1 2011-07-07 00:00:02 <BlueMatt> MrSam: if you can find anyone willing to pay for testcoins, I will be astounded, even 0.00000001
   2 2011-07-07 00:00:25 <SeriousWorm> how much are there in circulation
   3 2011-07-07 00:00:38 <SeriousWorm> 1521200
   4 2011-07-07 00:00:43 <MrSam> 01:58:04(Sam@root)~/bitcoin$bit sendfrom "" mxtuv2aukdtGdLGQ4GB1ikhuQNHRtY8Cp2 50
   5 2011-07-07 00:00:45 <SeriousWorm> hmm
   6 2011-07-07 00:00:46 <MrSam> f513be55a5b6c9449c91375235f08071f74a17a965af912c86dea2dd06b3f9c7
   7 2011-07-07 00:00:50 <MrSam> you can thank me later
   8 2011-07-07 00:00:53 <SeriousWorm> ok paying 1 btc for 1 mil testnet coins
   9 2011-07-07 00:00:54 <SeriousWorm> :)
  10 2011-07-07 00:01:04 <MrSam> BlueMatt: i heard BTC was once at 0.001 !
  11 2011-07-07 00:01:09 <MrSam> BlueMatt: so it could still happen
  12 2011-07-07 00:01:18 <justmoon> MrSam, the testnet gets reset from time to time
  13 2011-07-07 00:01:24 <MrSam> yeah i know
  14 2011-07-07 00:01:29 <BlueMatt> MrSam: there is a difference between a tiny value, and no value
  15 2011-07-07 00:01:31 <MrSam> so i'm spending my coins like there is no tomorrow
  16 2011-07-07 00:01:36 <SeriousWorm> also namecoins were 0.00x or so, then they exploded to 0.1 I think and over.. now they are at around 0.03, 0.04
  17 2011-07-07 00:01:38 <BlueMatt> but go ahead, knock yourself out
  18 2011-07-07 00:01:50 callcc has left ("Leaving")
  19 2011-07-07 00:02:12 <SeriousWorm> kind of like bitcoin :)
  20 2011-07-07 00:02:15 <jgarzik> if testnet diff gets too hard for too long, we can simply reset testnet
  21 2011-07-07 00:02:21 <jgarzik> we're already on testnet v2
  22 2011-07-07 00:02:34 callcc has joined
  23 2011-07-07 00:02:35 <gim> maybe testnet interval could be shortened to 1min?
  24 2011-07-07 00:02:41 <MrSam> nah
  25 2011-07-07 00:02:50 <MrSam> nobody want's to mess with the difficulty code
  26 2011-07-07 00:02:55 <MrSam> then it's no longer a testnet right ?
  27 2011-07-07 00:03:04 <SeriousWorm> I think the point of testnet is that it's identical to the real network, just that it can be used for testing
  28 2011-07-07 00:03:08 <BlueMatt> gim: then you might get propagation problems
  29 2011-07-07 00:03:12 <tcatm> MrSam: depends on what you want to test
  30 2011-07-07 00:03:16 <SeriousWorm> so a separate blockchain and addresses.
  31 2011-07-07 00:03:22 <MrSam> tcatm: why not use testnetinabox ?
  32 2011-07-07 00:03:26 <MrSam> or create your own
  33 2011-07-07 00:03:27 <gim> yes that would be a way to test those problems
  34 2011-07-07 00:03:39 <MrSam> testnetinabox is difficulty 1
  35 2011-07-07 00:03:41 <gim> which could also occur on the real networt
  36 2011-07-07 00:03:49 <MrSam> if you start from scratch its < 1
  37 2011-07-07 00:04:04 <tcatm> MrSam: with testnet you can test real services with real bitcoin users
  38 2011-07-07 00:04:25 <MrSam> if you create your own few nodes so can you ?
  39 2011-07-07 00:04:32 <MrSam> who needs users !
  40 2011-07-07 00:04:59 NickelBot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  41 2011-07-07 00:05:09 glitch-mod has joined
  42 2011-07-07 00:05:19 <MrSam> lol phantomcircuit
  43 2011-07-07 00:05:25 <MrSam> so i've send you the coins
  44 2011-07-07 00:05:29 <MrSam> but
  45 2011-07-07 00:05:29 <MrSam>         "confirmations" : 0,
  46 2011-07-07 00:06:25 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  47 2011-07-07 00:06:29 theorbtwo has joined
  48 2011-07-07 00:06:33 SixEch0 has joined
  49 2011-07-07 00:06:48 <phantomcircuit> MrSam, yeah that shouldn't matter
  50 2011-07-07 00:06:55 <phantomcircuit> at least for this bug
  51 2011-07-07 00:07:14 <MrSam> k
  52 2011-07-07 00:07:28 <gim> if i were you i would wait for at least 1 confirmation
  53 2011-07-07 00:07:38 <gim> better not to mix too much parameters
  54 2011-07-07 00:07:44 <MrSam> $bit setgenerate true
  55 2011-07-07 00:07:52 <MrSam> this would only take like 2 weeks or so
  56 2011-07-07 00:08:02 <MrSam> would/should
  57 2011-07-07 00:08:38 oozy_burgler has joined
  58 2011-07-07 00:08:46 <phantomcircuit> gim, i've seen the problem with things with >0 and 0 confirmations
  59 2011-07-07 00:08:50 <MrSam> hmm
  60 2011-07-07 00:08:50 <phantomcircuit> so it shouldn't matter
  61 2011-07-07 00:09:13 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  62 2011-07-07 00:09:26 <phantomcircuit> lol can someone send me some more coins xD
  63 2011-07-07 00:09:43 <phantomcircuit> sending to mysql actually could cause different results
  64 2011-07-07 00:09:49 <phantomcircuit> ill send them back
  65 2011-07-07 00:09:50 <phantomcircuit> lol
  66 2011-07-07 00:09:58 <MrSam> sec
  67 2011-07-07 00:10:11 <MrSam> done
  68 2011-07-07 00:10:12 <phantomcircuit> ok hmm yeah still not seeing the bug
  69 2011-07-07 00:10:16 <MrSam> 20 transactions or so
  70 2011-07-07 00:10:38 <gim> ahah, i often make the mistake of adding ';' after a if condition.. so i did a grep and found 2 of these mistakes in original bitcoin code (ui.cpp)
  71 2011-07-07 00:10:38 again has joined
  72 2011-07-07 00:10:54 oozyburglar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  73 2011-07-07 00:10:59 <MrSam> phantomcircuit: what are you looking for ?
  74 2011-07-07 00:11:24 <MrSam> 42 ?
  75 2011-07-07 00:11:46 slux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  76 2011-07-07 00:13:00 <phantomcircuit> MrSam, when receiving at an accounts address the funds are credited to the default account ""
  77 2011-07-07 00:13:03 <phantomcircuit> until i restart
  78 2011-07-07 00:13:11 <phantomcircuit> and then they're credited to the proper account
  79 2011-07-07 00:13:13 <phantomcircuit> it's weird
  80 2011-07-07 00:13:23 <MrSam> hmm
  81 2011-07-07 00:13:29 <MrSam> try me ?
  82 2011-07-07 00:13:33 <gim> looks like those recent synchronisation bugs in the wallet
  83 2011-07-07 00:13:40 <MrSam> $bit getnewaddress "rr"
  84 2011-07-07 00:13:41 <MrSam> mtFWyPC1MxvX6UZWtz8VF6XTqGPaWEJ3e7
  85 2011-07-07 00:14:05 <lfm> gim can you report those on the github or the forum, exact line numbers or some such would be good too
  86 2011-07-07 00:14:37 <gim> lfm: not very important stuff (font size hacks)
  87 2011-07-07 00:14:47 <lfm> still
  88 2011-07-07 00:15:03 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
  89 2011-07-07 00:16:48 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  90 2011-07-07 00:17:06 <phantomcircuit> hmm
  91 2011-07-07 00:17:39 <MrSam> hmm
  92 2011-07-07 00:17:40 <MrSam> strange
  93 2011-07-07 00:17:41 <MrSam> well
  94 2011-07-07 00:17:48 <lfm> testnet diff is up to 1000
  95 2011-07-07 00:18:07 <MrSam> 02:15:36(Sam@root)~/bitcoin$bit listaccounts | grep rr
  96 2011-07-07 00:18:07 <MrSam>     "rr" : 0.00000000,
  97 2011-07-07 00:18:10 <MrSam> this proves nothing
  98 2011-07-07 00:18:16 <MrSam> need confrimations
  99 2011-07-07 00:18:18 <phantomcircuit> alright
 100 2011-07-07 00:18:20 <phantomcircuit> one more time
 101 2011-07-07 00:18:31 <phantomcircuit> MrSam, listtransactions
 102 2011-07-07 00:18:35 <lfm> MrSam: how many blocks have you actually seen generated?
 103 2011-07-07 00:18:40 <MrSam>         "account" : "rr",
 104 2011-07-07 00:18:41 <MrSam>         "address" : "mtFWyPC1MxvX6UZWtz8VF6XTqGPaWEJ3e7",
 105 2011-07-07 00:18:41 <MrSam>         "category" : "receive",
 106 2011-07-07 00:18:41 <MrSam>         "amount" : 100.00000000,
 107 2011-07-07 00:18:41 <MrSam>         "confirmations" : 0,
 108 2011-07-07 00:19:21 <MrSam> i'm keeping those btw
 109 2011-07-07 00:19:22 <MrSam> :P
 110 2011-07-07 00:19:26 glitch-mod has joined
 111 2011-07-07 00:19:30 <lfm> mrsam you want more?
 112 2011-07-07 00:19:38 <MrSam> nah
 113 2011-07-07 00:19:43 <MrSam> i have more
 114 2011-07-07 00:19:47 <lfm>     "balance" : 124910.68937000,
 115 2011-07-07 00:19:52 <MrSam> lolz
 116 2011-07-07 00:20:04 <lfm> testnet WAS easy
 117 2011-07-07 00:20:08 <briareus> put your bitcoin in me  15EXoWwoqyAU3Zi6TgtrUWUZ6x6SZ2yEYk
 118 2011-07-07 00:20:10 <MrSam> i bet someone here was the same on realnet
 119 2011-07-07 00:20:21 Ramen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 120 2011-07-07 00:20:30 <lfm> briareus: those I showed are testnet not main bitcoin net
 121 2011-07-07 00:20:31 <MrSam> 02:16:32(Sam@root)~/bitcoin$bit sendfrom "rr" 15EXoWwoqyAU3Zi6TgtrUWUZ6x6SZ2yEYk 50
 122 2011-07-07 00:20:34 <MrSam> error: {"code":-6,"message":"Account has insufficient funds"}
 123 2011-07-07 00:20:41 <briareus> lfm: awww
 124 2011-07-07 00:20:45 <SeriousWorm> if testnet difficulty is up that means a lot of people are generating testnet coins :|
 125 2011-07-07 00:20:56 <MrSam> yeah but not recently
 126 2011-07-07 00:21:10 <SeriousWorm> ah
 127 2011-07-07 00:21:14 <SeriousWorm> [02:14:20] [lfm]: testnet diff is up to 1000
 128 2011-07-07 00:21:22 <SeriousWorm> do it isn't .. http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/00000000003e3889c2ea8d4cf22d776ac9d04e3d48febfa7563845f7ef234c66 diff: 502
 129 2011-07-07 00:21:24 <SeriousWorm> no*
 130 2011-07-07 00:21:27 <MrSam>     "difficulty" : 502.92155041,
 131 2011-07-07 00:21:29 <lfm> well it only takes about 10 gpu to make diff 1000
 132 2011-07-07 00:21:40 <SeriousWorm> but why would anyone do that.
 133 2011-07-07 00:21:45 <denisx> I have alot of testnet coins
 134 2011-07-07 00:21:46 <lfm>     "difficulty" : 1005.85077490,
 135 2011-07-07 00:21:50 <MrSam> hmm
 136 2011-07-07 00:21:57 <MrSam>     "blocks" : 30424,
 137 2011-07-07 00:21:58 <MrSam>  ?
 138 2011-07-07 00:22:06 <lfm>     "blocks" : 30424,
 139 2011-07-07 00:22:09 <SeriousWorm> lol.
 140 2011-07-07 00:22:12 <MrSam> lol
 141 2011-07-07 00:22:12 <SeriousWorm> ok, let me check
 142 2011-07-07 00:22:14 <MrSam> :P
 143 2011-07-07 00:22:20 <MrSam>     "connections" : 16,
 144 2011-07-07 00:22:25 <lfm>     "connections" : 8,
 145 2011-07-07 00:22:32 <MrSam> something's up then
 146 2011-07-07 00:22:37 <lfm> that is pretty starange
 147 2011-07-07 00:22:49 <MrSam> yeah
 148 2011-07-07 00:22:57 <lfm> MrSam: do you accept incoming?
 149 2011-07-07 00:23:06 <MrSam> only female
 150 2011-07-07 00:23:11 <MrSam> letmecheck
 151 2011-07-07 00:23:19 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
 152 2011-07-07 00:23:21 <SeriousWorm> 502 here
 153 2011-07-07 00:23:32 <SeriousWorm> 30424 blocks
 154 2011-07-07 00:23:35 <lfm> I could try -addnode you
 155 2011-07-07 00:23:46 <lfm> weird
 156 2011-07-07 00:24:12 <MrSam> lfm: go for it
 157 2011-07-07 00:24:14 <MrSam> root.oinks.be
 158 2011-07-07 00:24:41 <MrSam> i am running some bizzare patches, but it seems that you are the one that's off
 159 2011-07-07 00:24:54 <lfm> error: couldn't connect to server
 160 2011-07-07 00:25:01 <MrSam> hmm
 161 2011-07-07 00:25:22 <MrSam> your ip ?
 162 2011-07-07 00:25:23 <lfm> 91.212.186.16 right?
 163 2011-07-07 00:25:30 <lfm> thats yours
 164 2011-07-07 00:25:33 <MrSam> right
 165 2011-07-07 00:26:45 <MrSam> telnet works ..
 166 2011-07-07 00:26:47 <MrSam> ?
 167 2011-07-07 00:26:58 <lfm> 173.181.58.123 I think
 168 2011-07-07 00:27:34 <MrSam> ACCEPT     all  --  173.181.58.123       0.0.0.0/0
 169 2011-07-07 00:27:42 <lfm> but I only have incoming on main net
 170 2011-07-07 00:28:00 kish_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 171 2011-07-07 00:28:08 <lfm> error: couldn't connect to server
 172 2011-07-07 00:28:14 <MrSam> very strange
 173 2011-07-07 00:28:30 <gim> mmm, i think it is currently possible to flood someone's client with tx, isn't it?
 174 2011-07-07 00:28:43 <MrSam> gim: doubt that
 175 2011-07-07 00:28:49 <lfm> gim maybe one at a time sorta ya
 176 2011-07-07 00:28:53 <gim> let's try :)
 177 2011-07-07 00:29:02 <lfm> gim try on testnet
 178 2011-07-07 00:29:17 <gim> MrSam: give me some address ^^
 179 2011-07-07 00:29:25 <MrSam> $bit getnewaddress "flood"
 180 2011-07-07 00:29:25 <MrSam> miFobxRyfETD1SToQMK8xwTXVxApT3UoAW
 181 2011-07-07 00:29:44 <MrSam> this must be my lucky day
 182 2011-07-07 00:29:58 <MrSam> bitcoins coming in from everywhere
 183 2011-07-07 00:30:10 <MrSam> i guess this must have been how the early days where on realnet
 184 2011-07-07 00:30:17 kish has joined
 185 2011-07-07 00:30:41 <MrSam>         "amount" : 0.00000001,
 186 2011-07-07 00:30:43 <MrSam> ;)
 187 2011-07-07 00:30:52 <gim> gee, txfees are high
 188 2011-07-07 00:30:59 <MrSam> hack'm out
 189 2011-07-07 00:31:04 <gim> cost me 0.00050001
 190 2011-07-07 00:31:10 <MrSam> i accept nontxfee
 191 2011-07-07 00:31:57 <gim> well. it will cost me some testcoins, i'm to lazy to hack this now :)
 192 2011-07-07 00:32:09 <MrSam> i can't test it
 193 2011-07-07 00:32:14 callcc has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 194 2011-07-07 00:32:39 <gim> 10 more tx appeared ?
 195 2011-07-07 00:32:48 <lfm> Oh I know, testnet used to have a silly difficulty times two display for some silly reason. I think mine is still that old and yours isnt when I looked at my actual testnet block chain I get  Difficulty:1c00824f =  502.9215504,  2011-07-02 22:01:21, change:2.86885
 196 2011-07-07 00:33:03 <lfm> 502 same as you guys
 197 2011-07-07 00:33:16 <MrSam> lfm: so thats the reason they don't connect ?
 198 2011-07-07 00:33:19 <lfm>     "version" : 32002,
 199 2011-07-07 00:33:40 <lfm> they should still connect, dont know about that
 200 2011-07-07 00:33:40 <lfm> No command 'they' found, did you mean:
 201 2011-07-07 00:33:40 <lfm>  Command 'the' from package 'the' (universe)
 202 2011-07-07 00:34:09 <lfm> bah sorry, copy and paster error
 203 2011-07-07 00:34:24 <justmoon> lfm: the times two is/was because the maximum target of testnet is half that of livenet, so difficulty 500 on testnet is the same as 250 on livenet
 204 2011-07-07 00:34:40 <lfm> just nonsense
 205 2011-07-07 00:35:43 <MrSam> phantomcircuit: can i kill my client ?
 206 2011-07-07 00:35:49 <justmoon> sorry, twice* that of livenet
 207 2011-07-07 00:36:03 <justmoon> see: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
 208 2011-07-07 00:36:17 <lfm> justmoon: ya well whatever, it doesnt really make sense
 209 2011-07-07 00:36:22 <justmoon> "Minimum difficulty of 1.0 on testnet is equal to difficulty of 0.5 on mainnet. This means that the mainnet-equivalent of any testnet difficulty is half the testnet difficulty."
 210 2011-07-07 00:37:34 <lfm> justmoon: ya thats what some of the docs say but the code doesnt support it in any meaningful way
 211 2011-07-07 00:37:39 SecretSJ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 212 2011-07-07 00:37:52 <gim> MrSam: you just received 100 more test-satochis
 213 2011-07-07 00:38:28 <gim> how many of them will be included in next block ? :)
 214 2011-07-07 00:38:48 <lfm> main trouble is we still have no testnet blocks generated, so txns are not getting confirmed
 215 2011-07-07 00:39:27 <b4epoche_> I finally had a chance to work it out for myself...  using a 5770 with 1 Mhash/J and the average cost of electricity in the US (0.12 USD/kWh), 1 btc is worth ~$3
 216 2011-07-07 00:39:43 <b4epoche_> 1.45 Mhash/J
 217 2011-07-07 00:40:28 <b4epoche_> given current difficulty
 218 2011-07-07 00:41:19 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 219 2011-07-07 00:41:30 <vrs> not "worth", it's just the cost
 220 2011-07-07 00:41:41 <lfm> why use average cost of electricity? use actual cost for you
 221 2011-07-07 00:42:19 the22mafia has joined
 222 2011-07-07 00:42:43 the22mafia has left ()
 223 2011-07-07 00:43:05 <kunnis> b4epoche  Is that the average cost or the marginal?  (If it's just electricity, it's marginal)
 224 2011-07-07 00:43:19 <b4epoche_> yea, it's just electricity
 225 2011-07-07 00:43:43 <b4epoche_> not sure how fast you want to depreciate your hardware
 226 2011-07-07 00:44:00 <b4epoche_> lfm:  because I don't mine
 227 2011-07-07 00:44:22 <b4epoche_> but that kinda sets a lower bound on the exchange rate
 228 2011-07-07 00:44:23 Guest71907 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 229 2011-07-07 00:44:29 <lfm> also there is fixed monthly charges for power besides the cost per kwh
 230 2011-07-07 00:44:53 <kunnis> lfm  Though most of those are "fixed" because people already have the electrical service
 231 2011-07-07 00:44:58 Clipse has joined
 232 2011-07-07 00:45:00 <b4epoche_> I'm not sure if that 0.12 USD/kWh included 'fixed' costs
 233 2011-07-07 00:45:08 <kunnis> probably not
 234 2011-07-07 00:45:17 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
 235 2011-07-07 00:45:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135096 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1991 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1686722.08390542
 236 2011-07-07 00:45:51 <b4epoche_> and, shit, $0.12/kWh is from 2003 ;-)
 237 2011-07-07 00:46:09 <kunnis> Yeah, gas and coal have gone up
 238 2011-07-07 00:46:55 <b4epoche_> nope:  Residential: 11.5¢ per kWh in 2009
 239 2011-07-07 00:47:03 <b4epoche_> http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electricity_factors_affecting_prices
 240 2011-07-07 00:47:29 <b4epoche_> best to mine in Wyoming, Idaho, or Kentucky...
 241 2011-07-07 00:48:21 oozy_burgler is now known as oozyburglar
 242 2011-07-07 00:48:30 <kunnis> I think that fpga will be the future of mining.  I wonder if that will pan out to be true.   It'll take a lot of the electricy out of the cost.
 243 2011-07-07 00:48:32 <b4epoche_> copumpkin:  you should send me your mining rig...  electricity in PA is a lot cheaper than in MA
 244 2011-07-07 00:48:59 <copumpkin> b4epoche_: :O
 245 2011-07-07 00:49:11 <copumpkin> you really don't want it
 246 2011-07-07 00:49:14 <copumpkin> it sounds like a jet engine
 247 2011-07-07 00:49:17 <copumpkin> :
 248 2011-07-07 00:49:18 <copumpkin> :/
 249 2011-07-07 00:49:30 <lfm> put in in outside shed
 250 2011-07-07 00:49:35 <lfm> it in
 251 2011-07-07 00:49:36 <b4epoche_> $0.0960 vs. $0.1545
 252 2011-07-07 00:49:38 NickelBot has joined
 253 2011-07-07 00:49:59 <kunnis> you also have to take AC cooling into account
 254 2011-07-07 00:50:16 <kunnis> AC costs are like twice the cost of electricty
 255 2011-07-07 00:50:23 <b4epoche_> yea, I was just looking for a lower bound
 256 2011-07-07 00:50:34 <lfm> thats why you put it in a shed
 257 2011-07-07 00:50:52 <kunnis> The aC costs are probably $6/btc
 258 2011-07-07 00:51:01 <b4epoche_> that's why you put it in your office
 259 2011-07-07 00:51:28 <lfm> oh sure then your boss will want his share of your btc
 260 2011-07-07 00:51:41 <kunnis> Hahaha, do you think you could hide alarge mining rack at your office?  :P
 261 2011-07-07 00:51:43 XX01XX has quit (Quit: My god. It's full of 'tards.)
 262 2011-07-07 00:52:02 SecretSJ has joined
 263 2011-07-07 00:52:03 * b4epoche_ is not going to do the AC BTU conversion
 264 2011-07-07 00:52:16 <b4epoche_> I could
 265 2011-07-07 00:52:20 <kunnis> b4epoche  It's not that hard
 266 2011-07-07 00:52:26 <somuchwin> Anyone here got a clue why that latest Android bitcoin client (this one https://github.com/barmstrong/bitcoin-android ) is constantly using 80-90% of my phone's CPU?
 267 2011-07-07 00:52:28 <somuchwin> Is it like, mining? lol
 268 2011-07-07 00:52:48 adulau has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 269 2011-07-07 00:52:56 <b4epoche_> kunnis:  I know, I'm an ME prof...  I'm just not doing it
 270 2011-07-07 00:53:03 <lfm> somuchwin: prolly mining for the devs
 271 2011-07-07 00:53:03 <gim> come on testnet miners
 272 2011-07-07 00:54:01 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 273 2011-07-07 00:54:02 <somuchwin> this one is not testnet anymore
 274 2011-07-07 00:54:26 zeta-51b has left ("cu")
 275 2011-07-07 00:54:39 agricocb has joined
 276 2011-07-07 00:54:40 <lfm> gim my gpu will average 3 hour at 500 diff
 277 2011-07-07 00:54:43 BlueMattBot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 278 2011-07-07 00:55:00 <kunnis> I'm debating if I want to play with fpga mining, or if I want to try to improve the btc client's networking code
 279 2011-07-07 00:55:11 <b4epoche_> copumpkin:  I have a big empty basement
 280 2011-07-07 00:56:44 <kunnis> fpga mining is harder, and I'm less likely to produce something productive.  The networking changes I'm likely to be successful on.  blah.
 281 2011-07-07 00:57:02 <BitcoinForNewegg> lol A/C is like 30% of power
 282 2011-07-07 00:57:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> its actually very efficient
 283 2011-07-07 00:57:12 <kunnis> only 30%?
 284 2011-07-07 00:57:18 <BitcoinForNewegg> for good AC units
 285 2011-07-07 00:57:23 <lfm> networking you gotta convince people to adopt them, mining you can do without anyone objecting
 286 2011-07-07 00:57:25 <kunnis> I'm shocked.
 287 2011-07-07 00:57:39 <kunnis> lfm   Yeah, that's true
 288 2011-07-07 00:57:54 <BitcoinForNewegg> like 1 KW of AC power can move 3 KW of server's heat
 289 2011-07-07 00:57:55 <kunnis> but this is just changes in the networking code, but yeah, I'll have to deal with the whole package politics
 290 2011-07-07 00:58:38 <SeriousWorm> why do you need ACs anyway
 291 2011-07-07 00:58:44 <SeriousWorm> just put it near a window and block sunlight
 292 2011-07-07 00:58:47 <BitcoinForNewegg> for more density
 293 2011-07-07 00:58:50 <kunnis> I still think I'm more likely to get networking code into the repo then I am to get "good" "working" fpga miner.
 294 2011-07-07 00:58:55 <lfm> thats why I say, just put em in a shed
 295 2011-07-07 00:58:57 <SeriousWorm> outside temps don't really go over 40°C, right? and your GPU runs at 65-75
 296 2011-07-07 00:59:04 <BitcoinForNewegg> sure ambient air can cool it, but then u need good airflow
 297 2011-07-07 00:59:06 <SeriousWorm> just make sure it's ventilated
 298 2011-07-07 00:59:19 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 299 2011-07-07 00:59:23 <SeriousWorm> well it certainly is cheaper to provide good ventilation than pay for continuous AC :)
 300 2011-07-07 00:59:34 <BitcoinForNewegg> power is a rather small cost of the bill
 301 2011-07-07 00:59:59 <copumpkin> b4epoche_: hmm, that sounds nice actually :) I'll take a look at my first power bill when it arrives
 302 2011-07-07 01:00:03 <BitcoinForNewegg> also with AC u dont have to worry much about dust and moisture
 303 2011-07-07 01:00:09 <SeriousWorm> well, true.
 304 2011-07-07 01:00:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> its not for everyone,but I use AC
 305 2011-07-07 01:00:22 <SeriousWorm> you can also put the AC in demoisturizing ode
 306 2011-07-07 01:00:23 <SeriousWorm> mode*
 307 2011-07-07 01:00:25 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: kinda depends on your accounting. you can reuse assets for other things
 308 2011-07-07 01:00:25 <b4epoche_> plus my basement is freezing cold in the winter
 309 2011-07-07 01:00:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> also you get crazy efficiency when u pipe server output into AC
 310 2011-07-07 01:01:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> then it is going from 200 degrees to 100 degrees, crazy efficient at moving heat :)
 311 2011-07-07 01:01:24 <b4epoche_> BitcoinForNewegg: you have a cooling pipe running through server?
 312 2011-07-07 01:01:37 <BitcoinForNewegg> my server's exhaust is next to AC intake
 313 2011-07-07 01:01:43 <lfm> your servers output 200 degrees?! wow
 314 2011-07-07 01:01:51 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya 90 celecius
 315 2011-07-07 01:01:56 <b4epoche_> I'm assuming F, not C
 316 2011-07-07 01:02:01 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya lol
 317 2011-07-07 01:02:13 <BitcoinForNewegg> let me go check again, I got lazor themometor
 318 2011-07-07 01:02:14 <lfm> still wow
 319 2011-07-07 01:02:41 <b4epoche_> steal a bunch of heat pipes out of laptops
 320 2011-07-07 01:02:47 <b4epoche_> old laptops
 321 2011-07-07 01:02:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> 130 degrees air temp output now
 322 2011-07-07 01:03:21 underscor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 323 2011-07-07 01:03:21 <lfm> hehe youd need a lot of those little tiny heat pipes. I think he ment like ductwork
 324 2011-07-07 01:03:42 <BitcoinForNewegg> sadly my AC unit is behind a door thats locked for some reason
 325 2011-07-07 01:03:54 underscor has joined
 326 2011-07-07 01:04:00 <BitcoinForNewegg> so for me just exhausting next too the door is the best I will get
 327 2011-07-07 01:04:15 <lfm> still could pipe heat to the locked door (grill in door?)
 328 2011-07-07 01:04:17 <b4epoche_> the heat pipes are ~6" long
 329 2011-07-07 01:04:21 <BitcoinForNewegg> brb im bringing online another 9 GPU tonight
 330 2011-07-07 01:04:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> wood door
 331 2011-07-07 01:04:32 <BitcoinForNewegg> wood grille
 332 2011-07-07 01:04:49 <b4epoche_> they could transfer the heat closer to the cooling pipes
 333 2011-07-07 01:05:27 <b4epoche_> BitcoinForNewegg:  you live in an apartment?
 334 2011-07-07 01:05:33 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya\
 335 2011-07-07 01:05:35 <BitcoinForNewegg> 2br
 336 2011-07-07 01:05:48 <b4epoche_> well, that's why AC unit is locked down
 337 2011-07-07 01:05:55 <lfm> just pipe heat out a window then?
 338 2011-07-07 01:05:58 flykoko has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 339 2011-07-07 01:06:04 <BitcoinForNewegg> ya I may do that
 340 2011-07-07 01:06:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> do they make like 19 inch square dryer venting?
 341 2011-07-07 01:06:40 <lfm> ya like furnace ducts
 342 2011-07-07 01:06:46 * b4epoche_ was thinking about running the pool water around the AC blower...
 343 2011-07-07 01:06:52 <kunnis> Does anyone want to play with an idea I had?   I need a person who's running the btc client to help me test out a bug I want to check
 344 2011-07-07 01:06:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> DUDE
 345 2011-07-07 01:06:59 <BitcoinForNewegg> a pool woudl be awesome
 346 2011-07-07 01:07:10 <BitcoinForNewegg> you get a toasty pool (even in winter)
 347 2011-07-07 01:07:11 * b4epoche_ no longer has pool
 348 2011-07-07 01:07:17 <BitcoinForNewegg> lol u mad?
 349 2011-07-07 01:07:36 <b4epoche_> too big of a headache
 350 2011-07-07 01:07:41 <BitcoinForNewegg> you coudl do submersion cooling
 351 2011-07-07 01:07:54 <BitcoinForNewegg> pipe mineral oil through copper pipe thru pool
 352 2011-07-07 01:08:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> and keep all the gpus in a giant tub of oil
 353 2011-07-07 01:08:07 <lfm> you cant submerge in water. they use oils for that
 354 2011-07-07 01:08:11 <b4epoche_> I told copumpkin he should find an older chest-style freezer on Craig's list
 355 2011-07-07 01:08:24 <BitcoinForNewegg> wtf is the freezer for?
 356 2011-07-07 01:08:37 <BitcoinForNewegg> they are NOT designed to run at anywhere close to 100% duty cycle
 357 2011-07-07 01:08:44 <gim> kunnis:  mzV7tp18PP49CuX9S5ZZ3dHyH4MK3By3WC
 358 2011-07-07 01:08:49 <BitcoinForNewegg> they are to keep stuff in an insulated container frozen
 359 2011-07-07 01:08:53 <b4epoche_> BitcoinForNewegg:  that's why you get cheap one
 360 2011-07-07 01:09:07 <OppieT30> Move to the north pole.
 361 2011-07-07 01:09:13 <OppieT30> Should be cold enough there.
 362 2011-07-07 01:09:15 <lfm> b4epochehe is saying it will burn out real quick
 363 2011-07-07 01:09:19 <BitcoinForNewegg> I like where I live
 364 2011-07-07 01:09:19 Breign has quit ()
 365 2011-07-07 01:09:27 <BitcoinForNewegg> I am 3 minutes door to door from work
 366 2011-07-07 01:09:47 * luke-jr runs a supernode ;p
 367 2011-07-07 01:09:57 <BitcoinForNewegg> i only got 5 G h/s
 368 2011-07-07 01:10:00 <b4epoche_> lfm:  I know what he's saying...  but if it was designed to last 10 years it might last 6 months
 369 2011-07-07 01:10:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> more like 6 hrs
 370 2011-07-07 01:10:12 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 371 2011-07-07 01:10:17 <b4epoche_> BitcoinForNewegg:  so am I
 372 2011-07-07 01:10:18 <BitcoinForNewegg> compressor will prolly overheat
 373 2011-07-07 01:10:21 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 374 2011-07-07 01:10:22 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 375 2011-07-07 01:10:35 <BitcoinForNewegg> now stop distracting me i gott aget the rest of my cluster running
 376 2011-07-07 01:10:43 <BitcoinForNewegg> I only got 4 gpus :/
 377 2011-07-07 01:10:44 <lfm> no
 378 2011-07-07 01:10:50 <b4epoche_> yea, that's true...  just moved the cooling problem to another spot
 379 2011-07-07 01:10:52 <BitcoinForNewegg> theres another 12 in boxes
 380 2011-07-07 01:11:11 <SeriousWorm> kunnis: sure
 381 2011-07-07 01:11:18 <BitcoinForNewegg> my gpu worked fine with like 90-100 degree air input
 382 2011-07-07 01:11:20 <lfm> sigh, crazy miners
 383 2011-07-07 01:11:20 <b4epoche_> I'm about 3 minutes door to door from work...  it's so nice
 384 2011-07-07 01:11:28 <BitcoinForNewegg> so maybe a filter on a window and ur set
 385 2011-07-07 01:11:42 SecretSJ has quit (Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.)
 386 2011-07-07 01:11:48 <BitcoinForNewegg> and I will soon have tons of fancy toys from work
 387 2011-07-07 01:12:07 <lfm> Id use window for exhast, draw from cooled inside air
 388 2011-07-07 01:12:09 <BitcoinForNewegg> I thin i can bring stuff home to 'borrow for study' until I no longer work there
 389 2011-07-07 01:12:25 <BitcoinForNewegg> that just sucks outside air in from somewhere else
 390 2011-07-07 01:12:32 <lfm> BitcoinForNewegg: you work a newegg?
 391 2011-07-07 01:12:35 <BitcoinForNewegg> no
 392 2011-07-07 01:12:37 <BitcoinForNewegg> god I wish
 393 2011-07-07 01:12:44 <b4epoche_> until you no longer work there might be sooner than you think
 394 2011-07-07 01:12:53 <BitcoinForNewegg> nah they need people
 395 2011-07-07 01:13:18 BlueMattBot has joined
 396 2011-07-07 01:13:19 <lfm> ya like if you "borowed 12 gpu from work for "test" that wont last long
 397 2011-07-07 01:13:26 <BitcoinForNewegg> my work dont have GPU :(
 398 2011-07-07 01:13:55 <BitcoinForNewegg> and the only servers that are spare are crap
 399 2011-07-07 01:14:54 <OppieT30> is bitcoind the server?
 400 2011-07-07 01:15:03 <BitcoinForNewegg> ?
 401 2011-07-07 01:15:05 markio has joined
 402 2011-07-07 01:15:18 Leo_II has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 403 2011-07-07 01:15:30 <lfm> OppieT30: bitcoind is headless server. you can also use bitcoin as a server with -server command line switch
 404 2011-07-07 01:16:01 <dsockwell> OppieT30: bitcoind is for machines that are too cool for monitors
 405 2011-07-07 01:16:26 <OppieT30> Laughs
 406 2011-07-07 01:19:27 <freakazoid> Monitors are for wimps
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 411 2011-07-07 01:25:46 * b4epoche_ is trying to find a use for his headless iphone4
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 418 2011-07-07 01:35:56 wolfspraul has joined
 419 2011-07-07 01:37:40 <kreal-> Diablo-D3: you here mate?
 420 2011-07-07 01:38:17 <kreal-> if you are, would you be kind and move my forum thread to the correct new section: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9321.0
 421 2011-07-07 01:38:43 Leo_II has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 422 2011-07-07 01:38:47 <kreal-> Marketplace -> Goods I think.
 423 2011-07-07 01:38:50 Leo_II has joined
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 428 2011-07-07 01:45:26 oozyburglar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 429 2011-07-07 01:47:45 TheShadow314 has joined
 430 2011-07-07 01:47:48 <kunnis> Does anyone have time to test an bug I think I've found?   I need a person who's running the btc client to help me test out a bug I want to check.  I just want to connect to it like any other user can.
 431 2011-07-07 01:48:04 scott`_ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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 434 2011-07-07 01:51:15 underscor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 435 2011-07-07 01:51:32 <justmoon> kunnis: btc1.justmoon.net 	justmoon 	109.75.176.226 	Up (0.3.20[.2])
 436 2011-07-07 01:51:51 <justmoon> it's a bitcoind though, no gui in case that matters
 437 2011-07-07 01:51:59 <kunnis> that'll work
 438 2011-07-07 01:52:13 lolwat` has joined
 439 2011-07-07 01:52:18 <kreal-> kunnis: dont you have your own bitcoin/bitcoind ?
 440 2011-07-07 01:52:27 <justmoon> if you manage to pwn the server you can keep it :]
 441 2011-07-07 01:52:32 <kunnis> It's a remote thing.
 442 2011-07-07 01:52:36 <kunnis> what is it?
 443 2011-07-07 01:52:44 <justmoon> it's a vserver at autovps
 444 2011-07-07 01:52:58 <justmoon> runs nothing but bitcoin
 445 2011-07-07 01:53:04 <justmoon> has no coins on it
 446 2011-07-07 01:53:10 <kunnis> simple enough, that's fine
 447 2011-07-07 01:53:13 <justmoon> perfect for situations like this :)
 448 2011-07-07 01:53:17 <kunnis> Yes
 449 2011-07-07 01:55:05 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 450 2011-07-07 01:59:49 Cherothald has joined
 451 2011-07-07 01:59:54 <b4epoche_> does anyone know if Mt. Gox's websocket be open?
 452 2011-07-07 01:59:57 <Diablo-D3> kreal-: I dont have powers there
 453 2011-07-07 02:00:08 <kreal-> ok, thanks anyhow.
 454 2011-07-07 02:00:15 <Diablo-D3> ask theymos
 455 2011-07-07 02:01:09 gim has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 456 2011-07-07 02:02:04 <kreal-> will do.
 457 2011-07-07 02:03:38 DaQatz has joined
 458 2011-07-07 02:03:39 <kreal-> so whats new?
 459 2011-07-07 02:04:33 nefario has joined
 460 2011-07-07 02:05:11 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 461 2011-07-07 02:06:09 <nefario> Any python devs on here?
 462 2011-07-07 02:07:31 underscor has joined
 463 2011-07-07 02:07:48 johnlockwood_ has joined
 464 2011-07-07 02:08:11 <phantomcircuit> nefario, yes
 465 2011-07-07 02:08:24 <nefario> hey phantom
 466 2011-07-07 02:08:36 <phantomcircuit> hello
 467 2011-07-07 02:08:48 <nefario> would you be able to help out on a glbse client problem
 468 2011-07-07 02:08:55 <phantomcircuit> sure
 469 2011-07-07 02:09:04 <nefario> command line client is getting a timeout error as a result of ssl
 470 2011-07-07 02:09:26 <nefario> Server error: SSL connection timeout at 297454.
 471 2011-07-07 02:09:33 <nefario> using pycurl
 472 2011-07-07 02:09:38 <phantomcircuit> link?
 473 2011-07-07 02:09:49 Herodes has joined
 474 2011-07-07 02:09:50 <nefario> It was working for a while but now it's just timing out
 475 2011-07-07 02:10:10 <nefario> no link
 476 2011-07-07 02:10:22 <nefario> wait
 477 2011-07-07 02:11:18 <nefario> code in question for the client
 478 2011-07-07 02:11:19 <nefario> https://gitorious.org/black-market/black-market-client/blobs/master/bmc.py
 479 2011-07-07 02:11:23 <nefario> server is nginx
 480 2011-07-07 02:11:35 <nefario> ssl certs included with client
 481 2011-07-07 02:13:05 <Herodes> I know there is a bitcoin testnet, is there a namecoin testnet as well? When getting my feet wet for the first time trying to do some automatic transactions, I'd like to use testcoins, and not real coins. Should I opt for the bitcoin testnet, or is there a namecoin testnet as well?
 482 2011-07-07 02:13:16 <b4epoche_> is anyone here using mtgox websocket?  I can't seem to connect but it looks like other sites are.
 483 2011-07-07 02:14:02 <Herodes> b4epoche: I haven't used it ever, but I think you must use credidentials? Have you checked these are correct?
 484 2011-07-07 02:15:31 dbasch has joined
 485 2011-07-07 02:15:33 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 486 2011-07-07 02:15:44 <b4epoche_> hmm...  that may be...
 487 2011-07-07 02:16:04 <b4epoche_> the getKey.php is down...  maybe the sites I'm seeing already had creds
 488 2011-07-07 02:18:24 <Herodes> yeah, i don't know, it was just somethign i tought of.
 489 2011-07-07 02:19:23 enquirer1 has joined
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 492 2011-07-07 02:22:34 <nefario> phantomcircuit, it seems to be a bug with with the platform im on (Ubuntu 11.04) specifically how gnu-tls and libcurl are interacting
 493 2011-07-07 02:23:29 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 494 2011-07-07 02:24:36 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 495 2011-07-07 02:25:28 sytse has joined
 496 2011-07-07 02:26:21 <nefario> seeing if package updates will fix
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 500 2011-07-07 02:32:02 <nefario> phantomcircuit: confirmed, it is an issue to this specific version of ubuntu
 501 2011-07-07 02:32:15 <nefario> works fine from another debian machine
 502 2011-07-07 02:32:16 brunner has joined
 503 2011-07-07 02:32:25 <nefario> thanks for your time
 504 2011-07-07 02:33:19 <phantomcircuit> uh ok then
 505 2011-07-07 02:33:20 <phantomcircuit> xS
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 524 2011-07-07 02:54:42 accel has joined
 525 2011-07-07 02:54:46 <accel> when all bitcoins are mined
 526 2011-07-07 02:54:49 <accel> how many bitcoins will there be?
