
2846 2011-06-22 19:04:33 phearful has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2849 2011-06-22 19:05:57 <lfm> if you use doubles you can loose accuracy I think on large amounts
2850 2011-06-22 19:06:25 <copumpkin> or just in general by doing arithmetic :P
2851 2011-06-22 19:06:42 <copumpkin> λ> sum (replicate 10000 0.1)
2852 2011-06-22 19:06:43 <copumpkin> 1000.0000000001588
2853 2011-06-22 19:06:58 <Diablo-D3> double precision exceeds what you need here
2854 2011-06-22 19:07:00 <copumpkin> just stick to base-2 fractions
2855 2011-06-22 19:07:00 <lfm> well ya but if you keep em as 64 bit long long values you should be ok
2856 2011-06-22 19:07:03 amiller has joined
2857 2011-06-22 19:07:09 <Diablo-D3> lfm: thats a long in java
2858 2011-06-22 19:07:18 <lfm> ok
2859 2011-06-22 19:07:26 <Bearaware> How do you send money through JSON, then, since that uses float encodings?
2860 2011-06-22 19:07:29 <Diablo-D3> in C, long long is always 64, int is always 32, long is 32 or 64 depending on the native arch
2861 2011-06-22 19:07:31 * copumpkin can't wait for c to have a long long long
2862 2011-06-22 19:07:36 <Diablo-D3> Bearaware: no, it uses a string.
2863 2011-06-22 19:07:42 <Bearaware> Oh :)
2864 2011-06-22 19:07:45 <Diablo-D3> technically you could hand parse it as a long too
2865 2011-06-22 19:07:52 <lfm> Diablo-D3: well thats not true on ALL platforms
2866 2011-06-22 19:08:05 <copumpkin> lfm: yeah it is, unless you're talking about crazy ancient stuff
2867 2011-06-22 19:08:05 <hipeopl> whens mtgox going back up?
2868 2011-06-22 19:08:12 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, the spec literally says char <= short <= int <= long <= long long
2869 2011-06-22 19:08:17 <Diablo-D3> so you can have 8 bit long longs
2870 2011-06-22 19:08:25 <Diablo-D3> and theres this one broken unix that made ints 64 bit
2871 2011-06-22 19:08:26 <lfm> copumpkin: only true on PCs really
2872 2011-06-22 19:08:39 <Diablo-D3> but generally, on sane platforms, what I said is true
2873 2011-06-22 19:08:40 <Diablo-D3> now, on java
2874 2011-06-22 19:08:42 <Happy0> 06-22 19:06:07.546: ERROR/AndroidRuntime(1164): Caused by: java.lang.NumberFormatException: 0.00001000
2875 2011-06-22 19:08:45 <Diablo-D3> theres no long long, and long is always 64
2876 2011-06-22 19:08:47 <Happy0> oh dear, what have i done...
2877 2011-06-22 19:09:05 p0s is now known as p0s-
2878 2011-06-22 19:09:10 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: uh... wat
2879 2011-06-22 19:09:41 cuddlefish has joined
2880 2011-06-22 19:09:46 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2881 2011-06-22 19:09:50 <Happy0> new Long(amount)* 100000000
2882 2011-06-22 19:09:51 <lfm> Happy0: convert the fraction and the whole BTC separatly then combine them. You havnt been programming for long eh?
2883 2011-06-22 19:10:00 MC1984 has joined
2884 2011-06-22 19:10:08 <Happy0> lfm: nah, i haven't
2885 2011-06-22 19:10:27 arima has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2886 2011-06-22 19:10:35 <Happy0> lfm: isn't that what i did, above?
2887 2011-06-22 19:10:48 <Happy0> amount is the string i formatted, from a double
2888 2011-06-22 19:10:59 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: erm, why would you new Long?
2889 2011-06-22 19:11:02 <lfm> Happy0: that code you just showed us uses doubles implicitly I think and if it does it will be inaccurate
2890 2011-06-22 19:11:15 <upb> what the hell are you doing anyway
2891 2011-06-22 19:11:16 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: what I told you is store your values as satoshis exclusively
2892 2011-06-22 19:11:28 <upb> long -> string -> double -> long ?:P
2893 2011-06-22 19:11:30 <Happy0> Diablo-D3, i have no idea what a 'satoshis' is?
2894 2011-06-22 19:11:32 <Diablo-D3> only convert to normal doubles at the very last moment
2895 2011-06-22 19:11:43 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: satoshi is the smallest form of btc
2896 2011-06-22 19:11:50 <Diablo-D3> its 1.0 BTC / 100000000
2897 2011-06-22 19:11:56 <lfm> Happy0: 1 satoshi == 0.00000001 BTC
2898 2011-06-22 19:11:56 <Happy0> you guys are now confusing the hell out of me =p
2899 2011-06-22 19:12:43 <lfm> Happy0: its like working in pennies instead of dollars to avoid fractions
2900 2011-06-22 19:12:56 <Happy0> i see =p
2901 2011-06-22 19:12:56 <Diablo-D3> yeah exactly
2902 2011-06-22 19:12:58 devon_hillard has joined
2903 2011-06-22 19:13:08 <Diablo-D3> satoshis are our pennies, except we have 8 places instead of 2
2904 2011-06-22 19:13:35 <Happy0> rightt, got you =]
2905 2011-06-22 19:13:37 <Happy0> cheers
2906 2011-06-22 19:13:41 <Happy0> makes sense
2907 2011-06-22 19:13:53 <Diablo-D3> speaking of which, I should be working on my damned pool
2908 2011-06-22 19:14:01 Guest84758 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2909 2011-06-22 19:14:30 <Happy0> String amount = String.format("%.8f", thedouble);
2910 2011-06-22 19:14:30 <Happy0> new Long(amount)* 100000000
2911 2011-06-22 19:14:40 <lfm> good luck, test your code with values like 10000000.00000001 BTC then add a satoshi to see if it does it right.
2912 2011-06-22 19:14:44 <Happy0> so i take it i'm on completely the long lines here...
2913 2011-06-22 19:15:05 <Happy0> thanks lfm =]
2914 2011-06-22 19:15:11 <upb> what are you trying to achieve by that
2915 2011-06-22 19:15:18 <upb> why convert to string ?
2916 2011-06-22 19:15:34 <lfm> upb: that should fail if you are using doubles I think
2917 2011-06-22 19:15:44 <egecko> why would comment be deprecated?
2918 2011-06-22 19:15:57 <Happy0> eupb: diablo-D3 told me to :(
2919 2011-06-22 19:16:01 <nuthin> best would be to just have two integers
2920 2011-06-22 19:16:03 <egecko> surely it was intended to be used if the genesis block includes it
2921 2011-06-22 19:16:07 <lfm> egecko: cuz its not really supported any more
2922 2011-06-22 19:16:44 larsivi has joined
2923 2011-06-22 19:16:45 <nuthin> one for satoshis and one for whole bitcoins
2924 2011-06-22 19:16:47 <upb> Happy0: trying to feed a double into a json-rpc request? why not give it the string then ?
2925 2011-06-22 19:17:00 <lfm> nuthin: not really best. best is 64 bit binary integers but two 32 bit integers would work if you cant do 64 bit
2926 2011-06-22 19:17:06 <Happy0> 'cause it puts the string in scientific format
2927 2011-06-22 19:17:08 <Happy0> upb
2928 2011-06-22 19:17:20 <upb> how would it know to do that
2929 2011-06-22 19:17:31 <lfm> iiieee scientific format would be wrong
2930 2011-06-22 19:17:42 <upb> unless you have some kind of json schema defined when the member is double
2931 2011-06-22 19:17:43 <nuthin> lfm: well, yeah that would work too probably
2932 2011-06-22 19:17:58 <upb> instead of string
2933 2011-06-22 19:18:00 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2934 2011-06-22 19:18:10 fmetro has joined
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2936 2011-06-22 19:19:08 <Diablo-D3> [03:13:38] <lfm> good luck, test your code with values like 10000000.00000001 BTC then add a satoshi to see if it does it right.
2937 2011-06-22 19:19:09 arima has joined
2938 2011-06-22 19:19:11 <Diablo-D3> thats pretty insane
2939 2011-06-22 19:19:14 _joe has joined
2940 2011-06-22 19:19:37 <Diablo-D3> but yes
2941 2011-06-22 19:19:45 <Diablo-D3> for the 21 million btc we'll ever have
2942 2011-06-22 19:19:46 <Diablo-D3> long is enough
2943 2011-06-22 19:20:16 <Happy0> lmao
2944 2011-06-22 19:20:29 da2ce7 has joined
2945 2011-06-22 19:20:42 <Happy0> so eh guys
2946 2011-06-22 19:20:45 <Happy0> is this sort of thing acceptable...
2947 2011-06-22 19:20:46 <Happy0> double d = 1234.56;
2948 2011-06-22 19:20:46 <Happy0> long x = (long) d; // x = 1234
2949 2011-06-22 19:21:03 <Diablo-D3> Happy0: no.
2950 2011-06-22 19:21:08 <Diablo-D3> you're storing satoshis
2951 2011-06-22 19:21:12 <Happy0> right
2952 2011-06-22 19:21:16 <Happy0> so i can't afford loss
2953 2011-06-22 19:21:19 <Diablo-D3> this means you multiply that value by 100000000.0 first
2954 2011-06-22 19:21:29 <Happy0> before converting to long, or after?
2955 2011-06-22 19:21:37 <Diablo-D3> so double d = 1234.56 * 100000000.0;
2956 2011-06-22 19:21:47 <Happy0> right, cheers =]
2957 2011-06-22 19:22:25 <_joe> if i am not current on blocks, but they will not increase for me (they did download earlier today), and i have 8 connections, what are some things i can do to figure out what's going on?
2958 2011-06-22 19:22:32 <Diablo-D3> and then to convert back, you (double)satoshiValue / 100000000.0
2959 2011-06-22 19:22:32 <_joe> i'm tailing debug.log but i'm not sure what to look for
2960 2011-06-22 19:22:33 danbri has joined
2961 2011-06-22 19:22:45 Rictoo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2962 2011-06-22 19:23:10 Rictoo has joined
2963 2011-06-22 19:23:20 <Happy0> it says 'cannot cast from double to long'
2964 2011-06-22 19:23:39 <Happy0> argh, 2 secs
2965 2011-06-22 19:24:43 <lfm> happy I told you what test value to try. 1234.56 is no where near large enuf for a proper test
2966 2011-06-22 19:24:45 <vegard> why use these horrible doubles in the first place?
2967 2011-06-22 19:24:57 <Diablo-D3> vegard: because the json-rpc is wrong.
2968 2011-06-22 19:24:57 <Happy0> lfm: i'm not quite at that stage yet
2969 2011-06-22 19:24:59 <Diablo-D3> it should use satoshis
2970 2011-06-22 19:25:04 <Diablo-D3> btw, for those bitching about long
2971 2011-06-22 19:25:05 <vegard> why not fix the json-rpc?
2972 2011-06-22 19:25:05 <_joe> alternately, will copying my addr.dat and my wallet.dat to a fresh .bitcoin let me keep my current (receive) addresses and wallet and start afresh as regards blocks?
2973 2011-06-22 19:25:14 <_joe> i need to make *sure* i keep my addresses if i do that...
2974 2011-06-22 19:25:20 eoss has joined
2975 2011-06-22 19:25:33 <Diablo-D3> a signed long does up to 9223372036854775807
2976 2011-06-22 19:25:42 <vegard> addr.dat is for peer addresses, right? not bitcoin wallet addresses
2977 2011-06-22 19:25:48 <lfm> _joe:  ya, that should work ok
2978 2011-06-22 19:25:56 <Diablo-D3> or 92233720368.54775807 btc
2979 2011-06-22 19:26:03 <_joe> lfm: mkay, thanks
2980 2011-06-22 19:26:15 <_joe> vegard: i don't know...
2981 2011-06-22 19:26:16 <Diablo-D3> vegard: yes, past and future wallet addresses are in the wallet
2982 2011-06-22 19:26:46 <_joe> addresses i have generated are contained in wallet.dat?
2983 2011-06-22 19:26:58 <lfm> _joe: ya addr.dat is node addresses. your bitcoin addresses are stored in wallet.dat
2984 2011-06-22 19:27:07 <_joe> ah ok
2985 2011-06-22 19:27:13 <_joe> then i'll just keep wallet.dat
2986 2011-06-22 19:27:16 <Diablo-D3> so a signed long can store about 4392 times more BTC than we need
2987 2011-06-22 19:27:17 <_joe> and nothing else
2988 2011-06-22 19:27:30 makomk has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2989 2011-06-22 19:27:30 <Diablo-D3> _joe: thats all you HAVE to backup
2990 2011-06-22 19:27:32 <lfm> _joe sure
2991 2011-06-22 19:27:39 <Diablo-D3> its just a pita to keep redownloading a new peer list and the blocks again
2992 2011-06-22 19:27:48 <_joe> tru dat
2993 2011-06-22 19:27:56 <_joe> for some reason i can't download more blocks though
2994 2011-06-22 19:27:57 pensan has joined
2995 2011-06-22 19:28:01 <lfm> _joe it will be pretty slow to get back up to speed
2996 2011-06-22 19:28:04 <copumpkin> can't client downloads come with a bootstrapped block chain?
2997 2011-06-22 19:28:07 <_joe> i'm stuck at 132609 and i have 8 connections
2998 2011-06-22 19:28:08 <copumpkin> give you a big chunks of them?
2999 2011-06-22 19:28:14 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: no
3000 2011-06-22 19:28:16 <Diablo-D3> too easy to hack
3001 2011-06-22 19:28:19 <_joe> have restarted several times, tried connecting over tor, etc.
