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  37 2011-07-14 00:50:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt here?
  38 2011-07-14 00:50:23 <Zagitta> does anyone happen to have a snip of a dumb from pushpool db? i'd like to see what each field contains because  out_result, upstream_result and reason aren't exatly very descriptive row names
  39 2011-07-14 00:50:34 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea
  40 2011-07-14 00:50:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm having some trouble with a locked wallet...
  41 2011-07-14 00:51:01 <BlueMatt> ok...
  42 2011-07-14 00:51:13 <BlueMatt> first of all, does it have coins and do you have a backup?
  43 2011-07-14 00:51:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I ran a testnet node with a locked wallet, and I think it used up all the keypool keys generating blocks.  Then crashed.
  44 2011-07-14 00:51:44 <BlueMatt> crashed???...one sec...
  45 2011-07-14 00:52:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I restart and try to unlock the wallet (using RPC walletpassphrase command)... and it seems to crash again.
  46 2011-07-14 00:52:15 <BlueMatt> what does bitcointools show?
  47 2011-07-14 00:53:57 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'll check.  Here's pastebin for what I'm seeing:  http://pastebin.com/uREmZxzf
  48 2011-07-14 00:54:52 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  49 2011-07-14 00:55:37 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: hmm, bitcointools says there are plenty of change pool keys in the wallet...
  50 2011-07-14 00:56:13 Astrohacker has joined
  51 2011-07-14 00:56:28 <BlueMatt> that makes no sense...the only place GenerateNewKey is called is TopUpKeyPool which will return false if (IsLocked)
  52 2011-07-14 00:57:31 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  53 2011-07-14 00:57:42 <gavinandresen> hang on, maybe i wasn't fully merged with tip...
  54 2011-07-14 00:57:52 <BlueMatt> no, still shouldnt be
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  58 2011-07-14 01:01:40 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: seems to be behaving after pull and recompile -- sorry for the false alarm
  59 2011-07-14 01:01:50 <BlueMatt> hmmm...
  60 2011-07-14 01:01:58 <BlueMatt> doesnt make sense, but ok...
  61 2011-07-14 01:02:09 markio has joined
  62 2011-07-14 01:02:24 <BlueMatt> oh...wait, where did my return go?
  63 2011-07-14 01:03:25 <BlueMatt> well you might have found a bug nonetheless...
  64 2011-07-14 01:04:57 <gavinandresen> Good!
  65 2011-07-14 01:05:30 <BlueMatt> wait and its not happening now?
  66 2011-07-14 01:05:30 NickelBot has joined
  67 2011-07-14 01:05:35 <BlueMatt> it absolutely should...
  68 2011-07-14 01:05:38 brunner has joined
  69 2011-07-14 01:05:49 <BlueMatt> have you mined it to the end of the pool?
  70 2011-07-14 01:06:29 <BlueMatt> and here I was thinking I had looked for all this crap...
  71 2011-07-14 01:06:35 <MrSam> bleh
  72 2011-07-14 01:06:38 <MrSam> botnet attack
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  74 2011-07-14 01:08:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I don't understand 'mined it to the end of the pool' -- these are testnet-on-my-local-machine nodes, creating my very own personal block chain.
  75 2011-07-14 01:09:38 <BlueMatt> no I mean generated enough blocks to run out of addresses in pool
  76 2011-07-14 01:10:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: Ah, got it.  No, only generated 33 blocks...
  77 2011-07-14 01:10:32 <BlueMatt> well unless Im missing something it should crash again after that...
  78 2011-07-14 01:11:21 <gavinandresen> ... if the wallet is locked?
  79 2011-07-14 01:11:32 <BlueMatt> yea
  80 2011-07-14 01:11:37 <BlueMatt> otherwise it will refill as expected
  81 2011-07-14 01:13:20 nuth has left ()
  82 2011-07-14 01:13:37 <MrSam> does anyone knows how big a route table can get on a vanilla kernel ?
  83 2011-07-14 01:13:56 <MrSam> 50,60k shouldn't be a problem right ?
  84 2011-07-14 01:15:09 <MrSam> i'm running
  85 2011-07-14 01:15:10 <MrSam> while true
  86 2011-07-14 01:15:10 <MrSam> do
  87 2011-07-14 01:15:10 <MrSam> logtail nginx.access.log |grep **** | awk '{print "route add " $1 " reject "}' > block.sh ; sh block.sh ; route -n | wc -l
  88 2011-07-14 01:15:14 <MrSam> sleep 1s
  89 2011-07-14 01:15:16 <MrSam> done
  90 2011-07-14 01:15:19 <MrSam> and i want to go to bed
  91 2011-07-14 01:15:22 <MrSam> but it's allready 22300 records
  92 2011-07-14 01:15:51 <MrSam> 22400 :)
  93 2011-07-14 01:15:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/409 sorry, I know for sure I had traced that function and it worked fine...
  94 2011-07-14 01:16:20 <BlueMatt> MrSam: dont do that using routes, do that using iptables or a firewall
  95 2011-07-14 01:16:24 <MrSam> nah
  96 2011-07-14 01:16:31 <BlueMatt> no, seriously, use a firewall
  97 2011-07-14 01:16:31 <MrSam> iptables stopped working after 15k drops
  98 2011-07-14 01:16:35 zeropointo has joined
  99 2011-07-14 01:16:54 <MrSam> 0routing seemed like a good idea
 100 2011-07-14 01:17:11 <BlueMatt> no, iptables means less load null-routing means your server still gets the syn
 101 2011-07-14 01:17:32 <BlueMatt> and will try (repeatedly) to send a syn ack
 102 2011-07-14 01:17:33 <MrSam> hmm
 103 2011-07-14 01:17:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: don't feel too bad, I found a bug in python yesterday.
 104 2011-07-14 01:18:05 <MrSam> BlueMatt: well i started off with iptables
 105 2011-07-14 01:18:23 <MrSam> but as i said, after 15k different reject/drop's it stopped working
 106 2011-07-14 01:18:30 <MrSam> and it's slow as hell
 107 2011-07-14 01:18:31 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im just mad that I missed that one...I know I had a //TODO there and I guess I removed it without thinking (thats how I code, work high level and when I dont fee like doing something just //TODO it, terrible I know)
 108 2011-07-14 01:18:59 <MrSam> and no way your server can send a syn ack to a nullrouted ip
 109 2011-07-14 01:19:01 <b4epoche_> not a bad way to work...
 110 2011-07-14 01:19:12 <BlueMatt> MrSam: it wont go through, but it will try to send it
 111 2011-07-14 01:19:17 <BlueMatt> MrSam: thats why it will retry
 112 2011-07-14 01:19:24 <BlueMatt> because it wont go through
 113 2011-07-14 01:19:26 ^1bitc0inplz has joined
 114 2011-07-14 01:19:34 <BlueMatt> nullrouting is not a firewall
 115 2011-07-14 01:20:21 <MrSam> so :)
 116 2011-07-14 01:20:24 <MrSam> solution ?
 117 2011-07-14 01:20:32 <BlueMatt> MrSam: try optimizing your iptables ruleset
 118 2011-07-14 01:20:51 <MrSam> well, there is not much to optimize
 119 2011-07-14 01:20:51 <BlueMatt> MrSam: http://lists.debian.org/debian-firewall/2004/10/msg00086.html
 120 2011-07-14 01:20:58 <MrSam> all ip's are from another class
 121 2011-07-14 01:21:01 <BlueMatt> thats after one quick google, like the first result
 122 2011-07-14 01:21:06 <MrSam> hmm
 123 2011-07-14 01:21:14 <MrSam> yeah, wont work
 124 2011-07-14 01:21:17 Kolky has quit (Quit: Bye bye!)
 125 2011-07-14 01:21:20 <BlueMatt> why not?
 126 2011-07-14 01:21:37 <MrSam> and
 127 2011-07-14 01:21:39 <MrSam> as said
 128 2011-07-14 01:21:41 <MrSam> 'that takes nearly half an hour to be inserted '
 129 2011-07-14 01:21:51 <MrSam> i'm getting an additional 100 ip's every 20 seconds or so
 130 2011-07-14 01:21:55 <BlueMatt> only if you do it inefficiently
 131 2011-07-14 01:21:56 Beccara_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 132 2011-07-14 01:21:56 <MrSam> inserting that all the time is a nogo
 133 2011-07-14 01:22:07 <BlueMatt> can you explain the situation a bit more to begin with?
 134 2011-07-14 01:22:19 <MrSam> botnet flooding my pushpools
 135 2011-07-14 01:22:35 <BlueMatt> so you are blocking everything that sends anything to your ip?
 136 2011-07-14 01:22:36 <denisx> flooding with what?
 137 2011-07-14 01:22:40 <MrSam> 20000 concurrent connections for a combined hashrate of 2Ghs
 138 2011-07-14 01:22:43 <MrSam> no
 139 2011-07-14 01:22:54 <MrSam> i grep on a specific thing in the accesslog of my nginx
 140 2011-07-14 01:23:02 <BlueMatt> that thing is...?
 141 2011-07-14 01:23:18 <MrSam> http user agent string
 142 2011-07-14 01:23:41 <MrSam> so let's hope he is not here ;)
 143 2011-07-14 01:23:43 <denisx> MrSam: what is your pool?
 144 2011-07-14 01:23:56 <MrSam> denisx: deepbit
 145 2011-07-14 01:23:58 <MrSam> not really
 146 2011-07-14 01:24:12 <BlueMatt> how many ips are you looking at blocking?
 147 2011-07-14 01:24:19 <MrSam> 22585
 148 2011-07-14 01:24:25 <MrSam> 22590
 149 2011-07-14 01:24:30 <BlueMatt> that should be no problem at all for iptables
 150 2011-07-14 01:24:32 <MrSam> 22594
 151 2011-07-14 01:24:43 <BlueMatt> either your hardware sucks, or you are doing something wrong
 152 2011-07-14 01:24:59 garyDemilo has joined
 153 2011-07-14 01:25:15 <MrSam> 22700
 154 2011-07-14 01:25:25 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r0d7b28e / src/wallet.cpp : Fix crashes when a wallet is locked and GetReservedKey() is called - http://bit.ly/qZOwJI https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/0d7b28e52ea5302ce6aa17399a0027e33168c372
 155 2011-07-14 01:25:25 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r60d2f86 / src/wallet.cpp : Merge pull request #409 from TheBlueMatt/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/60d2f8662c48d3456e41b8e2b118c20e2ea43ace
 156 2011-07-14 01:25:26 <BlueMatt> iptables was slow how?
 157 2011-07-14 01:25:33 <MrSam> adding the rules
 158 2011-07-14 01:25:38 <BlueMatt> oh, bah just do it
 159 2011-07-14 01:25:43 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: any other immediate fixes that need merging?
 160 2011-07-14 01:25:44 <MrSam> you don't get it
 161 2011-07-14 01:25:47 <MrSam> they keep coming
 162 2011-07-14 01:25:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: not afaik
 163 2011-07-14 01:25:52 <MrSam> faster then i can insert
 164 2011-07-14 01:25:56 <BlueMatt> MrSam: thread it
 165 2011-07-14 01:25:59 <MrSam> but not faster then i can 0route
 166 2011-07-14 01:26:09 <BlueMatt> nullrouting is not a solution
 167 2011-07-14 01:26:23 dvide has quit ()
 168 2011-07-14 01:26:26 <BlueMatt> to deal with a ddos, you could try a better fw, there are good ddos-prevention fws out there
 169 2011-07-14 01:26:27 markio has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 170 2011-07-14 01:26:40 <MrSam> maybe i could do it the other way around
 171 2011-07-14 01:26:49 <MrSam> check ip's of valid users and drop the rest
 172 2011-07-14 01:27:01 <BlueMatt> that seems like a terrible idea
 173 2011-07-14 01:27:05 <MrSam> i know
 174 2011-07-14 01:27:23 <MrSam> but adding iptables at a rate of 100 every minute as well
 175 2011-07-14 01:27:32 <jgarzik> what was the russia isp, involved in botnets?  Some other pool op null-routed all of (yannix?) IP addresses, and the DDoS really dropped down
 176 2011-07-14 01:27:55 <MrSam> it's russian allright
 177 2011-07-14 01:28:01 <BlueMatt> well if you have a subnet, you could null-route or iptables drop huge chunks at a time
 178 2011-07-14 01:28:23 <MrSam> maybe i should try to see if i can clean up my previous routes
 179 2011-07-14 01:28:37 <MrSam> and detect bigger classes
 180 2011-07-14 01:28:47 <MrSam> all of that at 3.30 in the morning
 181 2011-07-14 01:28:53 <jgarzik> MrSam: go up to the AS level
 182 2011-07-14 01:28:59 <jgarzik> MrSam: that will bring it down quickly
 183 2011-07-14 01:28:59 glassresistor has joined
 184 2011-07-14 01:29:06 <MrSam> jgarzik: nah , all different ip's
 185 2011-07-14 01:29:16 <MrSam> infected pc's or something
 186 2011-07-14 01:29:42 <gavinandresen> jgarzik BlueMatt: I just added a comment to that pull... (I think a debug.log message is needed)
 187 2011-07-14 01:29:43 <BlueMatt> probably, so look by as
 188 2011-07-14 01:29:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: which pull?
 189 2011-07-14 01:30:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: 409
 190 2011-07-14 01:30:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik kinda already pulled it...
 191 2011-07-14 01:30:19 <BlueMatt> but yea, Ill go add it
 192 2011-07-14 01:30:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: a pull does not preclude further improvements :)
 193 2011-07-14 01:30:56 <MrSam> http://root.oinks.be/list
 194 2011-07-14 01:31:00 <MrSam> this is what i have so far
 195 2011-07-14 01:31:37 <MrSam> maybe sort it and block large chuncks of c classes
 196 2011-07-14 01:32:00 <MrSam> thank you god that they are not using ipv6 yet
 197 2011-07-14 01:32:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: gavinandresen https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/410
 198 2011-07-14 01:32:58 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * rcee6998 / src/wallet.cpp : Generate Warning when using default key. - http://bit.ly/pdMrhP https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/cee69980b0ebe05b8327bf1d6cafb12a8f7f718c
 199 2011-07-14 01:32:59 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r3fd18fa / src/wallet.cpp : Merge pull request #410 from TheBlueMatt/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3fd18faaf643adf870501b9d4a53170f72bdee06
 200 2011-07-14 01:34:11 <gavinandresen> wallet.cpp:1328: error: ‘vchDefaultKey’ was not declared in this scope
 201 2011-07-14 01:34:15 Marf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 202 2011-07-14 01:34:16 <BlueMatt> wtf
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 206 2011-07-14 01:35:49 <BlueMatt> damn, its a wallet thing...try number 3: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/411
 207 2011-07-14 01:36:01 <MrSam> BlueMatt: Null routing has an advantage over classical firewalls since it is available on every potential network router (including all modern operating systems), and adds virtually no performance impact. Due to the nature of high-bandwidth routers, null routing can often sustain higher throughput than conventional firewalls. For this reason, null routes are often used on high-performance core routers to mitigate large-scale denial-of-service attacks before t
 208 2011-07-14 01:36:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: your commit message could stand to be improved
 209 2011-07-14 01:36:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: did you compile?
 210 2011-07-14 01:36:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, this time I did...
 211 2011-07-14 01:36:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: at a minimum "src/wallet.cpp: fix build in CReserveKey" or somesuch
 212 2011-07-14 01:36:32 <BlueMatt> MrSam: then iptables sucks, which I kind of doubt
 213 2011-07-14 01:36:57 <BlueMatt> MrSam: that applies to ridiculous 10Gbps routers, not a pool
 214 2011-07-14 01:37:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: fixed
 215 2011-07-14 01:38:50 <denisx> I know a guy who operates big filters for gambling sites. your public address moves to london then and they filter all the crap out and send the rest to your site (which mostly sits on malta)
 216 2011-07-14 01:39:24 <BlueMatt> that seems..inefficient
 217 2011-07-14 01:40:00 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * ra2606ba / src/wallet.cpp : Fix Build in GetReservedKey() in wallet.cpp - http://bit.ly/ncgSdT https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a2606bad095396e836a48f4097e0abcdea314340
 218 2011-07-14 01:40:01 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r36cd1ad / src/wallet.cpp : Merge pull request #411 from TheBlueMatt/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/36cd1ad5c90957608f711f79c7c2d8ef8a05c252
 219 2011-07-14 01:40:05 <denisx> BlueMatt: it isnt, they have so big pipes in london that you can't DDoS them
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 222 2011-07-14 01:41:01 <BlueMatt> oh they are just a ddos proxy
 223 2011-07-14 01:41:05 <BlueMatt> yea, ok
 224 2011-07-14 01:41:21 <MrSam> denisx: do you want to be my ddos proxy ? :)
 225 2011-07-14 01:41:33 <MrSam> instead of 0routing i guess i could forward it
 226 2011-07-14 01:41:47 BlueMattBot has joined
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 228 2011-07-14 01:42:39 <denisx> MrSam: Iam not that guy ;)
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 236 2011-07-14 01:51:24 <BlueMatt> ok, Im off, forward all you-broke-it messages to email or gribble
 237 2011-07-14 01:52:30 rynx has joined
 238 2011-07-14 01:53:02 <MrSam> :)
 239 2011-07-14 01:53:07 <MrSam> i'm off aswell
 240 2011-07-14 01:53:18 <MrSam> BlueMatt: i did it another way
 241 2011-07-14 01:53:30 <MrSam> seems that nginx supports looking for user agent
 242 2011-07-14 01:53:40 <MrSam> so i'm dropping it there, and he can handle it fine
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 245 2011-07-14 01:55:27 <gim> BlueMatt: pull/388 has been resurrected as pull/412 :)
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 249 2011-07-14 02:01:31 <Guest72992> Project Bitcoin-Test build #6: STILL FAILING in 8.9 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Test/6/
 250 2011-07-14 02:01:32 <Guest72992> * matt: Fix crashes when a wallet is locked and GetReservedKey() is called
 251 2011-07-14 02:01:32 <Guest72992> * matt: Generate Warning when using default key.
 252 2011-07-14 02:01:33 <Guest72992> * matt: Fix Build in GetReservedKey() in wallet.cpp
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 269 2011-07-14 02:10:31 <Kiba> hello folks
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 286 2011-07-14 02:55:18 <Zagitta> Why is it that the H value of the blockheader hash must be 0?
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 288 2011-07-14 02:57:45 <luke-jr> Zagitta: because all valid difficulties start with the first 32 bits of the hash being 0
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 291 2011-07-14 02:59:00 <Zagitta> luke-jr: thanks
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 303 2011-07-14 03:20:46 <Zagitta> grr, i still don't get the custom packing used to store the difficulty
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 312 2011-07-14 03:36:27 <forrestv> Zagitta, what about it? i can help
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 315 2011-07-14 03:37:45 <Zagitta> forresttv: wait hang on a sec, i got an idea
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 318 2011-07-14 03:46:45 <Zagitta> forrestv: sanity check... We agree that this hashed header: 8F5325EA73E0D5EB0648593E2615A6F96AC1C224079465A7ECD15935C46A6485 is above difficulty of 1? aka: ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000
 319 2011-07-14 03:48:06 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 320 2011-07-14 03:49:03 <forrestv> Zagitta, difficulty 1 is 0xffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 321 2011-07-14 03:49:38 <forrestv> but it's higher anyway
 322 2011-07-14 03:50:07 <Zagitta> okay well i'm just trying to see if i can avoid touching nBits
 323 2011-07-14 03:50:35 <forrestv> wait
 324 2011-07-14 03:50:38 <forrestv> what do you mean 'higher'
 325 2011-07-14 03:50:53 <forrestv> do you mean that it qualifies as a block?
 326 2011-07-14 03:50:58 <Zagitta> yes
 327 2011-07-14 03:51:07 <forrestv> because it doesn't. its hash is higher than the target
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 330 2011-07-14 03:51:51 <Zagitta> okay good then it's starting to make more sense
 331 2011-07-14 03:52:43 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 332 2011-07-14 03:53:30 <Zagitta> i should really learn to convert hex to decimal mentally some day
 333 2011-07-14 03:54:21 yorick has joined
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 335 2011-07-14 03:55:26 <Zagitta> forrestv: thanks, now i should be able to avoid submitting any shares to bitcoind unless they actually are blocks
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 339 2011-07-14 03:58:14 <lfm> difficulty 1.0 is 00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 340 2011-07-14 03:58:25 <lfm> nBits = 0x1d00ffff
 341 2011-07-14 03:59:37 <nanotube> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty#How_is_difficulty_stored_in_blocks?
 342 2011-07-14 04:01:08 <lfm> I think that compact form was part of the bignum lib, right?
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 347 2011-07-14 04:03:58 <Zagitta> @nanotube: that example is absolutly useless
 348 2011-07-14 04:05:58 <Zagitta> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc.cpp#L214 is better
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 352 2011-07-14 04:13:30 <marvin__> ;;bc,stats
 353 2011-07-14 04:13:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136187 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 900 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 19 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1661834.82925870
 354 2011-07-14 04:13:48 <Joric> reference secp256k1 implementation, removed ctypes dependency https://github.com/joric/pywallet
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 361 2011-07-14 04:27:35 <luke-jr> note that difficulty has 2 definitions now :p
 362 2011-07-14 04:35:21 <lfm> you mean the main net difficulty and the share difficulty?
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 372 2011-07-14 04:51:14 <denisx> the new poclbm stats do not reflect a different target ;(
 373 2011-07-14 04:52:16 <denisx> is the programmer sometimes in this channel?
 374 2011-07-14 04:52:36 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 375 2011-07-14 04:53:08 <lfm> ya I think so
 376 2011-07-14 04:53:29 <luke-jr> denisx: they should
 377 2011-07-14 04:53:46 <luke-jr> I personally saw the code to handle it
 378 2011-07-14 04:54:26 <denisx> rr.btcmp.com:7332 [411.277 MH/s (~222 MH/s)] [Rej: 0/42 (0%)]
 379 2011-07-14 04:54:33 <denisx> then I must have a really bad day
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 382 2011-07-14 04:55:10 <lfm> rejected 0 of 42, that seems ok
 383 2011-07-14 04:55:35 <luke-jr> denisx: it might not work if the pool changes target
 384 2011-07-14 04:55:44 <luke-jr> but if it's consistent, it should
 385 2011-07-14 04:55:52 <denisx> luke-jr: no, I did not change it on the fly
 386 2011-07-14 04:56:19 <denisx> but that would maybe the next step ;)
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 392 2011-07-14 04:58:31 <lfm> why is it two different mh/s?
 393 2011-07-14 04:59:01 <denisx> lfm: because the second value is computed by the number of accepted shares
 394 2011-07-14 04:59:36 <lfm> ok that could be random variation
 395 2011-07-14 04:59:40 <denisx> and it does not reflect that with diff-2 it is worth two shares or 2**33 hashes
 396 2011-07-14 05:00:08 <lfm> oh diff 2.0? that looks pretty normal then
 397 2011-07-14 05:01:00 <lfm> what were you expecting to say it was a bad day?
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 399 2011-07-14 05:01:22 <denisx> lfm: if that would be normal I would have a bad day
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 401 2011-07-14 05:01:36 <denisx> but I think poclbm can't handle it
 402 2011-07-14 05:02:33 <lfm> it seems you got more than expected
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 404 2011-07-14 05:03:21 <denisx> lfm: no, the first value is what my GPU makes, the second is computed from the accepted shares
 405 2011-07-14 05:03:51 <lfm> so with diff  2.0 you earned as if you had 444 mh/s
 406 2011-07-14 05:05:03 <lfm> ;;bc,gend 411.277 2
 407 2011-07-14 05:05:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 411.277 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 2, is 206.837039441 BTC per day and 8.6182099767 BTC per hour.
 408 2011-07-14 05:07:05 <lfm> ;;bc,gen 411.277
 409 2011-07-14 05:07:07 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 411.277 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 0.000264661976567 BTC per day and 1.1027582357e-05 BTC per hour.
 410 2011-07-14 05:07:26 <lfm> ;;bc,gen 411277
 411 2011-07-14 05:07:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 411277 Khps, given current difficulty of 1563027.9961162 , is 0.264661976567 BTC per day and 0.011027582357 BTC per hour.
 412 2011-07-14 05:07:34 <lfm> ;;bc,gend 411277 2
 413 2011-07-14 05:07:35 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 411277 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 2, is 206837.039441 BTC per day and 8618.2099767 BTC per hour.
 414 2011-07-14 05:08:10 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 411277 2
 415 2011-07-14 05:08:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 411277 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 2, is 20 seconds
 416 2011-07-14 05:08:56 <lfm> ok by that you should have a lot more then 42 shares in a day, yes
 417 2011-07-14 05:10:18 <denisx> lfm: I think you are totally misunderstanding me
 418 2011-07-14 05:10:30 <lfm> ya probably
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 424 2011-07-14 05:15:11 <Zagitta> nothing but coding for 3 days straight is starting to make me sick of it
 425 2011-07-14 05:15:37 <lfm> can't help you with that.
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 427 2011-07-14 05:16:31 <Zagitta> lfm: useless as allways then... jkjk :p
 428 2011-07-14 05:19:39 <lfm> Alice Cooper said on the radio tonight Beunos Aries has the most psychiatrists per capita, you may want to move there. Hows that for helpful? (jk)
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 431 2011-07-14 05:26:23 <IO-> one of my clients is a real Alice Coopers Town Bar in phx az
 432 2011-07-14 05:26:31 <IO-> the owner said cooper has never once come in
 433 2011-07-14 05:26:39 <IO-> but a lot of other stars have
 434 2011-07-14 05:28:20 <sacarlson> any experts on namecoin code in here or where would they hang out?
 435 2011-07-14 05:28:39 <IO-> sorry can't help
 436 2011-07-14 05:28:55 <IO-> i'm looking up tickets to beunos aries
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 439 2011-07-14 05:39:07 <AndyBr> going there now? it's freezing
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 449 2011-07-14 05:53:52 <lfm> He claims to be sending his radio show from Arizona
 450 2011-07-14 05:55:01 pipo22 has joined
 451 2011-07-14 05:55:36 <IO-> ya he lives here
 452 2011-07-14 05:56:18 <erle-> my gnome doesnt eat the new ico file
 453 2011-07-14 05:56:20 <erle-> in git
 454 2011-07-14 05:56:30 <erle-> no preview, no use as icon
 455 2011-07-14 05:56:40 <erle-> firefox and gimp preview it well
 456 2011-07-14 06:00:36 <AndyBr> oh, about BA having psychiatrists, that's true. they are obsessed about that shit
 457 2011-07-14 06:00:43 <AndyBr> and they have a shit ton of models :D
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 462 2011-07-14 06:05:18 <lfm> AndyBr: you live there?
 463 2011-07-14 06:05:40 <AndyBr> lfm: couple of months of the year, yea
 464 2011-07-14 06:05:47 <AndyBr> well, like 3-4 months
 465 2011-07-14 06:06:07 <lfm> when its warm? grin
 466 2011-07-14 06:06:12 unclemantis has joined
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 468 2011-07-14 06:06:50 <erle-> AndyBr, BA? models?
 469 2011-07-14 06:07:03 <lfm> Beunos Aries
 470 2011-07-14 06:07:52 <AndyBr> buenos aires, capital of argentina
 471 2011-07-14 06:07:57 <erle-> from where have you gone there?
 472 2011-07-14 06:08:03 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 473 2011-07-14 06:08:14 <AndyBr> yes, when it's warm. it has reversed temperature from where i normally live, which is norway
 474 2011-07-14 06:08:29 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 475 2011-07-14 06:09:26 <erle-> haha, yea
 476 2011-07-14 06:09:30 <erle-> winter now :)
 477 2011-07-14 06:10:01 <erle-> i have never been more south than the canarian isles
 478 2011-07-14 06:10:09 RazielZ has joined
 479 2011-07-14 06:10:11 <Zagitta> If i have the blockheader hash stored in a byte array and want to check for H != 0, what index would i need to check at?
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 481 2011-07-14 06:10:16 <AndyBr> yeah. you can't really buy warm clothes there (they dont care), nobody has proper heating, no insulation. -pain-
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 484 2011-07-14 06:11:44 <lfm> Zagitta: it would be 4 bytes at the most significant end depending how you look at it
 485 2011-07-14 06:12:26 <Zagitta> oh yeah the edianess
 486 2011-07-14 06:13:13 <lfm> Zagitta: ya the endianness of mining gets kinda complicated and bitcoin doesnt really help by switching it around for some things
 487 2011-07-14 06:13:52 <lfm> partly cuz sha256 is kinda defined as bigendian and bitcoin is mostly little endian
 488 2011-07-14 06:13:55 <Zagitta> lfm: yeah.... :S
 489 2011-07-14 06:14:23 Akinava has joined
 490 2011-07-14 06:14:42 <Zagitta> lfm: okay WTH... now i've tried both ends of the array but i still get nothing but H != 0 hashes
 491 2011-07-14 06:15:21 <lfm> ya well only 1 in 4 billion hashes has H=0
 492 2011-07-14 06:15:27 <denisx> the something is wrong ;)
 493 2011-07-14 06:15:35 <denisx> +n
 494 2011-07-14 06:17:07 <Zagitta> lfm: if that's the case then is diablominer/phoenix still reporting them to me?
 495 2011-07-14 06:17:38 <lfm> I dont know, I think they only send when they think the hash should be h==0
 496 2011-07-14 06:18:22 <lfm> like they check but who knows they might have bugs
 497 2011-07-14 06:18:42 <exgran>  LOLZ @ #bitcoin-begging
 498 2011-07-14 06:18:52 <exgran> cant make an honest buck...
 499 2011-07-14 06:18:56 <JFK911> yes please help me bury my grandmother
 500 2011-07-14 06:19:05 <JFK911> the undertaker takes btc
 501 2011-07-14 06:19:07 <exgran> yikes.
 502 2011-07-14 06:19:09 <Zagitta> lfm: well right now i'm suspecting my code more than anything
 503 2011-07-14 06:19:10 <lfm> shes gonna die soon?
 504 2011-07-14 06:19:32 <lfm> Zagitta: yup, that would seem to be the best bet
 505 2011-07-14 06:20:29 <Zagitta> lfm: question just is WHAT i'm doing wrong, there's so many things it could be ><
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 521 2011-07-14 06:30:36 <Zagitta> good night
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 547 2011-07-14 07:16:46 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r144 /trunk/pom.xml: Add distribution management section to Maven pom.xml. Patch from Gary Rowe. Update issue 13. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r144/
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 559 2011-07-14 07:36:19 <AndyBr> i'm creating a bitcoin service and need some redundancy in case one box running bitcoind goes down. anyone have experience with this? can i leave wallet.dat on a share/SAN/other shared storage?
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 566 2011-07-14 08:00:54 <lfm> AndyBr: the wallet has keys for the next 100 transactions if you use new keys for each.
