1 2011-06-27 00:01:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: k, can confirm that fix on master applies cleanly to showwallet and so far seems to work
   2 2011-06-27 00:01:57 <pasky> c'mon i want another block so that i can see my tx inside
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   5 2011-06-27 00:03:06  is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-41-111.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
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  10 2011-06-27 00:06:29 <b4epoche> wow, they don't make it easy to d/l db4.8 instead of db5.1
  11 2011-06-27 00:06:39 * b4epoche had to hand modify the URL
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  19 2011-06-27 00:14:41 <prof7bit> 4.8? i thought bitcoin uses 4.7?
  20 2011-06-27 00:15:01 arthurb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  21 2011-06-27 00:15:05 <marioxcc> what happens if one miner includes a milion penny transactions?
  22 2011-06-27 00:15:16 <marioxcc> I.e: milion penny atack
  23 2011-06-27 00:16:54 <BlueMatt> yay, reliable sending from crypted wallet :)
  24 2011-06-27 00:18:08 ben36 has quit (Quit: ben36)
  25 2011-06-27 00:18:51 <prof7bit> here they list them all: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/berkeleydb/downloads/index-082944.html
  26 2011-06-27 00:19:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: why does this testnet addr kick back "Invalid private key"? 92eH3M6cADPL9ex88dtzTHf9u1PRjpepm6R54m73kiy6HsPCKEx
  27 2011-06-27 00:19:50 <jrmithdobbs> err s/addr/key/
  28 2011-06-27 00:20:01 <b4epoche> osx version uses 4.8
  29 2011-06-27 00:20:06 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: can't produce a block bigger than 1MB today.
  30 2011-06-27 00:20:12 <b4epoche> and mine uses 5.1...  for the time being
  31 2011-06-27 00:20:37 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: Can only write out a few thousand pennies that way. :)
  32 2011-06-27 00:21:18 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: would an hostile block be included in further blocks by the standard client?
  33 2011-06-27 00:21:38 _ape has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  34 2011-06-27 00:21:39 <b4epoche> I was trying to get it from Freshmeat...  which, no matter what I did, redirected to the 5.1 download
  35 2011-06-27 00:21:41 <gmaxwell> 'marioxcc' included? hm?
  36 2011-06-27 00:21:54 <marioxcc> referenced
  37 2011-06-27 00:21:58 <marioxcc> validated
  38 2011-06-27 00:21:59 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: do you mean would a chain containing one be extended? sure. If it meets the rules.
  39 2011-06-27 00:22:05 <marioxcc> ok
  40 2011-06-27 00:22:07 <gmaxwell> But the rules include a 1MB limit right now.
  41 2011-06-27 00:22:15 <b4epoche> I was avoiding oracle.com because the last time I tried to download db from there they asked me to register and then spammed me with emails
  42 2011-06-27 00:22:35 <marioxcc> Gonzago: ¿then hostile miners can add 1 MB of shit per mined block?
  43 2011-06-27 00:22:59 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: yes, they can.
  44 2011-06-27 00:23:24 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: presumably anyone with enough resources to mine a block doesn't actually want to screw with bitcoin however.
  45 2011-06-27 00:23:25 _ape has joined
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  47 2011-06-27 00:23:48 <gmaxwell> (and the amount they can screw with it is still limited—)
  48 2011-06-27 00:23:58 <b4epoche> well, it could be a pro-union manifesto...
  49 2011-06-27 00:24:05 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: ok
  50 2011-06-27 00:24:10 <marioxcc> I'm just asking, of course
  51 2011-06-27 00:24:22 <b4epoche> we're screwed if the miners join the teamsters
  52 2011-06-27 00:24:33 <jrmithdobbs> is whoever was mining on testnet still doing so?
  53 2011-06-27 00:24:47 <b4epoche> seems to be
  54 2011-06-27 00:24:48 <pasky> ha, no bitcoind before could have generated http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/891cd7818e6ac8d96ab930987585050a0fd9aa667f73fd9a89a6fd1f03f8b156 ;-)
  55 2011-06-27 00:25:29 MetaV has joined
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  57 2011-06-27 00:25:46 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: testnet tx from 2 hours ago has 52 confirms
  58 2011-06-27 00:25:57 MetaV has joined
  59 2011-06-27 00:26:16 <b4epoche> and bitcoin is really f'd if MOSHA gets involved
  60 2011-06-27 00:26:21 <jrmithdobbs> ya can someone pump through 6-7 blocks for me so the faucet will send me some coins ;p
  61 2011-06-27 00:26:25 <pasky> I still wonder, I think I could add arbitrary data to scriptSig and my peers would happily accept them (up to extra transaction fees)
  62 2011-06-27 00:26:43 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  address
  63 2011-06-27 00:26:52 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: faucet is already sending them, i need blocks ;p
  64 2011-06-27 00:27:13 <b4epoche> well, I was going to 'pump through some coins' to you
  65 2011-06-27 00:27:25 <jrmithdobbs> mzDrszh6SJtLTs2TVmuvFsqM1Fz9SgpUtw
  66 2011-06-27 00:27:48 <b4epoche> does multi-tx help?
  67 2011-06-27 00:28:03 <jrmithdobbs> not really, i just need some bit pennies to do what i'm doing, ha
  68 2011-06-27 00:28:39 <b4epoche> didn't know if you needed tx volume
  69 2011-06-27 00:29:00 aristidesfl has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
  70 2011-06-27 00:29:10 <b4epoche> okay, looks like someone is mining
  71 2011-06-27 00:29:24 aristidesfl has joined
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  73 2011-06-27 00:30:58 <jrmithdobbs> blockexplorer says there's not been a block for 30 min ;p
  74 2011-06-27 00:30:59 <gmaxwell> pasky: nah, you'll fail isstandard and most miners / peers won't mine/relay them.
  75 2011-06-27 00:31:22 <gmaxwell> pasky: what unique about that one?
  76 2011-06-27 00:31:44 <jrmithdobbs> or is blockexplorer just fallen off testnet? ha
  77 2011-06-27 00:31:54 <jrmithdobbs> cause those times are yesterday actually, lol
  78 2011-06-27 00:32:30 miningmonster has joined
  79 2011-06-27 00:33:04 <b4epoche> yea, the tx I sent you had a confirm at my previous response
  80 2011-06-27 00:33:14 <jrmithdobbs> ok cool
  81 2011-06-27 00:33:24 <jrmithdobbs> i'm still catching up on the testnet chain atm
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  85 2011-06-27 00:39:18 <b4epoche> does anyone here know the person that submitted the rejected iOS app?
  86 2011-06-27 00:40:26 <Tamo> Does anyone know what frontend http://mining.bitcoin.cz and http://btcguild.com are using?
  87 2011-06-27 00:40:59 <BlueMatt> custom for .cz
  88 2011-06-27 00:41:05 <BlueMatt> dont know about guild
  89 2011-06-27 00:41:40 Lenovo01 has left ("Leaving")
  90 2011-06-27 00:41:59 <gmaxwell> Tamo: by frontend do you mean the pool daemon or the webstuff?
  91 2011-06-27 00:42:08 <Tamo> webstuff
  92 2011-06-27 00:42:19 <gmaxwell> Btcguild writes their own webstuff too.
  93 2011-06-27 00:42:25 <Tamo> I assume pushpool for the pool deamon
  94 2011-06-27 00:42:38 <BlueMatt> no
  95 2011-06-27 00:42:45 <BlueMatt> .cz existed long before pushpool
  96 2011-06-27 00:42:49 <BlueMatt> dont know about guild
  97 2011-06-27 00:43:13 <jrmithdobbs> guild uses pushpool pretty sure
  98 2011-06-27 00:43:22 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure btcguild is using pushpool.
  99 2011-06-27 00:43:48 <jrmithdobbs> they're both custom guis though
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 112 2011-06-27 00:53:06 <Optimo> jrmithdobbs: should we make a new clearcoin?
 113 2011-06-27 00:53:07 <BlueMatt> can someone send a testnet tx to myVLUQsTBcDDV6jbZCAYspnHG3Rq7yDZSG
 114 2011-06-27 00:53:08 <b4epoche> if you're not worried about running bitcoind, what code can be purged?  rpc.cpp?  others?
 115 2011-06-27 00:53:22 <jrmithdobbs> Optimo: why
 116 2011-06-27 00:53:30 <Optimo> it's 'down'
 117 2011-06-27 00:53:42 <jrmithdobbs> again? lol
 118 2011-06-27 00:53:43 <Optimo> closed
 119 2011-06-27 00:53:47 <Optimo> read the site
 120 2011-06-27 00:53:58 <Optimo> ppl in -otc looking for escrow
 121 2011-06-27 00:54:13 <jrmithdobbs> oic
 122 2011-06-27 00:54:46 <jrmithdobbs> go for it, i'm not interested though
 123 2011-06-27 00:54:58 <Optimo> ah ok.
 124 2011-06-27 00:55:10 <jrmithdobbs> i think that's the wrong way to go about it
 125 2011-06-27 00:55:16 <jrmithdobbs> and that escrow should be done in the blockchain
 126 2011-06-27 00:55:17 <tcatm> BlueMatt: sent
 127 2011-06-27 00:55:38 <Optimo> to be honest. I haven't made myself familiar with the tech
 128 2011-06-27 00:55:41 <BlueMatt> tcatm: thanks, topupkeypool on encrypted wallet works :)
 129 2011-06-27 00:55:49 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: same
 130 2011-06-27 00:55:50 <Optimo> I was thinking it was scripts
 131 2011-06-27 00:55:57 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: just sent you 0.05
 132 2011-06-27 00:56:15 <BlueMatt> thanks guys...Im gonna have a ton to send to faucet when this is all over...
 133 2011-06-27 00:56:17 <jrmithdobbs> (cause i don't have many to test with ;p)
 134 2011-06-27 00:56:28 <BlueMatt> well if you want them back, I can send a couple hundred that way
 135 2011-06-27 00:56:35 <jrmithdobbs> nah they came from the faucet
 136 2011-06-27 00:56:39 <BlueMatt> or...I only have a hundred, but Ill give you them
 137 2011-06-27 00:56:39 <jrmithdobbs> just send 'em back there
 138 2011-06-27 00:56:44 <BlueMatt> ok
 139 2011-06-27 00:56:59 * tcatm has 50k testbtc :)
 140 2011-06-27 00:57:10 oozyburglar has joined
 141 2011-06-27 00:57:31 <BlueMatt> damn, you rollin
 142 2011-06-27 00:58:29 <BlueMatt> ready for general "what the hell is this crap" eyeballs and general testing on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/352 :)
 143 2011-06-27 00:59:30 kiwiMINERS has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 144 2011-06-27 00:59:41 <tcatm> I think the topupkeypool RPC should have a better name
 145 2011-06-27 00:59:48 <BlueMatt> suggestions?
 146 2011-06-27 01:00:08 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 147 2011-06-27 01:00:32 <tcatm> at least keypoolX (like walletX)
 148 2011-06-27 01:00:45 <afed> nigger
 149 2011-06-27 01:00:51 <afed> WRONG CHANNEL
 150 2011-06-27 01:00:51 <BlueMatt> well now thats racist
 151 2011-06-27 01:00:54 <afed> EXCUSE ME
 152 2011-06-27 01:01:10 <BlueMatt> tcatm: what do you mean?
 153 2011-06-27 01:01:20 <BlueMatt> when did rpc get walletX?
 154 2011-06-27 01:02:25 <tcatm> no, I mean call it keypooltopup similar to walletpasswordchange and walletpassword which also have the subject first
 155 2011-06-27 01:02:40 <BlueMatt> oh, ok, yea Ill go do that
 156 2011-06-27 01:02:44 accel has joined
 157 2011-06-27 01:02:55 <tcatm> would keypoolgrow work, too?
 158 2011-06-27 01:03:01 <accel> anyone else impressed by the story on news.yc
 159 2011-06-27 01:03:05 <accel> or someone paying for food with bitcoin?
 160 2011-06-27 01:03:09 <BlueMatt> tcatm: that looks odd, and sounds a bit odd imho
 161 2011-06-27 01:03:26 <tcatm> I wasn't sure how to read "topup". Thought it meant something like "to public key" first
 162 2011-06-27 01:03:26 mctrader has joined
 163 2011-06-27 01:03:43 <BlueMatt> oh, well mabye keypoolfill?
 164 2011-06-27 01:03:48 TheZimm has joined
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 166 2011-06-27 01:03:50 <BlueMatt> s/mabye/maybe/
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 168 2011-06-27 01:04:23 <tcatm> BlueMatt: keypoolfill sounds better but maybe it's not precise enough
 169 2011-06-27 01:04:34 <tcatm> refill?
 170 2011-06-27 01:04:45 <BlueMatt> sure keypollrefill it is
 171 2011-06-27 01:04:57 skeledrew1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3pre)
 172 2011-06-27 01:05:09 <BlueMatt> though maybe I like keypoolfill better...
 173 2011-06-27 01:05:15 arthurb has joined
 174 2011-06-27 01:05:22 <BlueMatt> whatever not worth arguing about, keypoolrefill it is
 175 2011-06-27 01:06:35 <BlueMatt> tcatm: changed, pushed
 176 2011-06-27 01:06:58 skeledrew has joined
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 178 2011-06-27 01:08:32 <BlueMatt> ok, well tonight Im gonna go to bed before 5:30, so please forward all "this patch sucks" messages to github/the forum/gribble's ;;later tell
 179 2011-06-27 01:08:47 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 180 2011-06-27 01:09:01 <tcatm> ok, good night. I'll read the diff and try it on testnet :)
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 193 2011-06-27 01:27:29 <BlueMatt> arg wtf why is my email not going through to the list?
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 196 2011-06-27 01:36:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, who knows
 197 2011-06-27 01:37:57 <BlueMatt> nope, it worked, just took a long time
 198 2011-06-27 01:38:08 <BlueMatt> anyway, now Im actually off to bed
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 209 2011-06-27 01:56:25 <sacarlson> Optimo: I got escrow working on freecoin but I'm not sure that bitcoin main net will accept escrow transactions will it?
 210 2011-06-27 01:56:27 trend has left ()
 211 2011-06-27 01:59:29 <sacarlson> anyone want to try an escrow to me on bitcoin main net to verify if it works or not with freecoin or groffer branch?  my freecoin is now active at 1EnkL3JABJgZRY8ohABMnELPoRoH5eumN2
 212 2011-06-27 01:59:45 wolfspraul has joined
 213 2011-06-27 02:00:06 <jgarzik> sacarlson: clients will not relay non-standard transactions, but will accept a wide variety of stuff, if you can get a miner to mine it
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 217 2011-06-27 02:01:19 <sacarlson> jgarzik: I heard at some point that there was a pool that was accepting some non-standard transactions but the only way to prove or disprove if they do is try I guess with a .01 transaction
 218 2011-06-27 02:01:27 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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 220 2011-06-27 02:01:46 <jgarzik> sacarlson: a .01 transaction is perfectly normal :)
 221 2011-06-27 02:01:47 <sacarlson> jgarzik: it does work on testnet and weedsnet
 222 2011-06-27 02:02:07 <sacarlson> jgarzik: I mean an escrow transaction to send .01
 223 2011-06-27 02:03:16 <sacarlson> jgarzik: and I guess if we knew what minner did accept them I would just add his ip to addnode
 224 2011-06-27 02:03:19 Justasic has joined
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 226 2011-06-27 02:05:11 <doublec> sacarlson: luke-jr's pool I think
 227 2011-06-27 02:05:19 Justasic has joined
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 229 2011-06-27 02:05:31 kgo_ has joined
 230 2011-06-27 02:05:38 <sacarlson> we might even be able to try a .001 escrow send to test,  and provide a fee of .0005,  yes I think luke-jr did say something before about accepting
 231 2011-06-27 02:06:05 jlewis has quit (Quit: leaving)
 232 2011-06-27 02:06:19 <sacarlson> doublec: so what is luke-jr ip for his pool?
 233 2011-06-27 02:06:29 <luke-jr> relay.eligius.st
 234 2011-06-27 02:06:33 <luke-jr> but now is a bad time to test
 235 2011-06-27 02:06:43 <gmaxwell> Since the pool is down atm. :)
 236 2011-06-27 02:06:44 <sacarlson> luke-jr ok when would be a good time?
 237 2011-06-27 02:06:49 <sacarlson> oh ok
 238 2011-06-27 02:06:59 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's not down
 239 2011-06-27 02:07:38 <sacarlson> luke-jr so is there slower transaction windows that are a better time?
 240 2011-06-27 02:07:53 <luke-jr> sacarlson: in the middle of a rewrite is a bad time ☺
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 244 2011-06-27 02:09:24 <sacarlson> luke-jr: seems we are in constant change I'm not sure when we are not in a rewrite as I see changes in git almost dayly
 245 2011-06-27 02:09:45 <luke-jr> sacarlson: Eligius git isn't publci
 246 2011-06-27 02:09:52 jlewis has joined
 247 2011-06-27 02:11:12 <kgo_> Would any kind soul send me 5-20 testnet coins?  mmWBgHDjaMNrGkCouxqmnF7jtqpseV1HVo
 248 2011-06-27 02:12:39 <sacarlson> luke-jr: oh this is some change in some minner software,  I would think there's never a bad time to test, then you know what broke it
 249 2011-06-27 02:13:15 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 250 2011-06-27 02:13:17 <marioxcc> someone has to open a testnet/bitcoin market
 251 2011-06-27 02:13:42 <luke-jr> …
 252 2011-06-27 02:13:58 <tcatm> that'd be fun when we reset testnet again :)
 253 2011-06-27 02:14:13 <marioxcc> it should be called "testmarket"
 254 2011-06-27 02:14:23 <marioxcc> "trade real money for test money"
 255 2011-06-27 02:14:42 <kgo_> I was just going to CPU mine, but that option is off of the bitcoin gui now.
 256 2011-06-27 02:15:03 <marioxcc> i just realized
 257 2011-06-27 02:15:04 <sacarlson> marioxcc: I have a testnet/weeds market
 258 2011-06-27 02:15:09 <marioxcc> that's what CPU miner is for
 259 2011-06-27 02:15:14 <marioxcc> *cpuminer
 260 2011-06-27 02:15:16 peck has joined
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 262 2011-06-27 02:15:24 <marioxcc> kgo_: https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer
 263 2011-06-27 02:15:28 <tcatm> kgo_: still waiting for testnet coins?
 264 2011-06-27 02:15:29 kika_ has joined
 265 2011-06-27 02:16:00 <kika_> on linux i just installed the ati catalyst thing, do i need to run aticonfig --init or something for the card to start to be used for X ?
 266 2011-06-27 02:16:11 <sacarlson> marioxcc: http://exchange.beertokens.info trades tnBTC
 267 2011-06-27 02:16:29 <kgo_> tcatm, yeah, but I'm not even sure what the testnet block count is.  If I'm synced up.  I'm at 27078
 268 2011-06-27 02:16:41 <tcatm> kgo_: invalid address
 269 2011-06-27 02:16:49 <marioxcc> sacarlson: haha
 270 2011-06-27 02:16:56 mctrader has quit (Quit: off like a prom dress...)
 271 2011-06-27 02:17:08 <kgo_> tcatm, UGH.  RUnning test net on a VM.  Copy/paste wasn't working.  Thought I got it right.
 272 2011-06-27 02:17:13 <kgo_> Lemme fire up some webmail.
 273 2011-06-27 02:17:28 <sacarlson> marioxcc: I can add another trade option for btc/tnbtc if you want
 274 2011-06-27 02:17:50 <marioxcc> sacarlson: no, thanks :)
 275 2011-06-27 02:18:21 <kika_> i think my 6990 card burn out?
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 277 2011-06-27 02:18:26 dbasch has joined
 278 2011-06-27 02:18:34 <kika_> for some reaso i get "get temperature failed for the default adapter"
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 284 2011-06-27 02:22:46 <kgo_> tcatm, if you don't mind, try this mmWBgHDjaMNrGkCouxqmnF7JtqpseV1HVo
 285 2011-06-27 02:22:57 <tcatm> works
 286 2011-06-27 02:23:01 <sacarlson> tcatm: if your giving away testnet coin I could use 1000 or more myQVmbfygx2xyqzBpxNi4RJNNW1gJFRBkH
 287 2011-06-27 02:23:01 spidermon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 288 2011-06-27 02:23:09 <kgo_> I'm rich! ;-)
 289 2011-06-27 02:23:19 <kgo_> thx a million
 290 2011-06-27 02:23:26 <marioxcc> it's by design than bitcoin address begin with '1'?
 291 2011-06-27 02:23:38 <tcatm> marioxcc: kinda...
 292 2011-06-27 02:24:00 <marioxcc> 'kinda' don't answer my question :)
 293 2011-06-27 02:24:26 peck has joined
 294 2011-06-27 02:24:47 <sacarlson> marioxcc: the first byte is the version that 1 normaly means it BTC and n or m seems to mean it's testnet
 295 2011-06-27 02:24:51 <tcatm> marioxcc: no, it's not designed to start with 1, but because of the encoding and raw address format (starts with a constant) it tends be 1 in most (all?) cases
 296 2011-06-27 02:25:10 <doublec> N and M are namecoin
 297 2011-06-27 02:25:17 <doublec> so it's useful to help visually differentiate
 298 2011-06-27 02:25:22 <marioxcc> ok, thanks you sacarlson, tcatm
 299 2011-06-27 02:25:27 <marioxcc> brb
 300 2011-06-27 02:25:32 <tcatm> sacarlson: sent
 301 2011-06-27 02:25:36 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 302 2011-06-27 02:25:45 marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK
 303 2011-06-27 02:26:06 sathyabhat has joined
 304 2011-06-27 02:26:12 shawn-p has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 305 2011-06-27 02:26:36 <sacarlson> tcatm: thank very much I got it "txid" : "c187cff1054c83a21d2e8be1c64238dd31abc7754c9b78cf230ec0653947e8b3", 1000 tnBTC
 306 2011-06-27 02:26:56 * tcatm still wants to buy a pizza for 10k tnBTC
 307 2011-06-27 02:27:33 grbgout has joined
 308 2011-06-27 02:27:42 <sacarlson> tcatm: well you can trade them for weeds that sometimes are worth like a peporoni slice
 309 2011-06-27 02:27:47 WildSoil has joined
 310 2011-06-27 02:27:50 <kgo_> tcatm, you run bitcoincharts right?
 311 2011-06-27 02:27:54 <tcatm> kgo_: yes
 312 2011-06-27 02:28:12 <kgo_> tcatm, been meaning to donate, but if you want a pizza instead I'll do that.
 313 2011-06-27 02:29:37 <tcatm> hrm so I need to find a pizza service that actually takes orders with credit cards over the internet :)
 314 2011-06-27 02:29:59 <kgo_> tcatm, papa johns seems to be the best choice for that.
 315 2011-06-27 02:30:25 <tcatm> I don't think they'll deliver them to germany :)
 316 2011-06-27 02:30:44 <jrmithdobbs> wow valgrind on osx (even using the trunk working version) is useless on apps using openssl
 317 2011-06-27 02:31:05 <jrmithdobbs> apparently the prng does some super fun stuff on osx because urandom sucks or something
 318 2011-06-27 02:31:14 <jrmithdobbs> reading unitialized values makes valgrind unhappy ;p
 319 2011-06-27 02:31:35 glitch-mod has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 320 2011-06-27 02:31:38 <kgo_> Yes... That could be a problem...
 321 2011-06-27 02:31:57 <jrmithdobbs> nope, just redherrings
 322 2011-06-27 02:32:52 kgo_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 323 2011-06-27 02:34:17 shawn-p has joined
 324 2011-06-27 02:35:15 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 325 2011-06-27 02:38:46 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 326 2011-06-27 02:39:07 <unclemantis> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/55b08cf8c3e80b7808fd3d9230bb4d717b4c924af6b6b28220ebb6efadff2e5d#o1
 327 2011-06-27 02:39:16 e_scott5679 has joined
 328 2011-06-27 02:39:34 <unclemantis> this is showing as not yet redeemmed but i have had my client running for 12 hours now and it STILL has not shown up!
 329 2011-06-27 02:40:29 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: not redeemed just means you haven't spent them yet.
 330 2011-06-27 02:40:40 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: what block number are you currently at?
 331 2011-06-27 02:41:10 <gmaxwell> If it's in block explorer that means the transaction has been mined, so it will be in your client unless you are not up to sync with the network.
 332 2011-06-27 02:41:36 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 333 2011-06-27 02:42:48 <unclemantis> 133446
 334 2011-06-27 02:42:54 x6763 has joined
 335 2011-06-27 02:43:10 <gmaxwell> Thats where the network is.
 336 2011-06-27 02:43:31 <unclemantis> i sent it at 133365
 337 2011-06-27 02:43:40 <gmaxwell> so address 1BJVmTFxUA9d9Ff2jntA8kzsEdxeq23GH7 is yours and you do not see the 0.05 input in it?
 338 2011-06-27 02:44:19 pyro-Der_ has joined
 339 2011-06-27 02:44:20 sathyabhat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 340 2011-06-27 02:44:43 <unclemantis> correct
 341 2011-06-27 02:45:13 pyro-DerWahre- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 342 2011-06-27 02:45:16 <gmaxwell> shutdown and restart with -rescan  ... :-/ but thats weird. It should have seen it when it got mined.
 343 2011-06-27 02:45:16 <e_scott5679> Hi, I'm wondering if it would be possible for a user of the bitcoin client to generate a dump of multiple bitcoin addresses that can be accessed by the user -- I know the client generates 100 public and private keys and corresponding addresses in advance, but can those be easily accessed without clicking on "new address" multiple times?
 344 2011-06-27 02:45:21 <zapnap> anyone had issues getting pushpool to build?
 345 2011-06-27 02:45:26 <zapnap> getting an error about byteswap.h
 346 2011-06-27 02:45:38 sytse has joined
 347 2011-06-27 02:46:43 <unclemantis> sigh ok
 348 2011-06-27 02:46:54 <zapnap> (on os x of course, where that doesn't appear to be present)
 349 2011-06-27 02:47:08 <unclemantis> gmax, i am trying
 350 2011-06-27 02:48:18 <gmaxwell> (you also should have seen it when it was sent, even before it showed up in the blockchain, if you were online)
 351 2011-06-27 02:48:24 <unclemantis> the client took longer than usual to load
 352 2011-06-27 02:48:54 <unclemantis> i saw it go out, and it is showing as confirmed like a bunch of times, but the other wallet I am using that i sent it to is not showing it
 353 2011-06-27 02:48:56 <gmaxwell> yes, thats what rescan does (in fact it's probably still thrashing your disk, no?)
 354 2011-06-27 02:49:22 <unclemantis> probably, not sure. I am downloading videos right now
 355 2011-06-27 02:49:24 <gmaxwell> so the wallet that sent it sees the confirms. .. er wait. Which wallet were you telling me was at 133446?
 356 2011-06-27 02:49:37 <gmaxwell> It's the reciever that needs to be current to see it. :)
 357 2011-06-27 02:49:41 <unclemantis> they are both at 133446 now
 358 2011-06-27 02:50:48 <gmaxwell> the reciever that should be fixed by the rescan.  ... kind of a dumb question, but you're sure the address is right, right?
 359 2011-06-27 02:52:43 marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc
 360 2011-06-27 02:53:12 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110614230723])
 361 2011-06-27 02:53:37 quellhorst has joined
 362 2011-06-27 02:55:32 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 363 2011-06-27 02:56:41 <unclemantis> gmaxwell... ummm. ya
 364 2011-06-27 02:57:13 <unclemantis> i have two addresses for that wallet 1BJVmTFxUA9d9Ff2jntA8kzsEdxeq23GH7 and 158jg3J4QBS9dko1MDnHdfPJ5Bug1R4XiY
 365 2011-06-27 02:57:25 <unclemantis> the one i sent it FROM is pretty mature
 366 2011-06-27 02:57:35 Herodes has joined
 367 2011-06-27 02:57:53 <gmaxwell> the maturity doesn't matter. Its been mined. If the rx side is current with the blockchain then it should be there.
 368 2011-06-27 02:58:07 <gmaxwell> (and if its not, thats a bug— but a rescan should make it show up)
 369 2011-06-27 03:00:04 <unclemantis> well it didn't
 370 2011-06-27 03:01:12 <gmaxwell> Does it see anything at all? and what version of the software is running?
 371 2011-06-27 03:01:37 <unclemantis> the latest one, both of them
 372 2011-06-27 03:01:55 <unclemantis> 0.3.23-beta
 373 2011-06-27 03:04:01 <gmaxwell> I saw that there was also a 1e-8 btc payment to that address, does it see that one?
 374 2011-06-27 03:04:36 <unclemantis> yaq
 375 2011-06-27 03:04:37 <unclemantis> ya
 376 2011-06-27 03:04:48 <unclemantis> of all the transactions it sees the cheaper one LOL
 377 2011-06-27 03:04:57 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: 1 satoshi :)
 378 2011-06-27 03:05:07 <unclemantis> sure... IGNORE THE DOLLAR ONE!
 379 2011-06-27 03:05:45 m86 has quit ()
 380 2011-06-27 03:06:15 <unclemantis> marioxcc now if only a pack of beer costs that much ;)
 381 2011-06-27 03:06:24 btceezey has joined
 382 2011-06-27 03:06:25 <marioxcc> unclemantis: it will, someday
 383 2011-06-27 03:06:39 <marioxcc> :)
 384 2011-06-27 03:06:53 <marioxcc> but we will all die before that (unless you're superhuman, of course)
 385 2011-06-27 03:06:57 <btceezey> anyone know why I might be getting a TCP RST packet from bitcoind after the initial 3-way handshake?
 386 2011-06-27 03:07:29 <gmaxwell> btceezey: becaus you've reached the max connections?
 387 2011-06-27 03:07:38 <unclemantis> so, gmaxwell..... can i get a rebuke on that transaction?
 388 2011-06-27 03:07:51 <btceezey> I've got the bitcoind behind a linksys router with port forwarding active and accessing from remote location. it sees remote request but bails after handshake
 389 2011-06-27 03:08:07 <btceezey> works when accessing external IP from internal computer on same network
 390 2011-06-27 03:08:16 <btceezey> just not from external computer
 391 2011-06-27 03:08:28 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: no.. so.. it sees the _later_ one. er. thats totally broken.
 392 2011-06-27 03:09:07 <gmaxwell> that proves you've got the address right too.
 393 2011-06-27 03:10:01 <gmaxwell> so, shut down blow away everything in the data directory _except_ wallet.dat. Restart, if that doesn't fix it, I'll buy that wallet.dat of you for troubleshooting (because we're not getting anywhere trying to figure it out remotely)
 394 2011-06-27 03:10:55 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 395 2011-06-27 03:11:34 <sacarlson> btceezey: I'm lost on your (10:06:42 AM) statement is that external ip accessing the ip from the same local machine or is this two machines on a local network?
 396 2011-06-27 03:11:58 <unclemantis> gmaxwell that is like 600+ megs of data! :(
 397 2011-06-27 03:12:08 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 398 2011-06-27 03:12:43 el_bb has quit (Quit: goodbye)
 399 2011-06-27 03:12:55 <btceezey> sacarlson: I am accessing the bitcoind machine from a local machine using the router external IP, and that works
 400 2011-06-27 03:13:05 <unclemantis> is there anything other than the wallet file that contains information that is unique to me?
 401 2011-06-27 03:13:08 <btceezey> when accessing from a remote machine (same IP) it does not work
 402 2011-06-27 03:13:08 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: indeed, it would have to resync. Which will take a while. Is that 0.05000001 all thats in it?
 403 2011-06-27 03:13:17 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: just the wallet file.
 404 2011-06-27 03:13:26 <unclemantis> ok
 405 2011-06-27 03:13:58 DiSTANT187` has joined
 406 2011-06-27 03:14:11 <sacarlson> btceezey: ok and I assume you mean rpc access
 407 2011-06-27 03:14:20 <btceezey> right
 408 2011-06-27 03:14:45 <unclemantis> grrr
 409 2011-06-27 03:14:51 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: hm?
 410 2011-06-27 03:14:55 DiSTANT187` has quit (Client Quit)
 411 2011-06-27 03:15:14 <unclemantis> the 0.00000001 transaction is showing up greyed out and that is all! not the other one!
 412 2011-06-27 03:15:39 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: well it wouldn't show up until it synced up with the network again.
 413 2011-06-27 03:15:45 <sacarlson> btceezey: you might be the one I chated with yestarday,  I never tried access rpc from outside ssh proxy might be needed?
 414 2011-06-27 03:16:04 <unclemantis> ok at block 4000+ right now
 415 2011-06-27 03:16:05 <gmaxwell> it only knows about the 1e-8 one because it already knew about it.
 416 2011-06-27 03:16:09 distant187 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 417 2011-06-27 03:16:16 <sacarlson> btceezey: or some kind of proxy like appache has proxy options
 418 2011-06-27 03:16:26 distant187 has joined
 419 2011-06-27 03:16:48 <kika_> do you guys know if is there a way to check if my 6990 card is working ok on linux ?
 420 2011-06-27 03:16:56 <unclemantis> thanks gmaxwell
 421 2011-06-27 03:16:57 <btceezey> sacarlson: I'm not that person. Yeah, that might help. The thing it that the initial handshake happens, and I see the packet requesting the data, but the bitcoind sends RST right after the handshake
 422 2011-06-27 03:17:06 noagendamarket has joined
 423 2011-06-27 03:17:08 <unclemantis> i have company, talk to you later. Thanks again
 424 2011-06-27 03:17:40 Kothar has joined
 425 2011-06-27 03:17:45 <gmaxwell> okay, if I don't respond send me a /msg .. all else fails, I'll have you make a new wallet and I'll send you replacement funds in exchange for your broken one (so I can debug it)
 426 2011-06-27 03:17:58 <kika_> it says OpenCL platform AMD Accelerated processing contains no devices
 427 2011-06-27 03:18:01 <sacarlson> btceezey: security feature ?
 428 2011-06-27 03:18:30 <sacarlson> btceezey: seems if your coming in from outside you should encrypt anyway with ssh or https
 429 2011-06-27 03:18:36 <gmaxwell> btceezey: you know the rpc has a allowup setting, right?
 430 2011-06-27 03:18:48 <gmaxwell> er allowip
 431 2011-06-27 03:18:51 <btceezey> sacarlson: didn't see allowup. What's that?
 432 2011-06-27 03:19:23 <btceezey> sacarlson: and I'll need to get security on it for sure before going beyond experimentation phase
 433 2011-06-27 03:19:43 dvide has joined
 434 2011-06-27 03:19:54 <sacarlson> btceezey:  -rpcallowip=<ip>   Allow JSON-RPC connections from specified IP address
 435 2011-06-27 03:20:02 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
 436 2011-06-27 03:20:04 <btceezey> oh, allowip
 437 2011-06-27 03:20:07 <gmaxwell> rpcallowip
 438 2011-06-27 03:20:07 <btceezey> yeah I have that
 439 2011-06-27 03:20:16 <gmaxwell> hm.
 440 2011-06-27 03:20:27 <gmaxwell> And you restarted after setting it?
 441 2011-06-27 03:20:33 <btceezey> Yeah
 442 2011-06-27 03:20:41 <gmaxwell> and you set it to something like *.*.*.* ?
 443 2011-06-27 03:20:54 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I wonder if -rpcallowip=0.0.0.0 would be all?
 444 2011-06-27 03:21:01 <btceezey> I set it to IP of specific remote server
 445 2011-06-27 03:21:13 <btceezey> I could try to allow all and see what happens
 446 2011-06-27 03:21:15 <gmaxwell> hm. And you know the remote server is using the right address?
 447 2011-06-27 03:21:22 <btceezey> yeah
 448 2011-06-27 03:21:50 glitch-mod has joined
 449 2011-06-27 03:23:40 <sacarlson> btceezey: seems to me to access from outside like that without encryption would put your clients into a posible man-in-the-middle-attack in the event of wifi or mobile would be even more of a problem
 450 2011-06-27 03:23:59 deltaray has joined
 451 2011-06-27 03:24:01 folklore has joined
 452 2011-06-27 03:24:35 <btceezey> sacarlson: oh for sure! I'm doing proof of concept now, and I was just stumped on getting data out at all
 453 2011-06-27 03:24:36 <deltaray> I was told to ask here if its safe to delete everything on my .bitcoin directory (on Linux) except the wallet.dat file?  I'm having segfaults when I try to start the bitcoin client.
 454 2011-06-27 03:24:41 <deltaray> Is it?
 455 2011-06-27 03:24:42 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: bitcoin does support ssl for the rpc...
 456 2011-06-27 03:25:05 <gmaxwell> deltaray: Yes, thats safe. You should also make a backup of wallet.dat, too.
 457 2011-06-27 03:25:23 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya that's a new feature so how does the client hook into it then?
 458 2011-06-27 03:25:51 <btceezey> sacarlson: doing allow *.*.*.* fixed it.
 459 2011-06-27 03:25:56 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I guess like https?
 460 2011-06-27 03:26:22 <sacarlson> btceezey: cool next 6 people who ask me then we have the answer
 461 2011-06-27 03:26:28 <deltaray> gmaxwell, thanks.
 462 2011-06-27 03:26:50 <btceezey> sacarlson: I really wanted to allow only the ip of the server, for added security, but something is not letting that work
 463 2011-06-27 03:27:51 <sacarlson> btceezey: well maybe look at what's comeing in with wireshark to find out what your router really is sending it.  it's probly nat and becomes another address
 464 2011-06-27 03:29:30 <btceezey> sacarlson: I do have wireshark up. That's how I even found the RST packet. The router changes local requests (even to the external IP) into the router address. Wireshark shows the remote IP getting all the way into the box, but just allowing that IP in bitcoin.conf didn't work
 465 2011-06-27 03:29:42 <btceezey> confusing
 466 2011-06-27 03:29:47 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Enabling_SSL_on_original_client_daemon
 467 2011-06-27 03:31:18 <btceezey> thanks for that
 468 2011-06-27 03:32:37 MetaV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 469 2011-06-27 03:32:39 <gmaxwell> I'm currently being DDOSed at home. :-/ People are jerks
 470 2011-06-27 03:33:30 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: don't you have dynamic IP?
 471 2011-06-27 03:33:44 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: it's a real pain to change it.
 472 2011-06-27 03:34:21 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: well, just think the atacker is using as much bandwidth as they're hurting from you :)
 473 2011-06-27 03:34:39 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: I have to basically take out my internet for a half hour to change it.. if I just reup I get the same IP, if I change mac addr I get filtered out for a half hour until it forgets the old one.
 474 2011-06-27 03:34:56 <marioxcc> oh, lol
 475 2011-06-27 03:35:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: lol what'd you do?
 476 2011-06-27 03:35:41 <gmaxwell> I have backup connectivity anyways, and thats not being DOSed.
 477 2011-06-27 03:35:50 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: nothing as far as I know.
 478 2011-06-27 03:36:45 * gmaxwell bbl
 479 2011-06-27 03:37:42 nus has joined
 480 2011-06-27 03:38:08 <unclemantis> up to 41580 blocks
 481 2011-06-27 03:39:16 <kika_> amd sdk 2.4 doesnt support catalyst 11.6 ?
