1 2011-07-19 00:01:24 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2 2011-07-19 00:01:37 <Joric> BlueMatt, it's not fair, he didn't get them himself, i doubt it would work at all
3 2011-07-19 00:01:47 <WakiMiko> i can see a bitcoin-based notpron becoming quite popular
4 2011-07-19 00:02:12 <BlueMatt> Joric: meh, I saw a transaction that did spend them, ie he did get them himself
5 2011-07-19 00:02:24 <BlueMatt> he just didnt get that tx confirmed
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8 2011-07-19 00:03:42 <Joric> BlueMatt, what if it was a badly formed transaction?
9 2011-07-19 00:03:54 <BlueMatt> it wasnt, it was accepted by a node
10 2011-07-19 00:04:07 <BlueMatt> ie it was checked just like it would have been if IsStandard wasnt on pools
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13 2011-07-19 00:05:32 <BlueMatt> Joric: meh, the next one isnt so strictly bitcoin-based, more general tech skills
14 2011-07-19 00:05:44 <BlueMatt> so donate and get ready :)
15 2011-07-19 00:06:42 <upb> hahaha really tricky
16 2011-07-19 00:07:12 theorb has joined
17 2011-07-19 00:07:48 <osmosis> if I am running the bitcoin client, but not mining, am I strengthening the bitcoin network?
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20 2011-07-19 00:07:58 <BlueMatt> if you are running a version at least 0.3.24, yes
21 2011-07-19 00:08:09 <BlueMatt> esp if you are accepting incoming connections
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23 2011-07-19 00:08:20 <BlueMatt> so please, forward your ports and keep your node open, it does help :)
24 2011-07-19 00:08:52 <osmosis> BlueMatt, how am I helping?
25 2011-07-19 00:09:15 <BlueMatt> osmosis: every node checks and forwards transactions and block to their peers
26 2011-07-19 00:09:17 leroux has joined
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28 2011-07-19 00:09:31 <BlueMatt> the biggest help is that there are bugs in pre-.24 clients which are causing some nasty effects
29 2011-07-19 00:09:44 <osmosis> is a check a confirmation?
30 2011-07-19 00:09:50 <BlueMatt> so the more .24 nodes we have accepting incoming connections, the much much better the network is
31 2011-07-19 00:09:53 <BlueMatt> no, its not
32 2011-07-19 00:10:01 <Zagitta> i have a feeling compiling bitcoind is going to be a pain for me considering i'm not used to linux :<
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35 2011-07-19 00:10:17 <BlueMatt> checking and forwarding txes is only a future help, currently its not a huge advantage, but in the long-term it will become a big help
36 2011-07-19 00:10:24 kish has joined
37 2011-07-19 00:10:38 <BlueMatt> but the pre-.24 problems are actually causing real-world clearly visible problems right now
38 2011-07-19 00:10:55 <nanotube> BlueMatt: like what?
39 2011-07-19 00:11:04 <nanotube> connectivity to other nodes stuff?
40 2011-07-19 00:11:16 <BlueMatt> nanotube: see http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21767.msg373830#msg373830
41 2011-07-19 00:11:59 <BlueMatt> several pools have reported stale blocks
42 2011-07-19 00:12:08 <BlueMatt> ie rejected blocks which just wastes work
43 2011-07-19 00:12:24 <BlueMatt> which is not good for obvious reasons
44 2011-07-19 00:12:34 <nanotube> aah i see. guess the larger average block size is triggering the old code?
45 2011-07-19 00:12:39 <BlueMatt> yep
46 2011-07-19 00:12:56 <BlueMatt> been a problem for a while, which is why we pushed a .24 instead of going to .4
47 2011-07-19 00:13:27 <Zagitta> so that's also why Eligius had major issues with orphaned blocks?
48 2011-07-19 00:13:31 <Zagitta> a while ago
49 2011-07-19 00:14:06 <nanotube> well, it probably can't hurt to extend the 0.3 tree a few more releases with the bugfixes etc... just for the people who aren't up for running the funked-up new wallet code in 0.4 right away :)
50 2011-07-19 00:15:01 Teslah has joined
51 2011-07-19 00:15:42 <BlueMatt> which was the original plan
52 2011-07-19 00:15:45 <BlueMatt> Zagitta: yes
53 2011-07-19 00:15:46 <BlueMatt> that is one of the reports I mentioned ;)
54 2011-07-19 00:16:10 <BlueMatt> nanotube: well atm we dont really have a real need to push any bug fixes
55 2011-07-19 00:16:16 JRWR has joined
56 2011-07-19 00:16:22 <BlueMatt> there is one minor gui bug with adding new addresses but nothing major afaik
57 2011-07-19 00:16:41 <BlueMatt> plus wallet crypto is pretty stable as-is, its just wallet import/export and testing and we are ready to push .4
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59 2011-07-19 00:22:17 <nanotube> mmm
60 2011-07-19 00:22:42 <BlueMatt> 0.3.24 for mac out now, PLEASE UPGRADE: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27187.msg377493#msg377493
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62 2011-07-19 00:30:15 <Zagitta> Bluematt: is the "Development libaries" package sufficient for compiling bitcoind?
63 2011-07-19 00:30:29 <Zagitta> *in the centos repo
64 2011-07-19 00:30:57 <BlueMatt> no, youll need boost, openssl, wx2.9, etc
65 2011-07-19 00:31:04 <BlueMatt> read build-unix.txt in doc
66 2011-07-19 00:31:11 <BlueMatt> and adapt from ubuntu/debian
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69 2011-07-19 00:33:01 <Zagitta> i thought wx was removed from bitcoin_d_
70 2011-07-19 00:33:08 <BlueMatt> oh yea, sorry dont need wx then
71 2011-07-19 00:33:16 <Zagitta> k thx
72 2011-07-19 00:33:17 <denisx> bitcoin 0.3.23 runs fine on OSX 10.7
73 2011-07-19 00:33:40 <copumpkin> except for not supporting command+h
74 2011-07-19 00:33:42 * copumpkin grrs
75 2011-07-19 00:33:50 <denisx> ah nice, so I can test 0.3.24 now
76 2011-07-19 00:33:59 <denisx> haven't seen it....
77 2011-07-19 00:34:00 <copumpkin> it doesn't support it on any version of os x, mind you
78 2011-07-19 00:34:17 <copumpkin> I've never actually encountered a program where that didn't work
79 2011-07-19 00:34:24 <copumpkin> except for old versions of photoshop that rebound the key
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82 2011-07-19 00:36:42 <denisx_> ok, 0.3.24 also runs fine on OSX 10.7
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84 2011-07-19 00:37:16 <BlueMatt> yay
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110 2011-07-19 01:17:53 <b4epoche> yea, I do most of the CocoaBitcoin dev on 10.7
111 2011-07-19 01:17:57 <b4epoche> everything works fine
112 2011-07-19 01:18:47 <cuddlefish> well, pycoin's using a plugin system now
113 2011-07-19 01:19:21 <b4epoche> what's the best way to tell what 'version' of the core code I'm using?
114 2011-07-19 01:19:46 <cuddlefish> b4epoche: there should be something in a header
115 2011-07-19 01:20:03 <b4epoche> yea, I suspected that...
116 2011-07-19 01:21:01 Castor_ has quit ()
117 2011-07-19 01:21:42 <b4epoche> I remember seeing it somewhere but can't find it now
118 2011-07-19 01:22:47 <cuddlefish> grep?
119 2011-07-19 01:23:03 <b4epoche> not sure what to grep for
120 2011-07-19 01:23:13 <cuddlefish> the current version number
121 2011-07-19 01:23:56 <BlueMatt> grep for VERSION iirc
122 2011-07-19 01:24:12 <b4epoche> that gives 475 results ;-)
123 2011-07-19 01:24:18 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
124 2011-07-19 01:24:38 <b4epoche> okay, not matching case makes it okay
125 2011-07-19 01:24:39 magn3ts_ has joined
126 2011-07-19 01:24:45 <b4epoche> s/not//
127 2011-07-19 01:25:11 Beremat has joined
128 2011-07-19 01:26:06 <cuddlefish> Woohoo
129 2011-07-19 01:26:10 <cuddlefish> I can save + load keys
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134 2011-07-19 01:28:43 <ewal> how/when does bitcoind first encrypt a wallet when you run it? the GUI has a menu option for it, I believe. is the same process triggered with an RPC for bitcoind or does it happen automatically based on an environment variable as in early versions of the feature?
135 2011-07-19 01:29:53 <cuddlefish> read the commit diff?
136 2011-07-19 01:30:11 <StanleyBeale> I am selling bitcoins for $13.20/BTC you can pay with paypal or dwolla, if interested pm me.
137 2011-07-19 01:30:38 zapnap has joined
138 2011-07-19 01:31:24 <BlueMatt> StanleyBeale: NOT IN -dev, try -otc
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144 2011-07-19 01:38:40 <sacarlson> any mining pools want to try experimenting with an expermental merge mining chain to prepare and learn for namecoin's new method?
145 2011-07-19 01:39:44 <sacarlson> I plan to try incorporate merge mining in MultiCoin and create a new test block chain to test it
146 2011-07-19 01:39:52 <jgarzik> sacarlson: URL for email?
147 2011-07-19 01:40:01 <copumpkin> sacarlson: you should approach Eleuthria in #btcguild :)
148 2011-07-19 01:40:05 <copumpkin> I wouldn't mind mining both
149 2011-07-19 01:41:37 <sacarlson> jgarzik: my url for Multicoin is http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.msg300830#msg300830
150 2011-07-19 01:41:52 osmosis has joined
151 2011-07-19 01:42:15 <sacarlson> jgarzik: the multicoin freenode #multicoin
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153 2011-07-19 01:43:17 <sacarlson> copumpkin: this merge mining is just a precursor to namecoin as in expermental
154 2011-07-19 01:43:30 <copumpkin> ah
155 2011-07-19 01:43:36 <jgarzik> sacarlson: oh. I thought you had implemented the chain-sharing stuff TD documented at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_Chains
156 2011-07-19 01:43:42 <jgarzik> sacarlson: far more efficient and ideal
157 2011-07-19 01:43:48 klikklak_ has joined
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159 2011-07-19 01:43:57 <sacarlson> jgarzik: well we now have the code
160 2011-07-19 01:44:21 <jgarzik> sacarlson: code for TD's proposal? not AFAICS
161 2011-07-19 01:44:22 <sacarlson> jgarzik: using https://github.com/vinced/namecoin/blob/mergedmine/doc/README_merged-mining.md
162 2011-07-19 01:45:21 klikklak has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
163 2011-07-19 01:45:35 <sacarlson> jgarzik: I plan to start implementing tests using this and if it works I'm hoping to go one more step with links into bitcoin mining or even namecoin miners as the parant for the test chain
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165 2011-07-19 01:46:31 <sacarlson> jgarzik: is there code for this TD's proposal?
166 2011-07-19 01:47:04 <Joric> "What is WEEDS currency" he... hehe
167 2011-07-19 01:47:23 arthurb has joined
168 2011-07-19 01:47:27 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: afaik, no, but I was under the impression someone had said that namecoin used it
169 2011-07-19 01:47:34 <sacarlson> Joric: weeds is just another test chain as stated
170 2011-07-19 01:48:17 klikklak has joined
171 2011-07-19 01:48:41 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well I'm now looking at the branch at namecoin of commitish ffb5ff5595cbb7929bc33b7e49ca60778c8d1816
172 2011-07-19 01:48:48 <Joric> i want entirely python client https://github.com/joric/brutus
173 2011-07-19 01:48:57 <BlueMatt> well, Ive seen a doc that described how namecoin *would* implement it
174 2011-07-19 01:49:06 <BlueMatt> but I dont know if it has been used even if it was implemented
175 2011-07-19 01:49:17 <cuddlefish> Joric: i'm doing that, kthx
176 2011-07-19 01:49:19 <BlueMatt> but it was oddly specific, so it seemed like it was implemented
177 2011-07-19 01:50:07 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: they have planed to implement it in a few months for namecoin https://github.com/vinced/namecoin
178 2011-07-19 01:50:08 <Joric> cuddlefish, where?
179 2011-07-19 01:50:20 <cuddlefish> Joric: ~/devel/pycoin
180 2011-07-19 01:50:22 <cuddlefish> :P
181 2011-07-19 01:50:25 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I just plan to test it sooner
182 2011-07-19 01:50:26 <BlueMatt> ah, well nvm then
183 2011-07-19 01:50:38 <cuddlefish> Joric: right now I have keygen and all that
184 2011-07-19 01:50:50 copumpkin is now known as Godwin
185 2011-07-19 01:51:06 <cuddlefish> working on networking
186 2011-07-19 01:51:12 Godwin is now known as copumpkin
187 2011-07-19 01:52:09 <Joric> all of them can do something, but this one works :)
188 2011-07-19 01:53:01 <Joric> i've even seen irc and dnsseed bootstrapping somewhere
189 2011-07-19 01:53:25 <cuddlefish> Well
190 2011-07-19 01:53:40 <Joric> here https://github.com/kylegibson/python-bitcoin-client unfortunately it can't do anything else
191 2011-07-19 01:53:40 <Zagitta> how much of this diff should i apply? http://davids.webmaster.com/~davids/bitcoin-4diff.txt I remember someone saying hub mode is bad...=
192 2011-07-19 01:54:04 <cuddlefish> hmm
193 2011-07-19 01:54:14 <cuddlefish> what's Bitcoin's wallet.dat format in berkeleydb
194 2011-07-19 01:54:31 <doublec> BlueMatt: it has been implemented, but not yet used
195 2011-07-19 01:54:35 <doublec> BlueMatt: it's still being tested
196 2011-07-19 01:54:39 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: read the source
197 2011-07-19 01:54:47 <doublec> BlueMatt: and a block number for when the switchover occurs is being debated
198 2011-07-19 01:54:48 <BlueMatt> now everyone is conflicting each other...
199 2011-07-19 01:54:51 <Joric> cuddlefish, bitcointools, yeah
200 2011-07-19 01:54:54 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|read the source luke
201 2011-07-19 01:55:02 <BlueMatt> whatever, I was just reporting what I had been told
202 2011-07-19 01:55:54 <doublec> BlueMatt: current namecoin trunk contains the implementation
203 2011-07-19 01:56:11 <Joric> cuddlefish, it's almost documented, https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/blob/master/NOTES.txt :)
204 2011-07-19 01:56:26 <cuddlefish> Oh.
205 2011-07-19 01:56:29 <Joric> wallet.dat serialization notes: Berkely DB BTREE file (key-value pairs)
206 2011-07-19 01:56:30 <cuddlefish> it's multi-DB
207 2011-07-19 01:56:31 <cuddlefish> per
208 2011-07-19 01:56:33 <cuddlefish> *derp
209 2011-07-19 01:56:34 <sacarlson> doublec: yes I just want to play with that implementation sooner to test and help debug
210 2011-07-19 02:03:21 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
211 2011-07-19 02:04:08 <cuddlefish> woo, I can work on testnet and prodnet now
212 2011-07-19 02:07:09 <cuddlefish> and the plugin-based keystore works too
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217 2011-07-19 02:19:46 <Zagitta> y u no want to patch! goddamit
218 2011-07-19 02:21:14 magn3ts_ is now known as magn3ts
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222 2011-07-19 02:25:05 <lumos> #bitcoin-dinosaurs
223 2011-07-19 02:25:09 <lumos> be there or be triangular
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226 2011-07-19 02:28:36 <b4epoche> what happened to pwalletMain->mapKeys in 0.3.24 ?
227 2011-07-19 02:29:11 <b4epoche> pwalletMain->cs_KeyStore ?
228 2011-07-19 02:29:23 <upb> cs is a critical section:)
229 2011-07-19 02:30:52 <b4epoche> s/pwalletMain->mapKeys/pwalletMain->cs_mapKeys
230 2011-07-19 02:30:56 <b4epoche> w/e
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247 2011-07-19 02:45:24 <cuddlefish> https://github.com/nathanieltheis/Pycoin/tree/master/plugins
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269 2011-07-19 03:11:37 <marvinm_> ;;bc,stats
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271 2011-07-19 03:11:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 136993 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 94 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 13 hours, 37 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1700056.97894053
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286 2011-07-19 03:24:10 <cuddlefish> Which way is the packet type padded?
287 2011-07-19 03:24:27 <cuddlefish> know it's NUL-padded, but right or left?
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294 2011-07-19 03:34:25 <cuddlefish> Oh god
295 2011-07-19 03:34:33 <cuddlefish> why do we mix endiannesss
296 2011-07-19 03:34:36 <cuddlefish> that's so wrong
297 2011-07-19 03:34:54 <rethaw> where?
298 2011-07-19 03:35:05 <cuddlefish> the protoco
299 2011-07-19 03:35:32 <cuddlefish> Almost all integers are encoded in little endian. Only IP or port number are encoded big endian.
300 2011-07-19 03:36:12 <rethaw> heh
301 2011-07-19 03:36:39 Backburn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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303 2011-07-19 03:37:27 <cuddlefish> yaay, construct
304 2011-07-19 03:37:55 <jrmithdobbs> ;;seen,gmaxwell
305 2011-07-19 03:37:56 <gribble> Error: "seen,gmaxwell" is not a valid command.
306 2011-07-19 03:38:07 <jrmithdobbs> i hate you gribble
307 2011-07-19 03:38:11 <jrmithdobbs> and your stupid syntax
308 2011-07-19 03:38:22 <cuddlefish> ;;seen gmaxwell
309 2011-07-19 03:38:22 <gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 hours, 23 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> plato: the hash of a block isn't even in the block, it's in the next block.
310 2011-07-19 03:38:33 <jrmithdobbs> i still hate you gribble
311 2011-07-19 03:38:36 <jrmithdobbs> cuddlefish: ;p
312 2011-07-19 03:38:57 <jrmithdobbs> ;;seen gmaxwell_
313 2011-07-19 03:38:57 <gribble> I have not seen gmaxwell_.
314 2011-07-19 03:39:06 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
315 2011-07-19 03:39:56 zapnap__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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317 2011-07-19 03:41:07 <gribble> jrmithdobbs ;_;
318 2011-07-19 03:43:42 brunner has joined
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320 2011-07-19 03:45:09 zapnap has joined
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322 2011-07-19 03:45:53 <rethaw> jrmithdobbs: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble#General_commands
323 2011-07-19 03:46:06 Joric has joined
324 2011-07-19 03:48:12 <Joric> github needs it's own social platform :) github+
325 2011-07-19 03:49:50 zamgo_ has joined
326 2011-07-19 03:50:56 <Joric> oh there's a 'watch' button
327 2011-07-19 03:53:25 zapnap_ has joined
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331 2011-07-19 03:55:28 * Zagitta pats gribblle
332 2011-07-19 03:55:58 briareus has joined
333 2011-07-19 03:55:58 briareus has quit (Changing host)
334 2011-07-19 03:55:58 briareus has joined
335 2011-07-19 03:56:39 <Zagitta> anyone that can help me with building bitcoind? i think i've gotten all the dependencies but for some reason it still can't find openssl :s
336 2011-07-19 03:57:06 somuchfail has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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338 2011-07-19 03:57:33 <Joric> Zagitta, windows seven?
339 2011-07-19 03:57:42 zapnap_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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359 2011-07-19 04:21:08 <luke-jr> ]bc,stats
360 2011-07-19 04:21:46 <luke-jr> CMON GRIBBLE
361 2011-07-19 04:23:09 <rethaw> he'll learn
362 2011-07-19 04:26:18 <bliket_> juke-jr
363 2011-07-19 04:26:24 <bliket_> dont you run some big thing
364 2011-07-19 04:26:43 <cuddlefish> eligius.st
365 2011-07-19 04:26:48 <bliket_> oh yeah
366 2011-07-19 04:27:18 unclemantis has joined
367 2011-07-19 04:27:20 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
368 2011-07-19 04:27:53 <unclemantis> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28
369 2011-07-19 04:28:37 <StanleyBeale> I am selling bitcoins for $13.85/BTC you can pay with paypal, if interested pm me.
370 2011-07-19 04:28:39 marvinm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
371 2011-07-19 04:28:50 <unclemantis> I was looking up up a hash 160 is and i came across https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
372 2011-07-19 04:29:04 <unclemantis> StanleyBeale please go to #bitcoin-bit
373 2011-07-19 04:29:06 <unclemantis> StanleyBeale please go to #bitcoin-pit
374 2011-07-19 04:29:20 <unclemantis> and it says "A Bitcoin Address is a 160-bit hash of the public portion of a public/private"
375 2011-07-19 04:29:48 <jgarzik> yep
376 2011-07-19 04:30:00 <unclemantis> but on http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28 it says that public key is the adddress
377 2011-07-19 04:30:25 <unclemantis> but when i look at the bitcoin client it says 1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28 is the address
378 2011-07-19 04:30:27 <unclemantis> so what is it?
379 2011-07-19 04:30:40 <unclemantis> is the hash160 the address or is the public key the address?
380 2011-07-19 04:30:51 <unclemantis> is it psunonomous?
381 2011-07-19 04:30:57 Fnar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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383 2011-07-19 04:32:06 HarryS has joined
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385 2011-07-19 04:33:01 <unclemantis> jgarzik?
386 2011-07-19 04:35:16 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
387 2011-07-19 04:35:46 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: a bitcoin address
388 2011-07-19 04:36:07 <cuddlefish> is a version byte + a 160-bit hash of the key + a 4-byte checksum
389 2011-07-19 04:36:18 <cuddlefish> and then that's base58-encodede
390 2011-07-19 04:37:11 <unclemantis> but the base58 encode is refered to as the Bitcoin address both in blockexploer and the wallet client.
391 2011-07-19 04:37:24 <unclemantis> do you understand why i am getting confused?
392 2011-07-19 04:38:02 <jgarzik> no
393 2011-07-19 04:38:06 <jgarzik> it is what cuddlefish just said
394 2011-07-19 04:38:48 <unclemantis> so 1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28 is not the address. 82dc60f75788fe0fc4c7a75768ae7e3f8e4e2231 is the address
395 2011-07-19 04:38:59 Gonzago has joined
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397 2011-07-19 04:39:29 <jgarzik> unclemantis: that is the opposite of what cuddlefish said
398 2011-07-19 04:39:37 <jgarzik> unclemantis: 1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28 is a bitcoin address
399 2011-07-19 04:40:05 <jgarzik> unclemantis: the wiki you're micro-parsing is a simplified summary
400 2011-07-19 04:40:12 <unclemantis> then why is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address saying that the hash is the bitcoin address
401 2011-07-19 04:40:26 <jgarzik> unclemantis: because that is _basically_ true
402 2011-07-19 04:40:39 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses is less stupid
403 2011-07-19 04:41:14 <unclemantis> reading
404 2011-07-19 04:41:19 <unclemantis> thanks cuddlefish fish
405 2011-07-19 04:41:59 unclemantis has quit ()
406 2011-07-19 04:43:27 unclemantis has joined
407 2011-07-19 04:43:31 <unclemantis> stupid pos
408 2011-07-19 04:43:35 <unclemantis> i am back
409 2011-07-19 04:45:06 <unclemantis> can i generate a bitcoin address from a public key or the other way around?
410 2011-07-19 04:45:31 <cuddlefish> yes
411 2011-07-19 04:45:35 <cuddlefish> well
412 2011-07-19 04:45:41 <unclemantis> both ways?
413 2011-07-19 04:45:42 <cuddlefish> you can go address > keyhash
414 2011-07-19 04:45:48 <cuddlefish> not address -> key
415 2011-07-19 04:46:00 quellhorst has joined
416 2011-07-19 04:46:42 <unclemantis> 1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28 is the key?
417 2011-07-19 04:47:06 <unclemantis> or is that the keyhash which is referenced as the address?
418 2011-07-19 04:47:13 * unclemantis is going to get slugged. he has a feeling
419 2011-07-19 04:47:23 <cuddlefish> that would be the address
420 2011-07-19 04:47:54 <unclemantis> so what is the key?
421 2011-07-19 04:48:22 <cuddlefish> hash of the key is \x82\xdc`\xf7W\x88\xfe\x0f\xc4\xc7\xa7Wh\xae~?\x8eN"1
422 2011-07-19 04:48:37 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
423 2011-07-19 04:50:15 <unclemantis> ok, so what is the key then?
424 2011-07-19 04:50:19 <cuddlefish> don't know
425 2011-07-19 04:50:26 <cuddlefish> that's not in the address
426 2011-07-19 04:50:34 <unclemantis> we have the address, and the key hash, so what is the key?
427 2011-07-19 04:50:39 <cuddlefish> we don't know!
428 2011-07-19 04:50:50 <unclemantis> ok, so what is the deal with this? 0448390ea5a1a7532a48d7304c592244b9c7f97fbcdfdf529dc70c1525bebdfd5dbd75fb2f49554e77788d4422544f3f34388ccbfda5d3c472b04656f3da96a39b
429 2011-07-19 04:50:51 <cuddlefish> if we did, it'd be a crappy hash function
430 2011-07-19 04:50:57 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: that's the public key.
431 2011-07-19 04:51:07 <unclemantis> so is that THE KEY?
432 2011-07-19 04:51:09 <cuddlefish> that address has been involved in a transaction apparently.
433 2011-07-19 04:51:12 <cuddlefish> yes
434 2011-07-19 04:51:20 <cuddlefish> transactions contain the entire pubkey
435 2011-07-19 04:51:58 <unclemantis> but the public key is unknown, just the bitcoin address and the public key hash?
436 2011-07-19 04:52:15 <unclemantis> and the public key hash is a part of the address plus some other stuff in a base58 encoded string?
437 2011-07-19 04:52:30 <cuddlefish> yep
438 2011-07-19 04:52:31 <cuddlefish> no
439 2011-07-19 04:52:32 <nanotube> unclemantis: public key becomes known once that address spends some coins at least once.
440 2011-07-19 04:52:42 vortex has joined
441 2011-07-19 04:53:07 <nanotube> was that 'no' to me, cuddlefish ?
442 2011-07-19 04:54:28 <cuddlefish> nanotube: no
443 2011-07-19 04:54:38 <unclemantis> and the only thing that stores the public key is the network?
444 2011-07-19 04:54:42 <cuddlefish> yes
445 2011-07-19 04:54:54 <cuddlefish> and the sending client, obviously
446 2011-07-19 04:54:59 <unclemantis> but a public/private key is generated but by the client, right?
447 2011-07-19 04:55:10 <cuddlefish> yup
448 2011-07-19 04:55:51 <unclemantis> but only the base58 address is known or needs to be known to send bitcoin, right?
449 2011-07-19 04:55:56 <cuddlefish> yes.
450 2011-07-19 04:56:21 <unclemantis> how is the full public key generated?
451 2011-07-19 04:56:25 RobinPKR has joined
452 2011-07-19 04:57:56 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: ECDSA's key generatio
453 2011-07-19 04:58:23 <unclemantis> what i am getting at is this
454 2011-07-19 04:58:42 <unclemantis> say i run a python application such as vanitygen
455 2011-07-19 04:58:49 <cuddlefish> yep
456 2011-07-19 04:59:01 <unclemantis> it gives me an address and a privkey
457 2011-07-19 04:59:09 <unclemantis> i send bitcoin to the public address
458 2011-07-19 04:59:11 <cuddlefish> yep
459 2011-07-19 04:59:17 <unclemantis> i import the privkey into a wallet
460 2011-07-19 04:59:30 <unclemantis> i let the client catch up to the network
461 2011-07-19 04:59:37 <unclemantis> bitcoin appears in my wallet
462 2011-07-19 04:59:39 <unclemantis> so
463 2011-07-19 04:59:41 <cuddlefish> yep
464 2011-07-19 04:59:50 <unclemantis> where does this huge public key comefrom?
465 2011-07-19 04:59:58 <unclemantis> you say it is generated but i don't see where
466 2011-07-19 05:00:08 Beccara has joined
467 2011-07-19 05:00:09 <cuddlefish> elliptic curve math
468 2011-07-19 05:00:32 <cuddlefish> the public key is a function of the private key
469 2011-07-19 05:00:44 zapnap_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
470 2011-07-19 05:01:13 <devrandom> cuddlefish: nanotube is right
471 2011-07-19 05:01:27 zapnap has joined
472 2011-07-19 05:01:31 <cuddlefish> devrandom: ... what?
473 2011-07-19 05:01:49 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
474 2011-07-19 05:01:56 <unclemantis> is the public key even required to be published or known to complete a transaction?
475 2011-07-19 05:01:59 <devrandom> to spend an output, you have to supply the pubkey in the signature script
476 2011-07-19 05:02:09 <cuddlefish> yeah, I never disagreed...
477 2011-07-19 05:02:11 <unclemantis> or does it just need to be known to confirm a transaction happened?
478 2011-07-19 05:02:32 <devrandom> ok
479 2011-07-19 05:02:39 <unclemantis> the public key is the proof that the transaction occured??
480 2011-07-19 05:02:45 <cuddlefish> no..
481 2011-07-19 05:02:46 zapnap has joined
482 2011-07-19 05:02:53 <cuddlefish> ;;google public key cryptography
483 2011-07-19 05:02:53 <gribble> Public-key cryptography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography>; RSA Laboratories - 2.1.1 What is public-key cryptography?: <http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2165>; How PGP works: <http://www.pgpi.org/doc/pgpintro/>
484 2011-07-19 05:03:00 <cuddlefish> Transactions are signed.
485 2011-07-19 05:04:08 <rethaw> cuddlefish: sorry I was away, I was just agreeing with you that no security implementation can be perfect
486 2011-07-19 05:04:33 <rethaw> and there are reasons yubikey is adopted more easily that smart cards would be for mtgox, the driverlessness being one of them
487 2011-07-19 05:04:40 <cuddlefish> wrong channel :P
488 2011-07-19 05:04:56 Beccara_ has joined
489 2011-07-19 05:05:02 <rethaw> well, we're talking about pki in here so its all the same to me :0
490 2011-07-19 05:05:05 <unclemantis> apparently :P
491 2011-07-19 05:07:00 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
492 2011-07-19 05:07:13 <unclemantis> is the public key, or knoledge of the public key after the first transaction even needed?
493 2011-07-19 05:07:15 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
494 2011-07-19 05:08:29 quellhorst has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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497 2011-07-19 05:12:19 <unclemantis> is the knoledge of the generated public key even needed or just the base58 if you wish to send bitcoin
498 2011-07-19 05:12:45 Beccara has joined
499 2011-07-19 05:13:10 <unclemantis> and private key if available can be confirmed by the base58 string?
500 2011-07-19 05:17:27 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
501 2011-07-19 05:17:54 Backburn has joined
502 2011-07-19 05:20:17 <unclemantis> question
503 2011-07-19 05:21:48 <unclemantis> when a transaction for say 1 btc is performed from a public/private pair that has a balance of say 6. 1 btc is sent to a public address that belongs to someone and the a new public/private key is generated and the balance of 5 is sent to the new public address?
504 2011-07-19 05:31:01 <unclemantis> hello?
505 2011-07-19 05:31:04 * unclemantis is being ignored
506 2011-07-19 05:31:06 <unclemantis> :P
507 2011-07-19 05:31:33 Joric has joined
508 2011-07-19 05:31:46 <rethaw> is that a question?
509 2011-07-19 05:31:50 <unclemantis> it kinda was
510 2011-07-19 05:32:01 <unclemantis> a ? signifies a question in my country :P
511 2011-07-19 05:36:01 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
512 2011-07-19 05:36:42 <rethaw> it reads like a statement, can you clarify the question?
513 2011-07-19 05:38:56 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
514 2011-07-19 05:39:02 cuddlefish has joined
515 2011-07-19 05:40:02 <unclemantis> i will try
516 2011-07-19 05:40:57 <unclemantis> when i send btc to a public address does the balance of the private key sent to a newly generated private key that the sender owns?
517 2011-07-19 05:43:15 apr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
518 2011-07-19 05:43:49 <cuddlefish> Woo
519 2011-07-19 05:44:03 <unclemantis> example http://blockexplorer.com/tx/7f4f1797ec7c3141577bc6a6f4521e72448870b875612fd91a245dac7e6d5198#outputs
520 2011-07-19 05:44:07 <cuddlefish> Parsing the brain-dead variable length ints works
521 2011-07-19 05:44:13 <unclemantis> hover over the ? next to Output
522 2011-07-19 05:44:16 <unclemantis> outputs
523 2011-07-19 05:45:09 dvide has quit ()
524 2011-07-19 05:45:16 <Joric> omg why it's yellow
525 2011-07-19 05:46:03 zamgo_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
526 2011-07-19 05:46:20 <unclemantis> exactly!
527 2011-07-19 05:46:27 <unclemantis> it changed colors a half hour ago
528 2011-07-19 05:46:32 <unclemantis> thinking whats his face is working on it
529 2011-07-19 05:46:38 <unclemantis> i think he did it for easier reading
530 2011-07-19 05:46:48 wirehead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
531 2011-07-19 05:46:50 <unclemantis> or to make me think my monitor went all ballistic!!!
532 2011-07-19 05:47:00 <unclemantis> Jan is his name
533 2011-07-19 05:47:07 <unclemantis> not jandd
534 2011-07-19 05:47:23 <cuddlefish> gaah, it's yellow
535 2011-07-19 05:48:36 <unclemantis> oooh, this is nice http://cgi.ebay.com/Ogon-Designs-Titanium-Stainless-Steel-Metal-Card-Wallet-/270702497488#ht_720wt_1177
536 2011-07-19 05:49:07 <unclemantis> yesterday was my birthday. If anyone is looking for last minute gift ideas, this would be a cool one
537 2011-07-19 05:50:14 <Joric> samr7 made gpu version of vanitygen, 5.5 mkeys/s on 5830
538 2011-07-19 05:50:46 <Joric> 7 and 8-character prefixes are no longer out of reach
539 2011-07-19 05:50:46 <unclemantis> woowhooo!!