 567 2011-07-14 08:01:11 danbri has joined
 568 2011-07-14 08:01:25 <lfm> after that it could get out of sync with a backup
 569 2011-07-14 08:02:13 <AndyBr> lfm: i see. what i meant was running two instances of bitcoind, on separate servers, both accessing the same data dir
 570 2011-07-14 08:02:47 brooss has joined
 571 2011-07-14 08:03:23 <lfm> I am quite sure you could only run one at a time, if they never run at the same time it should be ok
 572 2011-07-14 08:04:01 <lfm> the socket for a single bitcoin should be accessible from two clients tho
 573 2011-07-14 08:05:20 <AndyBr> right, talking about the server falling down here
 574 2011-07-14 08:06:09 <lfm> if the bitcoin server dies then you need the wallet backed up again and it needs to be within the last 100 txn
 575 2011-07-14 08:06:15 <AndyBr> the next best solution would be that the servers are swapped in case of failure, starting bitcoind on Server2 if Server1 goes down
 576 2011-07-14 08:06:34 <AndyBr> well, the wallet would be stored in a SAN, and be unaffected
 577 2011-07-14 08:06:44 <AndyBr> just the operating system on the server would crash
 578 2011-07-14 08:07:15 <lfm> ok so long as they dont try to run both servers at once I think it would be ok
 579 2011-07-14 08:08:20 ThomasV has joined
 580 2011-07-14 08:09:00 <lfm> bitcoin uses a lock file in the data dir to prevent two instances trying to use the same dir
 581 2011-07-14 08:10:14 <cuddlefish> ooooh, yes.
 582 2011-07-14 08:10:25 <cuddlefish> deal with a supplier went through.
 583 2011-07-14 08:10:38 <lfm> grats
 584 2011-07-14 08:10:40 <cuddlefish> you can now buy almost ANYTHING with Bitcoins.
 585 2011-07-14 08:10:48 <lfm> url?
 586 2011-07-14 08:10:54 <cuddlefish> i mean almost ANYTHING you could find in walmart
 587 2011-07-14 08:11:01 <cuddlefish> lfm: No website yet.
 588 2011-07-14 08:11:18 <lfm> oh so I cant buy almost anything yet
 589 2011-07-14 08:11:21 <cuddlefish> you can
 590 2011-07-14 08:11:27 <cuddlefish> i'll do it through IRC/forum
 591 2011-07-14 08:11:33 <lfm> I want a bycycle
 592 2011-07-14 08:11:40 <lfm> bicycle
 593 2011-07-14 08:11:45 <cuddlefish> once sec
 594 2011-07-14 08:13:00 <lfm> delivered to Calgary (in Canada)
 595 2011-07-14 08:15:06 <lfm> We do have Walmarts here tho
 596 2011-07-14 08:16:06 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
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 600 2011-07-14 08:19:12 <cuddlefish> lfm: Hmm, no bicycles, just parts. probably too big, sorry
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 604 2011-07-14 08:23:01 <lfm> ok, ill look forward to a web site
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 606 2011-07-14 08:24:57 yossarian_ has joined
 607 2011-07-14 08:25:15 <yossarian_> Hi @all.
 608 2011-07-14 08:25:35 <yossarian_> I'm trying to install bitcoin version .24 on ubuntu 11.04
 609 2011-07-14 08:25:50 <yossarian_> Does anybody know how?
 610 2011-07-14 08:25:53 <yossarian_> :)
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 615 2011-07-14 08:32:56 <yossarian_> Oh. That was easy.
 616 2011-07-14 08:33:00 <yossarian_> Thanks anyways. :D
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 618 2011-07-14 08:36:47 <genewitch> just out of curiosity, why does bitcoin.exe stay running after i tell it to quit in the systray?
 619 2011-07-14 08:37:08 <genewitch> like the icon disappears, but it's still in task manager
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 624 2011-07-14 08:51:11 <lfm> genewitch: sometimes bitcoin takes longer then you might expect to shutdown. just give it a little more time. If it hasnt shut down after a minute or two, let us know.
 625 2011-07-14 08:54:53 <genewitch> lfm: it took me longer than a minute or two to log in to screen again
 626 2011-07-14 08:55:00 <genewitch> i'll reboot in a second and let you know if it happens again
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 660 2011-07-14 10:26:33 <prof7bit> "
 661 2011-07-14 10:26:34 <prof7bit>         // Satoshi's implementation ignores garbage before the magic header bytes. We have to do the same because
 662 2011-07-14 10:26:34 <prof7bit>         // sometimes it sends us stuff that isn't part of any message.
 663 2011-07-14 10:26:34 <prof7bit> "  <--- IMHO this should be fixed. The protocol is ugly enough without these kinds of bugs already.
 664 2011-07-14 10:28:20 <justmoon> prof7bit, nobody is disputing that, however nobody has pinpointed the bug yet - and to make the parsing robust against it can't hurt imho
 665 2011-07-14 10:30:20 <prof7bit> the magic bytes boundary sequence mechanism isn't implemented correctly anyways, there is nothing preventing the appearance of these bytes randomly anywhere else in the protocol.
 666 2011-07-14 10:31:12 <justmoon> prof7bit, normally the magic bytes won't be needed, they only act as a last resort to re-sync if the parser ever goes out of step
 667 2011-07-14 10:31:57 <justmoon> theoretically, even if the parser desyncs and then mistakes some data for the magic bytes, it'll reject the message as invalid and then resync with the next occurance of the magic bytes
 668 2011-07-14 10:32:31 <justmoon> and again, all that should never happen/be necessary
 669 2011-07-14 10:32:31 stalled has joined
 670 2011-07-14 10:33:34 <prof7bit> yesterday i had my own partial implemntation running for the first time (only version and verack parsing for now, the rest only read and ignored the exact byte numbers according to the header) and it ran for some time and showed me inv and ping and suddenly came out of sync.
 671 2011-07-14 10:34:14 dobalina has joined
 672 2011-07-14 10:34:22 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: real men use Construct.
 673 2011-07-14 10:34:23 <justmoon> prof7bit, should not happen, there is a bug in your code
 674 2011-07-14 10:34:29 <cuddlefish> it is the best parser in the whole wide world
 675 2011-07-14 10:34:34 <cuddlefish> it will parse anything
 676 2011-07-14 10:34:35 <cuddlefish> ANYTHING
 677 2011-07-14 10:34:39 <prof7bit> I haven't looked into the sources yet, I fear they are even more ugly than my own code
 678 2011-07-14 10:34:43 <cuddlefish> and look beautiful doing it
 679 2011-07-14 10:35:05 <cuddlefish> ;;google construct python parser
 680 2011-07-14 10:35:06 <gribble> Construct (python library) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_(python_library)>; 31.1. parser — Access Python parse trees — Python v2.7.2 documentation: <http://docs.python.org/library/parser.html>; Ned Batchelder: Python parsing tools: <http://nedbatchelder.com/text/python-parsers.html>
 681 2011-07-14 10:35:14 <justmoon> prof7bit, bitcoinjs logs if it encounters inter-message garbage and I haven't seen that message in months of all kinds of testing on testnet and mainnet
 682 2011-07-14 10:35:18 <cuddlefish> first link. the second library's borying
 683 2011-07-14 10:38:23 <prof7bit> i looked into the bitcoinj souces today (also for the first time, only to see what they have done and their architecture is strikingly similar to what I have done in Pascal) and I found this source comment. I will do more testing and logging today. maybe it was a bug in my implementation. it SHOULD not (never) happen if a client implements the protocol correctly. there is *NO* way for bytes to randomly appear or disappear on
 684 2011-07-14 10:38:23 <prof7bit> a TCP connection.
 685 2011-07-14 10:39:44 <justmoon> prof7bit, yep, the version, verack stuff is tricky. you need to keep two protocol version numbers (sendVer and recvVer) and make the checksum handling dependent on those to correctly initiate the connection
 686 2011-07-14 10:39:58 Nexus7 has joined
 687 2011-07-14 10:40:46 <justmoon> cuddlefish, have you implemented bitcoin's var_int with construct? curious to see how that would look
 688 2011-07-14 10:41:03 <prof7bit> yes. this alone makes the protocol more ugly by an estimated factor of roughly 2.5
 689 2011-07-14 10:41:10 <cuddlefish> justmoon: what does var_int do
 690 2011-07-14 10:41:16 <justmoon> prof7bit, agreed :|
 691 2011-07-14 10:41:34 <justmoon> cuddlefish, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
 692 2011-07-14 10:41:49 <justmoon> it's an integer type whose length depends on its first byte
 693 2011-07-14 10:41:49 <prof7bit> my ReadMessage method could be so simple... but it is not allowed to be.
 694 2011-07-14 10:42:03 <cuddlefish> justmoon: Ah, that's trivial
 695 2011-07-14 10:42:23 <cuddlefish> construct allows switches
 696 2011-07-14 10:42:36 <justmoon> prof7bit, the only way to get it exactly right is just by imitating the official client line by line imho
 697 2011-07-14 10:43:01 <justmoon> if you want to have compatibility with ancient versions, it gets even crazier
 698 2011-07-14 10:43:06 moa7 has joined
 699 2011-07-14 10:43:20 <cuddlefish> justmoon: "wrong version? drop connection" is the smart way
 700 2011-07-14 10:43:28 <cuddlefish> for a non-stupid client
 701 2011-07-14 10:43:38 <cuddlefish> satoshi's a brilliant systems engineer but a shitty programmer
 702 2011-07-14 10:43:53 <prof7bit> my implementation allows for the exceptions that are mentioned in the wiki page, this seems rather trivial
 703 2011-07-14 10:44:32 <prof7bit> it only concerns individual messages, but this thing with two different headers is outright crazy
 704 2011-07-14 10:46:02 <justmoon> prof7bit, did you see this yet: if (GetTime() > 1329696000) ?
 705 2011-07-14 10:46:06 <justmoon> in net.h
 706 2011-07-14 10:47:03 <justmoon> the client will actually change behavior in feb 2012 (specifically it'll stop supporting older clients)
 707 2011-07-14 10:50:34 <prof7bit> oh.my.god.
 708 2011-07-14 10:51:24 <prof7bit> why did i heva the crazy idea to try to implement this. i ca already see where this will end.
 709 2011-07-14 10:51:29 yossarian_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 710 2011-07-14 10:51:50 <justmoon> prof7bit, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 711 2011-07-14 10:54:42 <lfm> date -d @1329696000
 712 2011-07-14 10:54:42 <lfm> Sun Feb 19 17:00:00 MST 2012
 713 2011-07-14 10:54:59 <moa7> so just built 0.3.25 on ubuntu 11.04 no problems .... except the gui doesn't come up when launching ...debug log looks fine ... any ideas
 714 2011-07-14 10:55:03 <moa7> ?
 715 2011-07-14 10:55:28 <cuddlefish> moa7: oh boy, regression
 716 2011-07-14 10:55:29 <erus`> have you tried turning it on and off again?
 717 2011-07-14 10:55:59 <moa7> cuddlefish: how's ya mean?
 718 2011-07-14 10:56:01 <prof7bit> i spent 3 days already only to try to find the most simple and *elegant* way to detect and instantiate incoming message classes and the code just wont start to lose its ugliness.
 719 2011-07-14 10:56:07 <moa7> yep launched several times now
 720 2011-07-14 10:56:18 <cuddlefish> moa7: there was the same bug in .21 or .22
 721 2011-07-14 10:57:01 <sipa> back then it was a problem with an incompatibility between wx2.9 and some window manager
 722 2011-07-14 10:57:09 <justmoon> wait a second, there is a 0.3.25?!
 723 2011-07-14 10:57:18 <sipa> justmoon: current git head is 0.3.25
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 725 2011-07-14 10:57:23 <justmoon> k
 726 2011-07-14 10:57:25 <sipa> it will probably be changed to 0.4.0 before release
 727 2011-07-14 10:57:32 <justmoon> yeah, that's why I was confused
 728 2011-07-14 10:57:45 <sipa> moa7: i believe the bitcoin-release repo has patches for wx to make it compatible
 729 2011-07-14 10:57:47 <moa7> just wanted to check out wallet newness stuff.
 730 2011-07-14 10:57:52 <moa7> with gui.
 731 2011-07-14 10:58:05 * sipa *really* wants to get rid of the wx crap
 732 2011-07-14 10:58:22 <prof7bit> wx is not crap. you just have to know how to use it.
 733 2011-07-14 10:58:32 <justmoon> sipa, aren't all gui libraries pretty crazy dependencies?
 734 2011-07-14 10:58:33 <prof7bit> wx is a brilliant piece of code
 735 2011-07-14 10:58:34 <sipa> wx2.8 would have been fine
 736 2011-07-14 10:58:35 BlueMatt has joined
 737 2011-07-14 10:59:01 <sipa> but depending on a dev release is just asking for trouble with packaging
 738 2011-07-14 10:59:15 <moa7> bitcoin-release repo?
 739 2011-07-14 10:59:21 <prof7bit> yes. 2.9 was a bad decision. and there was no reason to chose 2.9
 740 2011-07-14 10:59:38 <justmoon> sipa, kind of funny, node-bitcoin-p2p used to depend on node's dev release, I eventually had to backport it for current stable :D
 741 2011-07-14 10:59:40 <sipa> translation stuff is much nicer in 2.9
 742 2011-07-14 10:59:45 <lfm> Satoshi said he used 2.9 due to some unicode support.
 743 2011-07-14 10:59:57 <sipa> BlueMatt made a backport to 2.8
 744 2011-07-14 11:00:17 <erus`> i dont like the macros in wx
 745 2011-07-14 11:01:02 <cuddlefish> erus`: i don't like wx
 746 2011-07-14 11:01:09 <sipa> moa7: it's in mainline it seems, see contrib/wx-patches
 747 2011-07-14 11:01:22 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/wx-patches/README
 748 2011-07-14 11:02:44 <moa7> okay so gotta patch wxwidgets ... may as well go back to my beloved fedora
 749 2011-07-14 11:02:52 <prof7bit> and i have never had any unicode problems with wx 2.8, at least not when using it from python.
 750 2011-07-14 11:03:04 <sipa> wx2.8 supports unicode just fine
 751 2011-07-14 11:03:20 <lfm> moa7: why patch wx? just use 2.9?
 752 2011-07-14 11:03:36 <moa7> just running with what is on system ...
 753 2011-07-14 11:03:42 <prof7bit> 2.9 has some improvements for Mac. but 2.8 runs on Mac also.
 754 2011-07-14 11:03:46 <lfm> not if you patch it
 755 2011-07-14 11:03:50 <moa7> to see what real sysadmins have to deal with
 756 2011-07-14 11:04:18 <sipa> note that fedora has a patches openssl which removes EC stuff
 757 2011-07-14 11:04:22 <sipa> *patched
 758 2011-07-14 11:04:44 <moa7> I know so if I'm patching stuff I may as well go and do it all there
 759 2011-07-14 11:05:17 <moa7> patching/compiling libs, deps etc
 760 2011-07-14 11:05:25 <lfm> moa7: seems to me if you're patching stuff you might as well use the patch called 2.9
 761 2011-07-14 11:05:31 <cuddlefish> moa7: go all in and use Gentoo
 762 2011-07-14 11:05:44 <sipa> cuddlefish: he was talking about sysadmins, not people with too much time :)
 763 2011-07-14 11:07:05 <prof7bit> there is no need to patch wx. the proper way is to work around an undesired behaviour of a lib with code in your own application. and this is true for all libs.
 764 2011-07-14 11:07:13 <moa7> lfm: is 11.04 sys wxwidget is 2.8
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 766 2011-07-14 11:07:26 <cuddlefish> if you're patching a lib you're not using the right lib.
 767 2011-07-14 11:08:11 <moa7> devs need to start compiling on clean systems
 768 2011-07-14 11:08:17 <moa7> asking for trouble.
 769 2011-07-14 11:08:18 <prof7bit> +1
 770 2011-07-14 11:08:29 <cuddlefish> sipa: have you put your importing patch into .4?
 771 2011-07-14 11:08:42 <sipa> moa7: there is a deterministic virtual machine, reconfigured from scratch for each build
 772 2011-07-14 11:09:00 <cuddlefish> sipa: configured? No. List of packages and apt-get
 773 2011-07-14 11:09:12 <prof7bit> a typical dev system for testing and release building should have a pretty standard mainstream OS version installed.
 774 2011-07-14 11:09:42 <sipa> cuddlefish: yes, that's what i mean
 775 2011-07-14 11:09:50 <moa7> okay maybe 11.04 is a little too new.
 776 2011-07-14 11:09:53 <prof7bit> bleeding edge experiments are for stuff that will be released in 3 years.
 777 2011-07-14 11:10:01 <sipa> cuddlefish: as much as possible is not custom
 778 2011-07-14 11:10:17 <sipa> cuddlefish: it will go in 0.4 most likely
 779 2011-07-14 11:10:24 <moa7> sipa: thnx for your help.
 780 2011-07-14 11:10:25 <lfm> prof7bit: bitcoin will get outa beta in 3 years
 781 2011-07-14 11:10:35 <cuddlefish> sipa: yaay.
 782 2011-07-14 11:10:38 <prof7bit> it might be dead in 3 years.
 783 2011-07-14 11:10:45 <cuddlefish> sipa: i'll give you a 1 BTC private key if it is :P
 784 2011-07-14 11:10:52 <sipa> cuddlefish: haha :D
 785 2011-07-14 11:10:53 <lfm> ya, itll be dead but it will be outa beta
 786 2011-07-14 11:10:54 <prof7bit> i see this danger
 787 2011-07-14 11:11:11 <mtrlt> anything might be dead in 3 years
 788 2011-07-14 11:11:12 <mtrlt> or tomorrow
 789 2011-07-14 11:11:16 cuddlefish is now known as wafflefish
 790 2011-07-14 11:11:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: did you see JS's suggestion about boost::signal?
 791 2011-07-14 11:11:29 <sipa> on the mailinglist
 792 2011-07-14 11:12:15 <BlueMatt> yea responding now, though its an entirely separate suggestion than CHub
 793 2011-07-14 11:12:21 <prof7bit> maybe i have my (much faster, much more compatible, much more feature-rich) client ready until then and can take over the leadership.
 794 2011-07-14 11:12:28 <BlueMatt> his is wrt uis which get stuff from wallet, not from CHub (IMHO)
 795 2011-07-14 11:12:45 <wafflefish> BlueMatt: .. what
 796 2011-07-14 11:12:45 <lfm> prof7bit: go for it! sounds good
 797 2011-07-14 11:12:46 <justmoon> prof7bit, get in line :P
 798 2011-07-14 11:13:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes yes, it is entirely separate
 799 2011-07-14 11:13:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: one is communication between nodedb/net/wallet/mempool, the other is communication between wallet/rpc/ui
 800 2011-07-14 11:13:48 <BlueMatt> yep
 801 2011-07-14 11:13:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: nonetheless, boost::signal could be used for CHub as well
 802 2011-07-14 11:14:31 <sipa> it has priorities, tracking of listeners that have ceased to exist, combination of results, ...
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 806 2011-07-14 11:23:35 <BlueMatt> hmmm...It doesnt appear to support calling methods of objects instead of just calling a random function
 807 2011-07-14 11:23:51 <BlueMatt> which makes the whole thing so much simpler
 808 2011-07-14 11:24:20 <sipa> it's one line of code to do the dispatch
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 810 2011-07-14 11:25:11 <BlueMatt> yea, but becomes 20 lines of code to add each new listener...
 811 2011-07-14 11:25:21 wafflefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 812 2011-07-14 11:25:23 <sipa> true
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 814 2011-07-14 11:25:49 <BlueMatt> could be useful to do the commit stuff that way, but I really prefer to be able to call functions from objects instead of just functions
 815 2011-07-14 11:26:01 <sipa> that may be a reason to not use it for CHub
 816 2011-07-14 11:26:40 <sipa> or even for wallet listeners
 817 2011-07-14 11:27:00 <sipa> but it would rid you of quite some implementation work to write the dispatching
 818 2011-07-14 11:27:22 <BlueMatt> the dispatching is a simple foreach...
 819 2011-07-14 11:27:35 <sipa> ... for each signal
 820 2011-07-14 11:27:39 <BlueMatt> true
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 822 2011-07-14 11:28:21 <BlueMatt> I like them, but I dont think it quite fits into CHub, but Ill probably use it for doing the dispatching of commits
 823 2011-07-14 11:28:25 <sipa> anyway, i don't really care whether boost::signal is used or not, but at least for the wallet listening it would make it very easy to implement it right now
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 825 2011-07-14 11:28:51 <sipa> meh, either use it for everything or do something yourself for everything within CHub
 826 2011-07-14 11:29:15 <BlueMatt> no, Im saying to dispatch the functions internal to CHub
 827 2011-07-14 11:29:20 <BlueMatt> not external ones
 828 2011-07-14 11:30:03 <sipa> not sure about that, but that's something best left to decide for the one who implements it
 829 2011-07-14 11:30:10 <sipa> i.e. you :)
 830 2011-07-14 11:30:26 <BlueMatt> lol, ok well I dont plan on writing that part for quite some time so...
 831 2011-07-14 11:30:37 <sipa> haha
 832 2011-07-14 11:30:38 <BlueMatt> maybe commit it without commit handler threading...
 833 2011-07-14 11:30:48 <BlueMatt> then write the threaded parts to that
 834 2011-07-14 11:30:52 <sipa> i wouldn't do thread stuff now
 835 2011-07-14 11:31:01 <sipa> currently it isn't threaded either, and it works
 836 2011-07-14 11:31:16 <BlueMatt> yep
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 839 2011-07-14 11:32:12 <sipa> anyway, for the wallet listener i would use boost::signal, and implement it very soon
 840 2011-07-14 11:32:25 <BlueMatt> you can do that entirely separate from me
 841 2011-07-14 11:32:33 <sipa> sure
 842 2011-07-14 11:32:42 <sipa> i wasn't implying that you should do that implementation
 843 2011-07-14 11:32:50 <sipa> (nor myself)
 844 2011-07-14 11:32:53 <BlueMatt> I was implying you should ;)
 845 2011-07-14 11:32:59 <sipa> meh
 846 2011-07-14 11:33:14 <BlueMatt> wait and see if JS does it...
 847 2011-07-14 11:33:16 <WakiMiko_> BlueMatt: trying your latest nightly, options->encrypt wallet->cancel shouldnt produce an error message about a too short passphrase, it should just return the gui
 848 2011-07-14 11:33:25 <sipa> haha
 849 2011-07-14 11:33:38 <sipa> at least 3rd time you get that bug reported, BlueMatt
 850 2011-07-14 11:33:40 <WakiMiko_> also, same for "reenter your passphrase" dialog and the change passphrase dialog
 851 2011-07-14 11:33:43 <WakiMiko_> oh
 852 2011-07-14 11:33:44 <BlueMatt> yep
 853 2011-07-14 11:33:44 <WakiMiko_> im sorry
 854 2011-07-14 11:33:46 <WakiMiko_> lol
 855 2011-07-14 11:33:47 <sipa> don't be
 856 2011-07-14 11:33:55 <BlueMatt> no, it needs fixed
 857 2011-07-14 11:34:01 <BlueMatt> just havent gotten around to it yet
 858 2011-07-14 11:34:19 <WakiMiko_> alright, also devs: thanks for the huge amount of unpaid work you put in all of this!!
 859 2011-07-14 11:34:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you add a 0.4 tag to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/407
 860 2011-07-14 11:34:59 <sipa> WakiMiko_: how do you mean unpaid? oh, you didn't know there secretly goes 0.1% of all transactions to us?
 861 2011-07-14 11:35:02 <sipa> *oops*
 862 2011-07-14 11:35:07 <WakiMiko_> haha
 863 2011-07-14 11:35:16 <BlueMatt> all those fees, yea miners dont get those
 864 2011-07-14 11:37:26 <WakiMiko_> i just quit bitcoin and restarted it, it didnt ask for a passphrase. does it only ask when sending a tx?
 865 2011-07-14 11:37:33 <BlueMatt> yes
 866 2011-07-14 11:37:35 ThomasV has joined
 867 2011-07-14 11:37:39 <WakiMiko_> makes sense
 868 2011-07-14 11:38:18 kluge has joined
 869 2011-07-14 11:38:51 <BlueMatt> read the README and the commitmsg
 870 2011-07-14 11:39:36 <BlueMatt> the commitmsg of https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/4e87d341f75f13bbd7d108c31c03886fbc4df56f and README from https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/b6b039d84ed3d1616cb97ee45ff24ec343efbed0
 871 2011-07-14 11:40:00 minimoose has joined
 872 2011-07-14 11:40:26 <WakiMiko_> reading, thanks!
 873 2011-07-14 11:42:03 <prof7bit> out of curiosity: is there anywhere a nice graph depicting the block size vs. time?
 874 2011-07-14 11:43:49 <BlueMatt> lol that trademark troll who tried to trademark bitcoin already abandoned it...
 875 2011-07-14 11:44:10 <prof7bit> or transaction count vs. time?
 876 2011-07-14 11:46:33 TD has joined
 877 2011-07-14 11:49:44 <prof7bit> s/nice graph/any graph someone made anywhere on the web so i don't have to make on myself/
 878 2011-07-14 11:50:14 <sipa> my god #412 speeds startup up
 879 2011-07-14 11:50:22 <prof7bit> because i am lazy and it is really not important.
 880 2011-07-14 11:51:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes very much, go ahead and pull it
 881 2011-07-14 11:51:28 <sipa> i was about to
 882 2011-07-14 11:58:44 <BlueMatt> god I hate github's bugtracking system...
 883 2011-07-14 12:03:50 Speeder has joined
 884 2011-07-14 12:05:57 <phantomcircuit> blueadept, lol
 885 2011-07-14 12:06:00 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt,
 886 2011-07-14 12:06:08 <phantomcircuit> god xchats autocomplete is stupid
 887 2011-07-14 12:06:22 <phantomcircuit> so i realized something today
 888 2011-07-14 12:06:27 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: because you always want to talk to the person who is first alphabetically.
 889 2011-07-14 12:06:40 <phantomcircuit> if i do inverted pair matching the rates wont match up
 890 2011-07-14 12:07:25 <phantomcircuit> SELL GBP/BTC SELL BTC/GBP can match perfectly fine (with potentially 1 pip of rounding in the rate)
 891 2011-07-14 12:07:29 Gonzago has joined
 892 2011-07-14 12:07:42 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: rounding?
 893 2011-07-14 12:07:47 <wafflefish> are you using flo-oats?
 894 2011-07-14 12:07:48 <phantomcircuit> but recording the trade is messed up because 1 of them uses rate and the other 1/rate
 895 2011-07-14 12:07:57 <phantomcircuit> wafflefish, no fuck floats
 896 2011-07-14 12:08:14 <phantomcircuit> if im doing inverted pair matching i have to calculate one of the rates as 1/rate
 897 2011-07-14 12:08:30 <phantomcircuit> which almost always will cause a very small rounding error
 898 2011-07-14 12:08:34 <phantomcircuit> a maximum of 1 pip
 899 2011-07-14 12:08:40 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: I see
 900 2011-07-14 12:08:47 <phantomcircuit> solution? make 1 pip be retarded small
 901 2011-07-14 12:09:30 <phantomcircuit> either way the rounding occurs in calculating the want rate and not in calculating the actual used rate
 902 2011-07-14 12:09:39 <wafflefish> right
 903 2011-07-14 12:09:40 <phantomcircuit> so most of the time it wont actually result in any rounding at all
 904 2011-07-14 12:10:06 bender32 has joined
 905 2011-07-14 12:10:27 <phantomcircuit> basically im doing this so we dont need a market maker...
 906 2011-07-14 12:10:31 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 907 2011-07-14 12:12:20 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: how does that help
 908 2011-07-14 12:12:21 <phantomcircuit> wafflefish, like right now if you wanted to sell exactly $20 USD for BTC
 909 2011-07-14 12:12:24 <phantomcircuit> you cant do it
 910 2011-07-14 12:12:30 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: sure you can...
 911 2011-07-14 12:12:43 <phantomcircuit> lol no you cant
 912 2011-07-14 12:12:57 <phantomcircuit> you can approximate the rate and hope that the order goes through immediately
 913 2011-07-14 12:13:14 <wafflefish> phantomcircuit: Ah, I see what youuuu mean
 914 2011-07-14 12:13:18 <phantomcircuit> but because bitcoins are bought/sold as BTC/USD you can only buy/sell specific amounts of bitcoins
 915 2011-07-14 12:13:53 <phantomcircuit> oh snap i know what i can do
 916 2011-07-14 12:14:09 <phantomcircuit> (sold|bought)_amount (bought|sold)_amount
 917 2011-07-14 12:14:15 <phantomcircuit> base_amount quote_amount
 918 2011-07-14 12:14:26 <phantomcircuit> shazam dont store the rate calculate it on the fly
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 920 2011-07-14 12:14:51 <phantomcircuit> guess he didn't agree
 921 2011-07-14 12:16:15 <lfm> I think there is accounting standards for those sorts of calculations
 922 2011-07-14 12:16:50 <moa7> denominaire extraordinaire
 923 2011-07-14 12:17:22 <lfm> denominaire extraordinaire?
 924 2011-07-14 12:17:24 dvide has quit ()
 925 2011-07-14 12:17:47 <phantomcircuit> lfm, i dont believe there is actually
 926 2011-07-14 12:17:49 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 927 2011-07-14 12:18:35 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ok maybe there is a multiplicity of standards then! grin
 928 2011-07-14 12:18:35 <phantomcircuit> if you're rounding in accounting you're doing something wrong usually
 929 2011-07-14 12:18:49 <phantomcircuit> for purposes of calculating sales tax and such things there are rules though
 930 2011-07-14 12:19:19 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya, thats what I mean. like they must have standards for exchange rates and whatnot
 931 2011-07-14 12:19:22 <phantomcircuit> there are rules for brokers accepting orders, if the order would result in rounding it should be rejected
 932 2011-07-14 12:19:52 <phantomcircuit> like for USD you can legally only place trades with 4 places after the decimal for amounts < 1.00
 933 2011-07-14 12:20:04 <phantomcircuit> so 1.0001 is an illegal amount for a broker to accept
 934 2011-07-14 12:20:08 <phantomcircuit> but 0.9999 isn't
 935 2011-07-14 12:20:24 <lfm> you mean 1.00001?
 936 2011-07-14 12:21:05 <phantomcircuit> no
 937 2011-07-14 12:21:12 <phantomcircuit> i mean 1.0001 is an illegal amount
 938 2011-07-14 12:21:19 <phantomcircuit> the rule is lol
 939 2011-07-14 12:21:27 <lfm> oh
 940 2011-07-14 12:21:30 BCBot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 941 2011-07-14 12:21:52 <phantomcircuit> if amount > 1 then precision after the decimal must be <=2
 942 2011-07-14 12:21:59 <prof7bit> i can happily by or sell at prices in steps of 0.0001
 943 2011-07-14 12:22:11 <prof7bit> regulated broker
 944 2011-07-14 12:22:37 <lfm> regulated by who? regulated by US?
 945 2011-07-14 12:22:49 <prof7bit> nfa
 946 2011-07-14 12:22:58 <prof7bit> just an example
 947 2011-07-14 12:23:14 <BlueMatt> since when do you have to follow us regulations in the uk?
