1 2011-07-01 00:00:16 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no, cpu isn't pegged on either end
   2 2011-07-01 00:00:27 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: and this is over a lan?
   3 2011-07-01 00:00:34 <jrmithdobbs> nah, vpn
   4 2011-07-01 00:00:46 <sipa> disk io is bottleneck i suppose
   5 2011-07-01 00:00:58 <jrmithdobbs> not on receiving end i'm positive as it's an ssd ;p
   6 2011-07-01 00:01:02 <gmaxwell> oh oh. so latency might be an issue too.. lemme bring up a node
   7 2011-07-01 00:01:28 <jrmithdobbs> ya i'm connected to public wifi, and considering that, i deem that patch a success
   8 2011-07-01 00:01:38 xtalmath has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
   9 2011-07-01 00:01:57 <jrmithdobbs> because that node just caught up in <10 minutes when i've tried to catch it up ~5 times in the last few days and given up in disgust ;p
  10 2011-07-01 00:03:16 <jrmithdobbs> heading home, i'll test with a completely empty datadir in a bit
  11 2011-07-01 00:03:25 <sipa> i'll make a pull req tomorrow
  12 2011-07-01 00:03:33 <sipa> gnight
  13 2011-07-01 00:03:35 sipa has left ()
  14 2011-07-01 00:04:18 <jrmithdobbs> (also from a place that can be pushed to by that patched node at >20mbit)
  15 2011-07-01 00:04:21 tandy80 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  16 2011-07-01 00:05:22 callcc has joined
  17 2011-07-01 00:05:27 <gmaxwell> Well, was was going to try it on a local system... but my newenc system build seems to be having issues.
  18 2011-07-01 00:05:44 callcc has left ()
  19 2011-07-01 00:05:50 theorb has joined
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  21 2011-07-01 00:06:08 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  22 2011-07-01 00:06:56 <BlueMatt> ok, for 0.3.24, just upnp?, dnsseed, and sipa's fix?
  23 2011-07-01 00:07:02 Saab- has joined
  24 2011-07-01 00:07:04 <BlueMatt> oh, and that no-connections-up fix
  25 2011-07-01 00:07:30 <Graet> Diablo-D3 what is the top 10 in pools forum based on? ozcoin is 51.2 ghash this morn ars techinca claim 50...
  26 2011-07-01 00:07:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: try bringing up a newenc node with no ~/.bitcoin directory when you get a chance.
  27 2011-07-01 00:08:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: my builds are churning for a bit then bombing out with Bitcoin: Error loading wallet.dat
  28 2011-07-01 00:08:32 <Graet> the topic is locked so i cant ask in tehere and feel it would be a bit rude starting another thread just to get that question answered :P
  29 2011-07-01 00:09:20 MetaV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  30 2011-07-01 00:10:41 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: is the segfault fix in a pull request yet?
  31 2011-07-01 00:11:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: which segfault fix? the no-network-interfaces-up one? its already in master
  32 2011-07-01 00:11:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yeah, no-network-interfaces-up
  33 2011-07-01 00:11:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: in master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/ecd3e728b78255ec3af1c08de57d0abd27964780
  34 2011-07-01 00:12:06 <gmaxwell> er. this is bad:
  35 2011-07-01 00:12:06 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 ~]$ rmdir .bitcoin
  36 2011-07-01 00:12:07 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 ~]$ rmdir .bitcoin
  37 2011-07-01 00:12:07 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@kindle01 ~]$
  38 2011-07-01 00:12:15 <gmaxwell> it won't delete 0_o
  39 2011-07-01 00:12:33 <ersi> rm -rf .bitcoin/ same result?
  40 2011-07-01 00:12:51 <gmaxwell> Yes, that what I'd done originally and then was confused when it was still there.
  41 2011-07-01 00:13:01 <gaymobile> rm -rf ~ .bitcoin
  42 2011-07-01 00:13:11 <gmaxwell> gaymobile: don't be a jackass.
  43 2011-07-01 00:13:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: killall -9 bitcoin
  44 2011-07-01 00:13:23 <BlueMatt> and bitcoind
  45 2011-07-01 00:13:26 <gmaxwell> it's not running.
  46 2011-07-01 00:13:31 <BlueMatt> lsof | grep .bitcoin
  47 2011-07-01 00:13:41 <gmaxwell> Nothing, did that already too
  48 2011-07-01 00:13:46 <BlueMatt> uh...wtf?
  49 2011-07-01 00:14:12 <gmaxwell> $ uname -a
  50 2011-07-01 00:14:13 <gmaxwell> Linux kindle01 2.6.35.13-91.fc14.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue May 3 13:23:06 UTC 2011 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
  51 2011-07-01 00:14:23 <BlueMatt> wait, are you on a kindle?
  52 2011-07-01 00:14:27 <gmaxwell> hah no.
  53 2011-07-01 00:14:32 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  54 2011-07-01 00:14:34 <BlueMatt> damn, that would have been pimp
  55 2011-07-01 00:14:36 <Diablo-D3> [08:05:43] <Graet> Diablo-D3 what is the top 10 in pools forum based on? ozcoin is 51.2 ghash this morn ars techinca claim 50...
  56 2011-07-01 00:14:39 <BlueMatt> running bitcoin on my kindle ;)
  57 2011-07-01 00:14:41 <Diablo-D3> d10.
  58 2011-07-01 00:14:53 <gmaxwell> So either somekind of vfs cache corruption or a crazy rootkit?
  59 2011-07-01 00:15:12 <BlueMatt> ls -lha ~/.bitcoin shows any files in it?
  60 2011-07-01 00:15:27 <gmaxwell> No file.
  61 2011-07-01 00:15:30 <gmaxwell> er no files.
  62 2011-07-01 00:15:55 <Graet> Diablo-D3 ?
  63 2011-07-01 00:16:13 <Graet> curious what its based on, just Ghash?
  64 2011-07-01 00:16:19 <ersi> gmaxwell: gratz, you win the mystery award
  65 2011-07-01 00:16:25 <ersi> gmaxwell: care to reboot and try again?
  66 2011-07-01 00:16:26 spm_Draget has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  67 2011-07-01 00:16:26 <Diablo-D3> Graet: yeah
  68 2011-07-01 00:16:32 <ersi> gmaxwell: or going to single-user mode perhaps?
  69 2011-07-01 00:16:37 <gmaxwell> ersi: rebooting it...
  70 2011-07-01 00:16:39 spm_Draget has joined
  71 2011-07-01 00:16:42 <Diablo-D3> Graet: Im not going to fuck with it frequently
  72 2011-07-01 00:16:44 <Graet> cool is there a upto date listy or do you use apis?
  73 2011-07-01 00:17:19 <Graet> cool Diablo-D3 hoping to break into top 10!! nd i like the idea, just was curious about how it worked. ceers man :)
  74 2011-07-01 00:18:30 <Diablo-D3> I update it by hand
  75 2011-07-01 00:18:32 <Diablo-D3> its just stickies
  76 2011-07-01 00:18:48 <Diablo-D3> pools can update their own topic headers themselves
  77 2011-07-01 00:18:56 <gmaxwell> ersi: it removed now.
  78 2011-07-01 00:19:22 <Graet> fair enough , cheers Diablo-D3 good work :D
  79 2011-07-01 00:19:36 <Diablo-D3> btw, the list isnt definitive
  80 2011-07-01 00:19:52 <Graet> moving to new server today so will worry about it more after hashrate recovers from move lol
  81 2011-07-01 00:20:01 <Diablo-D3> just because you're not stickied doesnt mean you arent in the top 10
  82 2011-07-01 00:20:06 <Graet> thats cool Diablo-D3 just trying to get in there :D
  83 2011-07-01 00:20:17 <Graet> (and hopefully stay) ;)
  84 2011-07-01 00:20:37 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
  85 2011-07-01 00:20:38 <gribble> 134124
  86 2011-07-01 00:21:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok updated https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/368
  87 2011-07-01 00:21:11 <ersi> gmaxwell: maybe there was some fd's left or something..
  88 2011-07-01 00:21:14 <ersi> gmaxwell: fucking weird
  89 2011-07-01 00:21:24 <BlueMatt> yea, no shit
  90 2011-07-01 00:21:32 <gmaxwell> ersi: but nothing in lsof.
  91 2011-07-01 00:21:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you just rebooted it, or remounted or what workd?
  92 2011-07-01 00:21:42 <BlueMatt> e
  93 2011-07-01 00:22:00 <gmaxwell> rebooted. damn.. still error loading wallet.dat.. lemme try head.
  94 2011-07-01 00:23:08 <jgarzik> what is the status of wallet import/export?
  95 2011-07-01 00:23:39 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: "TODO: known wrong balance cached when importing keys"
  96 2011-07-01 00:23:41 Lexa has joined
  97 2011-07-01 00:23:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: aside from that, i think its getting close
  98 2011-07-01 00:24:20 puhc has joined
  99 2011-07-01 00:24:46 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 100 2011-07-01 00:25:56 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, so my checkout of newenc+account fixes can't startup totall virgin. I thought I'd tested that already. _/
 101 2011-07-01 00:26:02 <gmaxwell> s/totall/totally/
 102 2011-07-01 00:26:23 <BlueMatt> newenc I just tested, let me go check with account fixes
 103 2011-07-01 00:26:33 subpar has joined
 104 2011-07-01 00:26:33 subpar has quit (Changing host)
 105 2011-07-01 00:26:33 subpar has joined
 106 2011-07-01 00:26:47 <BlueMatt> but let me look through and ack account fixes first
 107 2011-07-01 00:26:53 <gmaxwell> I'll bisect in a bit if you don't find it right away.
 108 2011-07-01 00:29:15 <BlueMatt> well his last commit is not appearing on github...500 wtf?
 109 2011-07-01 00:29:30 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 110 2011-07-01 00:29:52 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 111 2011-07-01 00:30:57 SecretSJ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 112 2011-07-01 00:33:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea it happens with just the address book stuff, so it has nothing to do with crypto
 113 2011-07-01 00:34:04 <gmaxwell> Yea, I must have tested that case with crypto prior to applying the address book stuff.
 114 2011-07-01 00:34:09 <gmaxwell> Thanks for checking.
 115 2011-07-01 00:34:21 WildSoil has joined
 116 2011-07-01 00:34:51 <gmaxwell> ;bc,blocks
 117 2011-07-01 00:34:54 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
 118 2011-07-01 00:34:55 <gribble> 134129
 119 2011-07-01 00:35:06 <BlueMatt> damn, I just fell in love with dnsseed, by the time the GUI is open, it has 2 connections
 120 2011-07-01 00:35:11 <BlueMatt> -dnsseed -noirc
 121 2011-07-01 00:35:24 <WildSoil> can somebody tell me estrimated time for difficult increase
 122 2011-07-01 00:35:30 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
 123 2011-07-01 00:35:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134129 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 942 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 16 hours, 51 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1574918.71198404
 124 2011-07-01 00:36:30 mtrlt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 125 2011-07-01 00:36:50 BTCTrader is now known as BTCTrader_away
 126 2011-07-01 00:36:50 sanity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 127 2011-07-01 00:36:51 mtrlt has joined
 128 2011-07-01 00:36:52 <gmaxwell> So -connect= with a busy local node is syncing for me at 332 blocks per second.
 129 2011-07-01 00:36:56 sanity has joined
 130 2011-07-01 00:36:59 <gmaxwell> I think thats pretty good.
 131 2011-07-01 00:37:28 pyro-DerWahre- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 132 2011-07-01 00:37:33 <phantomcircuit> 332 blocks/second?
 133 2011-07-01 00:37:37 <phantomcircuit> that's very fast
 134 2011-07-01 00:37:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: ar around height 40-60k.
 135 2011-07-01 00:37:50 slush1 has joined
 136 2011-07-01 00:37:51 <phantomcircuit> oh
 137 2011-07-01 00:37:53 <phantomcircuit> never mind
 138 2011-07-01 00:37:55 <phantomcircuit> that's slow
 139 2011-07-01 00:38:09 <phantomcircuit> there aren't any transactions in the block chain until you get to about 100k
 140 2011-07-01 00:38:14 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  got the latest to compile...  so, how do I (f)re(e)base?
 141 2011-07-01 00:39:00 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, well 2.3ghz core, not a super fast machine.  I'm timing a complete syncup.
 142 2011-07-01 00:39:12 <xelister> phantomcircuit: no that sucks
 143 2011-07-01 00:39:24 <xelister> btw so what is a fastest way to have 2nd node on same machine?
 144 2011-07-01 00:40:05 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 148 2011-07-01 00:40:49 <phantomcircuit> xelister, you need to run 2 nodes on 1 machine?
 149 2011-07-01 00:40:51 <phantomcircuit> copypasta
 150 2011-07-01 00:41:30 <xelister> phantomcircuit: yeap
 151 2011-07-01 00:41:32 <xelister> well I tried
 152 2011-07-01 00:41:43 <xelister> $ ./bitcoind -server -port 8334 -rpcport 8332
 153 2011-07-01 00:41:44 <xelister> fServer=1
 154 2011-07-01 00:41:45 <xelister> error: incorrect rpcuser or rpcpassword (authorization failed)
 155 2011-07-01 00:42:00 <xelister> why is it trying to run in execute-RPC mode instead of start-daemon mode even with -server and fServer=1
 156 2011-07-01 00:42:03 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 157 2011-07-01 00:42:11 RobinPKR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 158 2011-07-01 00:42:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I wonder if now that we have the 5MB limit if we shouldn't increase the number of blocks passed? I guess I'll measure that.
 159 2011-07-01 00:42:45 <phantomcircuit> 5MB limit?
 160 2011-07-01 00:42:48 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 161 2011-07-01 00:43:28 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: getblocks response stops at 5mbytes data in addition to the 500 block limit so that nodes don't get flooded off.
 162 2011-07-01 00:43:47 <phantomcircuit> lol
 163 2011-07-01 00:43:52 <phantomcircuit> ffs just trust the os
 164 2011-07-01 00:44:00 <phantomcircuit> they already have algorithms to handle this
 165 2011-07-01 00:44:02 <phantomcircuit> and they work
 166 2011-07-01 00:44:05 RobinPKR has joined
 167 2011-07-01 00:44:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they don't provide for anti-DOS.
 168 2011-07-01 00:44:27 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
 169 2011-07-01 00:44:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134129 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 942 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 16 hours, 51 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1574918.71198404
 170 2011-07-01 00:44:42 <xelister> really?
 171 2011-07-01 00:44:43 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, last i checked linux will reduce the receive buffer if it thinks it's being flooded
 172 2011-07-01 00:44:47 <xelister> noone here knows how to start 2nd node ?!
 173 2011-07-01 00:44:57 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, great, this is for sending.
 174 2011-07-01 00:46:39 OneFixt_ has joined
 175 2011-07-01 00:47:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, trying to protect upload bandwidth?
 176 2011-07-01 00:47:12 OneFixt_ has quit (Changing host)
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 179 2011-07-01 00:47:47 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 180 2011-07-01 00:47:49 underscor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 181 2011-07-01 00:48:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: preventing someone from just connecting and pulling tons and tons of data constantly in order to thrash cpu/disk/network.
 182 2011-07-01 00:48:59 <phantomcircuit> i would say tit4tat
 183 2011-07-01 00:49:05 <phantomcircuit> but that isn't likely to happen
 184 2011-07-01 00:49:53 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 185 2011-07-01 00:50:07 <gmaxwell> Not really applicable to the bitcoin forwarding model (and would also break new node bringup too)
 186 2011-07-01 00:51:36 denisx has joined
 187 2011-07-01 00:54:29 Guest39365 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 188 2011-07-01 00:55:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, download/verification should be separate
 189 2011-07-01 00:56:43 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 190 2011-07-01 00:57:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: once you're in sync why bother storing something which fails to validate?
 191 2011-07-01 00:59:06 BlueMatt has joined
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 195 2011-07-01 01:01:31 Fairuser is now known as AFK!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser
 196 2011-07-01 01:01:50 skeledrew1 has joined
 197 2011-07-01 01:01:54 <unclemantis> is setting up bitcoin client with socks proxy pointing to Vidalia's port 8118 add additional anonomosy or is it even make a differnce?
 198 2011-07-01 01:02:15 <BlueMatt> not really
 199 2011-07-01 01:02:17 <unclemantis> am i just causing unnessasary additional traffic?
 200 2011-07-01 01:02:17 <BlueMatt> only sort of
 201 2011-07-01 01:02:42 <BlueMatt> sort of
 202 2011-07-01 01:02:50 <unclemantis> I have Crome going through 8118 right now and I am going through all my applications and redirecting to 8118
 203 2011-07-01 01:03:02 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 204 2011-07-01 01:04:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the validation takes longer the the download, if during the initial download you were getting blocks from whom ever had them it would spread the load around
 205 2011-07-01 01:04:15 <gaymobile> 8118 more like 1818, amirite?
 206 2011-07-01 01:04:23 <unclemantis> ??
 207 2011-07-01 01:05:03 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  I'm ready to rebase...
 208 2011-07-01 01:05:08 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 209 2011-07-01 01:05:14 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: someone who monitored your internet connection could determined any sends you originated, if you don't use tor.
 210 2011-07-01 01:05:32 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 211 2011-07-01 01:05:34 <gmaxwell> unclemantis: on the flip side, tor will make it bitcoin slower and potentially less reliable.
 212 2011-07-01 01:07:31 pogden has joined
 213 2011-07-01 01:07:42 <unclemantis> ok
 214 2011-07-01 01:08:04 <unclemantis> is sending uTorrent through socks4 do the same thing as bitcoin? useless?
 215 2011-07-01 01:08:27 <BlueMatt> oh god dong torrent on tor
 216 2011-07-01 01:08:35 <BlueMatt> thats evil
 217 2011-07-01 01:08:39 <unclemantis> LOL!!!!!
 218 2011-07-01 01:08:47 <gmaxwell> Yea, don't run torrent on tor.
 219 2011-07-01 01:08:57 <BlueMatt> but seriously, never torrent over tor
 220 2011-07-01 01:09:02 <gmaxwell> It shits on all the tor users who need to use the service for more important reasons.
 221 2011-07-01 01:09:11 <BlueMatt> it eats cpu and network on tor nodes and slows the network way down for everyone
 222 2011-07-01 01:09:13 <unclemantis> may explain why shit hit the fan in Chrome just now
 223 2011-07-01 01:09:30 <unclemantis> oh ya, that is what it was LOL
 224 2011-07-01 01:09:51 <gaymobile>  < gmaxwell> It shits on all the tor users who need to use the service for more important reasons.
 225 2011-07-01 01:09:51 <unclemantis> for now i will just stick with Chrome
 226 2011-07-01 01:09:54 <gaymobile> like downloading cp?
 227 2011-07-01 01:09:58 <gmaxwell> Okay. Tada. 34.5 minutes for a completely new node syncup.
 228 2011-07-01 01:10:01 <gaymobile> i cant think of any legit reason to use tor
 229 2011-07-01 01:10:02 <gaymobile> ever
 230 2011-07-01 01:10:13 <BlueMatt> gaymobile: if you are in china and need to use the internet?
 231 2011-07-01 01:10:20 <unclemantis> connect to the Silk Road service? LOL
 232 2011-07-01 01:10:22 <BlueMatt> or in lybia or iran
 233 2011-07-01 01:10:28 <BlueMatt> or, or, or
 234 2011-07-01 01:10:37 <gmaxwell> gaymobile: If you're law enforcement and want to arrest people creating child porn, for example.
 235 2011-07-01 01:10:38 <b4epoche_> or help me rebase ;-)
 236 2011-07-01 01:10:40 <gaymobile> who cares about useless 3rd world countries not having internet
 237 2011-07-01 01:10:55 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: sorry, vm troubles here, gonna be a minute
 238 2011-07-01 01:10:56 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 239 2011-07-01 01:11:07 <BlueMatt> gaymobile: wow you are a douchebag
 240 2011-07-01 01:11:12 <b4epoche_> okay...  thought maybe I was being /ignored ;-)
 241 2011-07-01 01:11:31 <gmaxwell> gaymobile: are you only in here to troll btw?  My logs appear to indicate that you've never said anything relevant to bitcoin development.
 242 2011-07-01 01:11:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: this is the same as the dongs person.
 243 2011-07-01 01:12:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I do kickban eventually...just takes me a while
 244 2011-07-01 01:13:24 amiller has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 245 2011-07-01 01:13:57 Lobster_Man has joined
 246 2011-07-01 01:15:41 <gmaxwell> So increasing the getblocks count from 500 to 5000 seriously speeds up getting to 60k or so.
 247 2011-07-01 01:15:55 <neofutur> BlueMatt: would you like to have stats for this channel like i do it for -otc :
 248 2011-07-01 01:16:00 <neofutur> http://otclogs.ww7.be/bitcoin-otc.week.php
 249 2011-07-01 01:17:00 MtGox_Adam has joined
 250 2011-07-01 01:17:03 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 251 2011-07-01 01:17:41 Pinion has joined
 252 2011-07-01 01:18:04 <BlueMatt> neofutur: sure, if you want to, looks cool
 253 2011-07-01 01:18:10 <BlueMatt> not sure what purpose it really has, but looks cool
 254 2011-07-01 01:18:33 <Diablo-D3> https://mtgox.com/press_release_20110630.html
 255 2011-07-01 01:18:38 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 256 2011-07-01 01:18:40 Moonies has joined
 257 2011-07-01 01:18:45 Leo_II1 has joined
 258 2011-07-01 01:18:46 <neofutur> as an example its to see the irc schedule of someone
 259 2011-07-01 01:18:56 <BlueMatt> well that could be useful
 260 2011-07-01 01:18:59 <neofutur> for ops its also useful to see the most posted links
 261 2011-07-01 01:19:08 <neofutur> or someone advertising child porn . . .
 262 2011-07-01 01:19:18 <neofutur> ok i ll add the -dev to my bot
 263 2011-07-01 01:19:59 spaola has joined
 264 2011-07-01 01:20:00 <b4epoche_> neofutur:  can you add 'percent off topic'?
 265 2011-07-01 01:20:26 Leo_II has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 266 2011-07-01 01:20:51 <neofutur> not easy to judge what is offtopic or not, even for a human .. .
 267 2011-07-01 01:20:59 karnac has joined
 268 2011-07-01 01:21:02 <b4epoche_> I know, j/k
 269 2011-07-01 01:21:30 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: ok, now that I got that...how far are you?
 270 2011-07-01 01:21:48 <b4epoche_> in a rebase?
 271 2011-07-01 01:22:00 <jgarzik> justmoon: where/when in Switzerland is this September bitcoin meetup?
 272 2011-07-01 01:22:03 <BlueMatt> so you did all those commits and such from earlier?
 273 2011-07-01 01:22:15 enquirer has joined
 274 2011-07-01 01:22:26 <b4epoche_> committed earlier today
 275 2011-07-01 01:22:26 <BlueMatt> wait, September bitcoin meetup in Switzerland?
 276 2011-07-01 01:22:33 <b4epoche_> and called it b1
 277 2011-07-01 01:22:46 Incitatus has joined
 278 2011-07-01 01:22:49 <BlueMatt> keep forgetting your github user?
 279 2011-07-01 01:22:53 <BlueMatt> what is it?
 280 2011-07-01 01:23:04 <b4epoche_> ericmock
 281 2011-07-01 01:23:28 <BlueMatt> committed what earlier today, I dont see it
 282 2011-07-01 01:23:43 <BlueMatt> did you foget to push?
 283 2011-07-01 01:24:11 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 284 2011-07-01 01:24:11 Donald__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 285 2011-07-01 01:24:14 Moonies has quit (Quit: quack)
 286 2011-07-01 01:24:46 <b4epoche_> 0.3 branch
 287 2011-07-01 01:24:47 Evious has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 288 2011-07-01 01:24:54 <BlueMatt> oh
 289 2011-07-01 01:25:17 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 290 2011-07-01 01:25:28 <BlueMatt> oh, so this is the stuff from 0.3 branch
 291 2011-07-01 01:25:36 <BlueMatt> so now you want to rebase onto 0.4/latest head no?
 292 2011-07-01 01:25:46 <b4epoche_> yea, (I think)
 293 2011-07-01 01:25:49 rich_ has quit (Quit: rich_)
 294 2011-07-01 01:25:58 <b4epoche_> I d/l'd the latest from github and got it to compile
 295 2011-07-01 01:25:59 <BlueMatt> BlueMatt> well, git fetch upstream; git checkout master; git reset --hard upstream/master will get your source tree to the absolute latest, from there, apply whatever it took to get it to compile, git commit -a; then add the cocoa stuff, then git add src/cocoa; git commit -a and git push -f
 296 2011-07-01 01:26:05 <BlueMatt> 1 sec lemme reconnect
 297 2011-07-01 01:26:11 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 298 2011-07-01 01:26:43 BlueMatt has joined
 299 2011-07-01 01:27:36 <BlueMatt> ok, did that?
 300 2011-07-01 01:27:54 <b4epoche_> eh...  was waiting for you to reconnect
 301 2011-07-01 01:27:58 <justmoon> jgarzik, september would be in geneva
 302 2011-07-01 01:28:00 <BlueMatt> BlueMatt> well, git fetch upstream; git checkout master; git reset --hard upstream/master will get your source tree to the absolute latest, from there, apply whatever it took to get it to compile, git commit -a; then add the cocoa stuff, then git add src/cocoa; git commit -a and git push -f
 303 2011-07-01 01:28:01 <BlueMatt> do that
 304 2011-07-01 01:28:04 <b4epoche_> thought there was more coming
 305 2011-07-01 01:28:09 <BlueMatt> no, sorry
 306 2011-07-01 01:28:44 spaola has left ()
 307 2011-07-01 01:29:27 <jgarzik> justmoon: date?
 308 2011-07-01 01:29:42 <jgarzik> September is a big month :)
 309 2011-07-01 01:30:17 spaola has joined
 310 2011-07-01 01:31:02 kunnis has joined
 311 2011-07-01 01:31:11 <justmoon> we haven't got a date yet, it's always saturdays, so pick your favorite
 312 2011-07-01 01:31:31 <justmoon> if you're considering coming we'd definitely accomodate whatever date is convenient for you
 313 2011-07-01 01:31:43 <jgarzik> justmoon: discussing w/ wife and trying to plan
 314 2011-07-01 01:31:52 <justmoon> yeah, pick a saturday i'd say
 315 2011-07-01 01:32:43 <justmoon> september is also going to be the first one where jon matonis will attend, so good choice :)
 316 2011-07-01 01:33:18 BitcoinForNewegg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 317 2011-07-01 01:33:29 takezo420 has joined
 318 2011-07-01 01:33:58 Beremaat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 319 2011-07-01 01:34:03 <BlueMatt> " Head Currency Trader at VISA"?
 320 2011-07-01 01:34:04 <BlueMatt> damn
 321 2011-07-01 01:34:33 <gmaxwell> hm?
 322 2011-07-01 01:35:17 <justmoon> BlueMatt, whereabouts in germany are you again?
 323 2011-07-01 01:35:31 <BlueMatt> justmoon: frankfurt, but only till august, then north carolina
 324 2011-07-01 01:35:46 BitcoinForNewegg has joined
 325 2011-07-01 01:35:49 <justmoon> oh wow, is the move bitcoin-related?
 326 2011-07-01 01:35:54 <BlueMatt> no
 327 2011-07-01 01:35:57 <BlueMatt> college-realted
 328 2011-07-01 01:35:58 <justmoon> kk
 329 2011-07-01 01:37:17 lumos has joined
 330 2011-07-01 01:38:30 falafell has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 331 2011-07-01 01:38:56 falafell has joined
 332 2011-07-01 01:39:19 <BlueMatt> ok, Im off for tonight, can I get ack/nacks/votes on the 0.3.24 list
 333 2011-07-01 01:39:49 wardearia has joined
 334 2011-07-01 01:39:53 DukeOfURL has joined
 335 2011-07-01 01:39:56 <justmoon> I'm in favor of all three
 336 2011-07-01 01:40:00 <xelister> BlueMatt: including export/import privkeys would be nice
 337 2011-07-01 01:40:05 <justmoon> not sure if my opinion matters ;)
 338 2011-07-01 01:40:35 <BlueMatt> xelister: thats not even working yet
 339 2011-07-01 01:40:40 <BlueMatt> well 100% working
 340 2011-07-01 01:40:51 <BlueMatt> plus thats CWallet which is not for 0.3.24
 341 2011-07-01 01:40:52 <xelister> then just exporting?
 342 2011-07-01 01:41:08 <BlueMatt> 0.3.24 is minor fixup release
 343 2011-07-01 01:41:13 <BlueMatt> not major feature change release
 344 2011-07-01 01:41:14 denisx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 345 2011-07-01 01:41:31 denisx has joined
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 347 2011-07-01 01:42:13 wolfspraul has joined
 348 2011-07-01 01:43:03 ewal has joined
 349 2011-07-01 01:46:20 scott` has joined
 350 2011-07-01 01:46:30 <justmoon> how does the official client handle it when multiple transactions have the same hash?
 351 2011-07-01 01:46:59 scott` is now known as Guest94268
 352 2011-07-01 01:48:07 <xelister> justmoon: how would that be possible? you mean a collision? that is totally unlikely
 353 2011-07-01 01:48:35 <folklore> no known sha-256 hash collisions
 354 2011-07-01 01:48:43 dvide has quit ()
 355 2011-07-01 01:49:00 <folklore> sha-256 is part of the sha2 family, theres still sha-512 notsure why bitcoin doesn't use that
 356 2011-07-01 01:49:08 <folklore> and the sha3 family being worked on now too
 357 2011-07-01 01:49:17 <justmoon> xelister: nah, not a collision, just two transactions being the same
 358 2011-07-01 01:49:24 <justmoon> there are a couple of examples in the block chain
 359 2011-07-01 01:49:29 <justmoon> like three or so
 360 2011-07-01 01:49:51 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 361 2011-07-01 01:50:03 <justmoon> only custom clients create those, I think coinbase transactions with same extranonce and same recipient address are one example
 362 2011-07-01 01:50:18 <jine> *note* Bitcoins.lc is giving out free invites to members *note* :)
 363 2011-07-01 01:50:23 <jine> Err... Google+ invites*
 364 2011-07-01 01:50:23 <jine> :D
 365 2011-07-01 01:51:57 storrgie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 366 2011-07-01 01:51:58 <BlueMatt> justmoon: a. your opinion will matter when idiots start saying "upnp is a security risk and should never be enabled by default" b. how to make you opinion matter more: voice it more ;)
 367 2011-07-01 01:52:01 noagendamarket has joined
 368 2011-07-01 01:52:40 <gmaxwell> Yea.. okay.. after increasing nLimit from 500 to 5000 it took 33 minutes. Not that much of a speedup overall, as it doesn't do much for the recent blocks.
 369 2011-07-01 01:52:52 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: where do you have a .24 thread?
 370 2011-07-01 01:52:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: mailing list
 371 2011-07-01 01:53:01 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|Dinner
 372 2011-07-01 01:53:11 <justmoon> BlueMatt, doesn't feel right to contribute one's opinion and not contribute any code :)
 373 2011-07-01 01:53:13 <gmaxwell> ah, not on development?
 374 2011-07-01 01:53:47 <gmaxwell> hmph.
 375 2011-07-01 01:53:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: na, I dont bother with that anymore...too many idiots and trolls, I post important things there, but release engineering of minor bugfix releases doesnt count
 376 2011-07-01 01:53:55 <gmaxwell> I'm not getting mail from the lists.
 377 2011-07-01 01:54:03 eoss has joined
 378 2011-07-01 01:54:08 <BlueMatt> plus that forum is set to be disowned
 379 2011-07-01 01:54:10 <justmoon> I mostly read the development forum for gmaxwells posts actually :D
 380 2011-07-01 01:54:13 <BlueMatt> ie moved off *.bitcoin.org
 381 2011-07-01 01:54:27 <folklore> why
 382 2011-07-01 01:54:38 <BlueMatt> because it gives bitcoin a very bad image overall
 383 2011-07-01 01:54:47 <BlueMatt> esp the illegal stuff all over the place
 384 2011-07-01 01:54:53 <cacheson> BlueMatt: any idea when that's supposed to happen?
 385 2011-07-01 01:54:54 el_bb has joined
 386 2011-07-01 01:54:55 <justmoon> BlueMatt, that still hasn't happened has it? malmi should have just used forum.weusecoins.com - would be done by now. just sayin
 387 2011-07-01 01:55:11 <folklore> can you instead consider new forum rules instead of getting rid of it out right? right now is a privital time for bitcoin
 388 2011-07-01 01:55:16 <BlueMatt> cacheson: what 0.3.24? well considering I just suggested it tonight...middle of next week?
 389 2011-07-01 01:55:17 <folklore> people really need a place like those forums
 390 2011-07-01 01:55:24 <justmoon> folklore, forum will still exist don't worry
 391 2011-07-01 01:55:25 <cacheson> BlueMatt: no, the forum move
 392 2011-07-01 01:55:27 <justmoon> just different url
 393 2011-07-01 01:55:28 <el_bb> how come #bitcoing on irc.lfnet.org is empty?
 394 2011-07-01 01:55:34 <el_bb> -g
 395 2011-07-01 01:55:43 <folklore> the people need an official forums
 396 2011-07-01 01:56:02 <BlueMatt> cacheson: no idea, jgarzik bought bitcointalk.org for it, but sirius hasnt set it up yet
 397 2011-07-01 01:56:31 <BlueMatt> el_bb: I noticed that too, its not actually empty though, just not responding to /list iirc
 398 2011-07-01 01:56:35 <cacheson> folklore: I don't see why they have to be official
 399 2011-07-01 01:56:45 <noagendamarket> bitcoin needs a professional support forum or customer support
 400 2011-07-01 01:56:50 <BlueMatt> though there are clients there and they do get notified when they rebroadcast that they are there
 401 2011-07-01 01:56:50 <jgarzik> waiting on sirius
 402 2011-07-01 01:57:16 <BlueMatt> noagendamarket: for floss? since when is there professional support?
 403 2011-07-01 01:57:22 storrgie has joined
 404 2011-07-01 01:57:24 <BlueMatt> if somone needs real help, they can come here ;)
 405 2011-07-01 01:57:27 <el_bb> BlueMatt: ah i see, makes sense
 406 2011-07-01 01:57:37 <xelister> BlueMatt: ubuntu-canonical?
 407 2011-07-01 01:57:46 <xelister> some may say it is not pro. ;) but better then nothing
 408 2011-07-01 01:57:52 oozyburglar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 409 2011-07-01 01:57:56 MtGox_Adam has quit (Quit: MtGox_Adam)
 410 2011-07-01 01:57:57 <denisx> has someone reviewed the IncrementExtraNonce patch for bitcoind from luke dash jr.?
 411 2011-07-01 01:58:09 <folklore> most people interested in just the money aspect of bitcoin don't care about technical and probably aren't familiar with IRC or bitcoins presence here
 412 2011-07-01 01:58:14 <BlueMatt> xelister: that is an os, not one piece of software, anyway Id love to...if we had anywhere near the resources for that
 413 2011-07-01 01:58:22 <BlueMatt> xelister: anyway, Im off to bed (finally)
 414 2011-07-01 01:58:25 <noagendamarket> BlueMatt not every floss is a currency :)
 415 2011-07-01 01:58:27 <bittwist> night
 416 2011-07-01 01:58:33 <xelister> BlueMatt: ok do I pay before?  u wait for confirmations?
 417 2011-07-01 01:58:41 <folklore> bitcoin isn't just a geeks hobby project anymore, is a serious project, that could change the face of the financial sector for the entire planet, that's a big demographic
 418 2011-07-01 01:58:44 <BlueMatt> xelister: what?
 419 2011-07-01 01:58:54 callcc has joined
 420 2011-07-01 01:58:54 <xelister> >_>  donating to a bounty ofcourse
 421 2011-07-01 01:59:24 <BlueMatt> folklore: yea...dont count your chickens when you hardly have an egg
 422 2011-07-01 01:59:30 <xelister> folklore: I wonder if at such stage the "waste" of electricity will not become a prolbem..