540 2011-07-19 05:50:54 <unclemantis> collition here we come!
541 2011-07-19 05:51:18 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
542 2011-07-19 05:51:22 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
543 2011-07-19 05:51:31 * abishai gets a new Telemaster guitar for unclemantis
544 2011-07-19 05:51:42 <abishai> there, happy birthday!
545 2011-07-19 05:52:04 <unclemantis> wowhoo!!!!
546 2011-07-19 05:52:09 * unclemantis jams away
547 2011-07-19 05:52:19 <abishai> hahaa
548 2011-07-19 05:52:32 <Joric> i've got some kind of mini strat on my bday :) samick, made in indonesia
549 2011-07-19 05:53:19 <Joric> can't get used to it there's 42 mm neck against 51 mm as on classic guitars
550 2011-07-19 05:53:26 ahbritto_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
551 2011-07-19 05:53:37 <abishai> sweet, I only got 2 Stratocasters but I like the Telemaster sound, someday I will have one
552 2011-07-19 05:53:39 <Joric> i'm feeling i'm adapting to it but it hurts like hell
553 2011-07-19 05:54:14 <unclemantis> oh yes.... it will be yours.
554 2011-07-19 05:54:37 <Joric> i've tried everything looks like the only way is to play somewhere in the middle starting from the 5th fret or so )
555 2011-07-19 05:55:09 noagendamarket has joined
556 2011-07-19 05:55:49 <abishai> wait, why mini strat? How old are you?
557 2011-07-19 05:56:07 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell_: you there?
558 2011-07-19 05:56:32 <Joric> 16
559 2011-07-19 05:56:45 ahbritto_ has joined
560 2011-07-19 05:56:58 <unclemantis> brat
561 2011-07-19 05:57:03 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: i'm 14
562 2011-07-19 05:57:04 <abishai> you re too big for a mini guitar :)
563 2011-07-19 05:58:34 <abishai> and BTC market went to sleep it seems, Im gonna go get something to eat
564 2011-07-19 06:00:24 MobiusLoop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
565 2011-07-19 06:00:25 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: you there?
566 2011-07-19 06:00:34 <unclemantis> cuddlefish so? age has nothing to do with it :)
567 2011-07-19 06:00:36 <Joric> i don't even know what telemaster is i only knew telecasters :)
568 2011-07-19 06:00:45 <unclemantis> Joric is a brat, regardless of age :P
569 2011-07-19 06:01:22 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: you there?
570 2011-07-19 06:01:25 <cuddlefish> *lol
571 2011-07-19 06:01:28 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
572 2011-07-19 06:02:19 <abishai> well you know what Iron Maiden says, only the good die young
573 2011-07-19 06:02:35 <abishai> hope they are wrong or we are in deep sh*t
574 2011-07-19 06:02:57 Beccara has joined
575 2011-07-19 06:04:07 <unclemantis> ha ha
576 2011-07-19 06:06:24 <cuddlefish> https://github.com/nathanieltheis/Pycoin
577 2011-07-19 06:06:33 <cuddlefish> now with ability to parse variable length integers
578 2011-07-19 06:06:40 <cuddlefish> and the packet structure
579 2011-07-19 06:06:40 Beccara_ has joined
580 2011-07-19 06:06:42 <unclemantis> ok wtf is this?
581 2011-07-19 06:06:59 <unclemantis> "We couldn't find a README for this repository, we strongly recommend adding one. For more details on what formats we support, visit github/markup
582 2011-07-19 06:06:59 <unclemantis> "
583 2011-07-19 06:07:11 <Joric> vanitygen looks cool inside reminds me a linux kernel :)
584 2011-07-19 06:07:26 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: that's just github
585 2011-07-19 06:07:42 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
586 2011-07-19 06:07:45 <forrestv> cuddlefish, i implemented all of bitcoin's protocols/data structures in python
587 2011-07-19 06:08:02 <forrestv> if you'd like to look ... https://github.com/forrestv/p2pool/tree/master/p2pool/bitcoin
588 2011-07-19 06:08:14 Beccara__ has joined
589 2011-07-19 06:08:26 <unclemantis> so what does it do
590 2011-07-19 06:08:37 <cuddlefish> forrestv: eeeew structs
591 2011-07-19 06:08:46 <cuddlefish> new hotness: construct
592 2011-07-19 06:08:59 <cuddlefish> unclemantis: it will be a complete python implemenation of the Bitcoin protocol
593 2011-07-19 06:09:02 StanleyBeale has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
594 2011-07-19 06:09:12 <cuddlefish> already, you can generate + store addresses
595 2011-07-19 06:09:14 <unclemantis> i see
596 2011-07-19 06:09:14 Raycaster has joined
597 2011-07-19 06:10:09 <forrestv> cuddlefish, er, i don't really use structs. and i implemented something like construct on my own
598 2011-07-19 06:10:24 wirehead has joined
599 2011-07-19 06:10:44 <cuddlefish> well
600 2011-07-19 06:11:22 <Joric> i just forked a half-working client https://github.com/joric/brutus
601 2011-07-19 06:11:28 <forrestv> look at data.py ... search for 'tx_type' :p
602 2011-07-19 06:11:33 <cuddlefish> I'm doing it from scratch, and smartly
603 2011-07-19 06:11:40 <Joric> can send/receive transactions already
604 2011-07-19 06:11:45 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
605 2011-07-19 06:12:03 <cuddlefish> Joric: yeah, that's my next prioritie
606 2011-07-19 06:13:00 gjs278 has joined
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620 2011-07-19 06:53:12 <BitMtMan> hola, I want to parse blocks - can i get everything i need out of just the blockxxx.dat, or do i have to correlate between the block and index?
621 2011-07-19 07:05:40 <cuddlefish> lolwut
622 2011-07-19 07:05:45 <cuddlefish> the timestamp is signed...
623 2011-07-19 07:06:44 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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625 2011-07-19 07:07:36 cuddlefish has joined
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627 2011-07-19 07:10:01 <spq> BitMtMan: you can read the block*.dat files alone
628 2011-07-19 07:11:21 <BitMtMan> cool, thanks
629 2011-07-19 07:11:34 <spq> that file contains block by block, divided by <magic, full-block-length> integers, pretty easy to parse, just the stuff "under" the blocks is harder to read (varints and such)
630 2011-07-19 07:12:03 <BitMtMan> I'm looking at reading it with AutoIt in a windows environment
631 2011-07-19 07:12:13 <BitMtMan> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification <- gonna assume that it's everything I need?
632 2011-07-19 07:12:19 <cuddlefish> lol, AutoIt
633 2011-07-19 07:12:23 <vegard> cuddlefish: where do you see that?
634 2011-07-19 07:12:30 <cuddlefish> vegard: see what
635 2011-07-19 07:12:34 <cuddlefish> oh
636 2011-07-19 07:12:36 <vegard> that timestamp is signed
637 2011-07-19 07:12:41 <vegard> cuddlefish: btw, bitcointools (python) has several mistakes in that area
638 2011-07-19 07:12:41 <cuddlefish> yeah
639 2011-07-19 07:12:45 <cuddlefish> k
640 2011-07-19 07:12:52 <cuddlefish> I see it in the wiki page
641 2011-07-19 07:12:52 <spq> yep
642 2011-07-19 07:13:09 <cuddlefish> there are uints and ints
643 2011-07-19 07:13:10 <vegard> ah right
644 2011-07-19 07:13:16 <cuddlefish> I assume uints are unsigned and ints are signed
645 2011-07-19 07:13:35 <vegard> I suppose it's a mistake in the wiki
646 2011-07-19 07:13:48 <vegard> not that it makes a huge difference either way
647 2011-07-19 07:13:48 briareus has joined
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649 2011-07-19 07:13:48 briareus has joined
650 2011-07-19 07:14:00 <cuddlefish> vegard: ffffff
651 2011-07-19 07:16:03 <spq> only the version packages mentions ints, everything else uses uints
652 2011-07-19 07:16:58 <cuddlefish> hmm
653 2011-07-19 07:17:01 VastLite has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
654 2011-07-19 07:17:42 <spq> only char is mostly not mentioned as uchar (for binary data i would use uchar)
655 2011-07-19 07:19:14 <cuddlefish> sure
656 2011-07-19 07:19:41 <cuddlefish> so this is a fair parser then:
657 2011-07-19 07:19:41 <cuddlefish> 'version': Struct('version', ULInt32('proto_version'), ULInt64('services'), ULInt64('timestamp'), NetAddr('addr_me'), NetAddr('addr_you'), ULInt64('nonce'), VarStr('proto_sub_version'), ULInt64('start_height'))
658 2011-07-19 07:22:30 AAA_awright_ has joined
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660 2011-07-19 07:24:29 <spq> best u check the implementation in the orig bitcoin client and correct the wiki
661 2011-07-19 07:24:41 AStove has joined
662 2011-07-19 07:26:24 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
663 2011-07-19 07:27:56 sabalaba has joined
664 2011-07-19 07:28:03 <spq> infact the orig client uses ints where written in the wiki
665 2011-07-19 07:32:56 devon_hillard has joined
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671 2011-07-19 07:38:25 <Joric> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29416.0 slides :)
672 2011-07-19 07:39:04 <BitMtMan> hey, sweet
673 2011-07-19 07:39:26 AndyBr has joined
674 2011-07-19 07:39:48 <AndyBr> ahoy
675 2011-07-19 07:40:29 <Joric> nazdar
676 2011-07-19 07:41:16 <AndyBr> finally made my private net work! for some reason, the gui doesn't use testnet unless -testnet (config is not enough)
677 2011-07-19 07:41:43 <AndyBr> so now my transaction times are only a few minutes *yay*
678 2011-07-19 07:41:49 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
679 2011-07-19 07:41:59 <Joric> AndyBr, you mean testnet in a box? windows or linux?
680 2011-07-19 07:42:12 <AndyBr> Joric: testnet in a box
681 2011-07-19 07:42:17 <AndyBr> windows
682 2011-07-19 07:42:41 <AndyBr> i have one running on a server (no gui) and the rest runs gui
683 2011-07-19 07:43:14 <Joric> windows builds have a very old and obsolete code that prohibits using two gui instances
684 2011-07-19 07:43:34 <Joric> had to cut it out personally
685 2011-07-19 07:43:41 <AndyBr> okay. i'd build it myself, but i don't have the necessary tools
686 2011-07-19 07:44:01 <AndyBr> to confuse everyone, i shall start selling bananas priced in my private testnet currency! *cackle*
687 2011-07-19 07:44:15 <BitMtMan> bananacoin 4tw
688 2011-07-19 07:44:39 <AndyBr> BitMtMan: i think you just started something that will be hard to stop... BANANACOINS
689 2011-07-19 07:45:30 <AndyBr> if you fell in a coma right now and woke up in five years, you'd be paying your hospital bill in bananacoins (BNA)
690 2011-07-19 07:45:34 <Joric> testnet in a box comes with like 3600 BTC, pretty impressive if they were real :)
691 2011-07-19 07:46:01 <AndyBr> Joric: well, a banana is like 1500 BNA right now anyway (only got two bananas in my fridge)
692 2011-07-19 07:46:26 <AndyBr> brb coffee
693 2011-07-19 07:46:49 <BitMtMan> lol
694 2011-07-19 07:47:08 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
695 2011-07-19 07:48:09 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
696 2011-07-19 07:49:01 <ersi> AndyBr: Goes well with a banana-republic ;D
697 2011-07-19 07:49:55 <Joric> google bought http://g.co
698 2011-07-19 07:50:15 dr_win has joined
699 2011-07-19 07:50:27 <BitMtMan> AndyBr: comes packaged with its own anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4
700 2011-07-19 07:51:22 briareus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
701 2011-07-19 07:51:45 briareus has joined
702 2011-07-19 07:53:40 <Joric> http://i54.tinypic.com/2ecetjq.png
703 2011-07-19 07:57:08 xelister has joined
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709 2011-07-19 08:01:27 <diki> how and why does one get whitelisted on the forums?
710 2011-07-19 08:01:55 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
711 2011-07-19 08:02:09 <BitMtMan> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=15911.0
712 2011-07-19 08:03:02 <Joric> 5 short meaningless posts and you're done
713 2011-07-19 08:03:23 <mtrlt> yep, spam away
714 2011-07-19 08:04:18 Happy0 has joined
715 2011-07-19 08:05:09 zeta-51b` has joined
716 2011-07-19 08:05:18 <Joric> just browse novice forum a bit i assure you wont be able to stop posting there soon
717 2011-07-19 08:05:53 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
718 2011-07-19 08:06:17 thermal has quit (Excess Flood)
719 2011-07-19 08:07:51 <AndyBr> Joric: posts or replies?
720 2011-07-19 08:09:05 zeta-51b has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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723 2011-07-19 08:10:15 <Joric> 5 replies is enough
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768 2011-07-19 09:01:22 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
769 2011-07-19 09:01:32 <AndyBr_> ahoy again. mm, coffee :D
770 2011-07-19 09:01:42 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
771 2011-07-19 09:02:25 <AndyBr_> i'm using pbworks.com at the moment for wikis, but their licensing has gotten -insane-, costs me a lot of money. are there cheaper/free alternatives? (installing mediawiki myself is out of the question, operated one before)
772 2011-07-19 09:09:16 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
773 2011-07-19 09:15:18 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
774 2011-07-19 09:17:28 <diki> ;;bc,stats
775 2011-07-19 09:17:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137027 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 60 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 8 hours, 45 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1695814.42746137
776 2011-07-19 09:21:53 RAM2012 has joined
777 2011-07-19 09:23:19 cuddlefish has joined
778 2011-07-19 09:23:21 <cuddlefish> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=30122.0
779 2011-07-19 09:23:32 <cuddlefish> it's like a penny auction, sort of
780 2011-07-19 09:23:34 <cuddlefish> except now
781 2011-07-19 09:23:35 <cuddlefish> not
782 2011-07-19 09:27:10 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
783 2011-07-19 09:27:33 RAM2012 has joined
784 2011-07-19 09:28:13 d1g1t4l has joined
785 2011-07-19 09:29:48 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
786 2011-07-19 09:31:51 <cuddlefish> now only 0.025 BTC per character
787 2011-07-19 09:35:18 Marf has joined
788 2011-07-19 09:36:37 plato is now known as PLATO|prison
789 2011-07-19 09:37:33 Dagger3 is now known as Dagger2
790 2011-07-19 09:40:00 RAM2012 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
791 2011-07-19 09:40:19 AAA_awright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
792 2011-07-19 09:45:47 PLATO is now known as prison!~plato@unaffiliated/therealplato|StonerPlato
793 2011-07-19 09:46:40 AAA_awright has joined
794 2011-07-19 09:48:22 <graingert_> cuddlefish, you pinched my idea
795 2011-07-19 09:48:25 `10` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
796 2011-07-19 09:48:48 <graingert_> cuddlefish, although my plan was to have the payment address as the public key of the private key that would be revealed
797 2011-07-19 09:49:03 <cuddlefish> graingert_: then how the hell do I make a profit
798 2011-07-19 09:49:33 <graingert_> cuddlefish, you have to pinch whatever percent
799 2011-07-19 09:49:51 <cuddlefish> graingert_: i don't have the privkey in Bitcoin format
800 2011-07-19 09:49:58 <graingert_> cuddlefish, kk
801 2011-07-19 09:50:00 <cuddlefish> and Pycoin can't propagate anything key
802 2011-07-19 09:50:06 <cuddlefish> *yet
803 2011-07-19 09:50:23 <graingert_> cuddlefish, right so they get a key that's a pain to spend :p
804 2011-07-19 09:50:39 <graingert_> cuddlefish, unless they update pycoin to propagate
805 2011-07-19 09:50:40 <cuddlefish> it's the thinking man's gambling :P
806 2011-07-19 09:50:58 <graingert_> cuddlefish, interesting method of providing a bounty
807 2011-07-19 09:51:01 accel has joined
808 2011-07-19 09:51:10 <cuddlefish> graingert_: it's pretty trivial to DER it, then base58 it, then import with sipa's patch
809 2011-07-19 09:51:14 <accel> how many SHA1sums can a quard core xeon do per second?
810 2011-07-19 09:51:24 <cuddlefish> accel: not enough
811 2011-07-19 09:51:27 <cuddlefish> and sha1's not in use
812 2011-07-19 09:51:28 <accel> i'm thinking of using bitcoin's "hardness" criterion as a spam filter
813 2011-07-19 09:51:34 <accel> err, sha256
814 2011-07-19 09:51:36 <cuddlefish> accel: lol, hashcash
815 2011-07-19 09:51:40 <cuddlefish> been done
816 2011-07-19 09:51:43 <graingert_> cuddlefish, hey guys I can't get this jar open - but I put a load of gold in it
817 2011-07-19 09:51:58 <cuddlefish> graingert_: gmaxwell did it earlier today
818 2011-07-19 09:52:00 <cuddlefish> with a posted privkey
819 2011-07-19 09:52:13 graingert_ is now known as graingert
820 2011-07-19 09:52:16 <graingert> I see
821 2011-07-19 09:52:33 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|it's rather simple isn't it?
822 2011-07-19 09:52:36 <cuddlefish> nameless|: yep
823 2011-07-19 09:52:37 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Smash the jar?
824 2011-07-19 09:52:41 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jars break easily
825 2011-07-19 09:52:43 <cuddlefish> it's the bruteforcing that's hard
826 2011-07-19 09:52:53 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|You don't need to brute force a jar
827 2011-07-19 09:52:54 StonerPlato is now known as Plato
828 2011-07-19 09:52:56 <cuddlefish> if you use an opencl kernel, i might not even make a profit
829 2011-07-19 09:52:59 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|they break when you smash then
830 2011-07-19 09:53:06 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|man
831 2011-07-19 09:53:10 <cuddlefish> nameless|: that's what brute forcing means
832 2011-07-19 09:53:37 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|cuddlefish: no, brute forcing would be trying to find the combination, not giving a fuck is smashing the jar
833 2011-07-19 09:53:43 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|(I'm still on the jar analogy)
834 2011-07-19 09:53:51 Tycale_ has joined
835 2011-07-19 09:53:54 Tycale_ has quit (Client Quit)
836 2011-07-19 09:54:04 <cuddlefish> nameless|: you know you want to chip in 1 BTC
837 2011-07-19 09:54:49 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|cuddlefish: I do not have 1 BTC...
838 2011-07-19 09:55:00 * nameless !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|currently has a bitcoin balance of .001
839 2011-07-19 09:55:03 <accel> how can I setup my own hash cash server?
840 2011-07-19 09:55:04 <accel> I want
841 2011-07-19 09:55:06 <accel> this is too cool
842 2011-07-19 09:55:28 <accel> to reduce people emailing me, server will be setup to: "to email me, you need hashcash of 1 hour of quad core compute time"
843 2011-07-19 09:55:56 <noagendamarket> make your mum go wtf is hashing ?
844 2011-07-19 09:56:03 <noagendamarket> lol
845 2011-07-19 09:56:15 <cuddlefish> accel: I prefer a bitcoin requirement
846 2011-07-19 09:56:21 <cuddlefish> just 0.0005 BTC per email
847 2011-07-19 09:56:34 <cuddlefish> it'd be interesting to see the people who end up with huge balances
848 2011-07-19 09:56:36 <cuddlefish> interesting...
849 2011-07-19 09:56:40 <noagendamarket> you can message someone on witcoin for a donation
850 2011-07-19 09:56:45 <cuddlefish> quiet people lose money
851 2011-07-19 09:56:51 <cuddlefish> *gain8
852 2011-07-19 09:57:02 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|hash cash?
853 2011-07-19 09:57:11 * nameless !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|is rather out of the loop
854 2011-07-19 09:57:12 <accel> hashcash is amazing
855 2011-07-19 09:59:05 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
856 2011-07-19 09:59:20 <accel> why does hashcash only have the receiver's email address
857 2011-07-19 09:59:26 <accel> and does not do "receiver + sender's address"
858 2011-07-19 09:59:30 <sacarlson> accel: wow I'd be a rich man if I was to get funded for all my email spam
859 2011-07-19 09:59:37 <manveru> like utu?
860 2011-07-19 09:59:39 <accel> that wouuld seem to solve problem h
861 2011-07-19 09:59:47 <accel> what does utu stand for?
862 2011-07-19 10:00:16 <accel> the following is fucking beautiful
863 2011-07-19 10:00:18 <accel> # Could't someone overload an ISP server if it verified hashcash stamps for users?
864 2011-07-19 10:00:21 <accel> Hashcash is very efficient to verify. Each stamp takes about 2 microseconds to verify on a 1Ghz machine. To put it another way, the same single machine could verify stamps faster than you could deliver emails over an OC12 (a really fast expensive link ~ 1Gbit/sec rate). If someone is sending you mails that fast, your bottleneck will be your TCP stack, mail server and operating system. Verifying hashcash for users will not noticably increase mail serve
865 2011-07-19 10:00:38 Beccara has joined
866 2011-07-19 10:02:15 <accel> I love the sheer brilliance of this.
867 2011-07-19 10:02:37 <cuddlefish> accel: It's quoted as a source in the Bitcoin paper
868 2011-07-19 10:03:40 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
869 2011-07-19 10:03:50 <manveru> zed shaw built a system that replaces tcp with a network where you have to pay hashcash to communicate with people, and the more they hate you the more you have to pay :)
870 2011-07-19 10:04:38 <accel> oh, hashcash predates bitcoin?
871 2011-07-19 10:04:42 <manveru> that was back in 2008 or so
872 2011-07-19 10:04:44 <accel> now the "mining hardness makes sense"
873 2011-07-19 10:05:05 <manveru> http://web.archive.org/web/20090131203618/http://savingtheinternetwithhate.com/
874 2011-07-19 10:05:32 <accel> http://zedshaw.com/essays/ragel_state_charts.html "Enter Utu"
875 2011-07-19 10:05:44 <accel> you know what would be fucking great?
876 2011-07-19 10:05:49 <ersi> Beer.
877 2011-07-19 10:05:51 <accel> if advertisers had to burn CPU to deliver content to me
878 2011-07-19 10:06:08 <noagendamarket> hmm zed shaw doesnt like bitcoin
879 2011-07-19 10:06:18 <noagendamarket> now I know why...
880 2011-07-19 10:06:37 <accel> The goal for Utu is to fight the griefers of the Internet with hate. As you communicate with people over Utu you can tell the Hub you hate them. The amount you hate them turns into a throttling hate calculation they have to do before they can continue talking to anyone.
881 2011-07-19 10:07:54 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
882 2011-07-19 10:07:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137035 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 52 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1697906.83252028
883 2011-07-19 10:07:57 <accel> 1:00 < griefer > Ruby on Rails sucks!
884 2011-07-19 10:07:57 <accel> 1:01 * joe452 hates griefer at level 24
885 2011-07-19 10:07:57 <accel> 1:01 * frankyboy hates griefer at level 26
886 2011-07-19 10:07:57 <accel> 1:01 * argc12 hates griefer at level 32
887 2011-07-19 10:07:57 <accel> 1:10 * griefer's hate is now 27.3
888 2011-07-19 10:07:59 <accel> 1:11 < joe452 > that should shut him up
889 2011-07-19 10:08:02 <accel> 1:20 < griefer > Damn guys, it takes me 10 minutes to send a message. You suck!
890 2011-07-19 10:08:05 <accel> 1:21 * griefer leaves #rubyonrails
891 2011-07-19 10:08:17 <accel> (from Utu essay)
892 2011-07-19 10:08:21 <accel> it's fucking brilliant
893 2011-07-19 10:09:01 <graingert> accel, so what IRC client does the hashrate?
894 2011-07-19 10:09:16 <accel> http://zedshaw.com/essays/ragel_state_charts.html <-- none yet, it's just part of the essay here
895 2011-07-19 10:10:17 <graingert> accel, ah kk
896 2011-07-19 10:10:23 <graingert> accel, seems a bit centralized
897 2011-07-19 10:10:35 <accel> what's so brillianta bout it
898 2011-07-19 10:10:42 <accel> in this particular example, yes
899 2011-07-19 10:10:45 <graingert> accel, I think it should probably calculate the amount of bitcoin needed based on the current network hashrate
900 2011-07-19 10:10:49 kish_ has joined
901 2011-07-19 10:11:53 accel_ has joined
902 2011-07-19 10:12:07 <accel_> i ahve not been this inspired in a long long time
903 2011-07-19 10:13:17 <graingert> accel_ my comment?
904 2011-07-19 10:13:18 kish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
905 2011-07-19 10:13:26 <accel_> zed shaw's utu
906 2011-07-19 10:13:40 <graingert> accel_ ah kk, I think it should work with bitcoin
907 2011-07-19 10:13:57 <graingert> accel it would only be a handful of satoshi
908 2011-07-19 10:14:15 <graingert> and you get moore's law adjustment for free
909 2011-07-19 10:14:23 <mtrlt> so rich people could fuck around as much as they want :P
910 2011-07-19 10:14:36 <graingert> mtrlt, that's how life works
911 2011-07-19 10:14:39 <accel_> just like real life
912 2011-07-19 10:14:43 <graingert> LAWL
913 2011-07-19 10:14:53 <mtrlt> duh
914 2011-07-19 10:14:56 <mtrlt> but why design a system like that
915 2011-07-19 10:15:08 <graingert> mtrlt, because systems like that just crop up
916 2011-07-19 10:15:10 <AndyBr_> hashcash... me gusta
917 2011-07-19 10:15:34 <accel_> i want to invent an email system
918 2011-07-19 10:15:39 <mtrlt> who does the money go to anyway :P
919 2011-07-19 10:15:42 <accel_> where the sender has to donate a pint of blood every time they want to email me
920 2011-07-19 10:17:21 * Eliel_ wondering if it would make sense to base the size of the default (and minimum) fees on the median or average transaction size.
921 2011-07-19 10:17:50 <accel_> that's a bad idea
922 2011-07-19 10:18:00 <accel_> since if I was in a transaction
923 2011-07-19 10:18:09 <accel_> I woudl just divide it into 10000 different transactions
924 2011-07-19 10:18:16 <accel_> to lower the median/average transaction size
925 2011-07-19 10:19:12 <Eliel_> accel_: the ideal fee would be low enough that people wouldn't bother.
926 2011-07-19 10:19:13 mtrlt_ has joined
927 2011-07-19 10:20:07 <accel_> if the incentives are screwed up
928 2011-07-19 10:20:09 <Eliel_> plus... it would seem to me it would cost much more in transaction fees to send those 10000 transactions than as just one
929 2011-07-19 10:20:15 <accel_> sooner or later, it'll likely break
930 2011-07-19 10:21:08 <Eliel_> especially considering the current 500kb limit on blocksize and increasing transaction cost as the remaining space gets lower
931 2011-07-19 10:21:51 <Eliel_> as it is, currently, the fee structure does not automatically correct itself to be sensible
932 2011-07-19 10:22:08 <Eliel_> thus needing sort of centralized tuning.
933 2011-07-19 10:22:16 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
934 2011-07-19 10:22:44 anarchyx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
935 2011-07-19 10:23:14 <Eliel_> but yes, it needs to be taken into account that people would try to manipulate it.
936 2011-07-19 10:23:41 <Eliel_> median would be more difficult to manipulate, so perhaps forget the average.
937 2011-07-19 10:25:50 cuddlefish has quit (Quit: leaving)
938 2011-07-19 10:26:13 paul0 has joined
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940 2011-07-19 10:35:52 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
941 2011-07-19 10:37:25 <diki> ;;bc,stats
942 2011-07-19 10:37:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137039 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 48 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 7 hours and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1698580.95689492
943 2011-07-19 10:44:30 BlueMatt has joined
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947 2011-07-19 11:01:44 blueadept has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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949 2011-07-19 11:02:03 blueadept has joined
950 2011-07-19 11:03:13 huk has quit ()
951 2011-07-19 11:03:36 huk has joined
952 2011-07-19 11:05:06 again has joined
953 2011-07-19 11:09:39 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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955 2011-07-19 11:15:27 TD has joined
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957 2011-07-19 11:19:39 <sacarlson> I now have a merged version of merge mining with Multicoin, who would like to help me test a proto net using this software.
958 2011-07-19 11:19:50 accel_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
959 2011-07-19 11:20:01 <sacarlson> ?
960 2011-07-19 11:20:55 <sacarlson> the first planed proto test is to use the weedsnet as the parent to another proto chain that will be the child chain of weeds in a merged mining experment.
961 2011-07-19 11:25:41 Speeder has joined
962 2011-07-19 11:26:07 again has joined
963 2011-07-19 11:26:25 <sacarlson> I'm using the a merged branch of Vincent Durham code from namecoin commit 2e0e926b1d8abfbd released 7/17/11 with MultiCoin to setup a proto chain
964 2011-07-19 11:28:24 <forrestv> Eliel_, the blocksize limit is 500KB? i thought it was 1MB
965 2011-07-19 11:28:54 <Eliel_> I might have read old documentation in that case.
966 2011-07-19 11:29:21 <Eliel_> on the wiki I believe... let me see if I can find it
967 2011-07-19 11:29:30 <forrestv> Eliel_, seems to be that the creation limit is 500KB, but the acceptance limit is 1MB
968 2011-07-19 11:29:51 <Eliel_> what's the difference?
969 2011-07-19 11:29:54 <forrestv> eg. someone can create blocks up to 1MB, but current bitcoinds limit it to 500KB when generating
970 2011-07-19 11:30:04 VastLite has joined
971 2011-07-19 11:30:07 <Eliel_> oh ok
972 2011-07-19 11:30:41 <Eliel_> I'm relatively new to bitcoin. Still kind of getting my bearings. :)
973 2011-07-19 11:35:07 Blitzboom_ has joined
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975 2011-07-19 11:36:47 p0s has joined
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981 2011-07-19 11:46:23 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
982 2011-07-19 11:48:34 freewil is now known as freewil`away
983 2011-07-19 11:51:21 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
984 2011-07-19 11:51:31 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
985 2011-07-19 11:51:31 Blitzboom has joined
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987 2011-07-19 11:56:11 <gmaxwell_> "balance" : 6842740.25599464,
988 2011-07-19 11:56:11 <gmaxwell_> "blocks" : 136965,
989 2011-07-19 11:56:31 SISUbtcX has joined
990 2011-07-19 11:56:36 <BlueMatt> lol, dont you wish
991 2011-07-19 11:56:51 <gmaxwell_> So, about 5509.7 BTC 'lost' via outputs that the client doesn't understand?
992 2011-07-19 11:57:09 <BlueMatt> ?
993 2011-07-19 11:57:11 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
994 2011-07-19 11:57:27 <BlueMatt> no way in hell that many nonstd txes are getting confirmed
995 2011-07-19 11:57:35 <BlueMatt> or is it counting unconfirmed ones too?
996 2011-07-19 11:57:36 <gmaxwell_> 136965*50=6848250 ; 6848250-6842740.25599464=5509.74400536
997 2011-07-19 11:58:04 <BlueMatt> no, no, no
998 2011-07-19 11:58:05 <gmaxwell_> duh, its not counting the last 120 coinbases.
999 2011-07-19 11:58:19 <BlueMatt> what about txes other than coinbases?
1000 2011-07-19 11:58:33 <gmaxwell_> It should be counting those.
1001 2011-07-19 11:58:42 <BlueMatt> ok, then the math is wrong
1002 2011-07-19 11:58:50 <gmaxwell_> Well, it isâ but maybe I'm missing some.
1003 2011-07-19 11:58:50 <BlueMatt> then those are part of the 5500
1004 2011-07-19 12:00:08 <gmaxwell_> The wallet.dat with everything is only 1.2 gigs.
1005 2011-07-19 12:00:16 <BlueMatt> 1.2g...damn
1006 2011-07-19 12:01:27 <upb> wow so small
1007 2011-07-19 12:01:37 <BlueMatt> lol
1008 2011-07-19 12:01:37 <upb> ican see how this can easily be used on mobile devices
1009 2011-07-19 12:02:01 huk has quit ()
1010 2011-07-19 12:02:10 <prof7bit> i know the answer that will now come
1011 2011-07-19 12:02:16 again has joined
1012 2011-07-19 12:02:29 <upb> i know too
1013 2011-07-19 12:02:30 _Morphium has quit ()
1014 2011-07-19 12:02:53 <gmaxwell_> upb: What are you going on about?
1015 2011-07-19 12:03:10 <upb> 19 04:50 <@AnonymousBTCExchangeOperator> we'll do something soon
1016 2011-07-19 12:03:23 <gmaxwell_> There is nothing to be done with respect to this.
1017 2011-07-19 12:03:45 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1018 2011-07-19 12:03:49 <gmaxwell_> A user having every bitcoin transaction in their personal wallet isn't an actual use case.
1019 2011-07-19 12:03:50 <upb> yea i guess you patched out IsMine or whatever it was ?
1020 2011-07-19 12:03:54 gmaxwell_ is now known as gmaxwell
1021 2011-07-19 12:04:08 gmaxwell has quit (Changing host)
1022 2011-07-19 12:04:08 gmaxwell has joined
1023 2011-07-19 12:04:12 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1024 2011-07-19 12:04:44 sipa has joined
1025 2011-07-19 12:09:04 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1026 2011-07-19 12:10:27 <prof7bit> the port in the myaddr when sending a version message, is this the port i am listening on? what do I have to put into it when I don't listen to incoming connections?
1027 2011-07-19 12:10:47 <forrestv> if i do 'getnewaddress XXX', why does 'getaddressesbyaccount XXX' later not return that original address?
1028 2011-07-19 12:11:17 <forrestv> prof7bit, that field isn't used anyway q:
1029 2011-07-19 12:11:58 <prof7bit> this means also the address part is not used?