 948 2011-07-14 12:23:14 <prof7bit> some even allow 0.00001
 949 2011-07-14 12:23:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you dont, but it's the only example i could find
 950 2011-07-14 12:23:40 <phantomcircuit> i couldn't find anything from the UK about rounding
 951 2011-07-14 12:23:41 <lfm> were just looking for a standard
 952 2011-07-14 12:23:41 <prof7bit> it was an example. the us regulations are the most restrictive in the worls
 953 2011-07-14 12:23:43 <phantomcircuit> which is weird
 954 2011-07-14 12:24:03 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, the rules are different for futures fyi
 955 2011-07-14 12:24:03 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: lol, not quite
 956 2011-07-14 12:24:14 <phantomcircuit> yeah not even close
 957 2011-07-14 12:24:21 <phantomcircuit> but they're the most restrictive of major markets
 958 2011-07-14 12:24:30 <phantomcircuit> shit i lost my glasses
 959 2011-07-14 12:24:33 <moa7> put BTC in the denominator
 960 2011-07-14 12:24:42 cypher5001 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 961 2011-07-14 12:25:26 <prof7bit> i was talking about buying and selling currency, not futures.
 962 2011-07-14 12:25:38 <phantomcircuit> moa7, BTC/USD is confusing, that means you price BTC in terms of USD, but buy/sell in amounts of BTC
 963 2011-07-14 12:25:45 <lfm> I think its stuff like if rate is expressed with 4 digits you must trade full dollars so the result is full cents or something like that
 964 2011-07-14 12:25:55 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, weird i explicitly remember seeing that as an example
 965 2011-07-14 12:26:00 <phantomcircuit> maybe the precision was old
 966 2011-07-14 12:26:04 <BlueMatt> hey, when you look at 2008, Id say more regulation of crazy markets is needed (not that the us has that, but I prefer more in this case)
 967 2011-07-14 12:26:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, regulation wouldn't have helped
 968 2011-07-14 12:26:28 <phantomcircuit> since the regulators had no idea what was going on
 969 2011-07-14 12:26:35 <mtrlt> the regulators know nothing
 970 2011-07-14 12:26:38 <moa7> yes so need to use USD/BTC
 971 2011-07-14 12:26:45 <mtrlt> therefore regulation is harmful
 972 2011-07-14 12:26:45 <BlueMatt> thats my point, if you had smart regulators, it absolutely would have helped
 973 2011-07-14 12:26:55 <mtrlt> smart regulator is an oxymoron
 974 2011-07-14 12:27:05 <phantomcircuit> moa7, in USD/BTC BTC isn't in the denominator fyi, it's just a (terrible) naming convention
 975 2011-07-14 12:27:16 <prof7bit> they are only regulating what the small guy is allowed to do. I have moved my oanda account to their europe division now.
 976 2011-07-14 12:27:20 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, smart regulators is almost always an oxymoron
 977 2011-07-14 12:27:27 <moa7> denominator is on the bottom right?
 978 2011-07-14 12:27:43 <phantomcircuit> moa7, yes but USD/BTC is not a fraction
 979 2011-07-14 12:27:43 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: phantomcircuit true, but that doesnt mean its impossible to have sane regulators, just hard
 980 2011-07-14 12:27:50 <phantomcircuit> just a stupid naming convention
 981 2011-07-14 12:28:01 <BlueMatt> but yea, thats why I typically agree that less regulation is almost always better
 982 2011-07-14 12:28:06 <lfm> ratio rather than fraction
 983 2011-07-14 12:28:07 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the regulators will always be stupider than the regulated
 984 2011-07-14 12:28:09 <phantomcircuit> it's a losing game
 985 2011-07-14 12:28:15 <phantomcircuit> the only way to win is to not play
 986 2011-07-14 12:28:16 <moa7> ok, i see .. like miles per hour
 987 2011-07-14 12:28:23 <BlueMatt> but not for banking/stock markets/etc, where their actions control the worlds economy...
 988 2011-07-14 12:28:27 <BlueMatt> so its kinda important...
 989 2011-07-14 12:28:35 <phantomcircuit> moa7, USD/BTC is actually priced in terms of BTC/USD
 990 2011-07-14 12:28:41 <phantomcircuit> moa7, it doesn't make sense at all
 991 2011-07-14 12:28:47 dvide has joined
 992 2011-07-14 12:29:14 <prof7bit> its a convention how things are named
 993 2011-07-14 12:29:21 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, yes
 994 2011-07-14 12:29:29 <phantomcircuit> a convention that confuses the hell out of people
 995 2011-07-14 12:29:38 <moa7> $15 per BTC 1
 996 2011-07-14 12:29:53 <moa7> = 15 USD/BTC
 997 2011-07-14 12:29:53 <lfm> phantomcircuit: well instead of using a strict inverse, you can hide your profit margin in their and round the direction you want
 998 2011-07-14 12:29:55 <prof7bit> not using this convention *sometimes* would confuse even more
 999 2011-07-14 12:30:04 <phantomcircuit> $15 per BTC would be BTC/USD
1000 2011-07-14 12:30:24 <phantomcircuit> lfm, well the rate will always be rounded such that your limit wont be violated
1001 2011-07-14 12:30:56 <prof7bit> call the symbol BTCUSD without the slash, then the confusion goes away
1002 2011-07-14 12:31:04 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, yeah
1003 2011-07-14 12:31:08 <lfm> btc:usd
1004 2011-07-14 12:31:08 <moa7> use a : to represent ratio ....
1005 2011-07-14 12:31:13 <moa7> USD:BTC
1006 2011-07-14 12:31:16 <phantomcircuit> heh
1007 2011-07-14 12:31:31 <prof7bit> : and / have the same mathematical meaning
1008 2011-07-14 12:31:40 <phantomcircuit> lfm, hmm i could try and do that
1009 2011-07-14 12:31:49 <lfm> but you just reverse it instead of inverting it
1010 2011-07-14 12:31:50 <moa7> but / isn't used properly by finance guys
1011 2011-07-14 12:31:52 <phantomcircuit> lfm, but i want the fee structure to be as explicit as possible
1012 2011-07-14 12:32:15 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Stéphane Gimenez master * rd655a26 / src/net.cpp : Single DB transaction for addresses from DNS seeds - http://bit.ly/qeQQLf https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/d655a26c9dd157a9e4bf08bff14bfaa69791287a
1013 2011-07-14 12:32:16 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r24271c5 / (src/main.cpp src/net.cpp src/net.h): Merge pull request #412 from sgimenez/db-transactions ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/24271c542b9a0d6016badf5438fb7e5ff7961ace
1014 2011-07-14 12:32:17 <prof7bit> BTC/USD * 15$/1BTC  == 1
1015 2011-07-14 12:32:29 <phantomcircuit> i think im just going to record trades as base_amount quote_amount fee_amount (fee_amount in terms of base_amount)
1016 2011-07-14 12:32:34 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya, just put in a note that all fractions are rounded in favor of the bank
1017 2011-07-14 12:32:35 <phantomcircuit> so i can calculate the actual rate later
1018 2011-07-14 12:32:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: werent there two commits?
1019 2011-07-14 12:33:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, but only one merge commit
1020 2011-07-14 12:33:23 BCBot has joined
1021 2011-07-14 12:33:24 <sipa> for both
1022 2011-07-14 12:33:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: odd, CIA typically posts them all I thought
1023 2011-07-14 12:33:43 <BlueMatt> the merge and all the commits
1024 2011-07-14 12:34:14 <sipa> i've found it to be quite inconsistent :)
1025 2011-07-14 12:34:23 <BlueMatt> clearly
1026 2011-07-14 12:34:25 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1027 2011-07-14 12:35:24 <sacarlson> can anyone verify they can see this site http://www.beertokens.info:2750/  that should have the block explorer for weeds visible
1028 2011-07-14 12:35:55 <phantomcircuit> i can but there's nothing there
1029 2011-07-14 12:36:06 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: nothing being ?
1030 2011-07-14 12:36:16 <sacarlson> time out?
1031 2011-07-14 12:36:17 <phantomcircuit> oh nvm there is
1032 2011-07-14 12:36:27 <phantomcircuit> it's working fine
1033 2011-07-14 12:36:30 <phantomcircuit> lfm, hmm
1034 2011-07-14 12:36:37 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: ok cool thanks
1035 2011-07-14 12:36:58 <phantomcircuit> lfm, rounding only occurs in the rate calculation currently, id rather not have the fees be built into the rounding
1036 2011-07-14 12:37:00 <sacarlson> it's using a branch of bitcoin-abe
1037 2011-07-14 12:37:01 <phantomcircuit> that's just shitty
1038 2011-07-14 12:37:02 <phantomcircuit> ;)
1039 2011-07-14 12:37:19 <prof7bit> also it should not be called BTC at all because BT is the country code of Bhutan. something starting with X would be better or maybe ZZ for unknown/invalid territory or XZ for international waters might be more appropriate ---> ZZB or XZB
1040 2011-07-14 12:37:41 <sipa> XBC :)
1041 2011-07-14 12:37:42 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, yeah but... convention ;)
1042 2011-07-14 12:37:50 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1043 2011-07-14 12:38:03 <sipa> also, europe is no nation either, yet there is a currency abbreviated as EUR
1044 2011-07-14 12:38:23 <UukGoblin> prof7bit, and Second Life Linden Dollars definitely shouldn't be called SLL, which is the code for Sierra Leone leones
1045 2011-07-14 12:38:34 <prof7bit> EU  <-- country code euRo <-- currency
1046 2011-07-14 12:38:36 <phantomcircuit> something tells me they wont be complaining anytime soon
1047 2011-07-14 12:38:41 <lfm> XZBTC
1048 2011-07-14 12:38:53 <phantomcircuit> lfm, 3 letter limit
1049 2011-07-14 12:38:56 <lfm> bah!
1050 2011-07-14 12:39:09 <UukGoblin> WOB
1051 2011-07-14 12:39:12 <UukGoblin> World / Bitcoin
1052 2011-07-14 12:39:24 <UukGoblin> or EAB
1053 2011-07-14 12:39:32 <moa7> XXX
1054 2011-07-14 12:39:40 <UukGoblin> I think we can safely assume other planets won't use the bitcoin blockchain because of delays
1055 2011-07-14 12:39:41 koleg has quit (work|2!~kvirc@89.151.191.66|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1056 2011-07-14 12:39:57 koleg has joined
1057 2011-07-14 12:40:08 <prof7bit> there is no country code for "world", the closest thing would be "international waters" or "invalid territory"
1058 2011-07-14 12:40:12 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, what? 10 minutes is more than enough
1059 2011-07-14 12:40:31 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, ok, maybe in Solar System..
1060 2011-07-14 12:40:36 <phantomcircuit> or we can keep using BTC because fuck the system!
1061 2011-07-14 12:40:38 <phantomcircuit> lulz
1062 2011-07-14 12:40:58 <UukGoblin> XBC was suggested or sth
1063 2011-07-14 12:41:14 <prof7bit> XBC is already used.
1064 2011-07-14 12:41:15 <lfm> phantomcircuit: I dont think 10 minutes gets you to mars if its on the far side of the sun
1065 2011-07-14 12:41:26 <prof7bit> maybe XBN  BitcoiN
1066 2011-07-14 12:41:28 <phantomcircuit> SELL BTC/GBP 10.0 @ 10.1lfmtrue
1067 2011-07-14 12:41:31 <phantomcircuit> er
1068 2011-07-14 12:41:32 <phantomcircuit> lfm, true
1069 2011-07-14 12:41:33 <prof7bit> ir XBI
1070 2011-07-14 12:42:12 <sipa> mars = max 400 million km = 44 min roundtrip time
1071 2011-07-14 12:42:14 <phantomcircuit> lol poker is fun
1072 2011-07-14 12:42:18 <UukGoblin> prof7bit, really? what's XBC?
1073 2011-07-14 12:42:21 <phantomcircuit> i just brow beat people into folding
1074 2011-07-14 12:42:45 <prof7bit> but it also should not collide with any elements of the periodic table when using "X"
1075 2011-07-14 12:43:16 <lfm> like au
1076 2011-07-14 12:43:25 BCBot has joined
1077 2011-07-14 12:43:27 <moa7> what's up with 3-letter codes ... comes from days of teletypes and 2K mem limits
1078 2011-07-14 12:43:28 <prof7bit> exactly.
1079 2011-07-14 12:43:43 <prof7bit> xau <-- spot gold
1080 2011-07-14 12:44:07 <lfm> moa7: ya, I thot XZBTC would be fine for the standards wonks
1081 2011-07-14 12:44:43 <prof7bit> they have only 6 bytes reserved in their monstrous java servers
1082 2011-07-14 12:44:44 <moa7> BTCH
1083 2011-07-14 12:44:56 <lfm> like that have to fit all their stuff onto 80 col punch card or something
1084 2011-07-14 12:45:19 <moa7> lol
1085 2011-07-14 12:45:33 <phantomcircuit> they probably do
1086 2011-07-14 12:45:49 <phantomcircuit> old systems like that will incorporate every technology used in any way over the past 30 years
1087 2011-07-14 12:45:54 <UukGoblin> we need to fit it on 80 col amphipod message line
1088 2011-07-14 12:46:07 <lfm> they lost to cobol code for international exchange back in 1984
1089 2011-07-14 12:46:13 <lfm> source
1090 2011-07-14 12:46:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
1091 2011-07-14 12:47:06 <phantomcircuit> citi groups intercountry internal clearing house uses shit from the early 80s
1092 2011-07-14 12:47:09 <phantomcircuit> it's a bad joke
1093 2011-07-14 12:50:23 zapnap has joined
1094 2011-07-14 12:50:40 DD- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1095 2011-07-14 12:50:53 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1096 2011-07-14 12:51:45 b4epoche_ has joined
1097 2011-07-14 12:51:54 <prof7bit> as long as it works its still ok and cheaper than reimplementing it by young programmers who cannot program anymore nowadays. cobol compilers still exist.
1098 2011-07-14 12:51:59 <Guest72992> Project Bitcoin-Test build #7: STILL FAILING in 7.4 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Test/7/
1099 2011-07-14 12:52:00 <Guest72992> * dev: Single DB transaction for all addresses in a message
1100 2011-07-14 12:52:00 <Guest72992> * dev: Single DB transaction for addresses from DNS seeds
1101 2011-07-14 12:52:49 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, i realized halfway through building this exchange that doing it in c++ would have been easier than python
1102 2011-07-14 12:52:52 <phantomcircuit> and i was shocked
1103 2011-07-14 12:53:03 DD- has joined
1104 2011-07-14 12:53:25 <prof7bit> C++ is not easier than *anything*. you must be making a mistake.
1105 2011-07-14 12:53:38 <phantomcircuit> there isn't a good heap implementation in python
1106 2011-07-14 12:54:01 <prof7bit> maybe itrs easier than brainfuck or perl but not much more
1107 2011-07-14 12:54:04 <phantomcircuit> and when you look at the language dealing with cheap pointers isn't possible
1108 2011-07-14 12:54:57 skeledrew has joined
1109 2011-07-14 12:54:59 <phantomcircuit> the heap implementation is based on sorting a list into a heap
1110 2011-07-14 12:55:02 <phantomcircuit> it's pretty weird
1111 2011-07-14 12:55:06 <lfm> APL?
1112 2011-07-14 12:55:30 <phantomcircuit> python
1113 2011-07-14 12:55:36 <lfm> you never heard of heapsort?
1114 2011-07-14 12:55:37 <prof7bit> Ada or Pascal maybe?
1115 2011-07-14 12:55:54 <phantomcircuit> lfm, heapsort is nice
1116 2011-07-14 12:55:57 <phantomcircuit> but i need an actual heap
1117 2011-07-14 12:56:10 <phantomcircuit> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Heap_(data_structure)
1118 2011-07-14 12:56:14 <UukGoblin> malbolge
1119 2011-07-14 12:56:16 <lfm> like a priority queue?
1120 2011-07-14 12:56:25 <prof7bit> Pascal for example has the same features as C++ but is orders of magnitudes less error prone and easier to read
1121 2011-07-14 12:56:27 <b4epoche> phantomcircuit:  you building an exchange?
1122 2011-07-14 12:56:27 <phantomcircuit> lfm, yes... but not a queue
1123 2011-07-14 12:56:39 <phantomcircuit> yes
1124 2011-07-14 12:56:42 <b4epoche> is it at all 'open' yet?
1125 2011-07-14 12:56:55 <phantomcircuit> not yet
1126 2011-07-14 12:57:10 <phantomcircuit> there isn't anything of interest really yet
1127 2011-07-14 12:57:25 <UukGoblin> prof7bit, pascal has a precompiler? or a templating engine?
1128 2011-07-14 12:57:35 <prof7bit> pascal has generics
1129 2011-07-14 12:57:36 <phantomcircuit> users/accounts/limit & market orders
1130 2011-07-14 12:57:46 <phantomcircuit> but i haven't finished the actual order matching yet
1131 2011-07-14 12:57:47 * UukGoblin played with borland pascal around 10 years ago
1132 2011-07-14 12:57:53 <b4epoche> I'm making a "Trader" edition of the OSX client that connects to exchanges for 'in-app' trading
1133 2011-07-14 12:57:54 <phantomcircuit> because i insisted on allowing inverted pairings
1134 2011-07-14 12:57:57 <phantomcircuit> which is making this like
1135 2011-07-14 12:58:01 <phantomcircuit> a million times harder
1136 2011-07-14 12:58:11 <UukGoblin> and it definitely didn't have all the features c++ had then
1137 2011-07-14 12:58:13 <UukGoblin> but srsly
1138 2011-07-14 12:58:16 <UukGoblin> malbolge
1139 2011-07-14 12:58:18 <UukGoblin> !
1140 2011-07-14 12:58:27 <UukGoblin> best. language. evarr
1141 2011-07-14 12:58:30 <prof7bit> 10 years is a long time. we have 2011 now
1142 2011-07-14 12:58:45 karnac has joined
1143 2011-07-14 12:59:08 <lfm> prof7bit: what version of pascal are you talking about?
1144 2011-07-14 12:59:10 <prof7bit> the free pascal compiler is developed rapidly and actively, about a dozen commits a day, each day
1145 2011-07-14 12:59:39 mmoya has joined
1146 2011-07-14 13:00:03 <prof7bit> 13 years development, 5 million lines of code, all major OS and architectures, huge standard library for all purposes
1147 2011-07-14 13:00:33 <lfm> prof7bit: ok so you're not talking about Wirth's original Pascal any more.
1148 2011-07-14 13:00:40 <prof7bit> no. its 2011
1149 2011-07-14 13:00:53 <UukGoblin> really?
1150 2011-07-14 13:00:55 <lfm> because I knew it
1151 2011-07-14 13:00:57 * UukGoblin checks on his wristwatch
1152 2011-07-14 13:00:58 <prof7bit> noboy is using 1980 C also
1153 2011-07-14 13:01:00 <b4epoche> Fortran77 ftw!
1154 2011-07-14 13:01:35 <UukGoblin> malbolge
1155 2011-07-14 13:01:41 <UukGoblin> the one and only
1156 2011-07-14 13:01:57 <prof7bit> all are referring to what gcc does nowadays when talking about C++, so I am refering to FPC when referring to Pascal. Older versions are history.
1157 2011-07-14 13:03:17 <lfm> I guess I shouldnt try to claim I can program pascal any more.
1158 2011-07-14 13:03:25 <prof7bit> we have generics, we have interfaces, we have reference counted strings or arbitrary size, etc.
1159 2011-07-14 13:03:42 <phantomcircuit> SELL GBP/BTC 10 @ 0.1 SELL BTC/GBP 10 @ 10.0
1160 2011-07-14 13:03:47 <phantomcircuit> like those orders perfectly match
1161 2011-07-14 13:04:42 <lfm> is that 10 btc or 10 gbp?
1162 2011-07-14 13:05:11 <phantomcircuit> 2 orders
1163 2011-07-14 13:05:25 <phantomcircuit> selling 10 GBP for BTC 0.1 BTC per GBP
1164 2011-07-14 13:05:38 <prof7bit> lfm: your old pascal knowledge is not lost. you can still use it. the language was extended in such a way that it did not break anything and not destroy the simplicity and elegance.
1165 2011-07-14 13:05:39 <phantomcircuit> selling 10 BTC for GBP 10 GBP per BTC
1166 2011-07-14 13:05:41 cygnus2112 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1167 2011-07-14 13:06:05 <prof7bit> it all fits seamlessly into the language
1168 2011-07-14 13:06:23 <prof7bit> it feels completely natural
1169 2011-07-14 13:06:42 <phantomcircuit> lol
1170 2011-07-14 13:06:50 <phantomcircuit> lfm, see what im saying though about the rates?
1171 2011-07-14 13:07:11 <phantomcircuit> you convert the earlier one to a buy and fulfill them
1172 2011-07-14 13:07:33 <lfm> phantom ya the rates match but the amounts dont seem to match, wouldnt on of the amounts be 1 and the other 10?
1173 2011-07-14 13:08:03 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1174 2011-07-14 13:08:09 <phantomcircuit> whatever partial matches
1175 2011-07-14 13:08:14 <lfm> ok
1176 2011-07-14 13:08:20 <phantomcircuit> you cant have a non partial order in the orderbook anyways,
1177 2011-07-14 13:08:32 <phantomcircuit> FOK/IOC/GTC
1178 2011-07-14 13:09:20 <phantomcircuit> oh did i mention suports FOK/IOC?
1179 2011-07-14 13:09:49 <lfm> international olympic commitee?
1180 2011-07-14 13:10:22 <phantomcircuit> immediate or cancel
1181 2011-07-14 13:10:53 <lfm> oh, nice, i guess.
1182 2011-07-14 13:11:06 agricocb has joined
1183 2011-07-14 13:11:22 <phantomcircuit> so you can place a "market" order with a limit
1184 2011-07-14 13:11:28 mrtn has left ()
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1186 2011-07-14 13:11:48 <UukGoblin> hm, btw, can anyone sensibly read the whole output of "free"?
1187 2011-07-14 13:11:56 <b4epoche> phantomcircuit:  when you get up and running let me know so I can integrate your api into my app
1188 2011-07-14 13:12:02 <prof7bit> and if you are looking for a nice IDE / RAD-tool for pascal be sure to check out Lazarus (the windows download of Lazarus already comes bundled completely with compiler, debugger and everything in a simple setup.exe->next->next->finish, on the other platforms you install the compiler separately)
1189 2011-07-14 13:12:08 <UukGoblin> it reports buffers and cache on the first line, then on the second line, all the figures are different, and none of them add up
1190 2011-07-14 13:12:36 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1192 2011-07-14 13:12:57 <prof7bit> Note to C++ users: don't do that or you might lose interest in C++ within 2 weeks exposure to Lazarus/FPC
1193 2011-07-14 13:13:20 <phantomcircuit> windows
1194 2011-07-14 13:13:24 <phantomcircuit> is this some kind of joke?
1195 2011-07-14 13:13:33 <phantomcircuit> gtfo
1196 2011-07-14 13:13:35 <prof7bit> same warning for Java / Netbeans fans
1197 2011-07-14 13:13:49 <phantomcircuit> <-- notepad
1198 2011-07-14 13:13:52 Nexus7 has quit ()
1199 2011-07-14 13:14:03 AnatolV has joined
1200 2011-07-14 13:14:05 * sipa likes multiplayer notepas
1201 2011-07-14 13:14:07 * sipa likes multiplayer notepad
1202 2011-07-14 13:14:16 <lfm> A fine editor so long as you dont want to edit more than 64 k
1203 2011-07-14 13:14:18 FellowTraveler has joined
1204 2011-07-14 13:14:19 <phantomcircuit> piratpad
1205 2011-07-14 13:14:28 <phantomcircuit> ok i lied
1206 2011-07-14 13:14:30 <phantomcircuit> gedit
1207 2011-07-14 13:14:37 <prof7bit> phantomcircuit: please elaborate on the "joke" thing, i don't get your point.
1208 2011-07-14 13:14:43 <lfm> sed?
1209 2011-07-14 13:14:58 <sipa> sed is a stream editor
1210 2011-07-14 13:14:58 <phantomcircuit> BUTTERFLY WINGS
1211 2011-07-14 13:15:05 <sipa> if you want to edit files, use ed
1212 2011-07-14 13:15:16 <justmoon> phantomcircuit, default color scheme? (gedit "classic")
1213 2011-07-14 13:15:20 <sipa> or a steady hand and a magnetic needle
1214 2011-07-14 13:15:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ++
1215 2011-07-14 13:15:42 <lfm> edlin?
1216 2011-07-14 13:16:04 * sipa invokes xkcd 378
1217 2011-07-14 13:16:34 <phantomcircuit> lol i really suck at poker
1218 2011-07-14 13:16:42 <phantomcircuit> i cant do even basic arithmetic in my head
1219 2011-07-14 13:18:01 hvala has joined
1220 2011-07-14 13:19:19 <phantomcircuit> so anyways
1221 2011-07-14 13:19:21 <phantomcircuit> like i was saying
1222 2011-07-14 13:19:41 <phantomcircuit> SELL GBP/BTC 10 @ 0.1
1223 2011-07-14 13:19:47 <phantomcircuit> SELL BTC/GBP 0.1 @ 10.0
1224 2011-07-14 13:19:53 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1225 2011-07-14 13:19:54 <gribble> 136241
1226 2011-07-14 13:20:18 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
1227 2011-07-14 13:20:22 <phantomcircuit> the rate is inverted in 1 and the same in the other
1228 2011-07-14 13:20:45 <phantomcircuit> so i cant record the actual rate in the "native" pairing for both orders
1229 2011-07-14 13:20:51 <phantomcircuit> which is more than a little annoying
1230 2011-07-14 13:20:53 <prof7bit> you are introducing confusion into the game
1231 2011-07-14 13:21:07 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1232 2011-07-14 13:21:59 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, yes but the normal use case for "normal" users is to either sell all their fiat or sell all their btc
1233 2011-07-14 13:22:05 <prof7bit> a trader only wants to have to do with either XXXYYY or YYYXXX but not be confused by mixing these
1234 2011-07-14 13:22:11 <phantomcircuit> with a single pairing we couldn't do both
1235 2011-07-14 13:22:16 magn3ts has joined
1236 2011-07-14 13:22:53 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, see the problem?
1237 2011-07-14 13:23:16 <lfm> also a trader will accept an exchange which is BETTER than what he asked for
1238 2011-07-14 13:23:19 <prof7bit> I am trading a lot of EURUSD (for fun and profit) and i never even *think* about a hypothetical USDEUR
1239 2011-07-14 13:23:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah but you're trading with quotes right?
1240 2011-07-14 13:24:16 <phantomcircuit> without quotes you're stuck just guessing
1241 2011-07-14 13:24:28 <prof7bit> yes. The EURUSD quotes as quoted by my broker. I never needed an USDEUR quote for anything.
1242 2011-07-14 13:24:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah but i mean you have a quote, so you can calculate the exact amount of USD you get by selling an amount of EUR
1243 2011-07-14 13:24:56 <phantomcircuit> and vice versa
1244 2011-07-14 13:25:02 <phantomcircuit> without quotes you cant do that
1245 2011-07-14 13:26:19 <prof7bit> i don't sell USD for Euros ;-) I only have dollars
1246 2011-07-14 13:26:36 <prof7bit> but i might buy euros and sell them again
1247 2011-07-14 13:26:47 <prof7bit> or borrow them and sell even more
1248 2011-07-14 13:27:11 <lfm> so usd is your base currency
1249 2011-07-14 13:27:43 <lfm> and you might be trading with someone whose base currency is eur but it doesnt really matter
1250 2011-07-14 13:27:44 <prof7bit> its my account currency and i only think in terms of dollars whenever I log into my platform
1251 2011-07-14 13:28:48 <phantomcircuit> yes but you can only do that because you're dealing with quotes
1252 2011-07-14 13:29:02 <phantomcircuit> if you where placing orders directly on an exchange you would have to worry about it
1253 2011-07-14 13:29:40 <phantomcircuit> or am i missing something here?
1254 2011-07-14 13:29:43 <phantomcircuit> i dont think i am
1255 2011-07-14 13:29:45 tower has joined
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1257 2011-07-14 13:30:51 <coderrr> has anyone compiled a 32bit client on 64bit linux ?
1258 2011-07-14 13:31:06 <prof7bit> the allowable volumes are quoted only in terms of one of the currencies, in EUR in this case. if i place an order i either buy or sell X EUR (in exchange for dollars). I dont place orders to buy or sell y dollars for euros.
1259 2011-07-14 13:31:50 <phantomcircuit> yes but you know the rate
1260 2011-07-14 13:32:04 <phantomcircuit> so you *can* calculate it
1261 2011-07-14 13:32:09 <prof7bit> i know how many UR it is by simply counting the euros i hold and i know how many dollars it would be by looking at the current quote.
1262 2011-07-14 13:32:14 <prof7bit> EUR
1263 2011-07-14 13:32:14 <forrestv> how does the testnet-in-a-box work?
1264 2011-07-14 13:32:15 <phantomcircuit> x EUR * y rate = z USD
1265 2011-07-14 13:32:23 <forrestv> how does it keep the difficulty low with a stock client?
1266 2011-07-14 13:32:28 <phantomcircuit> since y is quoted it's fixed and you can solve for x
1267 2011-07-14 13:32:50 <phantomcircuit> but on a fluid exchange you couldn't do that
1268 2011-07-14 13:32:59 <phantomcircuit> you'd be guessing, hoping to hit a moving target
1269 2011-07-14 13:33:19 <prof7bit> if i have one lot then this is 100000 eur. no need for calculting here, i see it directly. if I want to know the dollars then I simply multiply with the quote.
1270 2011-07-14 13:33:34 <phantomcircuit> exactly
1271 2011-07-14 13:33:47 <phantomcircuit> if you where placing that order directly with an exchange you would not have a quote
1272 2011-07-14 13:33:53 <phantomcircuit> just a limit
1273 2011-07-14 13:33:57 <phantomcircuit> make sense?
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1275 2011-07-14 13:34:48 <prof7bit> i would for example say buy 1 Lot @ 1.3800 or i would say sell 1 Lot @ 1.4300
1276 2011-07-14 13:35:08 <phantomcircuit> yes
1277 2011-07-14 13:35:09 <prof7bit> Lot is always EUR, the quote is always USD
1278 2011-07-14 13:35:19 <phantomcircuit> but you're buying at *exactly* that amount, because you have a quote
1279 2011-07-14 13:35:33 AndyBr has joined
1280 2011-07-14 13:35:35 <prof7bit> you can't mix this in the same orderbook
1281 2011-07-14 13:35:43 <phantomcircuit> but if instead you placed an order on the actual exchange you would get your rate or better
1282 2011-07-14 13:36:56 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, lol see what im saying though?
1283 2011-07-14 13:37:16 <phantomcircuit> the features that traders want are directly counter to the basic operations that normal users want
1284 2011-07-14 13:37:24 <prof7bit> Not really sure. You still have the resulting average quote in USD always and never in EUR
1285 2011-07-14 13:37:38 magn3ts has joined
1286 2011-07-14 13:37:57 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, ok lets try this another way
1287 2011-07-14 13:38:10 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, you have some EUR and need USD to fill a short
1288 2011-07-14 13:38:21 <prof7bit> you must decide for one of the two options. either run the orderbook and the quotes and the charts in XXX/YYY or do it in YYY/XXX
1289 2011-07-14 13:38:30 Blitzboom has joined
1290 2011-07-14 13:38:35 <phantomcircuit> you go to your broker and get a quote, then you solve for how much EUR you have to sell to cover the short, right?