3002 2011-06-22 19:28:19 <Diablo-D3> and technically
3003 2011-06-22 19:28:20 <lfm> computhey could
3004 2011-06-22 19:28:29 <nanotube> copumpkin: there's a block chain snapshot on sf.net releases for bitcoin
3005 2011-06-22 19:28:31 <Diablo-D3> the clients can use a bittorrent like system
3006 2011-06-22 19:28:40 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3007 2011-06-22 19:28:42 <Diablo-D3> they download the list of block signatures first
3008 2011-06-22 19:28:43 <copumpkin> nanotube: I see
3009 2011-06-22 19:28:45 <Diablo-D3> which is really small
3010 2011-06-22 19:28:48 <lfm> _joe: ya it takes a long tim,e sometimes
3011 2011-06-22 19:28:52 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3012 2011-06-22 19:28:55 <Diablo-D3> and then they download the block contents later
3013 2011-06-22 19:29:05 <Diablo-D3> they could always farm the block contents downloads out
3014 2011-06-22 19:29:08 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: do i sense a patch coming on? :)
3015 2011-06-22 19:29:13 <_joe> lfm: why does it take a long time? i usually get my incremental handful of blocks immediately after starting the client
3016 2011-06-22 19:29:18 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: no.
3017 2011-06-22 19:29:23 <nanotube> heh
3018 2011-06-22 19:29:33 <Diablo-D3> _joe: its slow because it only downloads block contents from one peer
3019 2011-06-22 19:29:35 <Diablo-D3> instead of several
3020 2011-06-22 19:29:39 <cuddlefish> PROTIP: connect to cryptonomicoin.ubitex.org. Full block chain, no connection limit
3021 2011-06-22 19:29:39 <_joe> ah
3022 2011-06-22 19:29:51 <Diablo-D3> it CAN do several
3023 2011-06-22 19:29:52 <Diablo-D3> it just doesnt
3024 2011-06-22 19:29:54 <lfm> _joe: I think it has trouble recovering from trasmission errors or something
3025 2011-06-22 19:30:07 <_joe> i didn't mean to ask why getting the complete chain is slow (i get that), but why would i be stuck at the same block count for hours
3026 2011-06-22 19:30:21 <Diablo-D3> jesus christ
3027 2011-06-22 19:30:27 <Diablo-D3> indigo is still downloading
3028 2011-06-22 19:31:18 davro has joined
3029 2011-06-22 19:31:27 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3030 2011-06-22 19:31:27 <lfm> _joe: ya I think if it misses a block it gets stuck for, as you say, hours. I think it will recover if you leave it over night or something
3031 2011-06-22 19:31:49 <_joe> lfm: ah ok, cool. i will try that
3032 2011-06-22 19:33:23 <lfm> Diablo-D3: what is indego?
3033 2011-06-22 19:33:31 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: does it have the flood filtering removed?
3034 2011-06-22 19:33:32 Gunni has joined
3035 2011-06-22 19:33:43 <Diablo-D3> lfm: newest eclipse
3036 2011-06-22 19:34:12 <gjs278> should have downloaded indigo prophecy instead
3037 2011-06-22 19:34:18 <davro> Does anyone use the config option SSE instructions for faster bitcoin generation eg, 4way=1
3038 2011-06-22 19:34:18 <emock> can anyone summarize what the TRY_CRITICAL_BLOCK macro does?
3039 2011-06-22 19:34:47 ChuckSchumer has joined
3040 2011-06-22 19:35:09 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: No, just max_connections at 9999
3041 2011-06-22 19:35:10 <lfm> davro: I think that stuff is dropped from the main bitcoin, you need cpuminer if you still need to run that way
3042 2011-06-22 19:35:58 <lfm> emock isnt that a conditional lonking macro?
3043 2011-06-22 19:36:05 <lfm> locking
3044 2011-06-22 19:36:25 <emock>     for (bool fcriticalblockonce=true; fcriticalblockonce; assert(("break caught by TRY_CRITICAL_BLOCK!", !fcriticalblockonce)), fcriticalblockonce=false)  \
3045 2011-06-22 19:36:25 <emock>     for (CTryCriticalBlock criticalblock(cs); fcriticalblockonce && (fcriticalblockonce = criticalblock.Entered()) && (cs.pszFile=__FILE__, cs.nLine=__LINE__, true); fcriticalblockonce=false, cs.pszFile=NULL, cs.nLine=0)
3046 2011-06-22 19:36:29 <davro> lfm: Cheers im just reading though my config checking options for speeding stuff up :]
3047 2011-06-22 19:37:17 <lfm> davro: ok ya, if you want to do cpu mining tho get the separate cpuminer
3048 2011-06-22 19:37:27 misterp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3049 2011-06-22 19:38:01 <lfm> davro: it will still be stupidly slow but faster than the bitcoin implementation
3050 2011-06-22 19:38:26 <meelu> Whats the implications i might come accross when starting a bitcoin exchange site
3051 2011-06-22 19:38:52 <vegard> leaked databases
3052 2011-06-22 19:39:07 <lfm> meelu: about the same as any money exchange really
3053 2011-06-22 19:39:37 pirrr has joined
3054 2011-06-22 19:39:50 <Soak> http://pastebin.com/iCqDMCWq
3055 2011-06-22 19:40:04 Nicksasa has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3056 2011-06-22 19:40:18 <vegard> Soak: does it always fail in the same place?
3057 2011-06-22 19:40:36 <Soak> yes
3058 2011-06-22 19:40:54 DaQatz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3059 2011-06-22 19:41:00 DaQatz has joined
3060 2011-06-22 19:42:53 <Soak> if I test outdated version?
3061 2011-06-22 19:42:59 <Soak> 0.3.21 for example?
3062 2011-06-22 19:43:38 <lfm> soak good idea
3063 2011-06-22 19:43:58 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3064 2011-06-22 19:44:02 Nicksasa has joined
3065 2011-06-22 19:45:03 <Soak> -su: ./bitcoind: Permission denied
3066 2011-06-22 19:45:04 <Soak> o_o
3067 2011-06-22 19:45:17 <ionspin> Anyone using bitcoinj?
3068 2011-06-22 19:45:32 <x6763> how do people go about securing the wallets when putting up a website that both accepts payments from users, and send payments to users (withdrawals)?
3069 2011-06-22 19:45:52 Pinion has joined
3070 2011-06-22 19:47:41 p0s- is now known as p0s
3071 2011-06-22 19:48:15 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
3072 2011-06-22 19:48:31 <enquirer> may be a separate computer with only port 8333 open for incoming and 8333 for outgoing connections?
3073 2011-06-22 19:48:32 <vegard> maybe put it on a separate machine connected only via lan, and a small, private protocol for transferring funds
3074 2011-06-22 19:48:42 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3075 2011-06-22 19:49:23 o_0oo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3076 2011-06-22 19:50:27 underscor has joined
3077 2011-06-22 19:50:36 <enquirer> private protocol good idea
3078 2011-06-22 19:50:47 takezo420 has joined
3079 2011-06-22 19:51:43 <lfm> x6763: same way you secure and site that handles money or credit card stuff or whatever
3080 2011-06-22 19:51:45 <Soak> ok 0.3.21 version needs chmod 755
3081 2011-06-22 19:53:29 Jaagu has joined
3082 2011-06-22 19:53:47 <x6763> lfm: well, those types of transactions are reversible, whereas bitcoin transactions are not...seems extremely risky for a site to be able to tell the bitcoin client to send out a payment
3083 2011-06-22 19:53:48 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3084 2011-06-22 19:54:13 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3085 2011-06-22 19:55:01 Jaagu has quit (Client Quit)
3086 2011-06-22 19:55:13 SecretSJ has quit (Quit: It's a dud! It's a dud! It's a du...)
3087 2011-06-22 19:55:25 Jaagu has joined
3088 2011-06-22 19:55:42 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: setting max connections doesn't actually make you better for getting the blockchain than anyone else
3089 2011-06-22 19:56:03 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: the reason the blockchain fetch is so slow now is because it triggers the freeking anti-flooding logic and your node will disconnect the peer.
3090 2011-06-22 19:56:26 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: also 9999 is going to cause you to crash if you haven't also increased the fd max (defaults to 1024)
3091 2011-06-22 19:58:27 pyro__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3092 2011-06-22 19:58:37 Jaagu has quit (Client Quit)
3093 2011-06-22 19:59:16 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3094 2011-06-22 20:00:06 phearful has joined
3095 2011-06-22 20:01:39 <Happy0> see if i send the 'amount' parameter as a string, will the bitcoin daemon accept it?
3096 2011-06-22 20:01:46 <Happy0> i've sorted out representing it as a long
3097 2011-06-22 20:02:05 <Happy0> but, when i convert the JSON object to a string, to post it to the server
3098 2011-06-22 20:02:16 <Happy0> the toString puts it back in scientific notation
3099 2011-06-22 20:02:23 <upb> dude
3100 2011-06-22 20:02:25 <Happy0> so if i had it as a string in the first place, i could format it as decimal
3101 2011-06-22 20:02:35 <upb> you have it defined somewhere that the amount parameter is a double
3102 2011-06-22 20:02:59 <upb> otherwise the rpc library wouldnt now to turn it into scientific notation
3103 2011-06-22 20:03:13 <Happy0> yeah, i do
3104 2011-06-22 20:03:17 <Happy0> well, a long
3105 2011-06-22 20:03:22 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3106 2011-06-22 20:03:39 <upb> so its obvious why this happens, you cant get around it by converting to long -> string -> double -> string or whatever you did there
3107 2011-06-22 20:03:51 <upb> just make it a string
3108 2011-06-22 20:04:46 <Happy0> and bitcoind will accept that?
3109 2011-06-22 20:04:47 LameArse has joined
3110 2011-06-22 20:04:50 <Happy0> upb?
3111 2011-06-22 20:04:51 bx_ has joined
3112 2011-06-22 20:05:02 <upb> if it doesnt, you need to patch your json-rpc lib or use another one
3113 2011-06-22 20:05:14 <Happy0> i'm not using a json-rpc lib =p
3114 2011-06-22 20:05:17 <LameArse> hi hi
3115 2011-06-22 20:05:26 TheZimm has joined
3116 2011-06-22 20:05:34 <Happy0> i'm just making JSON objects following the format of RPC
3117 2011-06-22 20:05:45 <Happy0> then converting them to strings, and posting them
3118 2011-06-22 20:05:52 <bx_> Looking for solid skilled experienced devs willing to work for BTC and potential partnership in numerous large projects currently being developed. Please be mature . PM me, Thank you.
3119 2011-06-22 20:06:09 p0s is now known as p0s-
3120 2011-06-22 20:06:15 <Happy0> everyone here knows i'm a great programmer, bx_ :D
3121 2011-06-22 20:06:18 <Happy0> isn't that right?
3122 2011-06-22 20:06:19 <cut> a bitcoin thesocialnetwork?
3123 2011-06-22 20:06:48 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3124 2011-06-22 20:06:59 tca` has joined
3125 2011-06-22 20:07:02 <upb> if youre not using a json-rpc lib then what is turning your amount into scientific notation ?
3126 2011-06-22 20:07:13 <upb> some abstraction layer must be doing it
3127 2011-06-22 20:08:03 <upb> < Happy0> but, when i convert the JSON object to a string, to post it to the server
3128 2011-06-22 20:08:26 <Happy0> JSONObject.toString();
3129 2011-06-22 20:08:34 <Happy0> i have to do that to post it to the server
3130 2011-06-22 20:08:39 <Happy0> using httpclient
3131 2011-06-22 20:08:47 karnac has joined
3132 2011-06-22 20:08:50 <upb> see thats the library youre using
3133 2011-06-22 20:09:03 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: yeah, I've fixed the FD max
3134 2011-06-22 20:09:09 <upb> and that is whats representing it in scientific notation
3135 2011-06-22 20:09:18 <nuthin> u r fd max
3136 2011-06-22 20:09:20 zamgo has joined
3137 2011-06-22 20:09:31 <Happy0> indeed, upb :'(
3138 2011-06-22 20:09:57 <bx_> cut nope
3139 2011-06-22 20:10:16 <cut> bx_: thats what they all say
3140 2011-06-22 20:11:38 <bx_> lol whatever man :]
3141 2011-06-22 20:11:40 <bx_> Skeptics need not apply.
3142 2011-06-22 20:12:04 <jercos> Haters gonna hate ;)
3143 2011-06-22 20:12:31 eternal1 has joined
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3149 2011-06-22 20:19:25 relix is now known as lulzsec
3150 2011-06-22 20:19:59 lulzsec is now known as relix
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3157 2011-06-22 20:25:41 <cosurgi> ;;bc,poolstats
3158 2011-06-22 20:25:41 <gribble> Error: "bc,poolstats" is not a valid command.
3159 2011-06-22 20:25:47 <cosurgi> why this sin't working?
3160 2011-06-22 20:25:54 <cosurgi> ;;bc,deepbit
3161 2011-06-22 20:25:55 <gribble> 3322364000
3162 2011-06-22 20:25:59 <cosurgi> hmm
3163 2011-06-22 20:27:07 pakaran has joined
3164 2011-06-22 20:27:08 <Happy0> upb: i'm beginning to regret not starting this whole project with a JSON-RPC library =p
3165 2011-06-22 20:27:15 <Happy0> i thought to myself
3166 2011-06-22 20:27:31 <pakaran> anyone want to send me testnet bitcoins?  I'm trying to figure out how the "change" mechanism works by checking block explorer.  When I'm done, I'll send them back to you, or donate them to the faucet, at your option.  my address is mwEXYpXwB7m4dTcJhQ5SnyzDvbR3MNyEtG thanks!.  If you want to give me a lot (thousands) I may be willing to pay something like a real bitnickel for 2 thousand
3167 2011-06-22 20:27:38 <Happy0> 'well, JSON-RPC looks like it's a JSON object, with a 'method' field...'
