1 2011-07-05 00:00:45 <roconnor> sipa: so I was thinking that we might be able to use homomorphic encryption somehow to hide the values of coins in the ledger
2 2011-07-05 00:02:11 <roconnor> thus the public log could tell that the sum of the inputs of a transaction is equal to the sum of the outputs
3 2011-07-05 00:02:28 <BlueMatt> roconnor: why is that strictly necessary?
4 2011-07-05 00:02:31 <roconnor> but not what the value of the inputs and outputs are.
5 2011-07-05 00:02:47 <roconnor> BlueMatt: what do you mean?
6 2011-07-05 00:02:55 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
7 2011-07-05 00:02:59 <BlueMatt> why do we need that?
8 2011-07-05 00:03:12 <roconnor> to enance anonymity
9 2011-07-05 00:03:23 <BlueMatt> is that the goal of bitcoin?
10 2011-07-05 00:03:40 <roconnor> maybe
11 2011-07-05 00:04:04 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
12 2011-07-05 00:04:12 <roconnor> BlueMatt: if you don't want anonymity then why does the client have 100 addresses?
13 2011-07-05 00:04:24 <BlueMatt> oh, Im not answering, just asking questions
14 2011-07-05 00:04:27 <roconnor> okay
15 2011-07-05 00:04:54 <BlueMatt> though thats not the current goal of the developers, though might become such in the distant future...
16 2011-07-05 00:05:03 <BlueMatt> currently there is too much pr flac for being "anonymous"
17 2011-07-05 00:05:07 <roconnor> am I a developer?
18 2011-07-05 00:05:23 theorb has joined
19 2011-07-05 00:05:42 <BlueMatt> just saying, probability of making into bitcoin...
20 2011-07-05 00:05:51 <roconnor> BlueMatt: if the developers don't want to get PR flac I suggest they strip the existing anonymity parts of the code out and simplify the implementation.
21 2011-07-05 00:06:08 <BlueMatt> its not currently anonymous
22 2011-07-05 00:06:13 <roconnor> exactly
23 2011-07-05 00:06:29 <roconnor> get rid of the rolling addresses
24 2011-07-05 00:06:31 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
25 2011-07-05 00:06:32 <roconnor> right?
26 2011-07-05 00:06:40 <BlueMatt> rolling addresses?
27 2011-07-05 00:06:41 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
28 2011-07-05 00:06:58 <roconnor> every time you send a coin the change is send back to yourself through a new address, right?
29 2011-07-05 00:07:20 <BlueMatt> yea
30 2011-07-05 00:07:27 Herodes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
31 2011-07-05 00:07:28 <roconnor> that's what I mean by rolling address
32 2011-07-05 00:07:37 <BlueMatt> oh, I see what you mean
33 2011-07-05 00:07:38 <roconnor> the client has to keep track of all these new addressess
34 2011-07-05 00:07:42 <roconnor> generate new ones
35 2011-07-05 00:07:50 <roconnor> the user has to regularly backup the new address
36 2011-07-05 00:07:52 <roconnor> etc.
37 2011-07-05 00:07:52 <BlueMatt> that is an anonymity feature
38 2011-07-05 00:07:55 <roconnor> Right
39 2011-07-05 00:08:10 <roconnor> so if bitcoin isn't going to be anonymous; get rid of that excess weight.
40 2011-07-05 00:08:21 <roconnor> There is little point in being half anonymous.
41 2011-07-05 00:08:26 <BlueMatt> ah, see what you are sayin, well that is a bit more complicated
42 2011-07-05 00:08:29 <BlueMatt> satoshi wanted anon
43 2011-07-05 00:08:38 <BlueMatt> but that is not current target of development
44 2011-07-05 00:08:51 <BlueMatt> that doesnt mean we should throw out what we already have
45 2011-07-05 00:09:20 <BlueMatt> just in case that becomes a target in the long-term
46 2011-07-05 00:09:25 <roconnor> okay, well consider my thoughts on homomorphic encryption as furthering satoshi's program. :)
47 2011-07-05 00:09:43 again has joined
48 2011-07-05 00:10:39 <BlueMatt> Im not entirely sure that is entirely an anonimity feature, it only hides amounts not transactions
49 2011-07-05 00:10:50 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
50 2011-07-05 00:11:31 <roconnor> sounds like a partial anonimity feature to me.
51 2011-07-05 00:12:43 <BlueMatt> meh, its a cool idea...but it cant be backward compatible can it?
52 2011-07-05 00:13:00 <roconnor> not really; it would require a new transaction format I think
53 2011-07-05 00:13:07 <gim> roconnor: you have an actual implementation of homomorphic encryption for bitcoin?
54 2011-07-05 00:13:12 <roconnor> but bitcoin is upgradable ... right.
55 2011-07-05 00:13:24 <roconnor> gim: no, just a thought that occured while I was trying to sleep
56 2011-07-05 00:13:39 <roconnor> I don't even know if it would work
57 2011-07-05 00:13:43 <roconnor> just an inkling.
58 2011-07-05 00:15:17 <roconnor> I guess we also need to check that coins have a non-negative balance; which is tricker
59 2011-07-05 00:15:28 <gim> but going trough the chain history you would be able reconstitute everything unencrypted no?
60 2011-07-05 00:15:44 <roconnor> and probably requires fully homomorphic encryption ... hmmm
61 2011-07-05 00:16:14 <roconnor> gim: well, my vague idea is that you would know the value of the mined coins
62 2011-07-05 00:16:56 sacredchao has joined
63 2011-07-05 00:17:06 <roconnor> gim: those mined coins would be split up into new coins whose total value is verifably equal to the original coin, and verifiably positive, but of unknown value except to those who hold the decryption key.
64 2011-07-05 00:17:24 <roconnor> like I said, I'm not entirely sure this is possible.
65 2011-07-05 00:17:34 <gim> ok
66 2011-07-05 00:17:59 <roconnor> but from what little I know about homomorphic encyrption; it might be able to do stuff like this.
67 2011-07-05 00:18:00 <gim> interesting idea nevertheless
68 2011-07-05 00:18:19 <BlueMatt> cool idea, not sure about it for bitcoin though
69 2011-07-05 00:18:30 <BlueMatt> there are so many crazy potentials for bitcoin
70 2011-07-05 00:22:20 <justmoon> roconnor: wouldn't the value of the coins being positive simply be a matter of data format - i.e. if all your values are unsigned integers there can be no negative values
71 2011-07-05 00:22:39 AnonX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
72 2011-07-05 00:22:44 <justmoon> roconnor, how you can confirm that inputs equal outputs is over my head though, so idk :)
73 2011-07-05 00:23:47 <gim> from what i read on wikipedia, known homomorphic crypto work on monoids
74 2011-07-05 00:23:57 <gim> and there are negative number in those
75 2011-07-05 00:24:00 yin has joined
76 2011-07-05 00:24:08 <gim> so it's not just a matter of format i think
77 2011-07-05 00:24:16 <justmoon> gim: yeah, I just thought about it some more - you're right
78 2011-07-05 00:25:31 <yin> Question: If you were going to create a bitcoin exchange (like mtgox) would you use the bitcoind server as the btc accounting db or would you export deposits/withdraws into a sql db?
79 2011-07-05 00:26:17 <yin> I ask because bitcoind has some rather interesting quirks....
80 2011-07-05 00:26:17 <justmoon> mtgox does the latter. I think if you want to go with the former, you better be comfortable with patching the client yourself if need be
81 2011-07-05 00:26:28 <yin> right
82 2011-07-05 00:26:31 <theorbtwo> I'd use a SQL DB, and keep the backing money in N accounts, such that each of them has no more then M value.
83 2011-07-05 00:26:41 noagenda_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
84 2011-07-05 00:26:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> yin, also the hard part is not making the exchange, its finding a way to safely let people deposit/withdraw money
85 2011-07-05 00:26:59 <yin> right
86 2011-07-05 00:27:25 <yin> the btc server has 'move' which is interesting
87 2011-07-05 00:27:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> just keep that in mind, if you cant exchange $ for bitcoins there is no point (besides the fun of it)
88 2011-07-05 00:27:49 <yin> correct
89 2011-07-05 00:27:56 <yin> that part isn't that hard
90 2011-07-05 00:28:01 <theorbtwo> Well, exchange something for bitcoin, anyway.
91 2011-07-05 00:28:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> and it has to be both ways
92 2011-07-05 00:28:20 <yin> I like the berkley db aspect of bitcoind
93 2011-07-05 00:28:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> an ecchange where you can only withdraw or deposit will never work
94 2011-07-05 00:28:55 <yin> and you could create an account in btcd that had the same id (got all this working correctly)
95 2011-07-05 00:30:03 <yin> BitcoinForNewegg: well, yes, deposit something other than bitcoins...
96 2011-07-05 00:30:08 <yin> to exchange
97 2011-07-05 00:30:18 <yin> but that is not the extent of this proj.
98 2011-07-05 00:30:54 <yin> I was just wondering if anyone would make use of bitcoind for accounting...
99 2011-07-05 00:31:00 <yin> it had these functions
100 2011-07-05 00:31:05 <yin> (has*)
101 2011-07-05 00:31:18 <yin> and, is transactional
102 2011-07-05 00:32:05 <theorbtwo> My bitcoin-accepting shop will use bitcoind for accounting, but only until the amount has been paid.
103 2011-07-05 00:32:27 <theorbtwo> That is, it generates a new address for each invoice, names it, and then polls for the current value in it.
104 2011-07-05 00:32:53 torsthaldo_ has joined
105 2011-07-05 00:33:02 kgo has joined
106 2011-07-05 00:33:15 <yin> so a demon is running in the background polling?
107 2011-07-05 00:34:23 dbasch has joined
108 2011-07-05 00:34:26 <theorbtwo> It will. I haven't written it yet.
109 2011-07-05 00:34:33 <yin> i see.
110 2011-07-05 00:34:48 torsthaldo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
111 2011-07-05 00:34:48 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
112 2011-07-05 00:35:22 <theorbtwo> I don't actually expect many people to buy using bitcoin, but I want to have the option available.
113 2011-07-05 00:37:12 <yin> prolly a good idea.
114 2011-07-05 00:37:40 move9 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
115 2011-07-05 00:38:23 <theorbtwo> For one thing, I'll get some degree of press / buzz as a bitcoin-accepting store.
116 2011-07-05 00:38:33 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, a bit of free advice dont use the baked in accounting
117 2011-07-05 00:38:35 gim has quit (Quit: bye)
118 2011-07-05 00:38:46 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: Why not?
119 2011-07-05 00:38:58 <phantomcircuit> you'll be sorry
120 2011-07-05 00:39:38 <yin> phantomcircuit: so you are saying use the bitcoind account?
121 2011-07-05 00:39:49 <yin> (accounting*)
122 2011-07-05 00:39:52 <phantomcircuit> no im saying NOT to use it
123 2011-07-05 00:39:55 <yin> i see
124 2011-07-05 00:40:16 <jgarzik> yin, theorbtwo: be skeptical of warnings without explanation
125 2011-07-05 00:40:22 <yin> k
126 2011-07-05 00:40:38 <theorbtwo> Yeah, jgarzik, I was already being skeptical.
127 2011-07-05 00:40:40 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, saying my warning is bullshit?
128 2011-07-05 00:40:43 <phantomcircuit> ok
129 2011-07-05 00:41:00 <phantomcircuit> accounting is useful if nothing ever goes wrong with your site ever
130 2011-07-05 00:41:13 <phantomcircuit> the moment something goes wrong though it makes it impossible to fix
131 2011-07-05 00:41:20 <yin> I am just saying, a sql database is meshed in to a db app... there are many potential problems in that case too...
132 2011-07-05 00:41:36 <phantomcircuit> what
133 2011-07-05 00:42:14 <yin> a database, like mysql is a similar process to mysql no?
134 2011-07-05 00:42:23 <phantomcircuit> yes
135 2011-07-05 00:42:27 <yin> dorry bitcoind/
136 2011-07-05 00:42:32 <yin> my bad
137 2011-07-05 00:42:42 <yin> so how is that so diff?
138 2011-07-05 00:42:42 <phantomcircuit> NO
139 2011-07-05 00:42:58 <phantomcircuit> bitcoind uses bdb in asynchronous mode with all fsync calls turned off
140 2011-07-05 00:43:10 <yin> so no locking?
141 2011-07-05 00:43:15 <phantomcircuit> when you do something to the wallet it MIGHT be written to disk
142 2011-07-05 00:43:16 <phantomcircuit> or not
143 2011-07-05 00:43:20 <yin> hmm
144 2011-07-05 00:43:21 <phantomcircuit> you have no way of knowing
145 2011-07-05 00:43:26 <yin> good point
146 2011-07-05 00:43:35 <phantomcircuit> so if you use the bitcoind accounting AND an external rdbms
147 2011-07-05 00:43:43 <phantomcircuit> you cannot guarantee internal consistency
148 2011-07-05 00:43:54 <theorbtwo> Yeah, you need to make sure that the driver code backs up the wallet often enough.
149 2011-07-05 00:43:55 <phantomcircuit> much less guarantee transactions have completed (not talking bitcoin transactions)
150 2011-07-05 00:44:07 <phantomcircuit> it's not about backing up the wallet
151 2011-07-05 00:44:27 <phantomcircuit> it's about bitcoind using bdb in such a way that db writes are not guaranteed to actually write anything to disk
152 2011-07-05 00:44:31 <phantomcircuit> (ever!)
153 2011-07-05 00:44:37 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: Well, everything but your private keys is "in the cloud", anyway.
154 2011-07-05 00:44:37 <yin> it is about accounting...
155 2011-07-05 00:44:53 <yin> good point
156 2011-07-05 00:45:22 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, yes but if you use the accounting in bitcoind you're putting something into bitcoind aside from your private key list
157 2011-07-05 00:45:25 <yin> however.... many database have the same flaw no?
158 2011-07-05 00:45:32 <yin> fsync?
159 2011-07-05 00:45:39 <yin> mysql does
160 2011-07-05 00:45:40 <phantomcircuit> so you now have 2 databases 1 of which doesn't gurantee anything ever
161 2011-07-05 00:45:41 <theorbtwo> yin: Not decent ones.
162 2011-07-05 00:45:57 <phantomcircuit> yin, mysql calls fsync at predetermined times
163 2011-07-05 00:46:09 <yin> my point exactly
164 2011-07-05 00:46:11 <theorbtwo> A decent database, when your transaction finishes, will make certian that it is on disk.
165 2011-07-05 00:46:17 <yin> oracke?
166 2011-07-05 00:46:21 <yin> does the same thing no?
167 2011-07-05 00:46:27 <yin> it is for performance
168 2011-07-05 00:46:34 <phantomcircuit> yin, postgresql can guarantee internal consistency using a write ahead log
169 2011-07-05 00:46:34 [Tycho] has joined
170 2011-07-05 00:46:54 <yin> i do like psql
171 2011-07-05 00:47:09 <phantomcircuit> mysql can do something similar with binary logs and periodic fsync calls
172 2011-07-05 00:47:25 <theorbtwo> There is a trade-off between performance and saftey. When an error can cause money to simply disappear, you really, really want saftey to win over performance.
173 2011-07-05 00:47:28 <jgarzik> <phantomcircuit> it's about bitcoind using bdb in such a way that db writes are not guaranteed to actually write anything to disk
174 2011-07-05 00:47:28 <phantomcircuit> bdb *can* do this
175 2011-07-05 00:47:30 <jgarzik> false
176 2011-07-05 00:47:36 <jgarzik> you don't understand our bdb setup
177 2011-07-05 00:47:38 <yin> using berkleydb?!!
178 2011-07-05 00:47:52 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, please explain it to me then because i've seen EXACTLY that behavior
179 2011-07-05 00:48:11 <jgarzik> there is a big diff between DB_TXN_NOSYNC and checkpointing
180 2011-07-05 00:48:27 <jgarzik> bdb definitely sync's stuff to disk
181 2011-07-05 00:48:31 Tim-7967 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
182 2011-07-05 00:48:36 <theorbtwo> FWIW, I'd use the backupwallet command to copy the wallet to a different machine.
183 2011-07-05 00:48:56 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's not syncing in order, it's doing something similar to mysql, but stupid
184 2011-07-05 00:49:16 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
185 2011-07-05 00:49:41 <jgarzik> it's in log order. wrong again.
186 2011-07-05 00:49:50 RenaKunisaki has joined
187 2011-07-05 00:49:52 <phantomcircuit> ha no it's not
188 2011-07-05 00:49:58 <phantomcircuit> it's in internal log order
189 2011-07-05 00:50:04 <phantomcircuit> which isn't the same as the logical log order
190 2011-07-05 00:50:33 <phantomcircuit> either way my original point still stands
191 2011-07-05 00:50:50 <jgarzik> "db writes are not guaranteed to actually write anything to disk" is provably false
192 2011-07-05 00:50:59 <jgarzik> you're just trying to scare people into paying your company
193 2011-07-05 00:51:06 <phantomcircuit> you cannot guarantee internal consistency of your full dataset if you're using 2 databases without a massive amount of checking and locking
194 2011-07-05 00:51:21 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i have no intention of writing his website
195 2011-07-05 00:51:28 <phantomcircuit> which is why i gave him free advice
196 2011-07-05 00:51:41 <yin> then why not use 2 databases too?
197 2011-07-05 00:52:34 <yin> honestly... which has been around longer... berkleydb or mysql? AND what does mysql use as it's backup server?
198 2011-07-05 00:52:50 <tcatm> his server is probably in a big datacenter with UPS, RAID and a reliable filesystem and so it's unlikely he'll lose important accounting data because of bdb failing to write to the disk
199 2011-07-05 00:53:01 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
200 2011-07-05 00:53:02 <yin> it uses berkeydb
201 2011-07-05 00:53:11 <yin> no?
202 2011-07-05 00:53:16 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, depends on how bunched up his transactions get
203 2011-07-05 00:54:31 <phantomcircuit> not to mention if he *ever* has to restore from backups
204 2011-07-05 00:54:31 wilt- has quit ()
205 2011-07-05 00:54:36 <phantomcircuit> the accounts will be wrong
206 2011-07-05 00:55:06 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
207 2011-07-05 00:55:20 <tcatm> he could log everything to a textfile
208 2011-07-05 00:55:34 <phantomcircuit> consider this
209 2011-07-05 00:55:53 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
210 2011-07-05 00:56:26 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
211 2011-07-05 00:56:26 <phantomcircuit> when someone wants to buy something, he uses their user id as the account name and calls getnewaddress user_id
212 2011-07-05 00:56:40 <phantomcircuit> they take this address and pay for the item 1 day later
213 2011-07-05 00:56:50 <phantomcircuit> but what is this? his server is killed by a freak accident
214 2011-07-05 00:56:58 <phantomcircuit> but joy he has a recent backup!
215 2011-07-05 00:57:21 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
216 2011-07-05 00:57:30 <phantomcircuit> except the account numbers are wrong because the private key pool is for all the accounts and isn't assigned until he calls getnewaddress
217 2011-07-05 00:57:49 <phantomcircuit> so unless you backup the wallet after every single call to getnewaddress maintaining this list is impossible
218 2011-07-05 00:58:07 <tcatm> he can manually assign the account to the address
219 2011-07-05 00:58:11 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: Which is why you back up the wallet after every single call to getnewaddress.
220 2011-07-05 00:58:37 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, you realize that will be TB of data for any site seeing significant volume pretty quickly right?
221 2011-07-05 00:58:54 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
222 2011-07-05 00:59:09 <phantomcircuit> each key is insignificant,
223 2011-07-05 00:59:16 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: 1: I don't expect "significant" volume. I'm not making an exchange, I'm selling actual physical products.
224 2011-07-05 00:59:19 barubary has joined
225 2011-07-05 00:59:30 <tcatm> also, if he logs the result of getnewaddress ("$timestamp: $address -> $user") he should be pretty safe
226 2011-07-05 00:59:46 <yin> You could write to a stunnel mirror no?
227 2011-07-05 00:59:52 <theorbtwo> 2: Seriously? They are that big / you'd go through that many?
228 2011-07-05 00:59:54 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, this is true, but then what's the point of using the internal accounting? :P
229 2011-07-05 00:59:58 bravest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
230 2011-07-05 01:00:11 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: external accounting could fail, too
231 2011-07-05 01:00:26 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: I'd only use the internal accounting to tell me the current value of each "account".
232 2011-07-05 01:00:44 <theorbtwo> I'd record the address assigned in the payments table.
233 2011-07-05 01:00:47 <phantomcircuit> postgresql is probably about a million times less likely to fail catastrophically than bitcoind's accounting
234 2011-07-05 01:00:50 <tcatm> as he's selling physical products he'll probably have hardcopy backups of the transactions and could just print the bitcoin address on them
235 2011-07-05 01:00:55 <theorbtwo> The name that goes along with it is just a convience.
236 2011-07-05 01:01:14 <phantomcircuit> and that's being conservative...
237 2011-07-05 01:02:08 <theorbtwo> phantomcircuit: On the other hand, most of the data in the database is just a cached copy of the block chain.