 423 2011-07-01 01:59:36 <BlueMatt> xelister: lol, ok then
 424 2011-07-01 01:59:54 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 425 2011-07-01 01:59:57 <xelister> BlueMatt: yeap that is totally what I ment >_> bye
 426 2011-07-01 02:00:31 tltRipley has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 427 2011-07-01 02:00:40 <folklore> BlueMatt do you not agree the popularity of bitcoin has drastically increased recently? all the sites popping up that accept/or somehow associate with bitcoin? the references on cnn and other big places, the 6 channels here with 400-700 people
 428 2011-07-01 02:00:48 <folklore> the 100k users on mtgox or whatever it was
 429 2011-07-01 02:00:52 Beremat has joined
 430 2011-07-01 02:01:02 <xelister> folklore: I wonder how many users there are
 431 2011-07-01 02:01:12 <xelister> wait, isnt there a site with list
 432 2011-07-01 02:01:16 <folklore> well theres over 6 million bitcoins
 433 2011-07-01 02:01:19 <folklore> so i'd say quite a bit
 434 2011-07-01 02:01:23 WildSoil has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 435 2011-07-01 02:01:23 JFK911 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 436 2011-07-01 02:01:38 <folklore> ;;bc,stats
 437 2011-07-01 02:01:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134136 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 935 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 16 hours, 36 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1572285.95369349
 438 2011-07-01 02:01:50 <xelister> folklore: not sure what number of btc have to do with # of users
 439 2011-07-01 02:02:14 <folklore> xelister it shows the amount of activity, given how hard it is to generate bitcoins as it increases
 440 2011-07-01 02:02:16 Beremat has quit (Client Quit)
 441 2011-07-01 02:02:18 JFK911 has joined
 442 2011-07-01 02:02:24 <folklore> 6 million in 2 and a half years is a lot
 443 2011-07-01 02:02:25 Beremat has joined
 444 2011-07-01 02:02:29 <folklore> almost 7 million
 445 2011-07-01 02:02:53 <xelister> folklore: well the amount of BTC is basically known, pre programmed. you would have similar amount of BTC even with just 2 users, just the diff would be low
 446 2011-07-01 02:03:02 <xelister> difficulty
 447 2011-07-01 02:03:04 shLONG has joined
 448 2011-07-01 02:03:18 <xelister> and diff, while impressive, just realtes to number of *miners* and there can be say x100 more users
 449 2011-07-01 02:03:23 <xelister> or x10 less or wahtever
 450 2011-07-01 02:03:27 <folklore> sure, but the difficult imho is quite high, also you guys have thousands of nodes, that's more than Tor
 451 2011-07-01 02:03:34 <folklore> they have about a 1000 exit nodes
 452 2011-07-01 02:03:37 <xelister> yea
 453 2011-07-01 02:03:37 <folklore> and been around awhile
 454 2011-07-01 02:03:49 <xelister> freenet has ~15,000 nodes (for comparsion)
 455 2011-07-01 02:04:12 <cacheson> folklore: still, none of this has any bearing on whether bitcoin.org should have an official forum
 456 2011-07-01 02:04:23 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 457 2011-07-01 02:04:34 TheSeven has joined
 458 2011-07-01 02:04:39 <folklore> cacheson Tor has a professional,stupid easy, very informative site, they don't have a forum, but they should
 459 2011-07-01 02:04:40 <cacheson> much less an official general-purpose discussion forum
 460 2011-07-01 02:04:49 <cacheson> folklore: why should they?
 461 2011-07-01 02:05:14 <folklore> bitcoin is an ever increasing in popularity tech and people have a lot of questions, the forums allow people to come together, share time, energy, resources to help grow the bitcoin community
 462 2011-07-01 02:05:22 <folklore> blockexplorer probably wouldn't exist if not for the forums
 463 2011-07-01 02:05:25 <cacheson> folklore: they can do that on unofficial forums
 464 2011-07-01 02:05:33 <folklore> it's not the same
 465 2011-07-01 02:05:41 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 466 2011-07-01 02:05:49 <cacheson> of course it's not the same, that's the idea
 467 2011-07-01 02:05:51 WildSoil has joined
 468 2011-07-01 02:05:57 <cacheson> unofficial forums aren't such a giant troll magnet
 469 2011-07-01 02:06:22 <justmoon> I don't think the forums will change very much - if at all
 470 2011-07-01 02:06:35 <Diablo-D3> bullsit
 471 2011-07-01 02:06:36 <Diablo-D3> yes they are
 472 2011-07-01 02:06:38 <Diablo-D3> example
 473 2011-07-01 02:06:39 <Diablo-D3> gimeee
 474 2011-07-01 02:07:08 <justmoon> gimeee?
 475 2011-07-01 02:07:39 <tower> gimme lol
 476 2011-07-01 02:07:57 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 477 2011-07-01 02:08:05 <justmoon> tower, there is a user called GimEEE on the forums, but no idea what Diablo-D3 is talking about
 478 2011-07-01 02:08:20 <Diablo-D3> justmoon: are you retarded?
 479 2011-07-01 02:08:25 <justmoon> no
 480 2011-07-01 02:08:26 <Diablo-D3> theres only one gimeee
 481 2011-07-01 02:08:27 <Diablo-D3> thats hi
 482 2011-07-01 02:08:28 <folklore> so you let a few bad apples ruin everything? that's non-sense, set new rules and enforce them, need help? get some more mods
 483 2011-07-01 02:08:31 <folklore> sure plenty ready to help
 484 2011-07-01 02:08:31 <Diablo-D3> *him
 485 2011-07-01 02:08:38 tltRipley has joined
 486 2011-07-01 02:08:43 <Diablo-D3> folklore: theymos wont ban him
 487 2011-07-01 02:08:49 Blitzboom_ has joined
 488 2011-07-01 02:08:50 <folklore> don't make everyone suffer because you want to fold like a lawn chair to the bullies and trouble makers
 489 2011-07-01 02:09:30 <cacheson> folklore: there are a lot more than just "a few bad apples" on the bitcoin forum
 490 2011-07-01 02:09:35 <folklore> nothing worth doing is easy
 491 2011-07-01 02:09:44 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, I said that moving the forum to a different domain won't change anything with respect to troll activity, your response was "gimeee" - I do not follow your argument
 492 2011-07-01 02:09:46 <cacheson> folklore: and you can say what you like about setting and enforcing new rules, but it hasn't been happening
 493 2011-07-01 02:10:01 <folklore> cacheson why not? whos in charge
 494 2011-07-01 02:10:07 stalled has joined
 495 2011-07-01 02:10:12 <cacheson> folklore: sirius, I believe
 496 2011-07-01 02:10:19 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 497 2011-07-01 02:10:20 <folklore> it's not rocket science, first you send a loud and clear warning, so all members see it
 498 2011-07-01 02:10:28 <gmaxwell> justmoon: past discussions in here convinced me that the troll activity is mostly a leadership problem.
 499 2011-07-01 02:10:31 <folklore> those that continue to violate, maybe warn them again in pm, or temp ban
 500 2011-07-01 02:10:34 <Diablo-D3> justmoon: dude, I just wanna ban people
 501 2011-07-01 02:10:37 <folklore> they'll stop
 502 2011-07-01 02:10:57 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 503 2011-07-01 02:11:00 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 504 2011-07-01 02:11:06 <folklore> I don't like the ideas of bans, unfortunately is needed sometimes
 505 2011-07-01 02:11:18 <gmaxwell> Because the powers that be are disinterested in encouraging reasonable behavior though any means, because they don't actually see project embarassing behavior as .. well.. embarassing.
 506 2011-07-01 02:11:31 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 507 2011-07-01 02:11:41 <gmaxwell> 19:01 < folklore> they have about a 1000 exit nodes
 508 2011-07-01 02:11:54 <folklore> yes
 509 2011-07-01 02:11:58 <gmaxwell> dude, you made that incorrect claim earlier and I corrected you.
 510 2011-07-01 02:12:00 <folklore> I downloaded the entire list today
 511 2011-07-01 02:12:09 <cacheson> folklore: people have been demanding that for a long time now, and it hasn't been happening.  the forum is still a giant cesspool
 512 2011-07-01 02:12:15 <folklore> no I didn't you misunderstood
 513 2011-07-01 02:12:24 <folklore> they have a 1000 exit nodes
 514 2011-07-01 02:12:31 <justmoon> gmaxwell, yes they do, that's why they're moving the forum
 515 2011-07-01 02:12:36 <folklore> not all are active and majority of traffic does go through the same few boxes
 516 2011-07-01 02:12:40 <gmaxwell> folklore: There are about 4000 exit nodes.
 517 2011-07-01 02:12:47 <folklore> check out magies etc...Tor creator does it for speed
 518 2011-07-01 02:12:52 <folklore> gmaxwell no
 519 2011-07-01 02:12:58 <gmaxwell> folklore: and two orders of magnitude more non-exit nodes.
 520 2011-07-01 02:13:26 <gmaxwell> folklore: 3643 in the full directory right now.
 521 2011-07-01 02:13:26 <cacheson> justmoon: from what I can tell, there's a bit of a disconnect between the devs and the forum admins
 522 2011-07-01 02:13:38 <folklore> http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/ip_list_exit.php/Tor_ip_list_EXIT.csv
 523 2011-07-01 02:13:38 wasabi2 has joined
 524 2011-07-01 02:13:50 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 525 2011-07-01 02:13:51 <justmoon> cacheson, yep, if nothing else they dragged their heels about the forum move
 526 2011-07-01 02:13:51 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 527 2011-07-01 02:13:54 <folklore> for all nodes
 528 2011-07-01 02:13:54 <folklore> http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/ip_list_all.php/Tor_ip_list_ALL.csv
 529 2011-07-01 02:14:36 <gmaxwell> folklore: I have no clue why it's incomplete, but it is.
 530 2011-07-01 02:14:49 <folklore> gmaxwell if you're looking in vidialia, difference between relay and or node and exit node
 531 2011-07-01 02:14:58 vigilyn has joined
 532 2011-07-01 02:14:58 <folklore> most don'twanna be exit node cause of blacklist
 533 2011-07-01 02:15:21 <gmaxwell> folklore: I'm not looking at vidialia. I've written tor directory tools, and I'm parsing the directory directly.
 534 2011-07-01 02:15:32 <gmaxwell> I'm quite familar with how tor works.
 535 2011-07-01 02:15:52 <folklore> good maybe you can write a branch to extract the current exit node ip easier :P cause right now is hard
 536 2011-07-01 02:16:02 <folklore> through the control port please, thanks ;)
 537 2011-07-01 02:17:07 <folklore> anyway back the forums, I really think they're essential
 538 2011-07-01 02:17:08 storrgie has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 539 2011-07-01 02:17:29 <folklore> might be tricky initally to cleanup, but after that people will get it, and it'll be better for everyone
 540 2011-07-01 02:17:44 <folklore> I haven't seen any illegal stuff myself, seen lot of quality posts though
 541 2011-07-01 02:18:06 kermit has joined
 542 2011-07-01 02:18:10 <gmaxwell> folklore: you've been fortunate and mostly staying around the technical posts then.
 543 2011-07-01 02:18:37 <folklore> I try to focus on my attention on the quality stuff yeah
 544 2011-07-01 02:18:43 <folklore> that's with any forum though
 545 2011-07-01 02:20:00 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 546 2011-07-01 02:20:46 <denisx> did really nobody took a look at http://davids.webmaster.com/~davids/bitcoin-3diff.txt
 547 2011-07-01 02:20:50 <ius> 04:11 < cacheson> justmoon: from what I can tell, there's a bit of a disconnect between the devs and the forum admins
 548 2011-07-01 02:21:31 <ius> Has there been any public disucssion of those issues? I realise the developers (tm) may not have much time for it, but keeping the forum userbase together still might be in the best interest of bitcoin
 549 2011-07-01 02:21:54 <gmaxwell> denisx: I superduper-NAK on 'hubmode' patch.
 550 2011-07-01 02:21:59 <folklore> i agree ius
 551 2011-07-01 02:22:00 xrcode has joined
 552 2011-07-01 02:22:12 <denisx> gmaxwell: and point 1 and 2?
 553 2011-07-01 02:22:16 <gmaxwell> we're already dangerously low on sockets and you want to make nodes use an order of magnitude more.
 554 2011-07-01 02:22:36 <cacheson> ius: it's just from what I've heard in this channel
 555 2011-07-01 02:22:46 <gmaxwell> (2)  I've run for al ong time. (or at least some version of it)
 556 2011-07-01 02:23:22 <gmaxwell> (1) is meh. I'm not too woried about miner specific features in trunk generally.
 557 2011-07-01 02:23:42 <ius> cacheson: Yeah so I've heard too. From BlueMatt or jgarzik, can't recall. I do agree it's messy and needs more clear policies/moderations.
 558 2011-07-01 02:23:52 wasabi2 has joined
 559 2011-07-01 02:24:07 <folklore> just wish all those that are the head of bitcoin understood how pivital and important bitcoin is becoming, and the potential, and the calling for them to lead professionally
 560 2011-07-01 02:24:51 <gmaxwell> denisx: I've been using a different version of (4) that only threads the getworks. I'd want to test the heck out of that to make sure it doesn't expose race conditions.
 561 2011-07-01 02:25:44 <folklore> development only half the battle, marketing is where its at
 562 2011-07-01 02:25:44 <gmaxwell> folklore: You realize that "just wish all those that are the head of bitcoin understood" is insulting, right?
 563 2011-07-01 02:25:55 <folklore> and all the bitcoin main devs can make tons of profit through donations
 564 2011-07-01 02:26:16 <folklore> gmaxwell it's not insulting at all, clearly theres some confusion, so clearly they don't all understand
 565 2011-07-01 02:26:38 <folklore> i'm not about harping on problems, i'm about trying to find solutions
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 567 2011-07-01 02:26:42 <gmaxwell> Who is confused about what? Don't cast vage accusations.
 568 2011-07-01 02:26:46 <gmaxwell> er vague.
 569 2011-07-01 02:27:14 <folklore> stop trying to cause conflict gmaxwell, I get you contribute code, and that's great, but that doesn't mean you're a cheif
 570 2011-07-01 02:27:25 <gmaxwell> ...
 571 2011-07-01 02:28:10 <folklore> chief rather, too many chiefs and not enough indians isn't good
 572 2011-07-01 02:28:25 <folklore> :)
 573 2011-07-01 02:29:03 <gmaxwell> I never claimed to be anything. You however are claiming that the core developers do not "understand how pivital and important bitcoin is becoming", and you responded to my insistance that you be specific about your insults with ad hominem.
 574 2011-07-01 02:29:21 <folklore> we've discussed this before in other channels
 575 2011-07-01 02:29:40 Lobster_Man is now known as LobsterMan
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 578 2011-07-01 02:30:10 <folklore> and i'm not "insulting" anyone, see this is why I don't wanna discuss this with you again, you're looking to cause conflict, where there is none, all because I disagreed with you on cryptography or whatever else
 579 2011-07-01 02:30:16 <Diablo-D3> http://bitcoin-shitlist.com/
 580 2011-07-01 02:30:21 <folklore> so i'm gonna bow out the discussion with you
 581 2011-07-01 02:30:27 <gmaxwell> I don't even know what you're talking about.
 582 2011-07-01 02:30:42 <gmaxwell> Frankly you haven't been memorable enough to stay in my mind very long.
 583 2011-07-01 02:31:01 unclemantis has joined
 584 2011-07-01 02:31:16 <gmaxwell> And I may have had you on ignore when you discussed whatever you're thinking of, if I wasn't responding. Because I've been /ignoring you when you go offtopic in here and won't quit.
 585 2011-07-01 02:31:21 <folklore> as I said before, you're clearly hurt over me disagreeing with you in the past, so are looking to cause conflict
 586 2011-07-01 02:31:25 <folklore> I'm not, so let it go
 587 2011-07-01 02:31:47 <gmaxwell> :-/
 588 2011-07-01 02:32:11 <folklore> sorry to hear you ignored me in the past
 589 2011-07-01 02:32:17 <cacheson> folklore: stop causing conflict; go away
 590 2011-07-01 02:32:22 <gmaxwell> I told you I was doing it when I did it.
 591 2011-07-01 02:32:26 <folklore> lol cacheson
 592 2011-07-01 02:32:33 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs::
 593 2011-07-01 02:33:42 <gmaxwell> denisx: thought about creating pull requests for these things?
 594 2011-07-01 02:33:55 <gmaxwell> denisx: thats the best way to avoid getting patches lost.
 595 2011-07-01 02:34:04 <denisx> gmaxwell: it is not my code
 596 2011-07-01 02:34:22 <denisx> got it from here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22585.40
 597 2011-07-01 02:35:03 <gmaxwell> well go nag its author to do so, broken out though, since I expect the different parts will get different reception.
 598 2011-07-01 02:35:23 <denisx> and I was interested in the duplicate patch, because I see duplicate for my own workers and I don't cheat on my own pool ;)
 599 2011-07-01 02:36:28 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 601 2011-07-01 02:38:34 <gmaxwell> denisx: yea, that patch has been in luke's git for a long time.
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 605 2011-07-01 02:41:06 <denisx> gmaxwell: the last function parameter can be removed then also
 606 2011-07-01 02:43:16 <gmaxwell> folklore: Ah, you were the person who was insiting that the developers were "unprofessional" because there was "no documentation" when you hadn't even read the bitcoin paper. Did you finally read it?
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 621 2011-07-01 02:49:26 <xelister> gmaxwell: developers are dissapointing
 622 2011-07-01 02:49:34 <xelister> still no one told how to run 2 nodes at once pc
 623 2011-07-01 02:51:45 <gmaxwell> xelister: Well, perhaps someone would have it wasn't scrolled off by tripe.
 624 2011-07-01 02:51:52 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r96d87301d870 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/ (plugin.py test.py): Gatekeeper: switch to just using +v http://tinyurl.com/6262brb
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 628 2011-07-01 02:52:21 <gmaxwell> xelister: Under linux? just start two. Give at least one nolisten. Put them on different rpcports.
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 632 2011-07-01 02:52:47 <xelister> gmaxwell: why nolisten? I want both to listen
 633 2011-07-01 02:52:51 <xelister> on different ports
 634 2011-07-01 02:52:54 <gmaxwell> If they are running as one user give them different directories.
 635 2011-07-01 02:52:57 enquirer1 has joined
 636 2011-07-01 02:53:01 <xelister> $ ./bitcoind -server -port 8334 -rpcport 8332
 637 2011-07-01 02:53:02 <xelister> fServer=1
 638 2011-07-01 02:53:04 <xelister> error: incorrect rpcuser or rpcpassword (authorization failed)
 639 2011-07-01 02:53:08 <xelister> gmaxwell: they are as other linux user
 640 2011-07-01 02:53:16 <cacheson> xelister: other clients aren't going to connect to you on a different port
 641 2011-07-01 02:53:51 <gmaxwell> what cacheson said (well, technically, they can but bitcoin strongly prefers to connect on the normal port)
 642 2011-07-01 02:53:57 <B0g4r7> If you want to have 2 listening, you should bind them to different local IP addresses.
 643 2011-07-01 02:54:04 xrcode has joined
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 645 2011-07-01 02:54:10 <B0g4r7> IMO.
 646 2011-07-01 02:54:20 <cacheson> also, wouldn't you need to change the working directory for one of them?
 647 2011-07-01 02:54:33 <riush> doesn't that make it easy to block bitcoin (even at a larger scale)? whats the advantage of using only this port?
 648 2011-07-01 02:55:11 f33x has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 649 2011-07-01 02:55:32 <xelister> cacheson: other linux user
 650 2011-07-01 02:55:45 <cacheson> xelister: ah, that works too
 651 2011-07-01 02:55:48 <xelister> riush: yeap it makes it easy. see also #btcfn effort to avoid bitcoin blocking
 652 2011-07-01 02:56:05 <xelister> gmaxwell: yeap I dont care
 653 2011-07-01 02:56:08 <gmaxwell> riush: using other ports wouldn't meaningfully improve bitcoin. I had assumed the preference was to avoid using bitcoin to DDOS other crap by tricking the network into connecting to it.
 654 2011-07-01 02:56:25 <xelister> just want to run 2nd bitcoin server, listening on other RPC port and on other bitcoin-tcp-p2p port
 655 2011-07-01 02:56:27 <phantomcircuit> roses are red
 656 2011-07-01 02:56:30 <phantomcircuit> violets are blue
 657 2011-07-01 02:56:36 <phantomcircuit> why am i here
 658 2011-07-01 02:56:41 <xelister> so I did - ./bitcoind -server -port 8334 -rpcport 8332       and why is it not working
 659 2011-07-01 02:56:48 <riush> xelister, wow, this is great :)
 660 2011-07-01 02:57:21 <xelister> gmaxwell: well it was probably as a simple anti-ubernode-attack thing. where 1 ip would pretend to be 65000 nodes
 661 2011-07-01 02:57:37 <neofutur> xelister: firewall ?
 662 2011-07-01 02:57:42 <xelister> neofutur: no, loook
 663 2011-07-01 02:57:48 <xelister> $ ./bitcoind -server -port 8334 -rpcport 8332
 664 2011-07-01 02:57:49 <xelister> fServer=1
 665 2011-07-01 02:57:51 <xelister> error: incorrect rpcuser or rpcpassword (authorization failed)
 666 2011-07-01 02:57:52 <gmaxwell> xelister: no, it already won't connect to a single /16 more that once on outbound.
 667 2011-07-01 02:57:52 <xelister> is it a bug?
 668 2011-07-01 02:58:03 <gmaxwell> xelister: what are you trying to accomplish there?
 669 2011-07-01 02:58:19 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
 670 2011-07-01 02:58:20 <xelister> run 2nd node
 671 2011-07-01 02:58:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134144 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 927 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1573582.08864482
 672 2011-07-01 02:58:33 rich has quit (Quit: rich)
 673 2011-07-01 02:58:51 <xelister> ok I will give 0.01 to whoever shows me how to run the 2nd node of my bitcoin client
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 683 2011-07-01 03:01:22 <gmaxwell> xelister: ... ./bitcoind -port=8339 -rpcport=8340 works just fine.
 684 2011-07-01 03:01:40 <gmaxwell> (I just picked some random ports, since I'm using the ones you're using)
 685 2011-07-01 03:02:09 f33x has joined
 686 2011-07-01 03:02:46 <B0g4r7> That is a bit of an odd arg convention.
 687 2011-07-01 03:02:50 <xelister> trololo it worked
 688 2011-07-01 03:02:53 <gmaxwell> I'm assuming it wasn't working for you because you had the syntax wrong?
 689 2011-07-01 03:02:54 <gmaxwell> yea.
 690 2011-07-01 03:03:00 <xelister> damn cmd line syntax. sucks
 691 2011-07-01 03:03:01 <B0g4r7> I prefer GNU style where it's --arg-name value
 692 2011-07-01 03:03:07 * xelister seconds B0g4r7
 693 2011-07-01 03:03:12 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: yea but it's documented in the stdout help at least!
 694 2011-07-01 03:03:21 <xelister> also it should say like "unknown argument 8339" or smth
 695 2011-07-01 03:03:45 <xelister> gmaxwell: btw outputed help on cmd opts suck too, it misses many of important commands it seems
 696 2011-07-01 03:03:49 <gmaxwell> Yea, who knows. ::shrugs::
 697 2011-07-01 03:03:57 elnato is now known as midget
 698 2011-07-01 03:04:05 <xelister> so what is your address
 699 2011-07-01 03:04:06 <gmaxwell> xelister: Submit patches.
 700 2011-07-01 03:04:17 <gmaxwell> xelister: Keep it. :)
 701 2011-07-01 03:04:27 midget is now known as Guest66882
 702 2011-07-01 03:04:45 <gmaxwell> (or send it to the faucet if you insist)
 703 2011-07-01 03:04:46 <xelister> gmaxwell: k then I donate it into BtcFn project for ya =)
 704 2011-07-01 03:05:02 <xelister> fauced is super supplied with EFF returned coins afaik
 705 2011-07-01 03:05:08 <xelister> rite?
 706 2011-07-01 03:05:33 xrcode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 707 2011-07-01 03:05:45 <gmaxwell> it will be someday apparently, at the moment its almost dry again.
 708 2011-07-01 03:05:49 <xelister> I wonder why satoshi doesnt popmp more funds into say fauced, or 100 other projects too
 709 2011-07-01 03:06:27 <gmaxwell> Why are you assuming that satoshi has a lot of bitcoin?
 710 2011-07-01 03:06:46 <denisx> gmaxwell: I think he generated the first year alone
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 713 2011-07-01 03:07:01 <xelister> yea
 714 2011-07-01 03:07:02 <gmaxwell> He didn't.
 715 2011-07-01 03:07:07 <xelister> so who di
 716 2011-07-01 03:07:08 <denisx> then who did?
 717 2011-07-01 03:07:23 <denisx> the difficulty did not rise the first year
 718 2011-07-01 03:07:38 <doublec> there were only cpu's for a long time
 719 2011-07-01 03:07:45 <doublec> that's why difficulty did't increase a lot
 720 2011-07-01 03:07:54 <doublec> hal generated some too
 721 2011-07-01 03:07:59 <denisx> it did not rise at all the first year
 722 2011-07-01 03:08:10 <doublec> there wasn't much interest
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 724 2011-07-01 03:09:10 <gmaxwell> The initial difficulty was too high too.
 725 2011-07-01 03:09:23 <denisx> gmaxwell: wasnt it diff-1?
 726 2011-07-01 03:09:26 <gmaxwell> But it has a floor at 1 in the main block chain.
 727 2011-07-01 03:09:34 <doublec> hal says he started using bitcoin the first day
 728 2011-07-01 03:09:34 <gmaxwell> Yes, which used to be very slow in 1999.
 729 2011-07-01 03:09:42 <doublec> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8662.msg125804#msg125804
 730 2011-07-01 03:09:46 Guest66882 is now known as elnato
 731 2011-07-01 03:09:50 <gmaxwell> Satoshi made a lot of effort to prove he didn't start early.
 732 2011-07-01 03:09:56 <gmaxwell> Thats why the genesis block has a headline in it.
 733 2011-07-01 03:10:01 xrcode\ has quit (Client Quit)
 734 2011-07-01 03:10:03 <gmaxwell> http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg10142.html  < also, see an example early post.
 735 2011-07-01 03:10:11 <gmaxwell> Vs block 0 < http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
 736 2011-07-01 03:10:55 <gmaxwell> I ran bitcoin during the first year, I think. but I didn't save any of the coins.
 737 2011-07-01 03:11:13 <justmoon> gmaxwell, also sourceforge projects shows 120-something downloads of the client in jan 2009
 738 2011-07-01 03:11:17 <justmoon> project*
 739 2011-07-01 03:12:33 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's probably reasonable to guess he has a fair number, but this notion that he has an enormous amount seems odd to me. As far as I could tell he didn't like the big consolidation of mining power that came from people putting extra effort into doing a lot of it.
 740 2011-07-01 03:13:28 folklore has joined
 741 2011-07-01 03:14:56 <justmoon> one way to look at it is: if he has a lot then only because he was the only person to understand the value of bitcoin when everyone else was too busy saying it would fail - he did absolutely everything by the book in terms of making the client available and trying to get as many people as possible to use it
 742 2011-07-01 03:15:31 f33x_ has joined
 743 2011-07-01 03:15:43 <gmaxwell> justmoon: Yes.
 744 2011-07-01 03:16:04 <gmaxwell> justmoon: Well, and those of us who knew about it and didn't keep up ... well, we made our choices.
 745 2011-07-01 03:16:22 <gmaxwell> Hal's response to the initial announcement makes the rational argument quite crisply.
 746 2011-07-01 03:16:43 <gmaxwell> As an amusing thought experiment, imagine that Bitcoin is successful and
 747 2011-07-01 03:16:44 <gmaxwell> becomes the dominant payment system in use throughout the world.  Then the
 748 2011-07-01 03:16:44 <gmaxwell> total value of the currency should be equal to the total value of all
 749 2011-07-01 03:16:44 <gmaxwell> the wealth in the world. Current estimates of total worldwide household
 750 2011-07-01 03:16:44 <gmaxwell> wealth that I have found range from $100 trillion to $300 trillion. With
 751 2011-07-01 03:16:46 <gmaxwell> 20 million coins, that gives each coin a value of about $10 million.
 752 2011-07-01 03:16:48 <gmaxwell> So the possibility of generating coins today with a few cents of compute
 753 2011-07-01 03:16:51 <gmaxwell> time may be quite a good bet, with a payoff of something like 100 million
 754 2011-07-01 03:16:53 <gmaxwell> to 1! Even if the odds of Bitcoin succeeding to this degree are slim,
 755 2011-07-01 03:16:56 <gmaxwell> are they really 100 million to one against? Something to think about...
 756 2011-07-01 03:17:06 rewtgrok has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 758 2011-07-01 03:17:56 <jgarzik> bitcoin began on _Windows_???
 759 2011-07-01 03:18:01 <jgarzik> no wonder the code sucks
 760 2011-07-01 03:18:09 <justmoon> haha
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 764 2011-07-01 03:18:42 <justmoon> speaking of the early client: did it use crypto++ instead of openssl?
 765 2011-07-01 03:18:55 <justmoon> or why are there remnants of crypto++ in the source tree?
 766 2011-07-01 03:21:12 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 767 2011-07-01 03:21:46 <jgarzik> justmoon: license, maybe?  or perhaps because it is from Wei Dai(sp?), upon which some bitcoin ideas are based (b-money, I think?)
 768 2011-07-01 03:23:00 <justmoon> when I saw it in the source my thought was that there certainly is a lot of kinship between wei dai and satoshi
 769 2011-07-01 03:23:17 <justmoon> wei dai's paper is also the first thing cited in the bitcoin paper
 770 2011-07-01 03:23:55 <denisx> night
 771 2011-07-01 03:23:57 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 772 2011-07-01 03:24:20 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 773 2011-07-01 03:26:32 <bittwist> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WwJB34EDHdgJ:weidai.com/bmoney.txt
 774 2011-07-01 03:26:34 <bittwist> interesting
 775 2011-07-01 03:27:03 enquirer1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 776 2011-07-01 03:27:42 <justmoon> crazy to think that idea was just sitting there for ten years
 777 2011-07-01 03:28:17 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
 778 2011-07-01 03:28:19 <bittwist> blame the y2k
 779 2011-07-01 03:28:53 <justmoon> that must be it :)
 780 2011-07-01 03:29:23 <gmaxwell> bittwist: it didn't stand alone, there were a number of early crypto-libertarian lists that were just dripping with ideas in this and related spaces. (some good, many bad :) )
 781 2011-07-01 03:30:03 enquirer has joined
 782 2011-07-01 03:30:08 <justmoon> gmaxwell: any tips on where to find some worthwhile reading material from that sort of vein?
 783 2011-07-01 03:30:36 <bittwist> print out radio noise from the universe's creation
 784 2011-07-01 03:30:44 <bittwist> read it until you go blind or become a crypto god
 785 2011-07-01 03:31:07 <gmaxwell> justmoon: google on the people. e.g. anything connected to Hal Finney tends to be interesting.
 786 2011-07-01 03:31:38 <justmoon> k thx
 787 2011-07-01 03:31:57 bliket_ has joined
 788 2011-07-01 03:32:02 <bliket_> Hey anyone here good in python and knows phoneix code? I just did some modifications, I am planning on running the miner in a do while true script. I did a couple of modifications where I want the miner to quit (gracefully) can someone check my code to make sure I am not screwing it up and that the variables are accessiable ?  http://i.imgur.com/hbJly.jpg
 789 2011-07-01 03:32:04 <bliket_> parts changed are in green
 790 2011-07-01 03:32:22 <bliket_> according to line 140, the "reactor" should be accessable
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 793 2011-07-01 03:33:06 <bittwist> justmoon: in the past five minutes i've hit three references to http://lesswrong.com/ from hal and wei searches
 794 2011-07-01 03:33:17 <bittwist> site of interest
 795 2011-07-01 03:34:34 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 796 2011-07-01 03:34:48 <bittwist> same goes with Nick Szabo
 797 2011-07-01 03:35:08 <justmoon> Nickamoto Szaboshi? :P
 798 2011-07-01 03:35:15 enquirer1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 799 2011-07-01 03:35:38 <bittwist> justmoon: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/
 800 2011-07-01 03:35:48 <bittwist> justmoon: all new names to me :P
 801 2011-07-01 03:35:50 <gmaxwell> bliket_: I'm running basically identical changes.
 802 2011-07-01 03:36:01 <justmoon> yeah he has a post where he commends satoshi about how awesome bitcoin is :)
 803 2011-07-01 03:36:12 <justmoon> so my guess is he's not satoshi
 804 2011-07-01 03:36:21 <gmaxwell> (well mine are against an old version, so they aren't quite identicial, the os._exit(0) is right though, which is what you were likely to get wrong)
 805 2011-07-01 03:36:22 <justmoon> unless he did that on purpose in that case: well played :D
 806 2011-07-01 03:37:34 <justmoon> sipa's limitblocksend patch works great!
 807 2011-07-01 03:37:42 <noagendamarket> wei dai is satoshi :)
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 809 2011-07-01 03:38:00 <noagendamarket> Ive said that all along
 810 2011-07-01 03:38:35 <gmaxwell> If so, he certantly hid difference in writing style well.
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 812 2011-07-01 03:38:51 <justmoon> yeah, everyone keeps saying satoshi uses british english idioms
 813 2011-07-01 03:39:02 LightRider has quit (Excess Flood)
 814 2011-07-01 03:39:20 <justmoon> then there is my forum post timezone analysis saying that he almost certainly lives somewhere in the americas :)
 815 2011-07-01 03:39:31 LightRider has joined
 816 2011-07-01 03:39:52 <bittwist> the obvious conspiracy line is: wei -> sat -> gox -> Tibanne
 817 2011-07-01 03:39:55 <bliket_> So 1) I know I should be able to access the "reactor" because on line 140 @ http://i.imgur.com/hbJly.jpg we see it being used "reactor.callLater(15, self.idleFixer)"   and 2) I know how to use the "reactor" to get it to stop because of line 270 @ http://pastebin.com/T11hGmqC
 818 2011-07-01 03:40:09 <bliket_> right gmaxwell?
 819 2011-07-01 03:40:21 <justmoon> bittwist, nah, gox was founded by jed, tibanne didn't acquire it til much later
 820 2011-07-01 03:40:32 <bittwist> shh
 821 2011-07-01 03:40:33 <bittwist> :P
 822 2011-07-01 03:40:36 <bliket_> gmaxwell: I used to do a sys.exit(0) but because I didn't turn off the reactor gracefully it didn't make a good enough exit
 823 2011-07-01 03:40:50 <cacheson> clearly the answer is that satoshi is austin powers
 824 2011-07-01 03:40:50 <bittwist> really this identity crud is way ot
 825 2011-07-01 03:40:55 <cacheson> international man of mystery
 826 2011-07-01 03:41:08 <bliket_> A control-C quit the phoenix miner perfectly, a sys.exit(0) didn't
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 829 2011-07-01 03:42:57 <bluenemo_> moin guys. i heard you're talking very smart stuff at the moment. i've been up for about 20 hours by now and feel up for the challange :)
 830 2011-07-01 03:43:09 <justmoon> blueadept, lol wtf
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 833 2011-07-01 03:45:55 <gmaxwell> bliket_: if you os._exit(0) it will drop out of the interperter quickly.
 834 2011-07-01 03:46:05 <bliket_> right
 835 2011-07-01 03:46:09 <bliket_> i dont want it to do that
 836 2011-07-01 03:46:15 <bliket_> i need it to shutdown correctly
 837 2011-07-01 03:46:25 <bliket_> os_exit(0) is just like a kill -9
 838 2011-07-01 03:46:32 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
 839 2011-07-01 03:46:32 <gmaxwell> yes, why don't you want that?
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 842 2011-07-01 03:46:39 <bliket_> and you gotta remember that twisted.internet will keep running
 843 2011-07-01 03:47:13 <bliket_> check it out, try to do a os_exit(0) while the miner is running normally, you will notice your gpu usage will still be high even though the miner is killed
 844 2011-07-01 03:47:29 <gmaxwell> well, I'm running agains an old revision in part because the newer twisted crap was prone to getting stuck.
 845 2011-07-01 03:47:35 <bliket_> you *need* to call reactor.stop if the reactor is still running
 846 2011-07-01 03:47:52 <bliket_> before you exit
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 851 2011-07-01 03:48:27 <bliket_> So 1) I know I should be able to access the "reactor" because on line 140 @ http://i.imgur.com/hbJly.jpg we see it being used "reactor.callLater(15, self.idleFixer)"   and 2) I know how to use the "reactor" to get it to stop because of line 270 @ http://pastebin.com/T11hGmqC
 852 2011-07-01 03:48:31 <gmaxwell> Doesn't here for some reason.
 853 2011-07-01 03:48:40 <bliket_> right?
 854 2011-07-01 03:48:50 <bliket_> I just want to be sure my code is right
 855 2011-07-01 03:49:00 <bliket_> because all my miners are like 15 miles away from me
 856 2011-07-01 03:49:16 <bliket_> lol I gotta code without debugging/testing
 857 2011-07-01 03:49:30 <bliket_> I am thinking of running vmware just to test this modification
 858 2011-07-01 03:49:35 <bliket_> and that got me thinking
 859 2011-07-01 03:49:43 <bliket_> how do I cause phoenix to idle
 860 2011-07-01 03:49:53 <gmaxwell> I used iptables to test it.