3168 2011-06-22 20:27:42 <Happy0> i guess there's a bit more to it
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3173 2011-06-22 20:29:47 <upb> Happy0: see the docs about json serialization
3174 2011-06-22 20:29:54 <upb> there might be some way to influence the formatting
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3177 2011-06-22 20:30:11 Nexus_7 is now known as Nexus7
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3180 2011-06-22 20:30:19 <upb> like with XML and SOAP in .NET you can set attributes on the variable to influence that
3181 2011-06-22 20:30:22 <Happy0> yeah right now i'm considering chopping at the string it generates =p
3182 2011-06-22 20:30:34 <Happy0> good shout though, upb, i'll take a look
3183 2011-06-22 20:30:41 <upb> and java has those annotations or whatever
3184 2011-06-22 20:32:12 <Happy0> theJSONObject.toString() , maybe if i use another package to convert it to string...
3185 2011-06-22 20:32:22 <xtalmath> looking at the makefile I see 3 libraries for threading: pthread, boost_thread and gthread-2.0. why are 3 threading libraries linked into the client?
3186 2011-06-22 20:33:06 k^^ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3187 2011-06-22 20:33:21 <xelister> xtalmath: isnt boost's thread depend on pthread
3188 2011-06-22 20:33:26 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3189 2011-06-22 20:33:38 <xelister> and gthread-2.0 isn't perhaps wrapper on pthread, used by wx?
3190 2011-06-22 20:33:43 <xelister> just guessing
3191 2011-06-22 20:33:54 k^^ has joined
3192 2011-06-22 20:34:21 <lfm> xelister ya I think boost threads do use pthread
3193 2011-06-22 20:34:40 <xtalmath> xelister: I think a client application linked to lib boost thread doesnt have to link to everything boostthread links to... otherwis every application would be linked to thousands of libs making up your user domain operating system
3194 2011-06-22 20:35:18 <xelister> xtalmath: well try removing it, perhaps it will help
3195 2011-06-22 20:35:21 <xelister> *work sitll
3196 2011-06-22 20:35:28 <lfm> xtalmath: look at ldd bitcoind
3197 2011-06-22 20:35:49 <xtalmath> "ldd" ?
3198 2011-06-22 20:35:55 <lfm> linux command
3199 2011-06-22 20:36:41 <lfm> lists the dyn libs loaded when you load the command
3200 2011-06-22 20:37:16 RobboNZ has joined
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3206 2011-06-22 20:39:27 <GarrettB> So, anybody here a mod or admin on the forums?
3207 2011-06-22 20:39:57 Fairuser is now known as AFK!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser
3208 2011-06-22 20:42:05 <xtalmath> hmm, I still dont understand, I always thought libraries to be loaded at runtime were set at linktime
3209 2011-06-22 20:42:35 <xtalmath> lfm: how come I can see pthread and gthread but not boost thread when I ldd bitcoind?
3210 2011-06-22 20:43:01 ZOP has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3211 2011-06-22 20:43:18 <lfm> xtalmath: some dyn libs can be indirectly loaded. the app does not need to directly load them
3212 2011-06-22 20:43:22 eternal11 has joined
3213 2011-06-22 20:43:58 <lfm> xtalmath: you might have a "combined" boost lib that has all the boost libs in it
3214 2011-06-22 20:44:01 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3215 2011-06-22 20:44:03 <xtalmath> you mean like dlopen?
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3221 2011-06-22 20:45:21 <lfm> no, bitcoin does not ref ptheread really, it just refs boost threads and the boost thread lib(s) then ref pthread so when you load bitcoin it loads the boost libs it wants and the boost lib load pthread and maybe others
3222 2011-06-22 20:45:30 <xtalmath> I thought that if you link with a library the OS will try to load the library at runtime, and that if you use dlopen("... .so") you dont have to link against it?
3223 2011-06-22 20:46:02 <xtalmath> lfm: so the -lpthread and -lgthread are unnecessary in the makefile.unix?
3224 2011-06-22 20:46:17 Bwild_ has quit (Quit: XChat has quit... Bad chat, bad! No squeeky toy!)
3225 2011-06-22 20:46:24 <lfm> xtalmath: dlopen is more for like plugins and stuff where you maybe dont even have the lib around at link time, you just look for it at run time
3226 2011-06-22 20:47:00 <lfm> xtalmath: they would only be needed I think if you are static linking them
3227 2011-06-22 20:47:40 <xtalmath> right, but what did you mean in "(10:46:51 PM) lfm: no, bitcoin d..." sentence? it seems like we are unnecessarily linking indirectly used libraries?
3228 2011-06-22 20:47:44 <hipeopl> anyone know when gtox is going back up?
3229 2011-06-22 20:48:19 <xtalmath> lfm: how are we static linking them if we use boost headers and not code?
3230 2011-06-22 20:48:54 <lfm> hipeopl: if you read the announcements at mtgox.com you know as much as anyone
3231 2011-06-22 20:48:55 <xtalmath> I am in the illusion that we only have to link libraries which functions we directly use in our code?
3232 2011-06-22 20:49:02 MC1984 has joined
3233 2011-06-22 20:49:26 <lfm> xtalmath: static or dyn linking is done at link time, not at compile time
3234 2011-06-22 20:49:27 <hipeopl> haha
3235 2011-06-22 20:49:32 <hipeopl> same update as yesterday
3236 2011-06-22 20:49:41 carli2 has joined
3237 2011-06-22 20:49:50 <carli2> hi
3238 2011-06-22 20:49:50 <xtalmath> i.e. : if bitcoin code itself contains boostthread function calls and pthread function calls we would have to link both, if only boost, only boost
3239 2011-06-22 20:50:02 Bwild has joined
3240 2011-06-22 20:50:27 <carli2> how is a block checked? is there a way to check if the previous-block is correct?
3241 2011-06-22 20:50:29 <lfm> xtalmath: if you are static linking you need to -l all the libs needed at run time
3242 2011-06-22 20:51:04 <xtalmath> lfm: then why is ldd list much longer than -l lib link list in makefile for bitcoin (with gui)?
3243 2011-06-22 20:51:05 <carli2> and also the timestamp seems to be like an interesting number that could changed to get better checksums
3244 2011-06-22 20:51:12 <lfm> carli2: the blocks are all checked when they are received by bitcoin
3245 2011-06-22 20:51:15 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3246 2011-06-22 20:51:43 <lfm> carli2: yes some miners change the timestamp to try to find blocks
3247 2011-06-22 20:52:30 <lfm> xtalmath: ldd only lists the dyn libs, it does not see anything linked staiclly
3248 2011-06-22 20:52:31 <carli2> lfm: how can i check all the prev blocks? that would make it as hard as computing the block
3249 2011-06-22 20:52:35 molecular has joined
3250 2011-06-22 20:52:58 <xtalmath> ldd bitcoin gives 54 lines of libraries, while makefile.unix only links 11 or 12 depending on upnp
3251 2011-06-22 20:53:17 <lfm> carli2: -rescan or retarting the blk0001.dat database would rescan all the blocks
3252 2011-06-22 20:53:46 ZOP has joined
3253 2011-06-22 20:53:52 <xtalmath> lfm: so statically linked means the library machine code is packaged into the executable? how portable can that be?
3254 2011-06-22 20:54:05 <lfm> xtalmath: yes dyn libs might not be listed in the makefile. you only really need to list static libs
3255 2011-06-22 20:54:23 tandy80 has joined
3256 2011-06-22 20:54:43 <lfm> xtalmath: well most executables are not considered portable anyway
3257 2011-06-22 20:55:16 <lfm> linux binaries only run on linux (and maybe freebsd or something)
3258 2011-06-22 20:55:40 <xtalmath> if ldd only lists dynamic lists, then why do I see libgthread and libpthread in ldd?
3259 2011-06-22 20:55:54 <xtalmath> /s/lists/libs
3260 2011-06-22 20:55:54 <lfm> cuz they are dyn libs
3261 2011-06-22 20:56:28 <lfm> just because -l option is there doesnt mean it is linked staic, it could still be dyn
3262 2011-06-22 20:56:35 <xtalmath> "yes dyn libs might not be listed in the makefile. you only really need to list static libs" so everything listed in ldd can be excluded from makefile?
3263 2011-06-22 20:57:10 <lfm> you dont NEED dyn libs in the makefile but they might be there anyway
3264 2011-06-22 20:57:21 <xtalmath> how does the programmer control if it is statically or dynamically linked, if -l doesnt mean its statically linked?
3265 2011-06-22 20:57:37 carli2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3266 2011-06-22 20:57:43 <GarrettB> gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:9dd83cc4eeb6a2d783384332ffbf373f1000e90a23c840683acbcb59
3267 2011-06-22 20:57:48 <GarrettB> ''gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:9dd83cc4eeb6a2d783384332ffbf373f1000e90a23c840683acbcb59
3268 2011-06-22 20:57:53 <GarrettB> ;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:9dd83cc4eeb6a2d783384332ffbf373f1000e90a23c840683acbcb59
3269 2011-06-22 20:57:54 <gribble> You are now authenticated for user 'GarrettB' with key B1D8EBC8A5CC060B
3270 2011-06-22 20:57:56 <xtalmath> ok, so it would make it simpler for newcomers if we remove -l pthread etc? as they are dynlibs according to ldd?
3271 2011-06-22 20:57:59 <GarrettB> ;;letmein
3272 2011-06-22 20:58:05 <GarrettB> oops, wrong channel
3273 2011-06-22 20:58:38 <xtalmath> lfm: thanks for helping me try to understand although I still dont fully do
3274 2011-06-22 20:58:42 <lfm> there are various ways to control static vs dynamic. if you want EVERYthing static there is the gcc -static option. there are also the  -Wl,-Bstatic \
3275 2011-06-22 20:58:48 carli2 has joined
3276 2011-06-22 20:58:55 <lfm> options
3277 2011-06-22 20:59:03 <xtalmath> those are present actually in makefile
3278 2011-06-22 20:59:04 <carli2> my laptop hat a heat problem :D
3279 2011-06-22 20:59:29 <lfm> and  -Wl,-Bdynamic \
3280 2011-06-22 20:59:34 <xtalmath> those flags you mentioned really helped me
3281 2011-06-22 20:59:36 <xtalmath> :D
3282 2011-06-22 20:59:52 <xtalmath> thanks, first read in makefile I read over the difference of Bdyn and Bstat,...
3283 2011-06-22 21:00:08 <carli2> what does the merkle_root in the header mean? is that the signature of the first transaction i want to do?
3284 2011-06-22 21:00:19 <lfm> ok have fun. you can probably change that stuff around now to try different ways if you want
3285 2011-06-22 21:00:48 <lfm> carli2: it is a hash of all the transactions in the block actually
3286 2011-06-22 21:00:48 <xtalmath> on basis of what does one decide to include a library statically? because something is possibly not installed on target audience but portable enough to run there?
3287 2011-06-22 21:01:11 <carli2> lfm: but how to generate the first block?
3288 2011-06-22 21:01:13 <vegard> gavinandresen: a few things puzzled me in bitcointools. TxOut.value is int64 (as opposed to uint64). and in the block index, time, bits, and nonce are also int32 (as opposed to uint32)
3289 2011-06-22 21:01:23 <xtalmath> i.e. to minimize dependencies?
3290 2011-06-22 21:01:36 <lfm> carli2: that is a bit more complex than I can describe here
3291 2011-06-22 21:01:52 <lfm> carli2: basicly it is a tree of hashes
3292 2011-06-22 21:02:05 <gavinandresen> vegard: probably bugs.  patches welcome....
3293 2011-06-22 21:02:11 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3294 2011-06-22 21:02:17 <carli2> lfm: why does the hash in the block never change? why does it always stay a small number?
3295 2011-06-22 21:02:32 <vegard> gavinandresen: k, will give it a try
3296 2011-06-22 21:03:06 <lfm> carli2: which hash in the block? the merkle hash should be a 256 bit random value, (not small at all)
3297 2011-06-22 21:04:13 <lfm> maybe small compared to the txns
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3300 2011-06-22 21:04:50 <carli2> lfm: afaiunderstand you generate a block_header which sha256(sha256()) is smaller than target. i fill in the fields with some value and hope that the hash of the block_header is small enough??
3301 2011-06-22 21:05:10 <lfm> carli2: if the block only has the one txn for the coinbase (50 btc) then the merkle hash is the hash of that txn only
3302 2011-06-22 21:05:10 earthmeLon has joined
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3305 2011-06-22 21:06:06 <lfm> carli2: ya, you fiddle the "nonce" generally to try to find a block with a good hash
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3307 2011-06-22 21:06:14 <carli2> lfm: but the merkle is only the merkle of the transaction block after the header? and the first transaction has to be 50 BTC?
3308 2011-06-22 21:06:33 <xtalmath> so bitcoin contains openssl and does not require libssl to be loaded?
3309 2011-06-22 21:06:44 <lfm> carli2: when you add other txn to the block you add them to the merkle tree
3310 2011-06-22 21:07:04 <lfm> xtalmath: it might be static linked
3311 2011-06-22 21:07:10 <carli2> lfm: but by changing the header, the checksum changes. maybe it gets bigger than the target. is that right?
3312 2011-06-22 21:07:27 <xtalmath> lfm: i just checked, its statically linked.
3313 2011-06-22 21:07:35 <lfm> the checksum is always 256 bits, never changes size
3314 2011-06-22 21:07:49 <carli2> lfm: i mean the value of the checksum
3315 2011-06-22 21:08:10 <lfm> ya the value should change every time a txn is added to it
3316 2011-06-22 21:08:24 <xtalmath> in theory somebody who compiles openssl lib could write a predictable randomgenerator, and statically link it into bitcoin, then distribute that?
3317 2011-06-22 21:08:45 <lfm> xtalmath: ya but that would be evil! grin
3318 2011-06-22 21:08:52 <carli2> lfm: but the first hash value should be less than target?
3319 2011-06-22 21:09:27 <lfm> carli2: the hash of the blocks is different from the merkle hash. the merkle hashes do not have to be smaller than the target
3320 2011-06-22 21:09:42 <xtalmath> since its statically linked the chances are high that you compiling bitcoin will give other subtle differences because we possibly have slightly different openssl version etc...