238 2011-07-05 01:02:24 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, wrong, the wallet is a separate db
239 2011-07-05 01:02:43 <phantomcircuit> which for god knows why is in the same performance mode as the main block chain db
240 2011-07-05 01:02:45 <theorbtwo> What you have to know is what private key goes with which public key (address), and what address goes with what invoice.
241 2011-07-05 01:03:11 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, correct, mapping the address to invoice reliably is the challenge
242 2011-07-05 01:03:22 <tcatm> print it on invoice?
243 2011-07-05 01:03:31 <theorbtwo> You keep that in the main database of the website.
244 2011-07-05 01:03:51 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, you also need to be reasonably sure you dont use the same address twice
245 2011-07-05 01:04:02 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, yes which is what i was originally saying
246 2011-07-05 01:04:20 <phantomcircuit> if you're storing the address in the main database for the site, you are not using the bitcoind internal accounting
247 2011-07-05 01:04:41 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: in that case you have 1) the amount (which is likely to be different) and 2) timestamp to match them
248 2011-07-05 01:05:21 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, yes and this is easier to do with physical shipments, however i didn't know he was doing physical goods when i made the suggestion
249 2011-07-05 01:05:50 <phantomcircuit> but you have to remember that practically anybody can claim an order as their own if you lose the correlation between invoice and payment
250 2011-07-05 01:06:23 <phantomcircuit> also im a bit testy because these polish guys sold me a mobo that was recalled due to the sandy bridge SATA bug
251 2011-07-05 01:06:27 <phantomcircuit> and i actually experienced it
252 2011-07-05 01:06:32 <phantomcircuit> which is apparently very rare
253 2011-07-05 01:06:42 <tcatm> and if you run an internet service you'll do offline bookkeeping anyway
254 2011-07-05 01:07:44 <yin> So the consensus is DONT use bitcoind for anything other than sending/receiving correct?
255 2011-07-05 01:08:47 <yin> create your own accounting/transaction sql db...
256 2011-07-05 01:09:03 <phantomcircuit> that's what i would say, but you're free to use a program that crashes consistently
257 2011-07-05 01:09:11 <tcatm> yin: bitcoind accounting works just fine but you should make sure you have a copy of the transactions somewhere
258 2011-07-05 01:09:28 <yin> I'd like to use bitcoind. but I see your point.
259 2011-07-05 01:10:10 <yin> sort of torn here... I also believe that bitcoind will get better in the future...
260 2011-07-05 01:11:15 BlueMatt has joined
261 2011-07-05 01:12:04 <yin> there are arguments for both side...and both sides have points of failure. Honestly, i like the bitcoind...but going to play with both options. Thanks for the advice!
262 2011-07-05 01:12:42 <theorbtwo> yin: While no doubt bitcoind will get better over time, in many ways, it is unlikely to be a better database then a normal database.
263 2011-07-05 01:12:55 BlueMattBot has joined
264 2011-07-05 01:13:32 <yin> theorbtwo: right you are... but by writing these functions yourself you are also taking on new risks...
265 2011-07-05 01:13:52 <yin> just saying...
266 2011-07-05 01:14:36 Leo_II has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
267 2011-07-05 01:14:38 <theorbtwo> True.
268 2011-07-05 01:14:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: sipa tcatm others I implemented minversion in wallet and made a new pull and asked for comments on the list. As I said there, I would like to see rc2 out the door tomorrow and release by the end of the week if nothing goes wrong...in other words votes and/or acks on one or the other pull request would be much appreciated
269 2011-07-05 01:14:53 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, a wallet with 21287 addresses is ~30MB
270 2011-07-05 01:14:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: jrmithdobbs ^
271 2011-07-05 01:14:56 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
272 2011-07-05 01:15:05 <theorbtwo> OTOH, I need to do very similar things to support other payment methods.
273 2011-07-05 01:15:33 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, for the sake of simplicity lets assume that each address consumes 1.5 KB
274 2011-07-05 01:16:41 kish has joined
275 2011-07-05 01:16:54 <BlueMatt> actually bitcoin as it stands is fairly efficient when it comes to handling a ton of addresses, I dont think anyone cares about 30MB on disk, its a question of how fast you can handle, say, a new tx coming in and checking your addresses against it, which Bitcoin does in a mostly-efficient manner
276 2011-07-05 01:17:24 <BlueMatt> once we get asio on rpc probably not too far off, it will be quite useable for crazy high-load stuff
277 2011-07-05 01:17:59 WildSoil has quit ()
278 2011-07-05 01:18:05 oozyburglar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
279 2011-07-05 01:18:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, he was saying to backup after every getnewaddress call
280 2011-07-05 01:18:16 <BlueMatt> you dont have to nearly do that
281 2011-07-05 01:18:25 <phantomcircuit> (which is the only way to guarantee consistency between the internal bitcoin accounting and an external rdbms)
282 2011-07-05 01:18:29 <BlueMatt> you can set -keypoolmin to some huge number and only vary rarely backup
283 2011-07-05 01:18:39 <BlueMatt> that is absolute bullshit and you know it
284 2011-07-05 01:19:19 <phantomcircuit> what
285 2011-07-05 01:19:21 <phantomcircuit> no it isn't
286 2011-07-05 01:19:31 <BlueMatt> ok, prove me wrong
287 2011-07-05 01:19:37 <phantomcircuit> the keypool isn't for individual addresses
288 2011-07-05 01:19:46 <phantomcircuit> you wont lose funds
289 2011-07-05 01:19:50 <phantomcircuit> you'll lose who paid what
290 2011-07-05 01:20:28 <BlueMatt> yes, you do, if bitcoin crashes while you are calling getnewaddress...if, OTOH, bitcoin returns an address, you know 100% that it is on-disk
291 2011-07-05 01:20:55 <BlueMatt> including all the relevant accounting info
292 2011-07-05 01:20:59 <phantomcircuit> yes and if it then crashes mid write and you dont have a backup the wallet could be fucked
293 2011-07-05 01:21:06 <BlueMatt> since when?
294 2011-07-05 01:21:06 <phantomcircuit> and you'd need to restore from a backup
295 2011-07-05 01:21:09 <phantomcircuit> which has the keys
296 2011-07-05 01:21:16 <BlueMatt> that is bullshit
297 2011-07-05 01:21:21 <phantomcircuit> but doesn't have the accounting info
298 2011-07-05 01:21:42 <BlueMatt> again, by the time bitcoin has returned an address for a call to getnewaddress, the accounting info is on-disk 100%
299 2011-07-05 01:21:46 <phantomcircuit> it's not bullshit
300 2011-07-05 01:21:55 <BlueMatt> that means either you get the address and its on disk, or you dont get an address
301 2011-07-05 01:21:58 <phantomcircuit> i had it happen when rpc shitted out
302 2011-07-05 01:21:58 <BlueMatt> there is no half-way here
303 2011-07-05 01:22:25 <BlueMatt> and let me guess, the first thing you did when it died is delete ~/.bitcoin/database
304 2011-07-05 01:22:29 <BlueMatt> and thus your logs and you lost data
305 2011-07-05 01:22:33 <BlueMatt> I wonder why that is
306 2011-07-05 01:22:53 <phantomcircuit> uh no
307 2011-07-05 01:23:16 <BlueMatt> than you are spouting fud and bullshit
308 2011-07-05 01:23:26 <phantomcircuit> the first thing i did was to restart bitcoin as ./bitcoind -rescan -nolisten
309 2011-07-05 01:23:32 <BlueMatt> lol, ok then
310 2011-07-05 01:24:04 <phantomcircuit> wallet was corrupt and upon inspection contained some nice strips of \x00
311 2011-07-05 01:24:18 <phantomcircuit> now it didn't matter because i wasn't using accounts
312 2011-07-05 01:24:22 <phantomcircuit> but ti *would* have mattered
313 2011-07-05 01:24:23 <BlueMatt> yes, rpc crashes/locks up in several ways which is not good, and will be fixed in the not-too-distant future, but that doesnt mean that bdb doesnt know how to handle a crashing program
314 2011-07-05 01:24:35 estornudo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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316 2011-07-05 01:24:50 <yin> question to @Bluematt: Question: If you were going to create a bitcoin exchange (like mtgox) would you use the bitcoind server as the btc accounting db or would you export deposits/withdraws into a sql db?
317 2011-07-05 01:24:53 <BlueMatt> yes, the actual db file could very likely have incorrect data, but there are logs for a reason
318 2011-07-05 01:25:06 <phantomcircuit> theorbtwo, btw if that wallet had been backed up after every call to getnewaddress it would be 300 GB
319 2011-07-05 01:25:13 <BlueMatt> yin: currently, absolutely do a separate db
320 2011-07-05 01:25:22 <yin> thanks
321 2011-07-05 01:25:29 <BlueMatt> yin: but that doesnt at all mean in any way that you need to backup after each getnewaddress
322 2011-07-05 01:25:33 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol that was my entire point
323 2011-07-05 01:25:35 <BlueMatt> or that when bitcoin crashes it corrupts wallets
324 2011-07-05 01:25:45 <phantomcircuit> that you shouldn't rely on the internal accounting
325 2011-07-05 01:25:53 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I think both patches (minversion + fail on unknown key) are a good idea. Would it be possible to throw meaningful exceptions so the user knows why it failed?
326 2011-07-05 01:25:55 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no, you are claiming that it will corrupt and if bitcoin crashes lose info
327 2011-07-05 01:26:07 <BlueMatt> which is fud and bs
328 2011-07-05 01:26:10 <phantomcircuit> yes and it *did* happen to me once
329 2011-07-05 01:26:40 <BlueMatt> all the accounting system really needs is some settings to set if you want to let an account go under 0, and asio w/ multithreading handlers
330 2011-07-05 01:26:44 <phantomcircuit> happened when i called getnewaddress a couple thousand times a second on accident
331 2011-07-05 01:26:52 <BlueMatt> uhhuh ok then
332 2011-07-05 01:26:55 <phantomcircuit> infinite loop getnewaddress caused a crash
333 2011-07-05 01:27:07 <phantomcircuit> wallet wasn't recoverable by simply restarting bitcoind
334 2011-07-05 01:27:11 <tcatm> yin: if you do an exchange, keep at least two databases on different hosts and separate the account withdrawal/funding database from trading database
335 2011-07-05 01:27:43 <BlueMatt> there are only a handful of scenarios where bdb will lose data, a. if you are using it wrong, which you have yet to prove and all the code Ive ever seen in db.* (which is all of it) implements bdb correct, or b. hardware failure
336 2011-07-05 01:27:46 <BlueMatt> disk too slow
337 2011-07-05 01:27:49 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, if you keep the accounting separate from trading you cannot possibly maintain internal consistency...
338 2011-07-05 01:27:52 <BlueMatt> or corruption
339 2011-07-05 01:28:04 <BlueMatt> that said, it is very likely that your disk was too slow as bitcoin doesnt handle txes well
340 2011-07-05 01:28:14 <BlueMatt> thus generates excessive io
341 2011-07-05 01:28:19 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, im 100% sure the disk was too slow
342 2011-07-05 01:28:27 <BlueMatt> ok, then why are you blaming bitcoin?
343 2011-07-05 01:28:35 <phantomcircuit> but a slow disk shouldn't be enough to cause corruption
344 2011-07-05 01:28:50 mmoya has joined
345 2011-07-05 01:28:58 <BlueMatt> a slow disk is enough to cause corruption on *any* professional db
346 2011-07-05 01:29:04 Beccara_ has joined
347 2011-07-05 01:29:08 <BlueMatt> whether its psql, mysql, oracle, or anything
348 2011-07-05 01:29:18 <phantomcircuit> the same system (a shit netbook) runs postgresql and handled a mirror of the workload as every getnewaddress resulted in a transaction
349 2011-07-05 01:29:24 <phantomcircuit> psql didn't crash nor lose data
350 2011-07-05 01:29:36 <phantomcircuit> and im sure it was swapping too
351 2011-07-05 01:29:39 <BlueMatt> thats because bitcoin uses excessive io to get the job done
352 2011-07-05 01:29:45 <BlueMatt> Im not saying bitcoin isnt perfect
353 2011-07-05 01:29:58 <BlueMatt> Im just saying you cant blame bitcoin if you were throwing too much for your hardware at it
354 2011-07-05 01:30:09 <phantomcircuit> uh
355 2011-07-05 01:30:11 <phantomcircuit> yes i can
356 2011-07-05 01:30:17 <phantomcircuit> excessive io should cause it to be slow
357 2011-07-05 01:30:21 <phantomcircuit> not corrupt
358 2011-07-05 01:30:22 <BlueMatt> its inefficient, not broken
359 2011-07-05 01:30:25 Guest1598725452 has quit ()
360 2011-07-05 01:30:32 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> a slow disk is enough to cause corruption on *any* professional db
361 2011-07-05 01:30:41 <BlueMatt> that includes psql too
362 2011-07-05 01:31:11 <phantomcircuit> you mean between sync calls right
363 2011-07-05 01:31:13 marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK
364 2011-07-05 01:31:24 <phantomcircuit> well guess what? i had synchronous_commit on
365 2011-07-05 01:31:26 <BlueMatt> tcatm: hmm...well that would mean changing the return value of LoadWallet to an int which I have kind of been avoiding unless its really necessary
366 2011-07-05 01:31:27 <phantomcircuit> so no actually
367 2011-07-05 01:31:57 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no, the problem is not at all that, the problem is when the linux kernel times out on io stuff data gets corrupted on disk...period
368 2011-07-05 01:32:01 flykoko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
369 2011-07-05 01:32:06 <tcatm> BlueMatt: it's C++ and thus we can throw real exceptions, can't we?
370 2011-07-05 01:32:10 <BlueMatt> tcatm: though tbh Im not entirely sure why...
371 2011-07-05 01:32:21 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
372 2011-07-05 01:32:23 <BlueMatt> tcatm: true
373 2011-07-05 01:32:53 flykoko has joined
374 2011-07-05 01:33:16 Leo_II has joined
375 2011-07-05 01:33:17 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: esp when swap is involved
376 2011-07-05 01:33:43 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, citation
377 2011-07-05 01:33:52 <BlueMatt> my own vm server
378 2011-07-05 01:33:55 <phantomcircuit> cause that smells like bullshit
379 2011-07-05 01:34:09 <BlueMatt> I used to use vmware, which for some bright reason decided that all vm ram should be a file on disk
380 2011-07-05 01:34:16 <BlueMatt> and then assume the os will cache that
381 2011-07-05 01:34:35 <phantomcircuit> lol well yeah it's not fucking calling fsync
382 2011-07-05 01:34:37 <BlueMatt> in any case, if a server began misbehaving, it would eat ram and start swapping making every vm's ram effectively swap
383 2011-07-05 01:34:52 <BlueMatt> so when one vm misbehaved, everything would die
384 2011-07-05 01:35:00 <BlueMatt> disk corruption happened all the time on each server
385 2011-07-05 01:35:12 <BlueMatt> including a psql one, and several simple ones that just sit around doing nothing
386 2011-07-05 01:35:41 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is bullshit
387 2011-07-05 01:35:47 <BlueMatt> tcatm: Im assuming the proper way would be to define error codes in db.h, and throw those?
388 2011-07-05 01:35:57 <phantomcircuit> of course they're not fucking calling fsync for an mmap of vm ram
389 2011-07-05 01:36:02 <phantomcircuit> that would be fucktarded
390 2011-07-05 01:36:03 <BlueMatt> oh on that
391 2011-07-05 01:36:05 <BlueMatt> yea of course
392 2011-07-05 01:36:05 liltoe has quit (Quit: wee wee wee)
393 2011-07-05 01:36:37 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter psql was calling fsync
394 2011-07-05 01:36:41 <BlueMatt> and its data still got fucked
395 2011-07-05 01:36:51 conjre has joined
396 2011-07-05 01:37:19 <BlueMatt> when io gets overloaded, shit gets fucked...period
397 2011-07-05 01:37:28 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
398 2011-07-05 01:37:38 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you can lose transactions off the end of the transaction log, but short of a hardware failure you will not lose data that has already been fsync'd
399 2011-07-05 01:37:52 <phantomcircuit> hardware failure is however guaranteed to occur
400 2011-07-05 01:37:57 dbasch has joined
401 2011-07-05 01:37:59 <BlueMatt> the solution to "bitcoin is inefficient in writing data" is not "come pay us to use our alternative, untested client" its to fix the realistically small amount of code it would require to fix it
402 2011-07-05 01:38:21 <BlueMatt> if you really need to make money, you can sell a damn patch
403 2011-07-05 01:38:24 <phantomcircuit> i've literally never heard of data that was fsync'd successfully failing to hit the disk short of hardware failure
404 2011-07-05 01:38:35 <BlueMatt> I have, after having seen it
405 2011-07-05 01:38:38 <phantomcircuit> the fuck do peopel think this is about money
406 2011-07-05 01:38:42 <phantomcircuit> im giving the guy free advice
407 2011-07-05 01:39:08 <BlueMatt> no you are spouting fud about the bitcoin client
408 2011-07-05 01:39:13 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I'm not sure but that sounds like a good idea. Maybe similar to JSONRPCError in rpc.cpp?
409 2011-07-05 01:39:33 <BlueMatt> even if you give that guy free advice, your whole goal here is to keep telling people that the bitcoin client sucks
410 2011-07-05 01:40:20 <BlueMatt> tcatm: hm...yea I suppose thats better
411 2011-07-05 01:40:39 TheZimm has joined
412 2011-07-05 01:42:40 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
413 2011-07-05 01:43:04 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the bitcoin client *does* suck
414 2011-07-05 01:43:06 <phantomcircuit> also fucking sandy bridge
415 2011-07-05 01:43:12 <phantomcircuit> desktop has a rev 1.0 sandy bridge mobo that i didn't even notice until it started throwing read/write failures
416 2011-07-05 01:43:17 <BlueMatt> no, the bitcoin client is inefficient at several things
417 2011-07-05 01:43:24 <BlueMatt> that in no way makes it suck entirely
418 2011-07-05 01:43:47 <BlueMatt> in fact, it is inefficient at only about 3 things
419 2011-07-05 01:43:52 <BlueMatt> net, rpc, and db writes
420 2011-07-05 01:43:59 <phantomcircuit> uh
421 2011-07-05 01:44:00 <BlueMatt> net isnt a huge deal
422 2011-07-05 01:44:03 <phantomcircuit> so the ui is efficient
423 2011-07-05 01:44:05 <BlueMatt> rpc is to be fixed soon
424 2011-07-05 01:44:18 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
425 2011-07-05 01:44:19 <BlueMatt> though it needs to get non-floats too
426 2011-07-05 01:44:25 <BlueMatt> but thats not too hard to do...
427 2011-07-05 01:44:27 <phantomcircuit> heh
428 2011-07-05 01:44:31 <phantomcircuit> genjix has a patch for that
429 2011-07-05 01:44:39 <tcatm> the transaction mempool (used for mining) is also inefficient
430 2011-07-05 01:44:49 <BlueMatt> good, as long as its configurable, we can pull that
431 2011-07-05 01:45:04 <BlueMatt> tcatm: thats true, but thats also to be fixed when fees get changed drasticall
432 2011-07-05 01:45:04 <BlueMatt> y
433 2011-07-05 01:45:07 <BlueMatt> or, thats the idea
434 2011-07-05 01:45:15 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's not but it could be done as a different rpc call which would probably be the most compatible
435 2011-07-05 01:45:32 <phantomcircuit> and loading the entire block chain into memory is not going to keep working moving foreward
436 2011-07-05 01:45:40 <BlueMatt> yea, Ill either modify his code, or write one to do that for a version soon then
437 2011-07-05 01:45:47 <BlueMatt> its really quite simple
438 2011-07-05 01:45:57 <BlueMatt> since when do we load the entire chain to memory
439 2011-07-05 01:46:01 <BlueMatt> oh you mean headers
440 2011-07-05 01:46:04 <phantomcircuit> it is, but his version is well tested at this point
441 2011-07-05 01:46:08 <BlueMatt> well that is a ways off that that will be bad
442 2011-07-05 01:46:12 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the index
443 2011-07-05 01:46:19 <jgarzik> we don't load the headers nor the chain into memory
444 2011-07-05 01:46:20 <phantomcircuit> it's already kind of annoying
445 2011-07-05 01:46:33 <jgarzik> as for the index, that's already slated for destruction
446 2011-07-05 01:46:37 <jgarzik> as is address
447 2011-07-05 01:47:22 <phantomcircuit> loading the block index takes about 14 seconds on this netbook
448 2011-07-05 01:47:23 yin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
449 2011-07-05 01:47:28 <phantomcircuit> and the ui doesn't display until it's done
450 2011-07-05 01:47:37 Joric has joined
451 2011-07-05 01:47:49 Glasswlkr has joined
452 2011-07-05 01:47:56 <BlueMatt> what gui app needs be seriously concerned about performance?
453 2011-07-05 01:47:56 marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc
454 2011-07-05 01:48:05 <BlueMatt> on a netbook
455 2011-07-05 01:48:13 <phantomcircuit> one that hopes to be used by everybody?
