1 2011-06-28 00:00:13 Tamo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
   2 2011-06-28 00:00:22 <iz> what if you have it prompt the user to change their password when the wallet's total exceeds a certain value?
   3 2011-06-28 00:00:43 <gmaxwell> It would be very unfortunate to deploy a system which will increase the amount of post coins.
   4 2011-06-28 00:00:44 <BlueMatt> iz: when you make users change their password often, they forget them easier
   5 2011-06-28 00:00:52 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt++
   6 2011-06-28 00:00:56 <iz> well, make it like.. 100 btc
   7 2011-06-28 00:01:13 <iz> so the new users w/ 0 bitcoins can have a stupid easy password
   8 2011-06-28 00:01:14 <gmaxwell> "damnit, I put in a good password initially, why are you asking me to change it?!"
   9 2011-06-28 00:01:28 <iz> but they will be prompted to change it once their wallet becomes valuable
  10 2011-06-28 00:01:50 <gmaxwell> iz: and an attacker with the old one will have already compromise it and have addrsses the users constantly reuse.
  11 2011-06-28 00:01:57 <iz> only 1 change, and only when they exceed the threshold from having a worthless wallet
  12 2011-06-28 00:02:03 <iz> ah, yeah.. good point
  13 2011-06-28 00:02:10 <tcatm> we could measure the password strength and display a notification (not a popup, just some text in red) if balance > X and strength < Y
  14 2011-06-28 00:02:20 <gavinandresen> Unencrypted to start (I wouldn't bother if my wallet had less than $20 value in it), with a one-time "you've accumulated lots of BTC, wanna encrypt now?" would be nifty.  Later.
  15 2011-06-28 00:02:42 <unclemantis> what is the length of a private key?
  16 2011-06-28 00:02:45 <prof7bit> the only (95%) reason why people forget passwords is when they click "remember password", we just don't need this option -> passphrase cannot be forgotten.
  17 2011-06-28 00:02:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: but ... again, their old addresses are then potentially already compromised at that point.
  18 2011-06-28 00:02:56 <BitcoinForNewegg> anyone here code for bitcoins?
  19 2011-06-28 00:03:03 <iz> would have to generate new wallet priv keys and xfer the bitcoins over though, due to what gmaxwell said:  the attacker would still have the keys
  20 2011-06-28 00:03:12 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: Thats not so. I've forgotten passwords that I typed several times a day after not using them for a few months.
  21 2011-06-28 00:03:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: true.  Checkbox to flush unused keypool keys and spend to new keys might be nifty, too.  Later.
  22 2011-06-28 00:03:23 <gmaxwell> (and I know other people have done the same)
  23 2011-06-28 00:03:44 joepie91 has joined
  24 2011-06-28 00:04:14 <iz> gmaxwell: have you done anything w/ that wallet idea you had?  for like.. f(seed+N) = key
  25 2011-06-28 00:04:16 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
  26 2011-06-28 00:04:25 <tcatm> is there any lib that can turn a text (i.e. a poem) into a passphrase that is a little resistant to spelling mistakes?
  27 2011-06-28 00:04:27 <gmaxwell> also, I would guess the time a user is most likely to forget it (other than a gap of long disuse) is initially after setting it.  "Congrats: you got a lot of btc! set a password now to make sure you've lost it by tomorrow!" :)
  28 2011-06-28 00:04:49 dbasch has joined
  29 2011-06-28 00:04:54 <BlueMatt> ok, whats the consensus here? vote on: a. backup passphrase autogenerated, b. and forced to retype after display; c. ask user to add/change pass when wallet reaches a certain value, d. nothing?
  30 2011-06-28 00:04:57 theorb has joined
  31 2011-06-28 00:05:08 <unclemantis> 51 characters for a private key?
  32 2011-06-28 00:05:11 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  33 2011-06-28 00:05:17 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  34 2011-06-28 00:05:28 bliket_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  35 2011-06-28 00:05:39 <gavinandresen> For right now?  Do the simplest possible thing that works.  So d. nothing.
  36 2011-06-28 00:05:59 * jgarzik agrees
  37 2011-06-28 00:06:00 <prof7bit> please not force me to change.
  38 2011-06-28 00:06:04 <gmaxwell> I don't think anything we've discussed requirs a deep change to the system.
  39 2011-06-28 00:06:10 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: do not force you to change what?
  40 2011-06-28 00:06:31 <prof7bit> not in the moment i cannot concentrate at a new passphrase
  41 2011-06-28 00:06:35 <BlueMatt> none of it is hard to implement, and as crypter is in a state of "need tests and ACKs for commit" adding new features isnt a big deal...
  42 2011-06-28 00:06:43 <prof7bit> change password
  43 2011-06-28 00:06:47 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: encryption is entirely optional
  44 2011-06-28 00:07:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: is it still AES-256?  that's what it looked like from your recent pull request
  45 2011-06-28 00:07:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, that a problem?
  46 2011-06-28 00:07:34 <gavinandresen> I think Dire Warnings to write down and not lose your passphrase is sufficient for now.
  47 2011-06-28 00:07:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: based on comments in the old pull request, it sounded like aes-128 was more secure
  48 2011-06-28 00:08:04 <prof7bit> i want encryption, i just don't want it to suddenly force me to make a *new* passphrase (change it) in the least convenient moment.
  49 2011-06-28 00:08:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I thought that was refuted
  50 2011-06-28 00:08:22 <gmaxwell> I had thought that AES-256 was less secure than expected but still more secure than AES-128.
  51 2011-06-28 00:08:28 <gmaxwell> But I haven't researched this.
  52 2011-06-28 00:08:32 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the second hunk on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/352/files#diff-16 look good then?
  53 2011-06-28 00:09:29 <prof7bit> i can remember a time when people were advised to NOT write down passwords.
  54 2011-06-28 00:10:36 <gmaxwell> Yes, and that would be bad advice here.
  55 2011-06-28 00:10:58 <gmaxwell> They should be advised to write it down and put it someplace secure apart from the computer.
  56 2011-06-28 00:11:02 XX01XX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  57 2011-06-28 00:11:02 <upb> yorick: btw i got the address verify in js to work :) https://github.com/AbrahamJewowich/bitcoinAddress
  58 2011-06-28 00:11:13 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: mutantmonkey's comment on the 2nd pull seemed to refute that, but maybe others who know more can comment
  59 2011-06-28 00:11:13 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: also, that was advice for passwords which were recoverable.
  60 2011-06-28 00:11:52 skeledrew has joined
  61 2011-06-28 00:12:00 glassresistor has joined
  62 2011-06-28 00:12:01 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  63 2011-06-28 00:12:01 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: barely is misspelled :)   And I'd change it to Use a passphrase that is four or more words long.
  64 2011-06-28 00:12:01 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  65 2011-06-28 00:12:01 <gavinandresen> (better to tell the user TO do something rather than telling them what NOT to do)
  66 2011-06-28 00:12:01 XXO1XX has joined
  67 2011-06-28 00:12:01 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: can't say, not an expert either :(   I just saw links from Bruce Schnier(sp?) talking about -256 weaknesses not present in -128
  68 2011-06-28 00:12:21 AgoristRadio has joined
  69 2011-06-28 00:13:02 <mrb_> I think the default number of iterations to derive the key from the passphrase should be a bit more than 25k
  70 2011-06-28 00:13:02 <gmaxwell> hm. these attacks on aes-256 actually loop pretty nasty.
  71 2011-06-28 00:13:03 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... so I only have to type the passphrase once to encrypt the wallet?
  72 2011-06-28 00:13:12 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: oh good point
  73 2011-06-28 00:13:28 <mrb_> the code benchmarked 25k rounds at 0.1s on a low end pentium
  74 2011-06-28 00:13:39 <BlueMatt> mrb_: and?
  75 2011-06-28 00:13:49 <gavinandresen> I'd suggest the Dire WARNING: dialog happen after setting the passphrase, and require that the user type it in again.
  76 2011-06-28 00:13:49 <mrb_> when UNIX crypt() was first introduced, it took a full second on a typical CPU at the time
  77 2011-06-28 00:14:16 <jgarzik> yeah, definitely want to prompt twice for passphrase
  78 2011-06-28 00:14:22 <gmaxwell> mrb_: this has to be done every send. (I'd proposed a scheme that split it into too parts, and cached one part in memory, but it wasn't liked :) )
  79 2011-06-28 00:14:22 <BlueMatt> mrb_: Im not sure, a ~5 yo laptop should be able to handle bitcoin fine imo
  80 2011-06-28 00:14:25 <gavinandresen> (and suggest that they tattoo it to their forearm)  (ok, maybe just sharpie, not tattoo)
  81 2011-06-28 00:14:31 <jgarzik> with all that a double-prompt entails
  82 2011-06-28 00:14:51 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  83 2011-06-28 00:15:11 <BlueMatt> anyone else think >25k rounds is better?
  84 2011-06-28 00:15:13 <mrb_> if a 1sec delay is not acceptable, then ok
  85 2011-06-28 00:15:19 <prof7bit> when people lose their passwords they cannot claim it on bitcoin, currently when they have their wallet stolen (or even if they somehow messed it up completely themselves) they can blame bitcoin for the lack of encryption and nobody could argue against it. when there is encryption and they forget the password they won't blame bitcoin.
  86 2011-06-28 00:15:20 arima has joined
  87 2011-06-28 00:15:55 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: They certantly can, — afterall we forsee this risk already.
  88 2011-06-28 00:15:56 <gavinandresen> prof7bit: .... they'll just blame bitcoin when a keylogger gets their password and wallet....
  89 2011-06-28 00:16:29 <gmaxwell> Yea, blame shouldn't be the primary driver here, just a tiebreaker. The primary concern should be protecting people's wallets against threats we have forseen.
  90 2011-06-28 00:16:56 arthurb has joined
  91 2011-06-28 00:17:09 <prof7bit> its the same with truecrypt, there are no long discussons, people have been told that they cannot recover it and if they come and whine about a lost volume just remind them and they run out of arguments.
  92 2011-06-28 00:17:33 ssalxs has joined
  93 2011-06-28 00:17:48 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: how many times has a truecrypt users been able to say they lost a half million dollars in value?
  94 2011-06-28 00:17:52 Tim-7967 has joined
  95 2011-06-28 00:17:52 Tim-7967 has quit (Changing host)
  96 2011-06-28 00:17:52 Tim-7967 has joined
  97 2011-06-28 00:17:58 <gavinandresen> Actually, speaking of that-- maybe the Dire Warning dialog box should warn that encryption doesn't make them invulnerable to malware.  Not that anybody pays attention to text in dialog boxes.....
  98 2011-06-28 00:18:07 <gmaxwell> We _will_ have that happen with bitcoin. We should at least be able to say we did what we could.
  99 2011-06-28 00:18:21 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: well, it's a chance to educate the few people who do read.
 100 2011-06-28 00:18:49 <iz> for a future version, maybe also have a onscreen keyboard that is mouse clickable for the password enter dialog
 101 2011-06-28 00:19:10 <tcatm> for keyloggers... what about an on screen keyboard with shuffled keys?
 102 2011-06-28 00:19:22 <mrb_> the # of rounds is definitely something that should be made user-configurable in the future
 103 2011-06-28 00:19:23 nhodges has joined
 104 2011-06-28 00:19:26 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 105 2011-06-28 00:19:30 <iz> tcatm: :D
 106 2011-06-28 00:19:37 <gavinandresen> "Bitcoin could start playing whack-a-mole with the bad guys-- they implement dumb keyloggers, so we implement an on-screen keyboard and you use your mouse to enter your password. So they implement a screen+keyboard+mouse logger"
 107 2011-06-28 00:19:45 nhodges has joined
 108 2011-06-28 00:19:57 <prof7bit> well, you cannot do more than tell them how it works and what will happen when they mess it up. its the same with half a million in cash. if you lose it then it is gone.
 109 2011-06-28 00:19:59 <iz> well, a mouse logger is hard to do
 110 2011-06-28 00:20:05 <iz> keyboard logger is easy
 111 2011-06-28 00:20:19 <upb> no its not
 112 2011-06-28 00:20:35 <tcatm> do operating systems provide write-only access to the framebuffer?
 113 2011-06-28 00:20:49 <jgarzik> some regions, sometimes
 114 2011-06-28 00:21:00 <iz> like for DRM stuff also, yeah
 115 2011-06-28 00:21:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: we should have the random OS best practice keyboard grabbing to prevent the dumbbest keyloggers. I assume truecrypt has code for this we can simply copy.
 116 2011-06-28 00:22:03 wilt- has quit ()
 117 2011-06-28 00:22:09 <tcatm> though on windows a trojan could probably read bitcoind's memory anyway
 118 2011-06-28 00:22:29 <jaromil> re: keyloggers - my pinentry pull req. was exactly about that. just FYI
 119 2011-06-28 00:22:31 <upb> and on linux it couldnt ?:P
 120 2011-06-28 00:23:02 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: if we wanted to take that "screw the users if they can't protect themselves" approach we could not bother with the encryption stuff. It's redundant. Keep your systems offline and use disk encrpytion.
 121 2011-06-28 00:23:03 <prof7bit> gpg asks for the password inside a DOS box
 122 2011-06-28 00:23:05 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: on the Mac, I believe the KeyChain does all that.
 123 2011-06-28 00:23:49 gsathya has joined
 124 2011-06-28 00:24:02 <prof7bit> gmaxwell: no, this is too extreme.
 125 2011-06-28 00:24:07 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: it really aught to be an OS-level service... anybody know if linux/windows have a solution for secure storage of application keys?
 126 2011-06-28 00:24:12 <prof7bit> this is sometrhing doifferent
 127 2011-06-28 00:24:29 <tcatm> another attack vector: malware clones bitcoin GUI and asks for password
 128 2011-06-28 00:24:58 <prof7bit> the intention of a password is not to screw them, its to give them a tool they need.
 129 2011-06-28 00:25:00 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: _what_ is too extreme.
 130 2011-06-28 00:25:02 wolfspraul has joined
 131 2011-06-28 00:25:14 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: giving them a warning? Thats too extreme?
 132 2011-06-28 00:25:40 <prof7bit> no, your comparison with "screw the users" and equal to no protection at all
 133 2011-06-28 00:26:09 <prof7bit> or worse than no protection or whatever
 134 2011-06-28 00:26:33 <upb> windows has protected storage in registry, but it can be read by an application if the user is logged in anyway
 135 2011-06-28 00:26:42 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: You've picked some arbitrary line and decided it to be good, as far as I can tell.
 136 2011-06-28 00:27:00 <prof7bit> offline computers is not realistic for an online currency. secure computers is not realistic with windows users.
 137 2011-06-28 00:27:07 Juffo-Wup has joined
 138 2011-06-28 00:27:25 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: Why is it okay to provide encrpytion to protect users who are not savvy enough to take better measures, but it's not okay to warn them of the well known threat of forgetting passwords which is, for most users, a _greater_ threat than theft?
 139 2011-06-28 00:27:30 <unclemantis> gavinandresen having a blast hacking away at your bitcointools trying to get the private key to display in base58
 140 2011-06-28 00:27:43 <prof7bit> the only thing that would at least make it not so extreme vulerable is to not write private keys to disk.
 141 2011-06-28 00:27:48 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: if your computer has a trojan that is bitcoin specific then encryption buys you nothing…
 142 2011-06-28 00:27:49 <gavinandresen> unclemantis: told you python is fun....
 143 2011-06-28 00:27:58 <prof7bit> i know.
 144 2011-06-28 00:28:06 <prof7bit> but its still better than nothing
 145 2011-06-28 00:28:33 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 146 2011-06-28 00:28:40 gsathya has left ()
 147 2011-06-28 00:28:40 <unclemantis> gavinandresen i was being half sarcastic LOL
 148 2011-06-28 00:28:46 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: and so is warning the user about password loss, and taking reasonable non-invasive measures to reduce that outcome.
 149 2011-06-28 00:29:09 <prof7bit> because troans that do that come only with a much smaller probability on the users compuer
 150 2011-06-28 00:29:17 <unclemantis> getting parsing errors when i try and run b58encode on that private key variable
 151 2011-06-28 00:29:31 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 152 2011-06-28 00:30:01 <upb> gavinandresen: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb432403(VS.85).aspx
 153 2011-06-28 00:30:15 bob2 has left ()
 154 2011-06-28 00:30:23 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: if it doesn't have some bitcoin logic it won't grab the wallet.dat at all, once metasploit pulls keys from memory they'll all work like that.
 155 2011-06-28 00:30:42 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: this is not a defense against the typical swisscheese security windows box.
 156 2011-06-28 00:30:47 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 157 2011-06-28 00:30:47 <prof7bit> i have nothig against the warning if it is not so scary that pwople actually dont use it. on the other hand i also don't care if people dont encyüt *their* walled even if it is possible.
 158 2011-06-28 00:31:41 ssalxs has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 159 2011-06-28 00:31:47 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
 160 2011-06-28 00:31:48 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: you should, because the loss of confidence in bitcoin resulting from frequent theft and from user anoyance due to being frequently targeted by hackers, degrades the value of bitcoin for everyone and hurts the whole project.
 161 2011-06-28 00:31:49 <prof7bit> you cannot take responsibility for other users. you can only give them the tools.
 162 2011-06-28 00:32:13 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: unlike disk encryption, bitcoin stops being useful to you if many other people aren't using it.
 163 2011-06-28 00:33:19 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 164 2011-06-28 00:33:26 mmoya has joined
 165 2011-06-28 00:33:38 earthmeLon has joined
 166 2011-06-28 00:33:38 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
 167 2011-06-28 00:33:38 earthmeLon has joined
 168 2011-06-28 00:33:57 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 169 2011-06-28 00:34:25 <prof7bit> but this would not impact confidence in bitcoin anymore: now: "somebody stole my money!" - "its because bitcoin wallet is insecure, they failed to provide this option"  -- and tomorrow: "i lost my password!" - "its not bitcoin's fault"
 170 2011-06-28 00:34:32 <tcatm> for insecure windows boxes and large wallets a small hardware device that asks for passphrase, decrypts the wallet and signs the transaction might work
 171 2011-06-28 00:35:05 <prof7bit> a lost password cnnot impct the confidence
 172 2011-06-28 00:35:18 <prof7bit> a missing security feature can
 173 2011-06-28 00:35:21 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: Well, if no one else _I'll_ be out loudly saying that it's bitcoin's fault if there was avoidable behavior in the software which encouraged loss which we could have, and did, reasonably forseen. So there you go. Existance proof.
 174 2011-06-28 00:35:50 vorlov has joined
 175 2011-06-28 00:35:54 <gmaxwell> tcatm: indeed, needs a screen to show the txn value and ideally the destination address.
 176 2011-06-28 00:36:40 Slix` has joined
 177 2011-06-28 00:36:47 RobinPKR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 178 2011-06-28 00:37:15 mmyjona has quit ()
 179 2011-06-28 00:38:17 <tcatm> gmaxwell: yep. a small 2x16 display should work for the prototype. keyboard connected via usb (later version will have a tiny keyboard built-in)
 180 2011-06-28 00:38:55 <Slix`> Display?
 181 2011-06-28 00:39:28 BlueMatt has joined
 182 2011-06-28 00:40:11 <BlueMatt> ok, now that the internet is back, new version pushed...https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/352/files#diff-16 comments?
 183 2011-06-28 00:40:11 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: if you want to be really helpful, do a google scholar search on best practices for passwords, and give us pointers to the top 2 or 3 papers.  There ARE research projects on what works and what doesn't, I just haven't had time to spend a day tracking it all down.
 184 2011-06-28 00:41:41 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * rc980dfd18531 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.cl: 3% improvement: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23067.0 http://tinyurl.com/3hnlmrg
 185 2011-06-28 00:43:15 <anakfr> What's the search space on bruteforcing the private key to an address? 2^64?
 186 2011-06-28 00:43:26 cryptocnt has joined
 187 2011-06-28 00:43:31 <anakfr> Or even 2^256?
 188 2011-06-28 00:43:37 <anakfr> How large is the private key?
 189 2011-06-28 00:43:42 <prof7bit> hardware device might be an *option* for a later release. but this should not delay (or even completely replace) the implementation of the passphrase dialog
 190 2011-06-28 00:43:58 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: you're ranting now.
 191 2011-06-28 00:44:07 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: no one said anything about delaying anything.
 192 2011-06-28 00:44:11 <BlueMatt> anakfr: 32 bytes iirc
 193 2011-06-28 00:44:23 <anakfr> Right, 256-bit key :'(
 194 2011-06-28 00:44:37 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: barely still misspelled...
 195 2011-06-28 00:44:45 <tcatm> prof7bit: it will be optional for those who want added security
 196 2011-06-28 00:45:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: still?
 197 2011-06-28 00:45:14 RobinPKR has joined
 198 2011-06-28 00:45:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: think so: search for bareley in   https://raw.github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/07982765c239f943454d8d4feae346108bbfa4f2/src/ui.cpp
 199 2011-06-28 00:45:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: fixed
 200 2011-06-28 00:45:53 <tcatm> what functions need access to the decrypted privatekeys? signing tx and keypoolfill?
 201 2011-06-28 00:45:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: no, I mean why the still, did you already tell me this?
 202 2011-06-28 00:46:06 <BlueMatt> tcatm: pretty much
 203 2011-06-28 00:46:07 BlueMattBot has joined
 204 2011-06-28 00:46:08 BlueMattBot has quit (Changing host)
 205 2011-06-28 00:46:08 BlueMattBot has joined
 206 2011-06-28 00:46:25 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: barely is misspelled :)  And I'd change it to Use a passphrase that is four or more words long.
 207 2011-06-28 00:46:52 <prof7bit> sorry, if i got understood it wrong. it just sounds all like there is some serious over-engineering going on and making a simple and urgently needed solution (that is already 1000 times better than nothing) unnecessary complicated.
 208 2011-06-28 00:47:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ah, sorry, my internet had cut out
 209 2011-06-28 00:47:41 <prof7bit> maybe this impression is wrong and passphrase will come in the next release
 210 2011-06-28 00:48:03 <tcatm> prof7bit: if you have a wallet with >1k BTC you start thinking about how to make it secure in case price increases 10x again :)
 211 2011-06-28 00:48:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I prefer to specify it in chars, for users who use pass-sets-of-chars instead
 212 2011-06-28 00:48:36 elnato is now known as midget
 213 2011-06-28 00:49:06 midget is now known as Guest78179
 214 2011-06-28 00:49:17 <prof7bit> of course. but at the moment i have only nothing (plus linux plus tryuecrypt (which also has only a passphrase)
 215 2011-06-28 00:49:39 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: I think you're taking varrious ideas far too seriously. People are throwing out thoughts to see if they inspire anything really useful.
 216 2011-06-28 00:49:39 <tcatm> prof7bit: you'll get simple encryption soon
 217 2011-06-28 00:49:54 anu has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 218 2011-06-28 00:50:05 <prof7bit> and still i am not comfortable having priv keys lying plain in a file on the file system
 219 2011-06-28 00:50:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok changed
 220 2011-06-28 00:50:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: "Enter the new passphrase to the wallet.\nIt is recommended that you use a passphrase of 10 or more random characters, or four or more words."
 221 2011-06-28 00:51:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: Don't be so polite.   "Use a passphrase...."
 222 2011-06-28 00:51:16 anu has joined
 223 2011-06-28 00:51:48 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: :-)
 224 2011-06-28 00:51:49 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: that seems to imply it will be enforced, which seems wrong to do?
 225 2011-06-28 00:52:01 <prof7bit> make one of these gauges that goes from red to green the more uppercase and numbers are in it
 226 2011-06-28 00:52:02 tower has joined
 227 2011-06-28 00:52:06 <gmaxwell> four or more words is probably too short, english is estimated entropy of 1.5 bits per character, 5 character words on average ~=30 bits.
 228 2011-06-28 00:52:32 <gmaxwell> I'm looking for research has gavinandresen suggested... less than I guessed there would be.
 229 2011-06-28 00:52:59 <gavinandresen> prof7bit: when we pull the QT GUI maybe then a red-to-green pw strength meter makes sense....
 230 2011-06-28 00:53:01 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: those gauges are often pretty crap. Simply using a lot of character classes isn't secure if the password is short.
 231 2011-06-28 00:53:11 <gmaxwell> (but yes, a good one would be good)
 232 2011-06-28 00:53:36 <gmaxwell> Then again, a good one will encourage users to set passwords the will not remember, its a tradeoff.
 233 2011-06-28 00:53:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: so Please instead of It is recommended that?
 234 2011-06-28 00:54:01 <BlueMatt> or still too weak?
 235 2011-06-28 00:54:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so how many words would you recommend?
 236 2011-06-28 00:55:39 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok, Please.
 237 2011-06-28 00:55:50 <gavinandresen> Just no passive voice crap.
 238 2011-06-28 00:55:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: eight, I suppose.
 239 2011-06-28 00:55:54 Lenovo01 has joined
 240 2011-06-28 00:56:29 <gavinandresen> "We would be honored if you would consider enhancing your security by selecting a suitable passphrase, for your comfort and convenience...." :-)
 241 2011-06-28 00:56:43 <BlueMatt> oooo, that one sounds great
 242 2011-06-28 00:56:45 <gmaxwell> hahah
 243 2011-06-28 00:56:59 <BlueMatt> "Enter the new passphrase to the wallet.\nPlease use a passphrase of 10 or more random characters, or eight or more words."
 244 2011-06-28 00:57:16 <gmaxwell> Can we clam better passwords save trees like the hotels do about towels?
 245 2011-06-28 00:57:32 <BlueMatt> lol, yep
 246 2011-06-28 00:57:48 <gavinandresen> Beauty.  Were you here for the discussion of a disclaimer on the re-enter passphrase dialog box to say that encryption doesn't protect from keyloggers?
 247 2011-06-28 00:57:58 conjre has joined
 248 2011-06-28 00:58:00 <BlueMatt> well, no we should encourage shorter passwords, shorter passwords offer slightly less cputime and will save trees
 249 2011-06-28 00:58:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: not sure, what was the result?
 250 2011-06-28 00:58:19 <gmaxwell> darn.
 251 2011-06-28 00:58:22 <tcatm> bitcoin saves tree already. no more need for printed bank notes. :)
 252 2011-06-28 00:58:30 phunction has joined
 253 2011-06-28 00:58:40 <BlueMatt> tcatm: good point, that should be on the homepage, save trees, use bitcoin
 254 2011-06-28 00:58:45 <gavinandresen> You mean you were busy actually writing code and getting stuff done?  WHat WERE you thinking?
 255 2011-06-28 00:59:31 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
 256 2011-06-28 00:59:36 darbsllim has joined
 257 2011-06-28 00:59:54 <gavinandresen> I think there was consensus that a little  "Note that encrypting your wallet will not protect you from keyloggers or other malware infecting your computer."   ... would help educate users that good computer hygiene is still critical.
 258 2011-06-28 01:00:07 Lenovo01 has left ()
 259 2011-06-28 01:01:41 <gavinandresen> Or maybe more accurately:  "Note that encrypting your wallet cannot protect your bitcoins from being stolen by malware infecting your computer."
 260 2011-06-28 01:01:54 agricocb has joined
 261 2011-06-28 01:01:55 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 262 2011-06-28 01:02:00 <gavinandresen> (do ordinary users know what 'malware' is?)
 263 2011-06-28 01:02:10 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 264 2011-06-28 01:02:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, and in which one, at this point I feel like we are discouraging encryption a bit too much...
 265 2011-06-28 01:02:33 <BlueMatt> if you add that line, people will say, well then wtf is the point, Im not doing this
 266 2011-06-28 01:02:38 <Evious> Warning: beware of pickpockets!
 267 2011-06-28 01:02:54 <BlueMatt> Warning: beware of common hazards
 268 2011-06-28 01:03:18 <gmaxwell> ftp://163.25.117.117/gyliao/TODylan/Password%20Memorability%20and%20Security%20-%20Empirical%20Results.pdf  < this is interesting if a bit soft. It's also confirming what we already knew:
 269 2011-06-28 01:03:28 <tcatm> The "Note that encrypting..." could appear in the "Encryption setup finished" dialog
 270 2011-06-28 01:03:41 <gmaxwell> That passphrases are easier to remember _and_ more secure than sufficiently memorable random passwords.
 271 2011-06-28 01:04:38 <BlueMatt> tcatm: then I feel like users will be like "well wtf did I do that?" and there is currently no "unencrypt wallet" thing (people seemed to say no to that, or do people want to change their mind?)
 272 2011-06-28 01:05:04 <prof7bit> maybe some variation of the airbag - car - accident comparison: does not prevent accidents (still have to drive careful) but might at least be able to save your life
 273 2011-06-28 01:05:10 <tcatm> BlueMatt: maybe, but at least their wallet is encrypted
 274 2011-06-28 01:06:58 Slix` has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 275 2011-06-28 01:07:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: good point, but I think it is best to be as straightforward and honest as possible. I don't want people using bitcoin to expect that they're protected because they see the magic 'encryption' word.
 276 2011-06-28 01:08:00 <BlueMatt> "Wallet Encrypted.\nRemember that encrypting your wallet cannot fully protect your bitcoins from being stolen by malware infecting your computer."
 277 2011-06-28 01:08:04 <BlueMatt> sound good?
 278 2011-06-28 01:08:12 MtGox_Adam has joined
 279 2011-06-28 01:08:12 <gavinandresen> :-)
 280 2011-06-28 01:08:26 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 281 2011-06-28 01:09:10 <prof7bit> "makes it harder but still not totally impossible for an attacker"
 282 2011-06-28 01:09:20 <prof7bit> a lot harder
 283 2011-06-28 01:09:22 <gmaxwell> s/fully//
 284 2011-06-28 01:09:35 <gmaxwell> Not a lot harder. It's still trivial if they are the right kind of attacker (someone with a trojan)
 285 2011-06-28 01:09:40 <gmaxwell> And impossible if they aren't.
 286 2011-06-28 01:09:42 <Diablo-D3> [09:06:30] <BlueMatt> "Wallet Encrypted.\nRemember that encrypting your wallet cannot fully protect your bitcoins from being stolen by malware infecting your computer."
 287 2011-06-28 01:09:49 earthmeLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 288 2011-06-28 01:09:54 <Diablo-D3> throw in a keylogger mention for extra scary
 289 2011-06-28 01:10:20 <BlueMatt> imo the point of that isnt for scary, its just a reminder that it cannot protect you
 290 2011-06-28 01:10:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but it does protect you against some malware which tries to steal the wallet, not all, but some
 291 2011-06-28 01:10:37 <gmaxwell> "Wallet Encrypted.\nRemember that encrypting your wallet cannot  protect your bitcoins from being stolen by malware or via keyloggers on your computer."
 292 2011-06-28 01:10:53 <AAA_awright> Why not scary?
 293 2011-06-28 01:11:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: malware that won't exist in six months because they will be copy and paste code to intercept it from memory/keyboard.
 294 2011-06-28 01:11:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: people are lazy...most malware will still be cat wallet.dat | mail as many users wont bother to go to Options->Encrypt Wallet
 295 2011-06-28 01:11:12 <gmaxwell> s/they/there/
 296 2011-06-28 01:11:33 <tcatm> I think with encrypted wallets users will more likely lose their bitcoins because of harddrive crashes than targeted attacks so it's a lot more secure than what we have now.
 297 2011-06-28 01:11:34 aristidesfl has joined
 298 2011-06-28 01:11:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Code is reusable. Reusing someone's awesome prefab wallet stealer is even more lazy. ::shrugs::
 299 2011-06-28 01:12:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: my perspective isn't really to argue that there is no protection, but that it's more conservative to not suggest protection exists which may not.
 300 2011-06-28 01:13:07 <gmaxwell> yes, in practice I expect this to make wallet stealing trojans a little less popular and successful than they would be otherwise, but as far as the user is concerned they should still consider themselves vulnerable to these things
 301 2011-06-28 01:13:34 <gmaxwell> "what do you mean I shouldn't have downloaded skeevyminer.exe and run it on my machine with 10000 btc??? I had _encryption_.
 302 2011-06-28 01:13:37 <gmaxwell> "
 303 2011-06-28 01:13:57 <ImRoot702> gmaxwell, lol... hey, anybody help me with a question about multiple wallets and and issue i'm having with addr.dat ?
 304 2011-06-28 01:14:14 samlander has joined
 305 2011-06-28 01:14:22 <gmaxwell> ImRoot702: hm? Don't ask to ask, just ask.
 306 2011-06-28 01:14:29 <gmaxwell> (and I'm about to head to dinner)
 307 2011-06-28 01:15:13 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you realize of course that as soon as you release this im going to write a trojan specifically for it right
 308 2011-06-28 01:15:14 <phantomcircuit> :P
 309 2011-06-28 01:15:27 tower has joined
 310 2011-06-28 01:15:44 * Zarutian shamelessly plugs one of his bitcoin addresses 1MYWGLJfR7W1tMez8ZVkgo8MR8o9sWJpSi ;P
 311 2011-06-28 01:15:55 <phantomcircuit> Zarutian, heh
 312 2011-06-28 01:16:06 <b4epoche_> is the ;P part of it?
 313 2011-06-28 01:16:16 <phantomcircuit> yes
 314 2011-06-28 01:16:21 <mrb_> IMHO the question of the number of rounds was brushed away too quickly. We have the opportunity to reduce by a factor 10 the number of wallet keys that will be successfully bruteforced in the future, by simply increasing from 25k rounds to 250k today. It takes multiple seconds to type a pw, so a ~1s delay (250k rounds) on a low end CPU isn't going to be much noticed. Bitcoin promotes state-of-the-art crypto, we should consider being an example of
 315 2011-06-28 01:16:22 <Zarutian> b4epoche: nope ;P
 316 2011-06-28 01:16:22 <phantomcircuit> he has the most interesting address in the world
 317 2011-06-28 01:16:23 <prof7bit> somethng along the lines "Wallet encryption does not solve all problems but it is the minimum you should do"
 318 2011-06-28 01:16:27 <mrb_> LUKS passphrase-encrypted disks is another example of app defaulting to a number of rounds consuming 1s of CPU time.
 319 2011-06-28 01:16:52 <Zarutian> phantomcircuit: mywig? yeah pure randomness that generated that
 320 2011-06-28 01:17:07 <phantomcircuit> that was a joke
 321 2011-06-28 01:17:09 <phantomcircuit> lol
 322 2011-06-28 01:17:34 Lenovo01 has joined
 323 2011-06-28 01:17:51 <Zarutian> so the topic du jure is the rampant lack of computer security, no?
 324 2011-06-28 01:17:55 <ImRoot702> aite.. well here's my problem/question... i'm maintaining two wallets in *.00x as in wallet.dat.001 and wallet.dat.002. along with wallet.dat, I'm i'm doing the same thing with addr.dat so... addr.dat.001 and addr.dat.002. if I link *.001 to wallet.dat and addr.dat respectivly and send money to the 002 wallet it works fine. but if I leave out the addr.dat file, it seems the bitcoins never show up. i hope that makes sense. anyway, i thought
 325 2011-06-28 01:17:55 <ImRoot702>  all you needed to backup was wallet.dat, but it seems addr.dat place some part. can someone shed some light?
 326 2011-06-28 01:18:06 * b4epoche_ is going to continually generate address until he gets one with his name in it
 327 2011-06-28 01:18:51 <ImRoot702> shit, wouldn't you know it... it just showed up.
 328 2011-06-28 01:18:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: theres a patch for that, google bitcoin vanity patch or smth like that
 329 2011-06-28 01:18:53 <gmaxwell> ImRoot702: you shouldn't be changing the addr.dat. Addr.dat is just for finding other nodes on the network. The reason "they never show up" is probably because you're just taking a while to find good neighbors.
 330 2011-06-28 01:18:53 <gavinandresen> mrb_:  10x improvement doesn't seem worth it to me, when adding one more character to your password/phrase gives at least a 26x improvement.
 331 2011-06-28 01:18:58 earthmeLon has joined
 332 2011-06-28 01:18:58 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
 333 2011-06-28 01:18:58 earthmeLon has joined
 334 2011-06-28 01:19:52 <ImRoot702> gmaxwell, ok... if i keep the addr.dat with the wallet.dat, the bitcoins show up in the 002 wallet almost immediately... if i leave it out of the file link, the shit takes a long time. :/
 335 2011-06-28 01:19:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: but you can have the 10x improvement on top of the 26x improvement. Basically whatever entropy you can get from the user, you can add to that with strengthening.
 336 2011-06-28 01:20:01 Faraday has joined
 337 2011-06-28 01:20:22 <riush> what happened to the idea of doing as many rounds that it takes x time on that specific machine it is done?
 338 2011-06-28 01:20:30 <gmaxwell> ImRoot702: just leave the addr.dat alone. If you're blowing it away you're blowing away your nodes memory of the network.
 339 2011-06-28 01:20:37 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 340 2011-06-28 01:20:39 <mrb_> riush: doesn't work because wallets move arounds from machine to machine
 341 2011-06-28 01:20:56 <riush> hm okay yeah
 342 2011-06-28 01:21:15 <gmaxwell> mrb_: eh, so if you move to a slower machine it ends up taking 20% longer, what the big deal? It stores the iteration count for a reason.
 343 2011-06-28 01:21:20 <mrb_> cryptsetup (LUKS) does determine the ideal number of rounds dynamically, but it makes sense for them to do that since a disk is rarely moved to another machine
 344 2011-06-28 01:21:34 <gmaxwell> FWIW, once this was in I was planning on submitting a patch to set the count when you chang passwords based on timing it.
 345 2011-06-28 01:21:48 <gmaxwell> I didn't think it was important to discuss past the point of saving the iteration count.
 346 2011-06-28 01:21:59 <phantomcircuit> mrb_, that's dumb, the ideal number of rounds isn't based on the speed of the current system, but based on the potential attackers system
 347 2011-06-28 01:22:06 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I like that approach.  Get something working, then iteratively improve....
 348 2011-06-28 01:22:10 <gmaxwell> mrb_: if you're unhappy with the speed on another machine just 'change' the password.
 349 2011-06-28 01:22:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not dumb: the user's tolerance depends on the current machine, you should use as much as the user will tolerate.
 350 2011-06-28 01:22:28 <mrb_> phantomcircuit: it is for convenience. the number of rounds is computed to be convenient to the end-user (<1sec)
 351 2011-06-28 01:22:31 <ImRoot702> gmaxwell, not blowing it away... just linking/unlinking keeping it relative to a specific wallet. I understand what you're saying that it is just an address book of known nodes.. but i'm curious about why it seems to make the transactions appear in the target wallet faster if I do maintain a relationship between addr.dat and wallet.dat
 352 2011-06-28 01:22:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its working, unless you have any interest in merging in the next 20 minutes, why not iterate now?
 353 2011-06-28 01:23:22 <gmaxwell> ImRoot702: it shouldn't. I think you're fooling yourself, or you're always transmitting one way and one wallet has crappy peers in the addr.dat
 354 2011-06-28 01:23:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I like doing the simplest possible thing that will work first.  Then you can benchmark against that (benchmark speed, benchmark user's reactions, etc)
 355 2011-06-28 01:23:24 <mrb_> basically make it as secure as possible, without being too annoying to the end-user
 356 2011-06-28 01:23:27 Leo_II has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 357 2011-06-28 01:24:01 <gavinandresen> ImRoot702: I agree with gmaxwell
 358 2011-06-28 01:24:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes i understand that, but if you're running it on a phone for example the iterations to 1 seconds are going to be pretty useless
 359 2011-06-28 01:24:22 <ImRoot702> gmaxwell, it is easy to fool myself, i agree.. I'll test it some more... thx
 360 2011-06-28 01:24:25 copumpkin has joined
 361 2011-06-28 01:24:32 <Mqrius> Just to check if I still make sense; you can generate the public key if you have the private key, no?
 362 2011-06-28 01:24:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: oh...well we are long past simplest that will work...ok well Ill stop iterating after I finish this one last thing then
 363 2011-06-28 01:24:39 <prof7bit> it will be cracked on a much faster machine
 364 2011-06-28 01:24:48 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: reset your password then. It would rebenchmark and reset.
 365 2011-06-28 01:25:14 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, kind of irrelevant since i dont use LUKS, nastyness with plaintext headers ;)
 366 2011-06-28 01:26:05 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, btw im going to attack your encryption in the most convoluted way possible just for fun
 367 2011-06-28 01:26:27 <phantomcircuit> should be neat
 368 2011-06-28 01:26:31 <b4epoche_> why not broadcast the password in clear text and let the miners verify it ;-)
 369 2011-06-28 01:26:55 * Zarutian give b4epoche a Look
 370 2011-06-28 01:27:03 <Zarutian> gives*
 371 2011-06-28 01:28:22 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 372 2011-06-28 01:28:41 earthmeLon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 373 2011-06-28 01:28:58 <b4epoche_> okay, maybe hash it a few times before broadcasting
 374 2011-06-28 01:30:03 <phantomcircuit> 0cb4478bd8f923599047301a7c0f61861f24519e71546c0b9d39e0bc2ee84d944410c4b749952c68933595e4c515b7679b381505331730492871d9d7345bfcac
 375 2011-06-28 01:30:06 <phantomcircuit> have at it
 376 2011-06-28 01:31:29 <b4epoche_> me?
 377 2011-06-28 01:31:49 <tcatm> can we reduce the signed tx to something the user can ener on a keyboard?
 378 2011-06-28 01:31:55 <tcatm> enter*
 379 2011-06-28 01:32:18 <appamatto> ;;bc,stats
 380 2011-06-28 01:32:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133605 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1466 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1476260.03050548
 381 2011-06-28 01:32:38 <Zarutian> tcatm: why? what do you have in mind?
 382 2011-06-28 01:32:39 <iz> prob too big to be efficient.. maybe a QR code or something
 383 2011-06-28 01:32:59 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
 384 2011-06-28 01:33:15 <tcatm> Zarutian: making an air-gapped device that does the decryption and signing
 385 2011-06-28 01:33:16 <BlueMatt> ok, as far as Im concerned wallet encryption is now finished then, jgarzik sipa tcatm gmaxwell comments acks?
 386 2011-06-28 01:33:25 <tcatm> BlueMatt: ack
 387 2011-06-28 01:33:42 Lenovo01 has left ("Leaving")
 388 2011-06-28 01:33:43 tower has joined
 389 2011-06-28 01:35:28 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I support increasing number of rounds so that it takes ~1s on an average cpu
 390 2011-06-28 01:35:52 * b4epoche_ is thinking about this password hashing on a phone...  say you only a few hashes internally for password verification, would it actually be safer to ask the network to do more hashes to verify?
 391 2011-06-28 01:35:55 <Zarutian> tcatm: I see, then I recommend QR-coded btc urls or that you patch the bitcoin node gui so you can make txn by hand. Having one predefine form to have entry-widget for the sign hash only.
 392 2011-06-28 01:36:14 sacredchao has joined
 393 2011-06-28 01:36:40 <tcatm> Zarutian: yes, but how do we get the signed tx from the device into the network?
 394 2011-06-28 01:37:08 <Zarutian> tcatm: the latter requires that the bitcoin node gui know of the pubkey whose priv key signing is perfomed by the airgapped device.
 395 2011-06-28 01:37:50 <devrandom> BlueMatt: sorry if I'm late with that comment
 396 2011-06-28 01:38:16 Leo_II has joined
 397 2011-06-28 01:38:21 <b4epoche_> does that make any sense at all?  I'm just really trying to understand these password security issues.
 398 2011-06-28 01:38:34 <Zarutian> tcatm: the former is trickier, it would require a point addressable lcd and webcam on the computer.
 399 2011-06-28 01:38:57 <Zarutian> tcatm: point addressable lcd on the airgapped device I meant
 400 2011-06-28 01:38:59 JackRabiit has joined
 401 2011-06-28 01:39:17 <BlueMatt> devrandom: frankly, I just realized you sent it like 10 secs ago (damn otr plugin dropping it to priv windows...) anyway, yea gmaxwell said he would patch to dynamically chose nRounds later, but gavin suggested to do that in a patch and not now
 402 2011-06-28 01:39:48 <Zarutian> tcatm: what kind of use cases do you have in mind? just run of the mill transfer x btc to y address kind of txns?
 403 2011-06-28 01:40:05 <devrandom> BlueMatt: it's hard to get users to type long passwords, so getting significant extra strength in other ways is nice
 404 2011-06-28 01:40:33 MtGox_Adam has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 405 2011-06-28 01:40:33 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I only sent that about a minute ago, you didn't miss anything
 406 2011-06-28 01:40:53 <tcatm> Zarutian: sending transactions from a wallet with >1k BTC
 407 2011-06-28 01:41:15 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yep, and I agree timing to get a good nRounds before 0.4 release should be added
 408 2011-06-28 01:41:25 * mrb_ is happy
 409 2011-06-28 01:41:36 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 410 2011-06-28 01:41:59 MtGox_Adam has joined
 411 2011-06-28 01:42:01 <dubbz82> nrounds?
 412 2011-06-28 01:42:06 * dubbz82 is a little lost on that...
 413 2011-06-28 01:42:20 JackRabiit has quit (Client Quit)
 414 2011-06-28 01:42:21 Guest78179 is now known as elnato
 415 2011-06-28 01:42:28 <Zarutian> tcatm: in the latter scenario I think that both the bitcoin node gui and the airgapped device make the same txn. The gui leaves a "space" for entering the signiture shown on the airgapped device.
 416 2011-06-28 01:42:33 <BlueMatt> dubbz82: iterations on derive
 417 2011-06-28 01:42:34 <Zarutian> tcatm: with me so far?
 418 2011-06-28 01:42:39 <dubbz82> ah
 419 2011-06-28 01:42:47 <tcatm> Zarutian: yes
 420 2011-06-28 01:42:49 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
 421 2011-06-28 01:42:54 earthmeLon has joined
 422 2011-06-28 01:42:55 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
 423 2011-06-28 01:42:55 earthmeLon has joined
 424 2011-06-28 01:43:07 DiSTANT187 has joined
 425 2011-06-28 01:43:07 <dubbz82> difficulty jumped WAY faster than i thought it would as of lately
 426 2011-06-28 01:43:34 tower has joined
 427 2011-06-28 01:43:41 <tcatm> Zarutian: basically, the air gapped device would output the scriptSig which is quite long... http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/0bde300106882ff2b98081419aa7465a64c00fbc4c2d573bf6593da8dc4cb489
 428 2011-06-28 01:44:02 <dubbz82> throw that into tinyurl automatically
 429 2011-06-28 01:44:02 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 430 2011-06-28 01:44:09 <Zarutian> tcatm: so you dont require the user to enter the whole txn, only the signiture. Now how the airgapped device is going to get the outputs info required is another problem that needs to be solved.
 431 2011-06-28 01:44:10 <dubbz82> and generate a tinyurl based on it?
 432 2011-06-28 01:44:13 puhc has joined
 433 2011-06-28 01:44:31 karnac has joined
 434 2011-06-28 01:45:00 <conjre> ;;bc;help
 435 2011-06-28 01:45:00 <gribble> Error: "bc;help" is not a valid command.
 436 2011-06-28 01:45:01 <Zarutian> tcatm: most of scriptSig is just the public key emmedded as a literal.
 437 2011-06-28 01:45:31 <iz> it's too bad that ipv6 addrs are 128 bits, but bitcoin addrs are 160
 438 2011-06-28 01:46:05 <Zarutian> iz: bitcoin addresses are actually sha1 hash of the destination public key
 439 2011-06-28 01:46:16 <Zarutian> destinations*
 440 2011-06-28 01:46:22 <Zarutian> keys*
 441 2011-06-28 01:46:26 <iz> oh.. what about fake out DNS to return IPv4 and IPv6 for a subdomain
 442 2011-06-28 01:46:31 <iz> 128+32 = 160
 443 2011-06-28 01:46:51 <iz> then ppl can send their bitcoin addrs as a dns lookup
 444 2011-06-28 01:46:59 <iz> send coins to iz.mysite.com
 445 2011-06-28 01:47:15 <Zarutian> iz: what for do you want mapping bitcoin addesses onto Internet Protocol addesses for?
 446 2011-06-28 01:47:33 <iz> instead of send coins to: 12qcNfVw52C81LZ48EVUZJiLfazPZEjsz7
 447 2011-06-28 01:47:46 <iz> but not even really using IP
 448 2011-06-28 01:47:59 <kunnis> iz   Then you have to worry about dns security
 449 2011-06-28 01:48:01 <iz> just using DNS to send the 160 bits of addr info
 450 2011-06-28 01:48:03 <Zarutian> I see, I recommend that you look into namecoin iz, as that makes that idea much more secure than current DNS
 451 2011-06-28 01:48:09 <iz> ah, yeah.. good pint kunnis
 452 2011-06-28 01:48:11 <iz> point
 453 2011-06-28 01:48:44 <kunnis> dns security is a bit dicey... it's improving, but I wouldn't want to build a finicial system on it... that's part of the reason we have to have ssl.
 454 2011-06-28 01:49:00 <BlueMatt> tcatm: can you post that ack to the mailinglist and/or github so that its recorded?
 455 2011-06-28 01:49:02 sabalaba has joined
 456 2011-06-28 01:49:07 <iz> yeah.. cache poisoning w/ the above idea would be evil
 457 2011-06-28 01:49:29 <kunnis> and not everyone uses dnssec
 458 2011-06-28 01:49:41 cenuij has joined
 459 2011-06-28 01:49:42 cenuij has quit (Changing host)
 460 2011-06-28 01:49:42 cenuij has joined
 461 2011-06-28 01:49:42 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is there any sane way to copy a lot of data without killing general IO performance?
 462 2011-06-28 01:49:52 <iz> yeah.. i agree.. critical flaw w/ that idea
 463 2011-06-28 01:49:54 <Zarutian> kunnis: not only ssl but yurls ontop of that. (Basicly urls with the fingerprint of the server pointed embeeded in it)
 464 2011-06-28 01:50:04 * luke-jr ponders a self-limiting rsync
 465 2011-06-28 01:50:45 <Zarutian> kunnis: http://waterken.com/dev/YURL/
 466 2011-06-28 01:50:58 <kunnis> What about the URL idea though... so like bitcoin://kunnis.whatever.com/   (which tacks on bitcoin.xml or something to fetch the data)
 467 2011-06-28 01:51:30 <Zarutian> kunnis: something like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/X-btc ?
 468 2011-06-28 01:51:53 <kunnis> have a url that the client auto tacks onto the end
 469 2011-06-28 01:52:06 <Zarutian> (the prefix x- in the scheme of the uris is optional)
 470 2011-06-28 01:52:09 <kunnis> and then fetches that page with "info" about payment detail
 471 2011-06-28 01:52:15 DiSTANT187 has quit ()
 472 2011-06-28 01:52:29 <kunnis> That way the payment detail could be more detailed then just the target address
 473 2011-06-28 01:52:38 <iz> ah.. i think he means more like.. a favicon.ico, but for bitcoin addrs
 474 2011-06-28 01:53:02 <iz> like a standard place to look in the webroot
 475 2011-06-28 01:53:07 <kunnis> so you could have "Pay your bill with bitcoin... click this link...  bitcoin://kunnis.rocks.com/1234567
 476 2011-06-28 01:53:11 <Zarutian> kunnis: read that wiki page ;-) and you see theymos and I thought of that ;P
 477 2011-06-28 01:53:44 <iz> that wiki page seems to be more about a URI scheme though
 478 2011-06-28 01:53:48 <kunnis> a few different ideas, if the same ideas come up to the same people, then it might not be bad.
 479 2011-06-28 01:53:59 <kunnis> why have a ugly uri scheme?
 480 2011-06-28 01:54:21 <kunnis> have it return xml/json/something when you hit the url.
 481 2011-06-28 01:54:24 <iz> i think they are slightly different ideas
 482 2011-06-28 01:54:32 <Zarutian> autohandling in smartphone that can scan QR-codes and DataMatrixes
 483 2011-06-28 01:55:02 <kunnis> QR code to URL to problem solved.
 484 2011-06-28 01:55:06 <iz> i think kunnis' idea is more like a favicon.ico or whatever
 485 2011-06-28 01:55:15 CheapScotsman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 486 2011-06-28 01:55:29 <luke-jr> kunnis: um, we already have bitcoin:
 487 2011-06-28 01:55:55 <kunnis> okay, I'm a noob.  I didn't know of that.
 488 2011-06-28 01:56:01 <luke-jr> kunnis: <a href="bitcoin:18NqHC8TTRMB4wba8JVCgmjiFBXc9QnW5e?amount=1X8">Send me 1 BTC</a>
 489 2011-06-28 01:56:01 CheapScotsman has joined
 490 2011-06-28 01:56:12 <nanotube> Zarutian: tcatm: seen https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/271 ?
 491 2011-06-28 01:56:24 <Zarutian> iz: so someone that can trick the webserver to run a snippet of code to change the file at that standard place in the webroot to point to him instead
 492 2011-06-28 01:56:25 <kunnis> but yeah, my first idea was more like a favicon.ico
 493 2011-06-28 01:56:36 <iz> Zarutian: yeah, that is a weakness
 494 2011-06-28 01:56:52 <iz> but they can make that file read only
 495 2011-06-28 01:56:54 <Zarutian> nanotube: I dont read the forum or the issue tracker much
 496 2011-06-28 01:57:21 <kunnis> iz  that doesn't do anything... just about every http server has built in rewriting now.  (even IIS!)
 497 2011-06-28 01:58:08 <iz> apache will bitch at you if the perms are wrong.. but maybe if you give something else higher perms
 498 2011-06-28 01:58:13 <Zarutian> nanotube: basicly what tcatm wants to build, no?
 499 2011-06-28 01:58:24 <nanotube> Zarutian: yes, indeed. :)
 500 2011-06-28 01:58:41 seventoes has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 501 2011-06-28 01:58:45 <nanotube> in its essense, all that's needed is tx import/export capability
 502 2011-06-28 01:58:53 <nanotube> everything else is dressing
 503 2011-06-28 01:59:42 <kunnis> datamatrix, aztec and QR should be able to hold a 160 byte address, I can look into that if you'd like... heck, you can cram that into code-128!
 504 2011-06-28 02:00:11 * kunnis deals a lot with barcodes IRL.
 505 2011-06-28 02:00:15 <Zarutian> tricky, as this device must basicly be harward memory architecture based to prevent exploits
 506 2011-06-28 02:01:14 <Zarutian> kunnis: what is your faviroute barcode symbology?
 507 2011-06-28 02:01:33 <kunnis> Code 128... so underappricated.
 508 2011-06-28 02:02:15 <kunnis> it's the bastard of symbologies.  It's much better then 3of9, but too few people use it.
 509 2011-06-28 02:02:23 <kunnis> everyone uses 3/9
 510 2011-06-28 02:02:53 <kunnis> but 3/9 sucks and has scan problems... yeah, it's a small odds, but you try doing inventory on 10,000+ items...
 511 2011-06-28 02:03:16 somuchwin2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 512 2011-06-28 02:03:16 seventoes has joined
 513 2011-06-28 02:03:28 <kunnis> MOre then you wanted?
