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16 2011-07-20 00:08:58 <devrandom> BlueMatt: do you know what % of network is using .24?
17 2011-07-20 00:09:49 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I cant say, it appears that .24 nodes are getting their connection slots full really quick
18 2011-07-20 00:10:31 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I can say that .23 nodes have gone down pretty far, but its still not enough, the number of .24 accepting is still fairly low
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24 2011-07-20 00:24:27 <cuddlefish> Aha
25 2011-07-20 00:24:28 <cuddlefish> endianness in the varstr!
26 2011-07-20 00:24:28 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i could modify my python client just a bit and it could relay blocks/transactions only limited by the bandwidth of the host
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28 2011-07-20 00:24:40 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: you have a python client too? <<
29 2011-07-20 00:24:47 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: ok...?
30 2011-07-20 00:24:55 <phantomcircuit> yes but mine works
31 2011-07-20 00:25:02 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, is that something that would be useful
32 2011-07-20 00:25:06 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea
33 2011-07-20 00:25:27 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: the regular client does that fine, a bit too much overhead but its not a huge deal
34 2011-07-20 00:26:06 <phantomcircuit> cuddlefish, i think pycoin uses some of my code?
35 2011-07-20 00:26:07 <phantomcircuit> iono
36 2011-07-20 00:26:12 <phantomcircuit> no it doesn't actually
37 2011-07-20 00:26:17 <cuddlefish> no
38 2011-07-20 00:26:27 <cuddlefish> got parsing working, yay
39 2011-07-20 00:26:54 <cuddlefish> Container(checksum = None, command = 'version', length = 85, magic = 3652501241L, payload = Container(addr_me = Container(ip = '\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\xff\xff\n\x00\x00\x01', port = 56054, services = 1), addr_you = Container(ip = '\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\xff\xff\n\x00\x00\x02', port = 8333, services = 1), nonce = 1393780771635895773L, proto_sub_version = '', proto_version = 31900, services = 1, start_he
40 2011-07-20 00:27:01 <cuddlefish> i love construct :D
41 2011-07-20 00:27:15 karnac has joined
42 2011-07-20 00:27:15 <phantomcircuit> dude...
43 2011-07-20 00:27:34 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: that's the wiki's example packet
44 2011-07-20 00:27:43 <phantomcircuit> lol
45 2011-07-20 00:28:05 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: the cool thing though
46 2011-07-20 00:28:12 <cuddlefish> is that that parser goes both ways
47 2011-07-20 00:28:16 <cuddlefish> it'll also build packets
48 2011-07-20 00:28:27 ByronJohnson has joined
49 2011-07-20 00:28:34 <phantomcircuit> uh huh
50 2011-07-20 00:28:44 <phantomcircuit> cuddlefish, http://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
51 2011-07-20 00:28:49 <phantomcircuit> had that working for months
52 2011-07-20 00:28:56 <phantomcircuit> just stopped caring
53 2011-07-20 00:29:16 <phantomcircuit> also the sqlite schema is slightly off
54 2011-07-20 00:29:30 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: the structs! they burn!
55 2011-07-20 00:29:49 <phantomcircuit> the whats?
56 2011-07-20 00:29:51 <phantomcircuit> oh
57 2011-07-20 00:29:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah
58 2011-07-20 00:30:20 <cuddlefish> bravo uses construct, too
59 2011-07-20 00:30:20 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
60 2011-07-20 00:30:33 <cuddlefish> since Minecraft is the protocol from hell
61 2011-07-20 00:30:40 <cuddlefish> no packet separators
62 2011-07-20 00:30:43 <cuddlefish> magic bytes
63 2011-07-20 00:30:44 <cuddlefish> etc
64 2011-07-20 00:31:28 <cuddlefish> you desync your parser, you are screwed.
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66 2011-07-20 00:32:45 <phantomcircuit> cuddlefish, didn't know about this library
67 2011-07-20 00:32:48 <phantomcircuit> looks nice
68 2011-07-20 00:32:51 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: oh yes.
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70 2011-07-20 00:33:39 <phantomcircuit> can it do streaming construction?
71 2011-07-20 00:33:51 <cuddlefish> what do you mean
72 2011-07-20 00:34:18 lumos has joined
73 2011-07-20 00:34:22 <phantomcircuit> can i push buffers to it and get like the first field
74 2011-07-20 00:34:26 <cuddlefish> one sec
75 2011-07-20 00:34:31 <phantomcircuit> even if it doesn't have the last field yet
76 2011-07-20 00:34:47 <lumos> lizthegrey,
77 2011-07-20 00:34:53 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: I think so, yes
78 2011-07-20 00:35:49 <cuddlefish> phantomcircuit: yep
79 2011-07-20 00:35:49 <cuddlefish> http://construct.wikispaces.com/tut-meta#toc8
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82 2011-07-20 00:37:46 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, wow you weren't kidding
83 2011-07-20 00:37:59 <phantomcircuit> i just turned on a git HEAD build and it's got 43 connections
84 2011-07-20 00:38:57 <BlueMatt> yea, they go really quick...
85 2011-07-20 00:39:03 <BlueMatt> I hit 150 in like 10 minutes
86 2011-07-20 00:39:21 <nanotube> is it really 10m ram per connection?
87 2011-07-20 00:39:32 <BlueMatt> sounds a bit high
88 2011-07-20 00:39:38 <phantomcircuit> it's 10 MB max
89 2011-07-20 00:39:44 <phantomcircuit> maybe it's been lowered
90 2011-07-20 00:39:56 <BlueMatt> 10MB allocated per connection for what?
91 2011-07-20 00:39:57 <phantomcircuit> used to be unlimited...
92 2011-07-20 00:40:00 <BlueMatt> I dont think we do that much
93 2011-07-20 00:40:02 <phantomcircuit> max allocated
94 2011-07-20 00:40:06 <BlueMatt> oh, you mean buffer
95 2011-07-20 00:40:07 <BlueMatt> yea
96 2011-07-20 00:40:18 <phantomcircuit> yeah
97 2011-07-20 00:40:21 <nanotube> mm
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100 2011-07-20 00:41:33 <phantomcircuit> yes it's default 10MB recv/send buffer
101 2011-07-20 00:41:45 <phantomcircuit> so actually 20 MB/connection max if you have a clever attacker
102 2011-07-20 00:42:20 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
103 2011-07-20 00:42:52 <BlueMatt> it would be really hard to get the recv buffer full
104 2011-07-20 00:42:55 EPiSKiNG- has joined
105 2011-07-20 00:43:02 <BlueMatt> but yea, if there is a bug somewhere maybe you could
106 2011-07-20 00:43:58 <phantomcircuit> i dont even remember what the buffer is called
107 2011-07-20 00:43:59 <phantomcircuit> jeez
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111 2011-07-20 00:47:02 <BlueMatt> thats kinda funny, freewill is away, I suppose hes all in the hands of fate
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113 2011-07-20 00:47:43 <phantomcircuit> lol
114 2011-07-20 00:48:15 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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116 2011-07-20 00:50:19 <phantomcircuit> memcpy(&vRecv[nPos], pchBuf, nBytes);
117 2011-07-20 00:50:20 <phantomcircuit> lol
118 2011-07-20 00:50:22 <phantomcircuit> seriously?
119 2011-07-20 00:50:30 <phantomcircuit> std::copy not good enough for us
120 2011-07-20 00:50:48 <BlueMatt> whats wrong with memcpy?
121 2011-07-20 00:50:49 <upb> memcpy is used a lot :)
122 2011-07-20 00:51:05 <phantomcircuit> mixing memcpy with std::vector is just wrong
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125 2011-07-20 00:51:30 <phantomcircuit> it's like peanut butter and pickles
126 2011-07-20 00:51:34 <phantomcircuit> just no
127 2011-07-20 00:51:41 <BlueMatt> it works just fine last time I checked
128 2011-07-20 00:51:55 <upb> well thats not the point :D
129 2011-07-20 00:53:15 <upb> translating C to C++ by making a struct per file and all methods static works fine too
130 2011-07-20 00:53:15 <BlueMatt> meh, make a pull request if its so bad
131 2011-07-20 00:53:56 rynx has joined
132 2011-07-20 00:54:54 <phantomcircuit> i forgot that CDataStream was a duck typed c++ class
133 2011-07-20 00:55:16 <jrmithdobbs> these yubikey things are pretty damned sweet
134 2011-07-20 00:56:09 <Joric> BlueMatt, i hate you so much :) i'm trying to decode/hash that damn string several hours already
135 2011-07-20 00:56:25 <BlueMatt> Joric: lol, which string?
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139 2011-07-20 01:04:57 <leo> hi people, I'm with a boring problem trying to start bitcoin with debian
140 2011-07-20 01:05:10 <leo> ************************ EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_6system12system_errorEEEEE Cannot assign requested address bitcoin in ThreadRPCServer() terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::system::system_error> >' what(): Cannot assign requested address Abortado
141 2011-07-20 01:05:20 <leo> I don't see a solution to this problem
142 2011-07-20 01:05:38 <BlueMatt> are you out of memory, with oom killer disabled or something?
143 2011-07-20 01:05:52 <cuddlefish> leo: I see
144 2011-07-20 01:05:59 <leo> tell me
145 2011-07-20 01:06:02 <cuddlefish> leo: you've got 2 bitcoinds running
146 2011-07-20 01:06:10 <cuddlefish> it can't bind the port or something
147 2011-07-20 01:06:14 <BlueMatt> ah, that assign
148 2011-07-20 01:06:30 <leo> but how to fix it?
149 2011-07-20 01:06:38 <BlueMatt> only run one bitcoind
150 2011-07-20 01:06:52 <cuddlefish> netstat -b | grep 833[0-9]
151 2011-07-20 01:07:12 <cuddlefish> kill the PID
152 2011-07-20 01:07:33 <leo> remember: i'm newbie. will load the command netstat -b | grep 833[0-9]
153 2011-07-20 01:07:46 <leo> what means kill the pid?
154 2011-07-20 01:07:46 <cuddlefish> it'll tell you the PID of your bitcoind
155 2011-07-20 01:07:53 <cuddlefish> leo: oh, what OS
156 2011-07-20 01:08:04 <leo> debian wheezy
157 2011-07-20 01:08:10 <cuddlefish> okay
158 2011-07-20 01:08:11 <cuddlefish> yeah
159 2011-07-20 01:08:44 <cuddlefish> so netstat -a. not -b, I typo'd
160 2011-07-20 01:09:07 <leo> http://pastebin.com/VBbmyTzW
161 2011-07-20 01:09:29 <leo> a?
162 2011-07-20 01:09:30 <cuddlefish> yah, -a
163 2011-07-20 01:09:47 <leo> ok, so: netstat -a | grep 833[0-9]
164 2011-07-20 01:09:56 <cuddlefish> yes
165 2011-07-20 01:10:06 <cuddlefish> it might take a while
166 2011-07-20 01:10:08 <leo> this command, nothing happens
167 2011-07-20 01:10:22 <leo> leonardo@debian:~$ netstat -a | grep 833[0-9]
168 2011-07-20 01:10:32 <cuddlefish> no return value? hmm
169 2011-07-20 01:10:38 <leo> no
170 2011-07-20 01:10:38 <cuddlefish> ps axl | grep bitcoin
171 2011-07-20 01:10:45 <leo> nothing happens
172 2011-07-20 01:10:45 <cuddlefish> do that
173 2011-07-20 01:11:02 <leo> one minute
174 2011-07-20 01:11:10 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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176 2011-07-20 01:11:33 <leo> leonardo@debian:~$ ps axl | grep bitcoin 0 1000 10268 10194 20 0 7776 848 - S+ pts/1 0:00 grep bitcoin
177 2011-07-20 01:11:37 <cuddlefish> hmm.
178 2011-07-20 01:11:52 <cuddlefish> so there's no bitcoin process...
179 2011-07-20 01:12:03 <cuddlefish> try starting bitcoin again
180 2011-07-20 01:12:10 <leo> ok
181 2011-07-20 01:12:26 <leo> leonardo@debian:~$ bitcoind ************************ EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_6system12system_errorEEEEE Cannot assign requested address bitcoin in ThreadRPCServer() terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::system::system_error> >' what(): Cannot assign reques
182 2011-07-20 01:12:49 <cuddlefish> hmm
183 2011-07-20 01:13:02 <leo> strange right
184 2011-07-20 01:13:08 hahuang65 has quit ()
185 2011-07-20 01:13:08 <cuddlefish> post your bitcoin.conf, without un/password
186 2011-07-20 01:13:23 <leo> ok, one minite
187 2011-07-20 01:14:48 <leo> the path is?
188 2011-07-20 01:14:50 <leo> sorry
189 2011-07-20 01:14:58 <cuddlefish> have you changed it at all?
190 2011-07-20 01:15:31 <leo> no
191 2011-07-20 01:15:35 <leo> just forgot
192 2011-07-20 01:15:49 <cuddlefish> hmm.
193 2011-07-20 01:15:51 <cuddlefish> weeeird.
194 2011-07-20 01:15:53 <leo> ops
195 2011-07-20 01:15:54 <leo> found
196 2011-07-20 01:15:59 <leo> many folders
197 2011-07-20 01:16:14 <leo> on bitcoin config file has only the:
198 2011-07-20 01:16:25 <leo> rpcpassword=
199 2011-07-20 01:16:29 <leo> and the password
200 2011-07-20 01:16:34 <leo> nothing more
201 2011-07-20 01:16:47 <cuddlefish> hm.
202 2011-07-20 01:16:55 <cuddlefish> don't know what it is
203 2011-07-20 01:17:25 <cuddlefish> s0rry
204 2011-07-20 01:17:34 <leo> if you look here, I see on logs one guy with same problem: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/06/17/8
205 2011-07-20 01:18:02 <leo> cuddlefish: Don't know what to do too
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211 2011-07-20 01:22:27 <Edogaa_> 5000 vs 6000 radeon cards?
212 2011-07-20 01:22:30 <Edogaa_> are they still worth it?
213 2011-07-20 01:22:41 <Edogaa_> can I mine 50 bitcoins with just 1 radeon card?
214 2011-07-20 01:22:48 <Edogaa_> or should I join a pool?
215 2011-07-20 01:22:48 <Edogaa_> etc...etc...
216 2011-07-20 01:24:00 <Edogaa_> I was considering thr 6970 since it was more high end :/
217 2011-07-20 01:24:06 <Edogaa_> or rather it looks nice
218 2011-07-20 01:24:10 <Edogaa_> but i'm not sure
219 2011-07-20 01:24:12 <Edogaa_> recommendations
220 2011-07-20 01:24:13 <Graet> wrong chan really, but either mine fine, depends on your power etc prices, yes but could take years a pool would suit you better
221 2011-07-20 01:24:40 <BlueMatt> yea, you might try #bitcoin-mining they might be of a bit more help...
222 2011-07-20 01:24:48 <Graet> dude this is the developers chan, try #bitcoin-mining for mining questions
223 2011-07-20 01:24:52 <Edogaa_> Oh
224 2011-07-20 01:24:53 <Edogaa_> sorry
225 2011-07-20 01:24:56 <Graet> :)
226 2011-07-20 01:24:58 <Edogaa_> I haven't been here in a looooooooooooong
227 2011-07-20 01:24:59 <Edogaa_> time
228 2011-07-20 01:25:00 <Edogaa_> so its like
229 2011-07-20 01:25:02 <Edogaa_> I'm unsure XD
230 2011-07-20 01:25:17 <Graet> you will get relevant help there :)
231 2011-07-20 01:28:30 pixglen has joined
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233 2011-07-20 01:32:26 leo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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235 2011-07-20 01:39:42 <leo> Hi, this helps to find the problem? http://pastebin.com/15ERMpVv
236 2011-07-20 01:40:00 Beremat has joined
237 2011-07-20 01:40:20 <WakiMiko> http://images.4chan.org/g/src/1311120530008.png
238 2011-07-20 01:45:51 <leo> upb: you there?
239 2011-07-20 01:46:35 <leo> cuddlefish: you there?
240 2011-07-20 01:46:58 <leo> phantomcircuit: you there?
241 2011-07-20 01:47:35 <jrmithdobbs> lol xchat screenshots on white collar
242 2011-07-20 01:47:57 <jrmithdobbs> love this show, hate when tv shows do computer crime episodes :(
243 2011-07-20 01:48:45 <b4epoche_> doesn't it make you wonder about /everything/ on TV when they never get something you know about correct?
244 2011-07-20 01:48:47 <leo> Hi people, I'm trying to run bitcoin on debian wheeze but the program is not starting. Appear this message:
245 2011-07-20 01:48:49 <leo> EXCEPTION: N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_6system12system_errorEEEEE Cannot assign requested address bitcoin in ThreadRPCServer() terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::system::system_error> >' what(): Cannot assign requested address Abortado
246 2011-07-20 01:49:22 <leo> I would like to know if this info helps to discover the problem: http://pastebin.com/15ERMpVv
247 2011-07-20 01:53:01 <jrmithdobbs> did you know that the hackers communicate with the eye arrrr see?
248 2011-07-20 01:53:06 <jrmithdobbs> or internet relay chats
249 2011-07-20 01:56:56 Beccara has joined
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252 2011-07-20 02:00:55 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, rofl
253 2011-07-20 02:01:00 <phantomcircuit> eye aaaarrrrrrrrr see
254 2011-07-20 02:01:55 <leo> phantomcircuit: are you able to find any other information with this: http://pastebin.com/15ERMpVv
255 2011-07-20 02:03:31 <phantomcircuit> leo, you're sure there is only 1 line in bitcoin.conf?
256 2011-07-20 02:04:13 <leo> phantomcircuit: yes, only rpcpassword
257 2011-07-20 02:04:22 <phantomcircuit> then i haven't a clue
258 2011-07-20 02:04:31 <leo> ok, thanks
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274 2011-07-20 02:39:15 <sacarlson> I guess I need a miner that works from getwork that still runs on cpu based machine, do any or all of them work without a GPU?
275 2011-07-20 02:39:46 <sacarlson> I only need 300kh/sec or less so speed is not a problem
276 2011-07-20 02:39:47 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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279 2011-07-20 02:40:48 freewil`away is now known as freewil
280 2011-07-20 02:41:00 <jgarzik> sacarlson: sure, CPU miners exist in addition to GPU miners
281 2011-07-20 02:41:14 <jgarzik> sacarlson: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1925.0 is one example
282 2011-07-20 02:41:21 Beremat has joined
283 2011-07-20 02:41:28 <sacarlson> jgarzik: just point me , ok let me look at that one thanks
284 2011-07-20 02:44:01 bitcoinbulletin has joined
285 2011-07-20 02:44:49 <sacarlson> jgarzik: that looks perfect, but as a bit old but as long as it still works
286 2011-07-20 02:45:05 <jgarzik> sacarlson: what is old?
287 2011-07-20 02:45:17 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
288 2011-07-20 02:45:30 <sacarlson> jgarzik: nov 2010
289 2011-07-20 02:46:07 <sacarlson> I don't see any git connections for it so I assume it might be old but I'll give this a try
290 2011-07-20 02:46:07 <jgarzik> sacarlson: that was when it was originally posted, not when it was last updated. on the forums, it is customary to update the top post continually, as new updates of software are released.
291 2011-07-20 02:46:23 <Joric> are you going to drop forum.bitcoin.org?
292 2011-07-20 02:46:26 <jgarzik> sacarlson: ? the git repository is right there in the top post
293 2011-07-20 02:46:36 <jgarzik> Joric: it will be renamed to forum.bitcointalk.org
294 2011-07-20 02:46:44 <sacarlson> jgarzik: oh I better look again
295 2011-07-20 02:47:34 <sacarlson> jgarzik: oh wow I didn't even read to the bottom of the first post that says it's superceded
296 2011-07-20 02:47:47 <sacarlson> I didn't have my first cup of coffee yet
297 2011-07-20 02:48:09 <jgarzik> sacarlson: cgminer works, but may not be the best choice it turns out, as it is focused more on GPU than CPU mining
298 2011-07-20 02:48:30 <jgarzik> sacarlson: some people are finding that plain 'ole cpuminer is better
299 2011-07-20 02:48:46 <jgarzik> sacarlson: regardless, you have two examples, and ufasoft makes a third
300 2011-07-20 02:50:27 <sacarlson> cgminer is saying they will work with eather cpu or gpu,
301 2011-07-20 02:52:12 <sacarlson> ok my coffee is kicking in I'll try the cpuminer just to be safe
302 2011-07-20 02:52:37 <sacarlson> I now see the git for the cpuminer also
303 2011-07-20 02:53:16 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
304 2011-07-20 02:53:19 TheSeven has joined
305 2011-07-20 02:53:20 <Joric> "reporters were quoting random bs from the forums as official announcements" i badly want to read this :)
306 2011-07-20 02:54:31 <sacarlson> Joric: I haven't seen any such reports of droping forum.bitcoin.org
307 2011-07-20 02:55:08 fabianhjr has joined
308 2011-07-20 02:55:35 <fabianhjr> Hello ladies and gentlemen, this is going to be very exciting. How has everyone been?
309 2011-07-20 02:57:39 xelister has joined
310 2011-07-20 03:01:21 <AlonzoTG> I hate the linux kernel.
311 2011-07-20 03:01:52 <xelister> AlonzoTG: rewrite it. or gnu hurd
312 2011-07-20 03:02:02 <AlonzoTG> I was offered a job,
313 2011-07-20 03:02:15 <AlonzoTG> but to get the interview I had to write some kernel modules.
314 2011-07-20 03:02:20 <AlonzoTG> But there is no map for the kernel?
315 2011-07-20 03:02:23 <AlonzoTG> Why?
316 2011-07-20 03:02:29 <AlonzoTG> becuz they change it EVERY WEEK!!!
317 2011-07-20 03:02:33 <AlonzoTG> So it's not documented.
318 2011-07-20 03:02:38 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: ls(1) is your map
319 2011-07-20 03:02:47 <AlonzoTG> ?
320 2011-07-20 03:02:56 <AlonzoTG> ls(1)????
321 2011-07-20 03:03:41 <xelister> AlonzoTG: it seems this is not a job for you
322 2011-07-20 03:03:57 <AlonzoTG> But seriously, WTF???
323 2011-07-20 03:04:18 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: what are you looking / hoping for?
324 2011-07-20 03:04:32 <AlonzoTG> I'm trying to avoid having to learn Spring Framework. =\
325 2011-07-20 03:04:41 <AlonzoTG> I hate web programming.
326 2011-07-20 03:04:50 <Diablo-D3> seam 3 > spring
327 2011-07-20 03:05:26 <AlonzoTG> Probably.
328 2011-07-20 03:05:41 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: there is no Spring Framework in the kernel, so I don't know what you're talking about
329 2011-07-20 03:05:48 <AlonzoTG> The problem is that Spring tries to support every style of programming,
330 2011-07-20 03:05:49 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: if you have kernel questions, I can answer them
331 2011-07-20 03:05:58 <Diablo-D3> AlonzoTG: no, its because its a pile of shit.
332 2011-07-20 03:05:59 <AlonzoTG> so it's really hard to find the best way to solve your problem.
333 2011-07-20 03:06:38 <AlonzoTG> All the jobs in my area want either Spring or Visual Basic #
334 2011-07-20 03:06:43 <AlonzoTG> or C#
335 2011-07-20 03:07:03 <AlonzoTG> or anything that is directly tied to a certain monopolistic software company in Redmond.
336 2011-07-20 03:07:22 <fabianhjr> Weren't they in Alaska eating the bears?
337 2011-07-20 03:08:04 <jgarzik> in Alaska, the mosquitos are big enough to eat the bears
338 2011-07-20 03:08:34 <IO-> fuck everything about mosquitos
339 2011-07-20 03:10:04 <denisx> when I start pushpoold with valgrind it crashes when it gets a usr1 or hup signal
340 2011-07-20 03:10:19 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
341 2011-07-20 03:10:21 <gribble> 137129
342 2011-07-20 03:14:43 <AlonzoTG> Yeah, I lost a week from my Bitcoin project trying to do that linux module problem. =(
343 2011-07-20 03:14:47 <AlonzoTG> now I'm down to $73
344 2011-07-20 03:14:50 <AlonzoTG> =(
345 2011-07-20 03:15:00 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: should have asked me for help :)
346 2011-07-20 03:15:28 abishai has joined
347 2011-07-20 03:15:37 <AlonzoTG> One of the problems seemed to require hooking the Exec system call, I could have done that in DOS, but not linux.
348 2011-07-20 03:15:38 <AlonzoTG> =\
349 2011-07-20 03:16:19 <jgarzik> AlonzoTG: ah, you were being asked to -hack- Linux kernel for evil purposes
350 2011-07-20 03:16:32 * jgarzik understands
351 2011-07-20 03:16:49 leroux has left ("Leaving")
352 2011-07-20 03:17:28 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
353 2011-07-20 03:18:17 <jrmithdobbs> AlonzoTG: that doesn't require a module at all though?!
354 2011-07-20 03:18:24 <jrmithdobbs> just ld trickery
355 2011-07-20 03:18:29 <jrmithdobbs> kids these days
356 2011-07-20 03:20:19 br00t has joined
357 2011-07-20 03:20:59 freewil is now known as freewil`away
358 2011-07-20 03:21:25 <upb> hmmmm, is 0 valid in the middle of a b58 string ?
359 2011-07-20 03:21:52 <Joric> upb, this is password to somewhere, there's no hidden message
360 2011-07-20 03:21:57 <upb> oh
361 2011-07-20 03:22:02 <upb> damn tricks :P
362 2011-07-20 03:22:38 <upb> it probably has to be xored with the key that he stick to his front door :D
363 2011-07-20 03:23:13 <Joric> upb, go private
364 2011-07-20 03:25:07 <AlonzoTG> I hate LD.
