1 2011-06-25 00:00:25 molecular has joined
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   7 2011-06-25 00:06:09 <Coinstacker> Diablo-D3: Wrather that looks to me like your creating 2 versions of W[3] (X and Y) but not making any changes between them.
   8 2011-06-25 00:06:31 <ericmock> luke-jr: a 10.5 compatible version is at the above link
   9 2011-06-25 00:06:37 <Coinstacker> also, I like W's to much
  10 2011-06-25 00:06:51 <ericmock> I'm curious to know if it works since I don't have a 10.5 machine to test on
  11 2011-06-25 00:07:17 kish_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  13 2011-06-25 00:08:00 <dinox> Funny
  14 2011-06-25 00:08:26 <dinox> I am in a situation where getbalance != getbalance "*"
  15 2011-06-25 00:08:26 fujiwos has joined
  16 2011-06-25 00:08:51 <dinox> and getbalance "*" is the right one
  17 2011-06-25 00:11:30 _ape has joined
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  21 2011-06-25 00:16:52 <Diablo-D3> Coinstacker: trust me, it works.
  22 2011-06-25 00:17:35 lessPlastic has joined
  23 2011-06-25 00:17:56 <Coinstacker> Diablo-D3: Thanks for spreading the paginism magic?
  24 2011-06-25 00:20:23 <D0han> its part of bitcoin religion, you cant obey that
  25 2011-06-25 00:20:41 <D0han> not obey*
  26 2011-06-25 00:20:42 <D0han> damn
  27 2011-06-25 00:20:42 <D0han> ;d
  28 2011-06-25 00:21:06 <Coinstacker> ah ha! the truth wants out!
  29 2011-06-25 00:21:20 devserial has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  30 2011-06-25 00:21:55 <Diablo-D3> dude, the only thing that wants out is my crowbar, and it is hooongray
  31 2011-06-25 00:22:51 <Coinstacker> Diablo-D3: Tell it to grab a snickers?
  32 2011-06-25 00:22:54 <dinox> sipa: Still having problems with balance not correct when importing keys.. getbalance "*" is correct but getbalance is not
  33 2011-06-25 00:23:46 ajcutshall has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  34 2011-06-25 00:23:47 <Coinstacker> Jgarzik: Are you around?
  35 2011-06-25 00:23:48 josephholsten has joined
  36 2011-06-25 00:23:50 <sipa> dinox: i believe that is a known issue
  37 2011-06-25 00:23:55 <sipa> dinox: talk to gavin about it
  38 2011-06-25 00:24:01 <sipa> i can't remember the details
  39 2011-06-25 00:24:12 <jgarzik> Coinstacker: I'm definitely a bit tubby.  Round?  Open to debate.
  40 2011-06-25 00:24:22 <dinox> since getbalance is making sum of all txouts, something is not updating correct when doing a ScanForWalletTransactions(pindexGenesisBlock, true);
  41 2011-06-25 00:24:26 <dinox> ah, nice
  42 2011-06-25 00:24:39 <sipa> dinox: is there a tx with 0 confirmations there?
  43 2011-06-25 00:24:47 <dinox> sipa: no
  44 2011-06-25 00:24:53 <sipa> hmmm
  45 2011-06-25 00:25:02 <sipa> that's strange then
  46 2011-06-25 00:25:04 <Coinstacker> jgarzik: Can I trouble you for some expert help on openCL?
  47 2011-06-25 00:25:26 <jgarzik> Coinstacker: ask on #bitcoin-mining.  I am not an OpenCL expert.
  48 2011-06-25 00:25:29 <sipa> dinox: testnet?
  49 2011-06-25 00:25:37 <dinox> sipa: yes
  50 2011-06-25 00:25:56 <sipa> tried -rescan yourself?
  51 2011-06-25 00:26:07 <dinox> yep, that works fine
  52 2011-06-25 00:26:16 <sipa> it works after a rescan? :o
  53 2011-06-25 00:26:42 <sipa> i mean, the balance issue is fixed after a rescan?
  54 2011-06-25 00:26:57 <dinox> yeah
  55 2011-06-25 00:27:10 <sipa> and after just restarting the client it isn't?
  56 2011-06-25 00:27:35 <dinox> hmm, I dont think I have tested that, 1 sec
  57 2011-06-25 00:28:37 <dinox> sipa: It is updated after a restart, without the rescan
  58 2011-06-25 00:29:33 <sipa> which code are you using exactly?
  59 2011-06-25 00:29:49 <sipa> my showwallet branch?
  60 2011-06-25 00:29:53 lessPlastic has quit (Quit: lessPlastic)
  61 2011-06-25 00:30:24 <dinox> sipa: yes, with mhanne's removeprivkey
  62 2011-06-25 00:30:35 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  63 2011-06-25 00:30:39 <dinox> but neither that nor your importprivkey updates balance
  64 2011-06-25 00:31:00 <sipa> i'll look into it tomorrow
  65 2011-06-25 00:31:11 <dinox> thanks!
  66 2011-06-25 00:31:50 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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  68 2011-06-25 00:32:26 <dinox> btw, anyone that can describe the CRITICAL_BLOCK stuff for me?
  69 2011-06-25 00:32:31 <luke-jr> ericmock: Exception Type:  EXC_BREAKPOINT (SIGTRAP)
  70 2011-06-25 00:32:56 <ericmock> hmm...  anything about missing libraries?
  71 2011-06-25 00:33:56 __robin__ has joined
  72 2011-06-25 00:35:05 <BlueMatt> dinox: CRITICAL_BLOCK == Lock
  73 2011-06-25 00:35:50 sabalaba has joined
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  75 2011-06-25 00:36:13 <dinox> BlueMatt: ah, so CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet) means lock cs_mapwallet?
  76 2011-06-25 00:36:20 <sipa> indeed
  77 2011-06-25 00:36:29 <sipa> within the block of code that follows
  78 2011-06-25 00:36:53 <dinox> it wasn't harder than that, thanks
  79 2011-06-25 00:37:17 <RobboNZ> there is a bitcoin CS map?
  80 2011-06-25 00:37:29 <RobboNZ> u buy guns with bitcoins now or what?
  81 2011-06-25 00:37:49 wolfspraul has joined
  82 2011-06-25 00:37:51 <ericmock> luke-jr: looks like libdb_cxx-5.1.dylib isn't 10.5-friendly
  83 2011-06-25 00:38:04 <ericmock> thanks for trying
  84 2011-06-25 00:38:46 <ericmock> anyone on OSX 10.6/7 wanting to test a native client?
  85 2011-06-25 00:39:01 <luke-jr> ericmock: notably, using db 5.1 is stupid :P
  86 2011-06-25 00:39:27 <ericmock> reason being?
  87 2011-06-25 00:39:32 <luke-jr> ericmock: you really don't want people to be able to use CocoaBitcoin wallets with other clients?
  88 2011-06-25 00:39:39 <luke-jr> it's not downgradable
  89 2011-06-25 00:39:52 <luke-jr> wxBitcoin is using db 4.7 on most platforms
  90 2011-06-25 00:39:55 <luke-jr> and db 4.8 on Gentoo
  91 2011-06-25 00:40:30 <sipa> 4.8 on osx too
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  94 2011-06-25 00:41:00 <BlueMatt> 4.8 on 0.4 (if someone reminds me to update gitian descriptors)
  95 2011-06-25 00:41:48 <ericmock> and the reason things aren't moving to 5.x is?
  96 2011-06-25 00:42:02 <BlueMatt> too un-backward compatible
  97 2011-06-25 00:42:13 quellhorst has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  98 2011-06-25 00:42:22 <ericmock> but forward compatible?
  99 2011-06-25 00:42:42 <BlueMatt> 4.7->4.8 just means a tiny minority has to delete database folder
 100 2011-06-25 00:43:04 <BlueMatt> 5.X means everyones wallet gets updated, then you cant revert to old bitcoin version no matter what
 101 2011-06-25 00:43:06 <ericmock> 5.x can't read 4.x db's?
 102 2011-06-25 00:43:21 <BlueMatt> it will update your wallet to be readable only by 5.X
 103 2011-06-25 00:44:35 <sipa> 4.7 can read 4.8 db's, as long as the log file is clean (or empty?)
 104 2011-06-25 00:44:53 <sipa> and people DO downgrade
 105 2011-06-25 00:45:17 <ericmock> and how long do you plan to support people downgrading?
 106 2011-06-25 00:45:28 dvide_ has joined
 107 2011-06-25 00:45:34 <BlueMatt> as long as its sane to do so
 108 2011-06-25 00:45:34 <sipa> as long as there is no good reason to upgrade to 5.0 ?
 109 2011-06-25 00:45:46 <BlueMatt> what sipa said
 110 2011-06-25 00:46:17 <ericmock> and crap, the distributed build statically linked the libraries?
 111 2011-06-25 00:46:21 <ericmock> wonderful
 112 2011-06-25 00:46:22 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 113 2011-06-25 00:46:41 <BlueMatt> well that is for sanitys sake
 114 2011-06-25 00:46:57 <BlueMatt> because we arent releasing debs, as we attempt to support other distros
 115 2011-06-25 00:47:12 <ericmock> you realize you can just put them in the app bundle...
 116 2011-06-25 00:47:17 <BlueMatt> and we dont want install instructions that say "install packages x, y, z, ..."
 117 2011-06-25 00:47:24 <ericmock> you don't need them
 118 2011-06-25 00:47:25 <BlueMatt> oh, you mean osx?
 119 2011-06-25 00:47:29 <BlueMatt> yea, that I cant comment on
 120 2011-06-25 00:47:55 <BlueMatt> thats all laszlo
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 127 2011-06-25 00:55:01 <sacarlson> has anyone yet played with groffer's escrow patch for bitcoin?  I have it compiled but haven't figured out the syntax yet
 128 2011-06-25 00:55:20 mtrlt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 129 2011-06-25 00:55:47 <sacarlson> I tried this bitcoind -rpcport=38332 sendescrow 2 n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6 mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui 1.23
 130 2011-06-25 00:56:44 <sacarlson> but get: error: {"code":-1,"message":"sendescrow <escrowaddrs> <amount>
 131 2011-06-25 00:56:52 jsnyder has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 132 2011-06-25 00:57:25 <dinox> sacarlson: whats the "2" doing there?
 133 2011-06-25 00:57:52 <gmaxwell> dinox: need two sigs to release.
 134 2011-06-25 00:58:04 <gmaxwell> (out of the three)
 135 2011-06-25 00:58:10 <sacarlson> dinox: that's supposed to be how many votes needed to before the escrow will clear
 136 2011-06-25 00:58:25 <dinox> ah, ok
 137 2011-06-25 00:58:46 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 138 2011-06-25 00:58:50 <dinox> that wasn't in the desc :)
 139 2011-06-25 00:58:51 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: you need commas
 140 2011-06-25 00:59:00 <gmaxwell> 2,n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6,mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd,mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui
 141 2011-06-25 00:59:06 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I also tried with comas
 142 2011-06-25 00:59:08 <gmaxwell> you're not running this against the bitcoin network areyou?
 143 2011-06-25 00:59:24 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: no I'm running it on the weeds networkd
 144 2011-06-25 00:59:58 <gmaxwell> try json form {2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6'...
 145 2011-06-25 01:00:07 <gmaxwell> oh dur, should have looked at the address. :)
 146 2011-06-25 01:00:22 RAM2012 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 147 2011-06-25 01:00:28 <luke-jr> ericmock: 5.x isn't stable on most OS
 148 2011-06-25 01:00:47 <ericmock> ah, figured a .1 would be..
 149 2011-06-25 01:00:51 mtrlt has joined
 150 2011-06-25 01:01:10 <ericmock> anyone got tips on moving 5.1 to 4.8?
 151 2011-06-25 01:01:19 agricocb has joined
 152 2011-06-25 01:01:55 <ericmock> I mean the db files
 153 2011-06-25 01:02:28 <luke-jr> [20:45:59] <ericmock> you realize you can just put them in the app bundle…
 154 2011-06-25 01:02:33 Sylph has joined
 155 2011-06-25 01:02:36 <luke-jr> ericmock: on any sane OS, that's called "bad practice"
 156 2011-06-25 01:03:05 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: tried this still no go: bitcoind -rpcport=38332 sendescrow 2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6','mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd','mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui',1.23
 157 2011-06-25 01:03:05 <ericmock> as opposed to statically linking them?
 158 2011-06-25 01:03:39 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: maybe I should try with curl to simulate json as you said
 159 2011-06-25 01:03:56 <luke-jr> ericmock: it's the same thing as static linking
 160 2011-06-25 01:04:02 <luke-jr> except less efficient
 161 2011-06-25 01:04:11 <ericmock> which is what's being done now, no?
 162 2011-06-25 01:04:25 <luke-jr> not once autotools gets merged, I presume
 163 2011-06-25 01:04:41 <luke-jr> should clean up that crap
 164 2011-06-25 01:05:36 <ericmock> wonderful for Unix users...
 165 2011-06-25 01:07:44 <luke-jr> broken OS can static link as usual
 166 2011-06-25 01:08:52 quellhorst has joined
 167 2011-06-25 01:08:59 <ericmock> wow Unix trolling...  did that 15 years ago.
 168 2011-06-25 01:09:07 <ericmock> well, more like 20
 169 2011-06-25 01:09:21 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: like a sendmany
 170 2011-06-25 01:09:23 <ericmock> and moved on
 171 2011-06-25 01:09:25 ByteCoin has joined
 172 2011-06-25 01:09:41 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I don't know how to do a sendmany
 173 2011-06-25 01:09:54 <gmaxwell> "{2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6','mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd','mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui'} 1.23
 174 2011-06-25 01:10:05 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I tried that also bitcoind -rpcport=38332 sendescrow {2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6','mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd','mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui'},1.23
 175 2011-06-25 01:10:05 <gmaxwell> er "{2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6','mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd','mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui'}" 1.23
 176 2011-06-25 01:10:20 <gmaxwell> the quotes matter.
 177 2011-06-25 01:10:28 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh ok thanks
 178 2011-06-25 01:11:46 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: nope bitcoind -rpcport=38332 sendescrow "{2,'n2ayFJktyB1PNbtvHzYZZV2mMErYwdmms6','mq6BCCCobn6MCgnYqGvcBvA1PEFS8L2Wpd','mpLVd3o4hWhbF3sN1hhWjEcWW5Y4mFzmui'}",1.23
 179 2011-06-25 01:12:02 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: also tried without the coma at ,1.23
 180 2011-06-25 01:13:58 gim has quit (Quit: some sleep)
 181 2011-06-25 01:14:03 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
 182 2011-06-25 01:14:04 <gribble> 133146
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 194 2011-06-25 01:25:46 <ius> luke-jr: Perhaps old and debunked, but http://pastebin.com/ACPjkxpr
 195 2011-06-25 01:26:04 <ius> And that addr was used on Eligius
 196 2011-06-25 01:26:22 Lexa has joined
 197 2011-06-25 01:26:43 <ius> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22775 and there
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 247 2011-06-25 02:12:50 <gmaxwell> Anyone with a yubikey know how many challenge responses it can do per second? I'm thinking it might make a reasonable dirt cheap solution for website password validation that can't be stolen by a cracker.
 248 2011-06-25 02:13:13 wardearia has joined
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 251 2011-06-25 02:13:41 <gmaxwell> E.g. you store salt,yubikey(iteratedexpensivehash(password+salt))
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 256 2011-06-25 02:16:44 <tcatm> gmaxwell: it's limited to about 24 Hz by the usb keyboard interface
 257 2011-06-25 02:17:04 <tcatm> gmaxwell: no idea whether the crypto limit is lower or higher
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 260 2011-06-25 02:19:09 <gmaxwell> hah alas. Even that would be a bit slow. Though perhaps challenge response mode doesn't have the keyboard limit?
 261 2011-06-25 02:19:49 <tcatm> could be, but I doubt the crypto IC is powerful enough to be much faster
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 266 2011-06-25 02:22:37 <tcatm> gmaxwell: do you know whether it works with linux?
 267 2011-06-25 02:23:24 <gmaxwell> Yes, it does.
 268 2011-06-25 02:23:35 pogden has joined
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 270 2011-06-25 02:24:22 <gmaxwell> They have code here: https://github.com/Yubico/python-yubico
 271 2011-06-25 02:24:42 <tcatm> looks like the fastest API call is reading the serial number which takes 50ms
 272 2011-06-25 02:25:24 <tcatm> the paper says that can be done synchronously as it is fast. thus I'd guess the crypto calls are much slower
 273 2011-06-25 02:25:53 <gmaxwell> well in some modes you have to press the button, thus the need for async
 274 2011-06-25 02:25:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: how does that work without having a preseed like rsa's stuff?
 275 2011-06-25 02:25:57 <jrmithdobbs> or does it
 276 2011-06-25 02:26:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: IIRC you can load the hmac key into it, you just can't read it out again.
 277 2011-06-25 02:26:25 <jrmithdobbs> oh nice
 278 2011-06-25 02:26:34 <jrmithdobbs> why didn't someone do that years ago?
 279 2011-06-25 02:26:53 <jrmithdobbs> has anyone actually tried hard to get the hmac back off?
 280 2011-06-25 02:27:18 <tcatm> there is a 30-250
 281 2011-06-25 02:27:28 <tcatm> ms delay depending on the operation executed
 282 2011-06-25 02:27:53 <tcatm> page 7 of Yubikey Client COM API.doc
 283 2011-06-25 02:28:45 <gmaxwell> so you generate a hmac key offline, load it (and back it up so you don't lose all passwords if it fails), then plug the sucker into the website. no more password theft. But sadly 30-250ms is way too slow.
 284 2011-06-25 02:29:24 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: who knows? obviously it should be hardened against that, but it's probably not impossible. People are using them for software licensing dongles though, so I imagine that its been attacked.
 285 2011-06-25 02:29:54 <gmaxwell> In the context of a webserver the ability to attack it would be pretty limited (no physical access), but it's too slow.
 286 2011-06-25 02:30:54 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: think so? how much they cost?
 287 2011-06-25 02:31:11 <jrmithdobbs> $25 each?
 288 2011-06-25 02:31:18 <tcatm> how does the OTP (the 44 char keyboard input) work? I mean, how does it ensure the passphrase can be used only once?
 289 2011-06-25 02:31:22 <jrmithdobbs> where's the whitesheet i'm not seeing power reqs
 290 2011-06-25 02:31:25 <gmaxwell> haha ... I suppose you're right.
 291 2011-06-25 02:31:44 <jrmithdobbs> just by 16 of them
 292 2011-06-25 02:31:45 <gmaxwell> tcatm: it has an internal counter, so it only generates it once, the server side needs to remember the current counter position.
 293 2011-06-25 02:31:46 <jrmithdobbs> and a hub
 294 2011-06-25 02:32:02 <tcatm> gmaxwell: ah, okay
 295 2011-06-25 02:32:06 <jrmithdobbs> 50 for 1000 even!
 296 2011-06-25 02:32:12 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, would probably still be cheaper than the commercial security modules... kinda ghetto though!
 297 2011-06-25 02:32:20 <tcatm> now if I could use it for GPG... :)
 298 2011-06-25 02:32:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: how are people actually using it in the wild though? there's no clock on it so you can't use it like a traditional token
 299 2011-06-25 02:32:51 <jrmithdobbs> unless i'm missing something
 300 2011-06-25 02:33:15 <jrmithdobbs> sure it generates a OTP but if it can't be predicted on the other side ...
 301 2011-06-25 02:33:39 <gmaxwell> The otp is keyed. The other side knows the key.
 302 2011-06-25 02:34:34 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 303 2011-06-25 02:34:35 <gmaxwell> In OTP mode, it outputs counter,sha1(key+counter)  The server knows the key and the last counter used.
 304 2011-06-25 02:35:09 dfc has quit (Quit: leaving)
 305 2011-06-25 02:35:27 dbasch__ has quit (Quit: dbasch__)
 306 2011-06-25 02:35:30 segfault64 has joined
 307 2011-06-25 02:36:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: so what happens if you push the button too many times and send it to the wrong place?
 308 2011-06-25 02:36:50 <jrmithdobbs> it just makes sure the counter is > last time?
 309 2011-06-25 02:37:31 <gmaxwell> I believe so. Yea, it's not as good as the rsa tokens. But it's also $25 with no server costs.
 310 2011-06-25 02:37:47 <gmaxwell> the challenge response mode prevents that kind of stupidity, but it needs client software.
 311 2011-06-25 02:38:02 <gmaxwell> I the normal one way OTP mode it just acts as a usb keyboard and works everywhere.
 312 2011-06-25 02:38:24 <BitcoinForNewegg> you can also generate a few passcodes
 313 2011-06-25 02:38:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> and keep them with u
 314 2011-06-25 02:38:44 <jrmithdobbs> that's not useful
 315 2011-06-25 02:39:18 sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 316 2011-06-25 02:39:36 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 317 2011-06-25 02:40:21 <jrmithdobbs> be really cool if they'd implement one that appeared as a microsdcard
 318 2011-06-25 02:40:33 <jrmithdobbs> usable in phone
 319 2011-06-25 02:40:45 <dehuman> ?
 320 2011-06-25 02:40:46 sshc has joined
 321 2011-06-25 02:40:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> ?
 322 2011-06-25 02:41:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> RSA secureid tokens can be software, or a flash drive sized thingy
 323 2011-06-25 02:41:15 bobd0bb has quit ()
 324 2011-06-25 02:41:21 <dehuman> microsd dont see how that would work
 325 2011-06-25 02:41:27 bobd0bb has joined
 326 2011-06-25 02:41:43 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: i can't think of how it could either
 327 2011-06-25 02:41:44 <dehuman> usb hid class is kind of neat tho
 328 2011-06-25 02:42:03 <dehuman> but yah liek you said its not really feasible
 329 2011-06-25 02:42:05 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: just saying, my phone is where i'd want things like that the most ;p
 330 2011-06-25 02:42:10 <dehuman> cause of the reason you just enumerated
 331 2011-06-25 02:42:16 <dehuman> needs to work across devices
 332 2011-06-25 02:42:45 <dehuman> is there a bluetooth hid class?
 333 2011-06-25 02:42:50 <dehuman> there is isnt there
 334 2011-06-25 02:43:04 <gmaxwell> yes, of course, people use keyboards with phones all the time.
 335 2011-06-25 02:43:17 <dehuman> a bluetooth + usb key fob would work for many modern smartphone and computer
 336 2011-06-25 02:43:19 <jrmithdobbs> i wouldn't say all the time ;p
 337 2011-06-25 02:43:21 <gmaxwell> the yubico forum has some post where people are talking about bluetooth adaptors.
 338 2011-06-25 02:43:34 <dehuman> er is
 339 2011-06-25 02:43:39 <dehuman>  sorry dunno why i said isnt
 340 2011-06-25 02:44:10 <dehuman> i meant' duh of course y0, serial, audio, keyboard + mouse'
 341 2011-06-25 02:44:10 <jrmithdobbs> oh really, didn't know usb hid -> bt hid adapters existed
 342 2011-06-25 02:44:44 <dehuman> well you'd just have whatever uc thing with both usb hid class and bt transceiver
 343 2011-06-25 02:44:49 dfc has joined
 344 2011-06-25 02:45:01 <dehuman> i dunno about the usb to bt hid adapters exist but that makes sense i suppose
 345 2011-06-25 02:45:07 <dehuman> plug your favorite keyboard into bluetooth
 346 2011-06-25 02:45:07 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: no you need batteries in it then
 347 2011-06-25 02:45:16 Diablo-D3 has joined
 348 2011-06-25 02:45:24 pyro-DerWahre- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 349 2011-06-25 02:45:25 <dehuman> well you'd have to have batteries for bluetooth
 350 2011-06-25 02:45:26 <gmaxwell> yubico actually has a more proper HSM that is actually ment for this ghetto thing I'm suggesting, but it's $500, which is enormously cheap compared to whatever else... but it's not so cheap that joe-random-bitcoin-service would actually deploy it.
 351 2011-06-25 02:45:26 <jrmithdobbs> makes it much larger if replacable and limited lifetime if not
 352 2011-06-25 02:45:28 <dehuman> just make ti a fob
 353 2011-06-25 02:45:31 <dehuman> and have it charge usb
 354 2011-06-25 02:45:40 <jrmithdobbs> which kills two of their major selling points
 355 2011-06-25 02:45:44 <dehuman> with a small li-ion or something
 356 2011-06-25 02:45:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> so mtgox shoulda reopened site by now?
 357 2011-06-25 02:46:02 <pedroleone> any cool stuff to do with gpu's besides mining and cracking passwords?
 358 2011-06-25 02:46:02 <dehuman> well thats just reality of a phone interface jrsmithdob
 359 2011-06-25 02:46:10 <gmaxwell> http://static.yubico.com/var/uploads/pdfs/YubiHSM%20Manual%202011-04-12.pdf the fine manual
 360 2011-06-25 02:46:20 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: hence why i was saying microsd
 361 2011-06-25 02:46:25 <dehuman> can an android phone act as an usb host?
 362 2011-06-25 02:46:33 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: even though i can't think of how it'd work since afaik sd doesn't pass any power
 363 2011-06-25 02:46:37 <dehuman> but thats mass storage client class ro whatever
 364 2011-06-25 02:46:57 <jrmithdobbs> can if running cyanogenmod on certain hardware
 365 2011-06-25 02:47:00 <dehuman> there is a controller that provides a specific client class for mass storage, additionally it would have to grok a fileystem since phone expects to see that
 366 2011-06-25 02:47:04 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't implement a software usb host
 367 2011-06-25 02:47:18 Maged has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
 368 2011-06-25 02:47:32 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: that's fine. vfat. one file. return value when file is read.
 369 2011-06-25 02:47:35 <jrmithdobbs> that's not the hard part
 370 2011-06-25 02:47:43 <dehuman> now maybe if you did some kludge where there was a clietn on the phone or pc that wrote 'files' to the device to communicate with it and it wrote back otp or wahtever
 371 2011-06-25 02:47:59 <dehuman> but you'd need some middleware
 372 2011-06-25 02:48:05 <jrmithdobbs> yes of course
 373 2011-06-25 02:48:09 <dehuman> client is ikcy bnut eh
 374 2011-06-25 02:48:16 <jrmithdobbs> you'd need middleware but the interface would actually be simpler than usb hid
 375 2011-06-25 02:48:20 <jrmithdobbs> if you could get power to it.
 376 2011-06-25 02:48:37 <dehuman> oh yah its powered you can just get power off the usb rail no matter what
 377 2011-06-25 02:48:47 <dehuman> not alot but you dont need a lot
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 385 2011-06-25 02:50:40 <dehuman> i like the usb hid, it types in yoru password for you, no client
 386 2011-06-25 02:50:46 <dehuman> any hid would be the same
 387 2011-06-25 02:51:07 <gmaxwell> dehuman: since it can't do challenge response that limits the security though.
 388 2011-06-25 02:51:16 Pinion has joined
 389 2011-06-25 02:51:40 <gmaxwell> e.g. I can borrow your yubikey and spool out a bunch of one-time passwords.
 390 2011-06-25 02:51:47 <dehuman> eh
 391 2011-06-25 02:51:59 <dehuman> can phones do usb cdc ?
 392 2011-06-25 02:52:00 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 393 2011-06-25 02:52:04 <dehuman> usb serial?
 394 2011-06-25 02:52:07 <gmaxwell> but it is nice that it can do that driverless, and with a driver it can do challenge response.
 395 2011-06-25 02:52:10 <gmaxwell> No clue.
