1 2011-07-12 00:00:28 <diki> a tough question...
2 2011-07-12 00:00:41 <diki> it could help, it might not
3 2011-07-12 00:01:12 <sipa> no, my question is what do you intend it to improve?
4 2011-07-12 00:01:27 <moa7> infinite but machine bound
5 2011-07-12 00:01:36 <diki> cpu efficiency?
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7 2011-07-12 00:01:43 <diki> even if by 1%
8 2011-07-12 00:01:48 <sipa> diki: it won't
9 2011-07-12 00:01:55 <diki> proof?
10 2011-07-12 00:02:11 <sipa> the only thing it does it decrease the number of getwork calls
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12 2011-07-12 00:02:29 <sipa> so it can help on a very very slow network connection
13 2011-07-12 00:02:31 <diki> how do you imagine it will work?
14 2011-07-12 00:02:51 <diki> it's not a rhetorical question
15 2011-07-12 00:03:01 <sipa> your cpu is already *always* hashing
16 2011-07-12 00:03:03 <diki> i am just asking to see if you got what i am talking about
17 2011-07-12 00:03:18 <sipa> there is not more hashes you can try
18 2011-07-12 00:03:49 <sipa> however clever you are by reusing getworks for several cpus
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21 2011-07-12 00:04:12 <sipa> i agree, it will help reducing the number of getworks
22 2011-07-12 00:04:15 <diki> it's not reusing, it's one getwork request, and each threads works on a nonce range
23 2011-07-12 00:04:19 <diki> from X to XX
24 2011-07-12 00:04:25 <sipa> yes i understand
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26 2011-07-12 00:04:40 <sipa> you split one getwork over many cpus
27 2011-07-12 00:04:49 <AlonzoTG> OpenMP is probably the best technique for that kind of programming.
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29 2011-07-12 00:04:58 <AlonzoTG> It's quite devilish in how easy it makes it.
30 2011-07-12 00:05:02 <sipa> instead ofdoing a getwork per cpu threaf
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37 2011-07-12 00:07:57 <diki> well...for now, ckolivas is going to think about it(if he's going to implement it or not)
38 2011-07-12 00:08:02 <diki> and we'll see how it goes
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42 2011-07-12 00:16:00 <gmaxwell> 16:46 < diki> gmax:you're also a lost cause, reason is, i'm not in america or wherever you are
43 2011-07-12 00:16:31 <gmaxwell> Plonk!
44 2011-07-12 00:16:46 <nus> diki, you seem to be betting that the nonces distribution is skewed to the end of getwork
45 2011-07-12 00:16:49 <diki> plonk,monk or whatever
46 2011-07-12 00:17:02 <diki> nus:skewed?
47 2011-07-12 00:17:22 <nus> diki, "...before it tries ALL them nonces"
48 2011-07-12 00:17:36 <gmaxwell> nus: we had some argument before, diki fails at math and somehow things work is "lost" when you don't search the whole nonce range, thus my 'lost cause' comment.
49 2011-07-12 00:18:13 <diki> well, how about this: some day..when i have free time, i would make my cpu mine, but store all them raw getworks
50 2011-07-12 00:18:18 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: how are nonceranges persisted
51 2011-07-12 00:18:35 <gmaxwell> nus: there was a whole bunch of nonsense where he was going claiming he was goingto mine all the blocks or whatever because there was a /pattern/ to the winning nonces, or whatever stupidity was in flavor that day.
52 2011-07-12 00:18:50 <nus> ouch
53 2011-07-12 00:18:54 <diki> gmax:lies
54 2011-07-12 00:19:01 <diki> i never claimed i would mine ALL the blocks
55 2011-07-12 00:19:02 <diki> never
56 2011-07-12 00:19:06 <diki> dont spread FUD
57 2011-07-12 00:19:27 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: holy shit, I just broke Bitcoi
58 2011-07-12 00:19:28 <cuddlefish> LOOK
59 2011-07-12 00:19:37 <cuddlefish> all the hashes of the winning blocks start with a bunch of zeroes
60 2011-07-12 00:20:00 <upb> thats not a pattern in the nonces tho ;)
61 2011-07-12 00:20:01 <gmaxwell> And perhaps I'm a little sour because I've wasted a couple hours because I'm terrible at remembering names and didn't realize that I was spending time on the same unteachable person more than once. :-/
62 2011-07-12 00:20:06 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: haha.
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64 2011-07-12 00:21:56 <gmaxwell> but thats unfair, diki is at least a little teachable: he's learned to be coy about his crazy ideas, because we ignore him if he's upfront about why he wants to do $random_crazy_thing. :)
65 2011-07-12 00:23:04 <diki> so how about it, i will make my cpu mine, no changes to the code whatsoever except that it will store the getworks. When it hasn't found any hashes in those getworks(cause it didnt have time to try the whole nonce space) i will then feed them to the gpu miner somehow, and i am pretty sure it will find some hashes in them getworks(where the cpu failed)
66 2011-07-12 00:23:40 <sipa> yes, sure
67 2011-07-12 00:23:59 <Joric> damn python i thought it would be easy to import a private key but it lacks necessary EC bingings
68 2011-07-12 00:24:02 <gmaxwell> You'll find, on average, the same number of solutions per the number of hashes performed. But it doesn't matter if they are N hashes in 10 getworks or N hashes in 100 getworks.
69 2011-07-12 00:24:27 <sipa> but instead of working on those nonces, your cpu worked on other nonces, belonging to another getwork
70 2011-07-12 00:24:33 <sipa> but it was working
71 2011-07-12 00:24:36 <moa7> all the hashes of the winning blocks start with a bunch of zeroes ... i noticed that pattern too
72 2011-07-12 00:24:53 <sipa> and since each hash has the same chance
73 2011-07-12 00:25:03 <sipa> you didn't lose anything
74 2011-07-12 00:25:08 <gmaxwell> moa7: they also all consist of 0-9,a-f characters only!
75 2011-07-12 00:25:16 <Joric> looks like the only solution is to import those manualy from dylib
76 2011-07-12 00:25:26 <moa7> hmmm, maybe there is something in this
77 2011-07-12 00:25:38 <diki> unfortunately it's a paradox, i might have not lost anything, but what if i had
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80 2011-07-12 00:26:06 <gmaxwell> diki: it's not a paradox. But what if nonce zero of the next getwork,which you didn't get, was a full solution?
81 2011-07-12 00:26:20 <sipa> all that matters is how many nonces you try
82 2011-07-12 00:26:38 <gmaxwell> gah. not going to waste more time aruging with the cognitive trap.
83 2011-07-12 00:26:39 <diki> and is that not what i am basically talking about?
84 2011-07-12 00:26:49 <sipa> it is irrelevant whether those come from one or many getworks
85 2011-07-12 00:27:05 <moa7> roll the rice as fast as you can
86 2011-07-12 00:27:30 <moa7> s/rice/dice ... accent issue
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88 2011-07-12 00:27:37 <sipa> if you don't see this, i can't help you any further
89 2011-07-12 00:27:56 <cuddlefish> moa7: lol
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100 2011-07-12 00:32:26 <moa7> who turned off /var/log/messages in natty? I want to burn them
101 2011-07-12 00:32:37 <diki> heehaw
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104 2011-07-12 00:39:16 <vrs> moa7: use syslog
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116 2011-07-12 00:45:44 <moa7> why would they change something like that ? ... not to mention pretentious little notes in system config files
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120 2011-07-12 00:47:57 <moa7> "# I like to have messages displayed on the console, but only on a virtual # console I usually leave idle." ... i mean who cares?
121 2011-07-12 00:48:59 <BlueMatt> those are from debian
122 2011-07-12 00:49:03 <BlueMatt> not ubuntu
123 2011-07-12 00:49:07 <moa7> what is debain using syslog or rsyslog?
124 2011-07-12 00:49:21 <BlueMatt> nfc
125 2011-07-12 00:49:28 <BlueMatt> does it matter?
126 2011-07-12 00:50:24 <moa7> only if you like sys messages to be where they are expected to be for the last 15 years I guess....
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129 2011-07-12 00:51:20 <BlueMatt> not like you cant configure rsyslog, syslog, whatever to output to /var/log/messages
130 2011-07-12 00:52:53 <moa7> sure ... but messing with default behaviour is asking for trouble
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132 2011-07-12 00:53:22 <BlueMatt> not like that has ever stopped ubuntu
133 2011-07-12 00:53:29 <moa7> nuff said.
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135 2011-07-12 00:53:53 <moa7> maybe it is in debain too?
136 2011-07-12 00:53:59 <BlueMatt> no clue
137 2011-07-12 00:54:08 <moa7> irrestible urge to tinker
138 2011-07-12 00:54:10 <BlueMatt> if its in debian, its been coming for a long time...
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160 2011-07-12 01:12:06 <gmaxwell> It's going to be sad if it turns out there is a bug making people pay fees when they shouldn't need to, and that bug was being masked because all the people getting hit went into omg-the-fees whining mode rather than hey-is-this-a-bug mode.
161 2011-07-12 01:15:32 <alexbobp> lol
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165 2011-07-12 01:19:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: my speculation: smaller miners wind up with a lot of ~0.01 btc transactions to them. when spending, that creates a huge TX.
166 2011-07-12 01:19:44 <jgarzik> thus, fees + whining
167 2011-07-12 01:20:20 <gmaxwell> Yes, thats been the case in some instances. And I've begged pools not to make small payouts to some positive effect. E.g. BTCguild now only lets you make one payout per day unless you're over 1btc balance.
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169 2011-07-12 01:21:15 <SeriousWorm> actually btcguild doesn't pay any fees
170 2011-07-12 01:21:33 <SeriousWorm> ever
171 2011-07-12 01:21:39 <SeriousWorm> at least that's what I've been told
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173 2011-07-12 01:23:15 <gmaxwell> SeriousWorm: pools usually don't, they'll mine their own txn. Thats not what jgarzik and I are talking about.
174 2011-07-12 01:23:36 <gmaxwell> SeriousWorm: its a question of what fees the pools cause their users by paying the users in pennies.
175 2011-07-12 01:23:45 <SeriousWorm> ah, right.
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177 2011-07-12 01:24:17 <gmaxwell> E.g. if the pool pays you in 0.01 increments and then you spend 50, you'll end up making a 60kbyte transaction that takes fees.
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179 2011-07-12 01:24:30 <IO-> mysql clustering services are a giant ugly hack
180 2011-07-12 01:24:30 <moa7> when was last record of spamming transactions?
181 2011-07-12 01:25:16 <SeriousWorm> i think the problem was if there were *no* anti spamming measures, if a spam attack occured, people would need to upgrade their clients, which takes some time, during which the network would/could be, well, under attack.
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184 2011-07-12 01:26:32 <moa7> ultimately it will be up to miners to decide on fees so clinging to client default solution is false economy
185 2011-07-12 01:27:49 <gmaxwell> SeriousWorm: there have been spam floods, but since they're now mostly pointless, there aren't so that there hasn't been one recently isn't a good metric.
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187 2011-07-12 01:28:16 <gmaxwell> moa7: not so, all nodes partipate in forwarding.
188 2011-07-12 01:28:58 <gmaxwell> moa7: I think you're making an error thinking that miner profits have anything to do with fees today. The 50 BTC reward so utterly dwarfs any reasonable fee that there can be _no_ "economy" related to fees.
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190 2011-07-12 01:29:21 <gmaxwell> Fees aren't about economy right nowâ they're just a reusable proof of work to thwart DOS attack.
191 2011-07-12 01:29:45 <gmaxwell> No different than if the system made you solve a hash puzzle in order to issue a new transaction, but more energy efficient.
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196 2011-07-12 01:32:29 <moa7> not what i was saying ... poor wording
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198 2011-07-12 01:33:10 <gmaxwell> Well we haven't yet come up with a way for the miners / network to communicate to users what fees will actually work.
199 2011-07-12 01:33:20 <gmaxwell> If we had that things would be better.
200 2011-07-12 01:33:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it'd be easy to add though
201 2011-07-12 01:34:15 <Diablo-D3> just make all tx require 1btc.
202 2011-07-12 01:34:18 <Diablo-D3> mwhahahahahaha
203 2011-07-12 01:34:38 <moa7> fee solution should scale whther btc = 0.01, 0.1, 1 10 100 or 1000 USD
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205 2011-07-12 01:35:02 <gmaxwell> dur. yes. Any kind of fixed fee works. What we have now also worksâ determinstic priority mapping ... except for the fee that it maps to, since we have no way of coordinating that.
206 2011-07-12 01:35:08 <moa7> wihtout hard-coded hacks
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208 2011-07-12 01:35:45 <gmaxwell> moa7: sadily, the network can't tell how valuable bitcoins are to people.
209 2011-07-12 01:36:08 <riush> couldn't the client track some recent transactions size/fee and see if they get accepted or not / how long it takes?
210 2011-07-12 01:36:30 <gmaxwell> No. :( because the client can't see what kind of behind the scenes dealmaking the miners have done.
211 2011-07-12 01:36:44 <gmaxwell> It also can't tell when a txn took weeks to get forwarded at all.
212 2011-07-12 01:37:28 <riush> oh, i see :/
213 2011-07-12 01:37:40 <gmaxwell> Re: dealmaking: for example, all sane miners mine their own transactions with no fees. So you might assume that you could get a no fee transaction through.
214 2011-07-12 01:38:23 <riush> would that transaction be relayed to the network before the block?
215 2011-07-12 01:38:25 <gmaxwell> We could have miners announce their fee policies in blocks they solve, but that doesn't tell you about relaying nodes.
216 2011-07-12 01:39:10 <gmaxwell> riush: btcguild's are. (thats one reason why e.g. they don't have $enormous fees since they are paid to themselvesâ don't want anyone else grabbing them! :) )
217 2011-07-12 01:39:30 <gmaxwell> putting them in the network also has the nice property of making the rx side see them right away.
218 2011-07-12 01:41:47 <gmaxwell> Personally I don't think updating the fees in the client software is really that bad. Yes, it's inelegant. But at the moment we have basically _zero_ incentive for people to upgrade, and its problematic. If occasional fee changes encourages upgrades, then so be it.
219 2011-07-12 01:42:17 <riush> thats a good point :)
220 2011-07-12 01:42:55 <moa7> gmaxwell: why does the network know how valuable bitcoins are to people to stop spamming?
221 2011-07-12 01:43:11 <moa7> *network needs to
222 2011-07-12 01:43:23 <knotwork> is there a -debug switch or plans for one?
223 2011-07-12 01:43:33 <BlueMatt> there are...many
224 2011-07-12 01:43:43 <knotwork> a whole lot of info goes into debug.log some people might not want or be able to make sense of
225 2011-07-12 01:44:33 <gmaxwell> moa7: Because of you use a 0.00000001 fee to stop spamming them a spammer will gladly pay it for the lulz. And if you had a 1 BTC fee then spam would be stopped it would make bitcoin very cost ineffective to use.
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228 2011-07-12 01:45:20 <gmaxwell> moa7: so the correct amount of "proof of work" to discourage spamming depends on the value: it needs to be so small that its painless for normal users, but large enough that it becomes painful when multiplied by thousands.
229 2011-07-12 01:45:24 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r761b431 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix race condition - http://bit.ly/q5EleV https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/761b4310ad8fb5e81b92d0b7a47ce5b93534ff2e
230 2011-07-12 01:46:39 <moa7> gmaxwell: but 0 fee transactions still go through
231 2011-07-12 01:46:46 <BlueMatt> noob C++ question from someone who needs sleep: how on earth is for (vector<int>::iterator it = v.begin(); it!=v.end(); ++it) { going to run on v.end()? seems like it will iterate over all in v except for the last?
232 2011-07-12 01:47:09 <gmaxwell> moa7: indeed, because the fees are not minimums, they're just imposed on txn that objectively look like something a spammer would send.
233 2011-07-12 01:47:38 <moa7> what is objective criterion for spam exactly?
234 2011-07-12 01:47:43 <gmaxwell> moa7: transactions which respend coin rapidly, and/or consist of small values, very small outputs, or which take a lot of data to represent.
235 2011-07-12 01:48:17 again is now known as tower
236 2011-07-12 01:48:44 <gmaxwell> value * age_of_inputs / txsize == priority, if priority less than 510000 or any output less than 0.01 then fee=max(configured fee, 0.0005) basically.
237 2011-07-12 01:49:33 <gmaxwell> IIRC the age is in seconds the size is in bytes and the value is the size of the inputs in base units.
238 2011-07-12 01:49:42 <moa7> "small" is relative term there
239 2011-07-12 01:49:47 <knotwork> BlueMatt the ++it comes after, so it did end before it got there
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241 2011-07-12 01:50:30 <BlueMatt> knotwork: does for all of a sudden not check its value before running each time?
242 2011-07-12 01:50:37 <knotwork> BlueMatt no wait, maybe it never does get there and it is a code bug
243 2011-07-12 01:50:38 <BlueMatt> I think I really need sleep...
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245 2011-07-12 01:50:56 <BlueMatt> that example is in every C++ code doc I can find and everywhere in Bitcoin...
246 2011-07-12 01:51:22 <forrestv> BlueMatt, .end() returns the pointer to the imaginary element after the last one
247 2011-07-12 01:51:22 <knotwork> BlueMatt aha, end is a pointer beyond the end of the structure
248 2011-07-12 01:51:25 <forrestv> not the actual last one
249 2011-07-12 01:51:36 <BlueMatt> oh, that makes no sense...
250 2011-07-12 01:51:42 <forrestv> yes it does
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252 2011-07-12 01:51:49 <forrestv> because then you can iterate like that! :p
253 2011-07-12 01:52:09 <BlueMatt> well it makes sense in this case, but end isnt an object??? that seems backwards
254 2011-07-12 01:52:10 <knotwork> they dont know what its the begin of so they call it the end of its predecessor
255 2011-07-12 01:52:47 <gmaxwell> Generally C++ has broken the C norm of using < everywhere and running one past. E.g. for(i=0;i<count;i++) ... so its all inconsistent in C++ apis.
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258 2011-07-12 01:53:46 <moa7> gmaxwell: thnx
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261 2011-07-12 01:54:47 <knotwork> can symlinks be devices so that one could do ln -s /dev/null debug.log ?
262 2011-07-12 01:54:50 <gmaxwell> moa7: indeed, small is relative, but this is why the process needs to know the value of bitcoin. Generally for small transactions you'd want to sendmany, or generally discourage them. Bitcoin isn't a micropayment system. Or rather, it's more micro than some things, but less micro than some people want for some applications.
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265 2011-07-12 01:55:19 <gmaxwell> knotwork: yes, but got knows how the thats going to work when the software tries to truncate debug.log. :)
266 2011-07-12 01:55:28 <knotwork> hahahah
267 2011-07-12 01:55:55 <knotwork> it does truncate it? under what circumstances?
268 2011-07-12 01:56:02 <gmaxwell> when it hits 1gbyte.
269 2011-07-12 01:56:24 <gmaxwell> (going from my memory, I might be a little incorrect)
270 2011-07-12 01:56:40 <gmaxwell> hm. I guess it wouldn't try to trucate /dev/null then? hm.
271 2011-07-12 01:56:59 <gmaxwell> I dunno, I'm normally trying to increase logging not decrease it! :)
272 2011-07-12 01:57:22 <moa7> need to know value of bitcoin wrt value of infrastructure implementing it
273 2011-07-12 01:57:30 <knotwork> shouldn't /dev/null not quite attain a size of 1gb, in normal use? :)
274 2011-07-12 01:57:40 Kiba` has joined
275 2011-07-12 01:58:04 <knotwork> I would wild ass guess /dev/null would be size zero or even null at all times
276 2011-07-12 01:58:24 <gmaxwell> yea. thus my "I guess it wouldn't try"
277 2011-07-12 01:58:25 <moa7> remove fiat denominator for better fee structure
278 2011-07-12 01:58:31 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
279 2011-07-12 01:58:35 <gmaxwell> well, try it and report back.
280 2011-07-12 01:59:02 <knotwork> its the mac users who need it, they have time machine macking backups every day
281 2011-07-12 01:59:02 <gmaxwell> some people proposed using difficulty to set the fees...
282 2011-07-12 01:59:06 cuddlefish has joined
283 2011-07-12 01:59:19 <knotwork> of course they can also configure their time machine but who ever configures stuff
284 2011-07-12 01:59:33 <gmaxwell> but I tried a couple "obvious" formulas on historic difficulties and I didn't think the results were sensible. Making the formula more complicated felt like over-fitting.
285 2011-07-12 02:00:04 <gmaxwell> knotwork: perhaps the bitcoin installer on mac could configure it for them?
286 2011-07-12 02:00:12 <knotwork> ooooooh nice idea
287 2011-07-12 02:00:28 <gmaxwell> (or at least offer to do so)
288 2011-07-12 02:00:43 <gmaxwell> The logs are sometimes helpful when users show up with "omg something isn't right"
289 2011-07-12 02:01:05 <gmaxwell> (especially since "give me all your data so I can try to reproduce it" isn't a valid tech support response in bitcoin land)
290 2011-07-12 02:01:51 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
291 2011-07-12 02:03:11 <moa7> yes, "Email me your wallet.dat file and I'll see if I can help" is tech. support first response byline
292 2011-07-12 02:04:09 asm_ is now known as asm
293 2011-07-12 02:04:34 <moa7> hmm difficulty to set the fees ....
294 2011-07-12 02:05:23 <moa7> *the minimum
295 2011-07-12 02:06:26 <gmaxwell> The idea being that difficulty goes up when bitcoin becomes more valuable. But sadly, it also goes up because computers get faster, even when the value doesn't change.
296 2011-07-12 02:08:02 <moa7> and network infrastructure != mining infrastructure
297 2011-07-12 02:08:32 <gmaxwell> yea. And storage, really.
298 2011-07-12 02:08:44 <moa7> that too ..
299 2011-07-12 02:08:49 <gmaxwell> The bigger danger of spam is that it can make the blockchain very bloated very fast.
300 2011-07-12 02:09:41 <gmaxwell> And that bloat _never_ goes away. We can only make it less awful by getting lite clients, but the network's security requires that there still be many full nodes.
301 2011-07-12 02:10:16 <gmaxwell> Adding 144MBytes/day to the blockchain right now would stink.
302 2011-07-12 02:10:33 mmoya has joined
303 2011-07-12 02:12:04 <gmaxwell> (or rather, it would rock if we were getting that much _real_ _useful_ economic activity. A good problem to have. It would suck if it were just some anti-social jerkwad stuffing the blockchain for lulz (or payoffs by people who don't like bitcoin))
304 2011-07-12 02:12:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: did you hear me yesterday?
305 2011-07-12 02:13:38 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
306 2011-07-12 02:13:46 <gmaxwell> No.
307 2011-07-12 02:14:10 <gmaxwell> I've mostly given up on reading the backlog in the bitcoin channels. Too much offtopic crud. :(
308 2011-07-12 02:14:27 <Diablo-D3> I added multipool
309 2011-07-12 02:15:20 <gmaxwell> oh? spiffy!
310 2011-07-12 02:15:39 <Diablo-D3> so now people can quit bitching
311 2011-07-12 02:15:51 <gjs278> I thought there was a limit on block size
312 2011-07-12 02:15:57 <gjs278> per block
313 2011-07-12 02:16:14 <gjs278> does it calculate out to 144mbytes a day?
314 2011-07-12 02:16:36 <gmaxwell> gjs278: yes.
315 2011-07-12 02:16:46 <gmaxwell> (assuming 6 blocks an hour)
316 2011-07-12 02:16:50 <gjs278> gotcha
317 2011-07-12 02:17:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: although Ive run into a problem
318 2011-07-12 02:17:41 <Diablo-D3> I only use one pool :<
319 2011-07-12 02:18:34 <gmaxwell> heh. Mine against multiple accounts. :)
320 2011-07-12 02:18:35 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
321 2011-07-12 02:19:01 <gmaxwell> (at least you're dogfooding them)
322 2011-07-12 02:19:03 <gmaxwell> er then
323 2011-07-12 02:20:31 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
324 2011-07-12 02:21:08 freewil has left ()
325 2011-07-12 02:21:54 freewil has joined
326 2011-07-12 02:22:16 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
327 2011-07-12 02:26:48 <osmosis> why does the blockchain take extra long to load at the end?
328 2011-07-12 02:26:50 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
329 2011-07-12 02:27:41 <gmaxwell> osmosis: because the blocks have become larger.
330 2011-07-12 02:28:13 <gmaxwell> osmosis: also â because the larger blocks are triggering your peers to disconnect you.
331 2011-07-12 02:28:41 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
332 2011-07-12 02:28:49 <gmaxwell> (probably not just also, that likely accounts for most of the slowness you've seen unless you've been lucky enough to get all .24 peers)
333 2011-07-12 02:29:16 <gmaxwell> Sadly most nodes are not running .24
334 2011-07-12 02:29:44 Beccara has joined
335 2011-07-12 02:31:43 skeledrew has joined
336 2011-07-12 02:33:03 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
337 2011-07-12 02:33:13 <gmaxwell> Think anyone would cry if I spam attacked testnet?
338 2011-07-12 02:34:31 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: if you want to spam you should spam weeds or groupcoin nets they could use more testing
339 2011-07-12 02:35:44 <gmaxwell> Well, I already have a testnet wallet with zillions of transactions from other testing which I intentionally kept off the network.
340 2011-07-12 02:35:57 <gmaxwell> I'm curious to see what happens if I release them.