 527 2011-07-07 02:55:22 <jgarzik> accel: approximately 21 million
 528 2011-07-07 02:55:46 <accel> so at $20.00 / BTC
 529 2011-07-07 02:55:50 <accel> it would be worth $400M
 530 2011-07-07 02:56:20 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 533 2011-07-07 03:03:35 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 534 2011-07-07 03:04:10 <lfm> ;;calc [bc,blocks]*50 +50
 535 2011-07-07 03:04:11 <gribble> (135,108 * 50) + 50 = 6,755,450
 536 2011-07-07 03:04:28 <lfm> current total bitcoins 6,755,450
 537 2011-07-07 03:05:40 <gmaxwell> minus the lost ones...
 538 2011-07-07 03:06:36 <lfm> ;;calc ([bc,blocks]*50 +50) *20
 539 2011-07-07 03:06:37 <gribble> ((135,108 * 50) + 50) * 20 = 135,109,000
 540 2011-07-07 03:07:08 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
 541 2011-07-07 03:07:09 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":16.5,"low":13.55,"avg":14.917334187,"vol":92778,"last":14.75015,"buy":14.75038,"sell":14.79}}
 542 2011-07-07 03:07:21 <lfm> ;;calc ([bc,blocks]*50 +50) * 14.75015
 543 2011-07-07 03:07:22 <gribble> ((135,108 * 50) + 50) * 14.75015 = 99,643,900.8
 544 2011-07-07 03:07:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Chris Howie * r0298673de9e4 mining-proxy/htdocs/common.inc.php: Change human_time() to support durations in the future, and to allow omission of the "ago"/"from now" suffix http://tinyurl.com/64jnx6n http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/mining-proxy.git/commitdiff/0298673de9e40e1484baa0d20f33b11e5f9149d1
 545 2011-07-07 03:07:37 <nanotube> ;;calc ([bc,blocks]*50 +50) * [ticker --last]
 546 2011-07-07 03:07:38 <gribble> ((135,108 * 50) + 50) * 14.75015 = 99,643,900.8
 547 2011-07-07 03:07:41 <nanotube> lfm: ^ :)
 548 2011-07-07 03:07:49 <lfm> cute
 549 2011-07-07 03:07:50 <nanotube> or even better...
 550 2011-07-07 03:07:55 K_F has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 551 2011-07-07 03:08:08 <nanotube> ;;calc ([bc,blocks] * 50 + 50) * [ticker --last]
 552 2011-07-07 03:08:09 <gribble> ((135,108 * 50) + 50) * 14.75015 = 99,643,900.8
 553 2011-07-07 03:08:11 <nanotube> :)
 554 2011-07-07 03:08:32 zeta-51b has joined
 555 2011-07-07 03:08:56 <lfm> isnt that the same?
 556 2011-07-07 03:09:53 <nanotube> yes it is. but without the manual copying of magic values :)
 557 2011-07-07 03:10:15 <nanotube> so you could keep running the same command every day and get updated mkt cap, e.g.
 558 2011-07-07 03:10:22 <gmaxwell> he mean
 559 2011-07-07 03:10:22 <gmaxwell> 20:05 <@nanotube> ;;calc ([bc,blocks] * 50 + 50) * [ticker --last]
 560 2011-07-07 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> 20:05 <@nanotube> ;;calc ([bc,blocks]*50 +50) * [ticker --last]
 561 2011-07-07 03:10:32 <gmaxwell> er meant
 562 2011-07-07 03:10:33 <nanotube> oh haha
 563 2011-07-07 03:10:36 <nanotube> yes
 564 2011-07-07 03:10:44 * nanotube looked at output, not input
 565 2011-07-07 03:10:53 <nanotube> thought bc,blocks output was copied heh
 566 2011-07-07 03:10:55 <nanotube> nvm
 567 2011-07-07 03:11:08 * nanotube wanders off whistling, as if nothing happened...
 568 2011-07-07 03:11:27 <lfm> nano ? how can i see full help from bc,help
 569 2011-07-07 03:11:38 <lfm> ;;bc,help
 570 2011-07-07 03:11:39 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias (1 more message)
 571 2011-07-07 03:14:19 <lfm> nanotube: ^^
 572 2011-07-07 03:14:57 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 573 2011-07-07 03:15:03 <nanotube> lfm: now run 'more'
 574 2011-07-07 03:15:17 <justmoon> I want to politely point out that with a currency it's called money supply, not market cap (because a currency is not a legal person owning capital, so there can't be a market capitalization, i.e. a market valuation of the capital) - please don't hate me now... :)
 575 2011-07-07 03:15:21 <nanotube> can always run more when you see (X more messages)
 576 2011-07-07 03:15:31 <lfm> ;;more
 577 2011-07-07 03:15:32 <gribble> bc,interval, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,mtgoxask, Alias bc,mtgoxbid, Alias bc,mtgoxlast, Alias bc,nethash, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,price, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,probd, Alias bc,slushpool, Alias bc,spotestimate, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,swepool, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, Alias bc,wiki, and Alias bc,xau
 578 2011-07-07 03:15:38 <lfm> ah! ok ty
 579 2011-07-07 03:15:46 <nanotube> justmoon: money supply is measured in bitcoins :)
 580 2011-07-07 03:15:58 <justmoon> no money supply can be measured in anything
 581 2011-07-07 03:16:11 <justmoon> for example the total money supply is x amount of dollars
 582 2011-07-07 03:16:18 <justmoon> is something an economist would say
 583 2011-07-07 03:16:22 <AlonzoTG> om
 584 2011-07-07 03:16:30 <nanotube> justmoon: yes, but would he say "the total money supply of dollars is X euros?
 585 2011-07-07 03:16:33 <nanotube> "
 586 2011-07-07 03:16:45 <nanotube> which is what you'd be saying if you say "the total money supply of bitcoins is 99million usd"
 587 2011-07-07 03:16:46 <justmoon> yes he would, if he's a european economist
 588 2011-07-07 03:16:57 <justmoon> yes, that's how you would correctly say it
 589 2011-07-07 03:17:36 <lfm> useless number anyway. can do more than that with circulation
 590 2011-07-07 03:17:56 <justmoon> lfm, also we don't know how much of it is lost
 591 2011-07-07 03:18:11 <lfm> and hoarded etc
 592 2011-07-07 03:18:17 <justmoon> exactly
 593 2011-07-07 03:19:40 <justmoon> it also doesn't include demand deposits (which would be zero if there aren't any bitcoin banks yet)
 594 2011-07-07 03:19:52 <justmoon> so it's M0 only - the monetary base
 595 2011-07-07 03:20:04 <lfm> mybitcoin.com and mtgox both are banks kinda
 596 2011-07-07 03:20:55 <lfm> even if theyre not doing fractional reserve stuff yet
 597 2011-07-07 03:21:07 <justmoon> lfm, yep, that's what matters in terms of money supply
 598 2011-07-07 03:21:39 * AlonzoTG is trying to write a driver for Bonzo The Clown's peer-peer protocol. 
 599 2011-07-07 03:21:56 <justmoon> AlonzoTG, btw in what language are you writing your client?
 600 2011-07-07 03:22:00 <AlonzoTG> I'm working on a message driver.
 601 2011-07-07 03:22:08 <lfm> ?? they use little cars for packets?
 602 2011-07-07 03:22:08 <AlonzoTG> Currently I'm working in C++ because I couldn't get ada working.
 603 2011-07-07 03:22:20 <justmoon> ok cool
 604 2011-07-07 03:22:31 <AlonzoTG> He did do a few smart things but the rest is kinda icky.
 605 2011-07-07 03:22:44 <AlonzoTG> -- using host byte order for a protocol...
 606 2011-07-07 03:22:57 <grbgout> nanotube: why isn't gribble in -market anymore?  I was gone for the weekend.
 607 2011-07-07 03:23:12 <AlonzoTG> variable length integers; I have a fairly beautiful variable length integer driver already.
 608 2011-07-07 03:23:36 <lfm> AlonzoTG: why not use gmp?
 609 2011-07-07 03:23:39 <nanotube> grbgout: farmed out the market feed to a separate bot.
 610 2011-07-07 03:23:49 <grbgout> nanotube: saw in -otc, thanks :)
 611 2011-07-07 03:23:58 <nanotube> k :)
 612 2011-07-07 03:24:02 <AlonzoTG> I'll look into that.
 613 2011-07-07 03:24:07 <AlonzoTG> there are several approaches.
 614 2011-07-07 03:24:20 <lfm> true
 615 2011-07-07 03:24:21 <AlonzoTG> It's just more code that has to be written and audited.
 616 2011-07-07 03:24:47 <nanotube> justmoon: well, since the same meaning is conveyed... i won't quibble either way :)
 617 2011-07-07 03:24:48 <lfm> gmp is a standard lib that should not need audit Id think
 618 2011-07-07 03:25:05 <AlonzoTG> I mean the lines of code I'll have to write to use it,
 619 2011-07-07 03:25:17 <AlonzoTG> Also, I try to justify every package I depend on.
 620 2011-07-07 03:25:37 <justmoon> nanotube, well, just avoid it when economists are present - they *will* cringe a little inside - as I do whenever I read gavin use the term in the newspaper :)
 621 2011-07-07 03:25:51 <AlonzoTG> Granted that gmp is a common package that is quite robust and powerful in a number of ways.
 622 2011-07-07 03:26:13 <lfm> AlonzoTG: I understand, gmp is fairly widespread but ya, there are several alternatives too
 623 2011-07-07 03:26:22 <nanotube> justmoon: :D
 624 2011-07-07 03:28:51 minemoney has quit ()
 625 2011-07-07 03:30:55 niekie has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
 626 2011-07-07 03:32:15 <AlonzoTG> my code is designed so that you can unit-test the snot out of it.
 627 2011-07-07 03:32:17 <AlonzoTG> =P
 628 2011-07-07 03:32:31 estornudo has joined
 629 2011-07-07 03:32:32 <AlonzoTG> and it will be multi-threaded,
 630 2011-07-07 03:32:37 <AlonzoTG> and IPv6 enabled.
 631 2011-07-07 03:32:41 <AlonzoTG> =P
 632 2011-07-07 03:33:24 niekie has joined
 633 2011-07-07 03:33:38 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
 634 2011-07-07 03:34:21 freakazoid has joined
 635 2011-07-07 03:35:23 minemoney has joined
 636 2011-07-07 03:35:47 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
 637 2011-07-07 03:36:22 <AlonzoTG> anyone wanna try out my varint driver? =P
 638 2011-07-07 03:36:46 <lianj> varint driver?
 639 2011-07-07 03:37:16 <AlonzoTG> I wrote a driver for the variable integer fields in the bitcoin protocol as part of my effort to re-implement the entire damn daemon.
 640 2011-07-07 03:37:49 <lianj> just curious about naming it a driver, where does that come from?
 641 2011-07-07 03:38:05 <AlonzoTG> Good question.
 642 2011-07-07 03:38:21 <lianj> its two simple functions :P
 643 2011-07-07 03:38:23 scott`_ has quit (Quit: scott`_)
 644 2011-07-07 03:38:25 <AlonzoTG> I've found that programming becomes a hell of a lot easier, especially in object oriented languages, when you think in terms of drivers.
 645 2011-07-07 03:38:45 <AlonzoTG> say you had a jpeg file, you write a driver for it,
 646 2011-07-07 03:39:09 <AlonzoTG> say you had a little thingie attached to your network and you want to talk to it -- you write a driver for it then you write another driver for the protocol that it speaks, etc...
 647 2011-07-07 03:39:15 NorthLite has joined
 648 2011-07-07 03:40:03 <AlonzoTG> At my previous job (man, I need a job!), there was this little PLC attached via a 9600 baud serial bus to a little network thumb thingy.
 649 2011-07-07 03:40:11 <AlonzoTG> OK.
 650 2011-07-07 03:40:30 <AlonzoTG> The previous implementation (java) treated everything procedurally,
 651 2011-07-07 03:40:35 <AlonzoTG> I broke it down into drivers.
 652 2011-07-07 03:40:53 <AlonzoTG> the first driver ended up with calls to establish the connection and carry out transactions -- that was it.
 653 2011-07-07 03:41:06 <AlonzoTG> The next driver implemented part of the fairly extensive command protocol it had.
 654 2011-07-07 03:41:35 <AlonzoTG> The driver above that managed sequences of commands,
 655 2011-07-07 03:42:00 <AlonzoTG> So finally, all I had to do was write code like "set this register to blah" and that was it, all the complexity was neatly organized.
 656 2011-07-07 03:42:31 <AlonzoTG> Actually, I had code above that which said "get all the registers for this production line"
 657 2011-07-07 03:42:32 <lianj> ok here is my driver, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/amG1yHKR442s1pmeARPm/  some would call it just a function though ;)
 658 2011-07-07 03:43:01 <AlonzoTG> ok,
 659 2011-07-07 03:43:04 rethaw has joined
 660 2011-07-07 03:43:15 <AlonzoTG> I haven't tried to compile my version yet, but I think it is reasonably close to compileable.
 661 2011-07-07 03:43:25 somuchwin2 has joined
 662 2011-07-07 03:43:42 <AlonzoTG> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/431813/
 663 2011-07-07 03:43:49 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 664 2011-07-07 03:44:15 <doublec> python wins
 665 2011-07-07 03:44:34 <doublec> thanks to the magic of 'unpack'
 666 2011-07-07 03:44:56 alfakini has quit (Quit: alfakini)
 667 2011-07-07 03:45:07 Herodes has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 668 2011-07-07 03:45:15 nhodges has joined
 669 2011-07-07 03:45:30 <lianj> doublec: thank god its ruby, but yea :) unpack ftw
 670 2011-07-07 03:45:32 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 671 2011-07-07 03:45:46 <doublec> lianj: haha, my knowledge of python/ruby is limited so I guessed :)
 672 2011-07-07 03:46:12 <AlonzoTG> unpack?!?!?!
 673 2011-07-07 03:46:14 <AlonzoTG> =\
 674 2011-07-07 03:46:41 <AlonzoTG> There are so many little interpreted languages these days that I gave up trying to figure out which one I should waste time learning so I'm sticking with C++.
 675 2011-07-07 03:46:48 glassresistor has joined
 676 2011-07-07 03:46:54 <lianj> doublec: iirc python has always to pass a refernce of self when defining methods. like def read_var_int(self, payload) thats the usualy hint for python
 677 2011-07-07 03:47:04 <AlonzoTG> Furthermore, my design goal for this implementation is 20,000 transactions a second for 20 years no time off.
 678 2011-07-07 03:47:06 <doublec> lianj: ah, good point
 679 2011-07-07 03:47:20 <rethaw> AlonzoTG: I learned C++ first and did everything with either bash perl or C++
 680 2011-07-07 03:47:31 <rethaw> now i've come to the python party a little late, but it is simply amazing
 681 2011-07-07 03:47:48 <rethaw> I wouldn't write it off if I were you
 682 2011-07-07 03:47:57 <doublec> My day job is c++ - I do as much as I can to avoid using it apart from that
 683 2011-07-07 03:48:23 <rethaw> hah
 684 2011-07-07 03:48:53 Gonzago has joined
 685 2011-07-07 03:49:10 bk128 has joined
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 689 2011-07-07 03:58:39 <Cryo> interesting article: http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/index.html
 690 2011-07-07 04:00:46 <phantomcircuit> odds of that being secure?
 691 2011-07-07 04:00:49 <phantomcircuit> 0.00001
 692 2011-07-07 04:05:21 <phantomcircuit> brocktice, uh hi who are you?
 693 2011-07-07 04:05:29 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 694 2011-07-07 04:06:21 Beremat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 695 2011-07-07 04:07:16 Beremat has joined
 696 2011-07-07 04:07:56 markio has quit ()
 697 2011-07-07 04:11:08 sacarlson has joined
 698 2011-07-07 04:12:35 <brocktice> phantomcircuit: hi?
 699 2011-07-07 04:12:46 <brocktice> what's up?
 700 2011-07-07 04:12:51 <phantomcircuit> why u try join the secretz chanz
 701 2011-07-07 04:13:08 <brocktice> I heard about it from someone?
 702 2011-07-07 04:13:31 <phantomcircuit> k who are you again?
 703 2011-07-07 04:14:18 <doublec> there's a secret channel?
 704 2011-07-07 04:14:31 <num1> ssshhh, what channel? :P
 705 2011-07-07 04:15:26 cuddlefish has joined
 706 2011-07-07 04:15:28 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 707 2011-07-07 04:16:41 <num1> I've been "temporarily banned" from #bitcoin for "autojoining", does anybody know how long these bans usually last?
 708 2011-07-07 04:16:52 <cuddlefish> num1: Go bug nameless|
 709 2011-07-07 04:17:08 <cuddlefish> i believe 5-15 mintues
 710 2011-07-07 04:17:16 <num1> huh, it's been a few days now :(
 711 2011-07-07 04:17:28 <cuddlefish> Yeah, bitch at nameless|
 712 2011-07-07 04:17:31 <num1> thanks, sure will
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 717 2011-07-07 04:21:52 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 718 2011-07-07 04:22:51 <cuddlefish> Oh my GOD I love freshen.
 719 2011-07-07 04:22:53 <cuddlefish> http://pastebin.com/xHqT02du
 720 2011-07-07 04:23:01 <cuddlefish> that's a test for Ubitex.
 721 2011-07-07 04:23:07 <cuddlefish> Not a description of the test
 722 2011-07-07 04:23:10 <cuddlefish> the actual test
 723 2011-07-07 04:23:43 <justmoon> that looks like cucumber
 724 2011-07-07 04:23:50 <cuddlefish> yeah, it's a clone of it :P
 725 2011-07-07 04:23:55 <cuddlefish> for python
 726 2011-07-07 04:23:59 <justmoon> awesome!
 727 2011-07-07 04:27:18 <num1> that's magical
 728 2011-07-07 04:27:31 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r841616367a6f supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/plugin.py: GPG: pull ident by nick checker into a nice method. http://tinyurl.com/6yrwl7j http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor.git/commitdiff/841616367a6f726b3a4ba84068ac80e5dc841aaf
 729 2011-07-07 04:27:33 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r073a6c334597 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/RatingSystem/ (plugin.py test.py): RatingSystem: output target user authentication status with getrating. http://tinyurl.com/622228r http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor.git/commitdiff/073a6c334597ebb6abee2b04f31baf1c51834716
 730 2011-07-07 04:27:39 <num1> so much better than separate tests and docs
 731 2011-07-07 04:28:24 <cuddlefish> num1: yeah
 732 2011-07-07 04:28:46 <justmoon> cuddlefish, from the Ubitex website: "And since you pay in cash, face-to-face, fraud is nearly eliminated." - clearly, you've never been mugged
 733 2011-07-07 04:28:54 <justmoon> ;)
 734 2011-07-07 04:28:57 <noagendamarket> heh
 735 2011-07-07 04:29:11 <noagendamarket> obviously dont meet in a dark alleyway
 736 2011-07-07 04:29:15 <noagendamarket> :)
 737 2011-07-07 04:29:19 <cuddlefish> yeah
 738 2011-07-07 04:29:22 <lfm> mugging isnt fraud
 739 2011-07-07 04:29:52 <noagendamarket> it would be fraud if they had counterfeit cash ...
 740 2011-07-07 04:30:45 <justmoon> this conversation is getting to complicated for me
 741 2011-07-07 04:30:51 * justmoon pulls emergency eject lever
 742 2011-07-07 04:31:06 <lfm> open the canopy first
 743 2011-07-07 04:31:12 <justmoon> *splat*
 744 2011-07-07 04:32:58 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 745 2011-07-07 04:33:08 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 746 2011-07-07 04:33:10 TheSeven has joined
 747 2011-07-07 04:33:50 <doublec> Ubitex should use geolocation - that'd make things like "Sellers Near Me" easier
 748 2011-07-07 04:34:08 NorthLite has left ()
 749 2011-07-07 04:34:18 <justmoon> also it should have a widget I can embed on weusecoins *hint, hint*
 750 2011-07-07 04:34:39 <doublec> it should also be international (if it isn't already)
 751 2011-07-07 04:34:48 <doublec> let the bikeshedding commence!
 752 2011-07-07 04:35:00 <noagendamarket> geocaching ftw
 753 2011-07-07 04:35:31 <cuddlefish> doublec: You know why I'm writing all these tests?
 754 2011-07-07 04:35:35 dbasch has joined
 755 2011-07-07 04:35:36 <cuddlefish> gigantic improvement in the works.
 756 2011-07-07 04:35:53 <doublec> cuddlefish: I assumed it was to procrastinate from doing real work...
 757 2011-07-07 04:35:58 * doublec hides
 758 2011-07-07 04:36:23 <justmoon> lol
 759 2011-07-07 04:36:25 btcrowan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 760 2011-07-07 04:36:30 <lianj> cuddlefish: because python needs more of them? P
 761 2011-07-07 04:36:57 <justmoon> programmers don't procrastinate - they "compile"
 762 2011-07-07 04:36:58 <doublec> by what magic does that test in the paste become real code?
 763 2011-07-07 04:37:05 btcrowan has joined
 764 2011-07-07 04:37:27 <doublec> that's pretty nifty
 765 2011-07-07 04:37:41 <doublec> so true justmoon
 766 2011-07-07 04:37:46 <justmoon> doublec, good intro here: http://cukes.info/
 767 2011-07-07 04:37:58 <doublec> thanks
 768 2011-07-07 04:38:15 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
 769 2011-07-07 04:38:18 <justmoon> disclaimer: I've never used it, but if cuddle says it's good I would tend to believe him
 770 2011-07-07 04:38:58 <noagendamarket> 1. I want to meet a girl 2. install flowers and chocolate 3. proceed to movie
 771 2011-07-07 04:39:19 <noagendamarket> test driven dating :)
 772 2011-07-07 04:40:07 <doublec> hehe
 773 2011-07-07 04:40:10 <justmoon> noagendamarket, note that in case of a violation you can't reinstall, you have to delete the whole thing, so make sure you sanitize your inputs
 774 2011-07-07 04:40:21 <noagendamarket> HAHA
 775 2011-07-07 04:40:33 <lianj> noagendamarket: and you must start with a failing date
 776 2011-07-07 04:40:46 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
 777 2011-07-07 04:41:00 <noagendamarket> dont put the dot in the wrong place
 778 2011-07-07 04:41:11 <noagendamarket> and you wont fail
 779 2011-07-07 04:41:12 <lfm> ;;calc [bc,totalbc]*[bc,mtgoxlast]
 780 2011-07-07 04:41:13 <gribble> 6,755,750.00000000 * 14.72229 = 99,460,110.7
 781 2011-07-07 04:41:38 <lfm> nanotube shorter yet
 782 2011-07-07 04:41:41 <lfm> ^^
 783 2011-07-07 04:41:47 <lfm> ;;calc [bc,totalbc]*[bc,mtgoxlast]
 784 2011-07-07 04:41:51 <gribble> 6,755,750.00000000 * 14.75 = 99,647,312.5
 785 2011-07-07 04:42:16 EPiSKiNG- has joined
 786 2011-07-07 04:43:31 Sylph has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 787 2011-07-07 04:44:27 <nanotube> lfm: hehe indeed :)
 788 2011-07-07 04:44:58 <lianj> cuddlefish: i often find cucumber a bit too much, but just rspec or even a suite of unittests is a good start for every project
 789 2011-07-07 04:45:29 <cuddlefish> lianj: I'm publishing the featureset
 790 2011-07-07 04:45:38 <cuddlefish> lianj: for user confidence reasons
 791 2011-07-07 04:46:13 Gonzago has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 792 2011-07-07 04:47:01 <lianj> sure, its maybe just me having hard times coming up with those good sentences cucumber wants :)
 793 2011-07-07 04:47:06 Gonzago has joined
 794 2011-07-07 04:47:26 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rfcc7499ccfac supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/RatingSystem/ (plugin.py test.py): RatingSystem: shorten getrating output, include auth status when no ratings as well. http://tinyurl.com/43pt5ql http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor.git/commitdiff/fcc7499ccfac5cc5c297a365b4156b64cc6cdfe6
 795 2011-07-07 04:47:27 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r6a25d33e32f1 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/RatingSystem/plugin.py: RatingSystem: bah, missing space in message http://tinyurl.com/43boao5 http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor.git/commitdiff/6a25d33e32f1e69078669fef100910b18b63c6f4
 796 2011-07-07 04:47:32 <cuddlefish> gaah
 797 2011-07-07 04:47:36 <cuddlefish> what is this botspam
 798 2011-07-07 04:48:42 Sylph has joined
 799 2011-07-07 04:49:40 warpi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 800 2011-07-07 04:50:04 <rethaw> someone is committing something
 801 2011-07-07 04:50:08 <justmoon> luke-jr, is it possible that you put only your client on CIA and leave out other projects? we gotta draw the line somewhere
 802 2011-07-07 04:50:09 <rethaw> and wants us all to know
 803 2011-07-07 04:51:35 <luke-jr> justmoon: ?
 804 2011-07-07 04:51:50 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 805 2011-07-07 04:51:54 <lfm> cia spam seems to be growing
 806 2011-07-07 04:51:57 <justmoon> CIA just notified us that you fixed a space in "supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor"
 807 2011-07-07 04:52:02 <luke-jr> justmoon: the only thing new is the long URI being appended, and that was someone else
 808 2011-07-07 04:52:06 <luke-jr> I didn't do anything
 809 2011-07-07 04:52:24 <num1> what's CIA?
 810 2011-07-07 04:52:26 <justmoon> luke-jr, I'm not saying you did, I'm saying you include too much stuff in your CIA stream
 811 2011-07-07 04:52:42 <lfm> not your fault  think, whoever set up cia bot with github was too generous
 812 2011-07-07 04:52:45 <cuddlefish> luke-jr: perhaps only tagged branches?
 813 2011-07-07 04:52:46 <justmoon> I don't wanna go as far as BlueMatt and say remove your repo, but can you keep it to bitcoin client stuff only maybe?
 814 2011-07-07 04:52:53 <luke-jr> justmoon: again, there is nothing new. CIA has been around for months, if not longer
 815 2011-07-07 04:53:25 <luke-jr> cuddlefish: BitGit only does CIA for branches configured for it
 816 2011-07-07 04:53:28 <lfm> luke-jr ya but there are more porjects getting added there I think
 817 2011-07-07 04:53:47 <luke-jr> lfm: sure, and if someone wants to add it with CIA, that's not my business
 818 2011-07-07 04:53:59 <luke-jr> that supybot plugin has been enabled for months at least
 819 2011-07-07 04:54:07 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 820 2011-07-07 04:54:17 <luke-jr> and once in a while people DO mess up and commit something that needs an immediate fix following up
 821 2011-07-07 04:54:25 <lfm> like I/we said not really your fault
 822 2011-07-07 04:54:34 <justmoon> luke-jr, suit yourself
 823 2011-07-07 04:54:42 <luke-jr> justmoon: nothing to do with me
 824 2011-07-07 04:55:16 <doublec> just /ignore the bot if you don't want to see it
 825 2011-07-07 04:55:30 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 826 2011-07-07 04:55:34 <luke-jr> doublec++
 827 2011-07-07 04:56:24 <cuddlefish> I want to see the commits... but can you make it a bit shorter?
 828 2011-07-07 04:56:40 <cuddlefish> maybe commithash, repo, and message
 829 2011-07-07 04:56:47 <justmoon> alright, I'll remove the long url
 830 2011-07-07 04:57:00 <luke-jr> cuddlefish: that's what it was until someone (not me) added the long URIs
 831 2011-07-07 04:57:36 <justmoon> luke-jr we added the long urls because we enabled cropping multiline commit messages
 832 2011-07-07 04:57:47 <justmoon> and that cuts off the short url for multiline commits
 833 2011-07-07 04:58:18 <nanotube> luke-jr: maybe set up a separate channel for the commitstream? :)
 834 2011-07-07 04:58:28 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 835 2011-07-07 04:58:37 <luke-jr> nanotube: why me?
 836 2011-07-07 04:58:42 <luke-jr> and why now?
 837 2011-07-07 04:58:49 <nanotube> luke-jr: dunno... it seems people are assuming that you control that bot :)
 838 2011-07-07 04:58:58 <nanotube> also, i am personally fine with it
 839 2011-07-07 04:59:08 <nanotube> i'm only jumping into the ongoing discussion ;)
 840 2011-07-07 04:59:31 * luke-jr has enough going on with Eligius :p
 841 2011-07-07 05:00:47 <justmoon> nanotube, I can move the bot, but I don't want to do it on my authority, Diablo-D3 set it up in september last year and since then it's been sort of a communal asset :)
 842 2011-07-07 05:00:48 <lfm> luke-jr btw do ALL the blocks mined at Eligius have the "Eligius" xnonce stamp?
 843 2011-07-07 05:01:04 <luke-jr> lfm: no, just recent ones
 844 2011-07-07 05:01:08 <luke-jr> I think starting with Ti
 845 2011-07-07 05:01:25 <lfm> ok so all since then
 846 2011-07-07 05:01:45 <luke-jr> lfm: yeah, why? ;)
 847 2011-07-07 05:02:07 <lfm> luke-jr just snooping in the block chain and noticed them
 848 2011-07-07 05:02:14 <luke-jr> hehe
 849 2011-07-07 05:02:20 <luke-jr> you might be the first ;)
 850 2011-07-07 05:02:42 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 851 2011-07-07 05:02:50 <luke-jr> no guarantee it remains that though :p
 852 2011-07-07 05:02:58 <nanotube> justmoon: i'm fine with it as is. was just throwing out a suggestion ;)
 853 2011-07-07 05:03:03 <luke-jr> might make it the system hostname so they're more unique
 854 2011-07-07 05:03:25 johnlockwood_ has quit (Quit: johnlockwood_)
 855 2011-07-07 05:03:57 <lfm> luke-jr might not want them to stand out that way for miners tha try to switch on blocks.
 856 2011-07-07 05:04:12 <luke-jr> lfm: ?
 857 2011-07-07 05:04:20 <luke-jr> lfm: Eligius welcomes pool hoppers
 858 2011-07-07 05:04:30 <lfm> oh ok, nm
 859 2011-07-07 05:04:55 <kunnis> Does anyone have time to test an bug I think I've found?   I need a person who's running the btc client on livenet to help me test out a bug I want to check.  I just want to connect to it like any other user can.
 860 2011-07-07 05:05:05 <phantomcircuit> MTGOX IS NOW ON A NEW SITE
 861 2011-07-07 05:05:06 <phantomcircuit> http://covertinferno.org/~phantomcircuit/mtgox.com/users/login
 862 2011-07-07 05:05:11 * phantomcircuit le trol
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 867 2011-07-07 05:05:48 <lfm> phantomcircuit: not nice
 868 2011-07-07 05:06:14 Clipse has joined
 869 2011-07-07 05:06:23 <justmoon> kunnis, again?
 870 2011-07-07 05:07:05 <kunnis> Yes, I (think) I have a working version of my bug.  I need to try it now with someone.
 871 2011-07-07 05:07:21 <justmoon> well use my server again if you want btc1.justmoon.net
 872 2011-07-07 05:07:24 <kunnis> I tried using yours, but it doesn't respond to all of the commands.  I send a version to it, and it doesn't reply to it
 873 2011-07-07 05:07:38 <justmoon> it's a standard bitcoind 0.3.20.2
 874 2011-07-07 05:08:02 <phantomcircuit> lfm, try and login
 875 2011-07-07 05:08:21 <kunnis> This is an idea, not a confirmed bug :)
 876 2011-07-07 05:08:28 <kunnis> *tries again*
 877 2011-07-07 05:09:18 <kunnis> is it's blockchain current?
 878 2011-07-07 05:09:36 <justmoon> let me check
 879 2011-07-07 05:11:54 <doublec> justmoon: I have a recent bitcoind running on bitparking.com you can use to test
 880 2011-07-07 05:12:09 <justmoon> I'm not testing anything, kunnis is
 881 2011-07-07 05:12:21 <doublec> oh, sorry
 882 2011-07-07 05:12:23 <justmoon> kunnis, might wanna use his server, mine isn't responding to ssh right now
 883 2011-07-07 05:12:26 <kunnis> mind if I use it?
 884 2011-07-07 05:12:27 <luke-jr> custom 0.3.23 on su.mining.eligius.st ;)
 885 2011-07-07 05:12:30 <doublec> kunnis: sure
 886 2011-07-07 05:12:40 <doublec> kunnis: mines running 0.3.24 release candidate
 887 2011-07-07 05:12:45 <luke-jr>     "connections" : 985,
 888 2011-07-07 05:12:50 <kunnis> doublec  Can you check to make sure it's block chain is current?
 889 2011-07-07 05:12:57 <doublec> kunnis: it is
 890 2011-07-07 05:13:01 <kunnis> ok
 891 2011-07-07 05:13:04 * luke-jr thought he capped it a little lower than that O.o
 892 2011-07-07 05:13:09 <kunnis> ip address?
 893 2011-07-07 05:13:19 <kunnis> or dns?
 894 2011-07-07 05:13:24 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 895 2011-07-07 05:13:40 <doublec> kunnis: 206.71.179.116
 896 2011-07-07 05:13:44 <kunnis> thanks
 897 2011-07-07 05:13:47 <doublec> kunnis: aka bitparking.com
 898 2011-07-07 05:13:51 <kunnis> ah, okay
 899 2011-07-07 05:14:12 <lolwat`> lol @ bitcoin devs not registering a TM
 900 2011-07-07 05:14:25 <kunnis> okay, now we just need to wait about 15-20 mins to see if it keeps up with the block chain
 901 2011-07-07 05:14:34 <lolwat`> i thought US is first-to-file for TMs... lolwat
 902 2011-07-07 05:15:06 glassresistor has joined
 903 2011-07-07 05:15:31 <luke-jr> lolwat`: nope
 904 2011-07-07 05:15:40 <luke-jr> in the US, you don't need to file/register for a TM
 905 2011-07-07 05:15:43 <luke-jr> it's automatic
 906 2011-07-07 05:15:52 <lolwat`> oh good
 907 2011-07-07 05:16:04 <lolwat`> i thought I remembered learning one of the three was dumb
 908 2011-07-07 05:16:11 <lolwat`> I know patents are first-to-invent
 909 2011-07-07 05:17:08 <lolwat`> i dont understand why people do things like this
 910 2011-07-07 05:17:16 <lolwat`> it's like stabbing a beehive with a stick
 911 2011-07-07 05:17:41 <justmoon> lolwat`, exactly, they do it because they are hoping to end up with some honey
 912 2011-07-07 05:18:14 <lolwat`> it just makes no sense
 913 2011-07-07 05:18:22 <lolwat`> how many bitcoin-related things are legitimate businesses
 914 2011-07-07 05:18:29 <lolwat`> and of those, how many are in US jurisdiction
 915 2011-07-07 05:18:54 <lolwat`> oops missed this was -dev sorry for OT
 916 2011-07-07 05:23:28 nus- has joined
 917 2011-07-07 05:25:20 <num1> cuddlefish thanks for pointing me at nameless, he cleared it all up
 918 2011-07-07 05:25:43 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|cuddlefish: Stop sending people with problems my way, you know I just ban them and blame it on a script
 919 2011-07-07 05:25:46 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|:p
 920 2011-07-07 05:25:48 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I mean...
 921 2011-07-07 05:26:32 <luke-jr> lol
 922 2011-07-07 05:26:34 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 923 2011-07-07 05:27:48 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|lolwat`: OT is ok so long as there's no other conversation going on. It's bad when there are people actually trying to do -dev stuff and it's OT
 924 2011-07-07 05:28:56 <justmoon> nameless|, I concur
 925 2011-07-07 05:29:25 <justmoon> -dev is my only pleasure while I wait for another difficulty 1 test block being generated by my crappy graphics card
 926 2011-07-07 05:32:57 <lolwat`> fuck
 927 2011-07-07 05:32:58 <lolwat`> http://bitcoindomains.blogspot.com/
 928 2011-07-07 05:33:01 <lolwat`> DNS is so broken
 929 2011-07-07 05:33:47 <justmoon> "bitcoinarmy.com" - hell yeah :D
 930 2011-07-07 05:33:50 <lolwat`> there must be a way to do DNS or namecoin without squatters
 931 2011-07-07 05:34:09 <luke-jr> regulation
 932 2011-07-07 05:34:10 <lolwat`> maybe something like namecoin but where the network may vote to take away your domain if you're not using it
 933 2011-07-07 05:34:33 <rethaw> funny thing is the most used bitcoin related domain aside from bitcoin.org doesn't even have bitcoin in the domain, or even a b
 934 2011-07-07 05:34:35 <justmoon> lolwat`, lolwat?
 935 2011-07-07 05:34:50 <justmoon> what if they vote to take it away from you and you *are* using it
 936 2011-07-07 05:34:53 <lolwat`> luke-jr, that's the easy way out :]  I mean is there some way to do it in something like e.g. namecoin that is decentralized
 937 2011-07-07 05:35:05 <lolwat`> justmoon, then I guess it sucks for you
 938 2011-07-07 05:35:11 <lolwat`> but i mean 50% of people can do anything they want
 939 2011-07-07 05:35:19 <luke-jr> lolwat`: no
 940 2011-07-07 05:35:40 <lolwat`> I think it could be done
 941 2011-07-07 05:35:49 <lolwat`> i had a thread on main forum that pissed a bunch of people off
 942 2011-07-07 05:35:59 <lolwat`> describing what I would consider the ideal bitcoin client
 943 2011-07-07 05:36:05 <luke-jr> democracy is fundamentally flawed
 944 2011-07-07 05:36:10 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I disagree
 945 2011-07-07 05:36:21 <lolwat`> one that gave very precise control over all parameters
 946 2011-07-07 05:36:27 <luke-jr> Bitcoin works because only the protocol is democratic
 947 2011-07-07 05:36:35 <lolwat`> er consists of two parts
 948 2011-07-07 05:36:39 <luke-jr> not the content
 949 2011-07-07 05:36:57 <lolwat`> 1) a bitcoin client where you can modify ALL parameters (BTC issued per block, difficulty, etc)
 950 2011-07-07 05:37:20 <lolwat`> 2) a method of "announcing" your acceptable parameter ranges, which would be included in your shares
 951 2011-07-07 05:37:32 <lolwat`> basically imagine the big-scoreboard hash model
 952 2011-07-07 05:37:48 <lolwat`> where people submit their shares, but it also includes their "acceptable parameters" range
 953 2011-07-07 05:38:31 <lolwat`> the scoreboard now allows a group of dissenters to find each other in a verifiable way
 954 2011-07-07 05:39:41 Beccara has joined
 955 2011-07-07 05:39:47 <lolwat`> eg., say a share is a normal mining share, but included in the merkleroot info is a) "this is what I would like the BTC issued per block to be" b) "This is the maximum BTC per block I'll accept"
 956 2011-07-07 05:39:58 <lolwat`> and other parameters
 957 2011-07-07 05:39:59 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 958 2011-07-07 05:40:11 <lolwat`> then people could slowly tweak them
 959 2011-07-07 05:40:15 <lolwat`> see if others agree
 960 2011-07-07 05:40:35 <lolwat`> and if so, actually change things without the problem of "noone wants to change first because then their blocks won't be accepted"
 961 2011-07-07 05:41:04 <lolwat`> really this is how things are now, just if I want to change something I need to go write a new client
 962 2011-07-07 05:41:16 <lolwat`> the purpose of this would be to recognize that, and make it really easy
 963 2011-07-07 05:41:43 <lolwat`> as of right now if I want to make a change I must (a) write a client (b) distribute it (c) convince others to use it
 964 2011-07-07 05:41:57 <lolwat`> the client I propose just requires (c)
 965 2011-07-07 05:42:34 <lolwat`> the same thing could also be used by people to do whatever they want
 966 2011-07-07 05:42:41 <lolwat`> if they want lynchmobs, they can form them
 967 2011-07-07 05:42:47 <lolwat`> blacklist addresses
 968 2011-07-07 05:42:50 <lolwat`> revoke namecoin names
 969 2011-07-07 05:42:50 <lolwat`> etc
 970 2011-07-07 05:43:14 <lolwat`> it's dishonest to say these things aren't possible now -- they are, just noone's written a client to do them
 971 2011-07-07 05:43:29 <lolwat`> I say write the client to do all these things and sit back and watch and see if 50% will do them
 972 2011-07-07 05:43:49 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 973 2011-07-07 05:44:11 <justmoon> lolwat`, it doesn't matter how many people adopt a different client, if they change the rules they'll be on a separate network
 974 2011-07-07 05:44:40 <justmoon> it could be 30% of the people adopting the new rules, then they'll have their little 30% network and the other will have their 70% network
 975 2011-07-07 05:44:40 <lolwat`> justmoon, what do you mean
 976 2011-07-07 05:44:46 <lolwat`> yes exactly
 977 2011-07-07 05:44:59 <lolwat`> er but the point is
 978 2011-07-07 05:45:12 <lolwat`> if you want to do business with those 70% you need to maintain a chain consistent with theirs
 979 2011-07-07 05:45:23 <justmoon> yep and vice versa
 980 2011-07-07 05:45:56 <lolwat`> so the idea is that the scoreboard is like a public poll/verifiable way to tell what everyone's thinking
 981 2011-07-07 05:46:00 <lolwat`> and what they're willing to accept
 982 2011-07-07 05:46:21 hachque has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 983 2011-07-07 05:46:32 <justmoon> I wouldn't use a democratic client. democracy is flawed like luke said, it justifies 51% stealing from the remaining 49%
 984 2011-07-07 05:46:37 <lolwat`> once you have that it seems much easier to make changes
 985 2011-07-07 05:46:49 <lolwat`> justmoon, but the current bitcoin client *is* democratic
 986 2011-07-07 05:46:57 <justmoon> no it's not
 987 2011-07-07 05:47:12 <lolwat`> 51% can wreak havoc on the network
 988 2011-07-07 05:47:15 dbitcoin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 989 2011-07-07 05:47:29 <justmoon> ok so the 51% debate again
 990 2011-07-07 05:47:37 <lolwat`> er
 991 2011-07-07 05:47:48 <lolwat`> what can people do in my system
 992 2011-07-07 05:47:54 <lolwat`> that they can't do in bitcoin
 993 2011-07-07 05:47:57 <justmoon> I've got my mum on the phone waiting for tech support, gotta run
 994 2011-07-07 05:47:58 <lolwat`> by writing a new client
 995 2011-07-07 05:48:31 <lolwat`> there's nothing... if you set your parameters to only accept blocks with 50BTC gen, youd be just like you were now
 996 2011-07-07 05:48:52 <lolwat`> but if everyone else sets them differently and you refuse to switch, you're stuck on your own
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1014 2011-07-07 06:25:48 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
1015 2011-07-07 06:25:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135130 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1957 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 32 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1598660.65278585
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1031 2011-07-07 06:45:37 <marvin_> ;;bc,stats
1032 2011-07-07 06:45:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135133 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1954 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 52 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1607537.91959202
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1040 2011-07-07 06:50:48 <dikidera> ;;bc,stats
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1042 2011-07-07 06:50:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135135 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1952 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 14 hours, 25 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1634005.98701408
1043 2011-07-07 06:50:54 <dikidera> lolwut?