 861 2011-07-01 03:49:55 <bliket_> i guess i can pull the ethernet cable
 862 2011-07-01 03:49:58 <gmaxwell> Just blocked the pool.
 863 2011-07-01 03:49:58 <bliket_> oh shit thanks
 864 2011-07-01 03:50:03 <bliket_> thank youuuu
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 866 2011-07-01 03:50:28 <gmaxwell> While I'd be paranoid if my miners were 15 mi away, I never wedged them while screwing around with that stuff.
 867 2011-07-01 03:50:30 Saab- has quit (Quit: Saab-)
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 869 2011-07-01 03:51:44 <bliket_> damn i tried running linuxcoin in a vm
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 872 2011-07-01 03:52:05 <bliket_> and it didnt like that it emulates a i686 processor since it requires a x86
 873 2011-07-01 03:52:19 <gmaxwell> x86_64 you mean?
 874 2011-07-01 03:52:37 <gmaxwell> vmware can run 64 bit targets but I guess it requires a 64 bit host.
 875 2011-07-01 03:52:37 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
 876 2011-07-01 03:53:51 <bliket_> i do run a 64 bit host
 877 2011-07-01 03:54:00 <bliket_> yes i do mean x86_64
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 879 2011-07-01 03:55:17 <gmaxwell> http://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_US&cmd=displayKC&externalId=1003945
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 883 2011-07-01 04:01:14 <bliket_> I decided to just install linux on an external hard drive
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 885 2011-07-01 04:02:23 <bliket_> I usually use unetbootin to make linux os flash drives, is there any way to install it to an external hard drive? unetbootin doesnt want to work with my external hard drive
 886 2011-07-01 04:02:32 <bliket_> i am all out of flash drives
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 888 2011-07-01 04:03:02 <bluenemo_> bliket_, just create a vm or install it normally via booting it normally and selecting your external storage for installation
 889 2011-07-01 04:03:18 <bliket_> i am using linuxcoin's iso
 890 2011-07-01 04:03:25 <bliket_> so there is no installer
 891 2011-07-01 04:03:25 <bluenemo_> ?
 892 2011-07-01 04:03:33 <bliket_> its a livecd
 893 2011-07-01 04:03:41 <bluenemo_> and you want to install it?
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 895 2011-07-01 04:03:57 <bliket_> yeah i just want my external hard drive to have the iso's files
 896 2011-07-01 04:04:16 <bliket_> but i think it needs to rewrite the external hard drive's MBR to make it bootable
 897 2011-07-01 04:04:21 <bluenemo_> hm. i'm not sure if thats possible.. isos have different block sizes than hdd's
 898 2011-07-01 04:04:28 dehuman has joined
 899 2011-07-01 04:04:43 <bluenemo_> hm well you shouldnt have anything else on the hdd before you start testing :)
 900 2011-07-01 04:05:37 <bluenemo_> ah ok now i get it yeah just put them on the hdd, chroot and grub-install or sth.. there should be howtos
 901 2011-07-01 04:05:44 <bliket_> i just opened HP USB disk format tool and it is allowing me to make my external hard drive a startup disk but it only works with a DOS Startup disk
 902 2011-07-01 04:06:06 <bliket_> is there any way to load linux from dos? hehe
 903 2011-07-01 04:06:20 <cacheson> bliket_: loadlin
 904 2011-07-01 04:06:20 <bluenemo_> rofl no idea :D
 905 2011-07-01 04:06:53 <xelister> why is fauced giving away 0.001
 906 2011-07-01 04:07:04 <xelister> giving 0.001 costs 0.011 anyway?
 907 2011-07-01 04:07:08 <bluenemo_> to get you started with btc
 908 2011-07-01 04:07:58 <xelister> so actually it gives 0.001 to the person and 0.010 to a lucky miner
 909 2011-07-01 04:08:25 enquirer has joined
 910 2011-07-01 04:09:21 <gmaxwell> xelister: no it doesn't.
 911 2011-07-01 04:09:21 <copumpkin> it may use a client that doesn't force a donation
 912 2011-07-01 04:09:31 <bliket_> shit
 913 2011-07-01 04:09:31 <xelister> gmaxwell: hm?
 914 2011-07-01 04:09:37 <bliket_> i just realized i can burn this on a cd
 915 2011-07-01 04:09:39 <bliket_> haha
 916 2011-07-01 04:09:40 <gmaxwell> (1) the antidust fee was reduced to 0.0005, (2) it uses a sendmany.
 917 2011-07-01 04:09:42 <bliket_> problem solved
 918 2011-07-01 04:09:45 <xelister> oh
 919 2011-07-01 04:09:55 * xelister feels old
 920 2011-07-01 04:09:55 <bliket_> why didnt anyone say "burn a cd"
 921 2011-07-01 04:10:07 <xelister> why wallet.dat is so big
 922 2011-07-01 04:10:07 <bluenemo_> fail...
 923 2011-07-01 04:10:08 <Cryo> wow, manly: http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon7000/7500/X8OBN-F.cfm
 924 2011-07-01 04:10:18 <xelister> fresh node with just 2 accounts is over 50 K
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 926 2011-07-01 04:10:57 <Cryo> 80 cores, 16 pci 2.x x16
 927 2011-07-01 04:11:03 <Cryo> 5U
 928 2011-07-01 04:11:11 <xelister> O_O
 929 2011-07-01 04:11:15 * xelister megusta
 930 2011-07-01 04:11:49 <Cryo> the motherboard manual reads like pr0n.
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 932 2011-07-01 04:12:05 <copumpkin> Cryo: good luck cooling that thing
 933 2011-07-01 04:12:06 <gmaxwell> 21:08 < bliket_> why didnt anyone say "burn a cd"
 934 2011-07-01 04:12:14 <gmaxwell> I assumed you didn't have a drive.
 935 2011-07-01 04:12:37 <bluenemo_> i assumed burning a cd to start an iso was to obvious to tell :)
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 958 2011-07-01 04:40:54 <gmaxwell> ~.
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 962 2011-07-01 04:48:24 <nanotube> gmaxwell: trying to quit your ssh session? :)
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 979 2011-07-01 05:35:25 <topi`> nanotube: happens to me all the time when the 3G hangs ;)
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 982 2011-07-01 05:44:25 <Shuro> Morning
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1005 2011-07-01 06:13:10 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,dev
1006 2011-07-01 06:13:11 <gribble> Error: "bc,dev" is not a valid command.
1007 2011-07-01 06:13:12 <phantomcircuit> er
1008 2011-07-01 06:13:16 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,stats
1009 2011-07-01 06:13:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134170 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 901 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1580469.71659220
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1015 2011-07-01 06:14:09 <groffer> xelister: it creates 100 addresses in advance so you don't have to take a backup after each new address
1016 2011-07-01 06:14:39 Shuro has joined
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1018 2011-07-01 06:19:11 <Graet> Diablo-D3 one of my pools members is compiling a list like http://mksv.ath.cx//bit/bit.php with live stats. if that helps at all you are welcome to use it, obviously he has more to add, but will do this eve and make it nicer, we will spam it round forums too. hopefully he can put together a comprehensive list :)
1019 2011-07-01 06:19:34 <Graet> well not hopefully but planning to
1020 2011-07-01 06:20:49 Gonzago has quit ()
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1022 2011-07-01 06:24:33 <Diablo-D3> Graet: needs to sort results.
1023 2011-07-01 06:24:49 <Graet> Diablo-D3 i will tell him that . :)
1024 2011-07-01 06:25:04 <Graet> hope its useful :)
1025 2011-07-01 06:26:45 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|zzz
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1033 2011-07-01 06:39:23 <egecko> man
1034 2011-07-01 06:39:32 <egecko> its been so long since ive used a *nix environment
1035 2011-07-01 06:39:42 Beremat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1036 2011-07-01 06:39:52 <egecko> getting used to these command lines reminds me of how annoying that is ;)
1037 2011-07-01 06:40:36 rich has joined
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1044 2011-07-01 06:50:58 <Shuro> did someone here uses TheBlueMatt's feefix?
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1068 2011-07-01 07:28:46 <Shuro> i've i have mined successfully a block, did i can use it for my transactions?
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1070 2011-07-01 07:31:47 <neofutur> if you have the btc in your wallet you can use them
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1087 2011-07-01 07:52:33 <Shuro> is there some chance to prognose the fee i have to pay? (btc-client asks, but headlessclient only sends and pay the fee automaticly)
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1101 2011-07-01 08:01:01 <pogden> Hello. I'm worried about the use of base 58 in the bitcoin client over base 64. I'm looking at src/base58.h and it looks like the excuses that are listed are just bullocks.
1102 2011-07-01 08:01:11 <pogden> I"m worried that this is an attempt to undermine the security of the language.
1103 2011-07-01 08:02:02 MetaV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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1107 2011-07-01 08:02:59 <doublec> are bullocks good or bad?
1108 2011-07-01 08:03:23 <pogden> Bad.
1109 2011-07-01 08:03:46 <pogden> I think that jgarzik is a mole
1110 2011-07-01 08:03:49 <snowing> what is the problem?
1111 2011-07-01 08:04:07 <doublec> what does jgarzik have to do with base 58?
1112 2011-07-01 08:04:17 <pogden> he has the last patch on this file
1113 2011-07-01 08:04:44 <bittwist> we are through the looking glass people
1114 2011-07-01 08:04:46 <doublec> merging a pull request from someone else?
1115 2011-07-01 08:05:44 <pogden> Who is that someone else, though?
1116 2011-07-01 08:05:52 <doublec> Who are you?
1117 2011-07-01 08:07:21 <pogden> I don't think this communciation is secure enough for me to say. I think that the bitcoin client's security is more important than who i am
1118 2011-07-01 08:07:25 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1119 2011-07-01 08:08:18 <snowing> what does base 58 have to do with security?
1120 2011-07-01 08:08:26 <neofutur> obfuscating ?
1121 2011-07-01 08:08:38 <snowing> o_o
1122 2011-07-01 08:08:45 <snowing> I hope not
1123 2011-07-01 08:09:09 em has joined
1124 2011-07-01 08:09:17 <em> what's the news?
1125 2011-07-01 08:09:19 <pogden> base64 would be much more secure. that's like 64 times less secure than 64
1126 2011-07-01 08:09:31 <pogden> em: There's a vulnerability in the hash encoding
1127 2011-07-01 08:09:46 <pogden> These guys dont seem to understand that it was done by a mole too
1128 2011-07-01 08:09:46 <em> oh oh ..
1129 2011-07-01 08:10:11 <doublec> pogden is the new jargon
1130 2011-07-01 08:10:15 <em> pogden: do you have some inside knowledge of this stuff?
1131 2011-07-01 08:10:20 a4kj55 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1132 2011-07-01 08:10:29 <em> im not here often enough to know who are the credible actors.
1133 2011-07-01 08:10:34 fnord0 has joined
1134 2011-07-01 08:10:54 <neofutur> pogden: if you have no answer here, put it on the forums please
1135 2011-07-01 08:11:03 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
1136 2011-07-01 08:11:14 zamgo has quit ()
1137 2011-07-01 08:11:19 <pogden> Is there any encrypted forum here??
1138 2011-07-01 08:11:42 cuddlefish has joined
1139 2011-07-01 08:11:42 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1140 2011-07-01 08:11:42 <pogden> WHat is jargon?
1141 2011-07-01 08:11:43 <em> is pogden a dev who has the credibility to know that there is a flaw in bitcoin and I should sell all my coins now before they are worthless?
1142 2011-07-01 08:11:55 cuddlefish has joined
1143 2011-07-01 08:12:03 <pogden> I know how encryption works!
1144 2011-07-01 08:12:24 <cuddlefish> Hey guys, slightly off-topic: Could someone critique my proof-of-work scheme?
1145 2011-07-01 08:12:24 <snowing> but what does base58 encoding have to do with encryption?
1146 2011-07-01 08:12:32 alexbobp has joined
1147 2011-07-01 08:12:37 <pogden> Because it's less secure than base64!
1148 2011-07-01 08:12:52 <cuddlefish> pogden: *facepalm*
1149 2011-07-01 08:12:53 <alexbobp> lol, base64 isn't for security
1150 2011-07-01 08:12:57 <snowing> omg...
1151 2011-07-01 08:12:59 <pogden> Ideally we would use base128 tbh
1152 2011-07-01 08:13:03 <snowing> !?
1153 2011-07-01 08:13:03 suriv has joined
1154 2011-07-01 08:13:03 <alexbobp> what
1155 2011-07-01 08:13:13 <pierre`> lol
1156 2011-07-01 08:13:16 <alexbobp> base128, like, the entire ascii range?
1157 2011-07-01 08:13:18 <pogden> You guys need to read up on encryption this is real basic stuff.
1158 2011-07-01 08:13:21 <alexbobp> pretty sure that wouldn't work very well for copy-and-paste
1159 2011-07-01 08:13:23 <snowing> alexbobp: ^^
1160 2011-07-01 08:13:25 <alexbobp> what is this dude talking about
1161 2011-07-01 08:13:42 <cuddlefish> pogden: Base58 is not encryption
1162 2011-07-01 08:13:47 <pierre`> alexbobp: did you try double-rot13 ? it's a great algorithm
1163 2011-07-01 08:13:48 <pogden> It's used for encryption!
1164 2011-07-01 08:13:57 <cuddlefish> pogden: No, it's really no.
1165 2011-07-01 08:14:02 <alexbobp> pogden: what, base64?  no it's not
1166 2011-07-01 08:14:02 <pogden> pierre`: The germans cracked that one with enigma, don't use it
1167 2011-07-01 08:14:12 <pierre`> pogden: double-rot13 is UNBREAKABLE
1168 2011-07-01 08:14:29 <pierre`> you can use 3rot13, too
1169 2011-07-01 08:14:42 <cuddlefish> pierre`: seems like overkill.
1170 2011-07-01 08:14:46 <pogden> I get the feeling you aren't realizing the drastic nature of this bug I found.
1171 2011-07-01 08:15:03 <cuddlefish> pogden: If I exploit the bug, what bad things can I do?
1172 2011-07-01 08:15:08 <pogden> The encryption is 64 times weaker than it should be.
1173 2011-07-01 08:15:13 <pierre`> cuddlefish: i know, i prefer double-rot13, because 3-rot13 needs a lot of cpu
1174 2011-07-01 08:15:15 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1175 2011-07-01 08:15:24 <alexbobp> do you mean 64 times, like, it takes 1/64th as long to mount an attack?  because that's really not a big deal :P
1176 2011-07-01 08:15:28 <pogden> cuddlefish: I'm still analyzing the code, but it looks like you could take the identity of any wallet.
1177 2011-07-01 08:15:33 <cuddlefish> pierre`: speaking of lots of CPU, want to critique my proof-of-work scheme?
1178 2011-07-01 08:15:43 <cuddlefish> pogden: Ah, that's the hash algorithm
1179 2011-07-01 08:15:44 <mtrlt> trololol
1180 2011-07-01 08:15:45 <alexbobp> pogden: would you mind recapping, I just joined
1181 2011-07-01 08:15:45 <pierre`> cuddlefish: yeah
1182 2011-07-01 08:15:54 <alexbobp> pogden: I really don't know what you're talking about
1183 2011-07-01 08:15:55 <pogden> alexbobp: basically i cracked all of bitcoin
1184 2011-07-01 08:16:00 <pogden> it's insecure
1185 2011-07-01 08:16:00 <alexbobp> pogden: lol... details?
1186 2011-07-01 08:16:18 <mtrlt> pogden is a relative of jargon. i can't explain this any other way
1187 2011-07-01 08:16:19 <mtrlt> :>
1188 2011-07-01 08:16:19 <pierre`> pogden: cracking by reverseing base64 stuff ? YEAH ! \o/
1189 2011-07-01 08:16:21 <pogden> alexbobp: The hash algorithm uses base58 instead of base64, it's way easier to break
1190 2011-07-01 08:16:27 <doublec> mtrlt: I agree
1191 2011-07-01 08:16:29 <pogden> what is jargon ??
1192 2011-07-01 08:16:40 <alexbobp> pogden: that's all?
1193 2011-07-01 08:16:44 <mtrlt> jargon is a guy who comes here every once in a while and claims to have cracked everything
1194 2011-07-01 08:16:47 <mtrlt> :-)
1195 2011-07-01 08:16:50 <egecko> heyas, any way to run bitcoin under a linux console instead of as the gui in order to get it to create the wallet?
1196 2011-07-01 08:16:59 <pogden> He probably did, this is really insecure stuff!
1197 2011-07-01 08:17:02 <em> pogden: i thought you said there is a mole in bitcoin
1198 2011-07-01 08:17:03 <alexbobp> pogden: anything interesting?
1199 2011-07-01 08:17:04 <doublec> pogden: and writes just like you
1200 2011-07-01 08:17:19 <pogden> em: The only reason someone would submit this patch was on purpose.
1201 2011-07-01 08:17:26 <alexbobp> egecko: yes, bitcoind
1202 2011-07-01 08:17:39 <pogden> It couldn't have been anything but a malicious attack on bitcoin.
1203 2011-07-01 08:17:44 <alexbobp> egecko: like the gui, it will create your wallet if you don't already have one
1204 2011-07-01 08:17:52 <egecko> cool
1205 2011-07-01 08:18:07 <alexbobp> pogden: do you have a link to the patch?
1206 2011-07-01 08:18:20 <pogden> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/base58.h
1207 2011-07-01 08:18:34 cryptocnt has joined
1208 2011-07-01 08:18:36 <pogden> This entire system is just ridiculously insecure!
1209 2011-07-01 08:18:48 <mtrlt> pogden: you obviously don't know anything :P
1210 2011-07-01 08:19:06 <pogden> I knew about GPS before Nixon
1211 2011-07-01 08:19:20 <snowing> did you crack GPS?
1212 2011-07-01 08:19:23 <pogden> I know these things.
1213 2011-07-01 08:19:34 <pierre`> pogden: give us PoC instead of whining
1214 2011-07-01 08:19:36 <pogden> Base58 was cracked by the soviets
1215 2011-07-01 08:19:41 <pogden> PoC?
1216 2011-07-01 08:19:59 <mtrlt> okay that confirms it. you are jargon.
1217 2011-07-01 08:20:20 <pierre`> pogden: proof of concept
1218 2011-07-01 08:20:45 <egecko> any ideas on what this error means: bitcoind: error while loading shared libraries: libgthread-2.0.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory ?
1219 2011-07-01 08:20:45 <doublec> jargon's first appearance here was pointing to a header file and saying it was insecure too
1220 2011-07-01 08:20:53 <pogden> ok
1221 2011-07-01 08:21:07 <egecko> that means im missing libgthread-2.0.so.0?
1222 2011-07-01 08:21:18 <pierre`> egecko: ldd bitcoind
1223 2011-07-01 08:21:20 <pogden> OK:
1224 2011-07-01 08:21:20 larsivi has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1225 2011-07-01 08:21:28 <alexbobp> pogden: that's base58 alright, but it's not a hash implementation
1226 2011-07-01 08:21:37 <alexbobp> pogden: I think you're confused about the code, the actual hash operation isn't done in base58
1227 2011-07-01 08:21:42 <doublec> egecko: need libglib2.0-dev
1228 2011-07-01 08:21:43 larsivi has joined
1229 2011-07-01 08:21:56 <doublec> or rather, the non-dev version
1230 2011-07-01 08:22:44 <pogden>  jargon@nsasec:root/sec> echo "hello"|base64
1231 2011-07-01 08:22:51 <pogden> aGVsbG8K
1232 2011-07-01 08:22:58 <pogden> echo "aGVsbG8K"|base64
1233 2011-07-01 08:23:00 <pogden> hello
1234 2011-07-01 08:23:07 <pogden> there's your POCs
1235 2011-07-01 08:23:13 <egecko> so libglib is essentially cli/xml/python/perl it appears?
1236 2011-07-01 08:23:29 <pogden> alexbobp: but why not base64
1237 2011-07-01 08:23:39 <pierre`> jargon@nsasec:root/sec <- lol the $USER
1238 2011-07-01 08:23:49 <pogden> wat
1239 2011-07-01 08:24:06 <pierre`> hello jargon \o/
1240 2011-07-01 08:24:07 <doublec> at least pogden has a sense of humor
1241 2011-07-01 08:24:32 <pogden> I fail to see the humour in bitcoin being cracked!
1242 2011-07-01 08:24:40 <alexbobp> pogden: it's for the addresses
1243 2011-07-01 08:24:52 <alexbobp> pogden: base58 is used so addresses can just be letters and numbers
1244 2011-07-01 08:24:55 <alexbobp> pogden: for easy copy+paste
1245 2011-07-01 08:25:13 <pierre`> what ? you can copy+paste addresses ? that seems very insecure !
1246 2011-07-01 08:25:18 <alexbobp> lol
1247 2011-07-01 08:25:28 <alexbobp> well pogden is obviously trolling also
1248 2011-07-01 08:25:30 <alexbobp> I should just go elsewhere
1249 2011-07-01 08:25:52 <pogden> I"m not trolling, this is serial!
1250 2011-07-01 08:26:04 <alexbobp> serial?
1251 2011-07-01 08:26:08 <mtrlt> killer
1252 2011-07-01 08:26:18 <alexbobp> "this shit is so serious I forgot the word serious"
1253 2011-07-01 08:26:38 <alexbobp> also honestly, bitcoins being cracked *would* be hilarious
1254 2011-07-01 08:26:45 <alexbobp> don't get me wrong, I love bitcoin, have a bunch, and want it to succeed
1255 2011-07-01 08:26:51 <alexbobp> but still
1256 2011-07-01 08:26:59 <pogden> Sorry. I wasn't looking at the keyboard when I was typing
1257 2011-07-01 08:27:07 <pogden> But yeah, I cracked the hashing algorithm.
1258 2011-07-01 08:27:11 <pogden> It's a joke, really.
1259 2011-07-01 08:27:15 <pogden> Like, who wrote this?
1260 2011-07-01 08:27:19 <alexbobp> the hashing algorithm on that code you linked to?
1261 2011-07-01 08:27:26 <alexbobp> yeah, that wasn't the hashing algorithm
1262 2011-07-01 08:27:26 <pogden> And who trusts their money with this??
1263 2011-07-01 08:27:27 <snowing> pogden: NSA
1264 2011-07-01 08:27:28 <alexbobp> good practice though
1265 2011-07-01 08:27:30 <pogden> Yes, it's insecure!
1266 2011-07-01 08:27:42 <pogden> snowing: I think them or the FBI have a plant in the bitcoin development
1267 2011-07-01 08:27:50 <snowing> cactus
1268 2011-07-01 08:28:06 <pogden> I'm not even an |_|83|2 |_337 |-|4><0RZ and i know this
1269 2011-07-01 08:28:39 <doublec> pogden: obviously they should have used a teller database somewhere in that file
1270 2011-07-01 08:28:57 pogden has left ("Konversation terminated!")
1271 2011-07-01 08:29:03 pogden has joined
1272 2011-07-01 08:29:08 <alexbobp> well I guess I just caught the floundering tail end of the trollan
1273 2011-07-01 08:29:09 <alexbobp> oh, never mind
1274 2011-07-01 08:29:18 dan_a has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1275 2011-07-01 08:29:23 <pogden> Sorry I thought someone was in my house
1276 2011-07-01 08:29:30 d1g1t4l has joined
1277 2011-07-01 08:29:42 <snowing> probably someone from the CIA
1278 2011-07-01 08:29:48 <pogden> Who is jgarzik and why is he commiting insecure code, that's what I want to know. This algorithm is broken
1279 2011-07-01 08:30:33 <mtrlt> you are so obviously jargon :P
1280 2011-07-01 08:30:42 <doublec> He's probably the someone in your house. You should ask him.
1281 2011-07-01 08:30:58 <pogden> Who?
1282 2011-07-01 08:31:08 <doublec> Him.
1283 2011-07-01 08:31:20 <pogden> garzik? I think so
1284 2011-07-01 08:31:28 <pogden> Or one of the other agents in bitcoin
1285 2011-07-01 08:31:41 Kothar has quit (Quit: Farewell)
1286 2011-07-01 08:31:44 <pogden> This whole thing is just a front to weed out the druggies on Silk Road.
1287 2011-07-01 08:31:55 <pogden> You people probably have agents in Tor too
1288 2011-07-01 08:32:09 Kothar has joined
1289 2011-07-01 08:32:29 <pogden> applebaum isn't getting harassed, he's using the meetings with the TSA to exchange secret information on Tor users to the government
1290 2011-07-01 08:32:34 <pogden> Bitcoin is no different.
1291 2011-07-01 08:33:29 B0g4r7_ has joined
1292 2011-07-01 08:33:45 <pogden> Clearly you guys are shocked by this revelation.
1293 2011-07-01 08:33:58 <pogden> I think that it's obvious that it's the truth now.
1294 2011-07-01 08:34:06 <pogden> You guys really need to move to base64 encryption for this
1295 2011-07-01 08:34:11 <pogden> before more people invest money
1296 2011-07-01 08:34:14 <pogden> you're playing with lives.
1297 2011-07-01 08:34:20 <pogden> This isn't a toy, you know. Seriously
1298 2011-07-01 08:34:35 <pogden> And applebaum and jgarzik are only toying with you, you guys will end up with your backs against the wall.
1299 2011-07-01 08:34:39 pogden has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1300 2011-07-01 08:35:07 * Graet shores up wall just in  case
1301 2011-07-01 08:35:07 <alexbobp> so if anyone's scrambling to sell your bitcoins after that
1302 2011-07-01 08:35:09 <alexbobp> I'll buy them
1303 2011-07-01 08:35:10 <alexbobp> dwolla
1304 2011-07-01 08:35:23 abragin has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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1306 2011-07-01 08:35:29 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
1307 2011-07-01 08:35:31 <alexbobp> how about $10 a coin... they'll be worth $10 less than that in a few hours!
1308 2011-07-01 08:35:50 <Graet> olol
1309 2011-07-01 08:36:05 <alexbobp> did he convince nobody?
1310 2011-07-01 08:36:08 <alexbobp> I need to hire a better one
1311 2011-07-01 08:36:23 <Graet> LOL
1312 2011-07-01 08:36:36 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1317 2011-07-01 08:37:16 <jgarzik> rotfl
1318 2011-07-01 08:37:28 <SomeoneWeird> anyone got any ideas, im getting "[2011-07-01 08:34:35.510917] HTTP request failed: couldn't connect to host
1319 2011-07-01 08:37:28 <SomeoneWeird> " in the console for pushpool when someone tries to connect
1320 2011-07-01 08:38:06 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird: something's wrong with your bitcoind, or the connection thereof
1321 2011-07-01 08:38:14 <SomeoneWeird> hmm
1322 2011-07-01 08:39:55 <cuddlefish> Hey, I wrote a non-CPUable proof-of-work scheme using nothing cryptographic except SHA-512 (Any hash algorithm would work, however.)
1323 2011-07-01 08:39:59 <alexbobp> probably your base58 got haxx0rz3d
1324 2011-07-01 08:40:03 <cuddlefish> sorry, non GPUable
1325 2011-07-01 08:40:17 <cuddlefish> hard to make an ASIC for either
1326 2011-07-01 08:40:51 <cuddlefish> effectively it's optimized for a desktop computer, and 'de-optimized' for everything else
1327 2011-07-01 08:40:54 <Shuro> is there some chance to prognose the fee i have to pay? (btc-client asks, but headlessclient only sends and pay the fee automaticly)
1328 2011-07-01 08:41:46 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: memory-heavy, or somesuch?
1329 2011-07-01 08:42:00 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: Very memory-heavy, and not even slightly parallelizable
1330 2011-07-01 08:42:10 <lfm> cuddlefish: how do you make it non-gpuable?
1331 2011-07-01 08:42:23 <cuddlefish> lfm: see above :P
1332 2011-07-01 08:42:46 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: ...and does the PoW get "easier" if you create a block with zero transactions, versus a block with transactions?
1333 2011-07-01 08:43:21 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: Eh, it's not a PoW, sorry, it's just a very slow hash algorithm, but you can still check if it's less than a target
1334 2011-07-01 08:43:22 <spirals> Shuro: -paytxfee [fee]
1335 2011-07-01 08:43:26 <spirals> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
1336 2011-07-01 08:44:45 <lfm> how much memory does it need then?
1337 2011-07-01 08:45:03 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: the reason I mention is because a key ingredient of bitcoin is the lack of incentive for miners to hash empty blocks.  a block with 1,000 TXs takes the same time as a block with zero TXs, so you are not incentivized to ignore TXs just for block reward.
1338 2011-07-01 08:45:19 <jgarzik> that may or may not be applicable to what you're hashing
1339 2011-07-01 08:45:39 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: It'll hash arbitrary date
1340 2011-07-01 08:45:40 <cuddlefish> data
1341 2011-07-01 08:52:13 conjre has joined
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1343 2011-07-01 08:54:39 <egecko> how would you run a program as another user in linux? e.g. if i want to run bitcoind under a "testuser1" user account?
1344 2011-07-01 08:55:11 <SomeoneWeird> sudo -u <user> <program>
1345 2011-07-01 08:57:38 torsthaldo has joined
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1356 2011-07-01 09:19:49 TD has joined
1357 2011-07-01 09:21:24 <MrSam> Morn
1358 2011-07-01 09:21:25 <MrSam> :)
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1362 2011-07-01 09:24:38 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r118 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/TransactionInput.java: Remove stray import.
1363 2011-07-01 09:24:46 slush has joined
1364 2011-07-01 09:27:28 <Shuro> spirals: thanks, is there an possibility to get the transaction-size?
1365 2011-07-01 09:28:49 quiccker has joined
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1371 2011-07-01 09:36:17 <xelister> groffer: oh. meeeh. how to disable?
1372 2011-07-01 09:36:57 Akinava has joined
1373 2011-07-01 09:38:38 <dobalina> can anyone here shed some light on these so called bitcoin miner programs...
1374 2011-07-01 09:38:57 <dobalina> i mean what's the trust level with them...
1375 2011-07-01 09:39:13 jzknight has joined
1376 2011-07-01 09:39:19 <mtrlt> what do you mean
1377 2011-07-01 09:39:21 <dobalina> how does one know they don't contain some sort of malicious code
1378 2011-07-01 09:39:23 <mtrlt> most are open source
1379 2011-07-01 09:39:27 <dobalina> right
1380 2011-07-01 09:39:35 <dobalina> but anyone can code one
1381 2011-07-01 09:39:40 <mtrlt> yep
1382 2011-07-01 09:39:43 <xelister> dobalina: how you know firefox does not contain some sort of malicious code?
1383 2011-07-01 09:40:17 <dobalina> the accountability of the people and company behind it subjects it to the laws of the jurisdiction it's in
1384 2011-07-01 09:40:24 <xelister> trolololo
1385 2011-07-01 09:40:29 <xelister> dobalina: u mad bro?
1386 2011-07-01 09:40:32 Katibe has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1387 2011-07-01 09:40:47 <mtrlt> dobalina: what's the problem if anyone can code a miner?
1388 2011-07-01 09:40:47 <xelister> dobalina: firefox could shred your disk and eat your fish and you couldn't do a shit about it
1389 2011-07-01 09:40:57 <xelister> dobalina: read any software
1390 2011-07-01 09:41:00 <xelister> disclamer.
1391 2011-07-01 09:41:07 <xelister> any software's licence
1392 2011-07-01 09:41:39 kytibe has joined
1393 2011-07-01 09:41:47 <dobalina> mm true but at least they have a registered corporation which is subject to law
1394 2011-07-01 09:42:03 <dobalina> so there would be repercussions even if you waive yoru rights in teh software license
1395 2011-07-01 09:42:15 <mtrlt> answer my question and not his troll questions please
1396 2011-07-01 09:42:16 <xelister> dobalina: how do you know an orphanage - a registered organization
1397 2011-07-01 09:42:20 <dobalina> but witha  random bitcoin client coded by some anonymous person?
1398 2011-07-01 09:42:25 <xelister> will not rape children it is "taking care of"?
1399 2011-07-01 09:42:32 <neofutur> dobalina: you p{ay a developper to auditthe code
1400 2011-07-01 09:42:32 <xelister> hint: they often do
1401 2011-07-01 09:42:37 <neofutur> and tell you its secure or not
1402 2011-07-01 09:42:40 tltRipley has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1403 2011-07-01 09:43:04 <neofutur> or you learn the language and do it yourself
1404 2011-07-01 09:43:09 <egecko> grrr
1405 2011-07-01 09:43:11 <xelister> dobalina: with short minerp rograms you can at least verify them, or trust the reputation on the line of person doing it
1406 2011-07-01 09:43:13 <neofutur> or you trust the open source community
1407 2011-07-01 09:43:15 <xelister> nothing is 100% sure then
1408 2011-07-01 09:43:28 <dobalina> naturally well what's the track record then
1409 2011-07-01 09:43:29 <mtrlt> you also have to trust the compiler
1410 2011-07-01 09:43:31 <xelister> sometimes there are rogue opensource programs
1411 2011-07-01 09:43:36 <mtrlt> etc
1412 2011-07-01 09:43:52 <dobalina> i woudl have thought the official bitcoin devs would at least develop a program of "certification" of some sort
1413 2011-07-01 09:43:58 <xelister> sometimes your goverment and police are a bunch of stealing corrupt idiots
1414 2011-07-01 09:44:04 <dobalina> and list them on your site or whatever
1415 2011-07-01 09:44:06 <mtrlt> dobalina: that would entail centralization. centralization is shit
1416 2011-07-01 09:44:32 <xelister> sometimes the legall bought Sony music CD will infect your computer with troyans or the data you trust Sony with will leak like crazy to internet
1417 2011-07-01 09:44:40 <dobalina> of course :)
1418 2011-07-01 09:44:41 <neofutur> dobalina: this wouldtake time, you  ll pay for this ?
1419 2011-07-01 09:44:42 <wladston> miners out there : if my motherboard doesn't support PCIe 2.1 (only 1.0) is the impact on the permormance hard ?
1420 2011-07-01 09:44:47 <dobalina> i'll help out ;)
1421 2011-07-01 09:44:52 <neofutur> dobalina: build this certific{ation yourself ?
1422 2011-07-01 09:44:56 <mtrlt> wladston: none
1423 2011-07-01 09:45:02 <dobalina> this is the official dev chan for the bitcoin devs right? ;)
1424 2011-07-01 09:45:08 <dobalina> so which do you recommend
1425 2011-07-01 09:45:11 <dobalina> open source
1426 2011-07-01 09:45:18 <dobalina> clean and shortest code as possible
1427 2011-07-01 09:45:27 <dobalina> i'll gladly audit the code myself
1428 2011-07-01 09:45:27 <wladston> mtrlt: wow, really ? good to know :)
1429 2011-07-01 09:45:27 <mtrlt> certification for what?
1430 2011-07-01 09:45:28 <neofutur> theres an official client, that can mine
1431 2011-07-01 09:45:37 <dobalina> bitcoin.exe ?
1432 2011-07-01 09:45:40 <mtrlt> wladston: yep. the bus isn't used a lot at all.
1433 2011-07-01 09:45:48 <neofutur> and I recommend the minerd , cpuminer
1434 2011-07-01 09:45:49 <dsockwell> i would only trust a Microsoft btc miner
1435 2011-07-01 09:45:59 <neofutur> code seems clean
1436 2011-07-01 09:46:00 <xelister> dsockwell: bitch you crazy? :o
1437 2011-07-01 09:46:05 <wladston> I use the ufasoft cpu miner
1438 2011-07-01 09:46:08 <dsockwell> WHAT IF I AM
1439 2011-07-01 09:46:16 <wladston> it performs way better than the cpuminer
1440 2011-07-01 09:46:27 <dobalina> utilizing GPU instead of CPU?
1441 2011-07-01 09:46:33 <dobalina> or is there one that combines the two
1442 2011-07-01 09:46:36 <neofutur> dobalina: if its a .exe, you use windows and its not secure
1443 2011-07-01 09:46:51 <neofutur> dont worry about the bitcoin client, install linux first ;)
1444 2011-07-01 09:46:57 <wladston> dobalina: listen to neofutur :)
1445 2011-07-01 09:46:58 <mtrlt> yep
1446 2011-07-01 09:47:11 <dsockwell> linux is written by god-knows-who in their basements, not companies who can be sued
1447 2011-07-01 09:47:15 <dobalina> i use all *nixes and windows dont' worry :)
1448 2011-07-01 09:47:35 <dobalina> but presumably bitcoin.org isn't going to link to a malicious win binary on their site
1449 2011-07-01 09:47:37 <neofutur> dsockwell: who can sue microsoft after being hacked ?