1030 2011-07-19 12:12:37 <prof7bit> or does it only use the address and silently assume all peers are using port 8333?
1031 2011-07-19 12:13:21 <gmaxwell> okay, also cut out the maturity check.
1032 2011-07-19 12:13:21 <gmaxwell> "balance" : 6848199.98999999,
1033 2011-07-19 12:13:21 <gmaxwell> "blocks" : 136965,
1034 2011-07-19 12:13:31 <gmaxwell> now thats beautiful
1035 2011-07-19 12:13:41 <gmaxwell> 50.01000001 is missing.
1036 2011-07-19 12:13:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: have you done a rescan, ie you have everything?
1037 2011-07-19 12:13:52 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1038 2011-07-19 12:13:58 <gmaxwell> the 1e-8 is midnightmagic's lost bit.
1039 2011-07-19 12:14:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the 0.00000001 is because one block only generated 49.99999999
1040 2011-07-19 12:14:16 <gmaxwell> 50 is perhaps the duplicate coinbase?
1041 2011-07-19 12:14:25 <BlueMatt> what duplicate coinbase?
1042 2011-07-19 12:14:57 <gmaxwell> Someone solved a second block using an identical merkle root... lemme find it.
1043 2011-07-19 12:15:07 AStove has joined
1044 2011-07-19 12:15:29 again has joined
1045 2011-07-19 12:15:44 <BlueMatt> I wasnt aware we ever had that problem...
1046 2011-07-19 12:15:45 <BlueMatt> oh well
1047 2011-07-19 12:15:53 <sipa> it happened a few times
1048 2011-07-19 12:16:04 <BlueMatt> why was the chain not forked after that?
1049 2011-07-19 12:16:07 <prof7bit> it does not complain if i use 0.0.0.0:0 as my address. I hope this does not impact the network.
1050 2011-07-19 12:16:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: at the time, i suppose that 50 lost BTC wasn't worth the hassle
1051 2011-07-19 12:16:36 <gmaxwell> hm. if it happened more than once then it can't be the cause of the missing 50 there.
1052 2011-07-19 12:16:43 <sipa> i doubt it would be now
1053 2011-07-19 12:17:09 asuk_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1054 2011-07-19 12:17:10 <BlueMatt> na, if it happened now so many people would call foul play we would have to fork
1055 2011-07-19 12:17:36 <sipa> a duplicate coinbase is entirely your own fault...
1056 2011-07-19 12:17:46 <sipa> or is something going on i'm not aware of?
1057 2011-07-19 12:17:56 <BlueMatt> well no, gmaxwell is saying that a block with that got accepted
1058 2011-07-19 12:17:58 asuk has joined
1059 2011-07-19 12:17:58 asuk has quit (Client Quit)
1060 2011-07-19 12:18:04 <sipa> of course
1061 2011-07-19 12:18:09 <gmaxwell> It did, the rules don't prohibit it.
1062 2011-07-19 12:18:14 <sipa> why wouldn't it?
1063 2011-07-19 12:18:27 <BlueMatt> well yea, if you only generate max 50
1064 2011-07-19 12:18:36 <BlueMatt> per block
1065 2011-07-19 12:18:44 <sipa> right, there could be a network rule that a duplicate txid is not allowed in a coinbase
1066 2011-07-19 12:19:08 <gmaxwell> Well, that would make validation very slightly more expensive.
1067 2011-07-19 12:19:17 <sipa> indeed
1068 2011-07-19 12:19:31 <sipa> only adding that rule now would cause a block chain split 30000 blocks ago
1069 2011-07-19 12:19:39 <sipa> so it would need to be enforced conditionally
1070 2011-07-19 12:20:03 <sipa> and honestly... it doesn't harm anyone but the miner himself
1071 2011-07-19 12:20:09 <BlueMatt> yep
1072 2011-07-19 12:20:11 <sipa> so it his own reponsibility
1073 2011-07-19 12:20:14 <sipa> *is
1074 2011-07-19 12:20:16 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000af0aed4792b1acee3d966af36cf5def14935db8de83d6f9306f2f
1075 2011-07-19 12:20:23 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000a4d0a398161ffc163c503763b1f4360639393e0e4c8e300e0caec
1076 2011-07-19 12:21:01 <BlueMatt> ah, ok, well whatever
1077 2011-07-19 12:21:09 <BlueMatt> sorry, I was thinking inverted
1078 2011-07-19 12:21:34 <BlueMatt> not duplicate coinbase, but second coinbase per block, I was like what, never knew that happened...
1079 2011-07-19 12:21:39 <gmaxwell> What happens with mining on walletcrypto when the pool runs out?
1080 2011-07-19 12:21:48 <BlueMatt> you mine to default key
1081 2011-07-19 12:21:49 <gmaxwell> ah!
1082 2011-07-19 12:22:04 <gmaxwell> well, that creates a risk of making more of these.
1083 2011-07-19 12:22:09 <sipa> hmm, true
1084 2011-07-19 12:22:15 asuk has joined
1085 2011-07-19 12:22:26 <sipa> maybe an extra coinbase part could be added in that case
1086 2011-07-19 12:22:31 <sipa> eg. with the unix timestamp
1087 2011-07-19 12:22:32 <BlueMatt> true...should put a timestamp in coinbase
1088 2011-07-19 12:23:48 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1089 2011-07-19 12:23:49 <gmaxwell> so yea... darnit where is the 50.01 being lost from.
1090 2011-07-19 12:24:20 <sipa> what's the problem exactly?
1091 2011-07-19 12:25:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: for amusement and testing, I shortcircuted IsMine, IsConfirmed, and Coinbase maturity check. Then did a rescan.
1092 2011-07-19 12:25:05 <gmaxwell> "balance" : 6848199.98999999,
1093 2011-07-19 12:25:05 <gmaxwell> "blocks" : 136965,
1094 2011-07-19 12:25:15 <gmaxwell> So there is 50.01000001 BTC missing.
1095 2011-07-19 12:25:21 asuk has quit (Client Quit)
1096 2011-07-19 12:25:35 <sipa> i believe there once was a coinbase with a sub-50 amount
1097 2011-07-19 12:25:52 <BlueMatt> thats the missing 0.00000001
1098 2011-07-19 12:25:53 <gmaxwell> well there was midnightmagic's, 1e-8.
1099 2011-07-19 12:26:09 <sipa> right, so now you're wondering where the lost 0.01 is from?
1100 2011-07-19 12:26:20 <BlueMatt> and 50
1101 2011-07-19 12:26:21 <gmaxwell> And the lost 50.
1102 2011-07-19 12:26:23 asuk has joined
1103 2011-07-19 12:26:39 <sipa> the 50 is just caused by a duplicate coinbase, no?
1104 2011-07-19 12:26:39 AStove has quit ()
1105 2011-07-19 12:26:49 <gmaxwell> Was there only one duplicate coinbase?
1106 2011-07-19 12:26:54 <sipa> maybe
1107 2011-07-19 12:26:54 AStove has joined
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1109 2011-07-19 12:27:14 <gmaxwell> If so, that explains the 50 but not th 0.01.
1110 2011-07-19 12:27:32 <sipa> some fee not claimed, maybe?
1111 2011-07-19 12:27:36 <gmaxwell> Based on the size of the valle the 0.01 may have been an incident of a miner not taking fees.
1112 2011-07-19 12:27:50 <gmaxwell> Yea...
1113 2011-07-19 12:28:22 <sipa> if you get to explain all the missing 50.01000001, that is a very nice consistency check
1114 2011-07-19 12:28:25 <sipa> for the wallet code
1115 2011-07-19 12:28:47 <gmaxwell> indeed. Thats why I bothered letting it do a whole rescan! :)
1116 2011-07-19 12:28:55 <gmaxwell> It seems to perform pretty well too.
1117 2011-07-19 12:29:00 <sipa> you wallet.dat must be massive now
1118 2011-07-19 12:29:03 <sipa> *your
1119 2011-07-19 12:29:05 <gmaxwell> 1.2GBytes.
1120 2011-07-19 12:29:12 <sipa> encryption turned on?
1121 2011-07-19 12:29:21 <gmaxwell> hah, no, but there are no private keys.
1122 2011-07-19 12:29:28 <sipa> ah right
1123 2011-07-19 12:29:35 liltoe has quit (Quit: wee wee wee)
1124 2011-07-19 12:29:36 <sipa> it's only wtxs obviously
1125 2011-07-19 12:29:47 <gmaxwell> "I wish!"
1126 2011-07-19 12:30:06 <sipa> well, and bestblock, settings, ...
1127 2011-07-19 12:30:11 <sipa> default pubkey
1128 2011-07-19 12:30:25 <gmaxwell> yea, there is the keypool here too, obviously.
1129 2011-07-19 12:30:53 <sipa> right
1130 2011-07-19 12:31:04 <sipa> some more things i'm forgetting as well
1131 2011-07-19 12:31:31 <sipa> but just mean, those 1.2GiB is almost entirely caused by wtx's
1132 2011-07-19 12:32:27 <TD> good afternoon
1133 2011-07-19 12:32:48 again has joined
1134 2011-07-19 12:32:49 <sipa> hi TD
1135 2011-07-19 12:33:08 Zagitta has joined
1136 2011-07-19 12:33:48 <Zagitta> ello guys
1137 2011-07-19 12:34:58 <jeremias> hi
1138 2011-07-19 12:35:05 <AndyBr_> how did you get a 1.2gb wallet, gmaxwell?
1139 2011-07-19 12:35:17 <AndyBr_> and are there performance issues?
1140 2011-07-19 12:35:25 <jeremias> generate enough keys?
1141 2011-07-19 12:35:34 <jeremias> btw, can you delete keys from the wallet?
1142 2011-07-19 12:35:51 <sipa> jeremias: soon :)
1143 2011-07-19 12:35:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how long does it take to do initial load from disk with that?
1144 2011-07-19 12:36:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it didn't look like it was obviously longer than usual.
1145 2011-07-19 12:36:39 <BlueMatt> hmmm...that indicates a serious problem...
1146 2011-07-19 12:36:45 <gmaxwell> (I just restarted it after pulling the maturity problem)
1147 2011-07-19 12:37:09 <BlueMatt> if wallet load from disk of a 1.2g wallet doesnt make the client take longer, something else is a real bottleneck...
1148 2011-07-19 12:39:13 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1149 2011-07-19 12:40:00 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1150 2011-07-19 12:40:20 <gmaxwell> addresses 26634ms
1151 2011-07-19 12:40:38 <gmaxwell> block index 12553ms
1152 2011-07-19 12:41:22 <BlueMatt> yea addr.dat in general is terrible
1153 2011-07-19 12:42:02 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1154 2011-07-19 12:42:02 <gmaxwell> looks like the wallet is taking a little while, it just wasn't long enough that I really noticed.
1155 2011-07-19 12:42:09 <gmaxwell> wallet 96050ms
1156 2011-07-19 12:42:13 <gmaxwell> and its up.
1157 2011-07-19 12:42:20 <BlueMatt> 90s and you dont notice it?
1158 2011-07-19 12:42:30 <BlueMatt> are you running in valgrind?
1159 2011-07-19 12:42:39 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1160 2011-07-19 12:42:39 groffer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1161 2011-07-19 12:43:03 <gmaxwell> No, I didn't notice it because a totally normal node takes >30 seconds so I'm already in the habbit of not watching closely!
1162 2011-07-19 12:43:31 <gmaxwell> If it had taken 5 minutes I would have noticed.
1163 2011-07-19 12:43:32 <BlueMatt> still 3x that much is a big difference...oh well 1.3g wallet.dat isnt something that need be supported
1164 2011-07-19 12:43:47 <gmaxwell> Right, I think thats perfectly fine.
1165 2011-07-19 12:44:03 <gmaxwell> the 26 seconds for addresses is nuts.
1166 2011-07-19 12:44:04 <BlueMatt> anyway, 26s for addr.dat is really bad...
1167 2011-07-19 12:44:21 groffer has joined
1168 2011-07-19 12:44:22 devrandom has joined
1169 2011-07-19 12:44:32 <gmaxwell> esp as I'm on a machine with 6 gigs of ram and a fast SSD, and all of this should have been in cache.
1170 2011-07-19 12:44:52 <BlueMatt> thats an ssd? mine doesnt take that long on drives
1171 2011-07-19 12:45:03 <senseles> Is it possible to buy a copy of ISE used? I'm seeing a few on ebay. But the guy on the forum said there was a yearly licensing fee? Is that for updates? The software will work without it; just not be updated?
1172 2011-07-19 12:45:08 <TD> does the wallet even need to be loaded into RAM?
1173 2011-07-19 12:45:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: how big is your addr.dat?
1174 2011-07-19 12:45:16 <BlueMatt> TD: no
1175 2011-07-19 12:45:18 <TD> addr.dat grows without bounds, right
1176 2011-07-19 12:45:23 <BlueMatt> yes
1177 2011-07-19 12:45:27 <TD> i wonder why it takes 90 seconds to open. hrm
1178 2011-07-19 12:45:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: This one is 56MBytes.
1179 2011-07-19 12:46:15 <BlueMatt> wait a sec, grepping my debug.log takes a long time...
1180 2011-07-19 12:46:26 <BlueMatt> 1G debug.log...
1181 2011-07-19 12:46:26 <Zagitta> my god compiling bitcoind on centos is a pain: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgthread-2.0 (about the number 1000 error i get after having fixed all the others)
1182 2011-07-19 12:46:30 Teslah has joined
1183 2011-07-19 12:46:32 <BlueMatt> addr.dat == 41M
1184 2011-07-19 12:46:49 <sipa> TD: currently, the wallet needs to be loaded on memory
1185 2011-07-19 12:46:52 <BlueMatt> and load (on disk drives) takes 3s
1186 2011-07-19 12:46:58 <senseles> Zagitta: i put 0.3.24 Centos 5.6 X86_64 binaries on the forums
1187 2011-07-19 12:46:58 again has joined
1188 2011-07-19 12:47:00 <sipa> as eg. keys are indexed by pubkey
1189 2011-07-19 12:47:18 <sipa> if they would be stored indexed by address, keys wouldn't need to be loaded
1190 2011-07-19 12:47:19 <TD> oh, yeah
1191 2011-07-19 12:47:26 <Zagitta> senseles: i need it compiled with the multithreaded RCP patch
1192 2011-07-19 12:47:26 <senseles> Zagitta: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=27352.0
1193 2011-07-19 12:47:28 <TD> wallet format changes required then, perhaps
1194 2011-07-19 12:47:32 <TD> (same for bitcoinj)
1195 2011-07-19 12:47:40 <senseles> send me the patch ill compile it for you
1196 2011-07-19 12:47:44 <senseles> shouldnt take but a few seconds
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1198 2011-07-19 12:48:00 <sipa> it could go into 0.4.0 maybe still, do the change together with switching to encrypted keys
1199 2011-07-19 12:48:06 <b4epoche> sipa: you going to be around in a couple hours? The latest wallet.cpp broke my privKey QR code dump. I think I've figured out a lot of the changes but am stuck on a few.
1200 2011-07-19 12:48:10 abishai has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1201 2011-07-19 12:48:10 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Whats the block number with the missing 1e-8?
1202 2011-07-19 12:48:14 <TD> probably not worth delaying 0.4 for that
1203 2011-07-19 12:48:25 <TD> i think instawallet is having issues due to wallet size, but beyond that has anyone complained?
1204 2011-07-19 12:48:26 <b4epoche> got babysitting duty now.
1205 2011-07-19 12:48:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: addresses 3717ms, block index 27472ms, wallet 26ms
1206 2011-07-19 12:48:41 <BlueMatt> on raid5 7200 rpm drives
1207 2011-07-19 12:48:44 <BlueMatt> 1tb trives
1208 2011-07-19 12:48:47 <Zagitta> senseles: my god i owe you big if you'd be so kind to do that: http://davids.webmaster.com/~davids/bitcoin-4diff.txt
1209 2011-07-19 12:48:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: weird, I wonder what else is happening during that time.
1210 2011-07-19 12:48:53 <sipa> b4epoche: i won't be here much until thursday evening
1211 2011-07-19 12:48:57 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1212 2011-07-19 12:49:02 <sipa> b4epoche: but if you have questions, ask
1213 2011-07-19 12:49:11 <b4epoche> ok, thanks.
1214 2011-07-19 12:49:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no idea, but an ssd should be a ton quicker
1215 2011-07-19 12:49:30 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: please don't run that "hubmode" patch.
1216 2011-07-19 12:49:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: are you doing other drives stuff...
1217 2011-07-19 12:49:40 <TD> maybe db recovery?
1218 2011-07-19 12:49:45 <Zagitta> senseles: i know, i'll run it without -hub
1219 2011-07-19 12:49:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the machine is quiet.
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1221 2011-07-19 12:50:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: TD yea, probably db recovery
1222 2011-07-19 12:50:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ssd/drive shouln't even matter when it should be hot in cache.
1223 2011-07-19 12:50:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: he dropped the max outbound connections of hub to like 32, which is a *ton* better if he is accepting like 150 connections...
1224 2011-07-19 12:50:19 <gmaxwell> I just down cleanly the prior time.
1225 2011-07-19 12:50:21 <b4epoche> sipa: I guess the big issue is what happened to pwalletMain->mapKeys
1226 2011-07-19 12:50:23 <BlueMatt> but it should never be used if you arent accepting
1227 2011-07-19 12:51:01 <sipa> b4epoche: the idea is making mapKeys hidden, and use the interface in keystore.h (implemented by CWallet) to access the key store
1228 2011-07-19 12:51:31 <b4epoche> ah, that makes sense
1229 2011-07-19 12:51:51 <b4epoche> and explains why I was so confused by wallet.cpp
1230 2011-07-19 12:52:13 <sipa> the showwallet branch has a more elaborate interface in CKeyStore
1231 2011-07-19 12:52:32 <sipa> eg. one for requesting CSecrets directly, and removing keys
1232 2011-07-19 12:53:04 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1233 2011-07-19 12:53:32 <sipa> b4epoche: the real purpose was making script.cpp not depend on wallet
1234 2011-07-19 12:53:41 <b4epoche> gotcha...
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1238 2011-07-19 12:54:31 abishai is now known as Guest28654
1239 2011-07-19 12:54:40 <gmaxwell> ummm. I did only wake up an hour or so ago... but this hubmode patch just drew my attention to something odd looking?
1240 2011-07-19 12:54:44 <gmaxwell> - if (!addr.IsIPv4() || !addr.IsValid() || setConnected.count(addr.ip & 0x0000ffff))
1241 2011-07-19 12:54:47 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell devrandom hey, if you dont mind, Im gonna update wxWidgets-release to 2.9.2
1242 2011-07-19 12:54:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1243 2011-07-19 12:55:04 <gmaxwell> is addr.ip is some network byte order there?
1244 2011-07-19 12:55:59 <senseles> Zagitta: getting warnings from ui.cpp but it compiled
1245 2011-07-19 12:56:09 forrestv has joined
1246 2011-07-19 12:56:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: it is
1247 2011-07-19 12:56:26 <gmaxwell> oh okay. :)
1248 2011-07-19 12:56:32 * Zagitta 's new hero is senseles
1249 2011-07-19 12:57:14 <Zagitta> senseles: throw a link and an address ;)
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1251 2011-07-19 12:57:58 <dobalina> hey i'm curious is does yoru bitcoin address always remain the same?
1252 2011-07-19 12:58:30 <dobalina> when i open the bitcoin client in the "new address" it shows a different address then the original one... :-.
1253 2011-07-19 12:58:48 <AndyBr_> dobalina: you can have many addresses
1254 2011-07-19 12:58:50 <dobalina> basically the only proof of how many btcoins you have is by backing up your "wallet" ?
1255 2011-07-19 12:59:10 <dobalina> what happens if you change pc's or wtvr...
1256 2011-07-19 12:59:26 <AndyBr_> then you have zero money, unless you move your wallet file also
1257 2011-07-19 12:59:50 <Eliel_> dobalina: make sure to set up good backups if you have more bitcoins than you'd care to risk losing.
1258 2011-07-19 13:00:05 <dobalina> gotcha
1259 2011-07-19 13:00:20 <ersi> dobalina: Every time you click 'new address' you get a new one (old ones still valid), all of them tied to your wallet
1260 2011-07-19 13:00:28 <ersi> (though no one can see they're tied to your wallet)
1261 2011-07-19 13:00:31 <Eliel_> dobalina: here are instructions https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
1262 2011-07-19 13:00:36 again has joined
1263 2011-07-19 13:01:07 <dobalina> and there's no possiblity that somepoint in the the future a wallet created under an "older" bt client becomes "incompatible" with a latest upgrade or soethign?
1264 2011-07-19 13:01:16 <dobalina> Eliel_ cheers
1265 2011-07-19 13:01:29 mtrlt_ is now known as mtrlt
1266 2011-07-19 13:01:45 <Eliel_> dobalina: if the wallet becomes incompatible, there will be conversion tools.
1267 2011-07-19 13:01:51 <ersi> oh, and you should always have a crisp backup. Everytime you've made a transaction, recieved one or made a new address
1268 2011-07-19 13:01:59 <sipa> dobalina: if we introduce a new address type, we'll definitely keep supporting old ones
1269 2011-07-19 13:02:03 <Zagitta> seneles: give me your bitcoin address so i can donate a bit :)
1270 2011-07-19 13:02:03 <sipa> if ever
1271 2011-07-19 13:02:09 <senseles> it's alright
1272 2011-07-19 13:02:14 <senseles> i didnt have anything to do was going crazy :p
1273 2011-07-19 13:02:19 Bachfischer has joined
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1275 2011-07-19 13:03:12 <Zagitta> senseles: :p
1276 2011-07-19 13:05:48 Katapult has joined
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1278 2011-07-19 13:07:29 <Zagitta> senseles: is it supposed to grap 500mb ram right off the bat? o _O
1279 2011-07-19 13:07:40 <Zagitta> bitcoin_d_ that is
1280 2011-07-19 13:07:52 <senseles> i dont think so
1281 2011-07-19 13:07:57 <senseles> Let me try it on my system
1282 2011-07-19 13:09:02 <senseles> launched it, been running for a few seconds it's at 1.3% of 4gig
1283 2011-07-19 13:09:08 <senseles> in top
1284 2011-07-19 13:09:39 <senseles> 1.5%
1285 2011-07-19 13:09:44 <Zagitta> senseles: yeah odd, a restart seem to have done the job... anyway it's not downloading blocks
1286 2011-07-19 13:10:01 <Zagitta> 26 connections
1287 2011-07-19 13:10:43 <senseles> 16 here
1288 2011-07-19 13:10:51 <senseles> 1.6%
1289 2011-07-19 13:11:16 <Zagitta> what's your virtual mem on it looking like?
1290 2011-07-19 13:11:35 <gmaxwell> Well, it uses a lot of virtual because it mmaps the blockchain files.
1291 2011-07-19 13:11:44 <gmaxwell> But thats harmless.
1292 2011-07-19 13:12:16 <Zagitta> except there's only 600mb ram on an amazon EC2 micro instance :p
1293 2011-07-19 13:12:27 <gmaxwell> Ram != virtual memory.
1294 2011-07-19 13:13:16 <Zagitta> Mem: 611212k total, 604112k used, 7100k free is a bit missleading then is it not?
1295 2011-07-19 13:14:00 <gmaxwell> You have to subtract buffers/cached.
1296 2011-07-19 13:14:22 <senseles> ya, what is the cached figure?
1297 2011-07-19 13:14:29 <gmaxwell> Because they are all instantly droppable.
1298 2011-07-19 13:14:40 <Zagitta> 470864k cached... anyway looks like it started downloading blocks :)
1299 2011-07-19 13:16:06 <diki> can you guys improve the rpc code?
1300 2011-07-19 13:16:22 <diki> if too much getworks are requested per second, it starts to drop connections
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1302 2011-07-19 13:19:09 <senseles> gmaxwell: do you know how the xilinix ISE licensing works?
1303 2011-07-19 13:19:10 <forrestv> if i do 'getnewaddress XXX', why does 'getaddressesbyaccount XXX' later not return that original address?
1304 2011-07-19 13:19:14 <senseles> i figure you'd be the one to ask
1305 2011-07-19 13:22:05 agricocb has joined
1306 2011-07-19 13:23:42 <gmaxwell> senseles: the devkits include a free locked copy, but thats about all I know.
1307 2011-07-19 13:25:48 <Zagitta> so now that i've got bitcoind and my own pool software set up, what would be the best way to benchmark the amount of getworks it can handle?
1308 2011-07-19 13:26:15 <senseles> php json rpc call
1309 2011-07-19 13:26:18 <senseles> in a loop
1310 2011-07-19 13:26:45 <gmaxwell> I found the 0.01
1311 2011-07-19 13:27:13 <Zagitta> senseles: just from localhost?
1312 2011-07-19 13:27:23 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5 < midnightmagic's tribute block, had fees he didn't take.
1313 2011-07-19 13:27:55 Clipse has joined
1314 2011-07-19 13:28:00 <senseles> you should probably do it remotely to get a more accurate view
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1317 2011-07-19 13:28:31 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, is that like coin burning?
1318 2011-07-19 13:28:55 <Zagitta> might as well just use my c# code for it then :)
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1320 2011-07-19 13:29:22 <mtrlt> ha. and he thought he was damning one satoshi to eternal sleep :P
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1325 2011-07-19 13:36:32 <nanotube> gmaxwell: should be a missing .01000001 :)
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1346 2011-07-19 14:04:22 <gmaxwell> nanotube: right but only the 0.01 part was unexplained, I knew about the 1e-8.
1347 2011-07-19 14:05:21 <Eliel_> ... wait, isn't mightnightmagic throwing out 0.00000002 in there?
1348 2011-07-19 14:07:19 ewal has joined
1349 2011-07-19 14:10:31 <sipa> Eliel_: indeed
1350 2011-07-19 14:10:36 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1351 2011-07-19 14:10:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: see Eliel_'s comment :)
1352 2011-07-19 14:10:47 <AndyBr_> o_O
1353 2011-07-19 14:10:52 <sipa> sure you can account for it?
1354 2011-07-19 14:11:10 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: No, blockexplorer is justbusted.
1355 2011-07-19 14:11:23 <gmaxwell> 19rEiwcJBRuLnANRZiX6VCfuJiGoMZs3At: 49.99999999
1356 2011-07-19 14:11:31 <gmaxwell> and there was 0.01 in fees in the block
1357 2011-07-19 14:11:38 <sipa> oh i see
1358 2011-07-19 14:11:59 <sipa> blockexplorer miscalculates the fee because of the incomplete cashing of the fees themselves :)
1359 2011-07-19 14:12:21 <gmaxwell> so thats 50.01 - 49.99999999 = 0.01000001.
1360 2011-07-19 14:12:23 <Eliel_> pident acts a bit different :) http://pident.artefact2.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5
1361 2011-07-19 14:12:25 aristidesfl has joined
1362 2011-07-19 14:12:50 <gmaxwell> Thats correct.
1363 2011-07-19 14:13:18 <Eliel_> ah yes, so everything matches then.
1364 2011-07-19 14:15:19 <nanotube> gmaxwell: ah i see :)
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1371 2011-07-19 14:23:34 <TD> sipa: great news
1372 2011-07-19 14:23:48 <TD> today somebody received (testnet) bitcoins via NFC for the first time
1373 2011-07-19 14:23:58 <TD> "tap to pay" is here for us now :-)
1374 2011-07-19 14:24:02 <BlueMatt> TD: thats awsome
1375 2011-07-19 14:24:12 <BlueMatt> awesome*
1376 2011-07-19 14:24:15 <TD> the ui is really slick. but unfortunately, most phones don't do nfc :(
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1378 2011-07-19 14:24:25 <BlueMatt> Im sure that is coming rapidly
1379 2011-07-19 14:25:39 <TD> i hope so
1380 2011-07-19 14:25:57 <TD> qrcodes are nearly as good until then
1381 2011-07-19 14:26:08 <BlueMatt> well with all the support people like mastercard, or was it visa? are putting into it...
1382 2011-07-19 14:26:34 <TD> right
1383 2011-07-19 14:26:40 <sipa> TD: oh, really nice!
1384 2011-07-19 14:26:50 <TD> but it seems some OEMs (samsung?) are waiting until the credit card company infrastructure is there before putting NFC adapters into the phones
1385 2011-07-19 14:26:54 <TD> :/
1386 2011-07-19 14:27:10 <TD> i guess "raw" nfc is not very interesting for them (reasonable)
1387 2011-07-19 14:27:10 * sipa mumbles something about chickens and eggs
1388 2011-07-19 14:27:12 <nanotube> qr is just as good and requires no new hw... so what's the big deal?
1389 2011-07-19 14:27:12 <ersi> Built It and they Shall Come
1390 2011-07-19 14:27:15 Gonzago has joined
1391 2011-07-19 14:27:22 <TD> nanotube: it's not quite as nice. in practice it's not much different
1392 2011-07-19 14:27:26 leo_ has joined
1393 2011-07-19 14:27:38 <TD> but there's something inherently awesome about just touching two phones together and having it instantly pop up on the send coins screen
1394 2011-07-19 14:27:47 <TD> it works exactly as you'd imagine it should
1395 2011-07-19 14:27:55 again has joined
1396 2011-07-19 14:27:58 <TD> as the tech spreads it'll make the meze grill type use case much easier
1397 2011-07-19 14:28:05 <leo_> Hi people, I installed bitcoin on debian 64 and when I try to start the program I see this message on terminal: EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_6system12system_errorEEEEE Cannot assign requested address bitcoin in ThreadRPCServer() terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost
1398 2011-07-19 14:28:13 <leo_> How to fix it?
1399 2011-07-19 14:28:37 <nanotube> TD: heh i see... i guess i've always been a fan of 'good enough' :) but the 'magic' experience is not to be underestimated, i suppose. ;)
1400 2011-07-19 14:28:42 <BlueMatt> TD: yep, I cant wait, but since the infrastructure is pretty much here, hopefully samsung will hop on the bandwagon, not like the tech is expensive
1401 2011-07-19 14:28:56 <TD> yeah
1402 2011-07-19 14:30:45 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1403 2011-07-19 14:31:46 * BlueMatt is waiting for a bitcoin wallet app that can communicate via built-in bitcoinj/rpc/webcoin/etc all in one convenient app
1404 2011-07-19 14:34:04 <nanotube> anyone care to try out p2pool now running on mainnet? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg379115#msg379115
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1408 2011-07-19 14:37:17 <TD> BlueMatt: you mean one that does every single protocol possible? :)
1409 2011-07-19 14:37:26 <BlueMatt> yep, thats the idea ;)
1410 2011-07-19 14:37:32 <TD> BlueMatt: I guess you'd have to ask Andreas about that. His apps UI would generalize to other backends beyond BitCoinJ
1411 2011-07-19 14:37:55 <TD> though obviously the goal is that nobody should need to know/care about the other protocols
1412 2011-07-19 14:38:06 fnord0 has joined
1413 2011-07-19 14:38:06 <TD> pure p2p connections with lightweight mode should be fast and easy enough
1414 2011-07-19 14:38:07 fn0rd has joined
1415 2011-07-19 14:38:14 <TD> we're getting there. it's pretty fast to sync the block chain normally.
1416 2011-07-19 14:38:20 <BlueMatt> that would be amazing, I mean I use rpc, but webcoin-like stuff is the future imo
1417 2011-07-19 14:38:29 <BlueMatt> webwallets/etc
1418 2011-07-19 14:39:07 <TD> yeah, maybe. i think on the iPhone you'd have to use webcoin
1419 2011-07-19 14:39:15 <BlueMatt> yea, that too
1420 2011-07-19 14:39:22 <BlueMatt> but I dont care about iPhone
1421 2011-07-19 14:39:26 <TD> on Android the bitcoinj approach has quite the head start
1422 2011-07-19 14:39:32 <TD> though stefan is making fast progress
1423 2011-07-19 14:39:47 <BlueMatt> Im just not a big fan of storeing coins on a phone
1424 2011-07-19 14:39:50 <TD> so we'll see. my gut feeling is that the simplicity of connecting directly to the p2p network will be a big bonus
1425 2011-07-19 14:39:53 <TD> literally just install the app and go
1426 2011-07-19 14:40:00 <TD> why not? in case you lose the device?
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1428 2011-07-19 14:40:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: neither am i, but i *love* the idea that i can
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1430 2011-07-19 14:40:43 <BlueMatt> yea, in case I lose the device, but I just dont feel comforteable on something that I dont have as much control over
1431 2011-07-19 14:40:46 * sipa actually has 0.1 BTC on his phone
1432 2011-07-19 14:40:52 <BlueMatt> my computer, I can do anything form the bootloader on up
1433 2011-07-19 14:41:04 <TD> fair enough
1434 2011-07-19 14:41:14 <TD> i think backing up the wallet to the cloud will solve the "lost device" issue
1435 2011-07-19 14:41:20 <BlueMatt> yea, I prefer that
1436 2011-07-19 14:41:22 <TD> as long as encryption is good enough
1437 2011-07-19 14:41:23 <BlueMatt> like webcoin :)
1438 2011-07-19 14:41:32 <TD> it's different
1439 2011-07-19 14:41:35 <TD> webcoin needs a server to help you
1440 2011-07-19 14:41:43 <TD> if the server goes away, you're stuck. well, you need to find another webcoin server.