1044 2011-07-07 06:50:58 <dikidera> fail difficulty
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1046 2011-07-07 06:51:28 <dikidera> fail difficulty cause it did squat
1047 2011-07-07 06:51:38 <dikidera> 60 blocks and more were minted
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1054 2011-07-07 06:59:05 <rurufufuss> question to all the dev's, what's a good way to start delving into bitcoin networks?
1055 2011-07-07 06:59:11 em has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1056 2011-07-07 06:59:12 <lfm> seconds 1h
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1058 2011-07-07 06:59:26 <rurufufuss> I'm trying to make a tool to draw network charts/graphs
1059 2011-07-07 06:59:36 <rurufufuss> of the bitcoin network
1060 2011-07-07 06:59:49 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
1061 2011-07-07 07:00:19 <justmoon> rurufufuss, are you looking for information or for a tool/program that can help you?
1062 2011-07-07 07:00:36 <dikidera> he wants to write a tool
1063 2011-07-07 07:00:40 <lfm> rurufufuss: or watch the irc channel(s)
1064 2011-07-07 07:00:41 <dikidera> not dl one
1065 2011-07-07 07:00:53 <justmoon> yeah, well he'll have to write one
1066 2011-07-07 07:01:00 <rurufufuss> information, trying to plug the graph into a graph visualization tool
1067 2011-07-07 07:01:09 <rurufufuss> namely skyrails
1068 2011-07-07 07:01:35 <justmoon> rurufufuss, ok, my question was kind of unclear
1069 2011-07-07 07:01:41 <rurufufuss> the #bitcoin guys are telling me to look at the source code, but I suppose there might be a protocol reference around?
1070 2011-07-07 07:01:54 <justmoon> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
1071 2011-07-07 07:01:59 <lfm> rurufufuss: nice guess, just wrong
1072 2011-07-07 07:02:59 <rurufufuss> gracias senor/senorita
1073 2011-07-07 07:02:59 <justmoon> rurufufuss, is there any programming language you're particularly comfortable with?
1074 2011-07-07 07:03:05 <rurufufuss> c++
1075 2011-07-07 07:03:19 <justmoon> yeah, then you'll probably want to hack the official client to do your bidding
1076 2011-07-07 07:03:24 <rurufufuss> not the best answer for getting the right APIs eh?
1077 2011-07-07 07:03:33 <rurufufuss> hmm
1078 2011-07-07 07:03:55 <rurufufuss> wish there was something like libbitcoin
1079 2011-07-07 07:04:04 <justmoon> rurufufuss, often suggested never implemented
1080 2011-07-07 07:04:12 <rurufufuss> I see
1081 2011-07-07 07:04:28 <rurufufuss> am I right in assuming that the channel here is for the official bitcoin program developers?
1082 2011-07-07 07:04:41 <justmoon> not really, I'm the developer for an alternative client
1083 2011-07-07 07:04:43 <lfm> theoreticly
1084 2011-07-07 07:04:48 <rurufufuss> I see
1085 2011-07-07 07:04:56 <justmoon> so it's pretty much all kinds of bitcoin related development in here
1086 2011-07-07 07:05:01 <justmoon> (imho)
1087 2011-07-07 07:05:08 <rurufufuss> right, that makes sense too I guess
1088 2011-07-07 07:05:15 <lfm> all sorts of bitcoin related dev kinda
1089 2011-07-07 07:05:20 <rurufufuss> bitcoin startup devs? :p
1090 2011-07-07 07:05:34 <justmoon> earlier we were talking to the dev of https://ubitex.org/
1091 2011-07-07 07:05:53 <justmoon> so yeah, all kinds of stuff
1092 2011-07-07 07:06:20 <rurufufuss> interesting, this is like the new frontier of startups huh
1093 2011-07-07 07:06:36 <lfm> one of em
1094 2011-07-07 07:06:38 <rurufufuss> since google+ and facebook basically guarantees you can't make it big making social-based startups
1095 2011-07-07 07:07:33 <lfm> ya, itd be kinda late for yet another socail net
1096 2011-07-07 07:08:12 <rurufufuss> anyways, in the official bitcoin app
1097 2011-07-07 07:08:30 <rurufufuss> I assume the UI is not coupled too tightly with the real engine
1098 2011-07-07 07:08:43 <justmoon> well, it could be worse I guess
1099 2011-07-07 07:08:46 <rurufufuss> suppose it's possible to rip out the engine to make an explorer?
1100 2011-07-07 07:08:47 em has joined
1101 2011-07-07 07:08:52 <justmoon> bitcoind is headless
1102 2011-07-07 07:08:55 <justmoon> so no gui there
1103 2011-07-07 07:09:06 <rurufufuss> bitcoind? some kind of command line stuff?
1104 2011-07-07 07:09:11 <justmoon> yep
1105 2011-07-07 07:09:21 <lfm> part of the standard client
1106 2011-07-07 07:10:03 <rurufufuss> sweet, I suppose that must be a good starting point
1107 2011-07-07 07:10:31 <lfm> then use the rpc interface for your interface if you want
1108 2011-07-07 07:10:45 <rurufufuss> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
1109 2011-07-07 07:10:53 <rurufufuss> is that still relevant?
1110 2011-07-07 07:11:16 <lfm> a starting point at least sure
1111 2011-07-07 07:11:46 <rurufufuss> awesome, thanks, thats a good starting point
1112 2011-07-07 07:11:49 <rurufufuss> will read more etc
1113 2011-07-07 07:11:49 <lfm> prolly a few changes since then, not sure
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1125 2011-07-07 07:30:34 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r5ac0fb4 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Implemented/fixed submission of new blocks. (+6 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/qD1NF1 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/5ac0fb4299ec13d59f1749ab00f4f8ae37bf5ba1
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1137 2011-07-07 07:40:49 <aristidesfl> The main problem of bitcoin is being too slow, from the client to the transactions
1138 2011-07-07 07:41:27 <aristidesfl> the second bit problem of bitcoin are the giant pools
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1140 2011-07-07 07:41:54 <justmoon> aristidesfl, wow, you just listed three solved problems which are the three most faqs
1141 2011-07-07 07:42:09 <dikidera> ;;bc,stats
1142 2011-07-07 07:42:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135140 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1947 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 33 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1644082.32346779
1143 2011-07-07 07:42:22 <aristidesfl> justmoon: solved? how?
1144 2011-07-07 07:42:33 <justmoon> ad 1. lightweight clients don't need to download the blockchain, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmFwnIRG9c
1145 2011-07-07 07:43:40 <justmoon> ad 2. you don't need to wait for confirmation, double spends are a small finite risk, especially with additional measures, we envision transaction processing services that will monitor the network, minimize the probability of a double spend and cover your remaining risk for a fee - that will allow secure transactions within about four seconds
1146 2011-07-07 07:43:50 em has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1147 2011-07-07 07:44:23 <justmoon> ad 3. pools are not powerful. their income depends on a good exchange rate which in turn depends on them not screwing with transaction processing. in addition miners will switch away from pools if they ever misbehave for the same reason
1148 2011-07-07 07:45:08 <justmoon> when deepbit reached >50%: 1. they didn't misbehave (why would they) and 2. miner immediately started switching to get them below 50% again, just to be safe
1149 2011-07-07 07:45:22 em has joined
1150 2011-07-07 07:45:34 <justmoon> that's the short version, if you need more info, google, bitcoin wiki, bitcoin forum
1151 2011-07-07 07:47:23 <aristidesfl> justmoon: 2, you envision, but you don't have, so not soved
1152 2011-07-07 07:48:05 <justmoon> aristidesfl, well, right now, since nobody is really exploiting double spends yet, many places accept transactions without confirmation
1153 2011-07-07 07:48:13 <justmoon> like mybitcoin
1154 2011-07-07 07:48:28 <justmoon> so it's solved for now and by the time it becomes a problem it'll be solved for real :)
1155 2011-07-07 07:48:40 <justmoon> plus I'm working on no 1 which I consider more urgent
1156 2011-07-07 07:48:41 <aristidesfl> justmoon: the problem are not the places who already accept bitcoin
1157 2011-07-07 07:49:10 Pinion has quit (Quit: Has quit)
1158 2011-07-07 07:49:14 <aristidesfl> ccept bitcoins
1159 2011-07-07 07:49:25 <aristidesfl> justmoon: is the problems normal merchants face if they want to accept bitcoins
1160 2011-07-07 07:50:02 <justmoon> sure, I'm working on no 1 because that's more important
1161 2011-07-07 07:50:18 <justmoon> also on wallet security, which you didn't mention
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1164 2011-07-07 07:50:57 <aristidesfl> justmoon: yeah………………………. but that is still in the hands of the user
1165 2011-07-07 07:51:09 <aristidesfl> sure it could be more straightfoward
1166 2011-07-07 07:51:14 <justmoon> what is in the hands of the user?
1167 2011-07-07 07:51:25 <aristidesfl> justmoon: security of wallet
1168 2011-07-07 07:51:31 em has joined
1169 2011-07-07 07:51:48 <justmoon> yeah, but the user does kind of what the application tells them to do
1170 2011-07-07 07:51:56 <justmoon> also you can do a lot more than the current client does
1171 2011-07-07 07:52:09 <aristidesfl> sure, for mainstream usage is unsecure
1172 2011-07-07 07:52:16 <justmoon> like deterministic wallets allow forward backups (backups that will never be out of date)
1173 2011-07-07 07:52:28 <justmoon> current clients doesn't have that yet
1174 2011-07-07 07:52:31 <justmoon> client*
1175 2011-07-07 07:53:04 <aristidesfl> backups which will never be out of date? aren't they limited to 100 transactions?
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1177 2011-07-07 07:53:55 <justmoon> currently yes, but you can also generate one master key and derive all future keys from it, then if you backup your master key, if you lose your wallet you can derive all your keys from it again
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1183 2011-07-07 07:55:55 <aristidesfl> justmoon: regarding 3,  was now refering to that problem
1184 2011-07-07 07:55:56 <justmoon> TD, good morning :)
1185 2011-07-07 07:56:25 <justmoon> aristidesfl, don't understand that sentence
1186 2011-07-07 07:56:26 <aristidesfl> the security of the system relies on the amount of distributed nodes
1187 2011-07-07 07:56:41 <aristidesfl> justmoon: regarding 3,  was not refering to that problem
1188 2011-07-07 07:56:57 <aristidesfl> having node grouped in pools
1189 2011-07-07 07:56:59 em has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1190 2011-07-07 07:57:19 <justmoon> you mean that the pools can be taken out by ddos etc?
1191 2011-07-07 07:57:28 <aristidesfl> justmoon: yes
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1194 2011-07-07 07:58:24 <justmoon> aristidesfl, yeah, that's kind of an open issue, but ddos defense is an issue for every website and pools are no exception
1195 2011-07-07 07:59:36 <justmoon> the whole mining stuff really only affects transaction processing though, i.e. if something bad happens there it'll be temporary downtime, not lost coins or any other permanent damage
1196 2011-07-07 07:59:54 <aristidesfl> justmoon: double spending
1197 2011-07-07 08:00:10 <justmoon> are possible but still hard to pull of
1198 2011-07-07 08:01:58 <justmoon> the solutions for this are there, the reason nobody is spending their time or money on it yet is because it hasn't happened yet
1199 2011-07-07 08:02:17 <aristidesfl> justmoon:  solutions?
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1201 2011-07-07 08:03:04 <justmoon> yes, merchants can insure themselves against double spends, the insurance companies can do active and passive risk aversion, through hashing, reserve hashing capacity, etc. depending on the source and type of attack
1202 2011-07-07 08:03:44 <justmoon> but in order to start an insurance company against double spends, you need demand from merchants, and you won't get that unless double spends are actually happening
1203 2011-07-07 08:03:55 em has joined
1204 2011-07-07 08:07:10 <aristidesfl> justmoon: the javascript client looks cool, but it's more about the server..
1205 2011-07-07 08:07:35 <aristidesfl> who would run such server?
1206 2011-07-07 08:07:42 <justmoon> aristidesfl, who runs email servers?
1207 2011-07-07 08:08:02 mrb_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1208 2011-07-07 08:08:07 <justmoon> or web servers? or video hosting sites? - you get the point
1209 2011-07-07 08:08:40 <aristidesfl> fair enough
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1219 2011-07-07 08:16:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit, jgarzik: found anything regarding the account stuff / rpc lockup?
1220 2011-07-07 08:17:02 <sipa> jgarzik: seems my v0.3.24rc1 bitcoind on bitcoin.sipa.be segfaulted
1221 2011-07-07 08:17:11 <sipa> i'll try to reproduce
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1223 2011-07-07 08:19:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it doesn't occur on testnet with an actual git head (turns out that branch wasn't 100% upto date)
1224 2011-07-07 08:20:30 <sipa> ok, good
1225 2011-07-07 08:20:35 <doublec> I've ever had a segfault from bitcoind on a fairly busy server, but I don't use accounts
1226 2011-07-07 08:20:42 <doublec> s/ever/never
1227 2011-07-07 08:20:47 em has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1228 2011-07-07 08:20:49 <sipa> doublec: bitcoin.sipa.be doesn't even do any transactions
1229 2011-07-07 08:20:55 <sipa> it just monitors the blockchain
1230 2011-07-07 08:21:00 <doublec> out of memory?
1231 2011-07-07 08:21:05 <doublec> I've had that happen
1232 2011-07-07 08:21:10 <sipa> that's possible, it's only a 512MiB VM
1233 2011-07-07 08:21:13 <sipa> eh, VPS
1234 2011-07-07 08:21:16 <doublec> yeah, same
1235 2011-07-07 08:21:22 <sipa> still, i want to know
1236 2011-07-07 08:21:31 <doublec> it'll show in dmesg if that's the case
1237 2011-07-07 08:22:24 <sipa> wow, of course
1238 2011-07-07 08:22:26 em has joined
1239 2011-07-07 08:22:29 <sipa> yes it was OOM indeed
1240 2011-07-07 08:22:47 d1g1t4l has joined
1241 2011-07-07 08:23:14 <doublec> it gets pretty thirsty with memory these days
1242 2011-07-07 08:24:06 spirals_away has joined
1243 2011-07-07 08:24:41 <sipa> i've never had it OOM before (it ran 0.3.21 before)
1244 2011-07-07 08:25:00 <sipa> so i wonder whether it's due to recent changes that memory requirements went up
1245 2011-07-07 08:25:02 <doublec> I wonder if there's something that triggers
1246 2011-07-07 08:25:10 <doublec> I've had it run for days sitting at 200MB of usage
1247 2011-07-07 08:25:15 <doublec> then it balloons to 800MB
1248 2011-07-07 08:25:21 <doublec> and stays there
1249 2011-07-07 08:27:14 <doublec> maybe a large number of connections, or block chain requests
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1254 2011-07-07 08:30:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, limit the number of connections
1255 2011-07-07 08:30:57 <phantomcircuit> each one can use upto 10MB
1256 2011-07-07 08:31:13 <phantomcircuit> 128 * 10 MB = 1280 MB of ram potentially
1257 2011-07-07 08:31:19 <phantomcircuit> + block chain and stuff
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1260 2011-07-07 08:33:25 <TD> justmoon: good morning :)
1261 2011-07-07 08:33:32 <justmoon> hehe :)
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1263 2011-07-07 08:33:48 <TD> justmoon: for the deterministic wallets, are you planning on encoding the creation timestamp into the base58 representation?
1264 2011-07-07 08:34:01 <justmoon> should I?
1265 2011-07-07 08:34:32 <sipa> deterministic wallets = wallet where private keys are derived from a passphrase, or something more fancy?
1266 2011-07-07 08:34:36 em has joined
1267 2011-07-07 08:34:37 <TD> well, if it doesn't have that, you have to redownload/scan the entire blockchain when typing in a master key from a written backup
1268 2011-07-07 08:34:41 <TD> sipa: from a master key
1269 2011-07-07 08:34:53 <justmoon> sipa: where they are derived from a 256 bit random number in my case
1270 2011-07-07 08:35:04 <justmoon> TD: ah, hmm
1271 2011-07-07 08:35:21 <TD> i quite like the written backup idea
1272 2011-07-07 08:35:26 <TD> gotta go
1273 2011-07-07 08:35:27 <TD> meeting
1274 2011-07-07 08:35:30 TD has quit (Client Quit)
1275 2011-07-07 08:35:37 <justmoon> TD: for webcoin it doesn't matter, because the server indexes every address anyway, but it support other...
1276 2011-07-07 08:35:41 <justmoon> and he's gone
1277 2011-07-07 08:35:57 <justmoon> :)
1278 2011-07-07 08:36:22 <justmoon> what I was gonna say is: it should be such that other clients can support the format too
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1280 2011-07-07 08:36:51 <sipa> the 256-bit key is used as seed for a PRNG?
1281 2011-07-07 08:37:28 <justmoon> no we're adding a serial number to it and hashing the result to give a new key
1282 2011-07-07 08:37:43 <doublec> something like? forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137
1283 2011-07-07 08:37:50 <sipa> ok
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1285 2011-07-07 08:38:02 <justmoon> doublec, that's the thread we're talking about yes
1286 2011-07-07 08:38:04 <doublec> oh, justmoon is in that thread :)
1287 2011-07-07 08:38:11 <justmoon> :)
1288 2011-07-07 08:38:13 <doublec> nicks vs names are confusing
1289 2011-07-07 08:38:31 <justmoon> I do have the aka justmoon in my extra info
1290 2011-07-07 08:38:41 <doublec> it's like when I go to a mozilla all hands - everyone knows each others irc nicks, but not their names.
1291 2011-07-07 08:39:22 <sipa> i've had people that i knew irl with their irl name, and on irc with their nick, but not that they were in fact the same person
1292 2011-07-07 08:39:32 <justmoon> sipa: lol same
1293 2011-07-07 08:39:42 <doublec> heh
1294 2011-07-07 08:40:05 em has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1295 2011-07-07 08:40:24 <justmoon> we should all take BlueMatt as an example, he makes it a little easier on everyone with his nickname
1296 2011-07-07 08:40:47 em has joined
1297 2011-07-07 08:40:53 <sipa> hey, the 'i' in my nick also comes from my irl first name!
1298 2011-07-07 08:41:05 <justmoon> lol
1299 2011-07-07 08:41:15 <justmoon> the st in my name comes from stefan
1300 2011-07-07 08:41:21 <justmoon> no.. no, it really doesn't
1301 2011-07-07 08:41:48 <doublec> hehe
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1314 2011-07-07 08:58:56 <enquirer> which server is recommeneded for addAddress = ? block chain isn't downloading
1315 2011-07-07 08:59:03 em has joined
1316 2011-07-07 09:01:13 <doublec> enquirer: try -addnode=206.71.179.116
1317 2011-07-07 09:01:24 <doublec> enquirer: it's running the 0.3.24 rc
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1324 2011-07-07 09:11:32 <doublec> why was the upnp on by default change reverted?
1325 2011-07-07 09:11:37 <enquirer> thanks, blocks are streaming now)
1326 2011-07-07 09:11:53 <sipa> doublec: ?
1327 2011-07-07 09:12:01 <sipa> since 0.3.24 it will be on by default
1328 2011-07-07 09:12:31 <doublec> sipa: post in the bitcoin-dev list says for rc3 it was reverted and enabled for the 'gitian' build
1329 2011-07-07 09:12:35 <doublec> whatever that is
1330 2011-07-07 09:12:55 <sipa> no, a build 'fix' relating to upnp was reverted
1331 2011-07-07 09:13:00 <sipa> *related
1332 2011-07-07 09:13:01 <doublec> ah, ok
1333 2011-07-07 09:13:16 <doublec> I just saw this in the commit list: "Revert "Make UPnP default on Bitcoin but not on Bitcoind."
1334 2011-07-07 09:14:49 <Choko> ø
1335 2011-07-07 09:15:09 <enquirer> but for people behind isp nat it won't help, right?
1336 2011-07-07 09:15:17 <sipa> no it won't
1337 2011-07-07 09:16:19 em has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1338 2011-07-07 09:16:32 <sipa> but those people should demand an internet connection from their isp, instead of a connection to a private network
1339 2011-07-07 09:16:44 <enquirer> and what if i have a good ip6 address, will my bitcoin have connections?
1340 2011-07-07 09:16:56 <sipa> it doesn't support ipv6 (yet)
1341 2011-07-07 09:17:04 <sipa> the protocol does, by the way, just the implementation
1342 2011-07-07 09:17:07 <enquirer> well ip4 addresses are getting scarce you know
1343 2011-07-07 09:17:08 <sipa> + doesn't
1344 2011-07-07 09:17:11 em has joined
1345 2011-07-07 09:17:44 <doublec> I guess ISP NAT is more common on mobile networks
1346 2011-07-07 09:17:55 <doublec> in New Zealand anyway
1347 2011-07-07 09:18:00 datagutt has joined
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1349 2011-07-07 09:18:07 <sipa> i have a public ipv4 address on my phone
1350 2011-07-07 09:18:18 MartianW has joined
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1353 2011-07-07 09:18:24 <doublec> you can get them here too but it's not generally the default iirc
1354 2011-07-07 09:18:28 <sipa> anyway, we definitely need ipv6 support somewhere in the future
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1356 2011-07-07 09:18:47 <enquirer> microsoft just bought 666,666 ip4 addresses ... doesn't it sound evil?
1357 2011-07-07 09:18:51 RenaKunisaki has joined
1358 2011-07-07 09:19:18 <phedny> enquirer: if Microsoft does something it always sounds evil
1359 2011-07-07 09:21:50 em has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1361 2011-07-07 09:22:53 <moa7> "microsoft just bought 666,666 btc" ... does that sound evil?
1362 2011-07-07 09:23:09 em has joined
1363 2011-07-07 09:23:52 <phedny> moa7: would probably cause a lot more people to start buying BTC, so the price will probably go up...
1364 2011-07-07 09:23:56 phantomcircuit is now known as _
1365 2011-07-07 09:24:26 _ is now known as Guest29065
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1370 2011-07-07 09:28:21 <moa7> looks like it was 666,624 ... so a multiple of 256, not so suspicious and seems like it was complete block Nortel had on offer, enough said.
1371 2011-07-07 09:29:11 em has joined
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1374 2011-07-07 09:32:24 <erus`> bitcoin rpc is closing the connection after each responce :(
1375 2011-07-07 09:32:56 <Cryo> buying company carcasses for IPv4 space should not be allowed.  the space should have been returned to ARIN
1376 2011-07-07 09:33:10 <TD> justmoon: sorry, was having a meeting with super-super-boss
1377 2011-07-07 09:33:17 <TD> told him all about bitcoin. he thought it sounded awesome.
1378 2011-07-07 09:33:20 <justmoon> tell larry i said hi :)
1379 2011-07-07 09:33:29 <TD> lol. i'm not that senior unfortunately :-)
1380 2011-07-07 09:33:59 <justmoon> all I said was that for webcoin we don't need timestamp, but if you want compatibilty I'd happy to include it
1381 2011-07-07 09:34:05 <justmoon> be*
1382 2011-07-07 09:34:21 again is now known as tower
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1384 2011-07-07 09:34:31 <sipa> timestamp, block number, block hash, ...?
1385 2011-07-07 09:34:31 <justmoon> it's kind of unclear right now whether it will be just us supporting it or whether everybody will adopt it
1386 2011-07-07 09:34:47 <justmoon> blocknumber is better
1387 2011-07-07 09:34:50 <justmoon> ->shorter, eh?
1388 2011-07-07 09:35:13 <justmoon> uint32_t?
1389 2011-07-07 09:35:19 <sipa> but block numbers can change in the case of reorganisations
1390 2011-07-07 09:35:28 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1391 2011-07-07 09:35:29 <justmoon> hm
1392 2011-07-07 09:35:35 <sipa> do you'd have to wait at least a *bit*
1393 2011-07-07 09:35:39 <justmoon> timestamps aren't really perfect in that case either
1394 2011-07-07 09:35:44 <sipa> indeed
1395 2011-07-07 09:35:48 <justmoon> maybe just a 25 block safety margin?
1396 2011-07-07 09:35:54 <justmoon> or a hundred blocks
1397 2011-07-07 09:35:59 <justmoon> doesn't make much difference
1398 2011-07-07 09:36:06 <sipa> true
1399 2011-07-07 09:36:37 <justmoon> so we have: version byte, block number, 256-bit key and a checksum
1400 2011-07-07 09:36:44 <TD> that'd be good
1401 2011-07-07 09:36:52 <TD> why does webcoin not need it? because the server indexs the whole chain?
1402 2011-07-07 09:37:13 <justmoon> yes, we have an index of standard transactions by address
1403 2011-07-07 09:38:07 <sipa> already used: 0x00 - realnet addresses, 0x80 - realnet privkeys, 0x64 - testnet addresses, 0xEF - testnet privkeys, 0x04 - first byte of pubkeys (not really a version number, but could retroactively be made one)
1404 2011-07-07 09:38:21 <justmoon> sipa: there should probably be a wiki page for that
1405 2011-07-07 09:38:24 <TD> yeah
1406 2011-07-07 09:38:25 <sipa> i agree
1407 2011-07-07 09:38:34 <TD> justmoon: btw, did you see there is now a pretty slick android app?
1408 2011-07-07 09:38:39 <TD> it shows pending transactions, scans qrcodes, etc
1409 2011-07-07 09:38:41 <sipa> TD: i just installed it
1410 2011-07-07 09:38:50 <TD> still lots of work to do. i wouldn't trust it with lots of money yet
1411 2011-07-07 09:38:53 <TD> but it's pretty neat
1412 2011-07-07 09:38:54 <justmoon> TD: I don't have an android phone, so I'll take your word for it
1413 2011-07-07 09:39:06 <justmoon> I've seen the video of it though
1414 2011-07-07 09:39:10 <sipa> how does it connect to the network?
1415 2011-07-07 09:39:14 <TD> there's a video of it ?
1416 2011-07-07 09:39:28 <justmoon> yeah the dev is swedish and did a video
1417 2011-07-07 09:39:46 <justmoon> assuming we're talking about the same app
1418 2011-07-07 09:40:09 <TD> sipa: DNS discovery
1419 2011-07-07 09:40:17 <justmoon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW7Y7eAqBXY&feature=related
1420 2011-07-07 09:40:20 em has joined
1421 2011-07-07 09:40:24 <TD> sipa: when he updates to the latest bitcoinj he'll be using BlueMatts node
1422 2011-07-07 09:40:39 <justmoon> I was viewer number 15 or so, cause bruce sent it over :D
1423 2011-07-07 09:40:40 <TD> justmoon: that's a different one
1424 2011-07-07 09:40:43 <sipa> ok, and it downloads all blocks broadcast?
1425 2011-07-07 09:40:43 <justmoon> ah ok
1426 2011-07-07 09:40:50 <TD> justmoon: bitpay is just a frontend to instawallet :(
1427 2011-07-07 09:41:05 <TD> justmoon: http://market.android.com/details?id=com.bitcoinandroid
1428 2011-07-07 09:41:23 <justmoon> is it full chain, spv or what?
1429 2011-07-07 09:41:25 <TD> SPV
1430 2011-07-07 09:41:27 <TD> bitcoinj
1431 2011-07-07 09:41:30 <justmoon> nice
1432 2011-07-07 09:41:33 <TD> so, it comes with a copy of the block chain headers in the package
1433 2011-07-07 09:41:39 <justmoon> very nice
1434 2011-07-07 09:41:42 <TD> then it just catches up in the background when you first run it
1435 2011-07-07 09:41:48 <TD> if the app is open when a tx is  broadcast, it shows that
1436 2011-07-07 09:42:12 <TD> i don't think it will show transactions broadcast when the app isn't open though. a little server-side helper can do the filtering for that, or maybe it could be added to the core protocol
1437 2011-07-07 09:42:28 datagutt has joined
1438 2011-07-07 09:42:40 <sipa> that's an anonimity issue, possibly
1439 2011-07-07 09:43:00 <justmoon> hm? when you get a transaction and your phone is off, it won't show it you mean?
1440 2011-07-07 09:43:17 <TD> not until it appears in a block
1441 2011-07-07 09:43:28 <TD> i don't think nodes will send you the memory pool when you connect, or was that fixed?
1442 2011-07-07 09:43:33 <justmoon> ah well that's not too bad
1443 2011-07-07 09:43:36 <sipa> they don't
1444 2011-07-07 09:43:44 <TD> so the satoshi client has the same issue
1445 2011-07-07 09:43:51 <justmoon> yes it does
1446 2011-07-07 09:43:54 <TD> if it's not running when a tx is broadcast, you start it, you have to wait for it to appear in a block
1447 2011-07-07 09:43:55 nus- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1448 2011-07-07 09:43:57 <TD> yeah, not a big deal then
1449 2011-07-07 09:44:05 <TD> well .... more of an issue for a phone than a desktop client of course
1450 2011-07-07 09:44:22 <TD> justmoon: so when will i be able to send coins from my nexus to your iphone using this app and webcoin?
1451 2011-07-07 09:44:44 <justmoon> hmm, I'd say a week or two
1452 2011-07-07 09:44:49 <sipa> nice
1453 2011-07-07 09:45:04 <phedny> problem with iPhone is that Apple will probably not allow such an app
1454 2011-07-07 09:45:05 * sipa sends 0.01 BTC to his phone
1455 2011-07-07 09:45:07 <justmoon> I've been spending the last couple of days making bitcoinjs more userfriendly
1456 2011-07-07 09:45:13 <justmoon> added man pages, a command line utility
1457 2011-07-07 09:45:22 <justmoon> command line flag for the log levels etc
1458 2011-07-07 09:45:26 <justmoon> screencast forthcoming :)
1459 2011-07-07 09:45:29 em has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1460 2011-07-07 09:45:34 <TD> phedny: that's why it's a web app
1461 2011-07-07 09:45:34 nus has joined
1462 2011-07-07 09:45:50 <Cryo> so it's not… an app
1463 2011-07-07 09:46:02 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1464 2011-07-07 09:46:03 <justmoon> no, it's a web app
1465 2011-07-07 09:46:10 em has joined
1466 2011-07-07 09:46:16 <justmoon> you can install web apps to your home screen like an app though
1467 2011-07-07 09:46:24 <Cryo> so it's not… an app
1468 2011-07-07 09:46:31 <Cryo> it's a bookmark
1469 2011-07-07 09:46:32 <Cryo>  :)
1470 2011-07-07 09:46:35 <phedny> justmoon: ah, didn't know that :)
1471 2011-07-07 09:46:44 <sipa> btw, while we're talking about base58 encoded stuff
1472 2011-07-07 09:46:45 <phedny> I'm one of those lucky guys that never bought an iPhone :)
1473 2011-07-07 09:46:58 <justmoon> phedny, s/lucky/smart/
1474 2011-07-07 09:47:00 <TD> the iphone stuff will be a web app
1475 2011-07-07 09:47:01 <sipa> the checksum used currently is actually a pretty bad checksum
1476 2011-07-07 09:47:05 <TD> android has a native app
1477 2011-07-07 09:47:11 <TD> which approach ends up being more popular is, i think, an open question
1478 2011-07-07 09:47:24 <sipa> i wonder if we can decide on a better one for future base58-encoded things
1479 2011-07-07 09:47:24 <phedny> the web app can also be used on Android, I'd guess
1480 2011-07-07 09:47:31 <justmoon> I predict on the iphone webapp will be more popular
1481 2011-07-07 09:47:44 <justmoon> at least until apple allows a regular app :P
1482 2011-07-07 09:47:46 <TD> phedny: yeah
1483 2011-07-07 09:47:57 <erus`> can someone try this for me please
1484 2011-07-07 09:47:59 <erus`> https://github.com/tm1rbrt/bitcoinrpc
1485 2011-07-07 09:48:02 <TD> justmoon: your predictive powers are impressive :-)
1486 2011-07-07 09:48:02 <erus`> you need bitcoin
1487 2011-07-07 09:48:12 <Cryo> I don't see why apple wouldn't allow it.  I'd have to reread my dev agreement
1488 2011-07-07 09:48:14 <justmoon> sipa: what is bad about the checksum?
1489 2011-07-07 09:48:16 <erus`> just run the example
1490 2011-07-07 09:48:28 <phedny> anyway.. let's say I want to create a Bitcoin application using Java.. is BitcoinJ the way to go at the moment?
1491 2011-07-07 09:48:46 <sipa> justmoon: you can have rather close collisions
1492 2011-07-07 09:48:47 <justmoon> phedny, most def
1493 2011-07-07 09:48:59 <justmoon> sipa: how so? sha is avalanche?
1494 2011-07-07 09:49:07 <sipa> justmoon: that's the problem
1495 2011-07-07 09:49:26 <justmoon> hmm, and my lack of a CS degree strikes again
1496 2011-07-07 09:49:28 <sipa> a CRC is designed so that no small change will ever result in a valid checksum
1497 2011-07-07 09:49:37 <justmoon> I see
1498 2011-07-07 09:49:38 <sipa> hash functions are designed to be random
1499 2011-07-07 09:49:52 <sipa> the problem is that 58 is no prime number
1500 2011-07-07 09:50:02 * TD has a CS degree and also doesn't understand the issue
1501 2011-07-07 09:50:02 <sipa> otherwise you could design a base58 CRC :)
1502 2011-07-07 09:50:28 <justmoon> TD, diablo called me retarded recently :(
1503 2011-07-07 09:50:38 * justmoon is really hurt by that
1504 2011-07-07 09:50:45 <sipa> is there anyone who hasn't been called that way by Diablo?
1505 2011-07-07 09:50:47 em has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1506 2011-07-07 09:50:58 <justmoon> sipa, hmm so suggestion is what?
1507 2011-07-07 09:51:10 <justmoon> sipa, we shouldn't deviate from base58 should we?
1508 2011-07-07 09:51:14 <justmoon> that would be decoding hell
1509 2011-07-07 09:51:17 <sipa> no not at all
1510 2011-07-07 09:51:21 <sipa> base58 is fine
1511 2011-07-07 09:51:26 <sipa> it's just a bit harder
1512 2011-07-07 09:51:30 <justmoon> kk
1513 2011-07-07 09:51:32 <TD> i'd be kind of surprised if the choice of checksum function makes a difference in practice
1514 2011-07-07 09:51:35 <TD> it's just for typo protection
1515 2011-07-07 09:51:42 <TD> you could use a parity bit and be nearly good enough :-)
1516 2011-07-07 09:52:07 <sipa> if you have a 6-character CRC, you are sure that no change limited to 6 consequtive characters is ever a valid code
1517 2011-07-07 09:52:10 em has joined
1518 2011-07-07 09:52:15 <sipa> currently, you don't have that guarantee
1519 2011-07-07 09:52:30 <TD> talking of checksums
1520 2011-07-07 09:52:37 <TD> i'm thinking of disabling the code that checks message checksums in bitcoinj
1521 2011-07-07 09:52:45 <justmoon> TD: uh?
1522 2011-07-07 09:52:47 <TD> it's showing up in the profiles as a significant timesink
1523 2011-07-07 09:53:01 <justmoon> how  many address are you decoding?!
1524 2011-07-07 09:53:04 <TD> TCP level checksums should be more than good enough
1525 2011-07-07 09:53:06 <justmoon> addresses*
1526 2011-07-07 09:53:06 karnac has joined
1527 2011-07-07 09:53:16 <TD> justmoon: i'm talking about the protocol level checksums here, sorry
1528 2011-07-07 09:53:21 <TD> when sucking bits off the wire
1529 2011-07-07 09:53:22 <justmoon> ah
1530 2011-07-07 09:53:25 <justmoon> gotcha
1531 2011-07-07 09:53:31 <justmoon> hm
1532 2011-07-07 09:53:54 <justmoon> anybody here old enough to remember why satoshi/whoever added them to begin with?
1533 2011-07-07 09:54:03 <justmoon> they didn't use to add features unless there was a problem did they
1534 2011-07-07 09:54:14 <TD> no. the protocol has some questionable things .... i suspect it was a workaround for a bug elsewhere
1535 2011-07-07 09:54:39 <justmoon> TD, AlonzoTG calls the protocol "Bozo the Clown's protocol" - the name is catching on
1536 2011-07-07 09:54:57 <TD> that's a bit harsh
1537 2011-07-07 09:54:59 <justmoon> :P
1538 2011-07-07 09:55:06 <TD> it works fine, after all.
1539 2011-07-07 09:55:12 <TD> i've seen much worse protocols
1540 2011-07-07 09:55:13 <moa7> skunkworks
1541 2011-07-07 09:55:13 <sipa> it's just a custom binary protocol, but it's well defined
1542 2011-07-07 09:55:15 <TD> smtp springs to mind
1543 2011-07-07 09:55:22 <justmoon> so yeah, still disabling checksum still sounds...
1544 2011-07-07 09:55:29 <justmoon> guess if it really makes a difference
1545 2011-07-07 09:55:33 <justmoon> gotta worry about that battery life
1546 2011-07-07 09:56:13 <TD> the blocks are all verified anyway
1547 2011-07-07 09:56:28 <TD> so corruption would be detected later on
1548 2011-07-07 09:56:34 <TD> but network corruption is really rare
1549 2011-07-07 09:56:38 <justmoon> true everything is hashed
1550 2011-07-07 09:56:48 <spq> the protocol is indeed ugly :) those varints and the command string is really unuseful, the order of fields inside transactions etc is also not really helpful, static fields should be at the beginning and such...
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1555 2011-07-07 09:57:10 <TD> why is the order not helpful?
1556 2011-07-07 09:57:40 * justmoon points the high intensity spotlight on spq
1557 2011-07-07 09:57:48 <TD> heh
1558 2011-07-07 09:57:56 * TD is used to dealing with binary protocols
1559 2011-07-07 09:58:10 <TD> every protocol inside google is pure binary. so i guess this sort of thing doesn't come across as surprising
1560 2011-07-07 09:58:14 em has joined
1561 2011-07-07 09:58:30 <justmoon> oh here we go again, why don't you and google get a room!
1562 2011-07-07 09:58:32 <justmoon> :P
1563 2011-07-07 09:58:34 <TD> haha
1564 2011-07-07 09:58:37 <wumpus> I think the uglyness of the protocol is one of the last things to worry about, a better document/specification would be nice though
1565 2011-07-07 09:58:55 <spq> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
1566 2011-07-07 09:59:10 <spq> isnt that enough?
1567 2011-07-07 09:59:15 <sipa> i really have very little problem with those varints
1568 2011-07-07 09:59:23 <spq> i hate them ;)
1569 2011-07-07 09:59:29 sacredchao has joined
1570 2011-07-07 09:59:43 <wumpus> the only thing that is important is whether the protocol is secure/robust, ugly/not ugly doesn't really matter
1571 2011-07-07 09:59:57 <spq> would like to place structs over the pointers when reading the protocol
1572 2011-07-07 10:00:33 <cuddlefish> TD: Construct loves you.
1573 2011-07-07 10:00:43 <TD> construct?
1574 2011-07-07 10:00:53 <cuddlefish> TD: best binary parser EVER>
1575 2011-07-07 10:00:54 <moa7> the monetary and economic "protocol" is not documented ...
1576 2011-07-07 10:01:02 <cuddlefish> I kid you not. it is the BEST PARSER.
1577 2011-07-07 10:01:05 <justmoon> cuddlefish, outside of google you mean
1578 2011-07-07 10:01:31 <cuddlefish> it's written in Python...
1579 2011-07-07 10:01:35 <TD> hmm
1580 2011-07-07 10:01:50 <cuddlefish> but it's worth writing a wrapper for and using in non-python programs
1581 2011-07-07 10:01:53 <cuddlefish> it's THAT GOOD
1582 2011-07-07 10:01:57 <sipa> my transaction doesn't seem to show up on my phone yet :(
1583 2011-07-07 10:02:21 <justmoon> cuddlefish, daym son, you really like that thing
1584 2011-07-07 10:02:37 <justmoon> cuddlefish, link? construct is hard to google
1585 2011-07-07 10:02:47 <cuddlefish> ;;google construct parser
1586 2011-07-07 10:02:48 <gribble> LALR parser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LALR_parser>; LR parser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LR_parser>; Parser (HTML Parser 2.0): <http://htmlparser.sourceforge.net/javadoc/org/htmlparser/Parser.html>
1587 2011-07-07 10:02:49 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1588 2011-07-07 10:02:51 <TD> sipa: that's odd. it showed up immediately for me
1589 2011-07-07 10:02:54 <cuddlefish> ;;google construct python parser
1590 2011-07-07 10:02:55 <gribble> Construct (python library) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_(python_library)>; 31.1. parser — Access Python parse trees — Python v2.7.2 documentation: <http://docs.python.org/library/parser.html>; Ned Batchelder: Python parsing tools: <http://nedbatchelder.com/text/python-parsers.html>
1591 2011-07-07 10:03:02 <sipa> TD: maybe it wasn't synced yet
1592 2011-07-07 10:03:02 <OneFixt> http://construct.wikispaces.com/
1593 2011-07-07 10:03:07 <justmoon> nm got it
1594 2011-07-07 10:03:08 <cuddlefish> OneFixt: yeah, that one
1595 2011-07-07 10:03:09 <justmoon> http://construct.wikispaces.com/
1596 2011-07-07 10:03:14 <TD> sipa: oh, could be. it should appear with the next block i guess
1597 2011-07-07 10:03:17 em has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1598 2011-07-07 10:03:35 <justmoon> cuddlefish, so what makes it good?
1599 2011-07-07 10:04:19 <sipa> it's not in a block, it seems
1600 2011-07-07 10:04:19 em has joined
1601 2011-07-07 10:04:21 <sipa> so i'll wait :)
1602 2011-07-07 10:04:34 <cuddlefish> justmoon: Struct("block", UBInt64("timestamp"), String("merkleroot", 256)...
1603 2011-07-07 10:04:37 <sipa> cool, it arrived
1604 2011-07-07 10:04:50 <sipa> "received from: <address>" -> bah!
1605 2011-07-07 10:04:51 <cuddlefish> justmoon: then, that parses and/or builds a Bitcoin block (well, if you finish the spec)
1606 2011-07-07 10:05:26 <TD> sipa: hehe, yeah
1607 2011-07-07 10:05:30 <TD> sipa: that needs to be fixed.