341 2011-07-12 02:36:07 <gmaxwell> (and I think testnet is due for a reset anywaysâ¦)
342 2011-07-12 02:36:12 citiz3n has joined
343 2011-07-12 02:36:16 mmoya has joined
344 2011-07-12 02:40:53 <nanotube> gmaxwell: re: fees and difficulty: while it's true that increases come not only from price bumps but also hardware improvements (e.g., advent of gpu mining), 'over the long term' one might expect that difficulty would track value reasonably well
345 2011-07-12 02:42:41 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
346 2011-07-12 02:43:05 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
347 2011-07-12 02:43:37 <gmaxwell> Yes, eventually. But it doesn't work now.
348 2011-07-12 02:44:05 <nanotube> what do you mean, doesn't work?
349 2011-07-12 02:45:00 <nanotube> that if we start with diff 1 and price... 0.003 and minfee 0.01 and go to diff 1.5m and price 14, we don't end up with a minfee of something reasonable?
350 2011-07-12 02:45:18 <nanotube> (or whatever diff was when bitcoins started trading for real usd)
351 2011-07-12 02:45:31 <nanotube> or even, whatever the price was when minfee was instituted)
352 2011-07-12 02:45:55 <gmaxwell> I mean if you pick a simple formula (your choice) and apply it to difficulty in the last for months, you won't find any forumula which produces reasonable fees along the whole span. (obviously you can add terms until it fits but it'll probably break in the future)
353 2011-07-12 02:46:02 <gmaxwell> You can fit any two points with a line. :)
354 2011-07-12 02:46:32 <nanotube> well, when was minfee instituted? and what was the diff and price at the time?
355 2011-07-12 02:47:08 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh I added some of your quotes and others from irc into my article on my Multicoin post http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.msg347203#msg347203 mostly in the disadvantages section hope you all don't mind
356 2011-07-12 02:47:08 pyro__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
357 2011-07-12 02:47:41 <sacarlson> I find your comments very useful
358 2011-07-12 02:48:19 <gmaxwell> nanotube: http://tvori.info/bitcoin/charts/historical.png the green line is mining income assuming 100MH. If you made the fee a constant factor of difficulty thats the shape it would have.
359 2011-07-12 02:48:40 <gmaxwell> (shape in terms of 'value' assuming mtgox price represents value)
360 2011-07-12 02:48:56 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: weeds testnet method to control spam is that it forces a fee and it has limited distrubution
361 2011-07-12 02:49:05 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: No problem. Thanks.
362 2011-07-12 02:49:09 mmoya has joined
363 2011-07-12 02:49:37 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well... seems reasonable :)
364 2011-07-12 02:49:51 <gmaxwell> 0_o. The desired behavior would be a flat line. :)
365 2011-07-12 02:49:54 <sacarlson> but in the long run I guess if they send to them self and mine themself it would still get spamed
366 2011-07-12 02:50:18 <nanotube> gmaxwell: it's "pretty flat". nobody in his right mind would expect a perfect flat line
367 2011-07-12 02:50:22 <gmaxwell> nanotube: that swings around in a range of 4:1
368 2011-07-12 02:50:25 <gmaxwell> Well, sure.
369 2011-07-12 02:50:28 <nanotube> pretty reasonable
370 2011-07-12 02:50:30 <nanotube> as i said, long term
371 2011-07-12 02:50:48 <nanotube> it beats the hell of the main devs deciding what the fee is by quorum. :)
372 2011-07-12 02:51:21 <nanotube> not that i think .0005 was a bad choice :)
373 2011-07-12 02:51:32 <gmaxwell> Eh, I don't think it does. But it wouldn't preclude updating the factor the way we update the fees.
374 2011-07-12 02:51:43 <gmaxwell> It's harder to remember what it is, however. Which is bad.
375 2011-07-12 02:52:06 <gmaxwell> Also, sadly, most of the volitality there comes from the exchange rate, so e.g. we couldn't filter it out.
376 2011-07-12 02:52:10 <nanotube> client will tell you what i tis.
377 2011-07-12 02:52:15 karnac has joined
378 2011-07-12 02:52:23 <moa7> if the fee was agreed by a formula the whining is somewhat disarmed
379 2011-07-12 02:52:26 <nanotube> we don't need to filter it out.
380 2011-07-12 02:52:35 <moa7> minfee
381 2011-07-12 02:52:42 <nanotube> moa7: yea, that's the idea
382 2011-07-12 02:52:47 pyro_ has joined
383 2011-07-12 02:52:57 <gmaxwell> right, but the system being kinda-inexplicable is already a serious problem: its part of the reason why people think it's an unconditional minimum, because they don't understand how its selectively applied.
384 2011-07-12 02:53:30 <nanotube> "people" will get used to it.
385 2011-07-12 02:53:35 <moa7> call it anti-spam network insurance due
386 2011-07-12 02:53:40 <moa7> instead of minfee
387 2011-07-12 02:53:48 <gmaxwell> There is also the point I raised earlerâ we don't have much incentive to upgrade, periodic fee adjustments are one of the few.
388 2011-07-12 02:54:05 <gmaxwell> yea "minfee" is super unfortunate naming.
389 2011-07-12 02:54:08 <nanotube> in the long term, most "people" won't be using a bitcoin client, because people suck at securing their own computer.
390 2011-07-12 02:54:22 <gmaxwell> well, I'm concerned with the 1 year time horizon.
391 2011-07-12 02:54:49 <gmaxwell> and frankly the fee whining has burned a fair amount of my patience with the bitcoin community. ::shrugs::
392 2011-07-12 02:54:54 <moa7> what about 1 year?
393 2011-07-12 02:55:12 <gmaxwell> e.g. one year is too soon for 'most people' to have moved to things like web wallets.
394 2011-07-12 02:55:37 <nanotube> once the trojans really come out en masse... it won't be a pretty sight...
395 2011-07-12 02:55:47 <nanotube> fwiw, i haven't seen any fee whining
396 2011-07-12 02:55:57 <nanotube> well, any that's worth mentioning, anyway hehe
397 2011-07-12 02:56:04 <gmaxwell> A couple of times these fee arguments have left me feeling like "you know, what, do what you want and I'll just track down your node and DOS it until its out of memory over and over again and then we can discuss this again"
398 2011-07-12 02:56:17 <infinitev> lol
399 2011-07-12 02:56:27 <nanotube> haha
400 2011-07-12 02:56:40 <moa7> just a lot of noise over is it or isn't it free ?
401 2011-07-12 02:56:44 <AlonzoTG> Do you know what's double-plus uncool?
402 2011-07-12 02:56:51 <AlonzoTG> 3,000 LINE SOURCE FILES!!!!
403 2011-07-12 02:57:00 <AlonzoTG> =\
404 2011-07-12 02:57:08 <AlonzoTG> The sweet spot for Java files is around 600 lines.
405 2011-07-12 02:57:09 <nanotube> AlonzoTG: you know what helps dealing with those? the scrollbar! :)
406 2011-07-12 02:57:20 <infinitev> haha @ nanotube
407 2011-07-12 02:57:30 <jgarzik> extra exclamation points help
408 2011-07-12 02:58:08 <gmaxwell> Are you complaining about bitcoin? ... the whole program is only about 25kloc. It's tiny.
409 2011-07-12 02:58:33 Stellar has joined
410 2011-07-12 02:58:38 <AlonzoTG> That's more that 3x the biggest I've ever written. =\
411 2011-07-12 02:58:49 wardearia has joined
412 2011-07-12 02:58:54 <infinitev> i think he's complaining that he's too lazy to read the source
413 2011-07-12 02:58:55 <AlonzoTG> I'm having a real headache with my rewrite.
414 2011-07-12 02:59:04 <AlonzoTG> I'm trying to figure out exactly what needs to be global,
415 2011-07-12 02:59:18 <kreal-> some borrow me a testnet bitcoin address.
416 2011-07-12 02:59:20 <gmaxwell> er, well, nothing ever needs to be global. :)
417 2011-07-12 02:59:34 <AlonzoTG> Mostly I'm starting with the bitcoin protocol itself, but I realized that I need to get some infrastructure in place before I can implement the protocol.
418 2011-07-12 02:59:36 <jgarzik> that will fall naturally out of your design, and depends largely on your own code
419 2011-07-12 02:59:42 <gmaxwell> It's not much of a rewrite if you don't get to make those decisions on your own. :)
420 2011-07-12 02:59:43 <jgarzik> -> globals
421 2011-07-12 02:59:51 <AlonzoTG> Well, Bitcoin has lots of globals,
422 2011-07-12 02:59:53 <AlonzoTG> =\
423 2011-07-12 03:00:06 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: no. the current client implementation does, which is different.
424 2011-07-12 03:00:10 <AlonzoTG> My daemon will have a few carefully selected globals such as the utility that deals with the net...
425 2011-07-12 03:00:15 <gmaxwell> and all those statics.. oy.
426 2011-07-12 03:00:16 <AlonzoTG> Yeah, that's what I meant.
427 2011-07-12 03:00:18 <kreal-> nevermind
428 2011-07-12 03:00:26 <infinitev> *sigh*
429 2011-07-12 03:00:30 <AlonzoTG> Statics are OK.
430 2011-07-12 03:00:35 <AlonzoTG> If you use them right.
431 2011-07-12 03:00:47 <jgarzik> blanket statements are OK. if you use them right.
432 2011-07-12 03:00:52 <AlonzoTG> =P
433 2011-07-12 03:01:05 <gmaxwell> They're globals with namespace scoping, and annoying for 90% of the reasons globals are annoying ::shrugs::
434 2011-07-12 03:01:11 <nanotube> kreal-: what do you mean to 'borrow a testnet address' ?
435 2011-07-12 03:01:14 <AlonzoTG> I'm thinking about 1 thread per peer,
436 2011-07-12 03:01:24 <AlonzoTG> so that means all the critical stuff needs to be reentrant.
437 2011-07-12 03:01:32 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha
438 2011-07-12 03:01:50 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: can you think of another P2P program that uses one thread per peer, and has a large number of peers?
439 2011-07-12 03:01:57 phantomcircuit is now known as phantom
440 2011-07-12 03:01:58 <kreal-> nanotube: nevermind.
441 2011-07-12 03:02:00 <jgarzik> a professional, well-debugged P2P program that is
442 2011-07-12 03:02:11 <kreal-> just needed an address to perform validate on :)
443 2011-07-12 03:02:16 phantom has quit (Quit: Clever quit message!)
444 2011-07-12 03:02:18 <nanotube> ah heh ic
445 2011-07-12 03:02:30 <jgarzik> kreal-: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
446 2011-07-12 03:02:52 <kreal-> jgarzik: heh yes
447 2011-07-12 03:03:12 phantomcircuit has joined
448 2011-07-12 03:03:39 <AlonzoTG> I don't know how that would work. =\
449 2011-07-12 03:03:50 infinitev is now known as infinitevs
450 2011-07-12 03:03:58 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
451 2011-07-12 03:04:19 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: most programs use async I/O
452 2011-07-12 03:04:32 <AlonzoTG> I'm really new to sockets.
453 2011-07-12 03:04:35 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: thread per connection is expensive, and potentially DoS'able if you're not careful
454 2011-07-12 03:04:42 <AlonzoTG> In any event, I'll need some kind of thread pool.
455 2011-07-12 03:04:55 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: don't look for the tool before the solution
456 2011-07-12 03:05:01 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: find the solution, the tool will be obviuos
457 2011-07-12 03:05:04 <jgarzik> *obvious
458 2011-07-12 03:05:15 <infinitevs> you guys are way too nice ;)
459 2011-07-12 03:05:20 <AlonzoTG> ????
460 2011-07-12 03:05:22 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: design your data structures first
461 2011-07-12 03:05:29 <AlonzoTG> hmmm
462 2011-07-12 03:05:53 <Kiba`> I like how my job benefit my hobby and my hobby benefit my job
463 2011-07-12 03:05:53 <AlonzoTG> I'm not completely sure what I'll need to record yet, which lead me to spy on the existing implementation, which lead me to my comment about 3,000 lines of code.
464 2011-07-12 03:06:09 <AlonzoTG> I'm hoping to get a job by doing well on this implementation.
465 2011-07-12 03:06:12 <AlonzoTG> =\
466 2011-07-12 03:06:15 <AlonzoTG> =(
467 2011-07-12 03:07:22 <kreal-> aagh I cant make brackes anymore.
468 2011-07-12 03:07:24 <kreal-> meh to tired.
469 2011-07-12 03:07:44 freewil has left ()
470 2011-07-12 03:08:24 Jkessler has joined
471 2011-07-12 03:09:27 <AlonzoTG> Shockingly, the book in front of me actually covers async IO,
472 2011-07-12 03:09:47 * AlonzoTG puts it on the top of his reading stack.
473 2011-07-12 03:10:12 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
474 2011-07-12 03:10:25 <AlonzoTG> Usually, when someone mentions something like that, I don't have anything that even breathes a word about it in an entire library of computer books. =\
475 2011-07-12 03:12:07 <gmaxwell> Get better books. ;)
476 2011-07-12 03:12:44 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
477 2011-07-12 03:12:50 <AlonzoTG> Sometimes that's not possible.
478 2011-07-12 03:13:07 <AlonzoTG> For example when I was trying to write an operating system, I was in dire need of a deeper understanding of the linker,
479 2011-07-12 03:13:14 <AlonzoTG> At that time, no such book had been written.
480 2011-07-12 03:13:20 <AlonzoTG> It wasn't available until ten years later. =\
481 2011-07-12 03:13:25 <JFK911> you tried to write an operating system without understanding linking?
482 2011-07-12 03:13:35 <AlonzoTG> =\
483 2011-07-12 03:13:42 <shLONG> Right my friends
484 2011-07-12 03:13:43 <AlonzoTG> I was very young. =P
485 2011-07-12 03:13:47 <JFK911> dude man ld!
486 2011-07-12 03:14:00 <AlonzoTG> I fucking printed the ld manual,
487 2011-07-12 03:14:01 <JFK911> well back then man pages were probably in binders on a shelf
488 2011-07-12 03:14:07 <JFK911> oh, beaten.
489 2011-07-12 03:14:11 <AlonzoTG> It was written in moonspeak, it contained nearly zero information.
490 2011-07-12 03:14:39 <AlonzoTG> In my experience, GNU project manuals are worse than useless,
491 2011-07-12 03:14:50 <JFK911> well the source code is there why do you need manual?
492 2011-07-12 03:14:56 <AlonzoTG> they contain no conceptual information, and the information they do contain is so out of date as to be an outright lie.
493 2011-07-12 03:15:06 <JFK911> AT&T published a toolchain too.
494 2011-07-12 03:15:09 <shLONG> Have you ever felt you wanted to make a programmer related facebook status but didnt in fear of looking nerdy? Well join my new group Programming Talk !! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Programming-Talk/245909775419785 :D Here we programmers are free to express ourselves with other like minded people, please support my dream to create a programmer haven! :D
495 2011-07-12 03:15:20 <jgarzik> who needs manuals when you have source code :)
496 2011-07-12 03:15:29 * jgarzik hasn't purchased a manual in over a decade.
497 2011-07-12 03:15:59 <AlonzoTG> It takes much too long to parse source code, especially when there is more than 3,000 lines in a file. =\
498 2011-07-12 03:16:00 cuddlefish has joined
499 2011-07-12 03:16:12 <AlonzoTG> Usually main.cpp is 200 lines...
500 2011-07-12 03:16:17 <AlonzoTG> In this program it is more than 3,000
501 2011-07-12 03:16:27 <IO-> after fighting the NDB mysql clusters for days i've come to the conclusion that it offically sucks
502 2011-07-12 03:16:33 <JFK911> haha my small c programs are 3000 lines
503 2011-07-12 03:16:40 <JFK911> and im a crap programmer
504 2011-07-12 03:17:08 <IO-> a simple HA (heartbeat) active/passive cluster with a SAN for storage actually works in production and performs
505 2011-07-12 03:17:08 <gmaxwell> well, c!=cpp.
506 2011-07-12 03:17:08 Backburn has quit ()
507 2011-07-12 03:17:29 <JFK911> well i still have about 2500 lines that are nothing more than a comment or an {
508 2011-07-12 03:18:31 <jgarzik> yeah, with C++ and boost, 3000 lines will get you "hello, world" and not much else
509 2011-07-12 03:18:55 <AlonzoTG> I'd like to submit a TODO for trunk: move all classes in main.h and main.cpp to their own .h and .cpp files.
510 2011-07-12 03:19:21 <AlonzoTG> I could do it right now...
511 2011-07-12 03:19:43 <AlonzoTG> But then the code doesn't build on my machine.
512 2011-07-12 03:21:25 sattoshi has joined
513 2011-07-12 03:23:29 <JFK911> oh look who's here
514 2011-07-12 03:23:31 moa7 has left ()
515 2011-07-12 03:23:48 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
516 2011-07-12 03:23:50 rethaw has joined
517 2011-07-12 03:24:27 * Zarutian does a double take.
518 2011-07-12 03:25:26 <sacarlson> AlonzoTG: your welcome to try that on MultiCoin but then how do we stay in sync with bitcoin changes?
519 2011-07-12 03:27:44 justmoon has joined
520 2011-07-12 03:29:01 <AlonzoTG> The book I have in front of me sez that assynchronous IO is experimental and the authors say that they don't know of any unix implementations that implement it for sockets, they only mumble some stuff about it as a hypothetical.
521 2011-07-12 03:29:46 <gmaxwell> nanotube: your argument on the forum with JoelKatz re fees is misplaced.
522 2011-07-12 03:29:54 <nanotube> gmaxwell: how so?
523 2011-07-12 03:30:14 <gmaxwell> nanotube: since size is directly determined by inputs and outputs, for large txn you can compute a marginal fee per input/output pretty easily.
524 2011-07-12 03:30:27 <gmaxwell> Which is what he's saying, and his math is right.
525 2011-07-12 03:30:52 brunner has joined
526 2011-07-12 03:30:53 <nanotube> yes, but doesn't the priority score also depend on tx age?
527 2011-07-12 03:30:56 <nanotube> input age
528 2011-07-12 03:31:40 <gmaxwell> It's not a question of priority, priority only matters for free txn, which jumbo transactions are disqualified from being due to being jumbo.
529 2011-07-12 03:32:00 <nanotube> and jumbo is, any tx > 27k or some such?
530 2011-07-12 03:32:26 <gmaxwell> Yea, something like that. I'd have to go look.
531 2011-07-12 03:33:02 <Diablo-D3> [10:16:11] <gmaxwell> (at least you're dogfooding them)
532 2011-07-12 03:33:08 <gmaxwell> Really the tiny payouts are not great. Why not increase the difficulty so that slow miners won't get a share every round? Their average returns will still be the same, but the network won't be taxed with tiny payouts.
533 2011-07-12 03:33:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well I tested it, but all the pools suck dick
534 2011-07-12 03:33:33 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, one can always break the consolidations up into several, to stay under the 'egregious-fee-required' threshold
535 2011-07-12 03:33:45 <upb> AlonzoTG: doesnt epoll qualify as asyncrhonous io ?
536 2011-07-12 03:34:19 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, that could be done - the assumption is that there will be different pools with different difficulties.
537 2011-07-12 03:34:22 <Diablo-D3> your mom qualifie--wait, no she doesnt
538 2011-07-12 03:34:30 sattoshi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
539 2011-07-12 03:34:43 * Diablo-D3 adds slushpool to his shit
540 2011-07-12 03:34:53 <gmaxwell> nanotube: it's still loading up the network, even if it gets buy the current fee structure.
541 2011-07-12 03:35:02 <Diablo-D3> lol nanotubes
542 2011-07-12 03:35:04 <nanotube> gmaxwell: if someone wants to set up a pool with low difficulty, can't stop them. ideally, people won't :)
543 2011-07-12 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> Ideally your pool solution should be less harmful to network health than the pools in every way. :)
544 2011-07-12 03:35:12 <Diablo-D3> nanotuuuuuube
545 2011-07-12 03:35:16 <Diablo-D3> nanotuba.
546 2011-07-12 03:35:21 <Diablo-D3> the plural of nanotube
547 2011-07-12 03:35:26 <gmaxwell> nanotube: well, the software defaults are powerful motivators.
548 2011-07-12 03:35:39 <AlonzoTG> BUCKMINSTERFULERINE!
549 2011-07-12 03:35:39 <nanotube> so you think 1e-4 is too low of a difficulty?
550 2011-07-12 03:35:44 <upb> Diablo-D3: well i'd be interested in your argument :)
551 2011-07-12 03:35:51 <Diablo-D3> upb: about what?
552 2011-07-12 03:35:52 <nanotube> i mean, 1e-4*currentdifficulty
553 2011-07-12 03:36:02 <upb> not about my mom but epoll
554 2011-07-12 03:36:12 <Diablo-D3> upb: oh, just dont use epoll directly
555 2011-07-12 03:36:24 <Diablo-D3> use one of the one or two C libs that wrap the native async method
556 2011-07-12 03:36:38 <nanotube> heya Diablo-D3 ;)
557 2011-07-12 03:36:56 <upb> thats not an argument, a wrapper doesnt make it more async
558 2011-07-12 03:37:06 <Diablo-D3> no Im just saying
559 2011-07-12 03:37:07 <Diablo-D3> do it
560 2011-07-12 03:37:17 [Tycho\ has joined
561 2011-07-12 03:37:22 <Diablo-D3> I prefer not to write barebones platform specific code
562 2011-07-12 03:37:38 <Diablo-D3> I mean, fuck, I'm doing quasi-async code in Java
563 2011-07-12 03:37:47 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yea, ... 1e-2 would be more interesting... I meanâ 100x better than solomining without pool weaknesses would be attractive to a lot of people.
564 2011-07-12 03:38:02 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
565 2011-07-12 03:38:38 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, i wouldn't have any problems with that as 'default' suggested value.
566 2011-07-12 03:39:19 <Diablo-D3> btw
567 2011-07-12 03:39:23 <Diablo-D3> you know whats attractive to people?
568 2011-07-12 03:39:25 brunner1 has joined
569 2011-07-12 03:39:26 <Diablo-D3> destroying the largest pools
570 2011-07-12 03:39:28 <gmaxwell> personally I'd make users modify the source to make it much smaller than 1e-3 or so... ::shrugs:: but I'm not writing it. :)
571 2011-07-12 03:39:42 brunner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
572 2011-07-12 03:40:14 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
573 2011-07-12 03:40:21 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: going to add a solution witholding mode to your miner?
574 2011-07-12 03:40:21 <nanotube> gmaxwell: neither am i, yet. hehe. :) there seems to be a somewhat similar-approach distributed pool that actually has some poc code already: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313.0
575 2011-07-12 03:40:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ...
576 2011-07-12 03:40:36 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: huh.
577 2011-07-12 03:40:45 <gmaxwell> Is there a memorypool explorer for testnet like http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ ?
578 2011-07-12 03:40:53 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: seriously though
579 2011-07-12 03:40:56 <jgarzik> I think "people" like large pools
580 2011-07-12 03:40:58 <Diablo-D3> why mine on a big pool
581 2011-07-12 03:40:58 <jgarzik> which is a shame
582 2011-07-12 03:41:03 <Diablo-D3> when you can mine on 50 small pools
583 2011-07-12 03:41:13 skeledrew has joined
584 2011-07-12 03:41:25 <jgarzik> network effect. big pool is simple and predictable.
585 2011-07-12 03:41:34 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: more pools will equal lower variance.
586 2011-07-12 03:41:59 <nanotube> jgarzik: well, it's also about trust. at this point, you can be fairly certain that deepbit and slush won't walk away with your mined coins.
587 2011-07-12 03:42:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thats good, right?
588 2011-07-12 03:42:10 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes.
589 2011-07-12 03:42:18 <nanotube> jgarzik: but $newpool that $randomjoe just started... is a wildcard.
590 2011-07-12 03:42:19 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what the upper limit of my code is
591 2011-07-12 03:42:23 <Diablo-D3> its probably thousands of pools
592 2011-07-12 03:42:41 rethaw has quit (Quit: 12ie2qD4iR9C67enJKLDanrTdJmFwiVDD7)
593 2011-07-12 03:42:41 <nanotube> walkoff, security problems, reliability/stability problems... you don't know what you're walking into with a newly started pool.
594 2011-07-12 03:42:41 vorlov has joined
595 2011-07-12 03:42:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well, they also think mining is strictly and unconditionally a race. I had a lot of people respond to suggestions that they move off deepbit with the strong instance that it will make them a lot more money.
596 2011-07-12 03:43:09 <gmaxwell> nanotube: eh, walkoff is more attractive when you're bigger.
597 2011-07-12 03:43:11 rethaw has joined
598 2011-07-12 03:43:23 <rethaw> eligius is really cool
599 2011-07-12 03:43:33 <rethaw> i really enjoy their model
600 2011-07-12 03:43:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, eligius doesn't keep your balance, for the most part.
601 2011-07-12 03:43:39 <nanotube> gmaxwell: not really - if you can make 150btc a day (when you're deepbit), you won't sacrifice that by grabbing 5000btc once.
602 2011-07-12 03:43:43 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wait wait wait
603 2011-07-12 03:43:44 <Diablo-D3> hold up
604 2011-07-12 03:43:52 <Diablo-D3> strictly and unconditionally it IS a race
605 2011-07-12 03:43:59 <Diablo-D3> whoever flips the most coins wins
606 2011-07-12 03:44:08 <gmaxwell> ::sigh::
607 2011-07-12 03:44:28 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: but it is not true that being in a bigger pool, you'll make more btc with a given amount of hashrate.