1441 2011-07-19 14:41:59 <TD> though given how browsers work i'm not sure it'd be easy to move wallets between servers unless those servers co-operate
1442 2011-07-19 14:42:04 <BlueMatt> well, ok, but I prefer it, its even more light weight than p2p
1443 2011-07-19 14:42:05 <TD> the entire browser security model is intended to prevent exactly that
1444 2011-07-19 14:42:10 <BCBot> Stats: http://bit.ly/bitcoin-irc-stats
1445 2011-07-19 14:42:13 <TD> that is true
1446 2011-07-19 14:42:17 <BlueMatt> it wouldnt be hard to do a secure webcoin with the wallet stored on the phone
1447 2011-07-19 14:42:23 <TD> i think keeping centralization to a minimum is worthwhile though
1448 2011-07-19 14:42:25 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1450 2011-07-19 14:42:41 <nanotube> out of curiosity... what exactly is webcoin? is it basically an ewallet?
1451 2011-07-19 14:42:58 Guest17379 is now known as diki
1452 2011-07-19 14:43:06 <BlueMatt> yea, but a secure one (ish)
1453 2011-07-19 14:43:13 <TD> on the scale of weightness, bitcoin clients go something like this
1454 2011-07-19 14:43:17 <BlueMatt> coins stored locally encrypted
1455 2011-07-19 14:43:18 <TD> rpc, webcoin, spv, full
1456 2011-07-19 14:43:28 <TD> with rpc the wallet and keys are stored remotely.
1457 2011-07-19 14:43:45 <TD> with webcoin the keys are stored locally, but everything else (ie, transactions and the block chain) is stored remotely
1458 2011-07-19 14:43:53 <BlueMatt> I like that model
1459 2011-07-19 14:43:56 <TD> with spv you store keys and transactions locally, and connect directly to the p2p network, but only some things are verified
1460 2011-07-19 14:44:02 <TD> with full, you verify everything yourself
1461 2011-07-19 14:44:20 <TD> they give you different efficiency vs independence/privacy tradeoffs
1462 2011-07-19 14:44:32 <TD> i think the webcoin model and SPV model will converge over time
1463 2011-07-19 14:44:36 <BlueMatt> I prefer everything in the cloud, as long as I can easily switch servers
1464 2011-07-19 14:45:19 <nanotube> ah, local key storage ... that's good for an ewallet.
1465 2011-07-19 14:45:30 freakazoid has joined
1466 2011-07-19 14:45:44 <TD> webcoin is intended to allow you to use bitcoin from a web browser (hence the name), without having to trust the server too much
1467 2011-07-19 14:45:57 <b4epoche> Mpower botnet numbers: 14k systems, and 13 Gbps
1468 2011-07-19 14:46:01 <TD> you need to trust it'll stick around and the server knows all your transactions
1469 2011-07-19 14:46:02 <BlueMatt> yea, but as long as the code is still coming from the servers...
1470 2011-07-19 14:46:03 <TD> but it can't spend your coins
1471 2011-07-19 14:46:09 <TD> right. that's the other issue.
1472 2011-07-19 14:46:17 <BlueMatt> yea, but that could be easily fixed
1473 2011-07-19 14:46:26 <TD> i don't know about easily
1474 2011-07-19 14:46:31 <TD> users can't read the code they are running
1475 2011-07-19 14:46:33 <BlueMatt> in an android app ic could be
1476 2011-07-19 14:46:35 <TD> developers need to be able to update the app
1477 2011-07-19 14:46:44 <BlueMatt> true, but its still a bit more secure
1478 2011-07-19 14:46:46 <TD> how does the average user tell the difference between "bad" updates and "good" updates
1479 2011-07-19 14:46:57 <TD> i think this will become a larger issue in future
1480 2011-07-19 14:47:03 <BlueMatt> thats true...
1481 2011-07-19 14:47:05 <nanotube> signatures from the developers?
1482 2011-07-19 14:47:09 <TD> my gut feeling is that native android apps are a bit more secure, because they are signed
1483 2011-07-19 14:47:12 <TD> and the signing can be done offline
1484 2011-07-19 14:47:15 <nanotube> and the updater automatically checking said signatures?
1485 2011-07-19 14:47:17 <TD> web apps can't really be signed that way
1486 2011-07-19 14:47:22 <TD> yeah that's what android does already
1487 2011-07-19 14:47:27 <TD> it doesn't quite fit the web model though
1488 2011-07-19 14:47:42 <TD> i don't know if you could add it on top. as you're already doing EC crypto in javascript, perhaps it'd be possible.
1489 2011-07-19 14:47:57 <gmaxwell> At some point people will want private key stores the sign transactions ... e.g. hardware fobs. Could just be used with a webwallet too.
1490 2011-07-19 14:48:15 <gmaxwell> So then the local sign part isn't part of the webapp.
1491 2011-07-19 14:48:37 <BlueMatt> before I use a phone-wallet, I want atleast a really good backup solution as a part
1492 2011-07-19 14:48:44 <TD> html can't access that kind of hardware
1493 2011-07-19 14:49:45 erus` has joined
1494 2011-07-19 14:50:11 <gmaxwell> TD: it almost can, it certantly can with a addon/plugin.
1495 2011-07-19 14:50:20 <b4epoche> well, maybe we can get web-fob (like webGL)
1496 2011-07-19 14:50:21 <BlueMatt> is stephan doing a backup service for his app?
1497 2011-07-19 14:50:26 <BlueMatt> encrypted wallet backups
1498 2011-07-19 14:50:57 <gmaxwell> Almost, meaning, that if the device emulates a usb hid (like yubikey) or bluetooth keyboard, it can input the result of signing.. just no way to get the transaction into thedevice.
1499 2011-07-19 14:50:59 <b4epoche> stephen?
1500 2011-07-19 14:51:05 <TD> stefan
1501 2011-07-19 14:51:08 fnord0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1503 2011-07-19 14:51:12 <b4epoche> stefan?
1504 2011-07-19 14:51:13 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry
1505 2011-07-19 14:51:23 <TD> he's doing the deterministic wallet thing
1506 2011-07-19 14:51:29 <BlueMatt> oh, yuck
1507 2011-07-19 14:51:32 <TD> lol
1508 2011-07-19 14:51:41 <TD> just give up, you'll have to implement your own client one day ;)
1509 2011-07-19 14:51:46 <TD> BlueCoin
1510 2011-07-19 14:51:54 <BlueMatt> lol
1511 2011-07-19 14:52:05 fnord0 has joined
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1513 2011-07-19 14:52:26 <gmaxwell> TD: apparently there are lots of proposals for smartcard interfaces for browser apps.
1514 2011-07-19 14:52:33 <BlueMatt> still, I prefer a pre-generated wallet that reuses keys over time than a deterministic one...
1515 2011-07-19 14:53:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yuck on key reuse. Whats your issue with deterministic wallets?
1516 2011-07-19 14:53:12 <nanotube> BlueMatt: isn't that the same thing? having a pregenerated set of keys that get reused over time == deterministic ?
1517 2011-07-19 14:53:40 <nanotube> (i.e. your one backup is good forever) ?
1518 2011-07-19 14:53:40 <BlueMatt> nanotube: no its not, and the advantage is even if it is pregenerated, you can add more later on
1519 2011-07-19 14:54:01 <graingert> BlueMatt: that is the current behaivour
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1521 2011-07-19 14:54:06 <BlueMatt> graingert: no its not
1522 2011-07-19 14:54:07 <nanotube> ah so by deterministic you mean generating all keys from some starting seed values
1523 2011-07-19 14:54:26 <BlueMatt> nanotube: yea deterministic means all you need is the password and you have the wallet, forever
1524 2011-07-19 14:54:32 <gmaxwell> no.
1525 2011-07-19 14:54:34 <nanotube> graingert: currently keys don't get reused, number of keys grows forever
1526 2011-07-19 14:54:36 <BlueMatt> which is the problem I have...
1527 2011-07-19 14:54:36 <graingert> nanotube, the suggestion is to use keys like that for emergancies
1528 2011-07-19 14:54:45 <gmaxwell> Thats not deterministic. Thats moronic.
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1530 2011-07-19 14:55:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that is the deterministic everyone is talking about
1531 2011-07-19 14:55:02 <nanotube> hehe we need to get our terminology straight
1532 2011-07-19 14:55:04 <gmaxwell> I think deterministic wallets are a good idea. Ones based on a user selected password are stupid.
1533 2011-07-19 14:55:18 <BlueMatt> well, ok user selected or random dat
1534 2011-07-19 14:55:19 <BlueMatt> a
1535 2011-07-19 14:55:20 <BlueMatt> either way
1536 2011-07-19 14:55:30 <graingert> gmaxwell, not quite - you should have a set of pregenerated keys , say 100
1537 2011-07-19 14:55:32 <gmaxwell> Well, its way different.
1538 2011-07-19 14:55:41 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: you see those botnet numbers?
1539 2011-07-19 14:55:54 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: was it you interested in the botnet ip list?
1540 2011-07-19 14:55:55 <gmaxwell> nanotube: See, http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1541 2011-07-19 14:55:56 <iddo> the deterministic wallet with starting seed might be insecure, the randomness assumption on sha256 for single invocation is a less strong assumption than creating pseudorandom sequence of sha256 values
1542 2011-07-19 14:55:57 <graingert> gmaxwell, and then warn when you run out and switch to using keys generated from the last used private key
1543 2011-07-19 14:56:12 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: Yes, I'd like to compare them with nodes running bitcoin and behaving weird.
1544 2011-07-19 14:56:16 <graingert> gmaxwell, and then go back to useing pregenerated after an rpc backup is called
1545 2011-07-19 14:56:38 <graingert> gmaxwell, I think this calls for a flow chart...
1546 2011-07-19 14:56:45 <gmaxwell> graingert: I know what you're talking about.
1547 2011-07-19 14:56:55 <gmaxwell> I don't think any chart is required. It's not complicated.
1548 2011-07-19 14:57:29 <graingert> gmaxwell, so basically you get a warning that you can press go away, that calls the backup command and then does > /dev/null
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1550 2011-07-19 14:57:30 <gmaxwell> During the time of reuse it may have totally screwed up your privacy, however, it only takes one transaction to link two address clusters. But thats currently a lost cause with the client in any case.
1551 2011-07-19 14:57:56 copumpkin has joined
1552 2011-07-19 14:57:58 <gmaxwell> graingert: thats all needlessly complex, and still difficult for users to understand.
1553 2011-07-19 14:58:17 Optimo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1554 2011-07-19 14:58:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: personally, I dont care in the slightest if everyone knows my balance...
1555 2011-07-19 14:58:23 <gmaxwell> And if any part of that wallet is compromised the sound advice will be to treat the whole thing as compromised.
1556 2011-07-19 14:58:29 <BlueMatt> but seriously, key reuse can be done right
1557 2011-07-19 14:58:43 <graingert> gmaxwell, all users will see is a message stating, "please backup your wallet" with the options: [I don't care, backup..., go insecure]
1558 2011-07-19 14:58:53 <gmaxwell> No, it can't not without killing the only advantage of a non-determinstic wallet.
1559 2011-07-19 14:59:35 <nanotube> gmaxwell: seems that 'type1' based on pregenerated random seed is equivalent to one based on user selected pw (only difference is quality of random seed)
1560 2011-07-19 14:59:42 <iddo> maybe the wallet can be compromised even if no part of it was compromised, i.e. just by looking at public addresses that were created deterministically
1561 2011-07-19 14:59:51 <gmaxwell> The only advantage of the non-determinstic wallet is that your wallet becomes unstolen over time. Which does you no good when you run out of keys and reuse an old one... which has been stolen, and which the attacker notices the use of and instantly steals any coins that go into it.
1562 2011-07-19 15:00:31 <iddo> thats not the only advantage
1563 2011-07-19 15:00:45 <gmaxwell> nanotube: Yes, but that difference is material, enormously so. No one in the world will ever randomly generate the same 256 bit value as you, no matter how hard they try or how smart theyare.
1564 2011-07-19 15:00:47 <graingert> gmaxwell, hence the insecure mode warning
1565 2011-07-19 15:01:06 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1566 2011-07-19 15:01:23 <graingert> gmaxwell, I don't see how displaying that dialogue would be confusing
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1568 2011-07-19 15:02:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its not a question of the advantage of non-deterministic wallets, its a question of the advantage of deterministic wallets, which the only thing is easier backups
1569 2011-07-19 15:02:08 <gmaxwell> graingert: Everything is confusing. "I'm trying to send money, why is it telling me I have to make a backup?!" "I recieved 200 transactions, why isn't it telling me to backup yet? I thought the limit was 100"
1570 2011-07-19 15:02:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if you are on a connected device, why do you need easier backups?
1571 2011-07-19 15:02:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: not just easier, but backups which don't silently fail on people.
1572 2011-07-19 15:02:40 <graingert> gmaxwell, that's why you would have a help link for those questions
1573 2011-07-19 15:02:49 <gmaxwell> Because you should have backups offline. 0_o
1574 2011-07-19 15:02:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but if you are on an android phone, backups can be done every second of every day
1575 2011-07-19 15:03:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: when you do manual backups, deterministic wallets are nice, when you do them automatically, there is no need
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1579 2011-07-19 15:03:30 <graingert> gmaxwell, people need to be made aware of the requirement to backup
1580 2011-07-19 15:03:41 <gmaxwell> Okay, I'm not arguing about what a phone should do. I don't have an opinion there. Having coins on a phone is kinda stupid IMO.
1581 2011-07-19 15:04:03 <gmaxwell> graingert: no. We need to not have treacherous backups.
1582 2011-07-19 15:04:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: now that I mostly agree with
1583 2011-07-19 15:04:14 <graingert> gmaxwell, what does that mean?
1584 2011-07-19 15:04:32 <b4epoche> gmaxwell: I think there will inevitably be savings accounts on desktops and checking accounts on phones
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1586 2011-07-19 15:04:43 Optimo has joined
1587 2011-07-19 15:04:44 <gmaxwell> graingert: A user should never be in the case where they have one or more good and readable backups, but then still lost all of their coins.
1588 2011-07-19 15:04:57 WakiMiko has joined
1589 2011-07-19 15:05:04 <graingert> gmaxwell, I don't see how that could happen with this scheme
1590 2011-07-19 15:05:20 <graingert> gmaxwell, if they click "I don't want to backup" then they are fooked if they lose it
1591 2011-07-19 15:05:43 <graingert> if they click "I want to backup" then generate 100 more addresses and backup the wallet
1592 2011-07-19 15:05:59 <BlueMatt> in any case, deterministic wallets are almost never a solution, the real solution is to automate your backups
1593 2011-07-19 15:06:02 <gmaxwell> graingert: And what if they are in the middle of a meeting, in another state, and send a single transaction... and have no access to their backup medium, which is at home a thousand miles away.
1594 2011-07-19 15:06:09 <graingert> if they click "I can't make a backup yet" drop into deterministic backup mode
1595 2011-07-19 15:06:22 <graingert> gmaxwell, one step ahead of you ;)
1596 2011-07-19 15:06:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can't automate putting a backup into a safe.
1597 2011-07-19 15:06:39 <graingert> deterministic key gen mode*
1598 2011-07-19 15:06:40 <gmaxwell> graingert: and if they reuse an old address then a bad guy steals all their coins.
1599 2011-07-19 15:06:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that is one of the very few cases where deterministic wallets make sense
1600 2011-07-19 15:07:03 <graingert> gmaxwell, deterministic mode does not reuse old addresses
1601 2011-07-19 15:07:03 <gmaxwell> Also: the wallet grows over time making it harder to back up reliably.
1602 2011-07-19 15:07:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ie when you need crazy level of backups, but if you encrypt your damn backups, putting them in public is probably better than putting them in a safe anyway
1603 2011-07-19 15:07:25 <graingert> gmaxwell, it generated derived addresses based on the last known good privkey in backup
1604 2011-07-19 15:07:30 <graingert> generates*
1605 2011-07-19 15:07:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, because everyone chooses terrible keys.
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1607 2011-07-19 15:07:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, aside from that...
1608 2011-07-19 15:07:45 <iddo> i think that some retail stores operators etc. prefer to have a bitcoin address without privacy, so they can establish their reputation... for that purpose a constant wallet that pre-generates and reuses N=1 (instead of N=100) keys is useful
1609 2011-07-19 15:08:14 <gmaxwell> iddo: thats a bad idea, because it compromises their customers privacy too.
1610 2011-07-19 15:08:14 <graingert> iddo, no that should not be encourages as that breaks tx identification
1611 2011-07-19 15:08:30 <graingert> I really can't type on this keyboard
1612 2011-07-19 15:08:30 <iddo> hmm
1613 2011-07-19 15:08:31 <gmaxwell> (and yes, it stops them from figuring out that they've been paid)
1614 2011-07-19 15:08:53 <graingert> gmaxwell, do you see my point yet btwar?
1615 2011-07-19 15:08:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: maybe you can have a deterministic wallet with limited time use (enforced by the client)
1616 2011-07-19 15:09:07 <graingert> gmaxwell, I figure I have rebuked your comments
1617 2011-07-19 15:09:25 <gmaxwell> graingert: Yes, I see what you're saying. But you only did so by adopting my scheme and most of its limitations, congrats.
1618 2011-07-19 15:09:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and imo everyone has lost sight of the problem that deterministic wallets are trying to solve and people arent trying to solve it, they are just working around it
1619 2011-07-19 15:09:29 <sipa> that is equivalent in security to an encrypted wallet
1620 2011-07-19 15:09:57 <graingert> gmaxwell, only most :p
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1622 2011-07-19 15:10:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: being able to have save a kiliobit of data, once, put it in a safe and recover it later is the problem I want to solve.
1623 2011-07-19 15:10:15 <sipa> after a time the client would make you generate a new one, and you'd to make a new one
1624 2011-07-19 15:10:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ALSO, being able to generate unbounded new keys without the ability to spend them.
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1626 2011-07-19 15:10:26 <graingert> gmaxwell, ah
1627 2011-07-19 15:10:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, your problem is being able to backup easily and securely everytime you get new keys
1628 2011-07-19 15:11:28 <gmaxwell> Not all backups are equal, for the same reason raid is not a backup. People put things in firesafes for a reason. You can't automate that.
1629 2011-07-19 15:11:34 <graingert> gmaxwell, one thing to do is generate a secure PGP key, and encrypt all the private wallet keys using that
1630 2011-07-19 15:11:38 <BlueMatt> yep
1631 2011-07-19 15:11:40 <graingert> gmaxwell, then publish them
1632 2011-07-19 15:12:00 <gmaxwell> Then get compromised because someone cracked my password.
1633 2011-07-19 15:12:12 <graingert> gmaxwell, and private key
1634 2011-07-19 15:12:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I never said it wasnt hard, I just said its ridiculous to claim that your problem is the desire to store once in a safe, it is not
1635 2011-07-19 15:12:20 <graingert> gmaxwell, which you keep in a safe
1636 2011-07-19 15:12:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but yea, pgp encryption and store the pgp key in a safe works just as well
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1638 2011-07-19 15:12:36 <BlueMatt> then publish the wallet
1639 2011-07-19 15:12:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Well, I have a copy of my offline walletâ ofline, on paper, in a sfe.
1640 2011-07-19 15:12:57 <gmaxwell> Okay, I admit that works.
1641 2011-07-19 15:13:09 <graingert> :D
1642 2011-07-19 15:13:33 <gmaxwell> But I still think it's stupid. Why do all of this encrypt publish crap?
1643 2011-07-19 15:13:37 <iddo> another issue is that advanced users might prefer to keep several different wallet.dat files, so in case one of them got compromised, the others didn't (i.e. don't put all eggs in one basket), so for this purpose having an option for constant wallet with e.g. N=100 pregenerated passwords is good
1644 2011-07-19 15:13:56 <gmaxwell> iddo: I don't see how the second follows from the first.
1645 2011-07-19 15:13:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: because it is, in the end, easier than deterministic wallets
1646 2011-07-19 15:14:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: How is that easier?
1647 2011-07-19 15:14:27 <graingert> gmaxwell, the problem is similar to that of one time pads
1648 2011-07-19 15:14:31 <gmaxwell> There is nothing especially hard about H(Secret + type + index).
1649 2011-07-19 15:14:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: because that solution is already implemented, deterministic wallets, not so much
1650 2011-07-19 15:14:37 <graingert> gmaxwell, people generate a dvd worth of 1tp
1651 2011-07-19 15:14:55 <graingert> gmaxwell, and once they have sent a DVD worth of data what should they do?
1652 2011-07-19 15:15:11 <graingert> gmaxwell, make a new one time pad? reuse the pad? or generate a new pad based on the old one
1653 2011-07-19 15:15:17 <iddo> gmaxwell: if you split you coins among many wallets, and you know what you're doing, you don't need more than N=100 keys in each wallet (or whatever N you choose), so you can have constant wallets this way, and you can run hash on you wallet.dat files and see that no one tempered with them
1654 2011-07-19 15:15:25 <graingert> gmaxwell, the second two will get you killed
1655 2011-07-19 15:15:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no no no, you're not playing fair to argue that all of this hypotetical encryption/backup machinery is part of the non-determinstic solution, and then say the non-deterministic solution already exists.
1656 2011-07-19 15:15:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I use that solution now
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1658 2011-07-19 15:15:51 <graingert> gmaxwell, the first one requires you to meet and might get you killed
1659 2011-07-19 15:16:05 <BlueMatt> regular automatic backups via gpg
1660 2011-07-19 15:16:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No you don'tâ Do 100 sends and then throw out your hdd. I dare you.
1661 2011-07-19 15:16:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it is automatic
1662 2011-07-19 15:16:33 <sipa> deterministic wallet have many advantages over traditional one, and only one disadvantage: automatic expiration, improving security
1663 2011-07-19 15:16:33 <BlueMatt> not quite that automatic, but close enough
1664 2011-07-19 15:16:40 <sipa> wallets
1665 2011-07-19 15:16:55 <BlueMatt> what many advantages
1666 2011-07-19 15:17:00 <BlueMatt> the only one I see is easier backups
1667 2011-07-19 15:17:00 Speeder has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1668 2011-07-19 15:17:02 <gmaxwell> So if you do for i in {0..101} ; ./bitcoind send... and then erase your disk, you'll be fine? Bullishit.
1669 2011-07-19 15:17:03 <BlueMatt> and smaller storage
1670 2011-07-19 15:17:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats true, but it will be fine if I do that and then wait 10 minutes
1671 2011-07-19 15:17:26 <iddo> sipa: you're ignoring whether pseudorandom sequence of sha256 values could be less random than the randomness of single invocation of sha256
1672 2011-07-19 15:17:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and how often will I send 100 times in 10 minutes?
1673 2011-07-19 15:17:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you'rebacking up every 10 minutes?
1674 2011-07-19 15:17:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, checking if I need to backup every 10 minutes
1675 2011-07-19 15:18:02 <graingert> BlueMatt: you only need to reb
1676 2011-07-19 15:18:03 <iddo> nobody here cares if there might be crypto attack on determisitic wallets?
1677 2011-07-19 15:18:04 Speeder has joined
1678 2011-07-19 15:18:08 <graingert> BlueMatt: yep
1679 2011-07-19 15:18:13 <graingert> BlueMatt: :p
1680 2011-07-19 15:18:17 <gmaxwell> Thats a bit crazy... my online wallet is about 400k now, xzed. I back it up once a day. The storage will start becoming problematic in a year or so.
1681 2011-07-19 15:18:23 <BlueMatt> iddo: there isnt
1682 2011-07-19 15:18:32 <mtrlt> only need to back up the keys
1683 2011-07-19 15:18:32 <sipa> iddo: of course, but that is one of the reasons you want them to expire: to switch to a more safe hash function if necessary
1684 2011-07-19 15:18:39 <mtrlt> not all the cruft in wallet.dat
1685 2011-07-19 15:18:44 <gmaxwell> iddo: Or whole systems depends on the security of hashfunctions. It's not a substantial difference.
1686 2011-07-19 15:18:47 <graingert> gmaxwell, you don't need the old ones either
1687 2011-07-19 15:18:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it *checks* if it needs to backup, it almost never does
1688 2011-07-19 15:18:56 <graingert> gmaxwell, so you'll only have double the data
1689 2011-07-19 15:19:31 <gmaxwell> graingert: well, I do, because it could have become corrupted and I may need to go back a ways.
1690 2011-07-19 15:19:54 <iddo> gmaxwell: maybe it is a substantial difference, there could be some attack that looks at public keys and deduces the private keys, when they were generated pseudorandomly
1691 2011-07-19 15:19:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: How does it check? keypoololdest changes every time you have change.
1692 2011-07-19 15:20:03 <graingert> gmaxwell, in that case only keep a few days
1693 2011-07-19 15:20:16 <gmaxwell> iddo: Thats not how it works in any case.
1694 2011-07-19 15:20:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, and that is when it needs to backup, so...
1695 2011-07-19 15:21:14 <iddo> gmaxwell: how it works? you start with a seed and generate the rest of the sequence by some pseudorandom function, no?
1696 2011-07-19 15:21:15 <gmaxwell> iddo: in the type-2 scheme the public and private parts are generated seperately, so it can't be weaker than breaking a single private key at worse, even if your hash function does nothing.
1697 2011-07-19 15:21:36 <iddo> oh
1698 2011-07-19 15:21:45 <iddo> can you elaborate?
1699 2011-07-19 15:21:49 <gmaxwell> I did.
1700 2011-07-19 15:21:53 <gmaxwell> iddo: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1701 2011-07-19 15:21:57 <iddo> how do you generate pk and sk separately?
1702 2011-07-19 15:22:03 <iddo> ok i'll look
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1704 2011-07-19 15:23:19 <iddo> what about my other argument for users who want completely separate wallet so not to put all eggs in one basket? constant wallet option is useful for them
1705 2011-07-19 15:23:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I have no problem with deterministic wallets...I just dont feel comfortable giving my coins up to a single 256-bit random number for no reason. There are many situations where deterministic wallets are good, but people are losing sight of the reason they are being implemented
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1707 2011-07-19 15:24:01 <gmaxwell> iddo: What if users who like to fly aeroplanes. Surely the shovel is good for them.
1708 2011-07-19 15:24:09 <gmaxwell> (I don't follow you)
1709 2011-07-19 15:24:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: esp for a web client or a client that can easily do secure backups
1710 2011-07-19 15:25:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Fundimentally, the assumption that something is online and connected is just a bad assumption for private keying data to begin with. If you can backup so easily then there are a lot of communication pathways you could be compromised over.
1711 2011-07-19 15:25:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: if they have access to your wallet file, you *are* already giving up your coins to a single 25-bit number... but in an expiring way
1712 2011-07-19 15:25:42 <sipa> 256-bit
1713 2011-07-19 15:25:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but keep in mind that the only time you will generate a new key is when you are connected anyway
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1715 2011-07-19 15:26:05 <gmaxwell> iddo: having support multiple wallets would be great, but that can be done regardless of the type of the wallet.
1716 2011-07-19 15:26:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can send without being connected to the internet directly.
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1718 2011-07-19 15:27:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but you do have a keypool for a situation like that, its not like you are going to need 100 new keys while diconnected
1719 2011-07-19 15:28:04 <iddo> gmaxwell: you dont have to add support for multiple wallets, it can be nice but advanced users can do it easily now... my point was that for advanced users who use several wallets, the constant wallet option has the advantage that they can always verify that their walletX.dat files remain the same
1720 2011-07-19 15:28:26 <gmaxwell> Consider the airgapped wallet case. We don't have software for it yet, but there isn't any reason a bitcoin client can't create a prepared transaction for you to sneaker net over to a signing box. (This is how secure ssl CAs are done too)
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1722 2011-07-19 15:28:47 <gmaxwell> iddo: but they don't remain the same, because your wallets also contain other things.
1723 2011-07-19 15:28:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that is something where a deterministic wallet might be the best way to do it, but as you said, we dont have software for it yet
1724 2011-07-19 15:29:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it has advantages, but its not always ideal
1725 2011-07-19 15:30:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: I trust aes way more than sha
1726 2011-07-19 15:30:29 <sipa> you can use aes to generate your private keys as well
1727 2011-07-19 15:30:36 <iddo> gmaxwell: right, for my suggention you might need extra tool that extracts just the keys of your wallet to separate file
1728 2011-07-19 15:30:39 <gmaxwell> I never thought it was ideal, for sure. I was always making an "on the balance" argument. We've seen people get screwed by backups many times.
1729 2011-07-19 15:30:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: hmm...I guess that is true...
1730 2011-07-19 15:30:50 <sipa> with the risk that it can be reversed
1731 2011-07-19 15:31:21 <sipa> i trust aes more than sha as well, but not more yhan pbkdf2
1732 2011-07-19 15:31:29 <gmaxwell> iddo: Okay, but why do you consider it important to check that your keys haven't been changed in any case?
1733 2011-07-19 15:31:29 <sipa> (iterated sha)
1734 2011-07-19 15:32:12 <gmaxwell> You can convert AES into an non-reversable transform easly enough. Just use long block encryption mode and throw away half of the output.
1735 2011-07-19 15:32:27 <sipa> indeed
1736 2011-07-19 15:32:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep
1737 2011-07-19 15:32:44 <sipa> and combine it with some sha and ec steps as well
1738 2011-07-19 15:32:51 <sipa> maybe scrypt :p
1739 2011-07-19 15:33:10 <BlueMatt> lol
1740 2011-07-19 15:33:12 <BlueMatt> yea
1741 2011-07-19 15:33:15 <gmaxwell> yea, I'm not opposed to (carefully) excessive crypto. ;)
1742 2011-07-19 15:33:30 <BlueMatt> well, in any case, random keys is still a bit more secure than deterministic wallets...
1743 2011-07-19 15:33:38 <copumpkin> excessive crypto is fun!
1744 2011-07-19 15:34:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, though in a pretty abstract way. I recall sipa and I bludgeoning you about the constant salt 1000 iteration wallet crypto not long ago. ;)
1745 2011-07-19 15:34:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ...yea...
1746 2011-07-19 15:35:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd to suggest a new generalized key type in the wallet, where the key is the address, and the value is pubkey + data for obtaining the privkey (which can be either a. unencrypted, b. encrypted evp-sha512, c. not stored at all)
1747 2011-07-19 15:36:09 <sipa> like
1748 2011-07-19 15:36:12 <iddo> gmaxwell: it's not that important, just feature that some users might consider nice (to know that a wallet.dat file of your with many coins always remains the same) - the important part was that several completely separate wallets can be considered important, and having constant wallets is that scenario is nice
1749 2011-07-19 15:36:24 <sipa> c. being for airgapped wallet
1750 2011-07-19 15:36:28 <gmaxwell> Hm. Could we store the time the backuprpc is run and have some notice when you're exposed.
1751 2011-07-19 15:36:48 <gmaxwell> iddo: you're still fish-bicycling me there. I don't see at all why constant wallets have anything to do with seperate wallets.
1752 2011-07-19 15:36:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: wait, im mixing things
1753 2011-07-19 15:37:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, that was very unrelated
1754 2011-07-19 15:37:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: for airgapped wallets you really want a lot more thanthat. You want the ability to store unsigned transactions. Then to pull them out for signing and import them back in.
1755 2011-07-19 15:37:55 <sipa> it would be a. unencrypted b. encrypted with whatever masterkey available, c. not known
1756 2011-07-19 15:38:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: oglf course, it's only part of the solution
1757 2011-07-19 15:39:18 <gmaxwell> Why do we do right now when you try to send without having the private key?
1758 2011-07-19 15:39:31 <iddo> gmaxwell: i'm trying to say that we accept as premise that some user is gonna keep separate wallets manually, then he would probably prefer constant wallet option if it was available, it has the advantage of always being able to verify the integrity of his files
1759 2011-07-19 15:39:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: it will fail to sign
1760 2011-07-19 15:39:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: does it really actually need to be yet another new wallet type...just add one more for no key
1761 2011-07-19 15:40:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: we need a new key type to make it indexed by address
1762 2011-07-19 15:40:19 <gmaxwell> iddo: well, he can't anways because of the other data which is stored in the wallet (the wallet's transactions, for example)
1763 2011-07-19 15:40:20 <BlueMatt> why break backward compatibility...again?
1764 2011-07-19 15:40:24 <sipa> that's all
1765 2011-07-19 15:40:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: I was under the impression that was impossible due to ip payouts and keygen payouts?
1766 2011-07-19 15:40:58 <sipa> hmm?
1767 2011-07-19 15:41:10 <BlueMatt> we have to know public key to know if they are ours?
1768 2011-07-19 15:41:16 <sipa> yes
1769 2011-07-19 15:41:18 <iddo> gmaxwell: i'm still trying to understand your type-2 deterministic wallet... i don't think that i agree with your claim that it's just as safe as randomally generated key, i think that the nice idea there is that you can generate public keys without knowing the secret key
1770 2011-07-19 15:41:22 mmoya has joined
1771 2011-07-19 15:41:33 <sipa> but you can find them if you have the address
1772 2011-07-19 15:41:39 <gmaxwell> iddo: the argument that it's as safe is trivial.
1773 2011-07-19 15:41:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats true, but seems overly inefficient
1774 2011-07-19 15:41:54 <sipa> ?
1775 2011-07-19 15:42:01 <sipa> it's the only way
1776 2011-07-19 15:42:09 <BlueMatt> to hash the pubkey for each gen tx to check if its ours?
1777 2011-07-19 15:42:13 <gmaxwell> iddo: I give you one of my public keys. You use the scheme listed there to generate many public keys based on mine. Am I now less secure?
1778 2011-07-19 15:42:13 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1780 2011-07-19 15:42:47 <iddo> hmm
1781 2011-07-19 15:42:51 <devrandom> BlueMatt: sure
1782 2011-07-19 15:42:56 <devrandom> (re wxwidgets 2.9.2)
1783 2011-07-19 15:43:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's insignificant compared to do signature checking
1784 2011-07-19 15:43:16 <sipa> just one more hash per block
1785 2011-07-19 15:43:30 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ok, it seems to be being indeterministic for me atm...Im looking into it, Ill push when I get it
1786 2011-07-19 15:43:48 <gmaxwell> iddo: the one aspect of less security is the risk of being able to link keys, which is at least thoretically weaker, I agree. But it requires reversing the hash function completely, which is the hardest attack... and also just breaks privacy.