1608 2011-07-07 10:07:01 <justmoon> cuddlefish, sounds good, how does it compare to protocol buffers?
1609 2011-07-07 10:07:07 <justmoon> http://code.google.com/apis/protocolbuffers/docs/overview.html
1610 2011-07-07 10:07:46 TheAncientGoat has joined
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1612 2011-07-07 10:07:59 <justmoon> seems like those give you similar declarative power plus they're language agnostic, which is nothing to frown upon ;)
1613 2011-07-07 10:09:01 em has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1615 2011-07-07 10:10:18 <cuddlefish> justmoon: but they're squishy
1616 2011-07-07 10:10:20 em has joined
1617 2011-07-07 10:10:30 <sipa> TD, justmoon: regarding version bytes in addresses
1618 2011-07-07 10:10:32 <cuddlefish> you can't turn the bitcoin protocol into a protobuffer.
1619 2011-07-07 10:10:38 <sipa> i find it unfortunate that testnet uses 111
1620 2011-07-07 10:10:41 <justmoon> cuddlefish, how come?
1621 2011-07-07 10:10:44 huk has quit ()
1622 2011-07-07 10:10:46 <cuddlefish> you'd havve to write it as that from the beginning.
1623 2011-07-07 10:10:48 <TD> yeah
1624 2011-07-07 10:10:51 <sipa> otherwise we could strip of some high bits to use as flags
1625 2011-07-07 10:10:54 <cuddlefish> justmoon: there's no specifications for sizes, etc
1626 2011-07-07 10:10:55 <TD> protobufs have a specified binary format
1627 2011-07-07 10:11:11 <TD> sipa: that's true. i guess changing the testnet format isn't a killer deal
1628 2011-07-07 10:11:16 <TD> sipa: or maybe it is, i don't know
1629 2011-07-07 10:11:20 <sipa> TD: not sure
1630 2011-07-07 10:11:30 <sipa> however, in fact we still can, it's just a bit of a hack
1631 2011-07-07 10:11:49 <sipa> as long as all flags used are linearly independent bit combinations
1632 2011-07-07 10:12:51 <cuddlefish> TD: okay, then. implement this for me: field X must be a CRC32 checksum of field Y, if field Y is present
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1641 2011-07-07 10:15:08 <justmoon> cuddlefish, I suppose it's neat if a parser can do that - there is also an argument to do stuff like that in application logic though
1642 2011-07-07 10:15:43 <justmoon> sipa: do you have something in mind to use the flags for?
1643 2011-07-07 10:15:58 <justmoon> sipa: not really sure how much we should encode in the address
1644 2011-07-07 10:16:28 em has joined
1645 2011-07-07 10:16:47 <justmoon> sipa, obviously reserving stuff for later use never hurts
1646 2011-07-07 10:17:12 sgornick has joined
1647 2011-07-07 10:17:37 <sipa> justmoon: well, the way i see it we have currently two flags: 128=privatekey, 111=testnet (using my self-defined format for private keys, that is)
1648 2011-07-07 10:17:55 <sipa> technically, it not necessary that private keys and addresses collide, but i prefer them not to
1649 2011-07-07 10:18:18 <justmoon> yeah I'm with you there
1650 2011-07-07 10:18:28 <justmoon> people will manage to mix them up
1651 2011-07-07 10:18:47 <sipa> now, if we skip flag 64, everything is fine
1652 2011-07-07 10:18:50 <wumpus> so testnet private key would be 128+111 ? 
1653 2011-07-07 10:18:54 <sipa> wumpus: exactly
1654 2011-07-07 10:19:16 <sipa> and a version-2 address for testnet would be 2 XOR 111 = 109
1655 2011-07-07 10:19:26 <sipa> if something like that is ever defined
1656 2011-07-07 10:19:56 <sipa> justmoon: eg, you could use flag 32 for "master key"
1657 2011-07-07 10:20:09 <wumpus> whoa, ok
1658 2011-07-07 10:20:24 jav__ has joined
1659 2011-07-07 10:20:31 <sipa> leaving the 128+32 combination open for some other class of data, maybe pubkeys
1660 2011-07-07 10:20:35 <wumpus> that goes from trivial to scary in one go :)
1661 2011-07-07 10:20:54 <justmoon> sipa: master key doesn't need a flag per se, a value will do
1662 2011-07-07 10:21:00 <justmoon> i.e. it doesn't need it's own bit
1663 2011-07-07 10:21:07 em has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1664 2011-07-07 10:21:19 <sipa> well, i guess there are three parts in the version byte then
1665 2011-07-07 10:21:55 <wumpus> so for testnet, xor the whole thing with 111 (toggle bits 0,1,2,3,5 and 6)
1666 2011-07-07 10:22:03 <sipa> first, a data class, which is (currently) 0, 32, 128 or 160
1667 2011-07-07 10:22:23 <sipa> secondly, a network flag, which is 0 (realnet) or 111 (testnet)
1668 2011-07-07 10:22:24 <justmoon> wumpus, our children will hate us for the 111 testnet thing ^^
1669 2011-07-07 10:22:32 <wumpus> justmoon: I'm sure of that
1670 2011-07-07 10:22:32 em has joined
1671 2011-07-07 10:22:33 <sipa> third, a version number, something between 0 and 31
1672 2011-07-07 10:22:42 <sipa> and then just xor the three things together
1673 2011-07-07 10:22:49 <justmoon> sipa awesome :D
1674 2011-07-07 10:23:02 <sipa> maybe reserve 16 for future data classes, still
1675 2011-07-07 10:23:02 <wumpus> nah cryptologists love these kinds of puzzle games,don't they? :)
1676 2011-07-07 10:23:25 <justmoon> wumpus, hehe
1677 2011-07-07 10:23:54 <justmoon> do we need anything special for future hardware security devices? for verifiable name->address mappings?
1678 2011-07-07 10:23:58 <justmoon> no i think?
1679 2011-07-07 10:24:17 <sipa> to decode, you would first see whether (x AND 64) is nonzero, if so, XOR with 111 and mark fTestNet true - otherwise nothing
1680 2011-07-07 10:24:36 <sipa> then check (x AND 176) to find the data class, and (x AND 15) for version number
1681 2011-07-07 10:25:05 <justmoon> sipa, that's actually not too bad
1682 2011-07-07 10:25:21 <sipa> except the 111 thing would be so much nicer if it were 128 or 64
1683 2011-07-07 10:25:30 <wumpus> yes
1684 2011-07-07 10:25:41 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1685 2011-07-07 10:25:41 <justmoon> sipa: we could reset testnet and just change it
1686 2011-07-07 10:25:45 <sipa> what does namecoin use?
1687 2011-07-07 10:25:45 <wumpus> so let's kill the testnet again, why cares
1688 2011-07-07 10:25:45 <justmoon> just saying
1689 2011-07-07 10:25:46 <wumpus> indeed
1690 2011-07-07 10:27:12 em has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1691 2011-07-07 10:27:57 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1692 2011-07-07 10:29:16 <justmoon> sipa: namecoin uses decimal 52, which is...
1693 2011-07-07 10:29:27 <justmoon> 34 hex
1694 2011-07-07 10:29:51 <justmoon> 00110100 binary
1695 2011-07-07 10:30:09 <sipa> great
1696 2011-07-07 10:30:25 <justmoon> (unless they totally changed the format, I just decoded a namecoin address and looked at the first byte)
1697 2011-07-07 10:30:35 <sipa> no it's right, 52 decimal
1698 2011-07-07 10:30:53 <sipa> well, you could use the same trick
1699 2011-07-07 10:31:52 <sipa> not that i care much about namecoin
1700 2011-07-07 10:31:55 <justmoon> and people wonder how microsoft comes up with their awesome standards :D
1701 2011-07-07 10:32:10 <sipa> but maybe some way to mark addresses as "private network" is useful
1702 2011-07-07 10:32:38 chuck has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1703 2011-07-07 10:32:41 <justmoon> there is another consideration - the 1 at the beginning of an address has almost become like a brand
1704 2011-07-07 10:32:47 <JFK911> include a UUID for the Live Bitcoin Network and a UUID for the node
1705 2011-07-07 10:33:12 BCBot has joined
1706 2011-07-07 10:33:15 <justmoon> JFK911, hm? in the address? o_O
1707 2011-07-07 10:33:42 <wumpus> lol JFK911
1708 2011-07-07 10:33:43 workbench has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1709 2011-07-07 10:33:55 <wumpus> JFK911: and encode it in  xml, then zip it, then represent it as base58
1710 2011-07-07 10:34:31 <sipa> so: bits (128,16,8) define data class, bits (111,91) define network, bits (1,2,4) define version?
1711 2011-07-07 10:34:35 <JFK911> well a UUID i think provides enough resolution for any future application
1712 2011-07-07 10:34:37 <wumpus> that'd be the one microsoft way :-)
1713 2011-07-07 10:34:52 Workbench has joined
1714 2011-07-07 10:35:01 <justmoon> JFK911, yeah, but we don't have a lot of bytes in the address, otherwise it'll get too long
1715 2011-07-07 10:35:17 <justmoon> I mean it's not like anybody would type an address by hand
1716 2011-07-07 10:35:22 <JFK911> why the limit on address size?  nobody will type them in
1717 2011-07-07 10:35:28 <justmoon> but it should still be, you know - manageable
1718 2011-07-07 10:35:31 <JFK911> they are all copypasted or possibly scanned from barcodes
1719 2011-07-07 10:35:43 <wumpus> I think the addresses are long enough
1720 2011-07-07 10:35:48 <justmoon> like not be linewrapped if you write in an email "My bitcoin addres: ...."
1721 2011-07-07 10:35:50 chuck has joined
1722 2011-07-07 10:35:50 <JFK911> i think there is a crc or something in bitcoin addresses now.  don't remove that!
1723 2011-07-07 10:35:51 <sipa> maybe we could even state that bit 4 means "extended", meaning there follows another version byte
1724 2011-07-07 10:36:07 <sipa> bah
1725 2011-07-07 10:36:20 <wumpus> sipa: why not use the upper bit for that, then put the flags in another byte :-)
1726 2011-07-07 10:36:37 <sipa> that'd mean changing the private key format, which is already used in some places
1727 2011-07-07 10:36:50 <wumpus> or do something like unicode 'read as long as the upper bit is set' 
1728 2011-07-07 10:36:54 <wumpus> hehe
1729 2011-07-07 10:37:08 <wumpus> ah right
1730 2011-07-07 10:37:37 <justmoon> wumpus, that's another thing, should we reserve something that will someday tell the client: this is a two byte version
1731 2011-07-07 10:38:08 <Zoiah> joepie91: http://www.pastie.org/2173213
1732 2011-07-07 10:38:09 <wumpus> exactly, because one extra byte might not be enough forever
1733 2011-07-07 10:38:46 em has joined
1734 2011-07-07 10:39:12 <sipa> bits (128,16,8) define the data class - these are defined: 0=address, 128=private key, 152=data class described in next byte
1735 2011-07-07 10:39:44 <sipa> bits (111,91) define the network - these are defined: 0=realnet bitcoin, 111=testnet bitcoin, 52=private network
1736 2011-07-07 10:40:31 <sipa> bits (1,2,4) define the version - these are defined: 0=currently only one, 7=another version byte follows
1737 2011-07-07 10:40:50 <justmoon> sipa: did you see our suggestion to just drop 111 for testnet, reset testnet and use something cleaner?
1738 2011-07-07 10:41:14 <sipa> that still leaves you with the namecoin problem
1739 2011-07-07 10:41:51 <sipa> to do it really clean, would be (128,64)=network, (32,16,8)=data class, (4,2,1)=version
1740 2011-07-07 10:42:13 <sipa> but that means invalidating testnet, namecoin and private keys
1741 2011-07-07 10:42:14 <justmoon> hmm, there will be plenty more applications - can we get a range of exact values that includes 52 that is reserved for private networks?
1742 2011-07-07 10:42:26 <justmoon> like 32-63 or something?
1743 2011-07-07 10:42:36 <sipa> it's just a single value
1744 2011-07-07 10:43:00 <justmoon> no I mean if bit 32 has no other meaning it could mean "private network"
1745 2011-07-07 10:43:08 <justmoon> then 52 would just one value from that range
1746 2011-07-07 10:43:13 <justmoon> just be*
1747 2011-07-07 10:43:28 <sipa> right, but what about other data classes in the network?
1748 2011-07-07 10:43:31 BlueMatt has joined
1749 2011-07-07 10:43:37 <justmoon> data classes?
1750 2011-07-07 10:43:45 <sipa> private keys, master keys, address
1751 2011-07-07 10:43:49 <sipa> for other networks
1752 2011-07-07 10:44:06 <justmoon> you don't need a whole bit for all of those
1753 2011-07-07 10:44:14 <sipa> how so?
1754 2011-07-07 10:44:27 <justmoon> well a master key can't also be an address or a private key
1755 2011-07-07 10:44:34 <sipa> of course not
1756 2011-07-07 10:45:09 <sipa> (32,16,8) define the data class, so there are 8 possible data classes; from those 8, there are currently 3 defined
1757 2011-07-07 10:45:21 <sipa> (the third one being "extended", another byte follows)
1758 2011-07-07 10:45:36 <sipa> maybe we have enough with 2 bits for data classes
1759 2011-07-07 10:45:46 <justmoon> yeah hang on
1760 2011-07-07 10:46:13 <justmoon> if 32 and 16 are set it's not a data class, then it's a private network
1761 2011-07-07 10:46:24 <justmoon> that would cover namecoin
1762 2011-07-07 10:46:47 <sipa> ok, and when it's a private network, version and data class lose their meaning
1763 2011-07-07 10:46:52 <justmoon> and that's the first thing we check, so the other bits can be whatever they want
1764 2011-07-07 10:46:53 <justmoon> exactly
1765 2011-07-07 10:47:19 <MrSam> luke-jr: ?
1766 2011-07-07 10:48:04 Superbest has joined
1767 2011-07-07 10:49:14 <sipa> justmoon: ok, good: if bit 32 is set, this is a private network, and no further bits are defined; if not, check whether bit 64 is net - if so: testnet, otherwise: realnet
1768 2011-07-07 10:49:27 <sipa> if it is testnet, XOR with 111
1769 2011-07-07 10:49:42 <justmoon> -_- just. reset. testnet.
1770 2011-07-07 10:49:49 <justmoon> but ok whatever
1771 2011-07-07 10:49:50 <sipa> ?
1772 2011-07-07 10:50:00 <justmoon> just reset it, change it's version to 48
1773 2011-07-07 10:50:04 <justmoon> decimal
1774 2011-07-07 10:50:24 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1775 2011-07-07 10:50:28 <sipa> no, you'd change it to 128, i guess
1776 2011-07-07 10:50:54 <justmoon> hmm yeah, for testnet it makes sense to have a whole bit
1777 2011-07-07 10:51:03 <justmoon> cause all apps will have their own testnet
1778 2011-07-07 10:51:08 <sipa> indeed
1779 2011-07-07 10:51:17 <justmoon> and testnet will have all those private keys and all that stuff
1780 2011-07-07 10:51:21 <sipa> but that's not so much better than using 128
1781 2011-07-07 10:51:22 <sipa> eh 111
1782 2011-07-07 10:51:26 <justmoon> sorry if I'm a bit slow I've been up for 22 hours :)
1783 2011-07-07 10:51:44 <justmoon> and I've got the commit to prove it!
1784 2011-07-07 10:51:47 <justmoon> commits*
1785 2011-07-07 10:52:07 <justmoon> sipa, it is better if you're not xoring stuff
1786 2011-07-07 10:52:37 <sipa> agree
1787 2011-07-07 10:52:39 <justmoon> plus downwards compatibilty is no concern whatsoever, it's testnet, it's garbage, we reset it all the time
1788 2011-07-07 10:52:49 <sipa> but data class would still be 64,16,18
1789 2011-07-07 10:52:52 <moa7> might want to just double check that namecoin 52
1790 2011-07-07 10:52:53 <sipa> eh, 64,16,8
1791 2011-07-07 10:52:57 <sipa> moa7: i did
1792 2011-07-07 10:53:08 <justmoon> moa7, why do you say that?
1793 2011-07-07 10:53:16 <moa7> it changed early on
1794 2011-07-07 10:53:26 <sipa> well i'm sending a mail to the dev list
1795 2011-07-07 10:53:37 <justmoon> sipa: k
1796 2011-07-07 10:53:46 <justmoon> thx :)
1797 2011-07-07 10:54:00 <sipa> OR
1798 2011-07-07 10:54:06 <sipa> oh, nvm
1799 2011-07-07 10:54:13 <justmoon> lol
1800 2011-07-07 10:54:23 <justmoon> I was so excited when you said OR :)
1801 2011-07-07 10:54:23 <BlueMatt> what are you guys on about?
1802 2011-07-07 10:54:32 <justmoon> BlueMatt, address version byte
1803 2011-07-07 10:54:38 <justmoon> sipa is doing his magic :)
1804 2011-07-07 10:54:57 <sipa> justmoon: i hoped to use bit 1 for private network
1805 2011-07-07 10:55:04 <sipa> but namecoin's version byte is even :(
1806 2011-07-07 10:55:06 talso has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1807 2011-07-07 10:55:13 <BlueMatt> private bitcoin net?
1808 2011-07-07 10:55:21 <justmoon> BlueMatt, as in custom apps
1809 2011-07-07 10:55:25 <justmoon> like namecoin
1810 2011-07-07 10:55:30 <moa7> they want to reset namecoin
1811 2011-07-07 10:55:32 <moa7> :)
1812 2011-07-07 10:55:38 <justmoon> moa7 don't spread fud
1813 2011-07-07 10:55:46 <joepie91> Zoiah: aware, they are trying to mediawhore with the same old dox that have been published at least 4 times before
1814 2011-07-07 10:55:49 <moa7> just kidding
1815 2011-07-07 10:55:54 <joepie91> and sadly the media is biting
1816 2011-07-07 10:57:31 <Zoiah> Nom, nom, nom.
1817 2011-07-07 10:57:41 <wumpus> the media is never sick of drama
1818 2011-07-07 10:57:53 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1820 2011-07-07 10:58:19 <Cryo> media fail is fail.
1821 2011-07-07 10:58:43 <Cryo> reading the 'leaked' chat logs is amusing though.
1822 2011-07-07 10:58:53 <Cryo> what is this, 1992 again?
1823 2011-07-07 10:59:04 <joepie91> lol
1824 2011-07-07 10:59:06 <wumpus> seems so
1825 2011-07-07 10:59:10 <joepie91> I loved how the Guardian claimed to expose leaked logs
1826 2011-07-07 10:59:12 <joepie91> exclusively
1827 2011-07-07 10:59:17 <joepie91> while those logs had been on pastebin for 3 weeks
1828 2011-07-07 10:59:22 <joepie91> and read by half the internet already
1829 2011-07-07 10:59:23 <Cryo> exclusively on your nutz
1830 2011-07-07 10:59:38 <joepie91> also, I've found that all articles starting with 'Inside...' are crap
1831 2011-07-07 10:59:38 <Cryo> sabu is right about social engineering though
1832 2011-07-07 10:59:45 <joepie91> regardless of who publishes them
1833 2011-07-07 10:59:51 <wumpus> just like the 'leaked' insider bitcoin dev logs, which are simply of this channel, logs can be publicly found but why cares :-)
1834 2011-07-07 10:59:52 <sipa> justmoon: what about using bit 1 for testnet
1835 2011-07-07 10:59:54 <joepie91> and, which part?
1836 2011-07-07 11:00:05 <Cryo> even bitcoin is vulnerable
1837 2011-07-07 11:00:07 <justmoon> sipa: that would be cool
1838 2011-07-07 11:00:28 <sipa> justmoon: meaning: bits 128 and 64 become data class, bit 32 becomes private, bits 16,8,4,2 become version, bit 1 becomes testnet
1839 2011-07-07 11:00:29 Infraworst has joined
1840 2011-07-07 11:00:36 <justmoon> sipa: odd = I'm testing, even = LIVE MODE ENGAGED!
1841 2011-07-07 11:01:08 Evious has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1842 2011-07-07 11:01:11 <justmoon> hmm two bits for data class
1843 2011-07-07 11:01:16 <justmoon> three for version
1844 2011-07-07 11:01:21 <justmoon> sorry four for version
1845 2011-07-07 11:01:43 <justmoon> right now we've certainly needed more classes than versions
1846 2011-07-07 11:02:04 <sipa> agree
1847 2011-07-07 11:02:05 <sipa> ok
1848 2011-07-07 11:02:22 <justmoon> I'm not saying, I'm just saying :)
1849 2011-07-07 11:02:33 <sipa> (128,64,32) = data class, (16)=private, (8,4,2)=version, (1)=testnet
1850 2011-07-07 11:02:56 <sipa> with a nice 3/1 split of bits per nibble!
1851 2011-07-07 11:03:27 <justmoon> sipa: sexy.
1852 2011-07-07 11:03:33 danbri has joined
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1854 2011-07-07 11:04:15 <justmoon> namecoin fags better be grateful for all the effort we put into this :)
1855 2011-07-07 11:04:21 <justmoon> j/k
1856 2011-07-07 11:04:27 <moa7> looks good.
1857 2011-07-07 11:05:50 <Cryo> namecoin? feh.  it's bitcoin 2.0 that you should be worried about
1858 2011-07-07 11:05:58 <Cryo> the thing that comes after this
1859 2011-07-07 11:06:06 <Cryo> so make versioning simple
1860 2011-07-07 11:06:22 <cuddlefish> Hey guys, I'm working on an alternative cryptocurrency completely incompatible with Bitcoin
1861 2011-07-07 11:06:48 <justmoon> cryo, with three version bits we're covered all the way up to bitcoin 7.0 :)
1862 2011-07-07 11:06:48 <cuddlefish> so don't worry :P
1863 2011-07-07 11:06:59 <cuddlefish> satoshi sucks at protocol design
1864 2011-07-07 11:07:29 <wumpus> cuddlefishcoin, the next generation
1865 2011-07-07 11:07:34 <Cryo> as long as you can convert back and forth...
1866 2011-07-07 11:07:34 <justmoon> cuddlefish, make sure you change the transaction format and the rpc api, you don't want to have some accidental compatibility there
1867 2011-07-07 11:07:38 <Cryo> without losing data
1868 2011-07-07 11:07:49 <justmoon> cuddlefish, also use different base encoding and reverse the endian on everything
1869 2011-07-07 11:07:53 <Cryo> (with unicorn tears and stem cells)
1870 2011-07-07 11:07:55 <moa7> bitcoin7.0 releases year 2980
1871 2011-07-07 11:08:18 <Cryo> it's the endian issue that's sad to me
1872 2011-07-07 11:08:24 <Cryo> those poor endians
1873 2011-07-07 11:08:39 <justmoon> cuddlefish, actually, also invert all bits
1874 2011-07-07 11:08:39 <Cryo> the Trail of Bits
1875 2011-07-07 11:08:40 <wumpus> in the year 2980... if mankind is still alive...
1876 2011-07-07 11:08:43 <cuddlefish> Cryo: yeah, we're all network-byte-ordered here
1877 2011-07-07 11:08:58 <justmoon> cuddlefish, and make sure you define a custom version of sha256
1878 2011-07-07 11:09:01 <Cryo> wumpus, your age is showing again.
1879 2011-07-07 11:09:04 <cuddlefish> justmoon: Well, Carrot should be able to last indefinitely.
1880 2011-07-07 11:09:12 <Cryo> especially if you had that on a 45.
1881 2011-07-07 11:09:33 <cuddlefish> justmoon: If ECDSA is broken, the Lamport escape pods will allow users to prove ownership of an address
1882 2011-07-07 11:09:39 <wumpus> Cryo: hey I'm not that old, I just like the song :-)
1883 2011-07-07 11:09:50 <justmoon> cuddlefish, cool stuff, is that on the way?
1884 2011-07-07 11:09:55 <cuddlefish> justmoon: yeah
1885 2011-07-07 11:10:09 <justmoon> cuddlefish, awesome, that needs to be in webcoin asap
1886 2011-07-07 11:10:20 <cuddlefish> webcoin?
1887 2011-07-07 11:10:32 <justmoon> google webcoin screencast
1888 2011-07-07 11:10:39 <cuddlefish> ah
1889 2011-07-07 11:10:49 <Akinava> Pls help, how make hesh? To verify the signature.
1890 2011-07-07 11:10:50 <justmoon> no disaster that happens to bitcoin matters if we can make sure that everyone comes out with their coins intact
1891 2011-07-07 11:10:56 <Cryo> GOOGLECOIN
1892 2011-07-07 11:11:06 <moa7> gigglecoin?
1893 2011-07-07 11:11:10 <Cryo> coin+
1894 2011-07-07 11:11:27 <wumpus> justmoon: yes, we can't have people with broken coins
1895 2011-07-07 11:11:31 <Akinava> hash256(hash_tx_out+'01000000')?
1896 2011-07-07 11:11:48 <sipa> justmoon: so, you want data class 32 for master keys?
1897 2011-07-07 11:11:53 <Cryo> magic numbers suck
1898 2011-07-07 11:12:01 <justmoon> sipa: cool
1899 2011-07-07 11:12:36 Diablo-D3 has joined
1900 2011-07-07 11:12:38 <justmoon> so 00100000 for live master key and 00100001 for test master key
1901 2011-07-07 11:12:47 <sipa> or rather 160 or 192, and leave 32 for something more basic, like public keys
1902 2011-07-07 11:12:56 <justmoon> probably a good idea
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1908 2011-07-07 11:15:14 <justmoon> cuddlefish, is there any place I can keep up with lamport progress
1909 2011-07-07 11:15:43 <justmoon> cuddlefish, with webcoin people will be printing a paper hardcopy of their master key - is there are way I can have an escape on that hardcopy?
1910 2011-07-07 11:15:48 <justmoon> escape pod*
1911 2011-07-07 11:16:01 <cuddlefish> justmoon: lamport signatures are basically the Complete Idiot's Signature Scheme
1912 2011-07-07 11:16:09 <cuddlefish> but they work great as escape pods
1913 2011-07-07 11:16:16 Nexus7 has quit (Client Quit)
1914 2011-07-07 11:16:23 <cuddlefish> you pick a hash algorithm
1915 2011-07-07 11:16:36 <justmoon> cuddlefish, they require a challenge, don't they?
1916 2011-07-07 11:16:39 <cuddlefish> no.
1917 2011-07-07 11:16:51 <cuddlefish> you pick a hash algorithm with N bits of output
1918 2011-07-07 11:16:56 <cuddlefish> I use ripemd160
1919 2011-07-07 11:17:01 <justmoon> ok
1920 2011-07-07 11:17:16 <cuddlefish> to create your public key
1921 2011-07-07 11:17:20 <cuddlefish> *private key
1922 2011-07-07 11:17:36 <cuddlefish> you generate 160 pairs of (random data, other random data)
1923 2011-07-07 11:18:02 <cuddlefish> each random data should be a decent length, and independent.
1924 2011-07-07 11:18:21 <cuddlefish> you can use a PRNG, and seed it, if you don't want to store all that data.
1925 2011-07-07 11:18:50 <cuddlefish> To create your public key, you generate 160 pairs of (hash of private key part 1, hash of private key part 2)
1926 2011-07-07 11:19:11 <cuddlefish> to shorten this, we put those hashes in a Merkle tree.
1927 2011-07-07 11:19:42 <cuddlefish> So, your public key is a 160-bit hash
1928 2011-07-07 11:19:51 <cuddlefish> your private key is 320 pieces of random data.
1929 2011-07-07 11:20:02 <cuddlefish> To sign a message, you hash that message
1930 2011-07-07 11:20:48 <cuddlefish> Then, for each bit in the message: if it's a zero, release the first piece of your first "private keypair"
1931 2011-07-07 11:21:00 <cuddlefish> if it's a one, release the second piece of your first "private keypair"
1932 2011-07-07 11:21:13 <cuddlefish> so, lamport keys are one-use
1933 2011-07-07 11:21:45 <cuddlefish> but they are QC-resistant
1934 2011-07-07 11:22:29 <justmoon> cuddlefish, ok, got it
1935 2011-07-07 11:22:44 <cuddlefish> the signatures are BIG
1936 2011-07-07 11:22:57 <cuddlefish> so they can only be used as an escape pod
1937 2011-07-07 11:23:08 mmoya has joined
1938 2011-07-07 11:23:24 <sipa> voila, mail sent to the list
1939 2011-07-07 11:23:30 <sipa> justmoon: you're on the dev list, right?
1940 2011-07-07 11:23:43 <justmoon> so I'd use the public key of the lamport as the master private key for bitcoin - when shit goes south I can prove that I was the real owner of the master key
1941 2011-07-07 11:23:49 <justmoon> sipa: yep
1942 2011-07-07 11:23:57 <cuddlefish> justmoon: sort of
1943 2011-07-07 11:24:02 slux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1944 2011-07-07 11:24:17 <justmoon> cuddlefish, sort of?
1945 2011-07-07 11:24:23 <cuddlefish> Address: hash of version byte + ECDSA pubkey + Lamport pubkey + checksum
1946 2011-07-07 11:24:47 <cuddlefish> so you prove you own an address not a pubkey
1947 2011-07-07 11:24:53 somuchwin2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1948 2011-07-07 11:25:03 <justmoon> cuddlefish, oh yeah you misunderstood me
1949 2011-07-07 11:25:16 <sturles> I used to have a disk bottleneck with bitcoin on my Asus EEE 901 with one of those first generation SSDs.  A couple of days ago I upgraded the filesystem to btrfs, and the bottleneck is completely gone!  From two minutes of disk activity per block to a few seconds CPU bound.  A tip to other users with similar problems: convert to btrfs
1950 2011-07-07 11:25:18 somuchwin has joined
1951 2011-07-07 11:25:27 <TD> justmoon: this algorithm is described on wikipedia
1952 2011-07-07 11:25:33 <justmoon> I was gonna do a 256-bit lamport and use that as the master key for a deterministic wallet, then generate unlimited amounts of addresses from that
1953 2011-07-07 11:25:33 <TD> justmoon: it's digital signatures that only uses hashes
1954 2011-07-07 11:25:47 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1955 2011-07-07 11:25:48 <justmoon> TD: cuddlefish explained it better than wikipedia ever could ;)
1956 2011-07-07 11:25:49 <sturles> Writing to this SSD is terribly slow, but btrfs writes more cleverly.
1957 2011-07-07 11:25:50 <Diablo-D3> sturles: btrfs handles shit a little better
1958 2011-07-07 11:25:55 <TD> cool
1959 2011-07-07 11:26:02 slux has joined
1960 2011-07-07 11:26:12 <BlueMatt> justmoon: oh you are doing deterministic wallets...yuck
1961 2011-07-07 11:26:14 <Diablo-D3> sturles: you can get the same behavior out of ext3/4 but its trickey
1962 2011-07-07 11:26:22 <justmoon> BlueMatt, yuck?
1963 2011-07-07 11:27:03 <BlueMatt> justmoon: easier to steal wallets, etc, etc
1964 2011-07-07 11:27:09 <justmoon> BlueMatt, what? why?
1965 2011-07-07 11:27:16 * TD is planning on implementing them too
1966 2011-07-07 11:27:16 <BlueMatt> also, how many addresses can you generate from 256-bits of seed?
1967 2011-07-07 11:27:25 <justmoon> BlueMatt, are you thinking of the password based stuff maybe? we're way past that
1968 2011-07-07 11:27:31 <BlueMatt> no
1969 2011-07-07 11:27:35 <justmoon> BlueMatt, infinite amounts
1970 2011-07-07 11:27:43 <BlueMatt> uh...no
1971 2011-07-07 11:27:48 jivvz has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1972 2011-07-07 11:27:53 <BlueMatt> there is always a limit based on the algo you use
1973 2011-07-07 11:27:58 <TD> the current scheme has the problem that the backup rules are easy to forget and hard to understand
1974 2011-07-07 11:28:01 <sipa> it just means it's a 256-bit security for an entire wallet
1975 2011-07-07 11:28:03 <TD> and not documented anywhere users would see it, obviously
1976 2011-07-07 11:28:12 <sipa> instead of 160-bit security per address
1977 2011-07-07 11:28:15 <justmoon> entropy is entropy, as long as you cannot correlate addresses
1978 2011-07-07 11:28:26 <cuddlefish> justmoon: seedable PRNGs repeat.
1979 2011-07-07 11:28:31 <BlueMatt> entropy is entropy but there is a limit
1980 2011-07-07 11:28:41 <sipa> entropy is a measure of information
1981 2011-07-07 11:28:48 <sipa> with 256 bits there are 256 bits to crack
1982 2011-07-07 11:28:59 <sipa> and in this case, 256 bits to crack for an entire wallet
1983 2011-07-07 11:29:11 <justmoon> cuddlefish, we're using a serial number not a PRNG - we don't need random numbers, just different numbers
1984 2011-07-07 11:29:19 <cuddlefish> justmoon: ah
1985 2011-07-07 11:29:32 <justmoon> here is the post: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.msg318989#msg318989
1986 2011-07-07 11:29:32 <sipa> justmoon: which is, in effect, just a cryptographically secure PRNG
1987 2011-07-07 11:29:35 <BlueMatt> TD: true, but its not hard to generate a ton of keys and backup earlier...much better to just allocate 1000 addresses and back all of those up and let that repeat instead
1988 2011-07-07 11:29:48 oozyburglar has joined
1989 2011-07-07 11:29:51 <TD> thousand is nowhere near enough
1990 2011-07-07 11:30:00 <TD> eventually you'd run out, not realize you had to make a new backup
1991 2011-07-07 11:30:06 <TD> you could have warnings in the software
1992 2011-07-07 11:30:08 <BlueMatt> well how many can you generate before you start to hit limits
1993 2011-07-07 11:30:11 <TD> "backup now!!!!" type alerts
1994 2011-07-07 11:30:17 <BlueMatt> no, Im saying 1000 and let them repeat
1995 2011-07-07 11:30:22 <justmoon> sipa, it's kind of confusing to call it any kind of RNG - we're not generating, we're transforming the original address into different ones
1996 2011-07-07 11:30:23 <BlueMatt> but yea 10,000 is probably better, maybe more
1997 2011-07-07 11:30:40 <sipa> justmoon: you've just created a stream cipher, seeded with a master key
1998 2011-07-07 11:30:50 <justmoon> sipa, yep
1999 2011-07-07 11:30:59 <justmoon> (kind of)
2000 2011-07-07 11:31:02 <sipa> which is technically the same as a PRNG
2001 2011-07-07 11:31:06 <BlueMatt> justmoon: unless you invented a new algo that is magical and no cryptographer has ever invented yet, there is a limit here
2002 2011-07-07 11:31:10 <sipa> only different level of security
2003 2011-07-07 11:31:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: i disagree
2004 2011-07-07 11:31:27 noagendamarket has joined
2005 2011-07-07 11:31:28 <TD> i like the idea of being able to back up your wallet by writing down a few letters and digits
2006 2011-07-07 11:31:32 <justmoon> BlueMatt, you're thinking of the wrong problem
2007 2011-07-07 11:31:33 underscor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2008 2011-07-07 11:31:41 <sipa> there may be exploits, and you should be sure to avoid known cases
2009 2011-07-07 11:31:52 <cuddlefish> TD: you'd need a damn long key
2010 2011-07-07 11:32:00 <sipa> but knowing the result of a stream cipher should not let you guess the key
2011 2011-07-07 11:32:01 <cuddlefish> at least 25 digits with special characters
2012 2011-07-07 11:32:25 <TD> well you'd back up 256 bits + a few bits of extra data
2013 2011-07-07 11:32:35 <TD> quite possible to write that down and stash it in a drawer or filing cabinet somewhere
2014 2011-07-07 11:32:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: you cant generate infinite entropy from a limited supply
2015 2011-07-07 11:32:48 <justmoon> BlueMatt, we only need 256 bits of entropy
2016 2011-07-07 11:32:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: of course not, his whole wallet has 256 bits of entropy, and that's it
2017 2011-07-07 11:32:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: so at some point the addresses generated would be predictable in pattern
2018 2011-07-07 11:33:00 <justmoon> BlueMatt, every key can share they same entropy
2019 2011-07-07 11:33:03 <BlueMatt> at some distant point
2020 2011-07-07 11:33:43 <BlueMatt> afaik no algorithm has yet been invented that solves that
2021 2011-07-07 11:34:02 <justmoon> BlueMatt, you're claiming that SHA256 will repeat within a few billion hashes?!
2022 2011-07-07 11:34:09 <BlueMatt> no
2023 2011-07-07 11:34:14 <justmoon> yeah you just did
2024 2011-07-07 11:34:22 <BlueMatt> I didnt say repeat
2025 2011-07-07 11:34:36 <justmoon> ok, but get predictable?
2026 2011-07-07 11:34:42 <BlueMatt> I said would continue along a predictable path
2027 2011-07-07 11:35:10 <sipa> i'm not even sure if there is a problem with using (N,N+1,N+2,N+3,...) as private keys
2028 2011-07-07 11:35:10 <vegard> unless you have the initial seed, that should be infeasible
2029 2011-07-07 11:35:33 <sipa> though you're only secured by EC in that case, which i would avoid
2030 2011-07-07 11:36:09 <sipa> wait, nevermind, that's be trivial to crack
2031 2011-07-07 11:38:49 <BlueMatt> so the idea here is that you generate keys based on the SHA256 of a master key an an iterated int?
2032 2011-07-07 11:38:56 <justmoon> BlueMatt, yes
2033 2011-07-07 11:40:00 <BlueMatt> hmm...I just dont like the idea of deterministic wallets...
2034 2011-07-07 11:40:13 <sipa> they have a different use case than file-backed wallets
2035 2011-07-07 11:40:21 <BlueMatt> obviously
2036 2011-07-07 11:40:23 <sipa> and definitely less security
2037 2011-07-07 11:40:34 <BlueMatt> yep
2038 2011-07-07 11:40:42 <sipa> but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing given a certain attack model
2039 2011-07-07 11:40:53 <TD> why are they less secure
2040 2011-07-07 11:40:57 <BlueMatt> ...true
2041 2011-07-07 11:41:19 <BlueMatt> TD: depends on the attack or what info must remain secret
2042 2011-07-07 11:41:34 <sipa> it's a difference between using a passphrase or a keyfile
2043 2011-07-07 11:42:21 <BlueMatt> steal the master key and the wallet is dead for life, steal a classic wallet and a user might still be able to have his coins if he gets some later down the road even if he never knew his wallet was stolen
2044 2011-07-07 11:42:52 altamic has joined
2045 2011-07-07 11:42:53 <TD> pre-generating tons of keys makes the scenarios nearly equivalent
2046 2011-07-07 11:42:59 <TD> and i think the current pool size of 100 is way too small
2047 2011-07-07 11:43:08 <TD> it'll mean tears when backups turn out to have silently gone stale
2048 2011-07-07 11:43:16 <BlueMatt> additionally, those who wish to remain anonymous have plausible deniability of ownership of an address even if they have another
2049 2011-07-07 11:43:19 <justmoon> TD: except with pregenerated keys you can lose your coins accidentally more easily - if you backup is out of date
2050 2011-07-07 11:44:00 <BlueMatt> TD: well pre generated you can control the rate to be appropriate depending on how many you use per time period
2051 2011-07-07 11:44:01 <sipa> it's definitely equal to a pregenerated wallet with infinite amount of keys
2052 2011-07-07 11:44:19 <BlueMatt> if you are a merchant and need 1000 keys a day, you can have a keypool of 2000 and backup once a day
2053 2011-07-07 11:44:30 <BlueMatt> if you are a user and need 100 keys a month or less, you can set it to that
2054 2011-07-07 11:44:34 <justmoon> BlueMatt, backing up itself is a source of risk
2055 2011-07-07 11:44:38 <TD> users aren't going to think about this stuff
2056 2011-07-07 11:44:44 <TD> it's too complicated
2057 2011-07-07 11:44:55 <BlueMatt> true for end users
2058 2011-07-07 11:45:01 <BlueMatt> but for merchants?
2059 2011-07-07 11:45:02 <TD> imho what they'll want is something like "Write down this code, remember your passphrase, and you're done"
2060 2011-07-07 11:45:16 tenzin has joined
2061 2011-07-07 11:45:21 <TD> for merchants the fact that you can generate new public keys on the fly without the private keys being available is pretty nice
2062 2011-07-07 11:45:28 <TD> though pre-generating lots of keys also achieves that
2063 2011-07-07 11:45:32 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  I wouldn't given merchants much more credit than end users
2064 2011-07-07 11:45:39 <justmoon> TD: you can do that with file wallets as well
2065 2011-07-07 11:45:46 <justmoon> TD: that's a separate idea
2066 2011-07-07 11:45:53 tenzin has quit (Client Quit)
2067 2011-07-07 11:45:58 <TD> ok
2068 2011-07-07 11:46:01 <justmoon> TD: or separable idea
2069 2011-07-07 11:46:09 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: reasonable merchants should get more credit because they have an it dept, even if it sucks its better than my mother
2070 2011-07-07 11:46:28 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2071 2011-07-07 11:46:49 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  but I think bitcoin is going to go from small merchants up...  and small merchants don't have it depts
2072 2011-07-07 11:47:06 <Blitzboom> http://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=350x200&chd=t:0.83,50.25,3.75,22.53,6.09,0.00,2.94,5.61,0.29,6.49,1.03,0.20&cht=p&chf=bg,s,00000000&chl=ars|deepbit|BitcoinPool|slush|bitcoins.lc|btcguild|MtRed|other|bitpit|btcmine|bitclockers|swepool
2073 2011-07-07 11:47:09 <Blitzboom> very cool
2074 2011-07-07 11:47:10 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: irrelevant, s/merchant/someone with an it dept/
2075 2011-07-07 11:47:15 <TD> for me the appeal is easier backups
2076 2011-07-07 11:47:16 <Blitzboom> i love how decentralized bitcoin is
2077 2011-07-07 11:47:20 <Blitzboom> 90% volume mtgox
2078 2011-07-07 11:47:21 <TD> right now to back up, you basically need a USB key
2079 2011-07-07 11:47:24 <TD> and to drag files around
2080 2011-07-07 11:47:24 <Blitzboom> 50% hashrate deepbit
2081 2011-07-07 11:47:36 <BlueMatt> I agree it has advantages for certain use cases, but imho you have to be even more careful of your wallet than you ever did...
2082 2011-07-07 11:47:44 <BlueMatt> and that is even more a pain
2083 2011-07-07 11:48:03 <TD> wallet theft with huge delays is kind of unlikely. i mean, a thief will drain the wallet ASAP usually right?
2084 2011-07-07 11:48:11 <TD> Blitzboom: why is deepbit so much more popular than the others?