 396 2011-06-25 02:52:15 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: none that i know of
 397 2011-06-25 02:52:19 <jrmithdobbs> well
 398 2011-06-25 02:52:23 <dehuman> then you can do a client that could talk to it
 399 2011-06-25 02:52:27 <jrmithdobbs> old se phones can do bt serial
 400 2011-06-25 02:52:29 <dehuman> and there is bluetooth serial profile too
 401 2011-06-25 02:52:40 <jrmithdobbs> but android/iphone have the shittiest bt stacks EVER
 402 2011-06-25 02:52:46 <jrmithdobbs> and those are the two that matter
 403 2011-06-25 02:52:53 pyro-DerWahre- has joined
 404 2011-06-25 02:52:54 <dehuman> well thats why bt is a ghetto whore in the first place
 405 2011-06-25 02:53:01 <dehuman> bt stacks are all over the place
 406 2011-06-25 02:53:13 <dehuman> when you buy a bluetooth radio thats what you are paying for if you pay retail
 407 2011-06-25 02:53:21 <dehuman> you can get the radios for like $2
 408 2011-06-25 02:53:46 <dehuman> but microsoft even provides a free serial profile iirc
 409 2011-06-25 02:53:57 Shadyman1 has joined
 410 2011-06-25 02:54:11 <jrmithdobbs> bluez implements one
 411 2011-06-25 02:54:16 Shadyman1 has left ()
 412 2011-06-25 02:54:25 Netto has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 413 2011-06-25 02:54:30 <jrmithdobbs> serial, hid, file transfer iirc
 414 2011-06-25 02:55:16 dbasch_ has joined
 415 2011-06-25 02:55:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i dunno if you use password + otp to aquire say, a kerberos token, the challenge response part isn't as important
 416 2011-06-25 02:55:30 <jrmithdobbs> kerberos solves so many of these damned problems
 417 2011-06-25 02:55:34 <jrmithdobbs> why don't people use it :(
 418 2011-06-25 02:55:54 Netto has joined
 419 2011-06-25 02:57:00 <dehuman> i think android can do SPP with BlueToothSocket
 420 2011-06-25 02:57:42 <jrmithdobbs> spp?
 421 2011-06-25 02:58:22 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: someone can still pull off a bunch of otp keys using their laptop then themselves a krb ticket later when they feel like it.
 422 2011-06-25 02:58:25 <dehuman> bluetooth serial port profile
 423 2011-06-25 02:58:32 <dehuman> iphone doesnt and wont
 424 2011-06-25 02:58:49 <dehuman> but there are others like PAN or maybe AVRCP that might be able to be used for other than intended purposes
 425 2011-06-25 02:59:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: except a sanely setup krb server only allows 5-10 minutes before expiration and if the real user uses a otp before they can the iterator will have already advanced
 426 2011-06-25 03:00:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it mitigates it greatly
 427 2011-06-25 03:00:22 <gmaxwell> Okay, fair enough.
 428 2011-06-25 03:00:36 <jrmithdobbs> <3 kerberos
 429 2011-06-25 03:00:40 <gmaxwell> Krb also solves the "server has to know the secret, so you can't use it to authenticate to multiple things" issue.
 430 2011-06-25 03:00:51 <jrmithdobbs> (says the one man on earth with a non-microsoft kerberos realm setp in his apartment)
 431 2011-06-25 03:00:57 <gmaxwell> (since only the krb server knows)
 432 2011-06-25 03:00:58 <jrmithdobbs> s/setp/setup/
 433 2011-06-25 03:01:09 <jrmithdobbs> yup
 434 2011-06-25 03:01:24 nannity has joined
 435 2011-06-25 03:01:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I've run krb at home, but not for years now... two accounts plus ssh key auth sort of removed the need.
 436 2011-06-25 03:01:38 Akiron has joined
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 439 2011-06-25 03:02:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ;p
 440 2011-06-25 03:02:21 magn3ts has joined
 441 2011-06-25 03:02:57 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: did you know most major browsers actually support kerberos auth now?
 442 2011-06-25 03:03:17 <gmaxwell> what n!?!@?
 443 2011-06-25 03:05:04 samlander has joined
 444 2011-06-25 03:05:08 <jrmithdobbs> safari / firefox / ie
 445 2011-06-25 03:05:09 <jrmithdobbs> not such about chrome but probably not seeing as it's ssl implementation is halfassed
 446 2011-06-25 03:05:09 <jrmithdobbs> s/such/sure/
 447 2011-06-25 03:05:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and still. NOONE USES IT.
 448 2011-06-25 03:05:10 <jrmithdobbs> it makes me nerd rage.
 449 2011-06-25 03:05:10 <jrmithdobbs> :(
 450 2011-06-25 03:06:05 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 451 2011-06-25 03:06:33 karnac has joined
 452 2011-06-25 03:06:49 falcnor-away is now known as falcnor
 453 2011-06-25 03:07:01 <jrmithdobbs> oh wow
 454 2011-06-25 03:07:04 <jrmithdobbs> color me shocked
 455 2011-06-25 03:07:06 <jrmithdobbs> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=19
 456 2011-06-25 03:07:16 <jrmithdobbs> chrome does support it. at least on windows not sure about other platforms
 457 2011-06-25 03:07:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: yup! you can thank microsoft for that actually.
 458 2011-06-25 03:07:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: they dropped their retarded NTLM browser auth and use the AD kerberos token now
 459 2011-06-25 03:08:11 JRWR has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 460 2011-06-25 03:08:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: nobody outside of AD-centric intranets uses it though
 461 2011-06-25 03:08:23 Robbie_ has joined
 462 2011-06-25 03:09:14 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: combined with dns-based kerberos realm discovery and/or sane realm names or the realm+host data being provided by the users it's actually feasible to use it on the internet
 463 2011-06-25 03:09:33 falcnor is now known as falcnor-away
 464 2011-06-25 03:09:45 <jrmithdobbs> assuming your target audience can get a valid krb token from an internet accessible server, of course
 465 2011-06-25 03:09:57 <jrmithdobbs> (so, .edu basically, at this point)
 466 2011-06-25 03:10:21 Lachesis has joined
 467 2011-06-25 03:10:45 <gmaxwell> it couldn't work any less well than openid
 468 2011-06-25 03:11:13 <gmaxwell> (at least I've found openid to your own site is basically non-functional, just about everything only works right against the few major services they support)
 469 2011-06-25 03:11:15 <jrmithdobbs> works much better
 470 2011-06-25 03:11:22 <jrmithdobbs> i never "got" openid
 471 2011-06-25 03:11:36 <jrmithdobbs> hey google: just throw up so goddamned kerberos servers
 472 2011-06-25 03:11:48 bitcoin1933 has joined
 473 2011-06-25 03:12:07 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's because it's not a well defined spec and no two providers implement it the same way
 474 2011-06-25 03:12:15 <gmaxwell> Well, it attempts to solve the same need. Except its from the web world so its hacky shit.
 475 2011-06-25 03:13:18 <jrmithdobbs> ya but it's crappy and not based on strong, well-proven, crypto if i remember how openid works correctly
 476 2011-06-25 03:13:25 RenaKunisaki has joined
 477 2011-06-25 03:13:38 <Namegduf> Huh.
 478 2011-06-25 03:13:42 <Namegduf> I've had the opposite experience.
 479 2011-06-25 03:13:55 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: of what?
 480 2011-06-25 03:14:00 <Namegduf> OpenID.
 481 2011-06-25 03:14:04 <upb> AHAHAHHAHAHA
 482 2011-06-25 03:14:04 Katapult_ is now known as Katapult
 483 2011-06-25 03:14:05 <upb> We have found that balances on some older accounts look significantly incorrect when compared with the old database. At this time we do not know what caused the balances to be off
 484 2011-06-25 03:14:17 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: have you actually run you own.
 485 2011-06-25 03:14:17 <Namegduf> I've not used that much OpenID stuff, but it's all liked my phpMyOpenId installation fine.
 486 2011-06-25 03:14:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: rofl http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=19
 487 2011-06-25 03:14:23 <Namegduf> *ID
 488 2011-06-25 03:14:24 <Namegduf> Yes.
 489 2011-06-25 03:14:25 <jrmithdobbs> er
 490 2011-06-25 03:14:29 <jrmithdobbs> https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20224998-huge-bitcoin-sell-off-due-to-a-compromised-account-rollback
 491 2011-06-25 03:14:34 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: yea, it doesn't actually work with lots of sites.
 492 2011-06-25 03:14:49 <jrmithdobbs> also google randomly changes your uid
 493 2011-06-25 03:14:56 freakazoid has joined
 494 2011-06-25 03:15:07 <jrmithdobbs> so actually working properly with google (arguably the most important/common provider) is a nightmare
 495 2011-06-25 03:15:15 <jrmithdobbs> you can randomly lose access to your account and shit
 496 2011-06-25 03:15:32 <jrmithdobbs> (from the other side of the conversation)
 497 2011-06-25 03:15:40 <jrmithdobbs> upb: i knew that 24 hours ago
 498 2011-06-25 03:15:43 <Namegduf> Ick.
 499 2011-06-25 03:15:56 <upb> jrmithdobbs: how ?
 500 2011-06-25 03:16:05 <Namegduf> gmaxwell: I think I've only tried Simple Machine Forums and britcoin, so you're probably right
 501 2011-06-25 03:16:13 <jrmithdobbs> upb: he said it in #mtgox
 502 2011-06-25 03:16:16 <upb> oh
 503 2011-06-25 03:16:23 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: or it behaves weird, for example on google gerrit you can login via it but your access is readonly if you're coming from phpmyopenid.
 504 2011-06-25 03:16:29 <jrmithdobbs> upb: THERE IS NO SQLI
 505 2011-06-25 03:16:36 <jrmithdobbs> upb: PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN
 506 2011-06-25 03:16:42 <Namegduf> gmaxwell: Weird.
 507 2011-06-25 03:17:32 <jrmithdobbs> upb: http://pastebin.com/HGssM2L7
 508 2011-06-25 03:17:53 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: there are also sites that simply block anything that isn't one of the major sites: too many sibyls.
 509 2011-06-25 03:17:57 pedroleone has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 510 2011-06-25 03:18:15 <jrmithdobbs> ya, openid is a failure
 511 2011-06-25 03:18:42 JRWR has joined
 512 2011-06-25 03:18:44 <Namegduf> That sounds like a failure, yeah.
 513 2011-06-25 03:19:14 <gmaxwell> "usingly negative by a lot" uh oh.
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 520 2011-06-25 03:20:05 <gmaxwell> wtf?
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 525 2011-06-25 03:29:01 <PatrikR> openid is good in theory, but causes too many problems in practice...
 526 2011-06-25 03:29:20 gsathya has joined
 527 2011-06-25 03:29:41 <jrmithdobbs> no actually it's not even good in theory
 528 2011-06-25 03:29:44 glitch-mod has joined
 529 2011-06-25 03:29:48 <jrmithdobbs> it seriously solves the same problem kerberos does.
 530 2011-06-25 03:29:53 kevinJ has joined
 531 2011-06-25 03:29:59 <jrmithdobbs> kerberos has been around 20 years, is well vetted, and is backed by strong crypto
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 537 2011-06-25 03:40:40 Akiron has quit (Quit: Akiron)
 538 2011-06-25 03:41:27 <sacarlson> why would I get the error error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"}  when I pass the value in params[1] with 1.23 with this function int64 nAmount = AmountFromValue(params[1]); ?
 539 2011-06-25 03:41:57 <gmaxwell> pretty halarious, the nutbag "omg we gotta fork bitcoin" guy showed up in #bitcoin-mining as "kevinJ" and claimed to be not the same original nutbag  "I talked to him and he was right"; yea too bad for him his hostmask was the same. hehe
 540 2011-06-25 03:42:29 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 541 2011-06-25 03:43:22 <Graet> lol
 542 2011-06-25 03:45:34 kevinJ has joined
 543 2011-06-25 03:45:37 <grug> lol
 544 2011-06-25 03:45:44 kevinJ has left ()
 545 2011-06-25 03:45:50 zamgo has joined
 546 2011-06-25 03:45:52 <grug> there are too many retards t hat claim that bitcoin needs forking
 547 2011-06-25 03:46:19 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 548 2011-06-25 03:46:38 <zamgo> so I forked bitcointools, to text out exporting wallet to SQL     https://github.com/zamgo/bitcointools
 549 2011-06-25 03:46:41 peck has joined
 550 2011-06-25 03:46:41 <zamgo> it kinda works
 551 2011-06-25 03:47:04 <zamgo> exporting blockchain to SQL is next... but that's non-trivial
 552 2011-06-25 03:47:43 <gmaxwell> grug: he's probably quiting and reoining trying to change hist hostmask now. :)
 553 2011-06-25 03:49:51 <lfm> zamgo why? block chain is already in a database
 554 2011-06-25 03:50:00 tandy80 has joined
 555 2011-06-25 03:50:02 <zamgo> why ask why?
 556 2011-06-25 03:50:10 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 557 2011-06-25 03:50:14 <zamgo> it's it a very flat database
 558 2011-06-25 03:50:21 <lfm> zamgo you like wasting your time?
 559 2011-06-25 03:50:30 <zamgo> wow
 560 2011-06-25 03:50:37 <zamgo> welcome to ignore lfm
 561 2011-06-25 03:50:56 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 562 2011-06-25 03:51:05 <lfm> ok, he fails to deny it
 563 2011-06-25 03:51:16 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: blockchain is not in a database
 564 2011-06-25 03:51:25 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: an index of the blockchain is
 565 2011-06-25 03:51:25 <lfm> bdb
 566 2011-06-25 03:51:28 <jrmithdobbs> nope
 567 2011-06-25 03:51:37 <jrmithdobbs> blk0001.dat is not bdb
 568 2011-06-25 03:51:53 <jrmithdobbs> look at it, i didn't realise this until the other day either
 569 2011-06-25 03:52:07 <lfm> blk0001 with blkindex
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 572 2011-06-25 03:57:58 <assassindrake> what happens if you send coins to a non-existant address?
 573 2011-06-25 03:58:10 <jrmithdobbs> all addresses exist so long as the checksum verifies
 574 2011-06-25 03:58:41 <ByteCoin> the coins wait until someone generates a key pair for that address
 575 2011-06-25 03:58:43 <jrmithdobbs> and the magic number is valid
 576 2011-06-25 03:58:51 <lfm> assassindrake: if you can figure out how to make up a non-existant address then the coins are basiclly lost
 577 2011-06-25 03:59:19 <assassindrake> so mistyping an address cant happen?
 578 2011-06-25 03:59:25 <jrmithdobbs> not really
 579 2011-06-25 03:59:33 <ByteCoin> can happen - see my post on the forum
 580 2011-06-25 03:59:33 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 581 2011-06-25 03:59:37 <ByteCoin> not likely though
 582 2011-06-25 03:59:39 <jrmithdobbs> it's theorhetically possible
 583 2011-06-25 03:59:43 <jrmithdobbs> but ya not likely
 584 2011-06-25 03:59:52 <assassindrake> ok
 585 2011-06-25 04:00:04 <lfm> like 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 is a valid address. random addresses are probably invalid, they have a checksum part inside
 586 2011-06-25 04:00:09 <assassindrake> my next question was would it show up in the block but i guess you answered that
 587 2011-06-25 04:00:27 <doublec> it's easy to send namecoins to a bitcoin address and viceversa
 588 2011-06-25 04:00:31 <doublec> quite a few people have done it
 589 2011-06-25 04:00:36 <ByteCoin> 1ByteCoinAddressesMatch1kpCxNXmHKW
 590 2011-06-25 04:00:38 <ByteCoin> 1ByteCoinAddressesMatch1kpCWNXmHKW
 591 2011-06-25 04:00:43 <ByteCoin> both valid addresses
 592 2011-06-25 04:01:05 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 593 2011-06-25 04:01:19 <egecko> but the namecoins wouldnt be recognized in the official chain right?
 594 2011-06-25 04:01:57 <zamgo> and easy to recover namecoins sent to bitcoin address....
 595 2011-06-25 04:02:00 <zamgo> and vice versa
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 597 2011-06-25 04:02:02 <lfm> all those funny looking addresses above are in the block chain
 598 2011-06-25 04:02:23 <doublec> egecko: right
 599 2011-06-25 04:02:29 cuddlefish has joined
 600 2011-06-25 04:02:46 <lfm> but you wont "recover" coins sent to them
 601 2011-06-25 04:02:47 <doublec> zamgo: yep, I've done it for a few users who've sent funds to the wrong type of address in the exchange
 602 2011-06-25 04:03:21 <zamgo> yes, got some code already that can spit out namecoin/bitcoin/testnet addresses for a keypair
 603 2011-06-25 04:04:00 <lfm> oh ok but you cant recover coins sent to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 cuz there never was a private key for it
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 606 2011-06-25 04:04:37 <ByteCoin> there never was a public key for it either for that matter
 607 2011-06-25 04:04:45 <lfm> ya true
 608 2011-06-25 04:05:02  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-69-208-136-77.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Netsniper
 609 2011-06-25 04:05:10 <ByteCoin> lfm: How come I don't see you post on the forum?
 610 2011-06-25 04:05:27 <cuddlefish> Hey guys, I have a strange proposal.
 611 2011-06-25 04:05:35 <lfm> I have a little bit but I dont follow it much
 612 2011-06-25 04:05:36 <cuddlefish> why do we need public-key crypto
 613 2011-06-25 04:05:42 <ByteCoin> ok
 614 2011-06-25 04:06:18 <lfm> cuddlefish: you mean in general or you mean for bitcoin?
 615 2011-06-25 04:06:26 <cuddlefish> lfm: for Bitcoin
 616 2011-06-25 04:06:57 <ByteCoin> lfm: Gavin's looking for ways to stop people losing their bitcoins if their computers get hacked
 617 2011-06-25 04:07:17 <ByteCoin> He's willing to change the client and introduce new transaction types etc..
 618 2011-06-25 04:07:24 <lfm> cuddlefish: hmm not sure how to explain, it is basiclly the only way we know to prove ownership of some BTC
 619 2011-06-25 04:07:39 <cuddlefish> lfm: Well, it's the only way you know :P
 620 2011-06-25 04:08:35 <ByteCoin> cuddlefish: Briefly, you need to be able to sign something without the info in your signature enabling someone else to get your key
 621 2011-06-25 04:08:49 <lfm> cuddlefish: it also stops other people claiming ownership even after they're spent.
 622 2011-06-25 04:08:54 <cuddlefish> ByteCoin: I know. i'm just writing this out
 623 2011-06-25 04:09:18 sacarlson has joined
 624 2011-06-25 04:09:23 <ByteCoin> cuddlefish: You did ask why PK crypto.. that's the reason.
 625 2011-06-25 04:09:46 ahbritto_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 626 2011-06-25 04:09:48 <lfm> cuddlefish: you think you know another way?
 627 2011-06-25 04:10:07 dfc has joined
 628 2011-06-25 04:10:07 <cuddlefish> yep
 629 2011-06-25 04:10:14 <cuddlefish> Fixing a few flaws though
 630 2011-06-25 04:10:17 <lfm> good luck with that
 631 2011-06-25 04:10:25 <ByteCoin> can be done I think without PK crypto but keys are huge I think...
 632 2011-06-25 04:11:37 <lfm> might be some way with diffie-helman key exchange or something but it wou;ld be way more clubersome I think
 633 2011-06-25 04:11:53 <lfm> clumbersome
 634 2011-06-25 04:12:02 <ByteCoin> dh still public key
 635 2011-06-25 04:12:12 <lfm> well not really
 636 2011-06-25 04:12:17 <ByteCoin> yes really...
 637 2011-06-25 04:12:33 <lfm> dh doesnt do signature afaik
 638 2011-06-25 04:13:06 <sacarlson> I'm getting this error error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"}  with 3 different version I have compiled for bitcoind settxfee .001 does the present build of bitcoind display this?  maybe I have a lib problem?
 639 2011-06-25 04:13:07 <ByteCoin> Not directly..
 640 2011-06-25 04:13:23 <ByteCoin> But even DSA can be traced back to DH
 641 2011-06-25 04:14:24 <lfm> sacarlson: ya so you're passing a string instead of a real. so?
 642 2011-06-25 04:14:25 <ByteCoin> Ok I grant that when most people say DH they think of key agreement which has no signature scheme
 643 2011-06-25 04:14:49 <sacarlson> lfm: so how do I pass a real on the command line?
 644 2011-06-25 04:14:55 <ByteCoin> brb
 645 2011-06-25 04:14:59 ByteCoin has left ()
 646 2011-06-25 04:15:32 <lfm> sacarlson: what command line?
 647 2011-06-25 04:15:36 Teslah has joined
 648 2011-06-25 04:15:57 <sacarlson> lfm: bitcoind settxfee .001 ;  as I type on my command line
 649 2011-06-25 04:16:04 <lfm> try 0.001
 650 2011-06-25 04:16:20 <sacarlson> lfm: ok cool I'll try that thanks
 651 2011-06-25 04:16:51 <lfm> some packages say numbers need to start with digits
 652 2011-06-25 04:17:00 <sacarlson> lfm: nope same error bitcoind settxfee 0.001
 653 2011-06-25 04:18:25 <lfm> sacarlson: works for me. I dont know what you are doing different
 654 2011-06-25 04:18:53 <lfm>     "version" : 32300,
 655 2011-06-25 04:18:55 <sacarlson> lfm: must be the version I'm running or my libs I guess
 656 2011-06-25 04:19:56 <sacarlson> lfm: "version" : 32300,  but the last I tried was with the mod for escrow so I'll try check out a different one
 657 2011-06-25 04:20:30 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
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 659 2011-06-25 04:24:21 <lfm> it seems to me it is actually a bug to demand it as a real snce it theoreticlly could get inaccurate, not that you are likely to want to set the fee to 20 million btc where youd see the loss of accuracy
 660 2011-06-25 04:25:39 dfc has quit (Quit: leaving)
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 662 2011-06-25 04:26:30 <gmaxwell> lfm: not just that, it encourages stupid behavior on the part of users. E.g. they'll end up using single precision float
 663 2011-06-25 04:27:10 TheZimm has joined
 664 2011-06-25 04:27:11 <gmaxwell> and then when people get righteous, 'how dare you use float for money you idiot!' they'll feel misguided by the api.
 665 2011-06-25 04:27:36 <sacarlson> lfm: well I'm happy with a work around if you have one
 666 2011-06-25 04:27:40 <lfm> maybe the fact sacarlson is getting the error in a test version means someone is part way thru fixing it
 667 2011-06-25 04:28:01 <gmaxwell> then they'll switch to 32 bit ints and die in an overflow. :)
 668 2011-06-25 04:28:11 <lfm> sacarlson: go back to the "production" verson of 0.3.23
 669 2011-06-25 04:28:15 <sacarlson> does it work in version 0c97aa9e141f5c23dc9f80e5fb4c8297d8a6b4dd published may 17th?
 670 2011-06-25 04:30:04 <lfm> whats that version? a md5sum or ??
 671 2011-06-25 04:30:19 <lfm> I get 4d79c45086d17b38015c1babce1f5018  bitcoin-0.3.23-linux.tar.gz
 672 2011-06-25 04:30:26 <lfm> for my tar.gz file
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 674 2011-06-25 04:30:40 <jgarzik> the sums I posted are SHA1
 675 2011-06-25 04:31:02 <sacarlson> lfm: on my gitg it says it's the sha version
 676 2011-06-25 04:31:40 <lfm> k I get 5ca82c5b694fc432b4b342dde5cd1b145e265f13  bitcoin-0.3.23-linux.tar.gz
 677 2011-06-25 04:31:45 <lfm> for sha1sum
 678 2011-06-25 04:33:59 <jgarzik> lfm: yep that matches sums posted in http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16553.msg215481#msg215481
 679 2011-06-25 04:34:06 Akiron has joined
 680 2011-06-25 04:34:52 <lfm> what has sacarlson got then I wonder, is it  a git version?
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 684 2011-06-25 04:36:16 <sacarlson> lfm: yes I'm using https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 685 2011-06-25 04:37:31 <sacarlson> oh IC your giving me the sha1 of the tar file no I was looking for the github checkout point
 686 2011-06-25 04:38:06 <lfm> sacarlson: k, see if you can try the tar file version
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 718 2011-06-25 05:57:08 <sacarlson> I found what I was doing wrong in my error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected real"} ,  I used an older version of bitcoind to do the communication on rpc,  I never realized that could change anything
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 725 2011-06-25 06:19:48 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r354b532 / (2 files in 2 dirs):
 726 2011-06-25 06:19:48 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Switched to an unholy union of the current kernel and phatk. Dear Lord,
 727 2011-06-25 06:19:48 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: forgive me for I have sinned. - http://bit.ly/mRLQKR
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 732 2011-06-25 06:26:51 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
 733 2011-06-25 06:26:52 <gribble> 133176
 734 2011-06-25 06:29:47 <jrmithdobbs> was just about to do that lol
 735 2011-06-25 06:29:59 <jrmithdobbs> status: blocks still too damned big
 736 2011-06-25 06:30:00 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
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 740 2011-06-25 06:38:16 <egecko> blocks prolly arent gonna be getting smaller ;)
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 788 2011-06-25 08:06:34 <egecko> aww bummer man, peter falk died
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 790 2011-06-25 08:13:07 <[Tycho]> Wow, first evil mining botnets :)
 791 2011-06-25 08:16:33 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: ?
 792 2011-06-25 08:17:28 <[Tycho]> Hello, jgarzik.
 793 2011-06-25 08:17:39 <[Tycho]> What's your question ?
 794 2011-06-25 08:17:57 <jgarzik> <[Tycho]> Wow, first evil mining botnets :)   <<--  to what do you refer?
 795 2011-06-25 08:19:45 <[Tycho]> To a some evil botnets that I detected this morning.
 796 2011-06-25 08:20:00 <[Tycho]> One is pretty impressive, peaking at 35 GH/s on CPUs.
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 801 2011-06-25 08:26:32 <[Tycho]> Are you scared ?
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 820 2011-06-25 09:10:59 <prof7bit> how do you detect botnets?
 821 2011-06-25 09:12:55 <prof7bit> or do you own them? ;-)
 822 2011-06-25 09:13:15 <doublec> sudden appearance of a ton of cpu's mining at the same time?
 823 2011-06-25 09:13:15 <prof7bit> and detect that they actually work?
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 826 2011-06-25 09:20:50 <[Tycho]> It's somewhat obvious when I see 5000 PCs on one worker account.
 827 2011-06-25 09:21:06 ox8o has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 828 2011-06-25 09:21:09 <[Tycho]> Well, it was 5000 five hours ago, now more.
 829 2011-06-25 09:21:47 <[Tycho]> Also, one of my users from russian forum catched a sample.
 830 2011-06-25 09:23:54 wolfspraul has joined
 831 2011-06-25 09:25:44 <sipa> nothing compared to the MM :)
 832 2011-06-25 09:26:30 airfox has joined
 833 2011-06-25 09:26:37 <[Tycho]> I think it's more than 10000 now.
 834 2011-06-25 09:29:44 gjs278 has joined
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 836 2011-06-25 09:33:13 <vegard> that's really interesting.
 837 2011-06-25 09:34:34 toddf has joined
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 840 2011-06-25 09:37:50 <[Tycho]> Also, his trojan is not really secure. He already wrote a message to me telling that someone changed his account password :)
 841 2011-06-25 09:39:16 Sedra has joined
 842 2011-06-25 09:41:19 <[Tycho]> Who is the owner of bitcoincharts ?
 843 2011-06-25 09:42:51 Sedra- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 845 2011-06-25 10:03:41 <prof7bit> maybe after 25 years successfully suppressing the evil part in me it is now time to rethink this and maybe join the dark side...
 846 2011-06-25 10:06:26 <wump> you're giving up your shining white armor?