1787 2011-07-19 15:43:52 ar4s has joined
1788 2011-07-19 15:43:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: meh true, we should start paying out blocks to addresses now anyway
1789 2011-07-19 15:43:58 <BlueMatt> just to be better
1790 2011-07-19 15:44:02 <sipa> no need
1791 2011-07-19 15:44:11 <devrandom> BlueMatt: specific object files are changing, or...?
1792 2011-07-19 15:44:16 ar4s has left ()
1793 2011-07-19 15:44:23 <sipa> pay to pubkey is smaller in blockchain
1794 2011-07-19 15:44:31 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yea, could be my compile options...I got sidetracked...
1795 2011-07-19 15:44:31 <sipa> anyway, gtg
1796 2011-07-19 15:44:41 sipa has left ()
1797 2011-07-19 15:44:46 <gmaxwell> It's smaller in the blockchain eventually, at least.
1798 2011-07-19 15:45:12 <gmaxwell> though eligius' paying from the coinbase is smaller still in the pool case where they're going to pay the users right away in any case.
1799 2011-07-19 15:46:45 <BlueMatt> oh, god Im not thinking straight anyway, ignore me...
1800 2011-07-19 15:48:16 BlehTM has joined
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1803 2011-07-19 15:49:10 <iddo> gmaxwell: i'm not that familiar with elliptic curves, what you wrote in forum confuses me, why iddo: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1804 2011-07-19 15:49:18 <iddo> oops bad paste
1805 2011-07-19 15:49:25 <iddo> i mean
1806 2011-07-19 15:49:37 <iddo> why Publickey(type,n) = Master_public_key + H(n|S|type)*point is ok?
1807 2011-07-19 15:49:58 <iddo> and not Publickey(type,n) = (Master_public_key + H(n|S|type))*point ?
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1811 2011-07-19 15:51:41 <gmaxwell> iddo: because the public_key is already private_key*point. Setting public_2 to public + x*point; lets us have private2 which is simply private+x.
1812 2011-07-19 15:52:46 <iddo> i'm a little confused
1813 2011-07-19 15:53:02 <iddo> how would you attack it by linking keys, as you said ?
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1815 2011-07-19 15:53:45 <iddo> the attacker only see the public keys ?
1816 2011-07-19 15:55:23 <iddo> and yes i agree with your last comment, i was confused
1817 2011-07-19 15:57:08 <gmaxwell> Thats assuming H() was horribly insecure. If H is secure then the scheme is secure even for privacy purposes.
1818 2011-07-19 15:58:00 <iddo> but how would you attack by linking keys? only the pubkeys are published
1819 2011-07-19 15:58:57 <gmaxwell> Right, for example, if you knew the sequence H() would output then from knowing one public key you could know all the past and future public keys.
1820 2011-07-19 15:59:28 <gmaxwell> You still couldn't spend any of the coins, but you'd know the addresses.
1821 2011-07-19 15:59:30 <iddo> so that's not an attack that finds the private keys
1822 2011-07-19 15:59:33 <iddo> ok
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1824 2011-07-19 16:00:13 <gmaxwell> Correct. There is no attack directly from this that finds the private key. Finding the private key still involves cracking ECC.
1825 2011-07-19 16:00:22 <iddo> so you just mean that if the hash is insecure, then breaking the ECDSA and finding one private key allows you to find more private keys
1826 2011-07-19 16:00:29 <gmaxwell> Thats true too.
1827 2011-07-19 16:00:48 <iddo> what is ECC ? error correcting code?
1828 2011-07-19 16:01:05 <iddo> elliptic curve crypto ?
1829 2011-07-19 16:01:09 <BlueMatt> elliptic curve crypto
1830 2011-07-19 16:01:11 <gmaxwell> Elliptic curve cryptography.
1831 2011-07-19 16:01:15 <iddo> ok
1832 2011-07-19 16:01:33 <BlueMatt> also error correcting code, but not in this case
1833 2011-07-19 16:02:37 wasabi2 has joined
1834 2011-07-19 16:03:02 <gmaxwell> Also Electronic climate control and Ethiopian Catholic Church.
1835 2011-07-19 16:03:06 <copumpkin> man, I want my ECC memory to use ECC signatures to verify my bits
1836 2011-07-19 16:03:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: lol
1837 2011-07-19 16:03:23 <copumpkin> so it's not just error-correcting, but adversary-resistant
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1840 2011-07-19 16:03:38 <copumpkin> no adversaries with cosmic rays can screw with my RAM, man
1841 2011-07-19 16:04:01 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: better use ECC memory, a single unlucky bitflip in a ECDSA signing operation can allow an attacker to completely recover your private key.
1842 2011-07-19 16:04:47 <gmaxwell> (and, in fact, the curve bitcoin uses is more vulnerable to this than most, according to some paper)
1843 2011-07-19 16:08:38 <phantomcircuit> just do it twice and compare the results ;)
1844 2011-07-19 16:09:22 <phantomcircuit> you can be like the old guy who loops through variables to keep them in ram
1845 2011-07-19 16:09:24 <phantomcircuit> xD
1846 2011-07-19 16:09:37 <gmaxwell> Indeed. Or validate the signature after signing, which I think bitcoin does.
1847 2011-07-19 16:09:47 <phantomcircuit> ah yes that would do to
1848 2011-07-19 16:10:07 <gmaxwell> Actually I think it validates it twice... once directly after signing, and once when it does accepttomemory before sending.
1849 2011-07-19 16:10:12 <iddo> gmaxwell: so i agree that type-2 isn't less secure than breaking a single instance of ECC, because the attacker doesnt get any info at all other than what he could generate by himself by pk+x by choosing whatever x he wants, so the only leaked info on the sk comes only from the initial pk
1850 2011-07-19 16:10:29 <iddo> so this kind of deterministic wallet is nice, i changed my mind:)
1851 2011-07-19 16:10:35 <gmaxwell> Thanks. :)
1852 2011-07-19 16:11:35 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1853 2011-07-19 16:11:40 <phantomcircuit> what time is it in japan?
1854 2011-07-19 16:12:06 <phantomcircuit> 1am
1855 2011-07-19 16:12:07 <phantomcircuit> bah
1856 2011-07-19 16:12:18 <senseles> uhh
1857 2011-07-19 16:12:29 <senseles> 12:10
1858 2011-07-19 16:12:42 <phantomcircuit> it's 1:09am in tokyo
1859 2011-07-19 16:12:45 <phantomcircuit> or is my clock fucked
1860 2011-07-19 16:12:54 Ameshk has joined
1861 2011-07-19 16:12:58 <senseles> i could be an hour behind not sure if they're in the same TZ as me
1862 2011-07-19 16:13:03 <senseles> thought they were
1863 2011-07-19 16:13:10 <phantomcircuit> JST is GMT +7
1864 2011-07-19 16:13:19 <senseles> Anyone here familiar with the xilinx ISE software? I had some questions regarding their pricing model
1865 2011-07-19 16:13:46 aristidesfl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1868 2011-07-19 16:14:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: https://github.com/jine/bitlc-pushpool/blob/master/0003-Pushpoold-optimizations-by-JoelKatz.patch
1869 2011-07-19 16:16:06 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i never bothered to look, whats the protocol for pushpoold?
1870 2011-07-19 16:16:28 <jine> phantomcircuit: json-rpc as everything else?
1871 2011-07-19 16:16:31 <luke-jr> jgarzik: also, if the "keep-alive" patch gets submitted, I recommend not merging it :p
1872 2011-07-19 16:16:40 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: JSON-RPC plus jgarzik's binary protocol
1873 2011-07-19 16:16:46 <phantomcircuit> uh
1874 2011-07-19 16:16:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
1875 2011-07-19 16:16:50 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
1876 2011-07-19 16:16:58 <iddo> regarding the constant wallet suggestion, even if wallet.dat keeps changing, after creating the initial wallet you can use dumpprivkeys RPC command and have text file of the keys of this wallet that you can always verify
1877 2011-07-19 16:17:03 * phantomcircuit goes back to work
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1879 2011-07-19 16:18:19 freewil`away is now known as freewil
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1881 2011-07-19 16:19:37 <phantomcircuit> so i got bored and realized a design for an exchange that could handle nearly unlimited traffic
1882 2011-07-19 16:19:49 Clipse has joined
1883 2011-07-19 16:19:50 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1884 2011-07-19 16:19:51 <phantomcircuit> but is complicated as all hell
1885 2011-07-19 16:20:56 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1886 2011-07-19 16:21:16 <AndyBr_> how do i lower the bar for what api calls transaction category "immature"?
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1888 2011-07-19 16:21:27 Marf has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1889 2011-07-19 16:22:00 <phantomcircuit> AndyBr_, minconf
1890 2011-07-19 16:22:22 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1893 2011-07-19 16:23:47 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, tell us about it!
1894 2011-07-19 16:24:04 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, streaming market
1895 2011-07-19 16:24:19 <forrestv> i was thinking that an exchange could implement their own blockchain with rules that follow the exchange
1896 2011-07-19 16:24:30 <phantomcircuit> that would be lol slow
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1898 2011-07-19 16:25:01 <forrestv> yeah, but it's possible and semi-decentralized
1899 2011-07-19 16:25:40 <phantomcircuit> not really
1900 2011-07-19 16:25:47 <phantomcircuit> you'd have counter party risk still
1901 2011-07-19 16:25:50 <BlueMatt> what is it with the bitcoin community's obsession with block chains...its a good way for a p2p network to agree on shit, but seriously? its not the only way
1902 2011-07-19 16:25:53 <phantomcircuit> which is the entire point of an exchange
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1905 2011-07-19 16:27:05 <justmoon> aren't mtgox working on an "exchange chain" like that? where different exchanges issue their own "currencies" like mtgoxusd?
1906 2011-07-19 16:27:15 <justmoon> I think they mentioned that when they were on bruce's show
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1908 2011-07-19 16:28:14 <BlueMatt> please tell me thats not true
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1911 2011-07-19 16:30:17 <justmoon> BlueMatt, well it did sound like they're working on it in their free time, which I imagine isn't a lot, so I might never be finished :P
1912 2011-07-19 16:30:39 <BlueMatt> I sure as hell hope so...that just seems like a terrible idea
1913 2011-07-19 16:31:09 <groffer> phantomcircuit: could use in-blockchain escrow to eliminate counterparty risk
1914 2011-07-19 16:31:10 <justmoon> BlueMatt, really? I actually thought the design sounded quite sensible. all it does basically is remove the single point of failure that is the mtgox website
1915 2011-07-19 16:31:41 <justmoon> it doesn't help against mtgox the company going belly-up of course, but it would be nice to be able to keep trading if the website is down
1916 2011-07-19 16:31:49 <BlueMatt> justmoon: but...why? there are a ton of exchanges plus its still a spof of transferring usd into mtgoxusd
1917 2011-07-19 16:31:49 <phantomcircuit> i can assure you there is no plan to do that with a block chain
1918 2011-07-19 16:32:05 <BlueMatt> justmoon: plus it would be a terrible business idea
1919 2011-07-19 16:32:10 <justmoon> BlueMatt, hehe, true
1920 2011-07-19 16:32:19 <gmaxwell> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
1921 2011-07-19 16:33:10 <gmaxwell> also, the bitcoin security model isn't useful at high speeds, and the blockchain isn't that great a data structure absent the bitcoin security model.
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1924 2011-07-19 16:33:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats my point
1925 2011-07-19 16:33:36 <BlueMatt> it would be sooo damn slow
1926 2011-07-19 16:33:53 <groffer> with escrow you can eliminate the scenario of the exchange losing coins
1927 2011-07-19 16:33:56 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,stats
1928 2011-07-19 16:33:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137071 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 16 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 hours, 22 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1692319.42052987
1929 2011-07-19 16:34:17 baibai has joined
1930 2011-07-19 16:34:26 <baibai> hello
1931 2011-07-19 16:34:28 <gmaxwell> naughty naughty. The current difficulty is 1563027.99611622. Gribble is running an oldbitcoind or something.
1932 2011-07-19 16:34:31 <groffer> the escrow doesn't have to be redone with every transaction, only when paying out/in
1933 2011-07-19 16:34:48 <BlueMatt> nanotube: running an old bitcoind???
1934 2011-07-19 16:34:50 baibai has quit (Client Quit)
1935 2011-07-19 16:36:25 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/q/getdifficulty
1936 2011-07-19 16:36:31 <gmaxwell> gives 1564057.4508376
1937 2011-07-19 16:36:36 <BlueMatt> oh, its theymos
1938 2011-07-19 16:36:50 <nanotube> BlueMatt: no :P heh
1939 2011-07-19 16:37:24 freewil is now known as freewil`away
1940 2011-07-19 16:37:46 <gmaxwell> Hm. I wonder if I can tell if http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ is on a current bitcoin now.
1941 2011-07-19 16:37:48 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1942 2011-07-19 16:38:00 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
1943 2011-07-19 16:38:01 <gribble> 137072
1944 2011-07-19 16:38:29 Ambriely has joined
1945 2011-07-19 16:39:20 aristidesfl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1946 2011-07-19 16:39:21 freewil`away is now known as freewil`awayforr
1947 2011-07-19 16:40:42 <gmaxwell> It still seems to be treating 0.0005 feed transactions as no fee, but that might just be a display issue.
1948 2011-07-19 16:41:16 erus` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1949 2011-07-19 16:41:34 erus` has joined
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1951 2011-07-19 16:42:31 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I presume that's a display issue
1952 2011-07-19 16:42:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: BTW, your canary is now first in tab completion
1953 2011-07-19 16:43:15 <phantomcircuit> aaakllllllllllllllllfdjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjskkfffffjaljfoiewhgfuviahnfiuhaeirfuhasifhaisdfnvalisdnfkxjndfgiuhreituvnslhdufhslerutfhaslievurhtfsndrtfghlisdhgliuherslghsdhgliurygtvslifghslidfhg
1954 2011-07-19 16:43:42 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: let me guess - cat on keyboard?
1955 2011-07-19 16:43:46 <nanotube> heh
1956 2011-07-19 16:43:49 <wardearia> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaartttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkpppppppppppppppppppp
1957 2011-07-19 16:43:54 gmax-canary has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1958 2011-07-19 16:43:54 <wardearia> nanotube, no, that is cat on keyboard
1959 2011-07-19 16:43:59 <wardearia> phantomcircuit has a dancing cat
1960 2011-07-19 16:44:31 <b4epoche> so, I was doing things like: for (map<vector<unsigned char>, CPrivKey>::iterator it = pwalletMain->mapKeys.begin(); it != pwalletMain->mapKeys.end(); ++it) {} for my QR coded wallet dump
1961 2011-07-19 16:44:36 <BlueMatt> wardearia: did you have to demonstrate that?
1962 2011-07-19 16:44:42 <wardearia> BlueMatt, I think so
1963 2011-07-19 16:44:46 <b4epoche> but mapKeys is now protected
1964 2011-07-19 16:44:50 <Eliel_> after reading gmaxwell's thread about deterministic wallets and why it ought to be default in bitcoin. I'm inclined to agree.
1965 2011-07-19 16:44:56 gmax has joined
1966 2011-07-19 16:44:57 again has joined
1967 2011-07-19 16:45:02 <justmoon> BlueMatt, one spammy message says more than a thousand words ;)
1968 2011-07-19 16:45:06 <Eliel_> losing the wallet is a bigger danger for most users than getting their bitcoins stolen
1969 2011-07-19 16:45:08 <justmoon> ..or something
1970 2011-07-19 16:45:11 gmax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1971 2011-07-19 16:45:16 <BlueMatt> justmoon: for some reason I kinda dont believe that?
1972 2011-07-19 16:45:34 <b4epoche> is there a map of all the keys accessible?
1973 2011-07-19 16:45:35 <justmoon> Eliel_, I lost 7000 coins, so I'm with you 100% on that :)
1974 2011-07-19 16:45:39 gmax has joined
1975 2011-07-19 16:45:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Thanks, should be fixed now.
1976 2011-07-19 16:46:00 <lianj> justmoon: yikes
1977 2011-07-19 16:46:00 <gmaxwell> well darn it.
1978 2011-07-19 16:46:09 <gmaxwell> I don't know how the autocomplete works then.
1979 2011-07-19 16:46:17 Speeder has joined
1980 2011-07-19 16:46:45 <gmaxwell> Is it still first or is my personal autocomplete just smart enough to not let me talk to myself?
1981 2011-07-19 16:46:48 <nanotube> gmaxwell: depends on the client. the smart ones give preference to last-spoke
1982 2011-07-19 16:46:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yep, thanks
1983 2011-07-19 16:46:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no its better
1984 2011-07-19 16:46:56 <Eliel_> justmoon: ouch, that's not nice. I might never even have that many :P
1985 2011-07-19 16:47:11 <nanotube> gmaxwell: (that's what i have on my xchat, and never even had any awareness of the canary
1986 2011-07-19 16:47:13 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yea but since it hasn't been speaking I'd assumed his was using ascii order.
1987 2011-07-19 16:47:35 <justmoon> nanotube, is that a plugin? (I'm on xchat, and I don't think mine does that)
1988 2011-07-19 16:47:49 <gmaxwell> nanotube: the canary will only speak if the bitcoin node its monitoring crashes or throws a valgrind error.
1989 2011-07-19 16:48:13 <gmaxwell> I think IRSSI does what nanotube describes, but I dunno that it's always better... makes it kind of non-deterministic.
1990 2011-07-19 16:49:20 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1991 2011-07-19 16:49:38 <nanotube> justmoon: no it's built in
1992 2011-07-19 16:50:04 <nanotube> justmoon: settings > preferences > input box > nick completion sorted > last-spoke order
1993 2011-07-19 16:50:23 <justmoon> nanotube, sweeeet
1994 2011-07-19 16:50:27 <justmoon> nanotube, thx :)
1995 2011-07-19 16:50:33 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, i have to tell you that despite being non-deterministic, it sure is a hell of a lot more useful. :)
1996 2011-07-19 16:50:45 mosimo has joined
1997 2011-07-19 16:50:46 <nanotube> justmoon: np :)
1998 2011-07-19 16:50:51 <nanotube> enjoy your newfound powers :)
1999 2011-07-19 16:51:02 <justmoon> nanotube, na <tab> BOOM :)
2000 2011-07-19 16:51:06 unclemantis has joined
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2002 2011-07-19 16:52:13 <nanotube> justmoon: indeed!
2003 2011-07-19 16:52:27 <nanotube> i rarely have to seed it with more than 2 initial letters
2004 2011-07-19 16:53:15 pecket has joined
2005 2011-07-19 16:53:18 XXO1XX has joined
2006 2011-07-19 16:53:27 <justmoon> it is quite the technological marvel ;)
2007 2011-07-19 16:53:43 <iddo> justmoon: how did you lose 7000 bitcoins?
2008 2011-07-19 16:53:51 Fairuser1 has joined
2009 2011-07-19 16:53:56 <justmoon> iddo: make three backups, test none of them
2010 2011-07-19 16:54:12 <iddo> what went wrong?
2011 2011-07-19 16:54:21 <AndyBr_> i'd like to hear this too... and avoid doing it
2012 2011-07-19 16:54:28 <kinlo> justmoon: send a backup, I'll try to recover it for ya :p
2013 2011-07-19 16:55:42 [1]Raycaster has joined
2014 2011-07-19 16:57:12 Sedra- has joined
2015 2011-07-19 16:57:16 <justmoon> I had three copies (1) virtualbox: careful when you delete snapshots during an upgrade to virtualbox 4, they might have important data in them. data you thought was on the virtual drive proper (2) truecrypt & dropbox: make sure you don't use it on two computers at the same time - your backup might get overwritten when you make changes on one and then on the other computer (3) ironkey: write down your password, even if you don't plan on actual
2016 2011-07-19 16:57:16 <justmoon> ly needing this backup because it's your third one and you have two others
2017 2011-07-19 16:57:16 minimoose_ has joined
2018 2011-07-19 16:58:16 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2019 2011-07-19 16:58:18 <justmoon> iddo, kinlo: ^
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2022 2011-07-19 16:58:28 Sedra- is now known as Sedra
2023 2011-07-19 16:58:38 <iddo> doesnt dropbox save history (deltas) of modified files, like git etc. ?
2024 2011-07-19 16:58:40 <b4epoche> okay, I think I'm kinda seeing how things changed with mapKeys
2025 2011-07-19 16:59:11 <justmoon> iddo: not if you have a free account and the old version in question is more than 30 days old
2026 2011-07-19 16:59:15 <b4epoche> I will now need to iterate over mapPubKeys and then call GetPrivKey for each?
2027 2011-07-19 16:59:15 <iddo> maybe you have the 7000 coins in dropbox history ?:)
2028 2011-07-19 16:59:33 <kinlo> justmoon: no seriously, if you still have some data left, you should figure out a way to recover it
2029 2011-07-19 16:59:35 <iddo> ahh right 30 days
2030 2011-07-19 16:59:41 <justmoon> in that case they can't even restore it if you tweet them and offer 10000 USD to get your file back :)
2031 2011-07-19 16:59:50 <b4epoche> doesn't seem like an efficient way to go, but with mapKeys protected I don't see any other way
2032 2011-07-19 16:59:55 <justmoon> thanks to the CTO of wuala for the idea to contact them :)
2033 2011-07-19 17:00:03 <iddo> damn
2034 2011-07-19 17:00:14 <Sami345> slush, why my reward is so random
2035 2011-07-19 17:00:34 <iddo> maybe dropbox admins took your 7000 coins for themselves...
2036 2011-07-19 17:00:41 <kinlo> justmoon: do you still have *any* datafile?
2037 2011-07-19 17:00:57 <b4epoche> anyone got comments before I blow up my previous code?
2038 2011-07-19 17:01:02 <Sami345> I mean at 180 000 khash/s and my reward is sometimes 0.00019790 and sometimes 0.00559840
2039 2011-07-19 17:01:09 <Sami345> seems pretty random :D
2040 2011-07-19 17:01:19 <b4epoche> Sami345: bitcoin-mining
2041 2011-07-19 17:01:30 <iddo> dropbox has access to all your files, but maybe you stored encrypted wallet.dat ?
2042 2011-07-19 17:01:30 <Sami345> b4epoche, yeah?
2043 2011-07-19 17:01:57 <justmoon> kinlo: I still have the ironkey, that *might* contain it which has four PIN tries left (no IDEA what the password could be) and there is a chance I made a backup somewhere that I forgot about - I was pretty stressed and sleep-deprived in march/april
2044 2011-07-19 17:01:57 <AndyBr_> always encrypt before dropbox, because dropbox has terrible security (when they have -any-)
2045 2011-07-19 17:01:59 <b4epoche> Sami345: those sound like mining questions, not dev questions
2046 2011-07-19 17:02:16 <AndyBr_> lesson is, as always: print your wallet on paper :)
2047 2011-07-19 17:02:27 <Sami345> well it may be something up with slush's pool developement :D
2048 2011-07-19 17:02:31 <AndyBr_> 1.4gb.. :-|
2049 2011-07-19 17:02:42 <b4epoche> AndyBr_: which I what I'm trying to get working again with the new base code
2050 2011-07-19 17:02:50 minimoose_ is now known as minimoose
2051 2011-07-19 17:02:50 [1]Raycaster is now known as Raycaster
2052 2011-07-19 17:02:52 <AndyBr_> b4epoche: paper? =)
2053 2011-07-19 17:02:59 <b4epoche> QR codes
2054 2011-07-19 17:03:05 Sedra has quit (Quit: ( IRC :: Quit ))
2055 2011-07-19 17:03:17 <b4epoche> I had it working but mapKeys is not protected
2056 2011-07-19 17:03:17 Sedra has joined
2057 2011-07-19 17:03:18 <AndyBr_> very cool. i dont know much about qr. how much data is in one qr (the ones i see on the street etc)?
2058 2011-07-19 17:03:29 <b4epoche> one key per code
2059 2011-07-19 17:03:29 paul0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2060 2011-07-19 17:03:40 <b4epoche> but you could have more I suppose
2061 2011-07-19 17:03:56 <b4epoche> qr codes can get massive if you want
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2065 2011-07-19 17:04:42 <AndyBr_> cool
2066 2011-07-19 17:04:46 eureka^ has joined
2067 2011-07-19 17:04:46 arima has joined
2068 2011-07-19 17:04:49 <b4epoche> the size of the image depends on the amount of data stored in it
2069 2011-07-19 17:04:50 <copumpkin> so, dudes
2070 2011-07-19 17:04:56 <copumpkin> and dudettes and anything else
2071 2011-07-19 17:05:09 <b4epoche> my goal is 100 per page
2072 2011-07-19 17:05:10 <copumpkin> we need accepted names for smaller denominations of bitcoins
2073 2011-07-19 17:05:17 <b4epoche> and it /was/ working fine ;-)
2074 2011-07-19 17:05:28 <b4epoche> SI prefixes
2075 2011-07-19 17:05:38 <copumpkin> also, 8 bitcoins = 1 bytecoin
2076 2011-07-19 17:06:00 <mtrlt> 0.01, megasatoshi
2077 2011-07-19 17:06:05 <copumpkin> 1 kibibytecoin = 8192 bitcoins
2078 2011-07-19 17:06:07 <unclemantis> wtf is a bytecoin?
2079 2011-07-19 17:06:25 <copumpkin> mtrlt: I like it
2080 2011-07-19 17:06:26 <AndyBr_> go science! decicoin, bitcent, whatever
2081 2011-07-19 17:06:32 <unclemantis> hey man, i got that kilo for a kilo that you asked for!
2082 2011-07-19 17:06:32 <AndyBr_> millicoin
2083 2011-07-19 17:06:33 <b4epoche> byte-my-shiny-metal-ass-coin
2084 2011-07-19 17:06:42 <unclemantis> I
2085 2011-07-19 17:06:50 <AndyBr_> 1 uBTC = 1/1000 BTC
2086 2011-07-19 17:07:14 <unclemantis> I'll take WTF for ฿100 Alex!
2087 2011-07-19 17:07:17 <b4epoche> honestly, I think it's derogatory to call the smallest unit a satoshi
2088 2011-07-19 17:07:28 <mtrlt> but that's what it is.
2089 2011-07-19 17:07:40 <unclemantis> b4epoche well then can we use his name in vain then?
2090 2011-07-19 17:08:15 <b4epoche> +how?
2091 2011-07-19 17:09:02 <b4epoche> any devs out there? I want to reimplement this key dump but it seems like the way to do it with current base code is kinda awkward
2092 2011-07-19 17:09:28 <b4epoche> and I don't trust that I'm understanding things
2093 2011-07-19 17:10:12 arima has quit (Excess Flood)
2094 2011-07-19 17:10:17 <unclemantis> offtopic, how long does it take for Google to ReIndex a site that got redeveloped?
2095 2011-07-19 17:10:20 arima has joined
2096 2011-07-19 17:10:24 <cvk_cvk> I have been using millibits, microbits, etc.
2097 2011-07-19 17:10:34 <AndyBr_> depends, unclemantis. use their webmaster tools to request reindex
2098 2011-07-19 17:10:39 <copumpkin> decibits?
2099 2011-07-19 17:10:41 <copumpkin> centibits
2100 2011-07-19 17:10:53 paul0 has joined
2101 2011-07-19 17:10:57 <AndyBr_> heptabit
2102 2011-07-19 17:11:08 <b4epoche> yoctobit
2103 2011-07-19 17:11:14 <b4epoche> zeptobit
2104 2011-07-19 17:11:39 <unclemantis> I submited the http://www.google.com/addurl.html a few weeks ago. I am now trying sitemap
2105 2011-07-19 17:11:48 <AndyBr_> tetradecabit
2106 2011-07-19 17:12:31 <b4epoche> what? mapPubKeys is a global?
2107 2011-07-19 17:12:44 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, lololol
2108 2011-07-19 17:12:50 <phantomcircuit> almost everything is a global
2109 2011-07-19 17:12:58 <phantomcircuit> SCOPE? FUCK THAT SHIT
2110 2011-07-19 17:13:02 Joric has joined
2111 2011-07-19 17:13:12 <b4epoche> well, mapKeys was part of CWallet before
2112 2011-07-19 17:14:01 <BlueMatt> mapPubKeys maps addresses to pubkeys, so it is public
2113 2011-07-19 17:14:09 <b4epoche> oh, I guess it's always been that way
2114 2011-07-19 17:14:11 <BlueMatt> its more of a this will go away than a global
2115 2011-07-19 17:14:19 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: You see my questions above?
2116 2011-07-19 17:14:26 <BlueMatt> nope
2117 2011-07-19 17:14:38 <b4epoche> public != global ?
2118 2011-07-19 17:14:44 <unclemantis> looks like google went to download my robots.txt file and it is missing
2119 2011-07-19 17:14:47 <b4epoche> since mapKeys went away
2120 2011-07-19 17:14:56 <unclemantis> let me guess. if the file is missing it won't index at all? WTF!?
2121 2011-07-19 17:15:08 <b4epoche> do I need to iterate over mapPubKeys and call getPrivKey for each?
2122 2011-07-19 17:15:23 <WakiMiko> i hate having to reupload robots.txt every time google downloads it >:C
2123 2011-07-19 17:15:38 <unclemantis> LOL
2124 2011-07-19 17:15:58 Titeuf_87 has joined
2125 2011-07-19 17:16:00 <WakiMiko> it should index if there is no robots.txt
2126 2011-07-19 17:16:00 <BlueMatt> unclemantis: no, they gladly index without one
2127 2011-07-19 17:16:08 sytse has joined
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2129 2011-07-19 17:16:55 <b4epoche> what is the reason mapKeys is now protected? don't want to be storing all the privKeys in memory?
2130 2011-07-19 17:17:28 <BlueMatt> dont want to be storeing any privkeys in public for people to just access willy-nilly
2131 2011-07-19 17:17:35 <BlueMatt> checkout sipa's showwallet for a better way
2132 2011-07-19 17:18:33 <b4epoche> oh, that's what was confusing me⦠didn't realize sipa had walletclass and showwallet branches
2133 2011-07-19 17:18:47 <BlueMatt> showwallet is the key import/export
2134 2011-07-19 17:18:53 <BlueMatt> walletclass was merged for .24
2135 2011-07-19 17:19:11 <BlueMatt> but showwallet just has some better interfaces for getting/setting/etc privkeys
2136 2011-07-19 17:19:19 <BlueMatt> can I ask why you need access to that to begin with?
2137 2011-07-19 17:19:32 <BlueMatt> unless you are doing key import/export you shouldnt really touch privkeys
2138 2011-07-19 17:19:45 <b4epoche> that's what I'm doing, export
2139 2011-07-19 17:19:50 <b4epoche> to qr codes
2140 2011-07-19 17:19:55 <BlueMatt> ah, ok then showwallet is what you want
2141 2011-07-19 17:20:01 <BlueMatt> already has the stuff written
2142 2011-07-19 17:20:08 <b4epoche> I had it working but then mapKeys got protected ;-)
2143 2011-07-19 17:20:16 <b4epoche> yea, I see that now.
2144 2011-07-19 17:20:29 <b4epoche> I was looking at the wrong branch in sipa's repo
2145 2011-07-19 17:20:32 <AndyBr_> "this transaction is over the size limit" error in gui. what is that?
2146 2011-07-19 17:20:52 <BlueMatt> AndyBr_: ,,(bc,wiki Transaction Fees)
2147 2011-07-19 17:20:53 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Jul 15, 2011 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
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2149 2011-07-19 17:22:07 <unclemantis> ok, let's see if this works
2150 2011-07-19 17:22:14 <unclemantis> thanks for the offtopic tip guys
2151 2011-07-19 17:23:18 <AndyBr_> thanks, BlueMatt
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2153 2011-07-19 17:24:14 <BlueMatt> AndyBr_: yea, it needs better wording...
2154 2011-07-19 17:24:37 Fireball has joined
2155 2011-07-19 17:25:39 <AndyBr_> BlueMatt: right, something simpler would be good. "Minimum transactionf fee is X." Buttons: [Send with X fee] [Don't send]
2156 2011-07-19 17:25:47 <BlueMatt> yep
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2170 2011-07-19 17:50:36 <phantomcircuit> I'm bored someone give me a bug to fix
2171 2011-07-19 17:50:54 <BlueMatt> look on github, there are a ton of papercuts
2172 2011-07-19 17:50:55 <gp5st> in btc or in general?:-p
2173 2011-07-19 17:51:30 <phantomcircuit> lol @ papercuts
2174 2011-07-19 17:51:52 <BlueMatt> aka https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
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2180 2011-07-19 17:56:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, as i understand it genjix wrote a branch that did exactly this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8
2181 2011-07-19 17:56:45 <BlueMatt> there have been several branches that do that, and it will probably be merged eventually
2182 2011-07-19 17:57:01 Joric has joined
2183 2011-07-19 17:57:08 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/183
2184 2011-07-19 17:57:30 <phantomcircuit> bah that's annoying that issues aren't linked to pull requests
2185 2011-07-19 17:57:37 again has joined
2186 2011-07-19 17:57:38 <Joric> is it possible to combine selected commits into one?
2187 2011-07-19 17:58:13 <BlueMatt> Joric: git rebase -i upstream/master
2188 2011-07-19 17:58:21 <BlueMatt> then change pick to fixup
2189 2011-07-19 17:58:24 <Joric> i just curious about pull requests it's not very handy to maintain separate branches for every feature
2190 2011-07-19 17:58:26 <BlueMatt> for commits you dont want to see
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2193 2011-07-19 18:00:25 <Joric> git rebase -i upstream/master: fatal: Needed a single revision invalid upstream upstream/master
2194 2011-07-19 18:00:38 <BlueMatt> well you need to have an upstream remote in git
2195 2011-07-19 18:00:41 <BlueMatt> (why dont you?)