2085 2011-07-07 11:48:19 <sipa> i really don't get it
2086 2011-07-07 11:48:20 <justmoon> BlueMatt, you don't have to be any more careful than with a normal wallet - you pregenerate keys remember? it'll take forever until all keys are emptied off an old backup
2087 2011-07-07 11:48:20 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  but if you want merchants to adopt bitcoin you will need to make it easy for the small merchants first
2088 2011-07-07 11:48:21 <BlueMatt> not if its deterministic...or I wouldnt if its deterministic
2089 2011-07-07 11:48:22 <Blitzboom> TD: i don’t know. maybe ease of use
2090 2011-07-07 11:48:30 <Blitzboom> deepbit charges 3% fees
2091 2011-07-07 11:48:32 Speeder has joined
2092 2011-07-07 11:48:36 <Blitzboom> so i guess people like being fucked in the ass?
2093 2011-07-07 11:48:51 <Blitzboom> TD: but my theory is just network effect
2094 2011-07-07 11:48:55 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: deepbit is popular because deepbit is popular...
2095 2011-07-07 11:48:59 <Blitzboom> yup
2096 2011-07-07 11:49:05 <sipa> network effect, yes
2097 2011-07-07 11:49:15 <TD> i hope the distributed pools ideas go somewhere
2098 2011-07-07 11:49:15 <Blitzboom> network effect will fuck bitcoin up
2099 2011-07-07 11:49:16 <b4epoche_> cool name
2100 2011-07-07 11:49:22 <BlueMatt> justmoon: as I said before, it depends on the rate of generation
2101 2011-07-07 11:49:30 <doublec> #1 google hit for 'bitcoin mining pool'
2102 2011-07-07 11:49:31 <justmoon> TD: I guess there could be scenarios where the thief gets a hand on a brand new wallet and will wait for it to fill up
2103 2011-07-07 11:49:49 <BlueMatt> if it were deterministic I know I would
2104 2011-07-07 11:49:56 <Blitzboom> please see this topic of mine i have created two months ago: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8653.0
2105 2011-07-07 11:49:59 <Blitzboom> TWO MONTHS AGO
2106 2011-07-07 11:50:04 <Blitzboom> and it has only got WORSE
2107 2011-07-07 11:50:09 <justmoon> I see a lot of BlueMatt's points, but I gotta go with ease of use
2108 2011-07-07 11:50:22 <justmoon> hopefully hardware security won't be too far out
2109 2011-07-07 11:50:24 <b4epoche_> can anyone help other pools with SEO?
2110 2011-07-07 11:50:27 <Blitzboom> i mean, wtf is this
2111 2011-07-07 11:50:35 <BlueMatt> and I think for some users that makes sense, but not strictly in the case of webcoin
2112 2011-07-07 11:50:39 <Blitzboom> and people don’t give a damn
2113 2011-07-07 11:50:43 <BlueMatt> in fact, webcoin has already solved the backup problem
2114 2011-07-07 11:50:46 <TD> Blitzboom: so stability is one reason
2115 2011-07-07 11:50:48 <justmoon> BlueMatt, how so?
2116 2011-07-07 11:50:48 <BlueMatt> so deterministic doesnt add much
2117 2011-07-07 11:51:07 <BlueMatt> justmoon: do you not store your wallet encrypted on someone's server?
2118 2011-07-07 11:51:24 <Blitzboom> TD: all of this makes me lose trust in the free market
2119 2011-07-07 11:51:25 <BlueMatt> I would say its fairly safe to assume that server can handle backups of itself
2120 2011-07-07 11:51:28 <justmoon> BlueMatt, we assume the server can go offline/be seized etc
2121 2011-07-07 11:51:35 <Blitzboom> how can free markets work with idiot consumers?
2122 2011-07-07 11:51:44 <Blitzboom> tragedy of the commons, everywhere
2123 2011-07-07 11:51:56 <TD> a lot of miners aren't bitcoin gurus, i imagine
2124 2011-07-07 11:52:02 <TD> they just see "gpu + program == $$"
2125 2011-07-07 11:52:03 <BlueMatt> justmoon: true, but that doesnt mean webcoin cant already make it ridiculously easy to backup
2126 2011-07-07 11:52:07 <Blitzboom> of course not. they are in it for the cash
2127 2011-07-07 11:52:09 <BlueMatt> justmoon: multiple servers?
2128 2011-07-07 11:52:10 <TD> and haven't read the white paper nor would they really care
2129 2011-07-07 11:52:12 <doublec> a lot of miners just want USD from the bitcoins
2130 2011-07-07 11:52:20 <doublec> they could care less if a pool double spends or does anything
2131 2011-07-07 11:52:33 <Blitzboom> BUT also a lot of people who DO understand bitcoin don’t care
2132 2011-07-07 11:52:39 <Blitzboom> if you read the thread
2133 2011-07-07 11:52:42 <justmoon> BlueMatt, the other problem is that we can't generate addresses in advance, javascript is too slow for that
2134 2011-07-07 11:52:53 <Blitzboom> blabla deepbit has no incentive, blabla would be noticed anyway
2135 2011-07-07 11:53:02 <Blitzboom> they can’t do much anyway etc. etc.
2136 2011-07-07 11:53:04 <BlueMatt> justmoon: doesnt deterministic generation take longer?
2137 2011-07-07 11:53:26 <justmoon> BlueMatt, nah sha256 is negligible compared to ecdsa
2138 2011-07-07 11:53:36 <justmoon> it's like 15 ms vs 1200 ms
2139 2011-07-07 11:53:46 <BlueMatt> you can generate an ecdsa key w/o ever doing ec anything?
2140 2011-07-07 11:53:53 <BlueMatt> no, that has to be bs
2141 2011-07-07 11:53:58 <Blitzboom> how many times has deepbit been ddosed?
2142 2011-07-07 11:54:02 <Blitzboom> it has hardly been stable
2143 2011-07-07 11:54:08 <sipa> you can, you just don't know its public key or address in advance
2144 2011-07-07 11:54:14 <justmoon> BlueMatt, we need to generate the public key from the private key
2145 2011-07-07 11:54:20 <sipa> a private key is just a number
2146 2011-07-07 11:54:30 <BlueMatt> well ok, but you dont care about privkey
2147 2011-07-07 11:54:31 <justmoon> BlueMatt, that's a point multiplication, about 1.5 million function calls in our implementation
2148 2011-07-07 11:54:36 <BlueMatt> you just care about pubkey no?
2149 2011-07-07 11:54:43 <justmoon> BlueMatt, huh?
2150 2011-07-07 11:54:45 <Blitzboom> could someone please explain what the plans are for this pool problem?
2151 2011-07-07 11:54:50 <Blitzboom> or if there are any plans at all?
2152 2011-07-07 11:54:57 <BlueMatt> you wont use a key until you have the pubkey
2153 2011-07-07 11:55:11 <justmoon> BlueMatt, ah got you
2154 2011-07-07 11:55:17 <justmoon> BlueMatt, durr, you're right
2155 2011-07-07 11:55:22 <BlueMatt> and by that point you can have it on 20 servers around the world
2156 2011-07-07 11:55:33 <justmoon> BlueMatt, hmhmhm
2157 2011-07-07 11:56:33 sipa has left ()
2158 2011-07-07 11:56:48 <doublec> Blitzboom: cuddlefish's approach seemed interesting
2159 2011-07-07 11:56:55 <doublec> Blitzboom: if you're not busy you should try implementing it
2160 2011-07-07 11:57:05 <Blitzboom> i’m not a coder unfortunately
2161 2011-07-07 11:57:13 <justmoon> BlueMatt, well, I certainly won't decide this when I've been up for 24 hours without sleep :)
2162 2011-07-07 11:57:25 <BlueMatt> justmoon: alright, see you later then
2163 2011-07-07 11:57:25 <Blitzboom> though i am concerned with how lightly everyone takes this
2164 2011-07-07 11:57:30 <jav__> Blitzboom: also interesting - a P2P mining approach: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313.20
2165 2011-07-07 11:57:32 <TD> i wouldn't say it's taken lightly
2166 2011-07-07 11:57:36 <Blitzboom> and this "let’s just wait and see what happens" mentality
2167 2011-07-07 11:57:38 <justmoon> BlueMatt, I didn't say I was going to go to bed :)
2168 2011-07-07 11:57:40 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: its because we trust [Tycho] for the most part
2169 2011-07-07 11:57:42 <TD> more that everyone who can implement solutions is busy with other things
2170 2011-07-07 11:57:50 <TD> yes -and the present risk is low
2171 2011-07-07 11:57:53 <BlueMatt> justmoon: oh, well I was planning on going to work out anyway, see you all later
2172 2011-07-07 11:58:01 <justmoon> BlueMatt, k, thx take care
2173 2011-07-07 11:58:04 <TD> later
2174 2011-07-07 11:58:05 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: ok, so let’s have this cool cryptocurrency that’s solved the trust problem and trust [Tycho]
2175 2011-07-07 11:58:06 <Blitzboom> ahaha
2176 2011-07-07 11:58:15 <BlueMatt> yea thats broken...
2177 2011-07-07 11:58:26 <BlueMatt> but its not high on the priorities because of that
2178 2011-07-07 11:58:37 <Blitzboom> satoshi sohuld’ve foreseen this
2179 2011-07-07 11:58:45 <justmoon> nobody trusts tycho - are you saying if tycho stop all transactions miners won't switch?
2180 2011-07-07 11:58:46 <TD> he foresaw the use of GPUs.
2181 2011-07-07 11:58:47 <Blitzboom> it breaks bitcoin as a concept
2182 2011-07-07 11:58:49 <justmoon> stops*
2183 2011-07-07 11:58:56 <TD> i don't think he foresaw the pools concept
2184 2011-07-07 11:59:00 <Blitzboom> but he didn’t foresee >50% pools, did he?
2185 2011-07-07 11:59:09 <jeremias> http://bitcoin-hackathon.com/ <- anyone interested in bitcoin programming/hacking event, join in :)
2186 2011-07-07 11:59:22 <TD> arguably he did. the paper states in its abstract that attackers who own >50% of computational power have special powers ;)
2187 2011-07-07 11:59:25 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is based on the premise that in order to use it, you don’t have to trust anyone
2188 2011-07-07 11:59:37 <TD> yes. that's a very ambitious goal
2189 2011-07-07 11:59:41 <justmoon> TD: a pool does not own more than 50%, only manage
2190 2011-07-07 11:59:44 <justmoon> big difference
2191 2011-07-07 11:59:53 <BlueMatt> justmoon: no Im just saying as it currently is, tycho has done nothing wrong, and thus people dont do too much about the problem
2192 2011-07-07 11:59:54 <TD> justmoon: it can make its workers work on any blocks it likes, right
2193 2011-07-07 11:59:55 <justmoon> if you manage things you can't do what you want or you'll lose your mandate
2194 2011-07-07 11:59:55 <Blitzboom> obviously the tragedy of the commons just fucked it up
2195 2011-07-07 11:59:56 <BlueMatt> afawk
2196 2011-07-07 12:00:03 <Blitzboom> and it won’t get any better as time progresses
2197 2011-07-07 12:00:05 <TD> justmoon: i mean if tycho gets hacked
2198 2011-07-07 12:00:10 <Blitzboom> i thought it would
2199 2011-07-07 12:00:17 <justmoon> TD: so what, bitcoin will have a bad day
2200 2011-07-07 12:00:21 <doublec> Blitzboom: you're preaching to the converted in this channel. But given the resources vs jobs to do it isn't being tackled.
2201 2011-07-07 12:00:37 <Blitzboom> sorry, upsets me too much
2202 2011-07-07 12:00:41 <doublec> Blitzboom: you could try marketing other pools more strongly
2203 2011-07-07 12:00:45 <TD> i actually know some people who were working on distributed pools
2204 2011-07-07 12:00:51 <doublec> Blitzboom: or find a way to encourage development of alternative mining systems
2205 2011-07-07 12:00:52 <TD> the work got blocked by other things
2206 2011-07-07 12:00:56 <TD> so it hasn't been released yet
2207 2011-07-07 12:01:05 <justmoon> TD: I'd say mtgox hack was way worse (and could've been way way worse still) than somebody having 51% for a day or two
2208 2011-07-07 12:01:08 <moa7> it is not tragedy of the commons
2209 2011-07-07 12:01:14 Eremes has joined
2210 2011-07-07 12:01:17 <TD> the real solution for this is to integrate p2p pooled mining into the official client
2211 2011-07-07 12:01:19 <justmoon> mybitcoin hack would also be worse than that imho
2212 2011-07-07 12:01:24 <TD> yeah
2213 2011-07-07 12:01:36 <Blitzboom> moa7: what is it?
2214 2011-07-07 12:01:44 <justmoon> p2p pooled mining - me like who verifies transactions?
2215 2011-07-07 12:01:54 <justmoon> me like,*
2216 2011-07-07 12:02:06 <moa7> competitive advantage
2217 2011-07-07 12:02:07 <TD> there is a design doc out there somewhere
2218 2011-07-07 12:02:15 <doublec> justmoon: seen forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313 ?
2219 2011-07-07 12:02:26 <TD> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ciKH3M8WYS49ywz08beXtvpCm2wVGdzU7waKwcn_uaU/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CJTqyOMF
2220 2011-07-07 12:02:49 <justmoon> doublec, I'm always waiting for a bitcoin edition graphics card
2221 2011-07-07 12:03:14 <doublec> justmoon: also this http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137
2222 2011-07-07 12:03:33 <justmoon> yeah I posted in that oen
2223 2011-07-07 12:03:35 <justmoon> one*
2224 2011-07-07 12:04:06 <justmoon> does someone on pages 2-7 figure who verifies transactions in that model? :)
2225 2011-07-07 12:04:23 karnac has joined
2226 2011-07-07 12:04:31 <justmoon> ah never mind, I remember
2227 2011-07-07 12:07:00 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2230 2011-07-07 12:11:40 <b4epoche_> has anyone ever tried to model the bitcoin economy?  dynamical systems style?
2231 2011-07-07 12:14:24 Superbest has joined
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2234 2011-07-07 12:17:05 <moa7> chodpaba is doing some time series analysis in the forums, somewhat related
2235 2011-07-07 12:17:45 neopallium has joined
2236 2011-07-07 12:18:15 <b4epoche_> link?
2237 2011-07-07 12:19:10 <b4epoche_> nm, found something
2238 2011-07-07 12:19:57 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2239 2011-07-07 12:21:19 <moa7> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22685.0
2240 2011-07-07 12:21:51 <moa7> reference USD
2241 2011-07-07 12:22:30 cygnus2112 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2244 2011-07-07 12:25:36 joallard has left ("Ex-Chat")
2245 2011-07-07 12:26:18 <Cryo> are there any bitcoin devs on google+ yet?
2246 2011-07-07 12:27:20 <Cryo> Google+ is now open to anyone with a Google account. plus.google.com and sign up
2247 2011-07-07 12:35:55 <Blitzboom> http://www.pascazilaw.com/files/New_Coin_of_the_Realm_062311.pdf
2248 2011-07-07 12:36:12 <Blitzboom> do we have any assassination markets yet?
2249 2011-07-07 12:36:41 <Blitzboom> trademarking bitcoin. trolololo
2250 2011-07-07 12:37:05 <Blitzboom> Bitcoin is a mark whose registration by Magellan Capital Advisors LLC is pending with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
2251 2011-07-07 12:37:37 <Blitzboom> http://www.magellanadvisor.com/
2252 2011-07-07 12:37:50 <UukGoblin> lol good luck with that to them
2253 2011-07-07 12:37:57 <UukGoblin> fuckers
2254 2011-07-07 12:40:40 <Blitzboom> lol, nice website from the lawyer: http://pascazilaw.com/
2255 2011-07-07 12:40:40 torsthaldo_ has joined
2256 2011-07-07 12:41:16 <Blitzboom> here’s the guy: http://pascazilaw.com/images/MPascazi_Photo_Small_0510.jpg
2257 2011-07-07 12:41:40 <UukGoblin> omfg what a prick
2258 2011-07-07 12:41:46 <JFK911> hes "smiling" like he needs a bunch of dental work
2259 2011-07-07 12:42:18 <JFK911> lets overlay some dicks onto this photo.
2260 2011-07-07 12:42:25 iz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2262 2011-07-07 12:43:48 iz has joined
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2266 2011-07-07 12:52:04 <senseles> has anyone had any success getting bitcoin to compile under centos?
2267 2011-07-07 12:53:07 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: jwsample * r139 /branches/keystore/ (12 files in 5 dirs): Very rough draft of the keystore half of a wallet interface for comment. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r139/
2268 2011-07-07 12:54:07 <senseles> it's so sad I've absolutely destroyed this linux box with all these custom installs trying to get this thing running
2269 2011-07-07 12:55:53 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2270 2011-07-07 12:56:13 <Cryo> format and install NetBSD on it
2271 2011-07-07 12:56:55 <senseles> heh
2272 2011-07-07 12:57:13 <senseles> as if i didnt already have enough fun compiling
2273 2011-07-07 12:57:25 <senseles> i dont think it would matter anyway
2274 2011-07-07 12:57:43 <senseles> ive downloaded and installed the boost lib specified 1.37 and it's still giving undefined reference errors
2275 2011-07-07 12:57:45 The_SLain_MAn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2276 2011-07-07 12:57:57 <senseles> ive tried 1.46 and it gives me various other errors
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2282 2011-07-07 13:03:43 <senseles> seems like the program not compiling on one of the most common server distributions would lead to acceptance issues
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2290 2011-07-07 13:16:03 <Cryo> I think I'm going to build an OSX version that doesn't use the wxWidgets for X11, but the Cocoa ones, like I did for the otr-proxy app
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2294 2011-07-07 13:18:43 <jav__> do any of you guys have some insight into the state of things of the ripple project? (do they have an IRC channel?)
2295 2011-07-07 13:20:09 vokoda` has joined
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2297 2011-07-07 13:21:13 <jav__> It's my understanding, that the Ripple software currently only supports centralized server setups ... but that they are working on a decentralized solution
2298 2011-07-07 13:21:29 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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2300 2011-07-07 13:22:06 <jav__> although I wonder how feasible that is... you then have to find trust paths that might span over multiple servers.. sounds like a pretty hard problem
2301 2011-07-07 13:32:22 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2302 2011-07-07 13:34:34 <b4epoche> Cryo:  OSX version?
2303 2011-07-07 13:35:42 b4epoche_ has joined
2304 2011-07-07 13:36:32 <Cryo> yeh
2305 2011-07-07 13:36:41 <b4epoche> of what?
2306 2011-07-07 13:36:58 <Cryo> the client from the git repo
2307 2011-07-07 13:37:08 <b4epoche> you want to test mine?
2308 2011-07-07 13:37:36 <Cryo> is it cocoa, fat, and 10.4+?
2309 2011-07-07 13:37:43 <Cryo> if so, yes.
2310 2011-07-07 13:38:01 <b4epoche> fat?  ppc+intel?  no
2311 2011-07-07 13:38:12 <b4epoche> and 10.5.6+
2312 2011-07-07 13:38:16 <Cryo> ppc is borked, but fat for 32/64
2313 2011-07-07 13:38:17 <jrmithdobbs> Cryo: huh? bitcoin doesn't use wx for x11 it uses cocoa wx bindings
2314 2011-07-07 13:38:31 <doublec> jav__: there are threads in the forums about it
2315 2011-07-07 13:38:36 <Cryo> hmm, I was reading the makefile wrong?
2316 2011-07-07 13:38:39 <jrmithdobbs> Cryo: and someone already has a native cocoa ui implemented
2317 2011-07-07 13:38:40 <doublec> jav__: including from ripple developers
2318 2011-07-07 13:38:50 <b4epoche> me! ;-)
2319 2011-07-07 13:38:56 <jrmithdobbs> yes him!
2320 2011-07-07 13:39:07 <jav__> doublec: about ripple in general? or the path finding in a decentralized setting in particular?
2321 2011-07-07 13:39:08 <b4epoche> but I would be willing to have help
2322 2011-07-07 13:39:13 <Cryo> then, yes I'll gladly test instead of hacking it
2323 2011-07-07 13:39:15 <doublec> jav__: both
2324 2011-07-07 13:39:23 <jrmithdobbs> Cryo: you can't tell from the makefile which it uses seeing as all that is decided by how wx is built not how bitcoin is built
2325 2011-07-07 13:39:30 <doublec> jav__: eg http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4334.0
2326 2011-07-07 13:39:33 Gonzago has joined
2327 2011-07-07 13:39:40 <b4epoche> Cryo:  it's only 32-bit at the moment because I didn't compile all the libs it needs for 64-bit
2328 2011-07-07 13:39:51 <jav__> doublec: thx, I'll check it out
2329 2011-07-07 13:39:54 <jrmithdobbs> Cryo: if the version of wx you build against is built for x11 then sure, bitcoin will use that, but the build instructions provided do not tell you to do that
2330 2011-07-07 13:40:01 cdecker has joined
2331 2011-07-07 13:40:17 <doublec> jav__: look up any posts by Daniel, who is the original poster of that thread
2332 2011-07-07 13:40:38 <Cryo> hrm
2333 2011-07-07 13:41:13 <Cryo> DEPSDIR=/Users/macosuser/bitcoin/deps
2334 2011-07-07 13:41:18 <Cryo> that could be part of the problem
2335 2011-07-07 13:41:24 <b4epoche> I'm just trying to get the stuff implemented on i386 first…  but it shouldn't be a big deal to get x86_64 too
2336 2011-07-07 13:41:31 <Cryo> WXLIBS=$(shell $(DEPSDIR)/bin/wx-config --libs --static)
2337 2011-07-07 13:42:05 <b4epoche> yea, uh, that needs changed for your env
2338 2011-07-07 13:42:18 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: pretty sure your code will build 64bit as is no problem
2339 2011-07-07 13:42:20 <Cryo> 0939][cryo@Slurm:~/bitcoin/src]$ wx-config --list
2340 2011-07-07 13:42:20 <Cryo>     Default config is mac-unicode-release-static-2.8
2341 2011-07-07 13:42:28 <jrmithdobbs> at least, assuming you ever updated git with a buildable version ;p
2342 2011-07-07 13:42:30 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs:  I'm sure /my/ code will
2343 2011-07-07 13:42:33 pakiaries2 has joined
2344 2011-07-07 13:42:40 <b4epoche> it's just that the dylibs with it are not univeral
2345 2011-07-07 13:42:48 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: which libs?
2346 2011-07-07 13:43:01 <jrmithdobbs> cause i'm pretty sure i already have built all the dep libs 64bit no problem as well
2347 2011-07-07 13:43:15 Glasswalker has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2348 2011-07-07 13:43:18 <Cryo> I'm going by what errors I was seeing when I was building… but I probably needed more beer
2349 2011-07-07 13:43:27 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2350 2011-07-07 13:43:39 <b4epoche> I got hung up on something with 64bit...
2351 2011-07-07 13:43:45 <b4epoche> let me look
2352 2011-07-07 13:43:52 <Cryo> yeh, I'm full 64
2353 2011-07-07 13:44:05 karnac has joined
2354 2011-07-07 13:44:54 <b4epoche> hmm…  yea it's just libdb that isn't
2355 2011-07-07 13:45:03 <jrmithdobbs> i use libdb from ports
2356 2011-07-07 13:45:05 <jrmithdobbs> and it is ;p
2357 2011-07-07 13:45:07 <Cryo> I'll dick with it
2358 2011-07-07 13:45:11 <b4epoche> I didn't really try to hard…
2359 2011-07-07 13:45:23 <b4epoche> one hurdle and I probably quit ;-)
2360 2011-07-07 13:45:37 <Cryo> I wanted to import this into pkgsrc-wip
2361 2011-07-07 13:46:20 ZOP has joined
2362 2011-07-07 13:46:21 <jrmithdobbs> erm, i can't even find libdb atm
2363 2011-07-07 13:46:51 <jrmithdobbs> of there it is
2364 2011-07-07 13:47:07 <b4epoche> building with port
2365 2011-07-07 13:47:11 <jrmithdobbs> /opt/local/lib/db48/libdb-4.8.dylib: Mach-O 64-bit dynamically linked shared library x86_64
2366 2011-07-07 13:47:21 <Cryo> fink or macports?
2367 2011-07-07 13:47:26 <b4epoche> macports
2368 2011-07-07 13:47:26 <jrmithdobbs> fink is dead
2369 2011-07-07 13:47:34 <Cryo> yeh, I'm pkgsrc.
2370 2011-07-07 13:47:45 <jrmithdobbs> fink hasn't been even useful since 10.4
2371 2011-07-07 13:47:50 <b4epoche> pkgsrc?
2372 2011-07-07 13:47:57 <jrmithdobbs> even semi-useful*
2373 2011-07-07 13:47:57 <Cryo> NetBSD pkgsrc
2374 2011-07-07 13:48:12 <b4epoche> but fink was nice for the binaries
2375 2011-07-07 13:48:16 <Cryo> that's why all of the endian crap I was whining about a couple weeks ago
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2377 2011-07-07 13:48:33 <b4epoche> someone needs to host macport binaries
2378 2011-07-07 13:51:22 <jrmithdobbs> what is the damn equiv to HOME on windows?
2379 2011-07-07 13:51:31 <jrmithdobbs> the environment variable
2380 2011-07-07 13:52:07 mmoya has joined
2381 2011-07-07 13:52:15 <nanotube> %HOME% maybe? heh
2382 2011-07-07 13:52:41 <jrmithdobbs> no
2383 2011-07-07 13:52:55 <jrmithdobbs> just found it. %HOMEPATH% because they just gots to be slightly different for no goddamned reason
2384 2011-07-07 13:53:48 <ZOP> heh w/ windows, depends on what your'e storing, and whether-or-not you want it copied into the network profile or not for domain logins... :D
2385 2011-07-07 13:53:58 <ZOP> they made it messy, typical of windows.
2386 2011-07-07 13:54:06 <jrmithdobbs> my impression of windows 7 over the last few days is not good
2387 2011-07-07 13:54:14 <jrmithdobbs> i thought people said the user experience got better?
2388 2011-07-07 13:54:26 <ZOP> it's still windows.
2389 2011-07-07 13:54:30 <ZOP> i still have random BSODs
2390 2011-07-07 13:55:01 <jrmithdobbs> how is taking >36 hours to get patched passed sp1 "better" including 6 hours of hassling because windows update randomly forgot that sp1 even existed and said i canceled it at some point (didn't) and i had to go grab it from download.microsoft.com to actually get it to apply
2391 2011-07-07 13:55:12 <ZOP> it still has the idiocy that it thinks "whatever just happened in any random app is immediately the most important thing in the world so we'll throw a popup box in your face that you'll never get to read coz you just pressed spacebar somewhere"
2392 2011-07-07 13:55:14 <JFK911> worked fine for me
2393 2011-07-07 13:55:21 <JFK911> never had a stop or anything on windows 7
2394 2011-07-07 13:55:34 TheZimm has joined
2395 2011-07-07 13:55:42 <b4epoche> hmm…  macports db48 +universal installed fine...
2396 2011-07-07 13:55:50 <ZOP> The networking stack is also a pile of dog shit.
2397 2011-07-07 13:55:57 <jrmithdobbs> then once actually downloaded sp1 it took ~3 hours to install it. on essentially a fresh install that has um, office (already patched but no settings for any of the apps) installed and that's about it
2398 2011-07-07 13:56:08 <ZOP> (again...they had fixed it,t hen they started fuckign with it again)
2399 2011-07-07 13:56:10 <jrmithdobbs> 3 hours. on a quadcore i7 w/4G of ram and ssd
2400 2011-07-07 13:56:16 <jrmithdobbs> how does that even work?!
2401 2011-07-07 13:56:17 <JFK911> why didnt you just install from a dvd with sp1 if you want sp1
2402 2011-07-07 13:56:30 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: have to start with the corp image
2403 2011-07-07 13:56:38 <ZOP> jrmithdobbs: yeah and once SP1 gets installed you'll still have a few hundred megs of patches and reboots to do.
2404 2011-07-07 13:56:39 appamatto has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2405 2011-07-07 13:56:40 <Cryo> because… it's windows?
2406 2011-07-07 13:56:40 <JFK911> my corp image has sp1 in it
2407 2011-07-07 13:56:48 <JFK911> takes 11 minutes to install it from the deployment server
2408 2011-07-07 13:56:59 <b4epoche> eh, doing "open *" in /opt/local/lib is not good ;-)
2409 2011-07-07 13:57:01 <JFK911> im pretty sure if i kicked one off now it would patch itself within 1hr too
2410 2011-07-07 13:57:16 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: like i would *purchase* something to run windows on?! shit, the 36 hours patching alone justifies spending ~$500 more on an equiv macbook pro to this thinkpad for me.
2411 2011-07-07 13:57:20 <Cryo> your patch server might be local too
2412 2011-07-07 13:57:38 <JFK911> Cryo: it is
2413 2011-07-07 13:57:49 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: because the image they've shipped to ibm for the preload doesn't include sp1 yet
2414 2011-07-07 13:57:57 <jrmithdobbs> err s/ibm/lenovo/
2415 2011-07-07 13:58:04 <JFK911> but it still maxes out my downstream when it syncs from MS
2416 2011-07-07 13:58:24 <JFK911> im not sure if its the same mess of serving that handles web updates
2417 2011-07-07 13:58:24 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: my problem was not the downloading.
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2419 2011-07-07 13:58:54 <JFK911> maybe lenovo put 27 badware memory hog apps on your computer.
2420 2011-07-07 13:58:56 <JFK911> like mcaffee.
2421 2011-07-07 13:59:01 <JFK911> and thinkpad help
2422 2011-07-07 13:59:06 <JFK911> and thinkpad button application
2423 2011-07-07 13:59:11 <JFK911> and thinkpad network hog
2424 2011-07-07 13:59:13 <ZOP> heh yeah thats another nice problem with the PC vendors
2425 2011-07-07 13:59:16 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: did you skip the part where it's our image?
2426 2011-07-07 13:59:45 <JFK911> oh i just read that lenovo imaged the machine
2427 2011-07-07 13:59:47 <JFK911> so it is your fault
2428 2011-07-07 13:59:47 <ZOP> "lets install a whole pile of shit you'll never use, that we get paid for sending out to you!"
2429 2011-07-07 14:00:01 <JFK911> if its your image
2430 2011-07-07 14:00:17 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: it has the thinkpad button stuff, mcaffee, cisco security agent, vpn client, and full disk encryption (but it's aes256 so that *WAS NOT* the slow down)
2431 2011-07-07 14:00:18 <b4epoche> that's the PC way...
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2433 2011-07-07 14:00:40 Astrohacker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2434 2011-07-07 14:00:42 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: and office
2435 2011-07-07 14:00:48 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2436 2011-07-07 14:00:55 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: there's nothing installed that justifies 3 hours for an sp1 install
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2438 2011-07-07 14:01:09 <JFK911> theres really nothing that justifies installing sp1
2439 2011-07-07 14:01:12 <JFK911> im not sure why you did it
2440 2011-07-07 14:01:12 <jrmithdobbs> but please keep being a ms fanboy i guess
2441 2011-07-07 14:01:33 <JFK911> i declined sp1 on my update server, and the only machines that have it are the ones that got installed post sp1
2442 2011-07-07 14:01:48 <jrmithdobbs> why the hell would you do that?
2443 2011-07-07 14:01:51 <JFK911> now an office 2010 sp1 appeared recently
2444 2011-07-07 14:02:14 <JFK911> did you read what's included on sp1?
2445 2011-07-07 14:02:18 <JFK911> nothing i care about and
2446 2011-07-07 14:02:20 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2447 2011-07-07 14:02:27 <JFK911> no sense applying it to machine with current patches
2448 2011-07-07 14:02:32 <Diablo-D3> http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/Wn4hn_QIkGI/Lawyer-Attempts-To-Trademark-Bitcoin
2449 2011-07-07 14:02:33 <Diablo-D3> LOL
2450 2011-07-07 14:02:40 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2451 2011-07-07 14:02:44 <Cryo> nice try.
2452 2011-07-07 14:02:46 <JFK911> but i will be pushing office sp1
2453 2011-07-07 14:02:55 <jrmithdobbs> considering how quick ms likes to discontinue security patches for machines without sps i don't really care what's in it
2454 2011-07-07 14:02:55 Astrohacker has joined
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2458 2011-07-07 14:03:34 <JFK911> im sure five years from now the machines without sp1 right now will be reimaged
2459 2011-07-07 14:03:37 <JFK911> it is windoze after all
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2466 2011-07-07 14:18:27 <Cryo> 10:15  <RangerRick> haven't done binaries for quite some time, but fink is still alive
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2468 2011-07-07 14:19:13 <jackmcbarn> is there anywhere i can see what times the last few blocks were generated at?
2469 2011-07-07 14:19:29 <b4epoche> eh, yea, it's alive…  but support seems to have died
2470 2011-07-07 14:22:39 <nanotube> jackmcbarn: blockexplorer.com
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2494 2011-07-07 14:50:30 <justmoon> holy shit, epic hailstorm out here o_O - just woke up
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2496 2011-07-07 14:50:50 <b4epoche> where?
2497 2011-07-07 14:50:58 <justmoon> central switzerland
2498 2011-07-07 14:51:19 <justmoon> I woke up and it was load like a football stadion
2499 2011-07-07 14:51:25 <b4epoche> isn't all switzerland 'central'?
2500 2011-07-07 14:51:42 <justmoon> well in the center of that :)
2501 2011-07-07 14:51:53 <justmoon> loud*
2502 2011-07-07 14:52:37 <justmoon> anyway
2503 2011-07-07 14:52:47 estornudo has joined
2504 2011-07-07 14:53:05 <justmoon> imagine waking up and it sounds like there is at least twenty banging against your windows and walls
2505 2011-07-07 14:53:13 <justmoon> twenty people*
2506 2011-07-07 14:53:17 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2507 2011-07-07 14:53:21 <b4epoche> damage?
2508 2011-07-07 14:53:43 <justmoon> I had the blinds down, I'll go check damage once it stops completely
2509 2011-07-07 14:53:51 <justmoon> at the moment it's died down a bit
2510 2011-07-07 14:53:59 * justmoon calms down
2511 2011-07-07 14:54:06 <b4epoche> hmm…  waking up?  it's afternoon there, no?
2512 2011-07-07 14:54:21 <justmoon> yeah, I worked through the night, just went to bed at 2pm
2513 2011-07-07 14:55:02 <justmoon> that just adds to the whole "whaaa... iss goooiingg onn - did someone divide by zero?!" factor
2514 2011-07-07 14:55:33 <justmoon> alright anyway, probably gonna catch some more sleep :)
2515 2011-07-07 14:56:39 <TD> sleep well :)
2516 2011-07-07 14:57:06 Taveren93HGK has joined
2517 2011-07-07 14:57:08 <justmoon> TD: did you notice any of that in zurich?
2518 2011-07-07 14:57:12 <TD> yeah
2519 2011-07-07 14:57:17 <TD> it was real solid for a short while
2520 2011-07-07 14:57:19 <TD> but, i have my headphones on
2521 2011-07-07 14:57:23 <justmoon> there is like massive piles of ice here now
2522 2011-07-07 14:57:23 <TD> only noticed when i looked out of the window
2523 2011-07-07 14:57:25 <justmoon> wtf
2524 2011-07-07 14:57:25 <TD> oh
2525 2011-07-07 14:57:28 <denisx> its 5pm!
2526 2011-07-07 14:57:30 <TD> no, we didn't have it that bad
2527 2011-07-07 14:57:41 * TD is in shorts+tshirt today
2528 2011-07-07 14:57:47 <TD> i blame el nino
2529 2011-07-07 14:57:58 <justmoon> yeah, whatever I'll blame that too
2530 2011-07-07 14:58:03 <TD> or maybe US congress, haha :)
2531 2011-07-07 14:58:07 <justmoon> lol
2532 2011-07-07 14:58:14 <b4epoche> blame the miners adding to global warming
2533 2011-07-07 14:58:20 <justmoon> alright, see you around
2534 2011-07-07 14:58:22 <justmoon> night! :)
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2604 2011-07-07 16:10:24 <b4epoche> dumb C++ question:  What does stuff like "ssKey >> strAddress;" do?
2605 2011-07-07 16:10:51 Katapult has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2606 2011-07-07 16:11:45 <upb> invokes the >> operator
2607 2011-07-07 16:11:50 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
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2609 2011-07-07 16:12:48 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/string/operator%3E%3E/
2610 2011-07-07 16:12:55 <b4epoche> i.e. bitwise right shift?
2611 2011-07-07 16:13:01 <enquirer> they use it often to denote stream in/out operation
2612 2011-07-07 16:13:21 <BlueMatt> >> and << are typically overrided like crazy depending on the object
2613 2011-07-07 16:13:24 <enquirer> something like  "extract address from key"
2614 2011-07-07 16:13:28 <BlueMatt> in this case, Im assuming strAddress is a string
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2616 2011-07-07 16:13:47 <b4epoche> okay, thx BlueMatt, that's what it looked to be doing but the bit shift confused me
2617 2011-07-07 16:13:47 <BlueMatt> you need to figure out what type it is
2618 2011-07-07 16:13:58 <upb> its not a 'bit shift'
2619 2011-07-07 16:14:20 <BlueMatt> why would you have two variables to a bit shift?
2620 2011-07-07 16:14:27 <upb> anyway you need to know the types of both objects
2621 2011-07-07 16:14:57 <b4epoche> I know it's not a bit shift but >> by default is, no?
2622 2011-07-07 16:15:05 <upb> yes
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2624 2011-07-07 16:15:10 <b4epoche> which was really confusing...
2625 2011-07-07 16:15:18 <BlueMatt> no its not
2626 2011-07-07 16:15:27 <upb> its a nice way to do dsl
2627 2011-07-07 16:15:27 <BlueMatt> it depends on the object too much
2628 2011-07-07 16:15:32 <BlueMatt> there isnt much of a default for >> or <<
2629 2011-07-07 16:15:38 erus` has joined
2630 2011-07-07 16:15:45 <BlueMatt> its overrided too much
2631 2011-07-07 16:16:44 rethaw has quit (Client Quit)
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2633 2011-07-07 16:17:21 <b4epoche> http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/operators/
2634 2011-07-07 16:18:07 <BlueMatt> meh, its rarely used that way...
2635 2011-07-07 16:18:17 <b4epoche> kinda sums up the mess…  they use << with strings and then say later it's a shift...
2636 2011-07-07 16:19:01 <erus`> deepbit is down :(
2637 2011-07-07 16:19:02 <b4epoche> anyway, I understand it now (and all languages have idiosyncrasies)
2638 2011-07-07 16:19:42 <erus`> b4epoche: its just context
2639 2011-07-07 16:19:54 <dikidera> does a miner also use negative nonces?
2640 2011-07-07 16:20:01 <erus`> a dogs tail is different to a story tale
2641 2011-07-07 16:20:18 <b4epoche> bad analogy ;-)
2642 2011-07-07 16:20:24 <b4epoche> tail != tale
2643 2011-07-07 16:20:27 <erus`> but they are both ta(i)l(e)s
2644 2011-07-07 16:20:44 <erus`> it works if you say it out loud
2645 2011-07-07 16:21:28 <b4epoche> but I got it…  like the pointer mess of *'s []'s {}'s &'s
2646 2011-07-07 16:23:10 <erus`> pointers are pretty obvious once you 'see the matrix'
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2650 2011-07-07 16:23:56 <b4epoche> but stuff like *foo[] is inconsistent (imo) but convenient
2651 2011-07-07 16:24:21 <erus`> i allways do char **argv
2652 2011-07-07 16:24:26 <erus`> i can read it quicker
2653 2011-07-07 16:26:00 pyro_ has joined
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2655 2011-07-07 16:27:07 <b4epoche> okay, I realize the addressBook code has some issues, but shouldn't     pwalletMain->SetAddressBookName(strAddress, strName); also update pwallet->mapAddressBook?
2656 2011-07-07 16:28:29 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2657 2011-07-07 16:28:34 <gim> b4epoche: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/358
2658 2011-07-07 16:28:42 <gim> first patch is in git tip
2659 2011-07-07 16:28:53 Fireball has joined
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2663 2011-07-07 16:29:59 <b4epoche> tip?
2664 2011-07-07 16:31:05 josephholsten has joined
2665 2011-07-07 16:32:18 <gim> it's included in the 0.3.24rcs
2666 2011-07-07 16:32:21 <b4epoche> stuff in https://github.com/sgimenez/bitcoin/commit/4d410cfce967a42cca7db13288b72baec29423d1 ?
2667 2011-07-07 16:32:37 dbitcoin has joined
2668 2011-07-07 16:32:45 <gim> yes
2669 2011-07-07 16:33:13 elnato is now known as midget
2670 2011-07-07 16:33:13 midget is now known as elnato
2671 2011-07-07 16:34:19 <Eremes> do I need to be online after clicking the send button ?
2672 2011-07-07 16:34:53 <Eremes> my bitcoin balance already deducted, but the font still in transparent
2673 2011-07-07 16:35:10 MrTiggr has joined
2674 2011-07-07 16:35:14 <gim> no, if you are connected to some peers it should be fine
2675 2011-07-07 16:35:20 altamic has joined
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2677 2011-07-07 16:35:20 altamic has joined
2678 2011-07-07 16:35:43 TiggrBot has joined
2679 2011-07-07 16:35:57 <Eremes> cool
2680 2011-07-07 16:36:07 <Eremes> so I can just go offline the second I hit the send button rite ?
2681 2011-07-07 16:36:10 pusle has joined
2682 2011-07-07 16:36:17 <gim> your tx is already know all around the world
2683 2011-07-07 16:36:21 <Eremes> I mean when I saw the balance already deducted
2684 2011-07-07 16:37:30 mmoya has joined
2685 2011-07-07 16:37:47 <wumpus> yes
2686 2011-07-07 16:38:10 <gim> i think it might happen that all your connected peer drop the transaction at the same time for some unknown reason, but it is really unlikely
2687 2011-07-07 16:38:47 dan_a has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2688 2011-07-07 16:38:58 <gim> it no peer have received your tx you are notified
2689 2011-07-07 16:39:52 Zarutian has joined
2690 2011-07-07 16:41:11 p0s- is now known as p0s
2691 2011-07-07 16:41:26 <Eremes> notified "offline" rite ?
2692 2011-07-07 16:41:51 skeledrew has joined
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2695 2011-07-07 16:43:05 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
2696 2011-07-07 16:43:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135187 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1900 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 16 hours, 16 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1522026.01446035
2697 2011-07-07 16:44:21 p0s is now known as p0s-
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2706 2011-07-07 16:52:14 <he1kki> testing testing, am I allowed to speak here?