 847 2011-06-25 10:07:10 * diki might have made a mistake
 848 2011-06-25 10:07:12 <diki> I thought that even when the diff was 7-8 million, blocks would still be found at the same place, however after the new diff, the blocks with <1mill shares have decreased...
 849 2011-06-25 10:07:28 <sipa> wump == wumpus?
 850 2011-06-25 10:07:36 <diki> blocks would still be found at the same place<-becasue of how pools work
 851 2011-06-25 10:07:40 <wump> yes
 852 2011-06-25 10:07:44 <diki> s/place/pace
 853 2011-06-25 10:07:44 Sedra has joined
 854 2011-06-25 10:07:58 <wump> hey my name changed
 855 2011-06-25 10:08:16 <sipa> what is the nInitialBlockThreshold = 10000 in your patch?
 856 2011-06-25 10:08:44 <wump> it is an arbitrary magic difference value, how recent a block needs to be to be called 'initial'
 857 2011-06-25 10:08:56 airfox has quit (Quit: Bye!)
 858 2011-06-25 10:09:19 <sipa> hmmm, ok
 859 2011-06-25 10:09:20 <wump> without such a thing, if the approximation would be close to the real thing, the client would claim to be in initial download mode forever
 860 2011-06-25 10:09:38 <sipa> the question is: if you've been offline for a day
 861 2011-06-25 10:10:01 <sipa> shouldn't the client switch to "initial download"-like mode to protect you from doing transactions with outdated data either?
 862 2011-06-25 10:10:04 <wump> yes it'd go into initial download mode again to sync up :) in my case it'd mean it shows a progress bar
 863 2011-06-25 10:10:06 <wump> yes
 864 2011-06-25 10:10:20 <wump> so 10000 is prob to much
 865 2011-06-25 10:10:34 <sipa> well, nInitialBlockTreshold should maybe be more like 144 (=1 day) ?
 866 2011-06-25 10:10:54 <sipa> and we shouldn't keep calling it "initial" download either, probably
 867 2011-06-25 10:11:01 <wump> that'd be better -- but I just erred on the safe site
 868 2011-06-25 10:11:13 <sipa> sure, i was just curious for the reason behind the constant
 869 2011-06-25 10:11:45 <wump> indeed, it would only be initial to the client startup.. not initial to the persistent instance
 870 2011-06-25 10:11:53 <sipa> maybe we can change it do "Synchronizing with block chain..." or something
 871 2011-06-25 10:12:05 <wump> good idea
 872 2011-06-25 10:12:12 <sipa> or even "Synchronizing with network..."
 873 2011-06-25 10:12:19 <wump> even better
 874 2011-06-25 10:12:21 <sipa> i really like the idea of a progress bar
 875 2011-06-25 10:12:41 <wump> yep it takes the guessing out of it
 876 2011-06-25 10:12:49 <wump> and makes it more like bittorrent :-)
 877 2011-06-25 10:13:02 <sipa> indeed
 878 2011-06-25 10:13:15 <prof7bit> "We have found that balances on some older accounts look significantly incorrect when compared with the old database. At this time we do not know [...]"  <-- LOL
 879 2011-06-25 10:13:43 <sipa> i wonder if "really old" means: from before mt acquired mtgox
 880 2011-06-25 10:14:43 <prof7bit> "No money is lost"
 881 2011-06-25 10:15:04 Sedra- has joined
 882 2011-06-25 10:16:58 <wump> yes he worded that really badly
 883 2011-06-25 10:17:15 <wump> I hope he restores my btc balance back to that time though ;)
 884 2011-06-25 10:17:48 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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 888 2011-06-25 10:20:45 <sipa> you can already check your balance on the site
 889 2011-06-25 10:20:51 <sipa> mine is definitely correct
 890 2011-06-25 10:23:04 <sipa> ;;later tell jgarzik how did you come up with the mixed sha512+sha256 key derivation function used in scratchcards? is it published/standardized anywher?
 891 2011-06-25 10:23:05 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 892 2011-06-25 10:25:01 nhodges has joined
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 894 2011-06-25 10:27:59 <wump> my balance is correct too
 895 2011-06-25 10:28:42 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 897 2011-06-25 10:32:33 Sedra- is now known as Sedra
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 903 2011-06-25 10:40:39 <sacarlson> does this guy groffer ever chat here?  the guy who created the escrow commit? https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/commit/83707c8dd4573bb958f9e504fb6263c8fa1ef942  if so do we know what he uses as a nick here?
 904 2011-06-25 10:40:53 <sacarlson> ;;lastseen groffer
 905 2011-06-25 10:40:54 <gribble> Error: "lastseen" is not a valid command.
 906 2011-06-25 10:45:52 <picci> sacarlson: ;;seen is the command
 907 2011-06-25 10:46:05 <sacarlson> ;;seen groffer
 908 2011-06-25 10:46:05 <gribble> groffer was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 0 days, 8 hours, 45 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <groffer> if you have time to review my code, I'd be happy for any comments
 909 2011-06-25 10:46:14 <sacarlson> picci: thanks
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 916 2011-06-25 11:00:29 <yorick> what is the amount of listtransactions calls I can make every second?
 917 2011-06-25 11:03:56 <yorick> also, does "listreceivedbyaddress" only list things once there are confirmations?
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 926 2011-06-25 11:09:16 <yorick> what is the difference between listreceivedbyaddress and listtransactions?
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 928 2011-06-25 11:12:42 <Happy0> listtransactions includes send transactions, amirite, yorick?
 929 2011-06-25 11:12:52 <yorick> hrm, that might be true
 930 2011-06-25 11:12:57 <yorick> but then the name is confusing
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 939 2011-06-25 11:32:45 <carli2> hi, how can i transfer a private key - public key pair from one computer to an other?
 940 2011-06-25 11:34:29 <sipa> for now, the only way is moving wallet files (and there are always risks in doing so)
 941 2011-06-25 11:34:52 <sipa> i have a patch that can export a private key using RPC
 942 2011-06-25 11:34:57 <sipa> and import it again elsewhere
 943 2011-06-25 11:35:30 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 945 2011-06-25 11:37:31 <carli2> how hard is it to crack a private key? do you think it will be crackable in 2033?
 946 2011-06-25 11:38:22 <vegard> no
 947 2011-06-25 11:39:15 weinerk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 948 2011-06-25 11:41:57 <erus`> yes it will
 949 2011-06-25 11:42:28 <erus`> its crackable now
 950 2011-06-25 11:42:33 <erus`> just not cost effective
 951 2011-06-25 11:44:55 weinerk has joined
 952 2011-06-25 11:50:03 <Sebastan> in chatlog I have read that finding a valid block will result in 50btc always. Is that correct? If so how does this match the 10 minute timespan? Are the 10 mins only a value that is targetted so that the difficulty is changed to reach 10 mins?
 953 2011-06-25 11:51:13 sanchaz has joined
 954 2011-06-25 11:51:14 <jtaylor> yes a block is 50btc for the solver and yes difficulty changes so one gets created every 10 min on average
 955 2011-06-25 11:51:33 MasterChief has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 957 2011-06-25 11:52:32 <Sebastan> and who is calculating the difficulty? I mean if its not zentralized in some way everyone would have different values isnt it?
 958 2011-06-25 11:52:50 <sipa> Sebastan: it's a simple formula that's directly calculated from the block chain
 959 2011-06-25 11:53:01 <sipa> since everyone has the same block chain, everyone finds the same number
 960 2011-06-25 11:53:50 <sipa> erus`: it'd require at least 2^128 attempts
 961 2011-06-25 11:55:09 <Sebastan> ok... so if someone has the last found block (found itself or got it from the network) he has the exact difficulty too...
 962 2011-06-25 11:55:52 <sipa> the difficulty of each block is strictly determined by the previous blocks in the same chain, so there is no problem
 963 2011-06-25 11:56:10 <sipa> erus`: that would take 10^18 years with the current bitcoin mining hardware
 964 2011-06-25 11:56:35 <erus`> what about every computer in the world
 965 2011-06-25 11:56:35 <sipa> if one attempt took as long as a bitcoin mining double-sha256 (it's a lot more, i believe), that is
 966 2011-06-25 11:56:51 <sipa> maybe 10^14 years?
 967 2011-06-25 11:57:31 <erus`> what about spending 5 years creating so much special hardware that it only takes 10 years
 968 2011-06-25 11:57:40 <erus`> checkmate.
 969 2011-06-25 11:57:43 RobboNZ has joined
 970 2011-06-25 11:58:15 <sipa> try as you may
 971 2011-06-25 11:58:44 <Sebastan> and even though its said its unlikely that more than one people work on the same branch what happens when 2 miners find a matching hash nearly at the same time and give themselfes the 50btc then probably the one wins that propagates faster? having a earlier timestamp included wouldnt matter...
 972 2011-06-25 11:59:10 <jtaylor> one of the solutions will be invalid
 973 2011-06-25 11:59:29 [quiksilver] has joined
 974 2011-06-25 12:00:05 <Sebastan> invalid? cant there be more than one solution that is below difficulty? or do you mean one is taken as invalid because the first propagated his result faster?
 975 2011-06-25 12:00:18 <sipa> Sebastan: the block chain is actually a block tree
 976 2011-06-25 12:00:38 <sipa> if two people find the next block simulateneously, you get a split in the chain
 977 2011-06-25 12:00:44 noagendamarket has joined
 978 2011-06-25 12:00:52 <sipa> and part of the network will continue working on one side, and another part on the other
 979 2011-06-25 12:00:55 <sipa> that is no problem
 980 2011-06-25 12:01:13 <sipa> as soon as one of those finds a new block, that will becomes the new best, and win everywhere
 981 2011-06-25 12:02:01 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 982 2011-06-25 12:05:15 [quiksilver] has quit (Quit: [quiksilver])
 983 2011-06-25 12:05:48 <carli2> does the network stay splittet then?
 984 2011-06-25 12:06:10 <minus> *split
 985 2011-06-25 12:06:21 <minus> (yes, i love correcting people)
 986 2011-06-25 12:06:42 * carli2 thanks minus and loves to improve his language skills
 987 2011-06-25 12:08:17 <sipa> 13:59:57 < sipa> as soon as one of those finds a new block, that will becomes the new best, and win everywhere
 988 2011-06-25 12:08:29 <sipa> -s
 989 2011-06-25 12:08:47 <sipa> the rule is: accept the first best block you see as master
 990 2011-06-25 12:09:22 <sipa> so if two nodes find a same successor block at the same time, they will both be equally good, and nodes will assume the one they saw first is the best
 991 2011-06-25 12:09:57 <sipa> but as soon as one of the chains gets extended, it is strickly better than the other chain, and a "reorganization" happens in the other chain
 992 2011-06-25 12:10:31 <Sebastan> sipa: so only one client will keep his 50 btc? or will both get them?
 993 2011-06-25 12:10:38 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 995 2011-06-25 12:10:48 <sipa> only the one whose chain gets extended gets the reward
 996 2011-06-25 12:11:01 DukeOfURL has joined
 997 2011-06-25 12:11:04 <sipa> and the unlucky one's block doesn't exist anymore in the chain that eventually wins
 998 2011-06-25 12:11:14 <sipa> so there is nothing left to give him a reward
 999 2011-06-25 12:11:41 <Sebastan> i thought it would become a new branch.
1000 2011-06-25 12:13:01 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1001 2011-06-25 12:13:09 <Sebastan> but then again when 2 clients find a block at the same time the one will win that first gets the network to think he was first...
1002 2011-06-25 12:13:42 <sipa> well both get the reward in the chain they themselves consider best, obviously
1003 2011-06-25 12:13:56 <sipa> only after a while the fork is resolved, and one of them wins, overwriting the other
1004 2011-06-25 12:15:32 <carli2> so can i branch from an earlier block and find enough blocks to become better than the current tip?
1005 2011-06-25 12:18:35 <sipa> yes, if you have more than 50% of the network computing power
1006 2011-06-25 12:20:14 <Sebastan> sipa: so when i would work on my own branch i could raise the chance to keep my money... so a poolowner could let his miners work on his branch to ensure that his branch will win and he keeps the money while the other one would lost his btcs.
1007 2011-06-25 12:20:45 <sipa> he can't keep that up unless he has close to 50% of the network power
1008 2011-06-25 12:21:15 <sipa> but it's a known and possible attack, yes
1009 2011-06-25 12:21:21 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1010 2011-06-25 12:21:39 <Sebastan> why is that? i mean only one of these 2 branches can survive. and one survive when a new block is found in it isnt it?
1011 2011-06-25 12:22:00 <sipa> the longest one survives
1012 2011-06-25 12:22:12 <Sebastan> ok...
1013 2011-06-25 12:22:20 <sipa> if the rest of the world works on the longest chain, and you work on your own, you'll never keep up with the rest
1014 2011-06-25 12:22:26 <sipa> unless you're close to 50%
1015 2011-06-25 12:23:42 commonlisp has joined
1016 2011-06-25 12:24:27 <Sebastan> sipa: I thought i have read in http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Block.java#210 that you can try to find a block for every part of the tree. But what you say sounds like you only have a chance to earn money with mining when you work on the longest chain...
1017 2011-06-25 12:24:48 commonlisp has quit (Client Quit)
1018 2011-06-25 12:24:53 <Sebastan> line-number doesnt match...
1019 2011-06-25 12:25:05 <sipa> of course you can try everywhere
1020 2011-06-25 12:25:25 <sipa> and if you consider your own block the best tip, then in your own view of the world, you'll be rich
1021 2011-06-25 12:25:39 <sipa> but you need to get the rest of the world to agree with you if you want to be able to spend it
1022 2011-06-25 12:25:41 <Sebastan> *lol*
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1028 2011-06-25 12:29:09 falcnor-away is now known as falcnor
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1030 2011-06-25 12:30:25 <Sebastan> sipa:what you say sounds to me like when the speed with that you interact with the network is more important than I thought... because your best chance to find a valid block would be to get the possibly last valid block in the chain fast as hell to work on it and to spread it into the net as fast as you can again. if so it sounds to me like there are possibilities to raise your chances...
1031 2011-06-25 12:30:34 Soak has joined
1032 2011-06-25 12:30:36 falcnor is now known as falcnor-away
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1036 2011-06-25 12:32:59 <sipa> Sebastan: you're right
1037 2011-06-25 12:33:39 <Sebastan> sipa: finally it looks like I understand the thing a bit... ;)
1038 2011-06-25 12:34:46 joepie91 has joined
1039 2011-06-25 12:37:44 <kika_> where is magicaltux?
1040 2011-06-25 12:38:01 <MagicalTux> here
1041 2011-06-25 12:38:10 gim has joined
1042 2011-06-25 12:38:33 <kika_> MagicalTux: can you restore my mtgox account? because it sent me a link telling me that the proof i provided is not enough, so i just submitted more proof
1043 2011-06-25 12:38:45 <kika_> MagicalTux: i hope my account be restored soon :)
1044 2011-06-25 12:39:14 <MagicalTux> kika_: there's 200ish accounts pending verification, unfortunately I'm kind of busy right now
1045 2011-06-25 12:39:44 <kika_> MagicalTux: so only 200 accounts pending vertification? or 2000 or 20000 ?
1046 2011-06-25 12:39:54 <kika_> i dont know what the ish means sorry hehe
1047 2011-06-25 12:39:57 <MagicalTux> 200
1048 2011-06-25 12:40:04 <MagicalTux> "ish" means "about"
1049 2011-06-25 12:40:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> my balance is below 0
1050 2011-06-25 12:40:15 <BitcoinForNewegg> :(
1051 2011-06-25 12:40:43 <sipa> MagicalTux: opening is still planned for GMT 15:00 ?
1052 2011-06-25 12:41:32 <kika_> MagicalTux: i see so my account is on the list of those 200 accounts, i hope it be restored soon, otherwise ill let you know
1053 2011-06-25 12:41:59 <BitcoinForNewegg> wow u are doing them by hand? good luck
1054 2011-06-25 12:42:09 <kika_> MagicalTux: i provieded valid proof so i dont know really why you guys are not re-opening it
1055 2011-06-25 12:42:11 misterpurrr has joined
1056 2011-06-25 12:42:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> what if someone else provided valid proof
1057 2011-06-25 12:42:45 <kika_> MagicalTux: i think a link sent to my email to allow me change my mtgox password would be eh enough proof that im the owner of the email address and mtgox account
1058 2011-06-25 12:42:49 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1059 2011-06-25 12:42:54 <BitcoinForNewegg> woudl you rather he just randomly pick one to give ur account too?
1060 2011-06-25 12:43:14 <dinox> hmm, how do you see diff between pushes at github?
1061 2011-06-25 12:43:18 <kika_> BitcoinForNewegg: no, because im the only owner of my email address i only have access there
1062 2011-06-25 12:43:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> what if u used same password for email as for mtgox, or a simple one
1063 2011-06-25 12:43:34 <kika_> BitcoinForNewegg: if mtgox sends an email to my email address that that proves that its me
1064 2011-06-25 12:43:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> how woudl he know ur email wasent hacked
1065 2011-06-25 12:43:58 <kika_> BitcoinForNewegg: i dont use the same password for different accounts
1066 2011-06-25 12:44:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> just saying, some delays might be well needed
1067 2011-06-25 12:44:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> but he doesnt know that
1068 2011-06-25 12:44:09 <dinox> like, if I want to see diff c8bbe75...bc0cc85 in sipa's pushes
1069 2011-06-25 12:44:58 <sipa> dinox: "git diff c8bbe75...bc0cc85"
1070 2011-06-25 12:48:44 <dinox> thanks sipa, that implies being in showwallet branch?
1071 2011-06-25 12:49:12 <sipa> no
1072 2011-06-25 12:49:28 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1073 2011-06-25 12:51:41 <dinox> sipa: ah, you need whole id: git diff c774b1697690c3f94ccd...bc0cc8581e67d32f2d3f
1074 2011-06-25 12:51:50 <dinox> great work btw
1075 2011-06-25 12:52:03 <sipa> works fine with just the 6 first hex characters here
1076 2011-06-25 12:52:09 <vegard> try .. instead of ... ?
1077 2011-06-25 12:52:34 erus` has joined
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1080 2011-06-25 12:54:15 oozyburglar has joined
1081 2011-06-25 12:57:16 <dinox> hmm, yeah worked with first 6 hex chars now
1082 2011-06-25 12:58:07 <sipa> dinox: you still have the problem with the incorrect balances with the current showwallet branch?
1083 2011-06-25 13:01:24 <dinox> 1 min, I need to test your current update
1084 2011-06-25 13:05:29 <ericmock> vragnaroda: you around?
1085 2011-06-25 13:05:47 <vragnaroda> yes
1086 2011-06-25 13:06:20 knotwork has joined
1087 2011-06-25 13:06:57 <ericmock> hey, I learned something that might affect you....  I was using db5.1 which is not backwards compatible with db4.8 which the other mac clients use
1088 2011-06-25 13:07:59 <ericmock> were you able to go back to wxbitcoin?
1089 2011-06-25 13:08:37 <vragnaroda> ericmock: not at first; i copied the wallet and got rid of the other stuff
1090 2011-06-25 13:08:55 <vragnaroda> then it re-dl'd the blockchain and everything worked
1091 2011-06-25 13:09:03 <ericmock> sorry about that.
1092 2011-06-25 13:09:21 <vragnaroda> ericmock: that's ok; that's what happens with alpha software
1093 2011-06-25 13:09:26 <ericmock> I didn't realize that 5.1 what clandestinely upgrade the db
1094 2011-06-25 13:09:49 pmazur has joined
1095 2011-06-25 13:10:26 <ericmock> so, wallet.dat was not affected?  or you have used a copy of it?
1096 2011-06-25 13:10:36 <vragnaroda> one of the many reasons i think there should be a separate bitcoinlib (preferably in C or something)
1097 2011-06-25 13:10:55 <ericmock> yea.
1098 2011-06-25 13:10:56 <vragnaroda> ericmock: i had another copy of the wallet
1099 2011-06-25 13:11:13 <ericmock> okay, good...  that's what I was mostly worried about
1100 2011-06-25 13:12:24 <vragnaroda> (an ada implementation of bitcoin would be interesting)
1101 2011-06-25 13:12:52 TheAncientGoat has joined
1102 2011-06-25 13:13:51 <dinox> sipa: Can you give me a privkey and corresponding address to import? I can't get the merge working with my removeprivkey function
1103 2011-06-25 13:13:59 ar4s has joined
1104 2011-06-25 13:14:22 <dinox> and without that I cant generate an address without including it in wallet
1105 2011-06-25 13:14:49 RobboNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1107 2011-06-25 13:15:20 <dinox> *testnet-keys* of course
1108 2011-06-25 13:17:01 <sipa> dinox: you run a second instance :)
1109 2011-06-25 13:17:04 <sipa> *can
1110 2011-06-25 13:17:30 <sipa> and i don't have any testnet funds here
1111 2011-06-25 13:18:22 <dinox> hmm, I'll try that
1112 2011-06-25 13:18:59 <sipa> also, is testnet usable to test with? (not sure about how often blocks are found there)
1113 2011-06-25 13:19:14 <dinox> btw, you have added the pwalletMain stuff, I'm a java dev and not c++ dev, can you explain what that means?
1114 2011-06-25 13:19:28 <dinox> sipa: I think it works, it did yesterday
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1116 2011-06-25 13:20:32 <sipa> well, i added a CWallet class to bundle all wallet operations and data structures (instead of a ton of globals)
1117 2011-06-25 13:20:46 <sipa> now rpc and gui still need a 'the wallet' to interact with
1118 2011-06-25 13:20:57 <sipa> pwalletMain is a pointer to 'the wallet' :)
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1120 2011-06-25 13:21:07 <dinox> ah
1121 2011-06-25 13:21:23 <sipa> eventually, when gui and rpc becomes nice classes themselves, they'll carry their own pwallet in a field, instead of this global
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1126 2011-06-25 13:23:14 <sipa> dinox: how do you mean you think it works?
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1128 2011-06-25 13:23:54 <sipa> yesterday the same version was online as a few weeks ago, so if that caused incorrect balances for you, it should still have carried the bug yesterday
1129 2011-06-25 13:24:07 <dubbz82> so
1130 2011-06-25 13:24:24 <dubbz82> i quick hacked up a c# program to pull data from the tradehill api
1131 2011-06-25 13:24:26 <dinox> It's the stuff with pointers I'm not completely confident with... I guess I get used to it
1132 2011-06-25 13:24:28 <dubbz82> i just gotta parse it up
1133 2011-06-25 13:24:35 <dubbz82> and make it into a useful program
1134 2011-06-25 13:24:36 <dubbz82> :P
1135 2011-06-25 13:24:57 <dinox> sipa: Yeah, the update was quite big
1136 2011-06-25 13:24:59 segfault64 has joined
1137 2011-06-25 13:25:16 <dubbz82> downside to that, is i gotta get going to work...so i won't be able to hack that out later
1138 2011-06-25 13:27:37 <ericmock> I'm trying to figure out more about this db5.1 vs. db4.8 issue...
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1140 2011-06-25 13:28:03 <ericmock> if I do a db_dump on database files created with either version it shows VERSION=3
1141 2011-06-25 13:28:55 <ericmock> I'm assume '3' is the database format, and would have expected different versions
1142 2011-06-25 13:30:03 segfault64 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1143 2011-06-25 13:30:05 <vegard> is it possible for the same bitcoin address to have two (or more) base58 representations by adding/removing leading (trailing) zeroes?
1144 2011-06-25 13:30:13 <sipa> no
1145 2011-06-25 13:30:31 <sipa> that would change the number of bytes its decoded form has
1146 2011-06-25 13:30:49 <vegard> but the decoded form is just a number, isn't it?
1147 2011-06-25 13:30:59 <sipa> no, it's a byte vector
1148 2011-06-25 13:31:06 <sipa> with a known length
1149 2011-06-25 13:31:15 <sipa> and this length must be 25 bytes for an address
1150 2011-06-25 13:32:04 <vegard> in the bitcoin code it seems to be a CBigNum which is converted to/from a byte array
1151 2011-06-25 13:32:31 <sipa> yes
1152 2011-06-25 13:32:47 <sipa> but adding a '1' in front, will add 0-byte to the decoded byte array
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1169 2011-06-25 13:54:36 <aristidesfl> ericmock: its a trojar
1170 2011-06-25 13:54:38 <aristidesfl> trojan
1171 2011-06-25 13:55:09 <ericmock> eh? 5.1...  those Berkeley bastards...  hmm, but I'm one of them ;-)
1172 2011-06-25 13:55:42 dvide has joined
1173 2011-06-25 13:56:16 <aristidesfl> ericmock: is it opensource?
1174 2011-06-25 13:58:09 Beremat has joined
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1176 2011-06-25 13:59:14 <chmod755> ;;seen gavinandresen
1177 2011-06-25 13:59:15 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 19 hours, 16 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> x6763: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9495.0
1178 2011-06-25 14:02:36 <dinox> sipa: Ok got my function to work now but getbalance still showing incorrect amount
1179 2011-06-25 14:02:58 <dinox> restart bitcoind and getbalance is correct
1180 2011-06-25 14:03:18 djoot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1181 2011-06-25 14:03:49 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1182 2011-06-25 14:04:19 <dinox> It's like this: getbalance=0->importprivkey ...->getbalance=0
1183 2011-06-25 14:04:21 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1184 2011-06-25 14:04:35 <dinox> ->restart bitcoind->getbalance=10
1185 2011-06-25 14:04:38 molecular has joined
1186 2011-06-25 14:05:15 <sipa> dinox: and getbalance "*" ?
1187 2011-06-25 14:05:41 <dinox> that shows correct amount entire time
1188 2011-06-25 14:06:10 <dinox> but since sendtoaddress uses GetBalance(), I cant send funds
1189 2011-06-25 14:06:56 Faraday has joined
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1191 2011-06-25 14:07:15 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r8aba968 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Further fixes - http://bit.ly/iVTQXn
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1196 2011-06-25 14:10:38 <dinox> sipa: Here is the removeprivkey commit: https://github.com/dinox/bitcoin/commit/dcf6f4066584e81e041d98ff89397d87153a3046
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1200 2011-06-25 14:10:55 <dinox> which has the same bug as your importprivkey
1201 2011-06-25 14:11:51 <sipa> before the import, is there *any* tx in the wallet?
1202 2011-06-25 14:12:35 call-cc has joined
1203 2011-06-25 14:13:05 <dinox> sipa: no
1204 2011-06-25 14:13:27 <dinox> listtransactions returns empty array
1205 2011-06-25 14:13:31 NickelBot has joined
1206 2011-06-25 14:14:19 <sipa> after import, how many confirmations to your tx?
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1208 2011-06-25 14:14:28 <dinox> 344
1209 2011-06-25 14:15:28 <sipa> does using importwallet have the same problem?
1210 2011-06-25 14:15:51 <dinox> sipa: I haven't tried that
1211 2011-06-25 14:16:51 <sipa> so, create a file with as contents: '{"keys":[{"sec":"5..."}]}', and pass that filename to ./bitcoin importwallet <filename>
1212 2011-06-25 14:20:23 <dinox> sipa: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/419137/
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1214 2011-06-25 14:21:09 <sipa> so, same problem?
1215 2011-06-25 14:21:15 <dinox> yep
1216 2011-06-25 14:22:02 <dinox> restart fixes it here too
1217 2011-06-25 14:22:32 <kika_> does anyone know how i can mark bad sectors on a hard disk ? i want to basically mark those bad sectors as wrong so i can continue using the hard disk
1218 2011-06-25 14:23:11 <andyfletcher> if you are getting bad sectors the disk is on the way out. Bad sector counts will rapidly increase
1219 2011-06-25 14:23:18 <sipa> kika_: if your hard drive is less than 10 years old,  it will do that automatically, and start using spare sectors
1220 2011-06-25 14:23:33 <sipa> if you still see them, it has run out of spare sectors and you should throw the drive away
1221 2011-06-25 14:23:37 <kika_> sipe: yes it uses SMART
1222 2011-06-25 14:23:51 <kika_> sipa: it uses SMART right?
