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   2 2011-06-26 00:01:32 <dehuman> i dont think those 500k bitcoins belonged to a single person
   3 2011-06-26 00:01:57 <dehuman> it looks more like some tomfoolery, perhaps/probably sqli
   4 2011-06-26 00:02:07 <upb> looks like we will never know
   5 2011-06-26 00:02:19 <upb> unless someone owns gox again and dumps all their files :P
   6 2011-06-26 00:02:42 <dehuman> not to mention old accounts had incorrect balances after they trolled back the trades
   7 2011-06-26 00:02:56 <upb> hell even my account had incorrect balances in the log
   8 2011-06-26 00:03:09 <dehuman> yah thats not just some information exposure problem
   9 2011-06-26 00:03:09 <upb> for example when i tranferred btc to someone it was counted as + :D
  10 2011-06-26 00:03:25 <upb> when i sold $ for btc some records had it as +$
  11 2011-06-26 00:03:27 <dehuman> thats not 'oh auditor had read only database error'
  12 2011-06-26 00:03:30 <upb> some had -$
  13 2011-06-26 00:03:48 <dehuman> shenanigans
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  15 2011-06-26 00:04:19 <dehuman> never seen a mtgox transaction more than the total bitcoins sold
  16 2011-06-26 00:04:38 <dehuman> if indeed they had 1 guy with 500k bitcoins, then mtgox wuold hold 500k + everyone elses
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  18 2011-06-26 00:05:00 <dehuman> and the most they've moved is under 500k yah?
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  20 2011-06-26 00:05:17 <dehuman> i think imaginary coins got sold
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  28 2011-06-26 00:07:23 <upb> yeah most probably
  29 2011-06-26 00:07:57 <upb> kind of pointless to debate tho since even if it was, he wont admit it :)
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  34 2011-06-26 00:13:37 * diki is my alter ego
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  37 2011-06-26 00:17:37 <wolever> I've noticed that, when I'm using the API to send btc (using 'sendtoaddress()') it's charging a transaction fee of 0.0005, but 'getinfo()' shows that 'paytxfee' is set to 0.0. What's up with that?
  38 2011-06-26 00:17:49 <omes> upb: yo ;)
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  40 2011-06-26 00:20:08 <sipa> wolever: 'paytxfee' is how much voluntarily fee per KB you want to pay
  41 2011-06-26 00:20:41 <sipa> there are other rules in the system which require a minimum fee when a tx looks too spammy, to prevent your transaction from being dropped by the network
  42 2011-06-26 00:21:09 <wolever> sipa: ah, alright
  43 2011-06-26 00:21:46 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: got it, error i made when rebasing walletclass against tcatm's keypoolfix
  44 2011-06-26 00:21:50 <wolever> sipa: are those documented anywhere? Or should I RTFS?
  45 2011-06-26 00:22:05 <sipa> wolever: there's a wiki page about transaction fee rules
  46 2011-06-26 00:22:11 <wolever> sipa: ok, thanks
  47 2011-06-26 00:22:24 <upb> omes: wtf, youre alive :)
  48 2011-06-26 00:22:50 <omes> upb: ya. i was sent to the mines to extract coins. :P
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 100 2011-06-26 01:20:50 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: sweet
 101 2011-06-26 01:21:04 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: already merged to master?
 102 2011-06-26 01:21:25 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: would have been a CIA bot notification if it had been
 103 2011-06-26 01:21:27 <BlueMatt> so...no
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 107 2011-06-26 01:24:20 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: oh, actually https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/347\
 108 2011-06-26 01:24:26 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/347 *
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 130 2011-06-26 01:44:40 <pasky> in http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/74a5bbccbcca19839cfa162af8e60454910e6bf1aee3d3cbae4dd161ea42a3f8 (eligius coinbase transaction), how was the first out block produced? ("scriptPubKey":"040c282fae56455b90bc05f0e0a36ea70b402c8a696812a42b8b6628bca854bf01ec8a7a20e489e9292c82981e278379592c94067d4d043e3ac8c1bbabe8a3cec3 OP_CHECKSIG")
 131 2011-06-26 01:44:51 <pasky> can stock bitcoind ever produce this?
 132 2011-06-26 01:45:02 <bgupta> ANyone know of any trading clients? (And is this the right channel to look for them)
 133 2011-06-26 01:45:02 <tcatm> it's hardcoded
 134 2011-06-26 01:45:39 <pasky> tcatm: in eligius or bitcoind? would bitcoind be able to ever claim this?
 135 2011-06-26 01:46:13 <tcatm> oh wait, I misread that
 136 2011-06-26 01:46:47 <BlueMatt> bitcoin used to do that
 137 2011-06-26 01:46:51 <BlueMatt> now it does hash160 and such
 138 2011-06-26 01:46:53 <BlueMatt> iirc
 139 2011-06-26 01:47:05 <BlueMatt> though luke had to modify bitcoin to create those now
 140 2011-06-26 01:47:13 <BlueMatt> as it no longer does by default
 141 2011-06-26 01:47:19 <BlueMatt> tcatm: correct?
 142 2011-06-26 01:47:28 <tcatm> yep, the first out is a IP transaction
 143 2011-06-26 01:47:53 <pasky> oh! right
 144 2011-06-26 01:48:23 <tcatm> i.e. directly send to pubkey
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 156 2011-06-26 02:02:09 <pakaran> am I the only one who sees the testnet block explorer as showing a very old block number?
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 159 2011-06-26 02:05:02 <pakaran> BlueMatt, so those are alternate roots, like testnet?
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 193 2011-06-26 02:35:10 cam1235 has joined
 194 2011-06-26 02:35:30 <cam1235> Can someone please help me? :D
 195 2011-06-26 02:35:48 <cam1235> anyone with knowledge of bitcoind
 196 2011-06-26 02:36:34 <unclemantis> any iphone apps yet? either itunes official or hacked?
 197 2011-06-26 02:37:13 <unclemantis> cam1235 check out the bitcoin wiki
 198 2011-06-26 02:37:19 <unclemantis> seriously good eats in there
 199 2011-06-26 02:39:06 B0g4r7_ has joined
 200 2011-06-26 02:39:17 <cam1235> Tried...i installed it via ruby. Im using shared hosting, aka no ssh.
 201 2011-06-26 02:39:47 <BlueMatt> cam1235: ask a question dont ask to ask
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 206 2011-06-26 02:41:43 <cam1235> Still, can someone please help me out? o.o
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 208 2011-06-26 02:43:44 <unclemantis> is he gone?
 209 2011-06-26 02:44:14 <unclemantis> did cam1235 even try to pick up the fork and feed himself before he asked for help? Seriously?
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 229 2011-06-26 03:01:35 <xtalmath> I have a strange non bitcoin related question, but really have no clue where else to ask: suppose I am a normal user on a normal ISP (kind of the case), suppose I am getting DDoSed, enough to chocke my network card, but much lower than chocking the ISP higher up in the routing chain. Will this data flowing to my computer be counted as download volume?
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 236 2011-06-26 03:05:32 <xtalmath> or only if I "requested" data? how could an ISP determine this? if there is some metadata from which they assume I chose to download, then one could write software that pretends someone else is sending the data. I believe however that they do not analyse the stream to determine if it was wanted or received data, so DDoS would count as download costly
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 240 2011-06-26 03:06:57 <upb> sure its counted
 241 2011-06-26 03:07:09 <gmaxwell> The former, and because they can't tell and even if they could it wouldn't be in their interest to do so
 242 2011-06-26 03:07:42 <xtalmath> suppose the fed tries the following attack: "DDoS" anyone who is visible on network, or send them enough data so that the user starts noticing on his ISP account page that his downloaded volumes are getting annoyingly high.
 243 2011-06-26 03:07:45 <upb> they would need to effectively do conntrack on all their customers otherwise :D
 244 2011-06-26 03:07:48 <upb> madness
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 246 2011-06-26 03:08:40 <gmaxwell> Depending how how they count you could even be billed for more than the capacity of your link (though that would be easy to get out of)
 247 2011-06-26 03:08:41 <xtalmath> ISPs if customers complain ISPs would get annoyed and complain back
 248 2011-06-26 03:09:21 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 249 2011-06-26 03:10:11 <xtalmath> also socially, a miner or bitcoin enthousiast may be sharing the internet connection with the rest of his family,... they wouldnt like it when they cant check their mails or surf comfortably
 250 2011-06-26 03:10:18 Pathin_ has joined
 251 2011-06-26 03:11:36 <xtalmath> then again, I assume ISPs have DDoS filters in place to shut down the connection (i.e. lots of messages for that IP) => trigger happy ddos filter shuts of your connection.
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 254 2011-06-26 03:13:32 <xtalmath> you would want to be able to tell your ISP, to ignore incoming connections that you dont approve of, i.e. their could be a protocol with which your computer could communicate with the ISP that you only want traffic from IP you allow (those you see on bitcoin network, DNS servers, the IPs you got from your DNS server,...)
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 256 2011-06-26 03:15:29 <upb> it really doesnt help the isp to 'shut down' a connection
 257 2011-06-26 03:15:33 <upb> they'd have to nullroute it
 258 2011-06-26 03:15:46 <xtalmath> no but it spares them angry customers
 259 2011-06-26 03:15:52 <upb> i seriously doublt they'd do that for a residential customers /32 or whatever
 260 2011-06-26 03:15:58 <xtalmath> hmm
 261 2011-06-26 03:16:33 <xtalmath> then again I dont know that much of internet protocol.
 262 2011-06-26 03:17:42 <xtalmath> perhaps normal data send transactions (not ping etc) need to be accepted by the receiving end?
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 264 2011-06-26 03:18:03 <xtalmath> i mean, perhaps this is already in place?
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 268 2011-06-26 03:20:04 <upb> if the dos is just to fill your pipe up with udp they dont have to be accepted
 269 2011-06-26 03:20:05 <xtalmath> like perhaps whenever we hear of DDoSed sites, its typically computers requesting a web page, and then its hard to discern if its a user or an attacker. while a computer that requests information could in theory know if it was requested.
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 271 2011-06-26 03:20:57 <xtalmath> upb: so udp dont have to be accepted but TCP for example does?
 272 2011-06-26 03:21:02 <upb> yep
 273 2011-06-26 03:21:27 <xtalmath> so in theory you could ask your ISP to only allow TCP on your link?
 274 2011-06-26 03:21:37 <upb> if theyre trying to keep your webserver busy with half open or accepted connections
 275 2011-06-26 03:21:38 <jrmithdobbs> you'd still pay for that ddos bandwidth though
 276 2011-06-26 03:21:42 <jrmithdobbs> just fyi
 277 2011-06-26 03:21:57 <upb> heh they wont do anything like that xtalmath :)
 278 2011-06-26 03:22:10 <jrmithdobbs> and ya, if you do that there's other effective methods anyways
 279 2011-06-26 03:22:13 <upb> the best they would do is nullroute your ip at their upstreams
 280 2011-06-26 03:22:14 <jrmithdobbs> upb: actually, they will.
 281 2011-06-26 03:22:21 <jrmithdobbs> upb: not true any more
 282 2011-06-26 03:22:26 <upb> hmm
 283 2011-06-26 03:22:31 <xtalmath> most bitcoin enthousiasts are either liars or BTC poor, im not sure how many are willing to sacrifice their bandwith for bitcoin survival
 284 2011-06-26 03:22:44 <upb> for a home user ?:P
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 286 2011-06-26 03:23:29 <jrmithdobbs> upb: home user no, but a colo/hosting facilities have some awesome capabilities these days
 287 2011-06-26 03:23:45 <upb> sure but were talking about home dsl/cable here
 288 2011-06-26 03:23:48 <jrmithdobbs> upb: like traffic pattern detection with direct hooks into their upstream to add selective null routes
 289 2011-06-26 03:23:51 <jrmithdobbs> oic
 290 2011-06-26 03:24:03 <jrmithdobbs> missed that
 291 2011-06-26 03:24:15 <upb> well thats what i assumed from xtalmath's question anyway :)
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 293 2011-06-26 03:25:06 <xtalmath> well both home users and stronger connections are interesting questions, how big or small would the network be if they could seriously discourage home users?
 294 2011-06-26 03:25:36 <xtalmath> also note how running bitcoin is then no longer a personal stance but family wise or appartment wise etc, since your neighbours could start complaining
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 296 2011-06-26 03:26:13 <xtalmath> the few dedicated home users and the dedicated strong connections, would easily be identified in cooperation with the ISPs
 297 2011-06-26 03:26:26 <jrmithdobbs> um
 298 2011-06-26 03:26:31 <xtalmath> hmm I guess TOR would solve the problem then
 299 2011-06-26 03:26:44 <jrmithdobbs> what was the original frame of your question (and the question itself)
 300 2011-06-26 03:26:51 <jrmithdobbs> because i don't think you're talking about what i thought you were at all
 301 2011-06-26 03:26:54 <dehuman> there are a couple of practical things to mitigate ddos depending upon the nature
 302 2011-06-26 03:27:01 <xtalmath> ah, just exploring the validity of an attack
 303 2011-06-26 03:27:03 <dehuman> there are services which proxy, you just point your dns at them
 304 2011-06-26 03:27:26 pogden has joined
 305 2011-06-26 03:27:36 <dehuman> if attacker is focusing on a single ip its easy enough to change dns so users and either a backup server on another ip or migrate to new ip temporarily
 306 2011-06-26 03:27:55 aristidesfl has joined
 307 2011-06-26 03:28:02 blzpgn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 308 2011-06-26 03:28:11 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: depends on scale and nature of attack
 309 2011-06-26 03:28:14 <dehuman> also you can throttle connections too
 310 2011-06-26 03:28:20 <dehuman> depending on which lever ddos occurs
 311 2011-06-26 03:28:20 <upb> 26 06:00 < xtalmath> I have a strange non bitcoin related question, but really have no clue where else to ask: suppose I am a normal user on a normal ISP (kind of the
 312 2011-06-26 03:28:23 <upb>                      case), suppose I am getting DDoSed, enough to chocke my network card, but much lower than chocking the ISP higher up in the routing chain. Will this
 313 2011-06-26 03:28:26 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: that's actually almost always ineffective against competent attackers
 314 2011-06-26 03:28:26 <upb>                      data flowing to my computer be counted as download volume?
 315 2011-06-26 03:28:30 <upb> this was the original q :P
 316 2011-06-26 03:28:31 <dehuman> i think there are apache mods to mitigate ddos arent they
 317 2011-06-26 03:28:37 <dehuman> jrmithdobbs: which?
 318 2011-06-26 03:28:40 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: both
 319 2011-06-26 03:28:51 jivvz has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
 320 2011-06-26 03:29:14 <xtalmath> upb: thanks , was trying to rephrase, but I like the ascii art above :D
 321 2011-06-26 03:29:19 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: they don't even really have to be competent, it's a matter of the size of their dronenet
 322 2011-06-26 03:29:23 <upb> haha
 323 2011-06-26 03:29:34 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 324 2011-06-26 03:29:38 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: 99% of ddoses are not very sophisticated
 325 2011-06-26 03:30:01 <dehuman> jrmithdobbs: but a proper dns based ddos mitigation service where it utilizes a large number of proxies seems effective enough
 326 2011-06-26 03:30:02 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, LOIC
 327 2011-06-26 03:30:07 <upb> well my friend is a cto at an isp and what they do in case of a ddos is they nullroute the ip and make the customer pay for the traffic
 328 2011-06-26 03:30:08 Pathin_ has joined
 329 2011-06-26 03:30:19 <upb> and if they dont want to pay when the ddos continues, they terminate him
 330 2011-06-26 03:30:24 <phantomcircuit> dehuman, proper ddos mitigation is via anycast but anyways...
 331 2011-06-26 03:30:26 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: the only req is that they fill your upstream. so if they're able to fill *your* upstream's upstream, which is commonly not as hard as you'd think, it doesn't matter what you do
 332 2011-06-26 03:30:55 enquirer has joined
 333 2011-06-26 03:31:06 <dehuman> jrsmithdob: but they have to fill each point, if you have 100 ways in, and no one ever sees tha tway in, you have to fill up 100 different pipes
 334 2011-06-26 03:31:18 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: the only thing i've actually seen work *well* in the wild are traffic analysis + null route inserts far enough upstream (at level3/cogent/xo/etc) to prevent the attacker from being able to fill the pipe
 335 2011-06-26 03:31:28 <dehuman> and they can proxy your content
 336 2011-06-26 03:31:42 <dehuman> anyway there are ddos mitigation services and they can handle pretty sophisticated attacks
 337 2011-06-26 03:31:49 <xtalmath> so how workable would this attack be? generate enough traffic to bitcoin running households to piss them off by using up their financially payed for bandwith, both volume and speed as this happens? how resistant will bitcoin fan be against his family members complaining?
 338 2011-06-26 03:31:51 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: you're missing the obvious flaw here
 339 2011-06-26 03:31:53 <dehuman> they obviously arent free and i'm no expert in ddos mitigation
 340 2011-06-26 03:32:00 <enquirer> bitcoin.exe is needlessly thrashing the disk - reads 32GB, writes 19 GB over 24 hours
 341 2011-06-26 03:32:07 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: they may have multiple endpoints to come in through, but it's still hitting your backend somewhere
 342 2011-06-26 03:32:18 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: they just have to fill that backend pipe, not the fronted of all the proxy endpoints
 343 2011-06-26 03:32:23 <dehuman> jrmithdobbs: not if its cached on the proxy
 344 2011-06-26 03:32:33 <jrmithdobbs> you can't cache the bitcoin protocol, for instance
 345 2011-06-26 03:32:38 <jrmithdobbs> which is what we're talking about
 346 2011-06-26 03:32:41 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yup, set the dns records to an anycast for the ddos service, which samples traffic and null routes upstream for bad peers
 347 2011-06-26 03:32:49 <gmaxwell> enquirer: bdb uses a lot of fsync in order to not get corrupted by surprise shutdown.
 348 2011-06-26 03:32:55 <lfm> enquirer: why do you say it is needless?
 349 2011-06-26 03:33:07 <jrmithdobbs> dehuman: it's a very hard problem to solve well
 350 2011-06-26 03:33:10 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 351 2011-06-26 03:33:46 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 352 2011-06-26 03:34:14 <gmaxwell> Lots of providers use arbor (or its varrious competition) to take sampled feeds of traffic from all over the network and then detect attacks. (and allows them to inject null routes that are tagged to kill the traffic _source_ via urpf abuse)
 353 2011-06-26 03:35:07 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 354 2011-06-26 03:35:43 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: about the fsync, would a minireimplementation of journalled filesystem work? like journalled wallet, with atomic operations?
 355 2011-06-26 03:36:12 syke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 356 2011-06-26 03:36:29 phunction has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 357 2011-06-26 03:36:32 <lfm> xtalmath: "atomic" operation imply syncs don they?
 358 2011-06-26 03:36:36 <enquirer> the db is only 300 MB ... so what if it is corrupted during power down?
 359 2011-06-26 03:36:58 <xtalmath> gmaxwell, ive read your ECDSA deterministic wallet, i know how ecdsa works, but how safe do you feel this is in the case an attacker finds out multiple of your public keys?
 360 2011-06-26 03:37:27 <xtalmath> right, of course :(
 361 2011-06-26 03:37:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i worked somewhere that had one of the first netzentry deployments
 362 2011-06-26 03:37:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the shit is fuckin cool
 363 2011-06-26 03:38:01 <lfm> xtalmath: I dont think it matters at all if they see many public keys
 364 2011-06-26 03:38:05 <xtalmath> what is arbor?
 365 2011-06-26 03:38:12 syke has joined
 366 2011-06-26 03:38:24 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 367 2011-06-26 03:38:27 <enquirer> its custom made db?? why not use sqlite
 368 2011-06-26 03:38:28 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: system like i was mentioned, does traffic pattern analysis is capable of inserting nullroutes upstream
 369 2011-06-26 03:38:34 syke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 370 2011-06-26 03:38:35 <jrmithdobbs> s/was //
 371 2011-06-26 03:38:43 syke has joined
 372 2011-06-26 03:38:43 syke is now known as syke1911
 373 2011-06-26 03:38:47 <xtalmath> enquirer its berkely db i think
 374 2011-06-26 03:38:48 <lfm> enquirer: sq is lots of overhead
 375 2011-06-26 03:39:14 <pakaran> can someone send me testnet bitcoins?  my address is mqGaAX1dCC7VYzNG5h1uh9MQftjCU93zQU
 376 2011-06-26 03:39:24 <pakaran> and the fountain is working, but it keeps showing no confirmations
 377 2011-06-26 03:39:28 <pakaran> I think since nobody's mining
 378 2011-06-26 03:39:30 <lfm> enquirer: bdb is well tested for many many years
 379 2011-06-26 03:39:34 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: do you mean public keys or btc addresses, because the answer is very different depending, btw re: question to gmaxwell
 380 2011-06-26 03:39:36 <enquirer> couldn't be less efficient ... with 19GB writes and 1 hour of CPU time over 24 hours, doing almost nothing
 381 2011-06-26 03:39:55 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: the btc addresses do nothing to increase odds
 382 2011-06-26 03:39:56 gsathya has left ()
 383 2011-06-26 03:39:57 combo has joined
 384 2011-06-26 03:40:03 <lfm> enquirer: well of course sqlite could be less efficient
 385 2011-06-26 03:40:06 Pathin_ has joined
 386 2011-06-26 03:40:10 <xtalmath> i mean public keys: the user doesnt only receive on the deterministic wallet but spends
 387 2011-06-26 03:40:27 <xtalmath> so that reveals the past public keys
 388 2011-06-26 03:40:45 <lfm> enquirer: ok if you dont run bitcoin at all then youd save a lot of processing
 389 2011-06-26 03:40:55 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: and i think you'd need an extremely large number of public keys to increase odds, and I'm not sure it even would in that case, i'll let him speak to that. he's much better at math ;p
 390 2011-06-26 03:41:05 <xtalmath> also my question relates to type2
 391 2011-06-26 03:41:45 <lfm> other keys wouldnt help at all
 392 2011-06-26 03:42:48 syke1911 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 393 2011-06-26 03:43:19 <jrmithdobbs> "at all" is a pretty strong statement
 394 2011-06-26 03:43:25 <lfm> yup
 395 2011-06-26 03:43:26 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 396 2011-06-26 03:43:34 <phantomcircuit> i think the network is highly segmented
 397 2011-06-26 03:43:49 <xtalmath> also the notation on the forum is pretty wordlike, it does mean that the private keys (the scalars, not the points) are linear right? (a+n*b) with a,b the 2 secret scalars which form the private keys as a function of n?
 398 2011-06-26 03:43:54 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: why?
 399 2011-06-26 03:44:06 <phantomcircuit> transactions are being broadcast by britcoin's bitcoind which never reach anybody
 400 2011-06-26 03:44:16 <jrmithdobbs> ruh roh
 401 2011-06-26 03:44:36 <phantomcircuit> i just tested it and my client with 8 connections isn't getting the transaction
 402 2011-06-26 03:44:42 <phantomcircuit> but i can see bitcoind sent it
 403 2011-06-26 03:44:48 <xtalmath> has this wallet been develloped/implemented in some patch?
 404 2011-06-26 03:44:50 <phantomcircuit> and is connected to like 80 peers
 405 2011-06-26 03:45:01 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: /msg
 406 2011-06-26 03:45:07 <lfm> phatoso you're saying the net is fragmented?
 407 2011-06-26 03:46:06 wolfspraul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 408 2011-06-26 03:46:09 <lfm> phantomcircuit: britcoin isnt attached to the bitcoin net?
 409 2011-06-26 03:46:27 <phantomcircuit> wait nvm
 410 2011-06-26 03:46:31 caedes has joined
 411 2011-06-26 03:46:32 <xtalmath> oof
 412 2011-06-26 03:46:34 <phantomcircuit> my bitcoin was off when it was sent
 413 2011-06-26 03:46:39 <phantomcircuit> and it isn't in a block yet
 414 2011-06-26 03:46:42 <phantomcircuit> so of course i dont see it
 415 2011-06-26 03:47:08 <phantomcircuit> lfm, it's very well connected actually
 416 2011-06-26 03:47:41 Tim-7967 has joined
 417 2011-06-26 03:47:42 Tim-7967 has quit (Changing host)
 418 2011-06-26 03:47:42 Tim-7967 has joined
 419 2011-06-26 03:48:21 <lfm> ok
 420 2011-06-26 03:49:16 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 421 2011-06-26 03:49:25 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: As far as I can tell the only risk is that they find out the rest of your keys if they also find some crazy relationship with the hash function that allows them to recover the secret.
 422 2011-06-26 03:49:40 <xtalmath> the ECDSA based wallet is really nice and elegant in concept, so I trust the hashbased deterministic wallet much more, security through obscurity works if only you know that you are using the algorithm, damn you for publishing it
 423 2011-06-26 03:49:54 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: here is how I'm convinced that it is no danger to your private key:
 424 2011-06-26 03:49:58 Pathin_ has joined
 425 2011-06-26 03:50:07 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: was type2 implemented? I think I can find a flaw in it...
 426 2011-06-26 03:50:18 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: I've implemented it outside of bitcoin.
 427 2011-06-26 03:50:41 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: actually you should still get it on inv broadcast from your peers
 428 2011-06-26 03:50:47 <lfm> they use /dev/random or /dev/urandom or some such right?
 429 2011-06-26 03:50:52 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: ill think about it, maybe in a few days ill challenge you to give me sequence of public addresses generated by it
 430 2011-06-26 03:50:54 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: since it should be in their inv and you haven't seen it before
 431 2011-06-26 03:51:22 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: K.
 432 2011-06-26 03:51:24 <phantomcircuit> possibly all my peers are 0.3.23 and blocking it from being relayed
 433 2011-06-26 03:51:29 <enquirer> hmm its also flushing the wallet on every db operation
 434 2011-06-26 03:51:41 <lfm> enquirer: as it should
 435 2011-06-26 03:51:56 <xtalmath> and just for the fun of it you could put some symbolic BTC on the accounts
 436 2011-06-26 03:52:45 <phantomcircuit> probably going to have to wait for an eligius block or something
 437 2011-06-26 03:52:50 <xtalmath> the best test to see if you really trust it yourself or designed a backdoor is to have you put a lot in it though ;)
 438 2011-06-26 03:53:03 <phantomcircuit> ah there we go
 439 2011-06-26 03:53:06 <phantomcircuit> 1/unconfirmed
 440 2011-06-26 03:53:19 odessa has joined
 441 2011-06-26 03:53:29 <enquirer> but wallet only changes when you generate new keys, isn't it?
 442 2011-06-26 03:53:32 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: it's pretty easy to see that it doesn't endanger the private key. E.g. if it did, I could take one of _your_ public keys, and generate a bunch more public keys related to it, then perform whatever attack to get your private key.
 443 2011-06-26 03:53:53 <gmaxwell> enquirer: no, it also changes when you send coins, since that generates new hidden change addresses.
 444 2011-06-26 03:54:06 odessa has quit (Client Quit)
 445 2011-06-26 03:54:06 <lfm> enquirer: wallet balances are updated for every relevant txn
 446 2011-06-26 03:54:16 Tim-7967 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 447 2011-06-26 03:54:17 <phantomcircuit> and what lfm said
 448 2011-06-26 03:54:24 odessa has joined
 449 2011-06-26 03:54:24 <jrmithdobbs> and addr.dat is updated every like 5ms it seems like
 450 2011-06-26 03:54:32 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
 451 2011-06-26 03:54:35 <gmaxwell> I assume everyone has seen this: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22434
 452 2011-06-26 03:54:38 <gmaxwell> Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin "No Forced TX Fee" mainline client fork
 453 2011-06-26 03:54:38 Tim-7967 has joined
 454 2011-06-26 03:54:38 Tim-7967 has quit (Changing host)
 455 2011-06-26 03:54:38 Tim-7967 has joined
 456 2011-06-26 03:54:49 <jrmithdobbs> seriously
 457 2011-06-26 03:55:22 gm has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 458 2011-06-26 03:55:24 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 459 2011-06-26 03:56:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: why don't the idjits just stop storing like .01btc per address
 460 2011-06-26 03:56:42 <jrmithdobbs> ugh
 461 2011-06-26 03:56:57 gm has joined
 462 2011-06-26 03:56:58 <xtalmath> erm, does his fork start from scratch or just random money distribution of the current blockchain?
 463 2011-06-26 03:57:19 <enquirer> but it should update wallet.dat only for those tx that reference one of keys in the wallet
 464 2011-06-26 03:57:21 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: he just (badly) removes the fee req logic
 465 2011-06-26 03:57:23 <jrmithdobbs> very badly
 466 2011-06-26 03:57:23 gm is now known as Guest33413
 467 2011-06-26 03:57:26 <gmaxwell> it's just a modified client that doesn't prevent you from footgunning yourself.
 468 2011-06-26 03:57:48 <jrmithdobbs> even though he'll send out txns that noone else will forward
 469 2011-06-26 03:58:03 <jrmithdobbs> and you'll have to modify your wallet to fix it afterwards to send with official client
 470 2011-06-26 03:58:06 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 471 2011-06-26 03:58:17 <xtalmath> well if he takes the speculators and idjits with him thats all right
 472 2011-06-26 03:58:40 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 473 2011-06-26 03:58:43 <phantomcircuit> i think ill get a EAH6950
 474 2011-06-26 03:58:43 <gmaxwell> The speculators all stay in the exchanges.
 475 2011-06-26 03:58:51 <phantomcircuit> so i can run 8 monitors
 476 2011-06-26 03:58:53 <xtalmath> I might download his sources just to see how to fork :P
 477 2011-06-26 03:59:10 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: if the exchanges can't see your transactions it doesn't much matter
 478 2011-06-26 03:59:12 bk128 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 479 2011-06-26 03:59:16 <enquirer> gmaxwell: that's the same, generates new hidden change addresses = generate new key
 480 2011-06-26 03:59:19 <lfm> ya speculators never actually use the block chain or the bitcoin net, they just use an exchange account
 481 2011-06-26 03:59:32 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, even the most retarded transactions will eventually find their way to a miner who will include them
 482 2011-06-26 03:59:33 bk128 has joined
 483 2011-06-26 03:59:34 Pathin_ has joined
 484 2011-06-26 03:59:34 <gmaxwell> enquirer: as lfm pointed out it also updates to keep your balance.
 485 2011-06-26 03:59:39 <phantomcircuit> (especially if you know what you're doing ;)
 486 2011-06-26 03:59:49 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: at this point the wait period is pretty huge, though
 487 2011-06-26 03:59:50 <gmaxwell> enquirer: but most people are surprised by the "new hidden change addresses = generate new key" because it's hidden.
 488 2011-06-26 04:00:14 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, heh yeah
 489 2011-06-26 04:00:33 <xtalmath> lfm: if the majority of bitcoin holders are idiots, they start speculating with his coins (apparently bigger value) until things go wrong
 490 2011-06-26 04:00:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: right, but it's not hard to create a txn that will not work well. Especially by violating the minimum output with no fee at all.
 491 2011-06-26 04:01:20 <lfm> well Im not sure what percentage of bitocin users are ape idiots
 492 2011-06-26 04:01:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, any transaction a miner includes will work
 493 2011-06-26 04:01:30 <phantomcircuit> so long as the script is actually valid
 494 2011-06-26 04:01:41 <phantomcircuit> it might just take a very long time
 495 2011-06-26 04:02:36 <lfm> gmaxwell: I thot some miners like art forzz still accepted all txn even free ones
 496 2011-06-26 04:03:19 <gmaxwell> Perhaps so, of course you actually have to get the transaction to him.
 497 2011-06-26 04:03:36 <lfm> ya ok
 498 2011-06-26 04:03:49 <gmaxwell> It's hard to get a feel for how long dust transaction take, since they often don't get forwarded at all you won't see them in the memory pool even if you take them.
 499 2011-06-26 04:03:50 <phantomcircuit> eligius has a fixed linear fee schedule
 500 2011-06-26 04:03:59 <enquirer>  gmaxwell: almost all tx are not ours and don't affect wallet at all, so no need to flush the wallet
 501 2011-06-26 04:04:14 aristidesfl1 has joined
 502 2011-06-26 04:04:24 aristidesfl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 503 2011-06-26 04:04:48 <gmaxwell> enquirer: are you saying the wallet itself got $gigs of writes?
 504 2011-06-26 04:04:50 <phantomcircuit> 0.00004096 BTC per 512 bytes
 505 2011-06-26 04:05:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yep, I pointed out eligius in my response there.
 506 2011-06-26 04:05:14 <phantomcircuit> although i assume he has a floor
 507 2011-06-26 04:05:25 <gmaxwell> 512 bytes is the floor.
 508 2011-06-26 04:05:28 <phantomcircuit> since i've seen free transactions from eligius
 509 2011-06-26 04:05:38 <phantomcircuit> or i think i have
 510 2011-06-26 04:05:49 <lfm> phantomcircuit: not recent
 511 2011-06-26 04:05:55 <gmaxwell> Only luke's crazy transactions.
 512 2011-06-26 04:06:12 <gmaxwell> (you can make a txn which has a payment to eligius in it, and it'll mine that with no 'fee')
 513 2011-06-26 04:06:41 <phantomcircuit> lol
 514 2011-06-26 04:06:51 <phantomcircuit> so a fee that's only redeemable by eligius
 515 2011-06-26 04:06:51 <phantomcircuit> nice
 516 2011-06-26 04:07:07 <gmaxwell> And there is a patch to bitcoin which adds an OP_NOP and an eligius fee output, and always peers with a node that relays to eligius.
 517 2011-06-26 04:07:25 <gmaxwell> The non-standard script discourages anyone else from mining it.
 518 2011-06-26 04:07:34 <lfm> well if you have something to pay him for thats reasonable but itd be silly to do that instead of a fee
 519 2011-06-26 04:08:00 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 520 2011-06-26 04:08:25 Txyru` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 521 2011-06-26 04:08:58 <phantomcircuit> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176177
 522 2011-06-26 04:08:59 <phantomcircuit> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121437
 523 2011-06-26 04:09:01 <phantomcircuit> zomg want
 524 2011-06-26 04:09:03 <phantomcircuit> x6
 525 2011-06-26 04:09:05 Pathin_ has joined
 526 2011-06-26 04:09:08 ahihi2 has joined
 527 2011-06-26 04:09:14 <phantomcircuit> anybody have 10k i can uh borrow?
 528 2011-06-26 04:09:16 <enquirer>  gmaxwell: let's see wallet is 104kb, it updates every 30 seconds on average, with current (very low) volume of transactions, so its about 300mb of writes
 529 2011-06-26 04:09:23 Herodes has joined
 530 2011-06-26 04:09:25 k^^ has joined
 531 2011-06-26 04:09:52 sacarlson has joined
 532 2011-06-26 04:10:06 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hm. That display looks nice!
 533 2011-06-26 04:10:10 <enquirer> gmaxwell: so it's not the main source of writes, just most obvious
 534 2011-06-26 04:10:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes now i just need 6 of them
 535 2011-06-26 04:10:20 <phantomcircuit> hehe
 536 2011-06-26 04:10:27 <jrmithdobbs> enquirer: you sure your numbers are coming from the wallet.dat and not addr.dat?
 537 2011-06-26 04:10:34 <xtalmath> the same thread says BitCoin will soon be written in Qt, is this true? if so when? is this one guy trying to port it, or a shared goal by most developers?
 538 2011-06-26 04:10:41 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: very soon
 539 2011-06-26 04:10:55 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: code's already functional
 540 2011-06-26 04:11:04 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if you could put 2 6950's in a single box and run 12 displays
 541 2011-06-26 04:11:05 <xtalmath> how soon is that? will it be 0.3.24?
 542 2011-06-26 04:11:18 <phantomcircuit> heh qt deserves a 0.4.0
 543 2011-06-26 04:11:25 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: .4.0 or not long after
 544 2011-06-26 04:11:30 <CIA-103> bitcoin: wyze * reaa8d67380e4 mining-proxy/ (8 files in 6 dirs): New pool status statistics, highlighting in various place http://tinyurl.com/62gxzda
 545 2011-06-26 04:11:31 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r7aec17fa9823 mining-proxy/ (8 files in 6 dirs): Merge pull request #22 from wyze/master http://tinyurl.com/697rf2v
 546 2011-06-26 04:11:38 combo is now known as syke1911
 547 2011-06-26 04:11:46 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: is my understanding
 548 2011-06-26 04:11:54 <xtalmath> it will jump from 0.2.23 to 0.4.0?
 549 2011-06-26 04:12:21 <jrmithdobbs> we're on .3.23
 550 2011-06-26 04:12:24 <xtalmath> how soon is that in weeks?
 551 2011-06-26 04:12:25 <phantomcircuit> select deposit_accounts.account_id,currencies.currency_abbreviation from deposit_accounts,currencies where deposit_accounts.currency_id=currencies.currency_id;
 552 2011-06-26 04:12:27 <phantomcircuit> oops
 553 2011-06-26 04:12:30 <phantomcircuit> plz2ignore
 554 2011-06-26 04:12:31 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: no idea yet
 555 2011-06-26 04:12:33 <xtalmath> i meant 3.23
 556 2011-06-26 04:12:43 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: "soon"
 557 2011-06-26 04:12:49 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: i'd guess a month or so
 558 2011-06-26 04:12:57 <xtalmath> ok
 559 2011-06-26 04:13:26 <lfm> so itl prolly be 12 weeks
 560 2011-06-26 04:14:05 heyz0r has joined
 561 2011-06-26 04:14:41 <nhodges> when i'm working with the mbc sci api, do i need to use gpg? i seem to be generating a blank paypage url each time
 562 2011-06-26 04:14:52 <nhodges> like the function to encrypt the string is breaking
 563 2011-06-26 04:14:54 <jrmithdobbs> the what
 564 2011-06-26 04:15:00 <nhodges> mybitcoin sci api
 565 2011-06-26 04:15:03 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, god i realized i haven't been checking user_id at all
 566 2011-06-26 04:15:06 <upb> phantomcircuit: you dont use ansi joins ?:P
 567 2011-06-26 04:15:07 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
 568 2011-06-26 04:15:22 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: fix that shit
 569 2011-06-26 04:15:28 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 570 2011-06-26 04:15:30 <phantomcircuit> upb, why bother im already using postgresql RETURNING anyways
 571 2011-06-26 04:15:37 <upb> haha
 572 2011-06-26 04:15:53 <phantomcircuit> seriously
 573 2011-06-26 04:16:00 <phantomcircuit> INSERT ... RETURNING is fucking brilliant
 574 2011-06-26 04:16:12 <jrmithdobbs> SQL92 4 LYFE
 575 2011-06-26 04:16:15 <phantomcircuit> with mysql you have to do separate transactions
 576 2011-06-26 04:16:15 <gmaxwell> Yea, some of the postgresisms are really nice.