3321 2011-06-22 21:10:08 <xtalmath> so its hard for us to check if whoever compiled it didnt alter his openssl library
3322 2011-06-22 21:10:19 <lfm> xtalmath: possible I spoze. like maybe security patch updates and stuff mainly
3323 2011-06-22 21:11:08 <xtalmath> unless one writes an asm =>flowchart tool and compares the 2 graphs, matching topologically and then inspecting differences in topology and node codeblock content
3324 2011-06-22 21:11:27 <lfm> xtalmath: that is one reason why the paranoid amoung us actually look at the code (whatever we can handle) and compile and link it ourselves
3325 2011-06-22 21:11:29 Breign has left ()
3326 2011-06-22 21:11:36 <vegard> at that point, you're much better off just including openssl verbatim in the bitcoin repository
3327 2011-06-22 21:11:37 <carli2> lfm: to build a minimal miner, I put random values into version, timestamp and bits, fill prev_block with 0, fill merkle_root with a 50BTC transaction for me and start to change nonce? then i look if sha256(sha256(block_header)) is less than target and if not, retry with another nonce?
3328 2011-06-22 21:11:59 prax has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3329 2011-06-22 21:12:17 <lfm> carli2: prev block is only zero for the root (primeval) block number zero
3330 2011-06-22 21:12:20 d1234 has joined
3331 2011-06-22 21:12:30 <xtalmath> lfm: i completely agree that if you compile this attack is gone, but it would be nice for the smarter developers to have a tool so that we can point fingers at provably malicious statical links
3332 2011-06-22 21:13:22 <carli2> lfm: but when i generate millions of hashes and store them into prev, they cant be checked properly, right?
3333 2011-06-22 21:13:28 <lfm> xtalmath: it hasnt really come up. I expect the main avenues for that would be here in this chat and the forums
3334 2011-06-22 21:13:47 <xtalmath> if developers not noticing a malicious insertion, would result in a lot of users making trades for a while and nobody would like rollbacks
3335 2011-06-22 21:14:11 <lfm> carli2: no, you dont store the hash of your block in prev. you store the hash of the PREVIOUS block in prev
3336 2011-06-22 21:14:15 pusle has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3337 2011-06-22 21:14:59 <carli2> lfm: i want to create the root block, so i have to set pref=0
3338 2011-06-22 21:15:13 <lfm> the previous block should already have been checked for hash < target
3339 2011-06-22 21:15:18 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
3340 2011-06-22 21:15:20 <xtalmath> lfm: if openssl were dynamically linked: are there dangers? then its up to trust your distribution
3341 2011-06-22 21:15:30 <lfm> carli2: ya prev stays zero for root blcok
3342 2011-06-22 21:15:39 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
3343 2011-06-22 21:16:23 <lfm> xtalmath: the standard makefile only uses static so people with barebones linux instalations doesnt need to find and install those libs
3344 2011-06-22 21:16:37 <carli2> lfm: so when i have a block as described above with pref=0 and random timestamp etc. with a correctly merkled first transaction of 50 BTC, i win?
3345 2011-06-22 21:16:48 TheZimm has quit (Quit: When will we learn?)
3346 2011-06-22 21:17:13 <lfm> carli2: you have then started your own new currency.
3347 2011-06-22 21:17:26 seventoe is now known as seventoes
3348 2011-06-22 21:17:42 <xtalmath> so the only dynamic linked libraries lib gthread, pthread, z, and dl are assumed to be present on such barebones linux installations?
3349 2011-06-22 21:17:49 <carli2> lfm: so this means i earn the fee from its transactions?
3350 2011-06-22 21:17:56 <xtalmath> or were the criteria more size considerations?
3351 2011-06-22 21:18:03 <lfm> carli2: if you want to win bitcoins you need to get our block chain and try to find the next block in the chain using the hash of our latest block
3352 2011-06-22 21:18:36 <lfm> xtalmath: no size is not really a consideration
3353 2011-06-22 21:19:15 <carli2> lfm: where can i download the latest block?
3354 2011-06-22 21:19:49 <lfm> carli2: the usual answer is to run bitcoin (or bitcoind).
3355 2011-06-22 21:20:24 <lfm> carli2: note that we get new "latest block" every 10 minutes or so
3356 2011-06-22 21:20:57 <carli2> lfm: i know. that's the risk
3357 2011-06-22 21:21:09 <lfm> thats one risk ya
3358 2011-06-22 21:21:25 <carli2> but where in the gui do i see the latest block?
3359 2011-06-22 21:21:25 nranra has joined
3360 2011-06-22 21:22:09 <nranra> hey guys. is there a way to get the current block value (in BTC) from bitcoind?
3361 2011-06-22 21:22:26 <lfm> carli2: on the bottom line it says 132651 blocks, the latest block is number 132651
3362 2011-06-22 21:22:56 <xtalmath> why is libdl linked in? more libraries are linked plugin style?
3363 2011-06-22 21:23:15 <lfm> nranra: ya, its a getblock command of some sort I think
3364 2011-06-22 21:23:27 <freakazoid> xtalmath: it's so we can load malware onto your computer later
3365 2011-06-22 21:23:39 <xtalmath> mmkay
3366 2011-06-22 21:23:58 <lfm> xtalmath: libdl is a special lib that helps load the dll libs
3367 2011-06-22 21:24:06 <carli2> lfm: it's 82964, but changing rapidly. is that correct?
3368 2011-06-22 21:24:43 <lfm> carli2: correct if you have just started. it should settle down when it gets to 132651 or so
3369 2011-06-22 21:24:49 <xtalmath> lfm: dll libs not yet mentioned in -Bdynamic list?
3370 2011-06-22 21:25:11 <lfm> xtalmath: not sure exactly
3371 2011-06-22 21:25:54 TigerdriverX has left ()
3372 2011-06-22 21:26:36 <carli2> lfm: everyone is downloading all blocks?
3373 2011-06-22 21:26:44 <lfm> carli2: yup
3374 2011-06-22 21:26:50 <midnightmagic> amusing things happening in #mtgox
3375 2011-06-22 21:26:54 <xelister> guys
3376 2011-06-22 21:26:56 <xelister> LolSecurity is on #mtgox and took over that IRC channel
3377 2011-06-22 21:27:05 <xelister> midnightmagic: what the fuck are you doing people :o
3378 2011-06-22 21:27:20 <midnightmagic> huh?
3379 2011-06-22 21:27:28 * xelister gives up on any security expectations on anything realted to mtgox at all
3380 2011-06-22 21:27:38 <midnightmagic> definitely imagine <sarcasm> tags around my comment on it.
3381 2011-06-22 21:28:14 <lfm> it does seem mtgox has aquired a huge target on its back at least
3382 2011-06-22 21:28:23 <luke-jr> ;;bc,diff
3383 2011-06-22 21:28:24 <gribble> 877226.66666667
3384 2011-06-22 21:28:32 phearful has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3385 2011-06-22 21:28:42 notallhere has left ()
3386 2011-06-22 21:28:56 <midnightmagic> brutal man.. i so miss the old, old-school hackers. oh well.
3387 2011-06-22 21:29:00 <upb> 23 00:10 < xtalmath> unless one writes an asm =>flowchart tool and compares the 2 graphs <- there are tools to do that
3388 2011-06-22 21:29:03 <upb> bindiff etc
3389 2011-06-22 21:29:17 <upb> mostly used to re security updates tho
3390 2011-06-22 21:29:46 <D0han> IDA do that afair
3391 2011-06-22 21:29:57 <xtalmath> hmm I doubt bindiff can compare control flow of 2 codes
3392 2011-06-22 21:30:47 <lfm> well you could identify the ssl version and compare the codes to the standard reales perhaps
3393 2011-06-22 21:30:55 <xtalmath> yeah IDA can generate nice flowcharts, but can it compare flow charts automatically and "diff" the flowcharts ? graph isomorphism is not a trivial task
3394 2011-06-22 21:31:05 xxx3a has joined
3395 2011-06-22 21:31:31 <upb> xtalmath: thats exactly what its purpose is
3396 2011-06-22 21:32:27 <upb> iirc they use some heuristic methods to match functions first and then match basic blocks inside them
3397 2011-06-22 21:33:11 <WildSoil> what is the % how much difficulty will come ? how to calculate that ?
3398 2011-06-22 21:33:16 <bx_> Looking for solid skilled experienced devs willing to work for BTC and potential partnership in numerous large projects currently being developed. Please be mature . PM me, Thank you.
3399 2011-06-22 21:33:31 <lfm> WildSoil: try ;;bc,estimate
3400 2011-06-22 21:33:40 <upb> xtalmath: http://www.zynamics.com/bindiff.html
3401 2011-06-22 21:33:47 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
3402 2011-06-22 21:33:48 <gribble> 1346482.90229350
3403 2011-06-22 21:34:01 <lfm> is next estimated difficulty
3404 2011-06-22 21:34:24 <lfm> bx_: I prefer small projects
3405 2011-06-22 21:35:00 <bx_> lfm :p
3406 2011-06-22 21:35:24 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3407 2011-06-22 21:35:54 Nicksasa is now known as AnonOps
3408 2011-06-22 21:37:27 <Happy0> {"id":"andtest","method":"sendfrom","params":["Happy0","1CuSGYPBwzNPrBTANxQFnGw2zKWwG2t4Ke",0.00000100]}
3409 2011-06-22 21:37:30 <Happy0> it's me again :D
3410 2011-06-22 21:37:39 <Happy0> does anything look wrong with the above JSON-RPC call? :o
3411 2011-06-22 21:37:43 <lfm> oh boy!
3412 2011-06-22 21:38:56 <MrSam> :P
3413 2011-06-22 21:39:25 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3414 2011-06-22 21:39:41 <Happy0> bx_ you ruined your credibility when you called 'bitcoin' a company in #mtgox =p
3415 2011-06-22 21:40:07 <Happy0> [22:35:27] <bx_> LulzSecurity leave bitcoin alone go fuck with other companies
3416 2011-06-22 21:40:13 <Happy0> just joking, i understand what you meant =p
3417 2011-06-22 21:40:19 <lfm> we are a happy company or unrealted individulas
3418 2011-06-22 21:40:21 scott` has quit (Quit: scott`)
3419 2011-06-22 21:40:24 nranra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3420 2011-06-22 21:40:26 <Happy0> haha =p
3421 2011-06-22 21:40:29 <lfm> we are a happy company or unrelated individulas
3422 2011-06-22 21:41:08 <lfm> just call me typo
3423 2011-06-22 21:41:29 genjix has joined
3424 2011-06-22 21:41:55 genjix has left ()
3425 2011-06-22 21:41:57 Zusje has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3426 2011-06-22 21:42:03 AnonOps is now known as Nicksasa
3427 2011-06-22 21:42:22 <Happy0> woops, i realise what the error is in the JSON thingy above
3428 2011-06-22 21:42:29 <Happy0> i capitalised a letter in the address
3429 2011-06-22 21:42:33 <Happy0> that shouldn't be
3430 2011-06-22 21:43:00 <xelister> #mtgox - lolsecurity team is there now
3431 2011-06-22 21:43:09 <Happy0> alledgedly...
3432 2011-06-22 21:43:29 <lfm> they saying anything interesting?
3433 2011-06-22 21:43:31 <upb> thats something new
3434 2011-06-22 21:43:32 <Happy0> nah
3435 2011-06-22 21:43:35 <Happy0> nothing at all, really
3436 2011-06-22 21:43:41 <Happy0> i suspect it's an imposter =p
3437 2011-06-22 21:43:44 <lfm> feh
3438 2011-06-22 21:43:46 <upb> so the capabilities are not just sql injections and php holes
3439 2011-06-22 21:43:50 <upb> but also taking over irc channels
3440 2011-06-22 21:43:51 <upb> wow
3441 2011-06-22 21:44:05 <lfm> they must be 5 years old
3442 2011-06-22 21:44:57 LightRider has joined
3443 2011-06-22 21:45:51 flykoko2 has joined
3444 2011-06-22 21:45:53 <Happy0> haha
3445 2011-06-22 21:46:16 ericmock has quit (Quit: ericmock)
3446 2011-06-22 21:46:29 <WildSoil> "51% difficulty increase in 3 days" is this true ?
3447 2011-06-22 21:46:51 <lfm> WildSoil: est next difficulty: 1345867.65, in 1.80 days
3448 2011-06-22 21:47:34 <lfm> WildSoil: so ya, it is going up again, thats nothing new tho
3449 2011-06-22 21:47:41 lyspooner has joined
3450 2011-06-22 21:47:57 karnac has joined
3451 2011-06-22 21:48:33 Storagewars has joined
3452 2011-06-22 21:48:51 <lfm> see http:www3.telus.net/millerlf/hashes.png
3453 2011-06-22 21:48:54 proximiX has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3454 2011-06-22 21:49:05 <phantomcircuit> http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/hashes.png
3455 2011-06-22 21:49:46 <lfm> ya stupid // is so useless
3456 2011-06-22 21:50:05 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3457 2011-06-22 21:50:07 xtalmath has joined
3458 2011-06-22 21:50:21 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3459 2011-06-22 21:50:42 Sylph has joined
3460 2011-06-22 21:50:55 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3461 2011-06-22 21:51:15 E-sense has joined
3462 2011-06-22 21:51:20 <xtalmath> still trying to understand architecture of implementation, I see all .cpp files are compiled to .o objects except for the 3 json .cpp's?
3463 2011-06-22 21:51:35 abragin has quit ()
3464 2011-06-22 21:51:44 <carli2> lfm: can i compute the n+2nd block instead of the n+1th block or is it impossible?
3465 2011-06-22 21:51:50 <xtalmath> is json also compiled into bitcoin or only into bitcoind?
