1 2011-07-18 00:00:05 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  yea, spoofing would be a problem
   2 2011-07-18 00:00:13 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: making decisions like that is also not for normal people— because normal people haven't spent the time learning what the implications are. If they have, then the cost of recompiling (or asking someone to do it for you) is pretty cheap.
   3 2011-07-18 00:00:48 <gavinandresen> b4epoche BlueMatt : ... but a centralized solution for new versions has a bigger failure mode if it is spoofed...
   4 2011-07-18 00:00:49 <gmaxwell> Why not just use the notification code, but just define another kind of notification message type.
   5 2011-07-18 00:00:51 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  like a proof of work to meddle
   6 2011-07-18 00:01:07 <b4epoche> can you sign the version or something?
   7 2011-07-18 00:01:19 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: Yes. And not much of one. (as demonstrated by people posting versions with ill advised changes!)
   8 2011-07-18 00:01:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: true, but thats why it requires x of y sigs of devs, so it is much, much harder to spoof
   9 2011-07-18 00:01:22 brunner has joined
  10 2011-07-18 00:01:55 * BlueMatt -> watches a movie, do not disturb
  11 2011-07-18 00:02:06 WakiMiko has joined
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  13 2011-07-18 00:02:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: mmm...   seems fragile...  I'd rather trust the Crowd than any set of trusted developers
  14 2011-07-18 00:02:27 <gmaxwell> The X,Y don't all have to be the core developers though right? They could be varrious interested parties who are trusted to read the code and nak changes which violate the bitcoin rules.
  15 2011-07-18 00:02:43 <gmaxwell> E.g. give the keys to just about everyone who is trusted not to troll.
  16 2011-07-18 00:02:50 <b4epoche> if you could propagate the signatures via the nodes...
  17 2011-07-18 00:03:19 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: good point but that's still letting the only the compentent modify it wich i'm all for but that also opens up an angle of exploitaion if a powerful enough organization can make enough people switch to their implementation and rules
  18 2011-07-18 00:03:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: meh, even if you use that to figure out if there is a new release, the download script checking dev sigs is still important
  19 2011-07-18 00:04:01 <b4epoche> but people are still going to have to go to a central 'repo' to actually download the new version...
  20 2011-07-18 00:04:04 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: that vulnerablity always exists no matter how easy it is to modify. If (real-)bitcoin is outlawed only outlaws will have bitcoin. ;)
  21 2011-07-18 00:04:17 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: agreed, I'm just thinking about notification-of-new-version-available.
  22 2011-07-18 00:04:22 Cusipzzz has joined
  23 2011-07-18 00:05:43 <b4epoche> someone could sign the version identifier so it couldn't be spoofed, no?
  24 2011-07-18 00:06:19 <WakiMiko> speaking of sigs and new versions, i think the sigs for a new release should be available on bitcoin.org, and not only hidden in forum thread :)
  25 2011-07-18 00:06:34 <gmaxwell> WakiMiko++
  26 2011-07-18 00:06:34 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: yeah okay that example wasn't though and you're right
  27 2011-07-18 00:06:46 <gavinandresen> b4epoche: sure.  "We" could use the built-in alert system to tell people about new releases if "we" wanted to, I just don't like the centralization of decisions like that.
  28 2011-07-18 00:06:47 sgornick has joined
  29 2011-07-18 00:07:01 <spq> why not use the chain for informing about new versions?
  30 2011-07-18 00:07:26 <gmaxwell> because that gunks up the chain, encourages gunking the chain, and isn't any better than the notification procedure.
  31 2011-07-18 00:07:26 <b4epoche> gavinandresen:  but ultimately it will be centralized because there is one client that is being updated
  32 2011-07-18 00:07:27 theorb has joined
  33 2011-07-18 00:07:46 <Zagitta> spq: then you make it the big miners decision when the client is updated right?
  34 2011-07-18 00:07:46 <b4epoche> and there will be one place from which it will originate
  35 2011-07-18 00:07:48 <gavinandresen> b4epoche: ultimately there will be lots of clients...
  36 2011-07-18 00:07:57 <b4epoche> gavinandresen:  that's not what I mean
  37 2011-07-18 00:08:14 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  38 2011-07-18 00:08:14 brunner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  39 2011-07-18 00:08:17 <b4epoche>  /whatever/ client you happen to be using, there will be a source for it
  40 2011-07-18 00:08:21 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  41 2011-07-18 00:08:30 TheZimm has joined
  42 2011-07-18 00:09:21 <gavinandresen> b4epoche: Here's the way I think it could work:  We update the "satoshi" client.  Some critical percentage of people adopt it, which triggers code in the older "satoshi" clients (because they find that more than X% of the other satoshi clients they connect to have a version >than theirs) to prompt the user that an upgrade is available.
  43 2011-07-18 00:09:23 <gmaxwell> There is also the related but seperate issue of validating the the source matches the binary.
  44 2011-07-18 00:10:08 <b4epoche> gavinandresen:  yes, I like that part of it (if you can prevent spoofing)
  45 2011-07-18 00:10:24 <b4epoche> but I think the problem is, what is X?
  46 2011-07-18 00:10:29 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I agressively reconnect to all nodes I can from 63 IPs and make them get a constant stream of notices.. not ideal.
  47 2011-07-18 00:10:55 <gavinandresen> The "I'm a satoshi client at version X.Y" could be signed with a satoshi-client-private-key that the trusted satoshi-client developers have (and put in the "subversion" part of the version message)
  48 2011-07-18 00:10:56 <gmaxwell> It also wouldn't help the situation we have now, with reasonable X, where uptake of an important new version is too slow.
  49 2011-07-18 00:11:21 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: okay, the signing bit solves the sybil attack.
  50 2011-07-18 00:12:08 <b4epoche> if the version is signed then you don't need X at all, no?
  51 2011-07-18 00:12:19 <gmaxwell> Yes, if you want the users to be 'voting' on the change effectively.
  52 2011-07-18 00:12:30 <b4epoche> just, any node with a signed newer version prompts the user about upgrading
  53 2011-07-18 00:12:35 <gavinandresen> hang on, lemme think... signing won't work, I don't think.....
  54 2011-07-18 00:13:01 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: the goal is "how do you do this without making things even more centrally controlled"
  55 2011-07-18 00:13:12 <spq> every different client(like the bitcoin.org client) should have its own private key for signing its version number
  56 2011-07-18 00:13:55 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  the point being that the user would be /prompted/ that a new version is available
  57 2011-07-18 00:14:01 <b4epoche> it wouldn't be forced on them
  58 2011-07-18 00:14:04 <gavinandresen> spq: so we sign the version number... but anybody else can steal that signature and have their code claim to be a genuine satoshi client....
  59 2011-07-18 00:14:05 <gmaxwell> spq: that still increases central control. Right now, if if the satoshi-client developers did something super daft it would not be adopted quickly, and people would complain and it would hardly be adopted at all.
  60 2011-07-18 00:14:14 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  61 2011-07-18 00:14:31 <gmaxwell> spq: with fast notifications, it would probably get deployed much more quickly even if there were bad changes inside.
  62 2011-07-18 00:14:35 <spq> gavinandresen: whats the problem with this?
  63 2011-07-18 00:15:03 <spq> gavinandresen: that sign is only required to not let others make the client think there is a new version
  64 2011-07-18 00:15:08 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  65 2011-07-18 00:15:16 <gmaxwell> Yea, I don't see the problem there.
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  68 2011-07-18 00:16:29 <gavinandresen> Problem would be if we were idiots and released something exploitable, you could sybil and get lots of people to upgrade when they shouldn't
  69 2011-07-18 00:16:46 <gmaxwell> This is why NAK systems are powerful.
  70 2011-07-18 00:17:03 <gmaxwell> Because then only a few parties (perhaps even the original developers) have to realize that the update is exploitable.
  71 2011-07-18 00:17:14 <gmaxwell> Of course, if no one knows then you are screwed regardless.
  72 2011-07-18 00:17:54 <gavinandresen> We do still have the fail-safe alert system for Major Bugs
  73 2011-07-18 00:18:02 <gim> interesting question: should there be a way to ask for shutdown of a specific exploitable version ?
  74 2011-07-18 00:18:08 zeropointo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  75 2011-07-18 00:18:42 <gim> (just an alert is not the same)
  76 2011-07-18 00:18:46 <gmaxwell> So, e.g. you can have a sytem where there are many parties who can sign, and they can do ACK sigs and NAK sigs. And you give the signing rights to everyone who can be trusted to review the code a bit and NAK really bad things, but not NAK for dumb reasons.
  77 2011-07-18 00:19:00 <gmaxwell> gim: no, because then someone can hold a gun to the keyholders head and break all bitcoin. Too risky. :(
  78 2011-07-18 00:19:32 <gmaxwell> Not only is it risky, but no one should want to be a keyholder for that— too likely to get a gun to your head!
  79 2011-07-18 00:19:43 <spq> and it could probably be wanted to still keep the app running - probably for just watching clients or something
  80 2011-07-18 00:22:29 <gmaxwell> Instead, if there was a remote exploit— someone could probably just use that exploit to crash all vulnerable bitcoin.
  81 2011-07-18 00:22:45 <gmaxwell> Thats way better than a backdoor key, since it only exists if its needed.
  82 2011-07-18 00:23:33 <gmaxwell> it would actually be cute to include some normally unreachable function at a known address, so that jumping into it poped up some message that bitcoin was insecure, and shut down bitcoin.:)
  83 2011-07-18 00:23:39 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: new link on the bitcoin.org homepage works nicely, thanks.
  84 2011-07-18 00:24:24 <WakiMiko> what link
  85 2011-07-18 00:24:46 <gavinandresen> WakiMiko: link to "the unofficial bitcoin forums"
  86 2011-07-18 00:25:03 <gmaxwell> Resources -> Forum is still there though. Babysteps.
  87 2011-07-18 00:25:08 <gim> gmaxwell: the function exists, it is called 'Shutdown'
  88 2011-07-18 00:25:14 <WakiMiko> for some reason google returns a blank page
  89 2011-07-18 00:25:41 <gmaxwell> gim: No known address, so it may be harder to actually hit in an exploit, also no nice popup.
  90 2011-07-18 00:26:02 <gim> ok, details :)
  91 2011-07-18 00:26:14 <gmaxwell> It should also set some flag in the data so that bitcoin can't start again without being upgraded. :)
  92 2011-07-18 00:26:30 <WakiMiko> wird it works in chrome but not in firefox
  93 2011-07-18 00:26:45 <gmaxwell> Maybe even store a bitcoin address sent in on the stack for bounty payments. :)
  94 2011-07-18 00:27:35 Sedra is now known as Moussekateer1
  95 2011-07-18 00:27:43 <gmaxwell> The idea being that iff bitcoin is exploitable, exploiting it in a 'friendly' way is an order of magnitude easier than exploiting it in an evil way.
  96 2011-07-18 00:27:43 Moussekateer1 is now known as Sedra
  97 2011-07-18 00:27:49 <WakiMiko> might be a problem of https everywhere i dunno
  98 2011-07-18 00:28:35 noagendamarket has joined
  99 2011-07-18 00:28:51 <b4epoche> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/ still takes me to forums
 100 2011-07-18 00:30:14 brunner has joined
 101 2011-07-18 00:30:26 <b4epoche> oh, that's a premature baby step ;-)
 102 2011-07-18 00:30:45 <gim> and there's also a link to the forums in the 'ressource' panel
 103 2011-07-18 00:31:13 <gmaxwell> FWIW, I've been running my personal online wallet inside valgrind for the last three weeks set to pause on any error. This works fine, after compiling openssl to not screw with uninitilized memory and permitting one bdb uninitilized usage at startup.  Seems like a reasonable security paranoid thing to do.
 104 2011-07-18 00:32:43 zeropointo has joined
 105 2011-07-18 00:32:52 <gmaxwell> At least on a single connected node it's not a performance problem at all.
 106 2011-07-18 00:33:26 <gmaxwell> (too bad the taintcheck valgrind tool hasn't become a mainline thing)
 107 2011-07-18 00:34:18 <gmaxwell> (that allows valgrind to throw an error if data that came in from the network is ever executed, by using the same tracking logic as is used by the uninitilized checking)
 108 2011-07-18 00:35:37 cdecker has joined
 109 2011-07-18 00:36:56 Kiba` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 110 2011-07-18 00:37:09 <gim> what about a security hole in valgrind?
 111 2011-07-18 00:38:00 <gmaxwell> gim: Sure, — this is why monocultures are bad. _everyone_ running that way would suck. Some people running that way create immunity.
 112 2011-07-18 00:38:04 <b4epoche> what about Maxwell's demon?
 113 2011-07-18 00:38:12 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 114 2011-07-18 00:38:40 <gmaxwell> gim: it should be pretty darn tricky to trigger a valgrind security hole from the bitcoin network protocol in any case.
 115 2011-07-18 00:39:48 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 116 2011-07-18 00:39:54 <gmaxwell> Eventually I'll figure out how to make this thing page me when it sees an error, and then if someone tries to exploit and valgrind catches the misbehavior it I can show up here warning everyone.
 117 2011-07-18 00:40:51 <gim> sure, it's a good thing to watch what's going on
 118 2011-07-18 00:40:55 <b4epoche> why not just have it post here directly, skipping the paging?
 119 2011-07-18 00:41:25 <gmaxwell> Hm. Well, I suppose so- at least once I've run a version for long enough to be sure there are no false alarms.
 120 2011-07-18 00:42:04 <gmaxwell> or actually, spamming with false alarms might encourage people to make the software valgrind clean when they break it. ;)
 121 2011-07-18 00:44:18 freewil has joined
 122 2011-07-18 00:44:47 <gmaxwell> There are probably some other operational alerts that should exist.
 123 2011-07-18 00:44:59 <gmaxwell> For example, a healthy node having a deep reorg should alert us right away.
 124 2011-07-18 00:50:04 <b4epoche> we already seem to be notified if luke-jr takes a crap ;-)
 125 2011-07-18 00:50:51 <luke-jr> b4epoche: wtf?
 126 2011-07-18 00:51:09 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't think an alert on every reorg would hurt
 127 2011-07-18 00:51:14 <luke-jr> it happens what, once a day or so?
 128 2011-07-18 00:53:10 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 129 2011-07-18 00:54:11 <gmaxwell> Perhaps... it could log the depth too. Reorgs of depth 1 are pretty boring.
 130 2011-07-18 00:54:24 <gmaxwell> Reorgs of depth 2+ would be pretty inteesting.
 131 2011-07-18 00:54:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Michael Bemmerl master * r6801782 / (2 files): Changed Russian translation according to comment in issue 395 - http://bit.ly/oRaClT https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/680178209651719b73b1f278149c519720ad69d4
 132 2011-07-18 00:54:35 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r993d37b / (2 files): Merge pull request #395 from mibe/issue-395 ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/993d37b90b2bd0c27671cfd53c9fbaa21c47d030
 133 2011-07-18 00:56:10 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r9e3e21e / (2 files): Merge pull request #419 from mibe/translation-de ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/9e3e21efeb52cd91d4507a9e8e07c68bafb65223
 134 2011-07-18 00:59:03 sanchaz has joined
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 139 2011-07-18 01:01:51 gmax-canary has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 140 2011-07-18 01:02:05 gmax-canary has joined
 141 2011-07-18 01:02:18 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
 142 2011-07-18 01:02:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136802 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 285 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 18 hours, 26 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1682293.45418769
 143 2011-07-18 01:06:12 Marf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 144 2011-07-18 01:06:58 <gmaxwell> Is there any reason CXXFLAGS in the makefile can't include $(CXXFLAGS)? It would be nice to be able to build with -fstack-protector-all without changing the makefile.
 145 2011-07-18 01:08:23 eianpsego has joined
 146 2011-07-18 01:09:27 rynx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 147 2011-07-18 01:10:44 <Zagitta> the nonce is an unsigned int right?
 148 2011-07-18 01:12:16 <gmaxwell> It doesn't matter how you parse it.
 149 2011-07-18 01:12:18 <gmaxwell> It's bits
 150 2011-07-18 01:12:38 kudu is now known as kudu|fckyou
 151 2011-07-18 01:12:43 kudu is now known as fckyou!mblair@wikipedia/Waterfox|kudu
 152 2011-07-18 01:13:28 <Zagitta> yeah but i don't care about the data itself, i just need to make sure it's not the same as any of the previous submitted ones
 153 2011-07-18 01:13:28 bliket_ has joined
 154 2011-07-18 01:13:30 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, how's it been
 155 2011-07-18 01:13:53 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: then it doesn't matter which whay you treat it, so long as you're consisten with yourself.
 156 2011-07-18 01:14:00 <gmaxwell> s/whay/way/
 157 2011-07-18 01:14:25 <bliket_> sup gmaxwell
 158 2011-07-18 01:15:47 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 159 2011-07-18 01:15:50 lightcode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 160 2011-07-18 01:17:27 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Test build #11: STILL FAILING in 11 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Test/11/
 161 2011-07-18 01:17:27 <BlueMattBot> * mail: Basically some grammatical fixes of the German translation.
 162 2011-07-18 01:17:28 <BlueMattBot> * mail: Added German wallet encryption messages translation.
 163 2011-07-18 01:17:28 <BlueMattBot> * mail: Changed Russian translation according to comment in issue 395
 164 2011-07-18 01:19:39 lightcode has joined
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 166 2011-07-18 01:21:35 <gmaxwell> er, the bitcoind help makes it sound like dnsseed is not the default still.
 167 2011-07-18 01:21:40 <gmaxwell>   -dns               Allow DNS lookups for addnode and connect
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 172 2011-07-18 01:28:02 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
 173 2011-07-18 01:28:03 <gribble> 136807
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 175 2011-07-18 01:39:40 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 180 2011-07-18 01:49:10 <jaybny> anyone know a good open source financial charting lib?
 181 2011-07-18 01:49:46 pumpkin has joined
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 188 2011-07-18 02:01:43 <BlueMatt> anything exciting I missed?
 189 2011-07-18 02:01:57 <b4epoche> Dr. Strangelove?
 190 2011-07-18 02:02:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: from what Ive seen, -fstack-protector is on by default in debian and probably others (incl ubuntu)
 191 2011-07-18 02:02:35 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: hey, Im working my way back there...
 192 2011-07-18 02:03:15 <sacarlson> from what I see from the IRC server quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer,  who is the peer?  is that the server having a problem or the client?
 193 2011-07-18 02:03:37 <BlueMatt> connection reset by peer means someone along the connection path sent a tcp rst
 194 2011-07-18 02:03:47 <BlueMatt> probably your local router or freenode somehwere
 195 2011-07-18 02:03:59 <BlueMatt> noway to know which w/o a packet dump on your router's wan interface
 196 2011-07-18 02:04:30 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: ok thanks, but some firewall at some point
 197 2011-07-18 02:04:54 <BlueMatt> could be your local tcp stack on your machine, but probably not
 198 2011-07-18 02:04:59 <BlueMatt> seriously it is really hard to tell
 199 2011-07-18 02:05:00 HarryS has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 200 2011-07-18 02:05:47 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well It's not me it's what I see as someone else getting connected and disconected from an irc server
 201 2011-07-18 02:06:28 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I connect fine to the same server irc
 202 2011-07-18 02:06:58 <gim> gmaxwell: probably you already know, but -dns is not related to seeding
 203 2011-07-18 02:07:27 <gim> so it sounds like it doesn't even exist
 204 2011-07-18 02:08:11 HarryS has joined
 205 2011-07-18 02:08:34 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: yea, well its probably some router somewhere, if you are looking at other people, likely their local firewall is rsting the connection for some misguided reason
 206 2011-07-18 02:09:12 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 208 2011-07-18 02:09:26 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: ya I think it's a virtual server that they rented that the guy they rent from closed the port to this irc
 209 2011-07-18 02:09:42 <sacarlson> or never opended it
 210 2011-07-18 02:09:56 <BlueMatt> no, a rst means the connection was already there and a router decided to drop it
 211 2011-07-18 02:10:13 <BlueMatt> though rsts are also often used directly after the syn ack by a fw to block access to a service
 212 2011-07-18 02:10:24 <BlueMatt> but that is misguided and fairly rare
 213 2011-07-18 02:10:38 <BlueMatt> and you wouldnt be able to log in in the first place if that was the case
 214 2011-07-18 02:11:26 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: ya you must be right as his name apears then disapears so it must have handshaked
 215 2011-07-18 02:12:11 <BlueMatt> no, as I said if its a router sending after the syn ack, you cant handshake with the irc server only with its tcp stack
 216 2011-07-18 02:12:12 glitch-mod has joined
 217 2011-07-18 02:12:18 <BlueMatt> aka you wouldnt be able to login or join a channel
 218 2011-07-18 02:12:39 pixglen has joined
 219 2011-07-18 02:12:47 <BlueMatt> that said, rsts are also used by fws who do dpi and want to disconnect after a connection was established
 220 2011-07-18 02:12:56 <BlueMatt> so maybe their router doesnt want them to join the chan
 221 2011-07-18 02:13:05 <BlueMatt> but seriously these are all very, very, very rare scenarios
 222 2011-07-18 02:13:07 <gmaxwell> gim: durrr.
 223 2011-07-18 02:13:18 <BlueMatt> most likely, there is just some connection path issue and a router decides to rst the connection
 224 2011-07-18 02:13:26 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 225 2011-07-18 02:15:27 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: no I think it was my misinterpritation on my part I see as I look at the time they had changed there ip address and then some resets a few times sorry
 226 2011-07-18 02:16:07 <BlueMatt> yes, a router might send a rst if it is changing ip and needs all connections to die so it can change
 227 2011-07-18 02:16:21 <BlueMatt> though I cant say Ive ever seen that, routers rarely know when they are about to change ips...
 228 2011-07-18 02:20:12 <xelister> BlueMatt: I found out that USA is not democratic, intersting talk @ #freenet
 229 2011-07-18 02:20:35 <BlueMatt> exciting, youll pardon me for not caring what you have to say on the matter...
 230 2011-07-18 02:20:41 <BlueMatt> it is 4am
 231 2011-07-18 02:20:47 <xelister> BlueMatt: btw need of free media in semi-democrati systems is also nice use case for freedom of speach in internet =)
 232 2011-07-18 02:21:15 <BlueMatt> I never said there is no use case for freenet, only that there currently isnt a realistic one and/or it is not being used for that
 233 2011-07-18 02:22:32 <xelister> are you implying we all hundrets of active users developing for freenet are using it for your "child porn"?
 234 2011-07-18 02:22:37 * xelister bitchslaps BlueMatt with a big gauntlet :o
 235 2011-07-18 02:22:47 <BlueMatt> didnt say that either
 236 2011-07-18 02:22:51 <xelister> sir, you confused us with catholic church apparently =)
 237 2011-07-18 02:22:56 <xelister> or orphanages.
 238 2011-07-18 02:22:57 <BlueMatt> I said it currently isnt being used for something useful
 239 2011-07-18 02:23:19 <xelister> when last time you review any index of materials in freenet?
 240 2011-07-18 02:23:38 <xelister> books(35)  Blogs(174)
 241 2011-07-18 02:23:38 gruez has joined
 242 2011-07-18 02:23:43 <xelister> Infos(102)
 243 2011-07-18 02:23:53 <xelister> frost first index (say, afk index)
 244 2011-07-18 02:24:23 <b4epoche> wtf is freenet?  some hangout for losers?
 245 2011-07-18 02:24:28 <xelister> actually all 3 main indexes basically ban evil porn, and have hundrets of pages
 246 2011-07-18 02:24:35 <gruez> Lolwut?
 247 2011-07-18 02:24:51 <xelister> b4epoche: http://freenetproject.org/ ||| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet
 248 2011-07-18 02:25:33 gruez has quit (Client Quit)
 249 2011-07-18 02:26:45 <xelister> BlueMatt: it would be wise if you would consider refraining from talking before getting any clue =)  You ask me for other uses - then I respond: hundrets of pages and I in long time didn't see any page with "evil" porn (like cp)
 250 2011-07-18 02:27:09 <luke-jr> all porn is evil
 251 2011-07-18 02:27:28 <BlueMatt> xelister: well considering this is the first time you actually directly responded to that question...
 252 2011-07-18 02:27:29 <b4epoche> wtf is 'evil' porn?
 253 2011-07-18 02:27:30 <xelister> luke-jr: your gf sending you her sexuall photos too?
 254 2011-07-18 02:27:33 <xelister> b4epoche: like cp
 255 2011-07-18 02:27:40 <luke-jr> xelister: yes
 256 2011-07-18 02:28:04 <xelister> BlueMatt: it takes 5 minutes to  freenetproject.org  and then click on the first links you have bookmarked as starting point and notice hundrets of pages.
 257 2011-07-18 02:28:18 <xelister> luke-jr: trololo. Well whatever =) But you are weird...
 258 2011-07-18 02:28:23 <luke-jr> xelister: no u
 259 2011-07-18 02:28:58 <BlueMatt> xelister: in any case, paranoid people using freenet as a glorified discussion board does not quantify a good useage.  Its cool tech and would be really cool if, say, it were used by some political dissedent in china to get the word out.  Then Id really be all-in, but as it stands its really not used for anything useful
 260 2011-07-18 02:29:11 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I dunno about ubuntu but Fedora compiles things with -fstack-protector via the RPM default cflags, not via changes to gcc.
 261 2011-07-18 02:29:19 <xelister> BlueMatt: political dissedents in china ARE using freenet, since like 8 years now.
 262 2011-07-18 02:29:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I only say that because that is what someone else posted on that thread so...
 263 2011-07-18 02:29:41 <xelister> BlueMatt: but how can you know if you even obviously never visited freenet index.    Seriously get a clue please?
 264 2011-07-18 02:29:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I never did too much reading on that
 265 2011-07-18 02:30:14 <BlueMatt> xelister: For some reason I kind of doubt that...in any case tor is still better for that...also its 430 Im going to bed
 266 2011-07-18 02:30:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's probably a bad assumption. I don't have an ubuntu box here to test, but I think that debian page I linked to in the thread has some example code you could try. (a file implementing a bug the stackprotector catches)
 267 2011-07-18 02:30:37 <xelister> BlueMatt: TOR is tottally blocked in chine since ~year.  GET A CLUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE when you wake up :>  D:
 268 2011-07-18 02:31:00 <BlueMatt> xelister: and you think if freenet starts being used it wont be?
 269 2011-07-18 02:31:01 <xelister> all nodes, all bridges are dead in china. well it was to be expecterd.
 270 2011-07-18 02:31:03 <gmaxwell> xelister: Please don't be trolly. There are tens of thousands of tor users in china, they use bridge relays.
 271 2011-07-18 02:31:07 <xelister> BlueMatt: jesus christ
 272 2011-07-18 02:31:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well if you have time, a good test and a pull request would be nice...
 273 2011-07-18 02:31:13 <xelister> BlueMatt: Freenet is ALREADY blocked in china for years
 274 2011-07-18 02:31:24 <BlueMatt> xelister> BlueMatt: political dissedents in china ARE using freenet, since like 8 years now.
 275 2011-07-18 02:31:30 <BlueMatt> now you are contradicting yourself
 276 2011-07-18 02:31:32 <BlueMatt> goodnight
 277 2011-07-18 02:31:35 <xelister> BlueMatt: not at all: Freenet works very good with totally darknet mode
 278 2011-07-18 02:31:51 <gmaxwell> Likewise, tor works well with dark bridges.
 279 2011-07-18 02:31:55 <xelister> so you can block all of Freenet nodes,  and yet people that have friends outside china can use freenet
 280 2011-07-18 02:32:07 <xelister> gmaxwell: no, they are harvested basically all since ~yaer
 281 2011-07-18 02:32:11 <gmaxwell> I'm running a good half dozen of them, all being actively used by people in china, none currently blocked.
 282 2011-07-18 02:32:32 <b4epoche> so who else uses freenet?  a bunch of paranoid freaks?
 283 2011-07-18 02:32:35 <gmaxwell> xelister: they harvested ones in the autodispatch list. The tor project stopped adding new bridges to the auto list due to the harvesting.
 284 2011-07-18 02:32:45 <xelister> gmaxwell: unless you have a friend outside that especially for you opens up a bridge. But Freenet always was about darknet, actually when it first started ~10 years ago it was only darknet.
 285 2011-07-18 02:32:49 <gmaxwell> Now they give blocks of exits to rights orginizations manually.
 286 2011-07-18 02:32:54 <xelister> gmaxwell: so in practice it seems to work out better
 287 2011-07-18 02:33:44 <xelister> bottom line: TOR and I2P always focused on opennet.  Freenet on darknet.  Therefore now Freenet is more unblockable
 288 2011-07-18 02:33:58 <gmaxwell> xelister: haha. No, freenet only went darknet with v7 (but that version was darknet only at start)
 289 2011-07-18 02:34:12 <cjdelisle> old joke re freetor2p, by the time the page loads everyone in the pictures will be over 18
 290 2011-07-18 02:34:13 <xelister> gmaxwell: was 0.5 not darknet? if not then ok, more like 5 years not 10
 291 2011-07-18 02:34:22 <xelister> cjdelisle: lol ;)
 292 2011-07-18 02:34:36 <gmaxwell> It basically killed freenet for several years until opennet support was readded.
 293 2011-07-18 02:34:44 <xelister> gmaxwell: but I was rather sure it later switched to the "new" idea of "also opennet and seedings". I will research
 294 2011-07-18 02:34:49 <xelister> ah ok.
 295 2011-07-18 02:35:08 <xelister> anyway only freenet can work without any networking
 296 2011-07-18 02:35:45 <cjdelisle> I had an idea earlier, suppose we got together and modded a bittorrent client so that it was aware when another client gave it bitcoin and it would unchoke the ones who paid first.
 297 2011-07-18 02:35:47 <gmaxwell> xelister: Yea, older versions were so trivally compromised by sybils (because of no onion routing) they went darknet only to prevent the sybils, but it basically killed the network because 99.99% of everyone was too lazy to get darkpeers, so they reintroducted opennet.
 298 2011-07-18 02:35:55 <xelister> because it is a storage not IP-wrapper, you can as last resort just take a hard-drive with part of Freenet and connect it say inside China or Egypt, even if all outside-of-China connections would be blocked totally
 299 2011-07-18 02:35:57 <gmaxwell> They've still not solved the sybil attack stuff on opennet.
 300 2011-07-18 02:36:14 <gmaxwell> Though they keep waving their arms saying they'll add onion routing to address that someday.
 301 2011-07-18 02:36:25 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 302 2011-07-18 02:36:25 arthurb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 303 2011-07-18 02:36:29 <gmaxwell> I don't blame them— its hard. But regardless, it's not a silver bullet.
 304 2011-07-18 02:36:36 <xelister> gmaxwell: yeap there is none
 305 2011-07-18 02:36:49 <xelister> cool stuff there is some project aiming to combine i2p+tor+freenet sort of
 306 2011-07-18 02:37:10 <xelister> also for secure bitcoin transport ( #btcfn project ) we want to support all 3 eventually
 307 2011-07-18 02:37:26 <gmaxwell> It doesn't help that there is child porn on freenet like three/four clicks away from the index. Really discourages supporters in my own expirence.
 308 2011-07-18 02:37:40 <gmaxwell> Tor had the same problem with the onion wiki too.
 309 2011-07-18 02:37:41 <xelister> gmaxwell: but this is idiotic FUD if you think about it
 310 2011-07-18 02:37:48 <xelister> where is 100% of porn?
 311 2011-07-18 02:37:51 <xelister> actually
 312 2011-07-18 02:37:55 <xelister> where is 100% of child abuse?
 313 2011-07-18 02:38:11 <xelister> where is 100% of child abuse happening? anyone?
 314 2011-07-18 02:38:15 <JFK911> to children
 315 2011-07-18 02:38:20 <JFK911> the solution is simple
 316 2011-07-18 02:38:24 <cjdelisle> Actually no, that is very important, if people see it as a child abuse thing they will not want to help the network and/or develop the code.
 317 2011-07-18 02:38:26 <JFK911> if we kill all the children there will be no more abuse
 318 2011-07-18 02:38:32 <chinaskibit> Awesome
 319 2011-07-18 02:38:33 <xelister> good point JFK911
 320 2011-07-18 02:38:35 <gmaxwell> xelister: well _I_ stopped using freenet, even though I support its mission and continue to run a node without actually using it, simply because it's too easy to just stumble onto really rank child pron with it.
 321 2011-07-18 02:39:02 <b4epoche> JFK911:  that's quite a Modest Proposal
 322 2011-07-18 02:39:05 <xelister> gmaxwell: "stumble upon"? I didnt stumbple into any CP ever. Just do not subscribe groups withe like child-porn in name?? ;)
 323 2011-07-18 02:39:27 <JFK911> b4epoche: well i really cant think any other common denominator for child abuse
 324 2011-07-18 02:39:41 <JFK911> its pretty prevalent on this planet
 325 2011-07-18 02:39:56 <gmaxwell> xelister: well, when I last used it — which was a long time ago, I admit, it was really easy.  You'd follow some link on some secondary index to "Dave's pics" and wham.
 326 2011-07-18 02:40:10 <b4epoche> JFK911:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
 327 2011-07-18 02:40:31 <xelister> gmaxwell: now you see only what you want to see.  Good indexes. Categories. And boards (FMS, Freetalk soon, Sone - twitter like) all are based on webs of trust.  If someone you thought is cool suddenly posts like cp or goatse or shit into your group eng.bitcoin (yea, there is bitcoin group) then you just block him. Probably he will be blocked by others before you see his message too
 328 2011-07-18 02:41:08 sanchaz has joined
 329 2011-07-18 02:41:27 <xelister> gmaxwell: well then Im sorry for that experience. It is NOTHING like that. Since like a year+, dunno what was before. Consider re-trying :)  Super cool stuff nowdays is "Sone" - `Twitter` like freenet thing.  And FMS is the new boards.  Also Freetalk but it will be usable in ~month from now
 330 2011-07-18 02:41:55 <xelister> b4epoche: yo you had some question to me earlier? was bussy
 331 2011-07-18 02:43:10 <xelister> gmaxwell: I was at first also not happy about the existance of CP, but then I thought about it and come to simple conclusion
 332 2011-07-18 02:43:16 <xelister> 100% of child ABUSE happens in real-life
 333 2011-07-18 02:43:38 <xelister> orphanages. churches. most of India. Poor people. etc.
 334 2011-07-18 02:43:59 <b4epoche> Kentucky
 335 2011-07-18 02:44:39 <xelister> if anything will cause child ABUSE it will be bitcoin, not freenet.  With freenet some guys can fap to cp. whatever.  With Bitcoin people can actually ORDER and PAY someone to MAKE a new movie for them, e.g. kidnap a child and abuse it. Now that is scarry as shit.
 336 2011-07-18 02:45:14 <cjdelisle> xelister: The problem is that if the network just has the reputation of being a CP haven, people will shy away from it and will not want to help it. Pedophiles ruin everything.
 337 2011-07-18 02:45:18 <luke-jr> xelister: "it"
 338 2011-07-18 02:45:19 <xelister> am I the only one thinking paying to make say a snuff movie is much scarrier then even dudes fapping to 20 years old the same picture or shit?
 339 2011-07-18 02:45:40 <xelister> cjdelisle: it will happen to EVERY network
 340 2011-07-18 02:45:55 <luke-jr> xelister: guess we need more regulation
 341 2011-07-18 02:45:58 gruez has joined
 342 2011-07-18 02:46:00 <cjdelisle> Yes, every anonymous mix network. It is unfortunate but true.
 343 2011-07-18 02:46:02 <xelister> if FN would die then it would happen to tor (already does imo),  if tor dies then bittorrents and e-mule (already it was the case)
 344 2011-07-18 02:46:07 <xelister> if e-mule does the internet
 345 2011-07-18 02:46:14 <xelister> want stop CP - ban ALL INTERNET
 346 2011-07-18 02:46:21 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 347 2011-07-18 02:46:25 <gruez> Lol
 348 2011-07-18 02:46:30 <cjdelisle> Bittorrent is not anonymous so it's not an issue.
 349 2011-07-18 02:46:32 <luke-jr> s/ban/regulate
 350 2011-07-18 02:46:32 <xelister> but then people will resolve to DVDs lol
 351 2011-07-18 02:46:37 <xelister> so then ban EVERYTHING
 352 2011-07-18 02:46:42 <luke-jr> s/ban/regulate
 353 2011-07-18 02:46:48 <xelister> ok, ban all video recording equpiment...
 354 2011-07-18 02:46:58 <xelister> but then people will instead actually pay to have "real life shows" I bet...
 355 2011-07-18 02:47:04 <xelister> so only choice is to ban....?
 356 2011-07-18 02:47:08 <b4epoche> let's just kill all the people caught with cp, eh?
 357 2011-07-18 02:47:10 <luke-jr> it's simple: when someone is caught, throw em in jail for life
 358 2011-07-18 02:47:14 <luke-jr> b4epoche: or that
 359 2011-07-18 02:47:14 <xelister> to ban ..... ?   (0.01 btc for correct answer)
 360 2011-07-18 02:47:20 <gim> ban the physics laws
 361 2011-07-18 02:47:21 <luke-jr> b4epoche: but not just CP, all porn
 362 2011-07-18 02:47:24 <xelister> gim: nope
 363 2011-07-18 02:47:26 <cjdelisle> *shrug* do you want to understand the nature of the problem?
 364 2011-07-18 02:47:32 <xelister> to ban the children. :}
 365 2011-07-18 02:47:47 <b4epoche> luke-jr:  if that happens, the human race will die
 366 2011-07-18 02:47:52 <luke-jr> b4epoche: nope
 367 2011-07-18 02:47:52 <xelister> why not? everyone would be sterilized at birth. New children made in gov run agencies
 368 2011-07-18 02:48:01 <luke-jr> b4epoche: just atheism
 369 2011-07-18 02:48:03 <xelister> ban children -> and no more child abuse ever.
 370 2011-07-18 02:48:21 <luke-jr> xelister: gov run agencies = child abuse
 371 2011-07-18 02:48:22 <gruez> :/
 372 2011-07-18 02:48:29 <xelister> luke-jr: yeap
 373 2011-07-18 02:48:32 <xelister> as you can see
 374 2011-07-18 02:48:36 <xelister> there is NOTHING that can prevent CP
 375 2011-07-18 02:48:42 <xelister> well ok.  actually helping children
 376 2011-07-18 02:48:44 <luke-jr> just punish it severely
 377 2011-07-18 02:48:47 <xelister> reducing poverty
 378 2011-07-18 02:48:56 gruez has quit (Client Quit)
 379 2011-07-18 02:49:02 <xelister> actually working sociall services, easy access to education
 380 2011-07-18 02:49:09 <xelister> this could almost eliminate child abuse I hope.
 381 2011-07-18 02:49:11 <cjdelisle> That's not the problem. It is a problem but it's not the problem facing FN.
 382 2011-07-18 02:49:19 <xelister> not going after anonymous networks that allow people to speak freely
 383 2011-07-18 02:49:42 <b4epoche> anonymity is killing society
 384 2011-07-18 02:49:43 <xelister> cjdelisle: 100% of CP and child ABUSE happens in real-life. This is where efforst should be made.
 385 2011-07-18 02:49:53 <cjdelisle> FN allows people to speak freely and anonymously without control so they act like jackasses.
 386 2011-07-18 02:50:20 <xelister> b4epoche: in USA (democacy ;) guy records police overusing it's power. For that, he gets beaten by police and his phone confiscated. Lots of such stories.
 387 2011-07-18 02:50:25 ar4s has joined
 388 2011-07-18 02:50:37 <xelister> cjdelisle: you can easly select who you want to listen, who to trust
 389 2011-07-18 02:50:44 <luke-jr> xelister: I have those stories personally.
 390 2011-07-18 02:50:48 <b4epoche> wow, this channel brings out the paranoids
 391 2011-07-18 02:51:05 <xelister> b4epoche: sometimes people are crazy, sometimes just the world is.
 392 2011-07-18 02:51:28 <xelister> luke-jr: what story is that?
 393 2011-07-18 02:51:28 <b4epoche> some people deserve to be beaten by police
 394 2011-07-18 02:51:45 <luke-jr> xelister: can't say, or I'll be abused again! ;)
 395 2011-07-18 02:51:48 <cjdelisle> Tor same, people use tor to troll and spam. People use freenet/i2p/.onion to look at horrific pictures. Nobody wants to support this so these netwirks never gain traction.
 396 2011-07-18 02:51:55 <xelister> b4epoche: people are beaten by police for recording police's corruption and overusing power etc.
 397 2011-07-18 02:52:06 <xelister> cjdelisle: people use bitcoin do get high
 398 2011-07-18 02:52:15 <xelister> and to ORDER actuall real-life child abuse
 399 2011-07-18 02:52:19 <cjdelisle> Yea but getting high is not bad.