1223 2011-06-25 14:24:02 <sipa> smart is a way to query that information yes
1224 2011-06-25 14:24:03 <kika_> sipe: why throw the drive away?
1225 2011-06-25 14:24:07 bliket has joined
1226 2011-06-25 14:24:31 <sipa> because it will soon become worse
1227 2011-06-25 14:24:47 <kika_> sipa: seems like it ran out of spare sectors i think because linux is throwing me the SMART bad sectors warning, it says the hd has many bad sectors, backup data and replace disk
1228 2011-06-25 14:24:56 <sipa> kika_: then do so
1229 2011-06-25 14:24:58 <kika_> sipa: isnt anything i can do to continue using the disk ?
1230 2011-06-25 14:25:05 <sipa> you can, but it's very risky
1231 2011-06-25 14:25:17 <kika_> sipa: what risk? i dont mind to format
1232 2011-06-25 14:25:27 <sipa> no, risk losing your data
1233 2011-06-25 14:25:34 <ericmock> I swapped libdb5.1 for libdb4.8 and now I get Bitcoin: Error loading addr.dat; Error loading blkindex.dat; Error loading wallet.dat
1234 2011-06-25 14:25:36 <sipa> some filesystems have a way for marking sectors as bad
1235 2011-06-25 14:25:36 <kika_> sipa: i dont have any valuable data
1236 2011-06-25 14:25:41 erus` has joined
1237 2011-06-25 14:25:45 <ericmock> even though those are the files freshly created
1238 2011-06-25 14:25:47 <kika_> sipa: on linux you know how i can do that?
1239 2011-06-25 14:26:01 <edcba> not having valuable data ???
1240 2011-06-25 14:26:09 <kika_> sipa: i dont mind if i loose data, i dont have any data on it, i can just format it
1241 2011-06-25 14:26:13 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
1242 2011-06-25 14:26:26 <kika_> sipa: i just have a fresh fedora install on it
1243 2011-06-25 14:26:27 <edcba> the problem is that it may corrupt os silently
1244 2011-06-25 14:26:40 Gonzago has joined
1245 2011-06-25 14:26:45 <kika_> i had to reinstall fedora because i wasnt able to boot it anymore
1246 2011-06-25 14:26:51 <sipa> dinox: can you modify CWallet::GetBalance() is wallet.cpp to print out pcoin->IsFinal,->IsConfirmed and ->GetAvailableCredit ?
1247 2011-06-25 14:26:55 <sipa> *in
1248 2011-06-25 14:26:58 <kika_> probably because the os got corrupt silently
1249 2011-06-25 14:26:58 <ericmock> I think this might be why I moved to libdb5.1 in the first place.  Anyone have any idea what the problem might be?
1250 2011-06-25 14:27:30 <sipa> dinox: i'd like to know why those tx's aren't counted while they are obviously in the wallet
1251 2011-06-25 14:27:47 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1252 2011-06-25 14:28:31 <edcba> not booting anymore is not what i called 'silent' :)
1253 2011-06-25 14:28:46 <ericmock> this db crap is pissing me off...  I'm moving back to 5.1
1254 2011-06-25 14:29:35 <dinox> sipa: sure
1255 2011-06-25 14:32:38 erus` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1258 2011-06-25 14:40:02 <sipa> dinox: any result?
1259 2011-06-25 14:41:54 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rc4ed37f / src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl : Final fix, frakenkernel isa go - http://bit.ly/lneY9A
1260 2011-06-25 14:42:06 <vegard> so it seems to me that if you pushed the signature using OP_PUSHDATA, then bitcoin would not be able to verify it correctly
1261 2011-06-25 14:42:24 <sipa> why not?
1262 2011-06-25 14:42:42 <vegard> because it does: scriptCode.FindAndDelete(CScript(vchSig));
1263 2011-06-25 14:43:01 <vegard> let me refine my statement. if you push a signature of
1264 2011-06-25 14:43:16 <sipa> ah right
1265 2011-06-25 14:43:22 <vegard> ~75 bytes using OP_PUSHDATA*, then CScript(vchSig) would not use the OP_PUSHDATA opcode
1266 2011-06-25 14:43:26 <sipa> indeed
1267 2011-06-25 14:43:48 <sipa> that findanddelete hack is really horrible
1268 2011-06-25 14:43:51 <dinox> sipa: no, I cant get it to write out anything
1269 2011-06-25 14:44:08 <sipa> dinox: also nothing in debug.log ?
1270 2011-06-25 14:44:10 <dinox> i run it with -debug flag and tail -f debug.log
1271 2011-06-25 14:44:13 <dinox> no
1272 2011-06-25 14:44:57 <sipa> could you paste the code you added?
1273 2011-06-25 14:45:00 <vegard> I suppose there should be some sort of test suite for this kind of thing. not so much to test bitcoin, but to test other implementations
1274 2011-06-25 14:45:32 <sipa> dinox: sorry i'm not helping to do the test myself, but i'm kinda doing other things as well now
1275 2011-06-25 14:45:47 BlueMattBot has joined
1276 2011-06-25 14:46:22 <dinox> sipa: np, I want to learn some on the way too
1277 2011-06-25 14:47:28 <sipa> anyway, it's hard to believe getbalance isn't called or doesn't perform the loop over wallet transactions, and listtransactions shows they are there
1278 2011-06-25 14:47:46 <sipa> so i'd like to see how you tried to output those pcoin properties
1279 2011-06-25 14:51:41 <dinox> sipa: printf("GetBalance() %s %s %s",pcoin->IsFinal(),pcoin->IsConfirmed(),pcoin->GetAvailableCredit());
1280 2011-06-25 14:52:08 <dinox> at line 560 in wallet.cpp
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1282 2011-06-25 14:52:42 <sipa> line numbers are hard to match up
1283 2011-06-25 14:53:10 <dinox> sipa: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/419148/
1284 2011-06-25 14:53:45 <sipa> try turning that into %i %i %llu
1285 2011-06-25 14:53:53 <sipa> the returned things aren't strings
1286 2011-06-25 14:54:35 <dinox> hmm, it seems to work when I'm not using testnet
1287 2011-06-25 14:55:02 <sipa> define "work"?
1288 2011-06-25 14:55:30 <dinox> debug output*
1289 2011-06-25 14:55:33 Netto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1290 2011-06-25 14:55:59 <sipa> eh?
1291 2011-06-25 14:56:03 Netto has joined
1292 2011-06-25 14:57:09 <dinox> ie, bitcoind actually writes anything to debug.log when running ./bitcoind -debug -daemon but not when running ./bitcoind -debug -daemon -testnet
1293 2011-06-25 14:57:46 Lenovo01 has joined
1294 2011-06-25 14:58:34 <sipa> are you looking at the right debug.log ?
1295 2011-06-25 14:59:36 <dinox> damn, testnet has separate dir, right?
1296 2011-06-25 14:59:45 gsathya has joined
1297 2011-06-25 15:00:00 <sipa> yes
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1300 2011-06-25 15:00:53 <sipa> subdir 'testnet' of the real directory
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1302 2011-06-25 15:03:25 <dinox> okay, I get "GetBalance() 1 1 0"
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1304 2011-06-25 15:03:55 <dinox> on each of the 2 txes
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1313 2011-06-25 15:08:04 <sipa> dinox: in CWallet::AddToWallet() in wallet.cpp, above '// Write to disk', add the line: "if (fInsertedNew) wtx.MarkDirty();"
1314 2011-06-25 15:08:39 trolololo__ is now known as xelister
1315 2011-06-25 15:09:32 <dinox> sipa: okay, compiling...
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1319 2011-06-25 15:12:55 <dinox> sipa: Same result, getbalance=0 and "GetBalance() 1 1 0"
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1321 2011-06-25 15:13:27 <sipa> ok, can you also output pcoin->GetCredit() ?
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1323 2011-06-25 15:13:45 <dinox> sure
1324 2011-06-25 15:14:00 <dinox> btw, why doesn't it rescan from genesisblock?
1325 2011-06-25 15:14:00 <dinox> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/419165/
1326 2011-06-25 15:14:37 <sipa> heh?
1327 2011-06-25 15:15:27 <sipa> oh, that's at startup
1328 2011-06-25 15:15:42 <badmanu> shouldnt mt.gox be online for 14 minutes now? did i miss something?
1329 2011-06-25 15:16:02 <sipa> dinox: the rescan done by importprivkey isn't reported
1330 2011-06-25 15:16:19 <dinox> sipa: But I'm using importwallet now
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1334 2011-06-25 15:17:03 <sipa> oh, right
1335 2011-06-25 15:17:36 <sipa> if the dumpfile doesn't contain information about block heights, it assumes there are no former transactions, and it won't rescan
1336 2011-06-25 15:17:43 <sipa> can you test with importprivkey too?
1337 2011-06-25 15:18:33 k^^ has joined
1338 2011-06-25 15:18:51 <dinox> yeah, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/419168/
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1346 2011-06-25 15:21:27 <JRWR> it sure is taking some time for a encrypted wallet.dat feature to come into main branch
1347 2011-06-25 15:22:17 <sipa> JRWR: we're working on it
1348 2011-06-25 15:22:26 <sipa> dinox: just to be sure, pcoin->GetAvailableCredit(false) and pcoin->GetCredit(false) ?
1349 2011-06-25 15:23:12 <JRWR> sipa: if you need a win32 beta tester, I have a strange way of always finding little bugs in the system :)
1350 2011-06-25 15:23:15 <erus`> JRWR: how is the wallet encrypted? does the user have to type a password when they start bitcoin?
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1353 2011-06-25 15:23:40 <sipa> erus`: yes
1354 2011-06-25 15:23:41 <BlueMatt> JRWR: well, Im rewriting it, and since I just got back from vacation, it means its gonna take a bit
1355 2011-06-25 15:23:49 <BlueMatt> (well, Im just starting rewrite today)
1356 2011-06-25 15:23:54 <BlueMatt> well, rewrite #2
1357 2011-06-25 15:23:57 <erus`> sipa:  how long would that take to crack?
1358 2011-06-25 15:24:09 <JRWR> erus`: thats up to the devs, but i could see it being a timeout to reencrypt
1359 2011-06-25 15:24:17 <BlueMatt> erus`: the idea if you have to enter password at send-time
1360 2011-06-25 15:24:29 <sipa> erus`: if your password is secure, cracking will be very hard
1361 2011-06-25 15:24:31 <BlueMatt> or you can enter password once on rpc, and tell it to store it for x seconds
1362 2011-06-25 15:24:50 <erus`> that sounds like a good feature
1363 2011-06-25 15:25:00 <erus`> back to my telnet bitcoin bank :)
1364 2011-06-25 15:25:12 <JRWR> lol
1365 2011-06-25 15:25:25 <JRWR> erus`: anon SSH? or pure telnet?
1366 2011-06-25 15:25:52 <dinox> sipa: wtf... it seems working now
1367 2011-06-25 15:25:53 <erus`> pure telnet. resistant to css/sql injection and more
1368 2011-06-25 15:26:04 <JRWR> what about sniffing?
1369 2011-06-25 15:26:21 <erus`> dont let people sniff your connection
1370 2011-06-25 15:26:21 <JRWR> telnet is send in the clear, no one will like that
1371 2011-06-25 15:26:22 <sipa> dinox: that's possible, that false means it should disregard the cached value, and recompute it
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1373 2011-06-25 15:26:43 <dinox> ah, I think we have it there then
1374 2011-06-25 15:26:50 Kiba` has joined
1375 2011-06-25 15:27:09 <dinox> both import and remove seems to work fine now
1376 2011-06-25 15:27:12 <JRWR> erus`: you should be able to make a anon ssh session,
1377 2011-06-25 15:27:32 <JRWR> erus`: its why SSL exists :)
1378 2011-06-25 15:27:52 <erus`> jrwr im gonna make a website in the end but for now im just setting up a telnet thing to make sure it work
1379 2011-06-25 15:27:56 <erus`> ssh is a good idea
1380 2011-06-25 15:28:43 <JRWR> the website is where you can set password or give pubkey
1381 2011-06-25 15:28:53 <JRWR> I would op for default to pubkey
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1386 2011-06-25 15:32:09 <Kiba`> hey guys
1387 2011-06-25 15:32:12 <Kiba`> got a funny comic for ya
1388 2011-06-25 15:32:21 <Kiba`> http://www.bitcoinweekly.com/comics/bitsquirrel
1389 2011-06-25 15:32:26 <Kiba`> Bitsquirrel!
1390 2011-06-25 15:32:28 rusty has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1391 2011-06-25 15:32:44 <wump> lol Kiba`
1392 2011-06-25 15:32:51 lumos has joined
1393 2011-06-25 15:33:12 lumos has left ()
1394 2011-06-25 15:33:22 Kiba` is now known as kiba
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1397 2011-06-25 15:34:03 <erus`> lol
1398 2011-06-25 15:34:51 <kika_> does anyone know how i can shutdown x on fedora 14 ?
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1402 2011-06-25 15:39:13 <kiba> wump, erus`: maybe you guys should donate some bitcents http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22023.0
1403 2011-06-25 15:39:26 <wump> yep i will
1404 2011-06-25 15:39:35 <erus`> i have 0.011 bitcoins
1405 2011-06-25 15:39:50 <erus`> and that took me days, so i cant donate anything yet
1406 2011-06-25 15:41:36 <JFK911> MagicalTux: nice ticker.php; firefox wants to 'save as'
1407 2011-06-25 15:41:57 <JRWR> save it
1408 2011-06-25 15:41:57 <wump> kiba: done
1409 2011-06-25 15:42:02 <JRWR> and steal db password
1410 2011-06-25 15:42:16 <erus`> hurrr
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1424 2011-06-25 16:00:13 <upb> sup
1425 2011-06-25 16:02:02 <kiba> upb: you see my bitcoin comic?
1426 2011-06-25 16:02:24 <ericmock> libdb sux
1427 2011-06-25 16:02:39 <upb> looking :)
1428 2011-06-25 16:03:12 Teslah has joined
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1430 2011-06-25 16:04:18 <upb> haha kiba
1431 2011-06-25 16:04:48 jav__ has joined
1432 2011-06-25 16:04:55 <Happy0> kiba: link? :P
1433 2011-06-25 16:05:02 <jgarzik> sipa: I just came up with an algorithm that Hal and other people on the thread thought was OK
1434 2011-06-25 16:05:03 <Happy0> oh wait
1435 2011-06-25 16:05:06 <Happy0> just saw it, sorry
1436 2011-06-25 16:05:13 <Happy0> the link that is
1437 2011-06-25 16:05:26 <Happy0> hahaha
1438 2011-06-25 16:05:26 <luke-jr> so is there actually code for deterministic wallets? or just a theory?
1439 2011-06-25 16:05:27 <jgarzik> sipa: the goal was something computationally expensive to brute force
1440 2011-06-25 16:05:29 <Happy0> very nice
1441 2011-06-25 16:05:34 <kiba> Happy0: http://bitcoinweekly.com/comics/bitsquirrel
1442 2011-06-25 16:05:45 <Happy0> yeah kiba, like i said, i scrolled up and saw it... good comic =p
1443 2011-06-25 16:05:54 <sipa> jgarzik: and why not just iterated sha512 ?
1444 2011-06-25 16:06:06 <kiba> and don't forget to donate a few bitcents if you like it: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22023.0
1445 2011-06-25 16:06:46 <Happy0> kiba: haha, i wish i had any to donate =p
1446 2011-06-25 16:07:05 Maged has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1447 2011-06-25 16:07:08 <jgarzik> sipa: it's nice to use multiple algorithms, in case one has problems
1448 2011-06-25 16:07:08 <Happy0> alas i have nothing
1449 2011-06-25 16:08:50 <jgarzik> sipa: remember that scratch card may have as little as 64 bits of password.  with that few bits, I wanted something difficult to brute force
1450 2011-06-25 16:09:38 <sipa> sure, but that's a useful thing to have in any case
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1457 2011-06-25 16:19:11 <ericmock> jgarzik: what's your take on the db5.x vs. db4.x issue.  I can't seem to get anything to work using 4.x
1458 2011-06-25 16:19:57 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
1459 2011-06-25 16:20:22 <ericmock> whenever I link to 4.8 and have bitcoin generate new databases, it generates them but then quits complaining Bitcoin: Error loading addr.dat, etc.
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1464 2011-06-25 16:21:48 <ericmock> seems like it can't load the database it just generated.  Is there something else that needs swapped besides libdb_cxx-5.1.dylib with libdb_cxx-4.8.dylib?
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1471 2011-06-25 16:27:04 <BTCOE__> Does anyone know anything about KYC requirements for Bitcoin related projects that also handles USD?
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1494 2011-06-25 16:54:34 <Incitatus> http://www.gcnlive.com/mediaPlayers/livePlayer.php
1495 2011-06-25 16:54:36 <Incitatus> channel 2
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1510 2011-06-25 17:04:45 <TheAncientGoat> Gah, $17, here we go again :|
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1539 2011-06-25 17:21:09 <egecko> http://techland.time.com/2011/06/24/will-protect-ip-act-stop-piracy-or-doom-online-innovation/
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1543 2011-06-25 17:24:44 <kiba> egecko: meh. What's it going to do? Stop bitcoinweekly from publishing public domain contents?
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1553 2011-06-25 17:33:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you know if there's a way to use a OTP mechanism with LUKS?
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1559 2011-06-25 17:36:15 <sipa> otp?
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1561 2011-06-25 17:36:36 <sipa> one time pad?
1562 2011-06-25 17:36:56 <gmaxwell> One time password.
1563 2011-06-25 17:37:00 <sipa> you can use /dev/random as a keyfile
1564 2011-06-25 17:37:08 <gmaxwell> And no, I don't see how.
1565 2011-06-25 17:37:24 <sipa> that's what's commonly used for encrypted swap
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1568 2011-06-25 17:38:21 <hipeople> k
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1570 2011-06-25 17:39:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was responding to the use of one time passwords. (otp != /dev/urandom ; think RSA tokens)
1571 2011-06-25 17:39:34 <gmaxwell> (or s/key)
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1573 2011-06-25 17:40:48 <upb> who was looking for js address verifier yesterday? i wonder if they found one
1574 2011-06-25 17:41:55 <upb> trying to figure out why the one i made yesterday doesnt work (tm), got very angry :)
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1583 2011-06-25 17:47:48 <lianj> hm, getdata (tx) really doesnt work on older txs that are already in a valid block :/
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1585 2011-06-25 17:48:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: thoughts on yubico only using 2 bytes for the iterator?
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1588 2011-06-25 17:50:23 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: doesn't that mean it stops functioning after 65535 uses?
1589 2011-06-25 17:51:11 <gmaxwell> yup, I think so, in OTP mode.
1590 2011-06-25 17:51:13 <jrmithdobbs> without a new HMAC
1591 2011-06-25 17:52:01 koleg has joined
1592 2011-06-25 17:53:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: wait, we're misunderstanding how it works
1593 2011-06-25 17:53:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it *is* time based
1594 2011-06-25 17:53:54 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.yubico.com/technical-description
1595 2011-06-25 17:54:15 <jrmithdobbs> wait nm
1596 2011-06-25 17:54:31 <jrmithdobbs> where's the full spec sheet for this thing, reading marketing-tech-descriptions is not helpful
1597 2011-06-25 17:54:34 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1598 2011-06-25 17:55:00 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, go look at the manual... it's just a counter.
1599 2011-06-25 17:55:03 <jrmithdobbs> A non-predictable counter value is fed by a time-base that is highly device and session dependent. Together with a server-based authentication module, this counter can provide a strong protection against "Phishing" attempts.
1600 2011-06-25 17:55:23 <jrmithdobbs> where do they get that time-base with no clock?
1601 2011-06-25 17:55:32 <gmaxwell> a counter + a hash.
1602 2011-06-25 17:55:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i can't find the manual, where is it? haha
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1604 2011-06-25 17:56:02 <gmaxwell> http://static.yubico.com/var/uploads/YubiKey_manual-2.0.pdf
1605 2011-06-25 17:56:26 <jrmithdobbs> oh it was at the very bottom of th epage i was reading, lol
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1610 2011-06-25 17:58:32 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh wow
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1614 2011-06-25 17:58:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i just found a gaping hole in this implementation
1615 2011-06-25 17:58:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: yubikey 100% garuanteed not to work for me.
1616 2011-06-25 17:59:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: since i type dvorak.
1617 2011-06-25 17:59:23 <jrmithdobbs> serious.
1618 2011-06-25 17:59:23 <ericmock> you /are/ a rebel
1619 2011-06-25 17:59:28 <gmaxwell> hm. A second hid device would keep the same mapping?
1620 2011-06-25 17:59:34 <jrmithdobbs> it does on os x
1621 2011-06-25 17:59:52 <gmaxwell> It would be pretty trivial to just try N keyboard mappings
1622 2011-06-25 18:00:02 <gmaxwell> dvorak/azerty/etc.
1623 2011-06-25 18:00:09 <jrmithdobbs> i'd have to manually swap input every time i used it
1624 2011-06-25 18:00:20 <jrmithdobbs> ya it could be fixed, just saying, current implementation wouldn't work for me
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1626 2011-06-25 18:00:36 <gmaxwell> http://forum.yubico.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=317
1627 2011-06-25 18:00:37 <jrmithdobbs> (esp since my personal machines don't even have us/us extended keymaps *installed* let alone enabled)
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1629 2011-06-25 18:01:58 <jrmithdobbs> i'd be down for paying a small ($1/key) premium for the dvorak version ;p
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1632 2011-06-25 18:04:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: their solution to that is NASTY as fuck
1633 2011-06-25 18:05:18 <jrmithdobbs> bruteforce it serverside? ugh
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1635 2011-06-25 18:06:45 <gmaxwell> Why is that nasty?
1636 2011-06-25 18:07:08 <gmaxwell> For one, because of the limited charset you can probably just limit to one or two possible ones, then just try both.
1637 2011-06-25 18:07:19 <gmaxwell> Even if it had to try a dozen that would be a non-issue
1638 2011-06-25 18:07:30 <jrmithdobbs> because there's cases, as they point out, where you can't tell for certain whether it's dvorak or qwerty
1639 2011-06-25 18:07:48 <gmaxwell> So? try both, only one will work.
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1641 2011-06-25 18:08:11 <gmaxwell> It's not like you're that tight on bits of security there.
1642 2011-06-25 18:08:21 <jrmithdobbs> right but isn't it feasible (not likely or predictably) for another key to generate the same otp that will look like qwerty?
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1645 2011-06-25 18:08:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: good point
1646 2011-06-25 18:09:15 <gmaxwell> If the hashfunction works, no. I mean, it's exactly the same case as "might I get a bitcoin address the same as another user?"
1647 2011-06-25 18:09:18 <jrmithdobbs> eg, key1 set to qwerty map, key2 set to dvorak map, with different hmacs, isn't there some overlap there where they will generate the same hash?
1648 2011-06-25 18:09:29 <jrmithdobbs> i have a sinus headache and don't want to do the math
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1651 2011-06-25 18:09:37 <wumpus> I was just about to raise the issue that it would decrease the entropy of the key, but as the keys are long enough it's not really much of an issue
1652 2011-06-25 18:09:41 <jrmithdobbs> but it's got to be a non-zero probability
1653 2011-06-25 18:09:48 <gmaxwell> Yes, but you also know that user 1 is key 1 and user 2 is key 2.
1654 2011-06-25 18:10:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: IIRC it's 160 bits
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1656 2011-06-25 18:10:15 <jrmithdobbs> 128bit
1657 2011-06-25 18:10:17 <gmaxwell> And this can happen even without the keyboard remapping.
1658 2011-06-25 18:10:34 <jrmithdobbs> true but remapping makes it slightly more likely, no?
1659 2011-06-25 18:10:54 <gmaxwell> Sure, it's cut log2(number of mappings) bits off the keyspace.
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1661 2011-06-25 18:11:22 <gmaxwell> s/it\'s cut/it cuts/
1662 2011-06-25 18:12:25 <jrmithdobbs> oh there's a crc16 as part of the hash
1663 2011-06-25 18:12:41 <jrmithdobbs> makes that less likely
1664 2011-06-25 18:13:26 <jrmithdobbs> i'll finish reading before i comment further, ha ;p
1665 2011-06-25 18:14:31 <jrmithdobbs> also, they use a session counter to deal with the iterator being only 65535 so it's 65535 * 512 uses per hmac+userid combo
1666 2011-06-25 18:14:31 <gmaxwell> It's really not a big deal. Keep in mind that the user should also be providing a regular password. ... and if the users system is all trojaned up the trojan can just steal the user's session, so you don't have to have much yubikey security before its not the limiting factor anymore.
1667 2011-06-25 18:14:48 <gmaxwell> oh I didn't realize that.
1668 2011-06-25 18:15:05 <jrmithdobbs> actually not quite
1669 2011-06-25 18:15:19 <jrmithdobbs> actually wow
1670 2011-06-25 18:15:24 <jrmithdobbs> this is a lot better than we thought
1671 2011-06-25 18:15:32 <jrmithdobbs> the iterator gets reset every power up
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1673 2011-06-25 18:16:07 <gmaxwell> er? that doesn't sound very one-time.
1674 2011-06-25 18:16:21 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: looking for their definition of powerup
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1679 2011-06-25 18:16:42 <gmaxwell> in any case 65536 uses isn't a big deal— if you use it 10 times per day every day, thats almost 18 years.
1680 2011-06-25 18:16:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but it seems to increment session count
1681 2011-06-25 18:17:02 T_X has joined
1682 2011-06-25 18:17:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: well ya, i was more worried about asshole-attacks of someone plugging it in and setting your desk toy to flap back and forth to hit the button over and over all day long or something stupid
1683 2011-06-25 18:17:37 <jrmithdobbs> eg, dos not lifetime worries
1684 2011-06-25 18:18:04 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1685 2011-06-25 18:18:38 <jrmithdobbs> looks like powerup refers to reseting
1686 2011-06-25 18:18:52 Pathin_ has joined
1687 2011-06-25 18:19:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ok here's how the counter works. the *session* counter (1 byte) is what is incremented on each keypress
1688 2011-06-25 18:19:32 <gmaxwell> yea, and the usage counter at each powerup
1689 2011-06-25 18:19:38 <gmaxwell> so asshole attack is diminished
1690 2011-06-25 18:20:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: when session hits 0xff on next iteration it will increment usage counter and usage counter increments on every powerup (which zeros out session counter)
1691 2011-06-25 18:20:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: this actually makes this perfect for kerberos token aquisition
1692 2011-06-25 18:21:15 <jrmithdobbs> because you can detect if someone tries to use an older counter
1693 2011-06-25 18:21:20 <jrmithdobbs> having the two iterators is p smart
1694 2011-06-25 18:21:56 <jrmithdobbs> eg, plugging in and hitting a bunch of times to pre-gen a bunch of otps is almost worthless if you can't garauntee you can make use of them before the real user
1695 2011-06-25 18:22:23 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1696 2011-06-25 18:22:34 <jrmithdobbs> because they'll all be the same usage counter and immediately all get invalidated on next use
1697 2011-06-25 18:22:43 <jrmithdobbs> (on next legit use)
1698 2011-06-25 18:22:49 ewal has quit ()
1699 2011-06-25 18:24:12 <jrmithdobbs> also makes it real easy to detect compromises like that
1700 2011-06-25 18:25:18 Ken` has left ()
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1707 2011-06-25 18:31:08 <ericmock> so this YubiKey just shits out OTPs?