456 2011-07-05 01:48:18 <BlueMatt> on a server, yea it needs to be quick, but on a server it is quick
457 2011-07-05 01:48:45 <BlueMatt> 14 seconds is perfectly acceptable on a really slow netbook
458 2011-07-05 01:48:47 <phantomcircuit> you realize that a large % of the world uses computers slower than this netbook
459 2011-07-05 01:48:56 <BlueMatt> everything takes 10+ seconds on that kind of hardware
460 2011-07-05 01:49:32 <phantomcircuit> uh not really
461 2011-07-05 01:49:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: this is going away, don't worry about it
462 2011-07-05 01:49:48 <phantomcircuit> i actually run gentoo on this and have no trouble building stuff
463 2011-07-05 01:49:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: this is the triple-caching thing I was talking about
464 2011-07-05 01:50:00 <phantomcircuit> block index 104825ms
465 2011-07-05 01:50:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yep
466 2011-07-05 01:50:31 <phantomcircuit> oh and loading every single address from addr.dat is just silly
467 2011-07-05 01:50:44 <BlueMatt> yep thats gonna go away really soon too
468 2011-07-05 01:50:53 dbasch has joined
469 2011-07-05 01:52:02 <BlueMatt> tcatm: actually, I dont really like the look of a crazy error object, I prefer just straight throw constants
470 2011-07-05 01:52:07 <coderrr> Joric,
471 2011-07-05 01:52:08 <coderrr> https://github.com/coderrr/bitcoin/commits/v0.3.24%2Bcoderrr/
472 2011-07-05 01:52:23 <Joric> coderrr, great
473 2011-07-05 01:52:44 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
474 2011-07-05 01:53:18 Stellar has joined
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478 2011-07-05 01:56:00 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, btw im not personally invested in a new bitcoin implementation
479 2011-07-05 01:56:08 <phantomcircuit> i just wanted to give him some advice
480 2011-07-05 01:56:24 <BlueMatt> how are you not invested in a new implementation?
481 2011-07-05 01:57:08 <phantomcircuit> it'll be foss
482 2011-07-05 01:57:16 <phantomcircuit> there is no financial gain to be had
483 2011-07-05 01:57:23 <picci> anyone want the domains botcoin.com .net and .org for 1btc ?
484 2011-07-05 01:57:38 <phantomcircuit> it's solely because we need a more solid one to build on top of
485 2011-07-05 01:57:54 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: arg, ok then have fun
486 2011-07-05 01:59:28 <Joric> i don't really like the minversion thing, say all of Blender's ".blend" files are forward, backward, and cross-platform compatible with other versions of Blender :)
487 2011-07-05 01:59:50 <BlueMatt> and when blender implements new stuff?
488 2011-07-05 01:59:56 <BlueMatt> what do the old versions do?
489 2011-07-05 02:00:00 <BlueMatt> read everything correct?
490 2011-07-05 02:00:01 <Joric> hell knows
491 2011-07-05 02:00:12 <phantomcircuit> you lose just that effect
492 2011-07-05 02:00:17 <phantomcircuit> which is fine for blender
493 2011-07-05 02:00:22 <BlueMatt> exactly, the difference is, if blender reads it wrong, well you go open it in a new client
494 2011-07-05 02:00:22 <phantomcircuit> but shit finance software
495 2011-07-05 02:00:29 <BlueMatt> if bitcoin reads it wrong, you could lose money
496 2011-07-05 02:00:42 denisx_ has joined
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498 2011-07-05 02:03:31 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
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501 2011-07-05 02:05:49 <BlueMatt> tcatm: hm, I really dont like the looks of either of these...Im no C++ programmer
502 2011-07-05 02:05:55 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
503 2011-07-05 02:05:55 denisx_ is now known as denisx
504 2011-07-05 02:05:57 <BlueMatt> what is the actual correct way to do this?
505 2011-07-05 02:11:12 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, what are you doing?
506 2011-07-05 02:11:22 <BlueMatt> throw exception from LoadWallet
507 2011-07-05 02:11:34 <BlueMatt> whats the C++ way to throw it
508 2011-07-05 02:11:42 <BlueMatt> do you define constants
509 2011-07-05 02:11:48 <BlueMatt> or create a crazy object like RPCError
510 2011-07-05 02:12:07 <BlueMatt> probably extending std::exception instead of Object, but thats irrelevant
511 2011-07-05 02:12:09 <phantomcircuit> you inhereit std::exception
512 2011-07-05 02:12:16 <phantomcircuit> and throw that
513 2011-07-05 02:12:24 <phantomcircuit> but really c++ exceptions are wicked ugly
514 2011-07-05 02:12:24 <BlueMatt> thought so
515 2011-07-05 02:12:31 <BlueMatt> yea, tell me about it
516 2011-07-05 02:12:49 <phantomcircuit> the google c++ code style guide just flat out says not to use them
517 2011-07-05 02:12:52 <BlueMatt> frankly, Id rather just return a constant, but thats just me
518 2011-07-05 02:13:28 <phantomcircuit> exceptions in c++ have actually been security issues in the past, cant say i even remotely understand how but they were
519 2011-07-05 02:13:43 <BlueMatt> lol http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cppguide.xml#Exceptions
520 2011-07-05 02:13:49 <BlueMatt> "We do not use C++ exceptions."
521 2011-07-05 02:14:04 nidefawl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
522 2011-07-05 02:14:19 <BlueMatt> well thats good enough for me, Im returning a constant int
523 2011-07-05 02:14:38 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, c++ code that uses exceptions really only works when you have an extensive list of all the possible exceptions a function can throw
524 2011-07-05 02:14:45 <phantomcircuit> which ends up being pretty ridiculous
525 2011-07-05 02:15:08 <BlueMatt> well its just as bad with returning an int
526 2011-07-05 02:15:22 <BlueMatt> hence why satoshi did the RPCError crap
527 2011-07-05 02:15:28 <BlueMatt> which has the string and int in it
528 2011-07-05 02:15:31 <BlueMatt> but thats also ugly
529 2011-07-05 02:15:38 <BlueMatt> you are throwing an object...wtf?
530 2011-07-05 02:15:46 <phantomcircuit> returning an int you can see all the possible error codes right there in the function
531 2011-07-05 02:15:55 <phantomcircuit> with exceptions you could be catching an exception 20 calls deep
532 2011-07-05 02:16:09 <BlueMatt> you can do the same for returning
533 2011-07-05 02:16:15 Fairuser is now known as AFK!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser
534 2011-07-05 02:16:24 <BlueMatt> return function's return, and down the rabbit hole you go
535 2011-07-05 02:16:29 <kgo> Hello all. I've fired up testnet-in-a-box. I'm trying to connect with a bitcoin client from another machine on my network. I tried "bitcoin -testnet -connect=192.168.1.101" but that didn't work. What should I be running?
536 2011-07-05 02:16:54 <BlueMatt> In any case, Im more comfortable with return int so thats what Ill do
537 2011-07-05 02:17:13 <phantomcircuit> yeah but it's possible to avoid the rabbit hole
538 2011-07-05 02:17:36 <phantomcircuit> either way exceptions are slow as hell (each one creates a call stack)
539 2011-07-05 02:22:00 gasteve has joined
540 2011-07-05 02:22:17 <BlueMatt> tcatm: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/381/files what you had in mind?
541 2011-07-05 02:22:43 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
542 2011-07-05 02:22:50 denisx has joined
543 2011-07-05 02:25:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, throwing integers?
544 2011-07-05 02:25:23 <phantomcircuit> plz2not
545 2011-07-05 02:25:28 <BlueMatt> no, huh
546 2011-07-05 02:25:34 <BlueMatt> returnig
547 2011-07-05 02:25:38 <BlueMatt> returning*
548 2011-07-05 02:25:44 dbasch has joined
549 2011-07-05 02:25:46 <phantomcircuit> that link says throw
550 2011-07-05 02:25:53 <phantomcircuit> throw DB_CORRUPT;
551 2011-07-05 02:25:57 <BlueMatt> ah you are right
552 2011-07-05 02:26:30 <phantomcircuit> unless DB_CORRUPT is an insane #define to new DbCorruptException
553 2011-07-05 02:26:31 <phantomcircuit> or something
554 2011-07-05 02:26:40 <picci> Tamo: pm, sorry i saw it like 20 min's late :D
555 2011-07-05 02:27:51 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
556 2011-07-05 02:28:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r9390431 / src/util.cpp : Merge pull request #379 from gavinandresen/nocommas ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/9390431ce49893cbdf23846edb4bdf72b3d4e830
557 2011-07-05 02:29:28 <phantomcircuit> uh
558 2011-07-05 02:29:49 <phantomcircuit> removing the commas is a change to the rpc api
559 2011-07-05 02:30:12 <phantomcircuit> which should possibly warrant something like setversion
560 2011-07-05 02:31:25 <phantomcircuit> has anybody considered versioning the rpc api?
561 2011-07-05 02:32:41 cyberdo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
562 2011-07-05 02:32:43 <marioxcc> phantomcircuit: there is a lot of work to be done
563 2011-07-05 02:33:00 <phantomcircuit> yes
564 2011-07-05 02:33:08 <phantomcircuit> i was wondering if anybody had considered it
565 2011-07-05 02:33:11 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ^
566 2011-07-05 02:33:56 <BlueMatt> yea, well rpc needs overhauled...
567 2011-07-05 02:34:14 <BlueMatt> in fact maybe Ill do that, add non-floats, etc
568 2011-07-05 02:34:27 <BlueMatt> maybe version, but that could go in http headers
569 2011-07-05 02:34:49 cyberdo has joined
570 2011-07-05 02:35:08 <BlueMatt> in any case, Im off to be, tcatm mind acking one of the pulls, or commenting again? jgarzik sipa, the same
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575 2011-07-05 02:44:30 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: I agree CocoaBitcoin commits would be nice to have here
576 2011-07-05 02:45:34 pyro_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
577 2011-07-05 02:45:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: rc2 tagged
578 2011-07-05 02:46:55 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
579 2011-07-05 02:47:02 <luke-jr> justmoon: I can probably hack my BitGit CIA stuff to trim the commit msg and append the URI-- I just thought I already had! :P\
580 2011-07-05 02:47:27 <justmoon> luke-jr, awesome!
581 2011-07-05 02:47:45 <Diablo-D3> heh, I just use github's built in CIA support
582 2011-07-05 02:48:40 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, I set up CIA's advanced filtering mechanism today so that it only prints the first line of the commit message, precisely because github's built-in feature sends the whole thing
583 2011-07-05 02:49:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: avoiding merge commits would be nice
584 2011-07-05 02:49:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: the merge itself, or just its children?
585 2011-07-05 02:49:34 <jgarzik> luke-jr: merge itself, same result as git log produces with --no-merges
586 2011-07-05 02:49:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: mine limits itself to 2-3 commits-- if there's more, it summarizes them
587 2011-07-05 02:49:39 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, the problem was that if you trim the message to only the first line, githubs link url gets cut off, so I had to add the full long url at the end, now it works, but shows both the long and short urls for single line commit messages
588 2011-07-05 02:49:46 <amiller> hey is there a pure javascript bitcoin wallet yet
589 2011-07-05 02:49:49 <luke-jr> jgarzik: hmm, not sure how easy that change would be
590 2011-07-05 02:49:54 <Diablo-D3> you shouldnt have commits longer than 72 characters anyhow
591 2011-07-05 02:50:10 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: sometimes a full description on lines 2+ is nice
592 2011-07-05 02:50:25 <Diablo-D3> no, see
593 2011-07-05 02:50:27 <Diablo-D3> I just dont give a fuck
594 2011-07-05 02:50:31 <luke-jr> good for you
595 2011-07-05 02:50:33 <Diablo-D3> if I write paragraphs of shit
596 2011-07-05 02:50:33 <luke-jr> don't read ti then
597 2011-07-05 02:50:34 <Diablo-D3> who cares
598 2011-07-05 02:50:44 <Diablo-D3> github cuts it off
599 2011-07-05 02:51:26 pyro_ has joined
600 2011-07-05 02:58:04 <luke-jr> hrm
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602 2011-07-05 02:59:26 <Joric> kgo, looks like testnet in a box only supported on linux http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4483.0 i'm trying to run two daemons with no luck
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606 2011-07-05 03:00:56 <kgo> Joric, thanks. Actually I got everything to work. 2 daemons on a debian vm. The only reason my windows box didn't connect was because I synced with the real testnet, and the chain was much longer. When I moved the .bitcoin/testnet directory out of the way, that command worked.
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609 2011-07-05 03:05:02 <Joric> bitcoin, y u no support 2 gui clients running simultaneously with different datadirs
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613 2011-07-05 03:08:44 <Joric> even if i run -daemon the second process exits after a while
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619 2011-07-05 03:16:21 <Tamo> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=26104.0
620 2011-07-05 03:17:06 <Joric> squatters...
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642 2011-07-05 03:42:25 <CIA-103> bitcoin: David Joel Schwartz hub_mode * r30bfa77af6f3 bitcoind-personal/src/ (net.cpp net.h): Implement a new option ("-hub") to work aggressively to acquire connections http://tinyurl.com/5wyrre7 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/30bfa77af6f3c007873a4c4775c23f7306e3fa8b
643 2011-07-05 03:42:25 <CIA-103> bitcoin: David Joel Schwartz rpc_keepalive * r29fff4577a2b bitcoind-personal/src/rpc.cpp: correct support for HTTP/1.0 and HTTP/1.1, including the proper use of keep alives http://tinyurl.com/65cgtyc http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/29fff4577a2b0310a525dfb7858801f45f3c1c72
644 2011-07-05 03:44:23 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|AFKBlow
645 2011-07-05 03:44:47 Fairuser is now known as AFKBlow!~Fairuser@static-50-53-33-113.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net|Fairuser|AFK
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657 2011-07-05 03:52:00 <jgarzik> luke-jr: are you splitting up and committing that stuff in http://davids.webmaster.com/~davids/bitcoin-3diff.txt ?
658 2011-07-05 03:52:13 Rabbit67890 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
659 2011-07-05 03:52:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pretty much every pool operator wants HTTP/1.1 keep-alive support, like, yesterday
660 2011-07-05 03:52:16 sacarlson1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
661 2011-07-05 03:52:20 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr eligius_sendfee * rf11485..7861f3 bitcoind-personal/src/ (init.cpp ui.cpp main.h main.cpp): (5 commits) http://tinyurl.com/43njjlo http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/shortlog/refs/heads/eligius_sendfee
662 2011-07-05 03:52:41 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nobody likes hub mode, though
663 2011-07-05 03:53:05 <rethaw> are you guys working on pool software?
664 2011-07-05 03:53:34 <jgarzik> rethaw: I was talking about bitcoind, but yes I also work on pool software
665 2011-07-05 03:53:45 MetaV has joined
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667 2011-07-05 03:54:57 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, what's the proper procedure when someone gets a DbRunRecoveryException
668 2011-07-05 03:55:45 has joined
669 2011-07-05 03:56:52 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: depends on the circumstances. we already run recovery at bitcoin startup, so minor problems are simply "run bitcoin again" you can also use the external utility db_recover
670 2011-07-05 03:57:14 <phantomcircuit> there's a guy in #bitcoin saying he's getting it on startup on debian
671 2011-07-05 03:57:23 <phantomcircuit> hopefully it's a simple version mismatch
672 2011-07-05 03:57:31 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: since wallet.dat is atomically checkpointed, removing everything but wallet.dat is the outside-of-bdb stupid-but-effective recovery
673 2011-07-05 03:58:17 <phantomcircuit> is this documented anywhere?
674 2011-07-05 03:58:44 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: bdb docs. it's a db4 "environment" so standard environment recovery
675 2011-07-05 03:58:45 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
676 2011-07-05 03:58:58 <kubhoosh> developers come and share your projects @ http://www.bitcoinsyndicate.com
677 2011-07-05 03:59:03 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: but the stupid-but-effective method is often easier to explain to average users
678 2011-07-05 03:59:13 pyro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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680 2011-07-05 04:02:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: various combo * rc92e39..d523d0 bitcoind-personal/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (12 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3go73zb http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/shortlog/refs/heads/combo
681 2011-07-05 04:02:24 slux has joined
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686 2011-07-05 04:06:45 <luke-jr> jgarzik: yes, I split 3diff.txt into about 4 or 5 branches
687 2011-07-05 04:06:47 estornudo has joined
688 2011-07-05 04:07:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I want hub mode. :p
689 2011-07-05 04:07:15 <luke-jr> stales give Eligius a bad name
690 2011-07-05 04:08:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Keepalive requires threading, of course.
691 2011-07-05 04:08:26 <Joric> is forum read-only? could anyone give me a voice? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=24067
692 2011-07-05 04:08:53 <rethaw> go to newbie forum and poke around
693 2011-07-05 04:09:01 <rethaw> a sticky there will make everything clear
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699 2011-07-05 04:12:27 <jgarzik> luke-jr: keep-alives do not necessarily require threading. plenty of single-process async I/O servers do them.
700 2011-07-05 04:13:00 <jgarzik> luke-jr: speaking generally, of course. threading may be the best route for bitcoind.
701 2011-07-05 04:13:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: well, I mean for bitcoind :p
702 2011-07-05 04:13:39 <luke-jr> the pre-threading one does'nt do async either
703 2011-07-05 04:14:40 <luke-jr> jgarzik: also, I made the -pollpidfile more generic, since it really has nothing to do with pushpool specifically
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712 2011-07-05 04:27:27 <lolwat`> is theymos ever here?
713 2011-07-05 04:27:36 <Diablo-D3> no cause hes a noob
714 2011-07-05 04:28:17 vigilyn has joined
715 2011-07-05 04:30:04 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lol
716 2011-07-05 04:30:09 warpi has joined
717 2011-07-05 04:30:20 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, because everybody is like HEY BRO FORUMS ARE SLOW
718 2011-07-05 04:30:28 <Diablo-D3> dude
719 2011-07-05 04:30:33 <Diablo-D3> I just want the powers to ban people
720 2011-07-05 04:31:43 <phantomcircuit> join #bitcoin
721 2011-07-05 04:32:00 <noagendamarket> lol
722 2011-07-05 04:32:07 <Rabbit67890> lolwat`:
723 2011-07-05 04:32:15 <phantomcircuit> i said
724 2011-07-05 04:32:16 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r90a907a17850 gentoo/net-p2p/ (6 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: re-add USE=eligius ported to 0.3.24+ http://tinyurl.com/3ekdyjb http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/gentoo_ebuild.git/commitdiff/90a907a17850f5a4afb9822fdb8221e61963c5d1
725 2011-07-05 04:32:18 <phantomcircuit> join #bitcoin
726 2011-07-05 04:32:37 <lolwat`> Rabbit67890, ?
727 2011-07-05 04:32:52 <Diablo-D3> yes and?
728 2011-07-05 04:33:40 <Rabbit67890> ?
729 2011-07-05 04:34:21 <Rabbit67890> btw what happened to bitcoin built in GPU miner
730 2011-07-05 04:35:44 <lolwat`> Rabbit67890, you said my name that is why i said ?
731 2011-07-05 04:35:46 <sacarlson> Rabbit67890: oh bummer they took that out?
732 2011-07-05 04:36:02 <Diablo-D3> Rabbit67890: it never had one
733 2011-07-05 04:36:10 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: yes it did
734 2011-07-05 04:36:12 <Diablo-D3> it has a _CPU_ miner
735 2011-07-05 04:36:15 freakazoid has joined
736 2011-07-05 04:36:17 <lolwat`> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25786.msg325574
737 2011-07-05 04:36:20 <Diablo-D3> but its a pile of shit, and slower than the rest
738 2011-07-05 04:36:24 <Rabbit67890> It had a testing version on q mac GPU miner
739 2011-07-05 04:36:26 <lolwat`> can someone help me understand what theymos is not understanding
740 2011-07-05 04:36:37 <lolwat`> er http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25786
741 2011-07-05 04:36:48 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: oh your correct it had a cpu minner
742 2011-07-05 04:36:51 <lolwat`> or in general what is not clear about that
743 2011-07-05 04:37:09 <Rabbit67890> My iPhone spellcheck is useless
744 2011-07-05 04:37:12 <Diablo-D3> hows this
745 2011-07-05 04:37:19 <Diablo-D3> if mtgox gets instant TX
746 2011-07-05 04:37:22 <Diablo-D3> I will stop using it.
747 2011-07-05 04:37:48 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: what is instant TX?
748 2011-07-05 04:38:23 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: they pay more for transactions so they get quicker movement?
749 2011-07-05 04:39:04 <lolwat`> maybe he was referring to my thread? sacarlson look at my thread and see if you can see what theymos doesn't understand :]
750 2011-07-05 04:39:20 <Diablo-D3> sacarlson: see lolwat's thread
751 2011-07-05 04:39:32 <lolwat`> Diablo-D3, huh why would you stop using it?
752 2011-07-05 04:39:42 <Diablo-D3> because its a security risk
753 2011-07-05 04:39:45 <lolwat`> ??