2196 2011-07-19 18:01:13 <Joric> Y U NO have upstream
2197 2011-07-19 18:01:14 <Joric> i don't know...
2198 2011-07-19 18:01:35 <BlueMatt> git remote add upstream git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git iirc
2199 2011-07-19 18:03:18 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r151 /branches/peergroup/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerGroup.java: Default PeerGroup connections now 4 http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r151/
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2218 2011-07-19 18:25:54 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r152 / (15 files in 5 dirs): Merge peergroup branch into trunk http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r152/
2219 2011-07-19 18:26:34 again has joined
2220 2011-07-19 18:27:04 <justmoon> devrandom: is there any documentation on peergroups? or do I just need to suck it up and read the source? :)
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2224 2011-07-19 18:30:13 <BlueMatt> why are all of CIAs links to bitcoinj broken?
2225 2011-07-19 18:30:54 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2226 2011-07-19 18:30:54 <justmoon> BlueMatt, CIA is triggered by an XML call, apparently google code sends a broken url in the <url> field
2227 2011-07-19 18:30:55 <Blitzboom> CIA?!
2228 2011-07-19 18:31:29 <BlueMatt> justmoon: yea, I know, but why is google broken? it was mostly a rhetorical question
2229 2011-07-19 18:31:35 <justmoon> the <url> is not normally shown - we show it because we cut off the commit message after the first line
2230 2011-07-19 18:31:38 <cuddlefish> justmoon: now I shall discover the URL that the XML goes to, and fill the channel with ascii art commits!
2231 2011-07-19 18:32:03 <justmoon> normally, it would show the url that google sends in the commit message, I assume that one would be correct
2232 2011-07-19 18:32:13 <justmoon> still google would be the ones who'd have to fix this
2233 2011-07-19 18:33:13 <justmoon> or we go back to multiline commit message
2234 2011-07-19 18:33:29 <BlueMatt> its not a big deal it was just a rhetorical question
2235 2011-07-19 18:34:03 <BlueMatt> like wow you guys are broken, Id expect them to be able to code that...
2236 2011-07-19 18:34:41 again has joined
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2238 2011-07-19 18:37:11 <justmoon> BlueMatt, ok, now I got it ;)
2239 2011-07-19 18:37:23 <prof7bit> i doubt that google is broken. much more likely is that CIA is broken.
2240 2011-07-19 18:37:26 enquirer has joined
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2242 2011-07-19 18:37:39 <justmoon> prof7bit, it *IS* google that is broken, I just explained what's going on
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2245 2011-07-19 18:38:25 <justmoon> CIA only displays what is in the <url> field, google sends the wrong thing and nobody noticed because we're pretty much the only channel that actually uses the <url> field
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2248 2011-07-19 18:40:03 <prof7bit> * %p - project name
2249 2011-07-19 18:40:03 <prof7bit> * %r - revision number <-- these two variables are what google sends to a commit hook. No URL. Most likely CIA gets it wrong.
2250 2011-07-19 18:40:05 TD has joined
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2252 2011-07-19 18:42:42 <prof7bit> cia.vc
2253 2011-07-19 18:43:05 <justmoon> prof7bit, you're wrong
2254 2011-07-19 18:43:27 <prof7bit> are you the owner of cia.vc?
2255 2011-07-19 18:43:39 <prof7bit> i tried to email you several times
2256 2011-07-19 18:44:03 <prof7bit> becuse i have a feature request
2257 2011-07-19 18:44:05 <justmoon> no, but I've written the advanced filtering script that defines the format CIA uses in this channel and it contains the XPath that pulls the URL from the XML <url> tag
2258 2011-07-19 18:44:17 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2259 2011-07-19 18:44:33 <prof7bit> from what tag? the one generagted by cia.vc?
2260 2011-07-19 18:45:29 <justmoon> no, CIA receives XML-RPC calls from google
2261 2011-07-19 18:45:30 <justmoon> that xml
2262 2011-07-19 18:45:45 <justmoon> see the post commit script example http://cia.vc/clients/git/ciabot.pl
2263 2011-07-19 18:46:14 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2264 2011-07-19 18:46:19 <prof7bit> where is this documented? I know only of the http hooks. If CIA is not using them then they are pulling it themselves from google (and get it wrong)
2265 2011-07-19 18:46:38 <justmoon> CIA isn't pulling anything, google is pushing
2266 2011-07-19 18:46:52 <justmoon> sorry, wrong example: http://cia.vc/clients/git/ciabot.bash
2267 2011-07-19 18:47:06 <justmoon> the perl version doesn't contain the url field (I guess it's optional)
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2269 2011-07-19 18:47:13 <prof7bit> google is pushing project url and revision number to CIA. CIA is messing it up afterwards.
2270 2011-07-19 18:47:28 <prof7bit> google is not pushing a complete url
2271 2011-07-19 18:47:29 <eNTi> git version of bitcoin doesnt compile for me
2272 2011-07-19 18:47:44 <justmoon> prof7bit, where do you get that idea that they push only project url and revision number?
2273 2011-07-19 18:47:44 <MobiusL> Hi, I keep getting this error when I run ./bitcoin (ver 0.3.24) : terminate called after throwing an instance of 'DbRunRecoveryException'
2274 2011-07-19 18:47:44 <MobiusL> what(): DbEnv::txn_checkpoint: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
2275 2011-07-19 18:47:44 <MobiusL> Aborted
2276 2011-07-19 18:47:45 <prof7bit> your bot gets its things from CIA
2277 2011-07-19 18:48:11 <prof7bit> because i read the documentation. I have a googlecode project myself.
2278 2011-07-19 18:48:56 <cuddlefish> MobiusL: you should run database recovery.
2279 2011-07-19 18:49:00 <justmoon> CIA's documentation is pretty clear, the notification of a new commit is an XML-RPC request in a specific format
2280 2011-07-19 18:49:08 <MobiusL> how do I run that?
2281 2011-07-19 18:49:18 <justmoon> so if google wants to notify CIA of a commit it has to send that XML message
2282 2011-07-19 18:49:27 <cuddlefish> MobiusL: dunno
2283 2011-07-19 18:49:37 <prof7bit> i'm talking about the google documentation, only they can document what they want to push.
2284 2011-07-19 18:49:57 <prof7bit> cia cannot receive what google does not push
2285 2011-07-19 18:50:13 <justmoon> prof7bit, do you have a link to that documentation?
2286 2011-07-19 18:51:44 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2287 2011-07-19 18:51:45 <prof7bit> http://imagebin.org/163836 <-- its a screenshot of the admin page of google code hosting.
2288 2011-07-19 18:52:44 marvinm_ has joined
2289 2011-07-19 18:52:52 <prof7bit> your bot receives data from CIA's servers, so you cannot claim that google has it wong when it has gone through CIA before it arrives
2290 2011-07-19 18:52:52 <marvinm_> ;;bc,stats
2291 2011-07-19 18:52:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137085 | Current Difficulty: 1564057.4508376 | Next Difficulty At Block: 137087 | Next Difficulty In: 2 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 17 minutes and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1691293.75819692
2292 2011-07-19 18:53:11 <marvinm_> yay, diff not going up too much
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2297 2011-07-19 18:54:21 <prof7bit> they probably try to compose an url with the help of the revision number and somehow messed it up
2298 2011-07-19 18:54:49 <justmoon> prof7bit, the API you posted is not compatible with CIA's API, so I'm trying to figure, how you'd even set up CIA with google code
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2300 2011-07-19 18:54:54 <prof7bit> i have also used the RSS feeds from google and they also contain correct links
2301 2011-07-19 18:55:55 <prof7bit> nobody knows what CIA does, they do something and and you can subscribe to their service
2302 2011-07-19 18:56:25 <prof7bit> you could also write a bot to hook into google directly and nbot use CIA at all
2303 2011-07-19 18:56:31 <justmoon> prof7bit, on the page you posted, what do you enter in the URL field to push to CIA?
2304 2011-07-19 18:57:27 <prof7bit> i have no idea. i dont publish my commits to CIA, i have no use for them. I would put my own handler script there if I had some need for it.
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2306 2011-07-19 18:57:59 <prof7bit> and this is the only commit hook method i have seen on google code
2307 2011-07-19 18:58:13 <justmoon> prof7bit, then it's not the way you integrate CIA with google code - CIA expects more than just revision and project name
2308 2011-07-19 18:58:39 <prof7bit> maybe they can poll the RSS or svn directly
2309 2011-07-19 18:58:55 <prof7bit> who knows what they are doing on their servers
2310 2011-07-19 18:59:09 <justmoon> well, read the cia api documentation, it tells you what they are doing
2311 2011-07-19 18:59:19 <justmoon> they have an XML-RPC API that you can call with an XML document
2312 2011-07-19 18:59:45 <justmoon> if google code doesn't support submitting such a document, then maybe bitcoinj is using some sort of intermediary
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2314 2011-07-19 18:59:55 <prof7bit> how can i call anything if i have only this one method with google hosting
2315 2011-07-19 19:00:02 <justmoon> then the wrong url would be a bug in that intermediary
2316 2011-07-19 19:00:15 <TD> no intermediary
2317 2011-07-19 19:00:20 <justmoon> TD: enlighten us
2318 2011-07-19 19:00:28 <justmoon> (this conversation went on for way too long)
2319 2011-07-19 19:00:36 <TD> i just got back from dinner. let me check how i set it up
2320 2011-07-19 19:00:48 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2321 2011-07-19 19:01:14 <TD> i just set the post-commit url
2322 2011-07-19 19:01:19 <TD> to http://cia.vc/deliver/simplejson/
2323 2011-07-19 19:01:26 <TD> i don't recall it being hard?
2324 2011-07-19 19:01:33 eNTi has left ("Leaving.")
2325 2011-07-19 19:01:34 <TD> maybe it depends on the VCS you use. bitcoinj uses subversion
2326 2011-07-19 19:01:41 <TD> CIA is good at keeping an eye on subversion, haha
2327 2011-07-19 19:02:07 <cjdelisle> heh
2328 2011-07-19 19:02:10 <justmoon> ah, simplejson is indeed a separate api
2329 2011-07-19 19:02:45 <justmoon> apparently it triggers a call to the actual XML api internally
2330 2011-07-19 19:02:54 <justmoon> so prof7bit you were right, the bug is at CIA
2331 2011-07-19 19:02:57 <justmoon> congratulations
2332 2011-07-19 19:03:00 <justmoon> I'll go back to work now
2333 2011-07-19 19:04:13 <justmoon> for those who are curious (what's wrong with you..): http://cia.vc/blog/2009/03/google-revisited/
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2336 2011-07-19 19:10:28 <prof7bit> http://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/PostCommitWebHooks
2337 2011-07-19 19:12:43 <prof7bit> you are right. the url that google sends is wrong.
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2341 2011-07-19 19:13:47 <justmoon> lol, that's a nice twist - dramaturgically speaking
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2345 2011-07-19 19:15:04 <prof7bit> normally google should be too big to be wrong.
2346 2011-07-19 19:15:36 <justmoon> too big to [FAIL]? :)
2347 2011-07-19 19:17:32 Evious has joined
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2350 2011-07-19 19:19:27 <TD> prof7bit: it seems to work for bitcoinj? what is the issue precisely?
2351 2011-07-19 19:19:49 <justmoon> <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r152 / (15 files in 5 dirs): Merge peergroup branch into trunk http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r152/
2352 2011-07-19 19:19:54 <justmoon> ^ URL don't work
2353 2011-07-19 19:19:57 <prof7bit> http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r151/
2354 2011-07-19 19:20:00 <prof7bit> 404
2355 2011-07-19 19:20:05 <TD> good point
2356 2011-07-19 19:20:22 <TD> i'll file a bug tomorrow
2357 2011-07-19 19:20:39 <BlueMatt> TD: what are peergroups?
2358 2011-07-19 19:20:51 again has joined
2359 2011-07-19 19:21:15 <TD> it's a class that manages multiple peers, ie switching to a new one when they disconnect, broadcasting transactions to them etc
2360 2011-07-19 19:21:23 <TD> previously you had to pick one peer and stick with it
2361 2011-07-19 19:21:24 <BlueMatt> oh, ok nvm
2362 2011-07-19 19:21:30 <TD> just an internal bitcoinj term
2363 2011-07-19 19:21:33 <TD> nothing exciting
2364 2011-07-19 19:21:39 <BlueMatt> ok, nevermind then
2365 2011-07-19 19:21:41 <TD> justmoon: first nfc bitcoin transaction ever today
2366 2011-07-19 19:21:42 freakazo_ has joined
2367 2011-07-19 19:21:49 <TD> justmoon: sent my boss a few testcoins
2368 2011-07-19 19:21:56 <justmoon> TD: nfc?
2369 2011-07-19 19:22:07 <cdecker> Near field communication
2370 2011-07-19 19:22:15 <TD> tap-to-pay
2371 2011-07-19 19:22:23 * justmoon feels uncool for not knowing that
2372 2011-07-19 19:22:23 <TD> you know. touch two phones together and they send coins
2373 2011-07-19 19:22:37 <justmoon> yes, thanks I know what near field communication is ^^
2374 2011-07-19 19:22:40 <BlueMatt> justmoon: you are uncool for not knowing that
2375 2011-07-19 19:22:45 <TD> oh, heh :)
2376 2011-07-19 19:23:13 <justmoon> now get off my lawn! *shakes cane*
2377 2011-07-19 19:23:19 <BlueMatt> lol
2378 2011-07-19 19:23:24 <justmoon> also: congratulations, very cool :)
2379 2011-07-19 19:23:25 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2380 2011-07-19 19:23:26 freakazo_ is now known as freakazoid
2381 2011-07-19 19:23:31 pusle has joined
2382 2011-07-19 19:23:32 <justmoon> boss impressed?
2383 2011-07-19 19:23:33 <IO-> how fast does a nfc xfer go?
2384 2011-07-19 19:23:45 <cuddlefish> IO-: it's trivial, just putting the address
2385 2011-07-19 19:23:50 <jgarzik> NFC == no f'ing clue
2386 2011-07-19 19:23:51 <jgarzik> :)
2387 2011-07-19 19:24:02 <justmoon> jgarzik, thanks, now I feel much better :)
2388 2011-07-19 19:24:14 <TD> IO-: instantly, pretty much. you're just sending the address and number of requested coins by radio
2389 2011-07-19 19:24:16 <TD> instead of qrcode
2390 2011-07-19 19:24:20 <Joric> are you planning to relink wx dynamically?
2391 2011-07-19 19:24:21 <IO-> so it's instant, and we let the confirms happen later?
2392 2011-07-19 19:24:29 <TD> well it shows up in the app instantly, obviously, like the real client
2393 2011-07-19 19:24:34 * jgarzik is not convinced NFC will become a universal payment standard
2394 2011-07-19 19:24:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: neither is anyone, but we might as well keep up with the trends right?
2395 2011-07-19 19:24:55 <TD> NFC for payment is really complicated. you need smartcard chips connected to the radio hardware and stuff
2396 2011-07-19 19:24:58 <jgarzik> TD: dumb question... what is a PeerGroup?
2397 2011-07-19 19:24:59 <manveru> it's pretty universal in japan :)
2398 2011-07-19 19:25:09 larsivi_ is now known as larsivi
2399 2011-07-19 19:25:10 <TD> NFC for bitcoin is much easier. you just move a bitcoin:addr?value=X uri between devices
2400 2011-07-19 19:25:13 <BlueMatt> TD: wow peergroup really is an exciting name
2401 2011-07-19 19:25:21 <justmoon> jgarzik, he just answered that ^^
2402 2011-07-19 19:25:26 <TD> BlueMatt: hah, yeah
2403 2011-07-19 19:25:29 <justmoon> <TD> it's a class that manages multiple peers, ie switching to a new one when they disconnect, broadcasting transactions to them etc
2404 2011-07-19 19:25:30 leroux has joined
2405 2011-07-19 19:25:31 <TD> it's just an internal BitCoinJ class
2406 2011-07-19 19:25:33 <TD> nothing exciting at all
2407 2011-07-19 19:25:34 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
2408 2011-07-19 19:25:49 <justmoon> TD: well good job giving it an exciting name then :P
2409 2011-07-19 19:26:15 huk has joined
2410 2011-07-19 19:27:03 <TD> man, these mobile apps were really launched before their time
2411 2011-07-19 19:27:14 <TD> now we have a quick hack around wallet serialization crashes, the problem is lack of fees
2412 2011-07-19 19:27:34 <justmoon> it doesn't add a fee at all?
2413 2011-07-19 19:27:50 <TD> nope. never.
2414 2011-07-19 19:28:03 <justmoon> hard code a fee, add info in ui?
2415 2011-07-19 19:28:19 <justmoon> second step: add a config option like official client
2416 2011-07-19 19:28:20 <TD> maybe. i wonder what fee would make sense.
2417 2011-07-19 19:28:34 <TD> well if i work on it, i may as well just duplicate the fee rules from the satoshi client
2418 2011-07-19 19:28:37 <lfm> do they advertise free txn?
2419 2011-07-19 19:28:38 <TD> based on size/complexity, etc.
2420 2011-07-19 19:28:53 <TD> i suppose the formula may not be implementable on a lightweight client though
2421 2011-07-19 19:28:58 <TD> you wouldn't know the ages of the inputs
2422 2011-07-19 19:29:04 <TD> oh, wait. yes you do.
2423 2011-07-19 19:29:08 <TD> never mind. i'm talking rubbish again.
2424 2011-07-19 19:29:56 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
2425 2011-07-19 19:29:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137088 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 2015 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 2 days, 15 hours, 38 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 6763583.21220957
2426 2011-07-19 19:30:51 <lfm> nice estimate! grin
2427 2011-07-19 19:31:27 <nanotube> haha
2428 2011-07-19 19:31:29 <nanotube> ;;bc,spotestimate
2429 2011-07-19 19:31:30 <gribble> 1782026.76787
2430 2011-07-19 19:31:35 <nanotube> lfm: ^ that's more accurate
2431 2011-07-19 19:31:36 DiabolicalGamer has joined
2432 2011-07-19 19:31:39 <nanotube> based on a 3day average
2433 2011-07-19 19:31:54 <DiabolicalGamer> Good Afternoon Friends
2434 2011-07-19 19:33:05 <DiabolicalGamer> I'm working on developing an app for Bitcoin and would like to pull block data similar to Block Explorer... Do I require the getBlock patch listed on their homepage?
2435 2011-07-19 19:34:46 <lfm> ya, I think you would
2436 2011-07-19 19:35:19 again is now known as tower
2437 2011-07-19 19:37:03 <DiabolicalGamer> Cool anyone know of a how-to guide on setting it up? If not I'll get right on it as soon as I figure it out. :-)
2438 2011-07-19 19:37:44 <lfm> probably is no guide, sorry
2439 2011-07-19 19:38:06 <accel> bitcoin is so awesome
2440 2011-07-19 19:38:20 <TD> justmoon: did you understand what cunicula was wanting in his discussion of bitcoin bonds?
2441 2011-07-19 19:38:20 <TD> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=18288.40
2442 2011-07-19 19:38:29 <lfm> just the regular bitcoin build readme files in the src dirs
2443 2011-07-19 19:39:01 <accel> there's only one thing that could make bitcoin more awesome
2444 2011-07-19 19:39:08 <accel> ... if everyone transferred me 10 BTC
2445 2011-07-19 19:39:17 bc` has joined
2446 2011-07-19 19:39:29 <DiabolicalGamer> lol
2447 2011-07-19 19:39:47 <DiabolicalGamer> I can't just "give" you coins... But I'm currently running a logo design contest. :-)
2448 2011-07-19 19:39:57 <DiabolicalGamer> http://www.holzenterprises.com/node/3
2449 2011-07-19 19:40:17 <DiabolicalGamer> 7.50 BTC for the best logo decided by majority vote
2450 2011-07-19 19:40:18 <accel> alright
2451 2011-07-19 19:40:25 <justmoon> TD: yeah, essentially he wants to get rid of the counterparty risk of bonds by decentralizing it in the block chain
2452 2011-07-19 19:40:28 <accel> how about you submit a logo with my name and then rig the contest?
2453 2011-07-19 19:40:31 bc` has quit (Client Quit)
2454 2011-07-19 19:40:38 <DiabolicalGamer> lol
2455 2011-07-19 19:40:39 <TD> isn't counterparty risk what defines a bond?
2456 2011-07-19 19:40:50 <DiabolicalGamer> No can do, I need a logo for my biz :-D
2457 2011-07-19 19:41:06 <TD> i mean you can't loan somebody money and be cryptographically guaranteed to get it back
2458 2011-07-19 19:41:18 <jgarzik> indeed
2459 2011-07-19 19:41:19 Jefff has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2460 2011-07-19 19:41:21 <justmoon> TD: you can if the issuer of the debt is the block chain itself
2461 2011-07-19 19:41:33 <justmoon> TD: i.e. once the bond matures it's a spendable bitcoin
2462 2011-07-19 19:41:47 <jgarzik> justmoon: so it's a bond with no interest?
2463 2011-07-19 19:41:53 Jefff has joined
2464 2011-07-19 19:41:54 Joric has quit ()
2465 2011-07-19 19:41:55 <nanotube> and no ability to spend funds you borrowed?
2466 2011-07-19 19:42:06 <justmoon> TD: don't like the idea, don't think it's necessary, it's almost impossible to retrofit, but it is interesting
2467 2011-07-19 19:42:15 * TD doesn't get it
2468 2011-07-19 19:42:21 bc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2469 2011-07-19 19:42:34 <TD> a bond is a securitized loan. let's say you are selling justmoon bonds. i send you 10 BTC and you give me back 10 bondcoins
2470 2011-07-19 19:42:39 <TD> you spend the 10 BTC as you see fit
2471 2011-07-19 19:42:46 <TD> when the bond matures I expect the 10 BTC back
2472 2011-07-19 19:42:46 <justmoon> jgarzik, well, the bond would be worth less before its maturity, so it would have interest - i.e. it would be cheaper to get than the matured coins will be worth
2473 2011-07-19 19:42:54 <TD> if the bondcoins automatically turn into bitcoins, all we've done is inflate the currency
2474 2011-07-19 19:43:02 <TD> it has to be you who gives me the coins back
2475 2011-07-19 19:43:15 <nanotube> i don't get it either
2476 2011-07-19 19:43:25 <justmoon> TD, a bond issued by a private party correct, but he's talking about the equivalent of government bonds
2477 2011-07-19 19:43:31 <nanotube> not the zero-coupon bond part... the part about repayment.
2478 2011-07-19 19:43:40 <justmoon> i.e. bonds with the full credit of the monetary authority behind it
2479 2011-07-19 19:43:52 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2480 2011-07-19 19:43:56 <nanotube> justmoon: you mean, like what we have now with USD already?
2481 2011-07-19 19:44:10 <nanotube> the govt can turn on the printing presses and give you your usd back, regardless of how much they're actually worth?
2482 2011-07-19 19:44:21 <justmoon> TD: you could reduce the amount of normally created bitcoins to maintain the same rate of money growth
2483 2011-07-19 19:44:34 accel has quit (Quit: leaving)
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2485 2011-07-19 19:44:53 <justmoon> nanotube, no, it would affect the rules/modality of issuing the money, but you could design it in a way that doesn't affect overall money supply
2486 2011-07-19 19:45:23 <lfm> rip off the miners to repay someone's loan?
2487 2011-07-19 19:45:30 <TD> so i take 10 BTC and do some kind of new tx that converts them into 10 bondcoins. the 10 btc disappear. after a year the 10 bondcoins turn back into btc
2488 2011-07-19 19:45:53 <justmoon> lfm: no, nobody would be getting a loan, the miners could mine for either current bitcoins or for bonds (future bitcoins)
2489 2011-07-19 19:45:57 <TD> so what you have is basically a tx with a lock time, but that can be moved around like regular coins
2490 2011-07-19 19:46:12 <justmoon> lfm: the idea is that the bonds in circulation aren't full spendable bitcoins until they mature
2491 2011-07-19 19:46:21 <justmoon> TD: no not all
2492 2011-07-19 19:46:29 <lfm> sound fishy
2493 2011-07-19 19:46:35 <nanotube> justmoon: ok, why not start from the beginning and describe the framework hehe
2494 2011-07-19 19:46:35 <justmoon> TD: bonds are mined not converted from existing bitcoins
2495 2011-07-19 19:47:00 <TD> i think this concept of a 'bond' is getting so far from the usual definition a new term might be useful
2496 2011-07-19 19:47:04 <lfm> ok why mine bonds instead of bticoins?
2497 2011-07-19 19:47:24 <TD> a bond as a securitized loan to a private party (or even government) i can understand. bonds that are not issued by anyone in particular and are created via mining doesn't sound anything like a loan
2498 2011-07-19 19:47:49 <justmoon> TD: gov't issued bonds are economically the closest existing equivalent
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2500 2011-07-19 19:48:01 gp5st has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2501 2011-07-19 19:48:07 <justmoon> TD: but I agree this is something new
2502 2011-07-19 19:48:09 <TD> even governments don't unilaterally print their way out of debt anymore
2503 2011-07-19 19:48:18 <TD> see: greece, usa (otherwise the debt ceiling wouldn't matter)
2504 2011-07-19 19:48:23 <TD> ok some governments
2505 2011-07-19 19:48:51 <justmoon> TD: the US very much are printing their way ... not exactly out of debt, but to maintain the current debt level
2506 2011-07-19 19:49:05 <justmoon> TD: the federal reserve is the largest holder of US bonds
2507 2011-07-19 19:49:30 <lfm> you lost me
2508 2011-07-19 19:49:40 <TD> yeah, ok, so obfuscated printing takes place
2509 2011-07-19 19:49:52 <TD> that causes inflation though
2510 2011-07-19 19:51:01 <justmoon> TD: yes, the way we'd do it (if we didn't want inflation) would be by reducing the normally mined coins by whatever the maturing bonds for that block are worth
2511 2011-07-19 19:51:50 <justmoon> so you'd say starting block 150000 there are 10 bonds per block mined that take 50000 blocks to mature and starting block 200000 10 less normal bitcoins are mined
2512 2011-07-19 19:51:52 <TD> so what's the rationale for creating a bond again? if they're basically tradeable like bitcoins, and you know exactly when they'll mature and how many coins they'll be worth, why are they not equivalent?
2513 2011-07-19 19:52:19 <justmoon> TD: cunicula argued that the bonds would somehow inspire their owners to think about the long-term concerns of bitcoin and promote it
2514 2011-07-19 19:52:31 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2515 2011-07-19 19:52:59 <TD> i don't see how a bondcoin acts differently to a bitcoin, so i don't see why it'd impact anyones behavior
2516 2011-07-19 19:53:00 <b4epoche> so, it's bitcoin futures?
2517 2011-07-19 19:53:09 <justmoon> TD: whether they are equivalent depends on acceptance
2518 2011-07-19 19:53:18 <jrmithdobbs> sounds useless
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2520 2011-07-19 19:53:26 <justmoon> TD: if more and more people start accepting them interchangeably, yes they become equivalent
2521 2011-07-19 19:53:31 gp5st has joined
2522 2011-07-19 19:53:32 <TD> huh
2523 2011-07-19 19:53:36 <lfm> I dont see it either
2524 2011-07-19 19:53:38 <justmoon> TD: but that hasn't happened with government bonds, for practical reasons
2525 2011-07-19 19:53:52 <TD> bitbonds would presumably have to be integrated into the main software though
2526 2011-07-19 19:53:56 <TD> at which point they would become tradeable.
2527 2011-07-19 19:53:56 <b4epoche> I'll mine it now and hope in the future it's worth something?
2528 2011-07-19 19:54:04 <BitMtMan> or you could program the network not to validate transactions between immature bonds?
2529 2011-07-19 19:54:08 <justmoon> TD: probably yeah
2530 2011-07-19 19:54:08 <TD> probably, it'd be just as easy as regular coins
2531 2011-07-19 19:54:13 <b4epoche> worth something more than what else I could have mined?
2532 2011-07-19 19:54:17 <TD> i didn't really get his contingent claims thread either
2533 2011-07-19 19:54:20 gp5st has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2534 2011-07-19 19:54:26 <b4epoche> it's like mining wine ;-)
2535 2011-07-19 19:54:28 <jrmithdobbs> i don't see the point?
2536 2011-07-19 19:54:31 <TD> i can't decide if i'm an economic illiterate or he/she is just bad at explaining these :)
2537 2011-07-19 19:54:44 <TD> i quite like the idea of finding ways to stabilize the exchange rate via cryptocontracts
2538 2011-07-19 19:54:46 <TD> but that's easier said than done
2539 2011-07-19 19:55:12 <TD> the only idea that springs to mind is having a parallel crypto-currency pegged to the dollar by a consortium of issueing institutions
2540 2011-07-19 19:55:14 <justmoon> I feel like I should post again the disclaimer that I discarded his idea and unrealistic to retrofit and unnecessary, or at least not necessary enough
2541 2011-07-19 19:55:19 <TD> yeah
2542 2011-07-19 19:55:21 <justmoon> as* unrealistic
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2544 2011-07-19 19:56:15 <justmoon> b4epoche, the reason you'd mine it is because the difficulty would be slightly lower than for immediate bitcoins
2545 2011-07-19 19:56:22 <jrmithdobbs> TD: LF always sounds great on paper until a real world implementation shows how horrible it can be in practice ;p
2546 2011-07-19 19:56:30 <jrmithdobbs> (re: bitcoin valuation fluctuation)
2547 2011-07-19 19:56:32 <justmoon> TD: I guess you could implement them as coins that take longer to mature? no idea.
2548 2011-07-19 19:56:33 <TD> LF?
2549 2011-07-19 19:56:39 <jrmithdobbs> laize faire
2550 2011-07-19 19:56:43 <lfm> maybe if we could just set up a futures market for bitcoins ...
2551 2011-07-19 19:56:58 <b4epoche> justmoon: so it would be a bet on difficulty rising?
2552 2011-07-19 19:57:11 <TD> justmoon: well, i mean, DCoins or whatever would not be issued via mining at all
2553 2011-07-19 19:57:11 <jrmithdobbs> laissez
2554 2011-07-19 19:57:27 <justmoon> b4epoche, it would be a bet on bitcoin's value raising faster than other miners think it will rise
2555 2011-07-19 19:57:36 <jrmithdobbs> justmoon: bonds might make sense if they were a side chain
2556 2011-07-19 19:57:41 <TD> justmoon: they'd exist on a parallel chain but created by signing a transaction with a private key that belongs to a consortium member
2557 2011-07-19 19:57:56 <TD> the members would have to guarantee that they are full reserve, ie every DCoin is backed by a dollar in their bank
2558 2011-07-19 19:57:59 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs, you can't realize them as a side chain, unless somebody puts up normal bitcoins to cover the maturing bonds
2559 2011-07-19 19:58:12 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs, this only works if the matured bonds are spendable on the bitcoin network as full bitcoins
2560 2011-07-19 19:58:15 <TD> it would allow for things like cryptographically enforced btc:dollar trades i guess
2561 2011-07-19 19:58:23 <erus`> bitcoin is losing momentum... :(
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2563 2011-07-19 19:58:27 <TD> perhaps crypto-enforced futures contracts
2564 2011-07-19 19:58:29 <jrmithdobbs> justmoon: ya i'm stretching to try and find some modicum of usefulness
2565 2011-07-19 19:58:34 <TD> erus`: eh?
2566 2011-07-19 19:58:46 <imsaguy> No its not
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2568 2011-07-19 19:58:53 <BitMtMan> erus, momentum in movements like this isn't a linear thing
2569 2011-07-19 19:58:54 <imsaguy> CNN has a brand new article about it.
2570 2011-07-19 19:58:56 <BitMtMan> you get surges
2571 2011-07-19 19:59:19 <justmoon> TD: cryptographically enforces usd btc trades? you lost me
2572 2011-07-19 19:59:25 <justmoon> enforced*
2573 2011-07-19 19:59:38 <justmoon> how do you guys manage to never make typos o_O
2574 2011-07-19 19:59:42 <imsaguy> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2011/07/19/taylor.bitcoin.currency.cnn?iref=allsearch
2575 2011-07-19 19:59:50 <TD> let's say these DCoins operate on a parallel bitcoin-like network, with shared mining
2576 2011-07-19 19:59:51 <erus`> http://www.google.co.uk/trends?q=bitcoin
2577 2011-07-19 19:59:52 <imsaguy> justmoon, try reading before hitting send?
2578 2011-07-19 19:59:57 <BitMtMan> a bank which backed every bitcoin it had with dollarcoins
2579 2011-07-19 20:00:00 wardearia has joined
2580 2011-07-19 20:00:04 <BitMtMan> you'd have to trust the bank
2581 2011-07-19 20:00:04 <TD> except that instead of being issued via a pre-determined inflation scheduled that combines with mining
2582 2011-07-19 20:00:12 <TD> they are created by banks, effectively
2583 2011-07-19 20:00:15 <jrmithdobbs> TD: i see what you're saying but I'm not relaly getting the usefulness
2584 2011-07-19 20:00:21 <jrmithdobbs> s/relaly/really/
2585 2011-07-19 20:00:27 <TD> at the bottom of the alt chains wiki page, there's a description of how to tie resources in different chains together
2586 2011-07-19 20:00:39 <TD> well, for instance, you could do a futures contract by broadcasting a tx with a lock time in the future
2587 2011-07-19 20:00:57 <TD> saying "at time T I will release X DCoins to you"
2588 2011-07-19 20:01:19 <jrmithdobbs> i think the bigger question
2589 2011-07-19 20:01:32 <jrmithdobbs> is what is the usefulness of futures in relation to bitcoin?