2707 2011-07-07 16:52:20 p0s- is now known as p0s
2708 2011-07-07 16:52:46 <Diablo-D3> he1kki: no.
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2711 2011-07-07 16:54:26 <he1kki> Yess! Anyway, I have one weird transaction, I got it more than three hours ago, but It's still with zero confirmation. Would you consider that normal?
2712 2011-07-07 16:55:06 <he1kki> Cannot find it from block explorer, but I suppose it's not realtime
2713 2011-07-07 16:55:26 <BlueMatt> bbe will only show you a tx if its in a block aka confirmed
2714 2011-07-07 16:57:07 TiggrBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2715 2011-07-07 16:57:14 <BlueMatt> did it have a fee, how much was it for, etc?
2716 2011-07-07 16:58:26 koleg has joined
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2718 2011-07-07 16:59:15 koleg has joined
2719 2011-07-07 16:59:29 koleg has quit (2!~koleg@89.151.191.93|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2720 2011-07-07 16:59:29 <he1kki> Just a sec, noticed that I cannot copy+paste straigth from client
2721 2011-07-07 16:59:53 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2722 2011-07-07 17:00:42 estornudo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2725 2011-07-07 17:02:15 <BlueMatt> if there is enough info that you have to copy/paste, use a pastebin
2726 2011-07-07 17:02:15 <he1kki> Well that was ugliest debugging data collection, but pic @ http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j341uv&s=7
2727 2011-07-07 17:03:40 <BlueMatt> cntrl-f it on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ its there so it will show up soon
2728 2011-07-07 17:03:45 miner01 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2729 2011-07-07 17:03:55 <BlueMatt> but its low priority because its a fairly small amount and no fee was paid
2730 2011-07-07 17:04:56 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2731 2011-07-07 17:06:14 mosimo has joined
2732 2011-07-07 17:06:19 <he1kki> Oh, now I found it also! Thanks for this debug. Betco.in really need to start paying transaction fees then =)
2733 2011-07-07 17:06:19 pakiaries2 has quit (Quit: Quiting)
2734 2011-07-07 17:06:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: any -rc3 bugs cropping up?
2735 2011-07-07 17:06:56 <BlueMatt> not afaik, but Im not on the subscription for the announce thread on the forum so...
2736 2011-07-07 17:08:48 p0s is now known as p0s-
2737 2011-07-07 17:09:57 pakiaries2 has joined
2738 2011-07-07 17:10:10 <BlueMatt> Id like to wait for a response from the guy who reported the win32 doesnt work on win2000- but even if thats not solved we should probably release anyway...
2739 2011-07-07 17:10:51 pakiaries1 has joined
2740 2011-07-07 17:10:57 <pakiaries1> hi
2741 2011-07-07 17:11:21 pakiaries2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2743 2011-07-07 17:11:52 <pakiaries1> so bitcoins ay
2744 2011-07-07 17:12:00 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I was hoping for a final release tomorrow, barring regressions/bugs
2745 2011-07-07 17:12:08 <jgarzik> tcatm: ^^
2746 2011-07-07 17:12:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: sounds good to me
2747 2011-07-07 17:12:24 pakiaries2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2751 2011-07-07 17:13:27 <dikidera> jgarzik:would you add a target check before sending work to bitcoin?
2752 2011-07-07 17:13:40 <BlueMatt> wtf does that mean?
2753 2011-07-07 17:13:45 <dikidera> if hash > target { return;}
2754 2011-07-07 17:13:50 enquirer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2755 2011-07-07 17:13:55 <BlueMatt> oh in pushpool
2756 2011-07-07 17:13:57 <dikidera> no
2757 2011-07-07 17:13:59 <dikidera> in cgminer
2758 2011-07-07 17:14:06 <BlueMatt> well or that
2759 2011-07-07 17:14:13 <jgarzik> dikidera: ask conman, he maintains cgminer
2760 2011-07-07 17:14:16 <BlueMatt> s/cg/cpu/
2761 2011-07-07 17:14:27 <BlueMatt> oh a different miner god
2762 2011-07-07 17:14:47 <dikidera> matt:cgminer includes gpu support
2763 2011-07-07 17:14:51 <dikidera> and is cool to tweak
2764 2011-07-07 17:15:06 <BlueMatt> meh whatever we already have a billion and a half miners
2765 2011-07-07 17:15:23 <dikidera> not in C we dont
2766 2011-07-07 17:15:32 <BlueMatt> so?
2767 2011-07-07 17:15:42 <BlueMatt> for gpu mining language the client was written in really doesnt matter
2768 2011-07-07 17:15:42 <dikidera> so...python sucks and i barely understand it
2769 2011-07-07 17:15:45 <dikidera> C, much better
2770 2011-07-07 17:15:56 <BlueMatt> them are fighting words right there
2771 2011-07-07 17:16:17 <erus`> i hate all __this___() crap in python
2772 2011-07-07 17:16:20 <dikidera> also the way the other miners are written, you can't change a damn thing
2773 2011-07-07 17:16:22 <erus`> otherwise its nice
2774 2011-07-07 17:16:26 <dikidera> with cgminer, it gives you options
2775 2011-07-07 17:16:29 pakiaries2 has joined
2776 2011-07-07 17:16:48 <BlueMatt> you can change a ton of shit on all the miners I know
2777 2011-07-07 17:17:26 <dikidera> i dont understand python..too hard and nothing to do with what i know from PHP, and php is written in C, thus the similarities thus i better understand it
2778 2011-07-07 17:20:28 <BlueMatt> php being written in c has nothing to do with what you did/didnt lean by learning php
2779 2011-07-07 17:20:33 <dikidera> it has
2780 2011-07-07 17:20:36 <dikidera> for me at least
2781 2011-07-07 17:20:38 <BlueMatt> lol ok
2782 2011-07-07 17:20:41 SecretSJ has joined
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2784 2011-07-07 17:21:45 kreal- has joined
2785 2011-07-07 17:22:01 <erus`> :|
2786 2011-07-07 17:22:30 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2787 2011-07-07 17:22:30 <Theo`> dikidera: python is also written in C
2788 2011-07-07 17:22:37 <Theo`> well the interpreter is
2789 2011-07-07 17:22:49 <dikidera> doesnt look very C to me
2790 2011-07-07 17:22:53 <dikidera> especially them loops
2791 2011-07-07 17:22:55 <BlueMatt> just like the interpreter of php is written in c
2792 2011-07-07 17:22:58 <dikidera> and this self crap
2793 2011-07-07 17:23:17 <BlueMatt> php being written in c == python being written in c
2794 2011-07-07 17:23:30 <Theo`> that's because there's no relation between the language and the language in which the interpreter is written
2795 2011-07-07 17:23:31 <dikidera> python has nothing to do with c the way i see it
2796 2011-07-07 17:23:35 <dikidera> the code is totally different
2797 2011-07-07 17:23:37 <BlueMatt> interpreter language has nothing to do with the language
2798 2011-07-07 17:23:47 <BlueMatt> same with php
2799 2011-07-07 17:23:51 <BlueMatt> php has nothing to do with c
2800 2011-07-07 17:24:07 Katapult has joined
2801 2011-07-07 17:24:26 <dikidera> the language is almost visually the same with c
2802 2011-07-07 17:24:31 <dikidera> easy to write...
2803 2011-07-07 17:24:32 <BlueMatt> lol ok
2804 2011-07-07 17:24:55 <BlueMatt> visuals have nothing to do with how you program just the keys you hit
2805 2011-07-07 17:25:26 <dikidera> it has...for an example, the font as well
2806 2011-07-07 17:25:34 <BlueMatt> the font?????
2807 2011-07-07 17:25:45 <dikidera> this is purely something of my own
2808 2011-07-07 17:25:46 <BlueMatt> you know you can program in whatever the hell you want, its just plaintext, all three of them
2809 2011-07-07 17:25:55 <dikidera> i can't read code if it's not in notepad++
2810 2011-07-07 17:26:02 <BlueMatt> oh god
2811 2011-07-07 17:26:17 <BlueMatt> then you probably shouldnt be coding anyway
2812 2011-07-07 17:26:34 <Titeuf_87> You can program python in notepad++, or c, or php, or (almost) any language really.
2813 2011-07-07 17:26:55 <dikidera> yeah...sorry, the colors of python in notepad++ are ugly
2814 2011-07-07 17:27:01 <dikidera> i can change them
2815 2011-07-07 17:27:04 <dikidera> but it's not the same
2816 2011-07-07 17:27:22 <BlueMatt> you cant code in a language because the colors look bad???
2817 2011-07-07 17:28:14 <dikidera> i can't follow the code if it's not in those colors..
2818 2011-07-07 17:28:25 <dikidera> i've tried using kate in linux...i barely was able to write a line
2819 2011-07-07 17:28:29 <dikidera> i couldnt read the code
2820 2011-07-07 17:28:29 <BlueMatt> then you probably shouldnt be coding...
2821 2011-07-07 17:28:34 <BlueMatt> esp not in c
2822 2011-07-07 17:28:40 <K_F> :)
2823 2011-07-07 17:28:46 <K_F> seconded
2824 2011-07-07 17:29:38 <BlueMatt> dikidera: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/
2825 2011-07-07 17:29:46 slux has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2826 2011-07-07 17:29:48 <BlueMatt> have fun
2827 2011-07-07 17:30:08 <dikidera> but i dont like python
2828 2011-07-07 17:30:14 <dikidera> not just because of the colors
2829 2011-07-07 17:30:15 <erus`> is that anon marketplace still offline?
2830 2011-07-07 17:30:18 <dikidera> but cause of many things
2831 2011-07-07 17:30:20 <erus`> where they sell the drugs
2832 2011-07-07 17:30:33 <BlueMatt> erus`: we dont discuss that here ;)
2833 2011-07-07 17:30:38 <K_F> I've always found http://www.mindprod.com/jgloss/unmain.html to be superb help as well
2834 2011-07-07 17:31:10 <erus`> did it hit the growth rate when it shut down?
2835 2011-07-07 17:31:38 <dikidera> i've tried reading from books and from websites..it's not the same as is with trial and error
2836 2011-07-07 17:32:01 <b4epoche> this conversation is classic
2837 2011-07-07 17:32:04 <erus`> dikidera: search the google python tutorial videos on youtube
2838 2011-07-07 17:32:19 <erus`> they are really god
2839 2011-07-07 17:32:55 <dikidera> when i read/watch about programming..my brain shuts down that instant...it refuses to learn that...unless i do it myself
2840 2011-07-07 17:33:13 <erus`> dikidera: you have adhd
2841 2011-07-07 17:33:26 <erus`> has anyone got the google go compiler installed?
2842 2011-07-07 17:33:37 freakazoid has joined
2843 2011-07-07 17:33:38 <erus`> can you test my bitcoin rpc code please :D
2844 2011-07-07 17:34:02 <erus`> I have tested on windows so if your running anything else then please test
2845 2011-07-07 17:34:11 torsthaldo has joined
2846 2011-07-07 17:34:24 <sacarlson> dikidera: well then you should join us we are the trial and error group of MultiCoin
2847 2011-07-07 17:34:59 <dikidera> it's not like i don't believe something is wrong...i just can't learn things the normal way.
2848 2011-07-07 17:35:28 <sacarlson> dikidera: that's what we do we tinker and try stuf
2849 2011-07-07 17:35:41 sabalaba has joined
2850 2011-07-07 17:35:56 <sacarlson> only way to learn it to try and change things
2851 2011-07-07 17:37:20 <AlonzoTG> erus: I'm working on my own codebase too.
2852 2011-07-07 17:37:24 <AlonzoTG> maybe we can swap files.
2853 2011-07-07 17:37:35 <sacarlson> AlonzoTG: mine are open
2854 2011-07-07 17:38:10 <sacarlson> AlonzoTG: I put mine at V
2855 2011-07-07 17:38:12 <sacarlson> https://github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin
2856 2011-07-07 17:39:03 <sacarlson> I'm looking for alternate chain methods to make smaller networks secure
2857 2011-07-07 17:40:05 <sacarlson> I'm also interested in people that would like to help merge us into bitcoin-qt
2858 2011-07-07 17:40:42 <luke-jr> so anyhow
2859 2011-07-07 17:41:04 <luke-jr> I want to store share targets
2860 2011-07-07 17:41:22 <luke-jr> bits seems ideal, except for the FF padding
2861 2011-07-07 17:41:52 <luke-jr> sacarlson: is MultiCoin a fork of the Satoshi client?
2862 2011-07-07 17:42:09 <sacarlson> luke-jr yes very close to bitcoin at this time
2863 2011-07-07 17:42:21 <luke-jr> sacarlson: but is it a fork? or just a branch?
2864 2011-07-07 17:42:32 <luke-jr> ie, is the intent to get this mainlined or be a better client?
2865 2011-07-07 17:42:35 <sacarlson> luke-jr I'm not sure what's the diference?
2866 2011-07-07 17:42:43 <luke-jr> mainlined = just a branch
2867 2011-07-07 17:42:45 <sacarlson> I try to keep it synced
2868 2011-07-07 17:43:08 <snowing> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22585.120 "my current secret project will make all mining pools obsolete" ?
2869 2011-07-07 17:43:19 <sacarlson> but I keep other things active as in groffer's escrow
2870 2011-07-07 17:43:23 grn_werk has joined
2871 2011-07-07 17:43:37 <sacarlson> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.0  mine is here
2872 2011-07-07 17:43:44 <luke-jr> sacarlson: got integer JSON-RPC yet? :P
2873 2011-07-07 17:43:59 <sacarlson> luke-jr I don't think so
2874 2011-07-07 17:44:04 <luke-jr> ugh, this code looks ugly
2875 2011-07-07 17:44:23 <sacarlson> luke-jr I never said I was a good programer
2876 2011-07-07 17:44:33 <luke-jr> #Subsidy value is what is paid when a new block is found default is 50 and pre inflation block rate if custom_inflation set
2877 2011-07-07 17:44:40 <luke-jr> sacarlson: default/mainnet should be 5000000000
2878 2011-07-07 17:44:44 dbasch has quit (Quit: dbasch)
2879 2011-07-07 17:44:59 <sacarlson> luke-jr it's in coin value
2880 2011-07-07 17:45:15 grn_werk has left ()
2881 2011-07-07 17:45:15 <sacarlson> I can't count that many zeerrooooos
2882 2011-07-07 17:45:17 <luke-jr> sacarlson: nothing code-related should be using human-facing values
2883 2011-07-07 17:45:19 SlipperySlope has left ()
2884 2011-07-07 17:45:20 <luke-jr> # set MAX_MONEY that can be created by minners, limit seems to be no smaller than 50 no biger than 21mil?
2885 2011-07-07 17:45:24 <luke-jr> that's a calculation, not a constant
2886 2011-07-07 17:45:40 <sacarlson> luke-jr I beleave in human readable
2887 2011-07-07 17:45:52 <luke-jr> sacarlson: I believe in doing it right :p
2888 2011-07-07 17:45:56 <sacarlson> luke-jr but you can add options that will do both
2889 2011-07-07 17:46:26 <sacarlson> luke-jr I beleave in haveing every option that no one will ever use
2890 2011-07-07 17:46:55 <sacarlson> if you want to put in integers then add another api to do so
2891 2011-07-07 17:47:11 <luke-jr> sacarlson: enjoy http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/shortlog/refs/heads/bitcoinuri
2892 2011-07-07 17:48:21 <sacarlson> luke-jr so witch one can do multi currency?
2893 2011-07-07 17:48:37 <luke-jr> …
2894 2011-07-07 17:48:48 <sacarlson> luke-jr or a feature I should add?
2895 2011-07-07 17:49:09 <luke-jr> sacarlson: it enables people to click bitcoin: URIs and open a send dialog
2896 2011-07-07 17:49:12 <sacarlson> or a group if you like that would be usefull in this case
2897 2011-07-07 17:49:39 <sacarlson> luke-jr and what comitish might that be?
2898 2011-07-07 17:49:49 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: or a more fully implemented one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/182
2899 2011-07-07 17:50:18 estornudo has joined
2900 2011-07-07 17:50:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, that one is BROKEn
2901 2011-07-07 17:50:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: mine is 100% implemented *correctly*
2902 2011-07-07 17:50:54 <BlueMatt> except it doesnt open right if bitcoin is already open, and it uses multiple programs, which is kinda ugly
2903 2011-07-07 17:51:00 <luke-jr> yes it does
2904 2011-07-07 17:51:08 <luke-jr> and using multiple binaries is better
2905 2011-07-07 17:51:27 <BlueMatt> oh and theres the whole the community voted against your version when you posted a highly biased poll in your favor thing...
2906 2011-07-07 17:51:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nonsense
2907 2011-07-07 17:51:52 <sacarlson> luke-jr sorry the link that discribs it is broken from here what is  URIs in bitcoin
2908 2011-07-07 17:52:37 <sacarlson> again this link https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6205.0 is broken for me
2909 2011-07-07 17:52:58 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: remove the https and you are good
2910 2011-07-07 17:53:04 <sacarlson> ok
2911 2011-07-07 17:53:05 <luke-jr> sacarlson: the correct branch is http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/shortlog/refs/heads/bitcoinuri
2912 2011-07-07 17:53:35 zamgo has joined
2913 2011-07-07 17:53:44 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: and that link kind of sums up the reasons why luke's branch is pretty much wrong...
2914 2011-07-07 17:54:06 <sacarlson> BlueMatt ok thanks
2915 2011-07-07 17:54:06 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: stfu with the bigotry, k thx
2916 2011-07-07 17:54:23 <sacarlson> and it is now readable
2917 2011-07-07 17:54:47 TiggrBot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2918 2011-07-07 17:54:52 Daviey has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2919 2011-07-07 17:55:03 <denisx> luke-jr: you are using the pollpidfile patch, right?
2920 2011-07-07 17:55:05 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2921 2011-07-07 17:56:22 <luke-jr> sacarlson: basically, all those polls show is that out of 12 people who bothered with them, 6 are bigots
2922 2011-07-07 17:56:54 MrTiggr has joined
2923 2011-07-07 17:57:23 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: not everyone wants convoluted standards designed to support tonal aka one person
2924 2011-07-07 17:57:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it isn't designed to support Tonal, so stfu with bigotry
2925 2011-07-07 17:57:56 <BlueMatt> you have yet to show a reason for hex in there
2926 2011-07-07 17:58:09 <copumpkin> nerdwars!
2927 2011-07-07 17:58:12 <BlueMatt> who the hell counts money in hex aside from tonal?
2928 2011-07-07 17:58:13 <sacarlson> luke-jr I assume the only thing of value in that was BitterTea explaination
2929 2011-07-07 17:58:29 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: prefer having 0x100 coins than 100 coins
2930 2011-07-07 17:58:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: thanks for exemplifying your bigotry
2931 2011-07-07 17:58:39 p0s- is now known as p0s
2932 2011-07-07 17:58:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: lol ok
2933 2011-07-07 17:58:51 lorenzoIT has joined
2934 2011-07-07 17:58:53 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: until you realize that you have less...
2935 2011-07-07 17:59:20 <sacarlson> luke-jr and as such it just that you can enter values in different formats,  as long as it didn't cause any effect on already running apps,  but I personaly don't see much value in it
2936 2011-07-07 17:59:45 <luke-jr> sacarlson: ?
2937 2011-07-07 17:59:46 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2938 2011-07-07 17:59:51 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  less?
2939 2011-07-07 18:00:07 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: 0x100 != 100
2940 2011-07-07 18:00:15 <sacarlson> I'm more into more outside stuf like escrow
2941 2011-07-07 18:00:37 <luke-jr> anyhow
2942 2011-07-07 18:00:45 <luke-jr> what I came here to discuss was a different topic
2943 2011-07-07 18:00:47 <luke-jr> bits
2944 2011-07-07 18:00:57 <luke-jr> and how to store easy difficulties
2945 2011-07-07 18:00:58 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  0x100 = 256 > 100
2946 2011-07-07 18:00:59 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2947 2011-07-07 18:01:20 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yep thats my point if you have 100, you have less than 0x100
2948 2011-07-07 18:01:52 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2949 2011-07-07 18:01:57 <b4epoche> I think copumpkin was saying he'd prefer 0x100 than 100
2950 2011-07-07 18:02:09 mtrlt has joined
2951 2011-07-07 18:02:11 <BlueMatt> yep, if he uses hex, he has less than 0x100
2952 2011-07-07 18:02:28 * copumpkin sighs
2953 2011-07-07 18:02:32 <BlueMatt> "prefer having 0x100 coins than 100 coins" aka "I wish I had more than 100"
2954 2011-07-07 18:02:35 <BlueMatt> not hard here
2955 2011-07-07 18:02:37 <copumpkin> yes
2956 2011-07-07 18:02:40 <copumpkin> what I was sayin
2957 2011-07-07 18:02:48 <copumpkin> is that I'd prefer to have 256 coins instead of 100
2958 2011-07-07 18:03:20 <b4epoche> copumpkin:  I know ;-)
2959 2011-07-07 18:03:27 * b4epoche gets copumpkin 
2960 2011-07-07 18:03:32 <luke-jr> once again, bigotry prevents accomplishing anything
2961 2011-07-07 18:03:47 <copumpkin> base 9 is clearly the best though
2962 2011-07-07 18:03:49 <b4epoche> I think luke-jr has BlueMatt flustered ;-)
2963 2011-07-07 18:03:53 * luke-jr goes back to #Eligius
2964 2011-07-07 18:03:55 <copumpkin> myanmar had it right
2965 2011-07-07 18:04:01 <BlueMatt> once again, luke-jr's random comments make no sense and prevent anyone from doing anything useful
2966 2011-07-07 18:04:08 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: lol ok
2967 2011-07-07 18:04:26 <copumpkin> b4epoche gets me
2968 2011-07-07 18:04:42 <BlueMatt> I prefer base 16, but not the regular units everyone else uses, I prefer to have my own digits
2969 2011-07-07 18:04:49 <BlueMatt> well hexits
2970 2011-07-07 18:05:03 Pinion has quit (Quit: Has quit)
2971 2011-07-07 18:05:17 p0s is now known as p0s-
2972 2011-07-07 18:05:28 <sacarlson> I'm also more interested in the qt lib support,  how far are we from this or is that even a goal?
2973 2011-07-07 18:05:47 <BlueMatt> someone wrote it
2974 2011-07-07 18:05:56 <sacarlson> ya and I love it
2975 2011-07-07 18:05:57 <BlueMatt> but it was to be delayed for autotools merge first
2976 2011-07-07 18:06:00 pyro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2977 2011-07-07 18:06:06 <BlueMatt> but since autotools kinda died well...
2978 2011-07-07 18:06:28 <sacarlson> so use *.pro? that's what qt uses
2979 2011-07-07 18:06:46 <BlueMatt> .pro?
2980 2011-07-07 18:07:00 <sacarlson> that's there build or like make file
2981 2011-07-07 18:07:03 sipa has joined
2982 2011-07-07 18:07:05 koleg has joined
2983 2011-07-07 18:07:06 <BlueMatt> cmake
2984 2011-07-07 18:07:19 <BlueMatt> there is a long discussion on that ongoing on the mailing list
2985 2011-07-07 18:07:19 <luke-jr> autotools died?
2986 2011-07-07 18:07:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not really that long
2987 2011-07-07 18:07:40 <sacarlson> I just bring up qtcreator and select the *.pro file and it builds in I guess any platform
2988 2011-07-07 18:08:09 <luke-jr> sacarlson: qmake files have limited functionality, unfortunately
2989 2011-07-07 18:08:18 <BlueMatt> well the guy who was writing it reverted some changes that had made it work on some platforms and never bothered to update it when people kept saying this or that is wrong
2990 2011-07-07 18:08:28 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: there is quite a discussion on the list about it...
2991 2011-07-07 18:08:39 <sacarlson> I'm not sure the *.pro file is a qmake file or what,  I'm not an expert at it
2992 2011-07-07 18:08:41 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2993 2011-07-07 18:08:42 <BlueMatt> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development
2994 2011-07-07 18:08:47 freakazoid has joined
2995 2011-07-07 18:08:49 <BlueMatt> it is iirc
2996 2011-07-07 18:08:59 <BlueMatt> see http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CAJNQ0suRgnFVJ86drAj0xciEgn9LrnTAkfHf39M9vp9ER0NkoA%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
2997 2011-07-07 18:09:32 <sacarlson> but I do like there gui and I have all the libs for it to run in ubuntu, and it's what firefox is running in
2998 2011-07-07 18:09:44 kluge has joined
2999 2011-07-07 18:09:49 hahuang65 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3000 2011-07-07 18:09:50 <BlueMatt> you mean their interface creation gui?
3001 2011-07-07 18:09:56 <sacarlson> yes
3002 2011-07-07 18:10:04 <sipa> i'm sure you can use that without qmake
3003 2011-07-07 18:10:06 <sacarlson> well there gui in general
3004 2011-07-07 18:10:07 <BlueMatt> the wxformbuilder bitcoin uses actually is not bad at all
3005 2011-07-07 18:10:36 <BlueMatt> I have no problem using it, but others know qt more and thus we will switch eventually
3006 2011-07-07 18:10:49 koleg has quit (3!kvirc@79.133.157.107|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3007 2011-07-07 18:10:53 Daviey has joined
3008 2011-07-07 18:10:54 <sacarlson> BlueMatt maybe so if the libs were at easy access to the ubuntu and others without compiling stuf
3009 2011-07-07 18:10:56 josephholsten has quit (Quit: josephholsten)
3010 2011-07-07 18:11:11 <BlueMatt> they are, satoshi just (stupidly) decided to use a development version
3011 2011-07-07 18:11:19 <BlueMatt> the wx libs are very readily available
3012 2011-07-07 18:11:23 <BlueMatt> just not 2.9
3013 2011-07-07 18:11:45 <sacarlson> BlueMatt was it a windows thing?  maybe wx is better in windows?
3014 2011-07-07 18:11:53 <BlueMatt> no
3015 2011-07-07 18:11:59 <luke-jr> sacarlson: Firefox isn't Qt
3016 2011-07-07 18:12:05 <BlueMatt> windowing toolkit is really a personal preference
3017 2011-07-07 18:12:16 <sacarlson> luke-jr what is firefox then?
3018 2011-07-07 18:12:17 AStove has joined
3019 2011-07-07 18:12:31 <copumpkin> XUUL
3020 2011-07-07 18:12:33 <luke-jr> sacarlson: basically custom
3021 2011-07-07 18:12:46 <luke-jr> XUL, but practically only Firefox is XUL
3022 2011-07-07 18:13:07 <sipa> i don't care whether we use autotools or cmake or qmake or a f*cking custom-written shell script, as long as it works on all our supported platforms, and someone active wants to write and maintain it
3023 2011-07-07 18:13:28 <sacarlson> BlueMatt well I guess when the libs become separate that the gui weather it be qt or wx or ?? wouldn't mater
3024 2011-07-07 18:13:32 <Diablo-D3> there is only XUL?
3025 2011-07-07 18:13:34 <sipa> autotools was fine for me, but if the person who wrote it disappears, there is a problem
3026 2011-07-07 18:13:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: totally
3027 2011-07-07 18:13:46 <senseles> Is anyone currently using pushpoold? How do you tell the cumaltive hash/s ?
3028 2011-07-07 18:14:05 <sipa> senseles: you could each share as 2^32 hashes
3029 2011-07-07 18:14:11 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: yea its a religious war, they both work fine imo
3030 2011-07-07 18:14:30 <sacarlson> BlueMatt wow sorry to cause such a termoil
3031 2011-07-07 18:14:56 <BlueMatt> well I dont think there is anyone here who really likes wx
3032 2011-07-07 18:15:01 <sacarlson> but I want to keep the bitcoin I find here in sync with the bitcoin-qt some how
3033 2011-07-07 18:15:05 <BlueMatt> a few who like qt and many who dont give a fuck
3034 2011-07-07 18:15:15 <sipa> sacarlson: for your alternate chains, which version bytes do you use?
3035 2011-07-07 18:15:28 <sipa> in addresses
3036 2011-07-07 18:15:28 <senseles> i think im coming in late in the conversation but; what's wrong with make?
3037 2011-07-07 18:15:40 <sacarlson> sipa: version bytes?
3038 2011-07-07 18:15:45 <BlueMatt> senseles: its dumb when you move from one platform to another
3039 2011-07-07 18:15:48 <sacarlson> sipa: for the address?
3040 2011-07-07 18:15:51 <sipa> sacarlson: yes
3041 2011-07-07 18:16:03 <sipa> the first byte after base58 decoding
3042 2011-07-07 18:16:05 <sacarlson> sipa: I setup groupcoin with 244
3043 2011-07-07 18:16:06 hahuang65 has joined
3044 2011-07-07 18:16:33 <sipa> sacarlson: and beertokens and weeds?
3045 2011-07-07 18:16:49 <sipa> or don't those exist anymore?
3046 2011-07-07 18:17:11 <sacarlson> sipa: I plan to create a text header that will be beyond 0 - 255 I guess I will select on of them to be used as needing a header such as USD_ or BEER_
3047 2011-07-07 18:17:12 pakiaries2 has joined
3048 2011-07-07 18:17:16 <pakiaries2> hello
3049 2011-07-07 18:17:34 <sipa> sacarlson: i wrote a proposal for standardizing those version bytes in a mail to the mailing list
3050 2011-07-07 18:17:57 <sacarlson> sipa:  weeds I didn't select one I just used the testnet number as I didn't know at that time about the 0 - 255 header
3051 2011-07-07 18:18:00 <pakiaries2> yea
3052 2011-07-07 18:18:09 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: are you on the list?
3053 2011-07-07 18:18:21 <pakiaries2> larry
3054 2011-07-07 18:18:23 <sipa> it fixes bit 16 (which is set in namecoin's 52, and apparently groupcoin(?)'s 244) for alternate chains
3055 2011-07-07 18:18:25 <sacarlson> sipa: BlueMatt: I've not seen it
3056 2011-07-07 18:18:45 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: you probably should subscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/options/bitcoin-development
3057 2011-07-07 18:18:54 <BlueMatt> sorry, should be https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
3058 2011-07-07 18:18:58 superman2012 has joined
3059 2011-07-07 18:19:05 <pakiaries2> hi yaal
3060 2011-07-07 18:19:08 <sacarlson> BlueMatt ok
3061 2011-07-07 18:19:49 slux has joined
3062 2011-07-07 18:19:58 <sacarlson> sipa: I prefer links to this proposal if you have one
3063 2011-07-07 18:20:07 p0s- is now known as p0s
3064 2011-07-07 18:20:20 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20110707111557.GA5231%40ulyssis.org&forum_name=bitcoin-development
3065 2011-07-07 18:24:24 <sacarlson> BlueMatt that good to have, so set me a space for human readable as a bit or one number of 0 - 255
3066 2011-07-07 18:24:48 <sacarlson> then it become infinite
3067 2011-07-07 18:25:28 hahuang65_ has joined
3068 2011-07-07 18:25:28 <sacarlson> or should I just pick it myself, I guess the majority rules
3069 2011-07-07 18:25:37 <senseles> Is there a public supernode network yet? It seems to me that if people were to host servers that accept 1000-5000+ connections that transactions would distribute quicker. Even faster if there are multiples of these super nodes connecting to each other.
3070 2011-07-07 18:25:53 <BlueMatt> not really
3071 2011-07-07 18:26:16 <BlueMatt> first of all, to accept even a couple hundred connections you have to use a modified bitcoin
3072 2011-07-07 18:26:29 <BlueMatt> also, transactions already propagate within seconds anyway
3073 2011-07-07 18:26:30 altamic has joined
3074 2011-07-07 18:26:31 altamic has quit (Changing host)
3075 2011-07-07 18:26:31 altamic has joined
3076 2011-07-07 18:26:37 <BlueMatt> so theres not really any reason to do so
3077 2011-07-07 18:26:48 <senseles> Why is it they take hours to come through in some cases?
3078 2011-07-07 18:26:59 <senseles> I had to wait 12 hours last night for my first transaction to show up
3079 2011-07-07 18:27:03 <BlueMatt> because you didnt pay a fee on a low priority transaction
3080 2011-07-07 18:27:10 <BlueMatt> or you were doing initial block download
3081 2011-07-07 18:27:16 <BlueMatt> which always takes a long time...
3082 2011-07-07 18:27:51 <erus`> BlueMatt does every client have to dowload the entire block chain for all history?
3083 2011-07-07 18:28:03 <BlueMatt> the original client does
3084 2011-07-07 18:28:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt can't we just add some auto torrent that will feed that bit index file and such?
3085 2011-07-07 18:28:07 <erus`> and will that become an issue in the future?
3086 2011-07-07 18:28:15 <BlueMatt> that will be changed
3087 2011-07-07 18:28:23 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: you cant really do a torrent that updates like that
3088 2011-07-07 18:28:27 <BlueMatt> but I have an http one
3089 2011-07-07 18:28:31 <BlueMatt> bitcoin.bluematt.me
3090 2011-07-07 18:28:49 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3091 2011-07-07 18:29:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I do the same keep an http that I update but only tell people I like since I don't have big bandwidth
3092 2011-07-07 18:29:30 <BlueMatt> well my mirror has enough bw for plenty of people atm
3093 2011-07-07 18:29:34 MrTiggr has joined
3094 2011-07-07 18:29:36 <BlueMatt> though I would like more than one mirror...
3095 2011-07-07 18:29:39 p0s is now known as p0s-
3096 2011-07-07 18:29:48 <sacarlson> but I think I could also add some script that would auto create a torrent so as it wouldn't be a burden to me
3097 2011-07-07 18:29:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: how much bandwidth does it take?
3098 2011-07-07 18:29:58 <sipa> now?
3099 2011-07-07 18:30:07 <BlueMatt> the problem with torrents is they are for something that gets done once and never updated
3100 2011-07-07 18:30:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: I dont have exact numbers, but its maybe a couple hundred downloads a day
3101 2011-07-07 18:30:23 <sacarlson> sipa:  the files are like 500 meg total
3102 2011-07-07 18:30:39 <BlueMatt> if you did a torrent of this, you have to seed it
3103 2011-07-07 18:30:45 pakiaries2 has quit ()
3104 2011-07-07 18:30:47 <BlueMatt> and I doubt there would be many people who seed for you
3105 2011-07-07 18:30:52 pakiaries1 has quit ()
3106 2011-07-07 18:30:55 pakiaries has quit ()
3107 2011-07-07 18:31:01 <sacarlson> BlueMatt yes but seeding is much less that http
3108 2011-07-07 18:31:10 <BlueMatt> not if you are the only one seeding
3109 2011-07-07 18:31:22 <denisx> every downloader is also seeder
3110 2011-07-07 18:31:26 <BlueMatt> then its only very slightly lower
3111 2011-07-07 18:31:39 <denisx> BlueMatt: do not underestimate it
3112 2011-07-07 18:31:49 <BlueMatt> denisx: but in this case there would be only a couple downloaders at a time
3113 2011-07-07 18:31:52 <BlueMatt> like maybe one or two
3114 2011-07-07 18:31:58 <denisx> ah ok,
3115 2011-07-07 18:32:04 <BlueMatt> and I highly doubt many would seed
3116 2011-07-07 18:32:31 <sacarlson> well I know I can get a 500 meg file in less the 15 hours that it takes me now,  I would be surprized if someone like magic?? should put something into it
3117 2011-07-07 18:32:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: i have some 100 GB unused volume left at bitcoin.sipa.be
3118 2011-07-07 18:32:54 <sipa> (per month)
3119 2011-07-07 18:33:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: it would probably fit in that
3120 2011-07-07 18:33:04 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3121 2011-07-07 18:33:23 <BlueMatt> but you would have to limit to like 10 dlds per month...
3122 2011-07-07 18:33:38 <sipa> ?
3123 2011-07-07 18:33:50 <BlueMatt> well ok 100
3124 2011-07-07 18:34:08 <sipa> it's not a 1GB download, is it?
3125 2011-07-07 18:34:16 <BlueMatt> its a 295MB one currently
3126 2011-07-07 18:34:19 <BlueMatt> and going up quick
3127 2011-07-07 18:35:25 <sipa> right
3128 2011-07-07 18:35:28 <copumpkin> how will people get started ten years from now?
3129 2011-07-07 18:35:29 <sacarlson> ya I hope disk drive space gets cheaper quick
3130 2011-07-07 18:35:50 erle- has joined
3131 2011-07-07 18:35:51 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: in a couple months from now not everyone will have to dl the chain
3132 2011-07-07 18:35:54 knotwork_ is now known as knotwork
3133 2011-07-07 18:36:00 <copumpkin> oh, nice
3134 2011-07-07 18:36:09 <copumpkin> who will need to?
3135 2011-07-07 18:36:17 MetaV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3136 2011-07-07 18:36:18 <sipa> mining pools and solo miners
3137 2011-07-07 18:36:18 <BlueMatt> miners
3138 2011-07-07 18:36:21 marvin_ has joined
3139 2011-07-07 18:36:22 <copumpkin> ah
3140 2011-07-07 18:36:26 MetaV has joined
3141 2011-07-07 18:36:32 <sipa> and others who wish to support the network
3142 2011-07-07 18:36:37 <BlueMatt> and merchants probably should too
3143 2011-07-07 18:36:43 <marvin_> ;;bc,stats
3144 2011-07-07 18:36:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135196 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1891 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 20 hours, 30 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1493795.65888313
3145 2011-07-07 18:36:54 <sipa> payment processors, indeed
3146 2011-07-07 18:37:15 <sacarlson> sipa: ya and escrows will need them
3147 2011-07-07 18:37:15 <marvin_> Wow, it would be great if difficulty stablized ...
3148 2011-07-07 18:37:56 <BlueMatt> too early in the cycle for the avg to be accurate
3149 2011-07-07 18:38:17 <sipa> it'll drop further than that, i believe
3150 2011-07-07 18:38:27 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: .3.24 will fix that for the most part re: blockchain taking forever to catch up
3151 2011-07-07 18:38:37 <BlueMatt> not really
3152 2011-07-07 18:38:49 <BlueMatt> the blockchain dl limit is due to disk mostly
3153 2011-07-07 18:38:51 <jrmithdobbs> once nodes upgrade it will
3154 2011-07-07 18:38:57 sgornick has joined
3155 2011-07-07 18:38:59 <jrmithdobbs> no it's not
3156 2011-07-07 18:39:06 <sipa> well, gmaxwell's experiment was quite convincing
3157 2011-07-07 18:39:14 <sipa> half an hour instead of many hours
3158 2011-07-07 18:39:24 <sipa> if connected to a fast node
3159 2011-07-07 18:39:26 <jrmithdobbs> or it'd be significantly faster on ssd vs spinning disks, and it's not
3160 2011-07-07 18:39:27 <BlueMatt> well that is only very recent blocks is it not?
3161 2011-07-07 18:39:33 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya i saw similar results
3162 2011-07-07 18:39:49 <BlueMatt> well I plan on limiting dnsseed to 0.3.24 once release happens
3163 2011-07-07 18:39:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the like 2-6k something like that
3164 2011-07-07 18:40:01 <jrmithdobbs> s/like/last/
3165 2011-07-07 18:40:09 <BlueMatt> oh that much
3166 2011-07-07 18:40:12 <BlueMatt> hm well nvm then
3167 2011-07-07 18:40:29 <sipa> i hope we can release 0.3.24 tomorrow
3168 2011-07-07 18:40:35 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but that's the thing, if you can find a good peer you can get the whole chain up until the "problem" point in < an hour (because of verification and all)
3169 2011-07-07 18:40:44 <AlonzoTG> ok,
3170 2011-07-07 18:40:45 <sipa> so we can start pulling wallet encryption and move on
3171 2011-07-07 18:40:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: I havent seen any bug reports yet so...probebly
3172 2011-07-07 18:40:49 <BlueMatt> probably*
3173 2011-07-07 18:40:53 <copumpkin> neat: http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/index.html
3174 2011-07-07 18:41:02 <AlonzoTG> can I get a list of protocol changes? I'm implementing my own version and I need to make sure I stay compatible with the current version.
3175 2011-07-07 18:41:23 <jrmithdobbs> none
3176 2011-07-07 18:41:37 E-sense has joined
3177 2011-07-07 18:41:46 <sipa> AlonzoTG: afaik there have not been any recent protocol changes
3178 2011-07-07 18:42:00 <jrmithdobbs> AlonzoTG: and watch bitcoin-development sourceforge list as any future ones will be discussed there indepth
3179 2011-07-07 18:42:12 <AlonzoTG> k
3180 2011-07-07 18:42:16 <AlonzoTG> I'll go look for that list.
3181 2011-07-07 18:42:33 <sipa> https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=244765
3182 2011-07-07 18:42:39 <copumpkin> maybe in the next cryptocurrency, we can use that signature scheme :)
3183 2011-07-07 18:42:51 <copumpkin> it's interesting that it can do batches of signatures more efficiently
3184 2011-07-07 18:42:56 <copumpkin> (verifications)
3185 2011-07-07 18:42:57 <sipa> indeed
3186 2011-07-07 18:43:06 jivvz has joined
3187 2011-07-07 18:43:18 <sacarlson> AlonzoTG: if you want to change some you now have the option in my configs in Multicoin to detect or deiscriminate different string headers
3188 2011-07-07 18:43:33 EPiSKiNG has joined
3189 2011-07-07 18:43:44 <BlueMatt> there are also some optimizations that can be done on bitcoin's verification because of the curve used
3190 2011-07-07 18:43:51 <BlueMatt> that arent done in ossl
3191 2011-07-07 18:44:04 <b4epoche> okay, why did UI stuff get moved into wallet.cpp?
3192 2011-07-07 18:44:05 <sipa> and those are probably patented
3193 2011-07-07 18:44:16 <sipa> there is no UI stuff in wallet.cpp
3194 2011-07-07 18:44:18 <BlueMatt> well that does pose a problem...
3195 2011-07-07 18:44:26 <b4epoche>     if (fAskFee && !ThreadSafeAskFee(nFeeRequired, _("Sending..."), NULL))
3196 2011-07-07 18:44:27 <BlueMatt> but its still possible
3197 2011-07-07 18:44:39 <BlueMatt> plus you could probably get the patent invalidated...math cant be patented
3198 2011-07-07 18:44:47 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3199 2011-07-07 18:44:56 <erus`> write anything in haskell and it cant be patented :)
3200 2011-07-07 18:45:04 <BlueMatt> lol
3201 2011-07-07 18:45:08 <copumpkin> not sure about that :P
3202 2011-07-07 18:45:21 <copumpkin> patenting isn't about logic, it's about clueless patent reviewers :)
3203 2011-07-07 18:45:22 * b4epoche is going to have to hack around that...