1450 2011-07-01 09:47:38 <dsockwell> I would only trust a Microsoft linux OS.
1451 2011-07-01 09:47:40 <dobalina> one must have some faith
1452 2011-07-01 09:47:46 <wladston> I'm about to buy a HD 6850
1453 2011-07-01 09:47:50 stuhood has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1454 2011-07-01 09:47:58 <neofutur> dsockwell: you can pay redhat or mandrake
1455 2011-07-01 09:48:03 <neofutur> to have a supported version
1456 2011-07-01 09:48:06 <wladston> as soon as the stores are open I'll do it
1457 2011-07-01 09:48:13 <wladston> let's hope it will work
1458 2011-07-01 09:48:16 <wladston> :)
1459 2011-07-01 09:48:17 <dsockwell> they're two-bit companies, though, they might be run out of a garage or a PO box
1460 2011-07-01 09:48:18 <mtrlt> wladston: there's also a mining channel #bitcoin-mining :)
1461 2011-07-01 09:48:37 <wladston> mtrlt: I was unaware .. thanks!
1462 2011-07-01 09:48:38 <neofutur> dsockwell: you know nothing of what is redhat
1463 2011-07-01 09:49:03 <dsockwell> i know they release a free distribution, so that anyone can copy it.
1464 2011-07-01 09:49:22 <dsockwell> how am I supposed to be protected from copyright fraud if anyone and everyone just pirates the OS i'm using?
1465 2011-07-01 09:49:25 <dobalina> the official bitcoin mining client isn't even listed on bitcoin.org though?  just the transaction client?  or are you saying they're one and the same
1466 2011-07-01 09:49:40 <mtrlt> the official client _had_ a slow cpu miner
1467 2011-07-01 09:49:45 <xelister> dsockwell: wtg is "copyright fraud"?  trolling much today?
1468 2011-07-01 09:49:48 <MrSam> slow slow
1469 2011-07-01 09:49:51 <mtrlt> maybe it still has it but it's still slow
1470 2011-07-01 09:49:55 <mtrlt> slow for even a cpu miner
1471 2011-07-01 09:50:03 <xelister> nope it was the fastest cpu miner, no?
1472 2011-07-01 09:50:13 <mtrlt> no?
1473 2011-07-01 09:50:18 slush has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1474 2011-07-01 09:50:19 <dsockwell> xelister: someone could be running an exact copy of my installation, with the same licensing info and everything
1475 2011-07-01 09:50:22 <dobalina> and it mines automatically just by virtue of having the main client running inthe background?
1476 2011-07-01 09:50:23 <mtrlt> like only 50% of the speed of the fastest i ever tried
1477 2011-07-01 09:50:27 <dsockwell> it's a vicious cloning attack
1478 2011-07-01 09:50:33 <mtrlt> it can't even pool mine
1479 2011-07-01 09:51:03 <dobalina> cuz the main client uses jack shit of my cpu and there are no options i can see in the program to "launch" it
1480 2011-07-01 09:51:17 <dobalina> so it's a seperate program that needs to be downloaded youj're saying?
1481 2011-07-01 09:51:26 <dsockwell> dobalina: that's evidene that you're running a trojan horse and not a valid bitcoin client
1482 2011-07-01 09:51:26 <mtrlt> yes
1483 2011-07-01 09:51:29 <MrSam> ./bitcoind setgenerate true or something like that
1484 2011-07-01 09:51:31 <dobalina> yet it's not linked on bitcoin.org ?
1485 2011-07-01 09:51:36 <mtrlt> don't use the official client for mining
1486 2011-07-01 09:51:41 <mtrlt> use a separate program.
1487 2011-07-01 09:51:41 <xelister> cpu mining is waste of time
1488 2011-07-01 09:51:47 <mtrlt> that, too.
1489 2011-07-01 09:51:49 <MrSam> waste of cycles !
1490 2011-07-01 09:51:49 <dobalina> dsockwell very funny :P
1491 2011-07-01 09:51:50 <MrSam> :)
1492 2011-07-01 09:52:15 <MrSam> i'm glad that we are discussing mining
1493 2011-07-01 09:52:16 <dobalina> in that case the sourceforge link on teh main bitcoin.org has been poisoned ;)
1494 2011-07-01 09:52:22 <dsockwell> also why would you run a non-keyed program like that, with no copy protection?
1495 2011-07-01 09:52:26 <dobalina> and then so is everyone
1496 2011-07-01 09:52:29 <MrSam> i would like to take the opportunity to invite everyone to my pool :P
1497 2011-07-01 09:52:30 <MrSam> https://www.triplemining.com/
1498 2011-07-01 09:52:32 <MrSam> :P
1499 2011-07-01 09:52:42 <MrSam> 100% fun, as seen on tv
1500 2011-07-01 09:52:48 <mtrlt> oh, the ponzipool?
1501 2011-07-01 09:52:49 <mtrlt> :>
1502 2011-07-01 09:52:55 <MrSam> stop with the ponzi stuff :P
1503 2011-07-01 09:53:19 <mtrlt> no thanks, i don't wanna gamble with mining :P
1504 2011-07-01 09:53:35 <dsockwell> is it a legitimate ponzi scheme?
1505 2011-07-01 09:53:40 <MrSam> very much :)
1506 2011-07-01 09:53:43 <dsockwell> i'll only buy into an authentic and certified ponzi scheme
1507 2011-07-01 09:53:47 <mtrlt> legitimate ponzi == oxymoron :P
1508 2011-07-01 09:53:50 vigilyn has joined
1509 2011-07-01 09:54:21 <dobalina> all in all it's starting to sound like mining is a complete waste of time as there seems to be no accountability or standard to it
1510 2011-07-01 09:54:24 <lfm> Ponzi himself endorses it, right?
1511 2011-07-01 09:54:31 <spirals> shuro: yes, with the 'getinfo' command
1512 2011-07-01 09:54:33 <MrSam> lfm: he won the jackpot yesterday
1513 2011-07-01 09:54:46 <dsockwell> dobalina: to be certain
1514 2011-07-01 09:55:01 <dobalina> which means people have to purchase bitcoin with regular government sanctioned currencies
1515 2011-07-01 09:55:03 <dsockwell> dobalina: honestly bitcoin can be considered one big botnet
1516 2011-07-01 09:55:06 <mtrlt> dobalina: then, don't mine.
1517 2011-07-01 09:55:10 <mtrlt> dobalina: i mine and am happy
1518 2011-07-01 09:55:17 <dsockwell> bitcoin is nothing but blackhats
1519 2011-07-01 09:55:24 <mtrlt> i don't worry about accountability or shit like that
1520 2011-07-01 09:55:32 <mtrlt> that's for bureaucrats, and i'm no bureaucrat
1521 2011-07-01 09:55:36 <dobalina> which means paper trail which means the whole philosophy of bitcoin goes out the window and is made redundant
1522 2011-07-01 09:55:53 <dobalina> which means the banks can still track and regulate bitcoin
1523 2011-07-01 09:55:59 <dsockwell> yes
1524 2011-07-01 09:56:21 <MrSam> i heard on the news that the .eu is going to add comission on bank transfer fee's
1525 2011-07-01 09:56:24 <dsockwell> bitcoin was instantiated by the global banking illuminati jews to trap people who aren't under their spell
1526 2011-07-01 09:56:33 <MrSam> maybe they should take fee's on btc as well
1527 2011-07-01 09:56:38 <lfm> dobalina: Its open source, you can see what it is doing
1528 2011-07-01 09:56:50 <dsockwell> into running open-source software that can't be verified as genuine
1529 2011-07-01 09:56:56 <mtrlt> MrSam: how are they gonna do that :P
1530 2011-07-01 09:56:59 <dsockwell> why would you run a software package that doesn't come with a hologram?
1531 2011-07-01 09:57:16 <MrSam> mtrlt: by minin and recuperating txfee's !
1532 2011-07-01 09:57:24 <mtrlt> lul
1533 2011-07-01 09:57:28 <MrSam> now all i have to do is convice them to join my pool
1534 2011-07-01 09:57:31 <mtrlt> haha
1535 2011-07-01 09:57:43 <MrSam> i'll give barosso a call later today
1536 2011-07-01 09:57:54 <mtrlt> i'd like to see the bureaucrats try to grasp the concept of mining bitcoins
1537 2011-07-01 09:57:59 <dobalina> and what usage are the cpu/gpu cycles put to ? because presumably you can let it utilize your horsepower but you wont' get anything out of it from what i'm hearing in here
1538 2011-07-01 09:58:01 <Shuro> spirals: which part of getinfo? there is no txsize
1539 2011-07-01 09:58:26 <mtrlt> dobalina: no, you will get bitcoins
1540 2011-07-01 09:58:37 <mtrlt> dobalina: but for some, the price of electricity is higher than the bitcoins you get.
1541 2011-07-01 09:59:20 <lfm> dobalina: you can still make money with gpus
1542 2011-07-01 09:59:37 <dobalina> mtrlt i can well imagine :-/
1543 2011-07-01 09:59:50 <dsockwell> bitcoins are worthless anyway
1544 2011-07-01 10:00:00 <dsockwell> they're made by destroying a commodity
1545 2011-07-01 10:00:01 <mtrlt> well so is your mom
1546 2011-07-01 10:00:06 <MrSam> mtrlt++
1547 2011-07-01 10:00:12 <dsockwell> a bitcoin represents a net loss to the world
1548 2011-07-01 10:00:17 <dobalina> it's sounding more and more to me that the whole project may be doomed from the start if these issues aren't solved
1549 2011-07-01 10:00:24 <mtrlt> dobalina: what issues?
1550 2011-07-01 10:00:27 <dsockwell> dobalina: absolutely
1551 2011-07-01 10:00:41 <lfm> dsockwell: well if $16 us == 1 BTC is your definition of worthless
1552 2011-07-01 10:00:54 <dobalina> dsockwell are you trying to be funny or sarcastic? :P
1553 2011-07-01 10:00:55 <dsockwell> lfm: nothing but a bubble inflated by false publicity
1554 2011-07-01 10:00:56 <mtrlt> dobalina: the issue that you don't know what mining exactly does? it is solved by you reading the code of several opensource miners :P
1555 2011-07-01 10:01:00 <neofutur> dobalina: which issues ?
1556 2011-07-01 10:01:02 <enquirer> main issue is nobody is using it except mining and specilating
1557 2011-07-01 10:01:10 <neofutur> i seen no issues
1558 2011-07-01 10:01:11 <MrSam> i'm allready used to this bubble talk
1559 2011-07-01 10:01:20 <MrSam> people are saying the same about silver an gold
1560 2011-07-01 10:01:22 <MrSam> yet here we are
1561 2011-07-01 10:01:25 <lfm> dsockwell: so you want to buy some cheap ones soon eh?
1562 2011-07-01 10:01:29 <dsockwell> dobalina: no, seriously, bitcoins represent reverse entropy.  energy goes in, and nothing but stupid strings of bits come out.
1563 2011-07-01 10:01:39 <MrSam> the funny thing is that it's not btc or gold or silver that is improving
1564 2011-07-01 10:01:41 <mtrlt> dsockwell: what is "false" and what is "true" publicity?
1565 2011-07-01 10:01:46 <MrSam> it is the fucking usd that is losing value :P
1566 2011-07-01 10:01:49 <mtrlt> dsockwell: there is only publicity. no truth value assigned
1567 2011-07-01 10:02:05 <dobalina> in that case one should just start a "paid" botnet
1568 2011-07-01 10:02:12 <dsockwell> yup
1569 2011-07-01 10:02:16 <mtrlt> dsockwell: strings of bits that actually verity transactions
1570 2011-07-01 10:02:24 <mtrlt> verify
1571 2011-07-01 10:02:25 <dsockwell> it's just information though
1572 2011-07-01 10:02:32 <lfm> the only reaon anyone would waste their time bad mouthing bitcoin is to drive the price down so they can buy em cheaper
1573 2011-07-01 10:02:33 <dobalina> ie. ppl rent out their cpu/gpu/bandwidth and get a bank transfer every month or whatever
1574 2011-07-01 10:02:34 <mtrlt> yea?
1575 2011-07-01 10:02:34 <dsockwell> you can regard or disreagard it
1576 2011-07-01 10:02:46 <dsockwell> bitcoin has no staying power, nobody will ever pay taxes in bitcoin
1577 2011-07-01 10:02:53 <mtrlt> dsockwell: VAT?
1578 2011-07-01 10:03:00 <mtrlt> dsockwell: as rick falkvinge explained.
1579 2011-07-01 10:03:22 <dsockwell> you have to convert it to a currency that's legal tender to pay taxes
1580 2011-07-01 10:03:33 lumos has joined
1581 2011-07-01 10:03:45 <mtrlt> yea, and?
1582 2011-07-01 10:03:51 <mtrlt> you can do that easily enough
1583 2011-07-01 10:04:01 <dobalina> from the official FAQ about cpu/gpu cycles:  They serve the purpose of securing the Bitcoin network, which is useful.
1584 2011-07-01 10:04:07 <dobalina> this means absolutely jack shit
1585 2011-07-01 10:04:13 <dobalina> :-/
1586 2011-07-01 10:04:15 <dsockwell> bitcoin could be destroyed by a worm tomorrow and there would be no one to guarantee the losses.
1587 2011-07-01 10:04:17 <mtrlt> dobalina: i already told you to read a miner's source code
1588 2011-07-01 10:04:29 <mtrlt> if you can't, too bad :P
1589 2011-07-01 10:04:39 <dobalina> oh i can and i will
1590 2011-07-01 10:04:40 <jeremias> dsockwell: what kind of worm would that be
1591 2011-07-01 10:04:41 <dsockwell> dobalina: are you writing an article?
1592 2011-07-01 10:05:10 <enquirer> much money needs to be invested for this project to take off
1593 2011-07-01 10:05:12 <dobalina> nope i literally just installed bitcoin last night first time
1594 2011-07-01 10:05:20 <enquirer> how about a fund
1595 2011-07-01 10:05:24 <mtrlt> dobalina: it's basically trying SHA256(SHA256(blockheader)) with different values until the hash is less than the target.
1596 2011-07-01 10:05:36 <dobalina> so i'm just trying to figure out what all this hype is about and the more i dig the more bullshit all those media and press reports are
1597 2011-07-01 10:06:05 <dsockwell> jeremias: i'm not sure, honestly.  it would have to exploit a bug in some network-facing code in the bitcoin client, and insert a payload to exploit that bug in other clients over the p2p network mesh
1598 2011-07-01 10:06:07 <mtrlt> and when it is, you get paid. woo.
1599 2011-07-01 10:06:16 <enquirer> find some crazy billionaire + early adopters should contribute some
1600 2011-07-01 10:06:44 <dsockwell> it could even be a malformed transaction request
1601 2011-07-01 10:06:57 <dsockwell> as unlikely as i'm sure that is
1602 2011-07-01 10:07:04 <dobalina> i was hoping for a true system that could solve the problems of underpinning banks control on certain things but apparently not
1603 2011-07-01 10:07:14 <dsockwell> nope
1604 2011-07-01 10:07:18 <dobalina> because in the REAL world things essentially always come down to enforcement
1605 2011-07-01 10:07:18 <dsockwell> only smoke and mirrors to see here dobalina
1606 2011-07-01 10:07:26 <dobalina> and unless you got the guns and man power you've got jack shit
1607 2011-07-01 10:07:27 <mtrlt> >_>
1608 2011-07-01 10:07:44 <mtrlt> dsockwell: then why are you wasting time here :P
1609 2011-07-01 10:07:51 <dobalina> i dont' find it a waste of time
1610 2011-07-01 10:07:54 <neofutur>  /ignore dsockwell
1611 2011-07-01 10:07:58 <neofutur> oups
1612 2011-07-01 10:08:11 <MrSam> :)
1613 2011-07-01 10:08:12 <dsockwell> you typed my name by accident :o
1614 2011-07-01 10:08:12 <enquirer> they made you use google under gun?
1615 2011-07-01 10:08:25 <MrSam> google + ?
1616 2011-07-01 10:08:29 <dobalina> i want to learn so maybe i can try and help come up with a true system that actually does what bitcoin seeks to do but clearly doesn't from a code perspective due to some pretty obvious caveats
1617 2011-07-01 10:08:44 <mtrlt> dobalina: well, remind me again. what are the caveats?
1618 2011-07-01 10:08:52 <dsockwell> it doesn't do anything
1619 2011-07-01 10:08:55 <mtrlt> where's the cave at
1620 2011-07-01 10:09:00 <neofutur> dobalina: pretty obvious caveats ?
1621 2011-07-01 10:09:07 <neofutur> obvious only for you :p
1622 2011-07-01 10:09:11 <mtrlt> dsockwell: it does everything
1623 2011-07-01 10:09:13 <neofutur> and you re not even a developper
1624 2011-07-01 10:09:14 <dsockwell> there's no increase in entropy
1625 2011-07-01 10:09:34 <neofutur> you pointed no caveat a all
1626 2011-07-01 10:09:41 <neofutur> your opinion is not a caveat
1627 2011-07-01 10:09:47 <dsockwell> the only thing bitcoin produces is some silicon and copper warms up
1628 2011-07-01 10:09:54 <dobalina> the fact taht it's supposed to be an alternative from having to have the central banks being able to control the full system yet bitcoin is built on the back of that very system and dependent on it
1629 2011-07-01 10:10:04 <mtrlt> dobalina: how is it dependent on it?
1630 2011-07-01 10:10:07 <dobalina> ie. buying bitcoins with gvt sanctioned currency
1631 2011-07-01 10:10:12 <mtrlt> dobalina: currently not many places accept bitcoins but soon they will.
1632 2011-07-01 10:10:13 <neofutur> dobalina: its not
1633 2011-07-01 10:10:25 <neofutur> dobalina: you can work for bitcoins
1634 2011-07-01 10:10:34 <dobalina> what's teh competition to bitcoin like?  any other rival projects?
1635 2011-07-01 10:10:44 <neofutur> dobalina: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=1687.0
1636 2011-07-01 10:10:50 <dsockwell> but we just proved you can't, the miners can't ever reach their goal
1637 2011-07-01 10:10:50 <neofutur> my bitcoin services
1638 2011-07-01 10:11:06 <mtrlt> dsockwell: the goal being some bullshit about entropy?
1639 2011-07-01 10:11:10 <mtrlt> or the actual goal?
1640 2011-07-01 10:11:10 <dsockwell> right
1641 2011-07-01 10:11:15 <neofutur> dobalina: rival projects are already dead, those had caveats
1642 2011-07-01 10:11:19 <mtrlt> the goal is to verify transactions
1643 2011-07-01 10:11:21 <dsockwell> the goal of producing a product that people want
1644 2011-07-01 10:11:27 <mtrlt> not do thermodynamical law shit
1645 2011-07-01 10:11:29 <dsockwell> bitcoin doesn't exist
1646 2011-07-01 10:11:30 <dobalina> until the whole mining thing is done properly the bitcoin is basically useless from what i'm hearing here
1647 2011-07-01 10:11:57 <dobalina> so the gpu/cpu cycels all go to verifying teh transactions?
1648 2011-07-01 10:11:58 <mtrlt> dobalina: well, how is it done improperly?
1649 2011-07-01 10:12:06 dedeibel has joined
1650 2011-07-01 10:12:08 <mtrlt> dobalina: they go to verifying that work was put into calculating it
1651 2011-07-01 10:12:11 <mtrlt> dobalina: which makes it secure.
1652 2011-07-01 10:12:23 <dsockwell> it does some bullshit calculation and then claims it as the 'truth'
1653 2011-07-01 10:12:28 <dobalina> by work you mean calculations?
1654 2011-07-01 10:12:28 <mtrlt> dsockwell: no.
1655 2011-07-01 10:12:31 <dobalina> hmm right
1656 2011-07-01 10:12:32 <dsockwell> i can do that without going through a billion rounds
1657 2011-07-01 10:12:33 <mtrlt> dsockwell: it does sha-256 hashes
1658 2011-07-01 10:12:43 <mtrlt> dsockwell: you obviously don't know shit so stfu
1659 2011-07-01 10:12:48 <mtrlt> and read a miner's code
1660 2011-07-01 10:12:48 <neofutur> dobalina: by work i mean work
1661 2011-07-01 10:12:50 <mtrlt> then come back
1662 2011-07-01 10:13:03 <dobalina> well why not put those cpu cycles to real use ie. like calculations relevant to solving real scientific and mathetmatical problems?
1663 2011-07-01 10:13:04 <neofutur> like you work for dollars
1664 2011-07-01 10:13:10 <dobalina> you know like the whole industry of super computers?
1665 2011-07-01 10:13:11 <mtrlt> dobalina: it doesn't work like that
1666 2011-07-01 10:13:20 <dobalina> or cloud computing even
1667 2011-07-01 10:13:21 <mtrlt> dobalina: ~everyone always suggests that but it doesn't work like that
1668 2011-07-01 10:13:22 <dsockwell> the truth is that nobody wants bitcoin blocks
1669 2011-07-01 10:13:33 <dsockwell> they're only useful in their own context
1670 2011-07-01 10:13:41 <dobalina> dsockwell what the hell is wrong with you man?
1671 2011-07-01 10:13:44 <mtrlt> dsockwell: nobody wants bitcoins? why is their value over $15 then?
1672 2011-07-01 10:13:48 <dobalina> i can't tell if you're ever being serious
1673 2011-07-01 10:14:00 <dsockwell> that's because you can't recognize the truth.
1674 2011-07-01 10:14:06 <dobalina> sounds like you're just trolling the shit out this discussion
1675 2011-07-01 10:14:07 <mtrlt> well
1676 2011-07-01 10:14:11 <mtrlt> dsockwell doesn't even know what mining is
1677 2011-07-01 10:14:17 <mtrlt> i think he's just ignorant
1678 2011-07-01 10:14:23 <egecko> anyone have bitcoind running at startup on linux?
1679 2011-07-01 10:14:25 <dsockwell> mining is where you refine raw materials into pure forms
1680 2011-07-01 10:14:27 <dobalina> i think he's just trolling :-/
1681 2011-07-01 10:14:30 <mtrlt> yep
1682 2011-07-01 10:14:32 <mtrlt> pure trollage
1683 2011-07-01 10:14:46 <dobalina> where the ops when you need them ;)
1684 2011-07-01 10:14:49 Nexus_7 has joined
1685 2011-07-01 10:14:50 <mtrlt> :P
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1690 2011-07-01 10:15:05 <dsockwell> anyway, bitcoin suffers from a crisis of solipsism
1691 2011-07-01 10:15:11 <dobalina> why do you say though it doesn't work like that mtrlt?
1692 2011-07-01 10:15:12 <mtrlt> yeaaah, solipsism
1693 2011-07-01 10:15:27 <dsockwell> that is bitcoin only works within its own defined scope
1694 2011-07-01 10:15:27 <mtrlt> dobalina: because the current calculations are hard to calculate, easy to verify
1695 2011-07-01 10:15:29 <dobalina> due to the fact that there's no centralization or accountabiilty?
1696 2011-07-01 10:15:35 <mtrlt> dobalina: scientific or other "useful" calculations are not like that
1697 2011-07-01 10:16:02 <dobalina> no i mean in terms of sellign the gpu/cpu to industry and gvt etc. to run models and calulations on as an alternative to renting time on a super computer or something
1698 2011-07-01 10:16:11 <dsockwell> but people pay good money for useful calculations
1699 2011-07-01 10:16:17 <mtrlt> well the point is to avoid the gvt in this.
1700 2011-07-01 10:16:22 <mtrlt> no centralization.
1701 2011-07-01 10:16:29 <dsockwell> nobody should pay money just for destroying data
1702 2011-07-01 10:16:36 <dobalina> maybe that's the problem then
1703 2011-07-01 10:17:13 <mtrlt> there is no problem
1704 2011-07-01 10:17:23 <mtrlt> the calculations itself are useful in verifying transactions.
1705 2011-07-01 10:17:27 <dsockwell> it's foolish to pump good energy into reducing such a huge chunk of data into a little sha256 tautology
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1707 2011-07-01 10:17:50 <mtrlt> tautology. big words. woo
1708 2011-07-01 10:18:26 <dsockwell> you could be folding proteins or measuring neutron stars as opposed to trying to make a quick buck
1709 2011-07-01 10:18:42 <mtrlt> dsockwell: scientific or other "useful" calculations are not hard to calculate, easy to verify
1710 2011-07-01 10:18:43 <MartianW> Hello everyone.
1711 2011-07-01 10:19:29 <mtrlt> they're hard to calculate and equally hard to verify
1712 2011-07-01 10:19:52 <dsockwell> so if that's the only virtue of a bitcoin block, then bitcoin is based on the process of wasting energy
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1714 2011-07-01 10:20:26 <mtrlt> well, suggest a more efficient proof-of-work system, then.
1715 2011-07-01 10:20:40 <dsockwell> i don't think any other currency necessitates the destruction of the commodities it represents
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1717 2011-07-01 10:21:16 <UukGoblin> dsockwell, it's not wasting energy, it's using it to solve the double-spending problem
1718 2011-07-01 10:21:49 <dsockwell> a problem that exists by virtue of the bitcoin blockchain having an assigned value
1719 2011-07-01 10:21:58 <mtrlt> dsockwell: suggest a more efficient proof-of-work system.ö
1720 2011-07-01 10:22:09 <dsockwell> I don't think there should be one.
1721 2011-07-01 10:22:16 <amiller> dsockwell, it is NOT a commodity
1722 2011-07-01 10:22:22 <mtrlt> so go use your centralized currency
1723 2011-07-01 10:22:29 <mtrlt> and never touch bitcoin again
1724 2011-07-01 10:22:31 <amiller> dsockwell, er that is, bitcoins do NOT reflect the commodity price of cpu, that's just not what it's doing
1725 2011-07-01 10:22:42 <dobalina> sorry was afk had to take a call
1726 2011-07-01 10:23:03 <amiller> dsockwell, i estimated a couple weeks ago that the price of running the bitcoin network, just in power costs (at bulk industrial rates in iowa or something) is $4k a day
1727 2011-07-01 10:23:28 <amiller> dsockwell, that's the bounty on fucking with bitcoin, the price it would take to stop everyone from trading simply by applying GPUs to it
1728 2011-07-01 10:23:33 <UukGoblin> amiller, that's sounds a bit below
1729 2011-07-01 10:23:58 <amiller> dsockwell, it's like turning on a force field
1730 2011-07-01 10:24:05 <UukGoblin> amiller, at ~10Ghash it costs me something like... $1000/month... and I'm about 1/1000th of the whole thing...
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1732 2011-07-01 10:24:07 <dsockwell> so in essence the bitcoin network is taking that $4k per day in energy and selling it for above marekt price
1733 2011-07-01 10:24:07 <amiller> divert all power to to sheilds
1734 2011-07-01 10:24:24 <amiller> it's not selling it, it consumes it while making the network difficult to attack
1735 2011-07-01 10:24:29 <UukGoblin> amiller, should be about $33k/day assuming everyone uses 5970s
1736 2011-07-01 10:24:57 <dsockwell> it must be great having such a broad network of suckers
1737 2011-07-01 10:24:59 <amiller> UukGoblin, can you write me a google search calculator expression that has your figures in it with units
1738 2011-07-01 10:25:10 <mtrlt> dsockwell: go use your centralized currency and never touch bitcoin again.
1739 2011-07-01 10:25:46 <amiller> dsockwell, it's not unnecessary
1740 2011-07-01 10:25:50 <amiller> dsockwell, think of it as a bounty, perhaps
1741 2011-07-01 10:25:58 <amiller> dsockwell, becasue the cost is detemrined by nothing else but 'cost' itself
1742 2011-07-01 10:26:14 <amiller> the difficulty is set by what ever gpu power people put in (the diffulcyt adjusts by how fast we find hashes)
1743 2011-07-01 10:26:23 <epscy> http://blog.animeusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hatersgonnahate.jpg
1744 2011-07-01 10:26:25 <amiller> the goal is to get 10 blocks per minute, whatever that costs
1745 2011-07-01 10:26:37 <amiller> doing it with a sliding difficulty proof of work system keeps it expensive to attack
1746 2011-07-01 10:26:45 <dsockwell> so you're producing a product
1747 2011-07-01 10:26:59 d1g1t4l has joined
1748 2011-07-01 10:27:06 <dsockwell> which is a block chain that is difficult to compromise
1749 2011-07-01 10:27:07 vinsci has joined
1750 2011-07-01 10:27:15 <amiller> that's right - expensive to compromise
1751 2011-07-01 10:27:16 <dsockwell> and selling space on it for hwoever much
1752 2011-07-01 10:27:28 <dsockwell> i don't see a conflict between what you're saying and what i'm saying
1753 2011-07-01 10:27:32 <amiller> the 'space' is actually pretty cheap since its just a hash of a bunch of data
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1755 2011-07-01 10:27:55 <amiller> it's really not the storage cost, it's the 'difficulty' itself
1756 2011-07-01 10:28:15 <dsockwell> so it's value-added storage
1757 2011-07-01 10:28:24 <dsockwell> which is a storage cost
1758 2011-07-01 10:28:27 <amiller> if the storage cost per block doubles
1759 2011-07-01 10:28:36 <amiller> er if the transaction size per block doubles
1760 2011-07-01 10:28:43 <amiller> the corresponding diffulcty-cost does not double
1761 2011-07-01 10:28:47 <amiller> stays roughly constant
1762 2011-07-01 10:29:09 <dsockwell> that just means there isn't a shortage of storage
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1764 2011-07-01 10:29:20 <dsockwell> bitcoin still represents a fee for entry of data into the block chain
1765 2011-07-01 10:29:34 <dsockwell> aside from transaction bonuses paid to miners
1766 2011-07-01 10:29:50 <amiller> it's true, that is the right way to interpret the (optional, for now) fees
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1768 2011-07-01 10:30:08 <dsockwell> which is the same as spending $$$$($) to create a commodity and then selling it for $$$$$$$
1769 2011-07-01 10:30:53 <dsockwell> the value of a bitcoin only represents a specific fee for the semantic value of the data you record
1770 2011-07-01 10:31:16 <UukGoblin> dsockwell, google calculator seems to have a problem of converting joules to kWh
1771 2011-07-01 10:31:22 <amiller> 'commodity' is a pretty well understood term with a lot of implications it brings with it
1772 2011-07-01 10:31:24 <amiller> but most of those are wrong
1773 2011-07-01 10:31:31 <amiller> so i don't want to agree with you there
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1777 2011-07-01 10:32:03 <amiller> if i tell you i have a forcefield for your house that costs $100/month to run but it keeps burglars out, it's not a commodity you buy, is it?
1778 2011-07-01 10:32:11 <dsockwell> UukGoblin: it doesn't matter much, the dimensions are the same.  any difference would be a scalar
1779 2011-07-01 10:32:15 <dsockwell> sure it is
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1781 2011-07-01 10:32:23 <dsockwell> i pay $3/day for force field time
1782 2011-07-01 10:32:33 <SomeoneWeird> lol
1783 2011-07-01 10:32:33 <amiller> UukGoblin, try spelling it all out - or give me the broken expression and i'll tinker with it
1784 2011-07-01 10:32:55 <amiller> dsockwell, but the cost of the force field is exactly the strength you get
1785 2011-07-01 10:33:02 <UukGoblin> dsockwell, oh sorry I meant amiller ;-]
1786 2011-07-01 10:33:05 <amiller> also you can keep as manyu people behind the force field as you want (no additiona lcharge per person)
1787 2011-07-01 10:33:21 <dsockwell> amiller: you're not of an enterprising spirit, i see
1788 2011-07-01 10:33:28 <amiller> bicycle locks are commodities too aren't they?
1789 2011-07-01 10:33:33 <dsockwell> i would damn well charge admission
1790 2011-07-01 10:33:34 <amiller> but the price of a bicycle lock as a commodity
1791 2011-07-01 10:33:39 <amiller> isn't related to the cost it takes to destroy the lock
1792 2011-07-01 10:33:54 <dsockwell> that's how bicycle locks are sold though
1793 2011-07-01 10:34:00 <amiller> that's a difference between locks-as-commodities and bitcoin
1794 2011-07-01 10:34:15 <amiller> the price of bitcoin as a commodity is tied to the price of destruction
1795 2011-07-01 10:34:22 <amiller> that 'tying' is achieved by the fees
1796 2011-07-01 10:34:23 <dsockwell> you spend the money on the materials and the engineering to create the lock and then sell it for the price that people will pay for the cost of destroying the lock
1797 2011-07-01 10:34:34 <dsockwell> it's exactly the same
1798 2011-07-01 10:34:54 <amiller> if you find a way to build a lock at half the price
1799 2011-07-01 10:34:58 <amiller> using chinese labor for example
1800 2011-07-01 10:35:02 <amiller> or a new alloy
1801 2011-07-01 10:35:06 <dsockwell> then your profit increases
1802 2011-07-01 10:35:07 <amiller> that doesn't make it only half as strong
1803 2011-07-01 10:35:10 <dsockwell> no
1804 2011-07-01 10:35:16 <amiller> or half as expensive to cut
1805 2011-07-01 10:35:23 <UukGoblin> amiller, roughly: 10 000 total network Ghash / 0.6 Ghash output from a single 5970 * 0.3 kW (roughly the consumption of a single 5970) * 24 hours = 120 MWh
1806 2011-07-01 10:35:46 <UukGoblin> !reroll
1807 2011-07-01 10:35:47 <epscy> amiller: all this depends greatly on whether you believe using energy is bad, whether you are an ardent environmentalist and whether you believe that renewable energy can provide for 100% of our enegry needs
1808 2011-07-01 10:35:50 <dsockwell> it means you can make twice as much money from the same volume of sales
1809 2011-07-01 10:35:53 <UukGoblin> amiller, at $0.16 per kWh that gives $19 200 per day
1810 2011-07-01 10:36:11 <amiller> i was going with 6 cents per kilowatt hour
1811 2011-07-01 10:36:15 <UukGoblin> ignore that !reroll ;-]
1812 2011-07-01 10:36:23 <dobalina> do you need the official bitcoin client running in order for a miner to work?
1813 2011-07-01 10:36:27 <dsockwell> epscy: i don't think using energy is wrong, but wasting it is
1814 2011-07-01 10:36:37 <mtrlt> dobalina: yes if you solo mine, no if you're in a pool.
1815 2011-07-01 10:36:42 <amiller> dsockwell, it's not the use of energy, it's the COST!
1816 2011-07-01 10:36:53 <mtrlt> dobalina: of course you need an address where you'll be paid, so you'll have to have run the client at least once :P
1817 2011-07-01 10:37:01 <mtrlt> have to run*
1818 2011-07-01 10:37:02 <dsockwell> amiller: hey, your personal economics aren't my problem
1819 2011-07-01 10:37:03 <amiller> if energy were more expensive (for example because of a change in environmental sentiment) then you'd get the same STRENGTH for less energy, at the same COST
1820 2011-07-01 10:37:04 <dobalina> and you can use the same bitcoin address on different machines?
1821 2011-07-01 10:37:09 <dobalina> that's the idea i take it
1822 2011-07-01 10:37:20 <mtrlt> dobalina: you can't use the same wallet on different machines. it's a flaw.
1823 2011-07-01 10:37:22 <amiller> strenght of bitcoin === cost of mining bitcoin
1824 2011-07-01 10:37:24 <mtrlt> a wallet contains many addresses
1825 2011-07-01 10:37:29 <UukGoblin> amiller, that's a good price for kwh, where can you get it? ;-]
1826 2011-07-01 10:37:39 <dobalina> or is it better to have a different address for each machine?
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1828 2011-07-01 10:37:55 <mtrlt> you can of course mine to the same address from many machines
1829 2011-07-01 10:37:57 <mtrlt> i'm not sure which you asked :p
1830 2011-07-01 10:38:24 <dobalina> no i'm saying is it better to have multiple addresses....
1831 2011-07-01 10:38:30 <amiller> UukGoblin, obviously from outdated data, but here's something showing 9.9 cents in state of New York, in 2011 http://www.nyserda.org/Energy_Information/nyepq.asp
1832 2011-07-01 10:38:53 <mtrlt> dobalina: it's not better or worse
1833 2011-07-01 10:39:05 <mtrlt> dobalina: each wallet can have many addresses.
1834 2011-07-01 10:39:18 <amiller> UukGoblin, here's one showing industrial ratse in missouri dipping below 5 cents http://www.dnr.mo.gov/energy/utilities/ffuel-bar-price.gif
1835 2011-07-01 10:39:26 <UukGoblin> amiller, nice
1836 2011-07-01 10:39:37 <dobalina> for security reasons though it might be better to have a different address for each machine tho... so there is not one point of failure?