 577 2011-06-26 04:16:28 Txyru has joined
 578 2011-06-26 04:16:35 <phantomcircuit> which is not only much slower, but could result in an inconsistent db state
 579 2011-06-26 04:16:49 <jrmithdobbs> just use oracle and be done with it
 580 2011-06-26 04:17:01 <phantomcircuit> i refuse
 581 2011-06-26 04:17:02 <phantomcircuit> XD
 582 2011-06-26 04:17:16 <jrmithdobbs> oh ya
 583 2011-06-26 04:17:16 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, also im obviously not talking about the live exchange
 584 2011-06-26 04:17:22 <jrmithdobbs> wait until you have to scale to real numbers ;p
 585 2011-06-26 04:17:33 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 586 2011-06-26 04:17:38 <upb> i didnt actually mean for portability but becaue its more readable :)
 587 2011-06-26 04:17:40 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ya i know what you've been working on
 588 2011-06-26 04:17:55 <phantomcircuit> if this has to scale past 1k tps im just going to write a realtime exchange in c++
 589 2011-06-26 04:18:08 wolfspraul has joined
 590 2011-06-26 04:18:19 <jrmithdobbs> you'll still need a datastore with functioning HA
 591 2011-06-26 04:18:34 Pathin_ has joined
 592 2011-06-26 04:18:36 <jrmithdobbs> which pretty much means rac whether you like it or not
 593 2011-06-26 04:18:39 <phantomcircuit> yeah but that would be nothing but a journal
 594 2011-06-26 04:18:51 <jrmithdobbs> if you want something tested/vetted, anyways
 595 2011-06-26 04:19:08 <jrmithdobbs> and by that point your shareholders will demand such ;p
 596 2011-06-26 04:19:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
 597 2011-06-26 04:19:55 <phantomcircuit> <-- going to make sure company is structured that idgaf what they think
 598 2011-06-26 04:19:56 <phantomcircuit> xD
 599 2011-06-26 04:20:28 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, anyways it turns out forex type stuff is actually significantly harder
 600 2011-06-26 04:20:52 <phantomcircuit> the contention is such that you basically cant scale horizontally
 601 2011-06-26 04:21:08 <phantomcircuit> GBP/BTC pretty much has to run on a single system
 602 2011-06-26 04:21:38 <phantomcircuit> you throw other systems into the mix and you're just wasting time with network latency
 603 2011-06-26 04:21:53 <phantomcircuit> even if it's micro seconds
 604 2011-06-26 04:21:57 koleg has joined
 605 2011-06-26 04:24:07 <jrmithdobbs> i'm not sure i buy that assertion
 606 2011-06-26 04:24:38 <jrmithdobbs> especially with 10gig
 607 2011-06-26 04:24:58 <jrmithdobbs> assuming sufficiently powerful systems on both ends
 608 2011-06-26 04:24:59 ahihi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 609 2011-06-26 04:25:30 <upb> interesting, how would you scale order matching horizontally?
 610 2011-06-26 04:26:05 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, the actual order matching shouldn't take more than a few microseconds
 611 2011-06-26 04:26:36 <phantomcircuit> order in, buy up/sell down, journal result
 612 2011-06-26 04:26:43 <phantomcircuit> the slow part is the journal
 613 2011-06-26 04:26:52 <pakaran> why does it seem that no new testnet blocks are showing up?
 614 2011-06-26 04:26:59 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 615 2011-06-26 04:27:02 <pakaran> everything I've done on testnet shows up unconfirmed/0
 616 2011-06-26 04:27:32 RazielZ has joined
 617 2011-06-26 04:28:03 Pathin_ has joined
 618 2011-06-26 04:30:47 <phantomcircuit> pakaran, someone jacked up the difficulty and left
 619 2011-06-26 04:30:55 <phantomcircuit> so it takes forever to generate a new block
 620 2011-06-26 04:31:11 <pakaran> and the difficulty isnt going to adust for awhile?
 621 2011-06-26 04:31:13 <xtalmath> are testnet coins being sold?
 622 2011-06-26 04:31:21 <xtalmath> pakaran: correct
 623 2011-06-26 04:31:29 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Neil Kistner * rf1a8503f9d16 mining-proxy/htdocs/views/admin/dashboard.view.php: Removed the word "shares" after the number of shares http://tinyurl.com/5v62pl7
 624 2011-06-26 04:31:31 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r670de6138b0e mining-proxy/htdocs/config.inc.php.sample: Whitespace http://tinyurl.com/5tq3gtl
 625 2011-06-26 04:31:32 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r05ace9fddafe mining-proxy/htdocs/views/admin/dashboard.view.php: Merge remote branch 'wyze/remove-shares' http://tinyurl.com/68j4tvw
 626 2011-06-26 04:31:56 <xtalmath> who is CIA-103 and why does he post cryptic messages?
 627 2011-06-26 04:32:01 <pakaran> is it possible to run a cpu miner on testnet/
 628 2011-06-26 04:32:04 <pakaran> becase i'll do it
 629 2011-06-26 04:32:16 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: it's a SCM to IRC relay.
 630 2011-06-26 04:32:28 <xtalmath> SCM?
 631 2011-06-26 04:32:40 <gmaxwell> source code management. e.g. svn.
 632 2011-06-26 04:32:58 <xtalmath> not supply chain management or software configuration management
 633 2011-06-26 04:33:13 <xtalmath> M seems to definitely stand for management according to you and google
 634 2011-06-26 04:33:57 Guest33413 is now known as gm
 635 2011-06-26 04:35:40 <pakaran> xtalmath, I'll give you testnet coins... you just won't be able to do anything with them until a block gets generated... sigh
 636 2011-06-26 04:36:37 <xtalmath> I dont want any, just thought that if an exchange was setup once difficulty has lowered, the difficulty would be maintained more smoothly
 637 2011-06-26 04:36:46 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 638 2011-06-26 04:37:01 <jrmithdobbs> why is cia even watching mining-proxy?
 639 2011-06-26 04:37:08 <pakaran> is 26601 the current testnet block number btw?
 640 2011-06-26 04:37:14 <pakaran> xtalmath, that's a thought.
 641 2011-06-26 04:37:18 <xtalmath> testnet coins are bound to get lost, since well, theyre for testing purpouses, so it might pique interest of speculators
 642 2011-06-26 04:37:24 Pathin_ has joined
 643 2011-06-26 04:37:25 <enquirer> in 8 minutes there were 400 operations on addr.dat, out of this 10 flushes
 644 2011-06-26 04:37:26 <pakaran> i've seen people offering to sell 1k testnet coins for .05 real ones, etc
 645 2011-06-26 04:37:39 <pakaran> not sure how close that is to the minig difficulty ratio though
 646 2011-06-26 04:37:49 <jrmithdobbs> enquirer: ya, addr.dat and related code are crap
 647 2011-06-26 04:38:07 <jrmithdobbs> enquirer: watch it on osx, p sure the ops double or more
 648 2011-06-26 04:38:11 <pakaran> xtalmath, and some of those speculators will be mining... and thus the amout of new blocks on testnet should be the same as the "exchange rate"?
 649 2011-06-26 04:38:39 <xtalmath> no amount of new blocks should remain 10minutes per block
 650 2011-06-26 04:38:39 <enquirer> blk0001.dat was opened and closed 1158 times
 651 2011-06-26 04:38:56 <pakaran> right
 652 2011-06-26 04:39:01 <pakaran> that's what i was trying to say, right
 653 2011-06-26 04:39:13 <pakaran> because mining on testnet would have the same expected bitcoins as mining on the real net
 654 2011-06-26 04:39:19 <samlander> what's the point in buying testnet coins
 655 2011-06-26 04:39:25 <pakaran> on the other hand, some of the speculators would also abuse the testnet faucet like crazy
 656 2011-06-26 04:39:42 <pakaran> samlander, setting up a market would encourage people to mine on testnet
 657 2011-06-26 04:39:48 <samlander> i understand that the source is open and anyone can start a new currency, but at what cost?
 658 2011-06-26 04:40:04 <pakaran> so we wouldn't have the situation like now where the new block is taking forever because it was one person mining heavily, who left
 659 2011-06-26 04:40:06 <samlander> why dillute the value of the currently established currency by fracturing the source?
 660 2011-06-26 04:40:31 <xtalmath> actually comparing the current block number of testnet  with current block of real-block of real at introduction of testnet might be interesting to graph over time
 661 2011-06-26 04:40:32 <jrmithdobbs> pakaran: who was that
 662 2011-06-26 04:40:35 <enquirer> blkindex 2919 writes
 663 2011-06-26 04:40:46 <pakaran> we dont know
 664 2011-06-26 04:41:03 <pakaran> i'd just mine on testnet rather than complain
 665 2011-06-26 04:41:16 <pakaran> but all i have is a dual core lapptop cpu that gets about 600 khash
 666 2011-06-26 04:41:23 <enquirer> database\log   1038 flushes to disk
 667 2011-06-26 04:41:23 tca` has left ()
 668 2011-06-26 04:41:24 <pakaran> and i don't know how to run my cpu miner on testnet without a pool
 669 2011-06-26 04:41:55 <samlander> lol.. what's the difficult level on testnet right now?
 670 2011-06-26 04:42:05 <pakaran> 46 difficulty equiv
 671 2011-06-26 04:42:13 <enquirer> wallet.dat overwritten 231 time
 672 2011-06-26 04:42:15 <samlander> ...
 673 2011-06-26 04:42:18 <pakaran> need something like a quarter terahash to get a block
 674 2011-06-26 04:42:29 <samlander> my god i wonder how many blocks i would solve pointing my 1 GH/s at it
 675 2011-06-26 04:43:03 <upb> theres this new exchange doing testing on testnet
 676 2011-06-26 04:43:07 <upb> that probably caused it :)
 677 2011-06-26 04:43:13 <pakaran> about ten an hour, samlander
 678 2011-06-26 04:43:24 <pakaran> and if you are willing to generate 2 blocks, a lot of us would be grateful
 679 2011-06-26 04:43:31 <pakaran> like i could send my testnet coins back to the faucet
 680 2011-06-26 04:43:36 <pakaran> and not feel guilty anymore
 681 2011-06-26 04:44:00 <jrmithdobbs> pakaran: that's funny
 682 2011-06-26 04:44:08 <jrmithdobbs> time to restart testnet? ;p
 683 2011-06-26 04:44:09 <enquirer> so it's mostly database\log flushes that are responsible for most IO
 684 2011-06-26 04:44:44 <xtalmath> pakaran: if he points his GH/s at it it would be 24 blocks an hour
 685 2011-06-26 04:45:13 k^^ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
 686 2011-06-26 04:45:29 <nhodges> mybitcoin SCI api is not posting back anything to my receiver
 687 2011-06-26 04:45:30 <nhodges> :/
 688 2011-06-26 04:45:32 <jrmithdobbs> and fuck up difficulty more!
 689 2011-06-26 04:45:34 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 690 2011-06-26 04:46:08 _ape has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 691 2011-06-26 04:46:13 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 692 2011-06-26 04:46:29 TheZimm has quit (Quit: When will we learn?)
 693 2011-06-26 04:46:55 Pathin_ has joined
 694 2011-06-26 04:46:55 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 695 2011-06-26 04:47:25 <enquirer> ah no, thats 173 log flushes
 696 2011-06-26 04:47:57 <lfm> enquirer: in how long?
 697 2011-06-26 04:48:27 <enquirer> 8 minutes
 698 2011-06-26 04:48:38 <lfm> minor problem
 699 2011-06-26 04:48:59 <enquirer> suspisious why  blk0001.dat was opened and closed 1158 times
 700 2011-06-26 04:49:27 <lfm> in 8 minutes/
 701 2011-06-26 04:49:30 <lfm> ?
 702 2011-06-26 04:49:31 <enquirer> yes
 703 2011-06-26 04:49:41 <lfm> hmm , good question
 704 2011-06-26 04:49:47 <enquirer> let's see
 705 2011-06-26 04:50:35 <gmaxwell> enquirer: you're not still syncing up with the blockchain are you?
 706 2011-06-26 04:52:25 <enquirer> 133310 blocks
 707 2011-06-26 04:52:28 <pakaran> the problem is testnet difficulty won't go *down* until enough blocks are generated for a difficulty update.
 708 2011-06-26 04:52:30 nocreativenick1 has joined
 709 2011-06-26 04:52:32 <enquirer> running it over 24 hours
 710 2011-06-26 04:53:04 <lfm> pakaran: yup, It is the problem the old testnet faced too
 711 2011-06-26 04:53:26 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
 712 2011-06-26 04:53:27 <gribble> 133310
 713 2011-06-26 04:53:29 <pakaran> hmm
 714 2011-06-26 04:53:30 amiller has joined
 715 2011-06-26 04:53:35 <pakaran> how do i point a cpu miner to testnet?
 716 2011-06-26 04:53:42 <pakaran> i can run one without a pool, right?
 717 2011-06-26 04:53:42 <lfm> enquirer: so you are caught up now
 718 2011-06-26 04:54:12 <lfm> pakaran: point miner at localhost and run bitcoind -testnet
 719 2011-06-26 04:54:48 <pakaran> and how do i enter the key that the generated coins should be given to?
 720 2011-06-26 04:55:14 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 721 2011-06-26 04:55:16 Coinstacker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 722 2011-06-26 04:55:17 <lfm> pakaran: you dont, bitcoind will make up a key and put it in a local wallet.dat
 723 2011-06-26 04:56:03 <pakaran> i have a testnet miner running
 724 2011-06-26 04:56:15 <pakaran> but you're saying i just enter localhost instead of the mining pool name, with no username or pass?
 725 2011-06-26 04:56:17 <pakaran> i'm confused
 726 2011-06-26 04:56:25 <pakaran> i mean, i have a testnet *cllient* running
 727 2011-06-26 04:56:29 Pathin_ has joined
 728 2011-06-26 04:56:49 <lfm> pakaran: use same rpcuser and rpcpassword from your ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.cong
 729 2011-06-26 04:56:56 <lfm> .conf
 730 2011-06-26 04:57:57 <lfm> pakaran: make one then
 731 2011-06-26 04:58:08 <pakaran> ...
 732 2011-06-26 04:58:09 <lfm> eeeeiiiii flood
 733 2011-06-26 04:58:10 <pakaran> i'm very confused
 734 2011-06-26 04:58:15 <pakaran> is this going to be too much of a fuss?
 735 2011-06-26 04:58:54 <lfm> make file ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf and put in two lines :rpcuser=username and rpcpass=password1234
 736 2011-06-26 04:59:36 <lfm> rpcpassword=pass1234
 737 2011-06-26 05:00:16 <pakaran> in my testnet directory, you mean?
 738 2011-06-26 05:00:21 <lfm> well if makeing two lines in a text editor is too much ...
 739 2011-06-26 05:00:50 Gonzago has joined
 740 2011-06-26 05:01:32 <lfm> not in testnet dir afaik
 741 2011-06-26 05:02:55 <lfm> whats challenge.txt for?
 742 2011-06-26 05:04:28 <pakaran> hmm
 743 2011-06-26 05:04:36 <pakaran> minerd doesn't take the -testnet option
 744 2011-06-26 05:04:46 <lfm> right
 745 2011-06-26 05:05:07 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 746 2011-06-26 05:05:08 <pakaran> so i just point it at the testnet port, but what's that?
 747 2011-06-26 05:05:28 <lfm> rpc port does not change for testnet
 748 2011-06-26 05:05:41 <lfm> only the p2p port changes
 749 2011-06-26 05:06:02 Pathin_ has joined
 750 2011-06-26 05:06:20 <pakaran> so i need to not be running a regular client at all?
 751 2011-06-26 05:06:33 <lfm> huh?
 752 2011-06-26 05:06:47 <pakaran> so that it connects to the testnet client, and mines for testnet?
 753 2011-06-26 05:06:48 <lfm> oh ya shut down your regular bitcoin
 754 2011-06-26 05:07:17 <pakaran> ok
 755 2011-06-26 05:07:26 <pakaran> that was the problem, i think
 756 2011-06-26 05:07:58 <pakaran> it's still not working.
 757 2011-06-26 05:08:00 <pakaran> nathan@pakaran ~/cpuminer-1.0 $ minerd  --url http://localhost --userpass foobar:32768
 758 2011-06-26 05:08:00 <pakaran> [2011-06-26 01:06:18] HTTP request failed: couldn't connect to host
 759 2011-06-26 05:08:00 <pakaran> [2011-06-26 01:06:18] json_rpc_call failed, retry after 30 seconds
 760 2011-06-26 05:08:00 <pakaran> [2011-06-26 01:06:18] 1 miner threads started, using SHA256 'c' algorithm.
 761 2011-06-26 05:08:47 <lfm> pakaran: let the bitcoin run for a while befor starting the miner to make sure you have whole testnet block chain
 762 2011-06-26 05:09:28 <lfm> nm looks like its running
 763 2011-06-26 05:10:59 DiSTANT187 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 764 2011-06-26 05:11:25 <lfm> pakaran: blocks should be 25729,
 765 2011-06-26 05:11:28 <lfm> or more
 766 2011-06-26 05:11:51 <pakaran> i have 26603?
 767 2011-06-26 05:11:57 freakazoid has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 768 2011-06-26 05:12:15 <pakaran> anyhow, i edited the config file, and i'm still getting could not connect to rpc server
 769 2011-06-26 05:12:27 <lfm> ok I have 26603, too now
 770 2011-06-26 05:12:51 <lfm> pakaran: di you put that user and password on your miner then?
 771 2011-06-26 05:13:29 <pakaran> oh crap
 772 2011-06-26 05:13:40 <pakaran> it's rpcpassword=, not rpcpass=
 773 2011-06-26 05:13:50 <lfm> ya sorry
 774 2011-06-26 05:14:08 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 775 2011-06-26 05:14:31 da2ce7 has joined
 776 2011-06-26 05:14:50 <pakaran> i'm STILL getting http request failed
 777 2011-06-26 05:15:00 <pakaran> i do want to just put in http://localhost for the url, right?
 778 2011-06-26 05:15:02 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 779 2011-06-26 05:15:02 <pakaran> no port?
 780 2011-06-26 05:15:08 <lfm> pakaran: did you put that user and password on your miner then?
 781 2011-06-26 05:15:20 <pakaran> yes, and i checked them several times
 782 2011-06-26 05:15:22 <lfm> maybe need to use 127.0.0.1 not localhost
 783 2011-06-26 05:15:44 Pathin_ has joined
 784 2011-06-26 05:15:51 <pakaran> but i didn'tk now it was possible to use a regular client as a mining pool though?
 785 2011-06-26 05:16:02 <pakaran> and it doesn't connect to 127.0.0.1 either
 786 2011-06-26 05:16:25 <lfm> ok are you running bitcoind or bitcoin?
 787 2011-06-26 05:16:33 <pakaran> wxbitcoin
 788 2011-06-26 05:16:42 <lfm> ok add -server option
 789 2011-06-26 05:17:15 <lfm> I never heard of wxbitcoin actually
 790 2011-06-26 05:17:23 <pakaran> still not working
 791 2011-06-26 05:17:34 <lfm> restart minerd?
 792 2011-06-26 05:17:44 <pakaran> i just did
 793 2011-06-26 05:17:47 <pakaran> still http request failed
 794 2011-06-26 05:18:17 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 795 2011-06-26 05:18:57 <lfm> so minerd userpass "username:pass123" maybe
 796 2011-06-26 05:19:02 <pakaran> ok
 797 2011-06-26 05:19:05 <lfm> so minerd userpass="username:pass123" maybe
 798 2011-06-26 05:19:07 <pakaran> putting in the port did work
 799 2011-06-26 05:19:12 <pakaran> in the miner
 800 2011-06-26 05:19:15 <pakaran> it's saying it's mining
 801 2011-06-26 05:19:36 <pakaran> presumably mining for one of my addresses in my testnet client?
 802 2011-06-26 05:19:46 <lfm> port 8332?
 803 2011-06-26 05:19:53 <pakaran> yeah
 804 2011-06-26 05:19:59 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 805 2011-06-26 05:20:16 <lfm> whats your khas/sec then?
 806 2011-06-26 05:20:20 <lfm> khash
 807 2011-06-26 05:20:21 <pakaran> the only "issue" is there's no longpoll
 808 2011-06-26 05:20:26 <pakaran> it hasn't displayed yet
 809 2011-06-26 05:20:32 lolwat` has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 810 2011-06-26 05:20:35 <pakaran> which is also odd since it does every minute when mining for a pool
 811 2011-06-26 05:20:57 <lfm> true there is no longpoll but since it is localhost it should be ok, not much slack
 812 2011-06-26 05:21:22 <lfm> pakaran: the first one can be a while
 813 2011-06-26 05:21:36 <upb> haha i hadnt read this thread http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20535.0;all
 814 2011-06-26 05:21:41 <pakaran> so when a block is found it should update pretty much immediately?
 815 2011-06-26 05:21:47 <upb> 'We had no intention of getting this to happen, and we have followed every industry standard to make this secure.'
 816 2011-06-26 05:22:19 <lfm> pakaran: naw it can still take 120 blocks before you can spend it
 817 2011-06-26 05:23:12 <pakaran> i know that.
 818 2011-06-26 05:23:18 <pakaran> it needs to wait for confirmations.
 819 2011-06-26 05:23:25 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 820 2011-06-26 05:23:34 <pakaran> and in any case, at current testnet difficulty...  i think i'll take about an hour to cpu mine a block
 821 2011-06-26 05:24:38 Pathin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 822 2011-06-26 05:24:39 Herodes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 824 2011-06-26 05:25:45 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 825 2011-06-26 05:25:55 <lfm> Difficulty: 45.5018    --- est next difficulty: 69.58, in 7.33 days
 826 2011-06-26 05:26:22 <pakaran> ;;bc gen 600 45
 827 2011-06-26 05:26:23 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
 828 2011-06-26 05:26:34 <pakaran> so how long will it take my 600 khash to generate a block?
 829 2011-06-26 05:26:41 <pakaran> i don't really know gribble syntax
 830 2011-06-26 05:26:47 bgupta has left ()
 831 2011-06-26 05:26:49 Tim-7967 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 832 2011-06-26 05:26:50 <lfm> ;;bc,gend 600 45
 833 2011-06-26 05:26:50 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 45, is 13.4110450745 BTC per day and 0.558793544769 BTC per hour.
 834 2011-06-26 05:27:04 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 600 45
 835 2011-06-26 05:27:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 45, is 3 days, 17 hours, 28 minutes, and 42 seconds
 836 2011-06-26 05:27:14 <pakaran> so likely not going to happen, thanks.
 837 2011-06-26 05:27:34 <lfm> youd prolly need to let it run a few days ya
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 854 2011-06-26 05:58:34 <FellowTraveler> hi all.
 855 2011-06-26 05:58:49 <lfm> FellowTraveler: hi
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 897 2011-06-26 07:06:26 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r37041fe28826 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/ (plugin.py test.py): GPG: add information on current login status to gpg info command. http://tinyurl.com/43n58d9
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 940 2011-06-26 07:54:13 <stuhood> ahh… testnet must be using the new irc channels now, eh?
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 943 2011-06-26 07:56:59 <stuhood> hm, no… #bitcoinTEST isn't partitioned.
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 945 2011-06-26 07:58:14 <stuhood> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet is just a little behind i guess.
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1013 2011-06-26 09:45:34 <minus> hm, bitcoin crashes on the testnet
1014 2011-06-26 09:45:50 <minus> bitcoin: serialize.h:1057: CDataStream& CDataStream::write(const char*, int): Assertion `nSize >= 0' failed.
1015 2011-06-26 09:49:00 <sipa> which version?
1016 2011-06-26 09:50:37 <minus> latest
1017 2011-06-26 09:50:56 <minus> linux x86 in a VM, mining
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1019 2011-06-26 09:52:45 <minus> 06/26/2011 09:34:40 Flushing wallet.dat \n Flushed wallet.dat 5ms
1020 2011-06-26 09:52:56 <minus> that's the last thing that happened
1021 2011-06-26 09:53:05 <minus> maybe because keypool=0?
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1023 2011-06-26 09:53:31 <minus> i set keypool=10 now and continue mining
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1032 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * rd3800d5 / (src/wallet.cpp src/wallet.h):
1033 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Fix segfault when creating new wallet
1034 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: The initialization of the default key used keyUser instead
1035 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: of vchDefaultKey. keyUser is now complete removed. - http://bit.ly/lReV0G
1036 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * rd0d8017 / (src/wallet.cpp src/wallet.h):
1037 2011-06-26 10:06:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #347 from sipa/delkeyuser
1038 2011-06-26 10:06:05 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Fix segfault when creating new wallet - http://bit.ly/jU5F0z
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1040 2011-06-26 10:08:01 <diki> is it possible to run two bitcoinD daemons on one machine(linux)?
1041 2011-06-26 10:08:17 <diki> both of them in -server mode
1042 2011-06-26 10:08:31 <minus> should be
1043 2011-06-26 10:08:56 <diki> i dont know though...how will both of them work with the same port
1044 2011-06-26 10:09:03 <minus> yea
1045 2011-06-26 10:09:10 <minus> that's what iwas just thinking about
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1047 2011-06-26 10:09:38 <minus> you can change the RPC port but the p2p port, no idea
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1050 2011-06-26 10:10:45 <sipa> -port
1051 2011-06-26 10:10:51 <upb> if you sent one as non listening you could
1052 2011-06-26 10:11:29 <minus> -port isn't in there https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
1053 2011-06-26 10:11:37 <minus> lousy work D:
1054 2011-06-26 10:13:01 <minus> $ ./bitcoin -port 8334
1055 2011-06-26 10:13:01 <minus> error: couldn't connect to server
1056 2011-06-26 10:13:05 <minus> uhm
1057 2011-06-26 10:13:20 <wumpus> minus: then add it it's a wiki
1058 2011-06-26 10:13:25 <minus> i'm confused now
1059 2011-06-26 10:13:53 <sipa> there are a few other undocumented options as well
1060 2011-06-26 10:14:17 <minus> oh sweet, port in the config works
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1064 2011-06-26 10:14:30 <sipa> yes, all options can be both in config file or on the command line
1065 2011-06-26 10:15:03 <minus> if you put option in the cmdline does it not parse the config file anymore?
1066 2011-06-26 10:15:09 <minus> wumpus: i'm on it now
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1068 2011-06-26 10:15:35 <sipa> command line overrides whatever is in the config file
1069 2011-06-26 10:15:38 <wumpus> minus: prolly should have been -port=8334
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1071 2011-06-26 10:15:57 <minus> hmm
1072 2011-06-26 10:16:11 <minus> so bitcoin is not using getopt
1073 2011-06-26 10:16:44 <wumpus> no it's using some boost option library
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1078 2011-06-26 10:19:51 <minus> is there a place you can get the whole blockchain from?
1079 2011-06-26 10:20:27 <minus> like the full blocks, not the compacted ones
1080 2011-06-26 10:21:07 <sipa> BlueMatt has a download on his site
1081 2011-06-26 10:21:31 <minus> and that would be?
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1087 2011-06-26 10:26:37 <zamgo> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bluematt+blockchain
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1089 2011-06-26 10:28:00 <prof7bit> is my assumption correct that a non-validating client like bitcoinj can be allowed to relay unconfirmed transactions to other clients but should *NEVER* relay any blocks to other clients in order to not weaken the integrity of the block chain?
1090 2011-06-26 10:29:00 <minus> lol zamgo i did search for it, i must have used the wrong keywords
1091 2011-06-26 10:30:19 <zamgo> ;)
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1093 2011-06-26 10:32:03 <prof7bit> if i write a lightweight client that does the simplified verification and it would become so immense popular that the majority of users would prefer it over the original client, would I be able to accidentally destroy the entire bitcoin network by releasing such a client to the unwashed masses?
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1095 2011-06-26 10:33:29 <sipa> as long as lightweight clients connect to a majority of honest full nodes, or connect to one trusted full node, there shouldn't be a problem
1096 2011-06-26 10:33:30 <minus> prof7bit: ofc not
1097 2011-06-26 10:33:51 <minus> hm
1098 2011-06-26 10:34:26 <minus> i have no problem with the fullblown client on my desktop but i'd need something lightweight for my server
1099 2011-06-26 10:34:29 <prof7bit> if i blindly relay blocks without verifying them?
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1101 2011-06-26 10:34:35 <minus> cause i cant really spare 70MB on it
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1105 2011-06-26 10:35:26 <sipa> prof7bit: lightweight nodes do not advertize as full nodes
1106 2011-06-26 10:35:37 <sipa> so other lightweight nodes should ignore them
1107 2011-06-26 10:35:45 <wumpus> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/348
1108 2011-06-26 10:35:53 <prof7bit> if they play by the ruls
1109 2011-06-26 10:35:56 <prof7bit> rules
1110 2011-06-26 10:36:49 <sipa> wumpus: meh, it's a mess
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1112 2011-06-26 10:37:33 <wumpus> yep usually I can fix these things b ut I have to admit this one is above my head :-)
1113 2011-06-26 10:37:38 <sipa> wumpus: serialize.h depends on wallet.h ?
1114 2011-06-26 10:38:16 <wumpus> huh it doesn't 
1115 2011-06-26 10:38:34 <prof7bit> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/VersionMessage.java
1116 2011-06-26 10:38:35 <wumpus> let me see, maybe I did something wrong xD already thought it didn't make sense
1117 2011-06-26 10:38:41 <prof7bit> line 30
1118 2011-06-26 10:39:02 <sipa> wumpus: you're rebasing bitcoin-qt to master?
1119 2011-06-26 10:39:03 <prof7bit> bitcoinj advertises itself as NODE_NETWORK
1120 2011-06-26 10:39:52 <wumpus> sipa: yes
1121 2011-06-26 10:39:56 <sipa> nice
1122 2011-06-26 10:40:17 <prof7bit> and this bit should not be set when a client does not have verified blocks
1123 2011-06-26 10:40:36 <sipa> prof7bit: hmm, talk to TD
1124 2011-06-26 10:40:49 <wumpus> sipa: ok can close the issue, this was me making a mistake (though it's still a mess xD)
1125 2011-06-26 10:41:16 <sipa> it's quite possible there is some dependency loop
1126 2011-06-26 10:41:44 <wumpus> yeah very possible
1127 2011-06-26 10:41:48 <sipa> that just happens to not be a problem because of the particular order of includes in headers.h
1128 2011-06-26 10:42:23 <wumpus> indeed, and external code might not want to include the whole headers.h shebang
1129 2011-06-26 10:43:14 <sipa> we should get rid of headers.h anyway
1130 2011-06-26 10:43:23 <sipa> ... someday
1131 2011-06-26 10:43:26 <wumpus> right
1132 2011-06-26 10:43:45 <yorick> how many calls to getreceivedbyaddress can I make in a minute?
1133 2011-06-26 10:43:51 <yorick> without risking bitcoind freezing up?
1134 2011-06-26 10:44:00 <upb> what does this dependency loop matter tho, it does have include guards right ?
1135 2011-06-26 10:44:22 <sipa> yorick: it shouldn't freeze up no matter what, if it does, you found a bug
1136 2011-06-26 10:44:25 <sipa> but there are known reports of these, indeed
1137 2011-06-26 10:44:33 <wumpus> include guards only guard against recursive disasters
1138 2011-06-26 10:45:04 <wumpus> you can still have issues with dependency loops, missing types etc
1139 2011-06-26 10:46:27 <wumpus> the problem basically was that in serialize.h I got an error about the definition of CWalletTx being an incomplete type, so I naively added  an include for the wallet type... but this is template code so it works differently
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1146 2011-06-26 10:49:03 <wump> db.h needs wallet.h it seems
1147 2011-06-26 10:49:12 <sipa> yes
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1149 2011-06-26 10:50:10 <sipa> one solution would be to create an abstract class 'LoadableWallet' in a separate file, which db.h depends on, and cwallet inherits from
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1151 2011-06-26 10:52:32 <gm> any interest in a nicer OS X bitcoin client? i'm thinking of writing one
1152 2011-06-26 10:52:54 <sipa> gm: there was already someone working on that
1153 2011-06-26 10:53:00 <wump> maybe I should just stop worrying and love headers.h
1154 2011-06-26 10:53:07 <gm> sipa: who?
1155 2011-06-26 10:53:18 <sipa> wump: for now, i think that's the best option
1156 2011-06-26 10:53:23 <gm> i was thinking of adding support for stuff like storing private keys in the OS X keychain
1157 2011-06-26 10:53:40 <wump> :D
1158 2011-06-26 10:53:54 <sipa> gm: not sure, but in general, i'd suggest you to wait until wump's bitcoin-qt is merged in mainline, solving the hardest part of creating an alternate gui
1159 2011-06-26 10:53:55 noagendamarket has joined
1160 2011-06-26 10:54:17 <gm> actually i was going to start by controlling bitcoin via RPC
1161 2011-06-26 10:54:18 <prof7bit> ok, forget what I said about bitcoinj, I did not read the code correctly. It will not set this bit. I need more coffee. Line 57:        localServices = 0;
1162 2011-06-26 10:54:44 <sipa> gm: then have a look at spesmilo
1163 2011-06-26 10:54:45 <wump> gm: I don't think you can achieve private key magic by just using JSON API
1164 2011-06-26 10:55:00 vinsci has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1165 2011-06-26 10:55:09 <sipa> indeed, most inner workings are not exposed via rpc
1166 2011-06-26 10:55:16 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
1167 2011-06-26 10:55:16 [Tycho] has joined
1168 2011-06-26 10:56:53 <gm> wump: that comes later, after bitcoin-qt is merged
1169 2011-06-26 10:57:40 <wump> gm: yes it might be best to keep a level of abstraction so you can switch how you interface later
1170 2011-06-26 10:57:42 <sipa> gm: you have a working osx dev environnement for bitcoin now?
1171 2011-06-26 10:57:53 Sebastan has joined
1172 2011-06-26 10:57:59 <prof7bit> what qt version is required for bitcoin-qt? I hope it is not the very latest bleeding edge?
1173 2011-06-26 10:58:08 <gm> sipa: i'm not actually planning on modifying bitcoin at this stage
1174 2011-06-26 10:58:22 <wump> prof7bit: it shouldn't require the bleeding edge
1175 2011-06-26 10:58:36 <sipa> gm: ok, so you don't?
1176 2011-06-26 10:58:51 <gm> sipa: haven't really tried
1177 2011-06-26 10:58:52 <wump> prof7bit: (it still might, though, but feel free to let me know if there are incompatiblities with your qt version, as long as it's not some 2005 version :P)
1178 2011-06-26 10:59:42 deSzadou has joined
1179 2011-06-26 10:59:54 <prof7bit> please make it compile with relatively old qt4, maybe set up your development machine with an older qt4.
1180 2011-06-26 11:00:03 <deSzadou> Guys if i am mining than i have to run bitcoin app too or just mining tool ?
1181 2011-06-26 11:00:04 rasengan has quit (Quit: .)
1182 2011-06-26 11:00:09 <wump> I have to rely on other people for that
1183 2011-06-26 11:00:20 <gm> deSzadou: if you're mining in a pool, just the miner
1184 2011-06-26 11:00:39 <prof7bit> a developer should not have bleeding edge libs on his machine.
1185 2011-06-26 11:00:47 <deSzadou> so i dont have to run in cmd "bitcoin -server"
1186 2011-06-26 11:00:47 <deSzadou> ?
1187 2011-06-26 11:00:49 <wump> don't tell me what I should and should not do
1188 2011-06-26 11:00:52 <wump> you're not paying me for this
1189 2011-06-26 11:01:15 <deSzadou> guys please answer me : D
1190 2011-06-26 11:01:15 <prof7bit> i just wanted to help you
1191 2011-06-26 11:01:22 El-Loco has joined
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1193 2011-06-26 11:01:26 <wump> okay, thanks then
1194 2011-06-26 11:01:27 <deSzadou> i dont have to run "bitcoin -server" in cmd if i am mining in pool?
1195 2011-06-26 11:01:31 <doublec> deSzadou: gm did asnwer you
1196 2011-06-26 11:01:32 <sipa> deSzadou: correct
1197 2011-06-26 11:01:35 <wump> you can help by testing :)
1198 2011-06-26 11:01:35 <deSzadou> great
1199 2011-06-26 11:01:37 <deSzadou> thanks guys !
1200 2011-06-26 11:02:28 <prof7bit> because i know what happens when your bug tracker is suddenly full of people who complain that it wont run on current debian stable, etc.
1201 2011-06-26 11:02:52 lumos has joined
1202 2011-06-26 11:02:54 <wump> in that case I simply port back things 
1203 2011-06-26 11:03:46 <wump> I already had a mail that some frobnotz was not compatible with qt 4.6, so I fixed it and made another user happy xD
1204 2011-06-26 11:04:17 <prof7bit> i've had the same problem with TorChat and the available python and wxpython versions on the various distributions
1205 2011-06-26 11:05:02 <prof7bit> i decided to use really old versions only to make stop people complaining
1206 2011-06-26 11:05:05 <wump> yes I've been into a lot of fights with python version incompatiblities as well :/
1207 2011-06-26 11:05:42 <wump> yea ideally you set a barrier 'Qt X.X required'.. but I'm not that far yet
1208 2011-06-26 11:05:56 <prof7bit> until 2 years ago I even still used windows 98 to build the windows version, now i am doing this on windows xp
1209 2011-06-26 11:06:52 <wump> hehe
1210 2011-06-26 11:07:20 <prof7bit> and now have sporadic complaints again about missing win98 compatibility! imagine! 2011!
1211 2011-06-26 11:07:36 <wump> windows xp is the last windows version I touched, so I  tend to have the inverse problem
1212 2011-06-26 11:08:07 <wump> lol, yes especially in China windows 98 is still being used
1213 2011-06-26 11:09:00 <prof7bit> until now it seems everything I build on XP runs just fine on vista and 7, so i will keep using winxp for a long time
1214 2011-06-26 11:10:32 <wump> yes that's a safe bet
1215 2011-06-26 11:10:45 <sipa> wump: which OS do you use?
1216 2011-06-26 11:10:49 <sipa> to develop
1217 2011-06-26 11:11:04 <b4epoche> OSX
1218 2011-06-26 11:11:07 <wump> ubuntu on my desktop and kubuntu on my laptop
1219 2011-06-26 11:11:13 <prof7bit> unless i really badly need some bleeding edge feature of some bleeding edge api (what actually never hapopens) i can happily live with linking against old stuff
1220 2011-06-26 11:11:46 <sipa> b4epoche: have you built bitcoin from source there yet?
1221 2011-06-26 11:12:07 <b4epoche> sure...  b4epoche = ericmock.
1222 2011-06-26 11:12:21 Choko has joined
1223 2011-06-26 11:12:26 <sipa> ah!
1224 2011-06-26 11:12:41 <b4epoche> trying out a new IRC client and a new nick ;-)
1225 2011-06-26 11:12:55 <sipa> b4epoche: care to try to build autotools-based bitcoin?
1226 2011-06-26 11:13:03 <wump> prof7bit: with Python I usually tend to write to the newest version docs, then fallback where needed for older versions. But for a static language like c++ that's a bit harder :/
1227 2011-06-26 11:13:10 k^^ has joined
1228 2011-06-26 11:13:25 <b4epoche> sure, I tried b4 but it died during configure
1229 2011-06-26 11:13:37 <sipa> oh, it didn't change
1230 2011-06-26 11:13:38 <sipa> so nvm
1231 2011-06-26 11:14:30 ericmock has quit (Quit: ericmock)
1232 2011-06-26 11:16:24 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1233 2011-06-26 11:16:35 <Choko> according to the block format the nonce is only 4 bytes, this will mean at some time when the difficulty is sufficient large there will be a great chance that no nonce exists for a new block? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
1234 2011-06-26 11:16:51 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1235 2011-06-26 11:17:08 <sipa> there is a second nonce inside the coinbase transaction
1236 2011-06-26 11:17:13 <sipa> of arbitrary size
1237 2011-06-26 11:17:30 <sipa> otherwise an 5970 would run out of nonces every 5s
1238 2011-06-26 11:17:52 <Choko> exactly my thought
1239 2011-06-26 11:18:30 <sipa> so, that's not a problem
1240 2011-06-26 11:22:29 <sipa> b4epoche: what was the problem again, exactly?