 400 2011-07-18 02:52:31 <xelister> cjdelisle: it is according to laws
 401 2011-07-18 02:52:39 <cjdelisle> Smoking doap is a personal decision and most people don't care how you decide.
 402 2011-07-18 02:52:45 <b4epoche> xelister:  so, where you from and how old are you?
 403 2011-07-18 02:52:45 <cjdelisle> *dope
 404 2011-07-18 02:53:48 <xelister> b4epoche: how is that relevant
 405 2011-07-18 02:53:59 <xelister> cjdelisle: well in usa you go to prison for that
 406 2011-07-18 02:54:06 <b4epoche> it would likely explain a whole lot
 407 2011-07-18 02:54:19 <cjdelisle> All I'm trying to tell you is why tor/i2p/fn cannot and will never gain any traction.
 408 2011-07-18 02:54:43 <xelister> b4epoche: you start to sound like someone that has nothing to stay and would like to start some missguided ad hominem
 409 2011-07-18 02:55:16 <xelister> cjdelisle: nowdays even developers of software are being arrested
 410 2011-07-18 02:55:22 <b4epoche> okay, that says, I'm not a native English speaker...  and I'm guessing you're like what, 17?
 411 2011-07-18 02:55:27 <cjdelisle> link?
 412 2011-07-18 02:56:59 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 413 2011-07-18 02:57:00 <xelister> cjdelisle: can't find it now in english.
 414 2011-07-18 02:57:07 <xelister> cjdelisle: will soon.
 415 2011-07-18 02:57:21 <cjdelisle> All I'm telling you is that for the average joe who has to decide between a tyranical government and supporting a network which is widely used by pedophiles who don't even hide what they do... Joe is going to side with the government.
 416 2011-07-18 02:58:04 <cjdelisle> That is why those networks will never amount to anything, you don't have to like it, it's just the cold truth.
 417 2011-07-18 02:58:04 <xelister> cjdelisle: the joe is idiot because in the end bad government that throws people in jail like say in china will harm his children more then some dude fapping off to 20 years old picture
 418 2011-07-18 02:58:05 <b4epoche> anything that's truly anonymous will always spiral into the gutter...
 419 2011-07-18 02:58:28 <pixglen> please help test my new bitcoin exchange -- RESTful JSON API -- http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29057.0
 420 2011-07-18 02:58:28 <xelister> cjdelisle: what will hurt your children more
 421 2011-07-18 02:58:49 <xelister> 1) government that can arrest people for whatever like it happens in china and dissapear peoples by thousands etc etc
 422 2011-07-18 02:59:01 <xelister> 2) some old guy fapping away in his basement
 423 2011-07-18 02:59:12 <cjdelisle> I'm not taking a position on it, all I'm trying to do it help you understand that right or wrong, the opinion of John Q Public is the law.
 424 2011-07-18 03:00:16 <xelister> is the actuall truth is (1) - throwing people in jails and murdering them - is worse then (2) someone fapping in his home to some old photo
 425 2011-07-18 03:00:39 samr7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 426 2011-07-18 03:00:45 <xelister> then if people are allowing to make laws that lead them closer to the like-china hell... seem to be idiots.
 427 2011-07-18 03:00:55 <senseles> what?
 428 2011-07-18 03:00:58 <senseles> i missed something
 429 2011-07-18 03:01:00 <b4epoche> cjdelisle:  he's hopeless...  just let time prove you're correct
 430 2011-07-18 03:01:05 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 431 2011-07-18 03:01:20 <cjdelisle> It doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what you think, it only matters what the average person thinks.
 432 2011-07-18 03:01:28 <xelister> b4epoche: ad hominem so soon? try using arguments
 433 2011-07-18 03:01:29 <senseles> the tried to use the pedophile arguement before
 434 2011-07-18 03:01:34 <senseles> to completely regulate and shut down the web
 435 2011-07-18 03:01:36 <senseles> it didn't work
 436 2011-07-18 03:01:39 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 437 2011-07-18 03:02:17 <b4epoche> xelister:  you don't seem to understand anyone's argument...  so it's pointless.
 438 2011-07-18 03:02:19 <xelister> senseles: who did?  anyway this argument IS in fact use now in Australia, to completly regulate their internet. And it "works". By blocking moslty sites that have nothing to do with CP, but like politician opposition sites and so on
 439 2011-07-18 03:02:28 <senseles> Oh, australia? you guys are fucked
 440 2011-07-18 03:02:37 <senseles> Australia is so hopeless for internet freedom
 441 2011-07-18 03:02:45 <senseles> It's as bad as china
 442 2011-07-18 03:02:49 <xelister> yeap
 443 2011-07-18 03:03:19 vigilyn has joined
 444 2011-07-18 03:03:30 <xelister> b4epoche: your argument that "anything that's truly anonymous will always spiral into the gutter..." is PROVEN wrong by the facts
 445 2011-07-18 03:03:34 <b4epoche> maybe they'll at least have a carbon tax soon
 446 2011-07-18 03:03:37 <cjdelisle> Alternatively you might consider building a network which is anonymous enough that massive data harvesting is not feasable but routing out real bad guys is. That is something that the public would be on board with.
 447 2011-07-18 03:03:55 <xelister> cjdelisle: routing out why? to stop them from doing what? fapping?
 448 2011-07-18 03:04:11 <b4epoche> xelister:  that can't be proven wrong you idiot...  it's too vague
 449 2011-07-18 03:04:13 RenaKunisaki has joined
 450 2011-07-18 03:04:15 <nanotube> how is all this -dev material?
 451 2011-07-18 03:04:30 <b4epoche> howdy nanotube
 452 2011-07-18 03:04:34 <nanotube> heya b4epoche :)
 453 2011-07-18 03:04:46 <senseles> I find it funny though
 454 2011-07-18 03:04:57 <senseles> the AUD is almost parity with USD
 455 2011-07-18 03:05:00 <cjdelisle> Well, heh it's -dev material but perhaps not #bitcoin-dev material as much as it is #anon-mix-net-dev materisl ;)
 456 2011-07-18 03:05:01 <xelister> nanotube: how should bitcoin project relate to other anonymous networking, how should it use it. And is it good or bad
 457 2011-07-18 03:05:05 <senseles> yet you guys still have to pay 10-20% more for a video game
 458 2011-07-18 03:05:08 samr7 has joined
 459 2011-07-18 03:05:10 <b4epoche> just fun arguing...  I like to keep my argumentative skills sharp with people who don't understand anything
 460 2011-07-18 03:05:15 <senseles> then ontop of that the government requires a cut down version of the game
 461 2011-07-18 03:05:18 <senseles> with all the gore removed
 462 2011-07-18 03:05:19 <senseles> lol.
 463 2011-07-18 03:05:31 <senseles> l4d2 in AU = not fun
 464 2011-07-18 03:05:53 <xelister> b4epoche: well you are not following facts
 465 2011-07-18 03:05:58 <senseles> instead of bullets your gun shoots butterflys at the enemy ~
 466 2011-07-18 03:06:09 jaybny has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 467 2011-07-18 03:06:17 <xelister> b4epoche: fact: if you use freenet normally. e.g. do not search it for CP, you will not find there CP
 468 2011-07-18 03:06:17 <b4epoche> if 'gore' makes things fun then you're fucked up
 469 2011-07-18 03:06:32 <senseles> im supposed to be killing zombies
 470 2011-07-18 03:06:41 <cjdelisle> yea, everyone agrees that Gore is boring.
 471 2011-07-18 03:06:42 <senseles> there should be gore, and lots of it
 472 2011-07-18 03:06:54 <cjdelisle> no, we really need less Gore
 473 2011-07-18 03:06:55 <b4epoche> nanotube:  how's your summer going?
 474 2011-07-18 03:06:55 <xelister> b4epoche: another fact, anonymous chats and sites are heaving excelent level of discussion. The good boards. There are also boards that talk about bitcoin, 4chan and whatever. YOU choose what you listen to.
 475 2011-07-18 03:08:24 infinitev has quit (Quit: byeee)
 476 2011-07-18 03:09:19 <nanotube> b4epoche: nothing exciting. :)
 477 2011-07-18 03:09:21 RenaKunisaki has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 478 2011-07-18 03:09:23 <cjdelisle> Idea: Suppose we integrated bitcoin into a bittorrent engine so that people could pay to leech and seedboxes would get paid to seed?
 479 2011-07-18 03:10:31 <xelister> cjdelisle: what if people use it to get cp?  say fn was destroyed and all cp is on torrents.
 480 2011-07-18 03:10:36 RenaKunisaki has joined
 481 2011-07-18 03:10:52 <cjdelisle> xelister: won't happen because bittorrent is not anonymous
 482 2011-07-18 03:11:17 <cjdelisle> and even if it does, people understand that *we* are not responsable because we are not protecting their identity.
 483 2011-07-18 03:11:24 <RenaKunisaki> dammit does gribble really need to highlight me every time I reconnect
 484 2011-07-18 03:11:32 <xelister> cjdelisle: it is quite anon when used correctly
 485 2011-07-18 03:11:52 <cjdelisle> bittorrent isn't.. ip address.
 486 2011-07-18 03:12:10 <xelister> shell. vpn. etc.
 487 2011-07-18 03:12:16 <xelister> even without tor and i2p
 488 2011-07-18 03:12:30 <cjdelisle> dead horse is dead
 489 2011-07-18 03:12:53 Zagitta has joined
 490 2011-07-18 03:13:03 <cjdelisle> I'm interested in this because it would create a million or so more owners of btc, that would help stabilize the price.
 491 2011-07-18 03:13:36 <xelister> that easly get traded and arrested because btc is tracable. btw wonder when this happens to SR
 492 2011-07-18 03:13:41 <cjdelisle> Like a stimulus package except not just printing borrowed money.
 493 2011-07-18 03:14:26 <cjdelisle> Nobody cares about bittorrent, it is socially acceptable to download movies for your own education.
 494 2011-07-18 03:16:14 <cjdelisle> It would probably drive the cost of a transaction through the roof because of the block size limit
 495 2011-07-18 03:16:54 <xelister> new uses for btc are a very good idea, cjdelisle
 496 2011-07-18 03:18:11 <cjdelisle> thx. I still don't know how the chain would handle an onslaught of tiny transactions. It must be documented somewhere, God forbid I have to read the code.
 497 2011-07-18 03:19:16 <xelister> you could use some payments system
 498 2011-07-18 03:19:27 <cjdelisle> centralization is :(
 499 2011-07-18 03:20:48 <eianpsego> Likely a atupid question - is there a way to get something akin to javadocs from the current source code?
 500 2011-07-18 03:20:49 sanchaz has joined
 501 2011-07-18 03:20:53 <eianpsego> stupid*
 502 2011-07-18 03:21:32 osmosis has joined
 503 2011-07-18 03:22:11 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 504 2011-07-18 03:23:05 magn3ts_ has joined
 505 2011-07-18 03:23:46 <gmaxwell> xelister: the internet is part of real life too. Somehow drawing some crazy line between "real life" and "the internet" is a very warped perspective.
 506 2011-07-18 03:24:28 <nanotube> fwiw, i think getting bitcoin 'compatible' with existing anonymizing networks is a good idea. never hurts to have that option "just in case"
 507 2011-07-18 03:26:10 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 508 2011-07-18 03:26:19 <nanotube> cjdelisle: bitcoin won't handle millions of 'microtransactions'. the fees will make them too expensive in short order.
 509 2011-07-18 03:26:32 <xelister> gmaxwell: I ment that if politicians would be REALLY about protecting children,  they would do better education. Reduce poverty. Reduse child abuse in schools. Make laws to have every child in orphanage access to 3 consultants weekly and free to report any abuse, and hold staff accountable with jailtime
 510 2011-07-18 03:27:19 <xelister> gmaxwell: if instead politicians go after destroying freedom of speach because "there are also dudes fapping off to old pictures!!111" then children safety is not their primary concern or reason
 511 2011-07-18 03:27:30 <cjdelisle> thanks nano
 512 2011-07-18 03:27:40 <nanotube> xelister: of course it's not, getting reelected is. that's how it works.
 513 2011-07-18 03:27:41 <cjdelisle> that means some kind of alternate chain :(
 514 2011-07-18 03:27:53 <nanotube> cjdelisle: yes... or using some kind of middleman transaction processor
 515 2011-07-18 03:28:00 <xelister> heaving said all above, for long time in freenet you do NOT stumble into cp - unless you seek it.  So fell free to retry anytime, it takes 5 minutes  and duded @ #freenet will help - or poke me
 516 2011-07-18 03:28:09 <cjdelisle> centralization doesn't work, esp. with bittorrent ;)
 517 2011-07-18 03:28:23 <nanotube> haha well, i mean something like mybitcoin
 518 2011-07-18 03:28:28 <xelister> cjdelisle: solution could be payments to small hubs of peers and they micropay eachother
 519 2011-07-18 03:28:41 <xelister> yea like amny small mybitcoins between accounts or clusters of peers
 520 2011-07-18 03:28:57 <luke-jr> nanotube: s/mybitcoin/MtGox
 521 2011-07-18 03:28:58 <xelister> or, OT-like system.
 522 2011-07-18 03:29:00 <xelister> OT
 523 2011-07-18 03:29:09 <nanotube> luke-jr: yea, same picture :)
 524 2011-07-18 03:29:09 <xelister> OT - Open Transactions - like bitcoin but backed up by anything, instant transactions. Higher anonimity
 525 2011-07-18 03:29:19 <luke-jr> nanotube: except MtGox doesn't have bugs that result in stolen funds :P
 526 2011-07-18 03:29:23 <xelister> also there is ripple system, it could be backed up by bitcoins
 527 2011-07-18 03:29:27 <gmaxwell> nanotube: it's not correct to say "the fees will make it too expensive" since that has a simple answer "reduce the fees", the reason bitcoin isn't a micropayment system is because it's a broadcast everywhere system.
 528 2011-07-18 03:29:41 <nanotube> luke-jr: /me has stayed away from mybitcoin... so dunno anything abou tit
 529 2011-07-18 03:30:00 jimon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 530 2011-07-18 03:30:09 <cjdelisle> I don't think anyont here knows about tit
 531 2011-07-18 03:30:20 jimon has joined
 532 2011-07-18 03:30:26 <gmaxwell> Ripple in a backed by bitcoin mode could be a reasonable micropayment system.
 533 2011-07-18 03:30:39 <luke-jr> I know people don't get their payouts from my pool and assume it's my fault
 534 2011-07-18 03:34:18 <Zagitta> speaking of that luke
 535 2011-07-18 03:34:35 <Zagitta> you really should make the warning in the thread in big letters and red font :p
 536 2011-07-18 03:35:43 <sacarlson> how many confirms are needed in bitcoind before recieved funds can be sent?
 537 2011-07-18 03:37:15 <gmaxwell> Zero.
 538 2011-07-18 03:37:40 <xelister> gmaxwell: it can they rquire bigger txfee?
 539 2011-07-18 03:38:07 <gmaxwell> xelister: It'll have a priority of zero, which is less than 510,000 so it will ask for a 0.0005 fee.
 540 2011-07-18 03:38:15 Joric has joined
 541 2011-07-18 03:38:23 <eianpsego> Is there some type of intermediary documentation between the bitcoin paper and the source code?  I think I need a design sketch of these classes...
 542 2011-07-18 03:38:42 <gmaxwell> eianpsego: come on, the whole client is 20kloc. Read the source.
 543 2011-07-18 03:39:41 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, I've done a bunch of dev work in Java - is there something like javadocs for C++
 544 2011-07-18 03:39:50 <xelister> gmaxwell: btw, this calculation stems should be listed in the json error when too small tx fee imo, informative :)
 545 2011-07-18 03:39:57 <eianpsego> gmaxwell, do most people just grep through this stuff?
 546 2011-07-18 03:40:01 <xelister> eianpsego: yea there are.. google it
 547 2011-07-18 03:40:13 <xelister> eianpsego: grapping throu bitcoin source works overall
 548 2011-07-18 03:40:32 <cjdelisle> I wish I could transfer btc to an alt chain and back without having to trust someone :(
 549 2011-07-18 03:40:41 <eianpsego> xelister - thanks
 550 2011-07-18 03:42:40 <cjdelisle> you could do an exchange by making the alt chain not complete it's transaction until the main chain has completed it's but that's an exchange which the other tokens won't be on parody :/
 551 2011-07-18 03:43:35 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: you could just escrow on both sides.
 552 2011-07-18 03:43:46 <cjdelisle> mm re trust someone
 553 2011-07-18 03:44:01 <gmaxwell> No, blockchain escrow.
 554 2011-07-18 03:44:21 <cjdelisle> please elaborate?
 555 2011-07-18 03:45:10 <cjdelisle> or is this something that I should be RTFMing?
 556 2011-07-18 03:45:27 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/commit/dc2dfbab6a0f75070fc3b962da4eb2967e9659df
 557 2011-07-18 03:46:49 <cjdelisle> wow, I will have to read over that carefully, it looks pretty complex, like secret sharing type algo.
 558 2011-07-18 03:47:16 <gmaxwell> ...
 559 2011-07-18 03:47:23 <gmaxwell> It's not complex.
 560 2011-07-18 03:49:23 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: that is a brilliant system
 561 2011-07-18 03:49:37 Joric has quit ()
 562 2011-07-18 03:49:38 <gmaxwell> It's part of the original bitcoin design, it just hasn't had a UI.
 563 2011-07-18 03:50:15 <cjdelisle> ahh, now I see why it works. I thought it was hacked into the system somehow.
 564 2011-07-18 03:50:41 <Zagitta> Sathosis was a brilliant man/women then
 565 2011-07-18 03:51:14 <gmaxwell> This is by far not the most clever thing a transaction can do, though perhaps it's the most useful clever thing.
 566 2011-07-18 03:51:27 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 567 2011-07-18 03:51:55 <cjdelisle> I am very interested, safe interblockchain transfers while maintaining parody is a massive killer app, it removes almost all backward compatability concerns. With that we can literally do anything.
 568 2011-07-18 03:52:38 <cjdelisle> well... we can't change the rate of generation, that's about it though
 569 2011-07-18 03:52:56 <cjdelisle> bbiab
 570 2011-07-18 03:53:15 <gmaxwell> Not sure what you consider competing chains an asset— they're a liability. but whatever.
 571 2011-07-18 03:55:31 <Zagitta> I wonder if DRM could be attatched to transactions
 572 2011-07-18 03:56:09 somuchwin2 has joined
 573 2011-07-18 03:56:10 <Zagitta> that way people would be able to transfer their rights to that piece of music without being able to multiply it
 574 2011-07-18 03:56:33 somuchwin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 575 2011-07-18 03:57:48 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 576 2011-07-18 04:02:16 * Zarutian checks this channel, sees DRM (digital restriction management, the other thing is a forward backronym) and decides to read a bit back.
 577 2011-07-18 04:03:46 <senseles> i dont see why drm is necessary
 578 2011-07-18 04:03:49 <senseles> i pay for my stuff
 579 2011-07-18 04:03:53 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: you'd want to use a bound alternative blockchain for that, but sure.
 580 2011-07-18 04:03:57 <gmaxwell> "deedchain"
 581 2011-07-18 04:03:57 <senseles> i dont share it
 582 2011-07-18 04:04:10 <senseles> i dont see why i should be restricted because of what other users are doing :/
 583 2011-07-18 04:04:31 <Zagitta> i agree senseles but it just crossed my mind
 584 2011-07-18 04:04:42 <gmaxwell> senseles: well, what if there was an advisory drm system that only warned you "hey, looks like you're about to break the law. Are you sure? [abort] [go ahead] [transfer deed]"?
 585 2011-07-18 04:04:46 <Zagitta> sound like a better idea gmaxwell
 586 2011-07-18 04:05:00 <senseles> still, it's just going to cause more issues
 587 2011-07-18 04:05:08 <senseles> everytime i heard DRM i think back to that one news story i read
 588 2011-07-18 04:05:17 <senseles> where a company was giving out the crack for the program because the DRM was so screwed up
 589 2011-07-18 04:05:25 <senseles> i cant remember what game it was....
 590 2011-07-18 04:05:28 <senseles> bioshock?
 591 2011-07-18 04:05:36 <Zagitta> that was battlefield something i think
 592 2011-07-18 04:06:00 <gmaxwell> I dunno, personally I think that providing user friendly DRM (e.g. ones that just warned you about the rules) would do a lot to remove excuses for nasty user unfriendly DRM. ::shrugs:: kinda OT for here though, beyond the fact that you could use a bitcoin like blockchain to handle ownership transfers.
 593 2011-07-18 04:06:49 <Zagitta> the reason i talked about transfer of DRM is that used game sales for example are an important part of console games
 594 2011-07-18 04:07:35 <senseles> couldnt someone just modify their program to say "hey ive got ownership of this"
 595 2011-07-18 04:07:42 <senseles> where is the authority that is going to verify that ownership?
 596 2011-07-18 04:07:57 <senseles> you still have to download the content from a central source
 597 2011-07-18 04:08:10 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 598 2011-07-18 04:08:25 <senseles> if the content is p2p bitcoin style wouldnt every user would have the data on their system already
 599 2011-07-18 04:08:29 <senseles> like the transaction log?
 600 2011-07-18 04:08:32 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 601 2011-07-18 04:08:35 <senseles> i just dont see how it can be secure
 602 2011-07-18 04:08:40 <Zagitta> haven't figured that part out yet
 603 2011-07-18 04:09:01 <senseles> i think the best thing is to just tell artistis to stop the expensive cocain habbits
 604 2011-07-18 04:09:02 <gmaxwell> senseles: Yes, you can always modify programs to ignore restrictions.
 605 2011-07-18 04:09:05 <senseles> and to get a real job
 606 2011-07-18 04:09:12 <gmaxwell> But thats true of all DRM systems.
 607 2011-07-18 04:09:24 <gmaxwell> senseles: You don't have to have all the data for a bitcoin like system.
 608 2011-07-18 04:09:25 <senseles> artist is short of "lazy son of a bitch who doesnt want to get a job or do something constructive"
 609 2011-07-18 04:09:42 <Zagitta> and programmers who program games are?
 610 2011-07-18 04:09:43 Beremat has joined
 611 2011-07-18 04:09:49 <cjdelisle> re competing chains, the reason is because the existing chain can't support millions of micropayment transfers and perhaps a new chain could be built which worked differently in that regard. I realize though that without an alt cryptocoin (which I don't want), the alt chain would not be able to be supported by traditioal mining.
 612 2011-07-18 04:09:59 <senseles> programmers are also lazy
 613 2011-07-18 04:10:04 <senseles> im one, so i can attest to that
 614 2011-07-18 04:10:42 <Zagitta> lazy but with a "real" job yet they're also artists in a sense thus violating your stupid argument
 615 2011-07-18 04:10:49 <senseles> in regards to art it's just unreasonable to think that you can keep your work secure
 616 2011-07-18 04:10:58 <senseles> if someone can hear it, they can play it themselves
 617 2011-07-18 04:11:04 <senseles> if someone can see it, they can recreate it themselves
 618 2011-07-18 04:11:12 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: the whole bitcoin security model can't support micropayments. It's not something a simple altchain can solve.
 619 2011-07-18 04:11:47 <copumpkin> cause they would flood it?
 620 2011-07-18 04:11:49 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: You should see the ripple + bitcoin thread on the forum. In that there is discussions about a method that could be used for fast transactions and micropayments.
 621 2011-07-18 04:11:50 <Zagitta> senseles: i agree to a certain degree but that doesn't mean you should make it easy to recreate
 622 2011-07-18 04:12:06 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: yes, because the security depends on txn being globally visible.
 623 2011-07-18 04:12:12 <copumpkin> yeah
 624 2011-07-18 04:12:21 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=28565
 625 2011-07-18 04:12:27 sacarlson has joined
 626 2011-07-18 04:12:32 <senseles> it just seems to me that they spend billions of $
 627 2011-07-18 04:12:40 <senseles> to protect a program or video from 1 user
 628 2011-07-18 04:12:50 <senseles> who takes that video/game and puts it online
 629 2011-07-18 04:13:04 <senseles> IMO it'd be easier to go after distribution and release groups
 630 2011-07-18 04:13:05 <gmaxwell> The idea there is that you use a secondary network that secures promises to pay in a manner which involves (semi-)trusted parties (unlike bitcoin which is zero trust), and then you periodically settle back to bitcoin.
 631 2011-07-18 04:13:43 <senseles> find where the group hangs on IRC, log their ips, file a civil trial against them
 632 2011-07-18 04:13:46 <Zagitta> senseles: come to think of it, some smart CEO of a company recently said that piracy is only the sympthoms of a problem
 633 2011-07-18 04:14:10 <senseles> ya, everyone wants something for free
 634 2011-07-18 04:14:17 <senseles> that symptom has been around since the creation of our race
 635 2011-07-18 04:14:32 <senseles> steal someone else's fruit or climb the tree to get your own
 636 2011-07-18 04:14:34 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: interesting, I have to read it.
 637 2011-07-18 04:14:34 <senseles> no brainer
 638 2011-07-18 04:14:46 <senseles> er problem*
 639 2011-07-18 04:15:35 <Zagitta> senseles: well that too but what he said is that the reason a lot of people pirate is because there's no easy system in place where you can get movies on release as you can with pirated movies
 640 2011-07-18 04:15:55 <senseles> ah, he was saying that because they restrict it to theaters only?
 641 2011-07-18 04:16:08 <senseles> theaters are going to go the way of newspapers ..
 642 2011-07-18 04:16:21 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: e.g. [bank 1] trusts me for up to 1btc, you trust [bank 2] upto 10 btc, the two banks trust each other for up to 100 btc.  So I want to pay you 0.5 btc _now_, so I promise to pay [bank 1] which promises to pay [bank 2] which promises to pay you. If I renig, then it's only bank 1 that gets screwed. Every once in a while, everyone trues up their standing balance in bitcoin. So you might only have one bitcoin TXN per week from each pa
 643 2011-07-18 04:16:35 <Zagitta> and because there's no easy online renting system wich has a big selection of movies
 644 2011-07-18 04:16:42 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: and with ripple the "banks" could just be frinds who trust each other, ripple finds paths through the system.
 645 2011-07-18 04:16:53 <cjdelisle> ahh very good
 646 2011-07-18 04:17:27 <gmaxwell> and if parties move btc back and forth often (like bank 1 and bank 2 might) then there may never be a btc transaction between them at all.
 647 2011-07-18 04:17:48 <gmaxwell> (because they are constantly equalizing their debts with other debts)
 648 2011-07-18 04:18:29 <Zagitta> senseles: also look at itunes, there's a reason their online music store is so popular, easy access to lots of music
 649 2011-07-18 04:19:21 <cjdelisle> haha how soon we invent the line of credit :P
 650 2011-07-18 04:20:13 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: indeed, but you can do neat stuff like make sure that all credit is backed by a bitcoin transaction.
 651 2011-07-18 04:20:46 <cjdelisle> indeed and there is really no reason why nodes need not settle up every 10 minutes
 652 2011-07-18 04:21:23 <cjdelisle> and that would indeed solve my bittorrent usecase
 653 2011-07-18 04:21:33 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: e.g. if bank 1 doesn't trust me much, then it can demand that when I ask it to pay bank 2 that I provide it with evidence of willingness to pay in the form of a bitcoin transaction paying it with an nlocktime set in the future (a post dated check, if you will). If my balance with the bank changes I can update the transaction.
 654 2011-07-18 04:22:16 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: well, settling too fast doesn't suppress enough blockchain activity. But sure, people can choose the right settlement time based on their trust and the bitcoin fees.
 655 2011-07-18 04:22:27 <cjdelisle> you can do post dated transactions?!
 656 2011-07-18 04:22:47 <gmaxwell> Yes, nLockTime— you can set the earliest point in time that a transaction can be mined.
 657 2011-07-18 04:23:05 * cjdelisle must read the code carefully
 658 2011-07-18 04:23:09 <gmaxwell> (you can't set a latest one, because of some unfortunate security interactions)
 659 2011-07-18 04:25:08 <gmaxwell> So yea, with the ripple processing I was talking about you can even have it so that all promises to pay are actually backed by bitcoin transactions— but normally those transactions are not released to the blockchain, they just keep getting updated from time to time to reflect the new balance.
 660 2011-07-18 04:25:54 <cjdelisle> ahh I see
 661 2011-07-18 04:27:05 <cjdelisle> erm, if Alice owes Bob 10$ and Bob owes Charlie 10$ can Bob just tell Alice to pay Charlie?
 662 2011-07-18 04:28:13 <gmaxwell> I don't think thats how ripple is currently designed. Dunno if it could be made to do that. Part of the core idea in the design is that if anyone cheats the only person who gets screwed is that party who trusted the cheater.
 663 2011-07-18 04:28:15 <senseles> itunes needs to be replaced
 664 2011-07-18 04:28:19 <senseles> i use to buy stuff off itunes
 665 2011-07-18 04:28:22 <senseles> but their database is comprimised
 666 2011-07-18 04:28:30 <senseles> my account had like 1000$ of fraud charges on it for apps and crap
 667 2011-07-18 04:28:39 <senseles> and i know that it wasnt my computer with a virus or something
 668 2011-07-18 04:29:01 <senseles> as; if someone did hack my system there are tons of more valuable things on here than my itunes acct
 669 2011-07-18 04:29:01 <senseles> heh
 670 2011-07-18 04:29:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's an interesting twist on normal ripple which fails because you can never actually redeem the original ripple
 671 2011-07-18 04:29:15 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 672 2011-07-18 04:29:39 <gmaxwell> Yea, that whole thread on the forum caused me to have a better impression of ripple.
 673 2011-07-18 04:29:40 <senseles> (plus, i didnt find anything when scanning)
 674 2011-07-18 04:29:53 <gmaxwell> Useless on its own, but perhaps useful as a fast transaction processing front end on bitcoin.
 675 2011-07-18 04:30:27 <senseles> i dont understand why someone would want to pass around debt
 676 2011-07-18 04:30:35 <senseles> the whole idea of ripple seems kind of backwards
 677 2011-07-18 04:30:45 <senseles> if people need money; then what they really need is a job
 678 2011-07-18 04:30:58 <gmaxwell> senseles: because passing around assets is less efficient, even with bitcoin.
 679 2011-07-18 04:31:06 <senseles> how so?
 680 2011-07-18 04:31:18 <senseles> debt is traded the same way currency is
 681 2011-07-18 04:31:31 <phantomcircuit> not really
 682 2011-07-18 04:31:54 <senseles> so i guess this last economic crisis didnt happen?
 683 2011-07-18 04:31:54 <gmaxwell> senseles: because every transaction must be visible to the whole world to prevent double spending, so there are scalablity limits. Also, it takes a long time to confirm transactions.
 684 2011-07-18 04:32:00 <gmaxwell> Debt is naturally locally scoped.
 685 2011-07-18 04:32:12 <gmaxwell> When I own you money, the rest of the world doesn't need to know anything about it.
 686 2011-07-18 04:32:29 <senseles> they do
 687 2011-07-18 04:32:31 <senseles> and they should
 688 2011-07-18 04:32:36 <phantomcircuit> they dont
 689 2011-07-18 04:32:39 <phantomcircuit> and they shouldn't
 690 2011-07-18 04:32:43 <senseles> hence why equifax and the other 3 exchanges are so popular
 691 2011-07-18 04:32:58 <phantomcircuit> ahah
 692 2011-07-18 04:32:58 <senseles> what would stop an individual from getting loans from multiple sources
 693 2011-07-18 04:33:02 <senseles> and not paying back any of them?
 694 2011-07-18 04:33:11 <senseles> you need a risk assessment
 695 2011-07-18 04:33:22 <gmaxwell> There is a difference between unbounded debt culture and rapidly settled private debt.
 696 2011-07-18 04:33:26 <phantomcircuit> the credit unions are popular but are statistically ineffective
 697 2011-07-18 04:33:26 <senseles> imagine before the advent of the internet
 698 2011-07-18 04:33:33 <senseles> you had the same problems with physical currency
 699 2011-07-18 04:33:40 <senseles> a user could go to NY cash a check
 700 2011-07-18 04:33:47 <senseles> go to LA the next day and cash a second check on the same funds
 701 2011-07-18 04:33:49 <cjdelisle> If Charlie goes "hey Bob, I been lookin for you, pay up! put it in wallet # X" Then instead of paying Bob says "Alice, where my money! Put it in Wallet # X" then Alice says "ok Bob, it's incoming from wallet # Y" and Bob says "Ok Charlie it's incoming from wallet # Y" then you can mitm a debt payment.
 702 2011-07-18 04:34:00 <gmaxwell> senseles: we had telecheck _long_ before the internet.
 703 2011-07-18 04:34:02 <senseles> the same thing applies to debt, if a user is in NY they get a loan, fly to LA, get another loan
 704 2011-07-18 04:34:25 <senseles> i dont see why its a bad thing for everything to be visible
 705 2011-07-18 04:34:29 <phantomcircuit> uh you can do that still
 706 2011-07-18 04:34:37 <senseles> no you cant
 707 2011-07-18 04:34:44 <senseles> because the first loan shows up on your credit report
 708 2011-07-18 04:34:45 <phantomcircuit> go write a ton of bad checks
 709 2011-07-18 04:34:52 <senseles> so the second bank isnt very likely to give you another loan
 710 2011-07-18 04:35:04 <senseles> most places either instantly cash checks
 711 2011-07-18 04:35:05 <cjdelisle> The problem with that, as with Ripple as a whole is that when things get too far leveraged, one person misses their payment and the whole financal system implodes.
 712 2011-07-18 04:35:09 <phantomcircuit> senseles, the banks are actually *terrible* at sharing information accurately
 713 2011-07-18 04:35:11 <senseles> or one release funds until the check clears
 714 2011-07-18 04:35:15 <gmaxwell> speaking of that, I haven't pulled my credit report in a long time.  Time to see if my identity has been stolen.
 715 2011-07-18 04:35:37 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: yes, that was one of the criticisms I made against it before. But thats resolved by rapid settlement.
 716 2011-07-18 04:35:46 <phantomcircuit> senseles, it is literally impossible to instantly clear a check currently, you're talking 2-5 days minimum and over 30 days for guaranteed clear
 717 2011-07-18 04:35:55 <gmaxwell> (and by making transactions which are backed with the ability to pay)
 718 2011-07-18 04:35:58 <phantomcircuit> it's why those silly 419 scams are so effective
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 720 2011-07-18 04:36:20 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: I see. Also it would be helpful to have a real metric of how badly leveraged people actually are.
 721 2011-07-18 04:36:24 <senseles> that just makes an arguement against the current banking system
 722 2011-07-18 04:36:30 <senseles> not against the idea of sharing information
 723 2011-07-18 04:36:51 <gmaxwell> You misunderstood what I was saying about broadcast.
 724 2011-07-18 04:37:02 <gmaxwell> I'm not making some moral argument against sharing information.
 725 2011-07-18 04:37:13 <gmaxwell> I'm making a technical point: Broadcast networks have limited scalablity.
 726 2011-07-18 04:37:22 <cjdelisle> ^OSPF
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 728 2011-07-18 04:38:09 <senseles> someone needs to make a bitcoin plastic card
 729 2011-07-18 04:38:09 <gmaxwell> And no one has any OSPF areas with more than 1000 nodes and about 10k LSAs, thats why thing like stub areas exist.
 730 2011-07-18 04:38:24 <senseles> chip on it containing your key then just swipe it :/
 731 2011-07-18 04:39:17 <senseles> i guess thats not very secure if you lose your wallet; because you literally lose your wallet. heh.
 732 2011-07-18 04:39:34 <gmaxwell> Tricker than you think, what you've described doesn't work by itself.
 733 2011-07-18 04:39:52 <gmaxwell> E.g. what happens when the swipe device simply saves your key?
 734 2011-07-18 04:39:59 <senseles> ya, not secure :/
 735 2011-07-18 04:40:20 <gmaxwell> or if its a smartcard that does the signing itself, why doesn't the swipe device try to simply spend all your money when you think you're buying 0.01 btc sodapop.
 736 2011-07-18 04:41:06 <cjdelisle> cell phone app
 737 2011-07-18 04:42:17 <cjdelisle> I still see a problem with ripple, namely when you trust a bank, you can't see how many other people trust that bank so while they can prove their assets, you can't see their liabilities.
 738 2011-07-18 04:42:40 <cjdelisle> And as we all know, banks love to get in over their heads ;)
 739 2011-07-18 04:44:56 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: solved by not trusting much and settling often.
 740 2011-07-18 04:45:20 <gmaxwell> If you want to buy a car, you'd do the btc transaction directly. But recall, we were talking about microtransactions.
 741 2011-07-18 04:45:34 <cjdelisle> Yea but the problem is you might do everything right but if most of the biggest banks don't, everyone gets burned.
 742 2011-07-18 04:45:54 <senseles> then your currency devalues from 55 pesos per 1$
 743 2011-07-18 04:45:56 <gmaxwell> Burned for their microtransactions.
 744 2011-07-18 04:45:58 <senseles> to 42 pesos per 1$
 745 2011-07-18 04:46:06 <cjdelisle> mm true
 746 2011-07-18 04:46:34 <senseles> its starting to get expensive to live in even a third world country when trying to survive on USD
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 749 2011-07-18 04:50:36 <senseles> kind of sick, i just paid more for electricit than i do my rent ..
 750 2011-07-18 04:50:44 <senseles> 15,000 pesos for rent .. 16,000 pesos of electricity
 751 2011-07-18 04:51:13 <ToTameALand> how much do you pay per kWh?
 752 2011-07-18 04:51:23 <senseles> i think its like 8 pesos
 753 2011-07-18 04:51:27 <senseles> at 42/1$
 754 2011-07-18 04:51:41 <senseles> about 0.19KWH
 755 2011-07-18 04:52:28 <senseles> they dont believe in central aircondition here; or insulation
 756 2011-07-18 04:52:35 <senseles> which is where all of it goes
 757 2011-07-18 04:52:51 <senseles> (powering little window unit aircoins)
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 759 2011-07-18 04:54:39 <ToTameALand> thats 0.13eur/KWh if Im not mistaken, not very cheap
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 761 2011-07-18 04:57:37 <senseles> not at all
 762 2011-07-18 04:57:47 <senseles> too bad foreigners arent allowed to own more than 40% of a business here
 763 2011-07-18 04:57:56 <senseles> it'd be a great place to put up solar or wind for a great ROI
 764 2011-07-18 04:58:18 <ToTameALand> why wait for foreigners, mexicans should do it
 765 2011-07-18 04:58:31 <senseles> im in the philippines :p
 766 2011-07-18 04:58:43 <ToTameALand> then why are we talking about pesos :)
 767 2011-07-18 04:58:49 <senseles> because thats the currency
 768 2011-07-18 04:58:51 <senseles> philippine peso
 769 2011-07-18 04:58:56 <ToTameALand> ah doh
 770 2011-07-18 04:59:45 <senseles> they also have this interesting geological feature called the san juanico straight
 771 2011-07-18 04:59:49 <ToTameALand> oh well, let me rephrase that then, philipinese should do it
 772 2011-07-18 04:59:57 <senseles> where the pacific ocean is forced to funnel in one direction 24/7
 773 2011-07-18 05:00:04 <senseles> great spot for some sort of underwater turbines
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 776 2011-07-18 05:02:56 <ToTameALand> when solar reaches 50% or more efficiency, that will do it
 777 2011-07-18 05:04:07 Bwild has joined
 778 2011-07-18 05:05:07 <ToTameALand> it wont take long, we are the most advanced species in the planet for a reason!
 779 2011-07-18 05:06:26 <senseles> that's not saying much
 780 2011-07-18 05:06:58 <eureka^> i really gotta turn highlights off in this channel
 781 2011-07-18 05:07:09 <eureka^> you guys talk about solar power a lot
 782 2011-07-18 05:07:16 <ToTameALand> hehe
 783 2011-07-18 05:08:00 <senseles> bitcoins right now with a large gpu cluster would be a good way to turn expenses into additional cash
 784 2011-07-18 05:08:12 <senseles> even at 0.06$KWH
 785 2011-07-18 05:08:25 <senseles> it'd be a great way to get rid of biogas without needing a grid synchronized generator
 786 2011-07-18 05:09:28 <ToTameALand> buy solar panels with the profit
 787 2011-07-18 05:10:22 <senseles> it's not stable enough for computers without being grid tied
 788 2011-07-18 05:10:28 <senseles> unless you want to spend a small fortune in batteries
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 790 2011-07-18 05:11:47 <ToTameALand> we're installing a 10kW grid tied system on our house in a few months, cant wait
 791 2011-07-18 05:12:44 <ToTameALand> lead acid batteries do suck a bit
 792 2011-07-18 05:13:10 <ToTameALand> but what can u do.. its the best we've got atm
 793 2011-07-18 05:13:21 <Zarutian> senseles: why not?  just have a big capacitor and a system to turn gpus on and off when there is power and when there is less power.