365 2011-07-20 03:25:20 <AlonzoTG> It was entirely undocumented until someone wrote a book about it (which I bought).
366 2011-07-20 03:25:23 <AlonzoTG> =(
367 2011-07-20 03:26:04 <jrmithdobbs> not entirely
368 2011-07-20 03:26:22 <AlonzoTG> Well, it wasn't documented in any place that Google knew about.
369 2011-07-20 03:26:50 jimon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
370 2011-07-20 03:29:01 <AlonzoTG> Anyway,
371 2011-07-20 03:29:56 wirehead has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
372 2011-07-20 03:30:52 <AlonzoTG> my current strategy for my bitcoin implementation is to implement little pieces here and there.
373 2011-07-20 03:32:09 <AlonzoTG> I wanted to write the entire protocol layer, but it depends on how it will interact with the wallet....
374 2011-07-20 03:32:28 jimon has joined
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377 2011-07-20 03:32:58 Raycaster has left ()
378 2011-07-20 03:34:51 <upb> LD_* is hardly undocumented
379 2011-07-20 03:35:14 <AlonzoTG> Now it might be,
380 2011-07-20 03:35:17 <upb> but you cant really hook the system call with it anyway
381 2011-07-20 03:35:20 <AlonzoTG> but only because Levine wrote Linkers and Loaders
382 2011-07-20 03:36:16 <cuddlefish> AlonzoTG: i love that game
383 2011-07-20 03:37:06 rethaw has joined
384 2011-07-20 03:37:22 <jrmithdobbs> AlonzoTG: nah most of the major LD_ vars were documented before that
385 2011-07-20 03:37:34 <jrmithdobbs> maybe not *well*
386 2011-07-20 03:37:46 pimpinganiteasy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
387 2011-07-20 03:37:49 <jrmithdobbs> but saying it wasn't at all isn't really true
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410 2011-07-20 04:30:37 <sacarlson> with cpuminer I turned on all the --debug and --debug-protocol and all seems to be working as I would suspect it should
411 2011-07-20 04:30:54 Zeiris has left ("Leaving")
412 2011-07-20 04:31:44 <sacarlson> so I'll try the cgminer to see if I can get any results. it's more likely I have a bug in MultiCoin with getwork or my lack of knowing how to config stuf
413 2011-07-20 04:31:49 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
414 2011-07-20 04:32:35 <doublec> sacarlson: what problem are you seeing/
415 2011-07-20 04:32:56 <sacarlson> doublec: just the lack of getting any created blocks from cpuminer
416 2011-07-20 04:33:17 <doublec> sacarlson: with merged mining? Or normal mining?
417 2011-07-20 04:33:30 <sacarlson> doublec: normal mining
418 2011-07-20 04:33:39 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
419 2011-07-20 04:33:54 <sacarlson> doublec: with weeds net "difficulty" : 0.06249911, I should see at more than zero blocks in 30 minits
420 2011-07-20 04:34:29 <doublec> sacarlson: aren't the miners hard coded to submit difficulty 1 or greater only?
421 2011-07-20 04:34:50 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
422 2011-07-20 04:34:58 <sacarlson> doublec: yes maybe so but they self adjust depending on what power you put on them
423 2011-07-20 04:35:19 <sacarlson> I've always only provided 300kh/sec on the weeds net
424 2011-07-20 04:35:40 <sacarlson> to acheave about 1 block every 10 minits or so
425 2011-07-20 04:36:54 copumpkin is now known as skewness
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431 2011-07-20 04:41:03 <sacarlson> doublec: the plan is to use the weeds net as the parent in the testing of a proto chain using merge mining
432 2011-07-20 04:41:20 <doublec> ok
433 2011-07-20 04:42:09 Joric has joined
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441 2011-07-20 04:51:58 <luke-jr> jgarzik: yt?
442 2011-07-20 04:54:17 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
443 2011-07-20 04:54:48 <CIA-103> bitcoin: various noncerange * r629eb1..ebbce2 pushpool-personal/ (12 files): (18 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3tu6v6g
444 2011-07-20 04:55:26 <luke-jr> jgarzik: could you comment on? http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/pushpool/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/629eb1ff9634dea2a6c7d2601d4661c3acf849ce
445 2011-07-20 04:59:35 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
446 2011-07-20 05:00:37 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: jwsample@gmail.com * r153 /branches/keystore/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ (23 files): More of the KeyStore interface for comment. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r153/
447 2011-07-20 05:00:37 skewness is now known as variants
448 2011-07-20 05:00:42 <jgarzik> luke-jr: a quick scan does not reveal obvious bugs. but it is not yet convincing that it's a win...
449 2011-07-20 05:02:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: no?
450 2011-07-20 05:02:47 <luke-jr> IMO putting all the CPU miners on a single work is win :P
451 2011-07-20 05:03:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: and cpu miners actually implement this? measurements taken during your field test?
452 2011-07-20 05:03:34 <luke-jr> jgarzik: not yet :P
453 2011-07-20 05:03:42 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
454 2011-07-20 05:03:51 <luke-jr> but I have 6 GH/s worth of CPU miners under one address aloneâ¦
455 2011-07-20 05:04:02 <luke-jr> each work can easily do 3-4 GH/s
456 2011-07-20 05:04:10 <jgarzik> luke-jr: the motivation is to reduce total 'getwork' calls to upstream bitcoind, I presume?
457 2011-07-20 05:04:16 <luke-jr> yes
458 2011-07-20 05:04:41 <jgarzik> luke-jr: well, no objections to merging... once this becomes a widely used feature
459 2011-07-20 05:04:57 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: jwsample@gmail.com * r154 /branches/keystore/ (17 files in 6 dirs): Tests and Lib for KeyStore http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r154/
460 2011-07-20 05:05:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: in general upstreams should avoid stuff that ultimately remains site-specific, and does not get widely adopted. contra, widely adopted stuff should absolutely be upstreamed.
461 2011-07-20 05:05:52 hahuang65 has joined
462 2011-07-20 05:05:54 <jgarzik> so.... who's python client is the furthest along?
463 2011-07-20 05:05:56 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit's?
464 2011-07-20 05:06:07 <luke-jr> there's multiple in active development?
465 2011-07-20 05:06:28 huk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
466 2011-07-20 05:06:39 variants is now known as copumpkin
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473 2011-07-20 05:12:50 <jgarzik> luke-jr: seems like there was at least one other, besides phantomcircuit's. forrestv did something related to p2pool that might be client-ish, and maybe one other incomplete effort as well.
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478 2011-07-20 05:24:52 <sacarlson> oh wow it seems the cpuminer finaly mined something. 1 hour to create one block in the weeds net. why would this cpuminer be so much slower then the built in bitcoind miner?
479 2011-07-20 05:25:48 <gmaxwell> What cpuminer?
480 2011-07-20 05:26:11 hahuang65 has quit ()
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483 2011-07-20 05:27:23 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: cpuminer from git://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer.git and compiled commitish 602e31b96c9b94ed8e4acaa010622cb1aad2bd5e
484 2011-07-20 05:28:08 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I'll try the other cpuminer cgminer and see if I can get slightly better performance
485 2011-07-20 05:28:21 sabalaba has joined
486 2011-07-20 05:28:48 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
487 2011-07-20 05:30:29 <sacarlson> I'm going to give this one a try https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer
488 2011-07-20 05:31:33 <rethaw> i'm using it right now
489 2011-07-20 05:31:34 sabalaba has quit (Read error: No route to host)
490 2011-07-20 05:31:52 <rethaw> not for cpu mining though
491 2011-07-20 05:32:40 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: What engine are you using? It matters a lot.
492 2011-07-20 05:32:54 <gmaxwell> I think only the 4way and sse2_64 are fast enough to be worth using.
493 2011-07-20 05:33:31 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: remind you I only have a cpu no gpu, how are these settings changed?
494 2011-07-20 05:34:07 <sacarlson> and my cpu is some amd dual core that I plan to only provide a single core if that option is posible
495 2011-07-20 05:34:46 freakazoid has joined
496 2011-07-20 05:34:53 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: are these changes something done at compile time?
497 2011-07-20 05:34:55 <gmaxwell> it's a command line option or a flag in the config file.
498 2011-07-20 05:35:06 <gmaxwell> Though you have to have yasm installed when you compile for it to be there.
499 2011-07-20 05:35:17 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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502 2011-07-20 05:35:59 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ok I found it in help with 4way tcatm's 4-way SSE2 implementation
503 2011-07-20 05:36:18 Zeiris has joined
504 2011-07-20 05:36:21 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: so before I try move on then I'll try that setting
505 2011-07-20 05:37:21 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: ok started [2011-07-20 12:33:24] 2 miner threads started, using SHA256 '4way' algorithm.
506 2011-07-20 05:39:45 <doublec> sacarlson: it should show the hash rate too so you can compare the speed
507 2011-07-20 05:40:22 RazielZ has joined
508 2011-07-20 05:40:33 <sacarlson> doublec: it doen't look much better [2011-07-20 12:36:36] thread 0: 2709088 hashes, 426.59 khash/sec
509 2011-07-20 05:41:01 <sacarlson> on each core so about over 800khash/sec
510 2011-07-20 05:41:11 <doublec> that's pretty low
511 2011-07-20 05:41:15 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
512 2011-07-20 05:41:21 <doublec> each core on my laptop gets about 1000khash/s
513 2011-07-20 05:41:40 <sacarlson> doublec: that's more than needed for weeds net that normaly runs on 300kh/sec single core with results ever 10 -20 minits
514 2011-07-20 05:42:25 <sacarlson> doublec: old slow computers, I'm not a rich guy
515 2011-07-20 05:43:49 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r119438a32847 poclbm-personal/Transport.py: Merge branch 'bugfix_difficulty_error' into combo http://tinyurl.com/3gmvcqb
516 2011-07-20 05:44:06 again is now known as tower
517 2011-07-20 05:45:54 <IO-> It's not just you! http://tradehill.com looks down from here.
518 2011-07-20 05:45:54 <IO-> Check another site?
519 2011-07-20 05:45:55 MetaV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
520 2011-07-20 05:45:56 <IO-> haha
521 2011-07-20 05:45:57 huk has joined
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526 2011-07-20 06:02:16 <sacarlson> so this cpuminer is slow maybe due to getting wrong target from getwork? "target" : "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffff0f000000"
527 2011-07-20 06:03:49 <jgarzik> sacarlson: all CPU miners are slow :)
528 2011-07-20 06:04:42 <sacarlson> jgarzik: ya but on a magnatude of 6 times slower then the build in bitcoind cpu miner?
529 2011-07-20 06:04:46 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
530 2011-07-20 06:05:15 <jgarzik> sacarlson: seems unlikely
531 2011-07-20 06:05:26 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: perhaps you just got unlucky?
532 2011-07-20 06:05:27 <sacarlson> jgarzik: yes I think it's almost imposible
533 2011-07-20 06:05:28 <jgarzik> sacarlson: probably something like built-in miners uses multiple threads by default
534 2011-07-20 06:05:38 <jgarzik> sacarlson: and you're just measuring one thread, in cpuminer
535 2011-07-20 06:06:17 <sacarlson> jgarzik: well I'm still seeing 2 times as many hashes per secound and yet less blocks created
536 2011-07-20 06:06:34 <sacarlson> so it must be working on the wrong problem
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540 2011-07-20 06:07:45 <sacarlson> it should be working on block.nBits = 0x1d07fff8;
541 2011-07-20 06:07:45 <jgarzik> sacarlson: well all modern miners check for at least H==0
542 2011-07-20 06:08:04 <jgarzik> sacarlson: so, lower difficulties won't speed up external miners
543 2011-07-20 06:08:11 <AlonzoTG> om
544 2011-07-20 06:08:17 <AlonzoTG> unix sucks nuts.
545 2011-07-20 06:08:22 magn3ts has joined
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547 2011-07-20 06:08:52 <sacarlson> jgarzik: lower difficulties won't speed up external miners? why not?
548 2011-07-20 06:08:58 <AlonzoTG> Every feature in it assumes that 1 process == 1 thread.
549 2011-07-20 06:09:08 <AlonzoTG> =(
550 2011-07-20 06:09:30 <AlonzoTG> The only way to make that work is to launch 10^9 processes.
551 2011-07-20 06:09:43 <AlonzoTG> Which is the solution the underlying operating system all but forces you to adopt.
552 2011-07-20 06:09:49 <AlonzoTG> =(
553 2011-07-20 06:09:51 <Ycros> 10^9 threads sounds like a horrible idea as well
554 2011-07-20 06:09:54 <AlonzoTG> Does anybody notice? no.
555 2011-07-20 06:10:25 <AlonzoTG> I've got a lot more research to do.
556 2011-07-20 06:10:34 <AlonzoTG> and I think I'm going to have to do some serious engineering,
557 2011-07-20 06:10:41 <jgarzik> sacarlson: I just told you
558 2011-07-20 06:10:47 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> sacarlson: well all modern miners check for at least H==0
559 2011-07-20 06:10:53 <knotwork> is the SVN trunk on sourceforge out of date or something?
560 2011-07-20 06:10:58 <AlonzoTG> a loose-leaf sheet of sketched notes isn't going to be enough to devel a daemon.
561 2011-07-20 06:11:13 <knotwork> I get the impression using trunk I have not got some of the things the latest version supposedly has?
562 2011-07-20 06:11:13 <jgarzik> knotwork: bitcoin SVN is not used anymore
563 2011-07-20 06:11:14 <Ycros> AlonzoTG: if you need that many threads you're doing it wrong
564 2011-07-20 06:11:26 <AlonzoTG> Yeah, I'm just using hyperbolie.
565 2011-07-20 06:11:28 <knotwork> oh I thought it was for released
566 2011-07-20 06:11:55 <jgarzik> knotwork: git is current. SVN is for people born before 1965 or so.
567 2011-07-20 06:12:22 <knotwork> ok. I thought I read somewhere git as development and when released it went to svn
568 2011-07-20 06:12:35 <AlonzoTG> Why is everyone going crazy over git? SVN has been totally roxors ever since I started using it.
569 2011-07-20 06:12:56 <sacarlson> jgarzik: so I'll have to patch a miner to check for less than H==0 ?
570 2011-07-20 06:14:21 <jgarzik> sacarlson: yes, you have to patch the core proof-of-work algorithm
571 2011-07-20 06:14:35 <jgarzik> sacarlson: all PoW algorithms in external miners simply check for H==0 as a shortcut
572 2011-07-20 06:14:53 <jgarzik> sacarlson: it is a key optimization
573 2011-07-20 06:14:59 * jgarzik -> poof
574 2011-07-20 06:16:04 <sacarlson> jgarzik: well if I could just patch it with the original bitcoind I would get 600% improvment so is any of those already build or will I have to create one?
575 2011-07-20 06:16:21 <knotwork> I already have a git locally of bitcoin, intro to github said how to push any changes I make but not how to update my local copy
576 2011-07-20 06:16:33 <knotwork> how do I tell it to get up to date with the original?
577 2011-07-20 06:19:43 <forrestv> sacarlson, i have a patch for cpu-miner that lets it work at lower difficulties
578 2011-07-20 06:19:58 <sacarlson> forrestv: cool my man
579 2011-07-20 06:20:26 <sacarlson> forrestv: you have the url to git?
580 2011-07-20 06:20:54 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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583 2011-07-20 06:24:13 <sacarlson> forrestv: ok maybe this one https://github.com/forrestv/cpuminer at any specific commit?
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586 2011-07-20 06:26:42 <forrestv> sacarlson, i just created that, i'm getting it in
587 2011-07-20 06:26:46 <forrestv> i just had it locally before
588 2011-07-20 06:26:59 <sacarlson> forrestv: ok very cool
589 2011-07-20 06:30:09 Adrieuxo has joined
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591 2011-07-20 06:35:17 <forrestv> sacarlson, okay, look again now
592 2011-07-20 06:35:51 E-sense has joined
593 2011-07-20 06:36:01 <sacarlson> forrestv: ok will do, any specific commit? or master, any algo?
594 2011-07-20 06:36:09 <forrestv> sacarlson, master, c algo
595 2011-07-20 06:36:17 <sacarlson> ok
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604 2011-07-20 06:48:02 <sacarlson> forrestv: it seemed to build ok but when I run ./minerd --url http://127.0.0.1:38332/ --userpass yourusername:yourpassword I get a segmentation fault error at run time
605 2011-07-20 06:48:19 <sacarlson> forrestv: dependancy I forget?
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609 2011-07-20 06:49:36 <sacarlson> forrestv: same error with ./minerd --url http://127.0.0.1:38332/ --userpass yourusername:yourpassword --a 4way so I assume it's not your modified c algo
610 2011-07-20 06:49:54 Eremes has joined
611 2011-07-20 06:50:56 <forrestv> sacarlson, yeah ... i made userpass optional and evidently broke something
612 2011-07-20 06:51:21 <sacarlson> forrestv: ok I'll just build this commit then 1346c705876bffdb4752cdd21f296a1bb6e66eb7
613 2011-07-20 06:51:29 <sacarlson> forrestv: before your password changes
614 2011-07-20 06:52:09 <forrestv> sacarlson, or you can git pull; i fixed it
615 2011-07-20 06:52:47 <sacarlson> ok I'll try fetch your new one then
616 2011-07-20 06:53:46 <sacarlson> I'll try this one f7617f3f7c0eb348e1bf2af21ed5d965f05df24d
617 2011-07-20 06:53:58 again has joined
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619 2011-07-20 06:55:20 <sacarlson> forrestv: ok that seems to have fixed it, it's now running [2011-07-20 13:51:15] Binding thread 0 to cpu 0
620 2011-07-20 06:55:20 <sacarlson> H <= 15
621 2011-07-20 06:56:09 <sacarlson> wow and already just got my first block created from it
622 2011-07-20 06:56:28 <sacarlson> now I might have to slow it down
623 2011-07-20 06:57:13 <sacarlson> [2011-07-20 13:52:08] PROOF OF WORK RESULT: true (yay!!!)
624 2011-07-20 06:57:34 koolfy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
625 2011-07-20 06:58:25 <sacarlson> ok just got the secound block, how to I at least get it to run on only one cpu instead of 2?
626 2011-07-20 06:58:56 koolfy has joined
627 2011-07-20 07:02:23 <knotwork> is there a way to make by fork of bitcoin on github update itself to match current bitcoin?
628 2011-07-20 07:02:38 <knotwork> or simply to make my at home on disk copy update itself to match actual bitcoin?
629 2011-07-20 07:02:52 <knotwork> github doesnt seem to have any update type button or anything similar
630 2011-07-20 07:03:17 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
631 2011-07-20 07:03:28 <knotwork> does one instead just delete the fork and make a new one to get latest?
632 2011-07-20 07:03:58 <forrestv> sacarlson, -t 1
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636 2011-07-20 07:04:31 <sacarlson> forrestv: ya I just figured that out even though it says it default to 1 it seems not
637 2011-07-20 07:04:35 <forrestv> knotwork, see http://help.github.com/fork-a-repo/
638 2011-07-20 07:06:23 <sacarlson> forrestv: dam even with -t 1 I just got another block, so maybe I'll also add priority to that thread to slow it down more
639 2011-07-20 07:06:49 <knotwork> if at home I do git fetch upstream then git merge upstream/master will that make my fork on github match the actual thinig its a fork of?
640 2011-07-20 07:07:46 AStove has joined
641 2011-07-20 07:07:50 <doublec> sacarlson: you're the first person I've seen complain about finding blocks too fast!
642 2011-07-20 07:08:41 <sacarlson> doublec: well when I put the task back to the slow computer that normaly runs the minner it will find it too hard
643 2011-07-20 07:08:47 hvala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
644 2011-07-20 07:09:10 <forrestv> knotwork, you have to push to github to do that
645 2011-07-20 07:09:31 <sacarlson> doublec: then I'll have the same problem people complain about with -testnet and not having minners able to mine it
646 2011-07-20 07:09:40 hvala has joined
647 2011-07-20 07:09:41 <knotwork> so I am basically skipping my fork and going direct to the original?
648 2011-07-20 07:09:57 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
649 2011-07-20 07:10:06 <knotwork> is there a way to walk over any changs at my end? it thinks I changed something and says commit it or stash it
650 2011-07-20 07:10:18 <forrestv> knotwork, no, it will merge upstream changes
651 2011-07-20 07:10:22 <knotwork> I have no idea what it thinks I changed can i just walk over local ocpy with original?
652 2011-07-20 07:10:34 <forrestv> stash it in case it's important
653 2011-07-20 07:10:49 <knotwork> like "git stash"
654 2011-07-20 07:11:19 <sacarlson> knotwork: you really should learn git, like at #git or google git
655 2011-07-20 07:11:59 <knotwork> probably easier to just trash this git clone and download .tar.gz of actual latest source
656 2011-07-20 07:12:57 <sacarlson> knotwork: the tar I assume will just be the master branch there are also sometimes things released above that
657 2011-07-20 07:13:28 <knotwork> unelss there is some reasonable chance git can somehow reconcile all the changes since old version I made my variants from
658 2011-07-20 07:13:38 <knotwork> so as to update my variants to new code
659 2011-07-20 07:15:09 <knotwork> git's download button doesnt give you the latest version?
660 2011-07-20 07:15:38 Fireball has joined
661 2011-07-20 07:15:48 <knotwork> I always had impression it did since unlike sourceforge it has no separate option to make a tarball of current version
662 2011-07-20 07:16:39 again has joined
663 2011-07-20 07:17:08 <knotwork> is there no longer any "releases" distinct from jsut getting latest bugs someone just put in moments ago?
664 2011-07-20 07:17:13 <sacarlson> knotwork: git fetch --all brings in all remote updates but you also have to checkout the version you want to be working on and to view the files in each commit. as I said learn git #git and google git
665 2011-07-20 07:19:03 <knotwork> ok but normal person trying to grab latest official stable version to compile, how is that done?
666 2011-07-20 07:21:04 again has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
667 2011-07-20 07:21:31 <knotwork> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin seems to now be version 0.3.25 is that ltest stable version? or development version possibly with latest bugs?
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675 2011-07-20 07:28:55 <jgarzik> knotwork: development version. 0.3.25 is not yet released.
676 2011-07-20 07:29:31 <knotwork> ok so 0.3.24rc3 is the one I probably want? latest release-candidate?
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686 2011-07-20 07:39:01 <jgarzik> knotwork: 0.3.24 has been released, so 0.3.24 is more recent and stable than 0.3.24rc3
687 2011-07-20 07:40:05 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
688 2011-07-20 07:40:05 <knotwork> ahh thanks
689 2011-07-20 07:40:16 again has joined
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692 2011-07-20 07:42:37 <diki> i ripped some code out of cgminer to see how exactly the nbits are stored(which is the compressed version of the current target)
693 2011-07-20 07:42:37 wardearia has joined
694 2011-07-20 07:42:39 <diki> http://pastebin.com/z5xx4jz5
695 2011-07-20 07:42:45 <diki> however, it prints out 48....
696 2011-07-20 07:42:55 <diki> i am printing with %d, cause it crashes with %s
697 2011-07-20 07:44:50 Beccara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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702 2011-07-20 07:47:30 <denisx> diki: nbits is not a string simply
703 2011-07-20 07:47:37 Akinava has joined
704 2011-07-20 07:49:37 <diki> the code is 1:1 with the original
705 2011-07-20 07:49:49 <diki> but the program outputs the nbits correctly
706 2011-07-20 07:50:03 <diki> s/the program/the mine
707 2011-07-20 07:50:05 <diki> the miner
708 2011-07-20 07:50:18 <diki> however, that little code i ripped, doesnt'
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714 2011-07-20 08:04:24 <AndyBr> morning
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729 2011-07-20 08:15:16 <diki> well, seems i will be modding a lot to achieve my desirec effect
730 2011-07-20 08:15:27 <diki> you know...i hate these typos i make
731 2011-07-20 08:15:37 TD has joined
732 2011-07-20 08:16:02 <abishai> I blame the lack of sleep whenever it happens
733 2011-07-20 08:16:12 <diki> oh i slept
734 2011-07-20 08:16:23 <diki> it's just that i dont look at the kb when typing
735 2011-07-20 08:16:56 <abishai> looking at hot chicks ?
736 2011-07-20 08:17:28 TD has quit (Client Quit)
737 2011-07-20 08:17:44 <abishai> I have that problem when driving
738 2011-07-20 08:19:24 <abishai> dont drive very often anymore, I use my flying saucer, built out of lego, funded entirely by btc
739 2011-07-20 08:20:48 <abishai> I havent slept much, if its not obvious already
740 2011-07-20 08:21:42 <diki> it's not
741 2011-07-20 08:34:21 <diki> wow...i found a flaw in the code of cgminer
742 2011-07-20 08:34:25 <diki> pretty stupid one at that
743 2011-07-20 08:34:54 Jefff has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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745 2011-07-20 08:35:19 <abishai> hehe
746 2011-07-20 08:37:14 <Joric> buffer overflow?