754 2011-07-05 04:39:46 <lolwat`> how
755 2011-07-05 04:39:59 <Diablo-D3> because I have not yet created a BDIC.
756 2011-07-05 04:40:06 <lolwat`> BDIC?
757 2011-07-05 04:40:27 thefiatfreezone has joined
758 2011-07-05 04:40:32 <lolwat`> did you even read the scheme? explain how it is a security risk
759 2011-07-05 04:41:25 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin deposit insurance company
760 2011-07-05 04:41:33 <Diablo-D3> lolwat`: because it requires me to trust people that I do not trust
761 2011-07-05 04:41:40 <lolwat`> who does it require you to trust??
762 2011-07-05 04:41:46 <lolwat`> i think you did not read or understand it...
763 2011-07-05 04:41:47 <sacarlson> lolwat`: Diablo-D3: oh cool looks like escrow multisign that I'm working on with groffer
764 2011-07-05 04:42:06 <lolwat`> sacarlson I think everything needed is in bitcoin right now
765 2011-07-05 04:42:10 <lolwat`> except nLocktime
766 2011-07-05 04:42:18 <Diablo-D3> a multisign escrow could work
767 2011-07-05 04:42:26 <Diablo-D3> but it'd be easier to just have a BDIC.
768 2011-07-05 04:42:30 Nesetalis has joined
769 2011-07-05 04:42:34 <lolwat`> Diablo-D3, you might want to read and understand it before saying stupid things
770 2011-07-05 04:43:13 <lolwat`> you would rather have an insurance company than a secure protocol that doesn't require any trust and noone can screw the other?
771 2011-07-05 04:43:22 <lolwat`> cool story bro, just use paypal then
772 2011-07-05 04:43:34 <Diablo-D3> lolwat`: because I'd run it and I only trust myself.
773 2011-07-05 04:43:36 <Rabbit67890> ^^
774 2011-07-05 04:43:42 <lolwat`> sacarlson, do you see something unclear in the scheme that causes others to doubt it?
775 2011-07-05 04:43:44 <sacarlson> lolwat`: well I can't seem to get the minners to accept the new nonstandard transaction to enable multisign but it will be open soon as seen is now already avalible on MulitCoin https://github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin
776 2011-07-05 04:44:27 <lolwat`> tbh im not terribly worried about that as I said last time I think multicoin has a stronger future anyway
777 2011-07-05 04:44:40 <lolwat`> don't waste too much time trying to get bitcoin miners to accept new t
778 2011-07-05 04:44:42 <lolwat`> new tx
779 2011-07-05 04:44:54 <lolwat`> the only thing is make it easy to reuse work
780 2011-07-05 04:45:17 <lolwat`> are you storing multicoin merkleroot in bitcoin blockchain so miners can mine multicoin for free if they mine bitcoin?
781 2011-07-05 04:45:30 <sacarlson> lolwat`: well if they don't then beertokens will take over that already accepts them http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.0
782 2011-07-05 04:45:43 <lolwat`> that is all you need IMO, if you do that
783 2011-07-05 04:46:06 <lolwat`> sacarlson, yes exactly, a better version supporting more scripts will take over, as long as you let miners mine both for free
784 2011-07-05 04:46:24 <lolwat`> so you don't have some kind of group/herd problem where noone wants to switch first
785 2011-07-05 04:47:11 <sacarlson> lolwat`: you must not understand beertokens then it's a preminted version of crypto-currency but other could follow http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9493.0
786 2011-07-05 04:47:22 <lolwat`> sacarlson, so, do you store merkleroots for beertokens/whatever in bitcoin blockchain, so miners can simultaneously mine both bitcoins and w/e else? this is crucial for it to take off IMO or else it is going to be hard
787 2011-07-05 04:47:42 <lolwat`> ok not beertokens, but w/e else is proposed in multicoin
788 2011-07-05 04:47:54 <sacarlson> lolwat`: yes that has been proposed
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791 2011-07-05 04:49:03 <sacarlson> lolwat`: all of these methods are up for proposal as they become functional and available https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_Chains
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793 2011-07-05 04:50:25 <sacarlson> they will all be a part of MultiCoin for testing and evaluation
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807 2011-07-05 05:18:01 <AlonzoTG> Before I spend two weeks implementing Bozo the Clown's Bitcoin Protocol, I was wondering if a more competent design is on the horizon?
808 2011-07-05 05:19:07 <shLONG> http://bitcoinsyndicate.com/index.php/topic,5.0.html
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811 2011-07-05 05:19:33 <phantomcircuit> AlonzoTG, no it's not
812 2011-07-05 05:19:34 <phantomcircuit> enjoy
813 2011-07-05 05:19:48 slux has joined
814 2011-07-05 05:19:57 <phantomcircuit> (also the network serialization code is necessary to calculate the hashes anyways, so that's 90% of the pita right there)
815 2011-07-05 05:20:02 <shLONG> http://bitcoinsyndicate.com/index.php/topic,3.msg0/boardseen.html#new
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820 2011-07-05 05:32:24 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr coinbaser * re9a0e4d7a25f bitcoind-personal/src/main.cpp: Execute command specified by -coinbaser when creating a new block, which can output data to control where the generation goes http://tinyurl.com/672oap7 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/e9a0e4d7a25f2a41641ce46011cabe1195a77285
821 2011-07-05 05:32:26 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr coinbaser * rb3fb0d04fc17 bitcoind-personal/src/main.cpp: coinbaser: replace %d in command line with available funds http://tinyurl.com/69sms8c http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/b3fb0d04fc17948b513d9f483f98599975b1683c
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828 2011-07-05 05:42:19 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr policy * r77b21e59ce81 bitcoind-personal/src/main.cpp: accept and relay non-standard transactions http://tinyurl.com/66ooswp http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/77b21e59ce81dbd8b5079f4880d066dd29dfc797
829 2011-07-05 05:42:20 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr policy * r13f3a3843cec bitcoind-personal/src/main.cpp: accept my own transactions (or those paying me) without a fee http://tinyurl.com/6guoj99 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/13f3a3843cece53cee05fdc2fe92e257d193d82d
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840 2011-07-05 06:00:05 <jgarzik> luke-jr: not sure what you're talking about, re -pollpidfile
841 2011-07-05 06:00:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I made it -blknotifypidfile
842 2011-07-05 06:01:20 <jgarzik> luke-jr: still don't know what you're talking about
843 2011-07-05 06:01:30 <denisx> jgarzik: it would replace the blkmond
844 2011-07-05 06:02:05 <jgarzik> denisx: what would replace blkmond?
845 2011-07-05 06:02:35 <denisx> jgarzik: the patch for bitcoind where you can add -blknotifypidfile
846 2011-07-05 06:02:55 <denisx> it was named pollpidfile before
847 2011-07-05 06:03:07 <jgarzik> denisx: ah. never heard of/seen such a patch.
848 2011-07-05 06:03:33 <denisx> http://davids.webmaster.com/~davids/bitcoin-4diff.txt
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850 2011-07-05 06:04:54 <jgarzik> denisx: I guess it depends on your pool setup. when I ran my pool, all my bitcoind's were remote for safety. blkmond running locally was, therefore, the lowest cost solution.
851 2011-07-05 06:05:23 <jgarzik> I wouldn't trust bitcoind on same node as pushpoold, in case you get hacked.
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868 2011-07-05 06:40:28 <cuddlefish> Gavin's donation address in profile:
869 2011-07-05 06:40:32 <cuddlefish> Gavin Andresen 15VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC 19541.95641595 BTC
870 2011-07-05 06:40:38 <cuddlefish> and somehow the faucet is dry.
871 2011-07-05 06:41:51 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: that actually the faucent input address, and gavin posted about needing to do some security management stuff because he wasn't comfortable leaving thousands of btc on the faucet webserver.
872 2011-07-05 06:42:14 <gmaxwell> (and it's not dry, and I don't think it has been dry recently at all)
873 2011-07-05 06:42:19 DD- has joined
874 2011-07-05 06:43:41 <cuddlefish> ah
875 2011-07-05 06:43:55 <cuddlefish> but 19k BTC?
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906 2011-07-05 07:29:04 <glassresistor> so mtgox was hacked again, someone just emptied out my account
907 2011-07-05 07:29:55 <glassresistor> they changed my pass, converted all the money to btc and withdrew it all
908 2011-07-05 07:29:56 <phantomcircuit> glassresistor, got proof?
909 2011-07-05 07:30:12 <glassresistor> phantomcircuit: define proof
910 2011-07-05 07:30:32 <glassresistor> my entire account got emptied out and i didn't do it
911 2011-07-05 07:30:50 <glassresistor> and i hadn't logged into gox in a week or so
912 2011-07-05 07:31:23 danbri has joined
913 2011-07-05 07:31:27 <sivu> so maybe it was your account that got hacked
914 2011-07-05 07:31:36 <phantomcircuit> glassresistor, screen shot?
915 2011-07-05 07:31:50 <phantomcircuit> just to be clear
916 2011-07-05 07:31:54 <phantomcircuit> im tempted to believe you
917 2011-07-05 07:32:02 <phantomcircuit> tempted is the wrong word
918 2011-07-05 07:32:11 <phantomcircuit> im inclined to believe you
919 2011-07-05 07:32:40 <glassresistor> how would i prove it?
920 2011-07-05 07:32:49 <glassresistor> screen shot of what?
921 2011-07-05 07:34:11 <doublec> glassresistor: what address were the coins sent to?
922 2011-07-05 07:34:12 <phantomcircuit> i guess not actually
923 2011-07-05 07:34:14 <glassresistor> phantomcircuit: do you work with mtgox? does anyone know if there is insurance or reimbursment?
924 2011-07-05 07:34:17 <phantomcircuit> long password?
925 2011-07-05 07:34:24 <glassresistor> 16 char randomly generated
926 2011-07-05 07:34:32 <glassresistor> stored in an encrypted directory
927 2011-07-05 07:36:00 <hvala> I think there is no way they can break that password from hash
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929 2011-07-05 07:36:30 <hvala> did you access mtgox through https?
930 2011-07-05 07:37:04 <glassresistor> hvala: of course, behind wpa2
931 2011-07-05 07:37:08 <glassresistor> or eth0
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933 2011-07-05 07:37:32 <hvala> that looks like you have been hacked to me
934 2011-07-05 07:37:49 <hvala> because on that side you did nothing wrong
935 2011-07-05 07:38:02 <hvala> or mtgox started keeping passwords in plain text
936 2011-07-05 07:39:02 <hvala> windows or linux?
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940 2011-07-05 07:39:57 <enquirer> if anyone else complains of same, it's probably mtgox
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942 2011-07-05 07:40:15 <hvala> glassresistor: do you use windows or linux?
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945 2011-07-05 07:41:57 <glassresistor> hvala: linux selinux as wel
946 2011-07-05 07:42:11 <glassresistor> im very secure, i do dev and web security for a living
947 2011-07-05 07:42:45 <hvala> ok, sorry
948 2011-07-05 07:42:59 <doublec> glassresistor: what address were the coins sent to?
949 2011-07-05 07:43:59 <doublec> glassresistor: I'm assuming you can look that up...
950 2011-07-05 07:44:03 <hvala> maybe your girlfriend or friend who nows a password? that gets even experts..
951 2011-07-05 07:44:16 <Zoiah> glassresistor: fyi, mtgox has no insurance or reimbursement. There's only pointing to 'stupid insecure users' until a large break is published.
952 2011-07-05 07:44:38 <hvala> knows..
953 2011-07-05 07:46:09 <Zoiah> But without more information, which might not be available to you, it's hard to say by outsiders where the break occurred.
954 2011-07-05 07:47:53 again is now known as tower
955 2011-07-05 07:50:47 <hvala> if it is hacked, it should be a server side installed script to collect plaintext passwords
956 2011-07-05 07:51:17 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
957 2011-07-05 07:51:31 <sturles> Firefox plugin, perhaps?
958 2011-07-05 07:51:35 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
959 2011-07-05 07:52:34 <hvala> sturles: yupp
960 2011-07-05 07:52:36 <hvala> maybe
961 2011-07-05 07:52:54 <hvala> but that would be a personal hack, not for mtgox
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965 2011-07-05 07:58:44 <enquirer> may be ask mtgox for access logs
966 2011-07-05 07:58:48 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
967 2011-07-05 07:59:36 <enquirer> when exactly hacker logged into account
968 2011-07-05 08:04:51 d1g1t4l has joined
969 2011-07-05 08:05:20 <doublec> the lack of response to 'what address were the coins sent to' makes me dubious there was a hack
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971 2011-07-05 08:08:45 <hvala> doublec: if he has no access to mtgox, he can not see to what address the coins were sent to, because he had dollars on account
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973 2011-07-05 08:09:13 <doublec> hvala: if he has no access to mtgox, how does he know coins were stolen?
974 2011-07-05 08:09:34 <hvala> don't know
975 2011-07-05 08:09:43 <hvala> good question
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978 2011-07-05 08:10:17 <hvala> but he said the password was changed, than he could know only if he restored the account
979 2011-07-05 08:10:25 <doublec> just the whole "I'm a security expert, I use selinux, I use encrypted dictionaries, directories, hashed passwords, it's my linving, I got hacked" sounds suspicious
980 2011-07-05 08:10:35 cacheson has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
981 2011-07-05 08:11:05 <doublec> and then not being able to provide basic information to track the issue
982 2011-07-05 08:11:14 <doublec> of course, he could be busy panicing, so who knows
983 2011-07-05 08:11:31 <doublec> I know I'd be digging into it rather than answering on irc so possibly that
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987 2011-07-05 08:12:15 <hvala> yes, panic, and we are probably not much help
988 2011-07-05 08:13:00 <enquirer> yeah should talk directly to mtgox
989 2011-07-05 08:13:05 <hvala> doublec: good analysis
990 2011-07-05 08:13:12 <hvala> :)
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1068 2011-07-05 10:25:41 <erus`> whats a suitable number of conformations before you can feel (fairly) sure a payment is legit
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1070 2011-07-05 10:26:52 <tcatm> 3..6
1071 2011-07-05 10:27:12 <erus`> that few :)
1072 2011-07-05 10:27:39 <tcatm> depends on amount. < 10 BTC should be fine with 2 or 3
1073 2011-07-05 10:28:10 <[Tycho]> < 10 BTC should be fine with 1-2 :)
1074 2011-07-05 10:28:28 <erus`> who is making the 40k BTC transactions on block explorer?
1075 2011-07-05 10:28:36 <erus`> drug lords?
1076 2011-07-05 10:29:24 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1077 2011-07-05 10:29:30 <[Tycho]> Bitcoin collectioners :)
1078 2011-07-05 10:29:31 wolfspraul has joined
1079 2011-07-05 10:30:04 <phantomcircuit> erus`, i would accept 1 confirmation for < 10 BTC
1080 2011-07-05 10:30:07 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1081 2011-07-05 10:31:01 <erus`> is there a rough guestimate of the number of bitcoins in circulation?
1082 2011-07-05 10:31:13 wolfspraul has quit (Client Quit)
1083 2011-07-05 10:31:16 <phantomcircuit> there is an exact number
1084 2011-07-05 10:31:17 <sipa> define circulation?
1085 2011-07-05 10:31:19 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,stats
1086 2011-07-05 10:31:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134849 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 222 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 7 hours, 4 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1575367.76743766
1087 2011-07-05 10:31:30 <phantomcircuit> 134849*50
1088 2011-07-05 10:33:16 <erus`> 6742450
1089 2011-07-05 10:35:06 <erus`> so a 40000 tx is like 0.75% of the total bitcoins
1090 2011-07-05 10:35:12 <erus`> thats lots
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1112 2011-07-05 10:54:15 <sturles> Looks like someone's spending wallet. The 40k transactions is what's left when a portion has been sent out.
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1114 2011-07-05 10:54:50 <sturles> I wish bitcoinexplorer had a tree function. Would make everything clearer.
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1116 2011-07-05 10:55:24 <enquirer> so what, if i spend 1BTC, entire world can see how much money is in my wallet?
1117 2011-07-05 10:55:49 <mtrlt> you don't have to spend anything
1118 2011-07-05 10:55:53 <sipa> all the world can see which coins you used for the transaction
1119 2011-07-05 10:55:56 <enquirer> because 39,999 change appears on block explorer?
1120 2011-07-05 10:55:56 <mtrlt> oyu can see every wallet's state right now
1121 2011-07-05 10:56:09 <mtrlt> i mean, addresses
1122 2011-07-05 10:56:11 <mtrlt> you can't see wallets.
1123 2011-07-05 10:56:14 <sipa> if you only had a 40000k BTC coin, yes there will be 39999 change
1124 2011-07-05 10:56:26 <sipa> not even addresses
1125 2011-07-05 10:56:50 <sturles> If you transfer all your coins to one address, people will be able to see what's left on that address, yes.
1126 2011-07-05 10:56:56 <sipa> though coins sent to the single address can be assumed to belong to the same owner
1127 2011-07-05 10:57:16 <sipa> but eg. with e-wallet services there is no reason for that even
1128 2011-07-05 10:57:55 <sturles> Your wallet have lot's of addresses. There is no reason to keep all at the same address.
1129 2011-07-05 10:58:23 [1]currentB has joined
1130 2011-07-05 10:59:40 <Diablo-D3> well
1131 2011-07-05 10:59:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah =/
1132 2011-07-05 11:00:01 <enquirer> so for large trnsfers, it's better (for privacy) to split to many addresses
1133 2011-07-05 11:00:03 <Diablo-D3> but thats why you send yourself random but normal values
1134 2011-07-05 11:00:30 currentB has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1135 2011-07-05 11:00:30 [1]currentB is now known as currentB
1136 2011-07-05 11:00:41 <enquirer> wait, even that can be traced
1137 2011-07-05 11:01:12 <enquirer> hmm drug lords not satisfied (
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1140 2011-07-05 11:04:40 <enquirer> our focus group)
1141 2011-07-05 11:05:05 <Diablo-D3> you mean the CIA
1142 2011-07-05 11:07:04 <enquirer> should make a wallet with many addresses, fund them independently with small sums, then transfer to another wallet with many small addresses
1143 2011-07-05 11:08:01 <enquirer> and do it over ~24 hours to minimize correlation
1144 2011-07-05 11:08:15 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1145 2011-07-05 11:08:52 <coderrr> enquirer,
1146 2011-07-05 11:09:08 <coderrr> relevant http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/patching-the-bitcoin-client-to-make-it-more-anonymous/
1147 2011-07-05 11:10:54 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1152 2011-07-05 11:15:59 <enquirer> great, hope it makes its way into mainstream client
1153 2011-07-05 11:16:02 justmoon has joined
1154 2011-07-05 11:16:50 <enquirer> it could be outright dangerous if everyone knew you have 40000 btc ...
1155 2011-07-05 11:17:11 <coderrr> yea
1156 2011-07-05 11:17:19 fnord0 has joined
1157 2011-07-05 11:17:46 <enquirer> quite an incentive to kidnap you and use hot iron decryption attack )
1158 2011-07-05 11:17:53 <coderrr> yep
1159 2011-07-05 11:18:58 <coderrr> wonder if any bitcoin banks will have under duress challenge/response phrases :p
1160 2011-07-05 11:21:40 <quellhorst> who ha 40k btc?
1161 2011-07-05 11:22:06 <coderrr> enquirer
1162 2011-07-05 11:22:15 <quellhorst> enquirer: damn, how long have you been into btc?
1163 2011-07-05 11:22:34 * coderrr heats up his hot iron
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1165 2011-07-05 11:26:20 <[Tycho]> That method is called "thermorectal cryptoanalysis" here
1166 2011-07-05 11:26:21 <sturles> enquirer: No thanks. Pollutes the block chain with unneccessary transactions, and will make you (or me) have to pay fees for large transactions due to size.
1167 2011-07-05 11:27:56 <enquirer> sturles: i'm financing my next drug shipment. think i care about polluting the block chain?
1168 2011-07-05 11:28:00 <sturles> coderrr: There is an error in your text. The official bitcoin client does not pick at random. It makes a smart pick.
1169 2011-07-05 11:28:20 <sturles> enquirer: No, not you.
1170 2011-07-05 11:28:45 <coderrr> sturles, i know, but its close enuf to random for the avg user
1171 2011-07-05 11:28:56 <coderrr> and it acutally does do a random shuffle along w some other criteria
1172 2011-07-05 11:29:15 <sturles> It is smart for an average user, leading to smaller fees and an optimal block chain. You do not disclose that.
1173 2011-07-05 11:29:24 <coderrr> sturles, smart is subjective
1174 2011-07-05 11:29:28 <coderrr> if you want anonymity its downright stupid
1175 2011-07-05 11:29:37 <sturles> coderrr: Your text is misleading and false.
1176 2011-07-05 11:29:46 <coderrr> i dont think so
1177 2011-07-05 11:29:57 <sturles> Bitcoins aren't anonymous.
1178 2011-07-05 11:30:10 <coderrr> sturles, did you read the whole thing before you drag me into an arguemnt ?