 794 2011-07-18 05:13:50 <senseles> the idea is to take that 37$ a month i spend on electricity and reduce it or eliminate it
 795 2011-07-18 05:13:57 <senseles> would want the systems to be running 24/7 still
 796 2011-07-18 05:14:05 <Zarutian> (the capacitor is to give the system a small window to spin gpus down)
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 798 2011-07-18 05:15:15 <ToTameALand> that would be a big capacitor, possibly a flux capacitor!
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 807 2011-07-18 05:28:58 <gmax-canary> Warning: Canary node has new valgrind reports, see https://people.xiph.org/~greg/canary.log.txt and https://people.xiph.org/~greg/canary.debug.log.gz
 808 2011-07-18 05:29:07 <gmaxwell> Cool. Okay, so that works.
 809 2011-07-18 05:29:22 <gmaxwell> If it goes nuts and spams the channel, don't hesitate to kick it (it won't rejoin on its own)
 810 2011-07-18 05:29:38 <gmaxwell> though it shouldn't be able to do that.
 811 2011-07-18 05:30:20 <gmaxwell> The output there is some bdb crap that happens at startup, I've had a node running for a while with no valgrind noise at all, so it shouldn't be chatty.
 812 2011-07-18 05:31:48 <doublec> nice
 813 2011-07-18 05:32:18 <gmaxwell> :) Later I'll add some support for logging other concerning events, like deep reorgs.
 814 2011-07-18 05:33:29 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: very nice!
 815 2011-07-18 05:34:07 <gmaxwell> I also need to add code to have it periodically move to new versions of bitcoin... right now I have to do it manually because I need to patch the makefile to build bitcoin on my system.
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 818 2011-07-18 05:35:55 <senseles> you could just use my static bins
 819 2011-07-18 05:35:57 <senseles> :/
 820 2011-07-18 05:36:06 <gmaxwell> ...
 821 2011-07-18 05:36:21 <senseles> ive been posting them on the forum
 822 2011-07-18 05:36:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: do you post node/version counts anywhere?
 823 2011-07-18 05:37:35 <gmaxwell> senseles: Thats not going to do me a lot of good. I need openssl compiled with -DPURIFY=1 or it's going to be an endless wall of valgrind errors, two, I need it with debugging symbols for the valgrind output to be reasonable.
 824 2011-07-18 05:38:01 <senseles> ah
 825 2011-07-18 05:38:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Nope. Well, right now I only have what my node observes, and it ends up being a frenzy of .21 nodes for some reason.
 826 2011-07-18 05:38:13 <gmaxwell> But I doubt its representative.
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 840 2011-07-18 06:08:46 <gmax-canary> Warning: Canary node has new valgrind reports, see https://people.xiph.org/~greg/canary.log.txt and https://people.xiph.org/~greg/canary.debug.log.gz
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 845 2011-07-18 06:17:40 <gmaxwell> K. I think thats the last of the valgrind notices that my other node has output so far.
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 857 2011-07-18 06:32:31 <accel_> ladeies and gentlemen
 858 2011-07-18 06:32:34 <accel_> what happens to bitcoin
 859 2011-07-18 06:32:41 <accel_> if ther internetz everz goez downz?
 860 2011-07-18 06:32:53 <senseles> hope that some people put up free to use cubesats
 861 2011-07-18 06:32:56 Bwild has quit (Quit: leaving)
 862 2011-07-18 06:33:07 <senseles> i want my own cube sat :(
 863 2011-07-18 06:33:12 <accel_> can the bitcoin block discovery every 10 minutes
 864 2011-07-18 06:33:18 <accel_> run over cube sats, whatever they mayb e?
 865 2011-07-18 06:33:29 <senseles> it's a 50,000$ satellite
 866 2011-07-18 06:33:37 <senseles> 100,000$ including launch
 867 2011-07-18 06:33:46 <accel_> so that's like what, 5K btc?
 868 2011-07-18 06:34:01 <senseles> i meant, for intercommunication between users
 869 2011-07-18 06:34:11 <accel_> waht's the maintenance fee for one of these suckers?
 870 2011-07-18 06:34:19 <senseles> after launching it? nothing
 871 2011-07-18 06:34:33 <accel_> wont' it eventually get out of orbit?
 872 2011-07-18 06:34:34 <senseles> it'll eventually fall back to earth or not depending on its orbit and speed
 873 2011-07-18 06:35:34 <accel_> can you launch cube sats without gov approval?
 874 2011-07-18 06:35:50 <accel_> at 10cm cube, is it small enough
 875 2011-07-18 06:35:55 <accel_> that govs won't send nukes after them?
 876 2011-07-18 06:36:01 <senseles> they reason it's so cheap is you're using extra payload space on another launch
 877 2011-07-18 06:36:10 <[Tycho]> 100 000 is way too much for 10 cm cube
 878 2011-07-18 06:37:31 <cjdelisle> 02:36 < accel_> if ther internetz everz goez downz? <-- what happens to the world economy?
 879 2011-07-18 06:37:38 <cjdelisle> everything is gone
 880 2011-07-18 06:37:49 <cjdelisle> it's like asking what happens if there's an all out nuclear war
 881 2011-07-18 06:38:07 <senseles> i guess we'll go back to bartering food and women
 882 2011-07-18 06:38:14 <accel_> no no, I mean what happens to bitcoin protocol
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 884 2011-07-18 06:39:25 <cjdelisle> not much but that is an end of world scenario so btc isn't really your biggest concern.
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 893 2011-07-18 06:58:16 <molecular> can anyone help me with this compile error: "util.cpp:869: error: conversion from ‘const wxChar*’ to non-scalar type ‘std::string’ requested"?
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 896 2011-07-18 07:12:15 <senseles> someone gave bitcoins to asicminer :/
 897 2011-07-18 07:12:16 <senseles> http://blockexplorer.com/address/16BYKtRZDT6vsbpYmfcM3EKStDAbrqFCkC
 898 2011-07-18 07:13:09 <mtrlt> those are ooold txs, at least nobody's given the 15BTC :P
 899 2011-07-18 07:13:09 <gmaxwell> Hey luke-jr — can you make your isstandard check reject transactions with multisig?  It looks like there is a bug in it, but if it ends up in the block chain then the bug won't be fixable.
 900 2011-07-18 07:13:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it isn't fixable period.
 901 2011-07-18 07:13:57 <luke-jr> and IsStandard is never called
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 903 2011-07-18 07:14:09 <senseles> apparently they lowered it to 5btc lol http://asicminer.net/?p=58
 904 2011-07-18 07:14:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Er, there are no transactions using it in the blockchain now.
 905 2011-07-18 07:14:47 <gmaxwell> If it's fixed and widely deployed in the fixed form before any such transaction is spent, then its a non-issue.
 906 2011-07-18 07:15:05 <gmaxwell> Most miners would reject such a txn as non-standard right now in any case.
 907 2011-07-18 07:15:28 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: anyone can add it at any time, including after a "bug" gets fixed
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 910 2011-07-18 07:18:01 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I'm not clear on what you're saying. There is only an issue if someone spends one of these broken txn. If it gets mined, fixed clients will reject any chain segment containing that spend.
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 912 2011-07-18 07:18:38 <gmaxwell> So it can be fixed fine so long as no txn spending from one of those txn shows up in the chain before most miners / other nodes have upgraded.
 913 2011-07-18 07:18:44 <xelister> Hollywood demands to brake the internet
 914 2011-07-18 07:18:46 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: fixing it will allow anyone to create a blockchain fork *even after it's "fixed"*
 915 2011-07-18 07:18:51 <xelister> Namecoin will be illegal tool soon
 916 2011-07-18 07:19:05 <xelister> arresting namecoin developers anyone?
 917 2011-07-18 07:19:11 <xelister> oh secdns will be illegall too
 918 2011-07-18 07:19:15 <xelister> http://politics.slashdot.org/story/11/07/18/0153204/Security-Consultants-Warn-About-PROTECT-IP-Act
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 922 2011-07-18 07:19:53 <luke-jr> night
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 925 2011-07-18 07:20:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes, though only old unupgraded clients. ::shrugs::
 926 2011-07-18 07:20:18 <gmaxwell> I guess you're right.
 927 2011-07-18 07:20:53 <gmaxwell> senseles: wtf, those specs are entirely unattractive.
 928 2011-07-18 07:21:31 <gmaxwell> They look more like FPGA performance specs than actual ASIC mining.
 929 2011-07-18 07:22:43 <gmaxwell> If they were making a scam you'd think they'd actually make their scam product attractive.
 930 2011-07-18 07:23:20 <xelister> looks scammish
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 932 2011-07-18 07:24:04 <[Tycho]> "<senseles> someone gave bitcoins to asicminer :/" - is this bad ?
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 935 2011-07-18 07:27:02 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: well, it's probably a scam.
 936 2011-07-18 07:28:30 <senseles> ya, it's definitely a scam i was just commenting that someone actually gave them btc
 937 2011-07-18 07:28:53 <gmaxwell> well, perhaps they gave themselves the coin.
 938 2011-07-18 07:29:25 <xelister> although, the technology as described there is possible or not? (only, that it is more like FPGA not ASIC)?
 939 2011-07-18 07:29:30 <senseles> While you're here since you seem to know a lot about FPGA did you see my post about the artix 7?
 940 2011-07-18 07:29:52 <gmaxwell> senseles: I commented in one of the other channels I think? I didn't see the post yet.
 941 2011-07-18 07:30:17 <gmaxwell> My comment was that the 22nm xilinx stuff won't be shipping in quantity until god-knows-when.
 942 2011-07-18 07:30:18 <senseles> im trying to find out the pricing for XC7A350T
 943 2011-07-18 07:30:21 <senseles> ah
 944 2011-07-18 07:30:39 <senseles> this is 28nm (i dont know if that makes a difference, older tech?)
 945 2011-07-18 07:30:49 <gmaxwell> Yes.. someone in IRC was saying it could even do 200MH, and I also pointed out that art managed that on S6-LX150.
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 947 2011-07-18 07:31:11 <gmaxwell> (well, ~190MH/s)
 948 2011-07-18 07:31:36 <xelister> sometimes it is scarry a bit
 949 2011-07-18 07:31:50 <xelister> milions of specialized hardware designed only to burn electricity and money ;)
 950 2011-07-18 07:32:03 <gmaxwell> xelister: it's rather slow for an asic implementation. Rather cheap for a fpga impementation that fast. Sure, its possible to build things like they are claiming.
 951 2011-07-18 07:32:10 <xelister> well to make new money, but still, is it not most un-green currency by design
 952 2011-07-18 07:32:28 <xelister> * it is the most un-green
 953 2011-07-18 07:32:43 <senseles> wait, someone has a XC7A350T and is only getting 200mhash/s?
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 955 2011-07-18 07:32:53 <senseles> i thought 200mhash/s was the spartan 6?
 956 2011-07-18 07:33:18 <jgarzik> ;;seen ArtForz
 957 2011-07-18 07:33:18 <gribble> ArtForz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 weeks, 5 days, 9 hours, 13 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <ArtForz> eternal beta. hah, satoshi is secretly a google employee!
 958 2011-07-18 07:33:44 <gmaxwell> senseles: someone did a timing analysis, I guess.
 959 2011-07-18 07:34:04 <gmaxwell> xelister: not so, cash for example is very very ungreen.
 960 2011-07-18 07:34:16 <gmaxwell> xelister: it's just that all the costs related to it are externalized and hidden.
 961 2011-07-18 07:34:38 <senseles> not only does it produce wastes from processing
 962 2011-07-18 07:34:41 <gmaxwell> xelister: consider all the costs of shipping it around, making it, destroying it securely, validating that its not counterfeted, chasing counterfeters, etc.
 963 2011-07-18 07:34:45 <senseles> but it also cuts down the trees that recycle the wastes :/
 964 2011-07-18 07:35:02 <xelister> jgarzik: he was killed for telling the truth
 965 2011-07-18 07:35:15 <gmaxwell> Toxic inks, cotton plants killing soil (in the case of the USD which is cotton cloth IIRC)...
 966 2011-07-18 07:35:24 <xelister> wait, jgarzik is mad I noticed his usafagginess
 967 2011-07-18 07:35:37 <xelister> gribble: echo jgarzik: he was killed for telling the truth
 968 2011-07-18 07:35:50 <xelister> worked in PM.... this bot is no fun =)
 969 2011-07-18 07:35:54 <xelister> ;;echo jgarzik: he was killed for telling the truth
 970 2011-07-18 07:35:54 <gribble> jgarzik: he was killed for telling the truth
 971 2011-07-18 07:36:21 <abishai> Im working on a hybrid biological-quantum processor, quark powered through an inversion engine and a flux capacitor acting as buffer, expecting to get ~600 Gigacrashes/s
 972 2011-07-18 07:36:40 <Matth1a3> nice
 973 2011-07-18 07:36:43 <xelister> gmaxwell: yea I can consider it... but the power-burn-race is infinie basically
 974 2011-07-18 07:37:01 <xelister> abishai: use it to attack pubkey tx directly =)
 975 2011-07-18 07:38:02 clr_ has joined
 976 2011-07-18 07:38:06 <abishai> but tha wouldnt be polite!
 977 2011-07-18 07:38:06 <senseles> abishai: and you only need 15 BTC to complete it? you'll send me a prototype if i give you my BTC now? :p
 978 2011-07-18 07:38:29 <senseles> thats not a bad idea though
 979 2011-07-18 07:38:36 <senseles> i wonder if you could grow rat brain cells to process hashes
 980 2011-07-18 07:38:41 <senseles> no electric at all
 981 2011-07-18 07:38:49 <senseles> just feed them some brain juices
 982 2011-07-18 07:39:02 <abishai> neural networks are _terrible_ at math
 983 2011-07-18 07:39:07 <senseles> oh :(
 984 2011-07-18 07:39:16 <abishai> just like our brains
 985 2011-07-18 07:39:35 <senseles> i wonder if there are savants in the rat population
 986 2011-07-18 07:40:03 <gmaxwell> senseles: well, not in normal lab rats.
 987 2011-07-18 07:40:27 <senseles> (like the people who have weird brain structure where numbers are colors, or that guy that can read PI out from memory to a billion decimal points)
 988 2011-07-18 07:40:30 <gmaxwell> Lab rats are genetically identical. I get spam from time to time offering to sell me ones with customized dna.
 989 2011-07-18 07:40:38 Angelue has joined
 990 2011-07-18 07:40:58 <gmaxwell> (e.g. ones where certian cell types fluoresce)
 991 2011-07-18 07:41:45 <senseles> could a neural network be structured in the same way as an ASIC?
 992 2011-07-18 07:41:48 <senseles> couldnt*
 993 2011-07-18 07:42:01 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 994 2011-07-18 07:42:08 <xelister> gmaxwell: btw did you noticed how x2 I have now valid point about we-need-freenet-or-alike ?
 995 2011-07-18 07:42:27 <gmaxwell> xelister: ?
 996 2011-07-18 07:42:34 <gmaxwell> Who is we?
 997 2011-07-18 07:42:44 <xelister> gmaxwell: namecoin is [soon will be] illegal. developers can be arrested
 998 2011-07-18 07:42:53 <gmaxwell> The world? I agree, and have long agreed, that the world needs freenet.
 999 2011-07-18 07:42:55 <xelister> ...so developers should hide
1000 2011-07-18 07:42:58 Angelue has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1001 2011-07-18 07:43:04 <gmaxwell> Your claim that namecoin will be illegal is nonsense.
1002 2011-07-18 07:43:13 <xelister> gmaxwell: 2) we need to avoid this stupid and stupider by day censorships shit
1003 2011-07-18 07:43:16 <gmaxwell> Go look at the proposed law. It doesn't make namecoin illegal.
1004 2011-07-18 07:43:41 <xelister> gmaxwell: are you sure namecoin based custom DNSes will be legal while dnssec will be illigal?
1005 2011-07-18 07:43:42 <gmaxwell> Spreading hysteria just makes people with legit concerns look like nutbags.
1006 2011-07-18 07:44:05 <xelister> yeah I ment more the actuall indended use of namecoins with custom DNS servers, not just the "mining and trading them"
1007 2011-07-18 07:44:35 <gmaxwell> It doesn't make dnssec illegial either. Though the law may be interperted in a way that would make ISPs _break_ dnssec.
1008 2011-07-18 07:44:58 <senseles> what law is this?
1009 2011-07-18 07:45:16 <lfm> to the ones spreding the hysteria the legit concerns are indistinguishable from the hysteria
1010 2011-07-18 07:45:33 <xelister> gmaxwell: ok. but then combined with laws that "tools to allow avoiding Secure-IP/etc are illegal"
1011 2011-07-18 07:45:49 <xelister> senseles: http://politics.slashdot.org/story/11/07/18/0153204/Security-Consultants-Warn-About-PROTECT-IP-Act
1012 2011-07-18 07:45:53 <gmaxwell> There isn't any law like that.
1013 2011-07-18 07:45:58 <gmaxwell> See the actual text: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s968/text
1014 2011-07-18 07:46:13 <gmaxwell> Not that it isn't a crap law which should be opposed, of course.
1015 2011-07-18 07:46:25 <xelister> gmaxwell: developer in France was already in fact arrested for "writting tool that can be used to avoi [some copyright shit] - the tool was dvd backup thingy or alike"
1016 2011-07-18 07:46:25 clr_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1017 2011-07-18 07:47:04 <gmaxwell> But really, "omg namecoin is illegial" is garbage and it just makes sane people tune out. Which sucks because we need their support to oppose laws like this.
1018 2011-07-18 07:47:49 <xelister> gmaxwell: I am sorry but it seems this crazy "namecon will be illegal, devels will be arrested!!11"  is... TRUTH, in our fucked up world.  Again, FR developer was already arrested for writting dvd-backup. crazy world eh?
1019 2011-07-18 07:48:14 <senseles> wow that sucks
1020 2011-07-18 07:48:28 <xelister> I should find that article about fr developer again. Afair it was only in Fr at first.
1021 2011-07-18 07:48:52 <dsockwell> xelister: you mean decss back in 1999?
1022 2011-07-18 07:48:54 <xelister> btw I found about this on #freenet afair.  Also this is reason why freenet developer(s) in franch have to stop developing it
1023 2011-07-18 07:49:01 <senseles> next thing you know they'll force all of the ISPs to route all port 53 requests to the ISPs name server
1024 2011-07-18 07:49:02 <gmaxwell> well, france is screwey. They recently fined an org $25,000 for removing spam from wikipedia.
1025 2011-07-18 07:49:05 <xelister> dsockwell: no. This is a fresh news
1026 2011-07-18 07:49:13 <xelister> gmaxwell: oh yea that too
1027 2011-07-18 07:49:18 <senseles> thats what they do in china, it doesnt matter waht name server you try to use the ISP will spit back invalid IP numbers
1028 2011-07-18 07:49:29 <senseles> but you can still connect to the IP of one of the facebookw ebservers and see the content
1029 2011-07-18 07:49:52 <senseles> really hope that doesnt pass
1030 2011-07-18 07:50:01 <senseles> or, i hope it does
1031 2011-07-18 07:50:06 <senseles> since i run a vpn service
1032 2011-07-18 07:50:06 <senseles> heh
1033 2011-07-18 07:50:35 <lfm> the old millenium copyright law that made it illegal to try to bypass copy protection wouldnt really apply to bypassing dns censorship. It seems thats what they are worried about
1034 2011-07-18 07:50:56 <xelister> senseles: perhaps it will increase people's interest in Freenet too :)  Which is ultimate solution to most such problems imo
1035 2011-07-18 07:51:32 <senseles> dmca was/is a horrible law
1036 2011-07-18 07:51:35 <gmaxwell> lfm: it wouldn't apply to that at all... right.
1037 2011-07-18 07:51:49 <xelister> not sure if FR laws would not
1038 2011-07-18 07:51:52 <xelister> although
1039 2011-07-18 07:51:55 <xelister> rise hand
1040 2011-07-18 07:51:59 <senseles> FR is 3 strikes and your out
1041 2011-07-18 07:52:08 <xelister> who think they will not pass a law to also outlaw avoiding censorship?
1042 2011-07-18 07:52:11 <xelister> :}
1043 2011-07-18 07:52:12 <gmaxwell> There are some parts of the DMCA which are good and helpful. The fact that service providers get ironclad immunity has been very helpful for free speech on the internet.
1044 2011-07-18 07:52:13 <senseles> which sucks because all the french people who want to torrent buy my vpn and then use a USA server like dip shits
1045 2011-07-18 07:52:34 <gmaxwell> Without it ISPs would be even _more_ trigger happy about taking down content, as they'd have potentially millions in liablity.
1046 2011-07-18 07:52:36 <xelister> also, avoiding censorship of anit-copyright sites is aiding anti-copyright, MAFIAA can claim
1047 2011-07-18 07:52:43 <gmaxwell> Sites like youtube could never have existed in the first place without it.
1048 2011-07-18 07:53:03 <senseles> at softlayer, if im offending and I dont remove the content or dispute the dmca they will down my server in 48 hours
1049 2011-07-18 07:53:04 <xelister> senseles: FR have really high Freenet use too
1050 2011-07-18 07:53:26 <lfm> senseles: what part sucks about you getting lots of customers from france?
1051 2011-07-18 07:53:51 <senseles> #1 they're all using torrent flooding the server with 10s of thousands of 1pps connections
1052 2011-07-18 07:54:04 <xelister> IT already started banning/outlawing VPNs/proxies.
1053 2011-07-18 07:54:07 <senseles> #2 they use USA servers which means I've got to deal with DMCA complains and terminate them
1054 2011-07-18 07:54:07 <xelister> itally
1055 2011-07-18 07:54:15 <gmaxwell> senseles: right, which is how the law sets things up. Without the DMCA, as soon as someone told softlayer you were infringing they'd instantly pull you down, because they'd be liable for the infringement. DMCA fixes that.
1056 2011-07-18 07:55:04 <senseles> how is it possible to make a VPN illegal?
1057 2011-07-18 07:55:07 <senseles> thats absurd
1058 2011-07-18 07:55:07 <gmaxwell> senseles: Tell softlayer that you're a service provider, get your contact information listed with the copyright office, handle the DMCA compaints yourself: pass them on to the users to have them file disputes.
1059 2011-07-18 07:55:30 graingert_ is now known as graingert
1060 2011-07-18 07:55:35 <senseles> i was considering doing that i was reading online
1061 2011-07-18 07:55:38 <gmaxwell> oh I was crossing messages between senseles and xelister, obviously that means that its past bedtime. Night.
1062 2011-07-18 07:55:44 <senseles> I just dont see that my volume is worthwhile to do all of that
1063 2011-07-18 07:55:53 <senseles> cya
1064 2011-07-18 07:55:53 <xelister> gmaxwell: night =)
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1066 2011-07-18 07:58:22 <senseles> i guess italy is going to have a hard time adopting ipv6
1067 2011-07-18 07:58:38 <senseles> considering IPSec is fundamental in its design
1068 2011-07-18 07:59:08 <gmaxwell> senseles: IPSec isn't actually fundimental in IPv6 in any meaningful way.
1069 2011-07-18 07:59:42 <senseles> for point to point security?
1070 2011-07-18 08:00:59 <gmaxwell> It's not actually being used by, well, anyone. No one has manged to get interoperable, interworking opportunistic IPsec working... severely limits its usage.
1071 2011-07-18 08:01:21 huk has quit ()
1072 2011-07-18 08:01:43 <gmaxwell> IPSec, unfortunately, has the wrong design for securing the internet.
1073 2011-07-18 08:02:37 <gmaxwell> You can't do authentication at the network layer, because the network layer knows nothing of the apropriate kind of authentication. And IPsec's design doesn't let the authentication happen anywhere else.
1074 2011-07-18 08:03:12 <gmaxwell> http://tcpcrypt.org/ < has the right design, — but who knows if it will be successful.
1075 2011-07-18 08:03:29 ThomasV has joined
1076 2011-07-18 08:03:41 <senseles> Well thats dumb
1077 2011-07-18 08:03:56 <senseles> isnt the whole point of ipv6 ipsec for network layer encryption
1078 2011-07-18 08:04:02 <moa7>  gmaxwell: thnx 4 the insight re: ipsec.
1079 2011-07-18 08:04:30 <senseles> Why would it be in the design if it's not possible?
1080 2011-07-18 08:05:51 <gmaxwell> Encryption at the network layer works great.
1081 2011-07-18 08:06:05 hachque has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1082 2011-07-18 08:06:11 <gmaxwell> But encryption without authentication doesn't provide security (trivally vulnerable to mitm)
1083 2011-07-18 08:06:26 <senseles> oh, i see what you're saying
1084 2011-07-18 08:06:38 <senseles> so without the implementation of dedicated keys it's pointless
1085 2011-07-18 08:06:47 <gmaxwell> This is why IPSEC doesn't actually secure the internet generally, because in practice you end up having to preconfigure the keying material.
1086 2011-07-18 08:06:53 <gmaxwell> Right.
1087 2011-07-18 08:07:11 <xelister> gmaxwell: what, ipsec does not have authentication mechanisms?
1088 2011-07-18 08:08:02 d1g1t4l has joined
1089 2011-07-18 08:08:38 <senseles> it does
1090 2011-07-18 08:08:40 <senseles> certificates and PSK
1091 2011-07-18 08:08:47 <gmaxwell> xelister: sure it does, but they aren't generally useful because they're at the network layer, and the network layer is blind to what you need to know for authentication.
1092 2011-07-18 08:09:11 <xelister> hm
1093 2011-07-18 08:09:32 <senseles> i guess thats kind of what the use of quantum entangled keys is for
1094 2011-07-18 08:09:40 <senseles> or would be a good use of that technology
1095 2011-07-18 08:09:54 Adrieuxo has joined
1096 2011-07-18 08:10:13 <gmaxwell> Well, what TCPcrypt does is pretty smart:  It always encrypts everything, but then just provides the hooks so that higher layers can authenticate the encrypted session.
1097 2011-07-18 08:10:29 <senseles> either way i cant see how they could force everyone in italy to not use ipsec considering it is a vpn in of itself
1098 2011-07-18 08:10:42 <senseles> government, businesses, schools, etc
1099 2011-07-18 08:10:46 Adrieuxo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1100 2011-07-18 08:10:57 <senseles> almost every organization of any real size has some sort of vpn
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1120 2011-07-18 08:50:45 <prof7bit> is there a link to any credible news article or other credible source for this Italy thing? Because I don't believe it.
1121 2011-07-18 08:51:10 <cuddlefish> what italy thing
1122 2011-07-18 08:51:33 <prof7bit> that they are banning VPNs
1123 2011-07-18 08:51:49 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1124 2011-07-18 08:52:40 AStove has joined
1125 2011-07-18 08:52:44 <cuddlefish> wut
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1127 2011-07-18 08:54:10 <doublec> prof7bit: I think the speculation is "....if they continue down this path they might block vpn's"
1128 2011-07-18 08:54:19 <doublec> eg: http://torrentfreak.com/italy-censors-proxy-that-bypasses-btjunkie-and-pirate-bay-block-110716/
1129 2011-07-18 08:54:29 <doublec> "Following this logic they will also have to censor thousands of other proxy sites and ban all VPN services"
1130 2011-07-18 08:54:43 <doublec> so I don't think they are banning VPN's
1131 2011-07-18 08:55:15 <prof7bit> so the problem is they are banning websites
1132 2011-07-18 08:55:36 <prof7bit> the root of the problem
1133 2011-07-18 08:55:58 <prof7bit> s/banning/censoring
1134 2011-07-18 08:58:40 shLONG has joined
1135 2011-07-18 08:59:45 <gmaxwell> doublec: common computer dweep misunderstanding of law/politics... this idea that the law/politics must meet some level of consistency.
1136 2011-07-18 08:59:47 JFK911_ has joined
1137 2011-07-18 09:00:04 <gmaxwell> "X is almost the same as Y, if they block one instance of X they must ban all of Y!!!!"
1138 2011-07-18 09:00:07 JFK911 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1139 2011-07-18 09:00:12 <doublec> gmaxwell: yep :)
1140 2011-07-18 09:02:30 shLONG has quit (Client Quit)
1141 2011-07-18 09:02:32 <cuddlefish> amiller: I am disappoint.
1142 2011-07-18 09:02:42 <cuddlefish> amiller: in your python-ecdsa fork
1143 2011-07-18 09:02:47 <cuddlefish> you left this gem in
1144 2011-07-18 09:02:47 <cuddlefish> def orderlen(order): return (1+len("%x"%order))//2 # bytes
1145 2011-07-18 09:03:26 <amiller> lol
1146 2011-07-18 09:03:29 <cuddlefish> so, to see how many bytes a number takes up
1147 2011-07-18 09:03:38 <cuddlefish> we: turn it into hex with string formatting
1148 2011-07-18 09:03:42 <amiller> first convert to hex then count the digits
1149 2011-07-18 09:03:44 <cuddlefish> yeah
1150 2011-07-18 09:03:53 <cuddlefish> math.ceil(math.log(order, 255))
1151 2011-07-18 09:03:53 <amiller> well it's a performance enhancement
1152 2011-07-18 09:03:55 <amiller> over my usual method
1153 2011-07-18 09:03:55 <upb> much easier than dealing with those damn logs
1154 2011-07-18 09:04:02 <amiller> which is to make a http get to google's calculator
1155 2011-07-18 09:04:08 <doublec> hehe
1156 2011-07-18 09:04:09 <upb> LOL
1157 2011-07-18 09:04:25 <cuddlefish> amiller: also, which curve does Bitcoin use
1158 2011-07-18 09:04:30 <cuddlefish> NIST256p?
1159 2011-07-18 09:05:31 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1160 2011-07-18 09:06:16 <amiller> NID_secp256k1
1161 2011-07-18 09:06:24 <amiller> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/key.h#L91
1162 2011-07-18 09:06:38 <cuddlefish> amiller: okay, do you have that in python-ecdsa format?
1163 2011-07-18 09:07:08 <amiller> nope, just the nist curves
1164 2011-07-18 09:07:17 <amiller> a glaring omission huh
1165 2011-07-18 09:07:25 <cuddlefish> yeah, I'll try to implement it
1166 2011-07-18 09:07:32 <cuddlefish> and probably leak private keys somehow <<
1167 2011-07-18 09:07:41 <amiller> lol
1168 2011-07-18 09:07:58 <amiller> do you know the mega64 video that parodies river city ransom
1169 2011-07-18 09:08:01 <cjdelisle> just don't use the
1170 2011-07-18 09:08:08 <cjdelisle> same random number every time
1171 2011-07-18 09:08:14 <amiller> where the guy whenever he comes in contact with someone goes 'uhh' and then drops a whole bunch of coins
1172 2011-07-18 09:08:17 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
1173 2011-07-18 09:08:27 <amiller> http://www.mega64.com/rcr.htm
1174 2011-07-18 09:08:29 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-106-201-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
1175 2011-07-18 09:08:36 <amiller> i think about that whenever i think about losing bitcoins
1176 2011-07-18 09:08:38 <amiller> spilling keys
1177 2011-07-18 09:08:42 <amiller> anyway
1178 2011-07-18 09:08:52 <amiller> i haven't done anything with the python-ecdsa
1179 2011-07-18 09:09:11 <amiller> brian warner hangs out in #tahoe-lafs
1180 2011-07-18 09:09:23 <amiller> would probably be interested if you added to it
1181 2011-07-18 09:09:30 zapnap_ has joined
1182 2011-07-18 09:09:38 <cuddlefish> satoshi, y u no use industry standards
1183 2011-07-18 09:11:36 Nexus7 has quit ()
1184 2011-07-18 09:12:10 <MagicalTux> anyone here knows what the "Error: Transaction creation failed" error means (in sendtoaddress)
1185 2011-07-18 09:13:07 zapnap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1186 2011-07-18 09:13:10 <MagicalTux> (followed by two spaces)
1187 2011-07-18 09:13:33 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: after you mentioned it in #mtgox I glanced at the code, and it appears to be the error produced if a send fails for any reasons which isn't insufficient balance. Perhaps someone here can suggest whatever condition that might be.
1188 2011-07-18 09:13:48 <gmaxwell> oh, followed by two spaces?
1189 2011-07-18 09:13:55 <MagicalTux> when CreateTransaction() returns false
1190 2011-07-18 09:14:09 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: strError = _("Error: Transaction creation failed  ");
1191 2011-07-18 09:14:09 <doublec> MagicalTux: I get that with namecoin when I try to send large amounts
1192 2011-07-18 09:14:17 <doublec> MagicalTux: and it needs to pull from tons of addresses
1193 2011-07-18 09:14:29 <MagicalTux> doublec: ok I see
1194 2011-07-18 09:14:37 <doublec> MagicalTux: so I have to do lots of smaller transfers
1195 2011-07-18 09:14:51 <MagicalTux> maybe we should do that bitcoin can merge really small transactions
1196 2011-07-18 09:15:12 <cuddlefish> mega-transaction
1197 2011-07-18 09:15:27 <cuddlefish> everyone gets a satoshi
1198 2011-07-18 09:15:33 <gmaxwell> Yea, thats also a stupid catchall error.
1199 2011-07-18 09:16:22 <MagicalTux> sending one satoshi to every known bitcoin address would cost a total of 0.015 bitcoin
1200 2011-07-18 09:16:32 <MagicalTux> (~1.5 million known bitcoin address on this world)
1201 2011-07-18 09:16:53 <gmaxwell> Are you trying to send zero or a negative value (looking at conditions where CreateTransaction returns false)
1202 2011-07-18 09:17:01 <doublec> every now and then I 'defragment' the namecoin pool and exchange wallets to avoid the error by sending to one address and then sending back
1203 2011-07-18 09:17:35 <gmaxwell> also,
1204 2011-07-18 09:17:35 <gmaxwell>                 if (nBytes >= MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5)
1205 2011-07-18 09:17:36 <gmaxwell>                     return false;
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1207 2011-07-18 09:18:38 <gmaxwell> or SelectCoins fails, or SignSignature fails. I dunno why either of those would fail.
1208 2011-07-18 09:18:38 JFK911_ is now known as JFK911
1209 2011-07-18 09:20:04 <MagicalTux> doublec: it fails with 50 BTC
1210 2011-07-18 09:20:35 <doublec> MagicalTux: that does seem to be a bit small to trigger it for the reasons I was getting
1211 2011-07-18 09:20:40 ar4s has joined
1212 2011-07-18 09:20:49 <MagicalTux> now fails with 20 BTC
1213 2011-07-18 09:21:03 <MagicalTux> 10 BTC...
1214 2011-07-18 09:21:14 ThomasV has joined
1215 2011-07-18 09:21:24 <MagicalTux> oh
1216 2011-07-18 09:21:28 <MagicalTux> had to send as 8 BTC
1217 2011-07-18 09:21:59 <doublec> have a look a the transaction when it appears on block explorer and see if it has a large number of inputs
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1220 2011-07-18 09:22:02 <MagicalTux> http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com/ <- am I the only one who gets scientology ads on the bitcoin monitor ?
1221 2011-07-18 09:22:12 <MagicalTux> (and bitcoin monitor which doesn't work)
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1223 2011-07-18 09:22:52 <MagicalTux> b96a37e480b803117304267edc756afdd8db04c1af64263dd885893021a6dd50 <- the 8 BTC tx
1224 2011-07-18 09:23:29 <MagicalTux> with a 0.0275 btc fee
1225 2011-07-18 09:23:43 <doublec> there's a few transactions with lots of inputs here: http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1226 2011-07-18 09:23:52 <cuddlefish> amiller: Oh yay
1227 2011-07-18 09:23:53 <cuddlefish> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23241.0
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1229 2011-07-18 09:24:02 retrospect_ is now known as abishai
1230 2011-07-18 09:24:22 <MagicalTux> doublec: probably mine
1231 2011-07-18 09:26:38 <gmaxwell> hmph. not on the bitcoincharts list yet.
1232 2011-07-18 09:27:13 <gmaxwell> My node has heard it
1233 2011-07-18 09:27:13 <gmaxwell>   got inventory from 132.177.40.98:62890 : tx b96a37e480b803117304  new
1234 2011-07-18 09:27:42 <doublec> mines got it too
1235 2011-07-18 09:28:01 <gmaxwell> and I'm relaying it.
1236 2011-07-18 09:28:25 <gmaxwell> I wonder if bitcoincharts is still not displaying txn that don't meet the old fee rules?
1237 2011-07-18 09:28:25 <MagicalTux> it'll be there eventually
1238 2011-07-18 09:28:49 <MagicalTux> that transaction was generated with 0.3.24
1239 2011-07-18 09:29:31 <gmaxwell> tcatm: What bitcoind is backing the bitcoincharts/bitcoin output?
1240 2011-07-18 09:29:36 <gmaxwell> (version, I mean)
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1242 2011-07-18 09:31:07 <tcatm> gmaxwell: 0.3.21-beta
1243 2011-07-18 09:31:18 <gmaxwell> ah. Then I guess so.
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1245 2011-07-18 09:31:30 <MagicalTux> good thing bitcoin monitor is down, people would run crazy right now
1246 2011-07-18 09:31:37 <doublec> haha
1247 2011-07-18 09:31:40 <gmaxwell> tcatm: because of that you're probably not showing txn which meet the newer fee rules but not the old ones.
1248 2011-07-18 09:33:08 <gmaxwell> tcatm: thats bad because "look at bitcoincharts" is the #1 answer to people who are worried about where their TXN has gone. :)
1249 2011-07-18 09:33:25 <MagicalTux> who's going to make the next huge block with huge amount of fees?
1250 2011-07-18 09:34:48 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: hehe. 100 BTC over and over again to your pot of gold account...
1251 2011-07-18 09:35:00 <tcatm> gmaxwell: already downloading new binary. I didn't notice it was that old
1252 2011-07-18 09:35:46 <MagicalTux> I wonder what's the size of that 8 btc trx
1253 2011-07-18 09:35:50 <MagicalTux> and block is still not coming
1254 2011-07-18 09:35:52 <gmaxwell> tcatm: sorry, I would have nagged before but I thought you'd upgraded already. :)
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1256 2011-07-18 09:36:45 <doublec> blocks always take ages when your watching
1257 2011-07-18 09:36:57 <MagicalTux> like boiling water
1258 2011-07-18 09:37:12 <gmaxwell> hm. I wish there was an RPC to output txn from the memory poool.
1259 2011-07-18 09:37:13 <moa7> esp. on namecoin
1260 2011-07-18 09:37:24 <doublec> gavinandresen: yes that'd be great
1261 2011-07-18 09:37:34 <doublec> erm, gmaxwell, I mean
1262 2011-07-18 09:38:00 Beccara has joined
1263 2011-07-18 09:38:03 <doublec> moa7: blocks on namecoin take ages anyway :)
1264 2011-07-18 09:38:20 <moa7> yeah ... bad joke.
1265 2011-07-18 09:38:59 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure why gettransaction is limited to your wallet in any case.
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1283 2011-07-18 09:43:36 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r2005bbc / lib/blockchainmanager.js : Fixed block chain download timeout. - http://bit.ly/oNFw7A https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/2005bbc44147699ded5003dc0fc7266406470b14
1284 2011-07-18 09:43:37 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r4564b0c / (lib/rpc/get.js lib/transactionstore.js): Add RPC call listmemtransactions. - http://bit.ly/pi6MQf https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/4564b0c47e080ca78e00666b37a542f6017a773d
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1288 2011-07-18 09:43:56 <justmoon> gmaxwell, implemented - thanks for the suggestion
1289 2011-07-18 09:44:13 <gmaxwell> justmoon: pull request?
1290 2011-07-18 09:44:19 <gmaxwell> :)
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1293 2011-07-18 09:44:34 <justmoon> gmaxwell, would be a bit hard to merge, bitcoinjs is written in javascript
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1296 2011-07-18 09:44:55 <gmaxwell> ah! :)
1297 2011-07-18 09:44:58 <justmoon> ;)
1298 2011-07-18 09:45:15 <doublec> justmoon: don't you listen to bruce eckel? JavaScript is an abomination!
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1301 2011-07-18 09:45:23 <justmoon> doublec, who is bruce eckel?
1302 2011-07-18 09:45:28 <gmaxwell> Somehow I'm not feeling the magic right now.
1303 2011-07-18 09:45:41 <doublec> justmoon: I like that answer. relatively well known programming language book author.
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1306 2011-07-18 09:46:03 <justmoon> doublec, well I'm the author of numerous pieces of software :)
1307 2011-07-18 09:46:12 <doublec> :)
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1315 2011-07-18 09:46:58 <MagicalTux> tcatm: http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ <- I'd suggest adding the "total fee to be collected"
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1330 2011-07-18 09:50:45 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: (re google maps) : let me know if there's anything I can do to accelerate the process
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1336 2011-07-18 09:51:36 <ersi> ;;bc,stats
1337 2011-07-18 09:51:37 nus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1338 2011-07-18 09:51:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136860 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 227 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 44 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1684659.71945189
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1347 2011-07-18 09:53:29 <prof7bit> bruce eckel? never heard that name.