747 2011-07-20 08:37:25 <diki> nah
748 2011-07-20 08:37:42 <diki> it doesnt support target rewrites
749 2011-07-20 08:37:52 <diki> meaning that when you mine for a pool, you mine with full difficulty
750 2011-07-20 08:38:09 <diki> cause he gets the nbits from midstate and "data" from the getwork
751 2011-07-20 08:38:36 karnac has joined
752 2011-07-20 08:38:37 <diki> for proof, i put a print in the code where the nbits is, it printed the current diff
753 2011-07-20 08:38:41 <diki> but the bug is only with the gpu
754 2011-07-20 08:38:56 Beccara_ has joined
755 2011-07-20 08:41:02 <diki> and since the gpu miner thread does not check if the hash meets the difficulty, users didnt even know about this bug
756 2011-07-20 08:41:50 <diki> and i do recall people claiming they get less shares than usual with cgminer
757 2011-07-20 08:41:55 <diki> well, here's the problem
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764 2011-07-20 08:48:29 <diki> the gpu miner code will prolyl have to be rewritten a bit
765 2011-07-20 08:48:32 <diki> *prolly
766 2011-07-20 08:49:08 <mtrlt> wat?
767 2011-07-20 08:49:16 <diki> what?
768 2011-07-20 08:49:44 <mtrlt> so you say that the diff in the data given to the gpu has the current network diff instead of the share diff?
769 2011-07-20 08:49:48 <mtrlt> but that's how it's supposed to be :(
770 2011-07-20 08:49:49 <diki> yes
771 2011-07-20 08:49:55 <diki> erm...pools send diff 1
772 2011-07-20 08:50:09 <diki> the gpu miner code ignores that
773 2011-07-20 08:50:11 <mtrlt> well, they send the actual block header with the actual network diff value
774 2011-07-20 08:50:22 <diki> but they never get the diff 1 target
775 2011-07-20 08:50:25 <mtrlt> but alter the target, which is another field in the json reply
776 2011-07-20 08:50:58 <mtrlt> if the pool altered the diff in the actual block header, any work done would be invalid
777 2011-07-20 08:51:00 <diki> no matter where i look in the code, the gpu miner does not recieve the diff 1 target
778 2011-07-20 08:51:14 <diki> while the cpu miner code does get it from the rpc reply
779 2011-07-20 08:51:26 <diki> still, i am waiting for conman to confirm
780 2011-07-20 08:51:34 <mtrlt> duh
781 2011-07-20 08:51:40 <mtrlt> the opencl kernel just checks for H==0
782 2011-07-20 08:51:45 <mtrlt> the rest is checked in the CPU part
783 2011-07-20 08:52:51 <diki> but mining with full difficulty results in far less shares submitted
784 2011-07-20 08:52:54 <diki> from my experience
785 2011-07-20 08:53:08 <mtrlt> what do you mean
786 2011-07-20 08:53:18 <mtrlt> if the target is lower, then, duh obviously
787 2011-07-20 08:54:16 <diki> a lower target means more time till you find a block
788 2011-07-20 08:54:26 <diki> the maximum target as on the wiki page is basically diff 1
789 2011-07-20 08:54:35 <diki> the lowest...impossible to go there
790 2011-07-20 08:54:54 <mtrlt> obviously you still don't know anything so i'll stop bothering you ->
791 2011-07-20 08:55:15 <diki> read the wiki
792 2011-07-20 08:55:38 <diki> max target = 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffff00000000 = diff 1
793 2011-07-20 08:56:18 <diki> thus, the lowest target is a very high difficulty
794 2011-07-20 08:57:23 <diki> and furthermore, whatever i say, goes...meaning i am always correct
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799 2011-07-20 09:07:23 * diki needs new music
800 2011-07-20 09:07:34 <diki> some new BEP or just solo Will.i.am
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802 2011-07-20 09:13:29 <Joric> gmaxwell, are you still here?
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808 2011-07-20 09:36:00 <denisx> diki: max target is 0x00000000ffff0000â¦â¦â¦â¦.
809 2011-07-20 09:38:13 <diki> so what...endian difference
810 2011-07-20 09:38:25 <diki> i was lazy to byteswap it
811 2011-07-20 09:41:50 <diki> anyway, i've explored the code and i dont see anywhere(even in the cl kernel) where the diff 1 target might be used
812 2011-07-20 09:42:03 <diki> i can only assume, it's not
813 2011-07-20 09:42:38 <denisx> which code?
814 2011-07-20 09:42:48 <denisx> you can see it in the kernel
815 2011-07-20 09:42:50 <diki> cgminer
816 2011-07-20 09:43:02 <diki> i only saw nbits
817 2011-07-20 09:43:10 <diki> and they contained the current target
818 2011-07-20 09:43:15 <diki> which was used to compute the hash
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843 2011-07-20 10:55:06 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r155 /trunk/pom.xml: Update repo URLs. Patch from Gary Rowe. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r155/
844 2011-07-20 10:58:57 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r156 /wiki/UsingMaven.wiki: Added a little page about Maven. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r156/
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851 2011-07-20 11:12:37 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
852 2011-07-20 11:12:38 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":14.08,"low":13.601,"avg":13.844632139,"vwap":13.859974154,"vol":21478,"last":13.7849,"buy":13.74066,"sell":13.7849}}
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855 2011-07-20 11:16:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, fyi the reason there are so many connections is that someone appears to be running a time shifting attack on the network
856 2011-07-20 11:16:51 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: really? someone is actually doing that?
857 2011-07-20 11:17:23 <phantomcircuit> yeah nearly half of the connections to the node i started last night are sending timestamps with the maximum offset
858 2011-07-20 11:17:59 <BlueMatt> oh shit...
859 2011-07-20 11:18:03 <moa7> what's the purpose of that?
860 2011-07-20 11:18:09 <BlueMatt> well then we should probably get a fix in the works now
861 2011-07-20 11:20:12 <diki> then what are you waiting for?
862 2011-07-20 11:20:22 <BlueMatt> I dont know how to fix it...
863 2011-07-20 11:20:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: tcatm you guys?
864 2011-07-20 11:20:43 <BlueMatt> I mean you could give more preference to local time
865 2011-07-20 11:20:46 <upb> lock the time inthe source!
866 2011-07-20 11:20:56 <upb> if (block == 0x123123123) time = 123123123;
867 2011-07-20 11:21:04 <BlueMatt> and maybe implement local ntp...but thats just yet another centralized server
868 2011-07-20 11:21:07 <AndyBr> time shift attack? i'm intrigued
869 2011-07-20 11:21:42 <moa7> someone from the future has come back to kill bitcoin before it takes over the world.
870 2011-07-20 11:22:18 <BlueMatt> lol
871 2011-07-20 11:22:47 <denisx> moa7: no, then he travel to 2009 and would start mining and buying cards already...
872 2011-07-20 11:22:52 liltoe has quit (Quit: wee wee wee)
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874 2011-07-20 11:23:14 <moa7> he's only coming from maximum offset in the future
875 2011-07-20 11:23:22 <AndyBr> how does this time attack work and what is the purpose?
876 2011-07-20 11:23:35 <moa7> what is that 60 seconds?
877 2011-07-20 11:23:36 <WakiMiko> satoshi is actually from the future. i invented bitcoin in 2020 and satoshi ripped me off by traveling to the past
878 2011-07-20 11:23:51 shLONG has quit (Client Quit)
879 2011-07-20 11:24:25 <xelister> WakiMiko sleep with his mother
880 2011-07-20 11:25:24 <phantomcircuit> moa7, 70 minutes
881 2011-07-20 11:25:55 <moa7> daylight savings change anywhere?
882 2011-07-20 11:26:05 <moa7> nup.
883 2011-07-20 11:26:15 <phantomcircuit> it's UTC
884 2011-07-20 11:26:31 <moa7> yeah ... just bsing
885 2011-07-20 11:26:39 <moa7> how many nodes has he got?
886 2011-07-20 11:27:05 <moa7> any way of knowing?
887 2011-07-20 11:27:37 <phantomcircuit> you could setup a bunch of nodes and correlate the ones with max offset times
888 2011-07-20 11:30:23 <BlueMatt> so...seriously, what do people suggest we do to solve time shifting?
889 2011-07-20 11:30:29 <BlueMatt> I mean its not a huge attack...
890 2011-07-20 11:30:34 <moa7> BlueMatt: thnx for the ramdisk tip ... works good and gives good options for wallet encryption/decryption etc.
891 2011-07-20 11:30:38 <BlueMatt> just a temporary block issue...
892 2011-07-20 11:30:47 <BlueMatt> moa7: yep, just remember to backup ;)
893 2011-07-20 11:31:09 <denisx> for that I think I need more information of the attack
894 2011-07-20 11:31:11 <moa7> right ... keep your wits about you when living in ram
895 2011-07-20 11:32:24 <BlueMatt> wheres that blog post about the attack?
896 2011-07-20 11:33:00 prof7bit has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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901 2011-07-20 11:37:53 <moa7> what else might it be called? can't seem to find it using +"time shift attack" or +"time shift" +attack
902 2011-07-20 11:38:31 Burgundy has quit ()
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904 2011-07-20 11:41:24 <upb> ah, found it.
905 2011-07-20 11:42:39 <upb> "Hello, we would hereby like to announce that we are running a time-shifting DoS attack on the Bitcoin network. Developers be advised and take countermeasures."
906 2011-07-20 11:42:54 <WakiMiko> link?
907 2011-07-20 11:44:00 <BlueMatt> its not much of an attack, I mean all you can do is get blocks rejected temporarily
908 2011-07-20 11:44:09 <BlueMatt> they will be accepted in the future
909 2011-07-20 11:44:12 <AndyBr> is there a way to rename the default "" account using commandline?
910 2011-07-20 11:44:14 <BlueMatt> I mean its a problem, but its not a huge one
911 2011-07-20 11:44:19 <AndyBr> or to send from it
912 2011-07-20 11:44:25 <prof7bit> has anybody of you counted the total number of *unspent* outputs currently existing?
913 2011-07-20 11:45:09 * prof7bit planning the database scheme
914 2011-07-20 11:46:08 <WakiMiko> upb: can you please provide a link?
915 2011-07-20 11:48:21 <moa7> AndyBr: all commandline options are listed on wiki page ... https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
916 2011-07-20 11:49:11 <moa7> and rpc calls are given there too ... https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
917 2011-07-20 11:51:07 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, if you are really clever you can cause a double spend to go through if someone allows 1 confirmation
918 2011-07-20 11:51:22 <phantomcircuit> but it's hard to pull off and they dont appear to be successfully doing so
919 2011-07-20 11:51:55 <b4epoche_> this Mpower again?
920 2011-07-20 11:51:58 <prof7bit> If the official client requests a block from me and I sent him a properly pruned block containing only unspent tx, will he accept it and be able to work with it?
921 2011-07-20 11:52:40 <phantomcircuit> prof7bit, nope
922 2011-07-20 11:52:48 <tcatm> prof7bit: just the number of unspent outputs?
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926 2011-07-20 11:53:54 <prof7bit> tcatm: yes. if i can't serve block to other clients then i'm going to store only block headers and tx outputs and throw away everything else after checking it.
927 2011-07-20 11:54:27 <prof7bit> and delete outputs in my db once they are spent
928 2011-07-20 11:55:25 noot has joined
929 2011-07-20 11:56:01 <AndyBr> what's required to build bitcoin on windows? would like to contribute on gui
930 2011-07-20 11:56:32 <prof7bit> if others would have accepted pruned blocks that i might have stored the merkles and the complete tx but if this does not work anyways then the only thing I really need is only a list of tx outputs, nothing more. and a chain of block headers to verify incoming new blocks.
931 2011-07-20 11:56:51 <tcatm> AndyBr: linux :)
932 2011-07-20 11:57:18 noot has left ()
933 2011-07-20 11:59:05 <AndyBr> tcatm: o_O
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935 2011-07-20 12:00:16 <prof7bit> most outputs are around 34 bytes
936 2011-07-20 12:00:32 <lfm> I thot some people were building it with VC now
937 2011-07-20 12:00:46 <tcatm> prof7bit: I'm currently building a list of transactions to run the query on
938 2011-07-20 12:00:54 <prof7bit> so all i have to store for a standard tx (1 in 2 out) is 68 bytes
939 2011-07-20 12:01:54 <lfm> prof7bit you need the hash of the txn too right?
940 2011-07-20 12:02:07 <AndyBr> who wrote the mirc script to verify for otc?
941 2011-07-20 12:02:12 <AndyBr> i need it =)
942 2011-07-20 12:02:20 <prof7bit> I'm not sure.
943 2011-07-20 12:02:26 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: is this the blog article you mentioned? http://culubas.blogspot.com/2011/05/timejacking-bitcoin_802.html
944 2011-07-20 12:02:36 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yea, you can theoretically double-spend, but the real problem is the possibility for duplicated work - if blocks are being rejected prematurely, miners might duplicate each other's work, which is not good
945 2011-07-20 12:02:47 <lfm> that is how you refer to outputs in a input is the hash of the input txn and the output number
946 2011-07-20 12:02:47 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: that looks like it
947 2011-07-20 12:02:56 <prof7bit> o, yes, i need the hash and the index for creating the outpoint structure
948 2011-07-20 12:03:34 <prof7bit> ok, then i need a slightly more complicated model.
949 2011-07-20 12:04:56 <lfm> the hash is 32 bytes. It'd be cheaper to just store the hash than a large list of inputs
950 2011-07-20 12:05:23 <prof7bit> outputs
951 2011-07-20 12:05:57 <lfm> inputs and outputs. you still need each separate output amount is all
952 2011-07-20 12:07:04 <prof7bit> why do i need to store any input (after having somehow proven the tx was valid)?
953 2011-07-20 12:07:06 <lfm> and the address it is sent to
954 2011-07-20 12:07:29 <prof7bit> the address is derived from the output script
955 2011-07-20 12:07:46 <lfm> thats what I am saying you dont need the actuall inputs, just the hash of the full txn. I agree
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962 2011-07-20 12:10:20 <prof7bit> o, i misread you 4th last sentence. i read "and" instead of "than"
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964 2011-07-20 12:12:32 <prof7bit> i'm still not sure whether to use an existing database driver/library or roll my own pragmatic simple storage engine
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966 2011-07-20 12:12:58 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: the simplest solution I can think of is to drop the notion of network time but that would likely cause other problems. Maybe change the time shift limit from 70 minutes to 60 or 59 minutes?
967 2011-07-20 12:13:30 Folklore has joined
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969 2011-07-20 12:13:54 <lfm> prof7bit: im not sure how such nodes would effect the net since it is not able to serve up a complete txn history any more for new nodes. its a problem we have discussed here before.
970 2011-07-20 12:14:01 <BlueMatt> yea I think lower limit would be good, but Id also like to wait and get more opinions from gmaxwell or TD or sipa or... to make sure there arent more options
971 2011-07-20 12:14:14 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: but dropping the notion of network time could cause too many other problems
972 2011-07-20 12:14:15 <sipa> about? :p
973 2011-07-20 12:14:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: apparently people are doing time-shifting right now
974 2011-07-20 12:14:37 <sipa> hmm
975 2011-07-20 12:14:38 <BlueMatt> thats why connection slots like to fill up so much right now
976 2011-07-20 12:15:04 <sipa> how so?
977 2011-07-20 12:15:10 <Eliel_> also, there's the option of ignoring network time from nodes that obviously aren't participating fully.
978 2011-07-20 12:15:27 <BlueMatt> well to do time shifting you want as large a percent of a given node's connection slot as possible
979 2011-07-20 12:15:40 <BlueMatt> so people are filling them as much as possible with evil connections which shift time
980 2011-07-20 12:15:43 <lfm> I think Satoshi made the time window that large so that people who had trouble with daylight saving time could still run. Not sure if its actually a good idea tho.
981 2011-07-20 12:15:52 <sipa> oh i see
982 2011-07-20 12:16:05 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: thats not really much of an option
983 2011-07-20 12:16:10 <sipa> lfm: seemd likely
984 2011-07-20 12:17:00 <BlueMatt> lfm: yep, though I agree that Im not sure about its actual useage
985 2011-07-20 12:18:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: and what is the proposed solution?
986 2011-07-20 12:18:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: drop the max allowed difference to something more like 45
987 2011-07-20 12:19:13 * b4epoche_ thinks daylight savings time rationale is not good
988 2011-07-20 12:19:23 <sipa> would that solve it?
989 2011-07-20 12:19:32 <sipa> 45 minutes still is a lot
990 2011-07-20 12:19:33 <lfm> even 10 or 20 minutes. internet time syncing is not really that hard no matter what your system Id say.
991 2011-07-20 12:19:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: that would theoretically make it a ton harder, you have to hit total 60min off
992 2011-07-20 12:20:04 <BlueMatt> though yea, that was very conservative, much, much lower is also perfectly reasonable
993 2011-07-20 12:20:17 <prof7bit> <lfm> prof7bit: im not sure how such nodes would effect the net <-- I have thought about this too, long and hard, but there is no other choice than to have a two level hierarchy of "supernodes" (the full client) and thin clients like bitcoinj (or my fpBitcoin) and I am targeting the time when this will be come the common network structure.
994 2011-07-20 12:20:23 <sipa> i must say i haven't thought much about this
995 2011-07-20 12:20:30 <BlueMatt> same
996 2011-07-20 12:20:36 <BlueMatt> thats why Im asking around, see if someone has
997 2011-07-20 12:20:47 <Eliel_> does bitcoin currently give a warning if the 70 minute limit is hit? If not, such a warning would be good to add in case the limit is dropped.
998 2011-07-20 12:21:13 <prof7bit> by this time the official client will support such thin clients and even help them to download already pre-pruned blocks
999 2011-07-20 12:21:13 <Eliel_> so the person running it has a chance to realize the node isn't really functional
1000 2011-07-20 12:21:25 <sipa> what are the exact rules now?
1001 2011-07-20 12:21:30 <prof7bit> in their own interest to save bandwidth
1002 2011-07-20 12:21:40 <BlueMatt> time > 70min diff, ignore that node's time
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1004 2011-07-20 12:21:43 <lfm> I just wonder how much window miners need for working on a getwork without updateing a timestamp. whats the slowest refresh rate they use?
1005 2011-07-20 12:21:44 <Eliel_> http://culubas.blogspot.com/2011/05/timejacking-bitcoin_802.html this blog article explains them
1006 2011-07-20 12:22:21 <prof7bit> currently i have to download the entire chain and throw away everything I don't need myself
1007 2011-07-20 12:22:34 <lfm> prof7bit: yup
1008 2011-07-20 12:23:09 <lfm> prof7bit: it does allow some extra error checking to go thru the whole history.
1009 2011-07-20 12:23:44 <sipa> the problem ials the lack of spv desktop client
1010 2011-07-20 12:24:00 <prof7bit> my client will not attempt to validate every transaction, it will trust the network
1011 2011-07-20 12:24:02 <sipa> most people don't need a full node at all
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1013 2011-07-20 12:24:30 <sipa> prof7bit: you're doing spv?
1014 2011-07-20 12:24:40 <lfm> spv?
1015 2011-07-20 12:24:48 <prof7bit> it will regard a transaction as valid if it is properly embedded in a block
1016 2011-07-20 12:24:57 <prof7bit> simplified as in the paper
1017 2011-07-20 12:25:01 <sipa> simplified payment verification
1018 2011-07-20 12:25:19 <sipa> as explained in the whitepaper, indeed
1019 2011-07-20 12:26:46 <prof7bit> and after having checked the merkle i will throw away the merkle and the tx inputs. and immediately delete each output from the db once it is spent.
1020 2011-07-20 12:27:14 <prof7bit> so i end up with only a block header and a list of outputs
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1022 2011-07-20 12:27:44 <lfm> I did some stats on the current block chain. there are 770326 txn which can be dropped completely out of a total of 1084955 txn
1023 2011-07-20 12:28:53 <lfm> I didnt look at separate outputs
1024 2011-07-20 12:29:06 <prof7bit> 314629
1025 2011-07-20 12:29:38 <prof7bit> 314629 unspent tx, now it would be interesting to know how many unspent outputs this actually are
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1031 2011-07-20 12:31:02 <lfm> I think there are 610791 separate outputs which are still unspent
1032 2011-07-20 12:31:23 <prof7bit> 9.6MB tx hash
1033 2011-07-20 12:31:28 <lfm> I remembered I wrote them in anpother place
1034 2011-07-20 12:31:47 <prof7bit> plus maybe 200k * 34 byte output
1035 2011-07-20 12:31:54 <prof7bit> another 9 MB
1036 2011-07-20 12:32:13 <prof7bit> so many outputs?
1037 2011-07-20 12:32:36 <prof7bit> ok my 200k was wrong, thinking error
1038 2011-07-20 12:32:46 <prof7bit> it is more than 1 per tx of course
1039 2011-07-20 12:33:12 <lfm> so amount is 8 bytes, coutp is 36 byte and address is 34 byte? total 78 bytes times 610791 ouputs?
1040 2011-07-20 12:33:47 <sipa> address 34 bytes?
1041 2011-07-20 12:34:14 <sipa> you need to look at scriptpubkey for that
1042 2011-07-20 12:34:38 <prof7bit> no, 314629 times 32byte hash + 610791 times 34 byte for the avarage output
1043 2011-07-20 12:34:52 <lfm> the 1CYG7y3fukVLdobqgUtbknwWKUZ5p1HVmV things. I guess you really only need the 20 byte hash160 instead
1044 2011-07-20 12:35:17 <prof7bit> Output 1:
1045 2011-07-20 12:35:18 <prof7bit> 40 4B 4C 00 00 00 00 00 - 0.05 BTC (5000000)
1046 2011-07-20 12:35:18 <prof7bit> 19 - pk_script is 25 bytes long
1047 2011-07-20 12:35:18 <prof7bit> 76 A9 14 1A A0 CD 1C BE A6 E7 45 8A 7A BA D5 12 - pk_script
1048 2011-07-20 12:35:18 <prof7bit> A9 D9 EA 1A FB 22 5E 88 AC
1049 2011-07-20 12:35:21 <lfm> so thats 64 bytes total?
1050 2011-07-20 12:35:59 <prof7bit> the above should be all that is needed for an output (along with the hash of the tx and the index number
1051 2011-07-20 12:36:29 <lfm> oh the index, ya, thats what another 2 bytes?
1052 2011-07-20 12:36:52 <prof7bit> varint, only 1 byte.
1053 2011-07-20 12:36:52 <lfm> you only need 20 out of the 25 byte script
1054 2011-07-20 12:37:09 <lfm> prof7bit: the index can be greater than 255
1055 2011-07-20 12:37:44 <prof7bit> then it will grow to 2 byte. i'm going to use my varint parser i have already written for this
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1057 2011-07-20 12:38:28 <sipa> lfm: no, you need the full script
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1059 2011-07-20 12:38:48 <sipa> there are non-standard transactions in the block chain
1060 2011-07-20 12:38:55 <lfm> can just save a hash160 of the key if it is a key script cant you?
1061 2011-07-20 12:39:19 <sipa> then you at least need one more byte to store that it is a send-to-hash160
1062 2011-07-20 12:40:22 <lfm> oh ok for those key scripts you need the whole key, ya, I got it now. bah!
1063 2011-07-20 12:40:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: btw, your worry about needing a Hash() for spending a send-to-pubkeys when verifying... that's already the case in cbitcoinaddress, as CKeyStore is completely indexed by addresses
1064 2011-07-20 12:42:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, well that was wrong anyway, a hash is needed network-wide so one end-user hash is not of concern
1065 2011-07-20 12:43:14 <moa7> pretty sure this time-jacking attack has been operational on namecoin since early june
1066 2011-07-20 12:43:56 <moa7> just going to dig back through my logs and see what I can find ...
1067 2011-07-20 12:44:28 <moa7> symptoms sound v. similar to what I recall seeing
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1070 2011-07-20 12:46:13 <moa7> easier to do there with small numbers of identifiable nodes and concentrated mining power
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1079 2011-07-20 12:53:41 <prof7bit> i'm still a little bit confused about the "official" block pruning idea: Is it even possible to permanently prune old blocks and let the entire network forget these transactions (let the peers only exchange the pruned versions from then on) without introducing a hole? can it ever be validated that a block is not pruned a little bit too much?
1080 2011-07-20 12:54:00 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1081 2011-07-20 12:55:08 <lfm> prof7bit: so long as the "pruning" is restricted to block "sufficiently old" like a week old or something.
1082 2011-07-20 12:56:23 <prof7bit> what if a new client starts downloading the block chain, how can it make sure that the pruned old blocks it downloads are not actually pruned too much?
1083 2011-07-20 12:56:27 <Marf> i think all the bitcoins in an block must have been respend, else the block cant be deleted, even if hes 1000 years old
1084 2011-07-20 12:56:39 <sipa> prof7bit: that's what the merkle tree is for
1085 2011-07-20 12:57:01 <sipa> prof7bit: a full node can provide the path in the tree from a tx to the root without knowing all other tx's
1086 2011-07-20 12:57:10 <sipa> and the lightweight node can verify this
1087 2011-07-20 12:57:28 <prof7bit> but what prevents me from removing a tx that should not have been removed at all and serve this to another node?
1088 2011-07-20 12:57:53 <cjdelisle> I thought the consept of pruning was that you just had to trust that there wern't any bunk entries in the partial chain.
1089 2011-07-20 12:57:56 <lfm> I think you keep the 80 byte block headers. then you can verify the chain of prev hashes in the headers. not sure tho
1090 2011-07-20 12:58:40 <UukGoblin> prof7bit, nothing... but the other node can get the data you incorrectly pruned from elsewhere
1091 2011-07-20 12:58:49 <sipa> prof7bit: because you should not remove a tx that is not spent?
1092 2011-07-20 12:58:57 <sipa> and if it is spent, you can remove it?
1093 2011-07-20 12:59:19 <UukGoblin> prof7bit, and at least the person who owns the (pruned) address has incentive to keep his transaction chain remembered
1094 2011-07-20 12:59:34 <lfm> you could retreive a full set of block headers and merkle trees and then only ask for txn as you need them.