 482 2011-06-27 03:40:26 <btceezey> sacarlson: got SSL working. Thanks
 483 2011-06-27 03:41:28 <sacarlson> btceezey: thank gmaxwell he pointed it out for ya
 484 2011-06-27 03:41:56 Cryo has quit (Excess Flood)
 485 2011-06-27 03:42:16 Cryo has joined
 486 2011-06-27 03:42:24 <btceezey> gmaxwell: thanks!
 487 2011-06-27 03:42:42 Cryo is now known as Guest81679
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 493 2011-06-27 03:44:06 <Herodes> Have an eye out for oddities in the mtGox trading at the moment. A few minutes ago the price dropped with 0.8, apparently without removing all the orders in between. I didn't have a look at the market depth of the time, but the executed orders are:
 494 2011-06-27 03:44:07 <Herodes>  mtgoxUSD 2011-06-27 05:25:03 1309145103 16.98879 0.39
 495 2011-06-27 03:44:07 <Herodes>  mtgoxUSD 2011-06-27 05:25:03 1309145103 16.19999 0.26
 496 2011-06-27 03:44:26 <Herodes> A spread could explain it.
 497 2011-06-27 03:44:34 <Herodes> Else there would have to be something wrong.
 498 2011-06-27 03:46:09 Zeiris_ has joined
 499 2011-06-27 03:47:00 Zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 500 2011-06-27 03:47:05 <copumpkin> Herodes: yeah, I've noticed some of my orders not being filled
 501 2011-06-27 03:47:11 <copumpkin> despite being well within the range
 502 2011-06-27 03:47:18 <copumpkin> kind of annoying actually
 503 2011-06-27 03:47:18 <nanotube> Herodes: people have reported similar things... suggest you file a ticket
 504 2011-06-27 03:47:28 folklore has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 505 2011-06-27 03:47:28 nomit has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 506 2011-06-27 03:47:30 <Herodes> I will do.
 507 2011-06-27 03:47:49 <copumpkin> ah well, I guess a bit of a loss is what I get for trading on a beta market :P
 508 2011-06-27 03:48:07 koleg has joined
 509 2011-06-27 03:50:33 <Herodes> copumpkin: hehe, yeah.
 510 2011-06-27 03:50:38 folklore has joined
 511 2011-06-27 03:50:49 lolwat` has joined
 512 2011-06-27 03:50:55 <Herodes> Well, nanotube, I've been a good boy and filed a ticket, now give me a cookie please!
 513 2011-06-27 03:51:38 <nanotube> ;;give Herodes a cookie. two even!
 514 2011-06-27 03:51:38 * gribble gives Herodes a cookie. two even!
 515 2011-06-27 03:52:27 <copumpkin> ;;give itself a bitcoin
 516 2011-06-27 03:52:27 * gribble gives itself a bitcoin
 517 2011-06-27 03:52:40 <unclemantis> 48 connections and block 64214
 518 2011-06-27 03:53:40 <Herodes> ty!
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 530 2011-06-27 04:05:50 <e_scott37820> Hi, I'm wondering if it would be possible for a user of the bitcoin client to generate a dump of multiple bitcoin addresses that can be accessed by the user -- I know the client generates 100 public and private keys and corresponding addresses in advance, but can those be easily accessed without clicking on "new address" multiple times?
 531 2011-06-27 04:05:52 <dubbz82> okay
 532 2011-06-27 04:06:06 <dubbz82> i still can't pull in values from mtgox's ticker into a program
 533 2011-06-27 04:06:10 <dubbz82> like it's timing out
 534 2011-06-27 04:06:20 <dubbz82> so am i doing something wrong, or is it still screwed up?
 535 2011-06-27 04:06:37 <dubbz82> (they work fine for tradehill)
 536 2011-06-27 04:07:04 MetaV has joined
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 538 2011-06-27 04:08:13 fluffle has joined
 539 2011-06-27 04:09:45 <nanotube> e_scott37820: there is a patch to allow for key import/export out there somewhere
 540 2011-06-27 04:10:02 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
 541 2011-06-27 04:10:03 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.95,"low":14.01,"avg":15.988500408,"vol":24897.68339986,"last":17,"buy":16.83801,"sell":17}}
 542 2011-06-27 04:10:04 elnato is now known as midget
 543 2011-06-27 04:10:06 <nanotube> dubbz82: ^ no problems here
 544 2011-06-27 04:10:21 <dubbz82> nanotube, yea, and i can pull it in from the website too
 545 2011-06-27 04:10:29 <dubbz82> but it's choking and dying within my program :/
 546 2011-06-27 04:10:34 midget is now known as Guest30578
 547 2011-06-27 04:10:47 <nanotube> dubbz82: well maybe your program is doing something wrong :)
 548 2011-06-27 04:11:01 sacarlson has joined
 549 2011-06-27 04:11:02 <dubbz82> so i'm just trying to figure out if i'm fucking something up or if others are having issues pulling in the data to their programs, too
 550 2011-06-27 04:11:14 Guest30578 is now known as elnato
 551 2011-06-27 04:11:35 <doublec> e_scott37820: this is the patch I think nanotube refers too http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8091.0
 552 2011-06-27 04:11:38 <e_scott37820> Thank you, I'll check it out,  nano
 553 2011-06-27 04:11:57 <nanotube> doublec: yep that's it :)
 554 2011-06-27 04:12:16 <unclemantis> all this crap just to print out a paper copy of my wallet LOL
 555 2011-06-27 04:12:18 <nanotube> dubbz82: try turning of ssl cert validation in your code (if it does that)
 556 2011-06-27 04:12:44 <e_scott37820> thank you, doublec
 557 2011-06-27 04:12:50 <e_scott37820> I'll reading the thread now
 558 2011-06-27 04:12:56 <nanotube> unclemantis: base64 wallet.dat > somefile.txt, then print it.
 559 2011-06-27 04:13:03 <doublec> dubbz82: getting the ticker via curl works for me
 560 2011-06-27 04:13:12 <doublec> dubbz82: have you been banned from hitting it to frequently?
 561 2011-06-27 04:13:13 Optimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 562 2011-06-27 04:13:14 <dubbz82> hrm
 563 2011-06-27 04:13:20 <dubbz82> doublec, i doubt it
 564 2011-06-27 04:13:32 <dubbz82> i only recently tried attacking it..and not that often
 565 2011-06-27 04:13:45 <doublec> dubbz82: what URL are you using?
 566 2011-06-27 04:13:52 Optimo has joined
 567 2011-06-27 04:14:02 <dubbz82> https://mtgox.com/code/data/ticker.php
 568 2011-06-27 04:14:05 <dubbz82> just their ticker.
 569 2011-06-27 04:14:15 LameArse has joined
 570 2011-06-27 04:14:24 <doublec> I used: https://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php
 571 2011-06-27 04:14:41 <dubbz82> hrm
 572 2011-06-27 04:14:52 <dubbz82> lemme give that a shot.
 573 2011-06-27 04:15:51 <dubbz82> ...nope, still not working
 574 2011-06-27 04:16:15 <doublec> does this work: curl https://mtgox.com/code/ticker.php
 575 2011-06-27 04:16:21 <dubbz82> i wonder what's causing it to mess up though, because tradehill stuff works fine :/
 576 2011-06-27 04:17:06 <dubbz82> i'm just using a c# function called downloadstring, which pulls in plain text variation of whatever url you point it to
 577 2011-06-27 04:17:13 <dubbz82> dunno how to do curl in c# even
 578 2011-06-27 04:17:24 <nanotube> works with wget for me, if i include --no-check-certificate (because apparently i have an old openssl that doesn't know how to read alt domains in a cert)
 579 2011-06-27 04:17:50 <doublec> right, the certificate could be the issue
 580 2011-06-27 04:17:59 <doublec> also, it sends a text/html mime type
 581 2011-06-27 04:18:02 <dubbz82> ...wonder if there's a good way to work around that :/
 582 2011-06-27 04:18:07 <doublec> which your library might not like
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 584 2011-06-27 04:18:08 <dubbz82> in c# that is
 585 2011-06-27 04:19:55 <dubbz82> well wtf.
 586 2011-06-27 04:20:02 Fairuser is now known as AFK!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser|ATK
 587 2011-06-27 04:20:10 <dubbz82> there isn't an api that doesn't use the ssl?
 588 2011-06-27 04:20:17 <dubbz82> :/
 589 2011-06-27 04:20:21 Lenovo01 has joined
 590 2011-06-27 04:20:31 <jgarzik> The SSL!
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 593 2011-06-27 04:20:41 <dubbz82> quite frankly, for the purpose i'm using it for, i could give two shits less about the ssl...lol
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 595 2011-06-27 04:20:46 <doublec> there can be only one!
 596 2011-06-27 04:20:49 <jgarzik> sounds impressive, doesn't it?
 597 2011-06-27 04:20:55 <doublec> definitely
 598 2011-06-27 04:21:50 <doublec> dubbz82: http://blog.jameshiggs.com/2008/05/01/c-how-to-accept-an-invalid-ssl-certificate-programmatically/
 599 2011-06-27 04:21:55 <doublec> I used The Google
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 601 2011-06-27 04:23:20 <dubbz82> good call, i'll look at that :P
 602 2011-06-27 04:23:48 <dubbz82> kinda bad that you gotta work around stuff like that with an otherwise good api, though.
 603 2011-06-27 04:23:54 <doublec> it looks impressively complicated for such a simple requirement
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 624 2011-06-27 04:50:22 <egecko> wasabi.
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 628 2011-06-27 04:51:42 <ultrixx> hi, in my debug.log i see "Flushed wallet.dat" about every 2 minutes. what does "flushed wallet.dat" mean?
 629 2011-06-27 04:52:00 <egecko> that means it wrote the contents of what it had in memory to the disk
 630 2011-06-27 04:52:21 <ultrixx> ah ok thank you. so nothing to worry about, right?
 631 2011-06-27 04:52:45 <egecko> i wouldnt think so
 632 2011-06-27 04:52:50 <ultrixx> thanks again
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 653 2011-06-27 05:33:43 <pixglen> hi
 654 2011-06-27 05:34:18 <RAM2012> anyone else see this? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22965.0
 655 2011-06-27 05:34:34 MtGox_Adam has quit (Quit: MtGox_Adam)
 656 2011-06-27 05:34:35 <RAM2012> wondering if more optimizations could be made
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 658 2011-06-27 05:39:52 <pixglen> i have a proposal and/or query -- the JSON RPC API has listtransactions, but it has limited usefulness when you're polling and need to know the txns since the last poll
 659 2011-06-27 05:40:18 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rae16718 / src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl : Adding bitless's hack - http://bit.ly/li9FgZ
 660 2011-06-27 05:40:36 <pixglen> i'm wondering if there is a way to get txns since a given timestamp, and if not, then to implement that myself
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 665 2011-06-27 05:50:38 <doublec> pixglen: it only lists transactions in a block
 666 2011-06-27 05:50:53 <doublec> pixglen: so you can just use the confirmations argument maybe
 667 2011-06-27 05:51:26 Simon14_ has joined
 668 2011-06-27 05:52:00 <pixglen> doublec: doesn't it lists all the transactions for a particular account? otherwise once the block is past, how could i check the transactions?
 669 2011-06-27 05:52:43 <doublec> pixglen: 'bitcoind listtransactions foo 5' will list all the transactoins for account foo within the last 5 blocks
 670 2011-06-27 05:53:27 <pixglen> doublec: ok... doesn't that list 5 transactions? 1 transaction == 1 block?
 671 2011-06-27 05:54:04 <doublec> pixglen: oh you're right, it's count not confirmations, sorry
 672 2011-06-27 05:54:32 <doublec> pixglen: I was thinking of listreceivedbyaccount
 673 2011-06-27 05:54:38 <pixglen> doublec: in any case, if i were running a process that was polling bitcoind for txn's e.g. to copy to a database or record it for some purpose, then there's no real way of ensuring listtransactions will return all the unrecorded txn's
 674 2011-06-27 05:57:53 <pixglen> looking at the code, it's dying to be rewritten in sqlite or something other than bdb
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 685 2011-06-27 06:13:45 <dubbz82> damn
 686 2011-06-27 06:13:50 <dubbz82> i gotta be missing something here
 687 2011-06-27 06:14:10 darin_ is now known as drod
 688 2011-06-27 06:14:13 <dubbz82> even after FORCING certificates to show up as valid in c#
 689 2011-06-27 06:14:21 <dubbz82> it's still not liking the mtgox ticker :/
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 693 2011-06-27 06:18:40 <dubbz82> i'll have to look into this some more when i get actual free time, i think
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 715 2011-06-27 07:31:02 <accel> err .... people are still using mtgox? (according to their chat on their front page)
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 723 2011-06-27 07:36:56 <folklore> ofcourse people are using mtgox
 724 2011-06-27 07:37:11 <folklore> infact more are probably using it now then before it went down
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 726 2011-06-27 07:38:27 <folklore> all the fear mongers who said "the end of bitcoin" etc... went it got hacked, clearly don't know how the internets works
 727 2011-06-27 07:38:32 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 728 2011-06-27 07:38:47 <folklore> any publicity is good publicity
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 730 2011-06-27 07:41:10 <gm> folklore: i think it's actually more people now either wanting to cash in mtgoxusd to btc and get it out
 731 2011-06-27 07:41:16 <gm> or profit from a spike or crash
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 733 2011-06-27 07:41:46 <folklore> maybe, but imho theres really no better exchange than mtgox right now
 734 2011-06-27 07:41:57 <gm> yeah
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 736 2011-06-27 07:42:02 <gm> tradehill moves way too slow
 737 2011-06-27 07:42:16 <folklore> longevity, api, and they just went through essentially an epic story,and with any epic story theres always conflict and resolution
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 740 2011-06-27 07:42:35 <folklore> now people feel more safe cause they went on the journey with em
 741 2011-06-27 07:42:44 <gm> well the real telling is not that they got hacked, but how they handled it
 742 2011-06-27 07:43:05 <folklore> yeah
 743 2011-06-27 07:44:18 <gm> everyone is now logging in and "oh, my money/btc is still there"
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 775 2011-06-27 08:26:16 <vegard> I managed to make gavin very, very nervous :-P
 776 2011-06-27 08:29:02 <nhodges> ?
 777 2011-06-27 08:29:03 <nhodges> lol
 778 2011-06-27 08:29:03 <nhodges> how
 779 2011-06-27 08:29:34 <vegard> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/349
 780 2011-06-27 08:32:25 <sivu> :)
 781 2011-06-27 08:34:25 <edcba> fcking shit
 782 2011-06-27 08:34:43 Kurtov has joined
 783 2011-06-27 08:34:50 <edcba> i really hope you didn't find a bug in scripting system
 784 2011-06-27 08:34:55 tandy80 has joined
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 786 2011-06-27 08:35:04 <edcba> i don't really want to upgrade :)
 787 2011-06-27 08:35:31 <vegard> it's not bad
 788 2011-06-27 08:35:53 <vegard> it's more of a compatibility issue. as long as you use the official client, you're good
 789 2011-06-27 08:37:31 <edcba> it's bad because if someone issue some tx with your bug network is splitetd
 790 2011-06-27 08:38:05 <edcba> clients accepting the tx vs those non accepting it
 791 2011-06-27 08:38:19 Kryten has joined
 792 2011-06-27 08:38:43 <vegard> I'm not sure if anyone will accept it
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 794 2011-06-27 08:38:52 <vegard> in the first place. but I'm not sure about that
 795 2011-06-27 08:39:11 <Kryten> Hi every one
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 799 2011-06-27 08:40:13 <quup> is there any bitcoin client that gives some network information? like download speed of blocks and info abotu what the peers have and such?
 800 2011-06-27 08:40:27 Kryten has quit (Client Quit)
 801 2011-06-27 08:40:30 <quup> I'm suspecting i'm getting my blocks frome some person with dialup
 802 2011-06-27 08:40:33 Kryten_ has joined
 803 2011-06-27 08:40:52 <Kryten_> so, is there any one here ?
 804 2011-06-27 08:40:57 <edcba> no it's just very slow quup
 805 2011-06-27 08:41:12 <edcba> quup: you can download the block from http somewhere
 806 2011-06-27 08:41:17 <quup> edcba: can I do anything to speed it up besides getting a cup of coffee?
 807 2011-06-27 08:41:56 <vegard> quup: you can open port 8333 (wasn't it?) in your firewall and use -maxconnections=25
 808 2011-06-27 08:42:15 <quup> vegard: oh yea, I guess that'd be best
 809 2011-06-27 08:42:19 <edcba> won't be faster i think
 810 2011-06-27 08:42:30 <edcba> unless something has changed in block downloading
 811 2011-06-27 08:42:30 <quup> I have 8 connections now from the fallback list
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 814 2011-06-27 08:44:13 <Kryten_> I would like to contribute to the bitcoin project, what's the best way to start ?
 815 2011-06-27 08:44:33 <sivu> kryten, do unit tests to components
 816 2011-06-27 08:44:41 <Kryten_> all right
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 818 2011-06-27 08:45:08 <Kryten_> I am on the github page, trying to look for global doc on the code
 819 2011-06-27 08:45:46 <edcba> quup: http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly/blockchain-nightly/
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 823 2011-06-27 08:48:41 <pixglen> ok submitted the listtransactionsaftertime patch https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/355
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 839 2011-06-27 09:21:43 <Edulix> hi people
 840 2011-06-27 09:22:19 <Edulix> I just read-over the bitcoin paper, it seems nice
 841 2011-06-27 09:22:43 karnac has joined
 842 2011-06-27 09:23:22 <Edulix> I suppose the mixers as silkroad create single transactions with lots of inputs and outputs, right?
 843 2011-06-27 09:23:38 <Edulix> thuns performing a "mixing"
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 851 2011-06-27 09:34:47 <quup> edcba: thanks :)
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 858 2011-06-27 10:00:02 <nhodges> Edulix which paper
 859 2011-06-27 10:00:35 <Edulix> http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 860 2011-06-27 10:00:44 <Edulix> ( nhodges )
 861 2011-06-27 10:00:58 TheAncientGoat has joined
 862 2011-06-27 10:01:35 <nhodges> :] fo shizzle
 863 2011-06-27 10:01:45 <Edulix> huh?
 864 2011-06-27 10:03:02 <prof7bit> silkroad is a mixer? i thought it was a trading platform like ebay or amazon?
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 877 2011-06-27 10:37:26 <pixglen> hey guys, does bitcoin store internal txn's that never make it out to the network e.g. in support of multiple accounts in the wallet?
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 879 2011-06-27 10:39:35 <ionspin> pixglen, I don't think so, you need to publish all transactions. I'm not sure though
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 881 2011-06-27 10:42:32 <vegard> pixglen: you mean transactions among your own addresses?
 882 2011-06-27 10:42:41 <pixglen> well in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained under "Account -> Account Transfers", it says transferring between accounts (in the same wallet) are not broadcast to the network
 883 2011-06-27 10:43:27 <pixglen> presumably this causes some kind of internal txn right?
 884 2011-06-27 10:44:53 <pixglen> is there any way to abort bitcoind gracefully? I seemed to have stuffed up the internal database when i ctrl-c'ed it
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 888 2011-06-27 10:51:06 <meelu> are there any perl developers about which can help me accept bitcoin on my site? i have functions for paypal alertpay webmoney smscoin and could paste it, i also have bitcoind installed. I know python and php and could understand enough to modify and improve perl code but i cant come up with a nice function to generate keys and aprove it, i could plan it but i cant write it...
 889 2011-06-27 10:51:24 <meelu> pleasE
 890 2011-06-27 10:51:25 <meelu> ?
 891 2011-06-27 10:51:46 <meelu> i really think i could get alot of bitcoin transactions going through my site
 892 2011-06-27 10:52:06 <pixglen> meelu: can't u use php or python to do it? use the json-rpc interface, it's pretty straightforward
 893 2011-06-27 10:52:27 <meelu> well i can, but i want to intregate it into the current system as most the functions are already there
 894 2011-06-27 10:52:59 <meelu> pixglen*
 895 2011-06-27 10:53:00 <cacheson> meelu: maybe put up an ad in the marketplace on the forum
 896 2011-06-27 10:53:35 <meelu> i can offer all me bitcoins (0.5) to whoever helps me get it working
 897 2011-06-27 10:54:02 <meelu> but i am just looking for help
 898 2011-06-27 10:54:25 <cacheson> post in technical support, then?
 899 2011-06-27 10:54:32 <meelu> i dont know if the forum will bring attention
 900 2011-06-27 10:54:41 <cacheson> or at least, ask here at a busier time
 901 2011-06-27 10:54:48 <cacheson> it's 7 AM where I am right now
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 903 2011-06-27 10:55:15 <meelu> its nearly 12am here
 904 2011-06-27 10:55:22 <cacheson> a lot of bitcoin users are in the US
 905 2011-06-27 10:55:34 <cacheson> so most of them are asleep right now
 906 2011-06-27 10:55:36 <meelu> if you do understand perl though or if anyone does http://pastebin.com/Myve2uAv
 907 2011-06-27 10:55:38 <meelu> just pm me
 908 2011-06-27 10:55:50 <cacheson> I don't, unfortunately
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 935 2011-06-27 11:26:27 <minus> https://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
 936 2011-06-27 11:26:38 <minus> is that ennough testcoins for now? >:D
 937 2011-06-27 11:26:59 <MrSam> :P
 938 2011-06-27 11:27:11 <MrSam> i gave up on testnet
 939 2011-06-27 11:27:14 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r103 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Bugfix from Noa Resare. Resolves issue 29.
 940 2011-06-27 11:27:16 <MrSam> sticking to mrsamnet in a box
 941 2011-06-27 11:27:24 <MrSam> difficulty is better
 942 2011-06-27 11:27:57 <MrSam> maybe a bit to easy , i'm getting 10 blocks a second :P
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 950 2011-06-27 11:38:24 <sacarlson> anyone want to try recieve .01 btc from the first ever attempted escrow transaction on mainnet btc
 951 2011-06-27 11:38:58 <sacarlson> it's now tested on testnet and weedsnet
 952 2011-06-27 11:39:11 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r104 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/BlockChain.java: Don't output an info log for every block downloaded.
 953 2011-06-27 11:39:12 <jeremias> MrSam: on testnet?
 954 2011-06-27 11:39:27 <sacarlson> jeremias: you want to try it on testnet?
 955 2011-06-27 11:39:56 <sacarlson> opps
 956 2011-06-27 11:43:08 <sacarlson> meelu: you can run pearl functions with php, I've integrated python and C with php you can run things like cli with php if you want
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 958 2011-06-27 11:43:38 <prof7bit> pearl?
 959 2011-06-27 11:43:52 <ersi> "first ever attempted escrow"?
 960 2011-06-27 11:44:12 <sacarlson> prof7bit: ya I used to program in pearl too but that was some time back
 961 2011-06-27 11:44:41 <prof7bit> never heard of this language.
 962 2011-06-27 11:45:00 <doublec> sacarlson: perl?
 963 2011-06-27 11:45:15 <sacarlson> prof7bit:  it's from the cave man days when they rubed two sticks oh ya perl
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 968 2011-06-27 11:46:05 <prof7bit> rubed? You mean Ruby on Rails?
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 971 2011-06-27 11:46:42 <sacarlson> prof7bit: no rubed sticks to make fire
 972 2011-06-27 11:46:44 <prof7bit> sorry, i have too much time at the moment
 973 2011-06-27 11:47:09 <sacarlson> prof7bit: as in cave man days
 974 2011-06-27 11:47:16 <minus> <MrSam> maybe a bit to easy , i'm getting 10 blocks a second :P ← how do you get so much?
 975 2011-06-27 11:47:19 <doublec> sacarlson: rubbed
 976 2011-06-27 11:47:35 <sacarlson> doublec: ya ruubbbbed
 977 2011-06-27 11:49:02 <prof7bit> we are all little syntax and grammar nazis
 978 2011-06-27 11:49:09 <sacarlson> minus: why would you complain about 10 blocks per secound as long as your the only one and not another to make a branch
 979 2011-06-27 11:49:35 <prof7bit> because my compiler is a grammar nazi also
 980 2011-06-27 11:50:13 <sacarlson> prof7bit: that's ok I write with as litle efort as posible to get an idea accross
 981 2011-06-27 11:50:40 <prof7bit> i'm only joking. i have too much time.
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 985 2011-06-27 11:56:13 <sacarlson> ersi: yes first ever on main net
 986 2011-06-27 11:56:43 <sacarlson> ersi or first I've ever seen I should say,  maybe someone has already seen them?
 987 2011-06-27 11:57:18 <meelu> sacarlson, i can but i want to just intregate it into the current code i have and not write alot
 988 2011-06-27 11:59:48 <sacarlson> meelu: well you can merge or run this https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/commit/83707c8dd4573bb958f9e504fb6263c8fa1ef942 or try https://github.com/sacarlson/freecoin
 989 2011-06-27 12:00:18 <sacarlson> meelu: freecoin is just a merge of groffer commit
 990 2011-06-27 12:00:38 <meelu> nice, so i just forward them to this?
 991 2011-06-27 12:00:43 <meelu> once i set it up
 992 2011-06-27 12:01:15 <meelu> nvm
 993 2011-06-27 12:01:47 bloodybeet has joined
 994 2011-06-27 12:02:00 <sacarlson> meelu: what' the problem?
 995 2011-06-27 12:02:29 <bloodybeet> hi, i might know who hacked the bitcoin a while ago. Anyone i can talk to ? :]
 996 2011-06-27 12:02:46 <sacarlson> bloodybeet: cool I want to know
 997 2011-06-27 12:02:58 <sacarlson> bloodybeet: was it the rusians?
 998 2011-06-27 12:03:32 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
 999 2011-06-27 12:03:33 <bloodybeet> if i look at https://www.thoroquel.org/tags/bitcoin/
1000 2011-06-27 12:03:37 <sacarlson> bloodybeet: how hacked bitcoin?  I thought you meant mtgox
1001 2011-06-27 12:03:42 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1002 2011-06-27 12:03:46 <bloodybeet> ye that's kind of what i mean
1003 2011-06-27 12:03:48 <bloodybeet> those headers
1004 2011-06-27 12:04:28 <bloodybeet> errr..
1005 2011-06-27 12:04:59 <bloodybeet> i'm not entirely sure nvm :')
1006 2011-06-27 12:06:24 alanp has joined
1007 2011-06-27 12:07:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: are you planning any other big refactors like CWallet yet?
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1010 2011-06-27 12:10:03 <sacarlson> bloodybeet: I was sent an ip list of the last ddos attack he had and it was from all over.  but I think it was a compitition thing as it states in your article but i thought it was another site
1011 2011-06-27 12:12:09 <bloodybeet> ye i dont know anything, nvm xD
1012 2011-06-27 12:12:12 <bloodybeet> misinterpretation
1013 2011-06-27 12:12:42 <sacarlson> anyone have any other ideas how I could create a method to licence minners on smaller block chain networks?
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1016 2011-06-27 12:13:35 <sacarlson> so that only trusted minners could partisipate
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1019 2011-06-27 12:14:14 <sacarlson> or does a branch already exist for such a thing?
1020 2011-06-27 12:14:41 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: if you're talking an alt chain
1021 2011-06-27 12:14:42 <BlueMatt> wait, what do you want to do?
1022 2011-06-27 12:15:19 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes alternate chain with only minners that were trusted
1023 2011-06-27 12:15:57 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: just add a script to the block itself, and require them to pass a checksig op referencing the block they were licensed in in order for any blocks they create to validate and be forwarded
1024 2011-06-27 12:16:02 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: so you could ban a minner if they were to be found doing something wrong also
1025 2011-06-27 12:16:02 <BlueMatt> you could do it so that you limit blocks to only have coinbase txes to a list of trusted sigs
1026 2011-06-27 12:16:15 <jrmithdobbs> oh well that part is harder
1027 2011-06-27 12:16:30 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: ya that sounds about right
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1029 2011-06-27 12:16:55 <BlueMatt> and if majority of miners ban a miner, it will not be able to hold blocks it generated
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1031 2011-06-27 12:17:22 <jrmithdobbs> that would work but isn't validatable in the chain itself
1032 2011-06-27 12:17:48 <BlueMatt> yes it is
1033 2011-06-27 12:17:59 <sacarlson> BlueMatt well in this case the coins are preminted but the minner will recieve transaction fee's to pay for minning but it should take very little power
1034 2011-06-27 12:18:02 <BlueMatt> oh you mean sans client mods to most clients?
1035 2011-06-27 12:18:27 <BlueMatt> not necessarily
1036 2011-06-27 12:18:34 <BlueMatt> you dont have to premint any coins
1037 2011-06-27 12:18:45 oozy_burgler is now known as oozyburglar
1038 2011-06-27 12:19:09 <BlueMatt> just say if coinbase tx does not exist or for each coinbase.txout if to address is not in list, block is invalid
1039 2011-06-27 12:19:54 <sacarlson> BlueMatt ya I think I want that
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1043 2011-06-27 12:20:44 <sacarlson> I'm not sure how you would regulate if some minner sold his rights to his licence maybe have to add some kind of an ip check also
1044 2011-06-27 12:21:09 <BlueMatt> no, you cant really do that
1045 2011-06-27 12:21:18 <BlueMatt> ip checking in bitcoin is virtually impossible
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1048 2011-06-27 12:22:15 <sacarlson> ok well as long as the group he sells his rights to mine don't go bad it should be ok,  but if one fails and has already run up the difficulty and has to be banned then there will be a problem for some time to correct
1049 2011-06-27 12:22:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: are you saying store the whitelist in the chain somewhere?
1050 2011-06-27 12:22:48 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you could do that, but its simpler to just do it in-client if you can
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1052 2011-06-27 12:23:07 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: well the white list would be stored in the config file that could be modified if needed
1053 2011-06-27 12:23:42 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes it would be in the clients config files
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1055 2011-06-27 12:23:58 <jrmithdobbs> white list in client-only seems meh to me, you're at the mecery of the mob at that point
1056 2011-06-27 12:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> mercy
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1058 2011-06-27 12:24:30 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: then the minners no longer rule the mob does
1059 2011-06-27 12:24:35 <BlueMatt> well as long as the clients who matter dont, it doesnt matter
1060 2011-06-27 12:25:27 <BlueMatt> its like regular bitcoin, even if the majority of clients start generating 100 BTC/block, those who dont do that will reject those blocks
1061 2011-06-27 12:25:28 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: but that's not really how it's supposed to work, the validators' jobs is to validate (I forget who started using this term instead of miners, but i like it)
1062 2011-06-27 12:25:49 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: in fact I guess the clients could be selective and pick the minners they want to use
1063 2011-06-27 12:26:14 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: no, then you'd have 50 different forked chains running concurrently and thing would get ugly fast
1064 2011-06-27 12:26:49 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: ya your right there,  there would have to be some central point of consensis
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1067 2011-06-27 12:27:02 <jrmithdobbs> and no way to bootstrap newcomers since there's no way they could garuntee connection to enough discrete nodes that have all the different blocks for all the different forks
1068 2011-06-27 12:27:07 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: not at all
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1072 2011-06-27 12:27:27 <BlueMatt> its a way to create a trusted list of "validators" for each client
1073 2011-06-27 12:28:00 <BlueMatt> as long as there is enough clients who have the list on the alternate network, you shouldnt have problems with forks causing crazy net usage and such
1074 2011-06-27 12:28:06 * unclemantis_home is looking to buy a graphics card but only has BTC to spend.
1075 2011-06-27 12:28:15 <sacarlson> well in a micro network you may only need 3 redundant minners to keep things working when it get's biger they could move to the bitcoin model
1076 2011-06-27 12:28:40 <BlueMatt> why are you trying to do this anyway?
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1078 2011-06-27 12:29:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes but given clients a,b,c,d and validators z,y,x,w let's say clients a,b decide to stop trusting x AND w but c,d say they're a-ok, you've now got a (possibly long-lasting) fork that wont resolve itself until the network of validators grows
1079 2011-06-27 12:29:33 <Kryten> ok
1080 2011-06-27 12:29:37 dr_win has joined
1081 2011-06-27 12:29:52 <sacarlson> BlueMatt to create the posibilty of other smaller secure networks like beertokens to work
1082 2011-06-27 12:30:16 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well, what matters more is that the validators switch and as long as the majority of miners switch to the new list, its ok
1083 2011-06-27 12:30:37 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, a much better way to do that is secondary chain implementations
1084 2011-06-27 12:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> point is, it's something that will happen at some point or another in a system like that
1085 2011-06-27 12:30:56 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I looke at that but I think I would have to pay fee's?
1086 2011-06-27 12:31:03 <jrmithdobbs> and while it's happening the thing will be next to worthless
1087 2011-06-27 12:31:06 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: what, no
1088 2011-06-27 12:31:39 <jrmithdobbs> also, what happens when clients a,b ignore w,x? do they now refuse to hand out w,x's *historic* blocks?
1089 2011-06-27 12:31:48 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: look for TD's implementation details
1090 2011-06-27 12:32:24 <jrmithdobbs> eg, given a new client joining the network, say a,b used to trust w,x but no longer do.... i think you see where i'm going
1091 2011-06-27 12:32:34 <knotwork> I have a new machine that is x86_64 type running Fedora 15, and am trying to compile bitcoin using source that worked on 32 bit x86 in Fedora 14
1092 2011-06-27 12:32:52 <knotwork> I see a lot of complaints about casting a pointer from an integer of a different size
1093 2011-06-27 12:32:57 <jrmithdobbs> client e connects and is only connected to clients a,b ... if it doesn't receive the old blocks from w,x, it now has an invalid chain
1094 2011-06-27 12:33:08 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: I guess same as if a problem happend on bitcoin everyone would be required to upgrade to a new version of the client software, in the case of a roge minner then the central distibution would hand out updated config lists
1095 2011-06-27 12:33:15 <knotwork> so I am guessing it might be trying to use 32 bit integers as pointers despite its now on a 64 bit machine
1096 2011-06-27 12:33:48 <knotwork> there is no ./configure to automagically adjust it for such things, is it even possible to compile on 64 bit using same sources that worked on 32 bit?
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1098 2011-06-27 12:34:44 <BlueMatt> knotwork: it compiles fine on 64-bit for most people
1099 2011-06-27 12:34:47 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs:(07:31:30 PM) jrmithdobbs: client e connects and is only connected to clients a,b .,  yes the same problem I had when I tried testnet with a too old a version, I had to upgrade to make it work
1100 2011-06-27 12:35:08 <knotwork> with no complaints about weird casting of integer to pointer?
1101 2011-06-27 12:35:10 <BlueMatt> knotwork: more details might help
1102 2011-06-27 12:35:13 <BlueMatt> knotwork: nope
1103 2011-06-27 12:35:27 <knotwork> util.h: In function ‘void ExitThread(unsigned int)’:
1104 2011-06-27 12:35:27 <knotwork> util.h:634:25: warning: cast to pointer from integer of different size [-Wint-to-pointer-cast]
1105 2011-06-27 12:36:26 <knotwork> mind you so far I have onlt compiled openssl into a deps directory, I havew not addressed any other dependencies yet
1106 2011-06-27 12:36:48 <knotwork> maybe some dependency it has not actually complained about yet would if it were present have fixed this?
1107 2011-06-27 12:37:03 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1108 2011-06-27 12:37:12 <knotwork> I only installed fedora 15 clean last night, using floppy that installs over the net, and told it I want development box
1109 2011-06-27 12:37:39 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: you have to have a way of tracking which validators were trusted at a snapshot in time within the chain i think
1110 2011-06-27 12:37:45 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: to do it *right*
1111 2011-06-27 12:38:22 <knotwork> okay I have let it go onm past these warnings now it wants boost I guess I will just address such dependencies as they arise and see if in long run they end up getting rid of this pointer/integer complaint
1112 2011-06-27 12:38:41 suriv has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1113 2011-06-27 12:38:48 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: eg, require any validator publishing a block to be listed in the "trusted" field of the block for X% of the last % blocks or similar
1114 2011-06-27 12:38:51 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: well the network is public just as we see things with blockexplorer so they would be audited dayly hourly
1115 2011-06-27 12:38:57 <BlueMatt> knotwork: ah, well it will work fine anyway...we ignore a ton of -W... warnings, its terrible I know, but its just not particularly high on the priorities list
1116 2011-06-27 12:39:09 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: it would take longer to blacklist a validator, but it would also solve most of the fork/abuse issues
1117 2011-06-27 12:39:15 <BlueMatt> knotwork: thats why the makefile only has -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat
1118 2011-06-27 12:39:28 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: on a small network you only need a whitlist of 3
1119 2011-06-27 12:39:39 <knotwork> okay I dont have problem with that as long its its not in fact a problem of mixing 32 bit and 64 bit between pointer and integer
1120 2011-06-27 12:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: but again, for that to work, it puts the power back in the validator's hands
1121 2011-06-27 12:39:52 <knotwork> I would have thought compiler would use same bits for both actually
1122 2011-06-27 12:40:07 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: the validators will always have the power since they're the ones genning the blocks and the only place to store validatable information like that is in the chain ....
1123 2011-06-27 12:40:08 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: what power might that be?
1124 2011-06-27 12:40:18 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: power to white/blacklist other validators
1125 2011-06-27 12:40:35 <knotwork> I probably ignored all warnings on the 32 bit machine its just going to different bits made me worry
1126 2011-06-27 12:40:48 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: no I want the list in the clients hands not only the other minners
1127 2011-06-27 12:40:58 <BlueMatt> knotwork: what makefile are you using anyway?
1128 2011-06-27 12:41:33 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: seriously, use side chains, its much simpler and way more secure
1129 2011-06-27 12:41:42 <knotwork> I had to hack the makefile-unix a lot to get it to work on fedora 14 on the 32 bit box
1130 2011-06-27 12:41:48 <BlueMatt> well much simpler not being that simple, but its the right way to do it
1131 2011-06-27 12:41:52 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: just as a bad block would be orphaned so would a block when created by a black listed or not white listed minner
1132 2011-06-27 12:42:01 <BlueMatt> knotwork: then why did you add a ton of -W...?
1133 2011-06-27 12:42:04 <knotwork> so instead of spending all those hours over again I figured work from that to try to get it working on fedora 15
1134 2011-06-27 12:42:14 <knotwork> I doubt I deliberately added warnings
1135 2011-06-27 12:42:17 <sacarlson> BlueMatt how much would that cost for a transaction this side chain thing?
1136 2011-06-27 12:42:19 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you mean having two concurrent chains in the network or a side chain to 'real' bitcoin?
1137 2011-06-27 12:42:24 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: it wouldnt
1138 2011-06-27 12:42:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: because that's kind of what i was about to propose (the former)
1139 2011-06-27 12:42:38 <knotwork> but maybe didnt really pay attention to what they were when pasting whole swaths of stuff about umpteen dependencies or something
1140 2011-06-27 12:42:59 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, a side chain to main bitcoin chain
1141 2011-06-27 12:43:01 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I thought if I put a zero transaction into bitcoin to side chain I would require to pay .0005 btc
1142 2011-06-27 12:43:09 <knotwork> this is not latest trunk, it was trunk of svn way back when I did it but that was months ago now feb maybe
1143 2011-06-27 12:43:20 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: you dont put a 0 transaction, its in coinbase
1144 2011-06-27 12:43:33 <BlueMatt> and has to be, or it wouldnt be secure
1145 2011-06-27 12:43:41 <knotwork> does latest trunk actually pretty much compile out of the box on fedora ?