1291 2011-07-14 13:39:24 <phantomcircuit> but what if you *cant* get a quote?
1292 2011-07-14 13:39:32 <phantomcircuit> you can *only* place an order
1293 2011-07-14 13:39:58 <phantomcircuit> get what im saying?
1294 2011-07-14 13:40:09 <prof7bit> i can say here I have 1 Lot of EUR, sell them for USD at this dollar price. or I say i need 1 Lot of EUR buy than at that dollar price. i'm always using the dollar price.
1295 2011-07-14 13:40:28 <phantomcircuit> yeah i get that
1296 2011-07-14 13:41:01 <phantomcircuit> what im saying is that doing it that way limits the accuracy of trying to exchange EUR for USD
1297 2011-07-14 13:41:36 <prof7bit> or I would say here i have 1 BTC, sell them at x$ or buy 1BTC at x$ but not buy x$ at yBTC
1298 2011-07-14 13:42:25 <phantomcircuit> yes
1299 2011-07-14 13:42:40 <phantomcircuit> which means if you have to cover a short, you're forced to over shoot it right
1300 2011-07-14 13:43:03 <prof7bit> it would create confusion and rounding errors and odd lot sizes in the order book. thats why it is never done.
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1302 2011-07-14 13:45:28 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, rounding errors would be limited to 1 pip on the rate
1303 2011-07-14 13:45:35 <phantomcircuit> but yeah i see your point
1304 2011-07-14 13:45:45 <prof7bit> the problem with being able to cover shorts (or related things) before bad things happen in a thin market is only relevant if the market is thin and bad things might happen
1305 2011-07-14 13:46:31 <prof7bit> and if you are borrowing money (leverage)
1306 2011-07-14 13:47:52 <prof7bit> this might end in a disaster, either for the trader or for the dealer, depending on what is written in your contract
1307 2011-07-14 13:48:57 <prof7bit> but it might still need a while until we see leveraged bitcoin trading.
1308 2011-07-14 13:49:49 <prof7bit> the first few experiments in this direction might  surely be funny to watch (from a distance)
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1313 2011-07-14 13:54:28 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, heh
1314 2011-07-14 13:55:11 <prof7bit> if a dealer tries to hedge his exposure to millions of leveraged bitcoins in the spot market
1315 2011-07-14 13:55:11 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1316 2011-07-14 13:56:01 <phantomcircuit> anyways the first thing most people do is try and sell all of their bitcoins
1317 2011-07-14 13:56:09 <phantomcircuit> or use all their fiat to buy bitcoins
1318 2011-07-14 13:56:26 <phantomcircuit> there's no way to cover both angles with a normal system without lots of guessing
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1324 2011-07-14 13:59:49 <prof7bit> you generally cannot predict exactly what happens in a market if you start buying or selling non-trivial amounts. other participants will see this and react to it by placing/canceling their own orders. you can only guess when looking at the orderbook before you place an order.
1325 2011-07-14 14:00:57 <moa7> wisdom of the crowd
1326 2011-07-14 14:01:29 <moa7> or mob mentality?
1327 2011-07-14 14:02:11 <Eliel_> both? :D
1328 2011-07-14 14:02:56 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1329 2011-07-14 14:03:27 <moa7> a capricious beast
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1335 2011-07-14 14:15:32 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, hmm i guess
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1350 2011-07-14 14:42:29 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, balls i dont know what to do now
1351 2011-07-14 14:42:38 <phantomcircuit> i could modify this to be a normal forex exchange easily
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1355 2011-07-14 14:47:57 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, you still there?
1356 2011-07-14 14:48:33 <prof7bit> sorry, was inside my IDE...
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1360 2011-07-14 14:49:12 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, so which would you vote for GBP/BTC or BTC/GBP
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1362 2011-07-14 14:49:28 <phantomcircuit> im just going to bite the bullet and move this all to a normal exchange format
1363 2011-07-14 14:49:46 <phantomcircuit> and implement the behavior in the ui to approximate buy/sell of the quote
1364 2011-07-14 14:51:03 <phantomcircuit> i guess BTC/GBP
1365 2011-07-14 14:51:06 <phantomcircuit> just to be cheaky
1366 2011-07-14 14:51:09 <phantomcircuit> cheeky
1367 2011-07-14 14:51:46 <prof7bit> i would vote for BTCGBP (price of BTC quoted in GBP), just to not confuse the users. Maybe you find a way to implement the other side (or some easy to use calculator) in some easy to understand way later
1368 2011-07-14 14:51:48 <Joric> dear mother of god, bitcoinj has 6 megabytes of ec2 related sources
1369 2011-07-14 14:52:03 <Joric> i only wrote like 50 lines
1370 2011-07-14 14:52:07 <TD> ec2?
1371 2011-07-14 14:52:15 klikklak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1372 2011-07-14 14:52:29 <TD> you mean ecdsa right
1373 2011-07-14 14:52:31 <Joric> i used reference i2d_ECPrivateKey/i2o_ECPublicKey implementation
1374 2011-07-14 14:52:55 <TD> bitcoinj includes a complete copy of the bouncy castle library
1375 2011-07-14 14:53:02 <Joric> there's nothing special really, python supports big numbers out of the box
1376 2011-07-14 14:53:05 <TD> it might be taken out in favor of shading the library at compile time
1377 2011-07-14 14:53:15 <Joric> yeah, probably
1378 2011-07-14 14:53:32 <TD> i don't see your point though. including the whole crypto library is easier and better than reimplementing the ECDSA algorithms
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1384 2011-07-14 14:59:02 <mmartian_> ;;bc,stats
1385 2011-07-14 14:59:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136255 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 832 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1655426.95092866
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1409 2011-07-14 15:30:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you're around, can you try to probe me again? I yelled at my ISP...
1410 2011-07-14 15:31:27 * nanotube probes gmaxwell 
1411 2011-07-14 15:31:29 <nanotube> hehe
1412 2011-07-14 15:31:46 <BlueMatt> probing...
1413 2011-07-14 15:31:57 <BlueMatt> Connection timed out
1414 2011-07-14 15:32:14 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1415 2011-07-14 15:32:16 <gmaxwell> alas. Okay.
1416 2011-07-14 15:32:31 <BlueMatt> nope, bumped connection time out, and its back to the same as before
1417 2011-07-14 15:32:34 <nanotube> i can try telneting to you to port 8333 gmaxwell if you like
1418 2011-07-14 15:32:36 <BlueMatt> no packets after syn ack
1419 2011-07-14 15:32:45 <phantomcircuit> IMA PROBE THE SHIT OUT OF... er nvm
1420 2011-07-14 15:32:48 AnatolV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1421 2011-07-14 15:33:54 <BlueMatt> oh now its working...
1422 2011-07-14 15:34:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ???
1423 2011-07-14 15:34:06 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1424 2011-07-14 15:34:46 Burgundy has joined
1425 2011-07-14 15:35:21 <gmaxwell> Yea, its still falling over when there are high numbers of connections. I bumped everyone off, and capped it down. oh well. more investigation later.
1426 2011-07-14 15:35:43 evelyn66 has joined
1427 2011-07-14 15:35:44 <BlueMatt> m have fun
1428 2011-07-14 15:35:45 traviscj has joined
1429 2011-07-14 15:35:47 <BlueMatt> maybe its your patches?
1430 2011-07-14 15:36:28 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1431 2011-07-14 15:36:57 <gmaxwell> Anything is possible.
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1435 2011-07-14 15:38:43 <prof7bit> the client should allow incoming local p2p connections even if it has already max connections to other peers (to make testing easier)
1436 2011-07-14 15:38:47 <gmaxwell> er, well, I know its not bitcoin itself because I can succesfully connect to it all day long locally.
1437 2011-07-14 15:39:00 <BlueMatt> mmm
1438 2011-07-14 15:39:10 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: to make DOS attack easier, you mean? :)
1439 2011-07-14 15:39:34 <prof7bit> dos attack on my own pc, me attacking myself?
1440 2011-07-14 15:40:19 <prof7bit> i want my client to connect the official client but it wont let me in because it is full already.
1441 2011-07-14 15:40:31 pipo22 has joined
1442 2011-07-14 15:41:15 <prof7bit> i am not at the point where i can test it against other people's clients in the network, i just want it to connect my own client
1443 2011-07-14 15:42:19 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: then run a node thats firwalled off from inbound connections (and perhaps isolated) for that purpose. If you're testing something new you should really test against testnet instead.
1444 2011-07-14 15:43:00 <prof7bit> i need something that will bombard me with inv messages now, testnet is too quiet.
1445 2011-07-14 15:43:35 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1446 2011-07-14 15:44:45 Tim-7967 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1447 2011-07-14 15:46:11 <dikidera> i've been thinking of how to do it and it almost seems impossible
1448 2011-07-14 15:46:23 <dikidera> each thread on a cpu miner to work on the same getwork
1449 2011-07-14 15:46:39 pnicholson has quit (Quit: cya later!)
1450 2011-07-14 15:46:56 reQunix has joined
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1452 2011-07-14 15:47:21 <dikidera> every possible piece of code i think about, in the end doesnt seem like it will work like how i want it
1453 2011-07-14 15:47:43 <b4epoche> why is anyone thinking about cpu  mining?
1454 2011-07-14 15:47:51 <dikidera> anything better to do?
1455 2011-07-14 15:48:20 <b4epoche> I've got plenty better to do…  but maybe you don't ;-)
1456 2011-07-14 15:50:15 <dikidera> deja vu...
1457 2011-07-14 15:50:16 Joric has joined
1458 2011-07-14 15:50:41 <dikidera> i've probably done this in a parallel universe already...
1459 2011-07-14 15:51:04 <Joric> i accidentaly the whole wallet
1460 2011-07-14 15:51:17 <denisx> so, poclbm will be fixed in the next release to show stats correctly with diff-2
1461 2011-07-14 15:51:46 <Joric> looks like 0.3.25 goes to infinite loop if both 'skey' and 'key' are presented
1462 2011-07-14 15:51:53 <dikidera> heehaw
1463 2011-07-14 15:52:01 <dikidera> Son, i am disappoint
1464 2011-07-14 15:52:01 <BlueMatt> Joric: there is no such thing as a skey
1465 2011-07-14 15:52:07 <BlueMatt> dikidera: stfu
1466 2011-07-14 15:52:08 <Joric> ckey, whatever
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1468 2011-07-14 15:52:19 <BlueMatt> Joric: no, it returns null, or should...
1469 2011-07-14 15:52:28 <BlueMatt> uh, false sorry
1470 2011-07-14 15:53:04 <Joric> had to add version checking to avoid accidentaly the whole wallet in the future
1471 2011-07-14 15:53:25 <BlueMatt> "to avoid accidentaly the whole wallet" makes no sense
1472 2011-07-14 15:53:30 Nexus7 has quit ()
1473 2011-07-14 15:53:35 <BlueMatt> and there already is version checking
1474 2011-07-14 15:53:36 Katapult has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1475 2011-07-14 15:53:41 <dikidera> denisx:i found that doing diff 2 shares results in a few percent more hashes, which are sent to bitcoinD via pushpool
1476 2011-07-14 15:54:08 <BlueMatt> lol
1477 2011-07-14 15:54:15 <dikidera> *few percent more hashes, which meet the conditions to be sent to bitcoin
1478 2011-07-14 15:54:22 <BlueMatt> lol
1479 2011-07-14 15:54:24 <dikidera> compared to doing diff-1
1480 2011-07-14 15:54:29 <BlueMatt> lol
1481 2011-07-14 15:54:32 <denisx> dikidera: no, impossible
1482 2011-07-14 15:54:36 <dikidera> i guarantee it
1483 2011-07-14 15:54:39 <BlueMatt> lol
1484 2011-07-14 15:54:58 <denisx> dikidera: ok, then join my pool and hash there! ;)
1485 2011-07-14 15:55:10 ewal has joined
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1487 2011-07-14 15:56:54 <BlueMatt> Joric: can you provide more info, there is no infinite loop possibility (there is no loop) in loading ckeys or keys
1488 2011-07-14 15:57:01 <denisx> dikidera: and if you bring in 5GH/s I will start a diff-4 port for you! ;)
1489 2011-07-14 15:57:46 m00p has joined
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1491 2011-07-14 15:59:04 <BlueMatt> at that rate, you should be mining at real diff, get a couple blocks/sec
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1496 2011-07-14 16:06:05 <Joric> BlueMatt, http://pastebin.com/eT4mrkbv don't know what i've done but it refuses to load with that wallet, eats 0% cpu and just hangs there
1497 2011-07-14 16:06:36 <BlueMatt> can you give a bitcointools dump?
1498 2011-07-14 16:07:00 <Joric> hang on
1499 2011-07-14 16:07:53 <Joric> http://pastebin.com/7uMLi6Ps
1500 2011-07-14 16:08:49 <Joric> note the unencrypted key in the beginning
1501 2011-07-14 16:09:22 <BlueMatt> is that the latest bitcoin?
1502 2011-07-14 16:09:28 <Joric> nightly build
1503 2011-07-14 16:09:29 <BlueMatt> bitcointools
1504 2011-07-14 16:09:32 <BlueMatt> sorry
1505 2011-07-14 16:09:34 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1506 2011-07-14 16:09:47 <Joric> bitcointools are fresh
1507 2011-07-14 16:10:01 <BlueMatt> oh gavin did a different addrIncoming handling...
1508 2011-07-14 16:10:29 <BlueMatt> yea that will fail to load but it will return...
1509 2011-07-14 16:10:37 <BlueMatt> (unless something broke during merge)
1510 2011-07-14 16:11:09 <Joric> do you mind if i'll send this wallet.dat to you, it's unused
1511 2011-07-14 16:11:22 <moa7> sipa: fwiw, 0.3.25 on ubuntu 11.04 wxWidgets 2.9.2 doesn't need patch that 2.9.1 did
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1513 2011-07-14 16:13:46 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  I'm feeling like doing some rebasing…  can you help?  and I promise I'll take notes this time
1514 2011-07-14 16:14:02 <BlueMatt> you mean onto master?
1515 2011-07-14 16:14:04 <Joric> BlueMatt, the wallet http://goo.gl/GS6ZZ
1516 2011-07-14 16:14:17 <BlueMatt> Joric: testnet?
1517 2011-07-14 16:14:22 <b4epoche> well, whatever the latest (semi-)stable version is
1518 2011-07-14 16:14:41 <Joric> no it's not testnet
1519 2011-07-14 16:14:48 <Joric> just newly created
1520 2011-07-14 16:14:56 <BlueMatt> m whatever
1521 2011-07-14 16:15:02 <BlueMatt> how did you make it?
1522 2011-07-14 16:15:26 <Joric> imported an unencrypted key entry in bitcointools
1523 2011-07-14 16:17:17 TheZimm has joined
1524 2011-07-14 16:17:20 <BlueMatt> Joric: nope master for me just closes with a "Load wallet failed..."
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1526 2011-07-14 16:17:29 <Joric> okay then
1527 2011-07-14 16:17:40 <BlueMatt> (as it should)
1528 2011-07-14 16:18:25 <BlueMatt> ah, actually, I see...
1529 2011-07-14 16:18:35 <BlueMatt> yep wires got crossed and stuff that wasnt rebased was merged
1530 2011-07-14 16:18:36 <Joric> oh btw did you cut out that double instance checking on win32? it's pretty much dated
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1535 2011-07-14 16:19:52 <Joric> BlueMatt, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/init.cpp line 308 until #endif, should be removed imo
1536 2011-07-14 16:19:55 <BlueMatt> Joric: sipa https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/413
1537 2011-07-14 16:20:29 <BlueMatt> Joric: ???
1538 2011-07-14 16:21:15 <BlueMatt> Joric: dont think anyone has bothered to look to deep, submit a pull redhatzero q
1539 2011-07-14 16:21:18 <BlueMatt> req*
1540 2011-07-14 16:21:28 <Joric> BlueMatt, that single instance check is older than the lock file code, the whole block is obsolete
1541 2011-07-14 16:21:46 <BlueMatt> does the lock file stuff work on win32?
1542 2011-07-14 16:21:55 vrs has quit (Client Quit)
1543 2011-07-14 16:22:19 <Joric> yes i've tried it on the same datadir, it says locked or something like that
1544 2011-07-14 16:22:28 <BlueMatt> on winxp?
1545 2011-07-14 16:22:34 sgornick has joined
1546 2011-07-14 16:22:46 <Joric> well... on win7
1547 2011-07-14 16:23:03 koleg has joined
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1551 2011-07-14 16:25:04 <Joric> it's currently an issue 75 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/75
1552 2011-07-14 16:25:23 <BlueMatt> so submit a pull reqeust
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1555 2011-07-14 16:25:36 <BlueMatt> and check that it works on xp
1556 2011-07-14 16:25:45 <BlueMatt> (obviously googling the relevant locking code works too)
1557 2011-07-14 16:26:07 <BlueMatt> afternoon jgarzik
1558 2011-07-14 16:27:53 redhatzero has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1560 2011-07-14 16:29:14 <FellowTraveler> I have realized some of the custom things I want to do will require doing Bitcoin/blockchain calls from within my own C++ code
1561 2011-07-14 16:29:19 <FellowTraveler> can the BTC client be used as a lib?
1562 2011-07-14 16:29:24 <BlueMatt> no
1563 2011-07-14 16:29:25 <FellowTraveler> or is there some preferable lib?
1564 2011-07-14 16:29:32 <FellowTraveler> or just copy some code if I need it?
1565 2011-07-14 16:29:35 * jgarzik waves
1566 2011-07-14 16:30:09 <jgarzik> FellowTraveler: you can always do that :)
1567 2011-07-14 16:30:24 <BlueMatt> FellowTraveler: well there is an effort to clean up the code to make it useable as a lib, but not really good to do it yet
1568 2011-07-14 16:30:24 <Joric> just modify bitcoind or something
1569 2011-07-14 16:30:39 <FellowTraveler> BlueMatt who is in charge of that effort?
1570 2011-07-14 16:30:47 <BlueMatt> FellowTraveler: anyone coding on it...
1571 2011-07-14 16:30:50 <BlueMatt> which atm I think is just me
1572 2011-07-14 16:31:13 <BlueMatt> But I think JS might be doing other stuff soon too
1573 2011-07-14 16:31:20 <BlueMatt> (judging by his post on the mailing list)
1574 2011-07-14 16:31:59 <FellowTraveler> Basically I need to be able to send and receive bitcoin payments INSIDE the C++.  And the important part is a customized piece of bitcoind that does payments to multiple parties (like escrow, where the parties vote to release funds)
1575 2011-07-14 16:32:08 <FellowTraveler> that's why I need it inside my server code
1576 2011-07-14 16:32:11 <Joric> though i afraid bitcoind is linked with wxwidgets aswell
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1578 2011-07-14 16:32:22 <BlueMatt> Joric: no its not
1579 2011-07-14 16:32:30 <FellowTraveler> so people can bail their bitcoins in/out of an OT server, but it's really bailed into escrow voting pool, so you don't have to trust the server.
1580 2011-07-14 16:33:02 <FellowTraveler> for me to accomplish that, I need to be able to send/receive inside my own code.  Can you give me a stripped down piece of code that does that.
1581 2011-07-14 16:33:07 <FellowTraveler> like, the minimum I would need to include?
1582 2011-07-14 16:33:13 <BlueMatt> you could do that
1583 2011-07-14 16:33:22 <BlueMatt> if you want to copy/paste code which is probably the easiest
1584 2011-07-14 16:33:32 <FellowTraveler> well I can paste a function in, if that's all it will take
1585 2011-07-14 16:33:47 <b4epoche> why not RPC?
1586 2011-07-14 16:33:50 <BlueMatt> no, bitcoin doesnt generate escrow txes
1587 2011-07-14 16:33:53 <BlueMatt> so youll have to code it
1588 2011-07-14 16:33:57 skeledrew has joined
1589 2011-07-14 16:34:02 <FellowTraveler> but if stuff needs to be sectioned off into lib form, or headers need to be fixed up or whatever, that's the part I don't know that much
1590 2011-07-14 16:34:04 <BlueMatt> or do escrow anything
1591 2011-07-14 16:34:17 <FellowTraveler> don't worry about the escrow part, I just need basic send/receive inside my C++ code
1592 2011-07-14 16:34:37 ThomasV has joined
1593 2011-07-14 16:34:50 <FellowTraveler> I will do the escrow no prob after that is working.
1594 2011-07-14 16:35:09 <BlueMatt> shouldnt be harder than calling a committransaction function or two
1595 2011-07-14 16:35:11 <b4epoche> I'm not sure why RPC wouldn't be a good solution for FellowTraveler
1596 2011-07-14 16:35:27 <b4epoche> although I have to admit that I really know little about the details of RPC
1597 2011-07-14 16:35:34 erus` has joined
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1599 2011-07-14 16:35:54 <FellowTraveler> b4epoche the reason is because once I have the basic send/receive inside my code, I'm going to modify it to do my special escrow / low trust servers / voting pool thing.
1600 2011-07-14 16:35:59 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: you cant use rpc to do with w/o modifying rpc
1601 2011-07-14 16:36:27 <FellowTraveler> I have a whole protocol figured out and it involves a modified version of BTC.
1602 2011-07-14 16:36:52 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1603 2011-07-14 16:37:24 <b4epoche> oh, I just thought you needed it bitcoind as send/receive 'engine' with you doing the splitting and stuff elsewhere
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1605 2011-07-14 16:37:47 <denisx> is there anywhere explaind how this feestuff works. it seems non-deterministic
1606 2011-07-14 16:38:49 <b4epoche> there's a random number generator in there to determine fees
1607 2011-07-14 16:39:28 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1609 2011-07-14 16:40:34 <BlueMatt> lol
1610 2011-07-14 16:40:57 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r3a10d1c / src/db.cpp : Fix bad return values in LoadWallet. - http://bit.ly/qYKNpC https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/3a10d1c49390f26daed14d6362f72c154ac191e7
1611 2011-07-14 16:40:58 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r065d743 / src/db.cpp : Merge pull request #413 from TheBlueMatt/loadwalletret ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/065d74301990d6cfce35ca3a6be264d0b975619b
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1615 2011-07-14 16:42:37 <BlueMatt> denisx: its very deterministic, its on the wiki
1616 2011-07-14 16:42:59 nhodges has joined
1617 2011-07-14 16:43:16 <denisx> BlueMatt: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
1618 2011-07-14 16:43:18 <denisx> this one?
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1620 2011-07-14 16:46:33 <kinlo> how long does it takes for the mac bitcoin client to be built?
1621 2011-07-14 16:48:10 <b4epoche> for-friggin-ever
1622 2011-07-14 16:48:40 <b4epoche> you using makefile?
1623 2011-07-14 16:48:46 <FellowTraveler> it would be super fast if written in D
1624 2011-07-14 16:48:59 topace has joined
1625 2011-07-14 16:49:04 <b4epoche> or E or F
1626 2011-07-14 16:49:06 <Marf> or E
1627 2011-07-14 16:49:08 <Marf> ;D
1628 2011-07-14 16:49:13 <prof7bit> It LIVES!!!  http://imagebin.org/163105   <--  (4 days coding and now the *second* test run and it works already)
1629 2011-07-14 16:49:17 <FellowTraveler> laugh all you want, D is badass and it compiles way faster.
1630 2011-07-14 16:49:35 <FellowTraveler> prof7bit congrats.
1631 2011-07-14 16:50:23 <b4epoche> pascal?
1632 2011-07-14 16:50:36 maikmerten has joined
1633 2011-07-14 16:50:46 <prof7bit> yes. of course. what else?
1634 2011-07-14 16:50:49 <prof7bit> lol
1635 2011-07-14 16:50:50 <denisx> BlueMatt: except that the wiki is outdated
1636 2011-07-14 16:51:03 <BlueMatt> denisx: iirc its all the same, just different numbers
1637 2011-07-14 16:51:15 <denisx> same same but different! ;)
1638 2011-07-14 16:51:27 <Joric> what is that strange language
1639 2011-07-14 16:52:44 <Joric> i see ungodly := and @ and probably ^ pointers are somewhere near too :)
1640 2011-07-14 16:53:41 <prof7bit> lol
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1642 2011-07-14 16:55:22 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-106-201-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
1643 2011-07-14 16:55:24 <prof7bit> not many ^ in my code, mostly I dereference with [] and use no pointer arithmetic at all
1644 2011-07-14 16:56:43 <Joric> i worked in a company writting system utilities on delphi, they were spendin most time rewritting various headers from c
1645 2011-07-14 16:57:39 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1646 2011-07-14 16:58:49 <FellowTraveler> I did Delphi once.
1647 2011-07-14 16:58:53 <FellowTraveler> Once.
1648 2011-07-14 16:59:09 <prof7bit> I recently translated parts of the linux v4l1 headers to Pascal, not funny.
1649 2011-07-14 16:59:16 WildSoil has quit ()
1650 2011-07-14 16:59:25 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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1652 2011-07-14 17:00:23 <prof7bit> and then after I was almost done I found out about someone havig ported the complete v4l2 API already
1653 2011-07-14 17:00:57 <prof7bit> but now i know how IOCTL calls work. lol.
1654 2011-07-14 17:00:58 maqr has joined
1655 2011-07-14 17:02:17 <prof7bit> Pascal is a nice language. Porting from Pascal to C is 100 times easier than the other way
1656 2011-07-14 17:02:34 <Guest72992> Project Bitcoin-Test build #8: STILL FAILING in 17 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Test/8/
1657 2011-07-14 17:02:34 <Guest72992> matt: Fix bad return values in LoadWallet.
1658 2011-07-14 17:02:36 <prof7bit> easily readable
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1661 2011-07-14 17:03:17 <Guest72992> Project Bitcoin-Sanitytest build #56: ABORTED in 1 min 0 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Sanitytest/56/
1662 2011-07-14 17:05:03 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r0de6a45 / (9 files in 4 dirs): Switched from built-in Mongoose to Mongoose from NPM. See GH-6. - http://bit.ly/ozTNdp https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/0de6a454211270cfe543fdd52a8e076ffc7073b3
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1668 2011-07-14 17:15:48 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, my postgresql schema is so beautiful
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1673 2011-07-14 17:23:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: laszlo continues to be MIA
1674 2011-07-14 17:23:48 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I wonder if we can get a VM of OSX going somewhere
1675 2011-07-14 17:24:00 traviscj has joined
1676 2011-07-14 17:24:13 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I have one thats a bit wonky, but I havent gotten around to building on it
1677 2011-07-14 17:24:30 <BlueMatt> well wonky as in crashes on occasion due to missing unvirtualized hardware, but it works fine
1678 2011-07-14 17:24:31 <phantomcircuit> WOOO OH THEYRE HALF WAY THERE
1679 2011-07-14 17:24:35 <phantomcircuit> rofl stupid musak
1680 2011-07-14 17:24:38 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ideal world would include OSX in our gitian stuff
1681 2011-07-14 17:24:49 <b4epoche> I can do OSX stuff
1682 2011-07-14 17:24:53 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1683 2011-07-14 17:24:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well cross compile for osx is ridiculous afaict
1684 2011-07-14 17:25:36 <BlueMatt> so its manual until someone spends a *ton* of time to figure out how to patch gcc right
1685 2011-07-14 17:25:36 MC-Eeepc has joined
1686 2011-07-14 17:25:50 <jgarzik> yep :/
1687 2011-07-14 17:25:52 * jgarzik -> lunch
1688 2011-07-14 17:26:30 <b4epoche> what VM you using BlueMatt ?
1689 2011-07-14 17:26:30 RenaKunisaki has joined
1690 2011-07-14 17:28:06 <BlueMatt> virtualbox
1691 2011-07-14 17:28:08 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
1692 2011-07-14 17:28:20 <BlueMatt> (on linux...)
1693 2011-07-14 17:28:33 <b4epoche> ah...
1694 2011-07-14 17:28:36 <BlueMatt> I do have a mac sitting in front of me, but it takes too long to turn on...
1695 2011-07-14 17:28:47 <BlueMatt> (old macbook)
1696 2011-07-14 17:28:47 <b4epoche> sheesh...
1697 2011-07-14 17:28:52 <b4epoche> ppc?
1698 2011-07-14 17:29:03 <BlueMatt> no, no its only like 3 years old
1699 2011-07-14 17:29:07 <BlueMatt> was really nice at the time
1700 2011-07-14 17:29:17 stuhood has joined
1701 2011-07-14 17:29:23 <BlueMatt> but compared to a desktop i7...it doesnt compare
1702 2011-07-14 17:29:38 freakazoid has joined
1703 2011-07-14 17:30:21 <b4epoche> hackintosh that desktop
1704 2011-07-14 17:30:34 <BlueMatt> or hackintosh a vm on the desktop...which works better
1705 2011-07-14 17:30:52 <b4epoche> until it crashes
1706 2011-07-14 17:30:57 <BlueMatt> well theres that
1707 2011-07-14 17:31:46 <b4epoche> just move to OSX
1708 2011-07-14 17:31:52 <b4epoche> and run Linux in a VM
1709 2011-07-14 17:31:57 <BlueMatt> I used to use osx fulltime, but I prefer linux
1710 2011-07-14 17:34:15 <lfm> you run linux on apple hardware?
1711 2011-07-14 17:34:20 <BlueMatt> no
1712 2011-07-14 17:34:26 <BlueMatt> well, yes my old laptop, but not anymore
1713 2011-07-14 17:34:33 <BlueMatt> apple hardware is damn good
1714 2011-07-14 17:35:03 james has joined
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1716 2011-07-14 17:35:29 james is now known as Guest6766
1717 2011-07-14 17:38:23 TheAncientGoat has joined
1718 2011-07-14 17:39:39 <b4epoche> what hw you have now?
1719 2011-07-14 17:40:09 <BlueMatt> i7 custom built desktop and lenovo laptop
1720 2011-07-14 17:41:46 justmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1721 2011-07-14 17:44:11 <coderrr> whats the best laptop to run linux on these days
1722 2011-07-14 17:44:23 <BlueMatt> most of them
1723 2011-07-14 17:45:20 <phantomcircuit> lenovo is always a good choice for linux
1724 2011-07-14 17:45:32 <phantomcircuit> they make sure everything in them is supported properly
1725 2011-07-14 17:45:41 senseles has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1726 2011-07-14 17:45:45 <BlueMatt> thats why I have one :)
1727 2011-07-14 17:45:51 <phantomcircuit> also apple hardware isn't always that great BlueMatt ;)
1728 2011-07-14 17:46:01 <phantomcircuit> always pretty though
1729 2011-07-14 17:46:25 <BlueMatt> well the build quality is always damn good has become the best of anyone in the past year or two
1730 2011-07-14 17:46:35 <BlueMatt> the internals arent really any different
1731 2011-07-14 17:46:46 <BlueMatt> though their ssd handling has been just terrible
1732 2011-07-14 17:46:47 SecretSJ has joined
1733 2011-07-14 17:47:01 <BlueMatt> use apple ssds or go fuck yourself isnt a good method apple
1734 2011-07-14 17:47:16 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1735 2011-07-14 17:47:17 <phantomcircuit> lol
1736 2011-07-14 17:47:31 <phantomcircuit> it is when you're only motivation is profit
1737 2011-07-14 17:47:45 <BlueMatt> well thats no different with any company...