608 2011-07-12 03:44:36 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: no not quite
609 2011-07-12 03:44:43 <Diablo-D3> you make more over infinite time solo mining
610 2011-07-12 03:44:47 <gmaxwell> If you flip 10x faster. You'll make 10x more. Yes. But the mental model of a race is "if the other guy is 10x faster I'll lose _every time_"
611 2011-07-12 03:44:58 <gmaxwell> I'm not talking solo mining.
612 2011-07-12 03:45:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: there are different kinds of races
613 2011-07-12 03:45:39 <gmaxwell> I'm saying, e.g. people insisted that they'd make much less at eligius or btcguild because the smaller pools were not fast enough to win the race against the big pool.
614 2011-07-12 03:45:40 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: well assuming both pools are fast enough to generate several blocks within a single difficulty-adjustment period... should be the same.
615 2011-07-12 03:45:58 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: depends on how much the pool loses
616 2011-07-12 03:46:13 <nanotube> how much /what/ the pool loses?
617 2011-07-12 03:46:37 <gmaxwell> meh, don't repeat the X per difficulty fable.
618 2011-07-12 03:46:55 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: btc
619 2011-07-12 03:47:01 <nanotube> how do you lose btc?
620 2011-07-12 03:47:05 <nanotube> gmaxwell: what fable? :)
621 2011-07-12 03:47:09 <gmaxwell> Thats not actually true, the difficulty changes for everyone, so it doesn't create differential expected value for varrious alternative choices.
622 2011-07-12 03:47:11 <Diablo-D3> pay them to people whove never produced a block
623 2011-07-12 03:47:46 <gmaxwell> nanotube: your expected return on a share worth of hasing is 50/difficulty no matter which way you mine.
624 2011-07-12 03:48:29 <gmaxwell> Nowâ you might want to have a collective pool of some size or another, in order to get the variance to a level you find acceptable. And thats good and fine, but it's a question of risk tolerance, not expected payout.
625 2011-07-12 03:48:46 <Diablo-D3> theres also that
626 2011-07-12 03:48:47 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
627 2011-07-12 03:48:51 <gmaxwell> (I'm ignoring orphans, which are a bit of a race, but they're rare enough that they mostly done matter and are more an issue of node health)
628 2011-07-12 03:49:02 <Diablo-D3> how much the pool either takes, or offsets to maintain payout rate
629 2011-07-12 03:49:06 <sacarlson> I think this pool method with the adition of escrow transaction to distibute might be cool http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313.0
630 2011-07-12 03:49:18 somuchwin has joined
631 2011-07-12 03:49:33 <sacarlson> I mean the p2p escrow from groffer
632 2011-07-12 03:49:41 magn3ts has quit (Quit: Leaving)
633 2011-07-12 03:49:43 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: yea, I suggested the escrow in that thread.
634 2011-07-12 03:49:59 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh I guess I didn't read down that far
635 2011-07-12 03:50:41 <knotwork> Diablo-D3 does the wiki page have link to your latest version of miner?
636 2011-07-12 03:50:52 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: dunno, I dont use the wiki
637 2011-07-12 03:50:56 <nanotube> gmaxwell: in the case of forever-increasing difficulty, it's possible to have a very small chance to ever generate anything, even at infinity.
638 2011-07-12 03:51:04 <knotwork> where do you put laest version then?
639 2011-07-12 03:51:10 <Diablo-D3> where it always goes
640 2011-07-12 03:51:30 <knotwork> I have no idea where that is, first post of thread didnt seem to say
641 2011-07-12 03:51:32 <gmaxwell> nanotube: sure. And a pool could also generate nothing. Or you could be mining solo on a single 386 an generate 10 blocks.
642 2011-07-12 03:51:42 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya that sounds good http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg276580#msg276580
643 2011-07-12 03:52:14 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
644 2011-07-12 03:53:05 <gmaxwell> nanotube: But thats not a difference in expected payout, thats a difference in varianceâ and you rationally decide that unusually low payouts are far worse than unusually high payouts are good, so they don't cancel each other out in terms of your actual utility, even though they cancel out mathmatically to produce the average.
645 2011-07-12 03:53:16 <nanotube> gmaxwell: indeed. and i'm just saying that you may want to mine in a pool that is more likely to give you /something/ rather than nothing. :) of course a pool would have to be really small in order to have a >50% chance of never generating anything.
646 2011-07-12 03:53:50 <gmaxwell> nanotube: what you're laboring under is the infinite time interpretation of rare events. Which is a crap mental model, because as you observe it fails for non-stationary statistics.
647 2011-07-12 03:53:58 karnac has joined
648 2011-07-12 03:54:39 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yea yea okay, but we started this silly tangent when I thought you were saying that a pool had to be sufficiently big to match the average payout. Thats not so.
649 2011-07-12 03:55:05 <gmaxwell> It has to be acceptably big to match your perfered idea of risk, and you hope that generalizes to other people.
650 2011-07-12 03:55:14 <nanotube> gmaxwell: how so? isn't it reasonable to say that if you're mining with a cpu at say, 1000khps, and assume that difficulty will increase at 10% per period forever, that your chance of never generating anything even at infinity is something like 90% ?
651 2011-07-12 03:55:50 <nanotube> no, i wasn't saying anything about average payout of a pool ;)
652 2011-07-12 03:56:19 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yes, sure, but that change of generating nothing is cancled out by your chance of having really good returns. So e.g. if there were a million of you making the same decision in parallel, on average you'd all get the expected return (the amount a feeless perfect pps pool would give you)
653 2011-07-12 03:56:20 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
654 2011-07-12 03:56:52 <nanotube> well of course. expected value is the same regardless of whether you're in a pool or solo
655 2011-07-12 03:57:02 <gmaxwell> it's just that the average would be unequally distributed, and in fact there is a neat argument that if you only have 1000khps you should be _solo_ mining.
656 2011-07-12 03:57:03 <nanotube> (minus pool fee, and minus extra network lag for the getworks)
657 2011-07-12 03:57:44 <nanotube> hehe what's the neat argument? wouldn't you have to assume risk-affinity in order for it to make sense?
658 2011-07-12 03:57:47 <gmaxwell> Because the pool returns (even from an ideal feeless pps pool) from 1000khps now won't make a damn difference in the quality of your life in the future.
659 2011-07-12 03:57:57 <nanotube> though i guess that's pretty much what people actually do exhibit, when they play a lottery :)
660 2011-07-12 03:58:07 <gmaxwell> It's a return compariable to skiping lunch for a few days.
661 2011-07-12 03:58:19 <gmaxwell> Well lottery still has negative ev. This has positive.
662 2011-07-12 03:58:21 <nanotube> unless 1btc becomes == 1million usd :)
663 2011-07-12 03:58:38 <nanotube> no, not if you count electricity costs
664 2011-07-12 03:58:42 <nanotube> it's negative ev then.
665 2011-07-12 03:58:43 <gmaxwell> Then you could still skip the hamburger for a few days and buy a BTC.
666 2011-07-12 03:58:55 <nanotube> hehe yea
667 2011-07-12 03:59:05 <gmaxwell> well, right actually it's postive ev on cpu mining _still_ if you have one of the more efficient cpus and cheapish power.
668 2011-07-12 03:59:39 <gmaxwell> But ... your 1000khps might just solve you a couple blocks if you're really lucky, which would improve the quality of your life greatly if bitcoin survives. :)
669 2011-07-12 03:59:41 <nanotube> really? i haven't made the calculation in a while... but i'd think the power would have to be nearly free
670 2011-07-12 04:00:14 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
671 2011-07-12 04:00:14 <gmaxwell> (17179869184*diff*kwh)/(719989013671875*exc*mhj)=1
672 2011-07-12 04:00:24 <gmaxwell> the best cpuminers are about .3 MH/j
673 2011-07-12 04:00:53 <gmaxwell> power where I am is $0.075/KWH 0.05(5?) in the winter.
674 2011-07-12 04:00:56 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
675 2011-07-12 04:01:08 <gmaxwell> throw in some factor for cooling if you want.
676 2011-07-12 04:01:12 <nanotube> i have about .10 usd/kwh here
677 2011-07-12 04:02:04 Zagitta has joined
678 2011-07-12 04:02:24 <Zagitta> Hi fokes
679 2011-07-12 04:02:34 <kreal-> Hi pizza
680 2011-07-12 04:02:43 <kreal-> hmm
681 2011-07-12 04:02:48 <kreal-> sleep cya.
682 2011-07-12 04:03:18 prax has quit (Quit: Leaving)
683 2011-07-12 04:03:26 <gmaxwell> I turned off my cpuminers because of uncertanty about how much my AC actually cost. so assuming .3 MH/J, $14/BTC, $0.075/KWH breakeven is at diff 2,346,897.
684 2011-07-12 04:04:25 <nanotube> hm wow, not bad... i'd have thought cpu mining is long dead at this diff
685 2011-07-12 04:04:29 torsthaldo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
686 2011-07-12 04:05:10 <gmaxwell> but if you toss in a factor of two due to cooling costs for an old AC ... or you're on cpus which aren't modern multicore amds... or whatever.. then its not breakeven anymore.
687 2011-07-12 04:06:00 <Zagitta> Does anyone know where i can read up on how to verify the hash that a miner returns to a pool?
688 2011-07-12 04:06:59 <gmaxwell> That lottery argument I made extends into negative ev's too... e.g. paying $1 for some small chance to solve a block may still be utility positive for me, simply because losing an extra dollar a month is irrelevant to my well being.
689 2011-07-12 04:07:53 <nanotube> gmaxwell: indeed... but since your expecting winning is only 50btc aka 700bucks or so... it's not a hell of a winning. :)
690 2011-07-12 04:08:12 <gmaxwell> yea, if it were larger I'd probably still have the cpu miners going. :)
691 2011-07-12 04:08:13 <nanotube> might as well just buy 50btc to be sure :)
692 2011-07-12 04:08:18 <nanotube> hehe
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705 2011-07-12 04:35:39 <da2ce7> any windows admin bouncing arround wanting to help out a bitcoin related projects
706 2011-07-12 04:35:41 <da2ce7> ?
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708 2011-07-12 04:47:15 kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
709 2011-07-12 04:50:22 <nhodges> omg happy dance
710 2011-07-12 04:50:25 <nhodges> cloud9ide.com
711 2011-07-12 04:50:25 <nhodges> :D
712 2011-07-12 04:50:42 Backburn has joined
713 2011-07-12 04:52:06 <rethaw> cloud9ide.com
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721 2011-07-12 05:24:13 <Graet> da2ce7 mperth in #ozcoin might. you can ask him :)
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740 2011-07-12 06:09:03 <sacarlson> how can multiple networks share listeners? seems one of the problems in small proto nets is that not everyone has the ability to listen behind ISP firewalls
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745 2011-07-12 06:12:03 <Guest54873> you can listen to your ISP>?
746 2011-07-12 06:13:10 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: "use ipv6"
747 2011-07-12 06:13:41 <gmaxwell> really, if your _ISP_ is firewalling/natting you and you can't get inbound connectivity, you're not on the internet.
748 2011-07-12 06:14:22 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya I think an ipv6 tunnel would open up conectivity even behind a firewall wouldn't it?
749 2011-07-12 06:14:29 <gmaxwell> Sure.
750 2011-07-12 06:14:40 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: thanks solution found
751 2011-07-12 06:15:22 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: so point a dns to a ipv6 tunnled address and you now have open to listen from a firewalled net
752 2011-07-12 06:16:09 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: my hero
753 2011-07-12 06:16:24 Jefff has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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755 2011-07-12 06:17:40 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: but I wonder how that works if dns to ipv6 it still get's there won't it for clients that don't have ipv6 conectivity?
756 2011-07-12 06:17:57 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
757 2011-07-12 06:18:55 <gmaxwell> I can't quite parse that, but v6 won't work except between hosts with v6 support.
758 2011-07-12 06:19:14 <gmaxwell> If you're a v4 only host and you get a v6 only dns reply it's as good as no reply at all.
759 2011-07-12 06:19:40 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya so maybe still not perfect solution for all client users then
760 2011-07-12 06:19:42 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
761 2011-07-12 06:19:59 <sacarlson> but it would at least keep major miners connected
762 2011-07-12 06:20:06 Jefff has joined
763 2011-07-12 06:20:43 <sacarlson> in the event one of the miners was behind a firewall
764 2011-07-12 06:21:31 <sacarlson> I still think that's the best solution
765 2011-07-12 06:24:44 <sacarlson> Guest54873: did you mean can't listen to your isp?
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772 2011-07-12 06:28:51 <sacarlson> Guest54873: if so, I CAN some others can't
773 2011-07-12 06:29:42 <sacarlson> from some 3rd party told me only about 10% of the users on bitcoin are listeners
774 2011-07-12 06:30:18 <sacarlson> not sure of the accuracy of that statment
775 2011-07-12 06:30:41 <gmaxwell> thats about right currently, but will change with upnp on by default now.
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778 2011-07-12 06:30:59 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh cool
779 2011-07-12 06:31:35 <midnightmagic> one more reason to build my own :-(
780 2011-07-12 06:31:36 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I never even installed that lib on ubuntu it wasn't availible in the distro libs
781 2011-07-12 06:31:58 <gmaxwell> well, I assume most of the non-listeners aren't *nix users.
782 2011-07-12 06:32:17 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: no I think still majority are windows
783 2011-07-12 06:32:47 <forrestv> gmaxwell, sipa, (i think it was?) answering my earlier question, bitcoind takes about 5 seconds to push out all the headers
784 2011-07-12 06:40:10 DD- has joined
785 2011-07-12 06:40:51 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 5000 0.50
786 2011-07-12 06:40:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.50, is 7 minutes and 9 seconds
787 2011-07-12 06:41:01 Beccara has joined
788 2011-07-12 06:41:02 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 5000 1
789 2011-07-12 06:41:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 14 minutes and 18 seconds
790 2011-07-12 06:41:13 <cuddlefish> Guest54873: testnet?
791 2011-07-12 06:41:15 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 2000 0.06
792 2011-07-12 06:41:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.06, is 2 minutes and 8 seconds
793 2011-07-12 06:41:21 <cuddlefish> lool
794 2011-07-12 06:41:56 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: not those are the block counts of groupcoin
795 2011-07-12 06:43:08 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 2000 0.066389028462137
796 2011-07-12 06:43:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.066389028462137, is 2 minutes and 22 seconds
797 2011-07-12 06:43:20 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: ah
798 2011-07-12 06:43:25 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: that was just knotwork giving away all his beans
799 2011-07-12 06:43:26 <cuddlefish> heh, groupcoin
800 2011-07-12 06:43:38 <cuddlefish> this'll totally work, guys
801 2011-07-12 06:43:46 <cuddlefish> what if we make a system just like bitcoin
802 2011-07-12 06:44:03 <cuddlefish> but where block generation relies on a centralized source
803 2011-07-12 06:44:50 conjre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
804 2011-07-12 06:45:11 <cuddlefish> people'll love it
805 2011-07-12 06:45:28 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: already done with beertokens
806 2011-07-12 06:45:36 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
807 2011-07-12 06:45:41 <sacarlson> and in test in weeds
808 2011-07-12 06:48:02 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: right
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811 2011-07-12 06:53:12 Akinava is now known as away!~lis@pff.eltel.net|Akinava
812 2011-07-12 06:53:28 Pinion has joined
813 2011-07-12 06:54:22 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 425000 0.066389028462137
814 2011-07-12 06:54:23 <gribble> Error: '0.670914314857' is not a valid integer.
815 2011-07-12 06:54:42 <Guest54873> ;;bc,calcd 425000 (int)0.066389028462137
816 2011-07-12 06:54:42 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
817 2011-07-12 06:55:10 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
818 2011-07-12 06:55:26 <sacarlson> Guest54873: what's your groupcoin address I'll send you some
819 2011-07-12 06:56:10 Beccara_ has joined
820 2011-07-12 06:56:40 <sacarlson> french I guess don't read english
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823 2011-07-12 06:59:01 <gmaxwell> I have no clue who "Guest54873" is, since it's a rather non-descriptive name. But since I'm seeing half the conversation I must have them on /ignore.
824 2011-07-12 06:59:40 cdecker has joined
825 2011-07-12 07:00:35 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: your missing nothing
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830 2011-07-12 07:05:09 <Guest54873> ;;bc,stats
831 2011-07-12 07:05:12 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135866 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1221 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 6 hours, 24 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1604752.90857900
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845 2011-07-12 07:37:47 AndyBr has joined
846 2011-07-12 07:37:56 <AndyBr> good day, sirs
847 2011-07-12 07:38:28 b4epoche_ has joined
848 2011-07-12 07:39:26 <AndyBr> i'd like to try the test net and have an existing wallet.dat on my computer (windows) with real btc in it. will this cause problems? i noticed the bitcoind doesn't have an option to change the location of your wallet.dat
849 2011-07-12 07:39:37 alkor has joined
850 2011-07-12 07:40:15 <gmaxwell> it will automatically use a subdirectory for testnet, but you should always mak a wallet.dat backup. Just to be sure!
851 2011-07-12 07:40:43 <doublec> AndyBr: -datadir controls where the wallet goes iirc
852 2011-07-12 07:40:44 <AndyBr> great, thanks. i don't have a lot in it; not too worried
853 2011-07-12 07:40:55 <doublec> AndyBr: but also the blockchain files
854 2011-07-12 07:40:59 <AndyBr> okay, i must have skipped past that. better re-read docs
855 2011-07-12 07:41:02 <xelister> AndyBr: make a backup before you start. best encrypted (strong password) into some CD (and do not loose it)
856 2011-07-12 07:41:28 <gmaxwell> It's just a good policy to have a backup regardless.
857 2011-07-12 07:41:35 <AndyBr> agreed
858 2011-07-12 07:41:47 <xelister> we have backup on paper
859 2011-07-12 07:41:51 <xelister> on freaking paper
860 2011-07-12 07:41:57 <xelister> COME AT ME BRO
861 2011-07-12 07:42:07 <AndyBr> xel: i thought about that and then thought "hmm, maybe im crazy"
862 2011-07-12 07:42:27 <AndyBr> paper for the win
863 2011-07-12 07:42:38 <AndyBr> infact, i shall print my wallet on lambskin or papyrus
864 2011-07-12 07:42:54 <moa7> gold tablets
865 2011-07-12 07:43:01 <AndyBr> had to one up, eh
866 2011-07-12 07:43:03 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
867 2011-07-12 07:43:27 <moa7> just to be sure
868 2011-07-12 07:43:40 <AndyBr> any issue in having concurrent rpc calls to bitcoind?
869 2011-07-12 07:43:41 <Zarutian> moa7: Cryptonomicon?
870 2011-07-12 07:43:55 <Zarutian> any way I am off to bed.
871 2011-07-12 07:43:58 <AndyBr> i -assume- each request will wait for a lock to the data dir
872 2011-07-12 07:44:04 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
873 2011-07-12 07:44:45 <moa7> Zautian: started re-reading after 10 years ... it's still awesome
874 2011-07-12 07:46:05 <doublec> AndyBr: concurrent calls are fine
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913 2011-07-12 08:38:25 <AndyBr> pretty good data type for storing btc? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/364x0z75.aspx
914 2011-07-12 08:41:05 sacarlson has joined
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918 2011-07-12 08:47:06 <AndyBr> how fast is getting money on test? need something for.. testing
919 2011-07-12 08:48:38 <dsockwell> AndyBr: i got 200 testcoin per day last week
920 2011-07-12 08:48:39 danbri has joined
921 2011-07-12 08:48:42 <dsockwell> on dual 8800GTs
922 2011-07-12 08:48:48 <dsockwell> 60 megahash
923 2011-07-12 08:48:53 <AndyBr> okay. i have a laptop :P
924 2011-07-12 08:49:02 <dsockwell> you should beg
925 2011-07-12 08:49:08 <AndyBr> this is me begging
926 2011-07-12 08:49:09 <dsockwell> unfortunately I deleted mine
927 2011-07-12 08:49:10 <dsockwell> :(
928 2011-07-12 08:49:19 <AndyBr> need to setup wallet anyway =)
929 2011-07-12 08:52:14 <forrestv> AndyBr, i have a ton to send
930 2011-07-12 08:52:27 <AndyBr> great, will get an address up in a sec
931 2011-07-12 08:53:25 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
932 2011-07-12 08:55:03 <forrestv> why has the testnet difficulty gone up so much ...
933 2011-07-12 08:55:04 <forrestv> wtf
934 2011-07-12 08:55:12 <forrestv> it's supposed to be kept low ... for testing, you know..?
935 2011-07-12 08:55:44 <kinlo> :)
936 2011-07-12 08:57:06 E-sense has quit (Quit: System.exit(0);)
937 2011-07-12 08:58:50 <kinlo> forrestv: I'm sure someone is willing to give you some coins
938 2011-07-12 08:59:40 <forrestv> kinlo, ...
939 2011-07-12 08:59:54 <kinlo> I don't have testcoins :(
940 2011-07-12 08:59:57 <forrestv> kinlo, i don't mine there for coins, i mine there while testing programs that generate coins
941 2011-07-12 09:00:06 <kinlo> ic
942 2011-07-12 09:00:54 moa7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
943 2011-07-12 09:01:26 <mtrlt_> hmh
944 2011-07-12 09:01:31 <mtrlt_> i don't see the point in doing that
945 2011-07-12 09:01:48 <mtrlt_> i just test my miner on an actual bitcoin pool. getting paid for testing software = :-)
946 2011-07-12 09:02:54 mtrlt_ is now known as mtrlt
947 2011-07-12 09:03:20 <forrestv> mtrlt, ah, i was talking about pool software, not miners :p
948 2011-07-12 09:04:14 <mtrlt> ah :P
949 2011-07-12 09:05:28 <kinlo> testing would take quite some time then :p
950 2011-07-12 09:05:37 <mtrlt> yep you'd need a lot of power to test a pool in the main network
951 2011-07-12 09:05:49 <mtrlt> or alternatively, a lot of patience
952 2011-07-12 09:05:56 <AndyBr> reminds me, saw the most awesome thing of my life (except from my birth) on youtube for final fantasy fans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPl_kpwyAyA
953 2011-07-12 09:08:17 <forrestv> AndyBr, got that address yet? planning to sleep soon
954 2011-07-12 09:08:38 <AndyBr> my app not working. can i run bitcoin gui with -test?
955 2011-07-12 09:08:46 <forrestv> it's -testnet
956 2011-07-12 09:09:11 <AndyBr> mfyJVjJfsTuq9VBeEZeqaczEz8LF4UKst5
957 2011-07-12 09:09:19 <AndyBr> =)
958 2011-07-12 09:10:44 <forrestv> AndyBr, f6ab63fe703e747c203dd83b772225b7a5db553aee9066e006429dadf2612680
959 2011-07-12 09:11:19 <AndyBr> what am i doing with that?
960 2011-07-12 09:11:41 <forrestv> um
961 2011-07-12 09:11:43 pixglen has joined
962 2011-07-12 09:12:04 <AndyBr> i'm new... :)
963 2011-07-12 09:12:13 <forrestv> you can type 'bitcoind gettransaction f6ab63fe703e747c203dd83b772225b7a5db553aee9066e006429dadf2612680' to look at it
964 2011-07-12 09:12:21 <forrestv> not sure how on a gui client ..
965 2011-07-12 09:12:27 <AndyBr> great, thanks
966 2011-07-12 09:14:51 zapnap_ has joined
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968 2011-07-12 09:18:02 zapnap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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971 2011-07-12 09:35:19 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
972 2011-07-12 09:35:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135886 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1201 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 3 hours, 49 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1598514.22613085
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984 2011-07-12 10:30:43 <AndyBr> does bitcoind care about testnet=1 in config?
985 2011-07-12 10:31:26 <xelister> AndyBr: try it, getinfo testnet: true or false
986 2011-07-12 10:31:59 eureka^ has joined
987 2011-07-12 10:33:02 <AndyBr> weird.
988 2011-07-12 10:33:37 <AndyBr> http://i.imgur.com/YrnXj.png
989 2011-07-12 10:33:50 <AndyBr> can you spot the error?
990 2011-07-12 10:34:25 moa7 has joined
991 2011-07-12 10:34:34 <AndyBr> PS C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\daemon> .\bitcoind.exe -testnet <-- works, getinfo returns testnet true
992 2011-07-12 10:42:07 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
993 2011-07-12 10:45:24 <AndyBr> anyone able to send some test money? forrestv said he sent some, but it's been hours and not received
994 2011-07-12 10:46:22 <forrestv> AndyBr, hm
995 2011-07-12 10:46:28 <forrestv> (still awake)
996 2011-07-12 10:46:28 <Happy0> AndyBr: have you tried 'the faucet'? :P
997 2011-07-12 10:46:45 <AndyBr> Happy0: : i assume you mean just turn on generating?
998 2011-07-12 10:46:49 <Happy0> nope
999 2011-07-12 10:46:59 <Happy0> 2 secs
1000 2011-07-12 10:47:02 <AndyBr> but it's still a metaphor?