3466 2011-06-22 21:51:50 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3467 2011-06-22 21:52:08 <lfm> carli2: we already have second block, yours would be ignored
3468 2011-06-22 21:52:10 <xtalmath> carl2: you cant without knowing a valid n+1 block
3469 2011-06-22 21:52:17 <Happy0> xtalmath: i think you can run bitcoin.exe in daemon mode if you give it an argument when starting it
3470 2011-06-22 21:52:24 <Happy0> to use json with it
3471 2011-06-22 21:52:40 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3472 2011-06-22 21:52:42 <lfm> xtalmath: ya it is in both
3473 2011-06-22 21:52:44 <Happy0> also, i approve of your name :P
3474 2011-06-22 21:52:52 <lfm> Happy0: use -sever
3475 2011-06-22 21:52:53 <Happy0> xtal is a tune =p
3476 2011-06-22 21:53:01 <xtalmath> :)
3477 2011-06-22 21:53:03 <Happy0> lfm: that's the one i'm thinking of :)
3478 2011-06-22 21:53:11 <lfm> -server
3479 2011-06-22 21:53:19 <Happy0> ha
3480 2011-06-22 21:54:36 <xtalmath> i greped the bitcoin sources, and only .h headers of json are mentioned in bitcoins headers and cpps...
3481 2011-06-22 21:54:45 <lfm> carli2: oh n+2nd block is not possible till you have hash of n+1 block to make prev hash
3482 2011-06-22 21:54:51 <xtalmath> and the makefile doesnt compile the json cpps into .o s
3483 2011-06-22 21:56:23 <lfm> xtalmath: hmm is it a separate makefile?
3484 2011-06-22 21:56:32 <upb> why do you even bother, the linking and versions of libraries used arent probably even based on conscious decisions
3485 2011-06-22 21:56:43 <carli2> lfm: so i need to display the hash of n+1. how to?
3486 2011-06-22 21:56:58 <xtalmath> only rpc.cpp references json and only 3 of jsons headers: reader and writer templates and utils header
3487 2011-06-22 21:57:05 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3488 2011-06-22 21:57:07 <xtalmath> lfm: I dont see a seperate makefile for json
3489 2011-06-22 21:57:15 <lfm> carli2: fetch block n and hash it with sha256(sha256(header))
3490 2011-06-22 21:57:33 f33x has joined
3491 2011-06-22 21:58:15 <xtalmath> or is the berkely database compatible with json? i.e. including the json headers and then linking to libdb_cxx ?
3492 2011-06-22 21:58:28 <lfm> stuff the hash of block n in your candidate block n+1 and then start trying nonces tiill the hash of blk n+1 is < target
3493 2011-06-22 21:59:26 <lfm> carli2: if someone else comes up with n+1 before you then abort your search and build a candidate n+2
3494 2011-06-22 21:59:38 jlewis_ has quit (Changing host)
3495 2011-06-22 21:59:38 jlewis_ has joined
3496 2011-06-22 21:59:45 jlewis_ is now known as jlewis
3497 2011-06-22 22:00:05 <carli2> lfm: how to "fetch"? is it a service of bitcoind?
3498 2011-06-22 22:00:14 <lfm> ya, I think so
3499 2011-06-22 22:00:28 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3500 2011-06-22 22:00:28 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3501 2011-06-22 22:00:28 <carli2> -h dosent show me the possible commands
3502 2011-06-22 22:00:30 DukeOfURL has joined
3503 2011-06-22 22:00:48 <lfm> carli2: ya it is kinda undocumented I think
3504 2011-06-22 22:01:01 <lfm> carli2: not a command that regular users need
3505 2011-06-22 22:02:14 devrandom has quit (Quit: leaving)
3506 2011-06-22 22:03:05 <xtalmath> lfm: http://www.codeproject.com/KB/recipes/JSON_Spirit.aspx explained how including ..._template.h's allows you to compile the json spirit code into your project (never seen a library that can be composed of only .h eaders)
3507 2011-06-22 22:03:20 <xtalmath> without needing to link, magic
3508 2011-06-22 22:03:30 WakiMiko has quit (Quit: leaving)
3509 2011-06-22 22:03:33 amiller has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3510 2011-06-22 22:04:11 <lfm> xtalmath: oh ok thats c++ for ya
3511 2011-06-22 22:04:22 molecular has joined
3512 2011-06-22 22:04:29 <xtalmath> really pain in the ass to try and understand code that uses libraries using different conventions of linking and including
3513 2011-06-22 22:04:41 <xtalmath> lfm: true dat
3514 2011-06-22 22:05:37 <phantomcircuit> so...
3515 2011-06-22 22:05:52 <phantomcircuit> at some point in the future freenode is likely to crack down on all the bitcoin related channels
3516 2011-06-22 22:06:03 <phantomcircuit> since they dont all strictly follow channel policies
3517 2011-06-22 22:06:12 <xtalmath> such as?
3518 2011-06-22 22:06:12 <phantomcircuit> possibly there should be an irc.bitcoin.org server
3519 2011-06-22 22:06:38 <phantomcircuit> xtalmath, bitcoin-otc is a # channel, which is reserved for officially registered projects
3520 2011-06-22 22:07:01 <phantomcircuit> like i could start a bitcoin otc website using foss and get freenode to give me the registration for bitcoin-otc
3521 2011-06-22 22:08:15 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3522 2011-06-22 22:08:16 <lfm> freenode is already practiclly the irc.bitcoin.org
3523 2011-06-22 22:08:39 MC1984 has joined
3524 2011-06-22 22:08:40 <xtalmath> I would also prefer if bitcoin didnt use irc for bootstrapping, instead of hardcoding initial peers into code, cant we hardcode them into blockchain, so that except for initial download from then on you have a whole history of ips who promise to be online for supporting bitcoin
3525 2011-06-22 22:08:43 Ramokk has joined
3526 2011-06-22 22:08:54 <midnightmagic> xtalmath: You don't need IRC to bootstrap it.
3527 2011-06-22 22:08:56 <Happy0> haha, i don't have enough bitcoins to test out my 'sendfrom' RPC thingy ('cause apparently i don't have enough for a transaction fee... is there any more places like 'thefaucet' that i can get a small amount of bitcoins... like, i think even 0.001 would be enough)
3528 2011-06-22 22:09:01 <bx_> Looking for solid skilled experienced devs willing to work for BTC and potential partnership in numerous large web projects currently being developed. Please be mature . PM me, Thank you.
3529 2011-06-22 22:09:19 <lfm> xtalmath: you cant make people promise to be up really
3530 2011-06-22 22:09:20 <xtalmath> I know it doesnt need it, but what does it offer that we can not do otherwise?
3531 2011-06-22 22:09:58 <xtalmath> lfm: so you try another ip stored in blockchain, and miners verify that the ip was actually up right before generating block
3532 2011-06-22 22:10:05 <lfm> Happy0: if you move to testnet you can get testnet faucet coins
3533 2011-06-22 22:10:13 <Happy0> :o
3534 2011-06-22 22:10:20 <Happy0> :: googles 'testnet' ::
3535 2011-06-22 22:11:11 <lfm> xtalmath: if it works why get rid of it
3536 2011-06-22 22:11:14 <xtalmath> hell, average people could post their ip with a weekschedule (typically online between 4pm and 8pm UTC on weekdays..., set by user or detected by their own client)
3537 2011-06-22 22:11:15 abragin has joined
3538 2011-06-22 22:11:20 <carli2> is there a calculation how much blocks can be found at all?
3539 2011-06-22 22:11:31 <xtalmath> lfm: occam? guess your right in the end tho
3540 2011-06-22 22:11:31 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
3541 2011-06-22 22:11:32 <gribble> 132664
3542 2011-06-22 22:11:40 fredix has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
3543 2011-06-22 22:11:55 droning has quit (Quit: droning)
3544 2011-06-22 22:12:46 <lfm> carli2:  or you can do "bitcoind getblockcount"
3545 2011-06-22 22:13:14 TecnoBrat has quit (Quit: Bye!)
3546 2011-06-22 22:13:15 <Happy0> will do a derranged dance for 0.001 bitcoins, because i can't be bothered switching to testnet =p
3547 2011-06-22 22:13:23 <Happy0> *does derranged dance in the corner*
3548 2011-06-22 22:13:31 <Happy0> dah-dah-bah-ta-ta...
3549 2011-06-22 22:13:37 <lfm> Happy0: are you female?
3550 2011-06-22 22:13:38 <carli2> lfm: i mean the theoretical value of minable blocks. i heard its about 24 millions
3551 2011-06-22 22:13:44 <Happy0> lfm: i'm afraid not :P
3552 2011-06-22 22:14:08 <lfm> Happy0: harder for you to get paid for dancing then
3553 2011-06-22 22:14:12 <Happy0> awww =[
3554 2011-06-22 22:14:22 <Happy0> *continues derranged dancing in the corner*
3555 2011-06-22 22:15:06 <Happy0> *has a small coffee cub labelled "1Cdi5Y4AkxFYPM3kcjtDSggP3uCVQTbH5c" in front of him*
3556 2011-06-22 22:15:18 <Happy0> nah, you're right, i should just look into this testnet thing more
3557 2011-06-22 22:15:43 <lfm> carli2: I dont think thats quite right. there is limit on the "coinbase" coins you can mine they will total almost 21 million someday but you can still mine for "fees" after than
3558 2011-06-22 22:15:59 ericmock has joined
3559 2011-06-22 22:16:11 TecnoBrat has joined
3560 2011-06-22 22:16:26 <nuthin> Happy0: you should have qr-coded it
3561 2011-06-22 22:16:37 <Happy0> nuthin: pardon? :P
3562 2011-06-22 22:16:45 <carli2> lfm: what exactly is the fee and to which ID is it paid to?
3563 2011-06-22 22:16:47 <nuthin> "1Cdi5Y4AkxFYPM3kcjtDSggP3uCVQTbH5"
3564 2011-06-22 22:16:52 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: we already support DNS based bootstrapping.
3565 2011-06-22 22:16:53 <Happy0> what's a qr-code? :o
3566 2011-06-22 22:16:59 <nuthin> oh ...
3567 2011-06-22 22:17:05 <nuthin> like a barcode
3568 2011-06-22 22:17:11 <Happy0> i see! =o
3569 2011-06-22 22:17:24 <nuthin> http://www.google.no/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=qr-code
3570 2011-06-22 22:17:31 <lfm> carli2: fees are separate for each transaction and they go to the block that includes them
3571 2011-06-22 22:17:37 <Happy0> haha, wow
3572 2011-06-22 22:17:37 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: so thats also bitDNS compatible, great
3573 2011-06-22 22:17:40 <Happy0> nice one, nuthin
3574 2011-06-22 22:18:02 <nuthin> it's what the cool kids do :)
3575 2011-06-22 22:18:05 <carli2> lfm: so the ammount of money is growing all the time?
3576 2011-06-22 22:18:18 tandy80 has joined
3577 2011-06-22 22:18:20 WakiMiko has joined
3578 2011-06-22 22:18:21 <lfm> carli2: no the txn sender pays the fees
3579 2011-06-22 22:18:48 <nuthin> but yea, money is growing right now too
3580 2011-06-22 22:18:51 <xtalmath> carli: upside down roughly exponential decaying towards 21million btc
3581 2011-06-22 22:19:01 <lfm> carli2: but the total money is growing so long as the coinbase continues
3582 2011-06-22 22:19:08 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: at the moment there are just two domains hardcoded. If people could be expected to resolve .bit it would be reasonable to have one of those
3583 2011-06-22 22:20:00 <lfm> carli2: the fees are optional so far
3584 2011-06-22 22:20:16 ezl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3585 2011-06-22 22:21:00 <carli2> to whom do i send a transaction to? there must be sth like a central server that contains a list of all the peers
3586 2011-06-22 22:21:00 <xtalmath> how fast do ISPs have their clients use another IP? i.e. in a future we all have bitdns resolver (running local dns chain) and we can update our name-ip associations no faster than every 10minutes into the chain, ISPs could fuck us by assigning us a new IP every 10 minutes
3587 2011-06-22 22:21:21 <gmaxwell> carli2: there is no central server.
3588 2011-06-22 22:21:40 <xtalmath> ISP just has to monitor the dns chain and force normal users to use a different IP...
3589 2011-06-22 22:21:46 Soak has quit ()
3590 2011-06-22 22:21:47 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: if ISPs are "fucking with us" then its game over with the current p2p protocol.
3591 2011-06-22 22:21:49 Zusje has joined
3592 2011-06-22 22:21:50 <carli2> gmaxwell: i have 45 connections opened. from where do i know the IP addresses of the peers?
3593 2011-06-22 22:21:52 <xtalmath> ISP would assign them right when a new block came out
3594 2011-06-22 22:21:53 <lfm> xtalmath: dynamic IP might change several times in one day or it might be unchanged for years. depends on isp
3595 2011-06-22 22:22:05 <gmaxwell> carli2: you learn them from other peers.
3596 2011-06-22 22:22:19 <carli2> gmaxwell: and who is the first peer?
3597 2011-06-22 22:22:41 <gmaxwell> carli2: there are some hardcoded and it can also learn initial peers by connecting to an IRC server.
3598 2011-06-22 22:22:48 <gmaxwell> (or via DNS)
3599 2011-06-22 22:22:48 ar4s has joined
3600 2011-06-22 22:23:05 <gmaxwell> The DNS feature is new and not enabled by default yet.
3601 2011-06-22 22:23:05 <xtalmath> if ISPs are fucking with us by assigning new IPS on fast basis we can still use tor?
3602 2011-06-22 22:23:26 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: Not until bitcoin works better with tor.
3603 2011-06-22 22:23:35 <lfm> carli2: initial connects are gathered from several sources, 1) a special irc channel, 2) a hard coded list in the sources 3) command line options 4) after you connect to 1 good one you get a list from that one
3604 2011-06-22 22:23:36 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3605 2011-06-22 22:23:40 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: right now it doesn't really support peers behind onion addresses.