1738 2011-07-14 17:48:04 <BlueMatt> if someone is buying a laptop and an intel ssd or smth, chances are they are gonna spec their laptop more than default
1739 2011-07-14 17:48:06 <b4epoche> hmm…  strange.  I know a lot of folks who've upgraded macs with ssd's
1740 2011-07-14 17:48:10 <phantomcircuit> yes but they're so much better at it
1741 2011-07-14 17:48:18 <coderrr> are there any laptops that have batteries comparable to mbpros ?
1742 2011-07-14 17:48:25 <b4epoche> like stuffing them in the dvd space on mpb's
1743 2011-07-14 17:48:33 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: they usually work, but there have been quite q few ones that straight up dont work
1744 2011-07-14 17:48:45 <phantomcircuit> coderrr, buy laptop, buy extra batteries
1745 2011-07-14 17:48:52 <phantomcircuit> mbpro * infinity!
1746 2011-07-14 17:48:55 <coderrr> phantomcircuit, i used to do that but, it really sucks
1747 2011-07-14 17:48:59 <BlueMatt> and still come up cheaper than mbpro
1748 2011-07-14 17:49:08 <phantomcircuit> but seriously the battery life they get is entirely because you cant replace the battery
1749 2011-07-14 17:49:15 <denisx> I put an intel 510 ssd in my macbookpro, never have seen SPOD again
1750 2011-07-14 17:49:16 <coderrr> i dont get why someone hasnt jsut ripped off apples battery tech yet
1751 2011-07-14 17:49:29 <phantomcircuit> OS X doesn't support TRIM
1752 2011-07-14 17:49:36 <phantomcircuit> or at least didn't last i checked
1753 2011-07-14 17:49:39 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes it does (in recent versions)
1754 2011-07-14 17:49:43 <b4epoche> battery life is because battery not removable?
1755 2011-07-14 17:49:44 <denisx> phantomcircuit: it does, but only for their ssds
1756 2011-07-14 17:49:45 <b4epoche> eh?
1757 2011-07-14 17:49:51 <BlueMatt> coderrr: because they have a copyright?
1758 2011-07-14 17:49:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1759 2011-07-14 17:49:53 <denisx> but there is TRIM enabler
1760 2011-07-14 17:49:54 <coderrr> phantomcircuit, u can replace the batteries in the latest models
1761 2011-07-14 17:49:56 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no
1762 2011-07-14 17:50:10 <BlueMatt> coderrr: no you cant, its only the old ones that you can
1763 2011-07-14 17:50:14 <phantomcircuit> coderrr, yeah with a screw driver try doing that in an airport
1764 2011-07-14 17:50:21 <coderrr> thast what imeant
1765 2011-07-14 17:50:25 <denisx> http://www.groths.org/?page_id=322
1766 2011-07-14 17:50:25 <coderrr> with a screwdriver :)
1767 2011-07-14 17:50:33 <BlueMatt> well if its not supported by apple...
1768 2011-07-14 17:50:41 <phantomcircuit> lol the apple batteries are the exact same shit as everybody else
1769 2011-07-14 17:50:52 <denisx> just bigger
1770 2011-07-14 17:50:53 <BlueMatt> lenovo will sell you an adapter to shove an ssd into the cd drive slot, you do that with a mb and you void your warranty
1771 2011-07-14 17:50:55 <phantomcircuit> all they did was remove a ton of plastic by making them difficult to remove
1772 2011-07-14 17:51:01 <b4epoche> there's nothing special about have the battery not removable that would make it last longer
1773 2011-07-14 17:51:25 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, yes there is, the plastic housing is a very large % of the overall volume of a normal removeable battery
1774 2011-07-14 17:51:28 <BlueMatt> they have some better tech (that they have copyrighted) in their batteries, but its not because it cant be removed
1775 2011-07-14 17:51:41 <phantomcircuit> facepalm no they dont
1776 2011-07-14 17:51:44 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: thats bs
1777 2011-07-14 17:51:58 <BlueMatt> plastic housing takes up space???
1778 2011-07-14 17:51:59 <BlueMatt> bs
1779 2011-07-14 17:52:02 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1780 2011-07-14 17:52:07 <BlueMatt> its fucking plastic
1781 2011-07-14 17:52:07 <phantomcircuit> the housing + the latch enclosure
1782 2011-07-14 17:52:17 <BlueMatt> oh come on
1783 2011-07-14 17:52:19 <phantomcircuit> lol it's like 20% of the total volume of the battery
1784 2011-07-14 17:52:21 <phantomcircuit> seriously
1785 2011-07-14 17:52:25 <phantomcircuit> go take one apart
1786 2011-07-14 17:52:27 <BlueMatt> lol, ok then
1787 2011-07-14 17:52:41 <phantomcircuit> i gtg
1788 2011-07-14 17:52:46 <phantomcircuit> 2bcontinued
1789 2011-07-14 17:52:55 <BlueMatt> ...or not
1790 2011-07-14 17:52:56 <b4epoche> http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/4NcoT6JVsZVFkPlG.huge
1791 2011-07-14 17:53:01 <BlueMatt> not worth debating
1792 2011-07-14 17:54:15 <BlueMatt> iirc instead of spherical battery cells they use rectangular which saves the space you might be talking about
1793 2011-07-14 17:54:22 <BlueMatt> (which IIRC they have a patent on)
1794 2011-07-14 17:54:35 <coderrr> how long do you usually get on a lenovo?
1795 2011-07-14 17:54:35 <BlueMatt> and that absolutely can save space
1796 2011-07-14 17:54:46 <BlueMatt> you can get just as much as a mbp these days
1797 2011-07-14 17:54:50 <BlueMatt> 7 hours or whatever
1798 2011-07-14 17:54:51 <coderrr> really ? hrm
1799 2011-07-14 17:54:52 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1800 2011-07-14 17:55:00 <coderrr> maybe its time to dump this crap then
1801 2011-07-14 17:55:03 <b4epoche> Apple does have some battery patents.  Plus, I think with control of sw and hw they can do better power management
1802 2011-07-14 17:55:06 <BlueMatt> apple has an advantage, but once you hit that kinda time...
1803 2011-07-14 17:55:10 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter
1804 2011-07-14 17:55:16 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: that could be as well
1805 2011-07-14 17:56:08 justmoon has joined
1806 2011-07-14 17:56:35 <b4epoche> iPad battery life is amazing
1807 2011-07-14 17:56:58 <BlueMatt> well its the iphone internals and all the rest of the space is batteries
1808 2011-07-14 17:57:06 <BlueMatt> so...
1809 2011-07-14 17:57:21 <b4epoche> yea, but why can't others do that?
1810 2011-07-14 17:57:52 <BlueMatt> because apple has an amazing design dept to squeeze all the space they can out of their hardware
1811 2011-07-14 17:57:58 <BlueMatt> plus they have that hugeass bezel
1812 2011-07-14 17:58:10 * b4epoche is never sure if Apple engineers are brilliant or others are incompetent...
1813 2011-07-14 17:58:15 <WakiMiko> they also squeeze money out of their followers
1814 2011-07-14 17:58:18 <BlueMatt> well probably both
1815 2011-07-14 17:58:22 <BlueMatt> all three
1816 2011-07-14 17:58:45 <b4epoche> you got a better price on a tablet?
1817 2011-07-14 17:59:00 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what apple is amazing at (well jobs is) is just saying no to an unfinished project, if its not up to spec, it doesnt get released
1818 2011-07-14 17:59:11 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: so they spend more time designing their things than others
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1820 2011-07-14 17:59:17 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  that is /very/ true
1821 2011-07-14 17:59:21 <BlueMatt> I mean look at hp, they probably have 200 models of laptops
1822 2011-07-14 17:59:28 <BlueMatt> apple has what, 3
1823 2011-07-14 17:59:39 <b4epoche> I remember a couple quotes from him about the hard part is knowing when to say no.
1824 2011-07-14 17:59:39 <BlueMatt> like 10 if you count screen size differences
1825 2011-07-14 17:59:44 <lianj> BlueMatt: they are also good at not supporting old version :|
1826 2011-07-14 17:59:55 <BlueMatt> I dont blame them for that
1827 2011-07-14 17:59:55 <b4epoche> and then telling Nike's new CEO to quit making all the crap
1828 2011-07-14 18:00:03 <BlueMatt> lol
1829 2011-07-14 18:00:55 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1830 2011-07-14 18:01:00 Zagitta has joined
1831 2011-07-14 18:01:24 <b4epoche> I don't know why other companies don't have the confidence to focus...
1832 2011-07-14 18:01:44 <BlueMatt> because it goes against what they teach these idiots when they get their mba
1833 2011-07-14 18:02:01 <chinaskibit> short term gains and all that
1834 2011-07-14 18:02:10 <b4epoche> but then you have RIM that was probably too focused
1835 2011-07-14 18:02:21 <BlueMatt> no, rim has 100 phones
1836 2011-07-14 18:02:28 <b4epoche>  /now/
1837 2011-07-14 18:02:34 <BlueMatt> true
1838 2011-07-14 18:02:56 <BlueMatt> I would argue that rim was actually good back in the day because they were so focused
1839 2011-07-14 18:03:00 <BlueMatt> pick one thing and do it right
1840 2011-07-14 18:03:11 <BlueMatt> dont try to compete with normal phones and smartphones, and everything else
1841 2011-07-14 18:03:20 <BlueMatt> just make your business smartphones and focus
1842 2011-07-14 18:03:24 <denisx> but they didn't see the change of the landscape coming
1843 2011-07-14 18:03:30 <BlueMatt> thats true
1844 2011-07-14 18:03:38 <BlueMatt> they should have switched to a customized business android
1845 2011-07-14 18:03:47 <b4epoche> well, they looked at it from the wrong way…  focused on business/government
1846 2011-07-14 18:03:48 <BlueMatt> well, they still have time if they are already working on it
1847 2011-07-14 18:03:59 <BlueMatt> there is still a huge demand for good business phones
1848 2011-07-14 18:04:05 <BlueMatt> and no one is really stepping up to fill it
1849 2011-07-14 18:04:09 <b4epoche> basically didn't realize that people didn't want their employer telling them which cell phone to use
1850 2011-07-14 18:04:16 <BlueMatt> android is oss and Im sure google would love to work with RIM
1851 2011-07-14 18:04:26 <BlueMatt> their employer always will though
1852 2011-07-14 18:04:32 <BlueMatt> security of email and all that
1853 2011-07-14 18:04:46 <BlueMatt> well, until rim's offerings are sooo bad that people just say no, which they are doing now
1854 2011-07-14 18:04:57 <b4epoche> but they should have moved into consumer friendly phones.
1855 2011-07-14 18:04:59 <BlueMatt> remote wipe support, local encryption...
1856 2011-07-14 18:05:11 skeledrew1 has joined
1857 2011-07-14 18:05:33 <b4epoche> http://www.bgr.com/2011/07/13/rims-inside-story-an-exclusive-look-at-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-company-that-made-smartphones-smart/
1858 2011-07-14 18:05:34 <BlueMatt> I would argue that their phones really arent so bad for consumers (I know a ton of consumers who use bb and love them)
1859 2011-07-14 18:05:43 <BlueMatt> but they just fell behind
1860 2011-07-14 18:05:47 <BlueMatt> they didnt fight to get apps
1861 2011-07-14 18:05:52 <b4epoche> yea, when it was the only game in town
1862 2011-07-14 18:05:53 <BlueMatt> they didnt make a good browser
1863 2011-07-14 18:05:58 <BlueMatt> no, still today
1864 2011-07-14 18:06:03 <BlueMatt> I know people who love their bbs
1865 2011-07-14 18:06:04 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1866 2011-07-14 18:06:14 <BlueMatt> (bb is still big in europe for some reason)
1867 2011-07-14 18:06:32 <b4epoche> oh, I do also…  but they could have made the move earlier.
1868 2011-07-14 18:06:37 <b4epoche> and not been in such a mess
1869 2011-07-14 18:06:40 <BlueMatt> absolutely
1870 2011-07-14 18:07:04 <BlueMatt> I still think if they turn around now, get a basic android phone out on their hardware and add some bbe support, they could turn around really fast
1871 2011-07-14 18:07:17 <BlueMatt> but no way in hell will they do that
1872 2011-07-14 18:07:27 <b4epoche> but what sets their hw apart from anyone else's?
1873 2011-07-14 18:07:37 <BlueMatt> nothing but people are used to it
1874 2011-07-14 18:07:38 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1875 2011-07-14 18:07:42 <BlueMatt> its still a fairly strong brand
1876 2011-07-14 18:07:47 <BlueMatt> but its not about the hw
1877 2011-07-14 18:07:49 <b4epoche> I mean it does seem rock solid
1878 2011-07-14 18:07:53 <BlueMatt> its about the enterprise support
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1882 2011-07-14 18:08:03 Fuehrer has joined
1883 2011-07-14 18:08:04 <b4epoche> well, then how does Android fit?
1884 2011-07-14 18:08:06 <BlueMatt> no one can provide enterprise support for iphone or android yet
1885 2011-07-14 18:08:07 MC-Eeepc has joined
1886 2011-07-14 18:08:17 <BlueMatt> android could be modified to support bbe server and all that stuff
1887 2011-07-14 18:08:20 <b4epoche> I'm saying, what makes Android on BB HW special?
1888 2011-07-14 18:08:22 <BlueMatt> like local email encryption, remote wipe
1889 2011-07-14 18:08:32 <BlueMatt> nothing, but if they do their own version of android...
1890 2011-07-14 18:08:41 <BlueMatt> with bbe support and their full enterprise weight...
1891 2011-07-14 18:09:28 <b4epoche> I think they're dead.  Which I don't like but I think that's the reality.
1892 2011-07-14 18:09:51 <b4epoche> unless, say MS buys them (but then they're dead too)
1893 2011-07-14 18:10:06 <b4epoche> maybe Nokia
1894 2011-07-14 18:10:12 <BlueMatt> oh I agree, someone will buy them
1895 2011-07-14 18:10:14 <BlueMatt> they are dead
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1899 2011-07-14 18:10:34 <BlueMatt> but companies still want a good enterprise phone, that is the only reason they still sell (well that and developing nations)
1900 2011-07-14 18:10:43 <BlueMatt> they sell a lot in developing nations, and still to companies
1901 2011-07-14 18:10:45 <b4epoche> then Nokia and BB could have side-by-side cemetery plots
1902 2011-07-14 18:10:48 <phungus> BB only worked because of BES
1903 2011-07-14 18:10:49 <BlueMatt> companies take a *long* time to shift
1904 2011-07-14 18:10:58 <phungus> BIS is only ok
1905 2011-07-14 18:11:17 <phungus> BES=BlackBerry Enterprise Server
1906 2011-07-14 18:11:26 <BlueMatt> phungus: they still work because of bes
1907 2011-07-14 18:11:28 <phungus> BIS=Blackberry Internet Svc (Mail store-n-forward)
1908 2011-07-14 18:11:29 <BlueMatt> (well somewhat)
1909 2011-07-14 18:11:30 <phungus> yeah
1910 2011-07-14 18:11:33 <BlueMatt> they are still alive because of bes
1911 2011-07-14 18:11:37 <phungus> exactly
1912 2011-07-14 18:11:45 <phungus> it all just needs a facelift
1913 2011-07-14 18:11:47 <BlueMatt> but they can keep themselves going...
1914 2011-07-14 18:11:52 <BlueMatt> android is the answer
1915 2011-07-14 18:11:56 <BlueMatt> not that they will
1916 2011-07-14 18:12:01 <BlueMatt> there is no chance in hell they will
1917 2011-07-14 18:12:15 <phungus> stranger things have happened I guess
1918 2011-07-14 18:12:25 <BlueMatt> but, just think, it takes companies *forever* to shift, many of them still use bbs for their army of people
1919 2011-07-14 18:12:28 <phungus> Google buys RIM and integrates BES services into the Google app fold
1920 2011-07-14 18:12:32 <phungus> or rewrites it
1921 2011-07-14 18:12:32 <BlueMatt> if bb got actually good phones
1922 2011-07-14 18:12:38 <BlueMatt> and rewrote android to support bes
1923 2011-07-14 18:12:47 <BlueMatt> and have all the enterprise stuff companies want
1924 2011-07-14 18:12:50 <phungus> there was a Blackberry client for Palm
1925 2011-07-14 18:12:55 <BlueMatt> companies wont continue to shift away from bb
1926 2011-07-14 18:13:01 <BlueMatt> and they could have a chance
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1928 2011-07-14 18:13:11 <BlueMatt> but, lets face it, bb still doesnt realize they have a problem
1929 2011-07-14 18:13:13 <b4epoche> maybe BB should become a SW company
1930 2011-07-14 18:13:19 <BlueMatt> maybe
1931 2011-07-14 18:13:23 <phungus> yeah RIM is a mess
1932 2011-07-14 18:13:32 <b4epoche> s/BB/RIM
1933 2011-07-14 18:13:45 <BlueMatt> their 2 ceos do a good job of convincing each other that they are fine
1934 2011-07-14 18:13:55 stalled has joined
1935 2011-07-14 18:14:02 <b4epoche> they could make iOS/Android/WindowsPhone apps for use with BES
1936 2011-07-14 18:14:19 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  did you read the BGR article?
1937 2011-07-14 18:14:37 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: no, Ive been meaning to since it came out, but never got around to it
1938 2011-07-14 18:14:42 pipo22 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1939 2011-07-14 18:15:53 <b4epoche> pretty gloomy
1940 2011-07-14 18:15:58 <Zagitta> Is H != 0 unimportant for a pool that rewrites the target?
1941 2011-07-14 18:16:31 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: meh, everyone knows rim is dead, they need to make a huge shift now, and they just keep thinking they are fine
1942 2011-07-14 18:16:48 <BlueMatt> they make sell a lot of phones in the developing world but they sell them for so cheap there...
1943 2011-07-14 18:19:23 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  I mean pretty gloomy mood there…  looks like people are bailing.
1944 2011-07-14 18:19:40 <BlueMatt> did you read the public letter that guy released to the rim ceos?
1945 2011-07-14 18:20:02 <BlueMatt> like a couple days ago someone claiming to be a rim exec released a letter that was just like "I love this company, but you guys really suck"
1946 2011-07-14 18:20:21 JRWR has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1947 2011-07-14 18:20:22 <BlueMatt> "and corporate culture here just means I cant talk about anything..."
1948 2011-07-14 18:20:34 JRWR has joined
1949 2011-07-14 18:20:35 abadr has joined
1950 2011-07-14 18:20:48 <b4epoche> yea, I recall that...
1951 2011-07-14 18:20:56 <b4epoche> and RIM's dumb response
1952 2011-07-14 18:21:02 <BlueMatt> yea
1953 2011-07-14 18:21:10 <BlueMatt> why anyone is holding rim stock anymore I just dont know
1954 2011-07-14 18:22:01 karnac has joined
1955 2011-07-14 18:22:33 <b4epoche> honestly, they should probably pull a NeXT...
1956 2011-07-14 18:22:40 abadr has quit (Client Quit)
1957 2011-07-14 18:22:44 pusle has joined
1958 2011-07-14 18:22:48 <BlueMatt> more like palm now...
1959 2011-07-14 18:23:02 <BlueMatt> though without the vision...
1960 2011-07-14 18:23:16 <b4epoche> true…  but palm basically were forced out of the hw business
1961 2011-07-14 18:23:17 JRWR has quit (Client Quit)
1962 2011-07-14 18:23:44 enquirer1 has quit (Quit: back soon)
1963 2011-07-14 18:23:48 <BlueMatt> yea, though webos was nice, too bad it just didnt catch on
1964 2011-07-14 18:24:18 <BlueMatt> Im just saying rim should just get themselves bought
1965 2011-07-14 18:24:24 <BlueMatt> instead of trying to do anything anymore
1966 2011-07-14 18:24:49 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1967 2011-07-14 18:25:41 Joric has joined
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1969 2011-07-14 18:27:22 <Zagitta> forrestv: You there?
1970 2011-07-14 18:27:45 freakazoid has joined
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1973 2011-07-14 18:36:31 Wuked has joined
1974 2011-07-14 18:37:22 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you owe me a couple megabytes of disk space for this crap: http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000008e68c60c74533078ca75a018f13654a0e28af27de81134b0d73
1975 2011-07-14 18:37:31 Teslah has joined
1976 2011-07-14 18:37:47 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1977 2011-07-14 18:37:51 <BlueMatt> my god
1978 2011-07-14 18:38:04 <BlueMatt> how often do you pay out 0.01 mBTC?
1979 2011-07-14 18:38:15 <BlueMatt> why does anyone let you do that?
1980 2011-07-14 18:38:32 zomtec has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1981 2011-07-14 18:38:53 <gmaxwell> I'm assuming transactions like this are someone intentionally being a jackass to make a point about eligius' fees, http://blockexplorer.com/tx/b444cadfd1b7ba09db7b20f22f016f2f51a719ed2fa950ef8bfb08f5f0698461
1982 2011-07-14 18:39:32 <BlueMatt> ok, new block-checking policy: if it came from luke, drop it
1983 2011-07-14 18:39:47 <BlueMatt> luke needs more fees
1984 2011-07-14 18:40:10 Teslah has quit (Client Quit)
1985 2011-07-14 18:40:23 <gmaxwell> Yea, I was thinking about spinning up nodes that refuse to foward blocks like that…
1986 2011-07-14 18:40:35 <BlueMatt> you need miners to help
1987 2011-07-14 18:40:49 <BlueMatt> but [Tycho] and slush2 should reject that kind of crap
1988 2011-07-14 18:41:23 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1989 2011-07-14 18:42:14 <gmaxwell> This is one of luke's own TXN, I assume, it's not as terrible but it's still pretty crackheaded. http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d50871077b83f7f2497a65c8ff00172c9bbfefd46cd2c4c258a2cccbad337d82
1990 2011-07-14 18:42:50 <gmaxwell> (I'm assuming that because it has no fee)
1991 2011-07-14 18:42:58 <BlueMatt> no way to see if its luke's
1992 2011-07-14 18:43:03 <BlueMatt> could be any pool paying out
1993 2011-07-14 18:43:15 <BlueMatt> oh wait, nvm
1994 2011-07-14 18:43:17 <gmaxwell> Luke won't mine transactions with zero fee.
1995 2011-07-14 18:43:18 <BlueMatt> yep thats lukes
1996 2011-07-14 18:43:18 <gmaxwell> Yea.
1997 2011-07-14 18:43:36 <b4epoche> he pays out immediately?
1998 2011-07-14 18:43:36 <BlueMatt> well the inputs are all generations from luke's blocks
1999 2011-07-14 18:43:39 <gmaxwell> Well— he also will mine zero fee transactions which pay the via as an output in the transaction to one of his donation addresses.
2000 2011-07-14 18:43:40 <mtrlt> what's crackheaded about a pool paying out?
2001 2011-07-14 18:43:44 <BlueMatt> which do all the crazy 2000 payouts per block
2002 2011-07-14 18:44:10 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: paying out single 0.01 mBTC payouts is just rediculous
2003 2011-07-14 18:44:19 <BlueMatt> and a waste of space and processing power for everyone
2004 2011-07-14 18:44:30 <BlueMatt> and net bw
2005 2011-07-14 18:44:32 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: there is 1511 outputs some as small as 0.00000001
2006 2011-07-14 18:44:40 <b4epoche> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/e79a1bb8c40023219e9247464ac15c02d2c2d784d4f0a025be8958e8d25a052e
2007 2011-07-14 18:44:48 <mtrlt> gmaxwell: ah >_>
2008 2011-07-14 18:44:58 <mtrlt> not in luke's tx
2009 2011-07-14 18:45:05 <BlueMatt> no, it is luke's tx
2010 2011-07-14 18:45:06 <mtrlt> only in a tx that eligius approved :p
2011 2011-07-14 18:45:22 <mtrlt> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d50871077b83f7f2497a65c8ff00172c9bbfefd46cd2c4c258a2cccbad337d82 here?
2012 2011-07-14 18:45:32 <mtrlt> the 1-satoshi ones are inputs.
2013 2011-07-14 18:45:34 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: yes, in luke's tx. Well, a zero fee txn his block mined.
2014 2011-07-14 18:45:40 <WakiMiko> i thought there was a 1MB limit per block?
2015 2011-07-14 18:45:44 <gmaxwell> oh you're right.
2016 2011-07-14 18:45:51 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko: no its like 100M
2017 2011-07-14 18:45:59 <b4epoche> even worse:  http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ae4409fabfce84cc9f665f16b5a6219ca8b708fdbed7264adbb7b6053cdfb1c1
2018 2011-07-14 18:46:05 <b4epoche> is that luke?
2019 2011-07-14 18:46:08 <WakiMiko> hm was it changed? i remember reading 1MB
2020 2011-07-14 18:46:08 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: there are outputs like 0.00000738 though, — hardly better.
2021 2011-07-14 18:46:25 <mtrlt> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/b444cadfd1b7ba09db7b20f22f016f2f51a719ed2fa950ef8bfb08f5f0698461 but hey, look at the output addresses. they seem to have english words in the beginning :P
2022 2011-07-14 18:46:44 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: it was mined by luke.
2023 2011-07-14 18:46:45 <nanotube> WakiMiko: yea i think it's 1MB too... unless they changed something without telling anyone :)
2024 2011-07-14 18:47:03 <BlueMatt> maybe it is, I thought it was bigger...
2025 2011-07-14 18:47:09 <BlueMatt> dont think it ever got changed though
2026 2011-07-14 18:47:09 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's 1MB now.
2027 2011-07-14 18:47:18 <sipa> it is 1MB.... should be
2028 2011-07-14 18:47:35 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: since it has a fee it's not luke's txn...
2029 2011-07-14 18:47:42 <mtrlt> b4epoche's pasted tx also has them :P
2030 2011-07-14 18:47:48 <b4epoche> yea, those to address are names
2031 2011-07-14 18:47:53 <WakiMiko> but lukes blocks are way bigger
2032 2011-07-14 18:48:08 <WakiMiko> oh nvm
2033 2011-07-14 18:48:23 <WakiMiko> dot and comma, always confusing
2034 2011-07-14 18:48:34 <BlueMatt> god, we need to ban luke from bitcoin...
2035 2011-07-14 18:48:36 <WakiMiko> forget i said anything
2036 2011-07-14 18:49:10 <mtrlt> BlueMatt: because he accepts txs you don't? :P
2037 2011-07-14 18:49:12 <b4epoche> are the terrorists using bitcoin addresses to send messages?
2038 2011-07-14 18:49:36 <Joric> goes github understand README.txt or it should be just README?
2039 2011-07-14 18:49:47 <Joric> *does
2040 2011-07-14 18:49:54 <gmaxwell> Sweet, it should only cost .08388608© to get luke to output a maximum size block.
2041 2011-07-14 18:49:55 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: no, because he accepts txes that are clearly, clearly spam and random jibberish that he accepts purely because he gets paid, when it causes bw , hdd, and cpu useage for all nodes across the network
2042 2011-07-14 18:50:33 <gmaxwell> especially cool since a 1MB block is more likely to get orphaned due to delayed propagation.
2043 2011-07-14 18:50:36 <BlueMatt> and he takes payments that are very, very, very small
2044 2011-07-14 18:50:41 <b4epoche> seriously though…  what's up with the words in the addresses?
2045 2011-07-14 18:50:51 <BlueMatt> where?
2046 2011-07-14 18:50:54 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: there arewords? aweseome!
2047 2011-07-14 18:50:59 <b4epoche> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/b444cadfd1b7ba09db7b20f22f016f2f51a719ed2fa950ef8bfb08f5f0698461
2048 2011-07-14 18:51:02 <mtrlt> yeah
2049 2011-07-14 18:51:11 <gmaxwell> ahahah
2050 2011-07-14 18:51:15 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2051 2011-07-14 18:51:16 <gmaxwell> dictionary block.
2052 2011-07-14 18:51:21 <BlueMatt> I see a name in the first one, thats it?
2053 2011-07-14 18:51:26 <gmaxwell> they're vanity addresses, not unspendtable addresses..
2054 2011-07-14 18:51:29 <mtrlt> i see words in like every one
2055 2011-07-14 18:51:29 <b4epoche> look closely
2056 2011-07-14 18:51:30 <gmaxwell> look at the rest.
2057 2011-07-14 18:51:37 <mtrlt> or, at least one :p
2058 2011-07-14 18:51:44 <mtrlt> one word in every output.
2059 2011-07-14 18:52:12 <BlueMatt> oh yea
2060 2011-07-14 18:52:18 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2061 2011-07-14 18:52:20 <gmaxwell> fran name kaia path ... drew base push
2062 2011-07-14 18:52:29 <gmaxwell> Well, more evidience that someone is being cute.
2063 2011-07-14 18:52:38 <b4epoche> terrorist messages
2064 2011-07-14 18:52:39 <gmaxwell> At least they aren't all outputs to the all zeros address.
2065 2011-07-14 18:52:55 <BlueMatt> now the question, did luke set his node to accept more blocks than max blocksize?
2066 2011-07-14 18:52:56 gwillen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2067 2011-07-14 18:53:05 <BlueMatt> anyone want to find out...?
2068 2011-07-14 18:53:19 <mtrlt> gmaxwell: what's that? :p
2069 2011-07-14 18:53:31 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1111111111111111111114oLvT2
2070 2011-07-14 18:53:41 <mtrlt> hah
2071 2011-07-14 18:53:45 cdecker has joined
2072 2011-07-14 18:53:49 <BlueMatt> no way in hell anyone has they key to that
2073 2011-07-14 18:53:55 stuhood has left ()
2074 2011-07-14 18:53:59 <mtrlt> :D
2075 2011-07-14 18:53:59 <BlueMatt> Hash160?: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
2076 2011-07-14 18:54:03 <mtrlt> yep
2077 2011-07-14 18:54:05 Akinava has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2078 2011-07-14 18:54:12 <gmaxwell> right, but someone probably does have the key to all those addresses in that spamblock.
2079 2011-07-14 18:54:20 <BlueMatt> yep
2080 2011-07-14 18:54:59 <mtrlt> yea
2081 2011-07-14 18:55:42 <gmaxwell> making the default client not forward blocks which it wouldn't have mined if it was mining (or some other lesser standard), until that block is at least one deeper in the blockchain would have a rather profound effect I think.
2082 2011-07-14 18:56:02 <gmaxwell> It would create a severe disincentive to mining crap blocks, as they'll more likely get orphaned.
2083 2011-07-14 18:56:20 <BlueMatt> but more complaints about fee stuff.
2084 2011-07-14 18:56:47 <BlueMatt> fee stuff was designed to be, and should be, a free market, but you have to prevent spam somehow
2085 2011-07-14 18:56:52 <gmaxwell> Well, if the standard was much lower than what it even asks for fees over, probably not.