1708 2011-06-25 18:31:57 B0g4r7 has joined
1709 2011-06-25 18:33:09 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: it also has a challenge/response mode if you buy their ~$500 hardware for server side
1710 2011-06-25 18:33:16 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1711 2011-06-25 18:33:28 <jrmithdobbs> but without any other special hardware or software on either side it does OTPs in a pretty portable fashion
1712 2011-06-25 18:33:47 <ericmock> ah...  so in the basic config it just issues the same password until you ask for a new one?
1713 2011-06-25 18:33:55 <jrmithdobbs> no
1714 2011-06-25 18:34:07 <jrmithdobbs> it has the ability to be used that way as well though
1715 2011-06-25 18:34:16 <jrmithdobbs> it's realy OTPs like s/key
1716 2011-06-25 18:34:24 <ericmock> so you rely on the OS to store the password in a keychain?
1717 2011-06-25 18:34:52 <upb> heh so whats so special in the hardware, the secret key in HSM ?:P
1718 2011-06-25 18:35:05 <ericmock> i.e. it issues a new pw for each button press?
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1720 2011-06-25 18:38:08 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: no
1721 2011-06-25 18:38:22 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: no to the first, yes to the second
1722 2011-06-25 18:38:37 <ericmock> gotcha...
1723 2011-06-25 18:38:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: actually, I think luks could be pretty easily extended to work with these otps
1724 2011-06-25 18:39:22 <ericmock> but how is that really much better than a software OTP generator?
1725 2011-06-25 18:39:45 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: encrypt the key with the passphrase on the key using the userid as a "salt" so to speak
1726 2011-06-25 18:39:59 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1727 2011-06-25 18:40:16 <jrmithdobbs> thought 6 bytes isn't a very good "salt"
1728 2011-06-25 18:40:25 ewal has joined
1729 2011-06-25 18:40:33 <jrmithdobbs> s/thought/though/
1730 2011-06-25 18:40:35 Pathin_ has joined
1731 2011-06-25 18:40:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: wouldn't need kernel changes, just userspace
1732 2011-06-25 18:42:39 K_F has joined
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1734 2011-06-25 18:43:09 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well thats not very one time. Also, you can put the yubikey in a mode where you load it with a static password
1735 2011-06-25 18:43:19 <gmaxwell> so you hit the button and it blarts out 40 characters or whatever.
1736 2011-06-25 18:43:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's still one time in that the passphrase logic would have to understand how to decrypt the OTP
1737 2011-06-25 18:44:00 <jrmithdobbs> it still adds a semi-useful 2nd factor
1738 2011-06-25 18:44:07 <gmaxwell> ericmock: vs software otp— you don't have to carry around paper, or data that could be stolen from your machine.
1739 2011-06-25 18:44:25 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: hm. security against keyboard sniffing dongle.
1740 2011-06-25 18:44:31 <ericmock> ah, yea, I see the benefit.
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1743 2011-06-25 18:45:24 <ericmock> so dvorak problem is just with the server-side hardware?
1744 2011-06-25 18:45:45 koleg has quit (3!kvirc@79.133.143.185|Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1745 2011-06-25 18:45:55 <gmaxwell> It's not much of a problem. if it fails, munge the mapping and try again.
1746 2011-06-25 18:45:59 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the second factor, alone, would be pretty easy to bruteforce since there's only 196605 possibilities, but so long as combined with a passphrase
1747 2011-06-25 18:46:26 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: not hardware, the verification software
1748 2011-06-25 18:46:51 <ericmock> oh, it verifies what the dongle spits out?
1749 2011-06-25 18:47:22 <gmaxwell> the dongle contains a secret key (that you can't get out, write only) that is known to the server.
1750 2011-06-25 18:47:29 <jrmithdobbs> ericmock: the basic idea works just like a btc address (with entropy added to make them one time)
1751 2011-06-25 18:47:33 <gmaxwell> Knowing the key allows it to validate the output.
1752 2011-06-25 18:47:41 <ericmock> gotcha
1753 2011-06-25 18:47:42 <ericmock> thx
1754 2011-06-25 18:48:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: did you see the modhex stuff?
1755 2011-06-25 18:48:30 dvide has quit ()
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1759 2011-06-25 18:53:06 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya
1760 2011-06-25 18:53:16 Teslah has joined
1761 2011-06-25 18:53:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: btw, my luks suggestion actually makes it 3 factor auth
1762 2011-06-25 18:53:31 <gmaxwell> disk, password, dongle.. sure
1763 2011-06-25 18:53:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: factor 1: key passphrase. factor 2: yubikey userid. factor 3: the key itself
1764 2011-06-25 18:54:15 <jrmithdobbs> i think i'm going to order a handful of these to play with
1765 2011-06-25 18:55:00 <jrmithdobbs> also, it doesn't actually require any modification of the luks stuff itself
1766 2011-06-25 18:55:07 <jrmithdobbs> just adds a decrypt step before using the key
1767 2011-06-25 18:55:40 <gmaxwell> I was thinking about password security a bit and I realized another reason why yubikeys are good— if you require strong passwords many people will just write them down completely (often in pretty insecure ways). Crappy password + yubikey  > stronger passwod written down
1768 2011-06-25 18:56:02 <jrmithdobbs> true
1769 2011-06-25 18:56:45 <jrmithdobbs> oh hey
1770 2011-06-25 18:56:50 <jrmithdobbs> you could turn that into 4 factor
1771 2011-06-25 18:56:56 <jrmithdobbs> (re: luks stuff)
1772 2011-06-25 18:56:58 <jrmithdobbs> trivially
1773 2011-06-25 18:57:09 <jrmithdobbs> so long as having the key tied to a specific system is ok
1774 2011-06-25 18:57:27 <gmaxwell> Dataloss becoming more likely than theft…
1775 2011-06-25 18:57:29 <jrmithdobbs> luks encrypt the storage for key dongle with a key that's stored passphrase-less on the device itself
1776 2011-06-25 18:57:34 <diki> was wondering...will bitcoin reject hashes that may have been generated by a difficulty lower than 0.99?
1777 2011-06-25 18:57:44 <gmaxwell> better to just increase the password strengthening...
1778 2011-06-25 18:57:50 <diki> well...using a pool that is
1779 2011-06-25 18:58:03 <jrmithdobbs> ya true
1780 2011-06-25 18:58:16 <gmaxwell> diki: thats up to the pool, of course. but the pool should be rejecting anything lower than its target difficulty.
1781 2011-06-25 18:58:27 <diki> and if it doesnt?
1782 2011-06-25 18:58:32 <diki> will bitcoin do that?
1783 2011-06-25 18:59:01 Pinion has joined
1784 2011-06-25 18:59:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what's a better place to be talking about this for useful feedback? heh
1785 2011-06-25 18:59:05 <gmaxwell> bitcoin enforces the block difficulty...
1786 2011-06-25 18:59:16 <diki> gmax:most pools send diff 1 shares
1787 2011-06-25 18:59:28 <diki> what if i were to send <diff1 work
1788 2011-06-25 18:59:36 <gmaxwell> The pool would just reject it.
1789 2011-06-25 18:59:46 <diki> not if i modify it
1790 2011-06-25 18:59:47 Rictoo_ has joined
1791 2011-06-25 18:59:56 <jrmithdobbs> why would you
1792 2011-06-25 18:59:59 djoot has joined
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1795 2011-06-25 19:00:07 <gmaxwell> great, then tell me the address of your pool so I can get rich by exploiting you.
1796 2011-06-25 19:00:11 <jrmithdobbs> if you anything you want to incrcease the diff requirement
1797 2011-06-25 19:00:17 <diki> it's private
1798 2011-06-25 19:00:19 <diki> so i can solo
1799 2011-06-25 19:00:30 <diki> i just want the h not zero hashes to come faster
1800 2011-06-25 19:00:32 <jrmithdobbs> to reduce worthless network traffir
1801 2011-06-25 19:00:36 <diki> erm...h IS zero
1802 2011-06-25 19:00:41 <jrmithdobbs> traffic
1803 2011-06-25 19:00:44 <gmaxwell> ...why?
1804 2011-06-25 19:00:44 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1805 2011-06-25 19:01:02 <gmaxwell> When I mine solo I mine at full difficulty to avoid worthless jabber and log activity.
1806 2011-06-25 19:01:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i guess you could calculate better hash/s estimates
1807 2011-06-25 19:01:14 <jrmithdobbs> but that's pretty worthless
1808 2011-06-25 19:01:27 * diki is not planning to run a public pool anymore
1809 2011-06-25 19:01:33 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the clients do anyways and will even report it.
1810 2011-06-25 19:01:34 <diki> i just thought it's too much of a hassle
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1813 2011-06-25 19:02:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i said it was worthless ;p
1814 2011-06-25 19:02:21 <jrmithdobbs> just the only reason i could think for it
1815 2011-06-25 19:02:23 <jrmithdobbs> diki: good.
1816 2011-06-25 19:02:32 <dinox> ;;bc,diff
1817 2011-06-25 19:02:33 <gribble> 1379223.4296725
1818 2011-06-25 19:02:40 Rictoo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1819 2011-06-25 19:02:40 * diki became greedy tho
1820 2011-06-25 19:02:47 <diki> i found two blocks...and honestly i need more
1821 2011-06-25 19:03:33 <diki> so...let's say the miner receives work that has difficulty <0.999whatever
1822 2011-06-25 19:03:52 <diki> and it sends it to the pool which will NOT reject it, and it meets the requirements to be sent to bitcoin
1823 2011-06-25 19:04:03 <dinox> If blockchain is n blocks long and I mine a block with diff 1380000, that would be the longest chain then, right?
1824 2011-06-25 19:04:04 <diki> will bitcoin reject it?
1825 2011-06-25 19:04:18 <dinox> where my block has n-1 as parent
1826 2011-06-25 19:04:36 <gmaxwell> diki: yep, of course, what would you expect?
1827 2011-06-25 19:04:40 <gmaxwell> diki: yep.
1828 2011-06-25 19:04:55 <gmaxwell> dinox: no.
1829 2011-06-25 19:04:58 <diki> hmm..well why does it not reject diff 0.999whatever hashes?
1830 2011-06-25 19:05:06 <dinox> gmaxwell: why not?
1831 2011-06-25 19:05:08 <diki> which is what most pools are set to
1832 2011-06-25 19:05:09 <gmaxwell> dinox: the calculation uses the target.
1833 2011-06-25 19:05:33 DaQatz has joined
1834 2011-06-25 19:05:44 <gmaxwell> diki: bitcoin itself doesn't accept them, the pool does. they are useless to bitcoin.
1835 2011-06-25 19:05:45 <dinox> aha, so there are no meaning in mining blocks with diff > target?
1836 2011-06-25 19:05:53 <gmaxwell> dinox: right.
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1838 2011-06-25 19:06:32 <diki> gmax:i just want to send hashes faster...waiting 5-10 seconds for a diff whatever share is...if you add it up in a week-a long time
1839 2011-06-25 19:06:38 <dinox> and blocks with diff < target are just considered non-valid then?
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1841 2011-06-25 19:06:56 <gmaxwell> diki: why do you want to send hashes faster?
1842 2011-06-25 19:07:13 <gmaxwell> dinox: correct.
1843 2011-06-25 19:07:19 <denisx> how can I connect to my bitcoind with with bitcoind when it does NOT run on 127.0.0.1?
1844 2011-06-25 19:08:11 <diki> gmax:why else :P, decrease block generation time. Which i know it's random, but instead of doing two shares per 10 seconds, i want to do 10 sharares per 10 seconds
1845 2011-06-25 19:08:21 Bagger-288 has left ("No matter how dark the night, somehow the Sun rises once again")
1846 2011-06-25 19:08:26 <gmaxwell> diki: that won't decrease block generation time at all.
1847 2011-06-25 19:08:30 <diki> s/sharares/shares
1848 2011-06-25 19:08:49 <diki> i need to decrease the time, that is all
1849 2011-06-25 19:08:50 <gmaxwell> diki: You've completely misunderstood the process. The shares don't contribute _anything_ towards generating a block.
1850 2011-06-25 19:09:00 <diki> gmax:no need to tell me that
1851 2011-06-25 19:09:04 <diki> i am perfectly aware
1852 2011-06-25 19:09:17 <gmaxwell> The shares prove the miner is working, but unless you reach the full difficulty they are just discarded.
1853 2011-06-25 19:09:40 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1855 2011-06-25 19:09:51 <diki> A miner at 390 mhash/s produces ONE share per say 7 seconds
1856 2011-06-25 19:10:01 <diki> at diff 1
1857 2011-06-25 19:10:12 <mtrlt_> using easier shares just means more resources needed from the pool
1858 2011-06-25 19:10:23 <mtrlt_> plus you cant use easier diff than H==0
1859 2011-06-25 19:10:38 <gmaxwell> diki: sure, and if you switched to diff2 it would take 14 seconds on average, and you'd solve blocks no slower.
1860 2011-06-25 19:10:40 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1861 2011-06-25 19:11:00 <gmaxwell> mtrlt_: well you can, you could slow yourself down a couple percent and do the whole sha256. :)
1862 2011-06-25 19:11:10 <gmaxwell> (too)
1863 2011-06-25 19:11:12 <denisx> diki: more like 12,632256752941176 seconds
1864 2011-06-25 19:11:27 <mtrlt_> gmaxwell: no, it would force the pool users to use special software
1865 2011-06-25 19:11:34 <diki> mtrl:damn
1866 2011-06-25 19:11:34 <denisx> ehm 11,012736656410256 seconds
1867 2011-06-25 19:11:49 <gmaxwell> mtrlt_: diki is talking about their private stuff regardless.
1868 2011-06-25 19:11:54 <mtrlt_> gmaxwell: you can still just calculate H. but not without modifying existing miners
1869 2011-06-25 19:12:06 Pathin_ has joined
1870 2011-06-25 19:12:09 <gmaxwell> mtrlt_: dur, yea. Still, moronic.
1871 2011-06-25 19:12:23 <diki> if i remember correctly, miners do have some protection against lower than 0.99 difficulty
1872 2011-06-25 19:12:27 aristidesfl has joined
1873 2011-06-25 19:12:28 <denisx> I could change my pool software to accept diff-0,5 ;)
1874 2011-06-25 19:12:34 <diki> but then absolutely NO hash will be H==0?
1875 2011-06-25 19:12:36 <mtrlt_> diki: it is not protection
1876 2011-06-25 19:12:37 <denisx> but then you only get 0,5 shares credit
1877 2011-06-25 19:12:46 <mtrlt_> diki: just optimization
1878 2011-06-25 19:13:08 <diki> if the diff is say 0.01 would the miner at some point still produce H==0 hashes?
1879 2011-06-25 19:13:12 <gmaxwell> diki: you really need to get this idea out of your head that more easier shares would result in faster solutions.
1880 2011-06-25 19:13:13 <mtrlt_> because nobody in their right mind would use easier diff than H==0
1881 2011-06-25 19:13:48 <mtrlt_> yea
1882 2011-06-25 19:13:52 <mtrlt_> do what gmaxwell says
1883 2011-06-25 19:13:55 <mtrlt_> :P
1884 2011-06-25 19:14:12 <diki> of course it would produce faster solutions...although not much faster
1885 2011-06-25 19:14:17 <mtrlt_> no
1886 2011-06-25 19:14:18 <gmaxwell> No it wouldn't.
1887 2011-06-25 19:14:19 <mtrlt_> it would not
1888 2011-06-25 19:14:20 <diki> i've seen the difference between diff 1 and diff 2
1889 2011-06-25 19:14:22 <denisx> no
1890 2011-06-25 19:14:24 <diki> not big at all
1891 2011-06-25 19:14:24 <mtrlt_> why would it?
1892 2011-06-25 19:14:34 <mtrlt_> explain
1893 2011-06-25 19:14:41 <dinox> any dev going on a send-function where you may specify which address the change should go to?
1894 2011-06-25 19:14:43 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1896 2011-06-25 19:15:04 <diki> mtrlt:well...lower diff = faster hash generation
1897 2011-06-25 19:15:12 <mtrlt_> diki: because the shares below the actual network diff are worthless
1898 2011-06-25 19:15:18 <denisx> diki: no
1899 2011-06-25 19:15:23 <mtrlt_> diki: no
1900 2011-06-25 19:15:30 <gmaxwell> diki: no, it means more frequent proof of work generation.
1901 2011-06-25 19:15:39 <diki> that is what i need lol
1902 2011-06-25 19:15:40 <mtrlt_> yes
1903 2011-06-25 19:15:48 <mtrlt_> why do you need that
1904 2011-06-25 19:15:50 <diki> if it works...cool for me
1905 2011-06-25 19:15:59 <gmaxwell> It does not work.
1906 2011-06-25 19:16:04 <mtrlt_> it does not
1907 2011-06-25 19:16:09 <diki> it might not work the way you think of it
1908 2011-06-25 19:16:15 <diki> but diki thinks it will :)
1909 2011-06-25 19:16:17 <gmaxwell> It will not make you any more bitcoin.
1910 2011-06-25 19:16:21 <mtrlt_> argh why am i even wasting time with this guy
1911 2011-06-25 19:16:26 <gmaxwell> Diki has been educated stupid.
1912 2011-06-25 19:16:58 <diki> the fact you guys dont want to accept that faster generation of a block exists...poor you
1913 2011-06-25 19:17:13 <diki> when cpu miners were still used
1914 2011-06-25 19:17:21 T_X has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1915 2011-06-25 19:17:21 <diki> you generated a block every hour and a hal
1916 2011-06-25 19:17:23 <diki> *half
1917 2011-06-25 19:17:24 <mtrlt_> no
1918 2011-06-25 19:17:28 <diki> on avg
1919 2011-06-25 19:17:29 <mtrlt_> fuck
1920 2011-06-25 19:17:32 <mtrlt_> fuck you
1921 2011-06-25 19:17:34 mtrlt_ has left ()
1922 2011-06-25 19:17:36 <diki> gtfo then
1923 2011-06-25 19:17:44 <diki> i hate guys like yo
1924 2011-06-25 19:17:46 <diki> *you
1925 2011-06-25 19:18:33 <diki> i've seen a pattern in the H==0 hashes
1926 2011-06-25 19:18:38 <diki> they occur 1 hour each
1927 2011-06-25 19:18:39 <gmaxwell> We lack the brains to know that 4 simultaneous days otate in an imaginary cubed earth?
1928 2011-06-25 19:18:48 <denisx> diki: are you drunk?
1929 2011-06-25 19:18:58 * diki is high
1930 2011-06-25 19:19:17 <diki> point is...i was amazed how these hashes are generated on avg, one hour each
1931 2011-06-25 19:19:24 T_X has joined
1932 2011-06-25 19:19:44 <diki> there was one that was generated 59 minutes and 58 seconds after the previous one
1933 2011-06-25 19:19:48 <gmaxwell> If you're only generating H==0 solutions once an hour your not using much computing power…
1934 2011-06-25 19:20:02 <diki> i am doing 660 mhash/s
1935 2011-06-25 19:20:17 <gmaxwell> Not if you're only getting H==0 solutions once an hour you're not.
1936 2011-06-25 19:20:35 <denisx> ca. 1.2MH7s
1937 2011-06-25 19:20:44 <diki> sometimes, on luck i get like 5
1938 2011-06-25 19:20:54 <diki> but usually it's 1 per hour
1939 2011-06-25 19:21:20 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1940 2011-06-25 19:21:26 <denisx> diki: what client are you using?
1941 2011-06-25 19:21:31 <diki> phoenix ofc
1942 2011-06-25 19:21:37 <diki> with the phatk kernel
1943 2011-06-25 19:21:40 <denisx> paste the line!
1944 2011-06-25 19:21:44 <gmaxwell> well, whatever copy of phoenix you're using is busted.
1945 2011-06-25 19:22:04 <diki> gmax:unless we and i mean I am misunderstanding the H==0 thing
1946 2011-06-25 19:22:15 <gmaxwell> Sounds like it.
1947 2011-06-25 19:22:29 Pathin_ has joined
1948 2011-06-25 19:23:03 <gmaxwell> You should be getting ~553 per hour.
1949 2011-06-25 19:23:14 <denisx> H==0 means the first 32 bits of your hash are 0
1950 2011-06-25 19:23:32 <diki> right, seems i was indeed wrong a bit
1951 2011-06-25 19:23:46 <upb> haha :D
1952 2011-06-25 19:23:50 <diki> this is the line in pushpool that determines whether a hash is to be passed to bitcoin for judgement
1953 2011-06-25 19:23:51 <diki> 	if (hash[27] == 0)
1954 2011-06-25 19:23:51 <diki> 		better_hash = true;
1955 2011-06-25 19:24:03 <denisx> no
1956 2011-06-25 19:24:11 <diki> yes it is
1957 2011-06-25 19:24:12 <denisx> aehm, yes ,)
1958 2011-06-25 19:24:12 <denisx> ;)
1959 2011-06-25 19:24:30 Tim-7967 has joined
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1962 2011-06-25 19:24:40 <denisx> this could be switched to h[27] and h[26] also
1963 2011-06-25 19:24:55 <diki> the difference being?
1964 2011-06-25 19:25:12 <gmaxwell> Nothing.
1965 2011-06-25 19:25:26 <gmaxwell> Which random set of useless hashes it sends up to bitcoin.
1966 2011-06-25 19:25:29 <denisx> the difficulty is so high that h[26] is also zero now
1967 2011-06-25 19:25:36 <gmaxwell> I don't know why pushpool doesn't just do the target check itself.
1968 2011-06-25 19:25:45 <diki> ask jgarzik
1969 2011-06-25 19:25:57 <erus`> is sizeof() evaluated at compile time?
1970 2011-06-25 19:26:05 <gmaxwell> erus`: yes.
1971 2011-06-25 19:26:39 <diki> anyway...i want faster hashes than diff 1
1972 2011-06-25 19:26:44 <gmaxwell> erus`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sizeof#sizeof_and_incomplete_types
1973 2011-06-25 19:27:09 <gmaxwell> diki: I want a pony. A pony with a skateboard.
1974 2011-06-25 19:27:23 <diki> gmax:seems you've never seen a horse
1975 2011-06-25 19:27:25 <diki> they're big
1976 2011-06-25 19:27:43 <diki> but we have a donkey LOL
1977 2011-06-25 19:27:45 <gmaxwell> diki: yes, a skateboard would be useless. Much like additional lower difficulty shares.
1978 2011-06-25 19:27:57 <diki> gmax:pool is for me btw
1979 2011-06-25 19:28:01 <diki> solo, just me
1980 2011-06-25 19:28:04 <diki> aka private
1981 2011-06-25 19:28:07 <gmaxwell> diki: just submit all sha256 results. Remove the H==0 check.
1982 2011-06-25 19:28:07 <diki> i just want to cheat
1983 2011-06-25 19:28:20 <gmaxwell> diki: what will you be cheating?
1984 2011-06-25 19:28:22 <diki> gmax:did that, bitcoin said No to almost all of them
1985 2011-06-25 19:28:34 <gmaxwell> diki: of course it did.
1986 2011-06-25 19:29:16 <diki> but, instead of OCing my card to get faster hashes done that meet the pools'diff
1987 2011-06-25 19:29:27 <diki> just decrease pool's diff
1988 2011-06-25 19:29:40 <upb> makes perfect sense
1989 2011-06-25 19:29:40 <gmaxwell> remove the code that enforces the difficulty entirely then.
1990 2011-06-25 19:30:04 <gmaxwell> For 1BTC I'll write you a patch to totally remove the difficulty checking from bitcoind.
1991 2011-06-25 19:30:29 <diki> well, i dont want to generate diff < 1 blocks which will be invalid
1992 2011-06-25 19:30:38 <diki> i still need 50 bitcoins that ARE valid
1993 2011-06-25 19:31:11 <gmaxwell> Blocks with difficulty less than 1379192.28822808 are invalid.
1994 2011-06-25 19:31:22 <diki> yet most pools still generate them :)
1995 2011-06-25 19:31:30 <gmaxwell> No they don't.
1996 2011-06-25 19:31:38 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1997 2011-06-25 19:31:39 <denisx> show us one
1998 2011-06-25 19:31:53 <ersi> don't feed him
1999 2011-06-25 19:32:06 <diki> by pool i dont mean the pool software
2000 2011-06-25 19:32:16 <ersi> Pool's closed
2001 2011-06-25 19:32:29 <gmaxwell> ersi: thanks, I needed that.
2002 2011-06-25 19:32:57 <diki> point is, i need about 30-40 blocks generated
2003 2011-06-25 19:33:01 Pathin_ has joined
2004 2011-06-25 19:33:13 <diki> and life=fixed
2005 2011-06-25 19:33:15 <gmaxwell> diki: *plonk*
2006 2011-06-25 19:34:16 <denisx> diki: you're 12, right?
2007 2011-06-25 19:34:20 <jrmithdobbs> oh wow, how have i never noticed the cocoa version of vim
2008 2011-06-25 19:34:23 <jrmithdobbs> that's pretty
2009 2011-06-25 19:34:38 <jrmithdobbs> that'll teach me to build the mac gui from upstream sources ;p
2010 2011-06-25 19:34:43 <diki> If i can just make everything faster...and they pass 	if (hash[27] == 0)
2011 2011-06-25 19:34:43 <diki> 		better_hash = true; faster
2012 2011-06-25 19:34:53 <diki> all is well for me
2013 2011-06-25 19:35:27 <ersi> denisx: Nah, he's just a monologoue MegaHAL
2014 2011-06-25 19:36:01 <jrmithdobbs> seriously, he just doesn't get it no matter how many times he's helped
2015 2011-06-25 19:36:05 <jrmithdobbs> don't waste your breath
2016 2011-06-25 19:36:16 <jrmithdobbs> or finger movements
2017 2011-06-25 19:36:22 <diki> i am greedy, i need money, i will do whatever it takes to get those bitcoins
2018 2011-06-25 19:36:35 <ersi> like fingering yourself in your dark spot.
2019 2011-06-25 19:36:44 <erus`> trolol
2020 2011-06-25 19:37:13 <diki> ersi:i get that you might want to jump on junior, but hold your horses damnit
2021 2011-06-25 19:37:23 <diki> wait in line
2022 2011-06-25 19:37:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|...
2023 2011-06-25 19:37:50 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I walk away for a day or two and this is what happens?
2024 2011-06-25 19:37:52 sacredchao has joined
2025 2011-06-25 19:38:05 <diki> Nothing has happened...yet
2026 2011-06-25 19:38:16 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|diki: oh, ok, good
2027 2011-06-25 19:38:21 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|walks away some more
2028 2011-06-25 19:38:47 <ersi> nameless|: A day or two?
2029 2011-06-25 19:39:48 skeledrew1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3pre)
2030 2011-06-25 19:39:59 <jrmithdobbs> the bots should really just spit this out every time diki joins:
2031 2011-06-25 19:40:00 <jrmithdobbs> http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/diki-solution.jpg
2032 2011-06-25 19:40:16 <jrmithdobbs> so that everyone has fair warning
2033 2011-06-25 19:40:25 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|dead link is dead
2034 2011-06-25 19:40:35 <jrmithdobbs> though image needs editing for exchange rate changes
2035 2011-06-25 19:40:39 <gmaxwell> link works fine.