3606 2011-06-22 22:24:03 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
3607 2011-06-22 22:24:07 <xtalmath> would equivalent of IP adress in tor be hidden service onions? or does tor have its own "adress" mechanism besides the onions?
3608 2011-06-22 22:24:20 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: Yes, no.
3609 2011-06-22 22:24:53 <xtalmath> i.e. it is not possible to write a program that uses tors internal relaying system without ever passing an exit node?
3610 2011-06-22 22:24:55 <gmaxwell> There is a thing called onioncat that maps onion addresses into ipv6. I proposed on the forums that bitcoin begin using that.
3611 2011-06-22 22:24:58 AStove has quit ()
3612 2011-06-22 22:25:15 <carli2> my bitcoind says "can't connect to server", additional, when the bitcoin client is running, it cannot be executed, too
3613 2011-06-22 22:25:15 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: of course it's possible, you use hidden services for that.
3614 2011-06-22 22:25:23 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: I dont understand onioncat?
3615 2011-06-22 22:25:30 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3616 2011-06-22 22:25:40 <lfm> carli2: try "bitcoind help"
3617 2011-06-22 22:25:53 <carli2> error: couldn't connect to server
3618 2011-06-22 22:25:55 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: thats using the every client has its own .onion service setup?
3619 2011-06-22 22:25:56 <lfm> and use -server on the gui bitcoind run
3620 2011-06-22 22:26:19 <carli2> bitcoind help -server localhost
3621 2011-06-22 22:26:38 <lfm> carli2: no, when you start the gui use "bitcoin -server"
3622 2011-06-22 22:26:43 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: any client that ones one can have an onion address. You must configure it. There is a tor feature request for a API to allow programs to create hidden services without changing the config file, but it hasn't been done yet.
3623 2011-06-22 22:26:54 <xtalmath> i kind of like the .onion service as adress idea, since it cant be forged its based on public key, and you can build reliability on the p2p network
3624 2011-06-22 22:27:21 <freakazoid> xtalmath: I think that's a good place to start
3625 2011-06-22 22:27:26 <freakazoid> names based on public keys are a good idea
3626 2011-06-22 22:27:26 <carli2> learn from my mistakes what to write into the documentation ;)
3627 2011-06-22 22:27:32 <freakazoid> though TOR's implementation of it will not scale
3628 2011-06-22 22:27:33 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: i see, so users can configure an onion adress, but no API for software to do it.
3629 2011-06-22 22:27:44 <lfm> xtalmath: tor adds lag to net, causes some problems
3630 2011-06-22 22:27:55 <freakazoid> sure there's an API, just rewrite the config file and restart - you can do that programmatcially ;-)
3631 2011-06-22 22:27:55 <xtalmath> like unfair mining?
3632 2011-06-22 22:28:07 <gmaxwell> lfm: tor delays aren't too bad. It's subsecond almost all the time at least.
3633 2011-06-22 22:28:32 <lfm> gmaxwell: ok, sounds better than it used to be
3634 2011-06-22 22:28:38 <gmaxwell> Yea, they fixed a lot.
3635 2011-06-22 22:28:41 <xtalmath> yeah I also like tor speed, its just setting up the connection that takes a few seconds, but after that its fast
3636 2011-06-22 22:28:45 <Happy0> can you use paypal with bitcoinmarket.com? if so, is the site trust worthy? [i'
3637 2011-06-22 22:28:46 <Happy0> d
3638 2011-06-22 22:28:57 <Happy0> ask in the main channel, but i feel i know a few of you guys a little bit now :P]
3639 2011-06-22 22:29:05 <Happy0> and value your opinions more =p
3640 2011-06-22 22:29:17 <lfm> Happy0: many bitcoin users will tell you paypal is not trustworthy
3641 2011-06-22 22:29:31 <gmaxwell> In any case, the reason to have excellent tor support is not to actually _use it_, but to discourage anyone from trying to do anything stupid with the non-tor p2p network because the availablity of tor will moot their attack.
3642 2011-06-22 22:29:37 <Happy0> lfm: why's that? :o
3643 2011-06-22 22:30:12 <gmaxwell> (which also means that the tor stuff needs to be pre-enabled on many nodes, or the attacker can at least cause people to do the work of setting up and enabling tor)
3644 2011-06-22 22:30:15 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3645 2011-06-22 22:30:22 <lfm> Happy0: I think they were paypal merchants and scammers got paypal refunds when tyhey shouldnt have
3646 2011-06-22 22:30:23 dr_win has joined
3647 2011-06-22 22:30:34 <Happy0> ahhh right
3648 2011-06-22 22:30:43 TecnoBrat has quit (Quit: Bye!)
3649 2011-06-22 22:30:47 <Happy0> " Unlike MtGox, exchanges are done directly between individual users"
3650 2011-06-22 22:30:50 <Happy0> ahh, i see what you mean
3651 2011-06-22 22:30:54 <Happy0> hmm...
3652 2011-06-22 22:32:16 xxx3a has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3656 2011-06-22 22:32:56 <Happy0> how am i to get coins then... would any of you care for a blow job? :D
3657 2011-06-22 22:33:14 <freakazoid> wait what?
3658 2011-06-22 22:33:15 <gmaxwell> There are other things like that... like you ought to be able to specify bitcoin peers as 'trusted' and they'll be give priorty service (reserved connection slots, relaxed flood control, etc) and relaxed forwarding rules.
3659 2011-06-22 22:33:19 <carli2> Happy0: look at ebay
3660 2011-06-22 22:33:21 <Happy0> i should affirm my masculinity at this stage...
3661 2011-06-22 22:33:28 <Happy0> cali2: very good shout, actually
3662 2011-06-22 22:33:31 <Happy0> thanks :)
3663 2011-06-22 22:33:50 <carli2> but ebay coins are more expensive than on an exchange market
3664 2011-06-22 22:34:08 <Happy0> gmaxwell: thanks :)... i'm used to the ebay feedback system, so that might be the best option
3665 2011-06-22 22:34:09 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: are peers authenticated?
3666 2011-06-22 22:34:30 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: no.
3667 2011-06-22 22:34:39 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: there hasn't needed to be one.
3668 2011-06-22 22:34:57 <freakazoid> seems like now there's a need :)
3669 2011-06-22 22:35:02 <gmaxwell> Why?
3670 2011-06-22 22:35:19 <gmaxwell> Well, not a pratical need at this time, but for what I suggested.. sure.
3671 2011-06-22 22:35:29 <Happy0> i see what you mean about the prices on ebay :|
3672 2011-06-22 22:35:30 <Happy0> ouch
3673 2011-06-22 22:35:47 <Happy0> somebody's doing 5 bitcoins for 110 pounds... what a rip off
3674 2011-06-22 22:36:09 <Happy0> lmao somebody's trying to sell a domain name
3675 2011-06-22 22:36:13 TecnoBrat has joined
3676 2011-06-22 22:36:16 <Happy0> 'btcdec.com' for 15,000 pounds
3677 2011-06-22 22:36:16 <gmaxwell> We also ought to give priority to peers that we connected to vs peers that connected to us. This has some positive anti-DOS properties (bad guys can choose to connect to us, but can't choose who we connect to) plus it would act as an objective incentive to open your port.
3678 2011-06-22 22:36:24 <xtalmath> i am thinking of a fork, that does include tax, which can only be spent through a democracy maintained proportional to btc amount. the democracy holds topcoder like tasks and awards the best solutions and implementations. bitcoin is not completely tax free, miners are rewarded with fees, other things are not rewarded like providing blocks,...
3679 2011-06-22 22:36:27 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I've been thinking a lot about the concept of node keys for p2p networks to distinguish running instances of the software from users
3680 2011-06-22 22:36:36 <freakazoid> bitcoin has no concept of users yet - only accounts
3681 2011-06-22 22:36:52 <gmaxwell> bitcoin doesn't have accounts either.
3682 2011-06-22 22:36:59 <sipa> it has addresses
3683 2011-06-22 22:37:05 <gmaxwell> (accounts are a local concept)
3684 2011-06-22 22:37:05 <freakazoid> well, that's what I mean by accounts
3685 2011-06-22 22:37:16 <freakazoid> ah, ok, so that would be confusing terminology for me to use
3686 2011-06-22 22:37:18 <freakazoid> addresses
3687 2011-06-22 22:37:22 <freakazoid> still, no users
3688 2011-06-22 22:37:30 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: how do you define difference between account and adress?
3689 2011-06-22 22:37:53 amiller has joined
3690 2011-06-22 22:37:59 <gmaxwell> Accounts are just there to help with bookkeeping in the client. They arn't part of the bitcoin system.
3691 2011-06-22 22:38:16 <lfm> freakazoid: annonymous money doesnt really attach itself to users
3692 2011-06-22 22:38:19 <gmaxwell> Addresses are (stand-ins for) public keys that recieve bitcoin.
3693 2011-06-22 22:38:38 <freakazoid> lfm: yeah, I wasn't saying it needed them, but they make sense in some p2p systems
3694 2011-06-22 22:38:46 <freakazoid> at least pseudonyms tdo
3695 2011-06-22 22:38:47 <freakazoid> do
3696 2011-06-22 22:38:51 <gmaxwell> What lfm said, the bitcoin privacy model depends on the general absense of users for privacy.
3697 2011-06-22 22:39:04 quellhorst has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3698 2011-06-22 22:39:34 <xtalmath> also I was thinking about using chaumian mixnets for very good anonymization, a la helios auditable voting
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3702 2011-06-22 22:40:29 <freakazoid> I didn't realize Chaum invented mixes as well
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3704 2011-06-22 22:40:34 <lfm> freakazoid: I spoze its kinda touchy topic, if the option for names is there then someone will try to demand people use em for things
3705 2011-06-22 22:40:40 <xtalmath> a fork that has its own blockchain and can see the bitcoin blockchain can reliably trade btc for its own coins
3706 2011-06-22 22:41:10 TecnoBrat has joined
3707 2011-06-22 22:41:12 <freakazoid> lfm: yeah, the whole anonymity/pseudonymity/identity thing is a very touchy subject everywhere on the internet
3708 2011-06-22 22:41:46 <lfm> xtalmath: ya, its no different from any other currency exchange then
3709 2011-06-22 22:42:03 <xtalmath> call the fork chain F: F clients read BTC chain and maintain their F chain, in the F chain people can post bids and asks, and people can agree to bids and asks all with F chain block numbers as deadlines for the offer
3710 2011-06-22 22:42:23 <gmaxwell> Well, pseudonymity thing in bitcoin isn't just a cipherpunk orgy thing, it's actually quite important because its the only thing providing any privacy at all.
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3713 2011-06-22 22:42:48 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: an excellent point
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3715 2011-06-22 22:43:15 <xtalmath> lfm: if BTC werent sent every F client agrees the coins still belong to original holder, if BTC were sent every F client agrees the old owner of F coins doesnt own the F coins
3716 2011-06-22 22:43:19 <lfm> if you want to tie money to people you might just as well use some other currency
3717 2011-06-22 22:43:32 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: the government would get around that with mandatory reporting of mappings from address to user
3718 2011-06-22 22:43:39 <xtalmath> but we can enjoy much enhanced privacy through chaumian mixnets
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3720 2011-06-22 22:44:29 <gmaxwell> I also personally think it's the right level of privacy, it's strong enough to dissuade your snoopy neighbors but not so strong that it makes the public completely impotent against badguys. (besides, anything strong implies other serious compromises)
3721 2011-06-22 22:44:36 <lfm> freakazoid: the government generally just demands you pay taxes using their currency
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3723 2011-06-22 22:44:53 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: if the state wants you to do things— it will. It's very powerful, and nothing we can do will change that.
3724 2011-06-22 22:44:56 <freakazoid> lfm: yeah, assuming they don't decide bitcoin is a threat
3725 2011-06-22 22:45:08 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I don't believe that
3726 2011-06-22 22:45:21 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: reducing concentration of power is my purpose in life
3727 2011-06-22 22:45:36 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: reducing the ability of power to concentrate in the first place, in fact.
3728 2011-06-22 22:45:39 <lfm> freakazoid: I expect the threat of bitcoins to governemnts has been overblown already
3729 2011-06-22 22:46:10 <freakazoid> lfm: well, politicians don't tend to let facts get in the way of action.
3730 2011-06-22 22:46:19 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: sure, we can dillute the state's power by depending on it less.  But ultimately large public systems (like bitcoin) can't exist outside of the state's influence.
3731 2011-06-22 22:46:35 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: not entirely outside, though
3732 2011-06-22 22:46:37 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: err no
3733 2011-06-22 22:46:40 <freakazoid> too much fucking caffeine
3734 2011-06-22 22:47:09 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: eh, well bitcoin is helpful to the state anyways— in the same way that functioning roads and internet is helpful to thestate. It makes people more prosperous.
3735 2011-06-22 22:47:18 <lfm> resistance is futile. adjust to the new bitcoin paradyme or die!
3736 2011-06-22 22:47:32 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: the state tends to be afraid of things it doesn't understand, though
3737 2011-06-22 22:47:44 <gmaxwell> s/the state/people/
3738 2011-06-22 22:47:48 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: indeed.
3739 2011-06-22 22:47:54 WakiMiko_ has joined
3740 2011-06-22 22:47:57 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: ideally the state is just an extension of the people
3741 2011-06-22 22:48:10 <enquirer> why be megalomaniacs, if bitcoin could reduce western union robbery, that alone would be huge
3742 2011-06-22 22:48:17 <gmaxwell> But we'll educate them. One positive aspect of bitcoin is that there are people who are deeply interested in bitcoin's success. (anyone who has a bunch of bitcoin)
3743 2011-06-22 22:48:19 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: so not only would I like to decrease the ability of power to concentrate, I'd like to decrease the ability of people to mind one anothers' business generally
3744 2011-06-22 22:48:34 <lfm> enquirer: hehe
3745 2011-06-22 22:48:46 <gmaxwell> If the early adopters are not morons they will invest in the sucess of bitcoin by making sure the state (and everyone else) is properly educated.