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1349 2011-07-18 09:54:12 <ersi> prof7bit: He's written a lot of books related to C++
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1352 2011-07-18 09:54:22 <ersi> even knew that without searching
1353 2011-07-18 09:54:36 <prof7bit> C++ then what excatly makes him an "expert" in JavaScript?
1354 2011-07-18 09:54:38 <ersi> oh yeah, I've read Thinking In Java by him
1355 2011-07-18 09:54:54 <diki> guys, can you change the fucking SMF to another board?
1356 2011-07-18 09:55:07 <diki> i hate it when i post, it redirects me directly to the forum instead of the thread
1357 2011-07-18 09:55:26 <ersi> prof7bit: I think he has said/written nasty things about JavaScript
1358 2011-07-18 09:55:40 <doublec> prof7bit: he isn't a JS expert. He admits he's new.
1359 2011-07-18 09:55:55 <prof7bit> this proves he has no clue about javascript.
1360 2011-07-18 09:55:57 <doublec> prof7bit: which is why a 'JS is an abomination' article from him should be ignored
1361 2011-07-18 09:56:00 <doublec> prof7bit: right
1362 2011-07-18 09:56:28 <doublec> "Javascript has no linker and this means there must be global variables."
1363 2011-07-18 09:56:46 <prof7bit> you cannot admit to know nothing about a language and in the same sentence call that language "the abomination"
1364 2011-07-18 09:57:06 <doublec> reading that article has made me doubt the quality of his other books
1365 2011-07-18 09:57:19 <justmoon> for reference, this is the article I believe: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=329840
1366 2011-07-18 09:57:30 <doublec> justmoon: yes
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1368 2011-07-18 09:57:54 <doublec> diki: the developers want to get rid of that forum altogether
1369 2011-07-18 09:58:09 <doublec> diki: and replace it with a more focused one
1370 2011-07-18 09:58:11 <justmoon> it sounds like he's criticizing crockford's book more than the actual language itself
1371 2011-07-18 09:58:29 <ersi> "JaveScript is an Abomination"
1372 2011-07-18 09:58:37 <doublec> haha, I didn't notice that
1373 2011-07-18 09:58:41 <prof7bit> crockford is the expert.
1374 2011-07-18 09:58:41 <justmoon> ersi, yeah, but read the actual text below that
1375 2011-07-18 09:58:49 <ersi> lol @ spelling a error in title/paragraph title
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1378 2011-07-18 09:58:52 <justmoon> "The lecture Learning to Love Javascript by Alex Russell is a little more hopeful and gives you additional perspective on the language."
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1389 2011-07-18 10:02:00 <prof7bit> "JaveScript is an Abomination" <-- he cannot even spell its name. And between "A" and "E" are 3 centimeters distance.
1390 2011-07-18 10:02:21 <justmoon> prof7bit, lol
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1393 2011-07-18 10:02:28 <justmoon> that *is* quite funny
1394 2011-07-18 10:02:41 <justmoon> quick, everybody, quote him, before he fixes it :)
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1399 2011-07-18 10:03:29 <lfm> but is he right or not?
1400 2011-07-18 10:03:32 <justmoon> all the points he makes are valid in my opinion
1401 2011-07-18 10:03:49 <justmoon> he doesn't seem to be aware of some of the solutions to these problems though
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1404 2011-07-18 10:04:17 <justmoon> for example he complains about the global namespace which doesn't apply to node.js at all for example
1405 2011-07-18 10:04:20 <UukGoblin> I'd heard javascript is pretty OK as a language... just that the DOM is a mess
1406 2011-07-18 10:04:42 <doublec> justmoon: right, he's confusing the language and the environment
1407 2011-07-18 10:05:04 <xelister> UukGoblin: it is
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1412 2011-07-18 10:05:22 <lfm> so the jav(e)script environment is an abomination?
1413 2011-07-18 10:05:38 <doublec> eg: "And each piece of code makes its own global variables and functions which can collide -- at the time you load the page, "
1414 2011-07-18 10:05:46 <doublec> this is a browser thing, not a JS thing
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1417 2011-07-18 10:06:03 <justmoon> "The other layer of abstraction we need is a pluggable DOM." - also browser-only - node.js has no dom
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1432 2011-07-18 10:11:57 <prof7bit> i don't understand why he thinks that the absence or presence of a linker has anything to do with global variables.
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1437 2011-07-18 10:13:18 <justmoon> prof7bit, he means that you can't load two libraries that are both called "CoolLib", with a linker like C or a module system like Node.js you can
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1442 2011-07-18 10:14:02 <justmoon> in practice this has come up in that a lot of javascript libraries define $, so you run into problems when you include multiple ones
1443 2011-07-18 10:14:09 <prof7bit> then he is referring to dynamic linking?
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1447 2011-07-18 10:14:47 <justmoon> nah, just that you need to be able to "import", "include" or "require" stuff - all different names for the same thing
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1450 2011-07-18 10:14:56 <diki> if you hate dlls, you know the way out
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1452 2011-07-18 10:15:15 <lfm> I think you can have both xx/CoolLib.a and yy/CoolLib.a linked in with C
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1455 2011-07-18 10:15:27 <diki> lfm
1456 2011-07-18 10:15:30 <prof7bit> but this is not a feature of the linker or caused by its absence. this is called namespace and is a feature of the language.
1457 2011-07-18 10:15:37 <diki> do you have any upgrades for the diff calculator?
1458 2011-07-18 10:15:43 <prof7bit> in C you have a linker and you still have global variables.
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1461 2011-07-18 10:15:56 <lfm> diki: maybe a few small ones, want a new copy?
1462 2011-07-18 10:16:01 <justmoon> prof7bit, well, whichever it is, he is criticizing the absence of a linker in the browser
1463 2011-07-18 10:16:03 <prof7bit> in Pascal you have a linker too but no global variables
1464 2011-07-18 10:16:15 <diki> lfm, i'd like to report a small bug
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1467 2011-07-18 10:16:31 <lfm> diki, ok
1468 2011-07-18 10:16:37 <diki> if i were to enter a diff like 1.994008 and i get the target
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1471 2011-07-18 10:16:54 <diki> i copy the same target and run it through the diff calculator again and it spews a different diff
1472 2011-07-18 10:16:54 <prof7bit> (except you explicitly put them into the interface section, and even then they cannot collide)
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1475 2011-07-18 10:18:04 <lfm> diki: ok seems I may have fixed or at least improved that in my current version. hold on a sec
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1484 2011-07-18 10:20:13 <prof7bit> justmoon: to me it seems he is criticising the existence of global variables and does not know what exactly to blame for it.
1485 2011-07-18 10:21:08 <prof7bit> while it is originally a language feature thing
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1487 2011-07-18 10:21:56 <justmoon> prof7bit, yeah, as I said, in Node.js you have a pretty nice module system, so it's obviously an aspect of the environment
1488 2011-07-18 10:22:06 <prof7bit> python does not have a global namespace and nobody is talking about linkers in python for example.
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1490 2011-07-18 10:22:33 <justmoon> specifically, <script> tags load a script into the current context, with no option to change that
1491 2011-07-18 10:22:47 <justmoon> that's what you'd have to change if you wanted to fix this issue in the browser
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1497 2011-07-18 10:24:51 <lfm> diki k, hold on
1498 2011-07-18 10:25:10 <prof7bit> so its more like for example in python the difference between "import x" versus "from x import *". There is no difference in how it is "linked", its just a language feature.
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1511 2011-07-18 10:28:17 <lfm> naw, you're right, strchr is ansi, more portable
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1514 2011-07-18 10:28:34 <prof7bit> maybe it is because this man has spent too much time with C++, that can seriously and permanently distort perception of what is good and what is bad and how a language should look like.
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1517 2011-07-18 10:28:58 <lfm> C++ considered harmfull?
1518 2011-07-18 10:29:03 <prof7bit> yes
1519 2011-07-18 10:29:07 <mtrlt> i bet he's never spent much time with anything else than c++ :P
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1522 2011-07-18 10:29:42 <lfm> ya well sometimes the skills for writing books are not the same skills for programming
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1525 2011-07-18 10:29:53 <justmoon> why you guys hatin' on the man? I think the article is quite sensible
1526 2011-07-18 10:30:14 <justmoon> if I tried to write something about C++ I'd probably screw up quite a bit more
1527 2011-07-18 10:30:20 midnightmagic has joined
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1529 2011-07-18 10:30:31 <justmoon> although I would try not to misspell the name I guess :P
1530 2011-07-18 10:30:35 <prof7bit> there are two types of C++ programmers: (1) "i don't like it but I have to use it because everyone uses it" and (2) "C++ is a great language"
1531 2011-07-18 10:30:45 <justmoon> prof7bit, hehe true
1532 2011-07-18 10:31:20 <gmaxwell> "C++ is a great language except for X" and no two (2)s have completely overlapping Xs.
1533 2011-07-18 10:31:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1535 2011-07-18 10:31:22 <lfm> there are certainly worse languages then C/C++
1536 2011-07-18 10:31:39 <gmaxwell> meh, don't speak C and C++ in the same breath. Totally different beasts.
1537 2011-07-18 10:31:40 <doublec> that's not saying a lot :)
1538 2011-07-18 10:31:46 <prof7bit> the (2) crowd are usually 12 year old hobby c0derz and the (1) usually 40+ year old programmers.
1539 2011-07-18 10:31:50 <doublec> Yeah, I much prefer C over C++
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1542 2011-07-18 10:32:12 <xelister> doublec: C is shit
1543 2011-07-18 10:32:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1545 2011-07-18 10:32:22 <Gekz> Vala.
1546 2011-07-18 10:32:38 <doublec> xelister: that says a lot about my opinion of C++ then
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1549 2011-07-18 10:32:54 <doublec> because there's a ton of languages I prefer to C :)
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1551 2011-07-18 10:33:18 <xelister> doublec: if you prefer C over C++ then you are retarded, or writting something strange like say a driver or kernel
1552 2011-07-18 10:33:20 midnightmagic has joined
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1554 2011-07-18 10:33:45 <doublec> plonk
1555 2011-07-18 10:33:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1557 2011-07-18 10:34:13 <gmaxwell> xelister: It's a dubious honor when people look at your comments and start taking them as anti-advice "xelister hate it? it must be good"… but you're bording on it.
1558 2011-07-18 10:34:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1560 2011-07-18 10:34:25 <lfm> diki: oh, ya, gmp is good thing to have anyway
1561 2011-07-18 10:34:41 * xelister kicks doublec in the balls
1562 2011-07-18 10:34:46 <xelister> *plonk*  :o
1563 2011-07-18 10:34:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1565 2011-07-18 10:35:09 <xelister> gmaxwell: afordmentioned people are fell to go fuck themselves with a rake
1566 2011-07-18 10:35:13 <xelister> *free
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1569 2011-07-18 10:35:27 <lfm> ok now that we have settled the language wars, maybe we can move on to something more controversial?
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1572 2011-07-18 10:36:01 <doublec> lfm: emacs is better than vim?
1573 2011-07-18 10:36:06 <mtrlt> both suck ass
1574 2011-07-18 10:36:12 <doublec> hehe
1575 2011-07-18 10:36:12 <prof7bit> ok. I like my code editor to select text with shift + arrow keys.
1576 2011-07-18 10:36:15 <xelister> in C you can take a day to do stuff that is ready to use in C++... so using C is waste of developers time, simple as that
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1579 2011-07-18 10:36:29 <cuddlefish> xelister: in python, on the other hand...
1580 2011-07-18 10:36:39 <xelister> will someone ban midnightmagic please?
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1583 2011-07-18 10:36:54 <prof7bit> unless I am on the cnsole, then everything changes and i am using joe as a tribute to my old C64 assembler times.
1584 2011-07-18 10:36:58 Angelue has joined
1585 2011-07-18 10:37:38 <xelister> nanotube: can someone temp ban midnightmagic please?
1586 2011-07-18 10:37:43 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: I use joe too.
1587 2011-07-18 10:37:50 midnightmagic has joined
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1589 2011-07-18 10:37:57 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: do you use it in regular wordstar mode?
1590 2011-07-18 10:38:03 <prof7bit> yes
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1593 2011-07-18 10:38:40 Angelue has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1596 2011-07-18 10:38:53 <prof7bit> there was a 6502 assmebler for the C64 that had the exact sam ekey bindings. I have spent years inside its editor. So i immediately felt at home when i discovered oe.
1597 2011-07-18 10:38:55 <prof7bit> joe.
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1613 2011-07-18 10:42:46 <genewitch> what dbag
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1621 2011-07-18 10:44:25 <cuddlefish> Okay
1622 2011-07-18 10:44:31 <cuddlefish> who wants to buy a private key
1623 2011-07-18 10:44:33 <cuddlefish> 1PWt2AjV5en6gqg33XsQ7Ba78QDLi9MnUT
1624 2011-07-18 10:44:47 <cuddlefish> generated it all by myself :D
1625 2011-07-18 10:44:49 <cuddlefish> i'm so proud
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1628 2011-07-18 10:45:07 <mtrlt> lol
1629 2011-07-18 10:45:14 <mtrlt> that'd be a good business plan.
1630 2011-07-18 10:45:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1632 2011-07-18 10:45:34 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: did it with only Python and OpenSSL
1633 2011-07-18 10:45:40 <mtrlt> :>
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1642 2011-07-18 10:47:52 <lianj> cuddlefish: now make a transaction with only python and openssl :P
1643 2011-07-18 10:48:04 <cuddlefish> lianj: that's the plan
1644 2011-07-18 10:48:13 <cuddlefish> pycoin
1645 2011-07-18 10:48:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1647 2011-07-18 10:48:29 <cuddlefish> the hell is midnightmagic doing
1648 2011-07-18 10:48:38 * lianj did this with ruby already :P
1649 2011-07-18 10:48:47 <cuddlefish> lianj: quiet, you
1650 2011-07-18 10:48:50 <pixglen> cuddlefish: cool -- how do you get bitcoin(d) to accept your private key?
1651 2011-07-18 10:48:50 midnightmagic has joined
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1653 2011-07-18 10:49:00 <cuddlefish> pixglen: I don't :D
1654 2011-07-18 10:49:12 <cuddlefish> I'm writing my own
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1657 2011-07-18 10:49:36 <lianj> pixglen: you just generate a valid transaction, and make sure you can spent it after receiving on it ;)
1658 2011-07-18 10:49:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1660 2011-07-18 10:49:59 <cuddlefish> /ignore midnightmagic QUITS JOINS
1661 2011-07-18 10:50:08 <pixglen> cuddlefish: you writing your own client then?
1662 2011-07-18 10:50:15 <cuddlefish> pixglen: yep
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1665 2011-07-18 10:50:42 <prof7bit> is there an easy to read and elegant (small and not too much spread across the rest of the code) implementation of the bitcoin transaction script interpreter somewhere so i could have a look at and use as inspiration?
1666 2011-07-18 10:50:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1668 2011-07-18 10:50:51 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: nope!
1669 2011-07-18 10:51:05 <pixglen> cuddlefish: interesting, that sounds pretty useful as a python lib
1670 2011-07-18 10:51:07 <prof7bit> but you will write one?
1671 2011-07-18 10:51:11 <cuddlefish> it's a simple stack machine though, yeah
1672 2011-07-18 10:51:13 <cuddlefish> TRIVIAL
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1675 2011-07-18 10:51:35 <sacarlson> pixglen: there is also this to get export import private keys https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/220
1676 2011-07-18 10:51:43 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: that's in .4
1677 2011-07-18 10:51:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1679 2011-07-18 10:51:55 <sacarlson> .4?
1680 2011-07-18 10:52:05 <cuddlefish> the next version is 0.40
1681 2011-07-18 10:52:15 <cuddlefish> wallet crypto + export/import
1682 2011-07-18 10:52:16 <prof7bit> it would also save some time explaining it in lengthy explanations, the implementation itself should speak for itself.
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1687 2011-07-18 10:52:22 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: in python, at least :P
1688 2011-07-18 10:52:24 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: oh well it might be in MultiCoin sooner
1689 2011-07-18 10:52:33 <forrestv> prof7bit, what exactly are you creating?
1690 2011-07-18 10:52:35 Jegudielsam has joined
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1693 2011-07-18 10:53:13 <prof7bit> i am trying to implement a bitcoin implementation from scratch.
1694 2011-07-18 10:53:18 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: me too :D
1695 2011-07-18 10:53:30 <lianj> prof7bit: in ruby there is a more compact version on bitcoinj's script class
1696 2011-07-18 10:53:32 <jine> prof7bit: implement an implemention? nice work ;P
1697 2011-07-18 10:53:39 <prof7bit> lol
1698 2011-07-18 10:53:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1700 2011-07-18 10:53:55 <jine> No but seriously, sounds good :)
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1702 2011-07-18 10:54:12 <cuddlefish> pycoin tries to be wrong in the right ways
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1705 2011-07-18 10:54:37 <cuddlefish> transactions with no inputs or outputs are perfectly legal
1706 2011-07-18 10:54:43 <cuddlefish> and confuse blockexplorer :P
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1717 2011-07-18 10:56:45 <sacarlson> MultiCoin and MultiCoin-qt have now added namecoin support with a new example config file
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1729 2011-07-18 10:59:42 <lfm> diki, you got gmp built ok then eh?
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1735 2011-07-18 11:00:34 <diki> yup
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1737 2011-07-18 11:00:45 <lfm> diki dunno why binary would be smaller, maybe some bsd lib was linked in
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1740 2011-07-18 11:01:02 <diki> it was 59 on your old one you sent me a while back
1741 2011-07-18 11:01:05 <diki> this one is 29
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1746 2011-07-18 11:01:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping whenever you wake up
1747 2011-07-18 11:01:52 <lfm> hehe on linux it is 13755 bytes
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1752 2011-07-18 11:02:58 <lfm> 10520 bytes if I strip it
1753 2011-07-18 11:03:20 midnightmagic has joined
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1755 2011-07-18 11:03:29 <diki> strip?
1756 2011-07-18 11:03:42 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1757 2011-07-18 11:04:00 <lfm> diki strip is a util to remove some debugging info
1758 2011-07-18 11:04:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1760 2011-07-18 11:04:25 <diki> can you add a strrev to the outputted target?
1761 2011-07-18 11:04:51 midnightmagic has joined
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1763 2011-07-18 11:05:03 <lfm> Id rather not. it is supposed to be a big number
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1768 2011-07-18 11:06:00 <joepie91> um, seems midnightmagic is having some issues?
1769 2011-07-18 11:06:14 <gmaxwell>  /ignore midnightmagic join part quit
1770 2011-07-18 11:06:20 <cuddlefish> yep
1771 2011-07-18 11:06:21 midnightmagic has joined
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1773 2011-07-18 11:06:24 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: not part
1774 2011-07-18 11:06:27 <cuddlefish> that's unneeded
1775 2011-07-18 11:06:38 <gmaxwell> well, unneeded right now. :)
1776 2011-07-18 11:06:41 <cuddlefish> heh
1777 2011-07-18 11:06:46 <gmaxwell> Perhaps he'll fail some other way later!
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1780 2011-07-18 11:07:20 <gmaxwell> (besides, I'm increasing the irc kungfu of the newbies, they'll be confused if that line doesn't work on a join/part flooder)
1781 2011-07-18 11:07:21 <lfm> gmaxya, he'll get banned eventually if he doesnt wake up soon
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1784 2011-07-18 11:07:41 <diki> erm, yeah, i have all my parts,quits and joins in my status
1785 2011-07-18 11:07:45 <gmaxwell> He'd been doing this for two hours.
1786 2011-07-18 11:07:45 <diki> so my chat is clean
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1791 2011-07-18 11:08:38 <diki> all peaceful in my client
1792 2011-07-18 11:09:05 <cuddlefish> jjj
1793 2011-07-18 11:09:19 <cuddlefish> uh
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1798 2011-07-18 11:10:20 <prof7bit> i wonder if a partial implementation of the script interpreter would be enough to simply receive and send coins
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1801 2011-07-18 11:10:46 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: you only need to check sig, really
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1804 2011-07-18 11:10:57 <cuddlefish> all the interesting stuff's off
1805 2011-07-18 11:11:05 <lfm> prof7bit: hardly need it at all, there is just 4 scripts used you could recognize with hard coded matches
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1808 2011-07-18 11:11:39 <gmaxwell> so long as you're behind a trusted working full bitcoind... at least
1809 2011-07-18 11:11:49 <gmaxwell> otherwise people could feed you all kinds of trash. :)
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1818 2011-07-18 11:13:17 <prof7bit> the wiki page about the scripts is incredibly long. this looks like it would take weeks to implement all these
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1821 2011-07-18 11:13:30 <BlueMatt> it would appear that no one bothered to email laszlo to ask him to build .24...emailed him last night and have a mac build in my inbox this morning
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1827 2011-07-18 11:14:23 <prof7bit> implement and *test* them
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1831 2011-07-18 11:14:53 <prof7bit> months
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1836 2011-07-18 11:15:58 <prof7bit> this does not look trivial to me at all.
1837 2011-07-18 11:16:17 <cuddlefish> prof7bit: you don't have to implement them all
1838 2011-07-18 11:16:28 <cuddlefish> there are only like 6 that mainline clients accept
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1845 2011-07-18 11:17:39 <lfm> 6 op codes in 4 different scripts (5 if you include luke-jr's messing about)
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1855 2011-07-18 11:19:50 <justmoon> prof7bit, not too brag, but it took me two days to implement all ops including unit tests :)
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1858 2011-07-18 11:19:57 <prof7bit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG  <-- for example why is this wiki page so long, why does it not simply do what is described in the first 2 sentences, why does it have to creat sub-scripts and all that? only to check a signature?
1859 2011-07-18 11:20:20 midnightmagic has joined
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1861 2011-07-18 11:20:36 <ersi> because someone thinks his idea of a wiki is much better than yours
1862 2011-07-18 11:21:15 <prof7bit> so all that does not belong into the description of OP_CHECKSIG?
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1870 2011-07-18 11:22:09 <lianj> prof7bit: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Script.java
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1902 2011-07-18 11:27:34 <cuddlefish> -----BEGIN EC PRIVATE KEY-----
1903 2011-07-18 11:27:34 <cuddlefish> MHQCAQEEIDhmNUs44khBHbebkazV+4McKeB39mzfHvGR4XRLDm2WoAcGBSuBBAAK
1904 2011-07-18 11:27:37 <cuddlefish> oUQDQgAEwTO4E04OtDunEYfiyMXAAGy04X0Rav+FDFwAU+VNzACLD3k9nguBgYJX
1905 2011-07-18 11:27:39 <cuddlefish> fTVWufsEaOwW6BrboeAxGNUCy3MGwA==
1906 2011-07-18 11:27:44 <cuddlefish> -----END EC PRIVATE KEY-----
1907 2011-07-18 11:27:47 <cuddlefish> 0.5 BTC for y'all
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1918 2011-07-18 11:30:40 <xelister> BlueMatt: /ban midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic
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1921 2011-07-18 11:30:53 <xelister> I think his irc client got audited.
1922 2011-07-18 11:31:00 <BlueMatt> oh god, tat is all midnightmagic...
1923 2011-07-18 11:31:21 midnightmagic has joined
1924 2011-07-18 11:31:21 <BlueMatt> well hopefully hell come find me when he comes back
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1929 2011-07-18 11:36:31 <prof7bit> in the wiki about OP_CHECKSIG, whats all that confusing stuff in the "how it works" section? Whats up with the subscrips and stuff? is this only mentioned to confuse implementers? I don't see how this is relevant for doing what the description says: popping two arguments, checking a signature and pushing the result? what has this atomic operation to do with subscripts and op_codeseparators and stuff?
1930 2011-07-18 11:38:17 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1931 2011-07-18 11:38:27 <lfm> its a description of how a signature is checked.
1932 2011-07-18 11:38:30 <BlueMatt> bbe down for anyone else?
1933 2011-07-18 11:38:52 <justmoon> BlueMatt, looks fine here
1934 2011-07-18 11:39:50 <prof7bit> isn't a signature normally checked by feeding the hash of the message and the signature and the pubkey to the relevant openssl function?
1935 2011-07-18 11:40:03 <justmoon> prof7bit, yes?
1936 2011-07-18 11:40:29 <justmoon> prof7bit, no different with bitcoin
1937 2011-07-18 11:40:58 <lfm> there are other ways bvesideds ssl to do it tho if you prefer
1938 2011-07-18 11:41:06 <prof7bit> then whats up with the codeseparators and deep copying and movimg things around and inserting subscripts
1939 2011-07-18 11:41:31 <justmoon> prof7bit, that's all regarding what your hash actually covers
1940 2011-07-18 11:41:45 <justmoon> prof7bit, i.e. what other transactions are going to valid for the same signature
1941 2011-07-18 11:42:54 <cuddlefish> justmoon: grammar much?
1942 2011-07-18 11:42:59 <justmoon> to be*
1943 2011-07-18 11:43:31 <prof7bit> can this section in the article be somehow translated into plain english?
1944 2011-07-18 11:44:33 <lianj> prof7bit: read the code :P then translate it yourself you like still want to
1945 2011-07-18 11:44:45 <prof7bit> why doesn't it just say "the hash is over the part starting at byte x to byte y"
1946 2011-07-18 11:44:53 <justmoon> prof7bit, it's not that simple
1947 2011-07-18 11:45:01 <lianj> prof7bit: ^-
1948 2011-07-18 11:45:06 liltoe has quit (Quit: wee wee wee)
1949 2011-07-18 11:45:38 <prof7bit> unfortunately the bitcoinj example does not yet implement op_checksig
1950 2011-07-18 11:45:47 Tycale has quit (Quit: Cya)
1951 2011-07-18 11:46:02 <prof7bit> its a FIXME (implement me!)
1952 2011-07-18 11:46:11 <prof7bit> so it is of little help
1953 2011-07-18 11:46:46 <justmoon> prof7bit, bitcoinjs implements the full scripting interpreter:
1954 2011-07-18 11:46:47 <justmoon> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/blob/master/lib/scriptinterpreter.js#L520
1955 2011-07-18 11:46:50 <justmoon> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/blob/master/lib/schema/transaction.js#L349
1956 2011-07-18 11:46:55 <justmoon> that's what you want to look at
1957 2011-07-18 11:47:30 <justmoon> haven't had a chance to really comment it very much though :/
1958 2011-07-18 11:47:35 Tycale has joined
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1960 2011-07-18 11:48:19 <lianj> prof7bit: https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby/blob/master/lib/bitcoin/protocol/tx.rb#L98
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1967 2011-07-18 12:02:33 <BlueMatt> cuddlefish: there are no coins there
1968 2011-07-18 12:02:36 <BlueMatt> :(
1969 2011-07-18 12:03:09 <gmaxwell> Man, I thought I was just importing it wrong.
1970 2011-07-18 12:03:33 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1972 2011-07-18 12:03:57 <upb> crap, i was trying to steal thosecoins aswell!
1973 2011-07-18 12:04:37 <prof7bit> <lianj> prof7bit: read the code :P then translate it yourself you like still want to  <--I am missing the "why", all i see is the "what" in more or less complicated form but the "why" would actually help more
1974 2011-07-18 12:05:04 <prof7bit> the actual purpose of these steps
1975 2011-07-18 12:05:05 <upb> src\Debug>bitcoin.exe -server -rpcuser=user -rpcpassword=password -rpcport=8332 -rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
1976 2011-07-18 12:05:13 <upb> ^- is that correct to start a bitcoind on windows ?
1977 2011-07-18 12:05:30 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1978 2011-07-18 12:05:45 <BlueMatt> if you want gui, I guess
1979 2011-07-18 12:05:57 <lianj> prof7bit: implement it and you know the why :)
1980 2011-07-18 12:06:35 <prof7bit> i must first understand what OP_CHECKSIG is *intended* to do
1981 2011-07-18 12:06:42 <upb> well if i dont, then whats the command line ?
1982 2011-07-18 12:06:56 <BlueMatt> use bitcoind instead of bitcoin
1983 2011-07-18 12:07:00 <justmoon> prof7bit, all that stuff does is blank out certain parts of the transaction before signing it - i.e. if those parts change the transaction is still valid
1984 2011-07-18 12:07:31 <upb> humm, is that a separate build target ?
1985 2011-07-18 12:07:34 <justmoon> prof7bit, so let's say you have two people and they want to create a transaction together they can each sign their respective inputs and then a third party can put the transaction together
1986 2011-07-18 12:07:40 <BlueMatt> upb: yes
1987 2011-07-18 12:07:41 <upb> or the same binary that checks itselfs name
1988 2011-07-18 12:07:44 <upb> ah
1989 2011-07-18 12:08:06 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1990 2011-07-18 12:08:11 <lfm> upb bitcoind has no wx lib stuff
1991 2011-07-18 12:09:00 <upb> guess someone forgot to add it to vc solution :)
1992 2011-07-18 12:09:21 <lfm> you're building with vc?
1993 2011-07-18 12:09:39 <gmaxwell> man, the import stuff takes a long time.
1994 2011-07-18 12:10:32 <gmaxwell> one thing the import should do is defer the blockchain scan, and wait a bit and do it in the background, or something.. because bulk adding sucks the way it is.
1995 2011-07-18 12:10:33 <upb> lfm: yep i already did once
1996 2011-07-18 12:10:52 <lfm> upb wow
1997 2011-07-18 12:10:56 <upb> took half a day to build and get all the fucking deps
1998 2011-07-18 12:11:27 <lianj> justmoon: blank out parts and dropping in the previous tx script. the last one took me a day to realize
1999 2011-07-18 12:12:15 <justmoon> lianj, yep
2000 2011-07-18 12:13:32 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2001 2011-07-18 12:13:45 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2002 2011-07-18 12:13:56 <BlueMatt> can someone with a mac test laszlo's .24 build: http://heliacal.net/~solar/bitcoin/builds/MacOSX-Intel-0.3.24/bitcoin-v0.3.24.zip
2003 2011-07-18 12:14:35 noagendamarket has joined
2004 2011-07-18 12:15:18 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: they may be unconfirmed
2005 2011-07-18 12:15:38 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: I did send to 1PWt2AjV5en6gqg33XsQ7Ba78QDLi9MnUT
2006 2011-07-18 12:16:10 <BlueMatt> cuddlefish: wrong address
2007 2011-07-18 12:16:17 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: fffffs
2008 2011-07-18 12:16:17 <BlueMatt> the posted key was 165ev4...
2009 2011-07-18 12:16:23 Vishnu has joined
2010 2011-07-18 12:16:23 <mtrlt> ha :P
2011 2011-07-18 12:16:25 <WakiMiko> lol
2012 2011-07-18 12:16:28 <BlueMatt> 165ev4CmvejHAsHmwb8DzjEkmtH2DTP1GG
2013 2011-07-18 12:16:32 <upb> all this wasted effort!
2014 2011-07-18 12:16:35 <Vishnu> hai
2015 2011-07-18 12:16:44 <mtrlt> you sent 0.25 BTC to eternal(ish) sleep
2016 2011-07-18 12:16:48 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: hmm
2017 2011-07-18 12:16:54 <cuddlefish> the DER-encoded pubic key is 0V0\x10\x06\x07*\x86H\xce=\x02\x01\x06\x05+\x81\x04\x00\n\x03B\x00\x04\xc13\xb8\x13N\x0e\xb4;\xa7\x11\x87\xe2\xc8\xc5\xc0\x00l\xb4\xe1}\x11j\xff\x85\x0c\\\x00S\xe5M\xcc\x00\x8b\x0fy=\x9e\x0b\x81\x81\x82W}5V\xb9\xfb\x04h\xec\x16\xe8\x1a\xdb\xa1\xe01\x18\xd5\x02\xcbs\x06\xc0
2018 2011-07-18 12:16:57 <Vishnu> plz tell me how can i ude bitcoin API
2019 2011-07-18 12:17:21 <gmaxwell> 165ev4CmvejHAsHmwb8DzjEkmtH2DTP1GG is also what I got.
2020 2011-07-18 12:17:27 <BlueMatt> arg, Im not gonna import that...upb or gmax-canary want to import that der?
2021 2011-07-18 12:17:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ^
2022 2011-07-18 12:17:38 <WakiMiko> Vishnu: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29
2023 2011-07-18 12:17:43 <BlueMatt> why does that guy use gmax...
2024 2011-07-18 12:17:47 <Vishnu> thnx
2025 2011-07-18 12:18:05 <upb> wth is that format cuddlefish :P
2026 2011-07-18 12:18:09 <cuddlefish> upb: DER
2027 2011-07-18 12:18:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's the bot I brought up last night that squacks if a bitcoin node fails or throws valgrind errors.
2028 2011-07-18 12:18:35 <gmaxwell> It should never make any noise, but if it does you should pay attention.
2029 2011-07-18 12:18:37 <upb> some kind of part ascii part encoded hex dump
2030 2011-07-18 12:18:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ah
2031 2011-07-18 12:18:52 <BlueMatt> nice
2032 2011-07-18 12:20:00 <gmaxwell> 1EDkXBjrGiNtin6AJspMLeFDrJsaFRjm2T is the byteswapped version of that .. nothing there either.
2033 2011-07-18 12:20:09 <upb> built the branch from sipa to import it and all i got was http://pastebin.com/msDhz6pY
2034 2011-07-18 12:20:10 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: how did you convert it
2035 2011-07-18 12:20:12 <upb> ÖD
2036 2011-07-18 12:20:13 <upb> ;D
2037 2011-07-18 12:20:25 <forrestv> mmh, thanks for visiting diki.
2038 2011-07-18 12:20:36 <gmaxwell> openssl ec -text -in... and then I stuffed the private key directly into a bignum.
2039 2011-07-18 12:20:45 <cuddlefish> hmmm
2040 2011-07-18 12:20:59 <gmaxwell> (I tried base58 encoding it first but had problems)
2041 2011-07-18 12:21:16 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: so, wait, what? how was DER involved
2042 2011-07-18 12:21:34 <Vishnu> where should i install Bitcoin installer
2043 2011-07-18 12:21:37 <upb> the file you posted was PEM/DER
2044 2011-07-18 12:21:38 <Vishnu> is it on the server
2045 2011-07-18 12:21:39 <gmaxwell> openssl decoded the pem, and showed me the raw private key.
2046 2011-07-18 12:22:10 <tcatm> BlueMatt: os x build starts and downloads blockchain
2047 2011-07-18 12:22:12 <cuddlefish> hrrrrrrm
2048 2011-07-18 12:22:18 * cuddlefish looks more carefully
2049 2011-07-18 12:22:28 <BlueMatt> tcatm: thanks, now we just need jgarzik or gavin to upload and update
2050 2011-07-18 12:23:14 molecular has joined
2051 2011-07-18 12:23:19 <WakiMiko> how come gavin doesnt do the mac builds? doesnt he work on a mac?
2052 2011-07-18 12:23:28 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2053 2011-07-18 12:23:38 <BlueMatt> because he isnt a mac dev, he just happens to use a mac
2054 2011-07-18 12:24:34 <tcatm> can the binary be build using a makefile?
2055 2011-07-18 12:24:48 <lfm> on mac?
2056 2011-07-18 12:24:52 <BlueMatt> yea, but it needs the deps
2057 2011-07-18 12:24:55 <BlueMatt> which is a pain
2058 2011-07-18 12:25:20 <WakiMiko> doesnt he have to build bitcoin several times a day anyway when he is working on it?
2059 2011-07-18 12:25:42 <lfm> not on mac, he also has pc
2060 2011-07-18 12:25:56 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko: he builds bitcoind, not gui
2061 2011-07-18 12:26:00 <BlueMatt> so he doesnt do wx stuff
2062 2011-07-18 12:26:08 <lfm> oh
2063 2011-07-18 12:26:14 <BlueMatt> so he doesnt do wx stuff
2064 2011-07-18 12:26:20 <BlueMatt> oops, wrong window
2065 2011-07-18 12:26:26 <BlueMatt> meant to up, enter in terminal
2066 2011-07-18 12:26:56 <WakiMiko> i see
2067 2011-07-18 12:27:08 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2068 2011-07-18 12:27:17 Speeder has joined
2069 2011-07-18 12:27:25 <tcatm> BlueMatt: would a VM with OS X and ssh access help?
2070 2011-07-18 12:27:42 cuqaa has joined
2071 2011-07-18 12:27:45 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: also ./privkeyimport.py results in an address of 165ev4CmvejHAsHmwb8DzjEkmtH2DTP1GG too
2072 2011-07-18 12:28:10 <gmaxwell> openssl ec -outform DER -param_enc explicit -out a.der -in crapcromcuddlefish
2073 2011-07-18 12:28:13 <BlueMatt> tcatm: Ive got an osx vm, but I dont feel like setting it all up, laszlo said he will gladly keep building, but he said no one bothered to tell him .24 was out...he doesnt actively watch bitcoin, just gets notified to build
2074 2011-07-18 12:28:15 <cuddlefish> hmmm.
2075 2011-07-18 12:28:17 Vishnu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2076 2011-07-18 12:28:18 <cuddlefish> fffffss
2077 2011-07-18 12:28:20 <gmaxwell> python ./privkeyimport.py -b -n a.der
2078 2011-07-18 12:28:24 <gmaxwell> ...
2079 2011-07-18 12:28:24 <gmaxwell> Address:     165ev4CmvejHAsHmwb8DzjEkmtH2DTP1GG
2080 2011-07-18 12:28:33 <BlueMatt> so...in the future someone just needs to tell laszlo when new version come out ;)
2081 2011-07-18 12:28:38 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I see :)
2082 2011-07-18 12:29:20 <gmaxwell> I think that was the most work I've ever done to not make six bucks.
2083 2011-07-18 12:29:25 <upb> :D
2084 2011-07-18 12:29:26 <gmaxwell> :)
2085 2011-07-18 12:29:34 <upb> * all the people that tried
2086 2011-07-18 12:29:42 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2087 2011-07-18 12:29:54 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: AHA
2088 2011-07-18 12:29:56 <gmaxwell> Well, I'm happy that I got it right on my own. And I did end up with a testing report for the import wallet branch.
2089 2011-07-18 12:30:12 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: I hashed the DER-encoded key!
2090 2011-07-18 12:30:18 <cuqaa> hello. anyone can tell me what the pushpool request.log actually logs. does it log submitted shares only? because I get quite some requests of an empty username
2091 2011-07-18 12:30:19 * cuddlefish derps
2092 2011-07-18 12:30:25 <cuqaa> [2011-07-18 02:04:12.14616] ::ffff:72.91.245.188 ajfuqi "/"
2093 2011-07-18 12:30:26 <cuqaa> [2011-07-18 02:04:12.114522] ::ffff:136.186.226.30 - "/"
2094 2011-07-18 12:30:28 <cuqaa> like this
2095 2011-07-18 12:30:46 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: haha, so thats .5 BTC given to everyone.
2096 2011-07-18 12:30:57 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: go add it to the lost coin thread.
2097 2011-07-18 12:31:03 <[Tycho]> cuqaa, may be it was Ufasoft ?
2098 2011-07-18 12:31:12 <cuqaa> ufasoft?
2099 2011-07-18 12:31:18 <upb> who wants to try to import this and claim coins! http://pastebin.com/LnEHRPbA
2100 2011-07-18 12:31:24 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: i'll just generate a few addresses until I find it, I have a fast CPU
2101 2011-07-18 12:31:36 <BlueMatt> upb: did you actually send coins there?
2102 2011-07-18 12:31:39 <upb> no :D
2103 2011-07-18 12:31:45 <BlueMatt> lol
2104 2011-07-18 12:31:46 <upb> but cant hurt to try
2105 2011-07-18 12:31:48 <upb> :)
2106 2011-07-18 12:31:54 molecular has joined
2107 2011-07-18 12:31:58 <gmaxwell> yes it can hurt, the rescan is slllloowww.
2108 2011-07-18 12:32:03 <upb> hehe
2109 2011-07-18 12:32:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh no its not, use a ramdisk for ~/.bitcoin
2110 2011-07-18 12:33:20 <upb> weird, started up with -printtodebugger  -server -rpcuser=user -rpcpassword=password -rpcport=8332 -rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
2111 2011-07-18 12:33:24 <upb> and it doesnt listen
2112 2011-07-18 12:34:07 <lfm> add -server
2113 2011-07-18 12:34:14 <lfm> oh nm
2114 2011-07-18 12:35:09 <sacarlson> anyone ever thought about a method of plugin's like maybe http://drdobbs.com/cpp/204202899?cid=RSSfeed%255FDDJ%255FCpp ?