1146 2011-06-27 12:44:04 <BlueMatt> knotwork: I thought so, one of the head devs works on fedora all the time afaik
1147 2011-06-27 12:44:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt 0 transaction I mean in btc zero but the transaction would hold value in the side chain but I thought that had a fee on the btc side
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1150 2011-06-27 12:44:27 <knotwork> well back in feb or so I went through hell to make it work on fedora 14
1151 2011-06-27 12:44:45 <knotwork> though maybe actually most of that was making xwidgets work not really bitcoin per se
1152 2011-06-27 12:45:09 <knotwork> it is just bitcoind I am trying to do right now but still I think I hjad to hack makefile some even to do that
1153 2011-06-27 12:45:23 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, a side chain means side chain's blocks are in a merkle stored in coinbase on main chain
1154 2011-06-27 12:45:28 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no txes needed
1155 2011-06-27 12:45:51 <sacarlson> BlueMatt  that sounds good
1156 2011-06-27 12:46:09 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: seriously, go read TD's post
1157 2011-06-27 12:46:16 <sacarlson> BlueMatt well then cancel my last idea,  is that how namecoin works?
1158 2011-06-27 12:46:18 <BlueMatt> it explains how it would be implemented
1159 2011-06-27 12:46:20 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: you could always side chain off your own trust-chain with a static diff too if you *want* clients to be able to vote
1160 2011-06-27 12:46:27 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: it should be, but I dont think so
1161 2011-06-27 12:46:32 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: on trust
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1164 2011-06-27 12:47:06 istat has joined
1165 2011-06-27 12:47:11 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: but voting clients leads to sybil and static diff leads to dos
1166 2011-06-27 12:47:27 istat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1167 2011-06-27 12:47:44 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs:  never perfect calm in the world
1168 2011-06-27 12:47:46 <phungus> wow, the DuckDuckGo search provider for firefox (or something else with DDG) is having a problem with bitcoin mining. It hangs the browser each time a search is performed. The author was super fast in looking at it though and he suspected bitcoin mining without me telling him. :-)
1169 2011-06-27 12:47:55 <BlueMatt> static diff provides no security on top of dynamic diff
1170 2011-06-27 12:48:02 <BlueMatt> why do people keep thinking that?
1171 2011-06-27 12:48:09 <BlueMatt> its total network hash power not diff
1172 2011-06-27 12:48:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's for the opposite reason of security in this case
1173 2011-06-27 12:48:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he *wants* clients, not validators, to be able to determine the trust chain
1174 2011-06-27 12:48:53 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I assume when you say side chain that the sub chain links to bitcoin correct?
1175 2011-06-27 12:49:03 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the only way to ensure clients can do that is to ensure validators with large ammounts of hashing power can't inflate the diff
1176 2011-06-27 12:49:10 <BlueMatt> no side chain and subchains, just side chains
1177 2011-06-27 12:49:30 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: I just want security on a small network at a cheap price
1178 2011-06-27 12:49:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: where's td's thread about this?
1179 2011-06-27 12:49:46 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: dont remember search on the forums for side chain implementation details
1180 2011-06-27 12:49:54 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: and thats what side chains offer
1181 2011-06-27 12:50:00 DukeOfURL has joined
1182 2011-06-27 12:50:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not hitting anything
1183 2011-06-27 12:50:27 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: why i was asking.
1184 2011-06-27 12:50:33 pmazur_ has joined
1185 2011-06-27 12:50:35 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I think I read it and asked here about it before but I was pushed down by luke-jr about the fee's that I would have to pay
1186 2011-06-27 12:50:36 <BlueMatt> by [mike]
1187 2011-06-27 12:50:55 <BlueMatt> well then luke was mistaken or didnt understand you
1188 2011-06-27 12:50:59 <BlueMatt> there is no fee involved
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1191 2011-06-27 12:51:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt and that most of the minners would reject a side net link
1192 2011-06-27 12:51:10 LightRider has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1193 2011-06-27 12:51:11 <b4epoche> sacarlson:  I'm not sure I'd pay much attention to luke-jr
1194 2011-06-27 12:51:14 <jrmithdobbs> this one?
1195 2011-06-27 12:51:14 <jrmithdobbs> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.0
1196 2011-06-27 12:51:27 <BlueMatt> that is the only problem, you have to get miners on bitcoin main chain to accept side chain in coinbase
1197 2011-06-27 12:51:35 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: thats the one
1198 2011-06-27 12:51:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: i have some ideas for other refactorings, but nothing concrete yet :)
1199 2011-06-27 12:52:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: care to share, Ive been thinking a bit too, and kind of think that that should be next on the priorities list
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1201 2011-06-27 12:52:30 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the bdb code is starting to bubble up
1202 2011-06-27 12:52:33 <jrmithdobbs> especially in osx
1203 2011-06-27 12:52:43 <BlueMatt> what bdb code?
1204 2011-06-27 12:52:59 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the way bitcoin uses bdb in general re: transactions
1205 2011-06-27 12:53:04 <BlueMatt> you mean the bug on how slow bdb is in bitcoin on osx?
1206 2011-06-27 12:53:13 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1207 2011-06-27 12:53:21 <jrmithdobbs> it's not osx-specific, just particularly bad on osx
1208 2011-06-27 12:53:46 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes I read that article and talked about it before, so now I will go back and explore the linked chain method as I think what bluemat was saying
1209 2011-06-27 12:53:48 <BlueMatt> yea, that is a problem, care to do something about it?
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1211 2011-06-27 12:54:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: alot of the major problem could be fixed by fixing addr.dat node selection and adding pruning i think
1212 2011-06-27 12:54:39 <jrmithdobbs> though the latter wont be helpful (maybe even make things worse) until enough nodes have upgraded as old nodes will just continue to spam out every addr that's ever connected to the network
1213 2011-06-27 12:54:48 istat has joined
1214 2011-06-27 12:55:09 <jrmithdobbs> i don't have time right now, i've looked at it a bit :(
1215 2011-06-27 12:55:28 <sipa> BlueMatt: a listener framework, where there is one central part (the block database), to which other classes subscribe to receive notifications about new blocks/reorga/new tx's/..., so p2p, rpc, gui, monitoring stuff, could become completely separate components only communicating though that hub
1216 2011-06-27 12:55:31 <sacarlson> (07:50:00 PM) BlueMatt: that is the only problem, you have to get miners on bitcoin main chain to accept side chain in coinbase,  and how do I go about doing such a thing and why would they be motivated to partisipate?
1217 2011-06-27 12:55:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: and something similar for wallets probably, where only rpc and gui connect to
1218 2011-06-27 12:56:06 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  where should I be seeing the slowness of bdb on osx?
1219 2011-06-27 12:56:07 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: well, you just need some major set of miners, it doesnt effect them in any significant way, just adds a bit more net traffic on their bitcoind...
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1221 2011-06-27 12:56:33 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: watch the io-ops/s on addr.dat, wallet.dat, and database/*log
1222 2011-06-27 12:56:44 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: it's not "slow" it just writes something crazy like 300MB/hr
1223 2011-06-27 12:56:59 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: well, that's not "slow" for me anyways, thnx ssd
1224 2011-06-27 12:57:03 <sacarlson> BlueMatt:  sorry I just don't think I would have the power to do anything like that,  but I'll still look into it
1225 2011-06-27 12:57:26 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: *on an idle client*
1226 2011-06-27 12:57:28 <b4epoche> I built bdb4.8 myself and got that working...  the macports version was giving db loading errors on db's it created
1227 2011-06-27 12:57:59 <b4epoche> so, does bdb5.1 fix that, or are people thinking some sql implementation?
1228 2011-06-27 12:58:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea been thinking something similar, you get libclient which handles a wallet, which subscribes to the central thing, then launches net which gets blocks/txes etc, then all uis just connect to a libclient
1229 2011-06-27 12:58:32 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I'm not even sure I can get an escrow trasaction into a minner let alone a linked chain but I know very little
1230 2011-06-27 12:58:53 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: well if you implement it, Im sure many miners would jump on board
1231 2011-06-27 12:59:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: main advantage is that all components become interchangable with alternatives
1232 2011-06-27 12:59:08 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: at least one or two of the big pools would, which would be enough
1233 2011-06-27 12:59:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: yep, though I prefer to see main advantage as ease of making new uis and new program which subscribes to central notification lib
1234 2011-06-27 13:00:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: which is for unit tests very useful, you could create two dummy memory-only wallets connected to the same hub, and do some transactions
1235 2011-06-27 13:00:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: that too
1236 2011-06-27 13:00:39 <sipa> and indeed just decreasing the barrier to create a new/alternative component
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1238 2011-06-27 13:00:57 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: I'm not seeing any disk activity on my idle client (although I can't remember how to watch specific file disk activity), I'm seeing between 0 and 10 KB/s on an otherwise idle system.
1239 2011-06-27 13:01:49 <Optimo> wishes do come true. the board is nearly all green :)
1240 2011-06-27 13:02:04 <b4epoche> eh?
1241 2011-06-27 13:02:33 <Optimo> bitcoincharts.com
1242 2011-06-27 13:02:45 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: i'd have to look again, but it's definitely doing excessive writes. someone was in here a day or two ago profiling it and providing numbers
1243 2011-06-27 13:02:51 <pasky> aaw, no reaction to my pull request
1244 2011-06-27 13:03:03 Gunni has joined
1245 2011-06-27 13:03:12 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: look through the public logs
1246 2011-06-27 13:03:14 <Optimo> I was mumbling yesteday ...best thing for bitcoin after mtgox reopens would be all green tickers
1247 2011-06-27 13:03:27 <b4epoche> ah...
1248 2011-06-27 13:03:34 <b4epoche> Optimo:  you see p/m?
1249 2011-06-27 13:03:40 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: btw, gmaxwell has some work in-progress related to better peer selection, once he's got that sorted pruning is trivial
1250 2011-06-27 13:04:04 TheAncientGoat has joined
1251 2011-06-27 13:04:58 <b4epoche> so, how are the trading volumes?  mtgox back to normal?  th take a hit?
1252 2011-06-27 13:07:32 <BlueMatt> mtgox no where near back to normal
1253 2011-06-27 13:07:50 prax has joined
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1257 2011-06-27 13:08:35 <doublec> trading a normal range though
1258 2011-06-27 13:09:24 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1259 2011-06-27 13:10:33 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r105 /trunk/pom.xml: Checked in extra POM code. Patch by Gary Rowe.
1260 2011-06-27 13:10:35 larsivi has joined
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1263 2011-06-27 13:12:11 caedes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1264 2011-06-27 13:12:40 <b4epoche> is there a way to search logs?
1265 2011-06-27 13:13:21 LightRider has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1266 2011-06-27 13:13:33 <minus> grep <search term here> moddata/logs/\#bitcoin-dev* :D
1267 2011-06-27 13:14:40 <b4epoche> online logs
1268 2011-06-27 13:14:55 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: BlueMatt: I read that article again http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.0  and all point to the fact that there is no way that a side chain will be free.  It continues to point out the fact that the minners have and will continue to rase fee's.   I must be missing something in this about some way to free link transactions into bitcoin.
1269 2011-06-27 13:15:06 LightRider has joined
1270 2011-06-27 13:16:06 <upb> sacarlson: btw why are you doing stuff like creating weeds and beers ?
1271 2011-06-27 13:16:09 <upb> whats the point
1272 2011-06-27 13:16:41 <sacarlson> upb:  see http://www.beertokens.info
1273 2011-06-27 13:17:03 <sacarlson> upb: as well as having other networks with other features
1274 2011-06-27 13:17:18 mmoya has joined
1275 2011-06-27 13:17:31 <sacarlson> upb: different transaction speeds, escrow ...
1276 2011-06-27 13:17:33 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1277 2011-06-27 13:18:14 <sacarlson> upb: and why not?
1278 2011-06-27 13:18:57 tandy80_ has joined
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1282 2011-06-27 13:19:48 <upb> ok i read it :)
1283 2011-06-27 13:19:57 <upb> its very different from bitcoin
1284 2011-06-27 13:20:26 <upb> i would say that the beers are more fair than bitcoin in terms of inital distribution
1285 2011-06-27 13:20:31 <sacarlson> upb: it's just another concept, maybe not THE concept
1286 2011-06-27 13:21:00 Katibe has joined
1287 2011-06-27 13:22:05 <knotwork> I like the idea of freecoin's configurability though last time I looked at it I wasnt sure if it supported the variants I have been using
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1289 2011-06-27 13:22:32 <sacarlson> knotwork: what variants might those be?
1290 2011-06-27 13:23:07 <sacarlson> knotwork: if there are others we would like to add them
1291 2011-06-27 13:23:09 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1292 2011-06-27 13:23:12 <knotwork> mine are same as -testnet except for the genesis block
1293 2011-06-27 13:23:24 <sacarlson> knotwork: yes then they will work
1294 2011-06-27 13:23:34 <knotwork> it wasnt clear to me of freecoin allows the halving of number of coins issued each X number of blocks
1295 2011-06-27 13:23:48 kermit has joined
1296 2011-06-27 13:23:53 <knotwork> as notes only explicitly mentioned having one point at which number issued changes
1297 2011-06-27 13:24:07 <sacarlson> knotwork: it has other controls but you don't have to change them if you don't want to
1298 2011-06-27 13:24:31 <knotwork> well it looks like it might be useful to mess with the number issued actually
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1302 2011-06-27 13:24:52 <knotwork> as I just made very trivial changes to support the new coin types I created
1303 2011-06-27 13:24:54 <sacarlson> knotwork: give me your root block and I'll add a config file to support it
1304 2011-06-27 13:25:28 <sacarlson> knotwork: then you will be able to do your chain and all the other with just one software
1305 2011-06-27 13:25:37 <knotwork> and it looks like some of the Freeciv Galactic Milieu nations might actually prefer to mint most of their coins fast so they can open up their network to tom dick and harry
1306 2011-06-27 13:26:07 <sacarlson> knotwork: sure any why they wish it to be
1307 2011-06-27 13:26:20 Katibe has joined
1308 2011-06-27 13:26:38 <knotwork> that is the problem you see, these "nations" do not want to release their root block details because they do not want to have to "back" coins minted by tom dick and harry
1309 2011-06-27 13:26:39 <sacarlson> knotwork: and we hope to make even small networks secure as they are not yet
1310 2011-06-27 13:27:17 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: jrmithdobbs I see no mention of fees there
1311 2011-06-27 13:27:18 <sacarlson> knotwork: you can't mint them even if you wanted to once minted
1312 2011-06-27 13:27:53 <knotwork> yes the problem is in each coming up with one policy and sticking to it
1313 2011-06-27 13:28:02 <upb> haha how can a bitcoin based currency depend on the secrecy of the root block!?
1314 2011-06-27 13:28:09 <upb> every client must have it anyway
1315 2011-06-27 13:28:30 <knotwork> the current system will only really work if they keep their networks private for several years before opening up mining to "outsiders" / "foreigners"
1316 2011-06-27 13:28:58 <knotwork> upb, currently it works by only branches of that nation's bank having a thick clients
1317 2011-06-27 13:29:13 <upb> oh
1318 2011-06-27 13:29:32 <knotwork> in theory eventually all the nations throughout the galaxies could all help secure each others banking networks
1319 2011-06-27 13:29:42 <knotwork> but initially there is not enough trust for that
1320 2011-06-27 13:29:46 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I counted the number of the word fee in the article it comes out to 33 times
1321 2011-06-27 13:30:00 <knotwork> so each "nation" keeps its interstellar banking network links secret from others
1322 2011-06-27 13:30:18 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, thats some other guy's subsequent post. the actual article TD wrote has fee once
1323 2011-06-27 13:30:27 <knotwork> banking is done by things such as e.g. /msg nickebot help
1324 2011-06-27 13:30:41 <knotwork> oops I mean /msg nickelbot help
1325 2011-06-27 13:30:48 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well I read all the links to the article then not just the top one
1326 2011-06-27 13:31:09 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: well the post by goblin is incorrect, Im really not sure what hes even talking about
1327 2011-06-27 13:31:17 <knotwork> I have a server that has daemons for each nation's currency, the bots thus can work with any of the currencies on behalf of the players
1328 2011-06-27 13:31:31 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, hm? which one?
1329 2011-06-27 13:31:49 <knotwork> most players dont even run a daemon, so only mining is my ancient CPU mining 8 or so currencies at once
1330 2011-06-27 13:31:55 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: actually, no, hes talking about something unrelated to alternate chains, hes talking about something that can be done with them, not about them themselves
1331 2011-06-27 13:32:06 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: no goblin not UukGoblin http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.msg106194#msg106194
1332 2011-06-27 13:32:26 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, it's me
1333 2011-06-27 13:32:38 Faraday has quit ()
1334 2011-06-27 13:33:12 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: oh, well in any case, its a use of the alternative chains, not the chains themselves hence sacarlson's confusion
1335 2011-06-27 13:33:14 <knotwork> these currencies are somewhat like beertokens in being similar to shares of a trust
1336 2011-06-27 13:33:19 CheapScotsman has joined
1337 2011-06-27 13:33:36 <knotwork> nickelbot keeps for each currency accounts in each other currency
1338 2011-06-27 13:33:37 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, I'm talking there (and around there) about a timestamping service that wouldn't need any alternative chains. p2p dns could be based upon this timestamping service too, imho
1339 2011-06-27 13:33:40 PatrikR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1340 2011-06-27 13:33:52 <knotwork> so it knows how many of each type have been used to buy which other type
1341 2011-06-27 13:34:23 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: yep, and that particular post is unrelated to alternative chains, but could be a use of alternative chains
1342 2011-06-27 13:34:23 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, I was proposing to drop the idea of alternative chains altogether. The main chain is good enough.
1343 2011-06-27 13:34:32 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, yes, correct
1344 2011-06-27 13:34:38 <knotwork> that results in a kind of federal reserve for each currency, its collection of all the various other types that it has bought and that it can thus use to buy itself back, "backing" itself in terms of all the others
1345 2011-06-27 13:34:39 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: no, alternative chains are a 1000x times better way of doing it
1346 2011-06-27 13:34:41 <UukGoblin> (more or less)
1347 2011-06-27 13:35:05 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, I disagree
1348 2011-06-27 13:35:17 <BlueMatt> satoshi, me, and TD agree here ;)
1349 2011-06-27 13:35:37 <BlueMatt> and I really dont feel like debating this with you for the 10th time
1350 2011-06-27 13:35:43 <UukGoblin> satoshi not directly, and I've got nanotube and theymos and gavin agreeing with me
1351 2011-06-27 13:35:47 <knotwork> for example if britcoins were used to buy beertokens, the brit bank would thus have beertokens with which it could "back" its britcoins
1352 2011-06-27 13:35:53 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, yeah, let's not
1353 2011-06-27 13:36:10 <BlueMatt> no, youve got everyone agreeing that its impossible to prevent, not that its a better solution
1354 2011-06-27 13:36:44 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, that's gavin, actually
1355 2011-06-27 13:37:03 <UukGoblin> the two former guys agreed it's better, or at least seemed to a few months ago
1356 2011-06-27 13:37:12 <UukGoblin> anyway :-X
1357 2011-06-27 13:37:13 dr_win has joined
1358 2011-06-27 13:37:25 <BlueMatt> anyway, doesnt matter
1359 2011-06-27 13:38:24 b4epoche has joined
1360 2011-06-27 13:38:45 <sacarlson> UukGoblin: so you mean that they will never allow alternate chains linked into bitcoins?
1361 2011-06-27 13:38:59 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, thats not what he said
1362 2011-06-27 13:39:00 Nicksasa has joined
1363 2011-06-27 13:39:22 <MrSam> hello world
1364 2011-06-27 13:39:48 <BlueMatt> alternative chains are an elegant solution to having alternate bitcoin-style chains and not effect mainline bitcoin chain at all
1365 2011-06-27 13:40:16 <BlueMatt> or you could do as UukGoblin suggests and just fill the main chain with a shitton of random data and pay a fee for each one
1366 2011-06-27 13:40:55 <knotwork> sacarlson your beertokens jump us instantly into the future time when the only reward for mining is fees. I think most of my "nations" had in mind to just do more of a gradual rollout where initially they "back" the coins then some day in the future, possibly, they might open ming and it would still have some minting involved even then
1367 2011-06-27 13:41:38 lumos has joined
1368 2011-06-27 13:41:58 <knotwork> sacarlson basically they didnt want to honour other people's coins initially, they wanted to honour their own and build reserves of everyone else's with which to do so
1369 2011-06-27 13:42:33 <knotwork> sacarlson I guess basically they bought into the mises theory that initially a currency has to actually buy something to have value
1370 2011-06-27 13:42:55 <sacarlson> knotwork: ya like beer
1371 2011-06-27 13:43:00 <knotwork> sacarlson so they all want their "nation" to have something to trade, and sell it for their own coins
1372 2011-06-27 13:43:08 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1373 2011-06-27 13:43:18 <sacarlson> knotwork: and that's what I'm going to go buy right now,  thanks for all the chat all
1374 2011-06-27 13:43:19 <knotwork> yes like beer, but you did beer since then, but Italian nation for example might do wine
1375 2011-06-27 13:44:26 xtalmath has joined
1376 2011-06-27 13:45:06 <b4epoche> I think he's got the Jamaican's covered
1377 2011-06-27 13:45:13 <knotwork> :)
1378 2011-06-27 13:45:17 <knotwork> ya mon
1379 2011-06-27 13:45:44 emock has joined
1380 2011-06-27 13:45:53 <xtalmath> Yesterdat I asked a few questions regarding user privileges, and was referred to SELinux, now WikiPedia's SELinux entry states: "(SELinux has been integrated into version 2.6 series of the Linux  kernel, and separate patches are now unnecessary; the above is a  historical quote.)" Does this mean Ubuntu 10.04 has SELinux builtin? is it enabled or does it have to be enabled?
1381 2011-06-27 13:45:54 vokoda has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1383 2011-06-27 13:46:04 <knotwork> in the Freeciv Galactic Milieu they were thinking mostly of selling tehnologies, settler units, starships, military units, maybe even planets or peace treaties etc
1384 2011-06-27 13:46:30 <UukGoblin> knotwork, for bitcoins?
1385 2011-06-27 13:46:35 glassresistor has joined
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1388 2011-06-27 13:47:13 <knotwork> UukGoblin in Freeciv is a nation categorised as fictional, known as Hackers. it is to that nation we attribute satoshi's "original" bitcoins
1389 2011-06-27 13:47:39 <knotwork> from Hackers, the Martians gained the technology; it is not expected that Martian Botcoins will be as valued as Bitcoins
1390 2011-06-27 13:48:08 <knotwork> Martians in turn have given the technology to others, who in turn as in some cases as far below Martians in tech as Martians are below hackers
1391 2011-06-27 13:48:30 <knotwork> so those other nations' coins are not expected to be valued as highly as Martian Botcoins
1392 2011-06-27 13:49:10 <UukGoblin> that doesn't really answer my question... but nvmd ;-]
1393 2011-06-27 13:49:39 <knotwork> doubtless many people having any of the other types of coins would love to trade them for bitcoins
1394 2011-06-27 13:49:49 <xtalmath> nm: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#selinux
1395 2011-06-27 13:50:00 <knotwork> but, how much would they likely get in bitcoins for their coins?
1396 2011-06-27 13:50:19 emock has quit (Quit: emock)
1397 2011-06-27 13:50:49 <knotwork> typically a game would cost a few bucks every once in a while, either a monthly subscription or an occasional blowing of a few bucks for a whole bunch of game-resources
1398 2011-06-27 13:51:15 <knotwork> so it is expected bitcoins would only come into the system in small quantities compared to the amount of game-currency flowing in the games
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1409 2011-06-27 13:54:28 <knotwork> the markets to and from bitcoins would probably be very jagged, and in lumps, like "1 bitcoin for such and such a spaceship" followed by players running around trying to be first to come up with whatever someone has offered bitcoins for
1410 2011-06-27 13:54:31 Sedra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1412 2011-06-27 13:56:49 <knotwork> part of the game will be how to sufficiently commoditise some product or service to be able to build a reliable market for it in terms of the various curruencies, hopefully incuding bitcoins as well as beertokens etc
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1417 2011-06-27 14:07:06 <upb> xtalmath: btw i found a solution for 26 23:10 < xtalmath> not good enough, I ask for a collision X,Y SHA256(X)=SHA256(Y)
1418 2011-06-27 14:07:41 <vegard> X=Y :-P
1419 2011-06-27 14:07:50 <upb> you ruined it but yes :)
1420 2011-06-27 14:08:03 <vegard> oops.
1421 2011-06-27 14:08:27 <upb> he promised to give all his BTC if anyone finds a solution lol :)
1422 2011-06-27 14:09:07 <vegard> what time is it now?
1423 2011-06-27 14:09:12 <MrSam> 16:07:39 < vegard> what time is it now?
1424 2011-06-27 14:09:18 <MrSam> or do you mean
1425 2011-06-27 14:09:22 <MrSam> 'Time to party?'
1426 2011-06-27 14:09:29 <vegard> upb: what time is it now?
1427 2011-06-27 14:09:39 <MrSam> :P
1428 2011-06-27 14:09:46 <vegard> MrSam: that doesn't help, I want to find out when xtalmath wrote that :-P
1429 2011-06-27 14:10:12 Katapult has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1430 2011-06-27 14:10:17 <MrSam> everyone should have unix timestamp in their irc clients
1431 2011-06-27 14:10:44 <upb> vegard: 17:09
1432 2011-06-27 14:11:15 <upb> better use CTCP TIME :)
1433 2011-06-27 14:11:22 <upb> btw someone screwed up http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/order-book/#
1434 2011-06-27 14:11:30 <upb> binds are in wrong direction
1435 2011-06-27 14:11:32 <vegard> I didn't know about that!
1436 2011-06-27 14:12:06 <upb> bids*
1437 2011-06-27 14:12:40 <knotwork> the latest trunk svn of bitcoind has some upnp thing in it, is there a way to turn off that dependency? commenting out the stuff about it in makefile.unix donest actually stop code from trying to use it in some kind of serialisation step
1438 2011-06-27 14:12:44 <mtrlt> upb: hmm? seems right to me
1439 2011-06-27 14:13:39 <doublec> knotwork: make -f makefile.unix USE_UPNP=
1440 2011-06-27 14:13:55 <knotwork> ahh thanks
1441 2011-06-27 14:13:56 <doublec> knotwork: will disable it during build
1442 2011-06-27 14:14:07 <upb> mtrlt: for me it shows small bids at top
1443 2011-06-27 14:14:16 <mtrlt> upb: what browser? :P
1444 2011-06-27 14:14:19 <mtrlt> i use chrome
1445 2011-06-27 14:14:20 <upb> ff4
1446 2011-06-27 14:14:25 <mtrlt> chrome 12
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1449 2011-06-27 14:14:53 <upb> yeah so javascript sorting is buggy in ff4 when dealing with bids :)
1450 2011-06-27 14:15:00 <knotwork> nope, it still tries to link to it
1451 2011-06-27 14:15:38 <knotwork> I did make -f makefile.unix USE_PNP= bitcoind
1452 2011-06-27 14:15:52 <knotwork> but it died trying to link a pnp library
1453 2011-06-27 14:16:12 <upb> hmm works now on refresh but no order execution is shown
1454 2011-06-27 14:16:44 <b4epoche_> knotwork:  you can edit the makefile
1455 2011-06-27 14:17:25 <knotwork> yeah I tried, I commented out all the defines about it, but still some serialise / unserialise code mentioned it and died
1456 2011-06-27 14:17:34 molecular has joined
1457 2011-06-27 14:17:40 <upb> yep i noticed that too :)
1458 2011-06-27 14:18:14 <b4epoche_> I've notice that some compilers take a very liberal view of defined()
1459 2011-06-27 14:18:33 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r106 /trunk/README: Update README to talk about Maven.
1460 2011-06-27 14:18:45 <knotwork> /usr/src/bitcoin/trunk/db.cpp:811: undefined reference to `fUseUPnP'
1461 2011-06-27 14:18:50 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r107 /trunk/pom.xml: Attempt to exclude Bouncy Castle from javadocs/coverage reports. Doesn't work for coverage for some reason.
1462 2011-06-27 14:19:14 <doublec> knotwork: make clean first. It's probably pulling in code you built before doing the USE_UPNP= thing
1463 2011-06-27 14:19:16 <knotwork> db.cpp has no #ifdef around that at all
1464 2011-06-27 14:19:24 <knotwork> ahhh thanks will try that
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1466 2011-06-27 14:20:12 <knotwork> thanks that looks like it is going to work
1467 2011-06-27 14:20:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r108 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/ (core/Block.java examples/PingService.java): Minor fixes.
1468 2011-06-27 14:20:53 falafell has joined
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1470 2011-06-27 14:21:05 <knotwork> it seems part of why I hacked the makefile originally was to use static boost libs so people could use bitcoind binary without needing boost shared libs installed
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1472 2011-06-27 14:21:33 <b4epoche_> fUseUPnP is just taken from the command line…  is the default 'true'?
1473 2011-06-27 14:21:58 <knotwork> clean fixed it, it was and old .o trying to be linked probably
1474 2011-06-27 14:22:27 espes has quit (Quit: espes)
1475 2011-06-27 14:22:59 <knotwork> yay, now I have a 64 bit bitcoind with static boost
1476 2011-06-27 14:23:29 <knotwork> and static non-standard-for-fedora ssl
1477 2011-06-27 14:23:47 datagutt has joined
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1481 2011-06-27 14:24:09 <knotwork> (fedora doesnt like some stupid patent crap involved in something bitcoin uses)
1482 2011-06-27 14:26:31 tandy80 has joined
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1488 2011-06-27 14:28:45 <gmaxwell> knotwork: as far as I can tell, bitcoin doesn't use any of the patent ecc stuff— but openssl ships support for it, causing fedora to patch out all the ecc stuff as openssl doesn't make it easily separable.
1489 2011-06-27 14:28:48 <denisx> is there a way that my bitcoind keeps a connection free for my pushpoold?
1490 2011-06-27 14:28:54 <Akinava> hipeople, please help me find a signature point and signature.r signature.s, in a transaction http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/a2844948747244e5582b385e86de85b386443353cfe6803091ac50257baf7ee7
1491 2011-06-27 14:29:05 <denisx> sometimes all connections are used by other nodes and my pushpool cant connect
1492 2011-06-27 14:29:20 tandy80_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1493 2011-06-27 14:29:33 <sipa> Akinava: look for a 65-bytes structure starting with a 0x04 byte
1494 2011-06-27 14:29:40 datagut__ has joined
1495 2011-06-27 14:29:50 <sipa> the 32 following bytes are r in big endian, the next 32 bytes are s in big endian
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1497 2011-06-27 14:29:52 <knotwork> gmaxwell ok so fedora doesnt like some stupid patent stuff openssl pulls in along with something bitcoin uses (?)
1498 2011-06-27 14:30:24 sathyabhat has joined
1499 2011-06-27 14:30:27 <Akinava> sipa, I think you show me the key
1500 2011-06-27 14:30:40 <sipa> ah damn, you are right
1501 2011-06-27 14:30:45 <xtalmath> ups: upb: xtalmath: btw i found a solution for 26 23:10 < xtalmath> not good enough, I ask for a _collision_ X,Y SHA256(X)=SHA256(Y)
1502 2011-06-27 14:30:45 <xtalmath> WikiPedia Collision (computer science): "In computer science, a collision or clash is a situation that occurs when two _distinct_ pieces of data have the same hash value, checksum, fingerprint, or cryptographic digest."
1503 2011-06-27 14:30:48 <sipa> signatures are 72 bytes, not 65
1504 2011-06-27 14:30:53 <sipa> and use some weird encoding
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1513 2011-06-27 14:33:40 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r109 /trunk/ (100 files in 11 dirs): Move javadocs to the maven directory, check in fresh set
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1516 2011-06-27 14:35:11 <taub> hey im trying to use the json rpc wth perl, trying to run this line
1517 2011-06-27 14:35:22 Katapult has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1518 2011-06-27 14:35:28 <taub> $obj = {method=>'move',params=>[$_,"account2",$money],}; but it always fails
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1520 2011-06-27 14:35:44 datagutt2 is now known as datagutt
1521 2011-06-27 14:35:46 <taub> it works tho if i put in a numbe for $money
1522 2011-06-27 14:36:16 <taub> i mean $money is a number, bit the bitcoind daemon returns 500 error
1523 2011-06-27 14:36:24 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r110 /trunk/TODO: Refresh the TODO file
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1525 2011-06-27 14:36:56 <zapnap> anyone using pushpool?
1526 2011-06-27 14:37:07 <zapnap> wish i could get it to compile on os x or freebsd :/
1527 2011-06-27 14:37:17 <upb> xtalmath: –adjective  1. distinguished as not being the same; not identical; separate (sometimes followed by from ):
1528 2011-06-27 14:37:19 <zapnap> anyone tried that or have a fork working?
1529 2011-06-27 14:37:23 <MrSam> zapnap: sure
1530 2011-06-27 14:37:24 <upb> xtalmath: but it doesnt say inequal :)
1531 2011-06-27 14:37:27 <MrSam> works as described
1532 2011-06-27 14:37:30 <upb> they can be separate but equal :D
1533 2011-06-27 14:38:03 <zapnap> MrSam: hmm, no... doesn't. won't compile because of the non-existence of linux byteswap.h / endian.h stuff
1534 2011-06-27 14:38:09 falafell has joined
1535 2011-06-27 14:38:15 <MrSam> no idea
1536 2011-06-27 14:38:16 <zapnap> unless you know something i don't ;-)
1537 2011-06-27 14:38:25 <zapnap> so you haven't, then, tried it on os x or freebsd
1538 2011-06-27 14:38:26 <zapnap> ?
1539 2011-06-27 14:38:46 <MrSam> i compiled miniupnpc-1.5 , wxWidgets-2.9.1
1540 2011-06-27 14:38:52 <MrSam> and a few other things
1541 2011-06-27 14:38:57 <zapnap> on what os?
1542 2011-06-27 14:39:01 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r111 /branches/release-0.2: Branching for 0.2
1543 2011-06-27 14:39:02 <MrSam> snow leopard
1544 2011-06-27 14:39:09 <MrSam> and debian 64bit as well
1545 2011-06-27 14:39:20 <b4epoche_> MrSam:  you want to try out CocoaBitcoin?
1546 2011-06-27 14:39:36 <zapnap> what does that have to do with pushpool? (not trying to be a dick, seriously curious... do those provide the needed abstractions?)
1547 2011-06-27 14:39:39 <MrSam> b4epoche_: not if a have to compile it :P compiling bitcoin takes longer then finding a block
1548 2011-06-27 14:39:51 <samlander> are there any plans of building in an encryption mechanism on the wallet.dat direct from the client?
1549 2011-06-27 14:39:58 <b4epoche_> MrSam:  no compilation needed
1550 2011-06-27 14:40:01 <samlander> aka, user has option of setting up password on open?
1551 2011-06-27 14:40:03 <b4epoche_> and I agree
1552 2011-06-27 14:40:03 <MrSam> sure send it over
1553 2011-06-27 14:40:25 <doublec> samlander: yes there's a patch for it
1554 2011-06-27 14:40:27 <b4epoche> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1041468/CocoaBitcoin.app.zip
1555 2011-06-27 14:40:38 <b4epoche> uses testnet in ~/.bitcoin
1556 2011-06-27 14:40:51 kon is now known as Kothar
1557 2011-06-27 14:40:53 <doublec> samlander: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/232
1558 2011-06-27 14:41:10 <MrSam> b4epoche_: so far so good
1559 2011-06-27 14:41:16 <MrSam> waiting for connections
1560 2011-06-27 14:41:27 <zapnap> MrSam: i guess you were talking about compiling bitcoin not pushpool?
1561 2011-06-27 14:41:40 <samlander> doublec: is that linux only? Im a windows user
1562 2011-06-27 14:41:55 <doublec> samlander: it's for the bitcoin client so is for all platforms supported by bitcoin
1563 2011-06-27 14:41:57 <MrSam> zapnap: both, bitcoin takes long and pushpool works fine, but you need to compile some dependency's
1564 2011-06-27 14:42:09 <MrSam> b4epoche_: fetching blocks
1565 2011-06-27 14:42:18 <zapnap> MrSam: so does wxwidgets or miniupnpc somehow add byteswap.h and endian.h support? seems strange.
1566 2011-06-27 14:42:23 <zapnap> bitcoin is working fine, fwiw
1567 2011-06-27 14:42:26 pyro-DerWahre- has joined
1568 2011-06-27 14:42:29 <zapnap> just can't get pushpool compiling
1569 2011-06-27 14:42:34 <zapnap> (for reasons stated above)
1570 2011-06-27 14:43:00 <MrSam> b4epoche_: no prefrences screen ?
1571 2011-06-27 14:43:25 <doublec> zapnap: on ubuntu they're from libc6-dev
1572 2011-06-27 14:43:33 freakazoid has joined
1573 2011-06-27 14:43:50 <zapnap> doublec: right. works fine on ubuntu (w/ libc6)
1574 2011-06-27 14:44:13 <zapnap> but mac's libc equivalent isn't the same if i understand correctly, since it's bsd-based
1575 2011-06-27 14:44:20 <zapnap> freebsd would have the same issue presumably
1576 2011-06-27 14:44:30 <zapnap> (no probs compiling under ubuntu fwiw)
1577 2011-06-27 14:44:33 <MrSam> zapnap: do you have fink or some other macports thing ?
1578 2011-06-27 14:44:39 <MrSam> maybe that fixed my dep's
1579 2011-06-27 14:44:39 <zapnap> MrSam: absolutely
1580 2011-06-27 14:44:50 <xtalmath> upb: how do you write identical in mathematics?
1581 2011-06-27 14:44:53 <MrSam> i do compile alot of stuff on my macbook :/
1582 2011-06-27 14:45:05 <zapnap> i had to install libevent and libmemcached from source though
1583 2011-06-27 14:45:12 <zapnap> to get configure to run
1584 2011-06-27 14:45:17 <zapnap> (also installed the port version)
1585 2011-06-27 14:45:31 <zapnap> configure for pushpool looks for them in /usr/local
1586 2011-06-27 14:45:34 <b4epoche_> MrSam:  who needs preferences?
1587 2011-06-27 14:45:38 btcrowan has joined
1588 2011-06-27 14:45:46 <MrSam> b4epoche_: transaction fees maybe dunno
1589 2011-06-27 14:45:48 <MrSam> works fine
1590 2011-06-27 14:46:03 BlueMattBot has joined
1591 2011-06-27 14:46:43 skeledrew has joined
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1593 2011-06-27 14:48:04 <pasky> BlueMatt: I'm surprised people say that encrypted wallet is not significant security improvement - in many scenarios, you cannot execute arbitrary code but you might be able to access arbitrary files and there, encrypted wallet certainly helps a lot; plus you may carry it on a usb key or whatever
1594 2011-06-27 14:48:12 Simon14_ has left ()
1595 2011-06-27 14:48:41 <xtalmath> upq: so you hunt around for papers and universities pointing out that variables with "distinct values" dont exist, but that one could talk about "distinct variables" and "unequal values". Basically you are saying wikipedia is wrong in using the word distinct in the context of collisions. I think your head slipped up your ass ;)
1596 2011-06-27 14:48:43 Lexa has joined
1597 2011-06-27 14:48:49 <BlueMatt> pasky: I agree, but as the main issue attempting to be combated here is stealing of wallets by trojans or full exploits...well it doesnt offer that much
1598 2011-06-27 14:48:54 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1599 2011-06-27 14:49:12 <sipa> people should be made aware that wallet encryption is not a 100% solution
1600 2011-06-27 14:49:15 <BlueMatt> pasky: for desktop users trojans/full running viruses/etc are more common than file access or whatnot
1601 2011-06-27 14:49:23 <BlueMatt> for servers, the inverse is true
1602 2011-06-27 14:49:27 <sipa> it's very good protection for some attack vectors
1603 2011-06-27 14:49:38 Katapult has joined
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1605 2011-06-27 14:50:35 <xtalmath> pasky: can you give me an example of such an attack vector? your wifey copies wallet.dat? if your wifey can copy wallet.dat in most use cases she can start a keylogger as well....