1095 2011-07-20 12:59:40 <prof7bit> sipa: if i am an evil node and want to trick the other node into believing some tx has never happened
1096 2011-07-20 13:00:03 <sipa> prof7bit: how would you do that?
1097 2011-07-20 13:00:19 <sipa> yes you can remove too many things
1098 2011-07-20 13:00:26 <prof7bit> i would properly prune it from the block, leaving the merkle intact
1099 2011-07-20 13:01:02 <sipa> and not answer when a lightweight node requests it?
1100 2011-07-20 13:01:16 <sipa> that has nothing to do with pruning, just with being unwilling to serve it
1101 2011-07-20 13:01:32 <prof7bit> therefoe my question: can the network as a whole decide to share only pruned blocks and *nobody* knows the full blocks anymore
1102 2011-07-20 13:01:39 <lfm> the txn hash is in the merkle and in the referring cout index. if you refused to serve it, someone else would have it
1103 2011-07-20 13:02:01 <sipa> the network as a whole can decide that yes
1104 2011-07-20 13:02:25 <prof7bit> but how would i know i have to request it again from elsewhere if there is nohing to trigger any suspicion?
1105 2011-07-20 13:02:27 <sipa> but that would break the security assumption of lightweight nodes
1106 2011-07-20 13:02:42 <sipa> there is also no error
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1108 2011-07-20 13:02:49 <sipa> you just don't get what you ask for
1109 2011-07-20 13:03:01 <sipa> you'll always ask every node you are connected to
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1111 2011-07-20 13:03:33 <lfm> prof7bit: the txn with a ref to it in the input would trigger the suspician wouldnt it?
1112 2011-07-20 13:03:33 <prof7bit> <sipa> the network as a whole can decide that yes <-- but after it has forgotten the complete blocks, how can it make sure it has not forgotten too much?
1113 2011-07-20 13:03:55 <cjdelisle> I invisioned pruning as a means for not every node to have to know everything, ie: the chain could be broken up and spread across a dht network
1114 2011-07-20 13:04:50 <prof7bit> lfm: but what if this happens too late and the wrongly pruned block has already made its way to too many nodes?
1115 2011-07-20 13:05:02 <sipa> prof7bit: pruned blocks are never sent
1116 2011-07-20 13:05:09 <sipa> only full blocks, and transactions
1117 2011-07-20 13:05:19 <prof7bit> sipa: that *is* my initial question
1118 2011-07-20 13:05:26 <sipa> pruning is just a local storage optimization
1119 2011-07-20 13:05:50 <sipa> you can't send a pruned block because there is nothing in the protocol to do so
1120 2011-07-20 13:05:55 <prof7bit> *can* it ever be made to send only pruned blocks and make the network forget the full blocks or is this generally impossible
1121 2011-07-20 13:06:12 <sipa> why would you send a pruned block?
1122 2011-07-20 13:06:18 <sipa> ah right
1123 2011-07-20 13:06:18 <sipa> nvm
1124 2011-07-20 13:06:23 <sipa> yes i see what you mean
1125 2011-07-20 13:06:30 <sipa> for the initial download a full client does
1126 2011-07-20 13:06:41 <prof7bit> because the answr to the "scaling problem" is someone will come up with the pruning answer
1127 2011-07-20 13:06:52 <upb> AndyBr: you can also build it with vc
1128 2011-07-20 13:07:08 <sipa> the obvious answer indeed seems to extend to protocol to send pruned blocks
1129 2011-07-20 13:07:19 <prof7bit> and as i see it there *must* be a full block to verify that all tx are actually present
1130 2011-07-20 13:07:33 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1131 2011-07-20 13:07:38 <lfm> prof7bit: your saying a ref to it might get rejected as invalid txn if the input ref seems invalid? I think miners would need to make sure they dont do this then.
1132 2011-07-20 13:07:51 <sipa> well, the security of the network relies on at least some nodes keeping the entire chain
1133 2011-07-20 13:08:03 <sipa> if nobody keeps those, there is a problem, yes
1134 2011-07-20 13:08:24 <lfm> prof7bit: you just need the full merkles. they have all the txn hashes
1135 2011-07-20 13:08:28 <sipa> but that is equal to currently assuming all clients have some bug that will make the stop functioning somewhere in the future
1136 2011-07-20 13:08:35 <prof7bit> <sipa> the obvious answer indeed seems to extend to protocol to send pruned blocks <-- but this would open a hole because a lot of differently pruned blocks would equally validate the merkle
1137 2011-07-20 13:08:44 <sipa> yes, so?
1138 2011-07-20 13:09:03 <sipa> ah, wait
1139 2011-07-20 13:09:17 <prof7bit> how can my client make sure that the pruned blocks it received has not pruned too much from it
1140 2011-07-20 13:09:23 <lfm> prof7bit: there is only one possible merkle tree for each block
1141 2011-07-20 13:09:31 <sipa> i don't think satoshi intended for pruned blocks to be sent around
1142 2011-07-20 13:09:43 <prof7bit> for example removed *all* tx ever made from addess xyz
1143 2011-07-20 13:10:33 <prof7bit> i would only notice it some time in the future when a conflict occurs because a tx is referring to one of the outputs i never knew about
1144 2011-07-20 13:10:58 <lfm> prof7bit: the solution is if a pruned node sez the txn does not exist, you ask a "full" node.
1145 2011-07-20 13:11:26 <sipa> right, you are actually introducing three classes of nodes - full nodes, pruned nodes, lightweight nodes
1146 2011-07-20 13:11:55 <lfm> pruned and lightweight are the same tho, no?
1147 2011-07-20 13:12:00 <sipa> not at all
1148 2011-07-20 13:12:07 <sipa> lightweight nodes only keep block headers
1149 2011-07-20 13:12:10 <prof7bit> *my* understanding is that pruning can only ever be used for local storage (and for saving bandwith when requesting pruned blocks from a *trusted* node) but there must be the original blocks kept around in the network and accessible and requestable if doubt arises.
1150 2011-07-20 13:12:14 <sipa> and no transactions at all
1151 2011-07-20 13:12:22 <sipa> prof7bit: i think you are right
1152 2011-07-20 13:12:55 <sipa> requesting a pruned block requires trust
1153 2011-07-20 13:13:16 <sipa> gmaxwell had an idea for introducing a merkle tree for unspent tx's
1154 2011-07-20 13:13:40 <sipa> that, if fixed in the block chain, could be used to prove someone knows about all unspent tx's
1155 2011-07-20 13:14:01 <prof7bit> and only nodes that have full blocks should be alloowed to send pruned blocks (because only they can ever make sure that the pruning has be done correctly)
1156 2011-07-20 13:14:23 <prof7bit> because they have done it themselves
1157 2011-07-20 13:14:39 <prof7bit> others would only resend blocks they know nothing about
1158 2011-07-20 13:14:47 agricocb has joined
1159 2011-07-20 13:15:04 <sipa> well but they still can't prove they know the whole block
1160 2011-07-20 13:15:09 <sipa> so that is not useful
1161 2011-07-20 13:15:10 <cjdelisle> Perhaps the node would get all of the headers then request the transactions as needed from a dht?
1162 2011-07-20 13:15:23 <lfm> depends how much you throw away tho. if you keep the block headers and merkle trees, you have all the txn hashes and can request those txn when you need them.
1163 2011-07-20 13:15:41 <cjdelisle> *halfnode
1164 2011-07-20 13:16:00 <prof7bit> ok, they cant prove they have the full block.
1165 2011-07-20 13:16:19 <prof7bit> the only way is to actually send the full block
1166 2011-07-20 13:16:23 <sipa> you just need trust in the node you are accepting a pruned block from
1167 2011-07-20 13:16:40 <prof7bit> exactly
1168 2011-07-20 13:17:00 <sipa> i'm actually starting to like gmaxwell's idea now
1169 2011-07-20 13:17:41 <prof7bit> but this means trusted nodes actually can exist. if all nodes are only relaying pruned blocks from other nodes and nobody can validate it themselves then there are no trusted nodes anymore
1170 2011-07-20 13:18:05 <sipa> i suppose there will always be some nodes keeping all blocks, forever
1171 2011-07-20 13:18:10 <lfm> prof7bit: are you saying throw away block headers and merkle trees too?
1172 2011-07-20 13:19:12 <prof7bit> lfm: i plan to keep the block headers and after receiving a full block i will check the merkle for correctness and *then* throw it away. my local storage is trusted.
1173 2011-07-20 13:19:45 Speeder has joined
1174 2011-07-20 13:20:22 <lfm> why keep the block headers at all , other than a few recent ones.
1175 2011-07-20 13:20:33 <prof7bit> i will use the full merkle to make sure all tx are present and *then* throw away everything except the block headers and the unspent outputs
1176 2011-07-20 13:21:16 <prof7bit> maybe throw away old block headers too.
1177 2011-07-20 13:23:33 <lfm> ya, then you would not be serving partial blocks, only txns maybe
1178 2011-07-20 13:23:47 <prof7bit> and actually i only need the outputs from my *own* addresses
1179 2011-07-20 13:24:13 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1180 2011-07-20 13:24:14 <prof7bit> outputs *to* my own addresses
1181 2011-07-20 13:24:41 <prof7bit> unless I am loading a different wallet
1182 2011-07-20 13:24:54 <prof7bit> then i would have to request all old blocks
1183 2011-07-20 13:26:00 <prof7bit> so i will always store all old outputs so i can switch the wallet in an instant
1184 2011-07-20 13:26:15 <lfm> a new node trying to initialize should just forget about trying to ask your node for anything it seems
1185 2011-07-20 13:26:45 cjdelisle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1186 2011-07-20 13:26:53 <prof7bit> i will send 0x0000000000000000 in the services field
1187 2011-07-20 13:27:18 <prof7bit> if i interpret this correctly this means "i am not a full client"
1188 2011-07-20 13:27:30 <erus`> prof7bit: all numbers in base 2 please
1189 2011-07-20 13:27:42 <lfm> erus?
1190 2011-07-20 13:28:12 Tiraspol has joined
1191 2011-07-20 13:28:32 <prof7bit> i believe bitcoin does this too
1192 2011-07-20 13:28:38 <prof7bit> bitcoinj
1193 2011-07-20 13:28:44 <lfm> erus`: if you ment that as a joke you should put a smiley or something on it.
1194 2011-07-20 13:28:45 <prof7bit> my 'j' key is broken
1195 2011-07-20 13:28:59 <erus`> 0b0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1196 2011-07-20 13:29:40 <lfm> prof7bit: don't put up with that! keyboards are cheap!
1197 2011-07-20 13:30:06 <prof7bit> i wanted to illustrate that i have gone to the exreme of setting *all* 64 bits to zero individually ;-)
1198 2011-07-20 13:30:20 <prof7bit> its a laptop
1199 2011-07-20 13:30:28 <prof7bit> thinkpad
1200 2011-07-20 13:30:42 <lfm> oh, ok laptops are a pain.
1201 2011-07-20 13:31:01 <erus`> i have a scrapped thinkpad here
1202 2011-07-20 13:31:05 <erus`> what model?
1203 2011-07-20 13:31:11 <prof7bit> t40
1204 2011-07-20 13:31:14 <WakiMiko> no vim without j
1205 2011-07-20 13:31:39 cjdelisle has joined
1206 2011-07-20 13:31:45 <prof7bit> my cpu fan is broken too, so i only can run it on 1GHz max
1207 2011-07-20 13:31:47 <erus`> well i have a r31
1208 2011-07-20 13:32:01 <erus`> if the keyboards are compatible i will send you the keyboard
1209 2011-07-20 13:32:04 <prof7bit> (1.3 would be possible)
1210 2011-07-20 13:32:13 <erus`> its only going in the bin
1211 2011-07-20 13:32:46 <prof7bit> are you planning to throw away the entire laptop?
1212 2011-07-20 13:33:23 <erus`> yer
1213 2011-07-20 13:33:31 <erus`> i think i stripped the hdd and ram
1214 2011-07-20 13:33:58 <prof7bit> i would need ram. and a HD. and a DVD-ROM drive.
1215 2011-07-20 13:34:25 <prof7bit> because the dvd is broken too
1216 2011-07-20 13:34:27 blueadept has joined
1217 2011-07-20 13:34:40 <erus`> does yours have a blue button on the dvd drive?
1218 2011-07-20 13:34:45 <prof7bit> but this t40 has served me very well, it has done its ob during many years
1219 2011-07-20 13:34:54 <prof7bit> yes
1220 2011-07-20 13:35:30 <erus`> this is so old
1221 2011-07-20 13:35:38 <erus`> i dont know how to take these apart
1222 2011-07-20 13:35:43 <prof7bit> i once bought it on ebay many years ago and it has been running almost 90% of the time and seen many places and traveled many kilometers a day
1223 2011-07-20 13:35:59 <erus`> you owe me bitcoins if i can get the parts out of it :P
1224 2011-07-20 13:36:07 <lfm> pitty you may need to retire a whole laptop cuz of a bad key but there may be not much you can do.
1225 2011-07-20 13:36:39 klikklak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1226 2011-07-20 13:36:49 <prof7bit> unfortunalely i don't have a noticable amount of couns yet. i might buy some if it is down at 8$ (which will happen according to my analysis)
1227 2011-07-20 13:36:53 <erus`> prof7bit: where do you live?
1228 2011-07-20 13:36:57 again is now known as tower
1229 2011-07-20 13:36:59 <prof7bit> germany
1230 2011-07-20 13:37:06 <prof7bit> hannover
1231 2011-07-20 13:37:08 <erus`> how much is postage from uk?
1232 2011-07-20 13:37:56 <prof7bit> i have no idea. i seldomly send things around, i am completely living inside the network.
1233 2011-07-20 13:38:29 <upb> s/network/pascal/
1234 2011-07-20 13:38:43 <upb> btw the keyboard for t4* is not that expensive i have bought 2 new ones for my t43
1235 2011-07-20 13:38:46 <upb> its like $50
1236 2011-07-20 13:39:32 <prof7bit> my plan is to by a complete new laptop soon
1237 2011-07-20 13:39:51 <BlueMatt> I get mine on saturday :)
1238 2011-07-20 13:39:56 <upb> i dont think lenovo makes anymore laptops with normal screen aspect
1239 2011-07-20 13:40:00 <prof7bit> and keep the old one. and do this before it fiinally breaks completely.
1240 2011-07-20 13:40:03 <upb> all the new ones are wide
1241 2011-07-20 13:40:06 <BlueMatt> why would you want 4:3?
1242 2011-07-20 13:40:13 <upb> because its good :)
1243 2011-07-20 13:40:25 <upb> and its good because its not bad
1244 2011-07-20 13:40:31 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: you got time to check/build CocoaBitcoin?
1245 2011-07-20 13:40:37 <BlueMatt> 9:16 is good for coding, 16:9 is good for about anything else...
1246 2011-07-20 13:40:44 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: sure, uh...let be spin up my vm
1247 2011-07-20 13:40:48 <prof7bit> maybe not a brand new one, maybe 1 year used or so.
1248 2011-07-20 13:40:57 <b4epoche> okay
1249 2011-07-20 13:41:07 <prof7bit> an not a consumer model. it must be a T series.
1250 2011-07-20 13:41:27 <BlueMatt> ordered a t420, get it on saturday :)
1251 2011-07-20 13:41:30 b4epoche_ has joined
1252 2011-07-20 13:41:35 shLONG has joined
1253 2011-07-20 13:41:44 <BlueMatt> cant wait to completely remove windows from that machine...always a fun process :)
1254 2011-07-20 13:41:49 <BlueMatt> blowing away shit
1255 2011-07-20 13:41:53 <prof7bit> T is the reason i can only afford a used one. but they are usually better than a brand new consumer laptop.
1256 2011-07-20 13:42:43 <BlueMatt> I got like 20% off mine
1257 2011-07-20 13:43:02 <BlueMatt> student discount (which they didnt bother to check for validity, btw) and some other random discout that was like 10% off today, have fun
1258 2011-07-20 13:43:09 <UukGoblin> I like X
1259 2011-07-20 13:43:11 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1260 2011-07-20 13:43:19 <UukGoblin> I have x41
1261 2011-07-20 13:43:20 <prof7bit> this T40 here has encountered adventures in its long life no other laptop would have survived.
1262 2011-07-20 13:43:38 <UukGoblin> x41tablet, that is
1263 2011-07-20 13:44:49 <erus`> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QL6ZG2Nx8DnNyzlBrCR5qaaYF8u6BHFSLwJgysURyk0?feat=directlink prof7bit does that look compatible ?
1264 2011-07-20 13:45:03 <upb> are you sure ?:P some fool in the army dropped mine from below the ceiling to ground
1265 2011-07-20 13:45:18 <upb> was inside a sports bag
1266 2011-07-20 13:45:34 mmoya has joined
1267 2011-07-20 13:46:17 unclemantis has joined
1268 2011-07-20 13:46:33 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: hey, uh is it in git, or what?
1269 2011-07-20 13:47:00 pimpinganiteasy has joined
1270 2011-07-20 13:47:00 <prof7bit> erus`: almost. except the keys at the top (the panel where the power button is) and the english keyboard layout. I need german keys.
1271 2011-07-20 13:47:04 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1272 2011-07-20 13:48:14 dvide has quit ()
1273 2011-07-20 13:48:26 <erus`> bummer
1274 2011-07-20 13:48:42 <WakiMiko> what exactly does the fClient flag in CNode specify? that the client has the full blocks and not just headers?
1275 2011-07-20 13:48:52 <erus`> prof7bit: you can just swap the keys?
1276 2011-07-20 13:49:24 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I thought I was just going to bundle and send to you
1277 2011-07-20 13:49:31 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well that works
1278 2011-07-20 13:49:56 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: are there any changes to the original code, or were there minor ones made?
1279 2011-07-20 13:50:00 <prof7bit> btw. this is one of the reasons why the pascal language is so much more popular in germany: the { and } for the C like languages are a royal pain to use on german keyboard layouts.
1280 2011-07-20 13:50:10 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: very minor
1281 2011-07-20 13:50:18 asuk has quit (Quit: leaving)
1282 2011-07-20 13:50:23 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: alright, well lets see it then
1283 2011-07-20 13:50:44 <BlueMatt> preferably a website upload, I dont have my email in this vm
1284 2011-07-20 13:50:51 <b4epoche> k
1285 2011-07-20 13:52:39 <lfm> wakimiko I dont think that flag is actually used yet. it is always true.
1286 2011-07-20 13:52:54 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: http://db.tt/W4YtWys
1287 2011-07-20 13:53:07 agricocb has joined
1288 2011-07-20 13:53:49 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: is it rebased onto the latest, or is it an old codebase?
1289 2011-07-20 13:54:00 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1290 2011-07-20 13:54:15 <WakiMiko> lfm: it only gets set to true if the client reports NODE_NETWORK in services
1291 2011-07-20 13:54:16 <b4epoche> latest? I'm never sure if you mean nightly or release
1292 2011-07-20 13:54:21 <WakiMiko> pfrom->fClient = !(pfrom->nServices & NODE_NETWORK);
1293 2011-07-20 13:54:24 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: nightly
1294 2011-07-20 13:54:26 <b4epoche> it's rebased on latest release
1295 2011-07-20 13:54:26 Tycale_ has joined
1296 2011-07-20 13:54:31 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
1297 2011-07-20 13:54:39 <BlueMatt> so its just missing the encryption stuff
1298 2011-07-20 13:54:49 <b4epoche> nighties are too dynamic ;-)
1299 2011-07-20 13:54:52 minus has quit (Quit: Bye)
1300 2011-07-20 13:54:55 <BlueMatt> true
1301 2011-07-20 13:55:02 minus has joined
1302 2011-07-20 13:55:08 <b4epoche> nightlies are too
1303 2011-07-20 13:55:09 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1304 2011-07-20 13:55:12 <BlueMatt> well to be a merge candidate, it does need to have the encryption stuff
1305 2011-07-20 13:55:17 <lfm> WakiMiko: ok, I dont know then.
1306 2011-07-20 13:55:59 <b4epoche> I just thought this was for getting a CocoaBitcoin based on latest release of other versions
1307 2011-07-20 13:56:19 <b4epoche> you want binary too?
1308 2011-07-20 13:56:21 superman2011 has joined
1309 2011-07-20 13:56:32 Zagitta has joined
1310 2011-07-20 13:56:37 <BlueMatt> absolutely, but my goal was for this to become in the original client
1311 2011-07-20 13:56:38 <b4epoche> I'd like to walk someone through the build process so I can document it
1312 2011-07-20 13:56:40 Tycale has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1313 2011-07-20 13:56:52 superman2016 has joined
1314 2011-07-20 13:57:01 random_cat has joined
1315 2011-07-20 13:57:04 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: okay, getting up to the nightlies is my next goal
1316 2011-07-20 13:57:19 <BlueMatt> yea, it should just be add encryption stuff, which is fairly minor
1317 2011-07-20 13:57:44 <b4epoche> you want core code change log?
1318 2011-07-20 13:57:51 <BlueMatt> I can diff it
1319 2011-07-20 13:58:01 <b4epoche> okay
1320 2011-07-20 13:58:53 * b4epoche is selling his bitcoins to buy Apple stock ;-)
1321 2011-07-20 13:59:02 <BlueMatt> lol have fun with that
1322 2011-07-20 13:59:19 <b4epoche> actually not⦠I could buy like 1 share
1323 2011-07-20 13:59:45 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.)
1324 2011-07-20 13:59:49 * b4epoche doesn't have the heart to look to see how many shares he sold in 1999
1325 2011-07-20 14:01:12 <erus`> apple stock can only fall now
1326 2011-07-20 14:01:23 <b4epoche> that's what people keep saying
1327 2011-07-20 14:01:31 <erus`> after a little gain from iphone5
1328 2011-07-20 14:01:43 <b4epoche> fundamentally, it's cheap even now
1329 2011-07-20 14:01:56 <AndyBr> when is iphone5 coming? my 3gs is pretty broken
1330 2011-07-20 14:02:23 <erus`> go android
1331 2011-07-20 14:03:44 <AndyBr> iphone works perfectly for me, no need to switch
1332 2011-07-20 14:04:24 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: I thought you figured out how to not rename CDB?
1333 2011-07-20 14:04:32 <b4epoche> nope
1334 2011-07-20 14:04:40 <b4epoche> I tried a bunch of stuff
1335 2011-07-20 14:04:42 <BlueMatt> I thought you found an ifdef in there
1336 2011-07-20 14:04:46 <b4epoche> I did
1337 2011-07-20 14:04:52 koleg has joined
1338 2011-07-20 14:04:56 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1339 2011-07-20 14:04:56 <BlueMatt> and defining didnt work?
1340 2011-07-20 14:05:01 <b4epoche> nope
1341 2011-07-20 14:05:21 copumpkin has joined
1342 2011-07-20 14:05:25 Tycale has joined
1343 2011-07-20 14:05:25 <BlueMatt> well thats just straight up impossible
1344 2011-07-20 14:05:35 <b4epoche> #define __SCSI__
1345 2011-07-20 14:05:47 <b4epoche> that's in main.m
1346 2011-07-20 14:06:04 <BlueMatt> ok why the hell is xcode not being able to point to my deps?
1347 2011-07-20 14:06:40 ar4s has joined
1348 2011-07-20 14:06:41 <b4epoche> binary: http://db.tt/acNB7DL
1349 2011-07-20 14:07:14 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: all my deps are in /opt/local
1350 2011-07-20 14:07:20 <b4epoche> i.e. macports
1351 2011-07-20 14:07:24 <BlueMatt> oh, mine arnt, are you using macports
1352 2011-07-20 14:07:25 <BlueMatt> ah
1353 2011-07-20 14:07:30 <BlueMatt> I built all mine...
1354 2011-07-20 14:07:35 <b4epoche> I even stashed the upnp stuff there
1355 2011-07-20 14:07:53 <b4epoche> I built all mine but wanted to make it easier for others
1356 2011-07-20 14:08:00 <b4epoche> so I 'rebased' on macports stuff
1357 2011-07-20 14:08:42 <BlueMatt> hm, cannot be opened because of a problem on that binary
1358 2011-07-20 14:09:26 <b4epoche> can you open Console.app and check logs
1359 2011-07-20 14:09:40 <BlueMatt> oh, uh missing libiconv.2.dylib
1360 2011-07-20 14:09:52 <BlueMatt> that should be a wx thing
1361 2011-07-20 14:10:12 <b4epoche> maybe⦠I wasn't sure why it was needed.
1362 2011-07-20 14:10:16 <minus> ;;bc,stats
1363 2011-07-20 14:10:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137191 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 1912 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1578905.96247657
1364 2011-07-20 14:11:28 <b4epoche> building without
1365 2011-07-20 14:12:43 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1366 2011-07-20 14:13:01 <WakiMiko> lfm: i was wrong about fClient, seems it gets set to false if a node provides full blocks. the client itself also has a global fClient flag that is always set to false. satoshi probably intended it to be set to true for nodes that do SPV. setting the global fClient flag to true stops the client from sending NODE_NETWORK in the services field in version msgs
1367 2011-07-20 14:13:28 <b4epoche> try the new binary (same URL)
1368 2011-07-20 14:13:53 <b4epoche> and, libiconv was not needed
1369 2011-07-20 14:14:57 <BlueMatt> can I ask why the icon change?
1370 2011-07-20 14:15:15 <BlueMatt> now its missing libdb_cxx-4.8...
1371 2011-07-20 14:15:32 <b4epoche> you building or just running?