2086 2011-07-14 18:56:55 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2087 2011-07-14 18:56:56 karnac has joined
2088 2011-07-14 18:57:01 <BlueMatt> and the spiraling-downward-fee problem is rearing its ugly head
2089 2011-07-14 18:57:06 <gmaxwell> And it's in no ones interest to store megabytes and megabytes of this garbage.
2090 2011-07-14 18:57:11 brooss has joined
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2092 2011-07-14 18:58:03 wasabi2 has joined
2093 2011-07-14 18:58:26 <BlueMatt> yea but there is a better way than rejecting blocks with low-fee txes just because its bad
2094 2011-07-14 18:58:27 <gmaxwell> Assuming 40k full nodes, a 256k junk block consumes 10GBytes of storage on the distributed network... and hurts bitcoin's security by hastening the point when most normal people can't run full nodes.
2095 2011-07-14 18:58:35 <BlueMatt> what one could do is do it by size only
2096 2011-07-14 18:58:39 <BlueMatt> ie ignore the new-coins rules
2097 2011-07-14 18:58:53 <BlueMatt> and those rules and reject blocks with huge txes that have no fee
2098 2011-07-14 18:58:58 <gmaxwell> hm. Or how about the median size of the last N blocks.
2099 2011-07-14 18:59:16 <BlueMatt> no, you should do it by tx size not block size...?
2100 2011-07-14 18:59:57 <gmaxwell> Hm? I think I can make luke produce a 1mb block by feeding him 1000 1kb txns.
2101 2011-07-14 19:00:08 <gmaxwell> (each with a 0.00008192 fee)
2102 2011-07-14 19:00:28 <BlueMatt> ok, well maybe block size then...
2103 2011-07-14 19:00:55 <BlueMatt> make MAX_BLOCKSIZE dynamic...
2104 2011-07-14 19:01:14 <mtrlt> yea it'll have to be changed anyway if bitcoin is gonna become big :p
2105 2011-07-14 19:01:14 <b4epoche> are we going to need pow to make a tx?
2106 2011-07-14 19:01:16 <gmaxwell> Instead if nodes delayed the forwarding of any block they heard of which was bigger than N * the median of the last M blocks, until it was at least one deep, then there would be serious pressure not to be an outlyer miner.
2107 2011-07-14 19:01:25 <gmaxwell> But there would still be a free market.
2108 2011-07-14 19:01:46 <gmaxwell> outlier*
2109 2011-07-14 19:02:44 hvala has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2110 2011-07-14 19:02:47 <gmaxwell> All rational miners would constrain their maximum block size to that value.
2111 2011-07-14 19:02:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: sipa comments?
2112 2011-07-14 19:03:14 <gmaxwell> (I'd want to think about that long and hard, of course)
2113 2011-07-14 19:03:38 <BlueMatt> it would have to take effect in a future block, not just permanently
2114 2011-07-14 19:06:22 <BlueMatt> it could cause problems if all of a sudden you get a flood of txes and you just get a ton of txes backed up...
2115 2011-07-14 19:08:03 huk has joined
2116 2011-07-14 19:08:19 <gmaxwell> so, if it worked as a delay it's a soft rule.  If it worked as a dynamic limit, then it would have to begin a particular future block.
2117 2011-07-14 19:08:44 <gmaxwell> (both could be done. E.g. a delay if you beat the median by x%, a limit if you beat the median by y%)
2118 2011-07-14 19:09:00 <gmaxwell> Having some backlog isn't bad— it makes things like priority meaningful.
2119 2011-07-14 19:09:07 <BlueMatt> a delay? like it doesnt get relayed unless it is faster?
2120 2011-07-14 19:09:26 <BlueMatt> no, backlog is god, huge backlog is bad
2121 2011-07-14 19:09:36 Ramen has joined
2122 2011-07-14 19:09:41 <gmaxwell> If you hear a block, and it breaks the rule, you don't tell anyone else about it until that block is burried one deep in the chain.
2123 2011-07-14 19:09:45 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
2124 2011-07-14 19:09:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136283 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 804 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1658653.47566089
2125 2011-07-14 19:09:56 <BlueMatt> well that is a limit (effectively)
2126 2011-07-14 19:10:13 <gmaxwell> Right, but it's one that doesn't break the historic blockchain.
2127 2011-07-14 19:10:20 <BlueMatt> true
2128 2011-07-14 19:10:48 <gmaxwell> So, e.g. I could bring up nodes that do that today, and it wouldn't break anything.. it would just start creating a (small) disadvantage for miners which break the rule.
2129 2011-07-14 19:11:00 <BlueMatt> yea
2130 2011-07-14 19:11:01 <gmaxwell> (well, a big one, if I happen to end up between them and some big pools)
2131 2011-07-14 19:11:15 <BlueMatt> yea
2132 2011-07-14 19:11:51 <gmaxwell> Though it doesn't really replace a limit, because if the pools all peer with each other then it wouldn't matter.
2133 2011-07-14 19:12:08 Bachfischer has joined
2134 2011-07-14 19:12:25 <BlueMatt> well we hope [Tycho] keeps up his stance of not doing that...
2135 2011-07-14 19:13:20 brunner has joined
2136 2011-07-14 19:13:33 <gmaxwell> Well, I would trust miners who are trusted enough to get peering like that would know better than to create needlessly large blocks.
2137 2011-07-14 19:13:35 <citiz3n> i wish there were some cool open source pool software out there
2138 2011-07-14 19:13:40 <citiz3n> so miners like me could run our own pools
2139 2011-07-14 19:13:45 <BlueMatt> there are
2140 2011-07-14 19:13:58 <citiz3n> any that work with windows though?
2141 2011-07-14 19:14:00 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep
2142 2011-07-14 19:14:09 <BlueMatt> citiz3n: why the fuck would you run a pool on windows?
2143 2011-07-14 19:14:18 <chinaskibit> Lol BlueMatt
2144 2011-07-14 19:14:21 <citiz3n> i don't know linux
2145 2011-07-14 19:14:21 <BlueMatt> a windows server...?
2146 2011-07-14 19:14:31 <BlueMatt> windows isnt something you host something on
2147 2011-07-14 19:14:46 <BlueMatt> not even a linux desktop...
2148 2011-07-14 19:14:47 <citiz3n> i understand, but you gotta do what you gotta do
2149 2011-07-14 19:14:48 <chinaskibit> Tell my boss that
2150 2011-07-14 19:14:56 <citiz3n> there are tons of people who use windows because they haven't learned linux yet
2151 2011-07-14 19:14:57 <citiz3n> like me
2152 2011-07-14 19:15:06 <citiz3n> linux = time consuming learning curve
2153 2011-07-14 19:15:08 <gmaxwell> In any case, a limit (or the soft limit of a delay) is neat because it dampens the fee race to the bottom a little... basically all the miners are voting on the maximum block size with their own blocks.
2154 2011-07-14 19:15:08 <BlueMatt> nothing wrong with using windows desktop
2155 2011-07-14 19:15:09 harrigan has left ()
2156 2011-07-14 19:15:16 <BlueMatt> but desktop to host something...no
2157 2011-07-14 19:15:40 <BlueMatt> chinaskibit: only valid reason to have windows server: windows domain hosting
2158 2011-07-14 19:15:46 <chinaskibit> Lol
2159 2011-07-14 19:15:49 <chinaskibit> Agreed
2160 2011-07-14 19:16:17 <gmaxwell> citiz3n: ... if you're not willing to spent time to learn linux then you're really unlikely to competently run a pool.
2161 2011-07-14 19:16:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, I like the idea a lot
2162 2011-07-14 19:17:00 <b4epoche> I suppose citiz3n would like a nice GUI on that pool software
2163 2011-07-14 19:17:19 <BlueMatt> probably
2164 2011-07-14 19:17:48 Breign has quit ()
2165 2011-07-14 19:20:20 Fuehrer is now known as Fireball
2166 2011-07-14 19:20:30 <mtrlt> citiz3n: well, then start learning now instead of tomorrow :P
2167 2011-07-14 19:20:49 <gmaxwell> With a nice "repel DDOS" button?
2168 2011-07-14 19:21:13 Joric has quit ()
2169 2011-07-14 19:21:32 <b4epoche> no, DDOS is not a type of DOS
2170 2011-07-14 19:21:36 <mtrlt> even i wouldn't run a server on windows.
2171 2011-07-14 19:21:44 <mtrlt> even though i use windows for nearly everything else
2172 2011-07-14 19:21:55 <gmaxwell> hm. Perhaps the GUI could simply be a front end payment system that lets you set settings, then gives you one of my bitcoin addresses to pay me to run a pool for you with those settings. :)
2173 2011-07-14 19:22:08 <b4epoche> but, hey, if it's trivial to run a pool, then everyone could run one and we'd be back to individual mining
2174 2011-07-14 19:22:42 * gmaxwell watches b4epoche trip over the network effect.
2175 2011-07-14 19:22:53 * b4epoche starts work in solo-pool mining software
2176 2011-07-14 19:23:13 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: you could call it bitcoind. :)
2177 2011-07-14 19:23:25 <b4epoche> excellent name!
2178 2011-07-14 19:23:28 <BlueMatt> oooo
2179 2011-07-14 19:23:32 <gmaxwell> (speaking of that, is anyone working on getting the async rpc and nonce dedupe patches mainlined?)
2180 2011-07-14 19:23:33 <BlueMatt> this sounds good
2181 2011-07-14 19:23:47 heinz` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2182 2011-07-14 19:23:49 <BlueMatt> nonce dedupe will probably be 0.4 if it gets acked
2183 2011-07-14 19:23:58 <BlueMatt> async rpc, I cant really say the status...
2184 2011-07-14 19:24:07 <gmaxwell> yea.. it scares me.
2185 2011-07-14 19:24:10 <gmaxwell> It's hard to test.
2186 2011-07-14 19:24:16 <BlueMatt> yea
2187 2011-07-14 19:24:26 <BlueMatt> well Id say dont thread it until its cleaned up a ton
2188 2011-07-14 19:24:27 <Zagitta> Where would the place be to find an unhashed block header aswell as the hash of it? :)
2189 2011-07-14 19:24:58 <gmaxwell> I've run a version of something like that for solomining... but god knows if things other than getwork are really deadlock free.
2190 2011-07-14 19:25:01 kish_ has joined
2191 2011-07-14 19:25:04 <mtrlt> blockexplorer, but you have to construct the header yourself from the raw data :p
2192 2011-07-14 19:25:27 <mtrlt> at least that's what i did. fortunately i had to do that only once.
2193 2011-07-14 19:25:38 kish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2194 2011-07-14 19:26:49 <Zagitta> mtrlt: sounds like having to write code to get a hash to debug some other code you're unsure about wether or not works, is a brilliant plan :p
2195 2011-07-14 19:27:10 <mtrlt> yep
2196 2011-07-14 19:29:59 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2197 2011-07-14 19:30:16 <Zagitta> mtrlt: that code shouldn't happen to be easy for you to modify slightly so you can give me the header of the latest block for a small fee? :)
2198 2011-07-14 19:31:49 <mtrlt> i didn't use code and don't really remember how to do it any more :P
2199 2011-07-14 19:32:00 <mtrlt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm read that and then fetch a raw block from blockexplorer :P
2200 2011-07-14 19:33:03 <Zagitta> oh, looks easier than i thought... thansk!
2201 2011-07-14 19:33:56 Burgundy has joined
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2204 2011-07-14 19:39:48 <Zagitta> my god this little/big edian swapping is a pain in the ass!
2205 2011-07-14 19:39:58 <mtrlt> oh, you noticed that too! :-)
2206 2011-07-14 19:40:07 <mtrlt> took me three days to sort that out :P
2207 2011-07-14 19:40:27 <AndyBr> yay, restarted a pc with 50 VMs by mistake. FML
2208 2011-07-14 19:43:52 peck has joined
2209 2011-07-14 19:45:05 bittwist has joined
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2211 2011-07-14 19:46:51 <b4epoche> HP on woot-off
2212 2011-07-14 19:47:11 <b4epoche> probably not a bad box for Linux
2213 2011-07-14 19:50:44 <b4epoche> well those went quick
2214 2011-07-14 19:51:43 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
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2219 2011-07-14 19:58:11 <Zagitta> lol wth, i just got 0.08 coins from an unknown source
2220 2011-07-14 19:59:22 <BlueMatt> you can always send them this way if you dont want them
2221 2011-07-14 19:59:29 <chinaskibit> lol
2222 2011-07-14 19:59:48 * BlueMatt doesnt complain about free money ;)
2223 2011-07-14 20:00:17 <AndyBr> hmm, trying to figure out some network load balancing stuff and not working. how can i ask my gateway "who do you think owns the ip address xyz"?
2224 2011-07-14 20:01:10 <Zagitta> i'm not complaining, i just wonder where i got them from because it's an address i've only used for eligius but i have been mining there for the past week so i'm not inactive or anything...
2225 2011-07-14 20:01:12 <clr_> Whois?
2226 2011-07-14 20:01:24 <sipa> AndyBr: and what kind of answer would you want?
2227 2011-07-14 20:01:55 <BlueMatt> AndyBr: depending on what you are asking about route -n or arp -n
2228 2011-07-14 20:02:40 <AndyBr> sipa: well, i have 2 virtual machines on the same physical server behind a router in the data centre. they both have the same ip address set on an adapter, but dont seem to get any traffic
2229 2011-07-14 20:03:03 <BlueMatt> probably do tcpdump on the vm host, then on the router, etc, etc
2230 2011-07-14 20:03:06 <BlueMatt> and arp -n
2231 2011-07-14 20:03:09 <AndyBr> so i was wondering if i could ask the gateway/router in data centre who it thinks the ip belongs to, which i guess is -nobody-
2232 2011-07-14 20:03:12 <BlueMatt> see if you are getting arp through first of all
2233 2011-07-14 20:03:16 <AndyBr> ok
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2241 2011-07-14 20:16:24 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r145 /branches/peergroup/src/com/google/bitcoin/ (10 files in 2 dirs): PeerGroup cleanup http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r145/
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2248 2011-07-14 20:24:40 <Zagitta> having to reverse the individual parts of the block header is a pain in the ass
2249 2011-07-14 20:24:41 TD_ has joined
2250 2011-07-14 20:26:53 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes, some miners will inevitably put crap in the block chain
2251 2011-07-14 20:27:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: theymos and nanotube wanted to set up a formal system for spamming the block chain, even
2252 2011-07-14 20:27:37 <BlueMatt> since when did theymos and nanotube want that, I know UukGoblin did, but theymos?
2253 2011-07-14 20:27:58 <BlueMatt> still its a simple solution to punish bad miners
2254 2011-07-14 20:29:35 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/7c2766cd6c669614129840df57512af3f9c5f40b9e75e453931c0caede2fdfb5  < more obvious crap (all addresses begin with 18?) but this one doesn't appear to be luke's fault.
2255 2011-07-14 20:29:49 agricocb has joined
2256 2011-07-14 20:30:06 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: http://privwiki.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Bitcoin_DNS_System_Proposal
2257 2011-07-14 20:30:07 <gmaxwell> (thats from cydeweys #bitcoin, apparently there is one of those txn per hour)
2258 2011-07-14 20:30:22 Beccara has joined
2259 2011-07-14 20:30:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: they were big proponents of "pay miners to store non-currency data in block chain"
2260 2011-07-14 20:30:48 <jgarzik> i.e. just use bitcoin as a pay-for-storage system
2261 2011-07-14 20:32:05 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well that is different than luke not getting paid to store crap
2262 2011-07-14 20:32:07 <BlueMatt> like he is now
2263 2011-07-14 20:32:19 <BlueMatt> though that was before we had an elegant secondary chain solution
2264 2011-07-14 20:32:37 <BlueMatt> which we now do, and I dont think nanotube and Im sure not theymos agree with the original dns stuff anymore
2265 2011-07-14 20:32:38 <UukGoblin> spamming is the wrong word
2266 2011-07-14 20:32:50 <BlueMatt> no, its exactly the right word
2267 2011-07-14 20:33:02 Clipse-b has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2268 2011-07-14 20:33:32 <UukGoblin> interesting pov
2269 2011-07-14 20:35:02 <sipa> it's like entering a football stadion with some people and hoping those people watching the match don't mind you having a concert there
2270 2011-07-14 20:36:06 <UukGoblin> it's unrelated in my opinion, but I can see why you think that
2271 2011-07-14 20:36:12 <sipa> it's both useful purposes for a stadion
2272 2011-07-14 20:36:22 <denisx> Iam getting an ipv6 adress with /64 in the next days
2273 2011-07-14 20:36:30 <denisx> what is capable of using it already?
2274 2011-07-14 20:36:39 <denisx> bitcoind itself?
2275 2011-07-14 20:36:44 <sipa> not yet
2276 2011-07-14 20:36:58 <UukGoblin> denisx, google
2277 2011-07-14 20:37:07 <denisx> UukGoblin: no, I like smalltalk! ;)
2278 2011-07-14 20:37:13 <UukGoblin> denisx, you can go to ipv6.google.com
2279 2011-07-14 20:37:35 <gmaxwell> spamming is the right word, because its the process of imposing costs on unwilling third parties for your benefit against their will.
2280 2011-07-14 20:37:43 <denisx> UukGoblin: ah, I only want to know what bitcoin tools can handle ipv6
2281 2011-07-14 20:37:50 <UukGoblin> denisx, hang on, by smalltalk did you actually mean "small talk" there?
2282 2011-07-14 20:37:58 <Dagger2> or set ordns.he.net as your DNS resolver, and get AAAA records on www.google.com itself
2283 2011-07-14 20:38:07 <UukGoblin> as in, peptalk, rather than the programming language?
2284 2011-07-14 20:38:36 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin users have implicitly agreed to take money transactions— since thats the prereq for bitcoin to work as a system. Other random stuff can neatly be put in secondary chains without burdening everyone else.
2285 2011-07-14 20:38:43 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: so, getting back to the subject, miners will do some mindly annoying things.  if it becomes a problem rather than an annoyance, we can discuss with the community the best course of action.  a lot of people still run 0.3.19 because they did not like satoshi's isStandard() choice for example, so, rejecting annoying blocks would be a -major- deviation from previous bitcoin design and would have a large impact.
2286 2011-07-14 20:38:54 <jgarzik> that's a big deal, and not worth changing for a few annoying blocks
2287 2011-07-14 20:39:09 <jgarzik> if it becomes a -lot- of annoying blocks, discuss w/ community the best action
2288 2011-07-14 20:39:21 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the idea wasnt to reject anoying blocks
2289 2011-07-14 20:39:24 <BlueMatt> only to not relay them
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2291 2011-07-14 20:39:36 <gmaxwell> (or rather— delay relaying them until someone else extended them)
2292 2011-07-14 20:39:37 <jgarzik> same basic net effect
2293 2011-07-14 20:39:39 <BlueMatt> but I see your point
2294 2011-07-14 20:39:43 <BlueMatt> not really
2295 2011-07-14 20:39:45 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2298 2011-07-14 20:40:03 <gmaxwell> regardless... it wouldn't be something to jump into rashly I agree.
2299 2011-07-14 20:40:06 <sipa> i don't see the difference between not relaying and rejecting
2300 2011-07-14 20:40:24 <gmaxwell> because if it's a rejection rule then it needs to be globally consistent.
2301 2011-07-14 20:40:24 <BlueMatt> rejecting means it will never be accepted, not relaying doesnt at all
2302 2011-07-14 20:40:49 <sipa> right, isee
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2304 2011-07-14 20:40:59 <gmaxwell> I could be running a non-relaying node today and be creating that disadvantage for misbehavers already. There doesn't need to be a flagday^wblock
2305 2011-07-14 20:41:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: forstalling the discussion until it's enough of an issue is perhaps silly when it's so cheap to make it an issue.. it should cost .08388608 BTC per 1MB block eligius produces.
2306 2011-07-14 20:42:16 <coderrr> what was isStandard() for ?
2307 2011-07-14 20:42:17 <gmaxwell> So, e.g. if I were really interested in making the discussion happen I could start triggering that right now.
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2309 2011-07-14 20:43:41 <jgarzik> coderrr: whitelisting transaction patterns, rather than blacklisting bad ones
2310 2011-07-14 20:43:49 <coderrr> ah
2311 2011-07-14 20:44:11 <jgarzik> coderrr: basically prevents default client from creating non-standard transactions, even though miners may still accept non-standard TX's directly as always
2312 2011-07-14 20:44:24 <UukGoblin> imho the best course of action is to let miners decide
2313 2011-07-14 20:44:28 <UukGoblin> it's them who run the network
2314 2011-07-14 20:44:33 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: you are mistaken
2315 2011-07-14 20:44:34 <gmaxwell> ...
2316 2011-07-14 20:44:38 <UukGoblin> so in terms of code: make it configurable
2317 2011-07-14 20:44:43 <gmaxwell> The miners explicitly do not run the network.
2318 2011-07-14 20:44:47 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: that is a fundamental misunderstanding of how bitcoin works
2319 2011-07-14 20:44:56 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is a decentralized system. No one runs the network.
2320 2011-07-14 20:45:17 <gmaxwell> Miner's influence is quite limited, and very intentionally so.
2321 2011-07-14 20:45:25 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, I didn't say "a miner runs the network"
2322 2011-07-14 20:45:27 <BlueMatt> not limited enough imo
2323 2011-07-14 20:45:33 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: if, e.g., a miner with 90% network power starts making blocks that give themselves 100 BTC per block, they simply self-select themselves away from the network
2324 2011-07-14 20:45:48 <jgarzik> it matters what -clients- (i.e. users) will accept and relay
2325 2011-07-14 20:46:02 <jgarzik> bitcoin users, en masse, make the rules, which miners validate and reinforce
2326 2011-07-14 20:48:35 <AndyBr> how would you provide a bitcoin service that relies on bitcoind but stays alive if the server with bitcoind on it crashes? store wallet on SAN and start bitcoind on a secondary server?
2327 2011-07-14 20:48:41 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, agreed, users make the rules, miners make the blockchain
2328 2011-07-14 20:48:51 <UukGoblin> "Who runs it" is a bad question
2329 2011-07-14 20:49:09 b4epoche_ has joined
2330 2011-07-14 20:49:24 <UukGoblin> so to restate my "imho" bit: make it configurable so that both users and miners can choose for themselves what they think is best
2331 2011-07-14 20:49:32 <BlueMatt> AndyBr: how you do provide a service if the serer running the service crashes is nothing bitcoin-specific
2332 2011-07-14 20:49:40 <BlueMatt> AndyBr: and the general rules here apply
2333 2011-07-14 20:49:41 <UukGoblin> knowing that if they choose wrong, they'll create a split network and alienate themselves from the mainstream
2334 2011-07-14 20:50:22 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: the problem with that is there are many things in bitcoin where the best choice for the user is very different from the best choice for the network
2335 2011-07-14 20:50:39 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, agreed, and different from the best choice for the miner
2336 2011-07-14 20:50:40 <AndyBr> BlueMatt: well, if this was a db server, i'd have the DB on a SAN and there wouldn't really be a problem, but i was told i cant have 2 servers running bitcoind with a shared datadir
2337 2011-07-14 20:50:59 <UukGoblin> (unless we think of user==miner)
2338 2011-07-14 20:51:05 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: so letting the users chose very easily is not the best solution
2339 2011-07-14 20:51:13 <UukGoblin> (or users.contain(miner))
2340 2011-07-14 20:51:19 <sipa> satoshi surely intended to have as many nodes be miners as possible
2341 2011-07-14 20:51:31 <sipa> inevitably, it's becoming less and less the case
2342 2011-07-14 20:51:39 <jgarzik> sipa: yes :(
2343 2011-07-14 20:51:44 <BlueMatt> yep
2344 2011-07-14 20:51:55 <UukGoblin> that is a very good point
2345 2011-07-14 20:52:26 sanchaz has joined
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2347 2011-07-14 20:52:35 <UukGoblin> it's very difficult to say what's "best" in general
2348 2011-07-14 20:52:47 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2349 2011-07-14 20:55:48 <gmaxwell> In any case, what was proposed earlier was letting miners effectively vote on a dynamic maximum block size (either a soft limit, or a hard one) less than the protocol enforced hard one, in order to discourage trouble making miners from minting jumbo blocks.
2350 2011-07-14 20:56:18 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, hmm, kinda like difficulty?
2351 2011-07-14 20:56:34 Guest72992 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2352 2011-07-14 20:56:37 <UukGoblin> that's interesting.. I like it
2353 2011-07-14 20:56:47 <BlueMatt> no, not at all like diff
2354 2011-07-14 20:56:53 <gmaxwell> Actually more like the minimum acceptable timestamp.
2355 2011-07-14 20:56:54 <BlueMatt> well sort of remotely
2356 2011-07-14 20:57:22 <gmaxwell> The minimum acceptable timestamp is one larger than the median of the prior 11 blocks.
2357 2011-07-14 20:57:28 <UukGoblin> mhm
2358 2011-07-14 20:57:36 <UukGoblin> yeah, that's nice
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2360 2011-07-14 20:58:09 <Ramen> why is a jumbo block a bad thing?
2361 2011-07-14 20:58:16 <UukGoblin> so, take the median or mean size of the last N blocks and multiply it by some k and there's your maximum
2362 2011-07-14 20:58:29 <UukGoblin> Ramen, one isn't, a gazillion is
2363 2011-07-14 20:58:32 <gmaxwell> Ramen: because it must be stored forever and processed by all full nodes.
2364 2011-07-14 20:58:50 erus`_ has joined
2365 2011-07-14 20:59:00 <gmaxwell> Right, one isn't an issue, producing many creates problems quickly. If they are full of good transactions then they are good problems to have because it means bitcoin is growing.
2366 2011-07-14 20:59:07 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, not exactly true, it might get purged
2367 2011-07-14 20:59:23 <gmaxwell> Not if the junk transactions have random number addresses. :(
2368 2011-07-14 20:59:44 <gmaxwell> (for the outputs)
2369 2011-07-14 20:59:58 <UukGoblin> nope, not then
2370 2011-07-14 21:00:13 <gmaxwell> If they are just crap created to be disruptive, then its bad.
2371 2011-07-14 21:00:14 <Ramen> why not just mint the number of current unprocessed transactions?
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2373 2011-07-14 21:00:21 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2374 2011-07-14 21:00:21 <UukGoblin> (that's why I prefer purgable 0-value outputs to "coin burning")
2375 2011-07-14 21:00:26 erus`_ is now known as erus`
2376 2011-07-14 21:00:46 <gmaxwell> amusingly eligius won't mine 0 value output txn according to luke.
2377 2011-07-14 21:00:47 <denisx> jgarzik: is pushpool ipv6 ready?
2378 2011-07-14 21:00:55 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2379 2011-07-14 21:01:05 <jgarzik> denisx: should be
2380 2011-07-14 21:01:16 <denisx> jgarzik: anybody tried already?
2381 2011-07-14 21:01:17 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, well, his loss ;-]
2382 2011-07-14 21:01:36 sanchaz has joined
2383 2011-07-14 21:01:49 <OneTimePad> is bitcoins.lc using pushpool for their back end? they have ipv6 enabled.
2384 2011-07-14 21:01:53 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: no, sadly. _everyone's loss_.
2385 2011-07-14 21:02:04 <UukGoblin> one of the biggest problems imho is that generally every miner should have a simple strategy: accept transactions with a fee, drop transactions without a fee (unless you're feeling nice)
2386 2011-07-14 21:02:25 <jine> OneTimePad: Yes we did, how ever - we do NOT have ipv6 anymore. Due to loadbalancing and stuff.
2387 2011-07-14 21:02:30 <gmaxwell> no... thats not good right now.
2388 2011-07-14 21:02:36 <jine> It's on it's way up, but the lack of v6 support in pfSense sucks.
2389 2011-07-14 21:02:42 <gmaxwell> It's not about feeling nice, its about promoting the success of bitcoin.
2390 2011-07-14 21:02:45 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: that just discourages bitcoin users.  miners have an incentive to bring users into the bitcoin world.
2391 2011-07-14 21:02:54 <jine> When 2.1 is released (within a month or so) we'll turn it on again.
2392 2011-07-14 21:02:54 <UukGoblin> even if a transaction has a too small fee, it's more profitable for the miner to include it
2393 2011-07-14 21:02:58 <gmaxwell> also, luke imposes a fee, for all txn, but it's so darn tiny that it doesn't matter.
2394 2011-07-14 21:03:06 <OneTimePad> jine: good to know. There you go denisx: they used pushpool and used to have ipv6.
2395 2011-07-14 21:03:08 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, right now, yes
2396 2011-07-14 21:03:15 wardearia has joined
2397 2011-07-14 21:03:15 <denisx> ok
2398 2011-07-14 21:03:17 <gmaxwell> well, we're talking about right now.
2399 2011-07-14 21:03:21 <jgarzik> indeed
2400 2011-07-14 21:03:30 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, in the long term, this simple strategy should be the best one for the miner (not for the network or users)
2401 2011-07-14 21:03:38 <UukGoblin> oh
2402 2011-07-14 21:04:24 <UukGoblin> right now I need the price to start rallying up again ;-]
2403 2011-07-14 21:04:38 <gmaxwell> also, the maximum size thing I suggested would have the property of preventing a few overly generous low capacity miners from completely thwarting market force in setting a minimum fee in the future.
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2405 2011-07-14 21:05:46 <BlueMatt> its an elegant solution to the downward-fee-spiral too
2406 2011-07-14 21:05:49 <BlueMatt> well not a solution
2407 2011-07-14 21:05:52 <BlueMatt> but it helps
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2411 2011-07-14 21:06:33 <gmaxwell> e.g. in 2020 most miners want to have a minimum fee of 0.00001 BTC, but one small miner mines everything with any fee, up the biggest block the network will accept at the time. undermining the fee.  But having a dynamic maximum his ability to do that will be more bounded.
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2414 2011-07-14 21:06:50 <BlueMatt> yep
2415 2011-07-14 21:06:58 <BlueMatt> TD_: have comments?
2416 2011-07-14 21:07:40 <UukGoblin> I like it (if that matters at all these days)
2417 2011-07-14 21:07:47 <TD_> i didn't see the proposal
2418 2011-07-14 21:08:07 <BlueMatt> TD_: dynamically shift maximum block size based on median of recent block sizes
2419 2011-07-14 21:08:13 TD_ is now known as TD
2420 2011-07-14 21:08:16 <BlueMatt> yea it doesnt solve downward-fee-spiral
2421 2011-07-14 21:08:20 <BlueMatt> but it might help
2422 2011-07-14 21:08:27 <BlueMatt> it was proposed as a spam measure
2423 2011-07-14 21:08:37 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, sorry what's the downward-fee-spiral problem?