1179 2011-07-05 11:30:53 <sturles> I read enough bs that I didn't bother reading the rest.
1180 2011-07-05 11:30:59 <coderrr> sturles, k buddy
1181 2011-07-05 11:31:39 <sturles> If you could at least make the text factually correct, it may be worth it.
1182 2011-07-05 11:32:47 <sturles> The point you are making sums up to that Wikileaks don't do enough to anonymize donors.
1183 2011-07-05 11:33:02 <sturles> They coulkd easily make a random address for each visitor.
1184 2011-07-05 11:33:24 <coderrr> so enquirer how are things ?
1185 2011-07-05 11:33:33 <enquirer> i bought my first btc for cash from a guy on the street. at this point it's anonymous
1186 2011-07-05 11:33:45 <sturles> If you donate to an official addres, you are breaking your anonymity. It is obvious.
1187 2011-07-05 11:34:06 <sturles> enquirer: Sure he didn't take pictures?
1188 2011-07-05 11:35:03 <enquirer> not sure ... good you asked, reminded me i should go and kill him
1189 2011-07-05 11:35:42 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1190 2011-07-05 11:38:04 <enquirer> later i bought some from mtgox, and this is traceable to me, and it's in the same wallet .. is there an app to split/combine wallets?
1191 2011-07-05 11:39:06 <coderrr> enquirer, you could use my patch to send to another wallet
1192 2011-07-05 11:39:07 <sturles> Same wallet or same address?
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1194 2011-07-05 11:39:13 <coderrr> but then you might incur a tx fee
1195 2011-07-05 11:39:39 <coderrr> i think there is some work on importing/exporting privkeys (addresses) not sure if thats in any client yet though
1196 2011-07-05 11:40:12 <sturles> There is no automatic connection between keys in your wallet, but if you used the same address you broke anonymity rule #1.
1197 2011-07-05 11:40:40 <enquirer> same wallet, diff addresses of course
1198 2011-07-05 11:42:01 <coderrr> enquirer, create new wallet,use my patch to send from your mtgox receive address to an address in your new wallet
1199 2011-07-05 11:42:08 <enquirer> k
1200 2011-07-05 11:42:10 <coderrr> then you dont have to worry about mixing the two
1201 2011-07-05 11:46:54 <MrSam> hmm
1202 2011-07-05 11:46:55 <MrSam> mtgox
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1204 2011-07-05 11:49:54 <enquirer> i liked this: Chrome is just like a keylogger: it saves whatever you type in it and sents to Google.
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1210 2011-07-05 12:03:11 <phungus> you can change privacy settings in Chrome too
1211 2011-07-05 12:03:25 <phungus> it doesn't have to send anything anywhere
1212 2011-07-05 12:03:27 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1213 2011-07-05 12:03:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134865 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 206 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 57 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1575155.61888361
1214 2011-07-05 12:05:58 <quellhorst> look at the selloff
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1224 2011-07-05 12:18:36 <quellhorst> enquirer: so you better sell off your 40k btc before they go back down to $.70 each
1225 2011-07-05 12:19:00 <quellhorst> heck if btc hit $.10 i'd probably put $10k into it
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1229 2011-07-05 12:31:54 <phantomcircuit> britcoin's bank account is changing from Lloyds TSB to HSBC
1230 2011-07-05 12:32:26 <MrSam> good for you
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1249 2011-07-05 13:09:24 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: haha, it's scarey how close to my code that vanity generator is
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1255 2011-07-05 13:15:35 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and i just found the bug in my address logic because of it, lol
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1263 2011-07-05 13:24:10 <coderrr> jrmithdobbs, what rate do those vanity generates run at compared to mining ?
1264 2011-07-05 13:24:33 <jrmithdobbs> your question doesn't make sense
1265 2011-07-05 13:24:55 <coderrr> jrmithdobbs, like if card X can do 1Gh/s how many addrs can it generate a second ?
1266 2011-07-05 13:25:21 <jrmithdobbs> 0
1267 2011-07-05 13:25:35 <jrmithdobbs> seeing as noone's implemented it in CUDA/opencl?!
1268 2011-07-05 13:25:46 <coderrr> oh ic haha
1269 2011-07-05 13:25:48 <coderrr> damn
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1271 2011-07-05 13:27:45 <vegard> address generation on the CPU seems to be on the order of "not more than 10 per second"
1272 2011-07-05 13:27:56 <jrmithdobbs> not at all
1273 2011-07-05 13:28:01 <coderrr> oh damn x_x
1274 2011-07-05 13:28:04 <jrmithdobbs> more like 2.5-7k/sec per core
1275 2011-07-05 13:28:04 <vegard> not at all. please enlighten me.
1276 2011-07-05 13:28:27 <jrmithdobbs> depending on which code you're using, so long as it's not the bitcoin proper code
1277 2011-07-05 13:28:41 <vegard> duh
1278 2011-07-05 13:28:51 <vegard> you're right. I meant "not more than 10,000 per second"
1279 2011-07-05 13:29:30 <jrmithdobbs> if you're doing just genning of privkeys and dumping them with no encoding, ya, maxes about 10k/sec/core
1280 2011-07-05 13:30:05 <jrmithdobbs> if you're actually encoding them so they're usable it drops down to ~7.5k, and if you're actuall encoding the pubkeys ~2.5k
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1282 2011-07-05 13:31:02 <edcba> anyway start with "assuming some cpu can generate 1 billion addrs a second..."
1283 2011-07-05 13:31:37 <edcba> or do the inverse operation
1284 2011-07-05 13:31:39 <jrmithdobbs> doesn't work though because some gpus are great at sha256 but address gen requires a ripe160md as well
1285 2011-07-05 13:31:55 <edcba> at which rate should i worry
1286 2011-07-05 13:32:06 <edcba> ie starting with 2**160 down to the rate
1287 2011-07-05 13:33:00 B0g4r7 has joined
1288 2011-07-05 13:33:46 <vegard> worry about vanity addresses? :-P
1289 2011-07-05 13:34:02 <edcba> oh we were talking about vanity addrs
1290 2011-07-05 13:34:04 <edcba> damn lol
1291 2011-07-05 13:34:16 <jrmithdobbs> i'm sure he's worrying about how quickly keys can be generated
1292 2011-07-05 13:34:22 <jrmithdobbs> to force collisions
1293 2011-07-05 13:34:36 <edcba> collisions on vanity part ?
1294 2011-07-05 13:34:43 <jrmithdobbs> oh maybe you weren't
1295 2011-07-05 13:35:01 <jrmithdobbs> edcba: i meant collision of the whole address
1296 2011-07-05 13:35:16 <edcba> yes collisions on whole addr is completely out of question
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1298 2011-07-05 13:35:21 <jrmithdobbs> no it's not
1299 2011-07-05 13:35:24 <edcba> lol
1300 2011-07-05 13:35:28 Clipse has joined
1301 2011-07-05 13:35:34 <jrmithdobbs> it's very improbable
1302 2011-07-05 13:35:42 denisx has joined
1303 2011-07-05 13:36:30 <edcba> so there is a chance !
1304 2011-07-05 13:36:38 * edcba starts generating colliding addresses...
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1306 2011-07-05 13:37:30 <edcba> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA
1307 2011-07-05 13:37:48 <toxicFork> hi, trying to run bitcoind on a machine without /usr access, so using LD_LIBRARY_PATH after I downloaded the libs individually and placed them into a directory, but when I run bitcoind now I get a segfault
1308 2011-07-05 13:37:51 <edcba> how ppl react when you say "very improbable"
1309 2011-07-05 13:38:18 <jrmithdobbs> edcba: ecdsa keys are basically just a random number, so, start at 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff and work backwards
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1311 2011-07-05 13:39:02 <jrmithdobbs> it's a pretty huge range tho ;p
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1315 2011-07-05 13:41:36 <toxicFork> is there a collection of "libs necessary for bitcoind" in an archive or something?
1316 2011-07-05 13:42:11 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1317 2011-07-05 13:42:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134871 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 200 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 23 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1570074.41367906
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1328 2011-07-05 13:50:06 <Rocketfella> Is there a roadmap for the blockchain? I guess it grows exponentially before finally settling on a high constant growth rate, right?
1329 2011-07-05 13:53:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: see the PS in my post in vanitygen's thread
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1331 2011-07-05 13:55:12 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: no, i've seen the slowness without using the vanity patch
1332 2011-07-05 13:55:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: refilling keypool takes way longer than it should
1333 2011-07-05 13:55:50 fnord0 has joined
1334 2011-07-05 13:56:03 <sipa> ah, that's what you mean
1335 2011-07-05 13:56:21 <egecko> android now controls 40% of the mobile market.
1336 2011-07-05 13:56:30 <jrmithdobbs> ya, it should only be doing an EC addition for each key genned
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1339 2011-07-05 13:57:26 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i've seen keypool refill take >3 seconds and it's only genning 100 keys+addr encoded pub key pairs
1340 2011-07-05 13:57:54 <jrmithdobbs> (on a box with basically no cpu utilization at the time)
1341 2011-07-05 13:58:57 <sipa> i suppose sync issues with the db
1342 2011-07-05 13:59:14 <sipa> trying to write each key to wallet.dat separately
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1353 2011-07-05 14:17:24 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r20876d342b62 mining-proxy/htdocs/ (common.inc.php index.php): Raise timeout on work submission requests http://tinyurl.com/3qt9tls http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/20876d342b6238f2a7b68f04dcc9aa04cbcee734
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1357 2011-07-05 14:21:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: bah, i was trying to refactor the code a bit further so HaveKey and GetKey work on addresses instead of on public keys
1358 2011-07-05 14:21:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: so to get rid of mapPubKeys
1359 2011-07-05 14:22:18 <sipa> apparetly there is *ONE* place in the code where i actually need to be able to convert an address back to a pubkey
1360 2011-07-05 14:22:31 <sipa> SetDefaultReceivingAddress
1361 2011-07-05 14:23:15 <erus`> im getting a message saying i need to pay a fee before i can transfer some money
1362 2011-07-05 14:23:25 <erus`> how long do i have to wait to avoid the fee?
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1387 2011-07-05 14:47:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: thoughts on the 2/5 here that your patch kicks back as invalid?
1388 2011-07-05 14:47:48 <jrmithdobbs> http://pastebin.com/igp5QepJ
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1390 2011-07-05 14:49:04 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: those were obtained using a dumpprivkey of the same version?
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1395 2011-07-05 14:49:53 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: no, i'm debugging something else and it seems like 2/5-3/5 aren't correct, the ones that import import properly and show the expected address generated from the same code generating the privkeys
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1399 2011-07-05 14:50:16 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i see there's been debug stuff added to key.h but it's not spitting anything into testnet/debug.log
1400 2011-07-05 14:50:30 da2ce7 has joined
1401 2011-07-05 14:50:36 <mmartian> ;;bc.estimate
1402 2011-07-05 14:50:37 <gribble> Error: "bc.estimate" is not a valid command.
1403 2011-07-05 14:50:42 shLONG has quit ()
1404 2011-07-05 14:50:44 <mmartian> ;;bc,estimate
1405 2011-07-05 14:50:45 <gribble> 1572789.75237206
1406 2011-07-05 14:50:48 fnord0 has joined
1407 2011-07-05 14:51:11 oozyburglar has joined
1408 2011-07-05 14:51:28 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: erm, you have a != 32 in there again
1409 2011-07-05 14:51:50 <mmartian> ;;bc,stats
1410 2011-07-05 14:51:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134882 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 189 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 2 hours, 49 minutes, and 39 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1572789.75237206
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1412 2011-07-05 14:52:32 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: are you zero padding to force to 32 length?
1413 2011-07-05 14:52:42 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: that's the intention
1414 2011-07-05 14:53:03 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: where are you zero padding so I can pad the same way? ;p
1415 2011-07-05 14:53:05 mmoya has joined
1416 2011-07-05 14:53:16 <sipa> in GetSecret
1417 2011-07-05 14:53:48 <sipa> the output is resized to 32 bytes, and the result from bn2bin is written at the end of the output vector
1418 2011-07-05 14:53:59 <sipa> so it's front-padding with zeroes
1419 2011-07-05 14:54:01 <jrmithdobbs> k so at the front
1420 2011-07-05 14:54:04 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1421 2011-07-05 14:54:20 <jrmithdobbs> pretty lol, i just stripped my code out that did that not noticing you'd changed it on your new branch to do that, lol
1422 2011-07-05 14:54:37 <jrmithdobbs> oh well, easy fix, git checkout to the rescue
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1429 2011-07-05 15:02:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: kripz * r358163d7c985 mining-proxy/htdocs/ (common.inc.php config.inc.php.sample): Added an option for human time which will display "54 seconds/minutes/etc ago" http://tinyurl.com/3lalo2x http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/358163d7c9857338d4768cef0dcd5a6c68606abd
1430 2011-07-05 15:02:35 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * rc861f9a4a684 mining-proxy/htdocs/common.inc.php: Fix up human-time patch (code formatting, etc.) http://tinyurl.com/3rgtt9x http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/c861f9a4a68408f843d5c15823eea6435943edb6
1431 2011-07-05 15:02:39 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r757f936f1983 mining-proxy/htdocs/ (common.inc.php views/admin/dashboard.view.php): Add format_date_with_prefix function http://tinyurl.com/3mvjjns http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/757f936f19832d58b6f4f9c63a2fd063444b996e
1432 2011-07-05 15:02:43 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * rffff19a7586c mining-proxy/htdocs/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'human-time' http://tinyurl.com/3cewosw http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/ffff19a7586cb742296c19cb3890dadbb22c36cf
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1458 2011-07-05 15:43:34 <lfm> there are a lot of 0.00000001 amounts in the block chain, seems like a waste
1459 2011-07-05 15:45:10 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1460 2011-07-05 15:45:17 <b4epoche_> well, when 1 btc = $100,000,000 might not be a waste
1461 2011-07-05 15:45:46 <lfm> and till then it is
1462 2011-07-05 15:45:50 <mtrlt> lol
1463 2011-07-05 15:46:01 freakazoid has joined
1464 2011-07-05 15:46:03 <epscy> any day now
1465 2011-07-05 15:46:48 <lfm> of course when $1 buys 10000000BTC then it will really be a waste
1466 2011-07-05 15:46:49 <b4epoche_> next mtgox hack = drive the price up
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1473 2011-07-05 15:49:20 slux has joined
1474 2011-07-05 15:51:15 <lfm> 16137 addresses with 1 satoshi each
1475 2011-07-05 15:51:20 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
1476 2011-07-05 15:52:30 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1477 2011-07-05 15:52:49 <lfm> 31416 addresses with less than 100
1478 2011-07-05 15:53:15 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1479 2011-07-05 15:54:07 <b4epoche_> did Satoshi name such a worthless thing after himself or was the community's doing?
1480 2011-07-05 15:54:27 <nefario> community
1481 2011-07-05 15:55:00 <b4epoche_> what an honor ;-)
1482 2011-07-05 15:55:11 <lfm> was his idea to create the thing
1483 2011-07-05 15:55:15 mmoya has joined
1484 2011-07-05 15:56:00 <lfm> so it serves him right
1485 2011-07-05 15:56:16 <b4epoche_> what thing? the eight decimal places?
1486 2011-07-05 15:56:17 Teslah has joined
1487 2011-07-05 15:56:21 <lfm> ya
1488 2011-07-05 15:56:51 <mtrlt> the whole thing
1489 2011-07-05 15:57:25 <b4epoche_> well, people could have called 0.1 btc a satoshi, and maybe 0.0000001 btc a bush
1490 2011-07-05 15:58:01 <lfm> short a zero there
1491 2011-07-05 15:58:16 <b4epoche_> gotta give Bush a little credit ;-)
1492 2011-07-05 15:58:36 <lfm> we needed a name for the smallest unit
1493 2011-07-05 15:59:08 <lfm> dont need a name for 0.1btc
1494 2011-07-05 15:59:28 <b4epoche_> so, you should have named something worthless for something worthless
1495 2011-07-05 15:59:42 <lfm> so which would be the greater honor? a name thats usfull or not?
1496 2011-07-05 16:00:18 <b4epoche_> ever hear of a Benjamin?
1497 2011-07-05 16:00:23 <b4epoche_> that's worth something
1498 2011-07-05 16:00:26 <lfm> yup
1499 2011-07-05 16:01:04 <b4epoche_> and one satoshi could have been 10 nbtc
1500 2011-07-05 16:01:05 anarchyx has quit ()
1501 2011-07-05 16:01:17 <lfm> we needed a name for the smallest unit
1502 2011-07-05 16:01:27 <b4epoche_> 10 nbtc
1503 2011-07-05 16:02:03 <lfm> ya or a microcent, we did consider those, we got what stuck
1504 2011-07-05 16:02:17 <evelyn66> ;;bc,stats
1505 2011-07-05 16:02:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134893 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 178 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 7 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1575629.64656720
1506 2011-07-05 16:02:41 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1507 2011-07-05 16:03:01 <Optimo> lol market manipulation
1508 2011-07-05 16:03:10 <lfm> ?
1509 2011-07-05 16:03:18 <b4epoche_> Optimo: you manipulating?
1510 2011-07-05 16:03:21 <Optimo> that's just the thing I like to say
1511 2011-07-05 16:03:34 <Optimo> not me
1512 2011-07-05 16:03:36 <lfm> why?
1513 2011-07-05 16:03:57 <Optimo> because in this young market nobody knows shit about how it will behave so it's just lulz
1514 2011-07-05 16:04:07 <b4epoche_> hmm⦠maybe 0.00000001 btc should have been 1 optimo
1515 2011-07-05 16:04:23 Titeuf_87 has joined
1516 2011-07-05 16:05:58 <Optimo> hmm deepbit is getting near that 40% mark again
1517 2011-07-05 16:06:24 <lfm> maybe he will be able to drive the price up again then
1518 2011-07-05 16:06:27 skeledrew1 has joined
1519 2011-07-05 16:06:46 <b4epoche_> how's that?
1520 2011-07-05 16:07:18 <Optimo> I guess this might be late miner dumping
1521 2011-07-05 16:07:19 <lfm> market manipulation, nobody knows
1522 2011-07-05 16:07:24 <Optimo> tehre was no banking yesterday
1523 2011-07-05 16:07:30 <b4epoche_> drive price up means you need $$
1524 2011-07-05 16:07:33 <Optimo> http://falkvinge.net/2011/07/03/bitcoins-four-drivers-part-3-merchant-trade/
1525 2011-07-05 16:07:45 <lfm> only in the usa
1526 2011-07-05 16:07:57 <b4epoche_> well, more not-btc
1527 2011-07-05 16:07:58 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1528 2011-07-05 16:08:14 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1529 2011-07-05 16:08:20 <b4epoche_> yea, I'm surprised this plunge didn't happen sooner.
1530 2011-07-05 16:08:38 <b4epoche_> with mtgox down it seemed like there should be a build up of selling pressure
1531 2011-07-05 16:08:42 <lfm> your not surprized it happenes after the mtgox hack?
1532 2011-07-05 16:09:01 <Optimo> this reminds me - b4epoche you might know from your neck of the woods - coal miners were paid in coins that could only be spent int eh company store
1533 2011-07-05 16:09:14 gdoteof has joined
1534 2011-07-05 16:09:17 <Optimo> saw this on history channel
1535 2011-07-05 16:09:27 <b4epoche_> interesting, didn't know that
1536 2011-07-05 16:09:30 <Optimo> mtgox should open a store
1537 2011-07-05 16:09:47 <b4epoche_> lfm: I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger sell-off when mtgox first reopened
1538 2011-07-05 16:10:08 <b4epoche_> my wife used to work at Kmart and they paid in cash
1539 2011-07-05 16:10:13 <gdoteof> can someone give me an idea / approximation on the time it would take to bruteforce/crack a bitcoin addresses' private key?
1540 2011-07-05 16:10:18 <b4epoche_> to try to get you to spend it before leaving
1541 2011-07-05 16:11:04 <lfm> smart
1542 2011-07-05 16:11:15 <Optimo> gdoteof, I don't have a figure but it would probably cost you more to bruteforce it than you would stand to gain
1543 2011-07-05 16:11:35 <gdoteof> Optimo: clearly. not intending to.. just looking for some numbers
1544 2011-07-05 16:11:49 <gdoteof> i'm giving a presentation thursday 'bitcoin for anarchists'
1545 2011-07-05 16:11:50 <Optimo> yeah. the forums might have brushed on that...
1546 2011-07-05 16:11:51 <lfm> gdoteof: afaik the quickest way is to fund some math department to come up with a quicker way
1547 2011-07-05 16:11:53 <sipa> gdoteof: to brute-force a private key correspondig to a given address, on a single normal CPU, would take around 2.5*10^44 s
1548 2011-07-05 16:12:22 <sipa> that's 7.7*10^36 years
1549 2011-07-05 16:12:27 <gdoteof> sipa: great
1550 2011-07-05 16:12:33 <gdoteof> so pretty easy then =D
1551 2011-07-05 16:12:43 <snowing> unless you are in a hurry
1552 2011-07-05 16:12:49 <lfm> ya we'll get right on that
1553 2011-07-05 16:12:52 <b4epoche_> and taking Moore's Law into account?