3746 2011-06-22 22:49:12 <freakazoid> a lot of smart people in history have thought they could ignore the state
3747 2011-06-22 22:49:15 <lfm> freakazoid: good luck with that! hehe
3748 2011-06-22 22:49:17 <freakazoid> one doesn't need to be a moron to make that mistake
3749 2011-06-22 22:49:23 <enquirer> disclosure: just paid $100 to transfer $2000 :((
3750 2011-06-22 22:49:26 <xtalmath> see slides 97-122 of http://saweis.net/pdfs/adida191207.pdf
3751 2011-06-22 22:49:39 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: well, bitcoin hurts and advances that cause. It weakens the peak ability for third parties to mind your interests (think Visa an the state) but probably gives your family and neighbors a bit more.
3752 2011-06-22 22:49:43 WakiMiko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3753 2011-06-22 22:49:46 <xtalmath> and ask me references for chaums papers
3754 2011-06-22 22:50:04 WakiMiko_ is now known as WakiMiko
3755 2011-06-22 22:50:26 <gmaxwell> s/an the/and the/
3756 2011-06-22 22:50:27 <xtalmath> the shuffling verification in the helios implementation (python) did take them 3 hours though :S
3757 2011-06-22 22:50:35 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: YOu mean because they're more likely to know my bitcoin addresses?
3758 2011-06-22 22:50:49 <freakazoid> I actually think that Ripple is the "currency" of the future
3759 2011-06-22 22:50:56 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: they'll know some of you bitcoin addresses, so they'll be able to connect txn related to those addresses to you.
3760 2011-06-22 22:51:04 <freakazoid> though it's not technically a currency, it can accomplish the things I think are important about Bitcoin
3761 2011-06-22 22:51:29 <xtalmath> I guess only laundrers are willing to wait 3+ hours interval blockchain
3762 2011-06-22 22:51:35 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: true, though I can launder money more easily than I can with my visa card with my wife watching Mint and asking me about porn sites I subscribe to
3763 2011-06-22 22:52:03 hereforfun has joined
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3765 2011-06-22 22:52:53 <gmaxwell> I'm very skeptical of ripple and ripple like things. Trustnets are super vulnerable to sybil attacks. They're also vulnerable to varrious political attacks. E.g. your community can decide they don't like you (becaus you're gay) and suddenly your money is no good anymore. That can already happen, but it requires a lot of coordination which doesn't exist and isn't worth creating, but trust network systems provide a nice means for it.
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3767 2011-06-22 22:53:21 <xtalmath> that was for 500 votes on a 2 question survey and I think 3 trustees, not sure how these things scale with voters and questions so cant say if it is feasible with say
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3769 2011-06-22 22:53:58 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Right, different systems different risks. I generally think that I'd rather have my negibors snooping on me a little more but visa snooping on me a lot less. Of course, systems like visa will continue to exist in a bitcoin heavy future, just like cash continues to exist in a visa heavy today.
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3771 2011-06-22 22:54:01 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: Ripple doesnt' require anyone who doesn't trust you to accept your IOUs in order to function
3772 2011-06-22 22:54:39 <freakazoid> Also I don't see how it's in any way vulnerable to a Sybil attack - trust isn't transitive in Ripple
3773 2011-06-22 22:54:49 <freakazoid> you never have to accept an IOU from someone you don't know
3774 2011-06-22 22:55:19 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Ah. I don't need ripple then to accept IOUs from people I know. I just accept the IOU. :)
3775 2011-06-22 22:55:25 <freakazoid> Ripple works by finding paths through the web of trust. THAT, IMO, is its weakness - you can't have a transaction entirely within Ripple if there's no path
3776 2011-06-22 22:55:33 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: the point of Ripple is it finds the paths
3777 2011-06-22 22:55:36 <gmaxwell> (I thought ripple did automatic IOU mediation)
3778 2011-06-22 22:55:50 <freakazoid> It does, but that doesn't mean you accept IOUs of people you don't know
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3782 2011-06-22 22:57:31 <freakazoid> to me the goal of Ripple is to maximize the use of credit that people already have with one another
3783 2011-06-22 22:58:10 <freakazoid> it's fine for me to take IOUs from my sister, but it would be hard without something like Ripple for a friend of my sister's to buy something from a friend of mine using IOUs
3784 2011-06-22 22:58:13 <gmaxwell> Hm... sybil tricks bob into thinking she is multiple people, bob isn't that careful because bob doesn't do high value exchanges, and he extends at least one IOU to everyone, then bob gets screwed when you go and buy a bunch of cars based on your bob trust.
3785 2011-06-22 22:58:36 <midnightmagic> what happens when someone calls an IOU?
3786 2011-06-22 22:58:41 <midnightmagic> that path disappears or something?
3787 2011-06-22 22:58:53 <gmaxwell> To whatever extent the system resists that (by being stingy with trust) it's more vulnerable people being unfairly shunned.
3788 2011-06-22 22:58:53 <freakazoid> The account balance goes away
3789 2011-06-22 22:59:34 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: Ah, so it relies on Bob assuming the risk is uncorrelated
3790 2011-06-22 22:59:45 <midnightmagic> so i would have to be careful that I didn't yank an IOU which I depended on to "buy" something from someone else. (That is, my IOU total can't be brought less than my active balance with other people?)
3791 2011-06-22 22:59:54 <freakazoid> since only Bob can be screwed, I don't really see how that's a problem
3792 2011-06-22 23:00:10 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3793 2011-06-22 23:00:19 <midnightmagic> or does someone else's IOU not actually contribute to the balance I have between me and other people?
3794 2011-06-22 23:00:20 <freakazoid> also if you're extending credit to people you don't know in real life, you're not very smart and probably SHOULD have all your money stolen.
3795 2011-06-22 23:00:27 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Righ! and if bob is very stingy with handing out trust, then when your system and your cousin decide they hate you because you wouldn't go and date sue, then you're screwed because it's hard to get someone new to trust you.
3796 2011-06-22 23:00:28 topace has joined
3797 2011-06-22 23:00:36 <bx_> Looking for solid skilled experienced devs willing to work for BTC and potential partnership in numerous large web projects currently being developed. Please be mature . PM me, Thank you.
3798 2011-06-22 23:00:50 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: yeah, that is the part that most concerns me
3799 2011-06-22 23:01:01 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: but you can always fall back on a bank
3800 2011-06-22 23:01:19 <freakazoid> I see Ripple as just being built on real-world trust relationships that already exist, maximizing the use of them
3801 2011-06-22 23:01:43 <freakazoid> People who can build larger webs of trust will benefit more than people who can't.
3802 2011-06-22 23:01:52 <freakazoid> I have trouble being overly concerned about that.
3803 2011-06-22 23:02:12 hereforfun has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3808 2011-06-22 23:08:08 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Well, I am. I'm a kinda introverted guy and I already resent the significant social leverage that unrepentant ass-kisser extroverts have over me, and I wouldn't look forward to that power being cemented by some probably kafkaesque electronic system.
3809 2011-06-22 23:08:08 <lfm> [bc,blocks] * 50 + 50
3810 2011-06-22 23:08:09 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3811 2011-06-22 23:08:31 <lfm> ;; calc [bc,blocks] * 50 + 50
3812 2011-06-22 23:08:32 <gribble> (132,671 * 50) + 50 = 6,633,600
3813 2011-06-22 23:08:41 <midnightmagic> don't seem that introverted to me.
3814 2011-06-22 23:08:43 <lfm> cool number
3815 2011-06-22 23:08:43 kermit has joined
3816 2011-06-22 23:08:52 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I think you underestimate the amount you impress others
3817 2011-06-22 23:08:59 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Fundimentally privacy is the freedom to be let alone. I generally view trust networks as opposed to that.
3818 2011-06-22 23:09:08 <freakazoid> Interesting
3819 2011-06-22 23:09:10 <gmaxwell> Well I play an extrovert on IRC. And at work. :)
3820 2011-06-22 23:09:30 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: the problem is that the alternative to trust networks is a system where we're all forced to trust
3821 2011-06-22 23:09:38 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: which creates significant moral hazards
3822 2011-06-22 23:10:04 <freakazoid> for example, I trusted a bunch of bankers to do their due diligence when giving out mortgages
3823 2011-06-22 23:10:09 <gmaxwell> But really, I'm not fond of politics and I frequently disengage from arguments when reputation starts factoring in— I'd rather just go code/invent whatever on my own.
3824 2011-06-22 23:10:10 <freakazoid> and I trusted people not to buy houses they couldn't afforc.
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3826 2011-06-22 23:10:23 <Happy0> lfm: see when i run bitcoind in testnet mode, and use getinfo... it's my (miniscule) balance from my production madness... is that right?
3827 2011-06-22 23:10:30 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: you're just putting your head in the sand then
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3829 2011-06-22 23:10:44 <nuthin> you sound like a great guy gmaxwell
3830 2011-06-22 23:10:44 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: it's a choice.
3831 2011-06-22 23:10:46 <nuthin> no homo
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3835 2011-06-22 23:11:08 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: you're afraid people wouldn't trust you, so you decide on a system in which people are forced to trust people they don't even know, and pay for those people's mistakes and crimes
3836 2011-06-22 23:11:17 <lfm> Happy0: when you first run testnet your balance should be zero
3837 2011-06-22 23:11:43 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: No, I value the freedom that comes from the diversity of informal trust systems.
3838 2011-06-22 23:11:44 <nuthin> so who's going to roskilde?
3839 2011-06-22 23:12:11 <Happy0> lfm: i did: ./bitcoind -testnet -daemon
3840 2011-06-22 23:12:15 agricocb has joined
3841 2011-06-22 23:12:18 <Happy0> can i now just call it as normal?
3842 2011-06-22 23:12:40 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: why would you do better in a diversity of informal trust systems than in a formalized one based on sound principles?
3843 2011-06-22 23:12:45 <nuthin> Happy0: I'm going to guess: yes
3844 2011-06-22 23:12:49 <Happy0> haha
3845 2011-06-22 23:12:54 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: it almost sounds like you prefer a system that is not measurable
3846 2011-06-22 23:13:05 <freakazoid> like you don't actually want to know who really trusts you
3847 2011-06-22 23:13:18 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: because when a "formalized one based on sound principles" screws me, I can forum shop more easily and choose compromises which suit my needs.
3848 2011-06-22 23:13:24 <nuthin> what are we talking about here?
3849 2011-06-22 23:13:31 <lfm> you can never know who really trusts you
3850 2011-06-22 23:13:46 <nuthin> I don't really trust anyone
3851 2011-06-22 23:13:53 <nuthin> ẗhey're all out to get me
3852 2011-06-22 23:14:31 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: IOW when you alienate a group of people you run away and find another one that doesn't know you yet.
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3854 2011-06-22 23:15:07 <freakazoid> I know a girl like that. Decides she's fucked up too much with a given group and then runs away. Turns out she's never pissed people off nearly as much as she thinks she has.
3855 2011-06-22 23:15:11 <xtalmath> perhaps hosting an LXR of bitcoin would help a lot of newcoming developers? example http://lxr.linux.no/#linux-old+v2.4.31/drivers/atm/ambassador.c#L1296
3856 2011-06-22 23:15:12 <gmaxwell> E.g. I have a poor credit score, even though I've _never_ been late on a bill— because I've consciously chosen to not take debt. So that formalized system screws me by ranking me as uncredit worthy (even though there are many reasons to find me credit worthy). Fortunately I can opt out of dealing with that system (by e.g. securing funding in other ways).
3857 2011-06-22 23:15:25 <freakazoid> eh, credit scores are crap
3858 2011-06-22 23:15:32 <freakazoid> and they're not based on a web of trust
3859 2011-06-22 23:15:36 <gmaxwell> Though this freedom may be infringed in the future e.g. by employers checking credit scores.
3860 2011-06-22 23:15:41 carli2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3861 2011-06-22 23:15:50 <freakazoid> with Ripple the web of trust is always rooted with the person looking at the syste
3862 2011-06-22 23:15:51 <nuthin> that's special for the US I think
3863 2011-06-22 23:15:57 <freakazoid> which just mirrors real life
3864 2011-06-22 23:15:59 <gmaxwell> No, but it's a formal trust system— and moreover when it's wrong I even have legal recourse. So the centralization is actually an asset.
3865 2011-06-22 23:16:06 <freakazoid> if I meet a stranger and I want to know about them, I ask my friends
3866 2011-06-22 23:16:07 <nuthin> in .no you don't need credit cards or whatever to become credit worthy
3867 2011-06-22 23:16:31 <freakazoid> true, you have no legal recourse against me telling my friend I think you're an asshole
3868 2011-06-22 23:16:36 <freakazoid> but that already exists
3869 2011-06-22 23:16:47 <freakazoid> being able to capitalize on the fact that I think you're smart isn't a bad thing
3870 2011-06-22 23:16:48 <gmaxwell> If the nearby web of trust screws me because say, I won't go to their church, and claims me to be uncredit worthy I'd have less recourse.
3871 2011-06-22 23:16:50 <nuthin> what are you guys really talking about?
3872 2011-06-22 23:17:05 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: at least you can move in that case.
3873 2011-06-22 23:17:25 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: also, market forces would always provide some way to borrow if you needed to
3874 2011-06-22 23:17:28 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Right, that already exists but it's irrelevant because you thinking I'm an asshole has very little power over me.
3875 2011-06-22 23:17:38 <nuthin> whatever ..
