1 2011-07-16 00:00:19 <phantomcircuit> unlikely
2 2011-07-16 00:00:24 <phantomcircuit> it's an android ^_^
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4 2011-07-16 00:00:54 <jgarzik> MIT Tech Review was competent and thorough
5 2011-07-16 00:01:14 <phantomcircuit> yes they did a good job
6 2011-07-16 00:01:16 <phantomcircuit> i was pleased
7 2011-07-16 00:01:34 <phantomcircuit> that reminds me i need to finish up my campbx pentest
8 2011-07-16 00:01:42 <phantomcircuit> they have at least one lol obvious problem
9 2011-07-16 00:01:49 <phantomcircuit> although i dont believe it's exploitable
10 2011-07-16 00:01:57 <gmaxwell> I don't think anyone really believes how bad the popular press is until they cover something you were deeply involved inâ and you see that its a total misrepresentation, and wonder about all the stuff you read but wouldn't know any better about.
11 2011-07-16 00:03:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: whats left for wallet import/export before merge?
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15 2011-07-16 00:03:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: cbitcoinaddress first :)
16 2011-07-16 00:03:36 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: there is a reason why the only remotely mainstream media I watch is cnbc
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18 2011-07-16 00:03:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: +1
19 2011-07-16 00:03:47 <BlueMatt> or maybe you could count aljazeera
20 2011-07-16 00:03:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: and i still want delprivkey
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22 2011-07-16 00:04:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I knew press coverage was "pretty bad", but until I started doing bitcoin interviews, I did not realize how truly awful it was
23 2011-07-16 00:04:18 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: watch 1 episode of the daily show
24 2011-07-16 00:04:31 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you really do have to make a distinction between aljazeera english and aljazeera btw
25 2011-07-16 00:04:39 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: true...
26 2011-07-16 00:04:40 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: true
27 2011-07-16 00:04:41 <phantomcircuit> their arabic reporting is lol retarded
28 2011-07-16 00:04:48 <BlueMatt> considering I dont know arabic...
29 2011-07-16 00:04:58 <phantomcircuit> yeah my cousin read some of it to me
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31 2011-07-16 00:05:13 <phantomcircuit> think fox news and presstv.ir mixed together... but worse
32 2011-07-16 00:05:14 <BlueMatt> cant say Im particularly surprised
33 2011-07-16 00:05:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: what do you think about CBitcoinAddress (#403)?
34 2011-07-16 00:05:31 <BlueMatt> wait something can be worse than fox and call themselves news?
35 2011-07-16 00:05:34 <BlueMatt> god
36 2011-07-16 00:05:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: MSNBC
37 2011-07-16 00:05:51 <BlueMatt> lol
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39 2011-07-16 00:06:02 <BlueMatt> touche
40 2011-07-16 00:06:33 <phantomcircuit> rofl
41 2011-07-16 00:06:58 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: haven't looked at it yet.
42 2011-07-16 00:07:18 theorb has joined
43 2011-07-16 00:07:29 <BlueMatt> I think jon steward (of all people, a comedian, really?) put it best on his recent interview on fox: something to the effect of the mainstream media was designed for a 24 hour news cycle, when there isnt enough news they just twiddle their thumbs
44 2011-07-16 00:07:33 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
45 2011-07-16 00:07:43 <BlueMatt> and when there is, they move so quick to report it they fuck it up
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47 2011-07-16 00:07:52 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, pretty much
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49 2011-07-16 00:08:17 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ... but I like the idea of well-defined classes with clear interfaces
50 2011-07-16 00:08:20 <phantomcircuit> fox & msnbc however have realized that you can fill the downtime with partisan bullshit
51 2011-07-16 00:08:39 <BlueMatt> and then they moved that partisan bullshit into the uptime
52 2011-07-16 00:08:47 <phantomcircuit> cnn is desperately trying to fill the downtime with stuff but nobody cares
53 2011-07-16 00:09:02 <BlueMatt> and at the end of the day, the stuff that is actually important doesnt get reported
54 2011-07-16 00:09:05 <sipa> gavinandresen, jgarzik: the only thing about that could be an issue for some is that it will break if someone has two private keys that hash to the same address
55 2011-07-16 00:09:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: and tries to spend a send-to-pubkey transaction output
56 2011-07-16 00:09:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: a. how badly break, like just not import the second key? and b. dont think we need to care about that
57 2011-07-16 00:09:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, uh isn't that like computationally ridiculous?
58 2011-07-16 00:09:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it is, which is why i don't care
59 2011-07-16 00:10:11 <gavinandresen> sipa : two private keys that hash to the same address is in the "ain't never gonna happen while we're alive" category.
60 2011-07-16 00:10:18 <sipa> agree
61 2011-07-16 00:10:26 <sipa> gavinandresen: within one wallet, btw
62 2011-07-16 00:10:35 <sipa> and only for generation tx's :)
63 2011-07-16 00:10:36 <BlueMatt> even better
64 2011-07-16 00:10:57 <sipa> but technically, it is a regression :)
65 2011-07-16 00:11:15 <BlueMatt> since when did regressions stop us from pushing code?
66 2011-07-16 00:11:16 <BlueMatt> ;)
67 2011-07-16 00:11:28 <sipa> haha
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75 2011-07-16 00:13:01 <gavinandresen> speaking of regressions, I'm making slow but steady progress on my test-at-the-protocol-level tool.
76 2011-07-16 00:13:09 <Zagitta_> forrestv: I ran 10000 blocks through my share checker and it reported block found on all of them :) thanks for all the help over the past few days
77 2011-07-16 00:13:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nice, hopefully I dont cause wasted effort with CHub (when I get around to doing more work on it)
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79 2011-07-16 00:14:22 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah a lot of things to worry about before hash collisions
80 2011-07-16 00:14:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what method does it use to test, like set up a fake connection and throw blocks?
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82 2011-07-16 00:15:26 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it is standalone python code that connects to bitcoind on port 8333 and then starts sending it blocks/transactions/etc
83 2011-07-16 00:15:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: oh, nice
84 2011-07-16 00:15:41 <sipa> i think those will be complementary
85 2011-07-16 00:15:45 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought you meant in boost unit test, very nice
86 2011-07-16 00:15:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... and makes sure that if it sends a block chain split the bitcoind returns the right stuff.
87 2011-07-16 00:15:51 <BlueMatt> yes that would be very nicely complementary
88 2011-07-16 00:15:54 <denisx> Zagitta_: what is your input format?
89 2011-07-16 00:16:17 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
90 2011-07-16 00:16:50 <Zagitta_> denisx: the same hex format as miners send to a pool
91 2011-07-16 00:17:03 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
92 2011-07-16 00:17:06 <denisx> Zagitta_: aka, the solution?
93 2011-07-16 00:17:38 <Zagitta_> denisx: yes solution/block header
94 2011-07-16 00:17:44 <denisx> nice
95 2011-07-16 00:18:02 asuk has quit (Quit: leaving)
96 2011-07-16 00:18:18 <denisx> Zagitta_: what language?
97 2011-07-16 00:18:32 <Zagitta_> denisx: C#
98 2011-07-16 00:18:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nice! I was thinking about doing the same, actually :)
99 2011-07-16 00:19:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I concluded that a test tool would be more useful than simple test scripts in the build tree
100 2011-07-16 00:19:12 <b4epoche> woot! back from ddos'ing!
101 2011-07-16 00:19:18 <jgarzik> b4epoche: heh
102 2011-07-16 00:19:22 <jgarzik> b4epoche: he got bored?
103 2011-07-16 00:19:36 <b4epoche> figured out how to renew my dhcp lease
104 2011-07-16 00:20:04 <b4epoche> which was a pain because I couldn't remember the router password,
105 2011-07-16 00:20:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I plan on generating an initial set of useful test data ('pre-recorded' block chains, good and bad transactions, etc), and am hoping to inspire others to add to them.
106 2011-07-16 00:21:01 <b4epoche> thanks again for your help with that jgarzik
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109 2011-07-16 00:23:20 <b4epoche> hmm... danieldaniel left? I guess I was just going to tell him there's no privkey import on the osx client yet.
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111 2011-07-16 00:26:39 <jjjx> Hey Gavin, do you work full-time on Bitcoin, and if so how do you pull it off? :-)
112 2011-07-16 00:26:50 Beccara has joined
113 2011-07-16 00:27:25 <gim> sipa: have you been notified of my last comment on closed pull/405?
114 2011-07-16 00:27:25 <Kiba> hey guys
115 2011-07-16 00:27:42 <Kiba> anybody knows him? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=21282
116 2011-07-16 00:27:44 <gim> (but maybe multithreading in bitcoin is just a joke for now?)
117 2011-07-16 00:28:06 <Kiba> he's promoting my thread and attempt to troll me and epically fail
118 2011-07-16 00:28:23 <Kiba> he seem to be consistently posting negative remarks about bitcoin
119 2011-07-16 00:28:39 <Kiba> not that I care
120 2011-07-16 00:28:53 <Kiba> until now
121 2011-07-16 00:29:11 <Kiba> despite the promotional benefit of driving traffic to my site, it's also shitting the quality of discussions
122 2011-07-16 00:29:25 <Zagitta_> denisx: the code is opensource if you want to look at it: https://github.com/Zagitta/Zetlon.Coinster
123 2011-07-16 00:29:52 BlueMatt has joined
124 2011-07-16 00:32:50 <BlueMatt> devrandom: around?
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127 2011-07-16 00:35:42 <BlueMatt> actually, Im off, Ill look on monday, but this stuff looks awsome...
128 2011-07-16 00:36:03 <sipa> gim: yeah, we need a cs on addressbook around it
129 2011-07-16 00:36:51 <BlueMatt> does sgimenez come on irc?
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131 2011-07-16 00:37:31 * gim is sgimenez
132 2011-07-16 00:37:36 <BlueMatt> ah, just wondered
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173 2011-07-16 01:12:50 <denisx> what is minconf in sendmany for?
174 2011-07-16 01:13:34 <sipa> minimum number of confirmations
175 2011-07-16 01:14:09 <sipa> making sure it uses only coins that are at least N Blblocks old
176 2011-07-16 01:14:33 <denisx> sipa: so I can spend money which is not yet mine?
177 2011-07-16 01:14:51 <denisx> like I can spend generated bitcoins at 10 confirmations?
178 2011-07-16 01:14:57 <phantomcircuit> sure doesn't mean anybody will accept it
179 2011-07-16 01:15:14 <phantomcircuit> you can spend it at 1 confirmation but nobody else will accept it
180 2011-07-16 01:16:04 <denisx> so, what the point then?
181 2011-07-16 01:16:36 <luke-jr> denisx: it's not for generations
182 2011-07-16 01:16:36 <phantomcircuit> so a pool can directly send out the mined coins from a block without delay
183 2011-07-16 01:16:42 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: they can't
184 2011-07-16 01:16:45 <sipa> nodenixs: you cannot ever spend generated coins that are not 100 blocks olf
185 2011-07-16 01:16:51 <sipa> eh
186 2011-07-16 01:16:54 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: even if a miner accepted it, the block would be invalid
187 2011-07-16 01:16:55 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, that doesn't make sense
188 2011-07-16 01:17:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you can't spend from the generated txn for 100 blocks.
189 2011-07-16 01:17:14 <phantomcircuit> i guess
190 2011-07-16 01:17:37 <phantomcircuit> there is probably a good reason that im to tired to realize
191 2011-07-16 01:17:43 <phantomcircuit> <-- goes back to coding shit
192 2011-07-16 01:17:47 <gmaxwell> You could spend from a prior one you kept, but then if it gets invalidated the paymet will get remined but you'll have lost the income...
193 2011-07-16 01:17:50 <sipa> phantomcircuit: accepting an immature tx in a block makes the block invalid
194 2011-07-16 01:17:51 <denisx> it seems this was a good question! ;)
195 2011-07-16 01:18:13 <sipa> denisx: it is for non generation txs
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198 2011-07-16 01:18:34 <sipa> as those can be spent at 0 or 1 conf
199 2011-07-16 01:18:35 <gmaxwell> There is a good reason for thatâ because a txn in an orphaned block can easily be put back into the chain, but if the generation was invalidated then all its children are toast forever.
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201 2011-07-16 01:19:52 <gmaxwell> Right you can spend everything else at zero (thought it won't be mined before the ancestor, but they can be mined at the same time)
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203 2011-07-16 01:20:59 <phantomcircuit> oh wow
204 2011-07-16 01:21:03 <phantomcircuit> OH WOW
205 2011-07-16 01:21:15 <phantomcircuit> i just realized something about campbx that makes me sad
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208 2011-07-16 01:23:22 <phantomcircuit> lol @ cPanel
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213 2011-07-16 01:34:55 <sipa> ?
214 2011-07-16 01:35:03 <RAM2012> ? I want to know
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217 2011-07-16 01:47:03 <senseles> does anyone know off hand if a pci-e 2.1 compliant card will work in an old 1.x slot?
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221 2011-07-16 01:53:55 <luke-jr> senseles: I think so.
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223 2011-07-16 01:55:13 <b4epoche> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_2.0
224 2011-07-16 01:56:07 <senseles> odd, this 5830 wont post :(
225 2011-07-16 01:56:24 <senseles> locutox in the other channel was having the same issue with a 5850
226 2011-07-16 01:56:34 <senseles> maybe it's just those cards aren't backwards compatible
227 2011-07-16 01:56:42 <senseles> so much for sticking a 5830 in this machine
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230 2011-07-16 01:58:39 <freewil> what does the proxy string in the getinfo rpc call mean?
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234 2011-07-16 02:01:55 <freewil> ...bueller? bueller?
235 2011-07-16 02:02:11 <gmaxwell> It's the configured socks proxy.
236 2011-07-16 02:03:15 <freewil> ok does bitcoin have a config setting for that or do you just configure it through the OS?
237 2011-07-16 02:03:26 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin has a setting for it.
238 2011-07-16 02:03:35 <freewil> ok great thanks
239 2011-07-16 02:03:42 <gmaxwell> -proxy=<ip:port> Connect through socks4 proxy
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241 2011-07-16 02:04:06 <freewil> ah genius
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279 2011-07-16 02:50:01 <freewil> what does 'keypoololdest' refer to in the getinfo rpc call
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284 2011-07-16 02:54:54 <b4epoche> prolly the oldest key in the pool
285 2011-07-16 02:55:45 <freewil> thats strange
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287 2011-07-16 02:56:12 <freewil> im not that familiar with the bitcoin network so i dont know what that refers to exactly
288 2011-07-16 02:57:03 <b4epoche> bitcoin makes a pool or ~100 keys to use after you request the first new one (I think)
289 2011-07-16 02:57:36 <freewil> so does this have to do with your public addresses in your wallet
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291 2011-07-16 02:57:41 <b4epoche> thus, you're wallet will have like 100 keys in it at any time. i.e. it doesn't generate a new one 'on demand'
292 2011-07-16 02:58:07 <b4epoche> your private keys are in wallet
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294 2011-07-16 02:58:40 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: no it will have a pool of 100 unused keys, and it generates new ones to keep it topped off.
295 2011-07-16 02:59:09 <freewil> i dont think this has anything to do with that
296 2011-07-16 02:59:10 <b4epoche> there's some reason for it doing that but I can't recall it
297 2011-07-16 02:59:11 <gmaxwell> The keypoololdest is the oldest unused key. A backup older than that is about to become lossy.
298 2011-07-16 02:59:28 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: so that backups actually work. :)
299 2011-07-16 02:59:52 <b4epoche> well, so the irregular backups work
300 2011-07-16 02:59:57 <b4epoche> s/the/that
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302 2011-07-16 03:00:17 <freewil> gmaxwell: the value im getting back for keypoololdest doesnt look like a public address hex value though
303 2011-07-16 03:00:18 <gmaxwell> Not just irregular. If not for the pool, you could backup every day, and still lose most of your coins if you lost your wallet.
304 2011-07-16 03:00:24 <freewil> its just an integer
305 2011-07-16 03:00:45 <b4epoche> prolly an index
306 2011-07-16 03:00:50 <gmaxwell> freewil: its unix time, number of seconds since 1970. date +s%
307 2011-07-16 03:01:12 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: I mean backup every time a key is generated...
308 2011-07-16 03:01:19 <gmaxwell> date +%s
309 2011-07-16 03:01:24 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
310 2011-07-16 03:01:26 <freewil> oh i get it
311 2011-07-16 03:01:41 <b4epoche> ah, time since the epoche
312 2011-07-16 03:01:41 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: so every time you send bitcoin, yes that would work... but thats not much of a backup scheme. :)
313 2011-07-16 03:02:01 <b4epoche> a one file raid
314 2011-07-16 03:02:12 <gmaxwell> Yes, and Raid is not a backup.
315 2011-07-16 03:02:24 <gmaxwell> rm -rf / ooops.. my data is now redundantly deleted. ;)
316 2011-07-16 03:02:35 <b4epoche> depends on the type of raid
317 2011-07-16 03:03:14 <gmaxwell> all types of raid will replicate your deletion, â because raid (that provides redundancy at all) is high availablity, not backup. :)
318 2011-07-16 03:04:15 <b4epoche> I thought there was one raid setup you could use as effectively a backup
319 2011-07-16 03:04:21 <dsockwell> lol no
320 2011-07-16 03:04:25 <dsockwell> maybe raidz
321 2011-07-16 03:04:27 <dsockwell> maybe
322 2011-07-16 03:04:39 <dsockwell> but that's zfs and no
323 2011-07-16 03:05:02 <gmaxwell> no.. there are filesystems with snapshots, which if used right are a kind of weak online backup. But raid isn't a backup.
324 2011-07-16 03:06:06 wolfspraul has joined
325 2011-07-16 03:06:12 <b4epoche> it's drive swapping I'm thinking of but that's really not a good bitcoin wallet solution
326 2011-07-16 03:06:35 <dsockwell> if you kept swapping out drives on a raid1 that's like a backup
327 2011-07-16 03:06:39 <gmaxwell> hah, okay, yea, you could raid 1 and swap out drives..
328 2011-07-16 03:06:47 <dsockwell> an expensive one
329 2011-07-16 03:07:03 <gmaxwell> sadly drives are about the cheapest backup medium per gigabyte now.
330 2011-07-16 03:07:04 <b4epoche> well, you could rotate through
331 2011-07-16 03:07:08 Zagitta_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
332 2011-07-16 03:07:33 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: just make sure your raid implementation is smart enough to not decide the old drive is the one you're keeping when you rotate it back in!
333 2011-07-16 03:08:25 <b4epoche> keeping? oldest drive (backup) gets overwritten
334 2011-07-16 03:08:58 <senseles> just stick a backup of your wallet on an SSD
335 2011-07-16 03:09:01 <senseles> and shove it in a safe
336 2011-07-16 03:09:06 <dsockwell> ...
337 2011-07-16 03:09:37 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: right, but you've got a mirror, you pull a drive. Insert a old one. System decides to rebuild the old one onto the new one. 0_o (because it's not like swapping in old drives is going to be a well tested case for a raid system)
338 2011-07-16 03:09:52 <senseles> r1soft would be a good backup solution
339 2011-07-16 03:09:55 <gmaxwell> In any case, backups are why there is a keypool.
340 2011-07-16 03:10:00 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: oh, I see what you're saying...
341 2011-07-16 03:10:01 <senseles> take hourly snapshots encrypted on a remote server
342 2011-07-16 03:10:07 Herodes has quit (Quit: Leaving)
343 2011-07-16 03:10:11 <b4epoche> yea, you need a master/slave setup
344 2011-07-16 03:10:28 <gmaxwell> senseles: http://duplicity.nongnu.org/
345 2011-07-16 03:10:35 <bliket_> a bag for me, a bag for you, let's get wrecked on bags of glue
346 2011-07-16 03:10:42 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: was that you're mining setup you posted a picture of earlier?
347 2011-07-16 03:10:54 <gmaxwell> I just have a simple cron job for my online wallet that uses the backupwallet rpc + xz + gpg.
348 2011-07-16 03:10:57 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yes.
349 2011-07-16 03:11:05 <bliket_> link??
350 2011-07-16 03:11:07 <b4epoche> very nice
351 2011-07-16 03:11:11 MC-Eeepc has joined
352 2011-07-16 03:11:16 <b4epoche> bliket_: he posted it for you
353 2011-07-16 03:11:25 <bliket_> where @?
354 2011-07-16 03:11:33 <gmaxwell> You commented in fact.
355 2011-07-16 03:11:36 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/v1.jpg
356 2011-07-16 03:11:38 <bliket_> yeah
357 2011-07-16 03:11:58 <bliket_> are those x16 risers?
358 2011-07-16 03:12:03 Akiron has joined
359 2011-07-16 03:12:04 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
360 2011-07-16 03:12:22 <gmaxwell> bliket_: yes, except for the 1x ones you can't see.
361 2011-07-16 03:12:32 <b4epoche> 12 cards?
362 2011-07-16 03:12:43 <gmaxwell> On those two systems.
363 2011-07-16 03:13:18 <Akiron> question for those familiar with bitcoin source--where is the block checking code located?
364 2011-07-16 03:13:30 <b4epoche> running open air, eh?
365 2011-07-16 03:13:34 <gmaxwell> Akiron: most of it in main.cpp / main.h
366 2011-07-16 03:13:38 <bliket_> what kind of puppies are those?
367 2011-07-16 03:13:39 PPilate is now known as Pilate
368 2011-07-16 03:13:44 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yes, in my basement.
369 2011-07-16 03:13:48 <bliket_> gmaxwell: what kind of puppies???
370 2011-07-16 03:14:16 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: I was thinking about doing the same but I'm not much of a hw guy... but I have have very cool basement
371 2011-07-16 03:14:22 <bliket_> btw i am laughing my ass off to myself because I am using the word "puppies" instead of "graphics cards"
372 2011-07-16 03:14:22 <gmaxwell> those machines have 5830s.
373 2011-07-16 03:14:36 <gmaxwell> The funny thing is that the more ghetto systems run a lot cooler.
374 2011-07-16 03:14:37 <bliket_> nice puppies
375 2011-07-16 03:14:46 <bliket_> those are like german shepards
376 2011-07-16 03:14:55 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/v0.jpg (will get rearranged to the v1 style this weekend)
377 2011-07-16 03:15:06 <b4epoche> yea, figured open air would be better
378 2011-07-16 03:15:10 <bliket_> the 5830 is like a german shepard, the 6990 is like a full grown pitbull
379 2011-07-16 03:15:13 zapnap_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
380 2011-07-16 03:15:23 <bliket_> those nvidia cards are like poodles
381 2011-07-16 03:15:27 <bliket_> lol
382 2011-07-16 03:15:32 * bliket_ is laughing his ass off
383 2011-07-16 03:15:42 zapnap has joined
384 2011-07-16 03:15:50 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: are those just two motherboards? with six pcie slots each?
385 2011-07-16 03:16:05 <gmaxwell> the v0 cards are all 53.50 to 62.50 degress right now...
386 2011-07-16 03:16:18 <b4epoche> C I assume, not F
387 2011-07-16 03:16:45 <bliket_> yes of course C
388 2011-07-16 03:16:45 <gmaxwell> yes, C. the v1 cards are 60-67 right now
389 2011-07-16 03:16:51 <b4epoche> well, of course, unless you're in southern hemisphere
390 2011-07-16 03:17:02 <bliket_> there is no way in hell those are F, unless you live on the north pole
391 2011-07-16 03:17:05 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yes,
392 2011-07-16 03:17:36 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: The boards have 5x 16 slots (wired 4x 8, one by 4x) and one 1x slot.
393 2011-07-16 03:17:54 <bliket_> 890-fxa gd-65?
394 2011-07-16 03:18:03 <bliket_> the refined taste of wine motherboard
395 2011-07-16 03:18:06 <b4epoche> a low-power cpu?
396 2011-07-16 03:18:27 <bliket_> amd seperaon 140, like a nice toblerone
397 2011-07-16 03:18:54 <bliket_> a green memory slot
398 2011-07-16 03:18:55 <bliket_> ?
399 2011-07-16 03:19:02 <bliket_> that can't be a 890fxa-gd65
400 2011-07-16 03:19:06 <bliket_> or a gd70
401 2011-07-16 03:19:18 <b4epoche> 890-fxa gd-65 only has 2 pcie
402 2011-07-16 03:19:23 <gmaxwell> It's a GD70.
403 2011-07-16 03:19:44 <gmaxwell> Kinda pricy, but it doesn't matter with six cards on it.
404 2011-07-16 03:19:46 <bliket_> do you wish you bought the gd65?
405 2011-07-16 03:19:53 <bliket_> like i do?
406 2011-07-16 03:20:35 <b4epoche> 890FXA-GD70
407 2011-07-16 03:20:40 <b4epoche> ah, yep
408 2011-07-16 03:21:12 <gmaxwell> bliket_: no not really, the cost difference is only $7 per slot or something like that.
409 2011-07-16 03:21:27 <bliket_> every penny saved is a penny earned
410 2011-07-16 03:21:35 <gmaxwell> Same reason I wired up >1x, in case I do something else on them that can benefit from more bus bandwidth.
411 2011-07-16 03:21:49 <bliket_> which will never be the case
412 2011-07-16 03:22:08 <b4epoche> 65 only has 2 pcie, no?
413 2011-07-16 03:22:10 CheapScotsman has joined
414 2011-07-16 03:22:11 <gmaxwell> Well, I've made a fair amount of money doing non-mining on my gpu systems.
415 2011-07-16 03:22:31 <gmaxwell> (and in fact, I only started mining because I had gpus from other business)
416 2011-07-16 03:22:34 <IO-> wait, you mean real work?
417 2011-07-16 03:22:41 <gmaxwell> Yes.
418 2011-07-16 03:22:43 <IO-> wow
419 2011-07-16 03:22:46 <IO-> get outa here
420 2011-07-16 03:22:47 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: yea, what do you do?
421 2011-07-16 03:23:02 <CheapScotsman> Anyone familiar with jumping PSUs?
422 2011-07-16 03:23:04 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
423 2011-07-16 03:23:06 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
424 2011-07-16 03:23:14 <bliket_> he edits porn movies for bangbros
425 2011-07-16 03:23:20 <bliket_> he doesn't like talking about it
426 2011-07-16 03:23:23 brooss has joined
427 2011-07-16 03:23:31 <IO-> SR had a 6month BB account for sale, lol
428 2011-07-16 03:23:38 <gmaxwell> hah. Custom numerical optimization stuff, training for machine classification, signal processing stuff. ::shrugs::
429 2011-07-16 03:23:52 <bliket_> porn.
430 2011-07-16 03:23:58 <b4epoche> so, you test on your machines?
431 2011-07-16 03:24:14 <bliket_> if jacking off means testing
432 2011-07-16 03:24:19 <CheapScotsman> That would become a depressing job
433 2011-07-16 03:24:21 <b4epoche> or you actually getting outsourced computations?
434 2011-07-16 03:24:29 <gmaxwell> Both.
435 2011-07-16 03:24:41 <gmaxwell> I also have 160 opteron cores in the basement too. :)
436 2011-07-16 03:24:45 brunner has joined
437 2011-07-16 03:24:56 <b4epoche> you're own biz?
438 2011-07-16 03:25:11 <gmaxwell> More like net-profitable hobbies.
439 2011-07-16 03:25:14 uzyn has quit (Quit: Baby go boom!)
440 2011-07-16 03:25:36 * b4epoche keeps meaning to learn opencl...
441 2011-07-16 03:25:45 fnord0 has joined
442 2011-07-16 03:26:01 * b4epoche and keeps signing up for the high-performance computing seminars but never has time to go
443 2011-07-16 03:26:21 <bliket_> we should start mining in the Dominican Republic
444 2011-07-16 03:26:27 <bliket_> anyone know why?
445 2011-07-16 03:26:33 <gmaxwell> Power is cheap there?
446 2011-07-16 03:26:40 <bliket_> yes US$0.006 per KWh
447 2011-07-16 03:26:48 <gmaxwell> what? ?!
448 2011-07-16 03:26:51 <bliket_> yep
449 2011-07-16 03:27:14 <gmaxwell> damn, in utah (not where I am) you can apparently get to 0.045, but I think thats about the lowest in the US.
450 2011-07-16 03:27:21 <gmaxwell> Are you sure thats the complete price there?
451 2011-07-16 03:27:26 <bliket_> yes sir
452 2011-07-16 03:28:00 <gmaxwell> but can we build flood proof miners?
453 2011-07-16 03:29:04 <bliket_> yes
454 2011-07-16 03:29:13 <bliket_> i guess you could call it that
455 2011-07-16 03:29:30 <bliket_> so best to buy the cheapest $/mhash machine and move to the dominican republic
456 2011-07-16 03:29:39 <bliket_> and start a datacenter there with all bitcoin miners
457 2011-07-16 03:29:45 <bliket_> run AC all day
458 2011-07-16 03:29:46 <senseles> was considering doing that
459 2011-07-16 03:29:46 <bliket_> :D
460 2011-07-16 03:29:51 <senseles> got 0.06 in my area of the US
461 2011-07-16 03:29:51 <bliket_> AC ALL DAY
462 2011-07-16 03:29:57 <senseles> then just run a small fiber line
463 2011-07-16 03:30:03 <senseles> since it doesn't need much bandwidth
464 2011-07-16 03:30:09 <gmaxwell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_the_Dominican_Republic#Broadband_Internet_access
465 2011-07-16 03:30:17 <bliket_> you could probably do it with 56k
466 2011-07-16 03:30:26 <bliket_> how many miners can one run on 56k modem?
467 2011-07-16 03:30:32 <bliket_> lets say 1ghash
468 2011-07-16 03:30:34 <gmaxwell> senseles: 0.05(5?) here in the winter, 0.075 in the summer (now).
469 2011-07-16 03:30:43 <senseles> sad dominican republic has better infrastructure than philippines
470 2011-07-16 03:30:53 <gmaxwell> the latency on 56k modems is kinda terrible.
471 2011-07-16 03:31:02 <gmaxwell> >200ms rtt just from the modem itself.
472 2011-07-16 03:31:28 <gmaxwell> it appears that broadband is cheap in the Dominican Republic though.
473 2011-07-16 03:31:30 <bliket_> ok you could probably get a residential wimax connection
474 2011-07-16 03:31:49 <b4epoche> PA has pretty cheap rates too...
475 2011-07-16 03:32:06 <b4epoche> hence my mining interest
476 2011-07-16 03:32:36 <bliket_> pensilvania?
477 2011-07-16 03:32:51 <bliket_> pennsylvania
478 2011-07-16 03:33:00 Kiba` is now known as kiba
479 2011-07-16 03:33:26 <b4epoche> yea
480 2011-07-16 03:33:30 <IO-> i think i could live there
481 2011-07-16 03:33:41 <b4epoche> keep on frackin'
482 2011-07-16 03:34:00 <senseles> best part about being offshore is you can give your machines to someone else ~
483 2011-07-16 03:34:07 <senseles> for instance my wife own my bitcoin machines in the US
484 2011-07-16 03:34:11 <senseles> and she's not an american
485 2011-07-16 03:34:14 <senseles> so uh, no taxes
486 2011-07-16 03:34:15 <senseles> lol.
487 2011-07-16 03:34:26 <gmaxwell> eh. Tax games are for idiots, IMO.
488 2011-07-16 03:34:53 <senseles> giving 25% of my money to some corporate controlled jackasses who are going to use it to further supress society is not my idea of money well spent
489 2011-07-16 03:35:20 <gmaxwell> Taxes are just a cost of doing business, you factor them in, and live with them. The cost of just getting investigated is enormous, and the tax man usually comes out ahead.
490 2011-07-16 03:35:21 <senseles> while they fuck prostitutes and show their cocks off on twitter
491 2011-07-16 03:35:21 <b4epoche> and you'd spend it on? pussy and beer?
492 2011-07-16 03:35:34 <IO-> i vote republican because i have too much money and want to give more to rich people
493 2011-07-16 03:35:54 <bliket_> i vote republican because I am a jackass
494 2011-07-16 03:36:11 <b4epoche> Bachmann/Palin ftw!
495 2011-07-16 03:36:15 <senseles> i'm trying to find a new home so i can give up my citizenship
496 2011-07-16 03:36:19 <phantomcircuit> id_dsa not authorized
497 2011-07-16 03:36:21 <phantomcircuit> <p>The key ���id_rsa.pub��� has been authorized.</p>
498 2011-07-16 03:36:26 <phantomcircuit> STILL NOT AUTHORIZED
499 2011-07-16 03:36:31 <phantomcircuit> i was wrong
500 2011-07-16 03:36:37 <phantomcircuit> cpanel is unhackable
501 2011-07-16 03:36:38 quellhorst has quit (Changing host)
502 2011-07-16 03:36:38 quellhorst has joined
503 2011-07-16 03:36:43 <senseles> the only thing good about being an american is the passport
504 2011-07-16 03:36:48 <senseles> you can get into anywhere without issue
505 2011-07-16 03:36:49 <phantomcircuit> it is so shitty it doesn't work even when it says you succeeded
506 2011-07-16 03:37:06 <IO-> i vote republican because we need more TSA, more wars. I wasn't using my rights anyways
507 2011-07-16 03:37:23 <senseles> as if democrats arent going to do the same thing
508 2011-07-16 03:37:23 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
509 2011-07-16 03:37:36 <phantomcircuit> IO-, i vote democrat because i didn't need that money anyways
510 2011-07-16 03:38:01 <b4epoche> phantomcircuit: cpanel?
511 2011-07-16 03:38:02 zapnap_ has joined
512 2011-07-16 03:38:04 <senseles> we got a black democrat as president and the DEA is still raiding dispenseries in california :/
513 2011-07-16 03:38:24 <IO-> dep or rep, they're taking your money
514 2011-07-16 03:38:29 <senseles> 10th amendment what's that
515 2011-07-16 03:38:34 <senseles> state right who?
516 2011-07-16 03:38:45 <gmaxwell> #politics <----
517 2011-07-16 03:38:51 CheapScotsman has quit (Quit: Leaving)
518 2011-07-16 03:38:53 <senseles> ya, sorry :/
519 2011-07-16 03:39:00 <phantomcircuit> lol
520 2011-07-16 03:39:25 <phantomcircuit> IO-, at least the republicans are paying lip service to reducing taxes, the democrats have hardons for WW2 era tax levels
521 2011-07-16 03:39:29 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, yes
522 2011-07-16 03:39:42 <quellhorst> senseles: half white
523 2011-07-16 03:39:42 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, it *is* vulnerable to a csrf attack
524 2011-07-16 03:39:57 <phantomcircuit> but it's such a piece of shit software that i cant get the attack to actually run
525 2011-07-16 03:39:57 <gmaxwell> Why should y'all care about taxes when you're just planning on cheating them? lol.
526 2011-07-16 03:40:01 <IO-> they only want to reduce taxes, more so, for millionairs. and they want college kids and old people to pay for it
527 2011-07-16 03:40:09 <senseles> i still have to pay taxes
528 2011-07-16 03:40:13 <b4epoche> http://www.cpanel.net/ ?
529 2011-07-16 03:40:17 <phantomcircuit> IO-, lolololol that's literally not true
530 2011-07-16 03:40:19 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, yes
531 2011-07-16 03:41:04 zapnap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
532 2011-07-16 03:41:11 <genis1> very interesting times ahead, if they dont raise the debt ceiling, we should see some unstable USD prices
533 2011-07-16 03:41:21 <phantomcircuit> IO-, you realize that if you calculate the effective federal tax rate people in the bottom 60% of incomes pay zero to -8% taxes right?
534 2011-07-16 03:41:31 <b4epoche> genis1: like btc prices?
535 2011-07-16 03:41:52 <genis1> well, btc might go up as USD goes down
536 2011-07-16 03:42:22 <genis1> normally money chases items that store value or are deflationary. like gold, and possibly btc
537 2011-07-16 03:42:39 <b4epoche> I mean the volatility
538 2011-07-16 03:43:10 <senseles> even with all my bitching US is still one of the lowest tax rates in the world
539 2011-07-16 03:43:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: even if you had a flat tax rate at 35% people in the bottom 60% wouldn't account for crap because income is so unequal in the US.
540 2011-07-16 03:43:26 <senseles> I'm paying about 25%
541 2011-07-16 03:43:32 <senseles> as a self-employed individual
542 2011-07-16 03:43:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yes but i mean they pay negative taxes
543 2011-07-16 03:43:38 zapnap_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
544 2011-07-16 03:43:44 <bliket_> #politics channel exists
545 2011-07-16 03:43:45 zeph97 has joined
546 2011-07-16 03:43:46 <genis1> gmaxwell: with inflation that all changes. many people will bump to higher tax brackets
547 2011-07-16 03:44:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so it is literally impossible to lower taxes for anybody except the top 40% since nobody else pays federal taxes
548 2011-07-16 03:44:16 <senseles> i wonder how many of the miners are in the US
549 2011-07-16 03:44:19 denisx has joined
550 2011-07-16 03:44:19 <phantomcircuit> see what im saying?
551 2011-07-16 03:44:25 <senseles> and i wonder what economic hardship would do to the mining rate
552 2011-07-16 03:44:31 <senseles> as people have to sell off hardware to make ends meet
553 2011-07-16 03:45:01 <gmaxwell> genis1: if you inflation correct the brackets that hasn't been that case, as they've been continually revised downwards effectively. Also, people with greater income have many more options to avoid taxes.
554 2011-07-16 03:45:28 zapnap has joined
555 2011-07-16 03:45:29 <senseles> ya, like starting a foundation
556 2011-07-16 03:45:32 <gmaxwell> senseles: if you're on the boundary of economic hardship you probably shouldn't have that much invested. "don't risk what you can't lose"
557 2011-07-16 03:45:35 <senseles> then donating all your income to your own foundation
558 2011-07-16 03:45:40 <senseles> then use that foundation to pay your bills
559 2011-07-16 03:45:42 <senseles> == 0 taxes
560 2011-07-16 03:45:49 satoshi_ has joined
561 2011-07-16 03:46:09 <phantomcircuit> senseles, if you get caught with your foundation paying your bills like that you go to jail
562 2011-07-16 03:46:13 <sacarlson> what is this value? txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey I assume it's just some big random number that was used to create the root of the block chain
563 2011-07-16 03:46:27 <gmaxwell> senseles: an income from long term investments being taxed at a much lower rate... (until you hit AMT at least)
564 2011-07-16 03:46:28 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, read it xD
565 2011-07-16 03:46:29 <senseles> ya but you have to "travel" for the foundation
566 2011-07-16 03:46:33 <phantomcircuit> satoshi_, not cool
567 2011-07-16 03:46:42 <senseles> which of course entails first class tickets and 5 star hotels
568 2011-07-16 03:46:48 <bliket_> ban satoshi that guy owes me a bitcoin
569 2011-07-16 03:46:59 <JFK911> he owes me two bitcoins
570 2011-07-16 03:46:59 <sacarlson> phantomcircuit: txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey = CScript() << ParseHex("04678afdb0fe5548271967f1a67130b7105cd6a828e03909a67962e0ea1f61deb649f6bc3f4cef38c4f35504e51ec112de5c384df7ba0b8d578a4c702b6bf11d5f") << OP_CHECKSIG;
571 2011-07-16 03:47:01 <genis1> senseles: I know an accountant in jail for 10 years that did that for lots of people with off short accounts/foundations trusts
572 2011-07-16 03:47:04 <satoshi_> phantomcircuit: 'phantom' + circuit?