1554 2011-07-05 16:13:23 <b4epoche_> extrapolated over 7*10^36 years of course
1555 2011-07-05 16:13:40 altamic has joined
1556 2011-07-05 16:13:43 <lfm> moore's rule of thumb
1557 2011-07-05 16:13:58 <sipa> taking moore's law into account (doubling every 18 months), it will take 221 years before we can do it in one second
1558 2011-07-05 16:14:20 <mtrlt> but doing it in one month is pretty good too.
1559 2011-07-05 16:14:25 <mtrlt> or would be
1560 2011-07-05 16:14:38 <sipa> ok, 189 years then
1561 2011-07-05 16:14:42 <lfm> so 210 years
1562 2011-07-05 16:14:47 <lfm> oh ok
1563 2011-07-05 16:14:54 <b4epoche_> wow, only have to extrapolate for 200 years...
1564 2011-07-05 16:15:10 <sipa> i took 0.3s as time for doing a ecdsa multiplication + hashing
1565 2011-07-05 16:15:15 <sipa> eh
1566 2011-07-05 16:15:17 <sipa> 0.3ms
1567 2011-07-05 16:15:28 <mtrlt> mmm
1568 2011-07-05 16:15:37 <sipa> i think it's typically more than that
1569 2011-07-05 16:15:39 <mtrlt> what if you do that on a gpu? :P
1570 2011-07-05 16:15:54 <sipa> no idea at all
1571 2011-07-05 16:16:00 dbasch has joined
1572 2011-07-05 16:17:12 <lfm> also depends which moore's law you use
1573 2011-07-05 16:17:12 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1574 2011-07-05 16:17:48 <sipa> let's say you could speed it up 100x using GPUs
1575 2011-07-05 16:18:05 <mtrlt> it wouldn't shave that many years.
1576 2011-07-05 16:18:14 <b4epoche_> well, people should be taking this like they do in physics⦠within an order of magnitude error
1577 2011-07-05 16:18:19 estornudo has joined
1578 2011-07-05 16:18:25 <lfm> was 2xspeed every year, then it was 18 months, now I think its even more
1579 2011-07-05 16:18:41 <mtrlt> would shave about 10 years.
1580 2011-07-05 16:18:45 erus` has joined
1581 2011-07-05 16:18:47 <snowing> moores law is transistor count, not processing speed, but maybe they go hand in hand
1582 2011-07-05 16:18:49 <mtrlt> from 189 years :P
1583 2011-07-05 16:19:19 <sipa> "number of components on an integrated circuit for a fixed price" or something is moore's law
1584 2011-07-05 16:19:36 <lfm> snowing: ya, consider transistor count as just adding cores
1585 2011-07-05 16:19:39 Spyrorocks`` is now known as Txyru
1586 2011-07-05 16:19:42 <b4epoche_> snowing: correct⦠but I would think hashing would scale well with trans count
1587 2011-07-05 16:19:47 Txyru has quit (Changing host)
1588 2011-07-05 16:19:47 Txyru has joined
1589 2011-07-05 16:19:54 <phedny_> so.. let's say 180 years with 1 gpu.. now take like 2500 gpu's allow you to get one in a month?
1590 2011-07-05 16:19:56 <snowing> b4epoche_: for sure
1591 2011-07-05 16:20:25 <mtrlt> phedny_: no
1592 2011-07-05 16:20:33 <mtrlt> phedny_: the 180 year calculation assumes moore's law.
1593 2011-07-05 16:20:40 <mtrlt> phedny_: without moore's law, it's like 10^24 years
1594 2011-07-05 16:20:43 <snowing> maybe one month, in 180 years
1595 2011-07-05 16:20:48 <mtrlt> yeah
1596 2011-07-05 16:20:52 <phedny_> ah, wait
1597 2011-07-05 16:20:52 <lfm> phedny_: the original 10^36 years was using all the processing power on earth in parallel already
1598 2011-07-05 16:20:54 <mtrlt> wait 180 years, then buy 2500 gpus ;)
1599 2011-07-05 16:21:13 <sipa> you'd need around 2^159 attempts
1600 2011-07-05 16:21:18 <snowing> or 181 and buy only 1250 :)
1601 2011-07-05 16:21:31 <sipa> and each attempt currently costs you around 0.3ms per CPU
1602 2011-07-05 16:22:21 <Optimo> with a chance at between 0 and 400,000 coins
1603 2011-07-05 16:22:28 <mtrlt> a more interesting question is, how long will it take to find a key to an address with money
1604 2011-07-05 16:22:31 <mtrlt> any address.
1605 2011-07-05 16:22:51 <Optimo> more addresses have closer to 0 coins I would guess
1606 2011-07-05 16:22:58 <mtrlt> yeah
1607 2011-07-05 16:22:59 <mtrlt> but still
1608 2011-07-05 16:23:00 <sipa> well, there are 21M BTC in total at that point
1609 2011-07-05 16:23:02 <b4epoche_> well, lfm had some stats earlier
1610 2011-07-05 16:23:09 <lfm> the 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 address is the current challenge address
1611 2011-07-05 16:23:19 <sipa> distributed (unevenly) over 2^160 addresses
1612 2011-07-05 16:23:30 <b4epoche_> [11:49:01] <lfm> 16137 addresses with 1 satoshi each
1613 2011-07-05 16:23:30 <b4epoche_> [11:50:35] <lfm> 31416 addresses with less than 100
1614 2011-07-05 16:23:32 <mtrlt> i think someone said that there are like 300k addresses in use currently
1615 2011-07-05 16:23:44 <b4epoche_> lfm: out of how many addresses?
1616 2011-07-05 16:24:16 <lfm> b4epoche_ about 230 thousand
1617 2011-07-05 16:24:24 <Optimo> we'll just strap-on better crypto later ;p
1618 2011-07-05 16:25:37 <b4epoche_> as long as the power of the network is greater than the power of one, I think we're fine
1619 2011-07-05 16:26:07 <lfm> yes spock
1620 2011-07-05 16:26:40 <mtrlt> i wonder why there are so many 1-satoshi addresses -_-
1621 2011-07-05 16:26:58 <lfm> dust spammers mainly Id think
1622 2011-07-05 16:26:58 <b4epoche_> spock?
1623 2011-07-05 16:27:04 * b4epoche_ hates Star Trek
1624 2011-07-05 16:27:26 <sipa> ok, within 112 years, the equivalent of one current 5970 would be able to earn 1 satoshi per year of ecdsa-key-cracking
1625 2011-07-05 16:27:31 <lfm> b4epochesounded like you were paraphrasing "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the one"
1626 2011-07-05 16:27:55 <upb> hmm http://bitcoinity.org/markets?theme=light
1627 2011-07-05 16:28:02 <upb> ^- this info is totally inconsistent :/
1628 2011-07-05 16:28:06 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
1629 2011-07-05 16:28:15 <b4epoche_> lfm: ah, spock said that?
1630 2011-07-05 16:28:17 <mtrlt> assuming ecdsa isn't broken :-)
1631 2011-07-05 16:28:22 <mtrlt> during those 112 years
1632 2011-07-05 16:28:23 <comboy> upb: mtgox api went down again
1633 2011-07-05 16:28:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: i just found a bug in v0.3.24rc2
1634 2011-07-05 16:28:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: as did I
1635 2011-07-05 16:28:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: you mean pull 383?
1636 2011-07-05 16:28:39 <upb> oh
1637 2011-07-05 16:28:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes
1638 2011-07-05 16:28:54 <b4epoche_> on three⦠present your bug.
1639 2011-07-05 16:29:02 <b4epoche_> lets see if they're the same
1640 2011-07-05 16:29:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: arg ok, well Im not gonna bother building rc2, Ill just let someone pull that and 384 and then Ill build rc3
1641 2011-07-05 16:29:55 <upb> comboy: :D:D
1642 2011-07-05 16:30:10 <b4epoche_> a release candidate of a beta of an alpha?
1643 2011-07-05 16:30:19 <lfm> mtrlt thats why I said the quickest way is probably to fund a math department
1644 2011-07-05 16:30:27 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1645 2011-07-05 16:30:30 <mtrlt> lfm: :D
1646 2011-07-05 16:30:31 <sipa> b4epoche_: what's the alpha?
1647 2011-07-05 16:30:43 darbsllim has joined
1648 2011-07-05 16:30:49 <b4epoche_> bitcoin client sure feels like an alpha
1649 2011-07-05 16:31:09 <BlueMatt> its not really
1650 2011-07-05 16:31:18 <BlueMatt> its pretty much beta
1651 2011-07-05 16:31:26 <BlueMatt> it is feature-complete
1652 2011-07-05 16:31:27 <sipa> alpha typically means that there are large pieces of functionality missing
1653 2011-07-05 16:31:48 * b4epoche_ doesn't see it as feature complete
1654 2011-07-05 16:31:50 <lfm> when do we get 0.4rc?
1655 2011-07-05 16:32:02 <sipa> lfm: soon after 0.3.24, probably
1656 2011-07-05 16:32:10 <BlueMatt> lfm: when we get (finally) 0.3.24 out the door
1657 2011-07-05 16:32:26 <b4epoche_> I guess it all depends on what features the client should have.
1658 2011-07-05 16:32:34 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1659 2011-07-05 16:32:35 <b4epoche_> I'd call bitcoind feature complete
1660 2011-07-05 16:32:51 <BlueMatt> well it fully implements bitcoin
1661 2011-07-05 16:32:58 <BlueMatt> it just doesnt have all the options people might want
1662 2011-07-05 16:33:03 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1663 2011-07-05 16:33:07 <BlueMatt> hence its beta imo, but thats fairly irrelevant
1664 2011-07-05 16:33:30 koleg has joined
1665 2011-07-05 16:33:33 <sipa> according to google, beta means "fully mature"
1666 2011-07-05 16:33:43 <sipa> according to microsoft, beta means "probably crashes"
1667 2011-07-05 16:34:04 * b4epoche_ only listens to Apple
1668 2011-07-05 16:34:06 <BlueMatt> according to me, beta means bitcoin's current state, but everyone has their own beta definition
1669 2011-07-05 16:34:22 <BlueMatt> according to apple, everything means feature incomplete
1670 2011-07-05 16:34:23 <mtrlt> sipa: so, all microsoft products are beta :o
1671 2011-07-05 16:34:34 <sipa> mtrlt: edlin is pretty stable by now
1672 2011-07-05 16:34:37 * b4epoche_ 's definition of alpha is anything he does
1673 2011-07-05 16:34:38 <mtrlt> lol
1674 2011-07-05 16:34:48 <mtrlt> it damn well should be. :P
1675 2011-07-05 16:35:28 <b4epoche_> by the time something gets close to beta I'm bored of it and have moved on
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1678 2011-07-05 16:37:03 <diki> i am wondering...why does jgarzik make his works so complicated...such as using a struct which is a member of another struct and the like
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1680 2011-07-05 16:37:23 <diki> even though i may not know C, i still think many of these pointers and such can be avoided
1681 2011-07-05 16:37:33 <nanotube> compartmentalization is good. :)
1682 2011-07-05 16:37:33 <BlueMatt> what are you talking about?
1683 2011-07-05 16:38:25 <b4epoche_> diki: get to work proceduralizing the code...
1684 2011-07-05 16:38:37 <b4epoche_> most of the classes and crap could be avoided too
1685 2011-07-05 16:38:43 <lfm> diki what code is that?
1686 2011-07-05 16:38:59 <diki> well...his miner and pushpoold
1687 2011-07-05 16:41:21 <lfm> diki you ever seen the bashminer?
1688 2011-07-05 16:41:28 <diki> bashminer?
1689 2011-07-05 16:41:30 <diki> never heard ofi
1690 2011-07-05 16:41:32 <diki> of it
1691 2011-07-05 16:41:40 <lfm> that is simple code if that what you like
1692 2011-07-05 16:42:48 <BlueMatt> if you dont like compartmentalization, you should check out the bitcoin client, it is so easy to read ;)
1693 2011-07-05 16:43:07 <diki> oh yah...it's super duper easy to read
1694 2011-07-05 16:43:28 <BlueMatt> and now you know why jgarzik codes that way
1695 2011-07-05 16:43:34 <diki> when i saw this...(*a)(*b)something i almost fell of the chair
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1697 2011-07-05 16:43:54 <BlueMatt> oh you mean just general use of pointers
1698 2011-07-05 16:44:00 <BlueMatt> well that makes it much more efficient
1699 2011-07-05 16:44:07 <BlueMatt> than having to copy stuff all over the place
1700 2011-07-05 16:44:09 <diki> i am talking about the bitcoin client
1701 2011-07-05 16:44:36 <diki> inline pthread_t CreateThread(void(*pfn)(void*), void* parg, bool fWantHandle=false)<-
1702 2011-07-05 16:44:55 <lfm> ya so?
1703 2011-07-05 16:45:08 <diki> void(*pfn)(void*)<-wtf?
1704 2011-07-05 16:45:29 <lfm> pointer to a function that takes a pointer?
1705 2011-07-05 16:45:30 <diki> also called...a function pointer or sumtin
1706 2011-07-05 16:46:08 <BlueMatt> yea a pointer to a function, that takes a pointer as a param, whats so ugly about that?
1707 2011-07-05 16:46:17 * b4epoche_ hates people giving {'s their own damn line⦠what a waste!
1708 2011-07-05 16:46:17 <mtrlt> well, function pointers in C _are_ ugly
1709 2011-07-05 16:46:24 <diki> it's not so much as ugly but hard to understand
1710 2011-07-05 16:46:27 <lfm> I seen much worse
1711 2011-07-05 16:46:48 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: now that I agree with, a { on the same line is much more readable
1712 2011-07-05 16:46:50 <mtrlt> b4epoche_: and i hate when i can't distinguish one-line {}less blocks and multiline ones at one glance :-)
1713 2011-07-05 16:46:58 <lfm> if your talking about starting threads, its the obvious way to go
1714 2011-07-05 16:47:09 <diki> an example of minerd -> struct cgpu_info *cgpu = thr_info[work->thr_id].cgpu;<-it's going ot take me a lot of time to figure out how this works
1715 2011-07-05 16:47:24 BTCTrader_away is now known as BTCTrader
1716 2011-07-05 16:47:27 <diki> and what it mean
1717 2011-07-05 16:47:30 <diki> s
1718 2011-07-05 16:48:49 <diki> it's cool it works under windows...but when i look under the hood..hard for me to alter it
1719 2011-07-05 16:49:04 <lfm> diki ok, it might have been written so its easier for you to understand, but I dont think that was a primary criteria when satoshi was writing it
1720 2011-07-05 16:49:09 <wasabi> Use a different miner. :)
1721 2011-07-05 16:49:19 <diki> every other miner is python...even harder
1722 2011-07-05 16:49:21 <wasabi> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23506.0
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1724 2011-07-05 16:49:29 <wasabi> .Net
1725 2011-07-05 16:49:30 <diki> except hashkill, but that is another story
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1727 2011-07-05 16:49:38 <wasabi> C#, etc etc.
1728 2011-07-05 16:49:39 <lfm> diki look up bashminer, its not in python
1729 2011-07-05 16:49:41 <wasabi> And a bit of C++/CLI.
1730 2011-07-05 16:50:03 <wasabi> What's your project anyways?
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1750 2011-07-05 17:08:40 <lebish> anyone know the *bsd equiv of MSG_DONTWAIT?
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1753 2011-07-05 17:10:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pong
1754 2011-07-05 17:10:08 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r3b2617c / (lib/rpc/getwork.js lib/rpc/jsonrpcserver.js): Added block submission and extra nonce to getwork. (+6 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/mEcOJV https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/3b2617ca8b6fb3c934263815bfc8134c7280a0ad
1755 2011-07-05 17:10:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: <BlueMatt> sipa: arg ok, well Im not gonna bother building rc2, Ill just let someone pull that and 384 and then Ill build rc3
1756 2011-07-05 17:10:52 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1757 2011-07-05 17:11:02 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that being 383
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1760 2011-07-05 17:12:31 <erus`> jgarzik: how do i build and install this? https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
1761 2011-07-05 17:12:40 <erus`> i dont know much about python modules
1762 2011-07-05 17:12:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r3f0950e / (src/makefile.mingw src/makefile.osx src/makefile.unix): Revert "Make UPnP default on Bitcoin but not on Bitcoind." ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3f0950ea019ad43c2a8fc79c2aa61845003bd4dc
1763 2011-07-05 17:12:46 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r0992399 / (contrib/gitian-win32.yml contrib/gitian.yml): Enable UPnP by default on bitcoin, but not on bitcoind (on gitian) ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/09923991e58e3c7f92cbcf1a7cf89a8bd5304d15
1764 2011-07-05 17:12:46 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rbb0d9ce / (5 files in 2 dirs): Merge pull request #384 from TheBlueMatt/upnp ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/bb0d9ce2264c3b50d11850491c800654abffa1a5
1765 2011-07-05 17:14:05 <jgarzik> sipa: what is pull req #383 about? there is very little description of the problem at hand. what synchronization?
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1768 2011-07-05 17:14:42 <sipa> jgarzik: effectively, you cannot change the default address from the GUI
1769 2011-07-05 17:14:50 <sipa> it updates in the GUI, but that's it
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1780 2011-07-05 17:22:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr force_send * rc723843922ab bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h noui.h rpc.cpp): don't automatically include fees via JSON-RPC, and allow forcing them to send with under the 'minimum' http://tinyurl.com/3lyqjya http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/c723843922aba082fab29aff14de5a48d92b1efc
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1786 2011-07-05 17:23:31 <erle-> does makefile.linux-mingw stand for "linux and mingw"?
1787 2011-07-05 17:23:39 <erle-> or should i use makefile.unix on linux?
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1790 2011-07-05 17:24:05 <BlueMatt> linux-mingw means build for mingw on linux
1791 2011-07-05 17:24:08 <BlueMatt> ie crosscompile
1792 2011-07-05 17:24:12 <erle-> ok
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1808 2011-07-05 17:32:24 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * rc3203cd9b363 bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h noui.h rpc.cpp): Merge branch 'force_send' into combo http://tinyurl.com/5rntncq http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/c3203cd9b363ce37b092d87b46ff9a37672df04a
1809 2011-07-05 17:32:25 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r41a7b8a2ca8d bitcoind-personal/src/ (init.cpp main.cpp main.h ui.cpp): Merge branch 'eligius_sendfee' into combo http://tinyurl.com/636axcc http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/41a7b8a2ca8dbc35e5fb53d6ee9060b79b17ebe4
1810 2011-07-05 17:32:26 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r048ebbe9489c bitcoind-personal/src/serialize.h: pszSubVer .ljr2 http://tinyurl.com/5smo4yt http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/048ebbe9489c9baeb304d69b7cb9a75dba016dda
1811 2011-07-05 17:33:51 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: oh that's fun fun, if a json given to importwallet has keys as addr and addresses as sec it doesn't give any errors but doesn't do anything either
1812 2011-07-05 17:34:25 <jrmithdobbs> well, other than trigger the rescan code
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1817 2011-07-05 17:41:58 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rc70be9c / package.json : package.json converted tabs to spaces. - http://bit.ly/iKgrxZ https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/c70be9ca05a7b5bedce5f77a8bba4757ed7f47a6
1818 2011-07-05 17:41:59 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r1226ec1 / (package.json bin/bitcoinjs): Added command line utility "bitcoinjs". - http://bit.ly/mHNBbh https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/1226ec1ac4546243eacbb8a431f497ca6b8a26e8
1819 2011-07-05 17:44:07 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: hmmm :S
1820 2011-07-05 17:45:05 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: btw, i figured out what i'd been banging my head against a wall with in my test code ....
1821 2011-07-05 17:45:22 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: I had somehow angered vi and replaced the 'q' in the base58map with 'e' at some point and never noticed
1822 2011-07-05 17:45:25 <jrmithdobbs> lol
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1830 2011-07-05 17:51:50 <CIA-103> Bitcoin: Matt Corallo TheBlueMatt-bitcoin * r11f0b0a / contrib/gitian.yml : f - http://bit.ly/mwP5Cv https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/11f0b0ac57b90bd8dc650f35db0d58698bc6d2c5
1831 2011-07-05 17:52:08 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: that sounds like a hard one to track down...
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1834 2011-07-05 17:54:42 <lfm> that'll teach you to use VI, grin
1835 2011-07-05 17:55:53 <lfm> of course emacs would never do that to you! duck
1836 2011-07-05 17:56:12 <B0g4r7> http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/curves.jpg
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1838 2011-07-05 18:00:54 <RBecker> ;;bc,stats
1839 2011-07-05 18:00:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134900 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 171 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 0 hours, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1569635.09283660
1840 2011-07-05 18:02:01 <B0g4r7> Is it easy or possible to "split a wallet", and move some coins into another wallet file?