2036 2011-06-25 19:40:59 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2037 2011-06-25 19:41:00 <ersi> works here as well
2038 2011-06-25 19:41:01 <jrmithdobbs> if it's not working for you you have bad ipv6 routes and your browser is preferring them
2039 2011-06-25 19:41:04 <jrmithdobbs> tbqh
2040 2011-06-25 19:41:05 * diki still has 50 from his last block
2041 2011-06-25 19:41:13 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|hrm?
2042 2011-06-25 19:41:19 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|diki: shut up!
2043 2011-06-25 19:41:24 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|has .006 btc
2044 2011-06-25 19:41:31 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I'm upset by that
2045 2011-06-25 19:41:46 <ersi> You should lastlog all of diki and be upset by that instead.
2046 2011-06-25 19:41:49 <diki> well, i want to find two blocks per ten days like i did before
2047 2011-06-25 19:42:01 skeledrew has joined
2048 2011-06-25 19:42:11 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|ersi: I think I'd end up ragebanning him (a rare occurance for me)
2049 2011-06-25 19:42:14 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2050 2011-06-25 19:42:15 <jrmithdobbs> i should grep diki /path/to/bnc/logs/\#bitcoin-dev_2011*.log; for lulz sometime
2051 2011-06-25 19:42:45 <ersi> nameless|: Probabilty is waaay high on that one.
2052 2011-06-25 19:43:08 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|ersi: on me ragebanning him? Could be
2053 2011-06-25 19:43:18 <jrmithdobbs> he was banned for a while? lol
2054 2011-06-25 19:43:43 Pathin_ has joined
2055 2011-06-25 19:43:43 <ersi> Yeah, you'd first facepalm at least twice - then insta-rageban
2056 2011-06-25 19:44:09 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2057 2011-06-25 19:44:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I think I could take btc bribes
2058 2011-06-25 19:44:19 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|coughs
2059 2011-06-25 19:44:21 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|:p
2060 2011-06-25 19:44:50 <gmaxwell> There really should be a warning, I'd swapped out the name and didn't realize I'd been elected by my poor memory to play sisyphus
2061 2011-06-25 19:44:56 ewal has quit ()
2062 2011-06-25 19:47:31 fimp has joined
2063 2011-06-25 19:49:39 arthurb has joined
2064 2011-06-25 19:50:12 Zeiris_ is now known as Zeiris
2065 2011-06-25 19:50:21 agath has joined
2066 2011-06-25 19:50:29 Incitatus has joined
2067 2011-06-25 19:51:50 <arthurb> Hello all, I just compiled bitcoind, it segfaults on startup. It's compiled in debug mode so I can provide lots of info. I think the segfault is not in the main thread, and it is triggered in a call to  EC_POINT_point2oct() which is part of the openssl library
2068 2011-06-25 19:52:59 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2069 2011-06-25 19:53:00 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Have you tried logarithms?
2070 2011-06-25 19:53:19 d1234 has joined
2071 2011-06-25 19:53:53 Pathin_ has joined
2072 2011-06-25 19:54:05 rynx has joined
2073 2011-06-25 19:55:16 Forexmasterja has joined
2074 2011-06-25 19:55:50 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2075 2011-06-25 19:55:52 <Forexmasterja> Hello, is it possible to remove a single receive address from your wallet ?
2076 2011-06-25 19:56:49 riush has joined
2077 2011-06-25 19:58:58 MinerTE has joined
2078 2011-06-25 20:00:28 <coderrr> Forexmasterja, you could use this patched client to send from that address to an address in a diff wallet: http://forum.mtgoxlive.com/showthread.php/11-Patching-The-Bitcoin-Client-To-Make-It-More-Anonymous
2079 2011-06-25 20:00:56 <coderrr> not sure if thast what you meant by remove
2080 2011-06-25 20:01:05 <phantomcircuit> that patch *appears* to do what it says
2081 2011-06-25 20:01:07 <phantomcircuit> but who knows
2082 2011-06-25 20:02:46 pklaus has joined
2083 2011-06-25 20:03:07 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2084 2011-06-25 20:03:18 micha__ has joined
2085 2011-06-25 20:03:29 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2086 2011-06-25 20:03:40 <BlueMatt> poll: should oldestkeypooltime be 0 or GetTime() if keypool is empty?
2087 2011-06-25 20:04:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: jgarzik tcatm ^
2088 2011-06-25 20:04:04 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2089 2011-06-25 20:04:04 d1234_ has joined
2090 2011-06-25 20:04:16 Pathin_ has joined
2091 2011-06-25 20:05:19 <arthurb> is there a bug tracking website for bitcoin?
2092 2011-06-25 20:05:25 <BlueMatt> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
2093 2011-06-25 20:05:35 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2094 2011-06-25 20:06:16 d1234 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2095 2011-06-25 20:06:38 fimp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2096 2011-06-25 20:06:53 micha_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2097 2011-06-25 20:08:07 nhodges has joined
2098 2011-06-25 20:11:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd say gettime
2099 2011-06-25 20:11:29 <BlueMatt> that was my leaning
2100 2011-06-25 20:11:33 kika_ has joined
2101 2011-06-25 20:11:42 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2102 2011-06-25 20:11:47 <BlueMatt> or max int64?
2103 2011-06-25 20:11:59 <kika_> does anyone know what means when verisign issues a 256bit certificate? that mens a 256 bits rsa key ?
2104 2011-06-25 20:12:03 <kika_> *means
2105 2011-06-25 20:12:17 nanook7 has joined
2106 2011-06-25 20:13:36 phunction has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2107 2011-06-25 20:13:55 IncitatusOnWater has joined
2108 2011-06-25 20:14:05 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2109 2011-06-25 20:14:39 Pathin_ has joined
2110 2011-06-25 20:14:50 <upb> LOL @ jrmithdobbs pic :
2111 2011-06-25 20:14:51 <upb> D
2112 2011-06-25 20:15:11 <upb> cant stop laughing
2113 2011-06-25 20:15:41 nanook7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2114 2011-06-25 20:16:59 <AlonzoTG> lol.
2115 2011-06-25 20:17:15 <AlonzoTG> yeah, that's pretty good, definitely a creative way of saying RTFM.
2116 2011-06-25 20:17:39 <kika_> so basically verisign only offers 256 bits?? what if i want site visitors to get stronger encryption? like using 4028 bits RSA key and AES 256 bits?
2117 2011-06-25 20:17:49 MinerTE has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2118 2011-06-25 20:18:18 nanook7 has joined
2119 2011-06-25 20:18:34 Mononofu has left ()
2120 2011-06-25 20:19:31 <upb> verisign offers 256bit rsa keys ?:P
2121 2011-06-25 20:19:52 <kika_> upb: i think so ?
2122 2011-06-25 20:20:06 <upb> no way
2123 2011-06-25 20:20:14 <upb> 1024 is already deprecated
2124 2011-06-25 20:20:24 <kika_> upb: so why verisign offers certificates up to 256 bits?
2125 2011-06-25 20:20:33 <kika_> upb: what are those 256 bits for?
2126 2011-06-25 20:20:43 <upb> you must be reading something wrong
2127 2011-06-25 20:21:52 <kika_> maybe the signature is 256 bits
2128 2011-06-25 20:21:59 <kika_> it says "Up to 256-bit encryption with 128-bit minimum enables strong encryption for the most site visitors"
2129 2011-06-25 20:22:40 <kika_> maybe you can submit a CSR for a RSA key very long and they just certifify that long key
2130 2011-06-25 20:23:06 <kika_> mtgox seems to be using only 2014 RSA keys
2131 2011-06-25 20:23:25 <phantomcircuit> upb, no he isn't
2132 2011-06-25 20:23:28 takezo420 has joined
2133 2011-06-25 20:23:31 <phantomcircuit> verisign is hilariously stupid
2134 2011-06-25 20:23:37 <BlueMatt> 2014???
2135 2011-06-25 20:23:44 <BlueMatt> not 2048?
2136 2011-06-25 20:24:02 <kika_> BlueMatt: sorry 2048
2137 2011-06-25 20:24:05 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2138 2011-06-25 20:24:12 larsivi has joined
2139 2011-06-25 20:24:15 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: the missing bits were taxed out by verisign
2140 2011-06-25 20:24:36 <BlueMatt> nameless|: lol, no if that were the case, it would be something like 2 bits
2141 2011-06-25 20:24:39 <kika_> MagicalTux: your webserver seems to be using RC4 for encryption? i recommend you to switch the webserver to use AES 256, RC4 is insecure
2142 2011-06-25 20:24:44 Pathin_ has joined
2143 2011-06-25 20:24:47 <upb> kika_: maybe they refer to the symmetric encryption
2144 2011-06-25 20:24:53 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: they were greedy
2145 2011-06-25 20:24:58 <upb> but thats up to the webservers ciphersuites really
2146 2011-06-25 20:25:05 <phantomcircuit> kika_, rc4 is significantly faster
2147 2011-06-25 20:25:05 <BlueMatt> nameless|: no, I mean 2 bits left...
2148 2011-06-25 20:25:09 <kika_> upb: symmetric encryption depends on the browser and webserver that you use and how they are settup
2149 2011-06-25 20:25:13 <upb> yes
2150 2011-06-25 20:25:15 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: oh, my bad
2151 2011-06-25 20:25:18 <BlueMatt> kika_: rc4 is much faster, and secure enough
2152 2011-06-25 20:25:24 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I don't use verisign, I just use self-signed keys
2153 2011-06-25 20:25:34 <BlueMatt> that kind of defeats the purpose
2154 2011-06-25 20:25:39 <BlueMatt> at least startssl or cacert
2155 2011-06-25 20:26:21 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Well, yeah, I had a CA that signed them, but I self-signed the CA
2156 2011-06-25 20:26:23 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|or something like that
2157 2011-06-25 20:26:32 <BlueMatt> wtf?
2158 2011-06-25 20:26:34 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I don't really remember because it was ages ago that I did it
2159 2011-06-25 20:26:46 <BlueMatt> why would you sign the ca?
2160 2011-06-25 20:26:49 <kika_> BlueMatt: RC4 is much less secure than AES256
2161 2011-06-25 20:27:11 <phantomcircuit> kika_, no it actually isn't, just from the first MB of data
2162 2011-06-25 20:27:14 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: cause I didn't feel like spenidng money to get it signed
2163 2011-06-25 20:27:25 <BlueMatt> nameless|: hence startssl or cacert
2164 2011-06-25 20:27:26 <BlueMatt> both free
2165 2011-06-25 20:27:35 <kika_> nameless|: use startsll its free
2166 2011-06-25 20:27:37 <phantomcircuit> kika_, rc4 is ~ 4x faster than aes
2167 2011-06-25 20:27:43 <kika_> nameless|: thats what mtgox uses for example
2168 2011-06-25 20:27:59 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|BlueMatt: let me quantify the server I was running
2169 2011-06-25 20:28:05 <kika_> my question is then the rsa key lenght isnt dependant on the CA
2170 2011-06-25 20:28:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|It was (and is) an IRC server
2171 2011-06-25 20:28:12 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|that supports SSL
2172 2011-06-25 20:28:27 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|that is really only used on my VPN
2173 2011-06-25 20:28:32 <upb> that actually makes sense if you make the users trust your ca
2174 2011-06-25 20:28:33 <BlueMatt> still, there is no point not getting it signed unless its only you
2175 2011-06-25 20:28:36 <kika_> startssl will sign a public key for very long RSA keys?
2176 2011-06-25 20:29:12 <kika_> will startssl sign my 15360 bits RSA key for example ?
2177 2011-06-25 20:29:14 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|regardless, it's been done and I am too lazy to change it
2178 2011-06-25 20:29:44 elkenpur has joined
2179 2011-06-25 20:29:50 <kika_> if i generate a 15360 RSA key for my website, do you guys think startssl or verisign will generate a certificate for me on that public key ?
2180 2011-06-25 20:30:09 <phantomcircuit> kika_, 8192 is the longest openssl will use
2181 2011-06-25 20:30:25 <kika_> phantomcircuit: why i should bother about openssl ?
2182 2011-06-25 20:30:32 <kika_> phantomcircuit: browsers use it ?
2183 2011-06-25 20:30:37 <phantomcircuit> are you serious
2184 2011-06-25 20:30:49 <kika_> phantomcircuit: the browsers dont support keys longer than 8192 ?=
2185 2011-06-25 20:30:58 <phantomcircuit> the browsers dont
2186 2011-06-25 20:31:01 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2187 2011-06-25 20:31:04 <phantomcircuit> openvpn is 4096 tops
2188 2011-06-25 20:31:14 <kika_> phantomcircuit: you are worried because my webserver wont support such lenghty key ?
2189 2011-06-25 20:31:25 <phantomcircuit> nothing will support that key length
2190 2011-06-25 20:31:32 <gmaxwell> I expect there are still things limited to 1024 because thats all rsaref allowed.
2191 2011-06-25 20:31:32 <kika_> phantomcircuit: i can hack a bit openssl to make it support 15360 key on my webserver
2192 2011-06-25 20:31:49 takezo420 has quit (Quit: takezo420)
2193 2011-06-25 20:31:56 <kika_> gmaxwell: whats rsaref?
2194 2011-06-25 20:32:13 <phantomcircuit> the original rsa reference implementation
2195 2011-06-25 20:32:14 <phantomcircuit> lol
2196 2011-06-25 20:32:26 <kika_> gmaxwell: but 1024 is insecure nowadays
2197 2011-06-25 20:32:35 <gmaxwell> No, not really.
2198 2011-06-25 20:32:49 <gmaxwell> How many 1024-bit nearprimes have been factored?
2199 2011-06-25 20:32:52 <kika_> how come? nist told 1024 bits rsa keys are no longer secure starting 2010
2200 2011-06-25 20:33:01 <kika_> year
2201 2011-06-25 20:33:09 <gmaxwell> Yes, they are getting a bit less advisable thats not the same as "insecure"
2202 2011-06-25 20:33:23 <denisx> because a bank needs it secure for 20 years
2203 2011-06-25 20:33:33 <nutcase> hey what happens if you send some btc but its saying the status is offline of the address you sent it to?
2204 2011-06-25 20:33:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, lots of things used rsaref even though it was crap because it made RSA less prone to patent threats.
2205 2011-06-25 20:33:43 <kika_> so browsers dont support elliptic curve cryptography yet? or longer RSA keys than 8192 ??
2206 2011-06-25 20:33:55 <Nicksasa> Is there a way to check the confirmations of an tx without it being in the wallet ?
2207 2011-06-25 20:33:56 freakazoid has joined
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2209 2011-06-25 20:34:15 <gmaxwell> kika_: keysizes that large are mildly nuts, and also slow as hell.
2210 2011-06-25 20:34:28 <kika_> gmaxwell: mildly nuts why ?
2211 2011-06-25 20:34:32 <gmaxwell> kika_: and ecc is not widely supported due to certicom's constant patent scaremongering.
2212 2011-06-25 20:34:45 <kika_> gmaxwell: nsa tells 15360 provides equivalent security as aes 256 bits
2213 2011-06-25 20:34:53 <gmaxwell> kika_: you know the strengh of the is not linear with the size, right?
2214 2011-06-25 20:35:13 citiz3n has joined
2215 2011-06-25 20:35:16 <kika_> gmaxwell: nsa is telling the strenght if linear with the size
2216 2011-06-25 20:35:19 Pathin_ has joined
2217 2011-06-25 20:35:20 <kika_> *is linear
2218 2011-06-25 20:35:21 <gmaxwell> kika_: 128 bits of effective security is not compromisable on classical computers on purely energy consumption grounds.
2219 2011-06-25 20:35:24 <phantomcircuit> kika_, link?
2220 2011-06-25 20:35:51 <kika_> http://www.nsa.gov/business/programs/elliptic_curve.shtml
2221 2011-06-25 20:36:02 <kika_> phantomcircuit: read the table there
2222 2011-06-25 20:36:08 <kika_> "Table 1: NIST Recommended Key Sizes"
2223 2011-06-25 20:36:19 <phantomcircuit> those are the recommended key sizes
2224 2011-06-25 20:36:20 <kika_> as you can see the security is linear with key size
2225 2011-06-25 20:36:26 <phantomcircuit> which have a GIANT margin of security
2226 2011-06-25 20:37:14 <kika_> phantomcircuit: what do you mean ?
2227 2011-06-25 20:37:22 <gmaxwell> kika_: that certantly isn't claiming it's linear. wtf.
2228 2011-06-25 20:37:23 <kika_> phantomcircuit: which margin you mean?
2229 2011-06-25 20:38:05 <kika_> gmaxwell: im not worried about classical computers
2230 2011-06-25 20:38:20 <gmaxwell> Then it's already game over.
2231 2011-06-25 20:38:44 ahihi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2232 2011-06-25 20:38:44 <kika_> gmaxwell: what do you mean?
2233 2011-06-25 20:38:49 <gmaxwell> Linear would be saying that if 3072=128 then 1045347431181122959759486794030391945592832=256
2234 2011-06-25 20:38:51 <xtalmath> kika_ what are you worried about then?
2235 2011-06-25 20:39:09 <kika_> i want to use 15360 RSA key for my bitcoin site
2236 2011-06-25 20:39:43 <xtalmath> "kika_: gmaxwell: im not worried about classical computers"
2237 2011-06-25 20:39:46 <kika_> but seems like its not possible because browsers and webservers dont support keys larger than 8192 weird, very weird
2238 2011-06-25 20:40:04 <kika_> xtalmath: im worried about clusters of very big computers
2239 2011-06-25 20:40:53 <kika_> xtalmath: quantum computers
2240 2011-06-25 20:41:02 <xtalmath> because bitcion is doing 2 SHA256's at over 2^50 per 600seconds rate?
2241 2011-06-25 20:41:02 <gmaxwell> kika_: on a sufficiently proper quantum computer cracking 15360 bit RSA would only take 1.5e13 operations.
2242 2011-06-25 20:41:16 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2243 2011-06-25 20:41:20 <xtalmath> kika_: google "Post-Quantum Cryptography"
2244 2011-06-25 20:41:31 <kika_> xtalmath: i already know about that
2245 2011-06-25 20:41:32 Baksch has joined
2246 2011-06-25 20:41:45 <BlueMatt> quantum computers will break any size key in an instant, anything like 1024+ means any sized supercomputer wont come close
2247 2011-06-25 20:42:05 <xtalmath> you can sign and do cryptography on normal computers, with as far as we know not quantum algo available to crack it even if the quantum computers exist
2248 2011-06-25 20:42:38 <kika_> BlueMatt: so i think ill just use 8192 key
2249 2011-06-25 20:42:45 <BlueMatt> or 2048
2250 2011-06-25 20:42:50 <xtalmath> kika_ doesnt make sense at all
2251 2011-06-25 20:42:52 <BlueMatt> or even 1024 if you want
2252 2011-06-25 20:42:57 <gmaxwell> yea, and actually the post-quantum stuff isn't insanely inefficient if your comparison point is k00ky 15360-bit rsa.
2253 2011-06-25 20:42:57 <kika_> also
2254 2011-06-25 20:43:01 <kika_> i have been reading
2255 2011-06-25 20:43:05 <kika_> and there are lattice attacks
2256 2011-06-25 20:43:13 <xtalmath> if somebody can crack 2048 the breakthrough probably also allows to crack 8192
2257 2011-06-25 20:43:14 <kika_> on EDCH
2258 2011-06-25 20:43:18 <BlueMatt> 8192 == 2048 in terms of security here
2259 2011-06-25 20:43:21 <kika_> so basically i think bitcoin is at risk
2260 2011-06-25 20:43:27 <gmaxwell> kika_ ...
2261 2011-06-25 20:43:27 <xtalmath> EDCH ?
2262 2011-06-25 20:43:29 chuck is now known as chuck-
2263 2011-06-25 20:43:38 <gmaxwell> You read a paper about error injection attacks.
2264 2011-06-25 20:43:43 <gmaxwell> Its not applicable to bitcoin.
2265 2011-06-25 20:43:44 <Baksch> anybody know when Mt Gox Trading will be opened?
2266 2011-06-25 20:43:47 <kika_> basically the attacks i have been reading focus on get a elliptic curve key from a signature
2267 2011-06-25 20:44:00 sacredchao has joined
2268 2011-06-25 20:44:02 <xtalmath> kika_ you mean the recent paper on timing attacks?
2269 2011-06-25 20:44:12 <gmaxwell> kika_: yes, by flipping bits in ram.
2270 2011-06-25 20:44:12 <kika_> no, lattice attack
2271 2011-06-25 20:44:14 br00t has joined
2272 2011-06-25 20:44:19 <gmaxwell> kika_: and it's _irrelevant_ to bitcoin.
2273 2011-06-25 20:44:25 <xtalmath> kika_ photo or I dont believe it
2274 2011-06-25 20:44:34 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: I can give you the paper... hold on.
2275 2011-06-25 20:44:42 <kika_> sorry i meant ECDSA
2276 2011-06-25 20:44:46 pyro-DerWahre- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2277 2011-06-25 20:44:58 <kika_> well i readed a paper on lattice attacks
2278 2011-06-25 20:45:01 <phantomcircuit> kika_, a lattice attack is VERY difficult to pull off
2279 2011-06-25 20:45:05 ahihi2 has joined
2280 2011-06-25 20:45:08 <kika_> that allow to get the private key from a ECDSA signature
2281 2011-06-25 20:45:15 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2282 2011-06-25 20:45:16 <xtalmath> kika_ readed the paper again
2283 2011-06-25 20:45:23 <xtalmath> (imperative)
2284 2011-06-25 20:45:42 <kika_> xtalmath: why difficult? well the paper told that
2285 2011-06-25 20:45:46 Pathin_ has joined
2286 2011-06-25 20:46:03 chuck has joined
2287 2011-06-25 20:46:04 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: e.g. http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/FDTC.2009.38
2288 2011-06-25 20:46:15 <kika_> here you have
2289 2011-06-25 20:46:16 <kika_> it
2290 2011-06-25 20:46:17 <kika_> http://eprint.iacr.org/2009/363.pdf
2291 2011-06-25 20:46:25 k^^ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
2292 2011-06-25 20:47:47 eao has joined
2293 2011-06-25 20:47:52 <kika_> gmaxwell: no the paper i readed is the one im posing you here and its a lattice attack that seems to be more effective than the one you are propossing, and easier to implement
2294 2011-06-25 20:47:54 chuck has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2295 2011-06-25 20:48:35 <gmaxwell> kika_: block zero awaits your eager cracking.
2296 2011-06-25 20:48:38 chuck has joined
2297 2011-06-25 20:48:44 <kika_> so basically if someone implements the attack, that person will be able to own all the bitcoins that are nowadays on circulation i think, he will be able to get all the private keys for all the coins
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2300 2011-06-25 20:49:45 <kika_> gmaxwell: what do you mean ?
2301 2011-06-25 20:49:47 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2302 2011-06-25 20:51:00 <kika_> what do you guys think about this lattice attack to take bitcoin down ?
2303 2011-06-25 20:51:10 <diki> darn...nothing interesting in the new bleach chapter...
2304 2011-06-25 20:51:13 <diki> a bit disappointed
2305 2011-06-25 20:51:35 <kika_> do you guys think bitcoin is at risk by this attack ?
2306 2011-06-25 20:51:45 <gmaxwell> No.
2307 2011-06-25 20:51:52 <kika_> gmaxwell: why ?
2308 2011-06-25 20:52:04 <xtalmath> kika_: I think your leaving part of the threat model out of the equation, but I am reading it, have some patience if you want my response (could be an hour from now)
2309 2011-06-25 20:52:16 <kika_> ok
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2311 2011-06-25 20:52:52 <diki> kika:the only problem i see with bitcoin is that once a coin has been destroyed, it's destroyed for good
2312 2011-06-25 20:52:58 denisx has joined
2313 2011-06-25 20:52:58 <xtalmath> kika_ even if the threat is real, public keys are not published until theyre spent in bitcoin, so at most it would mean not to reuse addresses, giving us time to change signing scheme
2314 2011-06-25 20:53:00 Baksch has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2316 2011-06-25 20:53:32 <kika_> xtalmath: i tought pubkeys are published on the coinbase
2317 2011-06-25 20:53:45 <xtalmath> diki: how do you destroy a coin? you can only lose track of the private key, freezing would be a better word
2318 2011-06-25 20:53:46 <kika_> xtalmath: or almost on the tx that distributes the coinbase
2319 2011-06-25 20:53:59 chuck has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2320 2011-06-25 20:54:01 <prof7bit> <diki> [...] it's destroyed for good <-- this is only a problem for the one destroying his coins
2321 2011-06-25 20:54:01 <xtalmath> kika_ no, addresses are hashes of public keys
2322 2011-06-25 20:54:08 <diki> xtalmath:i have a wallet with 50 coins...i delete the wallet=no more coins
2323 2011-06-25 20:54:16 <xtalmath> kika_ unless you also claim we can invert a double SHA256
2324 2011-06-25 20:54:32 <xtalmath> diki: that is true
2325 2011-06-25 20:54:38 <diki> although they exist
2326 2011-06-25 20:54:42 <diki> you cant access them
2327 2011-06-25 20:54:47 <diki> rendering them useless to anyone
2328 2011-06-25 20:54:53 <xtalmath> no
2329 2011-06-25 20:54:56 chuck has joined
2330 2011-06-25 20:55:00 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2331 2011-06-25 20:55:10 <diki> yes, cause you can't ever use them again
2332 2011-06-25 20:55:12 <xtalmath> making total supply smaller and value of circulating coins bigge
2333 2011-06-25 20:55:17 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: the coinbase ones actually do use the public keys.
2334 2011-06-25 20:55:32 zxer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2335 2011-06-25 20:55:33 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: though they don't have to, they just do right now.
2336 2011-06-25 20:55:40 <kika_> if i have 20 coins and i shred those private keys for those coins, then no one will ever be able to use those coins
2337 2011-06-25 20:55:46 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: of course, as soon as you spend from the block thats no longer so.
2338 2011-06-25 20:55:54 <xtalmath> gmaxwell? client mining publishes public key instead of his bitcoin adress?
2339 2011-06-25 20:56:15 <xtalmath> or specific pool mining schemes publish public key?
2340 2011-06-25 20:56:15 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: yep. (not eligius blocks, but everyone elses)
2341 2011-06-25 20:56:15 <kika_> if someone just buys all the bitcoins using USD and then destroys all the private keys, no more bitcoins will be able to get in circulation
2342 2011-06-25 20:56:23 chuck- has quit (Quit: leaving)
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2344 2011-06-25 20:56:48 <upb> yeah but just like selling ~300K btc took the market to 0.01
2345 2011-06-25 20:56:49 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: where in code can I find this? is this visible on blockexplorer?
2346 2011-06-25 20:56:54 <upb> that would make the price high
2347 2011-06-25 20:57:01 chuck has quit (Changing host)
2348 2011-06-25 20:57:01 chuck has joined
2349 2011-06-25 20:57:05 <upb> so its not feasible to buy all btc
2350 2011-06-25 20:57:12 <xtalmath> kika_ in the process somebody will not sell his btc and be very rich
2351 2011-06-25 20:57:14 <gmaxwell> kika_: that particular attack requires the values in the signature to take very specific values.
2352 2011-06-25 20:57:43 <kika_> gmaxwell: yes and how do we know that bitcoin isnt using those values already?
2353 2011-06-25 20:58:20 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2354 2011-06-25 20:58:37 <xtalmath> kika_ you change your threat model: first it was that ECDSA is insta vulnerable to this attack, now its satoshi planting a backdoor of specific values in combination with this attack
2355 2011-06-25 20:58:37 <gmaxwell> Because it's exceptionally unlikely to happen by chance.