3204 2011-07-07 18:45:37 <sipa> b4epoche: right, legacy stuff
3205 2011-07-07 18:45:39 <copumpkin> omgwtfhax
3206 2011-07-07 18:46:10 <erus`> you guys need to come up with a workaround for the irc bootsrap stuff quickly
3207 2011-07-07 18:46:17 <BlueMatt> done
3208 2011-07-07 18:46:26 <BlueMatt> that quick enough?
3209 2011-07-07 18:46:36 <erus`> is it completely decentralized ?
3210 2011-07-07 18:46:39 <sipa> no
3211 2011-07-07 18:46:43 <erus`> like magnet links
3212 2011-07-07 18:46:57 <BlueMatt> bootstrap methods, by definition cant be decentralized
3213 2011-07-07 18:47:01 <sacarlson> erus`: they added the -dns option that should work most the time instead of IRC to addnode
3214 2011-07-07 18:47:01 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3215 2011-07-07 18:47:06 <sipa> you still need to bootstrap somewhere if you want to connect to a DHT that provides magnet links
3216 2011-07-07 18:47:14 <BlueMatt> you realize magnet links connect to a different p2p net first, which also needs bootstrapped
3217 2011-07-07 18:47:42 <BlueMatt> p2p cant be used to bootstrap p2p because it, too, will need bootstrapped
3218 2011-07-07 18:47:55 <erus`> just spam out requests
3219 2011-07-07 18:47:59 <erus`> till someone responds
3220 2011-07-07 18:48:01 <BlueMatt> lol ok
3221 2011-07-07 18:48:02 <sipa> lol
3222 2011-07-07 18:48:21 <BlueMatt> lets scan every possible ipv4 for bitcoin and then move to ipv6 too
3223 2011-07-07 18:48:31 <sipa> b4epoche: i hope to have that line removed soon
3224 2011-07-07 18:48:50 <erus`> maybe some easy way to connect to a directory server
3225 2011-07-07 18:48:51 <sipa> not sure how wumpus avoided it
3226 2011-07-07 18:48:59 <sipa> like... a DNS server?
3227 2011-07-07 18:49:04 <erus`> so if it goes down you can change it and get loads of nodes
3228 2011-07-07 18:49:10 <sacarlson> erus`:  they have like 300 or more hardcoded ip address plus now like 0 - 99 IRC plus -dns addnode...  at some point multicast should be added with ipv6
3229 2011-07-07 18:49:10 <erus`> then you dont need one anymore
3230 2011-07-07 18:49:33 <BlueMatt> none of that is decentralized, but dns is close to
3231 2011-07-07 18:49:35 marvin_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3232 2011-07-07 18:49:37 <BlueMatt> so...
3233 2011-07-07 18:49:51 lorenzoIT has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3234 2011-07-07 18:50:15 <b4epoche> sipa:  great...
3235 2011-07-07 18:50:28 <b4epoche> I think I figured out how to work around it in the mean time...
3236 2011-07-07 18:50:39 b4epoche is now known as b4_gone
3237 2011-07-07 18:50:49 <sacarlson> dns works find for my small networks and if you have like 3 or more you should be set.  how many do like banks have?
3238 2011-07-07 18:51:08 <copumpkin> http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/python/ed25519.py nice
3239 2011-07-07 18:51:22 <copumpkin> that's the whole signature scheme
3240 2011-07-07 18:51:28 b4epoche has joined
3241 2011-07-07 18:53:01 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3242 2011-07-07 18:53:14 <sipa> copumpkin: damn
3243 2011-07-07 18:54:14 sacredchao has joined
3244 2011-07-07 18:54:32 b4epoche has quit (Client Quit)
3245 2011-07-07 18:54:32 b4_gone is now known as b4epoche
3246 2011-07-07 18:54:59 DukeOfURL has joined
3247 2011-07-07 18:55:57 warpi has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
3248 2011-07-07 18:56:26 <senseles> bluematt: use ipv6 broadcast to send the packet to the entire internet
3249 2011-07-07 18:56:27 <senseles> heh
3250 2011-07-07 18:57:01 <sipa> is that actually implemented somewhere?
3251 2011-07-07 18:57:04 num1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3252 2011-07-07 18:57:09 <senseles> i think it's limited to subnets
3253 2011-07-07 18:57:12 <sipa> global ipv6 multicast
3254 2011-07-07 18:57:15 <senseles> i doubt it's possible globally
3255 2011-07-07 18:57:20 <Diablo-D3> the internet wont route multicast.
3256 2011-07-07 18:57:27 <nidefawl_> "the entire internet" lol
3257 2011-07-07 18:57:38 <nidefawl_> ddos-net ftw
3258 2011-07-07 18:57:45 <sipa> multicast is not the same as broadcasrt
3259 2011-07-07 18:57:56 <BlueMatt> its in the standard, but its not implemented very much
3260 2011-07-07 18:58:09 <Diablo-D3> [02:54:46] <sipa> global ipv6 multicast
3261 2011-07-07 18:59:14 <senseles> you could do multicast having several machines around the world respond to the same ip
3262 2011-07-07 18:59:36 <sipa> that is exactly what multicast is
3263 2011-07-07 18:59:57 <senseles> but that would be somewhat centralized.. there could be multiple providers but still..
3264 2011-07-07 19:00:01 folklore has joined
3265 2011-07-07 19:00:04 <sacarlson> ya multicast will be the final solution
3266 2011-07-07 19:00:13 <sacarlson> nothing will stop that
3267 2011-07-07 19:00:26 <senseles> uplinks have to support it
3268 2011-07-07 19:00:30 <senseles> if your uplinks go it dies
3269 2011-07-07 19:01:13 rate4 has joined
3270 2011-07-07 19:01:19 <sacarlson> senseles: I guess your ISP has to support it but it's a part of the IPV6 protocal so I assume we will all have it at some point
3271 2011-07-07 19:01:31 <BlueMatt> no, isps arent bothering
3272 2011-07-07 19:01:39 <BlueMatt> should is the keyword here
3273 2011-07-07 19:01:44 <senseles> multicast is done via bgp as far as im aware
3274 2011-07-07 19:02:05 <BlueMatt> not that kind of multicast
3275 2011-07-07 19:02:11 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I thought we would be out of ipv4 address by 2012 so at some point soon there will be presure
3276 2011-07-07 19:02:25 <senseles> IP addresses are already exhausted
3277 2011-07-07 19:02:30 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, we will move to ipv6, but not ipv6 multicast
3278 2011-07-07 19:02:31 <senseles> softlayer increased their IP pricing by 0.50 :(
3279 2011-07-07 19:02:42 <BlueMatt> isps should support multicast on ipv6, but its not really happening...
3280 2011-07-07 19:02:56 <BlueMatt> or, I suppose more accurately put, support is limited
3281 2011-07-07 19:02:59 <senseles> multicast on ipv6 should be the same as ipv4 no?
3282 2011-07-07 19:03:05 <sacarlson> BlueMatt such a pesimist like people won't want to have video feed over IP?
3283 2011-07-07 19:03:11 <K_F> I would expect broadcasting companies will fight for multicast, just think of the benefits for TV streaming
3284 2011-07-07 19:03:30 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: there is a difference between that and isps actually implementing it on their routers
3285 2011-07-07 19:03:36 <BlueMatt> senseles: no
3286 2011-07-07 19:03:51 <BlueMatt> K_F: quite the opposite, they want their crazy drm
3287 2011-07-07 19:04:04 <BlueMatt> and dont want to move to ip distribution
3288 2011-07-07 19:04:08 <BlueMatt> they want to keep their cable
3289 2011-07-07 19:04:17 <sacarlson> BlueMatt well I still have hope but only time will tell, and my contry here in thailand will be the last to get it anyway
3290 2011-07-07 19:04:38 <BlueMatt> really? I thought thailand had fairly good internet infrastructure
3291 2011-07-07 19:05:16 cdecker has joined
3292 2011-07-07 19:05:18 <sacarlson> BlueMatt what is good? I now have 900kB/sec and that's as fast as I can buy here
3293 2011-07-07 19:05:28 <K_F> BlueMatt: I agree for on-demand stuff, but not necessarily for their live streaming, they would probably use a shared key for that
3294 2011-07-07 19:06:01 <K_F> e.g. PKI on each box and send an encrypted session key for the transmission
3295 2011-07-07 19:06:03 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: really, damn
3296 2011-07-07 19:06:16 <BlueMatt> K_F: lol ok, no they wont
3297 2011-07-07 19:06:26 <BlueMatt> they are deathly afraid of the internet to begin with
3298 2011-07-07 19:06:31 <K_F> too true
3299 2011-07-07 19:06:37 <senseles> just wait for all the execs to die
3300 2011-07-07 19:06:38 <BlueMatt> putting it over ip instead of cable...
3301 2011-07-07 19:06:51 <BlueMatt> plus remember in the end it makes no difference in terms of bw for them
3302 2011-07-07 19:06:57 <senseles> when younger guys come in they'll know how to change with the market
3303 2011-07-07 19:06:59 <BlueMatt> its already a very multicasted system
3304 2011-07-07 19:07:18 <BlueMatt> senseles: people have been saying that since cassette tapes were almost illegal...
3305 2011-07-07 19:07:27 <BlueMatt> (because they could lead to piracy ;) )
3306 2011-07-07 19:07:56 <senseles> i guess maybe we should buy off politicians with bitcoins huh?
3307 2011-07-07 19:08:05 <rate4> lol
3308 2011-07-07 19:08:07 <senseles> even the field a bit
3309 2011-07-07 19:08:10 Nexus7 has joined
3310 2011-07-07 19:08:11 btcrowan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3311 2011-07-07 19:08:35 <senseles> or move to nauru
3312 2011-07-07 19:08:46 <BlueMatt> fuck it, lets all just move to mars
3313 2011-07-07 19:08:52 <BlueMatt> make our own damn internet there
3314 2011-07-07 19:09:02 minimoose has joined
3315 2011-07-07 19:09:27 <rate4> marsnet?
3316 2011-07-07 19:09:40 <BlueMatt> sounds good to me
3317 2011-07-07 19:10:07 <rate4> Do you know what the best way for a merchant to integrate bitcoin is?
3318 2011-07-07 19:10:19 <rate4> I have been using mybitcoin for now
3319 2011-07-07 19:10:21 <senseles> i was going to mention something about that earlier
3320 2011-07-07 19:10:27 <senseles> there should be a whmcs module coded for bitcoin
3321 2011-07-07 19:10:56 <senseles> for automatic processing i guess the best way would be to run a client on the server and poll it to find out what the status of various transactions is
3322 2011-07-07 19:11:08 <senseles> you could pretty easily generate a new receiving key for every user
3323 2011-07-07 19:11:09 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3324 2011-07-07 19:11:19 <rate4> ah ok but would that involve having my private keys on the server?
3325 2011-07-07 19:11:20 btcrowan has joined
3326 2011-07-07 19:11:34 <senseles> not necessarily you could put your wallet anywhere
3327 2011-07-07 19:11:41 <senseles> but the server would need to be able to poll your client
3328 2011-07-07 19:11:51 <senseles> i guess another way would be to use some sort of automated block explorer
3329 2011-07-07 19:12:09 <senseles> to find transactions without needing access to your real wallet platform
3330 2011-07-07 19:12:21 <rate4> ah ok I will check that out
3331 2011-07-07 19:12:31 <rate4> thanks
3332 2011-07-07 19:12:48 <senseles> yw, let me know how it goes. I was considering accepting bitcoin as well, at least its on the table
3333 2011-07-07 19:13:01 <AlonzoTG> yeah, the only sane place to keep your wallet is in a locked server rack in your basement.
3334 2011-07-07 19:13:02 <rate4> what type of business do you have?
3335 2011-07-07 19:13:19 <senseles> VPN service, among other custom stuff i do for clients
3336 2011-07-07 19:13:26 <rate4> oh nice
3337 2011-07-07 19:13:30 <rate4> do you use openvpn?
3338 2011-07-07 19:13:41 <senseles> pptp, l2tp, openvpn and squid
3339 2011-07-07 19:14:01 <rate4> I had to set up a VPN in the USA so I could watch hulu :P
3340 2011-07-07 19:14:09 <senseles> same, thats why i started the service
3341 2011-07-07 19:14:19 <rate4> nice
3342 2011-07-07 19:14:30 <rate4> how many VPNs do you use per IP?
3343 2011-07-07 19:14:53 <BlueMatt> oh god damn uni switched to fucking m$ live mail hosted shit...evolution, fetchmail, Thunderbird...none of them work
3344 2011-07-07 19:14:55 <senseles> openvpn is behind nat usually 5 outgoing ips per 20 or 30 connections
3345 2011-07-07 19:15:01 <senseles> pptp and l2tp are assigned dedicated ips
3346 2011-07-07 19:15:05 <BlueMatt> well Im no longer checking that email
3347 2011-07-07 19:15:52 <rate4> awesome never used pptp or l2tp always been a openvpn fan
3348 2011-07-07 19:16:09 <BlueMatt> senseles: that has nothing to do with the vpn, only the very specific configuration
3349 2011-07-07 19:16:22 <nanotube> BlueMatt: i'd have thought even ms now does pop3
3350 2011-07-07 19:16:32 <nanotube> BlueMatt: i know hotmail does...
3351 2011-07-07 19:16:33 <BlueMatt> nanotube: nope exchange only...
3352 2011-07-07 19:16:37 <BlueMatt> afaict
3353 2011-07-07 19:16:44 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3354 2011-07-07 19:16:45 p0s- is now known as p0s
3355 2011-07-07 19:16:46 <nanotube> well, set up email forwarding to $saneprovider
3356 2011-07-07 19:16:48 <nanotube> and done
3357 2011-07-07 19:16:50 <senseles> correct, he was asking me how many ips i have per user
3358 2011-07-07 19:16:55 <BlueMatt> and no email forwarding afaict either...
3359 2011-07-07 19:16:59 <BlueMatt> I mean seriously wtf?
3360 2011-07-07 19:17:01 <nanotube> wtf!
3361 2011-07-07 19:17:04 <nanotube> talk to it
3362 2011-07-07 19:17:08 <nanotube> IT that is
3363 2011-07-07 19:17:12 <nanotube> not it haha
3364 2011-07-07 19:17:15 jivvz has left ("Lämnar")
3365 2011-07-07 19:17:29 <BlueMatt> oh, I had already started talking to the webpage...it didnt respond
3366 2011-07-07 19:17:44 <nanotube> haha
3367 2011-07-07 19:17:55 <rate4> random question and this is probebly not the best place to ask as its not very dev but does any one know the best place to promote your bitcoin business?
3368 2011-07-07 19:18:17 <BlueMatt> oh hey, there is imap access, hidden in a odd debug menu that shows a crazily-named server you have to use...wtf?
3369 2011-07-07 19:18:18 <nanotube> rate4: forums, #bitcoin, #bitcoin-otc, wiki trade page
3370 2011-07-07 19:18:26 oozy_burgler has joined
3371 2011-07-07 19:18:32 <rate4> thank you nanotube
3372 2011-07-07 19:18:37 <jgarzik> 5.58 blocks/hour
3373 2011-07-07 19:18:38 <nanotube> rate4: good luck! :)
3374 2011-07-07 19:18:41 <jgarzik> DDoS is taking its toll
3375 2011-07-07 19:18:52 <nanotube> time for distributed pooling!
3376 2011-07-07 19:18:52 <jgarzik> we haven't been under 6 blocks/hour in a long time
3377 2011-07-07 19:19:22 <BlueMatt> yea
3378 2011-07-07 19:19:48 <senseles> can i copy the block file from one computer to another? it's taking forever for this server to catch up.
3379 2011-07-07 19:19:55 <senseles> I didn't know if maybe it would freak out or something
3380 2011-07-07 19:19:58 <sipa> senseles: yes, copy blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat
3381 2011-07-07 19:19:59 <BlueMatt> yes you can
3382 2011-07-07 19:20:08 <BlueMatt> or dl from bitcoin.bluematt.me
3383 2011-07-07 19:20:24 underscor has joined
3384 2011-07-07 19:20:55 <jgarzik> sipa: any bugs seen for 0.3.24rc3?  thinking about final release tomorrow...
3385 2011-07-07 19:21:01 * jgarzik already polled BlueMatt and tcatm 
3386 2011-07-07 19:21:23 magn3ts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3387 2011-07-07 19:21:35 <sipa> jgarzik: none that i know of anymore
3388 2011-07-07 19:22:08 oozyburglar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3389 2011-07-07 19:22:34 <nanotube> jgarzik: no-net-crash fixed, that's all i know.  ;) thanks sipa o/ ;)
3390 2011-07-07 19:22:51 <BlueMatt> does anyone have a win 2000 box sitting around?
3391 2011-07-07 19:23:14 <sipa> nanotube: i caused that bug, i did not fix it
3392 2011-07-07 19:23:37 <nanotube> sipa: oh heh well... in that case, i take back my thanks! :P hehe
3393 2011-07-07 19:23:48 <sipa> i believe ius found it and fixed it
3394 2011-07-07 19:25:18 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
3395 2011-07-07 19:28:49 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit I hate sha256.
3396 2011-07-07 19:29:14 btcrowan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3397 2011-07-07 19:29:28 <SeriousWorm> lol
3398 2011-07-07 19:29:35 <SeriousWorm> epic quote :)
3399 2011-07-07 19:30:13 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3400 2011-07-07 19:31:01 slush2 has joined
3401 2011-07-07 19:32:15 <erus`> must be an insider thing
3402 2011-07-07 19:32:16 rate4 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3403 2011-07-07 19:32:50 sgornick has joined
3404 2011-07-07 19:32:56 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3405 2011-07-07 19:34:44 justmoon has joined
3406 2011-07-07 19:36:59 btcrowan has joined
3407 2011-07-07 19:37:38 <senseles> odd, i guess i cant copy the DB?
3408 2011-07-07 19:37:39 <senseles> EXCEPTION: 11DbException Db::open: Invalid argument
3409 2011-07-07 19:40:03 p0s is now known as p0s-
3410 2011-07-07 19:42:31 <K_F> senseles: same client version?
3411 2011-07-07 19:43:02 <senseles> well
3412 2011-07-07 19:43:13 <K_F> my initial guess would be different bdb versions , but can't say I've looked too closely at the source
3413 2011-07-07 19:43:15 <senseles> on the old comp i had it running an older version
3414 2011-07-07 19:43:21 <senseles> then i upgraded to the newer version
3415 2011-07-07 19:43:24 <senseles> didnt have any problems there
3416 2011-07-07 19:43:31 <senseles> then i copied it
3417 2011-07-07 19:43:42 <senseles> theres an extra 1 gig of data in the database directory and some other misc files
3418 2011-07-07 19:43:47 <BlueMatt> na all versions use bdb 4.7
3419 2011-07-07 19:43:49 <senseles> im copying those over now maybe it's just missing stuff
3420 2011-07-07 19:43:55 <BlueMatt> did bitcoin close cleanly
3421 2011-07-07 19:43:59 <senseles> i meant the older version of bitcoin
3422 2011-07-07 19:44:05 <BlueMatt> and you did close it before copying right?
3423 2011-07-07 19:44:09 <senseles> erm, no i was just kill -9'ing it
3424 2011-07-07 19:44:12 <senseles> lol
3425 2011-07-07 19:44:18 <BlueMatt> well thats why
3426 2011-07-07 19:44:55 <BlueMatt> you either need the database dir or you need to close cleanly (which btw wtf are you not doing that to begin with????)
3427 2011-07-07 19:45:16 <senseles> habbit
3428 2011-07-07 19:45:27 <zamgo> isn't there a sourceforge repos with updated blockchains, also?
3429 2011-07-07 19:45:36 <zamgo> hmmm
3430 2011-07-07 19:45:41 <K_F> a habit of forcefully closing apps? doesn't sound too healthy
3431 2011-07-07 19:45:54 <BlueMatt> zamgo: no, only bitcoin.bluematt.me
3432 2011-07-07 19:46:06 Beccara has joined
3433 2011-07-07 19:46:14 <zamgo> hmm.. yea.. I see some old ones on sourceforge (3+ months old)
3434 2011-07-07 19:46:16 <BlueMatt> K_F: yea sounds like senseles is quite senseless </bad pun>
3435 2011-07-07 19:46:32 * justmoon slow claps at matt's pun
3436 2011-07-07 19:46:41 <senseles> just excited to get this working
3437 2011-07-07 19:46:45 <K_F> nice one :)
3438 2011-07-07 19:46:46 SecretSJ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3439 2011-07-07 19:47:12 <senseles> my steamgroup is going to use it to generate funds for new servers, etc
3440 2011-07-07 19:47:20 <BlueMatt> nice
3441 2011-07-07 19:47:23 <senseles> cant wait to see 400+ users churning those hashes for me
3442 2011-07-07 19:47:33 <BlueMatt> oh doing a pool are we?
3443 2011-07-07 19:47:42 <senseles> yep, that's what im working on now
3444 2011-07-07 19:47:47 <BlueMatt> pushpoold?
3445 2011-07-07 19:47:49 <senseles> yes
3446 2011-07-07 19:47:58 <BlueMatt> neic
3447 2011-07-07 19:48:00 <BlueMatt> nice*
3448 2011-07-07 19:48:26 rate5 has joined
3449 2011-07-07 19:48:39 <senseles> we'll see when it starts cracking those blocks
3450 2011-07-07 19:49:19 <senseles> paying 200$/month for colocation sucks
3451 2011-07-07 19:49:35 <BlueMatt> you are gonna be losing money there
3452 2011-07-07 19:49:39 <senseles> (for a game server ontop of that)
3453 2011-07-07 19:49:44 <BlueMatt> why does it need colo'd?
3454 2011-07-07 19:49:49 <senseles> it's in the philippines
3455 2011-07-07 19:49:58 <Namegduf> Why does it need to be there?
3456 2011-07-07 19:50:00 <BlueMatt> why not just host it in your basement?
3457 2011-07-07 19:50:03 <BlueMatt> thats what I do
3458 2011-07-07 19:50:07 <senseles> Because thats where the entire steam group is located
3459 2011-07-07 19:50:19 <Namegduf> You don't have to go for geographically close.
3460 2011-07-07 19:50:20 <senseles> the maximum uplink for residential connections is like 768kpbs
3461 2011-07-07 19:50:32 <Namegduf> Unless latency is a huge deal, which I don't think it is for Bitcoin.
3462 2011-07-07 19:50:39 <rate5> the philippines have lots of brown outs :(
3463 2011-07-07 19:50:39 <senseles> you do when the most prominent ISP doesn't setup BGP on their network
3464 2011-07-07 19:50:45 <senseles> and they just default route everything to los angeles
3465 2011-07-07 19:50:52 <senseles> when i connect to singapore
3466 2011-07-07 19:50:56 <Namegduf> So buy a cheap server in Los Angeles
3467 2011-07-07 19:50:57 <senseles> it goes from PH -> USA -> SG
3468 2011-07-07 19:51:01 <senseles> 180 ping? :x
3469 2011-07-07 19:51:03 <senseles> no ty
3470 2011-07-07 19:51:03 <Namegduf> US hosting is ridiculously cheap.
3471 2011-07-07 19:51:11 <Namegduf> Er, bitcoin doesn't care
3472 2011-07-07 19:51:23 Fireball has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3473 2011-07-07 19:51:29 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
3474 2011-07-07 19:51:36 oozy_burgler is now known as oozyburglar
3475 2011-07-07 19:51:47 <Namegduf> Hmm, although if you're running a game server as well, you're kinda screwed.
3476 2011-07-07 19:51:56 <senseles> what do you mean?
3477 2011-07-07 19:52:10 <Namegduf> Game servers do care about ping.
3478 2011-07-07 19:52:14 <senseles> yep
3479 2011-07-07 19:52:40 <senseles> According to some bitcoin site where it converts mhash/s into an estimated btc per day, week, month
3480 2011-07-07 19:52:51 <senseles> we'll make enough to get an entire rack and brand new shiny systems
3481 2011-07-07 19:52:52 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3482 2011-07-07 19:53:05 <senseles> that is assuming an average mhash/s per user of 50+
3483 2011-07-07 19:55:00 <BlueMatt> damn you must have a ton of users
3484 2011-07-07 19:55:30 Fireball has joined
3485 2011-07-07 19:56:20 <senseles> quite a few
3486 2011-07-07 19:56:42 <senseles> the largest gaming servers in the PH just shut down so theres about 10,000 users with no game servers to play on
3487 2011-07-07 19:56:46 <senseles> and tf2 just went free to play
3488 2011-07-07 19:57:40 <senseles> i needed the database directory and other log/data files
3489 2011-07-07 19:57:44 <senseles> once those were copied over it booted up
3490 2011-07-07 19:58:34 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: latency matters a bit validating but not for normal bitcoin usage
3491 2011-07-07 19:58:45 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: you'll end up with more stale shares
3492 2011-07-07 19:59:13 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: I honestly doubt a few hundred milliseconds is relevant on that scale.
3493 2011-07-07 19:59:31 SecretSJ has joined
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3497 2011-07-07 20:00:00 <senseles> how does pushpoold log who has done what work and how much?
3498 2011-07-07 20:00:07 <marvin_> ;;bc,status
3499 2011-07-07 20:00:07 <gribble> Error: "bc,status" is not a valid command.
3500 2011-07-07 20:00:17 <jgarzik> senseles: sql db or flat file
3501 2011-07-07 20:00:28 <marvin_> ;;bc,stats
3502 2011-07-07 20:00:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135202 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1885 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 20 hours, 29 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1488581.86772882
3503 2011-07-07 20:00:40 <senseles> i assume i need to configure the sql statements in the configuration file then?
3504 2011-07-07 20:00:56 <jgarzik> senseles: unless you use the default statements, yes
3505 2011-07-07 20:01:56 <senseles> The only statement I'm seeing in here is the login statement. I didn't see any examples for anything else?
3506 2011-07-07 20:02:01 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: it becomes relevent when you've got >4 1TH+ nodes
3507 2011-07-07 20:02:19 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: If you say so.
3508 2011-07-07 20:02:23 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: of course, at that point you should also be setting up your own local pool anyways
3509 2011-07-07 20:04:24 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: 100-400ms wasted on calculations that have no chance of being valid * 10/hr * 24/hr is 24-96 seconds of wasted computer time per node per day
3510 2011-07-07 20:04:33 <Namegduf> Dear god
3511 2011-07-07 20:04:52 <jrmithdobbs> so if you're really looking to maximise efficiency, it adds up
3512 2011-07-07 20:05:10 <Namegduf> That's almost 0.12%
3513 2011-07-07 20:05:22 <Namegduf> Of computational time in a day
3514 2011-07-07 20:05:45 <jrmithdobbs> that's amateur thinking ;p
3515 2011-07-07 20:05:59 <Namegduf> No, it's dev thinking.
3516 2011-07-07 20:05:59 <jrmithdobbs> compute clusters should be doing productive working 99.999% of the time
3517 2011-07-07 20:06:04 <jrmithdobbs> otherwise, you're wasting money
3518 2011-07-07 20:06:14 <Namegduf> Optimise based on the biggest areas to improve first.
3519 2011-07-07 20:06:27 <jrmithdobbs> that's one of the easiest areas to improve in
3520 2011-07-07 20:06:32 RenaKunisaki has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3521 2011-07-07 20:06:41 <jrmithdobbs> is the point
3522 2011-07-07 20:07:10 rate5 has left ()
3523 2011-07-07 20:08:18 RenaKunisaki has joined
3524 2011-07-07 20:09:01 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: that's ~.75Kwh per month per node waste
3525 2011-07-07 20:09:20 <jrmithdobbs> (in the 96 second case)
3526 2011-07-07 20:09:24 btcrowan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3527 2011-07-07 20:09:49 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: Increasing the scale fails to increase the percentages, which remain small enough that pretty much anything else you could possibly optimise is a bigger issue
3528 2011-07-07 20:10:08 <Namegduf> And small enough that it'd need to be pretty damn cheap to reduce latency to be a good deal.
3529 2011-07-07 20:10:09 marvin_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3530 2011-07-07 20:10:20 <jrmithdobbs> bigger issue? sure. that doesn't make it irrelevent like you claimed
3531 2011-07-07 20:10:39 <Namegduf> In the case I was actually talking about, it would definitely not be worth paying 200/mo colo fees for improved latency
3532 2011-07-07 20:11:00 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: considering reducing latency to the pool is a matter of throwing up a box with bitcoind/pushpoold locally (which doesn't exactly take massive hardware), it's def worth doing
3533 2011-07-07 20:11:39 pyro_ has joined
3534 2011-07-07 20:11:58 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: In the example in question there wasn't a "locally", the boxes were not in the same place.
3535 2011-07-07 20:12:08 liltoe has joined
3536 2011-07-07 20:12:13 <jrmithdobbs> local to each set of machines
3537 2011-07-07 20:12:43 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: And relevance is a matter of opinion. I'm not convinced that you've actually drawn a clearly defined line below which gains are no longer worth the attention.
3538 2011-07-07 20:13:16 the22mafia has joined
3539 2011-07-07 20:14:11 <jrmithdobbs> not to mention having your own local pool also mitigates incompetence of pool operators taking their shit down for much more than 96s/24hr ;p
3540 2011-07-07 20:14:20 <jrmithdobbs> which they do. constantly.
3541 2011-07-07 20:18:41 scott`_ has quit (Quit: scott`_)
3542 2011-07-07 20:20:19 <gdoteof> any recommendations on a trustworthy and fast VPN?  preferably with US and European IPs?
3543 2011-07-07 20:20:57 bernie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3544 2011-07-07 20:21:21 BTCTrader has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3545 2011-07-07 20:21:26 kubhoosh has joined
3546 2011-07-07 20:21:33 <the22mafia> Can someone here explain exactly what a program like Phoenix does? I have been mining for weeks, written API's for BTC sites....I am tech savy, so shouldnt be a problem...Just want to know what info it gets from the server, and what it spits back out///
3547 2011-07-07 20:21:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: question wrt bd commits in bitcoin...is it better to start passing around a CWalletDB in wallet.cpp or make a CWalletDB private object in CWallet and just if (walletdb) use it, otherwise just do what you used to do...Im assuming pass it around
3548 2011-07-07 20:21:51 <BlueMatt> ?
3549 2011-07-07 20:22:33 kuboosh has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3550 2011-07-07 20:24:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: i wouldn't pass it around
3551 2011-07-07 20:24:31 <sipa> cdb already caches open databases
3552 2011-07-07 20:24:58 <BlueMatt> I thought that doesnt work for commits?
3553 2011-07-07 20:25:06 <BlueMatt> db txes
3554 2011-07-07 20:25:16 <BlueMatt> but I havent read it in a while...
3555 2011-07-07 20:25:18 Pinion has joined
3556 2011-07-07 20:25:37 <AlonzoTG> is implementing a driver for Version messages and noticed that the field "services" is redundant to an identical field in "addr_me"
3557 2011-07-07 20:26:05 <sipa> i think you just need a cwalletdb open in some stack frame
3558 2011-07-07 20:26:32 <sipa> if you don't want it opening/closing the db all the time
3559 2011-07-07 20:26:53 <BlueMatt> no, I just care about dbtxns as that is all that really matters for write times
3560 2011-07-07 20:27:00 <BlueMatt> (when doing large writes)
3561 2011-07-07 20:27:02 * AlonzoTG contemplates burrying $10,000 bitcoins in the back yard and digging it up in 20 years...
3562 2011-07-07 20:27:08 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3563 2011-07-07 20:27:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: more xoncrete?
3564 2011-07-07 20:27:44 <sipa> concrete
3565 2011-07-07 20:27:57 <BlueMatt> eg pull 388 (but in CWallet) or while encrypting keys
3566 2011-07-07 20:28:34 bernie has joined
3567 2011-07-07 20:31:02 <erus`> when does the blockchain increase?
3568 2011-07-07 20:31:09 <erus`> when a block is mined?
3569 2011-07-07 20:31:12 <kinlo> yes
3570 2011-07-07 20:31:12 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3571 2011-07-07 20:31:23 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3572 2011-07-07 20:31:55 minimoose has left ()
3573 2011-07-07 20:31:55 <erus`> is it gonna slow down now that drug site is down?
3574 2011-07-07 20:32:06 Xunie has joined
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3576 2011-07-07 20:33:52 <senseles> does anyone have any idea what this means in the pushpoold log "time-too-old"?
3577 2011-07-07 20:34:06 <senseles> in the share log
3578 2011-07-07 20:34:33 <sipa> BlueMatt: pass cwalletdb around, i guess
3579 2011-07-07 20:35:17 <BlueMatt> damn, that just looks so ugly...I suppose its the only way though
3580 2011-07-07 20:35:23 <BlueMatt> I was hoping you had a better way...
3581 2011-07-07 20:36:01 <copumpkin> feature request for the client: be able to annotate transactions with some text :)
3582 2011-07-07 20:36:02 <sipa> not without exposing some lowerlevel bdb stuff
3583 2011-07-07 20:36:27 <sipa> but maybe i need to look into it somewhat better
3584 2011-07-07 20:36:54 <BlueMatt> well or one could cache txns too, but then you get the potential for multiple txns interfering with each other and it could get ugly
3585 2011-07-07 20:37:56 AStove has joined
3586 2011-07-07 20:37:57 <sipa> indeed
3587 2011-07-07 20:38:14 <BlueMatt> maybe txn per thread...
3588 2011-07-07 20:38:18 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3589 2011-07-07 20:38:24 <BlueMatt> s/txn/txn cache/
3590 2011-07-07 20:39:47 amiller has joined
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3594 2011-07-07 20:43:12 <AlonzoTG> in variable length string, is that string also zero terminated? this is important because I need to develop a strategy for de-serializing it.
3595 2011-07-07 20:43:59 Lexa has joined
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3600 2011-07-07 20:51:18 <Keefe> BlueMatt: it looks like your blockchain snapshots aren't up to date? bitcoin-blockchain-20110707.tar.bz2 had only 131990 blocks
3601 2011-07-07 20:51:33 <Keefe> that's a few weeks old
3602 2011-07-07 20:52:49 b4epoche_ has joined
3603 2011-07-07 20:54:17 <BlueMatt> oh that would actually make sense, it hadnt updated in a while and only gets a limited time to update per night...let me go update my node 0.3.24 run it again
3604 2011-07-07 20:55:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: is there a reason there is no rc3 on sf?
3605 2011-07-07 20:56:14 <BlueMatt> (binary)
3606 2011-07-07 20:58:26 eternal1 has joined
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3610 2011-07-07 21:08:14 dan_a has joined
3611 2011-07-07 21:08:47 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
3612 2011-07-07 21:08:48 <gribble> 135209
3613 2011-07-07 21:08:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: because I'm a dumbass and forgot?
3614 2011-07-07 21:08:54 nocreativenick1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3615 2011-07-07 21:09:11 <BlueMatt> thats fair
3616 2011-07-07 21:09:48 <BlueMatt> shows how many people actually test our rcs that no one even noticed...
3617 2011-07-07 21:09:50 Clipse has joined
3618 2011-07-07 21:10:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: uploaded now
3619 2011-07-07 21:10:52 <BlueMatt> thanks
3620 2011-07-07 21:10:54 <sipa> i thinl git head is tested more than rcs
3621 2011-07-07 21:11:04 <sipa> think
3622 2011-07-07 21:11:15 <BlueMatt> I agree
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3626 2011-07-07 21:17:21 <senseles> all of my blocks are stale :(
3627 2011-07-07 21:17:31 <senseles> does it matter what time zone i'm in compared to the pool server?
3628 2011-07-07 21:18:45 <BlueMatt> no
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3633 2011-07-07 21:23:13 <erus`> senseles: you can send payments from the future
3634 2011-07-07 21:23:17 karnac has joined
3635 2011-07-07 21:23:29 <senseles> Well, the pushpoold server keeps saying "time-too-old"
3636 2011-07-07 21:23:37 <senseles> the i ntp'd the server to update it
3637 2011-07-07 21:23:43 <senseles> but it's still saying it
3638 2011-07-07 21:24:02 <BlueMatt> its not about time, its about time since getwork
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3640 2011-07-07 21:25:52 <senseles> so my gpu is just too slow to process the data?
3641 2011-07-07 21:25:57 <senseles> or is there something else going wrong
3642 2011-07-07 21:26:07 <BlueMatt> no, the miner should keep it on time
3643 2011-07-07 21:26:17 <BlueMatt> either your miner sucks or your pool is misconfigured
3644 2011-07-07 21:26:43 <senseles> Should roll.ntime.disable be true or false?
3645 2011-07-07 21:26:44 moa7 has joined
3646 2011-07-07 21:27:07 <senseles> i'm using guiminer with pocblm or whatever it's called
3647 2011-07-07 21:27:21 <BlueMatt> just try different miners/settings
3648 2011-07-07 21:27:28 <senseles> it worked fine locally and remotely direct to the linux bitcoin client
3649 2011-07-07 21:27:36 <senseles> it only started doing this via pushpool
3650 2011-07-07 21:28:01 <BlueMatt> just try different miners/settings
3651 2011-07-07 21:29:16 the22mafia has left ()
3652 2011-07-07 21:31:27 <dikidera> i'm curious why cgminer doesnt like prime numbers...
3653 2011-07-07 21:33:00 <BlueMatt> ?????
3654 2011-07-07 21:33:15 <BlueMatt> Im curious as to where you come up with these things
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3658 2011-07-07 21:34:50 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rf1943c2 / (lib/bitcoin.js package.json): Version bump to 0.0.7. (+6 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/oojj9R https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/f1943c2bcd3f566123a1e61f34ba17fdefec92a0
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3661 2011-07-07 21:35:44 <dikidera> well basically, if i were to change some numbers like nonce for an example to a number like 33 instead of 32..the program either crashes or gives me upstrem_work failed
3662 2011-07-07 21:35:47 MrTiggr has joined
3663 2011-07-07 21:37:10 <dikidera> well, 33 seems to be a composite number, but anyway...crashes a lot
3664 2011-07-07 21:37:18 <dikidera> could be that it's under mingw32 but who knows
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3668 2011-07-07 21:39:52 <sipa> only use powers of two
3669 2011-07-07 21:40:54 <dikidera> still, the program shouldnt be failing like that
3670 2011-07-07 21:41:18 <BlueMatt> when you are changing random constants or not paying attention to docs, then yea...it should
3671 2011-07-07 21:41:37 <dikidera> no, i change the nonce...the starting nonce is 524288
3672 2011-07-07 21:41:41 <dikidera> which is multiple of 256
3673 2011-07-07 21:41:57 <dikidera> but if i change it to 524289 it crashes...the program does
3674 2011-07-07 21:43:03 <sipa> then don't change it
3675 2011-07-07 21:43:20 <dikidera> the question is why does it fail...i see no reason to
3676 2011-07-07 21:43:58 <BlueMatt> read the code
3677 2011-07-07 21:44:02 <dikidera> i did
3678 2011-07-07 21:44:07 <BlueMatt> read it again
3679 2011-07-07 21:44:15 <dikidera> the crash occurs in...pthread
3680 2011-07-07 21:44:21 <dikidera> pthread-32.lib
3681 2011-07-07 21:44:24 <BlueMatt> read the code
3682 2011-07-07 21:44:31 <dikidera> lol, ok
3683 2011-07-07 21:45:38 <dikidera> it just doesnt like numbers like 3 or 33 or 9 or 7
3684 2011-07-07 21:47:13 <dikidera> if a miner really uses random nonces to find a hash, it shouldnt care what number it's at
3685 2011-07-07 21:47:25 <knotwork> how can one turn an address as shown for human reading into a scriptPubKey (a PubKey in general presumably)?
3686 2011-07-07 21:47:43 erle- has joined
3687 2011-07-07 21:47:50 <knotwork> there is a PubKeyToAddress in base58.h but no AddressToPubKey
3688 2011-07-07 21:47:58 ^1bitc0inplz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3689 2011-07-07 21:48:03 <erle-> have you thought about adding the -fstack-protector option to the unix makefile?
3690 2011-07-07 21:48:13 <BlueMatt> knotwork: its a hash
3691 2011-07-07 21:48:17 <BlueMatt> its impossible to go back
3692 2011-07-07 21:48:17 ^1bitc0inplz has joined
3693 2011-07-07 21:48:57 <moa7> nearly impossible
3694 2011-07-07 21:49:05 <knotwork> oh. so I need a public key in the first place not an address afterall
3695 2011-07-07 21:49:06 <BlueMatt> well easier than that
3696 2011-07-07 21:49:16 <BlueMatt> if you search the chain and you find that address used, you know the pubkey
3697 2011-07-07 21:49:26 <sipa> a scriptPubkey in fact does not contain a public key for normal txs
3698 2011-07-07 21:49:50 <sipa> only the hash of it
3699 2011-07-07 21:49:51 <BlueMatt> well if its spent
3700 2011-07-07 21:50:22 <knotwork> I am looking at the line txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey << vchGenerationKey << OP_CHECKSIG; in main.cpp
3701 2011-07-07 21:50:26 pogden has joined
3702 2011-07-07 21:50:47 <sipa> there it does contain a pubkey
3703 2011-07-07 21:50:48 <knotwork> it is desired to plug in a specified miner's address a vchGenerationKey
3704 2011-07-07 21:51:05 <sipa> no, its public key
3705 2011-07-07 21:51:18 <knotwork> most likely a list of miner addresses would be in human readable form, the normal way we see addresses
3706 2011-07-07 21:51:56 <sipa> generation txs go directly to a pubkey
3707 2011-07-07 21:51:56 <dikidera> well->Fault Module Name: libpthread-2.dll
3708 2011-07-07 21:51:58 <knotwork> is that maybe not feasible, we would need the list of authorised miner addresses to be list of pubkeys not of addresses?
3709 2011-07-07 21:52:18 <sipa> normal txs go to an address
3710 2011-07-07 21:52:20 <knotwork> so we ask each miner their pubkey not their address?
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3712 2011-07-07 21:52:45 <sipa> what are you talking about?
3713 2011-07-07 21:52:48 <knotwork> ok so how can joe miner find out a pubkey to tell us as where he wants his mined coins to go ?
3714 2011-07-07 21:52:52 <sipa> a pool?
3715 2011-07-07 21:52:57 <knotwork> sort of, yes
3716 2011-07-07 21:53:17 <sipa> but that code you are looking at is in bitcoin d?