2115 2011-07-18 12:35:38 <WakiMiko> i want silkroad integration into the main client
2116 2011-07-18 12:35:46 <BlueMatt> no you dont
2117 2011-07-18 12:35:49 <WakiMiko> hahaahah
2118 2011-07-18 12:35:54 <WakiMiko> yeah i dont
2119 2011-07-18 12:35:55 <gmaxwell> Bonsaibuddy4Bitcoin
2120 2011-07-18 12:36:05 <gmaxwell> UltimateBitcoinToolbar++
2121 2011-07-18 12:37:32 <gmaxwell> aww, duh, all zeros is not a valid key.
2122 2011-07-18 12:37:48 <upb> wonder why CBase58Data::~CBase58Data() throws an assertion failure when vchData.size() == 0
2123 2011-07-18 12:38:21 <upb> ah, ofc
2124 2011-07-18 12:38:22 <upb> if (size() <= _Pos)
2125 2011-07-18 12:38:26 <upb> it tries to access [0]
2126 2011-07-18 12:38:33 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2127 2011-07-18 12:38:48 <upb> in memset(&vchData[0], 0, vchData.size());
2128 2011-07-18 12:43:06 <upb> so basically { CBitcoinAddress address; } this fails :)
2129 2011-07-18 12:44:56 <cuddlefish> Hmm
2130 2011-07-18 12:44:57 <cuddlefish> 165ev4CmvejHAsHmwb8DzjEkmtH2DTP1GG
2131 2011-07-18 12:44:59 <cuddlefish> YES YES YES
2132 2011-07-18 12:45:03 * cuddlefish does a little dance
2133 2011-07-18 12:45:32 <cuddlefish> gotta convert to an integer, convert to a string, then hash it... and the CHECKSUM
2134 2011-07-18 12:46:18 molecular has joined
2135 2011-07-18 12:47:22 <cuddlefish> now I will generate all the addresses! muahaha
2136 2011-07-18 12:47:31 Xunie has quit (Quit: Can God microwave a taco so hot that not even *HE* can eat it without burns?)
2137 2011-07-18 12:47:35 <upb> humm, how was that possible ?
2138 2011-07-18 12:47:52 <cuddlefish> upb: what
2139 2011-07-18 12:48:01 <upb> that you generated the private key for an arbitary address
2140 2011-07-18 12:48:06 bobke has joined
2141 2011-07-18 12:48:07 <cuddlefish> o
2142 2011-07-18 12:48:08 <cuddlefish> no
2143 2011-07-18 12:48:10 <moa7> @bluematt : neat idea, ramdisk, forgot about those
2144 2011-07-18 12:48:21 <cuddlefish> upb: yeah, totally broke ECDSA, film at 11
2145 2011-07-18 12:48:21 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2146 2011-07-18 12:48:24 <upb> :D
2147 2011-07-18 12:48:27 <upb> so what did you do ?
2148 2011-07-18 12:48:36 <cuddlefish> No, I just fixed my address encoder
2149 2011-07-18 12:48:41 <upb> oh
2150 2011-07-18 12:48:45 <cuddlefish> I had the right /key/ but wasn't encoding it right
2151 2011-07-18 12:48:50 <gmaxwell> He made a private key... then encoded the address wrong.
2152 2011-07-18 12:48:51 <upb> ahh makes sense
2153 2011-07-18 12:48:54 <gmaxwell> then sent coin to a blackhole.
2154 2011-07-18 12:49:04 <gmaxwell> Then made us search but not find anything because he got it wrong. :(
2155 2011-07-18 12:49:06 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: I'm sending some BTC to the actual address now
2156 2011-07-18 12:49:23 <cuddlefish> also: that address contains HAsH. lol
2157 2011-07-18 12:49:40 <kinlo> damn, you guys already took cuddlefish's bitcoins? :p
2158 2011-07-18 12:49:43 davex__ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2159 2011-07-18 12:49:54 <BlueMatt> no, they dont exist yet...
2160 2011-07-18 12:49:56 <kinlo> I have to work right now, can't steal coins!
2161 2011-07-18 12:50:00 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: one moment please
2162 2011-07-18 12:50:14 <kinlo> but I would like to try tonight :)
2163 2011-07-18 12:50:22 <cuddlefish> SENT.
2164 2011-07-18 12:50:34 <gmaxwell> taken
2165 2011-07-18 12:50:40 <upb> grrrr
2166 2011-07-18 12:50:41 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2167 2011-07-18 12:50:49 <BlueMatt> damn, dont have a modded bitcoin that will let me send pre-confirm...
2168 2011-07-18 12:50:53 <BlueMatt> should have done that
2169 2011-07-18 12:50:56 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: so they signed and everything?
2170 2011-07-18 12:50:57 <cuddlefish> yay
2171 2011-07-18 12:51:18 <cuddlefish> wanted to make sure I was on the right curve
2172 2011-07-18 12:51:20 <upb> mines still in  bitcoin.exe!LoadBlockIndex(bool fAllowNew=true)  Line 1494 + 0x8 bytesC++
2173 2011-07-18 12:51:26 <upb> for 15 min
2174 2011-07-18 12:53:06 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I guess I could add that switch config in MultiCoin,  I already override the time for mined coins to be used
2175 2011-07-18 12:53:06 moa7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2176 2011-07-18 12:53:24 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: won't other clients ignore your transactions then?
2177 2011-07-18 12:53:24 <BlueMatt> why would you do that?
2178 2011-07-18 12:53:37 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: they just get paid later
2179 2011-07-18 12:53:50 <cuddlefish> yeah
2180 2011-07-18 12:53:54 <cuddlefish> so just less confirms?
2181 2011-07-18 12:53:59 <sacarlson> yes
2182 2011-07-18 12:54:03 <cuddlefish> i see
2183 2011-07-18 12:54:22 davex__ has joined
2184 2011-07-18 12:54:26 <sacarlson> but I set the same on both sides of a net and wala
2185 2011-07-18 12:54:28 alfakini has joined
2186 2011-07-18 12:54:52 alfakini has left ()
2187 2011-07-18 12:56:15 <iddo> is there good way to print wallet.dat addresses with corresponding private keys as plaintext base58 or base64 etc.?
2188 2011-07-18 12:56:25 <diki> do you guys know how to close a window of a process that isnt running?
2189 2011-07-18 12:56:34 <cuddlefish> diki: xkill might work
2190 2011-07-18 12:56:40 <diki> <windows
2191 2011-07-18 12:56:41 minimoose has joined
2192 2011-07-18 12:56:42 <cuddlefish> iddo: sipa's dumpprivkey patch
2193 2011-07-18 12:57:02 <lfm> for mswin you reboot
2194 2011-07-18 12:57:13 <upb> lol
2195 2011-07-18 12:57:16 <upb> try logging out ?
2196 2011-07-18 12:57:27 <diki> dunno why the window is staying there despite the process not running
2197 2011-07-18 12:57:56 <diki> it's like having a program running, which actually isnt running
2198 2011-07-18 12:58:00 <iddo> cuddlefish: so i need to recompile the bitcoin client for that?
2199 2011-07-18 12:58:07 <gmaxwell> So another bad thing about sipa's stuff.. the fact that it uses base58 makes it maximally hard to convert it into an efficient binary encoding.
2200 2011-07-18 12:58:15 <gmaxwell> E.g. for storing it on paper.
2201 2011-07-18 12:58:35 <upb> well you could always DECODE it from base58 and then .. :D
2202 2011-07-18 12:58:46 <gmaxwell> upb: yes, but you need more software then.
2203 2011-07-18 12:58:51 <upb> what the hell is the obsession with base58 anyway, its a rpc interface
2204 2011-07-18 12:58:56 <gmaxwell> vs if it was in base64 i'd already have that software.
2205 2011-07-18 12:58:58 <upb> i can understand why its used for addresses
2206 2011-07-18 12:59:06 <cuddlefish> upb: in the olden days, there was no bitcoind
2207 2011-07-18 12:59:19 <gmaxwell> WE HAVE A HAMMER. ALL THINGS ARE NAILS.
2208 2011-07-18 12:59:20 <cuddlefish> thus, the RPC interface is bolted on and utter shite
2209 2011-07-18 12:59:25 <upb> :)
2210 2011-07-18 12:59:39 <upb> even if its shite, doesnt mean stuff has to be in b58 to pass through it
2211 2011-07-18 12:59:44 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ya I thought base58 is at least a shorter string than hex
2212 2011-07-18 12:59:47 darkskiez has joined
2213 2011-07-18 13:00:03 <gmaxwell> Yes, well, better than hex indeed.
2214 2011-07-18 13:01:01 <cuddlefish> honestly, I'd like the PGP wordlist
2215 2011-07-18 13:01:07 <cuddlefish> if we're encoding stuff
2216 2011-07-18 13:01:12 <gmaxwell> PGP wordlist is phonetic though.
2217 2011-07-18 13:01:22 <sacarlson> so unless you have lot of paper, but there is also the weard barcode method
2218 2011-07-18 13:01:35 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: base58 is non-visually-similar
2219 2011-07-18 13:01:38 <gmaxwell> I've got a wordlist where you only need the first three letters of every word...
2220 2011-07-18 13:01:52 <gmaxwell> and where all the prefixes were chosen to maximize the overall visual difference.
2221 2011-07-18 13:02:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: odd, you claim to have the coins, but bitcoincharts shows cuddlefish's coins going to my address
2222 2011-07-18 13:02:21 <diki> gmax, are you scamming someone?
2223 2011-07-18 13:02:25 <cuddlefish> muahaha, perhaps gmaxwell's transaction didn't propagate fast enough
2224 2011-07-18 13:02:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: awesome double spend then.
2225 2011-07-18 13:02:39 <cuddlefish> woo hoo, pycoin's breaking the network already
2226 2011-07-18 13:02:47 <diki> heehaw
2227 2011-07-18 13:02:53 <diki> 50% network power my ass
2228 2011-07-18 13:02:57 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: for paper maybe you should look at that web java thing I played with with the image you decode that can be put on paper
2229 2011-07-18 13:02:59 <noagendamarket> pycoin ?
2230 2011-07-18 13:03:01 <diki> you can do it with 0.001
2231 2011-07-18 13:03:10 <cuddlefish> noagendamarket: before carrot, i'm doing pycoin
2232 2011-07-18 13:03:13 <noagendamarket> 3.14coin  lol
2233 2011-07-18 13:03:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: or you arent well connected...well see whos gets into a block :)
2234 2011-07-18 13:03:25 <cuddlefish> block raaace
2235 2011-07-18 13:03:36 * noagendamarket hides
2236 2011-07-18 13:03:40 <nanotube> woo hehe
2237 2011-07-18 13:03:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: unfortunately I had my node with the key in it offline when he said he was sending it.
2238 2011-07-18 13:03:53 * noagendamarket wants carrots :)
2239 2011-07-18 13:03:55 <gmaxwell> So I think I had one connection up when the transaction came in.
2240 2011-07-18 13:04:09 <BlueMatt> well who knows, my node only has 8 I think...
2241 2011-07-18 13:04:10 <gmaxwell> and as soon as he said he was sending it I'd started a sendtoaddress loop.
2242 2011-07-18 13:04:24 <BlueMatt> well, now it has 150, damn that goes up quick
2243 2011-07-18 13:04:41 <diki> i have 889 connections
2244 2011-07-18 13:04:46 <diki> ....NOT
2245 2011-07-18 13:05:06 <BlueMatt> the whole people arent upgrading thing isnt 100% true, but it is true that people who have upgraded arent accepting connections, my node hits 150 within seconds of coming online...
2246 2011-07-18 13:05:36 <forrestv> diki, can you come back into #p2pool and explain? :P
2247 2011-07-18 13:06:00 * BlueMatt thinks 0.4 nodes should silently drop connections to nodes older than .24
2248 2011-07-18 13:06:06 <cuddlefish> lol
2249 2011-07-18 13:06:15 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: yay, fork
2250 2011-07-18 13:06:29 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: who has the message keys?
2251 2011-07-18 13:06:37 <BlueMatt> gavin
2252 2011-07-18 13:06:43 <BlueMatt> and satoshi...
2253 2011-07-18 13:07:08 <phungus> so some people just have to go and coerce Gavin?
2254 2011-07-18 13:07:12 <phungus> waterboarding and such?
2255 2011-07-18 13:07:20 <cuddlefish> phungus: that's just popping up a messagebox
2256 2011-07-18 13:07:29 <BlueMatt> though maybe 0.4 nodes could require at least one connection to a .24+ node, otherwise continue trying to make outgoing ones...
2257 2011-07-18 13:07:32 <phungus> that's sucky
2258 2011-07-18 13:07:34 <BlueMatt> though I suppose dnsseed fixes that anyway
2259 2011-07-18 13:07:36 <cuddlefish> phungus: intended for 'ZOMG ur client is haxable'
2260 2011-07-18 13:07:40 <phungus> oh ok
2261 2011-07-18 13:07:47 <phungus> heh
2262 2011-07-18 13:07:54 <MagicalTux> was anything changed with .24+ nodes ?
2263 2011-07-18 13:07:56 <phungus> not that we would want to see Gavin waterboarded. :-)
2264 2011-07-18 13:08:00 <MagicalTux> (in terms of connection)
2265 2011-07-18 13:08:06 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: yea, they are actually able to distribute blocks
2266 2011-07-18 13:08:08 <BlueMatt> .23 isnt
2267 2011-07-18 13:08:12 <MagicalTux> :D
2268 2011-07-18 13:08:13 cjdelisle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2269 2011-07-18 13:08:14 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: ... what
2270 2011-07-18 13:08:14 <BlueMatt> as of large block sizes like a month ago
2271 2011-07-18 13:08:19 <cuddlefish> oh, right, flooding protection
2272 2011-07-18 13:08:32 <BlueMatt> see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21767.msg373830#msg373830
2273 2011-07-18 13:08:44 <BlueMatt> if you are running a .23 node, please, please, please just turn it off
2274 2011-07-18 13:08:49 agricocb has joined
2275 2011-07-18 13:08:58 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: remind me, what's testnet's version #
2276 2011-07-18 13:09:01 <gmaxwell> not just .23 .. less than .24
2277 2011-07-18 13:09:15 <iddo> so the dumpprivkey patch will be merged into upstream soon? i just want to print addresses+privatekeys plaintext, none of the other features
2278 2011-07-18 13:09:21 <cuddlefish> iddo: yeah
2279 2011-07-18 13:09:25 <BlueMatt> yea if its less than .23, you should go crawl in a hole and die
2280 2011-07-18 13:09:31 <iddo> cool
2281 2011-07-18 13:09:41 <BlueMatt> cuddlefish: isnt it 111?
2282 2011-07-18 13:09:48 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: Ah, yep
2283 2011-07-18 13:09:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hey, so I started up another node with that key, and I see your transaction in list transactions, but it's freaky:
2284 2011-07-18 13:10:03 <gmaxwell>        "address" : "1Wh4bh",
2285 2011-07-18 13:10:07 <cuddlefish> ... wut
2286 2011-07-18 13:10:20 <cuddlefish> you're missing the actual key, looks like
2287 2011-07-18 13:10:22 cjdelisle has joined
2288 2011-07-18 13:10:25 <cuddlefish> heh
2289 2011-07-18 13:10:30 <cuddlefish> well, hash
2290 2011-07-18 13:10:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats it, just 6 chars?
2291 2011-07-18 13:10:42 <mtrlt> lol
2292 2011-07-18 13:10:54 <BlueMatt> something is broken on that client...
2293 2011-07-18 13:10:57 <gmaxwell> this is a node compiled with the sipa import stuff.
2294 2011-07-18 13:11:34 <gmaxwell> if anyone else wants in on the doublespend game, the private key in importkey form is 5JF8Dz3yAx5BZjwcsTQLGjYhy7B5SBg9HKACBP4NmjGgme9yJmx
2295 2011-07-18 13:11:38 <BlueMatt> it shows you that in listtransactions?
2296 2011-07-18 13:11:45 <cuddlefish> Python:
2297 2011-07-18 13:11:46 <cuddlefish> Exception: Don't instantiate me, you moron!
2298 2011-07-18 13:11:48 <cuddlefish> ... okay.
2299 2011-07-18 13:11:58 <BlueMatt> haha
2300 2011-07-18 13:12:11 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2301 2011-07-18 13:12:32 <gmaxwell> http://pastebin.com/wL1adMMY
2302 2011-07-18 13:12:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the full address in my client is shown as 1EdawPCb4rhMxz1UapNnA9tZZt6ZoqaPrS
2303 2011-07-18 13:13:09 <BlueMatt> thats...odd
2304 2011-07-18 13:13:26 <BlueMatt> mine shows same txid, etc but the right addr
2305 2011-07-18 13:13:31 <cuddlefish> aaw, my little key is all grown up
2306 2011-07-18 13:13:52 <diki> can someone tell me why python has this self crap as an argument or whatever when defining a function>
2307 2011-07-18 13:14:06 <diki> def ihatepython(self...
2308 2011-07-18 13:14:18 <cuddlefish> diki: that's only for methods.
2309 2011-07-18 13:14:28 <cuddlefish> diki: self is the equivalent of this
2310 2011-07-18 13:14:37 <mtrlt> it's still stupid ;<
2311 2011-07-18 13:15:01 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: or so you'd think
2312 2011-07-18 13:15:02 <cuddlefish> BUT
2313 2011-07-18 13:15:15 <gmaxwell> Hm. it would be interesting to mark an address as "tained" in bitcoin— never return it as an address, and if anything lands it in, instantly send it to a non-tainted address.
2314 2011-07-18 13:15:15 <cuddlefish> method calls implicitly pass self
2315 2011-07-18 13:15:38 <mtrlt> yes, having it in the arguments like that is odd.
2316 2011-07-18 13:15:47 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: not really.
2317 2011-07-18 13:15:53 <cuddlefish> you can then do all sorts of fun like:
2318 2011-07-18 13:15:58 <gmaxwell> so, e.g. if your wallet is stolen, you mark all your old keys as tainted.
2319 2011-07-18 13:16:09 <cuddlefish> if you want to do a super-like thing, with a specific ancestor
2320 2011-07-18 13:16:43 <cuddlefish> class Foo(): def bar(self): self.baz = True
2321 2011-07-18 13:16:45 <diki> def MyFistInGuidovanRossumSface
2322 2011-07-18 13:16:49 Zeiris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2323 2011-07-18 13:17:01 <BlueMatt> I think Im gonna go make a nonstandard tx with these .495 btc and see who can claim that :)
2324 2011-07-18 13:17:17 Zeiris has joined
2325 2011-07-18 13:17:21 <cuddlefish> class Quux(): def quuux(self): Foo.bar(self)
2326 2011-07-18 13:17:27 <cuddlefish> then self.baz is true!
2327 2011-07-18 13:17:36 <cuddlefish> you can actually call them as functions
2328 2011-07-18 13:17:44 <cuddlefish> with arbitrary objectrs
2329 2011-07-18 13:18:00 <diki> dunno why on earth google used python
2330 2011-07-18 13:18:15 <BlueMatt> because its a really nice language, when you get to know it
2331 2011-07-18 13:18:19 <cuddlefish> ^
2332 2011-07-18 13:18:25 <diki> yes i did get to know it
2333 2011-07-18 13:18:28 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: my criticism was mainly: why do i have to write it in the argument list.
2334 2011-07-18 13:18:29 <cuddlefish> also: GENERATORS
2335 2011-07-18 13:18:34 <cuddlefish> OH GOD THE GENERATORS
2336 2011-07-18 13:18:35 <diki> it spews errors if you make a wrong space
2337 2011-07-18 13:18:42 <b4epoche> It's very popular in the scientific community
2338 2011-07-18 13:18:42 <cuddlefish> diki: solution: IDE
2339 2011-07-18 13:18:53 <diki> i use only one editor
2340 2011-07-18 13:18:54 <cuddlefish> also GENERATORS.
2341 2011-07-18 13:18:59 <diki> it's called Notepad++
2342 2011-07-18 13:18:59 <BlueMatt> bitcoin wiki down for anyone else?
2343 2011-07-18 13:19:10 <cuddlefish> diki: yeah, there's a python mode for that.
2344 2011-07-18 13:19:18 * b4epoche has got to start taking notes on the characters in here...
2345 2011-07-18 13:19:19 <cuddlefish> GENERATORS
2346 2011-07-18 13:19:19 <diki> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
2347 2011-07-18 13:19:21 <cuddlefish> srsly.
2348 2011-07-18 13:19:29 * b4epoche forgot diki was the Notepad person...
2349 2011-07-18 13:19:34 <cuddlefish> you can make infinite lists!
2350 2011-07-18 13:19:40 <mtrlt> b4epoche: notepad++ != notepad
2351 2011-07-18 13:19:45 <cuddlefish> you can return intermediate results!
2352 2011-07-18 13:20:08 <noagendamarket> http://twitter.com/#!/ClubAlpaca   heh
2353 2011-07-18 13:20:09 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: btw, thanks for making good on your goosechase this morning. :)
2354 2011-07-18 13:20:11 <cuddlefish> you can wait seamlessly for IO, and do other things in the meantime
2355 2011-07-18 13:20:29 <b4epoche> mtrlt:  w/e
2356 2011-07-18 13:20:34 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: if you happen to generate that address, tell me :P
2357 2011-07-18 13:20:43 <mtrlt> b4epoche: :D
2358 2011-07-18 13:21:07 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it's lost forever. You should log that to the lost coins thread.
2359 2011-07-18 13:21:26 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: I might generate it again!
2360 2011-07-18 13:21:38 <cuddlefish> and then burst into flames
2361 2011-07-18 13:21:42 <gmaxwell> yea...
2362 2011-07-18 13:21:43 <cuddlefish> and then the earth explodes.
2363 2011-07-18 13:21:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: so, the network advanced one block but cuddlefish's transaction has not been mined.
2364 2011-07-18 13:22:21 <diki> cuddlefish:and then the universe shrinks
2365 2011-07-18 13:22:27 <diki> collapses
2366 2011-07-18 13:22:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: odd, I put a fee in on my tx...youd think someone would want that
2367 2011-07-18 13:22:46 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: I never made a transaction
2368 2011-07-18 13:22:53 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: gmaxwell might have block-blocked you
2369 2011-07-18 13:22:54 vigilyn has joined
2370 2011-07-18 13:23:09 <cuddlefish> since if his got to most of the nodes
2371 2011-07-18 13:23:13 <cuddlefish> the miners might ignore it
2372 2011-07-18 13:23:23 <cuddlefish> but your peers would reject your transaction
2373 2011-07-18 13:23:33 <cuddlefish> since they'd see those coins as spent
2374 2011-07-18 13:23:48 <BlueMatt> well, we'll just have to wait and see :)
2375 2011-07-18 13:24:12 <cuddlefish> well, this is the worst library I've seen yet
2376 2011-07-18 13:24:15 <cuddlefish> http://pyasn1.sourceforge.net/#1.1.6
2377 2011-07-18 13:24:23 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2378 2011-07-18 13:24:29 <cuddlefish> instead of a string to hold binary data
2379 2011-07-18 13:24:35 <cuddlefish> they use... basically a tuple
2380 2011-07-18 13:24:57 <gmaxwell> More likely that too many miners are running old bitcoind and don't reconize the sub 0.01 fee as sufficient.
2381 2011-07-18 13:25:32 <cuddlefish> frankly, I'd like to see the following fee structure
2382 2011-07-18 13:25:44 <cuddlefish> the earliest transactions can get in free
2383 2011-07-18 13:25:53 <cuddlefish> as the block fills up, the fee limit increases
2384 2011-07-18 13:26:05 <cuddlefish> when it's 1/2 full, maybe a 0.05 fee
2385 2011-07-18 13:26:09 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: ... you mean the system already in use?
2386 2011-07-18 13:26:14 <cuddlefish> at 3/4, a 0.25 fee
2387 2011-07-18 13:26:15 <cuddlefish> and so on
2388 2011-07-18 13:26:24 <gmaxwell> It does something like that.
2389 2011-07-18 13:26:28 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: not just a 'kiddie pool' for free transactions
2390 2011-07-18 13:26:49 <gmaxwell> it actually increases the cost per byte as the block becomes larger.
2391 2011-07-18 13:26:58 <cuddlefish> oh, well, TIL.
2392 2011-07-18 13:27:17 <MagicalTux> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/b96a37e480b803117304267edc756afdd8db04c1af64263dd885893021a6dd50#o1 <- for reference, last time's 8 bitcoin transaction that didn't want to go through at 10BTC
2393 2011-07-18 13:27:34 <MagicalTux> (this single transaction is 44kB)
2394 2011-07-18 13:27:38 <cuddlefish> hmmm.
2395 2011-07-18 13:27:43 <MagicalTux> (with 247 inputs)
2396 2011-07-18 13:27:43 <gmaxwell> hm. perhaps a bug with >256 inputs?
2397 2011-07-18 13:27:51 <cuddlefish> It looks like a transaction with no outputs or inputs is... legal?
2398 2011-07-18 13:27:53 <cuddlefish> wut
2399 2011-07-18 13:28:23 <gmaxwell> otherwise, there was that check if the txn was too big to fail.. 44kB isn't the biggest I've seen though.
2400 2011-07-18 13:28:46 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: too big to fail? what, satoshi gives it a fee bailout or something?
2401 2011-07-18 13:29:01 <gmaxwell> hah that was unclearly stated.
2402 2011-07-18 13:29:12 Joric has joined
2403 2011-07-18 13:29:37 <gmaxwell>                 if (nBytes >= MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5)
2404 2011-07-18 13:29:37 <gmaxwell>                     return false;
2405 2011-07-18 13:29:44 <gmaxwell> yea, that wouldn't be the cause.
2406 2011-07-18 13:30:19 <gmaxwell> Must be a bug with too many inputs in SelectCoins
2407 2011-07-18 13:34:06 <doublec> MagicalTux: yes, that looks the same as the namecoin transactions I manage to get when I reduce the amount down after the 'create failed' error
2408 2011-07-18 13:34:51 <MagicalTux> doublec: maybe the bitcoin client could try to be more intelligent :p
2409 2011-07-18 13:35:00 anarchyx has quit ()
2410 2011-07-18 13:36:59 anarchyx has joined
2411 2011-07-18 13:37:09 <lianj> damn, missed the short python hatred
2412 2011-07-18 13:37:09 karnac has joined
2413 2011-07-18 13:37:11 anarchyx has quit (Changing host)
2414 2011-07-18 13:37:11 anarchyx has joined
2415 2011-07-18 13:37:57 <upb> notepad++ != ide
2416 2011-07-18 13:38:56 <cuddlefish> emacs = ide
2417 2011-07-18 13:39:10 <upb> emacs = os
2418 2011-07-18 13:39:17 <cuddlefish> emacs = ide
2419 2011-07-18 13:39:18 <WakiMiko> ed
2420 2011-07-18 13:39:24 <WakiMiko> is the standard editor
2421 2011-07-18 13:39:27 <diki> i remember that in namecoin's source there were some bitcoin words left
2422 2011-07-18 13:39:36 <cuddlefish> emacs = ide
2423 2011-07-18 13:39:38 <cuddlefish>        ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
2424 2011-07-18 13:39:45 <cuddlefish> emacs == ide
2425 2011-07-18 13:39:48 <diki> why didnt the person just do a Search&Replace bitcoin to namecoin
2426 2011-07-18 13:39:50 <upb> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/pull/1/files
2427 2011-07-18 13:39:53 <upb> ^- fixed that stuff
2428 2011-07-18 13:39:55 <WakiMiko> valid assignment
2429 2011-07-18 13:40:05 <cuddlefish> WakiMiko: not in Python
2430 2011-07-18 13:40:20 <WakiMiko> especially in python, just not in an if statement
2431 2011-07-18 13:41:12 <cuddlefish> WakiMiko: not in any expression
2432 2011-07-18 13:41:18 <diki> http://pythonsucks.com/
2433 2011-07-18 13:41:22 <lianj> yay
2434 2011-07-18 13:42:02 <cuddlefish> diki: lolsite
2435 2011-07-18 13:43:09 <lianj> some ruby each day keeps the sadness away
2436 2011-07-18 13:43:26 <cuddlefish> lianj: what's that
2437 2011-07-18 13:43:33 <cuddlefish> oh, right, the Rails scripting language
2438 2011-07-18 13:44:16 <lianj> haha no, that only how many know it
2439 2011-07-18 13:44:49 <ersi> wah wah flame flame wah
2440 2011-07-18 13:44:53 <lianj> yummy
2441 2011-07-18 13:45:22 <upb> hahahahha rails scripting ^_^
2442 2011-07-18 13:45:29 <upb> nice diss
2443 2011-07-18 13:46:37 TheZimm has joined
2444 2011-07-18 13:46:40 TheZimm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2445 2011-07-18 13:46:50 <cuddlefish> upb: php is a nice template language too
2446 2011-07-18 13:46:53 Mad7Scientist has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2447 2011-07-18 13:47:28 cut has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2448 2011-07-18 13:48:12 b4epoche has joined
2449 2011-07-18 13:48:26 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2450 2011-07-18 13:48:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136880 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 207 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 6 hours, 45 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1679161.57681570
2451 2011-07-18 13:48:37 <diki> 30 hours left
2452 2011-07-18 13:48:37 <cuddlefish> also: python's magic methods are to die for
2453 2011-07-18 13:50:00 <cuddlefish> particularly __call__
2454 2011-07-18 13:50:11 <upb> cuddlefish: yep
2455 2011-07-18 13:50:31 <upb> i've found that its rather good to use just php for templates
2456 2011-07-18 13:50:38 glassresistor has joined
2457 2011-07-18 13:50:47 <upb> instead of smarty etc. if you can constrain yourself :)
2458 2011-07-18 13:56:15 <cuddlefish> check this out
2459 2011-07-18 13:56:23 <cuddlefish> class Noms():
2460 2011-07-18 13:56:29 <cuddlefish>     def __call__(self, nom):
2461 2011-07-18 13:56:34 <cuddlefish>         setattr(self, nom.__class__.__name__, nom)
2462 2011-07-18 13:56:46 <cuddlefish> fun to stick things in
2463 2011-07-18 13:57:04 <cuddlefish> k = Noms()
2464 2011-07-18 13:58:04 * lianj __giggles__
2465 2011-07-18 13:59:38 <cuddlefish> I mean
2466 2011-07-18 13:59:48 <cuddlefish> in 15 LOC you can write a State() class
2467 2011-07-18 13:59:56 <cuddlefish> that you can stick things into
2468 2011-07-18 13:59:59 <cuddlefish> stop the interpreter
2469 2011-07-18 14:00:03 <cuddlefish> and bring them out again unharmed
2470 2011-07-18 14:00:11 <cuddlefish> things = anything
2471 2011-07-18 14:00:51 cut has joined
2472 2011-07-18 14:04:55 eianpsego has quit ()
2473 2011-07-18 14:10:13 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
2474 2011-07-18 14:10:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136883 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 204 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 6 hours, 29 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1677079.27620610
2475 2011-07-18 14:14:08 b4epoche_ has joined
2476 2011-07-18 14:14:34 MetaV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2477 2011-07-18 14:15:38 MetaV has joined
2478 2011-07-18 14:16:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: congrats on the race, btw.
2479 2011-07-18 14:18:04 <upb> interesting that most of you dont have pictures in github
2480 2011-07-18 14:18:14 cut has quit (Quit: leaving)
2481 2011-07-18 14:18:14 <upb> added my photo there https://github.com/AbrahamJewowich
2482 2011-07-18 14:18:26 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2483 2011-07-18 14:18:38 Gonzago has joined
2484 2011-07-18 14:19:09 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2485 2011-07-18 14:19:12 <diki> so...when will there be added more options to the gui?
2486 2011-07-18 14:19:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thanks, in about 20 secs Im gonna post a new race that shouldnt be too hard to solve a nonstandard tx... :)
2487 2011-07-18 14:19:24 <diki> say a...datadir option
2488 2011-07-18 14:20:09 <diki> which when we specify, you restart the threads that check for transactions in the wallet, display a flashy screen saying loading and load the specified datadir
2489 2011-07-18 14:20:20 <diki> WITHOUT restarting bitcoin
2490 2011-07-18 14:20:26 cut has joined
2491 2011-07-18 14:24:39 <ersi> diki: Submit a pull request and I'm sure it'll be considered for inclusion
2492 2011-07-18 14:25:24 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2493 2011-07-18 14:27:52 <gmaxwell> "I had to revert back to the old 3.23 code today. The preview patch + 3.24 locked up the system, used up all available sockets after about 8-10hrs, twice. I had to kill -9 to get the process to end.  Possibly erroring when 2nd block is found." < interesting
2494 2011-07-18 14:28:29 <BlueMatt> that is joelkatz's patch
2495 2011-07-18 14:28:50 <gmaxwell> oh. dur.
2496 2011-07-18 14:28:56 <b4epoche> wow, I guess the networking guys at the university had an interesting Friday evening...
2497 2011-07-18 14:29:08 <BlueMatt> why do you say that?
2498 2011-07-18 14:29:23 <b4epoche> I guess Mpower was able to take down the entire U for about 30 minutes
2499 2011-07-18 14:29:43 <BlueMatt> damn, that guy really has nothing better to do...that is just sad
2500 2011-07-18 14:30:05 <b4epoche> I know...  at least the people here had a sense of humor about it
2501 2011-07-18 14:30:16 <BlueMatt> well thats good
2502 2011-07-18 14:30:35 <b4epoche> and I was told not to piss off people with botnets again ;-)
2503 2011-07-18 14:30:45 <BlueMatt> lol yea
2504 2011-07-18 14:30:48 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: How was it know you were related to it?
2505 2011-07-18 14:30:49 <upb> yeah better bend down and apologize
2506 2011-07-18 14:31:05 <b4epoche> apparently that guy has some serious fire power
2507 2011-07-18 14:31:21 <BlueMatt> no shit
2508 2011-07-18 14:31:37 <gmaxwell> A botnet herder caused an apartment complex I lived in to upgrade… the network there was always slow, but after it was down for two days due to a DDOS they installed a much larger link a week or so later.
2509 2011-07-18 14:31:43 <upb> i hope they reported all his bots to some cert
2510 2011-07-18 14:31:59 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2511 2011-07-18 14:32:02 <b4epoche> yea, they're analyzing all the data now
2512 2011-07-18 14:32:20 <b4epoche> mostly from Ukraine
2513 2011-07-18 14:32:29 <b4epoche> no surprise
2514 2011-07-18 14:32:31 <gmaxwell> Another bug for sipa  importprivkey 5KEYIALREADHEAVE foox gives 'error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error adding key to wallet"}' which is kinda vague but fine
2515 2011-07-18 14:32:38 <gmaxwell> bit it also moves that key into account foox
2516 2011-07-18 14:32:47 <gmaxwell> which is a bit surprising, since it errored out.
2517 2011-07-18 14:33:02 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: if you could get a list of them that would be great.
2518 2011-07-18 14:33:18 <BlueMatt> whats luke's minfee for nonstd txes?
2519 2011-07-18 14:33:19 <b4epoche> so, folks over in #freenode keep telling me that a cloak isn't a solution.
2520 2011-07-18 14:33:25 <cjdelisle> lol freenode still won't cloak you, not hiding users because they don't want their ircd's attacked... congradulations, you're efnet.
2521 2011-07-18 14:33:26 <gmaxwell> I'd like to compare them to the nodes in russian and ukraine which were agressively connecting to my bitcoin.
2522 2011-07-18 14:33:43 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  I probably could.  But what would you like me to do with it?
2523 2011-07-18 14:34:11 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: Ive found it works best if you dont tell them why, just join and say can I get a cloak every 20 minutes until someone does it
2524 2011-07-18 14:34:49 mmoya has joined
2525 2011-07-18 14:35:00 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2526 2011-07-18 14:35:04 unclemantis has joined
2527 2011-07-18 14:35:09 <upb> b4epoche: yeah they just dont want to give you it
2528 2011-07-18 14:35:15 wardearia has joined
2529 2011-07-18 14:35:16 <upb> since then those guys would attack freenode servers
2530 2011-07-18 14:35:17 <b4epoche> oh, I didn't know it was so random with getting a cloak...  but I've been told by a few ops that it doesn't really hide ip addr
2531 2011-07-18 14:35:31 <BlueMatt> well it doesnt always
2532 2011-07-18 14:35:35 <cuddlefish> b4epoche: you do need to disable DCC and such
2533 2011-07-18 14:35:38 <cuddlefish> and not click links
2534 2011-07-18 14:35:54 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: but it does help a ton, most people cant see it...
2535 2011-07-18 14:35:55 <cjdelisle> and if someone tells the oper ip addr or it's you...
2536 2011-07-18 14:35:58 <b4epoche> yea, I certainly don't click links ;-)
2537 2011-07-18 14:36:09 karnac has joined
2538 2011-07-18 14:36:15 <b4epoche> dcc?
2539 2011-07-18 14:36:15 <BlueMatt> anyway, just go to #freenode and keep asking until they give it to you :)
2540 2011-07-18 14:36:17 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2541 2011-07-18 14:36:19 <MrSam> hmm
2542 2011-07-18 14:36:28 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  will do
2543 2011-07-18 14:36:32 <MrSam> http://root.oinks.be/patch_bitcoind.diff
2544 2011-07-18 14:36:49 <MrSam> well
2545 2011-07-18 14:36:52 <MrSam> atleast one did
2546 2011-07-18 14:36:53 <MrSam> 82.146.101.162 - - [18/Jul/2011:16:33:11 +0200] "GET /patch_bitcoind.diff HTTP/1.1" 404 455 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0.1) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/5.0.1"
2547 2011-07-18 14:36:57 <MrSam> :P
2548 2011-07-18 14:38:48 <vegard> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : d484e31589 mapTransactions prev not found c8cf155147
2549 2011-07-18 14:38:52 <vegard> I get lots of these in the log
2550 2011-07-18 14:39:11 <vegard> oh, this just means the previous block wasn't downloaded yet?
2551 2011-07-18 14:39:11 <gim> that's cause you haven't downloaded enough blocks yet
2552 2011-07-18 14:39:18 <vegard> right, ok, thanks
2553 2011-07-18 14:39:24 unclemantis has quit (Client Quit)
2554 2011-07-18 14:39:40 upb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2555 2011-07-18 14:40:06 upb has joined
2556 2011-07-18 14:40:08 <xelister> b4epoche: cloak does not really hide ip
2557 2011-07-18 14:40:13 <xelister> b4epoche: use tor and sasl
2558 2011-07-18 14:40:19 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: didja announce that non-standard transaction?
2559 2011-07-18 14:40:43 <b4epoche> got tor setup but having trouble with the sasl part.
2560 2011-07-18 14:40:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not yet, I just need to figure out what ip luke-jr moved his node to so I can get it to a pool that can confirm it and Ill post its hash
2561 2011-07-18 14:41:06 <b4epoche> anyone got suggestions for a good client with sasl for OSX?
2562 2011-07-18 14:41:13 <cuddlefish> irssi?
2563 2011-07-18 14:41:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what ip should one peer with to get a nonstd tx to go to eligius?
2564 2011-07-18 14:41:33 freakazoid has joined
2565 2011-07-18 14:42:33 Krayon has joined
2566 2011-07-18 14:43:20 <Krayon> MagicalTux: FYI that edit you did on the supplier pages regarding "KalyHost"... there's still a few more linking to the review you deleted.
2567 2011-07-18 14:43:47 <Krayon> That is, the Wiki "Trade" page
2568 2011-07-18 14:43:49 <MagicalTux> Krayon: oh, there is? how many places were vandalized?
2569 2011-07-18 14:43:57 <MagicalTux> let me check
2570 2011-07-18 14:44:06 <Krayon> 4 I think.  Kalyhost occurs in more than one section
2571 2011-07-18 14:44:06 <MagicalTux> oh indeed
2572 2011-07-18 14:44:32 <Krayon> I don't feel comfortable changing it myself but figured you'd want to know.
2573 2011-07-18 14:44:38 p0s has joined
2574 2011-07-18 14:45:20 Tiraspol has joined
2575 2011-07-18 14:45:23 <MagicalTux> I feel confortable because I've never had a single email from that guy, only vague comments on facebook (which is not especially the best place for customer support)
2576 2011-07-18 14:46:34 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2577 2011-07-18 14:46:41 <upb> was it regarding to 'kalyhost' scamming customers ?:P
2578 2011-07-18 14:46:44 ar4s has joined
2579 2011-07-18 14:46:55 <MagicalTux> upb: somehow
2580 2011-07-18 14:47:10 <upb> yeah ive read something like this too few years aog
2581 2011-07-18 14:47:12 <upb> ago
2582 2011-07-18 14:47:23 <upb> wonder who those guys are
2583 2011-07-18 14:47:35 <MagicalTux> Oo ?
2584 2011-07-18 14:47:37 <MagicalTux> years?