1241 2011-06-26 11:22:57 <b4epoche> I was wondering that myself ;-)
1242 2011-06-26 11:23:00 <b4epoche> I can't remember
1243 2011-06-26 11:24:51 <b4epoche> I can try again.  but it doesn't look like I have the files anymore.  URL?
1244 2011-06-26 11:25:40 <sipa> https://github.com/jaromil/bitcoin/commits/autotools3
1245 2011-06-26 11:27:37 stuhood has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1246 2011-06-26 11:28:10 <b4epoche> command sequence?  autoconf, automake?
1247 2011-06-26 11:28:43 <sipa> autoreconf -i, autoconf, configure, make
1248 2011-06-26 11:29:37 lumos has joined
1249 2011-06-26 11:29:57 <b4epoche> ah, right:
1250 2011-06-26 11:29:58 <b4epoche> ./configure: line 7126: syntax error near unexpected token `SSL,'
1251 2011-06-26 11:29:58 <b4epoche> ./configure: line 7126: `PKG_CHECK_MODULES(SSL, libssl >= 0.9, :,'
1252 2011-06-26 11:30:47 <sipa> ;;later tell jaromil b4epoche had problem with autotools on OSX: './configure: line 7126: syntax error near unexpected token `SSL,'', './configure: line 7126: `PKG_CHECK_MODULES(SSL, libssl >= 0.9, :,''
1253 2011-06-26 11:30:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1254 2011-06-26 11:30:49 slush1 has joined
1255 2011-06-26 11:30:57 <prof7bit> does anybody know what is the current state of the private key encryption in the official client? is this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/232 the current state of the discussion or are there alternatives? how is the progress on this?
1256 2011-06-26 11:31:09 <sipa> prof7bit: BlueMatt is working on a rewrite
1257 2011-06-26 11:32:46 wardearia has joined
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1274 2011-06-26 11:43:50 <minus> mining on the testnet is so much more fun
1275 2011-06-26 11:43:57 <minus> i actually generate blocks!
1276 2011-06-26 11:44:01 Justasic has joined
1277 2011-06-26 11:44:03 Justasic has quit (Excess Flood)
1278 2011-06-26 11:44:17 <minus> wtf is up with that guy
1279 2011-06-26 11:44:31 Justasic has joined
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1284 2011-06-26 11:45:36 somuchwin has joined
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1287 2011-06-26 11:46:31 Justasic has joined
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1289 2011-06-26 11:46:40 vokoda has joined
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1291 2011-06-26 11:50:09 vinsci has joined
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1293 2011-06-26 11:55:56 <zamgo> minus: try namecoin testnet.  Difficulty 1
1294 2011-06-26 11:56:02 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1295 2011-06-26 11:56:24 <b4epoche> wtf what guy?
1296 2011-06-26 11:56:25 <minus> that'd be like one block every 10 seconds
1297 2011-06-26 11:56:26 <sipa> try testnet-in-a-box
1298 2011-06-26 11:59:05 wasabi2 has joined
1299 2011-06-26 11:59:27 <pasky> can i switch my bitcoind to testnet by just enabling that option, or will that wipe out / rebuild my database and i'll have to re-download the whole blockchain again next time i switch back to normal net?
1300 2011-06-26 11:59:45 <sipa> it keeps the testnet db in a separate directory
1301 2011-06-26 12:00:48 <gm> minus: someone needs to start a testnet mining pool :P
1302 2011-06-26 12:01:17 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1303 2011-06-26 12:02:50 <prof7bit> someone needs to pay dollars for test coins
1304 2011-06-26 12:03:07 <sipa> they have been traded for real bitcoins in the past
1305 2011-06-26 12:03:35 <minus> gm: all the power of deepbit or another pool should work on the testnet for a short period of time
1306 2011-06-26 12:03:39 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1307 2011-06-26 12:03:44 <minus> probably results in 5 blocks per second
1308 2011-06-26 12:03:53 <sipa> what is tn difficulty now?
1309 2011-06-26 12:03:59 <minus> 45
1310 2011-06-26 12:04:07 <minus> wait no
1311 2011-06-26 12:04:08 <sipa> ;;bc,deepbit
1312 2011-06-26 12:04:12 <gribble> 3846942000
1313 2011-06-26 12:04:12 <minus> it was 45 yesterday
1314 2011-06-26 12:04:24 <minus> blockexplorer testnet doesnt update
1315 2011-06-26 12:04:27 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd [bc,deepbit] 22.5
1316 2011-06-26 12:04:28 <gribble> Error: '0.025120411007' is not a valid integer.
1317 2011-06-26 12:04:30 <minus> *didn't, since yesterady
1318 2011-06-26 12:04:44 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 3846942000 22.5
1319 2011-06-26 12:04:45 <gribble> Error: '0.025120411007' is not a valid integer.
1320 2011-06-26 12:04:49 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 3846942000
1321 2011-06-26 12:04:50 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1322 2011-06-26 12:05:56 <gm> minus: i sat here hammering 400 megahashes at it, made 250 btc in 10 mins or so
1323 2011-06-26 12:06:21 <minus> yeah, i'm at like 1200BTC now
1324 2011-06-26 12:11:56 <kinlo> how can I see when a block is generated?
1325 2011-06-26 12:12:24 <lfm> kinlo: watch ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
1326 2011-06-26 12:13:42 falafell has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1327 2011-06-26 12:13:51 falafell has joined
1328 2011-06-26 12:14:29 <kinlo> is there a way to do it trough rpc?
1329 2011-06-26 12:14:45 <sipa> listtransactions shows generations
1330 2011-06-26 12:15:16 <kinlo> yeah but there is no usable timestamp in listtransactions
1331 2011-06-26 12:15:16 <lfm> kinlo try the getgetblockcountcommand
1332 2011-06-26 12:15:20 <lfm> kinlo try the getgetblockcount command
1333 2011-06-26 12:15:28 <minus> getblockcount
1334 2011-06-26 12:15:39 <lfm> ya what he sed
1335 2011-06-26 12:15:44 <kinlo> :)
1336 2011-06-26 12:15:51 <kinlo> lemme try that
1337 2011-06-26 12:16:02 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1338 2011-06-26 12:16:02 <gribble> 133362
1339 2011-06-26 12:16:15 <kinlo> mmmz
1340 2011-06-26 12:16:50 <kinlo> no, see, what I would like to do is to get the exact time that I've generated a block, but not at this moment, but afterwards
1341 2011-06-26 12:16:56 <kinlo> and exact time = up to the second
1342 2011-06-26 12:17:03 <kinlo> so now I'm using listtransactions
1343 2011-06-26 12:17:13 <lfm> kino grep generated ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
1344 2011-06-26 12:17:23 <sipa> debug.log doesn't contain timestamps
1345 2011-06-26 12:17:33 <lfm> yes it does!
1346 2011-06-26 12:17:36 <kinlo> but listtransactions shows the time in the header from the block, which is incorrect
1347 2011-06-26 12:17:46 <lfm> the generated messages have a date and time
1348 2011-06-26 12:17:59 <sipa> kinlo: how so?
1349 2011-06-26 12:18:06 <kinlo> lfm: 06/20/11 12:00 generated 50.00
1350 2011-06-26 12:18:15 <lfm> exactly
1351 2011-06-26 12:18:16 <kinlo> lfm: that does not contain seconds
1352 2011-06-26 12:18:24 <kinlo> and is a hell to parse :)
1353 2011-06-26 12:18:30 <sipa> why is time in the header of the block incorrect?
1354 2011-06-26 12:18:32 <unclemantis> what is the neatest paper bitcoin solution you have all seen?
1355 2011-06-26 12:18:45 <lfm> well you only have 1 block in 10 min, the seconds dont matter
1356 2011-06-26 12:18:46 <sipa> unclemantis: bitbills ?
1357 2011-06-26 12:19:12 <kinlo> sipa: your worker does getwork, it contains a timestamp, then works for minutes, submits the block with that old timestamp and then the block is found
1358 2011-06-26 12:19:14 <unclemantis> i did some research and there are some homebrew solutions based on publishing the private key
1359 2011-06-26 12:19:25 <lfm> the time is always correct for the person that made it! (not)
1360 2011-06-26 12:19:37 * unclemantis still thinks it is 1999
1361 2011-06-26 12:19:39 <kinlo> so you have a delay, and I don't know how long a worker can do on a block, that might be a long time
1362 2011-06-26 12:20:02 <lfm> the year went from 1999 to 19100
1363 2011-06-26 12:20:04 <sipa> kinlo: minutes :o
1364 2011-06-26 12:20:12 <unclemantis> egad!
1365 2011-06-26 12:20:16 <sipa> you should get new work every few seconds
1366 2011-06-26 12:20:17 <unclemantis> I'm late!
1367 2011-06-26 12:20:35 <kinlo> sipa: can I trust this to be correct? :)
1368 2011-06-26 12:20:37 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1369 2011-06-26 12:20:49 <sipa> how do you mean?
1370 2011-06-26 12:21:11 <lfm> does anyone really know what time it is?
1371 2011-06-26 12:21:24 <lfm> does anybody care?
1372 2011-06-26 12:21:30 <sipa> 12:20 GMT
1373 2011-06-26 12:21:30 <kinlo> if you do not trust your workers, can you trust the time from those workers?
1374 2011-06-26 12:21:42 <sipa> kinlo: workers do not set the time themselves, the pool does
1375 2011-06-26 12:21:54 <sipa> unless using X-Roll-Ntime
1376 2011-06-26 12:22:06 <lfm> well the workers should be allowed to change the time
1377 2011-06-26 12:22:17 <sipa> yes, that's what X-Roll-Ntime is for
1378 2011-06-26 12:22:40 <lfm> sipa huh? why cant they just change it?
1379 2011-06-26 12:22:54 <sipa> some pools don't accept client-modified ntime
1380 2011-06-26 12:23:03 <lfm> so they are wrong
1381 2011-06-26 12:23:04 <sipa> i agree clients should be allowed to
1382 2011-06-26 12:23:19 <sipa> but it's up to pools to decide what they accept, no?
1383 2011-06-26 12:23:32 <lfm> ya, but they are wrong
1384 2011-06-26 12:23:38 <sipa> they're not wrong
1385 2011-06-26 12:23:46 <sipa> they may be stupid
1386 2011-06-26 12:24:09 <lfm> theyre changing the getwork protocol that the standard client uses
1387 2011-06-26 12:24:40 <sipa> i never read a specification of getwork that states what or what not clients are allowed to change
1388 2011-06-26 12:24:40 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1389 2011-06-26 12:24:46 <lfm> so they're incompatible with the standard, I call that wrong
1390 2011-06-26 12:24:47 * unclemantis is still waiting for an iphone wallet
1391 2011-06-26 12:24:50 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1392 2011-06-26 12:25:02 <lfm> it is implied standard
1393 2011-06-26 12:25:07 <unclemantis> either an rpc client like my bank uses, or a bitcoin app on the phone iteself
1394 2011-06-26 12:25:08 <sipa> i disagree :)
1395 2011-06-26 12:25:32 vinsci has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1396 2011-06-26 12:25:39 <lfm> sipa ok so you are wrong too then
1397 2011-06-26 12:26:28 <sipa> afaik no miner except poclbm in very early versions did change ntime on itself, and that was changed because pools didn't support it
1398 2011-06-26 12:26:40 <sipa> without any written specification of the standard, it is defined by its common usage
1399 2011-06-26 12:26:56 <lfm> diablo miner changed the time in some early version too
1400 2011-06-26 12:27:03 <sipa> that's possible
1401 2011-06-26 12:27:10 <lfm> it is an unwriten standard
1402 2011-06-26 12:27:14 <lfm> de-facto
1403 2011-06-26 12:27:58 <sipa> de-facto = from the facts :)
1404 2011-06-26 12:28:23 <lfm> when there is differences between some yob of a pool operator and the "standard" bitcoin the standard defines the standard by definition
1405 2011-06-26 12:28:29 <minus> hm, the RPC interface is pretty complicated, wouldnt it be easier to just use something like SQL?
1406 2011-06-26 12:28:39 <sipa> minus: explain?
1407 2011-06-26 12:28:39 * unclemantis looks at clock "15 minutes and still at 0/unconfirmed
1408 2011-06-26 12:28:54 <lfm> minus shut up! :-)
1409 2011-06-26 12:28:56 <minus> so you can custom-select what you want
1410 2011-06-26 12:29:14 <minus> or nosql, i'm not exactlly sure
1411 2011-06-26 12:29:18 <sipa> minus: those have completely different use cases
1412 2011-06-26 12:29:31 <sipa> the rpc interface is for much more than inspecting the wallet
1413 2011-06-26 12:29:49 <lfm> anyway it is feined by a standard for C and C++
1414 2011-06-26 12:30:26 <minus> SELECT * FROM transactions WHERE block_num > 133000
1415 2011-06-26 12:30:45 <minus> would be super useful for me
1416 2011-06-26 12:30:48 <lfm> minus and it sends you 100 MB?
1417 2011-06-26 12:31:06 <minus> that' not the point lfm
1418 2011-06-26 12:31:18 <b4epoche> there we go, replace bdb with sqlite
1419 2011-06-26 12:31:23 <unclemantis> 1 confirmation per blockfound right?
1420 2011-06-26 12:31:45 <minus> yeah
1421 2011-06-26 12:32:01 <b4epoche> actually, that's not a terribly stupid idea
1422 2011-06-26 12:32:06 <lfm> ya, ya, every junior programmer who looks at bitcoin has that idea, replace bdb with some sql thing or another.
1423 2011-06-26 12:32:17 suriv has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1424 2011-06-26 12:32:28 <minus> well, doesn't have to be SQL
1425 2011-06-26 12:32:41 <sipa> it's not a bad idea at all
1426 2011-06-26 12:32:43 <minus> just easier/more customized access to the DB
1427 2011-06-26 12:32:47 <b4epoche> it would be nice to inspect databases's outside of bitcoin
1428 2011-06-26 12:32:50 <lfm> right it doesnt have to be sql, it can be bdb just fine
1429 2011-06-26 12:32:52 <sipa> for many application another wallet backend would be useful
1430 2011-06-26 12:32:57 <sipa> but that won't replace rpc
1431 2011-06-26 12:33:06 <minus> yes ofc
1432 2011-06-26 12:33:08 <BlueMatt> another wallet backend != move away from bdb for bitcoin
1433 2011-06-26 12:33:12 erus` has joined
1434 2011-06-26 12:33:15 <minus> but if you just need to inspect the DB
1435 2011-06-26 12:33:15 __robin__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1436 2011-06-26 12:33:32 <lfm> anyone who wants can inspect bdb databases, its not really hard
1437 2011-06-26 12:33:34 <minus> like verify if transactions you expected are in already
1438 2011-06-26 12:33:38 <sipa> ideally you have some compile-time switch to select a backend
1439 2011-06-26 12:33:42 <BlueMatt> generalize the bdb stuff in bitcoin is already somewhat done, and you can switch backend w/o doing too much
1440 2011-06-26 12:34:05 <b4epoche> lfm: you got a link to a decent frontend to bdb?
1441 2011-06-26 12:34:17 MetaV has joined
1442 2011-06-26 12:34:29 <unclemantis> 22 minutes and transaction still not confirmed, wtf
1443 2011-06-26 12:34:30 <lfm> bluematt yup, terribly easy to make it slower
1444 2011-06-26 12:34:31 <sipa> well, essentially all you need is key-value storage and transactionality
1445 2011-06-26 12:34:43 <minus> what i'd need is easy access to specific data from php
1446 2011-06-26 12:34:44 <sipa> that's not hard to port
1447 2011-06-26 12:34:46 suriv has joined
1448 2011-06-26 12:34:58 <sipa> minus: aren't there any bitcoin php libraries that talk rpc?
1449 2011-06-26 12:35:14 <BlueMatt> lfm: yep, but its also not terribly hard to make it faster (and less secure from data pov)
1450 2011-06-26 12:35:15 <minus> well jsonrpcclient does fine
1451 2011-06-26 12:35:22 Faraday has joined
1452 2011-06-26 12:35:33 <minus> but the rpc api doesnt offer what i specifically need
1453 2011-06-26 12:35:56 <lfm> bluemattya take out all those pesky syncs?
1454 2011-06-26 12:36:01 <BlueMatt> yep
1455 2011-06-26 12:36:04 <BlueMatt> ;)
1456 2011-06-26 12:36:18 <minus> the current plan: write simple python bitcoin network client with nice query api
1457 2011-06-26 12:36:27 <b4epoche> interesting:  http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/seltzer-berkeleydb-sql-086752.html
1458 2011-06-26 12:37:23 <unclemantis> serious question guys. It is only supposed to take around 5 to 10 minutes for a bitcoin to show it's first confirmation right? it has been 30 minutes and it still shows as zero. I have 39 connections and i am on block 133362
1459 2011-06-26 12:37:33 <wump> no sql in bitcoin please, we've had our share of sql injections already in this ecosystem :-)
1460 2011-06-26 12:37:43 <lfm> oracle db! great idea, you should get to work on that right away. It would be much faster, all you need is a $30000 server for it
1461 2011-06-26 12:37:53 m00p has joined
1462 2011-06-26 12:37:56 <minus> unclemantis: your transaction has to be in a block to get confirmed
1463 2011-06-26 12:38:00 <b4epoche> lfm:  read
1464 2011-06-26 12:38:21 <minus> if it doesnt make it into a block because it doesnt have a fee or whatever then it's bad luck for you
1465 2011-06-26 12:38:28 <wump> lfm: hey, to be fair, bdb was eaten by oracle too
1466 2011-06-26 12:38:59 <unclemantis> minus so how long will this take?
1467 2011-06-26 12:39:06 <minus> no idea
1468 2011-06-26 12:39:07 __robin__ has joined
1469 2011-06-26 12:39:10 <erus`> no knifes because we have had our fair share of stabbings
1470 2011-06-26 12:39:11 <unclemantis> right
1471 2011-06-26 12:39:12 <b4epoche> was just going to have him see where berkeleydb.com points
1472 2011-06-26 12:39:13 <lfm> wump who said anything about being fair!
1473 2011-06-26 12:39:24 <erus`> no everything because we have had our fair share of deaths
1474 2011-06-26 12:39:57 <b4epoche> unclemantis:  difficulty changed recently, no?
1475 2011-06-26 12:40:33 <lfm> ;;bc,diff
1476 2011-06-26 12:40:34 <gribble> 1379223.4296725
1477 2011-06-26 12:40:46 <b4epoche> maybe block generation slowdown overshot 10 min
1478 2011-06-26 12:40:47 <lfm> yetrday I think it wa
1479 2011-06-26 12:40:49 <sipa> it's been almost 50 minutes since the last block
1480 2011-06-26 12:40:58 <unclemantis> wow
1481 2011-06-26 12:41:11 <minus> crazy
1482 2011-06-26 12:41:12 <b4epoche> and miners bailing
1483 2011-06-26 12:41:16 <unclemantis> i saw 2 blocks being generated back to back the other day on that visual explorer
1484 2011-06-26 12:41:18 <BlueMatt> not too surprising
1485 2011-06-26 12:41:26 <BlueMatt> as diff increases, this kind of thing becomes more common
1486 2011-06-26 12:41:29 <unclemantis> miners are bailing because it is too hard? whaaa whaa!
1487 2011-06-26 12:41:33 <minus> b4epoche: no wonder looking at what the reward for mining is
1488 2011-06-26 12:41:36 <wump> it's sunday, miners are on strike today
1489 2011-06-26 12:41:42 <unclemantis> LOL!!!!
1490 2011-06-26 12:41:49 <unclemantis> Sabbath of the Watt
1491 2011-06-26 12:41:54 <lfm> it is exactly what is to be expected
1492 2011-06-26 12:41:54 <b4epoche> damn, they've unionized!!!
1493 2011-06-26 12:41:55 <wump> indeed
1494 2011-06-26 12:41:55 <minus> network hashrate is at 10.1Thash/s
1495 2011-06-26 12:42:00 <minus> that's not low
1496 2011-06-26 12:42:05 <prof7bit> sql does not automatically mean sql inections. especially not if you are using a static language where you cannot just abuse a variable that is supposed to store a certain type into a string that can hold arbitrary sql commands
1497 2011-06-26 12:42:07 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
1498 2011-06-26 12:42:08 <gribble> 11019.988046442439
1499 2011-06-26 12:42:18 <unclemantis> now THAT would force people to not work on the sabbath day. Shut down the currency!
1500 2011-06-26 12:42:21 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 11019000000 50m
1501 2011-06-26 12:42:22 <gribble> 0.996229118628
1502 2011-06-26 12:42:30 <BlueMatt> iirc, stddev == diff, thus as hashrate/diff increases, so does how often this kind of thing happens
1503 2011-06-26 12:42:30 <wump> prof7bit: I know, I was just kidding and echo-chambering current sentiment :)
1504 2011-06-26 12:42:44 <minus> prof7bit: prepared statements ♥
1505 2011-06-26 12:42:53 <unclemantis> There is a website i went to the other month or so and it was on a sunday. They said they are closed on a sunday and come back tomorrow. A website that takes a day off. that was great
1506 2011-06-26 12:43:03 <wump> but honestly I don't think we need anything as complicated as SQL
1507 2011-06-26 12:43:17 <sipa> ok, 0.4%... still expected to happen once every 250 times
1508 2011-06-26 12:43:25 <wump> minus: +1
1509 2011-06-26 12:43:43 <wump> there's not that much wrong with sql, just with programmatically writing it
1510 2011-06-26 12:43:57 <sipa> are there people still using string interpolation in sql queries? ;)
1511 2011-06-26 12:44:03 * sipa never did
1512 2011-06-26 12:44:03 <wump> too many people
1513 2011-06-26 12:44:09 <prof7bit> probably no db layer is needed at all.
1514 2011-06-26 12:44:11 <lfm> wump so why would we need anything more complicated than bdb?
1515 2011-06-26 12:44:24 <wump> lfm: uhm I'm not saying that at all
1516 2011-06-26 12:44:36 <lfm> oh, you agree with me then
1517 2011-06-26 12:44:44 <minus> sql injections ♥
1518 2011-06-26 12:44:45 <wump> I've continuously arguing against sql
1519 2011-06-26 12:44:52 <unclemantis> i just transfered .05 and it cost me .00005 btc
1520 2011-06-26 12:45:02 <prof7bit> the pragmatic programmer is using simple file formats that serve the intended purpose.
1521 2011-06-26 12:45:06 <erus`> everyone used couchdb these days anyway
1522 2011-06-26 12:45:06 <lfm> unclemantis: thats good
1523 2011-06-26 12:45:11 <unclemantis> they should make the fee variable, like a fedex package
1524 2011-06-26 12:45:12 <sipa> unclemantis: 0.0005 :)
1525 2011-06-26 12:45:13 <minus> bitcoin randomizr was robbed that way, bitcoinpool aswell (months ago)
1526 2011-06-26 12:45:19 <sipa> unclemantis: we intend to
1527 2011-06-26 12:45:23 <unclemantis> sipa oh what ever. I can't count
1528 2011-06-26 12:45:25 <wump> bdb is good enough for bitcoin, there's really no reason to change that
1529 2011-06-26 12:45:26 <b4epoche> blkindex.xml ftw!
1530 2011-06-26 12:45:28 <sipa> actually, it is variable
1531 2011-06-26 12:45:41 <sipa> unclemantis: it's only the minimum fee that isn't flexible (enough) yet
1532 2011-06-26 12:45:44 <unclemantis> sipa you know what i mean
1533 2011-06-26 12:46:07 <wump> xml :')
1534 2011-06-26 12:46:18 <b4epoche> it would be nice to be able get at the data easier with other interfaces
1535 2011-06-26 12:46:27 <lfm> wump but every junior programmer fresh outa school thinks sql is the only way to make a database
1536 2011-06-26 12:46:30 <wump> talk about unneeded complication
1537 2011-06-26 12:46:39 <unclemantis> i see high volume transactions get passed. The people that have 8 million dollars backing that btc must be biting their fingers watching the confirmations
1538 2011-06-26 12:48:06 <sipa> unclemantis: i've never had to pay any fee, and have never had a transaction that didn't confirm
1539 2011-06-26 12:48:18 <sipa> it's only very small amounts and very young coins that are in danger
1540 2011-06-26 12:48:37 <prof7bit> young coins?
1541 2011-06-26 12:48:47 <lfm> I once paid a fee of over 3.00 BTC, back when btc were worth $0.06
1542 2011-06-26 12:48:47 __robin__ has quit (Quit: __robin__)
1543 2011-06-26 12:48:50 <unclemantis> if the client is offline that i am sending TO would it still confirm?
1544 2011-06-26 12:48:57 <sipa> unclemantis: yes
1545 2011-06-26 12:48:57 __robin__ has joined
1546 2011-06-26 12:49:05 <sipa> that's completely irrelevant
1547 2011-06-26 12:49:11 <unclemantis> well the transaction is not showing up
1548 2011-06-26 12:49:13 <sipa> you're not sending to a client, you're sending to an address
1549 2011-06-26 12:49:33 <sipa> just wait till it is confirmed, then he'll definitely see it
1550 2011-06-26 12:49:43 <unclemantis> it has been 45 minutes
1551 2011-06-26 12:49:45 <pasky> (actually, you are not even sending to an address, just saying that who owns this address can claim N bitcoins coming out from this transaction)
1552 2011-06-26 12:49:56 <sipa> unclemantis: if there is no block, there is no confirmation possible
1553 2011-06-26 12:50:02 <lfm> unclemantis: the receiver of a txn is not the one that confirms it. The bitcoin NET itself confoirms your TXN
1554 2011-06-26 12:50:04 <sipa> that just happens, it's statistics
1555 2011-06-26 12:50:22 <unclemantis> sipa ok so this is normal at times?
1556 2011-06-26 12:50:30 <sipa> unclemantis: it's unlikely, but it happens
1557 2011-06-26 12:51:05 <unclemantis> great.....
1558 2011-06-26 12:51:18 <sipa> just wait an hour, no worries, it'll be confirmed
1559 2011-06-26 12:51:29 <unclemantis> when i send a bitcoin, do i need t stay online until the first confirmed or can i close out of the application?
1560 2011-06-26 12:51:30 <prof7bit> there is a new block
1561 2011-06-26 12:51:37 <prof7bit> wait a few seconds
1562 2011-06-26 12:51:50 <lfm> "normal" is to wait 6 blocks to be confirmed, so that is nominally 1 hour and it varies randomly
1563 2011-06-26 12:52:08 <unclemantis> lfm well right now we are going on 1 block an hour
1564 2011-06-26 12:52:28 <minus> was it found now?
1565 2011-06-26 12:52:37 <minus> my client shows 133363 blocks
1566 2011-06-26 12:53:06 <minus> the client has way too little vorbose features :/
1567 2011-06-26 12:53:39 <sipa> unclemantis: we're not
1568 2011-06-26 12:53:50 <sipa> it's just bad luck that the last block took so long
1569 2011-06-26 12:53:56 <lfm> carefull how you count your blocks, there is a block #0 there, some people count it and some dont
1570 2011-06-26 12:54:03 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1571 2011-06-26 12:54:03 <gribble> 133363
1572 2011-06-26 12:54:07 <minus> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000006518D435D2509D8CB30AD335A1C8CDD81A367B6E2A4FA2A51B1
1573 2011-06-26 12:54:11 <minus> not there yet
1574 2011-06-26 12:54:16 <sipa> unclemantis: and you don't need to stay online
1575 2011-06-26 12:54:17 <coderrr> any pointers on extracting the btc address out of the txout of a generation transaction ?
1576 2011-06-26 12:54:18 <minus> but that should be it
1577 2011-06-26 12:54:57 <prof7bit> 133363 showed up here 3 minutes ago
1578 2011-06-26 12:55:02 <lfm> Block #133363 2011-06-26 12:49:10 so ya it is new
1579 2011-06-26 12:55:03 <unclemantis> maybe there are just a lot of transactions gong on prepairing for the mtgox
1580 2011-06-26 12:55:39 <prof7bit> doesn't influnece the time it takes to make a new block
1581 2011-06-26 12:56:20 <lfm> 75 txn in that block
1582 2011-06-26 12:57:09 <coderrr> the script on the output of a generation tx seems to be diff than the scripts on normal txs
1583 2011-06-26 12:57:17 <unclemantis> a miner is probably chomping away at it right now
1584 2011-06-26 12:57:18 <sipa> indeed
1585 2011-06-26 12:57:24 <lfm> coderrr: yup
1586 2011-06-26 12:57:25 <sipa> generation script are pay-to-pubkey
1587 2011-06-26 12:57:33 <sipa> normal transactions are pay-to-address
1588 2011-06-26 12:57:34 <minus> maybe it took so long because the nonce is 4.2 billion, the int32 upper limit
1589 2011-06-26 12:57:45 <coderrr> sipa, where does block explorer get teh address from then ?
1590 2011-06-26 12:57:53 <sipa> coderrr: it hashes the pubkey :)
1591 2011-06-26 12:58:05 <sipa> minus: a 5970 explores the entire 2^32 range in a few seconds
1592 2011-06-26 12:58:09 <coderrr> ah ok, so just make a hash160 of the pubkey ?
1593 2011-06-26 12:58:13 <sipa> yes
1594 2011-06-26 12:58:14 <lfm> coderrr: for which one? the coinbase or regular txn?
1595 2011-06-26 12:58:19 <prof7bit> USA is waking up
1596 2011-06-26 12:58:20 <minus> sipa: ;)
1597 2011-06-26 12:58:23 <coderrr> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/3bf8573131fdbeb6b2332cfea905b63a2404647c3395c42ba9d4dba04dcce4e2#o0
1598 2011-06-26 12:58:24 <unclemantis> ha ha ha
1599 2011-06-26 12:58:26 <coderrr> lfm ^
1600 2011-06-26 12:58:49 <coderrr> trying to get duplciate To address, in the cpp code
1601 2011-06-26 12:59:00 assassindrake has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1602 2011-06-26 12:59:06 <lfm> coderrr: ya, a address is a hash160 of the pub key
1603 2011-06-26 12:59:13 <coderrr> ok cool, thx
1604 2011-06-26 12:59:45 <minus> isnt it rather ripemd160(sha256(pubkey))?
1605 2011-06-26 12:59:50 <unclemantis> the public address i sent to is not showing in the blockexplorer!
1606 2011-06-26 13:00:04 <lfm> coderrr: the base58 address is a few more steps of tricky crap
1607 2011-06-26 13:00:23 <prof7bit> blockexplorer always seems to be a bit behind
1608 2011-06-26 13:00:30 <lfm> minus: yes that is called a hash160 in bitcoin
1609 2011-06-26 13:00:36 <sipa> minus: hash160(x) = ripemd160(sha256(x))
1610 2011-06-26 13:00:48 <sipa> minus: hash256(x) = sha256(sha256(x))
1611 2011-06-26 13:01:06 assassindrake has joined
1612 2011-06-26 13:01:08 <minus> ic
1613 2011-06-26 13:01:26 <unclemantis> This is what I have on my end. Status: 0/unconfirmed Date: 6/26/2011 07:10 PT To: 1BJVmTFxUA9d9Ff2jntA8kzsEdxeq23GH7 Debit: -0.05 Transaction fee: -0.0005 Net amount: -0.0505
1614 2011-06-26 13:01:34 <lfm> unclemantis: care to tell us what address it is you are looking for?
1615 2011-06-26 13:01:46 <unclemantis> CT not PT, sorry
1616 2011-06-26 13:01:47 <lfm> oh, got it
1617 2011-06-26 13:02:58 <unclemantis> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1BJVmTFxUA9d9Ff2jntA8kzsEdxeq23GH7
1618 2011-06-26 13:03:00 <lfm> unclemantis: you're right, its not in the block chain up to block #133363
1619 2011-06-26 13:03:02 <unclemantis> see? nothing!
1620 2011-06-26 13:03:11 <prof7bit> patience
1621 2011-06-26 13:03:30 <unclemantis> prof7bit it has been close to an hour
1622 2011-06-26 13:03:39 <sipa> please, just wait another hour
1623 2011-06-26 13:03:44 <lfm> if it still not got thru in 24 hours, tell us and we will start to worry
1624 2011-06-26 13:03:48 <unclemantis> sipa a total of 2 hours?
1625 2011-06-26 13:03:52 <sipa> yeah sure
1626 2011-06-26 13:04:02 <sipa> or a few hours maybe
1627 2011-06-26 13:04:05 <minus> i see why it took so long, 38KB
1628 2011-06-26 13:04:12 <unclemantis> it is only .05 and it was a test transaction anyway
1629 2011-06-26 13:04:20 <minus> 36KBTC WTF
1630 2011-06-26 13:04:32 <sipa> unclemantis: if it was a larger amount, it would probably be faster
1631 2011-06-26 13:04:40 <lfm> a 38kb txn?? hehe with no fee? ??
1632 2011-06-26 13:04:41 <minus> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/44198c938d2bbac40e0f3c5e643497113381551dc27c3d9feb36dabe3074c675
1633 2011-06-26 13:04:44 <sipa> minus: size or amount or irrelevent for generation transactions?
1634 2011-06-26 13:04:45 <prof7bit> it might be in the next block, which can come any moment now
1635 2011-06-26 13:04:49 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1636 2011-06-26 13:05:00 <lfm> oh it does have a fee
1637 2011-06-26 13:05:00 <unclemantis> ok, who is the asshole miner cashing out LOL
1638 2011-06-26 13:05:15 <sipa> ?
1639 2011-06-26 13:05:17 * unclemantis waits
1640 2011-06-26 13:05:20 <lfm> unclemantis: thats what miners do!
1641 2011-06-26 13:05:27 <unclemantis> lfm be assholes?
1642 2011-06-26 13:05:33 <lfm> cash out
1643 2011-06-26 13:05:39 <unclemantis> ;)
1644 2011-06-26 13:05:48 <lfm> no point in mining if you never cash out
1645 2011-06-26 13:06:01 * unclemantis wishes newegg accepted bitcoin
1646 2011-06-26 13:06:26 <minus> someone's been pushing around those 31kBTC
1647 2011-06-26 13:06:53 <lfm> maybe the hackers still have some btc
1648 2011-06-26 13:06:55 <coderrr> nice!  so i just needed ExtractPubKey() and PubKeyToAddress()
1649 2011-06-26 13:06:56 <coderrr> thx guys
1650 2011-06-26 13:07:19 <lfm> coderrr: have fun
1651 2011-06-26 13:07:32 <unclemantis> so ya think when mtgox opens in 2 hours that the hackers will jump on board again?
1652 2011-06-26 13:07:49 <sipa> i hope they try, and fail :)
1653 2011-06-26 13:07:54 <erus`> do you guys sit and watch the blocks all day long
1654 2011-06-26 13:08:16 <lfm> sipa but you never hear about failed hacks
1655 2011-06-26 13:08:36 <lfm> erus`: not every day
1656 2011-06-26 13:08:49 <unclemantis> when there is nothing on hulu
1657 2011-06-26 13:09:35 <lfm> and sometimes I have to make a coffee run
1658 2011-06-26 13:10:16 <sipa> lfm: so i hope not to hear about any hacks :)
1659 2011-06-26 13:10:24 <unclemantis> http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com/
1660 2011-06-26 13:10:51 <unclemantis> i just sent 0.00000001 like 30 seconds ago
1661 2011-06-26 13:11:01 <unclemantis> where the hell is it?
1662 2011-06-26 13:11:24 <lfm> unclemantis: I got it, thanks
1663 2011-06-26 13:11:30 <unclemantis> LOL
1664 2011-06-26 13:11:51 <lfm> (cheap tipper)
1665 2011-06-26 13:11:55 <prof7bit> i want some too!!!
1666 2011-06-26 13:12:00 <unclemantis> something is wrong here
1667 2011-06-26 13:12:40 <prof7bit> you need to wait for a new block. still at 133363.
1668 2011-06-26 13:13:57 <unclemantis> bitcoinmonitor.com is not in real time?
1669 2011-06-26 13:14:18 <lfm> is any time really real?
1670 2011-06-26 13:14:37 <prof7bit> time is just an illusion
1671 2011-06-26 13:14:52 <unclemantis> you guys are just funny today
1672 2011-06-26 13:14:56 <sipa> lunch time doubly so
1673 2011-06-26 13:14:58 <lfm> and bitcoinmonitor works on fantasy time
1674 2011-06-26 13:15:47 <lfm> Today is Boomtime, the 31st day of Confusion in the YOLD 3177
1675 2011-06-26 13:16:02 <unclemantis> LOL
1676 2011-06-26 13:19:11 denisx has joined
1677 2011-06-26 13:19:21 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1678 2011-06-26 13:19:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133363 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1708 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours, 48 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1443012.67620717
1679 2011-06-26 13:19:42 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
1680 2011-06-26 13:19:43 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0,"low":0,"vol":0,"buy":17.51,"sell":17.51,"last":17.51}}
1681 2011-06-26 13:19:50 Stellar has joined
1682 2011-06-26 13:19:50 <prof7bit> still the same old block
1683 2011-06-26 13:19:50 <lfm> !!
1684 2011-06-26 13:20:00 <diki> i wonder will the volume be back up?
1685 2011-06-26 13:20:08 <diki> or starting fresh?
1686 2011-06-26 13:20:18 <unclemantis> thy are starting out at zero
1687 2011-06-26 13:20:25 <unclemantis> that was from what I HEARD
1688 2011-06-26 13:20:31 <unclemantis> but then again my sources are questionable
1689 2011-06-26 13:20:34 <diki> i just hope there is no idiot out there that sets the price lower than 17.5
1690 2011-06-26 13:20:38 <diki> diki needs to sell
1691 2011-06-26 13:20:51 <denisx> anybody know what this "X-Roll-nTime" change in pushpoold is about?
1692 2011-06-26 13:21:02 <unclemantis> diki wy don't you check out tradehill?
1693 2011-06-26 13:21:20 <diki> price too low
1694 2011-06-26 13:21:26 <diki> 15 usd doesnt cut it
1695 2011-06-26 13:21:32 <lfm> denisx: thats the wrong patch for the pool bug that doesnt understand when a miner updates the timestamp
1696 2011-06-26 13:21:40 kiwiMINERS has joined
1697 2011-06-26 13:21:44 <unclemantis> it was at 19 a few days ago
1698 2011-06-26 13:21:44 <prof7bit> block!
1699 2011-06-26 13:21:52 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1700 2011-06-26 13:21:53 <gribble> 133364
1701 2011-06-26 13:21:58 <prof7bit> unclemantis: a new block is there
1702 2011-06-26 13:22:03 <unclemantis> Referral Code: TH-R12545
1703 2011-06-26 13:22:10 <unclemantis> use this and save some money
1704 2011-06-26 13:22:12 <diki> blocks?
1705 2011-06-26 13:22:27 <unclemantis> prof7bit i still show 0/unconfirmed on both test transactions
1706 2011-06-26 13:22:31 <denisx> lfm: what means wrong patch?
1707 2011-06-26 13:22:41 <unclemantis> both going to 1BJVmTFxUA9d9Ff2jntA8kzsEdxeq23GH7
1708 2011-06-26 13:22:43 <denisx> does it not work?
1709 2011-06-26 13:23:00 <prof7bit> and you had fee included?