573 2011-07-16 03:47:13 <satoshi_> cool?
574 2011-07-16 03:47:15 <phantomcircuit> sacarlson, convert to ascii
575 2011-07-16 03:47:15 <senseles> that sucks
576 2011-07-16 03:47:26 <IO-> hi satoshi!
577 2011-07-16 03:47:26 <phantomcircuit> will the real satoshi please stand up
578 2011-07-16 03:47:42 <gmaxwell> someone care to ban the satoshi impersonator?
579 2011-07-16 03:47:45 <satoshi_> or the real phantom.
580 2011-07-16 03:48:02 <phantomcircuit> <-- is the real phantom
581 2011-07-16 03:48:25 <denisx> Iam Brian and my wife is also Brian!
582 2011-07-16 03:48:29 genis1 is now known as weidai
583 2011-07-16 03:48:33 <phantomcircuit> wait wait wait
584 2011-07-16 03:48:34 <weidai> I am the real satoshi
585 2011-07-16 03:48:46 <phantomcircuit> satoshi_, you are the real satoshi aren't you
586 2011-07-16 03:49:05 <satoshi_> i'd answer that...but i'd have to kill ya.
587 2011-07-16 03:49:13 <phantomcircuit> oh well that's a no
588 2011-07-16 03:49:16 <phantomcircuit> thanks for playing
589 2011-07-16 03:49:20 FellowTraveler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
590 2011-07-16 03:50:15 satoshi_ has quit (Client Quit)
591 2011-07-16 03:51:17 <bliket_> The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
592 2011-07-16 03:51:53 <bliket_> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5434660.ece
593 2011-07-16 03:52:04 <bliket_> i think satoshi expected us all to read this
594 2011-07-16 03:52:13 <bliket_> TLDR
595 2011-07-16 03:53:17 weidai has left ()
596 2011-07-16 03:53:56 <bliket_> It's just meant for proof that the blockchain didn't start until jan 13th
597 2011-07-16 03:54:06 somuchwin2 has joined
598 2011-07-16 03:54:11 <bliket_> 2009
599 2011-07-16 03:54:23 <bliket_> jan 3rd*
600 2011-07-16 03:54:25 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
601 2011-07-16 03:54:33 <zeph97> he could choose other article, but why that was chosen?
602 2011-07-16 03:54:41 <zeph97> yeah, he want us to read it :)
603 2011-07-16 03:54:56 <gmaxwell> Because its a snark about the current economic systems in use.
604 2011-07-16 03:56:36 <bliket_> maybe he had no political motivations
605 2011-07-16 03:56:55 <Akiron> gmaxwell: any sense where the special transaction that indicates where new mined bitcoins are to be sent is made and included in a block?
606 2011-07-16 03:57:02 unclemantis has joined
607 2011-07-16 03:57:03 <bliket_> it's just a coincidence he used some random financial new story
608 2011-07-16 03:57:34 hwolf has joined
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613 2011-07-16 03:57:57 <Akiron> bliket_: he choose a British newspaper to get everyone off the scent that he lives in the U.S.
614 2011-07-16 03:58:27 <gmaxwell> Akiron: hm? it's called the coinbase transaction, it's the first one included in the block.
615 2011-07-16 03:58:39 <unclemantis> i am looking at Casascius's paper wallet and I see a Private key and a hex code. When I try and convert the private key (which i think is base58) to hex (base16) I get an error saying that the key is not a valid base58 string. I then do the reverse and try and change the hex to base58 and I get something that completely does not resemble the private key at all. What am i doing wrong?
616 2011-07-16 03:58:49 <gmaxwell> Akiron: he pretty reliably used UK english.
617 2011-07-16 03:58:49 <Akiron> gmaxwell: oh duh, that makes so much sense
618 2011-07-16 03:59:15 <Akiron> gmaxwell: yeah, but he sleeps like he's in the Western Hemisphere
619 2011-07-16 03:59:52 <bliket_> when have we last heard from satoshi?
620 2011-07-16 04:00:09 <gmaxwell> Akiron: so do many UK hackers, night shifted...
621 2011-07-16 04:00:31 <Akiron> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3;sa=statPanel
622 2011-07-16 04:00:37 <hwolf> Akiron: are you saying programers work 9-5pm? Most guys i know stay up all night long
623 2011-07-16 04:00:41 <Akiron> i guess satoshi deleted his posts
624 2011-07-16 04:02:01 <Akiron> hwolf: well, it's possible, but absent evidence to suggest so, i'm not moved
625 2011-07-16 04:02:20 <gmaxwell> Who knows? Who cares. It's not important.
626 2011-07-16 04:02:29 <Akiron> satoshi deleted his posting time activity
627 2011-07-16 04:02:34 <Akiron> good thing i have a backup
628 2011-07-16 04:02:48 <gmaxwell> Akiron: or it doesn't keep it for inactive users.
629 2011-07-16 04:03:00 <Akiron> possible
630 2011-07-16 04:03:16 MinerT has joined
631 2011-07-16 04:03:21 <Akiron> in any event, fun to speculate
632 2011-07-16 04:03:22 <gmaxwell> the posts are still there.
633 2011-07-16 04:03:53 <hwolf> I like the wacky theories, like he is from the future.
634 2011-07-16 04:04:04 <hwolf> or from outer space
635 2011-07-16 04:04:29 <unclemantis> or from the ground
636 2011-07-16 04:05:24 <bliket_> he is a plant
637 2011-07-16 04:05:28 <gmaxwell> He's actually a woman in south america.
638 2011-07-16 04:05:55 <bliket_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-sxSd1uwoU I found him
639 2011-07-16 04:05:56 <gmaxwell> anibalayles@yahoo.com.ar
640 2011-07-16 04:06:04 <gmaxwell> ^ Satoshi
641 2011-07-16 04:06:31 unclemantis has quit ()
642 2011-07-16 04:07:11 <hwolf> he is living and functioning in 6th dimensional space with bee's
643 2011-07-16 04:07:34 <senseles> kind of not surprising that it was invented in argentina
644 2011-07-16 04:07:36 <hwolf> you see the reason all of the bee population is dieing is because BTC was created
645 2011-07-16 04:07:38 <Akiron> satoshi = deep throat
646 2011-07-16 04:09:14 <gmaxwell> yea, a portal to the bee dimension was opened by the tevatron, and satoshi came through to teach use the method that the hyper-bees use for consensus currency.
647 2011-07-16 04:09:33 <hwolf> I knew it!
648 2011-07-16 04:09:42 <gmaxwell> The whole hive heritage made them really good at decenteralized protocols.
649 2011-07-16 04:10:36 shLONG has quit ()
650 2011-07-16 04:10:38 <bliket_> that isnt satoshi
651 2011-07-16 04:10:49 <bliket_> that is just some guy that happened to be called satoshi
652 2011-07-16 04:11:08 <gmaxwell> And isn't satoshi some guy that happened to be called satoshi ??
653 2011-07-16 04:11:10 <gmaxwell> ;)
654 2011-07-16 04:11:17 <bliket_> [21:02] <gmaxwell> anibalayles@yahoo.com.ar
655 2011-07-16 04:11:55 sacarlson has joined
656 2011-07-16 04:12:03 <gmaxwell> well of course not, does that look like the name of a cross dimensional hyper-bee?
657 2011-07-16 04:12:48 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
658 2011-07-16 04:13:15 <bliket_> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/market/members/view/?market_memberID=1357
659 2011-07-16 04:13:31 <bliket_> apparently this guy has only traded 4 times on the bitcoin market
660 2011-07-16 04:13:44 JRWR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
661 2011-07-16 04:14:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Eric Hosmer master * r88cab1e / src/makefile.vc : Added crypter to makefile.vc. - http://bit.ly/mSylms https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/88cab1e4a32febe9cd4633f03cdaff830110f2d1
662 2011-07-16 04:14:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r133ccbe / src/makefile.vc : Merge pull request #418 from EricJ2190/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/133ccbe4087514501dec1f7496c62489437f0db8
663 2011-07-16 04:15:09 MetaV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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665 2011-07-16 04:17:03 <hwolf> bee's had one purpose, and that was to explain and teach the only human that could understand 6th dimensional thought how to create a decentralized form of money. the creation of bitcoin coincides with the drastic decline in bee populations. the bee's are checking out of planet earth now that bitcoin was created
666 2011-07-16 04:17:12 MinerT has quit (Quit: Page closed)
667 2011-07-16 04:17:27 <IO-> nono, satoshi was the fifth beatle
668 2011-07-16 04:18:02 <hwolf> satoshi is actually a bee's that figures out how to communicate over the internet
669 2011-07-16 04:18:12 <sacarlson> does the coinDD of 30% mean that bitcoin has only had 36.2% of it's total coins ever in circulation? as seen in http://abe.john-edwin-tobey.org/
670 2011-07-16 04:18:13 <hwolf> I mean he is a group of bee's
671 2011-07-16 04:18:54 <quellhorst> bees have moved their brains to the internet
672 2011-07-16 04:19:01 <quellhorst> in amazon ec2 and s3
673 2011-07-16 04:19:23 <hwolf> the bee's started the whole p2p cloud revolution and we were just now catching on
674 2011-07-16 04:19:48 <b4epoche> damn africanized bees
675 2011-07-16 04:20:08 cjdelisle has joined
676 2011-07-16 04:20:27 <IO-> africanInternetized bees?
677 2011-07-16 04:21:12 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: thats not what coinDD is measuring.
678 2011-07-16 04:21:21 <sacarlson> everyone know that satoshi is an extraterstrial that never even came to earth just taped into the Internet and provided bitcoin tech.
679 2011-07-16 04:21:28 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh what is it?
680 2011-07-16 04:22:03 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: if you hold onto 10 btc for 1 day and send it to another address thats 10 bitcoin days destroyed.
681 2011-07-16 04:22:33 <gmaxwell> That char calculates what percentage of the total possible number of BDD have happened.
682 2011-07-16 04:23:05 <gmaxwell> So e.g. if the first block were spent 24 hours after it was first created, then that would destroy just one day (a very small number from that count)
683 2011-07-16 04:23:20 HarryS has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
684 2011-07-16 04:23:41 <gmaxwell> effectively it's a measure of how much of the economic activity is coins that have been sitting still for a while.
685 2011-07-16 04:23:43 HarryS has joined
686 2011-07-16 04:24:36 <beppu> has satoshi resurfaced or is he still MIA?
687 2011-07-16 04:24:39 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I see my number as only 7% because my economic activity on weeds is small
688 2011-07-16 04:24:50 justmoon has joined
689 2011-07-16 04:25:08 <sacarlson> beppu: I told you guys he's an ET
690 2011-07-16 04:25:20 <sacarlson> beppu: had to back to the big ship
691 2011-07-16 04:26:29 CheapScotsman has joined
692 2011-07-16 04:26:47 <beppu> will bitcoin be enough to wrest control of the money supply from the Rotschilds ;)
693 2011-07-16 04:26:47 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: so I wonder how would this coinDD compare if seen against say the USD or ERO?
694 2011-07-16 04:27:45 <CheapScotsman> So I got a second PSU set up but now it has both of my core clocks stuck at 157MHz for two 5830s and I can't change it...
695 2011-07-16 04:27:54 <CheapScotsman> Anyone have an idea of what that may be?
696 2011-07-16 04:28:50 Guest91570 is now known as MBS
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702 2011-07-16 04:39:54 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Test build #10: STILL FAILING in 18 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Test/10/
703 2011-07-16 04:39:55 <BlueMattBot> EricJ2190: Added crypter to makefile.vc.
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749 2011-07-16 05:43:13 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt applied WM patch at https://github.com/devrandom/wxWidgets-release and new bitcoin gitian config at https://github.com/devrandom/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian.yml
750 2011-07-16 05:43:13 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
751 2011-07-16 05:44:33 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt not fully tested yet
752 2011-07-16 05:44:33 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
753 2011-07-16 05:45:12 infinitev has joined
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755 2011-07-16 05:47:59 genjix has joined
756 2011-07-16 05:48:07 <genjix> any channel admins around>
757 2011-07-16 05:48:08 <genjix> ?
758 2011-07-16 05:48:15 <genjix> nanotube: ?
759 2011-07-16 05:49:12 <genjix> brocktice: hey
760 2011-07-16 05:49:51 <genjix> Keefe: hey
761 2011-07-16 05:50:00 <genjix> someone who has chanoops on #bitcoin-otc
762 2011-07-16 05:51:17 <genjix> cmon, you can stop people getting potentially scammed
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777 2011-07-16 06:26:09 <bliket_> Early adopter selling all his bitcoins: http://blockexplorer.com/address/12higDjoCCNXSA95xZMWUdPvXNmkAduhWv
778 2011-07-16 06:26:15 <bliket_> on 6-15
779 2011-07-16 06:26:25 <bliket_> exactly 1 month ago
780 2011-07-16 06:26:32 brunner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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782 2011-07-16 06:27:32 <bliket_> 77624BTC
783 2011-07-16 06:27:55 unitux has left ()
784 2011-07-16 06:28:14 wardearia has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
785 2011-07-16 06:28:47 <wirehead> he can retire now
786 2011-07-16 06:29:36 <wirehead> his magnum opus was setting up a bunch of rigs and letting them run all day
787 2011-07-16 06:29:51 wardearia has joined
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793 2011-07-16 06:53:44 <infinitev> so can someone fill me in is hdtv chips the newest thing in bitcoin mining?
794 2011-07-16 06:53:50 <infinitev> or is there an even better one now
795 2011-07-16 06:54:31 <[Tycho]> What is "hdtv chips" ?
796 2011-07-16 06:58:33 RazielZ has joined
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799 2011-07-16 07:00:20 <infinitev> people were ripping the chips from hdtv and using them to calculate the SHA hashes at quite a high speed anyone here know anything about it
800 2011-07-16 07:01:36 <infinitev> lol
801 2011-07-16 07:02:03 <wirehead> that sounds so impractical
802 2011-07-16 07:02:05 <forrestv> infinitev, i'd guess that those are just fpgas
803 2011-07-16 07:02:14 <forrestv> there's no reason for them to have a sha-256 asic ...
804 2011-07-16 07:02:30 <wirehead> oh my gaw let's butcher hdtvs for their chips instead of directly ordering them
805 2011-07-16 07:02:32 <infinitev> ahh
806 2011-07-16 07:02:47 <infinitev> well i haven't done it
807 2011-07-16 07:02:58 <infinitev> and those things die soo quick, they just replace them if they go
808 2011-07-16 07:03:01 Beccara_ has joined
809 2011-07-16 07:03:24 <infinitev> so i don't think anyone is going out anf getting hdtv just for chips but using old ones for parts etc
810 2011-07-16 07:05:12 <infinitev> trying to find the calculation but they were managing to get 4.0 Ghash/s they reckoned
811 2011-07-16 07:05:25 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
812 2011-07-16 07:06:05 <infinitev> just wanted to know if anyone had messed with this tech
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815 2011-07-16 07:07:05 <infinitev> forrestv: thats a pretty good hash rate yeah, or is that slow compared to some new technique i'm not aware of yet?
816 2011-07-16 07:07:54 <doublec> it sounds like a myth
817 2011-07-16 07:08:11 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
818 2011-07-16 07:08:18 <infinitev> well i'll get the calculation
819 2011-07-16 07:08:23 <infinitev> and you can see for yourself
820 2011-07-16 07:08:35 <infinitev> the maths is solid
821 2011-07-16 07:08:48 DaQatz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
822 2011-07-16 07:09:22 <infinitev> i'm not trying to make out like I know, but really just trying to get your opinions
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824 2011-07-16 07:10:00 <doublec> my opinion is it is a clever marketing campaign by hdtv manufacturers to sell more tv's
825 2011-07-16 07:10:13 <infinitev> lol @ wirehead --> thats it send me your hdtv i'm gonna rip out the chips :P
826 2011-07-16 07:10:29 <doublec> obviously they are jealous of the number of ati gpu's being sold for mining purposes
827 2011-07-16 07:10:38 <infinitev> doublec.. ok
828 2011-07-16 07:10:46 <infinitev> lol
829 2011-07-16 07:12:44 <infinitev> FPGA mining is different to GPU mining right?
830 2011-07-16 07:13:08 karnac has joined
831 2011-07-16 07:13:41 <infinitev> doublec: cause what you said would only make sense if they were :P
832 2011-07-16 07:14:03 <infinitev> well it really wouldn't make sense either way
833 2011-07-16 07:14:05 <infinitev> but hey
834 2011-07-16 07:14:39 <infinitev> ***weren't
835 2011-07-16 07:14:53 <infinitev> grammar out the window time for coffee
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837 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> How likely is it that running Bitcoin mining on FPGA mining will come to replace GPU mining? If it is likely, how long will it be?
838 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> Consider the following:
839 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> FPGA is more energy (and space) efficient than GPUs.
840 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> Cost and energy efficient GPUs are consistently out of stock (the 58xx series, for example, is next to impossible to find right now).
841 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> AMD isn't likely to produce substantial improvements to mining performance with the HD 7xxx series (just look at the lack of a 5xxx -> 6xxx series improvement, and consider that 7xxx is likely to use 6xxx architecture).
842 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> Therefore unless the price per BTC continues to increase in tandem with difficulty, we may reach a point where mining on most GPU hardware is no longer profitable (and hardware which IS profitable is impossible to obtain).
843 2011-07-16 07:15:50 <infinitev> The only obstacles with FPGA mining seem to be 1) the willingness of individuals to share information. That is, FPGA mining seems to be falling victim to a "trade secret" mentality. Although an open-source FPGA miner was released recently so there is some willingness. And 2) the upfront cost which is significantly more than current GPUs. However, this cost may be largely due to a lack of
844 2011-07-16 07:15:51 <infinitev> optimizations which are currently kept secret (see #1).
845 2011-07-16 07:15:51 <infinitev> Thoughts?
846 2011-07-16 07:17:10 <infinitev> ^^^^^ read that doublec
847 2011-07-16 07:17:25 Nexus7 has joined
848 2011-07-16 07:19:13 <doublec> infinitev: I'm not at all interested, sorry
849 2011-07-16 07:19:20 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
850 2011-07-16 07:19:36 <doublec> infinitev: My comment was only to indicate my complete disbelief that anything involving hdtv's is going on
851 2011-07-16 07:21:22 <infinitev> they used hdtv chips to make the fpga array
852 2011-07-16 07:21:24 <mtrlt> yeah sounds like bullshit
853 2011-07-16 07:21:30 <infinitev> okay
854 2011-07-16 07:21:34 <infinitev> its bullshit
855 2011-07-16 07:21:41 <infinitev> keep mining with your gpu's
856 2011-07-16 07:22:24 <mtrlt> well so far i've only heard one person tell an anecdotal story
857 2011-07-16 07:22:38 <senseles> it's already not profitable on most systems
858 2011-07-16 07:22:47 <senseles> but that doesnt stop people from trying to buy 6990s
859 2011-07-16 07:22:57 mtve has joined
860 2011-07-16 07:22:58 <senseles> human beings are dumb
861 2011-07-16 07:23:03 <infinitev> mtrlt: constructive all i heard from you was thats bullshit
862 2011-07-16 07:23:13 <mtrlt> infinitev: that's all one can say to an anecdotal story
863 2011-07-16 07:23:19 <doublec> infinitev: I'm not saying fpga's are or are not useful, or gpu's are or are not dead
864 2011-07-16 07:23:30 <mtrlt> infinitev: anecdotal story that sounds very far-fetched, i might ad.
865 2011-07-16 07:23:31 <mtrlt> add
866 2011-07-16 07:23:34 <infinitev> doublec: ahh
867 2011-07-16 07:23:36 <doublec> infinitev: like mtrlt, there's nothing showing anything about hdtv's other than you
868 2011-07-16 07:23:49 <doublec> infinitev: so I'm saying "I don't believe this hdtv stuff"
869 2011-07-16 07:23:50 <infinitev> mtrlt: how about do some research then answer the wuestion when you know what your talking about
870 2011-07-16 07:23:54 <mtrlt> yea i was talking about the hdtv stuff
871 2011-07-16 07:23:58 <infinitev> i am not saying this is true thats why i am fucking asking
872 2011-07-16 07:24:03 <mtrlt> i know fpgas can be used for mining.
873 2011-07-16 07:24:42 <doublec> infinitev: thanks for asking. the answer to your query is "highly unlikely"
874 2011-07-16 07:24:56 <infinitev> what is an fpga array's made up of
875 2011-07-16 07:24:58 <mtrlt> i concur
876 2011-07-16 07:24:58 <infinitev> tell me
877 2011-07-16 07:25:00 brunner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
878 2011-07-16 07:25:04 <doublec> infinitev: if your query is "are people ripping apart hdtv's for mining"
879 2011-07-16 07:25:20 <infinitev> well i fucking read an article on bitcoin forum that said that dude
880 2011-07-16 07:25:23 <doublec> infinitev: I don't care what fpga array's are made of
881 2011-07-16 07:25:29 <mtrlt> infinitev: you'd better give a link then :P
882 2011-07-16 07:25:29 <Eliel_> well, if he hdtv stuff has fpga:s in them that can be removed intact, there are some people positioned so they could get them reasonably cheaply that way.
883 2011-07-16 07:25:40 <infinitev> thanks Eliel_
884 2011-07-16 07:25:48 brunner has joined
885 2011-07-16 07:25:51 <mtrlt> Eliel_: but i find that highly unlikely
886 2011-07-16 07:25:55 <mtrlt> Eliel_: the first part that is.
887 2011-07-16 07:26:07 <infinitev> well you'd be wrong mtrlt according to my research
888 2011-07-16 07:26:09 <mtrlt> the second part is possible
889 2011-07-16 07:26:20 <mtrlt> infinitev: so far you've only talked and not given a single link anywhere
890 2011-07-16 07:26:26 <infinitev> one sec
891 2011-07-16 07:26:34 <doublec> infinitev: so why ask, if you've done all the research already?
892 2011-07-16 07:26:34 Beccara has joined
893 2011-07-16 07:26:40 <mtrlt> yeah
894 2011-07-16 07:26:48 <infinitev> cause i am asking for someone ho knows about it
895 2011-07-16 07:26:52 <infinitev> not people who don't
896 2011-07-16 07:27:07 <mtrlt> >_>
897 2011-07-16 07:27:07 <infinitev> who are gonna say i don't know but its unlikely
898 2011-07-16 07:27:25 <mtrlt> where's the link at
899 2011-07-16 07:27:32 <doublec> he's busy writing it
900 2011-07-16 07:27:35 <infinitev> fuck ya if i had the link
901 2011-07-16 07:27:36 genjix has left ()
902 2011-07-16 07:27:42 <infinitev> i would have pasted it by now
903 2011-07-16 07:27:44 <infinitev> douchebag
904 2011-07-16 07:27:51 <infinitev> i'm trying to find it
905 2011-07-16 07:27:53 <mtrlt> lol
906 2011-07-16 07:28:15 <doublec> if I had shares in hdtv companies I'd be writing it right now
907 2011-07-16 07:28:35 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
908 2011-07-16 07:29:42 <mtrlt> okay just did a google search for +hdtv fpga bitcoin
909 2011-07-16 07:29:54 <mtrlt> was it that hard ,really :P
910 2011-07-16 07:31:03 <infinitev> ahah
911 2011-07-16 07:31:16 <infinitev> http://hackaday.com/2007/08/31/nsahome-diy-shared-fpga-cracker/
912 2011-07-16 07:31:21 <infinitev> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16918.0
913 2011-07-16 07:31:52 <infinitev> so yeah
914 2011-07-16 07:32:17 <mtrlt> well, now i believe :P
915 2011-07-16 07:32:20 <infinitev> can someone who knows what they're talking about fill me in whether this technique is the best to go forward with or if there is something better to do with
916 2011-07-16 07:32:48 <mtrlt> if you can get cheap fpgas, go for it.
917 2011-07-16 07:33:01 <Eliel_> yep, this won't work for everyone
918 2011-07-16 07:33:54 <Eliel_> good thing I've got flat rate electricity :)
919 2011-07-16 07:34:18 <Eliel_> so, other than dealing with the heat, I don't need to worry about energy efficiency :P
920 2011-07-16 07:34:26 <infinitev> really flat rate electricity
921 2011-07-16 07:34:29 <infinitev> thats awesome
922 2011-07-16 07:34:43 <infinitev> what country is that
923 2011-07-16 07:34:58 <infinitev> Eliel_: ?
924 2011-07-16 07:35:08 <senseles> they did that stuff in crappy apartments in college
925 2011-07-16 07:35:22 <senseles> flat rate electricity i mean
926 2011-07-16 07:35:23 <Eliel_> Finland, student apartment :P
927 2011-07-16 07:35:27 <mtrlt> Eliel_: heat and the noise :-P
928 2011-07-16 07:35:46 <mtrlt> i couldn't have had 4x6990 in the student box i lived in a year ago.
929 2011-07-16 07:35:51 magn3ts has joined
930 2011-07-16 07:36:15 <Eliel_> yeah, if I'm going to get that much heating going on, I do need to figure out some way to get the heat out
931 2011-07-16 07:36:31 <Eliel_> so far I'm only doing 550Mh/s though, so...
932 2011-07-16 07:36:56 <cjdelisle> fpgas are interesting but I figure at some point someone will show up with asics for sale cheap.
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934 2011-07-16 07:41:42 <Eliel_> well, at least that fpga thing (advertised as cheap) is ... well... expensive.
935 2011-07-16 07:41:48 <senseles> lol
936 2011-07-16 07:41:49 <senseles> http://www.elance.com/j/bitcoin-mining-asic-board/24713081/
937 2011-07-16 07:41:51 <Eliel_> $20k for one board
938 2011-07-16 07:42:43 <senseles> i'd pay that if it were capable of like 40ghash/s
939 2011-07-16 07:42:55 <Eliel_> yeah, it only does around a tenth of that.
940 2011-07-16 07:43:04 <Eliel_> at least with current software
941 2011-07-16 07:43:13 <senseles> i guess the biggest step is production?
942 2011-07-16 07:43:23 <senseles> once its designed, etc?
943 2011-07-16 07:43:57 <Eliel_> yep, think so.
944 2011-07-16 07:44:30 <[Tycho]> The biggest stop is mask creation.
945 2011-07-16 07:44:49 <senseles> http://asicminer.net/?p=22
946 2011-07-16 07:45:06 <[Tycho]> Mask set for modern real ASIC should cost about $1 000 000
947 2011-07-16 07:45:16 <senseles> wonder what thats about
948 2011-07-16 07:45:19 <Eliel_> but if the hdtv systems use those same fpga chips, someone able to put together a board like this and then make it usable on a system... well... I'm finding myself doubting the chips from hdtv:s would be so useful
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952 2011-07-16 07:46:05 <Eliel_> [Tycho]: the mask, that's something physical?
953 2011-07-16 07:46:11 <[Tycho]> Yes.
954 2011-07-16 07:46:16 pixglen has joined
955 2011-07-16 07:46:35 <pixglen> hey guys, help test my bitcoin exchange http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29057.0
956 2011-07-16 07:47:46 <[Tycho]> Structured ASICs are like 50 times cheaper.
957 2011-07-16 07:48:32 <cjdelisle> Yea those links don't look promising
958 2011-07-16 07:49:52 <cjdelisle> I was imagining someone who worked at a foundry that did small production runs would build them but I suppose it would be more investement than any individual could pony up.
959 2011-07-16 07:54:58 <senseles> arent there existing chips you can just plaster on pcb ?
960 2011-07-16 07:54:59 Nexus7 has quit ()
961 2011-07-16 07:55:24 <senseles> when you're talking about production runs you mean for a specialized processor?
962 2011-07-16 07:55:28 <Eliel_> cjdelisle: aside from those with huge numbers of bitcoins stacked up.
963 2011-07-16 07:56:52 <senseles> so fpga chips you're looking at like 200mhash/s for 8 watts?
964 2011-07-16 07:57:02 <senseles> there was a thread on the forum where some guy was making his own boards
965 2011-07-16 07:57:04 <[Tycho]> senseles, check wikipedia for "FPGA" and "ASIC" terms to see the difference.
966 2011-07-16 07:57:35 <senseles> i understand the difference but i wasnt sure if you were talking about the production of PCB, etc to be expensive
967 2011-07-16 07:57:44 <senseles> or if it was the chip fabrication that was the most expensive
968 2011-07-16 07:57:51 <senseles> seems FPGA would be a good short cut
969 2011-07-16 07:58:10 <[Tycho]> PCBs are cheap
970 2011-07-16 07:58:38 JFK911_ has joined
971 2011-07-16 07:58:39 <senseles> so if you can get your hands on some cheap FPGA chips you could slap them on PCB and at least have a more cost effective way than GPU's to mine
972 2011-07-16 07:58:55 <senseles> im assuming thats what the guy was talking about with HDTV
973 2011-07-16 07:58:58 <senseles> chips
974 2011-07-16 07:59:02 <[Tycho]> FPGAs are expensive and a little bit slower, but you can use different firmware and upgrade them as you wish.
975 2011-07-16 07:59:44 <[Tycho]> ASICs are cheap, but they aren't reprogrammable and you need very expensive masks to start a production run of real chips.
976 2011-07-16 08:00:01 <senseles> mask to etch onto the wafer?
977 2011-07-16 08:00:04 <[Tycho]> Yes.
978 2011-07-16 08:00:08 brunner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
979 2011-07-16 08:00:26 <[Tycho]> (Cheap if thousands+ ordered, of course)
980 2011-07-16 08:00:41 <senseles> once you have a mask is it reusable or does it degrade over time?
981 2011-07-16 08:00:50 <senseles> like, is there a maximum production run per mask?
982 2011-07-16 08:00:52 <[Tycho]> It will last long enough.
983 2011-07-16 08:01:09 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
984 2011-07-16 08:03:12 <senseles> can one chip design for an asic be better than another?
985 2011-07-16 08:03:25 Lobster_Man has joined
986 2011-07-16 08:03:27 <senseles> or would 2 completely different people who set out to make an asic for mining end up at the same result
987 2011-07-16 08:03:43 LobsterMan has quit (Disconnected by services)
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989 2011-07-16 08:03:58 <senseles> would spacing matter? like, 32nm etching vs 65nm?
990 2011-07-16 08:04:05 <[Tycho]> Yes.
991 2011-07-16 08:04:08 Lobster_Man is now known as LobsterMan
992 2011-07-16 08:04:13 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
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994 2011-07-16 08:04:17 <[Tycho]> It's very important.
995 2011-07-16 08:04:32 PwnusMaximus_ has joined
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997 2011-07-16 08:04:44 <[Tycho]> Chip packaging is also important.
998 2011-07-16 08:04:48 JRWR has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1012 2011-07-16 08:05:40 <senseles> so even if someone did set out to make an asic
1013 2011-07-16 08:05:47 <senseles> there could be an overlooked flaw when they go to make the mask
1014 2011-07-16 08:05:54 <senseles> and then they end up printing 10,000 nonfunctional chips
1015 2011-07-16 08:05:57 <senseles> that would suck
1016 2011-07-16 08:06:08 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1017 2011-07-16 08:06:46 <[Tycho]> Well, they should do appropriate design tests.
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1027 2011-07-16 08:21:03 <Joric> starting from today google code supports git
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1060 2011-07-16 09:10:37 <CheapScotsman> I'm having an issue where GUIMiner will open to my taskbar but won't pull up into a GUI window
1061 2011-07-16 09:10:49 <CheapScotsman> and no double clicking or exiting/opening changes such, anyone experience this?
1062 2011-07-16 09:13:15 Happy0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1066 2011-07-16 09:18:14 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
1067 2011-07-16 09:18:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136543 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 544 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 10 hours, 57 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1679374.45194400
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1071 2011-07-16 09:26:10 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r63ec45e / (10 files in 2 dirs): Renamed Accounting to KeyIndex. ... https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/63ec45eb9d6e83a43f004bd263e9eb359945a994
1072 2011-07-16 09:26:11 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * ra6a450d / (4 files in 2 dirs): Use hashes as _id. Fixes GH-7. - http://bit.ly/pSKlhC https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/a6a450d33779ae8b530a7306718db75d57dde43b
1073 2011-07-16 09:30:28 <md2k7> I limit the connections on my only port-forwarded bitcoind
1074 2011-07-16 09:31:04 <md2k7> I now have the problem that I can't connect to it via -addnode or -connect, because all connections are used up
1075 2011-07-16 09:31:13 <md2k7> is there a way to "reserve" a connection slot for my other machines?
1076 2011-07-16 09:32:50 <infinitev> [tycho], senseles thanks guys for that info
1077 2011-07-16 09:33:32 <infinitev> and Eliel_
1078 2011-07-16 09:34:42 AStove has joined
1079 2011-07-16 09:35:43 <infinitev> from what i can see is that ROI on fpga arrays is okay atm, but as the difficulty of bitcoin goes up it will need to get much cheaper to be worthwhile
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1087 2011-07-16 09:48:14 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r2793e3d / lib/blockchain.js : Insert all transactions for a block in a single query. - http://bit.ly/oWpt7f https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/2793e3d80454c20a2106dbe065711e31b2a60ca8
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1101 2011-07-16 10:16:46 <lfm> md2k7 I dont think there would be any way to reserve a connection port
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1109 2011-07-16 10:34:21 <prof7bit> i cant believe it. Google mail is giving me COBOL related advertisements now. I never told them my age.
1110 2011-07-16 10:34:38 <BlueMatt> lol
1111 2011-07-16 10:34:42 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1112 2011-07-16 10:35:30 <Joric> well you're using pascal thats why
1113 2011-07-16 10:35:35 <prof7bit> lol
1114 2011-07-16 10:35:47 <dsockwell> reminds me of when google kept trying to sell me gene sequencers
1115 2011-07-16 10:36:43 <Joric> germans landed http://bit-coin-trading.com/forum/index.php?topic=36.msg49#new
1116 2011-07-16 10:36:43 <sipa> i used to play a online html game called 'the last knights' - it was remarkable how often i got an ad about "Find army singles now!"
1117 2011-07-16 10:37:12 <Joric> "Because I had video proof of sending the BitCoins, PayPal actually reversed some of the chargebacks"
1118 2011-07-16 10:38:24 <dsockwell> i think if that adwords campaign had lasted a little longer i'd be the only homeless man in the state who had his own genetics lab
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1123 2011-07-16 10:46:38 <prof7bit> i need a name for my bitcoin implementation
1124 2011-07-16 10:46:55 <prof7bit> fpBitCoin maybe?
1125 2011-07-16 10:47:09 <mtrlt> unimaginative :(
1126 2011-07-16 10:47:23 <mtrlt> like, many pools have "bitcoin pool" in the name. equally unimaginative :(
1127 2011-07-16 10:47:37 <mtrlt> or that diablo made a miner called diablominer
1128 2011-07-16 10:48:17 erle- has joined
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1130 2011-07-16 10:50:46 <prof7bit> maybe fpBitCoin only for the non-gui core units that implement the protocol in the same tradition that many free pascal cross platform reimplementations of former delphi/windows only things start with fp in their name.
1131 2011-07-16 10:51:06 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1132 2011-07-16 10:52:12 <prof7bit> i could then postpone the decision how to name the full blown GUI app for a while.
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1135 2011-07-16 10:55:35 <Joric> i wrote a sound engine back in 2002, was inspired by the 'Useless Sound Player' kindof a nice name
1136 2011-07-16 10:55:36 <prof7bit> or maybe something with "Turbo" in its name might also trigger some associations (in people who are older than 35)
1137 2011-07-16 10:55:45 <Joric> name it useless bitcoin client
1138 2011-07-16 10:56:27 slush has joined
1139 2011-07-16 10:56:58 <prof7bit> it should not contain words with negative associations.
1140 2011-07-16 10:57:10 <Joric> http://www.hornet.org/cgi-bin/scene-search.cgi?search=FreddyV
1141 2011-07-16 10:57:43 <mtrlt> well, how about "useless piece of shit". double negative cancels out
1142 2011-07-16 10:58:38 <prof7bit> no
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1152 2011-07-16 11:14:52 <Joric> http://i54.tinypic.com/14ahpg3.jpg
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1169 2011-07-16 11:39:06 <prof7bit> how big are the openssl libraries on windows if i bundle my app with only the minimum needed binaries from openssl?
1170 2011-07-16 11:39:55 <prof7bit> (too lazy now to start windows and download and install it)
1171 2011-07-16 11:40:05 <BlueMatt> openssl binaries are really small
1172 2011-07-16 11:40:05 Zagitta has joined
1173 2011-07-16 11:40:08 <BlueMatt> compared to boost, etc
1174 2011-07-16 11:42:10 <prof7bit> openssl will be the only dependency (and i needed 2 days to convince myself to use it instead of some small native pascal implementation)
1175 2011-07-16 11:42:43 <sipa> how far are you with the implementation
1176 2011-07-16 11:42:44 <sipa> ?
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1178 2011-07-16 11:44:48 <prof7bit> i spent the whole day (only my free time) with evaluating how to link to openssl yesterday and find out which parts of the headers to port, i did nothing on the p2p stuff yesterday.
1179 2011-07-16 11:46:16 <prof7bit> now i have all stuff and all needed libs together and can start working on the application again.
1180 2011-07-16 11:47:06 <prof7bit> the crypto stuff was the only big question mark remaining until yesterday
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1182 2011-07-16 11:48:11 <Zagitta> Is there any information about how to construct the merkle root on the wiki?
1183 2011-07-16 11:48:47 <justmoon> Zagitta, BitcoinJ has a very well commented implementation
1184 2011-07-16 11:49:44 <Zagitta> justmoon: splendid, thanks :)
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1186 2011-07-16 11:50:34 <prof7bit> there exists a native pascal implementation of ecdsa (along with its own unit to do big integer arithmetics) but i did not like it, the code looked not very elegant and very 1980's like (without making use of modern language features like some OOP and operator overloading for the bignum stuff)
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1188 2011-07-16 11:52:57 <prof7bit> and also i suspected endian problems in its bignum library and I want a completely portable implementation.