1837 2011-07-01 10:39:39 <UukGoblin> amiller, europe's more expensive
1838 2011-07-01 10:39:49 <mtrlt> dobalina: don't confuse address and wallet
1839 2011-07-01 10:39:49 <amiller> UukGoblin, i'm assuming this is close what the NSA would be paying to hax0r bitcoins
1840 2011-07-01 10:39:52 <Shuro> is here someone who works at mtgox or an other market? :-) how do you solve the transaction-fees for your user
1841 2011-07-01 10:39:58 <mtrlt> dobalina: a wallet is the wallet.dat file which has many addresses.
1842 2011-07-01 10:40:42 <dobalina> is it not possible to have the wallet on one centralized machine and have the miners send to that?
1843 2011-07-01 10:40:45 <mtrlt> dobalina: and you can't use the same wallet.dat on many computers. or you can but the software generates new random addresses to the wallet and they're gonna be different on each machine :p
1844 2011-07-01 10:40:50 <dobalina> you must have a wallet on each machine?
1845 2011-07-01 10:40:55 <mtrlt> dobalina: it is possible as i already said
1846 2011-07-01 10:40:58 <epscy> amiller: if anything i can see bitcoin driving power innovation, a miners profit is influenced by how cheap they can get the power
1847 2011-07-01 10:41:05 <amiller> dsockwell, the cost-time and only the cost-time of mining bitcoin is what's relevant, computer energy is just the only way you can link cost to time, in the current world
1848 2011-07-01 10:41:07 <mtrlt> 13:36 < mtrlt> you can of course mine to the same address from many machines
1849 2011-07-01 10:41:18 <mtrlt> or same wallet
1850 2011-07-01 10:41:27 <mtrlt> if you're solo mining, the client creates a new address for each block you find.
1851 2011-07-01 10:41:56 <amiller> dsockwell, we'll probably need a proof of work in the future that is memory bound rather than cpu bound anyway
1852 2011-07-01 10:42:02 <Shuro> if i have two wallets on to machines, i cannot move btc between them without fee, or?
1853 2011-07-01 10:42:34 <amiller> dsockwell, here's a nice paper on a memory bound hash function that could trivially replace the sha-512 we use now http://www.tarsnap.com/scrypt/scrypt.pdf
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1857 2011-07-01 10:43:29 <amiller> epscy, i think your'e right, it's a really interesting point though - is it a coincidence?
1858 2011-07-01 10:43:56 <amiller> epscy, is it a coincidence that the same power that miners need to pay out the ass for is the same power that the whole world needs more of than it can afford?
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1860 2011-07-01 10:46:57 <epscy> amiller: power has never been free or too cheap to meter, this is a problem that needs solving regardless of bitcoin#
1861 2011-07-01 10:47:52 <dsockwell> THORIUM!  ANARCHOSYNDICALISM!  RON PAUL!
1862 2011-07-01 10:48:20 <Shuro> someone who works for an market? :-) how do you solve the transaction-fees for your user?
1863 2011-07-01 10:48:46 <amiller> Shuro, you can trade btc between machines with no fees
1864 2011-07-01 10:49:00 <amiller> Shuro, have a look here: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1865 2011-07-01 10:49:21 <amiller> Shuro, here you can see transactions posted to the network, BEFORE they're written down (inscribed into history forever) in the block chain
1866 2011-07-01 10:49:47 <amiller> notice that some have a fee attached, most do not, they're all sorted by priority
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1868 2011-07-01 10:50:27 <amiller> Shuro, every ten minutes or so, a block is found and most of those transactions in the queue are committed to a block, as you can see occur here: http://blockexplorer.com/
1869 2011-07-01 10:52:20 <Shuro> amiller: okay, but my client adds a fee automaticy (testnet)
1870 2011-07-01 10:53:08 <amiller> Shuro, is your client other than https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1871 2011-07-01 10:54:30 <Shuro> amiller: no, the original-client from bitcoin.org, in client it warns that he add a fee, in headless-variant it adds the fee without asking
1872 2011-07-01 10:55:48 <amiller> in headless mode you can set it per transaction as an argument
1873 2011-07-01 10:56:09 <amiller> bitcoin -paytxfee=0 sendtoaddress <otheraddress> 10000000
1874 2011-07-01 10:57:05 <Shuro> amiller: it is a fee from 0.0005 btc, no tragical amount, but i must calculate with it.   but with no fee is there a chance that no one accepts the transaction?
1875 2011-07-01 10:57:39 <Shuro> bitcoin -paytxfee=0 sendtoaddress <otheraddress> 10000000 is eventually a solution, but not possible with rpc, or?
1876 2011-07-01 10:58:08 <amiller> Shuro, you get assigned a priority, that priority may be low without a fee, some miners may discriminate by priority while most (i think) do not
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1879 2011-07-01 10:59:16 <amiller> if you're providing service to others its a good idea to keep track of how long it's taking to go through, how congested it is
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1882 2011-07-01 10:59:31 <amiller> as for the rpc, i don't know off hand but let me see if it's easy to check
1883 2011-07-01 11:00:25 <amiller> the github i linked is the one on bitcoin.org, if you downloaded a binary though i don't know which one or how old it is
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1887 2011-07-01 11:03:51 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone know how to disable pass checking in pushpool?
1888 2011-07-01 11:03:55 <SomeoneWeird> i thought changing
1889 2011-07-01 11:03:55 <SomeoneWeird>  if (!pass_db || (strcmp(pass, pass_db) && *pass_db != '\0'))
1890 2011-07-01 11:03:57 <SomeoneWeird> to
1891 2011-07-01 11:04:05 <SomeoneWeird>  if (pass_db || (strcmp(pass, pass) && *pass_db == '\0'))
1892 2011-07-01 11:04:06 <SomeoneWeird> would work
1893 2011-07-01 11:04:14 <SomeoneWeird> but i just get an rpc error
1894 2011-07-01 11:04:40 <mtrlt> why did you change !pass_db to pass_db
1895 2011-07-01 11:04:56 <mtrlt> just put if(true) or something?
1896 2011-07-01 11:05:01 <mtrlt> i.e. get rid of the if
1897 2011-07-01 11:05:11 <amiller> Shuro, try settxfee, here's the line of code in the source where you can start tracing what it does https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc.cpp#L1467 i hope that helps
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1900 2011-07-01 11:12:42 <SomeoneWeird> mtrlt; just tried, still getting an rpc error :\
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1906 2011-07-01 11:24:29 <dobalina> what does KHPS stand for?
1907 2011-07-01 11:24:50 <BlueMatt> kilo-hash-per-second
1908 2011-07-01 11:24:58 <dobalina> figured
1909 2011-07-01 11:25:33 <dobalina> it's invented for bitcoin?
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1911 2011-07-01 11:26:18 <BlueMatt> its a measurement of speed, its not invented for anything
1912 2011-07-01 11:26:28 <BlueMatt> its just how many 1000 hashes you can calculate per second
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1914 2011-07-01 11:26:39 <BlueMatt> though in bitcoin its slightly different as its not a full sha256 hash
1915 2011-07-01 11:26:51 <dobalina> gotcha
1916 2011-07-01 11:27:44 <SomeoneWeird> anyone got a solution to my problem?
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1918 2011-07-01 11:28:09 <dobalina> the deal with the minin calculations though... basically from what i'm reading on the offiical wiki etc. unless you have your own botnet or a supercomputer or shit load of dedicated servers you won't make jack shit from solo mining corect?  you need to get involved in teh so called pooled mining?
1919 2011-07-01 11:28:28 <BlueMatt> yea
1920 2011-07-01 11:29:16 Grouver has joined
1921 2011-07-01 11:29:22 <Grouver> Hello everybody.
1922 2011-07-01 11:29:35 <dobalina> and anyone can setup a pooled mining group?  i mean how does that work?  everyone in it is just at the mercy of the person who controls it?  you just need to hope he's a trustworthy individual who won't lie about the coins generated or their value etc?
1923 2011-07-01 11:29:51 <neofutur> dobalina: with 12 cpu i make more or 0.7 btc/month
1924 2011-07-01 11:30:07 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1925 2011-07-01 11:30:10 <BlueMatt> dobalina: yea pretty much
1926 2011-07-01 11:30:12 <lfm> dobalina: supercomputers in gener are useless for bitcoin mining.
1927 2011-07-01 11:30:14 <neofutur> ( i dont pay the electricity )
1928 2011-07-01 11:30:19 <lfm> general
1929 2011-07-01 11:30:20 dvide has joined
1930 2011-07-01 11:30:22 <dobalina> and that he'll actually pay the dividends out so to speak... but there's nothing legally or techincal forcing him to do so?
1931 2011-07-01 11:30:30 <dobalina> hmm
1932 2011-07-01 11:31:11 <dobalina> so it's like an ebay type think where if the guy or gal runign the mining group has good feedback people join that group if not well you run the risk of making him bitcoins and not getting any of the share?
1933 2011-07-01 11:31:31 <BlueMatt> yep
1934 2011-07-01 11:31:33 <dobalina> lfm why would super computers be useless for mining?
1935 2011-07-01 11:32:49 <lfm> dobalina: they use more power than they make. most supercomuters do not have GPU and if they have GPU they are the wrong kind f0r bitcoin
1936 2011-07-01 11:32:50 <dobalina> so the mining group basically all points to one individuals bitcoin address but there's no way to tell when a coin's been generated unless the individual shares taht information with you?  do the people who run those groups usally take over head (fees) so to speak? like a bank lol :P
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1939 2011-07-01 11:33:16 <SomeoneWeird> yes they do dobalina
1940 2011-07-01 11:33:53 <dobalina> is there a central list on the bitcoin site of the mining groups? like how many members etc.... ?
1941 2011-07-01 11:34:09 larsivi has joined
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1943 2011-07-01 11:34:20 <neofutur> yes
1944 2011-07-01 11:34:29 <lfm> dobalina: they dont all make the number of members public
1945 2011-07-01 11:34:31 <neofutur> ther'es a comparison of the pools
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1947 2011-07-01 11:38:50 <denisx> dobalina: you can see all hashes which get accepted by the pool, just compare it with the actual target. right now it must be smaller than ca. 0x00000c3f
1948 2011-07-01 11:39:23 <dobalina> anyone have a link to this "list" ?
1949 2011-07-01 11:39:37 <neofutur> dobalina: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools
1950 2011-07-01 11:39:42 <dobalina> thanks!
1951 2011-07-01 11:39:54 <neofutur> i was searching it
1952 2011-07-01 11:40:08 <neofutur> I recommend deepbit and btcguild
1953 2011-07-01 11:40:20 <neofutur> eligius have only problems for weeks
1954 2011-07-01 11:40:23 <mtrlt> i recommend eligius as pool hoppers don't benefit from it
1955 2011-07-01 11:40:23 <xelister> 0.01 BTC fee if sending any transaction less than 0.01 BTC.
1956 2011-07-01 11:40:25 <lfm> denisx: that wont really tell you if the pool admin is honest
1957 2011-07-01 11:40:28 <xelister> someone update the wiki?
1958 2011-07-01 11:40:40 <xelister> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees  is inaccurate?
1959 2011-07-01 11:40:46 <denisx> lfm: sure
1960 2011-07-01 11:40:48 <neofutur> mtrlt: and servers always down, mysql down . . .
1961 2011-07-01 11:40:57 <denisx> lfm: I mean, true
1962 2011-07-01 11:41:02 <mtrlt> neofutur: has worked fine for a while now
1963 2011-07-01 11:41:14 <mtrlt> personally i don't care about the stats, as long as i'm getting paid :P
1964 2011-07-01 11:41:16 <neofutur> MrSam: I used eligius for weeks, and finally dropped it
1965 2011-07-01 11:41:41 micha__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1966 2011-07-01 11:41:45 <mtrlt> i just don't like proportional pools since they enable pool hopping
1967 2011-07-01 11:41:46 <denisx> I started my pool 48h ago, still small though
1968 2011-07-01 11:41:49 <mtrlt> and non-poolhoppers suffer from that
1969 2011-07-01 11:41:49 <denisx> www.btcmp.com
1970 2011-07-01 11:41:52 <neofutur> Ialso had 7x more rejected works on eligius than on deepbit
1971 2011-07-01 11:42:01 <dobalina> does anybody in this channel like an official dev or something run a pool?
1972 2011-07-01 11:42:04 <neofutur> the mining proxy is greqt to see the difference
1973 2011-07-01 11:42:24 <mtrlt> the mining proxy itself gives me 75% invalid :P
1974 2011-07-01 11:42:26 <lfm> neofutur: are you using long poll?
1975 2011-07-01 11:42:35 <denisx> neofutur: you should also compare how long it takes until you get the LP call
1976 2011-07-01 11:42:37 <neofutur> https://github.com/cdhowie/Bitcoin-mining-proxy
1977 2011-07-01 11:42:50 <neofutur> yes long poll, and only cpu miners
1978 2011-07-01 11:43:12 <dobalina> presumably you can combine cpu and gpu miners in one pool it doesn't make a difference right?
1979 2011-07-01 11:43:15 <lfm> you get free power?
1980 2011-07-01 11:43:28 <neofutur> yes
1981 2011-07-01 11:43:34 <lfm> drool
1982 2011-07-01 11:43:44 <neofutur> using cpus on dedicated servers when they are idle
1983 2011-07-01 11:43:52 <mtrlt> but cpus are very slow
1984 2011-07-01 11:44:01 <mtrlt> you gotta calculate whether it is worth the trouble to setup a miner :P
1985 2011-07-01 11:44:24 <neofutur> pretty easy with minerd
1986 2011-07-01 11:44:38 <neofutur> problem only with multilib 64 bits
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1988 2011-07-01 11:45:40 <neofutur> jgarzik: https://github.com/cdhowie/Bitcoin-mining-proxy
1989 2011-07-01 11:45:42 <BlueMatt> ah, why is there a different bot on -market?
1990 2011-07-01 11:45:44 <neofutur> oups
1991 2011-07-01 11:45:53 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
1992 2011-07-01 11:45:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134199 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 872 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 6 hours, 40 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1566533.23724647
1993 2011-07-01 11:45:55 <neofutur> jgarzik: https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer/issues/37
1994 2011-07-01 11:46:38 <neofutur> mtrlt: apart this bug its very simple/fast to setup the miner
1995 2011-07-01 11:47:20 <mtrlt> mm yea
1996 2011-07-01 11:47:35 <neofutur> like 5 mins/server
1997 2011-07-01 11:47:40 <denisx> I have now luke patch to avoid duplicates. but there is a duplicate again in my shares table. is this cheating or is there still a bug?
1998 2011-07-01 11:47:44 <mtrlt> should be just "copy files and run" tho :P
1999 2011-07-01 11:48:26 <neofutur> nop, i d never put a binary on a server
2000 2011-07-01 11:48:38 <neofutur> using gentoo and compiling everything
2001 2011-07-01 11:49:07 <neofutur> to me, a binary is a security problem if I did not built it myself from sources I read
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2003 2011-07-01 11:49:30 <mtrlt> lol
2004 2011-07-01 11:49:32 <mtrlt> w/e
2005 2011-07-01 11:49:43 <mtrlt> i mean, you could just compile it once
2006 2011-07-01 11:50:29 again has joined
2007 2011-07-01 11:50:51 <mtrlt> and then you can copy the binary around
2008 2011-07-01 11:51:37 <lfm> bitcoin kinda needs source for trust
2009 2011-07-01 11:52:07 <mtrlt> were talking about a miner.
2010 2011-07-01 11:52:14 <lfm> miners too
2011 2011-07-01 11:52:26 <mtrlt> well yea but you don't have to compile it again every time you setup a new rig
2012 2011-07-01 11:52:47 <lfm> if the rigs are all the same, then ya ok
2013 2011-07-01 11:55:39 <xelister> it is completly fine to swap in/out wallet files (if node is not running)?
2014 2011-07-01 11:57:27 <lfm> It is supposed to be now ya but I spoze it could still stumble over bugs
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2018 2011-07-01 11:58:06 <xelister> lfm: well it would suck a gigantic cock if wallet with say 1000 btc would "stumble upon bugs"
2019 2011-07-01 11:58:16 <dobalina> so the wallets are still not encrypted in teh current ver right?
2020 2011-07-01 11:58:44 <lfm> xelister: yup, keep backups
2021 2011-07-01 11:58:59 <mtrlt> dobalina: true
2022 2011-07-01 11:59:08 <mtrlt> dobalina: it's something that needs to change :)
2023 2011-07-01 11:59:14 <xelister> dobalina: yea, use encrypter system, partition or directory, like a man
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2025 2011-07-01 12:00:46 <neofutur> mtrlt: yes, but compiling it is nearly as fast as distributing a binary
2026 2011-07-01 12:01:13 <lfm> nearly as slow too
2027 2011-07-01 12:01:16 <mtrlt> mmyea
2028 2011-07-01 12:01:34 <mtrlt> and you can automatize compiling too of course so it's not a problem :P
2029 2011-07-01 12:01:37 <neofutur> and optimisations can make a little difference, not all servers have exactly the same cpu or libs
2030 2011-07-01 12:02:05 <lfm> ya use --march=native
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2053 2011-07-01 12:41:25 <Shuro> hi, with my test-wallet i tried to create a large ammount of addresses via a for-loop, but after a random amount of rpc-requests seems that the script crashes with "Unable to connect to...." and bitcoind didnt react
2054 2011-07-01 12:42:27 <SomeoneWeird> you start with -server?
2055 2011-07-01 12:42:40 <SomeoneWeird> ./bitcoind -server -daemon
2056 2011-07-01 12:43:47 <Shuro> only bitcoind -daemon
2057 2011-07-01 12:44:29 <Shuro> i didnt see a -server parameter
2058 2011-07-01 12:46:43 <Shuro> but with -server is the same problem, i need to kill the bitcoind and on the next try it kills on another "getaddress"
2059 2011-07-01 12:49:01 <Shuro> everytime the same error, nothing in debug.log     only my php says : PHP Warning:  fopen(http://...@127.0.0.1:8332/): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed!
2060 2011-07-01 12:49:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that is probably the most random email to respond to in that thread
2061 2011-07-01 12:50:31 <SomeoneWeird> Shuro; i doubt you'd have to pass your credentials like that,
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2063 2011-07-01 12:52:56 <neofutur> Shuro: allow url fopen ?
2064 2011-07-01 12:53:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm?
2065 2011-07-01 12:53:24 <BlueMatt> oh sorry that was jrmithdobbs
2066 2011-07-01 12:53:24 karnac has joined
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2068 2011-07-01 12:53:59 <gmaxwell> yea.
2069 2011-07-01 12:54:26 nefario has joined
2070 2011-07-01 12:54:26 <Shuro> neofutur: :-) before the error, there where successful requests
2071 2011-07-01 12:54:38 <Shuro> is there a limit of adresses or accounts in the wallet?
2072 2011-07-01 12:54:47 <BlueMatt> no
2073 2011-07-01 12:55:52 <Shuro> but it takes longer for every adress, or?
2074 2011-07-01 12:56:02 <BlueMatt> no
2075 2011-07-01 12:56:21 <Shuro> mhh....
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2080 2011-07-01 12:59:42 <Shuro> can someone who uses php test this to?  here is my used rpc-for-loop http://pastebin.com/AFeQT301
2081 2011-07-01 13:04:09 <upb> so the rpc server must deadlock or crash or smth
2082 2011-07-01 13:04:27 <Shuro> yes
2083 2011-07-01 13:05:00 <Shuro> there is no way to hotfix that or a workaround?
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2088 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r38028de / lib/blockchainmanager.js :
2089 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Block chain download improvements.
2090 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Improved timeout handling.
2091 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Better queue handling.
2092 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Better debug messages. - http://bit.ly/lrHaCN
2093 2011-07-01 13:08:27 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2094 2011-07-01 13:08:27 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r476787f / (lib/blockchainmanager.js examples/localonlyp.js): Added localonly example with profiling. - http://bit.ly/kjgEqd
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2099 2011-07-01 13:15:39 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
2100 2011-07-01 13:18:26 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  got CocoaBitcoin running on latest core code...
2101 2011-07-01 13:18:40 <b4epoche_> git commit -a; git push -f  ?
2102 2011-07-01 13:19:06 <BlueMatt> first git branch, see what branch you are on to make sure you arent overwriting your 0.3.branch (unless you want to)
2103 2011-07-01 13:19:16 <BlueMatt> the branch you are on shows up with a star next to it
2104 2011-07-01 13:19:25 TheAncientGoat has joined
2105 2011-07-01 13:19:26 <b4epoche_>   0.3
2106 2011-07-01 13:19:26 <b4epoche_> * master
2107 2011-07-01 13:19:27 <b4epoche_> oh
2108 2011-07-01 13:19:38 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r5cd49a1 / ecdsa.js : Removed debug statements. - http://bit.ly/miNkcF
2109 2011-07-01 13:19:40 <BlueMatt> so yea, git commit -a; git push -f
2110 2011-07-01 13:19:44 <b4epoche_> okay
2111 2011-07-01 13:19:59 xtalmath has joined
2112 2011-07-01 13:20:34 <b4epoche_> okay, done
2113 2011-07-01 13:20:57 K_F has joined
2114 2011-07-01 13:22:24 <b4epoche_> what's the difference between 'origin' and 'upstream'?
2115 2011-07-01 13:22:42 <BlueMatt> upstream is the official bitcoin repo, ie the one you cant push to, origin is your fork
2116 2011-07-01 13:23:04 <b4epoche_> gotcha
2117 2011-07-01 13:23:07 <BlueMatt> well origin is typically what repo you specified when you git clone'd, but iirc you removed origin and readded yours
2118 2011-07-01 13:24:22 <b4epoche_> http://snapplr.com/t28s
2119 2011-07-01 13:24:35 <b4epoche_> just trying to figure out how Xcode interacts with github
2120 2011-07-01 13:24:48 <BlueMatt> oh nice
2121 2011-07-01 13:25:08 * BlueMatt codes in gedit and termain so something like that just looks like magic ;)
2122 2011-07-01 13:25:19 <BlueMatt> s/termain/terminal
2123 2011-07-01 13:25:39 <b4epoche_> yea, it's pretty nice actually:  http://snapplr.com/bvwb
2124 2011-07-01 13:26:09 <BlueMatt> oh, thats cool
2125 2011-07-01 13:26:40 <BlueMatt> yea netbeans/etclipse/etc will do that too, Im just too lazy to actually set up a full dev environment
2126 2011-07-01 13:26:48 <b4epoche_> I used to code that way...  but was never so entrenched that I couldn't/wouldn't move to an IDE
2127 2011-07-01 13:27:17 <BlueMatt> neither am I, but Im just too lazy to set one up
2128 2011-07-01 13:27:30 <BlueMatt> all I care about is that I can compile, run and commit
2129 2011-07-01 13:28:08 <b4epoche_> I've messed with eclipse for php development...
2130 2011-07-01 13:28:36 <b4epoche_> what I think is needed is something in the middle, a IDE lite.
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2132 2011-07-01 13:28:46 <BlueMatt> I do have to give credit to apple (well, in reality, NextStep), their dev tools are really quite nice
2133 2011-07-01 13:29:05 <b4epoche_> IDE always seem so bloated (and basically are) when coming from emacs/vi/etc
2134 2011-07-01 13:29:17 <BlueMatt> so true
2135 2011-07-01 13:29:29 <ius> Awesome WM gets me gedit/vim and a console next to eachother. All I need
2136 2011-07-01 13:30:07 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
2137 2011-07-01 13:30:48 * b4epoche_ likes TWM ;-)
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2139 2011-07-01 13:31:36 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
2140 2011-07-01 13:31:51 <b4epoche_> funny thing is, emacs is probably just as bloated, just doesn't look like it
2141 2011-07-01 13:32:06 <b4epoche_> but I never got the hang of emacs
2142 2011-07-01 13:32:47 <justmoon> emacs depends on the user - using emacs is essentially one tiny step short of creating your own editor :)
2143 2011-07-01 13:32:51 <BlueMatt> meh, nano ftw, not nearly as fullfeatured as anything else, but it works just fine
2144 2011-07-01 13:33:08 * b4epoche_ used to use pine for email
2145 2011-07-01 13:33:27 <b4epoche_> and I think nano is an offshoot of that...
2146 2011-07-01 13:33:42 <b4epoche_> or is that pico
2147 2011-07-01 13:34:09 <BlueMatt> on my system they both run "GNU nano"
2148 2011-07-01 13:34:23 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2149 2011-07-01 13:34:28 <b4epoche_> justmoon:  yea, I've seen people do amazing things in emacs
2150 2011-07-01 13:34:40 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2151 2011-07-01 13:34:45 <ElectRo`> emacs great OS, just need a better editor
2152 2011-07-01 13:34:50 <BlueMatt> ls -lha /usr/bin/pico
2153 2011-07-01 13:34:50 <BlueMatt> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 2010-10-12 16:30 /usr/bin/pico -> /etc/alternatives/pico
2154 2011-07-01 13:34:50 <BlueMatt> matt@Desktop666:~$ ls -lha /etc/alternatives/pico
2155 2011-07-01 13:34:50 <BlueMatt> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 2010-10-12 16:30 /etc/alternatives/pico -> /bin/nano
2156 2011-07-01 13:35:01 <justmoon> I use emacs - I'm happy when it does non-amazing things :)
2157 2011-07-01 13:35:53 copumpkin has joined
2158 2011-07-01 13:35:57 <Shuro> BlueMatt: i found anoter bug in your feefix, but i see you closed it
2159 2011-07-01 13:36:23 <justmoon> emacs is like... you invest so much time into setting it up just right so then when it finally kinda works you have such a strong cognitive dissonance trying to justify your time investment that you become an emacs advocate
2160 2011-07-01 13:36:31 <BlueMatt> Shuro: yea, Im probably gonna redo the last commit and reopen it then, but until then, no reason to leave it open
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2162 2011-07-01 13:39:14 <b4epoche_> justmoon:  yea, I think the same...  I just never put the effort into emacs
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2169 2011-07-01 13:50:03 <BlueMatt> denisx: ping
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2183 2011-07-01 14:01:01 <denisx> BlueMatt: pong
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2185 2011-07-01 14:01:48 <BlueMatt> denisx: would you consider putting the patch you wrote in git?
2186 2011-07-01 14:01:53 <BlueMatt> and split it up?
2187 2011-07-01 14:02:20 <denisx> BlueMatt: I did not wrote it
2188 2011-07-01 14:02:20 koleg has joined
2189 2011-07-01 14:02:28 <BlueMatt> who wrote it?
2190 2011-07-01 14:02:31 <BlueMatt> you posted it
2191 2011-07-01 14:02:32 <denisx> BlueMatt: I just scraped it out of the forum
2192 2011-07-01 14:02:38 koleg has quit (Client Quit)
2193 2011-07-01 14:02:43 <BlueMatt> link?
2194 2011-07-01 14:02:45 <denisx> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22585.40
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2198 2011-07-01 14:06:41 <yoR> Just a quick question, I can't validate it here, but is a bit-shift faster then amd_bitalign in opencl?
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2202 2011-07-01 14:08:38 <xelister> yoR: dunno. #opencl
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2204 2011-07-01 14:09:38 <yoR> kk
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2207 2011-07-01 14:11:10 <makomk> Hmmmmm. Someone must've written a program for recovering Bitcoin private keys off disks by now, surely?
2208 2011-07-01 14:11:50 <BlueMatt> whats your problem?
2209 2011-07-01 14:12:27 <BlueMatt> havent heard of one, but considering how much constant crap is in bitcoin's priv keys, it would be *very* easy to do
2210 2011-07-01 14:13:28 <denisx> BlueMatt: ok, give me some time and I will try to make a patch with this git thingy ;)
2211 2011-07-01 14:13:53 <BlueMatt> denisx: well, I was looking over that patch and it would appear most of the stuff would never get committed anyway...
2212 2011-07-01 14:14:01 <BlueMatt> except for 5
2213 2011-07-01 14:14:11 <BlueMatt> and maybe 2
2214 2011-07-01 14:14:14 <denisx> BlueMatt: I would only made one for number 2
2215 2011-07-01 14:14:25 <denisx> I can include 5
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2218 2011-07-01 14:14:45 <BlueMatt> well they would have to be separate commits, but how does one tell in this patch which one is which...
2219 2011-07-01 14:15:01 <denisx> then let me start with 2
2220 2011-07-01 14:15:05 <BlueMatt> 5 is in createthread obviously
2221 2011-07-01 14:15:09 <BlueMatt> but 2?
2222 2011-07-01 14:15:31 <denisx> gmaxwell said he has this running for some time
2223 2011-07-01 14:15:51 <BlueMatt> this patch?
2224 2011-07-01 14:15:53 <denisx> Iam running it since this morning and my duplicates are gone
2225 2011-07-01 14:15:56 <BlueMatt> are you sure about that?
2226 2011-07-01 14:16:00 <BlueMatt> oh that part
2227 2011-07-01 14:16:01 <denisx> only 2!
2228 2011-07-01 14:16:15 <denisx> actually I'm running 1 and 2
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2230 2011-07-01 14:16:31 <BlueMatt> where in the patch is 2?
2231 2011-07-01 14:16:34 <BlueMatt> which chunk(s)
2232 2011-07-01 14:16:57 <denisx> it is the change to IncrementExtraNonce()
2233 2011-07-01 14:17:13 <BlueMatt> oh, duh
2234 2011-07-01 14:18:04 Akinava has joined
2235 2011-07-01 14:18:04 <makomk> BlueMatt: I don't have a problem, but an awful lot of forum users do seem to need a recovery tool.
2236 2011-07-01 14:18:34 glassresistor has joined
2237 2011-07-01 14:19:17 <BlueMatt> I wrote up the useful way to do it a while back: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11331.msg160582#msg160582
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2240 2011-07-01 14:26:19 <gmaxwell> denisx: yes, I'm running an earlier but essentially equal version of luke's extranonce patch.
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2244 2011-07-01 14:31:23 <makomk> Also,  if I create a new empty BDB file and just add the key entries mapping public keys to private keys, will that be enough for the Bitcoin client to recover the wallet fully then?
2245 2011-07-01 14:32:06 <BlueMatt> yep
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2253 2011-07-01 14:37:52 <afed> hey Maged
2254 2011-07-01 14:37:54 <afed> hey MagicalTux
2255 2011-07-01 14:38:08 <gmaxwell> doublec: .nz dnsseed? Is there anything I can do to help?
2256 2011-07-01 14:39:56 <BlueMatt> oh anyone who is gonna use my code to run a dnsseed: I highly recommend you put the database on a tmpfs and just run a script to copy it onto the drive every x minutes, it runs a ton faster that way, no more iowait
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2258 2011-07-01 14:43:53 <denisx> BlueMatt: https://github.com/denis2342/bitcoin/commit/1dbd1ff0e5fdce60885b7e39298fa63b50e8ce0f
2259 2011-07-01 14:44:06 <denisx> BlueMatt: is this correct, I never used github before
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2261 2011-07-01 14:47:48 <BlueMatt> denisx: gmaxwell does luke already have it in a branch on his git also, denisx you need to git commit -a --autor="Luke ..." according to what luke puts in his commits
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2263 2011-07-01 14:51:24 <MrSam> :)
2264 2011-07-01 14:52:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yup
2265 2011-07-01 14:52:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: https://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/commits/getwork_dedupe
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2271 2011-07-01 14:57:50 <afed> where's mtgox
2272 2011-07-01 14:57:53 <afed> i want to berate him
2273 2011-07-01 14:58:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so would you ack the first and last commit there (as the 3rd overwrites the second anyway)
2274 2011-07-01 14:58:13 sanchaz has joined
2275 2011-07-01 14:58:18 <BlueMatt> afed: MagicalTux bought it a long time ago
2276 2011-07-01 14:58:23 sanchaz has quit (2!sanchaz@99.198.122.71|Client Quit)
2277 2011-07-01 14:58:40 <MagicalTux> berate ?
2278 2011-07-01 14:58:41 sanchaz has joined
2279 2011-07-01 14:59:32 * b4epoche_ anxiously awaits the berating
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2284 2011-07-01 15:00:32 <b4epoche_> actually, MagicalTux, what are you suggestions for polling your feeds?
2285 2011-07-01 15:00:58 <b4epoche_> like intervals that are fast enough but not overly burdensome
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2290 2011-07-01 15:03:32 again is now known as tower
2291 2011-07-01 15:03:45 <MrSam> hmm
2292 2011-07-01 15:03:52 <MrSam> the last eclipse really floats my boat
2293 2011-07-01 15:04:09 <b4epoche_> eclipse = java = sux
2294 2011-07-01 15:04:25 <BlueMatt> dont let diablo hear you
2295 2011-07-01 15:04:28 <upb> i dont understand why he caches trades for a minute, how pricey is updating some cache in memory on every trade or even every 1 sec or something
2296 2011-07-01 15:04:39 dbasch has joined
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2298 2011-07-01 15:05:36 <b4epoche_> well, I should clarify, eclipse = java ui = sux...  I know nothing about the languate
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2303 2011-07-01 15:09:20 <justmoon> hitting pause/go/pause/go/pause/go in v8's debugger => ghetto cpu profiling
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2308 2011-07-01 15:15:14 <b4epoche_> is it slow enough that you can actually pause after some reasonable amount of execution?
2309 2011-07-01 15:15:25 <jrmithdobbs> upb: from what i can tell the ui kicks off an external shitty (php) process if not already running instead of writing a proper trade matching daemon that gets signaled some how when a new trade gets added
2310 2011-07-01 15:16:33 <upb> lol i seriously doubt that
2311 2011-07-01 15:16:46 <jrmithdobbs> no really
2312 2011-07-01 15:16:48 <upb> haha
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2314 2011-07-01 15:17:28 <upb> i think he doesnt push the trades into the cache
2315 2011-07-01 15:17:35 <upb> but insteal pulls from db every minute :D
2316 2011-07-01 15:17:56 <jrmithdobbs> from what he's said about it publically in #mtgox and the 1 minute delay that was there for a while (maximum cron granuality) that's how i bet it works, and pulls it from the db once executed
2317 2011-07-01 15:17:57 <b4epoche_> that's what I'd do...  but then again, I'd store passwords in plain text
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2320 2011-07-01 15:19:03 <jrmithdobbs> granularity*
2321 2011-07-01 15:20:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: any reason not to pull Limit size of response to getblocks (369) ?
2322 2011-07-01 15:22:36 <b4epoche_> but I wouldn't at all be surprised if this is how it works (seems fine for low volume trading) and I'm sure it's on the todo list to fix/improve
2323 2011-07-01 15:25:06 <makomk> "17.1% done, 18 recovered, 0 failed/bogus" - hmmmm, that's looking somewhat promising. Hope I never have to use it for real, though.
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2328 2011-07-01 15:37:26 <BlueMatt> are you scanning the entire disk for the constant parts of bitcoin privkeys?
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2330 2011-07-01 15:39:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen blockheaders * r81863e9 / (236 files in 37 dirs): Merge/port to current tip (+333 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/iMuFre
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2332 2011-07-01 15:40:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: oooo working on blockheaders are we?
2333 2011-07-01 15:40:48 <gavinandresen> yup
2334 2011-07-01 15:40:54 <BlueMatt> or are you doing full thin client with no block storage?
2335 2011-07-01 15:40:58 <gavinandresen> nope
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2337 2011-07-01 15:41:10 <BlueMatt> oh well just as good
2338 2011-07-01 15:41:41 <gavinandresen> It'll make the "Out of the box experience" for newbies much more pleasant if only blockheaders are downloaded....
2339 2011-07-01 15:41:54 <BlueMatt> very, very much so
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2341 2011-07-01 15:45:05 <mtrlt> yeah, that's a very good idea indeed :)
2342 2011-07-01 15:49:06 <b4epoche_> CocoaBitcoin b2 based on latest core code is at:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1041468/CocoaBitcoin.app.zip
2343 2011-07-01 15:49:36 <pusle> CocoaBitcoin?
2344 2011-07-01 15:49:49 <b4epoche_> OSX-native UI
2345 2011-07-01 15:50:00 <pusle> mkay
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2347 2011-07-01 15:52:18 flok has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2348 2011-07-01 15:52:53 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r0388a31 / lib/blockchain.js : Fix transaction saving to database. - http://bit.ly/jLmQdJ
2349 2011-07-01 15:52:53 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r8d8faf6 / lib/blockchain.js : Fix block chain queue counting. - http://bit.ly/k98UhF
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2354 2011-07-01 15:59:03 <Ramen> ;;bc,status
2355 2011-07-01 15:59:06 <gribble> Error: "bc,status" is not a valid command.