1606 2011-06-27 14:51:09 Txyru` has joined
1607 2011-06-27 14:51:15 <sipa> example attack vector: wifey steals your usb stick with wallet.dat backup on it
1608 2011-06-27 14:51:40 gsathya has left ()
1609 2011-06-27 14:52:14 <xtalmath> to acquire the *idea* to copy wallet.dat means she looked up how bitcoin money can be stolen, so if we use wallet encryption, the forums will be full of people warning that keyloggers are the next step for her
1610 2011-06-27 14:52:33 Txyru has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1611 2011-06-27 14:52:47 <gmaxwell> But she can't just put a keylogger on your usb stick, she'd actually need access to the computer. Better to say ex-wife here. ;)
1612 2011-06-27 14:52:51 <xtalmath> this is walled gardens and obscurity (polynomial increase in meatspace steps)
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1614 2011-06-27 14:53:31 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: doesnt have to be wife or ex-wife, perhaps your dog is going to order a truckfull of chewing bones
1615 2011-06-27 14:53:44 <gmaxwell> This would stop your dog for sure.
1616 2011-06-27 14:53:49 <xtalmath> true dat
1617 2011-06-27 14:54:01 <sipa> other use case: dropbox backup of wallet.dat
1618 2011-06-27 14:54:16 <sipa> with interested dropbox employee who knows about bitcoin
1619 2011-06-27 14:54:54 <xtalmath> sipa: I agree, I did not really consider these... (I assumed wallet.dat theft location and keylogger location were the same, obviously not always the case)
1620 2011-06-27 14:54:54 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1621 2011-06-27 14:55:48 <xtalmath> sipa: this means that different location encrypted backups DO make sense. But usage is still not covered
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1624 2011-06-27 14:56:23 <gmaxwell> All that said, I still think wallet encryption is going to net more coin loss than its absense. Oh well.
1625 2011-06-27 14:56:41 <sipa> it may
1626 2011-06-27 14:56:58 <prof7bit> xtalmath: are you arguing for or against wallet encryption?
1627 2011-06-27 14:57:36 <xtalmath> the guys that are trying to do smart card ECDSA signing, they proposed to do the hashing on the computer side, the dumb fucks just make loose form factor associations (if it looks like a credit card it _must_ be safe)
1628 2011-06-27 14:58:17 johnlockwood_ has joined
1629 2011-06-27 14:58:35 <xtalmath> I am arguing for controlled computation, with controlled input/output. Alternatively linux distro that does NOT let you change security settings, would take ages to agree on the distros settings...
1630 2011-06-27 14:58:41 <gmaxwell> xtalmath: :-/ yea, hardware device isn't so useful unless it can show you the txn its signing.
1631 2011-06-27 14:58:49 falafell has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1632 2011-06-27 14:58:57 <prof7bit> sou you are against wallet encryption?
1633 2011-06-27 14:59:06 <sipa> if it would just show you the size of the outputs, would already be more or less useful
1634 2011-06-27 14:59:09 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: I did some research and smartcards with display and pin pad exist
1635 2011-06-27 14:59:12 <sipa> s/size/amount/
1636 2011-06-27 14:59:20 <xtalmath> have not enquired for pricing though
1637 2011-06-27 14:59:37 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: I think he was just arguing that it didn't matter, but was convinced it mattered some. Eh, xtalmath?
1638 2011-06-27 14:59:38 <xtalmath> display and pin pad on the card itself, flat
1639 2011-06-27 14:59:47 <sipa> wow
1640 2011-06-27 14:59:52 <sipa> that'd be cool
1641 2011-06-27 15:00:01 Forexmasterja_2 has joined
1642 2011-06-27 15:00:02 <pasky> xtalmath: (i) server running bitcoind and some stupid php script allowing path traversal - you can get to any file but not to bitcoind's memory; (ii) you forget your usb stick in starbucks
1643 2011-06-27 15:00:03 <xtalmath> prof7bit, i am not against encryption, but it is not the long term solution
1644 2011-06-27 15:00:04 <upb> xtalmath: lol yes i was trying to troll you :)
1645 2011-06-27 15:00:45 <sipa> wallet encryption is necessary i think, but it's not a complete solution, and should not be regarded as such
1646 2011-06-27 15:01:20 <gmaxwell> Yea, I'm not against it either — even though I think it will cause more lost coins than its absense will.  Simply because coins lost due to passwords being forgotten or trivially cracked don't shake people's confidence in bitcoin as much as coins lost through theft.
1647 2011-06-27 15:01:38 <xtalmath> sipa: if you check bitcoincard.wikispot.org, i made a list of vendors that had oncard displays (traditional banking uses it for OTP of course), and they all have at least one button to power the screen on or off
1648 2011-06-27 15:01:41 <prof7bit> in my humble opinion *every* state of the art method to protect sensible data should be applied. And none of them should be omittet only because it is not 100%. Nothing is 100% here and every little bit helps.
1649 2011-06-27 15:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: evil ex-wife could put keylogger on usb stick that runs via autorun next launch assuming windows ;p
1650 2011-06-27 15:02:34 <prof7bit> and encrypting private keys is not such a far fetched exotic thing
1651 2011-06-27 15:02:35 <jrmithdobbs> just sayin
1652 2011-06-27 15:03:04 <xtalmath> the visa OTP card, had display and all numerals as buttons on smart card, youtube has some examples if you want to see what they look like...
1653 2011-06-27 15:03:09 aristidesfl has joined
1654 2011-06-27 15:03:14 <prof7bit> others do it too. gpg for example.
1655 2011-06-27 15:03:20 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: my concern isn't that it's not 100%. I'm generally a fan of partial solutions. My concern is that theft is a rare event, so it's easy for problems caused by the system (e.g. forgetting password) to out weigh it.
1656 2011-06-27 15:03:22 <ionspin> xtalmath, baahhh, just now saw the discussion and have a bloody meeting starting, see you in an ~hour if you're here
1657 2011-06-27 15:03:28 <MrSam> anyone here that could help me out with a question involving the txfees ?
1658 2011-06-27 15:03:37 <sipa> MrSam: shoot
1659 2011-06-27 15:03:49 <xtalmath> ionspin: normally ill be here!
1660 2011-06-27 15:03:57 <ionspin> xtalmath, :)
1661 2011-06-27 15:03:57 <MrSam> sipa: well if i do the payments using commandline/ json i have no idea at all in advance what the fee is going to be
1662 2011-06-27 15:04:02 ionspin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1663 2011-06-27 15:04:03 Forexmasterja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1664 2011-06-27 15:04:12 <sipa> MrSam: indeed, there is a proposed solution for that
1665 2011-06-27 15:04:25 <MrSam> sipa: also, atm if you move 0.001 btc to an account and send it from there
1666 2011-06-27 15:04:32 <MrSam> that account goes into negative
1667 2011-06-27 15:04:36 <MrSam> so bleh
1668 2011-06-27 15:04:37 <sipa> yes
1669 2011-06-27 15:04:39 josephholsten has joined
1670 2011-06-27 15:04:39 <prof7bit> "forgetting the password" <-- people will accept the loss in this case and not complain anywhere.
1671 2011-06-27 15:04:42 <MrSam> since the fee's are calculated on age :/
1672 2011-06-27 15:04:45 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: if you forget your gpg passphrase (which has happened to several of my friends!) you don't lose access to your bank account forever, however. Even if you use gpg to access your bank.
1673 2011-06-27 15:04:49 jackmcbarn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1674 2011-06-27 15:04:50 <jrmithdobbs> ugh, ya negative accounts are annoying and confusing
1675 2011-06-27 15:04:59 <MrSam> sipa: and i know i can remove it from the client but then it might not be accepted by other nodes
1676 2011-06-27 15:05:02 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: accounts are annoying and confusing
1677 2011-06-27 15:05:06 <upb> there is one attack that keeping the private key inside the smartcard prevents, stealing the private key and using it without the owners knowledge
1678 2011-06-27 15:05:07 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: fair
1679 2011-06-27 15:05:10 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1680 2011-06-27 15:05:14 <MrSam> so how can i be sure and payout my 'clients' if i don't know the fee in advance
1681 2011-06-27 15:05:16 <sipa> or rather, many people don't think they are what they are intended for
1682 2011-06-27 15:05:25 <taub> hey guys i think your jason rpc is broken
1683 2011-06-27 15:05:29 <upb> in order to use the private key they must have continous access to the owners computer
1684 2011-06-27 15:05:37 <MrSam> well i my case i first move the client's money to his own account and then transfer it from there
1685 2011-06-27 15:05:38 <gmaxwell> I think a lot of people think accounts == multiple wallets.
1686 2011-06-27 15:05:41 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i just use them for record keeping so d/c that much
1687 2011-06-27 15:05:51 AgoristRadio has joined
1688 2011-06-27 15:05:55 * sipa wants multiwallet support
1689 2011-06-27 15:05:57 <jrmithdobbs> still confusing when an account can go negative though
1690 2011-06-27 15:06:05 <MrSam> so bleh
1691 2011-06-27 15:06:08 <sipa> which is what many people thing accounts should do
1692 2011-06-27 15:06:14 <sipa> completely separate wallets
1693 2011-06-27 15:06:16 <jrmithdobbs> also wtf, cm7.1 hangs at bootloader on a full wipe what is this crap
1694 2011-06-27 15:06:18 <MrSam> all i want is a howmuchisthisgoingtocostme call
1695 2011-06-27 15:06:26 <taub> accounts are fine the way they are
1696 2011-06-27 15:06:35 <sipa> MrSam: may be there in the next release
1697 2011-06-27 15:06:35 <gmaxwell> I think accounts should go negative, and I think it should support seperate wallets.
1698 2011-06-27 15:06:38 <prof7bit> if i forget my truecrypt passphrase (I have forgotten one already) i lose access to my mp3 collection. but i will not complain on the truecrypt forum or anywhere, i will know that its my own fault and nobody is to blame.
1699 2011-06-27 15:06:41 <taub> check them for money, if there is money move it to the cash account, enter +cash in your personal db book
1700 2011-06-27 15:06:42 <jrmithdobbs> taub: they're next to worthless the way they are
1701 2011-06-27 15:06:44 <MrSam> sipa: so for now, what do you propose ?
1702 2011-06-27 15:06:51 <MrSam> sipa: no payments below 0.01
1703 2011-06-27 15:06:55 <MrSam> and on the upside ?
1704 2011-06-27 15:06:59 <Optimo> ooh cm7.1
1705 2011-06-27 15:07:01 <MrSam> 50btc ?
1706 2011-06-27 15:07:25 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: oh some people will complain, when they lose millions in value this way... but thats "okay". Because no one will care even when they do.
1707 2011-06-27 15:07:55 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: I kind of feel like I'm playing the role of the ford executives who put the pinto gas tank on the outside of the frame to save a buck.
1708 2011-06-27 15:08:11 <sipa> at least we should make sure every possibility is used to warn users that losing their password is final, irreversible, and not fixable even by the developers
1709 2011-06-27 15:08:28 <jrmithdobbs> Optimo: well, 7.1-rc1
1710 2011-06-27 15:08:43 <jrmithdobbs> Optimo: but ya, on evo rev3 hardware it locks at the damned bootloader splash dunno about other platforms
1711 2011-06-27 15:08:49 <jrmithdobbs> very annoying
1712 2011-06-27 15:08:54 <Optimo> I can put this on my worthless tablet maybe
1713 2011-06-27 15:08:57 <taub> security is for a bitcoin bank to handle
1714 2011-06-27 15:09:03 <taub> not for the program itsel
1715 2011-06-27 15:09:10 <taub> imo
1716 2011-06-27 15:09:12 <Optimo> wallet-provider
1717 2011-06-27 15:09:16 <taub> yea
1718 2011-06-27 15:09:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: at a minimum, but I'm not under the impression that it matters. I've tried to think of some way of doing recovery. E.g. a list of pgp words it tells you to write down and put in a safe.
1719 2011-06-27 15:09:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: btw, wallet encryption will use evp/sha512/25000rounds by the default, good?
1720 2011-06-27 15:09:33 <Optimo> wallet protocol will evolve
1721 2011-06-27 15:09:34 <jrmithdobbs> i think mtgox nicely proved that bitcoin banks aren't something that can be considered a real solution to *anything* with the current state of the bitcoin "service industry"
1722 2011-06-27 15:09:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yes, that sounds good to me.
1723 2011-06-27 15:09:40 copumpkin has joined
1724 2011-06-27 15:09:55 <taub> jrmithdobbs, mtgox demonstrated nothing
1725 2011-06-27 15:09:58 <taub> it was just very poorly done
1726 2011-06-27 15:09:59 <upb> it did
1727 2011-06-27 15:10:03 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r112 /wiki/GettingStarted.wiki: Update for the 0.2 API changes.
1728 2011-06-27 15:10:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: i vote for a "Generate wallet unlock code" function in the gui
1729 2011-06-27 15:10:11 <jrmithdobbs> taub: it demonstrated that bitcoin web services are run by amateurs
1730 2011-06-27 15:10:13 <upb> they 'followed every industry standard to make it secure' but still got compromised
1731 2011-06-27 15:10:16 <taub> if an amature trys to code a bank website, yeah shit s gonan get stolen
1732 2011-06-27 15:10:17 <jrmithdobbs> taub: which is enough to make my statement valid
1733 2011-06-27 15:10:34 DontMindMe has joined
1734 2011-06-27 15:10:35 <Optimo> even security-concerned geeks can fall for trust
1735 2011-06-27 15:10:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: that generated a string with at least 128 bits of entropy
1736 2011-06-27 15:10:45 <jrmithdobbs> taub: show me a bitcoin-related site or service *not* run by amateurs
1737 2011-06-27 15:10:55 <taub> sure, in this stage
1738 2011-06-27 15:11:03 <jrmithdobbs> taub: and that's all i was saying
1739 2011-06-27 15:11:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: either using some dictionary-based conversion, or base58, or hex, or ...
1740 2011-06-27 15:11:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: 128 bits of entropy would be only 16 words to write down from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list
1741 2011-06-27 15:11:25 jackmcbarn has joined
1742 2011-06-27 15:11:28 <jrmithdobbs> taub: is that right now "bitcoin banks" aren't an answer to anything because they're run by incompetent amateurs
1743 2011-06-27 15:11:30 <sipa> oh well, why not 256 bits in that case
1744 2011-06-27 15:11:34 <prof7bit> even bank websites are programmed and run by amateurs nowadays.
1745 2011-06-27 15:12:19 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1746 2011-06-27 15:12:57 <taub> well i still think its not really neseccary to integrate security measures into the program itself
1747 2011-06-27 15:13:13 scott`_ has joined
1748 2011-06-27 15:13:22 <prof7bit> i would not overcomplicate the wallet encryption mechanism now, release it as it is (better than nothing) and then there is enough time to think about an upgrade.
1749 2011-06-27 15:13:25 <taub> but maybe there are cool solutions so uh not a real reason to oppose it either
1750 2011-06-27 15:13:44 <prof7bit> everything now would be better than nothing.
1751 2011-06-27 15:14:41 <pasky> gmaxwell: Actually, people already surely lost in sum millions this way. In Czechoslovakia in previous century, it was very common to have a passbook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passbook, rather unusual today but still in rare use) that was password-protected, so you could withdraw money only if you told the teller the right password. If you forgot the password, you would not get the money, period. So having money password-bound is not ...
1752 2011-06-27 15:14:46 <pasky> ... something novel.
1753 2011-06-27 15:14:50 <prof7bit> with every minute that passes an unencrypted wallet will get stolen.
1754 2011-06-27 15:15:07 koleg has joined
1755 2011-06-27 15:15:12 <freakazoid> same with numbered Swiss bank accounts
1756 2011-06-27 15:15:14 <pasky> gmaxwell: It did happen occassionally that people forgot the password, but usually only for passwords with relatively small sums of money.
1757 2011-06-27 15:15:22 <freakazoid> lose the account number or password, lose the account
1758 2011-06-27 15:15:22 <pasky> *passbooks
1759 2011-06-27 15:15:46 <quellhorst> hard drive crash = lost money
1760 2011-06-27 15:15:55 Soak has joined
1761 2011-06-27 15:16:06 <freakazoid> we need cloud storage using secret sharing
1762 2011-06-27 15:16:08 <prof7bit> <quellhorst> hard drive crash = lost money  <-- backup.
1763 2011-06-27 15:16:10 <upb> LOL http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/47a1/#by=sp
1764 2011-06-27 15:16:13 AlonzoTG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1765 2011-06-27 15:16:14 <freakazoid> or at least encryption
1766 2011-06-27 15:16:28 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: actually the old wallet encryption code that's been tested at all (not the stuff BlueMatt started testing yesterday) *is* worse than nothing
1767 2011-06-27 15:16:29 <gmaxwell> for a swiss bank account they at least give you written records with the credentials.
1768 2011-06-27 15:16:39 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: for reasons that were went over in the pull request and thread.
1769 2011-06-27 15:16:43 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: how so?
1770 2011-06-27 15:16:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and just for you there is a variable for nDerivationMethod (with only EVP_sha512() implemented) and nDeriveIterations, which if you feel like editing your wallet would mean you can set any iterations you want
1771 2011-06-27 15:16:55 <BlueMatt> ;)
1772 2011-06-27 15:17:02 <jrmithdobbs> static salt = rainbow table funtimes
1773 2011-06-27 15:17:15 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: not at all, there was a security weakness being that it had a static salt, but its still 1000x better than no crypto
1774 2011-06-27 15:17:18 <freakazoid> you should be using scrypt's key derivation function
1775 2011-06-27 15:17:19 <jrmithdobbs> especially with an audience with assloads of gpus to throw at it
1776 2011-06-27 15:17:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not considering the audience imho.
1777 2011-06-27 15:17:47 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: so, plaintext or have-to-do-work-to-decrypt...?
1778 2011-06-27 15:17:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I saw. :) once this is mature I'll offer a patch to set the iteration time automatically based on timing it when you set the password. :)
1779 2011-06-27 15:18:03 <freakazoid> there's a point at which making someone feel secure while only making them slightly more secure is worse than nothing
1780 2011-06-27 15:18:08 <gmaxwell> Well whateve, it's better now.
1781 2011-06-27 15:18:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well I just added nDerivationMethod 10 secs ago and its not pushed yet but...
1782 2011-06-27 15:18:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: and if you have a strong password, even with a static salt you arent gonna be brute forced
1783 2011-06-27 15:18:37 <pasky> BlueMatt: "false sense of security" is big problem in crypto; it is better to have no encryption where people are aware there is no encryption, rather than "1000x better" where people expect "1000000000x better"
1784 2011-06-27 15:18:42 <BlueMatt> also, if they just have one wallet, its just as easy to brute force now as it was in the past
1785 2011-06-27 15:18:45 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: given the "community" it's for, yes, genning those rainbow tables for a fairly large subset of passwords would take someone with ~5-20Ghash days not months
1786 2011-06-27 15:18:46 <freakazoid> actually you could just straight scrypt, since you're actually encrypting
1787 2011-06-27 15:19:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Nah, you'd already said you were going to do it, a weekish ago.
1788 2011-06-27 15:19:05 johnlockwood_ has left ()
1789 2011-06-27 15:19:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, I thought you meant you saw by reading the pull :)
1790 2011-06-27 15:19:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes but wallet encryption is to protect the uknowing end users. unknowing end users have HORRIBLE passwords even for finacials related applications. Proof: mtgox.
1791 2011-06-27 15:19:31 <pasky> BlueMatt: an extreme example is the debian ssh fiasco, just using telnet is better than using ssh, believing you are protected from mitm when in fact, you aren't (I realize that the metaphore is not perfect since you can still choose ultra-strong password here)
1792 2011-06-27 15:19:49 <prof7bit> <pasky> BlueMatt: "false sense of security" is big problem in crypto  <-- this does not apply here to this problem. i have heard this sentence a 1000 times in 100 different contexts and it simply does not apply here
1793 2011-06-27 15:19:51 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: if you have a poor password, it doesnt matter whether you have a static salt or not, you are fucked if they try to brute force it
1794 2011-06-27 15:20:03 <sipa> i think the most important problem now is that the client does not make the wallet visible as an existing entity on their computer system
1795 2011-06-27 15:20:09 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: in any case, it has a way of signaling the derriv function, so it could be changed to scrypt later.
1796 2011-06-27 15:20:09 <pasky> prof7bit: you need to explain
1797 2011-06-27 15:20:14 <sipa> people wonder "how does my computer know which coins are mine"
1798 2011-06-27 15:20:15 <BlueMatt> pasky: lol, not even close
1799 2011-06-27 15:20:17 <sipa> that is a problem
1800 2011-06-27 15:20:22 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: there are ways to make it exponentially harder to do so, but i digress. I wasn't attacking you man.
1801 2011-06-27 15:20:50 <prof7bit> you are effectively arguing that no encryption is better than encryption. and this is just not true.
1802 2011-06-27 15:20:58 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: it can be.
1803 2011-06-27 15:21:16 <prof7bit> not here where *no* other option exists
1804 2011-06-27 15:21:18 <pasky> prof7bit: you cannot reduce my statement like that at all
1805 2011-06-27 15:21:24 pyros1 has joined
1806 2011-06-27 15:21:31 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: cool
1807 2011-06-27 15:21:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: just saying that for the *people wallet encryption is meant to help protect* the tested wallet crypto code is next to worthless since rainbow tables for that static salt for the majority of <8char passwords could be generated in days, not months, by this "community."
1808 2011-06-27 15:21:32 <pasky> prof7bit: I'm talking about connection of encryption level and user expectation
1809 2011-06-27 15:21:34 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: err! right now you can put it on an ecrypted file system.
1810 2011-06-27 15:21:50 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: and use encryption on your backups
1811 2011-06-27 15:22:02 <prof7bit> the encrypted file system does not help when it gets stolen while it is mounted.
1812 2011-06-27 15:22:08 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: what would your rainbow tables contain?
1813 2011-06-27 15:22:16 <pasky> prof7bit: if the user has different expectation of the security than what the protection really is, that's a big problem, that's all I'm saying
1814 2011-06-27 15:22:19 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: now that is just not true, but I do see the point and it has been changed, it would take longer than months to generate all 8char passwords even with a thash of hashing power
1815 2011-06-27 15:22:22 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the passphrase hash that's stored
1816 2011-06-27 15:22:33 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: there was never a passphrase hash afaik
1817 2011-06-27 15:22:42 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I've been trying to figure out the best way to use scrypt's key derivation function to generate an ECC key without having to have any persistent data. Seems like the user has to remember the difficulty if you don't want it hardcoded
1818 2011-06-27 15:22:48 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: if they can steal while mounted they can install a keyboard logger, so encryption isn't much help in that case.
1819 2011-06-27 15:22:51 <pasky> jrmithdobbs: I like how you quoted the community
1820 2011-06-27 15:22:59 <jrmithdobbs> pasky: i hate that term
1821 2011-06-27 15:22:59 <prof7bit> no they cant
1822 2011-06-27 15:23:14 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: at all points did someone wishing to test a password have to derive pubkey from priv key, even the old one, so just testing a rainbow table isnt easy
1823 2011-06-27 15:23:21 AnatolV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1824 2011-06-27 15:23:30 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: you could quantize it so that it isn't many options... then try all of them from easiest to hardest... cache the value.
1825 2011-06-27 15:23:31 <sipa> freakazoid: EC private key = almost any 256-bit number
1826 2011-06-27 15:23:49 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: but I think password based keys are a bad idea.
1827 2011-06-27 15:24:14 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: well, it'd be for a single purpose - retrieving your real key from a DHT
1828 2011-06-27 15:24:32 <prof7bit> they could use some stupid firefox cross-site-file-upload-autoclick-whatever exploit and steal the wallet file from the always same well known location for example. just an example.
1829 2011-06-27 15:24:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ok that's a fair point
1830 2011-06-27 15:24:57 <prof7bit> this is orders of magnitude easier than installing a key logger
1831 2011-06-27 15:25:37 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I'd like people to be able to log in with their identity even from a computer they haven't used before, which means either carrying around a file or using a password-derived key for SOME purpose
1832 2011-06-27 15:25:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: as a side note, Id like to have nDerivationMethod numbers allocated to scrypt in the comments, even though I dont think it should be implemented in the client (so that there is an agreeable standard), how many would be needed, ie scrypt x=5 and y=20 and how many do you recommend get put there?
1833 2011-06-27 15:26:01 bmwiedemann has joined
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1835 2011-06-27 15:26:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: maybe you should have a vchDeriveData instead of nIterationCoun
1836 2011-06-27 15:26:43 Blitzboom has joined
1837 2011-06-27 15:26:44 <sipa> which stores any data in an encoding defined by the method itself
1838 2011-06-27 15:26:46 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: oh your new code is using scrypt? nice.
1839 2011-06-27 15:26:49 repl has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1840 2011-06-27 15:26:53 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, read closer
1841 2011-06-27 15:27:03 <jrmithdobbs> oh i see what you're asking
1842 2011-06-27 15:27:50 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: unfortunately with scrypt work from lower difficulties doesn't help at higher difficulty levels, unlike with pbkdf2
1843 2011-06-27 15:28:17 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: a file I'm fine with. password-derived just has a problem of too little entropy, people will collide on accident. very bad for user confidence.
1844 2011-06-27 15:28:17 repl has joined
1845 2011-06-27 15:28:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: hm...I disagree, even though Ill gladly put a comment in the code to support scrypt, I dont think it would be advantageous to start doing crazy data structures to store a number for the standard code and maybe 2 or 3 numbers for scrypt
1846 2011-06-27 15:28:35 fnord0 has joined
1847 2011-06-27 15:28:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: IIRC scrypt needs 2 such numbers so, one in nDeriveIterations and one chosen based on nDerivationMethod should work fine imho
1848 2011-06-27 15:28:50 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: yeah, I was planning to use some unique value ("username") as well
1849 2011-06-27 15:29:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm not sure, there are already very nice serialization primities in bitcoin, i see no harm in adding one layer of 'parsing' :)
1850 2011-06-27 15:29:43 <freakazoid> since people can't be trusted to come up with truly unique passphrases no matter what you tel them
1851 2011-06-27 15:29:54 <sipa> if it means free extensibility of parameters in the future
1852 2011-06-27 15:30:26 <sipa> anyway, it's a very minor thing
1853 2011-06-27 15:30:43 <freakazoid> BlueMatt: just store a JSON blob or MessagePack blob
1854 2011-06-27 15:30:48 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: perhaps: email address.
1855 2011-06-27 15:31:00 <BlueMatt> freakazoid: or serialized data structure, but thats beside the point
1856 2011-06-27 15:31:04 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: yeah, that was the plan, though secretly it would be anything that was unique to the user
1857 2011-06-27 15:31:11 AlonzoTG has joined
1858 2011-06-27 15:31:20 <freakazoid> "secretly" in that they'd have to click on the question mark to find that out
1859 2011-06-27 15:31:37 <jrmithdobbs> so on a related subject
1860 2011-06-27 15:31:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: for the scrypt parameters I'd rather split the space available to nDeriveIterations. E.g. the least significant few bits sets the memory hardness, the rest for the iteration count.
1861 2011-06-27 15:31:46 <freakazoid> it'd say something like Username (must be unique, we suggest using your email address):
1862 2011-06-27 15:32:03 <jrmithdobbs> someone remind me why deriving the salt of a password hashing function based on input is bad
1863 2011-06-27 15:32:03 PwnusMaximus has joined
1864 2011-06-27 15:32:06 <freakazoid> though i should also say "we don't check for collisions"
1865 2011-06-27 15:32:15 dr_win has joined
1866 2011-06-27 15:32:17 <sipa> freakazoid: and you'd use that username as a salt, or as part of the (secret) password?
1867 2011-06-27 15:32:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: also, there is a point where you are supporting some insane number of features that many people wont use...additionally in many programs like this the options are stored similar to this where there is a number for SHA256, SHA512, scrypt_... etc and then a derive iteration count
1868 2011-06-27 15:32:29 <freakazoid> sipa: well this is for my own system which doesn't have a way to store salt
1869 2011-06-27 15:32:30 <BlueMatt> though I cant remember what program I saw that in...
1870 2011-06-27 15:32:35 <b4epoche_> how about letting the network decide if a password is good ;-)…  let the miners beat on it for a day and if they don't get a hit, then approve it
1871 2011-06-27 15:32:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: go ahead with just iteration count :)
1872 2011-06-27 15:32:56 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: because if its the same for that input its not salt, I could still make a lookup table for 400k passwords with 400k operations and use it against everyone.
1873 2011-06-27 15:33:02 <freakazoid> sipa: normally I'd use a lot of random bits for salt
1874 2011-06-27 15:33:08 <freakazoid> and scrypt
1875 2011-06-27 15:33:16 <bmwiedemann> Hi. I think I have found a bug in bitcoind-0.3.20 (using the one from debian-backports). I did set-account on an address and did a "sendfrom" from the new account, but it used a different address from the old account instead and now the balances do not match the ones shown on blockexplorer.com
1876 2011-06-27 15:33:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and if it's not purely derived from the input?
1877 2011-06-27 15:33:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: eg, requires knowledges of a value the user does not control being used as an ecdsa key to create a signature
1878 2011-06-27 15:33:50 Ramen has joined
1879 2011-06-27 15:34:00 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
1880 2011-06-27 15:34:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133543 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1528 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1482448.31032460
1881 2011-06-27 15:34:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and is not published
1882 2011-06-27 15:34:15 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well, thats really just "moar password" which is fine too.
1883 2011-06-27 15:34:16 <sipa> bmwiedemann: sendfrom only states which account to deduct, it has absolutely nothing to do with which coins are selected
1884 2011-06-27 15:34:35 <freakazoid> shower time
1885 2011-06-27 15:34:43 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: would it help you if we used the word nonce instead of salt? :)
1886 2011-06-27 15:34:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: right, i'm trying to figure out if you know what is bad for obvious reasons ;p
1887 2011-06-27 15:34:46 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1888 2011-06-27 15:34:46 <bmwiedemann> sipa: but it used coins from a different account
1889 2011-06-27 15:34:49 <sipa> bmwiedemann: all received coins go into one big pool, and all transactions just choose coins from there
1890 2011-06-27 15:34:57 <sipa> bmwiedemann: coins are not "from" an account
1891 2011-06-27 15:35:02 num1-mac is now known as num1
1892 2011-06-27 15:35:07 <sipa> bmwiedemann: they are just assigned to one upon receipt
1893 2011-06-27 15:35:32 <gmaxwell> bmwiedemann: think of a bucket of coins with a ledger next to it.
1894 2011-06-27 15:35:33 <sipa> you want separate wallets, not separate accounts
1895 2011-06-27 15:35:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: trying to get someone besides you to bite ;p
1896 2011-06-27 15:35:55 <sipa> you keep track of how many coins each account owns, but not which coins that are
1897 2011-06-27 15:36:43 <bmwiedemann> sipa: I see. and can one bitcoind manage multiple wallets?
1898 2011-06-27 15:36:49 <sipa> no
1899 2011-06-27 15:36:57 <sipa> unfortunately not yet
1900 2011-06-27 15:37:05 <sipa> but do you really need that?
1901 2011-06-27 15:37:06 <MrSam> you can start multiple -daemons so ..
1902 2011-06-27 15:37:19 <sipa> indeed, you can run multiple instances, but it can be a bit tricky
1903 2011-06-27 15:37:35 <prof7bit> yes this is needed
1904 2011-06-27 15:37:46 <prof7bit> file -> export money
1905 2011-06-27 15:37:57 <sipa> that's something else still
1906 2011-06-27 15:38:01 <bmwiedemann> sipa: I thought of using money in certain accounts only for certain types of spending... e.g. use donations only to pay for a server
1907 2011-06-27 15:38:02 <sipa> but also very useful
1908 2011-06-27 15:38:23 <prof7bit> creates wallet. and file -> import money opens a wallet and imports coins from it.
1909 2011-06-27 15:38:32 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1910 2011-06-27 15:38:34 <sipa> bmwiedemann: unless you're concerned about anonimity?
1911 2011-06-27 15:38:41 <sipa> -unless
1912 2011-06-27 15:39:00 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: so basically the stored secret used as an ecdsa key acts as an indirect nonce anyways if used to create the "salt" via signing of partial user input, eh?
1913 2011-06-27 15:39:14 <knotwork> does windows XP have any simple, native (already installed by default) utility like maybe sftp that could be used to snatch a wallet off it from rdesktop before defenstrating the machine and installing linux?
1914 2011-06-27 15:39:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: does the act of making it derived in itself hurt things any? it does, for instance, decrease "salt" entropy a bit
1915 2011-06-27 15:39:59 <taub> someone here using perl for the bitcoin API?
1916 2011-06-27 15:40:03 <bmwiedemann> sipa: as I understand it, bitcoin is not anonymous at all with all transactions public. rather pseudonymous. and I do care a bit about anonymity :)
1917 2011-06-27 15:40:04 <taub> need some help with the move mothod
1918 2011-06-27 15:40:09 <knotwork> it would maybe be handy actually for bitcoin to have a way to display private keyts so one could copy-paste wallet's essential info from the screen)
1919 2011-06-27 15:40:16 <MrSam> taub: only php and java here :)
1920 2011-06-27 15:40:18 <taub> it wont take my variables
1921 2011-06-27 15:40:19 <prof7bit> you could create a temporary wallet with 5 coins on it, take it with you, visit a friend, buy things, let him open your wallet and import 3.50 from it.
1922 2011-06-27 15:40:24 <sipa> bmwiedemann: ok, in that case separate wallets may be useful to you
1923 2011-06-27 15:40:27 <MrSam> taub: show your string ?
1924 2011-06-27 15:40:29 Xunie has quit (Quit: Can God microwave a taco so hot that not even *HE* can eat it without burns?)
1925 2011-06-27 15:40:34 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the salts entropy for salt purposes is just the degree in which it is used only once across all users.
1926 2011-06-27 15:40:34 <prof7bit> without restarting the client
1927 2011-06-27 15:40:52 <taub> $money = '1e-05'; my $obj = {method=>'move',params=>[$_,"account2",$money]};
1928 2011-06-27 15:40:57 <taub> returns 500 if you call it
1929 2011-06-27 15:41:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: so so long as it's mostly-garaunteed to be unique it's good enough
1930 2011-06-27 15:41:09 <jrmithdobbs> unique per-user
1931 2011-06-27 15:41:19 <jrmithdobbs> user/usage i guess
1932 2011-06-27 15:41:35 <knotwork> hmm not sure rdesktop will work even, I suspect visiting the wondows XP mining rig using rdesktop is crashing the thing or something
1933 2011-06-27 15:41:50 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: I'd like your portable wallet much better if it was password + 16 pgpwords that the user could have handwritten on a note.
1934 2011-06-27 15:42:05 <jrmithdobbs> knotwork: oh yes that will, windows does fun stuff with video/audio drivers when you takeover a session via rdp
1935 2011-06-27 15:42:09 btceezey has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1936 2011-06-27 15:42:15 <MrSam> vnc !
1937 2011-06-27 15:42:37 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: per usage is better for most cases... lest someone gather many copies of your password over time and crack them as a group.
1938 2011-06-27 15:43:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: i wonder whether something pgpwords-like could be done that generates actual (gramatically) correct sentences
1939 2011-06-27 15:43:42 <sipa> by using a minimal context-free grammar for english :)
1940 2011-06-27 15:43:54 <knotwork> I managed to shut down the diablo miner scheduled-at-boot task so looks like I have rdesktop now
1941 2011-06-27 15:44:15 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r113 /wiki/SecurityModel.wiki: Add a page discussing the BitCoinJ security model.
1942 2011-06-27 15:44:33 <knotwork> but given rdesktop, what can I use via that to snatch wallet onto a linux box so I can get rid of windows and install linux
1943 2011-06-27 15:44:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: right i meant that as "per user" in cases where it's a set of users on a (single) machine or "per usage" when it's something other than users
1944 2011-06-27 15:45:06 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i was more clarifying to keep from confusing myself and the clarification only made sense to me, lol
1945 2011-06-27 15:45:09 <jrmithdobbs> whoops
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1947 2011-06-27 15:47:39 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa|BBL
1948 2011-06-27 15:48:03 <prof7bit> <knotwork> but given rdesktop, what can I use via that to snatch wallet onto a linux  <-- make a new wallet at home and transfer the money. otherwise you will have to wipe the entire disk befoe you sell it at ebay
1949 2011-06-27 15:48:24 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1952 2011-06-27 15:49:01 <taub> why doesnt the bitcoin json-rpc take money values like "1e-05" ?
1953 2011-06-27 15:49:03 <knotwork> I keep trying to run bitcoin on the windows box and it never appears does it maybe just take forever on windows to bring up its gui ?
1954 2011-06-27 15:49:10 <taub> but it works if called over command line
1955 2011-06-27 15:49:19 <prof7bit> it takes forever
1956 2011-06-27 15:49:37 <sipa> taub: because you should not use scientific notation for currency amounts :)
1957 2011-06-27 15:49:39 Cherothald has joined
1958 2011-06-27 15:49:45 Cherothald is now known as Fabianius
1959 2011-06-27 15:49:50 <knotwork> mouse cursor goes hourglass only for a while then reverts to normal
1960 2011-06-27 15:49:56 <taub> ok well but thats what the api is giving to me
1961 2011-06-27 15:50:06 <taub> or is it
1962 2011-06-27 15:50:07 <taub> hm
1963 2011-06-27 15:50:15 <taub> might just be perl doing the switcherooony
1964 2011-06-27 15:50:18 Fabianius has quit (Client Quit)
1965 2011-06-27 15:50:23 <taub> nm think i got it
1966 2011-06-27 15:50:33 Cherothald has joined
1967 2011-06-27 15:50:33 <prof7bit> knotwork: look into the task manager. there is activity. takes 3 minutes or so.
1968 2011-06-27 15:51:21 <knotwork> probably a port conflict, likely it was already running or something
1969 2011-06-27 15:51:33 <prof7bit> look into the log file
1970 2011-06-27 15:51:52 <knotwork> couldnt find task manager on icons / menus finally figured out three finger salute works over rdesktop
1971 2011-06-27 15:52:10 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1972 2011-06-27 15:53:28 <knotwork> is bitcoin going to want to update its whole blockchain before bringing up its GUI ?
1973 2011-06-27 15:53:40 <prof7bit> its only loading the index
1974 2011-06-27 15:54:36 <knotwork> if I am lucky simplecoin isnt one of the pools that sends your money if you vanish for a week so the wallet on windows box will be empty andf I can wipe windows without worrying about wallet
1975 2011-06-27 15:55:00 <prof7bit> btw. what is the advantage of a sophisticated db layer if the entire thing must be loaded into RAM anyways?