1189 2011-07-16 11:54:17 <prof7bit> so i finally decided to use the well tested openssl instead.
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1191 2011-07-16 11:55:26 <Zagitta> :< i have a feeling all this block downloading and transaction fetching is going to be way over my head
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1194 2011-07-16 11:59:01 <mtrlt> Zagitta: just do it :P
1195 2011-07-16 11:59:13 <mtrlt> don't think how hard it's gonna be
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1197 2011-07-16 12:03:06 <Zagitta> mtrlt: bu bu but :<
1198 2011-07-16 12:04:09 <sipa> Zagitta: take a list of all transaction hashes, then iterate over it, in each step calculating sha256(sha256(hash1 | hash2))
1199 2011-07-16 12:04:21 <sipa> reducing the length of the list in each step by two
1200 2011-07-16 12:04:44 <sipa> and if there is an odd number of hashes in the list, replace the last one with sha256(sha256(hash | hash))
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1202 2011-07-16 12:05:03 <sipa> until there is only one hash left
1203 2011-07-16 12:05:06 <sipa> that's the merkle root
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1205 2011-07-16 12:08:07 <Zagitta> sipa: That was easier than expected... thanks once again :)
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1208 2011-07-16 12:11:49 <Zagitta> does it matter in what order i hash things? Do i for example need to know all the transactions before hashing so they can be iterated or can i simply add them one by one like currentHash = sha256(sha256(hash1 | hash2)) and then add(newHash): currentHash sha256(sha256(currentHash | newHash)) ?
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1210 2011-07-16 12:16:29 <sipa> you don't add them one by one
1211 2011-07-16 12:16:35 <sipa> you halve the number in each step
1212 2011-07-16 12:22:09 <Eliel_> merkle tree it's called I believe.
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1215 2011-07-16 12:22:32 <sipa> yes, and the root of that tree is called the merkle root :)
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1218 2011-07-16 12:23:26 <Zagitta> sipa: i don't think you got my example but nvm it :)
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1220 2011-07-16 12:25:59 <sacarlson> with the new code for aux chain but after reading https://github.com/vinced/namecoin/blob/mergedmine/doc/README_merged-mining.md I think I could just run off aux on an alternate chain and hopefully only as mostly a listener to the bitcoin main net as aux. as a rule only one block per each bitcoin block added to the parent block chain
1221 2011-07-16 12:26:03 <sacarlson> would that work?
1222 2011-07-16 12:26:26 <erus`> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvKUqmEiA3E
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1225 2011-07-16 12:29:01 <sacarlson> so a miner on this new alternate chain would just use bitcoin as a time stamp and first miner to use the validated stamp would mine the block in the alternate chain
1226 2011-07-16 12:30:21 <sacarlson> this I would think would eliminated the need for powerfull mining on alternate chains
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1228 2011-07-16 12:34:34 <sacarlson> if this works it might eliminate the need for my licenced miner project I am happy to say
1229 2011-07-16 12:34:42 sanchaz has joined
1230 2011-07-16 12:36:12 <ar4s> how the hell do I talk in #bitcoin-otc :(
1231 2011-07-16 12:36:29 <BlueMatt> gribble pms you instructions when you join -otc
1232 2011-07-16 12:39:13 stalled has joined
1233 2011-07-16 12:39:44 <ar4s> Ty, didn't think to check there
1234 2011-07-16 12:39:45 <sacarlson> and I'm hoping wouldn't even require any changes in the bitcoin miners to implement as we only need to add changes to the listener miners
1235 2011-07-16 12:41:15 <cjdelisle> what exactly is the problem being solved by merged mining?
1236 2011-07-16 12:41:44 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: in the namecoin or in this new alternate chain?
1237 2011-07-16 12:42:14 <cjdelisle> In your chain
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1239 2011-07-16 12:42:48 <cjdelisle> I don't know what it solves in namecoin either but I assume namecoin has different requirements.
1240 2011-07-16 12:42:50 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: in my chain it would reduce the power needed to keep security for unlimited aux chains
1241 2011-07-16 12:43:30 <cjdelisle> hm
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1243 2011-07-16 12:43:58 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: as we see all these new chains are created that require miners and more power, all that we need is timestamps from the original bitcoin
1244 2011-07-16 12:44:46 <cjdelisle> Ahh, so you are talking about creating an alt chain which tracks the mainline chain.
1245 2011-07-16 12:45:38 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: yes as what is really done in bitcoin it to create validated time stamps to imprint transactions
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1247 2011-07-16 12:46:13 <cjdelisle> So you do some tiny pointless transaction and add to that transaction some piece of information which your chain depends on?
1248 2011-07-16 12:46:45 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: you do realize that if you do this in transactions it actually provides no dicernable increase in security?
1249 2011-07-16 12:46:53 <BlueMatt> only if its done in the coinbase
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1251 2011-07-16 12:47:21 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: no not in a transaction but in a mined block in the alternate chain
1252 2011-07-16 12:47:39 <BlueMatt> that also provides nothing
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1256 2011-07-16 12:48:02 <BlueMatt> the only way to add security to an alternate chain through bitcoin's mining power is to add block hashes of the alternate chain to coinbase in bitcoin
1257 2011-07-16 12:48:20 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: you could have multiple listener miners that monitor bitcoin and the first to broadcast there added solution would add to the alternate chain
1258 2011-07-16 12:48:56 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: yes and that's what the new namecoin software does
1259 2011-07-16 12:49:10 <BlueMatt> wait, you are doing what?
1260 2011-07-16 12:49:10 marvin__ has joined
1261 2011-07-16 12:49:17 <marvin__> ;bc,stats
1262 2011-07-16 12:49:19 <BlueMatt> you have bitcoin block hashes stored in alt chain blocks?
1263 2011-07-16 12:49:30 md2k7 has joined
1264 2011-07-16 12:49:30 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: yes
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1266 2011-07-16 12:49:33 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
1267 2011-07-16 12:49:40 <BlueMatt> what advantage does that possibly give you?
1268 2011-07-16 12:49:42 <marvin__> ;bc,stats
1269 2011-07-16 12:49:53 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
1270 2011-07-16 12:49:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136568 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 519 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 6 hours, 25 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1680539.80897239
1271 2011-07-16 12:49:57 <marvin__> Hey, what happened to gribble?
1272 2011-07-16 12:49:59 <marvin__> nvm
1273 2011-07-16 12:50:14 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I thought with the rule that you could only have one added block per bitcoin block you could pigy back a new chain
1274 2011-07-16 12:50:39 <BlueMatt> that wouldnt work and wouldnt provide additional security
1275 2011-07-16 12:50:40 marvin__ has quit (Client Quit)
1276 2011-07-16 12:50:56 <BlueMatt> a. many nodes throughout the network would have a different idea of the chain
1277 2011-07-16 12:51:01 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: so how is namecoin method working then?
1278 2011-07-16 12:51:16 <BlueMatt> no, ok it would work, but wouldnt provide more security
1279 2011-07-16 12:51:19 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: https://github.com/vinced/namecoin/blob/mergedmine/doc/README_merged-mining.md
1280 2011-07-16 12:51:44 <BlueMatt> how does that add security?
1281 2011-07-16 12:51:44 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: wouldn't provide more security than what bitcoin?
1282 2011-07-16 12:51:56 <BlueMatt> than just a standard separate chain
1283 2011-07-16 12:52:14 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: a separate chain with only 300kh/sec?
1284 2011-07-16 12:52:29 <BlueMatt> yes, this mining method adds no security to that
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1286 2011-07-16 12:53:01 <cjdelisle> sacarlson: you're talking about for example: mining a block then taking the hash of that block and donating a millionth of a coin to an imaginary address equal to the hash of that block?
1287 2011-07-16 12:53:14 <BlueMatt> unless you are actually storing information in bitcoin blocks, you are adding nothing
1288 2011-07-16 12:53:49 <cjdelisle> Because that would sort of work but then your wallet id would be hardcoded into the software and it would trust you asif you were god.
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1290 2011-07-16 12:54:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: you are adding all the transaction that happend in the time between the bitcoin event of a block mineing event
1291 2011-07-16 12:54:46 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: the whole point of alternate chains is: you make not only the alternate chain miners verify the validity of their blocks, but you also make bitcoin miners do it as well. In other words miners are mining on both chains at once with the same hashes
1292 2011-07-16 12:54:57 <BlueMatt> what you are doing here is clearly not that, so you gain nothing
1293 2011-07-16 12:55:13 <BlueMatt> the point is to get more mining power
1294 2011-07-16 12:56:11 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well I assume the linked mining of namecoin will add security to there net?
1295 2011-07-16 12:57:08 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: but I thought the real goal of mining was to create timestamps but I must be wrong
1296 2011-07-16 12:57:33 <BlueMatt> ah that link you just posted, no that is correct as it adds the current merkle hash to the coinbase of bitcoin blocks
1297 2011-07-16 12:57:37 <BlueMatt> no that is not the point of mining
1298 2011-07-16 12:58:41 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: so to take advantage of this new version I would still require mods to bitcoin miners or do a patch to some namecoin pools to acheave added security
1299 2011-07-16 12:58:53 <BlueMatt> yep
1300 2011-07-16 12:59:08 <BlueMatt> that is the *only* way to get more security in a second chain
1301 2011-07-16 12:59:15 <BlueMatt> aside from adding more mining power, that is
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1303 2011-07-16 13:00:37 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well I'm going to incorportate the namecoin method into MultiCoin
1304 2011-07-16 13:00:53 <BlueMatt> well based on that doc, they did it right
1305 2011-07-16 13:00:59 <BlueMatt> which requires bitcoin miners to change...
1306 2011-07-16 13:01:12 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: or namecoin miners
1307 2011-07-16 13:01:17 <BlueMatt> no
1308 2011-07-16 13:01:22 <sacarlson> yes
1309 2011-07-16 13:01:22 <BlueMatt> it requires bitcoin miners to change
1310 2011-07-16 13:01:36 <sacarlson> not if namecoin is my aux and
1311 2011-07-16 13:01:44 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r68c2e7c / (6 files in 3 dirs): Ported RPC functions from jgarzik's getblock branch. - http://bit.ly/qmKmE5 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/68c2e7c07f8fbf9187f13b94058ab0dcbec8bf18
1312 2011-07-16 13:01:46 <BlueMatt> oh, I see what you are saying
1313 2011-07-16 13:01:54 <BlueMatt> yea well yea if you use namecoin as the parent chain
1314 2011-07-16 13:02:04 <BlueMatt> but why would you do that?
1315 2011-07-16 13:02:08 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: yes namecoin as parant
1316 2011-07-16 13:02:16 <BlueMatt> namecoin doesnt have nearly the same power as bitcoin
1317 2011-07-16 13:02:48 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: because I would expect they require less power to produce I could use a smaller pool to get results
1318 2011-07-16 13:03:21 <BlueMatt> well, the doc you posted isnt quite done right, its close, but not quite
1319 2011-07-16 13:03:40 <BlueMatt> in the parent block, instead of storing a merkle root for the subchain
1320 2011-07-16 13:03:56 <BlueMatt> you should store a merkle root for a merkle tree containing the merkle roots of subchains
1321 2011-07-16 13:04:00 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I guess I could create a good single linked to bitcoin and that could become the parant to many if it was that easy
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1323 2011-07-16 13:04:06 <BlueMatt> that way you can have unlimited subchains gaining the same security from bitcoin
1324 2011-07-16 13:04:15 <BlueMatt> instead of crazy trees of sub and super chains
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1326 2011-07-16 13:05:17 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I just asume a big net like bitcoin will take too long to get things done, I want instant changes without much interaction
1327 2011-07-16 13:05:38 <BlueMatt> no, you just need one miner who gets blocks
1328 2011-07-16 13:05:56 <BlueMatt> you dont need to get every miner to change
1329 2011-07-16 13:06:02 <BlueMatt> say, just get one pool
1330 2011-07-16 13:06:15 <BlueMatt> wont provide as much security, but if that pool is trustworthy enough, it would work
1331 2011-07-16 13:06:23 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: so with one pool I'll get blocks every hour?
1332 2011-07-16 13:06:42 <BlueMatt> you dont have to have *every* block in the superchain
1333 2011-07-16 13:06:54 <BlueMatt> blocks are tied to their previous blocks so you can just have one block a week
1334 2011-07-16 13:07:14 <BlueMatt> not as good security, but it provides some
1335 2011-07-16 13:07:54 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: that's why I thought I didn't really need any blocks at all if one a week is good why not one per year or 12 years is what my computer creates
1336 2011-07-16 13:08:17 <BlueMatt> what?
1337 2011-07-16 13:08:32 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: never mine
1338 2011-07-16 13:08:44 mosimo has joined
1339 2011-07-16 13:08:45 <BlueMatt> did you mean never mind, or never mine?
1340 2011-07-16 13:09:25 tcoppi has joined
1341 2011-07-16 13:10:21 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: means I'm not sure what I was talking about need to read more
1342 2011-07-16 13:10:36 <sacarlson> never mind
1343 2011-07-16 13:10:53 <senseles> Does anyone know anything about FPGA that would mind answering a couple of basic questions?
1344 2011-07-16 13:10:57 <sacarlson> sorry mining on my mind
1345 2011-07-16 13:11:42 <[Tycho]> senseles, what questions ?
1346 2011-07-16 13:12:00 <senseles> well i was going through and reading all the forum posts about FPGA
1347 2011-07-16 13:12:08 <senseles> my dad is an EE and i wanted to get a board to play with
1348 2011-07-16 13:12:16 <senseles> I was looking on ebay and i found this
1349 2011-07-16 13:12:17 <senseles> http://cgi.ebay.com/XC52156PQ160C-LOT-72pcs-Xilinx-XC5215-6PQ160C-FPGA-/190348530553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c51a81379
1350 2011-07-16 13:12:27 <senseles> According to what I read on the forum
1351 2011-07-16 13:12:45 <senseles> you need 5000 logic gates roughly for each pipeline
1352 2011-07-16 13:12:52 <sacarlson> senseles: I used to play with xlinx and altera but that was long ago
1353 2011-07-16 13:13:03 <senseles> according to the stats on that chip it's 25000 logic gates @ a max clock speed of 50mhz
1354 2011-07-16 13:13:13 <senseles> according to my math that would me each chip would be capable of 200mhash/s
1355 2011-07-16 13:13:16 <senseles> which can't be right
1356 2011-07-16 13:13:25 <[Tycho]> 5000 gates ? So it's not really unfolded...
1357 2011-07-16 13:13:50 <senseles> what do you mean?
1358 2011-07-16 13:14:12 <senseles> i was a CE so i didn't take many of these classes :(
1359 2011-07-16 13:14:16 <senseles> mainly programming stuff
1360 2011-07-16 13:14:19 <[Tycho]> I would expect more gates to full pipeline (1 clock per hash)
1361 2011-07-16 13:14:46 <sacarlson> senseles: the code is much like programing mostly case stuf we played with
1362 2011-07-16 13:14:47 <senseles> the way i was reading it, it needed 2x 2500 gates for 1 hash per clock
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1365 2011-07-16 13:15:35 <senseles> or did i misread and it was 10000 gates for 1 hash per clock?
1366 2011-07-16 13:15:48 <[Tycho]> Of course I may be wrong.
1367 2011-07-16 13:16:35 <senseles> even with 10000 gates for 1 hash per clock
1368 2011-07-16 13:16:45 <senseles> that would still be 100mhash/s per chip
1369 2011-07-16 13:16:52 <senseles> for a 20$ chip
1370 2011-07-16 13:17:16 <BlueMatt> but whats the power usage compared to a gpu?
1371 2011-07-16 13:17:19 cjdelisle has joined
1372 2011-07-16 13:17:20 <senseles> i guess what im wondering is, everyone says it's expensive yet on ebay it seems like fpga bonanza
1373 2011-07-16 13:17:27 <sacarlson> senseles: I thought there was already open source project for fpga in bitcoin
1374 2011-07-16 13:17:31 <BlueMatt> some of the fgpas arent that great
1375 2011-07-16 13:18:01 <b4epoche> an fpga bonanza? on ebay you say?
1376 2011-07-16 13:18:04 <senseles> i didnt check the power usage but im assuming it'd be less than 75watts
1377 2011-07-16 13:18:15 <senseles> theres a FPGA blade server in there for 9999$
1378 2011-07-16 13:18:17 <mosimo> how much would it cost for the controller boards to run 72 chips like that?
1379 2011-07-16 13:18:24 <mosimo> ah :P
1380 2011-07-16 13:18:41 <senseles> well the PCB would have to be custom designed i suppose
1381 2011-07-16 13:18:57 estornudo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1382 2011-07-16 13:19:06 <senseles> looking at that NSA@Home project it didn't look all too complex
1383 2011-07-16 13:19:17 <senseles> the guy had like 10 chips on PCB inside a 1u chassis
1384 2011-07-16 13:19:29 <b4epoche> link?
1385 2011-07-16 13:19:41 <senseles> http://nsa.unaligned.org/
1386 2011-07-16 13:19:47 <sacarlson> senseles: and power consumption?
1387 2011-07-16 13:20:24 <senseles> if it's FPGA power usage should be < 10 watts for 1 chip
1388 2011-07-16 13:20:30 <senseles> i didn't check
1389 2011-07-16 13:22:15 cjdelisle has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1390 2011-07-16 13:23:35 cjdelisle has joined
1391 2011-07-16 13:23:51 <senseles> everyone got quiet, did you guys go buy up all the FPGA?
1392 2011-07-16 13:23:52 <senseles> :(
1393 2011-07-16 13:24:23 <b4epoche> we're all looking for ways to debunk your idea
1394 2011-07-16 13:24:55 <senseles> kinda what i was looking for because 100mhash/s for 20$ cant be possible
1395 2011-07-16 13:25:45 <b4epoche> http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds083.pdf
1396 2011-07-16 13:25:52 koleg has joined
1397 2011-07-16 13:25:52 <b4epoche> but I don't see any power information
1398 2011-07-16 13:26:48 <b4epoche> and those aren't cheap
1399 2011-07-16 13:27:12 <b4epoche> where's the $20 ones?
1400 2011-07-16 13:27:29 <senseles> http://cgi.ebay.com/XC52156PQ160C-LOT-72pcs-Xilinx-XC5215-6PQ160C-FPGA-/190348530553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c51a81379
1401 2011-07-16 13:27:40 <senseles> its actually 6.75$ each
1402 2011-07-16 13:27:42 <senseles> 72 chips
1403 2011-07-16 13:28:09 <senseles> is that right though?
1404 2011-07-16 13:28:28 Gonzago has joined
1405 2011-07-16 13:28:37 <senseles> logicgates / 5000 or 10000 (unsure if its 2x2500 or 2x5000 that is needed)
1406 2011-07-16 13:28:47 <senseles> * clock speed
1407 2011-07-16 13:28:50 <senseles> = mhash/s ?
1408 2011-07-16 13:29:59 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1409 2011-07-16 13:30:35 <senseles> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8543.0;all
1410 2011-07-16 13:31:59 underscor has joined
1411 2011-07-16 13:32:00 <senseles> "5000 gates per hash engine"
1412 2011-07-16 13:33:30 <senseles> with 25k gates on the chip 5 pipelines per chip x 50mhz clock = 250mhash/s?
1413 2011-07-16 13:33:39 <senseles> cant be right
1414 2011-07-16 13:34:43 <b4epoche> what rates was the NSA guy getting?
1415 2011-07-16 13:35:10 <senseles> unknown
1416 2011-07-16 13:35:18 <senseles> i also don't know what chip he's using
1417 2011-07-16 13:35:40 <b4epoche> he says: http://nsa.unaligned.org/hw.php
1418 2011-07-16 13:37:46 <sacarlson> senseles: well they did publish power using about 240W of power
1419 2011-07-16 13:38:44 <sacarlson> senseles: also equivalent to over 1500 Athlon FX-60 CPUs but I'm not sure hash rate that produces
1420 2011-07-16 13:38:50 skeledrew1 has joined
1421 2011-07-16 13:39:15 <senseles> probably not much
1422 2011-07-16 13:39:18 <b4epoche> looks like he got a real job: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=4275930&authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=rVt0&locale=en_US&srchid=47dd52df-3cd3-4c4b-aa28-006a14223b05-0&srchindex=1&srchtotal=2&goback=%2Efps_PBCK_*1_Stanislaw_Skowronek_*1_*1_*1_*1_*2_*1_Y_*1_*1_*1_false_1_R_true_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2&pvs=ps&trk=pp_profile_name_link
1423 2011-07-16 13:39:53 <senseles> looks like 14ghash/s on his board
1424 2011-07-16 13:40:03 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1425 2011-07-16 13:40:03 <senseles> using the stats from an AMD 64 x2 6000
1426 2011-07-16 13:40:07 <b4epoche> wow, that's a ugly URL
1427 2011-07-16 13:40:14 <senseles> which should be comperable to a fx-60
1428 2011-07-16 13:40:16 Astriks has joined
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1430 2011-07-16 13:40:32 <senseles> 14ghash/s sounds nice :/
1431 2011-07-16 13:40:36 <senseles> in that tiny little package
1432 2011-07-16 13:42:19 Titeuf_87 has joined
1433 2011-07-16 13:42:41 <b4epoche> that fellow is awesome: http://fireuser.com/blog/amd_opencl_parallel_computing_demo_from_siggraph_asia_2008/
1434 2011-07-16 13:43:07 <senseles> is that the NSA guy?
1435 2011-07-16 13:43:19 <b4epoche> yep
1436 2011-07-16 13:43:30 erle- has joined
1437 2011-07-16 13:43:42 <senseles> 58mhash/s per watt
1438 2011-07-16 13:43:46 <senseles> heh
1439 2011-07-16 13:44:01 Sedra has joined
1440 2011-07-16 13:44:24 <senseles> machine i just bought last wensday with 4 5830 is 1.5mhash/watt :/
1441 2011-07-16 13:46:28 <senseles> wow his machine would be pretty cheap to duplicate
1442 2011-07-16 13:46:34 <senseles> those 16x processors he has are only 60$ a pop
1443 2011-07-16 13:46:42 <senseles> er 15x
1444 2011-07-16 13:47:01 <senseles> the other XC2S50 is 100$ for 20 of em on ebay
1445 2011-07-16 13:47:58 <senseles> maybe 1500-2000$ for 5000+mhash/s
1446 2011-07-16 13:48:06 <[Tycho]> You should also consider the amount of work to make FPGA-PC interface.
1447 2011-07-16 13:48:23 <senseles> drivers and what not?
1448 2011-07-16 13:48:33 <senseles> I guess i would need a custom miner too
1449 2011-07-16 13:48:59 <[Tycho]> It's relatively easy with development kit, but with bare chips it may me more difficult.
1450 2011-07-16 13:49:20 <senseles> is my math at least right in regards to mhash/s to cost?
1451 2011-07-16 13:49:21 <[Tycho]> *be
1452 2011-07-16 13:49:35 <senseles> ill buy 10
1453 2011-07-16 13:49:37 <senseles> heh
1454 2011-07-16 13:49:57 <[Tycho]> Are those chips in good condition ? Price looks a bit too low.
1455 2011-07-16 13:50:09 <senseles> they look unused
1456 2011-07-16 13:50:09 <senseles> http://cgi.ebay.com/QTY-24-XILINX-XC2S50-5FG256I-/260252339363?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3c983f8ca3
1457 2011-07-16 13:50:11 <Zagitta> wow that opencl demo is amazing
1458 2011-07-16 13:50:19 <senseles> http://cgi.ebay.com/XC2VP20-5FF896C-XILINX-03-DATE-NEW-800-PIECES-/250856023001?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a682f23d9
1459 2011-07-16 13:52:02 Zr40 has joined
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1461 2011-07-16 13:56:50 <Joric> Zagitta, what demo?
1462 2011-07-16 13:57:36 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1463 2011-07-16 13:58:08 <Zagitta> Joric: the one b4epoche posted
1464 2011-07-16 13:59:19 <Joric> found it
1465 2011-07-16 14:00:08 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1466 2011-07-16 14:00:44 Bachfischer has joined
1467 2011-07-16 14:01:04 <Joric> could anyone check if webgl miner works http://bitcoin.biniok.net/gl.html
1468 2011-07-16 14:01:24 <Joric> webgl/1 thread/realmode
1469 2011-07-16 14:06:42 <b4epoche> Zagitta: http://powdertoy.co.uk/
1470 2011-07-16 14:08:23 <cjdelisle> hmm neat
1471 2011-07-16 14:08:33 <Joric> i've played with powdertoy about 3 years ago even without opencl it works just fine
1472 2011-07-16 14:08:37 <b4epoche> although it's not clear that's opencl... however, that is supposed to be the evolution of the one in that demo
1473 2011-07-16 14:08:38 <cjdelisle> around 7.xMh/s is what I get
1474 2011-07-16 14:08:42 <Zagitta> b4epoche: sweet
1475 2011-07-16 14:08:48 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1476 2011-07-16 14:08:59 <Joric> cjdelisle, webgl miner, sure?
1477 2011-07-16 14:09:30 <cjdelisle> it reads 7xxx.xxxxx in the Hash/sec entry
1478 2011-07-16 14:09:38 <cjdelisle> with it set to webgl
1479 2011-07-16 14:09:42 <b4epoche> yea, I've played with this falling sand things for a long time...
1480 2011-07-16 14:10:03 <b4epoche> but I hadn't seen an opencl one
1481 2011-07-16 14:11:28 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
1482 2011-07-16 14:12:28 <Zagitta> b4epoche: the resolution makes me sad panda :( 640x480 on a 1080p monitor is kinda hard to see xD
1483 2011-07-16 14:12:33 <senseles> who wants to make an FPGA ? :/ http://cgi.ebay.com/XILINX-XCV1000-4BG560C-FPGA-Virtex-LOT-60-PIECES-/170507774436?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b30e29e4
1484 2011-07-16 14:12:45 <senseles> 1million logic gates
1485 2011-07-16 14:12:50 <senseles> 120$ per chip
1486 2011-07-16 14:12:50 <senseles> :/
1487 2011-07-16 14:13:33 dvide has joined
1488 2011-07-16 14:14:06 <senseles> 200 pipelines @ 1 hash per clock @ 250mhz :/
1489 2011-07-16 14:14:52 <cjdelisle> Joric: very interesting, unfortunately pretty slow. I can get it into the 10's of kilohashes by not doing anything else.
1490 2011-07-16 14:15:22 <b4epoche> Zagitta: you can double the size
1491 2011-07-16 14:15:39 <Zagitta> b4epoche: yeah i found the options
1492 2011-07-16 14:16:11 <Joric> spend last night trying to make standalone glsl miner work :) terribly, terribly slow, there's like only a few hundreds multiplications per pixel and it's dead slow already :)
1493 2011-07-16 14:16:17 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1494 2011-07-16 14:17:35 <Joric> it's all emulated by floats so we're having an extra level of abstraction
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1497 2011-07-16 14:19:27 nus has joined
1498 2011-07-16 14:20:23 <Zagitta> isn't making the SHA256 part relatively easy to make in HLSL?
1499 2011-07-16 14:20:29 freewil has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1500 2011-07-16 14:20:31 Bachfischer has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1501 2011-07-16 14:22:00 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1502 2011-07-16 14:22:52 <Joric> HLSL is the High Level Shading Language for DirectX it won't work on linux
1503 2011-07-16 14:23:40 <cjdelisle> I just glanced at the code, the sha256 stuff is being done with shaders?
1504 2011-07-16 14:23:50 <Joric> yep
1505 2011-07-16 14:24:08 <Joric> every pixel starts it's own thread
1506 2011-07-16 14:24:09 <b4epoche> what code you looking at?
1507 2011-07-16 14:24:24 <cjdelisle> http://code.google.com/p/hamiyoca/
1508 2011-07-16 14:25:45 <Joric> there's even no need to return a hash, just a boolean value if we found it or not
1509 2011-07-16 14:27:57 <cjdelisle> hmm
1510 2011-07-16 14:28:17 <cjdelisle> I see a lot of js in there, it can't possibly be running on the video card
1511 2011-07-16 14:28:20 <Joric> btw there's a bunch of real webgl demos http://www.iquilezles.org/apps/shadertoy/ i wrote a python script to run them locally
1512 2011-07-16 14:29:06 <b4epoche> Inigo Quilez is awesome
1513 2011-07-16 14:29:33 <Joric> there's like almost zero load comparing to sha256
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1515 2011-07-16 14:30:35 <cjdelisle> return xor (xor (and (a, b), and (a, c)), and (b, c));
1516 2011-07-16 14:30:44 <cjdelisle> ^that all happens on the video card?
1517 2011-07-16 14:30:55 <cjdelisle> It's js right there so I am not seeing the connection
1518 2011-07-16 14:31:42 <cjdelisle> looking at http://code.google.com/p/hamiyoca/source/browse/trunk/shader-fs.js
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1520 2011-07-16 14:32:12 <b4epoche> that's not js
1521 2011-07-16 14:32:22 <mtrlt> yeah
1522 2011-07-16 14:32:28 <mtrlt> pretty obviously :p
1523 2011-07-16 14:32:51 <Joric> shadertoy player on python http://pastebin.com/ZqnCerq1 :)
1524 2011-07-16 14:32:54 <b4epoche> http://code.google.com/p/hamiyoca/source/browse/trunk/glminer.js#28
1525 2011-07-16 14:33:06 wardearia has joined
1526 2011-07-16 14:33:12 <b4epoche> in particular: http://code.google.com/p/hamiyoca/source/browse/trunk/glminer.js#59
1527 2011-07-16 14:33:24 <cjdelisle> oh right derp
1528 2011-07-16 14:33:26 <phantomcircuit> does that actually work o.O
1529 2011-07-16 14:33:42 <b4epoche> no reason it shouldn't work...
1530 2011-07-16 14:33:56 <phantomcircuit> there are reasons it *shouldn't* work
1531 2011-07-16 14:34:01 <phantomcircuit> but that's not what i asked ;)
1532 2011-07-16 14:34:03 <Joric> there was a 159 BTC bounty or something like that
1533 2011-07-16 14:34:08 <cjdelisle> #ifdef GL_ES <-- that shoulda tipped me off that it wasn't really js
1534 2011-07-16 14:34:36 <b4epoche> phantomcircuit: what reasons?
1535 2011-07-16 14:34:54 <phantomcircuit> webgl is in general a terrible idea
1536 2011-07-16 14:35:12 <phantomcircuit> gpu drivers are such shit that i guarantee you it will lead to kernel exploits
1537 2011-07-16 14:35:28 <Joric> i'll make poclbm version of that if i'll get it working on my laptop
1538 2011-07-16 14:36:33 <b4epoche> eww... the metatunnel one is awesome
1539 2011-07-16 14:36:35 <Joric> looks like intel gma hates shaders :) shadertoy works fine but sha256 code is just too heavy
1540 2011-07-16 14:36:41 <b4epoche> http://www.iquilezles.org/apps/shadertoy/
1541 2011-07-16 14:37:32 <b4epoche> phantomcircuit: I forgot you were the anti-webgl crusader
1542 2011-07-16 14:38:03 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, webgl would be a neat thing
1543 2011-07-16 14:38:04 <Joric> b4epoche, try to run it locally with this http://pastebin.com/ZqnCerq1 it'll work faster :)
1544 2011-07-16 14:38:10 <phantomcircuit> IF the drivers weren't such shit
1545 2011-07-16 14:38:26 <b4epoche> maybe drivers will be improved, eh?
1546 2011-07-16 14:38:32 <phantomcircuit> there's a reason you have to be in a special group to have accelerated rendering on gentoo
1547 2011-07-16 14:38:40 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, ahaha
1548 2011-07-16 14:38:42 <phantomcircuit> no they wont
1549 2011-07-16 14:38:57 <phantomcircuit> the bleeding edge gpu drivers will always be shit
1550 2011-07-16 14:39:00 <riush> hm, could someone give me a hint how to get the bitcoin address for the txout of a generated tx? txout.scriptPubKey.GetBitcoinAddress() just returns ""...
1551 2011-07-16 14:39:21 <b4epoche> well, why do you have to be bleeding on the edge?
1552 2011-07-16 14:39:44 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, because the latest and fastest gpus only work with bleeding edge drivers of course
1553 2011-07-16 14:39:45 gruez has joined
1554 2011-07-16 14:39:50 <cjdelisle> Joric: why did you have to emulate integer math with floats? I see int is a keyword, does it not allow | & and >>?
1555 2011-07-16 14:40:21 <b4epoche> well, then if you want to be on the edge, let it bleed...
1556 2011-07-16 14:41:21 <phantomcircuit> uh yeah good luck with that one
1557 2011-07-16 14:41:36 <mtrlt> and i'd assume emulating bitwise operations would be faster with ints than floats
1558 2011-07-16 14:42:06 <Joric> GLSL (version 1.2 and earlier) has no support for 32-bit integers nor bitwise operators
1559 2011-07-16 14:42:36 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Changing host)
1560 2011-07-16 14:42:36 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
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1562 2011-07-16 14:42:59 <mtrlt> hmm, but are there 16-bit integers?
1563 2011-07-16 14:43:11 <gruez> Long long?
1564 2011-07-16 14:43:13 <mtrlt> is using floats faster than using those? sounds weird
1565 2011-07-16 14:44:19 <Joric> i don't know really maybe it's really faster to use integers instead i didn't check, it's all based on the same piece of code
1566 2011-07-16 14:48:25 <cjdelisle> I can't find anythign about it, it's based on OpenGL shader language 2.1?
1567 2011-07-16 14:49:22 <Joric> 1.2, 1.3 tops (the latter needs partial opengl 3 support)
1568 2011-07-16 14:49:52 <Joric> here is the topic and sample code http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4618.20
1569 2011-07-16 14:50:14 Dagger2 has quit (Quit: Quitting)
1570 2011-07-16 14:50:34 <Joric> xaci claims he's writting a version for 32-bit integers
1571 2011-07-16 14:50:44 Dagger3 has joined
1572 2011-07-16 14:51:10 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1573 2011-07-16 14:51:31 erus` has joined
1574 2011-07-16 14:55:53 <cjdelisle> it claims to support #pragma
1575 2011-07-16 14:56:03 <cjdelisle> so you ought to be able to unroll that loop
1576 2011-07-16 14:56:52 md2k7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1577 2011-07-16 14:58:02 <cjdelisle> a four component integer vector
1578 2011-07-16 14:58:02 <cjdelisle> ivec4
1579 2011-07-16 14:59:27 <Joric> looks like my drivers do not support them
1580 2011-07-16 15:00:48 <cjdelisle> hmm I'm reading from the gles2.0 spec. It also says >> and << are illegal which you proved not to be the case.
1581 2011-07-16 15:01:04 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂCVTTENBERCÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
1582 2011-07-16 15:02:01 <cjdelisle> oh nvm
1583 2011-07-16 15:02:08 <cjdelisle> I thought there were shifts in that code
1584 2011-07-16 15:02:19 <Joric> no there's none
1585 2011-07-16 15:02:44 <Joric> just multiplication and power of two
1586 2011-07-16 15:03:12 <cjdelisle> hmm good luck
1587 2011-07-16 15:04:01 samr7 has joined
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1589 2011-07-16 15:06:15 <Zagitta> What rules does the current bitcoin client follow in regards to including transactions in the merkletree?
1590 2011-07-16 15:06:44 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1591 2011-07-16 15:08:38 WakiMiko has joined
1592 2011-07-16 15:10:24 unclemantis has joined
1593 2011-07-16 15:10:52 <Joric> hm this shit works even on intel gma ivec4 t = ivec4(1,1,1,1); float c = float(t[0]*200) / 256.0; gl_FragColor = vec4(c,c,c,c);
1594 2011-07-16 15:11:09 vigilyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1596 2011-07-16 15:13:24 <unclemantis> i am looking at Casascius's paper wallet and I see a Private key and a hex code. When I try and convert the private key (which i think is base58) to hex (base16) I get an error saying that the key is not a valid base58 string. I then do the reverse and try and change the hex to base58 and I get something that completely does not resemble the private key at all. What am i doing wrong?
1597 2011-07-16 15:14:09 prax has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1598 2011-07-16 15:14:55 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
1599 2011-07-16 15:15:10 <Joric> unclemantis, every base58 string is actually an 'address type'
1600 2011-07-16 15:15:31 erus` has joined
1601 2011-07-16 15:15:41 <Joric> it's base58(version number + key + checksum)
1602 2011-07-16 15:15:58 ElectRo`_ is now known as ElectRo`
1603 2011-07-16 15:16:47 slux has joined
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1605 2011-07-16 15:17:34 <Joric> checksum is last 4 bytes of sha256(sha256(key)), version number either 0 (regular address) or 111(testnet) 128 (private key) 111+128 (testnet private key)
1606 2011-07-16 15:19:00 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1607 2011-07-16 15:19:00 <gribble> 136582
1608 2011-07-16 15:19:10 <Joric> version allows to guess the key type, checksum prevents typos
1609 2011-07-16 15:19:32 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1610 2011-07-16 15:20:04 wolfspraul has joined
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1613 2011-07-16 15:25:36 <unclemantis> i see
1614 2011-07-16 15:25:50 <unclemantis> and what would be the version number? 5?
1615 2011-07-16 15:26:04 <b4epoche> he said
1616 2011-07-16 15:27:35 <Joric> scroll up
1617 2011-07-16 15:27:44 <unclemantis> i will read closer
1618 2011-07-16 15:28:54 <Joric> public key (address) is 65 bytes, private key is 279 bytes
1619 2011-07-16 15:29:05 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1620 2011-07-16 15:29:41 <Joric> see https://github.com/joric/pywallet
1621 2011-07-16 15:29:48 koleg has joined
1622 2011-07-16 15:30:48 <unclemantis> i have pywallet
1623 2011-07-16 15:30:53 <unclemantis> i will look closer
1624 2011-07-16 15:31:25 <Eliel_> would a checksum calculated with ECC coding be preferable? With a checksum of 4 bytes, you could automatically correct for up to 2 typoes and detect (with 100% reliability) up to 4 of them.
1625 2011-07-16 15:32:28 <Joric> well, it's already established
1626 2011-07-16 15:33:22 <Eliel_> yes, can't transition immediately. but if the support was added, you could do that, eventually.
1627 2011-07-16 15:33:29 <mtrlt> yep
1628 2011-07-16 15:33:40 <mtrlt> i would like a better checksum
1629 2011-07-16 15:34:08 <Eliel_> automatic typo correction would be quite sweet feature :)
1630 2011-07-16 15:34:15 <mtrlt> :P
1631 2011-07-16 15:34:18 <mtrlt> what if you typo the checksum?