2356 2011-06-25 20:59:02 Pathin_ has joined
2357 2011-06-25 20:59:06 <xtalmath> kika_ no serious security discussion can take place with changing threat models
2358 2011-06-25 20:59:08 <gmaxwell> The attack is almost as narrow as saying "if the secret key is 5 then we can determine the secret key very easily"
2359 2011-06-25 20:59:48 <gmaxwell> The fact that third parties don't choose what we sign in bitcoin, and the signature includes a hash, also makes that attack ineffective.
2360 2011-06-25 21:00:50 <kika_> gmaxwell: i tought that what everyone signs on bitcoin is fixed
2361 2011-06-25 21:00:57 <gmaxwell> ...
2362 2011-06-25 21:00:58 <gmaxwell> No.
2363 2011-06-25 21:01:19 <kika_> gmaxwell: i think the signature is the previous public key or something like that plus the timestamp
2364 2011-06-25 21:01:32 <kika_> so you are basically signing know values
2365 2011-06-25 21:01:38 <kika_> *known
2366 2011-06-25 21:02:27 <gmaxwell> The signature covers the whole transaction, of course, all the inputs and outputs too.  Known isn't the issue, chosen is the issue, and there is a 256 bit hash function in your way even if you had free control of the input an knew everything else.
2367 2011-06-25 21:02:35 <upb> nah, that would allow someone to swap out the output while its in transit
2368 2011-06-25 21:03:08 <xtalmath> kika_ more realistic concerns would be tracing back which random function the statically linked in openssl library calls on different operating systems..
2369 2011-06-25 21:03:30 davex__ has joined
2370 2011-06-25 21:03:45 <kika_> xtalmath: why you mean that is a concern?
2371 2011-06-25 21:04:33 <xtalmath> kika_ if I answer that youll retroll the information back to me
2372 2011-06-25 21:05:05 <xtalmath> long story short, as far as anybody seems to know there is no cryptographic flaw
2373 2011-06-25 21:05:27 <curiositysquared> what's the best forum/channel to let interested parties know I'm selling 5870's and 5770's in Seattle? (moving and can't find a decent place to host my mining operation anymore)
2374 2011-06-25 21:05:56 <xtalmath> apparently bitcoin-dev :(
2375 2011-06-25 21:05:56 <gmaxwell> curiositysquared #bitcoin-mining
2376 2011-06-25 21:06:18 <arthurb> I've tried compiling the bitcoin source (current trunk on github) on two different machines, every time I get a segfault when starting the daemon
2377 2011-06-25 21:06:47 <cut> achievement unlocked?
2378 2011-06-25 21:07:18 <arthurb> could someone try and build from the trunk, and see if the problem happens
2379 2011-06-25 21:07:20 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2380 2011-06-25 21:07:33 <arthurb> I've been extra careful to provide it the libs with the right versions
2381 2011-06-25 21:07:35 <cut> is it a libevent problem?
2382 2011-06-25 21:07:42 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: platform?
2383 2011-06-25 21:08:16 [Tycho] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2384 2011-06-25 21:08:24 <gmaxwell> curiositysquared: How much are you asking?
2385 2011-06-25 21:08:50 Pathin_ has joined
2386 2011-06-25 21:09:03 shockdiode has joined
2387 2011-06-25 21:09:24 <arthurb> jrmithdobbs: linux both, a CenTos 5.3 and a recent ubuntu
2388 2011-06-25 21:09:46 <arthurb> actually depending on the mix of libraries, it's either a segfault, or a DBException being thrown
2389 2011-06-25 21:09:56 [Tycho] has joined
2390 2011-06-25 21:10:08 <arthurb> I'm using berkely db 4.7.25 downloaded from oracle and compiled from sources
2391 2011-06-25 21:10:15 <phrontist> did anyone see that patch posted on the forums?
2392 2011-06-25 21:10:27 <phrontist> the one that let you choose which addresses to send from?
2393 2011-06-25 21:10:51 <phrontist> I haven't had a chance to look over the code, but that sounds like a feature to prioritize to me
2394 2011-06-25 21:13:11 rynx has joined
2395 2011-06-25 21:13:37 <jrmithdobbs> phrontist: you can already sendfromaddress though?
2396 2011-06-25 21:13:49 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: weird, what's the backtrace in gdb say?
2397 2011-06-25 21:13:55 <curiositysquared> gmaxwell: they're selling for 220-250 on ebay so I'm asking 250.
2398 2011-06-25 21:13:57 <phrontist> jrmithdobbs: with the api, yeah?
2399 2011-06-25 21:14:02 <curiositysquared> (expecting some haggle)
2400 2011-06-25 21:14:06 <phrontist> jrmithdobbs: as I understand it this provides a GUI hook
2401 2011-06-25 21:14:06 <curiositysquared> http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sys/2462340587.html
2402 2011-06-25 21:14:18 <jrmithdobbs> phrontist: ah
2403 2011-06-25 21:14:25 <jrmithdobbs> phrontist: i care 0 about the gui ;p
2404 2011-06-25 21:14:51 <phrontist> jrmithdobbs: :-)
2405 2011-06-25 21:15:11 <phrontist> for a lot of the potential and actual userbase, I think it would matter quite a bit
2406 2011-06-25 21:15:21 <phrontist> but agreed, I'm happy to interact via curl
2407 2011-06-25 21:15:37 <jrmithdobbs> phrontist: i don't think anything in the gui matters until it's replaced with qt and thereby actually has active developers again ;p
2408 2011-06-25 21:15:46 <phrontist> yeah, about that
2409 2011-06-25 21:15:50 <phrontist> what is the gui framework now?
2410 2011-06-25 21:15:53 <gmaxwell> curl? .. well sure, but bitcoin's cli works fine.
2411 2011-06-25 21:15:54 <jrmithdobbs> wx
2412 2011-06-25 21:16:03 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q))
2413 2011-06-25 21:16:28 <phrontist> gmaxwell: I actually just cat raw bytes to a netpipe :-)
2414 2011-06-25 21:16:49 <phrontist> hmm... is anyone working on Qt?
2415 2011-06-25 21:17:07 <riush> correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt the main thing that patch does making sure the bitcoins you send are only drawed from addresses belonging to that account?
2416 2011-06-25 21:17:15 <gmaxwell> Sending from an address is likely to confuse the heck out of people, as their addresses are dilluted over time due to change and much of the balance becomes unreachable from addresses they actually know.
2417 2011-06-25 21:17:19 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2418 2011-06-25 21:17:54 <gmaxwell> account binding would make more sense than address binding.
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2420 2011-06-25 21:19:05 <coderrr> riush, you asking about my patch ?
2421 2011-06-25 21:19:22 <riush> coderrr, yes
2422 2011-06-25 21:19:54 <coderrr> riush, yea, it allows you to specify a single address to send from
2423 2011-06-25 21:20:04 <coderrr> so you can be sure no other addresses are used for that tx
2424 2011-06-25 21:20:24 <riush> ah okay, an address, not an account
2425 2011-06-25 21:20:32 <gmaxwell> coderrr: so what happens when all your coin is off in change addresses that you don't know?
2426 2011-06-25 21:20:33 <coderrr> yea, my patch has nothing to do w accounts
2427 2011-06-25 21:20:35 shockdiode has left ("Konversation terminated!")
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2429 2011-06-25 21:21:06 <riush> okay then that's what i got wrong..
2430 2011-06-25 21:21:07 <coderrr> gmaxwell, im working on another patch now that will try to show you where the coins originated from
2431 2011-06-25 21:22:05 <coderrr> gmaxwell, but yea this isnt necessarily for everyday users, its targeted at ppl who have a better understanding of how bitcoin works
2432 2011-06-25 21:22:10 <phrontist> gmaxwell: You mean diluted by the process of returning "change" during transactions, right?
2433 2011-06-25 21:22:45 <gmaxwell> coderrr: something that compartmented accounts and would prompt you for permission to borrow coins from other accounts would be neat too.
2434 2011-06-25 21:22:56 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2435 2011-06-25 21:23:05 <gmaxwell> coderrr: yea, and a manual coin selection / viewing would be kinda neat.
2436 2011-06-25 21:23:08 <phrontist> I was thinking of whipping up a site that would visualize the datablockexplorer provides as graphviz graphs
2437 2011-06-25 21:23:26 <phrontist> http://www.graphviz.org/content/fsm
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2439 2011-06-25 21:27:14 <riush> hm.. what i would like to do in my web-wallet is encrypt the keys belonging to an account with the account password and only 'load' them when the user logs in (and enters his password)
2440 2011-06-25 21:27:24 <riush> but the more i think/try/read about it the more confused i get..
2441 2011-06-25 21:27:52 <riush> could someone please enlighten me if thats maybe possible already, or might be in the near future with some patches currently in the works?
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2444 2011-06-25 21:29:53 <Soak> hello, I'm trying to connect to bitcoind on my dedicated server (rpcallowip=clientserveradress), loading during ~20 seconds and nothing appear.. what's wrong?
2445 2011-06-25 21:31:10 freakazoid has joined
2446 2011-06-25 21:31:56 <gmaxwell> riush: that would be a fantastic thing for you to do.
2447 2011-06-25 21:32:31 <gmaxwell> riush: we kinda blew up the prior encryption design, and sipa was advocating a new format that would allow multiple encryption keys, I think.
2448 2011-06-25 21:33:08 <riush> well, i already tried, based on sipa's showwallet branch, to remove a private key, which kinda worked, but i didn't take into account how balance was handled internally..
2449 2011-06-25 21:33:22 markio has joined
2450 2011-06-25 21:33:33 <riush> if the internal encryption would allow different keys per account, that would be the ideal solution imho
2451 2011-06-25 21:33:50 <markio> difficulty hit a lot earlier than people were expecting??
2452 2011-06-25 21:33:55 <gmaxwell> riush: you should post in the wallet encryption thread and state your feature need, because while I think the format last proposed would allow that I don't think anyone was planning on it.
2453 2011-06-25 21:33:55 <luke-jr> yes
2454 2011-06-25 21:34:13 <markio> nuts
2455 2011-06-25 21:34:35 <riush> gmaxwell, okay i'll do that, thanks :)
2456 2011-06-25 21:35:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: /msg'ed you that stuff we were talking about earlier ;p
2457 2011-06-25 21:36:28 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2458 2011-06-25 21:36:39 <gmaxwell> riush: http://www.yubico.com/YubiHSM < in addition to what you're planning, you could pass the keys through one of these so that the server part of the keying material can't be stolen.
2459 2011-06-25 21:37:44 Pathin_ has joined
2460 2011-06-25 21:38:41 <arthurb> jrmithdobbs: I don't get a backtrace, but it fails in EC_point_point2oct
2461 2011-06-25 21:39:04 <arthurb> now that I've recompiled with db-4.7 I don't even get to that point, it just throws an exception
2462 2011-06-25 21:40:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: is this possible? https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.msg283624#msg283624
2463 2011-06-25 21:40:19 <riush> gmaxwell, yeah, i've been meaning to look into yubikeys already
2464 2011-06-25 21:41:24 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thats what type-2 in my post does, unless I misunderstood your post.
2465 2011-06-25 21:41:29 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2466 2011-06-25 21:42:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: awesome, I wasn't sure
2467 2011-06-25 21:42:40 <gmaxwell> And yes, you could have multiple chains of them, so long as the server with the private key material knows about all the chains.
2468 2011-06-25 21:42:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what's the B_secret for?
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2471 2011-06-25 21:44:48 <arthurb> jrmithdobbs: need more info?
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2473 2011-06-25 21:45:45 elkenpur has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2478 2011-06-25 21:47:03 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the B_secret lets you have multiple chains, also keeps someone who knows a couple of addresses from discovering all the rest.
2479 2011-06-25 21:47:04 <kika_> yubi hsm? why not ironkey fips approved level 3 ?
2480 2011-06-25 21:47:19 pklaus has left ()
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2482 2011-06-25 21:47:46 <gmaxwell> kika_: er, isn't ironkey just an encrypted usb drive.
2483 2011-06-25 21:48:06 <RevolutionMasta_> Yeah
2484 2011-06-25 21:48:10 <RevolutionMasta_> I'd rather just use Truecrypt
2485 2011-06-25 21:49:04 <gmaxwell> The point of the HSM is to have keying material for hashing/encrypting passwords which is not accessible to the system cpu.
2486 2011-06-25 21:50:01 <kika_> gmaxwell: but if you plug the hsm then the keys are accesible to the pc
2487 2011-06-25 21:50:14 <gmaxwell> So, you can ask the magic black box... "Oh random oracle, what say you about '12345'" and it gives you a HMAC of that with some internal key. So even if someone owns up your webserver, they can't copy the encrypted wallets and try to guess user's passwords offline because they need your oracle.
2488 2011-06-25 21:50:26 <gmaxwell> kika_: the keys are not accessible, it's a random oracle.
2489 2011-06-25 21:50:37 <gmaxwell> You can set the key, but not fetch it back out.
2490 2011-06-25 21:50:47 <kika_> gmaxwell: i see
2491 2011-06-25 21:50:54 <arthurb> I think the crash is when it tries to access the key in wallet.dat
2492 2011-06-25 21:51:12 <arthurb> there's a call to i2o_ECPublicKey in key.h
2493 2011-06-25 21:51:21 <arthurb> and that's where the segfault happens
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2499 2011-06-25 22:01:07 <cosurgi> tcatm: mining pool statistics on the right are out of date.
2500 2011-06-25 22:01:34 kika_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2501 2011-06-25 22:01:36 sgornick has joined
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2504 2011-06-25 22:05:30 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: you have a broken openssl?
2505 2011-06-25 22:06:09 <ericmock> does anyone know the person that had the bitcoin client rejected by Apple?
2506 2011-06-25 22:06:09 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2511 2011-06-25 22:08:45 erus`_ is now known as erus`
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2514 2011-06-25 22:09:53 <diki> so...why in pushpoold is the target written backwards compared to the examples in the wiki?
2515 2011-06-25 22:10:45 <xtalmath> is the probability of a single hashing meeting the target requirement 1/(difficulty * 2^32) ?
2516 2011-06-25 22:11:54 <phantomcircuit> diki, again because of little vs big endian
2517 2011-06-25 22:12:01 * phantomcircuit stops answering the question
2518 2011-06-25 22:12:59 <diki> phantom, afaik there is no byteswap in the target
2519 2011-06-25 22:13:14 <diki> only when the solution is sent back to the pool software
2520 2011-06-25 22:13:41 <diki> that is when the hash get's byteswapped
2521 2011-06-25 22:14:13 <arthurb> jrmithdobbs: I don't think so, I've tried on two machines with two installs of openssl
2522 2011-06-25 22:14:15 <arthurb> no problem
2523 2011-06-25 22:14:23 eao has joined
2524 2011-06-25 22:14:23 <arthurb> maybe bitcoin is passing a bad pointer ?
2525 2011-06-25 22:15:56 markio has quit ()
2526 2011-06-25 22:15:57 <BlueMatt> arthurb: can you try latest nightly from bitcoin.bluematt.me?
2527 2011-06-25 22:16:19 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2528 2011-06-25 22:16:25 <BlueMatt> BlueMattBot: status Bitcoin
2529 2011-06-25 22:16:25 <BlueMattBot> Bitcoin: last build: 64 (1 day 6 hr ago): SUCCESS: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/64/
2530 2011-06-25 22:16:54 Sebastan has left ()
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2532 2011-06-25 22:17:23 Pathin_ has joined
2533 2011-06-25 22:18:46 <arthurb> not super comfortable with git yet
2534 2011-06-25 22:18:50 <arthurb> how do I pull that?
2535 2011-06-25 22:19:01 <BlueMatt> dont pull, download the tar, untar and run
2536 2011-06-25 22:19:13 <mrb_> jgarzik: bitcoinpool is at 282 Gh/s according to its homepage. that's 1.7% of the global bitcoin network hashrate. the slice shown for bitcoinpool on bitcoinwatch.com is much smaller than 1.7%...
2537 2011-06-25 22:20:03 <mrb_> it would be nice if you added the numerical rate of each pool to this chart.
2538 2011-06-25 22:20:24 <arthurb> where is the tgz?
2539 2011-06-25 22:20:34 RobboNZ has joined
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2541 2011-06-25 22:21:14 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2542 2011-06-25 22:21:36 <arthurb> BlueMatt: where is the tgz on this page?
2543 2011-06-25 22:21:46 <egecko> where is the pie chart?
2544 2011-06-25 22:23:00 <BlueMatt> arthurb: bitcoin.bluematt.me look for linux nightly
2545 2011-06-25 22:24:42 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2546 2011-06-25 22:24:55 <arthurb> BlueMatt: I see ubuntu-i686-nightly
2547 2011-06-25 22:25:05 <arthurb> but these are binaries
2548 2011-06-25 22:25:05 <BlueMatt> try that
2549 2011-06-25 22:25:07 <BlueMatt> yes
2550 2011-06-25 22:25:22 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: yes he's trying to see if your buildchain is fucked up or your system
2551 2011-06-25 22:25:25 <jrmithdobbs> basically
2552 2011-06-25 22:25:39 <jrmithdobbs> s/buildchain/build toolchain/
2553 2011-06-25 22:26:19 <arthurb> huuum
2554 2011-06-25 22:26:34 conjre has joined
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2556 2011-06-25 22:26:45 call-cc has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2557 2011-06-25 22:27:14 <arthurb> ok
2558 2011-06-25 22:27:16 <arthurb> it segfaults
2559 2011-06-25 22:27:29 <BlueMatt> does it for anyone else?
2560 2011-06-25 22:27:29 Pathin_ has joined
2561 2011-06-25 22:27:40 <BlueMatt> do you have any active network interfaces, ie ifconfig up'd
2562 2011-06-25 22:27:47 <arthurb> yes
2563 2011-06-25 22:27:49 <BlueMatt> oh wait...you are on irc...
2564 2011-06-25 22:27:55 <jrmithdobbs> i don't have systems of either type (centos or ubuntu) to test on
2565 2011-06-25 22:28:15 <BlueMatt> any linux would be useful
2566 2011-06-25 22:28:16 <arthurb> well I could be on another machine, and typing this into another machine not connected to any network
2567 2011-06-25 22:28:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: don't have a linux host to test on atm at all, actually ;p
2568 2011-06-25 22:29:08 <BlueMatt> you...dont...have...a...linux...box?????
2569 2011-06-25 22:29:11 <BlueMatt> wtf are you running now?
2570 2011-06-25 22:29:33 <jrmithdobbs> at least, not on anything that wouldn't fill up the disk just trying to fetch the initial chunks of the blockchain it'd kick off immediately
2571 2011-06-25 22:29:55 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: osx?
2572 2011-06-25 22:29:57 <BlueMatt> dont need to even do that...just see if it opens w/o segfaulting
2573 2011-06-25 22:30:05 <BlueMatt> well its better than windows...
2574 2011-06-25 22:30:19 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and don't want to take my public node down to run it on that box
2575 2011-06-25 22:30:29 kish_ is now known as kish
2576 2011-06-25 22:30:40 <BlueMatt> you can see if it will open with -testnet
2577 2011-06-25 22:31:04 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: are you building the gui or just bitcoind?
2578 2011-06-25 22:31:10 <arthurb> just bitcoind
2579 2011-06-25 22:31:17 <jrmithdobbs> k, give me a min
2580 2011-06-25 22:31:17 Teslah has joined
2581 2011-06-25 22:31:30 <arthurb> but fwiw, the gui segfaults too
2582 2011-06-25 22:31:49 <arthurb> and the -testnet flag makes everything segfault too
2583 2011-06-25 22:32:02 <jrmithdobbs> ya i just don't want to install wx and xauth and shit on this box
2584 2011-06-25 22:32:02 <arthurb> ./bitcoind -daemon does not segfault
2585 2011-06-25 22:32:02 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2586 2011-06-25 22:32:13 <arthurb> at list not visibly
2587 2011-06-25 22:32:16 <arthurb> it just dies silentyl
2588 2011-06-25 22:32:28 <jrmithdobbs> (cause i don't run binaries)
2589 2011-06-25 22:32:33 <jrmithdobbs> err provided binaries
2590 2011-06-25 22:32:37 jandd has quit (Quit: leaving)
2591 2011-06-25 22:32:45 <BlueMatt> what, you dont trust me?
2592 2011-06-25 22:32:57 <pasky> hmm, are there any limits on what can be in scriptSig, or how much data?
2593 2011-06-25 22:33:17 <BlueMatt> op, nope it segfaulted here too
2594 2011-06-25 22:33:20 jandd has joined
2595 2011-06-25 22:33:23 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: you building with or without upnp?
2596 2011-06-25 22:33:28 <arthurb> with
2597 2011-06-25 22:33:31 <jrmithdobbs> bah
2598 2011-06-25 22:33:32 <arthurb> because even with the flag without
2599 2011-06-25 22:33:33 <iera> you dont run binaries but use osx?
2600 2011-06-25 22:33:34 <arthurb> it will complain
2601 2011-06-25 22:33:37 <arthurb> if you don't have it
2602 2011-06-25 22:33:40 <BlueMatt> hm...actually its been doing that for a while...god why did I never bother to check testset...
2603 2011-06-25 22:33:46 phunction has joined
2604 2011-06-25 22:33:48 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
2605 2011-06-25 22:34:00 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: to build without
2606 2011-06-25 22:34:14 <arthurb> USE_UPNP=0 is in the makefile thouhg?
2607 2011-06-25 22:34:14 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: see if it still does it for you then cause i don't feel like building minupnpc right now ;p
2608 2011-06-25 22:34:26 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: USE_UPNP:=0
2609 2011-06-25 22:34:32 <pasky> arthurb: USE_PNP= is different from USE_PNP=0
2610 2011-06-25 22:34:33 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: it works trust me
2611 2011-06-25 22:34:50 <BlueMatt> USE_UPNP=0 means compiled-in but off by default, USE_UPNP= means not compiled in
2612 2011-06-25 22:34:55 larsivi has joined
2613 2011-06-25 22:35:21 <arthurb> ooh
2614 2011-06-25 22:35:21 <arthurb> ok
2615 2011-06-25 22:35:23 <arthurb> let's see
2616 2011-06-25 22:35:27 <arthurb> ah
2617 2011-06-25 22:35:42 <arthurb> ah it's a ifdf not an if
2618 2011-06-25 22:35:47 <jrmithdobbs> arthurb: it's building without upnp right now, let me know if it still segfaults for you without upnp
2619 2011-06-25 22:35:53 lessPlastic has joined
2620 2011-06-25 22:36:11 <arthurb> i managed to build it without upnp on another box, and it did segfault
2621 2011-06-25 22:36:14 lessPlastic has left ()
2622 2011-06-25 22:36:14 <arthurb> but let me try on this box
2623 2011-06-25 22:36:18 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2624 2011-06-25 22:36:21 <arthurb> it's compiling
2625 2011-06-25 22:36:37 AStove has quit ()
2626 2011-06-25 22:36:42 <arthurb> Segfault
2627 2011-06-25 22:37:03 <arthurb> N.B., I launch ./bitcoind with no flags
2628 2011-06-25 22:37:30 <arthurb> I have only set up one config file, ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf with rpcuser and rpcpassword
2629 2011-06-25 22:37:33 <arthurb> that's all
2630 2011-06-25 22:37:36 Pathin_ has joined
2631 2011-06-25 22:38:37 <jrmithdobbs> my build on debian just now did not segfault
2632 2011-06-25 22:38:37 eao has joined
2633 2011-06-25 22:38:42 <jrmithdobbs> wait, yes it did
2634 2011-06-25 22:38:55 <arthurb> yes it doesn't happen immediately
2635 2011-06-25 22:39:14 <jrmithdobbs> ya, let me run it in gdb
2636 2011-06-25 22:39:18 <jgarzik> mrb_: bitcoinwatch was sold to tcatm months ago..
2637 2011-06-25 22:39:28 <jgarzik> mrb_: there should be a contact email on the front page
2638 2011-06-25 22:39:31 <arthurb> totally unrelated, but to make things worse, gmail is down
2639 2011-06-25 22:39:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: wait, you owned bitcoinwatch originally?
2640 2011-06-25 22:39:54 <jrmithdobbs> ya looks like something is borked in wallet class
2641 2011-06-25 22:40:05 <arthurb> yes
2642 2011-06-25 22:40:21 <arthurb> when it tries to decrypt the key in the wallet
2643 2011-06-25 22:40:25 <jrmithdobbs> looks like it's trying to get an address for a privkey it hasn't actually set yet
2644 2011-06-25 22:40:34 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: !!!
2645 2011-06-25 22:40:45 <BlueMatt> nope, its gavin's fault
2646 2011-06-25 22:41:06 <BlueMatt> wait...why was it compiling the wrong version...
2647 2011-06-25 22:41:09 <BlueMatt> hm, wait a sec
2648 2011-06-25 22:42:11 <BlueMatt> wtf, well it was segfaulting, but its not anymore...?
2649 2011-06-25 22:42:37 <jrmithdobbs> hate debugging threaded shit
2650 2011-06-25 22:42:39 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
2651 2011-06-25 22:42:46 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2652 2011-06-25 22:43:03 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes
2653 2011-06-25 22:43:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the site design is 95% unchanged from when I ran it
2654 2011-06-25 22:43:28 <BlueMatt> really, had no idea
2655 2011-06-25 22:43:55 <BlueMatt> yep, sipa...what did you break?
2656 2011-06-25 22:44:11 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya this may be related to gavin's keypool fix
2657 2011-06-25 22:44:17 <jrmithdobbs> in combination with walletclass
2658 2011-06-25 22:44:32 <BlueMatt> which keypoolfix is this?
2659 2011-06-25 22:44:40 <BlueMatt> when did gavin do a keypool fix
2660 2011-06-25 22:44:41 <jrmithdobbs> the "gen keypool before launching gui" fix
2661 2011-06-25 22:44:56 <BlueMatt> ah, wasnt that tcatm?
2662 2011-06-25 22:45:04 <jrmithdobbs> was it? my bad
2663 2011-06-25 22:45:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: what's the problem
2664 2011-06-25 22:45:12 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: current master is segfaulting
2665 2011-06-25 22:45:27 <BlueMatt> sipa: on head, rm -r ~/.bitcoin; ./bitcoin segfaults
2666 2011-06-25 22:46:17 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2667 2011-06-25 22:46:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: happened when you merged walletclass
2668 2011-06-25 22:46:22 <arthurb> BlueMatt: n.b. it keeps segfaulting even after the directory has been created, etc
2669 2011-06-25 22:46:42 <BlueMatt> sometimes...but it stopped segfaulting for me after it ran successfully once
2670 2011-06-25 22:47:07 enquirer has left ()
2671 2011-06-25 22:47:10 num1 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2672 2011-06-25 22:47:12 <BlueMatt> BlueMattBot: status Bitocin-Testset
2673 2011-06-25 22:47:12 <BlueMattBot> BlueMatt: unknown job Bitocin-Testset
2674 2011-06-25 22:47:39 <BlueMatt> BlueMattBot: status Bitcoin-Testset
2675 2011-06-25 22:47:39 <BlueMattBot> Bitcoin-Testset: last build: 30 (1 day 6 hr ago): FAILURE: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/30/
2676 2011-06-25 22:47:56 Pathin_ has joined
2677 2011-06-25 22:49:51 sabalaba has joined
2678 2011-06-25 22:50:21 <arthurb> you seem to be on it, is there an older release I can download and use :) ?
2679 2011-06-25 22:50:32 <BlueMatt> 0.3.23
2680 2011-06-25 22:50:41 <arthurb> thanks!