2585 2011-07-18 14:48:02 <upb> ya i believe so wasnt it some french isp
2586 2011-07-18 14:48:38 <MagicalTux> kalyhost was created ~1 year and half ago
2587 2011-07-18 14:49:15 <upb> maybe so. how do you know so exactly ?
2588 2011-07-18 14:49:44 <MagicalTux> I have created KalyHost
2589 2011-07-18 14:49:51 <upb> OH
2590 2011-07-18 14:49:54 <upb> wow
2591 2011-07-18 14:49:56 <upb> ok
2592 2011-07-18 14:50:28 <MagicalTux> and I can tell the vps system is 100% automated
2593 2011-07-18 14:50:38 <MagicalTux> and works
2594 2011-07-18 14:50:52 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: does wikibot store the list of nodes it removed somewhere?
2595 2011-07-18 14:50:56 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2596 2011-07-18 14:50:56 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
2597 2011-07-18 14:50:57 <BlueMatt> or are they gone until readded?
2598 2011-07-18 14:51:07 <MagicalTux> BlueMatt: it's all gone (except in the page history)
2599 2011-07-18 14:51:11 * prof7bit slowly proceeding: http://code.google.com/p/fpbitcoin/source/list
2600 2011-07-18 14:51:18 copumpkin has joined
2601 2011-07-18 14:51:22 <MagicalTux> for some reason it cannot connect, I suspect something has changed in the way bitcoin works
2602 2011-07-18 14:51:31 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: shouldnt it readd nodes, because most of the ones that get removed are removed because its probably full to max connections?
2603 2011-07-18 14:51:46 <BlueMatt> no, just the majority of nodes get their full connections quick
2604 2011-07-18 14:51:53 <MagicalTux> oh
2605 2011-07-18 14:51:55 upb has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2606 2011-07-18 14:52:00 <MagicalTux> that's the reason why they disconnect instantly ?
2607 2011-07-18 14:52:00 upb has joined
2608 2011-07-18 14:52:01 b3epoche has joined
2609 2011-07-18 14:52:05 <BlueMatt> think so
2610 2011-07-18 14:52:12 <MagicalTux> that's misleading
2611 2011-07-18 14:52:13 <BlueMatt> dont your nodes get full within like 10 minutes?
2612 2011-07-18 14:52:25 <MagicalTux> let me patch my fallback nodes to increase the max then
2613 2011-07-18 14:52:39 upb has quit (Client Quit)
2614 2011-07-18 14:52:45 <BlueMatt> should just need -maxconnections
2615 2011-07-18 14:52:51 <MagicalTux> anyway a fallback node not accepting connections is not great
2616 2011-07-18 14:52:56 <BlueMatt> yep
2617 2011-07-18 14:53:05 <BlueMatt> ;;seen luke-jr
2618 2011-07-18 14:53:05 <gribble> luke-jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 hours, 33 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <luke-jr> night
2619 2011-07-18 14:53:12 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2620 2011-07-18 14:53:18 b4epoche has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2621 2011-07-18 14:53:47 b3epoche is now known as b4epoche
2622 2011-07-18 14:53:47 cuddlefish has joined
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2627 2011-07-18 15:00:47 cut has joined
2628 2011-07-18 15:01:31 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Uh, in here, derp
2629 2011-07-18 15:02:45 viggi has quit (Quit: leaving)
2630 2011-07-18 15:02:54 Marf has joined
2631 2011-07-18 15:03:00 upb has joined
2632 2011-07-18 15:03:21 StevePerk has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2633 2011-07-18 15:03:38 <b4epoche> any way you can get irssi to not show 'joining' and 'leaving' messages?
2634 2011-07-18 15:03:54 <cuddlefish> b4epoche: yep
2635 2011-07-18 15:03:58 <cuddlefish> for a specific user even
2636 2011-07-18 15:04:05 <cuddlefish> /ignore midnightmagic QUITS JOINS
2637 2011-07-18 15:04:28 <cuddlefish> you can also /ignore midnightmagic QUITS JOINS PARTS but he's not part-spamming
2638 2011-07-18 15:04:30 WakiMiko_ has joined
2639 2011-07-18 15:04:31 <kinlo> the midnightmagic guy is already steadily online
2640 2011-07-18 15:04:33 <WakiMiko_> /ignore <channel> JOINS
2641 2011-07-18 15:04:42 <cuddlefish> WakiMiko_: ... whoa
2642 2011-07-18 15:04:45 <cuddlefish> time machine?
2643 2011-07-18 15:04:46 <kinlo> cuddlefish: you would have known that if you didn't ignore it :p
2644 2011-07-18 15:04:47 <b4epoche> does it accept wildcards?
2645 2011-07-18 15:04:56 <WakiMiko_> i dunno i disconnected
2646 2011-07-18 15:04:57 <cuddlefish> b4epoche: i believe there's a -regex switch
2647 2011-07-18 15:05:01 <cuddlefish> b4epoche: /help ignore
2648 2011-07-18 15:05:03 <WakiMiko_> /help ignore
2649 2011-07-18 15:05:06 <WakiMiko_> cuddlefish: damnit
2650 2011-07-18 15:05:08 <b4epoche> thanks
2651 2011-07-18 15:05:29 <cuddlefish> Grr, stop encrypting my wallet, kthxby
2652 2011-07-18 15:05:31 wasabi2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2653 2011-07-18 15:05:42 <kinlo> cuddlefish:  ? ;)
2654 2011-07-18 15:05:56 <cuddlefish> OpenSSL doesn't like the cleartext keys :P
2655 2011-07-18 15:05:58 WakiMiko has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2656 2011-07-18 15:06:00 <kinlo> wasn't encrypting the wallet so high on all devvers priority list? :)
2657 2011-07-18 15:06:17 <kinlo> btw, an encrypted wallet, does it only encryp the private key or does it encrypt all keys?
2658 2011-07-18 15:06:28 <cuddlefish> uh, what else is there to encrypt
2659 2011-07-18 15:06:34 <cuddlefish> public keys?
2660 2011-07-18 15:06:42 <cuddlefish> probably not
2661 2011-07-18 15:06:43 <kinlo> because I'd like to mine unattended, which requires fresh keys
2662 2011-07-18 15:06:43 <lfm> kinlo: no, i was high on some users list
2663 2011-07-18 15:06:59 <cuddlefish> kinlo: ... it does? why?
2664 2011-07-18 15:07:13 <gmaxwell> Because each generation goes to a new key.
2665 2011-07-18 15:07:18 <cuddlefish> oh, fun
2666 2011-07-18 15:07:20 <kinlo> cuddlefish: people are stupid, so I wouldn't be surprised if they encrypted the entire wallet
2667 2011-07-18 15:07:24 <gmaxwell> Mining is probably undertested for encrypted wallet.
2668 2011-07-18 15:07:30 <b4epoche> thanks all, that's much nicer
2669 2011-07-18 15:07:31 <kinlo> and yes, every generation needs a new wallet
2670 2011-07-18 15:07:34 <kinlo> euh
2671 2011-07-18 15:07:35 <kinlo> key
2672 2011-07-18 15:07:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: why do you say that?
2673 2011-07-18 15:07:42 <gmaxwell> kinlo: no, it only encrypts the private keys. There is a good reason to encrypt all of it— but it doesn't outweigh the costs.
2674 2011-07-18 15:07:49 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: oh, I had a 'type 2 deterministic wallet' idea
2675 2011-07-18 15:08:19 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: store frontends can keep master pubkey, simply set the 'seed' to the order ID
2676 2011-07-18 15:08:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't recall anyone saying they tested it. I didn't. Well, I didn't successfully mine a block, and didn't try the cornercase when it mines with a dry pool.
2677 2011-07-18 15:08:36 <BlueMatt> gavin did
2678 2011-07-18 15:08:37 <kinlo> gmaxwell: dunno, I want to work with my bitcoin app, but not have to use my password
2679 2011-07-18 15:08:41 <kinlo> unless I need to pay
2680 2011-07-18 15:08:42 <BlueMatt> he found a bug, it was fixed (after merge)
2681 2011-07-18 15:08:46 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah good. I missed that.
2682 2011-07-18 15:09:05 fleg has joined
2683 2011-07-18 15:09:26 <kinlo> so generating private keys should be possible, the private part should be encrypted by public/private key algorithm
2684 2011-07-18 15:09:39 <gmaxwell> kinlo: yes, thats the good reason not to. The good reason to do it is because the wallet is full of private data. Some people are going to say "oh, it's encrypted I'll put it someplace public" and then disclose all their transaction/address ownership
2685 2011-07-18 15:09:48 fleg has left ()
2686 2011-07-18 15:10:04 <kinlo> gmaxwell: then 2 levels of encryption should be divised
2687 2011-07-18 15:10:14 <gmaxwell> kinlo: That intentionally was not done, because an attacker could stuff your wallet with keys they control while you aren't looking.
2688 2011-07-18 15:10:15 <kinlo> what's the current state on encryption?
2689 2011-07-18 15:10:29 <lfm> kinlo easy to tell other people to do more work
2690 2011-07-18 15:10:30 alfakini_ has joined
2691 2011-07-18 15:10:36 <gmaxwell> kinlo: It's done.
2692 2011-07-18 15:10:49 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: what algorithm?
2693 2011-07-18 15:11:06 <gmaxwell> In fact, it was done, and then people wined about things and BlueMatt redid half of it again.
2694 2011-07-18 15:11:08 <cuddlefish> watch out for transmorphism
2695 2011-07-18 15:11:17 alfakini_ has left ()
2696 2011-07-18 15:11:26 <lfm> cuddlefish: rot13
2697 2011-07-18 15:11:36 <cuddlefish> lfm: how long are the keys
2698 2011-07-18 15:11:42 <kinlo> finally a reliable encryption algorithm :)
2699 2011-07-18 15:11:49 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: read the find commit.
2700 2011-07-18 15:11:49 <kinlo> please send me my encrypted wallet :p
2701 2011-07-18 15:11:54 NxTitle_ is now known as NxTitle
2702 2011-07-18 15:12:00 <kinlo> euh, *your
2703 2011-07-18 15:12:05 <BlueMatt> no it uses an encryption I made up, rot14, the newest in high-stength encryption technology
2704 2011-07-18 15:12:05 NxTitle has quit (Changing host)
2705 2011-07-18 15:12:05 NxTitle has joined
2706 2011-07-18 15:12:08 <lfm> thats the beuty, any size key can be used, the result is equally secure
2707 2011-07-18 15:12:10 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: i can't find the commit :P
2708 2011-07-18 15:13:16 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/0bad8e423754cae582ceb99389709953f56947bc
2709 2011-07-18 15:13:34 bender32 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2710 2011-07-18 15:13:45 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: relay.eligius.st
2711 2011-07-18 15:13:46 <kinlo> EVP_aes_256_cbc ?
2712 2011-07-18 15:13:49 bender32 has joined
2713 2011-07-18 15:13:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ah, thanks
2714 2011-07-18 15:14:23 <gmaxwell> aww, somewhere the detailed messages about the design were lost.
2715 2011-07-18 15:14:27 <cuddlefish> Ah, AES
2716 2011-07-18 15:14:40 lightcode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2717 2011-07-18 15:14:47 lightcode has joined
2718 2011-07-18 15:14:48 <BlueMatt> EVP_aes_256_cbc aka aes-256-cbc
2719 2011-07-18 15:14:53 <BlueMatt> via openssl's evp library
2720 2011-07-18 15:14:55 <kinlo> aes should be adequate
2721 2011-07-18 15:15:00 <cuddlefish> yeap
2722 2011-07-18 15:15:30 <lfm> lol, glad to have your stamp of approval.
2723 2011-07-18 15:15:41 <kinlo> you're welcome :p
2724 2011-07-18 15:15:52 <upb> how to see what was written there? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Reviews/KalyHost
2725 2011-07-18 15:16:42 TheAncientGoat has joined
2726 2011-07-18 15:16:50 <lfm> kinlo said it should be ok, you can all quit complaining now
2727 2011-07-18 15:16:53 molecular has joined
2728 2011-07-18 15:17:00 <kinlo> :p
2729 2011-07-18 15:17:17 <kinlo> I only said the encryption algorithm was ok :p
2730 2011-07-18 15:17:21 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2731 2011-07-18 15:17:29 <kinlo> anyway, I was just wondering what the current status was
2732 2011-07-18 15:17:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hey, where did the dynamic iteration count stuff go?
2733 2011-07-18 15:17:49 <kinlo> there is not really a mailinglist or something we can subscribe to to follow these kind of subjects, is there?
2734 2011-07-18 15:17:56 <Krayon> MagicalTux: Anyway, just thought I'd let you know. :)
2735 2011-07-18 15:17:59 <kinlo> besides bugging you guys here
2736 2011-07-18 15:18:01 Krayon has left ("/part")
2737 2011-07-18 15:18:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its in a separate commit
2738 2011-07-18 15:18:14 <gmaxwell> ah, it's there. github was just confusing me.
2739 2011-07-18 15:20:53 wasabi2 has joined
2740 2011-07-18 15:21:17 WildSoil has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2741 2011-07-18 15:21:24 dr_win has joined
2742 2011-07-18 15:22:08 <UukGoblin> right... is there an official way to fix and/or more info on the duplicate-getwork bug?
2743 2011-07-18 15:23:02 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: well I pointed you to a patch.
2744 2011-07-18 15:23:19 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2745 2011-07-18 15:23:37 <gmaxwell> Luke's patch could be a bit more agressive in resetting the extranonce though— it could reset it anytime the transactions change too.
2746 2011-07-18 15:23:37 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, yes, thanks for that :-) just asking if there's any more, or if someone rebased it, or recommended it or not
2747 2011-07-18 15:24:06 <gmaxwell> git should be able to apply it cleanly.
2748 2011-07-18 15:24:15 <UukGoblin> as the author said not to use it, pretty much ;-)
2749 2011-07-18 15:24:21 <UukGoblin> yes it does apply cleanly
2750 2011-07-18 15:24:32 <gmaxwell> Where did the Luke say not to use it?
2751 2011-07-18 15:24:34 <UukGoblin> which doesn't necessarily mean it will work on 0.3.24
2752 2011-07-18 15:24:41 bender32 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2753 2011-07-18 15:24:45 <gmaxwell> Did he just say that in the same breath as telling you to use his pool?
2754 2011-07-18 15:24:54 <gmaxwell> :)
2755 2011-07-18 15:24:56 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, well, as a reply to my questions on whether I should use it he said 161209 > luke-jr< UukGoblin: I think it's a good idea to use Eligius :D
2756 2011-07-18 15:25:04 <UukGoblin> yes ;-]
2757 2011-07-18 15:25:04 <gmaxwell> Yea, called it.
2758 2011-07-18 15:25:20 <gmaxwell> No its, fine, it works against current code, nothing near there has changed lately.
2759 2011-07-18 15:25:29 <UukGoblin> ok, great, thanks :-)
2760 2011-07-18 15:26:04 <luke-jr> I didn't say not to use it. :p
2761 2011-07-18 15:26:18 <gmaxwell> Use it, send Luke 1% of your one days expected returns. Because while all other major pools _must_ have known about the issue (otherwise it would look like their users were ripping them off) only Luke bothered to make a public patch. ;)
2762 2011-07-18 15:26:41 <[Tycho]> What bitcoin project is created by kinlo ?
2763 2011-07-18 15:26:51 <kinlo> the one nobody likes :)
2764 2011-07-18 15:27:01 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, well, hence the "pretty much" part ;-)
2765 2011-07-18 15:27:03 <cuddlefish> Woohoo, my sexy, sexy pycoin works
2766 2011-07-18 15:27:10 <cuddlefish> for one, no ugly berkeleyDB
2767 2011-07-18 15:27:12 <UukGoblin> but yeah, you didn't say that directly
2768 2011-07-18 15:27:26 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: you didn't tell me it merged cleanly either :P
2769 2011-07-18 15:27:30 <cuddlefish> datadir/wallet/1FitbRBrbryJ8bqyf1Kem61MnkoWFBtqY7
2770 2011-07-18 15:27:42 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, I did a bit above
2771 2011-07-18 15:27:47 <[Tycho]> kinlo, which exactly ?
2772 2011-07-18 15:27:53 <BlueMatt> cuddlefish: using the filesystem like that...ugly ugly ugly
2773 2011-07-18 15:28:00 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: why?
2774 2011-07-18 15:28:07 <cuddlefish> it's sort of for this stuff
2775 2011-07-18 15:28:08 upb has quit (Changing host)
2776 2011-07-18 15:28:08 upb has joined
2777 2011-07-18 15:28:11 <UukGoblin> I mean a while above
2778 2011-07-18 15:28:12 <BlueMatt> because you are creating 1000 files
2779 2011-07-18 15:28:31 <lfm> some filesystems are good for that stuff
2780 2011-07-18 15:28:38 <UukGoblin> 142827< UukGoblin> right... I've auto-rebased luke-jr's getwork_dedupe onto v0.3
2781 2011-07-18 15:28:41 <UukGoblin> .24... the file locations have changed between 0.3.21 (where original luke's ded
2782 2011-07-18 15:28:44 <UukGoblin> upe is) and 0.3.24, but git seems to have handled it
2783 2011-07-18 15:28:45 <UukGoblin> bah
2784 2011-07-18 15:28:52 <cuddlefish> I have no intention of making this work on anything but Linux, BTW
2785 2011-07-18 15:29:02 <UukGoblin> sorry for the paste, my paste_join_multiline has just failed
2786 2011-07-18 15:29:24 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2787 2011-07-18 15:29:28 <BlueMatt> cuddlefish: so? its really ugly to create your own db using the fs, that is even slower than bdb ever will be
2788 2011-07-18 15:29:40 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: Suppose so, I'll go to my better method
2789 2011-07-18 15:29:48 <UukGoblin> I wish I had a test suite for my rig...
2790 2011-07-18 15:30:09 <vegard> cuddlefish++
2791 2011-07-18 15:30:49 <cuddlefish> putting it all in a .zip
2792 2011-07-18 15:30:54 <luke-jr> …
2793 2011-07-18 15:31:01 <cuddlefish> so you can still browse it with fileroller or something
2794 2011-07-18 15:31:53 Teslah has joined
2795 2011-07-18 15:32:31 <cuddlefish> the problem I have with that, though, is it's still possible to kill the entire wallet with a bad dd or something
2796 2011-07-18 15:32:38 <cuddlefish> hmm.
2797 2011-07-18 15:33:13 <JFK911> dd users deserve what they get
2798 2011-07-18 15:33:28 <cuddlefish> Yeah, I guess I'll use a .tgz for the wallet
2799 2011-07-18 15:33:47 <cuddlefish> importing private keys can be done with WinZip :P
2800 2011-07-18 15:34:00 <cuddlefish> well, if winzip supports that
2801 2011-07-18 15:34:03 <cuddlefish> /think/ it does
2802 2011-07-18 15:34:12 <luke-jr> you can't do random access of .tgz
2803 2011-07-18 15:34:28 <UukGoblin> not even of .tar I don't think
2804 2011-07-18 15:34:38 <cuddlefish> luke-jr: hmmm.
2805 2011-07-18 15:35:46 <luke-jr> cuddlefish: bdb is the best solution
2806 2011-07-18 15:36:01 molecular has joined
2807 2011-07-18 15:37:04 <UukGoblin> you could make a fuse filesystem that'll expose a wallet in such a way
2808 2011-07-18 15:37:08 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2809 2011-07-18 15:37:08 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2810 2011-07-18 15:37:13 <UukGoblin> that'd be neat imho
2811 2011-07-18 15:37:36 <cuddlefish> Okay, I'm going with a good ol' .zip
2812 2011-07-18 15:37:38 <gmaxwell> db_dump is good enough for everyone!
2813 2011-07-18 15:38:34 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2814 2011-07-18 15:39:23 ar4s has quit (Quit: zZzZZz)
2815 2011-07-18 15:39:52 Lexa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2816 2011-07-18 15:40:14 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2817 2011-07-18 15:41:11 <justmoon> o_O - I just saved 100$ through... procrastination
2818 2011-07-18 15:41:31 <justmoon> was gonna order a pc this morning, got distracted - 8 hours later refresh page, price went down 100$
2819 2011-07-18 15:42:42 <Joric> just stumbled upon very new but promising python client, check it out
2820 2011-07-18 15:43:16 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/brutus
2821 2011-07-18 15:43:27 <nanotube> justmoon: haha nice
2822 2011-07-18 15:43:44 <Joric> was started less than a month ago but supports block downloading/money transactions already
2823 2011-07-18 15:43:58 <cuddlefish> Joric: god damn it
2824 2011-07-18 15:44:01 <Joric> i've forked it because an original one won't work with testnet
2825 2011-07-18 15:44:59 <Joric> added a ton of lame bugfixes already :)
2826 2011-07-18 15:45:09 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2827 2011-07-18 15:45:12 <MrSam> hmm
2828 2011-07-18 15:45:21 <MrSam> anyone here using the innodb plugin instead of buildin ?
2829 2011-07-18 15:46:01 <upb> why would you use innodb, it isnt webscale
2830 2011-07-18 15:46:33 <MrSam> alternative ? :)
2831 2011-07-18 15:46:49 <cuddlefish> lolinnodb
2832 2011-07-18 15:47:12 <upb> mongodb, myisam, devnulldb
2833 2011-07-18 15:47:18 <upb> lots of webscale stuff around
2834 2011-07-18 15:47:21 <MrSam> mongo is not quite the same
2835 2011-07-18 15:47:29 <gmaxwell> hahah
2836 2011-07-18 15:47:41 <MrSam> and myisam and 1000 inserts / second doesn't work that good
2837 2011-07-18 15:47:50 <Joric> i'd use sqlite3 locally
2838 2011-07-18 15:47:56 <MrSam> nah to slow
2839 2011-07-18 15:48:11 <gmaxwell> I gather from upb: webscale == very much not ACID, as except dipping your data in acid... thats webscale. ;)
2840 2011-07-18 15:48:26 <upb> exactly
2841 2011-07-18 15:48:43 <upb> ACID introduces unwebscale slowness
2842 2011-07-18 15:49:24 darkskiez has joined
2843 2011-07-18 15:50:44 <BlueMatt> wow that is the most uninformed statement Ive ever heard
2844 2011-07-18 15:51:05 <upb> ????
2845 2011-07-18 15:51:22 <BlueMatt> ACID is slower than non-ACID that is true, but that doesnt mean its not able to scale up to be able to handle huge volume
2846 2011-07-18 15:51:24 molecular has joined
2847 2011-07-18 15:51:33 <BlueMatt> yes it might not scale as well, but that doesnt mean it cant sca
2848 2011-07-18 15:51:33 <BlueMatt> le
2849 2011-07-18 15:51:42 <BlueMatt> also, anyone who uses the word webscale is an idiot
2850 2011-07-18 15:51:57 <upb> yes maybe but why do you even need ACID properties for bitcoin ?
2851 2011-07-18 15:51:59 <upb> you dont
2852 2011-07-18 15:52:03 <upb> so its unnecessary cruft
2853 2011-07-18 15:52:05 <BlueMatt> yes you fucking do
2854 2011-07-18 15:52:08 <upb> no you dont
2855 2011-07-18 15:52:08 <BlueMatt> you mean to write keys
2856 2011-07-18 15:52:11 <BlueMatt> yes you do
2857 2011-07-18 15:52:14 <BlueMatt> to write addr.dat no
2858 2011-07-18 15:52:14 <upb> mtgox does fine with myisam
2859 2011-07-18 15:52:18 <BlueMatt> to write blocks, maybe
2860 2011-07-18 15:52:21 <upb> and its processing millions $$ day
2861 2011-07-18 15:52:34 <BlueMatt> A FINANCIAL INSTITUTION NOT USING A SOLID ACID DB IS FUCKING STUPID
2862 2011-07-18 15:52:43 <BlueMatt> and if you think otherwise, you need to crawl in a hole and die
2863 2011-07-18 15:52:45 <upb> NO IT IS SUFFICIENTLY FAST AND WEBSCALE
2864 2011-07-18 15:52:46 * gmaxwell quietly goes to pull all funds out of mtgox (again)
2865 2011-07-18 15:53:05 * upb goes home
2866 2011-07-18 15:53:34 <cuddlefish> woo, my keystore is working well
2867 2011-07-18 15:53:47 <cuddlefish> BlueMatt: it's web scale
2868 2011-07-18 15:53:48 <cuddlefish> like
2869 2011-07-18 15:53:49 <cuddlefish> the scale
2870 2011-07-18 15:53:51 <cuddlefish> of the web
2871 2011-07-18 15:53:52 <cuddlefish> dude
2872 2011-07-18 15:54:11 <BlueMatt> anyone who uses the word "webscale" and thinks it has any meaning is just being thick and following the noSQL hype
2873 2011-07-18 15:54:22 Orxenhorf has joined
2874 2011-07-18 15:54:24 <BlueMatt> also, dont get me started on the uselessness of the word nosql
2875 2011-07-18 15:55:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Have you heard about The Cloud yet?
2876 2011-07-18 15:55:39 <FellowTraveler> Open-Transactions binaries. You still have to download the code, but you don't have to compile it (OT API for Java, Ubuntu 32bit x86, Mac x64, Windows 32bit x86
2877 2011-07-18 15:55:41 <gmaxwell> It's powered by XML and LDAP.
2878 2011-07-18 15:55:44 <FellowTraveler> https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/downloads
2879 2011-07-18 15:55:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ...
2880 2011-07-18 15:57:23 <cuddlefish> http://pastebin.com/fu0UjVZy
2881 2011-07-18 15:57:39 sytse has joined
2882 2011-07-18 15:57:41 <cuddlefish> i'm going to put these in my signature
2883 2011-07-18 15:57:44 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: thats not all of them.
2884 2011-07-18 15:58:08 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2885 2011-07-18 15:58:29 <cuddlefish> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27147813/wallet.zip here you gu
2886 2011-07-18 15:58:33 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
2887 2011-07-18 15:58:53 molecular has joined
2888 2011-07-18 15:58:58 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2889 2011-07-18 15:59:34 <gmaxwell> heh. Its fun running a node with a bypassed IsMine(). Collect alllll the transactions!
2890 2011-07-18 16:00:00 <BlueMatt> lol, too bad you cant spend them
2891 2011-07-18 16:00:08 <gmaxwell>     "balance" : 4387.51749317,
2892 2011-07-18 16:00:11 <gmaxwell> I'm rich!
2893 2011-07-18 16:00:14 <gmaxwell> awww.
2894 2011-07-18 16:01:20 rapi has joined
2895 2011-07-18 16:01:27 <rapi> hi
2896 2011-07-18 16:02:21 <rapi> i'm searching a user/dev who already setup and use intersango, plz pm me
2897 2011-07-18 16:02:41 <BlueMatt> rapi: go to #britcoin
2898 2011-07-18 16:03:00 <rapi> thy
2899 2011-07-18 16:03:13 <cuddlefish> 781 addresses
2900 2011-07-18 16:03:14 <cuddlefish> ALL MINE
2901 2011-07-18 16:03:31 <cuddlefish> and yours
2902 2011-07-18 16:03:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: surely you'd have more than that
2903 2011-07-18 16:03:58 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2904 2011-07-18 16:04:16 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: that was only after running it for a few minutes. (also have the confirmation checks removed)
2905 2011-07-18 16:04:19 rapi has left ()
2906 2011-07-18 16:04:20 luke-jr has joined
2907 2011-07-18 16:04:28 <cuddlefish> luke-jr: i assume it'd just do ismine on new TXs
2908 2011-07-18 16:05:59 <luke-jr> cuddlefish: I assume he did -rescan :P
2909 2011-07-18 16:06:24 <gmaxwell> yea. no.
2910 2011-07-18 16:07:00 <gmaxwell> I wanted to make sure that bluemat's price transaction ends up in a wallet if I hear it on the network.
2911 2011-07-18 16:07:22 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2912 2011-07-18 16:07:23 <Joric> ain't it cool https://github.com/joric/brutus/blob/master/ecdsa_ssl.py ? that's how one should do imports :)
2913 2011-07-18 16:07:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136897 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 190 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 11 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1678902.60877797
2914 2011-07-18 16:07:35 zapnap has joined
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2917 2011-07-18 16:09:32 <BlueMatt> for anyone who has some free time and wants to get 1.5BTC: http://pastebin.com/VKi7psby :)
2918 2011-07-18 16:09:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ^
2919 2011-07-18 16:10:21 <BlueMatt> that would be a anyone-spendable transaction :)
2920 2011-07-18 16:10:49 <gmaxwell> oh hmph. I don't even have to have seen that to spend it.
2921 2011-07-18 16:10:52 <Joric> how is it even possible
2922 2011-07-18 16:10:57 <cuddlefish> Joric: script
2923 2011-07-18 16:11:07 <BlueMatt> have fun :)
2924 2011-07-18 16:11:41 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2925 2011-07-18 16:12:53 molecular has joined
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2930 2011-07-18 16:16:24 Titeuf_87 has joined
2931 2011-07-18 16:19:02 <AlonzoTG> om
2932 2011-07-18 16:19:09 Orxenhorf has left ()
2933 2011-07-18 16:19:18 <BlueMatt> anyone got the first checkpoint yet?
2934 2011-07-18 16:20:04 redhatzero has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2935 2011-07-18 16:20:22 <Joric> [('OP_PUSH', '24541444d452070726f7669646564206279207672732f6c616d62'), ('OP_PUSH', '461')]
2936 2011-07-18 16:20:43 <gim> BlueMatt:  you mean building a chain from scratch with equivalent difficulty?
2937 2011-07-18 16:20:56 <BlueMatt> gim: no I mean on the above posted transaction
2938 2011-07-18 16:21:01 <BlueMatt> scavenger huntish
2939 2011-07-18 16:21:06 <gim> ah sry
2940 2011-07-18 16:21:30 <BlueMatt> Joric: ???
2941 2011-07-18 16:23:17 <Joric> i don't know i just tried to parse 524541444d452070726f7669646564206279207672732f6c616d626461
2942 2011-07-18 16:24:46 nhodges has joined
2943 2011-07-18 16:25:28 <vegard> the script is already decoded
2944 2011-07-18 16:25:43 <diki> how exactly does on start a new chain?
2945 2011-07-18 16:25:50 <diki> s/on/one
2946 2011-07-18 16:26:00 <BlueMatt> vegard: but you have to figure out the scriptPubKey
2947 2011-07-18 16:26:09 <diki> get the client, change port and be done with it?
2948 2011-07-18 16:26:50 Zagitta has joined
2949 2011-07-18 16:27:03 <vegard> diki: if somebody put the "official" client on your network, they would overtake your new chain
2950 2011-07-18 16:27:17 <BlueMatt> you need a different genisis block
2951 2011-07-18 16:27:23 pusle has joined
2952 2011-07-18 16:27:26 <diki> how do you make it then?
2953 2011-07-18 16:27:36 cuqaa has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2954 2011-07-18 16:28:34 AndyBr has joined
2955 2011-07-18 16:28:45 <diki> i mean when you start bitcoin it starts do download the current block chain from "main net"
2956 2011-07-18 16:28:50 <diki> then how do you make your own?
2957 2011-07-18 16:28:55 <diki> s/do/to
2958 2011-07-18 16:29:17 b4epoche has quit (Quit: leaving)
2959 2011-07-18 16:29:50 <vegard> you could modify the client to accept only chains starting at your new genesis block
2960 2011-07-18 16:30:01 b4epoche has joined
2961 2011-07-18 16:30:11 <diki> are they hardcoded or something?
2962 2011-07-18 16:30:11 <vegard> or to accept only chains including your fork point
2963 2011-07-18 16:30:27 TheZimm has joined
2964 2011-07-18 16:30:39 <vegard> well, you have hashGenesisBlock in main.cpp
2965 2011-07-18 16:30:59 alfakini has joined
2966 2011-07-18 16:31:07 <vegard> there are also some checkpoints in CBlock::AcceptBlock()
2967 2011-07-18 16:31:54 alfakini has left ()
2968 2011-07-18 16:32:11 <diki> but if it's hardcoded, does that mean you need to make some small external program to generate you a block(no matter what diff) and then place it in bitcoin and compile?
2969 2011-07-18 16:32:44 <lfm> diki you need to make your own genisis block first of all. then you should modify the port number and some of the other magic id codes to distinguish yourself from regular bitcoin
2970 2011-07-18 16:33:18 <vegard> planning dikicoins? :-P
2971 2011-07-18 16:33:27 <diki> any "PyGenesisBlockGen" out there?
2972 2011-07-18 16:33:44 * b4epoche thinks this is going to be bad
2973 2011-07-18 16:34:35 koleg has joined
2974 2011-07-18 16:35:05 <imsaguy> lol
2975 2011-07-18 16:35:09 dshady has left ()
2976 2011-07-18 16:35:40 <cuddlefish> diki: testnet in a box
2977 2011-07-18 16:36:14 <lfm> testnet already uses a separate genesis block of its own, you should make your own
2978 2011-07-18 16:36:48 paul0 has joined
2979 2011-07-18 16:37:23 luke-jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2980 2011-07-18 16:37:33 <lfm> also probably should change the .bitcoin default datadir name
2981 2011-07-18 16:38:15 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2982 2011-07-18 16:38:32 luke-jr has joined
2983 2011-07-18 16:38:35 WildSoil has joined
2984 2011-07-18 16:38:48 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
2985 2011-07-18 16:38:50 <diki> what would happen if i have a different genesis block, but same port?
2986 2011-07-18 16:38:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136902 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 185 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 3 hours, 32 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1679972.32969477
2987 2011-07-18 16:38:56 Akiron has joined
2988 2011-07-18 16:39:21 luke-jr has joined
2989 2011-07-18 16:39:59 <lfm> diki: you waste time trying to connect to bitcoin nodes.
2990 2011-07-18 16:40:25 <lfm> diki: you also need to change the seed node list in the source
2991 2011-07-18 16:40:47 Ramen has joined
2992 2011-07-18 16:40:56 <lfm> and change the irc channel if you keep irc
2993 2011-07-18 16:40:56 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
2994 2011-07-18 16:40:59 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136902 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 185 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 3 hours, 32 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1679972.32969477
2995 2011-07-18 16:41:27 <Zagitta> Okay since you guys warned me against writing my own work generation code i was wondering if it wouldn't be benifitial to expose the previous block's hash and a list of transactions data with RCP?
2996 2011-07-18 16:41:27 klikklak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2997 2011-07-18 16:41:37 <somuchwin2> is there a way to datamine the blockchain offline? I mean without using a site like blockexplorer.com
2998 2011-07-18 16:41:48 somuchwin2 is now known as somuchwin
2999 2011-07-18 16:41:51 <forrestv> somuchwin2, yes, get them from your local bitcoind
3000 2011-07-18 16:41:56 <lfm> Zagitta: you mean like getwork does?
3001 2011-07-18 16:42:04 Zarutian has joined
3002 2011-07-18 16:42:30 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3003 2011-07-18 16:42:34 <somuchwin> but is there an already developed solution for that?
3004 2011-07-18 16:42:39 <lfm> somuchwin: sure hexdump ~/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat
3005 2011-07-18 16:43:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ?
3006 2011-07-18 16:43:32 <Zagitta> lfm: no, i mean the raw data so people can decide wich transactions they want to in/exclude aswell as optimize the getwork process that currently includes a rcp call for every recieved getwork from miners
3007 2011-07-18 16:43:48 <lfm> somuchwin: ya, you can also look for bitcointools
3008 2011-07-18 16:44:10 klikklak has joined
3009 2011-07-18 16:44:33 <lfm> Zagitta: I think most people just modify the standard bitcoin(d) for that
3010 2011-07-18 16:44:36 AndyBr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3011 2011-07-18 16:45:24 mosimo has joined
3012 2011-07-18 16:46:25 AndyBr has joined
3013 2011-07-18 16:48:03 <Zagitta> lfm: i guess...
3014 2011-07-18 16:48:46 <lfm> Zagitta: the existing pools each seem to have their own solutions, not sure if a standard one would be good or not.
3015 2011-07-18 16:50:19 <Joric> BlueMatt, i think i got it, hang on
3016 2011-07-18 16:50:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: laszlo forwarded me a .24 build, apparently no one had bothered to tell him that .24 was released: http://heliacal.net/~solar/bitcoin/builds/MacOSX-Intel-0.3.24/bitcoin-v0.3.24.zip
3017 2011-07-18 16:50:52 <BlueMatt> Joric: pm me the first message
3018 2011-07-18 16:50:56 <gmaxwell> meh. must do other things. Good luck on the puzzle.
3019 2011-07-18 16:51:04 <Zagitta> lfm: i wasn't purposing a standart but rather an easier way to avoid the massive load bitcoind seem to inflict on your cpu when processing lots of getwork requests
3020 2011-07-18 16:52:15 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: jgarzik:  if laszlo is too busy to maintain OSX builds, I'd be happy to do that.
3021 2011-07-18 16:52:24 <lfm> Zagitta: ya, by standard i just meant its the sort of thing all the pools contend with and we dont need multiple variations in there.
3022 2011-07-18 16:52:50 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well for now he said hes fine doing it, someone just has to email him when new builds are released as he doesnt pay attention anymore...
3023 2011-07-18 16:53:16 <b4epoche> okay, just let me know
3024 2011-07-18 16:53:20 <BlueMatt> I will
3025 2011-07-18 16:53:48 <lfm> cd /mnt/
3026 2011-07-18 16:53:48 glassresistor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3027 2011-07-18 16:53:58 <b4epoche> eh, wrong window
3028 2011-07-18 16:54:05 <lfm> ya
3029 2011-07-18 16:54:05 <Zagitta> lfm: not sure i get your point?
3030 2011-07-18 16:54:07 darksk1ez has joined
3031 2011-07-18 16:54:08 <upb> hmm, that transaction doesnt show up in blockexplorer
3032 2011-07-18 16:54:22 TD has joined
3033 2011-07-18 16:54:28 <AndyBr> how few people are actually generating on testnet?
3034 2011-07-18 16:54:59 MobiusL has joined
3035 2011-07-18 16:55:25 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3036 2011-07-18 16:55:27 cronopio has joined
3037 2011-07-18 16:55:33 <AndyBr> i'm writing some software and using testnet to test it, but can't get transactions through
3038 2011-07-18 16:55:44 <b4epoche> AndyBr: not sure but it's been an issue
3039 2011-07-18 16:55:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Im gonna revise the second message, its too hard...
3040 2011-07-18 16:56:13 <klikklak> has anyone used the fpgaminer?  do you have to configure signaltap for it to work? or should it work out of the box?
3041 2011-07-18 16:56:13 <lfm> Zagitta: well you may be reinventing the wheel for one point. see if one of the pools has a patch that does what you need already. If you were thinking of making a patch for actually inclusion in the main bitcoin(d) then it might be worth asking the pool operators what features should be included.
3042 2011-07-18 16:56:13 <b4epoche> miners seem to test stuff there and generate tons of blocks (pushing up the difficulty) and then leave
3043 2011-07-18 16:56:19 <AndyBr> b4epoche: okay. it's tough, because i don't want web apps running on real net with a giant button that says "Test: Send me X BTC" :D
3044 2011-07-18 16:56:46 <lfm> b4epoche: yup
3045 2011-07-18 16:56:46 <b4epoche> AndyBr: yea, I've had the same issue.
3046 2011-07-18 16:56:49 <upb> BlueMatt: do you mean its spendable by modifying the transaction and submitting it ?
3047 2011-07-18 16:57:00 <upb> or its spendable by spending its output
3048 2011-07-18 16:57:08 <BlueMatt> upb: its spendable if you can create the scriptPubKey that spends its output
3049 2011-07-18 16:57:10 <b4epoche> I think there's a 'proposal' out there to maybe cap the testnet difficulty
3050 2011-07-18 16:57:21 <AndyBr> b4epoche: okay, but that could take months?
3051 2011-07-18 16:57:38 <BlueMatt> upb: that tx was submitted to luke's pool because its non-standard so he is the only one who will mine it
3052 2011-07-18 16:57:40 <b4epoche> can you 'test-net-in-a-box'?
3053 2011-07-18 16:57:45 <BlueMatt> upb: so it might take a while to get into a block
3054 2011-07-18 16:57:59 <AndyBr> b4epoche: asking me?
3055 2011-07-18 16:58:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: awww.
3056 2011-07-18 16:58:32 <b4epoche> AndyBr: yea
3057 2011-07-18 16:58:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well the second message really doesnt give you anything useful without some kinda off-the-wall guessing...
3058 2011-07-18 16:58:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: maybe Ill leave it for a day and then make it a bit easier...
3059 2011-07-18 16:58:58 glassresistor has joined
3060 2011-07-18 16:58:59 <AndyBr> if i could make my own testnet, then that'd be great. how many modifications are required? turn off irc, change default datadir, make genesis block, change the nodes people contact first
3061 2011-07-18 16:58:59 <gmaxwell> yea, thats how puzzle hunts works.