1841 2011-07-05 18:02:10 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r6c1e5ae / src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl : Add new macros to quash verbosity of some rotates - http://bit.ly/ld2xWp https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/6c1e5ae9bb056a8e7ea98696b831e9291f271f89
1842 2011-07-05 18:02:11 <B0g4r7> Without performing a tx.
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1854 2011-07-05 18:18:06 <lfm> B0g4r7: normally no but I think there aree some new utilities comming out to do that stuff. better to just performa a tranaction tho
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1856 2011-07-05 18:19:15 <diki> erm...for just a few days, the bitcoin folder with the blocks has grown over 130 megabytes
1857 2011-07-05 18:19:24 <diki> i thought the blocks were just kilobytes
1858 2011-07-05 18:20:55 <lfm> most are, ya, and 144 blocks / day
1859 2011-07-05 18:21:07 erle64- has joined
1860 2011-07-05 18:21:16 <lfm> also wallet addresses and lables
1861 2011-07-05 18:21:53 <lfm> also databes logs (generally cleaned up on restarts)
1862 2011-07-05 18:22:22 <lfm> database
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1867 2011-07-05 18:26:39 <gdoteof> whats the best bitcoin for vps host?
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1874 2011-07-05 18:36:38 <joepie91> if anyone has the time, http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=26278.0
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1876 2011-07-05 18:38:35 <BlueMatt> theoretically possible, but still crazy, crazy hard to the point that it is impossible
1877 2011-07-05 18:38:55 <joepie91> mm
1878 2011-07-05 18:38:59 <joepie91> the issue is
1879 2011-07-05 18:39:08 <joepie91> say that computing power would take a massive jump
1880 2011-07-05 18:39:12 <mtrlt> well even assuming moore's law, it'd take like 180 years
1881 2011-07-05 18:39:20 <joepie91> there is no way to replace the address generation system
1882 2011-07-05 18:39:23 <joepie91> with something stronger, right?
1883 2011-07-05 18:39:24 <mtrlt> sipa calculated it like a couple hours ago
1884 2011-07-05 18:39:40 <joepie91> mm, do you have the calculation for that somewhere?
1885 2011-07-05 18:39:50 <mtrlt> do it yourself. there are 2^160 different addresses
1886 2011-07-05 18:39:58 <BlueMatt> ;;calc 2^(32*8)
1887 2011-07-05 18:39:58 <gribble> 2^(32 * 8) = 1.15792089 * 10^(77)
1888 2011-07-05 18:40:01 <mtrlt> assume 0.3ms for generating an address.
1889 2011-07-05 18:40:04 <BlueMatt> there are that many potential addresses
1890 2011-07-05 18:40:17 <BlueMatt> so the chance of you finding a useful one with a ton of btc is, say 1000 over that
1891 2011-07-05 18:40:19 <mtrlt> BlueMatt: why 2^128?
1892 2011-07-05 18:40:20 <BlueMatt> have fun trying
1893 2011-07-05 18:40:24 <mtrlt> isn't it 2^160
1894 2011-07-05 18:40:26 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: that is the privkey size
1895 2011-07-05 18:40:32 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry yea addresses, so yea
1896 2011-07-05 18:40:36 <mtrlt> isn't the private key 256 bit
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1898 2011-07-05 18:40:46 <BlueMatt> less, but even less than that because its sha256 first
1899 2011-07-05 18:40:55 <BlueMatt> yes, it is 256 bitc
1900 2011-07-05 18:40:59 <BlueMatt> aka 32 bytes
1901 2011-07-05 18:41:01 <BlueMatt> == 32*8
1902 2011-07-05 18:41:05 <mtrlt> um
1903 2011-07-05 18:41:06 again is now known as tower
1904 2011-07-05 18:41:06 <mtrlt> yea
1905 2011-07-05 18:41:12 * joepie91 lost
1906 2011-07-05 18:41:17 <mtrlt> i have a bad calculator installed in my brain, sry :P
1907 2011-07-05 18:41:17 <joepie91> I'm not great at maths :P
1908 2011-07-05 18:41:45 <BlueMatt> assuming you check 10,000 addresses after each round...
1909 2011-07-05 18:41:48 <BlueMatt> ;;calc 10000/2^160
1910 2011-07-05 18:41:48 <mtrlt> well then either 1) learn more or 2) don't think about anything that requires math
1911 2011-07-05 18:41:49 <gribble> 10,000 / (2^160) = 6.84227766 * 10^(-45)
1912 2011-07-05 18:41:54 <BlueMatt> which is effectively 0
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1914 2011-07-05 18:42:17 * copumpkin is amused by dividing 256 by 8 to get 32 bytes, then multiplying by 8 again to get 256 bits to raise 2 to that power :)
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1916 2011-07-05 18:42:52 <b4epoche> so, we have the white hats generate tons of empty addresses so the black hats have a better chance of finding one, but then there's a 99.999% it's empty ;-)
1917 2011-07-05 18:42:53 <mtrlt> BlueMatt: rounds? what do rounds have to do with this :p
1918 2011-07-05 18:42:59 <joepie91> the point is
1919 2011-07-05 18:43:02 <joepie91> what if you are not generating one
1920 2011-07-05 18:43:07 <joepie91> but just generating infinitely
1921 2011-07-05 18:43:13 <joepie91> checking every address for having funds
1922 2011-07-05 18:43:14 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: well I just know 32 more readily because Ive been dealing with privkey encryption and I know the privkey is [0] to [31]
1923 2011-07-05 18:43:17 <joepie91> and if found, stealing them?
1924 2011-07-05 18:43:17 <mtrlt> joepie91: you can generate addresses but generating one that already has money is VERY improbable.
1925 2011-07-05 18:43:27 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: fair enough :)
1926 2011-07-05 18:43:33 <mtrlt> joepie91: however, if you find one, you can use the money ofc.
1927 2011-07-05 18:43:34 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: well by rounds I mean generate a privkey, hash with sha256, and hash with ripemd160
1928 2011-07-05 18:43:51 <BlueMatt> joepie91: its just too astronomically unlikely for it to be reasonable
1929 2011-07-05 18:44:08 <joepie91> now assuming it would somehow become possible, is there any way to replace the address generation algorhithm with a stronger algo?
1930 2011-07-05 18:44:09 <BlueMatt> joepie91: also, assuming you do do it, you would still make more money mining like a legitimate persion (with a botnet ;)
1931 2011-07-05 18:44:14 <joepie91> mm
1932 2011-07-05 18:44:59 alfakini has joined
1933 2011-07-05 18:45:18 <mtrlt> BlueMatt: so, how do you check multiple addresses with one "round" o_O
1934 2011-07-05 18:46:57 <b4epoche> was satoshi have discussions like this long before he published his paper?
1935 2011-07-05 18:47:25 sYuNh has joined
1936 2011-07-05 18:47:26 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1937 2011-07-05 18:48:32 <b4epoche> I mean was he vetting all this stuff or simply trying to overcome the shortcomings of prior attempts?
1938 2011-07-05 18:50:13 gjs278 has joined
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1940 2011-07-05 18:51:14 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be,
1941 2011-07-05 18:51:14 <sYuNh> bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1942 2011-07-05 18:51:14 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1943 2011-07-05 18:51:14 <sYuNh> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1944 2011-07-05 18:51:14 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1945 2011-07-05 18:51:15 <sYuNh> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1946 2011-07-05 18:51:17 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be,
1947 2011-07-05 18:51:18 <sYuNh> bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1948 2011-07-05 18:51:18 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1949 2011-07-05 18:51:18 <sYuNh> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1950 2011-07-05 18:51:18 <sYuNh> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1951 2011-07-05 18:51:18 <sYuNh> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1952 2011-07-05 18:51:25 sYuNh is now known as sYuNHi
1953 2011-07-05 18:51:35 manifold_ has joined
1954 2011-07-05 18:51:41 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be,
1955 2011-07-05 18:51:42 <sYuNHi> bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1956 2011-07-05 18:51:42 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1957 2011-07-05 18:51:43 <sYuNHi> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1958 2011-07-05 18:51:43 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1959 2011-07-05 18:51:44 <sYuNHi> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1960 2011-07-05 18:51:44 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be,
1961 2011-07-05 18:51:45 <sYuNHi> bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1962 2011-07-05 18:51:45 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1963 2011-07-05 18:51:46 <sYuNHi> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1964 2011-07-05 18:51:46 <sYuNHi> William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be,
1965 2011-07-05 18:51:46 <MrSam> wow
1966 2011-07-05 18:51:47 <sYuNHi> neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com/fr/profile/william.waisse
1967 2011-07-05 18:51:51 <MrSam> hmm
1968 2011-07-05 18:51:54 <MrSam> 20:49:35 Ignoring ALL from sYuNHi
1969 2011-07-05 18:52:13 <bittwist> gg jgarzik
1970 2011-07-05 18:52:20 Fireball has joined
1971 2011-07-05 18:52:20 Fireball has quit (Changing host)
1972 2011-07-05 18:52:20 Fireball has joined
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1974 2011-07-05 18:54:26 alfakini has left ()
1975 2011-07-05 18:56:09 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
1976 2011-07-05 18:56:47 <joepie91> lol, someone mad
1977 2011-07-05 18:57:56 Teslah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1978 2011-07-05 18:58:33 <BlueMatt> Im always impressed at people's ability to google to find people's names
1979 2011-07-05 18:59:18 <neofutur> this was sharkasgo2
1980 2011-07-05 18:59:27 <neofutur> i just banned him from #mtgox 3 mins before
1981 2011-07-05 18:59:46 Breign has joined
1982 2011-07-05 19:00:21 Teslah has joined
1983 2011-07-05 19:00:33 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1984 2011-07-05 19:00:49 <copumpkin> I think he's going to go after me next
1985 2011-07-05 19:01:03 <copumpkin> I've been arguing with him over PM about his motivations for doing that
1986 2011-07-05 19:01:03 Teslah has joined
1987 2011-07-05 19:01:06 bitanarchy has joined
1988 2011-07-05 19:01:40 <jgarzik> same format as the person previously "dropping dox" on nanotube a week or three ago
1989 2011-07-05 19:02:03 jwalck has left ("kthxbai")
1990 2011-07-05 19:02:10 FAMULUS has joined
1991 2011-07-05 19:02:14 <copumpkin> yeah
1992 2011-07-05 19:02:23 <neofutur> yup probably a mirc plugin , the formlat is exactly the same
1993 2011-07-05 19:03:15 <b4epoche> copumpkin: aren't you at work?
1994 2011-07-05 19:03:21 <b4epoche> ;-)
1995 2011-07-05 19:03:23 <copumpkin> yeah, well, in tampa
1996 2011-07-05 19:03:25 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
1997 2011-07-05 19:03:27 <joepie91> lol
1998 2011-07-05 19:03:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134914 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 157 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 22 hours, 9 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1575787.71920320
1999 2011-07-05 19:03:38 <joepie91> dox that you can google are dox that were already public anyway
2000 2011-07-05 19:03:41 <joepie91> thus defeating the point
2001 2011-07-05 19:03:45 <b4epoche> tampa? You gonna visit the #iphone gang?
2002 2011-07-05 19:03:52 <joepie91> also, this is some lovely reading: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=25962.0
2003 2011-07-05 19:05:11 <copumpkin> joepie91: he says he enjoys submitting info to kiddie porn sites etc.
2004 2011-07-05 19:05:15 <copumpkin> nice dude
2005 2011-07-05 19:05:20 <joepie91> lol
2006 2011-07-05 19:05:22 <copumpkin> :)
2007 2011-07-05 19:05:25 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: i don't blame vi
2008 2011-07-05 19:05:30 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: i blame the cat
2009 2011-07-05 19:05:32 <joepie91> he makes me think of Ryan
2010 2011-07-05 19:05:36 <joepie91> the Ryan Cleary guy
2011 2011-07-05 19:05:41 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: she likes to walk across/lay on the laptop ;p
2012 2011-07-05 19:05:42 <joepie91> bluffing about things.
2013 2011-07-05 19:06:04 FAMULUS has quit (Client Quit)
2014 2011-07-05 19:07:00 <b4epoche> ah, nice warm laptop
2015 2011-07-05 19:07:24 <erle-> how many bits of entropy do the ecdsa keys for bitcoin have? (wallet private keys)
2016 2011-07-05 19:07:32 <copumpkin> http://pastie.org/private/zplimd9gzgc0lczw9ugldq
2017 2011-07-05 19:07:38 <copumpkin> if anyone's interested in the troll :)
2018 2011-07-05 19:07:38 <jgarzik> erle-: ECDSA private keys are 256-bit
2019 2011-07-05 19:07:59 <b4epoche> so, copumpkin, you gonna pay a visit to Kyle or Zod?
2020 2011-07-05 19:08:07 <copumpkin> nah
2021 2011-07-05 19:08:59 anarchyx has joined
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2031 2011-07-05 19:12:57 <sipa> jgarzik: i did another code cleanup (for after crypto stuff is merged): get rid of mapPubKeys by using addresses everywhere, and introduce a CBitcoinAddress instead of the uint160's and strings that were used before
2032 2011-07-05 19:13:07 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/blob/newenc%2Bcbitcoinaddress/src/keystore.h
2033 2011-07-05 19:13:12 <sipa> if you're interested
2034 2011-07-05 19:13:30 <sipa> ow
2035 2011-07-05 19:13:40 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/newenc%2Bcbitcoinaddress
2036 2011-07-05 19:13:52 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2037 2011-07-05 19:14:00 <BlueMatt> looks awsome, next thing: move *all* the net stuff to net.cpp and make a fairly clean interface to main.h
2038 2011-07-05 19:14:02 <Burgundy> Hello! Anybody's compiled pyOpenCL under windows lately? I got an issue in doing so...
2039 2011-07-05 19:14:44 priztel has joined
2040 2011-07-05 19:16:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: other things: do command line argument parsing in one place, and store in a config object instead of globals/parsing all over the place
2041 2011-07-05 19:17:13 <BlueMatt> well yea, that too
2042 2011-07-05 19:18:59 <sipa> and turn net and rpc into classes with their own private state
2043 2011-07-05 19:19:18 <BlueMatt> especially net
2044 2011-07-05 19:19:45 <BlueMatt> and rpc just calls stuff from main (being a clean interface) and wallet and nothing else
2045 2011-07-05 19:20:04 oozyburglar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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2048 2011-07-05 19:20:53 <sipa> i think a layer between rpc+ui and wallet+main would be nice, which handles things like account balances and transaction listing
2049 2011-07-05 19:21:05 priztel has joined
2050 2011-07-05 19:21:08 <BlueMatt> well that would work too
2051 2011-07-05 19:21:40 <priztel> <neofutur> now you know you dont have to insult ops on IRC <neofutur> and no i m not a bitch <neofutur> when an op kicks you, keep cool if you come back to the channel -> *magicaltux* neofutur banned me! he's acting like a jerk <neofutur> adding insult lead to ban William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc
2052 2011-07-05 19:21:40 <priztel> network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com
2053 2011-07-05 19:21:40 <priztel> /fr/profile/william.waisse
2054 2011-07-05 19:21:40 <priztel> WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH. WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS
2055 2011-07-05 19:21:40 <priztel> KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL.
2056 2011-07-05 19:21:41 <priztel> HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.
2057 2011-07-05 19:21:41 <priztel> <neofutur> now you know you dont have to insult ops on IRC <neofutur> and no i m not a bitch <neofutur> when an op kicks you, keep cool if you come back to the channel -> *magicaltux* neofutur banned me! he's acting like a jerk <neofutur> adding insult lead to ban William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc
2058 2011-07-05 19:21:42 <priztel> network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com
2059 2011-07-05 19:21:42 <priztel> /fr/profile/william.waisse
2060 2011-07-05 19:21:43 <priztel> <neofutur> now you know you dont have to insult ops on IRC <neofutur> and no i m not a bitch <neofutur> when an op kicks you, keep cool if you come back to the channel -> *magicaltux* neofutur banned me! he's acting like a jerk <neofutur> adding insult lead to ban William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc
2061 2011-07-05 19:21:43 <priztel> network (in complete violation of freenode policy). since neofucker banned me, here are the cunt's dox: name: william waisse address: 1 rue Leon blum, 91130, Ris-Orangis, France tel: +33.681967610 emails: wwaisse@neofutur.net, william.waisse@gmail.com, neofutur@ww7.be, bc@ww7.be, neofutur@neofutur.net, wwaisse@esprit-equipe.fr, bitcoin.org@ww7.be, william@waisse.org http://www.viadeo.com
2062 2011-07-05 19:21:44 <priztel> /fr/profile/william.waisse
2063 2011-07-05 19:21:44 <priztel> WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH. WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS
2064 2011-07-05 19:21:45 <priztel> KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL.
2065 2011-07-05 19:21:45 <priztel> HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES. HE HAS JUST POSTED REQUESTS FOR KIDDIE PORN MATERIAL. HAHAHAHAH.
2066 2011-07-05 19:21:46 <priztel> <neofutur> now you know you dont have to insult ops on IRC <neofutur> and no i m not a bitch <neofutur> when an op kicks you, keep cool if you come back to the channel -> *magicaltux* neofutur banned me! he's acting like a jerk <neofutur> adding insult lead to ban William Waisse (aka ne0futur) is a bitch/troll who spends his time desperately censoring discussions on the freenode irc
2067 2011-07-05 19:21:46 priztel has quit (Excess Flood)
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2069 2011-07-05 19:22:02 <nidefawl> hmkey
2070 2011-07-05 19:22:49 <copumpkin> nice guy, as I said
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2073 2011-07-05 19:23:02 pritzel is now known as priztel
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2095 2011-07-05 19:39:22 <b4epoche> amazing how kiddie porn kills a discussion
2096 2011-07-05 19:39:46 dbasch has quit (Client Quit)
2097 2011-07-05 19:39:59 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2098 2011-07-05 19:40:35 <copumpkin> we're all too busy enjoying it
2099 2011-07-05 19:40:38 <copumpkin> ;)
2100 2011-07-05 19:40:46 <lianj_> ^^
2101 2011-07-05 19:41:49 <b4epoche> better not be using your work computer copumpkin
2102 2011-07-05 19:42:03 <copumpkin> lol
2103 2011-07-05 19:42:23 <copumpkin> :)
2104 2011-07-05 19:42:42 * AlonzoTG gets to work implementing Bozo the Clown's Bitcoin Protocol. =P
2105 2011-07-05 19:42:55 <sipa> bozo the clown?
2106 2011-07-05 19:43:24 <AlonzoTG> the guy who came up with crap like the "variable length integer"
2107 2011-07-05 19:44:29 <b4epoche> I think IRC chatting /and/ kiddie porn might get you firedâ¦
2108 2011-07-05 19:44:36 <copumpkin> I approve of variable-length integers
2109 2011-07-05 19:44:51 <copumpkin> b4epoche: nobody minds IRC, but I think the latter might be a problem
2110 2011-07-05 19:44:58 <lianj_> b4epoche: depends how much they need you
2111 2011-07-05 19:45:19 <diki> dunno what the guy who works on cgminer did, but no matter how much code i change...my desired effect doesnt show up
2112 2011-07-05 19:45:21 <diki> fail...
2113 2011-07-05 19:45:25 <b4epoche> copumpkin: yea, it was a jokeâ¦
2114 2011-07-05 19:45:36 <copumpkin> :)
2115 2011-07-05 19:46:37 <diki> ...switching to older version then...ckolia or whoever failed hard
2116 2011-07-05 19:48:15 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2117 2011-07-05 19:48:41 dbasch has joined
2118 2011-07-05 19:49:44 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
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2120 2011-07-05 19:52:53 Beccara has joined
2121 2011-07-05 19:54:30 <joepie91> <priztel>WILLIAM WAISSES'S HAS NOW BEEN REGISTERED AT SILK ROAD AND A FEW NOTORIOUS KIDDIE PORN SITES.
2122 2011-07-05 19:54:36 <joepie91> one wonders how he is aware of where these sites live...
2123 2011-07-05 19:55:39 peck has joined
2124 2011-07-05 19:55:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: what happened to http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/ ?
2125 2011-07-05 19:56:45 Pinion has joined
2126 2011-07-05 19:57:05 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hmmm...it appears one of the mirrors is down, use http://lambda.bitcoin.bluematt.me/ until dns propagates
2127 2011-07-05 19:58:01 zamgo has joined
2128 2011-07-05 19:59:44 cut has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2129 2011-07-05 20:00:29 <_W_> joepie91, much less have access to their user registrys
2130 2011-07-05 20:00:37 manifold___ has joined
2131 2011-07-05 20:00:44 <_W_> the only conclusion must be that he runs one :p
2132 2011-07-05 20:00:55 manifold_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2133 2011-07-05 20:01:05 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2134 2011-07-05 20:01:09 <joepie91> lol
2135 2011-07-05 20:01:27 <joepie91> anyone feels like sending his IP to the relevant authorities?
2136 2011-07-05 20:01:29 <joepie91> just for the lulz?