1710 2011-06-26 13:23:09 <diki> ok this does it
1711 2011-06-26 13:23:10 <lfm> denisx: he is trying to fix it the wrong way
1712 2011-06-26 13:23:15 <diki> nero and vmware dont like each other
1713 2011-06-26 13:23:17 <diki> fuck this
1714 2011-06-26 13:23:24 <diki> 3 dvd discs all ruined
1715 2011-06-26 13:23:27 <diki> fuck you vmware
1716 2011-06-26 13:23:28 <unclemantis> nero is an ass
1717 2011-06-26 13:23:32 <unclemantis> fuck you nero
1718 2011-06-26 13:23:37 <diki> just crashed on me
1719 2011-06-26 13:23:39 <diki> again
1720 2011-06-26 13:23:40 <unclemantis> i use poweriso and power2go
1721 2011-06-26 13:23:41 <diki> 79%
1722 2011-06-26 13:24:02 <minus> so there's actually people still burning disks?
1723 2011-06-26 13:24:16 erus` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1724 2011-06-26 13:24:19 <diki> just a wedding diki neads to make copies of
1725 2011-06-26 13:24:28 <diki> fuck..it's *needs
1726 2011-06-26 13:24:28 <lfm> minus why not?
1727 2011-06-26 13:24:40 erus` has joined
1728 2011-06-26 13:24:47 <unclemantis> why does anyone want to make a copy of a wedding?
1729 2011-06-26 13:24:53 <prof7bit> lol
1730 2011-06-26 13:24:55 <unclemantis> once the original has happened people try and forget!
1731 2011-06-26 13:25:03 <diki> so that it's sent to the divorced couple
1732 2011-06-26 13:25:06 <lfm> unclemantis: why does anyone want a wedding at all?
1733 2011-06-26 13:25:09 <unclemantis> why do you think there is so much booze at the reception!!!
1734 2011-06-26 13:25:31 <unclemantis> lfm beats me. The wife wants a REAL ONE not the county clerk crap
1735 2011-06-26 13:25:36 <unclemantis> same friggin thing to me
1736 2011-06-26 13:25:38 <lfm> well ya, its an excuse for a party
1737 2011-06-26 13:25:50 <unclemantis> lfm i will agree to you about the party
1738 2011-06-26 13:26:08 <unclemantis> but the bitching and moaning and headaches for the year coming up to it? fuck that shit
1739 2011-06-26 13:26:24 <unclemantis> wedding, the ultimate control freak
1740 2011-06-26 13:26:29 <lfm> unclemantis: she thinks county clerks arnt real? what a strange person
1741 2011-06-26 13:26:42 <prof7bit> unclemantis, what blocknumber does it show in your status bar now?
1742 2011-06-26 13:27:06 <vegard> sipa: http://folk.uio.no/vegardno/bitcoin-checksig.patch <-- any comments?
1743 2011-06-26 13:27:13 erus` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1744 2011-06-26 13:27:20 <unclemantis> bingo
1745 2011-06-26 13:27:25 <unclemantis> first confirm for that first transaction
1746 2011-06-26 13:27:33 * unclemantis is going to kill a miner today
1747 2011-06-26 13:27:53 <lfm> and another one down
1748 2011-06-26 13:28:15 <denisx> mtgox opens in 90min, yes?
1749 2011-06-26 13:28:28 <unclemantis> supposed to
1750 2011-06-26 13:28:34 <unclemantis> they said that yesterday, and the day before
1751 2011-06-26 13:28:48 <unclemantis> I think they are milking it for all they can
1752 2011-06-26 13:29:02 <denisx> milking what?
1753 2011-06-26 13:29:16 <unclemantis> I think they shut the whole thing down on purpose to gain intrest on everyone's deposits
1754 2011-06-26 13:29:34 <vegard> you don't think they would have gained more from the trading fees?
1755 2011-06-26 13:29:35 <unclemantis> Maybe Matt had to pay for a wedding
1756 2011-06-26 13:29:51 <unclemantis> had to do something quickly and the wife was over his shoulder about it
1757 2011-06-26 13:30:00 <unclemantis> this was the plan from a woman!
1758 2011-06-26 13:30:00 <lfm> unclemantis: so no news is bad news, the whole hack was just a publicity stunt?
1759 2011-06-26 13:30:14 <unclemantis> lfm i would not doubt that one bit
1760 2011-06-26 13:30:24 <unclemantis> and possibly get the feds off our backs
1761 2011-06-26 13:30:29 <unclemantis> and to keep the rift raffs out
1762 2011-06-26 13:30:36 <unclemantis> not for the faint of heart
1763 2011-06-26 13:30:45 <unclemantis> as i am finding this out LOL
1764 2011-06-26 13:31:00 <lfm> I thot publicity was to attract MORE rifraf!?
1765 2011-06-26 13:32:09 oozyburglar has joined
1766 2011-06-26 13:32:47 <unclemantis> lfm strange world we live in
1767 2011-06-26 13:34:27 <b4epoche> eh, strange world /you/ live in
1768 2011-06-26 13:34:41 <b4epoche>  /I/ understand it completely
1769 2011-06-26 13:35:14 <unclemantis> i am now using the wallet.dat that the transaction is supposed to appear
1770 2011-06-26 13:35:24 * unclemantis waits ANOTHER BLOCK
1771 2011-06-26 13:35:45 * unclemantis hates cricket
1772 2011-06-26 13:35:46 * unclemantis hates crickets
1773 2011-06-26 13:36:19 * b4epoche listens to crickets every night on his iPhone (with Ambience)
1774 2011-06-26 13:36:19 deSzadou has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1775 2011-06-26 13:36:56 <prof7bit> the difficulty adjustment interval is based on block counts, not on time, right?
1776 2011-06-26 13:37:06 <sipa> on both
1777 2011-06-26 13:37:27 <sipa> it looks at the time the previous series of 2016 blocks took, and corrects based on the proportion
1778 2011-06-26 13:38:02 <prof7bit> but it waits 2016 blocks, even if mining capacity fell significantly so it would take ages?
1779 2011-06-26 13:38:21 xtalmath has joined
1780 2011-06-26 13:38:33 <sipa> yes
1781 2011-06-26 13:39:03 <b4epoche> so how does time come in?
1782 2011-06-26 13:39:32 <sipa> blocks have a timestamp
1783 2011-06-26 13:39:52 Gonzago has joined
1784 2011-06-26 13:40:04 * unclemantis stamps a big red VOID over the last block
1785 2011-06-26 13:40:17 <prof7bit> this might be a weakness, if mining capacity would go down fast for some reason it would not ajdust fast enough and even more miners could lose their patience.
1786 2011-06-26 13:40:33 <vegard> sipa: sorry to be bothering you. did you see the patch above that is supposed to fix the checksig problem?
1787 2011-06-26 13:40:35 <b4epoche> cascade of miner deaths
1788 2011-06-26 13:40:55 <unclemantis> will the difficuly level DROP?
1789 2011-06-26 13:41:06 <b4epoche> seems like there should be a time limit on difficulty adjustments
1790 2011-06-26 13:41:08 <minus> prof7bit: quite true
1791 2011-06-26 13:41:17 <minus> 2016 blocks is a long time
1792 2011-06-26 13:41:21 <sipa> b4epoche: but you can't agree on a time
1793 2011-06-26 13:41:41 <minus> hm 2 weeks
1794 2011-06-26 13:41:42 <b4epoche> you?
1795 2011-06-26 13:41:46 <b4epoche> we?
1796 2011-06-26 13:41:56 <sipa> the network can't agree on a global clock
1797 2011-06-26 13:42:11 <b4epoche> seconds since last change?
1798 2011-06-26 13:42:39 <sipa> you could say of course: if the timestamp of previous block is more than two weeks after the timestamp of the previous retarget, do a new retarget immediately
1799 2011-06-26 13:42:42 tonykay has joined
1800 2011-06-26 13:42:47 <minus> well why not adjust the difficulty for each block
1801 2011-06-26 13:42:47 <b4epoche> or is last change time not 'stored'
1802 2011-06-26 13:42:48 <sipa> but you can't say "after two weeks, retarget"
1803 2011-06-26 13:42:59 tonykay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1804 2011-06-26 13:43:10 <minus> like a sliding window
1805 2011-06-26 13:43:14 <sipa> yes indeed
1806 2011-06-26 13:43:23 tonykay has joined
1807 2011-06-26 13:43:26 <sipa> it's probably hard to specify that formally using only integer arithmetic
1808 2011-06-26 13:43:30 <sipa> but definitely doable
1809 2011-06-26 13:44:32 <lfm> if you change the difficulty MORE often it is easier to hack it
1810 2011-06-26 13:44:35 <prof7bit> blocks would still be found (only slower) and the last block's timestamp would be regarded as the current time for such decisions
1811 2011-06-26 13:45:11 <sipa> lfm: i'd say something like adjust with 2016th root of proportion (time taken for past 2016 blocks)/(2 weeks)
1812 2011-06-26 13:45:16 <prof7bit> and if this "current time" > last_adjustment_time then adjust
1813 2011-06-26 13:45:35 <prof7bit> last_adjustment_time + something
1814 2011-06-26 13:46:46 * unclemantis chomps away on his cron
1815 2011-06-26 13:46:56 <vegard> does anybody have any tips on testing code changes? :-/ what do you do, testnet-in-a-box? virtual machine?
1816 2011-06-26 13:47:14 <lfm> vegard: yes
1817 2011-06-26 13:47:15 <sipa> vegard: yes, i'm not that familiar with the details of scripting system, but the code looks good to me
1818 2011-06-26 13:47:18 * unclemantis is having fun with testnet-in-a-box
1819 2011-06-26 13:47:29 <sipa> testnet-in-a-box tests
1820 2011-06-26 13:47:34 <xtalmath> For those people running bitcoin on linux: could one make a new "user group" which only allows bitcoin to run, and set the wallet.dat file read permission to bitcoin (or your server if you host a bitcoin website)?
1821 2011-06-26 13:47:48 <xtalmath> or is that again security through obscurity?
1822 2011-06-26 13:47:52 ionspin has joined
1823 2011-06-26 13:47:54 tonykay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1824 2011-06-26 13:48:03 <vegard> sipa: oh, thanks! I'll try to test it, then submit...
1825 2011-06-26 13:48:17 <minus> what's testnet-in-a-box? a private testnet?
1826 2011-06-26 13:48:24 <xtalmath> i guess that would need kernel level privilege esccalation?
1827 2011-06-26 13:48:28 <prof7bit> should be secure as long as the attacker cannot get root privileges
1828 2011-06-26 13:48:38 <lfm> xtalmath: dont try to read the wallet.dat , use the rpc interface
1829 2011-06-26 13:48:56 <denisx> ist that time correct? 26/06/2011 15:46:49, long poll: new block 0000023c873df4a9
1830 2011-06-26 13:49:09 <xtalmath> lfm: but then a program with non root but user mode privileges could simply read wallet.dat?
1831 2011-06-26 13:49:36 <prof7bit> this is european summer time
1832 2011-06-26 13:49:41 <xtalmath> lfm: i dont need another program to access wallet.dat
1833 2011-06-26 13:50:32 <lfm> xtalmath: rpc uses a username/password
1834 2011-06-26 13:50:38 <xtalmath> and also, how exactly do I do this? i am not that familiar with linux yet...
1835 2011-06-26 13:51:06 <gm> xtalmath: set it in bitcoin.conf
1836 2011-06-26 13:51:32 <gm> server = 1
1837 2011-06-26 13:51:36 <gm> rpcuser = somebody
1838 2011-06-26 13:51:43 <gm> rpcpassword = password
1839 2011-06-26 13:51:51 <gm> rpcallowip = 127.0.0.1
1840 2011-06-26 13:51:56 <gm> rpcport = 8332
1841 2011-06-26 13:51:58 <xtalmath> lfm: yes before bitcoin allows you to use the wallet.dat, I am thinking about the "adobe flash script 0day" kind of thing, where the proces that tries to read wallet.dat is DIFFERENT from bitcoin
1842 2011-06-26 13:52:16 <xtalmath> but does not have root permissions
1843 2011-06-26 13:52:23 <gm> so if you stick it in it's own user, you'd only be able to interact with it via RPC
1844 2011-06-26 13:52:29 <gm> and not steal wallet.dat
1845 2011-06-26 13:52:42 <lfm> gm exactly
1846 2011-06-26 13:52:44 <xtalmath> so how does one go about sticking it in its user?
1847 2011-06-26 13:52:59 <gm> well to start with: adduser bitcoin
1848 2011-06-26 13:52:59 <gm> :P
1849 2011-06-26 13:53:05 <xtalmath> is this explained somewhere in the wiki?
1850 2011-06-26 13:53:07 <ionspin> useradd -m -s /bin/bash username
1851 2011-06-26 13:53:15 <ionspin> then sudo passwd username
1852 2011-06-26 13:53:19 <ionspin> and set password
1853 2011-06-26 13:53:25 <ionspin> and sudo su username to become that user
1854 2011-06-26 13:53:28 <lfm> xtalmath: no, it is in "linux admin for dummies"
1855 2011-06-26 13:53:29 <gm> you wouldn't want a password
1856 2011-06-26 13:53:35 <ionspin> im not sure about -s i always confuse that
1857 2011-06-26 13:53:36 <xtalmath> and on ubuntu that would be?
1858 2011-06-26 13:53:40 <gm> chown bitcoin ./bitcoin
1859 2011-06-26 13:53:48 <gm> chmod 4755 ./bitcoin
1860 2011-06-26 13:53:56 <xtalmath> lfm: I must admit I never looked up linux admin for dummies
1861 2011-06-26 13:54:18 <ionspin> gm true, wasn't thinking
1862 2011-06-26 13:54:36 <gm> logging in as that account wouldn't be desirable
1863 2011-06-26 13:54:58 <gm> then i guess you could use selinux to further lock things down
1864 2011-06-26 13:55:11 <xtalmath> yes, I just meant to have a specific application access wallet.dat (bitcoin client of course)
1865 2011-06-26 13:55:11 <gm> and write a client that prompts you for the RPC user/password and doesn't store it
1866 2011-06-26 13:55:30 <lfm> and put the machine it runs on in a locked room
1867 2011-06-26 13:55:38 peterhil has joined
1868 2011-06-26 13:55:42 <xtalmath> so the point where you tell OS that bitcoin client only may access it is "chown bitcoin ./bitcoin" ?
1869 2011-06-26 13:55:48 <lfm> and put and armed guard by the door
1870 2011-06-26 13:55:54 <ionspin> its actually the approach android takes, each app is run by a different uid
1871 2011-06-26 13:56:22 <ionspin> xtalmath, yeas
1872 2011-06-26 13:56:23 <xtalmath> what if another application on the file system is also called bitcoin? one should be able to point at the specific client location no?
1873 2011-06-26 13:56:40 <ionspin> but you should also set chmod with 0600 on wallet.dat
1874 2011-06-26 13:56:44 <xtalmath> and have that client location be read only by normal users
1875 2011-06-26 13:57:00 <xtalmath> why 0600 instead of 4755?
1876 2011-06-26 13:57:01 <ionspin> no that sjhould be readable at all for anyone else
1877 2011-06-26 13:57:11 <ionspin> shouldn't
1878 2011-06-26 13:57:14 <ionspin> damn fingers
1879 2011-06-26 13:57:29 <xtalmath> ionspin: then how can a user start bitcoin if the client can not be executed?
1880 2011-06-26 13:57:48 <xtalmath> ah I see
1881 2011-06-26 13:57:53 <ionspin> user bitcoin, is going to start the bitcoind, as this user has read rights on wallet dat youre safe
1882 2011-06-26 13:57:55 <xtalmath> dumb of me
1883 2011-06-26 13:58:12 <ionspin> don't worry, you'll get the hang of things
1884 2011-06-26 13:58:17 <lfm> android doesnt use selinux tho afaik
1885 2011-06-26 13:58:22 <gm> xtalmath: 4755 on ./bitcoin, 0600 on wallet.dat
1886 2011-06-26 13:58:23 <ionspin> no no it doesnt
1887 2011-06-26 13:58:48 <gm> 4755 is SUID = runs as the user it's owned by regardless of who started it
1888 2011-06-26 13:58:51 <ionspin> lfm, its a hybrid sandbox, weird mojo security model :) Hadn;t researched it much
1889 2011-06-26 13:58:51 <xtalmath> gm: whats the reasoning behind it?
1890 2011-06-26 13:58:58 <minus> chown root bitcoin; chmod u+s bitcoin; fuck yeah!
1891 2011-06-26 13:59:19 <unclemantis> fuck ya!
1892 2011-06-26 13:59:22 <unclemantis> woooo!!!
1893 2011-06-26 13:59:22 <gm> xtalmath: well you want it to run as the user bitcoin
1894 2011-06-26 13:59:27 <unclemantis> paydirt muthafer!!!
1895 2011-06-26 13:59:31 <gm> suid it so it always does
1896 2011-06-26 13:59:52 <minus> hm, suiding bitcoin..
1897 2011-06-26 13:59:52 <lfm> unclemantis: your txn went thru finally?
1898 2011-06-26 14:00:16 <vegard> so if I use -datadir= it won't touch my ~/.bitcoin ?
1899 2011-06-26 14:00:19 <lfm> minus ya, I wouldnt
1900 2011-06-26 14:00:20 <xtalmath> ok since people are giving different lists of commands can we make a pastebin of the full sequence?
1901 2011-06-26 14:01:15 <minus> sudo would be better i guess
1902 2011-06-26 14:01:31 <lfm> or just take up a colection to buy "Linux Admin for Dummies" for xtalmath
1903 2011-06-26 14:02:42 <prof7bit> if you simply make a new user with for example the name "charlie" and then SUID charlie the binary and then start it it should use the settings in /home/charlie/.bitcoin/
1904 2011-06-26 14:03:13 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1905 2011-06-26 14:03:39 <prof7bit> and the wallet.dat in this directory should be owned by charlie and be chmod 0600
1906 2011-06-26 14:03:57 <lfm> dont need to setuid it, just sudo -u charlie bitcoind
1907 2011-06-26 14:04:09 <prof7bit> yes, also possible.
1908 2011-06-26 14:04:29 B0g4r7 has joined
1909 2011-06-26 14:04:47 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1910 2011-06-26 14:05:25 <minus> sudo -H -u charlie bitcoind
1911 2011-06-26 14:05:44 <minus> because you want it to use charlie's home directory
1912 2011-06-26 14:05:56 <lfm> whats -H do?
1913 2011-06-26 14:06:31 <lfm> oh, ya ok
1914 2011-06-26 14:07:47 TheZimm has quit (away!~TheZimm@c-98-226-5-69.hsd1.il.comcast.net|Excess Flood)
1915 2011-06-26 14:07:50 <minus> i've set up a bunch of buildbots, that's why i'm a burnt child on that one
1916 2011-06-26 14:07:52 TheZimm has joined
1917 2011-06-26 14:08:42 <vegard> testnet block generation is still pretty slow on my cpu :(
1918 2011-06-26 14:09:09 <minus> that's because im mining so fast :P
1919 2011-06-26 14:09:21 <lfm> another possible way is to use crontab "@reboot" line to automaticlly run starting at each boot
1920 2011-06-26 14:09:22 <vegard> private testnet ;)
1921 2011-06-26 14:09:22 <minus> ok, the latest block took 20 minutes
1922 2011-06-26 14:09:28 <minus> uhm, the latest one i mined
1923 2011-06-26 14:09:35 <xtalmath> http://pastebin.com/DCdwEVtN this makes sense???
1924 2011-06-26 14:09:38 yellowhat has joined
1925 2011-06-26 14:09:40 <vegard> testnet-in-a-box is really nice.
1926 2011-06-26 14:09:52 <minus> vegard: you can have coins for the public testnet if you need some
1927 2011-06-26 14:10:26 <vegard> oh. how fast are blocks generated on the public testnet? I might just try that instead
1928 2011-06-26 14:10:28 <xtalmath> it would be nice if you could agree on a standard set of commands to do this, and have you guys discuss the best way to do it...
1929 2011-06-26 14:11:17 <lfm> xtalmath: there are servral ways to do it cuz they each do slightly different things
1930 2011-06-26 14:11:58 <minus> i feel like sending some testcoins to the test faucet so the amount adds up to 1333.37 :D
1931 2011-06-26 14:12:01 <xtalmath> lfm: with "discuss the best way to do it" I mean exactly those subtle differences and how it relates to bitcoin
1932 2011-06-26 14:12:03 <lfm> there is no "best" way cuz it depends exactly what you want to do
1933 2011-06-26 14:12:08 <b4epoche> anyone here know what vfSubscribe in net.cpp holds?
1934 2011-06-26 14:12:22 <sipa> minus: make it 1333.33333337 :)
1935 2011-06-26 14:12:34 <minus> it only shows 2 digits on the page
1936 2011-06-26 14:12:45 <minus> i dont have enough coins yet though
1937 2011-06-26 14:12:46 <b4epoche> I'm getting a EXC_BAD_ACCESS trying to access it on shutdown
1938 2011-06-26 14:12:47 <xtalmath> suppose somebody knows the linux administration for dummies by heart, but does not know the exact workings of bitcoin code,... he would not know to treat the wallet differently than the folder?
1939 2011-06-26 14:13:00 <minus> need 390.9
1940 2011-06-26 14:13:24 <b4epoche> xtalmath: Linus Admin for Dummies := Google
1941 2011-06-26 14:13:30 datagutt has joined
1942 2011-06-26 14:13:30 datagutt has quit (Changing host)
1943 2011-06-26 14:13:30 datagutt has joined
1944 2011-06-26 14:13:33 <xtalmath> lfm: "how it relates to bitcoin" would be the different goals
1945 2011-06-26 14:13:37 <b4epoche> Linux
1946 2011-06-26 14:14:04 <b4epoche> although I suppose you can also use Google to admin Linus
1947 2011-06-26 14:14:07 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1948 2011-06-26 14:14:12 <minus> i'm selling testnet bitcoins, 100testBTC for 1BTC :D
1949 2011-06-26 14:14:15 <xtalmath> b4epoche: reading that alone is not enough, since youd have to know the inner workings of bitcoin as well, I mean for users, you should explain them how to do this
1950 2011-06-26 14:14:17 <lfm> xtalmath: most people just run it in their own personal accounts and dont bother with all that
1951 2011-06-26 14:14:41 <xtalmath> lfm: and soon most users will suffer malware stealing wallets
1952 2011-06-26 14:15:30 <lfm> xtalmath: and you think some magic advice from us will prevant that?
1953 2011-06-26 14:15:37 koleg has joined
1954 2011-06-26 14:16:08 <xtalmath> lfm: better than the magic advice from Linus Admin for Dummies:=Google
1955 2011-06-26 14:16:33 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1956 2011-06-26 14:16:35 <b4epoche> once it's encrypted, what's the difference...  well, I suppose someone could rm wallet.dat
1957 2011-06-26 14:16:49 <xtalmath> its like not explaining what a hash is, just let them look at cryptography for dummies
1958 2011-06-26 14:17:14 <lfm> b4epoche: if its encrypted how do you protect the encrypion key?
1959 2011-06-26 14:17:51 <b4epoche> with a password
1960 2011-06-26 14:17:56 <prof7bit> i hope the wallet encryption makes it into the standard client soon, this would greatly reduce a lot of these horror scenarios.
1961 2011-06-26 14:18:02 <sipa> prof7bit: it will
1962 2011-06-26 14:18:09 molecular has joined
1963 2011-06-26 14:18:14 <lfm> xtalmath: ya well I spoze we could teach linux admin for dummies here but most people here would rather talk about bitcoin
1964 2011-06-26 14:18:23 <xtalmath> I mean theres quite a standard kernel providing a mechanism for assigning privileges (and Im ashamed to admit I dont know it well), so why dont we point it out more clearly on the wiki? I would if I knew what was safe and what caveats exist
1965 2011-06-26 14:18:40 * b4epoche always thought Linux users thought they were smart enough to only need one account, root
1966 2011-06-26 14:19:03 <lfm> b4epoche: the encyption key IS a password. whats to prevent the password and key and anything else you wanna name being stolen too?
1967 2011-06-26 14:19:03 <xtalmath> what arrogance
1968 2011-06-26 14:20:06 <b4epoche> lfm: what exactly are you trying to prevent?
1969 2011-06-26 14:20:15 <prof7bit> nothing prevents this. but it removes a whole class of attacks, all the "just steal the file" attacks will be removed. the wallet can be handled and moved around much easier.
1970 2011-06-26 14:20:49 <lfm> b4epoche: I am trying to see how these recomendations help? if they can get your wallet, why cant they get the key to unlock the wallet?
1971 2011-06-26 14:21:07 <sipa> depends on the attack model
1972 2011-06-26 14:21:21 <b4epoche> so you protect the key better.
1973 2011-06-26 14:21:24 <sipa> if they have admin access to your system, they'll be able to sniff/extract/dump/... the password as well
1974 2011-06-26 14:21:44 <minus> root can do ANYTHING
1975 2011-06-26 14:21:47 <sipa> but for the attack model where you put your wallet on dropbox, and some dropbox employee finds it, password protection is a very good thing
1976 2011-06-26 14:21:56 <xtalmath> I dont see how the threat model widens, by introducing wallet encryption and passphrase (keylogger and read access to wallet is still enough)
1977 2011-06-26 14:21:57 <b4epoche> sipa:  that's what I'm trying to figure out what they are trying to prevent
1978 2011-06-26 14:22:22 <lfm> sipa well dont do that!
1979 2011-06-26 14:22:26 <prof7bit> doesn't dropbox even provide a webservice where you can access it over http?
1980 2011-06-26 14:22:34 <gm> yes
1981 2011-06-26 14:22:34 <b4epoche> there will /always/ be a way to get wallet
1982 2011-06-26 14:22:36 <sipa> the main attack model is a stupid script that searches for wallet.dat and sends it to its maker, i guess
1983 2011-06-26 14:23:07 <xtalmath> prof7bit: so instead of many stupid script kiddies getting half of stealable money and few intelligent hackers having other half, itd just be all of the stealable money to intelligent hackers only => doesnt help users
1984 2011-06-26 14:23:08 <lfm> sipa ya, if they can run that script, they can install a keylogger
1985 2011-06-26 14:23:08 aristidesfl has joined
1986 2011-06-26 14:23:16 <sipa> lfm: i agree
1987 2011-06-26 14:23:22 <sipa> it doesn't fix everything
1988 2011-06-26 14:23:31 mosimo has joined
1989 2011-06-26 14:23:38 <minus> I XOR my wallet 2(!) times with 0x00 before I upload it!
1990 2011-06-26 14:23:49 <sipa> i use quadruple rot13
1991 2011-06-26 14:24:04 <minus> damn, you're the chief
1992 2011-06-26 14:24:33 <sipa> http://xkcd.com/538/
1993 2011-06-26 14:25:06 <xtalmath> I think these things will never really widen the threat model, some people who hate security through cryptography will start publishing scripts to bypass all these security in the open, to force us to find a real solution
1994 2011-06-26 14:25:08 <xtalmath> like smart cards
1995 2011-06-26 14:25:09 <b4epoche> doesn't even have to click that link
1996 2011-06-26 14:25:23 <prof7bit> xtalmath: the numbers are wrong, its not half and half, its more like 99.999% script kiddies and 99.999% of the money and 0.001% hackers targeting 1% of the 0.001% of the rest
1997 2011-06-26 14:25:47 <lfm> I want security for my wallet when I publish my root password on my facebook status
1998 2011-06-26 14:25:54 <b4epoche> foil the keylogger but including lots of <delete>'s in password ;-)
1999 2011-06-26 14:26:03 <xtalmath> prof7bit: no user cares about initial distribution
2000 2011-06-26 14:26:25 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2001 2011-06-26 14:26:26 <b4epoche> s/but/by
2002 2011-06-26 14:26:26 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rec3787479535 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/RatingSystem/ (plugin.py test.py): RatingSystem: add link to wot explorer to getrating output. http://tinyurl.com/5unydwp
2003 2011-06-26 14:26:30 <lfm> and I want someone I can sue if I lose my wallet
2004 2011-06-26 14:26:35 <xtalmath> the hacker that steals money, will just get what the scriptkiddies cant do anymore because theyre confused
2005 2011-06-26 14:26:54 erus` has joined
2006 2011-06-26 14:27:40 <prof7bit> the *likelihood* of any random user having his wallet stolen will drop *dramatically* when all the script kiddies are out of the game.
2007 2011-06-26 14:28:14 <xtalmath> no, it will make it more profitable for the knowledgeable and already trying to steal hackers
2008 2011-06-26 14:28:31 <xtalmath> you cant deny its security through obscurity
2009 2011-06-26 14:28:40 <xtalmath> im not saying it doesnt work
2010 2011-06-26 14:29:04 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2011 2011-06-26 14:29:05 <lfm> prof7bit: well all you need than is move your -confdir to a directory name somewhere else, not ~/.bitcoin
2012 2011-06-26 14:29:09 <b4epoche> what's obscure if everyone knows the wallet is encrypted?
2013 2011-06-26 14:29:09 <xtalmath> but it only works if everyone writes his own obscurity, not if its a standard wallet encryption
2014 2011-06-26 14:29:22 <prof7bit> no, the knowledgable hackers will also suffer. they would not refuse to take a wallet only because no root exploit is needed.
2015 2011-06-26 14:29:59 <xtalmath> ?
2016 2011-06-26 14:30:23 <b4epoche> TODO for next bitcoin release, stash the data in a random place in directory (preferably not in /tmp though)
2017 2011-06-26 14:30:26 <prof7bit> the knowledgeable hackers currently take all money, the easy money and the difficult to get money
2018 2011-06-26 14:30:28 <xtalmath> he justs wants the money, like the script kiddies, but he just knows his way better
2019 2011-06-26 14:30:31 <lfm> prof7bit: hold on a few minutes while I parse that!
2020 2011-06-26 14:30:58 <xtalmath> prof7bit: then you agree that the wallet encryption doesnt help
2021 2011-06-26 14:31:27 <xtalmath> since these guys already know how to install keyloggers and how to do privilege escalation
2022 2011-06-26 14:31:33 <lfm> xtalmath: it helps us cuz people will demand it whether it helps or not
2023 2011-06-26 14:31:38 <b4epoche> wallet encryption /does/ help...
2024 2011-06-26 14:31:58 <prof7bit> no. it greatly reduces the number of people who are able to steal my money.
2025 2011-06-26 14:32:24 <b4epoche> exactly...
2026 2011-06-26 14:32:39 <lfm> seems to me script kiddies are not baffled by keyloggers
2027 2011-06-26 14:32:40 <prof7bit> currently every script kiddie can steal my money, soon it needs an experienced dedicated hacker
2028 2011-06-26 14:32:43 <b4epoche> it puts constraints on the space of attacks
2029 2011-06-26 14:32:51 <xtalmath> and lfm: "I want security for my wallet when I publish my root password on my facebook status" "and I want someone I can sue if I lose my wallet" I understand that viewpoint: but you are sharing the coin with a lot of users who DONT know their way around, if they all lose trust someday, your BTC lowers in value too! it is a responsibility to yourself to make sure others treat their bitcoins safely
2030 2011-06-26 14:33:19 __robin__ is now known as robin__
2031 2011-06-26 14:33:19 <b4epoche> not just script kiddies...  but nosey wives and girlfriends can now steal wallet
2032 2011-06-26 14:34:18 <lfm> ah yes, true, some people think it is a good idea for their freinds, wives, and girlfreinds to know their passwords
2033 2011-06-26 14:34:24 <prof7bit> exactly. currently its the equivalent of pining all the dollar bills to the fridge with magnets.
2034 2011-06-26 14:35:10 <lfm> or the cookie jar with the cash everyone knows about
2035 2011-06-26 14:35:22 <prof7bit> and most people don't even lock their doors, some don't even have doors.
2036 2011-06-26 14:35:46 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.157.68|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2037 2011-06-26 14:35:59 <lfm> then there are the theives who steal computers and never change the user names or passwords
2038 2011-06-26 14:36:08 <b4epoche> or they have their computer lock after 10 minutes idle instead of 30 seconds
2039 2011-06-26 14:36:46 <lfm> oh jeez ya 30 seconds is way too annoying
2040 2011-06-26 14:37:31 <b4epoche> so I get up to go out to mow the lawn...  disgruntled wife sits down and steals your wallet
2041 2011-06-26 14:37:37 <xtalmath> 10 minutes is annoying as well
2042 2011-06-26 14:37:39 <xtalmath> :D
2043 2011-06-26 14:38:14 <lfm> b4epoche: ya, mowing lawns is a total waste of time, it just grows back again
2044 2011-06-26 14:38:44 <xtalmath> b4epoche: but thats just role play of your wife who wants to be rubberhosed *again*
2045 2011-06-26 14:38:49 * b4epoche has been trying for years to convince his wife to till up the yard and plant corn 
2046 2011-06-26 14:39:11 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2047 2011-06-26 14:39:23 <lfm> b4epoche: tell her its for the environment, grass wastes water
2048 2011-06-26 14:39:38 * b4epoche doesn't water his grass
2049 2011-06-26 14:39:55 <xtalmath> evaporation of the sea wastes water
2050 2011-06-26 14:40:05 <lfm> it sucks up your neighbor's water then and wastes it
2051 2011-06-26 14:40:29 <xtalmath> and dont forget your poisoning the grass with DHMO
2052 2011-06-26 14:40:59 <lfm> the grass stops the rainwater from reaching the sea where it is suposed to go to evaporate
2053 2011-06-26 14:41:21 * b4epoche would like to just plant dandelions to piss off the neighbors...
2054 2011-06-26 14:41:23 <JFK911> is mtgox open yet
2055 2011-06-26 14:41:48 <lfm> b4epoche: then get some beehives to make honey from the dandelions
2056 2011-06-26 14:41:59 * b4epoche can just imagine the dandelion seeds drifting all over the neighborhood
2057 2011-06-26 14:42:37 <unclemantis> JFK911 you tell us
2058 2011-06-26 14:42:47 <lfm> get a local ordinance to stop pesticide spreying for dandelions cuz it kills your bees and other living things
2059 2011-06-26 14:43:53 <JFK911> i dont know
2060 2011-06-26 14:44:14 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
2061 2011-06-26 14:44:14 <prof7bit> they said 1500 UTC, not earlier
2062 2011-06-26 14:44:15 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0,"low":0,"vol":0,"buy":17.51,"sell":17.51,"last":17.51}}
2063 2011-06-26 14:44:24 <lfm> no action yet
2064 2011-06-26 14:44:34 <prof7bit> its 1443 UTC
2065 2011-06-26 14:44:37 Rictoo_ is now known as Rictoo
2066 2011-06-26 14:45:55 BlueMattBot has joined
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2068 2011-06-26 14:45:59 BlueMattBot has joined
2069 2011-06-26 14:47:40 cronopio has joined
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2071 2011-06-26 14:48:57 Lenovo01 has joined
2072 2011-06-26 14:49:58 Lenovo01 has left ()
2073 2011-06-26 14:49:59 <pasky> hmm, is it known issue that generated coins are not assigned to accounts properly?
2074 2011-06-26 14:50:11 <xtalmath> ?
2075 2011-06-26 14:50:12 <sipa> yes
2076 2011-06-26 14:50:18 k^^ has quit (Quit: pLop!)
2077 2011-06-26 14:50:18 <sipa> there's even a patch for it
2078 2011-06-26 14:50:23 <pasky> hmm it seems even intentional
2079 2011-06-26 14:50:26 <pasky> weird
2080 2011-06-26 14:50:34 <JFK911> lol what
2081 2011-06-26 14:50:41 <xtalmath> can somebody tell me what this is about?
2082 2011-06-26 14:50:46 <sipa> it dates from the time that all generations were assigned to new addresses anyway
2083 2011-06-26 14:51:02 <sipa> so it was a shortcut while implementing to not check for memberschip to accounts
2084 2011-06-26 14:51:19 <xtalmath> membership to accounts?
2085 2011-06-26 14:51:40 <pasky> sipa: yeah, but i'm mining at eligius... ;)
2086 2011-06-26 14:51:44 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained
2087 2011-06-26 14:51:59 <pasky> sipa: i can see no pull request related to this, do you remember where did you see the patch?
2088 2011-06-26 14:52:28 <xtalmath> well I thought accounts (addressess) were just hashes of public keys, so what is meant with "not assigned to accounts properly" ? the miner himself chooses the address no?
2089 2011-06-26 14:53:28 <sipa> pasky: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/295
2090 2011-06-26 14:53:40 <sipa> pasky: now i remember, i need to review it properly
2091 2011-06-26 14:53:51 <sipa> xtalmath: accounts are not addresses, read the wiki page
2092 2011-06-26 14:53:57 <xtalmath> or areI jst found out
2093 2011-06-26 14:54:24 <erus`> sipa do you have a job?
2094 2011-06-26 14:54:27 lumos has joined
2095 2011-06-26 14:54:45 <xtalmath> woops, i meant, I never really toyed with rpc part, so accounts is a bit more for merchants, or people who supply services to different people, not really for users
2096 2011-06-26 14:54:50 <pasky> sipa: oh right it's closed
2097 2011-06-26 14:57:08 <lfm> xtalmath: but everyone is "users"
2098 2011-06-26 14:57:35 <pasky> sipa: i'll try to update it for multiple txouts
2099 2011-06-26 14:59:32 <pasky> (maybe... need to re-check how much of a blocker this is for me)
2100 2011-06-26 15:00:59 <prof7bit> accounts feature is used if you want to do what mtgox did.
2101 2011-06-26 15:02:03 Obehsh has joined
2102 2011-06-26 15:03:55 <xtalmath> lfm: you know what I mean, ... gui
2103 2011-06-26 15:04:05 redixx has joined
2104 2011-06-26 15:04:13 Carandiru has joined
2105 2011-06-26 15:05:42 <prof7bit> accounts are for bitcoin banks. note how it says the account can even become negative.
2106 2011-06-26 15:06:05 JRWR has joined
2107 2011-06-26 15:07:19 karnac has joined
2108 2011-06-26 15:07:37 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2109 2011-06-26 15:07:58 <lfm> prof7bit: more than just banks
2110 2011-06-26 15:08:49 <prof7bit> yes, i know. everything that needs to manage money from several users
2111 2011-06-26 15:09:30 vinsci has joined
2112 2011-06-26 15:11:13 redixx is now known as reddixx
2113 2011-06-26 15:12:24 erus` has joined
2114 2011-06-26 15:15:00 <prof7bit> mtgox: MySQL error, please retry later
2115 2011-06-26 15:15:33 <minus> yay, my sql injection succeeded
2116 2011-06-26 15:16:30 <prof7bit> delete * from users;
2117 2011-06-26 15:16:32 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2118 2011-06-26 15:16:55 El-Loco has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2119 2011-06-26 15:17:06 <minus> DROP DATABASE mtgox; actually
2120 2011-06-26 15:17:09 Mononofu has joined
2121 2011-06-26 15:17:29 <prof7bit> but maybe its still recorded in the accounts of the botcoin wallet ;-)
2122 2011-06-26 15:17:38 <prof7bit> the big wallet
2123 2011-06-26 15:17:59 <sipa> important people don't make backups, but put their data online and let the world mirror it :)
2124 2011-06-26 15:19:37 <pasky> in coinbase fields
2125 2011-06-26 15:20:00 <dubbz82> hrm
2126 2011-06-26 15:20:06 <dubbz82> mtgox needs to pull their site online
2127 2011-06-26 15:20:10 <dubbz82> so i can abuse their API
2128 2011-06-26 15:20:22 kiba has joined
2129 2011-06-26 15:20:34 <dubbz82> i'm aware of the tradehill one, but i was gonna scribble up something
2130 2011-06-26 15:20:37 <dubbz82> that pulls from both
2131 2011-06-26 15:20:38 <kiba> hello
2132 2011-06-26 15:20:40 <dubbz82> and finds an average.