3717 2011-07-07 21:53:25 <sipa> bitcoind
3718 2011-07-07 21:53:30 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3719 2011-07-07 21:53:30 <knotwork> we want to make a client, "groupcoin" or "devcoin" or whatever, in which coins minted have to go to certain listed people/addresses/keys
3720 2011-07-07 21:53:30 pogden has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3721 2011-07-07 21:53:41 <knotwork> yes it is in bitcoind
3722 2011-07-07 21:53:47 <knotwork> and in bitcoin-qt
3723 2011-07-07 21:53:50 <sipa> use normal txs
3724 2011-07-07 21:54:00 pogden has joined
3725 2011-07-07 21:54:12 <sipa> not spend to pubkey, as isused by default for generations
3726 2011-07-07 21:54:46 <sipa> read the script page on the wiki
3727 2011-07-07 21:55:45 <sipa> RobinPKR: now, what are you goig to define asatoshi as?
3728 2011-07-07 21:55:48 <sipa> eh
3729 2011-07-07 21:55:51 <knotwork> thanks I am not being sarcastic in saying you have been very helpful; you have, thank you
3730 2011-07-07 21:56:00 <sipa> roconnor
3731 2011-07-07 21:56:24 <minus> ;;bc,stats
3732 2011-07-07 21:56:27 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135218 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1869 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1518087.83626942
3733 2011-07-07 21:57:46 <dikidera> cool JSON decode failed(1): end of file expected near '0'
3734 2011-07-07 21:59:21 moa7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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3738 2011-07-07 22:03:07 <Blitzboom> So this whole supposedly decentralized, resilient crypto-currency comes down to this?  "We trust this one guy.  Why would he want to screw us over?"
3739 2011-07-07 22:03:09 <Blitzboom> :D
3740 2011-07-07 22:03:32 enquirer has joined
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3743 2011-07-07 22:06:06 erus`_ has joined
3744 2011-07-07 22:06:43 <gps1> df
3745 2011-07-07 22:07:03 <pogden> Blitzboom: what?
3746 2011-07-07 22:07:13 <gps1> keyboard fart, sorry
3747 2011-07-07 22:07:15 <Blitzboom> deepbit
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3749 2011-07-07 22:08:11 erus`_ is now known as erus`
3750 2011-07-07 22:08:50 <pogden> deepbit is about 25%, isn't it?
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3758 2011-07-07 22:12:21 <b4epoche_> Blitzboom:  start a pool, advertise, and DDoS deepbit into oblivion...
3759 2011-07-07 22:12:43 <Blitzboom> yeah, that hasn’t been tried before
3760 2011-07-07 22:12:46 rynx has joined
3761 2011-07-07 22:14:50 <[Tycho]> The correct answer is to make a better pool.
3762 2011-07-07 22:15:17 <BlueMatt> na ddos ftw
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3766 2011-07-07 22:17:27 <sturles> This problem goes away completely if everyone does as Satoshi intended.  Mine solo.  Like men.
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3775 2011-07-07 22:19:04 <senseles> or just use smaller pools
3776 2011-07-07 22:19:25 <senseles> ipv4 multicast and regional servers ftw
3777 2011-07-07 22:19:25 <justmoon> god damn this grinds my gears...
3778 2011-07-07 22:19:26 <sturles> One pool for each miner.
3779 2011-07-07 22:19:36 <justmoon> we could have a 100% pool and it wouldn't be a problem
3780 2011-07-07 22:19:50 <justmoon> all that means that we have a really awesome pool that is operated really well
3781 2011-07-07 22:20:00 <senseles> just go spend 500k on 6990s
3782 2011-07-07 22:20:02 <Eliel_> I have been thinking of Bitcoin and Ripple as alternative and competing digital money projects but I just realized that they are complementary.
3783 2011-07-07 22:20:09 <senseles> and outhash all the other pools yourself
3784 2011-07-07 22:20:13 <justmoon> decentralization doesn't mean everything has to be split up into itty bitty pieces, it just means that there mustn'y be barriers to entry
3785 2011-07-07 22:20:28 <justmoon> if [Tycho] starts misbehaving, he very quickly won't have a large pool anymore
3786 2011-07-07 22:20:30 scott` has joined
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3788 2011-07-07 22:20:57 scott` is now known as Guest22666
3789 2011-07-07 22:21:16 <justmoon> right now, he's doing an awesome job, so his pool is big, stop being jealous/twats/paranoid and marvel in the technology people are building to make mining for efficient
3790 2011-07-07 22:21:19 <Eliel_> Ripple is basically a distributed loan matching and resolution system while bitcoin is a valuable commodity.
3791 2011-07-07 22:21:33 <Eliel_> if you put them together, you have a p2p bank, basically.
3792 2011-07-07 22:21:38 <justmoon> Eliel_, 100% agree, they're complementary
3793 2011-07-07 22:22:17 <justmoon> bitcoin gives you fungibility while ripple gives you credit
3794 2011-07-07 22:23:09 <Eliel_> I really think the projects ought to merge, at least partially.
3795 2011-07-07 22:23:41 <justmoon> Eliel_, now you lost me, divided we stand, united we fall :)
3796 2011-07-07 22:23:58 <b4epoche_> ripple = http://www.ripple.org/ ?
3797 2011-07-07 22:24:06 <justmoon> yup
3798 2011-07-07 22:24:15 <Eliel_> justmoon: and now you lost me :D
3799 2011-07-07 22:24:19 <justmoon> b4epoche, wait no
3800 2011-07-07 22:24:33 <justmoon> b4epoche, http://ripple-project.org/faq.html
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3805 2011-07-07 22:24:58 <b4epoche_> yea, the link I found seemed 'close enough' but kinda not...
3806 2011-07-07 22:25:22 <justmoon> Eliel_, ripple may or may not be successful, bitcoin may or may not be successful, if you merge them you just risk that one takes down the other with it if it fails
3807 2011-07-07 22:25:35 <justmoon> obviously it kinda depends on what exactly you mean with "merge"
3808 2011-07-07 22:26:24 <justmoon> also I imagine there are quite significant political differences between the two community with ripple may be being a bit more left and bitcoin a bit more libertarian leaning - by and large
3809 2011-07-07 22:28:08 <Eliel_> what I mean is, bitcoin has quite a large nodebase, Ripple network, as I understood is still a bit lacking.
3810 2011-07-07 22:28:27 <Eliel_> if there was one client that supported both, it should help both projects.
3811 2011-07-07 22:28:43 <b4epoche_> bitcoin needs a cute little video like Ripple has on their homepage
3812 2011-07-07 22:29:18 <b4epoche_> but instead Alice giving Bob apples and Bob giving Alice biscuits, Bob give Alice weed and Alice gives herself to Bob
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3815 2011-07-07 22:30:02 <justmoon> Eliel_, hmm, I think we should go more in the direction of creating exchanges between ripple and bitcoin so people can move money back and forth
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3817 2011-07-07 22:30:20 <justmoon> a need for a combined client first has to emerge
3818 2011-07-07 22:31:08 TD has joined
3819 2011-07-07 22:31:34 <justmoon> right now I don't see it, I'm still skeptical about ripple, since I don't really know how they can manage credit risk or do collection
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3823 2011-07-07 22:33:42 <b4epoche_> enforce with DDoS!!
3824 2011-07-07 22:34:00 pumpkin has joined
3825 2011-07-07 22:34:17 <b4epoche_> you don't play nice and the ripple network DDoS's you
3826 2011-07-07 22:34:39 puhc has joined
3827 2011-07-07 22:35:20 <b4epoche_> but 2004 to 2009 for a prototype and it still obscure?
3828 2011-07-07 22:36:51 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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3830 2011-07-07 22:37:11 <Eliel_> justmoon: the way I see it, ripple can help with a couple of rough spots in bitcoin. First, transaction volume. Ripple would cut down on the need for small transactions, helping the network scale better. Two, Ripple transactions are intrinsically faster which is very desireable for small transactions.
3831 2011-07-07 22:38:05 rhett has joined
3832 2011-07-07 22:38:06 <Eliel_> justmoon: as far as I understand it, ripple network doesn't take part in enforcing the debts. Only in recording them.
3833 2011-07-07 22:38:12 <rhett> ;;bc,stats
3834 2011-07-07 22:38:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135218 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1869 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 10 hours, 55 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1518087.83626942
3835 2011-07-07 22:38:40 Incitatus has joined
3836 2011-07-07 22:38:59 <rhett> the difficulty is going down?
3837 2011-07-07 22:39:08 <b4epoche_> the whole ripple thing sounds bad...  who are you going to 'trust'?  friends?  family?  sounds like a great way to lose friends and piss off family
3838 2011-07-07 22:39:14 <cuddlefish> rhett: only because btcguild is down
3839 2011-07-07 22:39:43 <rhett> crazy
3840 2011-07-07 22:39:49 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: well, you do trust your friends up to a certain amount, no?
3841 2011-07-07 22:39:58 agricocb has joined
3842 2011-07-07 22:40:00 <rhett> why don't people solo mine in the meantime?
3843 2011-07-07 22:40:17 <Eliel_> rhett: my guess, too much trouble to set it up
3844 2011-07-07 22:40:38 <rhett> what about other pools?
3845 2011-07-07 22:40:41 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3846 2011-07-07 22:40:52 <Eliel_> rhett: it takes effort to monitor that the miner is working.
3847 2011-07-07 22:41:00 <Eliel_> needs automation if it's to happen
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3851 2011-07-07 22:44:51 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: but basically, if you have friends you're in danger of losing over trusting them in ripple, I'd claim they're not really friends.
3852 2011-07-07 22:45:04 molecular has joined
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3854 2011-07-07 22:46:11 <b4epoche_> Eliel_:  it's not that you don't trust them, it just puts strain on a relationship...  owing or loaning money to friends and family is just asking for trouble
3855 2011-07-07 22:46:14 <molecular> is this normal: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png
3856 2011-07-07 22:46:17 <iz> there are tons of friends that i know better than to lend money to, b/c it would ruin the friendship..  i think that effect could happen
3857 2011-07-07 22:46:20 <iz> yeah
3858 2011-07-07 22:46:40 <cuddlefish> iz: ... so don't lend to them
3859 2011-07-07 22:47:07 <Eliel_> yep, simple solution, don't give them any ripple credence.
3860 2011-07-07 22:47:23 <b4epoche_> and when one you do trust loses his job?
3861 2011-07-07 22:47:49 <nanotube> Eliel_: then they pout because you didn't give them any ripple credit.
3862 2011-07-07 22:47:50 <Eliel_> on the other hand, some people who aren't really friends but can be trusted to pay back loans, they might get more trust than any of your friends.
3863 2011-07-07 22:47:50 <nanotube> heh
3864 2011-07-07 22:48:08 <nanotube> that said, i've thought a bout ripple a bunch myself, it's a neat system.
3865 2011-07-07 22:48:34 <nanotube> but the realities of people's stupidity may intervene it its theoretical awesomeness. :)
3866 2011-07-07 22:48:42 <Eliel_> it's basically, if you wouldn't loan them money, don't trust them in ripple :)
3867 2011-07-07 22:49:02 <nanotube> right
3868 2011-07-07 22:49:23 <iz> if you have people IRL that you trust to loan money to/from.. what do you need ripple for?
3869 2011-07-07 22:49:23 bk128 has joined
3870 2011-07-07 22:49:35 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: well, I could turn the question to, what would you do if someone you've loaned money to loses his job?
3871 2011-07-07 22:49:38 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3872 2011-07-07 22:50:13 <iz> like.. if you have ppl you trust that much, you don't need ripple.. and if you don't have ppl you trust that much.. you can't use ripple
3873 2011-07-07 22:50:14 <Eliel_> if you wouldn't loan them money, that person doesn't belong in your ripple trust list.
3874 2011-07-07 22:50:15 <b4epoche_> Eliel_:  I don't know, it would put me a tough spot which is why I wouldn't have loaned the money in the first place
3875 2011-07-07 22:50:29 riush has joined
3876 2011-07-07 22:51:03 <Eliel_> iz: ripple isn't for doing stuff with the people you trust. It's for doin stuff with people you don't trust directly but do trust through a chain of friends.
3877 2011-07-07 22:51:12 <iz> oh, i see
3878 2011-07-07 22:51:14 <b4epoche_> Eliel_:  I'm curious, how old are you?
3879 2011-07-07 22:51:20 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: 30
3880 2011-07-07 22:52:09 <b4epoche_> the chain of trust is even worse...  so you go to your friend to get the money your friend's friend owes?
3881 2011-07-07 22:52:24 kermit has joined
3882 2011-07-07 22:53:09 <b4epoche_> I knew better than to loan money when I was 30 ;-)
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3885 2011-07-07 22:53:41 <Eliel_> basically, to do business with person C that your friend knows, you'd agree to owe money to your friend and your friend would agree to owe that same amount to C.
3886 2011-07-07 22:53:44 <b4epoche_> anyway, I think from a purely psychological pov, ripple is doomed
3887 2011-07-07 22:53:53 <Eliel_> except ripple would make that automatic, up to the limit
3888 2011-07-07 22:54:13 <Eliel_> up to the limit you've specified for certain person.
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3892 2011-07-07 22:54:22 <b4epoche_> Eliel_:  I understand how it works...  IOU's are just not good
3893 2011-07-07 22:54:29 RenaKunisaki has joined
3894 2011-07-07 22:54:57 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: then you don't have much choice but to use money directly instead of loaning money.
3895 2011-07-07 22:55:03 karnac has joined
3896 2011-07-07 22:55:10 <Eliel_> but ripple would work for many.
3897 2011-07-07 22:56:01 <b4epoche_> I'm sticking to it's a terrible idea and most people will realize that and ultimately it'll die
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3899 2011-07-07 22:56:40 Insti has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3900 2011-07-07 22:57:46 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: I do agree that I don't see as good prospects for it as I see for bitcoin.
3901 2011-07-07 22:58:18 <Eliel_> precisely because it requires people to trust eachother.
3902 2011-07-07 22:58:34 <b4epoche_> and I do understand that it would be great if we were all emotionless robots.  I'd much rather be paying interest to, say, my parents than a bank
3903 2011-07-07 23:00:18 <Eliel_> but the idea would be to keep the limits low enough that the amounts owed would not make for that much strain.
3904 2011-07-07 23:01:02 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
3905 2011-07-07 23:01:57 <Eliel_> besides, it's unlikely you'd have to settle those debts directly. the Debts might vanish as you do or sell something to someone else who happens to have the right path to you.
3906 2011-07-07 23:02:04 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3907 2011-07-07 23:02:50 <Namegduf> "might" and "vanish" and "happens" are not words I like in the area of finance
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3910 2011-07-07 23:03:44 <Eliel_> even if your friend wanted the debt paid immediately, you could most likely move it to someone else, provided you're not trying to freeride.
3911 2011-07-07 23:04:22 moa7 has joined
3912 2011-07-07 23:04:58 <midnightmagic> sipa: Your graphs for speed-lin-2k and speed-lin-10k seem to be broken and go back right to 01/01/09 instead of just 2k and 10k..?
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3914 2011-07-07 23:05:40 <Namegduf> Eliel_: I think "I would lend money to" and "I would borrow myself to lend money to" are very very different categories.
3915 2011-07-07 23:06:02 <Namegduf> A lot of people I know fall into the former and I'm not even that fussed if it gets repaid any time soon. Basically no one falls into the latter.
3916 2011-07-07 23:08:55 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3917 2011-07-07 23:09:02 <Eliel_> Namegduf: I think the biggest misconception is that it'd be a frequent happening to have to pay off debts. Ripple is a system to automate the settling of debts. The sum of what you're owed and loaned would stay the same unless you yourself take a loan from someone or borrow money to someone.
3918 2011-07-07 23:09:30 <Eliel_> so, unless you're living at the limits of what your friends allow you to owe them, you wouldn't hit problems.
3919 2011-07-07 23:09:40 quellhorst has quit (Quit: leaving)
3920 2011-07-07 23:09:42 <Namegduf> Eliel_: Myself being owed money has little connection to my ability to pay loans, though.
3921 2011-07-07 23:09:44 folklore has joined
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3923 2011-07-07 23:10:14 <Namegduf> This sounds like trading around of very dubious debt. :P
3924 2011-07-07 23:11:27 <Eliel_> why dubious?
3925 2011-07-07 23:11:34 <Eliel_> what is dubious about it?
3926 2011-07-07 23:12:14 <Namegduf> The, er, likelyhood that a lot of friends of a lot of people won't pay their debts back.
3927 2011-07-07 23:12:32 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3928 2011-07-07 23:12:52 <Eliel_> why do people keep expecting to give untrustworthy people ripple trust? ... I don't get it.
3929 2011-07-07 23:12:59 <Namegduf> Because other people will.
3930 2011-07-07 23:13:10 twobitcoins has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3931 2011-07-07 23:13:16 RBecker has joined
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3933 2011-07-07 23:13:22 <Namegduf> The "borrow from a friend of a friend" system effectively trades debt onwards
3934 2011-07-07 23:13:47 brooss__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3935 2011-07-07 23:13:53 <moa7> what about "Loom", anybody have experiences with that?
3936 2011-07-07 23:13:55 <Namegduf> The person who owes you money can only pay it conditional on other people paying him
3937 2011-07-07 23:14:02 brooss__ has joined
3938 2011-07-07 23:14:25 <Namegduf> You would NEVER get a real loan company to give someone a loan that they could only pay back if other loans got paid back to the borrower
3939 2011-07-07 23:14:30 <Namegduf> It just isn't reliable or safe income
3940 2011-07-07 23:14:55 BTCTrader has joined
3941 2011-07-07 23:15:11 p0s- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3942 2011-07-07 23:15:20 Netsniper has quit (Quit: Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. -Emma Goldman)
3943 2011-07-07 23:15:34 <moa7> https://loom.cc/
3944 2011-07-07 23:15:51 <Namegduf> In short, just because my friend, of a friend, of a friend thinks that their friend will pay them back, is no reason for me to want them to be able to borrow my money via a friend, and my friend to only be able to pay that back when they're paid back by their friend and when they're paid back by theirs.
3945 2011-07-07 23:16:30 <Eliel_> Namegduf: the whole idea of Ripple is that it _is_ the friend you're directly trusting who will pay it back if needed.
3946 2011-07-07 23:16:40 <Eliel_> if you can't trust that, then you can't ripple trust that friend.
3947 2011-07-07 23:16:49 <moa7> actually should just use loom.cc
3948 2011-07-07 23:17:11 <Eliel_> if they aren't willing to pay their debts regardless of whether their friends pay theirs.
3949 2011-07-07 23:17:14 <Namegduf> Eliel_: And if one of my friends doesn't, or can't, then I'm on the hook for it.
3950 2011-07-07 23:17:30 <Namegduf> That doesn't make sense.
3951 2011-07-07 23:17:48 <Namegduf> If my friend has the resources to pay their friends' debts for them
3952 2011-07-07 23:17:57 <Namegduf> Then why wouldn't they have been the one to lend them the money in the first place
3953 2011-07-07 23:18:17 <Eliel_> basically, if you trust someone enough to loan them money, you're taking the risk that they might not pay back.
3954 2011-07-07 23:18:18 <moa7> loom is trust-no-one ripple
3955 2011-07-07 23:18:19 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
3956 2011-07-07 23:18:32 <Namegduf> Right.
3957 2011-07-07 23:18:38 <moa7> kinda
3958 2011-07-07 23:18:53 <Eliel_> ripple allows you set the limit of how much you trust someone for.
3959 2011-07-07 23:18:58 <Eliel_> so it's not an all or nothing kind of thing
3960 2011-07-07 23:19:03 <Eliel_> you can, for example trust them for $5
3961 2011-07-07 23:19:14 <Namegduf> The problem is in the chaining thing.
3962 2011-07-07 23:19:56 <Namegduf> Is there any circumstance where I'd trust them for $X loaned through me, from another person, which I'd need to be able to pay back if I had to
3963 2011-07-07 23:20:13 <Namegduf> Where I wouldn't be equally equip to just lend them $X myself in the first place
3964 2011-07-07 23:20:16 <_W_> Namegduf, I don't see the difference, really
3965 2011-07-07 23:20:34 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3966 2011-07-07 23:20:48 <_W_> either you trust your friend with $X, regardless of what he does with them (lending them onwards or not) or you don't
3967 2011-07-07 23:21:32 HardDisk_WP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3968 2011-07-07 23:21:50 <Namegduf> _W_: I can't see a circumstance where a trustable person would lend onwards.
3969 2011-07-07 23:22:02 <_W_> really? Your friends have no friends but you?
3970 2011-07-07 23:22:17 <Namegduf> If they take $X and lend it onwards, they either are running the risk of being unable to pay back
3971 2011-07-07 23:22:21 <Namegduf> Or they have another $X anyway
3972 2011-07-07 23:22:22 <Eliel_> Namegduf: the real idea behind ripple is that it's really just a tabs keeping device that just utilized the trust networks so you don't have to trust someone you don't know.
3973 2011-07-07 23:22:27 <Namegduf> ANd could have lent it themselves
3974 2011-07-07 23:22:50 <Eliel_> you're not really expected to pay the debts in money except in unusual circumstances.
3975 2011-07-07 23:23:24 <Eliel_> you're expected to do things and people will agree to owe you and then those will end up canceling the times when you have agreed to we others
3976 2011-07-07 23:23:44 <Namegduf> That's an interesting idea.
3977 2011-07-07 23:24:09 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3978 2011-07-07 23:24:13 slux has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3979 2011-07-07 23:24:48 <b4epoche_> and it all spirals down to sex and drugs for payment
3980 2011-07-07 23:24:49 <Eliel_> having to settle ripple debts with actual money should be quite unusual.
3981 2011-07-07 23:25:38 callcc has joined
3982 2011-07-07 23:25:57 <_W_> ripple-pay works excellently for short-term instant bitcoin payments
3983 2011-07-07 23:25:58 <b4epoche_> the point is, in the real world, you hardly ever make transactions with friends/family or anyone you necessarily trust.  you transact with businesses.
3984 2011-07-07 23:26:16 Taveren93HGK has joined
3985 2011-07-07 23:26:35 <moa7> there is the favour economy
3986 2011-07-07 23:26:43 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: exactly and ripple seeks to use that trust to make you able to do close the same with nearly anyone.
3987 2011-07-07 23:26:45 <moa7> value transfers are just not necessarily monetary
3988 2011-07-07 23:26:50 sgornick has joined
3989 2011-07-07 23:26:53 <_W_> (since the "debt" is cancelled the moment there's enough confirmations of your transaction)
3990 2011-07-07 23:27:18 <b4epoche_> when was the last time Alice gave Bob some apples and Bob gave Alice some biscuits...  we don't live in that society anymore
3991 2011-07-07 23:27:35 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: those times are returning, like it or not.
3992 2011-07-07 23:27:50 <b4epoche_> I'd like it, but they are not
3993 2011-07-07 23:28:01 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel_: no they're not
3994 2011-07-07 23:28:23 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3995 2011-07-07 23:28:31 <b4epoche_> maybe in the little world of software development...  but certainly not generally
3996 2011-07-07 23:28:40 <_W_> Namegduf, think of it this way - if your friend came to you and said he'd vouched for one of his friends' payments, but that friend turned out to not be trusthworthy, and defaulted/defrauded, and now your friend needs help to cover what he vouched for, would you not help him out? (if not, then you don't trust him with any money in the ripple system)
3997 2011-07-07 23:28:41 <lfm> not even if you live in Greece?
3998 2011-07-07 23:28:49 <jrmithdobbs> alice will sell bob for a credit card txn made through her merchant account funded by bob's bakery income
3999 2011-07-07 23:28:58 <moa7> favour economy has never gone away, it just changes it form
4000 2011-07-07 23:29:00 <jrmithdobbs> s/sell bob/sell apples to bob/
4001 2011-07-07 23:29:11 <moa7> it happens right here on this forum
4002 2011-07-07 23:29:18 <denisx> that I get the bitcoins from genrating after 120 blocks is only a client thing, right?
4003 2011-07-07 23:29:21 <Namegduf> _W_: I would suggest he was foolish for lending money he didn't have.
4004 2011-07-07 23:29:22 <lfm> bob will sell Alice for some aplles
4005 2011-07-07 23:29:26 <denisx> or is it a network thing?
4006 2011-07-07 23:29:31 <b4epoche_> jrmithdobbs:  see my above example:  Bob sells Alice drugs, Alice sells self to Bob
4007 2011-07-07 23:29:36 <_W_> Namegduf, irrelevant
4008 2011-07-07 23:29:40 <Namegduf> _W_: I would probably THEN lend him money, but I would very much NOT want the default state for them to be doing that.
4009 2011-07-07 23:29:46 <cuddlefish> b4epoche_: it's the american dream!
4010 2011-07-07 23:29:48 <_W_> Namegduf, unless you mean that that alone is enough for you not to help your friend
4011 2011-07-07 23:29:48 <Namegduf> _W_: Which is the state it supports.
4012 2011-07-07 23:29:59 <moa7> you tell me something i didn't know or make a joke i like and the favour might/might not get returned
4013 2011-07-07 23:30:02 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: that's only because credit card txns are tracable and most governments frown on drugs
4014 2011-07-07 23:30:02 <Namegduf> Actually depending on the scale I might just give them the money
4015 2011-07-07 23:30:06 <_W_> Namegduf, I still don't see the distinction
4016 2011-07-07 23:30:07 <Namegduf> But eh.
4017 2011-07-07 23:30:14 <_W_> Namegduf, and ripple-pay supports that
4018 2011-07-07 23:30:22 <Namegduf> _W_: Loaning money you don't have is gambling with money you don't have.
4019 2011-07-07 23:30:24 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: otherwise alice would be selling her self for cc txns and using her cc to buy drugs from bob
4020 2011-07-07 23:30:33 Netsniper has joined
4021 2011-07-07 23:30:36 <b4epoche_> true, ture
4022 2011-07-07 23:30:37 <Namegduf> _W_: Loaning money you DO have is gambling with money you do have.
4023 2011-07-07 23:30:38 <Namegduf> See now?
4024 2011-07-07 23:30:40 <Eliel_> Namegduf: there you go, you trust that person up to $X :)
4025 2011-07-07 23:30:46 <_W_> Namegduf, but it /is/ money you have - or at least money you could get if your friends helped you out with as much as they've said they could
4026 2011-07-07 23:31:06 <Namegduf> _W_: That is not money they have, it's money they could borrow.
4027 2011-07-07 23:31:19 <b4epoche_> jrmithdobbs:  did you see video at http://ripple-project.org/
4028 2011-07-07 23:31:20 <_W_> Namegduf, and chances are that breaks in trust are rare and will be short term anyway
4029 2011-07-07 23:31:21 <jrmithdobbs> fuck a bunch of that shit
4030 2011-07-07 23:31:23 <Eliel_> Namegduf: with ripple system, those two are basically the same.
4031 2011-07-07 23:31:25 <moa7> how much it is worth if your friend hooks you up with great business/job contact?
4032 2011-07-07 23:31:26 <Namegduf> _W_: That's a guess.
4033 2011-07-07 23:31:29 <jrmithdobbs> i'm not vouching for noone
4034 2011-07-07 23:31:34 <Namegduf> Eliel_: That's what's *wrong* with it.
4035 2011-07-07 23:31:35 <jrmithdobbs> never do business with friends or family
4036 2011-07-07 23:31:37 <jrmithdobbs> always end badly.
4037 2011-07-07 23:31:46 <b4epoche_> [18:26:16] <b4epoche_> bitcoin needs a cute little video like Ripple has on their homepage
4038 2011-07-07 23:31:46 <b4epoche_> [18:26:51] <b4epoche_> but instead Alice giving Bob apples and Bob giving Alice biscuits, Bob give Alice weed and Alice gives herself to Bob
4039 2011-07-07 23:31:49 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: no should i watch it
4040 2011-07-07 23:31:59 <_W_> Namegduf, well if you don't trust your friends to be good judges of who /they/ trust, don't give them any ripple allowance :)
4041 2011-07-07 23:32:16 <Eliel_> or start out with very little
4042 2011-07-07 23:32:18 <Namegduf> _W_: That requires said good trust to extend onwards forever.
4043 2011-07-07 23:32:23 <Namegduf> That's not how trust works.
4044 2011-07-07 23:32:24 <_W_> Namegduf, not really
4045 2011-07-07 23:32:25 <Eliel_> only increasing it as they show they can handle that much
4046 2011-07-07 23:32:47 <b4epoche_> jrmithdobbs:  the video establishes how naive ripple is
4047 2011-07-07 23:32:52 <Eliel_> it's not an all or nothing thing.
4048 2011-07-07 23:33:04 <Namegduf> It means not only do I need to trust them to be good judges of character, it requires I trust their judge of who is a good judge of character, and onwards indefinitely
4049 2011-07-07 23:33:19 <Namegduf> At some point in such a sequence, it will fail.
4050 2011-07-07 23:33:25 <CheapScotsman> Anyone have any idea why I can connect to slush and deepbit with OpenCL but not Pheonix? I keep getting a perpetual "connecting..." message
4051 2011-07-07 23:33:34 <Eliel_> no, the whole point is that you'll trust them to take the hit for their errors in judgement
4052 2011-07-07 23:34:05 <Namegduf> Eliel_: You mean the "gambling with money they don't have" error?
4053 2011-07-07 23:34:08 <_W_> Namegduf, thing is, it isn't /you/ who will end up paying for a violation of trust somewhere in the network
4054 2011-07-07 23:34:15 <gmaxwell> IIRC in ripple you don't propagate trust, you propagate debit. It's still daft.
4055 2011-07-07 23:34:22 <_W_> Namegduf, chances are *you too* will have friends that trust you with money
4056 2011-07-07 23:34:30 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: this is such naive BS
4057 2011-07-07 23:34:52 <gmaxwell> E.g. I trust alice, alice trusts bob.  Bob buys from me, alice pays me. If bob doesn't pay alice, thats alices damn problem.
4058 2011-07-07 23:34:55 <_W_> Namegduf, so if you feel you have to trust throughout the chain, then the same logic works upwards, and you're without responsibility
4059 2011-07-07 23:35:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: fuck a bunch of that
4060 2011-07-07 23:35:09 <Namegduf> _W_: No, not really.
4061 2011-07-07 23:35:21 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i don't know bob, his ass is signing a contract or he's not getting shit
4062 2011-07-07 23:35:25 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
4063 2011-07-07 23:35:56 <Namegduf> _W_: If I have friends who are personally in a position to lend me money and trust me, I'll borrow from them directly.
4064 2011-07-07 23:35:58 <_W_> and anyway, ripple will probably work awesome even if you only allow friends as much as you're willing to straight out give them as a gift
4065 2011-07-07 23:36:08 <Namegduf> If not, I wouldn't ask them to lend me money they didn't *have*.
4066 2011-07-07 23:36:10 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: Eh, I think it's dumb for many reasons but not this one.  Why should you care? you've got an agreement with alice, she's going to cover bob.
4067 2011-07-07 23:36:17 <_W_> Namegduf, but that will have no utility in a payment network
4068 2011-07-07 23:36:19 <b4epoche_> and to claim it's a PayPal replacement is ludicrous
4069 2011-07-07 23:36:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: because i'd rather screw over someone i don't know than a friend
4070 2011-07-07 23:36:33 <Namegduf> _W_: What has no utilty?
4071 2011-07-07 23:36:39 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: is that wrong?
4072 2011-07-07 23:36:41 Jezzz_ has joined
4073 2011-07-07 23:37:10 <_W_> Namegduf, you loaning money directly, before you have an actual need for them
4074 2011-07-07 23:37:17 <_W_> Namegduf, not to mention the hassle involved
4075 2011-07-07 23:37:17 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats the premise for propagating debit rather than trust.
4076 2011-07-07 23:37:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: see but if alice never got paid, i'd feel bad
4077 2011-07-07 23:37:37 <moa7> screwing over someone is almost be definition wrong, no?
4078 2011-07-07 23:37:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: if i had to sue bob i wouldn't
4079 2011-07-07 23:37:53 Jezzz_ has left ("Leaving")
4080 2011-07-07 23:38:23 <Namegduf> I think it's an interesting idea on the repaying favours thing, do something for a friend and leave it without much fuss about it
4081 2011-07-07 23:38:28 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: I'm curious, what problems do you see in ripple?
4082 2011-07-07 23:38:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: make sense?
4083 2011-07-07 23:38:28 <CheapScotsman> Now I'm getting the error: "invalid literal for int() with base 10:" then the start of my password
4084 2011-07-07 23:38:38 <Namegduf> Until someone does you a favour that your friend did a favour
4085 2011-07-07 23:38:43 <Namegduf> And it's all canceled out
4086 2011-07-07 23:39:01 <gmaxwell> E.g. you can have long chains  A -> B -> C -> D -> E  and if anyone is a screwup only the person who trusted the screwup gets screwed.
4087 2011-07-07 23:39:13 <Namegduf> As a way of exchanging money it seems only useful for lending money you don't have, since if you had it you could lend directly
4088 2011-07-07 23:39:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, I do. Also—  If _you_ get screwed you're only out the cost, whereas if alice get's screwed she's out your price.
4089 2011-07-07 23:39:35 <b4epoche_> let me sum up:  ripple is not for the cynical
4090 2011-07-07 23:39:54 <Namegduf> gmaxwell: I don't really agree on the grounds that people who are perfectly trustable otherwise are a lot more likely to become screwups when something happens to their income.
4091 2011-07-07 23:39:59 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: I had a long debate about it in here a few weeks ago.
4092 2011-07-07 23:40:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: hadn't thought about that, but that's another good point
4093 2011-07-07 23:40:03 <Namegduf> Normally this is considered a sad fact of life.
4094 2011-07-07 23:40:13 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: yup, that was one issue I raised. My trust is highly conditional.
4095 2011-07-07 23:40:13 <_W_> b4epoche_, no one is *totally* cynical - we all trust some people with some small things
4096 2011-07-07 23:40:15 <Namegduf> But when the "something" is because they were gambling with money they didn't have...
4097 2011-07-07 23:40:31 <gmaxwell> E.g. I only trust you to pay me back if you're not about to do something stupid with the money.
4098 2011-07-07 23:40:46 <Namegduf> I trust people I lend money not to do something stupid with it
4099 2011-07-07 23:40:57 <Namegduf> Not particularly interested in a system which seems optimised for them to DO something with it
4100 2011-07-07 23:41:02 <Namegduf> i.e. lend it to someone else
4101 2011-07-07 23:41:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: does it make me an awful person that the first thing i thought about while watching that video was "wonder if i could troll some strangers into trusting me and buy a bunch of shit i can't afford with that"
4102 2011-07-07 23:41:23 Breign has quit ()
4103 2011-07-07 23:41:28 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: Get pictures with boobs in them.
4104 2011-07-07 23:41:29 <gmaxwell> I don't. If they were that trustworthy they'd never need to borrow.  I trust them not to lie and say they are going to be responsible when instead they're planning on doing something dumb.
4105 2011-07-07 23:41:35 <moa7> getting that way i'd say
4106 2011-07-07 23:41:44 <_W_> there's lots of people I'd trust with small-ish amounts of money totally unconditionally
4107 2011-07-07 23:41:45 <Namegduf> Hmm, fair enough.
4108 2011-07-07 23:41:54 <b4epoche_> and who is going to ding your credit rating when you're delinquent?
4109 2011-07-07 23:41:59 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: i just don't lend money, basically for the reasons gmaxwell just laid out
4110 2011-07-07 23:42:10 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: I don't lend money I actually intend to get back
4111 2011-07-07 23:42:15 <Eliel_> jrmithdobbs: I guess that'd be about equally likely as if you could troll some strangers to buy you stuff at the mall.
4112 2011-07-07 23:42:16 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: So basically the same thing
4113 2011-07-07 23:42:16 <cuddlefish> _W_: gimme a bitcoin
4114 2011-07-07 23:42:18 <jrmithdobbs> that's not lending at all
4115 2011-07-07 23:42:19 <jrmithdobbs> ya
4116 2011-07-07 23:42:25 <_W_> cuddlefish, you're not among them
4117 2011-07-07 23:42:25 <Eliel_> promising to pay it back to them
4118 2011-07-07 23:42:28 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: if you can't— if the system's usage is too selective with trust— then it's vulnerable to shunning.  E.g. the few people who know you well enough to trust you, decide to detrust you because they find out that you're gay or whatever.
4119 2011-07-07 23:42:31 <cuddlefish> _W_: ;_:
4120 2011-07-07 23:43:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and there doesn't seem to be any way to mitigate that from what i'm looking at
4121 2011-07-07 23:43:14 <b4epoche_> cuddlefish:  my former student is working to make a robotic cuddlefish...
4122 2011-07-07 23:43:40 twobitcoins has joined
4123 2011-07-07 23:43:58 <_W_> anyway, I see the point people are making about not lending money to friends - and I see a simple solution as well. Simply never "loan" friends money, but give them gifts instead. Ripple-pay still works. If the friends give you an equal gift back later whenever they use your gift, great - if not, you only gave them enough that you'd be willing to give them anyway
4124 2011-07-07 23:44:03 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: strangers at the mall won't because there is little reason for you to ask except scamming. Ripple makes the relationship normal.
4125 2011-07-07 23:44:11 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: i have a couple people that "owe" me money, but i never expect to see it and never did
4126 2011-07-07 23:44:22 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: and wouldn't have given it to them if i needed it back
4127 2011-07-07 23:44:32 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: I've gotten paid back occasionally. I consider it a "nice surprise"
4128 2011-07-07 23:44:37 <jrmithdobbs> ya
4129 2011-07-07 23:44:48 <Namegduf> _W_: That's a sensible application.
4130 2011-07-07 23:44:50 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4131 2011-07-07 23:45:18 <gmaxwell> In any case, single stage ripple has existed for a long time without computers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
4132 2011-07-07 23:45:21 <Namegduf> Just a little karma tracker.
4133 2011-07-07 23:45:21 <b4epoche_> oops, s/cuddlefish/cuttlefish
4134 2011-07-07 23:45:35 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: lol i was trying to remember what that was called
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4136 2011-07-07 23:45:44 <Namegduf> I congratulate Ripple on establishing an ACTUAL debt economy, though
4137 2011-07-07 23:46:01 <cuddlefish> Namegduf: the US govmt beat them to it
4138 2011-07-07 23:46:07 <Namegduf> cuddlefish: Go away
4139 2011-07-07 23:46:14 <jrmithdobbs> ya why would congratulate them for that?
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4141 2011-07-07 23:46:50 <midnightmagic> hawala is that middle-east money-transfer system that the U.S. government seems to really hate.
4142 2011-07-07 23:47:07 <jrmithdobbs> not middle-east
4143 2011-07-07 23:47:12 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: Building a design for something that could sorta work (even if IMO it's not wise to use) that previously only featured in conspiracy theories
4144 2011-07-07 23:47:19 <jrmithdobbs> it's all over europe and africa as well
4145 2011-07-07 23:47:22 <moa7> small rural communities run on gift/favour economy ... sometimes up to large amounts of value
4146 2011-07-07 23:47:26 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: It's a little impressive, shows that it's possible.
4147 2011-07-07 23:47:29 <jrmithdobbs> but yes, the US does not like it because it can't be traced
4148 2011-07-07 23:47:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: the government documents I read on it doesn't seem to indicate that they hate it. It's sometimes used for criminal things and they don't like that of course.
4149 2011-07-07 23:47:50 <jrmithdobbs> also, the US is not alone in this
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4153 2011-07-07 23:49:57 <midnightmagic> i could've sworn I read they've described it as a terrorist-financing network because of its unreported record-keeping and the possibility of laundering through it, but.. meh. can't remember where now.
4154 2011-07-07 23:50:00 <moa7> authoritarians do not like it
4155 2011-07-07 23:50:09 <b4epoche_> Ripple might work for the Amish...  if they allowed themselves to be 'connected'
4156 2011-07-07 23:51:01 <nanotube> b4epoche_: well, there's nothing for it but to give it a try, eh? :)
4157 2011-07-07 23:51:31 <BTCTrader> authoritarians do not like it == read, democracies
4158 2011-07-07 23:51:34 <moa7> hawala accepting bitcoin yet?
4159 2011-07-07 23:51:54 <Eliel_> b4epoche_: one thing about ripple I'm not sure if you realized yet. If the system ends up widely used, it might not even be sensible to attempt to pay the ripple debts back unless they're reasonably large because you would be swishing back and forth between owing money and being owed money by the same person very frequently. Up to the limit you specified.
4160 2011-07-07 23:52:08 <moa7> not liberal democracies
4161 2011-07-07 23:52:28 <BTCTrader> liberal democracy's are the most authoritarian regimes in the planet
4162 2011-07-07 23:52:51 <moa7> yes, liberal in name only
4163 2011-07-07 23:53:11 <BTCTrader> humanitarian totalitarianism = the yankee way
4164 2011-07-07 23:53:33 <moa7> dev board==no politics?
4165 2011-07-07 23:53:58 <Namegduf> There are no liberal democracies
4166 2011-07-07 23:54:12 <Namegduf> AFAIK
4167 2011-07-07 23:54:46 <Namegduf> There are lots of nations with a basically social liberal setup, but all manage to meld in extra authoritarianism
4168 2011-07-07 23:55:13 <moa7> mostly to control the money supplu and economy
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4171 2011-07-07 23:56:03 <moa7> "i care not who makes the rules but let me control the money" is the achilles heel of "liberal" democracy
4172 2011-07-07 23:56:07 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: one thing ripple seemed vulnerable to was maxflow shortfalls.   E.g. Vendors Va-Vz trust Bob and Aliceto repay $500 each. Bob and Alice trusts Random persons Ra-Rz for $50 each. Each Ra-Rz trusts a Sybil SRa-SRz for $50 each.  The sybils buy something from each of the vendors, making most of the the Ra-Rz's fold, making Bob and Alice fold, leaving the vendors out in the cold.
4173 2011-07-07 23:56:28 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: each level of trust made sense on a 1:1 basis, but didn't when it was added up.
4174 2011-07-07 23:57:08 <Namegduf> What I think will happen in practice
4175 2011-07-07 23:57:51 <Namegduf> Is that every so often, someone somewhere will trust someone they shouldn't for too much
4176 2011-07-07 23:58:03 <Namegduf> And said someone will proceed to take full advantage of it, then disappear
4177 2011-07-07 23:58:11 <Namegduf> And there will be limited to no recourse.
4178 2011-07-07 23:58:22 <Namegduf> Well, just no.
4179 2011-07-07 23:59:06 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: yea, ask AnonX how well that whole trust thing worked.
4180 2011-07-07 23:59:12 <moa7> but that is just node failure not network failure
4181 2011-07-07 23:59:37 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: I didn't quite understand that scenario. What does it mean that the Ra-Rz people would fold?
4182 2011-07-07 23:59:47 <Namegduf> Not pay their debts.
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