 514 2011-06-28 02:03:47 earthmeLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 515 2011-06-28 02:03:54 somuchwin has joined
 516 2011-06-28 02:04:03 <Zarutian> kunnis: wasnt 3/9 chosen due to how simple the barcoder readers could be for it?
 517 2011-06-28 02:04:29 <kunnis> Yes...  then 5 years later code 128 came out (mid-80's I think)
 518 2011-06-28 02:04:55 <kunnis> yet everyone still uses the uber crappy 3/9, even though every barcode reader since 1990 can read it.
 519 2011-06-28 02:05:33 <Zarutian> fascinating
 520 2011-06-28 02:05:35 <kunnis> Plus most barcode readers now a day are 2d barcode readers, the extra complexity is no problem.
 521 2011-06-28 02:05:50 <kunnis> reading aztec is much harder then code 128
 522 2011-06-28 02:06:35 <kunnis> or the PDF---something I never remmember the number----   barcode that Fedex uses.   Most 2d scanners are built to read that and the UPS one.
 523 2011-06-28 02:06:57 <kunnis> they are high-density and have a lot of error correction.
 524 2011-06-28 02:07:24 <kunnis> As I said, I work with barcodes a bit.
 525 2011-06-28 02:08:02 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 526 2011-06-28 02:08:15 [7] has joined
 527 2011-06-28 02:08:27 <Zarutian> to crashly switch context: I am speculating how one would go about making a sequentail&combinatorical boolean circuit that can verify txns and tally up the btc's transfered to a spefic bitcoin address.
 528 2011-06-28 02:09:29 <kunnis> Use a database of some form, and query the data out?
 529 2011-06-28 02:10:50 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 530 2011-06-28 02:12:37 <Zarutian> kunnis: I was thinking more of what boolean circuit components a bitcoin txn verifier would need and how one can specify them from simpler logic gates.
 531 2011-06-28 02:12:39 CheapScotsman has joined
 532 2011-06-28 02:13:47 traviscj_ has joined
 533 2011-06-28 02:14:15 Lenovo01 has joined
 534 2011-06-28 02:14:30 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 535 2011-06-28 02:15:50 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
 536 2011-06-28 02:16:12 prax has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 537 2011-06-28 02:16:33 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 538 2011-06-28 02:18:17 * Zarutian takes a look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/8111e27905deda5c5415ed6b3c30ca944590a378/src/script.cpp and perhaps other sources.
 539 2011-06-28 02:18:26 vigilyn has joined
 540 2011-06-28 02:19:09 darin has joined
 541 2011-06-28 02:19:20 heistplay has left ()
 542 2011-06-28 02:20:56 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 543 2011-06-28 02:22:30 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 544 2011-06-28 02:22:49 octarine1 has joined
 545 2011-06-28 02:22:51 CheapScotsman has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 546 2011-06-28 02:26:29 torsthaldo has joined
 547 2011-06-28 02:27:04 aristidesfl has joined
 548 2011-06-28 02:28:54 CheapScotsman has joined
 549 2011-06-28 02:31:54 pixglen has joined
 550 2011-06-28 02:32:08 torsthaldo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 551 2011-06-28 02:32:50 ssalxs has joined
 552 2011-06-28 02:33:30 torsthaldo has joined
 553 2011-06-28 02:34:18 dissipate has joined
 554 2011-06-28 02:34:18 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
 555 2011-06-28 02:34:18 dissipate has joined
 556 2011-06-28 02:36:34 cryptocnt has quit (Quit: quit)
 557 2011-06-28 02:38:09 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 558 2011-06-28 02:38:33 Glasswalker has joined
 559 2011-06-28 02:38:44 skeledrew has joined
 560 2011-06-28 02:38:58 kudu has joined
 561 2011-06-28 02:39:19 <Glasswalker> Hey, so I'm working on a frontend/gui app for windows to make managing your wallet easy when running remotely over JSON-RPC. But I have a couple questions.
 562 2011-06-28 02:39:40 <Glasswalker> Up until this point I have only been doing "passive" parts of the UI. Now I'm getting into transaction creation. So I obviously want to work on testnet
 563 2011-06-28 02:40:08 <Glasswalker> If I toggle my current bitcoind server running on my dedicated server (on linux) to testnet in bitcoin.conf will it affect my current wallet?
 564 2011-06-28 02:40:23 <Nesetalis> i was just commenting in #bitcoin, some weirdness in my client.. no idea where i got 1 bitcent from... the 'category' is Generate... but i'm not generating, and anyway, its a single bit cent, not ~50 coins
 565 2011-06-28 02:40:39 <Glasswalker> Or do I need to setup a different bitcoin altogether to do dev on (actually might not be a bad idea anyway)
 566 2011-06-28 02:40:45 earthmeLon has joined
 567 2011-06-28 02:41:00 <Glasswalker> Also next question, in testnet, how do I go about getting some "test" bitcoins to use for transaction tests?
 568 2011-06-28 02:41:29 <Glasswalker> Lastly, if I create 2 payment addresses, can I send from one to the other? (to do test transactions) or do I need 2 completely different wallets to send between?
 569 2011-06-28 02:43:59 pyro-Der_ has joined
 570 2011-06-28 02:44:48 Lenovo01 has left ("Leaving")
 571 2011-06-28 02:44:52 <luke-jr> Glasswalker: you know that already exists?
 572 2011-06-28 02:45:17 <Glasswalker> luke-jr: it does?
 573 2011-06-28 02:45:31 pyro-DerWahre- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 574 2011-06-28 02:45:35 <luke-jr> Glasswalker: Spesmilo
 575 2011-06-28 02:45:58 <Glasswalker> Oh right, yeah tried it. #1, had a hard time getting it working, #2, I was not all that impressed with the interface, or it's features
 576 2011-06-28 02:46:33 <Glasswalker> I'm hoping to improve on that design a bit ;)
 577 2011-06-28 02:46:49 <luke-jr> patches welcome
 578 2011-06-28 02:47:19 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
 579 2011-06-28 02:47:49 <Nesetalis> anyway... why did i just randomly generate 0.01 BTC? :p
 580 2011-06-28 02:47:58 <Glasswalker> Lol Fair enough luke-jr :)
 581 2011-06-28 02:48:11 <Glasswalker> I would offer patches to yours, but I'm not a big python coder.
 582 2011-06-28 02:48:17 <Glasswalker> I'm more comfortable in .Net these days
 583 2011-06-28 02:48:23 <luke-jr> oh well
 584 2011-06-28 02:48:30 <Nesetalis> escape the MS, come to python, it loves you :O
 585 2011-06-28 02:48:30 <Glasswalker> Also it's a fun challenge to build one up
 586 2011-06-28 02:48:32 <luke-jr> I don't use Microsoft garbage.
 587 2011-06-28 02:48:41 <luke-jr> trust me, JSON-RPC is not fun
 588 2011-06-28 02:48:47 <Nesetalis> and the mono guys are almost as bad.
 589 2011-06-28 02:48:56 <Glasswalker> lol yeah mono has had some drama lately
 590 2011-06-28 02:49:00 <Nesetalis> mhm
 591 2011-06-28 02:49:10 <Glasswalker> but .net is a slick platform, if it wasn't all horded IP by MS
 592 2011-06-28 02:49:20 <phrontist> glasswalker: is it?
 593 2011-06-28 02:49:34 <luke-jr> Glasswalker: no:P
 594 2011-06-28 02:49:35 <phrontist> I just interviewed with a .NET shop
 595 2011-06-28 02:49:52 <Glasswalker> I use .net because I'm required to for my job, and frankly I've come to love it. I can code in pretty much everything (including python if I wanted to take the time to try it out)
 596 2011-06-28 02:49:58 <Glasswalker> but I really love the .net platform
 597 2011-06-28 02:50:09 <phrontist> sell me on it
 598 2011-06-28 02:50:11 <Glasswalker> the IDE is fantastic, and the .net framework makes so many things SO easy
 599 2011-06-28 02:50:27 * luke-jr coughs
 600 2011-06-28 02:50:33 <Glasswalker> lol
 601 2011-06-28 02:50:35 <phrontist> are we talking about userspace applications or web development or what?
 602 2011-06-28 02:50:48 <Glasswalker> I personally do userspace dev in .net
 603 2011-06-28 02:50:52 <Glasswalker> as well as embedded dev
 604 2011-06-28 02:50:56 <phrontist> huh
 605 2011-06-28 02:51:07 <phrontist> what hardware, for the embedded?
 606 2011-06-28 02:51:19 <Glasswalker> I've been working on ARM chips, running the .net Micro framework
 607 2011-06-28 02:51:42 <luke-jr> LOLOL
 608 2011-06-28 02:52:08 <Glasswalker> luke-jr: why is that so funny?
 609 2011-06-28 02:52:33 oozyburglar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 610 2011-06-28 02:53:06 oozyburglar has joined
 611 2011-06-28 02:53:32 <Nesetalis> found it...
 612 2011-06-28 02:53:37 <Nesetalis> can anyone explain what happened here? http://blockexplorer.com/address/16BUCUqsgQrg9VxLbSCPbDrD2eXLqmE9tM
 613 2011-06-28 02:54:02 <JFK911> So if they put .net in ARM hardware like they did with java (jazz)
 614 2011-06-28 02:54:07 <Optimo> Nesetalis are you mining in a pool?
 615 2011-06-28 02:54:12 <JFK911> how will they deploy security service packs?
 616 2011-06-28 02:54:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 617 2011-06-28 02:54:13 <doublec> Nesetalis: someone generated a small amount of coins?
 618 2011-06-28 02:54:21 <doublec> Nesetalis: probably the eligius pool
 619 2011-06-28 02:54:23 <Nesetalis> yes i'm mining in a pool.
 620 2011-06-28 02:54:28 <Nesetalis> BTCGuild
 621 2011-06-28 02:54:34 <Optimo> that's your payoff, probably reached maturity after some time
 622 2011-06-28 02:54:38 vorlov has joined
 623 2011-06-28 02:54:39 <Nesetalis> er
 624 2011-06-28 02:54:44 vorlov has quit (Client Quit)
 625 2011-06-28 02:54:45 <Nesetalis> the payout comes differently
 626 2011-06-28 02:55:01 <conjre> is it coming to the wallet address you gave btcguild?
 627 2011-06-28 02:55:07 <Optimo> then maybe you used another pool briefely
 628 2011-06-28 02:55:22 <Glasswalker> JFK911: What do you mean security service packs? .net as a platform (at least since 3.5) hasn't had many "service packs" that have been for much more than added featureset or refinement of existing features.
 629 2011-06-28 02:55:22 <Nesetalis> nope
 630 2011-06-28 02:55:25 <Nesetalis> there is no 'from' address
 631 2011-06-28 02:55:32 <Glasswalker> Yes MS is known for having to patch the hell out of their software
 632 2011-06-28 02:55:33 <Nesetalis> and all the pools i get from, send it from them to me
 633 2011-06-28 02:55:34 hahuang65 has quit ()
 634 2011-06-28 02:55:35 hahuang65_ is now known as hahuang65
 635 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <conjre> ooo creepy
 636 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Nesetalis> the 'from' is 'generated'
 637 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Optimo> elligius is one that splits the bounty into separate generated ouputs
 638 2011-06-28 02:57:29 hahuang65 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
 639 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Glasswalker> but as a framework, .net is fairly solid.
 640 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Nesetalis> hm
 641 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Optimo> click on th tx list
 642 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Nesetalis> is there a way to check who found that block?
 643 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <samlander> i'll take it over java any day of the week
 644 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Optimo> you can see it's many recipients
 645 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <samlander> <3 c#
 646 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Glasswalker> Anyway, this is hardly the place to be discussing this. luke-jr: since you are one of the main devs on spesmilo, do you know how to use the testnet? (and to get bitcoins on it for testing).
 647 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Optimo> http://blockexplorer.com/t/3TYp99UY9R
 648 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <luke-jr> same way you use mainnet
 649 2011-06-28 02:57:29 * Glasswalker applauds samlander :)
 650 2011-06-28 02:57:29 <Glasswalker> luke-jr, so you need to mine them?
 651 2011-06-28 02:57:37 <Glasswalker> or have someone send them to you?
 652 2011-06-28 02:57:40 <luke-jr> yes
 653 2011-06-28 02:57:43 <Glasswalker> ahh
 654 2011-06-28 02:57:45 <Glasswalker> wierd
 655 2011-06-28 02:58:36 <Glasswalker> Well testnet's difficulty is far lower
 656 2011-06-28 02:58:51 <Glasswalker> so I should be able to mine some pretty quick if I point my miner at a local testnet connection for a bit
 657 2011-06-28 02:58:56 <Glasswalker> Thanks!
 658 2011-06-28 03:01:01 <JFK911> Glasswalker: there were a pile of security fixes for several .net verions on wu last tuesday
 659 2011-06-28 03:01:20 <JFK911> had to ngen again, etc
 660 2011-06-28 03:01:36 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 661 2011-06-28 03:01:37 <Nesetalis> hey luke-jr, is there a way to see what blocks eligius has solved?
 662 2011-06-28 03:01:53 CheapScotsman has joined
 663 2011-06-28 03:02:11 <luke-jr> Nesetalis: my pages have json data, and artefact2 has some fancy graphs
 664 2011-06-28 03:02:27 <Glasswalker> JFK911, Well hell, your right :) I apparently stand corrected
 665 2011-06-28 03:02:30 <Glasswalker> lol
 666 2011-06-28 03:02:50 darbsllim has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 667 2011-06-28 03:03:08 <Glasswalker> Either way, .Net Micro is a very minimalist version of the framework, meant for control systems, robotics, or small embedded data gathering solutions things like that. Security is not a huge concern really.
 668 2011-06-28 03:03:17 <Glasswalker> Provided you write your code with some level of sanity ;)
 669 2011-06-28 03:03:39 cryptocnt has joined
 670 2011-06-28 03:04:14 theymos has joined
 671 2011-06-28 03:04:49 <Nesetalis> ok it wasnt eligius
 672 2011-06-28 03:04:52 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 673 2011-06-28 03:05:12 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 674 2011-06-28 03:06:14 XXO1XX is now known as XX01XX
 675 2011-06-28 03:06:22 <JFK911> Glasswalker: well industrial controls are getting a lot of security attention lately
 676 2011-06-28 03:06:48 <conjre> ;;bc,help
 677 2011-06-28 03:06:48 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias (1 more message)
 678 2011-06-28 03:07:06 ThomasV has joined
 679 2011-06-28 03:07:15 <JFK911> i think if you put .NET in a television set, maybe you need it to be secure because it might be running a conditional access routine
 680 2011-06-28 03:07:21 dr_win has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 681 2011-06-28 03:07:39 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 682 2011-06-28 03:07:49 octarine has joined
 683 2011-06-28 03:08:04 dr_win has joined
 684 2011-06-28 03:09:23 <dubbz82> heh
 685 2011-06-28 03:10:13 <luke-jr> Nesetalis: what was it?
 686 2011-06-28 03:11:05 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 687 2011-06-28 03:11:05 <Glasswalker> JFK911, : True, but a lot of that comes down to very large scale systems on RTOS. .Net Micro isn't targeting that space. Secondly, on the few smaller scale systems that would have concerns of that nature, the problem wouldn't be the framework, it would be the code.
 688 2011-06-28 03:11:17 <Optimo> Nesetalis, maybe you had some work done as P-P-M and some as Proportional?
 689 2011-06-28 03:11:25 <Glasswalker> Pathes to the framework would mostly be to provide additional safeguards to prevent programmers from doing something silly.
 690 2011-06-28 03:11:44 karnac has joined
 691 2011-06-28 03:11:53 <Nesetalis> this showed up in my wallet a few hours ago luke-jr http://blockexplorer.com/address/16BUCUqsgQrg9VxLbSCPbDrD2eXLqmE9tM
 692 2011-06-28 03:11:55 octarine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 693 2011-06-28 03:12:00 <Optimo> and eligius, for example, if your balance is under 1.0 btc it waits a week to generate it
 694 2011-06-28 03:12:12 <Nesetalis> and as far as I'm aware BTCGuild doesnt split generation the way eligius does
 695 2011-06-28 03:12:13 <Glasswalker> It's MUCH easier to write insecure code in C or C++ than in .net and neither of those get security patches ;)
 696 2011-06-28 03:12:30 <Nesetalis> and thats the only pool ive been mining in for the past 3 weeks
 697 2011-06-28 03:13:22 <Optimo> the chnces of it being random address mixup is almost impossible, and the chances of you also being a miner is x bajillion
 698 2011-06-28 03:14:12 <Diablo-D3> LOL
 699 2011-06-28 03:14:13 <Diablo-D3> .net
 700 2011-06-28 03:14:14 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahaha
 701 2011-06-28 03:15:37 Raccoon` has joined
 702 2011-06-28 03:16:30 <dubbz82> Glasswalker, it's not all that hard to write insecure code in c#
 703 2011-06-28 03:16:37 <dubbz82> though in vb, they physically disallow it.
 704 2011-06-28 03:16:44 darbsllim has joined
 705 2011-06-28 03:16:50 <dubbz82> C#, you just gotta go in and enable it...
 706 2011-06-28 03:16:55 <theymos> Did you guys see this neat tx script? http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/t/d94WpjWLD This is apparently the first time a strange transaction has ever been redeemed anywhere (it killed testnet BBE for a long time due to a bug). The script is a clone of OP_CHECKMULTISIG.
 707 2011-06-28 03:17:00 <dubbz82> though all it is, really, is use of pointers.
 708 2011-06-28 03:17:06 <Glasswalker> dubbz82, : I didn't say it was impossible, just that it's MUCH easier to write insecure code in C/C++
 709 2011-06-28 03:17:31 <dubbz82> ...define "MUCH" though
 710 2011-06-28 03:17:42 blaz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 711 2011-06-28 03:17:42 <dubbz82> i can go in and enable it in c# in a matter of seconds.
 712 2011-06-28 03:17:43 <dubbz82> lol
 713 2011-06-28 03:17:58 <Glasswalker> buffer overflows, poor string handling, bad memory management, use of pointers in general
 714 2011-06-28 03:18:13 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 715 2011-06-28 03:18:16 <Glasswalker> all those things are core in C/C++ if you do it wrong, it's insecure (and in some cases unstable)
 716 2011-06-28 03:18:28 <dubbz82> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa288474(v=vs.71).aspx
 717 2011-06-28 03:18:28 <Glasswalker> in C# you have to go out of your way to encounter *most* of that
 718 2011-06-28 03:18:37 <dubbz82> just declare a class unsafe
 719 2011-06-28 03:18:44 <dubbz82> and you can use pointers to your heart's content
 720 2011-06-28 03:18:47 <dubbz82> lol
 721 2011-06-28 03:18:51 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 722 2011-06-28 03:18:52 <Glasswalker> right
 723 2011-06-28 03:18:52 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
 724 2011-06-28 03:18:58 <Glasswalker> but you have to go out of your way to do it
 725 2011-06-28 03:19:18 <Glasswalker> and simply being unsafe doesn't mean you loose all the advanced memory management, advanced string handling, and so on
 726 2011-06-28 03:19:26 <Optimo> tiger hashes *;*
 727 2011-06-28 03:19:27 <Glasswalker> that are inherant to the language
 728 2011-06-28 03:19:35 <dubbz82> true
 729 2011-06-28 03:19:36 <dubbz82> heh
 730 2011-06-28 03:19:39 <Glasswalker> :)
 731 2011-06-28 03:19:43 <Namegduf> Comparing C# and C/C++ on that point isn't really useful
 732 2011-06-28 03:19:48 <dubbz82> yea
 733 2011-06-28 03:19:48 <Namegduf> They're entirely different classes of language
 734 2011-06-28 03:19:52 <Glasswalker> I agree
 735 2011-06-28 03:19:57 <dubbz82> you CAN write the same sorta code in either
 736 2011-06-28 03:20:04 <dubbz82> but it's always gonna be less efficient in c#
 737 2011-06-28 03:20:04 <Namegduf> C/C++ is basically "cross platform assemply"
 738 2011-06-28 03:20:11 <dubbz82> just because the goddamned framework
 739 2011-06-28 03:20:12 <dubbz82> lol
 740 2011-06-28 03:20:25 <dubbz82> that being said, c# has it's uses
 741 2011-06-28 03:20:29 <Glasswalker> quite
 742 2011-06-28 03:20:30 <dubbz82> such as GUI stuff :P
 743 2011-06-28 03:20:32 <Namegduf> Most all language features have very straightforward mappings into assembly.
 744 2011-06-28 03:20:33 <Glasswalker> that's all I argue
 745 2011-06-28 03:20:42 <Glasswalker> I came from 15 years of C/C++ programming
 746 2011-06-28 03:20:48 <pixglen> can some1 advise me on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/199 ?
 747 2011-06-28 03:20:51 <Glasswalker> they have their purpose
 748 2011-06-28 03:20:56 <Glasswalker> as does Assembly (shudder)
 749 2011-06-28 03:20:58 <dubbz82> Namegduf, not c#, not vb, not .net c++, and not java.
 750 2011-06-28 03:20:59 <dubbz82> lol
 751 2011-06-28 03:21:11 <Namegduf> dubbz82: I was talking about C/C++
 752 2011-06-28 03:21:13 <Namegduf> So, yeah
 753 2011-06-28 03:21:24 <Glasswalker> and Java, Python, .Net and so on all have their uses
 754 2011-06-28 03:21:25 <dubbz82> heh
 755 2011-06-28 03:21:30 <Namegduf> If .NET C++ is more than C++ with a provided library, which wouldn't surprise me
 756 2011-06-28 03:21:30 <dubbz82> that's two languages
 757 2011-06-28 03:21:34 <Namegduf> Yes, it is.
 758 2011-06-28 03:21:38 <dubbz82> out of all of the commonly used ones :P
 759 2011-06-28 03:21:41 <Glasswalker> Hell I'm writing some neat largescale sever infrastructure in Go right now
 760 2011-06-28 03:21:42 Twoheaded has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 761 2011-06-28 03:21:47 <Glasswalker> and it's got it's uses as well
 762 2011-06-28 03:21:50 <Diablo-D3> .net c++ will scare the shit out of you
 763 2011-06-28 03:21:56 <Glasswalker> lol
 764 2011-06-28 03:21:57 <Diablo-D3> wait
 765 2011-06-28 03:21:57 <dubbz82> namegduf, you can compile it without the .net framework
 766 2011-06-28 03:22:00 <Diablo-D3> Im not being dragged into this.
 767 2011-06-28 03:22:06 <Glasswalker> lmao
 768 2011-06-28 03:22:08 <dubbz82> but it's still got it's uses for GUI hacking :P
 769 2011-06-28 03:22:12 <Diablo-D3> .net sucks, and you fucking patent whores can shut the fuck up
 770 2011-06-28 03:22:19 <Glasswalker> I never should have sed the damn words ".net" in an opensource channel ;)
 771 2011-06-28 03:22:21 <Diablo-D3> this is a FOSS channel, go take your closed source FUD elsewhere
 772 2011-06-28 03:22:24 <Glasswalker> now look what I've gone and done
 773 2011-06-28 03:22:24 <dubbz82> heh
 774 2011-06-28 03:22:37 <dubbz82> tbh, i do use the .net stuff
 775 2011-06-28 03:22:39 <lfm> pixglen: what do you wan tto know about it?
 776 2011-06-28 03:22:49 <dubbz82> just for the reason that it's easier to hack up stuff quickly
 777 2011-06-28 03:22:59 <Glasswalker> I'm going to go back to rapidly throwing together a gui in my pretty, easy IDE (which wishes to remain nameless for it's own safety) ;)
 778 2011-06-28 03:23:15 <dubbz82> yep.
 779 2011-06-28 03:23:15 <dubbz82> lol
 780 2011-06-28 03:23:35 skeledrew has joined
 781 2011-06-28 03:23:36 <dubbz82> if im gonna c/c++, it's gonna either be done in code::blocks or notepad++
 782 2011-06-28 03:23:49 <dubbz82> as for java....eclipse or die.
 783 2011-06-28 03:24:07 <Namegduf> Anyways, it's reasonable to suggest a high level language with good safety features could have been used for a reference implementation of a financial application.
 784 2011-06-28 03:24:28 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 785 2011-06-28 03:24:31 <lfm> Namegduf: too late now
 786 2011-06-28 03:24:39 <Namegduf> It is, yes.
 787 2011-06-28 03:25:10 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 788 2011-06-28 03:25:37 <cacheson> vim, bitches
 789 2011-06-28 03:25:44 <dubbz82> heh
 790 2011-06-28 03:26:00 <dubbz82> i'll take my syntax highlighting, kthnxbai
 791 2011-06-28 03:26:22 <dubbz82> that and i perfer gedit on linux
 792 2011-06-28 03:26:31 <cacheson> vim does syntax highlighting  :P
 793 2011-06-28 03:26:37 <lfm> editors are boring
 794 2011-06-28 03:26:39 <dubbz82> and edit in windows......yes, edit still exists in even win7
 795 2011-06-28 03:27:02 <cacheson> dubbz82: does win7 have gorilla.bas?
 796 2011-06-28 03:27:09 folklore has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 797 2011-06-28 03:27:12 <dubbz82> er...i think edit still exists in win7...
 798 2011-06-28 03:27:13 <dubbz82> lol
 799 2011-06-28 03:27:15 f33x has joined
 800 2011-06-28 03:27:35 <Glasswalker> QuickBasic 7.1 FTW!
 801 2011-06-28 03:27:37 <Glasswalker> lol
 802 2011-06-28 03:27:42 <Glasswalker> sorry couldn't resist
 803 2011-06-28 03:27:44 <dubbz82> heh
 804 2011-06-28 03:27:49 folklore has joined
 805 2011-06-28 03:27:56 <dubbz82> x86 assembly ftw?
 806 2011-06-28 03:27:57 <dubbz82> X_X
 807 2011-06-28 03:28:01 Twoheaded has joined
 808 2011-06-28 03:28:19 <dubbz82> actually i took a swing at assembly
 809 2011-06-28 03:28:25 <dubbz82> and couldn't quite get the hang of it :/
 810 2011-06-28 03:28:26 <lfm> dubbz82: but assembly in intel syntax or unix syntax?
 811 2011-06-28 03:28:33 <dubbz82> intel
 812 2011-06-28 03:28:37 <dubbz82> gotta write your own OS :P
 813 2011-06-28 03:28:40 <Glasswalker> lol dude, back in the day, I remember writing simple dos utilities by opening debug, and hand entering hex.
 814 2011-06-28 03:28:58 <Glasswalker> save file as .com and run
 815 2011-06-28 03:28:59 <dubbz82> heh
 816 2011-06-28 03:29:00 <pixglen> lfm: cdhowie says that: possibly including transactions you have already processed, if the latest block the last time you reconciled has since been orphaned
 817 2011-06-28 03:29:01 TheZimm has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 818 2011-06-28 03:29:05 <dubbz82> i still hex stuff from time to time
 819 2011-06-28 03:29:10 <lfm> the was a cool assembler in dos debug actuallt
 820 2011-06-28 03:29:17 <dubbz82> you gotta hex dreamcast games for example
 821 2011-06-28 03:29:26 <pixglen> lfm: why would checking all txn since a block sometimes catch old txn's?
 822 2011-06-28 03:29:26 <dubbz82> to take them from original discs
 823 2011-06-28 03:29:29 <dubbz82> to make em bootable
 824 2011-06-28 03:29:30 <dubbz82> :P
 825 2011-06-28 03:29:57 <lfm> pix if the specified block was in a fork that was superceded
 826 2011-06-28 03:29:58 <Glasswalker> dubbz82, but I'm not talking about editing hex, I mean hand writing a program entirely in hex. (as in directly in machine code)
 827 2011-06-28 03:30:07 <dubbz82> hah
 828 2011-06-28 03:30:08 TheZimm has joined
 829 2011-06-28 03:30:10 <dubbz82> that's pretty hardcore
 830 2011-06-28 03:30:20 <dubbz82> know some op codes then, eh?
 831 2011-06-28 03:30:21 <Glasswalker> only tiny little tools of course
 832 2011-06-28 03:30:21 <dubbz82> :D
 833 2011-06-28 03:30:29 <pixglen> lfm: does that mean the txn itself is invalid, or just that it appears again?
 834 2011-06-28 03:30:42 <Glasswalker> anything large I would write in actual assembly to make it readable lol
 835 2011-06-28 03:30:47 <samlander> glasswalker i remember running hex programs on the comodore 64
 836 2011-06-28 03:30:48 <pixglen> lfm: i'm assuming that txid's are globally unique right?
 837 2011-06-28 03:30:51 <samlander> i'd spend hours entering hex
 838 2011-06-28 03:30:58 <lfm> pixglen: either could happen
 839 2011-06-28 03:31:12 <Glasswalker> I'm actually considering building my own PC
 840 2011-06-28 03:31:14 <pixglen> lfm: ouch
 841 2011-06-28 03:31:16 <Glasswalker> from scratch
 842 2011-06-28 03:31:20 <samlander> except i didnt have the benefit of being able to save to disk.. i ran from ram
 843 2011-06-28 03:31:22 <dubbz82> tbh, i'm still kinda a code noob
 844 2011-06-28 03:31:24 <Glasswalker> including designing my own CPU, and writing an OS for it
 845 2011-06-28 03:31:28 <Glasswalker> just to relive the glory days ;)
 846 2011-06-28 03:31:29 <lfm> pixglen: normally the txn would appear again in another block
 847 2011-06-28 03:31:37 <dubbz82> i didn't even know HTML till like 4 years ago
 848 2011-06-28 03:31:38 <dubbz82> :P
 849 2011-06-28 03:31:39 <samlander> microkernel
 850 2011-06-28 03:31:46 <pixglen> lfm: how the heck do we sync up with a database then? ... is there any way of checking whether the txn became invalid?
 851 2011-06-28 03:31:53 <Glasswalker> Or I could port Minix to it or something lol
 852 2011-06-28 03:32:05 <lfm> pixglen: but if it was a "double spend" then it could be invalid
 853 2011-06-28 03:32:28 octarine1 has joined
 854 2011-06-28 03:32:38 <pixglen> lfm: if it is a double spend, does the txn come back but marked as invalid then?
 855 2011-06-28 03:33:26 <lfm> no, you just have to regognize it is spending from the same input txn
 856 2011-06-28 03:33:35 <pixglen> lfm: surely if the txn has a significant number of confirmations, it's practically as good as never being invalidated?
 857 2011-06-28 03:33:52 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 858 2011-06-28 03:34:00 <lfm> pixglen: ya forks should never be that long
 859 2011-06-28 03:34:31 octarine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 860 2011-06-28 03:34:44 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 861 2011-06-28 03:34:52 <lfm> pixglen: almost all forks are really just one block
 862 2011-06-28 03:35:01 MinerTE has joined
 863 2011-06-28 03:35:15 hachque has joined
 864 2011-06-28 03:35:44 <BitcoinForNewegg> if I have a hash that is 0x0  and I release it after someone releases a valid block, does mine overpower thiers?
 865 2011-06-28 03:36:13 DontMindMe has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 866 2011-06-28 03:36:21 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: there is already some txn you could claim
 867 2011-06-28 03:37:21 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: but if someone else gets it first, no you wont be able to double spend them
 868 2011-06-28 03:39:07 <pixglen> lfm: back to the original qn then, i might see a txn that I've seen b4 in a new block -- what exactly does this "seen again txn" represent?
 869 2011-06-28 03:39:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> could I send someone 1000 coins knowing I have 3 blocks calculated
 870 2011-06-28 03:39:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> and the second they give me the money after 1 confirmation undo the trade
 871 2011-06-28 03:40:08 <lfm> if it is exactly the same txn then it is just a reconfirmation of the txn for that fork so such a txn would be valid in both forks
 872 2011-06-28 03:40:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> i calculate 3 blocks without the transaction starting from the blockchain before the transaction
 873 2011-06-28 03:40:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> and send the coins to my other address in one of the blocks
 874 2011-06-28 03:41:24 <pixglen> lfm: ok ... if i were using the proposed listsinceblock to replay confirmed txn's into another database, i won't miss anything or double anything if I silently dropped any dup txn since the last block checked?
 875 2011-06-28 03:41:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> ok let me start over
 876 2011-06-28 03:42:01 <BitcoinForNewegg> we start at point XXX in blockchain
 877 2011-06-28 03:42:05 <pixglen> lfm: i.e. the dup txn won't have any different spend amounts or different inputs etc.
 878 2011-06-28 03:42:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> I calculate 10 new blocks, the 10th is sending all my coins to a new address
 879 2011-06-28 03:42:24 <BitcoinForNewegg> I do this in 1 second
 880 2011-06-28 03:42:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> i do not broadcast them
 881 2011-06-28 03:42:33 el_bb has quit (Quit: goodbye)
 882 2011-06-28 03:42:36 <BitcoinForNewegg> now I sell my coins for cash
 883 2011-06-28 03:42:43 <BitcoinForNewegg> he sees 2 confirmations
 884 2011-06-28 03:42:44 <lfm> pixglen: if you only do "confirmed" txn then you should not need to worry about forks. basiclly ignore txn in the most recent x block and wait till they show up at least x+1 blocks deep
 885 2011-06-28 03:42:50 <BitcoinForNewegg> and then I release my 10 blocks
 886 2011-06-28 03:43:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> ok he waits for 6 so its confirmed
 887 2011-06-28 03:43:30 <BitcoinForNewegg> but I release a 4 block longer chain after its 'confirmed'
 888 2011-06-28 03:43:41 <lfm> ya , by convention x = 6
 889 2011-06-28 03:44:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> so at XXX + 6 he sees its confirmed
 890 2011-06-28 03:44:19 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 891 2011-06-28 03:44:23 <BitcoinForNewegg> then I release blocks XXX+1-XXX+10 with a different transaction
 892 2011-06-28 03:44:35 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: sure, good luck with that, essentially to do that you would need more compute power than the rest of bitcoin combined. the old 51% rule
 893 2011-06-28 03:44:37 <BitcoinForNewegg> did I just undo it?
 894 2011-06-28 03:44:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> no
 895 2011-06-28 03:44:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> you woudl need to be patient
 896 2011-06-28 03:45:23 MinerTE has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 897 2011-06-28 03:45:38 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: patient?
 898 2011-06-28 03:45:39 <BitcoinForNewegg> I could wait a year until eventually I calculate 10 blocks, it has a good chance of happening with 10% of cluster
 899 2011-06-28 03:46:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> then when it happens I can execute my evil plan
 900 2011-06-28 03:46:39 <lfm> well you would fail the first 10 times and people would start to get suspicious and start to wait for 10 confirms
 901 2011-06-28 03:46:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> also DDOSing the major pools for 2 hours would help my odds
 902 2011-06-28 03:46:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> but it woudl work?
 903 2011-06-28 03:47:15 <lfm> I doubt it but go ahead try if you wish
 904 2011-06-28 03:47:15 <BitcoinForNewegg> the clients dont care about when they reciever a block, the hardest to calculate block chain always wins?
 905 2011-06-28 03:47:22 OpenOcean has joined
 906 2011-06-28 03:47:37 <BitcoinForNewegg> i dont plan to try, but I want to make sure I understand how the client works
 907 2011-06-28 03:47:53 OpenOcean is now known as Mad7Scientist
 908 2011-06-28 03:47:59 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: you can't save blocks.  you'd be forking the blockchain a year back in the past, which wouldn't do you any good
 909 2011-06-28 03:48:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> i mine for a year or so waiting for a time when I caluulate 10 blocks in 2 minutes
 910 2011-06-28 03:48:49 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 911 2011-06-28 03:48:58 <lfm> you said 6 but go on...
 912 2011-06-28 03:48:58 <BitcoinForNewegg> when that happens I quickly sell some coins and then undo the confirmed transaction
 913 2011-06-28 03:49:11 <BitcoinForNewegg> i calculate 10, they wait for 6, but it doesnt matter
 914 2011-06-28 03:49:48 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: the entire network doesn't calculate 10 blocks in 2 minutes
 915 2011-06-28 03:49:51 octarine has joined
 916 2011-06-28 03:50:06 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: gah, can you quit spamming bitcoin-development list with mtgox crap?
 917 2011-06-28 03:50:12 <BitcoinForNewegg> it has caluculated 2 blocks in less than 10 seconds before (recently)
 918 2011-06-28 03:50:19 <lfm> I expect you might have to wait more than 1 year for that event
 919 2011-06-28 03:50:23 <Eremes> some how i can't login to my MTGOX account
 920 2011-06-28 03:50:25 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: it is not bitcoin-exchange-support
 921 2011-06-28 03:50:31 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: where would you rather it go?
 922 2011-06-28 03:50:33 vigilyn has joined
 923 2011-06-28 03:50:38 <nhodges> can i have a bitcoin.conf with addnode params only?
 924 2011-06-28 03:50:41 <Eremes> tryting to reset the password but the email never arrived
 925 2011-06-28 03:50:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> lets say I have 10% of the coins and I am a government
 926 2011-06-28 03:50:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> i mean 10% of the power
 927 2011-06-28 03:50:54 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: and that happening is highly improbable
 928 2011-06-28 03:50:59 ewal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 929 2011-06-28 03:51:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> but if it did happen would it work, or does the client not allow it?
 930 2011-06-28 03:51:13 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: it's not going to happen 10 times in a row.  try waiting a couple thousand years
 931 2011-06-28 03:51:14 <pixglen> lfm: problem is that API listsinceblock only gives me the last block, so i would have note down all the unconfirmed txn's and then come back and confirm them
 932 2011-06-28 03:51:19 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: and that's two separate posts, hardly spam
 933 2011-06-28 03:51:26 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 934 2011-06-28 03:51:37 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: somewhere on-topic.  bitcoin-development is for core protocol type stuff (and apparently top-posting <sigh>)
 935 2011-06-28 03:51:42 octarine1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 936 2011-06-28 03:51:48 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: we really need a vendor-sec list for stuff like that
 937 2011-06-28 03:51:51 <pixglen> lfm: what happens if a txn is "unconfirmed" then? or does the confirmations just never rise above some small number?
 938 2011-06-28 03:51:54 <BitcoinForNewegg> okay imagine I rent out 1 hour of all the CPU and GPU power Amazon has to pull off my heist
 939 2011-06-28 03:52:02 <lfm> pixglen: you should keep track what block each txn is in
 940 2011-06-28 03:52:14 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya i'll stop sending it there, there just doesn't seem to be anywhere else appropriate
 941 2011-06-28 03:52:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> and redirect my pool into it
 942 2011-06-28 03:52:25 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: thanks
 943 2011-06-28 03:52:25 <pixglen> lfm: well i figured... hence the msg at the bottom of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/199
 944 2011-06-28 03:52:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> and a botnet
 945 2011-06-28 03:52:44 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: tho tbqh, after the rest of that balance in that post is gone i wont be looking at it anyways ;p
 946 2011-06-28 03:52:45 <pixglen> lfm: don't know enough around the innards of bitcoin to implement that myself though
 947 2011-06-28 03:53:01 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: imagine you can wave a wand, ok ....
 948 2011-06-28 03:53:12 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: the bitcoin network is the fastest supercomputer in the world by several orders of magnitude
 949 2011-06-28 03:53:25 <cacheson> so... good luck
 950 2011-06-28 03:53:55 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: we need a bitcoin full disclosure list
 951 2011-06-28 03:54:07 <lfm> cacheson: you sure of that? I didnt realize ...
 952 2011-06-28 03:54:13 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 953 2011-06-28 03:54:14 <jrmithdobbs> agreed, get gavin to add one to sourceforge?
 954 2011-06-28 03:54:23 traviscj has joined
 955 2011-06-28 03:54:26 <pixglen> lfm: can i not store the txid for unconfirmed and low confirmation txn's and check that again later? if the txn is rejected or whatever, what happens to it, does the txn get deleted?
 956 2011-06-28 03:54:33 <jrmithdobbs> call it vendor-sec or similar
 957 2011-06-28 03:54:33 <cacheson> lfm: last I heard it was faster than the top 50 combined, and has grown since then
 958 2011-06-28 03:54:54 gsathya has joined
 959 2011-06-28 03:55:13 <gmaxwell> lfm: using a rather spurious relation of MH/s to flops.
 960 2011-06-28 03:55:24 <lfm> pixglen: youd have to notice a conflicting txn, no it doesnt get  marked for you afaik
 961 2011-06-28 03:55:31 karnac has joined
 962 2011-06-28 03:55:48 <pixglen> lfm: conflicting txn? what does that mean?
 963 2011-06-28 03:56:06 <lfm> pixglen: a double spend
 964 2011-06-28 03:56:19 <pixglen> lfm: does it just mean the txn never gets a lot of confirmations?
 965 2011-06-28 03:56:32 <cacheson> gmaxwell: seems we should have the advantage in that spurious calculation.  you need hashes to attack bitcoin, not flops
 966 2011-06-28 03:56:33 <pixglen> lfm: i mean txid's are not re-used right?
 967 2011-06-28 03:56:36 <BitcoinForNewegg> the bitcoin network is slow as crap compared to supercomputers
 968 2011-06-28 03:56:42 traviscj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 969 2011-06-28 03:56:56 <BitcoinForNewegg> supersomputrs arent used cause they are fast, they are used cause they are fairly fast and have amazing interconnects
 970 2011-06-28 03:57:07 <lfm> pixglen: it would sit at 0 confirms. I am not sure if the gui client display shows it as a double spend or not.
 971 2011-06-28 03:57:25 <dubbz82> all you need is someone with access to say a few bluegene computers
 972 2011-06-28 03:57:32 <gmaxwell> cacheson: right, but if you're going to play that game I can point out that for just a few million you could fab out a mining asic an eclipse the current network.
 973 2011-06-28 03:57:35 <dubbz82> and the skill to write their own bitcoin client for it.
 974 2011-06-28 03:57:36 <dubbz82> lol
 975 2011-06-28 03:57:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> theres already SHA256 asics...
 976 2011-06-28 03:57:48 <gmaxwell> dubbz82: most of the big fast computers aren't especially good at mining.
 977 2011-06-28 03:57:49 <lfm> pixglen: if it had 1 confirm in a fork it would go back to zero
 978 2011-06-28 03:58:00 <gmaxwell> BitcoinForNewegg: existing SHA256 asics are uslessly slow.
 979 2011-06-28 03:58:13 <pixglen> lfm: ok... lemme nut out a reasonable algorithm to capture confirmed txn's using listsinceblock
 980 2011-06-28 03:58:15 <gmaxwell> BitcoinForNewegg: 1MH/s of mining ~= 1gbit/sec of general SHA256.
 981 2011-06-28 03:58:16 <cacheson> gmaxwell: I was responding to the idea of "renting out amazon" to attack bitcoin
 982 2011-06-28 03:58:16 <BitcoinForNewegg> its hash of hash + random data right?
 983 2011-06-28 03:58:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> how much random data?
 984 2011-06-28 03:58:30 <pixglen> 1. grab all txn's since the last block
 985 2011-06-28 03:58:31 <dubbz82> gmaxwell, they probably would be, just on grounds of the blatent amount of cpu power you're throwing at it
 986 2011-06-28 03:58:45 <pixglen> 2. drop any txn's that duplicate the ones already recorded.
 987 2011-06-28 03:58:48 <dubbz82> given it probably wouldn't be nearly as good as if they were gpu heavy setups though..
 988 2011-06-28 03:58:49 <dubbz82> lol
 989 2011-06-28 03:59:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> my point is with 10% of the network you can have a finite chance of undoing a transaction
 990 2011-06-28 03:59:08 <pixglen> 3. check for any txn's previously recorded to see if they have now the required # of txn's
 991 2011-06-28 03:59:32 <gmaxwell> You can do the math pretty easily enough, I don't know about bluegreen, but I know the cores in jaguar do about 2MH/s each.
 992 2011-06-28 03:59:43 <BitcoinForNewegg> supercomputers are not made for bitcoin
 993 2011-06-28 03:59:46 <lfm> pixglen: BitcoinForNewegg yes and you also have a finite chance of claiming those btc sent to the zero hash, good luck with that
 994 2011-06-28 03:59:52 <pixglen> not sure about step 2 -- should i replace the old txn or drop the new one -- are the dup txn's identical in most respects?
 995 2011-06-28 03:59:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> it would be like using UPS to get ur kids to school and back
 996 2011-06-28 03:59:58 <dubbz82> BitcoinForNewegg, i'm aware of that
 997 2011-06-28 04:00:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> even if thye stuck GPUs in them it woudl be useless
 998 2011-06-28 04:00:18 <lfm> pixglen: they are identical, yes
 999 2011-06-28 04:00:33 <dubbz82> unless someone wrote a miner optimized FOR them, anyways
1000 2011-06-28 04:00:34 <cacheson> BitcoinForNewegg: so my point is, on the supercomputer thing, renting amazon is going to be useless
1001 2011-06-28 04:00:47 <gmaxwell> so 448512 MH/s... for computer number 2.
1002 2011-06-28 04:00:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> any monkey can cable up 1000 high end servers in a room, but it takes skill to connect them with nanosecond latency 10 gigabit networks
1003 2011-06-28 04:00:55 <pixglen> sorry step 3 should be "check for any txn's previously recorded but unconfirmed to see if they NOW have the required # of confirmations"
1004 2011-06-28 04:00:56 <dubbz82> and even then, it'd probably still be a little...sketchy
1005 2011-06-28 04:00:57 <dubbz82> lol
1006 2011-06-28 04:00:59 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1007 2011-06-28 04:01:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> amazon has GPUs
1008 2011-06-28 04:01:12 <lfm> the net is over 1e13 hash/sec
1009 2011-06-28 04:01:26 <jrmithdobbs> it has teslas that suck at integer math
1010 2011-06-28 04:01:40 <pixglen> lfm: that sound reasonable to u? anything i missed in that?
1011 2011-06-28 04:01:58 <dubbz82> so what's the next step after consumer grade video cards
1012 2011-06-28 04:02:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> MOAR consumer grade video cards
1013 2011-06-28 04:02:14 <dubbz82> because it's hitting the point where it's ALMOST too difficult to mine on most consumer grade vid cards
1014 2011-06-28 04:02:24 <BitcoinForNewegg> lol its not even close
1015 2011-06-28 04:02:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> power costs $.03 per KWH
1016 2011-06-28 04:02:40 <dubbz82> ...maybe where you are.
1017 2011-06-28 04:02:41 <dubbz82> lol
1018 2011-06-28 04:02:45 <lfm> pixglen: sorry I cant say if it is good or not really without thurough annalysis.
1019 2011-06-28 04:02:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> industreal power does
1020 2011-06-28 04:02:53 <dubbz82> here it's like $0.12/KWH
1021 2011-06-28 04:03:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> when you use 5-10 MW for computers that dont require a standby grid its $.03
1022 2011-06-28 04:03:15 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1023 2011-06-28 04:03:16 <pixglen> lfm: no worries -- i just wanted to know roughly if i've covered my bases
1024 2011-06-28 04:03:57 <dubbz82> fair enough
1025 2011-06-28 04:03:58 <dubbz82> lol
1026 2011-06-28 04:04:53 <gmaxwell> BitcoinForNewegg: it's not that cheap anywhere in the US as I recall, make sure you add up the fuel and transport costs.
1027 2011-06-28 04:05:15 aristidesfl has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1028 2011-06-28 04:05:32 <lfm> gmaxwell: industrial pricing?
1029 2011-06-28 04:05:55 BaltarNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1030 2011-06-28 04:06:03 <pixglen> lfm: would double spending txn's always sit at confirmations = 0? is it possible for it to get some confirmations then wind back to zero?
1031 2011-06-28 04:06:08 kreal- has joined
1032 2011-06-28 04:06:08 <gmaxwell> http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
1033 2011-06-28 04:06:28 <gmaxwell> lfm: not even…
1034 2011-06-28 04:07:25 <jgarzik> mrb_: a bit old, but did you see you got linked in the Financial Times?  http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/06/21/600441/george-clooney-roils-the-bitcoin-market/
1035 2011-06-28 04:08:08 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1036 2011-06-28 04:09:05 <gmaxwell> pixglen: the network prevents double spending. If you try one will gain confirmations, and the other one will go away.
1037 2011-06-28 04:09:52 <pixglen> gmaxwell: what does go away mean? if i look for the txid in the client, it will not be there any more?
1038 2011-06-28 04:10:23 sacarlson has joined
1039 2011-06-28 04:10:38 <gmaxwell> I believe it just dissapears on the reciever side, I've not actually tried this so I could be incorrect.
1040 2011-06-28 04:11:40 <pixglen> gmaxwell, lfm: well deleting the txn on the receive would certainly be useful... is this the case then?
1041 2011-06-28 04:12:38 <gmaxwell> It's a pain to try or I'd try it right now just to be sure.
1042 2011-06-28 04:13:23 <pixglen> i suppose i could ask the question on the forums
1043 2011-06-28 04:13:38 Eremes has quit (Changing host)
1044 2011-06-28 04:13:38 Eremes has joined
1045 2011-06-28 04:13:47 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: go away means not get forwarded
1046 2011-06-28 04:14:12 <gmaxwell> Well, presuming you heard about it (which is unlikely but not impossible if launched at the same time)
1047 2011-06-28 04:14:33 <pixglen> jrmithdobbs: ok, suppose my client sees a txn in a block, and that txn is supposed to go away, later on if i look for that txn via its txid, what happens?
1048 2011-06-28 04:14:37 <jrmithdobbs> right the first one heard by a given node would be accepted
1049 2011-06-28 04:14:56 <jrmithdobbs> or the first one to get into a block if it gets into a block before the entire network hears about it
1050 2011-06-28 04:15:18 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: by definition it never goes away once in a block
1051 2011-06-28 04:15:42 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: assuming that block is not on the losing side of a fork
1052 2011-06-28 04:15:49 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: right, say you hear a txn and then you find the longest chain contains another one instead.
1053 2011-06-28 04:16:04 <pixglen> jrmithdobbs: lemme get this straight, if it is a double spend or erroneous txn, it still never goes away?
1054 2011-06-28 04:16:13 <jrmithdobbs> whether it actually ever gets purged from memory pool is a good question though
1055 2011-06-28 04:16:28 <jrmithdobbs> cause once in memory pool i don't think it ever gets re-validated
1056 2011-06-28 04:16:32 <jrmithdobbs> but not 100% on that
1057 2011-06-28 04:16:42 octarine has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1058 2011-06-28 04:16:51 <pixglen> jrmithdobbs: or r u saying that if it is in a block it is GUARANTEED not a double spend or erroneous txn?
1059 2011-06-28 04:17:03 torsthaldo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1060 2011-06-28 04:17:07 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: no, the second spend will never be in a block so the one that doesn't get into a block "goes away"
1061 2011-06-28 04:17:08 octarine has joined
1062 2011-06-28 04:17:23 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: yes that is what i'm saying
1063 2011-06-28 04:17:35 <gmaxwell> pixglen: a blockchain is GUARANTEED not to contain any double spends or "erroneous txn" within that chain.
1064 2011-06-28 04:18:04 <pixglen> jrmithdobbs: ok, so if i'm checking for the receipt of funds, and i see a new block, all those txn's are non-erroneous and non-double spends
1065 2011-06-28 04:18:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you know if memorypool ever gets re-validated?
1066 2011-06-28 04:18:10 <gmaxwell> However, at any given instant you are not completely sure that the current top of chain that you see will be in the eventual longest chain.
1067 2011-06-28 04:18:27 <theymos> gmaxwell: From the viewpoint of a lightweight client, this is not guaranteed. You need to have all of the blocks to verify this.
1068 2011-06-28 04:18:39 <jrmithdobbs> well, it has to get re-validated if the node that has it in it's memory pool gens a block because that generates validation on all the txns
1069 2011-06-28 04:18:39 <gmaxwell> Which is why the client waits until the txn is burries by 6 blocks before switching from "unconfirmed" to "confirmed"
1070 2011-06-28 04:18:40 torsthaldo has joined
1071 2011-06-28 04:19:19 <gmaxwell> theymos: it's validated by the later headers extending it.
1072 2011-06-28 04:19:44 <folklore> why they log this channel
1073 2011-06-28 04:19:46 <gmaxwell> theymos: unless the majority of the hash power has decided to validate and extend blocks with 'double spends or "erroneous txn"'
1074 2011-06-28 04:19:49 <pixglen> gmaxwell: interesting... so each block doesn't actually have a list of txn's to confirm, but the mere fact that x blocks follow after the block with this txn means that the txn has x confirmations?
1075 2011-06-28 04:19:55 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
1076 2011-06-28 04:20:04 <nhodges> anyone know if i can have a bitcoin.conf with just addnode settings
1077 2011-06-28 04:20:12 <jrmithdobbs> pixglen: right
1078 2011-06-28 04:20:19 <gmaxwell> pixglen: each block confirms the txn in it as well as the _entire_ past history of the network because the blocks form a chain.
1079 2011-06-28 04:20:35 <gmaxwell> nhodges: er, I've never done that but I don't see why you couldn't.
1080 2011-06-28 04:20:53 gsathya has left ()
1081 2011-06-28 04:21:09 hachque has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1082 2011-06-28 04:21:33 <theymos> gmaxwell: So it's not _guaranteed_, then.
1083 2011-06-28 04:22:15 hachque has joined
1084 2011-06-28 04:22:18 <pixglen> gmaxwell: why then does the top of the chain (the top block or the top 6 blocks??) are considered unconfirmed?
1085 2011-06-28 04:22:38 <nhodges> cool will test
1086 2011-06-28 04:22:43 freakazoid has joined
1087 2011-06-28 04:22:44 <gmaxwell> theymos: Well, I suppose thats fair but you're going to be absolute then nothing is _guaranteed_, since I could have compromised ECDSA or the like.
1088 2011-06-28 04:22:58 <jgarzik> will nothing in life is guaranteed for all time :)
1089 2011-06-28 04:23:00 <jgarzik> *well
1090 2011-06-28 04:23:29 <gmaxwell> pixglen: because the blockchain could split and the blocks you think are the top could be thrown out.
1091 2011-06-28 04:23:58 <pixglen> gmaxwell: ok... *thinks*
1092 2011-06-28 04:24:11 <nhodges> bitcoin client seems to load back up fine with just addnode
1093 2011-06-28 04:24:20 <gmaxwell> The probability of this happening goes down exponentially (so long as we assume no collaborating group of attackers has >50% of the network hash power3)
1094 2011-06-28 04:24:37 <gmaxwell> pixglen: if you haven't read it, I strongly recommend http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
1095 2011-06-28 04:27:54 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1096 2011-06-28 04:27:54 relm9 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1097 2011-06-28 04:27:54 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1098 2011-06-28 04:27:54 Raccoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1099 2011-06-28 04:27:54 Backburn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1100 2011-06-28 04:28:38 lizthegrey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1101 2011-06-28 04:29:05 wump has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1102 2011-06-28 04:29:23 wumpus has joined
1103 2011-06-28 04:29:23 s13013_ has joined
1104 2011-06-28 04:29:23 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1105 2011-06-28 04:29:23 relm9 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1106 2011-06-28 04:29:23 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1107 2011-06-28 04:29:23 Raccoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1108 2011-06-28 04:29:23 Backburn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1109 2011-06-28 04:29:23 lizthegrey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1110 2011-06-28 04:29:23 wump has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1111 2011-06-28 04:29:23 cacheson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1112 2011-06-28 04:29:23 s13013 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1113 2011-06-28 04:29:23 wumpus has joined
1114 2011-06-28 04:29:26 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
1115 2011-06-28 04:29:32 dubbz82 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1116 2011-06-28 04:29:32 soap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1117 2011-06-28 04:29:32 RBecker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1118 2011-06-28 04:29:38 cacheson has joined
1119 2011-06-28 04:29:48 BlueMattBot has joined
1120 2011-06-28 04:29:57 <pixglen> much clearer about txn, errors and blocks now :-)
1121 2011-06-28 04:30:01 soap has joined
1122 2011-06-28 04:30:23 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: why would they avoid spending it, though?