2590 2011-07-19 20:01:34 <TD> by doing the sort of negotiation protocols described on the Contracts page, you could do peer-to-peer dollar/btc trades
2591 2011-07-19 20:01:38 <TD> ie not in an exchange
2592 2011-07-19 20:01:54 <TD> in theory futures and other fancy financial instruments would help stabilize the exchange rate
2593 2011-07-19 20:01:57 <TD> which is good for business
2594 2011-07-19 20:02:08 <justmoon> TD: that sounds kind of like what mtgox say they are building ... kind of
2595 2011-07-19 20:02:09 <TD> wildly fluctuating exchange rates mean accepting bitcoin carries large hidden costs
2596 2011-07-19 20:02:17 <lfm> seems like it would need to be tied to a loans market
2597 2011-07-19 20:02:18 <TD> yeah, campbx said they wanted to allow shorting
2598 2011-07-19 20:02:27 <TD> the exchanges will undoubtably create such systems
2599 2011-07-19 20:02:36 <jgarzik> yep, bitcoin needs: shorting, options and futures
2600 2011-07-19 20:02:36 <TD> but doing it p2p style is more in the spirit of satoshi ;)
2601 2011-07-19 20:03:04 <jgarzik> merchants and other players need ability to predict exchange rates with a bit more accuracy
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2603 2011-07-19 20:03:35 <imsaguy> psh, slip slide have a good ride
2604 2011-07-19 20:03:39 <lfm> even miners would like it
2605 2011-07-19 20:04:01 <TD> exchange rates have been nicely stable in the past month
2606 2011-07-19 20:04:04 <justmoon> jgarzik, I sold a bitcoin option for 560$ - buyer didn't execute (it was to buy bitcoins at 45$ :P) nice profit for me :)
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2608 2011-07-19 20:04:31 <justmoon> we don't need any decentralized fanciness to trade options imho
2609 2011-07-19 20:04:34 <TD> but it might be accidental. making them even more stable can only be a good thing.
2610 2011-07-19 20:04:36 <justmoon> just people who want to trade options
2611 2011-07-19 20:04:49 <imsaguy> Look at the world markets, they are becoming more and more centralized
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2613 2011-07-19 20:04:51 <jgarzik> justmoon: need a reliable quotation system
2614 2011-07-19 20:04:53 <imsaguy> not an issue
2615 2011-07-19 20:05:15 <justmoon> jgarzik, yeah, I remember we had no idea what the option should be worth
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2617 2011-07-19 20:05:24 <jgarzik> NASDAQ, unlike what many believe, is not a market. It is a quotation system.
2618 2011-07-19 20:05:28 <TD> justmoon: technically you don't need bitcoin for anything
2619 2011-07-19 20:05:34 <TD> but some things become easier when trust requirements are minimized
2620 2011-07-19 20:05:38 <justmoon> TD: indeed
2621 2011-07-19 20:05:43 <jgarzik> OTC trading is just fine, as long as you can trust the numbers being quoted
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2626 2011-07-19 20:07:00 <TD> the p2p protocol still has this unused channels/announcements functionality
2627 2011-07-19 20:07:05 <TD> i keep meaning to play around with it on the testnet
2628 2011-07-19 20:07:12 <TD> it might make some things easier for very fixed, well defined trades
2629 2011-07-19 20:07:15 <b4epoche> justmoon: how did you make the buyer of your option pay?
2630 2011-07-19 20:07:17 p0s has joined
2631 2011-07-19 20:07:29 <TD> for things like currency options, they can have a standard format
2632 2011-07-19 20:07:47 <justmoon> b4epoche, it was an option, he paid up front, it was his risk whether I'd be true to my word and let him execute
2633 2011-07-19 20:08:04 <TD> eg you could broadcast a request for an option to buy 100 btc at 1300 dollars a week from now. somebody else could just leave their software running with a table of the users price predictions
2634 2011-07-19 20:08:10 <TD> then options could be automatically sold and settle
2635 2011-07-19 20:08:13 <TD> settled
2636 2011-07-19 20:08:32 <TD> theoretically it'd lead to a more liquid market
2637 2011-07-19 20:08:41 b4epoche_ has joined
2638 2011-07-19 20:08:46 <prof7bit> are alert messages forwarded even if they don't have the satoshi key or will they be reected by the protocol.
2639 2011-07-19 20:08:53 <TD> of course as justmoon observed before, things are almost always easier to implement centralized :)
2640 2011-07-19 20:09:04 <jgarzik> TD: didn't satoshi ponder HFT, a bit?
2641 2011-07-19 20:09:11 <TD> prof7bit: only signed messages are forwarded, iirc
2642 2011-07-19 20:09:12 <jgarzik> TD: did that ever go anywhere?
2643 2011-07-19 20:09:34 <TD> jgarzik: he mentioned it to me once yes. it was an illustration of one way to use nLockTime. I don't think he ever intended to implement himself
2644 2011-07-19 20:10:06 <cuddlefish> Woohoo
2645 2011-07-19 20:10:07 <cuddlefish> Container(checksum = None, command = 'version', length = 1426063360, magic = 3652501241L, payload = Container(addr_me = Container(ip = '\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\xff\xff_\x85\xfdF', port = 8333, services = 1), addr_you = Container(ip = '\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\xff\xffb\xf8\xafs', port = 8333, services = 1), nonce = 11763152874544946976L, proto_sub_version = '', proto_version = 32300, services = 1, start_he
2646 2011-07-19 20:10:14 <cuddlefish> now that's a parser!
2647 2011-07-19 20:10:46 <TD> it's interesting to ponder the dollarcoin concept
2648 2011-07-19 20:10:52 <TD> i wonder what the implications would be legally
2649 2011-07-19 20:11:09 <jgarzik> cuddlefish: uh... that nonce is larger than 32 bits
2650 2011-07-19 20:11:40 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: it's 32 bits?
2651 2011-07-19 20:11:41 <cuddlefish> aha
2652 2011-07-19 20:11:44 <cuddlefish> the wiki said 64
2653 2011-07-19 20:11:48 b4epoche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2654 2011-07-19 20:11:48 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
2655 2011-07-19 20:11:52 <justmoon> o_O
2656 2011-07-19 20:11:56 <prof7bit> version nonce is 64 bit
2657 2011-07-19 20:12:04 * justmoon checks wiki
2658 2011-07-19 20:12:05 <jgarzik> block header nonce is 32 bit
2659 2011-07-19 20:12:14 <cuddlefish> jgarzik: that's a version message.
2660 2011-07-19 20:12:17 <jgarzik> ok
2661 2011-07-19 20:12:31 <justmoon> ah, misunderstanding solved ^^
2662 2011-07-19 20:13:26 random_cat is now known as morehuman
2663 2011-07-19 20:13:45 morehuman is now known as random_cat
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2665 2011-07-19 20:14:45 <nanotube> TD: what benefits would dollarcoin have over... dollars?
2666 2011-07-19 20:14:54 <prof7bit> http://code.google.com/p/fpbitcoin/source/browse/trunk/bitcoin_p2p_msg_version.inc.pas
2667 2011-07-19 20:15:15 <BitMtMan> crypto transmission
2668 2011-07-19 20:15:18 <TD> nanotube: moving them around like bitcoins, using them in cryptocontracts, etc
2669 2011-07-19 20:15:27 <TD> moving dollars is hard for all kinds of reasons
2670 2011-07-19 20:16:24 <BlueMatt> TD: when you said you were leaving for lunch and meetings with lawyers, were any of those meetings, possibly wrt bitcoin?
2671 2011-07-19 20:16:29 * prof7bit found a typo
2672 2011-07-19 20:16:57 <TD> yeah. i can't really discuss the details i'm afraid
2673 2011-07-19 20:17:18 cuddlefish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2674 2011-07-19 20:17:19 <BlueMatt> TD: you cant even say if its wrt bitcoins or not?
2675 2011-07-19 20:17:20 <nanotube> TD: what kinds of reasons make dollar moving hard? you have paypal, and banks, and dwolla, and various other intermediaries
2676 2011-07-19 20:17:27 <TD> BlueMatt: the meeting was about bitcoin yes
2677 2011-07-19 20:17:33 <BlueMatt> TD: ah, ok just wondered
2678 2011-07-19 20:17:51 <TD> nanotube: slow, reversable, you can't use contracts functionality etc
2679 2011-07-19 20:17:57 liltoe has joined
2680 2011-07-19 20:18:04 <TD> nanotube: i mean some of bitcoins value comes from the fact that it's an independent currency
2681 2011-07-19 20:18:15 <TD> that exists apart from everything else
2682 2011-07-19 20:18:21 <jgarzik> yep
2683 2011-07-19 20:18:24 <TD> and some of it comes from practical functionality, like rapid transactions
2684 2011-07-19 20:18:40 <TD> there's actually a guy at google who thinks that bitcoin will fail but a dollarcoin like system will take off some day
2685 2011-07-19 20:18:48 <TD> i don't know if he's right, but i can't say for sure he's wrong
2686 2011-07-19 20:19:04 <phantomcircuit> dollarcoin?
2687 2011-07-19 20:19:09 <phantomcircuit> hmm
2688 2011-07-19 20:19:23 <phantomcircuit> in which 1 legal entity backs the coins with dollars?
2689 2011-07-19 20:19:29 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2690 2011-07-19 20:19:29 <luke-jr> so my bitcoinds are refusing to start unless I use strace
2691 2011-07-19 20:19:32 <luke-jr> any ideas? :/
2692 2011-07-19 20:19:56 <BitMtMan> use the force, luke?
2693 2011-07-19 20:20:02 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2694 2011-07-19 20:20:08 <phantomcircuit> how is that even possible
2695 2011-07-19 20:20:11 <nanotube> TD: well, since dollarcoin will have to be controlled by the entities who hold the dollars... somehow i suspect that reversibility will come along.
2696 2011-07-19 20:20:16 <justmoon> TD: if you rely on a single entity for the reserve, what's the point of decentralizing the payments?
2697 2011-07-19 20:20:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: when you run a modded bitcoind, "its not starting" is not a valid question ;)
2698 2011-07-19 20:20:38 <TD> doesn't have to be a single entity. you could have several dollarcoin issuers
2699 2011-07-19 20:20:39 <nanotube> TD: as in, "zomg my coins just got spent without my authorization... i'll sue you until you give me the coins back"
2700 2011-07-19 20:20:39 <mtrlt> a dollarcoin-like system as in a currency that has a fixed exchange rate with a major currency?
2701 2011-07-19 20:20:42 <mtrlt> _why_
2702 2011-07-19 20:20:44 <TD> that accept and redeem each others dcoins
2703 2011-07-19 20:21:02 <justmoon> TD: uh no? why would I want to redeem dollar coins that someone else issued?
2704 2011-07-19 20:21:06 <phantomcircuit> mtrlt, the why is easily, simplicity
2705 2011-07-19 20:21:09 <justmoon> TD: they'd have to pay me to do that
2706 2011-07-19 20:21:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes it is
2707 2011-07-19 20:21:15 denisx has joined
2708 2011-07-19 20:21:18 <justmoon> TD: so it would still be them redeeming it
2709 2011-07-19 20:21:24 <mtrlt> and who is gonna ensure the convertibility?
2710 2011-07-19 20:21:30 <TD> yeah, i meant from the perspective of the holder
2711 2011-07-19 20:21:32 asuk has joined
2712 2011-07-19 20:21:44 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well by that logic "make it start and write better patches" is a valid answer
2713 2011-07-19 20:21:47 <justmoon> TD: if the issuer of whatever dollarcoins you're holding goes belly up, you're out of money
2714 2011-07-19 20:21:52 <TD> yes
2715 2011-07-19 20:21:57 <prof7bit> how would these "dollar coins" come into existence? who would sell then?
2716 2011-07-19 20:22:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: as if the patches have anythign to do with it
2717 2011-07-19 20:22:04 <TD> a consortium of issuers
2718 2011-07-19 20:22:07 <nanotube> anyway, if someone cares to try to make dollarcoin, let them be my guest. they won't survive past the first bankrun, because i bet one or more of the issuers will find it highly attractive to hold less dollars than they issue coins
2719 2011-07-19 20:22:08 <TD> consider the current exchanges
2720 2011-07-19 20:22:43 * jgarzik has a strong feeling that bitcoin7 is already fractional reserve
2721 2011-07-19 20:22:48 <justmoon> TD: so the advantage would be interoperability?
2722 2011-07-19 20:23:00 <justmoon> TD: but you wouldn't have fungibility among the different dollarcoins
2723 2011-07-19 20:23:13 <justmoon> TD: because the failure risk of the issuers wouldn't be homogenous
2724 2011-07-19 20:23:42 <TD> yes, there'd have to be a recreation of the banking system for dollarcoins to be trusted
2725 2011-07-19 20:23:43 <nanotube> jgarzik: what gives you that feeling?
2726 2011-07-19 20:23:59 <TD> eg, with mutual cross-audits to ensure full reserve is taking place
2727 2011-07-19 20:24:00 <nanotube> TD: wouldn't it be easier to just speed up ach? :)
2728 2011-07-19 20:24:09 <TD> i'd see the primary advantage being the ability to use cryptocontracts
2729 2011-07-19 20:24:17 <TD> rather than as a fully fledged competitor to bitcoin
2730 2011-07-19 20:24:29 <nanotube> so... stuff that bitcoin currently isn't used for at all, basically hehe
2731 2011-07-19 20:24:34 <TD> yeah
2732 2011-07-19 20:24:36 <nanotube> (and is doing quite well without)
2733 2011-07-19 20:24:44 <jgarzik> nanotube: the overall lazy way they run their site. no hard evidence. it just feels like the site owners are building up deposits, then will disappear one day, if they're not already investing the USD/EUR/... funds on deposit already
2734 2011-07-19 20:24:55 <TD> but think about implementing options in similar ways to how you can make escrow easier using multipay
2735 2011-07-19 20:25:02 <TD> the problem is, the most useful type of option is a currency exchange option
2736 2011-07-19 20:25:06 <jgarzik> bitcoin7 does not seem serious about anything, except taking deposits
2737 2011-07-19 20:25:12 <TD> and you can't do that cryptographically with the existing banking system, obviously
2738 2011-07-19 20:25:15 <TD> you need a bitcoin-like proxy
2739 2011-07-19 20:25:28 <TD> nanotube: but could it be doing better?
2740 2011-07-19 20:25:31 * TD thinks yes
2741 2011-07-19 20:25:34 <TD> look at clearcoin
2742 2011-07-19 20:25:48 <TD> gavin ran out of time for it, so now there's no good escrow provider for bitcoin transactions
2743 2011-07-19 20:26:11 <nanotube> jgarzik: hm i see. haven't been paying much attention to either th or b7 because they're too new and run by unknowns for me to trust them anyway :)
2744 2011-07-19 20:26:12 <BlueMatt> gavin ran out of time for clearcoin?
2745 2011-07-19 20:26:21 <nanotube> BlueMatt: clearcoin is defunct
2746 2011-07-19 20:26:23 <TD> contract enforced escrow can help make it easier to set up clearcoin type operations
2747 2011-07-19 20:26:25 <BlueMatt> oh, nvm hadnt seen that...
2748 2011-07-19 20:26:27 <justmoon> TD: clearcoin-like escrow would be best provided with custom transactions, no?
2749 2011-07-19 20:26:36 <justmoon> TD: yeah, what you said.
2750 2011-07-19 20:26:41 <nanotube> TD: yes, escrow-transactions would be useful
2751 2011-07-19 20:26:46 <TD> justmoon: well, what you really want is dispute mediation
2752 2011-07-19 20:26:49 <TD> clearcoin didn't do that
2753 2011-07-19 20:26:51 <nanotube> basically, decentralized clearcoin
2754 2011-07-19 20:26:52 <TD> as it was fully automated
2755 2011-07-19 20:27:06 <justmoon> TD: yep, that's why I said "like clearcoin"
2756 2011-07-19 20:27:08 <TD> yeah
2757 2011-07-19 20:27:09 <nanotube> and you could include real live arbitrators in the tx
2758 2011-07-19 20:27:13 <TD> exactly
2759 2011-07-19 20:27:30 TheZimm has joined
2760 2011-07-19 20:27:35 <TD> now consider auto-settled options. suddenly i don't have to trust you to make good on the option. it can be ensured via signatures (probably)
2761 2011-07-19 20:27:42 <TD> (haven't actually written down a working protocol)
2762 2011-07-19 20:27:48 <justmoon> TD: did you meet any bitcoiners in berlin?
2763 2011-07-19 20:27:51 <TD> nope
2764 2011-07-19 20:27:54 <justmoon> TD: I'm there tomorrow, one day only
2765 2011-07-19 20:27:56 <justmoon> TD: oh ok
2766 2011-07-19 20:28:02 <jgarzik> IMHO any good escrow requires human arbitrarion (see how escrow.com works). "burn the money" may provide a powerful incentive to get the transaction right... but it also provides a powerful incentive to avoid decentralized, automated escrow completely.
2767 2011-07-19 20:28:56 <justmoon> escrow.com is expensive as ****, what's wrong with mutually assured destruction a la clearcoin?
2768 2011-07-19 20:29:51 <b4epoche> stuff it back in the mines
2769 2011-07-19 20:30:07 <justmoon> b4epoche, the most popular option was charity I believe
2770 2011-07-19 20:30:35 <justmoon> but you could design a transaction that makes it go up into a fee I believe
2771 2011-07-19 20:31:16 <b4epoche> but I see jgarzik's point.
2772 2011-07-19 20:31:30 <b4epoche> did people avoid clearcoin for that reason?
2773 2011-07-19 20:32:17 <TD> the other advantage of dollarcoins, at least in theory, would be lower fees. right now bitcoins get converted into dollars and back again pretty frequently, i'm guessing
2774 2011-07-19 20:32:21 <justmoon> b4epoche, avoid? wasn't clearcoin quite popular?
2775 2011-07-19 20:32:41 AndyBr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2776 2011-07-19 20:32:42 Tritonio has joined
2777 2011-07-19 20:32:48 <TD> exchanges take a fee each time. as long as people trust that a dollarcoin is indeed redeemable, you could delay the conversions
2778 2011-07-19 20:33:23 <b4epoche> justmoon: I have no idea but being popular doesn't mean it couldn't have been more popular
2779 2011-07-19 20:33:33 <justmoon> TD: yeah, that mtgox's idea
2780 2011-07-19 20:33:50 <justmoon> b4epoche, true
2781 2011-07-19 20:33:50 <TD> the coupons thing ?
2782 2011-07-19 20:34:09 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
2783 2011-07-19 20:34:10 <justmoon> TD: having a blockchain where mtgoxusd, tradehilusd, etc. are traded like bitcoins
2784 2011-07-19 20:34:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137096 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 2007 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 16 hours, 57 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2277589.30814405
2785 2011-07-19 20:34:25 <luke-jr> did the new diff just hit?
2786 2011-07-19 20:34:25 <justmoon> TD: they mentioned actively developing this in their interview with bruce
2787 2011-07-19 20:34:47 <TD> interesting
2788 2011-07-19 20:34:48 Akiron has joined
2789 2011-07-19 20:34:49 <TD> i didn't see that one
2790 2011-07-19 20:34:50 <justmoon> anybody would be able to issue their own *USD, *EUR etc
2791 2011-07-19 20:35:06 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2792 2011-07-19 20:35:14 osmosis has joined
2793 2011-07-19 20:35:16 <justmoon> TD: they didn't mention a lot of details, and I'm not sure how much time they have to work on it
2794 2011-07-19 20:35:21 <Akiron> is anyone working on implementing the bit gold idea (http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2005/12/bit-gold.html ) using bitcoin?
2795 2011-07-19 20:36:20 <TD> i imagine they're pretty busy
2796 2011-07-19 20:36:24 freakazoid has joined
2797 2011-07-19 20:36:37 enquirer has quit (Quit: back soon)
2798 2011-07-19 20:36:49 <b4epoche> but I have to say, MagicalTux does seem to be getting stuff done
2799 2011-07-19 20:37:07 <justmoon> except raising my withdrawal limit
2800 2011-07-19 20:37:07 <b4epoche> although working with a moving target can be a pain
2801 2011-07-19 20:37:53 <justmoon> nah, he gave me a free vserver for three months, he cool :)
2802 2011-07-19 20:38:04 <TD> yeah
2803 2011-07-19 20:38:14 * TD is also waiting for his aml dox to be processed
2804 2011-07-19 20:38:21 <TD> they're still weeks behind on tickets it seems
2805 2011-07-19 20:38:33 <TD> either that or the euro bank holdups mean they are deliberately not processing these
2806 2011-07-19 20:38:53 <justmoon> TD: they have probably spent most of their users' holdings :P
2807 2011-07-19 20:39:07 <justmoon> j/k
2808 2011-07-19 20:39:11 <TD> heh
2809 2011-07-19 20:39:11 <justmoon> kind of a serious accusation
2810 2011-07-19 20:39:24 BTCTrader_ has joined
2811 2011-07-19 20:39:32 <justmoon> I used to have that awful humor, where I would go around saying terrible things followed by "just kidding"
2812 2011-07-19 20:39:36 <justmoon> ugh
2813 2011-07-19 20:39:47 <TD> didn't he do a tx specifically to prove he still owned that giant block of coins?
2814 2011-07-19 20:40:02 * TD somehow wasn't surprised that such a huge fraction of the total currency was sitting in an exchange
2815 2011-07-19 20:40:35 <BlueMatt> TD: do you know the actual number?
2816 2011-07-19 20:40:35 <jrmithdobbs> ya after 2 weeks of refusing to
2817 2011-07-19 20:40:40 BTCTrader has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2818 2011-07-19 20:40:40 BTCTrader_ is now known as BTCTrader
2819 2011-07-19 20:40:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the txn he did was 424242 iirc
2820 2011-07-19 20:41:07 <BlueMatt> damn
2821 2011-07-19 20:41:11 <TD> he was probably just busy with other things
2822 2011-07-19 20:41:20 <luke-jr> fyi, latest poclbm is broken at the new difficulty
2823 2011-07-19 20:41:28 <jrmithdobbs> TD: nah, he specifically said he wouldn't the several times he was asked
2824 2011-07-19 20:41:46 <jrmithdobbs> then suddenly out of nowhere he did
2825 2011-07-19 20:41:55 <jrmithdobbs> but w/e not gonna beat that dead horse any more
2826 2011-07-19 20:42:32 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs, did he announce it beforehand or just take credit for the transaction after it appeared? :P
2827 2011-07-19 20:42:44 <jrmithdobbs> justmoon: announced it in #mtgox
2828 2011-07-19 20:42:49 <b4epoche> might not be a bad miner: http://www.woot.com/
2829 2011-07-19 20:42:50 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs, kk :)
2830 2011-07-19 20:43:21 <b4epoche> if you aren't looking to roll your own
2831 2011-07-19 20:43:32 <BlueMatt> you guys really dont ever trust MagicalTux do you?
2832 2011-07-19 20:43:32 rethaw has joined
2833 2011-07-19 20:43:41 <BlueMatt> hes been around here forever
2834 2011-07-19 20:43:45 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r258b68cf2c69 poclbm-personal/Transport.py: Merge branch 'bugfix_difficulty_error' into combo http://tinyurl.com/3shls8g
2835 2011-07-19 20:43:46 <jrmithdobbs> justmoon: he's just an amateur that didn't understand how important public relations are in situations like that until after it was already too late
2836 2011-07-19 20:43:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he's proven himself to be untrustworthy
2837 2011-07-19 20:43:55 <jrmithdobbs> so no
2838 2011-07-19 20:44:00 <BlueMatt> lol, no he hasnt
2839 2011-07-19 20:44:05 <BlueMatt> hes proven he sucks at pr
2840 2011-07-19 20:44:10 <jrmithdobbs> in relation to security he has
2841 2011-07-19 20:44:14 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: I thought he handled the whole thing very well
2842 2011-07-19 20:44:24 <justmoon> jrmithdobbs, I'd say he's done a hell of a lot better job than I would in his position
2843 2011-07-19 20:44:27 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i had to troll him into deleting my account because he wouldn't
2844 2011-07-19 20:44:28 <BlueMatt> no, there hes proven that the old owner sucked at securty
2845 2011-07-19 20:44:50 <BlueMatt> why do you need an account deleted, just take the money and forget about it
2846 2011-07-19 20:44:51 <TD> he claimed he was owned by a security auditor, right
2847 2011-07-19 20:44:54 <TD> pretty amazing
2848 2011-07-19 20:45:04 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and during the process he accused me of being responsible for the compromise
2849 2011-07-19 20:45:12 <BlueMatt> TD: well it was technically an auditor...
2850 2011-07-19 20:45:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: so excuse me if I don't trust him as far as i can throw him on your say so
2851 2011-07-19 20:45:20 <TD> financial auditor, right, sorry
2852 2011-07-19 20:45:27 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: lol, ok whatever you guys say
2853 2011-07-19 20:45:49 <BlueMatt> TD: in any case, yea he made some missteps, but you cant honestly say you dont trust him?
2854 2011-07-19 20:46:13 <TD> i'm cool with tux
2855 2011-07-19 20:46:19 <jrmithdobbs> TD: no you didn't read the followup, he admitted to lieing about the auditor
2856 2011-07-19 20:46:35 <jrmithdobbs> TD: the supposedly compromised account now, supposedly, belonged to the original owner
2857 2011-07-19 20:46:40 <TD> where is that followup?
2858 2011-07-19 20:46:42 <jrmithdobbs> he changed his story like 4 times
2859 2011-07-19 20:46:57 <BlueMatt> no, he slightly changes his story once
2860 2011-07-19 20:47:01 <jrmithdobbs> TD: was in the press release that's linked on the left side of mtgox.com when logged in (or was for a while)
2861 2011-07-19 20:47:12 <TD> i'd expect the story to change after a breakin, as the facts are established
2862 2011-07-19 20:47:18 <BlueMatt> he said financial auditor, then he said it was the original owner (who had admin access because he wanted to be able to check that he was getting his %)
2863 2011-07-19 20:47:27 <senseles> Anyone here familiar with the xilinx ISE software? I had some questions regarding their pricing model
2864 2011-07-19 20:47:28 <BTCTrader> spreading FUD does no one any favors
2865 2011-07-19 20:47:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you skipped two steps
2866 2011-07-19 20:47:40 <b4epoche> honestly folks, I don't think he lied, I think he really was just guessing on what happened because everyone was demanding an explanation
2867 2011-07-19 20:47:44 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he also said there had never been any reported sqli exploits originally
2868 2011-07-19 20:47:46 <Zagitta> luke-jr: have you ever thought of making a small proxy, that each miner is supposed to run, that translate the stupid json-rcp protocol into a binary format and then sends it to the pool?
2869 2011-07-19 20:47:47 BTCTrader has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2870 2011-07-19 20:47:49 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: nope, I skipped none that I knew of, but seriously its over now...
2871 2011-07-19 20:47:49 <diki> new diff..cool
2872 2011-07-19 20:47:54 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2873 2011-07-19 20:47:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137097 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 2006 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 2 hours, 18 minutes, and 46 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2164581.51338325
2874 2011-07-19 20:48:02 <diki> lolwut?
2875 2011-07-19 20:48:05 <b4epoche> his biggest misstep was to say anything those first couple days other than he was working on it
2876 2011-07-19 20:48:05 <diki> 10 blocks already?
2877 2011-07-19 20:48:28 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and between claiming it was a financial auditor and the original owner he claimed that kevin was responsible
2878 2011-07-19 20:48:31 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2879 2011-07-19 20:48:34 BTCTrader has joined
2880 2011-07-19 20:48:48 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he also accused phantomcircuit at one point
2881 2011-07-19 20:48:52 <jrmithdobbs> and me
2882 2011-07-19 20:48:54 <jrmithdobbs> fuck that guy
2883 2011-07-19 20:49:09 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well all of those sound like bs considering you guys do all work for a competitor of his...
2884 2011-07-19 20:49:19 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i do not?!
2885 2011-07-19 20:49:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: if cisco systems is a competitor of mtgox then i missed something
2886 2011-07-19 20:49:41 <nanotube> TD: can't have autosettled options, since it involves transfer of fiat in exchange for bitcoins.
2887 2011-07-19 20:49:52 <BlueMatt> also, sending him an sqli vuln at 4 am his time and expecting him to respond asap is not a valid excuse...
2888 2011-07-19 20:50:04 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression you work with the bitcoinconsultancy
2889 2011-07-19 20:50:13 <luke-jr> Zagitta: no
2890 2011-07-19 20:50:13 <nanotube> <TD> the other advantage of dollarcoins, at least in theory, would be lower fees. right now bitcoins get converted into dollars and back again pretty frequently, i'm guessing <-- once bitcoin economy grows to include enough complete cycles, that won't be an issue anymore
2891 2011-07-19 20:50:14 <TD> nanotube: that's the point of dcoins, they act as a proxy for fiat
2892 2011-07-19 20:50:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i supposedly also work for tradehill
2893 2011-07-19 20:50:19 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, he does not
2894 2011-07-19 20:50:22 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: neither are true
2895 2011-07-19 20:50:27 <TD> and that'll take a loooooooong time
2896 2011-07-19 20:50:30 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: ah, well them my bad
2897 2011-07-19 20:50:47 <BlueMatt> in any case, I dont really care anymore, its long gone
2898 2011-07-19 20:50:49 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, everybody who works with us is on the bottom of http://www.bitcoinconsultancy.com/
2899 2011-07-19 20:51:11 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: meh, he hangs out with you guys and has the same opinion so much I lost track
2900 2011-07-19 20:51:15 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, also it was a CSRF the SQLi had already been used weeks before...
2901 2011-07-19 20:51:20 JFK911 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2902 2011-07-19 20:51:25 <BlueMatt> in any case, I dont really care anymore, its long gone
2903 2011-07-19 20:51:29 JFK911 has joined
2904 2011-07-19 20:51:42 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i discuss interesting technical stuff with technical people on the internet, they must employee me! or something
2905 2011-07-19 20:51:44 <jgarzik> TD: here's the MT follow-up: https://mtgox.com/press_release_20110630.html
2906 2011-07-19 20:51:55 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, I was mistaken, sorry
2907 2011-07-19 20:53:43 fn0rd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2908 2011-07-19 20:53:43 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2909 2011-07-19 20:53:56 <TD> jgarzik: ah thanks
2910 2011-07-19 20:54:00 <gjs278> lol... hurt mtgox reputation
2911 2011-07-19 20:54:15 <BlueMatt> gjs278: nope, depends on who you talk to
2912 2011-07-19 20:54:21 <gjs278> my guess is they just fucked up their steal
2913 2011-07-19 20:54:23 <gjs278> yeah
2914 2011-07-19 20:54:46 <b4epoche> wtf? http://charts.glbse.com/markets/
2915 2011-07-19 20:55:45 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2916 2011-07-19 20:56:27 <luke-jr> http://tinyurl.com/poclbm-problems
2917 2011-07-19 20:56:38 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2918 2011-07-19 20:57:13 <iz> i got poclbm problems, but a bitch ain't one..
2919 2011-07-19 20:57:31 <vegard> b4epoche: hm, was it hacked?
2920 2011-07-19 20:57:37 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2921 2011-07-19 20:57:57 <b4epoche> got there from: http://www.bitcoinconsultancy.com/
2922 2011-07-19 20:57:59 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: lol that's an awesome bug
2923 2011-07-19 21:01:17 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, i can assure you that if it was us trying to steal funds we wouldn't have only gotten 2k ;)
2924 2011-07-19 21:01:27 <gjs278> yeah
2925 2011-07-19 21:01:50 <phantomcircuit> whoever it was didn't really know what they were doing...
2926 2011-07-19 21:03:28 glassresistor has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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2928 2011-07-19 21:03:48 ciscoftw_l33t has joined
2929 2011-07-19 21:05:49 <ciscoftw_l33t> never compiled with cmake before... after running "cmake ." to build my (makefile), what is the next step (typically "./configure") but not with cmake???
2930 2011-07-19 21:06:18 <b4epoche> that's quite the nick, eh?
2931 2011-07-19 21:07:09 <ciscoftw_l33t> if your a linux noobe yeah
2932 2011-07-19 21:07:19 fnord0 has joined
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2935 2011-07-19 21:07:56 <Blitzboom> dollarcoins?
2936 2011-07-19 21:07:57 <manveru> cisco... srsly? :)
2937 2011-07-19 21:08:00 <Blitzboom> what have i missed?
2938 2011-07-19 21:08:29 <ciscoftw_l33t> :(
2939 2011-07-19 21:08:30 JFK911 has joined
2940 2011-07-19 21:09:00 pusle has quit ()
2941 2011-07-19 21:09:04 <nanotube> Blitzboom: dollarcoins would presumably be coins that are guaranteed 1:1 exchange rate with USD, by a consortium of USD-holding entities...
2942 2011-07-19 21:09:11 <ciscoftw_l33t> i suck, i have this box i build to crack hash as a side project (pyrit), and now i'd like it to run bitcoin when idle
2943 2011-07-19 21:09:20 <nanotube> Blitzboom: a hypothetical proposal... dunno if i'm a fan heh.
2944 2011-07-19 21:09:46 <ciscoftw_l33t> manveru: help me out with some basic CMAKE commands pls
2945 2011-07-19 21:10:00 <Blitzboom> nanotube: ok, and what is the advantage?
2946 2011-07-19 21:10:14 <nanotube> stable exchange rate
2947 2011-07-19 21:10:15 <Blitzboom> also, what would the entity demand for their service?