2133 2011-06-26 15:21:03 <lfm> dubbz82: dont find average, find margins
2134 2011-06-26 15:21:33 <dubbz82> someone else was saying the same thing
2135 2011-06-26 15:21:46 <dubbz82> it wouldn't be a bad idea either...but i can't do either of those
2136 2011-06-26 15:21:54 Krepta3k has joined
2137 2011-06-26 15:21:58 <dubbz82> until after mtgox actually comes back online and fixes their shit
2138 2011-06-26 15:22:02 <Krepta3k> Hello, can anyone here help me?
2139 2011-06-26 15:22:44 <b4epoche> see a psychiatrist
2140 2011-06-26 15:22:52 <dubbz82> :D
2141 2011-06-26 15:23:22 <Krepta3k> lol, no, I need a shrink for my bitcoins, my brain shrink can wait for later.
2142 2011-06-26 15:24:07 <b4epoche> I can help you shrink your bitcoin stack...  let me get my address
2143 2011-06-26 15:24:41 <prof7bit> i'm waiting for the first dealer to come up with the idea of trading BTC/USD on margin (leverage up to 500 or so)
2144 2011-06-26 15:24:48 <Krepta3k> I have a bunch of transactions that absolutely will not be processed by the bitcoin network.  I've wiped out my blockchain data and downloaded the whole thing again, I've tried everything suggested to me on bitcoin forum, nothing works.  These transactions are hanging around in limbo, even the one where I sent all my remaining bitcoin money to a new wallet, which means I'm now broke. :(
2145 2011-06-26 15:25:03 <b4epoche> prof7bit:  I think hellobitcoin.com is considering that
2146 2011-06-26 15:25:43 <prof7bit> and run an MT4 server to attract the masses of forex gamblers and hobby algo traders
2147 2011-06-26 15:25:48 <b4epoche> Krepta3k:  looks like someone beat me to shrinking your bitcoins
2148 2011-06-26 15:26:16 <b4epoche> but, sorry, I can't really help you...  I'm not a protocol expert
2149 2011-06-26 15:26:35 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2150 2011-06-26 15:26:46 <Krepta3k> lol, b4epoche, I did it to myself I guess.  Now some guy says my balance is irrelevant, I can still spend money, even though my bitcoin client says I can't, which makes No sense to me.
2151 2011-06-26 15:27:36 <Krepta3k> And why do I have 50 connections?
2152 2011-06-26 15:27:47 <Krepta3k> *sigh*
2153 2011-06-26 15:27:54 <Krepta3k> Should I just reinstall bitcoin?!
2154 2011-06-26 15:28:12 GuitarJJ has joined
2155 2011-06-26 15:28:41 <Krepta3k> What if I restore an old wallet backup?
2156 2011-06-26 15:28:59 GuitarJJ has quit (Client Quit)
2157 2011-06-26 15:29:11 <minus> maxconnections=10
2158 2011-06-26 15:29:32 <prof7bit> since they leveraged commodity trading for poor people (less than 100k net worth) in the US effective after July, 15th a lot of people will want to try new things now
2159 2011-06-26 15:29:36 koleg has joined
2160 2011-06-26 15:29:40 <prof7bit> they banned*
2161 2011-06-26 15:30:17 <Krepta3k> why the ban, hurting too many people?
2162 2011-06-26 15:30:18 syke1911 has joined
2163 2011-06-26 15:30:39 <prof7bit> they don't want small guys to buy paper gold and get rich
2164 2011-06-26 15:30:55 <prof7bit> only rich people are now allowed to speculate
2165 2011-06-26 15:31:09 <minus> u.s. fucking a?
2166 2011-06-26 15:31:16 <Krepta3k> bah, paper gold is stupid anyway, what if the people that sold you the paper go belly up?  Where's your gold then?!
2167 2011-06-26 15:31:21 <prof7bit> it to "protect" the consumers
2168 2011-06-26 15:31:25 pyros1 has joined
2169 2011-06-26 15:31:33 Beremaat has joined
2170 2011-06-26 15:31:57 sytse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2171 2011-06-26 15:32:01 <wump> oh yeah, "protect the consumers", very believable and selflessly of course
2172 2011-06-26 15:32:06 sytse has joined
2173 2011-06-26 15:32:11 <prof7bit> you don't buy it as an investment, you use it to trade and/or to hedge
2174 2011-06-26 15:32:37 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2175 2011-06-26 15:33:29 <prof7bit> i got an email from oanda, telling me i will soon be able to move my account to their european division so i can continue scalping my paper silver.
2176 2011-06-26 15:34:37 <prof7bit> because i am not from the US :-) I will still be allowed :-)
2177 2011-06-26 15:35:27 zapnap has joined
2178 2011-06-26 15:35:32 GuitarJJ has joined
2179 2011-06-26 15:35:40 <Krepta3k> Whether you buy it to trade, or to invest, it's still paper backed by what guarantees?  Again, what if they go belly up?  Where's the gold?
2180 2011-06-26 15:35:53 <b4epoche> the big, big boys got tired of fleecing the little boys so they've weeded them out and can focus on fleecing the big boys
2181 2011-06-26 15:35:58 GuitarJJ has quit (Client Quit)
2182 2011-06-26 15:36:13 <Krepta3k> That's what they love to do, fleece and screw anyone they can.
2183 2011-06-26 15:36:26 <prof7bit> i don't need the gold, only the price difference between buying and selling
2184 2011-06-26 15:36:39 <Krepta3k> oh.
2185 2011-06-26 15:36:58 <prof7bit> intra day gambling
2186 2011-06-26 15:37:01 <Krepta3k> Well, anyway, I'm too poor to do that stuff anyway, so, it doesn't matter to me how it works.
2187 2011-06-26 15:37:31 <Krepta3k> Why does it take such a long time for the bitcoin UI to come up?
2188 2011-06-26 15:37:35 <prof7bit> not exactly gambling in the strict sense, there is the possibility to have an edge
2189 2011-06-26 15:37:56 <Krepta3k> I wish it would Show me what is going on.  A splash screen that shows what is loading, percentage to when the UI will be available,
2190 2011-06-26 15:37:57 sathyabhat has joined
2191 2011-06-26 15:37:58 <Krepta3k> Something!
2192 2011-06-26 15:38:26 <JFK911> the process list is something
2193 2011-06-26 15:38:28 <JFK911> look at that.
2194 2011-06-26 15:38:37 <sathyabhat> hi, would this be the right channel to ask why bitcoin client crashes on Windows 7?
2195 2011-06-26 15:38:45 <Krepta3k> lol, yah, looking at that now.  It says stuff, sure, but When will the UI pop up?!
2196 2011-06-26 15:39:20 <Krepta3k> Uhm... I have no idea, did you look at the debug.log?
2197 2011-06-26 15:40:33 <sathyabhat> I can't seem to find debug.log, unless I'm looking at the wrong location
2198 2011-06-26 15:40:51 <sathyabhat> nev mind, found
2199 2011-06-26 15:40:56 <prof7bit> http://pastebin.com/Xuy3cF0P
2200 2011-06-26 15:41:09 <Krepta3k> I am pretty sure it's stored in %appdata%\bitcoin
2201 2011-06-26 15:42:44 The_Borg has joined
2202 2011-06-26 15:43:03 The_Borg is now known as sathyabhat_0
2203 2011-06-26 15:43:24 <sathyabhat_0> http://pastebin.com/7q2QX4Ej here's the debug.log content
2204 2011-06-26 15:43:32 <Krepta3k> lol, the Borg will assimilate us all!
2205 2011-06-26 15:43:37 <sathyabhat_0> ;)
2206 2011-06-26 15:43:45 sathyabhat_0 is now known as The_b0rg
2207 2011-06-26 15:43:55 <sipa> sathyabhat: delete your blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat
2208 2011-06-26 15:43:59 <sipa> and let them redownload
2209 2011-06-26 15:44:04 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2210 2011-06-26 15:44:15 <sipa> it looks like blk0001.dat is corrupt from that error message
2211 2011-06-26 15:44:28 <sipa> don't touch wallet.dat
2212 2011-06-26 15:44:46 <prof7bit> <sipa> and let them redownload <-- and expect a week without bitcoin
2213 2011-06-26 15:44:53 <The_b0rg> indeed, that seems to have fixed it. Thanks, sipa
2214 2011-06-26 15:45:37 sathyabhat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2215 2011-06-26 15:45:43 <Krepta3k> I have absolutely no clue what "NSt8ios_base7failureE" means.  I'm utterly unable to help. :(
2216 2011-06-26 15:46:16 <Krepta3k> sipa, you're so smart, how did you figure that one out?
2217 2011-06-26 15:46:18 <The_b0rg> Krepta3k - sipa's suggestion to delete blk0001.dat & blkindex.dat seems to have resolved it
2218 2011-06-26 15:46:24 The_b0rg is now known as SathyaBhat
2219 2011-06-26 15:46:38 <sipa> Krepta3k: because CAutoFile is only used for blk0001.dat
2220 2011-06-26 15:46:48 <Krepta3k> Well, borg/sathy, that's great news. :)
2221 2011-06-26 15:46:55 <sipa> so if an end of file is reached in that class, it's an easy guess
2222 2011-06-26 15:47:01 <Krepta3k> Oh, I'll try to remember that sipa
2223 2011-06-26 15:47:12 <SathyaBhat> indeed, Krepta3k
2224 2011-06-26 15:48:45 <kiba> did anybody was able to get bitcoind running on Deb ian Lenny?
2225 2011-06-26 15:48:51 AStove has quit ()
2226 2011-06-26 15:49:45 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2227 2011-06-26 15:49:53 <Krepta3k> Well, restoring from a very old wallet backup didn't do what I'd hoped.  Apparently there are addresses that are missing that the newer version of my wallet had generated... so, my limbo transactions are gone, Yay, but, other stuff that should be recorded in my transactions list are also missing.
2228 2011-06-26 15:50:08 <Krepta3k> So, restoring an old wallet backup is like having a different wallet!
2229 2011-06-26 15:50:27 BitMark has joined
2230 2011-06-26 15:50:44 GuitarJJ has joined
2231 2011-06-26 15:51:20 <BitMark> whats the state of testnet these days?
2232 2011-06-26 15:51:43 GuitarJJ has quit (Client Quit)
2233 2011-06-26 15:51:46 <Krepta3k> So, to summarize, restoring an old backup is not all that great.  But, and this needs to be investigated, I now have bitcoins again, which were Spent a while ago, but my current "old version" wallet doesn't know that.
2234 2011-06-26 15:51:47 <BitMark> how long does it usually take for a tx to propagate through test net?
2235 2011-06-26 15:52:13 dbasch has joined
2236 2011-06-26 15:52:17 coinage has joined
2237 2011-06-26 15:52:27 <BitMark> Krepta3k: -rescan should fix that
2238 2011-06-26 15:52:36 <Krepta3k> Ok, yay!
2239 2011-06-26 15:52:58 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
2240 2011-06-26 15:52:59 <gribble> 133383
2241 2011-06-26 15:53:22 <Krepta3k> Oh, wait, I already ran it with -rescan, so that Did Not fix it.
2242 2011-06-26 15:53:34 datagutt has joined
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2245 2011-06-26 15:53:41 <BitMark> hmmm
2246 2011-06-26 15:53:55 robin__ is now known as __robin__
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2250 2011-06-26 15:55:35 <sacarlson> bitmark: testnet is off and on sometimes it creates 50 blocks per minit other times I've waited 3 - 4 hours or more for a transaction to confirm
2251 2011-06-26 15:55:46 sipa has left ()
2252 2011-06-26 15:55:49 <BitMark> ouch
2253 2011-06-26 15:56:05 <mtrlt> mining on testnet is so easy that you should be able to confirm your own txs :P
2254 2011-06-26 15:56:15 <BitMark> got it
2255 2011-06-26 15:56:20 linagee has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2256 2011-06-26 15:56:28 <Krepta3k> Oh yah, try days, even months, with no confirmations!  That's my problem with my limbo transactions. :(
2257 2011-06-26 15:57:20 <sacarlson> BitMark: for me with a low power 300kh/sec computer it would take days to mine myself on testnet but weeds I can produce a transaction every 10 minits or so
2258 2011-06-26 15:57:24 <lfm> BitMark: Krepta3k A slow cpu miner should be able to produce a bock on tyestnet within a few days
2259 2011-06-26 15:57:33 <lfm> testnet
2260 2011-06-26 15:57:54 <lfm> but 300khps is REAL SLOW
2261 2011-06-26 15:58:07 <sacarlson> lfm: more than fast enuf on weeds net
2262 2011-06-26 15:58:13 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2263 2011-06-26 15:58:19 <BitMark> weeds?
2264 2011-06-26 15:58:25 <Krepta3k> Ah, well, I'm not on testnet, or mining either.
2265 2011-06-26 15:58:51 <lfm> ya difficulty on testnet is about 45. thats like a single GPU mining on the WHOLE NET
2266 2011-06-26 15:58:51 OVerLoRDI has joined
2267 2011-06-26 15:59:05 <OVerLoRDI> any word on the new mtgox mess, forum is a garbage pile of flaming
2268 2011-06-26 15:59:12 <BitMark> what are weeds?
2269 2011-06-26 15:59:23 <sacarlson> BitMark: you would have to modify bitcoin to use the weeds block or try freecoin
2270 2011-06-26 15:59:27 <lfm> if I add my cheap 5770 GPU it practicly double the hash speed of the whole net
2271 2011-06-26 15:59:40 linagee has joined
2272 2011-06-26 16:00:05 <BitMark> but what is weeds?
2273 2011-06-26 16:00:06 <sacarlson> lfm: well cheap for you is like expensive here in Thailand
2274 2011-06-26 16:00:06  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-18-67.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
2275 2011-06-26 16:00:12 GuitarJJ has joined
2276 2011-06-26 16:00:30 <lfm> sacarlson: $120 here
2277 2011-06-26 16:00:53 <sacarlson> lfm: that's my rent for the month in an expensive apartment on the beach
2278 2011-06-26 16:01:22 <BitMark> dang i need to move to Thailand
2279 2011-06-26 16:01:43 jmpespxoreax has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2280 2011-06-26 16:02:12 <BitMark> i think i had thai food for lunch everyday last week
2281 2011-06-26 16:02:19 <sacarlson> BitMark: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9493.0  is an article and weeds and the branch of bitcoins at https://github.com/sacarlson/freecoin supports weeds
2282 2011-06-26 16:03:17 <GuitarJJ> come on, gox
2283 2011-06-26 16:03:17 TheZimm has quit (Quit: SLEEPING)
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2285 2011-06-26 16:03:46 <lfm> sacarlson: get a cheaper apt and buy a gpu
2286 2011-06-26 16:04:00 <lfm> no one needs to live on the beach
2287 2011-06-26 16:04:19 <sacarlson> lfm: why when all I need do is run a different network?
2288 2011-06-26 16:04:26 <sacarlson> to test
2289 2011-06-26 16:04:30 phatsphere has joined
2290 2011-06-26 16:04:51 <lfm> sacarlson: I thot you were worried someone will take over your net with a gpu
2291 2011-06-26 16:05:21 <sacarlson> lfm: I don't care about my testnet who cares who takes it over,  I have people take over testnet all the time
2292 2011-06-26 16:05:24 <yorick> what does minconf do in sendfrom, and why is it not in sendtoaddress
2293 2011-06-26 16:06:10 <sacarlson> lfm: and I have another solution for micro nets with low power using licenced minners only
2294 2011-06-26 16:06:16 <lfm> yorick: its just the number of confirmation needed before it gets counted as accepted
2295 2011-06-26 16:06:25 __robin__ has quit (Quit: __robin__)
2296 2011-06-26 16:06:35 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2298 2011-06-26 16:06:36 <yorick> lfm: but for sends?!
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2301 2011-06-26 16:07:04 <lfm> yorick: ya you can only send confirmed b6tc
2302 2011-06-26 16:07:09 <sacarlson> lfm: freecoin also has default settings to release funds at 2 confirms
2303 2011-06-26 16:07:09 <lfm> btc
2304 2011-06-26 16:07:16 <BitMark> so who controls the distribution of the 10Mil weeds?
2305 2011-06-26 16:07:30 <yorick> lfm: so if you put the minconf at sendfrom lower you can send unconfirmed btcs?
2306 2011-06-26 16:07:50 <sacarlson> BitMark: the distribution is from the http://exchange.beertokens.info site
2307 2011-06-26 16:08:00 __robin__ has quit (Client Quit)
2308 2011-06-26 16:08:04 <lfm> yorick: ya, you then risk having your send turn bad if the inputs turn bad
2309 2011-06-26 16:08:06 <sacarlson> BitMark: it's exchanged for tnbtc
2310 2011-06-26 16:08:35 <yorick> lfm: how many inputs have turned bad in total?
2311 2011-06-26 16:09:00 [Author] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2312 2011-06-26 16:09:04 <yorick> lfm: and so why doesn't sendtoaddress have it
2313 2011-06-26 16:09:07 <lfm> yorick: not many that I know of, not many people trying to double spend scam
2314 2011-06-26 16:09:08 coinage is now known as piggybank
2315 2011-06-26 16:09:23 <sacarlson> and I also released a new freecoin today that has added escrow transactions
2316 2011-06-26 16:09:30 distant187 has quit (Quit: distant187)
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2318 2011-06-26 16:10:15 <lfm> yorick: not sure, maybe just a documentation oversight
2319 2011-06-26 16:10:38 * yorick checks the source
2320 2011-06-26 16:10:41 [Author] has joined
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2322 2011-06-26 16:12:42 <BitMark> couldn't someone manipulate the supply of Leo Beer to screw with the valuation of Beertokens?
2323 2011-06-26 16:12:48 GuitarJJ has joined
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2326 2011-06-26 16:13:36 <yorick> lfm: the minconf is not passed on to sendmoneytobitcoinaddress
2327 2011-06-26 16:13:53 <yorick> lfm: sendtoaddress does not do any funds check, sendfrom does an extra one
2328 2011-06-26 16:14:10 <lfm> oh ok
2329 2011-06-26 16:14:49 <lfm> is one of them marked as depreciated
2330 2011-06-26 16:14:59 <yorick> but Wallet::SendMoneyToBitcoinAddress does a check for 6 blocks anyways
2331 2011-06-26 16:15:05 <yorick> 6 confirmations
2332 2011-06-26 16:15:12 <yorick> so the minconf value is essentially useless
2333 2011-06-26 16:15:33 <yorick> lfm: no
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2339 2011-06-26 16:16:56 <sacarlson> yorick: seems I recall minconf was tested in two or more places like user interface ui.cpp and also when minned was a differnet value and then there was one other place probly in main.cpp
2340 2011-06-26 16:17:06 RobinPKR has joined
2341 2011-06-26 16:17:13 <GuitarJJ> any status update from MagicTux?
2342 2011-06-26 16:17:30 <lfm> yorick: that 6 should prolly be changed to a minconf parameter some day
2343 2011-06-26 16:17:37 <sacarlson> GuitarJJ: I sent mtgox a claim today hope I see some of it
2344 2011-06-26 16:17:46 <copumpkin> GuitarJJ: [12:07:48 PM] <@MagicalTux> running final tests
2345 2011-06-26 16:18:06 <yorick> lfm: so there's still no way I can send coins without 6 confirmations
2346 2011-06-26 16:18:24 <lfm> yor use sendfrom?
2347 2011-06-26 16:18:26 <GuitarJJ> hmm, then i just have to be patient!
2348 2011-06-26 16:18:26 <sacarlson> lfm: since I don't use the ui.cpp user interface I was able to change it and put the values into the config file to manipulate in freecoin
2349 2011-06-26 16:18:52 <yorick> lfm: sendfrom errors out because Wallet::SendMoneyToBitcoinAddress checks for 6 confirmations anyways
2350 2011-06-26 16:19:22 <lfm> yorick: oh well wait for the 5 blocks then
2351 2011-06-26 16:19:28 <lfm> 6
2352 2011-06-26 16:19:29 <yorick> but it's automated :/
2353 2011-06-26 16:19:41 RobinPKR has quit (Client Quit)
2354 2011-06-26 16:19:45 Replayer has joined
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2356 2011-06-26 16:19:48 <lfm> ya, so automate the wait
2357 2011-06-26 16:19:49 <Raccoon> There are approx 28539 people using Bitcoin client right now.
2358 2011-06-26 16:19:51 RobinPKR has joined
2359 2011-06-26 16:19:58 <Replayer> how complicated is it to implement php which verifies that a payment has been made?
2360 2011-06-26 16:20:06 <yorick> lfm: so I'll have to poll that
2361 2011-06-26 16:20:19 <yorick> Replayer: not so difficult, if you use the blockexplorer api
2362 2011-06-26 16:20:21 <sacarlson> Raccoon: wow how did you count them?
2363 2011-06-26 16:20:21 <BlueMatt> Raccoon: where did you get this number?
2364 2011-06-26 16:20:32 <Replayer> Id rather not rely on block explorer
2365 2011-06-26 16:20:37 <Raccoon> hehe
2366 2011-06-26 16:20:38 <Replayer> in the event block explorer lies
2367 2011-06-26 16:20:46 <lfm> or dies
2368 2011-06-26 16:20:46 <Raccoon> bitcoin is open source.  review it :)
2369 2011-06-26 16:20:55 <BlueMatt> lol, ok then
2370 2011-06-26 16:20:56 <Replayer> Id be looking to do it with the json RPC
2371 2011-06-26 16:21:24 RobinPKR has quit (Client Quit)
2372 2011-06-26 16:21:34 <Raccoon> i got the number from bitcoin's bootstrap
2373 2011-06-26 16:21:35 RobinPKR has joined
2374 2011-06-26 16:22:19 <sacarlson> Replayer: there is a lib for php that does it very easily
2375 2011-06-26 16:22:29 <Replayer> or http?
2376 2011-06-26 16:22:36 <lfm> Replayer: the listreceived commands are for that
2377 2011-06-26 16:22:48 <sacarlson> Replayer: it uses the rpc interface into php
2378 2011-06-26 16:23:14 <Raccoon> All-time record concurrent client count, 31177.
2379 2011-06-26 16:25:52 eoss has joined
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2384 2011-06-26 16:33:24 <sacarlson> Raccoon: last time I check before we went to multi IRC channels we were around 3000 or so connected at a time
2385 2011-06-26 16:33:35 <Soak> hello, I'm trying to connect to bitcoind on my dedicated server (rpcallowip=clientserveradress), loading during ~20 seconds and nothing appear.. what's wrong?
2386 2011-06-26 16:34:03 Baksch has joined
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2388 2011-06-26 16:34:18 <sacarlson> soak: what platform?
2389 2011-06-26 16:34:32 bulletbill has joined
2390 2011-06-26 16:34:48 <Raccoon> sacarlson: you may have been looking at the local connection count to a specific irc server
2391 2011-06-26 16:34:52 <Raccoon> that hovers raound 3000
2392 2011-06-26 16:35:03 <Soak> sacarlson: daemon on debian 6 64bits
2393 2011-06-26 16:35:22 <Soak> client on ubuntu 10.04 LTS
2394 2011-06-26 16:35:26 DukeOfURL has joined
2395 2011-06-26 16:35:33 <sacarlson> soak: so on a command line bitcoind getinfo  what do you see?
2396 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak> root@daemon:/home/admin/bitcoin-0.3.23/bin/64# ./bitcoind getinfo
2397 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak> {
2398 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak>     "version" : 32300,
2399 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak>     "balance" : 0.00000000,
2400 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak>     "blocks" : 2000,
2401 2011-06-26 16:36:15 <Soak> etc.
2402 2011-06-26 16:36:20 <sacarlson> soak: oh I never run on different systems maybe a proxy needed?
2403 2011-06-26 16:36:55 <Soak> sacarlson: dunno
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2409 2011-06-26 16:37:55 <sacarlson> soak: I'm sure I could setup apache as a proxy to do it but it seems like a bit of a security risk at my limited experiency
2410 2011-06-26 16:38:11 zamgo has left ()
2411 2011-06-26 16:38:21 <Soak> :s
2412 2011-06-26 16:39:00 <sacarlson> soak: and there is probly settings in the config to do it also just never played with it
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2423 2011-06-26 16:48:46 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: oh, can we get a version bump?
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2450 2011-06-26 17:25:58 <dubbz82> looks like mtgox's ticker is back up
2451 2011-06-26 17:25:59 <dubbz82> https://mtgox.com/code/data/ticker.php
2452 2011-06-26 17:28:12 <dubbz82> ...wtf?
2453 2011-06-26 17:28:20 <dubbz82> there's raw code in their ticker right now O_o
2454 2011-06-26 17:28:30 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2455 2011-06-26 17:29:03 <copumpkin> huh?
2456 2011-06-26 17:29:07 <copumpkin> it always spat out json
2457 2011-06-26 17:29:10 kermit has joined
2458 2011-06-26 17:29:57 <dubbz82> before it was spitting out stuff like array lenghs
2459 2011-06-26 17:30:04 <dubbz82> *sizes even
2460 2011-06-26 17:30:17 <dubbz82> array(1) {
2461 2011-06-26 17:30:17 <dubbz82>   ["bid"]=>
2462 2011-06-26 17:30:17 <dubbz82>   array(3) {
2463 2011-06-26 17:30:17 <dubbz82>     ["min"]=>
2464 2011-06-26 17:30:17 <dubbz82>     string(7) "1751001"
2465 2011-06-26 17:30:18 <dubbz82>     ["max"]=>
2466 2011-06-26 17:30:20 <dubbz82>     string(7) "1751001"
2467 2011-06-26 17:30:22 <dubbz82>     ["Type"]=>
2468 2011-06-26 17:30:24 <dubbz82>     string(3) "bid"
2469 2011-06-26 17:30:26 <dubbz82>   }
2470 2011-06-26 17:30:30 <dubbz82> }
2471 2011-06-26 17:30:32 <dubbz82> {"ticker":{"high":17.51001,"low":17.51001,"avg":17.51001,"volume":2,"last":17.51001,"buy":17.51001,"sell":17.51001}}
2472 2011-06-26 17:30:35 RenaKunisaki has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2473 2011-06-26 17:30:37 <dubbz82> that's what pulled up when i pulled up the page a second ago, instead of just the last part.
2474 2011-06-26 17:31:05 <dubbz82> looks like it got fixed already though...heh
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2482 2011-06-26 17:33:55 * b4epoche loves hackers hacking hackers
2483 2011-06-26 17:34:06 TheZimm has joined
2484 2011-06-26 17:34:29 <dubbz82> fuck i hate the double quotation marks in the tickers though
2485 2011-06-26 17:34:41 <dubbz82> shit makes actually USING the tickers a lot harder :/
2486 2011-06-26 17:35:00 <dubbz82> escape chars in your regex n shit just for added lulz :/
2487 2011-06-26 17:35:13 <b4epoche> it's amazing how that always seems to happen... I remember stuff from mid-80's like this lulzsec-A-Team stuff...
2488 2011-06-26 17:35:55 syke1911 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2489 2011-06-26 17:36:03 <b4epoche> hows the mining going copumpkin ?
2490 2011-06-26 17:36:14 <copumpkin> made 2 btc since I started a couple of days ago
2491 2011-06-26 17:36:19 <copumpkin> it's slower than I'd like, but ah well
2492 2011-06-26 17:36:27 <copumpkin> still marginally worth it
2493 2011-06-26 17:37:40 pirrr has joined
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2495 2011-06-26 17:38:35 <dubbz82> i get the feeling that after mtgox straightens their shit out
2496 2011-06-26 17:38:36 AStove has joined
2497 2011-06-26 17:38:44 <dubbz82> it's gonna start to rise again.
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2510 2011-06-26 17:46:28 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rd468717c06c0 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/ (plugin.py test.py): Gatekeeper: use trust rather than cumulative rating for gatekeeping http://tinyurl.com/3pjrdvb
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2518 2011-06-26 17:54:39 <xtalmath> about the user priviliges: in theory the bitcoin client could check upon startup how it was called, and check that folder and wallet etc to see if these can only be read/written by bitcoin?
2519 2011-06-26 17:55:00 <xtalmath> and refuse to start up, if it cant fix the situation
2520 2011-06-26 17:55:35 <xtalmath> this way money or value could never be deposited (you cant generate an adress until bitcoin passes this selftest)
2521 2011-06-26 17:56:01 <xtalmath> this would place bitcoin security on the same footing as OS security
2522 2011-06-26 17:56:40 <xtalmath> if it was compromised the user must have used sudo to give a bad program access
2523 2011-06-26 17:56:57 <xtalmath> or the operating system was flawed
2524 2011-06-26 17:57:24 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2525 2011-06-26 17:57:50 <xtalmath> is there an equivalent to user priviliges in windows?
2526 2011-06-26 17:58:15 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: bitcoin would need to be suid bitcoin then, enh?
2527 2011-06-26 17:58:36 <ionspin> xtalmath, yeah you could do that, ssh does that if you try to use a key with wron gprivileges
2528 2011-06-26 17:59:03 <xtalmath> hmm i should read up a lot more on how user privileges work
2529 2011-06-26 17:59:20 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: selinux would lock down bitcoin very very nicely. I should write a policy.
2530 2011-06-26 18:00:26 <xtalmath> does selinux support ubuntu style user, that can gain root privilige as that user if he prepends the command with sudo?
2531 2011-06-26 18:00:48 <xtalmath> or is it classic linux either root or user
2532 2011-06-26 18:00:59 <xtalmath> or am I talking nonsense?
2533 2011-06-26 18:01:43 <gmaxwell> nonsense. :)
2534 2011-06-26 18:02:32 <gmaxwell> selinux allows you to place programs and files into classes and define rules about class transitions and class interactions.
2535 2011-06-26 18:02:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh hey you're up, see my message before i went to bed last night?
2536 2011-06-26 18:06:23 lightcode has joined
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2539 2011-06-26 18:07:02 TheZimm has quit (Quit: SLEEPING)
2540 2011-06-26 18:07:09 trend has joined
2541 2011-06-26 18:07:42 <xtalmath> i suppose selinux goes all out with propolice, ASLR (+Pax and or ExecShield?), NX bit, ... ?
2542 2011-06-26 18:08:22 TheZimm has joined
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2544 2011-06-26 18:09:17 <xtalmath> if I read a book on SELinux administration, will it also explain normal linux user privileges etc from scratch or assume this as basic prerequisites?
2545 2011-06-26 18:09:30 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2546 2011-06-26 18:09:48 TheZimm has joined
2547 2011-06-26 18:10:16 <dubbz82> so
2548 2011-06-26 18:10:26 <dubbz82> i can pull the data from mtgox via web browser
2549 2011-06-26 18:10:33 <dubbz82> but i can't pull it from within my application....
2550 2011-06-26 18:10:34 btc4beer has joined
2551 2011-06-26 18:10:36 <dubbz82> tradehill's works fine
2552 2011-06-26 18:10:39 <dubbz82> any ideas?
2553 2011-06-26 18:10:50 karnac has joined
2554 2011-06-26 18:11:56 <BlueMatt> dubbz82: #mtgox
2555 2011-06-26 18:12:08 syke1911 has joined
2556 2011-06-26 18:12:14 <dubbz82> i figured it was kinda dev related too, so i'd ask here
2557 2011-06-26 18:12:17 <dubbz82> but yea, i'll jump in there.
2558 2011-06-26 18:12:33 brunner_mobile has joined
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2560 2011-06-26 18:13:03 brunner_mobile has joined
2561 2011-06-26 18:13:06 <coderrr> anyone do a quick probabiliy calc for me?  how many addresses do you need to generate before the chance of one being a substring of another is 50%, aka one is 12Rs....Mn and one is 12Rs...M
2562 2011-06-26 18:13:14 brunner_mobile has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2563 2011-06-26 18:13:30 freakazoid has joined
2564 2011-06-26 18:13:31 <coderrr> or are they always eaxctly the same length since theyre just a hash, so that will never happen ?
2565 2011-06-26 18:13:38 brunner_mobile has joined
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2568 2011-06-26 18:14:18 <coderrr> i havent looked the base58 code but im guessing it can happen
2569 2011-06-26 18:14:36 brunner_mobile has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2570 2011-06-26 18:14:53 brunner_mobile has joined
2571 2011-06-26 18:15:01 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
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2576 2011-06-26 18:15:38 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
2577 2011-06-26 18:16:04 <prof7bit> does anybody know a website where i can see what is going on at mtgox if i dont have an account at mtgox?
2578 2011-06-26 18:16:17 <pirrr> prof7bit: #mtgoxlive
2579 2011-06-26 18:16:27 Forexmasterja has joined
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2590 2011-06-26 18:23:07 <xtalmath> coderrr: care to explain a bit more?
2591 2011-06-26 18:23:59 <xtalmath> are you trying to let customers pay, only to pretend the customer has mistyped it?
2592 2011-06-26 18:24:01 <dubbz82> fuck that, i don't wanna register so i can talk in a chat room chalked full of spam :/
2593 2011-06-26 18:24:34 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2594 2011-06-26 18:24:44 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
2595 2011-06-26 18:24:52 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2596 2011-06-26 18:24:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133402 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1669 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 22 hours, 24 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1466761.71721982
2597 2011-06-26 18:25:18 darkskiez has joined
2598 2011-06-26 18:25:39 <xtalmath> so how did mtgox solve his problems? roll back?
2599 2011-06-26 18:25:47 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2600 2011-06-26 18:26:14 <xtalmath> erm mtgox volume looks like 80BTC
2601 2011-06-26 18:26:23 DavidSJ_ has joined
2602 2011-06-26 18:26:47 <coderrr> xtalmath, lol no
2603 2011-06-26 18:26:56 <prof7bit> "please use Google Chrome to view this page" <-- no thanks. I don't need to support such utter webdesign incompetence.
2604 2011-06-26 18:27:05 <coderrr> im seeing if i can get away with doing an address inclusion check by doing "addr1;addr2;addr3".include?  addr
2605 2011-06-26 18:27:08 <coderrr> type of thing
2606 2011-06-26 18:27:14 <coderrr> rather than splitting and doin an array inclusion check
2607 2011-06-26 18:27:17 <prof7bit> this reminds me of 1995
2608 2011-06-26 18:27:23 DavidSJ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2609 2011-06-26 18:27:50 <prof7bit> it is 2011 and people still dont know how to make websites
2610 2011-06-26 18:27:53 <xtalmath> coderr: I dont get it, how would you find such addresses? how would you know their private key?
2611 2011-06-26 18:27:59 <coderrr> prof7bit, what browser are you using ?
2612 2011-06-26 18:28:00 <tcatm> prof7bit: no other browser has active support for websockets yet
2613 2011-06-26 18:28:02 marioxcc-AFK has joined
2614 2011-06-26 18:28:09 <prof7bit> i tried firefox and opera
2615 2011-06-26 18:28:11 <marioxcc-AFK> is there any doccumentation of the wallet format?
2616 2011-06-26 18:28:12 <coderrr> prof7bit, you can use safari or firefox with webscokets enabled
2617 2011-06-26 18:28:14 marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc
2618 2011-06-26 18:28:15 <marioxcc> sorry
2619 2011-06-26 18:28:21 <marioxcc> is there any doccumentation of the wallet format?
2620 2011-06-26 18:29:11 <prof7bit> i won't install a new browser just to visit a vebsite. i did not do this in 1995 and i won't do it today.
2621 2011-06-26 18:29:52 <coderrr> prof7bit, you can enbale websockets on ff
2622 2011-06-26 18:29:56 <coderrr> about:config
2623 2011-06-26 18:30:10 <prof7bit> i don't even know why a website would want to open sockets.
2624 2011-06-26 18:30:26 kreal- has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2625 2011-06-26 18:30:26 <coderrr> prof7bit, cuz its not 1995 anymore
2626 2011-06-26 18:30:39 <prof7bit> other sites can do things with javascript just fine without needing sockets.
2627 2011-06-26 18:31:16 <ionspin> prof7bit, which site?
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2630 2011-06-26 18:31:48 <marioxcc> without sockets?, that's impossible :/
2631 2011-06-26 18:31:57 <marioxcc> without extra open ports maybe
2632 2011-06-26 18:32:14 <prof7bit> so its imposible to do http requests from javascript without sockets?
2633 2011-06-26 18:32:43 <marioxcc> prof7bit: network communication is impossible without sockets
2634 2011-06-26 18:32:53 <marioxcc> that's true for javascript as much as it is for any other language
2635 2011-06-26 18:33:01 <marioxcc> unless you have a diffent understanding of "socket"
2636 2011-06-26 18:33:07 <marioxcc> you probably mean port
2637 2011-06-26 18:34:01 <prof7bit> you can do http requests with javascript, you coud do it since years, the web is full of websites doing it all over the place
2638 2011-06-26 18:34:25 <marioxcc> prof7bit: and probably, the implementation uses sockets
2639 2011-06-26 18:34:34 <prof7bit> i made an rss reader in javascript a month ago
2640 2011-06-26 18:34:58 erle- has joined
2641 2011-06-26 18:34:59 <marioxcc> 'A "socket" is a generalized interprocess communication channel.' (GNU libc documentation)
2642 2011-06-26 18:35:37 <trend> ip:port combo == socket
2643 2011-06-26 18:35:52 <trend> :)
2644 2011-06-26 18:36:55 <prof7bit> this discussion is useless. you call a high level method that does an entire http request and give it a callback to notify you upon success. nobody would mess around with sockets in javascript.
2645 2011-06-26 18:36:59 manifold_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2646 2011-06-26 18:37:23 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2647 2011-06-26 18:37:32 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2652 2011-06-26 18:37:56 <marioxcc> prof7bit: please read what you're saying
2653 2011-06-26 18:38:06 <prof7bit> look at gmail, google talk, etc, they run with firefox 2 even
2654 2011-06-26 18:38:16 <marioxcc> <prof7bit> so its imposible to do http requests from javascript without sockets?
2655 2011-06-26 18:38:21 <prof7bit> how is this possible
2656 2011-06-26 18:38:32 <marioxcc> as sockets are probably part of the implementation, the answer would be meaningless
2657 2011-06-26 18:38:37 <marioxcc> what's your point prof7bit?
2658 2011-06-26 18:38:50 <marioxcc> maybe I arrived too late at the conversation
2659 2011-06-26 18:38:56 <prof7bit> why doesn't gmail force me to use chrome?
2660 2011-06-26 18:39:20 <xtalmath> For the client side, WebSocket was to be implemented in Firefox 4, Google Chrome 4, Opera 11, and Safari 5, as well as the mobile version of Safari in iOS 4.2.[1]  However, although present, support is now disabled by default in  Firefox and Opera because of concerns over security vulnerabilities.[2][3]
2661 2011-06-26 18:39:23 <xtalmath> ^ wikipedia
2662 2011-06-26 18:39:52 <prof7bit> i have ff3 and others (like gmail) manage to do the most sophisticated things without this.