1123 2011-06-28 04:30:37 RBecker has joined
1124 2011-06-28 04:30:39 relm has joined
1125 2011-06-28 04:30:43 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: it's not the person who mined that gets screwed
1126 2011-06-28 04:31:04 <freakazoid> it's whoever they paid, right?
1127 2011-06-28 04:31:11 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: I should have said "accepting payment" but the other way is true. You make a mess if you're not dishonest.
1128 2011-06-28 04:31:51 <freakazoid> ah
1129 2011-06-28 04:32:09 BB2 is now known as Backburn
1130 2011-06-28 04:32:11 <gmaxwell> And if you were intentionally dishonest you'll and up with people seeking whatever recourse people will seek— the courts in the land of the civilized, or guido breaking your harm if you prefer a more libertarian solution. :)
1131 2011-06-28 04:32:14 dbasch has joined
1132 2011-06-28 04:32:19 <gmaxwell> s/harm/arm/
1133 2011-06-28 04:32:21 <freakazoid> by "if you're not dishonest" do you mean if you are dishonest you don't care about the mess?
1134 2011-06-28 04:32:27 <freakazoid> hehe
1135 2011-06-28 04:33:01 sytse has joined
1136 2011-06-28 04:33:11 <gmaxwell> When there was a big fork created in the past due to a software bug, varrious anouncements were sent to hold off on processing payments.
1137 2011-06-28 04:33:23 <pixglen> if i'm polling the client for new txn's in blocks, does it make sense to poll more than once every 10 minutes, since the block generation rate is that? is that ever expected to change?
1138 2011-06-28 04:33:42 <gmaxwell> I expect in the future the client will also gauge the health of the network on its own and hold off telling you txn are confirmed if it looks busted.
1139 2011-06-28 04:34:04 <gmaxwell> pixglen: it's only once every 10 minutes on the long term average.
1140 2011-06-28 04:34:40 <pixglen> are the stats on the std dev of the rate?
1141 2011-06-28 04:34:45 <gmaxwell> pixglen: could be to blocks in a minute.. or take 30 minutes for a block.
1142 2011-06-28 04:36:11 vorlov has joined
1143 2011-06-28 04:36:17 <gmaxwell> pixglen: it's just an exponential distribution with a mean of ten minutes times the change in hashrate since the average of the last difficulty cycle.
1144 2011-06-28 04:37:07 <gmaxwell> If hashrate isn't changing then it's pretty well defined. Though hashrate has been growing a lot lately so its has tended to be fast.
1145 2011-06-28 04:37:49 <gmaxwell> (the system adapts to keep the mean at ten but the the adaptation lags)
1146 2011-06-28 04:37:56 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1147 2011-06-28 04:38:31 dubbz82_1 is now known as dubbz82
1148 2011-06-28 04:40:12 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1149 2011-06-28 04:41:41 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Nick Plante * rd8d8e37763db pushpool/ (msg.c server.c): fixes for OS X (byteswap / endian) http://tinyurl.com/3by9hyn
1150 2011-06-28 04:41:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Nick Plante * rb986da01b0db pushpool/ (Makefile.am configure.ac): libargp-standalone is required on OS X / FreeBSD http://tinyurl.com/3oartco
1151 2011-06-28 04:41:43 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Nick Plante * rff28ca26b8a2 pushpool/server.c: OSByteOrder.h required for OS X http://tinyurl.com/3duppyw
1152 2011-06-28 04:41:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * re1d341314689 pushpool/ (Makefile.am configure.ac msg.c server.c): Merge pull request #33 from zapnap/master http://tinyurl.com/3lsggev
1153 2011-06-28 04:43:45 scott`_ has quit (Quit: scott`_)
1154 2011-06-28 04:46:52 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1155 2011-06-28 04:47:33 aristidesfl has joined
1156 2011-06-28 04:49:40 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1157 2011-06-28 04:50:22 ThomasV has joined
1158 2011-06-28 04:53:24 folklore has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1159 2011-06-28 04:55:08 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1160 2011-06-28 04:57:37 <dubbz82> jeez...bitmarket's api is fugly...lol
1161 2011-06-28 04:57:38 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1162 2011-06-28 04:58:14 nocreativenick1 has joined
1163 2011-06-28 04:58:57 rushmore has joined
1164 2011-06-28 05:02:46 xtalmath has joined
1165 2011-06-28 05:04:04 x6763 has joined
1166 2011-06-28 05:04:28 rushmore has quit ()
1167 2011-06-28 05:05:17 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1168 2011-06-28 05:07:35 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
1169 2011-06-28 05:08:00 <unclemantis> what is the deal with http://www.tradebitcoin.com
1170 2011-06-28 05:09:59 cypher5001 has joined
1171 2011-06-28 05:10:08 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1172 2011-06-28 05:12:02 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1173 2011-06-28 05:12:33 Clipse-b has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1174 2011-06-28 05:13:02 Gekz has joined
1175 2011-06-28 05:13:02 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
1176 2011-06-28 05:13:02 Gekz has joined
1177 2011-06-28 05:13:20 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1178 2011-06-28 05:13:48 karnac has joined
1179 2011-06-28 05:16:34 Gekz has quit (Client Quit)
1180 2011-06-28 05:17:14 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1181 2011-06-28 05:17:34 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1182 2011-06-28 05:19:22 Nesetalis has joined
1183 2011-06-28 05:21:52 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1184 2011-06-28 05:25:16 Gekz has joined
1185 2011-06-28 05:25:16 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
1186 2011-06-28 05:25:16 Gekz has joined
1187 2011-06-28 05:25:44 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1188 2011-06-28 05:25:50 <jgarzik> bitcoins sent, last 24h:  4 million
1189 2011-06-28 05:26:22 josephholsten has joined
1190 2011-06-28 05:26:46 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1191 2011-06-28 05:27:35 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1192 2011-06-28 05:29:49 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1193 2011-06-28 05:30:31 <gmaxwell> wow.
1194 2011-06-28 05:31:35 xtalmath has left ()
1195 2011-06-28 05:37:27 conjre has joined
1196 2011-06-28 05:38:45 Fairuser is now known as AFK!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser
1197 2011-06-28 05:39:51 <coderrr> sigh, no love http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23354.0
1198 2011-06-28 05:40:50 phunction has quit ()
1199 2011-06-28 05:41:18 <cacheson> coderrr: your target audience probably wants to remain anonymous  ;)
1200 2011-06-28 05:41:42 <wumpus> coderrr: might be better to submit it as a github pull request, and the mailing list
1201 2011-06-28 05:41:48 <coderrr> cacheson,  hehe
1202 2011-06-28 05:41:55 <wumpus> coderrr: I missed it at least, forum is just too busy
1203 2011-06-28 05:41:55 conjre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1204 2011-06-28 05:42:03 <gmaxwell> coderrr: I commented to bump it, if nothing else.
1205 2011-06-28 05:42:15 <coderrr> haha thx :)
1206 2011-06-28 05:42:18 conjre has joined
1207 2011-06-28 05:43:09 conjre has quit (Client Quit)
1208 2011-06-28 05:43:18 <cacheson> yeah, I want it in mainline.  I'm far to lazy to patch and compile each release myself  :)
1209 2011-06-28 05:43:23 <cacheson> too*
1210 2011-06-28 05:43:49 conjre has joined
1211 2011-06-28 05:44:10 <wumpus> I think it'd certainly be welcome in mainline.. but the forum is just not the way to reach the mainline devs :)
1212 2011-06-28 05:45:24 Breign has quit ()
1213 2011-06-28 05:45:28 <gmaxwell> I do kinda wonder how advanced features like that won't crowd the mainline client an make it newbie unfriendly.
1214 2011-06-28 05:45:34 <wumpus> especially not "bitcoin discussion", it is just too full of trolls
1215 2011-06-28 05:45:36 <coderrr> really? i figured it'd be hell to get it into mainline
1216 2011-06-28 05:45:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I intend to add an 'advanced mode' to my (Qt) GUI
1217 2011-06-28 05:46:02 <gmaxwell> That said, I don't think being newbie friendly a long term overriding goal for the official client.
1218 2011-06-28 05:46:31 <wumpus> same as with, for example, MS office.. those features will be hidden by default unless advanced mode enabled
1219 2011-06-28 05:47:00 <gmaxwell> coderrr: hey, what happens when you have an input that pays to two of your addresses?
1220 2011-06-28 05:47:29 <coderrr> gmaxwell, what do you mean? you have two outputs that are both your addresses ?
1221 2011-06-28 05:47:42 fnord0 has joined
1222 2011-06-28 05:48:14 <gmaxwell> you have addresses 1A and 1B, I do a send many to pay both of them at once. Does it consider them connected?
1223 2011-06-28 05:48:35 <coderrr> oh, sendmany is only on RPC right ?
1224 2011-06-28 05:49:06 <wumpus> yes
1225 2011-06-28 05:49:09 <coderrr> well, it doesn't do any connection for outputs, only inputs
1226 2011-06-28 05:49:11 <gmaxwell> Yes. Though you could end up with something kinda like that by sending coin to yourself (one output to one address, another for change)
1227 2011-06-28 05:49:14 <coderrr> so 1A and 1B would be linked
1228 2011-06-28 05:49:25 evolute has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1229 2011-06-28 05:49:48 larsivi has joined
1230 2011-06-28 05:50:01 <coderrr> (except for change), it does link change to the inputs it came from
1231 2011-06-28 05:50:33 <coderrr> oh sorry, i misread what you said
1232 2011-06-28 05:50:39 <coderrr> 1a and 1b were outputs so they wouldnt be linked
1233 2011-06-28 05:50:50 <coderrr> just whatever in addresses taht were used to pay them would be
1234 2011-06-28 05:51:11 <gmaxwell> Yea, I suppose thats correct.
1235 2011-06-28 05:51:36 <coderrr> the whole point is to show you what addresses other people can reasonable prove you control
1236 2011-06-28 05:52:09 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure that linking change is always correct. Depending on the values you sometimes can't tell which output was the change. It's conservative at least.
1237 2011-06-28 05:52:21 <coderrr> right change is the gray area
1238 2011-06-28 05:52:31 <gmaxwell> it's sort of half-connected.
1239 2011-06-28 05:52:34 <coderrr> with change, at best theres a 50/50 you control it
1240 2011-06-28 05:52:39 <coderrr> at worst its prbly like 90+%
1241 2011-06-28 05:52:48 <coderrr> like if the outptus were 5.0 and 124.18
1242 2011-06-28 05:53:14 <gmaxwell> well sometimes you can tell.. e.g.  1.23456->[1.0,.23456] hmmm which one was change? :)
1243 2011-06-28 05:53:18 <coderrr> exactly
1244 2011-06-28 05:53:18 <gmaxwell> yea.
1245 2011-06-28 05:53:26 <coderrr> and also sceanrios where like
1246 2011-06-28 05:53:34 <coderrr> if later on two diff change addresses are used as inputs
1247 2011-06-28 05:53:47 <coderrr> now you can potentially link all the inputs from those previous txs
1248 2011-06-28 05:53:54 <gmaxwell> What you don't want to do is connect it with anything else. but e.g. if you had a bunch of change from group A you'd be better off to connect bits of that change with each other rather than togeather.
1249 2011-06-28 05:54:16 <gmaxwell> (like a tree of contamination)
1250 2011-06-28 05:54:18 <coderrr> yea  yea
1251 2011-06-28 05:54:22 <coderrr> yea exactly
1252 2011-06-28 05:54:26 <dubbz82> if anyone wants to see my piss poor excuse for coding...feel free
1253 2011-06-28 05:54:28 <dubbz82> https://dubbz82@github.com/dubbz82/Bitcoin-Price-Calculator.git
1254 2011-06-28 05:54:37 <dubbz82> oh ffs
1255 2011-06-28 05:54:45 <dubbz82> wrong shit copied to clipboard
1256 2011-06-28 05:54:46 <dubbz82> X_X
1257 2011-06-28 05:54:54 <coderrr> so ia lmost feel  like change isnt worth it, all things considered
1258 2011-06-28 05:54:56 <dubbz82> https://github.com/dubbz82/Bitcoin-Price-Calculator
1259 2011-06-28 05:55:00 <dubbz82> ...that instead
1260 2011-06-28 05:55:02 <dubbz82> X_X
1261 2011-06-28 05:55:09 <coderrr> like rather just send the change back to the input addr
1262 2011-06-28 05:55:27 <cacheson> coderrr: I've thought the same myself
1263 2011-06-28 05:55:45 <lfm> well the idea IS to make it hard to trace btc
1264 2011-06-28 05:55:48 <coderrr> but at least w this patch, it groups it with the inputs, so you can see it easily and its not a big deal
1265 2011-06-28 05:56:02 <coderrr> lfm, yea but in reality it seems like that doesnt really happen at all
1266 2011-06-28 05:56:15 <coderrr> especially w the default behavior of chosing inputs
1267 2011-06-28 05:56:22 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1268 2011-06-28 05:56:27 <lfm> ya but you dont want to make it easy to tell which is change
1269 2011-06-28 05:56:32 <gmaxwell> yea, the change actually reduces your anonymity right now, because it gets recycled back into spends from your other addresses fairly quicky.
1270 2011-06-28 05:56:38 Netsniper has joined
1271 2011-06-28 05:56:40 <coderrr> my guess is most ppl who have done a bunch of tx;s already have all teh adresses in their wallets linked together
1272 2011-06-28 05:56:51 <coderrr> yea
1273 2011-06-28 05:58:07 <coderrr> so im thinking of adding an option to the next version to basically do away with change, and always have it send back to the first input
1274 2011-06-28 05:58:20 <coderrr> which would just end up making the 'send form addresses' interface cleaner w/ less addresses
1275 2011-06-28 05:58:33 <lfm> coderrr: why would anyone want taht patch?
1276 2011-06-28 05:58:44 <gmaxwell> coderrr: coin selection which gave first preference to already contaminated inputs would be good if nothing else.
1277 2011-06-28 05:59:05 <gmaxwell> lfm: because the change is usually pretty identifyable and it ends up tainting your untained addresses.
1278 2011-06-28 05:59:27 <coderrr> lfm, right for reasons stated above, plus the issue of backups
1279 2011-06-28 05:59:38 <coderrr> oh and alternatively
1280 2011-06-28 05:59:38 <gmaxwell> E.g. you have addr A and B. You spend from A getting change in C with some obvious crazy fractional amount. Later you spend more and it uses C,B.  Now all your addresses are linked.
1281 2011-06-28 05:59:44 <coderrr> having many change ouputs rather than just 1
1282 2011-06-28 06:00:05 hipeople has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1283 2011-06-28 06:01:38 <lfm> seems more likely other things will happen that work the other way
1284 2011-06-28 06:02:02 <gmaxwell> coderrr: one interesting thing would be some script that took all the inputs available to crosslinked group and then refactored into into some send many transaction along with a payment, and most of the outputs actually going back to yourself but newly unconnected.
1285 2011-06-28 06:02:21 <coderrr> yea was just thinking about that
1286 2011-06-28 06:02:40 <coderrr> or if u wanted to be really anonymous be constantly sending back to urself
1287 2011-06-28 06:03:52 <lfm> so if I want to send an amount to someone I just send it around to my various computers a few time before sending to the target, I can claim I paid someone else and then they used it later
1288 2011-06-28 06:04:50 hipeopl has joined
1289 2011-06-28 06:12:21 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1290 2011-06-28 06:13:12 nus has joined
1291 2011-06-28 06:13:12 nus has quit (Changing host)
1292 2011-06-28 06:13:12 nus has joined
1293 2011-06-28 06:13:30 kW_ has joined
1294 2011-06-28 06:14:32 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1295 2011-06-28 06:17:08 wolfspraul has joined
1296 2011-06-28 06:18:18 kon is now known as Kothar
1297 2011-06-28 06:18:20 seventoes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1298 2011-06-28 06:20:28 seventoes has joined
1299 2011-06-28 06:25:39 Soak has joined
1300 2011-06-28 06:27:29 anu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1301 2011-06-28 06:27:34 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1302 2011-06-28 06:32:42 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1303 2011-06-28 06:34:34 d1234_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1304 2011-06-28 06:35:39 abragin has joined
1305 2011-06-28 06:35:40 abragin has quit (Changing host)
1306 2011-06-28 06:35:40 abragin has joined
1307 2011-06-28 06:36:22 DD- has joined
1308 2011-06-28 06:37:13 Faraday has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1309 2011-06-28 06:38:46 Kothar has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1310 2011-06-28 06:40:17 gjs278 has joined
1311 2011-06-28 06:40:57 cacheson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1312 2011-06-28 06:41:49 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1313 2011-06-28 06:43:07 Kothar has joined
1314 2011-06-28 06:43:32 <pixglen> does the 0.3.21 enforce txn fees on users, even when using the jsonrpc interface?
1315 2011-06-28 06:45:13 <luke-jr> older versions silently added the fee via jsonrpc
1316 2011-06-28 06:46:24 cacheson has joined
1317 2011-06-28 06:46:53 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
1318 2011-06-28 06:47:08 <pixglen> luke-jr: what do newer versions do then?
1319 2011-06-28 06:47:10 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1320 2011-06-28 06:47:29 <conjre> is that why you see 50btc+0.00xxx in block explorer when at the first entry of a block?
1321 2011-06-28 06:47:29 <jgarzik> pixglen: if you don't send < 0.01 BTC, there are no fees
1322 2011-06-28 06:48:04 <luke-jr> pixglen: error
1323 2011-06-28 06:48:10 <pixglen> jgarzik: ever? i thought there was some arcane rule about # of KB in a block or sumthin
1324 2011-06-28 06:48:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: yes there are -.-
1325 2011-06-28 06:48:39 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Client Quit)
1326 2011-06-28 06:49:31 <pixglen> luke-jr: is the txn fee arbitrarily imposed then? in newer clients?
1327 2011-06-28 06:49:40 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1328 2011-06-28 06:49:59 <lfm> ya it often seems arbitrary to users
1329 2011-06-28 06:50:02 <pixglen> e.g. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8153.0
1330 2011-06-28 06:50:07 <luke-jr> pixglen: afaik, it errors in newer clients
1331 2011-06-28 06:50:22 <luke-jr> lfm: it is arbitrary, by definition
1332 2011-06-28 06:52:08 <pixglen> hmm... the JSONRPC interface only has sendfrom or sendtoaddress w/o any txn fee mentioned, i suppose this is set by -paytxfee when running the bitcoind?
1333 2011-06-28 06:52:43 <lfm> you might suppose, trouble is its more complex
1334 2011-06-28 06:52:48 <pixglen> is the txn fee a fixed amount or a percentage?
1335 2011-06-28 06:52:58 <lfm> per kb
1336 2011-06-28 06:53:51 <pixglen> how would i know in advance how much the txn will cost?
1337 2011-06-28 06:54:01 <gmaxwell> someone out to update the wiki to make the amounts correct so people can be pointed at it...
1338 2011-06-28 06:54:15 <lfm> it changes every version
1339 2011-06-28 06:54:18 <luke-jr> pixglen: I think the error tells you
1340 2011-06-28 06:54:36 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
1341 2011-06-28 06:54:54 <lfm> gmaxwell: you know a way to explain to users how many kb a txn will take in advance?
1342 2011-06-28 06:55:36 <luke-jr> lfm: paying in pennies :P
1343 2011-06-28 06:55:41 <gmaxwell> lfm: no, ... and because the decision isn't stable... if you get a new payment you may end up with an entirely different required fee.
1344 2011-06-28 06:55:46 <pixglen> well, um, if i use the sendfrom or sendtoaddress API to send out a txn, does it fail immediately or do i have to check it every now and then? if it fails, how can i adjust the txn fee since the API doesn't have a txn fee changing method?
1345 2011-06-28 06:56:02 <luke-jr> pixglen: fails immediately
1346 2011-06-28 06:56:21 <lfm> pixglen: you cant adjust a txn
1347 2011-06-28 06:56:26 <gmaxwell> When did it just stop imposing the minimum fees automagically on the rpc?
1348 2011-06-28 06:56:28 <luke-jr> pixglen: JSON-RPC has a settxfee command
1349 2011-06-28 06:56:58 <pixglen> does settxfee mean the lowest fee, or will it always charge that amount?
1350 2011-06-28 06:57:13 <pixglen> luke-jr: not in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
1351 2011-06-28 06:57:17 <luke-jr> [02:51:26] <lfm> per kb
1352 2011-06-28 06:57:36 <luke-jr> pixglen: so add it
1353 2011-06-28 06:57:40 <gmaxwell> right. so e.g. its still magically tacking on the fee for outputs less than 0.01.
1354 2011-06-28 06:57:53 <gmaxwell> (which is what I thought)
1355 2011-06-28 07:00:11 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1356 2011-06-28 07:00:29 <lfm> and is there still fees for "new" coins vs "OLD" coins to try to penalyes the spammers?
1357 2011-06-28 07:01:53 <gmaxwell> Yes. The priority is still tx_value * input_age / tx_data < 510000 (iirc) = 0.0005 fee
1358 2011-06-28 07:02:39 <lfm> which is another fee that is almost impossible to explain to users
1359 2011-06-28 07:03:14 <conjre> so older coins cost more to send than newer coins? is that what I'm suppose to get from that?
1360 2011-06-28 07:03:27 <pixglen> ok, ok, so u're saying i have to send out a txn, check for errors like low txn fee, and bump up the txn fee and try again?
1361 2011-06-28 07:03:47 <jgarzik> pixglen: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
1362 2011-06-28 07:04:01 <lfm> conjre: nope, older coins are cheaper
1363 2011-06-28 07:04:30 <pixglen> jgarzik: i did read that, but wondered if it's been updated for the 0.3.21 client
1364 2011-06-28 07:04:45 <lfm> current is 0.3.23
1365 2011-06-28 07:05:10 <jgarzik> pixglen: 0.3.21 did not change anything fee-wise.  0.3.22 and 0.3.23 lowered fees from 0.01 btc/kb to 0.0005 btc/kb
1366 2011-06-28 07:05:38 <jgarzik> pixglen: but as long as you (a) aren't sending totally new coins or (b) aren't sending < 0.01 btc, you really should not be paying -any- fee
1367 2011-06-28 07:05:46 <jgarzik> pixglen: -paytxfee=0
1368 2011-06-28 07:06:14 <pixglen> jgarzik: but the settxfee JSONRPC call explicits says you cannot set it to zero
1369 2011-06-28 07:06:29 <lfm> wrong you can set it to zero
1370 2011-06-28 07:06:33 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1371 2011-06-28 07:06:33 <pixglen>         nAmount = AmountFromValue(params[0]);        // rejects 0.0 amounts
1372 2011-06-28 07:06:53 <jgarzik> pixglen: no, you are reading the code comment incorrectly
1373 2011-06-28 07:07:07 <jgarzik> pixglen: settxfee can be set to zero
1374 2011-06-28 07:07:12 <lfm> amount is not fee
1375 2011-06-28 07:07:42 AnatolV has joined
1376 2011-06-28 07:08:10 <pixglen> ok, it looks like some kind optimization so you don't have to call AmountFromValue on zero amounts... yes?
1377 2011-06-28 07:08:30 brunner has joined
1378 2011-06-28 07:08:41 <pixglen> int64 nAmount = 0 // is already set beforehand
1379 2011-06-28 07:09:44 <pixglen> jgarzik: how about if i'm sending coins that came in as 0.01BTC amounts, doesn't that make the txn large and require fees?
1380 2011-06-28 07:10:29 <lfm> pixglen: you can combine them into intermediat sizes first and do them all free
1381 2011-06-28 07:10:51 <gjs278> cpuminer segfaults for me when it loses network connection
1382 2011-06-28 07:10:59 <gjs278> on deepbit if that makes a difference
1383 2011-06-28 07:11:06 <gjs278> it consistently does it on any machine I use it on
1384 2011-06-28 07:11:40 <lfm> is that with long polling?
1385 2011-06-28 07:11:57 <gjs278> longpolling appears to be activated
1386 2011-06-28 07:11:59 <pixglen> lfm: how would i know if my coins came in that way though?
1387 2011-06-28 07:12:11 <lfm> pixglen: guess
1388 2011-06-28 07:12:27 <pixglen> lfm: can i tell how large a txn is going to be a priori?
1389 2011-06-28 07:12:33 <lfm> gjs278:  can you try plain getwork?
1390 2011-06-28 07:12:37 <gjs278> I didn't care before because I was running it on and off, but with that gpu miner that guy is making based off of cpuminer it's a showstopper
1391 2011-06-28 07:12:42 <gjs278> sure
1392 2011-06-28 07:12:51 <gjs278> I'll let you know
1393 2011-06-28 07:13:05 <pixglen> lfm: urk... it's fine if there's a human behind the sending, but I'm trying to write an automated process to do it and automated processes are very poor at guessing :-)
1394 2011-06-28 07:13:40 <lfm> ya that would be tougher
1395 2011-06-28 07:14:27 <lfm> pixglen: just set txfee to zero and let bitcoin add fees when It wants
1396 2011-06-28 07:16:30 <pixglen> lfm: ok, *trying not to look thoroughly confused* ... if i set txfee to zero, bitcoin may still add fees, and bitcoin may still reject the txn because of low fees??
1397 2011-06-28 07:16:38 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, who is mike hearn?
1398 2011-06-28 07:16:41 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ^
1399 2011-06-28 07:16:47 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: TD i think
1400 2011-06-28 07:16:58 <phantomcircuit> ah
1401 2011-06-28 07:17:21 * phantomcircuit goes back to work
1402 2011-06-28 07:17:31 <phantomcircuit> ps i hate php
1403 2011-06-28 07:17:37 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: TD
1404 2011-06-28 07:17:46 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: bitcoinj author, Google person, etc.
1405 2011-06-28 07:17:52 <pixglen> and um, i can inspect the txn via gettransaction to see if a fee had been assessed?
1406 2011-06-28 07:17:54 <doublec> pixglen: set an average fee for all transactions and charge that
1407 2011-06-28 07:17:54 <lfm> pixglen: like I said the fees are so complicated I dont really think anyone know how they all work. I know I don't
1408 2011-06-28 07:18:07 <doublec> pixglen: it'll be high for some, low for others, and hopefully break even for you as the merchant
1409 2011-06-28 07:18:09 <phantomcircuit> lfm, i know how mine work
1410 2011-06-28 07:18:20 <doublec> pixglen: that's the approach I've taken
1411 2011-06-28 07:18:22 <phantomcircuit> lfm, replaced all the fee logic with "pay nothing"
1412 2011-06-28 07:18:23 <phantomcircuit> hehe
1413 2011-06-28 07:18:30 <phantomcircuit> <-- willing to wait
1414 2011-06-28 07:19:14 <lfm> phantomcircuit: now if only the major miners and pools would see that (and the "spammers" would give up)
1415 2011-06-28 07:19:40 <phantomcircuit> eh my transactions get sent soon enough
1416 2011-06-28 07:19:46 <pixglen> doublec: i don't mind charging a % fee on user withdrawals and mebbe even minimal withdrawal amounts so that i don't get out of pocket, but would like to know how to find out the fee from the txn after it has been assessed, and also that the delivery is guaranteed
1417 2011-06-28 07:20:20 <phantomcircuit> lol
1418 2011-06-28 07:20:30 <phantomcircuit> <-- just realized im allowing BTC<->BTC trades
1419 2011-06-28 07:20:31 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
1420 2011-06-28 07:20:34 <doublec> pixglen: doesn't listtransactoins show it?
1421 2011-06-28 07:20:34 <lfm> phantomcircuit: Ya, I think Art Forz still send any txn thru free so so long as he has significant power they will get thru
1422 2011-06-28 07:21:14 <phantomcircuit> lfm, the truth is the matter is that transactions are only expensive with the current network design
1423 2011-06-28 07:21:32 <doublec> pixglen: so does gettransaction
1424 2011-06-28 07:21:43 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * r4c3a55a73612 pushpool/util.c: util.c: remove unused header http://tinyurl.com/6e9ran8
1425 2011-06-28 07:21:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * r47af5dfce70e pushpool/ (msg.c server.c server.h): Move byteswap compat gadgetry to common location server.h http://tinyurl.com/6fc6etf
1426 2011-06-28 07:21:46 <doublec> so you can find out after the fact
1427 2011-06-28 07:21:48 <doublec> but not before
1428 2011-06-28 07:21:55 <phantomcircuit> with a DHT and a better notification schema you could operate with very little fees
1429 2011-06-28 07:22:13 <phantomcircuit> (which is actually an argument for changing the coin generation algorithm)
1430 2011-06-28 07:23:17 <lfm> phantomcircuit: I expect bitcoin would have to totally fall apart before those basic sorts of things can be changed, maybe even forget bitcoin and start over with a new currency
1431 2011-06-28 07:23:46 Edgeman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1432 2011-06-28 07:23:52 <phantomcircuit> the halving of coins would be bait and switched
1433 2011-06-28 07:24:08 <pixglen> doublec: ok, i was looking at the actual results on txn, not at the code .... it looks like there is a fee property on the txn
1434 2011-06-28 07:24:25 <phantomcircuit> since miners control the rules of the network (as a whole) and something tells me we can convince them to just ignore the money base reduction algorithm
1435 2011-06-28 07:24:38 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: you've been smoking the DHT crackpipe too?
1436 2011-06-28 07:24:54 <jgarzik> DHTs are so vulnerable to attack and DoS it's not funny
1437 2011-06-28 07:24:59 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, eh a DHT + inv flooding would be fairly effective
1438 2011-06-28 07:25:04 * gmaxwell wishes for the DHT kickbot again.
1439 2011-06-28 07:25:15 <jgarzik> uh huh
1440 2011-06-28 07:25:19 <pixglen> doublec: but by setting txn fee to zero, bitcoin still assesses a fee on it but at least i'm guaranteed it will "go through" the system, right?
1441 2011-06-28 07:25:20 <phantomcircuit> and of course everybody would be free to have a full copy
1442 2011-06-28 07:25:31 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can take your pick of the places that flodded you the INV at random, thats even better than a DHT.
1443 2011-06-28 07:25:42 <gmaxwell> Because you don't even need to communicate anything. Just pick!
1444 2011-06-28 07:26:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, eh? no the DHT is for storing the transactions (mostly the scripts)
1445 2011-06-28 07:26:15 <phantomcircuit> 99% of the block chains size is transaction scripts
1446 2011-06-28 07:26:33 <phantomcircuit> if you could store those in a distributed fashion you could massively reduce the individual cost
1447 2011-06-28 07:26:38 kerx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1448 2011-06-28 07:27:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you still need to see them to validate them. Though I'd agree in a world of lite clients actually distributed storage may be helpful.
1449 2011-06-28 07:27:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah but you only need to see them once to validate them
1450 2011-06-28 07:27:26 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1451 2011-06-28 07:27:31 <lfm> phantomcircuit: maybe - maybe not. if you make bitcoin grow infinitly there would be all sorts of consequences both technical and psycological. the technical would be various overflow values and the psych would be inflation like problems Id think. If the miners have any stockpiles of old coins they might be smart enuf to not want that inflation
1452 2011-06-28 07:27:41 <pixglen> ok, guys, i need to test this to see what the JSONRPC API says when a txn fails to go through, will an attempt to send 0.005 BTC do?
1453 2011-06-28 07:27:54 <jgarzik> ...and as a bonus, with that DHT scheme, validated transactions may appear or disappear at random
1454 2011-06-28 07:27:56 <jgarzik> fun!
1455 2011-06-28 07:27:58 <gjs278> use testnet and send yourself hundreds of coins
1456 2011-06-28 07:28:27 <jgarzik> pixglen: anything < 0.01 is a microtransaction that requires a fee
1457 2011-06-28 07:28:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, obviously there would still be full nodes
1458 2011-06-28 07:28:39 <jgarzik> pixglen: but as gjs278 said, use testnet
1459 2011-06-28 07:28:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, that wouldn't at all replace full nodes. It would allow lite nodes to assist in validation.
1460 2011-06-28 07:28:53 <nhodges> coming soon, coin cart: http://bitcoinbodega.com
1461 2011-06-28 07:28:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1462 2011-06-28 07:29:07 <phantomcircuit> it would allow nodes with out enough storage space to be useful
1463 2011-06-28 07:29:21 <gmaxwell> And if a lite node NAKs you, you can find a full node to get the data from.  If thats even required. I'm not really convinced that it is. ::shrugs::
1464 2011-06-28 07:29:28 <pixglen> jgarzik: the rules are still the same at testnet right? if i dun wanna mine them i can get some at the testnet faucet?
1465 2011-06-28 07:29:38 <phantomcircuit> hell as it stands you can shutdown the network with a lot of ips
1466 2011-06-28 07:29:39 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1467 2011-06-28 07:29:43 <phantomcircuit> (actually only 128)
1468 2011-06-28 07:29:58 <gmaxwell> "I'm evarbuddies peer!"
1469 2011-06-28 07:30:13 <jgarzik> ...which is still too heavy for mobile phones and similar payment clients, creating a "fat light" client
1470 2011-06-28 07:30:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i should run a sybil
1471 2011-06-28 07:30:20 <phantomcircuit> just for the shits and giggles of it
1472 2011-06-28 07:30:38 <gmaxwell> it's also great, if you get proxies on a thousand or so /16s under your control you can prevent outbound connections to just about every good node too.
1473 2011-06-28 07:30:40 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's a step in between
1474 2011-06-28 07:30:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol you dont even need that
1475 2011-06-28 07:30:57 <jgarzik> yes, a non useful step
1476 2011-06-28 07:31:01 <jgarzik> just a full node, at that point
1477 2011-06-28 07:31:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: perhaps you can find the reason that bitcoin won't keep lots of connections up for more than a few days then. I still haven't tracked that down.
1478 2011-06-28 07:31:18 <gmaxwell> It's not worth debating. Build one when it's useful.
1479 2011-06-28 07:31:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, just fill all 128 connection slots on every connectable peer and wait for old connections to die, magic you control the network perfectly
1480 2011-06-28 07:31:56 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, but it's even better if you choose your /16s wisely, since a node won't even attempt to make an outbound connection to a /16 that it's connected to at all. IIRC.
1481 2011-06-28 07:31:58 <phantomcircuit> i wrote a poc for it but didn't have anywhere to run it from
1482 2011-06-28 07:32:04 <phantomcircuit> (it destroys NAT routers)
1483 2011-06-28 07:32:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, what do i care if the node wont connect outbound to be?
1484 2011-06-28 07:32:38 <phantomcircuit> it has nowhere else to connect to
1485 2011-06-28 07:32:39 <phantomcircuit> :P
1486 2011-06-28 07:32:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no no, not to you, to anyone else!
1487 2011-06-28 07:32:48 <phantomcircuit> yes but it cant
1488 2011-06-28 07:32:57 <phantomcircuit> i've filled all the other peers connection slots
1489 2011-06-28 07:33:23 <gmaxwell> Also, there are easier ways to break the network.
1490 2011-06-28 07:33:31 Gekz__ has joined
1491 2011-06-28 07:33:41 <gmaxwell> Connect to all visible nodes, flood the whole internet as addresses.
1492 2011-06-28 07:33:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well this isn't a break attack, this is a sybil and control what all nodes see attack
1493 2011-06-28 07:34:17 <phantomcircuit> you could double spend if you could correlate ip with user
1494 2011-06-28 07:34:18 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: generally sybil attacks are fairly weak in bitcoin, unless you have substantial hashpower it's mostly a DOS attack.
1495 2011-06-28 07:34:20 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1496 2011-06-28 07:34:21 <phantomcircuit> pretty easily actually
1497 2011-06-28 07:34:34 <lfm> any node that has minconnect (8 default) will not try more outbound connects
1498 2011-06-28 07:34:45 <phantomcircuit> yes im aware of all of this
1499 2011-06-28 07:34:53 <phantomcircuit> it's an attack that would take days to pull off
1500 2011-06-28 07:34:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well, if you don't think someone will notice that you've partitioned the network.
1501 2011-06-28 07:35:02 <phantomcircuit> you'd have to wait for other connections to randomly drop
1502 2011-06-28 07:35:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im sure someone would notice
1503 2011-06-28 07:35:17 <gmaxwell> But it's an argument for being able to add trusted peers that it reserves slots for.
1504 2011-06-28 07:35:32 <gmaxwell> (so that you can't partition the miners in order to double spend)
1505 2011-06-28 07:35:36 WakiMiko_ has joined
1506 2011-06-28 07:35:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ah but trusted peers wouldn't help most people because they dont know who to trust
1507 2011-06-28 07:35:44 <phantomcircuit> <-- seems super trust worthy
1508 2011-06-28 07:35:46 <phantomcircuit> ;)
1509 2011-06-28 07:35:52 <gmaxwell> they can trust you, thats fine.
1510 2011-06-28 07:36:02 <lfm> gets obvious when your block counts start to not match first of all, then txn dont go thru etc
1511 2011-06-28 07:36:03 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1512 2011-06-28 07:36:22 WakiMiko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1513 2011-06-28 07:36:33 <phantomcircuit> lfm, yeah obviously im assuming they're not using side channels to get other information
1514 2011-06-28 07:36:39 <gmaxwell> E.g. if miners are always linked to each other on reserved slots (even if some badguys also have reserved slots) then you can't partition them in order to double spend.
1515 2011-06-28 07:37:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i can prevent the victim from seeing legitimate blocks
1516 2011-06-28 07:37:09 <phantomcircuit> so they'd just see a VERY slow block day
1517 2011-06-28 07:37:15 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1518 2011-06-28 07:37:19 <gmaxwell> Yes, but you can't mine enough blocks to trigger a reasonable conservative confirmation policy.
1519 2011-06-28 07:37:50 <gmaxwell> You going to mine 6 blocks in a day?  if you could do that you'd be making more money without being evil. :)
1520 2011-06-28 07:37:56 <phantomcircuit> lol no way
1521 2011-06-28 07:38:06 <lfm> so to detect it I just need to do ;;bc,blocks
1522 2011-06-28 07:38:22 <phantomcircuit> lfm, well assumign i cant isolate gribble ;)
1523 2011-06-28 07:38:32 <gmaxwell> lfm: but most people won't... someday the client should be more helpful about this sort of stuff.
1524 2011-06-28 07:38:39 <lfm> or ask anyone on the "other" part of the net what their block count is
1525 2011-06-28 07:38:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's also an information recovery attack though, i would be able to correlate ip address with tx
1526 2011-06-28 07:39:09 <gmaxwell> Yup. Anonymity is hard period.
1527 2011-06-28 07:39:25 <jgarzik> you can correlate without DoS, given enough sampling nodes
1528 2011-06-28 07:39:32 <phantomcircuit> well if we ran entirely over tor with all peers being hidden services it would be a lot better
1529 2011-06-28 07:39:35 <gmaxwell> yup.
1530 2011-06-28 07:39:43 <jgarzik> not really
1531 2011-06-28 07:39:47 <gmaxwell> (I was yupping jgarzik)
1532 2011-06-28 07:39:52 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah but im talking perfect information, not simple correlation
1533 2011-06-28 07:40:00 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
1534 2011-06-28 07:40:02 <gmaxwell> Anonymity is too hard for most people to actually pull off.
1535 2011-06-28 07:40:05 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, not really? yes really
1536 2011-06-28 07:40:20 Gekz__ is now known as Gekz
1537 2011-06-28 07:40:25 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
1538 2011-06-28 07:40:25 Gekz has joined
1539 2011-06-28 07:40:31 <egecko> hrm
1540 2011-06-28 07:40:36 <gmaxwell> you could do the same things to nodes on tor
1541 2011-06-28 07:40:51 <jgarzik> your router lights still go blinky-blink in an obvious way.  easy for gov't to know who's sending TX's over tor, if they are already watching.
1542 2011-06-28 07:40:56 <gmaxwell> then you just wait for the next mtgox database leak and you've tied all the addresses you connected to IPs.
1543 2011-06-28 07:41:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sure but now you have some random tor info
1544 2011-06-28 07:41:28 <jgarzik> bitcoin fingerprint is entirely obvious over tor/i2p/whatever
1545 2011-06-28 07:41:40 <gmaxwell> No, you have addresses connected to addresses, so you just need one connection.  And tor is super vulnerable to traffic analysis.
1546 2011-06-28 07:41:49 dvide has joined
1547 2011-06-28 07:42:05 <gmaxwell> You have a candiate IP that you can watch traffic to? flood the suspect hidden service for a moment. Tada. Busted.
1548 2011-06-28 07:42:06 <egecko> so, if you have a terahash/s rate, i think you could make money mining now that the difficulty is above a million otherwise it looks like you're screwed
1549 2011-06-28 07:42:28 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah, but it's still much better
1550 2011-06-28 07:43:39 <gmaxwell> Dunno, it's weak against spooks (who you ought to be assuming have real time near complete network visiblity for selected 5-tuples). And if your threat model isn't spooks, then you don't need anything that strong.
1551 2011-06-28 07:44:07 <gmaxwell> Anyways, better tor support would be good regardless.
1552 2011-06-28 07:44:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well it's weak against spooks unless you move traffic through north korea
1553 2011-06-28 07:44:41 <phantomcircuit> xD
1554 2011-06-28 07:44:43 <gmaxwell> I pointed that fininshing up bitcoin's v6 support and then mixing in onioncat addresses would do it without much additional work beyond v6 support.
1555 2011-06-28 07:45:06 SuperArse has quit ()
1556 2011-06-28 07:45:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, true
1557 2011-06-28 07:46:17 <gmaxwell> Likewise, trusted peers with reserved connections slots would seriously weaken your proposed sibyl if deployed (and I think the big miners would deploy it)
1558 2011-06-28 07:47:46 Stellar has joined
1559 2011-06-28 07:48:13 hachque has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1560 2011-06-28 07:51:23 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1561 2011-06-28 07:52:16 kW_ has joined
1562 2011-06-28 07:54:20 Marf has joined
1563 2011-06-28 07:55:16 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1564 2011-06-28 07:59:35 TheAncientGoat has joined
1565 2011-06-28 08:00:16 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1566 2011-06-28 08:04:44 slush has joined
1567 2011-06-28 08:08:31 <pixglen> on testnet i sent 0.5 BTC to the faucet and i still get assessed a 0.005BTC fee? is that right?
1568 2011-06-28 08:11:37 <gmaxwell> pixglen: depends on how long you've sat on the coins. Inputs that you turn around quickly are low prioity.   You meant 0.0005 right?
1569 2011-06-28 08:13:05 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1570 2011-06-28 08:13:19 larsivi has joined
1571 2011-06-28 08:14:09 Kurtov has joined
1572 2011-06-28 08:23:48 d1234 has joined
1573 2011-06-28 08:32:16 nealmcb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1574 2011-06-28 08:32:51 povik has joined
1575 2011-06-28 08:34:14 ne0futur_ has joined
1576 2011-06-28 08:37:41 ne0futur_ has quit (Client Quit)
1577 2011-06-28 08:38:22 neofutur has joined
1578 2011-06-28 08:39:56 WildSoil has joined
1579 2011-06-28 08:40:09 <WildSoil> when is estimated difficult increase ?
1580 2011-06-28 08:40:12 <WildSoil> time for that ?
1581 2011-06-28 08:40:26 neofutur has quit (Client Quit)
1582 2011-06-28 08:40:33 neofutur has joined
1583 2011-06-28 08:40:33 neofutur has quit (Changing host)
1584 2011-06-28 08:40:33 neofutur has joined
1585 2011-06-28 08:41:05 <pixglen> gmaxwell: yes, it was a quick turnaround
1586 2011-06-28 08:41:35 neofutur has quit (Client Quit)
1587 2011-06-28 08:42:13 <ersi> ;;bc,stats
1588 2011-06-28 08:42:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133645 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1426 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 8 hours, 35 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1461509.22378143
1589 2011-06-28 08:42:16 <ersi> WildSoil: ^^
1590 2011-06-28 08:42:34 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1591 2011-06-28 08:43:15 neofutur has joined
1592 2011-06-28 08:43:15 neofutur has quit (Changing host)
1593 2011-06-28 08:43:15 neofutur has joined
1594 2011-06-28 08:45:57 Anthraxium-64 has joined
1595 2011-06-28 08:46:32 <Anthraxium-64> is it possible to make a php signature that lets random people make bitcoins for you?
1596 2011-06-28 08:46:47 <Anthraxium-64> i post at forums alot, and i wondered if that's possible
1597 2011-06-28 08:48:16 <Zoiah> Anthraxium-64: no.
1598 2011-06-28 08:48:29 devrandom has joined
1599 2011-06-28 08:48:51 <Anthraxium-64> what about the bitcoin plus code then, how does one embed that into php?
1600 2011-06-28 08:48:53 <Zoiah> Only something java(script) would work, and this is not allowed in most of not all signatures.
1601 2011-06-28 08:49:29 <Zoiah> Also, it would only be mining on the CPU so the amount of bitcoins would be neglicable, even if it was 1000 people.
1602 2011-06-28 08:49:50 f33x has joined
1603 2011-06-28 08:50:59 <Namegduf> Forums will not let you put JavaScript in your signatures.
1604 2011-06-28 08:51:10 <Namegduf> If they do, they're open to massive attacks
1605 2011-06-28 08:51:35 <Namegduf> Basically, you can write some JavaScript that sends their login cookie to you, or automatically posts spam using their account, or all kinds of stuff.
1606 2011-06-28 08:51:45 <Namegduf> So moot anyway.
1607 2011-06-28 08:51:53 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1608 2011-06-28 08:51:59 bernie has quit (Excess Flood)
1609 2011-06-28 08:52:00 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1610 2011-06-28 08:52:04 bernie has joined
1611 2011-06-28 08:52:13 Varan has joined
1612 2011-06-28 08:52:46 neofutur has quit (Quit: leaving)
1613 2011-06-28 08:53:44 neofutur has joined
1614 2011-06-28 08:53:57 mctrader has joined
1615 2011-06-28 09:01:53 devon_hillard has joined
1616 2011-06-28 09:03:35 vragnaroda has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1617 2011-06-28 09:03:35 dbitcoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1618 2011-06-28 09:03:53 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1619 2011-06-28 09:03:58 vragnaroda has joined
1620 2011-06-28 09:04:08 erus` has joined
1621 2011-06-28 09:05:13 pirrr has joined
1622 2011-06-28 09:06:31 larsivi has joined
1623 2011-06-28 09:07:43 <Anthraxium-64> how can i make my own CPU cluster with linux?
1624 2011-06-28 09:07:52 <Anthraxium-64> i have around 40 pc's lying around here
1625 2011-06-28 09:08:06 <ersi> There's plenty of information if you use a so called search engine
1626 2011-06-28 09:08:07 abragin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1627 2011-06-28 09:09:32 <Anthraxium-64> ersi: i tried searching, info is about amazon ec2 clouds and gpu mining.
1628 2011-06-28 09:10:30 abragin has joined
1629 2011-06-28 09:10:30 abragin has quit (Changing host)
1630 2011-06-28 09:10:30 abragin has joined
1631 2011-06-28 09:11:06 <ersi> I'd recommend searching about any of these terms; linux netboot/pxe diskless cluster
1632 2011-06-28 09:11:11 d1g1t4l has joined
1633 2011-06-28 09:11:43 <jtaylor> or beowulf cluster
1634 2011-06-28 09:11:45 <ersi> basically what you'd want is to boot them all from the network with a very minimal install and kick start a miner on each node
1635 2011-06-28 09:12:57 kW_ has joined
1636 2011-06-28 09:13:47 <Anthraxium-64> oki
1637 2011-06-28 09:14:18 f33x_ has joined
1638 2011-06-28 09:14:33 <Anthraxium-64> so i have to create a custom distro?
1639 2011-06-28 09:14:39 povik has left ()
1640 2011-06-28 09:15:13 <ersi> You could take any, and just strip it down
1641 2011-06-28 09:15:28 <Mqrius> Does anyone know in what format M2Crypto exports its private keys, or specifically, what steps I need to convert them into something useable? Example: MHQCAQEEIAV4xtRYwCG2SfBW0XgU+7gOadUSbDwCZINKfEYh9JV0oAcGBSuBBAAK
1642 2011-06-28 09:15:30 <ersi> I bet netbooting debian would be easy
1643 2011-06-28 09:15:37 AStove has joined
1644 2011-06-28 09:15:47 <ersi> I think they have a netboot image ready, just add the software you need~
1645 2011-06-28 09:15:55 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1646 2011-06-28 09:15:56 f33x_ is now known as f33x
1647 2011-06-28 09:16:17 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1648 2011-06-28 09:16:25 <Anthraxium-64> ersi: i am thinking of using arch
1649 2011-06-28 09:16:56 <gm> Mqrius: that looks like base64
1650 2011-06-28 09:18:42 <Mqrius> gm: Agreed. Hmm, I wonder if just decoding it and re-encoding to base58 is enough to get it to import, or if there's some fundamental difference
1651 2011-06-28 09:19:08 <jandd> Mqrius: should work
1652 2011-06-28 09:20:06 <jandd> Mqrius: what do you want to do with a base58 encoded private key? You don't want to publish this?
1653 2011-06-28 09:20:16 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: Sure, any will do.
1654 2011-06-28 09:20:32 <Mqrius> jandd: import it into my wallet. Not the example I posted, of course.
1655 2011-06-28 09:20:42 <Anthraxium-64> ersi: how can i mod arch then..
1656 2011-06-28 09:20:51 <jandd> Mqrius: ok, fine then
1657 2011-06-28 09:20:55 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: Use your hands :|
1658 2011-06-28 09:27:32 Xunie has joined
1659 2011-06-28 09:32:02 kreal- has joined
1660 2011-06-28 09:32:38 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1661 2011-06-28 09:32:42 <yorick> upb: great :)
1662 2011-06-28 09:33:23 WildSoil has quit ()
1663 2011-06-28 09:40:47 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1664 2011-06-28 09:42:24 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1665 2011-06-28 09:42:36 shawn-p has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1666 2011-06-28 09:43:01 shawn-p has joined
1667 2011-06-28 09:46:05 <prof7bit> has anybody of you seen a service anywhere that will scan each new block and notify me by email about transactions to certain addresses? If not this would be a nice thing to implement if one of you is looking for an idea.
1668 2011-06-28 09:47:05 <Mqrius> How do RPC calls work/how do I use them? (Underlying question; how do I import a private key into my wallet?)
1669 2011-06-28 09:47:07 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1670 2011-06-28 09:49:29 huk has joined
1671 2011-06-28 09:49:59 <Anthraxium-64> ersi: do i need internet for bitcoin mining?
1672 2011-06-28 09:51:33 <sipa> yes
1673 2011-06-28 09:51:52 <sipa> Mqrius: using my showwallet patch
1674 2011-06-28 09:52:51 <Anthraxium-64> sipa: so i should put my cluster on the 'net
1675 2011-06-28 09:52:52 <Anthraxium-64> ?
1676 2011-06-28 09:53:08 <Anthraxium-64> do the nodes need internet, or do i need to have internet on the master?
1677 2011-06-28 09:53:19 <sipa> what are nodes?
1678 2011-06-28 09:54:14 <sipa> nodes need to communicate with a pool or a bitcoind
1679 2011-06-28 09:54:25 <sipa> bitcoind needs internet
1680 2011-06-28 09:54:36 <erus`> bitcoin is anti christian
1681 2011-06-28 09:54:50 <lfm> erus`: huh?
1682 2011-06-28 09:55:56 <Mqrius> sipa: Do you have either a windows binary for that, or a super-short reminder how I use mingw or cygwin to compile stuff? (I have both, but I keep forgetting how to use them)
1683 2011-06-28 09:56:13 <prof7bit> erus`: show us the code where this happens
1684 2011-06-28 09:56:43 <lfm> prof7bit: how soon after a txn would you need to be notified?
1685 2011-06-28 09:56:51 <erus`> bitcoin.cpp:line 22 - where the government cant track spending
1686 2011-06-28 09:57:34 <lfm> erus`: whats that to do with christian?
1687 2011-06-28 09:57:46 <prof7bit> lfm: maybe configurable either block #1 or block #6
1688 2011-06-28 09:57:48 <erus`> it promotes Islamic ideals
1689 2011-06-28 09:58:22 <lfm> prof7bit: no, I mean would a email 1 hour after the txn be too late?
1690 2011-06-28 09:58:29 <prof7bit> erus`: please stop
1691 2011-06-28 09:59:00 <erus`> hurrrr
1692 2011-06-28 09:59:26 <Mqrius> "mingw32-make.exe makefile.mingw" -> "mingw32-make: Nothing to be done for 'makefile.mingw'."
1693 2011-06-28 09:59:34 <Mqrius> How does this stuff work again >_<
1694 2011-06-28 09:59:51 <erus`> Mqrius: does it work without the makefile.mingw arguement?
1695 2011-06-28 10:00:02 <lfm> prof7bit: cuz I have stuff that you could periodiclly scan the block chain and would not be hard to send out email on events
1696 2011-06-28 10:00:06 <prof7bit> lfm: for me personally it would not be time-critical, i just woke up this morning and while starting by mail client and seeing the usual paypal mails i though this would be a nice idea
1697 2011-06-28 10:00:14 Soak has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1698 2011-06-28 10:00:14 <Mqrius> erus`: nope, no targets specified and no makefile found
1699 2011-06-28 10:00:56 <prof7bit> i only thought by me this would be an idea. i don't have the pressing need for it now, i ust wanted to share the idea.
1700 2011-06-28 10:01:05 <erus`> Mqrius: make clean first?
1701 2011-06-28 10:02:08 <Mqrius> erus`: how do I do that again? it tries to make the target 'clean'
1702 2011-06-28 10:02:21 <lfm> prof7bit: I have a report of the balances for all bitcoin addresses takes about a minute to run.
1703 2011-06-28 10:02:33 <erus`> ming32-make makefile.mingw clean
1704 2011-06-28 10:02:37 <erus`> i think
1705 2011-06-28 10:03:17 asselinp_ has joined
1706 2011-06-28 10:03:28 <Mqrius> mingw32-make: Nothing to be done for 'makefile.mingw'.
1707 2011-06-28 10:03:29 <Mqrius> mingw32-make: *** No rule to make target 'clean'. Stop.