1001 2011-07-12 10:47:03 <Happy0> https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
1002 2011-07-12 10:47:08 <Happy0> ^^ that's what i mean
1003 2011-07-12 10:47:16 <forrestv> AndyBr, there haven't been any blocks generated since i sent it
1004 2011-07-12 10:47:21 <forrestv> so, no confirmations
1005 2011-07-12 10:47:41 <AndyBr> okay :-|
1006 2011-07-12 10:47:53 Jkessler has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1007 2011-07-12 10:47:58 <forrestv> i guess mining on the testnet is pretty variable...
1008 2011-07-12 10:48:04 torsthaldo_ has joined
1009 2011-07-12 10:48:23 <Happy0> forrestv: i still don't understand that aspect of bitcoin - i thought the coins were already in our wallets, so it was just a matter of transferring them from one place to another :P
1010 2011-07-12 10:48:50 <Happy0> although i guess i could read up on it
1011 2011-07-12 10:49:05 <AndyBr> i understood it as that people need to "build on top" of your transaction or something
1012 2011-07-12 10:49:57 <Happy0> :o
1013 2011-07-12 10:50:19 <forrestv> Happy0, right, but the problem with that is that you could send the same coins to multiple people
1014 2011-07-12 10:50:38 <forrestv> the chain of blocks is a centralized record that doesn't include duplicate spends
1015 2011-07-12 10:50:46 <forrestv> so it's what matters
1016 2011-07-12 10:50:49 torsthaldo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1017 2011-07-12 10:51:09 <AndyBr> to acknowledge a transaction, you just want X others to have verified it (built on top)?
1018 2011-07-12 10:51:12 <Happy0> forrestv: of course! so what does the confirmation process entail? :P
1019 2011-07-12 10:51:14 <AndyBr> which i assume is minconf
1020 2011-07-12 10:51:34 <forrestv> AndyBr, yes
1021 2011-07-12 10:51:52 <forrestv> Happy0, it's included in a block, which is computationally intensive to do (= mining)
1022 2011-07-12 10:52:17 <Happy0> i see! =]
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1024 2011-07-12 10:52:40 <AndyBr> forrestv: have people made duplicate transactions on test? i assume it can be done if you got some processing power
1025 2011-07-12 10:53:32 <forrestv> AndyBr, maybe? it's difficult to know because the only preserved history is the main block chain
1026 2011-07-12 10:53:32 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1027 2011-07-12 10:53:44 <forrestv> definitely possible, though
1028 2011-07-12 10:55:39 BlueMatt has joined
1029 2011-07-12 10:56:07 <AndyBr> i wonder when someone will try to ocean's 14 the main bitcoin net with a gazillion gpus :D
1030 2011-07-12 11:01:57 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1031 2011-07-12 11:01:58 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 0 days, 19 hours, 1 minute, and 24 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> afk for a bit
1032 2011-07-12 11:02:10 <BlueMatt> well hes been afk for quite some time...
1033 2011-07-12 11:02:29 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
1034 2011-07-12 11:02:36 <BlueMatt> tcatm: sipa ping
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1039 2011-07-12 11:08:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: pong
1040 2011-07-12 11:11:23 * xelister drops 3x3 hedgehog @ sipa. NOW WHAT
1041 2011-07-12 11:12:13 Marf has joined
1042 2011-07-12 11:12:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: what would your take be on upgrading to bdb5.X in 0.4?
1043 2011-07-12 11:13:06 <sipa> what advantages does bdb5 have?
1044 2011-07-12 11:13:29 <BlueMatt> none, except that it would appear most distros are slowly moving bdb4.X into unsupported/deprecated/etc
1045 2011-07-12 11:14:19 <BlueMatt> so, for continuity of releases, we might consider upgrading to 5.X
1046 2011-07-12 11:14:40 <sipa> problem is that bdb4 and bdb5 are quite incompatible, no?
1047 2011-07-12 11:14:52 <BlueMatt> yea, once you upgrade to 5.X, you cant go back
1048 2011-07-12 11:15:02 <BlueMatt> both data and log files are incompatible
1049 2011-07-12 11:15:27 <sipa> and which is the oldest (ubuntu eg) distro that does not have 5.x packages?
1050 2011-07-12 11:15:28 <sipa> packaged
1051 2011-07-12 11:15:43 TD has joined
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1053 2011-07-12 11:16:27 <BlueMatt> no
1054 2011-07-12 11:16:31 <BlueMatt> thats my problem
1055 2011-07-12 11:16:54 <sipa> no = none?
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1059 2011-07-12 11:17:08 <BlueMatt> oh, just the latest one has 5.X
1060 2011-07-12 11:17:24 <sipa> then i don't think it's time to switch
1061 2011-07-12 11:18:16 <BlueMatt> my thinking was: if 4.X is moving out of stable on the latest releases of many distros, and we arent gonna make it into the distro packages for a while now anyway, by the time we can make that we have to be using 5.X
1062 2011-07-12 11:18:58 Dagger3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1063 2011-07-12 11:19:41 <BlueMatt> plus, since we are adding wallet crypto, we are already making an incompatible wallet format change
1064 2011-07-12 11:19:55 <sipa> but my current install does not even have bdb5
1065 2011-07-12 11:20:05 <BlueMatt> what distro?
1066 2011-07-12 11:20:06 <sipa> and 4.8 is the latest here
1067 2011-07-12 11:20:15 <sipa> ubuntu 10.10
1068 2011-07-12 11:20:17 mmoya has joined
1069 2011-07-12 11:20:35 <BlueMatt> yea, 5.1 was added in 11.04
1070 2011-07-12 11:20:43 <sipa> i find it hard to imagine 4.8 will become unsupported soon
1071 2011-07-12 11:20:45 <minus> use archlinux :D
1072 2011-07-12 11:20:51 Dagger3 has joined
1073 2011-07-12 11:20:55 <minus> yeah, you can't do that
1074 2011-07-12 11:21:00 <BlueMatt> minus: hence why I brought this up
1075 2011-07-12 11:21:04 <sipa> or even 4.7
1076 2011-07-12 11:21:18 <BlueMatt> well both arch and debian are moving that way
1077 2011-07-12 11:21:26 <BlueMatt> arch already has for some bright reason
1078 2011-07-12 11:21:29 <sipa> i agree that if we want to switch in any of the coming months, let's say, we should do it now
1079 2011-07-12 11:21:39 <sipa> but i'm not sure that is necessary yet
1080 2011-07-12 11:23:00 <BlueMatt> well thats my point, we have to do it before we are able to get any kind of distro adoption...
1081 2011-07-12 11:23:19 <BlueMatt> and I have no idea when we will make another incompatible wallet change...
1082 2011-07-12 11:24:00 <sipa> but there is simply no way we can move to 5.x unless you want to alienate a not-yet-one-year old distro right now
1083 2011-07-12 11:24:19 <BlueMatt> my question though: why the hell is arch so damn stupid that they deprecated 4.X already?
1084 2011-07-12 11:24:49 <BlueMatt> well the releases are still static linked, so people can still use it on any distro
1085 2011-07-12 11:24:51 <sipa> when mainstream package adoption comes, won't they be deciding on the bdb version themselves?
1086 2011-07-12 11:24:54 <BlueMatt> but building yourself...
1087 2011-07-12 11:25:01 <BlueMatt> they shouldnt
1088 2011-07-12 11:25:16 <BlueMatt> it should be the same across all distros so that wallets are portable
1089 2011-07-12 11:25:26 <sipa> they are - only logfiles aren't
1090 2011-07-12 11:25:44 <BlueMatt> no, thats only if everyone sticks to 4.X or 5.X
1091 2011-07-12 11:25:50 <BlueMatt> between 4 and 5 they are not
1092 2011-07-12 11:26:03 <sipa> they are forward compatible, right?
1093 2011-07-12 11:26:14 <BlueMatt> 5.X will automatically upgrade 4.X to the new format
1094 2011-07-12 11:26:19 <BlueMatt> but you cant go back
1095 2011-07-12 11:26:22 <sipa> indeed
1096 2011-07-12 11:26:41 <sipa> i think it's just too early now
1097 2011-07-12 11:26:42 <BlueMatt> thats why I would very much like to see all packages using the same bdb
1098 2011-07-12 11:26:48 <sipa> to switch
1099 2011-07-12 11:26:51 <BlueMatt> yea, youre probably right
1100 2011-07-12 11:26:59 <sipa> 4.8, yes
1101 2011-07-12 11:27:10 <BlueMatt> yea, Im already planning 4.8 for 0.4
1102 2011-07-12 11:28:47 <BlueMatt> but seriously, that is fucking stupid as hell of arch...
1103 2011-07-12 11:29:10 <BlueMatt> not only did they deprecate db4.X, but also 5.1, no other distro even has 5.2 yet
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1111 2011-07-12 11:44:33 <cuddlefish> If you click New Address with an address selected, you add that label to the address...
1112 2011-07-12 11:47:57 <Joric> i just wrote a standalone python script allowing to import 'vanity' addresses, anyone interested?
1113 2011-07-12 11:48:16 <sipa> Joric: into a wallet.dat?
1114 2011-07-12 11:48:19 <Joric> yeah
1115 2011-07-12 11:48:35 <sipa> i guess you create a 'key' entry for it?
1116 2011-07-12 11:49:58 <Joric> i'm adding it to 'key' and to 'name' simultaneously
1117 2011-07-12 11:50:17 <sipa> ok, good
1118 2011-07-12 11:50:31 <Joric> here http://pastebin.com/vUrACviw
1119 2011-07-12 11:50:57 <Joric> only dumpwallet / importprivkey so far
1120 2011-07-12 11:51:28 <sipa> you could also reset the 'bestblock' entry
1121 2011-07-12 11:51:37 <sipa> so the application will force a rescan when loading
1122 2011-07-12 11:52:49 <Joric> yeah
1123 2011-07-12 11:53:01 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1124 2011-07-12 11:53:02 <Joric> i'm badly afraid of damaging wallet :)
1125 2011-07-12 11:53:19 <sipa> you can simply overwrite it with an empty array
1126 2011-07-12 11:56:40 <Joric> there's a ton of records - pool/name/defaultkey/transactions :)
1127 2011-07-12 11:56:55 mmoya has joined
1128 2011-07-12 11:57:02 <sipa> don't worry about those
1129 2011-07-12 11:57:06 <Joric> i've used your format for dumpwallet + forgot to remove 'settings' and 'version'
1130 2011-07-12 11:57:30 <Joric> the next killer feature is to delete keys, not implemented :)
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1134 2011-07-12 12:01:30 <sipa> Joric: which options of dumpwallet do you support?
1135 2011-07-12 12:03:17 <Joric> i read 'keys' and use 'names' to determine visibility, that's basically all
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1138 2011-07-12 12:06:08 <Joric> there also settings/version/defaultkey in the json, without any special reason :)
1139 2011-07-12 12:07:34 unclemantis has joined
1140 2011-07-12 12:08:36 <unclemantis> any ideas on connecting a bitcoin wallet to a payment proccessor?
1141 2011-07-12 12:10:22 BlueMattBot has joined
1142 2011-07-12 12:10:36 <forrestv> which gpu miners support shares below difficulty 1?
1143 2011-07-12 12:11:47 <Joric> i spend most time writting openssl bindings found out there's no libs, M2Crypto doesn't have all i needed
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1145 2011-07-12 12:14:04 <cuddlefish> Joric: what did it lack
1146 2011-07-12 12:14:42 <Joric> i don't remember really the whole naming is fucked up
1147 2011-07-12 12:16:50 <Joric> it doesn't have i2d_ECPrivateKey / i2o_ECPublicKey, maybe they can be implemented somehow i don't know really
1148 2011-07-12 12:19:26 xelister is now known as edens_snake
1149 2011-07-12 12:19:35 edens_snake is now known as xelister
1150 2011-07-12 12:20:53 <phungus> so, this is fun... calling JSON-RPC methods from Perl using the Wiki examples.. I think the testnet mods are maybe breaking it
1151 2011-07-12 12:21:01 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1152 2011-07-12 12:21:19 <phungus> $VAR1 = {
1153 2011-07-12 12:21:26 <phungus> 'difficulty' => '1563027.99611622',
1154 2011-07-12 12:21:33 <phungus> 'blocks' => 135905,
1155 2011-07-12 12:21:36 <cuddlefish> phungus: pastebin.com
1156 2011-07-12 12:21:50 <phungus> yeah
1157 2011-07-12 12:21:51 <phungus> hang on
1158 2011-07-12 12:21:51 ThomasV has joined
1159 2011-07-12 12:22:49 <Joric> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96 ain't it cool? :)
1160 2011-07-12 12:23:06 <cuddlefish> Joric: vanitygen makes Captain Planet cry
1161 2011-07-12 12:23:36 <AndyBr> man, transactions take a while on test
1162 2011-07-12 12:24:55 blzp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1166 2011-07-12 12:26:30 <phungus> http://pastebin.com/TDSUwx6x
1167 2011-07-12 12:26:41 <phungus> testnet and generate are returning horked data
1168 2011-07-12 12:26:47 <phungus> when I execute getinfo
1169 2011-07-12 12:27:18 <phungus> I'm pretty rusty with my perl, but that is straight from the wiki
1170 2011-07-12 12:27:20 <Joric> 1BTC addresses http://i52.tinypic.com/2emomjd.png
1171 2011-07-12 12:27:55 <kinlo> pure coincidence?
1172 2011-07-12 12:28:00 <Joric> sure
1173 2011-07-12 12:28:06 <phungus> VanityGen
1174 2011-07-12 12:28:19 <phungus> what a waste of processing power. :-)
1175 2011-07-12 12:28:27 <Joric> i just wrote a python script to import those
1176 2011-07-12 12:28:44 johnnychimpo has joined
1177 2011-07-12 12:29:09 <kinlo> Joric: if you really have too much computing power, you could always mine a bit for me, no?
1178 2011-07-12 12:29:09 johnnychimpo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1179 2011-07-12 12:30:06 <Joric> kinlo, it takes ~0.1s to generate 1BTCsomething
1180 2011-07-12 12:31:01 <phungus> I wonder if something as stupid as vanity generated address could cause a collision somewhere. :-)
1181 2011-07-12 12:31:30 <phungus> I know it's mathmatically improbable, but you never know
1182 2011-07-12 12:32:20 <Joric> the import script http://pastebin.com/vUrACviw
1183 2011-07-12 12:35:28 <AndyBr> is there a way to lisstransactions for any account and still use from and count?
1184 2011-07-12 12:35:51 zapnap has joined
1185 2011-07-12 12:36:26 <sipa> phungus: just a collision is already hard, but worthless
1186 2011-07-12 12:36:31 <unclemantis> I was thinking of giving a magstripe card and pin number out to folks who use a online web wallet to be able to use at a POS just like a debit card. Any ideas on who i would need to talk to?
1187 2011-07-12 12:36:39 TheAncientGoat has joined
1188 2011-07-12 12:36:52 <sipa> phungus: a collision with a preexisting address that holds money may be useful, but is orders of magnitude harder
1189 2011-07-12 12:37:00 <phungus> AndyBr: listtransactions already requires an argument for account?
1190 2011-07-12 12:37:13 <phungus> werd
1191 2011-07-12 12:37:41 <phungus> I'm just thinking in the future, if we got millions of folks generating addresses on a much larger scale than normal bitcoin usage
1192 2011-07-12 12:37:41 <AndyBr> phungus: well, "listtransactions" works fine, but "listtransactions 10 0" returns nothing.l listtransactions from=0 count=10 returns nothing
1193 2011-07-12 12:37:52 <phungus> hmm
1194 2011-07-12 12:38:10 <Joric> unclemantis, you may give a private key that uses vanitygen, it's only 50 bytes and 'human readable'
1195 2011-07-12 12:38:12 <phungus> listtransactions <account> [count=10] Returns up to [count] most recent transactions for account <account>.
1196 2011-07-12 12:38:20 <phungus> from the wiki
1197 2011-07-12 12:38:37 <phungus> do you have an account called '10'?
1198 2011-07-12 12:38:50 <AndyBr> no, have one called nothing ("")
1199 2011-07-12 12:38:55 <Joric> also there's a built-in checksum
1200 2011-07-12 12:39:08 <phungus> listtransactions "" 10
1201 2011-07-12 12:39:23 <phungus> lists the last 10 transactions for the account ""
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1203 2011-07-12 12:39:59 <AndyBr> PS C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\daemon> .\bitcoind.exe listtransactions "" 10 <-- returns []
1204 2011-07-12 12:40:14 <Cryo> vanity kinda sucks towards anonymity
1205 2011-07-12 12:40:16 <phungus> you may not have any transactions to list. :-)
1206 2011-07-12 12:40:24 <phungus> for that account
1207 2011-07-12 12:40:39 <AndyBr> phungus: PS C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\daemon> .\bitcoind.exe listtransactions <-- returns two transactions, each with: "account" : "",
1208 2011-07-12 12:40:50 <phungus> oh hmm
1209 2011-07-12 12:40:55 <Joric> i would never mix vanity address with 'anonymous' ones
1210 2011-07-12 12:40:57 <phungus> I don't know what's up with that
1211 2011-07-12 12:40:59 <phungus> :-)
1212 2011-07-12 12:41:19 <AndyBr> phungus: and even worse, i'm trying to write something to sync the tran log with a database, so i need to "move backards" in the tran log for -all- accounts
1213 2011-07-12 12:41:50 <Cryo> oh, not 'normal' people. 'stupid' people might get confused thinking that having vanity still garners some form of anonymity.
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1217 2011-07-12 12:42:51 <Cryo> send money to 1CryoHasP0t4u9823ua99a0
1218 2011-07-12 12:42:53 <phungus> AndyBr: I'm not sure, I think you're beyond my understanding. :-)
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1220 2011-07-12 12:43:15 <AndyBr> phungus: damn. i'd read the source code for help but cant really read c++ that well
1221 2011-07-12 12:43:21 Sickness\ has joined
1222 2011-07-12 12:43:31 <phungus> yeah, I don't know a lick of c++
1223 2011-07-12 12:43:39 <Joric> speaking of p0t, http://www.gwern.net/Silk%20Road
1224 2011-07-12 12:43:44 <phungus> it seems like the 10 on the end should list all of them
1225 2011-07-12 12:44:10 <Cryo> shhh
1226 2011-07-12 12:44:39 <phungus> Private forums > Silk Road
1227 2011-07-12 12:44:55 <AndyBr> well wtf: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc.cpp#L1029
1228 2011-07-12 12:45:03 <AndyBr> i must have an old version
1229 2011-07-12 12:45:23 <sipa> which version are you running?
1230 2011-07-12 12:45:29 <AndyBr> about to find out
1231 2011-07-12 12:45:45 <AndyBr> 32300
1232 2011-07-12 12:46:06 <Cryo> I did enjoy the media getting all up about silk road and bitcoins, because clearly no one uses that anonymous form of legal tender called⦠cash to do the same thing.
1233 2011-07-12 12:46:08 <phungus> 3.24 is out
1234 2011-07-12 12:46:19 <BlueMatt> that change should be in 23 iirc
1235 2011-07-12 12:46:35 <phungus> cash via Priority works great
1236 2011-07-12 12:46:40 <forrestv> just got a share with hash 0xbddbdbcbc411ba6b44720e3371a16faa3800bbd36905ac8164fa0338 ..
1237 2011-07-12 12:46:43 <forrestv> hehe, interesting prefix
1238 2011-07-12 12:46:44 <Joric> "My own method was to route 4 bitcoins through Mt.Gox (this was before the hacking, a series of events which confirmed my own resolution to keep a balance at Mt.Gox for as short a time as possible), then through Mybitcoin."
1239 2011-07-12 12:47:04 <Joric> i bet both of them work for feds
1240 2011-07-12 12:47:14 <phungus> yes, if you deal with a fed
1241 2011-07-12 12:47:16 <AndyBr> BlueMatt: pretty weird, because when i do "listtransactions *" i get [] back
1242 2011-07-12 12:47:17 <BlueMatt> lol, they think mtgox is worse than mybitcoin
1243 2011-07-12 12:47:22 <phungus> which is why you avoid Silk Road
1244 2011-07-12 12:47:30 <sipa> mtgox at least communicates
1245 2011-07-12 12:47:37 <BlueMatt> mtgox complies with all regulation in .jp
1246 2011-07-12 12:47:42 <BlueMatt> mybitcoin, who the fuck knows
1247 2011-07-12 12:48:06 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1248 2011-07-12 12:48:07 <phungus> I need to try OTC someday
1249 2011-07-12 12:48:18 <phungus> and make sure I follow all the steps. :-)
1250 2011-07-12 12:48:56 <phungus> so, anyone know what's up with this perl weirdness? http://pastebin.com/TDSUwx6x
1251 2011-07-12 12:49:23 <phungus> I don't really need the getinfo results, but it jumped out at me, given that it's the example from the wiki
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1254 2011-07-12 12:50:29 <erus`> phungus: they are nested elements?
1255 2011-07-12 12:50:39 <Joric> BlueMatt, just hacked up a standalone vanity import script, checkitout http://pastebin.com/vUrACviw
1256 2011-07-12 12:50:40 <AndyBr> BlueMatt: upgraded to 24 now and no help *slight rage*
1257 2011-07-12 12:50:44 <phungus> it's just dumping what it sees from getingo
1258 2011-07-12 12:50:46 <phungus> getinfo
1259 2011-07-12 12:50:57 <phungus> when I call bitcoind getinfo directly all is well
1260 2011-07-12 12:51:12 <Joric> probably will develop it up to full json import/export
1261 2011-07-12 12:51:44 <phungus> AndyBr: what about listtransactions "" 3 ?
1262 2011-07-12 12:51:50 <phungus> AndyBr: what about listtransactions "" 1
1263 2011-07-12 12:51:51 <AndyBr> however, in 24 listtransactions "" works
1264 2011-07-12 12:52:06 <AndyBr> phungus: nope
1265 2011-07-12 12:52:13 <phungus> only 2 works?
1266 2011-07-12 12:52:29 <phungus> so you have to pass the exact number of transactions in order for it to show?
1267 2011-07-12 12:52:34 <AndyBr> listtransactions works. listtransactions "" works (account name is blank where i got the money)
1268 2011-07-12 12:52:44 <AndyBr> listtransactions "" X Y does -not- work
1269 2011-07-12 12:52:47 <AndyBr> not just with X
1270 2011-07-12 12:53:07 <phungus> hmm
1271 2011-07-12 12:53:34 <doublec> listtransactions doesn't take a Y
1272 2011-07-12 12:53:50 <doublec> oh it does
1273 2011-07-12 12:53:54 <doublec> when did that happen
1274 2011-07-12 12:54:06 <phungus> there needs to be some serious documentation updates. :-)
1275 2011-07-12 12:54:13 <doublec> true that
1276 2011-07-12 12:54:16 <AndyBr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc.cpp#L1110
1277 2011-07-12 12:54:18 <forrestv> AndyBr, ah, the testnet finally generated a block
1278 2011-07-12 12:54:37 <AndyBr> forrestv: it did? i'm working on real now :D
1279 2011-07-12 12:54:47 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1280 2011-07-12 12:54:48 <gribble> 135910
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1282 2011-07-12 12:55:27 <epscy> ;;bc,stats
1283 2011-07-12 12:55:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135910 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1177 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1604214.38439170
1284 2011-07-12 12:55:33 <forrestv> AndyBr, ah :p
1285 2011-07-12 12:55:49 <epscy> hmmm mining levelling off?
1286 2011-07-12 12:55:58 <epscy> or too early to tell?
1287 2011-07-12 12:56:11 <forrestv> AndyBr, http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/f6ab63fe703e747c203dd83b772225b7a5db553aee9066e006429dadf2612680
1288 2011-07-12 12:56:29 <AndyBr> =)
1289 2011-07-12 12:56:33 HashKat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1290 2011-07-12 12:57:40 <phungus> Perl: 'generate' => $VAR1->{'testnet'}, Bitcoind: "generate" : false,
1291 2011-07-12 12:57:51 <phungus> Perl: 'testnet' => bless( do{\(my $o = 0)}, 'JSON::XS::Boolean' ),
1292 2011-07-12 12:57:59 <phungus> Bitcoind: "testnet" : false,
1293 2011-07-12 12:58:03 <phungus> not handling boolean
1294 2011-07-12 12:58:14 <phungus> bleh
1295 2011-07-12 12:58:21 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
1296 2011-07-12 12:59:02 <phungus> so either JSON:XS isn't handling it, or it's something else
1297 2011-07-12 12:59:35 <phungus> time for #perl
1298 2011-07-12 12:59:36 <phungus> :-)
1299 2011-07-12 13:01:49 jaywalk has joined
1300 2011-07-12 13:02:26 <AndyBr> bleh, my cpp isnt good enough to understand whats up with this listtransactions. anyone else able to look?
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1303 2011-07-12 13:08:36 <phungus> ok, well, apparently Perl doesn't report false values
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1306 2011-07-12 13:08:56 <phungus> so JSON::XS is just passing through nothing, and it ends up screwing with output
1307 2011-07-12 13:09:12 <phungus> that's loverly
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1311 2011-07-12 13:12:53 <phungus> looks like I have to either deserialize or serialize the data
1312 2011-07-12 13:13:05 <phungus> in order to fixup the false (missing) data
1313 2011-07-12 13:13:19 <phungus> so the wiki entry has been broken the whole time, maybe
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1332 2011-07-12 13:30:26 <Joric> uploaded that damn thing to https://github.com/joric/pywallet
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1339 2011-07-12 13:43:03 <cuqa> hey, i have a problem with staled shares and pushpool
1340 2011-07-12 13:43:57 <cuqa> when I connect one miner everything works well with almost no stale shares, however when a 2nd miner connects the stale rate increases significantly
1341 2011-07-12 13:44:23 <cuqa> anyways. i am interested whats cause of stale shares anyways
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1345 2011-07-12 13:47:46 <cuqa> mostly the stales come in packages and the duration is until new block is started
1346 2011-07-12 13:49:20 <AndyBr> yay! solved my issues with listtransactions. it's a problem with using bitcoind to speak to the rpc. works fine when doing rpc from my own app
1347 2011-07-12 13:50:01 estornudo has joined
1348 2011-07-12 13:50:40 <AndyBr> where in the source is bitcoind daemon?