1632 2011-07-16 15:34:45 erle- has joined
1633 2011-07-16 15:34:50 <mtrlt> infinite recursive checksums? :P
1634 2011-07-16 15:35:05 <Eliel_> as far as I'm aware, if you use reed-solomon codes, it can handle 2 typoes total (summed from both the data an the checksum)
1635 2011-07-16 15:35:05 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1636 2011-07-16 15:35:12 <mtrlt> hmm
1637 2011-07-16 15:35:22 <mtrlt> that sounds good
1638 2011-07-16 15:36:42 <Eliel_> I'm not sure how reliable it is if the number of typoes is over 4. It will catch at least some of them.
1639 2011-07-16 15:37:53 <mtrlt> but in that case you should learn to type :-P
1640 2011-07-16 15:39:33 <Eliel_> my intuition would tell me it's somewhat less reliable than the current checksum with heavy errors :)
1641 2011-07-16 15:39:41 <Eliel_> but this is not based on knowledge
1642 2011-07-16 15:39:48 <sacarlson> eliel_ so where is the algo for this ECC?
1643 2011-07-16 15:39:56 <Eliel_> google reed solomon
1644 2011-07-16 15:40:12 <Eliel_> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Reed%E2%80%93Solomon_error_correction
1645 2011-07-16 15:40:17 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-106-201-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
1646 2011-07-16 15:40:35 <sacarlson> Eliel_: most just cut and paist and might miss the last leters
1647 2011-07-16 15:41:09 <sacarlson> Eliel_: so in that case you would be missing the checksum part or in your case the EEC data needed to fix it
1648 2011-07-16 15:41:25 <Eliel_> reed-solomon should be able to handle that just fine as long as the data is correct
1649 2011-07-16 15:42:11 <Eliel_> and only 2 characters are missing.
1650 2011-07-16 15:42:29 anfersix has joined
1651 2011-07-16 15:42:32 <Eliel_> how many characters does the 4-byte checksum become in the actual address?
1652 2011-07-16 15:42:37 <Eliel_> after base58...
1653 2011-07-16 15:42:59 <Eliel_> 5 or 6 but... which
1654 2011-07-16 15:44:23 <Eliel_> also, the checksum would need to be calculated from the base58 output, not from the binary key
1655 2011-07-16 15:44:28 <Eliel_> with reed-solomon
1656 2011-07-16 15:45:06 <Eliel_> otherwise the error correction would be reduced to perhaps being able to correct for one typo. With luck 2
1657 2011-07-16 15:45:18 <lfm> Eliel_: you taket as a 25 byte long integer and convert to base 58. it is not encoded spearatly
1658 2011-07-16 15:45:44 manifold has joined
1659 2011-07-16 15:45:50 <Eliel_> lfm: yes, but are all bitcoin addresses of equal length then?
1660 2011-07-16 15:45:59 <lfm> no
1661 2011-07-16 15:46:20 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1662 2011-07-16 15:46:31 <lfm> leading zeros make different sizes and base58 does not convert bit aligned at all
1663 2011-07-16 15:47:03 <lfm> most are 34 chars long tho, some are less
1664 2011-07-16 15:48:06 <lfm> I think the shortest is 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 which is the encoding of a zero key
1665 2011-07-16 15:48:48 <Eliel_> for using reed-solomon as the checksum, you'd have to drop the sha256 based checksum, encode to base58 and then use a base-58 version of r-s coding to make 6 extra bytes to tag a the end.
1666 2011-07-16 15:48:53 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1667 2011-07-16 15:49:04 mmoya has joined
1668 2011-07-16 15:49:09 <lfm> Eliel_: it doesnt use reed-solomon
1669 2011-07-16 15:49:13 <Eliel_> I know
1670 2011-07-16 15:49:21 <Eliel_> I'm suggesting to add that as a possibility
1671 2011-07-16 15:49:26 <lfm> no
1672 2011-07-16 15:49:33 <lfm> too late to change that
1673 2011-07-16 15:50:02 <Eliel_> it's too late to change right now but you could add support for r-s addresses and just wait until most clients support them before allowing usage.
1674 2011-07-16 15:50:25 <lfm> you make your own currency system and do it your way. bitcoin is this way
1675 2011-07-16 15:50:28 <Eliel_> it would be quite significant usability improvement
1676 2011-07-16 15:50:43 <Eliel_> people will be typing those addresses by hand at times
1677 2011-07-16 15:50:43 <Joric> qr codes have a nice data protecton already, up to 30% :)
1678 2011-07-16 15:50:59 <lfm> no, use cut-paste, dont type them
1679 2011-07-16 15:51:20 pusle has joined
1680 2011-07-16 15:51:23 <Eliel_> lfm: I will use cut&paste whenever possible, certainly. But I can guarantee you some people won't.
1681 2011-07-16 15:51:37 <Zagitta> Are there any suggested rules about wich txn to accept?
1682 2011-07-16 15:51:39 <lfm> fine, thats why there is the checksum
1683 2011-07-16 15:51:41 <Eliel_> also, this would be perfectly in line with Satoshi's sentiment for choosing base-58 instead of base -64
1684 2011-07-16 15:51:56 slux has joined
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1686 2011-07-16 15:52:20 <lfm> Eliel_: ya sure, like I said, you do your own currency how you want.
1687 2011-07-16 15:52:55 <lfm> there are things I dont like about bitcoin too.
1688 2011-07-16 15:52:58 <Eliel_> so, you're saying this is not even worth considering?
1689 2011-07-16 15:53:02 <lfm> right
1690 2011-07-16 15:53:11 <Joric> those addresses are probably designed by satoshi too
1691 2011-07-16 15:53:18 <lfm> it is worth considering for YOUR currency. not for bitcoin
1692 2011-07-16 15:53:38 <lfm> Joric: yes they were
1693 2011-07-16 15:53:43 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1696 2011-07-16 15:54:39 <Eliel_> lfm: actually, I just realized this can be implemented without needing to touch bitcoin protocol.
1697 2011-07-16 15:55:01 <mtrlt> well yeah because the base-58 representation is not used anywhere else but the gui, afaik
1698 2011-07-16 15:55:03 <lfm> ok you do that, now is there any questions I can answer?
1699 2011-07-16 15:55:38 <mtrlt> lfm: no need for another currency. at most another client for bitcoin.
1700 2011-07-16 15:55:48 <Eliel_> is the checksum part of the key included in the blocks?
1701 2011-07-16 15:55:58 <lfm> mtrlt: those addresses are used by many programs and many websites. it is far too late to try to change them
1702 2011-07-16 15:56:05 <Joric> glsl is weird, has signed int in -65536 +65536 :) not more nor less
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1705 2011-07-16 15:56:58 <Eliel_> lfm: the addresses are versioned. Simple enough to support 2 formats, no?
1706 2011-07-16 15:56:58 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1707 2011-07-16 15:57:25 <Eliel_> Joric: that's nice to hear about QR-codes by the way :)
1708 2011-07-16 15:57:37 <lfm> Might be possible with a huge effort, I dont see any gain.
1709 2011-07-16 15:58:18 <Joric> Eliel_, ur welcome http://code.google.com/apis/chart/image/docs/gallery/qr_codes.html
1710 2011-07-16 15:58:31 <Joric> H - Allows recovery of up to 30% data loss
1711 2011-07-16 15:59:16 <mtrlt> lfm: i don't suggest change but another system besides the current one.
1712 2011-07-16 15:59:25 <lfm> bad addresses are not a problem at present. no one types them.
1713 2011-07-16 15:59:42 <Joric> https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=150x150&cht=qr&chl=1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96&chld=H :) H type
1714 2011-07-16 15:59:55 <lfm> well actually you are suggesting change.
1715 2011-07-16 16:00:25 <sacarlson> Eliel_: you could have 100 formats no mater as long as the other side agree's
1716 2011-07-16 16:01:01 <lfm> and you can have 1 person using each.
1717 2011-07-16 16:01:04 <Eliel_> Joric: do you know what algorithm the ECC code in QR code uses?
1718 2011-07-16 16:01:30 <sacarlson> lfm: I think better to use his ecc on a new chain that had different format for address
1719 2011-07-16 16:01:34 <Joric> who cares
1720 2011-07-16 16:01:47 <Joric> btw the last bitcoin show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ2aCikKqww is all about qr codes
1721 2011-07-16 16:01:53 <Eliel_> sacarlson: it does not need any changes to the protocol, really.
1722 2011-07-16 16:02:00 <mtrlt> lfm: it doesn't matter what the representation of the address is as long as you can get the pubkey hash and the version out of it.
1723 2011-07-16 16:02:28 <lfm> sacarlson: thats what I said, he can do what he wants with his own currency. bitcoin has base58 already and its not worth it to make a new one
1724 2011-07-16 16:02:36 <mtrlt> but anyway i'd like a system to make remembering private keys easy. like constructing a sentence from the privkey. then you wouldn't have the key anywhere until you need it :P
1725 2011-07-16 16:02:57 <lfm> mtrlt: good luck with that
1726 2011-07-16 16:02:59 <mtrlt> the base58 representation is not stored in the chain, dammit
1727 2011-07-16 16:03:05 <mtrlt> >_<
1728 2011-07-16 16:03:18 <sacarlson> Eliel_: oh I guess to could work if it would except eather one but one side would send his address and the other would have to accept eather of the two or 100 formats
1729 2011-07-16 16:03:25 <lfm> I never said it was stored in the chain
1730 2011-07-16 16:03:34 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1732 2011-07-16 16:04:47 <Eliel_> sacarlson: yes, it pretty much needs to be supported by the most used bitcoin client to be of any real use.
1733 2011-07-16 16:05:15 <Eliel_> at least, as far as being able to interpret it goes. It doesn't need to be able to generate one :P
1734 2011-07-16 16:05:17 <sacarlson> Eliel_: well bitcoin isn't the only chain
1735 2011-07-16 16:05:29 infini has joined
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1737 2011-07-16 16:06:14 infini is now known as infinitev
1738 2011-07-16 16:06:48 <lfm> yes it is quirky and/or idiosyncratic but its what we have and its good enough for when we need.
1739 2011-07-16 16:06:54 <Joric> it's better do not let users using their passwords :) leaked mtgox database had 18 occurences of 'trustno1'
1740 2011-07-16 16:07:12 <lfm> Joric: hehe
1741 2011-07-16 16:09:17 <Eliel_> I'll see what's needed to make the change and create a pull request. No point creating another chain.
1742 2011-07-16 16:09:32 <b4epoche> Joric: I implemented bitcoin privkey qr dump in my osx frontend
1743 2011-07-16 16:09:42 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1744 2011-07-16 16:11:15 <b4epoche> part of the issue is that really the only c-based qrencoding lib is LGPL
1745 2011-07-16 16:11:20 <lfm> oh 11111111111111111111BZbvjr is shorter than zero address!
1746 2011-07-16 16:12:20 anfersix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1747 2011-07-16 16:12:44 sacarlson has joined
1748 2011-07-16 16:13:15 <prof7bit> do the magic bytes have any deeper (hidden) meaning or message inside them? (too lazy now to look up their ascii values)
1749 2011-07-16 16:13:20 slux has joined
1750 2011-07-16 16:13:40 <lfm> prof7bit: which magic bytes?
1751 2011-07-16 16:13:46 <prof7bit> the protocol.
1752 2011-07-16 16:13:52 <prof7bit> the 4 bytes in the header
1753 2011-07-16 16:13:56 <lfm> bitcoin or qr code?
1754 2011-07-16 16:14:08 <prof7bit> bitcoin
1755 2011-07-16 16:14:28 <lfm> oh like the first 4 bytes of blk0001.dat?
1756 2011-07-16 16:15:02 <prof7bit> not the berkeley magic bytes. the bytes in the network potocol.
1757 2011-07-16 16:15:09 <lfm> theyre not strictly in the header
1758 2011-07-16 16:15:32 Ryan has joined
1759 2011-07-16 16:15:34 <prof7bit> tehy are the forst 4 bytes of the header
1760 2011-07-16 16:15:47 <Joric> F9 BE B4 D9
1761 2011-07-16 16:15:54 edGe06 has joined
1762 2011-07-16 16:16:40 <prof7bit> any hidden meaning found (like DE AD BE EF or something obscure like that?)
1763 2011-07-16 16:16:41 <lfm> same as the magic bytes in the file then, just something arbitrary unique to bitcoin
1764 2011-07-16 16:17:02 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1765 2011-07-16 16:17:35 <lfm> maybe they mean something in unicode japanese or something but I have never heard so.
1766 2011-07-16 16:18:16 <copumpkin> does anyone actually think satoshi is japanese?
1767 2011-07-16 16:18:21 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1768 2011-07-16 16:18:43 <copumpkin> I thought the general consensus was that it was just a pseudonym
1769 2011-07-16 16:18:44 <prof7bit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexspeak#Notable_magic_numbers
1770 2011-07-16 16:18:59 <lfm> copumpkin: why not? as good a guess as any
1771 2011-07-16 16:19:32 <Joric> just dealed with network protocol, found an interesting piece of code https://github.com/kylegibson/python-bitcoin-client
1772 2011-07-16 16:20:13 <Joric> unfortunately it doesn't work :) tried it on testnet-in-a-box it doesn't download blocks
1773 2011-07-16 16:21:06 <lfm> the real first 4 bytes of the block headers are 00000001 version number
1774 2011-07-16 16:22:16 denisx has joined
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1776 2011-07-16 16:22:53 <mtrlt> there isn't even a japanese article on bitcoin on wikipedia :(
1777 2011-07-16 16:23:03 <mtrlt> and like 30 other languages exist
1778 2011-07-16 16:23:29 <BlueMatt> tell MagicalTux to write it
1779 2011-07-16 16:23:33 <BlueMatt> ;)
1780 2011-07-16 16:24:40 * b4epoche thinks there's no possible way satoshi is japanese
1781 2011-07-16 16:25:34 * BlueMatt agrees
1782 2011-07-16 16:26:07 <copumpkin> the usual argument for him not being japanese hinges on the good quality of his english writing, doesn't it? :P
1783 2011-07-16 16:26:15 <copumpkin> seems rather prejudiced
1784 2011-07-16 16:26:27 <BlueMatt> also hinges on his lack of posting during japanese time zones
1785 2011-07-16 16:26:37 <BlueMatt> could still be japanese, but living in us/eur
1786 2011-07-16 16:26:38 <copumpkin> he could conceivably be a japanese expat :)
1787 2011-07-16 16:26:40 <Joric> damn i've missed a new episode of futurama, one day late already :)
1788 2011-07-16 16:26:40 <mtrlt> maybe he sleeps during the day
1789 2011-07-16 16:27:05 <copumpkin> expat would also explain good English, assuming he was living in an English-speaking country
1790 2011-07-16 16:27:15 <b4epoche> well, first satoshi is certainly not his real name...
1791 2011-07-16 16:27:16 ar4s has quit (Quit: bye)
1792 2011-07-16 16:27:22 <Joric> bots keeping price still http://i54.tinypic.com/14ahpg3.jpg
1793 2011-07-16 16:27:39 <b4epoche> copumpkin: I'm not sure. My experience is that Japanese have a terrible time with English
1794 2011-07-16 16:28:06 <copumpkin> sure, but that doesn't mean there do not exist japanese people with good english :) especially those into tech and on the internet
1795 2011-07-16 16:28:13 stalled has joined
1796 2011-07-16 16:28:28 <copumpkin> I lived in italy most of my life, and most italians speak terrible english. That doesn't mean I haven't met a few of them with perfect english on IRC
1797 2011-07-16 16:28:49 <b4epoche> I'm just saying that it limits the probability
1798 2011-07-16 16:28:50 <BlueMatt> its /possible/ he is japanese, but the probability of him being japanese is lower than him being english/american/german/etc/etc/etc
1799 2011-07-16 16:28:50 <copumpkin> to the point where I wouldn't have guessed they weren't native speakers
1800 2011-07-16 16:29:34 manifold has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1801 2011-07-16 16:30:10 <mtrlt> i'd assume satoshi is well-educated and thus has a higher chance of actually writing good english :P
1802 2011-07-16 16:30:20 <copumpkin> well
1803 2011-07-16 16:30:29 <copumpkin> I went to japan and stayed with a host family for a few months
1804 2011-07-16 16:30:36 <copumpkin> and my host dad was an english teacher at a high school
1805 2011-07-16 16:30:42 <copumpkin> and _still_ didn't speak a word of english :P
1806 2011-07-16 16:30:45 <b4epoche> I'm saying the majority of the well-educated Japanese have trouble with English
1807 2011-07-16 16:30:46 <Joric> what if he both japanese and english is his native language? :)
1808 2011-07-16 16:30:47 <copumpkin> okay, maybe a word or two
1809 2011-07-16 16:30:49 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1810 2011-07-16 16:30:52 <mtrlt> lol
1811 2011-07-16 16:31:00 <copumpkin> Joric: surely not! people can't be bilingual
1812 2011-07-16 16:31:25 <BlueMatt> mtrlt: no, satoshi was probably not well-educated, hes a anti-establishment cryptoanarchist, those people are typically not educated in the best unis...
1813 2011-07-16 16:31:27 <Joric> but they can have japanese names
1814 2011-07-16 16:31:28 <copumpkin> everyone knows that is impossible
1815 2011-07-16 16:31:32 <BlueMatt> they are smart
1816 2011-07-16 16:31:36 <BlueMatt> not well-educated
1817 2011-07-16 16:31:39 <BlueMatt> big difference
1818 2011-07-16 16:31:41 <mtrlt> BlueMatt: hmm yea
1819 2011-07-16 16:31:43 <mtrlt> good point
1820 2011-07-16 16:32:27 <Joric> i have a cs degree, don't know a fuck
1821 2011-07-16 16:32:30 <copumpkin> lol
1822 2011-07-16 16:32:34 <b4epoche> what is "event_dispatch();" in pushpool's server.c main_loop function?
1823 2011-07-16 16:32:36 <cut> BlueMatt: the unibomber was a professor at a major college, who cares if the person is anti establishment
1824 2011-07-16 16:32:37 * copumpkin does know a fuck
1825 2011-07-16 16:32:50 <copumpkin> we have a college professor in here!
1826 2011-07-16 16:33:02 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1827 2011-07-16 16:33:08 <BlueMatt> cut: no one is speaking about what he is or cant be, but what he is likely to be
1828 2011-07-16 16:33:14 <b4epoche> fuckin' hell
1829 2011-07-16 16:33:21 <BlueMatt> cut: yes, its entirely possible hes some super-professor
1830 2011-07-16 16:33:26 <BlueMatt> its just not the most likely
1831 2011-07-16 16:33:32 <copumpkin> I bet satoshi is barack obama
1832 2011-07-16 16:33:36 <copumpkin> it all fits
1833 2011-07-16 16:33:38 <BlueMatt> lol
1834 2011-07-16 16:33:47 slux has joined
1835 2011-07-16 16:33:51 <b4epoche> didn't he disappear about the time bin Laden was killed?
1836 2011-07-16 16:33:57 karnac has joined
1837 2011-07-16 16:34:02 <copumpkin> o shit
1838 2011-07-16 16:34:04 <copumpkin> good point
1839 2011-07-16 16:34:07 <cut> BlueMatt: your assumption is wrong and ignorant
1840 2011-07-16 16:34:33 <b4epoche> professors are not necessarily 'well educated'
1841 2011-07-16 16:34:38 <BlueMatt> cut: most people educated in the best unis/private hses/etc arent anti-establishment
1842 2011-07-16 16:34:46 <MrSam> hello.world
1843 2011-07-16 16:34:47 * b4epoche knows for certain
1844 2011-07-16 16:34:49 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: not sure where you get that from :)
1845 2011-07-16 16:34:51 <prof7bit> professors can be anti-establishment
1846 2011-07-16 16:35:03 <BlueMatt> many professors are
1847 2011-07-16 16:35:09 <BlueMatt> but the average person coming out of college isnt
1848 2011-07-16 16:35:16 <BlueMatt> well, some professors are
1849 2011-07-16 16:35:18 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1850 2011-07-16 16:35:19 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: most people aren't at the best unis
1851 2011-07-16 16:35:19 <copumpkin> but I see no reason to think that people there are less likely to be anti-establishment than anywhere else
1852 2011-07-16 16:35:22 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I would say most professors are quite liberal in their views
1853 2011-07-16 16:35:44 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: absolutely, but not to the point of being anarchist
1854 2011-07-16 16:36:00 <b4epoche> probably a higher percent than in the general population
1855 2011-07-16 16:36:05 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: you need to show that people at the best universities are _less likely_ than the general population
1856 2011-07-16 16:36:13 <copumpkin> to be anti-establishment
1857 2011-07-16 16:36:16 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: you have to admit anarchists tend to come from people in lower socioeconomic classes
1858 2011-07-16 16:36:16 <copumpkin> which seems like a tough claim
1859 2011-07-16 16:36:28 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: which is my point
1860 2011-07-16 16:36:41 <BlueMatt> ok, anti-establishment is the wrong word here, anarchist would be better
1861 2011-07-16 16:36:45 <b4epoche> and it kinda depends on what you mean by anti-establishment
1862 2011-07-16 16:36:52 <copumpkin> antichrist
1863 2011-07-16 16:36:57 <copumpkin> lots of those at my college
1864 2011-07-16 16:36:57 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1865 2011-07-16 16:37:01 <BlueMatt> and look at his views on the bank bailout
1866 2011-07-16 16:37:03 <b4epoche> I mean, everyone bitches about the establishment
1867 2011-07-16 16:37:13 osmosis has joined
1868 2011-07-16 16:37:15 <copumpkin> oh, I'm a big fan of it
1869 2011-07-16 16:37:16 <Joric> he's just a robot from the future - he obviously can reverse any hash easily, how else could he debug that damn thing
1870 2011-07-16 16:37:30 copumpkin is now known as EstablishmentLov
1871 2011-07-16 16:37:38 EstablishmentLov is now known as copumpkin
1872 2011-07-16 16:37:41 <BlueMatt> very, very few people disagree with the bank bailouts who have been through a very good uni or studied econ
1873 2011-07-16 16:37:42 * b4epoche doesn't really view bitcoin as anti-establishment
1874 2011-07-16 16:37:55 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: neither do I, but satoshi was
1875 2011-07-16 16:37:59 <BlueMatt> bitcoin != satoshi
1876 2011-07-16 16:38:22 <b4epoche> I suspect he was just bitter and cynical
1877 2011-07-16 16:38:28 <erus`> satoshi -> bitcoin
1878 2011-07-16 16:38:31 <b4epoche> i.e. a professor of some time
1879 2011-07-16 16:38:32 <b4epoche> type
1880 2011-07-16 16:38:36 <BlueMatt> erus`: invented != ==
1881 2011-07-16 16:39:04 <erus`> satoshi is a function that returns bitcoin
1882 2011-07-16 16:39:08 <denisx> how does the new poclbm know that I found a block? is that part of the answer from pushpoold?
1883 2011-07-16 16:39:10 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I would disagree strongly with "very, very few people disagree with the bank bailouts who have been through a very good uni or studied econ"
1884 2011-07-16 16:39:15 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: Im not so sure, seems like not many professors, though they may express complaints about, disagree with the bank bailouts
1885 2011-07-16 16:39:25 <Joric> i though he wrote most of all that awful boost/wx code, it's clearly stated in every file
1886 2011-07-16 16:39:49 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I hang out with professors all day
1887 2011-07-16 16:40:06 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: difference between "think they might have been done poorly" or "express concern over" but no sane person can honestly say "we shouldnt have done anything"
1888 2011-07-16 16:40:07 <copumpkin> lots of crazy professors out there
1889 2011-07-16 16:40:21 <devrandom> BlueMatt: added you as collaborator to wxWidgets-release
1890 2011-07-16 16:40:46 <BlueMatt> I suppose satoshi could be a crazy professor...
1891 2011-07-16 16:40:55 <BlueMatt> devrandom: thanks, Ill build it in a day or two
1892 2011-07-16 16:41:11 p0s has joined
1893 2011-07-16 16:41:38 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I'll forge forward with mingw then
1894 2011-07-16 16:41:43 <freewil> BlueMatt: I think you should this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/07/priceless-how-the-federal_n_278805.html
1895 2011-07-16 16:41:55 <b4epoche> and this nut is in my department ;-)
1896 2011-07-16 16:41:56 <b4epoche> http://www.creationresearch.org/creation_matters/98/cm9807.html#A%20Closet%20Christian%20Steps%20Out
1897 2011-07-16 16:41:59 <copumpkin> I've noticed the bitcoin channels don't really follow this guideline: http://snapplr.com/vzvc
1898 2011-07-16 16:42:01 <copumpkin> anyone know why?
1899 2011-07-16 16:42:26 <BlueMatt> devrandom: sounds cool, I never bothered to check if bitcoin mingw is deterministic or not...
1900 2011-07-16 16:42:33 <BlueMatt> devrandom: Id assume the boost part isnt
1901 2011-07-16 16:42:44 <Zagitta> denisx: it probably just runs the same checks as pushpool...
1902 2011-07-16 16:43:14 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: because I, and others, are too lazy?
1903 2011-07-16 16:43:24 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: to change a chanserv flag once?
1904 2011-07-16 16:43:31 <BlueMatt> meh
1905 2011-07-16 16:43:36 <copumpkin> :)
1906 2011-07-16 16:43:36 <b4epoche> satoshi obviously had free time to devote to bitcoin... and I would love to believe it was 'tenure' that gave him that freedom
1907 2011-07-16 16:43:42 <denisx> Zagitta: but for that it would need the real target and pushpoold sends only the diff-1 target
1908 2011-07-16 16:43:42 <devrandom> BlueMatt: we shall see
1909 2011-07-16 16:43:44 <BlueMatt> freewil: wow, that is bs...
1910 2011-07-16 16:44:14 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well we will never know...
1911 2011-07-16 16:44:20 <Joric> it would be great to have a small plain c core, torvalds style :) but i didn't see any
1912 2011-07-16 16:44:26 <freewil> BlueMatt: what is?
1913 2011-07-16 16:44:30 <BlueMatt> that article
1914 2011-07-16 16:44:41 <freewil> BlueMatt: why?
1915 2011-07-16 16:44:44 <Zagitta> denisx: ever considered that the current target might either be hardcoded or retrieved from blockexplorer?
1916 2011-07-16 16:44:47 <BlueMatt> though it has nothing to do with bailout discussions
1917 2011-07-16 16:45:05 <BlueMatt> fed didnt buy economics profession, the banks did
1918 2011-07-16 16:45:23 <denisx> Zagitta: no, its not hardcoded, maybe downloaded
1919 2011-07-16 16:45:25 <freewil> BlueMatt: yes it does, you said most economists didnt disagree with the bailouts
1920 2011-07-16 16:45:32 <freewil> BlueMatt: the banks own the federal reserve
1921 2011-07-16 16:45:40 <BlueMatt> freewil: no, I said any sane person wont disagree with the bailouts
1922 2011-07-16 16:45:47 <BlueMatt> not economics professionals
1923 2011-07-16 16:45:59 <senseles> why?
1924 2011-07-16 16:46:02 <senseles> let the economy crash
1925 2011-07-16 16:46:04 <copumpkin> anyone in this community work in finance, by the way?
1926 2011-07-16 16:46:11 <senseles> then bread will cost a trillion $ a loaf
1927 2011-07-16 16:46:13 <freewil> BlueMatt: BlueMatt: very, very few people disagree with the bank bailouts who have been through a very good uni or studied econ
1928 2011-07-16 16:46:17 <b4epoche> nanotube is a finance student
1929 2011-07-16 16:46:18 <senseles> so we send the chinese a loaf of bread
1930 2011-07-16 16:46:22 <senseles> and poof our debts are paid off
1931 2011-07-16 16:46:23 <b4epoche> graduate student
1932 2011-07-16 16:46:26 <copumpkin> freewil: no true scotsman, eh :)
1933 2011-07-16 16:46:35 <copumpkin> :P
1934 2011-07-16 16:46:37 <copumpkin> not quite
1935 2011-07-16 16:47:05 <BlueMatt> freewil: been through a uni does not imply been influenced by economics professors as it does not imply having taken econ courses
1936 2011-07-16 16:47:22 <copumpkin> yeah, I took no econ in college
1937 2011-07-16 16:47:29 <b4epoche> wtf copumpkin ?
1938 2011-07-16 16:47:33 <copumpkin> :P
1939 2011-07-16 16:47:38 <b4epoche> those are the easiest classes
1940 2011-07-16 16:47:42 <copumpkin> yeah, fuck easy
1941 2011-07-16 16:47:43 <freewil> BlueMatt: what? so are you saying you have to go to uni to understand and be sane?
1942 2011-07-16 16:47:45 <BlueMatt> freewil: additionally, let me add sane person with some semblance of sense
1943 2011-07-16 16:47:48 <copumpkin> I wanted to take stuff I was interested in :P
1944 2011-07-16 16:47:50 <copumpkin> I took a decent amount of it in high school
1945 2011-07-16 16:47:58 <BlueMatt> freewil: to that list
1946 2011-07-16 16:47:59 <copumpkin> now I'm studying finance on my own time
1947 2011-07-16 16:48:14 <b4epoche> it was the best way for engineers to get social science credits
1948 2011-07-16 16:48:18 <copumpkin> hah
1949 2011-07-16 16:48:23 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r300d8e44f950 spesmilo/settings.py: Bugfix: Always be sure to return a str/unicode from humanAmount http://tinyurl.com/6yp6s9u
1950 2011-07-16 16:48:23 * b4epoche took three econ classes
1951 2011-07-16 16:48:24 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r7e5091e46f78 spesmilo/cashier.py: Show account names in cashier http://tinyurl.com/6dbrng9
1952 2011-07-16 16:48:38 <copumpkin> b4epoche: one of my favorite courses was an actual social science course on race relations in the US
1953 2011-07-16 16:48:48 <copumpkin> another was on race relations in south america
1954 2011-07-16 16:48:48 <freewil> BlueMatt: that's just a ridiculous assertion with no basis
1955 2011-07-16 16:48:55 <b4epoche> I enjoyed art history too
1956 2011-07-16 16:48:56 <BlueMatt> freewil: quite the opposite
1957 2011-07-16 16:49:28 <BlueMatt> freewil: everyone I know personally who actually knows the specifics of the bailouts agrees that they were necessary to some extent
1958 2011-07-16 16:49:30 <b4epoche> but I'm glad I took econ...
1959 2011-07-16 16:49:59 <freewil> BlueMatt: look what they did is they bailed out the upper management's bonuses and kept the creditors afloat
1960 2011-07-16 16:50:10 <BlueMatt> freewil: and anyone who doesnt thinks the economy crashing is a good thing
1961 2011-07-16 16:50:12 <b4epoche> in fact, I wish I hadn't skipped the second half of the upper-level class I took (after having gotten 2x the mean score on the first exam in a class I was taking pass-fail)
1962 2011-07-16 16:50:16 <freewil> BlueMatt: an alternative to doing nothing would have been a proper nationalization
1963 2011-07-16 16:50:26 <b4epoche> they talk a lot about game theory and stuff.
1964 2011-07-16 16:50:33 <BlueMatt> freewil: I never said people agreed with them, Im just saying everyone with any sense agrees that something had to happen
1965 2011-07-16 16:50:42 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: what's more disturbing than the actual bailouts is that a handful of companies dying could actually collapse the economy
1966 2011-07-16 16:50:52 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1967 2011-07-16 16:51:08 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: totally agree, but that doesnt mean the bailouts werent necessary
1968 2011-07-16 16:51:20 <BlueMatt> freewil: nationalization of banks, are you kidding me?
1969 2011-07-16 16:51:34 <unclemantis> how do i generate a public key based on a private key? I want to print out business cards a unique payment address on each one of them due to if you publish the same public key then people can monitor your transactions!
1970 2011-07-16 16:51:41 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: I never said they weren't
1971 2011-07-16 16:52:18 <Eliel_> could someone point me to the function in the client's code that creates the base58 encoded adress?
1972 2011-07-16 16:52:19 <freewil> BlueMatt: I don't mean in a permanent sense, I'm talking do what they did with GM where they sold off the bad assets and created a new entity
1973 2011-07-16 16:52:24 <luke-jr> unclemantis: I don't see how your question is related to your concern.
1974 2011-07-16 16:52:36 <BlueMatt> freewil: what they did with GM was arguably just as bad
1975 2011-07-16 16:52:51 <luke-jr> unclemantis: just getnewaddress for each business card
1976 2011-07-16 16:52:56 <freewil> BlueMatt: not exactly like GM
1977 2011-07-16 16:52:57 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: see key.h Secret is the 32-byte privkey
1978 2011-07-16 16:53:07 <freewil> BlueMatt: the whole thing is bullshit
1979 2011-07-16 16:53:07 slux has joined
1980 2011-07-16 16:53:24 <devrandom> BlueMatt: where does WSPiApi.h come from?
1981 2011-07-16 16:53:27 <freewil> BlueMatt: the problem is there is no rule of law in America when it comes to corporate America
1982 2011-07-16 16:53:29 <b4epoche> they should have let someone buy GM
1983 2011-07-16 16:53:43 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ignore that, it needs more testing...
1984 2011-07-16 16:53:47 <BlueMatt> devrandom: just remove that file for now
1985 2011-07-16 16:53:58 <BlueMatt> freewil: what they did after the bailout is different from the bailout itself, keep in mind that if the banks were nationalized, they would still have to be bailed out
1986 2011-07-16 16:54:00 <b4epoche> I mean it's not like demand for vehicles is going to plummet if GM isn't selling them
1987 2011-07-16 16:54:04 <BlueMatt> freewil: lol
1988 2011-07-16 16:54:31 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea the auto bailout stuff was kinda poorly handled...
1989 2011-07-16 16:54:40 Gonzago has joined
1990 2011-07-16 16:54:40 <b4epoche> fannie mae and freddie mac
1991 2011-07-16 16:54:45 <devrandom> BlueMatt: what about the other ones? upnpc_exe? or should I not worry about the main build file and just focus on deps?
1992 2011-07-16 16:54:45 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1993 2011-07-16 16:54:46 <BlueMatt> freewil: rule of law != different application of law
1994 2011-07-16 16:55:10 gdoteof has left ()
1995 2011-07-16 16:55:11 <freewil> BlueMatt: what is that supposed to mean?
1996 2011-07-16 16:55:15 <BlueMatt> devrandom: well currently libminiupnp doesnt build on MinGW (or it didnt last I checked), so ignore that
1997 2011-07-16 16:55:25 brunner has joined
1998 2011-07-16 16:55:38 <BlueMatt> freewil: it means though laws are getting applied properly, congress is creating laws that benifit one business or another
1999 2011-07-16 16:55:42 <devrandom> ok
2000 2011-07-16 16:55:46 <unclemantis> luke-jr BlueMatt i want to generate a new public address for the same private key. Not a new private/public key pair. I want to keep this private key offline
2001 2011-07-16 16:56:08 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: impossible, one private key gives you one public key
2002 2011-07-16 16:56:08 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2003 2011-07-16 16:56:09 <BlueMatt> period
2004 2011-07-16 16:56:11 <b4epoche> yea, I need to know how to do that too unclemantis
2005 2011-07-16 16:56:17 <freewil> BlueMatt: Yeah Congress does that ALL THE TIME, but the existing laws are not being followed either
2006 2011-07-16 16:56:25 <freewil> BlueMatt: massive fraud is not being enforced
2007 2011-07-16 16:56:30 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: he said get /a/ public key from the priv
2008 2011-07-16 16:56:31 <BlueMatt> freewil: ok then
2009 2011-07-16 16:56:41 <freewil> BlueMatt: just look at the fraudclosure fiasoc
2010 2011-07-16 16:56:51 <unclemantis> BlueMatt ok. Then is there a way to do FORWARDING?
2011 2011-07-16 16:56:54 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: I already answered that, see key.h specifically the Secret stuff and GetPubKey
2012 2011-07-16 16:57:17 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: forwarding?
2013 2011-07-16 16:57:35 <unclemantis> yes. Forwarding from a public/private key to a seperate private key
2014 2011-07-16 16:58:00 <BlueMatt> cant say I know what you mean
2015 2011-07-16 16:58:09 <unclemantis> I am still on the concept that i want 10,000 unique public keys for when they are sent btc, the btc ends up in the single one
2016 2011-07-16 16:58:24 sanchaz has joined
2017 2011-07-16 16:58:41 <BlueMatt> no, you cant do that
2018 2011-07-16 16:58:49 <unclemantis> I could just send btc to the private key in quetion using the client by hand
2019 2011-07-16 16:58:54 <BlueMatt> (without being active and having a bitcoin node that forwards all yor txes to one address)
2020 2011-07-16 16:58:57 <BlueMatt> which is just as bad
2021 2011-07-16 16:59:14 <unclemantis> BlueMatt trying to set up an offline wallet, aka savings, aka never been online
2022 2011-07-16 16:59:54 <BlueMatt> why not just have your client generate thousands of addresses and store the privkeys for them all
2023 2011-07-16 17:00:03 <BlueMatt> its a tiny, tiny bit of data
2024 2011-07-16 17:00:31 <unclemantis> so i should just bite the bullet and accept the case that i will need to send btc to a Bitbill address once in a while
2025 2011-07-16 17:00:41 <BlueMatt> what?
2026 2011-07-16 17:00:55 <unclemantis> BlueMatt that would be a lot of qr codes and the balance management would be overwhelming
2027 2011-07-16 17:00:57 <BlueMatt> what is the thing you are trying to do here to begin with?
2028 2011-07-16 17:01:28 <unclemantis> are you ready?
2029 2011-07-16 17:01:42 <b4epoche> wow, it's taking forever to catch up on the block chain...
2030 2011-07-16 17:01:55 <unclemantis> b4epoche how long have you been offline?
2031 2011-07-16 17:02:09 <unclemantis> BlueMatt here is my thoughts
2032 2011-07-16 17:02:14 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yea people need to upgrade to 0.3.24
2033 2011-07-16 17:02:26 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: it is .24
2034 2011-07-16 17:02:29 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2035 2011-07-16 17:02:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136589 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 498 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 3 hours, 56 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1674025.38464700
2036 2011-07-16 17:02:37 <unclemantis> I want to give a bitcoin payment address to each customer or potential customer
2037 2011-07-16 17:02:42 <b4epoche> I started at like 110k blocks
2038 2011-07-16 17:02:44 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: what version you are running doesnt matter, its the version of the other guy
2039 2011-07-16 17:02:51 <BlueMatt> the guy you are downloading from
2040 2011-07-16 17:03:05 <BlueMatt> have you tried just grabbing the latest nightly
2041 2011-07-16 17:03:14 <b4epoche> oh, 'people' need to upgrade
2042 2011-07-16 17:03:15 <unclemantis> we all know that if you have access to a public key you can look up the transaction history
2043 2011-07-16 17:03:32 <luke-jr> unclemantis: you *can* make a master private key that generates infinite subkeys+addresses
2044 2011-07-16 17:03:34 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: so whats wrong with just pregenerating 1000+ addresses?