2137 2011-07-05 20:01:30 <joepie91> :)
2138 2011-07-05 20:03:22 underscor has joined
2139 2011-07-05 20:07:48 AAA_awright has joined
2140 2011-07-05 20:08:45 gbk has joined
2141 2011-07-05 20:09:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: switching to a better compression algo like bz2 would be nice, for the nightly blockchain d/l
2142 2011-07-05 20:10:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I'm surprised you keep so many copies, too
2143 2011-07-05 20:10:18 <BlueMatt> Im too lazy to rm
2144 2011-07-05 20:10:28 <BlueMatt> never bothered to set up automated rm...
2145 2011-07-05 20:11:04 <BlueMatt> Ill do bz2 when I get around to it
2146 2011-07-05 20:12:01 cut has joined
2147 2011-07-05 20:15:19 XX01XX has joined
2148 2011-07-05 20:15:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: find . -mtime -14 -type f -print0 | xargs -0 rm -f
2149 2011-07-05 20:15:51 <jgarzik> :)
2150 2011-07-05 20:15:56 <BlueMatt> over ftp?
2151 2011-07-05 20:16:06 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: no
2152 2011-07-05 20:17:12 <vrs> BlueMatt: i get FAIL DELETE in my logs anyway when you try deleting stuff on my mirror, don't know why though
2153 2011-07-05 20:17:29 <vrs> but i gave you rsync access quite a while ago
2154 2011-07-05 20:17:50 <BlueMatt> yea, never got around to setting it up, Ill do that when I do bz2
2155 2011-07-05 20:17:56 <BlueMatt> actually, I might go do that
2156 2011-07-05 20:18:06 <vrs> one line of rsync :)
2157 2011-07-05 20:18:08 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2158 2011-07-05 20:18:09 <BlueMatt> though I suppose I need to ask around for another mirror if available...
2159 2011-07-05 20:20:11 <vrs> rsync -a --delete
2160 2011-07-05 20:20:18 erus` has joined
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2163 2011-07-05 20:21:38 slux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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2168 2011-07-05 20:27:12 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
2169 2011-07-05 20:27:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134916 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 155 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 21 hours, 54 minutes, and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1573658.66340721
2170 2011-07-05 20:27:28 erus` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2173 2011-07-05 20:28:57 <jgarzik> hum, several pools down and deepbit approaching 50% again
2174 2011-07-05 20:29:40 <b4epoche> is there a FAW about the dangers of a pool monopoly?
2175 2011-07-05 20:30:15 <jgarzik> FAW?
2176 2011-07-05 20:30:36 <b4epoche> FAQ
2177 2011-07-05 20:30:48 <copumpkin> if deepbit hits 50%, that means that [Tycho] can be evil, right? nobody else?
2178 2011-07-05 20:30:52 <nanotube> hey, the tx fee requirements - that's if any of the /outs/ are < .01, right? it doesn't care if inputs are <.01, right?
2179 2011-07-05 20:31:10 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki weaknesses
2180 2011-07-05 20:31:11 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses | Jun 18, 2011 ... Weaknesses. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search .... Retrieved from "https ://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses". Category: Technical ...
2181 2011-07-05 20:31:15 <nanotube> b4epoche: ^
2182 2011-07-05 20:31:18 <pusle> isn't somebody working on a pool software where everybody makes their own blocks? like solo
2183 2011-07-05 20:31:19 <nanotube> see section of 'lots of computing power'
2184 2011-07-05 20:31:34 amstan has joined
2185 2011-07-05 20:31:42 <nanotube> pusle: dunno about 'working', but posted some forum thread about it at least ;)
2186 2011-07-05 20:31:53 <b4epoche> deepshit.me is available
2187 2011-07-05 20:32:23 _ape has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2188 2011-07-05 20:32:47 eamon has joined
2189 2011-07-05 20:33:01 <eamon> how do I send 0.001 BTC?
2190 2011-07-05 20:33:05 <pusle> okay, I do hope it becomes a reality coz now it seems Game Real life TM pushes everybody into the same pool
2191 2011-07-05 20:33:53 <b4epoche> what's pushing people?
2192 2011-07-05 20:34:32 <pusle> the biggest one has the best software? I dunno
2193 2011-07-05 20:34:50 <pusle> just observing behaviour "in the wild" :P
2194 2011-07-05 20:34:51 skeledrew has joined
2195 2011-07-05 20:34:57 <eamon> the official client gives an error
2196 2011-07-05 20:35:14 <eamon> is it not possible?
2197 2011-07-05 20:35:24 Zusje has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2198 2011-07-05 20:35:40 <pusle> error with version 0.3.23 ?
2199 2011-07-05 20:36:38 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2200 2011-07-05 20:37:22 <jgarzik> eamon: anything below 0.01 BTC requires a fee
2201 2011-07-05 20:37:30 <jgarzik> eamon: because bitcoin is not a microtransaction network
2202 2011-07-05 20:38:08 <eamon> hmmm
2203 2011-07-05 20:38:21 <eamon> here's to bitcoin depreciating I guess
2204 2011-07-05 20:39:07 <eamon> you guys should put an update button on the about box
2205 2011-07-05 20:39:22 mosimo has joined
2206 2011-07-05 20:39:38 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2207 2011-07-05 20:39:44 <b4epoche> there's lotsa stuff that should be done⦠Updating is likely on the todo list
2208 2011-07-05 20:40:12 <quellhorst> $5 btc by this time next week
2209 2011-07-05 20:40:26 <quellhorst> followed by difficulty drop
2210 2011-07-05 20:40:46 <eamon> most users like myself aren't gonna check for new versions. And end users don't know what beta means. it should nag for updates, espevially since there cvan be a lot of money at stake
2211 2011-07-05 20:41:17 zylche has joined
2212 2011-07-05 20:41:18 <eamon> b4epoche: yeah, I think it should be at the top for the reason above :)
2213 2011-07-05 20:41:21 zylche has quit (Excess Flood)
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2219 2011-07-05 20:43:44 <b4epoche> I can add auto-updating to the OSX version, but the rest is up to others
2220 2011-07-05 20:44:40 <thedrs> I wonder how many ppl haven't upgraded their clients since 0.3.21 because the cpu mining feature was removed ...
2221 2011-07-05 20:45:40 <b4epoche> if people are still mining on cpu's I should be investing in oil
2222 2011-07-05 20:45:44 fathead has joined
2223 2011-07-05 20:46:06 <phungus> so, if we can embed data for domain names and such to Bitcoin, what about embedding application code? To turn the bitcoind into an application server distributing app code for browsers to connect to.
2224 2011-07-05 20:46:30 <phungus> I can see all kinds of security nightmare issues, but that would be distributed application hosting
2225 2011-07-05 20:46:41 <eamon> I can use bit coins to embed your mom
2226 2011-07-05 20:47:25 <phungus> I'm just trying to think of ways to keep applications perpetually alive but without relying on centralized hosting
2227 2011-07-05 20:48:04 gjs278 has joined
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2231 2011-07-05 20:52:08 <b4epoche> kinda like "the torrent with the most seeds must be legitimate."
2232 2011-07-05 20:54:58 <joepie91> phungus: tahoe-lafs may be worth a look
2233 2011-07-05 20:56:55 minimoose has joined
2234 2011-07-05 21:00:32 agricocb has joined
2235 2011-07-05 21:00:43 <phungus> thx
2236 2011-07-05 21:01:01 liltoe has joined
2237 2011-07-05 21:01:34 <phungus> yeah, applications with high popularity are automatically fault tolerant
2238 2011-07-05 21:01:39 <phungus> by users using them
2239 2011-07-05 21:01:41 gjs278 has joined
2240 2011-07-05 21:01:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: is the nightly block chain snapshot stuck?
2241 2011-07-05 21:02:01 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the file sizes look suspiciously similar
2242 2011-07-05 21:02:02 <phungus> would have to rely on crypto signatures to verify authenticity
2243 2011-07-05 21:02:29 <phungus> joepie91: thx for the link
2244 2011-07-05 21:04:53 shalala has joined
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2248 2011-07-05 21:07:03 <b4epoche> tahoe-lafs seems really interesting...
2249 2011-07-05 21:07:03 roconnor has joined
2250 2011-07-05 21:07:21 <b4epoche> but 'who' are the servers?
2251 2011-07-05 21:07:39 <roconnor> What does "nVersion = this->nVersion;" do in main.h ?
2252 2011-07-05 21:08:14 <b4epoche> i.e. who/what comprises "storage servers"
2253 2011-07-05 21:09:01 <b4epoche> roconnor: is that your funky Haskell stuff? ;-)
2254 2011-07-05 21:09:01 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2255 2011-07-05 21:09:14 <roconnor> nope; it is from the bitcoin sources
2256 2011-07-05 21:09:26 <copumpkin> roconnor: you asking about c++?
2257 2011-07-05 21:09:27 nocreativenick1 has joined
2258 2011-07-05 21:09:28 <b4epoche> actually, it looks like it reduces the requirement for type this-> too many times
2259 2011-07-05 21:09:30 <copumpkin> or just that particular variable
2260 2011-07-05 21:10:05 <b4epoche> copumpkin: are you notified when anyone mentions Haskell?
2261 2011-07-05 21:10:13 <copumpkin> nope
2262 2011-07-05 21:10:14 shalala has left ()
2263 2011-07-05 21:10:20 <copumpkin> I just check at opportune times :)
2264 2011-07-05 21:10:22 <roconnor> did someone mention haskell?
2265 2011-07-05 21:10:32 <roconnor> oh that was a question for copumpkin
2266 2011-07-05 21:10:44 <npouillard> did someone mention haskell and tahoe-lafs?
2267 2011-07-05 21:11:06 <copumpkin> I'm sure zooko did at some point
2268 2011-07-05 21:11:11 <roconnor> b4epoche: I don't think that is correct because nVersion isn't used after that (those) lines.
2269 2011-07-05 21:11:18 <npouillard> :)
2270 2011-07-05 21:11:28 <copumpkin> roconnor: it's probably unnecessary then
2271 2011-07-05 21:11:31 <b4epoche> is still wondering about tahoe-lafs
2272 2011-07-05 21:11:31 erus` has joined
2273 2011-07-05 21:11:43 <roconnor> b4epoche: but I find it hard to peer though the opacitity of the macros used around there.
2274 2011-07-05 21:12:09 OneFixt_ has joined
2275 2011-07-05 21:12:27 OneFixt_ has quit (Changing host)
2276 2011-07-05 21:12:27 OneFixt_ has joined
2277 2011-07-05 21:12:49 OneFixt is now known as Guest32172
2278 2011-07-05 21:13:10 <npouillard> b4epoche: storage servers could be anything running as a "storage server node", this ranges from machines you setup with friends, to servers on the cloud
2279 2011-07-05 21:13:36 Guest32172 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2280 2011-07-05 21:14:14 <roconnor> this is a little related to my claimed bug that version numbers of blocks and transactions are not checked in bitcoin
2281 2011-07-05 21:14:41 <roconnor> I'm tempted to start sending transactions with randomly set version numbers.
2282 2011-07-05 21:14:48 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2283 2011-07-05 21:15:28 <roconnor> copumpkin: darcs get http://r6.ca/Purecoin
2284 2011-07-05 21:15:33 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
2285 2011-07-05 21:15:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: -rc3 tagged
2286 2011-07-05 21:15:40 <copumpkin> holy crap
2287 2011-07-05 21:15:51 <roconnor> copumpkin: it's not all there yet
2288 2011-07-05 21:15:53 <copumpkin> :)
2289 2011-07-05 21:15:56 <copumpkin> sweet
2290 2011-07-05 21:15:58 <copumpkin> what's missing?
2291 2011-07-05 21:16:06 <roconnor> most of it
2292 2011-07-05 21:16:09 <copumpkin> oh okay :)
2293 2011-07-05 21:16:22 <copumpkin> can't darcs get right now, but is it cabalified?
2294 2011-07-05 21:16:29 <roconnor> nope
2295 2011-07-05 21:16:32 <copumpkin> ah
2296 2011-07-05 21:16:50 <b4epoche> Purecoin?
2297 2011-07-05 21:17:06 <roconnor> b4epoche: that is my funky haskell stuff.
2298 2011-07-05 21:17:09 <b4epoche> you haskell guys really are kinda elitist ;-)
2299 2011-07-05 21:17:17 <roconnor> I try
2300 2011-07-05 21:17:23 <copumpkin> pure functional programming is what it's called :P
2301 2011-07-05 21:17:50 <phungus> yeah, Tahoe-LAFS is off the hook cool
2302 2011-07-05 21:18:15 <b4epoche> phungus: but you need to make sure the 'storage servers' don't disappear
2303 2011-07-05 21:18:50 erle- has joined
2304 2011-07-05 21:19:00 estornudo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2305 2011-07-05 21:19:01 <gim> what is Purecoin?
2306 2011-07-05 21:19:07 <phungus> yes, but there is the Global Grid
2307 2011-07-05 21:19:16 <phungus> just looking at that. :-)
2308 2011-07-05 21:19:26 <gim> a bitcoin implementation in haskell?
2309 2011-07-05 21:19:33 <gim> or smthg else?
2310 2011-07-05 21:19:39 <phungus> I wonder if it would be feasible to store small amounts over TOR
2311 2011-07-05 21:19:47 <phungus> LAFS over TOR
2312 2011-07-05 21:19:48 <b4epoche> Is this seriously the MtGox order book: http://mtgoxlive.com/orders
2313 2011-07-05 21:20:06 <roconnor> copumpkin: oh, but in the darcs repo you will find actual modules and information hiding even!
2314 2011-07-05 21:20:12 <erle-> wtf happened to block 134922?
2315 2011-07-05 21:20:26 <b4epoche> I mean 1000 btc of buy orders? really?
2316 2011-07-05 21:20:26 <upb> b4epoche: yep, the gox has crashed again :)
2317 2011-07-05 21:20:46 <jgarzik> erle-: ?
2318 2011-07-05 21:21:03 <erle-> jgarzik, http://blockexplorer.com/
2319 2011-07-05 21:21:36 scott`_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2320 2011-07-05 21:21:37 <roconnor> erle-: looks fine to me at first glance
2321 2011-07-05 21:22:19 BTCTrader has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2322 2011-07-05 21:22:21 <jgarzik> erle-: sigh
2323 2011-07-05 21:22:33 <jgarzik> erle-: "?" generally means "WTF are you talking about?"
2324 2011-07-05 21:22:45 <erle-> block generator got fees, but there are no transactions
2325 2011-07-05 21:22:47 <phungus> ooooo, maybe by using firefox as a frontend to TLAFS, and downloading HTML5 code that executes locally...
2326 2011-07-05 21:22:48 <jgarzik> erle-: we are all capable of looking at 134922 on BBE and other sites
2327 2011-07-05 21:22:50 coindigger has joined
2328 2011-07-05 21:22:54 <b4epoche> phungus: Global Grid?
2329 2011-07-05 21:23:03 <roconnor> erle-: I see 62 transactions
2330 2011-07-05 21:23:08 <jgarzik> erle-: there are plenty of fees in that block
2331 2011-07-05 21:23:12 <jgarzik> erle-: and plenty of transactions
2332 2011-07-05 21:23:30 BTCTrader has joined
2333 2011-07-05 21:23:33 Strogge has quit ()
2334 2011-07-05 21:23:41 <erle-> then it must be blockexplorer display error
2335 2011-07-05 21:23:44 * gmaxwell shows erle- how to move the scrollbar.
2336 2011-07-05 21:23:44 <erle-> i dont see any
2337 2011-07-05 21:23:56 BTCTrader is now known as Guest44186
2338 2011-07-05 21:23:58 * roconnor is using blockexplorer
2339 2011-07-05 21:24:02 <coindigger> mtgox trading paused? ... anyone having info?
2340 2011-07-05 21:24:08 <erle-> it shows only two transactions with no fees here, gmaxwell
2341 2011-07-05 21:24:39 darbsllim has joined
2342 2011-07-05 21:25:08 <roconnor> try hiting shift-F5
2343 2011-07-05 21:25:10 <erle-> maybe i reloaded while blockexpl was calculating
2344 2011-07-05 21:25:14 <gmaxwell> Transactions: 62
2345 2011-07-05 21:25:18 <roconnor> er ctrl-F5
2346 2011-07-05 21:25:22 <phungus> b4epoche: http://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/UseCases
2347 2011-07-05 21:25:38 <phungus> global grid: A large, diverse ecosystem of people and organizations who want a storage grid with extremely high reliability and availability.
2348 2011-07-05 21:25:39 <coindigger> @MagicalTux: people out there wonder if mtgox paused trading, while prices were going up again? ... do you have any info?
2349 2011-07-05 21:26:58 <justmoon> coindigger: -> #mtgox
2350 2011-07-05 21:27:00 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2351 2011-07-05 21:27:17 <phungus> but, that's a hashtag
2352 2011-07-05 21:27:22 <phungus> now I'm confused
2353 2011-07-05 21:27:25 <justmoon> it's a channel
2354 2011-07-05 21:27:28 <phungus> :-)
2355 2011-07-05 21:27:30 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
2356 2011-07-05 21:27:31 <phungus> just being silly
2357 2011-07-05 21:27:37 <justmoon> ah :)
2358 2011-07-05 21:27:41 <justmoon> sorry, I'm on edge a bit
2359 2011-07-05 21:27:49 <justmoon> anyway, back to work for me
2360 2011-07-05 21:27:52 <phungus> werd
2361 2011-07-05 21:27:54 <coindigger> thx i'll switch ...
2362 2011-07-05 21:28:52 * b4epoche wonders how redundant things have to be in the global grid for high availability
2363 2011-07-05 21:29:18 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2364 2011-07-05 21:29:37 ThomasV has joined
2365 2011-07-05 21:29:40 <briareus> coindigger:
2366 2011-07-05 21:29:41 <briareus> [16:21] < neofutur> yupp engine frozen for more than 20 mins
2367 2011-07-05 21:29:41 <briareus> [16:21] < neofutur> i try to wake MT now
2368 2011-07-05 21:30:22 <sivu> mt should have while true; do ./engine; done
2369 2011-07-05 21:30:25 <sivu> when going to sleep
2370 2011-07-05 21:30:56 <briareus> haha
2371 2011-07-05 21:31:56 <jgarzik> I would rather trading stop, than continue with bugs/hacks
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2373 2011-07-05 21:33:06 Guest44186 is now known as BTCTrader_
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2376 2011-07-05 21:35:44 <roconnor> b4epoche: I remember when I went to the Chaos Communication Camp in 1999; they build a hightly redudent network that immediately got flooded; and due to the redudency it was impossible to isolate the people flooding the network. So the network was unusable for a day or two.
2377 2011-07-05 21:35:51 darbsllim has joined
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2379 2011-07-05 21:36:32 <SeriousWorm> wow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Computer_Club nice
2380 2011-07-05 21:36:37 <SeriousWorm> they are a big tor node :)
2381 2011-07-05 21:36:41 <SeriousWorm> now I know what they are :)
2382 2011-07-05 21:36:58 * b4epoche loves when things unexpectedly go unstable
2383 2011-07-05 21:39:18 amstan has left ("Konversation terminated!")
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2388 2011-07-05 21:47:31 <denisx> what means unknown-work? is that a miner problem?
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2396 2011-07-05 21:52:21 <b4epoche> Bitcoin Trader Edition is coming along⦠http://snapplr.com/w0rc
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2402 2011-07-05 21:54:43 <roconnor> I wonder what motivies checking that coinbase scripts have 2-100 items
2403 2011-07-05 21:54:56 <roconnor> I see no point to the check
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2422 2011-07-05 22:19:19 <lumos> lizthegrey, is it true you program in cobol?
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2438 2011-07-05 22:36:45 <FireFly> log this
2439 2011-07-05 22:38:35 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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2442 2011-07-05 22:48:49 <[Tycho]> luke-jr, are you here ?
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2453 2011-07-05 23:11:19 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: here too
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2463 2011-07-05 23:24:05 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2464 2011-07-05 23:24:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 134932 | Current Difficulty: 1379192.2882281 | Next Difficulty At Block: 135071 | Next Difficulty In: 139 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 hours, 48 minutes, and 27 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1566348.00663296
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2470 2011-07-05 23:36:07 <lizthegrey> lumos: uhh, no, has someone been spreading rumors about me?
2471 2011-07-05 23:36:26 <lizthegrey> lumos: I'm a python, java, and C++ person.
2472 2011-07-05 23:38:25 <Joric> it's basically cobol ;)
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2476 2011-07-05 23:47:03 Qatz is now known as DaQatz
2477 2011-07-05 23:48:05 <Taveren93HGK> hey, does anybody have a factory 6990 bios i could download?
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2484 2011-07-05 23:54:45 <jgarzik> ;;seen ArtForz
2485 2011-07-05 23:54:45 <gribble> ArtForz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, 36 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <ArtForz> eternal beta. hah, satoshi is secretly a google employee!
2486 2011-07-05 23:55:06 <BlueMatt> lol, he is?
2487 2011-07-05 23:55:15 <BlueMatt> oh, I feel slow
2488 2011-07-05 23:55:23 <BlueMatt> "external beta"...
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