1349 2011-07-12 13:50:54 <Cryo> so you found a bug.
1350 2011-07-12 13:51:01 <Cryo> congrats :)
1351 2011-07-12 13:51:25 <AndyBr> Cryo: would like to try correct it or atleast make issue, but no idea where to look :D
1352 2011-07-12 13:51:26 <kinlo> AndyBr: it's the same code as the regular client
1353 2011-07-12 13:51:27 ar4s has joined
1354 2011-07-12 13:51:51 <kinlo> AndyBr: they just change gui.cpp with nogui.cpp if I remember correctly
1355 2011-07-12 13:52:49 koleg has joined
1356 2011-07-12 13:53:28 <AndyBr> kinlo: can you point out the path (exploring github at the moment)?
1357 2011-07-12 13:53:40 <kinlo> andyBr: do a checkout :)
1358 2011-07-12 13:53:47 <kinlo> you can see everything yourself decently :)
1359 2011-07-12 13:53:55 <AndyBr> hehe, ok. i dont have anything to compile it anyway
1360 2011-07-12 13:54:19 pyro__ is now known as Guest67468
1361 2011-07-12 13:54:25 <Sami345> Find blocks fast!
1362 2011-07-12 13:54:37 <Sami345> I need to get my transaction confirmed :D
1363 2011-07-12 13:54:41 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1364 2011-07-12 13:54:49 <kinlo> sure, but you can still look at the source :)
1365 2011-07-12 13:54:57 <kinlo> Sami345: I am ! :)
1366 2011-07-12 13:55:04 <kinlo> attempting anyway
1367 2011-07-12 13:56:20 <AndyBr> every time i install visual studio i tell myself i wont need c++ support. been wrong for like 8 years
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1370 2011-07-12 14:01:58 <upb> lol
1371 2011-07-12 14:02:33 <AndyBr> if (strMethod == "listtransactions" && n > 1) ConvertTo<boost::int64_t>(params[1]); <-- o_O
1372 2011-07-12 14:03:13 <phungus> gosh I don't understand that at all
1373 2011-07-12 14:03:37 <phungus> I figured out the perl thing
1374 2011-07-12 14:03:41 <phungus> though
1375 2011-07-12 14:04:13 <phungus> $res->result->{connections}
1376 2011-07-12 14:05:26 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
1377 2011-07-12 14:07:15 <AndyBr> phungus: not sure myself, but i assume there's where it starts to mess up when you use listtransactions * 10 0 etc
1378 2011-07-12 14:07:44 <AndyBr> can't really check without a debugger, which im too lazy to install :D
1379 2011-07-12 14:09:08 dD0T has joined
1380 2011-07-12 14:09:10 <ThomasV> tcatm: is it possible to generate QR codes from adresses with your library, without having to connect to a server ?
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1383 2011-07-12 14:10:54 <tcatm> ThomasV: in js-remote?
1384 2011-07-12 14:11:02 ZOP has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1385 2011-07-12 14:11:44 <ThomasV> tcatm: I believe it is called so. but I do not care, tell me if that's possible with or without it :-)
1386 2011-07-12 14:12:14 <ThomasV> I am just looking for a way to generate qr codes in javascript
1387 2011-07-12 14:12:21 <tcatm> ThomasV: currently it relies on google's QR code API but it can be generated in javascript with the correct lib
1388 2011-07-12 14:12:26 karnac has joined
1389 2011-07-12 14:12:46 <ThomasV> what is "the correct lib" ?
1390 2011-07-12 14:13:14 <nanotube> ;;sl javascript qr code generation library
1391 2011-07-12 14:13:15 <gribble> http://jquery-howto.blogspot.com/2009/08/qr-code-generator-plugin-for-jquery.html | Aug 11, 2009 ... Blog is about JQuery javascript library. I collect javascript code ... Anyway, there are plenty of free online QR code generator sites, ...
1392 2011-07-12 14:13:18 b4epoche_ has joined
1393 2011-07-12 14:13:24 <nanotube> ThomasV: ^ first google hit points here
1394 2011-07-12 14:13:25 <nanotube> try it :)
1395 2011-07-12 14:13:43 <ThomasV> I already did
1396 2011-07-12 14:14:06 <ThomasV> but it is not related to bitcoin
1397 2011-07-12 14:14:13 <lianj> jquer-howto and 2 years old looks outdated :D
1398 2011-07-12 14:14:48 <nanotube> ThomasV: you can generate a qr code of /anything/
1399 2011-07-12 14:14:56 <nanotube> it doesn't have to be a bitcoin address, but it can be :)
1400 2011-07-12 14:15:05 <nanotube> (subject to length restrictions)
1401 2011-07-12 14:15:33 <nanotube> lianj: hell, it's the google lucky hit. anyone who wants to can actually seach google in a normal fashion to find something :)
1402 2011-07-12 14:15:51 <ThomasV> nanotube: I know ; I am looking for a js solution to generate QR codes for bitcoin addresses, in a way that is compatible with other bitcoin applications
1403 2011-07-12 14:15:51 <vegard> is it common to qr to base58-encoded address or the raw bytes?
1404 2011-07-12 14:15:52 <lianj> hehe true
1405 2011-07-12 14:16:09 nefario has left ()
1406 2011-07-12 14:16:14 <vegard> qr *the
1407 2011-07-12 14:16:15 <nanotube> ThomasV: don't bitcoin applications just use standard qr codes for bitcoin addresses?
1408 2011-07-12 14:16:19 <nanotube> nothing special required?
1409 2011-07-12 14:16:44 <ThomasV> nanotube: I do not know ; I would guess there are some conventions, no ?
1410 2011-07-12 14:16:44 <nanotube> one would think just stuffing a bitcoin addr into a qr-generator will produce a valid 'bitcoin-compatible' qr code of a bitcoin address...
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1412 2011-07-12 14:16:56 <b4epoche> done that
1413 2011-07-12 14:17:06 <vegard> nanotube: see my question, for example...
1414 2011-07-12 14:17:07 <nanotube> ThomasV: that i'm not sure about. if i had to guess... i'd say it's just 'stuff addr into qr code gen'
1415 2011-07-12 14:17:19 <ThomasV> bah
1416 2011-07-12 14:17:35 <ThomasV> ok, lemme find a qrcode generator
1417 2011-07-12 14:17:45 <b4epoche> there's a lib
1418 2011-07-12 14:17:50 <Joric> how about google chart?
1419 2011-07-12 14:17:51 <b4epoche> qrencode
1420 2011-07-12 14:17:58 <sipa> vegard: the bitcoin android app encodes the address (in base58 form) as qr code
1421 2011-07-12 14:18:16 <b4epoche> there are tons of scripting language libs but qrencode is the only C-based one
1422 2011-07-12 14:18:51 <Joric> 'generator' https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=150x150&cht=qr&chl=Hello%20world&choe=UTF-8
1423 2011-07-12 14:18:51 <vegard> right
1424 2011-07-12 14:19:20 <nanotube> vegard: yea as i said, i'd /think/ you just stuff the address, in its base58 representation, into qr
1425 2011-07-12 14:19:32 <b4epoche> that's what I did
1426 2011-07-12 14:19:42 <nanotube> b4epoche: k :)
1427 2011-07-12 14:19:51 <b4epoche> http://snapplr.com/mtkc
1428 2011-07-12 14:20:17 <b4epoche> does the android app do it natively or via a web site?
1429 2011-07-12 14:20:23 <Joric> bitcoin-js-remote uses a certain naming convention already http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
1430 2011-07-12 14:20:35 <b4epoche> actually there were quite a few java libs too for encoding.
1431 2011-07-12 14:20:58 <Joric> bitcoin:18pnDgDYFMAKsHTA3ZqyAi6t8q9ztaWWXt?label=&amount=&message=
1432 2011-07-12 14:21:03 <nanotube> ah, using the uri ic
1433 2011-07-12 14:23:49 AnatolV has joined
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1435 2011-07-12 14:31:12 <Cryo> http://www.dailytech.com/AntiSec+Exposes+US+Soldiers+SNs+Passwords+Vows+Attack+on+Monsanto/article22132.htm
1436 2011-07-12 14:31:29 <Cryo> dailytech just HAD to include mtgox into #antisec crap
1437 2011-07-12 14:32:15 <BlueMatt> " it used an unacceptably weak level of encryption" which is just not true of mtgox
1438 2011-07-12 14:32:17 <b4epoche> any press is good press
1439 2011-07-12 14:32:35 <BlueMatt> it used to, at the time of hacking, it didnt
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1444 2011-07-12 14:47:28 <phungus> Yay for OPMonsanto!
1445 2011-07-12 14:47:40 <phungus> http://www.anonpad.org/opmonsanto
1446 2011-07-12 14:47:57 <phungus> glad to see that made it
1447 2011-07-12 14:49:37 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1448 2011-07-12 14:50:50 <nanotube> ;;sell 100 TNBTC @ 0.005 BTC selling testnet btc to all interested parties. :)
1449 2011-07-12 14:50:50 <gribble> Order id 4597 created.
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1453 2011-07-12 14:57:40 <genjix> how do you do gentlemen
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1487 2011-07-12 15:52:15 JackRabiit has joined
1488 2011-07-12 15:52:33 <JackRabiit> Fuck sakes. Im at .99btc could someone send me .01btc @ 1GNn2YB2TEiaia1VBAMwv8gceHtmvsaBi7
1489 2011-07-12 15:52:45 <diki> github kinda sucks atm
1490 2011-07-12 15:52:52 <diki> i press the Download button...and nothing
1491 2011-07-12 15:52:55 <BlueMatt> JackRabiit: for what?
1492 2011-07-12 15:52:59 http402 has joined
1493 2011-07-12 15:53:08 <JackRabiit> So that i have One btc that i can sell
1494 2011-07-12 15:53:20 <JackRabiit> to an automated webpage
1495 2011-07-12 15:53:43 <BlueMatt> I dont think -dev is the right place to be asking that ;)
1496 2011-07-12 15:53:43 <diki> try the bitcoin faucet
1497 2011-07-12 15:53:57 <JackRabiit> Heh i know, i didnt want to auth just to talk in the otc
1498 2011-07-12 15:54:29 <nanotube> then you could be anyone pretending to be you :)
1499 2011-07-12 15:54:45 <JackRabiit> giving away 0.001 bitcoins per visitor, Dammnit
1500 2011-07-12 15:55:04 <JackRabiit> lawl alright i'll go on the otc and auth so i can beg for .01
1501 2011-07-12 15:55:34 <Happy0> xD
1502 2011-07-12 15:56:17 <epscy> 0.1 BTC is £0.89
1503 2011-07-12 15:56:28 <epscy> i don't just throw that kind of money around
1504 2011-07-12 15:56:46 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
1505 2011-07-12 15:57:43 <JackRabiit> heh There, Im authed
1506 2011-07-12 15:57:57 <xelister> JackRabiit: depends
1507 2011-07-12 15:57:59 <JackRabiit> Epscy, What if i payed you back THREE HUNDRED PERCENT
1508 2011-07-12 15:58:04 <xelister> JackRabiit: do you have webcam? are you hot girl?
1509 2011-07-12 15:58:04 <JackRabiit> lol
1510 2011-07-12 15:58:23 <JackRabiit> Ahahahaha!, Gotta cam, But im male
1511 2011-07-12 15:58:34 <JackRabiit> unless your into that kinda thing
1512 2011-07-12 15:58:43 <JackRabiit> heh
1513 2011-07-12 15:59:24 <xelister> no ;_;
1514 2011-07-12 15:59:41 <JackRabiit> wait, wait wait, someone send me .01btc and i'll repay you FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT
1515 2011-07-12 15:59:44 <Joric> JackRabiit, play http://bitcoin-kamikaze.com chances to win 4/1 on the first tier
1516 2011-07-12 15:59:59 <JackRabiit> *eyeroll*
1517 2011-07-12 16:00:02 <JackRabiit> *click*
1518 2011-07-12 16:00:15 <xelister> JackRabiit: you have otc trust?
1519 2011-07-12 16:00:26 <JackRabiit> Yup a rating of 26 last time i checked
1520 2011-07-12 16:00:29 <xelister> webinterace :-[ ?
1521 2011-07-12 16:00:35 Titeuf_87 has joined
1522 2011-07-12 16:00:38 <xelister> JackRabiit: pm me your email
1523 2011-07-12 16:00:50 <xelister> JackRabiit: I give you now 0.01 btc and you will pay me back 0.05 btc when?
1524 2011-07-12 16:01:02 <JackRabiit> Once my miner gens .05 lawl
1525 2011-07-12 16:01:15 <xelister> max time? 3 days?
1526 2011-07-12 16:01:18 <JackRabiit> 1gh/sec
1527 2011-07-12 16:01:28 <JackRabiit> Lol if it takes me three days i'll give you a coin
1528 2011-07-12 16:01:32 <xelister> oki. what is your address?
1529 2011-07-12 16:02:14 <JackRabiit> .01btc @ 1GNn2YB2TEiaia1VBAMwv8gceHtmvsaBi7
1530 2011-07-12 16:02:20 <JackRabiit> Your addr?
1531 2011-07-12 16:02:56 <diki> ;;bc,calc 720000
1532 2011-07-12 16:02:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 720000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 15 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 5 seconds
1533 2011-07-12 16:03:54 <JFK911> haha
1534 2011-07-12 16:04:11 <diki> ;;bc,calc 1000000
1535 2011-07-12 16:04:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 11 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes, and 54 seconds
1536 2011-07-12 16:05:00 <JackRabiit> ./killself
1537 2011-07-12 16:06:34 <JFK911> oh cool one less miner
1538 2011-07-12 16:06:36 <JFK911> xD
1539 2011-07-12 16:07:23 Jkessler has joined
1540 2011-07-12 16:09:24 <JackRabiit> WHOS THE MYSTERY GOOD SAMARITAN
1541 2011-07-12 16:09:28 <JackRabiit> RAA!
1542 2011-07-12 16:10:01 <[Tycho]> Hello.
1543 2011-07-12 16:10:05 <Graet> lol high finance often ends in suicide
1544 2011-07-12 16:10:06 <Graet> :P
1545 2011-07-12 16:10:13 <Happy0> xd
1546 2011-07-12 16:10:17 <Happy0> xD*
1547 2011-07-12 16:10:47 <JackRabiit> Hello Techo
1548 2011-07-12 16:10:49 <JackRabiit> Whups
1549 2011-07-12 16:10:52 <JackRabiit> tycho
1550 2011-07-12 16:10:52 <JackRabiit> lol
1551 2011-07-12 16:11:07 <vrs> wait, 1ghash actually now actually finds a block every 11 weeks? daaaaamn~
1552 2011-07-12 16:11:25 <JackRabiit> lol yeah used to be 11days
1553 2011-07-12 16:12:25 <Marf> i have a great idea
1554 2011-07-12 16:12:45 <Marf> lets declare the first million of btc for not guilty
1555 2011-07-12 16:12:57 <Marf> that would stabilice the price
1556 2011-07-12 16:13:10 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1557 2011-07-12 16:13:25 <Marf> they were for free, so nobody is hurt ;D
1558 2011-07-12 16:13:42 <BlueMatt> that doesnt even make sense
1559 2011-07-12 16:13:47 <BlueMatt> declare coins not guilty?
1560 2011-07-12 16:13:59 <Marf> hmm
1561 2011-07-12 16:14:06 <Marf> dont know the english word
1562 2011-07-12 16:14:15 <sneak> acquit
1563 2011-07-12 16:14:24 <BlueMatt> you mean not valid?
1564 2011-07-12 16:14:24 <Marf> they should be kind of erased
1565 2011-07-12 16:14:31 <sneak> loeschen? :P
1566 2011-07-12 16:14:31 <Marf> yes
1567 2011-07-12 16:14:43 <BlueMatt> sneak: not quite english...
1568 2011-07-12 16:14:53 <sneak> BlueMatt: i was asking marf if that's what he meant
1569 2011-07-12 16:15:01 <Marf> ja
1570 2011-07-12 16:15:12 <BlueMatt> ah, well in this case loeschen doesnt quite translate to aquit
1571 2011-07-12 16:15:15 <sneak> Marf: your uni has one of the best de<->en dictionaries :)
1572 2011-07-12 16:15:21 <sneak> true
1573 2011-07-12 16:15:27 <Marf> thx ;D
1574 2011-07-12 16:15:34 <BlueMatt> I prefer dict.leo
1575 2011-07-12 16:16:07 <sneak> BlueMatt: where are you from?
1576 2011-07-12 16:16:18 <BlueMatt> us, but live in .de currently
1577 2011-07-12 16:16:23 <Marf> bitcoins should have be minded like gold, less at beginning, much in 1970 less now
1578 2011-07-12 16:16:34 <sneak> BlueMatt: cool, me too
1579 2011-07-12 16:16:42 * sneak is in Berlin
1580 2011-07-12 16:17:13 <BlueMatt> Marf: well the coins generated at the beginning means you get more uptake because those people bet on the potential for getting a ton of value out of worthless coins
1581 2011-07-12 16:17:26 * BlueMatt is not far from frankfurt
1582 2011-07-12 16:17:54 <Marf> there are to much early coins
1583 2011-07-12 16:18:05 <sneak> Marf: in your opinion
1584 2011-07-12 16:18:09 <Marf> 2 year adabtion should have been anticipated
1585 2011-07-12 16:18:12 <BlueMatt> maybe, but we probably wouldnt have gotten much uptake if there werent
1586 2011-07-12 16:18:40 <Marf> we never will know :(
1587 2011-07-12 16:18:40 <BlueMatt> we would probably have no one here if there were less coins generated earlier
1588 2011-07-12 16:19:49 <Marf> btc would have been rare from the beginning
1589 2011-07-12 16:20:18 <Marf> ok something else
1590 2011-07-12 16:20:34 <Marf> why is there no constant time for fnding a low hash
1591 2011-07-12 16:20:47 <Marf> and the lowest hash found is the winner
1592 2011-07-12 16:20:48 <BlueMatt> because of the way hashing algorithms work
1593 2011-07-12 16:20:57 <Marf> and gets the block?
1594 2011-07-12 16:20:59 <BlueMatt> no, its not the lowest hash
1595 2011-07-12 16:20:59 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1596 2011-07-12 16:21:05 <BlueMatt> its any hash lower than target
1597 2011-07-12 16:21:23 <Marf> yeah but if we would say lowest hash after 10 mins winn
1598 2011-07-12 16:21:30 <sipa> Marf: because the one thing the block chain is solved is providing a global clock in the network
1599 2011-07-12 16:21:31 nhodges has joined
1600 2011-07-12 16:21:40 <BlueMatt> then you have a ton or work figuring out who has the lowest hash
1601 2011-07-12 16:21:43 <sipa> your solutions requires everyone to agree on a global clock
1602 2011-07-12 16:21:51 <Marf> hmm
1603 2011-07-12 16:21:56 <Marf> thats not easy?
1604 2011-07-12 16:22:01 <lianj> no
1605 2011-07-12 16:22:01 <BlueMatt> not at all
1606 2011-07-12 16:22:28 <Marf> to sad
1607 2011-07-12 16:22:29 <sipa> that's one of the hardest things in distributed computing: proving you were first
1608 2011-07-12 16:22:31 <JFK911> it works in plenty of places
1609 2011-07-12 16:22:37 <JFK911> secure time is in lots of systems
1610 2011-07-12 16:22:50 <sipa> yes, it's possible with massive overhead
1611 2011-07-12 16:22:53 <sipa> or indeterminism
1612 2011-07-12 16:23:02 <Marf> bitcoin is overhead
1613 2011-07-12 16:23:10 <BlueMatt> but why add more?
1614 2011-07-12 16:23:11 <Marf> its build on overhead named mining
1615 2011-07-12 16:23:12 <Marf> ;D
1616 2011-07-12 16:23:14 <sipa> bitcoin solves it by allowing the block chain to be reorganized
1617 2011-07-12 16:23:37 <sipa> so not having a global state at all
1618 2011-07-12 16:23:37 <nanotube> JFK911: yes, lots of centralized systems. :)
1619 2011-07-12 16:23:38 <JFK911> well secure time is useful when you are billing for time or something
1620 2011-07-12 16:23:43 <JFK911> nanotube: ah yes
1621 2011-07-12 16:24:48 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
1622 2011-07-12 16:26:36 <Marf> it could be made by a system of trust, someone says i have found hash so and so, and tells neighbours, they say true, and propagate. if some node says no, it gets maked as bad
1623 2011-07-12 16:27:01 <Marf> votes of bad nodes count less and less
1624 2011-07-12 16:27:11 <lianj> Marf: bitcoin is there system where you need to trust nobody
1625 2011-07-12 16:27:11 <Marf> hmm
1626 2011-07-12 16:27:24 <Marf> yes
1627 2011-07-12 16:27:26 <Marf> i give up
1628 2011-07-12 16:27:27 <Marf> ;D
1629 2011-07-12 16:27:33 <sipa> Marf: yes, your idea could work
1630 2011-07-12 16:27:37 <sipa> but it wouldn't be bitcoin
1631 2011-07-12 16:27:48 <sipa> it would have different advantages and disadvantages
1632 2011-07-12 16:28:19 <Marf> wow that makes me proud
1633 2011-07-12 16:28:19 <Marf> ;D
1634 2011-07-12 16:28:29 <Marf> *running to patent it*
1635 2011-07-12 16:28:30 <Marf> ;D
1636 2011-07-12 16:29:11 <Marf> theres trust in bitcoin too, we all have the trust more than 1/2 is trustable
1637 2011-07-12 16:29:53 <Marf> just more than half must have same time too in my system
1638 2011-07-12 16:30:27 <lianj> no
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1641 2011-07-12 16:37:04 <Marf> an other way
1642 2011-07-12 16:37:27 <Marf> the difficulty could be a function of time since the last block was found
1643 2011-07-12 16:38:03 traviscj has joined
1644 2011-07-12 16:38:04 <Marf> big gaps would be more seldom
1645 2011-07-12 16:38:29 <gmaxwell> ...::sigh::...
1646 2011-07-12 16:38:35 <gmaxwell> Marf: that wouldn't technically work.
1647 2011-07-12 16:39:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dnsseed problems was too many connections on an upstream router, trying to back off on the rate of checking and see if it helps
1648 2011-07-12 16:39:21 <BlueMatt> well, on the vm server...
1649 2011-07-12 16:40:08 <gmaxwell> marf: The bitcoin blockchain solves the problem of how a distributed system can agree on the time. You can't embeded another time agreement problem inside it and expect to get good results.
1650 2011-07-12 16:40:46 <Marf> comeone
1651 2011-07-12 16:40:48 gim has joined
1652 2011-07-12 16:40:55 <Marf> iam just brainstorming
1653 2011-07-12 16:41:08 <Marf> i have the feeling theres space for improving
1654 2011-07-12 16:41:20 <Marf> improvment
1655 2011-07-12 16:41:28 <gmaxwell> You're spamming the channel with half formed unworkable ideas when you clearly don't understand the background subject matter very well.
1656 2011-07-12 16:41:43 <gmaxwell> Go spend a couple days studying and thinking.
1657 2011-07-12 16:41:59 erus` has joined
1658 2011-07-12 16:42:00 <Marf> :P
1659 2011-07-12 16:42:08 <gmaxwell> Then you will be able to discard bad and incomplete ideas on your own, and your suggestions will be better.
1660 2011-07-12 16:42:19 <Marf> i dont like you
1661 2011-07-12 16:42:24 <gmaxwell> Sorry.
1662 2011-07-12 16:43:37 <Graet> happens a lot to ppl that speak the truth
1663 2011-07-12 16:43:41 AStove has joined
1664 2011-07-12 16:44:51 <Marf> i like sipa
1665 2011-07-12 16:44:59 <Marf> <sipa>Marf: yes, your idea could work
1666 2011-07-12 16:45:01 <Marf> ;D
1667 2011-07-12 16:45:02 mosimo has joined
1668 2011-07-12 16:45:41 <gmaxwell> Well, your prior suggestion was just badâ and rejected by people who thought of building similar systems in the past, not completely unworkable.
1669 2011-07-12 16:46:02 sipa has left ()
1670 2011-07-12 16:46:37 <gmaxwell> What happens when I start up proxies on 100,000 botnet nodes, and then make them all pretend to be Marfcoin nodes? And they happily vote for transactions which are in my interest?
1671 2011-07-12 16:47:00 <Marf> than not half the system is trustable
1672 2011-07-12 16:47:08 <gmaxwell> This is called a sibyl attack and its possible because identities are very cheap.
1673 2011-07-12 16:47:41 <gmaxwell> Marf: if you measure half the system in terms of apparent nodes then I can compromise it from my laptop and spend very little time and money to do so.