2045 2011-07-16 17:03:38 <luke-jr> unclemantis: but nobody has implemented it yet
2046 2011-07-16 17:03:44 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: forgot about that... what's addr? ???.me
2047 2011-07-16 17:03:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: bitcoin.bluematt.me
2048 2011-07-16 17:03:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: he wants to destroy all electronic copies
2049 2011-07-16 17:04:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: of what?
2050 2011-07-16 17:04:10 <BlueMatt> oh of the privkey
2051 2011-07-16 17:04:11 <unclemantis> BlueMatt if i generate 1000+ addresses they will be connected to 1000+ private keys as well
2052 2011-07-16 17:04:15 <BlueMatt> oh, so he wants a deterministic wallet
2053 2011-07-16 17:04:31 <BlueMatt> ah...well you could do that too, but as luke says, no one has implemented it
2054 2011-07-16 17:04:38 zeropointo has joined
2055 2011-07-16 17:05:01 <unclemantis> BlueMatt what i am trying to do is keep this wallet so to speak offline and never touched by the network until i import the private key into a wallet and spend them
2056 2011-07-16 17:05:09 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2057 2011-07-16 17:05:24 <BlueMatt> can you seriously not just put a wallet.dat on an encrypted flash drive?
2058 2011-07-16 17:05:30 <luke-jr> unclemantis: feel free to implement it
2059 2011-07-16 17:05:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's not reliable
2060 2011-07-16 17:05:42 <BlueMatt> well make 100 copies on 100 drives then
2061 2011-07-16 17:05:49 <BlueMatt> its not hard to make digital copies
2062 2011-07-16 17:05:56 <luke-jr> unclemantis: the current deterministic wallet spec also allows you to have a read-only view of what is sent
2063 2011-07-16 17:06:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: USB drives don't last, I hear
2064 2011-07-16 17:06:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh they last like 10 years
2065 2011-07-16 17:06:23 <BlueMatt> so grab a cd or tape
2066 2011-07-16 17:06:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: have they even existed 10 years?
2067 2011-07-16 17:06:29 <BlueMatt> if you need it that long
2068 2011-07-16 17:06:37 <luke-jr> CDs sure don't last long
2069 2011-07-16 17:06:38 <BlueMatt> no, but thats how long they theoretically last
2070 2011-07-16 17:06:46 <luke-jr> I learned that one the hard way
2071 2011-07-16 17:06:49 <BlueMatt> archival-grade cds do
2072 2011-07-16 17:06:52 <BlueMatt> regular cds dont
2073 2011-07-16 17:07:07 <BlueMatt> a flash drive will last (I think, not sure) around 10 years if not plugged in
2074 2011-07-16 17:07:10 <BlueMatt> after that they lose bits
2075 2011-07-16 17:07:14 * luke-jr personally gave up on offline media, and just maintains 2 live copies at all times :P
2076 2011-07-16 17:07:17 <BlueMatt> but if you plug it in, you should be fine
2077 2011-07-16 17:07:24 <b4epoche> print out the qr code... and take a photograph of them
2078 2011-07-16 17:07:32 <b4epoche> store the negative ;-)
2079 2011-07-16 17:07:34 <luke-jr> b4epoche: that's what he wants to do
2080 2011-07-16 17:07:42 <luke-jr> b4epoche: but we don't have deterministic wallets implemented yet
2081 2011-07-16 17:08:03 <b4epoche> I'm not sure what is meant by a deterministic wallet
2082 2011-07-16 17:08:05 <luke-jr> and I guess we don't have to have a complete working implementation to make the keys⦠:p
2083 2011-07-16 17:08:09 <BlueMatt> anyway, I dont see any advantage for him to do this, just put a wallet.dat on a flash drive and on an ftp and email it to yourself
2084 2011-07-16 17:08:13 <BlueMatt> noway you lose it
2085 2011-07-16 17:08:14 <luke-jr> b4epoche: one master key for infinite addresses
2086 2011-07-16 17:08:21 <pusle> build like stonehenge with huge rocks for each bit in the QR code :P
2087 2011-07-16 17:08:29 <copumpkin> store your wallet on tahoe lafs ;)
2088 2011-07-16 17:08:55 <luke-jr> pusle: seen stonehedge lately? it seems to have lost a lot of bits
2089 2011-07-16 17:08:58 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2090 2011-07-16 17:09:19 * b4epoche was thinking about 3d printing the qr codes
2091 2011-07-16 17:09:28 <pusle> did last a while tho, and with highest level ECC 33% of the bits can be missing
2092 2011-07-16 17:10:25 <unclemantis> I was thinking of engraving the private key in sterling silver and storing it in a heat resistant and fireproof safe
2093 2011-07-16 17:10:46 <unclemantis> the whole reason for sending payments to 1000+ public addresses to end up in the private address
2094 2011-07-16 17:10:47 <b4epoche> luke-jr: hopefully they had some self-repairing ECC
2095 2011-07-16 17:11:16 <unclemantis> I could generate 1000+ unique address pairs and just send the balance once a week to the offline private key
2096 2011-07-16 17:11:41 <diki> let me ask once more. If you give the same getwork to two threads and they both starts on the same nonces(i.e from 1 or whatever), because of this ntime the hashes they produce will be different?
2097 2011-07-16 17:11:42 <b4epoche> unclemantis: I can certainly see why you'd like to do that?
2098 2011-07-16 17:12:16 <b4epoche> but I'm not seeing the connection between doing that and wallet 'security'
2099 2011-07-16 17:12:28 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2100 2011-07-16 17:12:33 <unclemantis> b4epoche protection from the apocolipse :)
2101 2011-07-16 17:12:39 * unclemantis is a mad man
2102 2011-07-16 17:12:47 slux has joined
2103 2011-07-16 17:13:01 <b4epoche> so, having one master privkey is more secure?
2104 2011-07-16 17:14:04 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2105 2011-07-16 17:14:04 <unclemantis> if it has never been connected to the network
2106 2011-07-16 17:14:07 <unclemantis> yes
2107 2011-07-16 17:14:50 <b4epoche> and when it's destroyed in a fire?
2108 2011-07-16 17:15:06 <unclemantis> what fire? it will be engraved on a high temp metal
2109 2011-07-16 17:15:19 v_y has left ("Leaving")
2110 2011-07-16 17:15:20 fluffle has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2111 2011-07-16 17:15:31 <Eliel_> ah, that explains why you want just one :)
2112 2011-07-16 17:15:35 <unclemantis> either way, if i have 1000 addresses or just one. Be it stored on paper, metal or on a USB drive, it is still stored in the same location
2113 2011-07-16 17:15:50 <b4epoche> hmm... I could 3D print the qr code and use that to make a casting
2114 2011-07-16 17:16:11 skeledrew has joined
2115 2011-07-16 17:16:17 RBecker has joined
2116 2011-07-16 17:16:27 <b4epoche> unclemantis: but the beauty of 1000 is you can geo-cache them all over the world ;-)
2117 2011-07-16 17:16:48 <unclemantis> now that sounds like an idea for a game!
2118 2011-07-16 17:16:59 * b4epoche was just thinking that
2119 2011-07-16 17:17:00 <unclemantis> i gotta go folks. Take care. Thanks for hearing me out
2120 2011-07-16 17:17:12 <unclemantis> but if you all have an idea to my dialema let me know
2121 2011-07-16 17:17:13 unclemantis has quit ()
2122 2011-07-16 17:18:44 <Eliel_> oh, he went. Just when I was about to say about my discovery poking around in key.h :/
2123 2011-07-16 17:18:59 <Joric> dialema sounds like intestinal disorder
2124 2011-07-16 17:19:21 <b4epoche> Eliel_: watcha find?
2125 2011-07-16 17:19:29 <Eliel_> you could easily implement your own own deterministic wallet scheme. Probably safe enough too.
2126 2011-07-16 17:19:44 <Eliel_> you can set the secret used in the key
2127 2011-07-16 17:20:01 Ryan has quit (Desktop!~Ryan@64.20.128.109.dyn-e-pool1.pool.hargray.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2128 2011-07-16 17:20:02 <Eliel_> it's 32 bits of binary data
2129 2011-07-16 17:20:20 <luke-jr> diki: you're doing it wrong
2130 2011-07-16 17:20:53 viggi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2131 2011-07-16 17:20:54 <Eliel_> so, just create one normal private key, then get the secret from it and just hash it several times with whatever modification you think works for use as secrets in the other keys
2132 2011-07-16 17:21:09 <diki> 10 minutes later?
2133 2011-07-16 17:21:11 <diki> really?
2134 2011-07-16 17:21:11 <luke-jr> diki: thread 1 starts at nonce 0, thread 2 starts at nonce 20000000, thread 3 starts at nonce 40000000, thread 4 starts at nonce 60000000
2135 2011-07-16 17:21:17 freakazoid has joined
2136 2011-07-16 17:21:25 <diki> luke, ntime is a big factor
2137 2011-07-16 17:21:29 <diki> if it gets incremented
2138 2011-07-16 17:21:35 <diki> who cares what where starts from
2139 2011-07-16 17:21:38 <luke-jr> diki: ntime gets incremented once per second
2140 2011-07-16 17:21:50 <luke-jr> in all threads
2141 2011-07-16 17:21:58 <diki> which is a problem
2142 2011-07-16 17:22:01 <luke-jr> no
2143 2011-07-16 17:22:41 <Eliel_> if there was only one solution, it would be a problem. But that's not the case.
2144 2011-07-16 17:23:06 <luke-jr> the right solution doesn't have the problem :D
2145 2011-07-16 17:23:24 <luke-jr> that's why the threads work on DIFFERENT nonce ranges
2146 2011-07-16 17:24:09 <Eliel_> or perhaps I should not try to guess what diki is getting at :D
2147 2011-07-16 17:24:24 <Eliel_> diki: are you trying to say it's a problem that not all nonces get tried for every ntime?
2148 2011-07-16 17:25:11 <diki> YES
2149 2011-07-16 17:25:30 <Eliel_> it's not a problem because there's many potential solutions out there. Not just one.
2150 2011-07-16 17:25:39 <diki> and i want all of the,
2151 2011-07-16 17:25:42 <diki> them
2152 2011-07-16 17:25:54 viggi has joined
2153 2011-07-16 17:26:41 <Eliel_> it makes no real difference if you check all nonces for each ntime (and as a result check fewer ntimes) or if you just check some nonces for every ntime.
2154 2011-07-16 17:27:07 <diki> well i am kinda paranoid
2155 2011-07-16 17:27:28 <diki> imagine that if ntime was not increased this second, in the next i would've found a block...yielding me 50btc
2156 2011-07-16 17:27:55 <diki> but since it did, the chance or potential was lost
2157 2011-07-16 17:28:10 <Eliel_> I can turn that around. What if there's a block waiting to be found at the next ntime but not at the current ntime?
2158 2011-07-16 17:28:21 <Joric> someone really have a spare cpu power - note 7 chars, all lowercase http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Ga9Dizn1p6ctGWausC1osLSrXFdioxide
2159 2011-07-16 17:28:42 <Eliel_> if you stick with the current ntime, you'd miss that because the next ntime jump would then be larger
2160 2011-07-16 17:29:00 <diki> ntime is controlled by the program
2161 2011-07-16 17:29:03 <diki> at least for cgminer
2162 2011-07-16 17:29:39 <Eliel_> what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter exactly which bit combinations you try, as long as you don't repeat the same ones.
2163 2011-07-16 17:29:58 <Eliel_> every bit combination is as likely to produce a block as any other
2164 2011-07-16 17:30:20 <luke-jr> diki: that's not paranoid, it's just stupid
2165 2011-07-16 17:30:48 slux has joined
2166 2011-07-16 17:30:48 <diki> and again...5 minutes later
2167 2011-07-16 17:30:56 <luke-jr> diki: besides, that's all the more reason for noncerange
2168 2011-07-16 17:31:04 <diki> then do it
2169 2011-07-16 17:31:06 <diki> gogogo
2170 2011-07-16 17:31:09 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2171 2011-07-16 17:31:13 <luke-jr> with more people working on the same work, we're closer to exhausting each nonce
2172 2011-07-16 17:32:07 <Eliel_> how accurate representation of time is the ntime? is it with an accuracy of a second?
2173 2011-07-16 17:33:03 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2174 2011-07-16 17:33:06 <Eliel_> if it was microseconds, you could probably just give every miner the same getwork and everything would work fine.
2175 2011-07-16 17:34:07 <luke-jr> Eliel_: â¦
2176 2011-07-16 17:34:19 sanchaz has joined
2177 2011-07-16 17:34:21 <luke-jr> except when people have clocks within microsecond accurate
2178 2011-07-16 17:34:24 <luke-jr> but it's second
2179 2011-07-16 17:34:38 nhodges has joined
2180 2011-07-16 17:35:35 citiz3n has quit ()
2181 2011-07-16 17:36:32 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2182 2011-07-16 17:37:18 <Eliel_> is there anything other than nonce and ntime that the miner could change?
2183 2011-07-16 17:37:22 <luke-jr> no
2184 2011-07-16 17:37:35 <Eliel_> no way to add a bigger nonce either?
2185 2011-07-16 17:37:41 <luke-jr> â¦
2186 2011-07-16 17:37:42 vigilyn has joined
2187 2011-07-16 17:38:23 <luke-jr> 400 GH/s is 1 getwork/s
2188 2011-07-16 17:38:26 <luke-jr> it's not that bad
2189 2011-07-16 17:38:57 <Eliel_> ah, the nonce is bigger than I expected :)
2190 2011-07-16 17:39:51 <luke-jr> 4 GH/s ea
2191 2011-07-16 17:40:33 Zr40 has left ()
2192 2011-07-16 17:41:14 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2193 2011-07-16 17:48:36 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2194 2011-07-16 17:48:59 * makomk mutters about the wildly inaccurate FPGA speculation earlier.
2195 2011-07-16 17:49:42 <makomk> Actual requirements are in the ballpark of 75,000 LEs (*not* gates - the number of gates is much higher) for a 1 hash per clock design.
2196 2011-07-16 17:52:06 <Eliel_> makomk: how much would that affect the expected hashing speed?
2197 2011-07-16 17:53:21 slux has joined
2198 2011-07-16 17:53:31 <senseles> damn i was way off
2199 2011-07-16 17:53:42 <senseles> i thought it was 5000gates for 1 has per clock
2200 2011-07-16 17:54:13 <makomk> senseles: also, the XC2VP20s and XCV1000s you were posting earlier were not just too small to fit even a single fully-unrolled hasher in, they're a pain to get code onto.
2201 2011-07-16 17:54:28 <makomk> Eliel_: quite a lot...
2202 2011-07-16 17:54:42 <senseles> that sucks :(
2203 2011-07-16 17:54:50 <Eliel_> makomk: how much and in which direction?
2204 2011-07-16 17:54:51 <senseles> i was calculating the XCV1000 at like 3.5ghash/s
2205 2011-07-16 17:54:54 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2206 2011-07-16 17:54:56 <senseles> i was about to buy 60 of them heh
2207 2011-07-16 17:55:03 WildSoil has joined
2208 2011-07-16 17:55:14 <makomk> Probably a good thing you didn't.
2209 2011-07-16 17:55:22 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
2210 2011-07-16 17:55:23 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2211 2011-07-16 17:55:25 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136593 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 494 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1672886.85870087
2212 2011-07-16 17:55:26 <Eliel_> ok, sounds like big overestimate then
2213 2011-07-16 17:55:46 <senseles> so how many gates for 1 has per clock?
2214 2011-07-16 17:55:55 <senseles> what is an "LE"?
2215 2011-07-16 17:56:04 <senseles> er nvm
2216 2011-07-16 17:56:37 <makomk> Logic element. The number of gates is meaningless marketing BS; you want to look at the datasheets on Xilinx's website.
2217 2011-07-16 17:56:52 <senseles> i have been, but i was focused on gates up till now
2218 2011-07-16 17:57:18 <senseles> logic cell = LE?
2219 2011-07-16 17:57:33 <makomk> They're basically the same thing, yeah.
2220 2011-07-16 17:57:45 <makomk> I think logic element is Altera's name for them.
2221 2011-07-16 17:58:00 Joric has quit ()
2222 2011-07-16 17:58:23 <senseles> so that XCV1000 chip would only get about 84mhash/s?
2223 2011-07-16 17:58:31 <[7]> way less
2224 2011-07-16 17:58:47 <[7]> senseles: to give you a ballpark number number, a 1200Kgate spartan2 will get ~3MH/s IIRC
2225 2011-07-16 17:59:10 <senseles> when i looked at the dev kits
2226 2011-07-16 17:59:15 <senseles> it seemed that with all the extra features
2227 2011-07-16 17:59:28 <[7]> yeah, extra features are the usual devkit problem :)
2228 2011-07-16 17:59:28 <senseles> there has to be some way to do a simple PCB cost effectively
2229 2011-07-16 17:59:50 <[7]> if you want to go for FPGA mining, go for XC6SLX150-N3 chips
2230 2011-07-16 18:00:19 <[7]> depending on how much you optimize your code, these will be in the 100-200MH/s area
2231 2011-07-16 18:00:25 <IO-> anyone know what happened to Art?
2232 2011-07-16 18:00:38 <[7]> IO-: nope, but I'd be interested in that as well
2233 2011-07-16 18:00:46 <makomk> [7]: anyone managed to get a miner to fit on one of those at a decent speed yet?
2234 2011-07-16 18:01:07 <[7]> makomk: well, yeah, ArtForz...
2235 2011-07-16 18:01:21 <makomk> He's not sharing though...
2236 2011-07-16 18:01:22 <[7]> I haven't managed to do it yet, but I haven't tried hard
2237 2011-07-16 18:01:53 <[7]> makomk: he actually considered sharing the source code it once he sells the boards, but I have no idea what's up with him
2238 2011-07-16 18:02:01 <makomk> Heh, I see.
2239 2011-07-16 18:02:10 <makomk> Anyway, I've got to go eat.
2240 2011-07-16 18:02:11 eoss has joined
2241 2011-07-16 18:02:28 <[7]> senseles: see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=22426 for such an effort
2242 2011-07-16 18:04:06 citiz3n has joined
2243 2011-07-16 18:04:18 <senseles> ty
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2247 2011-07-16 18:10:08 <senseles> Stratix III .. about 300mhash/s per chip?
2248 2011-07-16 18:12:08 slux has joined
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2250 2011-07-16 18:15:38 Fireball has joined
2251 2011-07-16 18:16:28 <[7]> senseles: I have no idea about the Altera ones
2252 2011-07-16 18:17:13 Ryan has joined
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2261 2011-07-16 18:33:53 loxxx has joined
2262 2011-07-16 18:33:55 <loxxx> hi
2263 2011-07-16 18:34:00 <loxxx> anyone buying at 13ppusd pm me
2264 2011-07-16 18:34:43 vorlov has joined
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2271 2011-07-16 18:40:51 <BlueMatt> loxxx: not here #bitcoin-otc
2272 2011-07-16 18:42:05 <Blitzboom> is the dev team more libertarian than the early adopter crowd or less?
2273 2011-07-16 18:42:12 <BlueMatt> less
2274 2011-07-16 18:42:17 <BlueMatt> well who do you mean
2275 2011-07-16 18:42:21 <BlueMatt> by early adopter
2276 2011-07-16 18:42:30 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2277 2011-07-16 18:42:39 <BlueMatt> if you mean compared to the average forum-goer (or I suppose the loudest forum goers) its kinda hard to be more...
2278 2011-07-16 18:42:40 <Blitzboom> you know, the libertarians on the forums
2279 2011-07-16 18:42:49 <Blitzboom> the old timers from slashdot
2280 2011-07-16 18:43:01 <BlueMatt> the old timers arent the loudest on the forum
2281 2011-07-16 18:43:11 <Blitzboom> depends on how old
2282 2011-07-16 18:43:14 <BlueMatt> but the forum tends to be much, much more anarchist than the devs
2283 2011-07-16 18:43:35 <BlueMatt> the forum doesnt qualify as libertarian anymore, they are anarchistic
2284 2011-07-16 18:43:57 <Blitzboom> nah
2285 2011-07-16 18:44:03 <Blitzboom> i see many non-libertarians on the forum, too
2286 2011-07-16 18:44:15 <BlueMatt> well Im talking about the loudest people on the forums
2287 2011-07-16 18:44:20 <BlueMatt> who tend to be fairly anarchistic
2288 2011-07-16 18:44:24 fn0rd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2289 2011-07-16 18:44:25 <Blitzboom> well yeah, that would be atlas
2290 2011-07-16 18:44:36 <copumpkin> does he shrug a lot?
2291 2011-07-16 18:44:39 <BlueMatt> the devs tend to be reasonable
2292 2011-07-16 18:44:50 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2293 2011-07-16 18:44:50 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2294 2011-07-16 18:44:51 <Blitzboom> you mean "fascist"
2295 2011-07-16 18:44:57 <BlueMatt> lol
2296 2011-07-16 18:45:00 <copumpkin> "tryants"
2297 2011-07-16 18:45:02 <Blitzboom> haha, just kidding
2298 2011-07-16 18:45:05 <copumpkin> people love to throw that word around
2299 2011-07-16 18:45:05 <BlueMatt> that is why bitcoin.org is divorcing the forums ;)
2300 2011-07-16 18:45:15 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: see, fascist?
2301 2011-07-16 18:45:21 <BlueMatt> yep
2302 2011-07-16 18:45:23 <BlueMatt> and proud
2303 2011-07-16 18:45:23 <Blitzboom> we have freedom of opinion
2304 2011-07-16 18:45:30 <Blitzboom> you are proposing censorship
2305 2011-07-16 18:45:37 <BlueMatt> no
2306 2011-07-16 18:45:41 x6763 has joined
2307 2011-07-16 18:45:45 * copumpkin had a friend in high school who openly called himself a fascist
2308 2011-07-16 18:46:00 <BlueMatt> the forum isnt being censored, only moved off of bitcoin.org as it is a bad representation of the community
2309 2011-07-16 18:46:15 <Blitzboom> why is it a bad representation?
2310 2011-07-16 18:46:18 <copumpkin> in other news, silk road is getting moved to bitcoin.org
2311 2011-07-16 18:46:22 <copumpkin> as a better representation of the community
2312 2011-07-16 18:46:23 <Blitzboom> i think it represents the community quite accurately
2313 2011-07-16 18:46:34 <BlueMatt> because the loudest people enjoy illegal activities and are generally anarchist?
2314 2011-07-16 18:46:37 <Blitzboom> just because you do not agree with the communityâs view doesnât mean itâs bad
2315 2011-07-16 18:46:58 <BlueMatt> no, it means legitimate businesses look at bitcoin as crazed and will stay away
2316 2011-07-16 18:47:05 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: you can either 1) encourage the silent to speak or 2) shut the loud ones down
2317 2011-07-16 18:47:22 <Blitzboom> freedom of speech seems broken?
2318 2011-07-16 18:47:26 <BlueMatt> or 3) divorce bitcoin itself from those forums and let those people keep on going
2319 2011-07-16 18:47:35 <BlueMatt> no one is shutting down those forms
2320 2011-07-16 18:47:39 <BlueMatt> just moving them off bitcoin.org
2321 2011-07-16 18:47:59 <Blitzboom> do you not think they will just move to the other, more prominent one?
2322 2011-07-16 18:48:07 <BlueMatt> what other one?
2323 2011-07-16 18:48:14 Fireball has joined
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2326 2011-07-16 18:48:15 Fireball has joined
2327 2011-07-16 18:48:25 <BlueMatt> I dont think there are currently any plans on making a new forum on *.bitcoin.org
2328 2011-07-16 18:48:25 <Blitzboom> there wonât be a forum anymore on bitcoin.org?
2329 2011-07-16 18:48:26 <Sami345> ;bc,calc 180000
2330 2011-07-16 18:48:34 <BlueMatt> dont think so
2331 2011-07-16 18:48:36 <Blitzboom> i think this would be a mistake
2332 2011-07-16 18:48:37 <Sami345> ;bc,lol
2333 2011-07-16 18:48:43 <Blitzboom> community is everything, BlueMatt
2334 2011-07-16 18:48:46 <BlueMatt> the only official communication channels will be the dev mailing list and freenode
2335 2011-07-16 18:48:51 <BlueMatt> no one is removing the community
2336 2011-07-16 18:48:56 <BlueMatt> just making it unofficial
2337 2011-07-16 18:49:01 fn0rd has joined
2338 2011-07-16 18:49:06 <Blitzboom> you are taking away the chance of many to participate
2339 2011-07-16 18:49:11 <BlueMatt> how?
2340 2011-07-16 18:49:12 <Blitzboom> (by taking the visibility)
2341 2011-07-16 18:49:19 loxxx has left ()
2342 2011-07-16 18:49:24 <Blitzboom> this way, you will make it even more fringe
2343 2011-07-16 18:49:28 <BlueMatt> and stop saying me, I was not a part of this decision (though I agree)
2344 2011-07-16 18:49:30 <Blitzboom> just like the US handles drugs
2345 2011-07-16 18:49:35 <Blitzboom> itâs plural you
2346 2011-07-16 18:49:36 <BlueMatt> I quite disagree
2347 2011-07-16 18:49:43 <BlueMatt> remember, Im not a bitcoin dev
2348 2011-07-16 18:49:53 <BlueMatt> the only position I hold in the bitcoin community is op of #bitcoin-dev
2349 2011-07-16 18:49:54 <Blitzboom> what? i thought you were
2350 2011-07-16 18:50:06 <BlueMatt> no, only sipa, tcatm, jgarzik, and gavin are officially devs
2351 2011-07-16 18:50:09 <Blitzboom> you do develop the client
2352 2011-07-16 18:50:16 <Blitzboom> what do i care for official?
2353 2011-07-16 18:50:17 <BlueMatt> by that measurement everyone is
2354 2011-07-16 18:50:36 <Blitzboom> anyone who develops is a developer, yes
2355 2011-07-16 18:51:08 <BlueMatt> ah well then I cant say the devs are more or less anarchistic than the forums because the forums are devs
2356 2011-07-16 18:51:53 <Blitzboom> lol come on, you are a bitcoin dev
2357 2011-07-16 18:52:04 <Blitzboom> maybe not core or whatever
2358 2011-07-16 18:52:23 <BlueMatt> if you are saying just based on total amount of contributions, I guess...
2359 2011-07-16 18:52:47 skeledrew has joined
2360 2011-07-16 18:52:52 <BlueMatt> but there are quite a few then, and I dont know much about the personal ideologies of them
2361 2011-07-16 18:52:53 <Blitzboom> anyway ⦠my point still stands. if you remove the visibility of the forum, then it will be disconnected even more by the reality of its userbase
2362 2011-07-16 18:53:17 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2363 2011-07-16 18:53:22 <BlueMatt> so? that also means that companies or legit people who see bitcoin wont associate those forums with bitcoin community at-large
2364 2011-07-16 18:53:23 stalled has joined
2365 2011-07-16 18:53:30 <Blitzboom> and i do think that the community ascepts are crucial to bitcoin
2366 2011-07-16 18:53:35 <BlueMatt> I agree
2367 2011-07-16 18:53:40 <Blitzboom> and forums fulfill a great deal in that
2368 2011-07-16 18:53:55 <BlueMatt> the community isnt going away
2369 2011-07-16 18:54:19 <BlueMatt> though I would like to have a new forum on *.bitcoin.org that is *only* tech support...
2370 2011-07-16 18:54:24 <BlueMatt> but dont know if anyone else does
2371 2011-07-16 18:54:29 <Blitzboom> i do hope so. because itâs the only thing we have practically
2372 2011-07-16 18:54:46 <Blitzboom> yeah, thatâd be a better solution
2373 2011-07-16 18:54:53 <BlueMatt> well, no, if someone does that, then there is no community on that forum
2374 2011-07-16 18:54:58 <BlueMatt> only tech support and bug reports
2375 2011-07-16 18:55:18 kudu is now known as longaway!mblair@wikipedia/Waterfox|kudu
2376 2011-07-16 18:55:21 <BlueMatt> are you not on the dev mailing list?
2377 2011-07-16 18:55:31 <BlueMatt> JS was asking about that this morning
2378 2011-07-16 18:55:39 <Blitzboom> JS?
2379 2011-07-16 18:55:42 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r94ba890 / (lib/schema/block.js lib/schema/transaction.js lib/script.js): Fixed/perfected getblock RPC stuff. - http://bit.ly/pedTUm https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/94ba890d7db6f2dababcd17c9a3dcf8ae677181c
2380 2011-07-16 18:55:45 <BlueMatt> john smith
2381 2011-07-16 18:55:50 <BlueMatt> dont think its his real name
2382 2011-07-16 18:56:06 <justmoon> BlueMatt, his real name is John Doe
2383 2011-07-16 18:56:06 <Blitzboom> ah, i like his posts
2384 2011-07-16 18:56:11 <BlueMatt> the guy who does bitcoin-qt
2385 2011-07-16 18:56:23 <BlueMatt> justmoon: ahhhh, ok
2386 2011-07-16 18:56:28 <justmoon> BlueMatt, he's the brother in law of Max Mustermann actually
2387 2011-07-16 18:56:40 <Blitzboom> justmoon, i hope at least you are not a fascist?
2388 2011-07-16 18:56:51 <justmoon> nah, I'm an indifferentialist
2389 2011-07-16 18:57:12 <Blitzboom> is that the agnosticism of politics?
2390 2011-07-16 18:57:36 <justmoon> it means I like when my unit tests pass and other than that I don't give a ****
2391 2011-07-16 18:57:53 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
2392 2011-07-16 18:58:20 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: quite ironic the whole situation, really â¦
2393 2011-07-16 18:58:30 <justmoon> I think bitcoin's political "impact" is way overblown anyway
2394 2011-07-16 18:58:51 <Blitzboom> see, the early anarcho adopters are struggling to suppress their political views
2395 2011-07-16 18:58:53 Xunie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2396 2011-07-16 18:58:53 <BlueMatt> justmoon: I agree, but the forums make it look the other way
2397 2011-07-16 18:58:58 <Blitzboom> and thereby reducing the value of their bitcoins
2398 2011-07-16 18:59:01 <justmoon> BlueMatt, time will tell I suppose
2399 2011-07-16 18:59:08 <BlueMatt> well, whatever
2400 2011-07-16 18:59:26 <BlueMatt> personally, I dont care too much where the forums are
2401 2011-07-16 18:59:35 <BlueMatt> I dont use them much anymore anyway
2402 2011-07-16 18:59:40 <BlueMatt> devmailing list and irc
2403 2011-07-16 18:59:47 <justmoon> BlueMatt, same here
2404 2011-07-16 18:59:48 <BlueMatt> other than that, not worth visiting
2405 2011-07-16 19:00:08 <Blitzboom> sometimes, there are a few interesting threads
2406 2011-07-16 19:00:20 <Blitzboom> but yeah, itâs become mostly shit
2407 2011-07-16 19:00:52 <Blitzboom> you can blame 4chan
2408 2011-07-16 19:02:38 Nicksasa_ is now known as Nicksasa
2409 2011-07-16 19:03:59 <makomk> 4chan's far less full of libertarians than the Bitcoin forums.
2410 2011-07-16 19:04:16 <BlueMatt> bitcoin forums are full of anarchists, not libertarians
2411 2011-07-16 19:04:19 <BlueMatt> there is a difference
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2413 2011-07-16 19:04:45 <WakiMiko> there is a vote for a bitcoin stackexchange is progress
2414 2011-07-16 19:04:45 <makomk> Well, they're what generally pass for libertarians on the Internet and in the US these days, anyway...
2415 2011-07-16 19:05:13 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko: a vote, I thought there already was one?
2416 2011-07-16 19:05:28 <BlueMatt> makomk: lol, sad but true...
2417 2011-07-16 19:05:38 Ramokk has joined
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2419 2011-07-16 19:06:25 <WakiMiko> BlueMatt: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/30763/bitcoin-crypto-currency not sure about the process of new SEs but i dont think its through yet
2420 2011-07-16 19:07:13 <BlueMatt> wait, wtf is a stack exchange?
2421 2011-07-16 19:07:18 discHead has joined
2422 2011-07-16 19:07:26 <Namegduf> You buy and sell stacks.
2423 2011-07-16 19:07:32 <BlueMatt> wtf is a stack?
2424 2011-07-16 19:07:33 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2425 2011-07-16 19:07:39 <WakiMiko> you know stackoverflow?
2426 2011-07-16 19:07:50 <BlueMatt> ...
2427 2011-07-16 19:07:51 <WakiMiko> where you can ask programming questions?
2428 2011-07-16 19:08:00 <BlueMatt> a bitcoin programming questions site?
2429 2011-07-16 19:08:02 <BlueMatt> wtf?
2430 2011-07-16 19:08:09 <WakiMiko> its like that, except for all kinds of subjects
2431 2011-07-16 19:08:16 <lfm> stackoverflow, like for makeing botnets or something?
2432 2011-07-16 19:08:18 <BlueMatt> so...a forum?
2433 2011-07-16 19:09:12 <WakiMiko> not quite
2434 2011-07-16 19:09:22 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: whatâs the difference between libertarians and anarchists?
2435 2011-07-16 19:09:32 <WakiMiko> people can ask questions, experts (sometimes) answer
2436 2011-07-16 19:09:32 <Blitzboom> i thought anarchists are just a subcategory
2437 2011-07-16 19:09:33 <Namegduf> "a lot"
2438 2011-07-16 19:09:39 <BlueMatt> anarchists want no govt, libertarians want govt to stay the fuck out of their lives
2439 2011-07-16 19:09:43 <WakiMiko> http://stackoverflow.com/ is pretty good for programming stuff
2440 2011-07-16 19:09:57 <Namegduf> Libertarians are for free trade and have actually fuck all opinion as a class about government otherwise
2441 2011-07-16 19:10:01 <BlueMatt> libertarians, however, understand that govt does actually have a use
2442 2011-07-16 19:10:15 <WakiMiko> and exchange has nothing to do with trading :P
2443 2011-07-16 19:10:25 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: i thought thatâs anarchist vs. minarchist
2444 2011-07-16 19:10:47 <lfm> wtf is minarchist?
2445 2011-07-16 19:10:58 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2446 2011-07-16 19:11:03 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2447 2011-07-16 19:11:03 <Namegduf> It's possible to be libertarian and anarchist. Sort of.
2448 2011-07-16 19:11:05 <Blitzboom> and yes, the government has a use in great redistrubition due to corruption
2449 2011-07-16 19:11:15 <Namegduf> It's also possible to be libertarian and outright authoritarian on other issues
2450 2011-07-16 19:11:21 <Blitzboom> itâs pretty profitable for a few people
2451 2011-07-16 19:11:50 <Namegduf> See: Republicans (although they really just manipulate libertarians for personal profit)
2452 2011-07-16 19:12:04 <BlueMatt> a libertarian will tell you that govt has some role in things eg preventing crime
2453 2011-07-16 19:12:13 <BlueMatt> an anarchist will tell you to go buy a gun
2454 2011-07-16 19:12:28 <Namegduf> The only thing that libertarianism by definition says government shouldn't do is interfere in free trade.
2455 2011-07-16 19:12:37 <lfm> then tell your neighbor to buy a bigger gun
2456 2011-07-16 19:12:39 <Namegduf> It's possible to be libertarian and have any view of government that doesn't conflict.
2457 2011-07-16 19:13:03 <BlueMatt> ok, technically, maybe not, but that is how /I/ use the term...
2458 2011-07-16 19:13:16 <Namegduf> Anarchism is much harder to pin down but is generally "no government as we would recognise it".
2459 2011-07-16 19:13:16 <BlueMatt> which means about...nothing
2460 2011-07-16 19:13:31 <Namegduf> Which permits most anything but a recognisable form of government
2461 2011-07-16 19:13:39 <Namegduf> Libertarians are OFTEN minarchists
2462 2011-07-16 19:13:41 <b4epoche> mailing list? bitcoin-dev@lists.sourceforge.net?
2463 2011-07-16 19:13:44 <Namegduf> In my experience.
2464 2011-07-16 19:13:46 <diki> what do you guys think if i ruled over the world?
2465 2011-07-16 19:13:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: bitcoin-development
2466 2011-07-16 19:13:53 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: or buy an army
2467 2011-07-16 19:13:54 <Blitzboom> trolololo
2468 2011-07-16 19:13:58 AStove has joined
2469 2011-07-16 19:14:04 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: but you have to sign up to be able to send to it
2470 2011-07-16 19:14:34 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: well after a while of a society being anarchist, eventually someone will, and then form a totalitarian govt, and then we are back to where we started...
2471 2011-07-16 19:14:44 <Namegduf> Bingo
2472 2011-07-16 19:14:46 <b4epoche> sign-up? at lists.sf.net?
2473 2011-07-16 19:14:55 <BlueMatt> think so
2474 2011-07-16 19:15:02 <Namegduf> Anarchism isn't really feasible anyway because it does not provide for its own stability
2475 2011-07-16 19:15:04 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
2476 2011-07-16 19:15:05 <diki> honestly, i really do wish to rule over the world
2477 2011-07-16 19:15:11 <diki> one person to rule them all
2478 2011-07-16 19:15:15 Amtal has joined
2479 2011-07-16 19:15:17 <Namegduf> I would crush the world under my social liberal fist.
2480 2011-07-16 19:15:19 <diki> i would then merge intel and amd
2481 2011-07-16 19:15:33 <Namegduf> You will have your global free healthcare and you will like it, citizen.
2482 2011-07-16 19:15:34 <lfm> diki you would get assasinated
2483 2011-07-16 19:15:42 <Namegduf> :D
2484 2011-07-16 19:15:46 <diki> not without a fight i wont
2485 2011-07-16 19:15:47 <Blitzboom> Namegduf: that sounds awesome
2486 2011-07-16 19:15:49 <BlueMatt> diki: I love how merging intel and amd is the first thing you think of when you think about ruling the world...
2487 2011-07-16 19:16:13 <BlueMatt> diki: thats the point of assassination, you dont get to fight...
2488 2011-07-16 19:17:21 <diki> only one person in the whole world was assassinated(before usama)
2489 2011-07-16 19:17:31 <BlueMatt> lololololol
2490 2011-07-16 19:17:45 <Amtal> Ass ass in ated. Heheheh.