2681 2011-06-25 22:50:46 <BlueMatt> its tagged in git, or you can dl the binaries(+src) from sf
2682 2011-06-25 22:51:01 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2683 2011-06-25 22:51:18 Teslah has joined
2684 2011-06-25 22:52:17 <ericmock> anyone have any idea why I get a "Cannot load X.dat" when I switch back from db5.1 to db4.8 /and/ clean out all the database files so that the app creates fresh copies
2685 2011-06-25 22:52:33 <ericmock> it's like it can't read/load the files it just created
2686 2011-06-25 22:53:00 <ericmock> it's not like it can be creating the files with 5.1 and trying to read with 4.8, right?
2687 2011-06-25 22:53:11 wasabi1 has joined
2688 2011-06-25 22:53:54 DanZimm has joined
2689 2011-06-25 22:54:10 DanZimm has quit (Client Quit)
2690 2011-06-25 22:54:32 <BlueMatt> if its trying to load a wallet.dat, blk*, etc file...then yea
2691 2011-06-25 22:54:37 <BlueMatt> the databases folder is just logs
2692 2011-06-25 22:54:42 <BlueMatt> the other files are bdb files
2693 2011-06-25 22:54:50 <BlueMatt> so your wallet is forever bound to 5.1
2694 2011-06-25 22:54:53 <BlueMatt> or 5.X
2695 2011-06-25 22:55:25 dx398 has joined
2696 2011-06-25 22:55:28 TheZimm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2697 2011-06-25 22:55:39 wasabi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2698 2011-06-25 22:56:22 <ericmock> BlueMatt: I mean I clean out everything.
2699 2011-06-25 22:56:31 <ericmock> not database folder
2700 2011-06-25 22:56:31 <BlueMatt> you mean all of ~/.bitcoin
2701 2011-06-25 22:56:34 <ericmock> yes
2702 2011-06-25 22:56:34 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2703 2011-06-25 22:56:36 <BlueMatt> ie rm -rf ~/.bitcoin
2704 2011-06-25 22:56:39 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2705 2011-06-25 22:56:46 <BlueMatt> well now that makes no sense
2706 2011-06-25 22:56:52 <ericmock> well rm -rf ~/.bitcoin/.
2707 2011-06-25 22:57:02 <ericmock> yea, that's why I'm perplexed
2708 2011-06-25 22:57:18 <ericmock> I move back to 5.1, and everything is fine
2709 2011-06-25 22:57:21 <BlueMatt> then its a bitcoin message from bitcoin being stupid somewhere
2710 2011-06-25 22:57:27 Pathin_ has joined
2711 2011-06-25 22:57:44 <ericmock> well, it exits once it says it can't read databases
2712 2011-06-25 22:57:49 <ericmock> read = load
2713 2011-06-25 22:57:52 kW_ has joined
2714 2011-06-25 22:57:58 <BlueMatt> in that case, your db install is fucked, or you arent actually deleting the relevant files
2715 2011-06-25 22:58:24 <ericmock> what is the version of the databases created with 5.1 vs. 4.8
2716 2011-06-25 22:58:35 <BlueMatt> 5.1 and 4.8...?
2717 2011-06-25 22:58:39 <ericmock> db_dump shows version 3 for both
2718 2011-06-25 22:58:43 kermit has joined
2719 2011-06-25 22:59:06 <ericmock> I think there's a database format version indep. of 'suite' version
2720 2011-06-25 22:59:29 <BlueMatt> well all I know about it is 4.X wont read anything from 5.X
2721 2011-06-25 22:59:38 * ericmock is aware of that
2722 2011-06-25 22:59:41 eao has joined
2723 2011-06-25 22:59:41 <BlueMatt> and 4.X wont read logs from 4.Y
2724 2011-06-25 22:59:52 <BlueMatt> or 5.X and 5.Y
2725 2011-06-25 23:00:49 <arthurb> I've had problems with both 4.7 and 5.2.28
2726 2011-06-25 23:01:03 <BlueMatt> what kind of problems?
2727 2011-06-25 23:01:09 <arthurb> segfault
2728 2011-06-25 23:01:22 <ericmock> let's give this another go...
2729 2011-06-25 23:01:42 <BlueMatt> arthurb: afaik that is completely unrelated to ericmock's issues here
2730 2011-06-25 23:01:48 <ericmock> removed libdb_css-5.1.dylib from build...
2731 2011-06-25 23:02:00 <mrb_> jgarzik: ok. it's hard to keep track of who owns what, heh
2732 2011-06-25 23:02:09 <ericmock> added libdb_cxx-4.8.dylib to build...
2733 2011-06-25 23:02:21 <arthurb> oops, didn't see it was a different topic
2734 2011-06-25 23:02:54 * ericmock cleans the build
2735 2011-06-25 23:03:14 <Optimo> make sure you're not deleting your real bitcoin wallet :)
2736 2011-06-25 23:03:30 <ericmock> mv ~/.bitcoin ~/.bitcoin_orig
2737 2011-06-25 23:03:36 <ericmock> Optimo: you know me too well...
2738 2011-06-25 23:03:47 <Optimo> there are two kinds of people:...
2739 2011-06-25 23:03:56 <Optimo> those that backup, and those that do not
2740 2011-06-25 23:04:06 * ericmock builds...  and waits
2741 2011-06-25 23:04:16 <ericmock> TimeMachine ftw!
2742 2011-06-25 23:04:37 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2743 2011-06-25 23:04:42 <BlueMatt> and when time machine crashes...?
2744 2011-06-25 23:04:53 <ericmock> Unison ftw!
2745 2011-06-25 23:05:06 <BlueMatt> yay unison
2746 2011-06-25 23:05:15 lolwat` has joined
2747 2011-06-25 23:05:25 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2748 2011-06-25 23:06:17 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2749 2011-06-25 23:07:18 JRWR has joined
2750 2011-06-25 23:07:18 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
2751 2011-06-25 23:07:18 JRWR has joined
2752 2011-06-25 23:07:29 dvide has joined
2753 2011-06-25 23:07:40 <ericmock> runs bitcoin
2754 2011-06-25 23:07:42 <ericmock> http://snapplr.com/vnm1
2755 2011-06-25 23:07:42 Pathin_ has joined
2756 2011-06-25 23:07:50 <ericmock> Bitcoin: Error loading addr.dat
2757 2011-06-25 23:07:51 <ericmock> Error loading blkindex.dat
2758 2011-06-25 23:07:51 <ericmock> Error loading wallet.dat
2759 2011-06-25 23:08:06 <BlueMatt> are you running your crazy fork?
2760 2011-06-25 23:08:09 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2761 2011-06-25 23:08:18 <ericmock> I tried tracking this down with gdb this morning...
2762 2011-06-25 23:08:26 <ericmock> crazy fork?
2763 2011-06-25 23:08:34 <BlueMatt> the mac one, the cocoa ui
2764 2011-06-25 23:08:43 <BlueMatt> ok...not so crazy, but still
2765 2011-06-25 23:09:09 <ericmock> sure...  but there's nothing changed with X\{ui,uibase}.cpp
2766 2011-06-25 23:09:52 <BlueMatt> well, then you are calling functions/not calling functions during init that satoshi client does
2767 2011-06-25 23:10:02 <BlueMatt> check AppInit() and such in ui
2768 2011-06-25 23:10:09 <ericmock> I call AppInit(X,Y)
2769 2011-06-25 23:10:29 <BlueMatt> thats kinda messy
2770 2011-06-25 23:10:58 Nexus7 has quit ()
2771 2011-06-25 23:10:58 <ericmock> and remember, all's fine with db5.1, which must have some magic that 4.8 doesn't I guess
2772 2011-06-25 23:11:16 <BlueMatt> or...more likely...your db build is fucked up
2773 2011-06-25 23:11:31 * Optimo may dare install xcode on his macbook
2774 2011-06-25 23:11:41 <ericmock> do it...
2775 2011-06-25 23:11:49 <BlueMatt> but dont pay for it
2776 2011-06-25 23:11:55 <ericmock> $5?
2777 2011-06-25 23:11:59 <BlueMatt> too much
2778 2011-06-25 23:12:16 <ericmock> please don't tell me there's a problem with macport's db4.8...
2779 2011-06-25 23:12:21 <Optimo> oh it's not free lol
2780 2011-06-25 23:12:33 <ericmock> well, maybe, please do since it would help solve this
2781 2011-06-25 23:12:36 <Optimo> well I am not planning to open macappstore
2782 2011-06-25 23:12:39 <BlueMatt> what kind of backward company doesnt work hard to try to get developers to work hard for them, instead of making them pay just to get their dev environment
2783 2011-06-25 23:12:40 <Optimo> haha
2784 2011-06-25 23:13:18 <BlueMatt> even m$ has quite a few free dev tools
2785 2011-06-25 23:13:19 <ericmock> a public company that understands supply and demand
2786 2011-06-25 23:13:23 <BlueMatt> in fact, most of theirs are
2787 2011-06-25 23:13:34 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2788 2011-06-25 23:13:53 <BlueMatt> a public company which understands that the success of an os is entirely dependent on their developer community would disagree
2789 2011-06-25 23:14:18 <ericmock> free dev tools = crapps
2790 2011-06-25 23:14:27 Tim-7967 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2791 2011-06-25 23:14:40 <BlueMatt> 5 isnt a big enough barrier to entry to make that a valid argument
2792 2011-06-25 23:14:46 <Optimo> .net studio express is pretty nice
2793 2011-06-25 23:14:53 <BlueMatt> oh gawd
2794 2011-06-25 23:14:55 <upb> yep, plus its fast :)
2795 2011-06-25 23:14:57 <Optimo> lol
2796 2011-06-25 23:15:05 <Optimo> for free, I mean
2797 2011-06-25 23:15:20 <BlueMatt> gnu stuff is pretty nice
2798 2011-06-25 23:15:24 <BlueMatt> and free
2799 2011-06-25 23:15:26 <upb> the ui reacts faster than thoe java based things
2800 2011-06-25 23:15:29 <BlueMatt> and much better than .net crap
2801 2011-06-25 23:15:29 <upb> like intellij idea
2802 2011-06-25 23:15:32 <Optimo> hey I use gcc anyway
2803 2011-06-25 23:15:36 <Optimo> I hate xcode
2804 2011-06-25 23:15:54 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2805 2011-06-25 23:16:00 <ericmock> xcode is nice once you get used to it...
2806 2011-06-25 23:16:07 <ericmock> so is interface builder
2807 2011-06-25 23:16:39 <ericmock> and about as easy to understand as configure and make files
2808 2011-06-25 23:16:48 <ersi> Enough circle jearking
2809 2011-06-25 23:17:02 <ericmock> ersi: then get out of the middle
2810 2011-06-25 23:17:02 <Optimo> ersi is nice once you get used to it..
2811 2011-06-25 23:17:05 Pathin_ has joined
2812 2011-06-25 23:17:22 <Optimo> in other news. we need moar merchants
2813 2011-06-25 23:17:33 <Optimo> we need devs connecting with merchants
2814 2011-06-25 23:18:18 <freakazoid> Should have a directory of bitcoin devs as well as merchants
2815 2011-06-25 23:18:29 <freakazoid> maybe with a way to post ratings
2816 2011-06-25 23:18:33 <BlueMatt> no, we need userbase to spam merchants until they realize bitcoin can be a large opportunity for them
2817 2011-06-25 23:18:39 <BlueMatt> developers reaching out wont do much
2818 2011-06-25 23:18:44 <ericmock> merchants need a stable currency
2819 2011-06-25 23:19:04 <BlueMatt> no, merchants can sell on mtgox immediately and charge based on current exchange rate
2820 2011-06-25 23:19:07 <BlueMatt> fairly easily
2821 2011-06-25 23:19:11 <BlueMatt> via mtgox api
2822 2011-06-25 23:19:28 <ericmock> that's not going to happen for years
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2825 2011-06-25 23:20:07 <BlueMatt> you can do it now
2826 2011-06-25 23:20:09 <ericmock> merchants != web store devs
2827 2011-06-25 23:20:19 <ericmock>  /can/ is the key there
2828 2011-06-25 23:20:23 <BlueMatt> yep, well we need people to program that
2829 2011-06-25 23:21:05 <ericmock> and someone to do an /extreme/ sales pitch to merchants to make them risk there business
2830 2011-06-25 23:21:28 <BlueMatt> aside from potential legal issues, what risk is there?
2831 2011-06-25 23:21:32 * ericmock is off to help his daughter get out of the deep hole (literally) she dug in Minecraft
2832 2011-06-25 23:21:41 <BlueMatt> lol
2833 2011-06-25 23:21:48 <ericmock> BlueMatt: have you ever owned a business?
2834 2011-06-25 23:21:57 <ericmock> like a small business that barely breaks even?
2835 2011-06-25 23:22:05 <BlueMatt> again, what risk?
2836 2011-06-25 23:22:25 <BlueMatt> enlighten me
2837 2011-06-25 23:22:46 <ericmock> what am I supposed to do?  change the price of my shoes as the bitcoin market bounces around?
2838 2011-06-25 23:22:58 <BlueMatt> no, the webstore does that automatically
2839 2011-06-25 23:23:21 <BlueMatt> in fact, afaik, the stuff that has been programmed into existing merchant frontends do that already
2840 2011-06-25 23:23:30 <ericmock> pissing off customers...  who don't really know what they're paying unless they've got mtgoxlive open in another window
2841 2011-06-25 23:23:31 eao has joined
2842 2011-06-25 23:23:35 <BlueMatt> though not immediate selling on mtgox afaik
2843 2011-06-25 23:23:52 <BlueMatt> its not hard to put 1 BTC (16 USD based on current rate)
2844 2011-06-25 23:23:53 <BlueMatt> on the page
2845 2011-06-25 23:24:08 <BlueMatt> or we
2846 2011-06-25 23:24:59 <arthurb> it's catch-22 because you don't get price stability until the currency is widely used
2847 2011-06-25 23:25:00 <ericmock> and with the added hassle of moving the money around, I'll stick with paying the credit card fees ;-)
2848 2011-06-25 23:25:08 <ericmock> arthurb: exactly
2849 2011-06-25 23:25:19 <ericmock> and someone needs to figure out how to break out of that.
2850 2011-06-25 23:25:29 <BlueMatt> arthurb: if merchants dont use good software, eyes
2851 2011-06-25 23:25:32 * ericmock is being harassed into playing Minecraft, bbl
2852 2011-06-25 23:25:32 <BlueMatt> otherwise...not at all
2853 2011-06-25 23:25:39 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2854 2011-06-25 23:25:56 <BlueMatt> merchants sell for btc converted to usd on receive and at a price based on usd
2855 2011-06-25 23:26:04 <BlueMatt> so they always get x usd, and get to sell for btc
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2860 2011-06-25 23:30:43 <arthurb> I
2861 2011-06-25 23:30:47 mrtnt1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2862 2011-06-25 23:30:53 <arthurb> I'm not sure how that would affect price stability
2863 2011-06-25 23:31:09 <BlueMatt> well for price stability, what is needed is just a shitton of liquidity
2864 2011-06-25 23:31:41 <BlueMatt> and above-described merchants means, at a minimum, 1 sell per tx
2865 2011-06-25 23:31:45 <BlueMatt> which gives liquidity
2866 2011-06-25 23:32:01 <arthurb> what do you mean by liquidity?
2867 2011-06-25 23:32:13 <BlueMatt> more trades, bigger book
2868 2011-06-25 23:32:28 <arthurb> on currency exchanges?
2869 2011-06-25 23:32:34 <BlueMatt> yea
2870 2011-06-25 23:32:37 <arthurb> hum
2871 2011-06-25 23:32:39 <BlueMatt> ie liquidity
2872 2011-06-25 23:32:43 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity.
2873 2011-06-25 23:33:07 <arthurb> I know what it is, but different people use the term in different fashion
2874 2011-06-25 23:33:22 <BlueMatt> never heard it used in any other way
2875 2011-06-25 23:33:28 <BlueMatt> as that is the definition
2876 2011-06-25 23:33:53 <arthurb> people violate the dictionary all the time
2877 2011-06-25 23:33:56 <arthurb> anywho
2878 2011-06-25 23:34:19 <BlueMatt> ok, well in any case, I had never heard it used any other way
2879 2011-06-25 23:34:32 <BlueMatt> unrelated
2880 2011-06-25 23:35:00 <arthurb> I see how it would tighten speads
2881 2011-06-25 23:35:13 <arthurb> but I am not sure how it would reduce volatility
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2883 2011-06-25 23:35:33 <BlueMatt> a bigger book means someone who buys a ton moves the market less
2884 2011-06-25 23:35:40 <BlueMatt> hence, smaller movements
2885 2011-06-25 23:35:46 <BlueMatt> long-term
2886 2011-06-25 23:36:00 <arthurb> well, the market impact is short term generally
2887 2011-06-25 23:36:03 <BlueMatt> the more people in the market, the less it will move
2888 2011-06-25 23:36:08 <arthurb> you typically have two impact after a large order
2889 2011-06-25 23:36:20 <BlueMatt> short term movements dont really effect businesses, as its back to where it was in an hour
2890 2011-06-25 23:36:21 <arthurb> a temporary impact, as you rill down the order book
2891 2011-06-25 23:36:30 <arthurb> and a permanent impact
2892 2011-06-25 23:36:32 <ericmock> how many btc in market now?
2893 2011-06-25 23:36:46 <arthurb> I see how liquidity alleviates the temporary impact
2894 2011-06-25 23:36:50 <arthurb> but not the permanent impact
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2896 2011-06-25 23:36:56 <arthurb> the temporary impact is a function of liquidity
2897 2011-06-25 23:37:28 <arthurb> the permanent impact is where the market settles after taking into account the news that someone has sold
2898 2011-06-25 23:37:32 <BlueMatt> the point of liquidity isnt that there will be no impact, but liquidity means a buy of any given amount will move the market less
2899 2011-06-25 23:37:39 <arthurb> yes
2900 2011-06-25 23:37:49 <BlueMatt> so what are we arguing about?
2901 2011-06-25 23:38:02 <arthurb> moving the market less != reducing volatility
2902 2011-06-25 23:38:07 <BlueMatt> yes it is
2903 2011-06-25 23:38:16 <BlueMatt> long-term
2904 2011-06-25 23:38:20 <arthurb> no
2905 2011-06-25 23:38:25 <arthurb> long-term
2906 2011-06-25 23:38:25 <BlueMatt> short term fluctuations, it absolutely does
2907 2011-06-25 23:38:31 <BlueMatt> ie fluctuations in a day, not a minute
2908 2011-06-25 23:38:36 <BlueMatt> as you pointed out
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2910 2011-06-25 23:38:39 <arthurb> liquidity reduces short term fluctuations
2911 2011-06-25 23:38:44 <arthurb> but not long term fluctuations
2912 2011-06-25 23:39:23 <arthurb> long term volatility reflects our collective ignorance about the future of bitcoin
2913 2011-06-25 23:39:26 <ericmock> at this point I'm not seeing how you would convince even a quite 'technology savvy' merchant
2914 2011-06-25 23:39:27 <BlueMatt> in this case, it means long-term fluctuations wont be strictly a function of a ton of speculators
2915 2011-06-25 23:39:29 <arthurb> it's not a microstruture effect
2916 2011-06-25 23:39:31 <ericmock> what would be the argument?
2917 2011-06-25 23:39:33 <BlueMatt> instead of actual value
2918 2011-06-25 23:40:00 <ericmock> merchants don't really care about long-term volitility...
2919 2011-06-25 23:40:16 <BlueMatt> yes they do
2920 2011-06-25 23:40:24 <BlueMatt> what merchant cares about fluctuations in one day?
2921 2011-06-25 23:40:32 <BlueMatt> in fact, by definition, they do
2922 2011-06-25 23:40:44 <ericmock> long-term...
2923 2011-06-25 23:40:45 <BlueMatt> as long-term is defined as having had the time to change their production
2924 2011-06-25 23:41:43 <BlueMatt> ericmock: well it depends on the merchant, but especially for digital goods it means you can sell very easily to every currency in the world, without having to bother accepting the currency of *stan and random tiny countries and who knows what
2925 2011-06-25 23:41:51 <ericmock> day-to-day, I'd care....  month-to-month, maybe depending on the swings...  year-to-year, probably care a little less than month-to-month
2926 2011-06-25 23:41:59 <arthurb> the merchant cares about the profit maximizing price... if there is volatility, this price changes a lot
2927 2011-06-25 23:42:11 <BlueMatt> why would you care about day-to-day?
2928 2011-06-25 23:42:27 <ericmock> day-to-day swings in the value?
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2931 2011-06-25 23:42:44 <BlueMatt> yes, but the merchant actually only cares about the price at the time they sell into usd
2932 2011-06-25 23:42:45 <ericmock> I guess if was like swings of less than $1 I might not care too much
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2934 2011-06-25 23:43:03 <BlueMatt> that means either a. you sell at the time you get the money, and charge based on current price
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2937 2011-06-25 23:43:31 <BlueMatt> or b. you sell once per time period and only care about fluctuations between time periods
2938 2011-06-25 23:43:37 <ericmock> and day-to-day swings is bad for a.
2939 2011-06-25 23:43:42 <BlueMatt> and that is probably once per week or more
2940 2011-06-25 23:43:46 <BlueMatt> not at all
2941 2011-06-25 23:43:56 <BlueMatt> that just means the price changes quite a bit to the consumer
2942 2011-06-25 23:44:03 <BlueMatt> still the same usd value to the merchant
2943 2011-06-25 23:44:13 <ericmock> so you're customers are going to be trying to time market fluctuations to buy their stuff?
2944 2011-06-25 23:44:20 <BlueMatt> (and if you are clear with the consumer that they are paying usd price converted based on current rate, then they get it)
2945 2011-06-25 23:44:30 <ericmock> that's not going to go over well
2946 2011-06-25 23:44:44 <BlueMatt> then the consumer can buy with usd?
2947 2011-06-25 23:44:57 <ericmock> 'then they get it' is a huge assumption
2948 2011-06-25 23:45:07 <BlueMatt> if they are in the bitcoin community, they get it
2949 2011-06-25 23:45:13 <BlueMatt> my mother, probably not
2950 2011-06-25 23:45:19 <BlueMatt> but shes not gonna buy with btc anyway
2951 2011-06-25 23:45:53 <BlueMatt> no merchant is gonna switch to btc, but adding it to usd can mean an impact on sales depending on size
2952 2011-06-25 23:45:57 <ericmock> but in the end what you're going to do is charge a premium for taking bitcoin (i.e. err in your favor on the exchange rate)
2953 2011-06-25 23:46:06 <BlueMatt> if you are trying to convince a merchant, point to the alpaca socks guys
2954 2011-06-25 23:46:09 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2955 2011-06-25 23:46:29 <BlueMatt> of course, so you also get an extra 2% or we on each btc buyer
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2957 2011-06-25 23:47:30 <ericmock> pizzabit guy is at $13/btc
2958 2011-06-25 23:47:53 <BlueMatt> I understand a merchant's unwillingness to try something as new as bitcoin, but I have yet to hear a really good argument (except for legal concerns) as to why one should not accept bitcoin
2959 2011-06-25 23:48:06 <BlueMatt> though to be fair, legal concerns are a big problem for most merchants
2960 2011-06-25 23:48:10 <BlueMatt> ie huge blocker
2961 2011-06-25 23:48:12 <arthurb> simply speaking
2962 2011-06-25 23:48:18 <ericmock> the problem is the burden is on the bitcoin community
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2964 2011-06-25 23:48:23 <arthurb> as long as a seller is going to be selling in two currencies
2965 2011-06-25 23:48:41 <arthurb> the prices must reflect the market
2966 2011-06-25 23:48:45 vokoda has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2967 2011-06-25 23:48:48 <ericmock> there needs to be a /good/ reason for the 'headache' to change
2968 2011-06-25 23:48:48 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2969 2011-06-25 23:48:55 <arthurb> otherwise, he'll just get adversly slected all the time
2970 2011-06-25 23:48:59 <ericmock> not a good argument not to
2971 2011-06-25 23:49:09 <BlueMatt> ericmock: absolutely, and the headache needs to be a very small change to their software and it works
2972 2011-06-25 23:49:12 <arthurb> so either
2973 2011-06-25 23:49:43 <BlueMatt> though, realistically, what we need, is simply a good pp that accepts bitcoin + usd via ccs and such that merchants can easily use
2974 2011-06-25 23:49:44 <ericmock> BlueMatt: it's more than just software, it's dealing with new players
2975 2011-06-25 23:49:50 <arthurb> a) the seller only takes bitcoins,  b) the seller takes usd, and bitcoin calculated on the usd rate, c) the seller takes bitcoins and usd calculated on the bitcoin rate
2976 2011-06-25 23:49:54 <BlueMatt> because, lets face it, most merchants just use a pp anyway
2977 2011-06-25 23:50:03 <BlueMatt> or atleast offer pp along side ccs
2978 2011-06-25 23:50:18 <BlueMatt> pp here being payment processor not paypal
2979 2011-06-25 23:50:35 <ericmock> ;;bc,stats
2980 2011-06-25 23:50:55 <ericmock> is that gonna give me bitcoins mined to date?
2981 2011-06-25 23:50:59 <pasky> arthurb: i think (b) vs (c) directly depends on whether the merchant's costs (goods, work, ...) is in usd (b) or btc (c)
2982 2011-06-25 23:51:02 <ericmock> well, maybe nothing at all
2983 2011-06-25 23:51:07 <gribble> Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
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2985 2011-06-25 23:52:11 <pasky> it's much more realistic for now to just handle everything including post prices in usd, just during payment offer "pay in btc instead" in which case you use current rate and immediately sell the btc for that rate
2986 2011-06-25 23:52:16 <ericmock> honestly, letting the mtgox trades stand would have been better for the market
2987 2011-06-25 23:52:36 <BlueMatt> how so?
2988 2011-06-25 23:52:45 <BitcoinForNewegg> yes much better
2989 2011-06-25 23:52:48 <ericmock> liquidity ^
2990 2011-06-25 23:52:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> I lost 600 bitcoins
2991 2011-06-25 23:53:06 <BitcoinForNewegg> i sold 1200 and only withdrew 600 :(
2992 2011-06-25 23:53:07 <ericmock> since someone (apparently) is sitting on 500k btc
2993 2011-06-25 23:53:22 <BlueMatt> that doesnt mean liquidity, that means people wont trust mtgox and will stop selling except via otc
2994 2011-06-25 23:53:29 <BlueMatt> which just means a huge dump in liquidity
2995 2011-06-25 23:53:32 <BlueMatt> already that is happening
2996 2011-06-25 23:53:35 <BlueMatt> which is really bad
2997 2011-06-25 23:53:47 <ericmock> no, if those 500k bitcoins are in more people's hands they'll flow more readily
2998 2011-06-25 23:53:48 <BlueMatt> but if he had let the trades stand it would have been worse
2999 2011-06-25 23:54:29 <BlueMatt> I would tend to disagree, as they were eaten up by less people then you might think
3000 2011-06-25 23:54:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> i got 1200 of em :)
3001 2011-06-25 23:54:42 <ericmock> letting the trades stand would have been /really/ bad for one person (apparently) and somewhat bad for a few others
3002 2011-06-25 23:54:45 <BlueMatt> most people got them in chunks of thousands
3003 2011-06-25 23:54:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> deleted QQ
3004 2011-06-25 23:55:00 <BlueMatt> but it would have been worse for trust of mtgox
3005 2011-06-25 23:55:06 <ericmock> less people than I might think is more than 1
3006 2011-06-25 23:55:10 <BlueMatt> and he probably would have been sued
3007 2011-06-25 23:55:24 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3008 2011-06-25 23:55:36 <BlueMatt> in any case, I need to stop being distracted, or encrypted wallets will never happen
3009 2011-06-25 23:56:35 Pathin_ has joined
3010 2011-06-25 23:56:56 <ericmock> wxbitcoin gives me same crap:  http://snapplr.com/cvmh
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