1372 2011-07-20 14:15:38 <BlueMatt> running for now
1373 2011-07-20 14:15:49 <b4epoche> oh, that was the BitcoinTrader icon
1374 2011-07-20 14:15:59 <b4epoche> forgot to swap it out
1375 2011-07-20 14:16:05 <BlueMatt> ah, ok there is already a bitcoin icon somewhere in the source...
1376 2011-07-20 14:16:21 <b4epoche> libdb_cxx-4.8.dylib?
1377 2011-07-20 14:16:24 <BlueMatt> yea
1378 2011-07-20 14:16:42 ProgramMax has joined
1379 2011-07-20 14:16:53 <BlueMatt> it doesnt look like there are any dylibs in that app
1380 2011-07-20 14:17:04 <b4epoche> wtf? I statically like everything
1381 2011-07-20 14:17:06 <b4epoche> I thought
1382 2011-07-20 14:17:07 <BlueMatt> oh
1383 2011-07-20 14:17:11 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: that pull i got merged with the official app bundle has an osx compat icon in it
1384 2011-07-20 14:17:31 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: yea, I know there are osx icons...
1385 2011-07-20 14:17:36 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: it's in contrib/BitCoin.app/
1386 2011-07-20 14:17:54 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: ya just letting you know it's actually in git and where it was to save you some time ;p
1387 2011-07-20 14:17:55 <b4epoche> an .ics?
1388 2011-07-20 14:18:02 <jrmithdobbs> icn
1389 2011-07-20 14:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: also is your ui lion compat?
1390 2011-07-20 14:18:26 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
1391 2011-07-20 14:18:33 <b4epoche> I'll make an icns
1392 2011-07-20 14:18:40 <b4epoche> building on Lion ;-)
1393 2011-07-20 14:18:47 <jrmithdobbs> downloading now
1394 2011-07-20 14:19:03 <b4epoche> oh, is the 'official' out?
1395 2011-07-20 14:19:11 <jrmithdobbs> ya official launched this morning
1396 2011-07-20 14:19:14 <b4epoche> wasn't sure what time
1397 2011-07-20 14:19:21 <jrmithdobbs> along with mini and macbook air and cinema display bumps
1398 2011-07-20 14:19:22 <BlueMatt> really? damn how did I not see that
1399 2011-07-20 14:19:35 <jrmithdobbs> happened literally an hour and a half or so ago
1400 2011-07-20 14:19:35 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1401 2011-07-20 14:20:04 <jrmithdobbs> i'm trying to keep myself from upgrading my 11" macbook air
1402 2011-07-20 14:20:35 <jrmithdobbs> might do it just to get the gf off the soon-to-be-end-of-lifed whitebook that's heavy as a brick
1403 2011-07-20 14:21:24 <AndyBr> how do you like macbook air's performance?
1404 2011-07-20 14:21:51 <jrmithdobbs> great for my uses
1405 2011-07-20 14:22:16 <jrmithdobbs> i've got the current (well, now, last) gen version
1406 2011-07-20 14:22:26 glassresistor has joined
1407 2011-07-20 14:22:43 <jrmithdobbs> fully specced out (1.6 core2duo, 4G ram, 128G ssd) 11"
1408 2011-07-20 14:22:49 <jrmithdobbs> i <3 tiny portable laptops ;p
1409 2011-07-20 14:22:59 <BlueMatt> 1.6 core2duo yuck
1410 2011-07-20 14:23:16 <AndyBr> jrmithdobbs: sounds pretty nice
1411 2011-07-20 14:23:30 <jrmithdobbs> it's 64bit and got vt extensions so for normal laptop usage it's more than adequate
1412 2011-07-20 14:23:46 <jrmithdobbs> (64bit == fast aes, vt == workable vmware usage)
1413 2011-07-20 14:24:20 <BlueMatt> core2duo even with that...no
1414 2011-07-20 14:24:51 <BlueMatt> plus 11 inch screen
1415 2011-07-20 14:25:03 <BlueMatt> that is just impossible to work on
1416 2011-07-20 14:29:25 <AndyBr> quite
1417 2011-07-20 14:30:10 <Sami345> It's not just you! http://mining.bitcoin.cz looks down from here.
1418 2011-07-20 14:30:16 <Sami345> slush1, fix it :D
1419 2011-07-20 14:30:47 <Sami345> 504 Gateway Time-out
1420 2011-07-20 14:32:42 <erus`> online for me
1421 2011-07-20 14:33:55 TheZimm has joined
1422 2011-07-20 14:34:05 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: try new binary, same URL
1423 2011-07-20 14:34:28 <luke-jr> Sami345: #Eligius ;)
1424 2011-07-20 14:34:58 <b4epoche> looks down from here
1425 2011-07-20 14:35:30 <b4epoche> I get: 502 Bad Gateway
1426 2011-07-20 14:37:06 <Zagitta> luke-jr: #Eligius - 30 hour rounds :p
1427 2011-07-20 14:37:11 WildSoil has joined
1428 2011-07-20 14:37:17 <WildSoil> ;;bc,stats
1429 2011-07-20 14:37:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137194 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 1909 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 6 hours, 1 minute, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1588741.41405150
1430 2011-07-20 14:38:03 <luke-jr> Zagitta: not regularly! :P
1431 2011-07-20 14:38:19 <luke-jr> Zagitta: it can happen to any pool
1432 2011-07-20 14:38:28 <iddo> gmaxwell: are you here?
1433 2011-07-20 14:38:54 <Zagitta> luke-jr: true, i was mostly just kiddin', i mine on eligius myself :)
1434 2011-07-20 14:39:14 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: funny, I just found a bug in Finder in GM
1435 2011-07-20 14:40:04 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: hm, crashed before opening
1436 2011-07-20 14:40:18 <BlueMatt> backtrace: thread 3 the relevant parts from your application:
1437 2011-07-20 14:40:21 <BlueMatt> AppInit + 113
1438 2011-07-20 14:40:30 <BlueMatt> and createWalletThreadWithRunLoop +330
1439 2011-07-20 14:41:13 <b4epoche> that's really strange. doesn't crash here (obviously)
1440 2011-07-20 14:41:23 <BlueMatt> yea
1441 2011-07-20 14:41:33 <BlueMatt> well let me work on building it myself and see if I can get further
1442 2011-07-20 14:42:01 <b4epoche> getting all the depends compile will take you a bit
1443 2011-07-20 14:42:07 * Speeder wonders when bitcoin will resume its rise.
1444 2011-07-20 14:42:19 <BlueMatt> Ive got them in a folder, Ive just got to figure out how to get xcode to read them from there...
1445 2011-07-20 14:42:29 <BlueMatt> or actually, where are your deps? /opt something?
1446 2011-07-20 14:42:35 <luke-jr> Speeder: when I sell
1447 2011-07-20 14:42:42 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: /opt/local
1448 2011-07-20 14:42:54 <Speeder> luke-jr: Oo
1449 2011-07-20 14:43:17 <luke-jr> Speeder: I'll eventually give up, sell at a loss, then price will skyrocket
1450 2011-07-20 14:43:26 <b4epoche> or I can show you how to change search path in Xcode
1451 2011-07-20 14:43:35 <WakiMiko> luke-jr: same here :C
1452 2011-07-20 14:43:36 <Speeder> luke-jr: I see, that always happen
1453 2011-07-20 14:43:42 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well I tried that, but it didnt work
1454 2011-07-20 14:43:44 <Speeder> at least you have what to sell
1455 2011-07-20 14:43:47 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: obviously Im an xcode noob here
1456 2011-07-20 14:43:51 <Speeder> my bitcoins went into DISHWARA
1457 2011-07-20 14:43:52 <Speeder> :(
1458 2011-07-20 14:43:52 <Blitzboom> Speeder: it wonât
1459 2011-07-20 14:43:55 <Blitzboom> :P
1460 2011-07-20 14:44:01 <WakiMiko> whats that
1461 2011-07-20 14:44:36 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: I understand and can help (if you want). I certainly owe you some help
1462 2011-07-20 14:44:52 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: well sure, pm me and we can try to work through this...
1463 2011-07-20 14:45:05 b4epoche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1464 2011-07-20 14:45:07 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: what bug is that
1465 2011-07-20 14:46:39 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: http://snapplr.com/vm84
1466 2011-07-20 14:46:51 <luke-jr> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23768.msg382922#msg382922
1467 2011-07-20 14:46:55 <b4epoche> http://snapplr.com/80rm
1468 2011-07-20 14:47:32 <b4epoche> clicking around on different view types eventually causes a crash
1469 2011-07-20 14:48:10 <luke-jr> oops
1470 2011-07-20 14:48:13 <luke-jr> wrong chan
1471 2011-07-20 14:48:25 copumpkin has joined
1472 2011-07-20 14:48:43 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: i'm sad that the new macbook airs don't have a 256GB offering in the 11" :(
1473 2011-07-20 14:49:05 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: I haven't looked into the new stuff yet
1474 2011-07-20 14:49:46 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: core2duo is dead
1475 2011-07-20 14:49:50 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: and so is optical media
1476 2011-07-20 14:49:55 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: there, you're pretty much caught up ;p
1477 2011-07-20 14:50:02 <b4epoche> okay
1478 2011-07-20 14:50:08 <jrmithdobbs> (imacs/macpros only thing left with optical drives)
1479 2011-07-20 14:50:11 <b4epoche> nothing surprising, eh?
1480 2011-07-20 14:50:18 <jrmithdobbs> not really
1481 2011-07-20 14:50:27 Rabbit67890 has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1482 2011-07-20 14:50:46 <b4epoche> I guess Thunderbolt isn't really a surprise
1483 2011-07-20 14:51:07 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: basically the mbas got the i5/thunderbolt bump that's been expected for ~6 months, minis got i5 bump and mini server got i7 bump
1484 2011-07-20 14:51:17 <jrmithdobbs> minis got thunderbolt too (that surprised me a little)
1485 2011-07-20 14:51:24 <b4epoche> nice
1486 2011-07-20 14:52:25 <b4epoche> oh, nice⦠easy (well easier) access to mini's guts
1487 2011-07-20 14:52:35 BlueMattBot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1488 2011-07-20 14:52:42 <jrmithdobbs> oh ya? no more prying that shit open?
1489 2011-07-20 14:52:59 <b4epoche> Apple is so weird about that⦠they seem to go back and forth on that
1490 2011-07-20 14:53:05 <jrmithdobbs> that's why i haven't replaced the broken optical drive in mine (that and it broke 2 months after 1 yr was up and i forgot to buy applecare on that one)
1491 2011-07-20 14:53:08 <b4epoche> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
1492 2011-07-20 14:53:20 <b4epoche> 3rd bullet
1493 2011-07-20 14:53:32 <jrmithdobbs> nice
1494 2011-07-20 14:53:41 <jrmithdobbs> actually
1495 2011-07-20 14:53:47 <b4epoche> well, I guess memory is easy to get to
1496 2011-07-20 14:53:49 <jrmithdobbs> still no easy hdd access looks like
1497 2011-07-20 14:54:30 <b4epoche> yea, not sure how easy for other stuff. but there appears to be screws at least
1498 2011-07-20 14:54:48 <b4epoche> and not the funky 5-point Torx ones
1499 2011-07-20 14:54:58 <jrmithdobbs> i wouldn't bet on that latter part
1500 2011-07-20 14:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> probably fun star heads or something you can't tell from pictures ;p
1501 2011-07-20 14:55:15 <b4epoche> picture shows standard ones
1502 2011-07-20 14:56:51 <b4epoche> htf are they getting dual HDDs in that case for the Server version?
1503 2011-07-20 14:57:08 <jrmithdobbs> 2.5" 7200rpm drives
1504 2011-07-20 14:57:12 asuk has joined
1505 2011-07-20 14:57:24 <jrmithdobbs> we'll know how in 5-7 days once someone does a teardown
1506 2011-07-20 14:58:19 b4epoche_ has joined
1507 2011-07-20 14:59:03 <b4epoche> oh, no graphics card in the server one...
1508 2011-07-20 14:59:15 <b4epoche> I guess that might free up some space, but still
1509 2011-07-20 14:59:57 klikklak has joined
1510 2011-07-20 15:03:08 DD- has quit ()
1511 2011-07-20 15:04:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: BlueMatt: Eligius was running with the mainline fee rules â¹
1512 2011-07-20 15:04:44 <BlueMatt> oh...
1513 2011-07-20 15:04:52 WakiMiko_ has joined
1514 2011-07-20 15:04:54 <BlueMatt> oh well, too late now
1515 2011-07-20 15:05:07 <upb> did someone figure out your new challenge yet
1516 2011-07-20 15:05:25 <BlueMatt> no
1517 2011-07-20 15:05:28 <upb> dman
1518 2011-07-20 15:05:31 <upb> damn
1519 2011-07-20 15:05:34 <BlueMatt> when these coins get spent you know someone did: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1GYR2ugRiAZmnrDuyQFNSRBzLBn3NXmvoJ
1520 2011-07-20 15:05:54 <BlueMatt> Im gonna post a bit more on the thread tonight...24 hours after the first clue
1521 2011-07-20 15:06:00 <WakiMiko_> link to challenge please, i want to fail horribly
1522 2011-07-20 15:06:00 <ProgramMax> So you guys do a lot of GPGPU coding, eh?
1523 2011-07-20 15:06:09 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.0
1524 2011-07-20 15:06:14 <WakiMiko_> thanks
1525 2011-07-20 15:07:19 <ProgramMax> I want to get into GPGPU coding. I got ATI's Stream SDK on my computer at home (I'm at work right now)
1526 2011-07-20 15:07:32 <ProgramMax> but I feel like I'm lost once I get to the shader-y part
1527 2011-07-20 15:07:57 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1528 2011-07-20 15:07:57 <ProgramMax> I am fine creating the kernels and what not. But I don't yet know how to write the code that runs on the GPU
1529 2011-07-20 15:08:05 <ProgramMax> any suggestions where I should look / what I should learn?
1530 2011-07-20 15:09:34 <cjdelisle> read the code to one of the miner programs?
1531 2011-07-20 15:10:19 <ProgramMax> I could try that when I get home. As is, I don't even know what language it is
1532 2011-07-20 15:10:35 <cjdelisle> opencl which is a subste of C
1533 2011-07-20 15:10:42 <ProgramMax> CUDA seems to be its own variant of C, right? But ATI's is maybe just strait shader assembly?
1534 2011-07-20 15:10:47 <ProgramMax> oh kk
1535 2011-07-20 15:11:02 sabalaba has joined
1536 2011-07-20 15:11:06 <cjdelisle> cuda and opencl are almost identical (at least the miner code is)
1537 2011-07-20 15:11:36 <ProgramMax> just curious, it all gets boiled down to the shader assembly at some point. If my goal was to write a VM that sat ontop of whatever card, it seems like cuda / opencl's C variation is just an extra step
1538 2011-07-20 15:11:45 <ProgramMax> like...the VM should produce strait shader code, right?
1539 2011-07-20 15:12:15 <cjdelisle> naw, shaders compile to the same thing as opencl
1540 2011-07-20 15:12:17 <WakiMiko_> too lazy to to decode the base58 string lol
1541 2011-07-20 15:12:41 <ProgramMax> okay, help me understand that then
1542 2011-07-20 15:12:55 <ProgramMax> so you have some shader asm, or some opencl c, or some cuda
1543 2011-07-20 15:13:19 <ProgramMax> all of them get compiled to the opcodes for whatever card you targetted
1544 2011-07-20 15:13:38 BlueMattBot has joined
1545 2011-07-20 15:13:39 <ProgramMax> so opencl and cuda delay that last step to be able to target the card it is actually running on, right?
1546 2011-07-20 15:13:47 wardearia has joined
1547 2011-07-20 15:14:28 <cjdelisle> yea, you have to compile for the right card family
1548 2011-07-20 15:14:57 <ProgramMax> so...lets take a normal VM like Java or something
1549 2011-07-20 15:15:05 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1550 2011-07-20 15:15:10 <ProgramMax> I get the bytecode, it recompiles that to my target machine
1551 2011-07-20 15:15:21 <ProgramMax> writing the actual opcodes to memory, then flagging that memory page as executable
1552 2011-07-20 15:15:27 <ProgramMax> I would like to do that if I could
1553 2011-07-20 15:15:32 RazielZ has joined
1554 2011-07-20 15:15:35 <ProgramMax> so I would like to be the one compiling to the right card family
1555 2011-07-20 15:15:46 <cjdelisle> good luck
1556 2011-07-20 15:15:50 <ProgramMax> but is that some crazy dark alley that is best avoided?
1557 2011-07-20 15:16:03 <ProgramMax> maybe instead it should just compile to cuda / opencl?
1558 2011-07-20 15:16:43 <cjdelisle> The normal thing to do is just write cuda/opencl code and tell the compiler what type of card it's meant for.
1559 2011-07-20 15:16:57 <ProgramMax> (next problem is, I don't know where to find those docs. I don't see any nvidia/ati docs talking about the actual opcodes for each card family)
1560 2011-07-20 15:17:10 <ProgramMax> what do you do in the general case?
1561 2011-07-20 15:17:12 <BlueMatt> maybe you could try #bitcoin-mining ?
1562 2011-07-20 15:17:15 <ProgramMax> just compile for each card family?
1563 2011-07-20 15:17:42 m00p has joined
1564 2011-07-20 15:17:47 <ProgramMax> I'm in there. I figured this might be the better place to ask some GPGPU questions. But if I'm too off-topic I'll stop
1565 2011-07-20 15:17:52 Anaeluxo has joined
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1567 2011-07-20 15:20:00 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1568 2011-07-20 15:21:48 <luke-jr> ProgramMax: this is the right place, but I'm not sure if the right people are here
1569 2011-07-20 15:22:00 <ProgramMax> oh k
1570 2011-07-20 15:23:29 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1571 2011-07-20 15:24:00 <ProgramMax> I guess my question should be: Do you guys even know if the opcodes/docs for each card family are even published?
1572 2011-07-20 15:24:25 <ProgramMax> How do people do it for game dev? Compile through D3DX / HLSL at runtime?
1573 2011-07-20 15:26:15 zeropointo has joined
1574 2011-07-20 15:27:56 wardearia has joined
1575 2011-07-20 15:31:38 karnac has joined
1576 2011-07-20 15:32:44 <WakiMiko_> decoded the base58 string to hex, than that to ascii, i only get garbage, probably made a mistake somewhere
1577 2011-07-20 15:33:25 <luke-jr> â¦
1578 2011-07-20 15:33:50 <BlueMatt> Im actually surprised that everyone has been able to get through the second clue
1579 2011-07-20 15:33:50 <forrestv> ProgramMax, yes, it's compiled at runtime
1580 2011-07-20 15:33:57 <AndyBr> why am i hung over at 5:30pm ...
1581 2011-07-20 15:34:04 <BlueMatt> though no one has apparently figure out what the second clue fully means
1582 2011-07-20 15:34:45 <ProgramMax> so trying to make my own runtime compiler is something that just isn't done?
1583 2011-07-20 15:35:25 <ProgramMax> additionally, that might mean the card makers don't publish docs about the opcodes?
1584 2011-07-20 15:35:32 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
1585 2011-07-20 15:39:02 Burgundy has joined
1586 2011-07-20 15:39:24 <BlueMatt> you can get it, but you have to nda and all kinds of crap
1587 2011-07-20 15:39:35 <BlueMatt> not sure about nvidia, but if you are looking at mining, you probably dont care about nvidia
1588 2011-07-20 15:39:40 <WakiMiko_> i dont even know what the 2nd clue is, i only see the one about your dns server
1589 2011-07-20 15:40:01 <Eliel_> has there been any talk about moving transaction storage to a DHT based system? As in, keeping block headers locally everywhere but decentralizing the storage of the transaction data?
1590 2011-07-20 15:40:01 <BlueMatt> ah, ok nvm
1591 2011-07-20 15:40:11 <ProgramMax> well, I'm interested in generalizing gpgpu
1592 2011-07-20 15:40:53 Burgundy has quit (Client Quit)
1593 2011-07-20 15:40:59 <cjdelisle> Eliel_: not much but I happen to like DHTs, not to mention a DHT could do introductions and we could dump the goodie IRC based thing.
1594 2011-07-20 15:41:11 <cjdelisle> *goofie
1595 2011-07-20 15:42:25 <cjdelisle> I think the problem with DHTs is that when you get paid, you check the inputs to the transaction, then for each of them you get all the inputs and so on... pretty soon you're downloading so much that you might aswell just have the whole chain.
1596 2011-07-20 15:43:12 <Eliel_> you mean, the client really does check the whole chain up to the creation of the coin?
1597 2011-07-20 15:43:37 topace has joined
1598 2011-07-20 15:44:00 <cjdelisle> oh ic, because it is in the chain you just trust that it is true?
1599 2011-07-20 15:44:22 <cjdelisle> rather than following it back to where your payment began...
1600 2011-07-20 15:44:57 <Eliel_> I thought you just check one level :)
1601 2011-07-20 15:45:13 <cjdelisle> that'd work.
1602 2011-07-20 15:45:57 <Eliel_> no need to keep checking the old ones. That should be done when the block is first received.
1603 2011-07-20 15:46:20 <cjdelisle> Also you could be dirty and ship some checkpoint hashes with the code so clients wouldn't always have to download the entire chain of headers too.
1604 2011-07-20 15:47:48 <Eliel_> I was thinking that people running nodes could set limits on the amount of disk space the node will use for storing transactions and the node would dynamically pick a range to handle so it keeps to the limit.
1605 2011-07-20 15:48:30 <cjdelisle> hmm
1606 2011-07-20 15:48:34 <Eliel_> that way, someone who actually needs all the data locally for whatever reason could just run a node with _huge_ limits.
1607 2011-07-20 15:49:00 <cjdelisle> yea, it'd still be nice to have a "public archive" of everything somewhere.
1608 2011-07-20 15:49:33 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1610 2011-07-20 15:49:39 <Eliel_> yes, but that's not really something to burden the main network with I think.
1611 2011-07-20 15:50:35 <cjdelisle> hmm I have the beginnings of a dht get/put specification too
1612 2011-07-20 15:50:40 <Eliel_> the main network will have to stop caring about the past data anyway once we have to migrate to another hashing algorithm when sha256 ends up too broken
1613 2011-07-20 15:51:01 <cjdelisle> hehe umad government :P
1614 2011-07-20 15:51:34 <cjdelisle> feel bad for the X509 people because that will ruin their stuff.
1615 2011-07-20 15:51:37 <Eliel_> sorry, I'm unfamiliar with "umad government" :)
1616 2011-07-20 15:52:16 <forrestv> do any miners not pay attention to the target in the getwork method and just send all H==0 shares
1617 2011-07-20 15:52:43 <cjdelisle> "umad" -> "you mad?" US gov uses sha256 for all their sensitive stuff and btc has created an incentive to break it.
1618 2011-07-20 15:53:07 <Eliel_> forrestv: I suggest to assume some don't and handle it gracefully in p2ppool.
1619 2011-07-20 15:53:19 <Eliel_> perhaps issue rejects for the ones that don't.
1620 2011-07-20 15:53:26 <Eliel_> that should let the miner know something's off
1621 2011-07-20 15:53:33 <forrestv> Eliel_, :) good idea
1622 2011-07-20 15:54:07 <cjdelisle> https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/rfcs/DHTStore.txt
1623 2011-07-20 15:54:16 <Eliel_> less effort to handle it than to find out :)
1624 2011-07-20 15:54:39 <cjdelisle> there's a nice generic load/store protocol spec suggestion
1625 2011-07-20 15:54:45 <upb> DHT is cool, its webscale
1626 2011-07-20 15:54:48 eianpsego has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1627 2011-07-20 15:55:56 VastLite_ has joined
1628 2011-07-20 15:56:20 <Eliel_> cjdelisle: I wonder if that is too generic. That'd basically allow people to use this DHT for storing anything at all
1629 2011-07-20 15:56:22 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1630 2011-07-20 15:56:36 <Eliel_> well, not that it's easily preventable in any case but...
1631 2011-07-20 15:56:53 <cjdelisle> Yea, it was not developed for bitcoin. I dev'd it for generic storage for the bittorrent dht
1632 2011-07-20 15:57:03 <Eliel_> makes sense :)
1633 2011-07-20 15:57:25 <cjdelisle> IMO one dht is better than many
1634 2011-07-20 15:57:45 <cjdelisle> It would be nice if a btc node could bootstrap off of a bittorrent node.
1635 2011-07-20 15:57:51 <Eliel_> agreed... but that means it should be separate from bitcoin, even if bitcoin then uses it.
1636 2011-07-20 15:58:34 blzp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1637 2011-07-20 15:58:36 VastLite has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1641 2011-07-20 15:59:26 <cjdelisle> Fixing kadimilla is also on my todo list, it's not mathmaticly pure as it stands. There's a long comment in an unwritten .c file somewhere in there about houw it `should' work :)
1642 2011-07-20 16:00:05 danbri is now known as olddanbri
1643 2011-07-20 16:00:15 danbri has joined
1644 2011-07-20 16:00:15 <Eliel_> however, for keeping potential legal trouble away from bitcoin as much as possible (like that is possible :P), I'd prefer a more limited DHT for transaction data that would use the existing bitcoin protocol for getting the input data.
1645 2011-07-20 16:00:19 zeropointo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1646 2011-07-20 16:00:53 <cjdelisle> What's your concern?
1647 2011-07-20 16:01:17 <Eliel_> keep the copyright trolls away from attacking bitcoin :P
1648 2011-07-20 16:01:56 <cjdelisle> IMO if you're worried about legal issues for using the same protocol as bittorrent then you've already lost.