2491 2011-07-16 19:17:46 <diki> John F. Kennedy
2492 2011-07-16 19:17:49 <diki> afaik
2493 2011-07-16 19:17:53 <Blitzboom> of course, bin laden had to be thrown into the sea
2494 2011-07-16 19:17:56 <Blitzboom> JUST IN CASE
2495 2011-07-16 19:17:56 <BlueMatt> trololololol
2496 2011-07-16 19:18:11 <diki> as you can see, bush is alive, obama is alive
2497 2011-07-16 19:18:17 <diki> i will be even more healthier
2498 2011-07-16 19:18:22 <BlueMatt> ok then
2499 2011-07-16 19:18:58 <diki> the world needs a push into the era of technology
2500 2011-07-16 19:19:07 <lfm> lol
2501 2011-07-16 19:19:19 <Blitzboom> there world needs a push into the middle ages
2502 2011-07-16 19:19:49 <diki> no, it needs a push into the digital
2503 2011-07-16 19:19:50 <lfm> so you'll give it a push, into the sea
2504 2011-07-16 19:19:51 <diki> from the analog
2505 2011-07-16 19:20:03 <BlueMatt> I agree the world needs a push back to the middle ages, where we are all ruled by totalitarian govts
2506 2011-07-16 19:20:12 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: no governments
2507 2011-07-16 19:20:20 <BlueMatt> well, sort of
2508 2011-07-16 19:20:25 <diki> then i'll brand you as
2509 2011-07-16 19:20:27 <diki> witches
2510 2011-07-16 19:20:29 <b4epoche> dev mailing list rejected me :-(
2511 2011-07-16 19:20:30 <diki> and burn you :P
2512 2011-07-16 19:20:37 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r69a667c / (bin/bitcoinjs daemon/init.js package.json daemon/rpccli.js): Added JSON RPC client command line tool. - http://bit.ly/qmC4MV https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/69a667c562b1c9afa2153fd2be081fe34d8f0f44
2513 2011-07-16 19:20:47 <Blitzboom> governments are a modern phenomenon
2514 2011-07-16 19:20:48 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: you have to register and send from the email that is registered...other than that, what???
2515 2011-07-16 19:20:52 nhodges_p has joined
2516 2011-07-16 19:20:59 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: trololololol
2517 2011-07-16 19:21:11 <Blitzboom> and they were introduced to have greater control so that the banksters can leech as much as they want to
2518 2011-07-16 19:21:17 <Namegduf> Guys haven't you ever played Civilisation 5
2519 2011-07-16 19:21:25 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: trololololol
2520 2011-07-16 19:21:30 <Namegduf> The middle east needs a culture-related wonder building nearby
2521 2011-07-16 19:21:32 <Namegduf> Thus Iraq
2522 2011-07-16 19:21:43 <Namegduf> Then the US can take over Iran bit by bit using culture values
2523 2011-07-16 19:21:47 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: are you a banker?
2524 2011-07-16 19:21:53 <Blitzboom> or just paid by them?
2525 2011-07-16 19:21:55 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: looking around sf.net to figure that out
2526 2011-07-16 19:22:15 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6FUR_nhGX8
2527 2011-07-16 19:22:17 <Blitzboom> itâs clear that we have no democracy
2528 2011-07-16 19:22:26 <Blitzboom> we have a nice plutocracy
2529 2011-07-16 19:22:26 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: trololololol
2530 2011-07-16 19:22:46 <Namegduf> You have to say Neptunecracy now
2531 2011-07-16 19:22:46 <Blitzboom> oh, wait, every couple of years we can choose between a few parties
2532 2011-07-16 19:22:52 <Namegduf> Pluto isn't a planet anymore
2533 2011-07-16 19:22:52 <Blitzboom> and they are all completely different
2534 2011-07-16 19:23:11 <diki> think of a building 10 square kilometres
2535 2011-07-16 19:23:31 <diki> a merge between amd/intel/nvidia and ibm into a single unified entity that governs technology
2536 2011-07-16 19:23:31 <Namegduf> Now imagine it airbourne and made of diamonds.
2537 2011-07-16 19:23:45 <BlueMatt> diki: trololololol
2538 2011-07-16 19:23:53 <diki> i am not trolling
2539 2011-07-16 19:23:56 <b4epoche> diki: and stagnates
2540 2011-07-16 19:23:57 <diki> if i could, i will
2541 2011-07-16 19:23:58 <BlueMatt> you guys are really funny tonight
2542 2011-07-16 19:24:16 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2543 2011-07-16 19:24:19 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2544 2011-07-16 19:24:30 slux has joined
2545 2011-07-16 19:24:33 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: seriously, donât you see that thereâs a small very powerful group virtually running the world?
2546 2011-07-16 19:24:34 <diki> think about Eureka(the tv series)
2547 2011-07-16 19:24:39 <diki> a building where science progresses
2548 2011-07-16 19:24:41 <Blitzboom> running the media, running finance, running the governments?
2549 2011-07-16 19:24:55 <Blitzboom> itâs no conspiracy theory, itâs plain logic
2550 2011-07-16 19:25:12 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: no, I think there is a small very powerful group of people who hate each other and are constantly fighting virtually thinking they are running
2551 2011-07-16 19:25:12 <Blitzboom> of course they will conspire to keep their might
2552 2011-07-16 19:25:24 <BlueMatt> the rest of us just play along
2553 2011-07-16 19:25:29 <Namegduf> Right.
2554 2011-07-16 19:25:29 <BlueMatt> because frankly, no one cares
2555 2011-07-16 19:25:40 <Blitzboom> thatâs what they want you to believe
2556 2011-07-16 19:25:45 <BlueMatt> ok
2557 2011-07-16 19:25:47 <Blitzboom> an illusion of competition
2558 2011-07-16 19:25:56 Kiba has joined
2559 2011-07-16 19:26:04 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: do you have a better system or are you just complaining?
2560 2011-07-16 19:26:08 <Zagitta> Blitzboom want a tinfoil hat to that delicous conspiracy? :)
2561 2011-07-16 19:26:13 <Blitzboom> i do have a better system
2562 2011-07-16 19:26:20 <Blitzboom> itâs called democracy
2563 2011-07-16 19:26:21 <BlueMatt> and it is...?
2564 2011-07-16 19:26:23 <BlueMatt> lol
2565 2011-07-16 19:26:26 <Namegduf> Blitzboom: Have you ever played Deus Ex
2566 2011-07-16 19:26:28 <BlueMatt> that works out so well
2567 2011-07-16 19:26:38 <Blitzboom> Namegduf: yes, multiple times
2568 2011-07-16 19:26:48 <Kiba> hello
2569 2011-07-16 19:26:52 <Namegduf> Blitzboom: Are you aware it is not a true story
2570 2011-07-16 19:26:56 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: thatâs because we donât have democracy atm
2571 2011-07-16 19:27:11 <Blitzboom> Namegduf: it could turn out to be very real
2572 2011-07-16 19:27:11 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: do you have a better system or are you just complaining?
2573 2011-07-16 19:27:15 <Namegduf> PS I picked the merge with the AI engine
2574 2011-07-16 19:27:17 <Namegduf> *ending
2575 2011-07-16 19:27:28 <BlueMatt> because people worked their ass off to give us a democracy and this is what we have
2576 2011-07-16 19:27:40 <BlueMatt> so a democracy is not a solution
2577 2011-07-16 19:27:48 <Kiba> we do have democracy
2578 2011-07-16 19:27:55 <Kiba> but democracy sucks
2579 2011-07-16 19:27:57 <Blitzboom> Kiba: no, the majority does not rule
2580 2011-07-16 19:28:09 <Blitzboom> itâs a small elite who rules by ruling the media
2581 2011-07-16 19:28:18 <Kiba> yeah, whatever
2582 2011-07-16 19:28:28 <Kiba> you can't expect the masses to make informed decision
2583 2011-07-16 19:28:28 <Namegduf> The majority will not ban the media
2584 2011-07-16 19:28:29 <Zagitta> Democracy is only as good as the people voting...
2585 2011-07-16 19:28:38 <Namegduf> Right
2586 2011-07-16 19:28:40 <Kiba> that's lunancy
2587 2011-07-16 19:28:44 <Blitzboom> i agree democracy sucks
2588 2011-07-16 19:28:46 <BlueMatt> and people are stupid, period
2589 2011-07-16 19:28:46 <Kiba> I know programming
2590 2011-07-16 19:28:54 <Namegduf> This is a fundamental flaw in democracy, which is operating as designed
2591 2011-07-16 19:28:57 <BlueMatt> well people en-masse are stupid
2592 2011-07-16 19:28:58 <Kiba> but I don't know shit
2593 2011-07-16 19:28:58 <Namegduf> It just sucked and always sucked
2594 2011-07-16 19:29:09 <Kiba> BlueMatt: more like people can't know everything
2595 2011-07-16 19:29:14 <citiz3n> Blitzboom is right about power brokers
2596 2011-07-16 19:29:18 * copumpkin knows everything
2597 2011-07-16 19:29:27 <BlueMatt> Kiba: never said it was possible for people to be smart, just pointing out how it is
2598 2011-07-16 19:29:27 <citiz3n> nearly all the power is concentrated in a very few number of people
2599 2011-07-16 19:29:36 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: you cannot imagine a better system than we have now?
2600 2011-07-16 19:29:43 <BlueMatt> Kiba: they cant know everything and thus are stupid wrt voting...
2601 2011-07-16 19:29:46 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: nope
2602 2011-07-16 19:29:48 <Namegduf> Getting closer to direct majority rule would, in fact, make media manipulation WORSE.
2603 2011-07-16 19:29:54 <Blitzboom> maybe a system where one participates more in governing than choosing a party every couple years?
2604 2011-07-16 19:29:55 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: and you havent given us one yet
2605 2011-07-16 19:29:56 <Kiba> BlueMatt: I don't think it's possible to be informed abot every issue from abortion to space
2606 2011-07-16 19:30:05 <citiz3n> i have one for you, BlueMatt
2607 2011-07-16 19:30:12 <Kiba> and we have politicans voting on everything
2608 2011-07-16 19:30:13 jjjx has joined
2609 2011-07-16 19:30:15 <Kiba> that's fucked up
2610 2011-07-16 19:30:18 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: direct democracy
2611 2011-07-16 19:30:18 <BlueMatt> Kiba: thus people are not good for voting
2612 2011-07-16 19:30:21 <Kiba> they're mostly lawyers
2613 2011-07-16 19:30:21 <Namegduf> Right now media manipulation has to manipulate people to indirectly influence politicans
2614 2011-07-16 19:30:21 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: lol
2615 2011-07-16 19:30:30 <Namegduf> Take that out, and you can remove the last step.
2616 2011-07-16 19:30:34 <Kiba> what do lawyers know about space and economic?
2617 2011-07-16 19:30:38 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: that would make the media more powerful and people cant know everyhing
2618 2011-07-16 19:30:41 <copumpkin> high connectivity and internet actually make direct democracy more feasible
2619 2011-07-16 19:30:43 <copumpkin> not that it'll ever happen
2620 2011-07-16 19:31:06 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: i am pretty certain tthey know more than politicians pretend to know
2621 2011-07-16 19:31:08 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: feasible != something we want
2622 2011-07-16 19:31:15 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: lol
2623 2011-07-16 19:31:24 nhodges has joined
2624 2011-07-16 19:31:33 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: the average politician is a ton smarter than the average person
2625 2011-07-16 19:31:35 * copumpkin wants a nice centrally organized communist state
2626 2011-07-16 19:31:37 brunner has joined
2627 2011-07-16 19:31:38 <BlueMatt> not that they are the top 10%
2628 2011-07-16 19:31:41 <Kiba> our economy works because in part we don't have to know everything
2629 2011-07-16 19:31:43 <BlueMatt> but they are >50%
2630 2011-07-16 19:31:44 <Namegduf> copumpkin: We tried that and it really sucked
2631 2011-07-16 19:31:53 <b4epoche> high connectivity and internet = allows the stupids to get together and convince themselves a Bachmann/Palin ticket would be good
2632 2011-07-16 19:31:54 <Kiba> I don't know a damn thing about cooking and flipping burger and running a restruant
2633 2011-07-16 19:31:57 <copumpkin> Namegduf: proof of infeasibility by counterexample?
2634 2011-07-16 19:32:02 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: or how about meritocracy?
2635 2011-07-16 19:32:04 nhodges_p has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2636 2011-07-16 19:32:16 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: lol
2637 2011-07-16 19:32:22 <Namegduf> copumpkin: Not really, but proof that going about it requires a non-trivial plan as to how to make it work by doing something different to the one that failed
2638 2011-07-16 19:32:36 <copumpkin> Namegduf: the world today is very different from the world 100 years ago
2639 2011-07-16 19:32:37 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: what about benevolent dictatorship?
2640 2011-07-16 19:32:43 <b4epoche> y'all need to watch Dr. Strangelove
2641 2011-07-16 19:32:51 <copumpkin> Namegduf: I'm just kidding about actually wanting communism, but it'd be interesting
2642 2011-07-16 19:32:51 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: trololololol
2643 2011-07-16 19:32:52 <citiz3n> no political system is sustainable
2644 2011-07-16 19:32:53 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2645 2011-07-16 19:32:54 Fireball has joined
2646 2011-07-16 19:32:55 <citiz3n> so just give it up
2647 2011-07-16 19:32:59 Fireball has quit (Changing host)
2648 2011-07-16 19:32:59 Fireball has joined
2649 2011-07-16 19:32:59 <Namegduf> Ah.
2650 2011-07-16 19:33:14 <citiz3n> you aren't going to dream up a political system that works
2651 2011-07-16 19:33:15 <BlueMatt> citiz3n: exactly
2652 2011-07-16 19:33:25 <copumpkin> Namegduf: namely, all the "inefficient allocation" complaints about empty factories and such could actually be handled a lot more efficiently centrally these days
2653 2011-07-16 19:33:31 <copumpkin> now that information travels quickly :)
2654 2011-07-16 19:33:36 * b4epoche thinks an updated Dr. Strangelove is needed
2655 2011-07-16 19:33:43 <citiz3n> if you want to make the world better, help people get back in touch with reality
2656 2011-07-16 19:33:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm not sure deception counts as "smarter"
2657 2011-07-16 19:34:03 <Blitzboom> citiz3n: then we have to get back to the middle ages
2658 2011-07-16 19:34:04 <Namegduf> Benevolent dictatorships are awesome
2659 2011-07-16 19:34:06 bittwist_ has joined
2660 2011-07-16 19:34:11 <citiz3n> the major problem faced by humanity is that most people THINK things are what they truly are not
2661 2011-07-16 19:34:14 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2662 2011-07-16 19:34:16 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: been considering watching that for a while...
2663 2011-07-16 19:34:16 <b4epoche> democracy has always been like this
2664 2011-07-16 19:34:18 <Namegduf> Pity we don't 1) Know a way to construct one 2) Know a way to make one we have last for more than one generation
2665 2011-07-16 19:34:22 <luke-jr> middle ages ++
2666 2011-07-16 19:34:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: deception?
2667 2011-07-16 19:34:34 <citiz3n> for example, people THINK they must be subject to a government because they were born in some certain geographic location
2668 2011-07-16 19:34:40 RazielZ has joined
2669 2011-07-16 19:34:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: deception is pretty much all politicians are good at
2670 2011-07-16 19:34:45 <Kiba> deception is a form of intellgience
2671 2011-07-16 19:34:46 <citiz3n> this notion is very flawed
2672 2011-07-16 19:34:50 <b4epoche> it's just that before people didn't know about all the crap
2673 2011-07-16 19:34:50 <Zagitta> cutiz3n: absolutly agreed
2674 2011-07-16 19:34:57 blzp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2675 2011-07-16 19:34:59 <citiz3n> it's a deception
2676 2011-07-16 19:35:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: sort of, but yea they tend to be really good at that
2677 2011-07-16 19:35:09 <Kiba> can be used to fool nazi looking for Jews or used to fool the populance that jews are evil
2678 2011-07-16 19:35:10 <Namegduf> No, it's application of force outside a social contract.
2679 2011-07-16 19:35:17 <Namegduf> You're born in a place.
2680 2011-07-16 19:35:19 <citiz3n> likewise people think that governments or corporations are real
2681 2011-07-16 19:35:26 blzp has joined
2682 2011-07-16 19:35:28 <citiz3n> they exist only on paper
2683 2011-07-16 19:35:30 <Namegduf> You have no guarantees from the world nor any given to it.
2684 2011-07-16 19:35:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: though they do tend to be really smart people, they just dont seem like it when you see them...
2685 2011-07-16 19:35:34 <WakiMiko> http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/heroin-a-click-away-one-website-sells-illegal-drugs-to-be-shipped-to-your-home
2686 2011-07-16 19:35:37 <citiz3n> i can draw a stickman on paper, does that make him real?
2687 2011-07-16 19:35:40 <WakiMiko> jgarzik - the operator of bitcoins
2688 2011-07-16 19:35:40 <b4epoche> it's like college students... they got far too much time on their hands
2689 2011-07-16 19:35:41 <luke-jr> citiz3n: no, they are real
2690 2011-07-16 19:35:43 <Namegduf> The people with guns immediately say you're in a social contract.
2691 2011-07-16 19:35:45 CheapScotsman has joined
2692 2011-07-16 19:35:50 <Namegduf> They have the guns. You don't.
2693 2011-07-16 19:35:58 <citiz3n> i have lots of guns
2694 2011-07-16 19:36:05 <Kiba> there is no representive of bitcoin
2695 2011-07-16 19:36:06 <luke-jr> Namegduf: who doesn't?
2696 2011-07-16 19:36:07 <citiz3n> big deal
2697 2011-07-16 19:36:07 <Kiba> there is no ceo
2698 2011-07-16 19:36:10 <Kiba> there is no PR man
2699 2011-07-16 19:36:22 <BlueMatt> gavin
2700 2011-07-16 19:36:23 <Blitzboom> Kiba: in reality, there is
2701 2011-07-16 19:36:25 <b4epoche> people today generally have far too much time on their hands
2702 2011-07-16 19:36:26 <WakiMiko> its jgarzik that report clearly says so :P
2703 2011-07-16 19:36:28 <BlueMatt> well, when hes not on vacation
2704 2011-07-16 19:36:31 <citiz3n> luke-jr, a group of people lacks accountability
2705 2011-07-16 19:36:32 <Namegduf> luke-jr: The baby entering the world he insists is not a part of a society just by being born in it
2706 2011-07-16 19:36:35 <Blitzboom> gavin is spokesman
2707 2011-07-16 19:36:35 <b4epoche> to watch Fox News
2708 2011-07-16 19:36:38 <Blitzboom> bruce is spokesman
2709 2011-07-16 19:36:39 <Blitzboom> etc.
2710 2011-07-16 19:36:43 <Namegduf> My point is:
2711 2011-07-16 19:36:49 <Kiba> but they're all "unofficial"
2712 2011-07-16 19:36:53 <citiz3n> people form together in groups to commit crimes to avoid individual singular accountability
2713 2011-07-16 19:36:54 <luke-jr> Namegduf: wrong
2714 2011-07-16 19:36:55 <BlueMatt> well gavin is the only reasonable spokesperson to reasonable people
2715 2011-07-16 19:36:55 <Blitzboom> Kiba: lol, now come on
2716 2011-07-16 19:37:02 <Blitzboom> this is as ridiculous as the paper democracy
2717 2011-07-16 19:37:04 <BlueMatt> Kiba: gavin is the official technical lead
2718 2011-07-16 19:37:11 <Namegduf> If you're not part of society, you're playing by the default rules- rule of the guy most able to assert his will.
2719 2011-07-16 19:37:11 <citiz3n> someone creates a government, hires soldiers/cops/other brutes
2720 2011-07-16 19:37:14 <Blitzboom> bitcoin.org is perceived as the official website
2721 2011-07-16 19:37:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: for certain programs
2722 2011-07-16 19:37:18 <citiz3n> the brutes brutalize people
2723 2011-07-16 19:37:20 <Blitzboom> gavin is perceived as the official leader
2724 2011-07-16 19:37:23 <citiz3n> and there's no accountability
2725 2011-07-16 19:37:27 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: perception != reality
2726 2011-07-16 19:37:35 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: itâs pretty much reality
2727 2011-07-16 19:37:35 <Namegduf> If a guy thus says to a guy not in a society that they must be in the society
2728 2011-07-16 19:37:36 bittwist has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2729 2011-07-16 19:37:43 <Blitzboom> gavin gets the last say afaik
2730 2011-07-16 19:37:43 <citiz3n> the reality of the matter is that the brute - the man or woman committing the violent act (crime)
2731 2011-07-16 19:37:47 <citiz3n> should be accountable
2732 2011-07-16 19:37:47 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: for the bitcoin client that 99% of people use...
2733 2011-07-16 19:37:48 <Namegduf> If the first guy has more force, the latter guy is forced to go along.
2734 2011-07-16 19:37:57 talso has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2735 2011-07-16 19:37:57 <Blitzboom> and itâs gavin who will play benevolent dictator once something is fucked up iin bitcoin
2736 2011-07-16 19:38:00 <citiz3n> they are the real actor
2737 2011-07-16 19:38:00 <Namegduf> It's only when you're in society that you're protected from that.
2738 2011-07-16 19:38:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's a monopoly greater than DeepBit. we'll have to topple it
2739 2011-07-16 19:38:14 TheZimm has joined
2740 2011-07-16 19:38:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: have fun
2741 2011-07-16 19:38:17 TheZimm has quit (Client Quit)
2742 2011-07-16 19:38:18 MJD has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2743 2011-07-16 19:38:19 <jjjx> #bitcoin-politics
2744 2011-07-16 19:38:23 talso has joined
2745 2011-07-16 19:38:30 <Kiba> this chat is too fast for me
2746 2011-07-16 19:39:34 <luke-jr> jgarzik++ for this article :D
2747 2011-07-16 19:39:42 <luke-jr> "While the site claims to operate on anonymity, we found there is a way buyers can easily be tracked."
2748 2011-07-16 19:39:48 <luke-jr> that's the kind of report news should have :D
2749 2011-07-16 19:40:07 <Blitzboom> jgarzik must be proud for distorting reality that much
2750 2011-07-16 19:40:12 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yes it very much is
2751 2011-07-16 19:40:14 <Blitzboom> EVERYTHING 100% PUBLIC!
2752 2011-07-16 19:40:19 <Blitzboom> NOTHING TO SEE HERE!
2753 2011-07-16 19:40:31 <BlueMatt> look whether you guys like it or not, that is what needs to be given to the media
2754 2011-07-16 19:40:44 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: it's not distorted that much
2755 2011-07-16 19:40:47 <Blitzboom> propaganda is needed, BlueMatt?
2756 2011-07-16 19:40:58 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: it really is tracable, and "easy" is relative
2757 2011-07-16 19:40:58 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, what not hookers and blow? damn
2758 2011-07-16 19:40:59 <jjjx> BlueMatt is so right.
2759 2011-07-16 19:41:02 <Blitzboom> yes, certainly the truth is only second choice
2760 2011-07-16 19:41:03 * phantomcircuit goes to cancel something
2761 2011-07-16 19:41:22 <Blitzboom> who cares about the truth when you can fool people for your own benefit
2762 2011-07-16 19:41:24 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: well someone has to fight the perception that bitcoin is illegal
2763 2011-07-16 19:41:27 <BlueMatt> and is ideal for illegal things
2764 2011-07-16 19:41:33 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: cash is illegal?
2765 2011-07-16 19:41:33 <copumpkin> it is ideal for illegal things
2766 2011-07-16 19:41:37 <BlueMatt> and lets face it, the media wont listen to "its just as bad as cash"
2767 2011-07-16 19:41:41 <copumpkin> doesn't mean that it's only for illegal things
2768 2011-07-16 19:41:49 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: its no more ideal than cash
2769 2011-07-16 19:41:57 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: sure
2770 2011-07-16 19:41:58 <BlueMatt> in fact, probably less so
2771 2011-07-16 19:42:03 <BlueMatt> smaller market, etc
2772 2011-07-16 19:42:22 EPiSKiNG has quit ()
2773 2011-07-16 19:42:40 <BlueMatt> and look, if the average person just goes to buy something on silk road its not hard to track them
2774 2011-07-16 19:42:40 <luke-jr> and tracable
2775 2011-07-16 19:42:42 <jjjx> BlueMatt: But then again, it is.
2776 2011-07-16 19:42:42 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Who cares? If the underground/illegal market start to migrate to Bitcoin, it won't be any less valuable.
2777 2011-07-16 19:42:42 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Quite the opposite; that's a MASSIVE economy right there. :-)
2778 2011-07-16 19:42:44 <BlueMatt> if someone works hard, ok
2779 2011-07-16 19:42:48 <luke-jr> you can't trace cash nearly as easily as bitcoins
2780 2011-07-16 19:43:07 <jjjx> BlueMatt: You'll have to prove that to me (ease of tracing Silk Road purchases) :)
2781 2011-07-16 19:43:21 <BlueMatt> jjjx: mtgox complies with regulations in .jp
2782 2011-07-16 19:43:25 <BlueMatt> and its not hard to trace coins
2783 2011-07-16 19:43:34 MJD has joined
2784 2011-07-16 19:43:36 <Blitzboom> jjjx: indeed
2785 2011-07-16 19:43:43 <Namegduf> I don't understand the calls to shut Silk Road down.
2786 2011-07-16 19:43:46 <gmaxwell> vs cash bitcoin Leaves more evidence, smaller market, much harder to launder (mostly due to the former) .. the only real pro is electronic distribution.
2787 2011-07-16 19:43:48 <BlueMatt> nor is it hard for a govt to trace back mail if someone starts sending out a ton of drugs
2788 2011-07-16 19:43:49 <Blitzboom> silk road is a natural experiment regarding bitcoinâs potential anonymity
2789 2011-07-16 19:43:49 <Namegduf> It's basically a honeypot dream
2790 2011-07-16 19:43:49 <b4epoche> you need to be tracing 'stuff', not money
2791 2011-07-16 19:43:59 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Go ahead and show me how easy it is to trace a Silk Road purchase. I have not yet seen anyone prove that it is.
2792 2011-07-16 19:44:01 <Namegduf> 1) Sell drugs
2793 2011-07-16 19:44:04 <Namegduf> 2) Raid addresses
2794 2011-07-16 19:44:05 <Zagitta> not to mention that a smart laywer could use your stored wallet as evidence of you having had the coins against you
2795 2011-07-16 19:44:19 <BlueMatt> jjjx: compare it to cash and read the logs of the past like 1 minute
2796 2011-07-16 19:44:25 <jjjx> Namegduf: The raids are useless -- buyers? Come on.
2797 2011-07-16 19:44:30 <BlueMatt> compared to a bank, no you are right
2798 2011-07-16 19:44:38 <BlueMatt> but who would do a drug deal with a credit card?
2799 2011-07-16 19:45:00 <Namegduf> jjjx: Fair point.
2800 2011-07-16 19:45:04 <b4epoche> how does silk road 'ship' stuff?
2801 2011-07-16 19:45:05 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Since Silk Road uses a unique receiving address every time, operating within Tor, I don't see what you mean.
2802 2011-07-16 19:45:30 <jjjx> b4epoche: The sellers ship stuff. Using regular post.
2803 2011-07-16 19:45:30 <BlueMatt> jjjx: <b4epoche> how does silk road 'ship' stuff?
2804 2011-07-16 19:45:43 <BlueMatt> and you think the govt cant trace back post if they have the desire?
2805 2011-07-16 19:45:45 <Blitzboom> hey Kiba
2806 2011-07-16 19:45:46 <BlueMatt> I mean come on
2807 2011-07-16 19:45:49 <gmaxwell> jjjx: Bluematt has no reason to do soâ nothing to prove to you. You don't want to believe it, fine. You have been warned.
2808 2011-07-16 19:45:50 <BlueMatt> a private investigator can do that
2809 2011-07-16 19:45:56 <luke-jr> XD
2810 2011-07-16 19:46:10 <Blitzboom> how do you libertarians want to force people not to coerce you with a government?
2811 2011-07-16 19:46:14 <Blitzboom> how does that work?
2812 2011-07-16 19:46:18 <jjjx> b4epoche: Maybe they can. That's different than tracing the transaction though.
2813 2011-07-16 19:46:21 <Namegduf> BlueMatt: Post can be dropped off anonymously
2814 2011-07-16 19:46:24 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: libertarianism is fail
2815 2011-07-16 19:46:28 <jjjx> Sorry, that was to BlueMatt.
2816 2011-07-16 19:46:29 <Namegduf> BlueMatt: Just dump it in a mail box somewhere
2817 2011-07-16 19:46:30 Ramokk has quit ()
2818 2011-07-16 19:46:31 <BlueMatt> jjjx: ever heard of blockexplorer.com
2819 2011-07-16 19:46:39 <b4epoche> jjjx: see my comment about tracking /stuff/
2820 2011-07-16 19:46:40 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: i just want to understand how they imagine the equilibrium of power
2821 2011-07-16 19:46:49 <BlueMatt> Namegduf: not if you are sending a ton of drugs out on a daily basis...
2822 2011-07-16 19:46:51 <b4epoche> law enforcement aren't idiots
2823 2011-07-16 19:47:00 <Namegduf> BlueMatt: Yeah, that'd be an issue.
2824 2011-07-16 19:47:06 <BlueMatt> Namegduf: no one has a desire to trace some lsd seller whos selling almost nothing through silk road
2825 2011-07-16 19:47:20 <BlueMatt> just as much as the desire to trace that kid at the end of the block who is doing it in person
2826 2011-07-16 19:47:25 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Like I said... Unique receiving address every time for Silk Road. I know Block Explorer... I'm just saying, show me. Put this topic to rest once and for all.
2827 2011-07-16 19:47:37 <b4epoche> you just need to start a rumor that someone has developed a 'sniffer'
2828 2011-07-16 19:47:50 <gmaxwell> jjjx: dur, "Unique receiving address" isn't as meaningful as you seem to think it is.
2829 2011-07-16 19:47:51 <BlueMatt> jjjx: when you buy the bitcoins its not hard for you to be traced, after that...
2830 2011-07-16 19:47:51 huk has joined
2831 2011-07-16 19:48:02 <jjjx> For Silk Road, I agree that the post could -possibly- be used to trace the seller. But the buyer is almost not at risk at all if they take the appropriate precautions (never signing for anything, primarily)
2832 2011-07-16 19:48:14 <Namegduf> Um
2833 2011-07-16 19:48:18 <BlueMatt> jjjx: lolwut?
2834 2011-07-16 19:48:26 <Namegduf> The buyer's address has been given to the seller
2835 2011-07-16 19:48:35 <jjjx> Namegduf: Yes. So what?
2836 2011-07-16 19:48:48 <BlueMatt> and you think the law enforcement cant go on silk road and "sell drugs"
2837 2011-07-16 19:48:49 <jjjx> There's total deniability in that; it can't be proven WHO made the order, or that there was any transaction.
2838 2011-07-16 19:48:50 <Namegduf> The buyer's safety entirely relies on the government not bothering to honeytrap, the seller not getting caught...
2839 2011-07-16 19:48:52 <BlueMatt> jjjx: and how did you buy it?
2840 2011-07-16 19:48:56 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Of course they can.
2841 2011-07-16 19:48:57 <b4epoche> so when are Silk Road stings going to start?
2842 2011-07-16 19:49:04 <gmaxwell> jjjx: There are a couple of pretty straight forward ways to trace the coin. For example, You make payments into silkroad. You don't even spend them. Silkroads wallet eventually includes them in outputs paying other people. You have mtgox report the names of all the people who spend the 'marked' coins.
2843 2011-07-16 19:49:05 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2844 2011-07-16 19:49:08 <BlueMatt> jjjx: so how do you claim that the buyer cant be traced?
2845 2011-07-16 19:49:33 <BlueMatt> jjjx: its really easy to trace coins back and chances are they hit mtgox at some point
2846 2011-07-16 19:49:37 <jjjx> gmaxwell: Putting your coins into Silk Road does not constitute a felony.
2847 2011-07-16 19:49:42 <jjjx> gmaxwell: Using them to buy drugs does.
2848 2011-07-16 19:49:44 <BlueMatt> and mtgox complies with all regulations including law enforcement requests
2849 2011-07-16 19:49:49 <Namegduf> It constitutes probable cause to bust down your door
2850 2011-07-16 19:49:54 <gmaxwell> jjjx: You've failed to understand what I said. Read it again.
2851 2011-07-16 19:50:06 <Namegduf> And , well, you probably have other evidence.
2852 2011-07-16 19:50:08 <BlueMatt> jjjx: putting them into silk road is enough evidence in court that you were buying drugs for a conviction
2853 2011-07-16 19:50:12 <jjjx> gmaxwell: I completely understand what you just said -- I just disagree that this is consequential.
2854 2011-07-16 19:50:13 <Namegduf> If not, maybe you're safe. Maybe.
2855 2011-07-16 19:50:27 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Silk Road sells many things besides drugs.
2856 2011-07-16 19:50:38 <gmaxwell> Or perhaps you didn't? Once you've got a list of names you then go and get warrants based on that.
2857 2011-07-16 19:50:39 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Realistically, you're probably right -- it would be evidence at least.
2858 2011-07-16 19:50:49 <jjjx> BlueMatt: But it could not be argued concretely in my opinion.
2859 2011-07-16 19:51:14 <BlueMatt> look, in theory, you can argue that it wasnt you how ever much you want, but at the end of the day, bitcoin is not ideal for buying drugs, nor is the internet
2860 2011-07-16 19:51:19 <jjjx> And besides, this is again missing the point: The SELLERS are the point, which the buyer has no awareness of whatsoever.
2861 2011-07-16 19:51:21 skeledrew1 has joined
2862 2011-07-16 19:51:27 <BlueMatt> the ideal way is through that kid at the end of your street who you trust
2863 2011-07-16 19:51:33 <gmaxwell> Not many thing. Silk road sells drugs and drug paraphernaliaâ you'd be stupid to sell anything else there beause the merchant accounts are now expensive.
2864 2011-07-16 19:51:34 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Disagree completely.
2865 2011-07-16 19:51:40 <Blitzboom> i also disagree
2866 2011-07-16 19:51:48 <BlueMatt> silk road is not good, and is worse in terms of getting caught than anything else
2867 2011-07-16 19:51:50 <Blitzboom> itâs absolutely not ideal to buy on the street
2868 2011-07-16 19:52:09 <Blitzboom> itâs a) uncomfortable, b) mostly shit quality and c) can be dangerous
2869 2011-07-16 19:52:11 <b4epoche> just start your own damn meth lab and/or grow op
2870 2011-07-16 19:52:15 <Blitzboom> well, depends on who you know
2871 2011-07-16 19:52:26 <Blitzboom> but if you donât, you have a problem
2872 2011-07-16 19:52:31 <jjjx> Blitzboom is right.
2873 2011-07-16 19:52:38 <Blitzboom> and thatâs why silk road is great
2874 2011-07-16 19:53:03 <BlueMatt> in any case, Im done discussing this, bitcoin is in no way more ideal to buy drugs than cash from an anonymity perspective and can be traced much easier.
2875 2011-07-16 19:53:07 <b4epoche> kinda like not having to rent porn at the video store, eh?
2876 2011-07-16 19:53:08 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: do you happen to have statistics?
2877 2011-07-16 19:53:08 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2878 2011-07-16 19:53:18 <jjjx> BlueMatt/gmaxwell, you guys might be right in the end... But I really think that the brilliance of Silk Road is that it protects sellers and buyers both.
2879 2011-07-16 19:53:18 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: on what?
2880 2011-07-16 19:53:33 <BlueMatt> jjjx: not really...but Im done anyway...
2881 2011-07-16 19:53:34 <Blitzboom> on how many people are caught with silk road vs. buying from dealers
2882 2011-07-16 19:53:48 <BlueMatt> silk road is still too small for anyone to care
2883 2011-07-16 19:53:57 <jjjx> I would also be interested in some facts there.
2884 2011-07-16 19:54:00 <jjjx> BlueMatt: True.
2885 2011-07-16 19:54:04 nus has joined
2886 2011-07-16 19:54:06 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: none of those differences are related to btc vs cash however. As a form of payment cash is really good for illegal transactions except for the whole need for physical transfer.
2887 2011-07-16 19:54:14 <BlueMatt> plus Id very much bet anyone selling on silk road also sells in person
2888 2011-07-16 19:54:15 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Although the authorities DO care, because this sets a precedent.
2889 2011-07-16 19:54:24 <BlueMatt> so its impossible to tell what they got caught for
2890 2011-07-16 19:54:29 <jjjx> BlueMatt: An "unchecked" Silk Road erodes the perception of law enforcement.
2891 2011-07-16 19:54:29 <Blitzboom> gmaxwell: the whole need for physical transfer is a major disadvantage
2892 2011-07-16 19:54:40 <Blitzboom> because it makes anonimity difficult
2893 2011-07-16 19:54:42 <gmaxwell> Blitzboom: yes, but the drugs need phsical transfer too.
2894 2011-07-16 19:54:59 <b4epoche> silk road will go down... maybe not under existing laws but new ones
2895 2011-07-16 19:54:59 <Blitzboom> dunno about you, but i download my drugs
2896 2011-07-16 19:55:29 <b4epoche> Blitzboom: in the form of porn?
2897 2011-07-16 19:55:31 <Blitzboom> i hope silk road will prevail and piss in the face of the war on drugs
2898 2011-07-16 19:55:35 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: lol
2899 2011-07-16 19:55:51 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: I hope your wrong, I want to keep developing on bitcoin
2900 2011-07-16 19:56:02 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: why would that conflict?
2901 2011-07-16 19:56:23 <b4epoche> hard drugs /need/ to be illegal.
2902 2011-07-16 19:56:25 <jjjx> I think Silk Road is one of the best chances that Bitcoin has of being successful -- or rather, the precedent it sets.
2903 2011-07-16 19:56:34 <gmaxwell> ugh. Thats so not true.
2904 2011-07-16 19:56:36 <Blitzboom> b4epoche: i agree. alcohol needs to be illegalized
2905 2011-07-16 19:56:39 <jjjx> I for one want Bitcoin to be madly explosive in the underground economy.
2906 2011-07-16 19:56:43 <BlueMatt> lol you guys are joking right
2907 2011-07-16 19:56:49 <BlueMatt> jjjx: trololololol
2908 2011-07-16 19:56:55 <Blitzboom> jjjx: agreed 100%
2909 2011-07-16 19:57:00 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is fairly vulnerable to legal attack. If silkroad is the most prominant use of bitcoin, bitcoin will be screwed.
2910 2011-07-16 19:57:03 <Blitzboom> and i never understood why people saw it differently
2911 2011-07-16 19:57:06 <b4epoche> any drug that's addictive and debilitating needs to be illegal
2912 2011-07-16 19:57:27 <jjjx> b4epoche: Sugar?