1708 2011-06-28 10:03:53 minimoose has joined
1709 2011-06-28 10:04:08 <prof7bit> i could easily do it myself if i (a) had a server to run it on and (b) the time to implement it and care about this project and maintain it
1710 2011-06-28 10:04:15 <erus`> move makefile.mingw Makefile & make clean
1711 2011-06-28 10:04:45 <prof7bit> i might have enough (b) but not (a)
1712 2011-06-28 10:04:49 kreal- has joined
1713 2011-06-28 10:05:13 <lfm> prof7bit: ya, its not terribly hard but fiddly to get it right
1714 2011-06-28 10:05:14 <yorick> upb: why did you not use asString at DoubleSHA256?
1715 2011-06-28 10:06:24 <erus`> Mqrius: this is why I don't write anything in C++ anymore :P
1716 2011-06-28 10:06:37 <Mqrius> erus`: Ah, that seems to do something :P (Yeah, I prefer python myself too :P)
1717 2011-06-28 10:06:39 <prof7bit> yes. and all the usual overhead for making it look nice and professional, and all the things that are needed for people to create accounts, manage their addresses, forget their passwords, etc.
1718 2011-06-28 10:06:44 <erus`> that and circular dependencies and all that shit
1719 2011-06-28 10:07:02 <Mqrius> del /Q obj\*
1720 2011-06-28 10:07:02 <Mqrius> del /Q obj\nogui\*
1721 2011-06-28 10:07:02 <Mqrius> del /Q cryptopp\obj\*
1722 2011-06-28 10:07:02 <Mqrius> del /Q headers.h.gch
1723 2011-06-28 10:07:02 <Mqrius> Could Not Find D:\Software\Bitcoin Showwallet\headers.h.gch
1724 2011-06-28 10:07:32 <Mqrius> This seems to me like it's the makefile's fault, no? sipa, you still around?
1725 2011-06-28 10:08:06 <lfm> Mqrius: you prolly need to edit the makefile to tell it proper dirs for some things
1726 2011-06-28 10:08:11 AgoristRadio has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1727 2011-06-28 10:08:26 <erus`> Mqrius: if you have visual studio installed you can do nmake
1728 2011-06-28 10:08:37 <erus`> thats what people are doing to build on the forums
1729 2011-06-28 10:08:55 <Mqrius> erus`: I don't have that. Also, it's bloated, and just as confusing for me :P
1730 2011-06-28 10:10:20 <Mqrius> Hmm, if it's just a delete, and it can't find the file, then I assume there's no problem... I'll try commenting that line out, see if that helps :P
1731 2011-06-28 10:11:08 magn3ts has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1732 2011-06-28 10:11:47 d1g1t4l has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1733 2011-06-28 10:11:55 <Mqrius> Oh hm that was actually only the cleaning. The actual making has a different error >_<
1734 2011-06-28 10:12:09 <erus`> lol
1735 2011-06-28 10:12:14 <erus`> i hope you have boost
1736 2011-06-28 10:12:30 <erus`> they should have written the client in haskell...
1737 2011-06-28 10:12:53 <lfm> too late now
1738 2011-06-28 10:13:08 <Mqrius> "headers.h:30:19: fatal error: wx/wx.h: No such file or directory"
1739 2011-06-28 10:13:17 <Mqrius> Correct, it's not there. Now what? ...
1740 2011-06-28 10:13:39 <lfm> now install wx widgets package
1741 2011-06-28 10:14:03 <Mqrius> fair enough
1742 2011-06-28 10:14:31 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1743 2011-06-28 10:15:04 <lfm> did you read the build-msw.txt file?
1744 2011-06-28 10:16:10 <Mqrius> lfm: Nope. Read the Readme though, that didn't help. Didn't actually know that was a thing I should read :P
1745 2011-06-28 10:16:26 <lfm> ok, you should
1746 2011-06-28 10:18:08 <phantomcircuit> now pray to the binary gods
1747 2011-06-28 10:18:25 <phantomcircuit> you must do the sacred dance before being bestowed with binaries
1748 2011-06-28 10:20:10 <sipa> erus: roconnor is writing a haskell bitcoin implementation
1749 2011-06-28 10:21:13 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
1750 2011-06-28 10:21:35 <makomk> *snort* Someone really said theymos is for "free speech at any cost". That's a good one...
1751 2011-06-28 10:23:13 <lfm> ya me too
1752 2011-06-28 10:24:37 pixglen has joined
1753 2011-06-28 10:24:47 danbri has joined
1754 2011-06-28 10:26:12 <Mqrius> phantomcircuit: Yeah, that's what it feels like :/ I hate compiling >_<
1755 2011-06-28 10:27:30 Incitatus has joined
1756 2011-06-28 10:28:03 <Anthraxium-64> sipa: don't you know a cluster computer concept?
1757 2011-06-28 10:29:03 <Mqrius> No offense to sipa, but is there something to add keys to my wallet that works more out of the box for windows users?
1758 2011-06-28 10:30:04 <Anthraxium-64> how to make bitcoin download the blocks faster?
1759 2011-06-28 10:30:18 <yorick> Anthraxium-64: get them from http
1760 2011-06-28 10:30:27 <Anthraxium-64> wa?
1761 2011-06-28 10:30:29 <yorick> like getblockchain.com
1762 2011-06-28 10:32:11 samlander has quit ()
1763 2011-06-28 10:33:23 shawn-p has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1764 2011-06-28 10:34:35 datagutt has joined
1765 2011-06-28 10:38:03 <Anthraxium-64> am at 120768
1766 2011-06-28 10:38:09 <lfm> get them from anyone
1767 2011-06-28 10:38:42 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1768 2011-06-28 10:38:42 <gribble> 133659
1769 2011-06-28 10:39:21 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1770 2011-06-28 10:39:32 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: you're almost got them now, no sense doing anything else
1771 2011-06-28 10:41:06 <Anthraxium-64> mkay
1772 2011-06-28 10:43:05 Varan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1773 2011-06-28 10:43:15 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1774 2011-06-28 10:45:38 mctrader has quit (Quit: off like a prom dress...)
1775 2011-06-28 10:46:25 <Mqrius> gavinandresen has a nice wallet reader in python. Is it possible to use that to write to the wallet, too?
1776 2011-06-28 10:46:36 <phantomcircuit> safely? no
1777 2011-06-28 10:47:21 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1778 2011-06-28 10:47:40 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: Yes, definitly.
1779 2011-06-28 10:47:43 <lfm> gavins tools are all readonly arnt they?
1780 2011-06-28 10:47:45 sgornick has joined
1781 2011-06-28 10:47:48 <Mqrius> Okay, but unsafely? If I just make sure I only add unused keys, there can't be any transaction mess-ups, right?
1782 2011-06-28 10:48:01 sgornick has quit (Client Quit)
1783 2011-06-28 10:48:01 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: How would you otherwise know what others in the Bitcoin network does? How would you publish your own work? ;)
1784 2011-06-28 10:48:43 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: If you're going to run a miner on each node and connect to some public pool - they all need to be able to connect outwards. If you're doing your own pool, only one needs to run bitcoind
1785 2011-06-28 10:49:46 sgornick has joined
1786 2011-06-28 10:50:12 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1787 2011-06-28 10:50:15 <lfm> I dont think bitcoind supports more than 12 miners or something tho
1788 2011-06-28 10:51:48 <ersi> Yeah, running pushpool or something would be a great idea none the less
1789 2011-06-28 10:52:21 <Mqrius> lfm: Not only readonly; he has a fixwallet.py that's supposed to attempt to recover a corrupt wallet
1790 2011-06-28 10:52:51 <lfm> oh cool, I havnt looked at recent versions
1791 2011-06-28 10:53:12 <Mqrius> "Half-baked utility that reads a wallet.dat and writes out a new wallet.dat.
1792 2011-06-28 10:53:12 <Mqrius> Only half-baked because to be really useful I'd have to write serialize routines to re-pack data after modifying it..."
1793 2011-06-28 10:53:14 <Anthraxium-64> ersi: it's my own pool, but does it send results via the master, or via the nodes?
1794 2011-06-28 10:54:11 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: 'the master'
1795 2011-06-28 10:54:22 <ersi> Ie. the instance of Bitcoin you got running as a server
1796 2011-06-28 10:54:35 <lfm> ya, they could be on a private net not "direclty" connected to the internet. Only your main bitcoin needs to be on the main internet
1797 2011-06-28 10:54:51 <ersi> so setup one machine with bitcoind and, optionally pushpoold - then start miners on all the nodes - they'll report work to your "master"
1798 2011-06-28 10:55:11 <Anthraxium-64> okido
1799 2011-06-28 10:59:29 MtGox_Adam has quit (Quit: MtGox_Adam)
1800 2011-06-28 11:00:46 <sipa> Anthraxium-64: of course i know, but i'm not sure what you mean with it in the context of bitcoin
1801 2011-06-28 11:00:49 <sipa> Anthraxium-64: simply a miner?
1802 2011-06-28 11:02:37 <Anthraxium-64> it's a miner yeah?
1803 2011-06-28 11:02:40 <Anthraxium-64> miner cluster
1804 2011-06-28 11:03:04 <sipa> ok, miners don't need to connect to the internet directly, only to the pool or bitcoind
1805 2011-06-28 11:03:10 <Anthraxium-64> ok
1806 2011-06-28 11:04:23 <sipa> Mqrius: wallet-surgery things like moving keys around is not supported natively by the bitcoin client (yet)
1807 2011-06-28 11:04:47 noagendamarket has joined
1808 2011-06-28 11:04:52 eianpsego has quit ()
1809 2011-06-28 11:05:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: the text in the pull req still says AES256 with 1000 rounds
1810 2011-06-28 11:05:20 <Mqrius> sipa: yeah... I'd like to be able to right now though :P
1811 2011-06-28 11:06:41 Sedra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1812 2011-06-28 11:07:15 lightcode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1813 2011-06-28 11:09:05 germanMNY has joined
1814 2011-06-28 11:10:47 Sedra has joined
1815 2011-06-28 11:16:55 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1816 2011-06-28 11:18:10 <Mqrius> When I dump my wallet data with bitcointools, I get pub&priv keys, addresses, and "Change pool key". What is that last one?
1817 2011-06-28 11:18:41 <sipa> the reserve key pool
1818 2011-06-28 11:20:23 <Mqrius> Right. So in theory I would only have to add a pub/priv key pair, and if that hasn't been used yet, there will be no corruption?
1819 2011-06-28 11:21:39 asselinp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1820 2011-06-28 11:22:47 <sipa> corruption?
1821 2011-06-28 11:23:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: choosing "change wallet encrpytion passphrase" when wallet is not encrypted gives a wx assert error, then a warning message, then a question for the wallet passphrase anyway
1822 2011-06-28 11:23:42 Speeder has joined
1823 2011-06-28 11:24:43 <sipa> BlueMatt: same thing when choosing "encrypt wallet" when it is already encrypted
1824 2011-06-28 11:25:19 lizthegr1y is now known as lizthegrey
1825 2011-06-28 11:26:16 <lfm> Mqrius: I dont think it really matters if it has been used. you can do a rescan
1826 2011-06-28 11:26:58 Katibe has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1827 2011-06-28 11:27:04 Mononofu has joined
1828 2011-06-28 11:27:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: any idea by the way why encrypting the wallet takes so long?
1829 2011-06-28 11:28:29 Katibe has joined
1830 2011-06-28 11:29:15 o_0oo has joined
1831 2011-06-28 11:29:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: fixed 1 and 2
1832 2011-06-28 11:31:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: using rpc interface for "walletpassphrase" P: error: {"code":-14,"message":"Error: The wallet passphrase entered was incorrect."}
1833 2011-06-28 11:31:11 <sipa> oh wait, wrong paste
1834 2011-06-28 11:31:50 <sipa> error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected int"}
1835 2011-06-28 11:32:17 ewal has joined
1836 2011-06-28 11:33:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: and wanted to ask you about how db transactions should be done in CWallet...(which is why its slow) could do a CWalletDB* in CWallet which is always used if it exists, or override Encrypt to handle a CWalletDB and get messy with AddKey...
1837 2011-06-28 11:33:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: that is for encryptwallet?
1838 2011-06-28 11:33:26 wardearia has joined
1839 2011-06-28 11:35:08 <BlueMatt> sipa: encryptwallet <passphrase> works fine for me
1840 2011-06-28 11:38:31 <sipa> BlueMatt: no, for walletpassphrase
1841 2011-06-28 11:39:18 <sipa> it's slow because it always recreates CWalletDB objects?
1842 2011-06-28 11:39:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: oops, missed that when I s/password/passphrase'd, fixed now
1843 2011-06-28 11:40:22 <BlueMatt> its slow because it creates a new CWalletDB on each key write and thus writes after each key (I think, I havent tested, but its either that or encryption, and only one of those can be fixed)
1844 2011-06-28 11:40:40 <BlueMatt> also, its instant on my testnet wallet which has only like ~120 keys
1845 2011-06-28 11:42:49 <sipa> huh
1846 2011-06-28 11:42:56 <BlueMatt> linux right?
1847 2011-06-28 11:43:01 <sipa> yes
1848 2011-06-28 11:43:06 <BlueMatt> mount options?
1849 2011-06-28 11:44:42 oozyburglar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1850 2011-06-28 11:44:56 <sipa> ext4 barrier=1 data=orderdd, apparentyl
1851 2011-06-28 11:45:27 <sipa> it took a second or more here
1852 2011-06-28 11:45:32 <sipa> more, i think
1853 2011-06-28 11:47:34 <BlueMatt> hm, dont see why barrier would be doing that (and I think 1 is default)
1854 2011-06-28 11:47:50 gsathya has joined
1855 2011-06-28 11:47:52 <BlueMatt> might just be general bdb slowness though, you would have to benchmark
1856 2011-06-28 11:47:54 gsathya has left ()
1857 2011-06-28 11:49:08 <ius> sipa: Compile with -Wall (BlueMatt was really right with his patch imo :p)
1858 2011-06-28 11:49:15 <ius> rpcdump.cpp:116:82: warning: converting ‘false’ to pointer type for argument 2 of ‘bool ExtractPubKey(const CScript&, const CKeyStore*, std::vector<unsigned char>&)’ [-Wconversion-null]
1859 2011-06-28 11:49:24 <ius> Passing false to CKeyStore *
1860 2011-06-28 11:49:34 erus`_ has joined
1861 2011-06-28 11:49:47 <BlueMatt> damit I thought I checked compile with that patch yesterday
1862 2011-06-28 11:50:02 <ius> (It shouldn't break anything, but mmh)
1863 2011-06-28 11:51:45 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1864 2011-06-28 11:51:54 <BlueMatt> wait, wtf? you have an error in rpcdump.cpp...?
1865 2011-06-28 11:51:56 erus`_ is now known as erus`
1866 2011-06-28 11:51:59 <BlueMatt> there is no rpcdump.cpp
1867 2011-06-28 11:52:06 AndyB1 has joined
1868 2011-06-28 11:52:27 <ius> BlueMatt: It's in one of his pull requests, sorry, forgot about that
1869 2011-06-28 11:52:46 <ius> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/220
1870 2011-06-28 11:53:16 <ius> BlueMatt: Completely forgot that I picked that set in order to debug the asyncio patch
1871 2011-06-28 11:54:32 <BlueMatt> oh, it was to sipa...sorry I got confsed
1872 2011-06-28 11:56:22 N0va` has joined
1873 2011-06-28 11:58:42 <pirrr> $ bitcoin getinfo | grep connections
1874 2011-06-28 11:58:42 <pirrr>     "connections" : 0,
1875 2011-06-28 11:58:55 <pirrr> I am on the test network, how do I get connections?
1876 2011-06-28 11:59:02 <pirrr> bitcoind is running on a VPS :)
1877 2011-06-28 12:00:03 <erus`> very prestigious server
1878 2011-06-28 12:00:35 Clipse has joined
1879 2011-06-28 12:00:40 theorb has joined
1880 2011-06-28 12:01:06 meelu has joined
1881 2011-06-28 12:01:08 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1882 2011-06-28 12:01:09 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1883 2011-06-28 12:01:11 meelu has quit (Changing host)
1884 2011-06-28 12:01:11 meelu has joined
1885 2011-06-28 12:01:17 <lfm> erus`: close
1886 2011-06-28 12:01:38 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1887 2011-06-28 12:01:42 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1888 2011-06-28 12:01:44 <pirrr> what do you mean?
1889 2011-06-28 12:01:48 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
1890 2011-06-28 12:02:18 cacheson has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1891 2011-06-28 12:02:24 Gekz has joined
1892 2011-06-28 12:02:24 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
1893 2011-06-28 12:02:24 Gekz has joined
1894 2011-06-28 12:02:25 <lfm> pirrr: it should connect sooner or later. how long have you been trying?
1895 2011-06-28 12:02:26 vragnaroda has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1896 2011-06-28 12:02:42 <Anthraxium-64> 127831 blocks...
1897 2011-06-28 12:02:45 <pirrr> not long ;). 3 minutes or so...
1898 2011-06-28 12:03:06 larsivi has joined
1899 2011-06-28 12:03:08 <upb> yorick: asString used UTF-8
1900 2011-06-28 12:03:12 <pirrr> but it is my first try... So I thought I might be the problem ;)
1901 2011-06-28 12:03:16 <ius> pirrr: You could feed it a static node to bootstrap if thats the issue somehow (somewhere on wiki)
1902 2011-06-28 12:04:08 devrandom has joined
1903 2011-06-28 12:04:43 <pirrr> ius, Okay, I'll search :)
1904 2011-06-28 12:04:45 <erus`> how does bitcoin find peers? does it just try random IPs?
1905 2011-06-28 12:04:53 <lfm> erus no
1906 2011-06-28 12:05:08 <ius> erus`: IRC bootstrap atm
1907 2011-06-28 12:05:45 <erus`> I thought it was decentralised?
1908 2011-06-28 12:05:47 <pirrr> Wiki says it gets it connections from "#bitcoinTEST instead of #bitcoin (both on irc.lfnet.org)."
1909 2011-06-28 12:05:54 <pirrr> that channel is empty
1910 2011-06-28 12:05:55 <ius> Exactly
1911 2011-06-28 12:06:05 <pirrr> oh wait
1912 2011-06-28 12:06:18 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
1913 2011-06-28 12:06:32 <pirrr> efnet != lfnet
1914 2011-06-28 12:06:33 <lfm> erus it has 4 ways. 1 it joins a special irc channel and listens for connect messages there. 2) there is a list of node hard coded in the source 3) you can specify nodes on the command line 4) once it connects to an active node it gets a fresh list of active nodes on the bitcoin net
1915 2011-06-28 12:07:31 <Anthraxium-64> are there .net bitcoin libs?
1916 2011-06-28 12:07:43 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: not really
1917 2011-06-28 12:08:04 <Anthraxium-64> hmm..
1918 2011-06-28 12:08:05 <erus`> actually i think i have seen a .net bitcoin lib
1919 2011-06-28 12:08:14 <Anthraxium-64> how hard is it to code a miner in c#?
1920 2011-06-28 12:08:31 <erus`> Anthraxium-64: you need to use gpu these days
1921 2011-06-28 12:09:01 <Anthraxium-64> erus`: there are no CPU methods anymore?
1922 2011-06-28 12:09:11 <erus`> yeah but they are too slow
1923 2011-06-28 12:09:16 <pirrr> I can't seem to find a peer list on the wiki (for the test net)
1924 2011-06-28 12:09:19 <Anthraxium-64> too slow?
1925 2011-06-28 12:09:26 <Anthraxium-64> even when running a big cloud?
1926 2011-06-28 12:09:31 <erus`> only mine cents a day
1927 2011-06-28 12:09:35 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: well if you want to make more money than you spend on electricity, a CPU is not enuf
1928 2011-06-28 12:09:43 <mtrlt> Anthraxium-64: took me three days to code a slow cpu miner in c++. then a day to make it use GPU.
1929 2011-06-28 12:09:51 <erus`> a good cpu gets 8MHs, and a good GPU gets like 800MHs
1930 2011-06-28 12:09:57 <Anthraxium-64> i have a i7 920 @ 3.2 GHz and an ATi Radeon HD5870
1931 2011-06-28 12:10:07 <Anthraxium-64> this laptop has a shitty i3
1932 2011-06-28 12:10:13 <lfm> ok a 5870 should work ok
1933 2011-06-28 12:10:36 <Anthraxium-64> how expensive would it be to make a GPU farm, and will i earn it back?
1934 2011-06-28 12:11:08 <erus`> Anthraxium-64: your a bit late i think. the cost to buy will probably not be recovered.
1935 2011-06-28 12:11:37 <pirrr> [I bootstrapped bitcoind to 69.164.218.197 [faucet], now it has a working connection]
1936 2011-06-28 12:11:47 <lfm> kinda depends wht your electricity costs too
1937 2011-06-28 12:12:08 <Anthraxium-64> erus`: bit late?
1938 2011-06-28 12:12:13 <lfm> pirrr: good work
1939 2011-06-28 12:12:24 MasterChief has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1940 2011-06-28 12:12:24 <erus`> it gets less cost effective to mine bitcoins as time goes on
1941 2011-06-28 12:12:26 MC1984 has joined
1942 2011-06-28 12:12:35 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: lots of people have that idea. the difficulty is going up fast
1943 2011-06-28 12:13:04 <pirrr> lfm (y) (but does not get new connections)
1944 2011-06-28 12:13:19 <Anthraxium-64> lfm: could you explain the system?
1945 2011-06-28 12:13:41 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: I can explain some of it but it would take a long time
1946 2011-06-28 12:13:49 koleg has joined
1947 2011-06-28 12:13:59 <Anthraxium-64> so it's not profitable?
1948 2011-06-28 12:14:02 <Anthraxium-64> mkai..
1949 2011-06-28 12:14:17 <lfm> pirrr: might not get extra connections till you catch up to the block chain
1950 2011-06-28 12:14:29 <lfm> pirrr:     "blocks" : 28427,
1951 2011-06-28 12:14:34 skeledrew has joined
1952 2011-06-28 12:14:49 <ersi> Anthraxium-64: You're very late into the party
1953 2011-06-28 12:15:08 <pirrr> lfm: thanks! [    "blocks" : 12807,]
1954 2011-06-28 12:15:37 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: like I said it depends on the price of electricity. power costs vary a lot by country and sometimes even by time of day
1955 2011-06-28 12:17:22 Gonzago has joined
1956 2011-06-28 12:18:17 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: anyway it may not be easy to set up for you either. you should try to get your 5870 set up for mining to see how hard it is.
1957 2011-06-28 12:18:24 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1958 2011-06-28 12:18:30 cacheson has joined
1959 2011-06-28 12:18:37 xtalmath has joined
1960 2011-06-28 12:18:38 Klash_ has joined
1961 2011-06-28 12:18:46 xtalmath has left ()
1962 2011-06-28 12:18:52 <pirrr> FYI: fallback node list: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes
1963 2011-06-28 12:18:55 xtalmath has joined
1964 2011-06-28 12:18:58 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1965 2011-06-28 12:18:59 <pirrr> I don't see testnet on there :{
1966 2011-06-28 12:19:25 <lfm> pirrr: ya testnet gets forgotten in some places
1967 2011-06-28 12:19:52 Lenovo01 has joined
1968 2011-06-28 12:20:15 <pirrr> lfm: I see ;)
1969 2011-06-28 12:21:30 Kurtov has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1970 2011-06-28 12:21:53 Lenovo01 has left ()
1971 2011-06-28 12:22:05 <knotwork> Anthraxium-64 check out purported work happening on ASIC chips too, if they come out on schedule it might be better to make a farm that uses them instead of GPUs
1972 2011-06-28 12:23:26 karnac has joined
1973 2011-06-28 12:24:10 <lfm> ya there are people working on fpga miners too but neither seem willing to share much since they can be worth 1000s of dollars to the maker
1974 2011-06-28 12:24:40 <Mqrius> Hm, weird. If I try to add a priv/pub key pair to my wallet with bitcointools, it seems to work. But if I try to add an address, it 'forgets' the some characters...
1975 2011-06-28 12:24:50 <knotwork> fpga isnt looking verry cost-effective tho is it?
1976 2011-06-28 12:24:58 cryptocnt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1977 2011-06-28 12:25:20 <knotwork> tho I guess that depends on what it takes to switch from prototyping it on prototyping boards to doing a production run
1978 2011-06-28 12:25:26 <sipa> pirrr: bitcoin.sipa.be has a testnet node
1979 2011-06-28 12:25:51 <lfm> some of the newest fpga were looking feasible lst time I looked at the discussion. That was a few weeks ago tho so it might have changed
1980 2011-06-28 12:26:12 <knotwork> last I heard you'd need a $500 or $600 ($350 maybe if you are a student or professor etc) prototyping board to run their design that oly gets 80MH/s
1981 2011-06-28 12:26:19 Katibe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1982 2011-06-28 12:26:27 <pirrr> thanks sipa !
1983 2011-06-28 12:26:43 <knotwork> I dunno tho how much a production run of boards based on such a prototype would cost for how large a production run
1984 2011-06-28 12:27:42 Katibe has joined
1985 2011-06-28 12:28:00 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1986 2011-06-28 12:28:00 <lfm> and if you figure out how to make it profitable to mine why sell them, just mine for yourself
1987 2011-06-28 12:28:04 vragnaroda has joined
1988 2011-06-28 12:29:30 <phantomcircuit> lfm, you need a lot of space for an sh256 unrolled * 2
1989 2011-06-28 12:29:32 <Mqrius> lfm: if someone has just 1 fpga, it may be more profitable to sell the code.
1990 2011-06-28 12:30:04 MetaV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1991 2011-06-28 12:33:31 Katibe has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1992 2011-06-28 12:34:37 b4epoche_ has joined
1993 2011-06-28 12:34:50 Katibe has joined
1994 2011-06-28 12:36:09 <ius> Did anyone ever torture bitcoin using valgrind? Lots of memcpy warnings from library calls (not sure why?) but it also claims there are leaks
1995 2011-06-28 12:36:14 vragnaroda has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1996 2011-06-28 12:36:26 <Mqrius> Is gavinandresen around? I think I found a bug in his code. And how to fix it (well, work around it, anyway)
1997 2011-06-28 12:36:30 N0va` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1998 2011-06-28 12:36:30 <lfm> oh crap someone is pushing up the testnet difficulty again, up to 175.304 and est next difficulty: 532.23, in 4.13 days
1999 2011-06-28 12:36:42 <sipa> Mqrius: report it on github
2000 2011-06-28 12:37:24 <lfm> Mqrius: you could try putting something up on the forums
2001 2011-06-28 12:37:45 <b4epoche> signal to noise on forums is getting very low
2002 2011-06-28 12:37:53 <ius> issue tracker should be the place to be really
2003 2011-06-28 12:37:53 <sipa> Mqrius: or just ask here if you're unsure
2004 2011-06-28 12:37:56 <Mqrius> I'll see if I can easily report it on github, and otherwise I'll try the forums
2005 2011-06-28 12:38:14 Katibe has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2006 2011-06-28 12:38:18 <lfm> Mqrius: or tell sipa sure
2007 2011-06-28 12:38:59 <sipa> ius: thanks for the pointercast btw, it was no problem, but it's fixed now (not yet pushed)
2008 2011-06-28 12:39:21 Katibe has joined
2009 2011-06-28 12:39:25 <ius> I know it isn't, but meh, warnings ;)
2010 2011-06-28 12:39:35 <makomk> knotwork: 100 Mhash/sec in theory, but pretty much...
2011 2011-06-28 12:39:40 <sipa> and indeed, -Wall should be defau;t
2012 2011-06-28 12:39:43 MetaV has joined
2013 2011-06-28 12:40:12 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014 2011-06-28 12:40:30 devrandom has joined
2015 2011-06-28 12:40:33 <knotwork> makomk ok but what *is* the ballpark cost of using production boards instead of prototyping boards?
2016 2011-06-28 12:42:00 <makomk> No idea, probably at *least* $300 though...
2017 2011-06-28 12:42:15 vragnaroda has joined
2018 2011-06-28 12:42:53 <knotwork> a local professor of electrical engineering was interested wants me to email him, generic ASIC/FPGA concepts not specifically bitcoin as application
2019 2011-06-28 12:43:18 <knotwork> (if he knew why I was interested in such things and it is profitably do-able why would he need me if he knows what app I have in mind)
2020 2011-06-28 12:44:17 <knotwork> makomk how much watts would this hypothetical $300 board you mention use?
2021 2011-06-28 12:45:58 <makomk> Hypothetically, probably less than 8 watts? Haven't really doine the maths.
2022 2011-06-28 12:46:24 <knotwork> so as an electric heater it would be prohibitive capital cost :)
2023 2011-06-28 12:46:25 <Mqrius> Uhm, wasn't there some method to allow the bitcoin client to send small transactions without fees?
2024 2011-06-28 12:47:08 <lfm> Mqrius: yes
2025 2011-06-28 12:47:33 <lfm> there was
2026 2011-06-28 12:47:35 <lfm> once
2027 2011-06-28 12:47:41 <pirrr> Question: what if someone 'makes' biollions and billions of bitcoin addresses?
2028 2011-06-28 12:47:44 ThomasV has joined
2029 2011-06-28 12:47:50 <pirrr> s/biollions/billions
2030 2011-06-28 12:48:02 Nexus7 has joined
2031 2011-06-28 12:48:03 <pirrr> and address space runs out?
2032 2011-06-28 12:48:05 <lfm> pirrr: then THEIR wallet.dat file will be quite big
2033 2011-06-28 12:48:05 <ius> pirrr: Nothing
2034 2011-06-28 12:48:10 oozyburglar has joined
2035 2011-06-28 12:48:21 johnlockwood_ has joined
2036 2011-06-28 12:48:23 <lfm> pirrr: address space would not run out
2037 2011-06-28 12:48:26 <ersi> pirrr: Then we'll cry that person a river
2038 2011-06-28 12:49:03 johnlockwood__ has joined
2039 2011-06-28 12:49:14 MartianW has joined
2040 2011-06-28 12:49:17 <lfm> pirrr: address space is 2^180
2041 2011-06-28 12:49:30 <ius> A billion is 2^9, address hash space 2^160..
2042 2011-06-28 12:49:31 <ThomasV> hashes running out ? :-D
2043 2011-06-28 12:49:34 <lfm> pirrr: address space is 2^160 I mean
2044 2011-06-28 12:49:41 <pirrr> That is quote a lot ;)
2045 2011-06-28 12:49:46 <pirrr> s/quote/quite
2046 2011-06-28 12:50:00 <lfm> ya so millions and millions would not even be a drop in a bucket
2047 2011-06-28 12:50:06 <pirrr> cool
2048 2011-06-28 12:50:37 <Mqrius> *Waits for network to verify test transfer
2049 2011-06-28 12:50:46 <lfm> ya even billions and billions would not even be a drop in a bucket
2050 2011-06-28 12:50:53 <pirrr> And an other thing, I just found out about 'accounts'. Sounds very useful!
2051 2011-06-28 12:51:00 <pirrr> Mqrius: do you get connections?
2052 2011-06-28 12:51:22 <Mqrius> pirrr: yeah, it's just that I just clicked 'send' :P
2053 2011-06-28 12:51:36 p0s has joined
2054 2011-06-28 12:52:01 <lfm> testnet Average interval last 144 blocks: 3.62 min
2055 2011-06-28 12:52:01 <pirrr> On my home PC, I get 8 connections. On my server, I only get the one hard-configged one...
2056 2011-06-28 12:52:48 johnlockwood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2057 2011-06-28 12:52:52 <ius> pirrr: Firewall? Although you should be able to connect to multiple nodes even if you're not able to listen..
2058 2011-06-28 12:53:53 <lfm> pirrr: hard configged? did you use -connect= or -adnode= ??
2059 2011-06-28 12:54:03 <lfm> -addnode
2060 2011-06-28 12:54:21 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
2061 2011-06-28 12:54:21 <pirrr> $ cat bitcoin.conf  | grep connect
2062 2011-06-28 12:54:21 <pirrr> connect=69.164.218.197
2063 2011-06-28 12:54:35 <lfm> if you use -connect= then you will only get that one connect
2064 2011-06-28 12:54:42 <pirrr> AFAIK I Don't have a firewall
2065 2011-06-28 12:54:51 <lfm> change it to addnode=
2066 2011-06-28 12:55:48 <pirrr> That worked lfm !
2067 2011-06-28 12:55:57 <pirrr> I now have 8 connections at home and 8 on my server
2068 2011-06-28 12:55:58 <lfm> yes of course it worked
2069 2011-06-28 12:56:04 <pirrr> ;)
2070 2011-06-28 12:56:46 <Anthraxium-64> omg bitcoin is so slow to download
2071 2011-06-28 12:56:57 <lfm> Anthraxium-64: yup
2072 2011-06-28 12:57:46 <Anthraxium-64> damn the blocks
2073 2011-06-28 12:57:46 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2074 2011-06-28 12:58:21 nocreativenick1 has joined
2075 2011-06-28 12:59:21 <Mqrius> If I put a transaction into the aether, but it's not in a block yet, can I still see it in blockexplorer?
2076 2011-06-28 12:59:54 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2077 2011-06-28 13:00:39 <sipa> no
2078 2011-06-28 13:01:02 <lfm> hmm, looks like the bug miner dropped offa testnet. 15 min since the last block
2079 2011-06-28 13:01:06 unclemantis has joined
2080 2011-06-28 13:01:13 <lfm> bug -> big
2081 2011-06-28 13:02:31 <lfm> nm now theres 3 blocks in 2 min
2082 2011-06-28 13:02:37 <Mqrius> lol
2083 2011-06-28 13:02:42 RenaKunisaki has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2084 2011-06-28 13:08:04 RenaKunisaki has joined
2085 2011-06-28 13:08:14 <ius> \o/ fixed asio issues
2086 2011-06-28 13:08:34 <ius> ..but I still feel clueless using boost (or C++ for that matter)
2087 2011-06-28 13:08:53 koleg has quit (work!~kvirc@89.151.191.66|Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
2088 2011-06-28 13:10:50 scott`_ has joined
2089 2011-06-28 13:11:51 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2090 2011-06-28 13:15:38 <yorick> upb: Crypto.charenc.Binary.stringToBytes(message)
2091 2011-06-28 13:17:16 Gonzago has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2092 2011-06-28 13:18:21 lumos has joined
2093 2011-06-28 13:20:06 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2094 2011-06-28 13:21:02 kermit has joined
2095 2011-06-28 13:23:25 cdecker has joined
2096 2011-06-28 13:27:22 vragnaroda has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2097 2011-06-28 13:27:24 d1g1t4l has joined
2098 2011-06-28 13:28:48 cdecker_ has joined
2099 2011-06-28 13:32:08 <b4epoche> ius:  what are you /clueful/ about?
2100 2011-06-28 13:34:08 Lenovo__xxx has joined
2101 2011-06-28 13:34:45 Lenovo__xxx has left ()
2102 2011-06-28 13:35:46 skeledrew1 has joined
2103 2011-06-28 13:36:06 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2104 2011-06-28 13:37:48 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2105 2011-06-28 13:42:58 johnlockwood__ has left ()
2106 2011-06-28 13:43:48 repl has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2107 2011-06-28 13:44:00 Lenovo01 has joined
2108 2011-06-28 13:44:34 Lenovo01 has left ()
2109 2011-06-28 13:44:37 <upb> yorick: what ?:P
2110 2011-06-28 13:44:48 vragnaroda has joined
2111 2011-06-28 13:45:10 <lfm> upb you said you were cluelss about boost and C++
2112 2011-06-28 13:45:50 <upb> where and when did i say that heh
2113 2011-06-28 13:46:07 <lfm> oh ius said it
2114 2011-06-28 13:46:14 <upb> yorick: asString and asBytes influence the output
2115 2011-06-28 13:46:16 <upb> not input
2116 2011-06-28 13:46:43 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2117 2011-06-28 13:47:11 <pirrr> I have another question :P. I have bitcoind running (by user `bitcoin`). How can I do CLI API calls with my own account? :)
2118 2011-06-28 13:47:28 <yorick> upb: oh...at least you can use Crypto.charenc.Binary.stringToBytes(message) to convert the message to a byte array
2119 2011-06-28 13:47:29 Zarutian has joined
2120 2011-06-28 13:47:43 <yorick> pirrr: find the socket it is running on
2121 2011-06-28 13:47:58 <lfm> pirrr: make .bitcoin dirr in both accounts and copy rpcurser and rpcpassword
2122 2011-06-28 13:48:14 <upb> yorick: ah sure
2123 2011-06-28 13:48:25 <lfm> rpcuser and rpcpassword in bitcoin.conf
2124 2011-06-28 13:48:28 <upb> give me a pull request :D:D:D
2125 2011-06-28 13:48:31 <upb> j/k
2126 2011-06-28 13:49:09 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2127 2011-06-28 13:49:21 <lfm> it should work fine with default ports then
2128 2011-06-28 13:49:31 <yorick> upb: then I need all kinds of forks...too much work
2129 2011-06-28 13:49:44 <upb> indeed
2130 2011-06-28 13:49:48 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2131 2011-06-28 13:50:19 <lfm> upb ok, here pull my finger ...
2132 2011-06-28 13:50:34 <yorick> upb: http://sprunge.us/LAYA
2133 2011-06-28 13:50:43 repl has joined
2134 2011-06-28 13:50:45 <upb> lfm: dude what are you on about :P
2135 2011-06-28 13:50:47 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2136 2011-06-28 13:50:58 <lfm> you wanted a pull request?
2137 2011-06-28 13:51:04 <upb> LOL
2138 2011-06-28 13:51:09 <upb> haha
2139 2011-06-28 13:51:21 <yorick> upb: and yes, those are spaces and not tabs
2140 2011-06-28 13:51:54 <lfm> pirrr: you got it to work yet?
2141 2011-06-28 13:52:18 <pirrr> not yet...
2142 2011-06-28 13:54:06 <pirrr> $ bitcoind getinfo
2143 2011-06-28 13:54:06 <pirrr> error: couldn't connect to server
2144 2011-06-28 13:54:11 <lfm> pirrr: just cp ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf from one account to the other
2145 2011-06-28 13:54:26 <upb> commited, thx
2146 2011-06-28 13:54:31 <pirrr> won't that start a new bitcoind instance?
2147 2011-06-28 13:54:38 <pirrr> let's try
2148 2011-06-28 13:55:06 <lfm> no, not if you use the right args
2149 2011-06-28 13:55:43 <lfm> you should then be able to run bitcoind help
2150 2011-06-28 13:55:51 <lfm> you should then be able to run "bitcoind help"
2151 2011-06-28 13:57:30 <pirrr> $ sudo cat /home/bitcoin/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf > ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
2152 2011-06-28 13:57:31 <pirrr> $ bitcoind getinfo
2153 2011-06-28 13:57:31 <pirrr> {
2154 2011-06-28 13:57:31 <pirrr>     "version" : 32300,
2155 2011-06-28 13:57:33 <pirrr> ...
2156 2011-06-28 13:57:38 <lfm> yay
2157 2011-06-28 13:58:03 <pirrr> :D
2158 2011-06-28 13:58:32 <pirrr> Now let's try this for the www-data user
2159 2011-06-28 13:58:44 AnatolV_ has joined
2160 2011-06-28 13:59:04 Glasswalker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2161 2011-06-28 13:59:39 ar4s has joined
2162 2011-06-28 13:59:53 <lfm> careful of your security. with ose user/password copies you are makeing holes between the accounts acutally
2163 2011-06-28 14:00:24 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2164 2011-06-28 14:00:44 AnatolV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2165 2011-06-28 14:02:02 vragnaroda has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2166 2011-06-28 14:02:55 vragnaroda has joined
2167 2011-06-28 14:03:54 huk has quit ()
2168 2011-06-28 14:04:05 TommyBoy3G has quit ()
2169 2011-06-28 14:05:35 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2170 2011-06-28 14:05:57 zapnap has joined
2171 2011-06-28 14:06:37 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2172 2011-06-28 14:06:51 <pirrr> EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_10filesystem22basic_filesystem_errorINS3_10basic_pathISsNS3_11path_traitsEEEEEEEEE
2173 2011-06-28 14:06:51 <pirrr> boost::filesystem::create_directory: Permission denied: "/.bitcoin"
2174 2011-06-28 14:06:53 <pirrr> meh
2175 2011-06-28 14:07:12 <pirrr> CGI apache scripts don't seem to use the $HOME directory very well
2176 2011-06-28 14:07:27 josephholsten has joined
2177 2011-06-28 14:07:30 <lfm> hehe ah ya
2178 2011-06-28 14:08:16 <pirrr> maybe I should write my own custom curl scripts...
2179 2011-06-28 14:08:27 <lfm> use the -conf=dir arg
2180 2011-06-28 14:08:52 <lfm> or -datadir= arg even better
2181 2011-06-28 14:09:20 <pirrr> bitcoind -datadir /var/www/.bitcoin/
2182 2011-06-28 14:09:21 <pirrr> ?
2183 2011-06-28 14:09:42 <lfm> bitcoind -datadir=/var/www/.bitcoin/
2184 2011-06-28 14:09:51 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2185 2011-06-28 14:09:54 <pirrr> YAY
2186 2011-06-28 14:10:42 josephholsten has quit (Client Quit)
2187 2011-06-28 14:11:05 josephholsten has joined
2188 2011-06-28 14:11:27 red_dawn_ has joined
2189 2011-06-28 14:11:52 <b4epoche> is there really any reason to let people turn off UPnP if the library is installed?
2190 2011-06-28 14:12:35 <lfm> b4epoche some people dont like it cuz they think its a security problem
2191 2011-06-28 14:12:37 <yorick> b4epoche: unneeded?
2192 2011-06-28 14:12:45 <upb> sure it could mess up their routers
2193 2011-06-28 14:12:55 <yorick> bothering their routers
2194 2011-06-28 14:13:14 m00p has joined
2195 2011-06-28 14:13:31 <lfm> if you have lots of machines you should only have it enabled on one I think also
2196 2011-06-28 14:14:49 Forexmasterja_2 is now known as Forexmasterja
2197 2011-06-28 14:15:04 Gekz has joined
2198 2011-06-28 14:15:04 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
2199 2011-06-28 14:15:05 Gekz has joined
2200 2011-06-28 14:16:17 sgornick has joined
2201 2011-06-28 14:16:42 TheZimm has joined
2202 2011-06-28 14:19:19 molecular has joined
2203 2011-06-28 14:19:48 glassresistor has joined
2204 2011-06-28 14:20:41 skeledrew has joined
2205 2011-06-28 14:20:51 <unclemantis> anyone know of any shops online that are selling video cards for BTC?
2206 2011-06-28 14:22:31 <phantomcircuit> that aren't sold out ? :P
2207 2011-06-28 14:22:45 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2208 2011-06-28 14:23:45 <MrSam> unclemantis: i'll sell you my card
2209 2011-06-28 14:24:02 <MrSam> 100 btc ?
2210 2011-06-28 14:25:06 <lfm> what model of card?
2211 2011-06-28 14:25:12 <MrSam> 6990 x2
2212 2011-06-28 14:25:54 <lfm> so thats for the two cards?
2213 2011-06-28 14:27:05 <MrSam> sure
2214 2011-06-28 14:27:12 <MrSam> should i ask more ? :P
2215 2011-06-28 14:27:19 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2216 2011-06-28 14:27:20 <lfm> cuz 100BTC for one card (with 2 gpu) is pretty high price
2217 2011-06-28 14:28:21 <b4epoche> so, I should give folks the opportunity to turn it off in the GUI...
2218 2011-06-28 14:28:23 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2219 2011-06-28 14:28:58 <lfm> gui or command line or config file I dont care
2220 2011-06-28 14:29:30 <b4epoche> this if for folks who don't know what a command line is, or a config file
2221 2011-06-28 14:29:38 <lfm> screw them
2222 2011-06-28 14:29:55 <unclemantis> 100btc? holy cow
2223 2011-06-28 14:30:10 <b4epoche> you want the price of btc to go up?  you gotta get more suckers on the field
2224 2011-06-28 14:30:45 <unclemantis> i don't have a lot of money to front, so i am trying to start small and build up when i can
2225 2011-06-28 14:31:36 <lfm> b4epoche if they dont know how to set a command line switch or set up a config file then they prolly wont know what upnp is or does or what it should be set to
2226 2011-06-28 14:31:56 <b4epoche> lfm:  that's my thought too
2227 2011-06-28 14:32:34 <unclemantis> http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5870/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5870-overview.aspx
2228 2011-06-28 14:32:41 <unclemantis> is this THE BEST right now?
2229 2011-06-28 14:32:53 <b4epoche> but I'll probably include it for the geeks…  although they should be able to run it from command line with args
2230 2011-06-28 14:33:00 <unclemantis> or this one http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-5000/hd-5970/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5970-overview.aspx
2231 2011-06-28 14:33:45 Tim-7967 has joined
2232 2011-06-28 14:34:22 <lfm> I think 5970 are still the best if you can find them
2233 2011-06-28 14:34:28 <unclemantis> http://www.circuitsnthings.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=110&page=shop.product_details&flypage=yagendoo_VaMazing_2.tpl&product_id=104530&category_id=850
2234 2011-06-28 14:34:34 <lfm> 6990 are prtty close tho
2235 2011-06-28 14:34:38 <ius> b4epoche: Anything 'cept C++ template magic like boost ;)
2236 2011-06-28 14:34:46 <unclemantis> dang that is expensive!!!
2237 2011-06-28 14:34:55 <unclemantis> STARTING at $611.09
2238 2011-06-28 14:35:20 <gmaxwell> chances are they don't actually have them regardless.
2239 2011-06-28 14:35:24 <unclemantis> looking for something between $100 and $200 that will return my investment in under a month
2240 2011-06-28 14:35:39 <lfm> unclemantis: snake oil?
2241 2011-06-28 14:35:40 <jrmithdobbs> #bitcoin-mining
2242 2011-06-28 14:35:50 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2243 2011-06-28 14:36:08 <unclemantis> jrmithdobbs sorry, forgot
2244 2011-06-28 14:37:40 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * re4d4de05cf73 mining-proxy/htdocs/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Add error message to the dashboard when allow_url_fopen is disabled http://tinyurl.com/6yvqjyd
2245 2011-06-28 14:41:27 <upb> lfm: you dont have anything against jews do you ?
2246 2011-06-28 14:41:55 <lfm> I dont think so, why?
2247 2011-06-28 14:42:04 <upb> good, otherwise i'd be offended
2248 2011-06-28 14:42:18 <upb> thought maybe your weird remarks were due to my name
2249 2011-06-28 14:42:28 <lfm> I dont know your name
2250 2011-06-28 14:42:36 <lfm> Im just weird
2251 2011-06-28 14:42:39 <upb> ah ok, it was on the github page
2252 2011-06-28 14:42:47 <upb> nm then
2253 2011-06-28 14:42:52 <lfm> np
2254 2011-06-28 14:45:34 Akiron has joined
2255 2011-06-28 14:45:45 xelister has joined
2256 2011-06-28 14:46:51 dbasch has joined
2257 2011-06-28 14:50:53 Lenovo01 has joined
2258 2011-06-28 14:51:11 Lenovo01 has left ()
2259 2011-06-28 14:52:16 cdecker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2260 2011-06-28 14:52:41 <phantomcircuit> upb, jews are cool they're where money comes from right?
2261 2011-06-28 14:52:47 cdecker has joined
2262 2011-06-28 14:52:59 <upb> yeap pretty much, also theyre where the interest goes
2263 2011-06-28 14:53:23 <phantomcircuit> omg really
2264 2011-06-28 14:53:36 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2265 2011-06-28 14:53:57 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2266 2011-06-28 14:54:28 <lfm> I dont mind jew in general but I dont like bankers
2267 2011-06-28 14:54:33 eskeln has joined
2268 2011-06-28 14:54:33 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
2269 2011-06-28 14:54:45 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2270 2011-06-28 14:54:56 dstien has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2271 2011-06-28 14:55:02 Sthebig has joined
2272 2011-06-28 14:55:33 <lfm> I dont llike bankers no matter what their ethicicty is
2273 2011-06-28 14:55:55 dstien has joined
2274 2011-06-28 14:56:28 Sedra has joined
2275 2011-06-28 14:56:43 <lfm> ethnicity sp?
2276 2011-06-28 14:56:44 <yorick> note to self: 7 + 4 = 12, not 13
2277 2011-06-28 14:56:53 Nachtwin- has joined
2278 2011-06-28 14:56:57 <Nachtwin-> hi
2279 2011-06-28 14:57:05 <lfm> hi
2280 2011-06-28 14:57:10 <Choko> yorick: nor 11
2281 2011-06-28 14:57:20 <erus`> I dont like any religious people. They are irrational.
2282 2011-06-28 14:57:55 <Nachtwin-> i have a problem with bitcoind under linux: Whenever i start it with --daemon the server tends to refuse any connection to it or from it after a couple of hours leaving me to restart it then. Is there anything i can do about it?
2283 2011-06-28 14:58:11 <yorick> Choko: unless base 11, then 11
2284 2011-06-28 14:58:20 <ius> erus`: I think everyone is entitled to their own (irrational) opinion ;)
2285 2011-06-28 14:58:26 <upb> interesting, i did a tx 21 minutes ago, paid the 0.005 fee, still 0/unconfirmed
2286 2011-06-28 14:58:39 <yorick> ius: holocoust-denial?
2287 2011-06-28 14:59:02 <lfm> Nachtwin-: what version is it?
2288 2011-06-28 14:59:10 <ius> yorick: That's no opinion
2289 2011-06-28 14:59:29 <upb> holocoust-denial is like spitting in the face of the 6 billion jews who got brutally murdered by nazis
2290 2011-06-28 14:59:51 <lfm> 6 billion now?
2291 2011-06-28 14:59:52 <yorick> ius: how not?
2292 2011-06-28 15:00:09 <yorick> that's 6*10^6?
2293 2011-06-28 15:00:17 <upb> yes, are you questioning the number?
2294 2011-06-28 15:00:43 <ius> Although I have to say I don't really see why it should be punishable. If someone claims the holocaust was a hoax.. well yeah, perhaps I'll 'dislike' them - for being a complete irrational idiot ;)
2295 2011-06-28 15:00:43 <Nachtwin-> i do
2296 2011-06-28 15:00:59 <Nachtwin-> i think it was more like 6 million
2297 2011-06-28 15:01:02 <erus`> yeah free speech!
2298 2011-06-28 15:01:10 <Nachtwin-> not even the nazis achieved to kill twice the population on earth
2299 2011-06-28 15:01:12 <erus`> 6 million jews and a clown
2300 2011-06-28 15:01:13 <lfm> Ya, I know it is verboten to question the number, far be it from me to step into that line of fire
2301 2011-06-28 15:01:14 <upb> 6*10^9
2302 2011-06-28 15:01:22 <yorick> Nachtwin-: he might be confusing bilion/milion
2303 2011-06-28 15:01:33 <yorick> upb: there aren't even 8 bilion people alive today
2304 2011-06-28 15:01:41 <upb> ofcourse, because they got murdered
2305 2011-06-28 15:01:50 DD- has quit ()
2306 2011-06-28 15:01:59 <upb> we have suffered so much, first were treated as slaves in egypt, driven out of our promised land
2307 2011-06-28 15:02:03 <yorick> upb: there were not 6 billion people in 1940
2308 2011-06-28 15:02:04 <upb> and then the nazis :(
2309 2011-06-28 15:02:12 <upb> yes there were, youre a denier
2310 2011-06-28 15:02:28 <lfm> yorick: dont you know before the nazis pulled their little stunt jew used to make up 90% of the world's population
2311 2011-06-28 15:02:29 <yorick> upb: you're a troll
2312 2011-06-28 15:02:34 CheapScotsman has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2313 2011-06-28 15:02:53 <yorick> lfm: hitler must have gotten a majority by all the jews voting on him then
2314 2011-06-28 15:03:01 CheapScotsman has joined
2315 2011-06-28 15:03:44 <lfm> yorick: ya, that was the start of the trouble, Hilter reneged on his election promises
2316 2011-06-28 15:03:53 <erus`> some jews helped him didnt they?
2317 2011-06-28 15:04:47 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2318 2011-06-28 15:05:19 <yorick> lfm: well his election promises talked about getting rid of foreigners "including jews"
2319 2011-06-28 15:05:45 <upb> yorick: no
2320 2011-06-28 15:06:07 <lfm> yorick: oh well I guess he taylored his message in predominantly jewish precincts
2321 2011-06-28 15:06:11 <Nachtwin-> nope, he promised work and wealth
2322 2011-06-28 15:06:15 <phantomcircuit> erus`, WHY THE CLOWN?!?!
2323 2011-06-28 15:06:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I got bored, so I did the time stuff now: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/360
2324 2011-06-28 15:06:29 <phantomcircuit> but seriously no more holocaust jokes or ill ban you
2325 2011-06-28 15:06:36 bluenemo has joined
2326 2011-06-28 15:06:38 <Nachtwin-> jews and foreigners were made scapegoats for the lost war
2327 2011-06-28 15:06:40 <erus`> lighten up
2328 2011-06-28 15:06:41 <bluenemo> yeah hitler is evil
2329 2011-06-28 15:06:51 <BlueMatt> wait, wtf is going on here?
2330 2011-06-28 15:06:53 <MrSam> :P
2331 2011-06-28 15:06:55 <upb> l;ol
2332 2011-06-28 15:06:57 <upb> lol
2333 2011-06-28 15:06:57 <bluenemo> we discuss hitle
2334 2011-06-28 15:06:57 <MrSam> i had the same reaction
2335 2011-06-28 15:06:58 <bluenemo> r
2336 2011-06-28 15:06:59 <erus`> people choose to get offended by words
2337 2011-06-28 15:07:13 <bluenemo> hitler choose to be evil.
2338 2011-06-28 15:07:19 <phantomcircuit> lol like half the britcoin support tickets are people who dont have complete block chains
2339 2011-06-28 15:07:23 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
2340 2011-06-28 15:07:25 <Nachtwin-> anyhow..back to something technical. I wonder if bitcoind --daemon can somehow crash a debian system
2341 2011-06-28 15:07:26 <ius> Who got Godwin involved in the first place?
2342 2011-06-28 15:07:27 <ius> ;)
2343 2011-06-28 15:07:30 <Nachtwin-> like having a memory leak or so
2344 2011-06-28 15:07:37 <BlueMatt> erus`: yes, but if you offend people, it doesnt matter if its because they chose to be offended or not, you get kicked
2345 2011-06-28 15:07:40 <phantomcircuit> Nachtwin-, how much memory
2346 2011-06-28 15:07:45 <erus`> ius upb
2347 2011-06-28 15:07:48 <Nachtwin-> 512
2348 2011-06-28 15:07:54 <Nachtwin-> MB that is .0)
2349 2011-06-28 15:08:09 <phantomcircuit> Nachtwin-, -maxconnections 25
2350 2011-06-28 15:08:11 <erus`> i am offended by your statement! kick BlueMatt please
2351 2011-06-28 15:08:32 * upb thinks we need to get efraim zuroff involved
2352 2011-06-28 15:08:46 <yorick> I'm offended by erus being offended! kick erus!
2353 2011-06-28 15:08:46 <Nachtwin-> hm, didnt know this parameter.. what is default?