2424 2011-07-14 21:08:37 <TD> i see that as a solution to buggy or malicious miners rather than fees
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2427 2011-07-14 21:09:00 <BlueMatt> TD: I agree, but it could help with the fee problem
2428 2011-07-14 21:09:07 <BlueMatt> makes it a bit harder to get into blocks sometimes
2429 2011-07-14 21:09:09 <TD> i think [D]ACs are probably the way forward on fees. but stefan believes it's too far out to try and solve completely now
2430 2011-07-14 21:09:15 <TD> and i can't say he's totally wrong
2431 2011-07-14 21:09:18 <gmaxwell> Impose a limit on the maximum size of a block, set as the median of the last N, times some factor M.  Subject to some minimum and maximum clamp.    The limit can also be done as a soft form: don't relay blocks at the top of chain that fail the rule, wait until they're one block burried before relaying them. (avoids the flag day, but it's less powerful)
2432 2011-07-14 21:09:21 rynx has joined
2433 2011-07-14 21:09:26 <TD> i don't think we want to deliberately slow down transactions to try and make people pay fees
2434 2011-07-14 21:09:43 devrandom has joined
2435 2011-07-14 21:09:44 groffer has joined
2436 2011-07-14 21:10:02 <BlueMatt> TD: well it doesnt slow them down much, maybe by a block or two
2437 2011-07-14 21:10:06 BTCTrader has joined
2438 2011-07-14 21:10:07 * TD shrug
2439 2011-07-14 21:10:08 <gmaxwell> TD: the issue we were discussing today is that eligius' stupid fee policy is resulting in multiple hundred kilobyte blocks filled with txn that have >1000 1e-8 outputs to cute looking addresses.
2440 2011-07-14 21:10:10 <BlueMatt> which really shouldnt matter much
2441 2011-07-14 21:10:19 <TD> example?
2442 2011-07-14 21:10:40 <TD> people are doing stego via eligius?
2443 2011-07-14 21:10:40 <UukGoblin> actually, it doesn't solve one problem...
2444 2011-07-14 21:10:54 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/e79a1bb8c40023219e9247464ac15c02d2c2d784d4f0a025be8958e8d25a052e < one with names in the addresses.
2445 2011-07-14 21:11:19 <TD> lol
2446 2011-07-14 21:11:19 <UukGoblin> if spammers decide they want to store spam in the blockchain, they'll mine blocks with spam, which will increase the median slowly over time
2447 2011-07-14 21:11:39 <OneTimePad> I saw some other ones where it was like 185v 185w 185x 185y 185z. Are these people just trying to get all the firstbits or are they spamming?
2448 2011-07-14 21:11:43 <TD> how silly
2449 2011-07-14 21:11:46 <UukGoblin> they'll artificially want to add spam just to make the median block size bigger
2450 2011-07-14 21:11:48 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ae4409fabfce84cc9f665f16b5a6219ca8b708fdbed7264adbb7b6053cdfb1c1 < 500 outputs with cute addresses
2451 2011-07-14 21:11:54 <BlueMatt> but if the good miners dont mine spam, they wont get the increase
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2453 2011-07-14 21:12:13 <TD> why are they doing that ?
2454 2011-07-14 21:12:28 Gonzago has quit ()
2455 2011-07-14 21:12:46 <UukGoblin> TD, because they can(tm)
2456 2011-07-14 21:12:50 <TD> fortunately verifying the tx is still fairly cheap. it's just a waste of disk space.
2457 2011-07-14 21:13:00 <TD> they'll get bored of it soon i'm sure
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2461 2011-07-14 21:13:24 <UukGoblin> TD, not all of them
2462 2011-07-14 21:13:33 <UukGoblin> there'll always be script kiddies and the like
2463 2011-07-14 21:13:35 <BlueMatt> TD: I kind of doubt that
2464 2011-07-14 21:13:45 <gmaxwell> td: it's pretty cheap to generate these, .. you can inflate the open output count pretty quickly this way.
2465 2011-07-14 21:13:48 BlueMattBot is now known as Guest35002
2466 2011-07-14 21:13:49 <BlueMatt> you should never underestimate the ability of people on the internet to just keep doing shit
2467 2011-07-14 21:14:01 <BlueMatt> why is my bot not authing...
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2469 2011-07-14 21:14:15 <TD> i think it's worth keeping some perspective though. we're talking about a 17kb data structure. the reason we're so sensitive to block size today is the software people are using isn't scalable
2470 2011-07-14 21:14:38 <TD> coming up with complicated policies to stop people creating basically tiny data structures seems like the wrong solution to me
2471 2011-07-14 21:14:40 <gmaxwell> thats one transaction out of a half dozen like it in that block.
2472 2011-07-14 21:14:45 Bachfischer has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
2473 2011-07-14 21:14:53 <BlueMatt> its not a complicated policy
2474 2011-07-14 21:14:54 <OneTimePad> Wasn't this the original reason sendmany was not in the client, it allowed transactions to have many outputs to increase its size instead of sending 500 transactions, it sends one nice big one? An alternate way to spam?
2475 2011-07-14 21:15:08 <gmaxwell> Even as the software improves, bitcoin's decenteralized security depends on there still being a large number of full nodes.
2476 2011-07-14 21:15:08 <BlueMatt> plus it could actually mean lighter min fees as people will have to compete for block space
2477 2011-07-14 21:15:27 <gmaxwell> That 200k block consumed >10gbytes of disk space on the distributed network.
2478 2011-07-14 21:15:57 Guest35002 has quit (Client Quit)
2479 2011-07-14 21:16:07 <gmaxwell> And thats never going to go down, because even when more clients have lite nodes, we'll still need there to be tens of thousands of full nodes for security.
2480 2011-07-14 21:16:33 <TD> maybe
2481 2011-07-14 21:16:41 <TD> i don't think anyone knows how many nodes are needed, really
2482 2011-07-14 21:16:51 <TD> but even if they are, those nodes will be beefy servers. perhaps distributed systems.
2483 2011-07-14 21:17:01 <gmaxwell> If it were 10gbytes of space used for real bitcoin transactions— well, thats what we all signed up for... that much real bitcoin activity is good for all users. If it's 10gbytes for lulz, then that isn't.
2484 2011-07-14 21:17:08 <TD> pretty much everything on the internet has to deal with crap and background noise
2485 2011-07-14 21:17:15 <TD> web servers .... mail servers .... IM networks
2486 2011-07-14 21:17:31 <BlueMatt> but they can deal with it without too much permanent load
2487 2011-07-14 21:17:31 <gmaxwell> Yes, and we're talking about a way of dealing with crap—
2488 2011-07-14 21:17:36 <TD> when this came up before i suggested deleting txns that you know can't be spent
2489 2011-07-14 21:17:49 <TD> the problem here is what happens if 1EtheL.... spends her coin?
2490 2011-07-14 21:17:50 MC-Eeepc has joined
2491 2011-07-14 21:17:52 <gmaxwell> how can we tell those can't be spent?  .. right.
2492 2011-07-14 21:17:58 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, there are still real bitcoin transactions, these addresses are probably redeemable
2493 2011-07-14 21:18:29 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: they might be yes, but we do know this is a trouble making txn rather than real economic activity.
2494 2011-07-14 21:18:30 <UukGoblin> s/there/these/
2495 2011-07-14 21:18:34 <TD> so i'd suggest just sucking it up. treat it like having your web site crawled by some obscure search engine spider
2496 2011-07-14 21:18:58 <gmaxwell> TD: I block broken spiders when they screw up my site.. happens about once a year or so.
2497 2011-07-14 21:19:10 <TD> and the times they don't screw it up but just add load?
2498 2011-07-14 21:19:18 <TD> most people just let it be.
2499 2011-07-14 21:19:18 <gmaxwell> Right now, there is a perverse incentive for miners to seriously undercut the reasonable rules of all the other miners.
2500 2011-07-14 21:19:45 <TD> maybe ask luke-jr to detect and block these transactions
2501 2011-07-14 21:19:51 <TD> if it's a big bother
2502 2011-07-14 21:19:53 <gmaxwell> so, e.g. miners can't effectively impose reasonable anti-spam measures because it takes only one luke-jr to moot them.
2503 2011-07-14 21:20:08 <TD> i mean the guy has spent a few dollars on graffiti, it seems
2504 2011-07-14 21:20:14 <OneTimePad> The new vanitygen tool makes it easy to create addresses with the private key. Everyone one of those are potentially spendable.
2505 2011-07-14 21:20:17 <gmaxwell> but if luke were subject to a dynamic maximum block size, he'd solve this on his own. :)
2506 2011-07-14 21:20:26 <gmaxwell> OneTimePad: yes, I mentioned this earlier.
2507 2011-07-14 21:20:30 <TD> why? you'd just be upset about troll transactions that were smaller
2508 2011-07-14 21:20:54 <gmaxwell> er, no I wouldn't.
2509 2011-07-14 21:21:37 <gmaxwell> And I'm not upset. I started the whole conversation pointing out that luke is letting you add 1MB to the blockchain for .08388608 btc...
2510 2011-07-14 21:21:46 <gmaxwell> which is too low to actually discourage someone from doing it.
2511 2011-07-14 21:22:45 <OneTimePad> How do you know it's not luke-jr doing it? If he gets the fee back, he can increase the block size for basically free.
2512 2011-07-14 21:23:03 <gmaxwell> OneTimePad: he's doing it too, in fact, but less evilly.
2513 2011-07-14 21:23:15 Gonzago has joined
2514 2011-07-14 21:23:39 <OneTimePad> oh, just speculating. Were the samples you showed earlier his?
2515 2011-07-14 21:23:44 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d50871077b83f7f2497a65c8ff00172c9bbfefd46cd2c4c258a2cccbad337d82 < 1512 outputs.
2516 2011-07-14 21:24:03 <gmaxwell> No fee, so... according to his rules the only way he would have mined that was if it was his.
2517 2011-07-14 21:24:15 <gmaxwell> But thats at least a legit transfer of money.
2518 2011-07-14 21:24:26 <OneTimePad> Interesting. They look completely random and none redeemed?
2519 2011-07-14 21:24:40 <gmaxwell> thought it's a bit daft, payments of 0.00003625 btc?
2520 2011-07-14 21:24:48 <kinlo> mmmz
2521 2011-07-14 21:24:51 <kinlo> so who mined that?
2522 2011-07-14 21:24:55 <kinlo> coz it has no fee's
2523 2011-07-14 21:25:17 <gmaxwell> Lukejr did, I assume it's one of his own txn— probably truing up a pool server he took offline.
2524 2011-07-14 21:25:40 <kinlo> which pool?
2525 2011-07-14 21:25:46 <gmaxwell> Eligius
2526 2011-07-14 21:25:58 <kinlo> mmmz, I'm tracking eligius...
2527 2011-07-14 21:26:10 <kinlo> isn't theirs according to my tool
2528 2011-07-14 21:26:29 <gmaxwell> You're wrong then.
2529 2011-07-14 21:26:47 <kinlo> am I?
2530 2011-07-14 21:26:49 <gmaxwell> Ah, also— that txn with 1500 outputs paid me.
2531 2011-07-14 21:27:11 <gmaxwell> ~2.5 btc which was what the shut down /3/ pool on eligius owed me IIRC.
2532 2011-07-14 21:27:37 <gmaxwell> kinlo: look the the block, besides the fact that it paid me, its obviously a coinbaser block.
2533 2011-07-14 21:27:43 skeledrew has joined
2534 2011-07-14 21:28:01 <gmaxwell> oh. got to go.
2535 2011-07-14 21:28:20 <kinlo> well, aren't blocks mined by eligius mentioned on their site?
2536 2011-07-14 21:30:04 pusle has quit ()
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2538 2011-07-14 21:32:29 skeledrew1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2539 2011-07-14 21:32:32 BTCTrader has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2541 2011-07-14 21:34:12 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2543 2011-07-14 21:41:57 b4epoche has joined
2544 2011-07-14 21:42:08 <prof7bit> any crypto experts in the house?
2545 2011-07-14 21:42:19 <prof7bit> i have 2 questions
2546 2011-07-14 21:42:38 <prof7bit> http://pastebin.com/Jr0hj8hP
2547 2011-07-14 21:43:27 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2548 2011-07-14 21:44:59 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2549 2011-07-14 21:45:25 AStove has quit ()
2550 2011-07-14 21:47:32 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2551 2011-07-14 21:47:37 <prof7bit> the questions are at line 36
2552 2011-07-14 21:49:21 <TD> BlueMatt: http://firstbits.com/ guess that explains it
2553 2011-07-14 21:50:31 <prof7bit> the code is from here: http://www.submanifold.be/triade/GInt/gint.html
2554 2011-07-14 21:51:08 <prof7bit> but there is zero documentation except the 5 lines above the function declaration
2555 2011-07-14 21:51:44 <prof7bit> so it must be pretty obvious but i don't see it.
2556 2011-07-14 21:52:11 rynx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2557 2011-07-14 21:54:21 <WakiMiko> whats the default connection limit?
2558 2011-07-14 21:55:45 MrDD has joined
2559 2011-07-14 21:55:46 <MrDD> Hey
2560 2011-07-14 21:55:52 huk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2561 2011-07-14 21:55:59 huk has joined
2562 2011-07-14 21:56:02 <MrDD> i got problem settuping mining server
2563 2011-07-14 21:56:10 gavinandresen has joined
2564 2011-07-14 21:56:27 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, did you notice the horrible quality of that npr article?
2565 2011-07-14 21:56:31 <phantomcircuit> what a joke
2566 2011-07-14 21:56:45 <MrDD> i settuped all but it is accepting only 30Gh/s
2567 2011-07-14 21:56:49 <MrDD> like its limited
2568 2011-07-14 21:56:56 <MrDD> and i need to brake that limit on root
2569 2011-07-14 21:57:38 <gavinandresen> The one with "our financial advisor and guru"?  Yup, that one was bad.  Happily bitcoin wasn't the main focus....
2570 2011-07-14 22:00:59 <prof7bit> is there any introduction into ECDSA that I could read that would explain it in relatively simple terms what it actually does and how it actually works (and whet the parameters actually mean and if there maybe even some visual representation to help understanding it bettter)?
2571 2011-07-14 22:02:25 <prof7bit> nothing?
2572 2011-07-14 22:02:27 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2573 2011-07-14 22:02:32 <prof7bit> nobody?
2574 2011-07-14 22:02:39 <phantomcircuit> lol
2575 2011-07-14 22:02:45 <phantomcircuit> i doubt that exists
2576 2011-07-14 22:04:11 <prof7bit> i basically just want to know what the parameters are and where to plug in my secret key, etc. for this i must understand what the parameters mean.
2577 2011-07-14 22:04:46 brooss has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2578 2011-07-14 22:06:15 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: NPR will -always- hate on bitcoin.  We must accept this now...
2579 2011-07-14 22:06:39 <phantomcircuit> and people wonder why the republicans go after npr funding...
2580 2011-07-14 22:06:41 <jgarzik> NPR will do so for the same reasons they hate on Ron Paul, gold bugs, and other subjects their editors consider right wing lunacy
2581 2011-07-14 22:06:45 ThomasV has joined
2582 2011-07-14 22:06:46 <MrDD> anyone know who should i ask for mining server development?
2583 2011-07-14 22:07:12 again has joined
2584 2011-07-14 22:07:15 <Ramen> what do you mean mining server dev?
2585 2011-07-14 22:07:20 huk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2586 2011-07-14 22:07:33 huk has joined
2587 2011-07-14 22:08:00 datagutt has joined
2588 2011-07-14 22:08:01 <MrDD> i mean bitcoin server development
2589 2011-07-14 22:08:03 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2590 2011-07-14 22:08:17 <MrDD> like deepbit or btcguild
2591 2011-07-14 22:08:28 <denisx>  MrDD you mean a pool?
2592 2011-07-14 22:08:36 again is now known as tower
2593 2011-07-14 22:08:38 <MrDD> yes
2594 2011-07-14 22:09:11 <prof7bit> where else should I ask? where are the experts?
2595 2011-07-14 22:09:58 <MrDD> denisx, could you help me?
2596 2011-07-14 22:10:05 harrigan has left ()
2597 2011-07-14 22:10:21 <denisx> MrDD: just ask the question and then you see if anybody can answer it
2598 2011-07-14 22:10:46 tower has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2599 2011-07-14 22:11:32 <sipa> MrDD: #bitcoin-mining
2600 2011-07-14 22:11:32 <MrDD> I need to know how can my pushpool server work without crashing when it reaches 30 GH/s speed
2601 2011-07-14 22:11:34 cdecker has joined
2602 2011-07-14 22:11:39 <sipa> haha
2603 2011-07-14 22:12:07 <denisx> MrDD: I assume it is a linux system and I only use FreeBSD
2604 2011-07-14 22:12:11 <BlueMatt> TD: ah, so just some douche who doesnt understand how bitcoin works...
2605 2011-07-14 22:12:23 <MrDD> it is on linux
2606 2011-07-14 22:12:35 <MrDD> ubuntu
2607 2011-07-14 22:12:48 <BlueMatt> TD: doesnt mean it should be accepted
2608 2011-07-14 22:12:50 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2609 2011-07-14 22:14:10 again has joined
2610 2011-07-14 22:14:58 freakazo_ is now known as freakazoid
2611 2011-07-14 22:15:08 Nexus7 has quit ()
2612 2011-07-14 22:16:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: what are you talking about?
2613 2011-07-14 22:16:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: <TD> BlueMatt: http://firstbits.com/ guess that explains it
2614 2011-07-14 22:16:37 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2615 2011-07-14 22:16:42 wardearia has quit (K-Lined)
2616 2011-07-14 22:17:29 again is now known as tower
2617 2011-07-14 22:17:47 <sipa> ah, that's the reason for the many small transactions to tons of different addresses?
2618 2011-07-14 22:20:07 abadr has joined
2619 2011-07-14 22:20:43 wardearia has joined
2620 2011-07-14 22:21:20 BlueMattBot has joined
2621 2011-07-14 22:21:26 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
2622 2011-07-14 22:21:43 abadr has quit (Client Quit)
2623 2011-07-14 22:22:01 <IO-> if I needed to stress test a pool server cluster, what would be the easiest way?
2624 2011-07-14 22:22:34 <MrDD> IO do you know how to max your limit for pool server
2625 2011-07-14 22:22:39 <MrDD> so it doesnt crash
2626 2011-07-14 22:22:43 macintosh264 has joined
2627 2011-07-14 22:22:50 <MrDD> and reaches more then 30 Gh7s
2628 2011-07-14 22:22:51 <sipa> the most demanding things for a pool server are probably giving work, and updating databases
2629 2011-07-14 22:22:53 wardearia has quit (K-Lined)
2630 2011-07-14 22:23:07 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2631 2011-07-14 22:23:11 <MrSam> curl
2632 2011-07-14 22:23:17 <IO-> MrDD: how
2633 2011-07-14 22:23:18 <MrSam> but
2634 2011-07-14 22:23:23 <MrSam> if you give me your ip
2635 2011-07-14 22:23:29 <MrSam> i have a ddos atm of valid traffic
2636 2011-07-14 22:23:34 <MrSam> i can redirect it your way
2637 2011-07-14 22:23:39 <MrSam> ideal for testing
2638 2011-07-14 22:24:02 <IO-> is that traffc http / gets for work or just a ddos of tcp shit ?
2639 2011-07-14 22:24:13 <MrSam> getwork and share submit
2640 2011-07-14 22:24:16 <MrSam> 30k clients
2641 2011-07-14 22:24:19 <IO-> perfect
2642 2011-07-14 22:24:21 <MrSam> but only 3gh's or so
2643 2011-07-14 22:24:41 <MrSam> so i'm blocking it at my nginx
2644 2011-07-14 22:24:55 <[Tycho]> MrSam, what's your pool ?
2645 2011-07-14 22:24:58 <IO-> worker L&P's are a problem though
2646 2011-07-14 22:25:16 <MrSam> nah
2647 2011-07-14 22:25:17 <MrSam> sec
2648 2011-07-14 22:25:26 macintosh264 has quit (Client Quit)
2649 2011-07-14 22:26:00 <MrSam> | username                | password   |
2650 2011-07-14 22:26:00 <MrSam> +-------------------------+------------+
2651 2011-07-14 22:26:00 <MrSam> | udri_yocaniseeyourboobs | lolbitches |
2652 2011-07-14 22:26:07 <MrSam> all under one username :)
2653 2011-07-14 22:26:15 <IO-> perfect!
2654 2011-07-14 22:26:17 <IO-> one min..
2655 2011-07-14 22:26:17 <MrSam> i know
2656 2011-07-14 22:26:23 <MrSam> i'm using it as well for tests
2657 2011-07-14 22:26:29 <MrSam> but cant figure out how to handle it
2658 2011-07-14 22:26:40 sanchaz has joined
2659 2011-07-14 22:26:40 sanchaz has quit (Changing host)
2660 2011-07-14 22:26:40 sanchaz has joined
2661 2011-07-14 22:26:43 brunner has joined
2662 2011-07-14 22:26:45 <MrSam> i hope he stays a long time :P
2663 2011-07-14 22:27:07 sanity has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2664 2011-07-14 22:27:08 <[Tycho]> MrSam, CPUmining botnet ?
2665 2011-07-14 22:27:33 <MrSam> yeah
2666 2011-07-14 22:27:51 <[Tycho]> MrSam, what's your pool ?
2667 2011-07-14 22:28:05 Joric has joined
2668 2011-07-14 22:28:20 <MrDD> MrSam
2669 2011-07-14 22:28:25 <MrDD> do you know how to get limits up
2670 2011-07-14 22:28:29 <MrDD> and make it not crashing
2671 2011-07-14 22:28:31 <b4epoche> seriously, there are CPU mining botnets?
2672 2011-07-14 22:28:38 <MrDD> for 30GH/s CPU
2673 2011-07-14 22:28:49 <sipa> we've seen worse :)
2674 2011-07-14 22:29:20 <[Tycho]> b4epoche, yes.
2675 2011-07-14 22:29:39 <MrSam> sec
2676 2011-07-14 22:29:43 <MrSam> i'll give the ips
2677 2011-07-14 22:29:44 <MrSam> :)
2678 2011-07-14 22:29:55 <TD> how many nodes?
2679 2011-07-14 22:29:56 <MrDD> Tycho, how did you made your server to not crash
2680 2011-07-14 22:30:01 <MrDD> on CPU miniers
2681 2011-07-14 22:30:06 <MrSam> TD: shitload
2682 2011-07-14 22:30:13 <[Tycho]> MrDD, I don't use pushpools.
2683 2011-07-14 22:30:26 <MrDD> deepbit?
2684 2011-07-14 22:30:31 <[Tycho]> Yes.
2685 2011-07-14 22:30:36 <MrDD> not pushpool?
2686 2011-07-14 22:30:39 <jgarzik> MrDD: what crash do you see?
2687 2011-07-14 22:30:45 <[Tycho]> Yes, not pushpool.
2688 2011-07-14 22:30:52 <IO-> [Tycho]: I'll sell you a 5 year old blond boy for your pool software. he's my first born.
2689 2011-07-14 22:30:56 <MrDD> so what do u use?
2690 2011-07-14 22:31:07 <sipa> IO-: lol
2691 2011-07-14 22:31:08 <[Tycho]> But since last update my pool is not compatible with Ufasoft's miner.
2692 2011-07-14 22:31:16 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2693 2011-07-14 22:31:18 <[Tycho]> MrDD, my own custom software.
2694 2011-07-14 22:31:29 <MrSam> http://root.oinks.be/list
2695 2011-07-14 22:31:32 abadr has joined
2696 2011-07-14 22:31:35 <MrSam> this is from yesterday :)
2697 2011-07-14 22:31:38 <MrDD> I see Tycho
2698 2011-07-14 22:31:40 kermit has joined
2699 2011-07-14 22:31:43 <MrSam> when i tought 0routing would work
2700 2011-07-14 22:32:04 <b4epoche> so you finally listened to BlueMatt ?
2701 2011-07-14 22:32:10 <MrSam> hehe :)
2702 2011-07-14 22:32:14 <MrSam> not really
2703 2011-07-14 22:32:19 <MrSam> he tought iptables was a good idea
2704 2011-07-14 22:32:38 <jgarzik> you want ipsets
2705 2011-07-14 22:32:41 <[Tycho]> MrSam, that's strange. Some botnets tried to mine at deepbit, but never reached 30k nodes.
2706 2011-07-14 22:32:46 <TD> if the botnet is so big i wonder why he doesn't solo mine
2707 2011-07-14 22:32:56 <MrDD> TD
2708 2011-07-14 22:32:56 <MrSam> well, there http user agent was something like
2709 2011-07-14 22:32:58 <MrDD> i am solo mining
2710 2011-07-14 22:33:04 <sipa> TD: because he can't set up an own pool? :)
2711 2011-07-14 22:33:05 <MrSam> if ($http_user_agent ~ "Ufasof-special-for-deepbit-workaround" ) {
2712 2011-07-14 22:33:05 <MrDD> with botnet
2713 2011-07-14 22:33:10 <MrDD> but its crashing!
2714 2011-07-14 22:33:14 <MrDD> cant solo mine :S
2715 2011-07-14 22:33:17 <jgarzik> TD: never underestimate the stupidity of a script kiddie :)
2716 2011-07-14 22:33:42 <[Tycho]> I had one client with 10k legal CPU clients, but he was lost because of Ufasoft problem.
2717 2011-07-14 22:33:47 <jgarzik> MrSam: I thumped m0mchil for requiring such poor workarounds.  it's awful.
2718 2011-07-14 22:33:51 <b4epoche> it was probably the kid asking about Windows pool software
2719 2011-07-14 22:33:54 <jgarzik> user-agent is _not_ a good method
2720 2011-07-14 22:34:02 <MrSam> okay IO-
2721 2011-07-14 22:34:05 <MrSam> it's coming your way
2722 2011-07-14 22:34:08 <jgarzik> requires _all_ pools to update for _every_ miner.
2723 2011-07-14 22:34:14 <jgarzik> not scalable
2724 2011-07-14 22:34:32 <MrSam> IO-: and ? :)
2725 2011-07-14 22:34:37 <MrDD> Tycho how can I setup pushpool to accept CPU miners more then 100GH/s
2726 2011-07-14 22:35:01 <[Tycho]> MrDD, sorry, I never tried pushpool.
2727 2011-07-14 22:35:02 <b4epoche> MrDD:  he don't use pushpool
2728 2011-07-14 22:35:26 <MrDD> What should i use then
2729 2011-07-14 22:35:27 <[Tycho]> "<MrSam> if ($http_user_agent ~ "Ufasof-special-for-deepbit-workaround" )" - he did this because I disabled Long Polling for Ufasoft miner.
2730 2011-07-14 22:35:34 <MrDD> i feel confused
2731 2011-07-14 22:35:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2732 2011-07-14 22:35:49 stuhood1 has joined
2733 2011-07-14 22:36:01 Joric has quit ()
2734 2011-07-14 22:36:04 <MrDD> does btcguild uses pushpool?
2735 2011-07-14 22:36:07 <sipa> yes
2736 2011-07-14 22:36:10 <sipa> i think so
2737 2011-07-14 22:36:12 <MrDD> their server doesnt crash
2738 2011-07-14 22:36:12 stuhood1 has left ()
2739 2011-07-14 22:36:12 <b4epoche> you might have better luck in the bitcoin-mining channel
2740 2011-07-14 22:36:20 <MrDD> with 1000 GH/s CPUs
2741 2011-07-14 22:36:30 <sipa> ask Eleuthria
2742 2011-07-14 22:36:35 <sipa> in #btcguild
2743 2011-07-14 22:36:38 <MrDD> i asked alredy
2744 2011-07-14 22:36:45 <jgarzik> <shrug>  the author of pushpoold was asking technical questions of MrDD, and he ignored them
2745 2011-07-14 22:36:48 <MrDD> he doesnt want to say
2746 2011-07-14 22:37:25 <Wuked> don't BTC guild use load balancing ?
2747 2011-07-14 22:37:38 <jgarzik> yes
2748 2011-07-14 22:37:42 dvide has quit ()
2749 2011-07-14 22:37:46 <dikidera> ;;bc,stats
2750 2011-07-14 22:37:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136301 | Current Difficulty: 1563027.9961162 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 786 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 0 hours, 18 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1655918.10969925
2751 2011-07-14 22:38:03 <Wuked> we are using pushpool to serve 165GH/sec no problems
2752 2011-07-14 22:38:03 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2753 2011-07-14 22:38:09 <sipa> wow
2754 2011-07-14 22:38:15 <MrDD> <Wuked>: how?
2755 2011-07-14 22:38:21 <Wuked> supposedly the limit is near 500GH/sec
2756 2011-07-14 22:38:22 <sipa> exactly how many people here have a >100GH/s pool themselves?
2757 2011-07-14 22:38:26 <MrDD> <Wuked>: what you modified
2758 2011-07-14 22:38:38 wirehead has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2759 2011-07-14 22:38:38 <Wuked> nothing AFAIK
2760 2011-07-14 22:38:47 <Wuked> we have some custom bitcoind patches
2761 2011-07-14 22:38:48 <MrDD> hm
2762 2011-07-14 22:38:50 <jgarzik> pushpool can handle > 100 Ghps just fine
2763 2011-07-14 22:38:51 <Wuked> made by other people
2764 2011-07-14 22:38:59 <Wuked> to cut down on stales
2765 2011-07-14 22:39:00 <jgarzik> bitcoind needs patches, yes
2766 2011-07-14 22:39:15 <Wuked> but pushpool 5.1 works great right now
2767 2011-07-14 22:39:21 <Wuked> but I'm not running on a VPS or anything
2768 2011-07-14 22:39:23 <Wuked> proper hardware
2769 2011-07-14 22:39:39 wardearia has joined
2770 2011-07-14 22:39:41 <MrDD> i run server with 12gb RAM
2771 2011-07-14 22:39:42 <b4epoche> Wuked:  what's your pool?
2772 2011-07-14 22:39:49 <MrDD> and pushpool is crashing
2773 2011-07-14 22:39:54 <MrDD> on 30 GH/s
2774 2011-07-14 22:40:00 TheZimm has joined
2775 2011-07-14 22:40:04 TheZimm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2776 2011-07-14 22:40:08 <Wuked> https://mineco.in
2777 2011-07-14 22:40:15 <Wuked> crashing how ?
2778 2011-07-14 22:40:20 <Wuked> fully crashing ?
2779 2011-07-14 22:40:28 <MrDD> yes
2780 2011-07-14 22:40:32 * jgarzik was asking MrDD that too, and he didn't answer
2781 2011-07-14 22:40:35 fathead has joined
2782 2011-07-14 22:40:36 <MrDD> it works some time then gets crasged
2783 2011-07-14 22:40:44 <jgarzik> "crashed" is very vague
2784 2011-07-14 22:40:44 * MrDD is confused.
2785 2011-07-14 22:40:54 <Zagitta> the process behind parsing the header dump that comes from miners is converting the hex string to binary and then reversing every 4 bytes of data (size of int) right?
2786 2011-07-14 22:41:07 * b4epoche thinks if MrDD thinks that it's a 12gb of RAM problem without knowing how much RAM pushpool is using...  well, maybe it's hopeless
2787 2011-07-14 22:41:08 <sipa> segfault? stop responding? lockup the system?