1649 2011-07-20 16:02:07 kytibe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1650 2011-07-20 16:02:23 <BlueMatt> its no where near the same proto as bittorrent
1651 2011-07-20 16:02:25 Titeuf_87 has joined
1652 2011-07-20 16:02:25 jackmcbarn has joined
1653 2011-07-20 16:02:30 <BlueMatt> saying that is just fucking stupid
1654 2011-07-20 16:02:38 <cjdelisle> scroll up
1655 2011-07-20 16:03:15 * BlueMatt feels stupid
1656 2011-07-20 16:03:19 <Eliel_> cjdelisle: I'm not concerned about the protocol as it is. I'd just prefer to keep it from happening that the copyright trolls would get excuses to send lawsuit threats to people running bitcoin nodes.
1657 2011-07-20 16:03:30 <BlueMatt> in any case, dht is still separate from bittorrent
1658 2011-07-20 16:03:52 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: exactly how are "copyright trolls" going to have excuses to send lawsuit threats to people running bitcoin nodes?
1659 2011-07-20 16:04:08 redhatzero has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1660 2011-07-20 16:04:10 <BlueMatt> and why do people keep saying bootstrap bitcoin from dht, you still have to bootstrap the dht
1661 2011-07-20 16:04:19 quiccker has joined
1662 2011-07-20 16:04:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: easily sue mtgox out of existence?
1663 2011-07-20 16:04:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: just use a DHT to bootstrap the dht!!!one!
1664 2011-07-20 16:04:36 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1665 2011-07-20 16:04:41 <gmaxwell> Perhaps I'm missing some context here.
1666 2011-07-20 16:04:50 <BlueMatt> I probably am too
1667 2011-07-20 16:05:03 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: we're discussing the possibility of moving bitcoin transaction storage into at DHT based network.
1668 2011-07-20 16:05:15 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: _Why?_
1669 2011-07-20 16:05:23 <Eliel_> and cjdelisle had a readymade generic DHT proposal
1670 2011-07-20 16:05:25 <gmaxwell> Full nodes must see all the transactions.
1671 2011-07-20 16:05:27 <Eliel_> which I was commenting on
1672 2011-07-20 16:05:42 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: precisely, but not all the time.
1673 2011-07-20 16:06:04 <Eliel_> the block headers would need storing on all nodes, naturally, though.
1674 2011-07-20 16:06:43 dbitcoin has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1675 2011-07-20 16:06:56 <gmaxwell> Full nodes actually have to see all of the transactions.
1676 2011-07-20 16:07:18 <gmaxwell> Not just on request, but they must see all of them in order to exclude the possiblity of conflicting transaction in the blockchain.
1677 2011-07-20 16:07:45 <iddo> gmaxwell: i think that we were wrong yesterday regarding deterministic wallet type-2
1678 2011-07-20 16:08:08 <cjdelisle> My feeling: A. DHT can store and retreive things (like parts of a block chain) which might be nice in the future B. IRC based introduction is goofie, it's a point of failure and it makes btc look like it was written by amitures which couldn't be further from the truth.
1679 2011-07-20 16:08:15 <iddo> it's not trivial to prove that it secure as single instance of ECDSA
1680 2011-07-20 16:08:27 <BlueMatt> we are moving off of irc rapidly
1681 2011-07-20 16:08:38 <cjdelisle> cool
1682 2011-07-20 16:08:44 <iddo> it's true that you can generate as many pubkeys as you'd like without security risk
1683 2011-07-20 16:09:14 <iddo> but when you actually use the private keys to sign, there might be a related keys attack
1684 2011-07-20 16:09:29 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1685 2011-07-20 16:09:31 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: bootstrapping is pretty much orthorgonal
1686 2011-07-20 16:09:55 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1687 2011-07-20 16:09:56 <iddo> so the pubkeys aren't the problem, but the signed messages are
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1690 2011-07-20 16:11:10 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: if you implement the DHT to divide the transactions, not based on the transaction id but rather the account id (160 bit number), you could retrieve all transactions to/from a certain address in one query.
1691 2011-07-20 16:11:22 <gmaxwell> iddo: I wondered if you'd catch me on that. In any case, the adjustments still span the entire space of private keys, but its true that doesn't allow you to assume H() is weak.
1692 2011-07-20 16:11:29 <Eliel_> ... although... oh right, there's no way to be sure the node gave you all of them.
1693 2011-07-20 16:11:46 <iddo> gmaxwell: is deterministic wallet type-2 your own idea? or did it come from some article? i've never seen this kind of homomorphic pk/sk relation, usually homomorphic encryption is regarding the encrypted msgs
1694 2011-07-20 16:11:47 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: Account? You're assuming all transactions are somehow assigned to "accounts". They aren't.
1695 2011-07-20 16:12:18 <gmaxwell> iddo: It's my own idea.
1696 2011-07-20 16:12:46 <Eliel_> oh... true, the script thing does complicate it a lot.
1697 2011-07-20 16:12:54 <BlueMatt> there is no reason to use a dht to store transactions, it just doesnt make sense
1698 2011-07-20 16:13:23 <BlueMatt> one of the requirements of a bitcoin is that all nodes have the exact same data, with a dht...
1699 2011-07-20 16:13:42 <BlueMatt> otherwise you can double spend like crazy
1700 2011-07-20 16:14:24 <cjdelisle> It makes sense if the chain is larger than anyone's hard disk and people might still need any given part of it. Obviously the algo doesn't support that now but it will become more interesting when the chain is 30GB
1701 2011-07-20 16:14:31 <gmaxwell> iddo: thought it basically works like ECDH fundimentally.
1702 2011-07-20 16:14:37 <iddo> gmaxwell: you should ask for some crypto peer review of this idea before implementing it into the official client, or for smartphones etc., i think that it should be ok assuming no funny business in the random behavior of the hash function, but others might know something i don't...
1703 2011-07-20 16:15:01 <iddo> if you google aes related key attack, there's bad news...
1704 2011-07-20 16:15:09 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: no at no point did anyone say all bitcoin nodes needed the blockchain
1705 2011-07-20 16:15:26 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: even 1tb is nothing in 3 years
1706 2011-07-20 16:15:38 <gmaxwell> Right, lite nodes are light notes.
1707 2011-07-20 16:15:57 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: are there theoretical calculations on how big the blockchain could grow?
1708 2011-07-20 16:16:08 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: no the chain should never hit 1tb
1709 2011-07-20 16:16:11 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: false NAK is really severe too, since if I false NAK a prior spend of an input, then you could validate a respend and everything breaks.
1710 2011-07-20 16:16:23 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: Im just saying if you say the blockchain will grow to the point of absurdity, its still not a problem
1711 2011-07-20 16:17:11 <gmaxwell> Well, with the current software limits the blockchain could reach 1TB in 20 years.
1712 2011-07-20 16:17:25 <gmaxwell> If every block were maximum size.
1713 2011-07-20 16:17:37 <BlueMatt> and in 3 you wont be able to find a harddrive less than 1tb
1714 2011-07-20 16:17:40 <AndyBr> i wonder how much disk space a laptop has in 20 years :)
1715 2011-07-20 16:17:43 <iddo> i looked at ECDH on wikipedia now, looks similar to regular DH, so i dont think the same security concern, in DH you can agree on any new secret with completely new randomness
1716 2011-07-20 16:18:51 <gmaxwell> iddo: people use ECDH without new random keys in each event, see for example DJB's secure dns stuff.
1717 2011-07-20 16:19:04 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: yes, I'm convinced, for now anyway, that DHT won't work.
1718 2011-07-20 16:19:10 <gmaxwell> (static keys per parties)
1719 2011-07-20 16:19:30 <gmaxwell> Eliel_: not only will it not work, it wouldn't actually do anything all that important if it did.
1720 2011-07-20 16:20:03 <gmaxwell> You can have not all the information without having a DHT, so long as the density of available copies is high (which it must be for security)
1721 2011-07-20 16:20:04 <iddo> but maybe they dont require same level of security as bitcoin, at least there should be a disclaimer that deterministic wallet isn't provenly as secure
1722 2011-07-20 16:20:25 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1723 2011-07-20 16:20:47 <gmaxwell> iddo: That might matter if it actually existed.
1724 2011-07-20 16:21:09 <gmaxwell> (well, other than some test code that I'm not going to bother releasing)
1725 2011-07-20 16:21:55 <iddo> gmaxwell: the main thing that concerns me regarding security is this pk/sk homomorphic relation that i've never seen before, google doesnt return any results when i search for it... so there might be something fishy with this type-2 that i'm unaware of
1726 2011-07-20 16:22:47 <gmaxwell> As I said, it's the same homomorphic relation that makes ecdh work.
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1728 2011-07-20 16:23:35 <iddo> ok but there you only use it once
1729 2011-07-20 16:23:41 <gmaxwell> No, you don't!
1730 2011-07-20 16:24:10 <iddo> oh
1731 2011-07-20 16:24:21 <iddo> ok i'll look at ecdh again
1732 2011-07-20 16:24:34 <gmaxwell> ECDH is also used with static keys, e.g. you have iddo key and I have gmaxwell key, and BlueMatt has BlueMatt key and we can all come up with unique secrets.
1733 2011-07-20 16:25:03 <gmaxwell> This is how DNSCurve works and other systems as well.
1734 2011-07-20 16:25:21 Teslah has joined
1735 2011-07-20 16:25:25 <cjdelisle> DH is pretty simple, DSA not so much
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1737 2011-07-20 16:25:56 <gmaxwell> iddo: of course, caution is always advisable. I'm just pointing out that its a property which has been evaluated.
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1739 2011-07-20 16:27:01 <iddo> i only looked at wikipedia, again it seems similar to regular DH, when i said you only use it once, i mean that you only generate a single private key, unlike type-2 wallet where you generate many related private keys
1740 2011-07-20 16:27:46 <cjdelisle> Is there a writeup on this type2?
1741 2011-07-20 16:28:07 <iddo> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1742 2011-07-20 16:28:15 <gmaxwell> iddo: Well, then wikipedia is incomplet.
1743 2011-07-20 16:28:18 <gmaxwell> er incomplete.
1744 2011-07-20 16:28:19 <b4epoche> caution is always advisable <-- yes, being homophobic is good
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1746 2011-07-20 16:28:33 <BlueMatt> iddo: I will stab you
1747 2011-07-20 16:28:40 <gmaxwell> iddo: oh, no its not.
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1749 2011-07-20 16:28:58 <gmaxwell> iddo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman "The public keys are either static (and trusted, say via a certificate) or ephemeral."
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1753 2011-07-20 16:30:02 <copumpkin> omg I heard the word homomorphic in here
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1755 2011-07-20 16:30:34 <gmaxwell> iddo: and authenticated, static keys are part of NIST 800-56A
1756 2011-07-20 16:31:01 <iddo> why do you need to generate more than one key for ecdh ?
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1758 2011-07-20 16:32:38 <gmaxwell> iddo: Hm?
1759 2011-07-20 16:34:22 <gmaxwell> iddo: each party has a key. By combining your public key and their private key, and their public key and your private key, each party effectively finds a new public key with the same value due to the homomorphic relation over the point.
1760 2011-07-20 16:36:10 <iddo> ok so that is the shared secret
1761 2011-07-20 16:37:04 <iddo> but if you want another shared secret, you can pick new random pk+sk, why derive them from the old values?
1762 2011-07-20 16:37:13 <cjdelisle> That looks to be involved enough that I would expect to see a peer reviewed paper before I wanted to use it.
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1765 2011-07-20 16:38:18 <gmaxwell> iddo: Because you need to autheticate the parties, so it can be useful to use persistent identities.
1766 2011-07-20 16:38:55 <iddo> ok
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1768 2011-07-20 16:39:24 <gmaxwell> iddo: e.g. you and I trying to get a new key wouldn't use the same values (that wouldn't work!), but we might each use the same keys to establish keying with many other parties.
1769 2011-07-20 16:41:32 <iddo> the wikipedia article mentions that there's no forward secrecy
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1771 2011-07-20 16:42:57 <cjdelisle> I don't quite understand why that is better than just using a random number generator, you can save the seed in your offline wallet and save the generator's current state on your webserver.
1772 2011-07-20 16:43:50 <iddo> it's better because you can generate new public keys without knowing the private key
1773 2011-07-20 16:44:44 <iddo> we are debating whether you can prove that it is at least as secure as breaking a single instance of ECDSA
1774 2011-07-20 16:44:59 <cjdelisle> I see
1775 2011-07-20 16:45:12 <iddo> cjdelisle: with what you suggest we also cannot prove that it is as secure
1776 2011-07-20 16:45:52 leo has joined
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1778 2011-07-20 16:46:59 <iddo> i remember that older version of GPG had some insecure derivation function for a secure pubkey, maybe ElGamal, so these ideas can be risky...
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1781 2011-07-20 16:47:17 <leo> Hi peope, anyone know how to fix the problem described by Leo on this irc log: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/07/20/1
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1800 2011-07-20 17:09:57 Ramen has joined
1801 2011-07-20 17:10:11 <Ramen> ;;bc,stats
1802 2011-07-20 17:10:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137213 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 1890 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1637190.91352553
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1808 2011-07-20 17:23:06 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
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1810 2011-07-20 17:23:25 <b4epoche> why do people come in here and just ask gribble for crap?
1811 2011-07-20 17:23:48 <b4epoche> Ramen: you got developer stuff to talk about?
1812 2011-07-20 17:24:05 sacredchao has joined
1813 2011-07-20 17:24:05 pusle has joined
1814 2011-07-20 17:24:32 <Ramen> cause bot hasn't been on mining lol
1815 2011-07-20 17:24:46 <b4epoche> lrn2pm
1816 2011-07-20 17:25:23 <Ramen> could you devs teach me how to do that?
1817 2011-07-20 17:25:52 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1818 2011-07-20 17:26:22 <b4epoche> /msg gribble ;;bc,stats
1819 2011-07-20 17:27:39 <Ramen> wow thats pretty cool
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1824 2011-07-20 17:43:51 <witkamp> does any one know the reason the boost serialization was not used in bitcoin?
1825 2011-07-20 17:45:35 BTCTrader_away is now known as BTCTrader_
1826 2011-07-20 17:46:52 <erus`> because JSON
1827 2011-07-20 17:47:02 <erus`> because fuck you thats why
1828 2011-07-20 17:47:09 <witkamp> nice
1829 2011-07-20 17:47:34 <erus`> in the friendliest way possible
1830 2011-07-20 17:47:35 <witkamp> is that they only reason?
1831 2011-07-20 17:47:40 LightRider has joined
1832 2011-07-20 17:47:45 <witkamp> I appreciate that
1833 2011-07-20 17:48:05 <witkamp> you make me laugh erus
1834 2011-07-20 17:48:22 <bd_> witkamp: boost serialization's format is not very well documented, and so it's not a very nice thing to use when you're making a to-be standard
1835 2011-07-20 17:48:24 <witkamp> keep it up
1836 2011-07-20 17:48:57 <witkamp> very true
1837 2011-07-20 17:49:03 <bd_> witkamp: I also believe boost serialization's formats allow multiple representations of the same data (whitespace differences? type tags?), which is a problem, because bitcoin relies on a deserialized and reserialized data structure hashing to the same value
1838 2011-07-20 17:49:06 <upb> because its fucking l33t to roll your own coIntainers + serialization code
1839 2011-07-20 17:49:13 <upb> also your own locking
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1841 2011-07-20 17:49:40 <bd_> this, incidentally, rules out protocol buffers as well - protobufs are not sensitive to element ordering
1842 2011-07-20 17:50:17 <witkamp> did not know that about pb
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1845 2011-07-20 17:51:39 <kokjo> why does blocks include whole transactions instead of only a hash of the transaction? it really sucks when you are writing a alt. client. and also why can't i not request 'old' transactions with a getdata?
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1847 2011-07-20 17:56:19 <GMP> i bet inability to get 'buried' transactions is show-stopper for lightweight clients
1848 2011-07-20 17:57:08 <GMP> should be fixed asap, am i wrong?
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1854 2011-07-20 17:58:48 <kokjo> GMP: i think it is a show stopper. :( and i think it should be fixed, but i don't know, maybe there is a reason for it...
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1861 2011-07-20 18:08:42 Incitatus has joined
1862 2011-07-20 18:09:11 <Incitatus> hey tcatm, why does it say wire for Intersango it should say SEPA and wire
1863 2011-07-20 18:10:04 <Incitatus> there is a small fee for the SEPA 1.25euros but it's also a free service but writing wire instead of SEPA is misleading
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1865 2011-07-20 18:10:28 <Incitatus> we do also accept wires though
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1868 2011-07-20 18:11:18 <tcatm> Incitatus: you didn't provide any information so I just copied it from the britcoin entry
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1872 2011-07-20 18:13:36 <osmosis> are there any limits for -maxconnections ? How high can I set it?
1873 2011-07-20 18:15:00 <BlueMatt> yes there are, but I dont remember what it is
1874 2011-07-20 18:15:10 <BlueMatt> probably like 1024 or something...
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1878 2011-07-20 18:19:23 <osmosis> BlueMatt, i have it set at 256. Connections is 49 right now. As far as my hardware and pipe, only at 1% utilization.
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1881 2011-07-20 18:20:21 <BlueMatt> well you cant control number of incoming connections, add your node to ,,(bc,wiki Fallback Nodes)
1882 2011-07-20 18:20:22 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes | Fallback Nodes. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search. This is a list of nodes which are considered reliable. Nodes from this list which are down for ...
1883 2011-07-20 18:24:07 <osmosis> what are iptransactions? should I enable the cmd line flag?
1884 2011-07-20 18:24:19 <BlueMatt> no
1885 2011-07-20 18:24:30 <BlueMatt> they are terribly insecure
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1888 2011-07-20 18:25:08 <eianpsego> If I want to see transaction data across the network, do I need to rewrite the client? Should I use tcpdump? Is there some tool that does this already?
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1891 2011-07-20 18:25:22 <eianpsego> I want to see the transaction details in real-time
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1894 2011-07-20 18:26:02 <osmosis> BlueMatt, ip added to wiki
1895 2011-07-20 18:26:08 <Eliel_> kokjo: the blocks contain the transactions as a merkle tree. Meaning, if you don't need the transactions, you can just leave them out.
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1899 2011-07-20 18:28:45 <leo> hi, can someone using debian wheezy post your bitcoin config file on pastebin: http://pastebin.com/ (without password ofcourse)
1900 2011-07-20 18:29:14 <upb> did you strace it to see what its trying to bind() ?
1901 2011-07-20 18:29:27 <kokjo> Eliel_: i know that, but why does every block transfer all its transactions, its a waste of bandwidth, and a pain in the ass, when you are wrting a alt. client. you can't also not download 'old' txs, you are forced to download the whole blocks.
1902 2011-07-20 18:29:55 <leo> upb: I did the command you wrote here, but the result is an out.txt without information
1903 2011-07-20 18:30:01 <Eliel_> isn't there a request type for just the block headers?
1904 2011-07-20 18:30:18 <leo> could you?
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1906 2011-07-20 18:30:20 <leo> upb: tell me the exactly command again
1907 2011-07-20 18:30:22 <Eliel_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#getheaders
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1909 2011-07-20 18:31:29 <kokjo> Eliel_: yes there is, but im not insterested on the blocks, only the transactions
1910 2011-07-20 18:31:59 <Eliel_> kokjo: you need the block headers if you're interested in verifying that the transactions are valid
1911 2011-07-20 18:33:21 <kokjo> Eliel_: i know that, but why can't i download separate 'old' txs?
1912 2011-07-20 18:33:55 <Eliel_> kokjo: that I have no idea about, unfortunately. I'm actually wondering myself why that kind of request is not possible.
1913 2011-07-20 18:34:07 <Eliel_> (or at least, not documented on the wiki)
1914 2011-07-20 18:34:11 <Joric> BlueMatt, looks like your dns servers show different ip's, and the site is inaccesible with 50% probability, check he.net
1915 2011-07-20 18:34:23 <Joric> also i hate telnets
1916 2011-07-20 18:34:29 arthurb_ has joined
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1918 2011-07-20 18:34:39 <BlueMatt> Joric: which dns servers? you mean the ones for bluematt.me?
1919 2011-07-20 18:34:39 <Eliel_> oh wait, maybe getdata will get you a transaction?
1920 2011-07-20 18:34:48 <Joric> BlueMatt, yep
1921 2011-07-20 18:35:21 arthurb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1922 2011-07-20 18:35:30 <lianj> Eliel_: try it. didnt work for me on old txs. i had to fetch the block
1923 2011-07-20 18:35:35 <BlueMatt> Joric: which ones are down?
1924 2011-07-20 18:35:41 <BlueMatt> Joric: they all work for me
1925 2011-07-20 18:35:46 <Joric> 87.155.81.205 wont open here
1926 2011-07-20 18:35:57 <lianj> Eliel_: although ppl said is should work :D
1927 2011-07-20 18:36:06 <BlueMatt> Joric: thats not one of the nameservers
1928 2011-07-20 18:36:06 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1929 2011-07-20 18:36:18 <Eliel_> lianj: I don't have a test mechanism handy :P
1930 2011-07-20 18:36:24 <kokjo> Eliel_: no it will not, i do requesting a missing tx, but i does not receiver it. i receive 'new' txs
1931 2011-07-20 18:36:29 stuhood has joined
1932 2011-07-20 18:36:53 <Joric> that's the ip i'm getting from he.net
1933 2011-07-20 18:36:55 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1934 2011-07-20 18:37:02 stuhood has left ()
1935 2011-07-20 18:37:06 <BlueMatt> Joric: that is the ip of bluematt.me, not its nameservers
1936 2011-07-20 18:37:10 knotwork has joined
1937 2011-07-20 18:37:19 <Joric> sure i don't need their ip
1938 2011-07-20 18:37:32 <BlueMatt> why does it matter if bluematt.me is down?
1939 2011-07-20 18:37:45 <Joric> i don't care
1940 2011-07-20 18:37:57 <BlueMatt> Joric: also, thats not the ip Im getting from my nameservers
1941 2011-07-20 18:38:06 <BlueMatt> they are all giving 62.155.230.118
1942 2011-07-20 18:38:33 <kokjo> Eliel_: every time i get a 'inv', of a tx i don't know yet, i 'getdata' it, and im shortly after 'tx' with the tx in it. BUT when i request a old tx, i don't get it.
1943 2011-07-20 18:39:02 <lianj> kokjo: same here
1944 2011-07-20 18:39:09 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: should getdata give old txs too?
1945 2011-07-20 18:39:45 <BlueMatt> check the wiki
1946 2011-07-20 18:39:52 <Eliel_> doesn't specify
1947 2011-07-20 18:40:17 <lianj> maybe it should. but i doesnt. i noticed that some week ago
1948 2011-07-20 18:40:21 <lianj> *it
1949 2011-07-20 18:40:21 <GMP> "getdata is used in response to inv" unfortunately
1950 2011-07-20 18:40:51 <Eliel_> so, you'd perhaps have to get an inv advertising the transaction first somehow?
1951 2011-07-20 18:41:33 <lianj> you have to fetch the block
1952 2011-07-20 18:42:04 <leo> upb: Hi, i run the command strace bitcoind and the result is here http://pastebin.com/C5UKuyei
1953 2011-07-20 18:42:13 <kokjo> that just sucks. :( sadly, well my client will response with old transactions, on 'getdata'. therefor my client is better then the official bitcoin client :P
1954 2011-07-20 18:42:20 <leo> upb: does this means anithing?
1955 2011-07-20 18:42:28 <GMP> but.. which block? there is no way to know upfront
1956 2011-07-20 18:42:46 <lianj> kokjo: hehe, yea same here too xD
1957 2011-07-20 18:43:13 PPilate has joined
1958 2011-07-20 18:43:17 <Eliel_> you could make the change in bitcoin client source and make a pull request, maybe?
1959 2011-07-20 18:43:40 <Eliel_> unless there is some reason to not give individual transaction data that easily.
1960 2011-07-20 18:44:01 <kokjo> Eliel_: none that i can think of.
1961 2011-07-20 18:44:07 PPilate is now known as Pilate
1962 2011-07-20 18:44:22 liltoe has joined
1963 2011-07-20 18:44:35 <Eliel_> lianj, kokjo: what client(s) are you working on?
1964 2011-07-20 18:45:41 <leo> Hi people, I'm trying to run bitcoin on debian wheezy but the program doesn't start. I run the command strace bitcoind and the result is here: http://pastebin.com/C5UKuyei Anyone can find any good information that help to solve the problem?
1965 2011-07-20 18:46:15 olddanbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1966 2011-07-20 18:47:12 <lianj> Eliel_: mine is a ruby one, more of a lib to build services on than a client
1967 2011-07-20 18:49:30 <kokjo> a heavily modified version pycoin.