2354 2011-06-28 15:08:49 * BlueMatt thinks this whole discussion just needs to end
2355 2011-06-28 15:08:50 Nachtwin- is now known as Nachtwind
2356 2011-06-28 15:08:52 <yorick> Nachtwind: 8
2357 2011-06-28 15:09:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i forgot this was #bitcoin-dev
2358 2011-06-28 15:09:07 <MrSam> end by gassing those who you don't like ?
2359 2011-06-28 15:09:12 <phantomcircuit> i was just going to ban everybody
2360 2011-06-28 15:09:26 bluenemo has left ("Verlassend")
2361 2011-06-28 15:09:31 skeledrew has joined
2362 2011-06-28 15:09:36 * lfm hides in corner
2363 2011-06-28 15:10:07 <Nachtwind> how can raising that help me?
2364 2011-06-28 15:10:07 <jrmithdobbs> yhbt
2365 2011-06-28 15:10:09 <erus`> why are people so anti free speech these days?
2366 2011-06-28 15:10:12 <phantomcircuit> THE BAN HAMMER OF THOR
2367 2011-06-28 15:10:31 <BlueMatt> erus`: there is a difference between free speech an offensive speech
2368 2011-06-28 15:10:34 <phantomcircuit> erus`, you're free to speak... about bitcoin development
2369 2011-06-28 15:10:59 <erus`> BlueMatt offensive speech is relative
2370 2011-06-28 15:11:03 <lfm> irc is not a soapbox theoreticlly
2371 2011-06-28 15:11:11 gsathya has joined
2372 2011-06-28 15:11:15 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2373 2011-06-28 15:11:16 * yorick thinks the bitcoin code is gay
2374 2011-06-28 15:11:18 gsathya has left ()
2375 2011-06-28 15:11:51 <phantomcircuit> erus`, #bitcoin-hatespeech, all for you!
2376 2011-06-28 15:11:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Does github provide a way to diff the diffs when yup update your patch? It's a little boring to have to reread it when you changed it.
2377 2011-06-28 15:11:56 <BlueMatt> erus`: in any case, any discussion on this chan that is most likely offensive to a large group of people gets you banned
2378 2011-06-28 15:12:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: not to my knowledge
2379 2011-06-28 15:12:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not when one push -f s after rebase
2380 2011-06-28 15:12:27 <MrSam> BlueMatt: what if the majority of the channel is white ?
2381 2011-06-28 15:12:44 <erus`> the whole idea of bitcoin is probably offensive to the majority of people (ignorant people non the less)
2382 2011-06-28 15:12:47 <BlueMatt> MrSam: or if it likely offends a majority, its not hard, just think it through before you say it
2383 2011-06-28 15:12:48 <gmaxwell> This trolling crap is OT.
2384 2011-06-28 15:12:58 <ius> Less trolling, more #dev
2385 2011-06-28 15:13:01 <MrSam> :P
2386 2011-06-28 15:13:03 <MrSam> so
2387 2011-06-28 15:13:07 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: grow some balls and just ban them already
2388 2011-06-28 15:13:18 <lfm> MrSam: doesnt matter what the majority is, it matter what the rules are and what the people who enforce them say
2389 2011-06-28 15:13:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so far today, Ive changed nothing except minor bugs that were just typos
2390 2011-06-28 15:13:23 <Nachtwind> added the parameter and get: error: couldn't connect to server
2391 2011-06-28 15:13:45 <MrSam> rules !
2392 2011-06-28 15:13:52 <MrSam> it's what got us into reversing trades !
2393 2011-06-28 15:13:59 heeventuli has quit ()
2394 2011-06-28 15:14:17 CheapScotsman has joined
2395 2011-06-28 15:14:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Am I missing a way to force it to forget the keys regardless of the timeout?
2396 2011-06-28 15:14:37 <lfm> MrSam: yup mtgox makes up the rules for their own site.
2397 2011-06-28 15:14:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: what timeout?
2398 2011-06-28 15:14:51 <MrSam> who made up the rules for #bitcoin-dev !
2399 2011-06-28 15:15:02 <MrSam> BlueMatt should have been elected !
2400 2011-06-28 15:15:12 wolfspraul has joined
2401 2011-06-28 15:15:12 <BlueMatt> MrSam: I make them up as I go
2402 2011-06-28 15:15:19 <MrSam> and so you should
2403 2011-06-28 15:15:22 <MrSam> :)
2404 2011-06-28 15:15:26 <lfm> mrsam, nope no elections needed
2405 2011-06-28 15:15:48 <erus`> did that guy get bitcoin building with mingw in the end?
2406 2011-06-28 15:16:17 <BlueMatt> if you mean me, yes, but not via autotools
2407 2011-06-28 15:16:27 <BlueMatt> bitcoin has been cross compiled using mingw since 0.3.22
2408 2011-06-28 15:16:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: e.g. if you walletpassword [...] 9999  then decide you'd like to forget it now.
2409 2011-06-28 15:16:33 <BlueMatt> (the release versions)
2410 2011-06-28 15:16:34 dongs has joined
2411 2011-06-28 15:16:38 <erus`> his name was mauve or somethin
2412 2011-06-28 15:16:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: currently, no
2413 2011-06-28 15:16:52 Dawai has joined
2414 2011-06-28 15:17:07 <BlueMatt> erus`: no idea
2415 2011-06-28 15:17:09 <lfm> erus`: I dont think he said
2416 2011-06-28 15:17:14 <erus`> BlueMatt building from *nix system?
2417 2011-06-28 15:17:22 Nachtwind has left ()
2418 2011-06-28 15:17:23 <Anthraxium-64> what is the current conversion rate for 1 BTC to EUR?
2419 2011-06-28 15:17:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: may I suggest walletpassphrase "" 0  (just make a failed attempt to set it forget it?)
2420 2011-06-28 15:17:30 <BlueMatt> erus`: current bitcoin releases are cross compiled built on linux
2421 2011-06-28 15:17:33 <Anthraxium-64> 1 BTC = ? EUR
2422 2011-06-28 15:17:36 <erus`> Anthraxium-64: its 1btc to 10 gbp at the mo
2423 2011-06-28 15:17:44 <erus`> so about the same
2424 2011-06-28 15:17:46 <MrSam> Anthraxium-64: 13, 14 i think
2425 2011-06-28 15:17:55 <Anthraxium-64> ah
2426 2011-06-28 15:18:00 <Anthraxium-64> so 1 btc is worth alot?
2427 2011-06-28 15:18:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I prefer a separate function, or require correct password
2428 2011-06-28 15:18:12 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
2429 2011-06-28 15:18:12 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":17.2356,"low":15,"avg":16.819062866,"vol":22625.019109,"last":17.01689,"buy":17.0169,"sell":17.01669}}
2430 2011-06-28 15:18:13 <MrSam> depends on the time of day/ and the exchange but yeah
2431 2011-06-28 15:18:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the reason I asked is because I want to setup a script to beat the heck out of it and see if I can make it fail, easier to do that if I can trigger the forgetting.
2432 2011-06-28 15:18:23 <MrSam> Anthraxium-64: was 30 usd a few weeks ago
2433 2011-06-28 15:18:44 <MrSam> Anthraxium-64: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
2434 2011-06-28 15:19:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it would be a simple addition if you want to do it just pwalletMain->Lock() in a function somewhere, but Im not sure if it is something that needs added...
2435 2011-06-28 15:19:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: though I suppose it would be useful sometimes
2436 2011-06-28 15:19:10 <b4epoche> not to continue your hate speech discussion or anything, but the Time (magazine) Man of the Year article on Hitler is really interesting
2437 2011-06-28 15:19:13 Dawai has left ()
2438 2011-06-28 15:19:35 <b4epoche> gives a glimpse into how people were thinking at the time (a few years before WWII)
2439 2011-06-28 15:20:01 <gmaxwell> well, for example, you might want to leave your wallet unlocked but set your screensaver to lock it... or for some server app that knows when its done but doesn't know how long it will take.
2440 2011-06-28 15:20:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: though Id like to leave the patch as-is for now, and just add more stuff in separate pulls
2441 2011-06-28 15:20:36 lumos has joined
2442 2011-06-28 15:21:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: should change passphrase change nDeriveIterations?
2443 2011-06-28 15:21:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I believe it should. E.g. if you downgrade computers and waaa-its-slow the tech support reply is "change your password to the same password"
2444 2011-06-28 15:21:50 <BlueMatt> ok
2445 2011-06-28 15:22:44 <lfm> gmaxwell: I dont get it
2446 2011-06-28 15:23:00 Gonzago has joined
2447 2011-06-28 15:25:35 <gmaxwell> lfm: BlueMatt is working on making it turn up the password strengthening when you are on a fast computer. E.g. if users will tolerate 100ms of strengthening, thats a different number of iterations on a P4 and a Opteron.
2448 2011-06-28 15:25:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/b6a0912128195625c63a5cd83d425ae98aa916d3
2449 2011-06-28 15:26:40 <gmaxwell> That should be clamped just in case the timing misbehaves someplace. (or so that really slow machines still get adequate security)
2450 2011-06-28 15:26:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: or should I do dummy values?
2451 2011-06-28 15:27:41 <gmaxwell> (also, or really busy machines)
2452 2011-06-28 15:27:49 <BlueMatt> clamp to 25000 ok?
2453 2011-06-28 15:27:56 <gmaxwell> Yep. Sounds great.
2454 2011-06-28 15:28:08 <gmaxwell> Then its never worse than what it was going to use originally.
2455 2011-06-28 15:28:26 <BlueMatt> ok, its clamped
2456 2011-06-28 15:28:39 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/360
2457 2011-06-28 15:28:42 <lfm> test it on something real slow?
2458 2011-06-28 15:28:42 <BlueMatt> just see the last commit
2459 2011-06-28 15:28:44 CheapScotsman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2460 2011-06-28 15:29:00 <ius> gmaxwell: What if someone creates his passphrase on a modern Core2 and then decides to move his wallet to a dedicated P2 machine?
2461 2011-06-28 15:29:01 <BlueMatt> lfm: yea on my old 1.8 ghz pentium m its 25k rounds per .1 sec
2462 2011-06-28 15:29:12 CheapScotsman has joined
2463 2011-06-28 15:29:21 <gmaxwell> ius: He should reset his passphrase if he finds it to be too slow.
2464 2011-06-28 15:29:36 <ius> Mm point taken ;)
2465 2011-06-28 15:29:41 <gmaxwell> (it will reset the difficulty on passphrase change)
2466 2011-06-28 15:29:42 <BlueMatt> on my i7-920 ocd to 3.8 ghz I get a result anywhere from 150k to 200k
2467 2011-06-28 15:30:11 <BlueMatt> when you are doing .1 sec the variation can be quite large (hence why its done twice and averaged)
2468 2011-06-28 15:31:21 AnatolV_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2469 2011-06-28 15:31:54 <nanotube> BlueMatt: i remember you did some networking-side stuff with upnp... have any ideas what could be causing this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/340
2470 2011-06-28 15:32:21 <BlueMatt> nanotube: sipa linked that too me a while ago and its been sitting on my todo list...
2471 2011-06-28 15:32:28 <BlueMatt> I have a guess or two, but needs some investigation
2472 2011-06-28 15:32:33 <nanotube> BlueMatt: heh ok :)
2473 2011-06-28 15:32:47 <ius> in vprintf, ouch
2474 2011-06-28 15:32:47 <gmaxwell> my, thats an informative backtrace.
2475 2011-06-28 15:32:50 lumos has left ("Leaving")
2476 2011-06-28 15:32:52 <BlueMatt> nanotube: Id bet its a result of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/c6710c7a70658536ab0217dff18a45622ea08680
2477 2011-06-28 15:33:09 Tritonio has joined
2478 2011-06-28 15:33:29 <nanotube> gmaxwell: lol yea. no debugging symbols.
2479 2011-06-28 15:34:01 <nanotube> gmaxwell: ties right into this one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/339
2480 2011-06-28 15:34:06 <BlueMatt> nanotube: but when I have to disconnect my network to test...it just keeps getting pushed off ;)
2481 2011-06-28 15:34:39 <nanotube> BlueMatt: haha i dig :)
2482 2011-06-28 15:34:54 Ramen has joined
2483 2011-06-28 15:34:54 <nanotube> BlueMatt: i only discovered it because i was trying to use it on my offline airgapped wallet box
2484 2011-06-28 15:35:28 <gmaxwell> "Unstripped bitcoin is something like 100+megs, that seems like an excessive amount to ship.
2485 2011-06-28 15:35:31 <gmaxwell> 0_o
2486 2011-06-28 15:35:33 <gmaxwell> "
2487 2011-06-28 15:35:37 <BlueMatt> yea, I have bitcoin in a dedicated vm now (not that I have many coins to protect so its not a big deal) so I can test that when I get around to it
2488 2011-06-28 15:35:52 <gmaxwell> go go static libraries.
2489 2011-06-28 15:35:54 <BlueMatt> -rwxr-xr-x 1 matt matt 86M 2011-06-28 17:23 bitcoin
2490 2011-06-28 15:36:02 <BlueMatt> much more on win32 iirc
2491 2011-06-28 15:36:26 octarine has left ()
2492 2011-06-28 15:36:26 <ius> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ius ius 31M Jun 28 15:19 bitcoin
2493 2011-06-28 15:36:28 <gmaxwell> Really we mostly only need symbols for the core functions. E.g. main.cpp/net.cpp would do a lot.
2494 2011-06-28 15:36:28 <UukGoblin> wx static link ;-]
2495 2011-06-28 15:37:32 <ius> ah might be it
2496 2011-06-28 15:37:37 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2497 2011-06-28 15:37:44 <gmaxwell> This is especially important for bitcoin because you can't generally just ask someone to give you all their data so you can reproduce an issue. :)
2498 2011-06-28 15:37:54 <BlueMatt> whats the release size?
2499 2011-06-28 15:38:00 eskeln has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2500 2011-06-28 15:38:22 <ius> Stripped down to 1.5M for me (non-static)
2501 2011-06-28 15:38:23 <gmaxwell> about 9.2MB for the gui pinary.
2502 2011-06-28 15:38:33 <gmaxwell> 3.7MB for bitcoind.
2503 2011-06-28 15:38:55 <Ramen> can we get a pgp on wallet on the next release?
2504 2011-06-28 15:39:09 <gmaxwell> Ramen: pgp on wallet?
2505 2011-06-28 15:39:21 <BlueMatt> Ramen: why would you do asym crypto on the wallet?
2506 2011-06-28 15:39:40 <BlueMatt> there are advantages, but for 99% of users, its not the best solution
2507 2011-06-28 15:39:50 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well I use asym crypto for my backups: so the machine doing the backup doesn't have the key to decrypt it.
2508 2011-06-28 15:40:07 <Ramen> I don't want to get robbed  XD
2509 2011-06-28 15:40:10 <nanotube> i gpg encrypt my backups too
2510 2011-06-28 15:40:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, thats a potential usage, but use that for your wallet?
2511 2011-06-28 15:40:38 <BlueMatt> for backups where you dont want the server with the key, its great, but that doesnt really work for bitcoin...
2512 2011-06-28 15:40:49 <nanotube> BlueMatt: dunno what hsocketmax is, but you really think putting a check on hsocketmax can cause a segfault?
2513 2011-06-28 15:41:09 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2514 2011-06-28 15:41:11 <gmaxwell> speaking of backups... er, I think we should still be encouraging users to encrypt their wallet backups. For one, it's needed for privacy, but also— I'm pretty sure that malicious changes to the file could be used to make bitcoin misbehave.
2515 2011-06-28 15:41:26 <BlueMatt> nanotube: I think something later in that function segfaults because of that change, but frankly I have no idea, I just said that because that is the only net code change I know of
2516 2011-06-28 15:41:39 <nanotube> ah heh
2517 2011-06-28 15:41:39 <yorick> upb: http://pastie.org/private/2dkdlbz8z0lm7qgk78eypa I compressed it a bit :)
2518 2011-06-28 15:41:41 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2519 2011-06-28 15:41:53 <lfm> those unstripped binaries seem to compress quite well anyway
2520 2011-06-28 15:42:04 seventoes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2521 2011-06-28 15:42:21 <gmaxwell> lfm: 100mbyte binary is offensive though, even if it does compress well.
2522 2011-06-28 15:42:25 <BlueMatt> lfm: yea, it has a lot of ascii so it would
2523 2011-06-28 15:42:37 red_dawn_ has quit (Quit: later dawgs)
2524 2011-06-28 15:42:37 <gmaxwell> Especially for a 20kloc program!
2525 2011-06-28 15:43:28 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2526 2011-06-28 15:43:48 <Ramen> well ok... but can we get some kind of encryption on the wallet?
2527 2011-06-28 15:43:59 <BlueMatt> Ramen: its already done
2528 2011-06-28 15:44:45 <lfm> ya well goes from 29mb to 2.6mb  I spoze
2529 2011-06-28 15:45:15 <Ramen> oh... wait how come i'm reading stuff saying ppl have trojans stealing wallet files...
2530 2011-06-28 15:45:17 <lfm> ramen go ahead encrypt it all you want
2531 2011-06-28 15:45:26 d1234 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2532 2011-06-28 15:45:30 <BlueMatt> Ramen: its done as in will be in next release, not in 0.3.23
2533 2011-06-28 15:45:38 <Ramen> oh
2534 2011-06-28 15:45:47 <Ramen> ok ty
2535 2011-06-28 15:46:00 <gmaxwell> Ramen: also, encryption doesn't really stop trojans. They just have to be a bit smarter.
2536 2011-06-28 15:46:34 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2537 2011-06-28 15:46:34 <ius> All samples I've seen so far (~3) were written in Delphi/AutoIt. Generalizing, I think it should help ;)
2538 2011-06-28 15:46:42 <Ramen> yeah... I don't see it as stopping it... more of a deterrent
2539 2011-06-28 15:46:55 <gmaxwell> (They have to wait until you unlock it, and then pull the keys out of memory before releasing their soldiers)
2540 2011-06-28 15:47:12 CheapScotsman has joined
2541 2011-06-28 15:47:16 <nanotube> gmaxwell: or even better... keylog your passphrase... then copy the encrypted wallet over and unlock at leisure
2542 2011-06-28 15:47:28 <nanotube> gmaxwell: who needs to deal with pulling crap out of memory, when you have a trojan :)
2543 2011-06-28 15:47:47 <gmaxwell> It's not that much of a deterrent. Yes, it will slow the _first_ trojan down, but then they will release their code and everyone will do it. And there are plenty of trojans that keylog already.
2544 2011-06-28 15:48:16 <gmaxwell> The encryption is good, but it's mostly good for things other than trojans.
2545 2011-06-28 15:48:24 <ius> Get me that cheap ECDSA-able smartcard ;(
2546 2011-06-28 15:48:31 <lfm> better to not get the virus
2547 2011-06-28 15:48:51 <iz> you can do ecdsa on javasmartcards, i think
2548 2011-06-28 15:49:04 <ius> Yeah, Java card was the first thing that sprung to mind
2549 2011-06-28 15:49:24 <ius> But they don't appear to be 'affordable' if you only want a handful
2550 2011-06-28 15:49:28 <iz> yeah :/
2551 2011-06-28 15:49:50 <gmaxwell> For now the better thing to do would be to find some old model cheap PDA or smartphone which is widely available and then creat a special secure wallet software load for it.
2552 2011-06-28 15:49:55 cdecker_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2553 2011-06-28 15:50:05 <ius> Display++
2554 2011-06-28 15:50:21 <iz> USBtiny++ with ecdsa in AVR code
2555 2011-06-28 15:50:38 <ius> Unfortunately noone has come up with an off-the-shelf uC-and-a-display-on-a-stick it seems
2556 2011-06-28 15:51:17 <gmaxwell> http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Learning/SerialLCD
2557 2011-06-28 15:51:38 <gmaxwell> too bad the display they are using is rather expensive.
2558 2011-06-28 15:52:05 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2559 2011-06-28 15:52:12 Akiron has left ()
2560 2011-06-28 15:52:40 <ius> There's been plenty of oldschool USB MP3 players which had a display and had the stick form-factor. That would be ideal.
2561 2011-06-28 15:53:22 CheapScotsman has joined
2562 2011-06-28 15:53:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: think z80 is enough? because there's an assload of nokia s40 phones available in trash piles everywhere ;p
2563 2011-06-28 15:54:10 <gmaxwell> ius: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaClip
2564 2011-06-28 15:54:11 cdecker_ has joined
2565 2011-06-28 15:54:21 Pinion has joined
2566 2011-06-28 15:55:18 <gmaxwell> Actually the sansaclip would be a pretty great device for it.
2567 2011-06-28 15:55:20 <ius> Yeah, something like that is your best bet for a proof-of-concept
2568 2011-06-28 15:55:38 <gmaxwell> it has a screen and buttons, and an open source replacement operating system.
2569 2011-06-28 15:55:51 <gmaxwell> and they are about $40 new.
2570 2011-06-28 15:56:42 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2571 2011-06-28 15:56:47 traviscj has joined
2572 2011-06-28 15:57:22 <gmaxwell> for a real product you'd want something with tamper resistant hardware and such...
2573 2011-06-28 15:57:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: where's a picture of one of those?
2574 2011-06-28 15:57:44 <ius> Alternatively, an Android application would come close too..
2575 2011-06-28 15:58:00 <gmaxwell> http://cdn.ubergizmo.com/photos/2009/8/sandisk-sansa-clip-plus-468.JPG
2576 2011-06-28 15:58:13 Niedar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2577 2011-06-28 15:58:19 <gmaxwell> ius: android app is going to get owned up just like your desktop. :-/
2578 2011-06-28 15:58:20 <ius> Still a few orders of magnitude harder to compromise than just the wallet+passphrase
2579 2011-06-28 15:58:37 Niedar has joined
2580 2011-06-28 15:58:37 <jrmithdobbs> not much entropy for passphrase there without adding a OSK ui :(
2581 2011-06-28 15:58:47 <ius> Yes of course, but it's _alot_ harder already - excluding targeted attacks
2582 2011-06-28 15:58:59 <gmaxwell> Better picture: http://the-gadgeteer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/sansa-clip-8.jpg
2583 2011-06-28 15:59:02 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
2584 2011-06-28 15:59:05 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, you'd need to add an OSK.
2585 2011-06-28 15:59:20 <ius> Since 99% of the trojans would be try-and-grab-whatever-wallet
2586 2011-06-28 15:59:24 <jrmithdobbs> and an OSK is gonna be hard to use with those inputs
2587 2011-06-28 15:59:28 <jrmithdobbs> but for POC it'd work
2588 2011-06-28 15:59:35 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: numeric pin.. I guess.
2589 2011-06-28 15:59:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm bitchy/picky about uis ;p
2590 2011-06-28 15:59:52 tandy80 has joined
2591 2011-06-28 15:59:59 <gmaxwell> One thing that would be nice is a device with a pretty good keypad so that you can make an encrypted backup of it onto the computer.
2592 2011-06-28 16:00:04 <b4epoche> just use a button sequence for password
2593 2011-06-28 16:00:16 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: nowhere near enough entropy
2594 2011-06-28 16:00:37 Diablo-D3 has joined
2595 2011-06-28 16:00:49 <gmaxwell> well you could ender a sequence of 128 lefts and rights... but no one will remember that! :)
2596 2011-06-28 16:00:51 <ius> If you care about the device being physically secure, you may as well completely design a custom dongle, imo
2597 2011-06-28 16:01:08 <b4epoche> does it recognize multi-button presses…  still probably not enough combos
2598 2011-06-28 16:01:13 <jrmithdobbs> physically secure is hard
2599 2011-06-28 16:01:16 B0g4r7 has joined
2600 2011-06-28 16:01:25 <jrmithdobbs> but should be strived for imho
2601 2011-06-28 16:01:37 <gmaxwell> ius: there is a big gap between "physically secure" and "can't get owned by bitcoinminingprofitmonitor++"
2602 2011-06-28 16:01:38 <ius> Yeah, and really the 0.0001% scenario
2603 2011-06-28 16:01:39 Titeuf_87 has joined
2604 2011-06-28 16:01:55 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  there's up/down too ;-)  only 64 l/r/u/d
2605 2011-06-28 16:02:12 <ius> gmaxwell: Well, if your pc gets owned you should be safe with a dongle, regardless of whether it requires a PIN
2606 2011-06-28 16:02:28 * b4epoche wonders what the status of the ipod nano 'jailbreak' is
2607 2011-06-28 16:02:37 <gmaxwell> ius: Guess you missed this line?
2608 2011-06-28 16:02:38 <gmaxwell> 08:58 < gmaxwell> One thing that would be nice is a device with a pretty good keypad so that you can make an encrypted backup of it onto the computer.
2609 2011-06-28 16:02:42 <ius> Nevertheless, it should be pretty easy to make a breakdown of attacker profiles vs. countermeasures
2610 2011-06-28 16:03:52 <ius> gmaxwell: Hmmyeah, but I'd consider that for the maximum-security profile ;)
2611 2011-06-28 16:03:53 <gmaxwell> ius: if android wallets were common, android related bitcoin apps would come with trojans. There are already android apps for mining monitoring, and there are already trojaned mining programs. Together they fight crime? e..
2612 2011-06-28 16:04:45 <ius> gmaxwell: Mmf well, imo. the user should be cautious enough not to use his phone for anything else bitcoin related then.
2613 2011-06-28 16:04:52 <gmaxwell> ius: once problem with dongles in general is that loss is a greater risk for most users than theft. So you need to be careful not to increase your lost risk to prevent the 1% theft attacks.
2614 2011-06-28 16:05:02 <ius> Either that, or pickup the medium security sansa clip dongle ;)
2615 2011-06-28 16:05:11 <gmaxwell> So I'm going to nee a whole seperate android device for my wallet? .. right. Time for the sansaclip. :)
2616 2011-06-28 16:05:29 agricocb has joined
2617 2011-06-28 16:05:59 * b4epoche might have just found a use for his iPod 1G
2618 2011-06-28 16:06:04 <ius> gmaxwell: No you don't, just keep the mining crap of untrusted sources off, or get the dongle  ;)
2619 2011-06-28 16:06:23 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2620 2011-06-28 16:06:39 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
2621 2011-06-28 16:06:43 <ius> Also, the mining monitor shouldn't be considered mainstream - bitcoind end users shouldn't have a need for such sw.
2622 2011-06-28 16:06:58 <dongs> did someone say dongle
2623 2011-06-28 16:06:59 <gmaxwell> in any case... before we can have dongles, there needs to be a bunch of bitcoin code for supporting one.
2624 2011-06-28 16:07:10 <ius> And if they end up installing a payment client onto their device, well, there goes your 2nd factor anyway
2625 2011-06-28 16:07:28 <gmaxwell> ius: there are mtgox ticker apps too.
2626 2011-06-28 16:07:28 <nanotube> gmaxwell: i bought an asus eee 701 for ~ $100, using it as an airgapped secure wallet. cheap, functional, easy, doesn't require any special fancy tricks.
2627 2011-06-28 16:07:28 <ius> Yeah, a common interface of some sorts
2628 2011-06-28 16:07:52 <nanotube> ius: bitcoin attacks are already targeted.
2629 2011-06-28 16:08:21 <ius> gmaxwell: True - but still, if the bitcoin economy was self-sustainable not everyone has to trade on mtgox
2630 2011-06-28 16:08:33 <ius> Besides, mtgox will leak your credentials anyhow *grin*
2631 2011-06-28 16:08:34 <gmaxwell> nanotube: still needs some kind of interface to shuttle txn across for signing.
2632 2011-06-28 16:08:39 slush has joined
2633 2011-06-28 16:08:43 <b4epoche> damn, it must be at home somewhere…  would a pure numeric password be entropic enough?
2634 2011-06-28 16:08:54 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, i'm waiting on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/271
2635 2011-06-28 16:09:01 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2636 2011-06-28 16:09:09 <nanotube> gmaxwell: for now, i haven't had the need to spend anything out of that wallet yet :)
2637 2011-06-28 16:09:33 <ius> nanotube: Yes, sure, but that's 1% - the other 99% is nontargeted and still a problem which should be solved.. making it as easy as possible for the end user
2638 2011-06-28 16:09:34 Gekz has joined
2639 2011-06-28 16:09:34 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
2640 2011-06-28 16:09:34 Gekz has joined
2641 2011-06-28 16:09:50 <gmaxwell> Your comment there is good. I don't want the blockchain on the airgapped wallet.
2642 2011-06-28 16:09:54 sabalaba has joined
2643 2011-06-28 16:10:45 <gmaxwell> I want the main client to form the txn, track my balances.. but when it needs a signature it can output it (somehow?) and then the airgap device can display the transaction to you, and sign it.
2644 2011-06-28 16:11:18 <ius> Anyway, different attack scenarios & different solutions (offering security at a ease-to-use/investment tradeoff)
2645 2011-06-28 16:11:28 Clipse has joined
2646 2011-06-28 16:11:42 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2647 2011-06-28 16:11:45 brunner has joined
2648 2011-06-28 16:14:15 dr_win has joined
2649 2011-06-28 16:14:39 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
2650 2011-06-28 16:16:36 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2651 2011-06-28 16:19:04 pklaus has joined
2652 2011-06-28 16:19:40 sytse_ has joined
2653 2011-06-28 16:19:40 sytse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2654 2011-06-28 16:19:41 <sacarlson> I've just created a new branch of bitcoin with multi currency and escrow now called MultiCoin at: https://sacarlson@github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin.git  I've also released a new version of zamgo's bitcoin-webskin with added support for sendescrow and redeemescrow that supports Multicoin's escrow features
2655 2011-06-28 16:20:13 sytse_ is now known as sytse
2656 2011-06-28 16:21:05 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: how about a working link? :)
2657 2011-06-28 16:21:05 <sacarlson> bitcoin-webskin release is at: https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin-webskin
2658 2011-06-28 16:21:07 <lfm> gmaxwell: would be tricky to display the txn to you and sign it cuz you could not verify the fees this way. it could give away your whole account in fees and you wouldnt know
2659 2011-06-28 16:21:30 <gmaxwell> lfm: oh crap.
2660 2011-06-28 16:21:35 AgoristRadio has joined
2661 2011-06-28 16:21:56 <gmaxwell> lfm: well, you can copy the inputs over. They are referenced by hash so it shouldn't be able to lie.
2662 2011-06-28 16:21:59 <gmaxwell> Just more data.
2663 2011-06-28 16:22:24 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: thank you for noteing that sorry https://github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin
2664 2011-06-28 16:22:33 Glasswalker has joined
2665 2011-06-28 16:22:57 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2666 2011-06-28 16:23:50 <lfm> if the input were preloaded from the "server" in a verifiable manner, it oculd work I think
2667 2011-06-28 16:24:49 <lfm> any newly received funds couldnt be spent till you "sync" up with the server again
2668 2011-06-28 16:24:54 <gmaxwell> You'd just package up the inputs you're planning on using with the transaction. The secure client will check the input hashes, and the inputs to calculate the fee too.
2669 2011-06-28 16:25:49 <unclemantis> when i sent btc. Is there a way to send from one account and deduct the fees from a different account?
2670 2011-06-28 16:26:06 <lfm> unclemantis: not really
2671 2011-06-28 16:26:13 <gmaxwell> Then there is no sync. You perform a transaction, the unsecure wallet writes a big base-64 blob and displays the transactions 'pending signature' (also locking the inputs).  You get the signature however you want, then load it in, and the txn becomes normal again.
2672 2011-06-28 16:26:25 <unclemantis> so i pretty much need to move the fee from one account to the other and then initiate the transfer
2673 2011-06-28 16:26:31 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: No.
2674 2011-06-28 16:26:41 <gmaxwell> Just send it. The account will display negative.
2675 2011-06-28 16:26:44 <gmaxwell> Thats fine.
2676 2011-06-28 16:27:02 <unclemantis> what?
2677 2011-06-28 16:27:09 <unclemantis> so the system writes kinda like an IOU?
2678 2011-06-28 16:27:14 <lfm> do a separate correction move of the fee if you have to
2679 2011-06-28 16:27:35 <unclemantis> everything needs to be balanced so i will do what lfm suggests
2680 2011-06-28 16:27:43 <gmaxwell> ....
2681 2011-06-28 16:27:44 <gmaxwell> No.
2682 2011-06-28 16:27:45 <gmaxwell> jesus.
2683 2011-06-28 16:28:00 <unclemantis> fine gmaxwell explain
2684 2011-06-28 16:28:03 <gmaxwell> you are failing to understand accounts. Not your failt, its confusing.
2685 2011-06-28 16:28:22 <unclemantis> thank you for retracting that it is implied that i am a retard :P
2686 2011-06-28 16:28:22 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2687 2011-06-28 16:28:52 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2688 2011-06-28 16:29:00 aristidesfl has joined
2689 2011-06-28 16:29:35 <gmaxwell> Imagine you have a wallet stuffed with cash, and a checkbook sitting next to it.  You keep track of varrious expenses in your checkbook (food, gas, rent, etc), and spend the cash. You're free to drive any of the accounts negative because it's just your personal accounting the rest of the world doesn't care about your recordkeeping.
2690 2011-06-28 16:29:47 CheapScotsman has joined
2691 2011-06-28 16:29:47 <gmaxwell> Thats how bitcoin accounts work.
2692 2011-06-28 16:29:56 <unclemantis> ok
2693 2011-06-28 16:29:59 <gmaxwell> So if your wallet has funds, you can send from any account you want.
2694 2011-06-28 16:30:06 <lfm> you can then fix up the negative if you want some other account to pay it off with a -> move <fromaccount> <toaccount> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment]
2695 2011-06-28 16:30:17 d4de has joined
2696 2011-06-28 16:30:40 <gmaxwell> Which isn't a bitcoin send, it's just moving numbers around in the checkbook.
2697 2011-06-28 16:30:46 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya I was surprized to see negative number in my accounts thanks for that clearification
2698 2011-06-28 16:31:00 CheapScotsman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2699 2011-06-28 16:31:18 <gmaxwell> I like accounts, ... but everyone assumes they are multiple wallets. It's pretty confusing. :)
2700 2011-06-28 16:31:23 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I guess it only gets bad when they all add up to a negitive
2701 2011-06-28 16:31:33 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: yea, that shouldn't be possible! :)
2702 2011-06-28 16:31:40 <unclemantis> so say my '' account has 20 and my unclemantis account has .98. My books before fees told me that I should have 1.00 in unclemantis. So if I send btc from unclemantis to someone else it will go through and I should be down to 0.00 and '' is now at 19.0005 or something?
2703 2011-06-28 16:32:19 <unclemantis> gmaxwell I am using accounts as wallets for a game i am building. Requires buying in and cashing out and converting to tokens, etc...
2704 2011-06-28 16:32:30 CheapScotsman has joined
2705 2011-06-28 16:32:56 <gmaxwell> Yea, thats what they're for pretty much.
2706 2011-06-28 16:33:05 <midnightmagic> Art left. :(
2707 2011-06-28 16:33:07 <sacarlson> unclemantis: I keep track of all that in mysql
2708 2011-06-28 16:33:10 <midnightmagic> where is Art?
2709 2011-06-28 16:33:19 Incitatus has joined
2710 2011-06-28 16:33:25 <unclemantis> so when my accounting system tells me that unclemantis account has 10,000 tokens that are equal to 10 btc, it takes 10 btc and moves it from '' to unclemantis and then it sends 10 from unclemantis to an address
2711 2011-06-28 16:33:46 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: if it spends more than it has it will end up showing a negative. but thats okay, since you have funds elsewhere.
2712 2011-06-28 16:33:54 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: why bother with the extra step?
2713 2011-06-28 16:34:11 <gmaxwell> What you're describing could just be done with a single account.
2714 2011-06-28 16:34:20 kW_ has joined
2715 2011-06-28 16:34:23 <unclemantis> as long as I keep track of all this in mysql it really doesn't matter what the balance is as long as i keep track of the transactions
2716 2011-06-28 16:34:27 erus` has joined
2717 2011-06-28 16:34:57 <unclemantis> well each account has one or more deposit addresses
2718 2011-06-28 16:35:22 <unclemantis> and i am only keeping track of ONE of them in mysql but i am allowing all the others to stay active
2719 2011-06-28 16:35:30 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: Ideally should be generating new addresses at deposit time in any case.
2720 2011-06-28 16:35:33 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I us multi account to desiguish who was sent money but all out going money comes from the central mysql accounted money and his recieved money is auto moved to the "bank"
2721 2011-06-28 16:35:40 <dongs> does mysql support transactions yet
2722 2011-06-28 16:35:56 <dinox> aww, getting "socket send flood control disconnect" from bitcoind all the time when trying to dl block chain with bitcoinj
2723 2011-06-28 16:36:00 <dongs> since yawl are php/mysql experts
2724 2011-06-28 16:36:12 <unclemantis> either way gmaxwell I want to keep an audit trail in both mysql and bitcoing listtransactions
2725 2011-06-28 16:36:16 <gmaxwell> dinox: you'll get that with regular bitcoin clients too.
2726 2011-06-28 16:36:22 <unclemantis> yawl?
2727 2011-06-28 16:36:35 <dinox> gmaxwell: Do you know how to get rid of it?
2728 2011-06-28 16:36:37 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: okay, well there you go. the balances don't matter in bitcoin listtransactions.
2729 2011-06-28 16:36:47 <sacarlson> dongs: well I guess we don't have a released lib to do it yet but we can
2730 2011-06-28 16:37:00 <gmaxwell> dinox: fix the flood control code to not get triggered by completely normal blockchain syncs?
2731 2011-06-28 16:37:06 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2732 2011-06-28 16:37:13 <dongs> to do what? im just asking if mysql supports transactions lawl. I remember like 8 years ago it didnt.
2733 2011-06-28 16:37:17 <dongs> or stored procedures.
2734 2011-06-28 16:37:25 Kothar is now known as kon
2735 2011-06-28 16:37:55 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2736 2011-06-28 16:37:57 <dinox> gmaxwell: Umm, yeah, just wondered if there was anyone more who had problems with this and wrote a patch for it
2737 2011-06-28 16:38:02 <gmaxwell> dongs: it's supported transactions for a fairly long time now...
2738 2011-06-28 16:38:03 CheapScotsman has joined
2739 2011-06-28 16:38:13 * unclemantis giggles
2740 2011-06-28 16:38:14 <unclemantis> dong
2741 2011-06-28 16:38:18 * unclemantis giggles
2742 2011-06-28 16:38:29 <dongs> k
2743 2011-06-28 16:38:49 <nanotube> ius: yes it can't hurt :)
2744 2011-06-28 16:38:59 <gmaxwell> dinox: everyone has the problem— its almost certantly one reason why initial blockchain sync takes so long, but I'm not aware of a preexisting fix.
2745 2011-06-28 16:39:11 <nanotube> gmaxwell: see my response to your comment on issue 271. :)
2746 2011-06-28 16:39:29 Incitatus has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2747 2011-06-28 16:39:32 kluge has joined
2748 2011-06-28 16:39:42 <sacarlson> dongs you can look at the examples in intersango that does mysql transactions from bitcoind http://gitorious.org/intersango/
2749 2011-06-28 16:40:00 Incitatus has joined
2750 2011-06-28 16:40:10 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, ++
2751 2011-06-28 16:40:10 <phantomcircuit> ;)
2752 2011-06-28 16:42:01 cdecker_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2753 2011-06-28 16:42:13 <dongs> looks liek gitourois.org runs lunix
2754 2011-06-28 16:42:17 <dongs> and doesnt set mss properly
2755 2011-06-28 16:42:23 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2756 2011-06-28 16:42:34 cdecker_ has joined
2757 2011-06-28 16:42:36 <dongs> so initial connection takes like 10 minutes.
2758 2011-06-28 16:42:37 <dongs> go opensores.
2759 2011-06-28 16:42:46 <sacarlson> dongs: so run linux like 99% of every one on web servers does then
2760 2011-06-28 16:43:10 CheapScotsman has joined
2761 2011-06-28 16:43:12 N0va` has joined
2762 2011-06-28 16:43:16 <dongs> sorry my webservers run IIS
2763 2011-06-28 16:43:28 <sacarlson> dongs: try virtualbox
2764 2011-06-28 16:43:30 <dongs> because i'm, not going to be recompiling a bunch of shit to host files > 2gb
2765 2011-06-28 16:43:34 <dongs> in 2011.
2766 2011-06-28 16:43:38 N0va` has left ()
2767 2011-06-28 16:43:40 <dongs> because that's just fucking ridiculous.
2768 2011-06-28 16:43:46 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2769 2011-06-28 16:43:48 <BlueMatt> IIS... O_O
2770 2011-06-28 16:44:23 <BlueMatt> since when do you have to recompile linux to host files > 2gb?
2771 2011-06-28 16:44:29 cdecker_ has quit (Client Quit)
2772 2011-06-28 16:44:31 <dongs> since 1996
2773 2011-06-28 16:44:56 <BlueMatt> Ive put plenty of >2gb files up on http servers and downloaded them across my lan
2774 2011-06-28 16:44:56 cdecker_ has joined
2775 2011-06-28 16:45:06 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2776 2011-06-28 16:45:06 <dongs> http://www.google.com/search?q=apache+2gb+file+size+limit
2777 2011-06-28 16:45:07 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2778 2011-06-28 16:45:07 <BlueMatt> not sure what shitty webserver you are thinking about
2779 2011-06-28 16:45:14 <BlueMatt> oh...apache...
2780 2011-06-28 16:45:18 <dongs> the only shitty one that matters, apparently.
2781 2011-06-28 16:45:19 <sacarlson> dongs: guess what linux now supports bigger files since 1996
2782 2011-06-28 16:45:48 <dongs> BlueMatt: so i can spend a day figuring out what other opensores http server works, or just use IIS and get the job done
2783 2011-06-28 16:45:57 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2784 2011-06-28 16:45:58 <dongs> so, i choose the latter.
2785 2011-06-28 16:46:04 <BlueMatt> dongs: also, that was changed in 2.2 apparently...which is really old
2786 2011-06-28 16:46:14 <gmaxwell> Apache handles >2gb files fine.
2787 2011-06-28 16:46:19 <dongs> BlueMatt: no idea, stopped caring years ago
2788 2011-06-28 16:46:20 <BlueMatt> iis gets the job done????wtf
2789 2011-06-28 16:46:23 CrazyEddy has joined
2790 2011-06-28 16:46:27 <dongs> IIS supported large files since  day 1.
2791 2011-06-28 16:46:34 <gmaxwell> okay woah. Stop everyone.
2792 2011-06-28 16:46:38 <BlueMatt> IIS supports getting hacked since day 1
2793 2011-06-28 16:46:51 <gmaxwell> Note: You are arguing with someone named "dongs" who is promoting IIS.  YHBT.
2794 2011-06-28 16:47:16 <dongs> BlueMatt: getting hacked by what.
2795 2011-06-28 16:47:19 Soak has joined
2796 2011-06-28 16:47:46 <sacarlson> dongs: that's article was  back in 2008 and even then they had a fix for it they guy was running code from like 2001
2797 2011-06-28 16:48:29 Gonzago has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2798 2011-06-28 16:48:54 skeledrew has joined
2799 2011-06-28 16:48:57 aristidesfl has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2800 2011-06-28 16:49:33 <dongs> sacarlson: i had files > 2gb way before 2008. and I've been running IIS since before that.
2801 2011-06-28 16:49:44 <dongs> why the fuck would I change?
2802 2011-06-28 16:49:58 Mononofu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2803 2011-06-28 16:50:22 <sacarlson> dongs: well as now you can't run something else and we can do that so virtualbox linux and try it
2804 2011-06-28 16:50:38 <b4epoche> and he's running it on NT...
2805 2011-06-28 16:50:45 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2806 2011-06-28 16:50:51 <vigilyn> nt4 ftw
2807 2011-06-28 16:51:01 <BlueMatt> windows 3.1 ftw
2808 2011-06-28 16:51:14 Incitatus has joined
2809 2011-06-28 16:51:36 <b4epoche> no reason to change /until/ you get hacked.
2810 2011-06-28 16:51:39 <dongs> NT4 was lightyears ahead of lunix in features and usability
2811 2011-06-28 16:51:50 <UukGoblin> lol
2812 2011-06-28 16:51:52 <dongs> and most importantly, it worked.
2813 2011-06-28 16:52:00 <dongs> which you cant say about lunix even in 2011.
2814 2011-06-28 16:52:05 <dongs> lol all you want, but s ome people just want to get shit done
2815 2011-06-28 16:52:13 <sacarlson> dongs: hay I never change until I have to also, I always get the long term supported stuf but at some point you have to move on
2816 2011-06-28 16:52:13 <UukGoblin> he sounds like this...
2817 2011-06-28 16:52:19 aristidesfl has joined
2818 2011-06-28 16:52:21 <dongs> not spend a day watching miles of shit scroll by a text console or dick around seting this up for a week
2819 2011-06-28 16:52:32 <BlueMatt> windows 3.1 still has better usability than windows 7
2820 2011-06-28 16:52:34 * b4epoche just wants to get shit done so gave up on Windows and Unix long ago
2821 2011-06-28 16:52:43 <dongs> BlueMatt: obviosuly you havent actually used win7.
2822 2011-06-28 16:53:03 <dongs> b4epoche: so you got steve's shriveing cock up your ass? Yeah, you're getting lots done.
2823 2011-06-28 16:53:06 <BlueMatt> dongs: no way, I only talk about things I know about
2824 2011-06-28 16:53:09 <vigilyn>  i received a support call from a hotel still running a 40gb raided fileserver on nt4
2825 2011-06-28 16:53:12 <UukGoblin> jargon!
2826 2011-06-28 16:53:34 * b4epoche thinks it's time to pull the /ignore out
2827 2011-06-28 16:53:42 <dongs> b4epoche: or are you running BeOS
2828 2011-06-28 16:53:57 Gekz has joined
2829 2011-06-28 16:53:57 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
2830 2011-06-28 16:53:57 Gekz has joined
2831 2011-06-28 16:54:07 <b4epoche> l212168.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp
2832 2011-06-28 16:54:09 <b4epoche>  l212168.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp
2833 2011-06-28 16:54:14 karnac has joined
2834 2011-06-28 16:54:19 <sacarlson> wow cool ignore I never tried it and it works
2835 2011-06-28 16:54:20 <UukGoblin> well not the same mask as jargon
2836 2011-06-28 16:54:23 <b4epoche> ppp too?
2837 2011-06-28 16:54:28 <UukGoblin> and not exactly the same type of troll, have to say
2838 2011-06-28 16:54:37 <vigilyn> with a name like dongs, it's no wonder that cocks would eventually be brought up
2839 2011-06-28 16:55:27 <dongs> true.
2840 2011-06-28 16:55:44 <dongs>  * b4epoche just wants to get shit done so gave up on Windows and Unix long ago
2841 2011-06-28 16:55:47 <dongs> I'm curious what this was all about
2842 2011-06-28 16:56:00 <dongs> I assumed it was MacOS but maybe he's a closet Be  fan/
2843 2011-06-28 16:56:08 <dongs> or AmigaOS.
2844 2011-06-28 16:56:15 <dongs> or some other faggot shit nobody actually gives a fuck about.
2845 2011-06-28 16:56:19 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2846 2011-06-28 16:56:56 <UukGoblin> dongs, that's entirely off-topic, and you're on the verge of being offensive, so stfu
2847 2011-06-28 16:57:01 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2848 2011-06-28 16:57:07 sacredchao has joined
2849 2011-06-28 16:57:08 <b4epoche> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tktNZpUTMoQ
2850 2011-06-28 16:57:10 <dongs> I just wanna know what he meant
2851 2011-06-28 16:57:19 <cdecker_> ;;gpg auth cdecker
2852 2011-06-28 16:57:20 <gribble> Request successful for user cdecker, hostmask cdecker_!~cdecker@77-58-144-68.dclient.hispeed.ch. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:e5eefcc4da4a829048892174ad8542259f00c8b3db2b3807e87a4258
2853 2011-06-28 16:58:17 Incitatus has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2854 2011-06-28 16:58:28 dbasch has joined
2855 2011-06-28 16:58:36 cdecker has quit (Quit: cdecker)
2856 2011-06-28 16:58:44 Incitatus has joined
2857 2011-06-28 16:58:48 cdecker_ is now known as cdecker
2858 2011-06-28 16:58:53 <b4epoche> Sixteen Candles ftw!
2859 2011-06-28 16:59:43 germanMNY has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2860 2011-06-28 16:59:54 freakazoid has joined
2861 2011-06-28 17:00:27 nhodges has joined
2862 2011-06-28 17:01:39 IncitatusOnWater has joined
2863 2011-06-28 17:01:51 <BlueMatt> lol dongs is running apache...
2864 2011-06-28 17:02:28 Clipse has joined
2865 2011-06-28 17:02:48 <BlueMatt> dongs is running Apache/2.2.13 (Unix) DAV/2 PHP/5.2.10 with PHP/5.2.10
2866 2011-06-28 17:03:20 <b4epoche> even up-to-date
2867 2011-06-28 17:03:44 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2868 2011-06-28 17:04:05 <BlueMatt> not its not, latest is 2.2.19
2869 2011-06-28 17:04:12 <b4epoche> what is the bitcoin client license?  and what does that license allow?
2870 2011-06-28 17:04:21 <BlueMatt> mit, pretty much anything
2871 2011-06-28 17:04:23 <b4epoche> well reasonably up-to-date
2872 2011-06-28 17:04:41 <BlueMatt> as long as you keep the copyright satoshi/bitcoin developers/etc in there, you can do pretty much whatever you want
2873 2011-06-28 17:04:51 <BlueMatt> its in COPYING
2874 2011-06-28 17:04:55 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2875 2011-06-28 17:04:58 <b4epoche> btw BlueMatt, rent Sixteen Candles
2876 2011-06-28 17:05:28 <b4epoche> 'in there'?  In the source?
2877 2011-06-28 17:05:32 anu has joined
2878 2011-06-28 17:05:37 <MrSam> The great thing about TCP jokes is that you always get them.
2879 2011-06-28 17:05:52 <b4epoche> what if I don't plan on releasing the source (to the GUI anyway)?
2880 2011-06-28 17:06:03 HopsNBarley has joined
2881 2011-06-28 17:06:13 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/COPYING
2882 2011-06-28 17:06:27 Mononofu has joined
2883 2011-06-28 17:06:33 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: then it needs to be in the ui somewhere
2884 2011-06-28 17:06:42 <BlueMatt> probably just put it in the about dialog
2885 2011-06-28 17:07:22 <b4epoche> yea, that's what I was thinking…  and why I asked
2886 2011-06-28 17:07:32 <BlueMatt> (also make sure to retain the original about dialog copyright notice which has stuff from openssl/cryptopp/json-spirit/etc
2887 2011-06-28 17:07:56 <b4epoche> yep...
2888 2011-06-28 17:09:26 XX01XX has quit (Quit: My god. It's full of 'tards.)
2889 2011-06-28 17:09:42 Ramen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2890 2011-06-28 17:11:10 amiller has joined
2891 2011-06-28 17:11:24 <x6763> this is odd...i'm working on my block/tx verification/indexing code and pulled the first 100 blocks out of my blk0001.dat file for some manual testing and found a block at height 50 with the block ID of dc3bfbd520eea8c4715303e046674935f4eaf536ebe873702110d32c2968cfe0 (not even close to reaching diff 1)...why did bitcoin put an obviously invalid block in there? (it's from version 0.3.19)
2892 2011-06-28 17:11:51 <nanotube> gmaxwell: responded to your post on 271. very clever! ++ points to you.
2893 2011-06-28 17:12:03 AStove has joined
2894 2011-06-28 17:12:17 AStove has quit (Client Quit)
2895 2011-06-28 17:12:49 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2896 2011-06-28 17:13:14 <phantomcircuit> x6763, that's a block?
2897 2011-06-28 17:13:45 <x6763> phantomcircuit: yeah, i'll pastebin the hex
2898 2011-06-28 17:14:28 <pklaus> So, I posted a new topic about my problems with Bitcoin7 exchange point in the forum: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23749.0
2899 2011-06-28 17:14:46 <x6763> phantomcircuit: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/422557/
2900 2011-06-28 17:14:49 <pklaus> unfortunately I am new to the forum so it has to be in the newbe section ;)
2901 2011-06-28 17:15:46 dbasch has joined
2902 2011-06-28 17:15:56 <UukGoblin> x6763, that's 215 bytes... that's hardly enough space for 1 transaction
2903 2011-06-28 17:16:15 <pklaus> Sorry, my message was supposed to go to the #bitcoin channel, not the -dev channel!
2904 2011-06-28 17:16:37 <UukGoblin> ah ok 215 bytes is actually enough for a block
2905 2011-06-28 17:17:00 dvide_ has joined
2906 2011-06-28 17:17:58 <x6763> UukGoblin: there's a full coingen transaction there
2907 2011-06-28 17:18:10 bobke_ has joined
2908 2011-06-28 17:18:32 <UukGoblin> yeah the coingen ones are smaller
2909 2011-06-28 17:18:37 dvide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2910 2011-06-28 17:18:37 bobke has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2911 2011-06-28 17:18:43 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
2912 2011-06-28 17:20:26 <luke-jr> ;;later tell theymos can Gim-EEE be put back to the Newbies section only? he's been trolling on the Eligius thread for a while now… :/
2913 2011-06-28 17:20:26 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2914 2011-06-28 17:20:40 <dinox> Finally able to send change back to senders address: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/t/Ah36CPUij9
2915 2011-06-28 17:20:44 <luke-jr> ;;later tell theymos and/or: can we have an Eligius subforum to declutter? :P
2916 2011-06-28 17:20:45 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2917 2011-06-28 17:21:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: we're moving to a better forum anyway
2918 2011-06-28 17:21:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: "we"?
2919 2011-06-28 17:21:21 <BlueMatt> bitcoin
2920 2011-06-28 17:21:23 <luke-jr> ie, competing with theymos, or?
2921 2011-06-28 17:21:27 <luke-jr> bitcoin isn't an entity
2922 2011-06-28 17:21:28 <x6763> makes me wonder how much space bitcoin is wasting in the blkNNNN.dat files with junk blocks...i haven't checked to see if it's indexed in blkindex.db yet
2923 2011-06-28 17:21:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ie removing any forums from *.bitcoin.org
2924 2011-06-28 17:22:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: k, my questions still stand :P
2925 2011-06-28 17:22:25 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: a general reorg is needed IMO
2926 2011-06-28 17:22:43 <luke-jr> forums per-software etc
2927 2011-06-28 17:22:55 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2928 2011-06-28 17:23:10 rcorreia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2929 2011-06-28 17:23:51 rcorreia has joined
2930 2011-06-28 17:23:57 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2931 2011-06-28 17:24:34 <Mqrius> I've been trying to generate priv/pub key pairs, and adding them to my wallet. It seemed to be working, however, when I send money to one of these, it doesn't appear back in my wallet. So either I didn't add it properly, or the keys/hashes are wrong. Can anyone check if these (example) keys and address are consistent with eachother? http://pastebin.com/D8twb9dn
2932 2011-06-28 17:26:35 nealmcb has joined
2933 2011-06-28 17:26:35 joepie91 has joined
2934 2011-06-28 17:26:46 flykoko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2935 2011-06-28 17:27:25 <lianj> Mqrius: your private key looks kinda long
2936 2011-06-28 17:27:37 datagutt has joined
2937 2011-06-28 17:28:09 <Mqrius> lianj: It's the way it's saved to the wallet. It's some constant string, then the key, then another constant string, then the public key
2938 2011-06-28 17:28:48 <lianj> ah ok..