2913 2011-07-16 19:57:39 <b4epoche> wtf?
2914 2011-07-16 19:57:42 <BlueMatt> you guys realize if bitcoin is made illegal in the us (which it will be if silk road becomes the primary use of it) most of the development on it will stop?
2915 2011-07-16 19:57:43 <Blitzboom> sugar is addictive
2916 2011-07-16 19:57:46 <Blitzboom> coffein too
2917 2011-07-16 19:57:57 <jjjx> Yes, caffeine.
2918 2011-07-16 19:58:02 <b4epoche> debilitating?
2919 2011-07-16 19:58:07 <Blitzboom> and glutumate
2920 2011-07-16 19:58:07 <b4epoche> maybe in the long, long term
2921 2011-07-16 19:58:15 <jjjx> b4epoche: Noticed all the overweight people with health problems in the US?
2922 2011-07-16 19:58:20 liltoe has joined
2923 2011-07-16 19:58:22 <Blitzboom> and iâve read that salt is addictive, too
2924 2011-07-16 19:58:27 <jjjx> b4epoche: It's not because of heroin.
2925 2011-07-16 19:58:30 <BlueMatt> ok, thats enough on this topic, seriously
2926 2011-07-16 19:58:40 <Blitzboom> b4epoche: do you want to ban alcohol?
2927 2011-07-16 19:58:45 <b4epoche> yea, I'm sorry I brought that up...
2928 2011-07-16 19:58:48 <Blitzboom> because itâs one of the hardest drugs known to man
2929 2011-07-16 19:58:52 <b4epoche> alcohol isn't addictive (to most)
2930 2011-07-16 19:59:00 <Blitzboom> nicotine?
2931 2011-07-16 19:59:05 <BlueMatt> at some point you have to decide which drug is the worst and most addictive and cut that off
2932 2011-07-16 19:59:07 <jjjx> b4epoche: Neither is cannabis or ecstasy or LSD.
2933 2011-07-16 19:59:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what is the status of the key import/export rpcs?
2934 2011-07-16 19:59:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: CBitcoinAddress first
2935 2011-07-16 19:59:27 <WakiMiko> if people want to destroy their life why not let them
2936 2011-07-16 19:59:33 * b4epoche never mentioned cannabis, ectasy or LSD
2937 2011-07-16 19:59:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: afaik the code is ready to merge from sipa, but I dont think gavin or jgarzik have had time to look it over yet
2938 2011-07-16 19:59:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Whats CBitcoinAddress?
2939 2011-07-16 20:00:09 <Blitzboom> b4epoche: what about nicotine? one of the most addictive drugs known to man
2940 2011-07-16 20:00:13 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, speak for yourself...
2941 2011-07-16 20:00:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/403
2942 2011-07-16 20:00:18 <Blitzboom> nicotine most addictive, alcohol must destructive
2943 2011-07-16 20:00:22 <Blitzboom> perfect combination
2944 2011-07-16 20:00:33 <b4epoche> Blitzboom: but nicotine isn't short-term debilitating
2945 2011-07-16 20:00:39 <jjjx> Blitzboom: It's all about culture and what is status quo.
2946 2011-07-16 20:00:42 <phantomcircuit> nicotine isn't the most addictive
2947 2011-07-16 20:00:44 <phantomcircuit> heroin is
2948 2011-07-16 20:00:47 <Blitzboom> phantomcircuit: one of the most
2949 2011-07-16 20:00:47 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: Im pointing out the opinion of others, it doesnt strictly represent my opinions
2950 2011-07-16 20:00:48 <Blitzboom> i said
2951 2011-07-16 20:00:50 * b4epoche would be for a ban on cigarettes tho
2952 2011-07-16 20:00:55 <BlueMatt> ok guys, thats enough talk of drugs...can we stop now?
2953 2011-07-16 20:01:05 <phantomcircuit> lol
2954 2011-07-16 20:01:08 <phantomcircuit> i guess
2955 2011-07-16 20:01:08 <WakiMiko> yeah lets talk about botnets instead
2956 2011-07-16 20:01:11 <WakiMiko> :P
2957 2011-07-16 20:01:15 <BlueMatt> god no
2958 2011-07-16 20:01:19 <Blitzboom> i do run google chrome
2959 2011-07-16 20:01:25 <BlueMatt> I love chrome
2960 2011-07-16 20:01:25 <jjjx> phantomcircuit: Having done heroin and previously been addicted to cigarettes, I disagree.
2961 2011-07-16 20:01:53 <Blitzboom> jjjx: thatâs because you suffer from short-term debilitation
2962 2011-07-16 20:01:54 <WakiMiko> bitcoins should be banned
2963 2011-07-16 20:01:56 <Blitzboom> obviously
2964 2011-07-16 20:01:57 <b4epoche> I'm sure the addictiveness depends on each person's level of stupidity
2965 2011-07-16 20:02:01 <WakiMiko> they are too adictive
2966 2011-07-16 20:02:11 <jjjx> :-)
2967 2011-07-16 20:02:13 <BlueMatt> ok guys, thats enough talk of drugs...can we stop now?
2968 2011-07-16 20:02:20 <phantomcircuit> MORE COCA
2969 2011-07-16 20:02:22 <Blitzboom> why?
2970 2011-07-16 20:02:22 <phantomcircuit> A COLA
2971 2011-07-16 20:02:26 <jjjx> Yes, Why? :)
2972 2011-07-16 20:02:37 <Blitzboom> we are having a civil discussion
2973 2011-07-16 20:02:37 <jjjx> Does it make you uncomfortable BlueMatt?
2974 2011-07-16 20:02:38 <BlueMatt> because its very off topic?
2975 2011-07-16 20:02:47 <gmaxwell> Yes, jesus.
2976 2011-07-16 20:02:51 <BlueMatt> it has moved from a discussion of bitcoin's involvement in stuff, to just other stuff
2977 2011-07-16 20:02:57 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Everything that's been discussed since I arrived in here has been OT... This is #bitcoin-dev
2978 2011-07-16 20:02:59 * b4epoche starts #bitcoin-anonymous
2979 2011-07-16 20:02:59 <gmaxwell> The OT talk in here makes it very hard for me to follow the actual development discussion.
2980 2011-07-16 20:03:12 <Blitzboom> yeah, itâs weird when people just begin to discuss things freely
2981 2011-07-16 20:03:14 <BlueMatt> jjjx: well atleast that stuff was related to bitcoin...
2982 2011-07-16 20:03:15 <Blitzboom> wtf is up with that
2983 2011-07-16 20:03:23 <gmaxwell> I come back from sleeping and there are a 100 pages of crap with 30 lines of development mixed in.
2984 2011-07-16 20:03:25 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Alright, fair enough. I'll give it up.
2985 2011-07-16 20:03:39 <gmaxwell> jjjx: Blitzboom: go to #bitcoin
2986 2011-07-16 20:03:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats why I dont read scrollback unless it has my name
2987 2011-07-16 20:03:59 <BlueMatt> if its important its probably on the list
2988 2011-07-16 20:06:09 <b4epoche> did you know drinking distilled water can kill you?
2989 2011-07-16 20:06:12 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2990 2011-07-16 20:06:18 <BlueMatt> and he quits...
2991 2011-07-16 20:06:33 <jjjx> Hey man, now nobody's talking.
2992 2011-07-16 20:06:45 <jjjx> Maybe we should talk about Silk Road again?
2993 2011-07-16 20:06:53 <phantomcircuit> how about we talk about this
2994 2011-07-16 20:07:04 <BlueMatt> good
2995 2011-07-16 20:07:08 <jjjx> phantomcircuit: Distilled water?
2996 2011-07-16 20:07:17 MacRohard has joined
2997 2011-07-16 20:07:18 <BlueMatt> if its not dev related, this chan should be silent ;)
2998 2011-07-16 20:07:33 <BlueMatt> or atleast bitcoin related
2999 2011-07-16 20:07:34 <phantomcircuit> if you try to place an order you cant cover should it reject or attempt to fill as best you can
3000 2011-07-16 20:07:52 <jjjx> phantomcircuit: Can't cover?
3001 2011-07-16 20:08:09 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: how long have you been deciding on this issue?
3002 2011-07-16 20:08:13 <BlueMatt> just pick one and go
3003 2011-07-16 20:08:14 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3004 2011-07-16 20:08:14 <phantomcircuit> jjjx, you try and place SELL 50 BTCGBP @ 10.0 but you only have 49 BTC
3005 2011-07-16 20:08:29 <jjjx> Oh, about exchanges... :-)
3006 2011-07-16 20:08:29 <luke-jr> â¦
3007 2011-07-16 20:08:31 <Namegduf> Reject
3008 2011-07-16 20:08:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i try to ask these questions on the forum with polls but they just get pushed the the last page in like 2 minutes
3009 2011-07-16 20:08:38 <luke-jr> wtf is BTCGBP?
3010 2011-07-16 20:08:42 <Namegduf> If you issue such an order, a mistake has been made
3011 2011-07-16 20:08:51 <jjjx> luke-jr: Presumably a British Pound Sterling exchange?
3012 2011-07-16 20:08:51 <Namegduf> Mistakes in exchanges are costly
3013 2011-07-16 20:08:55 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the correct way to quote GBP per BTC ;)
3014 2011-07-16 20:09:06 <jjjx> Or that.
3015 2011-07-16 20:09:17 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: since when?
3016 2011-07-16 20:09:26 <BlueMatt> BTC/GBP would be correct
3017 2011-07-16 20:09:28 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: s/correct/nonsensical/
3018 2011-07-16 20:09:43 molecular has joined
3019 2011-07-16 20:09:44 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yes it is retarded but it's the accepted standard
3020 2011-07-16 20:09:50 <BlueMatt> lolwut
3021 2011-07-16 20:09:52 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: standard where?
3022 2011-07-16 20:09:58 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the / is optional and confusing for people who dont know
3023 2011-07-16 20:10:02 <BlueMatt> accepted standard in the rest of the world is BTC/GBP
3024 2011-07-16 20:10:03 <MrSam> hmm
3025 2011-07-16 20:10:07 <MrSam> triplemining on a fucking roll here
3026 2011-07-16 20:10:19 <luke-jr> triplemining = annoying :P
3027 2011-07-16 20:10:19 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is how quotes are made on every other site Ive ever seen
3028 2011-07-16 20:10:21 erus` has joined
3029 2011-07-16 20:10:22 <BlueMatt> (not bitcoin sites)
3030 2011-07-16 20:10:30 <IO-> it is annoying
3031 2011-07-16 20:10:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: they quote BTC prices? O.o
3032 2011-07-16 20:10:44 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i've seen both BASE/QUOTE BASEQUOTE BASE:QUOTE
3033 2011-07-16 20:10:57 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: both = 2; you just said 3
3034 2011-07-16 20:11:09 <phantomcircuit> yeah i forgot about the last one until i typed it
3035 2011-07-16 20:11:14 <phantomcircuit> brains are funny things
3036 2011-07-16 20:11:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I mean non-bitcoin anything
3037 2011-07-16 20:12:03 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: The most common, by far, is BASE?QUOTE
3038 2011-07-16 20:12:09 <BlueMatt> s/?///
3039 2011-07-16 20:12:16 <BlueMatt> s|?|/|
3040 2011-07-16 20:12:18 <BlueMatt> there
3041 2011-07-16 20:12:27 <phantomcircuit> lol
3042 2011-07-16 20:12:32 <phantomcircuit> s/?/\//
3043 2011-07-16 20:12:36 <BlueMatt> or, tahts the most common Ive see
3044 2011-07-16 20:12:37 <BlueMatt> n
3045 2011-07-16 20:12:51 <jjjx> So how many people are working on the official client?
3046 2011-07-16 20:12:54 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: you do realize | is also valid (and makes stuff look better)
3047 2011-07-16 20:13:00 <jjjx> And are there a lot of misc patches that come in?
3048 2011-07-16 20:13:08 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yes i do
3049 2011-07-16 20:13:18 <BlueMatt> jjjx: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls
3050 2011-07-16 20:13:41 <jjjx> Pull request is not a ... Checkout?
3051 2011-07-16 20:13:55 <BlueMatt> ???
3052 2011-07-16 20:13:57 discHead has quit (Quit: discHead)
3053 2011-07-16 20:14:03 <jjjx> BlueMatt: I'm not familiar with GitHub
3054 2011-07-16 20:14:17 <BlueMatt> pull is a pull request
3055 2011-07-16 20:14:27 <BlueMatt> ie my code is good, pull it please
3056 2011-07-16 20:14:30 <jjjx> I don't know what that is. It sounds like a checkout.
3057 2011-07-16 20:14:31 <jjjx> Ah.
3058 2011-07-16 20:14:32 <jjjx> OK!
3059 2011-07-16 20:14:42 <BlueMatt> or more like "my code is pretty good, please comment and eventually pull"
3060 2011-07-16 20:15:06 <luke-jr> jjjx: there is no such thing as official
3061 2011-07-16 20:15:13 <jjjx> And how about forks of the official client? Anything interesting or active?
3062 2011-07-16 20:15:24 <jjjx> luke-jr: Of course, of course...
3063 2011-07-16 20:15:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: most of those pull requests I've looked at aren't good
3064 2011-07-16 20:15:35 <BlueMatt> theres a qt port, which should be pulled at some point not to far in the future...
3065 2011-07-16 20:15:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well the writer thinks they are good
3066 2011-07-16 20:15:47 <BlueMatt> ...
3067 2011-07-16 20:15:56 <BlueMatt> theres also a cocoa port
3068 2011-07-16 20:16:07 <BlueMatt> but theres nothing really exiting in terms of forks aside from those
3069 2011-07-16 20:16:13 <luke-jr> cocoa has caffeine. it should be illegal.
3070 2011-07-16 20:16:19 <BlueMatt> ...
3071 2011-07-16 20:16:23 <luke-jr> jjjx: GitHub doesn't use correct terminology.
3072 2011-07-16 20:16:30 <luke-jr> jjjx: those are branch merge requests, not forks
3073 2011-07-16 20:16:42 <jjjx> Heh, strange.
3074 2011-07-16 20:16:51 <jjjx> Is that "git" terminology, or something GitHub made up?
3075 2011-07-16 20:16:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that was a joke btw
3076 2011-07-16 20:16:56 <BlueMatt> gitish
3077 2011-07-16 20:16:59 <luke-jr> jjjx: GitHub
3078 2011-07-16 20:17:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I know
3079 2011-07-16 20:17:38 <luke-jr> jjjx: everywhere else, fork = intended to be a new "upstream", not merged with the original
3080 2011-07-16 20:17:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well when you fork in github, it could very well mean that
3081 2011-07-16 20:18:00 <BlueMatt> it just doesnt have to
3082 2011-07-16 20:18:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm aware. The term for that is "branch".
3083 2011-07-16 20:18:26 talso has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3084 2011-07-16 20:18:35 <BlueMatt> no its not
3085 2011-07-16 20:18:42 <BlueMatt> that is when you make a branch on your tree
3086 2011-07-16 20:18:47 Ramokk has joined
3087 2011-07-16 20:18:51 <luke-jr> yes it isâ¦
3088 2011-07-16 20:18:59 <BlueMatt> github tends to use the same exact terms as git command line itself uses
3089 2011-07-16 20:19:04 <luke-jr> branches are branches, no matter what repository they live in
3090 2011-07-16 20:19:16 <luke-jr> git command line doesn't use "fork"
3091 2011-07-16 20:19:20 <BlueMatt> meh, doesnt really matter anyway...
3092 2011-07-16 20:19:27 <WakiMiko> well since git is decentralized, you could argue that every clone is a fork, and every dev works on his own fork
3093 2011-07-16 20:19:40 * luke-jr notes "git branch --all" shows all branches-- local or remote
3094 2011-07-16 20:19:55 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: no, because the difference between a branch and a fork is the *intention* of it
3095 2011-07-16 20:20:22 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: whether one intends to create a new competing product (a fork), or contribute to the original one (just a branch)
3096 2011-07-16 20:20:34 * BlueMatt defines fork the same way github does, even if luke disagrees
3097 2011-07-16 20:20:36 <Kiba> branch are useless?
3098 2011-07-16 20:20:45 <WakiMiko> no branches are very useful
3099 2011-07-16 20:20:47 <Kiba> hersey!
3100 2011-07-16 20:20:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: fine, disagree with the whole world :P
3101 2011-07-16 20:20:51 <Kiba> branches are very useful
3102 2011-07-16 20:20:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: Im quite good at that
3103 2011-07-16 20:21:40 <Namegduf> I would say that the part making it a fork, not a branch
3104 2011-07-16 20:21:48 <Namegduf> Is that it is not run by the same people
3105 2011-07-16 20:21:56 <Namegduf> IMO
3106 2011-07-16 20:22:20 <Namegduf> Even if the fork was transient, it still was briefly operated and administrated by people outside the original project.
3107 2011-07-16 20:22:36 <WakiMiko> all my local branches are only run by me
3108 2011-07-16 20:22:40 <WakiMiko> now what
3109 2011-07-16 20:22:48 <WakiMiko> in any case it doesnt matter
3110 2011-07-16 20:22:59 <Namegduf> By that definition, most github forks are forks although they don't really have to be.
3111 2011-07-16 20:23:02 MC-Eeepc has joined
3112 2011-07-16 20:23:17 <gim> modifying the headers layout a little bit, bitcoin compilation is now 15 seconds faster
3113 2011-07-16 20:23:26 <gim> down to "just" 4 min
3114 2011-07-16 20:23:37 <prof7bit> I made a googlecode project for my bitcoin experiments: http://code.google.com/p/fpbitcoin/
3115 2011-07-16 20:23:42 <jjjx> What has Gavin developed besides Bitcoin?
3116 2011-07-16 20:23:47 <BlueMatt> 4 min damn thats slow, what are you on?
3117 2011-07-16 20:23:51 <prof7bit> (it compiles in 2 seconds)
3118 2011-07-16 20:23:56 <luke-jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(software_development)
3119 2011-07-16 20:24:01 <Kiba> clearcoin
3120 2011-07-16 20:24:09 <jjjx> Kiba: Anything non-Bitcoin related?
3121 2011-07-16 20:24:14 <Kiba> but apperently, bitcoin is his full time job
3122 2011-07-16 20:24:35 <Kiba> wonders how gavin is able to work on bitcoin without getting paid?
3123 2011-07-16 20:24:37 <jjjx> Kiba: Who pays him?
3124 2011-07-16 20:24:38 <jjjx> Indeed
3125 2011-07-16 20:24:41 <BlueMatt> his wife
3126 2011-07-16 20:24:48 <jjjx> Pretty nice
3127 2011-07-16 20:24:53 <BlueMatt> jjjx: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/gavin-andresen/1/797/698
3128 2011-07-16 20:24:53 <gim> BlueMatt: I was using just one core to compare accurately
3129 2011-07-16 20:24:56 <prof7bit> 4 minutes is fast for the official bitcoin client. the last time i tried it was someting like 60 minutes
3130 2011-07-16 20:24:59 <Kiba> why would his wife support gavin's effort?
3131 2011-07-16 20:25:00 <BlueMatt> gim: ah
3132 2011-07-16 20:25:09 <BlueMatt> Kiba: because he has a loving and supporting wife?
3133 2011-07-16 20:25:11 <luke-jr> Kiba: she's Satoshi
3134 2011-07-16 20:25:17 <Diablo-D3> satoshi is a she?
3135 2011-07-16 20:25:17 kabo69 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3136 2011-07-16 20:25:18 <BlueMatt> iirc shes a prof somewhere
3137 2011-07-16 20:25:24 * Diablo-D3 ponders
3138 2011-07-16 20:25:25 <Kiba> didn't she said Bitcoin is pretend money?
3139 2011-07-16 20:25:27 <Diablo-D3> you know, that makes sense
3140 2011-07-16 20:25:31 <jjjx> Kiba: Yeah why would a wife support her husband
3141 2011-07-16 20:25:50 <Kiba> jjjx: I thought wife don't like deadbeat husbands
3142 2011-07-16 20:25:58 <BlueMatt> gavin was "Founder/CTO at Wasabi Software" maybe he is satoshi...
3143 2011-07-16 20:25:59 kabo69 has joined
3144 2011-07-16 20:26:00 <jjjx> Kiba: He doesn't seem like a deadbeat.
3145 2011-07-16 20:26:05 <jjjx> Kiba: Don't know the guy personally though
3146 2011-07-16 20:26:07 <IO-> does the testnet have the same # of blocks?
3147 2011-07-16 20:26:11 <BlueMatt> IO-: no
3148 2011-07-16 20:26:20 <IO-> ok
3149 2011-07-16 20:26:31 <Kiba> so...
3150 2011-07-16 20:26:32 <WakiMiko> IO-: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
3151 2011-07-16 20:26:36 <Kiba> who paid him? The CIA?
3152 2011-07-16 20:26:36 <IO-> thanks
3153 2011-07-16 20:27:01 evelyn66 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3154 2011-07-16 20:27:01 * BlueMatt thinks the cia made bitcoin to create a traceable currency so they can track terrorists
3155 2011-07-16 20:27:41 <Kiba> or maybe a way to transfer money for their drug selling operation
3156 2011-07-16 20:27:48 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3157 2011-07-16 20:28:10 <gim> BlueMatt: hehe, I agree
3158 2011-07-16 20:28:14 molecular has joined
3159 2011-07-16 20:28:27 <Kiba> Osama Bin Laden don't trust cryptography
3160 2011-07-16 20:28:32 <Kiba> that is the reason why he got killed
3161 2011-07-16 20:28:34 <jjjx> Kiba: Did you say DRUGS?
3162 2011-07-16 20:28:40 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3163 2011-07-16 20:28:47 <Kiba> I heard the CIA is a drug selling agency
3164 2011-07-16 20:28:58 molecular has joined
3165 2011-07-16 20:29:01 <BlueMatt> no thats the nsa
3166 2011-07-16 20:29:05 <IO-> i heard crack tastes like fruit loops
3167 2011-07-16 20:29:25 <jjjx> Kiba: According to Confessions of an Economic Hitman, that seems to be at least partially true.
3168 2011-07-16 20:29:59 <jjjx> IO-: Crack tastes awful. But then again, so do fruit loops...
3169 2011-07-16 20:30:20 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: depends on the brand
3170 2011-07-16 20:30:40 <Diablo-D3> theres an off brand that appears under a few names (usually store brands and shit) of fruit loops that DOES taste bad
3171 2011-07-16 20:30:40 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Kellogg's? :-)
3172 2011-07-16 20:30:43 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: there is only one brand of fruit loops, the rest are nock offs
3173 2011-07-16 20:31:12 <jjjx> What I want to know is, what is the best album by The Roots?
3174 2011-07-16 20:31:18 <IO-> I've seen one called "fruity O's"
3175 2011-07-16 20:31:23 kabo69 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3176 2011-07-16 20:31:23 <IO-> big bags
3177 2011-07-16 20:31:32 <Zagitta> Am i the only one who think it could be fun to mail Gavin a private bitcoin key with a few BTC's on it and then encrypt it with some simple scheme just to see if he'd figure it out? :D
3178 2011-07-16 20:31:36 <BlueMatt> ok, this is waaaay off topic
3179 2011-07-16 20:31:37 <Diablo-D3> IO-: malto-meal
3180 2011-07-16 20:31:40 <Diablo-D3> which the hilarity is
3181 2011-07-16 20:31:44 <Diablo-D3> those ARE kellogs fruit loops
3182 2011-07-16 20:32:00 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: I have a feeling he has a ton of better things to be doing
3183 2011-07-16 20:32:06 <Diablo-D3> malto-meal's headquarters used to be in battle creek MI
3184 2011-07-16 20:32:09 <jjjx> What the hell ARE Fruit Loops anyway? I mean, what are they made of? Pure sugar?
3185 2011-07-16 20:32:12 <Diablo-D3> guess where kellogs is from? ding.
3186 2011-07-16 20:32:16 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: ceareal
3187 2011-07-16 20:32:16 <jjjx> Or rather, pure corn syrup...
3188 2011-07-16 20:32:19 <IO-> nothing like undercutting yourself to cater to the snobs and the poor at the same time
3189 2011-07-16 20:32:21 kabo69 has joined
3190 2011-07-16 20:32:24 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: What's that? :-)
3191 2011-07-16 20:32:29 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: For all you know every statement of mine on IRC represents a bitcoin private key for an address with funds sent to itâ¦
3192 2011-07-16 20:32:31 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: google it.
3193 2011-07-16 20:32:37 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Some slew of grain?
3194 2011-07-16 20:32:40 <Diablo-D3> basically
3195 2011-07-16 20:32:45 <IO-> in my day, we ate nintendo controllers! and we liked it! in the snow!
3196 2011-07-16 20:32:46 <jjjx> And corn syrup.
3197 2011-07-16 20:33:22 <jjjx> God's will be done.
3198 2011-07-16 20:33:24 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: Touché and lol @ gmaxwell
3199 2011-07-16 20:33:26 <Diablo-D3> but yeah
3200 2011-07-16 20:33:29 <Diablo-D3> maltomeal is hilarious
3201 2011-07-16 20:33:39 <Diablo-D3> way back when, the government said "hey, why should kids have to pay for marketing"
3202 2011-07-16 20:33:52 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Do kids pay for it now? (Yes, I suppose they do)
3203 2011-07-16 20:33:57 <Diablo-D3> so kellogs went "okay, we'll buy the maltomeal company, and sell the same shit much cheaper with a shitty un-mascott on the bag"
3204 2011-07-16 20:34:03 jav__ has joined
3205 2011-07-16 20:34:07 <Diablo-D3> and yes, a _bag_
3206 2011-07-16 20:34:08 * BlueMatt is busy trying to figure out the privkey from gmaxwell's last comment
3207 2011-07-16 20:34:08 <Diablo-D3> no boxes
3208 2011-07-16 20:34:31 <IO-> ya i've had the bag serial. tasted the exact same to me
3209 2011-07-16 20:34:43 <Diablo-D3> maltomeal is exactly the same as the real shit
3210 2011-07-16 20:34:51 <IO-> go figure
3211 2011-07-16 20:35:13 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3212 2011-07-16 20:35:43 <IO-> i'm stealing this gif: http://promotions.newegg.com/NEemail/BTE/PostBrowse/images/PB_V3_IMG.gif
3213 2011-07-16 20:35:50 <IO-> its pretty awesome
3214 2011-07-16 20:35:56 Fairuser has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3215 2011-07-16 20:36:29 <BlueMatt> except that that is copyright infringement...
3216 2011-07-16 20:36:30 <Diablo-D3> the hilarious part is
3217 2011-07-16 20:36:36 <Diablo-D3> no one actually fucking knows about this
3218 2011-07-16 20:36:42 <jjjx> How many of y'all niggaz actually *don't* use the 'official is not the word' Bitcoin client?
3219 2011-07-16 20:36:47 <Diablo-D3> like, they think its a real company
3220 2011-07-16 20:36:50 <IO-> i did say stealing
3221 2011-07-16 20:36:59 <BlueMatt> jjjx: really? you cant talk like a normal person?
3222 2011-07-16 20:37:15 <Diablo-D3> like, they bought quaker oat's bagged cereal division
3223 2011-07-16 20:37:19 <Diablo-D3> for the superior bagging shit
3224 2011-07-16 20:37:27 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3225 2011-07-16 20:37:28 s13013_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3226 2011-07-16 20:37:44 <jjjx> BlueMatt: Well, it's somehow not surprising that you would ask me that. :-)
3227 2011-07-16 20:37:52 <Diablo-D3> and all of it is, well, fake cereal
3228 2011-07-16 20:37:53 <Diablo-D3> i mean
3229 2011-07-16 20:37:54 <Diablo-D3> its real
3230 2011-07-16 20:37:54 RenaKunisaki has joined
3231 2011-07-16 20:38:04 <Zagitta> back to topic: Does bitcoin currently just accept _ALL_ transactions? or does it exclude all below a certain amount to aviod spam?
3232 2011-07-16 20:38:06 <Diablo-D3> it comes from a bunch of major companies, not just kellogs
3233 2011-07-16 20:38:18 RenaKunisaki has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3234 2011-07-16 20:38:22 <jav__> sipa's showwallet branch doesn't remove keys after exporting them, right? .. is there a branch which would allow to delete specific keys from a wallet?
3235 2011-07-16 20:38:24 <Diablo-D3> like, their version of golden grahams IS golden grhams
3236 2011-07-16 20:38:27 <Diablo-D3> and the fruit loops
3237 2011-07-16 20:38:27 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Does Kellogg's produce all the off-brand cereal too?
3238 2011-07-16 20:38:31 <Diablo-D3> and the crunch berries
3239 2011-07-16 20:38:34 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: no
3240 2011-07-16 20:38:40 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: I always assumed that was the case. Why not produce both -- makes sense.
3241 2011-07-16 20:38:48 <Diablo-D3> and maltomeal sells things that arent kellogs
3242 2011-07-16 20:38:49 <gim> Zagitta: bitcoin network accepts all transactions, bitcoin client is not
3243 2011-07-16 20:38:50 <Diablo-D3> its just a back door deal
3244 2011-07-16 20:38:55 <Diablo-D3> and you know what
3245 2011-07-16 20:38:56 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: Other common clients won't forward transactions with outputs smaller than 0.01 unless the transaction includes a fee of at least 0.0005.
3246 2011-07-16 20:38:57 <Diablo-D3> its not even evil
3247 2011-07-16 20:39:01 <Diablo-D3> its a good thing
3248 2011-07-16 20:39:09 <Diablo-D3> it makes sure kids actually DO have a bowl of cereal in the morning
3249 2011-07-16 20:39:13 RenaKunisaki has joined
3250 2011-07-16 20:39:20 <Diablo-D3> maltomeal is like half the cost per ounce depending on where you buy your shit
3251 2011-07-16 20:39:20 s13013 has joined
3252 2011-07-16 20:39:28 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: it's not forced in the actual bitcoin algorithim itself, so in theory some client could do this. In practice they don't due to the DOS attacks.
3253 2011-07-16 20:39:37 Teslah has joined
3254 2011-07-16 20:40:35 bittwist_ is now known as bittwist
3255 2011-07-16 20:40:50 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Cereal fucking scholar.
3256 2011-07-16 20:41:02 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: yeah i know it's not forced, the reason i'm asking is to find a ruleset wich my pool software would generate blocks from and as such in(ex)clude transactions without being considered dickish by the network
3257 2011-07-16 20:41:11 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: well, when you eat the shit every day
3258 2011-07-16 20:41:15 <Diablo-D3> you eventually learn about it
3259 2011-07-16 20:41:24 <Diablo-D3> Im like, the wikipedia of shit that wikipedia wont carry
3260 2011-07-16 20:41:47 x6763 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3261 2011-07-16 20:41:51 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: I can just see you in the discuss pages of various trivial wikipedia pages about cereal brands... Going nuts.
3262 2011-07-16 20:42:02 <jjjx> Or hell, maybe it's really important. :-)
3263 2011-07-16 20:42:10 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: ummm. You're writing pool software the doesn't use bitcoind to generate the actual blocks?
3264 2011-07-16 20:42:12 MC-Eeepc has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3265 2011-07-16 20:42:23 x6763 has joined
3266 2011-07-16 20:42:30 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: I never interact with the wikipedia nutjobs
3267 2011-07-16 20:42:34 <Diablo-D3> edit nazis they all are
3268 2011-07-16 20:42:35 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: why the hell would you do that?
3269 2011-07-16 20:42:39 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: that's at least the plan
3270 2011-07-16 20:42:47 <jjjx> I suppose like you say, most kids would have starved to death by the age of 10 if it weren't for these cheap cereals... More a larger sociaital failure, but I digress.
3271 2011-07-16 20:42:48 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: why???
3272 2011-07-16 20:42:53 MC-Eeepc has joined
3273 2011-07-16 20:43:02 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: well no
3274 2011-07-16 20:43:06 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: 1) avoide a bottleneck 2) learning experince
3275 2011-07-16 20:43:09 <Diablo-D3> early morning pork chop sandwhiches
3276 2011-07-16 20:43:21 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: Thats probably a poor plan. It's not required, and it will be a lot of work to generate blocks that the network won't end up rejecting because you've subtly gotten some rule or another wrong.
3277 2011-07-16 20:43:25 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: you know what I think there IS a conspiracy about?
3278 2011-07-16 20:43:35 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: I think meat is orders of magnitude more expensive than a box of cereal though ?
3279 2011-07-16 20:43:40 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Shoot.
3280 2011-07-16 20:43:40 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3281 2011-07-16 20:43:46 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: I think you can learn just as much and get better results by modifying the existing client to optimize it
3282 2011-07-16 20:43:50 <Diablo-D3> boo berry
3283 2011-07-16 20:43:57 <Diablo-D3> its possibly the worlds most popular cereal
3284 2011-07-16 20:44:01 <Diablo-D3> IT IS NEVER ON THE FUCKING SHELVES
3285 2011-07-16 20:44:02 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: or just generally improve the client which everyone could benifit from
3286 2011-07-16 20:44:04 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Count Chocula's nemesis?
3287 2011-07-16 20:44:12 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: I know what you mean!
3288 2011-07-16 20:44:12 <Diablo-D3> I mean, they have fucking count chocula and frankenberry
3289 2011-07-16 20:44:13 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: jjjx can we please stop the cereal discussions, its very off topic...
3290 2011-07-16 20:44:14 <Diablo-D3> all the time
3291 2011-07-16 20:44:16 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: it shouldn't ever be a bottleneck.
3292 2011-07-16 20:44:18 <Diablo-D3> all fucking year round
3293 2011-07-16 20:44:22 <Diablo-D3> but never the boo berry
3294 2011-07-16 20:44:22 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Probably a regional thing.
3295 2011-07-16 20:44:24 <Diablo-D3> fucking _fuckers_
3296 2011-07-16 20:44:25 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: it is
3297 2011-07-16 20:44:31 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: i wish i could but sadly i don't know c++ or C for that matter...
3298 2011-07-16 20:44:38 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/General_Mills_monster-themed_breakfast_cereals
3299 2011-07-16 20:44:40 Kiba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3300 2011-07-16 20:44:41 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: because like, some regions have it for a few months, and then OTHERS get it
3301 2011-07-16 20:44:43 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: and the anti-ddos rules are about the simplest part of the whole process. If you're asking questions about that, you're probably going to have a very hard time. :)
3302 2011-07-16 20:44:46 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: I knew no C++ or C when I started working on bitcoin either
3303 2011-07-16 20:44:52 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Holy shit, the count's received a re-branding since I last ate that shit!
3304 2011-07-16 20:44:58 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: yeah
3305 2011-07-16 20:45:02 <Diablo-D3> and the other ones havent
3306 2011-07-16 20:45:11 <Diablo-D3> wait holy shit
3307 2011-07-16 20:45:12 <jjjx> CONSPIRACY
3308 2011-07-16 20:45:13 <Diablo-D3> boo berry has
3309 2011-07-16 20:45:16 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is that shit
3310 2011-07-16 20:45:18 Kiba has joined
3311 2011-07-16 20:45:18 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: jjjx can we please stop the cereal discussions, its very off topic...
3312 2011-07-16 20:45:21 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: no people here was complaining about a block that consisted of a lot of very small transactions, that's why i was thinking about those rules
3313 2011-07-16 20:45:23 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: Boo Berry looks pretty 'Dreamworks' to me.
3314 2011-07-16 20:45:28 <jjjx> Diablo-D3: I'll bet he's been updated.
3315 2011-07-16 20:45:29 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: up yours, I was here long before you
3316 2011-07-16 20:45:37 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: look at the box picture, it has been
3317 2011-07-16 20:45:42 <jjjx> Fruit Brute looks like he's from 1971 though.
3318 2011-07-16 20:45:45 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: I dont care, still not on topic
3319 2011-07-16 20:45:46 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: in any case, mining is about the hardest thing you can do. You must have full block chain validation and support for reorgs before you can even start on the mining part.
3320 2011-07-16 20:45:55 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: my dick. suck it.
3321 2011-07-16 20:46:11 <Diablo-D3> jjjx: yeah, they dont make fruit brute or yummy mummy anymore
3322 2011-07-16 20:46:13 <jjjx> :-) You kids...
3323 2011-07-16 20:46:15 Diablo-D3 has joined
3324 2011-07-16 20:46:16 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: block chain validation is already ported to c#
3325 2011-07-16 20:46:16 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: You like getting banned from channels?
3326 2011-07-16 20:46:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thanks.
3327 2011-07-16 20:46:47 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: Also json-rcp is a bottle neck
3328 2011-07-16 20:47:20 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: It doesn't have to be.
3329 2011-07-16 20:47:48 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3330 2011-07-16 20:48:02 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: sure but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be easier to avoid all together
3331 2011-07-16 20:48:50 <gmaxwell> ...
3332 2011-07-16 20:48:50 klikklak has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3333 2011-07-16 20:48:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: erm, mining isn't that hard
3334 2011-07-16 20:49:12 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you're thinking node+mining
3335 2011-07-16 20:49:16 Teslah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3336 2011-07-16 20:49:20 <BlueMatt> nameless|: typically when I kick people I dont care if they rejoin, in fact I encourage it, I just kick to get people to calm the hell down and wait a minute...
3337 2011-07-16 20:49:26 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Yes, but you can't mine without having the node software
3338 2011-07-16 20:49:40 Blojack has joined
3339 2011-07-16 20:49:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: sure, but the node software is ideally a different component from the mining software
3340 2011-07-16 20:50:16 pusle has quit ()
3341 2011-07-16 20:50:16 <luke-jr> nameless|: if you don't want autorejoin, use remove instead of kick
3342 2011-07-16 20:50:28 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: there's another thing about me though in regards to c++/c... I've never had any computer science classes... hell i just graduated from highschool a month ago and programming is just a hobby for me, at least untill i start on the software engineering education in 1½ month
3343 2011-07-16 20:50:41 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: Diablo was banned? :O
3344 2011-07-16 20:50:50 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: welcome to the club
3345 2011-07-16 20:50:51 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: sure, if instead he were working on creating an interface for bitcoind to export candidate transactions, for a mining process, then I'd be much quieter.
3346 2011-07-16 20:50:58 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: I graduated high school, what 2 months ago
3347 2011-07-16 20:51:09 <jjjx> Zagitta: Have you found it pretty easy to start picking it up without any university background?
3348 2011-07-16 20:51:09 <erus`> its not too late guys
3349 2011-07-16 20:51:15 <jjjx> Zagitta: I'd love to get into coding.