1674 2011-07-12 16:47:46 <Marf> hm nodes could vote on found hashes mith ther own best found hash after 10 minuits
1675 2011-07-12 16:48:08 <Marf> so its hard to get identy
1676 2011-07-12 16:48:13 <gmaxwell> This weakness is why bitcoin doesn't use node voting.
1677 2011-07-12 16:49:30 <gmaxwell> In any case, sure, you could combine it with POW so its not horribly weak, but then the voting part doesn't add much/any value since you still haven't made identites expensive.
1678 2011-07-12 16:49:44 quellhor1t has joined
1679 2011-07-12 16:50:51 <Marf> vote is strong if hash is strong
1680 2011-07-12 16:51:09 <Marf> it would be as hard to get a identy as in current bitcoin
1681 2011-07-12 16:52:28 <Marf> ill think about it and start bettercoin in 1 or two moths ;D
1682 2011-07-12 16:52:31 <gmaxwell> This was why I said it didn't add anything. The security then depends only on the difficulty of hashing. Worse: people who are willing to do the really easy sibyl attack get an unfair advantage.
1683 2011-07-12 16:52:36 <gmaxwell> Good luck!
1684 2011-07-12 16:52:56 <Marf> how is sybl posible?
1685 2011-07-12 16:53:05 <Marf> there votes dont count
1686 2011-07-12 16:53:18 <Marf> they have no processing spend to get a hash
1687 2011-07-12 16:53:51 <gmaxwell> ...
1688 2011-07-12 16:54:16 <gmaxwell> If you use the node topology for anything at all then the attack is possible.
1689 2011-07-12 16:54:25 conjre has joined
1690 2011-07-12 16:54:26 <gmaxwell> If you don't use it for anything, then you just have bitcoin.
1691 2011-07-12 16:54:46 <Marf> you can use topology in bitcoin two
1692 2011-07-12 16:54:47 <Marf> too
1693 2011-07-12 16:54:58 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1694 2011-07-12 16:55:03 <Marf> if a node connects just to bad ones, hes lost
1695 2011-07-12 16:55:09 glitch-mod has joined
1696 2011-07-12 16:55:16 sytse has joined
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1698 2011-07-12 16:57:00 <gmaxwell> For example. Say Alice has 2GH/s, Bob has 1GH/s, and Malory has 0 hash/s, and lets say system uses topology so that Alice and bob would have equal votes, but also hashing so Malory still has zero, and malory can't spin up 1000 'nodes' to right the vote.
1699 2011-07-12 16:57:06 <nanotube> gmaxwell: heh, every newcomer to bitcoin has to get the "zomg but if we do it this way it'll be better and we won't have to waste cpu power to hash useless stuff!!11one" out of his system. :)
1700 2011-07-12 16:57:12 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1701 2011-07-12 16:57:27 <gmaxwell> But in that case Alice could cheat by spliting herself into Alice1 and Alice2, each with 1GH/s.
1702 2011-07-12 16:57:44 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1703 2011-07-12 16:57:50 <gmaxwell> nanotube: sure, but many of us are polite enough to shut up and read during that time period. :)
1704 2011-07-12 16:58:13 <nanotube> hehe
1705 2011-07-12 16:58:16 alanp has joined
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1707 2011-07-12 16:58:58 <BlueMatt> is there a valid reason why SyncWithWallets/CWallet::AddToWallet's fUpdate would ever be false?
1708 2011-07-12 16:59:01 Marf has joined
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1710 2011-07-12 17:00:17 <gmaxwell> Marf: you're right that if you connect to all bad nodes then thats bad. But /mostly/ all the bad nodes can do is DOS you.
1711 2011-07-12 17:01:01 <gmaxwell> Marf: and because the chance of that happening is (Probablity_of_connecting_to_a_bad_node)^number_of_connections it is a quite difficult attack, for low reward.
1712 2011-07-12 17:01:32 <Marf> if the one node is rich
1713 2011-07-12 17:01:41 <Marf> it can be high reward
1714 2011-07-12 17:01:59 <Marf> how would alice split?
1715 2011-07-12 17:02:21 <gmaxwell> Marf: No, one one being rich doesn't make it high reward.
1716 2011-07-12 17:02:49 <Marf> if you sell him btc
1717 2011-07-12 17:02:53 <Marf> fake btc
1718 2011-07-12 17:02:58 <Marf> for real monney
1719 2011-07-12 17:03:02 <gmaxwell> You can't sell him fake btc.
1720 2011-07-12 17:03:14 <Marf> if hes just connected to you
1721 2011-07-12 17:03:23 <Marf> you can pretend everything
1722 2011-07-12 17:03:28 <Marf> well i dont care
1723 2011-07-12 17:03:30 <gmaxwell> Nope.
1724 2011-07-12 17:03:39 <Marf> tell me how alice would split her
1725 2011-07-12 17:03:39 <gmaxwell> You can't produce a real looking block chain without a lot of hash power.
1726 2011-07-12 17:03:43 <Marf> to get 2 votes
1727 2011-07-12 17:04:15 <Marf> she still needs hashes
1728 2011-07-12 17:04:23 <gmaxwell> Marf: by starting two copies of the software and putting half her computing power on each.
1729 2011-07-12 17:04:47 <Marf> than she just has the same votingpower as if she doesnt split!
1730 2011-07-12 17:05:01 Pinion has joined
1731 2011-07-12 17:05:09 <gmaxwell> Then the system isn't using the topology for _anything_, it's isomorphic to the current system.
1732 2011-07-12 17:05:40 <Marf> but a new block every 10 minits
1733 2011-07-12 17:05:45 alanp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1734 2011-07-12 17:05:46 <Marf> that would be good
1735 2011-07-12 17:06:10 <Marf> but more traffic
1736 2011-07-12 17:06:13 <Marf> its a trade
1737 2011-07-12 17:06:16 <gmaxwell> You've just changed subjects.
1738 2011-07-12 17:06:21 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1739 2011-07-12 17:06:32 <Marf> sorry
1740 2011-07-12 17:06:45 <Marf> i just want a hard coded time from block to block
1741 2011-07-12 17:06:58 <gmaxwell> The new block every X minutes is unworkable becuase the network doesn't have global agreement on time.
1742 2011-07-12 17:06:58 <Marf> to make bitcoin more robust
1743 2011-07-12 17:07:01 Pinion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1746 2011-07-12 17:07:26 <Marf> solved by the trustwothy votes
1747 2011-07-12 17:07:41 <gmaxwell> Then you can cheat that process by splitting yourself.
1748 2011-07-12 17:07:50 <Marf> no
1749 2011-07-12 17:08:03 <Marf> 2*0.5 vote = 1 * 1 vote
1750 2011-07-12 17:08:15 <gmaxwell> Alice becomes Alice1 and Alice2, and then both say their own hashes were most correctly timed.
1751 2011-07-12 17:09:27 <Marf> hm not sure i understand you
1752 2011-07-12 17:10:00 <gmaxwell> Well, I think I was misunderstanding what you were most recenly thinking.
1753 2011-07-12 17:10:02 <Marf> they wouldnt get other votes for there hash
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1755 2011-07-12 17:11:44 <gmaxwell> You haven't now proposed something concrete enough for me to comment. I could imagine what you might propose, but then you will inevitably have proposed someting else.
1756 2011-07-12 17:12:06 <Marf> sorry for wasting your time
1757 2011-07-12 17:12:14 <Marf> ill try to formulate it a bit better
1758 2011-07-12 17:12:40 <Marf> and tell it than again
1759 2011-07-12 17:12:46 <gmaxwell> E.g. you could have nodes switch to mining to "vote" for which block was a the right time, in order to vote for it.
1760 2011-07-12 17:13:07 <Marf> no
1761 2011-07-12 17:13:16 <gmaxwell> But then the system still has unpredictable timining because the voting process to pick the winner would be unpredictable.
1762 2011-07-12 17:13:23 <gmaxwell> Of course...
1763 2011-07-12 17:13:33 <Marf> the search for a low hash produces a strong vote too
1764 2011-07-12 17:13:59 <Marf> voting and saerching a hash is nearly the same
1765 2011-07-12 17:14:09 <gmaxwell> People have previously proposed "in 10 minutes, announce your best hash"
1766 2011-07-12 17:14:19 <midnightmagic> hey is that timing sampling attack phantomcircuit was on about months ago still possible?
1767 2011-07-12 17:14:24 <Marf> but no voting with there best hash
1768 2011-07-12 17:14:31 <gmaxwell> but it has the flaw that there is no way to agree on 10 minutes, so I have an incentive to spend 11 minutes to find a _better_ hash.
1769 2011-07-12 17:14:47 <Marf> by than most votes are gone
1770 2011-07-12 17:14:48 * midnightmagic apologizes in advance and goes away
1771 2011-07-12 17:14:56 <Marf> and no more votes over for that old hash
1772 2011-07-12 17:15:21 <Marf> left over
1773 2011-07-12 17:15:23 <gmaxwell> Marf: if the votes mean anything then they take an unpredictable amount of time.
1774 2011-07-12 17:15:29 <gmaxwell> (if they are POW votes)
1775 2011-07-12 17:15:43 <Marf> sorry pow?
1776 2011-07-12 17:15:52 <midnightmagic> proof of work
1777 2011-07-12 17:16:14 <gmaxwell> We're just wasting time. Spend a while writing it up and thinking through the details, an I'll comment then.
1778 2011-07-12 17:16:27 <Marf> yes
1779 2011-07-12 17:16:50 <Marf> i need one information
1780 2011-07-12 17:16:56 <Marf> how many miners are out there?
1781 2011-07-12 17:17:06 <Marf> running in the moment can that be said?
1782 2011-07-12 17:17:13 <midnightmagic> consider posting it on the forum too: there's a strong need of more signal there
1783 2011-07-12 17:17:56 <midnightmagic> there's no way of knowing the number of miners, only the approximatehashrate based on the speed of new blocks andcurrent target
1784 2011-07-12 17:18:15 <Marf> hmmm
1785 2011-07-12 17:18:19 <Marf> number of nodes?
1786 2011-07-12 17:18:33 <midnightmagic> onlyvery very roughly
1787 2011-07-12 17:18:36 <Marf> that number should be upper bound ;D
1788 2011-07-12 17:18:52 <Marf> pls tell my your guess
1789 2011-07-12 17:19:10 <gmaxwell> No, because pooled miners may not even be running bitcoin.
1790 2011-07-12 17:19:16 <midnightmagic> there are estimates out there which i havent bothered to watch
1791 2011-07-12 17:19:33 <Marf> pooled miners are one miner
1792 2011-07-12 17:19:36 <Marf> in my eyes
1793 2011-07-12 17:19:44 <midnightmagic> because the estimates are meaningless..
1794 2011-07-12 17:19:46 <gmaxwell> only due to an unfortunate accident of the system.
1795 2011-07-12 17:19:47 <b4epoche> (total hash rate)/(some estimate of an average miner's hash rate)
1796 2011-07-12 17:20:44 <Marf> maybe 40 000 miners at most
1797 2011-07-12 17:21:00 <Marf> thx
1798 2011-07-12 17:21:04 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1799 2011-07-12 17:21:20 <midnightmagic> that seems high
1800 2011-07-12 17:21:26 <Marf> yeah
1801 2011-07-12 17:21:36 <Marf> but most are in pool
1802 2011-07-12 17:21:47 <Marf> so in reality maybe 100
1803 2011-07-12 17:22:02 <midnightmagic> that's way low :-)
1804 2011-07-12 17:22:03 <midnightmagic> lol
1805 2011-07-12 17:22:16 <Marf> pool is one miner
1806 2011-07-12 17:22:31 <Marf> not all the connected guys to that pool count
1807 2011-07-12 17:22:44 <Marf> just the operater needs to be timesynced
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1820 2011-07-12 17:55:46 <senseles> Would anyone mind helping me calculate mhash/s from the number of shares submitted? The current algo I'm using is $userspeed=$shares*2^32/$current; $current being the timestamp of the initial share minus $now (which should give the number of seconds between then and now). However the number is way more than it should be
1821 2011-07-12 17:56:08 <senseles> or $now minus the initial timestamp i mean
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1829 2011-07-12 18:01:05 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
1830 2011-07-12 18:01:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135935 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1152 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1594020.61951803
1831 2011-07-12 18:03:16 Zagitta has joined
1832 2011-07-12 18:04:25 <Zagitta> anyone have a link for what part of the hashed block is what?
1833 2011-07-12 18:05:35 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1834 2011-07-12 18:08:07 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: did you want this? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
1835 2011-07-12 18:08:44 edcba has joined
1836 2011-07-12 18:11:02 <Zagitta> i actually looked at that yesterday... I must have been tired. None the less, that site essentially sais that the bytes from 4 to 36 of the data recieved from a miner is the hash of the previous block, right?
1837 2011-07-12 18:11:09 wardearia has joined
1838 2011-07-12 18:12:40 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: yes.
1839 2011-07-12 18:13:20 <Zagitta> awesome, thanks! gimme your address so i can donate a bit :)
1840 2011-07-12 18:13:27 torsthaldo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1841 2011-07-12 18:14:02 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: ha, okay 1LjPAUKf23kDBy9sLJbiLfsvjde3ZdHcbJ
1842 2011-07-12 18:15:21 maikmerten has joined
1843 2011-07-12 18:16:25 <Zagitta> and sent :) you saved me one hell of trouble looking over the pushpool source and then translating it into c#
1844 2011-07-12 18:16:41 <cuddlefish> Zagitta: c#? eeeeew.
1845 2011-07-12 18:16:54 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: thanks!
1846 2011-07-12 18:17:06 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: no programming language wars.
1847 2011-07-12 18:17:15 <Zagitta> what's wrong with C# now? >:
1848 2011-07-12 18:17:16 reflect_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1849 2011-07-12 18:17:18 kytibe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1850 2011-07-12 18:17:31 <gmaxwell> Besides, every good hacker knows that intercal is the BEST language.
1851 2011-07-12 18:17:34 <xelister> Zagitta: it's gayified c++ that wantes to be java for windows ;)
1852 2011-07-12 18:17:54 <xelister> Zagitta: it's gayified c++ that wants to be java for windows ;)
1853 2011-07-12 18:17:59 <Zagitta> yet it can do pretty much everything c++ can...
1854 2011-07-12 18:18:13 <xelister> can it do
1855 2011-07-12 18:18:14 <cuddlefish> Zagitta: I'll give you that it's turing complete
1856 2011-07-12 18:18:19 <Zagitta> hellol
1857 2011-07-12 18:18:20 <xelister> * not needing NET gaywork to work
1858 2011-07-12 18:18:23 <Zagitta> *lol
1859 2011-07-12 18:18:23 TD has joined
1860 2011-07-12 18:18:38 <xelister> * not depend on propertiary microsoft crap with possible licencing issues
1861 2011-07-12 18:18:55 <xelister> * have well established position in the Industry with like 20 years tradition
1862 2011-07-12 18:18:58 Nexus7 has joined
1863 2011-07-12 18:18:59 Joric has joined
1864 2011-07-12 18:19:03 <gmaxwell> xelister: this discussion is OT and not likely to ever get resolved.
1865 2011-07-12 18:19:19 <xelister> I just resolved it, 3 shoots 3 hits and it goes dooooown
1866 2011-07-12 18:19:43 <Zagitta> use whatever programming language you're best at, that's my opinion
1867 2011-07-12 18:20:05 <cuddlefish> Zagitta: then which programming language should you learn? :P
1868 2011-07-12 18:20:41 <Zagitta> which ever the enviroment you're in introduces you to and you like the most
1869 2011-07-12 18:21:35 <Zagitta> either way, lets not be programming racists and hate other desktop programming languages... lets hate PHP instead :P
1870 2011-07-12 18:21:54 kytibe has joined
1871 2011-07-12 18:22:12 <Joric> i'm wondering what could be worse than php
1872 2011-07-12 18:22:18 <gmaxwell> Brainfuck.
1873 2011-07-12 18:22:26 <xelister> Joric: visual basic
1874 2011-07-12 18:22:40 again is now known as tower
1875 2011-07-12 18:22:41 <AndyBr> worse than php? well, i write .net so not going into this discussion!
1876 2011-07-12 18:22:54 <Joric> no, i mean what desktop programming language was mentioned?
1877 2011-07-12 18:22:57 <gmaxwell> http://funstuff.lefora.com/2008/03/10/hierarchy-programming-languages/
1878 2011-07-12 18:23:35 <AndyBr> i remember some years ago, people would call compiled languages programming and everything else script... and think that was a really big deal
1879 2011-07-12 18:23:43 <Joric> http://imgur.com/gallery/bqZXo
1880 2011-07-12 18:23:48 <AndyBr> mIRC script is pretty terrible, only global variables, etc. well, at least when i wrote in it
1881 2011-07-12 18:24:27 <Joric> AndyBr, i just wrote gpg authentication on it
1882 2011-07-12 18:24:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, that chart should really have arrows going from every language to every other one...
1883 2011-07-12 18:24:32 <gmaxwell> I thought mIRC script was TCL.
1884 2011-07-12 18:24:43 <cuddlefish> wut... why is Perl above Python
1885 2011-07-12 18:24:54 <AndyBr> Joric: i'm not saying it's anything but insanely awesome. i wrote an irc client in it, before mirc had multi server support
1886 2011-07-12 18:25:11 <Joric> http://i55.tinypic.com/aov0xu.png
1887 2011-07-12 18:25:37 <AndyBr> that's a nice chart, gmax, but C# programmers think they're better than everyone excluding C, C++, COBOL, ASM :D
1888 2011-07-12 18:25:40 <Joric> src http://pastebin.com/dsJnXrQR
1889 2011-07-12 18:25:48 <lianj> ruby yay! :P
1890 2011-07-12 18:26:06 <cuddlefish> lianj: Ruby, because we can't figure out how Python indentation works
1891 2011-07-12 18:26:09 <AndyBr> Joric: you are god
1892 2011-07-12 18:26:56 <AndyBr> nicely written too
1893 2011-07-12 18:27:41 <lianj> cuddlefish: and we like choices :D
1894 2011-07-12 18:28:00 <cuddlefish> lianj: this is the internet, please stop responding rationally
1895 2011-07-12 18:28:21 <AndyBr> perl should be above everything and vice versa
1896 2011-07-12 18:28:34 <lianj> heh
1897 2011-07-12 18:29:16 <AndyBr> it's like the vim vs ide thing. i've consistently thought people who vim are insane for as long as i've known of it, but it's popular so.. has to be something attractive about it
1898 2011-07-12 18:29:33 <cuddlefish> AndyBr: Emacs. the feature set expands with available RAM!
1899 2011-07-12 18:29:44 <AndyBr> haha, that's a good statement
1900 2011-07-12 18:30:03 <ersi> Damn freenode channels and their programming nerds
1901 2011-07-12 18:30:13 <lianj> vim. because we like to use all of our fingers
1902 2011-07-12 18:30:14 <cuddlefish> ersi: you /are/ in #bitcoin-dev...
1903 2011-07-12 18:30:15 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1904 2011-07-12 18:30:31 <ersi> I know. I'm just stating an repeated observeration
1905 2011-07-12 18:30:43 Pinion has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1906 2011-07-12 18:30:48 cuddlefish has quit (Quit: leaving)
1907 2011-07-12 18:30:56 <AndyBr> whenever i hear emacs or java, i just assume people got it forced onto them at university and never learned something else
1908 2011-07-12 18:31:01 <ersi> Either flamewars or discussions about the flamewars, which turns out in the long end to be a flamewar
1909 2011-07-12 18:31:25 <ersi> Use what you like
1910 2011-07-12 18:31:27 <AndyBr> was hoping for a flamewar, but now my 30 sec IDE restart is done so i can return to coding
1911 2011-07-12 18:31:44 <lianj> meta-flamewars
1912 2011-07-12 18:31:56 <Zagitta> *we didn't start the flamewar*
1913 2011-07-12 18:32:06 <AndyBr> are there other bitcoin clients than the official one? (that are usable)
1914 2011-07-12 18:32:17 <AndyBr> it doesn't seem very complex, from briefly looking at the source
1915 2011-07-12 18:32:28 <Joric> true hierarchy of programmers http://i.imgur.com/Tn56w.jpg
1916 2011-07-12 18:32:42 <ersi> AndyBr: Had a look at Jbitcoin?
1917 2011-07-12 18:32:52 Speeder has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1918 2011-07-12 18:32:58 <AndyBr> ersi: nope, what's it written in?
1919 2011-07-12 18:33:10 <ersi> Take a wild guess, based on the initial letter
1920 2011-07-12 18:33:11 <ersi> :)
1921 2011-07-12 18:33:17 TD has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1922 2011-07-12 18:33:21 <lianj> http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg
1923 2011-07-12 18:33:24 TD has joined
1924 2011-07-12 18:33:25 _nomit has joined
1925 2011-07-12 18:33:27 <justmoon> ersi, link? or do you mean BitcoinJ
1926 2011-07-12 18:33:35 <AndyBr> ersi: javascript or java
1927 2011-07-12 18:33:42 <lianj> java
1928 2011-07-12 18:33:49 <ersi> i meant bitcoinj, sorry.
1929 2011-07-12 18:33:56 <AndyBr> five years ago i wouldnt think about js, but it's a cancer that won't stop spreading :P
1930 2011-07-12 18:34:15 <justmoon> AndyBr, lol, guess I shouldn't recommend my client BitcoinJS then: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p
1931 2011-07-12 18:34:38 <lianj> justmoon: was it fun to parse?
1932 2011-07-12 18:34:41 <TD> "it doesn't seem very complex, from briefly looking at the source", lol
1933 2011-07-12 18:34:49 <TD> yes. that's what i thought too, haha :)
1934 2011-07-12 18:34:50 <justmoon> TD:lol, yeah thought the same thing
1935 2011-07-12 18:34:51 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1936 2011-07-12 18:35:00 <lianj> TD: haha yea
1937 2011-07-12 18:35:12 nomit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1938 2011-07-12 18:35:25 MetaV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1939 2011-07-12 18:35:36 <Joric> even mongodb is better than what we're having now
1940 2011-07-12 18:35:37 <ersi> I think most people let out a little laugh at that
1941 2011-07-12 18:35:40 <AndyBr> justmoon: how are these JS miners coming along?
1942 2011-07-12 18:35:41 docetes has joined
1943 2011-07-12 18:36:36 <AndyBr> ersi: well, when i started reading at what bitcoin does, i envisioned something insanely huge, and was pleasantly surprised at how -relatively- little source code there is for the official one
1944 2011-07-12 18:36:43 <justmoon> AndyBr, there is a project called JsMiner, so I'm not sure if you're confusing me with that
1945 2011-07-12 18:37:01 <Joric> i just wrote a showwallet branch but on python https://github.com/joric/pywallet
1946 2011-07-12 18:37:04 <AndyBr> justmoon: i'm not, just assumed you'd know something about other bitcoin related js projects... more than me anyway
1947 2011-07-12 18:37:41 Speeder has joined
1948 2011-07-12 18:37:41 <docetes> hi
1949 2011-07-12 18:37:42 <justmoon> AndyBr, I know that js mining is pretty pointless unless you can somehow use WebGL or upcoming WebCL
1950 2011-07-12 18:38:05 <gmaxwell> There are alreadt webcl mining sites.
1951 2011-07-12 18:38:15 <justmoon> gmaxwell, o rly?
1952 2011-07-12 18:38:18 <AndyBr> interesting
1953 2011-07-12 18:38:34 <justmoon> ah indeed there are
1954 2011-07-12 18:38:35 koleg has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1955 2011-07-12 18:38:36 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1956 2011-07-12 18:40:22 <Joric> i'm writting glsl miner (pixel shaders :) still have no idea about speed probably it would be slower than the cpu one )
1957 2011-07-12 18:41:40 eternal1 has joined
1958 2011-07-12 18:43:16 <Joric> i'm filling a texture with start values then rendering a quad with that texture calling glsl subroutine for every pixel
1959 2011-07-12 18:43:25 <lianj> interesting, how is that different from opencl?
1960 2011-07-12 18:43:40 <Joric> totally :)
1961 2011-07-12 18:44:14 <lianj> implementing sha256 in pixelshaders?
1962 2011-07-12 18:44:21 <Joric> yeah
1963 2011-07-12 18:44:42 <lianj> cool, push the code once it works, even if its slower
1964 2011-07-12 18:45:48 slux has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1965 2011-07-12 18:46:23 <jgarzik> someone already wrote a glsl miner, I thought
1966 2011-07-12 18:46:34 <Joric> i didn't see any
1967 2011-07-12 18:46:35 <BlueMatt> there was work, not sure what the result was
1968 2011-07-12 18:47:07 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1969 2011-07-12 18:47:07 <jgarzik> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4618.msg191488#msg191488
1970 2011-07-12 18:47:31 <Joric> there was a sha256.glsl floating around but it's very unfinished
1971 2011-07-12 18:47:34 <jgarzik> and http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27056.0
1972 2011-07-12 18:48:03 <Joric> oh cool someone wrote webgl miner already
1973 2011-07-12 18:49:00 tower has quit (Quit: | ReactOS - The FOSS alternative to MS Windows! | http://www.reactos.org/ | join #ReactOS |)
1974 2011-07-12 18:50:08 again has joined
1975 2011-07-12 18:50:22 again is now known as tower
1976 2011-07-12 18:51:30 gjs278 has joined
1977 2011-07-12 18:52:42 p0s- is now known as p0s
1978 2011-07-12 18:55:44 wardearia has joined
1979 2011-07-12 18:56:00 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1980 2011-07-12 18:56:56 <sneak> what is mr andressen's nick?