3062 2011-07-18 16:59:02 <gmaxwell> I approve of that.
3063 2011-07-18 16:59:16 <b4epoche> AndyBr: I never really had to resort to that (and was not able to get it running with very little effort)
3064 2011-07-18 16:59:22 <gim> any windows buildbot available yet?
3065 2011-07-18 16:59:43 <BlueMatt> gim: my jenkins does for nightly builds, you can also use gitian
3066 2011-07-18 16:59:48 <b4epoche> AndyBr: google for 'testnet in a box'
3067 2011-07-18 16:59:56 <BlueMatt> gim: I can set one up for bitcoin-qt or whatever if you want it
3068 2011-07-18 17:00:03 <b4epoche> AndyBr: it's really not that big of a deal to get running (I think)
3069 2011-07-18 17:00:16 <b4epoche> AndyBr: I just didn't put much effort into it
3070 2011-07-18 17:00:22 <AndyBr> holy fawk, if that one works it'd be awesome
3071 2011-07-18 17:00:29 <gim> i mean, i'd like to know if a certain patch breaks the compilation on Win32
3072 2011-07-18 17:00:43 <upb> yeah i dont think its possible since how can you create a scriptPubKey that matches a given sha
3073 2011-07-18 17:00:46 <BlueMatt> gim: yes BlueMattBot will come on here and complain if mingw or linux builds break
3074 2011-07-18 17:01:21 <Zagitta> lfm: so far pool operators haven't exactly been willing to share their solution... anyway you're right
3075 2011-07-18 17:01:26 altamic has joined
3076 2011-07-18 17:01:40 <gim> it guess it's not possible to give him some custom github commit hash
3077 2011-07-18 17:01:59 <AndyBr> b4epoche: would i be able to have multiple clients in it?
3078 2011-07-18 17:02:18 <b4epoche> AndyBr: I'm not all that familiar with it
3079 2011-07-18 17:02:26 <TD> AndyBr: it comes with two clients set up by default
3080 2011-07-18 17:02:31 <TD> AndyBr: you can add more of course
3081 2011-07-18 17:02:41 <TD> though i'm not sure why you'd need to
3082 2011-07-18 17:02:58 <Zagitta> lfm: wait a moment... the data field of the getwork response, that's the blockheader miners are supposed to start out with is it not?
3083 2011-07-18 17:02:59 <AndyBr> TD: well, i'll have multiple servers and clients in the private net
3084 2011-07-18 17:03:07 <AndyBr> TD: over the internets
3085 2011-07-18 17:04:32 SISUbtcX has left ()
3086 2011-07-18 17:06:22 ar4s has joined
3087 2011-07-18 17:06:28 <upb> BlueMatt: <@BlueMatt> upb: its spendable if you can create the scriptPubKey that spends its output <- you mean scriptSig, no ?
3088 2011-07-18 17:07:04 <nanotube> Zagitta: see the p2pool effort as well.
3089 2011-07-18 17:07:07 <nanotube> that's foss
3090 2011-07-18 17:07:45 <BlueMatt> upb: yea, sorry
3091 2011-07-18 17:08:11 copumpkin is now known as anafunctor
3092 2011-07-18 17:08:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: hum...  I CC'd him twice
3093 2011-07-18 17:08:29 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well he said he missed it somehow...
3094 2011-07-18 17:08:33 FellowTraveler has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3095 2011-07-18 17:08:50 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: " Past few weeks have been really busy for me so it's possible I just missed Jeff's email - he usually gives me a heads up."
3096 2011-07-18 17:09:11 <gim> that would be great if we could put long enough data in the chain accessible to scripts to store mathematical theorems.
3097 2011-07-18 17:09:21 <BlueMatt> why?
3098 2011-07-18 17:09:22 <gim> some money could be released to the first one that get a proof
3099 2011-07-18 17:09:29 <BlueMatt> oh lol
3100 2011-07-18 17:10:33 nijdie has left ("WeeChat 0.3.2")
3101 2011-07-18 17:10:37 <TD> BlueMatt: that's from martti?
3102 2011-07-18 17:10:43 <gim> like the 10M$ theoremes
3103 2011-07-18 17:10:57 <BlueMatt> TD: no laszlo re: 0.3.24 mac builds
3104 2011-07-18 17:11:11 <Zagitta> nanotube: yeah i've already had a look at it but i'm not sure how scaleable it is?
3105 2011-07-18 17:12:00 freakazoid has joined
3106 2011-07-18 17:12:03 <TD> oh
3107 2011-07-18 17:12:09 <nanotube> Zagitta: it seems workable to me.
3108 2011-07-18 17:12:11 <TD> sirius is still MIA? :(
3109 2011-07-18 17:12:19 <TD> we should really ask him to transfer DNS to gavin or jeff
3110 2011-07-18 17:12:24 <nanotube> TD: yes last i heard.
3111 2011-07-18 17:12:25 <BlueMatt> yes, though oddly he has been active on the forums...
3112 2011-07-18 17:12:43 <BlueMatt> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4
3113 2011-07-18 17:12:46 <BlueMatt> last active yesterday
3114 2011-07-18 17:12:49 <nanotube> gim: haha cute
3115 2011-07-18 17:12:55 <b4epoche> does he have any interest in keeping the forum status quo?
3116 2011-07-18 17:13:20 <TD> maybe
3117 2011-07-18 17:13:38 <nanotube> what do you guys think of starting a new forum on sf.net hosting, invite-only and moderated?
3118 2011-07-18 17:13:51 <nanotube> get all the 'good people' in, keep the riffraff out :)
3119 2011-07-18 17:13:53 <gim> nanotube: actualy that would require to put the proof checker in the chain also
3120 2011-07-18 17:13:59 <TD> i don't know. the forum has a lot of good stuff in it
3121 2011-07-18 17:14:07 <nanotube> TD: it can be archived of course
3122 2011-07-18 17:14:07 <TD> i'm pretty sure bitcoin would not have developed as fast without it
3123 2011-07-18 17:14:08 Orxenhorf has joined
3124 2011-07-18 17:14:21 <TD> the problem is people judge the whole project by whatever is in there.
3125 2011-07-18 17:14:28 <nanotube> yea
3126 2011-07-18 17:14:47 <TD> just moving it is a good start. but it seems we cannot even do this.
3127 2011-07-18 17:14:57 anafunctor is now known as copumpkin
3128 2011-07-18 17:15:06 <jaromil> guys. plz think twice about web forums. mailinglist is the way...
3129 2011-07-18 17:15:10 <jaromil> well. my 2c
3130 2011-07-18 17:15:23 <UukGoblin> I hate mailinglists
3131 2011-07-18 17:15:24 <mtrlt> mailing list sounds so old-fashioned :<
3132 2011-07-18 17:15:28 <nanotube> there is a mailing list already, jaromil
3133 2011-07-18 17:15:29 <UukGoblin> it's impossible to not get spam on them
3134 2011-07-18 17:15:36 <nanotube> UukGoblin: it is if they're moderated :)
3135 2011-07-18 17:15:51 <UukGoblin> moderation is PITA
3136 2011-07-18 17:15:54 <nanotube> yes it is
3137 2011-07-18 17:15:56 <nanotube> so is spam
3138 2011-07-18 17:16:00 <nanotube> choose one :)
3139 2011-07-18 17:16:01 <UukGoblin> yeah
3140 2011-07-18 17:16:04 <jaromil> ok fair enough you are reminding me i'm old. not that much, but well yes.
3141 2011-07-18 17:16:15 <jaromil> right there is one on sf, the -dev
3142 2011-07-18 17:16:37 <nanotube> jaromil: mailing lists are a fine tool for the job, imho.
3143 2011-07-18 17:16:41 <UukGoblin> nanotube, freetalk or whatever it was called ;-]
3144 2011-07-18 17:16:47 <UukGoblin> that'll keep the newbs out
3145 2011-07-18 17:16:49 <jaromil> i also saw methods to make a mailinglsit interactive from the web ... and even usenet/nntp :P
3146 2011-07-18 17:17:01 <b4epoche> but mailing lists and forums are not really the same
3147 2011-07-18 17:17:06 <nanotube> UukGoblin: what's that?
3148 2011-07-18 17:17:17 <UukGoblin> nanotube, a forum over freenet
3149 2011-07-18 17:17:18 <TD> they have different audiences
3150 2011-07-18 17:17:24 <nanotube> UukGoblin: aah :)
3151 2011-07-18 17:17:31 stuhood has joined
3152 2011-07-18 17:17:32 <UukGoblin> you pretty much need a freenet client connected 24/7 to receive posts ;-]
3153 2011-07-18 17:17:46 <UukGoblin> and it's got some interesting anti-spam stuff built-in
3154 2011-07-18 17:17:53 <UukGoblin> you solve captchas and stuff
3155 2011-07-18 17:17:53 <jaromil> yea. they are not the same. different demographics, qualitative difference. spam is everywhere anyway btw.
3156 2011-07-18 17:17:56 <nanotube> b4epoche: yes, for one, subscribing to a mailing list means you store the history on your hd. :) so it's like git in that everyone has a backup :D
3157 2011-07-18 17:18:06 * BlueMatt applauds Joric and gmaxwell for nearly solving and solving http://pastebin.com/VKi7psby pretty damn quick
3158 2011-07-18 17:18:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: is it solved?
3159 2011-07-18 17:18:30 <b4epoche> nanotube: well, you don't want to have 20 threads on a mailing list
3160 2011-07-18 17:18:43 <luke-jr> or I guess they need to wait for Eligius to do that
3161 2011-07-18 17:18:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, dont know if the transactions have been sent in yet, but I know the solution has been found...
3162 2011-07-18 17:18:56 <upb> wtf:P how was it possible
3163 2011-07-18 17:18:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you did pay the required fee, correct?
3164 2011-07-18 17:19:08 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yes, 0.0008192 iirc
3165 2011-07-18 17:19:26 <luke-jr> surprised it required that much, but ok :p
3166 2011-07-18 17:19:29 <BlueMatt> or was it one more 0...
3167 2011-07-18 17:19:45 <BlueMatt> I dont think it did, I just put up that much
3168 2011-07-18 17:20:07 * b4epoche thinks a self-supporting (non-profit but with income) forum is needed
3169 2011-07-18 17:20:52 * jaromil just discovered a mailinglist moderation app for android ... :P
3170 2011-07-18 17:21:04 <b4epoche> yes, with advertising (which I utterly /hate/ but...)
3171 2011-07-18 17:21:26 <upb> gmaxwell: can you explain ?
3172 2011-07-18 17:21:52 <upb> i thought it required pushing something on stack so that sha-1(something) == a228a5f5367648b230f17a085646e56ae6e4ae53
3173 2011-07-18 17:21:56 <BlueMatt> upb: it does
3174 2011-07-18 17:22:00 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3175 2011-07-18 17:22:07 <BlueMatt> upb: but there are more clues to help you figure it out
3176 2011-07-18 17:22:17 <BlueMatt> upb: Ill post the solution at http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.0 when one of the spend txes confirms
3177 2011-07-18 17:22:22 <luke-jr> b4epoche: the only way for a non-profit with income is to pay all the income :P
3178 2011-07-18 17:22:26 <nanotube> b4epoche: just use sf.net
3179 2011-07-18 17:22:27 <WakiMiko_> can you embed arbitrary string into script? like a trivia question?
3180 2011-07-18 17:22:31 <WakiMiko_> strings*
3181 2011-07-18 17:22:36 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: yep
3182 2011-07-18 17:22:39 <WakiMiko_> nice
3183 2011-07-18 17:22:44 <TD> WakiMiko_: "depends"
3184 2011-07-18 17:22:56 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3185 2011-07-18 17:22:58 <b4epoche> luke-jr: income != profit
3186 2011-07-18 17:22:59 <TD> WakiMiko_: by default miners won't allow you to do that unless you use awful hacks
3187 2011-07-18 17:23:05 <BlueMatt> well it becomes non-standard
3188 2011-07-18 17:23:07 <TD> WakiMiko_: like encoding the string into where a public key should be
3189 2011-07-18 17:23:08 <b4epoche> nanotube: sf.net?
3190 2011-07-18 17:23:14 <BlueMatt> so, you would have to send it to eligius
3191 2011-07-18 17:23:21 <nanotube> b4epoche: sourceforge.net
3192 2011-07-18 17:23:22 <TD> WakiMiko_: but if miners allow it, eg on testnet or eligius, then it'll get in
3193 2011-07-18 17:23:31 <nanotube> b4epoche: provides free hosting for foss projects
3194 2011-07-18 17:23:33 <b4epoche> nanotube: I know that, but why?
3195 2011-07-18 17:23:38 <b4epoche> ah
3196 2011-07-18 17:23:42 stuhood has left ()
3197 2011-07-18 17:23:43 SecretSJ has joined
3198 2011-07-18 17:23:48 <nanotube> b4epoche: so you don't have to worry about income or revenue or profit :)
3199 2011-07-18 17:24:04 <b4epoche> I'm not saying the income would go to hosting, but to mods, to buying bitcoin, etc.
3200 2011-07-18 17:24:14 <WakiMiko_> so you can have trivia questions in script, and the hashed answer, and to spend the coins you would have to supply the correct answer
3201 2011-07-18 17:24:21 <nanotube> b4epoche: why would forum need to buy bitcoin heh
3202 2011-07-18 17:24:50 <nanotube> also, it would be hard to make enough income to make the mod work worthwhile monetarily-speaking, anyway
3203 2011-07-18 17:24:58 <b4epoche> nanotube: I'm old enough to have seen nearly every project that can't somehow support itself die
3204 2011-07-18 17:25:00 <nanotube> you'd just end up throwing scraps to the mods
3205 2011-07-18 17:25:04 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3206 2011-07-18 17:25:20 <b4epoche> nanotube: regarding buying bitcoin, ask gmaxwell
3207 2011-07-18 17:25:22 <nanotube> indeed... modding is hard work
3208 2011-07-18 17:25:22 <TD> WakiMiko_: that's not a good way to do it
3209 2011-07-18 17:25:31 <WakiMiko_> how would you do it?
3210 2011-07-18 17:25:46 <TD> WakiMiko_: it's susceptible to brute forcing. if you don't know the answer you can prepare a list of millions of guesses and see which one fits
3211 2011-07-18 17:25:51 <b4epoche> nanotube: his idea was to help stabilize exchange rae
3212 2011-07-18 17:25:53 <b4epoche> rate
3213 2011-07-18 17:25:58 <TD> er, i wouldn't. i'd just run a web server and if you submit the right answer, send you the coins
3214 2011-07-18 17:26:33 huk has joined
3215 2011-07-18 17:26:37 <WakiMiko_> TD: so are private keys, and you gotta have a way to check the answer
3216 2011-07-18 17:27:08 <TD> private keys aren't really susceptible to brute forcing no
3217 2011-07-18 17:27:11 <TD> they are purely random
3218 2011-07-18 17:27:17 <TD> answers to trivia questions aren't
3219 2011-07-18 17:27:43 <WakiMiko_> doesnt mean they cant be brute forced though. anyway, how else would you check the correct answer
3220 2011-07-18 17:28:57 <TD> i don't understand your question
3221 2011-07-18 17:29:05 <TD> what do you mean "how else would you check the correct answer"?
3222 2011-07-18 17:29:41 <WakiMiko_> if you have a script that allows someone to spend the coins only if he can provide the correct answer to a question which is part of the script
3223 2011-07-18 17:29:56 <TD> and no private keys really can't be brute forced in any reasonable amount of time.
3224 2011-07-18 17:30:01 <TD> yes. i wouldn't use the block chain for that.
3225 2011-07-18 17:30:06 <TD> why would you want to do that with script?
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3227 2011-07-18 17:30:46 <WakiMiko_> TD: i just wanted to know if stuff like that would be possible
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3229 2011-07-18 17:31:01 <TD> well, it's technically possible. i wouldn't do it for that specific use case myself. have you read the contracts page ?
3230 2011-07-18 17:31:02 <WakiMiko_> hence my question if you could add arbritary strings to script
3231 2011-07-18 17:31:16 <WakiMiko_> no i havent read any script page :3
3232 2011-07-18 17:31:23 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
3233 2011-07-18 17:31:31 <TD> read that for some examples of what you can do with scripts safely
3234 2011-07-18 17:35:58 <luke-jr> b4epoche: income is either paid out, or profit
3235 2011-07-18 17:36:27 <b4epoche> luke-jr: precisely...  see first option ;-)
3236 2011-07-18 17:38:11 <WakiMiko_> TD: thanks
3237 2011-07-18 17:38:53 <b4epoche> sorry OT:  how the heck do I get Irssi.pm installed?
3238 2011-07-18 17:39:20 <nanotube> b4epoche: 'stabilizing exchange rate' is a fool's errand. let the supply and demand act of their own accord. (imo)
3239 2011-07-18 17:39:36 bliket_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3240 2011-07-18 17:40:34 <Tril> ;;isitdown bitcoinmonitor.com
3241 2011-07-18 17:40:40 <gribble> http://bitcoinmonitor.com Is Down -> Check if your website is up or down?
3242 2011-07-18 17:40:51 <b4epoche> nanotube: yea, I basically agree but it might help with adoption by businesses
3243 2011-07-18 17:42:03 <nanotube> b4epoche: well, if anyone cares to throw a few million usd into the 'stabilize exchange rate' errand, let them. you won't have success for long even with a million dollars, but at least you'll have a chance for a little while. :)
3244 2011-07-18 17:42:23 <upb> lol
3245 2011-07-18 17:42:31 <TD> hmm the -daemon switch doesn't really work on macos :(
3246 2011-07-18 17:43:27 <jgarzik> TD: does .24 build have bitcoind, and does that work?
3247 2011-07-18 17:43:32 <jgarzik> TD: I haven't looked at it yet
3248 2011-07-18 17:43:40 <TD> where can I find a .24 build?
3249 2011-07-18 17:43:44 <TD> the .23 build doesn't, afaik
3250 2011-07-18 17:43:52 <TD> i guess i should get into the habit of compiling my own
3251 2011-07-18 17:43:55 <jgarzik> TD: http://heliacal.net/~solar/bitcoin/builds/MacOSX-Intel-0.3.24/bitcoin-v0.3.24.zip
3252 2011-07-18 17:44:02 b4epoche_ has joined
3253 2011-07-18 17:44:03 * TD takes a look
3254 2011-07-18 17:44:13 <jgarzik> TD: just got that... about to post it on official SF download page
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3257 2011-07-18 17:46:01 <b4epoche_> or heck, just let the operator of the forums get rich off the ads
3258 2011-07-18 17:46:24 <forrestv> any devs care to comment on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/420 ?
3259 2011-07-18 17:46:37 <forrestv> Make 'getnewaddress' optionally also return the pubkey
3260 2011-07-18 17:48:06 <TD> sounds like a good idea to me
3261 2011-07-18 17:48:24 <TD> hehe, the guy at the meze grill is getting so much free advertising from the news networks. great stuff.
3262 2011-07-18 17:48:49 <nanotube> hope he's had a nice uptick in business :)
3263 2011-07-18 17:49:10 marvinm_ has joined
3264 2011-07-18 17:49:14 <TD> well you can't buy advertising like what he's getting if you're just a restaurant in new york, so yeah
3265 2011-07-18 17:49:17 <marvinm_> ;;bc,stats
3266 2011-07-18 17:49:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136913 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 174 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 45 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1682854.77570249
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3268 2011-07-18 17:50:52 <TD> jgarzik: it doesn't include bitcoind
3269 2011-07-18 17:51:04 <TD> i guess lazlo figures mac users won't want to run in headless mode
3270 2011-07-18 17:51:07 <TD> he's probably right :)
3271 2011-07-18 17:51:22 <BlueMatt> osx never has bad bitcoinds
3272 2011-07-18 17:51:33 <BlueMatt> s/bad/had/
3273 2011-07-18 17:51:57 Zagitta has joined
3274 2011-07-18 17:53:31 <Akiron> TD: has meze grill been in the news lately?
3275 2011-07-18 17:54:02 <TD> yeah
3276 2011-07-18 17:54:06 <TD> on al jazeera and cnn
3277 2011-07-18 17:54:21 <Akiron> ohh, when was BTC on CNN?
3278 2011-07-18 17:54:40 <BlueMatt> meze grill?
3279 2011-07-18 17:55:36 <b4epoche> taking btc?
3280 2011-07-18 17:55:45 <TD> http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2011/07/18/t_bitcoin_currency.cnnmoney/
3281 2011-07-18 17:56:11 <Akiron> did that play live on CNN Money?
3282 2011-07-18 17:56:13 <b4epoche> food looks good too
3283 2011-07-18 17:56:16 <TD> i assume so
3284 2011-07-18 17:57:19 <b4epoche> an older article:  http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/06/i_spent_a_coin_and_i_liked_it.html
3285 2011-07-18 17:57:53 <codemojo> CWallet::KeepKey // Remove from key pool
3286 2011-07-18 17:58:19 <codemojo> is this comment right?
3287 2011-07-18 17:58:40 <Akiron> woah, this is a really good CNN video
3288 2011-07-18 17:59:28 graingert has quit (Disconnected by services)
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3291 2011-07-18 18:00:16 <codemojo> ah, so if you keep the key you remove it from the pool. makes sense
3292 2011-07-18 18:00:21 <Akiron> is CNN Money a channel, or a program on the CNN channel?
3293 2011-07-18 18:00:43 <BlueMatt> awsome actually surprisingly fair and decently put together
3294 2011-07-18 18:00:48 <BlueMatt> not entirely, but pretty good
3295 2011-07-18 18:01:09 b4epoch__ has joined
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3297 2011-07-18 18:02:09 <b4epoche> I guess they always have to bring up the Ponzi scheme and illegal activity...
3298 2011-07-18 18:02:25 <BlueMatt> yea...
3299 2011-07-18 18:02:33 <b4epoche> anyway, I think it was generally positive
3300 2011-07-18 18:02:42 <BlueMatt> yep
3301 2011-07-18 18:03:06 <BlueMatt> better than many, worse than some, good enough
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3305 2011-07-18 18:04:14 <Akiron> so does CNN money air on CNN, it's own channel, or just this website?
3306 2011-07-18 18:06:03 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3311 2011-07-18 18:08:17 <Zagitta> hmm, if you make 10 getwork requests to bitcoind within the same second, what changes if there's been recieved no new transactions?
3312 2011-07-18 18:10:02 <forrestv> Zagitta, the nonce in the coinbase
3313 2011-07-18 18:12:29 <Zagitta> forrestv: thanks... so that also means i can't even cache the response and change the needed things myself :<
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3316 2011-07-18 18:14:15 <mtrlt> well, if the server supports it, you can do roll-ntime :p
3317 2011-07-18 18:14:18 <mtrlt> stock bitcoind totally doesn't
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3322 2011-07-18 18:17:03 <Zagitta> mtrlt: hmm?
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3325 2011-07-18 18:17:45 <klikklak> again, anyone with fpga experience around? do I need to mess about with signaltap or do I only have to change log2_loop and device settings then compile and use the tcl's to program and mine?
3326 2011-07-18 18:17:48 <mtrlt> if you're out of nonces, increment ntime in the block header and keep hashing
3327 2011-07-18 18:18:32 Guest32850 is now known as Cryo
3328 2011-07-18 18:18:45 <mtrlt> but it needs support from the pool/bitcoind
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3332 2011-07-18 18:20:16 <Zagitta> mtrlt: i'm not writing a miner but rather the pool, i was trying to avoid calling bitcoind for every recieved getwork request... anyway brb
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3339 2011-07-18 18:23:21 <diki> what does Address ledger is extremely large mean?
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3344 2011-07-18 18:33:48 <AndyBr> i'd like to set up a private bitcoin net for testing (testnet too slow). private net in a box looks nice. what are the requirements to make a net? config to only connect to specific nodes, noirc=1 and the blk0001.dat file?
3345 2011-07-18 18:35:11 <forrestv> AndyBr, just download the testnet-in-a-box
3346 2011-07-18 18:35:18 <AndyBr> done
3347 2011-07-18 18:35:40 <AndyBr> but my network will run across multiple computers
3348 2011-07-18 18:36:04 <forrestv> ah, then yeah, use connect=
3349 2011-07-18 18:37:05 <AndyBr> great
3350 2011-07-18 18:37:50 sshc__ has joined
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3352 2011-07-18 18:38:04 <TD> AndyBr: the TIAB is just a couple of config directories that are set up that way
3353 2011-07-18 18:38:09 <TD> so you can easily extend it
3354 2011-07-18 18:38:18 <AndyBr> tiab?
3355 2011-07-18 18:38:23 <AndyBr> oh... harp.
3356 2011-07-18 18:38:28 <TD> heh
3357 2011-07-18 18:38:31 <TD> testnet in a box
3358 2011-07-18 18:39:11 Joric_ is now known as Joric
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3361 2011-07-18 18:40:43 <Joric> check this out maybe you'll submit some bugfixes to sam https://github.com/joric/brutus
3362 2011-07-18 18:40:53 sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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3364 2011-07-18 18:42:18 <AndyBr> hmm, specified datadir does not exist...PS C:\users\moi\appdata\Roaming\Bitcoin> & 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\daemon\bitcoind.exe' -datadir olivenet
3365 2011-07-18 18:42:30 <Joric> python branch should evolve a way faster
3366 2011-07-18 18:42:49 <AndyBr> supposed to have datadir in the appdata folder, right?
3367 2011-07-18 18:46:10 lyspooner has joined
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3370 2011-07-18 18:48:26 <Incitatus> hey guys, can I ask your suggestions as to how we can promote intersango.us within the community?
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3385 2011-07-18 19:01:34 <Akiron> are there restrictions on what can be put into the scripts in the coinbase?
3386 2011-07-18 19:03:41 <BlueMatt> no
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3401 2011-07-18 19:09:15 <BlueMatt> ;;seen theymos
3402 2011-07-18 19:09:15 <gribble> theymos was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 11 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <theymos> This same problem has happened in the past and it wasn't fixed properly, so I don't have much confidence now...
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3418 2011-07-18 19:17:16 <AndyBr> yay! my own testnet is working. now wait for money to pour in
3419 2011-07-18 19:18:55 Optimo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3420 2011-07-18 19:19:39 <Joric> AndyBr, there's a bug in readme, it's actually only 0.125 difficulty, not 1
3421 2011-07-18 19:19:59 <Joric> so it mines 8 times faster than supposed
3422 2011-07-18 19:20:10 <AndyBr> do i need to have two instances running with gen=1 to make money or is one gen=0 and one gen=1 possible?
3423 2011-07-18 19:20:15 <AndyBr> rather not rape my laptop
3424 2011-07-18 19:20:46 <Joric> AnyBr, one is enough, probably, i'm not quite sure but it should generate
3425 2011-07-18 19:21:11 <Joric> i'm testing it with that https://github.com/joric/brutus
3426 2011-07-18 19:21:31 <midnightmagic> son of a bitch..  wtf?!  my IRC client screwed everyone last night.
3427 2011-07-18 19:21:47 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: meh, someone banned you from -otc-foyer and it stopped
3428 2011-07-18 19:22:05 <BlueMatt> not a big deal
3429 2011-07-18 19:22:19 rethaw has joined
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3432 2011-07-18 19:25:19 <Zagitta> AndyBr: weren't you the one testing how many getwork/sec your network could handle the other day?
3433 2011-07-18 19:25:20 <forrestv> hahah. at least you noticed that it had happened
3434 2011-07-18 19:27:00 <midnightmagic> bah, well, sorry folks, totally unintentional.
3435 2011-07-18 19:27:07 klikklak has joined
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3437 2011-07-18 19:31:43 <osmosis> Are any of the android bitcoin developers here?
3438 2011-07-18 19:32:24 <TD> osmosis: kinda
3439 2011-07-18 19:32:34 <TD> i will be back in about 20 mins. i work on bitcoinj (so the core)
3440 2011-07-18 19:32:45 <TD> what's your question?
3441 2011-07-18 19:32:53 <osmosis> TD, trying to troubleshoot a crash
3442 2011-07-18 19:33:02 <TD> pastebin me the stack trace
3443 2011-07-18 19:33:07 <Joric> i tried, bit the android emulator is super slow :) it's loading like 5 minutes
3444 2011-07-18 19:33:13 <osmosis> TD, ill have to figure out how to get the stack trace first
3445 2011-07-18 19:33:16 <TD> from adb logcat
3446 2011-07-18 19:33:22 <osmosis> TD, ok
3447 2011-07-18 19:33:25 <TD> but there are known crashes
3448 2011-07-18 19:33:27 paul0 has joined
3449 2011-07-18 19:33:29 <TD> so i'm not sure it's worth it :-)
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3458 2011-07-18 19:50:24 <prof7bit> what a lot of work...
3459 2011-07-18 19:51:06 <prof7bit> what have I begun...?
3460 2011-07-18 19:51:13 <Zagitta> Is there a trustworthy linux binary of bitcoind with the multithreaded rcp patch? i'd rather not have to set up all the dependencies if i don't have to :p
3461 2011-07-18 19:52:49 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
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3464 2011-07-18 19:54:10 <random_cat> is this issue (which looks like a rounding issue) a known matter: http://pastebin.com/eKLZEQjG
3465 2011-07-18 19:54:40 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3466 2011-07-18 19:55:11 <BlueMatt> not a rounding issue, that looks like a fee required issue
3467 2011-07-18 19:55:49 <random_cat> 32002 has a fee required for some transactions?
3468 2011-07-18 19:56:07 <BlueMatt> you are using 0.3.20.2?????
3469 2011-07-18 19:56:34 <BlueMatt> UPGRADE: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21767.msg373830#msg373830
3470 2011-07-18 19:56:35 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3471 2011-07-18 19:56:43 <BlueMatt> also, yes 0.3.20 does have fee required on txes
3472 2011-07-18 19:57:10 <BlueMatt> SERIOUSLY, BY RUNNING AN OLD VERSION, YOU ARE CAUSING SERIOUS HARM TO THE NETWORK random_cat
3473 2011-07-18 19:57:59 wolfspraul has joined
3474 2011-07-18 19:58:00 <copumpkin> we have bigger problems if an old version can cause serious harm to the network
3475 2011-07-18 19:58:04 wardearia has joined
3476 2011-07-18 19:58:06 <prof7bit> is it possible to harm the network? should be robust enough.
3477 2011-07-18 19:58:16 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: well the reason Im saying upgrade is because it has been fixed...
3478 2011-07-18 19:58:23 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: read the linked thread
3479 2011-07-18 19:58:40 <copumpkin> my point is that if some dude running an old version can undermine the network ,that's rather unsettling for the robustness of the whole system
3480 2011-07-18 19:58:48 <gmaxwell> Single users aren't harming it, the facts that a majority have not upgrade is harming it.
3481 2011-07-18 19:58:49 <BlueMatt> read the linked thread
3482 2011-07-18 19:58:54 <copumpkin> I am
3483 2011-07-18 20:01:02 ThomasV has joined
3484 2011-07-18 20:01:46 <copumpkin> ;;seen Mpower
3485 2011-07-18 20:01:46 <gribble> Mpower was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 8 hours, 8 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Mpower> Thanks tho.
3486 2011-07-18 20:01:58 <prof7bit> I wonder what will happen once I unleash my super fast Turbo client and the masses all start using it instead of the original client
3487 2011-07-18 20:02:09 erus` has joined
3488 2011-07-18 20:02:21 <gmaxwell> The <.24 bug is really great in combination with the <.23 bug where connections take extra time
3489 2011-07-18 20:02:24 <prof7bit> all your coins are belong to me
3490 2011-07-18 20:02:37 <copumpkin> prof7bit: somebody set up us the bomb!
3491 2011-07-18 20:02:48 <copumpkin> what happen!
3492 2011-07-18 20:03:00 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3493 2011-07-18 20:04:06 <diki> def pythonsucks(self)
3494 2011-07-18 20:05:04 <prof7bit> no. self is not a reference to the function "pythonsucks"
3495 2011-07-18 20:05:19 <prof7bit> nor to python itself
3496 2011-07-18 20:05:22 <BlueMatt> its a reference to diki
3497 2011-07-18 20:06:17 AndyBr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3498 2011-07-18 20:06:21 <prof7bit> python is a nice language to get things done real quick, it does not suck.
3499 2011-07-18 20:06:25 * TD still thinks there should be an upgrade broadcast
3500 2011-07-18 20:06:31 <TD> and the client should do upgrade nags.
3501 2011-07-18 20:06:43 <TD> we're way too gentle with upgrade notifications currently given the very serious bugs older clients have
3502 2011-07-18 20:06:52 <BlueMatt> well general supporting upgrade notifications is better than using notifications to upgrade people
3503 2011-07-18 20:07:11 <random_cat> anyone care to contact jonas smedegaard and micah anderson to prompt an update to the debian repositories?
3504 2011-07-18 20:07:34 <BlueMatt> you can
3505 2011-07-18 20:07:40 <random_cat> (or know them?)
3506 2011-07-18 20:07:42 <prof7bit> this should not be broadcasted across the network. because there is more than one different client.
3507 2011-07-18 20:07:50 <TD> bitcoin shouldn't be in debian at all
3508 2011-07-18 20:07:53 <BlueMatt> jonas' email is public, contact them
3509 2011-07-18 20:07:56 <TD> i know we can't really stop them
3510 2011-07-18 20:07:57 <BlueMatt> TD: why???
3511 2011-07-18 20:08:06 <TD> because of this problem. linux distros just don't keep their users up to date
3512 2011-07-18 20:08:23 <BlueMatt> by that logic linux shouldnt release packages of anything
3513 2011-07-18 20:08:25 <TD> but it's important that bitcoin users do upgrade, for network stability and scaling reasons
3514 2011-07-18 20:08:38 <TD> yes, indeed. i fully agree with that position. the way linux handles software distribution has been broken for many years
3515 2011-07-18 20:08:40 <BlueMatt> having the packages in os repos means more upgrades than now
3516 2011-07-18 20:08:56 <BlueMatt> now people have to go to the site and check for upgrades
3517 2011-07-18 20:08:59 <TD> i talked with shuttleworth about it once. he pretty much agreed, but wasn't able/willing to take that shibboleth on
3518 2011-07-18 20:09:17 <TD> not if the software can upgrade itself, or tell the user it's time to upgrade
3519 2011-07-18 20:09:23 <BlueMatt> well the solution to that problem is rolling releases, and that is a huge, huge pain
3520 2011-07-18 20:09:35 <TD> the solution is to do what windows and macos x do
3521 2011-07-18 20:09:35 <BlueMatt> na, os-level is much, much nicer
3522 2011-07-18 20:09:38 <TD> have apps upgrade themselves
3523 2011-07-18 20:09:40 <BlueMatt> you just need good maintainers
3524 2011-07-18 20:09:43 <TD> the way chrome does it is perfect
3525 2011-07-18 20:09:52 <BlueMatt> from a user-perspective os-level upgrades is 1000x better
3526 2011-07-18 20:09:58 <BlueMatt> well, ok chrome is best
3527 2011-07-18 20:09:59 <TD> it's not about maintainers, though there are many bad ones - the worst are those who apply patches they don't understand of course
3528 2011-07-18 20:10:06 <TD> which is VERY dangerous for bitcoin
3529 2011-07-18 20:10:14 <TD> it's about keeping up
3530 2011-07-18 20:10:18 <TD> debian/ubuntu freeze versions
3531 2011-07-18 20:10:23 <TD> they then try to backport security fixes
3532 2011-07-18 20:10:30 <BlueMatt> well we can easily call 0.3.24 a security fix
3533 2011-07-18 20:10:32 <TD> this will inevitably lead to chaos
3534 2011-07-18 20:10:41 <TD> because they'll get it wrong. i've seen this many times back when i was a linux developer
3535 2011-07-18 20:10:49 <WakiMiko> it worked fine for openssl *rolls eyes*
3536 2011-07-18 20:10:53 <BlueMatt> well yes that is a problem...
3537 2011-07-18 20:11:02 bc has joined
3538 2011-07-18 20:11:07 <TD> the correct solution is to take distros out of the equation entirely. put in a README that asks them not to package and/or something in configure.ac that detects these distros build systems
3539 2011-07-18 20:11:12 <BlueMatt> but then the real solution would be rolling releases and there are way more problems with that
3540 2011-07-18 20:11:27 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3541 2011-07-18 20:11:30 <TD> these "problems" only exist because of the linux worlds messed up idea of OS design.
3542 2011-07-18 20:11:39 <TD> other platforms don't have trouble with it at all
3543 2011-07-18 20:11:39 TheZimm has joined
3544 2011-07-18 20:11:40 <BlueMatt> well there is no way in hell I want to keep releasing builds for bitcoin
3545 2011-07-18 20:11:47 <BlueMatt> it doesnt work across distros and there is no way to make it
3546 2011-07-18 20:11:56 <TD> i wrote a tool some years ago to make these binaries work better
3547 2011-07-18 20:11:58 <BlueMatt> packages have to be distro-specific because of the way linux is
3548 2011-07-18 20:11:59 <prof7bit> then freeze the bitcoin version also and only uodate minor-minor-numbers. then the distributors can think it is "safe" to upgade.
3549 2011-07-18 20:12:00 <TD> i could try and resurrect it
3550 2011-07-18 20:12:05 <Eliel_> TD: frankly, the linux (especially debian) package management system is a huge part of why I use it.
3551 2011-07-18 20:12:26 danbri has joined
3552 2011-07-18 20:12:32 <TD> BlueMatt: that's a common misconception, at a binary level it's not really true. it's possible to make portable binaries.
3553 2011-07-18 20:12:38 <Eliel_> it has it's drawbacks but it is a very nice system overall.
3554 2011-07-18 20:12:38 Cherothald has joined
3555 2011-07-18 20:12:48 <TD> it's a horrible system for anyone who actually tries to distribute software
3556 2011-07-18 20:12:49 <BlueMatt> TD: no, it is possible, but its such a huge, huge pain its just not worth it
3557 2011-07-18 20:12:58 <TD> your users end up on ancient, often buggy versions that they then blame you for
3558 2011-07-18 20:13:10 <BlueMatt> no, its a convenient system for distributing software, developers just dump code and forget about it
3559 2011-07-18 20:13:20 <random_cat> lol @ "it's not worth it"
3560 2011-07-18 20:13:20 <TD> we should just put in really obnoxious update nags. or have the ability to tell bitcoin to refuse to start up after a while
3561 2011-07-18 20:13:33 <BlueMatt> oh, that I agree with
3562 2011-07-18 20:13:43 <TD> well, if you're ok with dumping code and not supporting it, sure. most developers want to support their software though.
3563 2011-07-18 20:13:47 <b4epoche> expiring betas?
3564 2011-07-18 20:13:48 <TD> and for a p2p network there isn't much choice
3565 2011-07-18 20:13:55 <TD> b4epoche: yeah, linux binaries should expire imho
3566 2011-07-18 20:14:03 <TD> of course then the debian guys would probably patch that out
3567 2011-07-18 20:14:04 <BlueMatt> "most developers want to support their software though." <---haha
3568 2011-07-18 20:14:14 <TD> ok, most developers outside of the linux world
3569 2011-07-18 20:14:24 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  the key what is "want"
3570 2011-07-18 20:14:25 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3571 2011-07-18 20:14:26 <BlueMatt> google doesnt support anything, how can you say that?
3572 2011-07-18 20:14:37 <gmaxwell> obviously bitcoin should be replace with a VM and the actual client sent via blockchain updates.
3573 2011-07-18 20:14:38 <BlueMatt> google writes a help.py and forgets about it
3574 2011-07-18 20:14:38 <b4epoche> I think most want to, it's just they wind up without the time
3575 2011-07-18 20:14:40 <TD> i think the best approach is just to have a big health warning on bitcoin.org saying, if you use bitcoin on linux, grab the binaries we provide ->here<- and don't use the versions from the repositories
3576 2011-07-18 20:14:48 <TD> google does support its software
3577 2011-07-18 20:14:50 <TD> not on linux
3578 2011-07-18 20:14:59 <TD> because linux makes supporting software extremely hard (because of distros, mostly)
3579 2011-07-18 20:15:13 <prof7bit> client sent via blockchain updates  <-- am i allowed to send updated for my own client though the blockchanin too?
3580 2011-07-18 20:15:13 <BlueMatt> is there anyone I can email if gmail is broken? no same for 99% of google's products
3581 2011-07-18 20:15:17 <TD> on windows, macos we do handle upgrades, fix crashes we find via automatic crash reports, etc
3582 2011-07-18 20:15:26 <TD> sure there is. you can file tickets. they do get looked at, believe it or not.
3583 2011-07-18 20:15:26 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: I was making a crazy joke.
3584 2011-07-18 20:15:29 <Eliel_> TD: basically, distros grab the support job to themselves.