2939 2011-06-28 17:29:06 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2940 2011-06-28 17:29:42 <Mqrius> pastebin with the private key separated out: http://pastebin.com/Xc5iYgME
2941 2011-06-28 17:30:12 <b4epoche> setting are stored in wallet.dat too?
2942 2011-06-28 17:30:54 meatsim has joined
2943 2011-06-28 17:31:37 germanMNY has joined
2944 2011-06-28 17:32:33 <Mqrius> Think they aren't. Saved addresses with names are, though.
2945 2011-06-28 17:32:33 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2946 2011-06-28 17:32:34 <b4epoche> seems like that isn't a good thing…  opinions?
2947 2011-06-28 17:32:39 v_y has joined
2948 2011-06-28 17:33:00 <v_y> where is gribble?
2949 2011-06-28 17:33:01 <b4epoche> 		walletdb.WriteSetting("fUseUPnP", fUseUPnP);
2950 2011-06-28 17:33:16 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2951 2011-06-28 17:33:31 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2952 2011-06-28 17:34:39 <BlueMatt> settings are in wallet.dat
2953 2011-06-28 17:34:41 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa, tcatm: I'm leaning towards enabling upnp by default, because apparently skype and other p2p software already does so
2954 2011-06-28 17:34:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: abso-fucking-lutely
2955 2011-06-28 17:35:41 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3's gone wild deleting all the threads on the forums
2956 2011-06-28 17:36:07 <Diablo-D3> I have not.
2957 2011-06-28 17:36:10 <luke-jr> :p
2958 2011-06-28 17:36:16 <Diablo-D3> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23760.0
2959 2011-06-28 17:36:18 <pirrr> What would be a 'safe' amount of confirmations before accepting a payment? 5?
2960 2011-06-28 17:36:32 <Diablo-D3> pirrr: a lot of people use 5.
2961 2011-06-28 17:37:06 RBecker has joined
2962 2011-06-28 17:37:25 <pirrr> Then I'll use that Diablo-D3 . Is 5 the value used in the GUI?
2963 2011-06-28 17:37:35 v_y has left ("Leaving")
2964 2011-06-28 17:37:41 <Diablo-D3> think so
2965 2011-06-28 17:37:46 RobinPKR has quit (Quit: RobinPKR)
2966 2011-06-28 17:38:30 <phantomcircuit> pirrr, no 6
2967 2011-06-28 17:38:49 dbasch has joined
2968 2011-06-28 17:39:50 erle- has joined
2969 2011-06-28 17:40:21 RobinPKR has joined
2970 2011-06-28 17:40:37 joepie91 has quit (2!~joepie91@s514735fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2971 2011-06-28 17:40:54 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
2972 2011-06-28 17:41:22 <pirrr> thanks phantomcircuit
2973 2011-06-28 17:41:28 joepie91 has joined
2974 2011-06-28 17:41:46 <edcba> a
2975 2011-06-28 17:42:28 <pirrr> I am looking at the API now. If I want my total balance (of all accounts) with 5+ confirmations, how can I do that?
2976 2011-06-28 17:42:31 <pirrr> Syntax: getbalance 	 [account] [minconf=1]
2977 2011-06-28 17:42:46 kish_ has joined
2978 2011-06-28 17:42:46 <pirrr> getbalance NULL 6 does not work
2979 2011-06-28 17:43:03 <phantomcircuit> getbalance "" 6 is for the default account
2980 2011-06-28 17:43:25 dbitcoin has joined
2981 2011-06-28 17:43:27 <pirrr> $ bitcoind getbalance
2982 2011-06-28 17:43:27 <pirrr> 15.00000000
2983 2011-06-28 17:43:29 <pirrr> $ bitcoind getbalance "" 5
2984 2011-06-28 17:43:29 <pirrr> 0.00000000
2985 2011-06-28 17:43:31 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Ive wanted that since I wrote upnp to begin with ;)
2986 2011-06-28 17:44:52 knotwork has joined
2987 2011-06-28 17:44:58 <pirrr> Is what I want not possible?
2988 2011-06-28 17:44:58 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: also, whats left for 0.4? Id say dont bother with autotoos, though I do want to implement and test devrandom's gitian downloader before release, but thats not a blocker
2989 2011-06-28 17:45:00 joepie91 has joined
2990 2011-06-28 17:45:14 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2991 2011-06-28 17:45:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: wallet crypto and sipa's wallet import/export are the big ticket items
2992 2011-06-28 17:45:45 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I don't mind pushing back autotools
2993 2011-06-28 17:45:59 <BlueMatt> oh didnt know import/export is 0.4
2994 2011-06-28 17:46:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: we need to get wallet crypto/import/export out ASAP
2995 2011-06-28 17:46:16 <pirrr> I got it. $ bitcoind getbalance "*" 5
2996 2011-06-28 17:46:28 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: wallet crypto is definitely priority #1 IMO, but wallet import/export is crucial for all sorts of other wallet security, like storing in a bank safety deposit box
2997 2011-06-28 17:46:35 Donald__ has joined
2998 2011-06-28 17:46:57 dbasch has joined
2999 2011-06-28 17:47:00 gruez has joined
3000 2011-06-28 17:47:01 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok, sounds good then, I just didnt know import/export is also there, Ill go test/ack that one then
3001 2011-06-28 17:47:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: much appreciated
3002 2011-06-28 17:47:16 <BlueMatt> and Id guess it needs rebased onto crypto
3003 2011-06-28 17:47:25 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
3004 2011-06-28 17:48:30 joepie91 has quit (2!~joepie91@s514735fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3005 2011-06-28 17:48:52 ar4s has joined
3006 2011-06-28 17:49:01 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3007 2011-06-28 17:49:08 NickelBot has joined
3008 2011-06-28 17:49:23 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
3009 2011-06-28 17:52:54 ar4s has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3010 2011-06-28 17:53:09 <x6763> Mqrius: i generated the same bitcoin address from that private key, so i'm thinking something else is wrong (or both your code and my code is wrong)
3011 2011-06-28 17:53:31 repl has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3012 2011-06-28 17:54:04 germanMNY has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4)
3013 2011-06-28 17:54:15 <Mqrius> x6763: okay... do you mean the full private key? Because then you would skip the link between the private and public key, since the address is made out of just the public key
3014 2011-06-28 17:54:40 <Mqrius> I'm not sure how to check this link easily though (elliptic curves >_>)
3015 2011-06-28 17:55:43 <x6763> Mqrius: no, i just took the 256-bit private key from that big redundant mess bitcoin uses, and then re-generated the public key, and then created the bitcoin address from that public key
3016 2011-06-28 17:56:09 <Mqrius> x6763: Ah, good, then that part is working, at least.
3017 2011-06-28 17:57:14 <gmaxwell> on lfnet: 10:55 -!- Current global users: 31008  Max: 31050
3018 2011-06-28 17:57:39 <BlueMatt> damn
3019 2011-06-28 17:57:44 <Mqrius> x6763: Any idea what I could have messed up with importing? Does it need the other endian or something?
3020 2011-06-28 17:57:52 mosimo has joined
3021 2011-06-28 17:58:21 <gmaxwell> If we don't get upnp by default sometime soon, I expect we'll start running out of sockets on the listening hosts. :)
3022 2011-06-28 17:58:24 <x6763> Mqrius: that i would have no idea...i don't mess with the original bitcoin code...i have my own that i deal with
3023 2011-06-28 17:58:48 <Mqrius> x6763: Fair enough. Thanks for the help, anyway :)
3024 2011-06-28 17:58:57 <x6763> Mqrius: no problem
3025 2011-06-28 17:59:04 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: switch the transport to UDT or uTP
3026 2011-06-28 17:59:12 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: and use NAT traversal
3027 2011-06-28 17:59:55 <luke-jr> …
3028 2011-06-28 18:00:01 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: TCP is pretty well suited to our needs (well, sctp would be better, but no nat support)
3029 2011-06-28 18:00:01 <luke-jr> freakazoid: that would just make it worse
3030 2011-06-28 18:00:02 <ius> BlueMatt: import/export works pretty well on top of current HEAD I think - although I haven't tested it in depth, it applies cleanly
3031 2011-06-28 18:00:27 <gmaxwell> The socket limitations on listening nodes comes mostly from having something like 10 MBytes of buffer per socket.
3032 2011-06-28 18:00:33 <ius> What's moving the forums going to help by the way? Afraid you'll end up with the same clutter soon enough. Policies, policies, or something
3033 2011-06-28 18:00:46 <freakazoid> luke-jr: why would it make it worse?
3034 2011-06-28 18:00:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that can be arranged
3035 2011-06-28 18:00:57 <luke-jr> ius: forum mod refuses to censor illegal activity
3036 2011-06-28 18:01:00 <gmaxwell> If you trust that you have enough ram you can run thousands of connections.
3037 2011-06-28 18:01:11 <luke-jr> freakazoid: because TCP at least makes *some* sense with NAT, but UDP makes none
3038 2011-06-28 18:01:20 <jgarzik> ius: well one goal is to get forum off of *.bitcoin.org, to make it "less official", in part due to reasons luke-jr just stated
3039 2011-06-28 18:01:30 <freakazoid> luke-jr: the people implementing all the other p2p software in the world disagree with you
3040 2011-06-28 18:01:30 <jgarzik> ius: and de-link from front page, hopefully
3041 2011-06-28 18:01:31 <gmaxwell> Not just 'refuses to censor illegal activity' but won't even make people be subtle about it.
3042 2011-06-28 18:02:01 <freakazoid> maidsafe, skype, flash, all use udp w/ NAT traversal
3043 2011-06-28 18:02:01 suriv has joined
3044 2011-06-28 18:02:05 <gmaxwell> Even if you don't care about illegality, it's tacky.
3045 2011-06-28 18:02:07 <freakazoid> for p2p
3046 2011-06-28 18:02:15 <luke-jr> freakazoid: Skype is VoIP, where UDP makes sense
3047 2011-06-28 18:02:20 <BlueMatt> ius: Im mostly concerned about it wrt wallet crypto
3048 2011-06-28 18:02:34 <luke-jr> never heard of maidsafe
3049 2011-06-28 18:02:35 <midnightmagic> very nice. it is very very nice to be able to collaborate transparently in github. the originator can just troll through all the other contributions and pull back all the stuff he likes.
3050 2011-06-28 18:02:37 <luke-jr> pretty sure Flash uses TCP
3051 2011-06-28 18:02:43 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: UDP is not well suited to our applcation. It's also a lot harder to get it to traverse nat than TCP in general.
3052 2011-06-28 18:02:48 Glasswalker has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3053 2011-06-28 18:02:58 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: That's why I suggested using uTP or UDT
3054 2011-06-28 18:03:08 <freakazoid> luke-jr: for p2p it uses UDP
3055 2011-06-28 18:03:12 krekbwoy has joined
3056 2011-06-28 18:03:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: RE setting number of rounds based on computer speed:  where is this stored, in the wallet?  seems like it would cause trouble for wallets transported to new machines, or simply when the same machine changes CPU speeds (all modern CPUs are quite dynamic w/ clock speed).
3057 2011-06-28 18:03:42 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: you can't get it to traverse NAT backwards *at all* whereas you can with UDP
3058 2011-06-28 18:03:54 <midnightmagic> freakazoid: are you the same one as was lurking on Blotto's amiganet for a while?
3059 2011-06-28 18:03:59 <freakazoid> midnightmagic: nope
3060 2011-06-28 18:04:01 <midnightmagic> k
3061 2011-06-28 18:04:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: it will recalculate when you change the pass, and its stored in the serialized object that holds the master key
3062 2011-06-28 18:04:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: as long as it is stored and reproducible under different conditions, all good
3063 2011-06-28 18:04:35 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: re: dynamic cpu speeds, yes, but when we start using the cpu, they will clock up so...
3064 2011-06-28 18:04:36 <freakazoid> I agree that having to use UDP sucks, but the reality is that without UPNP you're stuck using a proxy or telling the user to configure their firewall, which is a losing battle
3065 2011-06-28 18:04:51 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: you cannot assume they will clock up to the same speed
3066 2011-06-28 18:04:59 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: forward nat is not considered "traversal"
3067 2011-06-28 18:05:17 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but as long as the specific number of rounds is stored, that is not an issue
3068 2011-06-28 18:05:19 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: NAT traversal specifically refers to the ability to make a bidirectional connection even when both ends are behind NAT with no forwarded ports
3069 2011-06-28 18:05:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there is no sameness assumption, the value is saved. It's also clamped to a sane minimum iteations.
3070 2011-06-28 18:05:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: true, but we can assume that they will clock up to a reasonable percentage of their previous speed, if a laptop takes .2 seconds to decrypt instead of .1 because its unplugged...well thats not a big deal
3071 2011-06-28 18:05:25 <jgarzik> good
3072 2011-06-28 18:05:34 <luke-jr> freakazoid: TCP can traverse NAT backward with UPnP
3073 2011-06-28 18:05:36 repl has joined
3074 2011-06-28 18:05:40 <luke-jr> freakazoid: UDP cannot do any better
3075 2011-06-28 18:05:47 <freakazoid> luke-jr: that's false
3076 2011-06-28 18:05:49 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, gmaxwell: ensuring the value is stored was my only issue
3077 2011-06-28 18:05:56 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: oh, well then yea
3078 2011-06-28 18:05:57 <jgarzik> reproducability
3079 2011-06-28 18:06:00 <freakazoid> both ends just make an outbound connection
3080 2011-06-28 18:06:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: its right there in the wallet
3081 2011-06-28 18:06:11 <luke-jr> freakazoid: UDP doesn't have connections
3082 2011-06-28 18:06:14 <jgarzik> good
3083 2011-06-28 18:06:26 <freakazoid> fine, "both ends send outbound packets"
3084 2011-06-28 18:06:30 <freakazoid> geez, let's get pedantic here
3085 2011-06-28 18:06:31 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: this only works if they know the port number the other side got mapped to.
3086 2011-06-28 18:06:37 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: which is easy
3087 2011-06-28 18:06:44 <devon_hillard> what does 'Generated' mean in the bitcoin client's "description" of a transaction?
3088 2011-06-28 18:06:57 <gmaxwell> No, it's not. I've witten voip software professionally, it's a bear to make it work robustly.
3089 2011-06-28 18:06:58 <freakazoid> if you've talked to any other node it can tell you the port and IP
3090 2011-06-28 18:07:44 <gmaxwell> This is also offtopic, because bitcoin is not going to implement a tcp clone on top of udp in userspace anytime soon.
3091 2011-06-28 18:07:55 <freakazoid> I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting using an existing one.
3092 2011-06-28 18:08:00 <freakazoid> UDT or uTP
3093 2011-06-28 18:08:03 Donald__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3094 2011-06-28 18:08:07 <freakazoid> which both have C++ libraries
3095 2011-06-28 18:08:30 Donald__ has joined
3096 2011-06-28 18:08:42 <gmaxwell> Both of which are larger than bitcoin itself IIRC.
3097 2011-06-28 18:08:56 <gmaxwell> Both also don't offer the properties we'd actually want, e.g. no head of line blocking.
3098 2011-06-28 18:09:19 <gmaxwell> I think uTP is also explicitly not tcp friendly (because bittorrent users are asocial jerks)
3099 2011-06-28 18:09:20 <freakazoid> wait what?
3100 2011-06-28 18:09:22 gim has joined
3101 2011-06-28 18:09:32 <freakazoid> uTP was explicitly designed to be TCP friendly
3102 2011-06-28 18:09:58 <freakazoid> you should really research this rather than making decisions that affect a lot of people based on supposition and emotion
3103 2011-06-28 18:09:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, uTP is significantly more conservative with it's backoff bahaviour than TCP is
3104 2011-06-28 18:10:06 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
3105 2011-06-28 18:10:10 <ersi> devon_hillard: Probably means that you were the one that minted a block and gotten 50 BTC reward
3106 2011-06-28 18:10:24 <phantomcircuit> instead of waiting for dropped packets it detects latency changes and adjusts before packets are even dropped
3107 2011-06-28 18:10:35 <freakazoid> the point of uTP is that you don't even have to set the max bandwidth to avoid affecting other connections
3108 2011-06-28 18:10:40 dukeleto has joined
3109 2011-06-28 18:10:48 <midnightmagic> "more" conservatice than exponential backoff?
3110 2011-06-28 18:10:49 <freakazoid> whereas TCP is actually not TCP friendly if you use a lot of connections
3111 2011-06-28 18:10:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well, I'm going off memory — there was a big dispute a few IETF meetings ago, because it was less than expoential.
3112 2011-06-28 18:11:00 <freakazoid> midnightmagic: He means it backs off more aggressively
3113 2011-06-28 18:11:15 <Mqrius> Does anyone know anything about importing keys into the wallet via bitcointools? I tried adding the priv/pub key pair, and adding an address. The address ends up in my sending addresses, not sure if that's a problem. Anyway, if I send money to the address, it doesn't seem to arrive.
3114 2011-06-28 18:11:20 <freakazoid> which is conservative in terms of bandwidth usage
3115 2011-06-28 18:11:33 <midnightmagic> freakazoid: Yes I understood what he meant. I just find it difficult to imagine something that backs off more aggressively than exponentially.. :)
3116 2011-06-28 18:11:33 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: well, in actual practice, it's friendlier
3117 2011-06-28 18:11:43 <freakazoid> midnightmagic: well I'm probably wrong about that
3118 2011-06-28 18:11:45 Gonzago has joined
3119 2011-06-28 18:11:48 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, yes standard tcp waits for packet drops to signical changes in the window size, uTP measures latency and adjusts based on that
3120 2011-06-28 18:12:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: most modern tcp stacks do that too.
3121 2011-06-28 18:12:10 <freakazoid> TCP actually has serious problems because it was not designed for high latency high bandwidth networks with huge buffers
3122 2011-06-28 18:12:25 <BlueMatt> freakazoid: did you just google tcp?
3123 2011-06-28 18:12:35 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: Does uTP also do exponential backoff when packets are actually dropped? Because dropped packets is what backbones do, moreso than just a latency thing, to control flow.
3124 2011-06-28 18:12:42 <freakazoid> anyway, this has become a religious war where nobody seems to be interested in actual truth.
3125 2011-06-28 18:12:49 <MrSam> utp ? :)
3126 2011-06-28 18:12:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's been my experience that uTP is significantly lighter on the network for lots of bulk transfers than TCP is
3127 2011-06-28 18:13:08 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: it's not a "religious war" you're throwing buzzwords at a non-issue.
3128 2011-06-28 18:13:10 <phantomcircuit> it was designed to make home NAT routers happy
3129 2011-06-28 18:13:24 <phantomcircuit> so you can have torrents running at the same time as WoW
3130 2011-06-28 18:13:30 <phantomcircuit> and everything works
3131 2011-06-28 18:13:34 <b4epoche> speaking of bitcointools (let's stop with the TCP talk), what functionality would be good to have in the client?
3132 2011-06-28 18:13:38 <midnightmagic> TCP is designed to accommodate LFN, the endpoints just need bigger buffers to do it.
3133 2011-06-28 18:13:43 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3134 2011-06-28 18:13:52 <BlueMatt> realistic quesiont: even if tcp isnt ideal there is no chance we would do all the work to switch to another protocol...its just too much work, unless there is actually a huge issue...though Im assuming no one is talking about bitcoin here anymore anyway
3135 2011-06-28 18:13:53 <midnightmagic> b4epoche: are you writing something?
3136 2011-06-28 18:13:55 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: was just a suggestion; you guys seem dead set against even looking at anything other than TCP to fill your needs, because apparently you think UPNP support is widespread and functional enough to do what you need
3137 2011-06-28 18:13:56 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: well, and to support window scaling.
3138 2011-06-28 18:14:02 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: if that's indeed the case, then great.
3139 2011-06-28 18:14:02 <MrSam> b4epoche: still looking for features ? why not automatic payments
3140 2011-06-28 18:14:13 <MrSam> b4epoche: like i want to pay my rent in BTC every 4 weeks
3141 2011-06-28 18:14:17 <b4epoche> midnightmagic: yes, a cocoa-based client
3142 2011-06-28 18:14:47 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, yes but it poorly handles LOTS of LFN connections
3143 2011-06-28 18:14:49 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I was under the impression that UPNP support was significantly less common than NATs that use the same outside port for a given inside port and host
3144 2011-06-28 18:14:57 <b4epoche> MrSam:  Yes, I do plan for this to turn into (a good) Quicken at some point…  but now now
3145 2011-06-28 18:15:09 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: a style of NAT whose name I'm currently blanking on.
3146 2011-06-28 18:15:10 <MrSam> b4epoche: you could also add the 'start mining' feature that they dropped
3147 2011-06-28 18:15:13 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: just about everybody supports window scaling.
3148 2011-06-28 18:15:17 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: we're doing okay today with _no_ automatic traversal at all. UPNP probably only works for a quarter of the hosts or so, but that would be something like a 10x increase in listening nodes.
3149 2011-06-28 18:15:21 <MrSam> b4epoche: and use gpu mining
3150 2011-06-28 18:15:50 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: "what IP tables does" I actually don't know what the port stable stuff is called. But it's depressingly uncommon.
3151 2011-06-28 18:15:52 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: well that sounds like less work for what is already a substantial gain.
3152 2011-06-28 18:15:58 <b4epoche> no mining…  this is a client for idiots
3153 2011-06-28 18:16:19 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: especially since we have upnp support, it's just not activated by default.
3154 2011-06-28 18:16:23 <b4epoche> but I'm thinking stuff like wallet merging/maintenance/etc. might be good to have
3155 2011-06-28 18:16:47 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: I was under the impression that it was true on the vast majority of consumer NAT boxes
3156 2011-06-28 18:16:55 <phantomcircuit> lol
3157 2011-06-28 18:17:02 <phantomcircuit> ^ cluster fuck
3158 2011-06-28 18:17:05 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: In fact I remember reading a survey to that effect recently
3159 2011-06-28 18:17:35 <gmaxwell> No, I'm pretty sure it's basically only the Linux based ones. I can tell you that behavior is almost completely absent on enterprise firewalls.
3160 2011-06-28 18:17:47 <gmaxwell> It also fails when there is more than one client.
3161 2011-06-28 18:18:02 <gmaxwell> (which is a reason you can't depend on it even when it exists)
3162 2011-06-28 18:18:08 sabalaba has joined
3163 2011-06-28 18:18:15 <phantomcircuit> you can pierce just about any NAT with a simple STUN server
3164 2011-06-28 18:18:37 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: it came to me: symmetric firewall
3165 2011-06-28 18:18:41 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: The requirement isn't that it be the same port outside as inside - the requirement is that the port not change willy nilly just because the dest IP changed
3166 2011-06-28 18:18:45 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: It doesn't look like uTP does exponential backoff.. This means that backbones are going to be angry and drop more packets on uTP than on a stream that is correctly going exponential backoff.
3167 2011-06-28 18:19:01 gruez has quit (Quit: Return false;)
3168 2011-06-28 18:19:05 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: which iptables meets
3169 2011-06-28 18:19:27 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, uTP isn't really designed to make the backbones happy, it basically assumes they can handle their shit on their own (which is more or less true)
3170 2011-06-28 18:19:32 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: yeah, enterprise firewalls are really a non-starter since they're intentionally designed to hinder this sort of thing
3171 2011-06-28 18:19:40 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: ...
3172 2011-06-28 18:19:40 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, it's designed to make home NAT routers happy
3173 2011-06-28 18:19:49 <freakazoid> My head is much more in the consumer software space
3174 2011-06-28 18:20:12 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: Anything that traverses a backbone and doesn't do exponential back-off is going to be severely disproportionately punished..
3175 2011-06-28 18:20:18 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: yes, iptables is symmetric by default, until you start a second client. Or change intenal IPs without waiting for the session to time out.
3176 2011-06-28 18:20:29 ThomasV has joined
3177 2011-06-28 18:20:38 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: right, symmetry isn't the requirement
3178 2011-06-28 18:20:40 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: There are a pile of research papers I just had to go through for work that have designs that do exactly that.
3179 2011-06-28 18:20:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: not quite, nothing does per-flow queing. So if something is sub-exponential it will tend to occupy more of the queue.
3180 2011-06-28 18:20:46 sabalaba has quit (Client Quit)
3181 2011-06-28 18:20:50 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Endpoint to endpoint.
3182 2011-06-28 18:21:06 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Lemme find some references for you, brb
3183 2011-06-28 18:21:26 pklaus has left ()
3184 2011-06-28 18:21:37 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: the requirement is that if I send UDP from a given host and port to a second and then a third host, the firewall will use the same source port for each, *not* that it will use the same source port the internal host does.
3185 2011-06-28 18:21:43 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Go look at any of the papers on westwood and how it smashes reno on the network.
3186 2011-06-28 18:22:09 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: which is a requirement Linux meets regardless of the number of internal hosts - once a source port is allocated it is kept.
3187 2011-06-28 18:22:15 <gmaxwell> freakazoid: right so you're then dependant on a stun/turn service.
3188 2011-06-28 18:22:45 eoss has joined
3189 2011-06-28 18:22:51 <freakazoid> gmaxwell: actually you're only dependent on being able to contact any host running the software, since an RPC call to tell you your IP and port is trivial to implement.
3190 2011-06-28 18:22:57 <jrmithdobbs> what are we arguing about? whether doing more than upnp is necessary for p2p net expansion?
3191 2011-06-28 18:23:11 <freakazoid> IOW, for the *first* connection you rely on the other host having UPNP or an open port, but not for any subsequent connection,
3192 2011-06-28 18:23:13 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3193 2011-06-28 18:23:15 <Mqrius> What are fun words/things to have in a novelty address? I'm working on a standalone generator, and I want a nice wordlist to check against :P
3194 2011-06-28 18:23:21 <gmaxwell> Heck if I know. freakazoid thinks bitcoin needs to replace tcp in userspace but I have no clue why.
3195 2011-06-28 18:23:34 <jrmithdobbs> hah what
3196 2011-06-28 18:23:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well, in order to use stun/turn to traverse nat.
3197 2011-06-28 18:24:38 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: I was suggesting using UDT or uTP with an RPC call to give external IP/port to be able to work in situations where there is no UPNP but the user is using a typical consumer firewall
3198 2011-06-28 18:24:52 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: westwood won't matter. The packet flows themselves between endpoints are being actively dropped when they are detected to be non-exponential back-offed in response to initial packet-drops.
3199 2011-06-28 18:25:04 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: but both of those are udp based aren't they?
3200 2011-06-28 18:25:22 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: UDP based and implement their own TCP-friendly congestion control
3201 2011-06-28 18:25:29 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's awful
3202 2011-06-28 18:25:35 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: why?
3203 2011-06-28 18:25:48 <jrmithdobbs> most consumer nas devices that implement either of those also already implement upnp
3204 2011-06-28 18:25:51 <jrmithdobbs> for one thing
3205 2011-06-28 18:25:54 <BlueMatt> because then we have to build our own userspace stack, thats a terrible solution
3206 2011-06-28 18:25:57 <jrmithdobbs> err s/nas/routing/
3207 2011-06-28 18:26:03 <jrmithdobbs> sorry got nas on the brain
3208 2011-06-28 18:26:16 <freakazoid> whether they implement it or not is not the question - the question is whether it's actually turned on
3209 2011-06-28 18:26:33 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: so not only does a tcp-like implementation need to be built into bitcoin to get the same behaviour we have now, but that would be done at little-to-no gain
3210 2011-06-28 18:26:35 germanMNY has joined
3211 2011-06-28 18:26:42 <freakazoid> If someone could link me to a resource that shows that UPNP is actually available in most situations where STUN works, I'd shut up.
3212 2011-06-28 18:26:51 <freakazoid> "available" meaning "actually working
3213 2011-06-28 18:26:52 Eremes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3214 2011-06-28 18:27:03 User973 has joined
3215 2011-06-28 18:27:31 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: linking in an already-implemented user-space congestion control library for UDP is a big deal?
3216 2011-06-28 18:27:43 Donald__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3217 2011-06-28 18:27:46 <lfm> yup
3218 2011-06-28 18:27:57 User973 has quit (Client Quit)
3219 2011-06-28 18:28:02 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: if it were really "same behavior we have now" then yeah it'd be dumb, however, that has yet to be shown
3220 2011-06-28 18:28:27 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: yes, and you're forgetting the testing of said implementation to ensure it really does deliver tcp-like performance+reliability
3221 2011-06-28 18:28:28 <freakazoid> and my impression was that in fact the necessary type of NAT is far more common than UPNP that's actually turned on
3222 2011-06-28 18:28:50 <freakazoid> jrmithdobbs: uTP and UDT are both widely deployed and tested
3223 2011-06-28 18:29:02 topace has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3224 2011-06-28 18:29:24 Incitatus has joined
3225 2011-06-28 18:29:33 <BlueMatt> you could theoretically do a tcp split handshake to implement something like stun in tcp
3226 2011-06-28 18:29:41 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3227 2011-06-28 18:29:44 <jrmithdobbs> not to mention this would either require an external forwarding proxy if you want legacy nodes to connect to these new nodes (not gonna happen)
3228 2011-06-28 18:29:53 <BlueMatt> iirc
3229 2011-06-28 18:30:06 <jrmithdobbs> or no legacy clients will ever connect to the nodes using this nat traversal method
3230 2011-06-28 18:30:14 <jrmithdobbs> i don't see the benefit.
3231 2011-06-28 18:30:35 <BlueMatt> or...actually no split handshake would probably not work, but you might still be able to do something like stun in tcp just fine
3232 2011-06-28 18:30:37 <jrmithdobbs> it's a lot of complexity and a new vector for various attacks on the bitcoin client directly
3233 2011-06-28 18:30:48 <jrmithdobbs> with little-to-no gain
3234 2011-06-28 18:31:10 topace has joined
3235 2011-06-28 18:31:24 <BlueMatt> yep, best, by far, to stick with tcp
3236 2011-06-28 18:31:26 <BlueMatt> as it is now
3237 2011-06-28 18:31:44 <BlueMatt> and, if it does become a huge problem in the future, see if we can pull off a stun-style traversal in tcp
3238 2011-06-28 18:32:09 <lfm> or see what upnp on by default does?
3239 2011-06-28 18:32:13 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3240 2011-06-28 18:32:21 IncitatusOnWater has joined
3241 2011-06-28 18:32:29 <BlueMatt> thats what I meant by in the future, enable upnp by default now, and if there is still a problem...
3242 2011-06-28 18:33:37 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: Are you around?
3243 2011-06-28 18:33:47 <Dagger2> I think I mentioned the option of using teredo for nat traversal
3244 2011-06-28 18:33:52 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, I am
3245 2011-06-28 18:34:00 <Dagger2> which is designed for doing that, and you can do TCP on top of it...
3246 2011-06-28 18:34:24 <BlueMatt> Dagger2: that seems like an equally as bad solution as uTP or that other crap
3247 2011-06-28 18:34:31 <jrmithdobbs> i think worrying so much about nat traversal is a waste of time
3248 2011-06-28 18:34:41 <jrmithdobbs> most of the clients that's an issue for will be running thin clients in the future anyways
3249 2011-06-28 18:34:43 <gmaxwell> oy.. hah using ipv6 to get around nats? haha
3250 2011-06-28 18:34:51 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, did you figure out your key problem last night?
3251 2011-06-28 18:34:58 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: absolutely
3252 2011-06-28 18:35:02 <Dagger2> yeah, I got that response last time, but nobody could quite justify it
3253 2011-06-28 18:35:04 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: Yeah, I think so
3254 2011-06-28 18:35:17 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, awesome :)
3255 2011-06-28 18:35:21 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: But it's not working properly yet. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18051.0 for details
3256 2011-06-28 18:35:23 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3257 2011-06-28 18:35:25 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: well, there's actually work on a real thin client lib that actually functions now
3258 2011-06-28 18:35:31 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: so it's a real answer ;p
3259 2011-06-28 18:35:34 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: (bitcoinj)
3260 2011-06-28 18:35:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its a terrible solution for a program, but Ive seen some stuff by people like mubix et al showing how to enable it and use it from within metasploit to keep a session open :)
3261 2011-06-28 18:35:46 <ius> luke-jr: What illegal stuff? Silkroad and derivatives? Although I do see plenty of 'scams' not being modded either
3262 2011-06-28 18:35:54 <upb> yorick: good job, hope you use a compressor and didnt do it manually :)
3263 2011-06-28 18:36:08 <wasabi> I want IPv6 support.
3264 2011-06-28 18:36:18 <BlueMatt> wasabi: so do I...care to write it?
3265 2011-06-28 18:36:28 <wasabi> Maybe someday.
3266 2011-06-28 18:36:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: luke-jr never finished rebasing for me
3267 2011-06-28 18:36:35 <jrmithdobbs> :(
3268 2011-06-28 18:36:45 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, that's just my post there, did you write any reply that I can't see?
3269 2011-06-28 18:36:53 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: pfft, I did most of it! :P
3270 2011-06-28 18:37:09 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: Oh sorry, wrong link. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23764.0
3271 2011-06-28 18:38:10 Donald__ has joined
3272 2011-06-28 18:38:23 AStove has joined
3273 2011-06-28 18:38:26 Eremes has joined
3274 2011-06-28 18:39:07 <Dagger2> saying "teredo is bad because you can maintain a tcp session over it" seems kinda silly; talking to people is what IP is for
3275 2011-06-28 18:39:49 <wasabi> Teredo is only bad because it's hard to get working properly. =/
3276 2011-06-28 18:39:52 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3277 2011-06-28 18:40:18 <lfm> Dagger2: saying tcp is bad because you can maintain a tcp connect over teredo seems silly too
3278 2011-06-28 18:40:28 <Dagger2> it's only hard for other people. I installed win7 to test it, and it worked out of the box :/
3279 2011-06-28 18:40:56 <BlueMatt> wasabi: no, teredo is bad because not only are we reimplementing a protocol in userspace, but now a network stack and protocol...
3280 2011-06-28 18:40:57 <wasabi> I use it for my road warriors (I run an IT department)   It's fairly flakely depending on where they go.
3281 2011-06-28 18:40:57 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3282 2011-06-28 18:41:04 sytse has joined
3283 2011-06-28 18:41:05 <Dagger2> rather annoyingly, because I liked complaining about how teredo never worked for me
3284 2011-06-28 18:41:14 <wasabi> BlueMatt, who is reimplementing what in userspace?
3285 2011-06-28 18:41:15 <Dagger2> but then I tried, and it did. blah.
3286 2011-06-28 18:41:27 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, just looking at block explorer now, I don't see that address used?
3287 2011-06-28 18:41:42 <Dagger2> yeah, why would we reimplement it in userspace? leave teredo support to the OS
3288 2011-06-28 18:41:48 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: Nope, I used 1MZ2mqEnJ9Tu9kHiJhSWxYmuD4urr2VWuX
3289 2011-06-28 18:41:48 dbasch has joined
3290 2011-06-28 18:41:48 <BlueMatt> wasabi: teredo
3291 2011-06-28 18:41:51 <lfm> wasabi most people who want to replace tcp
3292 2011-06-28 18:41:59 <wasabi> Which portion of it is in userspace? And why does that matter?
3293 2011-06-28 18:42:03 <wasabi> OpenVPN runs in userspace. I like it.
3294 2011-06-28 18:42:13 <diki> ;;bc,stats
3295 2011-06-28 18:42:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133717 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1354 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 37 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1479068.09604907
3296 2011-06-28 18:42:38 <BlueMatt> wasabi: because its more attack surface to not only have bitcoin, but also teredo, an ipv6 stack, and tcp
3297 2011-06-28 18:42:46 Eremes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3298 2011-06-28 18:42:47 <lfm> I think most bitcoin is linux still
3299 2011-06-28 18:42:49 <BlueMatt> wasabi: even if its a library
3300 2011-06-28 18:42:55 <wasabi> I guess I have no idea what the conversation is about. I'd never suggest any app embed teredo.
3301 2011-06-28 18:43:00 ar4s has joined
3302 2011-06-28 18:43:16 <yorick> upb: used a compressor :-)
3303 2011-06-28 18:43:26 <wasabi> Windows Vista/7 have it enabled by default, and it works as well as it can.
3304 2011-06-28 18:43:27 <BlueMatt> wasabi: we were discussion ways bitcoin can traverse nat, not os-level but bitcoin-level
3305 2011-06-28 18:43:31 <wasabi> Oh.
3306 2011-06-28 18:43:36 <Dagger2> we would have no teredo-specific support at all; we'd just have ipv6 support (which we agree we want anyway, right?)
3307 2011-06-28 18:43:43 <yorick> whoa that lightning strike was close
3308 2011-06-28 18:43:44 <BlueMatt> absolutely
3309 2011-06-28 18:43:49 <Dagger2> the OS would implement teredo, and tunnel through NATs for us
3310 2011-06-28 18:43:55 <wasabi> Having no horse in the race, I'd say don't bother. Yeah.
3311 2011-06-28 18:43:57 <BlueMatt> Dagger2: yea
3312 2011-06-28 18:44:04 <wasabi> Just do IPv6 support and suggest Teredo be enabled.
3313 2011-06-28 18:44:12 <wasabi> What the heck happens if you have two teredo stacks on a machine, anyways?
3314 2011-06-28 18:44:21 <lfm> yup, everyone in the whole world want ipv6, thats why its taking 20 years to implement
3315 2011-06-28 18:44:22 <wasabi> I guess it encodes the incoming port number on the address, right?
3316 2011-06-28 18:44:27 <Dagger2> we'd just connect to people via ipv6 instead of ipv4. some of those connections would happen to be to teredo addresses, which would end up tunneled without us even realizing
3317 2011-06-28 18:44:43 earthmeLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3318 2011-06-28 18:44:51 <BlueMatt> Dagger2: yep...have the time to implement ipv6?
3319 2011-06-28 18:46:02 <wasabi> I know nothing about the protocol. I'm know addresses are passed between nodes, so that means that there's a 32bit field for IP address somewhere in the packet specification. Right?
3320 2011-06-28 18:46:03 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3321 2011-06-28 18:46:21 <Dagger2> I have the time, the question is whether I can do it before I get bored :/
3322 2011-06-28 18:46:21 <wasabi> And of course all the internal structures to maintain the list of known addresses.
3323 2011-06-28 18:46:24 aga has joined
3324 2011-06-28 18:46:25 <BlueMatt> wasabi: no bitcoin stores ipv4s as ipv6mapped ipv4s
3325 2011-06-28 18:46:32 <Dagger2> where's the repository, and what state is it in?
3326 2011-06-28 18:46:33 <wasabi> Oh. Well that's smart.
3327 2011-06-28 18:46:34 <lfm> wasabi ya more than 1 place I think
3328 2011-06-28 18:46:46 <wasabi> That sounds like an afternoon job then.
3329 2011-06-28 18:46:50 <wasabi> Heh. ;)
3330 2011-06-28 18:46:52 <lfm> wasabi and in a database too
3331 2011-06-28 18:46:54 aga is now known as agath
3332 2011-06-28 18:46:57 stuhood has joined
3333 2011-06-28 18:47:00 <BlueMatt> wasabi: its probably more than that...but still shouldnt be impossible
3334 2011-06-28 18:47:04 Tim-7967 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3335 2011-06-28 18:47:06 <BlueMatt> lfm: no
3336 2011-06-28 18:47:18 earthmeLon has joined
3337 2011-06-28 18:47:18 earthmeLon has quit (Changing host)
3338 2011-06-28 18:47:18 earthmeLon has joined
3339 2011-06-28 18:47:20 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, this looks right when I compare it to the other public/private keys stored in the wallet
3340 2011-06-28 18:47:22 <lfm> addr.dat ?
3341 2011-06-28 18:47:23 <wasabi> If it's IPv6 encoded addresses, it probably just means you have to change the socket handling code to pick a stack based on address.
3342 2011-06-28 18:47:25 wardearia has joined
3343 2011-06-28 18:47:32 ar4s has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3344 2011-06-28 18:47:38 <BlueMatt> lfm: is addr.dat not ipv6-mapped like getaddrs is?
3345 2011-06-28 18:47:46 <wasabi> No idea what the Win32/POSIX differences are in the code base either though.
3346 2011-06-28 18:47:48 <lfm> oh not sure
3347 2011-06-28 18:47:57 <BlueMatt> Id assume it is
3348 2011-06-28 18:47:58 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it is
3349 2011-06-28 18:48:06 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: You seem to do something with reversing the keys in your post? ( pkey = pubkey[::-1] + etc)
3350 2011-06-28 18:48:20 <Dagger2> wasabi: you shouldn't even need that... the OS should automatically change "ipv6" connection attempts to ::ffff:<v4> to use v4 itself
3351 2011-06-28 18:48:33 <wasabi> And whatever code is determining what the available local addresses are, that has to be changed, so as to export the local IPv6 addreses in 2000::/3
3352 2011-06-28 18:48:37 <Dagger2> (though "the OS" doesn't include XP, which doesn't implement v4-mapped addresses)
3353 2011-06-28 18:48:47 <wasabi> Dagger2: As long as OS's without that ability are supported... etc.
3354 2011-06-28 18:48:52 <BlueMatt> Dagger2: I never said I knew if they were properly mapped or if its something like ::<v4>
3355 2011-06-28 18:48:58 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, yeah, to get the byte order right. But that seems fine in your case
3356 2011-06-28 18:49:07 <Mqrius> okay..
3357 2011-06-28 18:49:09 <Titeuf_87> Mqrius, did you try starting with -rescan?
3358 2011-06-28 18:49:18 <BlueMatt> wasabi: Dagger2 there are also some more broad sybil stuff you need to deal with aside from just implementing the connections
3359 2011-06-28 18:49:19 <devon_hillard> what does 'Generated' mean in the bitcoin client's "description" of a transaction? I got a 0.21 BTC reward, so it wasn't a new printed block
3360 2011-06-28 18:49:34 <jrmithdobbs> yes it was
3361 2011-06-28 18:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> from eligius
3362 2011-06-28 18:49:40 conjre has joined
3363 2011-06-28 18:49:43 <BlueMatt> devon_hillard: it was a new printed block, but you only got part of the payout, from luke's pool
3364 2011-06-28 18:49:47 <devon_hillard> ah, I see
3365 2011-06-28 18:50:12 <devon_hillard> slush's payout messages look different
3366 2011-06-28 18:50:33 <wasabi> It's pretty cool. I have native IPv6 at the office now.
3367 2011-06-28 18:50:34 <lfm> ya
3368 2011-06-28 18:51:26 conjre has quit (Client Quit)
3369 2011-06-28 18:51:28 <Mqrius> Titeuf_87: I thought I did, but I just did it again, and now it's working :D
3370 2011-06-28 18:51:32 <Mqrius> Awesome :D
3371 2011-06-28 18:51:40 <Titeuf_87> Nice :)
3372 2011-06-28 18:51:49 conjre has joined
3373 2011-06-28 18:52:05 <Mqrius> Thanks ^^
3374 2011-06-28 18:54:26 <ius> Hmmf
3375 2011-06-28 18:54:36 <ius> Can I somehow slap code on a pull request comment?
3376 2011-06-28 18:54:49 glassresistor has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3377 2011-06-28 18:55:28 altamic has joined
3378 2011-06-28 18:55:44 <b4epoche> would the 'average' user ever want to set fee > 0.1?
3379 2011-06-28 18:56:10 <lfm> would the 'average' user ever want to set fee > 0.0?
3380 2011-06-28 18:56:20 <midnightmagic> yes to both
3381 2011-06-28 18:56:27 <b4epoche> I've set it to not allow anything higher as an idiot-proof
3382 2011-06-28 18:56:44 <b4epoche> is there a reasonable upper limit to implement?
3383 2011-06-28 18:56:52 <jrmithdobbs> no
3384 2011-06-28 18:56:57 <midnightmagic> I would prefer to be able to specify the fee, even if the result is less than the minimum, or greater than the calculated fee.
3385 2011-06-28 18:56:58 <jrmithdobbs> it's txn-size based
3386 2011-06-28 18:57:04 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: youve set what to not allow >0.1 fee?
3387 2011-06-28 18:57:07 <lfm> Max fee: 4.32000000 2010-08-09 20:08:34
3388 2011-06-28 18:57:20 <b4epoche> no, this is the preferences (optional) fee
3389 2011-06-28 18:57:28 <b4epoche> sorry for the confusion
3390 2011-06-28 18:57:38 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: in what client?
3391 2011-06-28 18:57:40 pklaus has joined
3392 2011-06-28 18:57:46 <b4epoche> my client ;-)
3393 2011-06-28 18:57:58 <b4epoche> cocoa one
3394 2011-06-28 18:58:01 Donald__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3395 2011-06-28 18:58:07 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3396 2011-06-28 18:58:34 <lfm> someone presumably "wanted" 4.32 BTC fee
3397 2011-06-28 18:58:46 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: can you do the cocoa one in such a way as for it to be pullable into satoshi client, ie not change much/any internal stuff and just reimplement ui.*, uibase.*?
3398 2011-06-28 18:59:18 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  that is /exactly/ what I'm doing
3399 2011-06-28 18:59:35 <BlueMatt> ok, good, just wanted to make sure
3400 2011-06-28 18:59:46 <b4epoche> I haven't changed anything in 'core' code besides fixing a naming conflict
3401 2011-06-28 18:59:51 <ius> :( github hates me
3402 2011-06-28 18:59:52 <BlueMatt> is it working? you seem to be asking about adding more features
3403 2011-06-28 19:00:02 <b4epoche> which I think I can fix without modding core code
3404 2011-06-28 19:00:03 <BlueMatt> ie if it is working, can you just pull req it now?
3405 2011-06-28 19:00:10 Incitatus has joined
3406 2011-06-28 19:00:12 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: it is working...
3407 2011-06-28 19:00:24 <b4epoche> cosmetic stuff
3408 2011-06-28 19:00:30 <b4epoche> is not finished
3409 2011-06-28 19:00:44 <BlueMatt> ah, ok...I just wondered if it was pullreq-able
3410 2011-06-28 19:00:51 <lfm>  bitcoin is not finished, its still in beta
3411 2011-06-28 19:00:58 * b4epoche being a n00b to software dev, really has no idea what a pull req is
3412 2011-06-28 19:01:13 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: good the wx support can be completely dropped on osx then
3413 2011-06-28 19:01:15 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3414 2011-06-28 19:01:29 <b4epoche> I've never worked with others on code…
3415 2011-06-28 19:01:41 <meelu> lol whats going on with the bitcoin price
3416 2011-06-28 19:01:46 <ius> Can anyone review/comment on my boost hackery? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/214
3417 2011-06-28 19:01:47 <meelu> bad time for me to buy my bitcoins
3418 2011-06-28 19:01:51 <b4epoche> all this pulling/pushing/merging/etc is new to me
3419 2011-06-28 19:02:01 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: its on github, when you think it is ready to go into the main repo, you submit a pull request so that people can look over it and merge it if its good
3420 2011-06-28 19:02:13 <jrmithdobbs> meelu: what do you mean
3421 2011-06-28 19:02:29 <meelu> i was just looking at market trade prices
3422 2011-06-28 19:02:42 <meelu> and the value dropped from the last time i saw it
3423 2011-06-28 19:02:42 <b4epoche> does 'good' = 'works'?
3424 2011-06-28 19:03:19 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: compared to wx? ya pretty much. for everything? no
3425 2011-06-28 19:03:19 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3426 2011-06-28 19:03:20 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: it means the code is fairly clean and it works
3427 2011-06-28 19:03:28 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: why the wx hate?
3428 2011-06-28 19:03:33 <b4epoche> because going from 'works' to 'good' might be forever ;-)
3429 2011-06-28 19:03:41 <ius> Bwah, I've diffed my patch, ignore that
3430 2011-06-28 19:03:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: because their osx implementation is awful
3431 2011-06-28 19:03:59 <lfm> meelu isnt that what markets do, change the price?
3432 2011-06-28 19:04:04 * b4epoche is a mechanical engineering professor…  please be nice to my code ;-)
3433 2011-06-28 19:04:13 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: oh, well I know nothing about it on osx, but it seems to work just fine on linux/win
3434 2011-06-28 19:04:21 <meelu> whats with the questions? is everyone trying to intimidate me lfm?
3435 2011-06-28 19:04:37 <lfm> b4epoche sorry thats not an acceptable excuse
3436 2011-06-28 19:04:46 * BlueMatt just got out of hs and had never programmed in C++ before bitcoin, nor even bothered to read any C++, it cant be worse than mine ;)
3437 2011-06-28 19:05:00 <pklaus> meelu, when the BTC value droped since the last time you looked, why is it a bad time to buy then?
3438 2011-06-28 19:05:11 <b4epoche> okay…  I guess I've written iOS apps...
3439 2011-06-28 19:05:28 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: is it on github, and is it rebased against latest head?
3440 2011-06-28 19:05:41 <meelu> because the value dropped since the first time i decided to buy a bitcoin pklaus, anymore relevant questiosn?
3441 2011-06-28 19:06:07 <b4epoche> but my programming history is this:  1984:  Basic;  1988:  Fortran;  2004:  PHP/MySQL;  2007:  ObjC/C
3442 2011-06-28 19:06:14 <lfm> meelu if it drops  wont it go up again?
3443 2011-06-28 19:06:19 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: just post it ;)
3444 2011-06-28 19:06:34 <Mqrius> Hmm, my alpha vintage address generator checks ~300 keys/sec. Nearly all of this is key generation though...
3445 2011-06-28 19:06:36 <meelu> lfm, What if it doesn't go up again?
3446 2011-06-28 19:06:50 <meelu> lfm, will it go up again?
3447 2011-06-28 19:06:54 <pklaus> it's called risk
3448 2011-06-28 19:06:57 * b4epoche supposes he needs a github account
3449 2011-06-28 19:07:09 <lfm> meelu, look at graphs, it goes up and down all the time, it hardly ever goes just one way
3450 2011-06-28 19:07:53 <meelu> i know what its called, If i posted that message in #bitcoin instead of accidently posting it on #bitcoin-dev i wouldn't be responded with mass highlights and un-neccesary questions
3451 2011-06-28 19:08:12 <meelu> and comments.
3452 2011-06-28 19:08:25 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  you have a minute to walk me through putting this on github?
3453 2011-06-28 19:08:42 <lfm> time up
3454 2011-06-28 19:09:01 Marf has joined
3455 2011-06-28 19:09:07 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: shoot
3456 2011-06-28 19:09:49 <b4epoche> logged in and looking at Pull Requests for bitcoin/bitcoin
3457 2011-06-28 19:10:06 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what you need to do is make a fork of bitcoin/bitcoin
3458 2011-06-28 19:10:08 <b4epoche> not seeing how to add one
3459 2011-06-28 19:10:18 <BlueMatt> then you should be able to push your own stuff in that fork
3460 2011-06-28 19:10:24 <meelu> i hate Narcissistic people.
3461 2011-06-28 19:10:25 <BlueMatt> and from there you can submit a pull request
3462 2011-06-28 19:10:25 <b4epoche> forked
3463 2011-06-28 19:10:37 <lfm> I hate all bigots
3464 2011-06-28 19:10:39 B0g4r7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3465 2011-06-28 19:10:41 <BlueMatt> ok, now Im assuming your bitcoin fork is in a git folder?
3466 2011-06-28 19:10:49 <BlueMatt> and you have git installed on your machine
3467 2011-06-28 19:11:00 <pklaus> you must fork the project, commit your changes, push your changes to your fork and then click on pull request.
3468 2011-06-28 19:11:10 <b4epoche> I do have git on machine (built in to Xcode)
3469 2011-06-28 19:11:22 <pklaus> this is enough!
3470 2011-06-28 19:11:49 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3471 2011-06-28 19:11:55 <b4epoche> so, you mean my local bitcoin code/fork?
3472 2011-06-28 19:11:56 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well the only git I know how to use is the command line one, but it should be not too hard to do in a gui one
3473 2011-06-28 19:12:08 <b4epoche> yes, I've using git locally for vc
3474 2011-06-28 19:12:17 <b4epoche> command line is fine
3475 2011-06-28 19:12:32 <BlueMatt> now, in your bitcoin folder (wherever all your bitcoin stuff is) you are gonna want to do something like git remote add origin git@github.com:TheBlueMatt/bitcoin.git
3476 2011-06-28 19:12:39 <BlueMatt> replacing that with your repo
3477 2011-06-28 19:12:43 * b4epoche will mess with the git front end on his own time
3478 2011-06-28 19:12:43 <BlueMatt> (what it says on github)
3479 2011-06-28 19:12:55 <pklaus> so the next step would be to clone the project from your repository or if you work with git already locally (because you forked from the original repo) you may just add the remote as BlueMatt points out.
3480 2011-06-28 19:13:10 skeledrew1 has joined
3481 2011-06-28 19:13:15 Incitatus has joined
3482 2011-06-28 19:13:16 <BlueMatt> yea, what pklaus said
3483 2011-06-28 19:13:53 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3484 2011-06-28 19:14:04 larsivi has joined
3485 2011-06-28 19:14:30 Incitatus has joined
3486 2011-06-28 19:14:31 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3487 2011-06-28 19:15:10 <b4epoche>  $git remote add origin git@github.com:TheBlueMatt/bitcoin.git
3488 2011-06-28 19:15:22 <BlueMatt> no, replace TheBlueMatt with your user
3489 2011-06-28 19:15:27 <b4epoche> yea, got that
3490 2011-06-28 19:15:30 <lfm> b4epoche did you read and follow  coding.txt in doc directory?
3491 2011-06-28 19:15:36 <b4epoche> but from base local directory
3492 2011-06-28 19:15:58 <b4epoche> lfm: of course not
3493 2011-06-28 19:16:21 <pklaus> OK. Then you should be able to push via `git push origin master`
3494 2011-06-28 19:16:26 <lfm> b4epoche might wanna do that before you ask for "pull"
3495 2011-06-28 19:16:44 <b4epoche> my ui, my coding style...
3496 2011-06-28 19:16:56 <b4epoche> if I mess with base code I'll follow the rules
3497 2011-06-28 19:17:04 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3498 2011-06-28 19:17:07 <BlueMatt> lfm b4epoche personally, I dont care about the coding style in an alternate ui, as long as the coding style in the rest of the client is maintained (not that I like that either)
3499 2011-06-28 19:17:18 <b4epoche> and since I see nothing about ObjC, I guess I'm free to do whatever
3500 2011-06-28 19:17:19 <BlueMatt> nor do I think others will either
3501 2011-06-28 19:18:02 <lfm> oh is it like a whole separate exe then?
3502 2011-06-28 19:18:38 <b4epoche> yes, and not sure it's even worth the fork...