1968 2011-07-20 18:49:42 <kokjo> *of pycoin
1969 2011-07-20 18:50:17 karnac has joined
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1971 2011-07-20 18:50:56 <GMP> leo: maybe exception is in child process? try strace -f
1972 2011-07-20 18:51:36 <leo> GMP: strace -f bitcoind ? will try
1973 2011-07-20 18:51:52 erus` has joined
1974 2011-07-20 18:51:56 <upb> yeah really weird i dont see anything that could trigger the exception
1975 2011-07-20 18:52:01 <upb> there is no failing bind()
1976 2011-07-20 18:52:16 wardearia has joined
1977 2011-07-20 18:53:10 <leo> GMP: strace -f bitcoind http://pastebin.com/pb3pktJ1
1978 2011-07-20 18:54:02 <upb> [pid 13932] bind(15, {sa_family=AF_INET, sin_port=htons(8332), sin_addr=inet_addr("127.0.0.1")}, 16) = -1 EADDRNOTAVAIL (Cannot assign requested address)
1979 2011-07-20 18:55:24 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1980 2011-07-20 18:56:25 <upb> do you have the address 127.0.0.1 on an interface ?:P
1981 2011-07-20 18:56:42 <upb> type ip addr ls lo
1982 2011-07-20 18:56:51 cypher5001 has joined
1983 2011-07-20 18:56:56 <leo> one minute
1984 2011-07-20 18:57:10 <leo> leonardo@debian:~$ ip addr ls lo 1: lo: <LOOPBACK> mtu 16436 qdisc noop state DOWN link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
1985 2011-07-20 18:57:29 <upb> see thats the problem
1986 2011-07-20 18:57:37 <upb> you have fucked up your system why is lo down
1987 2011-07-20 18:58:05 <leo> hum, what i did wrong? and how to fix
1988 2011-07-20 19:00:15 <upb> well you have meddled with interfaces file
1989 2011-07-20 19:00:28 <upb> type ifup lo
1990 2011-07-20 19:00:34 <upb> but it will be screwed on reboot i think
1991 2011-07-20 19:01:02 larsivi has joined
1992 2011-07-20 19:01:35 <leo> upb: leonardo@debian:~$ ifup lo bash: ifup: comando não encontrado leonardo@debian:~$
1993 2011-07-20 19:01:35 <leo> command not found
1994 2011-07-20 19:02:07 <upb> type it as root
1995 2011-07-20 19:02:21 <leo> one minute
1996 2011-07-20 19:02:24 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1997 2011-07-20 19:02:45 <leo> upb: leonardo@debian:~$ sudo ifup lo [sudo] password for leonardo: Ignoring unknown interface lo=lo. leonardo@debian:~$
1998 2011-07-20 19:03:07 <upb> reinstall :)
1999 2011-07-20 19:03:18 <lianj> ^^
2000 2011-07-20 19:03:19 <diki> man my stomach's full
2001 2011-07-20 19:03:25 <diki> i ate the whole bread i just bought
2002 2011-07-20 19:03:25 <leo> upb: reinstall what?
2003 2011-07-20 19:03:30 <upb> or read this http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch05.en.html
2004 2011-07-20 19:03:34 <diki> no one can beat me when eating
2005 2011-07-20 19:04:26 <leo> upb: you mean reinstall debian?
2006 2011-07-20 19:04:31 <leo> upb: sorry my english is not good
2007 2011-07-20 19:05:06 <upb> yes if you dont know how to fix it, the best way is to reinstall it
2008 2011-07-20 19:05:21 <upb> and dont change random stuff
2009 2011-07-20 19:05:31 <leo> hehe
2010 2011-07-20 19:06:09 candyman has joined
2011 2011-07-20 19:06:19 <leo> upb: I'll go to debian irc and how the result of the command ip addr ls lo
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2019 2011-07-20 19:11:35 <Eliel_> leo: can you point me to a fast way to install wheezy? I'll try if the problem exists on a fresh installation.
2020 2011-07-20 19:12:25 <leo> Eliel_ people say works ok on fresh instakll
2021 2011-07-20 19:12:39 <leo> my interface file has no information= blank
2022 2011-07-20 19:12:45 <upb> lol
2023 2011-07-20 19:13:34 <upb> add this:
2024 2011-07-20 19:13:34 <upb> auto lo
2025 2011-07-20 19:13:34 <upb> iface lo inet loopback
2026 2011-07-20 19:13:38 <upb> and then type ifup lo
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2030 2011-07-20 19:15:27 asuk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2031 2011-07-20 19:15:29 <lianj> df -h
2032 2011-07-20 19:15:42 <lianj> ups
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2036 2011-07-20 19:18:48 <leo> upb: I added some info on interface file. Debian people told and run sudo ifup -a
2037 2011-07-20 19:19:06 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2038 2011-07-20 19:19:48 <upb> yeah
2039 2011-07-20 19:19:55 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2040 2011-07-20 19:20:03 <leo> upb: tried to load bitcoind and now I don't see any error, but program doesn't start
2041 2011-07-20 19:20:12 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2042 2011-07-20 19:20:23 <upb> so this one problem is fixed :)
2043 2011-07-20 19:20:32 <leo> upb: nothing happens
2044 2011-07-20 19:20:44 <kokjo> hell the original bitcoin client is messy, ugly, bloated, can't stand reading the code!
2045 2011-07-20 19:20:45 <leo> upb: yes
2046 2011-07-20 19:21:13 wolfspraul has joined
2047 2011-07-20 19:21:21 <leo> upb: now i the program need to start, hehe
2048 2011-07-20 19:21:38 <AlonzoTG> Has anyone written anything about the internal structure of the bitcoin daemon?
2049 2011-07-20 19:22:17 wolfspraul has quit (Client Quit)
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2051 2011-07-20 19:22:30 <leo> upb: bitcoind appear on system monitor
2052 2011-07-20 19:23:43 <leo> upb: but no program window show
2053 2011-07-20 19:23:52 <Eliel_> leo: bitcoind naturally won't start a window
2054 2011-07-20 19:23:54 <kokjo> AlonzoTG:i don't think so.
2055 2011-07-20 19:23:55 <upb> bitcoinD doesnt have one
2056 2011-07-20 19:24:01 <Eliel_> if you want program window, run bitcoin
2057 2011-07-20 19:24:09 <leo> hehe
2058 2011-07-20 19:24:12 <leo> will try
2059 2011-07-20 19:24:24 <Eliel_> but shut the bitcoind down first
2060 2011-07-20 19:24:43 <leo> leonardo@debian:~$ bitcoin bash: bitcoin: comando não encontrado leonardo@debian:~$
2061 2011-07-20 19:24:53 <leo> command not found
2062 2011-07-20 19:25:09 <Eliel_> leo: how did you get bitcoind to work then?
2063 2011-07-20 19:25:40 <Eliel_> basically, copy the bitcoin excutable to the same place you copied bitcoind into.
2064 2011-07-20 19:25:41 <leo> Eliel_ I installed bitcoind from debian repository
2065 2011-07-20 19:26:03 <Eliel_> ok, two things. One, make sure it's .24 version.
2066 2011-07-20 19:26:15 <Eliel_> if not, get the latest from the official site.
2067 2011-07-20 19:26:20 <leo> Eliel_: I installed bitcoind from debian repository
2068 2011-07-20 19:26:22 <leo> yes it is
2069 2011-07-20 19:26:33 <Eliel_> two, if it is, see if there's another bitcoin package
2070 2011-07-20 19:26:48 <leo> on repository no
2071 2011-07-20 19:26:52 <leo> I'll show you the link
2072 2011-07-20 19:26:56 knotwork has joined
2073 2011-07-20 19:27:04 <Eliel_> I'll take a look at the package, moment
2074 2011-07-20 19:27:55 <Eliel_> interesting... looks like the GUI version is not packaged
2075 2011-07-20 19:28:20 <leo> http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/bitcoin
2076 2011-07-20 19:29:06 <Eliel_> if you want gui, looks like you have to install the package from www.bitcoin.org
2077 2011-07-20 19:29:17 <leo> hum
2078 2011-07-20 19:29:36 <Eliel_> alternatively, install one of the alternate guis, like spesmilo
2079 2011-07-20 19:29:43 <Eliel_> those work with bitcoind
2080 2011-07-20 19:29:53 <leo> ok
2081 2011-07-20 19:29:54 <leo> thanks
2082 2011-07-20 19:31:24 leo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2086 2011-07-20 19:37:32 <AlonzoTG> I am worried.
2087 2011-07-20 19:37:35 <AlonzoTG> =(
2088 2011-07-20 19:38:05 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2089 2011-07-20 19:38:07 dedeibel has joined
2090 2011-07-20 19:38:27 <AlonzoTG> Why are people jumping into Bitcoin to the tune of 100 megaclams while, at the same time, expressing little interest in how the code it is based on works and proving that it is correct and reliable.
2091 2011-07-20 19:39:33 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2092 2011-07-20 19:39:40 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2093 2011-07-20 19:39:49 <copumpkin> proving correct, eh!
2094 2011-07-20 19:39:57 <copumpkin> to the #agda mobile!
2095 2011-07-20 19:40:05 <copumpkin> #coq is probably more likely, eh
2096 2011-07-20 19:41:00 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2097 2011-07-20 19:41:42 <Eliel_> AlonzoTG: megaclams?
2098 2011-07-20 19:42:23 <Eliel_> AlonzoTG: and ... it really needs to be reimplemented in haskell if you want any chances to prove it's correct.
2099 2011-07-20 19:44:00 <AlonzoTG> ;)
2100 2011-07-20 19:44:06 <AlonzoTG> Yeah, I'm working on a new C++ implementation,
2101 2011-07-20 19:44:18 <AlonzoTG> but I'm having trouble working out the over-all architecture I want to implement.
2102 2011-07-20 19:44:33 rynx has joined
2103 2011-07-20 19:44:45 <AlonzoTG> So therefore I need to learn more about what things need to be stored in the peer (daemon) and from there I can figure out how to store them.
2104 2011-07-20 19:45:13 <AlonzoTG> It gets kinda complex because properly there is a client, which is used by the user, and then there is the peer which is a node in the bitcoin network.
2105 2011-07-20 19:47:10 <AlonzoTG> as for megaclams, well a buck is sometimes called a clam,
2106 2011-07-20 19:47:18 <AlonzoTG> so a megaclam is a million bucks.
2107 2011-07-20 19:48:16 <lianj> buck?
2108 2011-07-20 19:48:25 knotwork has joined
2109 2011-07-20 19:49:05 <cjdelisle> c++?
2110 2011-07-20 19:49:08 <cjdelisle> not C?
2111 2011-07-20 19:49:10 <AlonzoTG> =P
2112 2011-07-20 19:49:20 <AlonzoTG> A buck is yet another slang term for a ducat.
2113 2011-07-20 19:51:55 Bachfischer has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
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2118 2011-07-20 19:58:05 <nanotube> and also a male deer
2119 2011-07-20 19:59:36 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2120 2011-07-20 19:59:49 <vragnaroda> also, a ram or billygoat
2121 2011-07-20 19:59:56 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2122 2011-07-20 20:01:28 <vragnaroda> but bills, bones, clams, cucumbers, dead presidents, greenbacks, simoleons, smackers, smackeroos, clams, and many others are all synonyms for dollar
2123 2011-07-20 20:01:55 altamic has joined
2124 2011-07-20 20:02:37 <vragnaroda> buck is probably used as much if not more than dollar
2125 2011-07-20 20:02:39 <prof7bit> AlonzoTG: look at this in its early development stages (still quite simple to understand) for an idea how to start: http://code.google.com/p/fpbitcoin/ <-- this is written in the lingua franca of computing so it should be easy to port to any other language.
2126 2011-07-20 20:04:18 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2127 2011-07-20 20:04:21 <nanotube> vragnaroda: simoleons, really? is that coming from the stephenson short story? or the other way around?
2128 2011-07-20 20:04:58 <vragnaroda> nanotube: i don't know the origin but i've heard it used
2129 2011-07-20 20:05:09 <nanotube> mm
2130 2011-07-20 20:05:29 <ersi> nanotube: which of his short stories? :o
2131 2011-07-20 20:06:15 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2132 2011-07-20 20:06:15 <vragnaroda> nanotube: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/simoleon
2133 2011-07-20 20:08:05 <nanotube> vragnaroda: found this: heh http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-sim1.htm
2134 2011-07-20 20:08:12 <nanotube> definitely seems the story is later.
2135 2011-07-20 20:08:17 <nanotube> ersi: "the great simoleon caper"
2136 2011-07-20 20:08:29 <nanotube> google it and you'll find full text
2137 2011-07-20 20:09:32 <nanotube> ersi: theere it is heh http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,982610-1,00.html
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2141 2011-07-20 20:14:02 <vragnaroda> nanotube: there's a gas station not far from my house and whenever i buy a drink from there, the clerk always tells me the price in terms of bits
2142 2011-07-20 20:15:12 <vragnaroda> (a bit being 12.5¢)
2143 2011-07-20 20:15:16 <nanotube> bits as in 12.5 c?
2144 2011-07-20 20:15:19 <nanotube> ah heh
2145 2011-07-20 20:15:21 <nanotube> funny
2146 2011-07-20 20:15:23 <ersi> nanotube: awesome, thanks!
2147 2011-07-20 20:15:42 <nanotube> enjoy the read :)
2148 2011-07-20 20:16:07 <AlonzoTG> Is there a list of things that the bitcoin daemon does in order to support its protocols?
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2150 2011-07-20 20:17:50 <prof7bit> you need to first understand the general principle of bitcoin.
2151 2011-07-20 20:18:00 <prof7bit> of how it works
2152 2011-07-20 20:18:44 <prof7bit> for example what is a transaction, what is the purpose of the block chain, what is the wallet, etc.
2153 2011-07-20 20:19:14 <jgarzik> forrestv: is p2pool a full node on the bitcoin network, receiving transactions from bitcoind?
2154 2011-07-20 20:19:29 <jgarzik> forrestv: otherwise, I do not understand how it can create new blocks with proper payouts
2155 2011-07-20 20:19:46 <jgarzik> forrestv: wiki and forum are very unclear about how it actually works
2156 2011-07-20 20:20:35 <prof7bit> then there is this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
2157 2011-07-20 20:20:42 <prof7bit> and the pages that are linked from there
2158 2011-07-20 20:20:47 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r157 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Java 5 compatibility - remove some @Override pragmas http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r157/
2159 2011-07-20 20:21:07 <prof7bit> and of course the satoshi paper is essential
2160 2011-07-20 20:22:11 <riush> i'm trying to build current master but keep getting "ui.cpp:260: error: Âclass wxString has no member named ÂToStdStringÂ" - is this a known problem?
2161 2011-07-20 20:24:51 sacredchao has joined
2162 2011-07-20 20:25:04 <riush> i'm using wx 2.9.. this is the whole output: http://pastie.org/2244741
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2181 2011-07-20 20:46:59 <eianpsego> Can someone explain what this code does: http://pastebin.com/vYj2xvyZ
2182 2011-07-20 20:47:03 <eianpsego> That is found in util.h
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2188 2011-07-20 20:51:16 <prof7bit> this is the reason i refuse to use C or C++
2189 2011-07-20 20:51:52 <jgarzik> eianpsego: calls a function a random number of times, to ensure the stack pointer varies
2190 2011-07-20 20:52:57 <prof7bit> where is the loop?
2191 2011-07-20 20:54:08 <prof7bit> and if it returns the stack is exactly where it was before.
2192 2011-07-20 20:54:58 <prof7bit> otherwise this *ugly* attempt to fix something that is not broken would be a memory leak by all definitions
2193 2011-07-20 20:55:12 <eianpsego> I think that might be broken
2194 2011-07-20 20:55:38 <eianpsego> I know what the intention is, but I'm not sure that would work
2195 2011-07-20 20:55:46 <eianpsego> For the reason prof just mentioned
2196 2011-07-20 20:56:00 <eianpsego> When the recursion concludes, you are back to where you started
2197 2011-07-20 20:56:10 <eianpsego> unless I'm totally confused
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2199 2011-07-20 20:56:41 <jgarzik> prof7bit: the "loop" is recursion
2200 2011-07-20 20:57:33 <prof7bit> I don't see where it calls itself (but i am not well versed in deciphering obfuscated C code like this)
2201 2011-07-20 20:57:59 <jgarzik> prof7bit: "ThreadFn;"
2202 2011-07-20 20:58:07 <eianpsego> prof7bit, that is being called in a few places - I guess you'd have to look around the source
2203 2011-07-20 20:58:15 <jgarzik> this is not obfuscated code. it is simple control flow.
2204 2011-07-20 20:58:45 <prof7bit> it calls threadfn (that is passed in from the outside) and then after that returns it returns, i see no recursion here
2205 2011-07-20 20:58:45 <jgarzik> when it reaches the "loop" count, it falls through and begins executing, rather than recursing onto itself.
2206 2011-07-20 20:58:51 pumpkin has joined
2207 2011-07-20 20:58:58 <jgarzik> prof7bit: no, it does not return, it falls through
2208 2011-07-20 20:59:28 <jgarzik> this isn't rocket science
2209 2011-07-20 20:59:30 <vegard> iirc, gcc optimises it away entirely
2210 2011-07-20 20:59:48 <Namegduf> jgarzik: How is ThreadFn a reference to itself?
2211 2011-07-20 21:00:00 <vegard> Namegduf: the caller passes in its own name to the macro
2212 2011-07-20 21:00:03 <prof7bit> i see no recursion
2213 2011-07-20 21:00:14 <eianpsego> jgarzik, thanks I got it now
2214 2011-07-20 21:00:21 <WakiMiko_> i dont get it either
2215 2011-07-20 21:00:22 <vegard> it's the caller that ends up calling itself. this thing is just a macro. macro can't invoke themselves anyway
2216 2011-07-20 21:00:32 <WakiMiko_> the return isnt even part of a function
2217 2011-07-20 21:00:37 <WakiMiko_> its just a block
2218 2011-07-20 21:01:44 <vegard> just try to expand the macro inside one of its users, you'll see how it works
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2222 2011-07-20 21:03:13 <Namegduf> So it does not, in fact, contain recursion, but is passed a function's own name to recurse. That makes sense, yes.
2223 2011-07-20 21:03:51 <Namegduf> I'm not sure I can see a way to ever progress past it- it always either increases nLoops, or recurses then returns.
2224 2011-07-20 21:03:54 <prof7bit> the proper way to avoid buffer overruns is not to build such *hillarious* constructs into the code, it is to *avoid* them by not doing things that could cause them in the first place.
2225 2011-07-20 21:04:06 <lyspooner> hello all. is there any correspondence from satoshi that explains the reasons for the a) shape of the distribution curve of bitcoins and b) why 2016 blocks?
2226 2011-07-20 21:04:19 <Namegduf> The proer way to implement stack randomisation is to pass a compiler flag requesting stack randomisation
2227 2011-07-20 21:04:32 <lianj> Namegduf: hehe
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2229 2011-07-20 21:04:36 <eianpsego> namegduf, that is what I've always seen - yeah
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2231 2011-07-20 21:05:33 <prof7bit> in any other language people would LOL about such ridiculous constructs, only in C this seems to be perfectly normal. I wonder how this bizarre language could ever become so popular.
2232 2011-07-20 21:05:49 <vegard> prof7bit: what is your language of choice, then?
2233 2011-07-20 21:05:50 <Namegduf> You don't use many other languages, do you?
2234 2011-07-20 21:06:06 rynx has joined
2235 2011-07-20 21:06:08 <Namegduf> Also people DO find such constructs amusing in C
2236 2011-07-20 21:06:10 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2237 2011-07-20 21:06:11 <Namegduf> Thus this conversation
2238 2011-07-20 21:06:13 <prof7bit> for the things that others do in C++ I am using ObjFPC
2239 2011-07-20 21:06:15 <Namegduf> They aren't considered entirely normal
2240 2011-07-20 21:06:20 <Namegduf> So that was really just terrible trollishness
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2244 2011-07-20 21:06:52 <vegard> delphi?
2245 2011-07-20 21:06:58 <prof7bit> similar
2246 2011-07-20 21:07:08 <prof7bit> FPC
2247 2011-07-20 21:08:09 <jgarzik> prof7bit: your thoughts on programming languages are misguided but amusing
2248 2011-07-20 21:08:17 <jgarzik> prof7bit: this is not "perfectly normal" in C
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2250 2011-07-20 21:08:56 <eianpsego> jgarzik, stackguard is implemented by most versions of gcc by default
2251 2011-07-20 21:09:03 <prof7bit> misguided? amusing?
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2255 2011-07-20 21:09:26 <eianpsego> jgarzik, was this a cross-platform thing?
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2257 2011-07-20 21:09:48 <jgarzik> eianpsego: yes
2258 2011-07-20 21:10:03 <jgarzik> eianpsego: and yes
2259 2011-07-20 21:10:13 <prof7bit> I am the one who is amused.
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2261 2011-07-20 21:10:23 <eianpsego> jgarzik, cool. I get it. I don't like it. But I get it.
2262 2011-07-20 21:10:36 <gmaxwell> lyspooner: I don't think I've seen anything explaining 2016 _exactly_, but it falls out as a pretty logical choice. Making the difficulty window very short opens up varrious attacks related to lying about the timestamps in the chain.
2263 2011-07-20 21:10:41 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2264 2011-07-20 21:10:43 <jgarzik> eianpsego: I don't claim to like it, either :)
2265 2011-07-20 21:10:55 <prof7bit> but there is also a little bit of sadness when I look at this generation of programmers
2266 2011-07-20 21:10:56 <eianpsego> :P
2267 2011-07-20 21:11:03 <gmaxwell> lyspooner: Also, you don't want the difficulty swingly wildly due to shot noise, daily/nightly cycles, or weekly cycles.
2268 2011-07-20 21:11:46 <gmaxwell> lyspooner: The fact that there are weekly cycles in hashrate support making the duration an integer number of weeks.
2269 2011-07-20 21:11:59 <gmaxwell> lyspooner: (or at least as close as possible)
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2271 2011-07-20 21:13:02 <lyspooner> gmaxwell: i think those are arguments for nothing shorter than 2016 if i understand you correctly. but why not longer than 2016?
2272 2011-07-20 21:13:11 pumpkin has joined
2273 2011-07-20 21:13:29 <Blitzboom> i believe due to what is happening with namecoin now
2274 2011-07-20 21:13:32 <vegard> limits the number of blocks you can make if you suddenly increase your power by a lot, doesn't it?
2275 2011-07-20 21:13:35 <gmaxwell> lyspooner: the longer it is the more off track we can get from the projected targets if hashrate changes suddenly.
2276 2011-07-20 21:13:37 <Blitzboom> large temporary fluctuations in difficulty
2277 2011-07-20 21:14:06 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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2279 2011-07-20 21:14:34 <gmaxwell> (also, the clamps become more significant with longer cycles, and ideally the clamps would never be hit as the non-linearity can lead to some weird incentives)
2280 2011-07-20 21:14:47 <jgarzik> I'd say you lack education and/or experience, if you are unable to neutrally evaluate each programming language's strengths and weaknesses. Pro-language bias and anti-language bias are always marks of immaturaity. A -software engineer- has depth of experience with all the major programming languages, and is able to evaluate them as tools for specific tasks.
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2285 2011-07-20 21:15:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik++
2286 2011-07-20 21:15:16 <b4epoche> +10
2287 2011-07-20 21:15:27 <BlueMatt> +20
2288 2011-07-20 21:15:30 <kartmetal> Hi. What's the Right way to report a security issue in the bitcoin clietn?
2289 2011-07-20 21:15:42 <BlueMatt> kartmetal: pm jgarzik, sipa, tcatm, gavinandresen
2290 2011-07-20 21:15:45 <BlueMatt> or email one of them
2291 2011-07-20 21:15:49 <gmaxwell> /msg jgarzik or gavin sip tcam.
2292 2011-07-20 21:15:52 <gmaxwell> er sipa
2293 2011-07-20 21:16:01 <kartmetal> k
2294 2011-07-20 21:16:04 <jgarzik> well
2295 2011-07-20 21:16:13 <jgarzik> ideally pgp-signed email to gavin, sipa, tcatm and myself
2296 2011-07-20 21:16:28 <pumpkin> why a signed email?
2297 2011-07-20 21:16:31 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
2298 2011-07-20 21:16:49 <tcatm> s/signed/encrypted/
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2300 2011-07-20 21:16:54 <copumpkin> that'd make more sense
2301 2011-07-20 21:16:54 <jgarzik> yeah
2302 2011-07-20 21:16:54 <Joric> gmaxwell, how did you form and send that nonstandard transaction? modified official client?
2303 2011-07-20 21:17:02 <gmaxwell> Joric: yes.
2304 2011-07-20 21:17:10 <gmaxwell> Joric: It was fun.
2305 2011-07-20 21:17:15 wirehead has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2306 2011-07-20 21:17:20 <Joric> there's such a mess (no offence anyone)
2307 2011-07-20 21:17:30 dedeibel_ has joined
2308 2011-07-20 21:17:32 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs::
2309 2011-07-20 21:17:37 <gmaxwell> I saw only my own limitations.
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2311 2011-07-20 21:17:55 <WakiMiko_> BlueMatt: i hope you are logging all your dns requests for all the funny shit people are trying
2312 2011-07-20 21:18:13 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: no, though I really should be
2313 2011-07-20 21:18:26 <BlueMatt> I should be logging everything, but Im really not logging anything...
2314 2011-07-20 21:18:45 <Joric> yeah i believe you
2315 2011-07-20 21:18:46 <WakiMiko_> no logs are actually better loggin is bad
2316 2011-07-20 21:18:55 <vegard> was there a nonstandard transaction causing problems recently?
2317 2011-07-20 21:19:00 <gmaxwell> (For example, I was too quick to assume that I'd need to manually pack the length opcode myself, when the objects knew how to do that themselves and I didn't read the implementation closely enough to noticeâ too much time spent programming in C, where you usually have to do everything yourself)
2318 2011-07-20 21:19:20 <WakiMiko_> i already had ur XXX before i tried the 1337 part
2319 2011-07-20 21:19:24 <WakiMiko_> hmmmmmm
2320 2011-07-20 21:20:14 <BlueMatt> so far no one has gotten further, I think the step a step or two after that needs a clue
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2329 2011-07-20 21:31:33 <diki> http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/342085314
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2335 2011-07-20 21:38:00 <zamgo_> so how good/bad/ugly would it be to support JSONP in bitcoind?