3350 2011-07-16 20:51:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: port 8333 works fine for that
3351 2011-07-16 20:51:32 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3352 2011-07-16 20:51:37 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: oh... well *high5'
3353 2011-07-16 20:51:45 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: No,â because it won't tell you, e.g. after a reorg which of the prior txn that it's told you about can no longer be included.
3354 2011-07-16 20:51:51 klikklak has joined
3355 2011-07-16 20:51:56 <Zagitta> jjjx: C# is very easy to get started with, c++ blew my mind but i figured out c# pretty fast
3356 2011-07-16 20:51:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ok, to an extent :p
3357 2011-07-16 20:52:00 <gmaxwell> (reorg or new block)
3358 2011-07-16 20:52:04 <jjjx> Zagitta: And did you go right into C/C++ from nothing?
3359 2011-07-16 20:52:06 <jjjx> Ah.
3360 2011-07-16 20:52:09 <luke-jr> Zagitta: C# ftl
3361 2011-07-16 20:52:14 <erus`> Zagitta: #programming-begginers
3362 2011-07-16 20:52:35 <Zagitta> yeye i get it, why the hell do you think i'm avoiding c++/c for now lol?
3363 2011-07-16 20:52:55 <jjjx> I mean people used to bootstrap themselves into assembly language, so I guess it can be done.
3364 2011-07-16 20:53:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: though shure it wouldn't be hard to make a getwork interface which instead gives you all the parts you need to build the work yourself.
3365 2011-07-16 20:53:14 <gmaxwell> And trusts that you'll return them all when you give a result.
3366 2011-07-16 20:53:29 <gmaxwell> (then you could coinbaser/extranonce in your pool daemon)
3367 2011-07-16 20:53:32 klikklak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3368 2011-07-16 20:53:34 bitcoinbulletin has joined
3369 2011-07-16 20:53:42 <erus`> jjjx: assembly language is not like high level languages, no custom types etc
3370 2011-07-16 20:54:03 <erus`> less complex = easier to learn perhaps
3371 2011-07-16 20:54:04 <gmaxwell> yea, you've got it wrongâ languages are harder to learn the better they are. :)
3372 2011-07-16 20:54:12 <Zagitta> also it's not like i have problems with understanding simple shit like value types and programming flows, no the only thing about c++ i don't get is the syntax
3373 2011-07-16 20:54:12 <luke-jr> Perl ftw!
3374 2011-07-16 20:54:15 <gmaxwell> In ASM there are very few things to remember (even on x86)
3375 2011-07-16 20:54:30 <gmaxwell> In C there are more things to remember but it's still fairly few.
3376 2011-07-16 20:54:53 <gmaxwell> C++ is basically impossible for any single person to know all of the language. :(
3377 2011-07-16 20:55:01 <luke-jr> <>=~/^(\w+)(?: HTTP
3378 2011-07-16 20:55:09 <erus`> why is it full of noobs in here today? :)
3379 2011-07-16 20:55:14 <luke-jr> <>=~/^(\w+)(?: HTTP\/([\d+]))?$/;
3380 2011-07-16 20:55:21 <luke-jr> Zagitta: isn't Perl lovely?
3381 2011-07-16 20:55:58 klikklak has joined
3382 2011-07-16 20:56:00 <luke-jr> oops, that's buggy
3383 2011-07-16 20:56:04 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3384 2011-07-16 20:56:11 <Zagitta> luke-jr: ,>++++++[<-------->-],[<+>-]<. isn't brainfuck lovely?
3385 2011-07-16 20:56:18 <prof7bit> I would suggest a language now but I think i should not.
3386 2011-07-16 20:56:19 <luke-jr> my($method,$path,$httpver)=<>=~/^(\w+)(.*?)(?: HTTP\/([\d+]))?$/;
3387 2011-07-16 20:56:25 Beccara has joined
3388 2011-07-16 20:56:30 <erus`> luke-jr try APL :)
3389 2011-07-16 20:56:36 <jjjx> Got it.
3390 2011-07-16 20:56:36 <jjjx> But it's more like easy to get into, difficult to master, yea?
3391 2011-07-16 20:56:36 <jjjx> Eas(ier)
3392 2011-07-16 20:57:18 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3393 2011-07-16 20:57:47 BlueMatt has joined
3394 2011-07-16 20:58:03 <Zagitta> also guys... get over this whole *MY PPOGRAMMING LANGUAGE IS BEST AND YOU'RE A NUB!* thing because the tools aren't any better than the master...
3395 2011-07-16 20:58:30 <BlueMatt> no one ever said they were, its just best to learn something new instead of sticking with what you know
3396 2011-07-16 20:58:31 Blojack has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3397 2011-07-16 20:58:40 <BlueMatt> especially when the potential contribution could be much larger
3398 2011-07-16 20:58:42 <prof7bit> and there exist more than only 3 languages.
3399 2011-07-16 20:58:47 molecular has joined
3400 2011-07-16 20:59:03 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: sure, i was just refering to certain other guys hating on c# ;)
3401 2011-07-16 20:59:17 <BlueMatt> oh, well my connection was fd up so I guess I missed that
3402 2011-07-16 20:59:26 <BlueMatt> (damn 24h pppoe reset)
3403 2011-07-16 21:00:12 <luke-jr> Zagitta: the master isn't a master if he uses C#
3404 2011-07-16 21:00:18 <luke-jr> because it requires BLOAT to run
3405 2011-07-16 21:00:28 <Zagitta> luke-jr
3406 2011-07-16 21:00:29 <Zagitta> wrong
3407 2011-07-16 21:00:38 <luke-jr> prove it
3408 2011-07-16 21:00:40 <Zagitta> C# in itself can run on anything
3409 2011-07-16 21:00:43 <luke-jr> yeah right
3410 2011-07-16 21:00:55 <luke-jr> show me a C# compiler that outputs sane binaries
3411 2011-07-16 21:01:00 <luke-jr> ie, without BLOAT deps
3412 2011-07-16 21:01:09 <BlueMatt> oh please, no language pissing matches
3413 2011-07-16 21:01:12 <luke-jr> :p
3414 2011-07-16 21:01:28 slux has joined
3415 2011-07-16 21:01:36 <erus`> perl cant even compile binaries
3416 2011-07-16 21:01:37 slux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3417 2011-07-16 21:01:37 <prof7bit> C# is only useful for very limited purposes, mostly when all the rest is already in C# (due to wrong decisions in the past)
3418 2011-07-16 21:01:54 <luke-jr> erus`: it doesn't have to, it isn't bloated :P
3419 2011-07-16 21:02:15 <erus`> prof7bit: if your making commercial software for windows its a better fit than C++
3420 2011-07-16 21:02:18 <Zagitta> prof7bit: have you actually ever used C# for anything?
3421 2011-07-16 21:02:25 <erus`> for everything else theres haskell
3422 2011-07-16 21:02:29 * erus` ducks
3423 2011-07-16 21:02:41 <luke-jr> erus`: nobody should be making software for Windows
3424 2011-07-16 21:02:49 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3425 2011-07-16 21:02:51 <prof7bit> c# is not useful on m ylinux box, so why should I waste time with it?
3426 2011-07-16 21:02:52 <luke-jr> if Windows support is required, they should be making portable software
3427 2011-07-16 21:03:04 <erus`> thats true but i will sell my soul for the money
3428 2011-07-16 21:03:07 <luke-jr> in other words, Qt4
3429 2011-07-16 21:03:13 discHead has joined
3430 2011-07-16 21:03:26 <erus`> ugh
3431 2011-07-16 21:03:36 <Zagitta> prof7bit: how about you throw mono on your linux box like me and grab my software and see if it runs? https://github.com/Zagitta/Zetlon.Coinster
3432 2011-07-16 21:03:42 <luke-jr> or C99 if no GUI is needed :D
3433 2011-07-16 21:04:04 <erus`> only drivers should be in C
3434 2011-07-16 21:04:07 <prof7bit> i refuse to use it because you wont be able to tell me one reason to use it over what I hve aleady.
3435 2011-07-16 21:04:20 <prof7bit> and i dont like multi hundred MB runtimes.
3436 2011-07-16 21:04:20 <luke-jr> erus`: you're crazy :p
3437 2011-07-16 21:04:35 <luke-jr> erus`: practically everything is C, except for GUI
3438 2011-07-16 21:04:39 <Zagitta> *rolles eyes*
3439 2011-07-16 21:04:51 <gmaxwell> luke-jr++
3440 2011-07-16 21:05:08 <prof7bit> Pascal
3441 2011-07-16 21:05:09 <erus`> luke-jr, generics can save so much code
3442 2011-07-16 21:05:31 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3443 2011-07-16 21:05:35 <erus`> theres just no reason not to
3444 2011-07-16 21:06:01 molecular has joined
3445 2011-07-16 21:06:21 <luke-jr> erus`: I have heard the term "generics" in exactly one language before, and nobody uses it in the real world.
3446 2011-07-16 21:06:27 nhodges has joined
3447 2011-07-16 21:06:47 <prof7bit> the C++ guys are calling them "templates"
3448 2011-07-16 21:07:07 <luke-jr> templates != generics
3449 2011-07-16 21:07:07 <erus`> I wrote a little game in C before (a flight sim) and i ended up just using function pointers like overridden virtual functions it was just silly
3450 2011-07-16 21:07:13 <erus`> i should have just used C++
3451 2011-07-16 21:07:25 <luke-jr> erus`: if you're writing OO code, then you should use an OO language
3452 2011-07-16 21:07:30 <luke-jr> most code doesn't have a reason to be OO
3453 2011-07-16 21:07:50 <erus`> how do people handle entitys in C?
3454 2011-07-16 21:08:01 <prof7bit> by not using C?
3455 2011-07-16 21:08:08 <luke-jr> entities?
3456 2011-07-16 21:08:08 <gmaxwell> C is a nice languageâ and one of the few languages where its more likely than not that the programmer actually understand everythign they are doing with the language.
3457 2011-07-16 21:08:16 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3458 2011-07-16 21:08:16 groffer has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3459 2011-07-16 21:08:34 <erus`> luke-jr in a game world everything that has to interact with anything else is an entity
3460 2011-07-16 21:08:36 smtmnyz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3461 2011-07-16 21:08:53 <luke-jr> erus`: well obviously games are likely to be OO, and thus not in C
3462 2011-07-16 21:09:31 devrandom has joined
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3464 2011-07-16 21:09:44 <erus`> so C isnt the silver bullet?
3465 2011-07-16 21:09:46 cjdelisle has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3466 2011-07-16 21:09:49 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: how is that not calling every non c programmer stupid? :)
3467 2011-07-16 21:10:28 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: er. I said nothing about the programmers. Perhaps I'm calling them not super-human, I hope they'll forgive me.
3468 2011-07-16 21:10:35 <diki> erus:you need to kill a warewolf?
3469 2011-07-16 21:10:37 <luke-jr> erus`: no, Perl is the silver bullet
3470 2011-07-16 21:10:47 JRWR has joined
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3473 2011-07-16 21:10:49 <BlueMatt> oh please, no language pissing matches
3474 2011-07-16 21:10:51 CydeWeys has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3475 2011-07-16 21:10:53 <erus`> haha
3476 2011-07-16 21:10:53 cjdelisle has joined
3477 2011-07-16 21:10:54 <BlueMatt> can we get back to bitcoin?
3478 2011-07-16 21:11:22 <diki> yes matt, now how bout' fixing the slow startup
3479 2011-07-16 21:11:30 <diki> crysis 2 starts faster
3480 2011-07-16 21:11:54 <luke-jr> lol
3481 2011-07-16 21:11:58 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: calling c programmers super-human is still making every other programmer inferior ;)
3482 2011-07-16 21:11:59 <kinlo> can anyone give me the blockheader for block 125552 in the format that the miner would give it to bitcoind?
3483 2011-07-16 21:11:59 <BlueMatt> its on the todo list
3484 2011-07-16 21:12:09 <diki> but why am i comparing a 7 gigs game that eats more than a gig ram to bitcoin
3485 2011-07-16 21:12:16 <diki> i mean...bitcoin is not 7 gigs
3486 2011-07-16 21:12:36 <Zagitta> kinlo: i think i can
3487 2011-07-16 21:12:50 <diki> bluematt:sounds like you need to make it snappy
3488 2011-07-16 21:13:09 * BlueMatt slow claps for diki
3489 2011-07-16 21:13:42 <erus`> does bitcoin build on windows yet?
3490 2011-07-16 21:13:48 BlueMattBot has joined
3491 2011-07-16 21:14:36 <diki> can i btw see the todo list?
3492 2011-07-16 21:14:44 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3494 2011-07-16 21:15:15 <devrandom> BlueMatt: for boost, do we need all combinations of threaded/single and debug/release, or just one?
3495 2011-07-16 21:15:27 <kinlo> Zagitta: basicly, I need the header from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
3496 2011-07-16 21:15:31 <Zagitta> kinlo: 0000000100000000000008a3a41b85b8b29ad444def299fee21793cd8b9e567eab02cd812b12fcf1b09288fcaff797d71e950e71ae42b91e8bdb2304758dfcffc2b620e34dd7f5c71a44b9f29546a142
3497 2011-07-16 21:15:41 <kinlo> ok thanks
3498 2011-07-16 21:15:50 <kinlo> I'm really breaking my head on the endiannes
3499 2011-07-16 21:15:58 kabo69 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3500 2011-07-16 21:16:00 <kinlo> now I should be able to figure out how to convert
3501 2011-07-16 21:16:03 <kinlo> thanks a lot :)
3502 2011-07-16 21:16:13 <Zagitta> kinlo: i know your pain, i went through the same 2 days ago
3503 2011-07-16 21:16:13 <jjjx> kinlo: Are you porting?
3504 2011-07-16 21:16:34 <BlueMatt> devrandom: just release I think
3505 2011-07-16 21:16:43 <BlueMatt> just one
3506 2011-07-16 21:16:44 <devrandom> BlueMatt: oh, you are selecting only multithreaded...
3507 2011-07-16 21:16:50 <devrandom> ok, I'll skip debug
3508 2011-07-16 21:17:09 <devrandom> BlueMatt: and what type of linking? just static?
3509 2011-07-16 21:17:28 <diki> add this to the todo list: Add more options to...uhm, well..Options
3510 2011-07-16 21:17:42 <diki> like configuring username, allowip and stuff like that
3511 2011-07-16 21:17:52 <diki> port etc
3512 2011-07-16 21:17:54 <BlueMatt> devrandom: for windows, just static
3513 2011-07-16 21:18:01 <BlueMatt> for linux, well we dont use that
3514 2011-07-16 21:18:05 <kinlo> jjjx: not really :)
3515 2011-07-16 21:18:43 <devrandom> right
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3520 2011-07-16 21:20:08 <Zagitta> kinlo: i can help you if it's needed
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3524 2011-07-16 21:20:34 <kinlo> Zagitta: I've managed to calculate the hash but I was just puzzled with the endiannes
3525 2011-07-16 21:21:35 <Zagitta> kinlo: ah okay, well the endianess swap around all the time... i don't get it either so i took the easy way and swapped stuff around in the string
3526 2011-07-16 21:22:31 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3527 2011-07-16 21:22:44 <kinlo> Zagitta: but if I see this correctly, I need to convert endiannes for the first 4 bytes for the version, then for the 32 for prev block, then 32 for merkle, then 4, 4 and 4 for the timestamp/diff./nonce
3528 2011-07-16 21:22:57 <kinlo> so I need to do this in these pairs
3529 2011-07-16 21:23:04 <Zagitta> exactly
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3537 2011-07-16 21:28:14 <IO-> you DO find blocks on the testnet right?
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3541 2011-07-16 21:28:47 <BlueMatt> yes
3542 2011-07-16 21:28:53 asuk_ has quit (Client Quit)
3543 2011-07-16 21:29:01 asuk has quit (Client Quit)
3544 2011-07-16 21:29:04 <IO-> k
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3557 2011-07-16 21:47:52 <jrmithdobbs> annoying
3558 2011-07-16 21:48:06 <jrmithdobbs> what is intel thinking releasing an integrated chipset whose nic can't do pxe
3559 2011-07-16 21:48:15 <jrmithdobbs> (atom stuff)
3560 2011-07-16 21:48:27 <jrmithdobbs> make me write shit to usb keys, damn it
3561 2011-07-16 21:48:35 <Eliel_> jrmithdobbs: sounds like a monetizing plan for their "more advanced" networking equipment
3562 2011-07-16 21:48:38 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3563 2011-07-16 21:48:55 <jrmithdobbs> no this is 2011 adding pxe firmware to a nic costs nothing
3564 2011-07-16 21:49:00 <jrmithdobbs> esp since intel owns all the patents on it
3565 2011-07-16 21:49:20 <jrmithdobbs> pain in my ass
3566 2011-07-16 21:49:37 <Zagitta> jrmithdobbs: I thought using PXE required you to flash the nic rom or something in that general direction? :3
3567 2011-07-16 21:49:56 <JFK911> jrmithdobbs: u tard use etherboot
3568 2011-07-16 21:50:12 <JFK911> if u are going to buy that junk
3569 2011-07-16 21:50:33 <jrmithdobbs> that would still require me to put shit on a usbkey
3570 2011-07-16 21:51:12 <JFK911> well you can take five mins and do it, or you can spend $10 more for non barebones home user hardware, or you can keep whining and see if that changes their plans
3571 2011-07-16 21:51:36 groffer has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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3573 2011-07-16 21:51:48 <jrmithdobbs> i'm already just going to put the whole install image on the usb key what are you raging about exactly
3574 2011-07-16 21:52:02 <JFK911> that sounds like it will be real fast
3575 2011-07-16 21:52:35 <jrmithdobbs> for a base install? sure not like i'm putting all 8 dvd images onto a usbkey
3576 2011-07-16 21:52:40 groffer has joined
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3578 2011-07-16 21:53:17 <jrmithdobbs> and um, this is a small embedded thing, it's not "barebones home user hardware"
3579 2011-07-16 21:53:23 <jrmithdobbs> you like jumping to conclusions a lot
3580 2011-07-16 21:53:29 <diki> thought i'd share:in the capital of my country, we have our first serial killer
3581 2011-07-16 21:53:50 <jrmithdobbs> diki: the first one the news is reporting on, anyways
3582 2011-07-16 21:53:59 <diki> no, the first ever
3583 2011-07-16 21:54:05 <jrmithdobbs> doubtful
3584 2011-07-16 21:54:17 <diki> just like how this year was the first ever in history to have bank robbery with hostages
3585 2011-07-16 21:54:47 Xunie has joined
3586 2011-07-16 21:55:52 BlueMatt has joined
3587 2011-07-16 21:56:12 <Zagitta> diki: where exactly are you from?
3588 2011-07-16 21:57:02 <diki> oh just a small country in europe
3589 2011-07-16 21:57:40 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3590 2011-07-16 21:58:54 <Zagitta> *is from europe*
3591 2011-07-16 21:59:36 Lachesis has joined
3592 2011-07-16 21:59:38 <jrmithdobbs> diki: you mean as opposed to the non-existant large countries in europe?
3593 2011-07-16 22:02:40 <jav__> is it safe to delete a key from wallet.dat that has never been used (no transactions that reference it) or is there something to look out for?
3594 2011-07-16 22:02:43 <makomk> jrmithdobbs: definitely sounds like a monetizing plan for "more advanced" hardware.
3595 2011-07-16 22:02:56 <makomk> Intel have been doing a lot of annoying things like that lately.
3596 2011-07-16 22:03:17 <jrmithdobbs> makomk: just annoying, net booting isn't an "advanced" feature ;p
3597 2011-07-16 22:03:30 <sipa> jav__: should be safe
3598 2011-07-16 22:03:56 <sipa> make sure no keypool entry refers to it
3599 2011-07-16 22:04:08 <diki> what do you mean by non-existant
3600 2011-07-16 22:04:14 <diki> im not getting the sarcasm if any
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3602 2011-07-16 22:04:44 <jav__> sipa: in which way would he kepool reference it?
3603 2011-07-16 22:05:03 <makomk> It is when you're Intel. They've been doing things like restricting what screen size Atom laptops can run on - enforced by the graphics hardware too in some cases no less, randomly disabling processor features...
3604 2011-07-16 22:06:02 <jrmithdobbs> diki: there aren't any "large" countries in europe seeing as it's a "small" land mass
3605 2011-07-16 22:06:11 <sipa> jav__: keypool entries contain the pubkeys of reserve keys
3606 2011-07-16 22:06:31 <bliket_> what is a key?
3607 2011-07-16 22:06:59 <bliket_> i bet you can't explain without using the word "key"
3608 2011-07-16 22:07:46 <jav__> sipa: ok.. but that can only happen to recent keys (in the last 100), right? .. so if it's an old key, with at least 100 keys generated after it, it can't appear in the keypool, right?
3609 2011-07-16 22:08:10 <sipa> jav__: shouldn't, indeed
3610 2011-07-16 22:08:18 <jav__> sipa: ok, thx
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3613 2011-07-16 22:12:28 <comboy> any opinions on this merged nmc/btc mining from the bitcoin perspective? what do you think about putting this patch in the standard bitcoin client?
3614 2011-07-16 22:17:29 klikklak has joined
3615 2011-07-16 22:19:06 <sipa> jav__: i intend to write a removeprivkey soon
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3617 2011-07-16 22:20:09 <jav__> sipa: that would be useful! For the moment I'm using this: https://github.com/mhanne/bitcoin/commit/49ba8cf6941a895a5aac2a324eb2c4ca38ef8617 (and only on keys that won't be referenced by the keypool)
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3624 2011-07-16 22:26:45 <diki> what does a getwork being called frequently have to do with transactions?
3625 2011-07-16 22:27:37 Lachesis has left ("Leaving")
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3627 2011-07-16 22:38:18 <gmaxwell> Why would you want to remove keys?
3628 2011-07-16 22:38:29 <gmaxwell> That sounds like a forumla for coin loss.
3629 2011-07-16 22:40:13 eoss has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3630 2011-07-16 22:42:27 <jav__> gmaxwell: Instawallet.org's wallet is growing too large for the current (ineffecient) Bitcoin account handling code to deal with... so I'm looking into pruning some unused keys
3631 2011-07-16 22:43:53 <gmaxwell> jav__: send the funds into a new wallet, and swap files, leave the old file around for recovery.
3632 2011-07-16 22:44:21 <gmaxwell> This is apparently what mtgox does.
3633 2011-07-16 22:44:35 <gmaxwell> (alsoâ fix bitcoin to work better :) )
3634 2011-07-16 22:45:00 <phantomcircuit> jav__, you're using the built in accounts feature?
3635 2011-07-16 22:45:05 Pathin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3636 2011-07-16 22:45:13 <gmaxwell> The remove code should probably check if there are inputs assigned to that address and refuse to do so until there are none.
3637 2011-07-16 22:45:22 <jav__> gmaxwell: I will make a backup of course... but sending funds alone won't work, because it would change Bitcoin addresses associated with accounts (I would have to import them into the fresh wallet as well)
3638 2011-07-16 22:45:32 <jav__> phantomcircuit: yes, I do
3639 2011-07-16 22:45:38 <phantomcircuit> jav__, first mistake ;)
3640 2011-07-16 22:45:46 <phantomcircuit> <-- learned the hard way
3641 2011-07-16 22:46:06 <jav__> phantomcircuit: what do you propose instead?
3642 2011-07-16 22:46:19 <gmaxwell> Just don't use it. Keep the balances in your own system.
3643 2011-07-16 22:46:23 <phantomcircuit> jav__, map address to account in a sql table
3644 2011-07-16 22:46:29 <gmaxwell> The accounts stuff is only bookkeeping in any case.
3645 2011-07-16 22:46:33 Cusipzzz has joined
3646 2011-07-16 22:46:56 <jav__> gmaxwell: and have to worry about block chain re-orgs and all that stuff? no, I don't think that's a very good idea either
3647 2011-07-16 22:47:01 <phantomcircuit> it's the only scalable method
3648 2011-07-16 22:47:30 <jav__> fixing the account code in bitcoind could also be a scalable solution
3649 2011-07-16 22:47:49 <gmaxwell> jav__: only import payments into your db when they hit whatever point you consider mature.
3650 2011-07-16 22:47:51 <phantomcircuit> you effectively dont have to worry about block chain re-orgs if you only accept tx's with > 6 confirmations
3651 2011-07-16 22:48:01 <phantomcircuit> iirc there hasn't been a split of > 1 block in more than 3 months
3652 2011-07-16 22:48:17 <bliket_> gmaxwel: did you get your http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Corsair/Padlock_2_8GB/images/stickready.jpg
3653 2011-07-16 22:48:18 <gmaxwell> I don't think the account stuff in bitcoind copes well with reorgs anyways.
3654 2011-07-16 22:48:25 <bliket_> gmaxwell*
3655 2011-07-16 22:48:26 <jav__> I want to be able to notify clients of new transactions as soon as they arrive
3656 2011-07-16 22:48:41 <gmaxwell> bliket_: no? huh? I wouldn't use that. It's probably snake oil.
3657 2011-07-16 22:48:42 <jav__> so I can't limit myself to >6 confirmation stuff
3658 2011-07-16 22:48:50 <phantomcircuit> jav__, yes listtransactions will give you the confirmation count
3659 2011-07-16 22:48:54 <bliket_> snake oil?
3660 2011-07-16 22:49:01 <gmaxwell> jav__: sure, notify them, but don't consider them as deposited at that point.
3661 2011-07-16 22:49:03 <bliket_> why snake oil
3662 2011-07-16 22:49:10 <phantomcircuit> so you notify them that the transaction is there, but not yet confirmed enough
3663 2011-07-16 22:49:16 <bliket_> i dont get snake oil?
3664 2011-07-16 22:49:40 Lachesis has joined
3665 2011-07-16 22:49:42 <gmaxwell> bliket_: past hardware usb flash drives have been insecure. E.g. there was no encryption, even though they claimed there was.
3666 2011-07-16 22:49:43 <bliket_> it's just a flash drive with a padlock on it that uses aes 256
3667 2011-07-16 22:49:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc this is legit
3668 2011-07-16 22:50:00 <bliket_> but it' corsair, corsair wouldnt lie
3669 2011-07-16 22:50:16 <Lachesis> sipa, around?
3670 2011-07-16 22:50:22 <gmaxwell> It claims to. How can you tell? also, it would be trivial for someone to scan the entire space of keys you're willing to type if they copied off the flash. Engineering around that is hard and they probably didn't.
3671 2011-07-16 22:50:33 <gmaxwell> bliket_: would the chinese vendor they bought from lie?
3672 2011-07-16 22:50:48 <bliket_> gmaxwell so I should just put it on a regular flash drive then
3673 2011-07-16 22:50:53 <jav__> well, there is also the question on how to learn about new transactions... I don't really want to do this poll-based, because I find it ugly an inefficient... but if you do it push-based, you have to worry about not missing transactions (in case bitcoind restarts and/or your application restarts)
3674 2011-07-16 22:50:59 <gmaxwell> bliket_: plus truecrypt or the like.
3675 2011-07-16 22:51:02 <phantomcircuit> bliket_, he has a point about the password keyspace
3676 2011-07-16 22:51:14 <bliket_> i have a point?
3677 2011-07-16 22:51:25 <bliket_> which one?
3678 2011-07-16 22:51:45 <phantomcircuit> jav__, the only real option at this point is to poll for new transactions, but it's a known fixed load
3679 2011-07-16 22:51:51 <makomk> http://www.corsair.com/pressrelease/corsair-flash-padlock-2-security-announcement - hmmmmmm...
3680 2011-07-16 22:51:51 <phantomcircuit> so it's not *that* big of an issue
3681 2011-07-16 22:52:19 <phantomcircuit> bliket_, it's like using a keyboard with only "abcde" on it for all your passwords
3682 2011-07-16 22:52:39 <bliket_> most y passwords are abcde
3683 2011-07-16 22:52:42 <jav__> it's ugly and it introduces latency where it shouldn't be necessary.. I consider that an issue
3684 2011-07-16 22:52:43 <bliket_> my*
3685 2011-07-16 22:52:46 <gmaxwell> jav__: re: reorgs. What happens if I pay into address XYZ, asscoiated with account X. Then account Y spends that input elsewhere. Later a reorg makes the txn into XYZ into a double spend, so it vanishes. What is the status of the accounts at the end.
3686 2011-07-16 22:53:11 <phantomcircuit> jav__, it is an issue, but there isn't a push method that actually works
3687 2011-07-16 22:53:22 <gmaxwell> jav__: I don't _think_ bitcoind correctly copes with that. I'm not even sure there is an obviously correct solution if there e.g. have been MOVE rpcs in the middle.
3688 2011-07-16 22:53:38 <Lachesis> do those corsair drives have encryption hardware?
3689 2011-07-16 22:53:43 <Lachesis> or do they handle it in s/w somewhere
3690 2011-07-16 22:53:47 <makomk> That's an impressive security glitch in those flash drives.
3691 2011-07-16 22:53:49 <Lachesis> if they have hardware, a pin _could_ be secure
3692 2011-07-16 22:53:56 <bliket_> its much easier to remember abcde, plus i like smoking weed
3693 2011-07-16 22:54:16 <Lachesis> lol KEY + 0/1 = erase pin
3694 2011-07-16 22:54:17 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: there have been ones that did it with software, yes.
3695 2011-07-16 22:54:20 <jav__> gmaxwell: I believe it will be correct (one of the reason I don't want to implement this myself, as bitcoind worries about this) ... but the reason it's correct, is mostly because it recalculates the state of accounts from scratch each time you ask for that
3696 2011-07-16 22:54:44 <gmaxwell> jav__: I don't think it will notice a txn you've already spent being invalidated.
3697 2011-07-16 22:54:49 <Lachesis> gmaxwell, if they handle it in hardware AND the hardware burns itself up after X invalid pins
3698 2011-07-16 22:54:52 <jav__> phantomcircuit: indeed, there is no good push method yet, so that's why I haven't switched to do my own accounting
3699 2011-07-16 22:54:54 <Lachesis> it's fairly secure
3700 2011-07-16 22:55:15 <gmaxwell> jav__: moreover, I can pretty much promise that no one has actually tested that case.
3701 2011-07-16 22:55:50 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: _maybe_ If thats all they did you just connected to the flash chips directly and copy the data off before you try any cracking.
3702 2011-07-16 22:55:55 <bliket_> its fairy secure
3703 2011-07-16 22:56:00 <phantomcircuit> jav__, well you're basically favoring eliminating a lag of between 0 and 30 seconds over consistency... not a decision i personally would choose
3704 2011-07-16 22:56:01 <jav__> gmaxwell: it will notice that, because it recalculates everything (walks through all your transactions)
3705 2011-07-16 22:56:10 <Lachesis> gmaxwell, there are secure key storage devices out there
3706 2011-07-16 22:56:16 <Lachesis> that you can't _copy_ the key from
3707 2011-07-16 22:56:33 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: yes, they'd have to use your idiot passoword to encrypt a 128 bit random string in a hardened device.
3708 2011-07-16 22:56:34 <Lachesis> you need a TEM to read the internal structures, or so i've been told
3709 2011-07-16 22:56:42 <jav__> phantomcircuit: why am I favoring that? .. you think using bitcoins account feature leads to inconsistency? I don't think so
3710 2011-07-16 22:56:54 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: this is why I said "Engineering around that is hard and they probably didn't."
3711 2011-07-16 22:56:54 <Lachesis> gmaxwell, yes, that's what i'd do - if my idiot password is 6 digits and you only get 10 tries
3712 2011-07-16 22:56:55 <Lachesis> good luck
3713 2011-07-16 22:57:02 <Lachesis> i wouldn't call that _hard_
3714 2011-07-16 22:57:07 <Lachesis> smart cards do it
3715 2011-07-16 22:57:15 <Lachesis> and they're insanely common in some parts of the world
3716 2011-07-16 22:57:16 <makomk> Lachesis: ahahahahahahahaha.
3717 2011-07-16 22:57:17 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: well, it adds considerably to the cost. And the user can't tell if you did it or not.
3718 2011-07-16 22:57:24 <phantomcircuit> jav__, i think it's a lot more likely bitcoind's internal accounting will have an error than a more mature rdbms
3719 2011-07-16 22:57:35 <makomk> Tell me, have you ever heard of a device called a glitcher?
3720 2011-07-16 22:57:42 <Lachesis> gmaxwell, yes, but if you're selling to the government, there are audits everywhere
3721 2011-07-16 22:57:45 <gmaxwell> jav__: seriously, the accounting code is not well tested.
3722 2011-07-16 22:57:57 <Lachesis> _some_ parts of some governments actually care
3723 2011-07-16 22:58:02 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: yes, this is why, e.g. the ironkey product I believe is probably legit.
3724 2011-07-16 22:58:07 <Lachesis> ya
3725 2011-07-16 22:58:15 <Lachesis> no, this corsair one clearly isn't
3726 2011-07-16 22:58:21 <Lachesis> since KEY + 0/1 erases your pin
3727 2011-07-16 22:58:37 <Lachesis> it takes some balls to make a device that will essentially destroy itself after a small number of pin misentries
3728 2011-07-16 22:58:43 <Lachesis> and then sell it for > $100 :)
3729 2011-07-16 22:59:09 briareus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3730 2011-07-16 22:59:10 <makomk> Good way of making money if you ask me.
3731 2011-07-16 22:59:29 <gmaxwell> jav__: I had problems testing the encrpyted wallet code because I kept hitting bugs in the accounts code.
3732 2011-07-16 22:59:45 <kinlo> does anyone what pushpool and/or bitcoin do with the padding in the solution that is submitted?
3733 2011-07-16 22:59:46 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3734 2011-07-16 22:59:57 <kinlo> it's not always zeroes, I wonder why
3735 2011-07-16 23:00:02 <gmaxwell> (and eventually had to apply some patches to fix the accounts codeâ which added another bug where bitcoin wouldn't come up after restart!)
3736 2011-07-16 23:00:20 klikklak has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3737 2011-07-16 23:01:08 <jav__> gmaxwell: that the account code is not well tested might very well be... I'm just saying that from my understanding of the code, the situation you described will be handled correctly .... and furthermore I'm saying that if I reimplement account features externally, I want a proper push-based solution to communicate with bitcoind first
3738 2011-07-16 23:03:38 <phantomcircuit> http://covertinferno.org/~phantomcircuit/mtgox.com/users/login
3739 2011-07-16 23:03:39 <phantomcircuit> lol
3740 2011-07-16 23:03:43 <jav__> which I think is the correct path anyway... drop all the account features and only have a basic data stream that describes new as well as disappearing (because of double-spend) transactions, which can then be used for external accounting and a cleaner separation in the existing code base
3741 2011-07-16 23:03:45 <phantomcircuit> MY GENIUS PHISHING SITE
3742 2011-07-16 23:05:29 <sipa> jav__: i agree
3743 2011-07-16 23:06:49 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3744 2011-07-16 23:13:50 klikklak has joined
3745 2011-07-16 23:15:30 <bliket_> *** MtGox Auto Phisher Activated *** *** Logging in as this*** *** With password lookslegit*** *** Login Successful! *** *** Selling USD for BTC *** *** Order Placed! *** *** Withdrawing BTC *** *** Withdrawal Successful! *** *** Just kidding ***
3746 2011-07-16 23:15:32 <gmaxwell> I like the accounts feature... but it's never going to be reliable without a nice automated testing rig for it.
3747 2011-07-16 23:15:59 <bliket_> wow i typed in my real username and password lol
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3761 2011-07-16 23:50:56 <IO-> whats the best way to test a pool server and how it acts when it finds a block? I'm mining it now and I have it on the testnet but no blocks yet. Is there a way to push one through and simulate it manually?
3762 2011-07-16 23:52:19 Akiron has joined
3763 2011-07-16 23:52:58 <WakiMiko> IO-: its kinda hard to find blocks even on testnet. you could try testnet-in-a-box
3764 2011-07-16 23:53:20 <Akiron> are there any instructions on compiling bitcoind on mac os x out there?
3765 2011-07-16 23:53:46 <b4epoche> Akiron: what you need?
3766 2011-07-16 23:55:03 <Akiron> b4epoche: nothing exactly, just want to play around with it
3767 2011-07-16 23:55:04 <IO-> awesome
3768 2011-07-16 23:55:05 <IO-> thanks
3769 2011-07-16 23:55:07 <IO-> that'll work
3770 2011-07-16 23:55:20 <jgarzik> would be nice if gribble had stats for testnet, as it does for mainnet
3771 2011-07-16 23:55:21 <b4epoche> Akiron: play around with the code, or the binary?
3772 2011-07-16 23:55:28 <jgarzik> I'm curious if the testnet difficult will be going down, or up
3773 2011-07-16 23:55:32 <jgarzik> *difficulty
3774 2011-07-16 23:55:40 <Akiron> b4epoche: the code
3775 2011-07-16 23:56:00 <b4epoche> There are some instructions around and I can help
3776 2011-07-16 23:56:07 <Akiron> b4epoche: but maybe i'm just fuzzy on the differences between the GUI client and bitcoind
3777 2011-07-16 23:56:13 <Zagitta> WakiMiko... problem is that AFAIK the difficulty of testnet in a box is lower than one and pushpool checks if shares are above difficulty 1
3778 2011-07-16 23:56:20 <b4epoche> the biggest issue is getting the dependencies installed
3779 2011-07-16 23:56:28 <Akiron> is there even a seperate bitcoind github project?
3780 2011-07-16 23:56:33 <b4epoche> Akiron: there's really no difference
3781 2011-07-16 23:56:42 <WakiMiko> Zagitta: i have used neither so no idea :P
3782 2011-07-16 23:56:54 <b4epoche> essentially a command line argument is what makes bitcoin bitciond
3783 2011-07-16 23:56:56 <jgarzik> Akiron: they are built from the same source code
3784 2011-07-16 23:57:17 <Akiron> different make files?
3785 2011-07-16 23:57:19 <jgarzik> b4epoche: not quite. bitcoind is a separate binary, without any GUI bits built in.
3786 2011-07-16 23:57:25 <jgarzik> Akiron: no
3787 2011-07-16 23:57:58 <b4epoche> hmm... I never got two binaries :-(
3788 2011-07-16 23:58:04 <WakiMiko> different targets in the makefile
3789 2011-07-16 23:58:55 <Akiron> jgarzik: is there a download of the mac os x bitcoind binary somewhere? i'd prefer to just compile it to learn how to do it, though
3790 2011-07-16 23:59:13 <b4epoche> you can get my binary with a Cocoa GUI
3791 2011-07-16 23:59:23 <b4epoche> but it's really not too hard to compile
3792 2011-07-16 23:59:41 <b4epoche> in fact, bitcoin compiles really easily, it's just the dependencies that can be a headache
3793 2011-07-16 23:59:52 <jgarzik> Akiron: www.bitcoin.org