2948 2011-07-19 21:10:18 <manveru> ciscoftw_l33t: you run it, like `cmake`?
2949 2011-07-19 21:10:29 <nanotube> Blitzboom: that was not addressed
2950 2011-07-19 21:10:36 <Blitzboom> and how do they secure the block chain?
2951 2011-07-19 21:10:37 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2952 2011-07-19 21:10:38 <mtrlt> exchange rate as stable as the usd
2953 2011-07-19 21:10:44 <ciscoftw_l33t> yeah, then whats the equilvent to ./configure
2954 2011-07-19 21:10:53 <Blitzboom> noone wants to mine dollars
2955 2011-07-19 21:10:54 <Blitzboom> :D
2956 2011-07-19 21:11:11 <nanotube> Blitzboom: ask TD all these questions. he was the one who introduced it :)
2957 2011-07-19 21:11:17 Akiron has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2958 2011-07-19 21:11:36 groffer has joined
2959 2011-07-19 21:11:37 <nanotube> basically, it would be a centrally controlled blockchain
2960 2011-07-19 21:11:48 <nanotube> (or controlled by a small group of entities)
2961 2011-07-19 21:11:53 <Blitzboom> TD: wouldnât this entity need transaction fees for their existence, plus for the securing of the block chain?
2962 2011-07-19 21:11:56 <manveru> ciscoftw_l33t: i don't think there is any
2963 2011-07-19 21:12:10 <Blitzboom> also, how would the generation work?
2964 2011-07-19 21:12:18 <nanotube> Blitzboom: not much block chain securing needs to be done, if they're the only ones that have authority to create coins
2965 2011-07-19 21:12:24 <b4epoche> are wallets encrypted on 0.3.24? by default? at all?
2966 2011-07-19 21:12:35 <jrmithdobbs> no that's .4
2967 2011-07-19 21:12:36 <nanotube> b4epoche: no, .24 doesn't have wallet encryption functionality
2968 2011-07-19 21:12:37 <jgarzik> b4epoche: no encryption in 0.3.24
2969 2011-07-19 21:12:39 <Blitzboom> nanotube: uhm ⦠what
2970 2011-07-19 21:12:42 <Blitzboom> is that even possible?
2971 2011-07-19 21:12:48 <b4epoche> thank you all ;-)
2972 2011-07-19 21:12:59 <Blitzboom> centrally controlled block chains without proof of work necessary?
2973 2011-07-19 21:13:11 BlueMattBot has joined
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2975 2011-07-19 21:13:14 BlueMattBot has joined
2976 2011-07-19 21:13:15 <nanotube> Blitzboom: well, bitcoin is a decentralized accounting system. centralized ones have existed for millenia
2977 2011-07-19 21:13:25 <nanotube> what's so hard to believe about 'yet another centralized accounting system' /
2978 2011-07-19 21:13:26 <nanotube> heh
2979 2011-07-19 21:13:26 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2980 2011-07-19 21:13:37 <Blitzboom> yes, but how do they prevent double spending?
2981 2011-07-19 21:13:38 <nanotube> with a p2p network for distributing transactions tacked on
2982 2011-07-19 21:13:43 gjs278 has joined
2983 2011-07-19 21:13:46 denisx has joined
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2985 2011-07-19 21:14:10 <nanotube> Blitzboom: the central party can give preference to the transaction it receives first.
2986 2011-07-19 21:14:12 <nanotube> easy as pie
2987 2011-07-19 21:14:24 <nanotube> anyway, i don't even know if that's what td was thinking about
2988 2011-07-19 21:14:27 <Blitzboom> ok, so the central entity is the server of the block chain
2989 2011-07-19 21:14:38 <nanotube> but obviously the dollar-holder has to be the one who exclusively issues the coins
2990 2011-07-19 21:14:44 <nanotube> therefore has to be the one who exclusively does the mining
2991 2011-07-19 21:14:55 leroux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2992 2011-07-19 21:15:04 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, so you're back to a central token
2993 2011-07-19 21:15:06 <nanotube> it seems that we can even get rid of the block chain
2994 2011-07-19 21:15:12 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: yep exactly
2995 2011-07-19 21:15:21 <Blitzboom> wtf is the difference to paypal?!
2996 2011-07-19 21:15:23 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-106-201-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
2997 2011-07-19 21:15:24 <nanotube> basically, it becomes a paypal, with a p2p net for tx distribution
2998 2011-07-19 21:15:33 <b4epoche> nanotube, jgarzik: is there a mockup for the UI for 0.4?
2999 2011-07-19 21:15:48 <nanotube> b4epoche: pull code from git - it's there
3000 2011-07-19 21:15:53 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, except with a central issuer there is no need for the p2p net
3001 2011-07-19 21:15:54 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: its 100% identical with one more thing in the options menu
3002 2011-07-19 21:15:59 <phantomcircuit> you're already 100% trusting them
3003 2011-07-19 21:16:01 <jgarzik> b4epoche: what are you looking for? to see how wallet encryption UI works? if so, look at current git
3004 2011-07-19 21:16:06 <nanotube> b4epoche: presumably the ui is unchanged other than throwing up a dialog to enter a pw.
3005 2011-07-19 21:16:12 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: that being "Encrypt Wallet" or "Change wallet password"
3006 2011-07-19 21:16:15 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: indeed
3007 2011-07-19 21:16:23 <jgarzik> even for US dollars, bitcoin's mechanism is arguably more secure than the current interbank/ACH systems
3008 2011-07-19 21:16:25 dedeibel_ has joined
3009 2011-07-19 21:16:33 <b4epoche> ah, okay⦠I just wanted CocoaBitcoin to be consistent
3010 2011-07-19 21:16:36 <jgarzik> even with a central issuer, more security makes sense
3011 2011-07-19 21:16:39 <nanotube> jgarzik: but who would be 'mining' the blocks?
3012 2011-07-19 21:16:59 <jgarzik> nanotube: banks
3013 2011-07-19 21:17:06 <jgarzik> nanotube: not the little people
3014 2011-07-19 21:17:16 dedeibel has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3015 2011-07-19 21:17:18 <b4epoche> and since CocoaBitcoin is now working on top of 0.3.24, I figure I'd start working towards 0.4
3016 2011-07-19 21:17:20 <Blitzboom> itâs hilarious to think of banks "mining"
3017 2011-07-19 21:17:21 <nanotube> jgarzik: why waste the computational resources? when they can just maintain a centralized database
3018 2011-07-19 21:17:25 <Blitzboom> like "actually doing work"
3019 2011-07-19 21:17:38 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hey, what do you think of merging qt and cocoa (if they look good) now and just adding makefiles for them, I mean no one is working on autotools anymore...or are you?
3020 2011-07-19 21:17:44 <upb> phantomcircuit: grey on white theme, really ?:P
3021 2011-07-19 21:18:12 <nanotube> jgarzik: note also that mining cannot then be 'random' as it is now. since every coin minted has to be backed by USD. a bank has to say "i have these new 50 usd, so i am allowed to make 50 new bitcoins"
3022 2011-07-19 21:18:24 <nanotube> if it's random, you can have the case that a bank would mine more coins than it has usd
3023 2011-07-19 21:18:32 ciscoftw_l33t has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3024 2011-07-19 21:18:39 <jgarzik> nanotube: I wouldn't bother with proof of work, and just use cryptographic signing
3025 2011-07-19 21:18:44 <Blitzboom> nanotube: i heard you like fractional reserve
3026 2011-07-19 21:18:46 <nanotube> jgarzik: right, exactly
3027 2011-07-19 21:19:00 <Blitzboom> so we put some fractional reserve in your fractional reserve â¦
3028 2011-07-19 21:19:07 <nanotube> Blitzboom: haha
3029 2011-07-19 21:19:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: haven't put any code towards autotools, no
3030 2011-07-19 21:19:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: and more UIs are always welcome
3031 2011-07-19 21:19:26 <phantomcircuit> upb, what?
3032 2011-07-19 21:19:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: so you would think merging with alternate makefiles would be fine?
3033 2011-07-19 21:19:34 Incitatus has joined
3034 2011-07-19 21:19:57 JRWR has joined
3035 2011-07-19 21:19:58 JRWR has quit (Changing host)
3036 2011-07-19 21:19:58 JRWR has joined
3037 2011-07-19 21:20:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: that's the only option with the system we have right now
3038 2011-07-19 21:20:25 * b4epoche might have to learn to makefile-ize Xcode's build system ;-)
3039 2011-07-19 21:20:28 <upb> phantomcircuit: the consultancy page. impossible to read without select-all P
3040 2011-07-19 21:20:32 <phantomcircuit> oh
3041 2011-07-19 21:20:37 <phantomcircuit> yes not my design
3042 2011-07-19 21:20:40 <upb> ah
3043 2011-07-19 21:20:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: alright, gim, b4epoche do you guys want to work on pull-requesting qt and cocoa, Im tired of "waiting for autotools"
3044 2011-07-19 21:20:59 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3045 2011-07-19 21:21:01 <TD> Blitzboom: work would be shared with the bitcoin chain
3046 2011-07-19 21:21:37 <TD> Blitzboom: the dcoin issuers could incentivize miners by simply paying them a trivial amount. as traffic would be low it'd cost miners virtually nothing to share the work they're doing with bitcoin
3047 2011-07-19 21:21:42 <phantomcircuit> upb, http://i.imgur.com/e2BUO.png
3048 2011-07-19 21:21:45 <TD> so it'd be quite cheap to purchase a lot of security
3049 2011-07-19 21:21:59 <Blitzboom> i see ⦠like with namecoin
3050 2011-07-19 21:22:09 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: I dont think releasing as a xcode project is really a problem either, quite a few projects do that
3051 2011-07-19 21:22:11 <TD> rather than coinbase transactions being special (position zero) they'd be allowed anywhere in a block and must be signed by a small number of private keys
3052 2011-07-19 21:22:15 <upb> phantomcircuit: thats a bit better grey
3053 2011-07-19 21:22:22 <TD> which are held by the "banks" (using the term loosely as they'd have to be full reserve)
3054 2011-07-19 21:22:23 <phantomcircuit> upb, lol
3055 2011-07-19 21:22:36 <b4epoche> yea, if you want to build a Cocoa version, I'd hope you have Xcode installed
3056 2011-07-19 21:22:41 <upb> seriously, can you read the text on http://www.bitcoinconsultancy.com/ ?:P
3057 2011-07-19 21:22:43 <phantomcircuit> upb, it's beautiful ;)
3058 2011-07-19 21:22:47 <TD> coins would be moved around as normal (with signatures) and ordered by the network as normal
3059 2011-07-19 21:22:50 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3060 2011-07-19 21:22:52 Leo_ has joined
3061 2011-07-19 21:23:01 <TD> the point of the system would be to allow automatic, crypto enforced btc/fiat interactions
3062 2011-07-19 21:23:07 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: yep, I think if you could pull-request something based on latest head, it would be very nice ;)
3063 2011-07-19 21:23:08 <b4epoche> upb: the text is fine⦠the words: quite amusing actually
3064 2011-07-19 21:23:11 <TD> eg peer to peer currency exchanges
3065 2011-07-19 21:23:16 <TD> or crypto enforced futures contracts
3066 2011-07-19 21:23:23 stuhood has joined
3067 2011-07-19 21:23:24 <Leo_> Hi People, I'm using Debian 64 and tried to load bitcoin, but I see this message on terminal: EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_6system12system_errorEEEEE Cannot assign requested address bitcoin in ThreadRPCServer() terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::system::system_e
3068 2011-07-19 21:23:35 stuhood has left ()
3069 2011-07-19 21:23:38 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I'm sorry but the Git jargon has still no sunk in ;-)
3070 2011-07-19 21:23:45 <TD> and of course some people may actually prefer to trade in dcoins directly. they could exchange dollarcoins for eurocoins or whatever automatically, again, via crypto-enforced trades between chains
3071 2011-07-19 21:23:52 <Leo_> Anyone knows whats happening and how to fiz
3072 2011-07-19 21:23:54 <Leo_> fix
3073 2011-07-19 21:24:07 <TD> namecoin/bitcoin will be a good proving ground for some of these ideas
3074 2011-07-19 21:24:08 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3075 2011-07-19 21:24:08 <upb> try to bind to an address that can be assigned :)
3076 2011-07-19 21:24:13 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: meh, doesnt matter, if you can get a good clean patch, ie zip of the folder for cocoa, Id pull req it
3077 2011-07-19 21:24:22 <TD> as it'll be the first time there are two similar cryptocurrencies running on alternative chains
3078 2011-07-19 21:24:24 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3079 2011-07-19 21:24:45 JRWR has left ()
3080 2011-07-19 21:24:45 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I was hoping you'd say that ;-)
3081 2011-07-19 21:24:57 * BlueMatt wonders what he just signed up for...
3082 2011-07-19 21:24:58 <Blitzboom> TD: this is scary
3083 2011-07-19 21:25:03 <TD> why?
3084 2011-07-19 21:25:12 <jgarzik> TD: I think governments would actively stomp on P2P currency exchanges
3085 2011-07-19 21:25:25 <jgarzik> they like being gatekeepers of their own currencies
3086 2011-07-19 21:25:29 <TD> they still would be
3087 2011-07-19 21:25:31 <Blitzboom> because they could compete with bitcoin this way
3088 2011-07-19 21:25:38 <TD> dollarcoins would only be exchangable for actual dollars via the institutions
3089 2011-07-19 21:25:44 <TD> which would be regulated as such (financial services)
3090 2011-07-19 21:25:55 gjs278 has joined
3091 2011-07-19 21:25:58 <TD> Blitzboom: so what? bitcoin mashes together several good but different concepts
3092 2011-07-19 21:26:03 <jgarzik> I think it's better for bitcoin's health if other currencies were not intermixed, in that way
3093 2011-07-19 21:26:13 <TD> it may be that they are better split than together. i'm not convinced that's true, but it might be
3094 2011-07-19 21:26:38 <phantomcircuit> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/07/19/2012245/Bitcoin-Trademark-Troll-Now-Sending-Bogus-DMCA-Takedowns
3095 2011-07-19 21:26:40 <phantomcircuit> lolol
3096 2011-07-19 21:26:48 dedeibel_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3097 2011-07-19 21:26:58 <jgarzik> intermixing currencies like that raises the possibility of nations using bitcoin as "currency war" (quoting Brazil's FM) proxy, if bitcoin ever gets big
3098 2011-07-19 21:26:58 TheZimm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3099 2011-07-19 21:27:07 <BlueMatt> last I checked that trademark was rejected
3100 2011-07-19 21:27:08 <TD> how so ?
3101 2011-07-19 21:27:09 <BlueMatt> or abandoned
3102 2011-07-19 21:27:18 <jgarzik> keeping it separate helps enhance its status as a global, decentralized currency
3103 2011-07-19 21:27:26 <TD> well, bitcoin would still be a separate currency
3104 2011-07-19 21:27:28 <TD> that floats against others
3105 2011-07-19 21:27:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: abandoned in the US, yes
3106 2011-07-19 21:27:42 <TD> i'm suggesting *coin type currencies running on alternative chains
3107 2011-07-19 21:27:46 <jgarzik> TD: sure... intermixed at a technical level, not economic level
3108 2011-07-19 21:27:47 <Zagitta> phantomcircuit: phail
3109 2011-07-19 21:28:02 <jgarzik> TD: so, _not_ sharing main chain strength?
3110 2011-07-19 21:28:10 <jgarzik> that would be ok
3111 2011-07-19 21:28:21 <TD> i guess how much strength the chains share would depend on how many miners choose to work on both
3112 2011-07-19 21:28:33 <TD> if every miner chose to work on dcoin+bitcoin together, they'd have the same strength
3113 2011-07-19 21:28:34 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I just need to better segregate BitcoinTrader from CocoaBitcoin
3114 2011-07-19 21:28:35 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: is he pursuing it in the eu, or any other relevant jurisdiction?
3115 2011-07-19 21:28:48 SISUbtc has joined
3116 2011-07-19 21:28:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: should we not put bitcoin under some floss org?
3117 2011-07-19 21:28:58 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: ah, ok well mail it over when it looks good
3118 2011-07-19 21:29:16 TheZimm has joined
3119 2011-07-19 21:29:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: he said he is pursuing in "first to file" jurisdictions, which include China and India among others
3120 2011-07-19 21:29:36 <BlueMatt> mm
3121 2011-07-19 21:29:53 <BlueMatt> then lets be the first to get a legit one in the us
3122 2011-07-19 21:29:54 <TD> jgarzik: bitcoin is quite decentralized, but decentralization is hard
3123 2011-07-19 21:29:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the lawyer seemed to persuade Gavin that a single 'bitcoin org' wouldn't be the best idea
3124 2011-07-19 21:30:10 <TD> jgarzik: left to its own devices bitcoin will just centralize in other ways
3125 2011-07-19 21:30:14 <jgarzik> but maybe we can have multiple, smaller organizations
3126 2011-07-19 21:30:21 <TD> eg, around big trusted exchanges, escrow providers, etc
3127 2011-07-19 21:30:22 <jgarzik> 'bitcoin legal def fund', 'bitcoin dev fund', ...
3128 2011-07-19 21:30:36 <jgarzik> TD: natural network effect, yes
3129 2011-07-19 21:30:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: mmm, well it would be easier and quicker to just sign up with one of the floss orgs that hold copyright and protect from this kind of crap
3130 2011-07-19 21:30:52 BCBot has joined
3131 2011-07-19 21:31:05 <TD> jgarzik: i think there are often ways to decentralize, it's just harder. eg see pools vs p2pool
3132 2011-07-19 21:31:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: actually making an org is so much work...
3133 2011-07-19 21:31:23 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3134 2011-07-19 21:31:30 <jgarzik> gah
3135 2011-07-19 21:31:33 <Blitzboom> thatâs why satoshi should pay you guys :P
3136 2011-07-19 21:31:33 <jgarzik> mint a block, damn you
3137 2011-07-19 21:31:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes
3138 2011-07-19 21:33:00 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: plus if we were to join a floss org and split off later, I dont think it would nearly be a problem
3139 2011-07-19 21:33:12 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3140 2011-07-19 21:34:46 <Zagitta> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=30283.0 /facepalm
3141 2011-07-19 21:35:28 kluge has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3142 2011-07-19 21:36:52 <Leo_> no one could answer my message?
3143 2011-07-19 21:37:19 cdecker has joined
3144 2011-07-19 21:39:18 Joric has joined
3145 2011-07-19 21:40:19 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3146 2011-07-19 21:40:41 denisx has joined
3147 2011-07-19 21:41:51 <upb> Leo_: try to bind to an address that can be assigned
3148 2011-07-19 21:42:14 <Leo_> upb: how to do this?
3149 2011-07-19 21:42:27 <Leo_> upb: I'm newbie
3150 2011-07-19 21:42:45 <upb> umm i dont know find the parameters for ip & port
3151 2011-07-19 21:43:11 denisx_ has joined
3152 2011-07-19 21:44:10 b4epoche_ has joined
3153 2011-07-19 21:44:44 <Leo_> upb: ok, thanks. If you discover any information, I'm here
3154 2011-07-19 21:44:58 b4epoche_ has quit (Client Quit)
3155 2011-07-19 21:45:01 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3156 2011-07-19 21:45:01 denisx_ is now known as denisx
3157 2011-07-19 21:46:18 <Leo_> upb: If I paste my config file helps?
3158 2011-07-19 21:46:39 stalled has joined
3159 2011-07-19 21:46:49 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
3160 2011-07-19 21:47:02 <Leo_> upb: on my config file only has: rpcpassword=blablabla
3161 2011-07-19 21:47:13 AndyBr has joined
3162 2011-07-19 21:47:20 <AndyBr> raaaaage
3163 2011-07-19 21:49:04 <upb> Leo_: well the problem is that its trying to bind to an ip that you dont have
3164 2011-07-19 21:49:11 <upb> or something is already listening on the port
3165 2011-07-19 21:49:40 BTCTrader_ has joined
3166 2011-07-19 21:51:26 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
3167 2011-07-19 21:51:27 <Leo_> upb: but no idea how to fix it, right?
3168 2011-07-19 21:51:46 <forrestv> tcatm, p2pool rate in hashes per second is available at http://p2pool.forre.st:9332/rate
3169 2011-07-19 21:51:53 BTCTrader has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3170 2011-07-19 21:51:53 <upb> change the ip or port or close the process that is listening to it
3171 2011-07-19 21:51:54 BTCTrader_ is now known as BTCTrader
3172 2011-07-19 21:51:58 <forrestv> or on any other p2p node at port 9322 /rate :P
3173 2011-07-19 21:52:33 <Leo_> upb: but how to proceed with it? I'm kind of newbie
3174 2011-07-19 21:54:13 <jgarzik> forrestv: 9322 or 9332 ?
3175 2011-07-19 21:54:18 cuddlefish has joined
3176 2011-07-19 21:54:45 <nanotube> 332
3177 2011-07-19 21:56:16 <BlueMatt> free 1.5 BTC (if you can spend it): http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.msg380632#msg380632
3178 2011-07-19 21:56:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: is it in a block yet?
3179 2011-07-19 21:56:43 <jgarzik> come on, network
3180 2011-07-19 21:56:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: might want to retransmit it, Eligius restarted a few times
3181 2011-07-19 21:56:50 <jgarzik> one block an hour, poo
3182 2011-07-19 21:56:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I gave up and double-spent that one, gmaxwell had solved it with a proper tx anyway
3183 2011-07-19 21:57:01 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Eligius is going on 24 hours
3184 2011-07-19 21:57:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: LOL
3185 2011-07-19 21:57:18 <upb> Leo_: netstat -anop|grep whateverthatportis
3186 2011-07-19 21:57:23 <upb> see if theres anything else there
3187 2011-07-19 21:57:32 <BlueMatt> anyway, there is another free 1.5BTC at that link :)
3188 2011-07-19 21:58:33 <forrestv> jgarzik, 9332
3189 2011-07-19 21:58:53 <jgarzik> tcatm: ^^
3190 2011-07-19 21:59:01 <Leo_> upb: this command: netstat -anop|grep need sudo?
3191 2011-07-19 21:59:12 <jgarzik> Leo_: no
3192 2011-07-19 21:59:32 <Leo_> upb: so see the message:
3193 2011-07-19 21:59:42 stuhood1 has joined
3194 2011-07-19 21:59:58 <Leo_> upb: leonardo@debian:~$ netstat -anop|grep Uso: grep [OPÃÃO]... PADRÃO [ARQUIVO]... Experimente "grep --help" para mais informações. (Nem todos os processos puderam ser identificados, informações sobre processos de outrem não serão mostrados, você deve ser root para vê-los todos.) leonardo@debian:~$
3195 2011-07-19 22:00:36 <Leo_> upb: the message is in portuguese, can you understand?
3196 2011-07-19 22:00:40 <upb> ofcourse
3197 2011-07-19 22:01:12 <upb> it tells you need to read grep --help
3198 2011-07-19 22:01:20 <upb> because youre using it wrong
3199 2011-07-19 22:02:17 cdehaan has joined
3200 2011-07-19 22:02:33 <cdehaan> Hello! I have a VPS that has limited RAM (about 160 MB free) that I'd like to run Bitcoin on. I start up bitcoind and it's fine, but it very quickly consumes Memory until it crashes (say, within 15-30 minutes). I think it's because it's chomping away to catch up at the chain... is there anything I can do to prevent this?
3201 2011-07-19 22:03:12 <lianj> cdehaan: use a swapfile
3202 2011-07-19 22:03:16 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3203 2011-07-19 22:03:25 <nanotube> try setting maxconnections to something small.
3204 2011-07-19 22:03:26 b4epoche_ has joined
3205 2011-07-19 22:03:56 <Leo_> upb: someone told me to run: netstat -lntup and the result is: http://pastebin.com/hmf0nAN0
3206 2011-07-19 22:04:01 Marf has joined
3207 2011-07-19 22:05:36 <upb> so the port isnt in use
3208 2011-07-19 22:05:42 rynx has joined
3209 2011-07-19 22:06:18 <upb> which means you need to get in touch with someone who knows the bitcoin code :)
3210 2011-07-19 22:06:48 <Leo_> upb: anyone here know bitcoin code?
3211 2011-07-19 22:07:12 stuhood1 has left ()
3212 2011-07-19 22:08:00 <upb> yes
3213 2011-07-19 22:09:08 OneTimePad has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3214 2011-07-19 22:10:18 gp5st has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3215 2011-07-19 22:11:16 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3216 2011-07-19 22:12:35 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3217 2011-07-19 22:13:13 gjs278 has joined
3218 2011-07-19 22:13:19 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rfb1da4a / (4 files in 2 dirs): Major refactoring of block chain download. ... https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/fb1da4a7f821a99571ded96c7d5b9e1438522073
3219 2011-07-19 22:13:27 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, what do you need?
3220 2011-07-19 22:13:53 <nanotube> ;;bc,p2pool
3221 2011-07-19 22:13:53 <gribble> 819600.332
3222 2011-07-19 22:14:19 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3223 2011-07-19 22:14:19 fn0rd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3224 2011-07-19 22:14:26 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: I can't run bitcoin
3225 2011-07-19 22:14:28 idnar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3226 2011-07-19 22:15:04 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, what's the problem?
3227 2011-07-19 22:15:11 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: I see this message on terminal: http://pastebin.com/Xr3k6BTV
3228 2011-07-19 22:15:25 hvala has joined
3229 2011-07-19 22:16:13 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, you're likely already running a bitcoin
3230 2011-07-19 22:16:38 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: No, the program doesn't start
3231 2011-07-19 22:16:51 <Leo_> and terminate
3232 2011-07-19 22:16:52 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, check that nothing is running on 8333
3233 2011-07-19 22:17:25 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: remember I'm newbie. any command to see if something is running on 8333?
3234 2011-07-19 22:17:50 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, netstat -anp|grep 8333
3235 2011-07-19 22:18:58 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: http://pastebin.com/XkCt5dMF
3236 2011-07-19 22:19:18 <phantomcircuit> Leo_, check that nothing is running on 8332
3237 2011-07-19 22:19:28 <Leo_> one minuate
3238 2011-07-19 22:20:00 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: same message as pasted on pastebin
3239 2011-07-19 22:20:22 <phantomcircuit> strange
3240 2011-07-19 22:20:33 <phantomcircuit> do you have anything in ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf ?
3241 2011-07-19 22:20:46 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r739c19f / package.json : Update to forever 0.6.1. ... https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/739c19fe45e97cfd694167625bbda999c37c0de7
3242 2011-07-19 22:20:48 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: my bitcoin config file on has this info: rpcpassword=blablabla
3243 2011-07-19 22:21:08 <Leo_> only
3244 2011-07-19 22:22:14 pumpkin has joined
3245 2011-07-19 22:22:14 <phantomcircuit> using the official binary?
3246 2011-07-19 22:22:36 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3247 2011-07-19 22:23:36 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: I'm using the oficial packages from debian wheezy repository
3248 2011-07-19 22:24:13 <jrmithdobbs> get a unix book
3249 2011-07-19 22:24:40 <upb> maybe stracing it would show where the hell its trying to bind
3250 2011-07-19 22:25:09 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3251 2011-07-19 22:26:33 <Joric> BlueMatt, is it yours? http://66.179.240.71/test.pl
3252 2011-07-19 22:27:03 <BlueMatt> I dont write perl
3253 2011-07-19 22:27:06 <BlueMatt> not know perl
3254 2011-07-19 22:27:20 <BlueMatt> s/not/nor/
3255 2011-07-19 22:27:25 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3256 2011-07-19 22:27:36 <BlueMatt> looks like something a botnet would be using...
3257 2011-07-19 22:27:58 fnord0 has joined
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3259 2011-07-19 22:28:30 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
3260 2011-07-19 22:28:37 <diki> how does one become whitelisted on the forums?
3261 2011-07-19 22:28:46 Guest28654 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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3266 2011-07-19 22:32:20 <ciscoftw_l33t> ..been doing battle with rpcminer-cuda, when i try to start the rpc service, i get the following error;
3267 2011-07-19 22:32:33 <ciscoftw_l33t> "Unable to load CUDA module"
3268 2011-07-19 22:32:58 <ciscoftw_l33t> has anyone messed with this guys post regarding CUDA support.. http://0x80.org/blog/?p=385
3269 2011-07-19 22:33:14 <BlueMatt> dont use the puddinpop miner
3270 2011-07-19 22:33:19 <ciscoftw_l33t> :(
3271 2011-07-19 22:33:20 <BlueMatt> it works only with the puddinpop pool server
3272 2011-07-19 22:33:26 <BlueMatt> which no one has used in months
3273 2011-07-19 22:33:34 <ciscoftw_l33t> trying to keep my exisint pyrit config and it all uses cuda
3274 2011-07-19 22:34:01 <Leo_> phantomcircuit: no idea of how to fix the problem?
3275 2011-07-19 22:34:02 <BlueMatt> nvidias support opencl too, just use poclbm or some other miner
3276 2011-07-19 22:34:04 Guest28654 has joined
3277 2011-07-19 22:34:05 <ciscoftw_l33t> fail, it will work withever "server" i tell it to use via my rpc config
3278 2011-07-19 22:34:07 <BlueMatt> also, nvidias suck for mining
3279 2011-07-19 22:34:34 <ciscoftw_l33t> this is a psk macihne, not ment for bitcoin, it was doing almost 65k PMK a seconds
3280 2011-07-19 22:35:04 <upb> Leo_: run a strace ./youroriginalcommand > out.txt 2>&1
3281 2011-07-19 22:35:59 <Leo_> upb: so the exactly command is: ./bitcoind > out.txt 2>&1 ??
3282 2011-07-19 22:36:16 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3283 2011-07-19 22:38:02 Zarutian has joined
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3285 2011-07-19 22:40:12 <upb> no
3286 2011-07-19 22:40:17 rynx has joined
3287 2011-07-19 22:40:17 <upb> strace ./bitcoind > out.txt 2>&1
3288 2011-07-19 22:40:25 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3289 2011-07-19 22:40:56 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: er88 master * r92415ac / (daemon/settings.example.js lib/rpc/info.js): Added more basic info rpc commands ... https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/92415acec020763ef4391f7d77fea721c1a2e85d
3290 2011-07-19 22:41:00 Guest28654 is now known as abishai
3291 2011-07-19 22:41:32 <Leo_> upb: the result was a file out.txt with this text: bash: strace: comando não encontrado
3292 2011-07-19 22:42:21 d1g1t4l has joined
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3294 2011-07-19 22:45:05 <upb> lol
3295 2011-07-19 22:45:10 SISUbtc has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3296 2011-07-19 22:45:11 <upb> why are you using linux again ?
3297 2011-07-19 22:45:33 <upb> i dont mean it as an insult but you can wreck your system pretty easily
3298 2011-07-19 22:45:51 cdehaan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3299 2011-07-19 22:46:23 <Leo_> upb:I installed strace package but same message
3300 2011-07-19 22:47:59 devon_hillard has joined
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3306 2011-07-19 22:52:38 <jgarzik> forrestv, nanotube: does p2pool require a modified bitcoind?
3307 2011-07-19 22:53:08 <forrestv> jgarzik, no
3308 2011-07-19 22:53:55 bitcoinbulletin has joined
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3312 2011-07-19 23:03:27 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-106-201-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
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3314 2011-07-19 23:04:08 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
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3317 2011-07-19 23:06:14 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3318 2011-07-19 23:07:02 <jgarzik> average blocks per hour: 5.88
3319 2011-07-19 23:07:04 <jgarzik> whee :)
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3322 2011-07-19 23:07:57 freewil`awayforr is now known as freewil
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3326 2011-07-19 23:09:09 <marvinm_> ;;bc,stats
3327 2011-07-19 23:09:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137102 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 2001 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 weeks, 0 days, 18 hours, 29 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1156828.42408613
3328 2011-07-19 23:09:16 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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3330 2011-07-19 23:11:37 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
3331 2011-07-19 23:11:38 <gribble> 137102
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3349 2011-07-19 23:35:39 Zagitta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3350 2011-07-19 23:39:50 Gonzago has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3351 2011-07-19 23:42:07 ciscoftw_l33t has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3352 2011-07-19 23:45:12 klikklak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3353 2011-07-19 23:46:01 Xunie has joined
3354 2011-07-19 23:47:08 JFK911 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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3357 2011-07-19 23:51:45 <devrandom> ;;later tell justmoon sorry, no docs on peergroup, but let me know if you have questions
3358 2011-07-19 23:51:46 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
3359 2011-07-19 23:52:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: apparently bitcoind stopped accepting SIGHUP or something related to & between .22 and .23 -.-
3360 2011-07-19 23:53:00 mtrlt has joined
3361 2011-07-19 23:53:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so...it was your patches
3362 2011-07-19 23:54:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, I didn't change .22 to .23
3363 2011-07-19 23:54:52 <luke-jr> but it might have been Ctrl-C on the script launching it
3364 2011-07-19 23:55:05 <luke-jr> does that kill stuff launched iwth & ?
3365 2011-07-19 23:55:43 <BlueMatt> depends, but yes sometimes
3366 2011-07-19 23:55:44 cuddlefish has joined
3367 2011-07-19 23:55:53 <BlueMatt> typically only when you kill the shell, but it depends on the shell
3368 2011-07-19 23:56:01 <luke-jr> BASH
3369 2011-07-19 23:56:06 <luke-jr> strange thing is, I know it used to work
3370 2011-07-19 23:56:17 <luke-jr> on this same exact code, come to think of it :|
3371 2011-07-19 23:56:30 <luke-jr> oh well, -daemon works
3372 2011-07-19 23:59:26 * cuddlefish is fighting a parser still
3373 2011-07-19 23:59:40 <cuddlefish> off by 1 error somewhere, yay