1976 2011-06-27 15:55:21 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: you had a problem with a non-importable secret key?
1977 2011-06-27 15:56:09 Nexus7 has joined
1978 2011-06-27 15:56:11 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya but on my end i think i got it sorted out
1979 2011-06-27 15:56:22 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: can't play with that stuff right now unless i want to give my employer the copyright ;p
1980 2011-06-27 15:56:49 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1981 2011-06-27 15:57:01 marioxcc has joined
1982 2011-06-27 15:57:27 Gonzago has quit ()
1983 2011-06-27 15:57:41 <marioxcc> hey
1984 2011-06-27 15:57:47 <taub> sipa, well why not use scientific notation
1985 2011-06-27 15:57:54 <taub> as long as its accurate
1986 2011-06-27 15:58:04 <taub> but hey now, i mean the command line accepts sci notation
1987 2011-06-27 15:58:07 <taub> just not the json api
1988 2011-06-27 15:58:20 <marioxcc> sipa: how did you got the *sipa* address?
1989 2011-06-27 15:58:32 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1990 2011-06-27 15:58:33 <marioxcc> brute forced it?
1991 2011-06-27 15:58:42 <sipa> yes, vanity patch
1992 2011-06-27 15:58:47 <prof7bit> <knotwork> the wallet on windows box will be empty andf I can wipe windows without worrying about wallet <-- make a backup of the empty wallet, just in case someone sends you money to he old address
1993 2011-06-27 15:59:15 <knotwork> turns out simplecoin.us doesnt even have a payment address shown for me
1994 2011-06-27 15:59:34 <knotwork> and they would have been only people to have any address from that wallet
1995 2011-06-27 15:59:42 <marioxcc> sipa: ok :)
1996 2011-06-27 16:00:19 * marioxcc wonders how much computing energy it cost to get a *marioxcc address
1997 2011-06-27 16:01:16 <sipa> marioxcc: allow uppercase or digits in it?
1998 2011-06-27 16:01:37 <marioxcc> sipa: well, not sure
1999 2011-06-27 16:01:40 <knotwork> I wonder if they would have not only paid out whatever was owed after a week but also then deleted the payout address from their records
2000 2011-06-27 16:01:52 <marioxcc> just 'marioxcc' somewhere in the string, uppercase is ok
2001 2011-06-27 16:01:55 ionspin has joined
2002 2011-06-27 16:02:14 Titeuf_87 has joined
2003 2011-06-27 16:02:15 <knotwork> maybe I just never dod tell then an address from windows box at all figuring I'd wait until I got to a real machine to give them an address from
2004 2011-06-27 16:02:20 <jrmithdobbs> marioxcc: >4-5 chars gets very very very expensive to bruteforce
2005 2011-06-27 16:02:32 <marioxcc> I suppose
2006 2011-06-27 16:02:39 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2007 2011-06-27 16:02:55 <sipa> just like that, literally "marioxcc", it'd take around 750 years on my system :)
2008 2011-06-27 16:02:58 sytse has joined
2009 2011-06-27 16:03:17 <marioxcc> sipa: do you consider anywhere in the string and uppercase letters?
2010 2011-06-27 16:03:31 <sipa> anywhere in the string: yes, uppercase: no
2011 2011-06-27 16:04:07 conjre has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2012 2011-06-27 16:04:33 davro has joined
2013 2011-06-27 16:05:25 <prof7bit> open a pool of a few hundred frustrated miners, give them new software and sell vanity addresses.
2014 2011-06-27 16:05:46 <marioxcc> prof7bit: that would be the root of all possible scams :/
2015 2011-06-27 16:06:04 justmoon has joined
2016 2011-06-27 16:06:11 <marioxcc> what if they don't discard your private key?
2017 2011-06-27 16:06:17 Niiko has joined
2018 2011-06-27 16:06:31 <Ramen> ...
2019 2011-06-27 16:06:37 <Ramen> you never give out private keys
2020 2011-06-27 16:06:41 <Ramen> thats why it's private
2021 2011-06-27 16:07:08 <prof7bit> <marioxcc> what if they don't discard your private key?  <-- you don't tell this your customers of course
2022 2011-06-27 16:07:40 <marioxcc> Ramen: they have to, if they sell the address
2023 2011-06-27 16:07:50 <marioxcc> <prof7bit> open a pool of a few hundred frustrated miners, give them new software and sell vanity addresses.
2024 2011-06-27 16:07:55 <marioxcc> ^-- otherwise a good idea
2025 2011-06-27 16:07:59 <marioxcc> but too insecure
2026 2011-06-27 16:08:19 Niiko has left ()
2027 2011-06-27 16:08:46 <sipa> it's actually possible to do this without the server knowing the private key
2028 2011-06-27 16:08:57 Zarutian has joined
2029 2011-06-27 16:09:13 <prof7bit> THEY dont sell addresses, they sell their computing power to you and YOU sell the addresses to innocent users
2030 2011-06-27 16:09:28 <marioxcc> sipa: could you please elaborate
2031 2011-06-27 16:09:49 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2032 2011-06-27 16:10:04 <sipa> i believe gmaxwell came up with it, in his deterministic wallets thing
2033 2011-06-27 16:10:06 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: you can gen public keys based on a previous public key whose private key will be derivable from the original private key but not by the person genning the pubkeys
2034 2011-06-27 16:10:14 <sipa> if you have two ec private keys a and b
2035 2011-06-27 16:10:23 <sipa> with corresponding public keys p(a) and p(b)
2036 2011-06-27 16:10:38 <sipa> then p(a*b) = a*p(b)
2037 2011-06-27 16:10:54 <sipa> so the server generates private keys a, and you tell them your public key b
2038 2011-06-27 16:11:08 <marioxcc> interesting
2039 2011-06-27 16:11:28 <marioxcc> gmaxwell makes me think of J.K. Maxwell, hehe
2040 2011-06-27 16:11:31 <marioxcc> sorry
2041 2011-06-27 16:11:34 <marioxcc> J.C.
2042 2011-06-27 16:11:35 <sipa> they use a*p(b) to check the address, and if they find one, they tell you the private part a, which you multiply with b
2043 2011-06-27 16:11:50 B0g4r7 has joined
2044 2011-06-27 16:12:12 <marioxcc> yes, I understand
2045 2011-06-27 16:12:27 <marioxcc> are there papers on this?
2046 2011-06-27 16:12:58 <marioxcc> how do you call it gmaxwell?
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2061 2011-06-27 16:20:01 <xtalmath> I  have an idea for the speculators: a new blockchain fork, tremendous deflation caused by the blockchain sending a random (based on hash of the whole blockchain) last destination of a transaction to dev/null.
2062 2011-06-27 16:20:29 <xtalmath> the speculators try to stay in the came before lightning strikes them
2063 2011-06-27 16:20:40 <BlueMatt> lol
2064 2011-06-27 16:20:48 <xtalmath> *in the game*
2065 2011-06-27 16:21:17 <xtalmath> their stupidity will not allow them to ignore the scientiffically high deflation rate
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2067 2011-06-27 16:22:02 <Guest5622> anyone know if the mtgox websocket feed is going to be coming back?
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2075 2011-06-27 16:24:05 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0 < I describe it here as 'type 2'
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2080 2011-06-27 16:26:00 <ersi> topace: Go to #mtgox instead
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2082 2011-06-27 16:27:39 Kothar is now known as kon
2083 2011-06-27 16:28:30 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: thanks you
2084 2011-06-27 16:30:25 kerx has joined
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2087 2011-06-27 16:33:14 darbsllim has joined
2088 2011-06-27 16:33:36 <darbsllim> Is anybody able to place orders at MTGOX using the API right now? I'm not able to, and I'm wondering if it's just me or if nobody can.
2089 2011-06-27 16:33:54 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: it's a good idea
2090 2011-06-27 16:33:57 <marioxcc> will you implement it?
2091 2011-06-27 16:34:33 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: I've got an external implementation, at least. I'm not quite sure how it fits into bitcoin overall.
2092 2011-06-27 16:34:38 slush has joined
2093 2011-06-27 16:34:45 <darbsllim> gmaxwell what is it? I missed it
2094 2011-06-27 16:34:46 askjdas has joined
2095 2011-06-27 16:34:52 <darbsllim> MagicalTux are you around?
2096 2011-06-27 16:34:52 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: ok
2097 2011-06-27 16:34:59 ssalxs has joined
2098 2011-06-27 16:35:02 <marioxcc> darbsllim: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
2099 2011-06-27 16:35:16 <darbsllim> marioxcc thanks dude
2100 2011-06-27 16:36:20 <marioxcc> np
2101 2011-06-27 16:36:33 <darbsllim> any devs here trying to use the mtgox api?
2102 2011-06-27 16:36:36 <marioxcc> hmm, I should set emacs to expand np
2103 2011-06-27 16:37:33 larsivi has joined
2104 2011-06-27 16:37:57 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: I suggested the type 1 method some time ago, they were reluctant because of the loss of the unstealing feature
2105 2011-06-27 16:38:05 <marioxcc> now seems like things have changed
2106 2011-06-27 16:38:15 <marioxcc> and the type 2 idea is a good option too, congrats!
2107 2011-06-27 16:38:21 <pasky> darbsllim: you are probably on the wrong channel? try #mtgox
2108 2011-06-27 16:38:23 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: BlueMatt still doesn't like the loss of unstealing.
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2110 2011-06-27 16:39:06 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: but I think type-2 at least has a second useful advantage (that ability to split the public and private parts for ecommerce)
2111 2011-06-27 16:39:07 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: well, you know, this is free software, you don't have to ask anyone to implement it
2112 2011-06-27 16:39:17 <marioxcc> yeah
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2115 2011-06-27 16:40:06 <gmaxwell> Oh as I said, I have an external implementation (of type-2). But I'm not quite sure how to fit it into bitcoin— because it would need to work along side classic wallets, if for no other reason than migration.
2116 2011-06-27 16:40:32 <gmaxwell> Which means it probably can't go in unless bitcoin gets multiwallet support, and thats a bigger project than I have time for.
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2118 2011-06-27 16:40:54 <marioxcc> well, I'm going to work in bitcoin anyway
2119 2011-06-27 16:40:57 <gmaxwell> (plus /that/ needs a bunch of UI programming, and I hate doing UI programming. :) )
2120 2011-06-27 16:40:59 <marioxcc> maybe I will implement the idea
2121 2011-06-27 16:41:11 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: yeah, we all hate GUI programming :)
2122 2011-06-27 16:41:33 <marioxcc> the client I will wrote will use readline as the main UI
2123 2011-06-27 16:41:42 sathyabhat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2124 2011-06-27 16:41:44 <marioxcc> and if I don't get bored too son maybe also ncurses
2125 2011-06-27 16:41:50 vragnaroda has joined
2126 2011-06-27 16:42:25 <gmaxwell> I only ever use the bitcoin cli. I like it. :)
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2128 2011-06-27 16:42:54 SoreThumbs has joined
2129 2011-06-27 16:42:55 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: bitcoind?
2130 2011-06-27 16:43:04 sathyabhat has joined
2131 2011-06-27 16:43:15 <marioxcc> hehe, I forgot about it existence
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2135 2011-06-27 16:50:13 <dubbz82> GUI programming ain't that bad
2136 2011-06-27 16:50:18 <BlueMatt> <gmaxwell> marioxcc: BlueMatt still doesn't like the loss of unstealing. <---wtf???
2137 2011-06-27 16:50:20 gavinandresen has joined
2138 2011-06-27 16:50:22 <dubbz82> if you're using a frontend to do it for you.
2139 2011-06-27 16:50:35 <dubbz82> i.e. one of those eclipse plugin things
2140 2011-06-27 16:50:44 <dubbz82> or if you're coding stuff out in c# or vb..
2141 2011-06-27 16:50:57 <dubbz82> though vb doesn't count.
2142 2011-06-27 16:50:58 <dubbz82> lol
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2147 2011-06-27 16:51:38 <marioxcc> BlueMatt: don't you?
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2149 2011-06-27 16:52:25 <gmaxwell> 09:22 <@BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well I still disagree with that, if you wallet is stolen, and then a year later the attacker goes back and sees if you have new coins, you are fucked...currently you are fine
2150 2011-06-27 16:52:34 Marf has joined
2151 2011-06-27 16:52:49 <gmaxwell> It's a reasonable point.
2152 2011-06-27 16:52:52 <dubbz82> you can always shoot coins off to somewhere else.
2153 2011-06-27 16:53:02 <gmaxwell> You don't know you were robbed.
2154 2011-06-27 16:53:07 <dubbz82> heh
2155 2011-06-27 16:53:19 skeledrew has joined
2156 2011-06-27 16:53:21 <gmaxwell> If you did, you'd just make a new determinstic wallet.
2157 2011-06-27 16:53:54 <dubbz82> do what i've seen recommended before...
2158 2011-06-27 16:53:59 <jgarzik> one of bitcoin's few design (not implementation) flaws is lack of deterministic transaction behavior
2159 2011-06-27 16:54:00 <dubbz82> make yourself a live linux distro
2160 2011-06-27 16:54:04 <dubbz82> on a usb thumb drive
2161 2011-06-27 16:54:11 <dubbz82> and send all your coins to that.
2162 2011-06-27 16:54:11 <gmaxwell> Thats the compromise. I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff for the ability to generate new public keys without access to the private keys, and for having backups that don't fail after an invisible to the user span of time.
2163 2011-06-27 16:54:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ah, well yes I do still disagree with deterministic wallets
2164 2011-06-27 16:54:32 <dubbz82> only use it when you are depositing or pulling funds
2165 2011-06-27 16:54:40 <dubbz82> then use a local wallet
2166 2011-06-27 16:54:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: what is that referring to?
2167 2011-06-27 16:54:44 <dubbz82> for smaller amounts of coins
2168 2011-06-27 16:54:59 <dubbz82> to buy/sell stuff
2169 2011-06-27 16:55:10 <gmaxwell> But I certantly see why it's not perfect and why BlueMatt's preference is not the same as mine.
2170 2011-06-27 16:55:11 <Marf> deteministic wallets, i want tham too
2171 2011-06-27 16:55:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: not referring to any active conversation, if that's what you need
2172 2011-06-27 16:55:15 <Marf> wheres the poll?
2173 2011-06-27 16:55:16 <Marf> ;D
2174 2011-06-27 16:55:17 <jgarzik> s/need/mean/
2175 2011-06-27 16:55:22 <pwrcycle> i transfered .01 BTC to a wallet to test, bitcoind wants .01 to transfer out because of small size. what's the minimum amount bitcoind will transfer with nofee?
2176 2011-06-27 16:55:35 <gmaxwell> (And I've solved the 'backup' problem for myself by simply cranking up the keypool enough that I'm in no risk)
2177 2011-06-27 16:55:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yea, but still, referring to what, exactly?
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2180 2011-06-27 16:56:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: transactions should be replaceable, if they never confirm.  transactions should not hang out in limbo forever.  that's very poor user experience behavior.
2181 2011-06-27 16:56:13 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: 0.01.  But the time the input has been in your wallet counts too. Also, stop running old versions of bitcoin.
2182 2011-06-27 16:56:21 <BlueMatt> pwrcycle: it depends on the age of the input txes, as it only complains about < 0.01 based purely on fee (also, newer version will force 0.005 instead of 0.01)
2183 2011-06-27 16:56:26 <marioxcc> I don't know why people worry so much about those who got their wallet stolen.  there is no one to blame but themselves, and they deserve it
2184 2011-06-27 16:56:42 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: it's been sitting in the wallet.dat for 2weeks now, and still won't transfer.
2185 2011-06-27 16:56:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: that's implementation, not design.
2186 2011-06-27 16:56:47 <gmaxwell> marioxcc: security is hard, blaming the user doesn't make the world a better place.
2187 2011-06-27 16:56:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ah, well that was sort of half-designed but never thought through enough, Id agree, but it is still possible to implement
2188 2011-06-27 16:57:00 <dubbz82> marioxcc, yea, but you can't help but feel a little bad for them.
2189 2011-06-27 16:57:03 <dubbz82> that's gotta suck.
2190 2011-06-27 16:57:16 <BlueMatt> wow, thats the first time Ive seen gavinandresen in like 3 weeks
2191 2011-06-27 16:57:21 * BlueMatt waves to gavinandresen 
2192 2011-06-27 16:57:29 <gavinandresen> howdy Matt
2193 2011-06-27 16:57:32 <dubbz82> but yea, if you got a massive stockpile of coins
2194 2011-06-27 16:57:39 <dubbz82> you should know to secure them better.
2195 2011-06-27 16:57:39 <dubbz82> lolk
2196 2011-06-27 16:57:44 <dubbz82> *lol
2197 2011-06-27 16:57:48 <gmaxwell> pwrcycle: yea, that sounds like a bug.
2198 2011-06-27 16:57:50 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: IMO it's partly design, since satoshi worked hard to avoid the whole un-spending problem, but fair enough
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2200 2011-06-27 16:58:10 <zapnap> gavinandresen jgarzik (and everyone else actively developing): just wanted to say thanks for everything :)
2201 2011-06-27 16:58:20 <jgarzik> satoshi more or less said "unspending is impossible" and left it at that ;)
2202 2011-06-27 16:58:21 <marioxcc> gmaxwell: hard?, no, it isnt
2203 2011-06-27 16:58:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. you could default to sending with a particular nlocktime, and then allow replacement before then. But that doesn't fix the issues with fees.
2204 2011-06-27 16:58:35 <marioxcc> unless you run a server, of course, then you have to know what you do
2205 2011-06-27 16:58:37 <jgarzik> bbi 45 min
2206 2011-06-27 16:58:44 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  solution, it seems to me, is rebroadcast N times.  If txn doesn't succeed, then intentional double-spend a txn-to-self to essentially cancel the old spend.
2207 2011-06-27 16:58:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: nah -- expire TX out of cache after 144 blocks w/ no confirmations
2208 2011-06-27 16:58:56 <marioxcc> security in life is difficult, no one cares if someone loose their physical wallet
2209 2011-06-27 16:59:11 <cyphase> speaking of unspending, i came in here to ask.. how does the bitcoin client handle tx's with scripts with conditions, e.g. nLockTime?
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2212 2011-06-27 16:59:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, works great until some client decides to be a smartass and keeps reflooding old transactions they heard.
2213 2011-06-27 16:59:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: imho solutions should be rebroadcast N times, mark as failed in wallet (but dont double spend to self, as if it failed the first time, why would it go through now?) then ask the user to add more fee
2214 2011-06-27 17:00:19 <BlueMatt> and maybe after a week after the last rebroadcast, mark as failed
2215 2011-06-27 17:00:28 <BlueMatt> but be over-careful to not do that too early
2216 2011-06-27 17:00:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it should count blocks so that it doesn't get in that state when the network is down.
2217 2011-06-27 17:00:35 <dubbz82> heh
2218 2011-06-27 17:00:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that too
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2220 2011-06-27 17:00:46 <pasky> cyphase: if you mean non-standard scriptSigs, it will not relay scriptSigs not fitting one of its two templates AIUI
2221 2011-06-27 17:01:14 <gmaxwell> cyphase: the code looks okay for nLockTime. I think it should just work. Dunno if it does.
2222 2011-06-27 17:01:23 conjre has joined
2223 2011-06-27 17:01:40 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt gmaxwell jgarzik : I'd much rather transactions very, very, very rarely failed to confirm, so it really isn't an issue.  Actually IS it an issue?
2224 2011-06-27 17:01:49 <cyphase> pasky, i meant when receiving them. could someone send someone else a tx, then have it magically disappear because of some condition?
2225 2011-06-27 17:01:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: currently, nope
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2227 2011-06-27 17:02:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: AFAIK it's only an issue for people who have been modifying the client to avoid the current fee behavior.
2228 2011-06-27 17:02:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: but as we consider overhauling fee system, it could become one...still not strictly something that needs discussed now
2229 2011-06-27 17:02:33 <pwrcycle> gmaxwell: i just installed bitcoin-0.2.23 and tried sending again, and get the ".0005" limit msg, even though its .01 i'm trying to send
2230 2011-06-27 17:02:33 karnac has joined
2231 2011-06-27 17:02:38 <gmaxwell> But I've seen some things to suggest that the current fee behavior is broken in any case, for example a minute ago:
2232 2011-06-27 17:02:46 <gmaxwell> 09:55 < pwrcycle> gmaxwell: it's been sitting in the wallet.dat for 2weeks now, and still won't transfer.
2233 2011-06-27 17:02:46 <BlueMatt> pwrcycle: how old are the inputs?
2234 2011-06-27 17:02:56 <pasky> cyphase: ah, I'm not sure but I don't think there's a way to do that now... but you should reallly just start considering transactions when they appear in a block
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2237 2011-06-27 17:03:02 <pwrcycle> BlueMatt: more than 2 weeks since the .01 transfer to that wallet
2238 2011-06-27 17:03:02 <BlueMatt> pwrcycle: and do you have a ton of small inputs?
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2242 2011-06-27 17:03:27 <pwrcycle> BlueMatt: receiving the .01 was the only transaction this wallet and server have ever done.
2243 2011-06-27 17:03:28 <BlueMatt> pwrcycle: is the total wallet balance 0.01? or are there other inputs for bitcoin to chose from?
2244 2011-06-27 17:03:32 <BlueMatt> ah
2245 2011-06-27 17:03:35 <cyphase> pasky, oh, conditions prevent tx's from appearing in a block?
2246 2011-06-27 17:03:43 <gmaxwell> I saw someone like that a few weeks ago which had a single 0.05 input, and a single 0.01 input (IIRC) and they couldn't send the 0.05 even once it was 18 hours old.. but it worked about about 30 hours.
2247 2011-06-27 17:03:56 <gavinandresen> A 0.01 BTC transaction is going to take a LONG time to get enough priority to be accepted by most miners.
2248 2011-06-27 17:04:02 <gmaxwell> (and running the forumula by hand indicated that it should have worked long before that)
2249 2011-06-27 17:04:22 <pwrcycle> gavinandresen: i'm willing to wait, i just want it to transfer.
2250 2011-06-27 17:04:32 <pwrcycle> gavinandresen: this was only suppose to be a test.
2251 2011-06-27 17:04:33 <pasky> cyphase: there are two hurdles for tx's: (i) they must satisfy some conditions to get relayed to mining nodes (ii) they must satisfy some conditions to get to a block created by particular miner
2252 2011-06-27 17:04:51 <cyphase> pasky, i see. i just thought they prevented spending of the money, but would still appear in blocks
2253 2011-06-27 17:04:51 <pasky> cyphase: actually, default rules for (ii) tend to be less strict than (i) on the whole
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2258 2011-06-27 17:06:07 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can I humbly submit that we define 0.5 as having a full rebase into strictly defined parts of bitcoin, eg. CWallet + CNotificationInterface + CNet, etc all of which communicate with CNotificationInterface and then some kind of CClient which all uis use sans and kind of access to global data structures?
2259 2011-06-27 17:06:09 <pasky> cyphase: what appears in blocks determines what money has been spent :)
2260 2011-06-27 17:06:31 <pwrcycle> so my question was if i could put more BTC in the wallet, would it transfer, but now i'm not confident in that even.
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2262 2011-06-27 17:07:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I've wanted a libbitcoin for over a year, so sure, I'm all for that. The trick is to "replace the engine while it is running"
2263 2011-06-27 17:07:42 <cyphase> pasky, i know, i just thought a transaction with a condition would appear in a block, but the money wouldn't be spendable until the condition was met. as opposed to not being able to go into a block until the condition is met
2264 2011-06-27 17:08:01 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yep, well I think Ill take a dive and work on that after I get a bunch of small things out of the way, and maybe if sipa has time, he will as well (like he did with CWallet)
2265 2011-06-27 17:08:06 <cyphase> pasky, sorry if im not understanding something, im new to this aspect of bitcoin :)
2266 2011-06-27 17:09:03 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  start with a straw-man API spec, please...
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2268 2011-06-27 17:09:34 <pasky> cyphase: ah! well i'm not too much of an expert myself yet, but AIUI this is possible to achieve in scripts (e.g. vote-based spending), and AFAIK there are benevolent miners that will include pretty much anything; but default bitcoin client won't relay non-standard scripts so it will be a hassle to get such trnasactions included
2269 2011-06-27 17:10:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well, I was considering starting with refactoring into a nice net class and some notification interfaces first, but starting with api for uis seems just as appealing
2270 2011-06-27 17:10:34 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: but yea, if I do api stuff first, Ill do so
2271 2011-06-27 17:12:44 <pwrcycle> any suggestions on getting the .01 BTC out of that wallet.dat with no fee?
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2273 2011-06-27 17:13:13 <cyphase> pasky, then whats the point of scripts if the client doesnt broadcast non-standard ones? or is that just because there's still experimental?
2274 2011-06-27 17:13:21 <cyphase> they're*
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2276 2011-06-27 17:13:26 <pasky> cyphase: it's a pity that there are no blocknumber/timestamp substitutions in scripts currently, otherwise you could do fun things like "bitcoin monthly rent"
2277 2011-06-27 17:13:28 TheZimm has quit (Quit: When will we learn?)
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2280 2011-06-27 17:13:37 <marioxcc> "I think OP should have to move his coins every 20 minutes or I get them." <-- who's OP?
2281 2011-06-27 17:13:49 <gavinandresen> jgarzik or BlueMatt or sipa : where are we at with the autotools patch ?
2282 2011-06-27 17:13:49 <cyphase> pasky, there aren't? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
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2286 2011-06-27 17:15:16 <pasky> cyphase: hmm well there is a lock time but that is not a part of script
2287 2011-06-27 17:15:43 <cyphase> aah
2288 2011-06-27 17:16:04 <pasky> cyphase: i can imagine some reasons why default client does not relay non-standard scripts, but I'm not too convinced either and I have not made that decision, so someone else should defend that ;)
2289 2011-06-27 17:16:28 <Optimo> gavinandresen: do you think there would be any benefit in discussin the situation with clearcoin so the next attempt can be better implemented? the bitcoin users seem to be hungry for an 'escrow'
2290 2011-06-27 17:16:39 <cyphase> so how does that work then? do those time locked transactions get included in blocks but cant be spent until the time is reached, or are they not included until the time is reached?
2291 2011-06-27 17:16:43 <Optimo> if this was already on the forums, forgive me
2292 2011-06-27 17:16:58 wood is now known as zleeb
2293 2011-06-27 17:17:34 <gavinandresen> Optimo: no, I think lots of discussion without a concrete implementation would just be design-by-committee
2294 2011-06-27 17:17:42 <pasky> cyphase: I'm not familiar with those, I think the latter but surely that's explained on the wiki page you linked?
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2297 2011-06-27 17:19:12 <Optimo> gavinandresen: well I was curious if the blocking issues were protocol related or just a general issue with website security
2298 2011-06-27 17:19:13 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: why'd you decide to close clearcoin?
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2300 2011-06-27 17:19:42 <cyphase> pasky, i think i might have been thrown off by thinking nlocktime was a script thing. i just reread, and it looks like the tx is broadcast with nlocktime set. presumably that means its included in blocks, not just broadcast to sit in the queue for 6 months :P
2301 2011-06-27 17:19:53 <Optimo> I won't bug about it but the regular folk might try to build something similar
2302 2011-06-27 17:19:53 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: because I don't have enough time to do a great job with clearcoin and a great job with bitcoin core.  So I'm going to concentrate on bitcoin core
2303 2011-06-27 17:20:13 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: fair enough. was just wondering if you found other existing issues with the code base
2304 2011-06-27 17:20:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: autotools, afaik it still hasnt been tested more than when I asked last, at this point, Id say it just needs modified to return error if on windows instead of "Not yet implemented, trying anyway" as it is guaranteed not to work, then pull
2305 2011-06-27 17:20:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and let it be tested then
2306 2011-06-27 17:20:28 <jrmithdobbs> or if it was more just cautionary not wanting to find them the hard way
2307 2011-06-27 17:20:38 <jrmithdobbs> due to lack of time
2308 2011-06-27 17:21:07 <cyphase> pasky, or not, apparently. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx
2309 2011-06-27 17:21:14 mtrlt is now known as mtrlt_
2310 2011-06-27 17:21:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and iirc, I saw yet another patch to make it work better which needs to be applied first, let me go look (or maybe Im confused)
2311 2011-06-27 17:21:22 <cyphase> "The block number or timestamp at which this transaction is locked, or 0 if the transaction is always locked. A non-locked transaction must not be included in blocks, and it can be modified by broadcasting a new version before the time has expired (replacement is currently disabled in Bitcoin, however, so this is useless)."
2312 2011-06-27 17:21:27 <Optimo> yeah that's what I'm digging at; whether there was something learned recently that might help others building a similar thing to clearcoin
2313 2011-06-27 17:21:49 * Optimo learns scripts
2314 2011-06-27 17:22:18 <jrmithdobbs> Optimo: i don't think doing escrow is worth it without an in-blockchain method. i have used clearcoin in the past though ;p
2315 2011-06-27 17:22:29 <jrmithdobbs> (since it was the only real option)
2316 2011-06-27 17:23:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hm, I mustve been dreaming...anyway, as soon as jgarzik gets around to testing mingw xcompile on fedora (or someone does) and windows gets marked as "echo dont use this; exit;" its got my ack to pull
2317 2011-06-27 17:23:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you need more osx testing on it?
2318 2011-06-27 17:23:51 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: ClearCoin security wasn't a big issue when there were only hundreds of coins in escrow (even if they were compromised, I was essentially self-insuring with my own personal bitcoins).  But with it starting to gain popularity, it would be irresponsible of me to just let it keep going without investing real resources in penetration testing, etc etc etc
2319 2011-06-27 17:24:01 <pasky> cyphase: yes, just checked, transactions that are not final are not included, which makes total sense
2320 2011-06-27 17:24:11 <xtalmath> how much terra watt would go into mining?
2321 2011-06-27 17:24:25 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: that is an awesome answer and what I was hoping for. ;)
2322 2011-06-27 17:24:46 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: more is always better here, so...yes
2323 2011-06-27 17:25:00 <zapnap> still having issues getting pushpool to compile on osx :(, time to give up and fire up virtualbox :D
2324 2011-06-27 17:25:03 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: which is the current branch to pull from?
2325 2011-06-27 17:25:16 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: does osx even have libevent?
2326 2011-06-27 17:25:18 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: jaromil:autotools3
2327 2011-06-27 17:25:23 <zapnap> jrmithdobbs: yeah
2328 2011-06-27 17:25:26 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/180
2329 2011-06-27 17:25:28 <zapnap> jrmithdobbs: the issue is the endian/byteswap stuff
2330 2011-06-27 17:25:38 <zapnap> which is different under bsd/osx
2331 2011-06-27 17:25:44 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: huh?
2332 2011-06-27 17:25:49 <cyphase> pasky, but then how could you do something like deposits described on the contract page? seems kind of flimsy to not have that in the blockchain. im sure im missing something though
2333 2011-06-27 17:25:50 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  should I check for libevent?
2334 2011-06-27 17:25:51 <[Tycho]> ;;bc.stats
2335 2011-06-27 17:25:51 <gribble> Error: "bc.stats" is not a valid command.
2336 2011-06-27 17:25:54 <zapnap> byteswap.h and endian.h don't exist under os x
2337 2011-06-27 17:25:56 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
2338 2011-06-27 17:25:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133558 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1513 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 17 hours, 40 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1491463.35087738
2339 2011-06-27 17:25:59 <midnightmagic> uh.. how does one check out a specific branch of a git repository?
2340 2011-06-27 17:26:05 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: and especially try the instructions written up at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/180/files#diff-9
2341 2011-06-27 17:26:05 <zapnap> it's libkern/OSByteOrder.h instead, and the defs are different
2342 2011-06-27 17:26:06 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: oh
2343 2011-06-27 17:26:18 <zapnap> if anyone has experience, i'd be indebted...
2344 2011-06-27 17:26:36 <pasky> cyphase: well, you publish the transaction and sign it; then, it hangs around and an interested party can just stash it aside and re-broadcast when it expires
2345 2011-06-27 17:26:39 Kolky has joined
2346 2011-06-27 17:26:46 <zapnap> obviously i deploy in linux, but it'd be nice to have the whole stack working on my local dev box (mac)
2347 2011-06-27 17:26:52 <pasky> s/expires/"reaches maturity"/, i suppose
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2349 2011-06-27 17:27:09 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i see one problem with that text just off the bat
2350 2011-06-27 17:27:21 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: oh?
2351 2011-06-27 17:27:30 <cyphase> pasky, so the locktime doesnt enforce the deposit, it gives someone the information to enforce it?
2352 2011-06-27 17:27:48 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: actually, nm still says build wx from svn
2353 2011-06-27 17:27:58 * Optimo wants to scheme up a 3-party coin lockbox like a clearcoin
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2355 2011-06-27 17:28:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the macports wxWidgets-devel (2.9) port has no way to turn off the stupid assertion dialogs so building against it is retarded, from the initial macports comment i thought everything was going to be pulled from macports
2356 2011-06-27 17:28:36 <pasky> cyphase: i'm not sure how do you mean that
2357 2011-06-27 17:28:39 <Optimo> I am not totally educated; I thought clearcoin was an autonomous node with a wallet
2358 2011-06-27 17:29:33 <Optimo> and jrmithdobbs your issue with it is that a half-transacted entry doesn't show in the chain?
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2363 2011-06-27 17:30:34 <Optimo> so the escrow implementation is using one of those contract ideas via script..right?
2364 2011-06-27 17:31:04 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what autoconf/autotools version is this expecting? I can't even gen the files
2365 2011-06-27 17:31:07 <jrmithdobbs> lol
2366 2011-06-27 17:31:13 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no idea, wfm
2367 2011-06-27 17:31:23 <jrmithdobbs> what version you using?
2368 2011-06-27 17:31:51 <BlueMatt> autoreconf (GNU Autoconf) 2.67
2369 2011-06-27 17:31:56 <jrmithdobbs> using 2.68 / 1.11.1 from macports
2370 2011-06-27 17:32:00 <b4epoche> zapnap:  what the issue compiling pushpool on osx?
2371 2011-06-27 17:33:57 <BlueMatt> why does it appear this is on old version... I fixed some stuff and I thought he had pushed it...
2372 2011-06-27 17:36:28 <cyphase> pasky, using the deposit example from the contract page, if i go though that process with a website, then broadcast Tx1 and Tx2, Tx1 would be included in the blockchain ASAP, correct? however, Tx2 would linger for 6 months for the locktime to be reached before being included. whats to prevent the website from creating a Tx2a that spends the btc they've been paid and broadcasting that?
2373 2011-06-27 17:36:52 <midnightmagic> is ckolivas here?
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2377 2011-06-27 17:37:46 <cyphase> pasky, and while i was writing that, i think i realized the answer. is it that Tx1 sends to address D, and requires that to spend those BTC, the spending tx has to be signed by both users?
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2379 2011-06-27 17:38:05 <midnightmagic> jgarzik? you here?
2380 2011-06-27 17:38:27 <cyphase> to spend those BTC from address D to address X*
2381 2011-06-27 17:39:07 <midnightmagic> +20MH/s..
2382 2011-06-27 17:39:08 <midnightmagic> wow
2383 2011-06-27 17:39:15 <Optimo> wow
2384 2011-06-27 17:39:22 <midnightmagic> per card.
2385 2011-06-27 17:39:26 <midnightmagic> on 5870..
2386 2011-06-27 17:39:34 <copumpkin> with the macro change?
2387 2011-06-27 17:39:51 <midnightmagic> is that directed at me?
2388 2011-06-27 17:39:57 sabalaba has joined
2389 2011-06-27 17:40:13 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: ?
2390 2011-06-27 17:40:18 * jgarzik returns
2391 2011-06-27 17:40:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: commented on the pull
2392 2011-06-27 17:40:51 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: see what jaromil says
2393 2011-06-27 17:41:03 <copumpkin> midnightmagic: yeah
2394 2011-06-27 17:41:36 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: The gpuminer branch of your code doesn't have an OpenCL platform detector. Before I modify ocl.c and the argument parser, has this work already been done? Looks like the c miner adds another 20MH/s on my system, so I'm switching over to it completely. (Plus desktop is usable, so I don't have to go somewhere else to use my machines.)
2395 2011-06-27 17:41:47 PwnusMaximus has joined
2396 2011-06-27 17:41:53 <midnightmagic> copumpkin: I never used it before, so I don't know. This is over the best speeds I could get from poclbm
2397 2011-06-27 17:42:10 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: until it's merged, best to ask 'conman' on #bitcoin-mining questions like this
2398 2011-06-27 17:42:18 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: very good then.
2399 2011-06-27 17:42:28 <copumpkin> midnightmagic: oh, I guess my question is "what are you talking about?" :)
2400 2011-06-27 17:42:55 kish has joined
2401 2011-06-27 17:43:06 <midnightmagic> copumpkin: the gpuminer that "conman" branched from jgarzik's miner and added OpenCL mining to KILLS my poclbm setup. +40MH/s in one machine.
2402 2011-06-27 17:43:12 <midnightmagic> plus I have my desktop back
2403 2011-06-27 17:43:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: that should be autoreconf -i
2404 2011-06-27 17:43:51 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: our autotools needs an autogen.sh that rebuilds all autoconf stuff
2405 2011-06-27 17:44:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that it does...
2406 2011-06-27 17:44:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it failed miserably on Fedora; scripts wouldn't even build
2407 2011-06-27 17:44:30 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: damn
2408 2011-06-27 17:44:32 <jgarzik> much less get to the 'building bitcoin' part
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2412 2011-06-27 17:46:51 <pasky> cyphase: sorry, no time to read through that page right now
2413 2011-06-27 17:47:11 <cyphase> pasky, no problem, thanks for all your time :)
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2421 2011-06-27 18:01:22 <nanotube> UukGoblin: well, fwiw, "all else equal" it seems the alt-chain linked to main chain via coinbase seems to me a 'cleaner' solution than having to stick extra stuff into the main chain itself. with TD's suggested approach, it's possible to pay for alt-chain events with mainchain bitcoins, all while avoiding hash power fragmentation.
2422 2011-06-27 18:01:46 <nanotube> UukGoblin: the only downside is that it's more complex to implement. the upside is that you don't get extra stuff in the mainchain.
2423 2011-06-27 18:02:05 <BlueMatt> nanotube: TD's scheme doesnt require any paying
2424 2011-06-27 18:02:19 <nanotube> BlueMatt: but it allows it. which is what counts :)
2425 2011-06-27 18:02:28 <BlueMatt> nanotube: it does?
2426 2011-06-27 18:02:28 <nanotube> for things like domains, you /want/ to require paying
2427 2011-06-27 18:02:44 <BlueMatt> last I checked, it doesnt allow paying
2428 2011-06-27 18:03:00 <nanotube> BlueMatt: if it allows to 'park' coins, it also allows to spend coins in tx fees.
2429 2011-06-27 18:03:04 <BlueMatt> it allows paying using secondary chain coins, not bitcoins
2430 2011-06-27 18:03:17 <nanotube> basically, by allowing reference to bitcoin transactions, it's possible to do anything
2431 2011-06-27 18:03:23 <BlueMatt> well, one could park coins, but that is exactly what TD's scheme doesnt do
2432 2011-06-27 18:03:34 <BlueMatt> (on purpose)
2433 2011-06-27 18:03:36 <nanotube> sigh... /me hunts for that forum thread again
2434 2011-06-27 18:04:47 <tcatm> I remember discussing this on IRC and I think we almost found a way to make it work.