1981 2011-07-12 18:57:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen
1982 2011-07-12 18:57:26 <sneak> i want to ask him about his presentation at langley, i am giving another bitcoin talk this week
1983 2011-07-12 18:57:37 * sneak gave his first one last december
1984 2011-07-12 18:57:40 <BlueMatt> hes out of the country for a while...
1985 2011-07-12 18:57:50 <sneak> irc is a country?
1986 2011-07-12 18:58:01 p0s is now known as p0s-
1987 2011-07-12 18:58:03 <BlueMatt> out of his home country and doesnt have good internet
1988 2011-07-12 18:58:06 <BlueMatt> not sure for how long...
1989 2011-07-12 18:58:22 <BlueMatt> or atleast...isnt on irc
1990 2011-07-12 18:58:31 <BlueMatt> maybe you can forum pm him and get a response
1991 2011-07-12 18:58:47 <sneak> i'll email him
1992 2011-07-12 18:58:54 <BlueMatt> that works too
1993 2011-07-12 18:58:57 <sneak> i still have my old slides, gonna update 'em
1994 2011-07-12 19:00:51 p0s- is now known as p0s
1995 2011-07-12 19:02:02 docetes has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1996 2011-07-12 19:02:37 <gmaxwell> Someone had posted slides on the forum that were pretty good.
1997 2011-07-12 19:02:48 * gmaxwell searches
1998 2011-07-12 19:03:18 <gmaxwell> sneak: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=20251
1999 2011-07-12 19:03:22 <Joric> did anyone make that webgl miner to work? it hangs
2000 2011-07-12 19:04:10 <Joric> i've tried all flags in the chrome canary build
2001 2011-07-12 19:04:50 Raccoon` has joined
2002 2011-07-12 19:05:01 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
2003 2011-07-12 19:05:42 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2004 2011-07-12 19:06:07 b4epoche_ has joined
2005 2011-07-12 19:06:56 <Blitzboom> i wonder how satoshi would feel about that (NSFW!) http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3664/photo9yn.jpg
2006 2011-07-12 19:07:35 <Joric> Livestock branding
2007 2011-07-12 19:07:38 <lianj> hehe
2008 2011-07-12 19:10:50 <Marf> terrilbe
2009 2011-07-12 19:10:57 conjre has joined
2010 2011-07-12 19:11:13 <Marf> and its not a beautifull wommen it seems
2011 2011-07-12 19:11:38 <edcba> hard to say
2012 2011-07-12 19:11:40 <Blitzboom> Marf: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27958.msg353006#msg353006
2013 2011-07-12 19:12:11 <AndyBr> someone tattooed bitcoin logo? well done
2014 2011-07-12 19:12:17 <Marf> hmmm
2015 2011-07-12 19:12:26 <Marf> ok looks not too bad it seems
2016 2011-07-12 19:12:49 <AndyBr> contributes to inflation because it makes it more popular -> my money worth more -> woman is making me money with sex -> i'm indirectly pimping
2017 2011-07-12 19:13:33 <lianj> Marf: thinking about mtgox while having fun with her is kinda bad :D
2018 2011-07-12 19:13:55 danbri has joined
2019 2011-07-12 19:14:33 <Marf> it would me make wanne look at mtgoxlive
2020 2011-07-12 19:14:34 <Marf> ;D
2021 2011-07-12 19:14:58 <Marf> well no
2022 2011-07-12 19:15:00 <Joric> 'goxxed' tatoo
2023 2011-07-12 19:15:02 <Marf> thats not true
2024 2011-07-12 19:15:02 <Marf> ;D
2025 2011-07-12 19:15:18 <wumpus> lol
2026 2011-07-12 19:15:25 <Marf> my mind is of with wommen in bed and generaly
2027 2011-07-12 19:15:52 <wumpus> don't forget to tattoo your md5ed password
2028 2011-07-12 19:16:08 <Joric> i can't get it working http://bitcoin.biniok.net/gl.html anyone?
2029 2011-07-12 19:16:53 <Joric> i.e. everything works except webgl
2030 2011-07-12 19:18:20 <Marf> doesnt work for me too
2031 2011-07-12 19:18:28 <Marf> i have chrome 12
2032 2011-07-12 19:18:32 <Marf> should work
2033 2011-07-12 19:19:10 <Joric> i've tried chrome/chrome canary/ie10/ff5 with all possible settings
2034 2011-07-12 19:20:13 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2035 2011-07-12 19:21:16 <Marf> it works on my laptop
2036 2011-07-12 19:21:25 <Marf> with gma intel graphic
2037 2011-07-12 19:21:34 <Marf> so its just emulated i think
2038 2011-07-12 19:22:01 <Joric> i'm currently on gma 900 doesnt work for me
2039 2011-07-12 19:22:11 glassresistor has joined
2040 2011-07-12 19:22:28 <Marf> i get 1000 hash second
2041 2011-07-12 19:23:26 <Joric> 'webworker' is a waay too fast, 5 times faster than cpuminer, can't be
2042 2011-07-12 19:24:04 <Marf> i get 6 khash
2043 2011-07-12 19:24:08 <Marf> with webworker
2044 2011-07-12 19:24:16 <Marf> 1000 times slower than cpu miner
2045 2011-07-12 19:24:20 <wasabi3> I get 1516 hash/s
2046 2011-07-12 19:24:26 <wasabi3> Which is about 20 times slower than my CPU miner.
2047 2011-07-12 19:24:28 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2048 2011-07-12 19:24:49 <Marf> sure?
2049 2011-07-12 19:24:51 <wasabi3> Oh, that was js
2050 2011-07-12 19:24:55 <wasabi3> What's webworker?
2051 2011-07-12 19:25:02 <Marf> second option
2052 2011-07-12 19:25:15 <wasabi3> What's it do, though?
2053 2011-07-12 19:25:19 <wasabi3> I get about 12k with it.
2054 2011-07-12 19:25:26 <wasabi3> Which is still about 8k lower than SSE code
2055 2011-07-12 19:25:37 shLONG has joined
2056 2011-07-12 19:26:14 shLONG has quit (Client Quit)
2057 2011-07-12 19:26:23 <Marf> 12000 hash?
2058 2011-07-12 19:26:54 <Marf> doesnt a cpu get more than 1 000 000?
2059 2011-07-12 19:26:56 <Joric> i don't know this thing http://goo.gl/9e5IL works just fine, webgl miner won't
2060 2011-07-12 19:30:01 <Ramen> 1 mhs?
2061 2011-07-12 19:30:08 <Ramen> my cpu can hit about 5mhs
2062 2011-07-12 19:33:48 MiO has joined
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2064 2011-07-12 19:34:01 MiO is now known as Guest49741
2065 2011-07-12 19:35:02 ALLdayeveryd has quit ()
2066 2011-07-12 19:36:22 denisx has joined
2067 2011-07-12 19:39:01 <Zagitta> the current difficulty is 0000000000000ABBCF0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 would the compact form of this be 0000000000000ABBCF ?
2068 2011-07-12 19:39:18 <Marf> othet side arround
2069 2011-07-12 19:39:22 <Marf> other
2070 2011-07-12 19:39:25 <justmoon> Zagitta, no
2071 2011-07-12 19:39:28 <justmoon> Marf, no
2072 2011-07-12 19:39:37 <justmoon> the compact difficulty is encoded not just truncated
2073 2011-07-12 19:39:46 <Zagitta> aha
2074 2011-07-12 19:39:49 <justmoon> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
2075 2011-07-12 19:40:00 <justmoon> see "How is difficulty stored in blocks?"
2076 2011-07-12 19:40:03 sipa has joined
2077 2011-07-12 19:40:04 <AndyBr> http://bitcoin.biniok.net/gl.html seems to work on my laptop. <1K/sec
2078 2011-07-12 19:40:14 <Zagitta> thanks justmoon
2079 2011-07-12 19:41:06 <justmoon> Zagitta, make sure we're talking about the same "compact difficulty" - I'm talking about the one as it's stored in the block
2080 2011-07-12 19:41:14 <justmoon> if you mean something else my comments might not apply
2081 2011-07-12 19:41:55 AndyBr_ has joined
2082 2011-07-12 19:42:33 <AndyBr_> disregard that, crashed chrome when put in webgl mode
2083 2011-07-12 19:43:08 <Marf> how fast should that webgl miner be?
2084 2011-07-12 19:43:12 <Joric> AndyBr, who care about other modes
2085 2011-07-12 19:43:17 <Marf> compared to a standalone gpu miner
2086 2011-07-12 19:43:57 <sipa> 150H/s in javascript on my phone!
2087 2011-07-12 19:44:19 AndyBr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2088 2011-07-12 19:45:39 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2089 2011-07-12 19:46:18 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 0.15
2090 2011-07-12 19:46:20 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 0.15 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 9.65269064039e-08 BTC per day and 4.02195443349e-09 BTC per hour.
2091 2011-07-12 19:46:34 p0s is now known as p0s-
2092 2011-07-12 19:46:36 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 0.15
2093 2011-07-12 19:46:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 0.15 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 1419151 years, 24 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes, and 0 seconds
2094 2011-07-12 19:49:46 <Zagitta> it was the one stored in blocks :)
2095 2011-07-12 19:50:47 <Zagitta> now i've just run into the lovely limit of how big ints c# can store... Guess i'll have to look into BigInteger :(
2096 2011-07-12 19:51:34 <egecko_> c# supports int64
2097 2011-07-12 19:51:48 <egecko_> so 2^64 would be your maxint
2098 2011-07-12 19:51:52 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
2099 2011-07-12 19:52:40 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2100 2011-07-12 19:52:40 <nanotube> sipa: haha nice
2101 2011-07-12 19:53:03 <Zagitta> isn't the unpacked difficulty/target bigger than 64bit?
2102 2011-07-12 19:53:43 <nanotube> Zagitta: it is the size of a sha256 hash
2103 2011-07-12 19:53:43 devon_hillard has joined
2104 2011-07-12 19:54:36 <OneTimePad> Someone on the forums says you should change pushpool config for easy target to: 00000000028F6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 for difficulty 100. Shouldn't this be reversed to 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006F82000000000 ?
2105 2011-07-12 19:54:50 <MrSam> :)
2106 2011-07-12 19:55:07 <MrSam> below 00000000028F6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 some miners have problems
2107 2011-07-12 19:55:07 <nanotube> OneTimePad: no. that'd be a helluva large difficulty.
2108 2011-07-12 19:55:21 <nanotube> OneTimePad: the lower the target, the higher the difficulty
2109 2011-07-12 19:55:24 <MrSam> below/above
2110 2011-07-12 19:55:45 <OneTimePad> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27970.0
2111 2011-07-12 19:55:51 <OneTimePad> That is what I am referring to
2112 2011-07-12 19:56:08 <MrSam> lol
2113 2011-07-12 19:56:09 <MrSam> easy bounty
2114 2011-07-12 19:56:42 <OneTimePad> I thought so too, so I started messing around with it but am getting strange results
2115 2011-07-12 19:57:14 <MrSam> so now you come complaining here so we could give you the right answer ?
2116 2011-07-12 19:58:30 <OneTimePad> it's bothering me. I was working on part 2 of the question about better_hash but am getting unexpected results with the solution to part a.
2117 2011-07-12 19:59:03 PwnusMaximus has joined
2118 2011-07-12 19:59:25 <OneTimePad> I can't get part A to work. If I put in the first one he provides for 100 into my config, recompile, I hash away at 600 mhash for an hour without result. I turn it backwards (where you said it would be helluva hard) and I get shares accepted every few seconds...
2119 2011-07-12 19:59:28 Pinion has joined
2120 2011-07-12 19:59:57 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2121 2011-07-12 20:00:29 PwnusMaximus has quit (Client Quit)
2122 2011-07-12 20:00:35 PwnusMaximus has joined
2123 2011-07-12 20:02:30 <AndyBr_> Zagitta: .net supports signed and unsigned int64 and .net4 has some new big int classes
2124 2011-07-12 20:02:36 karnac has joined
2125 2011-07-12 20:02:47 <OneTimePad> And, default target set in pushpool for easy target is entered as: ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000
2126 2011-07-12 20:03:22 <nanotube> OneTimePad: probably flipped endianness
2127 2011-07-12 20:03:46 <nanotube> (on that 'what i said would be hard is easy' bit.
2128 2011-07-12 20:03:54 <nanotube> )
2129 2011-07-12 20:04:00 Zagitta_ has joined
2130 2011-07-12 20:04:13 <OneTimePad> so, if I want my difficulty to be 100 like the forum post, I need to reverse 00000000028F6000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ?
2131 2011-07-12 20:04:17 <Zagitta_> AndyBr_: Yeah i know, i'm playing around with BigInteger right now however i'm getting weird results
2132 2011-07-12 20:05:58 <AndyBr_> Zagitta: it supports any size number? never used it
2133 2011-07-12 20:06:19 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2134 2011-07-12 20:07:27 <Zagitta_> AndyBR_ Yeah, apperently it dynamically increase max size
2135 2011-07-12 20:07:30 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2136 2011-07-12 20:08:21 <AndyBr_> what timezone are times listed in listtransactions in? urc?
2137 2011-07-12 20:08:25 <AndyBr_> utc*
2138 2011-07-12 20:09:48 <Joric> what's 'account' in a wallet.db? is it currently in use?
2139 2011-07-12 20:10:16 liltoe has joined
2140 2011-07-12 20:11:05 <AndyBr_> Joric: it's called "label" in the gui
2141 2011-07-12 20:11:34 <Joric> nope
2142 2011-07-12 20:11:48 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/pywallet/blob/master/pywallet.py
2143 2011-07-12 20:12:04 <Joric> see 'acc'/'account' fields
2144 2011-07-12 20:13:01 <AndyBr_> Joric: http://i.imgur.com/WWQdw.png
2145 2011-07-12 20:13:56 <Joric> hm i thought those are in a 'name' record
2146 2011-07-12 20:13:59 prof7bit has joined
2147 2011-07-12 20:14:19 <Joric> oh it's transactions
2148 2011-07-12 20:15:35 <AndyBr_> http://pastebin.com/FjGq0L44
2149 2011-07-12 20:16:00 danbri has joined
2150 2011-07-12 20:16:46 <prof7bit> 31900 in the version message means (version 0.3.19), what does 209 mean? 0.0.2.19 ?
2151 2011-07-12 20:17:03 <BlueMatt> 0.2.9 I think
2152 2011-07-12 20:17:58 <prof7bit> 0.2.9 should be 20900 according to the logic in the example
2153 2011-07-12 20:18:20 <BlueMatt> the encoding format changed at some point
2154 2011-07-12 20:18:26 <prof7bit> but in the doc of the version header they are talking about version >= 209
2155 2011-07-12 20:18:55 <BlueMatt> ok
2156 2011-07-12 20:19:52 <BlueMatt> so?
2157 2011-07-12 20:20:13 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
2158 2011-07-12 20:20:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135954 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1133 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 16 hours, 25 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1602003.20629439
2159 2011-07-12 20:21:00 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2160 2011-07-12 20:21:45 <prof7bit> i'm trying to implement this protocol, so I will ask seemingly stupid questions from time to time...
2161 2011-07-12 20:25:38 <prof7bit> so it seems the current protocol version is 31402 according to the wiki. I could not find any mentioning of later versions, so I will announce myself as version 31402
2162 2011-07-12 20:25:58 Nicksasa has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2163 2011-07-12 20:25:58 Nicksasa_ is now known as Nicksasa
2164 2011-07-12 20:26:21 Beccara_ has joined
2165 2011-07-12 20:27:26 <justmoon> prof7bit, current client calls itself 32400
2166 2011-07-12 20:27:48 <prof7bit> yes, but I am only interested in protocol versions
2167 2011-07-12 20:28:11 <justmoon> that *is* the protocol version
2168 2011-07-12 20:28:14 Nick_ has joined
2169 2011-07-12 20:28:39 <prof7bit> if nothing changes in the protocol since then I won't use that number for no reason. if 31402 is the only version that is documented i cannot use anotrher version number.
2170 2011-07-12 20:28:41 Nick_ is now known as Guest79798
2171 2011-07-12 20:28:50 Guest79798 is now known as Nicksasa_
2172 2011-07-12 20:28:57 em has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2173 2011-07-12 20:29:59 <justmoon> prof7bit, are you trying to implement the protocol purely based on the information on the wiki?
2174 2011-07-12 20:30:10 <prof7bit> also if the protocol did not change then why would the protocol version numb
2175 2011-07-12 20:30:29 <prof7bit> wiki and reverse engineering if this does not help
2176 2011-07-12 20:31:03 <justmoon> prof7bit, the latest client contains a fix i suggested to avoid running into the sendbuffer limit - so it doesn't technically change the protocol, but it does behave differently
2177 2011-07-12 20:31:37 Zagitta_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2178 2011-07-12 20:31:41 <justmoon> if you end up imitating what the original client does (by reading the source) you should probably use the latest version number
2179 2011-07-12 20:32:49 <prof7bit> there needs to be a proper documentation of the protocol and protocol version numbers that don't have anything to do with the version number of *one* of x existing clients
2180 2011-07-12 20:33:07 <justmoon> couldn't agree more
2181 2011-07-12 20:34:06 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2182 2011-07-12 20:34:17 <AndyBr_> i'm thinking about updating wiki when i'm hung over some day. loove documenting when hung over
2183 2011-07-12 20:34:25 rethaw has joined
2184 2011-07-12 20:34:39 Zagitta has joined
2185 2011-07-12 20:35:41 Nexus7 has quit ()
2186 2011-07-12 20:35:52 <prof7bit> there are some IFs in my code now based on other peer's version numbers but to debug it I can only test it on a current client. When the other client behaves differently when I send a higher version number than 31402 then this must be documented along with the exact version where it changed.
2187 2011-07-12 20:37:38 <prof7bit> but i will make a break now, i have stared long enough at this monitor for today now.
2188 2011-07-12 20:38:00 conjre has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2189 2011-07-12 20:38:18 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2190 2011-07-12 20:38:59 WildSoil has joined
2191 2011-07-12 20:39:04 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
2192 2011-07-12 20:39:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 135956 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 1131 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 16 hours, 6 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1602206.30533430
2193 2011-07-12 20:40:43 tomat_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2194 2011-07-12 20:41:34 DontMindMe has joined
2195 2011-07-12 20:41:57 tomat has joined
2196 2011-07-12 20:42:39 dvide has joined
2197 2011-07-12 20:43:34 <Zagitta> What's the current version number in the block headers?
2198 2011-07-12 20:43:53 * prof7bit is away: abwesend
2199 2011-07-12 20:44:21 skeledrew has joined
2200 2011-07-12 20:45:27 <gmaxwell> Weird activity on testnet: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
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2202 2011-07-12 20:46:09 <b4epoche_> someone ramping the difficulty up?
2203 2011-07-12 20:46:35 mmoya has joined
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2205 2011-07-12 20:48:02 <gmaxwell> thats... kinda troubling.
2206 2011-07-12 20:48:23 <b4epoche_> but they stopped, no?
2207 2011-07-12 20:49:31 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2208 2011-07-12 20:49:52 <gmaxwell> Right, but if the timestamps aren't fake... each block takes an average of 6353 seconds of work at 340MH/s at that difficulty..
2209 2011-07-12 20:50:42 <b4epoche_> at 340MH/s? Where's that?
2210 2011-07-12 20:50:45 TD has joined
2211 2011-07-12 20:50:51 <gmaxwell> random gpu...
2212 2011-07-12 20:51:18 <b4epoche_> diff = 502.92155
2213 2011-07-12 20:51:31 <b4epoche_> I'm not sure how it's reported there but that seem rather low, no?
2214 2011-07-12 20:51:42 <gmaxwell> So they did 11 blocks in 132 seconds.
2215 2011-07-12 20:51:46 <gmaxwell> it's testnet.
2216 2011-07-12 20:52:19 <b4epoche_> well, I'm just saying I'm not sure why you're surprised...
2217 2011-07-12 20:52:28 <gmaxwell> So thats about 530 GPUs worth of computing power assuming the timestamps are not lies.
2218 2011-07-12 20:52:49 <b4epoche_> oh, that difficulty isn't /that/ low?
2219 2011-07-12 20:52:49 <jrmithdobbs> whoa
2220 2011-07-12 20:52:57 slux has joined
2221 2011-07-12 20:52:58 <Marf> is it that easy to fake timestamps?
2222 2011-07-12 20:53:09 <jrmithdobbs> yes
2223 2011-07-12 20:53:17 <Marf> in bitcon too?
2224 2011-07-12 20:53:27 <b4epoche_> did someone pointing their pool at testnet?
2225 2011-07-12 20:53:31 <gmaxwell> well, you have to obey the rules. Can't be lower than the median of the last 11... can't be higher than two hours into the future.
2226 2011-07-12 20:54:30 <Marf> is there nowhere an log
2227 2011-07-12 20:54:48 <Marf> that writes down recived block x at time y
2228 2011-07-12 20:54:57 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2229 2011-07-12 20:55:09 <gmaxwell> and in this case, if they really were running slower, why (1) didn't someone solve a block in the interm (or perhaps they did and the attacker split the chain), (2) why didn't they just claim the minimum timestamp for each block?
2230 2011-07-12 20:55:27 <gmaxwell> Marf: the client logs it, but the default code doesn't have timestamps.
2231 2011-07-12 20:55:34 <gmaxwell> i run nodes with modified logging that logs times....
2232 2011-07-12 20:55:35 <jrmithdobbs> nobodies' really mining on testnet right now
2233 2011-07-12 20:55:37 <gmaxwell> but it doesn't run on testnet.
2234 2011-07-12 20:55:39 <jrmithdobbs> is part of it
2235 2011-07-12 20:55:45 <jrmithdobbs> which answers 1
2236 2011-07-12 20:56:09 bc has joined
2237 2011-07-12 20:56:13 <gmaxwell> yea.
2238 2011-07-12 20:56:36 <bc> hi
2239 2011-07-12 20:56:53 <bc> is there currently any easy way to plug in bitcoin acceptance for my website?
2240 2011-07-12 20:56:57 <gmaxwell> I'm only paying much attention because I'm currently attacking testnet, and I'm a little saddened that no miners are appear to be operating with the same dumb fee rules that mainnet has. :)
2241 2011-07-12 20:57:05 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2242 2011-07-12 20:57:20 <bc> do not serve alcohol to miners
2243 2011-07-12 20:59:03 repl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2244 2011-07-12 20:59:06 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2245 2011-07-12 20:59:09 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I'm going to guess that the spike was just some big solo miner performing a testâ I've recommended before that solo miners test against testnet to make sure their stuff is working.
2246 2011-07-12 20:59:30 <gmaxwell> still.. thats a lot of hashpower.
2247 2011-07-12 20:59:40 <prof7bit> there was one in the forum yesterday announcing he would test his new pool software for 100 blocks on the testnet and reward the miners with real coins out of his pocket for participating in the test.
2248 2011-07-12 20:59:56 <Zagitta> Okay, i'm getting confused here... the string that a miner sends to bitcoin/pool is 256 chars long, how on earth does that translate into the 80 byte block header?
2249 2011-07-12 21:00:00 <gmaxwell> ah, well, that might have been it.
2250 2011-07-12 21:00:33 <gmaxwell> bc: you might want to ask on the forums. The simplest thing to do is simply list an address, but I assume you want a proper shopping cart.
2251 2011-07-12 21:00:40 <gmaxwell> bc: the focus here is mostly on the bitcoin core software.
2252 2011-07-12 21:00:45 <bc> ah ok
2253 2011-07-12 21:00:51 <bc> sorry to interrupt then
2254 2011-07-12 21:01:03 <gmaxwell> bc: well, I wish I had an answer!
2255 2011-07-12 21:01:09 <bc> forum.bitcoin.org ?
2256 2011-07-12 21:02:53 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: iirc it converts it to hex or something like that?
2257 2011-07-12 21:02:57 <gmaxwell> bc: yes
2258 2011-07-12 21:03:14 mmoya has joined
2259 2011-07-12 21:03:43 <sipa> Zagitta: it is already padded to 128 bytes and then converted to hex
2260 2011-07-12 21:06:04 <Zagitta> aha thanks!
2261 2011-07-12 21:06:48 viggi_ is now known as viggi
2262 2011-07-12 21:07:15 <OneTimePad> is there a channel for people setting up pools?
2263 2011-07-12 21:07:53 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2264 2011-07-12 21:08:12 <Zagitta> sipa: I'm such a noob because i still have no clue about how to translate that into a meaningful data structure that i can use to verify a share haha
2265 2011-07-12 21:08:20 <BlueMatt> OneTimePad: do we really need more?
2266 2011-07-12 21:08:49 <OneTimePad> it was just mentioned up above that you said the focus here is mostly on the bitcoin core software. didn't want to bother anyone
2267 2011-07-12 21:09:16 <BlueMatt> na, Id say pools can be discussed here, dont think there is enough traffic to warrant another chan...
2268 2011-07-12 21:09:27 <BlueMatt> anything bitcoin-development-related belongs here imho
2269 2011-07-12 21:10:10 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2270 2011-07-12 21:10:21 <b4epoche_> #bitcoin-mining might be a helpful channel too
2271 2011-07-12 21:10:48 <sipa> things seem to be offtopic enough here
2272 2011-07-12 21:10:56 <sipa> i dont mind
2273 2011-07-12 21:10:56 <unclemantis> sigh just great. Mtgox doesn't allow Tor
2274 2011-07-12 21:11:18 <b4epoche_> w(hy)tf are you tor'ing into mtgox?