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2340 2011-07-20 21:40:59 freewil`away is now known as freewil
2341 2011-07-20 21:42:33 <luke-jr> so who's the n00b using coinbaser?
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2358 2011-07-20 22:06:45 <Evious> zamgo_, is avoiding crossite scripting a good thing to do with bitcoind?
2359 2011-07-20 22:07:01 <Evious> *allowing
2360 2011-07-20 22:07:25 <freewil> lol in what context
2361 2011-07-20 22:07:32 <zamgo_> indeed, JSONP's skipping of same origin policy is a big concern
2362 2011-07-20 22:07:36 <freewil> doesn't sound like a good idea
2363 2011-07-20 22:09:09 <zamgo_> for a javascript thin client, it'd be nice. of course, you can still work around same origin policy with no changes to bitcoind
2364 2011-07-20 22:09:23 b4epoch__ has joined
2365 2011-07-20 22:09:25 <zamgo_> jsonp would just make it easier
2366 2011-07-20 22:10:10 erus` has joined
2367 2011-07-20 22:10:46 <tcatm> jgarzik: as in CSRF like on websites?
2368 2011-07-20 22:11:06 <BlueMatt> tcatm: yes
2369 2011-07-20 22:12:10 <WakiMiko_> argh matt i tried everything
2370 2011-07-20 22:12:20 niekie_ has joined
2371 2011-07-20 22:12:22 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: did you see the new clue?
2372 2011-07-20 22:12:26 <WakiMiko_> decoding the base58 to bites and saving it as a jpg
2373 2011-07-20 22:12:29 <WakiMiko_> didnt work :D
2374 2011-07-20 22:12:33 <WakiMiko_> *bytes
2375 2011-07-20 22:12:54 somuchfail has joined
2376 2011-07-20 22:12:59 <BlueMatt> not the right track
2377 2011-07-20 22:14:00 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r158 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ (NetworkConnection.java Peer.java PeerGroup.java): Clean up Peer exception handling http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r158/
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2380 2011-07-20 22:15:16 <jgarzik> tcatm: yes
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2388 2011-07-20 22:17:31 <lfm> jpeg? then orc to retreive it? why?
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2424 2011-07-20 22:17:49 <lfm> ocr
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2429 2011-07-20 22:20:35 <WakiMiko_> got the pic...
2430 2011-07-20 22:21:08 smtmnyz has joined
2431 2011-07-20 22:24:08 <lfm> WakiMiko_: what good is the pic?
2432 2011-07-20 22:24:36 <WakiMiko_> im talking to matt about his riddle
2433 2011-07-20 22:25:55 <BlueMatt> try not to give any real clues in public, please
2434 2011-07-20 22:26:01 <WakiMiko_> k
2435 2011-07-20 22:27:17 <luke-jr> what pic?
2436 2011-07-20 22:28:22 <jgarzik> shows the unmasking of Tonal as an international Illuminati conspiracy
2437 2011-07-20 22:28:47 <luke-jr> jgarzik: maybe. Nystrom wrote about Masonsâ¦
2438 2011-07-20 22:28:54 <luke-jr> jgarzik: but Nystrom also abandoned Tonal, so
2439 2011-07-20 22:29:07 <luke-jr> http://testing.tonal.pident.artefact2.com/
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2460 2011-07-20 22:59:28 <phantomcircuit> lol what the fuck
2461 2011-07-20 22:59:38 <phantomcircuit> how can i send a pull request for a single commit on github?
2462 2011-07-20 22:59:38 GMP has joined
2463 2011-07-20 22:59:49 <phantomcircuit> do i seriously have to create a new branch for a 2 line change?
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2469 2011-07-20 23:06:10 <BlueMatt> yes
2470 2011-07-20 23:06:23 <BlueMatt>
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2478 2011-07-20 23:08:07 <ByteCoin> test
2479 2011-07-20 23:08:09 <prof7bit> i would now say something about git but i better don't do it because people could feel offended.
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2483 2011-07-20 23:09:16 <WakiMiko_> git is out lord and saviour, son of torvalds
2484 2011-07-20 23:10:25 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2485 2011-07-20 23:11:19 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/421
2486 2011-07-20 23:12:52 <BlueMatt> and seriously, dont complain, it takes literally like 3 commands to make a branch for a pull request
2487 2011-07-20 23:13:24 <BlueMatt> isnt resendwallettransactions called on a regular basis instead of once in a while?
2488 2011-07-20 23:13:34 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
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2491 2011-07-20 23:14:45 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's called everytime the socket is writable, however it only actually resends between 0 and 30 minutes
2492 2011-07-20 23:15:08 <phantomcircuit> trust me i didn't write that for fun
2493 2011-07-20 23:15:32 <BlueMatt> damn, puzzle solved
2494 2011-07-20 23:15:56 <phantomcircuit> you didn't know that's what it did? :P
2495 2011-07-20 23:16:08 <phantomcircuit> this shit has annoyed me for like forever
2496 2011-07-20 23:16:24 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: it'd make more sense as a RPC call IMO
2497 2011-07-20 23:16:29 <BlueMatt> I dont remember exactly, its not like I know everything in the codebase
2498 2011-07-20 23:16:32 <BlueMatt> I was just asking
2499 2011-07-20 23:16:33 nameless has joined
2500 2011-07-20 23:16:43 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, probably but i cant be asked to do that
2501 2011-07-20 23:16:46 <Eliel_> BlueMatt: are you going to reveal the solution to everyone else too?
2502 2011-07-20 23:16:49 <WakiMiko_> DAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN
2503 2011-07-20 23:16:51 <luke-jr> why not?
2504 2011-07-20 23:16:52 <luke-jr> let's try
2505 2011-07-20 23:16:53 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: yea, after it confirms
2506 2011-07-20 23:16:56 <vragnaroda> phantomcircuit: please do that.
2507 2011-07-20 23:16:58 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: make JSON-RPC do it instead
2508 2011-07-20 23:16:59 <WakiMiko_> what was rot13
2509 2011-07-20 23:17:01 <phantomcircuit> sigh
2510 2011-07-20 23:17:03 <phantomcircuit> fine
2511 2011-07-20 23:17:09 <luke-jr> seems like it worked to me
2512 2011-07-20 23:17:10 <WakiMiko_> encrypted
2513 2011-07-20 23:17:18 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: the solution after the image, the final key was rot13 encrypted
2514 2011-07-20 23:17:32 <luke-jr> ROT13 isn't encryption kthx
2515 2011-07-20 23:17:33 <BlueMatt> just to fuck you over after you figure out the image
2516 2011-07-20 23:17:35 <phantomcircuit> aaha I SHALL USE A GLOBAL VARIABLE FOR NO REASON
2517 2011-07-20 23:17:41 <WakiMiko_> i never got what to do with the image :C
2518 2011-07-20 23:17:47 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yep, thats why I used it
2519 2011-07-20 23:18:08 <WakiMiko_> make rot13 stronger by applying it TWICE
2520 2011-07-20 23:18:16 <BlueMatt> lol
2521 2011-07-20 23:18:20 AStove has quit ()
2522 2011-07-20 23:18:22 <WakiMiko_> i literlly did everything witht hat image
2523 2011-07-20 23:18:48 <BlueMatt> missed one apparently
2524 2011-07-20 23:18:57 unclemantis has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2525 2011-07-20 23:18:58 <Eliel_> I never even got to an image :P I got stuck at "README provided by vrs/lambda" :P didn't find anything with google that looked useful.
2526 2011-07-20 23:19:05 <WakiMiko_> that was the first riddle
2527 2011-07-20 23:19:10 briareus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2528 2011-07-20 23:19:10 <BlueMatt> Eliel_: you realize that was the old riddle?
2529 2011-07-20 23:19:14 <BlueMatt> not the new one
2530 2011-07-20 23:19:21 <Eliel_> oh, you made a newer one
2531 2011-07-20 23:19:23 <BlueMatt> yea
2532 2011-07-20 23:19:31 <BlueMatt> that one, I posted the full solution
2533 2011-07-20 23:19:38 <WakiMiko_> got the TXT and 1337 part pretty quick
2534 2011-07-20 23:19:41 <phantomcircuit> what's the naming convention for a bool argument ?
2535 2011-07-20 23:19:41 <BlueMatt> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.msg377346#msg377346
2536 2011-07-20 23:19:42 <Eliel_> can you point me towards the post?
2537 2011-07-20 23:19:42 <WakiMiko_> after that, fml
2538 2011-07-20 23:19:47 klikklak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2539 2011-07-20 23:20:03 <phantomcircuit> actually idgaf
2540 2011-07-20 23:20:06 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: there isnt one...just -no* or -* depending on the default, not both
2541 2011-07-20 23:20:13 Daba has joined
2542 2011-07-20 23:20:54 <WakiMiko_> i binary diffed that image with the supposedly original
2543 2011-07-20 23:20:57 <nameless> Hello. I have a question regarding how people test bitcoind as such. Are you testing using real bitcoin or do you use some kind of simulator ?
2544 2011-07-20 23:21:00 <WakiMiko_> i extracted all strings
2545 2011-07-20 23:21:08 <WakiMiko_> i played with it in gimp
2546 2011-07-20 23:21:14 <WakiMiko_> :C
2547 2011-07-20 23:21:31 <BlueMatt> there was no original, I converted a png I found with gimp
2548 2011-07-20 23:21:37 RenaKunisaki has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2549 2011-07-20 23:21:39 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2550 2011-07-20 23:21:50 <WakiMiko_> explains why the diff was like EVERYTHING CHANGED
2551 2011-07-20 23:21:53 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2552 2011-07-20 23:21:53 <BlueMatt> op tx confirmed
2553 2011-07-20 23:21:57 <phantomcircuit> pwallet is a global right?
2554 2011-07-20 23:22:02 <vragnaroda> nameless: there is a separate testnet
2555 2011-07-20 23:22:08 GMP has joined
2556 2011-07-20 23:22:11 GMP has quit (Changing host)
2557 2011-07-20 23:22:11 GMP has joined
2558 2011-07-20 23:22:27 <nameless> vragnaroda: Oh, how does that work ?
2559 2011-07-20 23:22:35 RenaKunisaki has joined
2560 2011-07-20 23:22:53 <vragnaroda> nameless: launch bitcoin with -testnet option i believe
2561 2011-07-20 23:23:24 <vragnaroda> $ bitcoin -testnet
2562 2011-07-20 23:23:28 <nameless> Ok....
2563 2011-07-20 23:23:46 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2564 2011-07-20 23:24:14 <nameless> How does it work with accounts and stuff then. How do I refill my account balance with fake money ?
2565 2011-07-20 23:24:25 <prof7bit> <BlueMatt> it takes literally like 3 commands <-- actually it is a bit more complicated according what i have read: first you have to create an account with github. then you have to fork it on their server, thereby creating your own project. then you have to clone this whole thing onto your own harddrive. then you have to spend half a day to UNLEARN everything you ever knew about version control and learn git. Then you have t
2566 2011-07-20 23:24:26 <prof7bit> o find the correct commands to fiddle your changes you made into our newly created clone. then you have to figure out how to get it back onto the github server and *then* you can make a pull request. Thats not exactly my definition of easy.
2567 2011-07-20 23:24:45 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: well after you have an account and branch
2568 2011-07-20 23:25:04 <BlueMatt> if you do it sanely, its 3 extra commands and three clicks on github
2569 2011-07-20 23:25:12 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i have commits on my master that shouldn't be in mainline (ever)
2570 2011-07-20 23:25:22 <BlueMatt> you know you can cherry-pick
2571 2011-07-20 23:25:27 <phantomcircuit> so getting a branch that started at mainline took some learning
2572 2011-07-20 23:25:34 <BlueMatt> git reset --hard upstream/master; git cherry-pick xxxxxxx
2573 2011-07-20 23:25:41 <BlueMatt> (on a branch)
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2575 2011-07-20 23:26:53 <Eliel_> interesting, google doesn't give the link to the nightly page without adding bitcoin to the search keywords. just the hint isn't enough.
2576 2011-07-20 23:27:12 <Eliel_> no wonder I got nowhere with it
2577 2011-07-20 23:27:15 <BlueMatt> really? the hint worked for me
2578 2011-07-20 23:27:26 <prof7bit> svn checkout, make the edits, svn diff > patch.diff, attach it to an issue report. much easier for the occasional committer.. but svn is out and git is in.
2579 2011-07-20 23:27:38 <Eliel_> google personalizes searches somewhat
2580 2011-07-20 23:27:40 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
2581 2011-07-20 23:27:48 <BlueMatt> oh you are right, no it doesnt
2582 2011-07-20 23:27:53 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2583 2011-07-20 23:27:54 <BlueMatt> I thought it had, oh well more fun that way
2584 2011-07-20 23:27:57 <BlueMatt> no googlefu for you
2585 2011-07-20 23:27:58 GMP has joined
2586 2011-07-20 23:28:16 <Eliel_> I tried logging out from my google account and now it does give the link :P
2587 2011-07-20 23:28:25 <lianj> prof7bit: git help format-patch
2588 2011-07-20 23:28:31 <WakiMiko_> yeah it does, clicking a result a bunch of times moves it slowly to the top
2589 2011-07-20 23:28:36 <lianj> no need to fork and send a pull request on github
2590 2011-07-20 23:29:02 <Eliel_> google had apparently decided I'm not interested in bitcoin related stuff :P
2591 2011-07-20 23:29:11 Titeuf_87_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2592 2011-07-20 23:29:26 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: steghide
2593 2011-07-20 23:29:37 <lianj> prof7bit: but doing so opens a audience for comments on that patch, instead of blank rejection
2594 2011-07-20 23:30:04 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29908.msg384380#msg384380
2595 2011-07-20 23:30:18 <Eliel_> well, at least I got the encouragement to finally figure bitcoin script out as a result of your puzzle :)
2596 2011-07-20 23:30:29 <BlueMatt> well thats always good
2597 2011-07-20 23:30:51 <WakiMiko_> damn, didnt know about steghide
2598 2011-07-20 23:30:55 <BlueMatt> Id love to do another that is bitcoin-focused to make people learn more about bitcoin internals but nonstd transactions just never confirm
2599 2011-07-20 23:31:15 <WakiMiko_> oh well it was still fun, thanks for the riddle!
2600 2011-07-20 23:31:26 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: yea, I know what you feel like, I found out about steghide when I failed a puzzle like this, hence my inspiration
2601 2011-07-20 23:31:34 <prof7bit> if a patch is rejected because the patcher did not use their preferred tools for creating the patch and not because the patch is wrong then this would be the last patch i would ever submit.
2602 2011-07-20 23:31:51 Katapult has joined
2603 2011-07-20 23:31:53 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: if you email a patch it will still be looked at and pulled if its good
2604 2011-07-20 23:31:57 <BlueMatt> ie on the dev mailing list
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2608 2011-07-20 23:32:53 <lianj> prof7bit: if you think svn is great. think again
2609 2011-07-20 23:33:15 <prof7bit> i don't think svn is great. but i also don't think git is the answer.
2610 2011-07-20 23:33:22 intx has joined
2611 2011-07-20 23:33:23 <WakiMiko_> steghide is pretty damn cool
2612 2011-07-20 23:33:35 <BlueMatt> yea, it really is
2613 2011-07-20 23:33:52 <intx> is there a wiki showing what depnendecies i need for compiling bitcoin
2614 2011-07-20 23:33:57 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2615 2011-07-20 23:34:06 <BlueMatt> intx: read doc/build* for your platform
2616 2011-07-20 23:34:22 <lianj> prof7bit: but one of the dvcs's is
2617 2011-07-20 23:34:46 <lianj> or see it as the next step
2618 2011-07-20 23:35:58 <prof7bit> git is based on a good idea theoretically, but somehow they managed to implemented in a way that makes it unnecessarily hard for svn users to get comfortable with it.
2619 2011-07-20 23:36:24 <BlueMatt> I dont think helping svn users was the design goal
2620 2011-07-20 23:37:16 <WakiMiko_> linus HATES svn
2621 2011-07-20 23:37:21 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2622 2011-07-20 23:37:33 <lianj> for a reason
2623 2011-07-20 23:37:34 <prof7bit> this explains it.
2624 2011-07-20 23:37:34 <WakiMiko_> hes git talk is quite entertaining to watch
2625 2011-07-20 23:37:39 <WakiMiko_> his*
2626 2011-07-20 23:37:52 luke-jr_ has joined
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2628 2011-07-20 23:37:57 <prof7bit> seems quite immature such an attitude.
2629 2011-07-20 23:38:01 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2630 2011-07-20 23:38:13 <WakiMiko_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 if anyone cares
2631 2011-07-20 23:38:19 Blitzboom_ has joined
2632 2011-07-20 23:38:21 hahuang65 has joined
2633 2011-07-20 23:38:24 <WakiMiko_> well linus has always liked to bash, and he has a HUGE ego
2634 2011-07-20 23:38:58 <lianj> maybe git requires you to extend the mindset about VCS if you still like svn. but it pays back :)
2635 2011-07-20 23:39:03 luke-jr has joined
2636 2011-07-20 23:40:10 <prof7bit> i don't like the way the commands are named for example. Most of them all doing the exact opposite what every other version control (not only svn) user would expect.
2637 2011-07-20 23:40:27 <UukGoblin> I hate svn too now ;-]
2638 2011-07-20 23:40:29 <WakiMiko_> prof7bit: https://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support
2639 2011-07-20 23:40:36 <UukGoblin> linus hates it, but he's got good reasons for it :-]
2640 2011-07-20 23:40:45 <WakiMiko_> no idea how well that works though
2641 2011-07-20 23:40:51 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2642 2011-07-20 23:41:53 <lianj> on work they still used svn and i was the happiest person using git-svn. did merges like a pro for all of them :P
2643 2011-07-20 23:41:54 <prof7bit> maybe svn does not work well with the kernel development wokflow. but why hate it for this?
2644 2011-07-20 23:42:30 <prof7bit> in many use cases svn is ust the simpler and more pragmatic tool to use.
2645 2011-07-20 23:43:24 <prof7bit> maybe it is because i use svn every day and i have zero problems with it
2646 2011-07-20 23:43:38 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2647 2011-07-20 23:43:43 <lianj> you work in huge groups with svn?
2648 2011-07-20 23:43:50 Beccara has joined
2649 2011-07-20 23:44:05 <WakiMiko_> i like git because you dont even need a server
2650 2011-07-20 23:44:17 <WakiMiko_> i use it for all kinds of stuff, not only source code
2651 2011-07-20 23:44:25 <prof7bit> small groups and also one-man projects
2652 2011-07-20 23:44:54 <WakiMiko_> i have never really used svn beyond checking out some open source projects though
2653 2011-07-20 23:45:00 <WakiMiko_> so yeah.
2654 2011-07-20 23:46:52 <prof7bit> and i also use it to keep up to date with and make patches for a bigger open source project that is also using svn. no problems there also.
2655 2011-07-20 23:47:28 <jtaylor> which larger open source project still uses svn?
2656 2011-07-20 23:47:33 <prof7bit> many
2657 2011-07-20 23:47:54 <prof7bit> how is the average age in this channel?
2658 2011-07-20 23:47:58 <BlueMatt> oh who cares, if it works for you, it works fine
2659 2011-07-20 23:48:13 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: probably lower than most
2660 2011-07-20 23:48:14 <lianj> i bet most of the contributers use git-svn internaly then :D
2661 2011-07-20 23:48:22 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2662 2011-07-20 23:48:37 <WakiMiko_> im 12
2663 2011-07-20 23:48:38 <jtaylor> svn is ok, been using it for years before git, but I like git much more
2664 2011-07-20 23:48:47 <vragnaroda> jtaylor: the ones that were abandoned years ago
2665 2011-07-20 23:48:51 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2666 2011-07-20 23:49:25 <jtaylor> yes, I don't recall any major one
2667 2011-07-20 23:49:40 <jtaylor> linux switched, postgres switched, python switched
2668 2011-07-20 23:49:54 <WakiMiko_> python switched to hg though
2669 2011-07-20 23:50:05 <WakiMiko_> which is pretty much the same as git
2670 2011-07-20 23:50:28 <prof7bit> you young people see a new tool (git in this case (but the same applies to things like facebook or twitter)) and then this new HYPE is the ULTIMTE tool and nothing before it or outside it has ever existed or can possibly exist.
2671 2011-07-20 23:50:59 <lianj> jtaylor: a couple of small ones. or stuff hosted on google-code. i do `git svn clone â¦` very often when looking for code on the net. but thats the beauty, if the repo is svn you just use git-svn and get all of gits benefits
2672 2011-07-20 23:51:00 <WakiMiko_> i agree that git fans are really persistant about converting everyone...
2673 2011-07-20 23:51:03 <jtaylor> hehe I come from a community where svn is the new ultimate hype...
2674 2011-07-20 23:51:12 <jtaylor> just recently a large project migrated from cvs to svn
2675 2011-07-20 23:51:14 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2676 2011-07-20 23:51:18 <WakiMiko_> http://svnhub.com/ lol
2677 2011-07-20 23:51:27 <jtaylor> (man cvs sucks btw.. ^^)
2678 2011-07-20 23:51:44 <prof7bit> and in 3 years we have another hype and a new generation of kids will tell you that YOUR tools are old and cannot be used.
2679 2011-07-20 23:51:49 <jtaylor> google code now also supports git I heard
2680 2011-07-20 23:52:17 <jtaylor> prof7bit: thats the nature of open source
2681 2011-07-20 23:52:29 <prof7bit> thats the generation conflict.
2682 2011-07-20 23:52:50 <lianj> prof7bit: its not about the hype with git, it just does much more, its dvcs instead of vcs. you need to learn something, but dont whine
2683 2011-07-20 23:52:59 <osmosis> BlueMatt, connections: 77 its picking up
2684 2011-07-20 23:53:09 <BlueMatt> osmosis: nice
2685 2011-07-20 23:53:21 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr_, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/421
2686 2011-07-20 23:53:25 <jtaylor> git is a superset of svn, I can't really imagine what would be a superset of git
2687 2011-07-20 23:53:25 <phantomcircuit> amidoinitrite
2688 2011-07-20 23:53:29 <phantomcircuit> vragnaroda, ^
2689 2011-07-20 23:53:29 sneak has joined
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2691 2011-07-20 23:53:30 sneak has joined
2692 2011-07-20 23:53:30 <jtaylor> you can do pretty much anything with a dvcs
2693 2011-07-20 23:53:34 <prof7bit> lianj: please stop insulting me. i am not insulting you too so i demand the same from you.
2694 2011-07-20 23:53:59 <jtaylor> I'm really looking forward to a git based filesystem ^^
2695 2011-07-20 23:54:01 <lianj> ok im sorry. bad at englisch
2696 2011-07-20 23:54:33 <prof7bit> maybe wait another 20 years and reach my age and then you will see many things with different eyes.
2697 2011-07-20 23:54:45 <vragnaroda> phantomcircuit: i was joking, but ok
2698 2011-07-20 23:55:05 <phantomcircuit> vragnaroda, it was easy enough to add that it seems worth it
2699 2011-07-20 23:55:16 <lianj> prof7bit: well, you still would benefit from taking git's learning curve
2700 2011-07-20 23:55:52 Beccara has joined
2701 2011-07-20 23:56:06 <luke-jr_> jtaylor: no, git is not a superset of svn
2702 2011-07-20 23:56:13 <WakiMiko_> there are git manuals written specifically for SVN users
2703 2011-07-20 23:56:19 <prof7bit> i will use git when the need arises. when i work on a project that uses it. before that i wont use it.
2704 2011-07-20 23:56:25 <luke-jr_> jtaylor: git does not support the CVS/svn workflow, nor cherry-picking
2705 2011-07-20 23:56:27 <jtaylor> what can svn do that git cannot?
2706 2011-07-20 23:56:43 <BlueMatt> oh who cares, if it works for you, it works fine
2707 2011-07-20 23:56:44 <luke-jr_> svn has real cherry-picking
2708 2011-07-20 23:56:44 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr_, git cherry-pick lol
2709 2011-07-20 23:56:48 <jtaylor> of course git supports svn workflow
2710 2011-07-20 23:56:50 <luke-jr_> phantomcircuit: that's not real
2711 2011-07-20 23:56:57 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr_, how so?
2712 2011-07-20 23:57:02 <luke-jr_> jtaylor: no, you HAVE to use DVCS workflow with git
2713 2011-07-20 23:57:08 <luke-jr_> phantomcircuit: it just diffs
2714 2011-07-20 23:57:11 <jtaylor> no you don't
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2716 2011-07-20 23:57:21 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr_, really? weird
2717 2011-07-20 23:57:26 <luke-jr_> jtaylor: you can't checkout a central repo, and commit directly to it
2718 2011-07-20 23:57:30 <luke-jr_> brb
2719 2011-07-20 23:57:35 <jtaylor> and what is a real cherry pick then?
2720 2011-07-20 23:57:49 <jtaylor> of course you can
2721 2011-07-20 23:57:56 <jtaylor> instead of commit its git push
2722 2011-07-20 23:58:23 neptunepink has joined
2723 2011-07-20 23:58:33 <WakiMiko_> well you have to commit locally first, but i would consider that a feature not a shortcumming
2724 2011-07-20 23:58:34 purpleposeidon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2725 2011-07-20 23:58:38 <WakiMiko_> comming*
2726 2011-07-20 23:59:01 <jtaylor> consider the local commit as shelving
2727 2011-07-20 23:59:12 neptunepink is now known as purpleposeidon