2788 2011-07-14 22:41:23 <Wuked> pushpool uses almsot no resources
2789 2011-07-14 22:41:33 <Wuked> even when doing 150GH/sec
2790 2011-07-14 22:41:53 <MrDD> hm
2791 2011-07-14 22:41:57 <Wuked> 6% CPU
2792 2011-07-14 22:42:03 <Wuked> 0.3% mem
2793 2011-07-14 22:42:05 <MrDD> this is my http://www.btcminers.biz/index.php
2794 2011-07-14 22:42:07 <b4epoche> lrn2top
2795 2011-07-14 22:42:14 <jgarzik> heh
2796 2011-07-14 22:42:20 <sipa> MrDD: can you elaborate on 'crash
2797 2011-07-14 22:42:27 <jgarzik> MrDD: where are the details of the crash?
2798 2011-07-14 22:42:27 <MrDD> how much ever you load its not getting more then 30 Gh/s
2799 2011-07-14 22:42:41 bliket_ has joined
2800 2011-07-14 22:42:46 <MrDD> i dont know exactly what does it crashes
2801 2011-07-14 22:42:48 <bliket_> ./bitcoind: /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.11' not found (required by ./bitcoind) ./bitcoind: /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.9' not found (required by ./bitcoind) ./bitcoind: /lib64/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.7' not found (required by ./bitcoind) ./bitcoind: /lib64/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by ./bitcoind)
2802 2011-07-14 22:42:54 <MrSam> MrDD: you did check your ulimit ?
2803 2011-07-14 22:42:58 <MrSam> and raise your port range
2804 2011-07-14 22:42:58 <bliket_> i am getting this when I try to run 'bitcoind'
2805 2011-07-14 22:42:59 <MrSam> ?
2806 2011-07-14 22:43:02 <sipa> MrDD: but what happends when you say 'crash' ?
2807 2011-07-14 22:43:11 <sipa> there must be some symptom you can observe
2808 2011-07-14 22:43:15 <MrSam> bliket_: upgrade to squeeze
2809 2011-07-14 22:43:29 <MrDD> just a sec
2810 2011-07-14 22:43:33 <MrDD> my friend will come now
2811 2011-07-14 22:43:33 <sipa> does the proces exit, does the system freeze, does you get pink elephants on your screen?
2812 2011-07-14 22:43:43 <Wuked> I'm currently trying to get bit clockers to fix their stats, or at least let us know how they are calculating their stats which seems totally out : http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10127.msg364184#msg364184
2813 2011-07-14 22:43:52 <jgarzik> what appears in logs etc.
2814 2011-07-14 22:44:12 <MrDD> jgarzik: pls wait so my friend come
2815 2011-07-14 22:44:19 <Wuked> lol
2816 2011-07-14 22:44:23 <bliket_> i can't upgrade to squeeze because it is a dedicated server
2817 2011-07-14 22:44:27 <b4epoche> MrDD:  how you getting 10GH/s solo?
2818 2011-07-14 22:44:32 <bliket_> mrsam: i can't upgrade to squeeze because it is a dedicated server
2819 2011-07-14 22:44:48 <MrSam> sucks
2820 2011-07-14 22:45:17 <Wuked> you can't upgrade because it's a dedicated server ?
2821 2011-07-14 22:45:22 <Wuked> that doesn't make sense
2822 2011-07-14 22:45:39 <b4epoche> dedicated to someone else maybe
2823 2011-07-14 22:46:20 Mpower has joined
2824 2011-07-14 22:46:28 <bliket_> i dont have physical access
2825 2011-07-14 22:46:38 <MrDD> jgarzik
2826 2011-07-14 22:46:39 <bliket_> how would I install an os with just ssh access?
2827 2011-07-14 22:46:45 <MrDD> Mpower is my friend
2828 2011-07-14 22:46:55 <Mpower> hi
2829 2011-07-14 22:47:13 <bliket_> you got a m3?
2830 2011-07-14 22:47:14 <MrDD> i said our pushpool is crahing on 30 GH/s
2831 2011-07-14 22:47:16 <sipa> Mr. MrDD friend,what happens when the server 'crashes' ?
2832 2011-07-14 22:47:23 <Mpower> not realluy crashing
2833 2011-07-14 22:47:26 <Mpower> but freez
2834 2011-07-14 22:47:33 <jgarzik> Mpower: be more specific
2835 2011-07-14 22:47:35 <sipa> the whole system?
2836 2011-07-14 22:47:35 <Mpower> it eat all memory
2837 2011-07-14 22:47:38 abadr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2838 2011-07-14 22:47:42 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
2839 2011-07-14 22:47:46 <Mpower> process keep there running
2840 2011-07-14 22:47:47 <Wuked> all 12GB ?
2841 2011-07-14 22:47:52 <Mpower> but no connections from miners to the pool
2842 2011-07-14 22:48:01 abadr has joined
2843 2011-07-14 22:48:05 CheapScotsman has joined
2844 2011-07-14 22:48:08 <bliket_> where can i find older versions of bitcoin?
2845 2011-07-14 22:48:08 <Mpower> usually happens at 30gh/s+
2846 2011-07-14 22:48:10 <jgarzik> Mpower: what OS?  how do you know it "eat all memory"?
2847 2011-07-14 22:48:13 <Mpower> ubuntu
2848 2011-07-14 22:48:17 <Mpower> free -m
2849 2011-07-14 22:48:23 <Mpower> iam newbie with linux =.
2850 2011-07-14 22:48:36 <b4epoche> top -u
2851 2011-07-14 22:48:40 <Wuked> what does it display in top ?
2852 2011-07-14 22:48:49 <sipa> so you don't know whether it's even pushpool that's eating the memory
2853 2011-07-14 22:48:56 <jgarzik> Mpower: at b4epoche indicated, use top.  linux always uses all memory for disk cache.
2854 2011-07-14 22:49:00 <jgarzik> *as
2855 2011-07-14 22:49:01 <Mpower> when i restart pushpool
2856 2011-07-14 22:49:07 <Mpower> and type free -m
2857 2011-07-14 22:49:17 <Mpower> goes good.. more unused
2858 2011-07-14 22:49:27 <Mpower> aha
2859 2011-07-14 22:49:27 <b4epoche> did you modify pushpool?
2860 2011-07-14 22:49:48 <Mpower> some friend installed us all,, and he is sleeping =X
2861 2011-07-14 22:50:00 <Mpower> i dont think he done any patches...
2862 2011-07-14 22:50:01 <MrDD> yep
2863 2011-07-14 22:50:28 <Mpower> Okay used top cmd
2864 2011-07-14 22:50:43 <Mpower> pushpool on 3.3 % mem
2865 2011-07-14 22:50:49 <Mpower> bitcoin almost same
2866 2011-07-14 22:50:49 <jgarzik> Mpower: to repeat.  ignore 'free'.  Linux uses all free memory for disk cache.  It is normal for 'free' to show all memory used.
2867 2011-07-14 22:50:57 <Mpower> bitcoin use 13% cpu
2868 2011-07-14 22:51:12 <Mpower> oki then thanks for that.
2869 2011-07-14 22:51:12 <b4epoche> nice:  http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/btcminers.biz
2870 2011-07-14 22:52:06 <b4epoche> classy operation
2871 2011-07-14 22:52:28 abadr has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2872 2011-07-14 22:52:44 <Mpower> well,, we r just starting,, dont know much about pushpools
2873 2011-07-14 22:52:58 <Mpower> when we reached 30ghs it just freez
2874 2011-07-14 22:53:02 <Mpower> and miner logs be like :
2875 2011-07-14 22:53:14 <Mpower> 14.07.2011 22:50:22 Accepted
2876 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> 14.07.2011 23:13:02 Accepted
2877 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> 14.07.2011 23:22:28 Accepted
2878 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> 14.07.2011 23:36:59 Accepted
2879 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> 0 MHash/s Error 80072EFD: A connection with the server could not be establi
2880 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> shed
2881 2011-07-14 22:53:15 <Mpower> 0 MHash/s Error 80072EFD: A connection with the server could not be establi
2882 2011-07-14 22:53:16 <Mpower> shed
2883 2011-07-14 22:53:16 <Mpower> 0 MHash/s Error 80072EFD: A connection with the server could not be establi
2884 2011-07-14 22:53:17 <Mpower> shed
2885 2011-07-14 22:53:26 <Wuked> try running pushpool with the debug flags?
2886 2011-07-14 22:53:27 <Mpower> and when check process still there..
2887 2011-07-14 22:53:34 <Wuked> pushpool - E -F -D 2
2888 2011-07-14 22:53:47 <Mpower> currently its just running pushpool -E
2889 2011-07-14 22:53:50 <Mpower> oki , will do that
2890 2011-07-14 22:53:51 moa7 has joined
2891 2011-07-14 22:53:53 <Mpower> then?
2892 2011-07-14 22:54:10 <Wuked> well that will log to your window
2893 2011-07-14 22:54:18 <Wuked> see what it says when it freezes
2894 2011-07-14 22:54:38 <Mpower> Okay
2895 2011-07-14 22:54:40 <b4epoche> I doubt it's even freezing
2896 2011-07-14 22:54:56 <Wuked> well you'll see any errors
2897 2011-07-14 22:54:58 <Wuked> at least
2898 2011-07-14 22:55:01 <bliket_> my bitcoind won't accept external connections I got this is my bitcoin.conf file: maxconnections=100 server=1 rpcuser=djnf4we rpcpassword=dfa2snf rpctimeout=30 rpcallowip=72.192.173.* rpcport=8332 rpcconnect=127.0.0.1 gen=0 keypool=100 paytxfee=0.00
2899 2011-07-14 22:55:08 <MrSam> :P
2900 2011-07-14 22:55:17 <MrSam> djnf4we dfa2snf you say
2901 2011-07-14 22:55:28 <dikidera> fail
2902 2011-07-14 22:55:32 <dikidera> big fail....
2903 2011-07-14 22:55:40 <bliket_> i just typed random characters
2904 2011-07-14 22:55:40 Ramen has left ()
2905 2011-07-14 22:55:45 <bliket_> its ok the wallet is empty
2906 2011-07-14 22:56:07 <bliket_> i am planning on changing the username and password once i get the server working, so please help me with that?
2907 2011-07-14 22:56:30 <MrSam> nah
2908 2011-07-14 22:56:31 <MrSam> :)
2909 2011-07-14 22:56:33 <bliket_> i can do local connections with links on the same server i get a json file at localhost:8332
2910 2011-07-14 22:56:42 <bliket_> but externally i get nothing
2911 2011-07-14 22:56:52 <bliket_> please help... :(
2912 2011-07-14 22:57:11 SISUbtcX has joined
2913 2011-07-14 22:57:45 <bliket_> iptables is empty so it's not that
2914 2011-07-14 22:58:06 <bliket_> please help i've been trying to figure this out since 2 days ago
2915 2011-07-14 22:58:16 <bliket_> 1btc reward :)
2916 2011-07-14 22:59:12 <[Tycho]> Wuked, what's your pool ?
2917 2011-07-14 22:59:14 <denisx> so, updated my states in my firewall
2918 2011-07-14 22:59:19 <denisx> who wanted to test something?
2919 2011-07-14 22:59:35 brunner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2920 2011-07-14 22:59:39 joepie91 has joined
2921 2011-07-14 22:59:48 <denisx> and it is not iptables
2922 2011-07-14 23:00:01 MrDD has quit ()
2923 2011-07-14 23:00:03 <Wuked> [Tycho]:  MineCo
2924 2011-07-14 23:00:08 <b4epoche> bliket_:  I don't 'pool' but "rpcallowip=72.192.173.*" seems suspicious
2925 2011-07-14 23:00:21 <bliket_> this is my external ip
2926 2011-07-14 23:01:00 <b4epoche> what's with the pooln00bs this evening?
2927 2011-07-14 23:01:07 <b4epoche> bliket_:  can you telnet in?
2928 2011-07-14 23:01:16 <bliket_> i am ssh'ed to the server right now
2929 2011-07-14 23:01:23 <bliket_> wget http://localhost:8332 --2011-07-14 15:57:43--  http://localhost:8332/ Resolving localhost... 127.0.0.1 Connecting to localhost|127.0.0.1|:8332... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 401 Authorization Required Authorization failed.
2930 2011-07-14 23:01:25 <b4epoche> no, to the listening port
2931 2011-07-14 23:01:30 <bliket_> so it works on localhost
2932 2011-07-14 23:01:36 <bliket_> let me try 1 sec
2933 2011-07-14 23:01:41 <Wuked> get used to the pool n00bs now someone has released a PHP front end
2934 2011-07-14 23:01:50 <MrSam> :P
2935 2011-07-14 23:01:50 <b4epoche> ah...
2936 2011-07-14 23:01:51 <Wuked> that people can roll out in a few hours
2937 2011-07-14 23:02:04 <Wuked> on thier $15 VPS
2938 2011-07-14 23:02:05 <Wuked> :)
2939 2011-07-14 23:02:09 * b4epoche might have to become a pooln00b
2940 2011-07-14 23:02:27 <bliket_> i just get a timed out error
2941 2011-07-14 23:02:59 <b4epoche> bliket_:  and you're running this on a hosted server?
2942 2011-07-14 23:03:01 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2943 2011-07-14 23:03:04 <bliket_> yeah
2944 2011-07-14 23:03:14 <b4epoche> then they're block the port
2945 2011-07-14 23:03:21 <b4epoche> blocking
2946 2011-07-14 23:03:24 <bliket_> no block on that port
2947 2011-07-14 23:03:29 <bliket_> iptables is empty
2948 2011-07-14 23:03:33 gwillen has joined
2949 2011-07-14 23:03:34 gwillen has quit (Changing host)
2950 2011-07-14 23:03:34 gwillen has joined
2951 2011-07-14 23:03:41 <b4epoche> probably upstream
2952 2011-07-14 23:03:43 <bliket_> plus I got many services that are on different ports that are working fine
2953 2011-07-14 23:03:59 <b4epoche> bliket_:  standard services?
2954 2011-07-14 23:04:09 wirehead has joined
2955 2011-07-14 23:04:33 <bliket_> yes, including http servers started on >1024 ports
2956 2011-07-14 23:04:42 <denisx> [Tycho]: that ufasoft does not work with deepbit anymore was intentional?
2957 2011-07-14 23:04:43 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2958 2011-07-14 23:04:51 <WakiMiko> just to be sure, you could test with netcat
2959 2011-07-14 23:04:56 hahuang65 has quit ()
2960 2011-07-14 23:04:58 <[Tycho]> denisx, no.
2961 2011-07-14 23:05:36 <WakiMiko> nc -l 8332
2962 2011-07-14 23:05:47 <WakiMiko> then nc yourserverip 8332 on your home machine
2963 2011-07-14 23:06:20 senseles has joined
2964 2011-07-14 23:06:34 <[Tycho]> denisx, I know why it's not working, but it's up to Ufasoft's author to fix it.
2965 2011-07-14 23:06:55 <bliket_> I just did a nc -l 8332 on my server and then i tried to connect to it with firefox and I got the http request on my server just now... So I know there is nothing wrong with the port
2966 2011-07-14 23:07:37 <b4epoche> but telnet timed out?
2967 2011-07-14 23:07:59 <bliket_> telnet timed out when I was just running bitcoind
2968 2011-07-14 23:08:04 <bliket_> i wasnt running netcat
2969 2011-07-14 23:08:11 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2970 2011-07-14 23:08:12 <WakiMiko> hm ok, try a netstat -pnl | grep bitcoin
2971 2011-07-14 23:08:19 <Wuked> have you tested it all locally ?
2972 2011-07-14 23:08:21 <WakiMiko> to see if bitcoin is really listening on all ips
2973 2011-07-14 23:08:35 <bliket_> let me start bitcoind first 1 sec
2974 2011-07-14 23:08:52 <bliket_> tcp        0      0 0.0.0.0:8333                0.0.0.0:*                   LISTEN      15043/bitcoind
2975 2011-07-14 23:08:59 <WakiMiko> ok looks fine
2976 2011-07-14 23:09:35 <bliket_> localhost i can get the json query fine with wget, but externally it acts as if the port isnt even open
2977 2011-07-14 23:10:45 <b4epoche> bliket_: you might try something with ngrep too
2978 2011-07-14 23:11:12 dobalina has quit ()
2979 2011-07-14 23:12:17 <bliket_> I am running bitcoind 0.3.12, because that's the only version that doesnt require glibc 2.7 because I am running centos 5.5
2980 2011-07-14 23:12:29 <denisx> cool, my minipool found a block after 80461 shares
2981 2011-07-14 23:12:33 <Wuked> that's old.
2982 2011-07-14 23:12:43 <bliket_> so is/was there something wrong with 0.3.12 not allowing external connections properly?
2983 2011-07-14 23:12:51 <Wuked> I gave up with CentOS
2984 2011-07-14 23:12:57 <IO-> even with MrSam's cpu miner flood all on 1 poold server I didn't eat up more then 250megs of ram
2985 2011-07-14 23:13:04 <IO-> its not that ram intensive
2986 2011-07-14 23:13:07 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2987 2011-07-14 23:13:35 <IO-> bliket_: cent6 is out as of the 12th
2988 2011-07-14 23:13:49 <bliket_> yeah i know, but it's a dedicated server, i can't update with ssh
2989 2011-07-14 23:14:01 <bliket_> i know centos6 would solve all my problems
2990 2011-07-14 23:14:10 <bliket_> but its just not doable right now :-/
2991 2011-07-14 23:15:12 <Zagitta> Anyone that can help me with the endianess of the block header hex?
2992 2011-07-14 23:16:46 <denisx> on my pool pushpoold has a memoryleak
2993 2011-07-14 23:16:58 <denisx> but valgrind could not find anyrhing, maybe it is a lib
2994 2011-07-14 23:17:13 <WakiMiko> bliket_: 0.3.12 seems pretty old, any idea when it came out? according to the git log the -rpcallowip argument was added on 2010-09-16
2995 2011-07-14 23:17:29 <bliket_> hm
2996 2011-07-14 23:19:53 <WakiMiko> i think the earliest version that has it is 0.3.14
2997 2011-07-14 23:19:57 <WakiMiko> according to git
2998 2011-07-14 23:20:09 <bliket_> oh ok that must be the problem then :)
2999 2011-07-14 23:20:30 <senseles> i made a precompiled bin for centos 5.6
3000 2011-07-14 23:20:34 <senseles> it's on the forum
3001 2011-07-14 23:20:38 <bliket_> please link
3002 2011-07-14 23:20:48 <senseles> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27352.0
3003 2011-07-14 23:21:27 <senseles> also
3004 2011-07-14 23:21:29 <denisx> lolz, the found block scrolled along in my screen -r
3005 2011-07-14 23:21:29 <denisx> rr.btcmp.com:7332 15/07/2011 01:07:14, 000008b3, accepted
3006 2011-07-14 23:21:30 <WakiMiko> also devs, any idea why the early git history is so weird, with every commit being there twice?
3007 2011-07-14 23:21:40 <senseles> you can yum upgrade
3008 2011-07-14 23:21:47 <senseles> to upgrade to whatever the latest version is
3009 2011-07-14 23:21:48 <senseles> :/
3010 2011-07-14 23:22:00 <denisx> my diff-2 miner found it
3011 2011-07-14 23:22:04 <nanotube> WakiMiko: possibly some artifact of the import from svn to git?
3012 2011-07-14 23:22:31 <WakiMiko> yeah that could be it i guess
3013 2011-07-14 23:22:39 <WakiMiko> kinda weird to see two "initial commits"
3014 2011-07-14 23:22:47 <nanotube> haha
3015 2011-07-14 23:23:20 <bliket_> oh wow senseles
3016 2011-07-14 23:23:48 <senseles> did it work for you?
3017 2011-07-14 23:24:04 <bliket_> it did
3018 2011-07-14 23:24:53 <nanotube> now, see how long it takes for that trojan in the random precompiled binary you grabbed off the forum to steal all your coins, bliket_ :P
3019 2011-07-14 23:25:10 <bliket_> i hope to god that isnt true
3020 2011-07-14 23:25:54 <nanotube> i hope too.... but unfortunately hopes offer no guarantees.
3021 2011-07-14 23:25:58 <bliket_> is senseles pretty trustable?
3022 2011-07-14 23:26:05 <WakiMiko> im running matts random precompiled nightly on my windows desktop, and so far my balance hasnt changed
3023 2011-07-14 23:26:15 <b4epoche> that /nick doesn't give him much cred
3024 2011-07-14 23:26:19 <WakiMiko> then again he would have to SEND me coins if he wanted to change it :C
3025 2011-07-14 23:27:15 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3026 2011-07-14 23:27:43 zamgo has joined
3027 2011-07-14 23:28:35 <b4epoche> so where is this php-pool-in-a-box code?
3028 2011-07-14 23:28:45 devrandom has joined
3029 2011-07-14 23:29:20 brunner has joined
3030 2011-07-14 23:30:03 <bliket_> oh shittt
3031 2011-07-14 23:30:08 <bliket_> thank you senseless
3032 2011-07-14 23:30:19 <bliket_> finally i can mine
3033 2011-07-14 23:30:21 <bliket_> solo
3034 2011-07-14 23:30:53 abadr has joined
3035 2011-07-14 23:32:18 <bliket_> so i heard there was some guy that lost a lot of his bitcoins because he didnt generate a new address or somethign?
3036 2011-07-14 23:32:42 <BlueMatt> that was a long, long, long time ago
3037 2011-07-14 23:32:48 <BlueMatt> there have been changes made to prevent that
3038 2011-07-14 23:32:48 <bliket_> oh ok
3039 2011-07-14 23:32:54 <BlueMatt> namely the keypool was added
3040 2011-07-14 23:33:09 <bliket_> right, i was reading about the keypool
3041 2011-07-14 23:33:13 <bliket_> has something to do with it
3042 2011-07-14 23:33:17 dikidera is now known as JordanCastroKnow
3043 2011-07-14 23:33:32 JordanCastroKnow is now known as diki
3044 2011-07-14 23:33:37 <bliket_> when I do ./bitcoind getinfo I get ""hashespersec" : 0," but already 10 shares were accepted
3045 2011-07-14 23:34:16 <WakiMiko> i dont think it displays the speed of external miners
3046 2011-07-14 23:34:26 <WakiMiko> not sure htough
3047 2011-07-14 23:34:37 <zamgo> only displays speed of internal miner
3048 2011-07-14 23:34:48 <zamgo> a "getworkspersec"   would be interesting, though
3049 2011-07-14 23:35:14 <bliket_> well how do I know if it's mining or not...?
3050 2011-07-14 23:35:30 <BlueMatt> you dont
3051 2011-07-14 23:35:35 <bliket_> lol
3052 2011-07-14 23:36:00 <BlueMatt> patches accepted
3053 2011-07-14 23:36:03 Kiba` has joined
3054 2011-07-14 23:36:32 copumpkin has joined
3055 2011-07-14 23:36:35 <Zagitta> anyone can tell me what this line does? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpc.cpp#L1666
3056 2011-07-14 23:36:41 <WakiMiko> 666
3057 2011-07-14 23:37:03 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: I would guess, judging by the line that it reverses the byte
3058 2011-07-14 23:37:07 <BlueMatt> aka ByteReverse
3059 2011-07-14 23:37:37 <b4epoche> brilliant deduction Holmes
3060 2011-07-14 23:37:53 <BlueMatt> thank you, thank you
3061 2011-07-14 23:38:05 * IO- slow golf clap
3062 2011-07-14 23:38:33 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: obviously but that doesn't help much
3063 2011-07-14 23:38:43 <BlueMatt> how does that not help much?
3064 2011-07-14 23:38:47 <nanotube> bliket_: seriously though... be careful with random binaries. there are trojans out there that steal your bitcoins.
3065 2011-07-14 23:38:52 <BlueMatt> it literally reverses the bits in the byte
3066 2011-07-14 23:39:08 <bliket_> yeah it's actually the first binary i ever downloaded and executed blindly
3067 2011-07-14 23:39:29 <WakiMiko> i doubt that
3068 2011-07-14 23:39:42 <bliket_> ./bitcoind listaccounts {     "" : 0.00000000,     "Your Address" : 0.00000000  <-- how do I get the addresses for these accounts?
3069 2011-07-14 23:40:03 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: see now that was more usefull... I thought it reversed the bytes in the int
3070 2011-07-14 23:40:06 <Wuked> ./bitcoind help
3071 2011-07-14 23:40:22 Strom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3072 2011-07-14 23:40:47 Strom has joined
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3074 2011-07-14 23:41:04 <Wuked> bliket_: getaccountaddress ""
3075 2011-07-14 23:41:50 <WakiMiko> that only gets the current address
3076 2011-07-14 23:42:00 <WakiMiko> getaddressesbyaccount <accountname>
3077 2011-07-14 23:42:02 <WakiMiko> for all of them
3078 2011-07-14 23:42:13 <b4epoche> haha:  	// this byte reverse is a waste of time, but this function is only called by MDC
3079 2011-07-14 23:42:13 <b4epoche> 	ByteReverse(W, data, BLOCKSIZE);
3080 2011-07-14 23:42:49 SISUbtcX has left ()
3081 2011-07-14 23:43:26 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: read the code, it runs 128/4 times (assumes each int is 4 bytes as the size to reverse is 128 bytes), no go take a look at cryptopp/misc.h where you can see the template for ByteReverse which runs another loop, reversing each byte in anything given to it
3082 2011-07-14 23:43:31 Fairuser is now known as Fairuser|AFK
3083 2011-07-14 23:43:48 <bliket_> so what happens when I get a block? which account will the block go to? and how do I get the block's status?
3084 2011-07-14 23:43:51 <senseles> blinket, yw
3085 2011-07-14 23:43:58 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: also, considering the comment above says "Byte reverse" and various wiki pages will tell you before you hash you have to reverse bytes, it shouldnt be hard to figure this out
3086 2011-07-14 23:44:00 <bliket_> thanks senseles
3087 2011-07-14 23:44:01 <senseles> but
3088 2011-07-14 23:44:05 <senseles> its not worthwhile to mine solo
3089 2011-07-14 23:44:13 <senseles> mine in a proportional pool
3090 2011-07-14 23:44:29 <senseles> you'll get a % of the coins based upon the % you submit
3091 2011-07-14 23:44:40 <Kiba`> hmm
3092 2011-07-14 23:44:43 <Kiba`> hey guys
3093 2011-07-14 23:44:48 <Kiba`> have any of you heard of my magazine?
3094 2011-07-14 23:45:00 <senseles> those things still exist? :x
3095 2011-07-14 23:45:13 <Kiba`> these things what?
3096 2011-07-14 23:45:14 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: thanks but there's seriously a lot of stuff to keep track off, at least for a dummy like me :)
3097 2011-07-14 23:45:17 <senseles> magazines
3098 2011-07-14 23:45:19 <senseles> newspapers
3099 2011-07-14 23:45:20 <senseles> books
3100 2011-07-14 23:45:22 <senseles> paper
3101 2011-07-14 23:45:27 <Kiba`> senseles: ah, but mine is online
3102 2011-07-14 23:45:28 <bliket_> so what happens when I get a block? which account will the block go to? and how do I get the block's status?
3103 2011-07-14 23:45:42 <senseles> ah, thats ok then i suppose
3104 2011-07-14 23:46:05 <b4epoche> Kiba`:  if its porn, I might have heard of it
3105 2011-07-14 23:46:20 <WakiMiko> i like books
3106 2011-07-14 23:46:23 <WakiMiko> new books smell good
3107 2011-07-14 23:46:50 <b4epoche> nothing like the smell of old porn mags
3108 2011-07-14 23:47:18 <senseles> well, im sure that tree enjoyed dying just so it could smell good for you :D
3109 2011-07-14 23:47:40 <senseles> it's 2011 i cant believe we aren't using all synthetic materials yet
3110 2011-07-14 23:48:09 <b4epoche> synthetic = not green = bad
3111 2011-07-14 23:48:13 <bliket_> whats that 0% proportional pool?
3112 2011-07-14 23:48:16 fathead has quit (Quit: leaving)
3113 2011-07-14 23:48:25 <senseles> bitcoins.lc is what im using
3114 2011-07-14 23:49:52 <bliket_> "When a block is solved (usually in a couple of hours, depending on number of currently active pool users) the coins are distributed fairly among the users contributed to the block. We're not taking any fee or extra costs for the solved block. The whole 50 BTC is distrubuted fairly among users that helped solving that block, based on the amount of shares the user contributed with."
3115 2011-07-14 23:49:58 <bliket_> how do they pay for their server?
3116 2011-07-14 23:50:10 <denisx> my pool does the same
3117 2011-07-14 23:50:17 <senseles> it doesnt take much to run a pool
3118 2011-07-14 23:50:23 <denisx> but you can donate if you want
3119 2011-07-14 23:50:35 <denisx> and some perks costs 1% donation
3120 2011-07-14 23:51:50 <bliket_> what kind of perk?
3121 2011-07-14 23:51:57 <WakiMiko> they keep every other block for themselves without telling anyone
3122 2011-07-14 23:52:03 <bliket_> lol
3123 2011-07-14 23:52:05 <denisx> autopayout and email notification for idle miners
3124 2011-07-14 23:52:36 lesh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3125 2011-07-14 23:52:54 <bliket_> WakiMiko: that could be possible, but wouldn't one find out by comparing how many mh/sec their computer does and averaging how much they are supposed to get paid?
3126 2011-07-14 23:53:18 zamgo has left ()
3127 2011-07-14 23:53:23 <bliket_> if they kept every other block it would be painfully obvious, no?
3128 2011-07-14 23:53:38 <denisx> bliket_: the last block I found myself I can see that it was a valid block
3129 2011-07-14 23:53:42 <b4epoche> just bad luck
3130 2011-07-14 23:53:45 <denisx> so, it is easy to check
3131 2011-07-14 23:56:09 <WakiMiko> bliket_: not really, unless every miner connected to the pool also checks if every hash he submits also meets the REAL target
3132 2011-07-14 23:56:46 <wasabi2> You'd be able to tell by examining the chain yourself, and your own payout expectations.
3133 2011-07-14 23:56:53 <denisx> WakiMiko: I wonder why the miners don't do that already
3134 2011-07-14 23:57:08 <wasabi2> Because the miners have no way of knowing hte real difficulty.
3135 2011-07-14 23:57:21 <WakiMiko> wasabi2: nope, you dont know which block was solved by which pool or solo miner
3136 2011-07-14 23:57:25 <denisx> wasabi2: it is simple to download that from somewhere
3137 2011-07-14 23:57:39 <denisx> only once every two weeks
3138 2011-07-14 23:57:44 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3139 2011-07-14 23:58:06 <wasabi2> It's simple, except that it's code to write.
3140 2011-07-14 23:58:40 <bliket_> ok this might be a stupid question but if I am solo mining, how do I know if I found a block
3141 2011-07-14 23:58:41 <bliket_> ?
3142 2011-07-14 23:59:01 <denisx> bliket_: bitcoind listtransactions '' 5
3143 2011-07-14 23:59:14 <WakiMiko> bliket_: your miner should report it
3144 2011-07-14 23:59:26 <denisx> and then you see a transaction with 50 BTC which is immature
3145 2011-07-14 23:59:29 clr_ has joined
3146 2011-07-14 23:59:38 <bliket_> oh ok thanks
3147 2011-07-14 23:59:41 <denisx> that also