2275 2011-07-12 21:11:26 <unclemantis> I am not
2276 2011-07-12 21:11:34 <unclemantis> just read the thing about blocked IPs
2277 2011-07-12 21:11:46 <OneTimePad> Then I'm bringing this thread back up. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27970.0 the the second part of the answer. I am writing an addition to pushpool that puts the easy_target into the server.conf so it can be changed easily without recompiling, but I am worried about the second part of the question for how better_hash is determined
2278 2011-07-12 21:11:56 <BlueMatt> tor is very often used to brute passwords, and with a db leak they kinda have to block it
2279 2011-07-12 21:12:17 <unclemantis> now this is interesting https://yubikey.mtgox.com/
2280 2011-07-12 21:12:33 <b4epoche_> unclemantis: you been out-of-the-loop lately?
2281 2011-07-12 21:12:38 BlueMattBot has joined
2282 2011-07-12 21:12:39 <unclemantis> and it will cost me $30
2283 2011-07-12 21:12:44 <unclemantis> only a few weeks
2284 2011-07-12 21:13:24 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: and you think the things are free for mtgox, why would they be free?
2285 2011-07-12 21:13:49 <Marf> its free for me
2286 2011-07-12 21:13:50 <Marf> ;D
2287 2011-07-12 21:13:59 <unclemantis> of course it is Marf
2288 2011-07-12 21:13:59 <Marf> i was effected by hack
2289 2011-07-12 21:14:18 <prof7bit> 32+ block locator hashes char[32] block locator object. Newest back to genesis block (dense to start, but then sparse) <-- wtf is this? the explanation (and the paragraph below it) is cryptic like the oracle of delphi nebulous its meaning and purpose
2290 2011-07-12 21:14:21 <BlueMatt> if you got trades in between hack and shutdown, its free
2291 2011-07-12 21:14:23 <unclemantis> http://www.yubico.com/yubikey
2292 2011-07-12 21:14:29 <unclemantis> doing some research on this
2293 2011-07-12 21:14:30 <b4epoche_> affected by hack? i.e. you used a shitty password?
2294 2011-07-12 21:14:35 agricocb has joined
2295 2011-07-12 21:14:36 <Marf> no
2296 2011-07-12 21:14:38 <Marf> i traded
2297 2011-07-12 21:14:39 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: what BlueMatt said
2298 2011-07-12 21:14:48 ForceMajeure has quit ()
2299 2011-07-12 21:14:51 repl has joined
2300 2011-07-12 21:14:55 <gmaxwell> I did too.
2301 2011-07-12 21:15:05 <BlueMatt> I put in trades but they never executed :(
2302 2011-07-12 21:15:13 <BlueMatt> so no free key for me
2303 2011-07-12 21:15:27 <unclemantis> so what is the deal with this? Only one key per site?
2304 2011-07-12 21:15:43 <BlueMatt> doesnt have to be
2305 2011-07-12 21:15:50 <BlueMatt> but it is in mtgox's case
2306 2011-07-12 21:15:54 <unclemantis> can i use this for all my sites?
2307 2011-07-12 21:15:57 <BlueMatt> (rightfully imo)
2308 2011-07-12 21:16:17 <sipa> prof7bit: it is a list of block hashes, for heights n,n-1,n-2,...,n-10,n-12,n-16,n-24,n-40,n-72,...,0
2309 2011-07-12 21:16:18 <BlueMatt> if you get a generic one, yes (if they support yubi) but mtgox currently doesnt (possible in the future)
2310 2011-07-12 21:16:35 <BlueMatt> mtgox doesnt support your own key
2311 2011-07-12 21:16:42 <BlueMatt> but only their keys atm
2312 2011-07-12 21:16:47 <unclemantis> who supports this? facebook? google?
2313 2011-07-12 21:16:51 <sipa> it is used to find a common ancestor in the case of a reorg
2314 2011-07-12 21:16:58 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: nope, no one useful
2315 2011-07-12 21:17:17 <unclemantis> well then isn't that a crack in the ass
2316 2011-07-12 21:18:34 edGe has joined
2317 2011-07-12 21:18:42 edGe is now known as Guest85631
2318 2011-07-12 21:19:22 Guest85631 is now known as edGe06
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2321 2011-07-12 21:20:47 <prof7bit> how many such hashes are reasonable to send or do I have to go all the way back to the genesis block each time i generate such a message?
2322 2011-07-12 21:21:25 <edGe06> hey guys, i'm having a little trouble with setting up pushpool. I have all the dependencies installed, bitcoin running in server mode, just this last thing is stopping me from getting it setup.
2323 2011-07-12 21:21:29 <edGe06> im getting this error: [2011-07-12 21:11:50.006310] tcp bind: Address already in use
2324 2011-07-12 21:22:35 <unclemantis> does anyone here know much about signing up to an Automatic Teller Machine network as a Vendor and not a Merchant? As in, register as a PROVIDER of FUNDS?
2325 2011-07-12 21:23:28 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2326 2011-07-12 21:23:48 <sipa> prof7bit: 10 last ones, and then exponentially larger steps
2327 2011-07-12 21:24:47 <sipa> is what the default client does, but it does not assume this scheme for incoming mesages
2328 2011-07-12 21:24:56 <prof7bit> so each time i go all the way back and include this *huge* number of hashes each time i request the next 500? or can I simply use the latest one to request the next 500 from the same client
2329 2011-07-12 21:25:14 <sipa> it's not huge
2330 2011-07-12 21:25:25 <sipa> around 30 hashes
2331 2011-07-12 21:25:27 <OneTimePad> edGe06, are you using the default config? pastebin your ports at the top, make sure none of them are being used twice, and they are not overlapping your bitcoin ports
2332 2011-07-12 21:26:03 <edGe06> k sec
2333 2011-07-12 21:26:21 K0lky is now known as Kolky
2334 2011-07-12 21:26:27 <sipa> prof7bit: and you only do that once
2335 2011-07-12 21:26:37 <prof7bit> 30 only? why so few? the first ten are in steps of 1 this is 10 blocks, then 20, then 40
2336 2011-07-12 21:26:55 <prof7bit> 30 hashes would cover only 70 blocks
2337 2011-07-12 21:27:12 <edGe06> oh wait.. i think im using 8332 twice :O
2338 2011-07-12 21:27:13 <prof7bit> but there is written i have to go all the way back to the genesis lock
2339 2011-07-12 21:27:19 <edGe06> my bitcoind is running on 8332
2340 2011-07-12 21:27:29 <sipa> 10 with distance 1, then one with distance 2, one with 4, one with 8, one with 16
2341 2011-07-12 21:27:31 <prof7bit> this would be thousands of hashes
2342 2011-07-12 21:27:47 wardearia has quit (Changing host)
2343 2011-07-12 21:27:47 wardearia has joined
2344 2011-07-12 21:27:48 <sipa> with 30 you reach 104786 blocks
2345 2011-07-12 21:28:01 <sipa> 1048586
2346 2011-07-12 21:28:19 <OneTimePad> edGe06, that will do it. make sure you don't step over your listen port either
2347 2011-07-12 21:28:35 <prof7bit> ah, ok. i should really turn of my computer and sleep 10 hours now...
2348 2011-07-12 21:28:42 <unclemantis> how do i register as a financial institution on a interbank network protocol?
2349 2011-07-12 21:28:43 <sipa> hehe
2350 2011-07-12 21:28:46 <edGe06> OneTimePad can i pm you?
2351 2011-07-12 21:28:51 <OneTimePad> sure
2352 2011-07-12 21:29:56 <prof7bit> ok, i'm offline now. good night
2353 2011-07-12 21:30:08 prof7bit has quit (Quit: erection reset by beer)
2354 2011-07-12 21:30:22 <sipa> right
2355 2011-07-12 21:42:01 AndyBr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2362 2011-07-12 21:58:32 <Zagitta> Anyone that feel like helping with translating this c++ code to c#? http://pastebin.com/nVGNnu3H The problem is that everything i've tried to convert the 256 char long string block header from a miner into something meaningful have failed abysmally
2363 2011-07-12 22:00:15 <jgarzik> Zagitta: that's not C++ code
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2366 2011-07-12 22:01:37 Joric has quit ()
2367 2011-07-12 22:02:05 <Zagitta> ><
2368 2011-07-12 22:03:12 <Guest49741> jgarzik: it is c++ code
2369 2011-07-12 22:04:43 rethaw has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2370 2011-07-12 22:04:49 Stellar has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2371 2011-07-12 22:04:50 <Guest49741> Zagitta: what do you mean by 256 char long string block? I can't see that block in the code
2372 2011-07-12 22:06:18 <spq> Zagitta: why should len become 0 at the end, isnt that just the buffer size (first arg)?
2373 2011-07-12 22:06:34 <Zagitta> that code is not mine so don't ask me
2374 2011-07-12 22:06:37 <Zagitta> it's from pushpool
2375 2011-07-12 22:07:00 <nanotube> Zagitta: pushpool is written in c, not c++
2376 2011-07-12 22:07:06 <nanotube> hence, jgarzik is right :)
2377 2011-07-12 22:07:08 <Guest49741> Zagitta: the code does nothing than splitting the string in 2 character strings and covert these by a standard hex to int interpretation
2378 2011-07-12 22:07:19 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2379 2011-07-12 22:08:10 <spq> it translates from a hex code into a binary string - has absolutely nothing to do with block header or such
2380 2011-07-12 22:08:21 <Guest49741> nanotube: a C compiler would not compile this code, it makes use of bool and nested variable scopes
2381 2011-07-12 22:08:32 <Zagitta> yes it does spg
2382 2011-07-12 22:08:40 justmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2383 2011-07-12 22:09:05 <Zagitta> https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool/blob/master/msg.c check out check_hash
2384 2011-07-12 22:10:29 <nanotube> Guest49741: hrm heh ok
2385 2011-07-12 22:12:28 <Zagitta> Basically i'm trying to build my own pool software in c# however for the past couple of days i've been stuck on figuring out how to validate shares... After a lot of reading & searching i finally got the basics and now i'm trying to code it but the hex to binary in c# is messing around with my head
2386 2011-07-12 22:12:31 freewil has joined
2387 2011-07-12 22:13:18 gavinTAS has joined
2388 2011-07-12 22:13:46 <gavinTAS> Howdy y'all
2389 2011-07-12 22:14:16 repl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2390 2011-07-12 22:14:30 <BlueMatt> ???
2391 2011-07-12 22:14:46 <BlueMatt> that gavin or someone claiming to be gavin?
2392 2011-07-12 22:14:55 <gavinTAS> Does anybody know how Mt.Gox measures trade volume? E.g. on their market data page, what does 28,005 for volume mean? (NPR planet money folks want to know0
2393 2011-07-12 22:15:02 <gavinTAS> is me.
2394 2011-07-12 22:15:13 <gavinTAS> In tasmania.
2395 2011-07-12 22:15:29 <sipa> gavin: 24-hour window, iirxlc
2396 2011-07-12 22:15:31 <sipa> iirc
2397 2011-07-12 22:15:35 <gavinTAS> (I forgot to install Colloqy on my new laptop and setup all the gavinandresen identity stuff......)
2398 2011-07-12 22:16:00 <BlueMatt> I wanted to ask how far/how much work you are doing on the blockheaders stuff, Im starting work on another CWallet-style massive rebase that will effect all of that
2399 2011-07-12 22:16:46 <BlueMatt> well maybe not as big, but still will have wide-reaching patch breakages
2400 2011-07-12 22:17:01 <sipa> you mean chub?
2401 2011-07-12 22:17:06 <BlueMatt> yea
2402 2011-07-12 22:17:11 <sipa> :)
2403 2011-07-12 22:17:24 <BlueMatt> hoping to have the wallet-connection interface working tonight
2404 2011-07-12 22:17:38 <BlueMatt> after that, its a how-far-is-gavin should I continue or wait question
2405 2011-07-12 22:17:43 cdecker has joined
2406 2011-07-12 22:17:50 <phantomcircuit> gavinTAS, where do they say 28005?
2407 2011-07-12 22:17:59 karnac has joined
2408 2011-07-12 22:18:10 <gavinTAS> phantomcircuit: https://mtgox.com/trade/history
2409 2011-07-12 22:18:32 <gavinTAS> So how does bitcoincharts compute volume? Is that volume-since-midnight or something?
2410 2011-07-12 22:18:38 <sipa> gavinTAS: number of bitcoins traded the past 24 hour
2411 2011-07-12 22:18:40 <phantomcircuit> it looks like bitcoins in the last 24 hours
2412 2011-07-12 22:18:56 <phantomcircuit> bitcoincharts is volume past some time
2413 2011-07-12 22:18:56 shLONG has joined
2414 2011-07-12 22:19:02 <phantomcircuit> i forget which time it is though
2415 2011-07-12 22:19:08 <nanotube> afaik, bcharts breaks it up at midnight UTC
2416 2011-07-12 22:19:18 <gavinTAS> BlueMatt: I got sidetracked onto a test-harness when I started thinking about how to test headers-only-mode
2417 2011-07-12 22:19:19 <BlueMatt> thats a tcatm question
2418 2011-07-12 22:19:40 <gavinTAS> nanotube phantomcircuit : thanks!
2419 2011-07-12 22:19:45 <phantomcircuit> also britcoin isn't updating on bitcoincharts because someone put in a ridiculous trade
2420 2011-07-12 22:19:49 <phantomcircuit> which is pretty annoying
2421 2011-07-12 22:20:03 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: well its a question of do I continue on this or wait until youve gotten headers-only stuff up
2422 2011-07-12 22:20:13 eternal1 has joined
2423 2011-07-12 22:20:29 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: its a big rebase which makes a central interface where net/wallet/etc communicate to get notified of blocks/txes/etc and will verify/store in dbs/etc
2424 2011-07-12 22:20:53 <BlueMatt> which should cleanup pretty much all the global and fuzzy interface between net.* and main.*
2425 2011-07-12 22:21:09 justmoon has joined
2426 2011-07-12 22:21:14 <nanotube> sipa: i think bcharts has switchet to breaking it up at utc.
2427 2011-07-12 22:21:38 <gavinTAS> BlueMatt: Nice. Don't wait for me; headers-only won't be a ton of changes if I do it right.
2428 2011-07-12 22:21:46 <sipa> nanotube: i was talking about mtgox, actuallu
2429 2011-07-12 22:21:49 <nanotube> sipa: compare bcharts volume currently, with mtgox ticker volume (which is 23hrs)
2430 2011-07-12 22:21:53 <nanotube> er 24
2431 2011-07-12 22:21:58 <nanotube> ah ok :)
2432 2011-07-12 22:22:21 <nanotube> but gavinTAS's question was about bitcoincharts volume :)
2433 2011-07-12 22:22:24 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: ok, Ill try to make sure its a clean interface with support for headers-only...
2434 2011-07-12 22:22:48 <sipa> gavinTAS: when chub proves viable it will definitely make testing and headers-only easier
2435 2011-07-12 22:23:01 eoss has joined
2436 2011-07-12 22:23:03 <gavinTAS> what is chub
2437 2011-07-12 22:23:37 <sipa> essentially allowing you to swap out walkets or node databases in a test environnement
2438 2011-07-12 22:24:00 <sipa> what BlueMatt us talking about, CHub
2439 2011-07-12 22:25:01 <gavinTAS> Oh, C-hub... okey doke. I was going to do the easiest possible thing, which is take ArtForz's half-a-node and teach it to send chains/etc to bitcoinds started from a known state.
2440 2011-07-12 22:26:01 <sipa> that's probably the best full-feature test you can do right now
2441 2011-07-12 22:26:31 <gavinTAS> ... and it'll be great for testing alternative implementations, too, which is going to be very important very soon
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2447 2011-07-12 22:26:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: it'd be great if you can implement it, i don't have the time for it mow
2448 2011-07-12 22:27:28 <BlueMatt> implement what, CHub?
2449 2011-07-12 22:27:37 <sipa> yes
2450 2011-07-12 22:27:39 <WakiMiko_> chub?
2451 2011-07-12 22:28:17 <WakiMiko_> whats the hub gonna do?
2452 2011-07-12 22:28:17 Joric has joined
2453 2011-07-12 22:28:27 <BlueMatt> well Im working on making a solid front-end right now, Im just hacking together a workable (but slightly inefficient in some ways) backend and will rewrite eg the thread which handles object distribution later
2454 2011-07-12 22:28:47 <BlueMatt> I want to get wallet using it stably then Ill have to rewrite a ton of main and net to get those to mesh
2455 2011-07-12 22:28:55 <BlueMatt> but yea, Ill be working on it off and on
2456 2011-07-12 22:29:20 <sipa> for now you can do everything synchronous i think
2457 2011-07-12 22:29:36 <BlueMatt> I could...
2458 2011-07-12 22:29:39 <WakiMiko_> nvm i should read first
2459 2011-07-12 22:30:27 <sipa> if the interface is clean enough, it should't be too hard to change that afterwards
2460 2011-07-12 22:30:31 <BlueMatt> yep
2461 2011-07-12 22:30:38 <Joric> are you planning to add decryption? it's getting funny :) i've just fetched showwallet branch there is a command 'encryptwallet' but no decryption
2462 2011-07-12 22:31:09 <nanotube> Joric: if there's no decryption, than means the bad guys can't decrypt it!
2463 2011-07-12 22:31:11 <nanotube> makes sense! hehe
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2465 2011-07-12 22:31:38 <BlueMatt> Joric: read up on pull 352
2466 2011-07-12 22:31:41 <sipa> but indeed, the hardest part is turning main, net and rpc into objects i think
2467 2011-07-12 22:31:49 <BlueMatt> yea, absolutely
2468 2011-07-12 22:32:36 <sipa> and even further, splitting main up in blockdb, block verify, tx pool and miner
2469 2011-07-12 22:32:50 <BlueMatt> well I wont bother with that yet...
2470 2011-07-12 22:32:57 <BlueMatt> though that is already somewhat split ok
2471 2011-07-12 22:33:05 <sipa> indeed
2472 2011-07-12 22:33:13 <BlueMatt> I plan on making it work first, then rebase into more classes
2473 2011-07-12 22:33:21 <Joric> #352 "An option to decrypt the wallet? (Decided against this one as noone seemed to care if it got implemented" hehe
2474 2011-07-12 22:33:24 <sipa> that's for later
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2476 2011-07-12 22:33:52 <BlueMatt> Joric: well I will add it, but later, when I asked around no one responded, so I decided to do it later
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2490 2011-07-12 22:49:49 <gmaxwell> meh. I don't see the point in decryption.
2491 2011-07-12 22:49:57 <gmaxwell> Just more code to test.
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2494 2011-07-12 22:50:41 <Joric> would empty passphrase do the trick?
2495 2011-07-12 22:50:53 <BlueMatt> you have to have atleast 1 char
2496 2011-07-12 22:50:56 <BlueMatt> or dont encrypt
2497 2011-07-12 22:50:59 <BlueMatt> encryption is optional
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2499 2011-07-12 22:51:18 <Joric> apparently most of code is written already it's more gui
2500 2011-07-12 22:51:42 <Joric> i hate coding so much - the whole iphone story was a disaster, 3 years barely earned a living + constant deadlines
2501 2011-07-12 22:52:12 carldedom has joined
2502 2011-07-12 22:52:24 <Joric> it's all well and good if you do make money but turns into a living nightmare if you don't
2503 2011-07-12 22:52:26 <BlueMatt> what code is written?
2504 2011-07-12 22:53:03 <Joric> decryption?
2505 2011-07-12 22:53:10 <BlueMatt> no that code is not written
2506 2011-07-12 22:53:35 <carldedom> anyone wonna buy 20btc 14 ppusd each
2507 2011-07-12 22:53:45 <BlueMatt> carldedom: #bitcoin-otc not here
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2509 2011-07-12 22:54:37 <sipa> gavinTAS: btw, what is your opinion about the safe corruption of the wallet matt proposed, instead of renaming wallet.dat?
2510 2011-07-12 22:55:00 <BlueMatt> oh yea, can we get a merge, just need your and tcatm's ack
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2523 2011-07-12 23:06:54 <edGe06> Joric you were an iphone dev?
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2525 2011-07-12 23:07:18 <OneTimePad> how long before we merge import private key?
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2528 2011-07-12 23:08:28 <BlueMatt> not too long
2529 2011-07-12 23:08:43 <BlueMatt> wallet crypto goes first (hopefully next couple days) then import/export right afterwards
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2532 2011-07-12 23:10:04 <Joric> edGe06, yeah, wrote 12 games or so
2533 2011-07-12 23:10:17 <gavinTAS> sipa: re: safe wallet corruption: seems like the best we can do. Backwards compatibility is always a pain in the ass
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2535 2011-07-12 23:10:58 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: have you had time to review the rest of the pull, or is that on hold for (reason why you are in australia?)
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2542 2011-07-12 23:12:46 <gavinTAS> BlueMatt: I haven't had time to review-- I'll make time today. It is all ready to pull?
2543 2011-07-12 23:13:35 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: yep, Ive got ack from sipa, so Im gonna try to push jgarzik and tcatm and you to ack when you'll get around ot it
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2548 2011-07-12 23:17:00 <edGe06> Joric: my buddy just got a job making apps for a company... i have a feeling the "fun" is going to wear off
2549 2011-07-12 23:17:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: tcatm ^
2550 2011-07-12 23:19:44 <nanotube> BlueMatt: so is gavinTAS actually "the gavin" ? :)
2551 2011-07-12 23:20:10 <BlueMatt> nanotube: I think so, but his ack will come from his github account so...
2552 2011-07-12 23:21:02 <nanotube> hrm well... ok... but i'd rather hope for a gpg signature :)
2553 2011-07-12 23:21:19 <nanotube> though i guess since github account controls the repo anyway.. hehe
2554 2011-07-12 23:21:23 <Ramen> sooo is he a g+ so we can all circle him?
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2559 2011-07-12 23:26:17 <CIA-103> Bitcoin: Matt Corallo TheBlueMatt-bitcoin * rc31c1fa / (src/db.cpp src/main.cpp src/main.h src/wallet.cpp): Make an invalid addrIncoming so that old clients crash. ... https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/c31c1fa00398439c84d55284cbefa35e21a38b59
2560 2011-07-12 23:26:24 <BlueMatt> why the fuck is that there?
2561 2011-07-12 23:27:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: have you seen http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=28343.0
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2566 2011-07-12 23:35:05 <WakiMiko_> i really enjoyed that "dont start from scratch" blog entry that was posted in the mailing list
2567 2011-07-12 23:35:10 <WakiMiko_> made me smile a couple of times
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2570 2011-07-12 23:37:57 <nanotube> WakiMiko_: joel on software?
2571 2011-07-12 23:38:03 <WakiMiko_> yeah
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2574 2011-07-12 23:38:43 <gavinTAS> BlueMatt: CMasterKey supports scrypt? (looking at line 18 of crypter.h)
2575 2011-07-12 23:38:50 <nanotube> WakiMiko_: yep, an oldie but goodie. when someone suggested to "rewrite the client from scratch", that's what i immediately thought of
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2577 2011-07-12 23:38:58 <nanotube> WakiMiko_: so was pleased someone else did as well :)
2578 2011-07-12 23:39:02 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: no, but it has it in the types so that when people do implement scrypt, its easy
2579 2011-07-12 23:39:16 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: because I know of several people who will implement it as soon as newenc is merged
2580 2011-07-12 23:40:42 <gavinTAS> Adding back the comment about scrypt when scrypt is implemented would be better... (I don't like "this code is here for when we get around to doing X in the future...")
2581 2011-07-12 23:41:35 <BlueMatt> well I felt like making sure people who use scrypt use the same number instead of each implementation pulling a random number out of their ass...but whatever, its just a comment it can be removed
2582 2011-07-12 23:41:53 <BlueMatt> and IMHO scrypt shouldnt be included in bitcoin mainline for a long, long time
2583 2011-07-12 23:42:27 <gavinTAS> Where is the encryption scheme described?
2584 2011-07-12 23:42:51 <BlueMatt> the commit msg I think is it, though README might have it as well, I dont remember if I put it in there
2585 2011-07-12 23:45:44 <gavinTAS> So the first thing I'm going to want to do is add key decryption to bitcointools... it'd be really nice if crypter.h had a big comment at the top describing how to go from an encrypted value in the database to a decrypted private key
2586 2011-07-12 23:46:58 <BlueMatt> I can do that...
2587 2011-07-12 23:47:59 <BlueMatt> actually, key encryption is really quite variable...
2588 2011-07-12 23:48:58 <gavinTAS> ... you mean it's not easy to write down how it's actually done?
2589 2011-07-12 23:49:32 <BlueMatt> no, I can write it, I was just surprised that what I had written in the commitmsg was so short on specific cryption details
2590 2011-07-12 23:50:04 <BlueMatt> well actually...
2591 2011-07-12 23:55:40 <BlueMatt> gavinTAS: theres the overview, dont think there are more details to add
2592 2011-07-12 23:55:53 <BlueMatt> (in crypter.h)
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2594 2011-07-12 23:57:59 liltoe has quit (Quit: wee wee wee)
2595 2011-07-12 23:58:28 * jgarzik is amused at liltoe
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2597 2011-07-12 23:58:43 * jgarzik reads scrollback