3585 2011-07-18 20:15:30 <TD> but that's not software. that's a service.
3586 2011-07-18 20:15:39 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: the fact that you didn't catch that reflects negatively on your judgement.
3587 2011-07-18 20:16:07 <BlueMatt> TD: Ive never seen a ticket program for google, but anyway this is off topic
3588 2011-07-18 20:16:08 <TD> Eliel_: they suck at it and often cause more harm than good. i know because i used to work for a firm that did actually distribute and support software on linux
3589 2011-07-18 20:16:22 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  indeed
3590 2011-07-18 20:16:24 <Eliel_> TD: but with debian and ubuntu, I'd suggest setting up a repository of your own and trying to get people on that.
3591 2011-07-18 20:16:26 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3592 2011-07-18 20:16:36 <prof7bit> here in this channel it is not easy to distinguish between jokes and serious opinions.
3593 2011-07-18 20:16:59 <BlueMatt> I agree bitcoin should popup and say "Hey you are on an old version, upgrade now or else" and screw the distros over, but...
3594 2011-07-18 20:17:00 <TD> Eliel_: that works too, if somebody wants to maintain it AND debian/ubuntu don't distribute it themselves.
3595 2011-07-18 20:17:02 <Eliel_> it's easy enough to make a .deb package people can install that adds the repo.
3596 2011-07-18 20:17:06 MC1984 has joined
3597 2011-07-18 20:17:07 <gmaxwell> TD: They do well within their own universes. But with a rapidly developing (well hopefully) networked system, it doesn't fit well.
3598 2011-07-18 20:17:21 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3599 2011-07-18 20:17:34 <prof7bit> also, gmaxwell, i was making a joke too! The fact that you did not catch that reflects negatively on your judgement.
3600 2011-07-18 20:17:38 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah. an upgrade broadcast is a good start. it'd at least appear in the status bar.
3601 2011-07-18 20:17:44 <TD> should be a popup imho, guess that's an easy change
3602 2011-07-18 20:17:51 * b4epoche says that bitcoin should just abandon linux support
3603 2011-07-18 20:18:06 <Eliel_> I think the main problem with the way distros work is that they seem to treat every package they include like it's a release version. Even when they aren't.
3604 2011-07-18 20:18:06 <gmaxwell> ...
3605 2011-07-18 20:18:08 * BlueMatt  thinks bitcoin should abandon support for windows and mac first
3606 2011-07-18 20:18:25 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: like its a stable version that can be kept for two years, in fact.
3607 2011-07-18 20:18:33 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: precisely.
3608 2011-07-18 20:18:44 <Eliel_> ubuntu is slightly better, given their 6 month upgrade cycle but...
3609 2011-07-18 20:18:44 <gmaxwell> I second dropping windows and mac, we can't even get people to build on mac. And windows users don't submit patches.
3610 2011-07-18 20:19:08 <gmaxwell> (I was kidding there too, prof7bit)
3611 2011-07-18 20:19:11 <b4epoche> hmm…  patch-coin might be an interesting idea ;-)
3612 2011-07-18 20:19:19 <TD> heh
3613 2011-07-18 20:19:21 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r149 /trunk/ (13 files in 3 dirs): Make the unit tests more realistic and fix two bugs this revealed: ... http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r149/
3614 2011-07-18 20:19:25 <TD> i could build on the mac if lazlo stopped
3615 2011-07-18 20:19:27 <BlueMatt> TD: well not sure what the best way to do it, but yea, it should...how people upgrade is left to them though, and its not really the fault of debian, yea its package system isnt ideal, but there are clear reasons behind it, if we give them the patches that are very important they get added, even if they dont get everything they get the most important stuff
3616 2011-07-18 20:19:33 <b4epoche> gmaxwell:  I have offered a few times to build osx versions
3617 2011-07-18 20:19:36 <BlueMatt> TD: no, he just didnt get the memo that 0.3.24 was out
3618 2011-07-18 20:19:38 <TD> i haven't been doing so because it's kind of a pain and i've been busy with other things
3619 2011-07-18 20:19:42 <prof7bit> gmaxwell: an i also was only kidding with my last reply.
3620 2011-07-18 20:19:53 <BlueMatt> TD: and you are the 3rd person to offer that, but thanks :)
3621 2011-07-18 20:20:00 <TD> cool
3622 2011-07-18 20:20:07 <TD> i might see if i can resurrect apbuild
3623 2011-07-18 20:20:13 <TD> it may make the linux binaries easier to support
3624 2011-07-18 20:20:14 <b4epoche> see, a vibrant osx community
3625 2011-07-18 20:20:18 <TD> not this week or next week though
3626 2011-07-18 20:20:40 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3627 2011-07-18 20:21:09 Reviou is now known as Amtal
3628 2011-07-18 20:21:14 <b4epoche> is there a breakdown of distro use somewhere?
3629 2011-07-18 20:21:26 <BlueMatt> 99% debian/ubuntu 1% other
3630 2011-07-18 20:21:38 <b4epoche> so what's the problem?
3631 2011-07-18 20:21:44 <Eliel_> distrowatch is perhaps the best stats http://distrowatch.com/
3632 2011-07-18 20:21:45 <b4epoche> the 1%
3633 2011-07-18 20:21:50 <BlueMatt> the 1% feel as entitled as the rest
3634 2011-07-18 20:21:50 brunner has joined
3635 2011-07-18 20:22:06 <prof7bit> link it against what is available on debian stable and the binary will run everywhere.
3636 2011-07-18 20:22:10 Beccara has joined
3637 2011-07-18 20:22:11 <lfm> one percenters?
3638 2011-07-18 20:22:20 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: thats what is done, and guess what it doesnt
3639 2011-07-18 20:22:39 <b4epoche> http://distrowatch.com/ seems to suggest different than 99/1
3640 2011-07-18 20:22:47 <BlueMatt> it was a joke
3641 2011-07-18 20:23:16 <TD> if you're willing to static link big dependencies (like qt/wx) you can make pretty robust binaries, if you have magic sauce
3642 2011-07-18 20:23:17 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  I mean I realize 99/1 to was a joke, but it's like 20/20/20/20/20
3643 2011-07-18 20:23:20 <lfm> b4epoche: oh well I guess it must be wrong then
3644 2011-07-18 20:23:21 <TD> (make them on any distro)
3645 2011-07-18 20:23:31 <TD> btw, has anyone tried the qt based gui?
3646 2011-07-18 20:23:35 <TD> it seems to be coming along very nicely
3647 2011-07-18 20:23:56 <b4epoche> Mint?
3648 2011-07-18 20:24:07 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: mint is a derivative of ubuntu, so I counted it there
3649 2011-07-18 20:24:13 <Eliel_> mint is ubuntu, basically
3650 2011-07-18 20:24:16 <BlueMatt> and ubuntu is a derivative of debian
3651 2011-07-18 20:24:37 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3652 2011-07-18 20:24:38 <BlueMatt> so its really like 60 ubuntu/debian 40 everything else, probably 30 of which are fedora
3653 2011-07-18 20:24:42 <Eliel_> the only real difference is different default theme as well as the default software selection
3654 2011-07-18 20:24:44 <BlueMatt> and maybe 10 arch
3655 2011-07-18 20:25:13 <prof7bit> arch might be more
3656 2011-07-18 20:25:23 <Eliel_> As I understand it, Mint got born because Ubuntu doesn't install support for restricted media codecs by default
3657 2011-07-18 20:25:25 <b4epoche> seriously, at some point you have to say, get on a mainstream distro or don't use bitcoin
3658 2011-07-18 20:25:36 <lfm> yellow dog is prolly really #1
3659 2011-07-18 20:25:48 <BlueMatt> well if you use an old version of debian/ubuntu it wont work either
3660 2011-07-18 20:26:03 <BlueMatt> though if you are using an old version which is not supported...
3661 2011-07-18 20:26:10 <b4epoche> again, you can only go back so far...
3662 2011-07-18 20:26:11 <Eliel_> can't you make a source package with reasonably streamlined compilation system?
3663 2011-07-18 20:26:24 <BlueMatt> no
3664 2011-07-18 20:26:35 <Eliel_> that should take care of those who run something weird. That's how it's usually done
3665 2011-07-18 20:26:48 <b4epoche> I mean, I'd love to run bitcoin on the embedded system controlling my car engine, but...
3666 2011-07-18 20:26:54 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3667 2011-07-18 20:26:58 <prof7bit> it should compile on any distro. seriously. what hyper-über-bleeding edge space alien technology does it use so it can't be linked against some *normal* versions of libs?
3668 2011-07-18 20:27:04 <lfm> Eliel_: doesnt mean its easy to build then either
3669 2011-07-18 20:27:20 <b4epoche> is there a concept of 'fat binaries' on linux?
3670 2011-07-18 20:27:35 <Eliel_> lfm: yes, but people running unstandard systems are expected to know their stuff
3671 2011-07-18 20:27:43 <lfm> prof7bit: and everyone has their own definition of normal libs
3672 2011-07-18 20:28:00 <b4epoche> I think the point here was binary distribution, no?
3673 2011-07-18 20:28:12 <TD> yeah
3674 2011-07-18 20:28:18 <prof7bit> normal version != latest dev snapshot from half an hour ago.
3675 2011-07-18 20:28:33 <gmaxwell> It builds fine on fedora except: (1) redhat patches out all ECC support from openssl because the openssl folks wouldn't make the patented crap seperable (admittedly hard), (2) it tries to compile statically. Otherwise it just works on fedora.
3676 2011-07-18 20:28:35 <BlueMatt> ok, emailed jonas, hopefully he'll get the necessary stuff in and get those packages uptodate
3677 2011-07-18 20:28:41 <lfm> prof7bit: thats some people's definition of bleeding edge
3678 2011-07-18 20:28:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you are forgetting that you need wx2.9
3679 2011-07-18 20:29:24 <gmaxwell> oh, no, I wasn't forgeting. I didn't know. :-/ Never compiled the gui.
3680 2011-07-18 20:29:30 <gmaxwell> Never even tried.
3681 2011-07-18 20:29:31 <prof7bit> lfm != != =
3682 2011-07-18 20:29:31 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
3683 2011-07-18 20:30:35 <b4epoche> but that (wx) could be statically linked, no?
3684 2011-07-18 20:30:48 <lfm> b4 not to a source distro
3685 2011-07-18 20:30:49 <BlueMatt> as can openssl
3686 2011-07-18 20:31:00 <BlueMatt> lfm: wx is static linked right now
3687 2011-07-18 20:31:20 <lfm> bluemattnot on my machine! grin
3688 2011-07-18 20:31:22 <b4epoche> static link everything
3689 2011-07-18 20:31:23 <BlueMatt> everything can be static linked, oh hey everything is
3690 2011-07-18 20:31:50 <b4epoche> all the way down
3691 2011-07-18 20:31:57 <BlueMatt> you cant do that
3692 2011-07-18 20:32:02 <BlueMatt> or we would have to ship our own kernel too
3693 2011-07-18 20:32:09 <lfm> tutles!
3694 2011-07-18 20:32:34 <Eliel_> well, there _is_ the case of running system exclusively as a bitcoin system but...
3695 2011-07-18 20:32:46 <b4epoche> yea, I think Linux is turtles all the way down
3696 2011-07-18 20:33:14 <lfm> link x in too, oh boy!
3697 2011-07-18 20:33:27 <Eliel_> b4epoche: there's no linux. There is Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora and so on though. ;)
3698 2011-07-18 20:33:39 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: there is gnu
3699 2011-07-18 20:33:41 <b4epoche> Eliel_:  Linux = all of them
3700 2011-07-18 20:33:45 <ersi> BitcoinOS
3701 2011-07-18 20:33:56 <prof7bit> port it to Java. problem solved.
3702 2011-07-18 20:34:05 <ersi> let's just ship a freggin virtual machine and be done with it
3703 2011-07-18 20:34:15 <lfm> you want bitcoin? order boot thumb drive from us.
3704 2011-07-18 20:34:30 <Eliel_> b4epoche: yes, apples and pears are both fruits too but I don't see people complaining about fruits being crappy when they find a worm in an apple. :P
3705 2011-07-18 20:34:44 <lfm> ersi ya but virtual machine for which hypervisor?
3706 2011-07-18 20:34:53 <BlueMatt> lfm: ship virtualbox with it
3707 2011-07-18 20:34:56 <ersi> lfm: Let's make our own!
3708 2011-07-18 20:34:59 <Namegduf> I would like to volunteer to make these. I would also like to advertise a new programming position open, skill in obfustication of backdoors necessary.
3709 2011-07-18 20:35:05 <b4epoche> Eliel_:  I have no idea what you're getting at…  you're confused by something
3710 2011-07-18 20:35:23 <ersi> Let's use open source logic on this and just make an own version of everything
3711 2011-07-18 20:35:38 <mtrlt> forks solve everything
3712 2011-07-18 20:35:47 <ersi> "Fork it, we'll do it live!"
3713 2011-07-18 20:35:50 <b4epoche> blindly reverse everything
3714 2011-07-18 20:36:04 AnAdorableNick is now known as ByronJohnson
3715 2011-07-18 20:36:07 <random_cat> knives are better than forks
3716 2011-07-18 20:36:12 <Eliel_> b4epoche: just annoyed with people talking of linux like it was a homogeneous single system.
3717 2011-07-18 20:36:16 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3718 2011-07-18 20:36:43 <lfm> ya should have separate ubuntu-bitcoin and fedora-bitcoin and sue-bitcoin block chains
3719 2011-07-18 20:36:51 <lfm> suse
3720 2011-07-18 20:37:00 <b4epoche> Eliel_:  I don't like when people call a tensor a matrix, but sometimes it really just doesn't matter
3721 2011-07-18 20:37:00 danbri has joined
3722 2011-07-18 20:37:01 <TD> huh
3723 2011-07-18 20:37:07 <TD> why is LFnet using an iranian tld?
3724 2011-07-18 20:37:35 <BlueMatt> probably because someone is concerned about getting shutdown by icann/ice
3725 2011-07-18 20:37:38 <lfm> arnt they all over the place?
3726 2011-07-18 20:37:39 <b4epoche> it's all friggin' unix to me
3727 2011-07-18 20:38:04 <prof7bit> my binaries run everywhere.
3728 2011-07-18 20:38:12 <gmaxwell> there is ~nothing on lfnet except bitcoin
3729 2011-07-18 20:38:16 <lfm> ya sure go to iran to avoid censorship huh?
3730 2011-07-18 20:38:22 <gmaxwell> At least nothing visible in the who output...
3731 2011-07-18 20:38:27 <BlueMatt> lfm: yea, seems odd to me
3732 2011-07-18 20:38:30 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3733 2011-07-18 20:38:43 <gmaxwell> (well, namecoin, testnet, weeds, etc)
3734 2011-07-18 20:39:15 <TD> does anyone know what creates the nicks starting with x then a random number?
3735 2011-07-18 20:39:36 <Eliel_> b4epoche: yes close enough that you'd expect them to work same but different enough to often not quite do it.
3736 2011-07-18 20:39:38 <BlueMatt> bitcoin, its ips encoded
3737 2011-07-18 20:39:41 <BlueMatt> if you mean on lfnet?
3738 2011-07-18 20:39:47 <BlueMatt> or wait, no x is wrong isnt it?
3739 2011-07-18 20:39:59 <TD> bitcoin uses nicks starting with u
3740 2011-07-18 20:40:13 Cherothald has joined
3741 2011-07-18 20:40:30 <TD> at least i think it always does
3742 2011-07-18 20:40:50 * Zagitta laugh at silly unmanaged language devs and their porting issue 
3743 2011-07-18 20:41:01 stuhood1 has joined
3744 2011-07-18 20:41:24 <upb> as far as i read from the source, it doesnt use u before it gets its own external ip from irc
3745 2011-07-18 20:41:36 denisx has joined
3746 2011-07-18 20:41:53 rynx has joined
3747 2011-07-18 20:42:35 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r150 /trunk/ (AUTHORS src/com/google/bitcoin/discovery/IrcDiscovery.java): Fix IrcDiscovery to not expect the IRC server to return the user list when ... http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r150/
3748 2011-07-18 20:42:46 <TD> upb: oh, you're right
3749 2011-07-18 20:42:47 <TD> i missed that
3750 2011-07-18 20:43:47 <lfm> so ignore the x ones?
3751 2011-07-18 20:43:56 <upb> btw what do you mean by iranian tld ? its lfnet.ir ?
3752 2011-07-18 20:44:33 groffer has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3753 2011-07-18 20:44:44 <TD> <- :irc.lechat.ir 001 bcj1102262310 :Welcome to the LFNet Internet Relay Chat Network bcj1102262310
3754 2011-07-18 20:44:44 <TD> <- :irc.lechat.ir 002 bcj1102262310 :Your host is irc.lechat.ir[193.107.204.22/6667], running version hybrid-7.2.3
3755 2011-07-18 20:44:59 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3756 2011-07-18 20:45:06 <upb> oh
3757 2011-07-18 20:45:11 ByronJohnson has quit ()
3758 2011-07-18 20:45:13 <TD> i guess it's just a vanity domain
3759 2011-07-18 20:45:14 stuhood1 has left ()
3760 2011-07-18 20:45:19 <lfm> so they use .ir to mean .irc?
3761 2011-07-18 20:45:39 <TD> dunno
3762 2011-07-18 20:45:40 <TD> guess so
3763 2011-07-18 20:46:12 <upb> the whole stuff sounds like a mess :)
3764 2011-07-18 20:46:24 <upb> an .ir domain owned by a company named 'MARCARIA.COM EU, Ltd' registered in the US ?
3765 2011-07-18 20:46:38 <IO-> http://www.irtld.com/
3766 2011-07-18 20:46:45 <lfm> .ir is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Iran.
3767 2011-07-18 20:46:45 <IO-> they even accept PP
3768 2011-07-18 20:46:58 <TD> interesting
3769 2011-07-18 20:47:09 <TD> i thought paypal wouldn't be allowed to send money to iran
3770 2011-07-18 20:47:26 <lfm> prolly the front company isnt in iran
3771 2011-07-18 20:47:31 <IO-> outsource TLD mangament to a US based company
3772 2011-07-18 20:47:37 <IO-> mail checks or EFT's to iran
3773 2011-07-18 20:47:47 <lfm> It is managed by the Institute for Studies in Theoretical Physics and Mathematics.
3774 2011-07-18 20:47:51 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3775 2011-07-18 20:48:17 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
3776 2011-07-18 20:48:19 <lfm> according to wikipaedia
3777 2011-07-18 20:48:30 <upb> lol
3778 2011-07-18 20:48:32 <upb>    Hoda Inc
3779 2011-07-18 20:48:32 <upb>    Reza Najafi  reza00908@hotmail.com
3780 2011-07-18 20:48:41 <upb> contact on irtld.com
3781 2011-07-18 20:48:51 <IO-> lol hotmail
3782 2011-07-18 20:49:00 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
3783 2011-07-18 20:49:04 <BlueMatt> wow that gives trust...
3784 2011-07-18 20:49:11 <IO-> i wonder if they manually edit zone files
3785 2011-07-18 20:49:27 <BlueMatt> lol, probably
3786 2011-07-18 20:49:29 <IO-> pico /var/named/pri/ir.zone
3787 2011-07-18 20:49:30 <IO-> serial++
3788 2011-07-18 20:49:33 <IO-> HUP
3789 2011-07-18 20:49:36 Bachfischer has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
3790 2011-07-18 20:49:47 <prof7bit> upb:  of course they do not use iranian mailboxes there. would you want to have an iranian mail provider?
3791 2011-07-18 20:50:02 <BlueMatt> thats like .tt, when I was looking at them a couple years ago the only way to get a domain was to email them and ask for a quote
3792 2011-07-18 20:50:20 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3793 2011-07-18 20:50:55 <lfm> nice is audi.tt available?
3794 2011-07-18 20:51:00 rethaw has joined
3795 2011-07-18 20:51:28 <IO-> you'll have to email and ask
3796 2011-07-18 20:51:41 rynx has joined
3797 2011-07-18 20:51:44 <lfm> look like audi corp has it
3798 2011-07-18 20:51:47 <prof7bit> <lfm> nice is audi.tt available?  <--- click on the link to know it
3799 2011-07-18 20:51:52 <upb> http://www.nic.ir/ <- this is the real nic :)
3800 2011-07-18 20:51:58 sshc__ has joined
3801 2011-07-18 20:52:19 <BlueMatt> god, why would anyone ever use HURD, it should have been put out of its misery years ago
3802 2011-07-18 20:52:22 sshc___ has joined
3803 2011-07-18 20:52:31 <lfm> hehe
3804 2011-07-18 20:52:32 <erus`> its a good idea BlueMatt
3805 2011-07-18 20:52:50 <erus`> we are reaching the point where we have more processing power than we need
3806 2011-07-18 20:52:52 <BlueMatt> erus`: but its poorly done and its just so far behind it needs to be left behind
3807 2011-07-18 20:53:15 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3808 2011-07-18 20:53:18 <erus`> might aswel spend a bit for safety and fault tolerance
3809 2011-07-18 20:53:45 <lfm> interesting in an acedemic sort of way
3810 2011-07-18 20:53:51 <erus`> well i havnt even looked at a line of code so i will take your word for it
3811 2011-07-18 20:54:41 leroux has joined
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3814 2011-07-18 20:56:19 <random_cat> thanks for the tip on the transaction fees, bluematt.  i was confused about how transaction fees worked
3815 2011-07-18 20:56:38 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3816 2011-07-18 20:56:55 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3817 2011-07-18 20:57:05 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
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3819 2011-07-18 20:57:32 rethaw has joined
3820 2011-07-18 20:57:40 <prof7bit> HURD is reöeased already: http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/hurd-news.en.html
3821 2011-07-18 20:58:24 sshc has joined
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3823 2011-07-18 20:58:37 <prof7bit> s/ö/l
3824 2011-07-18 20:58:39 rethaw has quit (Client Quit)
3825 2011-07-18 20:59:42 * prof7bit is away: abwesend
3826 2011-07-18 21:01:24 groffer has joined
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3833 2011-07-18 21:09:05 BlueMatt has joined
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3836 2011-07-18 21:10:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ping
3837 2011-07-18 21:11:19 <luke-jr> …
3838 2011-07-18 21:11:50 <IO-> looked like packet loss to me
3839 2011-07-18 21:11:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: is there a reason why a nonstd tx sent via all the nodes in the relay.... dns wouldnt be picked up?
3840 2011-07-18 21:12:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: none I know of. I saw it in the pending block earleir
3841 2011-07-18 21:13:08 <BlueMatt> do those nodes relay all txes, or just fee-less txes?
3842 2011-07-18 21:13:13 <makomk> klikklak: tried #bitcoin-mining?
3843 2011-07-18 21:13:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: all
3844 2011-07-18 21:13:32 <BlueMatt> where is the pending block list?
3845 2011-07-18 21:13:48 <plato> hey, what are the hash inputs of a block
3846 2011-07-18 21:13:51 <luke-jr> there isn't one
3847 2011-07-18 21:14:05 BlueMattBot has joined
3848 2011-07-18 21:14:06 <luke-jr> I have it dumped to debug.log
3849 2011-07-18 21:14:07 <plato> obviously not its own hash
3850 2011-07-18 21:14:37 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: can you check again for 6611566463397450c88be99aec4e89e2b138577fbcd61ad7e6d87bf76600230f
3851 2011-07-18 21:14:46 <BlueMatt> and also 167a98b9c3d406e43eecd9f076bdfd1b068a7a7e5e0d7ad550dfaec282a963bb
3852 2011-07-18 21:15:20 agricocb has joined
3853 2011-07-18 21:15:45 <luke-jr> no sign of the second one
3854 2011-07-18 21:15:48 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3855 2011-07-18 21:15:50 denisx has joined
3856 2011-07-18 21:15:59 b4epoche is now known as b4_away
3857 2011-07-18 21:15:59 <BlueMatt> but the first one was accepted, etc and appeared fine?
3858 2011-07-18 21:16:09 <luke-jr> yeah, until some point
3859 2011-07-18 21:16:20 <kinlo> so, if I add private keys from another wallet, and the other wallet's bitcoin mines a new block, the block shows up in my wallet as if it was generated locally?
3860 2011-07-18 21:18:17 <klikklak> makomk: not yet, I'll go do that
3861 2011-07-18 21:20:02 <klikklak> makomk: thanks btw, for the tip and for the code
3862 2011-07-18 21:21:04 <gmaxwell> kinlo: MAGIC.
3863 2011-07-18 21:21:24 <gmaxwell> kinlo: your wallet precomputes addresses. New addresses are pulled from the precomputed pool.
3864 2011-07-18 21:21:40 <gmaxwell> This is so that backups are somewhat effective.
3865 2011-07-18 21:23:47 bitcoinbulletin has joined
3866 2011-07-18 21:27:33 <Diablo-D3> still wondering if 100 is enough though
3867 2011-07-18 21:28:59 <nanotube> you can run with whatever keypool size you want, Diablo-D3
3868 2011-07-18 21:29:04 <nanotube> there's a cli arg for that
3869 2011-07-18 21:29:08 <Diablo-D3> _heh_
3870 2011-07-18 21:29:14 <Diablo-D3> but that doesnt help the default
3871 2011-07-18 21:31:01 <nanotube> yea i guess adding an extra 0 or two to the default would only slow down the first startup by a few seconds... so can't hurt
3872 2011-07-18 21:31:51 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3873 2011-07-18 21:32:38 danbri has joined
3874 2011-07-18 21:32:38 <kinlo> gmaxwell: yeah, that I knew, but I just wanted to verify that there would not be any difference between the two
3875 2011-07-18 21:33:34 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3876 2011-07-18 21:34:34 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: OUCH!!!)
3877 2011-07-18 21:34:47 nhodges has joined
3878 2011-07-18 21:35:05 <TD> BlueMatt: do you remember offhand what happens if you try to spend unconfirmed change ?
3879 2011-07-18 21:36:01 bliket__ has joined
3880 2011-07-18 21:37:48 <TD> ;;seen ArtForz
3881 2011-07-18 21:37:48 <gribble> ArtForz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <ArtForz> eternal beta. hah, satoshi is secretly a google employee!
3882 2011-07-18 21:38:08 <IO-> where's he been?
3883 2011-07-18 21:38:18 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3884 2011-07-18 21:38:27 denisx has joined
3885 2011-07-18 21:38:40 <TD> maybe he got bored now he can't dominate mining anymore
3886 2011-07-18 21:38:43 <Diablo-D3> I dunno
3887 2011-07-18 21:38:46 <Diablo-D3> I miss Art
3888 2011-07-18 21:38:47 <Diablo-D3> he was cool
3889 2011-07-18 21:39:02 <IO-> I miss him to
3890 2011-07-18 21:39:52 <gmaxwell> We should send him notes telling me we miss him in the form of payments from vanity addresses.
3891 2011-07-18 21:40:12 <TD> i sure could use a testnet block or two right now
3892 2011-07-18 21:40:38 <ThomasV> maybe he's slwly selling his coins
3893 2011-07-18 21:40:39 stuhood has joined
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3896 2011-07-18 21:43:25 enquirer_ has joined
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3899 2011-07-18 21:44:23 <TD> wtf testnet difficutly is 502?
3900 2011-07-18 21:44:26 <TD> it was 16 a while ago
3901 2011-07-18 21:44:41 <TD> gah. people can't be trusted to only do cpu mining on it
3902 2011-07-18 21:44:41 <phantomcircuit> someone thought it was funny to jack it up
3903 2011-07-18 21:44:46 <phantomcircuit> and there hasn't been 2k blocks since
3904 2011-07-18 21:44:56 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3905 2011-07-18 21:44:56 denisx_ is now known as denisx
3906 2011-07-18 21:45:32 enquirer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3907 2011-07-18 21:45:33 enquirer_ is now known as enquirer
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3909 2011-07-18 21:46:37 <BlueMatt> TD: unconfirmed change is not allowed to be spent, selectcoins wont return it
3910 2011-07-18 21:46:37 <[Tycho]> They created a pool for testnet.
3911 2011-07-18 21:46:41 eianpsego has joined
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3913 2011-07-18 21:46:45 <BlueMatt> TD: so...not enough balance
3914 2011-07-18 21:46:53 <TD> ok, that's what i thought
3915 2011-07-18 21:47:02 <TD> i'm getting complaints that this is unintuitive for users of the mobile apps
3916 2011-07-18 21:47:15 <TD> and i agree, it is. IIRC bitcoin *can* resolve dependencies in the mempool
3917 2011-07-18 21:47:30 <TD> so presumably not generating such transactions is just a safety measure to try and stop long chains of transactions being potentially invalidated
3918 2011-07-18 21:47:45 <TD> [Tycho]: who is they? where is this pool?
3919 2011-07-18 21:47:56 <TD> pool for testnet seems rather counterproductive
3920 2011-07-18 21:47:59 <Joric> BlueMatt, looks like your 1.5 BTC could not be redeemed this way
3921 2011-07-18 21:48:05 <TD> the point of testnet is that anyone can mine with crazy patches
3922 2011-07-18 21:48:19 <[Tycho]> TD, "they" = "people"
3923 2011-07-18 21:48:27 <[Tycho]> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29923.0
3924 2011-07-18 21:51:31 <TD> [Tycho]: what do you think of p2pool?
3925 2011-07-18 21:52:12 <TD> if anything
3926 2011-07-18 21:52:19 rethaw has joined
3927 2011-07-18 21:53:18 <BlueMatt> Joric: it can, you just have to find a miner for it...
3928 2011-07-18 21:55:45 <CydeWeys> What is with all of the .03 fees in recent blocks?  Example: http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000000735b93c66b39c0f56515f82ab515c6820ddbbf1493abb77ec50
3929 2011-07-18 21:55:56 <CydeWeys> Or: http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000067077e05ded26cb39f1b1cd8555adcf378d36373a12123af0f6
3930 2011-07-18 21:56:04 <CydeWeys> Is someone running a version of Bitcoin with new TX fee rules?
3931 2011-07-18 21:58:23 cvk_cvk has joined
3932 2011-07-18 21:59:22 leroux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3933 2011-07-18 21:59:57 <cvk_cvk> Right now, do bitcoin clients immediately add each newly received transaction to the block they're trying to solve?
3934 2011-07-18 22:00:25 <CydeWeys> cvk_cvk: If it passes the priority rules, then yes.
3935 2011-07-18 22:00:42 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
3936 2011-07-18 22:00:47 <CydeWeys> I don't think it'll interrupt a nonce run though just to add one new transaction.
3937 2011-07-18 22:01:18 <CydeWeys> So it may not be "immediately" so much as "within a small number of seconds".
3938 2011-07-18 22:02:24 <nanotube> i think by default miners recompute the merkle tree every minute
3939 2011-07-18 22:02:26 <CydeWeys> By my calculations an average Radeon card used for mining will exhaust a complete nonce space in 14 seconds.
3940 2011-07-18 22:03:22 <cvk_cvk> CydeWeys: So a complete nonce space is all possible values of 32 bits?
3941 2011-07-18 22:03:36 <CydeWeys> 2^32 / (300*10^6) is what I did
3942 2011-07-18 22:03:54 <Eliel_> I calculated at one point that my radeon hd 5850 goes through the whole nonce space in 12 seconds
3943 2011-07-18 22:03:58 <CydeWeys> 300 MHash/s being a very average hash rate.
3944 2011-07-18 22:04:06 <cvk_cvk> Interesting.
3945 2011-07-18 22:04:08 lightcode has quit ()
3946 2011-07-18 22:04:14 <cvk_cvk> Thanks for the info.
3947 2011-07-18 22:04:39 <CydeWeys> So there would be slowdowns if you were constantly interrupting your nonce blocks to push new data.
3948 2011-07-18 22:04:40 <cvk_cvk> What is the advantage to not interrupting the nonce run?
3949 2011-07-18 22:04:51 <CydeWeys> You're clearing out your whole pipeline and putting in some new data.
3950 2011-07-18 22:04:54 <cvk_cvk> ...since every hash attempt has an equal chance of hitting a solution?
3951 2011-07-18 22:04:58 <cvk_cvk> oic
3952 2011-07-18 22:04:59 <CydeWeys> Just the usual overhead associated with context switching, stack smashing, etc.
3953 2011-07-18 22:05:02 <cvk_cvk> So purely because of overhead.
3954 2011-07-18 22:05:19 <cvk_cvk> Thanks!
3955 2011-07-18 22:06:12 <cvk_cvk> Another question: Why are two rounds of SHA-256 used instead of one?
3956 2011-07-18 22:07:05 <vegard> don't use the word "rounds"
3957 2011-07-18 22:07:08 underscor has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3958 2011-07-18 22:07:13 <plato> is it 1 to 1
3959 2011-07-18 22:07:14 <cvk_cvk> Sorry.
3960 2011-07-18 22:07:14 <vegard> it has a technical meaning
3961 2011-07-18 22:07:34 underscor has joined
3962 2011-07-18 22:07:34 <plato> couldnt you hash your data, then hash with a nonce, then another nonce like 50 times
3963 2011-07-18 22:07:41 <plato> then hash the new data
3964 2011-07-18 22:07:49 <plato> or is the nonce value part of the hash
3965 2011-07-18 22:07:50 <cvk_cvk> vegard: Do you know why double-SHA2 is used?
3966 2011-07-18 22:07:56 <cvk_cvk> SHA2-256
3967 2011-07-18 22:08:19 <cvk_cvk> Is that just part of the Merkle stuff?
3968 2011-07-18 22:08:21 <plato> i am trying to figure out what is actually hashed in thee block and what is just in the header
3969 2011-07-18 22:08:23 <vegard> to strengthen it, I suppose.
3970 2011-07-18 22:08:37 <cvk_cvk> Strengthen it? I don't think so.
3971 2011-07-18 22:08:39 <vegard> there may be a different reason too: to enable pools
3972 2011-07-18 22:08:58 <vegard> because the pool can give clients work to do without enabling them to steal the reward
3973 2011-07-18 22:09:18 <forrestv> how does double-sha do that ... that makes no sense
3974 2011-07-18 22:09:34 <cvk_cvk> vegard: I don't think that's how pools make their clients do work.
3975 2011-07-18 22:09:46 <cvk_cvk> I think they give them problems of much lower difficulty.
3976 2011-07-18 22:09:48 <Eliel_> the pools are not the reason. Satoshi got surprised by pools
3977 2011-07-18 22:10:01 <cvk_cvk> ...and then bank on one of the clients randomly solving the problem with much higher difficulty.
3978 2011-07-18 22:10:10 <vegard> the point is that the pool knows some data which the miners don't
3979 2011-07-18 22:10:11 <forrestv> i think that it is indeed to strengthen it
3980 2011-07-18 22:10:23 <copumpkin> it's not much of a strengthening measure
3981 2011-07-18 22:10:27 <vegard> the miners only knows the hash of this data (i.e. the block header)
3982 2011-07-18 22:10:31 <plato> cvk_cvk: i do know that the reward address is included in the data the pool sends a client
3983 2011-07-18 22:10:34 <cvk_cvk> forrestv: What does "strengthen" mean? Just 2x the computation?
3984 2011-07-18 22:10:38 <Eliel_> my intuition tells me that even if SHA256 were to weaken, it being used twice will keep it somewhat stronger.
3985 2011-07-18 22:10:39 <plato> so the client cant steal the block
3986 2011-07-18 22:10:41 <cvk_cvk> plato: That is my understanding too.
3987 2011-07-18 22:11:13 <cvk_cvk> Eliel_: oic. That makes sense to me.
3988 2011-07-18 22:12:17 <plato> on block explorer each block is listed with its hash
3989 2011-07-18 22:12:26 <lianj> cvk_cvk: equal length for the second.
3990 2011-07-18 22:12:31 <plato> clearly the hash of a block cannot be an input to the hash function
3991 2011-07-18 22:12:47 <plato> so it must not be included in the hashed data
3992 2011-07-18 22:13:21 <plato> is everything else included? timestamp, current difficulty, tx, nonce, previous hash, etc
3993 2011-07-18 22:13:38 <cvk_cvk> lianj: Sorry, what?
3994 2011-07-18 22:13:40 <plato> ir is something else not part of the hashed material
3995 2011-07-18 22:13:40 MetaV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3996 2011-07-18 22:14:04 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
3997 2011-07-18 22:14:50 <gmaxwell> plato: the hash of a block isn't even in the block, it's in the next block.
3998 2011-07-18 22:14:51 <lianj> plato: read the wiki, the block header is hashed
3999 2011-07-18 22:15:08 <lianj> cvk_cvk: double-sha
4000 2011-07-18 22:15:57 <bliket__> [Tycho]: hello?
4001 2011-07-18 22:17:54 <cvk_cvk> lianj: "equal length for the second." "double-sha" <- still don't understand what you mean :(
4002 2011-07-18 22:19:04 magn3ts_ is now known as magn3ts
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4004 2011-07-18 22:20:38 magn3ts is now known as _____________
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4008 2011-07-18 22:27:30 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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4011 2011-07-18 22:28:37 denisx has joined
4012 2011-07-18 22:31:00 <Joric> hehe wxformbuilder won't obey coding standards, i see tabs
4013 2011-07-18 22:31:28 freewil has joined
4014 2011-07-18 22:34:16 <erus`> tabs FTW
4015 2011-07-18 22:34:25 <erus`> FUCK 4 SPACES!"
4016 2011-07-18 22:34:30 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
4017 2011-07-18 22:34:38 <Joric> that was brave
4018 2011-07-18 22:35:46 Ramokk has joined
4019 2011-07-18 22:36:19 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4020 2011-07-18 22:37:42 <upb> o_O why do you use spaces instead of tabs
4021 2011-07-18 22:39:28 <Joric> i've seen it somewhere
4022 2011-07-18 22:39:38 <Joric> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Development_process "Please read and follow coding.txt (link offline) for a description of the bitcoin coding style."
4023 2011-07-18 22:39:38 Akiron has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4024 2011-07-18 22:45:57 <upb> it doesnt explain it tho
4025 2011-07-18 22:46:11 spirals has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4026 2011-07-18 22:46:35 <gim> cause the correct mix of tabs and spaces is too complex for both the average joe and the average editor
4027 2011-07-18 22:47:34 <gim> make it space only and its simple enough for everyone
4028 2011-07-18 22:48:00 <WakiMiko> emacs default settings are retarded
4029 2011-07-18 22:48:03 <WakiMiko> just saying
4030 2011-07-18 22:48:37 <gim> i agree (even though i use emacs for coding)
4031 2011-07-18 22:49:40 <Incitatus> hey how do I authenticate my PGP
4032 2011-07-18 22:49:42 <Incitatus> or w/e
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4060 2011-07-18 23:19:31 <Zagitta> ;;seen AndyBr
4061 2011-07-18 23:19:31 <gribble> AndyBr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <AndyBr> rather not rape my laptop
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4065 2011-07-18 23:23:14 philip__ is now known as eianpseg
4066 2011-07-18 23:23:18 eianpseg is now known as eianpsego
4067 2011-07-18 23:24:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: whats the status of 0.3.24 mac?
4068 2011-07-18 23:25:47 <abishai> guys are the BTC price data available somewhere in csv, JSON or some other similar format?
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4071 2011-07-18 23:28:26 <MagicalTux> abishai: I guess so
4072 2011-07-18 23:28:45 <MagicalTux> abishai: most exchanges provide those as json, ie. http://mtgox.com/api/0/data/ticker.php
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4074 2011-07-18 23:29:41 <abishai> the above is helpful but what Im looking for is historical data aswell, like 1 month back
4075 2011-07-18 23:29:56 <diki> ;;bc,stats
4076 2011-07-18 23:29:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136965 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 122 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 17 hours, 37 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1697141.55038735
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4081 2011-07-18 23:32:41 <Eliel_> abishai: I'd suggest to ask the owner of the http://www.bitcoincharts.com/ website.
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4083 2011-07-18 23:33:44 <Eliel_> oh, looks like there's a jsonrpc interface for that already
4084 2011-07-18 23:34:58 <Eliel_> oh wait, not jsonrpc. it's dynamic csv
4085 2011-07-18 23:35:28 <abishai> hmm yes just spotted it, cool :)
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4087 2011-07-18 23:35:59 <asuk> why so many addresses in my client? they appearing by itself
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4091 2011-07-18 23:37:35 <abishai> after each transaction you make, a new address will appear at the client, older ones are valid too though, its better to use a new one for privacy
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4098 2011-07-18 23:40:53 <asuk> ok. thanks
4099 2011-07-18 23:41:28 somuchwin is now known as somuchfail
4100 2011-07-18 23:42:05 <Eliel_> asuk: using a different one for each sender/transaction also helps identifying who paid you and for what.
4101 2011-07-18 23:42:28 <Eliel_> assuming you name the addresses sensibly
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4115 2011-07-18 23:56:49 <BlueMatt> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.0
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