3876 2011-06-22 23:17:40 <freakazoid> assuming there isn't forcible intervention to prevent competition in the lending space
3877 2011-06-22 23:17:50 gruez has joined
3878 2011-06-22 23:17:54 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: it would have very little power in Ripple too
3879 2011-06-22 23:17:57 vinsci has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3880 2011-06-22 23:18:03 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: it means I wouldn't personally make loans to you
3881 2011-06-22 23:18:34 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: (and fwiw, I don't throw away identities, but I'm happy to have the freedom to do so if I felt doing so was worthwhile)
3882 2011-06-22 23:18:36 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: if you couldn't find anyone you could convince to give you credit, yes, you'd be screwed in Ripple. However, that's also true now if you can't find banks to lend to you
3883 2011-06-22 23:19:15 <freakazoid> there is no reason your lack of credit with people in Ripple should be known to anyone else
3884 2011-06-22 23:20:01 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: Well not so, because now people aren't expected to depend on credit very much. I have a poor credit score because I've never been in debt beyond things like pay-after contracts.
3885 2011-06-22 23:20:36 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: so when I think about systems like ripple I think about them mediating a larger number of interactions, effectively network-effect forcing me to deal in credit of varrious kinds.
3886 2011-06-22 23:20:50 vinsci has joined
3887 2011-06-22 23:20:54 <freakazoid> Ripple is just an alternative to banks for credit, really. There is nothing saying you can't maintain a positive balance in it.
3888 2011-06-22 23:21:25 <freakazoid> So it gives you precisely the same alternative to being in debt that the current system does - don't go into debt
3889 2011-06-22 23:21:31 k^^ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
3890 2011-06-22 23:21:35 <freakazoid> you can be a creditor in the system rather than a debtor
3891 2011-06-22 23:21:50 quellhorst has joined
3892 2011-06-22 23:22:01 <nuthin> you have no debt gmaxwell ? what about student loans etc.?
3893 2011-06-22 23:22:07 <gruez> kind of a noob question
3894 2011-06-22 23:22:12 <gruez> WHY IS BITCOIN SO HARD TO BUILD?
3895 2011-06-22 23:22:14 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3896 2011-06-22 23:22:16 <freakazoid> haha
3897 2011-06-22 23:22:19 <gruez> i want some sort of visual studio solution
3898 2011-06-22 23:22:21 <freakazoid> to keep noobs away
3899 2011-06-22 23:22:24 <gruez> press f7 -> build for me
3900 2011-06-22 23:22:27 <freakazoid> because you will lose your shirt
3901 2011-06-22 23:22:36 <freakazoid> just from running the software
3902 2011-06-22 23:22:39 oozyburglar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3903 2011-06-22 23:22:39 <gruez> ?
3904 2011-06-22 23:22:44 <freakazoid> and the russian mafia will show up at your house
3905 2011-06-22 23:22:59 <gmaxwell> nuthin: No, nuthin.
3906 2011-06-22 23:23:05 <gruez> how do i use makefile.vc?
3907 2011-06-22 23:23:10 <gruez> does it even work?
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3910 2011-06-22 23:23:46 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: I expected people to use ripple e.g. to exchange trust for access to forums and such too.  Inevitably making credit easier will make it more essential. "oh it's not like you have to pay people to access! you just have to have trust extended!"
3911 2011-06-22 23:24:33 meelu has joined
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3916 2011-06-22 23:25:05 <gmaxwell> 90% percent of the time when I post to some forum it's just to provide a single relevent piece of information for the benefit of the residents, so asking for trust (because you don't like coping with trolls and socks) will ultimately mean that I won't participate because I don't want to fuss with maintaining a trust network just to do everyone else a favor.
3917 2011-06-22 23:25:39 <freakazoid> seems like if that's what you do you wouldn't have any problem building said trust network
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3919 2011-06-22 23:26:57 <freakazoid> I hadn't thought about using Ripple for that purpose, since it's credit, not trust, but I can imagine the usefulness of a distributed web of trust that allowed various sorts of signed claims about others
3920 2011-06-22 23:27:16 <gmaxwell> Yes, but then I'd own something of worth which I'd then worry about screwing up.  "Your possessions own you" ::shrugs::
3921 2011-06-22 23:27:17 <freakazoid> Certainly better to have a distributed system like that than to let, say, Facebook do it, though
3922 2011-06-22 23:27:28 <gmaxwell> Yes. Well, I don't use facebook either!
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3924 2011-06-22 23:27:33 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: Hmm, at some point this becomes a flaw in you and not a flaw in the system ;-)
3925 2011-06-22 23:27:55 ezl_ has joined
3926 2011-06-22 23:28:17 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, but I should be free to have flaws— and it's naturual that I should oppose systems which make my flaws more burdensom!
3927 2011-06-22 23:28:18 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: It sounds like you'd be saying the same thing if I were saying human beings should have relationships and sex if we were all starting out as a bunch of loaners.
3928 2011-06-22 23:28:21 <freakazoid> loners
3929 2011-06-22 23:28:23 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3930 2011-06-22 23:28:56 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: or suggesting families instead of our current system of reproducing via Brave New World methods
3931 2011-06-22 23:29:14 <gmaxwell> I think I'm not really opposed to trust, I'm opposed to the machine mediation of trust beause I'm convinced that it will always turn out kafkaesque.
3932 2011-06-22 23:30:11 <freakazoid> I agree that would suck
3933 2011-06-22 23:30:52 <gmaxwell> And that generally negotiating trust is an ai-complete problem, and that you can get approximate solutions which are good enough 90% of the time and are complete shit 1% of the time. And I think the complete shit results are potentially bad enough that I'd prefer we skip the advantage in the 90% cases.
3934 2011-06-22 23:30:55 <freakazoid> The reason I want to build a web-of-trust based system rooted in the individual is because I think systems like Amazon's and Yelp's rating systems are already about as kafkaesque as you can get and I'd like to show the world that they can be substantially improved upon
3935 2011-06-22 23:31:14 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: explain
3936 2011-06-22 23:31:22 <gmaxwell> Yes, the current automated systems are kafkaesque.
3937 2011-06-22 23:31:34 <freakazoid> I wouldn't want to try to do anything beyond reflecting pre-existing real-world trust networks
3938 2011-06-22 23:31:50 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: e.g. after knowing you some I might trust you for some things and not other things. The nature of that trust is highly context sensitive.
3939 2011-06-22 23:31:51 fmetro has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
3940 2011-06-22 23:32:02 <freakazoid> Ohhh, yes that's true.
3941 2011-06-22 23:32:08 <freakazoid> Like my cleaning lady.
3942 2011-06-22 23:32:17 <freakazoid> I trust her not to steal from me but I don't trust her judgement of other people.
3943 2011-06-22 23:32:41 <freakazoid> Not to steal from me or break my shit
3944 2011-06-22 23:32:58 <gmaxwell> even if I could export my understanding, I don't think any agent less smart than me could make decisions based on it. And ... transitive trust is even harder, e.g. if someone asks me if they should trust someone for something even I have a hard time deciding. My agent would have no hope.
3945 2011-06-22 23:33:03 <freakazoid> Well, that's why Ripple is good for: it's not context-sensitive
3946 2011-06-22 23:33:10 <freakazoid> it's a very specific kind of trust
3947 2011-06-22 23:33:23 <freakazoid> specifically, how much money you'd be willing to loan to a person at what interest rate
3948 2011-06-22 23:33:41 <gmaxwell> Trust is always context-sensitive. All you'll do is force things which _should_ be context sensitive into a non-context sensitive modality in order to use the easy system.
3949 2011-06-22 23:33:53 <gmaxwell> E.g. I will loan you money differently depending on how you plan on spending it.
3950 2011-06-22 23:34:00 Lambdanaut has joined
3951 2011-06-22 23:34:01 <freakazoid> You shouldn't.
3952 2011-06-22 23:34:13 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
3953 2011-06-22 23:34:13 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3954 2011-06-22 23:34:14 <gmaxwell> I might loan you money to buy a house, but not to gamble because my trust in your repayment is conditional.
3955 2011-06-22 23:34:53 <gmaxwell> Even without a formal script securing the loan for the house. I simply trust that you'll be more responsible in that repayment.
3956 2011-06-22 23:35:03 <freakazoid> that doesnt' make sense to me
3957 2011-06-22 23:35:13 <freakazoid> if I gamble, you shouldn't loan me money for *any* purpose.
3958 2011-06-22 23:35:23 <gmaxwell> Well, yes, I picked an extreme there. :)
3959 2011-06-22 23:35:26 Tick-Tock has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3960 2011-06-22 23:35:40 <freakazoid> I don't think that really makes sense
3961 2011-06-22 23:35:51 <freakazoid> an unsecured loan is an unsecured loan. Purpose is irrelevant from a risk standpoint
3962 2011-06-22 23:35:59 <gmaxwell> or better, I'd loan you money to buy a house but not to go skydiving.
3963 2011-06-22 23:36:26 <freakazoid> haha
3964 2011-06-22 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> Not because I have any moral judgement on skydiving, but because I can run the odds and say that one loan is more likely to get repaid than the other!
3965 2011-06-22 23:36:42 <gmaxwell> Even if they are both unsecured.
3966 2011-06-22 23:37:02 <freakazoid> Except that if I skydive, it does't matter whether you were the one who loaned me the money
3967 2011-06-22 23:37:12 <freakazoid> I could borrow money from you for a house and then someone else for the skydiving
3968 2011-06-22 23:37:33 <freakazoid> or borrow money from you for some innocuous purpose and then use money I already had that I would have spent on that innocuous thing for skydiving
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3970 2011-06-22 23:37:46 LameArse has joined
3971 2011-06-22 23:37:47 <freakazoid> I think you're getting into rationalization territory here.
3972 2011-06-22 23:38:48 <gmaxwell> ::maybe:: I've certantly turned down loans to people when I thought their purposes were unlikely to be successful. In some cases they went and got the money elsewhere, in others they changed their plans.
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3979 2011-06-22 23:40:24 <go1dfish> greetings
3980 2011-06-22 23:40:29 bittwist has joined
3981 2011-06-22 23:40:44 <B0g4r7> I think that's how prosper.com and lc work.
3982 2011-06-22 23:40:58 skeledrew1 has joined
3983 2011-06-22 23:41:02 <B0g4r7> Ppl post their plans for monies they wanna borrow, and potential lenders then evaluate that.
3984 2011-06-22 23:41:05 LameArse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3985 2011-06-22 23:41:47 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3989 2011-06-22 23:42:08 <go1dfish> droud: anway, i was thinking that at least for a bitcoin / namecoin exhcange...
3990 2011-06-22 23:42:18 <B0g4r7> I wonder if there are potential borrowers on their with bitcoin plans.
3991 2011-06-22 23:42:22 <B0g4r7> Probably.
3992 2011-06-22 23:42:24 <go1dfish> you could do an exchange the just created a new address for each order
3993 2011-06-22 23:42:28 <droud> go1dfish: It's a lot easier than I thought.  Basically all a site would have to do is give you a unique address to send to, then watch for a deposit of 0.00000001 BTC.
3994 2011-06-22 23:42:38 <go1dfish> no accounts needed
3995 2011-06-22 23:43:03 LameArse has joined
3996 2011-06-22 23:43:08 <go1dfish> droud: yeah, or even a random number like paypal/dwolla verification deposits
3997 2011-06-22 23:43:23 <go1dfish> droud: I suggested that gox should have used that to verify accounts a few times as well
3998 2011-06-22 23:43:26 <droud> go1dfish: Well it's coming out of the person logging in's wallet.
3999 2011-06-22 23:43:46 <go1dfish> everyone forgets that all addresses are is proof of identify
4000 2011-06-22 23:43:51 Nexus7 has quit ()
4001 2011-06-22 23:44:21 <go1dfish> droud: I still think challenge/response would be the best model to keep it free, and also faster
4002 2011-06-22 23:44:25 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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4004 2011-06-22 23:44:41 <go1dfish> although I guess you wouldn't have to wait for verification so it would be pretty quick with just the send
4005 2011-06-22 23:44:41 <droud> go1dfish: The challenge is the receiving address.
4006 2011-06-22 23:44:50 <droud> go1dfish: The people logging in send the BTC, not the site.
4007 2011-06-22 23:45:04 <go1dfish> also, using challenge/response can make it behave more like traditional password login people are used to
4008 2011-06-22 23:45:14 <droud> go1dfish: Plus, anyone can see any transaction on the network so sending a variable amount wouldn't do much good.
4009 2011-06-22 23:45:20 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4010 2011-06-22 23:45:35 <go1dfish> droud: well obviously you couldn't use the same number each time
4011 2011-06-22 23:45:37 <droud> The real trick is verifying the wallet chain.
4012 2011-06-22 23:46:09 <go1dfish> all we need is a function in the main client to "sign" some random text provided by the target site
4013 2011-06-22 23:46:30 <go1dfish> the user then takes the signature and posts it to the target site to log in
4014 2011-06-22 23:46:43 <go1dfish> site verifies the signature, and you have authentication
4015 2011-06-22 23:46:48 <luke-jr> YEP
4016 2011-06-22 23:46:52 <go1dfish> you can store everything plaintext
4017 2011-06-22 23:47:11 <go1dfish> DB gets dumped to pastebin, whoopty fucking do
4018 2011-06-22 23:47:21 SecretSJ has quit (Quit: Few women admit their age.  Few men act theirs.)
4019 2011-06-22 23:47:22 <luke-jr> go1dfish: it's called signmessage kthx
4020 2011-06-22 23:47:38 JRWR has quit ()
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4024 2011-06-22 23:48:12 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 298000 55882
4025 2011-06-22 23:48:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 298000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 55882, is 1 week, 2 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, and 27 seconds
4026 2011-06-22 23:48:13 LameArse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4027 2011-06-22 23:48:23 <luke-jr> srsly?
4028 2011-06-22 23:48:35 <go1dfish> luke-jr: thanks http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=6428.0
4029 2011-06-22 23:51:58 sanchaz has joined
4030 2011-06-22 23:52:22 quellhorst has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
4031 2011-06-22 23:52:34 <basilfaulty> lol 55882?
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