2356 2011-07-01 15:59:12 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
2357 2011-07-01 15:59:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134233 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 838 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 0 hours, 20 minutes, and 46 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1573341.15198589
2358 2011-07-01 15:59:54 <Ramen> hmm looks like difficulty is capping out
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2362 2011-07-01 16:00:58 <makomk> BlueMatt: I'm actually scanning the disk for a sequence that precedes public keys in wallet.dat, then looking for a matching private key nearby, but more or less.
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2364 2011-07-01 16:01:37 <BlueMatt> makomk: so why not just search directly for private keys?
2365 2011-07-01 16:01:42 <BlueMatt> better results that way
2366 2011-07-01 16:02:05 <BlueMatt> find the private keys->calculate public keys from those private keys->recreate db
2367 2011-07-01 16:02:47 <gavinandresen> how fast is the private->public calculation?  I thought it was on the order of 1/10'th of a second or something....
2368 2011-07-01 16:02:58 <BlueMatt> something like that
2369 2011-07-01 16:03:04 <BlueMatt> sounds about right, why?
2370 2011-07-01 16:03:12 <makomk> BlueMatt: haven't figured out a reliable way to identify private keys yet.
2371 2011-07-01 16:03:45 <gavinandresen> unencrypted private keys are DER-encoded on disk? (or am I misremembering)
2372 2011-07-01 16:03:51 <BlueMatt> makomk: of the 271? bytes stored in private keys only 32 are the private key, and the first like 15 bytes plus way more later on are constant
2373 2011-07-01 16:04:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: on disk? no they are just serialized according to how openssl gives us the private keys
2374 2011-07-01 16:04:37 <makomk> Are you sure that bitcoin doesn't just store the raw 32 bytes of private key these days?
2375 2011-07-01 16:04:41 <gavinandresen> yeah, but openssl uses some standard encoding....
2376 2011-07-01 16:04:50 <BlueMatt> its not der
2377 2011-07-01 16:05:15 <BlueMatt> isnt der the stuff one uses for private keys with all the -----BEGIN PRIVATE KEY----- stuff
2378 2011-07-01 16:05:18 <BlueMatt> or is that pem
2379 2011-07-01 16:05:31 <gavinandresen> DER PEM ASAP LOL.... I dunno
2380 2011-07-01 16:06:13 <makomk> Ah, actually that explains a lot. Heh. The trouble is, this requires delving into the depths of OpenSSL...
2381 2011-07-01 16:06:25 <BlueMatt> nope, sipa did that for you ;)
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2383 2011-07-01 16:06:45 <BlueMatt> checkout getsecret and setsecret in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/352/files#diff-6
2384 2011-07-01 16:07:00 <BlueMatt> oh wait...hm nope
2385 2011-07-01 16:07:23 <BlueMatt> well you dont have to delve into openssl for that anyway, just dump private keys  from bitcoin and see what is constant
2386 2011-07-01 16:08:39 <upb> PEM is base64 encoded DER with header + footer
2387 2011-07-01 16:08:53 <BlueMatt> ah
2388 2011-07-01 16:08:56 <BlueMatt> well then maybe it is der
2389 2011-07-01 16:09:20 <upb> you can test it with openssl asn1dump )
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2391 2011-07-01 16:10:29 <Eremes> how big the blk0001.dat will be next year =(
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2393 2011-07-01 16:11:09 <makomk> gavinandresen: private->public key calculation is indeed slow, but someone on the forums has spotted 2 constant bytes that allow me to eliminate most possibilities.
2394 2011-07-01 16:11:37 <BlueMatt> makomk: if you are scanning the whole drive for keys public key derivation takes no time at all
2395 2011-07-01 16:11:44 <BlueMatt> it takes fractions of a second
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2397 2011-07-01 16:11:57 <BlueMatt> scanning a drive takes...an hour?
2398 2011-07-01 16:11:59 <BlueMatt> more?
2399 2011-07-01 16:12:25 <makomk> Ages, yeah.
2400 2011-07-01 16:13:37 <makomk> I guess I'm going to have to look at what OpenSSL is doing anyway in order to reconstruct a wallet from the keys without excessive mucking around.
2401 2011-07-01 16:14:03 <BlueMatt> no, you just need to look at a bunch of keys out
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2403 2011-07-01 16:14:14 <BlueMatt> privkey section should be 32 bytes
2404 2011-07-01 16:15:13 <makomk> sipa's code obviously provides a way to convert raw private keys, but that just uses OpenSSL directly.
2405 2011-07-01 16:16:30 <BlueMatt> yea, but that doesnt mean you have to
2406 2011-07-01 16:16:58 <BlueMatt> anyway, you dont even need to find privkey in the privkey stored on disk, just find the serialized privkey per or der or whatever
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2408 2011-07-01 16:17:41 <BlueMatt> then set a key CKey via SetPrivKey which will do all the calculation you need
2409 2011-07-01 16:17:58 <BlueMatt> and then GetPubKey to recreate the wallet
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2425 2011-07-01 16:36:44 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r8ff4d3e / lib/script.js : Truncate very long scripts by default when printing them. - http://bit.ly/mOjZMM
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2451 2011-07-01 16:58:45 <MrSam> hmm
2452 2011-07-01 16:58:50 <MrSam> join part quit
2453 2011-07-01 16:58:53 <MrSam> njeh !
2454 2011-07-01 17:00:59 koleg has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
2455 2011-07-01 17:01:11 <MrSam> you better run
2456 2011-07-01 17:01:27 koleg has joined
2457 2011-07-01 17:01:37 <MrSam> wb koleg !
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2471 2011-07-01 17:29:23 <Titeuf_87> When running bitcoin from an empty datadir, I get the following my debug log for the genesis block:
2472 2011-07-01 17:29:26 <Titeuf_87> SetBestChain: new best=000000000019d6689c08  height=0  work=4295032833
2473 2011-07-01 17:29:40 <Titeuf_87> Does anyone know how that work is calculated? I can't seem to figure that out.
2474 2011-07-01 17:31:29 <BlueMatt>         if (bnTarget <= 0)
2475 2011-07-01 17:31:29 <BlueMatt>             return 0;
2476 2011-07-01 17:31:29 <BlueMatt>         return (CBigNum(1)<<256) / (bnTarget+1);
2477 2011-07-01 17:31:33 <BlueMatt> that for each block
2478 2011-07-01 17:33:00 <Titeuf_87> Thanks! Let me see if I can get the same result back.
2479 2011-07-01 17:33:28 <BlueMatt> aka the Bits field in the block
2480 2011-07-01 17:33:34 <BlueMatt> see http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048
2481 2011-07-01 17:33:41 <BlueMatt> aka the genisis block
2482 2011-07-01 17:35:49 TheAncientGoat has joined
2483 2011-07-01 17:42:18 <folklore> what makes that block special
2484 2011-07-01 17:42:34 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2486 2011-07-01 17:42:42 <Titeuf_87> That's the first block in the blockchain.
2487 2011-07-01 17:42:49 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
2488 2011-07-01 17:42:50 <folklore> ahh ok
2489 2011-07-01 17:42:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134248 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 823 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1577218.58897448
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2493 2011-07-01 17:47:39 <pusle> isn't this the first one, block 0 : http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
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2496 2011-07-01 17:50:00 <lianj> pusle: yes
2497 2011-07-01 17:50:03 <Titeuf_87> pusle, it is
2498 2011-07-01 17:50:04 <BlueMatt> oops, yea you are right
2499 2011-07-01 17:50:34 <Titeuf_87> I didn't notice it myself, block earlier was the block following that one.
2500 2011-07-01 17:50:42 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: since when is bitcoind not a pre-built binary?
2501 2011-07-01 17:50:52 <b4epoche> is there a good document read to about what that difficulty number actually means?
2502 2011-07-01 17:51:24 <b4epoche> like why 8 decimal places are needed?
2503 2011-07-01 17:51:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's not in my binary packages i'm looking at
2504 2011-07-01 17:52:02 <Titeuf_87> That's the result of a division.
2505 2011-07-01 17:52:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: osx
2506 2011-07-01 17:52:33 <jrmithdobbs> is it supposed to be?
2507 2011-07-01 17:52:42 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: oh, well probably not on osx, but it is on win32+linux
2508 2011-07-01 17:52:47 <BlueMatt> talk to laszlo
2509 2011-07-01 17:52:56 <BlueMatt> I only do win32+linux builds, laszlo does the osx ones
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2511 2011-07-01 17:53:20 <lianj> b4epoche: ?
2512 2011-07-01 17:54:28 Kothar is now known as kon
2513 2011-07-01 17:56:28 <justmoon> b4epoche, I don't think eight decimal places *are* needed - the difficulty is just max_target/current_target, you can display it with whatever precision you want
2514 2011-07-01 17:56:29 <lianj> b4epoche: its a packed bignum
2515 2011-07-01 17:56:40 <b4epoche> Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725
2516 2011-07-01 17:57:12 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki difficulty
2517 2011-07-01 17:57:13 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty | Jun 24, 2011 ... Difficulty is stored in blocks as a 4 byte integer, and the actual hexadecimal target is derived from it via a predefined formula. ...
2518 2011-07-01 17:57:16 <nanotube> b4epoche: ^
2519 2011-07-01 17:57:21 <b4epoche> ah, so it's a ratio…  which then leads me to ask about max_target and current_target
2520 2011-07-01 17:57:31 <nanotube> b4epoche: read the wiki page
2521 2011-07-01 17:57:34 <nanotube> and you won't need to ask :)
2522 2011-07-01 17:57:45 <justmoon> b4epoche, the target is the hash that the block has to be under
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2524 2011-07-01 17:58:03 <justmoon> b4epoche, max target is the target that the genesis block used
2525 2011-07-01 17:58:15 <justmoon> b4epoche, current target is the target current blocks use
2526 2011-07-01 17:58:18 <lianj> justmoon: the bignum
2527 2011-07-01 17:58:26 <b4epoche> nanotube:  that's what I asked for to begin with…  'a document'
2528 2011-07-01 17:59:07 <nanotube> b4epoche: well, i'm glad i was able to assist, then :)
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2537 2011-07-01 18:07:20 <b4epoche> is there any discussion of why 50 btc for finding a block and 10 minutes to find one?
2538 2011-07-01 18:07:35 <MrSam> :P
2539 2011-07-01 18:07:44 <b4epoche> hadn't noticed this before, Satoshi published his paper on my birthday
2540 2011-07-01 18:08:10 <gmaxwell> For the first, no. 10 minutes is a result of trading off processing delay vs loss of security due to splits given the expected communications delay.
2541 2011-07-01 18:08:12 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2542 2011-07-01 18:08:48 <justmoon> updated the Difficulty wiki page with a more precise distinction between packed target ("Bits") and the difficulty
2543 2011-07-01 18:09:08 <b4epoche> ah, I see…  I was thinking that a 5 btc reward and a 1 minute search time would make for faster processing but then I guess there's a security issue
2544 2011-07-01 18:09:09 <gmaxwell> (there are posts by Satoshi about the design prior to the initial release that talk about the time tradeoff)
2545 2011-07-01 18:09:14 <shLONG> hey im making a bitcoin interface in php
2546 2011-07-01 18:09:17 <shLONG> just wondering
2547 2011-07-01 18:09:29 <shLONG> what do I need to do to make sure the bitcoin decimal place doesnt get chopped?
2548 2011-07-01 18:09:39 <MrSam> use strings and * 10
2549 2011-07-01 18:09:45 <MrSam> sec
2550 2011-07-01 18:09:52 <shLONG> is there a link to this problem on the wiki?
2551 2011-07-01 18:10:08 <MrSam>                 static public function toBtc($minibtc) {
2552 2011-07-01 18:10:08 <MrSam>                         return (($minibtc * 1.0) / pow(10,8));
2553 2011-07-01 18:10:08 <MrSam>                 }
2554 2011-07-01 18:10:13 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yea, no, that doesn't work. Blocks being found faster than the network propagation time needs to be quite rare, or everyone ends up mining on dud forks and an attacker can gain an advantage by mining only his own blocks.
2555 2011-07-01 18:10:14 <MrSam> so the reverse to work with it
2556 2011-07-01 18:10:15 <MrSam> yeah
2557 2011-07-01 18:10:27 <unclemantis> How far along is the private key export for the official bitcoin client?
2558 2011-07-01 18:11:02 <MrSam> shLONG: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
2559 2011-07-01 18:11:12 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2560 2011-07-01 18:11:17 denisx has joined
2561 2011-07-01 18:11:56 <MrSam> but i actually do php <> mysql <> java <> bitcoind
2562 2011-07-01 18:11:58 <b4epoche> would giving people the ability to print their wallet(s) (in human readable form) be a good or bad thing?
2563 2011-07-01 18:12:07 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: as far as 50 goes, I think it was mostly random, plus it allows a number of halvings before it gets under 1.  The absolute values used aren't economically significant however.
2564 2011-07-01 18:12:12 <MrSam> so java can keep running and wachting for transactions and stuff
2565 2011-07-01 18:12:29 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: I'd rather have QR codes than human readable.
2566 2011-07-01 18:12:33 <b4epoche> MrSam:  just use a php runloop ;-)
2567 2011-07-01 18:12:38 <MrSam> and i would absolutely not recommend running php in daemon
2568 2011-07-01 18:12:39 <MrSam> :P
2569 2011-07-01 18:12:55 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: and it would be good, and I'm pretty sure it will be done sometime after the change to qt.
2570 2011-07-01 18:13:22 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  you mean QR code printing would be good, or any kind?
2571 2011-07-01 18:13:41 <MrSam> shLONG: so, do you have all the information that you need ?
2572 2011-07-01 18:13:44 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: well, any kind, I guess. But QR printing has the advantage of making it easier to get back into the computer.
2573 2011-07-01 18:13:49 <MrSam> i accept all donations ;)
2574 2011-07-01 18:14:11 <b4epoche> more people can probably do OCR than QR reading
2575 2011-07-01 18:14:16 <shLONG> MrSam: how can I check if my php supports 64 bit numbers?
2576 2011-07-01 18:14:26 <MrSam> dancing around on your head
2577 2011-07-01 18:14:33 <egecko> having some trouble getting bitcoind to startup at boot on a debian install.. i have the init.d script written, it starts and stops bitcoind when i run it manually, and the script has been added to the init sequence with update-rc.d (and insserv which apparently replaces update-rc.d on the new debian squeeze), anyone have any experience getting bitcoind to run on boot?
2578 2011-07-01 18:14:37 <MrSam> or sysinfo or something like that
2579 2011-07-01 18:14:41 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: ^^
2580 2011-07-01 18:14:58 <MrSam> egecko: i use cron and onboot
2581 2011-07-01 18:15:12 <MrSam>   @reboot /path/to/my/program
2582 2011-07-01 18:15:18 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: bitcoin could just include a QR reader too. reliable QR decode is much simpler than general OCR.
2583 2011-07-01 18:15:26 <MrSam> all this information that i give away for free
2584 2011-07-01 18:15:32 <MrSam> i should be rich by now
2585 2011-07-01 18:15:33 * b4epoche is d/ling a Cocoa QR lib
2586 2011-07-01 18:16:08 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yea, I assume libraries to write them will also read them.
2587 2011-07-01 18:16:24 <b4epoche> but I was thinking that like Acrobat and stuff do good OCR
2588 2011-07-01 18:16:44 <b4epoche> well, it seems like reading them is a lot more difficult than writing them...
2589 2011-07-01 18:16:56 <b4epoche> but it does seem the libraries I've found do both
2590 2011-07-01 18:17:40 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: sure. Acrobat reader does OCR?? damn if they're stuffing that much crap in it no wonder that its so frequently exploited.
2591 2011-07-01 18:18:02 <b4epoche> not Reader, but the non-free Acrobat
2592 2011-07-01 18:18:08 <b4epoche> it's done OCR for a long time
2593 2011-07-01 18:18:32 <gmaxwell> Oh the creator tools.
2594 2011-07-01 18:18:42 <MrSam> hmm
2595 2011-07-01 18:18:50 <MrSam> anyone here has that json url of mtgox
2596 2011-07-01 18:18:54 kluge has joined
2597 2011-07-01 18:18:55 <MrSam> where you can see the open orders ?
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2599 2011-07-01 18:20:26 <b4epoche> is there a preferred cross-platform QR lib that folks have been looking at?
2600 2011-07-01 18:21:00 <b4epoche> the one I got:  http://code.google.com/p/zxing/downloads/detail?name=ZXing-1.7.zip&can=2&q=
2601 2011-07-01 18:22:15 Sebastan has joined
2602 2011-07-01 18:24:21 <MrSam> here go you
2603 2011-07-01 18:24:21 <MrSam> https://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php
2604 2011-07-01 18:24:23 <MrSam> nothing beats grep
2605 2011-07-01 18:25:28 <b4epoche> nothing beats regex
2606 2011-07-01 18:25:34 Nicksasa has joined
2607 2011-07-01 18:25:41 <MrSam> you can regex grep
2608 2011-07-01 18:26:05 <b4epoche> I know…  but it's regex that's powerful
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2614 2011-07-01 18:30:23 <Mad7Scientist> I sent 5 BTC before all the blocks were complete in my client
2615 2011-07-01 18:30:29 <Mad7Scientist> it said 0/offline?
2616 2011-07-01 18:30:35 <Mad7Scientist> then it went to 0/unconfirmed
2617 2011-07-01 18:30:42 <Mad7Scientist> the receiver has seen nothing yet
2618 2011-07-01 18:30:56 <b4epoche> when'd you do it?
2619 2011-07-01 18:31:18 <Mad7Scientist> maybe 10 minutes ago
2620 2011-07-01 18:31:33 <Mad7Scientist> it went to the next block and still says 0/unconfirmed
2621 2011-07-01 18:31:46 <b4epoche> wait
2622 2011-07-01 18:31:49 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2623 2011-07-01 18:32:34 <Mad7Scientist> 134255 blocks now
2624 2011-07-01 18:32:37 pklaus has joined
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2626 2011-07-01 18:32:49 <b4epoche> ;;bc,stats
2627 2011-07-01 18:32:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134255 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 816 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 20 hours, 44 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1578642.99321876
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2630 2011-07-01 18:32:58 <Mad7Scientist> It went to 0/unconfirmed at 134253
2631 2011-07-01 18:33:08 <Mad7Scientist> I hope this isn't going to be an expensive bug in the program
2632 2011-07-01 18:33:12 <b4epoche> it probably didn't get included in that block
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2634 2011-07-01 18:33:38 <b4epoche> I'm sure it isn't
2635 2011-07-01 18:33:55 <b4epoche> it takes time to communicate/confirm things
2636 2011-07-01 18:34:00 stuhood has left ()
2637 2011-07-01 18:34:14 <manveru> if it gets rejected, you didn't lose anything :)
2638 2011-07-01 18:35:11 <manveru> damnit, my grammar is down in the dumps, time for sleep
2639 2011-07-01 18:36:27 <unclemantis> a little offtopic. Anyone in here using a ruby gem for this api? http://random.irb.hr/
2640 2011-07-01 18:36:27 lumos has joined
2641 2011-07-01 18:37:10 <b4epoche> actually, that brings up a point that may or may not need to be addressed (at some point)…  first time users all seem to have this same stress about their tx vaporizing in the ether
2642 2011-07-01 18:38:04 <b4epoche> maybe, "Waiting for confirmation (this can take up to 30 minutes)" would be good
2643 2011-07-01 18:38:38 <Mad7Scientist> just showed up as 0/unconfirmed at his end
2644 2011-07-01 18:38:41 <Namegduf> Mad7Scientist: A transaction either goes through or it doesn't.
2645 2011-07-01 18:38:57 <Namegduf> You can't lose the money and not have them gain it.
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2648 2011-07-01 18:39:16 <Mad7Scientist> If you send money to a non existant bitcoin address with correct CRC you can lose it!
2649 2011-07-01 18:39:20 * egecko celebrates getting bitcoind running on a linux box at startup
2650 2011-07-01 18:39:42 <Namegduf> Well, yes, but in that case the other address still gains it, it just doesn't belong to anyone. :P
2651 2011-07-01 18:40:06 <Namegduf> Not related to transactions getting "lost" due to not having all the blocks, anyway.
2652 2011-07-01 18:40:19 <lianj> Mad7Scientist: not if it doesnt get into the blockchain
2653 2011-07-01 18:40:32 <Namegduf> If you didn't have all the blocks, you could spend money that you'd already spent from another client in those blocks
2654 2011-07-01 18:40:45 <Namegduf> And any node who did have all the clients would ignore that transaction.
2655 2011-07-01 18:40:54 <Namegduf> So it wouldn't go through.
2656 2011-07-01 18:41:06 <Namegduf> That's about it, for generating transactions which will be ignored, though.
2657 2011-07-01 18:41:17 <Namegduf> And that wouldn't lose you money, it'd just not have anything happen.
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2695 2011-07-01 19:26:19 * diki remebered when he was finally able to compile php 5.2.14 for symbian s60v5
2696 2011-07-01 19:26:28 <diki> and....it didn't fucking work
2697 2011-07-01 19:27:10 <diki> the php dll was compiled...somehow it didn't want to be loaded by apache
2698 2011-07-01 19:27:24 mekel has joined
2699 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <mekel> is there anything you guys dont like about mtgox?
2700 2011-07-01 19:28:44 btcrowan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2701 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <cacheson> heh
2702 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <BlueMatt> making a competitor?
2703 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <diki> not in particular
2704 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <conjre> mekel: the name?
2705 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <diki> dont tell me
2706 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <diki> trademountain.com
2707 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <BlueMatt> interface could be a bit less js-Dependant
2708 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <mekel> well
2709 2011-07-01 19:28:44 <mekel> im just wondering what else is out there
2710 2011-07-01 19:29:06 <diki> BlueMatt:this is 2011
2711 2011-07-01 19:29:08 <diki> not 2004
2712 2011-07-01 19:29:10 <BlueMatt> theres quite a few
2713 2011-07-01 19:29:14 <mekel> haha
2714 2011-07-01 19:29:18 <diki> nor are we using IE6
2715 2011-07-01 19:29:25 <cacheson> diki: javascript on mtgox is still crap
2716 2011-07-01 19:29:37 <BlueMatt> diki: yea, but that doesnt mean the entire website should just sit there and say "give me js" it should do something useful
2717 2011-07-01 19:29:48 mosimo has joined
2718 2011-07-01 19:29:49 <diki> like?
2719 2011-07-01 19:29:52 <conjre> mekel: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Currency_exchanges
2720 2011-07-01 19:30:13 <mekel> nice link thank u
2721 2011-07-01 19:30:49 <diki> BlueMatt:although html5 will come in 2022, most websites will adopt some part of it waaay earlier than that
2722 2011-07-01 19:30:58 <diki> and html5 combined with js and ajax
2723 2011-07-01 19:31:00 <BlueMatt> html5 doesnt contain js
2724 2011-07-01 19:31:02 <diki> will be win
2725 2011-07-01 19:31:03 <BlueMatt> ajax?
2726 2011-07-01 19:31:10 <BlueMatt> this is 2011 not 2006
2727 2011-07-01 19:31:19 <mekel> what else do u not likeBlueMatt, and wat exchange do u use?
2728 2011-07-01 19:31:28 <BlueMatt> I use mtgox
2729 2011-07-01 19:31:31 <diki> well ajax is JS
2730 2011-07-01 19:31:37 <cacheson> diki: have you ever looked at the orderbook on mtgox?
2731 2011-07-01 19:31:43 <diki> but it makes pages a bit faster
2732 2011-07-01 19:31:46 <BlueMatt> diki: sorry, yea
2733 2011-07-01 19:32:08 <mekel> what do u mean the orderbook cacheson
2734 2011-07-01 19:32:17 <cacheson> mekel: list of open trades
2735 2011-07-01 19:32:24 <mekel> aah
2736 2011-07-01 19:32:29 <BlueMatt> mekel: the ui kinda sucks on mtgox, but I cant really complain it works
2737 2011-07-01 19:32:54 <cacheson> you have to load the page, then wait for the javascript to go and actually get the trade data
2738 2011-07-01 19:33:17 <cacheson> why not just send the order data as part of the page?  I thought PHP could do anything  :P
2739 2011-07-01 19:33:47 <diki> it can
2740 2011-07-01 19:33:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: in case you are interested, the dnsseed has settled down and has 5484 known nodes which accept incoming connections
2741 2011-07-01 19:33:49 <shLONG> C:\xampp\htdocs\roulette\jsonrpcphp\includes\jsonRPCClient.php:140 Stack trace: #0 C:\xampp\htdocs\roulette\setdeal.php(16): jsonRPCClient->__call('getaccount', Array) #1 C:\xampp\htdocs\roulette\setdeal.php(16): jsonRPCClient->getaccount('1MPnydJyLtr23B2...') #2 {main} thrown in
2742 2011-07-01 19:33:53 <diki> but it's up to the coder
2743 2011-07-01 19:33:58 <shLONG> anyone have any idea what could be going wrong :S
2744 2011-07-01 19:33:59 <cacheson> diki: that was a joke
2745 2011-07-01 19:34:04 <shLONG> 	$house_address = "1MPnydJyLtr23B2QwshYnbvuKjSUT9uBkJ";
2746 2011-07-01 19:34:04 <shLONG> 	$house_account = $bitcoin->getaccount($house_address);
2747 2011-07-01 19:34:12 <diki> then say so lol
2748 2011-07-01 19:34:24 <diki> since when does php output a stack trace?
2749 2011-07-01 19:34:29 <diki> ...or apache or whatever
2750 2011-07-01 19:34:32 <BlueMatt> php is turing-complete, it can technically do everything...
2751 2011-07-01 19:34:41 <cacheson> diki: I figured you'd probably seen MagicalTux's signature
2752 2011-07-01 19:34:45 <BlueMatt> whether it should is a different matter
2753 2011-07-01 19:35:36 <upb> diki: when you use exceptions instead of 'or die("ERROR")' :)
2754 2011-07-01 19:36:06 <diki> honestly i've never used catch/try but was thinking about it
2755 2011-07-01 19:36:20 <BlueMatt> never used try/catch?
2756 2011-07-01 19:36:21 <BlueMatt> wtf?
2757 2011-07-01 19:36:25 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2758 2011-07-01 19:36:43 <jrmithdobbs> upb: this is diki, step back, you're gonna have to explain what exceptions are now
2759 2011-07-01 19:36:51 <shLONG> anyone have any idea what im doing wrong then? :S
2760 2011-07-01 19:36:53 <jrmithdobbs> diki: did you ever buy those books?
2761 2011-07-01 19:38:02 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2762 2011-07-01 19:38:05 <Mad7Scientist> ;;bc,stats
2763 2011-07-01 19:38:06 <upb> shLONG: you didnt show the actual exception just the stack trace
2764 2011-07-01 19:38:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134260 | Current Difficulty: 1379223.4296725 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 811 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 18 hours, 53 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1577985.95314672
2765 2011-07-01 19:38:30 <shLONG> Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'Exception'
2766 2011-07-01 19:38:44 <upb> lol
2767 2011-07-01 19:38:50 <upb> look at whats at line 140 then
2768 2011-07-01 19:38:52 <diki> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23944.0
2769 2011-07-01 19:38:55 <mekel> what do u guys think about the way u add money/ btc's to mtgox
2770 2011-07-01 19:39:02 <shLONG> Warning: fopen(http://...@localhost:8369/) [function.fopen]: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! in
2771 2011-07-01 19:39:03 <diki> i wonder how people write all that stuff and still get their account rejected
2772 2011-07-01 19:39:10 <shLONG> C:\xampp\htdocs\roulette\jsonrpcphp\includes\jsonRPCClient.php on line 140
2773 2011-07-01 19:39:19 <diki> i wrote only two things to get my mtgox account back and was accepted on the first try
2774 2011-07-01 19:39:27 <upb> well there you have it, http request failed
2775 2011-07-01 19:39:35 <shLONG> aye but it shouldent fail
2776 2011-07-01 19:39:46 <shLONG> theres nothing wrong with it, it doest fail in any of my other php file
2777 2011-07-01 19:39:49 <shLONG> files*
2778 2011-07-01 19:41:02 <zamgo> shLONG:  use @fopen to hide the errors, and then catch the error and properly fail
2779 2011-07-01 19:41:18 <shLONG> this is really wierd
2780 2011-07-01 19:41:21 <shLONG> it seems to work now
2781 2011-07-01 19:41:33 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2782 2011-07-01 19:41:40 <zamgo> jsonrpcclient out-of-the-box does not do error handling well
2783 2011-07-01 19:41:40 <shLONG> it seems to decide if its going to work or not depending on the 0.xxx i pass into the php file as a parameter
2784 2011-07-01 19:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> zamgo: lol php
2785 2011-07-01 19:41:55 <shLONG> http://localhost/roulette/setdeal.php?user_recvaddr=1EzKXxrAVVwerBRXKA88oQu9FNypwXkgTL&user_bet=0.003&bet_multiplier=2
2786 2011-07-01 19:41:58 erus` has joined
2787 2011-07-01 19:42:08 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2788 2011-07-01 19:42:13 <shLONG> user_bet=0.003 - depending on this value, it likes to fail from time to time :S
2789 2011-07-01 19:42:21 <jrmithdobbs> zamgo: do you really have to supress it to handle the exception without it printing an error?
2790 2011-07-01 19:43:18 liltoe has joined
2791 2011-07-01 19:43:24 <zamgo> see bottom of https://github.com/zamgo/bitcoin-webskin/blob/master/plugins/jsonRPCClient.php    for example
2792 2011-07-01 19:43:32 <zamgo> with fopen, yes
2793 2011-07-01 19:43:35 <zamgo> php is bad that way
2794 2011-07-01 19:43:49 <zamgo> unless you can do some error_handling on it, dunno
2795 2011-07-01 19:44:27 <zamgo> 'ignore_errors' => 1   will get you back errors from bitcoind, instead of jsonrpc ignoring the error report
2796 2011-07-01 19:45:06 <jrmithdobbs> zamgo: that's hilarious.
2797 2011-07-01 19:45:51 <b4epoche> oooo…  Lion GM out
2798 2011-07-01 19:45:53 Stellar has joined
2799 2011-07-01 19:46:55 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2800 2011-07-01 19:47:50 ThomasV has joined
2801 2011-07-01 19:50:51 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
2802 2011-07-01 19:53:14 BTCTrader is now known as BTCTrader_away
2803 2011-07-01 20:00:43 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2804 2011-07-01 20:01:34 jav__ has joined
2805 2011-07-01 20:02:40 <shLONG> wtf
2806 2011-07-01 20:02:41 <shLONG> $bitcoin->move($user_recvaddr, $house_account, $user_bet, 0);
2807 2011-07-01 20:02:47 <shLONG> now that doesnt work >.<
2808 2011-07-01 20:02:55 <shLONG> user_recvaddr is the name of the account
2809 2011-07-01 20:03:15 <zamgo> what's the error you're getting?
2810 2011-07-01 20:03:47 <shLONG> no error it just doesnt happen
2811 2011-07-01 20:06:09 <shLONG> user_bet is a floatval(
2812 2011-07-01 20:06:34 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
2813 2011-07-01 20:06:37 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2814 2011-07-01 20:07:54 <jav__> Question: If I use Bitcoins account feature, is the information about balances of different accounts completely contained in wallet.dat? or is there some additional file with account information that I would need to back up?
2815 2011-07-01 20:08:09 <tcatm> jav__: everything is in wallet.dat
2816 2011-07-01 20:09:33 <jav__> tcatm: thx.. from reading the code I can confirm that.. I just had a weird experience once, where I loaded up a wallet.dat which had the right balance but all the accounts were pretty screwed up (a lot of them being negative) .. any idea how that could happen?
2817 2011-07-01 20:09:48 <zamgo> negative balances are possible
2818 2011-07-01 20:09:51 <zamgo> 'accounting feature'
2819 2011-07-01 20:10:33 <jav__> zamgo: I know they are possible.. but that wallet didn't have those
2820 2011-07-01 20:12:19 <jav__> thinking about it more, I can imagine one reason: That wallet was a copy from a live system.. so maybe the live system had been creating transactions and fixing up the account table internally... whereas my backup coyp saw the transactions on the block chain but didn't have the necessary fixes to the account table which resulted in the weird output
2821 2011-07-01 20:14:21 b4epoche_is_out has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2822 2011-07-01 20:15:16 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2823 2011-07-01 20:16:02 <jav__> that same wallet also sometimes displayed different outputs for "getbalance" and "getbalance *" which - according to rpc.cpp - should never happen :-/ .. right now it matches though
2824 2011-07-01 20:18:19 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2825 2011-07-01 20:21:28 hallowworld has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2826 2011-07-01 20:22:47 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2827 2011-07-01 20:23:54 nus has joined
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2829 2011-07-01 20:24:34 caedes has quit (Changing host)
2830 2011-07-01 20:24:34 caedes has joined
2831 2011-07-01 20:25:28 <jav__> I'm getting a little worried about scaling Instawallet... I have squashed one problem with "getbalance" taking very long (by writing a cache for it), but "sendfrom" starts taking fairly long as well... it seems the code isn't really written for very large wallets and I wonder how deeply rooted the assumptions about a small wallet are in the code
2832 2011-07-01 20:26:05 huk has joined
2833 2011-07-01 20:26:45 hallowworld has joined
2834 2011-07-01 20:26:49 <jav__> not that the site has all that many users.. but the nature of the approach means I have to generate a lot of addresses and - right now - a lot of accounts as well
2835 2011-07-01 20:27:44 <zamgo> could do multiple wallets... be more complicated code, though
2836 2011-07-01 20:28:58 dacoinminster has joined
2837 2011-07-01 20:29:36 <nanotube> jav__: possibly better to use your own accounts-overlay db than the built-in.
2838 2011-07-01 20:30:49 <zamgo> ooh
2839 2011-07-01 20:31:20 HaltingState has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2840 2011-07-01 20:31:23 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2841 2011-07-01 20:31:23 <zamgo> you still have to poll each address for balance, yes?
2842 2011-07-01 20:31:40 mekel has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2843 2011-07-01 20:32:26 <jav__> zamgo: no, I have switched to a system which uses the monitor patch and calls me on new transactions, I can then run getbalance only on the affected account
2844 2011-07-01 20:32:28 DukeOfURL has joined
2845 2011-07-01 20:32:39 <zamgo> ah better
2846 2011-07-01 20:32:56 <nanotube> yea if you keep track of incoming/outdoing tx, you can keep your balances entirely in your own db
2847 2011-07-01 20:33:03 <shLONG> sould I avoid calling getbalance a lot then? does it take a while to compute?
2848 2011-07-01 20:33:03 <nanotube> and avoid dealing with the wallet so much
2849 2011-07-01 20:33:51 <nanotube> thougm maybe the wallet db should just be reengineered to maintain more indices, so that various operations don't take so long.
2850 2011-07-01 20:33:53 <jav__> shLONG: if you have a large wallet (and a slow VPS) then yes.. because it runs over all transactions anew for each call and calculcates stuff from scratch
2851 2011-07-01 20:34:06 <shLONG> :O
2852 2011-07-01 20:34:10 <shLONG> okies
2853 2011-07-01 20:34:33 <jav__> shLONG: I wrote a cache to speed that up.. I will post a patch to the mailing list in the next days, don't have access to it here
2854 2011-07-01 20:35:37 <shLONG> is it a big deal if I have a lot of recieve addresses with random amouts of btc in
2855 2011-07-01 20:35:45 <jav__> nanotube: about that keeping track of incoming/outgoing tx... I don't really want to duplicate too much Bitcoin logic on my side.. because then I would also need to be able to deal with things like block-chain reorgs so that the balances don't get out of sync
2856 2011-07-01 20:35:48 <shLONG> or should I keep it all in one account if possible
2857 2011-07-01 20:36:02 <nanotube> jav__: yea indeed.
2858 2011-07-01 20:36:13 <gmaxwell> jav__: there are a fair number of low hanging fruit for worst case performance, I think. E.g. I found that getbalance/coin selection is basically exptime on unconfirmed self txn (e.g. reusing change)... but it doesn't have to be.
2859 2011-07-01 20:36:33 sgornick has joined
2860 2011-07-01 20:37:02 <ius> makomk: just caught up with my backlog - why is priv->pub key generation so slow? Isn't it just Q=d*G?
2861 2011-07-01 20:37:12 <jav__> nanotube: so I'm still thinking of what would be the best way to do external accounting... maybe some kind of event stream from bitcoin which would also include some kind of "revoke" event when things change due to a reorg
2862 2011-07-01 20:37:25 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2863 2011-07-01 20:37:34 <gmaxwell> ius: jrmithdobbs was speculating key gen was slow due to fsync write to the database.
2864 2011-07-01 20:37:46 <gmaxwell> ius: because his tool for it was a zillion times faster.