2435 2011-06-27 18:04:57 <nanotube> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.0;topicseen
2436 2011-06-27 18:04:58 <nanotube> here it is
2437 2011-06-27 18:05:13 <nanotube> BlueMatt: see 'paying for alternate resources with bitcoins' section
2438 2011-06-27 18:05:32 <BlueMatt> nanotube: that was UukGoblin writing that, not TD, and its not correct
2439 2011-06-27 18:05:44 SoreThumbs has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2440 2011-06-27 18:05:49 <THC_BTC> <---- Writes custom wallet "backup" files... Just run the exe and it uploads wallet to ftp server of your choice...  **DISCLAIMER** I am not encouraging this be used to steal peoples wallets, but you can do whatever you want with it.  msg me if interested.
2441 2011-06-27 18:05:49 <nanotube> BlueMatt: the section is in mikehern's post
2442 2011-06-27 18:05:54 <nanotube> BlueMatt: so it was most certainly TD writing it
2443 2011-06-27 18:06:01 <BlueMatt> huh?
2444 2011-06-27 18:06:16 <nanotube> BlueMatt: just clicky the link, read first post, then come back :)
2445 2011-06-27 18:06:19 <BlueMatt> 1 sec
2446 2011-06-27 18:06:30 <nanotube> BlueMatt: or if you want to save time, scroll first post until you get to that section i mentioned :)
2447 2011-06-27 18:06:40 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * rd123e195ee32 pushpool/ (.gitignore configure.ac): configure.ac: call AC_CANONICAL_HOST for proper host detect; bump version http://tinyurl.com/5seqs9j
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2453 2011-06-27 18:09:03 <BlueMatt> nanotube: ah, well ok, yes, you can park coins and spend, fair enough
2454 2011-06-27 18:09:08 * BlueMatt wasnt thinking straight...
2455 2011-06-27 18:09:15 <nanotube> :)
2456 2011-06-27 18:09:17 <BlueMatt> THC_BTC: we've already seen such software
2457 2011-06-27 18:10:06 <nanotube> BlueMatt: so as i said, can achieve all the same things as piggyback-dns, using td's framework. which is a big + in my book. :)
2458 2011-06-27 18:10:12 Sedra has joined
2459 2011-06-27 18:10:19 <BlueMatt> yep
2460 2011-06-27 18:10:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it probably would be good to get integrated remote backup. ... if only to suppress services that really steal your wallet.
2461 2011-06-27 18:10:58 <nanotube> gmaxwell: having a backup doesn't prevent someone from stealing your coins, though...
2462 2011-06-27 18:11:05 <gmaxwell> (but, meh, wishlist. Personally cron does me well)
2463 2011-06-27 18:11:38 <gmaxwell> nanotube: right, but one less reason to install some bitcoin user targeted binary.
2464 2011-06-27 18:12:22 <gmaxwell> (not that I'd ever suffer from this, but if other bitcoin users suffer we all suffer due to loss in confidence…)
2465 2011-06-27 18:12:52 amiller has joined
2466 2011-06-27 18:13:10 <nanotube> gmaxwell: ah i see now what you mean by 'suppress services that steal your wallet' :)
2467 2011-06-27 18:14:34 <taub> how long are btc addresses?
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2470 2011-06-27 18:16:29 <bmwiedemann> taub: 34 chars
2471 2011-06-27 18:16:38 <gavinandresen> Anybody willing to sanity check a pull for me?  Framework for boost unit tests:  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/356
2472 2011-06-27 18:18:13 <josephholsten> gavinandresen: that's a couple awesome test cases!
2473 2011-06-27 18:19:50 <marioxcc> taub: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
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2479 2011-06-27 18:23:41 <unclemantis> any shops selling graphics cards for bitcoin that are reasonably priced and not using bitcoin hype to extort a huge price increase?
2480 2011-06-27 18:24:22 <marioxcc> unclemantis: look in ebay, some people is doing that
2481 2011-06-27 18:24:27 <marioxcc> I don't know if they're fair priced
2482 2011-06-27 18:24:35 <marioxcc> anyway, you might have better luck in -mining :)
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2487 2011-06-27 18:25:12 <UukGoblin> nanotube, where's the TD's proposal about paying for other stuff with bitcoins?
2488 2011-06-27 18:25:27 <UukGoblin> is that the coin parking thing or sth else?
2489 2011-06-27 18:25:31 <unclemantis> marioxcc thank you
2490 2011-06-27 18:25:42 lyspooner has joined
2491 2011-06-27 18:26:29 <marioxcc> unclemantis: I'm also surpriseed than bitcoin auctions are well above market quotes
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2499 2011-06-27 18:29:28 <nanotube> UukGoblin: it is the coin parking-or-any-other-transaction reference thing.
2500 2011-06-27 18:29:52 <nanotube> UukGoblin: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=7219.0;topicseen see first post, 'paying for things with bitcoins' section (end of post)
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2503 2011-06-27 18:30:36 <UukGoblin> nanotube, i don't think that does the job, actually
2504 2011-06-27 18:30:57 <nanotube> UukGoblin: elaborate please :)
2505 2011-06-27 18:31:03 <UukGoblin> all it says is "Other schemes are possible, like pay to miner", but doesn't give any details
2506 2011-06-27 18:31:23 <nanotube> UukGoblin: well it's obvious - just make sure the transaction you reference is one that has the appropriate txfee attached
2507 2011-06-27 18:31:36 <nanotube> and there's your pay to miner
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2511 2011-06-27 18:32:05 <UukGoblin> nanotube, well in a simple timestamping scenario, i want to pay x to miner for timestamping my data y
2512 2011-06-27 18:32:26 <nanotube> yes?
2513 2011-06-27 18:33:52 <nanotube> you can do that either by including said data in a tx... or by not including it, but instead referencing that tx from an alt chain and including it there.
2514 2011-06-27 18:34:12 <nanotube> it seems both are equivalent, with the latter merely avoiding extra data load on mainchain
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2517 2011-06-27 18:35:02 <UukGoblin> hrm, i don't remember what it was now, but i think it had to do with the fact you can't ensure the altchain miner will play nice... will get back to you on that
2518 2011-06-27 18:35:03 ionspin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2519 2011-06-27 18:35:25 <UukGoblin> (not to mention lack of incentive of altchain mining)
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2526 2011-06-27 18:36:43 <unclemantis> why isn't Bitcoin listed as a payment currency?
2527 2011-06-27 18:36:48 <unclemantis> for ebay
2528 2011-06-27 18:37:14 <THC_BTC> I make custom wallet.dat backup exe's (takes the wallet file off any computer running windows and sends it to a ftp)... I have the source code for sale too...  I also can get you a bank account TODAY.. You get the routing and account # instantly and a debit card with 5 days.. It works with paypal/dwolla/libertyreserve/mtgox/bitcoin7/tradehill/etc.  MSG me if interested.  Thanks
2529 2011-06-27 18:37:18 josephholsten has left ()
2530 2011-06-27 18:37:28 <sturles> unclemantis: Because ebay owns PayPal.
2531 2011-06-27 18:37:38 Katapult has joined
2532 2011-06-27 18:37:58 <BlueMatt> THC_BTC: please advertise on -otc instead of here, inappropriate
2533 2011-06-27 18:38:05 earthmeLon has joined
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2535 2011-06-27 18:38:06 earthmeLon has joined
2536 2011-06-27 18:38:32 <unclemantis> THC_BTC bitcoin client has that built in
2537 2011-06-27 18:38:41 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: it does?
2538 2011-06-27 18:38:48 <tim> and FTP aint secure...
2539 2011-06-27 18:38:52 <unclemantis> BlueMatt i am just saying that to get him out of here :P
2540 2011-06-27 18:39:31 <Sickness\> ftp is as secure as you make it
2541 2011-06-27 18:40:25 stuhood has joined
2542 2011-06-27 18:40:30 <spm_Draget> *smartassmode on* ftp lacks the 's' indicating that it is tunneled over ssl which makes it per design inscure *smartassmode off*
2543 2011-06-27 18:40:40 <luke-jr> Sickness\: FTP is not secure
2544 2011-06-27 18:40:42 <Sickness\> yeah
2545 2011-06-27 18:40:52 stuhood has left ()
2546 2011-06-27 18:40:52 <Sickness\> every single ftp server available today supports ftps
2547 2011-06-27 18:41:08 Nexus_7 has joined
2548 2011-06-27 18:41:19 <vrs> servers do, clients not so much
2549 2011-06-27 18:41:28 <Sickness\> err
2550 2011-06-27 18:41:28 <luke-jr> nobody uses ftps
2551 2011-06-27 18:41:30 <luke-jr> just sftp
2552 2011-06-27 18:41:35 <luke-jr> and sftp isn't paired with ftp
2553 2011-06-27 18:41:36 <vrs> i use ftps
2554 2011-06-27 18:41:39 <Sickness\> I use it
2555 2011-06-27 18:41:41 <Sickness\> every single day
2556 2011-06-27 18:41:43 <Sickness\> on various servers
2557 2011-06-27 18:41:44 <Sickness\> what now?
2558 2011-06-27 18:41:51 <Sickness\> and every popular ftp client supports ftps
2559 2011-06-27 18:41:51 <luke-jr> now you're nobody
2560 2011-06-27 18:41:59 <Sickness\> u mad cuz im stylin on u?
2561 2011-06-27 18:42:02 <vrs> sftp is slow as fuck on me sometimes
2562 2011-06-27 18:42:04 <luke-jr> what's a ftp client?
2563 2011-06-27 18:42:11 <vrs> Sickness\: filezilla != every popular ftp client
2564 2011-06-27 18:42:20 <Sickness\> flashfxp, ftprush, etc
2565 2011-06-27 18:42:28 <luke-jr> why would you need some custom program just to move files around?
2566 2011-06-27 18:42:30 <vrs> good non-gui ones too?
2567 2011-06-27 18:43:01 <vrs> luke-jr: sftp is slower than ftps, at least it was every time I tried
2568 2011-06-27 18:43:01 <THC_BTC> sorry
2569 2011-06-27 18:43:05 THC_BTC has left ()
2570 2011-06-27 18:43:49 Nexus79 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2571 2011-06-27 18:44:04 Kiba has joined
2572 2011-06-27 18:44:41 dbasch has joined
2573 2011-06-27 18:44:51 <denisx> try sftp -o "Cipher=arcfour" machine
2574 2011-06-27 18:45:18 <diki> is it possible to pimp my address?
2575 2011-06-27 18:45:29 <diki> a custom address
2576 2011-06-27 18:45:30 TheZimm has joined
2577 2011-06-27 18:46:25 <Sickness\> [20:41:02] <vrs> good non-gui ones too?
2578 2011-06-27 18:46:28 <Sickness\> curl, lftp
2579 2011-06-27 18:47:31 <vrs> hm, i use ncftp
2580 2011-06-27 18:47:37 <lianj> curlftpfs
2581 2011-06-27 18:47:39 Sebastan has joined
2582 2011-06-27 18:48:13 <lianj> this really is a non-ui one too :D
2583 2011-06-27 18:48:43 <Sickness\> so I guess we can conclude that it is widely supported
2584 2011-06-27 18:50:18 Nexus_7 is now known as Nexus79
2585 2011-06-27 18:50:50 * diki wants a custom address
2586 2011-06-27 18:52:02 <pasky> diki: for how much? :)
2587 2011-06-27 18:52:06 * pasky hides
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2591 2011-06-27 18:54:44 <BlueMatt> arg, I had gotten autotools working fine on xcompile, then jaromil merged it, and now he has reverted it and it doesnt work...wtf man
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2611 2011-06-27 19:05:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it should be autoreconf -i  not just autoconf?
2612 2011-06-27 19:05:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: seconding jgarzik if the process isn't just "autoconf" it needs to be in a script.
2613 2011-06-27 19:05:56 Sedra has joined
2614 2011-06-27 19:06:10 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I dont know what it should be, but on this one, jaromil said run autoreconf -i isntead
2615 2011-06-27 19:06:25 <BlueMatt> for all I know he did it all wrong, but thats what he told me and it wfm
2616 2011-06-27 19:06:34 <BlueMatt> (well it used to)
2617 2011-06-27 19:06:35 <jrmithdobbs> ya autoreconf -i makes it works
2618 2011-06-27 19:07:08 <BlueMatt> though seriously at this point, Im considering giving up on this crap
2619 2011-06-27 19:07:17 <jrmithdobbs> what crap?
2620 2011-06-27 19:07:23 <jrmithdobbs> build systems?
2621 2011-06-27 19:07:25 <jrmithdobbs> ya they're a bitch.
2622 2011-06-27 19:07:30 <BlueMatt> autotools
2623 2011-06-27 19:07:56 <BlueMatt> I took a ton of time a couple weeks ago and fixed it all up to work on mingw, then sent them to jaromil and he said he added them
2624 2011-06-27 19:08:03 <freakazoid> autotools is the worst build system there is, except for all the others.
2625 2011-06-27 19:08:09 <BlueMatt> in the end he added like 2/30 diffs and it isnt even close to working...
2626 2011-06-27 19:08:24 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: ya there is no good option
2627 2011-06-27 19:08:32 <BlueMatt> now I have to go back and figure out what made it work to fix it again
2628 2011-06-27 19:08:36 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: my plan is to take his work as a base, and get it working.  I've done autotools for years, and jaromil keeps making newb mistakes
2629 2011-06-27 19:09:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: plus he's getting increasingly difficult to work with :/
2630 2011-06-27 19:09:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: alright, well Ill let it sit and let you work on it instead of duplicating my work again
2631 2011-06-27 19:10:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well he seems to think that since he hacked together something that worked for him, we should pull it...even though it doesnt work for many others
2632 2011-06-27 19:11:06 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yeah, he had that same attitude with the original pull request.  he even flipped out when I pulled -his- source tree org
2633 2011-06-27 19:11:18 <jrmithdobbs> ya something else is broke
2634 2011-06-27 19:11:29 <BlueMatt> well, to be fair, he didnt realize you pulled his thing and he just really wanted his name on it
2635 2011-06-27 19:11:34 <diki> BlueMatt:what is the secret to a custom address?
2636 2011-06-27 19:11:35 <freakazoid> Build tools seem like systems administration tools - everyone builds their own that does just what they need and nothing else, then releases it, then someone else sees that it doesn't do exactly what they need and makes THEIR own
2637 2011-06-27 19:11:38 <diki> i've seen em before
2638 2011-06-27 19:11:41 <BlueMatt> diki: gavin's patch
2639 2011-06-27 19:11:41 <jrmithdobbs> launching the gui with --datadir still tries to touch ~/Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin
2640 2011-06-27 19:11:47 <jrmithdobbs> and it shouldn't
2641 2011-06-27 19:11:50 <BlueMatt> diki: look for gavin's vanity patch
2642 2011-06-27 19:12:08 TD_ has joined
2643 2011-06-27 19:12:57 <jrmithdobbs> also still doesn't auto-package the .app bundle (and the pieces required to build the .app bundle are not included in the source tree)
2644 2011-06-27 19:13:54 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: was that present in the old [i.e. current upstream] osx build?
2645 2011-06-27 19:13:55 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: can you pull-req the stuff thats needed in the source tree (and make sure laszlo has/will license them under mit)?
2646 2011-06-27 19:14:00 phatsphere has joined
2647 2011-06-27 19:14:01 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: yes
2648 2011-06-27 19:14:06 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: it was?
2649 2011-06-27 19:14:17 <jrmithdobbs> the current behaviour was present
2650 2011-06-27 19:14:22 <jrmithdobbs> ie, not having it
2651 2011-06-27 19:14:40 <BlueMatt> ok, yea then if you pull req it, Im sure it can be pulled ;)
2652 2011-06-27 19:14:50 <BlueMatt> (and if you check copyright on it though)
2653 2011-06-27 19:15:05 <jrmithdobbs> something's broke with this build though
2654 2011-06-27 19:15:11 <jrmithdobbs> because it's ignoring --datadir
2655 2011-06-27 19:15:37 sipa has joined
2656 2011-06-27 19:15:52 <jrmithdobbs> i know because I specifically have ~/Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin symlinked to a (not currently mounted) encrypted filesystem and passing it a different --datadir is still trying to create that dir since it thinks it doesn't exist
2657 2011-06-27 19:15:55 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: should be -datadir not --datadir
2658 2011-06-27 19:16:15 <jrmithdobbs> oh you're right my bad
2659 2011-06-27 19:16:26 <jrmithdobbs> ok, build launched
2660 2011-06-27 19:16:35 <minus> yeah, command line options are fucked up
2661 2011-06-27 19:16:52 * minus hides
2662 2011-06-27 19:17:09 <ersi> It's damn funky only having one hypen
2663 2011-06-27 19:17:12 <jrmithdobbs> linked against wkWidgets-devel from ports (which throws annoying as fuck assertion dialogs but whatever) and miniupnpc from ports so the req for building against custom-built miniupnpc instructions need to be removed
2664 2011-06-27 19:17:35 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: you used autoreconf -i?
2665 2011-06-27 19:17:37 <jrmithdobbs> (I actually talked with the port maintainer and got him to fix the version of miniupnpc he was packaging. he was unknowingly packaging dev snapshots instead of stable)
2666 2011-06-27 19:17:42 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya
2667 2011-06-27 19:17:46 <sipa> ok
2668 2011-06-27 19:17:49 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2669 2011-06-27 19:17:56 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: that wxWidgets-devel package is semi-hosed
2670 2011-06-27 19:17:56 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2671 2011-06-27 19:18:03 <sipa> i see
2672 2011-06-27 19:18:12 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: it builds with all assertions going to a dialog instead of stdout/err
2673 2011-06-27 19:18:19 <jrmithdobbs> even non-fatal
2674 2011-06-27 19:18:42 <jrmithdobbs> have to hit cancel on the first one and it stops
2675 2011-06-27 19:18:50 falafell has joined
2676 2011-06-27 19:19:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: putting together pull for the .app bundle, can you handle asking him about licensing? afaict there's nothing copyrightable in his bundle anyways except the icon which he doesn't own anyways
2677 2011-06-27 19:20:17 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: everything is copyrightable, esp a file that has text in it...
2678 2011-06-27 19:20:17 zamgo has joined
2679 2011-06-27 19:20:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's a config file with values defined by apple
2680 2011-06-27 19:20:33 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: iirc the email is solar@helical or smth, its in the config
2681 2011-06-27 19:20:35 <nhodges> not in China
2682 2011-06-27 19:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: if anyone owns the copyright it's apple not him ;p
2683 2011-06-27 19:21:05 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2684 2011-06-27 19:21:06 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: just send him an email and say "Hey, is all the files that I got from xxx licensed under MIT like bitcoin so it can be committed"
2685 2011-06-27 19:21:11 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: thats not how copyright works
2686 2011-06-27 19:21:31 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: or do the files already have a MIT header in them?
2687 2011-06-27 19:21:38 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2688 2011-06-27 19:21:39 <sipa> well who wrote the file?
2689 2011-06-27 19:21:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: laszlo
2690 2011-06-27 19:21:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: Im sure he agrees, just need written proof before commit
2691 2011-06-27 19:22:13 Ramen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2692 2011-06-27 19:22:36 taub has left ("Verlassend")
2693 2011-06-27 19:22:57 <jrmithdobbs> there's seriously nothing copyrightable in this file, it's taken verbatim from an xcode howto with Bitcoin thrown in the CFBundleDisplayName field, bitcoin thrown in the CFBundleExecutable field (name of binary), and the svn commit it was originally released with
2694 2011-06-27 19:23:56 <BlueMatt> still copyrightable
2695 2011-06-27 19:24:15 <BlueMatt> "I put stuff in a file" is copyrightable...just the way it is
2696 2011-06-27 19:24:29 someone0 has joined
2697 2011-06-27 19:24:33 Rykaro has joined
2698 2011-06-27 19:24:34 <jrmithdobbs> well here, i'll pull the same xcode howto and put the values in myself
2699 2011-06-27 19:24:38 someone0 has quit (Client Quit)
2700 2011-06-27 19:24:56 <BlueMatt> also, very off topic: any recommendations for a good linux-supporting laptop with a good trackpad?
2701 2011-06-27 19:25:07 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: seriously just send the guy an email
2702 2011-06-27 19:25:12 <tcatm> BlueMatt: thinkpad with trackpoint? :)
2703 2011-06-27 19:25:15 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: arent there like 5 files in that bundle?
2704 2011-06-27 19:25:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: two, one's the icon
2705 2011-06-27 19:25:42 <BlueMatt> tcatm: I hate those things, trackpads are much more useful
2706 2011-06-27 19:25:53 <jrmithdobbs> plus the built binary
2707 2011-06-27 19:26:25 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: how hard is it to send an email which says "I want this file in bitcoin repo, can you confirm its licensed under MIT?
2708 2011-06-27 19:26:27 d1234 has joined
2709 2011-06-27 19:26:34 <tcatm> BlueMatt: recent thinkpads also have bigger trackpads and they work well with linux (check thinkwiki before buying one)
2710 2011-06-27 19:26:49 Raccoon` has joined
2711 2011-06-27 19:26:56 <BlueMatt> tcatm: nice, good link
2712 2011-06-27 19:27:08 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: considering i don't have his email it's annoying, not hard
2713 2011-06-27 19:27:21 <TD_> good evening
2714 2011-06-27 19:27:27 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: solar@helical...something
2715 2011-06-27 19:27:28 TD_ is now known as TD[home]
2716 2011-06-27 19:27:32 <jrmithdobbs> these guys?
2717 2011-06-27 19:27:33 <jrmithdobbs>     Laszlo Hanyecz <solar@heliacal.net>
2718 2011-06-27 19:27:33 <jrmithdobbs>     Denis Roio <jaromil@dyne.org>
2719 2011-06-27 19:27:43 <jrmithdobbs> they're credited in build-osx.txt i'm looking at
2720 2011-06-27 19:27:49 Tim-7967 has joined
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2722 2011-06-27 19:27:49 Tim-7967 has joined
2723 2011-06-27 19:27:49 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea laszlo
2724 2011-06-27 19:27:54 <BlueMatt> hes the one
2725 2011-06-27 19:28:04 <BlueMatt> hi TD
2726 2011-06-27 19:28:45 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: oh, as a side note, did you ever continue thinking about that fee-spiral problem solution thing you had?
2727 2011-06-27 19:29:09 <TD[home]> the assurance contracts?
2728 2011-06-27 19:29:15 <BlueMatt> yea, those
2729 2011-06-27 19:29:29 <TD[home]> sure
2730 2011-06-27 19:29:30 <TD[home]> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
2731 2011-06-27 19:29:33 <TD[home]> see example 3
2732 2011-06-27 19:29:40 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2733 2011-06-27 19:29:41 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
2734 2011-06-27 19:29:41 <TD[home]> i talked about it with a few people
2735 2011-06-27 19:29:54 <BlueMatt> oh, nice, what are the nay-sayers at google saying in response?
2736 2011-06-27 19:29:56 <TD[home]> some weren't convinced, they had some complicated game theory based reasoning why it wouldn't work. i didn't quite catch up with that yet.
2737 2011-06-27 19:30:08 <TD[home]> i had a chat with the guy who wrote the paper too, but he's travelling at the moment
2738 2011-06-27 19:30:11 <TD[home]> so he's sort of slow to respond
2739 2011-06-27 19:30:20 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2740 2011-06-27 19:30:25 <kerx> ouch amazon's down
2741 2011-06-27 19:30:43 <BlueMatt> kerx: holy shit
2742 2011-06-27 19:30:49 <kerx> oh, there they go, they back up
2743 2011-06-27 19:30:57 <kerx> BlueMatt, tell me about it
2744 2011-06-27 19:31:02 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2745 2011-06-27 19:31:03 <TD[home]> there are different ways to look at it.  stefan still thinks there's no need to worry
2746 2011-06-27 19:31:06 <BlueMatt> kerx: no, amazon.de isnt loading for me...wtf
2747 2011-06-27 19:31:12 <TD[home]> the good news is, one of the game theory guys is visiting zurich maybe in august :)
2748 2011-06-27 19:31:21 <TD[home]> so i want to pit them off against each other, haha
2749 2011-06-27 19:31:54 <kerx> BlueMatt, yea, the .com's down again for me... it's shaky.  i wonder if they are being attacked (possibly?)
2750 2011-06-27 19:31:55 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: Im still in the "it will sort itself out" camp, that said, I think this idea could actually work...also it can be done really efficiently in a pool environment
2751 2011-06-27 19:32:15 <BlueMatt> kerx: no idea, just really surprising...
2752 2011-06-27 19:32:37 <TD[home]> i think to some extent, it's more about convincing people who aren't certain :-) but honestly, i still see the whole thing as a big experiment.
2753 2011-06-27 19:32:45 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: though that could lead to a natural monopoly of a pool, which is a bad market structure...but its still an interesting idea
2754 2011-06-27 19:32:46 <TD[home]> if it does all go down the plug hole, it will still have been worth it
2755 2011-06-27 19:32:47 yebyen has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2756 2011-06-27 19:33:10 accel has quit (Quit: leaving)
2757 2011-06-27 19:33:11 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: absolutely
2758 2011-06-27 19:33:28 <sipa> yes, bitcoin as a whole is best regarded as a technological, sociological and economical experiment
2759 2011-06-27 19:34:19 <BlueMatt> (for now)
2760 2011-06-27 19:34:19 <BlueMatt> would be nice to see it grow out of that, but for the next number of years, it absolutely is
2761 2011-06-27 19:34:59 <TD[home]> if miners/insurance firms do end up creating distributed assurance contracts, that'd be kind of neat
2762 2011-06-27 19:35:13 <TD[home]> it'd be a very bitcoin-ish way to solve the problem
2763 2011-06-27 19:35:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: actually build-osx.txt specifically says MIT license, i'll confirm with an email though
2764 2011-06-27 19:36:54 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: yep, but if you actually have the time/the desire, you could set up a really cool pool which implements the contracts manually, with anyone creating contracts for any mining power and miners accepting what they want
2765 2011-06-27 19:37:04 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: would be a cool test of the idea
2766 2011-06-27 19:37:09 <BlueMatt> even if its not distributed
2767 2011-06-27 19:37:14 <b4epoche> hmm…  kickstarter-like thing with bitcoin?
2768 2011-06-27 19:37:19 Eremes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2769 2011-06-27 19:37:24 <TD[home]> b4epoche: yes
2770 2011-06-27 19:38:34 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: or convince [Tycho] or slush to do it
2771 2011-06-27 19:38:41 <BlueMatt> or any number of others
2772 2011-06-27 19:38:52 <TD[home]> i don't think it has to be done via a pool. it can be done purely with contracts.
2773 2011-06-27 19:38:57 <TD[home]> anyone could be the entrepreneur
2774 2011-06-27 19:39:11 <TD[home]> the outputs are connected to a set of transactions with lock times such that one transaction matures each block
2775 2011-06-27 19:39:13 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: well no, I was saying the pool is just the contract broker
2776 2011-06-27 19:39:14 <TD[home]> the transaction is pure fee
2777 2011-06-27 19:39:18 <TD[home]> ah ok
2778 2011-06-27 19:39:19 <b4epoche> once transactions are merged in the assurance contract example, how do you know the pedged coins are still there?
2779 2011-06-27 19:39:25 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: so anyone can still be the entrepreneur, but its not as distrubted
2780 2011-06-27 19:39:41 <BlueMatt> so really doesnt solve the underlying problem, but would provide a good test of the system
2781 2011-06-27 19:39:44 <TD[home]> b4epoche: just check. your node knows that, right
2782 2011-06-27 19:40:06 Eremes has joined
2783 2011-06-27 19:40:17 <b4epoche> ah, so you'd check to see if you had, say, 1000 BTC in /valid/ pledges
2784 2011-06-27 19:40:23 <TD[home]> yes
2785 2011-06-27 19:40:52 <denisx> btcguild now makes 3TH/s
2786 2011-06-27 19:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: btw once this Info.plist gets added there's a version string (actually two) that needs to be bumped on releases
2787 2011-06-27 19:41:17 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
2788 2011-06-27 19:41:18 <gribble> 11028.817519132537
2789 2011-06-27 19:41:37 <sipa> info.plist?
2790 2011-06-27 19:41:47 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: OSX app bundle related
2791 2011-06-27 19:41:55 <sipa> ok
2792 2011-06-27 19:42:18 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ok, it needs added to that release-process.txt file then too if you dont mind
2793 2011-06-27 19:42:46 conjre has joined
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2795 2011-06-27 19:43:05 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: should i try (fail) to hook the dir creation into autotools or just create the static dir structure under contrib/
2796 2011-06-27 19:43:11 mtrlt_ is now known as mtrlt
2797 2011-06-27 19:43:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: just create static dir structure for now, dont bother with autotools imo
2798 2011-06-27 19:43:34 <BlueMatt> it needs a lot of work...
2799 2011-06-27 19:43:53 wasabi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2800 2011-06-27 19:44:01 <jrmithdobbs> hmm, the generated distclean target doesn't remove autoconf output
2801 2011-06-27 19:44:14 [Author] has quit (Quit: [Author])
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2814 2011-06-27 19:53:16 <diki> what does OUTPUT_SIZE = 0x40 in phoenix do?
2815 2011-06-27 19:53:23 <diki> it's in the kernel files
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2818 2011-06-27 19:55:35 <coderrr> gmaxwell, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA_O6Boi7Xo
2819 2011-06-27 19:56:38 <gmaxwell> coderrr: cool, now also discover and track the preexisting linkages. :)
2820 2011-06-27 19:56:49 <coderrr> it does
2821 2011-06-27 19:57:02 <gmaxwell> Oh is that the indenting? that wasn't super clear to me.
2822 2011-06-27 19:57:10 <gmaxwell> Excellent. Is there RPC to get the same functionality?
2823 2011-06-27 19:57:16 <coderrr> nah, no rpc :/
2824 2011-06-27 19:57:20 <gmaxwell> Aww.
2825 2011-06-27 19:57:34 <coderrr> ill add that to the next one i guess
2826 2011-06-27 19:57:36 Nexus79 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2827 2011-06-27 19:58:09 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r114 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java: Remove transactions from the dead pool when they become live, and from pending when they become dead. Addresses comments from Miron.
2828 2011-06-27 19:58:11 <earthmeLon> How does one go from the output of getaccountaddress to a TRUE bitcoind address?
2829 2011-06-27 19:58:58 <jgarzik> earthmeLon: an odd question :)  getaccountaddress returns a valid bitcoin address
2830 2011-06-27 19:59:01 <b4epoche> coderrr: did you need to mod anything outside of ui.cpp to do that?
2831 2011-06-27 19:59:11 <earthmeLon> I am being told elsewhere that that is not true, jgarzik
2832 2011-06-27 19:59:26 <coderrr> b4epoche, yea a few lines in SelectMinConfCoins
2833 2011-06-27 19:59:32 <earthmeLon> This is my problem jgarzik :  I am trying to find my txion history on blockexplorer
2834 2011-06-27 19:59:33 <coderrr> jsut for the guard to skip coins that werent selected
2835 2011-06-27 19:59:49 <earthmeLon> jgarzik, I searched for my address, which I retrieved from that command
2836 2011-06-27 19:59:53 <earthmeLon> jgarzik, Nothing listed
2837 2011-06-27 19:59:58 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2838 2011-06-27 19:59:59 nhodges is now known as earthleMon
2839 2011-06-27 20:00:04 <coderrr> b4epoche, https://github.com/coderrr/bitcoin/commit/9376bcbaf7796f7fcf5e7f9976d3d42917507c63
2840 2011-06-27 20:00:21 <earthmeLon> jgarzik, So I looked up my txion list.  It has another address, which does have a history on blockexplorer.  What do I not understand about this
2841 2011-06-27 20:00:53 <jgarzik> earthleMon: bitcoin addresses do not appear on blockexplorer (and in block chain) until you actually use them
2842 2011-06-27 20:01:06 <jgarzik> earthleMon: you can create 1,000,000 bitcoin addresses without touching the network
2843 2011-06-27 20:01:15 * gmaxwell bbl
2844 2011-06-27 20:01:17 <earthmeLon> Why is nhodges such a douchebag
2845 2011-06-27 20:01:53 rasengan has joined
2846 2011-06-27 20:02:00 <earthmeLon> jgarzik, I gave my pool the output from getaccountaddress.  I've been receiving funds for three weeks now.  All are "CONFIRMED"
2847 2011-06-27 20:02:13 <earthmeLon> When I look up that address on blockexplorer, NOTHING is listed
2848 2011-06-27 20:02:31 <earthmeLon> When I look up my txion history, a DIFFERENT account is being sent funds than the output of getaccountaddress
2849 2011-06-27 20:02:44 <earthmeLon> though, that account contains the funds localy
2850 2011-06-27 20:02:47 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2851 2011-06-27 20:02:48 <earthmeLon> I am very confused by all of this
2852 2011-06-27 20:03:04 <sipa> one tip: forget accounts
2853 2011-06-27 20:03:09 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2854 2011-06-27 20:03:19 <sipa> they do not do what you think they do
2855 2011-06-27 20:03:25 <coderrr> discovered boost::lambda, that was fun
2856 2011-06-27 20:03:29 <earthmeLon> So, back to my original question
2857 2011-06-27 20:03:33 <gmaxwell> earthmeLon: the address that funds were sent to is the address the party sent them to, end of story.
2858 2011-06-27 20:03:36 <earthmeLon> How does one go from the output of getaccountaddress to a TRUE bitcoind address?
2859 2011-06-27 20:03:45 micha__ has joined
2860 2011-06-27 20:03:47 <gmaxwell> That _is_ a true bitcoin address.
2861 2011-06-27 20:04:25 <earthmeLon> Then why, when I ask to be sent funds using that account, are they being sent to a different account, yet I have the funds in that account?
2862 2011-06-27 20:04:31 <gmaxwell> earthmeLon: do you perhaps want getaddressesbyaccount "accountname" ?
2863 2011-06-27 20:04:38 d1234_ has joined
2864 2011-06-27 20:04:44 <earthmeLon> THANK YOU gmaxwell
2865 2011-06-27 20:04:45 <earthmeLon> Thank you
2866 2011-06-27 20:05:00 <gmaxwell> That shows all the addresses connected to an account.
2867 2011-06-27 20:05:10 <gmaxwell> If you send funds to _any_ of those addresses they'll end up in that account.
2868 2011-06-27 20:05:32 <b4epoche> yea, coderrr, saw that extra include...
2869 2011-06-27 20:05:50 <b4epoche> thought things were moving away from boost ;-)
2870 2011-06-27 20:06:35 <gmaxwell> coderrr: can you multiselect the sources there?
2871 2011-06-27 20:06:42 <coderrr> gmaxwell, yes, ctrl click
2872 2011-06-27 20:06:52 micha_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2873 2011-06-27 20:06:58 <coderrr> it puts them in the send field separated by semicolons
2874 2011-06-27 20:07:10 <coderrr> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23354.0 desc there
2875 2011-06-27 20:07:15 d1234 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2877 2011-06-27 20:08:18 <gmaxwell> I feel like the UI should have some advanced tab that burries things like this a bit. It's neat and should be available, but it's going to confuse people. :)
2878 2011-06-27 20:08:28 * gmaxwell lunch &
2879 2011-06-27 20:08:32 <coderrr> i agree
2880 2011-06-27 20:08:36 bk128 has joined
2881 2011-06-27 20:08:42 <coderrr> if it were even in the official client it should be hidden away
2882 2011-06-27 20:08:47 <coderrr> ever*
2883 2011-06-27 20:09:02 <coderrr> but until that happens, i dont think its an issue :p
2884 2011-06-27 20:10:42 <b4epoche> when did sendFromAddress(es) get added?
2885 2011-06-27 20:10:43 <justmoon> gmaxwell: query
2886 2011-06-27 20:10:52 <b4epoche> I don't see that in the core code I'm using
2887 2011-06-27 20:10:52 gregnotcraig has joined
2888 2011-06-27 20:11:19 <coderrr> b4epoche, yea I added that
2889 2011-06-27 20:11:27 <b4epoche> ah, okay...
2890 2011-06-27 20:11:33 <coderrr> as a quick hack to communicate between ui and main
2891 2011-06-27 20:11:46 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ok got this cleaned up and fixed build-osx.txt to be accurate to a) github code location and b) bundle building
2892 2011-06-27 20:11:54 dedeibel has joined
2893 2011-06-27 20:12:09 * b4epoche is trying not to mod core code
2894 2011-06-27 20:12:14 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: also fixed the inconsistant word wrapping and replaced \t's with expandtab'ed double spaces per coding guidelines
2895 2011-06-27 20:12:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's going to need the changes in the autotools tree merged if/when autotools happens.
2896 2011-06-27 20:12:39 <earthmeLon> Any reason why this txion is listed as THREE separate things?  http://ittyb.it/ud0f77b81 ?
2897 2011-06-27 20:14:13 <coderrr> earthmeLon, cuz a coin isnt an address, its an output of a tx, so taht address received at least 3 previous tx outputs
2898 2011-06-27 20:14:57 xtalmath has joined
2899 2011-06-27 20:15:19 <earthmeLon> Ahh, I am just misreading this information coderrr .  So the highlighted output is the transaction.  Cool cool
2900 2011-06-27 20:15:48 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: nice, awaiting your pull req...or I suppose laszlo's response first
2901 2011-06-27 20:16:13 <dinox> If I have a raw (valid) tx and want to broadcast it, what is the easiest way?
2902 2011-06-27 20:17:14 lumos is now known as dr_lumos
2903 2011-06-27 20:18:45 earthleMon is now known as nhodges
2904 2011-06-27 20:19:43 Sebastan has left ()
2905 2011-06-27 20:19:50 <dinox> hmm, I'll answer that myself and go with bitcoinj
2906 2011-06-27 20:19:56 <eamon> so, eh why did they shut down clear coin, i mean bitcoin works, it doesn't need any more development. wtf like
2907 2011-06-27 20:19:59 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2908 2011-06-27 20:20:02 <jrmithdobbs> I'll put in the pull, i cleaned up some other build-osx.txt stuff that I'm writing up an explanation for real quick.
2909 2011-06-27 20:20:55 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: #357
2910 2011-06-27 20:23:20 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2912 2011-06-27 20:27:42 <justmoon> eamon: gavin shut it down because he doesn't have enough time for it right now - there is another escrow, I forgot the name...
2913 2011-06-27 20:27:52 <justmoon> I'm sure more people are going to get into escrow shortly
2914 2011-06-27 20:28:37 * jgarzik spies a justmoon :)
2915 2011-06-27 20:28:47 <eamon> clearcoin was cool cause it was free. There is BTCrow which costs 2% and it's written in bad pigeon english.