2663 2011-06-26 18:39:56 <marioxcc> please don't confuse "websocket" with just "socket"
2664 2011-06-26 18:39:58 <xtalmath> i think theres a difference between sockets and websocket
2665 2011-06-26 18:40:11 <marioxcc> they're totally different things
2666 2011-06-26 18:40:19 <marioxcc> I find the name misleading
2667 2011-06-26 18:40:23 lumos has joined
2668 2011-06-26 18:40:32 <marioxcc> maybe HTTP-tunneling would have been a better name
2669 2011-06-26 18:41:49 <pasky> prof7bit: websockets allow you to open a single connection with the server and do bi-directional communication, instead of active-polling the server with repeated new connections; it makes a lot of sense but is not so widespread yet
2670 2011-06-26 18:41:50 Gekz has quit (Client Quit)
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2674 2011-06-26 18:41:57 <xtalmath> websockets = multiplexing normal general port sockets functionality over a single port 80 socket?
2675 2011-06-26 18:42:04 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2676 2011-06-26 18:42:11 <pasky> xtalmath: not like that
2677 2011-06-26 18:42:14 <xtalmath> + full duplex
2678 2011-06-26 18:42:36 <xtalmath> Because ordinary TCP connections to ports other than 80 are frequently  blocked by administrators outside of home environments, it can be used  as a way to overcome these restrictions and provide similar  functionality with some additional protocol overhead while multiplexing several WebSocket services over a single TCP port.
2679 2011-06-26 18:42:36 <xtalmath> ^Wikipedia
2680 2011-06-26 18:42:40 darkskiez has joined
2681 2011-06-26 18:42:55 <marioxcc> xtalmath: "full duplex" and "half duplex" have no meaning in this context
2682 2011-06-26 18:43:02 <pasky> prof7bit: anyway, a general-purpose web site would have perhaps support for this plus fallback in case the browser doesn't support it; here the webmaster apparently can't be bothered so it's fair choice, either you use compatible browser or don't use the website, noone forces you to
2683 2011-06-26 18:43:19 <marioxcc> they refer to properties of the communication channel, not to the abstractions built on top of it
2684 2011-06-26 18:43:26 SathyaBhat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2685 2011-06-26 18:43:27 <xtalmath> Again wiki: "WebSocket is a technology providing for bi-directional, full-duplex communications channels, over a single Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) socket." go ahead bold sir and change it for the better
2686 2011-06-26 18:43:31 cuddlefish has joined
2687 2011-06-26 18:43:31 <pasky> xtalmath: okay i suppose you could use it like that, but it's rather convoluted use-case
2688 2011-06-26 18:44:01 <marioxcc> ...at least as I know it, of course
2689 2011-06-26 18:44:03 <xtalmath> jeezes im degenerating in a Wikipedia<->IRC link troll
2690 2011-06-26 18:44:25 <marioxcc> anyway, please don't short "wikipedia" as wiki
2691 2011-06-26 18:44:30 <marioxcc> there is a page about that in wikipedia
2692 2011-06-26 18:44:31 <xtalmath> slowly slowly becoming a mongoloid :(
2693 2011-06-26 18:44:44 <marioxcc> but I can't found it right now
2694 2011-06-26 18:44:44 sathyabhat has joined
2695 2011-06-26 18:45:04 <pasky> marioxcc: full duplex means both sides can talk asynchronously... consider SMTP, either the server is sending you replies, or it listens to your commands; consider IRC, you can anytime send a PRIVMSG while the server keeps asynchronously sending you info about what's happenning
2696 2011-06-26 18:45:10 <pasky> marioxcc: SMTP is half-duplex, IRC is full-duplex
2697 2011-06-26 18:45:11 <xtalmath> you are right, Wiki has a universally accepted monopoly on the meaning of words
2698 2011-06-26 18:45:32 <pasky> marioxcc: at least that's how i understand dupelx
2699 2011-06-26 18:46:11 <pasky> of course it's a bit different angle than at the physical layer, but i don't think the meaning is really any different
2700 2011-06-26 18:46:20 <marioxcc> I have to disagree
2701 2011-06-26 18:46:25 <marioxcc> asynchronously?
2702 2011-06-26 18:46:29 <marioxcc> well, you never know
2703 2011-06-26 18:46:46 <marioxcc> pipelined HTTP or SMTP asynchronous
2704 2011-06-26 18:46:53 Gekz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2705 2011-06-26 18:47:02 <pasky> i don't follow
2706 2011-06-26 18:48:07 samlander has joined
2707 2011-06-26 18:48:11 <marioxcc> full duplex mean the channel can be used to transmit in both ways at the same time
2708 2011-06-26 18:48:17 msiren has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2709 2011-06-26 18:48:22 <marioxcc> half duplex means only one channel can be used at a time
2710 2011-06-26 18:48:37 <xtalmath> marioxcc: I guess thats what websockets is also promising
2711 2011-06-26 18:48:41 <marioxcc> hence, halving the bandwidth if both parties must transmit at once
2712 2011-06-26 18:49:02 Idler has joined
2713 2011-06-26 18:49:07 <marioxcc> xtalmath: maybe, I still have to check the details :)
2714 2011-06-26 18:49:57 <xtalmath> marioxcc: full duplex etc, are meant to mean at the same time on the level of that specific protocol
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2716 2011-06-26 18:50:09 <prof7bit> stop using sockets in javascript! someone has to stop this madness!
2717 2011-06-26 18:50:41 <xtalmath> for example HDA communication to soundcard can be opened full duplex, but underlying protocols may or may not be unidirectional, alternated over time
2718 2011-06-26 18:50:51 ionspin has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2719 2011-06-26 18:50:51 <prof7bit> XMLHttpRequest should serve all purposes
2720 2011-06-26 18:51:03 <marioxcc> xtalmath: I still don't get it
2721 2011-06-26 18:51:17 <marioxcc> some protocols are syncronus so they only use one direction at once
2722 2011-06-26 18:51:31 <marioxcc> usually, they also have provision for pipelining
2723 2011-06-26 18:51:32 <xtalmath> a protocol is called duplex or not so that anything that talks the protocol can behave as if it was at the same time
2724 2011-06-26 18:51:35 <marioxcc> where they will use both channels at once
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2728 2011-06-26 18:52:41 <prof7bit> what comes next? javascript to access my hardware?
2729 2011-06-26 18:53:19 <pasky> the abomiations, like accelerated 3d rendering in javascript!
2730 2011-06-26 18:53:30 <marioxcc> prof7bit: it DOES
2731 2011-06-26 18:53:35 <xtalmath> marioxcc: do you know communicating sequential processes, or SPIN, or process algebra/calculi?
2732 2011-06-26 18:53:35 <pasky> what kind of times have we reached?!
2733 2011-06-26 18:53:42 <marioxcc> prof7bit: how do you think it's evaluated, otherwise
2734 2011-06-26 18:53:58 <xtalmath> its just an agreement that either you talk one at a time, or support simultaneous talking
2735 2011-06-26 18:54:02 <prof7bit> marioxcc: you know what i meant to say
2736 2011-06-26 18:54:13 <xtalmath> people drank too much DHMO
2737 2011-06-26 18:54:17 <marioxcc> prof7bit: your statement is meaningless
2738 2011-06-26 18:54:26 <marioxcc> xtalmath: no, sorry, maybe that's why I don't follow your argument
2739 2011-06-26 18:54:30 B0g4r7_ has joined
2740 2011-06-26 18:54:30 <cuddlefish> xtalmath: ... DHMO is a solvent
2741 2011-06-26 18:54:36 <cuddlefish> xtalmath: you mean DXM
2742 2011-06-26 18:55:03 <xtalmath> is DXM more dangerous than DHMO?
2743 2011-06-26 18:55:09 Rictoo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2744 2011-06-26 18:55:21 <cuddlefish> xtalmath: DXM makes you stupid, DHMO makes you taste garlic
2745 2011-06-26 18:55:23 <xtalmath> can you give an example of where I must take care not to be exposed to DXM?
2746 2011-06-26 18:55:41 <cuddlefish> xtalmath: Oh, derp, that's DMHO
2747 2011-06-26 18:55:41 <marioxcc> prof7bit: software instances have access to hardware, for otherwise it couldn't ran, you could have asked as well "what comes next?, javascript being a programming language?" (it is)
2748 2011-06-26 18:55:52 <prof7bit> to pull the quotes from the server via http it could easily use existing methods built into even older browsers
2749 2011-06-26 18:56:26 <xtalmath> dimonohydroxide? its starting to undergo genetic mutations adapting to our biologic firewalls?
2750 2011-06-26 18:56:30 <prof7bit> no need to open a TCP socket for this
2751 2011-06-26 18:56:36 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2752 2011-06-26 18:56:42 <xtalmath> dex is really stupid
2753 2011-06-26 18:56:48 elkenp has joined
2754 2011-06-26 18:56:53 Baksch has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2755 2011-06-26 18:57:08 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
2756 2011-06-26 18:57:11 <dsockwell> dex isn't that bad, once or twice.  you have to wonder about people who do it a lot though
2757 2011-06-26 18:57:19 <cuddlefish> ;;google DMHO
2758 2011-06-26 18:57:20 <gribble> Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info: <http://www.dhmo.org/>; DMHO :: About: <http://www.denvermho.com/about.php>; Denver & the Mile High Orchestra :: A Modern Day Horn Band: <http://www.denvermho.com/>
2759 2011-06-26 18:57:22 <marioxcc> xtalmath: uh, "dimono[...]"
2760 2011-06-26 18:57:31 <cuddlefish> Derp! DMSO
2761 2011-06-26 18:57:33 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
2762 2011-06-26 18:57:36 <cuddlefish> ;;google DMSO
2763 2011-06-26 18:57:36 <gribble> Dimethyl sulfoxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide>; DMSO: Many Uses, Much Controversy: <http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm>; Dimethyl Sulfoxide (DMSO) - Dr. Stanley Jacob: <http://www.dmso.org/>
2764 2011-06-26 18:57:38 <cuddlefish> aha.
2765 2011-06-26 18:57:43 TheZimm has quit (Excess Flood)
2766 2011-06-26 18:57:44 <cuddlefish> i /am/ tired
2767 2011-06-26 18:57:46 <marioxcc> ;;google dhmo
2768 2011-06-26 18:57:47 <gribble> DHMO.org: <http://www.dhmo.org/>; Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide - DHMO.org: <http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html>; Dihydrogen monoxide hoax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax>
2769 2011-06-26 18:57:48 TheZimm has joined
2770 2011-06-26 18:58:13 erle- has joined
2771 2011-06-26 18:59:25 <prof7bit> <marioxcc> prof7bit: software instances have access to hardware  <-- no, certain kind of software only has access to layers of abstraction that constrain what they are allowed to do and what not.
2772 2011-06-26 18:59:31 fpgaminer has quit ()
2773 2011-06-26 19:00:02 <marioxcc> prof7bit: how does that contradict my statement?
2774 2011-06-26 19:00:49 <prof7bit> for example i would not want javascript in the browser have direct access to the file system.
2775 2011-06-26 19:00:59 <marioxcc> prof7bit: and it doesn't
2776 2011-06-26 19:01:08 <prof7bit> exactly. for good reasons
2777 2011-06-26 19:01:09 <marioxcc> but again, it HAS access to hardware for otherwise it wouldn't run!
2778 2011-06-26 19:01:19 <marioxcc> it's just limited
2779 2011-06-26 19:01:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> yay mtgox is live
2780 2011-06-26 19:01:30 <prof7bit> and i also dont want it to open raw TCP sockets in my network
2781 2011-06-26 19:01:36 mmoya has joined
2782 2011-06-26 19:02:11 <xtalmath> actually pure DHMO is extremely dangerous to drink in substantial quantities (glass of it): it can dissolve the cell bariers of your stomach causing internal bleeding
2783 2011-06-26 19:02:20 <xtalmath> (joking aside)
2784 2011-06-26 19:02:51 <prof7bit> it does not have access to hardware. it has access to some API that may or may not use hardware or emulate it or ignore it.
2785 2011-06-26 19:02:54 <dsockwell> wouldn't it be ionized by the stomach contents?
2786 2011-06-26 19:03:09 <cuddlefish> What happens if I have 1 BTC unconfirmed and 1 BTC confirmed, then send  2 BTC?
2787 2011-06-26 19:03:13 <xtalmath> add enough salt to pure DHMO and I *think* it could be drinkable
2788 2011-06-26 19:03:16 <cuddlefish> (in bitcoind, with sendfrom)
2789 2011-06-26 19:03:16 <prof7bit> this is called sandbox. look it up on wikipedia.
2790 2011-06-26 19:03:28 <marioxcc> prof7bit: what would you say is "access to hardware"?
2791 2011-06-26 19:03:31 <xtalmath> dsockwell: thats why you survive a small quantity
2792 2011-06-26 19:03:50 <b4epoche> DHMO will f'up your hardware
2793 2011-06-26 19:03:54 <dsockwell> i'm pretty sure i've done what you said
2794 2011-06-26 19:04:03 <dsockwell> and i'm not maimed
2795 2011-06-26 19:04:22 <b4epoche> pure DHMO will also cause single-cell orgranisms to bloat up and explode
2796 2011-06-26 19:04:31 <prof7bit> access to hardware is what i used to do back in the time when i needed the circuit diagram while writing my assembly code.
2797 2011-06-26 19:04:36 <xtalmath> dsockwell: molecular content of the DHMO will be proportional to volume, while the stomach linings content of ions is proportional to area, thats also the reason cleaning with liquids works
2798 2011-06-26 19:05:24 <marioxcc> prof7bit: so then other than the firmware, no software have access to hardware, I suppose
2799 2011-06-26 19:05:25 <prof7bit> or what i do nowadays when i tweak webcan drivers for longer exposure times
2800 2011-06-26 19:05:44 elkenp has left ()
2801 2011-06-26 19:05:56 <xtalmath> dsockwell: if you had drunk or eaten before, there would be volume of ionized solution that prevents this from happening, dont drink pure DHMO especially not on an empty stomach
2802 2011-06-26 19:06:06 <marioxcc> you're defining what it's for a human to have access to hardware, not for a software, i think
2803 2011-06-26 19:06:39 <dsockwell> xtalmath: my point is that the stomach isn't ever that empty, there's always something in there
2804 2011-06-26 19:06:44 <cuddlefish> .. what the hell are we talking about in #bitcoin-dev
2805 2011-06-26 19:06:45 <dsockwell> or other
2806 2011-06-26 19:06:53 <prof7bit> it is also said to acces the hardware when it is allowed to use an API to make use of said hardware to its fullest possible potential. And this is almost reached if i allow it top open sockets on my network adapters.
2807 2011-06-26 19:08:56 <xtalmath> dsockwell: people have bled to death, also lots of people think every kind of ironing DHMO is pure DHMO
2808 2011-06-26 19:08:56 spm_Draget has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2809 2011-06-26 19:08:56 <dsockwell> xtalmath: i've never heard of this, can you name a case?
2810 2011-06-26 19:08:56 <xtalmath> no :(
2811 2011-06-26 19:08:56 <dsockwell> i've still never heard of it then
2812 2011-06-26 19:08:56 <xtalmath> let me try to find it
2813 2011-06-26 19:09:05 <b4epoche> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
2814 2011-06-26 19:09:32 <marioxcc> isn't it funny, water CAN KILL YOU
2815 2011-06-26 19:09:34 <cuddlefish> xtalmath: hold your wii
2816 2011-06-26 19:09:39 <marioxcc> ?
2817 2011-06-26 19:09:49 <cuddlefish> google it
2818 2011-06-26 19:10:07 <cuddlefish> ;;google hold your wee for a wii
2819 2011-06-26 19:10:08 <gribble> Woman in water-drinking contest dies - US news - Life - msnbc.com: <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/>; KDND - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDND>; "Hold Your Wee For A Wii" Lawsuit | www.thesmokinggun.com: <http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/hold-your-wee-wii-lawsuit>
2820 2011-06-26 19:10:09 <dsockwell> that was death from not pissing
2821 2011-06-26 19:10:16 <dsockwell> not burns from pure water
2822 2011-06-26 19:10:23 <upb> < coderrr> im seeing if i can get away with doing an address inclusion check by doing "addr1;addr2;addr3".include?  addr <- change that to
2823 2011-06-26 19:10:33 <xtalmath> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water#Drinking_distilled_water note the scitation needed at adding of impurities
2824 2011-06-26 19:10:37 manifold___ has joined
2825 2011-06-26 19:10:40 <upb> ";addr1;addre2;addre3;".include? ";" + addr + ";"
2826 2011-06-26 19:10:41 <xtalmath> i didnt place that text
2827 2011-06-26 19:10:54 marioxcc has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2828 2011-06-26 19:11:06 <coderrr> yea good pt, i just ended up splitting it
2829 2011-06-26 19:11:07 <xtalmath> I have heard of it before, and also when seamen distill seawater, they add some salt back in
2830 2011-06-26 19:11:11 manifold_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2831 2011-06-26 19:11:41 <b4epoche> distilled water just doesn't taste very good
2832 2011-06-26 19:11:52 <b4epoche> you need some minerals
2833 2011-06-26 19:11:53 <xtalmath> also water is often called distilled but that doesnt mean ions are nearly eliminated
2834 2011-06-26 19:12:03 <dsockwell> xtalmath: yes because they're drinking it long term.  imo you're still on the level of the person who tried to convince me that deionized water was made by adding 'negative ions like chloride that are poison'
2835 2011-06-26 19:12:15 <b4epoche> d-i water is essentially the same thing
2836 2011-06-26 19:12:23 spm_Draget has joined
2837 2011-06-26 19:12:36 cuddlefish has quit (Quit: leaving)
2838 2011-06-26 19:12:45 <dsockwell> xtalmath: also parse a sentence, the wiki article about adding impurities refers to tap water
2839 2011-06-26 19:12:59 <minus> what's that! http://i.imgur.com/k9hLQ.png
2840 2011-06-26 19:13:12 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
2841 2011-06-26 19:13:21 falcnor-away is now known as falcnor
2842 2011-06-26 19:13:26 <dsockwell> ohhhh shit
2843 2011-06-26 19:13:27 <b4epoche> d-i water just has the soluble minerals removed, via distillation mainly
2844 2011-06-26 19:13:31 <dsockwell> buffer overflow?
2845 2011-06-26 19:13:59 <dsockwell> bad string parsing?
2846 2011-06-26 19:14:09 <b4epoche> sqli?
2847 2011-06-26 19:14:10 <dsockwell> forget an e-7 or something?
2848 2011-06-26 19:15:03 <dsockwell> parsed a signed int as unsigned/
2849 2011-06-26 19:15:24 <minus> it's magick
2850 2011-06-26 19:15:42 <minus> it's from the forums
2851 2011-06-26 19:15:54 <dsockwell> if i were going to fake something like that i'd use burp to tamper the data
2852 2011-06-26 19:15:57 <xtalmath> nono, I read somewhere that pure H20 is non potable, because it can dissolve stomach linings cell barriers breaking the cells open, and if enough of it is present and stomach is empty enough it can perforate the stomachs lining
2853 2011-06-26 19:16:37 <dsockwell> xtalmath: i think that would take rather more than a glass
2854 2011-06-26 19:16:39 <xtalmath> then again I dont claim there is ANY lesson to be learnt from it, nobody drinks pure H20 so accidents dont happen
2855 2011-06-26 19:16:44 Obehsh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2856 2011-06-26 19:17:08 <xtalmath> dsockwell: i must admit I improvised the exact amount, but it was certainly drinkable
2857 2011-06-26 19:17:10 <dsockwell> i think on a few occasions i've downed a gallon of purified water over time
2858 2011-06-26 19:17:26 ionspin has joined
2859 2011-06-26 19:17:35 <dsockwell> by no means on an empty stomach though
2860 2011-06-26 19:17:56 T_X1 has joined
2861 2011-06-26 19:18:03 <dsockwell> i will concede that if there was a glass big enough, and a stomach empty enough, something awful could happen
2862 2011-06-26 19:18:07 <xtalmath> dsockwell: purified water =/= pure H20 chemically (of course therell still be H+ and OH- but they still dissolve the normally not soluble cell barriers)
2863 2011-06-26 19:18:31 <dsockwell> xtalmath: mass spectrometer or gtfo
2864 2011-06-26 19:18:35 <prof7bit> <xtalmath> nono, I read somewhere that pure H20 is non potable, because it can dissolve stomach linings cell barriers breaking the cells open, and if enough of it is present and stomach is empty enough it can perforate the stomachs lining  <-- this is a MYTH!
2865 2011-06-26 19:19:02 lyspooner has joined
2866 2011-06-26 19:19:03 <xtalmath> also volume goes as L^3 while area goes as L^2, why else do we clean surfaces with water (often without soap)
2867 2011-06-26 19:19:18 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2868 2011-06-26 19:19:28 <xtalmath> I didnt read about it, my father (civil engineer) told me this...
2869 2011-06-26 19:19:53 <b4epoche> civil engineers should not discuss molecular biology
2870 2011-06-26 19:19:55 <xtalmath> the dimensional argument really convinces me not that much is needed
2871 2011-06-26 19:19:57 <dsockwell> ^
2872 2011-06-26 19:19:58 <xtalmath> true
2873 2011-06-26 19:20:00 <soap> what?
2874 2011-06-26 19:20:06 <dsockwell> oh man
2875 2011-06-26 19:20:10 <dsockwell> here comes the union
2876 2011-06-26 19:20:25 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2877 2011-06-26 19:20:39 <xtalmath> before his university studies he was obsessed with chemistry and made bombs for fun (nitroglycerin, ...)
2878 2011-06-26 19:21:05 <dsockwell> so there must be some documentation of this other than the word of a sole engineering grad
2879 2011-06-26 19:21:09 <xtalmath> and he was a laser engineer, and plasmas are well, quite chemical
2880 2011-06-26 19:21:18 <soap> how is purified water not equal to pure H20 chemically?
2881 2011-06-26 19:21:42 <b4epoche> now, heavy water will really get you wasted!
2882 2011-06-26 19:21:49 <dsockwell> ^
2883 2011-06-26 19:21:58 <dsockwell> drink enough heavy water and you'll be jacked up for weeks
2884 2011-06-26 19:21:59 <xtalmath> dsockwell: I dont know how correct he was though or what his source was, id love to debunk this myth or establish some scientific documentation, although the occasion of this happening in real life by accident seems so low
2885 2011-06-26 19:22:08 <xtalmath> so I can imagine there is no research necessary on this
2886 2011-06-26 19:22:26 <soap> drink enough heavy water and you'll die.  Unlikely you'll get "jacked up" as in intoxicated unless dying cells get you off.
2887 2011-06-26 19:22:32 <xtalmath> soap: purified often means, get enough impurities out to make it potable
2888 2011-06-26 19:22:51 <soap> xtalmath, that is such utter bogosity I'd LOVE to see a citation.
2889 2011-06-26 19:23:04 <soap> I mean purified as in distilled w/o mineral content.
2890 2011-06-26 19:23:08 <xtalmath> alternatively we start a fake website now
2891 2011-06-26 19:23:25 <soap> so no more redefining of "purified", please.
2892 2011-06-26 19:23:30 <b4epoche> I can debunk this with a quick email...
2893 2011-06-26 19:23:43 <soap> A citation in the literature would be nice.
2894 2011-06-26 19:23:54 <xtalmath> my definition of pure H20:  only molecules H20 and H+ and OH- are present
2895 2011-06-26 19:23:54 <dsockwell> i googled and found a bunch of scare pages and no legitimate health resources
2896 2011-06-26 19:24:03 <xtalmath> pure H20 can not exist
2897 2011-06-26 19:24:16 <soap> xtalmath, I can accept that definition and still demand to know how that can cause damage to my stomach.
2898 2011-06-26 19:24:21 <xtalmath> since a fraction spontaneously forms H+ and ON-
2899 2011-06-26 19:24:24 <xtalmath> OH-
2900 2011-06-26 19:24:26 <dsockwell> this argument no longer holds my interest, claim victory if you must
2901 2011-06-26 19:24:27 <soap> what do you think they drink on the space shuttle?
2902 2011-06-26 19:24:27 <dsockwell> bye
2903 2011-06-26 19:24:54 <b4epoche> the output of a fuel cell?
2904 2011-06-26 19:24:57 <xtalmath> well I didnt find scare pages mentioning the dissolving of stomach lining
2905 2011-06-26 19:25:06 <soap> You telling me the drippings from their fuel cells aren't "purified" water?
2906 2011-06-26 19:25:08 <xtalmath> and you can find scare pages on anything
2907 2011-06-26 19:25:30 <soap> or is that not pure enough for you?
2908 2011-06-26 19:25:57 <b4epoche> if he's saying water without H+/OH- ions is 'pure' then, yea, there's not pure water
2909 2011-06-26 19:26:03 <xtalmath> no I dont really know if its true, im just saying I can see an argument and believe it may be true, but it doesnt really matter (how many people do you know that insist on drinking only H2O H+ and OH-?)
2910 2011-06-26 19:26:29 <dsockwell> i'll drink a gallon of it today
2911 2011-06-26 19:26:48 <dsockwell> want to make a wager?
2912 2011-06-26 19:26:53 <xtalmath> have a webcam ready and let people bet BTC on your survival
2913 2011-06-26 19:27:00 <dsockwell> this can be arranged
2914 2011-06-26 19:27:08 Beremaat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2915 2011-06-26 19:27:12 <soap> I don't see what the lack of ions is supposed to do.
2916 2011-06-26 19:27:18 Beremat has joined
2917 2011-06-26 19:27:18 Katapult has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2918 2011-06-26 19:27:34 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2919 2011-06-26 19:27:35 <xtalmath> I have 0.22 BTC, but I cant verify if its tap water, and how purified it is, (perhaps well need conductivity meter in front of webcam)
2920 2011-06-26 19:27:38 falcnor has left ()
2921 2011-06-26 19:27:39 Obehsh has joined
2922 2011-06-26 19:27:55 <dsockwell> sealed milkjug enough for you?
2923 2011-06-26 19:28:26 <xtalmath> also, its my only 0.22 BTC, and if we have to put our money where our mouth is ill happily back off
2924 2011-06-26 19:28:28 Joric has joined
2925 2011-06-26 19:28:30 Idler has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2926 2011-06-26 19:28:31 Katapult has joined
2927 2011-06-26 19:28:49 <xtalmath> sealed milkjug sounds right, also I am not responsible for any ill side effects including death
2928 2011-06-26 19:28:54 <soap> if there were an escrow service...
2929 2011-06-26 19:29:05 <dsockwell> i can go to a public place and have observers
2930 2011-06-26 19:29:10 <dsockwell> well, semi-public
2931 2011-06-26 19:29:22 <Joric> mybitcoin.com seems ALWAYS down for maintenance, FFS!
2932 2011-06-26 19:29:30 <dsockwell> that is if the betting is good enough
2933 2011-06-26 19:29:50 <dsockwell> i, for one, bet that i'll survive
2934 2011-06-26 19:29:51 <dubbz82> Joric, yea
2935 2011-06-26 19:29:52 <xtalmath> dsockwell: dont do it
2936 2011-06-26 19:29:53 <prof7bit> tha absence of ions won't do anything because when entering the stomach there will be enough stomach acid to have plenty of H+ and Cl- ions
2937 2011-06-26 19:29:59 <dubbz82> that's the one i'm using right now too
2938 2011-06-26 19:30:02 <b4epoche> I have distilled water in my office, if you can wait to lose your money tomorrow
2939 2011-06-26 19:30:04 <dubbz82> i'm gonna start stashing them local
2940 2011-06-26 19:30:11 <dubbz82> it's becoming too much of a headache.
2941 2011-06-26 19:30:13 <dsockwell> i'll bet your 0.22 btc though
2942 2011-06-26 19:30:15 <xtalmath> well he would not eat for 10 hours in front of webcam
2943 2011-06-26 19:30:30 <xtalmath> dsockwell: im not in
2944 2011-06-26 19:30:42 <dsockwell> if it's not worth my time (even a little) i'm out too
2945 2011-06-26 19:31:04 <soap> prof7bit, well that's the thing.  We're being asked to consider the impossible situation where ion-free water /remains/ ion free yet still has some magic ability to be an actor.
2946 2011-06-26 19:31:15 <b4epoche> wow wants to eat a whole bottle of Tums?
2947 2011-06-26 19:31:22 <Joric> did anyone use bitcoinbalance.com? registeration freaks me out after mtgox incident why not use some openid
2948 2011-06-26 19:31:25 <xtalmath> its my lifeline of the future: 21million BTC/ 7 billion people, is 70 some personmoney, so I intend to buy 70 sexslaves with it in the future
2949 2011-06-26 19:31:55 <xtalmath> soap: remains ion free... H+ and OH- may form
2950 2011-06-26 19:31:58 <b4epoche> s/wow/who
2951 2011-06-26 19:32:27 <dsockwell> Joric: use keepass or some other program to remember a unique password.  only people who reuse passwords get screwed by user db hacks.
2952 2011-06-26 19:33:27 <Joric> i use keepass but it's not that handy it'd better be a browser plugin or something
2953 2011-06-26 19:33:37 <prof7bit> the only thing i could imagine where this argument comes from is osmotic pressure to blow up the cells. but this will not happen.
2954 2011-06-26 19:33:39 manifold___ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2955 2011-06-26 19:33:40 <dsockwell> so have mozilla remember your passwords
2956 2011-06-26 19:33:44 <dsockwell> or whoever
2957 2011-06-26 19:33:52 <dsockwell> you don't sound all that dedicated tbh
2958 2011-06-26 19:34:15 Gonzago has joined
2959 2011-06-26 19:34:15 <b4epoche> prof7bit:  same here...
2960 2011-06-26 19:34:24 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2961 2011-06-26 19:34:28 <xtalmath> prof7bit: hmm now that you say that I m not sure what the exact explanation was
2962 2011-06-26 19:34:35 <b4epoche> prof7bit: see my single-cell orgamism remark above
2963 2011-06-26 19:34:36 <soap> yea, let an internet-facing program handle your passwords!  Brilliant!
2964 2011-06-26 19:34:52 <dsockwell> :>
2965 2011-06-26 19:35:03 <Joric> TIL SuperGenPass/SuperChromePass but still i'd prefer to remember all my passwords, i can't sha1 in my head
2966 2011-06-26 19:35:04 <soap> prof7bit, it would shrink the cells, not inflate them.
2967 2011-06-26 19:35:22 <soap> wait, ignore tha.
2968 2011-06-26 19:35:27 <soap> that.  Brain fart.
2969 2011-06-26 19:35:28 <dsockwell> no, the opposite
2970 2011-06-26 19:36:03 <prof7bit> no, the wate would try to go inside to make the osmotic pressure equal to the outside
2971 2011-06-26 19:36:09 <prof7bit> water*
2972 2011-06-26 19:36:16 * b4epoche wonders if there are cell walls that act the opposite way
2973 2011-06-26 19:36:28 <dsockwell> blood brain barrier
2974 2011-06-26 19:36:36 <upb> LOL minus
2975 2011-06-26 19:36:39 <upb> thats pretty bad
2976 2011-06-26 19:36:40 <soap> but by a different mechanism.
2977 2011-06-26 19:37:03 <soap> so not really comparable.  It's like saying "is there a machine which behaves different than the lack of a machine"
2978 2011-06-26 19:37:05 <dsockwell> actually i think all cell walls are that way, but pure water would overwhelm those mechanisms
2979 2011-06-26 19:37:05 <soap> ?
2980 2011-06-26 19:37:21 <b4epoche> hey, SpongeBob is trying to reverse engineer the secret ingredient on the episode on now ;-)
2981 2011-06-26 19:37:30 <xtalmath> interesting contra conspiracy page supporting danger of drinking pure water, debunking deionizers as hippie cult: http://www.snyderhealth.com/water_ionizers/distilled_and_reverse_osmosis_water.html
2982 2011-06-26 19:38:08 <prof7bit> cells can stand this. "normal" drinking water and distilled water are almost the same pressure differences compared to the inside of the cell.
2983 2011-06-26 19:38:10 <dsockwell> counterbullshit is still bullshit.
2984 2011-06-26 19:38:20 <xtalmath> true dat
2985 2011-06-26 19:39:22 <dsockwell> also that presupposes the existence of people who drink nothing but DI and don't explode
2986 2011-06-26 19:39:24 <prof7bit> the inside is something like 10% salt water and every drinking water would look like distilled water compared to that
2987 2011-06-26 19:40:07 <upb> Joric: did you find a js lib doing address verification btw ?
2988 2011-06-26 19:40:47 <Joric> upb, nope, isn't just any sha58?
2989 2011-06-26 19:41:01 <upb> no, i tried to code it but it doesnt pass tests :)
2990 2011-06-26 19:41:18 <xtalmath> the second article on that page sounds much less bullshit tho
2991 2011-06-26 19:41:19 <b4epoche> funny how all this stuff is in books, not scholarly journals.
2992 2011-06-26 19:41:50 <upb> https://github.com/AbrahamJewowich/bitcoinAddress if you want to find the problem and fix it :P
2993 2011-06-26 19:42:01 <Joric> okay :(
2994 2011-06-26 19:42:33 <b4epoche> by the same fella who wrote this:  http://shop.snyderhealth.com/article_info.php?articles_id=36
2995 2011-06-26 19:42:51 <Joric> speaking of passwords looks like pwgen-generated "pronounceable passwords" are not very secure too, password cracking industry went far ahead since then
2996 2011-06-26 19:43:20 <b4epoche> who sells this:  http://alkalife.net/
2997 2011-06-26 19:43:26 <b4epoche> quack
2998 2011-06-26 19:43:57 <xtalmath> http://www.springerlink.com/content/x0r5806h18529244/
2999 2011-06-26 19:44:05 elnato is now known as midget
3000 2011-06-26 19:44:11 midget is now known as elnato
3001 2011-06-26 19:44:22 <dsockwell> upb: tried just hitting blockexplorer?
3002 2011-06-26 19:44:34 <b4epoche> xtalmath: what's that about?
3003 2011-06-26 19:44:35 <xtalmath> lets consider the myth debunke mkay?
3004 2011-06-26 19:44:37 <upb> what do you mean hitting blockexplorer?
3005 2011-06-26 19:44:57 <dsockwell> upb: blockexplorer has a widget to verify addresses, i scrape it in my code
3006 2011-06-26 19:44:58 <Joric> blockexplorer won't know a fresh address
3007 2011-06-26 19:45:02 <Joric> oh
3008 2011-06-26 19:45:12 <upb> is it written in js ?
3009 2011-06-26 19:45:12 <dsockwell> it does the checksum
3010 2011-06-26 19:45:15 <dsockwell> no php
3011 2011-06-26 19:45:17 <upb> ahh
3012 2011-06-26 19:45:22 <soap> and the springerlink link was to demonstrate a google for "distilled water leech"?
3013 2011-06-26 19:45:30 <upb> yea i wanted to see if its easy to write in js, it isnt :)
3014 2011-06-26 19:46:13 <b4epoche> wtf?  Smurf movie?
3015 2011-06-26 19:46:38 <Joric> btw i've asked theymos about monitoring unverified transactions, he answered "It's on my to-do list, and I have much of the code written"
3016 2011-06-26 19:47:22 <Sebastan> I have a hashing-question: When hashing a block header with sha256 you take the block header in hex-format (80bytes) and swap the merkle root and the prevhash to little endian. Then you take the block header (now partly in little endian) and turn every byte into the corresponding ascii-char so you get a string and put this into sha256... ? Then put it again into sha256 and treat the result as little endian. turn it back to big endi
3017 2011-06-26 19:47:53 <Joric> i just don't get how mybitcoin.com works so fast looks like it believes unverified transaction is okay
3018 2011-06-26 19:47:58 <xtalmath> soap its what my uni library search returned for '  "distilled water" danger ' :S also i assumed nobody would have springerlink access here, since thats only for the academocracy
3019 2011-06-26 19:48:17 <b4epoche> you assumed wrong
3020 2011-06-26 19:48:50 <soap> xtalmath, it is a rather nasty insecticide.
3021 2011-06-26 19:48:56 * b4epoche is entrenched in the academocracy
3022 2011-06-26 19:49:00 <xtalmath> oh well I could only do what everything and everybody does: export entropy and hunt for pools of lower entropy
3023 2011-06-26 19:49:11 <dsockwell> little tidbit here, modern insecticides are an offshoot of nerve gas research
3024 2011-06-26 19:49:40 <b4epoche> good old neurotoxins
3025 2011-06-26 19:49:52 <upb> Sebastan: hex and chars doesnt matter, its still the same data
3026 2011-06-26 19:51:07 <xtalmath> look at bitcoin: by copying its code and blockchain it decreases its entropy (its a viral idea, just like genes are viral ideas) by making surer its presence in the universe
3027 2011-06-26 19:51:57 <xtalmath> and if you dont know how to attack something (full of entropy) you can always try to bruteforce a problem (the hashing)
3028 2011-06-26 19:52:50 <XMD> why ios mt gox not providing trade data?
3029 2011-06-26 19:52:57 Zelgada has joined
3030 2011-06-26 19:53:03 <xtalmath> if somebody comes up with a method to invert SHA quick enough, faster than bruteforce, he will be able to get lots of bitches with his btc, again spreading his way of living
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3036 2011-06-26 19:57:43 <upb> yeah makes total sense :)
3037 2011-06-26 19:58:44 <Joric> what the hell? http://bitcoinbalance.com/faq.php :))
3038 2011-06-26 19:59:07 <xtalmath> entropy and life, the jungle and the mindfuck will always stay (wheither its camouflage patterns or mtgox showing high frequency changes of ownership, mindfucking you into highfrequency trading) only changing form as we learn together
3039 2011-06-26 19:59:09 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: there'll be much more catastrophic consequences than that to sha being reversable
3040 2011-06-26 19:59:16 <jrmithdobbs> non-bitcoin-related
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3044 2011-06-26 19:59:34 <xtalmath> jrmithdobbs: we should switch to provably secure hashes
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3046 2011-06-26 20:00:46 <jrmithdobbs> but, sha is?
3047 2011-06-26 20:00:56 <jrmithdobbs> only known attack is bruteforce?
3048 2011-06-26 20:01:21 <xtalmath> like swift and the likes, nothing guarantees its security, but at least we have a better idea how hard it is in computational complexity theory, while our current sha etc are just confusion
3049 2011-06-26 20:01:38 <xtalmath> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provably_secure_cryptographic_hash_function
3050 2011-06-26 20:02:20 <jrmithdobbs> ah, wasn't familiar with that term
3051 2011-06-26 20:02:33 <xtalmath> sha is not one of them, its just something that can compute forwards very fast, but no guarantee on hardness to invert compared with speed of the forward use, while provably secure hash functions take both in account
3052 2011-06-26 20:03:43 micha_ has joined
3053 2011-06-26 20:03:53 <xtalmath> thats what a one way function is supposed to be doing: the forward computation should be provably harder than the backwards computation with some theoretical bound
3054 2011-06-26 20:04:13 <Zelgada> Since bitcoin uses sha in a Merkle tree, it should be even harder to crack than just a single hash.
3055 2011-06-26 20:04:42 <xtalmath> compare how SHA is not really a function of bit length, every bit length has its specific fiddle constants
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3057 2011-06-26 20:06:19 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: yes but
3058 2011-06-26 20:06:29 <Diablo-D3> this is why the header is sha256(sha256())
3059 2011-06-26 20:06:34 <Diablo-D3> it stops a lot of stupid attacks
3060 2011-06-26 20:07:02 <xtalmath> stated otherwise, if a certain provbly secure hash function like VSH can be inverted with a method M, then that method M can be used to guaranteed factor integers in poly time or something similar
3061 2011-06-26 20:07:46 <xtalmath> Diablo-D3: im not saying sha256 is insecure, i would have to prove that to make that claim, i am saying we dont know how secure it is compared with other problems we know
3062 2011-06-26 20:08:11 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: well
3063 2011-06-26 20:08:15 <Diablo-D3> we know certain attacks are possible
3064 2011-06-26 20:08:24 <Diablo-D3> such as length extension attacks
3065 2011-06-26 20:08:42 <Diablo-D3> which is stopped dead by both double sha256 and the fact headers must always be 80 bytes
3066 2011-06-26 20:08:53 <xtalmath> ...