2865 2011-07-01 20:37:52 <nanotube> jav__: yea that would work. though ideally... the bitcoin wallet db itself would stop being so inefficient :)
2866 2011-07-01 20:38:44 <ius> gmaxwell: ecc point mul is *relatively* expensive, but not in the order of milisecs really. You mean fsync by bdb internally or something (not familiar with bdb sadly)?
2867 2011-07-01 20:38:49 <jrmithdobbs> ya my encoding in that code is still slightly fucked up but i know the keys are good and work
2868 2011-07-01 20:39:05 <jav__> nanotube: even better I guess =) .. because the biggest worry with that event stream for me would be to make sure you stay in sync.. sometimes you will have to shut down bitcoind and/or your application and when you start everything back up, you shouldn't have missed any events .. so ideally bitcoind should just deal with it.. and do it fast and efficient =)
2869 2011-07-01 20:39:07 <jrmithdobbs> ius: nah man, i can gen the actual ec keys at about 500-1000/s
2870 2011-07-01 20:39:16 <ius> Yeah exactly
2871 2011-07-01 20:39:16 <gmaxwell> ius: it's slow as in a couple of million cycles.
2872 2011-07-01 20:39:30 <jrmithdobbs> ius: but bitcoin takes 5-10s per keypool refresh
2873 2011-07-01 20:39:33 <nanotube> maybe in the long term, separating the keystore from the transactions db from the accounts db would go a long way to sorting these things out.
2874 2011-07-01 20:39:40 <jrmithdobbs> ius: which is only 100 keys
2875 2011-07-01 20:39:44 <zamgo> +1 nanotube
2876 2011-07-01 20:40:00 <ius> jrmithdobbs: Well, why is that slow then?
2877 2011-07-01 20:40:19 <jrmithdobbs> ius: i speculate it's the db fsyncing but haven't gotten around to really looking
2878 2011-07-01 20:40:44 <jrmithdobbs> from what gmaxwell found yesterday testing wallet crypto i think the problem may run deeper than that
2879 2011-07-01 20:40:52 <ius> Well, a fsync should be nearly instant too? The wallet file is quite small?
2880 2011-07-01 20:41:00 <jrmithdobbs> ya
2881 2011-07-01 20:41:22 <jrmithdobbs> it does a whole lot of extra buffer copies it doesn't need to, i know for sure
2882 2011-07-01 20:41:27 <jrmithdobbs> but i don't think that's the only problem
2883 2011-07-01 20:41:34 <jrmithdobbs> there's something really bad going on
2884 2011-07-01 20:42:03 elnato is now known as midget
2885 2011-07-01 20:42:15 Nicksasa has quit (Quit: BNC Failed.)
2886 2011-07-01 20:42:16 <gmaxwell> Well. so... run it in callgrind or with oprofile and find out why. :)
2887 2011-07-01 20:42:22 <ius> I see. Well I guess you could chase the import code down the rabbit hole and see what's to blame..
2888 2011-07-01 20:42:32 midget is now known as Guest72693
2889 2011-07-01 20:42:41 <gmaxwell> Just take a disconnected node and profile it while running getnewaddress in a loop.
2890 2011-07-01 20:42:49 <ius> Yeah, that. gprof it what I had some success with
2891 2011-07-01 20:42:56 Guest72693 is now known as elnato
2892 2011-07-01 20:42:57 <jav__> gmaxwell: what would be your guess why "sendfrom" is slow? do you think it's the coin selection or something related to locking/flushing the database?
2893 2011-07-01 20:43:49 Nicksasa has joined
2894 2011-07-01 20:44:02 <gmaxwell> jav__: is sendfrom slows compared e.g. to sendtoaddress?
2895 2011-07-01 20:44:23 <gmaxwell> s/slows/slow/
2896 2011-07-01 20:44:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, been trying to fix my key/addr encoding instead when i've had time
2897 2011-07-01 20:44:32 <jav__> gmaxwell: no, I don't know.. sendtoaddress might be slow as well
2898 2011-07-01 20:45:33 scott`_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2899 2011-07-01 20:46:12 <gmaxwell> Yea, well, the thing I found can make it very slow in some cases. You might be hitting that.  (in order to do coin selection it has to check isconfirmed, isconfirmed on a unconfirmd self output (e.g. chainge) ends up calling isconfirmed on all its inputs, and so on)
2900 2011-07-01 20:46:22 <jav__> gmaxwell: I'm only using three methods in my application: getnewaddress (no problems here so far), getbalance (had problems, wrote a hacky cache for it which has helped) and sendfrom (which starts to get slow and I'm now looking into what I can do about it)
2901 2011-07-01 20:47:14 <jav__> gmaxwell: I see.. it's not so much "worst case" performance though.. it takes more or less the same time on each call
2902 2011-07-01 20:48:15 <gmaxwell> Ah, well then probably not the thing I found. e.g. the thing I found makes it take exponentially more time the more unconfirmed change you have, taking >minutes once you get to 30 or so chained inputs. but it's fine after they are confirmed.
2903 2011-07-01 20:48:31 <gmaxwell> The best thing to do is to profile it.
2904 2011-07-01 20:48:59 <gmaxwell> take a copy of your wallet offline (-connect=0.0.0.0) and then blast it with sendfrom while running oprofile.
2905 2011-07-01 20:49:58 darin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2906 2011-07-01 20:50:00 <jav__> gmaxwell: aw, I didn't realize you can call sendfrom even without connections... yes, I might try that
2907 2011-07-01 20:50:18 <gmaxwell> yea. Just be careful to delete the wallet with the junk in it. :)
2908 2011-07-01 20:50:24 <gmaxwell> (before reconnecting)
2909 2011-07-01 20:50:32 <jav__> yes, definitely
2910 2011-07-01 20:52:18 pusle has quit ()
2911 2011-07-01 20:52:43 <ius> pff takes well over 10s
2912 2011-07-01 20:52:57 kakazza has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2913 2011-07-01 20:52:59 lumos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2914 2011-07-01 20:53:14 <jav__> regarding my balance cache: Basically it calculates balances for all accounts whenever there is a new wallet transaction or a new block .. it works well for Instawallet right now, although I don't find it a very "clean" solution. I think the best thing would be to keep running balances for all accounts and update them when new transactions are available or when things change because of a reorg.. a little tricky to do, but it seems kind of wasteful to alw
2915 2011-07-01 20:53:14 <jav__> ays recalculate the balance of an account completely from scratch when you need it
2916 2011-07-01 20:53:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: the unconfirmed change taking exponential time is purposely not fixed.  The only people with lots of unconfirmed change aught to be transactions spammers.....
2917 2011-07-01 20:53:56 <ius> jrmithdobbs: There we go
2918 2011-07-01 20:54:03 <ius>  51.40      7.54     7.54                             sha256_block_data_order
2919 2011-07-01 20:54:08 Strom- has joined
2920 2011-07-01 20:54:13 Strom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2921 2011-07-01 20:54:36 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2922 2011-07-01 20:54:43 <ius> (time, cumul. secs, self secs)
2923 2011-07-01 20:54:44 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: might as well insert detection for that and a sleep. If you don't care about the smartest input selection you can just put return true in isconfirmed for self transactions.
2924 2011-07-01 20:54:46 <gavinandresen> And jav__ : yup, optimizing for very large wallets hasn't been done.
2925 2011-07-01 20:55:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: as it stands it makes it very hard to do offline automated testing.
2926 2011-07-01 20:55:30 <makomk> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25091.0 - I really need to make this less of a massive hack, but...
2927 2011-07-01 20:55:43 TheZimm has joined
2928 2011-07-01 20:55:46 <jrmithdobbs> ius: ?
2929 2011-07-01 20:55:55 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yeah, I shot myself in the foot running into that problem doing automated testing, too...
2930 2011-07-01 20:56:13 <ius> That's what gprof tells me after doing a run where I just import a privkey
2931 2011-07-01 20:56:37 <ius> Suggests the majority of the time is spent in script.cpp:Solver() for whatever reason(?)
2932 2011-07-01 20:56:49 lumos has joined
2933 2011-07-01 20:56:53 <jrmithdobbs> wtf how is it kicking off solver for key import at all?
2934 2011-07-01 20:57:03 <jrmithdobbs> that code shouldn't even be getting triggered
2935 2011-07-01 20:57:14 <ius> oh doh, I guess it needs to find all relevant transactions?
2936 2011-07-01 20:57:18 <gmaxwell> scanning for txns, of course. And it's probably getting triggered via isconfirmed?
2937 2011-07-01 20:57:31 <jrmithdobbs> ius: but i was talking about exporting not importing ...
2938 2011-07-01 20:58:04 <jav__> in my profiling, I also found the code spending a lot of time in EncodeBase58.. at least If I was reading the output correctly
2939 2011-07-01 20:58:06 <jrmithdobbs> ius: just calling getnewadress in a loop will show what i was talking about
2940 2011-07-01 20:58:07 <ius> Ouch, I wasn't. That's odd? You mean it takes time to export a key?
2941 2011-07-01 20:58:15 <gmaxwell> ius: I'm a fan of callgrind + kcachegrind, because it'll give you profiles with call trees, e.g. https://people.xiph.org/~greg/slow_big_wallet.png
2942 2011-07-01 20:58:21 <jrmithdobbs> jav__: ya because it does 5 unecessary buffer dups
2943 2011-07-01 20:58:26 <jrmithdobbs> jav__: that is not an exageration
2944 2011-07-01 20:58:55 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: copying is cheap, you'd never notice 50 much less 5. :)
2945 2011-07-01 20:58:58 Vaati_ has joined
2946 2011-07-01 20:59:07 <jrmithdobbs> jav__: tracing the calls from key load from wallet -> address creation is pretty lol
2947 2011-07-01 20:59:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya but inbetween it does a bunch of BIGNUM math too
2948 2011-07-01 20:59:39 <ius> gmaxwell: Oh looks nice - last time I used gprof, perhaps because I was profiling on a remote box
2949 2011-07-01 21:00:14 <gmaxwell> yea, I use kcachegrind remotely too, you just have to sync over the profile output. (or use remote X, but I like pain…)
2950 2011-07-01 21:00:44 <Vaati_> who made bitcoin ?
2951 2011-07-01 21:01:32 <egecko> what port # is irc for bitcoin?
2952 2011-07-01 21:01:39 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
2953 2011-07-01 21:01:41 <egecko> shatoshi nakamoto
2954 2011-07-01 21:01:53 <Vaati_> is satoshi nakamoto in here ?
2955 2011-07-01 21:02:02 <gmaxwell> egecko: 6667, same as normal.
2956 2011-07-01 21:02:07 <BlueMatt> Vaati_: he doesnt exist
2957 2011-07-01 21:02:12 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: he's no longer active with the project.
2958 2011-07-01 21:02:34 <folklore> whered he go
2959 2011-07-01 21:02:46 <b4epoche>  /and/ doesn't exist...
2960 2011-07-01 21:02:51 <b4epoche> someone's sock puppet
2961 2011-07-01 21:03:07 <BlueMatt> its clearly a pseudonym
2962 2011-07-01 21:03:26 <BlueMatt> he/she is likely american based on the time he/she usually posted to the forum
2963 2011-07-01 21:03:26 <folklore> weird he just disappeared
2964 2011-07-01 21:03:38 <Vaati_> this is nonsense
2965 2011-07-01 21:03:41 <Namegduf> I don't think it can be a sock puppet if it existed before anyone else was involved
2966 2011-07-01 21:03:44 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: what is nonsense?
2967 2011-07-01 21:03:47 <Vaati_> satoshi
2968 2011-07-01 21:03:49 <Vaati_> is nonsense
2969 2011-07-01 21:04:00 <BlueMatt> also, he/she no longer answers emails which (s)he used to even after s(he) left the project/stopped responding to forum posts/coding
2970 2011-07-01 21:04:00 <egecko> why?
2971 2011-07-01 21:04:03 <Vaati_> I doubt he ever existed
2972 2011-07-01 21:04:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: or in the UK based on the idiomatic lanuage.
2973 2011-07-01 21:04:10 <egecko> he wsa involved and then decided to stop
2974 2011-07-01 21:04:21 <OneFixt> the code wrote itself
2975 2011-07-01 21:04:21 <Namegduf> Vaati_: Bitcoin was originally made by someone who went by the psuedonym Satoshi, who is no longer involved. No one knows their real name.
2976 2011-07-01 21:04:27 <BlueMatt> Vaati_: its clearly a pseudonym
2977 2011-07-01 21:04:31 <egecko> maybe he reached the level of satisfaction he was looking for
2978 2011-07-01 21:04:32 <Vaati_> for a founder of a project that is as large as bitcoin to be completely unknown is just too mind-boggling
2979 2011-07-01 21:04:41 <Namegduf> Well, SOMEONE existed
2980 2011-07-01 21:04:48 <Vaati_> possibly more than one
2981 2011-07-01 21:04:48 <Namegduf> And claimed to be that name and wrote bitcoin
2982 2011-07-01 21:04:53 <Namegduf> Or someones, yes.
2983 2011-07-01 21:04:56 <BlueMatt> or he got bored, he ran the project for like what 2-3 years, anyone would get bored after that ong
2984 2011-07-01 21:05:01 <xelister> Vaati_: he has milions of USD possibly, ofc. he wants to remain anon?
2985 2011-07-01 21:05:09 <folklore> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto
2986 2011-07-01 21:05:12 <xelister> BlueMatt: bullshit and you know it =)
2987 2011-07-01 21:05:20 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: Eh, lots of widely used software is written by no-nname or pseudonymous folks.
2988 2011-07-01 21:05:21 <cacheson> didn't we just have this discussion today?
2989 2011-07-01 21:05:22 <Vaati_> at any rate -- is there someone who is now a lead developer of bitcoin ?
2990 2011-07-01 21:05:27 <BlueMatt> xelister: who doesnt get board of running a project for that long?
2991 2011-07-01 21:05:37 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2992 2011-07-01 21:05:41 <cacheson> Vaati_: gavin
2993 2011-07-01 21:05:45 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: Why dont' you read the webpage? the core developers are listed ...
2994 2011-07-01 21:05:45 lumos is now known as lum
2995 2011-07-01 21:05:49 <xelister> Vaati_: as it says on wikipage
2996 2011-07-01 21:05:53 <Vaati_> oh, ok
2997 2011-07-01 21:05:55 <Vaati_> sorry
2998 2011-07-01 21:05:58 <BlueMatt> Vaati_: why do you want to know?
2999 2011-07-01 21:06:04 <xelister> BlueMatt: bullshit and you know it. Srsly
3000 2011-07-01 21:06:10 <Vaati_> well, I'd like to discuss the purpose of bitcoin
3001 2011-07-01 21:06:19 <BlueMatt> then dont waste gavin's time
3002 2011-07-01 21:06:28 <BlueMatt> ask on #bitcoin
3003 2011-07-01 21:06:34 <OneFixt> Vaati_: are you a journalist?
3004 2011-07-01 21:06:35 <xelister> BlueMatt:   [23:03:34] <BlueMatt>  [Who would bet goard of inflating his fortune to MILIONS USD?]
3005 2011-07-01 21:06:38 <xelister> BlueMatt: uuuh, noone?
3006 2011-07-01 21:06:40 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: there are a thousand people on IRC who would be happy to talk to you about that.
3007 2011-07-01 21:06:42 <folklore> or maybe he's in here right now...among us
3008 2011-07-01 21:06:47 <folklore> talking, or idling
3009 2011-07-01 21:06:53 <xelister> folklore: maybe it is you!
3010 2011-07-01 21:06:58 <BlueMatt> xelister: he doesnt have to work on the project to keep his money
3011 2011-07-01 21:07:00 <folklore> haha nah
3012 2011-07-01 21:07:05 BlueMatt is now known as sat0shi
3013 2011-07-01 21:07:10 sat0shi is now known as BlueMatt
3014 2011-07-01 21:07:15 <BlueMatt> oops you werent supposed to see that
3015 2011-07-01 21:07:20 johnlockwood_ has joined
3016 2011-07-01 21:07:20 <folklore> lol
3017 2011-07-01 21:07:31 <b4epoche> "the paper" was published on my birthday ;-)
3018 2011-07-01 21:07:34 xelister is now known as staoshi
3019 2011-07-01 21:07:38 <folklore> how much is known about BlueMatt? he does have chan @
3020 2011-07-01 21:07:43 <staoshi> ok Im back
3021 2011-07-01 21:07:43 Pinion has joined
3022 2011-07-01 21:07:44 <staoshi> BlueMatt: op me
3023 2011-07-01 21:07:50 <folklore> lol
3024 2011-07-01 21:07:51 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3025 2011-07-01 21:07:55 <gmaxwell> xelister: Lots of people quick projects.  In my expirence OSS development has a two year halflife.
3026 2011-07-01 21:07:58 <BlueMatt> stalled: maybe if you had spelled your own name right
3027 2011-07-01 21:08:07 <BlueMatt> staoshi: ^
3028 2011-07-01 21:08:07 <staoshi> yea stalled shame on you
3029 2011-07-01 21:08:18 <Vaati_> well, its just that I have a real problem with  no definite purpose behind the bitcoin project -- what  are the hashes used for ?? simply solving blocks? that seems a little pointless.  Why not do something good with this project like use the generated hashes to help find a cure for cancer or help the seti project ?
3030 2011-07-01 21:08:43 <staoshi> Vaati_: we are doing something usefull, help to overthrow usafags world order ;)
3031 2011-07-01 21:08:48 <BlueMatt> that has been suggested many, many times
3032 2011-07-01 21:08:48 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: You ought to at least understand something before having a real problem with it.
3033 2011-07-01 21:08:48 * OneFixt faceslaps
3034 2011-07-01 21:08:50 nocreativenick1 has joined
3035 2011-07-01 21:08:53 <staoshi> or seriously: establish peoples owned currency
3036 2011-07-01 21:09:09 <BlueMatt> search the forums
3037 2011-07-01 21:09:09 <roconnor> sometimes I think bitcoin is simply an elaborate ploy for trying to find sha256 collisions ...
3038 2011-07-01 21:09:11 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: The hashing isn't pointless, its what provides the security against transaction reversal in bitcoin.
3039 2011-07-01 21:09:19 <staoshi> Vaati_: how about now you read like first 3 links about bitcoin, all this questions where covered year+ ago
3040 2011-07-01 21:09:23 <BlueMatt> roconnor: then its a poorly designed one
3041 2011-07-01 21:09:40 <roconnor> BlueMatt: oh?
3042 2011-07-01 21:09:50 <staoshi> roconnor: how fiding some random sha2256 collision achieves anything
3043 2011-07-01 21:09:57 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: I strongly suggest reading http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
3044 2011-07-01 21:09:57 <BlueMatt> roconnor: it only generates one useful hash per 10 mintes
3045 2011-07-01 21:10:05 * b4epoche still thinks Satoshi = Notch...
3046 2011-07-01 21:10:07 <Vaati_> gmaxwell: but why not also use the hashes for other things
3047 2011-07-01 21:10:09 <BlueMatt> roconnor: that seems slightly inefficient
3048 2011-07-01 21:10:14 <Vaati_> b4epoche: heh
3049 2011-07-01 21:10:21 <staoshi> Vaati_: like what and how
3050 2011-07-01 21:10:23 <BlueMatt> Vaati_: seriously, google
3051 2011-07-01 21:10:32 <roconnor> BlueMatt: Right, I guess all the other hashes are not logged.
3052 2011-07-01 21:10:37 <roconnor> good point
3053 2011-07-01 21:10:41 <folklore> gmaxwell pretty sure that pdf just gave overview of the currency system
3054 2011-07-01 21:10:49 <folklore> didn't really talk about technical, besides a lil math
3055 2011-07-01 21:10:57 <BlueMatt> Im sure somewhere, two miners have found the same hash
3056 2011-07-01 21:11:00 * b4epoche and still thinks bitcoin and minecraft will eventually merge
3057 2011-07-01 21:11:02 <BlueMatt> just not one that was in target
3058 2011-07-01 21:11:05 <gmaxwell> folklore: so you didn't even read it? Thats sad.
3059 2011-07-01 21:11:11 <roconnor> BlueMatt: I hope not.
3060 2011-07-01 21:11:14 <OneFixt> Vaati_: because it's difficult (if not impossible) to find another type of problem that will have the necessary properties to provide the proof-of-work needed for bitcoin
3061 2011-07-01 21:11:17 <gmaxwell> It explains how bitcoin's security is created by the proof of work system.
3062 2011-07-01 21:11:34 <BlueMatt> roconnor: whats network hash speed now? 10 thash or something
3063 2011-07-01 21:12:10 <b4epoche> also, the difficulty of solving the 'problem' has to be variable...
3064 2011-07-01 21:12:42 DukeOfURL has joined
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3066 2011-07-01 21:12:47 darin has joined
3067 2011-07-01 21:12:48 <gmaxwell> Vaati_: the work has to be memoryless, trivial to verify, contain no trapdoor that lets you do it faster. Its input and output have to be very small. And it has to be easy to adapt the hardness smoothly.
3068 2011-07-01 21:12:49 <folklore> gmaxwell that is the same pdf
3069 2011-07-01 21:12:55 <BlueMatt> the biggest problem with an alternate proof of work is that it has to be easy to verify
3070 2011-07-01 21:12:56 <b4epoche> although I suppose you could change the number of folded proteins required to mine a block
3071 2011-07-01 21:12:59 <folklore> the same very short pdf that gives an overview like I said
3072 2011-07-01 21:13:05 <folklore> so yes, I did read it
3073 2011-07-01 21:13:23 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: but its not easy to verify that
3074 2011-07-01 21:13:37 <b4epoche> not too hard
3075 2011-07-01 21:13:37 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: unless you also fold the same protein
3076 2011-07-01 21:13:40 <roconnor> BlueMatt: at this reate we will expect to find an (unrecorded) collision in 10^18 years I think.
3077 2011-07-01 21:13:43 <roconnor> *rate
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3080 2011-07-01 21:13:47 brunner has joined
3081 2011-07-01 21:13:50 <gmaxwell> folklore: Then why did you forget that it explains why the system uses a proof of work?
3082 2011-07-01 21:13:55 <b4epoche> you just need to confirm an energy minimum was found
3083 2011-07-01 21:14:09 <BlueMatt> roconnor: and if hash power keeps going up at an astounding rate?
3084 2011-07-01 21:14:21 <roconnor> BlueMatt: soo it will be only 10^8 years
3085 2011-07-01 21:14:23 <roconnor> *soon
3086 2011-07-01 21:14:26 <folklore> that still doesn't give the details he wants to know? and I didn't forget nor say it didn't talk about proof of work
3087 2011-07-01 21:14:33 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: too easily shortcutted, you could only validate a local minimum easily, and its trivial to cheat into one.
3088 2011-07-01 21:14:45 dbasch_ has joined
3089 2011-07-01 21:14:48 xelister has joined
3090 2011-07-01 21:14:59 <BlueMatt> roconnor: really, seems counterintuitive, birthday problem seems to say it would happen sooner, but I suppose 2^256 is pretty damn huge
3091 2011-07-01 21:15:07 dbasch_ is now known as dbasch
3092 2011-07-01 21:15:15 <roconnor> BlueMatt: I was using 2^128 in my calculations
3093 2011-07-01 21:15:15 AStove has quit ()
3094 2011-07-01 21:15:45 <b4epoche> well, gmaxwell, you could have a system where the lowest energy config wins
3095 2011-07-01 21:15:56 <BlueMatt> roconnor: well I didnt do any calculations, so you are probably right
3096 2011-07-01 21:15:58 <Choko> but it requires 2^128 memory also :D
3097 2011-07-01 21:16:06 <b4epoche> everyone reports their minimum
3098 2011-07-01 21:16:18 Vaati_ has left ()
3099 2011-07-01 21:16:34 Skouaq has joined
3100 2011-07-01 21:16:40 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: of course you also need to be able to general work independantly, and have it all have known difficulty.
3101 2011-07-01 21:16:48 <b4epoche> and I guess you'd split the reward if two people find the lowest
3102 2011-07-01 21:16:55 <roconnor> Choko: yep; As BlueMatt noted, no one is recording these hashes.
3103 2011-07-01 21:16:58 <gmaxwell> split reward?!
3104 2011-07-01 21:17:03 davro has joined
3105 2011-07-01 21:17:24 <b4epoche> s/general/generate ?
3106 2011-07-01 21:17:32 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: the proof of work is not for reward. It's for breaking the ties of confirming transactions. The reward stuff is just a side effect.
3107 2011-07-01 21:17:38 wardearia has quit (Changing host)
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3109 2011-07-01 21:17:44 <roconnor> BlueMatt: oh, do you have any idea why the double round of sha256.  I've been trying to find any motivation for it.
3110 2011-07-01 21:17:53 <gmaxwell> You can't 'split' the confirmed content of a block.
3111 2011-07-01 21:18:02 <b4epoche> well, there would be a problem of multiple people finding the same minimum
3112 2011-07-01 21:18:21 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: thats why everyone has to work on the different problems.
3113 2011-07-01 21:18:24 <shLONG> what the hell i still dont understand why I cannot move money using JSON RPC
3114 2011-07-01 21:18:41 <b4epoche> but I don't see that as being a show-stopper to the idea
3115 2011-07-01 21:18:51 davro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3116 2011-07-01 21:19:06 <BlueMatt> roconnor: no, not a clue, maybe if several of there is an attack against x of y sha rounds it would keep it harder? but...no doesnt make sense
3117 2011-07-01 21:19:07 <b4epoche> more of an implementation detail…  unless I'm misunderstanding something
3118 2011-07-01 21:19:08 <gmaxwell> (of course, you can't generate enough useful problems of this kind independantly either, folding random proteins wouldn't be helpful)
3119 2011-07-01 21:19:22 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yes, you're misunderstanding, I think?
3120 2011-07-01 21:19:28 Soak has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3121 2011-07-01 21:19:33 <BlueMatt> roconnor: just makes it a bit harder I suppose, maybe satoshi thought it would get too easy after a while...lol
3122 2011-07-01 21:19:55 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3123 2011-07-01 21:19:56 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: the purpose of the POW is not primarily to assign new bitcoins, the purpose is to make a unique transaction history.
3124 2011-07-01 21:20:10 <gmaxwell> So e.g. you couldn't have ties.
3125 2011-07-01 21:20:14 <Choko> BlueMatt: why did he the only use a 32bit nonce?
3126 2011-07-01 21:20:20 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3127 2011-07-01 21:20:39 <gmaxwell> Choko: because you want to update the merkle root often anyways.
3128 2011-07-01 21:20:40 <b4epoche> so, what's the chances of two miners solving the problem 'simultaneously'?
3129 2011-07-01 21:20:43 <BlueMatt> Choko: why do you need more, you can use coinbase
3130 2011-07-01 21:20:56 <gmaxwell> Choko: making it bigger would just encourage miners to not update the transaction set for longer timespans.
3131 2011-07-01 21:21:20 <roconnor> BlueMatt: It's strange, it doesn't make it very much harder; but it is also used for hashing transactions; which I don't think we even want to be made hard.
3132 2011-07-01 21:21:24 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: The input space to our hash is 2^640.
3133 2011-07-01 21:21:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: only sort of, its so easy to update merkle
3134 2011-07-01 21:21:46 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: there are many orders of magnitude fewer atoms in the universe...
3135 2011-07-01 21:21:58 <b4epoche> yes, I realize that...
3136 2011-07-01 21:22:00 <BlueMatt> roconnor: again, nfc really
3137 2011-07-01 21:22:02 danbri has joined
3138 2011-07-01 21:22:08 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: so basically none.
3139 2011-07-01 21:22:30 <roconnor> BlueMatt: heh, that's why I was specualting about the sha256 collisions, but you are right, people are not storing the failed hashes.
3140 2011-07-01 21:22:54 <BlueMatt> I think its all a ploy to find a sha256 of 00000..000
3141 2011-07-01 21:22:59 <b4epoche> okay, I guess I'm thinking of individual vs. individual instead of individual vs. network
3142 2011-07-01 21:23:30 <gmaxwell> roconnor: adding iterations to iterated hash functions is the normal and classic security parameter tweak.
3143 2011-07-01 21:23:31 <b4epoche> the Holy Grail, the '0 hash'
3144 2011-07-01 21:23:35 <roconnor> BlueMatt: there is a 37% chance that no block hashes to that. :)
3145 2011-07-01 21:23:50 <BlueMatt> roconnor: ok fine then
3146 2011-07-01 21:24:07 <BlueMatt> its a ploy to find the lowest hash possible
3147 2011-07-01 21:24:10 <roconnor> gmaxwell: really; cause iterating the hash would seem to decrease the effective hash lenght by 2/3rd of a bit (per iteration?)
3148 2011-07-01 21:24:25 <gmaxwell> roconnor: it's quite likely that when someone does come up with an attack on sha256 it still won't be useful on 2xsha256.
3149 2011-07-01 21:24:31 <gmaxwell> roconnor: meaningless reduction.
3150 2011-07-01 21:24:40 LightRider has quit ()
3151 2011-07-01 21:24:51 <gmaxwell> roconnor: you can't do 2^128 operations on anything pretty much.
3152 2011-07-01 21:25:04 <justmoon> maybe there is a treasure chest somewhere that only opens with a very low sha hash and satoshi wanted to know what's in it
3153 2011-07-01 21:25:08 <gmaxwell> (on just basic physical grounds)
3154 2011-07-01 21:25:18 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3155 2011-07-01 21:25:22 <justmoon> and in december he finally got a hash that opened it and in it was a man-eating plant
3156 2011-07-01 21:25:33 Skouaq is now known as Soak
3157 2011-07-01 21:25:35 f33x has quit (Quit: f33x)
3158 2011-07-01 21:25:37 <justmoon> or march or whenever he stopped answering mails
3159 2011-07-01 21:25:57 LanceRushing has joined
3160 2011-07-01 21:26:02 <BlueMatt> justmoon: yep, unbeknownst to us all sha was actually written in the 6th century bc and satoshi is actually the guy who proposed rjindaewawdga as sha
3161 2011-07-01 21:26:05 <b4epoche> hmm…  Satoshi = Osama?
3162 2011-07-01 21:26:14 <justmoon> BlueMatt, the plot thickens...
3163 2011-07-01 21:26:20 <BlueMatt> oh wait no rjasdfinal was aes
3164 2011-07-01 21:26:24 Xunie has joined
3165 2011-07-01 21:26:27 <BlueMatt> whatever sha's codename was before it was sha
3166 2011-07-01 21:26:32 <gmaxwell> roconnor: so the 2x means that we get early warning of weakness.
3167 2011-07-01 21:27:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sha2 didn't arise out of a public contest like AES (and SHA3 will)
3168 2011-07-01 21:27:17 <roconnor> gmaxwell: I think that is someone finds a collision with sha256, then it will necessarily work on 2xsha256.
3169 2011-07-01 21:27:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: really, I thought it always had, oh well shows how much I know
3170 2011-07-01 21:27:25 <BlueMatt> then satoshi works at the nsa
3171 2011-07-01 21:27:32 <roconnor> gmaxwell: once you collide on the first round, you will collide on the second round too.
3172 2011-07-01 21:27:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats what I thought, but are you sure?
3173 2011-07-01 21:27:44 <LanceRushing> ;;bc,calc 400
3174 2011-07-01 21:27:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400 Khps, given current difficulty of 1379223.4296725 , is 469 years, 31 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 6 minutes, and 50 seconds
3175 2011-07-01 21:28:02 <gmaxwell> roconnor: er. No.
3176 2011-07-01 21:28:06 <roconnor> oh?
3177 2011-07-01 21:28:16 <BlueMatt> roconnor: no hes right on the principal
3178 2011-07-01 21:28:18 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3179 2011-07-01 21:28:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: are you sure about that, what about all the stuff that happens before/after the actual rounds?
3180 2011-07-01 21:28:47 <roconnor> if sha256(a) = sha256(b), then sha256(sha256(a)) = sha256(sha256(b)) as well.
3181 2011-07-01 21:28:53 <b4epoche> you don't collide on the rehash?
3182 2011-07-01 21:28:57 <gmaxwell> Well okay, if you just mean a normal collission then yes, but that doesn't hurt bitcoin.
3183 2011-07-01 21:29:11 <b4epoche> okay…  that makes more sense
3184 2011-07-01 21:29:26 <roconnor> ah
3185 2011-07-01 21:30:18 lum is now known as klakU
3186 2011-07-01 21:30:28 <gmaxwell> E.g. bitcoin would be hurt if you can find an X such that sha256(sha256(X))=Y where Y is a value already in use someplace in bitcoin. or if you can calculate candidate X for sha256^2(Y) very easily.
3187 2011-07-01 21:30:39 <gmaxwell> er for sha256^2(X)
3188 2011-07-01 21:31:23 <edcba> s/easily/trivially/
3189 2011-07-01 21:32:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, but my question stands, though more rounds are more secure, does 2 sha256s still have the same properties through the stuff that happens before/after the rounds?
3190 2011-07-01 21:32:21 <BlueMatt> though I know little about sha so its probably a stupid questions
3191 2011-07-01 21:32:22 <edcba> if you can do it in 2**50 steps it would just increase difficulty
3192 2011-07-01 21:32:29 <gmaxwell> edcba: well, I'm not even talking about mining. Even if you could get a 10,000 fold speedup on it, eveyone else would eventually get the same one.
3193 2011-07-01 21:32:41 darkskiez has joined
3194 2011-07-01 21:32:47 <BlueMatt> edcba: transactions use double sha so...
3195 2011-07-01 21:32:56 <edcba> hmm
3196 2011-07-01 21:32:58 <BlueMatt> and you sign the double sha
3197 2011-07-01 21:33:26 <edcba> hopefully we'll see it quite soon then :)
3198 2011-07-01 21:33:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, if you go look at attacks on iterated hash functions they all are very round dependant. E.g. there are varrious attacks on reduced round versions: http://eprint.iacr.org/2009/477.pdf
3199 2011-07-01 21:33:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, I know that
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3202 2011-07-01 21:34:06 MartianW has joined
3203 2011-07-01 21:34:14 <BlueMatt> my question is though more rounds would be better, what about the stuff that happens between the rounds?
3204 2011-07-01 21:35:26 <BlueMatt> does that result in less strength from sheer number of rounds
3205 2011-07-01 21:36:33 <gmaxwell> No clue, the devil is in the details of course, SHA2 has a very minimal pre-step. (the initial expansion) and no post step
3206 2011-07-01 21:37:44 * BlueMatt knows little about sha so...probably but afaik neither of us are cryptographers so...
3207 2011-07-01 21:38:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: sha2 seems like crap to me, bcrypt would be better
3208 2011-07-01 21:38:52 <jrmithdobbs> (crap compared to alternatives)
3209 2011-07-01 21:39:15 <BlueMatt> its simpler, which is much, much nicer
3210 2011-07-01 21:39:29 <BlueMatt> and appears to be rated higher by cryptographers
3211 2011-07-01 21:39:37 <gmaxwell> Hey, I won a state science fair on a weak-key attack on idea. Many a moon ago!  but yea, I'm not a crytpgrapher.
3212 2011-07-01 21:39:43 <jrmithdobbs> which sha2 variant? 256/224 or 512/384?
3213 2011-07-01 21:39:56 MartianW has left ("Bye all.")
3214 2011-07-01 21:40:32 <jrmithdobbs> it's definitely simpler than bcrypt/scrypt to implement but considering the last stab at a password hash the sha guys made (sha1) i don't have much faith
3215 2011-07-01 21:41:02 <BlueMatt> only time will tell
3216 2011-07-01 21:41:06 <jrmithdobbs> ya
3217 2011-07-01 21:41:30 dobalina has quit ()
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3219 2011-07-01 21:41:30 <Choko> jrmithdobbs: sha256
3220 2011-07-01 21:41:37 <roconnor> jrmithdobbs: have you used scrypt. I was looking at it recently.
3221 2011-07-01 21:41:47 <gmaxwell> Well, it's not like sha256 is new.. it's been attacked for a long time.
3222 2011-07-01 21:41:53 DukeOfURL has joined
3223 2011-07-01 21:41:56 sipa has joined
3224 2011-07-01 21:42:05 <jrmithdobbs> but i'm pretty skeptical all around about that stuff because, you know, we live in a world where md5 has been found to have collisions and can be parallelized to the point of being worthless on commodity hardware
3225 2011-07-01 21:42:08 <gmaxwell> (something like a decade)
3226 2011-07-01 21:42:20 <jrmithdobbs> and who saw that happening so quickly?
3227 2011-07-01 21:42:41 <gmaxwell> Hm? MD5's attacks weren't sudden at all.