2916 2011-06-27 20:28:52 Nachtwind has joined
2917 2011-06-27 20:28:58 <Nachtwind> hi
2918 2011-06-27 20:29:07 <jgarzik> justmoon: have you been keeping up with the forum switch email?  sounds like sirius is moving the forum away from bitcoin.org
2919 2011-06-27 20:29:22 <justmoon> yep, sounds like it
2920 2011-06-27 20:29:35 <eamon> some mad astronomy themed nicks going on here
2921 2011-06-27 20:29:40 <Nachtwind> is there someone who knows a bit about the phatk kernel? Had my first look today at its code and would have a few quatesions about it
2922 2011-06-27 20:29:49 eamon is now known as ursamajor
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2924 2011-06-27 20:30:32 ursamajor is now known as sol
2925 2011-06-27 20:30:33 <jgarzik> Nachtwind: #bitcoin-mining probably better place to ask
2926 2011-06-27 20:30:43 <Nachtwind> ok, thanks
2927 2011-06-27 20:31:07 sol is now known as Guest98337
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2929 2011-06-27 20:31:09 Nachtwind has left ()
2930 2011-06-27 20:31:17 <justmoon> jgarzik: I didn't reply on the list in that respect, but I was going to reject the idea of starting a new forum for businesses - I'm not sure there is a demand for that
2931 2011-06-27 20:31:57 <justmoon> also, providing a domain is one thing, but starting a brand-new forum - if I'm honest I don't have enough time to do that
2932 2011-06-27 20:32:05 <justmoon> so I'm happy with the solution as it is
2933 2011-06-27 20:32:17 betcoin has joined
2934 2011-06-27 20:32:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8baf865 / (8 files in 3 dirs):
2935 2011-06-27 20:32:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Boost unit-testing framework.
2936 2011-06-27 20:32:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: make -f makefile.{unix,osx,mingw} test_bitcoin
2937 2011-06-27 20:32:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: to compile dumb, do-almost-nothing placeholder unit tests. - http://bit.ly/m03Ytz
2938 2011-06-27 20:32:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r8111e27 / (8 files in 3 dirs):
2939 2011-06-27 20:32:19 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #356 from gavinandresen/unitTest
2940 2011-06-27 20:32:20 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Boost unit-testing framework. Thanks to Steve (gasteve in irc) for original code. - http://bit.ly/muXgmP
2941 2011-06-27 20:32:25 <jgarzik> justmoon: well not "for businesses" so much as being more friendly to newcomers and new businesses
2942 2011-06-27 20:32:36 <betcoin> Promotion: http://betcoin.eu Give it a try!
2943 2011-06-27 20:32:54 <Guest98337> betcoin: no advertising on freenode
2944 2011-06-27 20:32:56 betcoin has quit (Client Quit)
2945 2011-06-27 20:32:56 <justmoon> jgarzik: I think separate subforums on a single forum serves that better, no?
2946 2011-06-27 20:33:02 <justmoon> don't know
2947 2011-06-27 20:33:03 <TD[home]> justmoon: sup
2948 2011-06-27 20:33:13 <jgarzik> justmoon: the current forum is pretty much (a) unusable to most, (b) unfriendly and (c) full of illegal shit
2949 2011-06-27 20:33:14 <justmoon> maybe someone will start a new forum and it'll be great, but I just don't see it
2950 2011-06-27 20:33:16 <justmoon> hey mike!
2951 2011-06-27 20:33:27 <justmoon> I gave you multiple shoutouts on Bruce's show today :)
2952 2011-06-27 20:33:36 <TD[home]> oh, cool
2953 2011-06-27 20:33:37 <TD[home]> what show?
2954 2011-06-27 20:33:39 Sedra has joined
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2956 2011-06-27 20:33:50 <justmoon> jgarzik: I disagree on all three counts, except maybe the second :)
2957 2011-06-27 20:33:56 <justmoon> TD: OnlyOneTV.com
2958 2011-06-27 20:33:59 <justmoon> it's not up yet
2959 2011-06-27 20:34:03 <TD[home]> jgarzik: it's getting better. the worst stuff has been deleted. sirius posted "new rules" saying moderation had been too loose and the mods were instructed to tighten it up.
2960 2011-06-27 20:34:07 dbasch has joined
2961 2011-06-27 20:34:08 <TD[home]> jgarzik: but the move will still help
2962 2011-06-27 20:34:11 <justmoon> it was broadcast live just a few hours ago
2963 2011-06-27 20:34:26 <TD[home]> famous at last.
2964 2011-06-27 20:34:35 <justmoon> jgarzik, did joe contact you?
2965 2011-06-27 20:34:59 <justmoon> TD: yeah, getting your bs recorded for all eternity is great :|
2966 2011-06-27 20:35:02 <Optimo> close the forum!
2967 2011-06-27 20:35:07 <jgarzik> justmoon: Joe @ FT?  yes
2968 2011-06-27 20:35:17 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
2969 2011-06-27 20:35:20 sbasuita has left ()
2970 2011-06-27 20:35:40 <jgarzik> TD[home]: main mods theymos and Atlas are pro-illegal-stuff :(
2971 2011-06-27 20:35:51 Guest98337 is now known as eamon
2972 2011-06-27 20:35:58 <dinox> Oh my god, I think I just fell in love with bitcoinj
2973 2011-06-27 20:36:02 <justmoon> jgarzik, what your opinion of that approach? somebody taking the initial call and sending people on to specialists when it comes to certain subjects
2974 2011-06-27 20:36:20 <justmoon> like I've been sending journalists to Jon for economic financial stuff, to mark/adam for mtgox stuff etc.
2975 2011-06-27 20:36:43 fnord0 has joined
2976 2011-06-27 20:36:50 <justmoon> otherwise, I'd just stay out of the press list, because I'm neither a core developer, nor involved with any of the businesses
2977 2011-06-27 20:36:54 <jgarzik> justmoon: no objections
2978 2011-06-27 20:36:54 <Optimo> dinox: revelations?
2979 2011-06-27 20:36:58 <justmoon> k
2980 2011-06-27 20:37:06 <TD[home]> well, atlas is an idiot, and i'd characterise theymos as more being "free speech at any cost" rather than "pro illegal"
2981 2011-06-27 20:37:19 <jgarzik> justmoon: I'm a bit leery of Jon Matonis, who seems a bit too eager to use bitcoin as his personal anonymity crusade.  gavinandresen likes him, though :)
2982 2011-06-27 20:37:40 <jgarzik> TD[home]: agree
2983 2011-06-27 20:37:48 <TD[home]> but yeah. this is going to be an ongoing source of tension. fortunately sirius is somewhere in the middle
2984 2011-06-27 20:37:51 <jgarzik> though that is the net result of theymos' "free speech at any cost" policy
2985 2011-06-27 20:37:53 <justmoon> jgarzik, yeah, he lives like half an hour from here but I haven't had a chance to meet him
2986 2011-06-27 20:37:58 <TD[home]> yeah
2987 2011-06-27 20:38:05 <justmoon> jgarzik, he's going to come to the meetup in september he said
2988 2011-06-27 20:38:19 <jrmithdobbs> i say kill the forums completely. the only portion that isn't 99% noise is the dev forum and that should all be going to the new list anyways.
2989 2011-06-27 20:38:39 <jgarzik> justmoon: is there a con/meetup that most people are going to?  I could get away for one, but not a bunch of expensive travel...
2990 2011-06-27 20:38:40 <Optimo> +1
2991 2011-06-27 20:39:00 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: well part of the plan is to remove link from bitcoin.org main page, I think
2992 2011-06-27 20:39:11 <justmoon> jgarzik, well, we're doing tiny somewhat regular meetups here in switzerland
2993 2011-06-27 20:39:14 <jgarzik> make the forum "less official"
2994 2011-06-27 20:39:22 <justmoon> jgarzik, are you going to bruce's conference in new york august?
2995 2011-06-27 20:39:28 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: and stop requesting post creation in pulls, yes? ;p
2996 2011-06-27 20:39:34 <justmoon> gavin will be there and I'm considering making the trip
2997 2011-06-27 20:39:40 <jgarzik> justmoon: that's what I'm trying to figure out right now...
2998 2011-06-27 20:39:51 <jgarzik> justmoon: my wife would probably prefer visiting the Swiss ;-)
2999 2011-06-27 20:39:59 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: as in, i would like to never visit that forum again.
3000 2011-06-27 20:40:01 <justmoon> hey you're welcome here always!!! :)
3001 2011-06-27 20:40:09 <jgarzik> we have relatives in Croatia and France that we need to visit, too
3002 2011-06-27 20:40:23 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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3004 2011-06-27 20:40:25 <TD[home]> yeah it'd be great to have you visit here!
3005 2011-06-27 20:40:37 <justmoon> hell yeah :D
3006 2011-06-27 20:40:45 <jgarzik> getting "across the pond" with a 1.5yo baby is the big step.  jumping country to country from there is easy :)
3007 2011-06-27 20:41:20 <justmoon> hehe, europe is tiny compared to the us :)
3008 2011-06-27 20:41:29 nhodges has joined
3009 2011-06-27 20:41:29 b4epoche_ has joined
3010 2011-06-27 20:41:39 <jgarzik> I like visiting Europe.  Great beer, there :)  Never visited Switzerland though.
3011 2011-06-27 20:41:59 <justmoon> where have you been so far?
3012 2011-06-27 20:42:15 <BlueMatt> we need to have a northern nc bitcoin meetup when I move out there in august jgarzik ;)
3013 2011-06-27 20:42:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I'm up for that :)
3014 2011-06-27 20:42:51 <jgarzik> justmoon: fr/gb/de/croatia
3015 2011-06-27 20:43:00 <jgarzik> es
3016 2011-06-27 20:43:11 <sipa> nc ?
3017 2011-06-27 20:43:18 <justmoon> ok so imagine french food with german mentality and more mountains :)
3018 2011-06-27 20:43:25 <justmoon> did I get that about right, TD?
3019 2011-06-27 20:43:30 <jgarzik> sipa: North Carolina, state (province) in USA where I live
3020 2011-06-27 20:43:38 <sipa> right, of course
3021 2011-06-27 20:43:42 <jgarzik> justmoon: I like mountains and castles :)
3022 2011-06-27 20:43:50 <jgarzik> schloss, I think they are called?
3023 2011-06-27 20:43:53 dbasch has joined
3024 2011-06-27 20:44:02 <justmoon> yep, correct :)
3025 2011-06-27 20:44:02 <copumpkin> anyone in boston around here?
3026 2011-06-27 20:44:28 <BlueMatt> justmoon: so why the hell have I been living in germany? ;)
3027 2011-06-27 20:44:50 <sipa> how did you end up there, BlueMatt?
3028 2011-06-27 20:44:52 <sipa> in .de
3029 2011-06-27 20:44:57 <justmoon> BlueMatt, you tell me?! :)
3030 2011-06-27 20:45:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: parents...you guys seem to often forget I just got out of hs... :)
3031 2011-06-27 20:45:22 dbasch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3032 2011-06-27 20:45:29 dbasch has joined
3033 2011-06-27 20:45:32 <sipa> right, that should have been the obvious guess :)
3034 2011-06-27 20:45:40 <TD[home]> justmoon: yeah pretty much :)
3035 2011-06-27 20:45:49 <justmoon> BlueMatt, fresh out of high school and already designing the future global currency system, nice ;)
3036 2011-06-27 20:46:17 <dinox> Optimo: I like the nice commented code and one file for each class makes it supereasy to find what you want
3037 2011-06-27 20:46:22 <TD[home]> BlueMatt: the thought of what you might have achieved by 30 terrifies me ;)
3038 2011-06-27 20:46:38 <TD[home]> dinox: thanks. i'm about to announce bitcoinj v0.2 actually
3039 2011-06-27 20:46:48 <justmoon> ok, I need to grab something to eat! check out the show @onlyonetv.com (whenever they upload it, should be ep #13) and email your complaints/corrections to info@weusecoins.com :)
3040 2011-06-27 20:46:50 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: I sure hope so...hell maybe someday Ill end up at google...
3041 2011-06-27 20:46:54 <b4epoche> no college for BlueMatt?
3042 2011-06-27 20:47:06 <Optimo> dinox: oh yeah that is refreshing, TD made it I think
3043 2011-06-27 20:47:12 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: of course, hence why Im moving out to north carolina in the spring
3044 2011-06-27 20:47:17 <Optimo> doh ninja'd
3045 2011-06-27 20:47:21 <BlueMatt> (UNC Chapel Hill)
3046 2011-06-27 20:47:36 <b4epoche> you from NC originally?
3047 2011-06-27 20:47:38 * jgarzik receives an urgent text message from the wife: "switzerland is ok by me" :)
3048 2011-06-27 20:47:48 <TD[home]> hah
3049 2011-06-27 20:47:53 <BlueMatt> originally Charlotte, but currently frankfurt...
3050 2011-06-27 20:47:58 <TD[home]> BlueMatt: well you got off to a great start
3051 2011-06-27 20:48:04 * sipa checks google maps for distance to switzerland by car
3052 2011-06-27 20:48:04 marioxcc has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
3053 2011-06-27 20:48:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well if you were doing it earlier you could have just done a bitcoin developer tour from sipa to me to TD...
3054 2011-06-27 20:49:00 <jgarzik> hehe
3055 2011-06-27 20:49:00 <b4epoche> UNC Charlotte not good enough for you ;-)
3056 2011-06-27 20:49:01 <BlueMatt> though I suppose its not like theres much to see in frankfurt anyway...
3057 2011-06-27 20:49:18 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: no UNC Chapel Hill not Charlotte, thats just the city Im originally from
3058 2011-06-27 20:49:22 <b4epoche> head down to Darmstadt
3059 2011-06-27 20:49:38 <jgarzik> UNC-Ch is right around the corner, cool :)
3060 2011-06-27 20:49:52 <bmwiedemann> BlueMatt: I thought there were all the banks with a lot of money in Frankfurt
3061 2011-06-27 20:49:56 <BlueMatt> considered that, but though my german is ok, its not quite good enough to learn cs in german...
3062 2011-06-27 20:50:01 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  UNC Chapel Hill >> UNC Charlotte, no?
3063 2011-06-27 20:50:06 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea
3064 2011-06-27 20:50:22 <BlueMatt> bmwiedemann: yep, but they arent much to see, unless you want to try to convince them to take bitcoin...
3065 2011-06-27 20:50:47 <zamgo> UNC!
3066 2011-06-27 20:50:51 <zamgo> sunsite
3067 2011-06-27 20:50:56 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you are at the redhat place near nc state right?
3068 2011-06-27 20:50:59 <zamgo> the original
3069 2011-06-27 20:51:05 <vegard> b4epoche: I'm moving to Darmstadt in 3 days :)
3070 2011-06-27 20:51:22 <bmwiedemann> BlueMatt: would be fun. vaults full of bits instead of gold.
3071 2011-06-27 20:51:28 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes
3072 2011-06-27 20:51:30 erus`_ has joined
3073 2011-06-27 20:51:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: -on- NC State campus, in fact
3074 2011-06-27 20:51:50 <b4epoche> one of my former students was a prof at UNC-Charlotte for a while…  hence my poor impression of the place ;-)
3075 2011-06-27 20:52:03 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ah, thats right, I toured the campus there a couple years ago before I moved across the pond, nice place
3076 2011-06-27 20:52:24 <BlueMatt> bmwiedemann: they already are...
3077 2011-06-27 20:52:30 <BlueMatt> just slightly different bits
3078 2011-06-27 20:52:59 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3079 2011-06-27 20:52:59 <zapnap> jgarzik: any pointers for getting pushpool working on os x? running into the byteswap/endian issues (opened an issue). if you don't want to address, not an issue. just thought i'd ask :)
3080 2011-06-27 20:53:08 erus`_ is now known as erus`
3081 2011-06-27 20:53:32 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea UNCC is an ok school, not particularly great
3082 2011-06-27 20:53:39 <jgarzik> zapnap: look at cpuminer, it had (and solved) the same issues
3083 2011-06-27 20:53:48 <zapnap> jgarzik: will do, thnx!
3084 2011-06-27 20:53:57 <jgarzik> zapnap: just need to port those changes over, but it is a low priority for me ATM, unfortunatley
3085 2011-06-27 20:54:02 <b4epoche> UNC-CH doesn't have engineering, right?
3086 2011-06-27 20:54:02 <jgarzik> zapnap: patches appreciated :)
3087 2011-06-27 20:54:16 <zapnap> jgarzik: no doubt :) i'm not much of a C hacker (at least, not these days) but i'll give it a shot
3088 2011-06-27 20:54:18 <jgarzik> b4epoche: UNC-CH is for namby namby liberal arts majors
3089 2011-06-27 20:54:24 <jgarzik> namby pamby
3090 2011-06-27 20:54:34 * zapnap got lazy
3091 2011-06-27 20:54:40 <b4epoche> yea, that's what I thought jgarzik
3092 2011-06-27 20:54:55 <b4epoche> Duke ft(engineering)w
3093 2011-06-27 20:55:06 <zapnap> also, thanks. this is great stuff.
3094 2011-06-27 20:55:23 istat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3095 2011-06-27 20:56:03 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
3096 2011-06-27 20:56:04 <gribble> 1379223.4296725
3097 2011-06-27 20:56:20 conjre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3098 2011-06-27 20:56:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hey, fu
3099 2011-06-27 20:56:50 <jgarzik> hehehe
3100 2011-06-27 20:56:53 <zapnap> ah this is perfect
3101 2011-06-27 20:56:54 conjre has joined
3102 2011-06-27 20:57:19 <b4epoche> but y'all should come to PennState and live in the middle of nowhere...
3103 2011-06-27 20:57:27 <zapnap> btw, if anyone is interested, i've started a json-rpc wrapper lib project in the form of a ruby gem... http://github.com/zapnap/bitbank
3104 2011-06-27 20:57:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: they dont have engineering but do have a good comp sci school. Its small, so you can get to learn all your profs really well, small classes, and hell if you want a class taught that isnt, you can ask and they will...get that at your huge engineering school
3105 2011-06-27 20:58:06 bmwiedemann has left ()
3106 2011-06-27 20:58:19 <BlueMatt> s/school/dept
3107 2011-06-27 20:59:08 nanook7 has joined
3108 2011-06-27 20:59:12 <b4epoche> big fish in small pond is really a small fish ;-)
3109 2011-06-27 20:59:25 <b4epoche> that thinks it's big
3110 2011-06-27 20:59:44 <BlueMatt> not if the small pond is regarded fairly highly by big fish in huge ponds elsewhere ;)
3111 2011-06-27 21:00:01 <b4epoche> I know…  I'm just teasing you.
3112 2011-06-27 21:00:08 <BlueMatt> I know
3113 2011-06-27 21:00:09 <b4epoche> seems like a good place to be actually
3114 2011-06-27 21:00:44 <BlueMatt> anyway, Ive got to go...if anyone has time, more comments on new wallet encryption would be nice :)
3115 2011-06-27 21:00:49 <b4epoche> but, hey, PennState has an entire IST /college/...
3116 2011-06-27 21:00:52 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3117 2011-06-27 21:01:06 <zamgo> is there any documentation on -safemode?
3118 2011-06-27 21:02:29 Mononofu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3119 2011-06-27 21:02:42 <zamgo> or should I say... -disablesafemode
3120 2011-06-27 21:03:48 <agath> zapnap: there are already several rubygems of json-rpc wrappers. In what your is better?
3121 2011-06-27 21:03:50 mtve has joined
3122 2011-06-27 21:04:54 <zapnap> agath: i'd started hacking on one of them to add missing features, but was tearing all the tests out to replace with actual response fixture data instead of stubbing, and at that point realized i might as well start from scratch
3123 2011-06-27 21:05:09 <zapnap> so i guess the short answer is it feels a bit more ... robust?
3124 2011-06-27 21:05:18 <zapnap> to me, anyway :) ymmv.
3125 2011-06-27 21:05:21 <agath> ok I will take a look at hit, then :-)
3126 2011-06-27 21:05:32 <zapnap> agath: choice is good, too :)
3127 2011-06-27 21:06:25 <zapnap> it doesn't encapsulate 100% of the api yet, but getting there. i've tried to design it to be easy to use standalone, instead of just being a wrapper (treating acounts and transactions as first class citizens with proper methods instead of just the equivalent json method call)
3128 2011-06-27 21:06:28 <agath> (i was meaning "it" not "hit" ... I am tired :-) )
3129 2011-06-27 21:06:54 Nicksasa is now known as BBL!~Nicksasa@178-117-214-24.access.telenet.be|Nicksasa
3130 2011-06-27 21:09:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: It doesn't seem like you've pushed the changes since the discussion earlier?
3131 2011-06-27 21:09:48 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3132 2011-06-27 21:09:57 abragin has quit ()
3133 2011-06-27 21:10:20 TheSeven has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
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3135 2011-06-27 21:10:41 dr_lumos is now known as lumos
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3137 2011-06-27 21:11:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you mean nDerivationMethod, yea its in crypter.h
3138 2011-06-27 21:12:22 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3143 2011-06-27 21:13:09 erus`_ has joined
3144 2011-06-27 21:13:14 <zapnap> so... trying to build from source... getting a "possibly undefined macro: AC_MSG_ERROR" when running autogen
3145 2011-06-27 21:13:17 <zapnap> any ideas?
3146 2011-06-27 21:13:35 eternal1 has joined
3147 2011-06-27 21:13:40 <sipa> you're trying to compile the autotools branch?
3148 2011-06-27 21:13:44 erus`_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3149 2011-06-27 21:14:02 <jgarzik> zapnap: use the release tarball, your autoconf install in your OS isn't complete and up to date
3150 2011-06-27 21:14:17 <jgarzik> sipa: probably pushpool
3151 2011-06-27 21:14:22 <sipa> oh right
3152 2011-06-27 21:14:23 <zapnap> sipa: yes, sorry, pushpool
3153 2011-06-27 21:14:27 <zapnap> my bad. should have been clear
3154 2011-06-27 21:14:33 <jgarzik> sipa: autotools branch of bitcoin doesn't have an autogen (but needs one!)
3155 2011-06-27 21:14:35 <zapnap> jgarzik: i was trying to use latest master so i could submit a proper patch
3156 2011-06-27 21:14:44 erus`_ has joined
3157 2011-06-27 21:14:54 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3158 2011-06-27 21:14:55 <sipa> what's autogen supposed to do, call autoreconf and such?
3159 2011-06-27 21:14:58 erus`_ is now known as erus`
3160 2011-06-27 21:16:06 <jgarzik> sipa: https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool/blob/master/autogen.sh
3161 2011-06-27 21:16:15 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thoughts on a matching call to keypoolsize to fill the keypool to a requested size (and set the fill target)?  Not something that needs to be done now, but you might want to set aside the storage for it.
3162 2011-06-27 21:16:31 <jgarzik> sipa: I never use autoreconf, and IMO my regenerate-everything method tends to be more reliable.
3163 2011-06-27 21:16:46 <sipa> ok
3164 2011-06-27 21:16:47 <jaromil> hi
3165 2011-06-27 21:17:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: rationale being that 100 is not enough addresses for a rx mostly ecommerce site, even assuming the opeator will have it email them whn it runs low.
3166 2011-06-27 21:17:04 <jaromil> anyone can give me a recap on the autotools pull req status?
3167 2011-06-27 21:17:15 <jaromil> i was away the weekend and now reading comments as of today
3168 2011-06-27 21:17:19 <zapnap> jgarzik: for patching purposes, i guess it doesn't matter much. but i wonder if i should source-build and install autoconf to get something compliant? ahck
3169 2011-06-27 21:17:21 nanook7 has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
3170 2011-06-27 21:17:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh thanks for reminding me, I was gonna add that parameter to keypoolfill [amount] to fill to [amount]
3171 2011-06-27 21:17:24 <jgarzik> jaromil: read the pull request...
3172 2011-06-27 21:17:33 <jaromil> done that. no details.
3173 2011-06-27 21:17:39 <jaromil> at least, not from you
3174 2011-06-27 21:17:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Great. Exactly.
3175 2011-06-27 21:17:50 <jaromil> i read blumatt reporting some things missing, not which
3176 2011-06-27 21:17:59 <jaromil> so i'm asking a recap
3177 2011-06-27 21:18:00 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: is bitcoinsharp a thin client or full db client?
3178 2011-06-27 21:18:01 <gmaxwell> (maybe it should save that amount and keep targeting it, I think thats less important)
3179 2011-06-27 21:18:05 <jgarzik> zapnap: I dunno much about regenerating autotools stuff on OSX, TBH
3180 2011-06-27 21:18:06 <TD[home]> it's the same as bitcoinj
3181 2011-06-27 21:18:10 <TD[home]> thin client
3182 2011-06-27 21:18:20 <TD[home]> though i think some people want to extend them into being full clients at some point
3183 2011-06-27 21:18:33 <zapnap> jgarzik: the configure script you include in the release seems to work fine, fwiw.
3184 2011-06-27 21:18:34 <sipa> jgarzik: i sent you a bug reported here using ;;tell later
3185 2011-06-27 21:18:37 <zapnap> (on os x)
3186 2011-06-27 21:18:41 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3187 2011-06-27 21:19:26 <TD[home]> BlueMatt: for this release i wrote up a doc on the difference between full and lite modes
3188 2011-06-27 21:19:34 <TD[home]> the security models
3189 2011-06-27 21:19:51 <BlueMatt> jaromil: the mingw work I did a couple weeks back which I pushed in my branch and has been overwritten (stupid me)...
3190 2011-06-27 21:20:03 <BlueMatt> jaromil: you said you had pulled that, but its not in your branch and doesnt work
3191 2011-06-27 21:20:24 <BlueMatt> TD[home]: ah, ok nice...I suppose no one but pools at this point needs full clients...
3192 2011-06-27 21:20:35 <gmaxwell> nit: +            "amounts are double-precision floating point numbers\n"  is inconsistent language with +            "<amount> is a real and is rounded to the nearest 0.00000001\n"
3193 2011-06-27 21:20:36 <jaromil> BlueMatt: so you are stating the "mingw work" is missing? i recall they were just few lines.
3194 2011-06-27 21:20:38 <TD[home]> well, miners
3195 2011-06-27 21:20:41 nanook7 has joined
3196 2011-06-27 21:20:43 <TD[home]> it helps for merchants too
3197 2011-06-27 21:21:03 <jaromil> missing from the current pull req and for your fault overwritten out of your branch?
3198 2011-06-27 21:21:23 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yea it was something like 10 lines minor, but took a good bit of debugging to figure out
3199 2011-06-27 21:21:40 <BlueMatt> jaromil: and you had said you had merged them into yours, so I git reset jaromil/autotools3 and poof
3200 2011-06-27 21:21:49 BitcoinForNewegg has joined
3201 2011-06-27 21:21:52 <jaromil> i have various dirs here i could look for that. yes i hat merged them
3202 2011-06-27 21:22:07 <jaromil> what else? i read osx probs
3203 2011-06-27 21:22:19 Transformer has joined
3204 2011-06-27 21:22:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: So... I'm not generally in favor of password quality restrictions. But letting people set passwords smaller than 7 characters or so is just pointless. They're be pretty much equally well off with no encryption, actually better because they'd have no false sense of security.
3205 2011-06-27 21:22:48 <jaromil> i think that's a typo, something like a space missing or so. unfortunately i owe no apple computer to try now, had tried a couple of fixes ago
3206 2011-06-27 21:23:14 xtalmath has joined
3207 2011-06-27 21:23:45 sanchaz has joined
3208 2011-06-27 21:24:07 Transformer has quit (Excess Flood)
3209 2011-06-27 21:24:09 <gmaxwell> (Morover, I'd rather have a user who would use a 7 character password not use encrpytion at all, vs use encrpytion and get robbed, just to make it extra clear where the blame lies.
3210 2011-06-27 21:24:10 <xtalmath> gmaxwell: about your type-2 wallets, when randomly choosing privatekey B (the scalar steps), you should check that for order of the curve O: make sure that x=O/gcd(O, B) is large enough not to have the (n+x)th wallet map to the same bitcoin address as the nth wallet
3211 2011-06-27 21:24:13 <gmaxwell> )
3212 2011-06-27 21:24:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, I need to write the please enter password to first encrypt wallet later...I dont think its our responsibility to impose restrictions, I will, however, make it clear that short passwords provide almost nothing over no encryption
3213 2011-06-27 21:24:17 <xtalmath> not yet a security problem but a low probability usability problem
3214 2011-06-27 21:24:22 <xtalmath> there should be more than enough having gcd(O,B)=1
3215 2011-06-27 21:24:30 <xtalmath> youd really expect this to be the case (but still have to be prepared for the case it isnt)
3216 2011-06-27 21:25:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: also, I think we'd be wise to s/password/passphrase/ in all interface text. This is done, e.g. by pgp/gpg and it's actually effective at getting users to use long strings.
3217 2011-06-27 21:25:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, thats on the todo as well
3218 2011-06-27 21:26:29 <BlueMatt> I think thats the full todo though, rewrite first encryption dialog, s/password/passphrase/, stuff marked with //TODO, and maybe a decrypt encrypted wallet option
3219 2011-06-27 21:27:08 Clipse-b has joined
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3221 2011-06-27 21:27:38 <BlueMatt> jaromil: it had a laundry list of things fixed, like AM_MAINTAINER_MODE added and a ton of fixes to include paths
3222 2011-06-27 21:27:46 <BlueMatt> as well as some documentation clearing up
3223 2011-06-27 21:27:56 <gmaxwell> sipa and I talked about having something to display a recovery string that could be stored on paper. I'm not sure about that vs just encouraging the user to write down the key itself and put it someplace secure.
3224 2011-06-27 21:28:07 <BlueMatt> and it was in your repo at one point, but has seemed to have disappeared
3225 2011-06-27 21:28:41 The_SLain_MAn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3226 2011-06-27 21:29:14 <sipa> i like the pgp words approach
3227 2011-06-27 21:29:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the key would probably be a bit long for that, however the current implementation handles multiple paraphrases (though not in the ui) so it wouldnt be particularly hard
3228 2011-06-27 21:29:49 <dinox> Hmm, getting java to run on osx seems to be a pain
3229 2011-06-27 21:29:52 <BlueMatt> but if we were to do that, I would like a print button and I dont even close to feel like implementing that in wx, maybe when we switch to qt someone will...
3230 2011-06-27 21:30:06 <BlueMatt> unless you guys think its enough of an important feature...
3231 2011-06-27 21:30:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'd suggested pgpwords. It encodes bytes as phonetically distict basic english words.  One issue with print is that we don't want people saving it to a file.
3232 2011-06-27 21:30:13 <sipa> yeah, i don't think we should implement that now immediatly
3233 2011-06-27 21:30:19 copumpkin has joined
3234 2011-06-27 21:30:46 <gmaxwell> It would be easy enough to add since it supports multiple master keys.
3235 2011-06-27 21:30:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: stop be from printinf to pdf and i'll just screen shot it damn it
3236 2011-06-27 21:30:47 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3237 2011-06-27 21:30:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the whole key in pgpwords would be ridiculously long
3238 2011-06-27 21:30:51 <jrmithdobbs> s/be/me/
3239 2011-06-27 21:30:56 <diki> BlueMatt:when a miner requests a getwork from bitcoin, does the getwork expire after some time?
3240 2011-06-27 21:31:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: 32 words
3241 2011-06-27 21:31:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: 32 words...
3242 2011-06-27 21:31:05 <TD[home]> dinox: i develop bitcoinj on os x
3243 2011-06-27 21:31:11 <TD[home]> so it can definitely work
3244 2011-06-27 21:31:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: gmaxwell 32 words is pretty long
3245 2011-06-27 21:31:18 <dinox> hmm
3246 2011-06-27 21:31:19 wildcard0 has joined
3247 2011-06-27 21:31:21 <dinox> TD[home]: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/421614/
3248 2011-06-27 21:31:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: sure, but it'd be an unlock code, not something conveniently typed every time
3249 2011-06-27 21:31:37 The_SLain_MAn has joined
3250 2011-06-27 21:31:41 <TD[home]> you need to set the classpath
3251 2011-06-27 21:31:42 <TD[home]> or use an IDE
3252 2011-06-27 21:31:42 <wildcard0> hey guys.  is bitcoin supposed to act as an irc bot or do i have a problem here?
3253 2011-06-27 21:31:47 <TD[home]> wildcard0: it is
3254 2011-06-27 21:31:57 <sipa> it uses irc to find peers
3255 2011-06-27 21:32:03 <sipa> initially
3256 2011-06-27 21:32:23 <wildcard0> i dont want to be all up in your design, but i see some potential security problems here
3257 2011-06-27 21:32:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: true, ok so then you guys think it would be important enough to add an option in the menu for "Generate Wallet Emergency Unlock Phrase" which will be displayed in big print for the user to write down?
3258 2011-06-27 21:32:43 <dinox> TD[home]: CLASSPATH=[...]/bitcoinj/dist/bitcoinj-20110627.jar ?
3259 2011-06-27 21:32:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: i wouldn't do that *now*, but i think it's useful yes
3260 2011-06-27 21:32:56 <TD[home]> java -classpath lib/slf4j-api-1.6.1.jar:lib/slf4j-simple-1.6.1.jar com.google.bitcoin.examples.PingService
3261 2011-06-27 21:32:59 <TD[home]> something like that
3262 2011-06-27 21:33:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: and why not?
3263 2011-06-27 21:33:08 <TD[home]> you have to tell it where to find the dependencies
3264 2011-06-27 21:33:16 <dinox> aha
3265 2011-06-27 21:33:18 <TD[home]> (this is the same on every platform)
3266 2011-06-27 21:33:26 <TD[home]> though i'd recommend downloading the community (free) edition of IntelliJ
3267 2011-06-27 21:33:27 <dinox> is there any way to make this permanent?
3268 2011-06-27 21:33:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: first wait till wallet crypto is merged and possible we switched to qt :)
3269 2011-06-27 21:33:35 <TD[home]> java without an IDE is quite painful
3270 2011-06-27 21:33:49 abragin has quit ()
3271 2011-06-27 21:33:50 <wildcard0> ok thanks.  at least i know what that port is doing now.
3272 2011-06-27 21:33:59 <dinox> okay, I try IntelliJ then, thanks!
3273 2011-06-27 21:34:02 wildcard0 has left ()
3274 2011-06-27 21:34:02 <TD[home]> wildcard0: yeah irc discovery isn't the greatest
3275 2011-06-27 21:34:05 <TD[home]> oops
3276 2011-06-27 21:34:14 <sipa> too late
3277 2011-06-27 21:34:16 <gmaxwell> scorecard phonetic Dakota scavenger beeswax underfoot torpedo Zulu armistice commence ringbolt aftermath embezzle publisher brackish tradition exceed baboon newsletter combustion facial framework involve savagery celebrate locale leprosy filament caretaker offload optic insurgent
3278 2011-06-27 21:34:16 <luke-jr> TD[home]: does BitcoinJ implement JSON-RPC
3279 2011-06-27 21:34:18 <luke-jr> ?
3280 2011-06-27 21:34:28 <TD[home]> no. that'd be fairly pointless. it's a java api.
3281 2011-06-27 21:34:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: well at this point merge-time is up to when enough people have tested it, not how much I add to it
3282 2011-06-27 21:34:41 <luke-jr> TD[home]: APIs for wallets should be protocols
3283 2011-06-27 21:34:54 <luke-jr> oh well
3284 2011-06-27 21:34:56 <diki> BlueMatt,sipa:when a miner requests a getwork from bitcoin, does the getwork expire after some time?
3285 2011-06-27 21:35:07 <luke-jr> diki: when it's stale
3286 2011-06-27 21:35:43 <diki> and when does it become stale?
3287 2011-06-27 21:35:43 <gmaxwell> It took me 43 seconds to jot down those words.
3288 2011-06-27 21:36:37 <luke-jr> diki: random
3289 2011-06-27 21:36:49 <BlueMatt> poll: an option to unencrypt the wallet?
3290 2011-06-27 21:37:07 ThomasV has joined
3291 2011-06-27 21:37:16 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: bitcointools
3292 2011-06-27 21:37:30 abragin has joined
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3295 2011-06-27 21:37:38 <sipa> the only reason to really unencrypt is to use with an older version of bitcoin - whether people want that, is something we'll need to see when the time comes
3296 2011-06-27 21:37:44 samlander has quit ()
3297 2011-06-27 21:37:55 <denisx> how long does it need for a block tp propagate through the whole network?
3298 2011-06-27 21:37:56 <sipa> you could as well have an empty passphrase if you don't want to type it each time :)
3299 2011-06-27 21:38:05 <gmaxwell> I think it currently checks that.
3300 2011-06-27 21:38:20 <TD[home]> right, time to pay some bills in traditional currency
3301 2011-06-27 21:38:27 <BlueMatt> sipa: nope, empty passphrases are rejected, has to be 1 char or more
3302 2011-06-27 21:38:31 <sipa> ah, ok
3303 2011-06-27 21:38:32 <denisx> I have 97 connections and noone tells me about 133583 for minutes
3304 2011-06-27 21:38:39 <gmaxwell> I kinda wish the pgpword list was constructed so that you only needed the first few letters... you need six letters to make them all unique, that kinda sucks.
3305 2011-06-27 21:38:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: \n
3306 2011-06-27 21:38:46 <BlueMatt> (hint: all my wallets have passphrase "a")
3307 2011-06-27 21:38:49 hahuang65 has joined
3308 2011-06-27 21:38:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: shouldn't be too hard to compose our own
3309 2011-06-27 21:39:02 abragin has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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3312 2011-06-27 21:39:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, the pgp ones are meant for reading over the phone.
3313 2011-06-27 21:39:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: if you can figure out a way to enter that in the text box...
3314 2011-06-27 21:39:25 <sipa> which is a nice property, but not the only one
3315 2011-06-27 21:39:57 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: "I see you've chosen ______ for your password. Why not do like me and use Enter? it's much easier to type."
3316 2011-06-27 21:40:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: I could just take one of the proposed simple english (N most common words in english) and make such a list. E.g. words of at least four letters, for which only four were actually required to uniquify them out of a set of 256.
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3321 2011-06-27 21:40:45 <sipa> something like that
3322 2011-06-27 21:40:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: not when enter clicks ok and enters an empty password ;)
3323 2011-06-27 21:40:56 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
3324 2011-06-27 21:40:57 <gribble> 133583
3325 2011-06-27 21:41:11 Stuck_ has joined
3326 2011-06-27 21:41:28 <gmaxwell> oh thats a question... how will this cope with, e.g. unicode in passwords. Will it work correctly in both the UI and the RPC?
3327 2011-06-27 21:41:30 <Stuck_> Anyone here heard of atomicturtle?
3328 2011-06-27 21:42:12 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3329 2011-06-27 21:42:14 <Stuck_> Had this conversation with him, he was one of the creators of plesk, mentioned bitcoin to him and he said he was well aware of it from the fraud side of things... http://fpaste.org/Qtxh/
3330 2011-06-27 21:42:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nfc, if rpc + wxString + std::string handle utf right, yes
3331 2011-06-27 21:42:26 <b4epoche> Ninja Turtle, yes…  Atomic Turtle, no
3332 2011-06-27 21:43:11 <BlueMatt> Stuck_: why did you say "lol nice" bitcoin is really good about anti-fraud
3333 2011-06-27 21:43:25 abragin has joined
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3336 2011-06-27 21:43:52 <Stuck_> BlueMatt, it is only an exerpt of the conversation. i liked that he had in fact heard about it.
3337 2011-06-27 21:44:21 <Stuck_> he is involved with several foss projects for security
3338 2011-06-27 21:44:27 <BlueMatt> Stuck_: m, fair enough
3339 2011-06-27 21:44:33 <Stuck_> just wondering if he ever poked his head in here
3340 2011-06-27 21:44:55 <BlueMatt> ;;seen atomicturtle
3341 2011-06-27 21:44:55 <gribble> I have not seen atomicturtle.