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3068 2011-06-26 20:09:09 <Diablo-D3> theres just a shitload of plausible attacks that wont work here
3069 2011-06-26 20:09:16 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: interesting reading tho for sure
3070 2011-06-26 20:09:20 <jrmithdobbs> also, lol @ Hash(m) = xm mod n
3071 2011-06-26 20:09:32 <Diablo-D3> and by "plausible attack" I mean the attack works, not that its easy
3072 2011-06-26 20:09:32 <jrmithdobbs> err x^m
3073 2011-06-26 20:09:41 <Diablo-D3> infact, its extremely fucking hard
3074 2011-06-26 20:09:52 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: oh, and as for merkle trees?
3075 2011-06-26 20:09:55 <xtalmath> for a one way function you want to put lower/avg bounds on TimeToInvert/TimeToCalculateForward as a function of bit length and have it rise exponentially or so
3076 2011-06-26 20:09:58 <Diablo-D3> you cant magically make those up
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3078 2011-06-26 20:10:13 <Diablo-D3> the tx list has to be verifyably correct for osme values of verify
3079 2011-06-26 20:10:16 <Diablo-D3> *some
3080 2011-06-26 20:10:46 <xtalmath> Diablo-D3: you mean to say that SHA-256 already has known collisions without double hashing? give me 1 example and you can have all my BTC
3081 2011-06-26 20:11:01 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: no, Im saying there are attacks outside of that
3082 2011-06-26 20:11:06 erus` has joined
3083 2011-06-26 20:11:07 <Diablo-D3> an attack doesnt need to be a shortcut
3084 2011-06-26 20:11:14 <xtalmath> how do you 'attack' a hash?
3085 2011-06-26 20:11:20 <Diablo-D3> with a hatchet.
3086 2011-06-26 20:11:22 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: sha512 is easier to bruteforce than sha256 or sha128, that good enough? i want free btc ;p
3087 2011-06-26 20:11:24 <Diablo-D3> or a small tank.
3088 2011-06-26 20:11:26 <xtalmath> or do you mean attack a protocol?
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3090 2011-06-26 20:11:53 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: but yes, I dont need to prove there are collisions
3091 2011-06-26 20:11:59 <xtalmath> not good enough, I ask for a collision X,Y SHA256(X)=SHA256(Y)
3092 2011-06-26 20:12:04 <Diablo-D3> I only need to be aware that is a possibility
3093 2011-06-26 20:12:11 <jrmithdobbs> (which is why the sha2 512/384 variant was born for password hashing)
3094 2011-06-26 20:12:16 <Diablo-D3> and it is a possibility
3095 2011-06-26 20:12:21 <Diablo-D3> it would be unlikely sha256 is perfect
3096 2011-06-26 20:12:23 Marcel has joined
3097 2011-06-26 20:13:28 <xtalmath> Diablo-D3: I dont require a hash function to be perfect, just that its strength can be compared with known problems! please check the wikipedia page above
3098 2011-06-26 20:13:34 <dubbz82> so
3099 2011-06-26 20:13:38 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: are there any open VSH algorithms? that shit sounds better than scrypt ;p
3100 2011-06-26 20:13:41 <dubbz82> is the mtgox api still all jacked up?
3101 2011-06-26 20:13:43 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: and length extension attacks doesnt mean collisions btw
3102 2011-06-26 20:13:52 <Diablo-D3> er
3103 2011-06-26 20:13:53 Marcel has quit (HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3104 2011-06-26 20:13:55 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: where did i say it did?
3105 2011-06-26 20:13:57 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath:
3106 2011-06-26 20:13:58 <xtalmath> jrmithdobbs: I think so, not sure though
3107 2011-06-26 20:14:13 <Diablo-D3> tab complete likes jrmithdobbs for some reason
3108 2011-06-26 20:14:56 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: well, where did anyone say it did?
3109 2011-06-26 20:14:58 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3110 2011-06-26 20:15:08 * b4epoche thinks xtalmath just took an undergraduate class on this stuff
3111 2011-06-26 20:15:09 <Diablo-D3> Im just saying, xtalmath is sorta obsessed with them
3112 2011-06-26 20:15:32 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: that's some pretty cool stuff tbqh
3113 2011-06-26 20:15:45 <Diablo-D3> and btw, no,
3114 2011-06-26 20:15:46 <xtalmath> Diablo-D3: I asked : "you mean to say ...?" so your answer was no ...
3115 2011-06-26 20:16:09 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: that variant wasnt really born for it
3116 2011-06-26 20:16:12 <jrmithdobbs> xtalmath: ECOH sounds really cool too, too bad second pre-image attack :(
3117 2011-06-26 20:16:53 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: huh? yes 512/384 and 256/224 were specifically created because of how much of an advantage 64bit platforms have with sha256/512?
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3119 2011-06-26 20:17:10 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: you said for password hashing
3120 2011-06-26 20:17:29 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: the variants of the sha2 password hashing algorithm, obviously using sha with keys of lengths != 128/256/512 didn't get born out of it
3121 2011-06-26 20:17:32 <Diablo-D3> who hashes a password with just that?
3122 2011-06-26 20:18:14 <jrmithdobbs> 15:11 < jrmithdobbs> (which is why the sha2 512/384 variant was born for password hashing)
3123 2011-06-26 20:18:23 <jrmithdobbs> i said sha2 specifically, which is the password hash function?!
3124 2011-06-26 20:18:30 <jrmithdobbs> and then said password hashing
3125 2011-06-26 20:18:31 <jrmithdobbs> ...
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3127 2011-06-26 20:18:41 <Diablo-D3> its a hash function that is used somewhere inside of password hashing, yes
3128 2011-06-26 20:19:37 <Diablo-D3> where "somewhere inside" means I might be using 10k round pbkdf2, with a 256 bit salt and and sha512 as the actual pseudorandom function.
3129 2011-06-26 20:20:38 <xtalmath> please check the following while we are at it: "Marc Stevens runs a project called HashClash[29],  implementing a differential path attack against SHA-1. On 8 November  2010, he claimed he had a fully working near-collision attack against  full SHA-1 working with an estimated complexity equivalent to 257.5 SHA-1 compressions." and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-1#Comparison_of_SHA_functions notice the 2^51. sha1 hashes, (these are still used in
3130 2011-06-26 20:20:50 <Diablo-D3> xtalmath: thats sha1
3131 2011-06-26 20:20:54 <Diablo-D3> sha1 is not related to sha2.
3132 2011-06-26 20:20:55 <xtalmath> yes I know
3133 2011-06-26 20:21:02 <Diablo-D3> sha1 was a pile of shit.
3134 2011-06-26 20:21:04 <xtalmath> I am not claiming it cracks bitcoin
3135 2011-06-26 20:21:20 <Diablo-D3> and the known sha1 flaws, if we used it in bitcoin instead of sha256, would most likely not matter
3136 2011-06-26 20:21:27 <xtalmath> so? its in use in many smart cards, this could have commercial pressure behind it :D
3137 2011-06-26 20:21:43 <Diablo-D3> if they use sha1 I fail to see how they're _smart_ cards.
3138 2011-06-26 20:21:54 <xtalmath> small tweak in bitcoin code, and namecoin style instead of fees miners crack for bitcoins
3139 2011-06-26 20:22:14 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, these discussions never go anywhere
3140 2011-06-26 20:22:16 <Diablo-D3> and Im going to bed
3141 2011-06-26 20:22:17 <Diablo-D3> night all
3142 2011-06-26 20:22:21 <xtalmath> Diablo-3D completely right about the fail
3143 2011-06-26 20:22:28 <xtalmath> but its in use
3144 2011-06-26 20:23:15 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: sha2 is specifically the name of a shaX crypto hash function being used for password hashes, but whatever
3145 2011-06-26 20:23:25 <jrmithdobbs> in a specific implementation
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3156 2011-06-26 20:33:23 <xtalmath> also instead of adjusting some target, we could just adjust the size of the intractable problem of the secure hash function
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3163 2011-06-26 20:36:55 <xtalmath> the ideal would be a provably secure crypto hash function which corresponds to an algorithmic problem for which no quantum algorithm is known, i.e. a post-quantum provably secure hash
3164 2011-06-26 20:39:53 <xtalmath> also if 3 different hash functions were mandatorily used in alteration, i.e. block1 meet target with hash1, block2 meet target with hash2, block3 with target hash3, block4 again hash1, ... then an attacker would have to crack 2 hash functions at the same time, i.e. if only one is broken we would notice because every third hash would be instasolved..
3165 2011-06-26 20:40:33 <xtalmath> i.e. he cant try to force a fork, unless he cracks them all
3166 2011-06-26 20:40:41 <mctrader> my guess is that long chains of hashes will be used, rather like cocktails of HIV drugs, so that _all_ hash functions must be broken to break the system
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3168 2011-06-26 20:40:58 <mctrader> maybe 20-100 hashes
3169 2011-06-26 20:41:02 <xtalmath> thats kind of what I say, yea
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3171 2011-06-26 20:41:35 <xtalmath> i just used 3 to show he could not overpower it (2 would still be half of hashing power)
3172 2011-06-26 20:41:40 <mctrader> solve one of them with a quantum or biologic function, and it's no big deal: the other 99 hashes will keep it secure
3173 2011-06-26 20:41:49 <xtalmath> exactly!
3174 2011-06-26 20:42:05 <mtrlt> xtalmath: why not use all hash functions in all blocks?
3175 2011-06-26 20:42:15 <xtalmath> and the code would just be instead of Hash(...) , Hash(..., n)
3176 2011-06-26 20:42:31 <xtalmath> mtrlt: thats increases the burden on checking
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3178 2011-06-26 20:42:45 <xtalmath> if you alternate them, its still one at a time
3179 2011-06-26 20:42:48 <mtrlt> the burden of checking isn't really big right now
3180 2011-06-26 20:42:50 sipa has joined
3181 2011-06-26 20:43:06 <xtalmath> it just prevents somebody from creating a parallel history faster, on his own
3182 2011-06-26 20:43:44 XMD has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3183 2011-06-26 20:43:50 <xtalmath> mtrlt, true
3184 2011-06-26 20:45:09 BaltarNZ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
3185 2011-06-26 20:45:10 <xtalmath> mtrlt: because it would have to make miners decide how much effort they put on each hash function, to be able to present all
3186 2011-06-26 20:45:41 <xtalmath> while no time allotation optimization is necessary if only one kind of hash has to be targeted
3187 2011-06-26 20:45:51 <mtrlt> how much effort? wat?
3188 2011-06-26 20:46:03 <mtrlt> you use them all
3189 2011-06-26 20:46:06 <mtrlt> at the same time
3190 2011-06-26 20:46:10 zamgo has joined
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3192 2011-06-26 20:46:19 <mtrlt> there's no such thing as "putting more effort into one hash function" :p
3193 2011-06-26 20:46:22 <xtalmath> right, brainfart on my part
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3203 2011-06-26 20:51:22 <phrontist> snap, mtgox is giving good data again
3204 2011-06-26 20:53:33 <tonykay_> Why so much trade I. Mtgox
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3216 2011-06-26 21:00:42 <marioxcc> what are the __db.XXX files in the .bitcoin dir?
3217 2011-06-26 21:01:38 <marioxcc> hmm
3218 2011-06-26 21:01:47 <marioxcc> is the client graph organized in some way?
3219 2011-06-26 21:02:21 <sipa> db log files
3220 2011-06-26 21:02:51 <sipa> or some other bdb internal thing
3221 2011-06-26 21:04:11 <marioxcc> thanks you, could you help with the later question?
3222 2011-06-26 21:04:30 <sipa> what do you mean with client graph?
3223 2011-06-26 21:05:11 <marioxcc> imagine a graph with a vertex per node and a edge per connection
3224 2011-06-26 21:05:36 <sipa> ok, the p2p network graph
3225 2011-06-26 21:05:41 duncant has joined
3226 2011-06-26 21:05:44 <sipa> and what do you mean with organized?
3227 2011-06-26 21:06:13 suriv_ has joined
3228 2011-06-26 21:07:25 <marioxcc> sipa: whether the software tries to model it actively or it's just left for luck and the large number law gods
3229 2011-06-26 21:07:58 <duncant> Hi, I sent some bitcoins ~2 hours ago and I'm still sitting at 0 confirmations. It also isn't appearing in the unconfirmed transactions list at bitcoincharts.com. I paid a transaction fee of 0.001 BTC as my client recommended. What can I do to get my bitcoins out of limbo?
3230 2011-06-26 21:08:25 <sipa> duncant: keep your client open and make sure it's connected
3231 2011-06-26 21:08:35 <sipa> it will retransmit the transaction occasionaly
3232 2011-06-26 21:09:11 <sipa> marioxcc: there are some rules
3233 2011-06-26 21:09:12 suriv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3234 2011-06-26 21:09:21 <marioxcc> sipa: could you provide (a link to) further information?
3235 2011-06-26 21:09:23 <sipa> marioxcc: like preferring not to connect to two clients within the same /16 i believe
3236 2011-06-26 21:09:36 <duncant> sipa: Okay, thanks! The other weird thing is that the receiving side of the transaction received it, but is also not getting any confirmations.
3237 2011-06-26 21:09:37 <conjre> so if you have a bunch of transactions at a key address but the software isn't running or connected at the moment, will those funds become available as soon as the software reconnects?
3238 2011-06-26 21:09:49 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3239 2011-06-26 21:09:51 <marioxcc> sipa: oh, ok, simpler than I though
3240 2011-06-26 21:09:55 sytse has joined
3241 2011-06-26 21:09:56 <marioxcc> *tought
3242 2011-06-26 21:10:42 <sipa> conjre: yes
3243 2011-06-26 21:11:14 <zamgo> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet  is stuck.   Is theymos around?
3244 2011-06-26 21:11:28 <conjre> sipa: the time it takes to update that particular wallet address is unknown however, correct?
3245 2011-06-26 21:11:29 sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3246 2011-06-26 21:11:30 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
3247 2011-06-26 21:11:34 <lyspooner> can i create a private/public keypair without ever connecting to the network?
3248 2011-06-26 21:11:40 <sipa> lyspooner: yes
3249 2011-06-26 21:11:50 <sipa> and you can give that addrss to people
3250 2011-06-26 21:11:54 <sipa> and they can send to it
3251 2011-06-26 21:11:58 <sipa> and you'll get it when you connect
3252 2011-06-26 21:12:17 <sipa> conjre: update wallet?
3253 2011-06-26 21:12:26 <lyspooner> thanks sipa, are there physical manifestations of private keys available?
3254 2011-06-26 21:12:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: can I lump all your commits in one big "Prepare CWallet for Encrypted Keys" commit?
3255 2011-06-26 21:12:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: sure
3256 2011-06-26 21:12:56 <lyspooner> like a private key hairclip
3257 2011-06-26 21:12:57 <zamgo> https://github.com/zamgo/shared-wallets/
3258 2011-06-26 21:13:04 abragin has quit ()
3259 2011-06-26 21:13:07 <marioxcc> lyspooner: physical manifestations? (I.e: charge on metal plates around possibly SiO2)
3260 2011-06-26 21:13:09 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3261 2011-06-26 21:13:16 <sipa> lyspooner: bitbills ?
3262 2011-06-26 21:13:39 <conjre> sipa: sorry, the time it takes to update the balance of the wallet it unknown then once that computer reconnects to the network?
3263 2011-06-26 21:14:08 <sipa> unknown to whom?
3264 2011-06-26 21:14:09 <lyspooner> something more like i buy a piece of machinery or hardware that lets me enter my own private key and it turns into something physical in the comfort of my own home?
3265 2011-06-26 21:14:46 <sipa> lyspooner: my showwallet branch allows you to export private keys as base58 strings
3266 2011-06-26 21:14:52 <conjre> to the person reconnecting to the network, I mean will it take 5min to recieve an updated balance once reconnected, 10min, 1hr...
3267 2011-06-26 21:15:10 <sipa> conjre: as fast as he can process the blocks he missed
3268 2011-06-26 21:15:16 <lyspooner> sipa: how long them strings be
3269 2011-06-26 21:15:18 <sipa> you could print those on paper, or turn into a QR code
3270 2011-06-26 21:15:24 <sipa> 51 characters
3271 2011-06-26 21:15:38 <lyspooner> one could memorize 51 characters
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3273 2011-06-26 21:16:29 <lyspooner> sipa: can you customize private keys to include phrases, etc?
3274 2011-06-26 21:16:52 <soap> i use Pi.  Easy to look up my key if I ever forget it!
3275 2011-06-26 21:17:02 <sipa> lyspooner: they can be anything really
3276 2011-06-26 21:17:08 <conjre> sipa: wait so every computer connected to the network has a copy of every btc transaction that has ever occured?
3277 2011-06-26 21:17:12 <soap> why use an insecure password to lock you key?  Remember the key itself!   ;)
3278 2011-06-26 21:17:16 <sipa> conjre: for now, yes
3279 2011-06-26 21:17:26 <sipa> conjre: that's not intended to remain the case
3280 2011-06-26 21:17:34 <conjre> sipa: ok that's what I thought I just wasn't sure if I was understanding it correctly on the sites I was reading
3281 2011-06-26 21:17:52 <epscy> some strange action on tradehill in #bitcoin-market
3282 2011-06-26 21:17:56 <epscy> looks like a bot to me
3283 2011-06-26 21:18:00 <zamgo> public key 130 chars.  private key 558 chars (including 130 of pub key)
3284 2011-06-26 21:18:15 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3285 2011-06-26 21:18:24 <sipa> zamgo: encoded private keys are 279 bytes, but contain a lot of redundant information
3286 2011-06-26 21:18:32 <sipa> zamgo: there are 256 relevant bits in there
3287 2011-06-26 21:18:37 denisx has joined
3288 2011-06-26 21:18:49 <zamgo> spia: so are the keys listed in this readme going to be usable?  https://github.com/zamgo/shared-wallets
3289 2011-06-26 21:19:18 <zamgo> that's what bitcointools spit out
3290 2011-06-26 21:19:37 <sipa> looks like a hex-formatted encoded private key
3291 2011-06-26 21:19:41 <zamgo> yes
3292 2011-06-26 21:19:45 <zamgo> long_hex() function in bitcointools
3293 2011-06-26 21:19:56 <sipa> indeed
3294 2011-06-26 21:20:03 abragin has joined
3295 2011-06-26 21:20:04 abragin has quit (Changing host)
3296 2011-06-26 21:20:04 abragin has joined
3297 2011-06-26 21:20:10 <zamgo> i havn't tried inserting them into a new wallet
3298 2011-06-26 21:20:19 <sipa> it should work
3299 2011-06-26 21:20:23 <sipa> if you do a -rescan
3300 2011-06-26 21:20:34 <zamgo> yup
3301 2011-06-26 21:20:37 <denisx> jgarzik: can you change the time printout to %09.06f for the seconds so the width is not changing on single digit seconds in pushpoold
3302 2011-06-26 21:20:44 <soap> epscy, what behavior do you think looks like a bot?
3303 2011-06-26 21:20:58 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3304 2011-06-26 21:21:05 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3305 2011-06-26 21:21:18 <epscy> soap: the price was going up incrementally in a very short amount of time
3306 2011-06-26 21:21:37 T_X1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3307 2011-06-26 21:21:52 <mrenouf> The volume is over NINE THOUSAND!
3308 2011-06-26 21:21:53 <epscy> it started at 22:15:12
3309 2011-06-26 21:22:12 <mrenouf> no, srsly: Volume: 9426.91751104
3310 2011-06-26 21:22:16 <mrenouf> :)
3311 2011-06-26 21:22:25 <epscy> lol
3312 2011-06-26 21:22:32 <soap> epscy, would that not happen if someone bid (let's say) $17 and the lowest ask was 16.50, then the 16.52 asks, then the 16.53 asks (and so on and so on) were processed to fill the bid?
3313 2011-06-26 21:22:38 wasabi has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3314 2011-06-26 21:22:48 <epscy> oh i suppose
3315 2011-06-26 21:22:59 <epscy> if someone placed a really large order
3316 2011-06-26 21:23:17 <epscy> they were all fairly small amounts as well
3317 2011-06-26 21:23:20 <soap> ie a single large volume bid gets fulfilled with all the low-volume asks until equilibrium is reached.
3318 2011-06-26 21:23:58 <epscy> well it is good to see mtgoc back anyway
3319 2011-06-26 21:24:18 <soap> look at the most recent string from mtgox in #bitcoin-watch.
3320 2011-06-26 21:24:22 <soap> that's all filling one order.
3321 2011-06-26 21:25:18 <epscy> aah i see
3322 2011-06-26 21:25:21 sshc has joined
3323 2011-06-26 21:25:35 <epscy> i just didn't know how to read bitcoin-market properly
3324 2011-06-26 21:25:40 pyros1 has joined
3325 2011-06-26 21:27:16 <dinox> has anyone here tried phantomcircuit's python bitcoin client?
3326 2011-06-26 21:27:33 <phantomcircuit> yes
3327 2011-06-26 21:27:41 <zamgo> heh
3328 2011-06-26 21:27:45 <dinox> aaa, there we have you
3329 2011-06-26 21:28:39 <dinox> Then you probably know what type script in run(script) should be in script.py?
3330 2011-06-26 21:28:54 <phantomcircuit> scripting isn't fully supported
3331 2011-06-26 21:29:19 <phantomcircuit> in fact the script parsing destroys some data you need later
3332 2011-06-26 21:29:38 <dinox> aha
3333 2011-06-26 21:30:07 <dinox> do you have any dev code I may look at? anything that's not on your github?
3334 2011-06-26 21:30:21 DavidSJ_ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ_)
3335 2011-06-26 21:30:41 <phantomcircuit> dinox, everything i did is in the repo
3336 2011-06-26 21:30:49 <phantomcircuit> there are other branches but they're all old
3337 2011-06-26 21:31:33 Raccoon has joined
3338 2011-06-26 21:31:42 <Titeuf_87> phantomcircuit, I found your client earlier this afternoon and saw you used sqlite. How does that work out performance-wise?
3339 2011-06-26 21:31:47 <conjre> Does anyone have any good information regarding the amount of floating point operations and the creation of hashtags
3340 2011-06-26 21:32:07 <sipa> floating point operations? none
3341 2011-06-26 21:32:18 <gmaxwell> What sipa said.
3342 2011-06-26 21:32:21 <sipa> hashtags... are talking about twitter?
3343 2011-06-26 21:32:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: still no floating point involved. ;)
3344 2011-06-26 21:32:52 <jrmithdobbs> new project announcement: MIX-compatible bitcoind!
3345 2011-06-26 21:33:00 <jrmithdobbs> if you thought endian swapping was bad now!
3346 2011-06-26 21:33:15 <sipa> ...
3347 2011-06-26 21:33:20 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: step (1) write a x86 VM for MIX.
3348 2011-06-26 21:33:26 <jrmithdobbs> lol
3349 2011-06-26 21:33:35 <jrmithdobbs> actually
3350 2011-06-26 21:33:38 <jrmithdobbs> that would probably be easier
3351 2011-06-26 21:34:29 <phantomcircuit> Titeuf_87, like 50% of the work on it was getting sqlite to work with synchronous transactions on
3352 2011-06-26 21:34:44 mctrader has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3353 2011-06-26 21:34:53 <phantomcircuit> Titeuf_87, it actually works just fine so long as you only have a single concurrent client
3354 2011-06-26 21:34:58 mctrader has joined
3355 2011-06-26 21:35:18 <Titeuf_87> phantomcircuit, did you try downloading the whole blockchain yet using it?
3356 2011-06-26 21:35:20 BaltarNZ has joined
3357 2011-06-26 21:35:28 <phantomcircuit> fundamentally it's just as fast as mysql/postgresql for a single client because the bottle neck is disk latency
3358 2011-06-26 21:35:43 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: even easier, write mixcode to implement combinatorial logic. Find x86 verilog, compile to RTL...
3359 2011-06-26 21:35:44 <phantomcircuit> Titeuf_87, yeah it'll download the entire block chain reasonably quickly
3360 2011-06-26 21:36:02 <Titeuf_87> ok, so it can be done then :)
3361 2011-06-26 21:36:15 <Titeuf_87> I was playing around earlier with my own implementation, but it's really slow.
3362 2011-06-26 21:36:20 <phantomcircuit> heh
3363 2011-06-26 21:36:24 <phantomcircuit> the key is to batch things
3364 2011-06-26 21:36:43 <phantomcircuit> with sqlite you can get only a couple dozen transactions/second
3365 2011-06-26 21:36:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's just.... evil
3366 2011-06-26 21:36:57 <phantomcircuit> so if you have auto commit on you'll never finish
3367 2011-06-26 21:36:58 mctrader has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3368 2011-06-26 21:36:59 <jrmithdobbs> i like it.
3369 2011-06-26 21:37:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, there is no need to have one block == one transaction with fsync.
3370 2011-06-26 21:37:16 <Titeuf_87> my first attempt was just writing every block (including its transactions) and then commit
3371 2011-06-26 21:37:26 <Titeuf_87> but that doesnt' work for the initial blockchain download
3372 2011-06-26 21:37:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, worse you end up with 1 (bitcoin) transactions == 1 fsync
3373 2011-06-26 21:37:34 <phantomcircuit> which is just hilariously slow
3374 2011-06-26 21:37:37 <Titeuf_87> yeah
3375 2011-06-26 21:38:10 <dinox> phantomcircuit: do you plan any mor dev on bitcoin-alt?
3376 2011-06-26 21:38:14 <dinox> more*
3377 2011-06-26 21:38:29 <coderrr> on linux pthread_self() should report the calling therad id correct ?
3378 2011-06-26 21:39:22 <phantomcircuit> i hadn't but i might be convinced otherwise
3379 2011-06-26 21:39:26 <marioxcc> coderrr: man page summary reads 'pthread_self - obtain ID of the calling thread'
3380 2011-06-26 21:39:35 <jrmithdobbs> coderrr: yes
3381 2011-06-26 21:39:35 <marioxcc> MIYF!
3382 2011-06-26 21:39:45 rtward has left ()
3383 2011-06-26 21:39:54 <coderrr> yea thats where i started, just double checking
3384 2011-06-26 21:40:12 <coderrr> debugging some realy weird csection behavior
3385 2011-06-26 21:41:25 <dinox> phantomcircuit: I'll try to implement tx signing, would be nice if you could send transactions with it
3386 2011-06-26 21:41:56 <dinox> but exactly what did you mean to input in script.py?
3387 2011-06-26 21:42:13 <marioxcc> does bitcoin stores separate databases for blocks and the blockindex?
3388 2011-06-26 21:42:14 <phantomcircuit> dinox, well first of all, you'd need to make it so the parsing doesn't clobber all push ops to OP_PUSH
3389 2011-06-26 21:42:26 alystair has joined
3390 2011-06-26 21:42:32 <marioxcc> there is blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat (which is a BDB file)
3391 2011-06-26 21:42:44 <sipa> blk0001.dat is just the block concatenated
3392 2011-06-26 21:42:57 <sipa> blkindex contains index positions into blk0001.dat
3393 2011-06-26 21:43:01 <sipa> for transactions and blocks
3394 2011-06-26 21:43:02 <phantomcircuit> dinox, the script from transactions input/output
3395 2011-06-26 21:43:11 <marioxcc> ok, that's what I supposed
3396 2011-06-26 21:43:18 <marioxcc> seems redundant anyway, don't it?
3397 2011-06-26 21:43:43 <sipa> no
3398 2011-06-26 21:44:01 <sipa> well, yes, it is redundant
3399 2011-06-26 21:44:15 <sipa> as you can calculate blkindex.dat from blk0001.dat
3400 2011-06-26 21:44:19 <marioxcc> what I mean is, ¿why to store a block index and a block database?
3401 2011-06-26 21:44:32 <dinox> phantomcircuit: sure, but I cant fiqure out how it's meant to be sent to run()
3402 2011-06-26 21:44:36 <marioxcc> can't it store the blocks in a signgle database?
3403 2011-06-26 21:44:41 <marioxcc> would it be inefficient?
3404 2011-06-26 21:44:44 <marioxcc> *singlew
3405 2011-06-26 21:44:46 <marioxcc> *single
3406 2011-06-26 21:44:47 <marioxcc> sorry
3407 2011-06-26 21:45:10 <BlueMatt> blk* + blkindex are, for all intents and purposes a single database
3408 2011-06-26 21:45:22 <phantomcircuit> dinox, bytes()
3409 2011-06-26 21:45:23 <BlueMatt> think about other dbs, they store raw data and indexes in multiple files
3410 2011-06-26 21:45:32 <phantomcircuit> wait no
3411 2011-06-26 21:45:50 <phantomcircuit> dinox, a parsed list of tuples
3412 2011-06-26 21:45:51 sathyabhat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3413 2011-06-26 21:46:10 sathyabhat has joined
3414 2011-06-26 21:46:16 <Titeuf_87> dinox, I've posted some sample code on the forums that checks the script of a single tx, if you need an example
3415 2011-06-26 21:46:19 <dinox> ah, like (opcode, data)?
3416 2011-06-26 21:46:31 <dinox> Titeuf_87: nice, you have a link?
3417 2011-06-26 21:46:34 <Titeuf_87> it uses m2crypto library to check the signature
3418 2011-06-26 21:46:35 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: AFAIK BDB common practice is to store "raw" data as the value instead of an offset to another file
3419 2011-06-26 21:46:36 <gmaxwell> Though because they are split across multiple files it's basically impossible to prude deadblocks from the block files.
3420 2011-06-26 21:46:42 <dinox> I have googled this like crazy
3421 2011-06-26 21:46:44 <Titeuf_87> dinox, http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18051.0
3422 2011-06-26 21:46:46 <gmaxwell> er prune.
3423 2011-06-26 21:47:07 <sipa> sure, we'll need to move to another storage format if we want pruning
3424 2011-06-26 21:47:12 oozyburglar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3425 2011-06-26 21:47:41 Tamo has joined
3426 2011-06-26 21:47:42 <gmaxwell> It would be kinda nice if it had one file for blocks >120 blocks old, which it moves things into and then deletes files with newer blocks.
3427 2011-06-26 21:47:51 <BlueMatt> marioxcc: yep, cant say why satoshi did it the way he did, I was just pointing out that its not redundant to have an index plus the data
3428 2011-06-26 21:47:55 <gmaxwell> so you'd just end up with duplicate storage of the most recent stuff.
3429 2011-06-26 21:47:59 <Titeuf_87> dinox, it's more of a proof of concept than something that works well, but shows one possible way it can be done
3430 2011-06-26 21:48:08 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: thanks you very much
3431 2011-06-26 21:48:34 <marioxcc> <gmaxwell> Though because they are split across multiple files it's basically impossible to prude deadblocks from the block files. <- are you replying to my question?
3432 2011-06-26 21:48:41 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: afaict he did it because it was easy
3433 2011-06-26 21:48:51 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: hehe
3434 2011-06-26 21:48:54 <marioxcc> ok
3435 2011-06-26 21:49:03 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: no, more to 14:43 <@BlueMatt> blk* + blkindex are, for all intents and purposes a single database
3436 2011-06-26 21:49:12 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: ok
3437 2011-06-26 21:49:14 <gmaxwell> It's a single database, but it can't support deletion.
3438 2011-06-26 21:49:16 <dinox> Titeuf_87: nice
3439 2011-06-26 21:49:24 <gmaxwell> Because there is no atomic write across the files.
3440 2011-06-26 21:49:34 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: or several kinds of useful searches without a full table scan
3441 2011-06-26 21:49:42 <dinox> phantomcircuit: ok, like [(opcode, data), ...] ?
3442 2011-06-26 21:49:47 <zamgo> blockchain 2 mysql hmm
3443 2011-06-26 21:49:48 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats just a product of what gets indexed.
3444 2011-06-26 21:50:03 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: right and indexing more is hard because of the format
3445 2011-06-26 21:50:28 <phantomcircuit> dinox, yes
3446 2011-06-26 21:50:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: hm? you index (data, byteoffset), done.
3447 2011-06-26 21:51:25 mineority has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!)
3448 2011-06-26 21:51:47 hvala has joined
3449 2011-06-26 21:53:06 hvala has quit (Client Quit)
3450 2011-06-26 21:54:58 <marioxcc> another question
3451 2011-06-26 21:55:08 <marioxcc> would there be blk0002.dat and such?
3452 2011-06-26 21:56:22 el_bb has joined
3453 2011-06-26 21:56:52 <sipa> yes
3454 2011-06-26 21:57:01 <sipa> if we pass 1GB
3455 2011-06-26 21:57:57 <marioxcc> seems like you're familiar with the code sipa, are the files documented somewhere (other than in the code itself)?
3456 2011-06-26 21:59:17 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
3457 2011-06-26 21:59:53 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3458 2011-06-26 22:00:31 dissipate has joined
3459 2011-06-26 22:00:31 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
3460 2011-06-26 22:00:31 dissipate has joined
3461 2011-06-26 22:00:35 lumos has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3462 2011-06-26 22:00:38 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
3463 2011-06-26 22:00:38 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #33: FIXED in 47 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/33/
3464 2011-06-26 22:00:43 TheZimm has quit (Quit: When will we learn?)
3465 2011-06-26 22:01:00 <BlueMatt> FINALLY
3466 2011-06-26 22:01:49 <phantomcircuit> lol did that take 47 minutes to build?
3467 2011-06-26 22:02:03 <BlueMatt> it downloads a ton of the chain, just to check
3468 2011-06-26 22:02:21 caedes has joined
3469 2011-06-26 22:02:21 caedes has quit (Changing host)
3470 2011-06-26 22:02:21 caedes has joined
3471 2011-06-26 22:02:26 <BlueMatt> its not bitcoin, its the testset, which only downloads a bit of the chain, but is there to make sure its not segfaulting or smth
3472 2011-06-26 22:02:27 Strom- has joined
3473 2011-06-26 22:02:36 <BlueMatt> (as it was)
3474 2011-06-26 22:03:22 lorenzoIT has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3475 2011-06-26 22:04:15 Strom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3476 2011-06-26 22:06:34 <zamgo> speaking of testnet... http://blockexplorer.com/testnet hasn't updated in 1/2 day+
3477 2011-06-26 22:06:44 <zamgo> bitcoind go boom?
3478 2011-06-26 22:07:07 <zamgo> actually.. all weekend down
3479 2011-06-26 22:07:14 <jrmithdobbs> whoever was mining consistently stopped
3480 2011-06-26 22:07:14 <jrmithdobbs> haha
3481 2011-06-26 22:08:42 <diki> does anybody know of a recent block that had a very low nonce?
3482 2011-06-26 22:10:38 <diki> i mean almost every block i see was found with a very high nonce
3483 2011-06-26 22:10:45 Gonzago has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3484 2011-06-26 22:10:52 <diki> a nonce that didn't require the miner start from 0 and increment
3485 2011-06-26 22:11:34 <agath> no matter what number you start from, you have the same chances of hitting the right nonce.
3486 2011-06-26 22:11:45 <diki> doesnt matter
3487 2011-06-26 22:11:51 <diki> even if it's placebo effect
3488 2011-06-26 22:11:57 <agath> it's placebo effect :)
3489 2011-06-26 22:14:14 <diki> the only thing stopping me from changing the initial nonce to a higher one is that i don't know neither python nor how to compile it
3490 2011-06-26 22:14:32 kW_ has joined
3491 2011-06-26 22:14:57 <diki> nor do i know which file has the code of the nonce in phoenix
3492 2011-06-26 22:16:57 <diki> erm...bitcoin.org is dead
3493 2011-06-26 22:17:04 <diki> Error 503 Service Unavailable
3494 2011-06-26 22:17:04 <diki> Service Unavailable
3495 2011-06-26 22:17:04 <diki> Guru Meditation
3496 2011-06-26 22:17:45 <zamgo> hmmm Amiga
3497 2011-06-26 22:17:58 <agath> It's more than a decade since I saw last Guru Meditation...
3498 2011-06-26 22:18:14 <zamgo> Guru Meditation Error.. Commodore Company Missing
3499 2011-06-26 22:18:18 bx_ has joined
3500 2011-06-26 22:18:29 <agath> I learned programming on the Amiga at 12
3501 2011-06-26 22:19:00 <bx_> need one more solid dev willing to work for % or for bitcoins.. message me if you're experienced and interested in contributing ideas to the product. Already have venture capital, project structure, UI, gfx, etc.. Just need someone web-devs to bring it together. Pm me! Thanks :)
3502 2011-06-26 22:19:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: btw, i think the only hard part of emulating 386 on MIX would be the mmu
3503 2011-06-26 22:19:29 <jrmithdobbs> lol
3504 2011-06-26 22:19:32 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3505 2011-06-26 22:19:34 <jrmithdobbs> why am i actually looking into this
3506 2011-06-26 22:19:39 duncant has quit (Quit: leaving)
3507 2011-06-26 22:19:46 <minus> guru meditation is common again
3508 2011-06-26 22:19:52 <minus> with load balancers i think it was
3509 2011-06-26 22:20:19 <jrmithdobbs> ya i've seen it pop up a few times as a meme recently
3510 2011-06-26 22:20:22 <minus> ar
3511 2011-06-26 22:20:31 <minus> guru meditation for me too
3512 2011-06-26 22:20:34 <minus> on sourceforge
3513 2011-06-26 22:20:47 joepie91 has joined
3514 2011-06-26 22:20:56 <minus> varnish, so it's not a load balancer but more a cache
3515 2011-06-26 22:21:22 orbiting has joined
3516 2011-06-26 22:21:54 <minus> does anyone happen to know a good irc client (non-terminal, preferrably with python scripting)?
3517 2011-06-26 22:22:37 <denisx> phoenix miner does not support LP requests?
3518 2011-06-26 22:23:00 <diki> it does
3519 2011-06-26 22:23:44 <denisx> when I use poclbm I see requests to /LP, but not with phoenix
3520 2011-06-26 22:24:04 <diki> [26/06/2011 23:10:31] LP: New work pushed
3521 2011-06-26 22:24:05 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3522 2011-06-26 22:24:06 joepie91 has quit (2!~joepie91@s514735fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3523 2011-06-26 22:24:30 <minus> i wonder if websockets will be used :D
3524 2011-06-26 22:24:37 <minus> instead of LP
3525 2011-06-26 22:26:29 <jrmithdobbs> why
3526 2011-06-26 22:26:43 <jrmithdobbs> you shouldn't be running a miner from anywhere that blocks everything but port 80 anyways
3527 2011-06-26 22:28:14 <Blitzboom> i get "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'DbException'" for bitcoind
3528 2011-06-26 22:28:16 * diki still wonders how to compile python
3529 2011-06-26 22:28:19 <Blitzboom> at windows 7
3530 2011-06-26 22:28:27 <jrmithdobbs> or was that just a "i like saying buzzwords" comment?
3531 2011-06-26 22:28:28 <Blitzboom> anyone know why?