3228 2011-07-01 21:42:45 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: i've been playing with/testing with it
3229 2011-07-01 21:42:58 klakU is now known as kfkf
3230 2011-07-01 21:43:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: not sudden but once they started happening they just kept coming and coming at an alarming pace
3231 2011-07-01 21:43:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats how it works.
3232 2011-07-01 21:43:33 <jrmithdobbs> and the 'who saw that happening so quickly?' part was more to the parallellized on commodity hardware bit
3233 2011-07-01 21:43:47 <roconnor> aren't these hashes designed to be fast?
3234 2011-07-01 21:43:50 <BlueMatt> roconnor: scrypt hasnt been tested enough for it to really be used on bitcoin...but in the future, when more cryptographers have had time with it...maybe so
3235 2011-07-01 21:43:53 <jrmithdobbs> noone saw *that* coming as fast as it did
3236 2011-07-01 21:44:02 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i agree with that for now
3237 2011-07-01 21:44:02 <sipa> actually, i've been reading up about scrypt
3238 2011-07-01 21:44:04 <roconnor> BlueMatt: ya, but maybe for mt.gox ...
3239 2011-07-01 21:44:11 <sipa> i must say i like it
3240 2011-07-01 21:44:18 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r119 /branches/peergroup: Peer groups
3241 2011-07-01 21:44:20 <BlueMatt> roconnor: why would mtgox be different?
3242 2011-07-01 21:44:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya it's pretty goddamned cool i have to say
3243 2011-07-01 21:44:37 magn3ts has joined
3244 2011-07-01 21:44:42 <roconnor> BlueMatt: becuase, I'm told, you don't want fast hashes for hashing passwords.
3245 2011-07-01 21:44:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, I agree, its really cool, but it still hasnt been tested enough
3246 2011-07-01 21:44:56 puhc has joined
3247 2011-07-01 21:45:01 kfkf is now known as lumos
3248 2011-07-01 21:45:03 <roconnor> but fash hashes for looking up transactions would be nice.
3249 2011-07-01 21:45:07 <BlueMatt> roconnor: of course, but mtgox uses tripple sha256 now so...
3250 2011-07-01 21:45:17 <BlueMatt> roconnor: but it does need to be decently fast
3251 2011-07-01 21:45:27 <sipa> sha512 even
3252 2011-07-01 21:45:48 <BlueMatt> roconnor: it is a webserver after all, you cant use 100% cpu for a while just to log someone in on a webserver
3253 2011-07-01 21:46:00 sabalaba has joined
3254 2011-07-01 21:46:02 <sipa> well, scrypt it does use pbkdf2 before and after the memory-hard part, so i guess it's pretty safe even if a leak in the memory-hard part is found
3255 2011-07-01 21:46:02 <roconnor> I thought the point was to make slow hashes to slow down the rainbow-tablers
3256 2011-07-01 21:46:16 <roconnor> BlueMatt: I guess that is true
3257 2011-07-01 21:46:17 <sipa> that said, i wouldn't make it default in bitcoin
3258 2011-07-01 21:46:22 <gmaxwell> roconnor: rainbow tablers are slaughtered by salt.
3259 2011-07-01 21:46:25 <jgarzik> wow
3260 2011-07-01 21:46:30 <Mad7Scientist> what should I set the transaction fee to?
3261 2011-07-01 21:46:32 <jgarzik> quite a few blocks headed towards 100k in size
3262 2011-07-01 21:46:35 <jgarzik> impressive
3263 2011-07-01 21:46:38 <sipa> but maybe optional support for it in some future version would be nice
3264 2011-07-01 21:46:42 <edcba> slow hashes avoid bruteforce
3265 2011-07-01 21:46:46 <roconnor> gmaxwell: then why bother with iterated hashing?
3266 2011-07-01 21:46:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's sad how effective rainbow tables are considering we've had salted password hashes since the 70s
3267 2011-07-01 21:46:59 <BlueMatt> roconnor: hashing is the same in this case as it is for mtgox, it has to be reasonably hard, but not too hard
3268 2011-07-01 21:47:09 <gmaxwell> roconnor: the purpose of scrypt is to prevent someone from doing a fpga brute force which is very fast compared to you cpu and makes your strenghtening pointless.
3269 2011-07-01 21:47:11 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: without iterating md5 has some workable attack vectors right now, for instance
3270 2011-07-01 21:47:18 sanchaz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3271 2011-07-01 21:47:27 <gmaxwell> roconnor: to stop brute force.
3272 2011-07-01 21:47:27 <sipa> roconnor: by the way, double-sha256 has less than 255.3 bits of entropy left
3273 2011-07-01 21:47:27 <roconnor> BlueMatt: why does hashing (for transactions) in bitcoin need to be reasonably hard?
3274 2011-07-01 21:47:48 <sipa> roconnor: since the remaining possibilities are not uniform
3275 2011-07-01 21:47:50 <BlueMatt> roconnor: because if it isnt, I can make a transaction with the same hash and a different output (to me)
3276 2011-07-01 21:47:57 <copumpkin> HASKELL
3277 2011-07-01 21:47:59 <BlueMatt> roconnor: and the sig would still be valid
3278 2011-07-01 21:48:10 <sipa> it's around 255.17 bits left, but that was experimentally determined, using some extrapolation
3279 2011-07-01 21:48:31 <roconnor> sipa: is that due to 2^256 not being infinity?
3280 2011-07-01 21:48:46 <sipa> roconnor: i guess
3281 2011-07-01 21:48:53 <jrmithdobbs> roconnor: the iterations do two things, make bruteforce harder and protect at least somewhat against certain hash weaknesses
3282 2011-07-01 21:48:56 <gmaxwell> it's probably a lot less than that, due to internal cancellations in the hash function.
3283 2011-07-01 21:49:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: sure, sha still has structure
3284 2011-07-01 21:49:33 <sipa> i was indeed talking about a theoretically perfect hash function applied twice
3285 2011-07-01 21:49:47 <jrmithdobbs> scrypt is definitely promising though
3286 2011-07-01 21:50:08 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the hardening function is by far not the biggest weakness ofthe wallet cryto now whough.
3287 2011-07-01 21:50:16 <jrmithdobbs> right now i trust bcrypt the most though it's memory reqs are low enough that it can be parallelized with modern fpgas now
3288 2011-07-01 21:50:26 <roconnor> jrmithdobbs: right, but we don't need to make bruteforce harder for bitcoin transactions.  The thing being hashed isn't a secret.
3289 2011-07-01 21:50:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: for example, you end up with the unencrypted data on disk for a new wallet... :(
3290 2011-07-01 21:50:28 <sipa> jgarzik: any progress with 0.3.24?
3291 2011-07-01 21:50:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what
3292 2011-07-01 21:50:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what how
3293 2011-07-01 21:50:52 <jgarzik> sipa: seemed from the discussion that featureset was not fully nailed down?
3294 2011-07-01 21:51:05 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: make a new wallet. It's not born encryted. keys get written to disk.  encrypt it, keys are replaced with encryted ones.
3295 2011-07-01 21:51:08 <sipa> jgarzik: only upnp isn't sure, i guess
3296 2011-07-01 21:51:09 * gmaxwell flues
3297 2011-07-01 21:51:10 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: seems like everyone is discussing why they agree with propsed set, not debating
3298 2011-07-01 21:51:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was thinking about that, we could add some memory extension trick used by luks
3299 2011-07-01 21:51:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: why isn't it born encrypted?!
3300 2011-07-01 21:51:27 <roconnor> copumpkin: I'm working on it
3301 2011-07-01 21:51:28 <jrmithdobbs> i guess that's more of a bluematt question
3302 2011-07-01 21:51:31 <copumpkin> :)
3303 2011-07-01 21:51:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: that was my impression, Gavin did not 'ack' the upnp
3304 2011-07-01 21:51:48 <sipa> indeed
3305 2011-07-01 21:52:03 <roconnor> copumpkin: Do you want me to publish my darcs repo so you can watch the code slowly trickle in?
3306 2011-07-01 21:52:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok, so Ill specifically ask for acks and we can move on then?
3307 2011-07-01 21:52:17 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: because users who are just starting out are likely to not care about their password and maybe lose it in the future
3308 2011-07-01 21:52:35 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: but by the time they care to encrypt, they likely have enough btc to care about remembering the pass
3309 2011-07-01 21:52:38 <sipa> it technically does not need a password to be encrypted
3310 2011-07-01 21:53:00 <sipa> only the masterkey will be available from the file directly
3311 2011-07-01 21:53:02 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but now the keys may exist in "deleted" areas of their hd that are easy to scrape for
3312 2011-07-01 21:53:07 <sipa> which is only moving the problem
3313 2011-07-01 21:53:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok smartypants sorry, doesnt technically need a password, same principal though
3314 2011-07-01 21:53:23 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: its a tradeoff
3315 2011-07-01 21:53:43 yebyen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3316 2011-07-01 21:53:44 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r4973174 / (src/main.cpp src/net.cpp src/net.h):
3317 2011-07-01 21:53:44 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Limit response to getblocks to half of output buffer size
3318 2011-07-01 21:53:44 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Introduce SendBufferSize() and ReceiveBufferSize(), and limit
3319 2011-07-01 21:53:44 <CIA-103> bitcoin: the blocks sent as response to the "getblocks" message to
3320 2011-07-01 21:53:44 <CIA-103> bitcoin: half of the active send buffer size. - http://bit.ly/keoV6O
3321 2011-07-01 21:53:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r7fbeca0 / (src/main.cpp src/net.cpp src/net.h):
3322 2011-07-01 21:53:46 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #369 from sipa/limitblocksend
3323 2011-07-01 21:53:46 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Limit size of response to getblocks - http://bit.ly/iTNBoA
3324 2011-07-01 21:54:03 <sipa> but you could combine that with the storage extension trick
3325 2011-07-01 21:54:19 <sipa> which would only be meaningful on not too recent filesystems
3326 2011-07-01 21:54:26 <sipa> as data is rarely really overwritten there
3327 2011-07-01 21:55:12 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: why not always encrypt them and have the default password empty
3328 2011-07-01 21:55:37 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: because thats just about the same, as the master key would still be on disk, unencrypted?
3329 2011-07-01 21:55:45 <sipa> indeed
3330 2011-07-01 21:55:53 <jrmithdobbs> one key is harder to find in the 'empty' area than 100 though
3331 2011-07-01 21:56:04 <sipa> not sure about that
3332 2011-07-01 21:56:15 <sipa> but one single key is more 'contained'
3333 2011-07-01 21:56:25 <BlueMatt> true, but not for the same reason, mostly because the key has no constant bits, unencrypted privkeys do
3334 2011-07-01 21:56:33 <jrmithdobbs> right
3335 2011-07-01 21:56:34 <jgarzik> speaking of storage
3336 2011-07-01 21:56:41 <jgarzik> I want to delete address and block index maps, in RAM
3337 2011-07-01 21:56:47 <jgarzik> no need, since db caches
3338 2011-07-01 21:56:56 <BlueMatt> not hard to do
3339 2011-07-01 21:57:07 <BlueMatt> thanks to sipa's forward-thinking implementations
3340 2011-07-01 21:57:33 <sipa> jgarzik: first step: drop mapPubKeys, and make mapKeys/GetPrivKey/HaveKey work on addresses instead of pubkeys
3341 2011-07-01 21:57:53 <jgarzik> sipa: network addresses, not bitcoin addresses
3342 2011-07-01 21:57:59 <sipa> oh, ok
3343 2011-07-01 21:58:07 <sipa> that's probably easier
3344 2011-07-01 21:58:11 <jgarzik> yep
3345 2011-07-01 21:58:13 <BlueMatt> oh, those addresses
3346 2011-07-01 21:58:17 <jgarzik> much faster startup time
3347 2011-07-01 21:59:13 gjs278 has joined
3348 2011-07-01 22:00:24 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r362efb2 / src/init.cpp : Enable DNS seeding by default. - http://bit.ly/kw4BK1
3349 2011-07-01 22:00:35 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i think a bigger startup speed increase would come from keeping addr.dat pruned
3350 2011-07-01 22:00:43 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: that needs to happen too, yes
3351 2011-07-01 22:00:59 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: ok, is everything now upstream for 0.3.24 except upnp?
3352 2011-07-01 22:01:12 <sipa> jgarzik: i think so
3353 2011-07-01 22:01:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: and dnsseed default
3354 2011-07-01 22:01:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: scroll up :)
3355 2011-07-01 22:01:33 <BlueMatt> thats not dnsseed
3356 2011-07-01 22:01:35 MC1984 has joined
3357 2011-07-01 22:01:45 <sipa> ?
3358 2011-07-01 22:01:57 <BlueMatt> hm, it didnt post it
3359 2011-07-01 22:02:00 <BlueMatt> but its in github
3360 2011-07-01 22:02:08 <BlueMatt> oh its right there
3361 2011-07-01 22:02:10 <BlueMatt> Im blind
3362 2011-07-01 22:02:28 <jrmithdobbs> does that patch disable irc by default too?
3363 2011-07-01 22:02:36 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no
3364 2011-07-01 22:02:43 <BlueMatt> however, the way the dnsseeding is currently done, do we not use dnsseed addresses before addr.dat ones?
3365 2011-07-01 22:02:55 <BlueMatt> (which is probably wrong)
3366 2011-07-01 22:04:11 <sipa> jgarzik: you're going to fork 0.3.23 now, and cherry-pick the chosen commits from master into it?
3367 2011-07-01 22:04:16 lumos has left ("Leaving")
3368 2011-07-01 22:04:30 <makomk> gmaxwell: and I've just written a tool that could potentially be used to find any residual copies of the unencrypted private keys. Whoops.
3369 2011-07-01 22:04:31 <shLONG> guys this is really doing my nut in
3370 2011-07-01 22:04:51 * makomk whistles and tries to look innocent...
3371 2011-07-01 22:04:51 <shLONG> any idea why a local bitcoin transfer using JSON-RPC in PHP move() wouldent work?
3372 2011-07-01 22:05:28 <sipa> what is php move() ?
3373 2011-07-01 22:05:43 <shLONG> move() to transfer bitcoins form account to account
3374 2011-07-01 22:05:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: in this case I believe hes talking about a bitcoin library
3375 2011-07-01 22:05:53 Nexus7 has joined
3376 2011-07-01 22:06:10 <sipa> ah
3377 2011-07-01 22:06:12 <shLONG> JSON RPC
3378 2011-07-01 22:06:13 <roconnor> copumpkin: (:[])
3379 2011-07-01 22:06:24 <BlueMatt> ok, request-for-acks posted, can we get responses jgarzik tcatm sipa gavinandresen?
3380 2011-07-01 22:06:25 <shLONG> standard bitcoin deamon interface for PHP
3381 2011-07-01 22:06:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ^
3382 2011-07-01 22:06:38 <BlueMatt> anyone else^
3383 2011-07-01 22:07:10 <jrmithdobbs> lets see if i can respond to the right email from my phone this time and not break the thread
3384 2011-07-01 22:07:14 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3385 2011-07-01 22:07:23 _ape has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3386 2011-07-01 22:07:41 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3387 2011-07-01 22:08:11 <gavinandresen> upnp ack
3388 2011-07-01 22:08:35 <sipa> upnp ack
3389 2011-07-01 22:09:14 <BlueMatt> upnp ack, 0.3.24 as-stated ack
3390 2011-07-01 22:09:39 <sipa> also, which other commits already in master can go into 0.3.24?
3391 2011-07-01 22:09:53 Maged has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3392 2011-07-01 22:09:55 <sipa> fix missing includes for boost 1.46?
3393 2011-07-01 22:10:04 MC1984 has joined
3394 2011-07-01 22:10:07 <sipa> update translations and remove obsolete translations?
3395 2011-07-01 22:10:17 <shLONG> right i cant be bothered with this JSON RPC PHP bullshit anymore
3396 2011-07-01 22:10:21 <sipa> minor updates to doc/release-process.txt
3397 2011-07-01 22:10:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: not the second
3398 2011-07-01 22:10:32 <jrmithdobbs> shLONG: there's your problem: php
3399 2011-07-01 22:10:35 <shLONG> is it ethical for me to take the bitcoin daemon and just modify that to do my bidding?
3400 2011-07-01 22:10:47 <BlueMatt> shLONG: its floss, of course
3401 2011-07-01 22:10:51 Strom- has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3402 2011-07-01 22:10:55 <sipa> shLONG: sure is, just know what you're doing
3403 2011-07-01 22:10:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: the first and third look good
3404 2011-07-01 22:10:59 Nexus7 has quit ()
3405 2011-07-01 22:11:04 germanMNY has joined
3406 2011-07-01 22:11:06 <jrmithdobbs> shLONG: it's easier (and faster) than using rpc in most cases
3407 2011-07-01 22:11:08 <jrmithdobbs> sadly
3408 2011-07-01 22:11:39 <jrmithdobbs> it's not the rpc implementations' fault tho it's the specific calls it hooks into :(
3409 2011-07-01 22:11:48 * BlueMatt just keeps looking at his two google+ invites that he cant accept and scowling
3410 2011-07-01 22:12:00 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: haha, i've been refreshing all day
3411 2011-07-01 22:12:16 * sipa admits he tried google+
3412 2011-07-01 22:12:23 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: Ive got invites if you want one when they let new people with invites join...but they disabled that just before I got my invites
3413 2011-07-01 22:12:26 Strom has joined
3414 2011-07-01 22:12:37 <sipa> really?
3415 2011-07-01 22:12:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i have a working link someone sent me
3416 2011-07-01 22:12:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i got told about someone hangin out
3417 2011-07-01 22:12:53 <jrmithdobbs> just as good as an invite
3418 2011-07-01 22:12:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: as of a day ago or so according to the reports Ive read
3419 2011-07-01 22:13:05 <sipa> didn't have any problems joining or inviting others
3420 2011-07-01 22:13:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: when?
3421 2011-07-01 22:13:19 <sipa> around 12h ago
3422 2011-07-01 22:13:23 <BlueMatt> wtf?
3423 2011-07-01 22:13:28 <jrmithdobbs> the thing looks stupid to me but if they're going to add a gawdy grey bars to every google property at least make them do something goddamn it
3424 2011-07-01 22:13:29 <sipa> i'll send you one
3425 2011-07-01 22:13:30 <copumpkin> roconnor: yes please! sorry, was on the phone
3426 2011-07-01 22:13:33 <BlueMatt> can you mention me on something then: facebook@bluematt.me
3427 2011-07-01 22:13:41 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3428 2011-07-01 22:13:48 Maged has joined
3429 2011-07-01 22:13:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's random
3430 2011-07-01 22:14:00 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: think geo based
3431 2011-07-01 22:14:01 <jrmithdobbs> partially
3432 2011-07-01 22:14:06 briareus has joined
3433 2011-07-01 22:14:07 jav__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
3434 2011-07-01 22:14:14 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
3435 2011-07-01 22:14:18 <BlueMatt> damn, maybe I should try using crazy proxies in *stan or something then
3436 2011-07-01 22:15:07 torsthaldo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3437 2011-07-01 22:15:32 <shLONG> BlueMatt: what does flloss mean btw?
3438 2011-07-01 22:15:49 <BlueMatt> shLONG: free libre open source software
3439 2011-07-01 22:16:12 <jrmithdobbs> shLONG: it means rms is a whiney fucktard and foss isn't a good enough term for him
3440 2011-07-01 22:16:19 * jrmithdobbs </end rms rant.....for now>
3441 2011-07-01 22:16:40 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yes he is, but why fight it?
3442 2011-07-01 22:16:48 <BlueMatt> just not worth it
3443 2011-07-01 22:17:11 <jrmithdobbs> no i said
3444 2011-07-01 22:17:13 * jrmithdobbs </end rms rant.....for now>
3445 2011-07-01 22:17:16 <jrmithdobbs> don't provoke me
3446 2011-07-01 22:17:17 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
3447 2011-07-01 22:17:28 <BlueMatt> lol ok
3448 2011-07-01 22:18:55 <jrmithdobbs> where's the clear cookies button in chrome
3449 2011-07-01 22:19:09 <jrmithdobbs> oh there it is
3450 2011-07-01 22:19:30 <jrmithdobbs> worst config ui / menu option names ever
3451 2011-07-01 22:19:32 ShadeS has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3452 2011-07-01 22:19:45 <BlueMatt> meh, they like thinking they are all cool and stuff
3453 2011-07-01 22:19:53 abragin has quit ()
3454 2011-07-01 22:20:23 _ape has joined
3455 2011-07-01 22:20:24 <gavinandresen> shLONG: you're probably passing "0.0" instead of float("0.0") to your JSON library.
3456 2011-07-01 22:20:31 scott` has joined
3457 2011-07-01 22:20:45 <BlueMatt> arg, well my invite still isnt working, can someone send me anoter? facebook@bluematt.me
3458 2011-07-01 22:20:58 scott` is now known as Guest84257
3459 2011-07-01 22:21:08 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: if one isn't working it wont work if they send you another
3460 2011-07-01 22:21:11 * ius remembers wave
3461 2011-07-01 22:21:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: like i said, it's kinda random
3462 2011-07-01 22:21:28 <nanotube> jrmithdobbs: microsoft office's "change for the sake of change, just so users think they got something cool with this latest upgrade that didn't really do anything" has come to the browser field. :)
3463 2011-07-01 22:21:32 <sipa> what about the check that the passed -datadir exist?
3464 2011-07-01 22:21:47 <jrmithdobbs> ius: you'd think they'd stop invite-limiting "social" services after that fiasco
3465 2011-07-01 22:21:47 * BlueMatt is hoping they give you one if multiple people invite you->hey you are more likely to use it if you have several friends
3466 2011-07-01 22:21:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes
3467 2011-07-01 22:21:54 <nanotube> sipa: shouldn't it just mkdir -p on anything that's passed to -datadir?
3468 2011-07-01 22:21:54 <jrmithdobbs> ius: tho, that was a fiasco for more reasons than that
3469 2011-07-01 22:22:09 <jrmithdobbs> nanotube: NON
3470 2011-07-01 22:22:13 <jrmithdobbs> NONONONO
3471 2011-07-01 22:22:29 <BlueMatt> nanotube: and when I mistype the first of 20 folders in the path?
3472 2011-07-01 22:22:39 <BlueMatt> now Im on the wrong drive for my wallet...
3473 2011-07-01 22:22:51 <sipa> jgarzik: so, cherry-pick: eeac87, 926e14, ed2c01, ecd3e7, f03c31, 497317, 362efb ?
3474 2011-07-01 22:22:55 <sipa> wow, long list
3475 2011-07-01 22:23:07 <jrmithdobbs> you would destroy my laptop fs structure if you did that because my datadir is symlinked to an encrypted volume and that would create the directory where said encrypted would be if it's not mounted
3476 2011-07-01 22:23:08 <nanotube> BlueMatt: well then... you shouldn't mistype. or do you suggest that if i want to place my datadir in some fresh place, i first have to do mkdir -p myself?
3477 2011-07-01 22:23:24 <BlueMatt> nanotube: yes, like just about every other program on earth
3478 2011-07-01 22:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> nanotube: yes, that should be the required process because there's too many corner cases (like the one i just mentioned) that cause bad things to happen
3479 2011-07-01 22:23:48 <jrmithdobbs> not just bad but unexepected
3480 2011-07-01 22:23:50 <nanotube> BlueMatt: every other program except for mkdir -p itself, you mean ? hehe
3481 2011-07-01 22:23:55 <BlueMatt> well, yes
3482 2011-07-01 22:24:27 <nanotube> $mkdir -p /some/path/here : Error: target path does not exist, try mkdir -p
3483 2011-07-01 22:24:28 <nanotube> hehe
3484 2011-07-01 22:24:35 <jrmithdobbs> but why is there a pull to check that the dir exists?
3485 2011-07-01 22:24:42 <jrmithdobbs> that just introduces a race condition
3486 2011-07-01 22:24:42 <nanotube> jrmithdobbs: BlueMatt mm well ok then. :)
3487 2011-07-01 22:24:54 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no?
3488 2011-07-01 22:24:57 <jrmithdobbs> try to open files and fail out
3489 2011-07-01 22:25:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes.
3490 2011-07-01 22:25:17 <BlueMatt> if its done before any other threads are open, how can it race?
3491 2011-07-01 22:25:26 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not necessarily a *useful* one, but it creates a race condition
3492 2011-07-01 22:25:37 <jrmithdobbs> (useful from an exploiting standpoint)
3493 2011-07-01 22:25:51 <sipa> it is a race condition, sure
3494 2011-07-01 22:26:37 Sang has joined
3495 2011-07-01 22:26:41 <Sang> Anyone have suggestions on a 3rd party company that does penetration testing?
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3497 2011-07-01 22:27:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: got my g+ message?
3498 2011-07-01 22:27:02 eureka^ has joined
3499 2011-07-01 22:27:05 <BlueMatt> Sang: why ask here?
3500 2011-07-01 22:27:17 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: create dir, start bitcoin -datadir=dir, rmdir dir symlink d/etc/shit dir; .... run in loop
3501 2011-07-01 22:27:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: hm, no
3502 2011-07-01 22:27:20 <jrmithdobbs> it's a race condition
3503 2011-07-01 22:27:25 <Sang> Bluematt: Because the bitcoin community seems to be smart techies :-)
3504 2011-07-01 22:27:34 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ok yes, but not something that can be particularly bad
3505 2011-07-01 22:27:47 <BlueMatt> Sang: as does google and the whole internet, but as you wish
3506 2011-07-01 22:28:25 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: why is this a problem - most programs will behave strangelly if you at same time start them and destroy&recreate their datadir
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3508 2011-07-01 22:28:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not in default config no, but say someone does something stupid like setuid/gid bitcoin:bitcoin the binary
3509 2011-07-01 22:28:46 <Sang> BlueMatt: Not getting any good leads from other sources so im asking here also :-)
3510 2011-07-01 22:29:05 <xelister> Sang: I can do penetration testing but pics first
3511 2011-07-01 22:29:05 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: this has bitten other software in the ass before
3512 2011-07-01 22:29:19 <jrmithdobbs> it's better to just try to open the files you want and error out if that fails
3513 2011-07-01 22:29:28 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well you shouldnt be setuiding bitcoin in the first place
3514 2011-07-01 22:29:30 <jrmithdobbs> don't ask if you can do just try and do it and handle the errors
3515 2011-07-01 22:29:32 <BlueMatt> xelister: now thats just wrong
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3517 2011-07-01 22:30:15 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: doesn't mean you should add code that will make weird situations like that break worse
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3519 2011-07-01 22:30:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i can think of a couple reasons to do that that aren't stupid and would be valid in certain scenarios
3520 2011-07-01 22:30:40 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: the thing is that the only thing it does is give a nicer error message
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3524 2011-07-01 22:31:05 <sipa> see issue 337
3525 2011-07-01 22:31:07 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I prefer a nice error message than freaking out in this case
3526 2011-07-01 22:31:27 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't freak out just gives an error about opening a file (last time i did it)
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3529 2011-07-01 22:32:54 <jrmithdobbs> i think the current behaviour is correct
3530 2011-07-01 22:33:16 <jrmithdobbs> it's how most unix software handles it.
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3532 2011-07-01 22:33:39 <sipa> an unreadable message about an uncaught exception is never the correct response to simply a wrong command-line argument
3533 2011-07-01 22:33:40 <BlueMatt> no, it doesnt give an error if the directory above datadir doesnt exist
3534 2011-07-01 22:33:43 <jrmithdobbs> except for the creating the directory part
3535 2011-07-01 22:34:37 <jrmithdobbs> "If the file does not exist, create it with owner-readable-only file permissions." comes before the exception though?
3536 2011-07-01 22:35:44 <jrmithdobbs> err could have sworn it did when i was doing test-in-a-box stuff ... it's not doing it on current head tho
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3542 2011-07-01 22:39:58 <jrmithdobbs> the current error messages seem reasonable to me
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3554 2011-07-01 22:53:01 * b4epoche_is_out thinks all error messages should be hashed
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3561 2011-07-01 22:56:27 <BlueMatt> in other news: setting the upnp default for just bitcoin vs bitcoind appears to be near impossible thanks to the absolutely terrible way make does target-specific variables...I mean seriously, wtf?
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3564 2011-07-01 22:57:35 <Choko> why not just use udp holepunching?
3565 2011-07-01 22:57:49 <BlueMatt> seriously? read logs/google/the forums
3566 2011-07-01 22:58:20 Diablo-D3 has joined
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3568 2011-07-01 22:59:57 <b4epoche_> someone needs to consolidate discussions here and make a FAQ
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3571 2011-07-01 23:01:17 <Choko> BlueMatt: google desnt give clues why you think it's a bad idea
3572 2011-07-01 23:01:34 <BlueMatt> because udp is a not a solution for bitcoin
3573 2011-07-01 23:02:35 nhodges has joined
3574 2011-07-01 23:02:56 <Choko> so if you had a stream protocol it would be okay ?
3575 2011-07-01 23:03:03 <b4epoche_> udp site:bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev
3576 2011-07-01 23:03:15 <b4epoche_> Google that
3577 2011-07-01 23:03:45 <b4epoche_> or http://tinyurl.com/3e7l9wr
3578 2011-07-01 23:04:38 <b4epoche_> well, the Friday evening selloff has started...  West Coast miners dumping their winnings
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3584 2011-07-01 23:11:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: do you want translation-oriented stuff in 0.3.24?
3585 2011-07-01 23:11:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: ^
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3589 2011-07-01 23:17:11 <sytse> BlueMatt: GNU make is so terrible.. netbsd make is much better IMHO (but, mutually incompatible, it's virtually impossible to write good makefiles that work in both, that can only be done using extremely complicated and ugly trickery)
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3592 2011-07-01 23:24:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: sure
3593 2011-07-01 23:25:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: not compiling those translations was my brown paper bag bug of 0.3.23 (or was is .22?)
3594 2011-07-01 23:25:14 <BlueMatt> ok since you wrote the manpage, why is git shortlog showing me all commits when I do git shortlog (commit head of 0.3.23)
3595 2011-07-01 23:25:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: translations and easy obvious bugfixes are fine
3596 2011-07-01 23:25:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: git shortlog --no-merges v0.3.23..
3597 2011-07-01 23:25:56 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3598 2011-07-01 23:26:06 <BlueMatt> ok, so whats the significance of the two ..s?
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3604 2011-07-01 23:29:41 <zamgo> has anyone done a "show current memory pool"  patch?
3605 2011-07-01 23:30:02 <zamgo> bitcoind getmemorypool
3606 2011-07-01 23:30:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: range
3607 2011-07-01 23:30:48 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: v0.3.22..v0.3.23 gets you commits between two tags
3608 2011-07-01 23:30:58 <BlueMatt> ah, ok thanks
3609 2011-07-01 23:30:59 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: v0.3.22..  gets you everything >= v0.3.22
3610 2011-07-01 23:31:08 <BlueMatt> and here I was thinking I was getting git
3611 2011-07-01 23:31:27 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the same range syntax works for a lot of git commands
3612 2011-07-01 23:31:37 <BlueMatt> good to know, thanks
3613 2011-07-01 23:31:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: most obvious are git log, git shortlog, git diff, ...
3614 2011-07-01 23:32:31 <BlueMatt> oh that would be useful for diff instead of git reset --hard ...; git diff ...
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3616 2011-07-01 23:32:37 <BlueMatt> :)
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3618 2011-07-01 23:33:29 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r056d2ad / src/makefile.vc :
3619 2011-07-01 23:33:29 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #371 from EricJ2190/master
3620 2011-07-01 23:33:29 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Updated Visual C++ Makefile - http://bit.ly/k2LUFk
3621 2011-07-01 23:33:42 rich has joined
3622 2011-07-01 23:33:54 <BlueMatt> can anyone remind me why we moved away from vc again, there was some bug that made it not work...?
3623 2011-07-01 23:34:20 <BlueMatt> ah it "caused rendering artifacts"
3624 2011-07-01 23:34:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: core devs are all Linux geeks?  :)
3625 2011-07-01 23:34:55 <BlueMatt> which iirc means the space behind the send button and horizontally to the far right becomes transparent on win7 and possibly vista
3626 2011-07-01 23:35:04 kermit has joined
3627 2011-07-01 23:35:06 <BlueMatt> and maybe xp too, or maybe thats just winserver 2003
3628 2011-07-01 23:35:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rb73ab2d / src/net.cpp :
3629 2011-07-01 23:35:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #368 from TheBlueMatt/dnsseed
3630 2011-07-01 23:35:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Only use dnsseeds when not on testnet. - http://bit.ly/jAvLXQ
3631 2011-07-01 23:36:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rc4286dc / src/rpc.cpp :
3632 2011-07-01 23:36:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #343 from muggenhor/proper-http-server-rejection
3633 2011-07-01 23:36:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: rpc server: send '403 Forbidden' to rejected clients - http://bit.ly/k1OlBm
3634 2011-07-01 23:37:19 <BlueMatt> should that last one go in 0.3.24?
3635 2011-07-01 23:38:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I don't mind one-liners unlikely to break stuff.  Our HTTP correctness is bloody awful
3636 2011-07-01 23:38:32 <BlueMatt> sounds good
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3641 2011-07-01 23:41:14 <BlueMatt> ok, now all thats needed is the make upnp default for bitcoin hack in the makefiles and 0.3.24 looks good
3642 2011-07-01 23:41:24 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/0.3
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3647 2011-07-01 23:45:04 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: just emailed bitcoin-dev list
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3649 2011-07-01 23:45:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: IMHO we should upnp default for all builds, bitcoin or bitcoind.  but this one is in Gavin area.
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3651 2011-07-01 23:46:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: wow we are doing CWallet in 0.3.24?
3652 2011-07-01 23:46:59 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression 0.3.24 would be a cherry-pick of commits since 0.3.23 specifically avoiding CWallet?
3653 2011-07-01 23:47:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: ^?
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3656 2011-07-01 23:50:33 <gmaxwell> While I've tested the heck out of then wallet code,  I think I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a sudden wide public release without leaving it on git for a while and encouraging people to run it
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3659 2011-07-01 23:51:03 <sipa> i'd avoid cwallet for 0.3.24
3660 2011-07-01 23:52:57 <jgarzik> sipa: are there major changes, or just code movement?
3661 2011-07-01 23:53:04 <jgarzik> cherry picking is a pain in the ass :)
3662 2011-07-01 23:53:05 Clipse has joined
3663 2011-07-01 23:53:09 <jgarzik> and upstream git is what people test
3664 2011-07-01 23:53:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: thats why I did the cherry-picking for you?
3665 2011-07-01 23:53:26 <BlueMatt> s/?//
3666 2011-07-01 23:53:45 <b4epoche_> s/?/!
3667 2011-07-01 23:54:05 <b4epoche_> although I think you need to escape the ?
3668 2011-07-01 23:54:06 <sipa> there should be no functional changes in cwallet
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3670 2011-07-01 23:54:35 <jgarzik> then I don't see a problem :)
3671 2011-07-01 23:54:46 <sipa> but given that i screwed up at least 3 times already, i'm noy sure there is no fourth
3672 2011-07-01 23:54:47 <BlueMatt> well its up to you
3673 2011-07-01 23:55:05 n8{away} has joined
3674 2011-07-01 23:55:17 <n8{away}> hi
3675 2011-07-01 23:55:20 <b4epoche_> I've been using the CWallet stuff for the past day or so in CocoaBitcoin and haven't had a problem...  just a trivially small data point
3676 2011-07-01 23:55:59 <sipa> if you take cwallet into 0.3.24, also merge the addressbook fix
3677 2011-07-01 23:56:12 <n8{away}> i am using the sendrom JSON command - can i just use the id that is returned for blockexplorer?
3678 2011-07-01 23:56:16 <sipa> which isn't merged yet
3679 2011-07-01 23:56:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how much have you beat on address book stuff?
3680 2011-07-01 23:57:12 <BlueMatt> if you dont want cwallet, I just cherrypicked just about everything else: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commits/0.3
3681 2011-07-01 23:57:14 <jgarzik> sipa: link?
3682 2011-07-01 23:57:15 fnord0 has joined
3683 2011-07-01 23:57:26 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/358
3684 2011-07-01 23:57:54 <gmaxwell> I've used move and sendfromaddress... and getting new addresses... haven't seen any problems, it appears okay, but then again I was mostly testing for encryption triggered bugs.
3685 2011-07-01 23:58:23 yebyen has joined
3686 2011-07-01 23:58:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: do we want all of #358?  from the comments it sounded like some are just improvements, not fixes
3687 2011-07-01 23:58:58 <gmaxwell> makomk: yea, but it's hard to solve unless we want to make encryption mandatory... or restore the bug where keys are not generated until the first time you get address.
3688 2011-07-01 23:59:30 <BlueMatt> n8{away}: yes
3689 2011-07-01 23:59:41 <n8{away}> hm