3342 2011-06-27 21:44:57 <BlueMatt> nope
3343 2011-06-27 21:45:13 <Stuck_> he was helping me with plesk, asked him for a btc address to give him some coin and he wouldn't give me one. so don't know his complete involvement.
3344 2011-06-27 21:45:34 <BlueMatt> Id assume none
3345 2011-06-27 21:45:50 <BlueMatt> based on that statement, Id say he did a tiny bit of research and came to an incorrect conclusion
3346 2011-06-27 21:45:58 <BlueMatt> (about bitcoin's fraud resistance)
3347 2011-06-27 21:46:00 <Shuddertrix> ^ is also what i'm thinking
3348 2011-06-27 21:46:14 <Shuddertrix> he didn't dive right into it, even though he's apparently into FOSS
3349 2011-06-27 21:49:44 nanook7 has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
3350 2011-06-27 21:50:02 <Stuck_> I don't think anyone can point out terrible fraud concerns with bitcoin vs say cash. Maybe his implications were to 3rd party sites that have had issues and the users using them.
3351 2011-06-27 21:50:06 gjs278 has joined
3352 2011-06-27 21:51:13 <sipa> if you consider bitcoin as an electronic payment processor, there are huge fraud implications
3353 2011-06-27 21:51:32 <sipa> if you consider it as currency... not so much
3354 2011-06-27 21:53:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: nice start: http://www.langmaker.com/wordlist/basiclex.htm
3355 2011-06-27 21:53:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was using this: http://ogden.basic-english.org/word2000.html
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3357 2011-06-27 21:53:58 <gmaxwell> Looks like if you strip out the <4 letter words and the >8 letter words there are 770 unique three letter prefixes.
3358 2011-06-27 21:54:17 <sipa> enough for 3 sets of 256 words
3359 2011-06-27 21:54:27 prg3 has joined
3360 2011-06-27 21:55:17 <gmaxwell> So I was going to find the most distinct set of 256 of those, then see what I get. See if I could find 256 prefixes, and then create multiple sets by the following words.
3361 2011-06-27 21:55:28 <gmaxwell> I'm writing some python to do this, so other people can screw with it
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3374 2011-06-27 22:02:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: there are actually two possibilities
3375 2011-06-27 22:03:23 <sipa> either you just generate a word sequence with 256 bits of entropy (or at least 128), and add that sentence as a regular passphrase, which will be hashed in textform
3376 2011-06-27 22:04:00 <sipa> or you have a special wordset-passphrase input system, which can predict inputs by their first characters, and maps to the original 256-bit value
3377 2011-06-27 22:04:14 <sipa> the second one is definitely more user friendly
3378 2011-06-27 22:04:17 <gmaxwell> I'd rather have a special decoder that takes advantage of the fact that I can stuff all the entropy in the first characters.
3379 2011-06-27 22:04:23 <gmaxwell> yea.
3380 2011-06-27 22:04:42 <gmaxwell> Working on a wordlist for that. (could still be used for the first case)
3381 2011-06-27 22:05:03 <sipa> for the first case you could have a real grammar-based sentence generator
3382 2011-06-27 22:05:19 <gmaxwell> I found great matrixes with letter visual (dis-)simularity too.
3383 2011-06-27 22:05:27 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #34: FAILURE in 45 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/34/
3384 2011-06-27 22:05:59 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r98502c3 / vendor/mongoose : Updated Mongoose. - http://bit.ly/kjNuKK
3385 2011-06-27 22:05:59 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r94da6e7 / vendor/mongoose : Fixed two memory leaks upstream in MongooseJS - http://bit.ly/knrTs0
3386 2011-06-27 22:06:12 <TD[home]> justmoon: how is webcoin coming along ?
3387 2011-06-27 22:06:24 <justmoon> still leaking memory :(
3388 2011-06-27 22:06:26 Chopes has quit ()
3389 2011-06-27 22:06:36 <TD[home]> in javascript??
3390 2011-06-27 22:06:51 Soak has quit ()
3391 2011-06-27 22:07:01 <justmoon> yeah, a closure that is stored in a variable in an enclosing scope is not collected in v8
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3395 2011-06-27 22:07:32 <TD[home]> that seems like a pretty fundamental bug
3396 2011-06-27 22:07:48 <justmoon> I'm sure they did that because there is no way to safely clean those up
3397 2011-06-27 22:07:53 <denisx> ;;bc,blocks
3398 2011-06-27 22:07:54 <gribble> 133588
3399 2011-06-27 22:07:59 <justmoon> google's recommendation is to avoid closures like that
3400 2011-06-27 22:08:06 <justmoon> see google style guide for javascript
3401 2011-06-27 22:08:07 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3402 2011-06-27 22:08:13 <justmoon> http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/javascriptguide.xml?showone=Closures#Closures\
3403 2011-06-27 22:08:20 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3404 2011-06-27 22:08:30 blaz_ has joined
3405 2011-06-27 22:08:44 <TD[home]> right, but that's specifically to do with DOM objects
3406 2011-06-27 22:08:51 eternal1 has joined
3407 2011-06-27 22:09:08 <justmoon> it affects all closures that can see a variable of themselves
3408 2011-06-27 22:09:25 <justmoon> so "var bla = function () {};" leaks
3409 2011-06-27 22:09:28 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110614230723])
3410 2011-06-27 22:09:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://www.manythings.org/sm/
3411 2011-06-27 22:10:10 <justmoon> there might another necessary condition, but I've been fixing memory leaks like that all weekend
3412 2011-06-27 22:10:22 Mqrius has joined
3413 2011-06-27 22:10:27 <TD[home]> that's odd. v8 uses a precise generational collector. cycles shouldn't faze it
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3415 2011-06-27 22:10:32 gjs278 has joined
3416 2011-06-27 22:10:38 <TD[home]> i guess it must be due to the integration with native code
3417 2011-06-27 22:10:43 <TD[home]> same as with the DOM
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3419 2011-06-27 22:10:57 <justmoon> it only happens with closures
3420 2011-06-27 22:11:00 <TD[home]> yeah
3421 2011-06-27 22:11:31 Beremat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3422 2011-06-27 22:11:36 <justmoon> awesome tools though - d8 is v8's debugger, helped a lot while debugging
3423 2011-06-27 22:12:06 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3424 2011-06-27 22:12:14 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3426 2011-06-27 22:12:56 <justmoon> I was seriously thinking of posting a bounty for the memory leaks
3427 2011-06-27 22:13:10 <justmoon> this stuff is so tedious and I wanna focus on features and launch soon
3428 2011-06-27 22:13:12 <TD[home]> is javascript really any more productive than c++ given these problems?
3429 2011-06-27 22:13:27 Eremes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3430 2011-06-27 22:13:46 <justmoon> well, the memory issue has dampened my enthusiasm about closures somewhat, I'm not gonna lie
3431 2011-06-27 22:13:56 cyphase has joined
3432 2011-06-27 22:14:16 <justmoon> I think once you know how to avoid the issue it's not a big deal, but right now I have to go fishing in the dark through my entire code
3433 2011-06-27 22:14:38 <TD[home]> http://www.javascriptkit.com/javatutors/closuresleak/index3.shtml
3434 2011-06-27 22:14:47 <TD[home]> that article says it's because of the crossover between the dom and js worlds
3435 2011-06-27 22:14:54 <TD[home]> that was my understanding ...... pure js should never leak due to cycles
3436 2011-06-27 22:15:08 <TD[home]> but i guess once you start using objects implemented in c++ that can trigger it
3437 2011-06-27 22:15:14 <justmoon> also that dom issue only affects IE iirc
3438 2011-06-27 22:15:29 <TD[home]> i think it affects gecko too
3439 2011-06-27 22:15:32 <TD[home]> or at least used to
3440 2011-06-27 22:15:34 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3441 2011-06-27 22:16:05 <TD[home]> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4918557/debugging-memory-leaks-with-node-js-server
3442 2011-06-27 22:16:11 <TD[home]> sounds similar
3443 2011-06-27 22:16:25 Eremes has joined
3444 2011-06-27 22:16:33 <Mqrius> I am trying to generate private/public key pairs in python, but the private keys I generate are not 160 long. I think I'm missing some understanding somewhere, but I'm not sure what. Can anyone help me out? (Code snippet, really short: http://pastebin.com/9JYwUTdG )
3445 2011-06-27 22:16:42 <justmoon> yeah, fortunately the leaks in node-mongodb-native (even further upstream) seem to have been fixed
3446 2011-06-27 22:17:17 <justmoon> Mqrius: ECDSA private keys in the curve that bitcoin uses are 256bit long, the 160bit number is a RIPE160(SHA256(x)) hash
3447 2011-06-27 22:17:18 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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3450 2011-06-27 22:18:26 <justmoon> TD: our discussion has made me uncertain whether I correctly understand the cause of the leaks - the fix in the style does fix it - I can see that in the heap profile, but maybe it's for other reasons than I think
3451 2011-06-27 22:18:33 <justmoon> style guide*
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3453 2011-06-27 22:18:37 <TD[home]> yes
3454 2011-06-27 22:18:40 <TD[home]> it would do
3455 2011-06-27 22:18:51 <TD[home]> i think the problem is that the v8 garbage collector cannot scan c/c++ heaps
3456 2011-06-27 22:19:06 <TD[home]> if you have native code that is holding a javascript object (like a callback/closure), then it cannot be collected
3457 2011-06-27 22:19:12 <TD[home]> because the object is always live
3458 2011-06-27 22:19:21 <Mqrius> justmoon: Okay. But the ones I generate are not 256 bits long either. Is this perhaps caused by the PEM representation or something?
3459 2011-06-27 22:19:21 falafell has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3460 2011-06-27 22:19:34 <TD[home]> if the callback is also holding a pointer to the native object, you have a cycle that crosses in and out of the GCd heap
3461 2011-06-27 22:19:42 <TD[home]> Mqrius: could be
3462 2011-06-27 22:19:52 <TD[home]> Mqrius: if it's much larger than 256 bits then you probably have a PEM structure
3463 2011-06-27 22:19:53 <sipa> Mqrius: pem encoded adds a lot of redundant elements, like the curve and field parameters
3464 2011-06-27 22:20:00 <sipa> *encoding
3465 2011-06-27 22:20:32 <justmoon> Mqrius: make sure you are on the secp256k1 curve
3466 2011-06-27 22:20:49 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3467 2011-06-27 22:20:54 <justmoon> the 256 stands for 256bit and the p stands for Np math
3468 2011-06-27 22:21:19 <justmoon> so any pure key in there should be 256bit otherwise it's encoded as mike said
3469 2011-06-27 22:21:27 <Mqrius> justmoon: I am, as far as I can tell. (See http://pastebin.com/9JYwUTdG for code snippet).
3470 2011-06-27 22:21:27 traviscj has joined
3471 2011-06-27 22:21:41 <Mqrius> Hmyeah, then probably I'm generating keys correctly, just PEM encoded.
3472 2011-06-27 22:21:45 <justmoon> yeah, then what mike said
3473 2011-06-27 22:21:51 fnord0 has joined
3474 2011-06-27 22:21:53 <justmoon> yep
3475 2011-06-27 22:21:54 <sipa> how long are the keys?
3476 2011-06-27 22:22:03 b4epoche_ has joined
3477 2011-06-27 22:22:07 <Mqrius> 120 chars
3478 2011-06-27 22:22:25 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
3479 2011-06-27 22:22:25 <sipa> for the public key, or for the keypair?
3480 2011-06-27 22:22:26 <justmoon> the sample you have on your pastebin is base64
3481 2011-06-27 22:22:26 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3482 2011-06-27 22:22:34 <erus`> what the fuck is this monster in my room? http://imgur.com/hDXco
3483 2011-06-27 22:22:59 <TD[home]> Mqrius: you have DER encoded key
3484 2011-06-27 22:23:02 SanguineRose has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3485 2011-06-27 22:23:06 <TD[home]> so yeah, lots of unnecessary stuff around i
3486 2011-06-27 22:23:08 <TD[home]> around it
3487 2011-06-27 22:23:17 Sylph has joined
3488 2011-06-27 22:23:21 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen 350
3489 2011-06-27 22:23:22 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 350 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.000255245035453 BTC per day and 1.06352098106e-05 BTC per hour.
3490 2011-06-27 22:23:23 SanguineRose has joined
3491 2011-06-27 22:24:05 _ape has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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3493 2011-06-27 22:24:25 <Mqrius> TD[home]: I guess. I'm not quite sure what is what, really. The key generating code is just copypasted from something I found.
3494 2011-06-27 22:24:35 <TD[home]> what are you trying to do?
3495 2011-06-27 22:24:44 idnar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3496 2011-06-27 22:24:44 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen 350000
3497 2011-06-27 22:24:46 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 350000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.255245035453 BTC per day and 0.0106352098106 BTC per hour.
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3512 2011-06-27 22:25:52 <Mqrius> TD[home]: Trying to generate some addresses, eventually, to see if I can find any novelty ones. I got the public key -> address part working, but eventually I will want to add them to my wallet, of course.
3513 2011-06-27 22:25:53 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3514 2011-06-27 22:26:02 <TD[home]> ah right
3515 2011-06-27 22:26:25 Aexoden has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3516 2011-06-27 22:26:25 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3517 2011-06-27 22:26:32 <Mqrius> (And yeah, python isn't very fast, but at least it codes easily :P)
3518 2011-06-27 22:26:32 <justmoon> TD: bitcoin addresses are generated from the PEM formatted pubkey though unless I'm totally mistaken
3519 2011-06-27 22:26:51 <justmoon> TD: so he'd just need to hash the stuff that he has
3520 2011-06-27 22:26:58 <justmoon> and base58 encode it obv
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3524 2011-06-27 22:27:35 <Mqrius> justmoon: Yeah, I can grab a publickey from the blockexplorer, and correctly generate the address. That is working
3525 2011-06-27 22:27:56 <justmoon> Mqrius: gavinandresen also built something like that: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=1387.0
3526 2011-06-27 22:27:58 <Mqrius> I'm just trying to generate pairs now, but I don't fully understand everything, so it's hard to say if I'm succeeding :P
3527 2011-06-27 22:28:35 <justmoon> Mqrius, well your example outputs the public key, not the private key
3528 2011-06-27 22:28:51 <justmoon> I assume it would be something like ec.priv() to get the private key
3529 2011-06-27 22:28:57 <justmoon> and that should then be 256bit
3530 2011-06-27 22:29:07 <justmoon> (wild guesses)
3531 2011-06-27 22:29:32 <TD[home]> justmoon: they're hashes of the raw pubkey
3532 2011-06-27 22:29:44 _ape has joined
3533 2011-06-27 22:30:00 <justmoon> TD: right, got confused because of EC pubkey point encoding
3534 2011-06-27 22:30:10 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3535 2011-06-27 22:30:17 <justmoon> TD: the 0x04, then x, then y stuff
3536 2011-06-27 22:30:26 peck has joined
3537 2011-06-27 22:30:45 <TD[home]> yeah
3538 2011-06-27 22:30:55 <justmoon> in my code that's called "getEncoded()" probably should rename that :)
3539 2011-06-27 22:31:36 <upb> hey can you guys give me a test vector of an address when its base58 decoded ?
3540 2011-06-27 22:31:49 Eremes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3541 2011-06-27 22:32:07 tcoppi has joined
3542 2011-06-27 22:32:10 Eremes has joined
3543 2011-06-27 22:32:20 <justmoon> upb: as hex?
3544 2011-06-27 22:32:50 <Mqrius> justmoon: Oh right. Hm, according to the docs it only seems to support saving the private key to a file. Rather arbitrary limitation 0.o
3545 2011-06-27 22:33:04 <upb> justmoon: yeah hex is fine :)
3546 2011-06-27 22:33:35 <justmoon> Crypto.util.bytesToHex(Bitcoin.Base58.decode("1Ge9Mo3EF8DBhEt3g3dTpZiX75YnWZGXRM"))
3547 2011-06-27 22:33:36 <justmoon> "00ab904132991632283a3c1831317046fb8d2aeb7bf55d2bf4"
3548 2011-06-27 22:33:37 <upb> not all the way to the public key but just the base58 stage
3549 2011-06-27 22:33:41 <upb> thx :)
3550 2011-06-27 22:33:50 <justmoon> remove the initial 00
3551 2011-06-27 22:33:56 <justmoon> nevermind
3552 2011-06-27 22:33:58 <upb> nah thats correct
3553 2011-06-27 22:33:59 <justmoon> don't remove it
3554 2011-06-27 22:34:02 <justmoon> yeah :)
3555 2011-06-27 22:34:04 karnac has joined
3556 2011-06-27 22:34:27 <justmoon> sorry guys, it's late :)
3557 2011-06-27 22:34:30 <justmoon> (standard excuse)
3558 2011-06-27 22:36:12 <justmoon> upb: "all the way to the public key" <- just to be clear, you can't go from the address to the public key, because the address is a one-way hash of the public key
3559 2011-06-27 22:36:20 <upb> yes
3560 2011-06-27 22:36:27 <justmoon> kk, just makin' sure :)
3561 2011-06-27 22:36:31 <justmoon> no offense
3562 2011-06-27 22:36:33 <justmoon> :)
3563 2011-06-27 22:36:35 <justmoon> <3
3564 2011-06-27 22:36:39 <upb> none accepted, all blocked ÖP
3565 2011-06-27 22:36:43 <justmoon> :D
3566 2011-06-27 22:37:10 <justmoon> I'm only here because I'm procrastinating writing my OU paper
3567 2011-06-27 22:37:13 <justmoon> (open university)
3568 2011-06-27 22:37:23 ssalxs has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3569 2011-06-27 22:38:00 <justmoon> actually, I should get on that
3570 2011-06-27 22:38:06 <justmoon> good luck with your projects @ all :)
3571 2011-06-27 22:38:07 <justmoon> cya
3572 2011-06-27 22:38:09 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3587 2011-06-27 22:50:09 <Mqrius> What exactly is DER? Do I still need to 'unpack' it if I want the actual public key? Or is that the actual public key?
3588 2011-06-27 22:50:14 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3589 2011-06-27 22:50:34 <jgarzik> Mqrius: DER is an encoding format
3590 2011-06-27 22:50:41 <jgarzik> Mqrius: the private key is simply 256 random bits
3591 2011-06-27 22:50:52 nhodges has joined
3592 2011-06-27 22:51:07 Cryo has joined
3593 2011-06-27 22:51:45 <Mqrius> jgarzik: Right. So... the M2Crypto module for python is pretty lame, since it doesn't allow me to just get the raw key directly?
3594 2011-06-27 22:52:03 <jgarzik> Mqrius: dunno
3595 2011-06-27 22:52:16 <Mqrius> Kay. Thanks :)
3596 2011-06-27 22:52:53 ReapZor has quit (Quit: I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts.)
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3601 2011-06-27 22:55:38 <zapnap> jgarzik: hey, just getting back to this for a few minutes... i've patched the endian stuff in pushpool but i'm running into some issues now where argp doesn't seem to exist in this variant of glibc.
3602 2011-06-27 22:56:00 <zapnap> worth yanking the argp-standalone stuff into a compat folder or something?
3603 2011-06-27 22:56:08 <zapnap> or i guess the other option would be (more compatible) getopt
3604 2011-06-27 22:56:13 <jgarzik> zapnap: freebsd has argp-standalone
3605 2011-06-27 22:56:16 <jgarzik> zapnap: heh, exactly :)
3606 2011-06-27 22:56:19 <zapnap> jgarzik: :)
3607 2011-06-27 22:56:27 <dinox> hmm getting NullPointerExp when trying to read version message with bitcoinj
3608 2011-06-27 22:56:35 <zapnap> so i should be able to install that and link it in i suspect?
3609 2011-06-27 22:57:00 <zapnap> again, sorry, ruby developer not a c hacker. some of it is coming back to me but not all of it lol
3610 2011-06-27 22:57:12 <jgarzik> zapnap: yeah it should be compatible
3611 2011-06-27 22:57:19 bitcoiner has joined
3612 2011-06-27 22:57:19 <zamgo> i sense a working android client is not too far in the future
3613 2011-06-27 22:57:48 <dinox> TD[home]: NullPointerExp when trying to read version message in bitcoinj, any idea? Bitcoind report ok at the other end
3614 2011-06-27 22:57:49 <zapnap> i guess i'd probably have to adjust the configure scripts to detect its existence though? or should it "just work"?
3615 2011-06-27 22:57:55 bitcoiner has quit (Client Quit)
3616 2011-06-27 22:58:17 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen [350*3]
3617 2011-06-27 22:58:18 <gribble> Error: "350*3" is not a valid command.
3618 2011-06-27 22:58:24 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen 350000*3
3619 2011-06-27 22:58:25 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 350000*3 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 0.76573510636 BTC per day and 0.0319056294317 BTC per hour.
3620 2011-06-27 22:59:38 Guest97894 is now known as elnato
3621 2011-06-27 22:59:47 <upb> Mqrius: if you find an asn1 lib, you can decode it
3622 2011-06-27 22:59:52 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3623 2011-06-27 23:00:29 <denisx> ;bc,gen 350000*3 + 440000
3624 2011-06-27 23:00:38 <denisx> ;;bc,gen 350000*3 + 440000
3625 2011-06-27 23:00:40 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 350000*3 + 440000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 88666067767771170001855398293255181869948946393426624965061703582361845760 BTC per day and 3694419490323799011623213903330664404405765400045543377809047835266514944 BTC per hour.
3626 2011-06-27 23:00:43 <Mqrius> upb: Supposedly it starts out decoded. If I'm going to look for novelty addresses, it's not going to be faster with the extra processing...
3627 2011-06-27 23:00:56 <denisx> that would be nice ;)
3628 2011-06-27 23:00:57 <upb> sure
3629 2011-06-27 23:01:07 <zapnap> ugh feeling dumb :D
3630 2011-06-27 23:01:20 <upb> Mqrius: but if its encoded on demand its not that bad
3631 2011-06-27 23:01:23 fnord0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3632 2011-06-27 23:01:24 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, take a look at http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18051.0
3633 2011-06-27 23:01:48 <zapnap> undefined symbols. i'm clearly doing *something* wrong
3634 2011-06-27 23:01:54 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, it's the same thing, but the other way around: getting a raw public key in something m2crypto understands
3635 2011-06-27 23:01:57 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3636 2011-06-27 23:01:59 <upb> hmm actually it is, you still need to decode it every time
3637 2011-06-27 23:02:37 TD[home] has quit (Quit: TD[home])
3638 2011-06-27 23:03:17 fnord0 has joined
3639 2011-06-27 23:04:26 <zapnap> jgarzik: if i specify -largp i still get 2 undefined symbols. maybe something specific to the non-standalone version? just _le32toh and _htole32
3640 2011-06-27 23:04:35 <zapnap> i suspect it's because i'm on a 65 bit platform :D
3641 2011-06-27 23:04:36 amiller has joined
3642 2011-06-27 23:04:41 <zapnap> erm, 64
3643 2011-06-27 23:04:44 * zapnap can't type
3644 2011-06-27 23:04:44 <jgarzik> zapnap: that is related to byte ordering, not argp
3645 2011-06-27 23:04:49 <zapnap> kk
3646 2011-06-27 23:04:52 Guest1598725452 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3647 2011-06-27 23:05:09 <zapnap> i'll revisit the changes i made then, ty
3648 2011-06-27 23:06:32 Castor_ has joined
3649 2011-06-27 23:06:33 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r3e86f58342a1 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/viewgpg.php: OTCWebsite: link keyids on viewgpg to keyserver search on pool.sks-keyservers.net http://tinyurl.com/6dtofzo
3650 2011-06-27 23:06:39 freakazoid has joined
3651 2011-06-27 23:07:25 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: Hmm. *confused. I also tried looking at the m2crypto source, but the command that's giving the DER version is hooked into the low level openssl functions. I'm not sure what to change to get a raw key
3652 2011-06-27 23:08:27 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3653 2011-06-27 23:09:34 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, see where I append that magical string? If you make a lot of new keys with m2crypto you'll see that that always get repeated
3654 2011-06-27 23:09:51 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, so if you remove that, you'll get the raw public key that you need
3655 2011-06-27 23:09:51 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
3656 2011-06-27 23:09:51 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #35: FIXED in 1 hr 2 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/35/
3657 2011-06-27 23:10:02 <Titeuf_87> Not really a nice way to do it though
3658 2011-06-27 23:10:11 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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3660 2011-06-27 23:11:34 sytse has joined
3661 2011-06-27 23:11:43 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: So, DER is just the raw key plus that string...?
3662 2011-06-27 23:12:06 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, as far as I figured out, yes
3663 2011-06-27 23:12:10 noagendamarket has joined
3664 2011-06-27 23:12:23 <Titeuf_87> I haven't looked yet on how der actually works, so I could be wrong, but this seemed to work for me...
3665 2011-06-27 23:12:40 <Mqrius> Seems worth a try
3666 2011-06-27 23:12:42 Beremat has joined
3667 2011-06-27 23:12:58 <Titeuf_87> I'm going to go to bed now.
3668 2011-06-27 23:13:02 <Mqrius> Okay
3669 2011-06-27 23:13:06 <Mqrius> thanks for the help :)
3670 2011-06-27 23:13:09 <Titeuf_87> If you can't figure it out, I can try to write something too tomorrow :)
3671 2011-06-27 23:13:11 <Titeuf_87> Good luck!
3672 2011-06-27 23:13:13 <Mqrius> heh
3673 2011-06-27 23:13:17 <Mqrius> tnx
3674 2011-06-27 23:13:27 <zapnap> huzzah
3675 2011-06-27 23:13:27 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3676 2011-06-27 23:13:38 <zapnap> jgarzik: thanks again for your help, will send a patch later after i've had time to test it thoroughly
3677 2011-06-27 23:15:41 <denisx> zapnap: you are trying to build pushpoold on freebsd?
3678 2011-06-27 23:15:53 vinsci has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3679 2011-06-27 23:15:54 <zapnap> denisx: os x
3680 2011-06-27 23:15:57 <denisx> ah, ok
3681 2011-06-27 23:16:01 <zapnap> very similar though, i imagine
3682 2011-06-27 23:16:20 <zapnap> unfortunately i don't have a local freebsd box to test this on, or i'd add support for that too
3683 2011-06-27 23:16:36 * zapnap remembers a day when all his production stuff was freebsd, sighs...
3684 2011-06-27 23:16:55 <jaromil> i've heard debian/bsd is vry good...
3685 2011-06-27 23:17:06 Castor_ has quit ()
3686 2011-06-27 23:17:08 sacredchao has joined
3687 2011-06-27 23:17:08 <jaromil> just heard
3688 2011-06-27 23:17:16 Castor_ has joined
3689 2011-06-27 23:17:33 <denisx> I have pushpool running on freebsd already
3690 2011-06-27 23:17:43 <zapnap> denisx: do you have a fork with those changes?
3691 2011-06-27 23:17:51 <denisx> even with diff-n support
3692 2011-06-27 23:17:59 <denisx> zapnap: no, I don't
3693 2011-06-27 23:17:59 <zapnap> you must have run into the endian.h/byteswap issues
3694 2011-06-27 23:18:06 <denisx> zapnap: no
3695 2011-06-27 23:18:15 <denisx> yeah, byteswap
3696 2011-06-27 23:18:17 <zapnap> denisx: would you mind sharing? :)
3697 2011-06-27 23:18:31 <denisx> my coworker did the port, but wait
3698 2011-06-27 23:18:33 rasengan has left ()
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3705 2011-06-27 23:26:18 semarjt has joined
3706 2011-06-27 23:26:18 <dinox> sipa: Still running bitcoin.sipa.be in testnet-mode?
3707 2011-06-27 23:26:51 <semarjt> has anyone seen bitcoind all of the sudden start using a ton of memory (after running uneventfully and mostly unused for weeks)
3708 2011-06-27 23:27:24 <semarjt> right now it is using 72% of total memory on a 512 slice at linode
3709 2011-06-27 23:28:03 <semarjt> does it have memory leaks?
3710 2011-06-27 23:28:40 <jgarzik> semarjt: no, but it does keep a lot of stuff in RAM
3711 2011-06-27 23:29:10 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i wouldn't say no so suddenly
3712 2011-06-27 23:29:17 <phantomcircuit> semarjt, ./bitcoind getinfo
3713 2011-06-27 23:29:21 <phantomcircuit> how many connections?
3714 2011-06-27 23:29:27 lumos has left ("Leaving")
3715 2011-06-27 23:29:39 <semarjt> 119
3716 2011-06-27 23:30:02 <semarjt> wow, just restarted it, quickly jumped bck up to 25% memory
3717 2011-06-27 23:30:13 <semarjt> wth
3718 2011-06-27 23:30:15 <phantomcircuit> each connection has a 10MB buffer
3719 2011-06-27 23:30:33 <phantomcircuit> you should change -maxconnections to like 25
3720 2011-06-27 23:30:39 <semarjt> ah
3721 2011-06-27 23:30:51 <phantomcircuit> otherwise someone who is bored and malicious could crash your bitcoind
3722 2011-06-27 23:30:55 <phantomcircuit> <-- like me
3723 2011-06-27 23:30:57 <phantomcircuit> ;)
3724 2011-06-27 23:31:04 <D0han> abuse
3725 2011-06-27 23:31:15 <phantomcircuit> A BUS
3726 2011-06-27 23:31:18 <phantomcircuit> ABUSE
3727 2011-06-27 23:31:43 <phantomcircuit> zomg my db layout is so sexy
3728 2011-06-27 23:31:49 <D0han> Äßüsë
3729 2011-06-27 23:32:04 <D0han> utf-8 rox
3730 2011-06-27 23:32:05 <D0han> ;]
3731 2011-06-27 23:32:22 <semarjt> ah, when was maxconnections introduced?
3732 2011-06-27 23:32:42 dedeibel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3733 2011-06-27 23:34:25 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
3734 2011-06-27 23:34:47 zamgo has left ()
3735 2011-06-27 23:35:02 <unclemantis> using bitcointools how does one extract the private key from the wallet.dat file?
3736 2011-06-27 23:35:45 <unclemantis> I tried one of the examples in the readme and it doesn't look like it wants to give up the entire private key dbdump.py --wallet --wallet-tx
3737 2011-06-27 23:36:11 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3738 2011-06-27 23:37:08 <gavinandresen> unclemantis: you tweak the source to print the entire key.
3739 2011-06-27 23:37:40 nhodges has joined
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3741 2011-06-27 23:38:01 nhodges has joined
3742 2011-06-27 23:38:10 <gavinandresen> (I don't want any "I posted a screen snapshot and didn't realize that there was some old dbdump.py output in a background window and now all my bitcoins are gone" problems....)
3743 2011-06-27 23:38:23 <Mqrius> Which characters are excluded again in base58 encoding? 0, O, l, I... Which two am I missing?
3744 2011-06-27 23:38:40 <unclemantis> LOL
3745 2011-06-27 23:38:47 <unclemantis> talk about an insurance policy
3746 2011-06-27 23:38:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: any particular reason we keep the block index in RAM?  that's ultimately triple caching, because bdb keeps a cache, and then there's the OS pagecache
3747 2011-06-27 23:39:18 <jgarzik> would greatly boost startup times to simply not load the block index into RAM
3748 2011-06-27 23:39:24 brunner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3749 2011-06-27 23:39:30 <jgarzik> it's stored in a cached, key/value index anyway
3750 2011-06-27 23:39:34 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: because satoshi thought it was a good idea?  because windows sucks at that caching kind of stuff?  I dunno.....
3751 2011-06-27 23:39:34 <unclemantis> and since i know NOTHING about python other than getting the binaries to install on windows and running the readme examples, you are going to leave it up to me to figure it out, arn't ya? :P
3752 2011-06-27 23:39:51 <Mqrius> Oh right, plus and slash. Nvmd then
3753 2011-06-27 23:39:59 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3754 2011-06-27 23:40:04 <gavinandresen> (actually, I don't know that windows 7 sucks at that kind of stuff, I'm just windows bashing for fun)
3755 2011-06-27 23:40:06 f33x has joined
3756 2011-06-27 23:40:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I'm gonna rip it out (on a side branch) and see what happens.  -shouldnt- impact anything at runtime
3757 2011-06-27 23:40:24 genjix has joined
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3759 2011-06-27 23:40:36 <jgarzik> loading the block index into RAM is not only a memory hog, it is one of the bigger slowdowns at startup
3760 2011-06-27 23:40:39 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3761 2011-06-27 23:40:41 <gavinandresen> good idea.  if you can recruit somebody to benchmark on windows before/after, even better
3762 2011-06-27 23:41:14 <luke-jr> I'm not sure that problem is Windows-only
3763 2011-06-27 23:41:24 <gavinandresen> unclemantis: python is fun.  And easy to read...
3764 2011-06-27 23:41:35 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
3765 2011-06-27 23:41:42 <unclemantis> let me guess. short_hex? Hmmm I wonder what THAT does :P
3766 2011-06-27 23:41:45 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3767 2011-06-27 23:41:50 <jgarzik> Windows has a pagecache, and Windows bdb has a cache, so it is definitely triple-caching on Windows too
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3772 2011-06-27 23:48:17 <BlueMatt> does "WARNING: If you encrypt your wallet and lose your passphrase, you will LOSE ALL OF YOUR BITCOINS!" then "Are you sure you wish to encrypt your wallet?" then "Enter the new passphrase to the wallet.\nRemember that a short passphrase is bareley better than none at all." seem right?
3773 2011-06-27 23:49:11 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3774 2011-06-27 23:49:14 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3775 2011-06-27 23:49:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: what does other software do?  seems like a lot of shouting
3776 2011-06-27 23:49:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: other software doesnt handle your money
3777 2011-06-27 23:50:08 <phantomcircuit> semarjt, right after i showed you could trivially crash bitcoind with getblocks spam
3778 2011-06-27 23:50:11 <BlueMatt> there is no "I lost my password" here
3779 2011-06-27 23:50:56 <WakiMiko> sentences are fine, but i would use less caps and a period instead of an exclamation mark :3
3780 2011-06-27 23:51:00 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: other software will lose data forever, if password is lost
3781 2011-06-27 23:51:31 <luke-jr> it might be a good idea to consider a master key.
3782 2011-06-27 23:51:32 <Cryo> "barely"
3783 2011-06-27 23:51:39 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, make it red and flashing
3784 2011-06-27 23:51:48 <phantomcircuit> then laugh at the people who say "I didn't read it"
3785 2011-06-27 23:51:59 <gmaxwell> I'm not keen on "Are you sure you wish to encrypt your wallet?", since it sounds like we're cautioning against it.. which isn't quite right.
3786 2011-06-27 23:52:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: it uses a master key, but currently you can only set one password (via ui, supported on backend)
3787 2011-06-27 23:52:09 tower has joined
3788 2011-06-27 23:52:10 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not that
3789 2011-06-27 23:52:31 <gmaxwell> e.g. "escrow your password to Bob. Bob will recover your password for a 10 BTC fee"
3790 2011-06-27 23:52:33 <luke-jr> also encrypt everything to <client developers>, including the user's full legal name
3791 2011-06-27 23:52:34 darbsllim has joined
3792 2011-06-27 23:52:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: and you can theoretically make a backup master key incase you forget the password
3793 2011-06-27 23:52:49 <luke-jr> "Lost my password" could then be implemented by sending wallet + photo ID to devs
3794 2011-06-27 23:52:52 <Cryo> require pgp/gpg encryption key
3795 2011-06-27 23:53:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: we could...and then when I get hacked?
3796 2011-06-27 23:53:10 <BlueMatt> and the master key gets lost forever?
3797 2011-06-27 23:53:10 <WakiMiko> "warning: if you forget your passphrase your bitcoins will be lost forever"
3798 2011-06-27 23:53:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: obviously someone would keep it offline safe
3799 2011-06-27 23:53:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you keep that key totally offline, of course.
3800 2011-06-27 23:53:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3801 2011-06-27 23:53:29 <luke-jr> also, obviously give the user a checkbox to allow that
3802 2011-06-27 23:53:29 JackRabiit has joined
3803 2011-06-27 23:53:32 <gmaxwell> I'm willing to do recovery services, for a fee. I'm sure other people would be too.
3804 2011-06-27 23:53:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: luke-jr and when the nsa comes knocking?
3805 2011-06-27 23:53:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: comply.
3806 2011-06-27 23:53:42 <Cryo> WARNING and FOREVER
3807 2011-06-27 23:53:45 <gmaxwell> They get your wallet, of course.
3808 2011-06-27 23:53:46 JackRabiit has left ()
3809 2011-06-27 23:53:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I have no sympathy for illegal use of Bitcoin or anything.
3810 2011-06-27 23:53:56 <tcatm> random idea: make user write master key to paper, then (on next screen) ask user to enter it, then store it in a secure location before asking for the passphrase
3811 2011-06-27 23:54:14 <gmaxwell> ohh.. I like the make sure they wrote it down idea.
3812 2011-06-27 23:54:22 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's impossible
3813 2011-06-27 23:54:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I agree...but still dont think that should be added
3814 2011-06-27 23:54:27 <gmaxwell> I've been working on a better word list.
3815 2011-06-27 23:55:18 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's not. you give them a 16 word (128 bit) random alternative key that you force them to write down by making them enter it with it not displayed. (at least through the gui, cli users are on their own as they could copy/paste)
3816 2011-06-27 23:55:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: master private key could require 10+ parts
3817 2011-06-27 23:55:25 <BlueMatt> alright, well I suppose there appears to be enough support for this that Ill add it before merge
3818 2011-06-27 23:55:37 <gmaxwell> I've been working on a wordlist, btw.
3819 2011-06-27 23:55:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so the person who loses it has to get approval from people in multiple jurisdictions
3820 2011-06-27 23:55:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that would be ridiculously hard to recover wallets too then
3821 2011-06-27 23:56:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: better ridiculously hard than impossible
3822 2011-06-27 23:56:47 kruelsob has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
3823 2011-06-27 23:57:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: maybe for each part of the key, have 3  people who hold it
3824 2011-06-27 23:57:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: and when one guy goes on vacation, seriously this is getting kinda ridiculous, though backup key should work fairly well...I just dont like the fact that most users will store it plaintext in a word doc on their desktop
3825 2011-06-27 23:57:35 <luke-jr> so you need 9/27
3826 2011-06-27 23:57:49 <gmaxwell> So yea, escrow would be a nice feature to have. And I think we should have it someday. But forcing you to write a backup code down is a lot easier to code and more users will use that.
3827 2011-06-27 23:58:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it will end up  in the trash
3828 2011-06-27 23:58:14 <gavinandresen> The real problem is newbies will set a trivial password-passphrase when they start, because they have zero bitcoins.  Then be lazy and never change it, even if they accumulate thousands of dollars of bitcoins.
3829 2011-06-27 23:58:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you don't let them copy the backup pasword. They'd have to use a screenshot.
3830 2011-06-27 23:58:43 <prof7bit> can i please just have a passphrase and not all this over-engineered additional stuff?
3831 2011-06-27 23:58:46 <gavinandresen> (and they'll be lax about saving anything they write down, for the same reason-- no value to protect, why bother?)
3832 2011-06-27 23:58:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: thats one reason why I was ... hesitantly suggesting imposing a minimum length.
3833 2011-06-27 23:58:51 AgoristRadio has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3834 2011-06-27 23:59:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: well, you could request it to display the recovery code any time you want.
3835 2011-06-27 23:59:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: doesnt mean they wont just write it in word anyway
3836 2011-06-27 23:59:54 <gavinandresen> prof7bit: +1