3503 2011-06-28 19:18:59 <b4epoche> Xcode project  (I left makefiles a long time ago)
3504 2011-06-28 19:19:32 <BlueMatt> as long as it doesnt effect the directory structure of the rest of the stuff, I couldnt care less
3505 2011-06-28 19:19:47 <BlueMatt> (and XCode project files and such are in their own directories and not base dir)
3506 2011-06-28 19:20:07 magn3ts has joined
3507 2011-06-28 19:20:16 <b4epoche> yea, I've kept it all separate
3508 2011-06-28 19:20:47 <b4epoche> did the 'git remote add origin git@github.com:ericmock/bitcoin.git'
3509 2011-06-28 19:21:17 <b4epoche> finished amazingly fast (and too quick to really have done anything)
3510 2011-06-28 19:21:27 <BlueMatt> it doesnt really do anything
3511 2011-06-28 19:21:36 <BlueMatt> just git commit -a; git push -f origin master
3512 2011-06-28 19:21:40 <b4epoche> okay, I thought it might just be prep work
3513 2011-06-28 19:21:42 <BlueMatt> that might take a second
3514 2011-06-28 19:22:13 <lfm> somewhere I had the impression you were looking to actually replace the wx stuff, like get rid of it. I missunderstood.
3515 2011-06-28 19:22:24 <b4epoche> wow, takes you right into vi for the message
3516 2011-06-28 19:22:46 <BlueMatt> lfm: why would we do that? then how would we build for linux/win?
3517 2011-06-28 19:22:58 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well it takes you into edit...so whatever the default is
3518 2011-06-28 19:23:18 <b4epoche> him…  looks like I need a public key?
3519 2011-06-28 19:23:31 <BlueMatt> oh, yea, you need to upload your ssh public key to github...
3520 2011-06-28 19:23:32 anddam has joined
3521 2011-06-28 19:23:35 <anddam> hi
3522 2011-06-28 19:23:53 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: in account settings on github, under ssh public keys...
3523 2011-06-28 19:23:54 <lfm> why? cuz everyone hates it? It doesnt work on Linux?
3524 2011-06-28 19:23:54 <pklaus> You need to assign it to your github account on https://github.com/account/ssh
3525 2011-06-28 19:24:17 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: http://help.github.com/mac-set-up-git/
3526 2011-06-28 19:24:27 Incitatus has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3527 2011-06-28 19:24:46 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: look at 1-4 under ssh keys
3528 2011-06-28 19:25:01 Incitatus has joined
3529 2011-06-28 19:25:08 <anddam> github is a great service indeed
3530 2011-06-28 19:25:19 <anddam> UI and all
3531 2011-06-28 19:25:31 Sedra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3532 2011-06-28 19:25:50 VastLite has joined
3533 2011-06-28 19:26:04 <BlueMatt> ok, Im sorry, but google+ is (mostly) pointless as hell
3534 2011-06-28 19:27:14 pklaus has left ()
3535 2011-06-28 19:27:20 IncitatusOnWater has joined
3536 2011-06-28 19:27:44 mathias_ has joined
3537 2011-06-28 19:28:02 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3538 2011-06-28 19:28:08 <mathias_> Alright, I still got a stuck transaction that did not get send out to the network - any ideas on what I can do? I deleted the transaction in the wallet.dat but my balance is not adjusting. Anyone familar with the official gui code in here?
3539 2011-06-28 19:29:04 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3540 2011-06-28 19:29:23 Sedra has joined
3541 2011-06-28 19:29:27 <BlueMatt> mathias_: and how did you get this transaction stuck?
3542 2011-06-28 19:29:45 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Internet disconnected the second i hit "send"
3543 2011-06-28 19:30:14 <BlueMatt> mathias_: oh, then just let the wallet sit with the transaction for a while, it will be resent automatically
3544 2011-06-28 19:30:16 VastLite has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3545 2011-06-28 19:30:22 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Can I trigger it somehow?
3546 2011-06-28 19:30:28 <BlueMatt> sadly not
3547 2011-06-28 19:30:41 <mathias_> do I have to tinker with the source? :|
3548 2011-06-28 19:30:52 <BlueMatt> mathias_: is the transaction in the list at bitcoincharts.com?
3549 2011-06-28 19:31:01 <mathias_> No, its not, sadly
3550 2011-06-28 19:31:09 <mathias_> I waited 12h already
3551 2011-06-28 19:31:21 <BlueMatt> hm, should have resent by now...
3552 2011-06-28 19:31:34 <mathias_> I dumped the wallet and deleted the transaction
3553 2011-06-28 19:31:42 <BlueMatt> oh, well then of course it hasnt...
3554 2011-06-28 19:31:46 <mathias_> But the wallet is not adjusting
3555 2011-06-28 19:31:52 <mathias_> No, I did that just now
3556 2011-06-28 19:31:57 <BlueMatt> have you tried -rescan?
3557 2011-06-28 19:32:08 <b4epoche> sorry BlueMatt didn't know you were stepping me through that part…  anyway, I think it committed
3558 2011-06-28 19:32:36 <BlueMatt> whats your github account?
3559 2011-06-28 19:32:40 <b4epoche> ericmock
3560 2011-06-28 19:33:10 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what's google+ ?
3561 2011-06-28 19:33:17 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: their new social crap
3562 2011-06-28 19:33:25 <jrmithdobbs> oh d/c
3563 2011-06-28 19:33:50 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/28/google-launches-all-out-social-networking-assault-with-google/
3564 2011-06-28 19:33:50 <jrmithdobbs> only reason i even have a facebook account is so a couple of my friends and most of my family would stfu
3565 2011-06-28 19:33:53 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3566 2011-06-28 19:33:59 <b4epoche> so, BlueMatt, are you really interested in CS or just programming?
3567 2011-06-28 19:34:16 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what do you mean?
3568 2011-06-28 19:34:22 <jrmithdobbs> exactly what he said?
3569 2011-06-28 19:34:26 <b4epoche> yea
3570 2011-06-28 19:34:37 <BlueMatt> interested in cs, just seemed like a really random question
3571 2011-06-28 19:34:41 <b4epoche> I'm sure you know CS != programming
3572 2011-06-28 19:34:46 Donald__ has joined
3573 2011-06-28 19:34:51 <BlueMatt> yea, but Im interested in cs
3574 2011-06-28 19:34:53 <nhodges> coin cart v0.01a is done http://bitcoinbodega.com time to make an admin panel
3575 2011-06-28 19:35:17 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: oh, you did this in an entirely different folder than bitcoin?
3576 2011-06-28 19:35:33 <b4epoche> okay…  because I think people who like programming and are pretty good at it should probably major in something else
3577 2011-06-28 19:35:42 <b4epoche> unless they are /really/ interested in CS
3578 2011-06-28 19:35:50 <BlueMatt> no, thats not me
3579 2011-06-28 19:36:21 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: your logic has a hole
3580 2011-06-28 19:36:27 <b4epoche> well, that's the OSX stuff in /my/ bitcoin folder
3581 2011-06-28 19:36:33 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: at least in the US (and I heard slowly most of europe)
3582 2011-06-28 19:36:35 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3583 2011-06-28 19:36:37 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: you mean 'whole'?
3584 2011-06-28 19:36:50 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: most CS programs ARE actually "programming" programs
3585 2011-06-28 19:36:56 huk has joined
3586 2011-06-28 19:36:57 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: no i meant hole ;p
3587 2011-06-28 19:37:27 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: oh, then can you push the whole bitcoin folder instead?
3588 2011-06-28 19:37:35 stuhood has left ()
3589 2011-06-28 19:37:43 <b4epoche> yea, yea…  but I've seen a few kids make the mistake since CS is still usually more math/logic/etc than programming
3590 2011-06-28 19:37:58 <jrmithdobbs> anything but a masters (with a few exceptions from certain programs) in CS is a basically a java business programming certificate these days :(
3591 2011-06-28 19:38:06 <BlueMatt> yea, thats absolutely what I prefer
3592 2011-06-28 19:38:09 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Yeah, I tried rescan after i deleted the transaction - is that instant?
3593 2011-06-28 19:38:17 <mathias_> Or do i have to keep the client open for a long time?
3594 2011-06-28 19:38:27 <BlueMatt> mathias_: by the time the ui is open, its done
3595 2011-06-28 19:38:40 <BlueMatt> mathias_: are you sure the balance is wrong?
3596 2011-06-28 19:38:40 <mathias_> The it didnt help :\
3597 2011-06-28 19:38:55 <mathias_> Well the transaction was for all my btcs, so i have 0 at the moment :)
3598 2011-06-28 19:39:15 topace has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3599 2011-06-28 19:39:17 <BlueMatt> oh...
3600 2011-06-28 19:39:18 <lfm> so its right
3601 2011-06-28 19:40:43 topace has joined
3602 2011-06-28 19:40:50 <mathias_> Anything else I can do now?
3603 2011-06-28 19:41:09 bucky has joined
3604 2011-06-28 19:41:14 <BlueMatt> wait, so you made a tx for all your btc to another wallet, disconnected before it transmitted, realized it didnt transmit, reconnected, waited a while, it still didnt transmit, you opened up your wallet and removed the transaction (how?), now your client shows 0 balance, but doesnt have the transaction which send all the btc?
3605 2011-06-28 19:41:16 bucky has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3606 2011-06-28 19:41:34 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Yes, exactly
3607 2011-06-28 19:41:40 <midnightmagic> that's horrible
3608 2011-06-28 19:41:42 <mathias_> I made backups tho.
3609 2011-06-28 19:41:48 scott`_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3610 2011-06-28 19:41:52 <BlueMatt> that makes little sense
3611 2011-06-28 19:42:00 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: http://www.cse.psu.edu/curriculum/cs/cs-ug-handbooks/cmpsc2010#Degreerequirements  see page 10-
3612 2011-06-28 19:42:01 <mathias_> Why?
3613 2011-06-28 19:42:13 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3614 2011-06-28 19:42:29 <b4epoche> I'm interested (seriously) if you think that's a 'programming' degree?
3615 2011-06-28 19:42:31 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3616 2011-06-28 19:43:01 * b4epoche doesn't have a great impression of CS here so I assume it basically is
3617 2011-06-28 19:43:02 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: purdue is one of the exceptions (along with berkley, umich, mit, *maybe* stanford depending on elective choices)
3618 2011-06-28 19:43:05 scott` has joined
3619 2011-06-28 19:43:23 <b4epoche> psu != purdue ;-)
3620 2011-06-28 19:43:31 scott` is now known as Guest93743
3621 2011-06-28 19:43:38 <jrmithdobbs> oh penn state
3622 2011-06-28 19:43:45 <gmaxwell> If it doesn't have the txn why would the balance be zero?
3623 2011-06-28 19:43:46 <jrmithdobbs> not familiar with their program ;p
3624 2011-06-28 19:43:51 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  well you got both my alma maters on that 'real' CS list
3625 2011-06-28 19:43:51 <midnightmagic> that's a lot of physics. What's FYS?
3626 2011-06-28 19:44:02 <b4epoche> Freshman Year Seminar
3627 2011-06-28 19:44:06 <b4epoche> filler crap
3628 2011-06-28 19:44:14 <b4epoche> to make sure you're adjusting okay
3629 2011-06-28 19:44:26 <midnightmagic> GA/GH/GS?
3630 2011-06-28 19:44:28 IncitatusOnWater has joined
3631 2011-06-28 19:44:31 <b4epoche> I was surprised to see all the phys requirements
3632 2011-06-28 19:44:47 <b4epoche> general arts/humanities/social science
3633 2011-06-28 19:44:47 <midnightmagic> sometimes kids have a rough time adjusting and don't realise it.
3634 2011-06-28 19:45:04 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: UT's cs program isn't bad either, not on the same level as the ones i named tho, and i've heard argument that brown belongs on the list ;p
3635 2011-06-28 19:45:08 <b4epoche> yea, I know…  the FYS are a good thing
3636 2011-06-28 19:45:12 ThomasV has joined
3637 2011-06-28 19:45:14 <jrmithdobbs> still. that's a sadly small list
3638 2011-06-28 19:45:24 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  CMU?
3639 2011-06-28 19:45:24 <midnightmagic> that's a pretty small list.
3640 2011-06-28 19:45:42 Donald__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3641 2011-06-28 19:45:42 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: cs programs are in a pretty sorry state :(
3642 2011-06-28 19:45:56 <b4epoche> I don't think it's just CS programs...
3643 2011-06-28 19:46:00 <jrmithdobbs> it's not
3644 2011-06-28 19:46:04 <jrmithdobbs> they're just the ones i notice ;p
3645 2011-06-28 19:46:16 <midnightmagic> not everywhere. the CS courseload in some Canadian universities are okay.
3646 2011-06-28 19:46:26 <jrmithdobbs> it's the expanding control of corp interest in the .edu infrastructure :(
3647 2011-06-28 19:46:26 <mathias_> BlueMatt: I tried to delete the transaction because it took so long
3648 2011-06-28 19:46:33 * b4epoche teaches a junior-level design class and spends 1/3 of the class getting them to take things apart
3649 2011-06-28 19:46:37 <mathias_> BlueMatt: What else can I do anyways?
3650 2011-06-28 19:46:52 <midnightmagic> jesus..  "Health and Physical Activity"
3651 2011-06-28 19:46:56 <jrmithdobbs> i mean, watching the ivory tower fall is hilarious as someone who was never part of it, but at least I understood it's benefit to society and that it's a bad thing :(
3652 2011-06-28 19:47:06 <BlueMatt> mathias_: frankly, I have no clue whats going on with your wallet, how did you remove the transaction?
3653 2011-06-28 19:47:06 <midnightmagic> they're forcing you to pay for P.E.
3654 2011-06-28 19:47:13 <mathias_> BlueMatt: The client obv. does not resend it
3655 2011-06-28 19:47:18 <lfm> b4epochehow many of em wear helmets?
3656 2011-06-28 19:47:20 <b4epoche> midnightmagic:  PSU is like the only uni in the US (world?) that still requires PE
3657 2011-06-28 19:47:28 <BlueMatt> mathias_: no, the client does resend it, I have no idea why your client didnt
3658 2011-06-28 19:47:32 brooss has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3659 2011-06-28 19:47:35 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3660 2011-06-28 19:47:39 <midnightmagic> oh.. "Suggested Courses"
3661 2011-06-28 19:47:42 <mathias_> BlueMatt: I dumped it with db4.8_dump, deleted the transaction after I got the id with bitcointools, then compiled it again
3662 2011-06-28 19:47:49 <mathias_> BlueMatt: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19207.msg260334#msg260334
3663 2011-06-28 19:47:51 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: and to answer, not familiar with cmu's program either
3664 2011-06-28 19:48:04 <vegard> physical education as part of a computer science program? LOL
3665 2011-06-28 19:48:06 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
3666 2011-06-28 19:48:29 <b4epoche> vegard:  it's required for all majors
3667 2011-06-28 19:48:35 <BlueMatt> mathias_: oh, you removed the fee and it didnt relay...of course
3668 2011-06-28 19:48:42 <b4epoche> basically keeps a bunch of people around here employed
3669 2011-06-28 19:48:48 <b4epoche> hard to get rid of it
3670 2011-06-28 19:48:48 <lfm> teach the the correct end of a soldering iron to hold onto?
3671 2011-06-28 19:49:00 num1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3672 2011-06-28 19:49:01 <b4epoche> lfm:  yea, it's gotten to that
3673 2011-06-28 19:49:13 <BlueMatt> lfm: getting you in enough shape to be able to get out of your chair in this case
3674 2011-06-28 19:49:21 * b4epoche is surprised to see a foreign language requirement for CS
3675 2011-06-28 19:49:26 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: is CMPEN 331 os/system design?
3676 2011-06-28 19:49:42 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: on that psu list
3677 2011-06-28 19:49:44 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3678 2011-06-28 19:50:14 <jrmithdobbs> oh no that cmpsc and is required, so good, that doesn't look like a bad program either
3679 2011-06-28 19:50:18 <b4epoche> http://www.cse.psu.edu/curriculum/courses/CMPEN331ABETsyllabus.pdf
3680 2011-06-28 19:50:26 <jrmithdobbs> erm cmpsc 465
3681 2011-06-28 19:50:35 <BlueMatt> mathias_: well, I would have to take a closer look at the wallet, its not in dbdump.py --wallet-tx, right?
3682 2011-06-28 19:50:37 <jrmithdobbs> 473
3683 2011-06-28 19:50:39 <jrmithdobbs> w/e
3684 2011-06-28 19:51:03 skeledrew has joined
3685 2011-06-28 19:51:09 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: it's weird to me that data structures & algos is so late in that program, but meh
3686 2011-06-28 19:51:15 <jrmithdobbs> at least it's there!
3687 2011-06-28 19:51:26 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3688 2011-06-28 19:51:57 <b4epoche> I think we then agree that all majors (in engineering anyway) are turning into training programs
3689 2011-06-28 19:52:08 <mathias_> BlueMatt: You mean --wallet-tx on the "fixed" wallet.dat?
3690 2011-06-28 19:52:12 <b4epoche> the gain on the feedback from industry is far too high
3691 2011-06-28 19:52:14 <BlueMatt> mathias_: yea
3692 2011-06-28 19:52:20 <mathias_> no idea, will try that.
3693 2011-06-28 19:52:28 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: ya, real academics doesn't start until the masters programs most places these days
3694 2011-06-28 19:52:36 <jrmithdobbs> it's sad
3695 2011-06-28 19:52:49 <b4epoche> yes, and then US undergrads aren't prepared at all...
3696 2011-06-28 19:53:02 <b4epoche> for grad school
3697 2011-06-28 19:53:27 glitch-mod has joined
3698 2011-06-28 19:53:28 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  I take it you're at UT-Austin…  they got some good computational mechanics people there
3699 2011-06-28 19:53:32 <BlueMatt> well its not strictly the unis fault, they are getting students woefully unprepared with basic knowledge out of high schools
3700 2011-06-28 19:53:41 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: no i'm at work ;p
3701 2011-06-28 19:53:46 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: but i live in austin
3702 2011-06-28 19:54:06 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  I don't think that's really the case
3703 2011-06-28 19:54:13 Guest93743 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3704 2011-06-28 19:54:17 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: i have some odd opinions considering i never even started an undergrad program, eh?
3705 2011-06-28 19:54:34 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: thought about it several times and because of the above conclusions decided it wasn't worth my money. lol
3706 2011-06-28 19:54:36 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well, ok, its still their fault, but students coming out of hs are just as unprepared as those coming out of college
3707 2011-06-28 19:54:43 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  you should talk to Optimo more...
3708 2011-06-28 19:55:10 <b4epoche> the problem is that most students view college as a barrier to the rest of their life.
3709 2011-06-28 19:55:29 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3710 2011-06-28 19:55:31 <jrmithdobbs> a hurdle to get over instead of a challenge to work through
3711 2011-06-28 19:55:33 <jrmithdobbs> so to speak
3712 2011-06-28 19:55:37 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3713 2011-06-28 19:55:44 <b4epoche> and most just aren't interested in whatever they're studying
3714 2011-06-28 19:55:50 peck has joined
3715 2011-06-28 19:55:53 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  bingo!
3716 2011-06-28 19:56:16 <b4epoche> but some are…  and that's what keeps me optimistic
3717 2011-06-28 19:56:36 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: i regret not having gone (wont bore you with the details, short version: was on track for full ride, family crap, never happened ;p)
3718 2011-06-28 19:56:51 * b4epoche thinks that you really only need like 1 in 100 graduates to be good to make a difference
3719 2011-06-28 19:57:01 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r83d0672073b8 mining-proxy/htdocs/models/pool.inc.php: Fix incorrect join when refreshing pool models http://tinyurl.com/3uvskuj
3720 2011-06-28 19:57:13 <jrmithdobbs> and at this point, while I would *love* to actually go, it's a huge time/money investment and if i went the cs-route i'd come out making less and with more debt
3721 2011-06-28 19:57:15 phatsphere has joined
3722 2011-06-28 19:57:36 <b4epoche> personally, I feel like I just got really lucky…  I love to learn stuff.  I never had any early ambition to even go to college
3723 2011-06-28 19:57:48 <b4epoche> no one in my family had a degree.
3724 2011-06-28 19:58:10 <b4epoche> I liked learning, did well, and they never kicked me out…  hence my job
3725 2011-06-28 19:58:17 <BlueMatt> whether you have the ambition or not, college is important in this world not because you learn a ton there ,but because it means easier to get a job in the future (typically)
3726 2011-06-28 19:58:18 <jrmithdobbs> i've been toying with the notion of going for a pure math degree recently
3727 2011-06-28 19:58:27 <midnightmagic> universities aren't really for job training anyway
3728 2011-06-28 19:58:36 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: very true
3729 2011-06-28 19:58:43 <jrmithdobbs> because the quality of the program isn't quite as important there and math departments haven't been infested by corps nearly as much ;p
3730 2011-06-28 19:58:48 <b4epoche> midnightmagic:  that's what we're saying…  they are turning into that
3731 2011-06-28 19:58:50 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Maybe I didnt delete enough transactions, I will try again I guess
3732 2011-06-28 19:58:50 <sipa> i know lots of people who went to do a job where they absolutely didn't need anything they learned at university for
3733 2011-06-28 19:59:05 <BlueMatt> mathias_: just delete them all and -rescan
3734 2011-06-28 19:59:12 <BlueMatt> (assuming that is the only one without confirmations)
3735 2011-06-28 19:59:15 <b4epoche> sipa:  that's probably the usual case
3736 2011-06-28 19:59:18 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya and that's just dumb
3737 2011-06-28 19:59:22 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3738 2011-06-28 19:59:41 <b4epoche> in fact, I worked at a Ford factor as an intern…  basically just project management.
3739 2011-06-28 19:59:46 <midnightmagic> sipa: There isn't a single university grad I've ever worked with where their education didn't make them better, smarter, and more capable at whatever they did.
3740 2011-06-28 20:00:11 <b4epoche> midnightmagic:  that is true but in a subtle way
3741 2011-06-28 20:00:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: what i love are the paper cs grads from crappy schools who end up doing tech support ;p
3742 2011-06-28 20:00:19 darbsllim has joined
3743 2011-06-28 20:00:22 <midnightmagic> sipa: But then, this is Canada, so my idea of what a University degree is is a bit different..
3744 2011-06-28 20:00:29 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i've met so many.
3745 2011-06-28 20:00:37 <b4epoche> I basically start every semester telling the students that all I'm really trying to do is build their 'engineering intuition'
3746 2011-06-28 20:00:55 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea "cs" at a lot of "uni"s is just intro to how to turn a computer on
3747 2011-06-28 20:01:13 <sipa> cs here = software engineering
3748 2011-06-28 20:01:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya well, if you think cs programs are bad
3749 2011-06-28 20:01:18 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3750 2011-06-28 20:01:25 <sipa> mostly
3751 2011-06-28 20:01:28 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: MIS/CIS programs are worse
3752 2011-06-28 20:01:34 Clipse has joined
3753 2011-06-28 20:01:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i literally throw resumes away when interviewing people that have either of those degrees.
3754 2011-06-28 20:01:57 <jrmithdobbs> (I do IT stuff, if you haven't caught that.)
3755 2011-06-28 20:02:04 grbgout has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3756 2011-06-28 20:02:16 o_0oo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3757 2011-06-28 20:02:21 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
3758 2011-06-28 20:02:47 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  PSU had the brilliant forsight to make an entire College of IST
3759 2011-06-28 20:02:50 Breign has joined
3760 2011-06-28 20:02:52 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea, there are a ton of uni programs that are just as good as...nothing
3761 2011-06-28 20:03:14 <b4epoche> my brother was an English major.
3762 2011-06-28 20:03:16 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: ist?
3763 2011-06-28 20:03:26 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: lol
3764 2011-06-28 20:03:28 <b4epoche> Info Sci & Tech
3765 2011-06-28 20:03:35 neversleep has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3766 2011-06-28 20:03:48 <jrmithdobbs> meh, my coworker is an english major, first one i've ever met not flipping burgers
3767 2011-06-28 20:03:51 <jrmithdobbs> lol
3768 2011-06-28 20:03:54 <b4epoche> http://ist.psu.edu/
3769 2011-06-28 20:03:56 <jrmithdobbs> was shocked to find out
3770 2011-06-28 20:04:03 lumos has joined
3771 2011-06-28 20:04:03 micha_ has joined
3772 2011-06-28 20:04:09 <b4epoche> the building is the best part…  it's also a bridge
3773 2011-06-28 20:04:31 <b4epoche> my bro works at Nat. Inst. of Justice (part of DOJ)
3774 2011-06-28 20:04:45 <b4epoche> but sold vacuum cleaners for a couple years ;-)
3775 2011-06-28 20:05:37 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Thanks, it worked :)
3776 2011-06-28 20:05:44 <mathias_> A "resend" button would really help tho :\
3777 2011-06-28 20:06:03 <BlueMatt> mathias_: well it was resending, but you didnt have a fee so it wont go through...period
3778 2011-06-28 20:06:17 <BlueMatt> hence why the client doesnt have a "override fee" button
3779 2011-06-28 20:06:28 <mathias_> Hu?
3780 2011-06-28 20:06:33 <BlueMatt> because no matter how hard you try, it will never go through...
3781 2011-06-28 20:06:44 <BlueMatt> mathias_: didnt you say you had force the fee to not pay?
3782 2011-06-28 20:06:44 <mathias_> I waited 12h before tampering with the wallet
3783 2011-06-28 20:06:49 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3784 2011-06-28 20:06:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: google+ doesn't look awful
3785 2011-06-28 20:07:03 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: just looks like a complete facebook re-implementation, tbqh
3786 2011-06-28 20:07:13 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yep, but why?
3787 2011-06-28 20:07:20 <jrmithdobbs> couldn't answer that
3788 2011-06-28 20:07:21 micha__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3789 2011-06-28 20:07:31 <jrmithdobbs> i trust google (slightly) more with my personal data though
3790 2011-06-28 20:07:31 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3791 2011-06-28 20:07:47 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: its missing a ton of things, and I would prefer to use google+ than fb, but its missing a ton of things that fb has
3792 2011-06-28 20:07:56 <BlueMatt> mathias_: didnt you say you used a modified client to force no fee?
3793 2011-06-28 20:08:02 lyspooner has joined
3794 2011-06-28 20:08:21 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Nope
3795 2011-06-28 20:08:26 <mathias_> Sorry, did I?
3796 2011-06-28 20:08:32 <BlueMatt> mathias_: oh, well then I have no idea what was going on there
3797 2011-06-28 20:08:33 <mathias_> Iam not a native speaker, maybe I did say it
3798 2011-06-28 20:08:38 <BlueMatt> mathias_: well I thought it was in the thread you linked
3799 2011-06-28 20:08:45 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  how do I do another commit?
3800 2011-06-28 20:09:04 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  re Facebook, makes me think of South Park episode
3801 2011-06-28 20:09:14 MC1984 has joined
3802 2011-06-28 20:09:29 <mathias_> BlueMatt: Yeah, thats was just to show you how I did delete the transaction, I did not force "no fee" and Iam using the offical client
3803 2011-06-28 20:09:40 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well in this case its easier to just start over rm -rf ./.git; cd ..; git init; git commit -a; git remote add origin git@...; git push -f
3804 2011-06-28 20:11:06 <b4epoche> but that trashes my local vc...
3805 2011-06-28 20:11:14 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3806 2011-06-28 20:11:20 kW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3807 2011-06-28 20:11:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r8b35cae23520 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/ (plugin.py test.py): Gatekeeper: change the gate to be voice rather than join. http://tinyurl.com/5s8wqwu
3808 2011-06-28 20:11:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well you might google around, I dont know how git would handle switching to a different super-dir
3809 2011-06-28 20:11:57 caedes has joined
3810 2011-06-28 20:11:57 caedes has quit (Changing host)
3811 2011-06-28 20:11:57 caedes has joined
3812 2011-06-28 20:12:20 <b4epoche> well, I just moved 'src' into that directory
3813 2011-06-28 20:12:34 aristidesfl has joined
3814 2011-06-28 20:12:47 <b4epoche> what would you like the git directory structure to look like?
3815 2011-06-28 20:12:50 <BlueMatt> it would be *much* nicer if you can keep the mac stuff in a sub-dir
3816 2011-06-28 20:13:02 <b4epoche> same as bitcoin/bitcoin + MacBitcoin folder?
3817 2011-06-28 20:13:18 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin then add src/cocoa
3818 2011-06-28 20:13:23 <BlueMatt> then in that folder do what you want
3819 2011-06-28 20:14:22 Pinion has joined
3820 2011-06-28 20:15:01 pusle has joined
3821 2011-06-28 20:15:02 <BlueMatt> also, it would be nice if you could remove the binary libs and just have instructions for how to build those (ie update docs/build-osx.txt if appropriate)
3822 2011-06-28 20:19:26 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3823 2011-06-28 20:20:10 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: actually, munlock is redundant...it can be removed
3824 2011-06-28 20:21:40 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
3825 2011-06-28 20:22:15 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
3826 2011-06-28 20:22:50 dukeleto has joined
3827 2011-06-28 20:23:55 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3828 2011-06-28 20:25:49 Mononofu has left ()
3829 2011-06-28 20:26:32 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3830 2011-06-28 20:26:43 pklaus has joined
3831 2011-06-28 20:27:15 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3832 2011-06-28 20:27:37 sytse has joined
3833 2011-06-28 20:28:55 Taveren93HGK has joined
3834 2011-06-28 20:29:02 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3835 2011-06-28 20:29:52 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: how is munlock implicit?  is it hidden inside the C++ allocator somewhere?
3836 2011-06-28 20:31:15 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: when memory get unmapped, munlock is implicit
3837 2011-06-28 20:31:33 <BlueMatt> correct?
3838 2011-06-28 20:31:56 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: freeing memory does not necessarily imply the memory got unmapped
3839 2011-06-28 20:32:20 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: could just be recycled within the C++ allocator / libc
3840 2011-06-28 20:33:04 sammal has joined
3841 2011-06-28 20:33:07 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3842 2011-06-28 20:33:13 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: oh god Im stupid...anyway, whats wrong with calling munlock on unlocked memory?
3843 2011-06-28 20:33:22 <BlueMatt> it will error, but it wont crash
3844 2011-06-28 20:33:34 <BlueMatt> and its not like we want to handle the error anyway?
3845 2011-06-28 20:34:03 <sipa> btw: our mlock()ed things are all fairly small
3846 2011-06-28 20:34:15 <sipa> what if there are two mlocked things on the same vm page
3847 2011-06-28 20:34:23 <MrSam> hmm, was there a patch out there that fixes stale blocks when mining ?
3848 2011-06-28 20:34:31 <sipa> MrSam: you cannot fix those
3849 2011-06-28 20:34:39 <MrSam> hmm
3850 2011-06-28 20:34:46 <MrSam> maybe a pushpool patch then
3851 2011-06-28 20:34:56 TheZimm has joined
3852 2011-06-28 20:35:03 <sipa> if you do an munlock() on something that's mlock()ed twice, it gets unlocked, right?
3853 2011-06-28 20:35:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: no
3854 2011-06-28 20:35:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: you have to munlock as many times (though I have no clue about windows)
3855 2011-06-28 20:35:45 <vegard> that sounds wrong.
3856 2011-06-28 20:35:50 <vegard> @BlueMatt
3857 2011-06-28 20:35:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: really, it keeps a counter per page?
3858 2011-06-28 20:37:04 <BlueMatt> hm, well it said that on the man page I found via google, but the one on my machine doesnt say that
3859 2011-06-28 20:37:08 <BlueMatt> so I suppose thats old
3860 2011-06-28 20:37:58 <BlueMatt> actually, the one on my machine specifically disagrees
3861 2011-06-28 20:38:11 <BlueMatt> oh, lol thats an osx manpage I found on google
3862 2011-06-28 20:38:18 <ius> BlueMatt: Fixed #340 for you (now you can keep your interfaces up ;)) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/362
3863 2011-06-28 20:38:21 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3864 2011-06-28 20:38:32 karnac has joined
3865 2011-06-28 20:38:51 <BlueMatt> ius: ah, so it was as a result of the commit I guessed, thanks
3866 2011-06-28 20:38:57 f33x has joined
3867 2011-06-28 20:39:20 <sipa> ius: was that the segfault?
3868 2011-06-28 20:39:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea
3869 2011-06-28 20:39:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats the nanotube-reported segfault with no interfaces up
3870 2011-06-28 20:40:18 kreal- has joined
3871 2011-06-28 20:40:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3872 2011-06-28 20:40:51 <sipa> yup, and it's my fault (again)
3873 2011-06-28 20:41:00 * sipa agrees more and more we need Wall :)
3874 2011-06-28 20:41:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, thats my fault from the fix for windows cpu usage wasnt it?
3875 2011-06-28 20:41:16 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
3876 2011-06-28 20:41:17 <jrmithdobbs> and -pedantic ;p
3877 2011-06-28 20:41:19 <BlueMatt> well indirectly my fault, but yea
3878 2011-06-28 20:41:30 TheZimm has joined
3879 2011-06-28 20:41:49 bitanarchy has joined
3880 2011-06-28 20:41:59 mologie has joined
3881 2011-06-28 20:41:59 kW_ has joined
3882 2011-06-28 20:42:06 <BlueMatt> oh, nope thats sipa's fault, nvm
3883 2011-06-28 20:42:15 <BlueMatt> ;)
3884 2011-06-28 20:42:21 <bitanarchy> my bitcoin client again refuses to download blocks
3885 2011-06-28 20:42:32 <bitanarchy> with 11 connections
3886 2011-06-28 20:43:04 Clipse has joined
3887 2011-06-28 20:43:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: it would appear two mlock()s in one page will get unlocked in one munlock() as "Under Linux, mlock() and munlock() automatically round addr down to the nearest page boundary.  However, POSIX.1-2001 allows an implementation to require that addr is page aligned, so portable applications should ensure this."
3888 2011-06-28 20:43:26 lightcode has joined
3889 2011-06-28 20:43:28 <HopsNBarley> jrmithdobbs, enjoyed your cs dept. comments.   i was lucky enough to go to purdue many moons ago.
3890 2011-06-28 20:43:55 <sipa> what is 'purdue' ?
3891 2011-06-28 20:44:04 <BlueMatt> a uni
3892 2011-06-28 20:44:09 <HopsNBarley> home of first cs dept.
3893 2011-06-28 20:44:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't see how that is related to keeping a counter or a flag per page
3894 2011-06-28 20:44:41 <sipa> but i would assume it's a flag
3895 2011-06-28 20:44:43 Stellar has joined
3896 2011-06-28 20:44:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: its not, I was misinformed about the counter thing
3897 2011-06-28 20:45:00 <BlueMatt> the counter thing is on osx, linux keeps a flag (like a sane os)
3898 2011-06-28 20:45:12 <sipa> where do you see that it does?
3899 2011-06-28 20:45:19 <BlueMatt> man mlock
3900 2011-06-28 20:45:49 <BlueMatt> and if you google man munlock, the first result is from an osx man page
3901 2011-06-28 20:46:00 <sipa> ic
3902 2011-06-28 20:46:03 <jrmithdobbs> my first result was from POSIX
3903 2011-06-28 20:46:04 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3904 2011-06-28 20:46:18 <sipa> well, in any case, it could be a (minor) problem
3905 2011-06-28 20:46:22 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: not man mlock, man munlock
3906 2011-06-28 20:46:24 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: http://www.manpagez.com/man/2/munlock/
3907 2011-06-28 20:46:27 <BlueMatt> is my result
3908 2011-06-28 20:46:36 <sipa> however, it's just fixing some holes in the leaky bucket
3909 2011-06-28 20:46:54 <sipa> the gui entered password strings can still leak like anything
3910 2011-06-28 20:46:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ah i did mlock because i knew it was the same man pag e;p
3911 2011-06-28 20:47:08 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well google doesnt know that ;)
3912 2011-06-28 20:47:12 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
3913 2011-06-28 20:47:41 genjix has joined
3914 2011-06-28 20:47:43 <jrmithdobbs> i'm not seeing mlock/munlock being treated as a mutex in my local man page on 10.6 so i don't think that's true any more
3915 2011-06-28 20:48:11 <b4epoche> Google+ looks like the next \/\/ /\ \/ E
3916 2011-06-28 20:48:13 <jrmithdobbs> oh wait, there it is
3917 2011-06-28 20:48:37 <jrmithdobbs> Unlike The Sun implementation, multiple mlock calls on the same address range require the corresponding number of munlock calls to actually unlock the pages, i.e.  mlock nests.
3918 2011-06-28 20:48:42 <BlueMatt> hm "If the len parameter is not a multiple of the page size, it will be rounded *up* to be so." emphasis mine...
3919 2011-06-28 20:48:43 <BlueMatt> up?
3920 2011-06-28 20:48:48 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Joerie de Gram master * recd3e72 / src/net.cpp : Fix connection failure debug output - http://bit.ly/ikPNfE
3921 2011-06-28 20:48:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r3a3eabb / src/net.cpp :
3922 2011-06-28 20:48:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #362 from ius/issue340
3923 2011-06-28 20:48:51 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Fix connection failure debug output - http://bit.ly/mGYKda
3924 2011-06-28 20:48:52 <jrmithdobbs> think it inherited that from freebsd btw so worth keeping in mind
3925 2011-06-28 20:49:03 traviscj has joined
3926 2011-06-28 20:49:07 <sivu> hmm
3927 2011-06-28 20:49:10 <BlueMatt> would that not mean that you would end up not mlocking the stuff you want
3928 2011-06-28 20:49:20 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it could yes
3929 2011-06-28 20:49:23 DrDeke has joined
3930 2011-06-28 20:49:31 <BlueMatt> whereas linux it "automatically round addr down"
3931 2011-06-28 20:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: whether mlock() requires page boundry alignment is impl definable according to posix
3932 2011-06-28 20:49:39 <BlueMatt> why the hell would they do that
3933 2011-06-28 20:49:45 <jrmithdobbs> and how it's handled when it doesn't
3934 2011-06-28 20:50:10 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: probably vm semantics under the hood make it much easier to do so
3935 2011-06-28 20:50:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: it just means: it locks all pages that contain (part of) the given memory range
3936 2011-06-28 20:50:11 <sivu> mtgox trade screen shows totally wrong ask amounts
3937 2011-06-28 20:50:12 <BlueMatt> yea man page here says you should make sure you are page-aligned
3938 2011-06-28 20:50:18 denisx has joined
3939 2011-06-28 20:50:20 <sivu> i mean ask prices
3940 2011-06-28 20:50:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: and they don't keep track of the actual addreses
3941 2011-06-28 20:50:26 <BlueMatt> sivu: ask on #mtgox
3942 2011-06-28 20:50:47 <denisx> I started today my own pool, if anybody wants to try or maybe use as an backup pool
3943 2011-06-28 20:50:50 <denisx> www.btcmp.com
3944 2011-06-28 20:50:52 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: writing actually-portable-code is fun, eh? ;p
3945 2011-06-28 20:50:55 mathias_ has left ()
3946 2011-06-28 20:51:00 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no shit
3947 2011-06-28 20:51:13 <sivu> bluematt, tried to search info about how to get voice on #mtgox (or #bitcoin-otc) but couldnt find any
3948 2011-06-28 20:51:21 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you should see what it takes to properly enumerate network interfaces portably
3949 2011-06-28 20:51:26 <BlueMatt> anyway, its fine on windows and linux, sorry mac users but fu, Im not gonna put in a ton of effort to fix this
3950 2011-06-28 20:51:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: portably AND semantically correct, i mean
3951 2011-06-28 20:51:52 <BlueMatt> sivu: I think you need a regged nick on #mtgox #bitcoin-otc you need to auth with gribble
3952 2011-06-28 20:51:53 <vegard> so you are using memalign() to allocate the memory, right?
3953 2011-06-28 20:52:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that needs fixing or shouldn't be pulled
3954 2011-06-28 20:52:02 <BlueMatt> sivu: but #bitocin-otc-foyer is fine too
3955 2011-06-28 20:52:03 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3956 2011-06-28 20:52:14 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it affects more than just osx, like I said, I'm pretty sure that's a *bsd inheritence
3957 2011-06-28 20:52:15 <sivu> bluematt, i have regged nick
3958 2011-06-28 20:52:16 Juffo-Wup has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3959 2011-06-28 20:52:23 <BlueMatt> sivu: then no idea
3960 2011-06-28 20:53:19 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ok, and we have...one *bsd user aside from osx?
3961 2011-06-28 20:53:26 DrDeke_ has joined
3962 2011-06-28 20:53:31 sabalaba has joined
3963 2011-06-28 20:53:31 Happy0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3964 2011-06-28 20:53:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that you know of
3965 2011-06-28 20:53:48 <jrmithdobbs> and letting keys gets swapped to disk isn't a "minor" issue
3966 2011-06-28 20:53:55 <sipa> it isn't
3967 2011-06-28 20:54:01 <BlueMatt> it is absolutely a minor issue
3968 2011-06-28 20:54:04 <sipa> but it's not solved otherwise either
3969 2011-06-28 20:54:10 <ius> mmf, think I've complained about it earlier, but why cant github cherrypick single commits.. merges kill commit messages, easy 'git show's and kittens
3970 2011-06-28 20:54:17 <sipa> since there are tons of other ways how keys can leak to disk
3971 2011-06-28 20:54:23 Astriks has joined
3972 2011-06-28 20:54:42 <BlueMatt> and a ton of other ways to get keys from non-disk
3973 2011-06-28 20:54:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: no reason to add code that's known to do it though
3974 2011-06-28 20:54:58 <ius> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/340 guess you may close that one now
3975 2011-06-28 20:55:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: have you looked at how openssl handles it for the bsd/osx case?
3976 2011-06-28 20:55:28 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3977 2011-06-28 20:55:29 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, afaict, there is no mlock in openssl...period, or atleast grep -r -n mlock . shows nothing
3978 2011-06-28 20:55:42 <jrmithdobbs> ya just noticed that
3979 2011-06-28 20:55:46 DrDeke has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3980 2011-06-28 20:57:31 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i'm looking for how to solve it, can't be the time
3981 2011-06-28 20:57:48 <BlueMatt> to solve it you need to do memalign
3982 2011-06-28 20:57:57 <jrmithdobbs> yes i mean an easy way
3983 2011-06-28 20:58:02 <sipa> openssl does do effort to cleanup memory with sensitive things at deallocation
3984 2011-06-28 20:58:09 <BlueMatt> afaict, nope, but if you can find them...
3985 2011-06-28 20:58:20 erus`_ has joined
3986 2011-06-28 20:58:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: speaking of which, it would be nice to do that ourselves, as we could very well lose key info in key.h
3987 2011-06-28 20:58:43 <BlueMatt> a whole lot more important than mlock
3988 2011-06-28 20:58:53 Happy0 has joined
3989 2011-06-28 20:59:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: secure_allocator already does that
3990 2011-06-28 20:59:20 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3991 2011-06-28 20:59:23 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3992 2011-06-28 20:59:23 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3993 2011-06-28 20:59:27 erus`_ is now known as erus`
3994 2011-06-28 20:59:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: do we never send privkeys to openssl that it copies?
3995 2011-06-28 20:59:42 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ah, it has to do with the mach stuff, there isn't memalign on osx either ;p
3996 2011-06-28 20:59:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: of course?
3997 2011-06-28 21:00:03 <sipa> but what openssl does is beyond our control
3998 2011-06-28 21:00:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: so secure_allocator wont do it
3999 2011-06-28 21:00:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: no its not, we can create our own functions for openssl to malloc
4000 2011-06-28 21:01:15 <BlueMatt> but its not on the priority list
4001 2011-06-28 21:01:28 <gmaxwell> kinda wish the wallet stuff was a seperat process.. could just mlockall it
4002 2011-06-28 21:01:30 <sipa> but openssl already cleans its own memory
4003 2011-06-28 21:01:42 <BlueMatt> I thought you just said it doesnt?
4004 2011-06-28 21:01:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: if you'll implement the memalign portion i can add the osx hacks ;p
4005 2011-06-28 21:01:56 <sipa> 22:56:27 < sipa> openssl does do effort to cleanup memory with sensitive things at deallocation
4006 2011-06-28 21:02:07 <BlueMatt> oh, I read does no effort
4007 2011-06-28 21:02:21 <BlueMatt> though they dont mlocking
4008 2011-06-28 21:02:35 <gmaxwell> Thats kinda busted.. why?
4009 2011-06-28 21:02:38 <sipa> damn, a double bitflip is enough to invert the meaning of an english sentence
4010 2011-06-28 21:02:43 <sipa> what kinda language is that!
4011 2011-06-28 21:02:44 <jrmithdobbs> probably because the do do go through that effort
4012 2011-06-28 21:02:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: what?
4013 2011-06-28 21:03:00 <jrmithdobbs> wow i fucked that up
4014 2011-06-28 21:03:02 <b4epoche> git help anyone?
4015 2011-06-28 21:03:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: the right double bitflip during signing will disclose your private key.
4016 2011-06-28 21:03:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: haha
4017 2011-06-28 21:03:22 <b4epoche> deleted ericmock/bitcoin
4018 2011-06-28 21:03:39 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: ask a question, dont ask to ask ;)
4019 2011-06-28 21:03:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: actually, there's a real easy fix for osx without having to memalign everything
4020 2011-06-28 21:04:03 <b4epoche> wait for it…  (dramatic pause)
4021 2011-06-28 21:04:04 <b4epoche> dssl:src ericmock$ git remote add origin git@github.com:ericmock/bitcoin.git
4022 2011-06-28 21:04:05 <b4epoche> fatal: remote origin already exists.
4023 2011-06-28 21:04:05 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: which is?
4024 2011-06-28 21:04:13 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: valloc() instead of malloc() the key memory
4025 2011-06-28 21:04:17 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: rm -rf .git
4026 2011-06-28 21:04:24 amiller has joined
4027 2011-06-28 21:04:30 <jrmithdobbs> The valloc() function allocates size bytes of memory and returns a pointer to the allocated memory.
4028 2011-06-28 21:04:33 <jrmithdobbs> The allocated memory is aligned on a page boundary.
4029 2011-06-28 21:04:36 <b4epoche> okay, I guess I must
4030 2011-06-28 21:04:40 <gmaxwell> Why can't I find people screaming about openssl not mlocking?
4031 2011-06-28 21:04:44 <gmaxwell> (on the internets)
4032 2011-06-28 21:04:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: dunno but there's no mlock/munlock in the code
4033 2011-06-28 21:05:03 <pklaus> or just change .git/config
4034 2011-06-28 21:05:12 Taveren93HGK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4035 2011-06-28 21:05:21 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: thats what memalign does (there is also a valloc on linux)
4036 2011-06-28 21:05:32 <gmaxwell> funny, I just find people from here complaining last month.
4037 2011-06-28 21:06:16 <pklaus> @b4epoche: deleting a remote __branch__ does not mean you removed the reference to the remote __repository__ from your local repo
4038 2011-06-28 21:06:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: because mlock is overhyped?
4039 2011-06-28 21:06:26 <gmaxwell> huh? since whne does memalign lock memory?
4040 2011-06-28 21:06:31 <gmaxwell> s/whne/when/
4041 2011-06-28 21:06:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but linux's memalign requires you to know the page boundry
4042 2011-06-28 21:06:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: valloc() doesn't so it's a real easy swap oput
4043 2011-06-28 21:06:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, it doesnt mlock, it just aligns it to page
4044 2011-06-28 21:06:51 <gmaxwell> oh oh, missed a comment.
4045 2011-06-28 21:07:19 <b4epoche> so, how do I re-initialize get?
4046 2011-06-28 21:07:29 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: git init (in the folder you want)
4047 2011-06-28 21:07:32 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: osx's mlock() rounds up to the nearest page boundry instead of down ;p
4048 2011-06-28 21:07:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: is the relation
4049 2011-06-28 21:07:47 <b4epoche> ah, right, thx
4050 2011-06-28 21:07:50 <jrmithdobbs> thx mach
4051 2011-06-28 21:07:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: mlock is overrated, finding your keys in swap sucks though, especially since the AES key schedule is so trivially discovered, and the curve parameters for ecc keys are obvious.
4052 2011-06-28 21:08:16 <jrmithdobbs> tbqh, might as well just not mlock() on osx and tell people to use encrypted swap
4053 2011-06-28 21:08:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but you finding keys in swap != an attacker being able to find them
4054 2011-06-28 21:08:49 <pklaus> @b4epoche did you remove the whole .git folder? then `git init`. Else you can just `git push origin master` (but as you deleted the __project__ on Github you cant).
4055 2011-06-28 21:08:59 <BlueMatt> well, Ill add a comment to describe this in where we mlock
4056 2011-06-28 21:09:10 scott` has joined
4057 2011-06-28 21:09:25 forever-d has joined
4058 2011-06-28 21:09:36 scott` is now known as Guest31243
4059 2011-06-28 21:09:39 <jrmithdobbs> but i know there are other posix impl that do similar and if you're mlock()ing you should be memalign/vallac'ing anyways
4060 2011-06-28 21:09:45 <denisx> spenden kann man hierhin: 19c4bA6qHLjnWgYQmS9VuqwHuNT6jR5Atz
4061 2011-06-28 21:09:46 <denisx> ;)
4062 2011-06-28 21:09:48 <jrmithdobbs> valloc
4063 2011-06-28 21:10:02 sanchaz is now known as shz
4064 2011-06-28 21:10:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Still, not mlocking fails the security regret test:  "If someone is compromised with this as a possible cause, will the world (with retrospective 20/20) call me an idiot"   but I'd missed that this was an osx issue.
4065 2011-06-28 21:10:18 shz is now known as sanchaz
4066 2011-06-28 21:10:45 <denisx> damn, fc
4067 2011-06-28 21:10:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, its a *bsd issue it appears
4068 2011-06-28 21:11:09 <jrmithdobbs> wait
4069 2011-06-28 21:11:12 <jrmithdobbs> you read this wrong
4070 2011-06-28 21:11:25 AgoristRadio has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4071 2011-06-28 21:11:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: also, there is a linux issue in that munlock() might unlock other keys if they overlap in pages
4072 2011-06-28 21:11:35 <jrmithdobbs> it rounds up on the *last* bit
4073 2011-06-28 21:11:45 <jrmithdobbs> so you're still garaunteed that the memory you want locked will be
4074 2011-06-28 21:11:52 <jrmithdobbs> err s/bit/page/
4075 2011-06-28 21:12:03 <jrmithdobbs> eg, it must begin and end on a page boundry
4076 2011-06-28 21:12:19 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4077 2011-06-28 21:12:36 <gmaxwell> fortunately I don't think bitcoin would currently have any overlapping mlocks.
4078 2011-06-28 21:12:38 <BlueMatt> oh, well that is unclear
4079 2011-06-28 21:12:43 dbasch has joined
4080 2011-06-28 21:12:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but its theoretically possible
4081 2011-06-28 21:12:54 dukeleto has joined
4082 2011-06-28 21:12:55 lumos has joined
4083 2011-06-28 21:13:18 agricocb has joined
4084 2011-06-28 21:13:18 Guest31243 has quit (Client Quit)
4085 2011-06-28 21:14:14 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the difference between linux and (every other posix impl just about) is that mlock() is required to *start* on a page boundry, you really need to go back and use memalign/valloc to be portable
4086 2011-06-28 21:14:35 <jrmithdobbs> on the latter
4087 2011-06-28 21:14:39 <pklaus> @b4epoche Does git work as you want it to? Do you need any further help?
4088 2011-06-28 21:14:40 <ius> Can anyone with sufficient permissions check out https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/325 ? Think we can close it
4089 2011-06-28 21:14:54 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: so its really never an issue for us then...well this was fruitful ;)
4090 2011-06-28 21:14:55 wardearia has joined
4091 2011-06-28 21:15:00 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4092 2011-06-28 21:15:04 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: except for every osx user
4093 2011-06-28 21:15:07 <gmaxwell> It wouldn't be too hard to make mlock,munlock wrappers that did page reference counting. Perhaps someone has done that already. Not an issue right now though.
4094 2011-06-28 21:15:27 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well it would still lock their keys right?
4095 2011-06-28 21:15:44 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: no
4096 2011-06-28 21:15:53 <BlueMatt> oh, I still hadnt read it
4097 2011-06-28 21:15:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: [EINVAL]           The address given is not page-aligned or the length is negative.
4098 2011-06-28 21:16:12 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  check ericmock/bitcoin now…  I think that's what you want
4099 2011-06-28 21:16:21 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: just mask out the address.
4100 2011-06-28 21:16:32 <BlueMatt> ok, well mac users will just have to lose...
4101 2011-06-28 21:16:34 <b4epoche> pklaus:  I think I got it, thanks
4102 2011-06-28 21:17:15 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: nice, mind if I rebase so that its right, then you can pull a workable version? (as it has to have all the previous bitocin commits and such)
4103 2011-06-28 21:17:19 darbsllim has quit ()
4104 2011-06-28 21:17:33 <sneak> https://coinpur.se
4105 2011-06-28 21:17:47 eao has joined
4106 2011-06-28 21:17:55 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  sure, walk me through it...
4107 2011-06-28 21:17:58 <b4epoche> rebase?
4108 2011-06-28 21:18:12 <b4epoche> updating to the latest trunk?
4109 2011-06-28 21:18:24 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well, currently you are not in a fork of bitcoin, but are instead on your own repo which happens to have the bitcoin code in it
4110 2011-06-28 21:18:28 <sipa> b4epoche: do a git fetch uptream; git rebase -i upstream/master
4111 2011-06-28 21:18:31 <BlueMatt> (and is marked as a fork on github, though its not really)
4112 2011-06-28 21:18:51 <b4epoche> wait sipa…  one person giving directions
4113 2011-06-28 21:19:02 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: git remote add upstream https://github.com/bitocin/bitcoin.git; then Im not entirely sure as a rebase will fail
4114 2011-06-28 21:19:05 <BlueMatt> 1 sec
4115 2011-06-28 21:19:17 dbasch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4116 2011-06-28 21:19:24 dbasch has joined
4117 2011-06-28 21:19:45 <sipa> b4epoche: ok, listen to BlueMatt, i'm not following the conversation that closely
4118 2011-06-28 21:19:45 <BlueMatt> actually, best bet is: move the cocoa folder out, git remote add...; git reset --hard upstream/master; readd the cocoa folder; git add src/cocoa/*; git commit -a; git push -f
4119 2011-06-28 21:19:46 <b4epoche> I don't care which 'one person' it is…  just getting info from multiple sources is always confusing ;-)
4120 2011-06-28 21:20:18 <BlueMatt> that will reset everything to the latest version from bitcoin/bitcoin then you recopy your stuff
4121 2011-06-28 21:20:33 <BlueMatt> (though make a backup of whatever changes you made)
4122 2011-06-28 21:20:37 <BlueMatt> or remember them
4123 2011-06-28 21:20:40 oozyburglar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4124 2011-06-28 21:20:45 da2ce7 has quit ()
4125 2011-06-28 21:21:00 <BlueMatt> then just make the commit message something like "Add cocoa native ui"
4126 2011-06-28 21:21:03 <b4epoche> can I just pull the latest repo, and do this in file system or will that confuse git?