3532 2011-06-26 22:28:56 piggybank has quit ()
3533 2011-06-26 22:29:07 Marcel has left (H`!~user@router2.hsdev.com|"ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
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3535 2011-06-26 22:30:15 EPiSKiNG has joined
3536 2011-06-26 22:30:17 <prof7bit> <minus> does anyone happen to know a good irc client (non-terminal, preferrably with python scripting)?  <-- xchat has python scripting
3537 2011-06-26 22:30:35 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3538 2011-06-26 22:30:40 <minus> xchat fucekd up
3539 2011-06-26 22:31:08 <minus> what i'm finding strange that there is no single irc client written in python
3540 2011-06-26 22:31:21 <diki> big deal
3541 2011-06-26 22:31:40 <minus> well the idea behind it is i wanna customize the client
3542 2011-06-26 22:31:42 <prof7bit> i'm sure there is one. 100% sure
3543 2011-06-26 22:31:56 <minus> i found PiRC on sf.net, but there's no code
3544 2011-06-26 22:32:13 germanMNY has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2)
3545 2011-06-26 22:32:18 <minus> writing one shouldnt be that hard, with libirc
3546 2011-06-26 22:32:25 <prof7bit> i once started to write one but never completed it
3547 2011-06-26 22:32:49 <gmaxwell> err. any idea why a getnewaddress just took about 20 seconds for me?
3548 2011-06-26 22:33:13 <minus> iowait?
3549 2011-06-26 22:33:35 eamon has joined
3550 2011-06-26 22:33:46 <eamon> does anyone know any bitcoin escrow service?
3551 2011-06-26 22:33:46 <gmaxwell> Perhaps. I did two in a row, the first was instant. the second took a while.
3552 2011-06-26 22:33:49 EPiSKiNG has quit (Client Quit)
3553 2011-06-26 22:34:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you using rpc-asyrcio patches?
3554 2011-06-26 22:35:07 <jrmithdobbs> async no asyrc
3555 2011-06-26 22:35:11 <prof7bit> minus: http://code.google.com/p/p7irc/  <-- incomplete, feel free to convert it into something usable
3556 2011-06-26 22:35:19 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, this node is stock.
3557 2011-06-26 22:35:38 <minus> prof7bit: thanks, i'll take a look
3558 2011-06-26 22:35:58 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: but it also has no other rpc activity ongoing.
3559 2011-06-26 22:36:07 <prof7bit> its probably totally ugly code. i did this out of pure boredom
3560 2011-06-26 22:36:11 <minus> looking at gui.py it looks like a mess ;)
3561 2011-06-26 22:36:16 <prof7bit> and never really completed it
3562 2011-06-26 22:36:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: probably something had a mutex on keypool or wallet.dat
3563 2011-06-26 22:36:42 <minus> well, it's at least something to start at/copy from :D
3564 2011-06-26 22:37:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: or maybe the second one triggered keypool refresh?
3565 2011-06-26 22:37:14 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|AFK
3566 2011-06-26 22:37:17 <bx_> need one more solid dev willing to work for % or for bitcoins.. message me if you're experienced and interested in contributing ideas to the product. Already have venture capital, project structure, UI, gfx, etc.. Just need someone web-devs to bring it together. Pm me! Thanks :)
3567 2011-06-26 22:37:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: 20 seconds seems to line up (a little on the high side, actually, but not much) with my tests on how fast bitcoind proper can gen keys
3568 2011-06-26 22:37:56 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what's debug.log say?
3569 2011-06-26 22:38:08 <gmaxwell> good call.. lemme look
3570 2011-06-26 22:38:24 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3571 2011-06-26 22:38:35 Gekz has joined
3572 2011-06-26 22:38:35 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
3573 2011-06-26 22:38:35 Gekz has joined
3574 2011-06-26 22:38:51 kermit has joined
3575 2011-06-26 22:39:07 <prof7bit> minus: if you like it, i could need some 0.01BTC (but i can tell you the address only tomorrow, client closed)
3576 2011-06-26 22:39:07 <minus> prof7bit: i see you're german :D
3577 2011-06-26 22:39:11 abragin has quit ()
3578 2011-06-26 22:39:17 <prof7bit> yes
3579 2011-06-26 22:39:28 [Tycho] has joined
3580 2011-06-26 22:39:33 <minus> how about 1000 testnet coins :P
3581 2011-06-26 22:39:39 <prof7bit> where did you see this?
3582 2011-06-26 22:39:49 <minus> strings_de.py
3583 2011-06-26 22:39:52 kW_ has joined
3584 2011-06-26 22:39:56 Gonzago has joined
3585 2011-06-26 22:40:07 <prof7bit> ah :-)
3586 2011-06-26 22:40:10 <minus> oh, and your host ofc
3587 2011-06-26 22:40:20 <zamgo> accepting testnet coins :)    mgmQJQDPwoPpbZaBLnANBuavxmaSWwmFqx
3588 2011-06-26 22:40:30 <BlueMatt> ok...its that time again...need testnet coins to test new wallet encryption :)
3589 2011-06-26 22:40:34 <BlueMatt> mjGw5LLnS4izyvuxV7K6LM2Kx5X6AwvMah
3590 2011-06-26 22:40:35 <minus> zamgo: how many do you need?
3591 2011-06-26 22:40:44 <zamgo> few hundred is fine
3592 2011-06-26 22:40:55 <zamgo> it's testing a public wallet
3593 2011-06-26 22:40:58 <BlueMatt> minus: I just need a tx, so any amount works for me
3594 2011-06-26 22:41:24 <zamgo> anyone want namecoin testnet in return?
3595 2011-06-26 22:41:54 <minus> done and done
3596 2011-06-26 22:42:05 <BlueMatt> how many blocks are there on testnet, if bbe hasn't updated apparently?
3597 2011-06-26 22:42:15 <minus> 26.9k
3598 2011-06-26 22:42:21 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you're gonna have to put up a miner to get them
3599 2011-06-26 22:42:25 <minus> 26969
3600 2011-06-26 22:42:36 <BlueMatt> oh yea that too, someone want to testnet mine?
3601 2011-06-26 22:42:47 <minus> BlueMatt: 133.33333337 for you, 13.37 for zamgo
3602 2011-06-26 22:42:53 <zamgo> thanks
3603 2011-06-26 22:43:05 <marioxcc> are testnet coins worth something?
3604 2011-06-26 22:43:06 ionspin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3605 2011-06-26 22:43:09 <minus> i mined 2600 on testnet today
3606 2011-06-26 22:43:11 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: no
3607 2011-06-26 22:43:12 <BlueMatt> thanks
3608 2011-06-26 22:43:13 <minus> no marioxcc
3609 2011-06-26 22:43:14 <prof7bit> is testnet not as old as bitcoin net?
3610 2011-06-26 22:43:16 <zamgo> sending some to bluematt also
3611 2011-06-26 22:43:28 <minus> testnet was reset for 0.3.20
3612 2011-06-26 22:43:49 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs, minus: ok
3613 2011-06-26 22:44:08 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: it's exactly what the name implies, a test network for testing code changes ;p
3614 2011-06-26 22:44:11 <zamgo> 3.2101234 to bluematt
3615 2011-06-26 22:44:14 <minus> i'll mine on the testnet again now, so the tx will get confirmed
3616 2011-06-26 22:44:27 <zamgo> 26970 testnet blocks
3617 2011-06-26 22:44:46 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: yet, someone could be paying a minute ammount for them
3618 2011-06-26 22:45:09 <BlueMatt> thanks guys
3619 2011-06-26 22:45:11 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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3623 2011-06-26 22:45:28 <zamgo> i'd pay 1 BTC for 26971*50 Testnet coins
3624 2011-06-26 22:45:35 <zamgo> ie: ALL of them
3625 2011-06-26 22:45:40 <prof7bit> minus: if you are looking for some even more confusing and messy code from that also has remotely to do with chatting then look at this: http://code.google.com/p/torchat/
3626 2011-06-26 22:46:16 <BlueMatt> yay ~/.bitcoin on ramfs downloads blocks much faster :)
3627 2011-06-26 22:46:18 <prof7bit> but this is not irc. this is my own protocol
3628 2011-06-26 22:46:21 <zamgo> minus: how many mhs are you sending to testnet now?
3629 2011-06-26 22:46:36 <minus> 345
3630 2011-06-26 22:46:45 kiba has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3631 2011-06-26 22:46:51 <zamgo> that'll do
3632 2011-06-26 22:46:52 <minus> if i downgrade to 2.1 sdk & overclock i can do more
3633 2011-06-26 22:47:01 <minus> but cant be arsed
3634 2011-06-26 22:47:08 <marioxcc> megahash/s?
3635 2011-06-26 22:47:10 <marioxcc> please don't use mhs
3636 2011-06-26 22:47:18 Sebastan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3637 2011-06-26 22:47:23 <marioxcc> it's confussing with mhz
3638 2011-06-26 22:47:28 <minus> MHS = memory hacking software :D
3639 2011-06-26 22:47:29 <marioxcc> well, maybe not, nevermind
3640 2011-06-26 22:47:33 <zamgo> heh
3641 2011-06-26 22:47:35 <marioxcc> minus: ok
3642 2011-06-26 22:47:54 <minus> prof7bit: do you know gtk?
3643 2011-06-26 22:48:04 <prof7bit> only wx
3644 2011-06-26 22:48:11 <minus> kk
3645 2011-06-26 22:48:13 aristidesfl has joined
3646 2011-06-26 22:48:29 <minus> wanted to ask you how they compare if you did, i only know a bit gtk
3647 2011-06-26 22:48:39 aristidesfl has quit (Client Quit)
3648 2011-06-26 22:48:54 <diki> so...where can i change the initial nonce in phoenix?
3649 2011-06-26 22:49:01 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3650 2011-06-26 22:49:04 aristidesfl has joined
3651 2011-06-26 22:49:50 <BlueMatt> psa: when done with testnet coins, always send them back to the faucet (miGuMc6qtVEKS6Pf1jKddaa81DeHjMzkpB) so that others can mess with them
3652 2011-06-26 22:50:00 <marioxcc> it's me or tradehill numbers smell like floating point roundoff error?
3653 2011-06-26 22:50:09 <prof7bit> by the time i discovered wx i was still on windows and when i switched to linux i continued using wx, never looked into GTK or Qt. The only other toolkit i know a bit about is Lazarus LCL (similar to Borland VCL)
3654 2011-06-26 22:50:09 <marioxcc> 15.00199998, 16.01100002
3655 2011-06-26 22:50:25 <BlueMatt> marioxcc: bots can do that often
3656 2011-06-26 22:50:54 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: true
3657 2011-06-26 22:52:16 Strom- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3658 2011-06-26 22:52:22 Strom has joined
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3660 2011-06-26 22:53:24 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of testnet, anyone got a client with sipa's showwallet on testnet? I want to give someone a batch of a bunch of privkeys and see if they import
3661 2011-06-26 22:53:25 <prof7bit> actually i like wx quite a lot. I never missed anything, only sporadic problems when something behaves subtly different between li9nux and windows but this can often easily worked around and most of these differences are well documented.
3662 2011-06-26 22:53:26 suriv_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3663 2011-06-26 22:53:38 zamgo has left ()
3664 2011-06-26 22:53:46 <minus> well that's the good thing with wx
3665 2011-06-26 22:53:47 <jrmithdobbs> and spit back out expected address
3666 2011-06-26 22:53:53 <minus> for gtk or qt you need large libs for windows
3667 2011-06-26 22:53:59 <prof7bit> yes
3668 2011-06-26 22:54:00 Obehsh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3669 2011-06-26 22:54:03 suriv has joined
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3671 2011-06-26 22:54:12 <marioxcc> are there published bot software for playing the market?
3672 2011-06-26 22:54:22 <marioxcc> *is there
3673 2011-06-26 22:54:32 <prof7bit> the fact that it is able to use native widgets on all platforms is a big plus for wx
3674 2011-06-26 22:54:44 lumos has left ()
3675 2011-06-26 22:54:51 <minus> yeah
3676 2011-06-26 22:55:02 <minus> does it auto-scale like gtk?
3677 2011-06-26 22:55:07 <marioxcc> prof7bit: only if you use several platforms, which is not univerally true
3678 2011-06-26 22:55:11 <minus> like, use up all space in a window
3679 2011-06-26 22:55:43 <prof7bit> and once you are familiar with the sizers it is not so dificult anymore to design a gui (also wth the help of wxglade)
3680 2011-06-26 22:55:59 <minus> oh it does glade, nice
3681 2011-06-26 22:56:33 <minus> build gui with gtk builder, use wxglade, profit!
3682 2011-06-26 22:56:38 <prof7bit> wxglade will emit ready to use python code
3683 2011-06-26 22:56:57 <diki> the way i look at it, phoenix seems to start from nonce 64
3684 2011-06-26 22:56:59 <diki> is that true?
3685 2011-06-26 22:57:18 <marioxcc> diki: phoenix? :)
3686 2011-06-26 22:57:23 <diki> yes
3687 2011-06-26 22:57:25 <jrmithdobbs> diki: #bitcoin-mining
3688 2011-06-26 22:57:54 corecode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3689 2011-06-26 22:58:21 <prof7bit> understanding the sizers and the philosophy behind them takes a while but once the moment of enlightenment comes it is all easy.
3690 2011-06-26 22:58:38 <diki> jrmith, diki is already there
3691 2011-06-26 22:58:43 El-Loco has quit ()
3692 2011-06-26 22:58:49 <diki> but my question is still -dev related
3693 2011-06-26 22:58:58 corecode has joined
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3695 2011-06-26 22:59:35 <dD0T> BlueMatt: Just took a peek at your last patch. Mini suggestion: You should add a verify step to setting/changing the password. Since wxGetPasswordFromUser, unless I misread the docs, doesn't do this on its own and stars the displayed value it would be very easy to typo and loose access.
3696 2011-06-26 23:00:01 <BlueMatt> just changed that
3697 2011-06-26 23:00:05 <dD0T> oh, good
3698 2011-06-26 23:00:17 <BlueMatt> it gets checked in keystore, and just changed GetPasswordFromUser to return bool
3699 2011-06-26 23:02:30 <upb> 26 23:10 < xtalmath> not good enough, I ask for a collision X,Y SHA256(X)=SHA256(Y)
3700 2011-06-26 23:02:33 <upb> ^- X = Y SHA256(X) = SHA256(Y)
3701 2011-06-26 23:02:34 <upb> haha
3702 2011-06-26 23:03:02 <marioxcc> upb: ???
3703 2011-06-26 23:03:21 <marioxcc> I don't even find any message from xtalmath
3704 2011-06-26 23:03:41 <upb> oh it was 3 hrs ago
3705 2011-06-26 23:03:46 <marioxcc> and, yes, that's the definition of a hash collision, but he forgot X /= Y :)
3706 2011-06-26 23:03:48 <upb> and he seems quit
3707 2011-06-26 23:03:51 <upb> indeed :)
3708 2011-06-26 23:04:01 <marioxcc> what's <upb> ^- X = Y SHA256(X) = SHA256(Y) supposed to mean?
3709 2011-06-26 23:04:07 <dD0T> marioxcc: ++
3710 2011-06-26 23:04:18 <upb> i wanted to get all his btc!
3711 2011-06-26 23:04:22 <pasky> Does setaccount work for you in latest git?
3712 2011-06-26 23:04:42 <pasky> it seems to be no-op here
3713 2011-06-26 23:04:44 <upb> it means that for any X  SHA256(X) = SHA256(Y) when Y = X
3714 2011-06-26 23:05:09 <jrmithdobbs> upb: i like his inistance on bitcoin using a provable hash function leaving out that almost all of the provable hashes have been shown to be pretty weak from a cryptographic standpoint ;p
3715 2011-06-26 23:05:13 <marioxcc> upb: that's a weird notation, where did it came from?
3716 2011-06-26 23:05:31 <upb> marioxcc: dude its irc
3717 2011-06-26 23:05:52 ar4s has joined
3718 2011-06-26 23:05:53 <upb> '^-' is just an arrow pointing to his message
3719 2011-06-26 23:05:57 <upb> not some notation :)
3720 2011-06-26 23:06:03 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: playing with your rebase of showwallet onto walletclass
3721 2011-06-26 23:06:10 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: anything in particular you want me to look at?
3722 2011-06-26 23:06:22 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3723 2011-06-26 23:07:01 <marioxcc> upb: ∀x,y [<x=y>→<SHA256(X)=SHA256(Y)>]
3724 2011-06-26 23:07:12 <marioxcc> yeah
3725 2011-06-26 23:07:36 <marioxcc> you might be interested in http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/erc-tex.el BTW :)
3726 2011-06-26 23:08:06 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: erm, nevermind, what was the walletclass segfault fix? i need it so i can test it at all
3727 2011-06-26 23:08:54 <marioxcc> this is funny, sipa's latest message in the channel was 50 minutes ago and people is still adressing him :)
3728 2011-06-26 23:09:05 DukeOfURL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3729 2011-06-26 23:09:15 <minus> it's the faith in his return
3730 2011-06-26 23:09:22 <marioxcc> hehe
3731 2011-06-26 23:09:25 <gmaxwell> Speaking of SHA256 preimages, any comments on http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6428.msg283958#msg283958 ?
3732 2011-06-26 23:09:30 <minus> also, there's highlight windows
3733 2011-06-26 23:10:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ugh, the sign patch was signing the user input directly?
3734 2011-06-26 23:11:21 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: cryptographic primitives are usually the strongest link the chain when used properly
3735 2011-06-26 23:11:36 <marioxcc> the weakest link is the human, 99% of the time
3736 2011-06-26 23:11:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: also good luck convincing luke-jr to use anything but hex
3737 2011-06-26 23:11:40 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: initially, people yelled and then advocated "fixed string"+input,  later people advocated sender_addr+fixed_string+input
3738 2011-06-26 23:11:50 <jrmithdobbs> but
3739 2011-06-26 23:11:55 <jrmithdobbs> fixed_string does nothing
3740 2011-06-26 23:12:05 <jrmithdobbs> and sender_addr is still controllable to some extent
3741 2011-06-26 23:12:09 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yes, actually there was a huge weakness initially
3742 2011-06-26 23:12:55 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: because we normally sign SHA256(SHA256(TXN))  and it was signing SHA256(input)  so you make the input be SHA256(TXN) and congrats they just signed whatever txn you want.
3743 2011-06-26 23:13:10 <jrmithdobbs> lol
3744 2011-06-26 23:13:12 <gmaxwell> The fixed string solved that. (barring preimage attacks on SHA256)
3745 2011-06-26 23:13:27 Pinion has joined
3746 2011-06-26 23:13:34 <jrmithdobbs> ok so fixed_string at least fixed something, didn't think about that
3747 2011-06-26 23:13:45 <jrmithdobbs> could have just as easily been fixed by sha256(sha256())
3748 2011-06-26 23:13:52 <gmaxwell> But then bytecoin pointed out that you could search for collissions across all bitcoin signatures, thus adding the sending address as a salt.
3749 2011-06-26 23:14:11 Lenovo01 has joined
3750 2011-06-26 23:14:27 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: nah, sha256(sha256()) would have just let the attacker send a unhashed txn for you to hash. :)  sha256(sha256(sha256())) would have worked.
3751 2011-06-26 23:14:38 <jrmithdobbs> oh good point, lol
3752 2011-06-26 23:15:23 <jrmithdobbs> is there an advantage to fixed_string() vs sha256(sha256(sha256()))?
3753 2011-06-26 23:15:26 <marioxcc> "This is possibly the first cryptographic disadvantage of the double hashing scheme employed in bitcoin." <-- could someone explain it?
3754 2011-06-26 23:15:31 <jrmithdobbs> besides less computation?
3755 2011-06-26 23:15:35 <marioxcc> I don't get why double hashing is a flaw
3756 2011-06-26 23:15:36 <jrmithdobbs> (is that even an advantage?)
3757 2011-06-26 23:15:39 quellhorst has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3758 2011-06-26 23:15:40 <marioxcc> (altough is stupid, IMHO)
3759 2011-06-26 23:15:49 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: it's not a flaw
3760 2011-06-26 23:15:53 <jrmithdobbs> and it's not stupid
3761 2011-06-26 23:16:05 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: what's the problem he is talking about in http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6428.msg95449#msg95449?
3762 2011-06-26 23:16:06 <jrmithdobbs> it makes preimage attacks much harder
3763 2011-06-26 23:16:09 <gmaxwell> It's not stupid. In many cases its very helpful because it doubles the computational complexity of the hash.
3764 2011-06-26 23:16:19 <gmaxwell> (and will probably kill some sha256 weaknesses)
3765 2011-06-26 23:16:32 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: read the thread he explains it...
3766 2011-06-26 23:16:34 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: i merged the segfault fix already
3767 2011-06-26 23:16:37 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: or IRC, where I just explained it.
3768 2011-06-26 23:17:12 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: I readed the text, I will look your message
3769 2011-06-26 23:17:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: can you merge it into showwallet, or does it merge cleanly?
3770 2011-06-26 23:17:24 <marioxcc> anyway, I don't get the double hashing thing
3771 2011-06-26 23:17:35 <marioxcc> assume double hashing is stronger
3772 2011-06-26 23:17:39 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: so my concern is that paper shows that if you get two signatures, one of K and one of the modular inverse of K, you can recover the private key with a fair amount of computation. The hash makes this attack unrealistic, but I don't like it anyways, so I'm suggesting a sender selected nonce.
3773 2011-06-26 23:17:50 <marioxcc> then let's make a SHA256* which is double SHA256
3774 2011-06-26 23:17:57 <marioxcc> wait, we can do the same again
3775 2011-06-26 23:18:00 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: Thats what we've done.
3776 2011-06-26 23:18:07 <marioxcc> make SHA256** which is double SHA256*
3777 2011-06-26 23:18:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you meaner a signer selected nonce*
3778 2011-06-26 23:18:10 <marioxcc> ad infinitum
3779 2011-06-26 23:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> s/meaner/mean/
3780 2011-06-26 23:18:29 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: in general almost all attacks on iterated cryptographic structures are killed by additional rounds.
3781 2011-06-26 23:18:40 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: right.
3782 2011-06-26 23:18:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i agree with you, but what's the benefit of fixed_string vs sha256(sha256(sha256()))
3783 2011-06-26 23:18:57 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: indeed, but we usually can't afford infinite computational complexity.
3784 2011-06-26 23:19:10 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: complexity.
3785 2011-06-26 23:19:11 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: haven't tried that
3786 2011-06-26 23:19:18 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: why just SHA256* and not SHA256(100*)?
3787 2011-06-26 23:19:25 <marioxcc> why not 1000?
3788 2011-06-26 23:19:54 <marioxcc> I think NSA have decided SHA256(0*), so I don't see the point in adding more * just as you don't see the point in going from 1* to 100*
3789 2011-06-26 23:20:30 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: complexity. Also, when the designers were making the hash they had particular complexity targets and they went as tight against them as they could for the required security. When you can tolerate more complexity, doubling the hash makes sense.  If something breaks the double hash then it probably breaks 100x too.
3790 2011-06-26 23:20:53 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3791 2011-06-26 23:21:00 polipie has left ()
3792 2011-06-26 23:21:35 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: You can see this playing out in SHA-3 where the propoers have changed their round counts (mostly increasing them) as the process went on and their hash functions were 'too fast' compared to the competition and reduced round compromises were found.
3793 2011-06-26 23:21:58 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: ok, the former makes sense
3794 2011-06-26 23:22:08 <marioxcc> the later, yes, I'm following it :)
3795 2011-06-26 23:22:13 <gmaxwell> our 2x sha-256 has seriously frustrated fpga miners too, because it blows the gatecount for an unrolled miner out of what most cheap fpgas can do.
3796 2011-06-26 23:22:48 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: in any case, back to the weakness, do you see the weakness it creates?
3797 2011-06-26 23:22:56 <gmaxwell> (in the signing scheme)
3798 2011-06-26 23:23:26 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: actually I bookmarked the thread to read it later more slowy
3799 2011-06-26 23:23:43 <marioxcc> don't the double hashing impacts GPU on the same factor than FPGA?
3800 2011-06-26 23:23:55 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
3801 2011-06-26 23:24:11 <gmaxwell> The signature was signing sha256(message). Our transactions sign sha256(sha256(txn)). In the initial patch I could trick you into signing sha256(txn) and you've now created a bitcoin transaction of my devising (where I take all your money) and you can't even tell because the hash made it opaque.
3802 2011-06-26 23:24:58 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: ok, thanks
3803 2011-06-26 23:25:20 <marioxcc> have you a donation address?
3804 2011-06-26 23:25:32 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: no, the impact is more linear on the gpu. The FPGA should get a good speedup from being completely unrolled logic but can't because you run out of room. (well, it can but you need more expensive FPGAs)
3805 2011-06-26 23:25:44 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: 1mAAsbMECs2cDvzsyXSkBhM27riQ6AJRG
3806 2011-06-26 23:26:15 <jgarzik> sha256(message) should be avoided.  See HMAC.
3807 2011-06-26 23:27:15 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: I see, what about the ASIC?
3808 2011-06-26 23:27:41 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: that's what we're talking about, yes
3809 2011-06-26 23:27:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Yea, the thread got past sha256(message) and seemed to be settling on sha256(signing_address+fixed_string+message), and I recently posted suggesting that this isn't great either and sha256(nonce+fixed_string+message) would be superior for a couple reasons.
3810 2011-06-26 23:28:48 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: the economics are different there, and probably once you can afford to fab out something like that the additional size is not an issue. There are asic resistant hashes, however. (ones that require large amounts of memory thus producing very high gate or pin counts)
3811 2011-06-26 23:28:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: is the sign code externally trigerable?
3812 2011-06-26 23:28:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i haven't looked at that patch
3813 2011-06-26 23:29:04 <jrmithdobbs> triggerable
3814 2011-06-26 23:29:22 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's an RPC. The idea is that you could use it to prove ownership of an address, or configure things that only know you based on your address (e.g. eligius)
3815 2011-06-26 23:29:38 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: presumably people would eventually use it in automated contexts though.
3816 2011-06-26 23:29:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: right, but it can't be externally triggered?
3817 2011-06-26 23:29:49 <jrmithdobbs> oh, gotcha
3818 2011-06-26 23:30:24 <jrmithdobbs> ok ya, if it can be externally triggered sha256(sha256(sha256())) could be used as a cpu-resource dos
3819 2011-06-26 23:30:34 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: aha :)
3820 2011-06-26 23:30:54 <jrmithdobbs> i definitely agree on the signer-provided nonce vs using sender's address
3821 2011-06-26 23:31:50 <jrmithdobbs> although openssh's recent ecdsa fuckup should really make people think twice about enabling triggerable signing where unnecessary
3822 2011-06-26 23:31:59 <BlueMatt> how many chars in a bitcoin pubkey again?
3823 2011-06-26 23:32:24 <copumpkin> 20, I'd guess?
3824 2011-06-26 23:32:28 <copumpkin> I thought it was ripemd160?
3825 2011-06-26 23:32:38 * copumpkin has never actually counted
3826 2011-06-26 23:32:40 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: up to 32, let me check
3827 2011-06-26 23:32:50 <BlueMatt> no, I mean pubkey not address
3828 2011-06-26 23:32:55 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: pubkey, hash160, or address?
3829 2011-06-26 23:32:56 <copumpkin> oh, I see
3830 2011-06-26 23:33:00 <BlueMatt> ie output of key.GetPubKey()
3831 2011-06-26 23:33:04 <gmaxwell> Its 520 bits.
3832 2011-06-26 23:33:07 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: up to 34 according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
3833 2011-06-26 23:33:08 <BlueMatt> thanks
3834 2011-06-26 23:33:09 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3835 2011-06-26 23:33:19 <gmaxwell> gah no!
3836 2011-06-26 23:33:25 <marioxcc> no, no
3837 2011-06-26 23:33:27 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's zero padded 32bytes iirc
3838 2011-06-26 23:33:37 <gmaxwell> You're all answering addresses, not public keys.
3839 2011-06-26 23:33:40 <marioxcc> I totally mixed this conversation with another one
3840 2011-06-26 23:33:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no
3841 2011-06-26 23:33:45 ben36 has joined
3842 2011-06-26 23:33:46 <marioxcc> sorry, sorry
3843 2011-06-26 23:33:48 <gmaxwell> The public keys are 520 bits, thus 130 bytes in hex.
3844 2011-06-26 23:34:13  has joined
3845 2011-06-26 23:34:35 <BlueMatt> 520 sounds right...
3846 2011-06-26 23:35:20 <gmaxwell> (there is some compression scheme IIRC but it's patented by certicom)
3847 2011-06-26 23:35:31 <BlueMatt> no, 520 was right
3848 2011-06-26 23:35:43 <jrmithdobbs> ya 65 bytes
3849 2011-06-26 23:35:44 <BlueMatt> well there is a ton of constant crap we can strip first
3850 2011-06-26 23:35:47 <jrmithdobbs> just double checked
3851 2011-06-26 23:35:53 <jrmithdobbs> zero padded is important
3852 2011-06-26 23:36:45 <BlueMatt> not in this case for me
3853 2011-06-26 23:36:50 <jrmithdobbs> i was thinking of the privkey not pubkey
3854 2011-06-26 23:36:56 <gmaxwell> Also, you can recover the public key knowing a signature and an address... e.g. so we could make transactions a lot smaller. I dunno why this wasn't done in bitcoin originally. (perhaps patented? perhaps concern about the increased computational complexity?)
3855 2011-06-26 23:37:09 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3856 2011-06-26 23:37:26 <BlueMatt> because satoshi was lazy
3857 2011-06-26 23:37:34 <jrmithdobbs> haha
3858 2011-06-26 23:37:38 <BlueMatt> and it offers only marginal improvement
3859 2011-06-26 23:37:44 <jrmithdobbs> but not too lazy to implement retarded var size ints
3860 2011-06-26 23:37:45 <sipa> i think he didn'y
3861 2011-06-26 23:37:48 <sipa> know
3862 2011-06-26 23:37:48 <BlueMatt> no, no improvement
3863 2011-06-26 23:37:58 <gmaxwell> Well, saving 65 bytes off every txn ... also, the impact on multisig gets pretty big fast.
3864 2011-06-26 23:38:07 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3865 2011-06-26 23:38:09 <BlueMatt> doesnt it take longer to verify a tx?
3866 2011-06-26 23:38:20 <BlueMatt> isnt that what sipa said when he tried it?
3867 2011-06-26 23:38:23 <sipa> a bit
3868 2011-06-26 23:38:37 <BlueMatt> IIRC it was like 20-30% or smth?
3869 2011-06-26 23:38:39 Soak has quit ()
3870 2011-06-26 23:38:41 <BlueMatt> (which is a ton)
3871 2011-06-26 23:38:49 <gmaxwell> Yes. It would be a little slower, though it's not like we have the fastest possible ECDSA code already. ::shrugs::
3872 2011-06-26 23:38:50 bx_ has left ()
3873 2011-06-26 23:39:06 tonykay_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3874 2011-06-26 23:39:06 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the fix applies cleanly
3875 2011-06-26 23:39:13 <BlueMatt> true, but the point is, if we wanted too, we could speed it up, if we changed to that scheme we couldnt
3876 2011-06-26 23:39:25 <BlueMatt> well, we could, but never get back what we lost by switching
3877 2011-06-26 23:39:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well, we could speed up both, but the 20% (which sounds a bit high) would be lost forever.
3878 2011-06-26 23:39:44 DukeOfURL has joined
3879 2011-06-26 23:39:59 <BlueMatt> maybe it is, but still, just 10% could turn out to be a ton in the far future
3880 2011-06-26 23:40:19 <sipa> that's a small constant factor
3881 2011-06-26 23:40:26 <gmaxwell> perhaps, but a 25
3882 2011-06-26 23:40:36 <gmaxwell> % reduction in txn size could also be a ton in the far future.
3883 2011-06-26 23:40:41 <sipa> i believe it was 15%
3884 2011-06-26 23:41:07 <BlueMatt> true, but with tx purge and the movement towards thin clients, its only a difference to people who have a ton of disk space anyway
3885 2011-06-26 23:41:11 <BlueMatt> though maybe not infinite cpu
3886 2011-06-26 23:41:15 <BlueMatt> imho
3887 2011-06-26 23:41:38 <gmaxwell> well, you still have to transfer the data. You have to know your inputs to spend them.
3888 2011-06-26 23:41:58 <pasky> frankly, what's the point in making transactions smaller? it's not like the syntax fluff is more than a constant factor in size of block chain, it can shift implementation of sparse block chains by two or three months but nothing else
3889 2011-06-26 23:42:10 <gmaxwell> also, ecdsa validators on FPGAs should be pretty damn fast if you're ever worried about ecdsa performance.
3890 2011-06-26 23:42:10 <jrmithdobbs> ya it's not the storage but the line size that's the problem
3891 2011-06-26 23:42:28 <pasky> what's the issue with line size?
3892 2011-06-26 23:42:31 <gmaxwell> pasky: because the block chain is replicated a zillion fold on both disk and on the network.
3893 2011-06-26 23:42:43 <jrmithdobbs> right now with current live net blocks there are some single blocks that are so big that in combination with 1-3 other blocks they trigger the flood detection check
3894 2011-06-26 23:42:46 <gmaxwell> There will always need to be many full nodes.
3895 2011-06-26 23:42:56 <pasky> gmaxwell: so what? disk space is cheap and in this scale, network is too
3896 2011-06-26 23:43:09 <gmaxwell> pasky: yes, it could be 25% cheaper.
3897 2011-06-26 23:43:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sorry, I need to focus, though IMHO the tradeoff was picked rightly by satoshi (even if he didnt know)
3898 2011-06-26 23:43:25 <gmaxwell> And thats the single sig case, the improvement for multisig is greater.
3899 2011-06-26 23:43:31 <jrmithdobbs> that particular check can (and should be) fixed but the fact that single blocks are already big enough to expose the issue when we're nowhere near the max block size means that 25bytes/txn could really end up being important
3900 2011-06-26 23:43:59 <gmaxwell> In any case, I don't think it's a big deal either. I wasn't complaining only saying "I wonder"
3901 2011-06-26 23:44:45 <pasky> does blockexplorer get to know a transaction only when it gets in at least one block?
3902 2011-06-26 23:44:54 <jrmithdobbs> yes
3903 2011-06-26 23:44:57 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: saves 65 bytes per single sig transaction, since you can get the address from the input.
3904 2011-06-26 23:44:58 <pasky> good
3905 2011-06-26 23:45:19 <gmaxwell> which is about a quarter of the txn size.
3906 2011-06-26 23:45:21 * pasky just implemented new RPC command: ./bitcoind sendexact pasky \[\"b8901ec31447e1a21810a8aaaa7c4067cbc09dd32bdb0d31630bfaa33e179ca4\",\"74a5bbccbcca19839cfa162af8e60454910e6bf1aee3d3cbae4dd161ea42a3f8\"\] \{\"1A8RWitUmR8YyLRtuYbhUENmqEzRrj1sWp\":0.1995,\"12wLRyfsR8VrSmQJ59S1FiasZU95TVCWYx\":0.91622947\} 0
3907 2011-06-26 23:45:22 <diki> so..i found out that OUTPUT_SIZE = 0x40 is the initial nonce
3908 2011-06-26 23:45:41 <diki> at least that's where code follup led me to
3909 2011-06-26 23:45:48 <diki> *followup
3910 2011-06-26 23:45:59 <gmaxwell> pasky: is that picking inputs then outputs? whats the 0?
3911 2011-06-26 23:46:31 <gmaxwell> pasky: have you also done a rpc to list all the inputs in your wallet? (is there one already?)
3912 2011-06-26 23:46:40 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
3913 2011-06-26 23:46:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: listtransactions shows that, no?
3914 2011-06-26 23:46:54 <pasky> gmaxwell: 0 is the txfee
3915 2011-06-26 23:46:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: dumpwallet :o
3916 2011-06-26 23:47:00 <sipa> :p
3917 2011-06-26 23:47:32 <gmaxwell> pasky: hm. Why isn't the tx fee just implied by the excess input?
3918 2011-06-26 23:48:09 <sipa> i suppose he creates change still automatically
3919 2011-06-26 23:48:10 samlander has left ()
3920 2011-06-26 23:48:51 unclemantis has joined
3921 2011-06-26 23:48:51 <jrmithdobbs> where'd that lol thread about the "fork" to remove all "stupid forced txn fees" go
3922 2011-06-26 23:49:16 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I guess so. I kinda wish listtransactions showed inputs on send. I'd like to figure out which of my addresses have been cross-contaminated by being used as shared inputs.
3923 2011-06-26 23:49:24 <jrmithdobbs> found it
3924 2011-06-26 23:49:56 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: link?
3925 2011-06-26 23:50:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: lol it got more hilarious
3926 2011-06-26 23:50:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: he now has code that wont relay his own txns
3927 2011-06-26 23:50:56 <jrmithdobbs> lol
3928 2011-06-26 23:51:07 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22434
3929 2011-06-26 23:51:17 <marioxcc> jrmithdobbs: thanks you
3930 2011-06-26 23:51:41 <marioxcc> oh, they have HTTPS?
3931 2011-06-26 23:51:50 <marioxcc> i have been using HTTP without knowing (
3932 2011-06-26 23:51:51 <marioxcc> :(
3933 2011-06-26 23:51:59 <marioxcc> it should be automatic to HTTPS !
3934 2011-06-26 23:52:03 <marioxcc> like savannah.gnu.org
3935 2011-06-26 23:52:20 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: ah, listtransactions doesn't tell you what inputs are still available to you.
3936 2011-06-26 23:52:40 <pasky> gmaxwell: for sanity checking, to make sure you really have it all balanced and have not missed any possible input
3937 2011-06-26 23:52:58 somuchwin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3938 2011-06-26 23:53:12 <gmaxwell> pasky: I suppose thats sane.
3939 2011-06-26 23:53:17 Pinion has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3940 2011-06-26 23:53:34 <gmaxwell> pasky: the mixed brackets are weird. Also, my question about listing the available inputs?
3941 2011-06-26 23:54:24 <pasky> gmaxwell: i use listtransactions
3942 2011-06-26 23:54:48 <pasky> gmaxwell: but they don't indicate which are spent, admittedly
3943 2011-06-26 23:54:52 <pasky> that'd be something to add
3944 2011-06-26 23:54:55 <pasky> i'll do that
3945 2011-06-26 23:55:08 <pasky> gmaxwell: the mixed brackets are the proper json syntax
3946 2011-06-26 23:55:13 <pasky> can't do anything about that
3947 2011-06-26 23:55:22 somuchwin has joined
3948 2011-06-26 23:56:18 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3949 2011-06-26 23:56:20 <gmaxwell> odd. I think I hate json. ;)
3950 2011-06-26 23:56:33 brooss has joined
3951 2011-06-26 23:57:20 * BlueMatt just send coins from an encrypted wallet using new crypto branch :)
3952 2011-06-26 23:57:27 erus`_ has joined
3953 2011-06-26 23:57:38 <gmaxwell> woot. Where is the new crypto branch?
3954 2011-06-26 23:57:52 <BlueMatt> still *very, very* beta but my github branch newenc
3955 2011-06-26 23:58:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: \o/
3956 2011-06-26 23:58:13 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3957 2011-06-26 23:58:19 erus`_ is now known as erus`
3958 2011-06-26 23:58:29 <gmaxwell> no worries, I'm not actually going to run it— just read it. :)
3959 2011-06-26 23:59:00 <BlueMatt> arg, well now its not working...