4127 2011-06-28 21:21:35 <BlueMatt> the problem is when you try to rebase, git will try to readd whatever you did, that would include adding all the bitcoin source files
4128 2011-06-28 21:22:08 <BlueMatt> so, the best bet is just to redo whatever you had done
4129 2011-06-28 21:22:20 <BlueMatt> (I think you said there is just one or two minor changes to bitcoin source?)
4130 2011-06-28 21:22:44 <b4epoche> okay…  cocoa is out of src
4131 2011-06-28 21:23:12 <b4epoche> should I be in src when I get remote add?
4132 2011-06-28 21:23:13 <BlueMatt> now, remember what mods you did to bitcoin source tree (or actually you could possibly copy them out and it would work)
4133 2011-06-28 21:23:16 cryptocnt has joined
4134 2011-06-28 21:23:22 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter what dir you are in after you init
4135 2011-06-28 21:23:29 <BlueMatt> git is pretty smart when it comes to that
4136 2011-06-28 21:24:19 skeledrew has joined
4137 2011-06-28 21:24:40 xtalmath has joined
4138 2011-06-28 21:25:14 <b4epoche> git remote add git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git ?
4139 2011-06-28 21:25:25 <BlueMatt> no https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
4140 2011-06-28 21:25:36 <BlueMatt> git@... is only for people who can push to that repo
4141 2011-06-28 21:25:37 <b4epoche> ah
4142 2011-06-28 21:26:01 <b4epoche> should I have 'git init' 'd in src or bitcoin?
4143 2011-06-28 21:26:06 <BlueMatt> no
4144 2011-06-28 21:26:15 <BlueMatt> you only do that in the head of the tree
4145 2011-06-28 21:26:24 <BlueMatt> after that git will search up until it finds the git folder
4146 2011-06-28 21:26:28 <b4epoche> but I'm not sure what the head is
4147 2011-06-28 21:26:32 <b4epoche> bitcoin?
4148 2011-06-28 21:26:42 <BlueMatt> your head is the folder in which src sits
4149 2011-06-28 21:26:49 <b4epoche> ok
4150 2011-06-28 21:26:50 <BlueMatt> judging by your current repo
4151 2011-06-28 21:27:01 pklaus has left ()
4152 2011-06-28 21:27:24 elnato is now known as midget
4153 2011-06-28 21:27:31 midget is now known as elnato
4154 2011-06-28 21:27:33 <vegard> this is horrible. I'm trying to add unit tests for scripts. so script.o must be linked into the test binary. of course then it needs symbols that are defined in main.cpp. but if we link in main.o, then the test program starts the full client... joy!
4155 2011-06-28 21:27:40 <b4epoche> mirror?
4156 2011-06-28 21:27:52 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what?
4157 2011-06-28 21:28:03 <b4epoche> it's asking me for options
4158 2011-06-28 21:28:14 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what is asking you for options?
4159 2011-06-28 21:28:15 <b4epoche> fetch/mirror/track/master
4160 2011-06-28 21:28:22 <BlueMatt> what did you do?
4161 2011-06-28 21:28:25 <b4epoche> git remote add https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
4162 2011-06-28 21:28:36 <b4epoche> duh...
4163 2011-06-28 21:28:39 pusle has quit ()
4164 2011-06-28 21:28:41 <b4epoche> forget directory
4165 2011-06-28 21:28:51 <vegard> don't you need a name for the remote too?
4166 2011-06-28 21:28:53 <b4epoche> thought it was complaining about options
4167 2011-06-28 21:29:02 <BlueMatt> oh yea should be git remote add upstream ...
4168 2011-06-28 21:29:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: where is your memlocking going on? it's not in pull 352
4169 2011-06-28 21:29:31 <sipa> vegard: just by linking main.o ?
4170 2011-06-28 21:29:37 <b4epoche> and this will make an entire bitcoin/ ?
4171 2011-06-28 21:29:43 <jrmithdobbs> s/memlock/mlock/
4172 2011-06-28 21:29:46 <b4epoche> can I just grab src?
4173 2011-06-28 21:29:52 <vegard> sipa: yep, seems so.
4174 2011-06-28 21:29:56 <ius> b4epoche: Add the git:// url, probably a bit snappier than having http(s) inbetween
4175 2011-06-28 21:29:59 <sipa> that's strange
4176 2011-06-28 21:30:01 <ius> s/url/uri/
4177 2011-06-28 21:30:16 pirrr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4178 2011-06-28 21:31:01 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yea it is, there is some in 729d106c, but most is in 3ad5c11f
4179 2011-06-28 21:31:08 <BlueMatt> both are in pull 352
4180 2011-06-28 21:31:13 <b4epoche> okay, git remote add upstream https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git is done
4181 2011-06-28 21:31:22 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: now git fetch upstream
4182 2011-06-28 21:31:39 mologie has joined
4183 2011-06-28 21:31:43 <BlueMatt> then make sure you know exactly what you will need to re-apply and git reset --hard upstream/master
4184 2011-06-28 21:31:58 <vegard> sipa: well, I added $(OBJS:obj/%=obj/nogui/%) to the deps for test_bitcoin and now, running ./test_bitcoin -printtoconsole shows it loading the block index, connecting to irc, etc.
4185 2011-06-28 21:32:22 <sipa> vegard: you shouldn't load init.o
4186 2011-06-28 21:32:45 <b4epoche> HEAD is now at 3a3eabb Merge pull request #362 from ius/issue340
4187 2011-06-28 21:33:03 <sipa> main.o, wallet.o and db.o are probably unavoidable
4188 2011-06-28 21:33:05 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: good, now recopy your folder and reapply your changes
4189 2011-06-28 21:33:13 abragin has quit ()
4190 2011-06-28 21:33:14 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: then git commit -a; git push -f
4191 2011-06-28 21:33:42 <b4epoche> recopy the cocoa folder?
4192 2011-06-28 21:33:49 eternal1 has joined
4193 2011-06-28 21:34:01 <BlueMatt> yea
4194 2011-06-28 21:34:20 <BlueMatt> and reapply whatever changes you made to the original source
4195 2011-06-28 21:34:44 <b4epoche> yea…  got it.
4196 2011-06-28 21:35:13 <BlueMatt> sorry to be so repetitive...Im used to working with my grandmother...
4197 2011-06-28 21:35:26 <b4epoche> hmm…  looks like I missed a git add after moving cocoa/
4198 2011-06-28 21:35:40 <vegard> sipa: aha, great, thanks. it still complains about some missing symbols (pwalletmain, Shutdown), I'll try to fix it
4199 2011-06-28 21:35:48 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  well, I'm not that old but probably your parents' age
4200 2011-06-28 21:35:49 <BlueMatt> oh yea, that too
4201 2011-06-28 21:36:01 <sipa> vegard: those are defined in init.o
4202 2011-06-28 21:36:09 <sipa> vegard: but if you need those, there is a problem
4203 2011-06-28 21:36:12 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well Im used to working with people who know nothing about computers, not strictly any age group in particular
4204 2011-06-28 21:36:20 <sipa> vegard: could you tell me where they are needed?
4205 2011-06-28 21:36:24 <b4epoche> yea, I gotcha ;-)
4206 2011-06-28 21:36:35 <b4epoche> so I need something like 'git add cocoa'?
4207 2011-06-28 21:36:46 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea git add src/cocoa
4208 2011-06-28 21:36:55 <BlueMatt> or whatever depending on what folder you are in
4209 2011-06-28 21:37:52 <b4epoche> okay...
4210 2011-06-28 21:38:30 <vegard> sipa: http://pastebin.com/JRJZKT36
4211 2011-06-28 21:38:42 * b4epoche is hoping github is pretty idiot proof because he'd hate to f something up...
4212 2011-06-28 21:38:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: it is
4213 2011-06-28 21:39:00 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: its hard to mess it up, and if you do, just reset and push -f
4214 2011-06-28 21:39:01 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4215 2011-06-28 21:39:32 dukeleto has joined
4216 2011-06-28 21:40:05 <sipa> vegard: don't load net or rpc
4217 2011-06-28 21:41:19 <vegard> then I get undefined references to mapRelay, vNodes, cs_vNodes
4218 2011-06-28 21:41:41 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4219 2011-06-28 21:41:53 abragin has joined
4220 2011-06-28 21:41:53 abragin has quit (Changing host)
4221 2011-06-28 21:41:53 abragin has joined
4222 2011-06-28 21:41:55 <vegard> vRelayExpiration, cs_mapAddresses, mapAlreadyAskedFor, etc.
4223 2011-06-28 21:42:09 <vegard> mostly from main.cpp
4224 2011-06-28 21:42:32 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: ok, looks good, now it would be pull-able...but does it compile now that your dirs are all different?
4225 2011-06-28 21:42:44 gim has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4226 2011-06-28 21:42:59 <sipa> vegard: bah, that's why i want to turn net and rpc into pluggable components
4227 2011-06-28 21:43:04 gim has joined
4228 2011-06-28 21:43:38 <vegard> yeah :) I guess a library would be nice.
4229 2011-06-28 21:44:02 <vegard> but I can drop just init.o and define pwalletMain and Shutdown in test/test_bitcoin.cpp
4230 2011-06-28 21:44:41 <BlueMatt> "This week the US courts service (UScourts.gov) has shown increasing interest in Bitcoins.  Their research is ongoing but hastily scaling-up from where it was last week."
4231 2011-06-28 21:44:44 <BlueMatt> well thats not good
4232 2011-06-28 21:45:17 DrDeke_ is now known as Juffo-Wup
4233 2011-06-28 21:45:31 <sipa> where do you read that?
4234 2011-06-28 21:45:36 <BlueMatt> http://nerdr.com/bitcoin-laws-imminent-bit-coin-soon-to-be-illegal-in-us/
4235 2011-06-28 21:45:43 <BlueMatt> only source I can seem to find so ymmv
4236 2011-06-28 21:46:03 <BlueMatt> and the rest goes on to explain the basic info on bitcoin
4237 2011-06-28 21:46:14 <BlueMatt> but the first paragraph isnt good...
4238 2011-06-28 21:46:15 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4239 2011-06-28 21:46:34 E-sense has joined
4240 2011-06-28 21:49:05 <relm> sounds like complete bs...
4241 2011-06-28 21:49:21 <BlueMatt> yea, but the commenters dont disagree with the premise
4242 2011-06-28 21:49:22 <relm> there's nothing on uscourts.gov about it, and this site is less than a month old
4243 2011-06-28 21:49:46 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
4244 2011-06-28 21:49:49 <BlueMatt> and it would make since given that comment by that senator a while ago
4245 2011-06-28 21:49:50 flok has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4246 2011-06-28 21:50:06 sgstair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4247 2011-06-28 21:50:27 <BlueMatt> but yea...that guy probably knows about as much as we do...
4248 2011-06-28 21:50:40 meLon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4249 2011-06-28 21:50:51 flok has joined
4250 2011-06-28 21:50:53 sgstair has joined
4251 2011-06-28 21:50:56 anddam has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4252 2011-06-28 21:51:13 <gmaxwell> FWIW, there are bitcoin users who work in varrious relevant agencies (e.g. I know one at the DOJ). I think we'd here something through one of them first then some completely opaque anonymous blog.
4253 2011-06-28 21:51:38 <BlueMatt> true
4254 2011-06-28 21:51:49 * b4epoche_ needs to have his brother at NIJ buy some bitcoins
4255 2011-06-28 21:51:57 Beremat has joined
4256 2011-06-28 21:52:45 <b4epoche_> nice stats:  http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/Statistics/BankruptcyStatistics/BankruptcyFilings/2010/0610_f2.pdf
4257 2011-06-28 21:53:29 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_:  interesting
4258 2011-06-28 21:54:42 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: The nerdr.com domain is registered to someone in the UK. He also blogs about the BBC, ranting about UK TV taxes while claiming to be in the US.
4259 2011-06-28 21:54:43 * b4epoche_ calls FUD on the nerdr.com
4260 2011-06-28 21:54:49 <BlueMatt> probably
4261 2011-06-28 21:54:53 cyphase has quit (Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/)
4262 2011-06-28 21:55:15 <BlueMatt> nevermind, I had thought I had heard of this blog before, but I had it confused with something else
4263 2011-06-28 21:55:26 <JFK911> throw the feds down the well
4264 2011-06-28 21:55:30 <JFK911> so my country can be free!
4265 2011-06-28 21:55:36 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4266 2011-06-28 21:55:51 <BlueMatt> also, he claims the people investigating are from the cia, which would be incorrect, it would have to be the doj
4267 2011-06-28 21:56:04 <BlueMatt> and he then claims that its from us courts...?
4268 2011-06-28 21:56:11 <BlueMatt> yea definitely fud
4269 2011-06-28 21:56:21 <gmaxwell> http://nerdr.com/bitcoin-exchange-scam-bitcoins-are-worthless/ < also, this is k00kland material
4270 2011-06-28 21:56:51 wasabi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4271 2011-06-28 21:56:53 IncitatusOnWater has joined
4272 2011-06-28 21:57:39 <Fairuser> all the server's look good, nothing is under a high-load, bandwidth isn't maxed...we must really be @ that speed.
4273 2011-06-28 21:57:41 <Fairuser> damn it
4274 2011-06-28 21:57:55 <sipa> what speed?
4275 2011-06-28 21:57:57 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
4276 2011-06-28 21:57:58 <gribble> 10965.080483759697
4277 2011-06-28 21:58:04 <BlueMatt> wrong chan?
4278 2011-06-28 21:58:21 * b4epoche_ had an idea for a new nick:  FairAbuser
4279 2011-06-28 21:58:35 <BlueMatt> ?
4280 2011-06-28 21:58:39 <Fairuser> totally sleep deprived
4281 2011-06-28 21:58:45 <Fairuser> wrong chan
4282 2011-06-28 21:58:46 <BlueMatt> noone cares about what nick you use
4283 2011-06-28 21:58:55 <b4epoche_> I know...
4284 2011-06-28 21:58:57 <sipa> dinox: are you here?
4285 2011-06-28 21:59:00 <BlueMatt> unless its like that one guy, named himself rapist or something
4286 2011-06-28 21:59:10 <b4epoche_> but I like the juxtaposition of FairAbuser
4287 2011-06-28 21:59:22 <gmaxwell> I've seen a couple incidents of people with active connections getting stuck hundreds of blocks behind the main network. Any idea how we could measure this to find out if its one off flukes or something broken?
4288 2011-06-28 21:59:25 <sipa> ;;later tell dinox could you recheck the import cache issue with the current showwallet branch?
4289 2011-06-28 21:59:25 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
4290 2011-06-28 21:59:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: do you have time to rebase wallet import onto crypto?
4291 2011-06-28 22:00:09 Nexus_7 has joined
4292 2011-06-28 22:00:12 Nexus7 has quit (Disconnected by services)
4293 2011-06-28 22:00:12 <BlueMatt> shouldnt be too hard, just a bit of copy/paste to force user to enter password
4294 2011-06-28 22:00:14 Nexus_7 has quit (Client Quit)
4295 2011-06-28 22:00:14 <sipa> don't think that will be hard
4296 2011-06-28 22:00:46 <sipa> but i prefer not to do so right now, as there are people testing showwallet, who may not be interesting in testing wallet crypto as well
4297 2011-06-28 22:01:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, well personally Id like to get them pulled by later in the week so we can rc 0.4 and get more testing
4298 2011-06-28 22:01:29 <jrmithdobbs> is crypto a build/runtime option?
4299 2011-06-28 22:01:35 <BlueMatt> runtime
4300 2011-06-28 22:02:03 <meelu> anyone know any mtgox type of scripts which are readily available? i could code my own but id rather modify something ready
4301 2011-06-28 22:02:06 <BlueMatt> it adds no new deps though, just openssl evp, which we already have openssl dep
4302 2011-06-28 22:02:17 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: long as i can turn crypto off i don't mind you going ahead and rebasing against it
4303 2011-06-28 22:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> (since i'm one of the people you're talking about)
4304 2011-06-28 22:03:03 <gmaxwell> As soon as the wallet crypto lands in mainline I'll start doing some automated abuse of it.
4305 2011-06-28 22:03:13 <gmaxwell> I won't be testing the GUI however.
4306 2011-06-28 22:03:23 <sipa> and by mainline you mean git head, or release?
4307 2011-06-28 22:03:29 <gmaxwell> head.
4308 2011-06-28 22:03:36 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: on by default, right? what's the option to turn off?
4309 2011-06-28 22:03:37 <gmaxwell> Waiting until release would be counterproductive.
4310 2011-06-28 22:03:48 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: off by default
4311 2011-06-28 22:03:55 <jrmithdobbs> oh, even better then
4312 2011-06-28 22:04:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you might as well do it now, I doubt anything is really gonna be changed but typo fixes and such
4313 2011-06-28 22:04:54 germanMNY has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4)
4314 2011-06-28 22:04:55 <gmaxwell> and fwiw, I really wish bitcoin were valgrind clean. I've found testing in valgrind is an order of magnitude more sensitive to not, but it's not useful if I have to sort through a bunch of false positives.
4315 2011-06-28 22:05:41 <BlueMatt> do you want to make it that then?
4316 2011-06-28 22:06:26 <gmaxwell> maybe, IIRC the issues weren't bitcoin proper, they were in the libraries. (I should look again)
4317 2011-06-28 22:06:40 <b4epoche> How would I undef the _("…") macro?
4318 2011-06-28 22:06:52 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: its a wx thing unless you are doing noui
4319 2011-06-28 22:06:57 <jrmithdobbs> there's a bunch of stuff in openssl that's not valgrind clean but is actually fine
4320 2011-06-28 22:06:58 <BlueMatt> in which case its probably in noui
4321 2011-06-28 22:06:58 <b4epoche> yea, I know
4322 2011-06-28 22:07:12 <jrmithdobbs> a whole bunch
4323 2011-06-28 22:07:16 <b4epoche> no, it's sprinkled throughout the code
4324 2011-06-28 22:07:34 <b4epoche> error messages mainly
4325 2011-06-28 22:07:45 <b4epoche> forgot that I'd stripped all that out
4326 2011-06-28 22:07:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm doing a rebase in a separate branch now
4327 2011-06-28 22:07:55 <Dagger2> there's stuff in openssl that's not valgrind clean but is absolutely essential
4328 2011-06-28 22:08:01 <Dagger2> re: debian ssl cert fuckup
4329 2011-06-28 22:08:19 <gmaxwell> Dagger2: IIRC they got rid of that stupid uninitialized memory crap
4330 2011-06-28 22:08:20 <sipa> doesn't mean there is no valgrind-client way that is still sane
4331 2011-06-28 22:08:26 Breign has quit ()
4332 2011-06-28 22:08:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no it's still there
4333 2011-06-28 22:08:29 <sipa> *clean
4334 2011-06-28 22:08:34 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: depends on platform.
4335 2011-06-28 22:08:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, thanks
4336 2011-06-28 22:08:58 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i had to build suppress files for it on osx lol
4337 2011-06-28 22:09:06 cacheson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4338 2011-06-28 22:09:10 <gmaxwell> meh, it's kinda dumb the content of the uninitilized memory is pretty determinsitic in most cases. In any case, if that were all, I could write a valigrind rule ignore it.
4339 2011-06-28 22:09:13 <BlueMatt> Because most people wont test until its in mainline, Id like to pull later in the week, ie friday or Saturday
4340 2011-06-28 22:09:29 wasabi has joined
4341 2011-06-28 22:09:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: packaged valgrind for you distro should have *most* of the annoying stuff suppressed
4342 2011-06-28 22:09:44 <jrmithdobbs> debian's does anyways
4343 2011-06-28 22:09:47 <jrmithdobbs> (by default, i mean)
4344 2011-06-28 22:10:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: bets are off on wx though
4345 2011-06-28 22:10:09 <gmaxwell> Yes, fedora's does too. But it still spews a ton on bitcoin.
4346 2011-06-28 22:11:21 puhc has joined
4347 2011-06-28 22:11:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I should be testing newenc branch of your tree, right?
4348 2011-06-28 22:11:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea
4349 2011-06-28 22:11:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm, it'll be a bit more work than i expected, as mapKeys is now (rightfully) hidden, so it can't be accessed by rpcdump
4350 2011-06-28 22:12:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: ah, well good thing its being done now then ;)
4351 2011-06-28 22:12:23 <vegard> sipa: thanks
4352 2011-06-28 22:12:24 <sipa> nah, won't be for today
4353 2011-06-28 22:12:37 abragin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4354 2011-06-28 22:12:40 <BlueMatt> well in the near future instead of waiting for merge then :)
4355 2011-06-28 22:12:46 <BlueMatt> (I hope)
4356 2011-06-28 22:13:43 <ius> sipa: Can you close https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/325 ? It's fixed/not-our-problem-(yet)
4357 2011-06-28 22:14:30 <b4epoche> hmm…  ideas for fixing this name conflict on the OSX site?  CDB in db.h conflicts with a typedef in CoreFoundation
4358 2011-06-28 22:14:32 forever-d has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4359 2011-06-28 22:14:40 alexbobp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4360 2011-06-28 22:14:50 abragin has joined
4361 2011-06-28 22:14:54 <b4epoche> someone mentioned #undef CDB last week but that doesn't seem to work
4362 2011-06-28 22:15:04 <BlueMatt> maybe CDBBase?
4363 2011-06-28 22:15:34 <b4epoche> well, I had renamed the class in db.h before but got a 'no' on making that a permanent change
4364 2011-06-28 22:15:52 <BlueMatt> a no from?
4365 2011-06-28 22:16:08 quijibo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4366 2011-06-28 22:16:08 <b4epoche> jgarzik?  gavin?
4367 2011-06-28 22:16:15 <b4epoche> one of them
4368 2011-06-28 22:16:19 <sipa> ius: not sure yet about that
4369 2011-06-28 22:16:28 <sipa> ius: the boost thing
4370 2011-06-28 22:16:32 <BlueMatt> hm, dont see why there would be an issue if you renamed it to CDBBase or something
4371 2011-06-28 22:16:43 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what did you propose changing it to?
4372 2011-06-28 22:16:47 <b4epoche> yea, I didn't think so either
4373 2011-06-28 22:16:52 <b4epoche> _CDB
4374 2011-06-28 22:16:54 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4375 2011-06-28 22:16:59 <sipa> i'd be against _CDB
4376 2011-06-28 22:17:02 <BlueMatt> well I dont like _CDB
4377 2011-06-28 22:17:02 <b4epoche> but anything would do
4378 2011-06-28 22:17:07 <b4epoche> CDB_
4379 2011-06-28 22:17:12 <ius> sipa: I am quite positive, see 926e14b3
4380 2011-06-28 22:17:12 <sipa> please, no _
4381 2011-06-28 22:17:14 <BlueMatt> Id be against that too
4382 2011-06-28 22:17:18 <BlueMatt> just seems unclean
4383 2011-06-28 22:17:21 <sipa> indeed
4384 2011-06-28 22:17:31 <BlueMatt> but seriously, its a base class, just call it CDBBase
4385 2011-06-28 22:17:32 <sipa> a _ has the 'stay away from me' connotation
4386 2011-06-28 22:17:33 <b4epoche> yea, it was my default rename
4387 2011-06-28 22:17:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: agree
4388 2011-06-28 22:18:12 <b4epoche> _CDB_but_you_can_still_use_me?
4389 2011-06-28 22:18:24 <sipa> ...
4390 2011-06-28 22:18:27 <BlueMatt> CDB is used no where but as a class to extend from
4391 2011-06-28 22:18:42 <sipa> hell just call it CDatabase
4392 2011-06-28 22:18:51 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
4393 2011-06-28 22:18:53 <BlueMatt> call it anything sane
4394 2011-06-28 22:20:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: fix for mlock (had a sec finally)
4395 2011-06-28 22:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> #ifdef __APPLE__
4396 2011-06-28 22:20:44 <jrmithdobbs> #define portable_mlock(a,b) mlock(((a / 4096) * 4096),b)
4397 2011-06-28 22:20:45 <jrmithdobbs> #else
4398 2011-06-28 22:20:45 <jrmithdobbs> #define portable_mlock(a,b) mlock(a,b)
4399 2011-06-28 22:20:45 <jrmithdobbs> #endif
4400 2011-06-28 22:20:45 <b4epoche> does ~CDB have a connotation?
4401 2011-06-28 22:20:53 <b4epoche> I see that in there too
4402 2011-06-28 22:21:02 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: is there no constant PAGESIZE or so?
4403 2011-06-28 22:21:03 <ius> That would be a destructor?
4404 2011-06-28 22:21:10 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: not that I can find
4405 2011-06-28 22:21:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i can look again though
4406 2011-06-28 22:21:34 <sipa> and that's not a fix, that's making the apple case worse to get it equal to other systems
4407 2011-06-28 22:21:49 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110614230723])
4408 2011-06-28 22:21:52 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: afaict on OSX it's always 4096 except for some weird exceptions in kernel space
4409 2011-06-28 22:22:04 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: how is that worse?
4410 2011-06-28 22:22:05 <sipa> i don't care that it is always 4096
4411 2011-06-28 22:23:31 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea ~ denotes a constructor
4412 2011-06-28 22:23:39 <b4epoche> ah, right...
4413 2011-06-28 22:24:28 <b4epoche> did serialize.h change?
4414 2011-06-28 22:24:29 <BlueMatt> oh sorry destructor, I cant type for some reason
4415 2011-06-28 22:24:36 TheZimm has joined
4416 2011-06-28 22:25:36 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: not since bump to version 0.3.23
4417 2011-06-28 22:25:49 <sipa> don't we need a version bump now?
4418 2011-06-28 22:25:54 <diki> ;;bc,stats
4419 2011-06-28 22:25:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133744 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1327 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1485635.21243534
4420 2011-06-28 22:26:02 <BlueMatt> yea, dont know why jgarzik hasnt done that yet...it is his job ;)
4421 2011-06-28 22:26:11 AStove has quit ()
4422 2011-06-28 22:26:12 <BlueMatt> though probably hasnt since we have made no user-facing changes
4423 2011-06-28 22:26:17 <BlueMatt> or network facing or anything-facing
4424 2011-06-28 22:26:20 <BlueMatt> just CWallet so far
4425 2011-06-28 22:26:25 <jgarzik> sipa: yes.  I nominate you :)  Just look at the past commits that did so, which is what I do, to make sure you hit all the proper files.
4426 2011-06-28 22:26:27 <BlueMatt> and minor bug fixes
4427 2011-06-28 22:26:39 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: there's a posix getpagesize() but then it really shouldn't be a macro
4428 2011-06-28 22:26:40 scott` has joined
4429 2011-06-28 22:26:47 * jgarzik hasn't had much time for bitcoin this week, what with moving to a new house and day job and all
4430 2011-06-28 22:27:03 <BlueMatt> oh moving, god thats a pain in the ass
4431 2011-06-28 22:27:06 scott` is now known as Guest63924
4432 2011-06-28 22:27:23 <knotwork> I have recompiled on x86_64 the same *coin daemons that have been working on 32-bit machines
4433 2011-06-28 22:27:51 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: "CDB" is a SCSI RPC message.  Some OSX header leaks that symbol, from SCSI hard drive land, into our build for some reason.  Ideally someone needs to look at the headers, and try and figure out how to -not- include a totally unrelated SCSI hard drive header.
4434 2011-06-28 22:27:52 <knotwork> I am running them on a 4-core 64 bit machine and a 2-core 64 bit machine.
4435 2011-06-28 22:27:57 * jgarzik is not fond of renaming for such stupidity
4436 2011-06-28 22:28:10 <knotwork> the last 4 digits of difficulty is nonzero on the 64 bit machines
4437 2011-06-28 22:28:17 <sipa> meh, let's do the version bump after crypto is merged
4438 2011-06-28 22:28:19 <knotwork> on 32 bit difficulty is 1.00000000
4439 2011-06-28 22:28:30 <sipa> people will identify 0.4.0 with wallet crypto anyway
4440 2011-06-28 22:28:50 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
4441 2011-06-28 22:28:52 <jgarzik> sipa: I don't think it's terribly important either way, but previous practice bumps version after previous release
4442 2011-06-28 22:28:57 <knotwork> on 64 bit it is 1.00005341
4443 2011-06-28 22:29:24 * jgarzik -> disappears to other room again.  On top of it all, feeling meh and gonna lay down in bed.
4444 2011-06-28 22:29:38 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4445 2011-06-28 22:29:42 <knotwork> the 32 bit machine has won every block, last 20 blocks, the 64 bit machines have not won any blocks at all
4446 2011-06-28 22:30:24 <vegard> knotwork: you didn't copy over ~/.bitcoin or something?
4447 2011-06-28 22:30:50 <knotwork> the 64 bit machines are fresh new net-installs of fedora 15
4448 2011-06-28 22:30:57 <knotwork> they had no ~
4449 2011-06-28 22:31:11 <knotwork> I created user named bitcoin on each of them and started the daemons from scratch
4450 2011-06-28 22:31:32 abragin has quit ()
4451 2011-06-28 22:31:39 <knotwork> i dont yet know if actual latest trunk of actual bitcoin has the problem as they have not gotten all its blocks yet
4452 2011-06-28 22:31:51 bitanarchy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4453 2011-06-28 22:32:03 <vegard> this is testnet?
4454 2011-06-28 22:32:06 <knotwork> it is the variants that have small enough blockchains the new machines caught up fast have al the blocks and have been mining for hours
4455 2011-06-28 22:32:11 <knotwork> it is variants of testnet
4456 2011-06-28 22:32:28 <zapnap> hmm... getting kevent "bad file descriptor" warnings when running pushpool. anyone have pointers for tracking this down? wish it was a little more verbose... :/
4457 2011-06-28 22:32:28 <knotwork> each of the varian currencies is implemented by hacking the -testnet section of the code
4458 2011-06-28 22:32:52 <knotwork> so each can run old normal bitcoin or, by using -testnet switch, can run its own neefangled variant currency
4459 2011-06-28 22:33:06 <vegard> zapnap: you could try strace (grep for EBADF) or valgrind
4460 2011-06-28 22:33:23 <knotwork> the variant currencies have been working for months on 32 bit boxes, one mining them (cpu mining all at once, very slow)
4461 2011-06-28 22:33:36 Nesetalis has quit (Quit: <+shponka> how does one scissor with four people <+shponka> hypercube tribadism)
4462 2011-06-28 22:33:44 <knotwork> and one merely listening so the miner has someone to talk to to feel secure about mining
4463 2011-06-28 22:34:32 <knotwork> I have not yet re-created newer versions of the variants based on latest trunk as I dont know yet if latest trunk actually works on the 64 bit machines itself
4464 2011-06-28 22:34:38 kreal- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4465 2011-06-28 22:34:44 <zapnap> vegard: i'll give valgrind a look, thnx
4466 2011-06-28 22:35:30 <vegard> zapnap: actually I think strace will be better. make sure to run with -f
4467 2011-06-28 22:35:35 <knotwork> only change I made to compile on 64 bit was I moved the db lib from static section of linking in makefiule to the shared libs section
4468 2011-06-28 22:35:46 kreal- has joined
4469 2011-06-28 22:35:46 tandy80 has joined
4470 2011-06-28 22:35:47 <zapnap> vegard: on os x... is strace even available off of linux dists?
4471 2011-06-28 22:35:53 <knotwork> since fedora 15 came with the right db libs but as shared libs
4472 2011-06-28 22:35:59 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: no os x has something much better
4473 2011-06-28 22:36:04 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: dtrace
4474 2011-06-28 22:36:09 <zapnap> jrmithdobbs: kk
4475 2011-06-28 22:36:11 <jrmithdobbs> (does not work exactly the same)
4476 2011-06-28 22:36:21 <knotwork> whereas all the trouble I had getting the right ones in fedora 14 I figured might as well use them static for easier porting to other fedora 14 machines
4477 2011-06-28 22:36:32 <vegard> zapnap: oh, osx. right. never used that one :)
4478 2011-06-28 22:36:37 <zapnap> jrmithdobbs: any pointers for getting up and running quickly? :)
4479 2011-06-28 22:36:46 <jrmithdobbs> zapnap: man dtrace ;p
4480 2011-06-28 22:36:51 <zapnap> hehe
4481 2011-06-28 22:36:55 <zapnap> fair enough :p
4482 2011-06-28 22:37:02 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4483 2011-06-28 22:37:11 <knotwork> this is all with just bitcoind so far, I have not attempted to do the xwidgets stuff yet in fedora 15
4484 2011-06-28 22:37:17 cacheson has joined
4485 2011-06-28 22:37:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: getinfo should tell you the locked status of the wallet and time till relock if unlockd.
4486 2011-06-28 22:38:34 <sipa> "unencrypted", "locked", "unlocked" ?
4487 2011-06-28 22:39:20 <gmaxwell> unencrypted, locked, unlocked/seconds_remain ?
4488 2011-06-28 22:39:39 <gmaxwell> (or just omit the field if the wallet is unencrypted)
4489 2011-06-28 22:40:40 <sipa> or a "unlocked_until", with 0 if locked, now() if unencrypred
4490 2011-06-28 22:41:25 <knotwork> what kind of arithmetic for difficulty calculation would come up with 1.00000000 in 32 bit and 1.00005341 in 64 bit? does it use floats instead of just formatting a period into a string represrentation of a 64 bit integer value maybe?
4491 2011-06-28 22:42:25 Klash_ is now known as Kurtov
4492 2011-06-28 22:42:53 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
4493 2011-06-28 22:43:06 <gmaxwell> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what():  ReserveKeyFromKeyPool() : unknown key in key pool
4494 2011-06-28 22:44:50 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4495 2011-06-28 22:45:01 meLon has joined
4496 2011-06-28 22:45:02 meLon has quit (Changing host)
4497 2011-06-28 22:45:02 meLon has joined
4498 2011-06-28 22:45:14 <gmaxwell> feh, heisenbug. nuking the directory and restarting and it didn't do it again.
4499 2011-06-28 22:45:40 <gmaxwell> that was from bitcoin in AppInit()
4500 2011-06-28 22:45:58 <gmaxwell> (on the wallet encryption branch, bringing up a new node on testnet)
4501 2011-06-28 22:46:12 <gmaxwell> (running in valgrind, which makes it more likely to trigger some race conditions)
4502 2011-06-28 22:46:14 Guest63924 has quit (Quit: Guest63924)
4503 2011-06-28 22:46:16 b4epoche_ has joined
4504 2011-06-28 22:47:01 mologie has joined
4505 2011-06-28 22:48:28 <knotwork> if you have several machines all using -addnode to add all the others, are some of the thus-specified connections deliberately dropped so as not to have fully connected net of connections between them?
4506 2011-06-28 22:48:52 <knotwork> as I am seeing only 1 connection on some of the 4 machines and 3 on one of them
4507 2011-06-28 22:49:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I dont know of any code which could do that in wallet crypto...
4508 2011-06-28 22:49:18 <zapnap> so i'm able to get a little more info using dtruss... but still kinda lost here, sigh :(
4509 2011-06-28 22:49:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: i think "Encrypt wallet" should be disabled or hidden when the wallet is already encrypted
4510 2011-06-28 22:50:13 <sipa> and if get a form for entering the password, and click cancel, i don't want a message "passphrase was invalid"
4511 2011-06-28 22:50:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: may be an old bug. a bit hard to tell since it doesn't happen every time.
4512 2011-06-28 22:50:37 <BlueMatt> also, I added a unlocked_until thing in getinfo in the branch with the rounds based on speed
4513 2011-06-28 22:50:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, thats what I was thinking, but I could very well be sorely wrong
4514 2011-06-28 22:51:11 oozyburglar has joined
4515 2011-06-28 22:51:16 <BlueMatt> sipa: Ill go see if I can do that dynamically...
4516 2011-06-28 22:51:32 mrtnt1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4517 2011-06-28 22:53:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: happened at startup?
4518 2011-06-28 22:53:18 <zapnap> note i'm only seeing this when redirecting / stderr with -E
4519 2011-06-28 22:53:19 HardDisk_WP has joined
4520 2011-06-28 22:53:36 <zapnap> otherwise, even with a heigtened log level, no warnings are ever written to logs
4521 2011-06-28 22:53:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes on an initial run, connected to testnet with an empty ~/.bitcoin/testnet
4522 2011-06-28 22:54:02 Soak has quit ()
4523 2011-06-28 22:54:14 gim has quit (Quit: sleep)
4524 2011-06-28 22:54:39 <sipa> UNKNOWN EXCEPTION
4525 2011-06-28 22:54:39 <sipa> bitcoin in CMyApp::OnUnhandledException()
4526 2011-06-28 22:54:45 <sipa> when exiting newenc
4527 2011-06-28 22:54:58 <b4epoche_> did something change with SetAddressBookName?
4528 2011-06-28 22:55:08 <gmaxwell> timer thread? and the sleep gets a signal or something?
4529 2011-06-28 22:55:29 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4530 2011-06-28 22:55:56 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4531 2011-06-28 22:56:15 mrtnt1 has joined
4532 2011-06-28 22:56:19 lumos has joined
4533 2011-06-28 22:57:20 <BlueMatt> new push, just to give you a heads up, its a 1 char change in uiproject.fbp which just anoys me when there are random 1char diffs in commits
4534 2011-06-28 22:57:24 <BlueMatt> no changes
4535 2011-06-28 22:58:13 Klash_ has joined
4536 2011-06-28 22:58:13 Klash_ has quit (Client Quit)
4537 2011-06-28 22:59:10 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4538 2011-06-28 22:59:28 octarine has joined
4539 2011-06-28 22:59:34 <gmaxwell> One downside of this crypto code is that a wallet can't obviously be born encrypted, so you're quite likely to get bits of non-encrypted keys on your disk.
4540 2011-06-28 22:59:34 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4541 2011-06-28 22:59:44 <gmaxwell> I don't see a super easy way to fix that.
4542 2011-06-28 23:00:02 <BlueMatt> wouldnt be impossible to ask for password in init
4543 2011-06-28 23:00:10 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
4544 2011-06-28 23:00:13 dukeleto has joined
4545 2011-06-28 23:00:18 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4546 2011-06-28 23:00:29 <gmaxwell> Or if you activate encryption before ever hitting get address, and there are no keys except the keypool, trash them all?
4547 2011-06-28 23:00:29 <BlueMatt> (the old version did)
4548 2011-06-28 23:00:39 <b4epoche_> yes, indeed...  db.h got stripped of a bunch of stuff.
4549 2011-06-28 23:00:56 hwolf has joined
4550 2011-06-28 23:01:30 dukeleto has joined
4551 2011-06-28 23:01:50 octarine has left ()
4552 2011-06-28 23:01:57 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4553 2011-06-28 23:02:29 dukeleto has joined
4554 2011-06-28 23:02:44 <sipa> b4epoche_: there are some problems with the address book interface on wallet.h
4555 2011-06-28 23:02:51 <sipa> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/358
4556 2011-06-28 23:02:58 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
4557 2011-06-28 23:03:35 <b4epoche_> so, address book is gone?
4558 2011-06-28 23:03:49 <sipa> no
4559 2011-06-28 23:03:51 <b4epoche_> oh, I see
4560 2011-06-28 23:05:34 <b4epoche_> so, I should just disable address book in the GUI for the moment?
4561 2011-06-28 23:07:42 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4562 2011-06-28 23:11:36 skeledrew has joined
4563 2011-06-28 23:11:51 genjix has left ()
4564 2011-06-28 23:12:22 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4565 2011-06-28 23:14:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: the problem reported by gmaxwell seems consistent, just run newenc on an empty director
4566 2011-06-28 23:14:45 suriv has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
4567 2011-06-28 23:14:48 <gmaxwell> oh, ha. I tried reproducing it and failed. Glad you can hit it.
4568 2011-06-28 23:14:55 suriv has joined
4569 2011-06-28 23:15:35 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: would you object to code that uses getpagesize() and wraps mlock/munlock to always call mlock() at the word boundry *before* addr?
4570 2011-06-28 23:15:38 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4571 2011-06-28 23:15:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: wfm...?
4572 2011-06-28 23:15:59 <BlueMatt> oh, got it, has to be on the second run
4573 2011-06-28 23:16:09 <BlueMatt> ok wtf
4574 2011-06-28 23:16:38 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4575 2011-06-28 23:16:38 <unclemantis> using testnet is there any way to speed up the confirmations?
4576 2011-06-28 23:16:42 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4577 2011-06-28 23:16:45 <BlueMatt> I know I tested all kinds of cases like this before
4578 2011-06-28 23:16:50 <jrmithdobbs> unclemantis: mine on testnet
4579 2011-06-28 23:16:52 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: you can mine
4580 2011-06-28 23:16:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'm _really_ good at breaking stuff. :)
4581 2011-06-28 23:17:06 <b4epoche_> unclemantis:  it's been speedy for me
4582 2011-06-28 23:17:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: clearly
4583 2011-06-28 23:17:11 dukeleto has joined
4584 2011-06-28 23:17:23 <unclemantis> it is taking about 10 minutes or so per confirmation
4585 2011-06-28 23:17:27 <BlueMatt> yea, it writes no private keys...that seems...wrong
4586 2011-06-28 23:17:31 <unclemantis> most of my day is being wasted due to waiting
4587 2011-06-28 23:17:39 <gmaxwell> (probably there are a good dozen multimedia codec CERT advisories from my testing :))
4588 2011-06-28 23:18:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: why does TopUpKeyPool exist if !IsLocked() ?
4589 2011-06-28 23:18:05 kermit has joined
4590 2011-06-28 23:18:17 <sipa> *exit
4591 2011-06-28 23:18:39 <unclemantis> what is the durration of a testnet-box confirmation for you guys?
4592 2011-06-28 23:18:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: where?
4593 2011-06-28 23:18:40 <sipa> nvm
4594 2011-06-28 23:18:43 <sipa> misread
4595 2011-06-28 23:18:45 <unclemantis> and do i need to have getgenerate true?
4596 2011-06-28 23:20:31 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: it would have to round the lower boundary down, and the size up to a multiple of the pagesize then
4597 2011-06-28 23:20:43 eternal1 has joined
4598 2011-06-28 23:20:52 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: yes
4599 2011-06-28 23:20:56 <sipa> but if we're going to fix the mlock issue, you need valloc/memalign/... as well
4600 2011-06-28 23:20:59 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: well, yes to the former, not the latter
4601 2011-06-28 23:21:05 Nesetalis has joined
4602 2011-06-28 23:21:15 <sipa> hell, maybe you could write a cached locked-memory allocator
4603 2011-06-28 23:21:17 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: you always mlock() whole pages
4604 2011-06-28 23:21:27 <sipa> that reuses earlier mlocked memory
4605 2011-06-28 23:21:41 <jrmithdobbs> go for it, this code is simple, that is a pain ;p
4606 2011-06-28 23:21:46 <sipa> haha
4607 2011-06-28 23:22:31 <jrmithdobbs> https://gist.github.com/1052488
4608 2011-06-28 23:23:05 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: wrong
4609 2011-06-28 23:23:08 <jrmithdobbs> how?
4610 2011-06-28 23:23:22 <sipa> len should be increased if you decrease addr
4611 2011-06-28 23:23:26 <jrmithdobbs> nope
4612 2011-06-28 23:23:31 <jrmithdobbs> you *always lock a whole page*
4613 2011-06-28 23:23:35 <sipa> yes
4614 2011-06-28 23:23:45 <jrmithdobbs> wait, nm
4615 2011-06-28 23:23:47 <gmaxwell> but what if it spanned pages before.
4616 2011-06-28 23:23:58 <unclemantis> seriously. how do i speed up these friggin confirmations
4617 2011-06-28 23:23:58 <sipa> imagine i want to lock two bytes, one of which is at the end of a block, the other at the beginning of the next page
4618 2011-06-28 23:24:01 <jrmithdobbs> you're right
4619 2011-06-28 23:24:52 <vegard> http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/a4829db5d4db3941abb8772e5edc86167e9e263079be71be6e73a1d24a3fb04b <-- in here, what is "coinbase" of vin[0]? is it a script?
4620 2011-06-28 23:24:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok fixed, minor typo
4621 2011-06-28 23:25:00 nikb has joined
4622 2011-06-28 23:25:07 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4623 2011-06-28 23:25:22 <sipa> vegard: arbitrary data
4624 2011-06-28 23:25:31 <sipa> it's not used anywhere at all
4625 2011-06-28 23:25:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: also, all the other suggestions from tonight are in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/360
4626 2011-06-28 23:26:06 <vegard> sipa: really? where does it come from, then?
4627 2011-06-28 23:26:11 <sipa> vegard: it's used as nonce
4628 2011-06-28 23:26:36 <sipa> it contains the difficulty and a serialized integer, in the default client's implementation
4629 2011-06-28 23:26:57 <vegard> aha
4630 2011-06-28 23:27:08 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4631 2011-06-28 23:27:20 <vegard> thanks again.
4632 2011-06-28 23:27:31 viggi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4633 2011-06-28 23:28:29 <unclemantis> how do i speed up the confirmations on a testnet-box
4634 2011-06-28 23:28:36 <BlueMatt> mine
4635 2011-06-28 23:28:41 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
4636 2011-06-28 23:28:42 <unclemantis> I am
4637 2011-06-28 23:28:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 133756 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 1315 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 10 hours, 21 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1496670.89633242
4638 2011-06-28 23:28:48 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: then mine harder
4639 2011-06-28 23:28:52 <unclemantis> HOW!?
4640 2011-06-28 23:28:56 <unclemantis> I am only using a CPU
4641 2011-06-28 23:28:59 <BlueMatt> it was a joke
4642 2011-06-28 23:29:00 <sipa> add moar powaaah
4643 2011-06-28 23:29:01 <luke-jr> add a GPU
4644 2011-06-28 23:29:04 <BlueMatt> unless you upgrade to gpu, you cant
4645 2011-06-28 23:29:05 <unclemantis> I KNOW! :P
4646 2011-06-28 23:29:07 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
4647 2011-06-28 23:29:09 <BlueMatt> or overclock cpu
4648 2011-06-28 23:29:13 f33x_ has joined
4649 2011-06-28 23:29:17 <luke-jr> or use cpuminer
4650 2011-06-28 23:29:17 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: there https://gist.github.com/1052498 ;p
4651 2011-06-28 23:29:18 <BlueMatt> and overvolt like a madman
4652 2011-06-28 23:29:24 <unclemantis> lol
4653 2011-06-28 23:29:33 <unclemantis> what if i can't?
4654 2011-06-28 23:29:33 <BlueMatt> and liquid hydrogen cool
4655 2011-06-28 23:29:34 <sipa> and cool in liquid helium
4656 2011-06-28 23:29:40 <BlueMatt> I prefer hydrogen
4657 2011-06-28 23:29:54 <unclemantis> you both are nuts
4658 2011-06-28 23:30:00 <jrmithdobbs> should probably have compiled first lol
4659 2011-06-28 23:30:10 <sipa> walnuts?
4660 2011-06-28 23:30:21 <jrmithdobbs> stupid casting to make bit operations work
4661 2011-06-28 23:30:24 <unclemantis> too acidic
4662 2011-06-28 23:30:25 <BlueMatt> isnt it liquid hydrogen that cools to superconducting for most metals?
4663 2011-06-28 23:30:27 <sturles> BlueMatt: I don't think your CPU will stand the pressure needed to liquidize hydrogen.
4664 2011-06-28 23:30:44 <BlueMatt> sturles: I dont think a reguar cpu would work if you cooled it that low either
4665 2011-06-28 23:30:54 <BlueMatt> (though the cpu doesnt need to stand the pressure, just the cooling block)
4666 2011-06-28 23:30:57 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4667 2011-06-28 23:30:57 f33x_ is now known as f33x
4668 2011-06-28 23:31:07 <sturles> True.
4669 2011-06-28 23:31:18 <unclemantis> what is the next big thing after GPUs?
4670 2011-06-28 23:31:32 <BlueMatt> Id assume most cpus work under the assumption that they are not being cooled to superconduct ;)
4671 2011-06-28 23:31:33 <sturles> Sliced bread
4672 2011-06-28 23:31:40 citiz3n has quit ()
4673 2011-06-28 23:31:43 <BlueMatt> no canned bread
4674 2011-06-28 23:31:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: liquid helium is significantly colder than liquid hydrogen it seems
4675 2011-06-28 23:31:49 <unclemantis> OMG
4676 2011-06-28 23:31:58 <unclemantis> BlueMatt that is awesome stuff!
4677 2011-06-28 23:32:32 <prof7bit> a change to the protocol that requires miners to pool millions of humans solving captchas all day long
4678 2011-06-28 23:32:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: iirc it is, ie its used at lhc et al for ridiculous applications where superconduction is necessary
4679 2011-06-28 23:33:09 AgoristRadio has joined
4680 2011-06-28 23:33:58 CheapScotsman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4681 2011-06-28 23:34:08 sacredchao has joined
4682 2011-06-28 23:34:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: btw, it seems there is no need to link to gthread
4683 2011-06-28 23:34:53 CheapScotsman has joined
4684 2011-06-28 23:35:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: iirc it is on some odd platforms
4685 2011-06-28 23:35:17 <sipa> still shows 'Encrypt wallet' here, btw
4686 2011-06-28 23:35:30 CheapScotsman has left ()
4687 2011-06-28 23:35:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: its on a different branch...
4688 2011-06-28 23:35:52 <sipa> ah, ok
4689 2011-06-28 23:36:00 <sipa> i assumed you did that in the original one
4690 2011-06-28 23:36:01 <BlueMatt> I started that to just do the dynamic rounds count, but decided to just do all non-blocker fixes there
4691 2011-06-28 23:36:08 <BlueMatt> its TheBlueMatt:timecryptorounds
4692 2011-06-28 23:36:14 <BlueMatt> I probably should not have done that...
4693 2011-06-28 23:36:20 <BlueMatt> oh well, too late now
4694 2011-06-28 23:39:04 DontMindMe has joined
4695 2011-06-28 23:39:06 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4696 2011-06-28 23:39:22 <jrmithdobbs> sipa / BlueMatt: here, rename it however you like, this'll work on linux/*bsd/osx/solaris for sure: https://gist.github.com/1052505
4697 2011-06-28 23:40:03 <jrmithdobbs> (tested on linux and osx already)
4698 2011-06-28 23:40:37 <jrmithdobbs> going home before someone else comes up and starts asking stuff ;p
4699 2011-06-28 23:41:25 <gmaxwell> oh ... the ReserveKeyFromKeyPool() : unknown key in key pool crash happens on the second run.
4700 2011-06-28 23:42:01 AgoristRadio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4701 2011-06-28 23:42:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, I fixed that
4702 2011-06-28 23:42:56 <gmaxwell> #@$#$$@#$@#$@#$ git
4703 2011-06-28 23:43:15 spidermon has joined
4704 2011-06-28 23:43:58 viggi has joined
4705 2011-06-28 23:45:31 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
4706 2011-06-28 23:45:37 <Diablo-D3> you know the inside of bitcoin decently, right?
4707 2011-06-28 23:45:56 <gmaxwell> Er. I've read the code. Or at least almost all of it.
4708 2011-06-28 23:46:19 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Whats up?
4709 2011-06-28 23:46:26 spidermon has quit (Client Quit)
4710 2011-06-28 23:46:43 ido___ has joined
4711 2011-06-28 23:46:43 AndyB1 is now known as AndyBr
4712 2011-06-28 23:46:52 <ido___> hi everyone
4713 2011-06-28 23:47:39 <BlueMatt> updated commit msgs, no changes to code (in case you guys are pulling)
4714 2011-06-28 23:47:44 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: what does bitcoind store when it sends a new getwork?
4715 2011-06-28 23:48:04 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: I'm guessing you want this patch https://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/commits/getwork_dedupe
4716 2011-06-28 23:48:17 <ido___> i'm writing a pool software. I have a question how can I find out when I need to pay to my miners. Is it when getwork(block) returns true?
4717 2011-06-28 23:48:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: Im not looking for a patch, Im trying to understand the behavior without having to read the code
4718 2011-06-28 23:48:34 <luke-jr> ido___: just use Eligius :P
4719 2011-06-28 23:48:48 <ido___> luke-jr, whats eligius?
4720 2011-06-28 23:48:55 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4721 2011-06-28 23:48:55 <luke-jr> ido___: http://eligius.st
4722 2011-06-28 23:48:56 <BlueMatt> ido___: his pool
4723 2011-06-28 23:49:05 <BlueMatt> ido___: have you looked at pushpoold?
4724 2011-06-28 23:49:23 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I want to be able to, basically, assemble a getwork inside the pool
4725 2011-06-28 23:49:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: how's the word list thing coming?
4726 2011-06-28 23:49:44 <ido___> i looked at pushpoold and also the php client for it
4727 2011-06-28 23:49:53 <ido___> but i'm missing something
4728 2011-06-28 23:49:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: I made some candiate word lists based on the prefix concept. Dunno
4729 2011-06-28 23:50:02 <sipa> hehe, ok
4730 2011-06-28 23:50:04 <ido___> it has been 10+ years since I wrote C hehe
4731 2011-06-28 23:50:55 B0g4r7 has joined
4732 2011-06-28 23:51:09 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: well, if you just want to increment the timestamp the pool can trivally do that. extra nonce requires rebuilding the mekel root which requires ... probably more than you want to put in a pool
4733 2011-06-28 23:51:18 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4734 2011-06-28 23:52:02 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: the data the node saves is indexed by the hashMerkleRoot... so you can have a whole bunch of prevblock/timestamp/nonce without going back to the daemon.
4735 2011-06-28 23:52:04 <ido___> also I did not get the reason to validate the block hash on getwork. Doesn't bitcoin allready doing it?
4736 2011-06-28 23:52:08 nhodges has joined
4737 2011-06-28 23:52:22 <gmaxwell> (though be careful you don't solve two blocks with the same root! hah)
4738 2011-06-28 23:52:40 <gmaxwell> ido___: protect bitcoin from ddos I assume.
4739 2011-06-28 23:52:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: actually, I want to be able to generate my own root.
4740 2011-06-28 23:53:04 <ido___> tnx gmaxwell
4741 2011-06-28 23:53:20 <ido___> is there a transaction id or something in the block hash?
4742 2011-06-28 23:53:43 <ido___> maybe I can use that to identify which users need to be paid
4743 2011-06-28 23:53:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: a single block header could easily be shared by multiple miners
4744 2011-06-28 23:54:33 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: e.g. increment extranonce in the pool?
4745 2011-06-28 23:54:54 <luke-jr> he probably wants Eligius payouts
4746 2011-06-28 23:56:56 kerx has joined
4747 2011-06-28 23:57:05 <ido___> also, I see difference between the pushpoold and the pool.py implementation. the pool.py calls the getblockcount and attach it to the getwork
4748 2011-06-28 23:57:08 <ido___> why is that?
4749 2011-06-28 23:58:07 <vegard> hrrm.. why does: fprintf(stderr, "%s\n", (CScript() << OP_DUP << OP_HASH160 << uint160("c634d8ba76465dde5ff02d6b7c1fa2c1f78a8337") << OP_EQUALVERIFY << OP_CHECKSIG).ToString().c_str()); print out OP_DUP OP_HASH160 37838af7c1a21f7c6b2df05fde5d4676bad834c6 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG? (notice how the uint160 got byte-swapped)
4750 2011-06-28 23:58:48 markio has joined
4751 2011-06-28 23:59:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah