1 2011-07-23 00:00:09 <senseles> no, that's called socialism lol
   2 2011-07-23 00:00:15 <iddo> it's like, if i build a house next to yours and lowers the value of you house, did i commit a crime? it's same premise, that i denied you profits that you thought that you should have
   3 2011-07-23 00:00:39 <senseles> that's why people live in subdivisions
   4 2011-07-23 00:00:40 <iddo> or if i'm a restaurant critic and wrote bad review on your restaurant, did i commit a crime?
   5 2011-07-23 00:00:48 <gmaxwell> Thats not the premise of copyright— some big copyright holders might like you to think thats what copyright does, but inthe US thats incorrect.
   6 2011-07-23 00:00:50 <genjix> copyright is not about rewarding the artist, it's about incentivising culture
   7 2011-07-23 00:01:03 <iddo> the correct law should be contract law, not copyrights law
   8 2011-07-23 00:01:04 <Evious> That sounds like a disincentive to sharing. There'd be a lot less OS code if people felt they had zero protection against people flipping said code and selling it.
   9 2011-07-23 00:01:14 <gmaxwell> What genjix said is correct.
  10 2011-07-23 00:01:17 <Evious> (There isn't any protection, of course. But at least copyright brings the illusion.)
  11 2011-07-23 00:01:24 Transformer has joined
  12 2011-07-23 00:01:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you need to fix this travesty
  13 2011-07-23 00:01:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: asap
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  15 2011-07-23 00:01:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hello.JPG
  16 2011-07-23 00:01:39 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that is not hello.jpg. I am offended.
  17 2011-07-23 00:01:41 <gmaxwell> you mean it's not goatse?
  18 2011-07-23 00:01:45 Incitatus has joined
  19 2011-07-23 00:01:45 <b4epoche_> but why can't ITHAKA have offices in Omaha instead of New York?
  20 2011-07-23 00:02:22 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: yea, on second look it's not as crazy when I combine it with knowing they are in Ny Ny, though look at the JSTOR 2003 filings.
  21 2011-07-23 00:02:35 <b4epoche_> link?
  22 2011-07-23 00:02:52 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.immagic.com%2FeLibrary%2FARCHIVES%2FGENERAL%2FJSTOR_US%2FJ041014I.pdf&ei=vQ4qTrf3HNDogAfAxKCyCw&usg=AFQjCNFwewC7cOLeSF6Z6vDwm9BSX8qFmQ
  23 2011-07-23 00:02:53 <b4epoche_> nm
  24 2011-07-23 00:02:57 <gmaxwell> damn you google!
  25 2011-07-23 00:03:12 <iddo> copyright provides incentives do dumb things, like hollywood movies...
  26 2011-07-23 00:03:20 <b4epoche_> ah, thx, I was looking at ITHAKA's 2003...
  27 2011-07-23 00:03:46 <iddo> all the evidence shows that it is perverse incentive
  28 2011-07-23 00:03:52 <Evious> Hollywood with no copyright would be interesting. Movies couldn't finance themselves through merchandise, they'd be a lot lower budget.
  29 2011-07-23 00:03:54 <iddo> free software is good evidence
  30 2011-07-23 00:03:57 <Incitatus> gmaxwell, why not go to a police station with a sign that says "I'M GUILTY of creating a better world" but call up a bunch of reporters first
  31 2011-07-23 00:03:58 <jrmithdobbs> jesus christ they make how much money
  32 2011-07-23 00:04:02 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  33 2011-07-23 00:04:10 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: yea, highest paid.. CTO at $184, then people at $120k. And this was with an office still in Ny Ny.
  34 2011-07-23 00:04:11 <genjix> Incitatus: i already did message all the reporters :)
  35 2011-07-23 00:04:22 Transformer has left ()
  36 2011-07-23 00:04:23 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: thats way more reasonable.
  37 2011-07-23 00:04:25 * b4epoche_ is still trying to figure out what that $6.5M other fee is (http://snapplr.com/avzy)
  38 2011-07-23 00:04:41 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: is that from 2009?
  39 2011-07-23 00:04:56 <b4epoche_> 2008
  40 2011-07-23 00:05:02 <gmaxwell> They made some kind of "one time grant" to old ITHAKA. I couldn't figure that out, that might be what you're seeing.
  41 2011-07-23 00:05:02 <b4epoche_> filed in 2009
  42 2011-07-23 00:05:22 <b4epoche_> no, this /is/ ITHAKA
  43 2011-07-23 00:05:28 <genjix> Evious: *gasp* you mean movies might actually have a plot?
  44 2011-07-23 00:05:39 <senseles> Evious: they can't even keep a 2million/episode tv show on the air anymore
  45 2011-07-23 00:05:54 <senseles> stargate :(
  46 2011-07-23 00:06:07 <senseles> Notice how low budget all the new scifi shows are?
  47 2011-07-23 00:06:13 <Evious> But genjix where will I get my high density fix of super-ultraviolence and softcore porn?
  48 2011-07-23 00:06:16 <gmaxwell> Randomly, if I stand on my roof I can see the company they contract all their scannin to.
  49 2011-07-23 00:06:25 <gmaxwell> s/scannin/scanning/
  50 2011-07-23 00:06:35 <gmaxwell> (it's about two blocks away from my house)
  51 2011-07-23 00:06:51 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  52 2011-07-23 00:06:54 <senseles> if they're in NY NY 120K a year is barely going to afford a decent apartment
  53 2011-07-23 00:07:03 <senseles> so it's not an unreasonable payment
  54 2011-07-23 00:07:24 <Incitatus> senseles, 120k a year is a decent apartment idk what you're on about
  55 2011-07-23 00:07:32 <senseles> In new york?
  56 2011-07-23 00:07:36 <gmaxwell> senseles: I wasn't saying that it was unreasonable, I was trying to point out the contrast to 2009.
  57 2011-07-23 00:07:37 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  58 2011-07-23 00:07:59 <senseles> Ah
  59 2011-07-23 00:08:01 theorb has joined
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  61 2011-07-23 00:08:08 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  62 2011-07-23 00:08:20 <gmaxwell> I think their pay in 2003 looks very reasonable. Low in fact, at least considering NY NY.
  63 2011-07-23 00:08:56 <senseles> what was the pay in 2009?
  64 2011-07-23 00:09:11 <b4epoche_> gmaxwell:  for your 1859 PTRL, just ask (http://snapplr.com/7gew)
  65 2011-07-23 00:09:20 <senseles> i think at most you could justify a 100% increase for inflation but that's about it
  66 2011-07-23 00:09:30 <gmaxwell> senseles: http://snapplr.com/cqh5
  67 2011-07-23 00:09:49 <senseles> that's still not that bad
  68 2011-07-23 00:09:53 <b4epoche_> senseles:  and that second one is a bigger org
  69 2011-07-23 00:09:54 <senseles> if you account for inflation
  70 2011-07-23 00:10:37 <gmaxwell> senseles: er. 411K for its highest paid person.. when did the dollar suddenly lose 2/3s of its value in the last 10 years.
  71 2011-07-23 00:10:55 <senseles> it lost about half
  72 2011-07-23 00:11:02 <senseles> probably a bit more
  73 2011-07-23 00:11:14 * b4epoche_ just submitted a request for PTRL from 1700
  74 2011-07-23 00:11:44 <gmaxwell> senseles: CPI from 2003 to now is 1:1.23.
  75 2011-07-23 00:11:48 kish has quit (!~rr@unaffiliated/spice|Remote host closed the connection)
  76 2011-07-23 00:12:02 <senseles> ya, I don't believe those numbers
  77 2011-07-23 00:12:06 <jrmithdobbs> i'm dead serious
  78 2011-07-23 00:12:06 kish has joined
  79 2011-07-23 00:12:10 <jrmithdobbs> can someone send me hello.jpg
  80 2011-07-23 00:12:15 <jrmithdobbs> or a link to it
  81 2011-07-23 00:12:23 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Clever quit message!)
  82 2011-07-23 00:12:26 <senseles> I base my inflation on commodities
  83 2011-07-23 00:12:36 cuqaa has quit (Changing host)
  84 2011-07-23 00:12:36 cuqaa has joined
  85 2011-07-23 00:12:41 <senseles> gas, oil, milk, eggs, electricity, etc
  86 2011-07-23 00:12:45 cuqaa is now known as cuqa
  87 2011-07-23 00:12:47 <gmaxwell> senseles: .. Do you know how cpi works? ;)
  88 2011-07-23 00:12:52 <senseles> ya
  89 2011-07-23 00:13:03 <senseles> but I don't believe published rates take real world numbers into account
  90 2011-07-23 00:13:11 <gmaxwell> Okay. :)
  91 2011-07-23 00:14:10 bitcoinbulletin has joined
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  93 2011-07-23 00:14:15 <senseles> gold went from what, 500 to 1600?
  94 2011-07-23 00:14:19 <jrmithdobbs> oh awesome archive.org has it
  95 2011-07-23 00:14:20 <jrmithdobbs> lol
  96 2011-07-23 00:14:24 <gmaxwell> I like the fact that jstor was torrenting the file earlier. :)
  97 2011-07-23 00:14:27 <senseles> before I left the US around 2003 I bought an assload of silver @ 10$
  98 2011-07-23 00:14:29 <senseles> it's now at 40$
  99 2011-07-23 00:14:38 <senseles> those are 2 commodities that tripled their value during that time
 100 2011-07-23 00:14:50 <gmaxwell> yea, but thats .. noisy.
 101 2011-07-23 00:15:02 <senseles> bread, 0.99 -> 2.99
 102 2011-07-23 00:15:03 <senseles> tripled
 103 2011-07-23 00:15:09 <gmaxwell> Precious metals market is distorted by the use of these things as 'money'.
 104 2011-07-23 00:15:23 <gmaxwell> is bread that expensive now? wow.
 105 2011-07-23 00:15:29 * b4epoche_ goes back to watching Trailer Park Boys
 106 2011-07-23 00:15:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: jstor was torrenting it?
 107 2011-07-23 00:15:59 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 108 2011-07-23 00:16:06 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 109 2011-07-23 00:16:17 <b4epoche_> of course they were
 110 2011-07-23 00:16:21 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you had any blowback yet?
 111 2011-07-23 00:16:27 <b4epoche_> it could be 35 GB of porn
 112 2011-07-23 00:16:30 <gmaxwell> (presuably in order to download it to check it out)
 113 2011-07-23 00:16:36 <jrmithdobbs> right
 114 2011-07-23 00:16:58 <jrmithdobbs> just wouldn't think they'd do it in a way that would be easy to notice
 115 2011-07-23 00:17:01 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: JStor is telling the press that the files didn't come from them now.
 116 2011-07-23 00:17:13 <jrmithdobbs> lol link?
 117 2011-07-23 00:17:16 <gmaxwell> I put on a party hat.
 118 2011-07-23 00:17:29 <jrmithdobbs> awesome, you're pretty much in the clear then
 119 2011-07-23 00:17:34 <gmaxwell> I don't know if thats public yet, but I've got reporters forwarding their emails to me (and I'd guess vice versa)
 120 2011-07-23 00:17:46 <senseles> i wonder how much a gallon of milk is now
 121 2011-07-23 00:17:48 <senseles> 8$?
 122 2011-07-23 00:17:53 <senseles> 9$?
 123 2011-07-23 00:17:59 <genjix> gmaxwell: well i messaged you to a bag of reporters at all the big stations :p
 124 2011-07-23 00:17:59 <jrmithdobbs> ~5
 125 2011-07-23 00:18:02 <Incitatus> gmaxwell, I have confirmation that NYTimes writer is looking into this specifically
 126 2011-07-23 00:18:27 phantomcircuit has joined
 127 2011-07-23 00:18:47 <gmaxwell> Incitatus: Well, my response was that was basically "sounds like good news to me!"
 128 2011-07-23 00:19:12 <Incitatus> i have the feeling you'll be ok gmaxwell, just be careful
 129 2011-07-23 00:19:16 <Incitatus> don't come off radical
 130 2011-07-23 00:19:23 <Incitatus> appeal to human rights
 131 2011-07-23 00:19:29 <Incitatus> you sound well spoken in your write up
 132 2011-07-23 00:19:38 <gmaxwell> you'll like this...
 133 2011-07-23 00:20:03 <gmaxwell> Question from a reporter: "Can I also ask you what your demands are, specifically? If they are met, will you withdraw the papers from Pirate Bay?"
 134 2011-07-23 00:20:14 <iddo> heh
 135 2011-07-23 00:20:14 <upb> :)
 136 2011-07-23 00:20:36 <gmaxwell> And this was _after_ I'd asked him politely to go reread my statement.
 137 2011-07-23 00:20:37 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 138 2011-07-23 00:21:04 <gmaxwell> But in fairness, when his report came out he didn't totally make me sound like a cyberterrorist, which I was sure he would after that question.
 139 2011-07-23 00:22:25 Mercedes has joined
 140 2011-07-23 00:22:59 <Mercedes> Hi  I am new to all this
 141 2011-07-23 00:23:05 sabalaba has joined
 142 2011-07-23 00:23:43 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 143 2011-07-23 00:23:45 <jrmithdobbs> lol what
 144 2011-07-23 00:23:49 <iddo> gmaxwell: i actually fail to understand why there isnt blowback? didnt you break the law?
 145 2011-07-23 00:23:59 <jrmithdobbs> that question doesn't even make sense
 146 2011-07-23 00:24:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: reporters hate a fatal "tl;dr" streak
 147 2011-07-23 00:24:23 <iddo> the law against copying shouldnt exist, but it does
 148 2011-07-23 00:24:26 vragnaroda has quit (Quit: leaving)
 149 2011-07-23 00:24:34 <jrmithdobbs> iddo: all of that is publi domain for one thing
 150 2011-07-23 00:24:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I cannot count the number of times I've been asked basic questions about bitcoin; I point them to a precise online wiki/faq/post answer, and they respond by simply resending their original question
 151 2011-07-23 00:24:46 <jrmithdobbs> iddo: would be horrible press for them to go after him
 152 2011-07-23 00:24:58 wardearia has joined
 153 2011-07-23 00:25:07 <gmaxwell> There are a number of factors which mitigate my risk at this point.
 154 2011-07-23 00:25:19 <iddo> all the JSTOR articles are public domain? so what's the issue here? ToS ?
 155 2011-07-23 00:25:37 <jrmithdobbs> all of the jstor articles he published on tpb are, yes
 156 2011-07-23 00:25:42 <gmaxwell> iddo: Thats what they're going after Aaron for, basically.
 157 2011-07-23 00:26:05 <iddo> i fail to understand how is it a crime to copy public domain articles?
 158 2011-07-23 00:26:12 <iddo> what is the crime exactly?
 159 2011-07-23 00:26:13 <jrmithdobbs> tos stuff
 160 2011-07-23 00:26:26 <b4epoche_> Mercedes finds himself in the middle of some weird conversation that has nothing to do with bitcoin
 161 2011-07-23 00:26:33 <b4epoche_> or herself
 162 2011-07-23 00:26:42 <gmaxwell> Similar agencies (though I can find no examples of JSTOR doing it) have also argued that the digitization created a new copyright.
 163 2011-07-23 00:26:42 <iddo> how is this tos stuff supposed to be illegal for public domain, i dont get it
 164 2011-07-23 00:26:43 <jrmithdobbs> and technically they could try and claim their reproduction (scanning) and enhancements (watermarking) make them copyrightable again
 165 2011-07-23 00:26:57 <gmaxwell> These claims fail in US courts, but they still claim them.
 166 2011-07-23 00:26:58 <jrmithdobbs> iddo: i don't think any sane judge would buy it, but it's not really ever been tested
 167 2011-07-23 00:26:59 <iddo> blah
 168 2011-07-23 00:27:19 <gmaxwell> The ToS stuff has not been tested.
 169 2011-07-23 00:27:35 <jrmithdobbs> oh the scanning claims have been tested?
 170 2011-07-23 00:27:38 <gmaxwell> The landmark case for digitization creates new copyright is Bridgeman v. Corel.
 171 2011-07-23 00:27:51 <gmaxwell> It's been to court in the US several times, in fact.
 172 2011-07-23 00:28:15 <cuqa> hey, sorry for offtopic, someone just brute forced my server. I usually look up the hostnames of the ip, this time I am curious how the admin did this, because the ip resolved to COLOSSUS
 173 2011-07-23 00:28:23 <iddo> you see it's a slippery slope... first you say you're okay with copyrights, then the fbi breaks into your house while you watch the superball with too many people in the room, and now this digitization nonsense?
 174 2011-07-23 00:28:41 <b4epoche_> iddo?
 175 2011-07-23 00:28:49 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: has the watermarking claims been tested?
 176 2011-07-23 00:29:06 <Mercedes> b4epoche ...yup I did ....what is a bitcoin worth one us dollar?
 177 2011-07-23 00:29:08 x6763 has quit (Quit: leaving)
 178 2011-07-23 00:29:14 <jrmithdobbs> cuqa: your question makes no sense and answers itself because of this
 179 2011-07-23 00:29:19 <senseles> cuqa: edit the hosts file? windows or linux?
 180 2011-07-23 00:29:26 <senseles> cuqa: its kind of funny you didnt have a firewall
 181 2011-07-23 00:29:31 <gmaxwell> I'm not aware of any case testing it in this context.
 182 2011-07-23 00:29:37 <b4epoche_> what I don't get is who owns the copyright once it's scanned?  The scanner?
 183 2011-07-23 00:29:43 <cuqa> huh?
 184 2011-07-23 00:30:05 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: noone apparently looking at the entry for bridgeman v corel or wikipedia
 185 2011-07-23 00:30:06 <cuqa> senseles, it tried to get root access via SSH (linux)
 186 2011-07-23 00:30:31 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: scanning doesn't create a copyright, as there was no significant creative input.
 187 2011-07-23 00:30:31 <b4epoche_> jrmithdobbs:  yea, but is it the scanner claiming copyright?
 188 2011-07-23 00:30:49 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: yes
 189 2011-07-23 00:30:55 <gmaxwell> People can _claim_ anything that want, but at least that claim is a crap one.
 190 2011-07-23 00:31:13 <senseles> cuqa: why didnt you have ssh firewalled? or at minimum running on a nonstandard port? thats pretty funny.
 191 2011-07-23 00:31:20 <gmaxwell> But sadly people successfully get crap taking down on that basis.
 192 2011-07-23 00:31:21 <senseles> or check your logs?
 193 2011-07-23 00:31:23 <b4epoche_> okay, but I thought someone said people /were/ claiming copyright for scanning
 194 2011-07-23 00:31:30 <cuqa> my question is: -> tracert 186.180.144.78 resolves to COLOSSUS .. how can he have that hostname
 195 2011-07-23 00:31:36 <jrmithdobbs> why is this murdoch stuff getting so much press all of a sudden?
 196 2011-07-23 00:31:40 <senseles> i answered your quest
 197 2011-07-23 00:31:41 <senseles> ion
 198 2011-07-23 00:31:45 <senseles> hosts file modification
 199 2011-07-23 00:31:50 <jrmithdobbs> some reporters guessed some people short-as-shit pins to their voicemail
 200 2011-07-23 00:31:52 <jrmithdobbs> ZOMG HACKING
 201 2011-07-23 00:31:54 <jrmithdobbs> shut up
 202 2011-07-23 00:31:55 <b4epoche_> jrmithdobbs:  because his wife is hot
 203 2011-07-23 00:32:09 <cuqa> senseles, im not a linux pro, so laugh about me not running it at non-std port :>
 204 2011-07-23 00:32:17 <jrmithdobbs> if they were smart they wouldn't have needed to guess the pin on most of them, just spoof the callerid
 205 2011-07-23 00:32:18 <cuqa> quite new to this so
 206 2011-07-23 00:32:36 <jrmithdobbs> cuqa: i laugh at people who run it on a non-standard port
 207 2011-07-23 00:32:46 <senseles> murdoch in parliment was a good laugh
 208 2011-07-23 00:32:56 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: they have, certantly. For an example, a recent case I was involved with was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Portrait_Gallery_and_Wikimedia_Foundation_copyright_dispute
 209 2011-07-23 00:33:14 nhodges has joined
 210 2011-07-23 00:33:18 BlueMatt has joined
 211 2011-07-23 00:34:25 <b4epoche_> and I suppose you've followed this:  http://waxy.org/2011/06/kind_of_screwed/
 212 2011-07-23 00:34:39 <jrmithdobbs> what's a good crypto/security mailling list that's not all noise
 213 2011-07-23 00:34:53 <jrmithdobbs> I need some feedback
 214 2011-07-23 00:35:19 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 215 2011-07-23 00:35:48 Sedra has quit (Quit: ( IRC :: Quit ))
 216 2011-07-23 00:36:00 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: Yes, thouh I actually hadn't seen the latest update.
 217 2011-07-23 00:36:03 blishchrot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 218 2011-07-23 00:36:55 blishchrot has joined
 219 2011-07-23 00:37:17 underscor has joined
 220 2011-07-23 00:37:21 <jrmithdobbs> that sucks
 221 2011-07-23 00:37:26 <jrmithdobbs> (also, i love that album)
 222 2011-07-23 00:37:35 <iddo> that waxy page is nice...
 223 2011-07-23 00:37:44 <b4epoche_> gmaxwell:  you have any thoughts on how that would have played out in court?
 224 2011-07-23 00:37:49 <iddo> but all these copyright cases are such a waste of energy
 225 2011-07-23 00:38:23 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: he would have won i bet
 226 2011-07-23 00:38:47 <gmaxwell> Fair use cases in court are like a random number generator.
 227 2011-07-23 00:38:50 SecretSJ has quit (Quit: Say What?)
 228 2011-07-23 00:39:00 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche_: so long as he got good counsel
 229 2011-07-23 00:39:07 <iddo> so why are they suing that other guy?
 230 2011-07-23 00:39:13 <b4epoche_> gmaxwell:  yea, I think it was probably best for him to settle
 231 2011-07-23 00:39:42 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i don't think that's a fair use case
 232 2011-07-23 00:39:47 <gmaxwell> I'd guess he'd win (random number generator output), or he'd get lose but with some small hit (less than he paid, but he'd end up with more total cost— lost time, stress, lawyer fees)
 233 2011-07-23 00:39:52 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's not!
 234 2011-07-23 00:40:15 <jrmithdobbs> it's obviously original artwork
 235 2011-07-23 00:40:36 <gmaxwell> It's highly and intentionally derivative.
 236 2011-07-23 00:40:51 <gmaxwell> (and the right to make derivatives is one of the copyright exclusive rights)
 237 2011-07-23 00:41:11 <gmaxwell> But courts will randomly call derivatives fair use. Its really random.
 238 2011-07-23 00:41:16 <jrmithdobbs> ok yes, i used the wrong term
 239 2011-07-23 00:41:42 <jrmithdobbs> Mike Stimpson recreates Malcolm Browne's Pulitzer-winning 1963 photo of a Vietnamese monk's self-immolation.
 240 2011-07-23 00:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> lol that is awesome
 241 2011-07-23 00:42:16 <iddo> this random behavior is more evidence that the initial premise of laws against copying is nonsesne
 242 2011-07-23 00:42:24 <gmaxwell> My own view is that he infringed the copyright, but a proper, reasonable, and commercial viable fee would have been more like $500.
 243 2011-07-23 00:43:36 <iddo> what was his crime? is there a victim?
 244 2011-07-23 00:44:03 <jrmithdobbs> iddo: civil cases don't have to have a "victim"
 245 2011-07-23 00:44:13 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
 246 2011-07-23 00:44:19 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: I disagree though
 247 2011-07-23 00:44:33 <iddo> im not interested in formal law
 248 2011-07-23 00:44:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: if the image was recreated and published as shown in a vaccum by itself? a licensing fee would make sense
 249 2011-07-23 00:44:53 <gmaxwell> And copyriht should never have crimial compromises, except perhaps lying about copyright.
 250 2011-07-23 00:44:54 <iddo> victimless crimes shouldnt be illegal
 251 2011-07-23 00:45:27 <iddo> which word should i use instead of crime? offense?
 252 2011-07-23 00:45:36 <gmaxwell> iddo: so, what do you think about counterfitting cash? I can print lots. No one is directly hurt by my printing. Enh?
 253 2011-07-23 00:45:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but considering the artwork as a whole with the actual musical content and all, as an album should be considered, that is obviously an acceptable derivative with complimentary implications for the original artist
 254 2011-07-23 00:45:48 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 255 2011-07-23 00:45:54 <jrmithdobbs> imho
 256 2011-07-23 00:46:21 <jrmithdobbs> but ten i hate how columbia treated that entire generation/genre of muscians and that they still own the copyrights
 257 2011-07-23 00:46:25 <jrmithdobbs> so I'm a bit biased
 258 2011-07-23 00:46:31 <iddo> gmaxwell: why not directly hurt? you devalue my money and steal my purchasing power, so i'm directly a victim, no?
 259 2011-07-23 00:46:49 <gmaxwell> iddo: but it's a machine, in my basement. I never interact with you at all.
 260 2011-07-23 00:47:00 <gmaxwell> Why is copying a dollar unlike copying a record?
 261 2011-07-23 00:47:46 <gmaxwell> My argument would be that we have certian rules for each, so people have establish expectations. A dollar can only be copied by the government. Thats part of the rules for dollars.
 262 2011-07-23 00:48:20 <gmaxwell> Likewise, copyright creates rules for the record. And if the copyright rules are _good_ copyright rules, then we all benefit.
 263 2011-07-23 00:48:31 <gmaxwell> Just like if the rules for the dollar are good rules we all benefit.
 264 2011-07-23 00:48:45 <freewil> gmaxwell, hehe government can steal, but the citizens cant
 265 2011-07-23 00:49:05 <iddo> but we dont benefit from either the copyright rules or the fiat money rules
 266 2011-07-23 00:49:37 <freewil> iddo, copyright laws are meant to protect creative people's work from being ripped off
 267 2011-07-23 00:49:37 <gmaxwell> freewil: thats less crazy than it sounds: copying isn't stealing. And ideally we could trust the government to copy the dollar responsibly. If we can't we have bigger problems. (and I agree we can't and that we have bigger problems)
 268 2011-07-23 00:50:19 Evious has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 269 2011-07-23 00:50:26 <iddo> ripped off is nonsense
 270 2011-07-23 00:50:26 <freewil> gmaxwell, my point is if i cant steal someone's money by counterfeiting why should the government be able to?
 271 2011-07-23 00:51:01 <mistil> the GUI requires significantly higher fees than the network.
 272 2011-07-23 00:51:09 <gmaxwell> freewil: because you and the government are not moral equals. If the goverment is not corrupt it reflects the interests of all the people.
 273 2011-07-23 00:51:24 <mistil> ive heard this is an attempt to combat spam, but that doesnt make sense - spammers don't use the gui
 274 2011-07-23 00:51:41 <gmaxwell> mistil: You willfully ignored the explination.
 275 2011-07-23 00:52:00 <jrmithdobbs> this again
 276 2011-07-23 00:52:02 <jrmithdobbs> really
 277 2011-07-23 00:52:06 <gmaxwell> The fees required by the network are there to fight spam. The fees required by the GUI are there to prevent the former from breaking things.
 278 2011-07-23 00:52:08 thefinn93 has joined
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 280 2011-07-23 00:52:26 <iddo> gmaxwell: so you're ok with stealing if the majority decides to steal from you?
 281 2011-07-23 00:52:28 <gmaxwell> The gap between them is because people don't upgrade instantly, so the gui must enforce older rules than the network.
 282 2011-07-23 00:52:32 <mistil> gmaxwell: the disparity is pretty wide. the gui charges a lot more fees than it needs to.
 283 2011-07-23 00:52:53 sacarlson has joined
 284 2011-07-23 00:52:55 <jrmithdobbs> mistil: so go modify your client
 285 2011-07-23 00:53:17 <gmaxwell> mistil: the gui rules will move to match the network rules in a version or two when the network catches up.
 286 2011-07-23 00:53:26 <gmaxwell> Encourage people to upgrade to .24 to hasten this process, please!
 287 2011-07-23 00:53:50 <freewil> gmaxwell, I disagree. Even if a government isn't "corrupt" it can be taken over by the majority. If someone can't steal from one person why does it make it ok for the same people to vote to steal from their fellow citizens. Being a government entity doesnt give it a higher moral ground
 288 2011-07-23 00:53:53 <gmaxwell> (and for the reason that prior to .24 has connectivity and segmentation problems)
 289 2011-07-23 00:54:03 <gmaxwell> freewil: you keep using the word steal.
 290 2011-07-23 00:54:14 <gmaxwell> freewil: do you use steal to refer to copyright infringement too?
 291 2011-07-23 00:54:14 <mistil> gmaxwell: there is no way for the GUI to predict what the network will accept or not. users should simply decide for themselves what quality of service they want by choosing the approriate fee
 292 2011-07-23 00:54:20 <freewil> gmaxwell, no
 293 2011-07-23 00:54:28 thefinn93 has left ()
 294 2011-07-23 00:54:35 <iddo> gmaxwell: you're the one who said you're okay with the gov stealing your purchasing power via inflation
 295 2011-07-23 00:54:35 <freewil> gmaxwell, you were talking about counterfeiting
 296 2011-07-23 00:54:45 <gmaxwell> freewil: moreover, the rules of the dollar have long said the government can print them. You can choose not to use the dollar.
 297 2011-07-23 00:54:58 <mistil> however, i assume there are enough nodes upgrading so that a gui wont get permanently stuck talking to old nodes
 298 2011-07-23 00:55:03 <gmaxwell> iddo: Copying is not stealing.
 299 2011-07-23 00:55:07 Sedra has joined
 300 2011-07-23 00:55:26 <iddo> it's the same effect in case of fiat money
 301 2011-07-23 00:55:28 <phantomcircuit> 17 packets transmitted, 17 received, 0% packet loss, time 16005ms
 302 2011-07-23 00:55:29 <phantomcircuit> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 45.372/485.460/2070.641/512.466 ms, pipe 3
 303 2011-07-23 00:55:37 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, >.>
 304 2011-07-23 00:55:37 <iddo> stealing money from your wallet, or printing more money
 305 2011-07-23 00:55:42 <gmaxwell> mistil: now? probably. But there weren't at the prior release because it introduced the new ones to the network.
 306 2011-07-23 00:55:47 osmosis has joined
 307 2011-07-23 00:55:48 <BlueMatt> copying is simply breaking an agreement you made when you bought something
 308 2011-07-23 00:55:57 <BlueMatt> the license
 309 2011-07-23 00:56:00 <freewil> gmaxwell, actually how it works now is the Fed creates the credit. And to best of my knowledge they are forbidden from directly printing money by buying US Treasuries. But they play this charade with the investment banks
 310 2011-07-23 00:56:07 <mistil> then what happens when the fee is raised, but you have an old gui with the lower fee.. there will never be syncrhonization, so the fee has to be chosen in another way by observing actual network activity
 311 2011-07-23 00:56:20 FractalUniverse has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
 312 2011-07-23 00:56:28 <gmaxwell> mistil: no one has yet come up with a good way to do that, but it would be nice.
 313 2011-07-23 00:56:28 <iddo> gmaxwell: why are you ok with gov stealing your purchasing power?
 314 2011-07-23 00:56:43 <gmaxwell> I didn't say I was okay with it. I'm using bitcoins because I'm not!
 315 2011-07-23 00:56:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: mistil sipa has been working on one, though I think he has more pressing matters
 316 2011-07-23 00:57:03 Tiraspol has joined
 317 2011-07-23 00:57:14 <iddo> gmaxwell: you said the gov and individuals are not morally equal, so that was the implication...
 318 2011-07-23 00:57:20 <mistil> i dont think its a big deal at all.. im happy to pay the fees (its a lot lower than any altnerative method of payment)
 319 2011-07-23 00:57:27 Animeking has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 320 2011-07-23 00:58:03 <freewil> Hitler's actions were morally acceptable because he was the government
 321 2011-07-23 00:58:13 <gmaxwell> iddo: I'm not okay with it in the sense that I think it's a bad deal for me.
 322 2011-07-23 00:58:39 <gmaxwell> freewil: I never said that being the government magically made things all right either, come now.
 323 2011-07-23 00:59:01 eastender has joined
 324 2011-07-23 00:59:04 <freewil> alright alright
 325 2011-07-23 00:59:12 <gmaxwell> Just because I think it's wrong to draw a parallel between the goverment and John Doe doesn't mean I think the government has ultimately moral authority either.
 326 2011-07-23 00:59:16 <gmaxwell> :)
 327 2011-07-23 00:59:45 <gmaxwell> iddo: But I dunno about you, but I've understood the inflationary behavior of USD my whole adult life, and I have many other options.
 328 2011-07-23 01:00:08 <iddo> i still havent heard a sensible argument for law the prohibits copying...
 329 2011-07-23 01:00:11 <gmaxwell> It's hard for me to conclude that the system working the way it's worked my whole life, the way many people expect it to work, is a kind of theft.
 330 2011-07-23 01:00:29 <freewil> gmaxwell, the thing is most people dont. And the working poor can't do much to defend themselves against their government's injury
 331 2011-07-23 01:00:47 <gmaxwell> iddo: Well, you failed to accept the parallel I drew, but I don't understand why. You don't think it's okay for joe blow to copy money, but you think all laws againts copying records would be wrong?
 332 2011-07-23 01:00:56 <freewil> iddo, i havent heard a reason why we shouldn't protect people's creative work
 333 2011-07-23 01:00:58 <upb> cuqa: if you have control over the reverse zone or the isp delegates that control in some kind of web interface, you can make an ip resolve to anything
 334 2011-07-23 01:00:59 <iddo> the point about inflation that it's easier to extract money from people that way, instead of vi taxation
 335 2011-07-23 01:01:03 <gmaxwell> freewil: the poor keep fairly little USD, is the harm great?
 336 2011-07-23 01:01:25 <freewil> gmaxwell, thats the thing. Their wages are being devalued, not their non-existent savings
 337 2011-07-23 01:01:35 <gmaxwell> (I agree that the more wealthy the more ability you have to escape it though)
 338 2011-07-23 01:01:38 <cuqa> kthx
 339 2011-07-23 01:01:41 <iddo> freewil: i'll paste again what i wrote
 340 2011-07-23 01:01:51 gjs278 has joined
 341 2011-07-23 01:01:53 <gmaxwell> Oh. Okay. You're right, and I feel stupid for not seeing that.
 342 2011-07-23 01:02:15 <iddo> their premise is that someone shouldnt be allowed to "steal" the profits that you supposedly should get
 343 2011-07-23 01:02:23 <freewil> gmaxwell, plus inflationary pushes you into higher tax brackets
 344 2011-07-23 01:02:29 <gmaxwell> I could go ultralibertarian on you and say "well, its their own fault for not negoiating CPI corrected pay", but I'm by no means a ultralibertarian.
 345 2011-07-23 01:02:38 <iddo> ^^ laws against copying don't make sense
 346 2011-07-23 01:02:50 <iddo> it's like, if i build a house next to yours and lowers the value of you house, did i commit a crime? it's same premise, that i denied you profits that you thought that you should have
 347 2011-07-23 01:02:51 <gmaxwell> freewil: I don't have much sympathy on that count, go look at historic tax brackets.
 348 2011-07-23 01:03:09 <freewil> gmaxwell, thats besides the points
 349 2011-07-23 01:03:11 <iddo> or if i'm a restaurant critic and wrote bad review on your restaurant, did i commit a crime?
 350 2011-07-23 01:03:15 <gmaxwell> iddo: why can't I take everything you've said and stick in the dollar instead?
 351 2011-07-23 01:03:32 ewal has joined
 352 2011-07-23 01:04:11 <iddo> gmaxwell: if you take everything i say, you can have the dollar, and others currencies can compete with it (no legal tender laws)
 353 2011-07-23 01:04:20 <iddo> the dollar will lose immediately
 354 2011-07-23 01:04:26 <iddo> because paper can be copied
 355 2011-07-23 01:05:12 <gmaxwell> freewil: I don't think it is, it doesn't matter economically if cash inflates if they also adjust the brackets in the opposite direction.
 356 2011-07-23 01:05:41 <freewil> gmaxwell, that's my point though, notice how tax brackets aren't tied to the CPI
 357 2011-07-23 01:06:44 <freewil> gmaxwell, politicians can essentially avoid the legislative process of raising taxes simply by creating inflation
 358 2011-07-23 01:07:27 <gmaxwell> indeed, but would it be unethical for them to accomplish exactly the same thing the other way?
 359 2011-07-23 01:07:57 <iddo> it's not exactly the same
 360 2011-07-23 01:08:06 <freewil> gmaxwell, well thats a different argument to be had, perhaps more honest, more moral
 361 2011-07-23 01:08:09 <iddo> direct taxation make people see what's going on more clearly
 362 2011-07-23 01:08:24 <gmaxwell> ha. payroll deductions totally break that.
 363 2011-07-23 01:08:33 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 364 2011-07-23 01:08:54 <twobits> yeah, but payroll decudutions are a temp. measure, they will remove those right after the war ends right?
 365 2011-07-23 01:08:57 <twobits> ww II that is
 366 2011-07-23 01:09:02 <gmaxwell> then again, a significant portion of america doesn't pay federal income tax at all.
 367 2011-07-23 01:09:18 <iddo> ok we can get rid of deductions :)
 368 2011-07-23 01:09:46 <iddo> there are some countries in europe where people get sent each year a document that says exactly on what their tax dollars were spent?
 369 2011-07-23 01:09:54 <iddo> that would be nice to have...
 370 2011-07-23 01:09:56 <gmaxwell> Sounds like a great idea to me.
 371 2011-07-23 01:10:10 <gmaxwell> Some local governments in the US do that.
 372 2011-07-23 01:10:21 <freewil> gmaxwell, yeah it would be nice if i could spend my money how i wanted to
 373 2011-07-23 01:11:02 <gmaxwell> freewil: well, I'm perfectly happy with the idea that there needs to be some shared infrastructure that can most efficiently be funded by forcing everyone to pay for it
 374 2011-07-23 01:11:52 <freewil> i got a bonus check last month and before the money was even deposited in my bank the government got it's dirty hands on 30% of it and sent it to the banks and military industrial complex
 375 2011-07-23 01:12:11 <iddo> it's not trivial to decide what the infrastructure should be in this method... different people have different ideas
 376 2011-07-23 01:12:25 <gmaxwell> (natural monopoly infrastructure, especially ones that fall deep inside supply chains, roads for example)
 377 2011-07-23 01:12:50 <b4epoche_> and for the most part people are stupid…  I'd hate to have 'the average American' deciding things
 378 2011-07-23 01:12:57 <gmaxwell> (e.g. even if you never use a road personally you still are benefiting greatly from everyone else having them)
 379 2011-07-23 01:13:28 <freewil> b4epoche, yeah because id rather have this asshole running the country: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64yhiih53F4
 380 2011-07-23 01:13:39 <iddo> not so clear why paying tax for road makes more sense than paying fee when using road...
 381 2011-07-23 01:13:40 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: I dunno, the average american thinks that NASA is something like 20% of our budget and the military is 5%.
 382 2011-07-23 01:13:41 <freewil> don't pay attention sheeple the professional politicians are in charge
 383 2011-07-23 01:13:46 <gmaxwell> I could live with the breakdown. ;)
 384 2011-07-23 01:13:58 <senseles> most americans pay 0% in taxes
 385 2011-07-23 01:14:08 <gmaxwell> senseles: 0% in federal income tax at least.
 386 2011-07-23 01:14:11 <iddo> 0% income taxes
 387 2011-07-23 01:14:12 <b4epoche_> obama is completely correct there...
 388 2011-07-23 01:14:14 <senseles> the reason there are tax breaks for the rich is because they're the only ones who are required to pay taxes due to their income level
 389 2011-07-23 01:14:22 <gmaxwell> It's not like social security isn't really a tax.
 390 2011-07-23 01:14:25 <senseles> pisses me off when people say "tax the rich!"
 391 2011-07-23 01:14:39 <freewil> b4epoche, you're part of the problem then
 392 2011-07-23 01:14:40 <b4epoche_> well except for maybe the Republicans that got into office on the 'vote for me because I'm as dumb as you' idea
 393 2011-07-23 01:14:56 <freewil> b4epoche, don't start with this red team blue team bullshit
 394 2011-07-23 01:14:56 <gmaxwell> senseles: to be fair, if you correct the effective tax rate against inflation— the rich are doing pretty well by historical standards.
 395 2011-07-23 01:15:18 <senseles> well sure, but it's a constant battle against all the welfare recipients
 396 2011-07-23 01:15:34 <freewil> this is the problem
 397 2011-07-23 01:15:35 <senseles> socialism pisses me off
 398 2011-07-23 01:15:39 <twobits> I find that hard to believe when you have a 14% fica that kicks in at $ one
 399 2011-07-23 01:15:40 <gmaxwell> dude, welfare = bread and circus.
 400 2011-07-23 01:15:42 <freewil> we shouldnt be arguing about who gets to loot the govenment
 401 2011-07-23 01:15:43 Sedra- has joined
 402 2011-07-23 01:15:59 <freewil> we all need to stop the government
 403 2011-07-23 01:16:00 <gmaxwell> People who are not desperately poor are people who are not looting my house.
 404 2011-07-23 01:16:04 <freewil> the government is injurying us
 405 2011-07-23 01:16:10 <freewil> they take our money and give it to the banks
 406 2011-07-23 01:16:14 <davex__> freewil, loot the government?  isn't that what robin hood did?
 407 2011-07-23 01:16:15 <freewil> they are injurying us
 408 2011-07-23 01:16:21 <b4epoche_> wow, this room sure attracts the fringe
 409 2011-07-23 01:16:33 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: you only just noticed this? :(
 410 2011-07-23 01:16:36 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: you are surprised, its bitcoin?
 411 2011-07-23 01:16:41 <freewil> b4epoche, you're stuck in blue team vs red team wresting matches?
 412 2011-07-23 01:17:04 <freewil> davex__, yes
 413 2011-07-23 01:17:10 <b4epoche_> has an algorithm for voting…
 414 2011-07-23 01:17:15 * b4epoche_ doesn't do politics
 415 2011-07-23 01:17:22 <gmaxwell> The government is an instution of the people (still). If it's sick its sick because we're sick as a people.
 416 2011-07-23 01:17:35 <freewil> gmaxwell, agreed
 417 2011-07-23 01:17:37 Sedra has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 418 2011-07-23 01:17:43 <senseles> Thats because we circumvent evolution
 419 2011-07-23 01:17:58 <senseles> with socialism
 420 2011-07-23 01:18:02 <davex__> gmaxwell: you spineless minarchist, you.
 421 2011-07-23 01:18:11 <gmaxwell> senseles: dude, evolution is brutal.
 422 2011-07-23 01:18:14 <freewil> theres this constant battle of who gets to pay least into the gov and who gets to loot the gov the most
 423 2011-07-23 01:18:17 <senseles> no one said it wasnt
 424 2011-07-23 01:18:25 Joric has joined
 425 2011-07-23 01:18:29 <iddo> i just wanted to hear a sensible argument in favor of copyrights:(  ah well..
 426 2011-07-23 01:18:29 <freewil> we need to stop allowing the government to take our money in the first place
 427 2011-07-23 01:18:32 Joric has quit (Changing host)
 428 2011-07-23 01:18:32 Joric has joined
 429 2011-07-23 01:18:39 <gmaxwell> Take a bunch of welfare people and tell them no bread and circus— survival of the fittest.  Some will die. The rest will set fire to my fkin house!
 430 2011-07-23 01:18:39 <mistil> if you want to know where your tax $ goes, i encourage you to read the today's GAO audit of the Fed bailout: http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf
 431 2011-07-23 01:18:51 <freewil> mistil, +100
 432 2011-07-23 01:19:03 <senseles> sensible argument in favor of copyrights? uh, if I make something I will not copyright it and just keep it a secret and to myself because theres no incentive for me to share it
 433 2011-07-23 01:19:04 <mistil> the number is $16 trillion
 434 2011-07-23 01:19:16 <senseles> if there were no copyrights that is
 435 2011-07-23 01:19:26 <twobits> argument for copyrights?   Someone should be able to profit off their work, so giving them a time limited monopoly on it encourages its creation and publication....
 436 2011-07-23 01:19:33 <davex__> gmaxwell: getting rid of welfare does not imply those things.
 437 2011-07-23 01:19:37 <gmaxwell> senseles: no, you'll instead spend your time doing something else because authoring doesn't pay worth shit.
 438 2011-07-23 01:19:40 <davex__> gmaxwell: at least not welfare by coercion
 439 2011-07-23 01:19:59 <b4epoche_> here we go…  lets do copyright enforcement the 'evolutionary' way…  you copy my stuff, I kill you
 440 2011-07-23 01:20:05 <gmaxwell> oy. I'm not going to battle the uberlibertarians tonight. :)
 441 2011-07-23 01:20:10 moa7 has joined
 442 2011-07-23 01:20:15 <senseles> gmaxwell: thats why you need to protect yourself :)
 443 2011-07-23 01:20:28 <gmaxwell> Gah. Are we men or are we animals?
 444 2011-07-23 01:20:34 <senseles> we are animals
 445 2011-07-23 01:20:50 <gmaxwell> Besides, thing economically. Fighting over everything is simply inefficient.
 446 2011-07-23 01:20:51 <mistil> through 6 new lending programs created by the Fed (programs that accepted trash for crash - toxic assets for enormous loans), they ended up lending out $16 trillion (or ~20% more than US GDP) to a handful of banks ($4 trillion went to foreign institutions)
 447 2011-07-23 01:20:51 <senseles> homo sapiens..
 448 2011-07-23 01:21:04 <iddo> they can try to profit from their works as they wish, the claim that i deny their supposed profit by copying their work is flase
 449 2011-07-23 01:21:07 <gmaxwell> I have other shit to do than booby trap my yard against bands of raiders.
 450 2011-07-23 01:21:14 <senseles> gmaxwell: ya, but after the world population is reduced by 1/2-2/3 what would the world look like then?
 451 2011-07-23 01:21:15 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-politics
 452 2011-07-23 01:21:15 <mistil> i think most americans were under the impresion the bailout (TARP) was only $800 bn, but that doesn't count the special programs the Fed created
 453 2011-07-23 01:21:19 <davex__> gmaxwell: true.  herman-hoppe addresses that.  aggression is too expensive.
 454 2011-07-23 01:21:26 <senseles> gmaxwell: once all the useless eaters are out of the way
 455 2011-07-23 01:21:38 <twobits> if they get no suppossed profit from copying their work, they would stop doing it.
 456 2011-07-23 01:21:48 <twobits> you don't need to concern yourself if their profit is false or not, they do
 457 2011-07-23 01:22:05 <iddo> so let them stop doing it... like stop producing dumb hollywood movies
 458 2011-07-23 01:22:24 <mistil> citigroup was the top borrower under the feds 16 trillion bailout: they got $2.5 trillion, or enough cash to buy Google 13 times over
 459 2011-07-23 01:22:26 <twobits> fine with me.
 460 2011-07-23 01:22:26 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-libertarians or similar please ;)
 461 2011-07-23 01:22:27 <iddo> and a good example is free software, where they dont stop doing it
 462 2011-07-23 01:22:33 <gmaxwell> Besides, if anarchry or uberlibertarianism were more efficient it should have already out compeated the fat and bloated old US.. in any of the many failed states in africa and the former soviet places which have had a chance to go that way.
 463 2011-07-23 01:22:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, sorry. I'm totally guilty of feeding the discussion.
 464 2011-07-23 01:22:49 <b4epoche_> if the idiots in this country would stop spending their money on dumb hollywood movies, they'd stop making them
 465 2011-07-23 01:22:56 <twobits> its a good example that no all profits and incentives are monitary is all
 466 2011-07-23 01:23:03 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 467 2011-07-23 01:23:10 <davex__> meh.  #bitcoin-dev has always had some overlap with #uberlibertarian
 468 2011-07-23 01:23:12 <zeropointo> senseles: socialism is evolution too. it's just a different selective pressure.
 469 2011-07-23 01:23:17 <iddo> the point is that it shouldnt be illegal to copy, because denying your supposed profits isn't stealing
 470 2011-07-23 01:23:30 <BlueMatt> davex__: has in the past != should continue to have
 471 2011-07-23 01:23:36 <senseles> Perhaps i should have clarified. Natural evolution.
 472 2011-07-23 01:23:39 <twobits> has nothing to do with profits, has to do with rights to access.
 473 2011-07-23 01:23:45 <twobits> if I create something, do I or do I not own it?
 474 2011-07-23 01:23:56 <b4epoche_> iddo:  that's just rationalizing things...
 475 2011-07-23 01:24:17 <b4epoche_> have you ever sold something you created?
 476 2011-07-23 01:24:18 <zeropointo> senseles: if we're animals like you say then it's also natural evolution.
 477 2011-07-23 01:24:23 <iddo> you own it, but if i copy it, you still have what you own, and i have a copy
 478 2011-07-23 01:24:29 <senseles> iddo: profits are irrelevant its unauthorized distribution of a material you do not own
 479 2011-07-23 01:24:38 <davex__> bluematt: besides people here weren't too keen to answer my dev questions regarding the git repo earlier. :/  so i don't really give a shit.
 480 2011-07-23 01:24:53 <senseles> you did not make it, you have no right to reproduce it in anyway without the original creators authorization
 481 2011-07-23 01:25:11 <BlueMatt> davex__: thats because it gets buried under piles of #uberlibertarian stuff
 482 2011-07-23 01:25:15 <freewil> bitcoin to me is an idealized outcome of libertarianism :)
 483 2011-07-23 01:25:16 <iddo> senseles: no right to copy it? why not?
 484 2011-07-23 01:25:16 <davex__> bluematt: lol
 485 2011-07-23 01:25:18 <twobits> that is what allows digital goods to have very low marginal costs.
 486 2011-07-23 01:25:23 <twobits> it is not what justifies theft
 487 2011-07-23 01:25:30 <senseles> iddo: because you don't own it, you didn't create it.
 488 2011-07-23 01:25:41 <iddo> senseles: so?
 489 2011-07-23 01:25:45 <senseles> LOL
 490 2011-07-23 01:25:49 <senseles> that says it all
 491 2011-07-23 01:25:52 <twobits> so you are a theif.
 492 2011-07-23 01:26:01 <iddo> you abuse the word theft
 493 2011-07-23 01:26:06 <twobits> if you take something you agree is someones property on terms they did not want
 494 2011-07-23 01:26:08 <twobits> no
 495 2011-07-23 01:26:11 <senseles> I'm going to come take your car and house iddo
 496 2011-07-23 01:26:13 <senseles> because I want to
 497 2011-07-23 01:26:14 <twobits> you abuse the concept of not taking
 498 2011-07-23 01:26:25 <senseles> I feel I should have the right, so im just going to do it
 499 2011-07-23 01:26:42 <gmaxwell> davex__: one cool thing is that people of broad political beliefs can all support bitcoin.
 500 2011-07-23 01:26:49 <senseles> i didn't create it, or purchase it, or have authorization, but im going to do it anyway
 501 2011-07-23 01:26:52 <iddo> theft is when i take someone that you had, so now i have it and you dont have it anymore, the language allows you to use the word 'copy' to distinguish between differnt notions
 502 2011-07-23 01:26:59 <mistil> a handful of bankrupt financial institutions got rewarded with the equivalent of 15 months of US GDP ($16+ trillion in hard cash [there was only around $1.5 trillion of subprime loans outstanding in 2008 for comparison]). the largest heist in history
 503 2011-07-23 01:27:06 <davex__> gmaxwell: agree
 504 2011-07-23 01:27:16 <genjix> this channel is too much spam + noob questions rather than dev talk :p
 505 2011-07-23 01:27:22 <genjix> it's why #bitcoin exists.
 506 2011-07-23 01:27:24 genjix has left ()
 507 2011-07-23 01:27:39 <iddo> ok sorry
 508 2011-07-23 01:27:42 <b4epoche_> iddo:  how about this, I hound you and your boss until your boss finally fires you and you have no way to make a living?
 509 2011-07-23 01:27:46 <twobits> no, theft is when you take something without due contract with its owner
 510 2011-07-23 01:27:50 <iddo> i brought it up because of the JSTOR story
 511 2011-07-23 01:28:20 <iddo> take!=copy
 512 2011-07-23 01:28:37 <senseles> unauthorized distribution = theft
 513 2011-07-23 01:28:45 <senseles> that applies to anything
 514 2011-07-23 01:28:49 <senseles> fake disney dolls
 515 2011-07-23 01:28:53 <senseles> to software and movies
 516 2011-07-23 01:28:56 <b4epoche_> iddo:  or how about I just come do your job for free?
 517 2011-07-23 01:28:57 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-copyright or similar please ;)
 518 2011-07-23 01:29:01 <twobits> did you take the copy?
 519 2011-07-23 01:29:27 <iddo> senseles: but the actual supposed offense is that i denied your supposed profits, which shouldnt be illegal
 520 2011-07-23 01:29:29 <twobits> in order to make the copy, you had to at some point have access to the orginal
 521 2011-07-23 01:29:29 <senseles> sorry ill stop feeding him
 522 2011-07-23 01:29:36 <zeropointo> #bitcoin-begging is availible
 523 2011-07-23 01:29:42 <twobits> if osmeone break in a takes your keys, and then copies them for later access and returns it
 524 2011-07-23 01:29:48 <twobits> they still stole and toke the keys
 525 2011-07-23 01:29:52 <twobits> took
 526 2011-07-23 01:30:01 <iddo> like if i build another house next to your and lower the value of your house, its not illegal, regardless of supposed profits you thought you have
 527 2011-07-23 01:30:35 <twobits> no that is not the offence, that is an argured consquence of the defence, that you use becuase you can say I would not have every valued it enough to buy it , so no loss of profits
 528 2011-07-23 01:30:39 <twobits> but I do value it enough to steal it
 529 2011-07-23 01:30:59 <iddo> if thats not the offense then it's a victimless crime
 530 2011-07-23 01:31:01 <senseles> I wonder why the impulse to argue with someone on the internet who's wrong is so strong?
 531 2011-07-23 01:31:13 <twobits> so you twist things, because in our minds we always need to feel we are doing things that are not really wrong
 532 2011-07-23 01:32:00 <twobits> it has a victum, the creator of the work that did not want to distriute under the terms you decided to impose
 533 2011-07-23 01:32:26 osmosis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 534 2011-07-23 01:32:28 <iddo> he's a victim because i denied his supposed profits, no?
 535 2011-07-23 01:32:29 <zeropointo> twobits: good point
 536 2011-07-23 01:32:31 <twobits> no
 537 2011-07-23 01:32:37 <twobits> you are the only one focusing on profits
 538 2011-07-23 01:32:43 <twobits> has zero to do with that
 539 2011-07-23 01:32:44 <iddo> then why did he want to distribute it?
 540 2011-07-23 01:32:48 <twobits> ask him
 541 2011-07-23 01:32:53 <twobits> people have different reasons
 542 2011-07-23 01:33:03 <iddo> what would be another reason?
 543 2011-07-23 01:33:06 <twobits> but if you agree it is his property as the creator, he ahs the right to set the terms
 544 2011-07-23 01:33:10 <senseles> iddo: are you french by chance?
 545 2011-07-23 01:33:19 <iddo> no
 546 2011-07-23 01:33:39 <freewil> iddo, you seem to be anti-profits
 547 2011-07-23 01:33:46 <iddo> freewil: no
 548 2011-07-23 01:33:50 <freewil> iddo, what if i just want the credit
 549 2011-07-23 01:33:53 <freewil> iddo, the social credit
 550 2011-07-23 01:34:06 <iddo> my point was that law should be based on contract law, not copyrights
 551 2011-07-23 01:34:20 <twobits> thats a big part of the OSS ... non profit rewards, but rewards non the less
 552 2011-07-23 01:34:24 <freewil> iddo, i think i agree, but isnt copyright just like a default contract?
 553 2011-07-23 01:34:34 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 554 2011-07-23 01:34:47 <freewil> iddo, you can always write your own license/contract
 555 2011-07-23 01:34:55 <twobits> if it was only about profits, the gpl suits to get source code released for the routers and such would never have had any traction
 556 2011-07-23 01:35:04 <senseles> iddo: just go create something, pay millions of $ of your own money to do it, and let me know how it feels to have it stolen
 557 2011-07-23 01:35:12 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 558 2011-07-23 01:35:15 <iddo> if i buy win7 from microsoft, i can have contract with microsoft, but if someone came to my house to water my plants while i was away, and copied my win7, he didnt commit a crime, because he didnt have contract with microsoft
 559 2011-07-23 01:35:31 <senseles> he did commit a crime
 560 2011-07-23 01:35:35 <senseles> against you
 561 2011-07-23 01:35:40 <upb> calm down and listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2ftCitvyQ
 562 2011-07-23 01:35:46 <senseles> you're the authorized holder of that liscence
 563 2011-07-23 01:35:52 <twobits> he did commit a crime,  and you are luck he did, otherwise it would be you commiting the crime for not protecting it as per your contract with ms
 564 2011-07-23 01:36:20 <iddo> but he didnt have a contract with me that says he's not allowed to copy my win7 ?
 565 2011-07-23 01:36:28 <senseles> cant spell today :/
 566 2011-07-23 01:36:37 <senseles> he doesnt need one
 567 2011-07-23 01:36:39 <b4epoche_> calm down and go find Trailer Park Boys on piratebay…  it's hilarious
 568 2011-07-23 01:36:40 <iddo> what is the crime ?
 569 2011-07-23 01:36:45 <senseles> breaking and entering
 570 2011-07-23 01:36:52 <freewil> iddo, he would be using your property without your permission
 571 2011-07-23 01:36:52 <twobits> so the default is you are allowed to take anything unless you have a contract that says you cant?
 572 2011-07-23 01:36:52 <iddo> seems like victimless crime...
 573 2011-07-23 01:36:55 <senseles> misdemeanor theft
 574 2011-07-23 01:37:03 <freewil> iddo, its like if i took a jet ski for the day and returned it
 575 2011-07-23 01:37:05 <senseles> punishable by up to 1 year in jail
 576 2011-07-23 01:37:07 <twobits> dwho was it asking where iddo lived?  I want to know too, free stuff it seems.
 577 2011-07-23 01:37:07 <iddo> i let him enter, to water my plants:)
 578 2011-07-23 01:37:09 <freewil> iddo, paid no rent or anything
 579 2011-07-23 01:37:16 <senseles> (well, depending on where you live)
 580 2011-07-23 01:37:25 <twobits> and you used bad judgement in who you picked to do so it seems.
 581 2011-07-23 01:37:46 <b4epoche_> actually, Trailer Park Boys is /very/ appropriate for this conversation…  they justify all their crimes just like people here are
 582 2011-07-23 01:37:50 <senseles> iddo: you're the victim as he stole the license you were authorized from MS to use and own
 583 2011-07-23 01:38:34 <iddo> if my license said i'm not allowed to let others copy it, then i was dumb to sign such a license...
 584 2011-07-23 01:39:02 <senseles> well you agreed to it when you installed windows
 585 2011-07-23 01:39:11 <twobits> guess you don't have win7 then
 586 2011-07-23 01:39:13 <b4epoche_> iddo:  so you force your belief system on me?
 587 2011-07-23 01:39:27 <twobits> or you are dumb
 588 2011-07-23 01:39:30 <iddo> huh?
 589 2011-07-23 01:39:39 <iddo> i force my belief system?
 590 2011-07-23 01:40:01 <mistil> ive seen all the TPB episodes
 591 2011-07-23 01:40:11 <iddo> i thought i'm being forced to pay taxes for the police to enforce copyright law :)
 592 2011-07-23 01:40:13 <mistil> i wonder if theyre gonna do a new season ever
 593 2011-07-23 01:40:23 <twobits> ah that is a recent change
 594 2011-07-23 01:40:31 <twobits> copyright was always historical cival law
 595 2011-07-23 01:40:38 <twobits> I think it still should be
 596 2011-07-23 01:40:53 <mistil> the police are evil
 597 2011-07-23 01:41:14 <senseles> i kind of like government enforcement of copyright law
 598 2011-07-23 01:41:21 <b4epoche_> mistil:  I think they're doing other things…  Happy Fun Hour or something
 599 2011-07-23 01:41:46 <senseles> criminal punishment and the like
 600 2011-07-23 01:41:58 <senseles> so many chinese knock off products on the market it should definitely be illegal to sell them
 601 2011-07-23 01:41:59 <b4epoche_> iddo:  you steal my copy of Lion and then tell me I'm stupid for agreeing to the license?
 602 2011-07-23 01:42:06 <davex__> senseles, read kinsella?
 603 2011-07-23 01:42:09 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-copyright or similar please ;)
 604 2011-07-23 01:42:18 <senseles> kinsella?
 605 2011-07-23 01:42:20 <davex__> ok, heading over there. :)
 606 2011-07-23 01:42:25 <senseles> bluematt: sorry i got sucked in again :/
 607 2011-07-23 01:42:32 <twobits> I don', as it really is a waste of money to pursue every twobit theft...     they cases get out of hand when there is no costs to persuing them
 608 2011-07-23 01:42:36 <freewil> OK IM BITING #bitcoin-copyright
 609 2011-07-23 01:42:37 <twobits> we also need a loser pays system
 610 2011-07-23 01:42:43 <BlueMatt> hey, I dont care, just go to #bitcoin-copyright
 611 2011-07-23 01:42:52 <iddo> b4epoche_: copy, not steal
 612 2011-07-23 01:43:37 <twobits> steal by copying you mean
 613 2011-07-23 01:44:15 <freewil> well i think i agree with iddo
 614 2011-07-23 01:44:19 <freewil> it isnt stealing
 615 2011-07-23 01:44:26 <freewil> in that i take something and now you dont have it
 616 2011-07-23 01:44:27 osmosis has joined
 617 2011-07-23 01:44:31 <iddo> isn't it stupid to make yourself liable to anyone who might easily copy it? of course it's not stupid right now, because copyright law says the copier commit a crime
 618 2011-07-23 01:44:38 <b4epoche_> tell me that when you're trying to make a living and feed a family
 619 2011-07-23 01:44:41 <freewil> but it is freeriding
 620 2011-07-23 01:45:23 <freewil> b4epoche, you make the assumption that someone who violates copyright would pay if they didnt steal it
 621 2011-07-23 01:45:34 <freewil> b4epoche, but i think its more just semantics
 622 2011-07-23 01:45:48 <freewil> i still think it's morally wrong
 623 2011-07-23 01:45:53 <b4epoche_> that's the standard stupid argument people all pull out
 624 2011-07-23 01:46:02 <iddo> b4epoche_: i gave other examples that deny profit from people, like building houses and lowering value of other houses, and restaurant critics... should those be illegal?
 625 2011-07-23 01:47:11 <twobits> so identy theft is not stealing, because I am only copying some of your info?
 626 2011-07-23 01:47:55 <b4epoche_> mistil:  don't you find it funny that TPBs was partially funded by Canadian government?
 627 2011-07-23 01:48:04 <twobits> what are tpbs?
 628 2011-07-23 01:48:06 <upb> haha, the point isnt the copying of info but presenting it
 629 2011-07-23 01:48:07 <iddo> well thats interesting question in general, if you agreed that copying isnt a crime, what about copying and changing the author name to your... :)
 630 2011-07-23 01:48:31 <iddo> that might be fraud, depending on scenario
 631 2011-07-23 01:48:37 <b4epoche_> Trailer Park Boys = TPB
 632 2011-07-23 01:48:59 <mistil> b4epoche: really? haha
 633 2011-07-23 01:49:21 <mistil> tpb is a masterpiece
 634 2011-07-23 01:49:33 <b4epoche_> watch the trailing credits
 635 2011-07-23 01:52:33 abishai has joined
 636 2011-07-23 01:55:00 <Joric> does anyone remember where to get blockexplorer source code?
 637 2011-07-23 01:55:30 <Joric> want to take a look what database structure does it use
 638 2011-07-23 01:56:10 <BlueMatt> dont think its public
 639 2011-07-23 01:57:20 <jgarzik> Joric: 'ABE' clone source code is available
 640 2011-07-23 01:57:27 <jgarzik> BBE is closed source
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 642 2011-07-23 02:03:02 <Joric> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-explorer looks interesting
 643 2011-07-23 02:04:05 <b4epoche_> mistil:  http://snapplr.com/s1c2
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 683 2011-07-23 03:47:38 <forrestv`> gmaxwell, http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6554331 was this you?
 684 2011-07-23 03:47:59 <gmaxwell> forrestv`: Yes.
 685 2011-07-23 03:53:28 <ewal> gmaxwell: bravo on publishing those
 686 2011-07-23 03:56:21 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: tired of that question and the press inquiries yet? ha
 687 2011-07-23 03:57:15 Workbench has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 688 2011-07-23 03:57:31 IncitatusOnWater has joined
 689 2011-07-23 03:58:26 <IncitatusOnWater> hey tcatm, our free USD site Intersango.us just had it's first trade a couple hours ago but it's not showing on bitcoinwatch for some reason
 690 2011-07-23 03:58:45 <IncitatusOnWater> we accept dwolla and bank transfer
 691 2011-07-23 04:00:44 <upb> what exactly is the problem, not appearing on bitcoinwatch or need to adverties ?^_^
 692 2011-07-23 04:01:08 ewal has quit (Quit: ewal)
 693 2011-07-23 04:01:56 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yes, although some of the supportive emails I've recieved are pretty impressive.
 694 2011-07-23 04:02:02 nevezen has quit (Quit: leaving)
 695 2011-07-23 04:02:20 <jrmithdobbs> has anyone actually gone to press about it yet besides ars?
 696 2011-07-23 04:03:37 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: wired mentioned it, a couple others
 697 2011-07-23 04:04:02 <jgarzik> IncitatusOnWater: are you on a boat?
 698 2011-07-23 04:04:11 <IncitatusOnWater> hehe
 699 2011-07-23 04:04:21 <IncitatusOnWater> you should wikipedia Incitatus jgarzik
 700 2011-07-23 04:04:54 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 701 2011-07-23 04:05:24 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: are real news organizations? wired/ars don't count imho ;p
 702 2011-07-23 04:05:27 <jrmithdobbs> is more what i meant
 703 2011-07-23 04:05:50 <IncitatusOnWater> the wiki doesn't say it but caligula was told when he was a kid, that the chances of him becoming emperor were as likely as him walking over some strait
 704 2011-07-23 04:06:03 * jgarzik was thinking of "I'm On A Boat (Explicit Version)"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avaSdC0QOUM&ob=av2e    SNL/Lonely Island comedy sketch.
 705 2011-07-23 04:06:13 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 706 2011-07-23 04:06:46 <IncitatusOnWater> so when he became dictator, he had a fleet of boats built which align to form the longest bridge by far which ever existed and he rode his favored horse Incitatus across it
 707 2011-07-23 04:07:20 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: cnet, msnbc, mit tech review?
 708 2011-07-23 04:07:30 <jrmithdobbs> ok those count
 709 2011-07-23 04:07:37 <IncitatusOnWater> but he's my favorite historical carachter this horse, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitatus  <--- jgarzik
 710 2011-07-23 04:07:45 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: well, if you want "real news org" we can exclude cbs/nbc/abc/fox/cnn
 711 2011-07-23 04:08:00 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: oh i'm not saying i trust them
 712 2011-07-23 04:08:00 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: NYT will have an article monday which may mention it, but I'm concerned Noam is going to compare Aaron and I with Bradley manning. :-/
 713 2011-07-23 04:08:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Noam Cohen?  He did an article on bitcoin.
 714 2011-07-23 04:08:34 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i'm just wondering more if they're paying any attention to it
 715 2011-07-23 04:08:38 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
 716 2011-07-23 04:08:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: He's worked with my SO on Wikipedia stuff a few times.
 717 2011-07-23 04:08:56 wolfspraul has joined
 718 2011-07-23 04:09:02 <gmaxwell> In fact, I've talked to him in the past about wikipedia stuff, but he didn't appear to remember that.
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 723 2011-07-23 04:15:17 <IncitatusOnWater> gmaxwell, yes he wrote an article about bitcoin, he's written many articles about wikileaks even before they were famous, way before apache
 724 2011-07-23 04:15:23 <IncitatusOnWater> helicopter
 725 2011-07-23 04:16:23 twobits has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 726 2011-07-23 04:16:24 <jgarzik> his bitcoin article was better than most, in terms of facts
 727 2011-07-23 04:17:07 <jgarzik> reporters are so lazy and awful that, should an "I hate bitcoin" article be written with 100% accurate facts, I might actually be pleased
 728 2011-07-23 04:17:17 <gmaxwell> Actual Journalist™  although this isn't actually saying much.
 729 2011-07-23 04:17:36 <gmaxwell> Maybe he'll print my name without scarequotes.
 730 2011-07-23 04:17:57 <jrmithdobbs> ya that amused the hell out of me on the ars article
 731 2011-07-23 04:18:04 <gmaxwell> There are worse ones, in fact.
 732 2011-07-23 04:18:16 underscor has joined
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 734 2011-07-23 04:19:43 <gmaxwell> Really the coverage has all been not so bad. I don't think anyone has said anything completely crazy.
 735 2011-07-23 04:19:50 <IncitatusOnWater> gmaxwell, have you thought about staging something like going to a police station to 'give youself in'
 736 2011-07-23 04:20:02 <IncitatusOnWater> I actually wish I was like drafted to go to war
 737 2011-07-23 04:20:09 <IncitatusOnWater> and I'd just check myself into prison
 738 2011-07-23 04:20:27 <jrmithdobbs> fuckin sweet
 739 2011-07-23 04:20:31 <gmaxwell> The local police would just look at me weird and tell me to go home.
 740 2011-07-23 04:20:36 <IncitatusOnWater> and it would be an awesome thing
 741 2011-07-23 04:20:37 <IncitatusOnWater> to be like
 742 2011-07-23 04:20:40 <IncitatusOnWater> put on a resume
 743 2011-07-23 04:20:49 <IncitatusOnWater> yea but maybe you could get a photo opp
 744 2011-07-23 04:20:50 <IncitatusOnWater> you know
 745 2011-07-23 04:20:52 <IncitatusOnWater> for press
 746 2011-07-23 04:21:03 <IncitatusOnWater> cause just be afraid
 747 2011-07-23 04:21:10 <IncitatusOnWater> look how long it took assange's story to get out
 748 2011-07-23 04:21:11 <jrmithdobbs> now that i got the netatalk 2.2.0-p6 code liberated, built, running, and a successful time machine backup to that disk, timemachine actually works *better* on it than it did the airport
 749 2011-07-23 04:21:20 <gmaxwell> Well, there was absolutely a degree of PR in this, but thats a little over the top.
 750 2011-07-23 04:21:21 <IncitatusOnWater> did you read the July 13th BBC article it was LoL funny
 751 2011-07-23 04:21:45 <IncitatusOnWater> gmaxwell, the public will only get sound bytes
 752 2011-07-23 04:21:57 <da2ce7> ya
 753 2011-07-23 04:21:59 <da2ce7> :)
 754 2011-07-23 04:22:24 <jrmithdobbs> probably related to going from that shit slow arm proc to the atom d525 ;p
 755 2011-07-23 04:22:51 <IncitatusOnWater> there are 3 courts though, so you get 2 appeals and if you have one judge who is not an idiot, if it comes to that, then you'll be fine
 756 2011-07-23 04:23:00 <da2ce7> any publicity is good publicity
 757 2011-07-23 04:23:03 <IncitatusOnWater> and judges are actually smart respectable people for the most part
 758 2011-07-23 04:23:10 <senseles> are they actually going to try to charge you with something?
 759 2011-07-23 04:23:23 <IncitatusOnWater> I hope not
 760 2011-07-23 04:23:29 <senseles> everything you released was public domain right?
 761 2011-07-23 04:23:30 <da2ce7> publishing public domain material?
 762 2011-07-23 04:23:31 <IncitatusOnWater> but i'd still be afraid
 763 2011-07-23 04:23:35 <senseles> if so there should be no recourse
 764 2011-07-23 04:23:37 <da2ce7> is that aganst the law now?
 765 2011-07-23 04:24:16 <gmaxwell> When I release the files _anything_ was possible. (E.g. none of the charges against Aaron are copyright related) But various non-public factors made that a little less likely to begin with, and now that JSTOR is saying the files didn't come from them, even less so.
 766 2011-07-23 04:24:32 <da2ce7> :)
 767 2011-07-23 04:25:27 <gmaxwell> (half the stuff against him is basically making the arguement that by accessing the site outside of the ToS rules, you're hacking)
 768 2011-07-23 04:25:29 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: tbqh i think a stunt like that would be counterproductive
 769 2011-07-23 04:25:45 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: seeing as part of the point is that copyright *should be a civil matter* not criminal
 770 2011-07-23 04:26:10 <IncitatusOnWater> jrmithdobbs, perhaps you're right, idk
 771 2011-07-23 04:26:43 <IncitatusOnWater> I just know dramatic things need to be done for the public to know his side of the story
 772 2011-07-23 04:26:56 <gmaxwell> The dramatic things happened to Aaron.
 773 2011-07-23 04:27:47 <gmaxwell> By making my release I added context to his story and gave it a stronger political message (and decreased the emphasis people were putting on the fact that he hid a laptop in a closet with a buch of disks attached)
 774 2011-07-23 04:28:08 <gmaxwell> and he added the element of danger to my story, considering he was arrested and is facing criminal charges.
 775 2011-07-23 04:28:23 <IncitatusOnWater> gmaxwell, would you be charged with any of those things ?
 776 2011-07-23 04:28:26 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: also the way he's gone about it shows a level of class, no need to pander when what you're doing is legitimately "right" imho
 777 2011-07-23 04:28:31 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.)
 778 2011-07-23 04:28:46 <gmaxwell> Cause if I release the same damn thing six months ago and I wasn't charged half the people wouldn't believe there was any danger at all.
 779 2011-07-23 04:29:17 <gmaxwell> IncitatusOnWater: Well I certantly hope not, but anyone can be charged with anything if you piss off the wrong people.
 780 2011-07-23 04:29:32 <gmaxwell> I'm generally a pretty lawful guy. I fully intend to win any claims brought against me.
 781 2011-07-23 04:29:34 <jrmithdobbs> hooray grand jury rubber stamp :(
 782 2011-07-23 04:30:16 <IncitatusOnWater> gmaxwell, I actually have some respect for the legal process of most countries, sometimes these horror stories you read more into them and it's not as crazy as it sounds
 783 2011-07-23 04:30:18 imsaguy has joined
 784 2011-07-23 04:30:40 <IncitatusOnWater> for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants
 785 2011-07-23 04:30:45 <IncitatusOnWater> do you remember what the press did with that
 786 2011-07-23 04:30:49 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: the US isn't one at this time
 787 2011-07-23 04:30:55 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: lol, i know someone that worked on that case
 788 2011-07-23 04:30:59 <IncitatusOnWater> they talked about it for months but didn't mention the back story just read the front
 789 2011-07-23 04:31:00 <jrmithdobbs> they were criminally negligent as fuck
 790 2011-07-23 04:31:22 <IncitatusOnWater> yea but most of america thinks she's an idiot
 791 2011-07-23 04:31:22 <jrmithdobbs> the shit SCALDED the woman
 792 2011-07-23 04:31:29 <IncitatusOnWater> and she wanted 20k for med bills
 793 2011-07-23 04:31:38 <IncitatusOnWater> and fought for years in the face of abuse basically
 794 2011-07-23 04:31:41 <jrmithdobbs> the problem with it had been reported 2-3 (can't remember) times to them before the incident
 795 2011-07-23 04:32:08 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I'm sorry
 796 2011-07-23 04:32:09 <gmaxwell> When the press talks about cases I try to either ignore it or read the court filings.
 797 2011-07-23 04:32:09 <jrmithdobbs> it wasn't a frivolous suit
 798 2011-07-23 04:32:17 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Coffee is brewed at 200F
 799 2011-07-23 04:32:21 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|That will scald anyone
 800 2011-07-23 04:32:32 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: not through their clothes it wont
 801 2011-07-23 04:32:33 <gmaxwell> nameless|: have you read the case?
 802 2011-07-23 04:32:40 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|bull shit, yes it will
 803 2011-07-23 04:32:41 <IncitatusOnWater> and that Liberty dollar guy, obv you guys know he broke a ton of laws
 804 2011-07-23 04:32:41 <gmaxwell> I did— and I thought her case was compelling.
 805 2011-07-23 04:32:46 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: and she had something like 2nd degree burns
 806 2011-07-23 04:32:49 <jrmithdobbs> or close to it
 807 2011-07-23 04:32:50 <IncitatusOnWater> he wasn't some matry
 808 2011-07-23 04:32:52 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I work at a fucking coffee shop and have had my fair share of burns
 809 2011-07-23 04:33:01 <gmaxwell> IncitatusOnWater: yea, hardly defended himself really.
 810 2011-07-23 04:33:16 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: also, their pot was malfunctioning. it was something like 240F iirc
 811 2011-07-23 04:33:28 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: she had legit medical bills
 812 2011-07-23 04:33:29 <gmaxwell> Also, they damned themself with internal analysis.
 813 2011-07-23 04:33:39 <gmaxwell> s/themself/themselves/
 814 2011-07-23 04:33:43 <IncitatusOnWater> he named it a dollar (illegal), he didn't have the gold he said (fraud), he told people to give them instead of US currency to unsuspecting people
 815 2011-07-23 04:33:58 <gmaxwell> It wasn't quite pinto class or napster class bad internal docs but it was not good.
 816 2011-07-23 04:34:15 <jrmithdobbs> IncitatusOnWater: p sure everyone in this channel knows all that quite well ;p
 817 2011-07-23 04:34:33 <IncitatusOnWater> hehe, yes, but we are a special type here
 818 2011-07-23 04:34:40 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: I find that a bit hard to believe because it would be boiling.
 819 2011-07-23 04:34:48 <IncitatusOnWater> people who are passionate about bitcoin but don't grind it 10 hours a day don't know
 820 2011-07-23 04:34:52 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|It's possible that the minimum wage sap saw it boiling and didn't care
 821 2011-07-23 04:34:55 <IncitatusOnWater> and people that know little of bitcoin they def don't
 822 2011-07-23 04:34:59 <gmaxwell> ugh I'm totally behind on reading surpreme court rulings.
 823 2011-07-23 04:35:04 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|but at some point I'd like to think there's some common sense somewhere in the world
 824 2011-07-23 04:35:07 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: go read the case
 825 2011-07-23 04:35:10 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: seriously
 826 2011-07-23 04:35:14 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I am reading it
 827 2011-07-23 04:35:17 ujjain has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 828 2011-07-23 04:35:27 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I'm just saying that you can get nasty burns from coffee
 829 2011-07-23 04:35:32 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Even through clothes
 830 2011-07-23 04:35:35 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: she wasn't asking for millions. she just wanted them to pay her medical bills
 831 2011-07-23 04:35:45 <IncitatusOnWater> you guys are making the same argument lol
 832 2011-07-23 04:35:57 <gmaxwell> Agreed, but it's not just a coffee=burns case. You need to consider the totality of the situation.
 833 2011-07-23 04:36:02 <IncitatusOnWater> nameless is agreeing
 834 2011-07-23 04:36:05 <jrmithdobbs> right
 835 2011-07-23 04:36:25 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: they knew it was malfunctioning, the had been notified multiple times and decided internally it wasn't worth fixing
 836 2011-07-23 04:36:43 <jrmithdobbs> i *hate* when that case gets brought up
 837 2011-07-23 04:36:48 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|ugh
 838 2011-07-23 04:36:49 karnac has joined
 839 2011-07-23 04:36:55 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: shut up and read what I'm saying real quick
 840 2011-07-23 04:37:06 theymos has joined
 841 2011-07-23 04:37:13 <IncitatusOnWater> yes jrmithdobbs, nameless is agreeing with you
 842 2011-07-23 04:37:26 <jrmithdobbs> oh i missed the line where you agreed re: minimum wage sap ;p
 843 2011-07-23 04:37:48 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|You're lucky I'm in a good mood, otherwise I would have kicked you with that message :p
 844 2011-07-23 04:37:49 <jrmithdobbs> see that's how much i hate the mention of that case, i stop paying attention ;p
 845 2011-07-23 04:38:18 <IncitatusOnWater> :) but it's a good example of public ignorance to something that's on the radiowaves day in and day out
 846 2011-07-23 04:38:45 <jrmithdobbs> or this stupid woman who was found not guilty in fl re: death of her kid or whatever
 847 2011-07-23 04:39:16 <jrmithdobbs> they're now proposing crazy laws about requiring people report missing children within an hour and shit
 848 2011-07-23 04:39:35 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Ugh
 849 2011-07-23 04:39:37 <jrmithdobbs> so that "next time" they can convict a similar situation for SOMETHING
 850 2011-07-23 04:39:38 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|That law is so dumb
 851 2011-07-23 04:39:47 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|*proposed law
 852 2011-07-23 04:39:52 <jrmithdobbs> the process worked, stfu
 853 2011-07-23 04:39:59 <imsaguy> it did?
 854 2011-07-23 04:40:00 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Create a show trial to...
 855 2011-07-23 04:40:05 <jrmithdobbs> imsaguy: yes, it did.
 856 2011-07-23 04:40:06 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: shut up and read what I have to say
 857 2011-07-23 04:40:09 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|before I kick you
 858 2011-07-23 04:40:11 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Because I agree
 859 2011-07-23 04:40:17 <imsaguy> what process was that?
 860 2011-07-23 04:40:18 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I'm saying that proposed law is dumb
 861 2011-07-23 04:40:25 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|imsaguy: due process
 862 2011-07-23 04:40:32 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: what are you talking about?
 863 2011-07-23 04:40:38 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 864 2011-07-23 04:40:43 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: the law to report your kids missing
 865 2011-07-23 04:40:56 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|It's just something you can crucify me on if I don't realize my kid is missing
 866 2011-07-23 04:40:59 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: "the process worked, stfu" was directed at the people proposing the law, not you
 867 2011-07-23 04:41:05 MrTiggr has joined
 868 2011-07-23 04:41:08 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|kk
 869 2011-07-23 04:41:10 <jrmithdobbs> haha
 870 2011-07-23 04:41:19 <imsaguy> if you don't notice your <12 year old kid missing, you should be punished
 871 2011-07-23 04:41:43 <jrmithdobbs> imsaguy: you gonna pay for the police resources to enforce this law?
 872 2011-07-23 04:41:43 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|"During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Stella Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C)" This is false
 873 2011-07-23 04:41:53 zeropointo has quit (Quit: leaving)
 874 2011-07-23 04:42:00 <imsaguy> I'm not in Florida, but yes, I would
 875 2011-07-23 04:42:03 <jrmithdobbs> imsaguy: what happens if you kid is staying at a relatives for a weekend and you don't find out for 72 hours?
 876 2011-07-23 04:42:07 <jrmithdobbs> imsaguy: etc etc etc
 877 2011-07-23 04:42:13 <jrmithdobbs> it's a retarded law with no purpose
 878 2011-07-23 04:42:20 <imsaguy> 30 days is plain ridiculous
 879 2011-07-23 04:42:25 <jrmithdobbs> we already have laws for this in negligence/etc
 880 2011-07-23 04:42:37 <jrmithdobbs> the fact is, *they couldn't prove the case in this specific example*
 881 2011-07-23 04:42:58 <jrmithdobbs> the system worked
 882 2011-07-23 04:42:58 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|The problem with the charge was they couldn't even prove that her daughter was murdered
 883 2011-07-23 04:43:11 <jrmithdobbs> the state could not prove their case, she gets off, that simple
 884 2011-07-23 04:43:13 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|If you can't show someone has been murdered, you can't charge someone for their murder
 885 2011-07-23 04:43:43 <IncitatusOnWater> sounds like negligence on the side of the prosecution
 886 2011-07-23 04:43:52 <IncitatusOnWater> but idk anythink about that case tbh, i don't live in the US
 887 2011-07-23 04:43:59 <IncitatusOnWater> so i missed out on the popcorn fest
 888 2011-07-23 04:44:05 <imsaguy> its hard to say, we don't know everything that was or wasn't presented
 889 2011-07-23 04:44:11 <imsaguy> we weren't in the courtroom
 890 2011-07-23 04:44:18 <imsaguy> we didn't see everything the prosecutor saw
 891 2011-07-23 04:44:23 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|umm
 892 2011-07-23 04:44:32 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|the trial was public and streamed on the internet
 893 2011-07-23 04:44:40 <jrmithdobbs> i'd rather a million of her get off than the hundreds of innoncents we prison every year suffer tbqh
 894 2011-07-23 04:44:47 <imsaguy> they still had deliberations that weren't public
 895 2011-07-23 04:45:05 <jrmithdobbs> s/prison/imprison/
 896 2011-07-23 04:45:06 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|imsaguy: yes, but we saw everything the jury did
 897 2011-07-23 04:45:07 <senseles> wow had no idea that she had burns over 16% of her body and it required grafting
 898 2011-07-23 04:45:10 <senseles> thats pretty intense
 899 2011-07-23 04:45:19 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Still, she was an idiot
 900 2011-07-23 04:45:26 <senseles> to be fair though she was like 80
 901 2011-07-23 04:45:31 <senseles> her son or grand son or whatever
 902 2011-07-23 04:45:31 <imsaguy> I was referring to the negligence on prosecutor's part
 903 2011-07-23 04:45:31 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: you know she was elderly right?
 904 2011-07-23 04:45:34 <senseles> should have helped her
 905 2011-07-23 04:45:50 zeropointo has joined
 906 2011-07-23 04:45:51 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: I don't care, if you fucking open a hot cup of coffe in your lap and spill some on yourself, you're an idiot
 907 2011-07-23 04:46:06 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|jrmithdobbs: If the lid pops off and it spills on you as they're handing it to you, that's different
 908 2011-07-23 04:46:12 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|But she did that all to her self
 909 2011-07-23 04:46:53 <IncitatusOnWater> let's party like it's 1994
 910 2011-07-23 04:47:25 <imsaguy> can we move on from stupid mcdonald's customer lady already?
 911 2011-07-23 04:47:44 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|The judge in the UK case got it right
 912 2011-07-23 04:47:57 ujjain has joined
 913 2011-07-23 04:48:01 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|"You're an idiot if you think they should serve it colder. It's a hot drink, it's expected to be hot"
 914 2011-07-23 04:48:07 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Ok, I'm done, going back to studying
 915 2011-07-23 04:48:38 <upb> wait, you mean they didnt have a disclaimer on it ?:P
 916 2011-07-23 04:48:46 <upb> 'WARNING: COFFE IS A HOT DRINK'
 917 2011-07-23 04:48:52 MBS has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 918 2011-07-23 04:48:59 <imsaguy> Warning: not for morons
 919 2011-07-23 04:49:47 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|The topic is now about hairless dogs
 920 2011-07-23 04:49:50 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|discuss
 921 2011-07-23 04:49:56 MBS has joined
 922 2011-07-23 04:50:09 <imsaguy> what are you supposed to be studying?
 923 2011-07-23 04:50:42 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 924 2011-07-23 04:50:47 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|I'm studying for the FAA written exam for a private pilots license
 925 2011-07-23 04:50:59 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|and going over the practical test standards
 926 2011-07-23 04:51:10 <jrmithdobbs> nameless|: i'm going up in a stearman 88 in the morning
 927 2011-07-23 04:51:16 <jrmithdobbs> (not flying)
 928 2011-07-23 04:51:18 <jrmithdobbs> gonna be awesome
 929 2011-07-23 04:51:36 <jrmithdobbs> o shi, i need to go to bed
 930 2011-07-23 04:51:50 <da2ce7> I need some help setting up a openvpn, anyone well-exerence at this willing to walk throogh it with me in a pm?
 931 2011-07-23 04:52:04 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: how much you payin
 932 2011-07-23 04:52:22 <da2ce7> um a few btc if it is what it takes...
 933 2011-07-23 04:52:26 <upb> imo setting up openvpn shouldnt be something you do without understanding how to do it :)
 934 2011-07-23 04:52:39 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|for 3 btc I can help you
 935 2011-07-23 04:52:55 <jrmithdobbs> cheap
 936 2011-07-23 04:53:12 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|Like I said
 937 2011-07-23 04:53:13 <nameless> !~root@mindjail.subluminal.net|good mood
 938 2011-07-23 04:53:17 <da2ce7> nameless|, cool. :)
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 941 2011-07-23 05:04:16 <senseles> upb: just use openvpn-as and be done with it
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 952 2011-07-23 05:30:24 * da2ce7 is not built to be an admin.
 953 2011-07-23 05:31:35 <IncitatusOnWater> hey tycho
 954 2011-07-23 05:31:56 <IncitatusOnWater> [tycho]
 955 2011-07-23 05:33:18 lolwat` has joined
 956 2011-07-23 05:35:06 <NorthLite> any other bitcoin forks, other than namecoin?
 957 2011-07-23 05:37:54 arthurb has joined
 958 2011-07-23 05:39:03 <IncitatusOnWater> namecoin isn't really a fork though, it's something entirely different
 959 2011-07-23 05:39:07 arima has joined
 960 2011-07-23 05:39:36 <IncitatusOnWater> although i'm not sure how the mining competition will work because they will always flock to the one with the better reward so only one will succeed I believe
 961 2011-07-23 05:41:27 <gmaxwell> There won't be competition in the future.
 962 2011-07-23 05:41:43 <gmaxwell> Namecoin is being hoisted onto the bitbitcoin proof of work.
 963 2011-07-23 05:41:53 <gmaxwell> (via the alternative blockchain concept)
 964 2011-07-23 05:41:56 <NorthLite> i think there will always some competition
 965 2011-07-23 05:42:07 <NorthLite> but bitcoin will stay
 966 2011-07-23 05:42:13 <gmaxwell> Mining on bitcoin will mine you both bitcoin and namecoin.
 967 2011-07-23 05:42:26 <NorthLite> it will be the slackware of or freebsd of p2p currencies
 968 2011-07-23 05:42:41 AAA_awright_ has joined
 969 2011-07-23 05:42:48 <NorthLite> that double mining thing is confusing to me
 970 2011-07-23 05:42:57 <gmaxwell> (the security model of bitcoin doesn't actually work well if there are multiple POW change in wide use— too much risk of hash power hopping between them)
 971 2011-07-23 05:43:02 <NorthLite> i mean if i run just the namecoin or bitocin client
 972 2011-07-23 05:43:11 <NorthLite> where will the solved blocks go?
 973 2011-07-23 05:43:14 <gmaxwell> s/change/chains/
 974 2011-07-23 05:43:15 <NorthLite> to what address?
 975 2011-07-23 05:43:33 <gmaxwell> Both.
 976 2011-07-23 05:43:35 <imsaguy> the peers
 977 2011-07-23 05:43:36 imsaguy has quit (Changing host)
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 979 2011-07-23 05:43:37 <NorthLite> i'm talking about solo mining
 980 2011-07-23 05:43:45 <gmaxwell> Both.
 981 2011-07-23 05:43:47 <NorthLite> i mean for me?
 982 2011-07-23 05:43:49 <NorthLite> i mean for me
 983 2011-07-23 05:44:02 <NorthLite> how?
 984 2011-07-23 05:44:17 <NorthLite> as far as i know bitocin addresses start with 1...
 985 2011-07-23 05:44:22 <NorthLite> and namecoin with N or M
 986 2011-07-23 05:44:28 <gmaxwell> If you want the technical description, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_Chains
 987 2011-07-23 05:44:46 <NorthLite> quite drunk to read it right now :P
 988 2011-07-23 05:44:52 <gmaxwell> Yes. Miners will— at their option— process both bitcoin and namecoin chains. And if they solve a block, they'll process for both.
 989 2011-07-23 05:45:11 <gmaxwell> So you'd have a namecoin wallet which is gaining namecoins, and a bitcoin wallet gaining bitcoins.
 990 2011-07-23 05:45:31 <NorthLite> so through wich client will i be mining?
 991 2011-07-23 05:45:36 <NorthLite> bitcoin or namecoin?
 992 2011-07-23 05:45:47 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 993 2011-07-23 05:45:47 <NorthLite> i use poclbm
 994 2011-07-23 05:45:50 <lolwat`> clients dont mine
 995 2011-07-23 05:46:14 <lolwat`> just read the wiki its pretty simple
 996 2011-07-23 05:46:16 <NorthLite> where do i point my poclbms to the bitcoin or the namecoin?
 997 2011-07-23 05:46:17 <gmaxwell> Right now the software for testing this is a proxy that rides both of them, but I expect that someday support for multiple chains will be integrated into the bitcoind that miners use directly.
 998 2011-07-23 05:46:18 <lolwat`> store merkleroot in coinbase
 999 2011-07-23 05:46:36 <NorthLite> gmaxwell: i c
1000 2011-07-23 05:46:54 <gmaxwell> You're mining against the bitcoind primarily however, the proxy is just there to shuffle some data around.
1001 2011-07-23 05:46:59 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
1002 2011-07-23 05:47:17 <IncitatusOnWater> yes but when it comes down to the profitability wouldn't using all that processing power just for the better gamble be better
1003 2011-07-23 05:47:20 <NorthLite> lolwat`: clients do mine
1004 2011-07-23 05:47:28 <gmaxwell> Basically namecoin will abandon the bitcoin security model, and instead it will be secured by bitcoin.
1005 2011-07-23 05:47:59 <NorthLite> isnt't that kind of sponging of bitcoin? :)
1006 2011-07-23 05:48:03 <IncitatusOnWater> there is always a more profitable value prospect and you should put all your chips on it instead of mitigate for volatility if you are a logical economic agent as profession miners are already
1007 2011-07-23 05:48:13 <gmaxwell> IncitatusOnWater: it's not profitable to mine on a system which is insecure and busted, at least not in the long term, and namecome is insecure and busted if not slaved to bitcoin.
1008 2011-07-23 05:48:31 <lolwat`> perhaps we can exploit miners for free
1009 2011-07-23 05:48:47 <lolwat`> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=31111.0
1010 2011-07-23 05:48:55 <IncitatusOnWater> that sounds like underhanded subsidizing, if people will be downloading clients without realizing what they are doing
1011 2011-07-23 05:49:05 <gmaxwell> Huh?
1012 2011-07-23 05:49:07 <IncitatusOnWater> then that seems a bit underhanded
1013 2011-07-23 05:49:27 <IncitatusOnWater> are you saying that they plan is to patch up the current client to auto do that?
1014 2011-07-23 05:49:35 harrigan has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
1015 2011-07-23 05:49:37 <gmaxwell> gah that post is bad bad bad, because it break scalablity again.
1016 2011-07-23 05:49:53 <lolwat`> gmaxwell, huh?
1017 2011-07-23 05:50:01 <gmaxwell> It is not acceptable that every single service that people imagine adding to bitcoin increase the blocksize.
1018 2011-07-23 05:50:09 harrigan has joined
1019 2011-07-23 05:50:10 <gmaxwell> O(N) scaling is not acceptable.
1020 2011-07-23 05:50:12 <lolwat`> gmaxwell, its a single merkleroot
1021 2011-07-23 05:50:25 <gmaxwell> "
1022 2011-07-23 05:50:25 <gmaxwell> The obvious strategy is to include the merkleroot as data in a normal transaction, rather than the coinbase, along with some tag saying "i'm really a merkleroot for a namecoin header"."
1023 2011-07-23 05:50:32 <NorthLite> gmaxwell: can bitcoin do anything to prevent this merging?
1024 2011-07-23 05:50:45 <gmaxwell> This means that every single alternative chain you add will bloat the size of every block forever.
1025 2011-07-23 05:50:47 <lolwat`> gmaxwell, that is a total of 40 bytes, a normal tx is more than double that
1026 2011-07-23 05:50:59 <lolwat`> yes, so what? the space is being paid for
1027 2011-07-23 05:51:01 <gmaxwell> The current alternative chaing system adds one hash for all alternative chains forever.
1028 2011-07-23 05:51:01 <IncitatusOnWater> yes users should have the option with the default being not to do that because most bitcoin users will not know wtf namecoin is anyway
1029 2011-07-23 05:51:07 <NorthLite> lolwat`: i think the less bytes the better
1030 2011-07-23 05:51:13 <lolwat`> i mean
1031 2011-07-23 05:51:17 <lolwat`> it doesn't really matter
1032 2011-07-23 05:51:27 <lolwat`> who are you to say someone's transaction is more important than mine
1033 2011-07-23 05:51:35 <gmaxwell> lolwat`: it's N bytes times very single full bitcoin node.
1034 2011-07-23 05:51:35 <lolwat`> frankly I think miners will find mine more important
1035 2011-07-23 05:51:42 <lolwat`> given that they have no outputs and pay all tx fee
1036 2011-07-23 05:51:53 <gmaxwell> The official bitcoin alternative chain system is explicitly designed to solve this problem.
1037 2011-07-23 05:51:56 <IncitatusOnWater> seems like taking this perfect functioning system and using it to subsidize something which may or may not end up being popular
1038 2011-07-23 05:52:16 <lolwat`> gmaxwell,  huh? the system I describe IS the same as the alt chain system
1039 2011-07-23 05:52:19 <NorthLite> i think in the end they will merge, because we are greedy, but it goes against, wisdom and decentralization
1040 2011-07-23 05:52:20 <gmaxwell> IncitatusOnWater: You're misunderstanding it.
1041 2011-07-23 05:52:29 <NorthLite> but maybe i misuderstand things
1042 2011-07-23 05:52:31 <IncitatusOnWater> perhaps, i need to read up on it
1043 2011-07-23 05:52:43 <gmaxwell> lolwat`: No, it's not. The alt chain system adds _one_ hash to the coinbase for potentially infinite alternative chains.
1044 2011-07-23 05:53:19 <lolwat`> eh
1045 2011-07-23 05:53:33 <lolwat`> then just replace all occurences of bitcoin block with altchain block
1046 2011-07-23 05:53:46 <lolwat`> and the question in my post is still worthy of study
1047 2011-07-23 05:53:58 <gmaxwell> And the extra space you'd take up is not being paid for: no one is paying me for the space on all my full nodes. My compensation is simply bitcoin being a good trusted and well validated system for monetary transactions.
1048 2011-07-23 05:54:06 <lolwat`> lol
1049 2011-07-23 05:54:12 <lolwat`> how is this my problem
1050 2011-07-23 05:54:27 <gmaxwell> It's my problem when my nodes refuse to forward your blocks until they're burried in the chain.
1051 2011-07-23 05:54:38 <gmaxwell> er your problem. :)
1052 2011-07-23 05:54:55 <lolwat`> huh?
1053 2011-07-23 05:55:01 <lolwat`> i don't understand
1054 2011-07-23 05:55:12 <lolwat`> bitcoin is just a log-structured filesystem with an auction for space
1055 2011-07-23 05:55:21 <gmaxwell> No it is not.
1056 2011-07-23 05:55:29 <gmaxwell> There is no payment to most of the users.
1057 2011-07-23 05:55:35 <gmaxwell> If you use it that way you will make it fail.
1058 2011-07-23 05:55:36 <lolwat`> er i mean
1059 2011-07-23 05:55:42 <lolwat`> that is what it is
1060 2011-07-23 05:55:45 <gmaxwell> Or rather the netwok will fight back against you using it that way.
1061 2011-07-23 05:55:51 <lolwat`> how?
1062 2011-07-23 05:55:56 <lolwat`> i mean if you really want me to illustrate the point
1063 2011-07-23 05:56:04 <lolwat`> ill write a python script to embed arbitrary files in transactions
1064 2011-07-23 05:56:13 <lolwat`> i mean i was jujst thinking of using it to store small hashes, 30 bytes
1065 2011-07-23 05:56:21 <gmaxwell> If you shove blocks with detectable garbage data into blocks, I _will_ stop forwarding them and you will find yourself being orphaned more often and you will lose money.
1066 2011-07-23 05:56:42 <lolwat`> but if you really want to not accept it's a datastore, I'll write scripts to inject large data blobs
1067 2011-07-23 05:56:45 <lolwat`> er
1068 2011-07-23 05:56:48 <gmaxwell> Good luck, the antispam rules mostly inhibit that. For example, zero value outputs don't mine.
1069 2011-07-23 05:56:57 <lolwat`> zero value output with massive TX fee?
1070 2011-07-23 05:57:06 <lolwat`> how about 0.001 output with massive TX fee?
1071 2011-07-23 05:57:32 <gmaxwell> Try it out. It won't forward and it won't mine, unless you limit yourself to encoding the data in addresses.
1072 2011-07-23 05:57:49 <lolwat`> er yeah that is the only way to do it thx to IsStandard
1073 2011-07-23 05:57:55 <gmaxwell> And at least that pays all bitcoin users by burning coins.
1074 2011-07-23 05:58:08 <lolwat`> right
1075 2011-07-23 05:58:18 <lolwat`> the point is you cant prevent this
1076 2011-07-23 05:58:28 <lolwat`> the only solution is to price the space properly
1077 2011-07-23 05:58:31 <gmaxwell> Except for the fact that it already does prevent it.
1078 2011-07-23 05:58:31 <lolwat`> if you are angry about this
1079 2011-07-23 05:58:37 <lolwat`> it's because you are not pricing space right
1080 2011-07-23 05:58:48 <gmaxwell> There is no way to price if properly because there is no way to pay most of the burdened users.
1081 2011-07-23 05:58:55 rethaw has joined
1082 2011-07-23 05:59:25 <gmaxwell> Regardless, why are you obsessing about this? The proper altchain stuff lets you store data without any of this burden on the rest of the money-only users of bitcoin.
1083 2011-07-23 05:59:33 <lolwat`> er
1084 2011-07-23 05:59:37 <lolwat`> see the post
1085 2011-07-23 05:59:52 <lolwat`> there's a consistency issue that arises
1086 2011-07-23 06:00:01 <lolwat`> what if a merkleroot is included, but you don't see the data?
1087 2011-07-23 06:00:18 <gmaxwell> Have you actually seen the namecoin implementation?
1088 2011-07-23 06:00:33 <lolwat`> namecoin implementation doesn't have this problem because they are including in coinbase
1089 2011-07-23 06:00:38 ar4s has joined
1090 2011-07-23 06:01:08 <gmaxwell> All they are including in the coinbase is a single hash root for a tree of any number of alt chains.
1091 2011-07-23 06:01:14 <lolwat`> I want to branch off any TX, not just coinbase, so that miners can be forced to work for free
1092 2011-07-23 06:01:15 <lolwat`> right
1093 2011-07-23 06:01:18 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1094 2011-07-23 06:01:26 ar4s has left ()
1095 2011-07-23 06:01:35 <lolwat`> but what if the data for that alt chain is unavailable
1096 2011-07-23 06:01:49 <lolwat`> in other words, what if I put an alt chain block in the coinbase
1097 2011-07-23 06:01:57 <lolwat`> and then HIDE the actual data from you
1098 2011-07-23 06:02:01 <gmaxwell> Well, guess what, you lose because you won't be permitted to do that.
1099 2011-07-23 06:02:16 <lolwat`> now what do you do?
1100 2011-07-23 06:02:47 <gmaxwell> Tell you that you're an idiot for wasting your hashpower on orphan blocks and laugh all the way to the bank?
1101 2011-07-23 06:03:00 <lolwat`> er
1102 2011-07-23 06:03:02 <gmaxwell> Maybe if I'm being nice I'll remind you of alternative chains.
1103 2011-07-23 06:03:04 <lolwat`> why are they orphan?
1104 2011-07-23 06:03:33 <gmaxwell> Because if it's required to prevent abuse nodes would start imposing a version of isstandard on their forwarding decisions.
1105 2011-07-23 06:04:09 <lolwat`> but you cannot distinguish a regular TX from a TX encoding data
1106 2011-07-23 06:04:18 <gmaxwell> "If you hear a block, and it contains garbage, tell no one about it until it's at least one chain deep."
1107 2011-07-23 06:04:26 <gmaxwell> Oh if you want to burn coins, then thats fine.
1108 2011-07-23 06:04:32 <gmaxwell> At least all bitcoin users are paid for that.
1109 2011-07-23 06:04:34 <lolwat`> yes that is the point
1110 2011-07-23 06:04:50 <lolwat`> to use blockchain as a for-pay filesystem
1111 2011-07-23 06:04:52 <lolwat`> which is what it is
1112 2011-07-23 06:05:02 <gmaxwell> It's a really shitty one.
1113 2011-07-23 06:05:30 <lolwat`> not at all, it's actually quite useful for this particular purpose
1114 2011-07-23 06:05:44 <gmaxwell> ...
1115 2011-07-23 06:05:46 kish is now known as !~rr@unaffiliated/spice|Spleenie
1116 2011-07-23 06:05:57 <lolwat`> a highly replicated filestore where you have reasonable confidence of widespread consistency
1117 2011-07-23 06:06:11 <lolwat`> there is no other system I know of that provides anything like that
1118 2011-07-23 06:06:37 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1119 2011-07-23 06:06:58 <lolwat`> also
1120 2011-07-23 06:07:24 <lolwat`> lrn2crypto primitive imo http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
1121 2011-07-23 06:07:34 <gmaxwell> At a cost of $3.67 per megabyte.. wooptie.
1122 2011-07-23 06:07:40 freakazoid has joined
1123 2011-07-23 06:07:55 <lolwat`> that's actually a great deal
1124 2011-07-23 06:08:00 <lolwat`> that is a one time cost
1125 2011-07-23 06:08:22 <lolwat`> for massive replication by a bunch of people who are dedicated to keeping your shit alive
1126 2011-07-23 06:08:23 <gmaxwell> welp, I'm going to go sell all my coin now, because you're basically predicting bitcoin's failure.
1127 2011-07-23 06:08:30 <lolwat`> ?
1128 2011-07-23 06:08:31 freakazoid has quit (Client Quit)
1129 2011-07-23 06:08:32 <lolwat`> not at all
1130 2011-07-23 06:08:33 <gmaxwell> ...
1131 2011-07-23 06:08:44 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1132 2011-07-23 06:08:48 <gmaxwell> If it's a great deal, then people will use it for that, increasing the cost of running bitcoin.
1133 2011-07-23 06:08:59 <lolwat`> the fact that people are so commited to keeping bitcoin alive
1134 2011-07-23 06:08:59 <gmaxwell> which will force people to increase the fees.
1135 2011-07-23 06:09:10 <lolwat`> is precisely what makes this such a great datastore
1136 2011-07-23 06:09:12 <gmaxwell> And it will cut out all the full nodes who aren't miners, which will undermine confidence.
1137 2011-07-23 06:09:36 <lolwat`> i dont understand what complaint there can be
1138 2011-07-23 06:09:41 <lolwat`> this is supply and demand
1139 2011-07-23 06:09:57 <gmaxwell> No. It's not, it's a dysfunctional market for this asset.
1140 2011-07-23 06:09:57 <lolwat`> if people are willing to pay more to store some shit in the blockchain than some stupid transaction
1141 2011-07-23 06:10:09 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1142 2011-07-23 06:10:18 <lolwat`> eh
1143 2011-07-23 06:10:20 <lolwat`> i dunno but
1144 2011-07-23 06:10:21 <gmaxwell> Yea, because they'll mostly be paying miners for, but storage and validation costs are taken by all full nodes.
1145 2011-07-23 06:10:24 koleg has joined
1146 2011-07-23 06:10:38 <lolwat`> im now convinced that someone really needs to write an easy script to inject arbitrary files into the blockchain
1147 2011-07-23 06:10:44 <lolwat`> and so I will do that
1148 2011-07-23 06:10:44 <gmaxwell> You're a piece of shit.
1149 2011-07-23 06:10:54 <lolwat`> lmao u sir seem irritated
1150 2011-07-23 06:11:02 <gmaxwell> Yes, I am.
1151 2011-07-23 06:11:27 AAA_awright_ has joined
1152 2011-07-23 06:11:31 <gmaxwell> Why don't you do something productive and create an altchain for that that would actually have a fair market and wouldn't be paracitic on bitcoin?
1153 2011-07-23 06:11:47 <lolwat`> http://www.publicorgan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/u-mad1.jpg
1154 2011-07-23 06:12:02 <lolwat`> er because the whole idea that you pay once for perpetual storage is totally retarded
1155 2011-07-23 06:12:07 <lolwat`> and thus I will demonstrate that
1156 2011-07-23 06:12:20 <lolwat`> anyway
1157 2011-07-23 06:12:21 rethaw has quit (Quit: rethaw)
1158 2011-07-23 06:12:22 <gmaxwell> *plonk*
1159 2011-07-23 06:12:23 <lolwat`> bbl
1160 2011-07-23 06:12:28 <lolwat`> thanks for the big hard drive
1161 2011-07-23 06:13:00 <gmaxwell> And people here, next time I talk to someone named "lolwat" or "hidongs" or some other name where I really should know better, please cluestick me.
1162 2011-07-23 06:13:53 AAA_awright__ has joined
1163 2011-07-23 06:14:05 Gekz_ is now known as Gekz
1164 2011-07-23 06:14:15 <upb> actually i was thinking of writing something that would allow to embed the quaran into blockchain :)
1165 2011-07-23 06:14:25 dr_win has joined
1166 2011-07-23 06:14:32 <upb> but after researching the code more realised it would cost :/
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1168 2011-07-23 06:14:46 <lolwat`> also there's a potential issue where if someone injects something illegal and announces it
1169 2011-07-23 06:14:52 * imsaguy gives gmaxwell a ClueBy4
1170 2011-07-23 06:15:06 <lolwat`> everyone is now storing illegal content
1171 2011-07-23 06:15:06 AAA_awright__ is now known as AAA_awright
1172 2011-07-23 06:15:13 AAA_awright is now known as AAA_awright__
1173 2011-07-23 06:15:15 <lolwat`> bitcoin is somewhat unique in that you can't afford to delete it
1174 2011-07-23 06:15:31 <lolwat`> the way you could in any other situation, because if you delete it you can't verify tx anymore
1175 2011-07-23 06:15:34 <imsaguy> you're so right lolwat`! You've got it all figured out
1176 2011-07-23 06:15:55 <lolwat`> no i dont have anything figured out
1177 2011-07-23 06:16:00 <lolwat`> i dont know how to solve this problem
1178 2011-07-23 06:16:07 <lolwat`> so I am going to make it very very easy to exploit
1179 2011-07-23 06:16:11 <lolwat`> and hope someone smarter than me solves it
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1181 2011-07-23 06:16:28 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: I can create got a script that decodes the hex values of pi into child porn, so pi is illegial.
1182 2011-07-23 06:17:02 <lolwat`> it's interesting, and not clear, what exactly would be considered posession of such data
1183 2011-07-23 06:17:13 <imsaguy> lol
1184 2011-07-23 06:17:18 <imsaguy> I like pie
1185 2011-07-23 06:17:26 <lolwat`> I could take an illegal string X
1186 2011-07-23 06:17:31 <lolwat`> and pick a random string Y
1187 2011-07-23 06:17:42 <lolwat`> store Y in one place, and Z = X xor Y someplace else
1188 2011-07-23 06:17:48 <gmaxwell> lolwat`: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
1189 2011-07-23 06:17:49 <lolwat`> both Y and Z are uniform random strings
1190 2011-07-23 06:17:55 <NorthLite> is there any security problem if i use the same private key for bitcoins and mamecoins?
1191 2011-07-23 06:17:58 RazielZ has joined
1192 2011-07-23 06:18:15 <gmaxwell> You're falling into a common computer geek misunderstanding of the law.
1193 2011-07-23 06:18:43 FractalUniverse has joined
1194 2011-07-23 06:18:54 <gmaxwell> NorthLite: oh, good question.
1195 2011-07-23 06:18:59 <NorthLite> :)
1196 2011-07-23 06:19:03 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1197 2011-07-23 06:19:07 <lolwat`> gmaxwell, AFAIK these are things that are not settled, but IANAL.  If you have refs/links that clarify I'd love to see them, I'll look at that link thankx
1198 2011-07-23 06:19:23 <gmaxwell> lolwat`: I just gave you a link.
1199 2011-07-23 06:19:59 <gmaxwell> (see also the post he's responding to)
1200 2011-07-23 06:21:16 <lolwat`> that XOR is very different from what I said
1201 2011-07-23 06:21:47 <lolwat`> there it's 2 copyrighted things that XOR to give something
1202 2011-07-23 06:22:07 <lolwat`> the thing i described is 2 *totally random strings* that XOR to give something illegal/copyrighted
1203 2011-07-23 06:22:09 eastender has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1204 2011-07-23 06:22:14 <gmaxwell> In general any attempt to pull a "I've buried magical ILLEGAL NUMBERS in X, now X is ILLEGAL. HA! solve that riddle!" is just going to result in a court looking at you weird and saying "your instructions for extracting the illegal thing are what are actually illegal, enjoy your time in jail"
1205 2011-07-23 06:22:33 <lolwat`> if that is true that is great
1206 2011-07-23 06:23:08 <gmaxwell> Go read the bits color article. This isn't a surprising outcome to lawyers at all. Only computer folks think this is tricky.
1207 2011-07-23 06:23:15 <lolwat`> what i'm concerned about is the unique case of bitcoin where this data can't be deleted
1208 2011-07-23 06:23:17 <lolwat`> will do, thx
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1213 2011-07-23 06:37:51 <diki> if the ntime is updated more than once per second or per getwork, and a hash < target is found, will it he reiected?
1214 2011-07-23 06:38:05 <diki> *rejected
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1216 2011-07-23 06:40:53 <diki> s/he/be
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1224 2011-07-23 07:15:09 <cjdelisle> Interesting article about "color of bits"
1225 2011-07-23 07:15:58 <gmaxwell> I think it should be required reading. :)
1226 2011-07-23 07:17:48 <cjdelisle> I've not gotten all the way through it but I am reminded of the bittorrent project where each piece was xor encoded against a piece of some random other file.
1227 2011-07-23 07:18:29 <gmaxwell> One of those proposals is actually what this was written in response to.
1228 2011-07-23 07:18:58 <cjdelisle> yea monolith is a joke based on what I read in that article.
1229 2011-07-23 07:19:09 <diki> link??
1230 2011-07-23 07:19:33 <cjdelisle> Obviously to a legal scholar xor is a derivitive function so everything must be a derivitive and it is clear cut but when someone can say "no I was not downloading X" with plausability, establishing intent becomes very difficult and the case gets weak.
1231 2011-07-23 07:19:48 <cjdelisle> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
1232 2011-07-23 07:20:34 evelyn66 has joined
1233 2011-07-23 07:21:46 <diki> erm.....7 year old article?
1234 2011-07-23 07:21:59 <cjdelisle> I can't find it now but it was slightly different in that each piece of the bittorrent file was xor'd against something different so based on downloading some pieces from a node, there was no way of knowing whether they intended on downloading exibit A or exibit B.
1235 2011-07-23 07:23:08 <gmaxwell> The law would simply ask what they ended up with.
1236 2011-07-23 07:23:46 <cjdelisle> Indeed, it just means that evidence gathered by connecting to a node and downloading some pieces from it is inconclusive.
1237 2011-07-23 07:23:55 <gmaxwell> In systems like freenet where most of the distributing nodes just pass around encrypted data, and there is no way to know what data you're storing, then this all probably works.
1238 2011-07-23 07:25:06 <gmaxwell> The standards of evidenc in law are pretty different than what you might expect. In civil law, a preponderance of the evience is effectively "more likely than the alternative offered by the defence" for all real purposes.
1239 2011-07-23 07:25:51 <gmaxwell> Also: the law doesn't usually like stunts.
1240 2011-07-23 07:26:46 <gmaxwell> You hook a gun to a set of pullies, then a platform with cat food on it. The cat hops up and it shoots the neighbor you've been fighting with.  "I'm innocent. The cat did it!"
1241 2011-07-23 07:27:25 <gmaxwell> Courts are usually perfectly happy to see right through most crap like that, unless you happen to use the right government approved stunts like incorporation. ;)
1242 2011-07-23 07:27:45 denisx has joined
1243 2011-07-23 07:28:15 <cjdelisle> spring guns are serious business even if they don't kill anyone
1244 2011-07-23 07:28:38 <cjdelisle> I was looking over the books and saw that and was "whooo"
1245 2011-07-23 07:28:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah
1246 2011-07-23 07:28:53 <Diablo-D3> but
1247 2011-07-23 07:28:57 <Diablo-D3> you see how the government is getting
1248 2011-07-23 07:29:04 <Diablo-D3> they dont care about your fifth ammendment rights
1249 2011-07-23 07:29:15 <Diablo-D3> provide the password to decrypt it, or go to jail
1250 2011-07-23 07:29:30 <Diablo-D3> they dont even care if its not your data and you dont actually know it
1251 2011-07-23 07:29:53 <cjdelisle> Jail for what? What is the law they used?
1252 2011-07-23 07:30:09 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: contempt of court
1253 2011-07-23 07:30:38 <cjdelisle> Is there a case of this?
1254 2011-07-23 07:30:51 <gmaxwell> There is currently ongoing litigation on this subject.
1255 2011-07-23 07:30:57 <Diablo-D3> yeah what gmaxwell said
1256 2011-07-23 07:31:02 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: time to depart that country then.  it's not the only one
1257 2011-07-23 07:31:13 <Diablo-D3> sacarlson: in other countries they just shoot you.
1258 2011-07-23 07:31:24 <gmaxwell> They're trying a pretty stupid tactic: They've asked him to unlock it without telling them the key.
1259 2011-07-23 07:31:26 <cjdelisle> If you want to be free you pretty much have to move to the ocean.
1260 2011-07-23 07:31:31 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: or just let you get away with it
1261 2011-07-23 07:31:44 <Diablo-D3> sacarlson: unless you're a threat to them
1262 2011-07-23 07:31:50 <gmaxwell> Hopefully the court is offended enough by the stunt the government is pulling there that they toss the case out.
1263 2011-07-23 07:31:51 <Diablo-D3> such as, for example, every citizen in china.
1264 2011-07-23 07:31:59 <gmaxwell> But I'm not that hopeful.
1265 2011-07-23 07:32:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, if his lawyer isnt an idiot, he can just keep appealing it
1266 2011-07-23 07:32:47 <Diablo-D3> this IS a constitutional rights issue, period
1267 2011-07-23 07:32:54 <cjdelisle> Who signs the judge's paycheck...
1268 2011-07-23 07:32:58 <Diablo-D3> even if the supreme court declares it isnt, they actually have to do it
1269 2011-07-23 07:33:03 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: no one does
1270 2011-07-23 07:33:08 <sacarlson> I left USA partly on the fact I got put in jail for walking on the street at the wrong hour of the day.  so I give up on that contry sorry to say
1271 2011-07-23 07:33:15 <Diablo-D3> a smartass will say "oh, the american people do"
1272 2011-07-23 07:33:16 <Diablo-D3> but we dont
1273 2011-07-23 07:33:32 <Diablo-D3> the money that backs that check comes from us, sure
1274 2011-07-23 07:33:42 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1275 2011-07-23 07:33:49 <gmaxwell> https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2011/07/08 < Eff is fighting the good fight, of course.
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1278 2011-07-23 07:35:21 <sacarlson> what is your population in your USA prisions now?  .5% one in every 200 people are imprisoned.   Your FREE contry USA.
1279 2011-07-23 07:35:32 <cjdelisle> i know a guy who is a big fan of "shred passwords" or "shred if ....."
1280 2011-07-23 07:35:35 LightRider is now known as LightRider|afk
1281 2011-07-23 07:36:37 <gmaxwell> "shred passwords"?
1282 2011-07-23 07:36:59 <cjdelisle> a kill password which makes it shred the disk
1283 2011-07-23 07:37:20 <gmaxwell> Willful destruction of evidence is really terrible in court if you're caught doing it. In civil cases the rule is that it's assumed that the information you destroyed was against your interest.
1284 2011-07-23 07:37:46 <cjdelisle> actually his stuff all just shreds if you start pulling out wires to try and take it away
1285 2011-07-23 07:39:05 <cjdelisle> I thought that at one point a judge decided that the hard disk was an extension of the mind and so covered by the 5th.
1286 2011-07-23 07:39:07 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r3259628 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix obvious bug - https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/32596289f4296b1f034e73df36eb442598b7974e https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/commit/32596289f4296b1f034e73df36eb442598b7974e
1287 2011-07-23 07:39:40 <Zagitta> cjdelisle: that guy must have nerves of steel
1288 2011-07-23 07:40:13 <citiz3n> how can the disk shred itself if the power is removed?
1289 2011-07-23 07:40:46 redMBA has joined
1290 2011-07-23 07:40:50 <citiz3n> wouldn't the only real way to do it effectively be to have a device rigged to inject acid onto the platters
1291 2011-07-23 07:40:57 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: I'd suggest people who are interested in paranoid security get someone to invent a modern version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_%28file_system%29
1292 2011-07-23 07:41:02 <citiz3n> CO2 cartridge and some crazy rigging :)
1293 2011-07-23 07:41:10 <gmaxwell> citiz3n: the right disk firmware could do it...
1294 2011-07-23 07:41:22 <gmaxwell>  the spinning disk has a lot of stored energy!
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1296 2011-07-23 07:42:11 <sacarlson> citiz3n: I use an online key method but you could have it set at reboot to check with tripwire if anything found at fault shred all
1297 2011-07-23 07:42:57 <cjdelisle> Since they generally haul computers away running (to keep the keys in ram) it's not an issue he's worried about.
1298 2011-07-23 07:43:20 <gmaxwell> Cold boot attack dum dum dum
1299 2011-07-23 07:43:23 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: wow I didn't know that
1300 2011-07-23 07:43:36 <cjdelisle> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/15/AR2008011503663.html <-- looks like the caselaw favors the owner of the computer.
1301 2011-07-23 07:44:10 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: yep there are all kinds of awesome products for this.
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1303 2011-07-23 07:44:42 <gmaxwell> For example, there is a UPS that just has a single cord: you plug it into an outlet, then you go throw the breaker. the UPS back feeds the circuit to keep it up.
1304 2011-07-23 07:44:59 <gmaxwell> Then you just disassemble the outlet with everything plugged in.
1305 2011-07-23 07:45:14 <gmaxwell> But before all that you plug in the USB mouse jiggler to keep the screen from locking.
1306 2011-07-23 07:45:21 <cjdelisle> Which is why you should always mine on your desktop and draw 1000w like a pro.
1307 2011-07-23 07:45:47 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: well I guess in my case they would also have to keep the computer connected to the internet while they moved it as with failed ping you could also triger a shred
1308 2011-07-23 07:45:58 <gmaxwell> considering it backfeeds the whole circuit until you disconnect the outlet, I expect these things are seriously overspecced.
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1310 2011-07-23 07:49:13 <cjdelisle> haha
1311 2011-07-23 07:49:28 <cjdelisle> you can't type in your password without revealing it.
1312 2011-07-23 07:49:54 <cjdelisle> a trivial scan of memory would reveal the key derived from the password, a violation of the 5th ammendment.
1313 2011-07-23 07:50:06 <cjdelisle> It amounts to "write it on a napkin and leave it on this table"
1314 2011-07-23 07:51:01 <cjdelisle> In fact, everything on a decrypted harddisk is a derivitive of that password, it's not "unlocking a lock" is't modigying data.
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1316 2011-07-23 07:52:18 <moa7> gmaxwell: if you have a back-up then you haven't destroyed anything, only moved it to a safer location
1317 2011-07-23 07:52:35 <diki> if the ntime is updated more than once per second or per getwork, and a hash < target is found, will it he reiected?
1318 2011-07-23 07:53:08 <diki> s/will it he reiected?/will it be rejected?
1319 2011-07-23 07:53:37 <cjdelisle> moa7: only the government gets to do that kind of sneekyness (because they write the judge's check)
1320 2011-07-23 07:55:45 <Zagitta> "Boucher added the encryption software to protect the rest of his computer from viruses that might accompany the downloaded files" lolwut?
1321 2011-07-23 07:56:09 <gmaxwell> meh,  The judiciary is pretty independent, certainly in the higher courts. It's also sometimes crazy.
1322 2011-07-23 07:59:32 <AndyBr> morning bitcoin
1323 2011-07-23 07:59:39 <AndyBr> man did i pick a bad day to be living in oslo
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1327 2011-07-23 08:19:51 <diki> you are there?
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1347 2011-07-23 08:40:39 <AndyBr> yep, pretty empty outside today
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1349 2011-07-23 08:42:03 <cjdelisle> so sorry since ya gotta know they're likely to try some 1984 legal crap.
1350 2011-07-23 08:42:10 <AndyBr> yep
1351 2011-07-23 08:42:36 <AndyBr> predicted that like 10 sec after the bomb went off, secret police will have super powers from today
1352 2011-07-23 08:43:03 molecular has joined
1353 2011-07-23 08:43:16 <cjdelisle> OTOH it might be an external group doing it because .no wasn't "playing ball". No names or anything but ... world's largest cocaine import group ;)
1354 2011-07-23 08:43:39 <AndyBr> well, the guy is already captured who did it
1355 2011-07-23 08:44:25 <cjdelisle> heh find out if he attended the school of the americas or whatever it was called.
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1358 2011-07-23 08:44:35 <AndyBr> o_O
1359 2011-07-23 08:45:24 <cjdelisle> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=school+of+the+americas
1360 2011-07-23 08:47:21 zamgo_ has joined
1361 2011-07-23 08:51:02 <cjdelisle> Anyway, if your terror is anything like ours then the "mastermind" there is going to be an 8th grade dropout who can't read good and has trouble tieing his shoes.
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1374 2011-07-23 09:09:26 <AndyBr> well, it's a digital world. people have figured him out pretty much
1375 2011-07-23 09:10:02 <AndyBr> he made twitter/facebook profiles for himself with good looking pics and philosophical quotes
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1412 2011-07-23 10:54:17 <Zagitta> damn the forums are ridiculous... some guy suggested that deepbit should switch to namecoin mining and automate the exchange process...
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1414 2011-07-23 10:58:04 <Rabbit67890> lol
1415 2011-07-23 10:59:12 <b4epoche_> AndyBr:  can you explain these political youth camps?
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1418 2011-07-23 11:00:55 * b4epoche_ wonders if this will start Norwegians suggesting that if everyone had a gun, only a couple people might be dead like the Americans did after the VT shootings
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1421 2011-07-23 11:04:23 <Choko> maybe weapons on a youth camp where people are drunk and partying most of the time isn't the best combination :)
1422 2011-07-23 11:04:40 <Rabbit67890> ^^
1423 2011-07-23 11:11:18 <cjdelisle> Actually they did at a college in NH. It sounds bad but when you think about it, an accident from alcohol and firearms is really bad but it's just not going to kill 25 people.
1424 2011-07-23 11:12:10 * b4epoche_ doesn't think everyone having a gun is a solution but many in this country (US) do
1425 2011-07-23 11:12:31 * Rabbit67890 agrees with b4epoche 
1426 2011-07-23 11:12:51 <cjdelisle> Well... guns are illegal in mexico, you could move there.
1427 2011-07-23 11:13:04 <b4epoche_> no thanks
1428 2011-07-23 11:13:10 <Rabbit67890> i just dont care and no thanks
1429 2011-07-23 11:13:21 <Rabbit67890> and i just really think its a
1430 2011-07-23 11:13:41 <Rabbit67890> cout >> "bad idea"
1431 2011-07-23 11:14:44 <b4epoche_> yea, it might prevent 81 people from being killed in one incident but cause 100 people to die in separate ones
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1434 2011-07-23 11:15:32 <cjdelisle> I would be interested in reading any literature you have on those statistics.
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1436 2011-07-23 11:16:30 <b4epoche_> I have no literature on it.  But I do recall that you're more likely to shoot someone you know than, say, an intruder if you have a gun in your house.
1437 2011-07-23 11:17:53 <cjdelisle> I have heard that statstic and it doesn't take into account all of the intruders who are held up at gunpoint until the police arrive nor all of the intruders who decide that burglery is a dangerous business so they get jobs instead.
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1449 2011-07-23 11:42:16 <b4epoche_> where's BlueBoy?  enjoying his Saturday outside?
1450 2011-07-23 11:43:07 <BitcoinForNewegg> thats prolly cause if a guy knows u got a gun he wont rob u and he will split
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1455 2011-07-23 11:48:36 <Eliel> http://falkvinge.net/2011/07/23/who-kills-80-teenagers-one-by-one/
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1461 2011-07-23 11:57:13 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  I thought maybe you were outside enjoying your Saturday
1462 2011-07-23 11:58:05 <b4epoche_> but I see some strange things happening in the core bitcoin code on Lion
1463 2011-07-23 11:58:05 <erus`> you are also more likely to get stabbed whilst carrying a knife
1464 2011-07-23 11:58:12 <erus`> (in the uk)
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1466 2011-07-23 11:58:49 * b4epoche_ is not against all guns, but does think handguns should probably go
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1468 2011-07-23 11:59:40 <senseles> Choko: it's a politicial youth camp; i doubt they were "drinking".
1469 2011-07-23 11:59:50 <erus`> haha
1470 2011-07-23 11:59:51 <senseles> the fact is that criminals knowing that someone might have a gun in their home
1471 2011-07-23 12:00:06 <senseles> increases the risk factor and they're not willing to risk their life
1472 2011-07-23 12:00:15 <senseles> instead they go for an easier target where they know people are disarmed
1473 2011-07-23 12:00:23 <senseles> in kentucky you can still leave your doors unlocked at night
1474 2011-07-23 12:00:33 <senseles> everyone owns guns, theres guns everywhere, more guns than people
1475 2011-07-23 12:00:39 <b4epoche_> as you can in State College, PA
1476 2011-07-23 12:00:55 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1477 2011-07-23 12:00:59 <senseles> if the political youth camp had armed guards they would have gone for an easier target
1478 2011-07-23 12:01:32 <b4epoche_> the thing is, a criminal has no idea if someone they're planning to rob has a gun
1479 2011-07-23 12:01:45 <senseles> they do depending on the area
1480 2011-07-23 12:01:56 <b4epoche_> in fact, if they know you have a gun, they're probably more likely to rob you while you're away (to steal the gun)
1481 2011-07-23 12:02:04 <senseles> ive never heard of a robbery within 10 miles of my house
1482 2011-07-23 12:02:12 <senseles> kids like to smash mail boxes with baseball bats
1483 2011-07-23 12:02:13 <senseles> but that is all
1484 2011-07-23 12:02:31 <b4epoche_> same here, and where I grew up in MI
1485 2011-07-23 12:03:08 <b4epoche_> well, at least not a breaking and entering type thing
1486 2011-07-23 12:03:19 <senseles> the people who disagree with guns are usually disarmed panzies living in the cities
1487 2011-07-23 12:03:28 <senseles> i got held up at gun point 3 times in 4 years while in college
1488 2011-07-23 12:03:46 <b4epoche_> where?
1489 2011-07-23 12:03:53 <senseles> university of cincinnati
1490 2011-07-23 12:04:14 <senseles> ive never been held up in kentucky across the river where im from
1491 2011-07-23 12:04:15 <b4epoche_> it's in Berkeley that I was scared of people with guns
1492 2011-07-23 12:04:41 <senseles> it's usually people from the slums surrounding the college that come in to rob "rich" college kids that eat ramen every night
1493 2011-07-23 12:05:29 <b4epoche_> and don't tell me Lexington is a completely safe city
1494 2011-07-23 12:06:04 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: no way, I got a new laptop, why would I be outside?
1495 2011-07-23 12:06:05 <senseles> lexington is another inner city
1496 2011-07-23 12:06:17 <senseles> where people are disarmed
1497 2011-07-23 12:06:27 <senseles> go 20 miles in any direction and it'll be safe to leave your doors unlocked at night
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1499 2011-07-23 12:06:56 <b4epoche_> and you think that's because people are armed?
1500 2011-07-23 12:07:08 <senseles> i think its because neighbors are still neighborly
1501 2011-07-23 12:07:19 <b4epoche_> no one is armed in State College, PA and there's no crime here (except drunk college kids)
1502 2011-07-23 12:07:38 <b4epoche_> senseles:  /that/ is my theory…  it's all about anonymity
1503 2011-07-23 12:07:41 <senseles> and that yes, most people in the somewhat rural areas of ky have 5 guns in their house
1504 2011-07-23 12:08:00 <senseles> if i saw someone robbing my neighbors house i'd shoot them in a heartbeat
1505 2011-07-23 12:08:04 <senseles> like that guy in texas
1506 2011-07-23 12:08:14 <b4epoche_> when a community grows so big that it you become somewhat anonymous, civility starts to break down
1507 2011-07-23 12:08:33 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  you have Lion running?
1508 2011-07-23 12:09:23 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: not quite...I finally got the kernel to load after hacking around on vbox, but its not initializing further, it needs more investigation, but im too busy formatting/installing/setting up/etc a new laptop
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1510 2011-07-23 12:09:43 <senseles> i remember reading a scientific article somewhere that surmised basically said that humans are not supposed to live in groups larger than a few hundred
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1513 2011-07-23 12:10:21 <b4epoche_> State College is small enough that, for example, you don't flip some asshole off because they pulled out in front of you because there's a decent chance you know them
1514 2011-07-23 12:11:29 <BlueMatt> swap on ssd or hdd?
1515 2011-07-23 12:11:54 <b4epoche_> I'd say ssd if you have a enough space
1516 2011-07-23 12:11:59 <senseles> id go with hdd
1517 2011-07-23 12:12:15 <b4epoche_> how much RAM the laptop got?
1518 2011-07-23 12:12:16 <senseles> on ssd you might get stutters
1519 2011-07-23 12:12:23 <BlueMatt> 8G ram 120G ssd
1520 2011-07-23 12:12:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: no swap
1521 2011-07-23 12:12:55 <b4epoche_> well, hopefully with 8G you won't be hitting the swap hard
1522 2011-07-23 12:14:29 <b4epoche_> anyway, using some of the new code base bitcoin is maxing out both cores (on my laptop) and I see:  http://snapplr.com/9270
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1525 2011-07-23 12:22:13 <iddo> why the bitcoin client needs max cpu ?
1526 2011-07-23 12:23:32 <Eliel> iddo: it should only do that while loading the blockchain the first time and also if you activate mining.
1527 2011-07-23 12:24:55 huk has quit ()
1528 2011-07-23 12:25:04 <iddo> but mining was removed
1529 2011-07-23 12:25:15 <Zagitta> BlueMatt: NEVER put swap on ssd
1530 2011-07-23 12:26:03 <senseles> wouldnt the constant rewriting cause it to die quick?
1531 2011-07-23 12:26:11 <Zagitta> exactly
1532 2011-07-23 12:26:36 <bobke> meh
1533 2011-07-23 12:26:39 <bobke> Swap:  6144856k total,        0k used,  6144856k free,  3306264k cached
1534 2011-07-23 12:26:41 <bobke> on ssd
1535 2011-07-23 12:26:44 <vegard> don't the ssd controllers remap for tear leveling or something?
1536 2011-07-23 12:26:55 <bobke> there is no constant rewriting happening if you don't hit it
1537 2011-07-23 12:26:56 <vegard> wear*
1538 2011-07-23 12:27:09 <BlueMatt> yea, I know that was true on old ssds, but I asked because I wasnt sure if newer ones cared as much
1539 2011-07-23 12:28:47 <b4epoche_> iddo:  that's the point, I can't figure out why it's doing that
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1541 2011-07-23 12:29:11 <iddo> ahh
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1543 2011-07-23 12:31:18 <cjdelisle> I understand that any decent ssd these days does very good wear leveling so they are okay for swap.
1544 2011-07-23 12:32:14 <cjdelisle> However, linux doesn't really understand how an SSD is architected so there is the potential for it to make assumptions which are stupid when there are no tracks, sectors, cylinders...
1545 2011-07-23 12:33:07 <cjdelisle> There's a good article about it on lwn, I am too lazy to find the link so you can google if you care.
1546 2011-07-23 12:35:19 <Eliel> is there a website with statistics about the size of the bitcoin network? As in number of nodes, not terahashes.
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1551 2011-07-23 12:44:18 <BlueMatt> no
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1553 2011-07-23 12:45:26 <senseles> i wonder if this asicminer might just be legit
1554 2011-07-23 12:45:31 <senseles> i mean they're accepting paypal credit card
1555 2011-07-23 12:45:37 <senseles> if they dont deliver can just charge back the funds
1556 2011-07-23 12:45:55 <senseles> so i dont get why'd they'd try to steal money that way
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1558 2011-07-23 12:48:11 <cjdelisle> It's probably legit but not really going to happen, I mean raise a million dollars for a custom template? I would put them in the "honest dreamer" category.
1559 2011-07-23 12:52:36 <senseles> ya, i guess if they were capable of doing it they'd just mine themselves like what i want to do
1560 2011-07-23 12:52:47 <senseles> develop my own fpga board mine at 300 ghash/s for 6 months or a year
1561 2011-07-23 12:52:51 <senseles> then sell all the hardware
1562 2011-07-23 12:53:40 <senseles> have to get those coins while the difficulty is low before everyone starts putting up their own 20ghash/s machines :p
1563 2011-07-23 12:54:38 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rfeca317 / lib/connection.js : Fixed parsing of sub-version. - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/feca31761bf0b7ed7077d298e0878e776a88532c https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/feca31761bf0b7ed7077d298e0878e776a88532c
1564 2011-07-23 12:54:38 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r74affe1 / lib/peermanager.js : Disable peer discovery based on configuration. - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/74affe1245d5604566c121492854305c28b5ea14 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/74affe1245d5604566c121492854305c28b5ea14
1565 2011-07-23 12:54:38 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r1a3b7f7 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Removed KeyIndex feature in favor of a database index. - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/1a3b7f7e1e3201bd3db2af74446eeede74ec5625 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/1a3b7f7e1e3201bd3db2af74446eeede74ec5625
1566 2011-07-23 12:54:39 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * re9705d0 / (lib/connection.js lib/scriptinterpreter.js): Improved some comments. - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/e9705d081027373821a0e3cfd647284c5d9ad5e1 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/e9705d081027373821a0e3cfd647284c5d9ad5e1
1567 2011-07-23 12:54:39 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rca752eb / bin/bitcoinjs : Removed "accounts" table from db import/export. - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/ca752eb6b2f0545aafc1d6759e0034acbc86dae4 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/ca752eb6b2f0545aafc1d6759e0034acbc86dae4
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1573 2011-07-23 13:07:18 <Zagitta> jgarzik: i must admit i was a bit hasty to judge your protocol, i really like the idea of including proof of work in the login message
1574 2011-07-23 13:07:39 * Zagitta bows in the dust and admit defeat
1575 2011-07-23 13:08:49 <Eliel> Zagitta: that sounds interesting. Do you have a link?
1576 2011-07-23 13:09:32 MetaV has joined
1577 2011-07-23 13:09:47 <Zagitta> Eliel: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3493.0
1578 2011-07-23 13:12:24 <cjdelisle> "'getwork' data is a mere 256 bytes" <-- when I see that UDP are the 3 letters that come to my mind.
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1581 2011-07-23 13:15:42 <Zagitta> the problem with udp is that you'll have implement routines that makes sure none of your submitted work packages gets lost...
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1583 2011-07-23 13:17:05 <cjdelisle> yea, a persistent tcp connection does the same good.
1584 2011-07-23 13:17:42 <cjdelisle> ofc if you're running a server with 10k clients all senting tiny amounts of data, tcp really begins to fail.
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1586 2011-07-23 13:19:28 <Zagitta> true
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1589 2011-07-23 13:21:47 <cjdelisle> From where I sit that looks like a very good proposal.
1590 2011-07-23 13:23:05 bobke_ has joined
1591 2011-07-23 13:23:33 <cjdelisle> I don't know how many nodes you expect your mining server to have connected to it but there are people who have a lot of experience with very high throughput servers with hundreds of thousands of clients, they are in #bittorrent.
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1593 2011-07-23 13:25:50 <Zagitta> talk to jgarzik about that, it's his baby not mine :p
1594 2011-07-23 13:27:19 bobke_ is now known as bobke
1595 2011-07-23 13:28:03 <cjdelisle> IMO if you're looking at <25k clients, that's fine. The bittorrent people had to change tracker code because the load was killing their TCP stack.
1596 2011-07-23 13:30:45 <Zagitta> well it's not even needed if peer to peer pooling gets up and running
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1622 2011-07-23 14:25:57 <Zagitta> Any of you linux fokes happen to know why screen is unable to handle special characters?
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1626 2011-07-23 14:27:27 <phantomcircuit> Zagitta, screen has it's own custom TERM type
1627 2011-07-23 14:27:38 <phantomcircuit> so whatever you're doing is probably just not checking the TERM type properly
1628 2011-07-23 14:28:43 * Zagitta understood nothing of that
1629 2011-07-23 14:29:00 <phantomcircuit> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Termcap
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1632 2011-07-23 14:30:58 <Zagitta> ah okay but then it should only be specific applications behaving weird, right? because both iftop and apt-get (danish ubuntu installation) mess up with special chars
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1643 2011-07-23 14:46:15 <Zagitta> â´ââââââââââââââââââââââââââ´âââââââââââââââââââââ is starting to piss me off :<
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1646 2011-07-23 14:56:29 <senseles> use screen
1647 2011-07-23 14:56:41 <senseles> it'll correct your problem
1648 2011-07-23 14:56:48 arthurb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1649 2011-07-23 14:57:00 <senseles> or not
1650 2011-07-23 14:57:12 <senseles> it use to for me, just checked and it didnt
1651 2011-07-23 14:57:19 <senseles> but ya, its a terminal issue
1652 2011-07-23 14:58:05 <cut> try starting it with unicode -U
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1666 2011-07-23 15:16:30 <Zagitta> cut: allready tried that :)
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1673 2011-07-23 15:25:39 <Incitatus> tcatm, why does the free USD site intersango.us not show up at bitcoinwatch.com
1674 2011-07-23 15:25:45 <Incitatus> it did it's first trade recently
1675 2011-07-23 15:26:16 <lfm> maybe cuz its new and hasnt been updated yet?
1676 2011-07-23 15:27:40 <tcatm> Incitatus: 1) I didn't know intersango.us exists 2) it looks like it doesn't follow the API requirements
1677 2011-07-23 15:28:11 <Incitatus> it has the same set up at britcoin so I think that's unlikely
1678 2011-07-23 15:28:44 <tcatm> britcoin is incompatible, too
1679 2011-07-23 15:29:08 Beccara__ has joined
1680 2011-07-23 15:29:26 <Incitatus> ah I see, you have new API requirements
1681 2011-07-23 15:29:44 <tcatm> I've sent an email to support@ with a deadline of 30 days. Other exchanges have got emails too (btcex, bcm, btcentral, ...)
1682 2011-07-23 15:29:55 <Incitatus> I see
1683 2011-07-23 15:30:10 <Incitatus> until those 30 days can intersango.us be listed?
1684 2011-07-23 15:30:37 <lfm> brazen!
1685 2011-07-23 15:31:08 <AlonzoTG> new api?!?!?!
1686 2011-07-23 15:36:30 <cjdelisle> Is the new api requirement documented on http://bitcoincharts.com/about/exchanges/ ?  I ask because it looks the same as I remember it but I'm pretty new around here too.
1687 2011-07-23 15:36:58 ewal has joined
1688 2011-07-23 15:37:26 <tcatm> cjdelisle: yes it hasn't changed
1689 2011-07-23 15:40:02 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1690 2011-07-23 15:40:57 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, he's merely un grandfathering sites
1691 2011-07-23 15:41:23 ewal has quit (Client Quit)
1692 2011-07-23 15:42:23 <phantomcircuit> Incitatus, fyi mizery did a proper orderbook for v2
1693 2011-07-23 15:42:51 <phantomcircuit> formatting is still weird but that's easily fixed
1694 2011-07-23 15:42:51 <phantomcircuit> http://beta.intersango.com/orderbook.php
1695 2011-07-23 15:43:00 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
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1697 2011-07-23 15:44:15 <AndyBr> ;;bcstats
1698 2011-07-23 15:44:16 Stellar has joined
1699 2011-07-23 15:44:16 <gribble> Error: "bcstats" is not a valid command.
1700 2011-07-23 15:44:27 <cjdelisle> ahh thanks
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1703 2011-07-23 15:45:04 <AndyBr> how many hashes to make $1 (assuming 1 btc buys 13.5 usd)
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1706 2011-07-23 15:46:58 <tcatm> Incitatus: I'd prefer to avoid migrating it in 30 days but for a fee I can do that.
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1712 2011-07-23 15:54:14 <Incitatus> tcatm? you would charge a fee to a free service to allow them to operate on the paramiters that the current ones do?
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1716 2011-07-23 15:57:23 <sipa> his time isn't free, i suppose
1717 2011-07-23 15:58:16 <doublec> Incitatus: you have a spelling mistake on your help page
1718 2011-07-23 15:58:29 <doublec> Incitatus: you spell consultancy wrong
1719 2011-07-23 15:58:39 <doublec> "For a list of my current projects please visit Bitcoin Consulancy's wiki page."
1720 2011-07-23 15:58:53 <Incitatus> heh, thanks doublec
1721 2011-07-23 15:58:59 <doublec> np :)
1722 2011-07-23 15:59:10 <Incitatus> sipa, I was saying OUR service is free
1723 2011-07-23 15:59:35 <Incitatus> we don't mkae money from our exchange site, in fact we are spending a lot to keep it free
1724 2011-07-23 16:00:09 <tcatm> so spend a little more to upgrade your API :)
1725 2011-07-23 16:00:55 <Incitatus> tcatm, I just ask that you provide the same service you do to other exchanges unbiasedly
1726 2011-07-23 16:01:12 <Incitatus> we will upgrade the API in the time aloted to all the other exchanges
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1728 2011-07-23 16:01:32 <Incitatus> well, the time that was alloted to all the other exchanges expect for the free USD exchange
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1730 2011-07-23 16:02:13 <phantomcircuit> oh
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1733 2011-07-23 16:03:46 <phantomcircuit> doublec, where?
1734 2011-07-23 16:03:55 <phantomcircuit> ohhelp page
1735 2011-07-23 16:04:16 <doublec> phantomcircuit: on the help page it says: "For a list of my current projects please visit Bitcoin Consulancy's wiki page."
1736 2011-07-23 16:04:22 <doublec> Note the 'Consulancy"
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1742 2011-07-23 16:08:08 <phantomcircuit> doublec, thanks
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1745 2011-07-23 16:08:17 <doublec> phantomcircuit: np
1746 2011-07-23 16:09:17 <cjdelisle> old but sort of relivent http://torrentfreak.com/harvard-develops-p2p-client-that-uses-bandwidth-as-currency/
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1750 2011-07-23 16:14:54 * sipa just made bitcoind connect over ipv6
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1752 2011-07-23 16:15:08 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, something important to note
1753 2011-07-23 16:15:14 <phantomcircuit> Yes, Harvard, the richest University in the world recently started a new line of P2P research. They have an army of law professors to protect them, so unlike others, they must feel safe to do this controversial research in the land of the free and the home of the RIAA/MPAA.
1754 2011-07-23 16:15:20 <phantomcircuit> that statement is slightly inaccurate
1755 2011-07-23 16:15:27 <BlueMatt> sipa: as in rpc or as in node connections?
1756 2011-07-23 16:15:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: node
1757 2011-07-23 16:15:38 <phantomcircuit> harvard is protected because the MPAA/RIAA lawyers are almost universally harvard alumni
1758 2011-07-23 16:15:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice
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1760 2011-07-23 16:16:11 <sipa> quite some problems still, like it won't advertize its ipv6 address
1761 2011-07-23 16:16:23 <sipa> but a -connect='[ipv6 address]' works
1762 2011-07-23 16:16:23 <lfm> phantomcircuit: you think Harvard lawyers wont sue other Harvard Lawyers? hehe
1763 2011-07-23 16:16:26 <BlueMatt> well hey, good to hear someone is working on it
1764 2011-07-23 16:17:11 <phantomcircuit> lfm, it's about suing your alma mater generally not a good plan
1765 2011-07-23 16:17:35 <phantomcircuit> their 26 billion usd endowment doesn't hurt though
1766 2011-07-23 16:18:13 <cjdelisle> From what I can gather, it's rippleish in nature.
1767 2011-07-23 16:18:55 <cjdelisle> Which works when there's 500 or 1000 people streaming a tv show, when there's a total swarm of 5 million, ripple turns into packetstorm.
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1770 2011-07-23 16:21:49 <Eliel> BlueMatt: about the problems in decentralizing transaction storage, are there other problems in addition to not knowing whether an input is already spent or not?
1771 2011-07-23 16:22:33 <Eliel> because, I may have a solution to that one even with decentralizing storage of transactions.
1772 2011-07-23 16:23:04 <cjdelisle> please write it up and pastebin it, I am interested in a formal writeup
1773 2011-07-23 16:23:27 <BlueMatt> Eliel: the only problem with decentralized transaction store is that there is no reason to do it
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1775 2011-07-23 16:24:28 <Eliel> BlueMatt: it makes a large difference to the hardware requirements to run a node in the future. Why does that translate into "no reason to do it"?
1776 2011-07-23 16:24:57 <BlueMatt> no it doesnt, as no nodes will have the chain except those who have the hardware to do it anyway
1777 2011-07-23 16:25:53 <BlueMatt> we went over this, in no way are fairly beefy servers potentially limited at any point in the future
1778 2011-07-23 16:25:55 <Eliel> is there a forum thread somewhere I ought to read?
1779 2011-07-23 16:26:09 * BlueMatt doesnt read the forums anymore
1780 2011-07-23 16:26:23 <phantomcircuit> lol the forums are retarded
1781 2011-07-23 16:26:32 <Eliel> I didn't manage to find the mailing list by the way. Where is that?
1782 2011-07-23 16:26:34 * cjdelisle never even joined the forum
1783 2011-07-23 16:26:45 <BlueMatt> sourceforge lists
1784 2011-07-23 16:26:48 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-development
1785 2011-07-23 16:26:59 <phantomcircuit> someone was complaining that prices on intersango.com are higher than bitmarket.eu, when i pointed out bitmarket.eu doesn't solve the counter-party risk issue he just flamed me
1786 2011-07-23 16:27:02 <BlueMatt> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
1787 2011-07-23 16:28:43 <Zagitta> why can't we spread out blocks with a reasonable % redundency so nodes only need to store a certain % of the chain? obviously this would introduce some checking to make sure bad nodes gives us the wrong info... donno, just a random thought :9
1788 2011-07-23 16:28:57 * BlueMatt is afraid people will start spaming the list with crazy "bitcoin would be so much better if we did x" stuff that will never work like people do on the furms
1789 2011-07-23 16:29:50 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, than stop linking to it XD
1790 2011-07-23 16:30:32 <Eliel> thankfully most people are somewhat allergic to mailing lists
1791 2011-07-23 16:30:34 * cjdelisle subscribes.. lists are more my speed anyway. forums pfft
1792 2011-07-23 16:31:28 <sipa> Zagitta: because miners need the entire chain anyway
1793 2011-07-23 16:31:32 <bitcoinTrader> I have 832$ mtgox usd to trade for PP or dwolla and 24.5 coins left for sale @ 13.75$, 13.5 for 5, 12.90$ for over 20 if anybody is interested PM me.
1794 2011-07-23 16:31:41 <cjdelisle> It's odd, the forum model seems to attract a certain type of user because forums everywhere are the same.
1795 2011-07-23 16:31:43 <bitcoinTrader> ah shit wrong chan, sorry guys
1796 2011-07-23 16:31:52 <phantomcircuit> lol i was about to scald you ;)
1797 2011-07-23 16:31:59 <bitcoinTrader> My nose was burning
1798 2011-07-23 16:32:03 <bitcoinTrader> I felt it coming
1799 2011-07-23 16:32:18 <phantomcircuit> irc attracts me
1800 2011-07-23 16:32:22 <phantomcircuit> MUST HAVE INSTANT FEEDBACK
1801 2011-07-23 16:32:35 <cjdelisle> hehe same. It's a disease :(
1802 2011-07-23 16:34:16 <Zagitta> sipa: the idea was that they could request the needed information stored in the blocks that other nodes currently holdes
1803 2011-07-23 16:36:19 <phantomcircuit> Zagitta, there is nothing to gain by doing that
1804 2011-07-23 16:36:45 <phantomcircuit> i had the same thought a while ago but the gains are minimal and the latency increase potentially vast
1805 2011-07-23 16:37:37 <Zagitta> yeah you're right, it's just temporarily trading storage for BW
1806 2011-07-23 16:37:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah pretty much
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1812 2011-07-23 16:43:24 <fabianhjr> slush: you there? can you tell me what happned with an invalid block on the pool? 6810
1813 2011-07-23 16:43:54 <slush> fabianhjr: what do you mean?
1814 2011-07-23 16:44:10 <fabianhjr> It is marked as an invalid block? Was it a race condition?
1815 2011-07-23 16:44:25 <fabianhjr> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
1816 2011-07-23 16:44:46 <sipa> fabianhjr: just a stale block
1817 2011-07-23 16:44:47 <slush> yes, probably
1818 2011-07-23 16:45:46 <fabianhjr> Yep, though it is the first time I saw one, Can you still look at the fork it made? Even if it was rejected
1819 2011-07-23 16:46:08 <slush> fabianhjr: invalid blocks are (unfortunately) pretty common
1820 2011-07-23 16:46:21 <iddo> they are called orphan blocks?
1821 2011-07-23 16:46:36 <slush> fabianhjr: what exactly do you want?
1822 2011-07-23 16:46:41 <fabianhjr> :/ Dunno, you can call them Jerry's if you want :P
1823 2011-07-23 16:46:58 <fabianhjr> Just look at the data, block explorer doesn't seem to have a copy.
1824 2011-07-23 16:47:31 <fabianhjr> Or do this "orphan" blocks don't even get distributed?
1825 2011-07-23 16:47:32 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1826 2011-07-23 16:48:29 <slush> fabianhjr: I don't have the data too. But I don't think there is anything interesting inside.
1827 2011-07-23 16:48:47 <sipa> fabianhjr: they are submitted to the network, but the network already has a competing block
1828 2011-07-23 16:48:50 <sipa> so it is forgotten
1829 2011-07-23 16:49:10 Sylph has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1830 2011-07-23 16:49:15 <fabianhjr> Well, I was thinking of this, if blocks that make a fok get distributed, and if you could fork an earlier block, couldn't you cause a difficulty increase invalidating the longer chain?
1831 2011-07-23 16:49:25 <sipa> no
1832 2011-07-23 16:49:36 <sipa> unless you have close to 50% of the network's power
1833 2011-07-23 16:49:40 Sylph has joined
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1835 2011-07-23 16:50:51 <fabianhjr> No, I mean you start at the genesis block, and do 2100 as quick as you can falsifying the timestamps if necesary, then block number 2101 would be unlickly to fit in the new higher difficulty and anything on top of that gets invalidated.
1836 2011-07-23 16:51:31 <fabianhjr> Is this a potential issue?
1837 2011-07-23 16:51:37 pusle has joined
1838 2011-07-23 16:51:55 <devrandom> hey BlueMatt
1839 2011-07-23 16:52:12 <BlueMatt> whats up devrandom
1840 2011-07-23 16:52:48 <devrandom> BlueMatt: so what's next for builds?  I'll try to make mingw deterministic this weekend... anything else?
1841 2011-07-23 16:52:56 rynx has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1842 2011-07-23 16:53:15 <devrandom> BlueMatt: should we maybe distribute an rc of 0.4.0 as a gitian zip file to test downloading?
1843 2011-07-23 16:53:24 <BlueMatt> in terms of building, not afaik
1844 2011-07-23 16:53:30 RobinPKR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1845 2011-07-23 16:53:40 MrTiggr has joined
1846 2011-07-23 16:53:40 <BlueMatt> yea, as soon as the 0.4.0 rcs start going out, gitian will be right there in the mix
1847 2011-07-23 16:53:44 <BlueMatt> but for now we are still a ways off
1848 2011-07-23 16:54:24 <BlueMatt> though also needed is db 4.8 and wx2.9.2 upgrades
1849 2011-07-23 16:54:27 <BlueMatt> as those will be in 0.4
1850 2011-07-23 16:54:51 <devrandom> ok... are those easy drop-in or require code changes?
1851 2011-07-23 16:54:57 <BlueMatt> drop-in
1852 2011-07-23 16:55:40 <devrandom> I'll do builds for them in wxwidgets-release and bdb-release...
1853 2011-07-23 16:56:12 <BlueMatt> ok, Ill duplicate as soon as you have them...but Im having too much fun setting up new hardware atm :)
1854 2011-07-23 16:56:18 T_X has joined
1855 2011-07-23 16:56:51 <devrandom> BlueMatt: cool... how many cores?
1856 2011-07-23 16:56:58 thefinn93 has joined
1857 2011-07-23 16:57:02 <BlueMatt> its a laptop...
1858 2011-07-23 16:57:05 zeropointo has joined
1859 2011-07-23 16:57:11 <BlueMatt> i7 w/ 2 physical
1860 2011-07-23 16:57:15 <BlueMatt> 4 virtual
1861 2011-07-23 16:57:15 <devrandom> ah ok
1862 2011-07-23 16:57:17 <BlueMatt> 8g ram
1863 2011-07-23 16:57:24 <BlueMatt> still moves pretty quick
1864 2011-07-23 16:58:00 <phantomcircuit> lol
1865 2011-07-23 16:58:12 <phantomcircuit> i found having a desktop is nice
1866 2011-07-23 16:58:22 <BlueMatt> never said I wouldnt keep my desktop
1867 2011-07-23 16:58:23 <phantomcircuit> fast an wont randomly crash from overheating
1868 2011-07-23 16:58:35 <phantomcircuit> all the newer laptops have serious heat problems
1869 2011-07-23 17:01:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: for IPv6, i'd move away from IRC, and do everything in DNS
1870 2011-07-23 17:01:19 <BlueMatt> sounds good
1871 2011-07-23 17:01:28 SuprTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1872 2011-07-23 17:01:36 <sipa> that does mean the DNS-lookup should be IPv6 compatible, though
1873 2011-07-23 17:01:39 dr_win has joined
1874 2011-07-23 17:01:54 SuprTiggr has joined
1875 2011-07-23 17:02:53 <BlueMatt> ok
1876 2011-07-23 17:03:14 RobinPKR has joined
1877 2011-07-23 17:03:38 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt/sipa:  any thoughts on that situation where the core code was using all CPU?
1878 2011-07-23 17:04:11 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  it seems to be in the same part of the code that was acting weird for you yesterday.
1879 2011-07-23 17:05:00 <b4epoche_> but what's weird is that I don't see the high CPU use when I use the old core code like is in CocoaBitcoin
1880 2011-07-23 17:05:55 <b4epoche_> although I think it's in net.cpp which hasn't changed.
1881 2011-07-23 17:06:06 <MrTiggr> unload PieSpy
1882 2011-07-23 17:07:03 Stellar has joined
1883 2011-07-23 17:08:44 <sipa> currently, DNS seed are always added with nTime=0
1884 2011-07-23 17:08:55 <sipa> i'm not sure that's optimal
1885 2011-07-23 17:09:03 zeropointo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1886 2011-07-23 17:09:51 zeropointo has joined
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1893 2011-07-23 17:18:11 <erus`> amy winehouse died :O
1894 2011-07-23 17:18:59 <lfm> lemme guess -- drugs?
1895 2011-07-23 17:19:02 <[Tycho]> I never heard any of her songs.
1896 2011-07-23 17:19:26 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1897 2011-07-23 17:22:34 SuprTiggr has quit (Quit: MrTiggr_)
1898 2011-07-23 17:22:53 <JFK911> she had a hit song about not going to rehab
1899 2011-07-23 17:23:28 arthurb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1900 2011-07-23 17:24:15 SuprTiggr has joined
1901 2011-07-23 17:25:06 arthurb has joined
1902 2011-07-23 17:25:24 <b4epoche_> I guess she joins the 27 Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club)
1903 2011-07-23 17:25:47 <b4epoche_> but seriously, I wouldn't let her in
1904 2011-07-23 17:26:23 <sipa> ?
1905 2011-07-23 17:27:29 <lfm> the wiki page is not informative
1906 2011-07-23 17:28:18 <b4epoche_> what?  you can't read?
1907 2011-07-23 17:29:41 <lfm> worked better on refresh. some glitch
1908 2011-07-23 17:30:37 <b4epoche_> maybe she goes in the 'other' list
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1912 2011-07-23 17:34:50 davex__ has joined
1913 2011-07-23 17:37:40 <copumpkin> man, I'm glad I'm not a musician
1914 2011-07-23 17:37:46 <copumpkin> or I'd probably be dead or dying soon
1915 2011-07-23 17:37:58 <copumpkin> only reasonable conclusion
1916 2011-07-23 17:38:04 * b4epoche_ is long past that life hurdle
1917 2011-07-23 17:38:20 <copumpkin> lucky
1918 2011-07-23 17:38:28 <copumpkin> now you can be a musician and not worry
1919 2011-07-23 17:38:49 * b4epoche_ has got to stay off the cheeseburgers
1920 2011-07-23 17:39:05 <copumpkin> u no can haz cheezburger?
1921 2011-07-23 17:39:08 <sipa> rockstar is probably the most dangerous profession around
1922 2011-07-23 17:39:16 freakazoid has joined
1923 2011-07-23 17:39:20 <sipa> judging by average age at death
1924 2011-07-23 17:39:24 <b4epoche_> trailer park boys reference...
1925 2011-07-23 17:40:46 <b4epoche_> I guess it took Layne Staley a little longer
1926 2011-07-23 17:41:11 BurningToad has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1927 2011-07-23 17:41:27 <diki> would a hash be invalid if ntime is updated a tad bit too often?
1928 2011-07-23 17:41:27 <sipa> anyone want to try ipv6 support on non-linux systems?
1929 2011-07-23 17:41:36 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/8d13521b4aa3c1c2b1277beda9113e69d5079386
1930 2011-07-23 17:41:49 <sipa> BlueMatt, devrandom, b4epoche_
1931 2011-07-23 17:41:55 <b4epoche_> and Shannon Hoon just one year over
1932 2011-07-23 17:42:11 <lfm> diki: only if the time is too far off from present time
1933 2011-07-23 17:42:41 <diki> how off would that be?
1934 2011-07-23 17:42:56 <lfm> diki somthing like 90 minutes I think
1935 2011-07-23 17:45:19 <lfm> diki ideally you dont update ntime more than once a sec
1936 2011-07-23 17:46:44 <lfm> diki and dont just increment it, set it = time(NULL)
1937 2011-07-23 17:47:13 MrTiggr has joined
1938 2011-07-23 17:47:23 <sipa> b4epoche_: can you try compile my ipv6 branch on osx?
1939 2011-07-23 17:47:33 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1940 2011-07-23 17:47:45 <sipa> ... though it will be hard to test unless you've got an ipv6 address yourself
1941 2011-07-23 17:47:49 <b4epoche_> will try...
1942 2011-07-23 17:48:08 <b4epoche_> I'm at home so I doubt it
1943 2011-07-23 17:48:30 <sipa> ok, don't bother
1944 2011-07-23 17:48:36 <b4epoche_> I can try next week at the office (although I'm not sure I have ipv6 there either)
1945 2011-07-23 17:49:07 <b4epoche_> but I'd think psu.edu would be ipv6 but I don't recall ever 'switching' anything
1946 2011-07-23 17:49:12 <sipa> install a teredo client :)
1947 2011-07-23 17:49:33 TheZimm has joined
1948 2011-07-23 17:50:02 * b4epoche_ googles teredo
1949 2011-07-23 17:50:21 <sipa> aptitude install miredo   ->   have public IPv6 address
1950 2011-07-23 17:50:55 <b4epoche_> eh, how about port install miredo?
1951 2011-07-23 17:51:14 <sipa> try it :)
1952 2011-07-23 17:51:30 <b4epoche_> building
1953 2011-07-23 17:51:44 <b4epoche_> well building Judy and tuntaposx first
1954 2011-07-23 17:53:22 <b4epoche_> done...
1955 2011-07-23 17:53:35 <b4epoche_> do I want this to start at startup?
1956 2011-07-23 17:54:02 <lfm> I doubt it
1957 2011-07-23 17:54:06 <sipa> only if you have good firewall rules
1958 2011-07-23 17:54:34 * b4epoche_ doesn't have any services running at home
1959 2011-07-23 17:54:52 <b4epoche_> but I can't see the benefit to having ipv6 all the time
1960 2011-07-23 17:55:14 <sipa> i use it instead of port forwarding :)
1961 2011-07-23 17:55:26 <b4epoche_> ah, that might be nice
1962 2011-07-23 17:55:30 <sipa> although not with miredo, the address seems to change too often
1963 2011-07-23 17:55:34 <sipa> that's a sixxs tunnel
1964 2011-07-23 17:55:46 <Dagger2> it allows you to play http://loopsofzen.co.uk/ at any time? ;)
1965 2011-07-23 17:56:01 <devrandom> hi sipa
1966 2011-07-23 17:56:26 <sipa> hello there
1967 2011-07-23 17:56:27 <b4epoche_> so, can I test to see if it's working?
1968 2011-07-23 17:56:42 <b4epoche_> if so, I can try building your branch
1969 2011-07-23 17:56:53 <sipa> try 'ping6 ipv6.google.com' or so
1970 2011-07-23 17:57:14 <b4epoche_> do I need to run both tuntaposx and miredo?
1971 2011-07-23 17:57:24 <sipa> i have no idea what tuntaposx is
1972 2011-07-23 17:57:32 <devrandom> sipa: pinging re testing ipv6?
1973 2011-07-23 17:57:38 <sipa> ah, a tap/tun device
1974 2011-07-23 17:57:50 <sipa> i suppose that needs to run before you can run miredo
1975 2011-07-23 17:57:50 <b4epoche_> it asked about running that at startup
1976 2011-07-23 17:58:14 SuprTiggr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1977 2011-07-23 17:58:33 <sipa> devrandom: i made an ipv6 branch, could you try whether it builds for mingw?
1978 2011-07-23 17:58:38 SuprTiggr has joined
1979 2011-07-23 17:58:51 <devrandom> ok
1980 2011-07-23 17:59:26 <devrandom> sipa: just realizing, is miredo a good way to bypass firewalls?
1981 2011-07-23 17:59:34 <devrandom> or nat
1982 2011-07-23 17:59:50 <sipa> devrandom: well, here it seems to change addresses too often to be useful
1983 2011-07-23 18:00:04 <sipa> but it does give you a publicly accessible ipv6 address
1984 2011-07-23 18:00:45 <devrandom> hm... too bad, it seems like it should have been able to generate a fixed address with so many bits available
1985 2011-07-23 18:02:53 <Dagger2> teredo encodes your local udp port number, which changes, into the address
1986 2011-07-23 18:03:36 hdwow has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1987 2011-07-23 18:03:56 amiller has joined
1988 2011-07-23 18:04:56 <devrandom> sipa: building mingw now
1989 2011-07-23 18:05:02 <Dagger2> also some implementations put random data into it, to slow down address scanning
1990 2011-07-23 18:05:35 <b4epoche_> awesome:  16 bytes from 2001:4860:800e::67, icmp_seq=0 hlim=57 time=549.452 ms
1991 2011-07-23 18:05:59 <sipa> nice
1992 2011-07-23 18:06:18 <sipa> i'm building a modified node that has reserved connection slots for ipv6
1993 2011-07-23 18:06:28 <sipa> on bitcoin.sipa.be
1994 2011-07-23 18:08:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, roses are red
1995 2011-07-23 18:08:20 <phantomcircuit> violets are blue
1996 2011-07-23 18:08:30 <phantomcircuit> ipv6 isn't available here because of a stupid router
1997 2011-07-23 18:08:32 <phantomcircuit> :(
1998 2011-07-23 18:09:09 <sipa> devrandom, b4epoche_: ok, you can try -connect='[2a02:348:5e:5a29::1]'
1999 2011-07-23 18:09:45 <b4epoche_> gotta get it built first…  working on it ;-)
2000 2011-07-23 18:10:25 <sipa> devrandom, b4epoche_: you need -DUSE_IPV6 by the way
2001 2011-07-23 18:12:02 <upb> btw whats this talk about 'determinism' ?
2002 2011-07-23 18:12:05 <devrandom> I did a make awithout USE_IPV6 and I got an error about in_port_t undecl'ed at net.h:171
2003 2011-07-23 18:12:20 <b4epoche_> seems to be building fine…  but linking is probably going to die
2004 2011-07-23 18:12:45 <devrandom> upb: in what context?
2005 2011-07-23 18:13:02 <upb> 23 19:48 < devrandom> BlueMatt: so what's next for builds?  I'll try to make mingw deterministic this weekend... anything else?
2006 2011-07-23 18:13:18 <devrandom> upb: see https://gitian.org/
2007 2011-07-23 18:13:37 <upb> ahhh
2008 2011-07-23 18:13:38 <upb> thx
2009 2011-07-23 18:13:42 <sipa> devrandom: bah, i stopped testing without -DUSE_IPV6 after a while
2010 2011-07-23 18:13:46 <devrandom> upb: by making the build process deterministic, multiple developers can build the same binary and sign it independently
2011 2011-07-23 18:13:46 <sipa> sec, i'll fix
2012 2011-07-23 18:14:12 <upb> yep, got the point
2013 2011-07-23 18:14:15 <b4epoche_> sipa:  I'm actually building without -DUSE_IPV6 with no problem
2014 2011-07-23 18:14:26 * b4epoche_ figured he'd just let it finish
2015 2011-07-23 18:14:36 <phantomcircuit> devrandom, doesn't gcc put a timestamp in binaries anyways?
2016 2011-07-23 18:14:37 <devrandom> b4epoche_: I'm cross compiling to windows
2017 2011-07-23 18:14:58 <sipa> devrandom: seems you're not using the latest
2018 2011-07-23 18:15:00 <upb> is it your site devrandom ?
2019 2011-07-23 18:15:18 <sipa> devrandom: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/8d13521b4aa3c1c2b1277beda9113e69d5079386 is latest
2020 2011-07-23 18:15:21 <devrandom> phantomcircuit: not for linux.  windows binaries do have a timestamp, which I'll have to force to a known value.
2021 2011-07-23 18:15:26 <devrandom> upb: yes
2022 2011-07-23 18:15:31 <upb> theres a typo there
2023 2011-07-23 18:15:36 <upb> It remove the build and distribution process as a single point of failure.
2024 2011-07-23 18:15:38 <devrandom> sipa: I'll pull
2025 2011-07-23 18:15:50 <sipa> devrandom: or just follow my ipv6 branch
2026 2011-07-23 18:17:01 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2027 2011-07-23 18:17:41 <devrandom> sipa: same error
2028 2011-07-23 18:17:44 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2029 2011-07-23 18:17:46 <b4epoche_> okay, built fine…  failed on linking (but that's just some symlink issues)
2030 2011-07-23 18:17:53 freakazoid has joined
2031 2011-07-23 18:17:58 * b4epoche_ is rebuilding with -DUSE_IPV6
2032 2011-07-23 18:18:13 <devrandom> oh, wait, forgot USE_IPV6
2033 2011-07-23 18:18:14 freakazoid has quit (Client Quit)
2034 2011-07-23 18:18:38 <phantomcircuit> devrandom, xD
2035 2011-07-23 18:19:04 <devrandom> sipa: ok, now I get the same error, *plus* incomplete type sockaddr_in6
2036 2011-07-23 18:19:30 <sipa> maybe some extra include is necessary to get sockaddr_in6 on ming?
2037 2011-07-23 18:19:31 <senseles> would be nice to get a dual stack client
2038 2011-07-23 18:20:06 <devrandom> grep sockaddr_in6 `dpkg -L mingw32` returns nothing
2039 2011-07-23 18:20:20 <b4epoche_> built and linked...
2040 2011-07-23 18:20:51 <b4epoche_> just "-connect='[2a02:348:5e:5a29::1]"
2041 2011-07-23 18:22:09 <b4epoche_> "miredo[70405] <Debug>:  packet passed to maintenance procedure"
2042 2011-07-23 18:22:35 <b4epoche_> okay, the UI is finally up
2043 2011-07-23 18:22:47 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2044 2011-07-23 18:22:59 _W_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2045 2011-07-23 18:23:01 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2046 2011-07-23 18:23:13 <b4epoche_> 1 connection (to I assume 2a02:348:5e:5a29::1) and downloading blocks
2047 2011-07-23 18:23:23 MrTiggr has joined
2048 2011-07-23 18:23:41 <sipa> b4epoche_: nice, thanks!
2049 2011-07-23 18:23:44 <sipa> devrandom: bah
2050 2011-07-23 18:23:54 <b4epoche_> sipa:  anything else?
2051 2011-07-23 18:24:08 <senseles> does bitcoin exchange peer information with peers?
2052 2011-07-23 18:24:33 <sipa> senseles: yes
2053 2011-07-23 18:24:34 evelyn66 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2054 2011-07-23 18:24:37 <sipa> b4epoche_: nothing i can think of
2055 2011-07-23 18:24:53 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2056 2011-07-23 18:24:54 <sipa> devrandom: i suppose we'll need some headers not including in mingw32
2057 2011-07-23 18:24:55 <b4epoche_> okay…  makefile worked like a charm
2058 2011-07-23 18:25:15 <senseles> What would happen to bitcoin if the network were to segregate into 2 clusters?
2059 2011-07-23 18:25:33 <senseles> if for whatever reason there were 2 groups of bitcoin clients disconnected from each other
2060 2011-07-23 18:25:54 <sipa> senseles: if they aren't reunited within 100 blocks, large problems will occur
2061 2011-07-23 18:26:47 <sipa> devrandom: you have 'ws2tcpip.h' ?
2062 2011-07-23 18:26:50 <senseles> What would happen after 100 blocks?
2063 2011-07-23 18:27:03 <senseles> I was thinking if for instance international lines from one country went down effectively isolating the country
2064 2011-07-23 18:27:09 <dsockwell> there are enough clients, though, that that isn't likely, except in the case of governments cutting off their countries from the Internet
2065 2011-07-23 18:27:09 <senseles> but local internet was still functioning normally
2066 2011-07-23 18:27:10 <devrandom> sipa: looking
2067 2011-07-23 18:27:30 <senseles> ya, that was the case i was wondering about
2068 2011-07-23 18:27:36 <sipa> senseles: people might have created transactions based on the coins generated in blocks the other side hasn't seen
2069 2011-07-23 18:27:50 <senseles> so it would appear confirmed when in reality it isnt
2070 2011-07-23 18:27:57 <sipa> yes
2071 2011-07-23 18:28:04 <sipa> when reuniting, the losing block chain side will get their transactions reversed
2072 2011-07-23 18:28:07 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2073 2011-07-23 18:28:16 <sipa> that isn't that much of a problem unless there are double spend (attempts)
2074 2011-07-23 18:28:23 MrTiggr has joined
2075 2011-07-23 18:28:23 <sipa> they'll get reconfirmed
2076 2011-07-23 18:28:32 <senseles> or if a user buys something the seller ships it and the buyer gets his money back
2077 2011-07-23 18:28:33 <sipa> unless they are based on a coinbase from the losing chain
2078 2011-07-23 18:28:49 <devrandom> sipa: I don't see ws2tcp included anywhere in bitcoin
2079 2011-07-23 18:29:09 <senseles> what i was thinking was; if people were to put dedicated bitcoin clients on dedicated servers
2080 2011-07-23 18:29:12 <senseles> you wouldnt need irc
2081 2011-07-23 18:29:32 <senseles> the client could be predefined with 100 addresses to try
2082 2011-07-23 18:29:39 <devrandom> sipa: including it in net.h fixes that sockaddr_in6 error
2083 2011-07-23 18:29:40 <senseles> then those addresses share peers
2084 2011-07-23 18:29:54 <sipa> devrandom: good
2085 2011-07-23 18:29:57 <devrandom> in_port_t is still undefined
2086 2011-07-23 18:30:05 <devrandom> it's just a short, right?
2087 2011-07-23 18:30:08 <sipa> just change it to unsigned short
2088 2011-07-23 18:30:09 <sipa> yes
2089 2011-07-23 18:30:52 <senseles> but my concern was if internet went down for an area and if there were still a group of these machines still functioning on a local level effectively creating a second cluster
2090 2011-07-23 18:31:06 <senseles> i guess that would still be possible even under the current method though
2091 2011-07-23 18:31:26 <sipa> unless that cluster is very large, you'd notice simply by the massive slowdown of block generation
2092 2011-07-23 18:31:28 <devrandom> sipa: now I have AI_* and *addrinfo undefined in net.cpp
2093 2011-07-23 18:31:38 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2094 2011-07-23 18:32:15 <senseles> wouldn't that be a potential security problem
2095 2011-07-23 18:32:35 <senseles> someone with enough time and energy to waste could create a bitcoin client that would advertise a specific group of peers
2096 2011-07-23 18:32:39 <devrandom> strange, I see getaddrinfo in ws2tcpip.h
2097 2011-07-23 18:32:51 <senseles> put 1000 of your own clients online and try to get people segregated onto your network so you could do nefarious activities
2098 2011-07-23 18:33:31 <senseles> is it possible to tell what bitcoin addresses the peers you're connected to have?
2099 2011-07-23 18:33:37 <sipa> senseles: no
2100 2011-07-23 18:33:38 ewal has quit (Quit: ewal)
2101 2011-07-23 18:33:48 <sipa> there is no way to relate bitcoin addresses to ip addresses, by design
2102 2011-07-23 18:34:10 denisx has joined
2103 2011-07-23 18:34:31 <cjdelisle> Raccoon was talking a while back about MiTMing the btc network because you can just connect to everyone and tell alice you are bob and tell bob you are alice.
2104 2011-07-23 18:35:06 <senseles> but what would a mitm give you access to?
2105 2011-07-23 18:35:29 <senseles> i don't see how you could do anything nefarious if you dont have alice or bob's private key
2106 2011-07-23 18:35:33 <cjdelisle> naw
2107 2011-07-23 18:35:52 <cjdelisle> more like lie about the difficulty, suppress block advertisements
2108 2011-07-23 18:35:55 <sipa> devrandom:
2109 2011-07-23 18:35:56 <sipa> Include ws2tcpip.h with WINVER=0x0501
2110 2011-07-23 18:36:29 <senseles> you'd have to control all peers connected to a client to do that though wouldnt you?
2111 2011-07-23 18:38:34 <cjdelisle> to completely staunch it's found block from leaking out, if I'm not mistaken, yes
2112 2011-07-23 18:42:13 <devrandom> sipa: doesn't seem to do the trick, looking for the right way to pass the version in
2113 2011-07-23 18:42:57 <devrandom> actually that should have worked
2114 2011-07-23 18:43:16 <sipa> devrandom: this may help:
2115 2011-07-23 18:43:18 <sipa> http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-gnulib@gnu.org/msg01996.html
2116 2011-07-23 18:43:22 <devrandom> ack, headers.h overwrites it
2117 2011-07-23 18:44:37 <devrandom> sipa: ok, now just AI_ALL, AI_V4MAPPED and AI_ADDRCONFIG are missing
2118 2011-07-23 18:45:21 <sipa> devrandom: try WINVER 0x600
2119 2011-07-23 18:45:54 <sipa> hmm, actually
2120 2011-07-23 18:46:00 <sipa> i think we can do without
2121 2011-07-23 18:46:56 <devrandom> to summarize, I did:
2122 2011-07-23 18:47:03 <devrandom> #ifdef WIN32
2123 2011-07-23 18:47:03 <devrandom> #include <ws2tcpip.h>
2124 2011-07-23 18:47:08 <devrandom> typedef unsigned short in_port_t;
2125 2011-07-23 18:47:08 <devrandom> #endif
2126 2011-07-23 18:47:10 <devrandom> in net.h
2127 2011-07-23 18:47:19 <devrandom> and bumped WINVER in headers.h
2128 2011-07-23 18:47:52 <sipa> assuming we want to keep supporting XP, there is no way to work around AI_ALL and AI_V4MAPPED
2129 2011-07-23 18:48:14 <sipa> maybe do two lookups, instead of trying to have them both in one call
2130 2011-07-23 18:49:56 _W_ has joined
2131 2011-07-23 18:51:09 <devrandom> ok
2132 2011-07-23 18:51:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, using ipv4mappedipv6?
2133 2011-07-23 18:52:28 <sipa> phantomcircuit: how do you mean? bitcoin already encodes ipv4 addressed as mapped ipv6
2134 2011-07-23 18:52:52 zeropointo has quit (Quit: leaving)
2135 2011-07-23 18:54:26 mmoya has joined
2136 2011-07-23 18:55:03 Incitatus has joined
2137 2011-07-23 18:55:06 <Dagger2> you should just be able to ask for AF_UNSPEC without AI_ALL/AI_V4MAPPED, and get back all address families in a single call
2138 2011-07-23 18:55:24 <sipa> Dagger2: wasn't sure about that, thanks
2139 2011-07-23 18:56:24 phungus has quit (Quit: leaving)
2140 2011-07-23 18:56:27 <sipa> devrandom: what did you change exactly in headers.h?
2141 2011-07-23 18:59:28 <Dagger2> argh, I finally got cygwin to compile bitcoind, but the binary throws a "boost::interprocess_exception::library_error" and quits
2142 2011-07-23 18:59:53 <Dagger2> no further information of course, just "oh hey, error, I'm outta here" -.-
2143 2011-07-23 18:59:56 Incitatus has quit (Client Quit)
2144 2011-07-23 19:01:52 thefinn93 has left ("BAI")
2145 2011-07-23 19:01:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, supporting ipv6 on linux is very simply you just change the socket type to ipv6
2146 2011-07-23 19:01:58 <phantomcircuit> and that should do it
2147 2011-07-23 19:02:22 <sipa> there's a lot more involved :)
2148 2011-07-23 19:04:33 <phantomcircuit> yeah all the hackey shit needs to be fixed
2149 2011-07-23 19:05:07 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i've already made a succesful connection between two ipv6 nodes, so i suppose it works :)
2150 2011-07-23 19:05:17 <sipa> and b4epoche_ has tested it on osx as well
2151 2011-07-23 19:05:54 <devrandom> sipa: #define _WIN32_WINNT 0x0501
2152 2011-07-23 19:06:05 hugolp has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2153 2011-07-23 19:07:02 <diki> well...time to start building a getwork proxy
2154 2011-07-23 19:07:26 <Dagger2> I'd like to get rid of all the sockaddr_in/6 stuff, defines and if()s and make it address-family agnostic... but when I can't get the damn thing to compile/work :/
2155 2011-07-23 19:08:07 <sipa> Dagger2: well, bitcoin's serialized address network format is based on ipv6
2156 2011-07-23 19:08:14 <sipa> hard to make it completely agnostic
2157 2011-07-23 19:09:04 <sipa> devrandom: try again
2158 2011-07-23 19:10:04 huk has joined
2159 2011-07-23 19:10:22 <Dagger2> true... but all these blocks of code which switch between sockaddr_in6 and sockaddr_in based on USE_IPV6 are kinda horrible
2160 2011-07-23 19:10:28 <sipa> agree
2161 2011-07-23 19:11:11 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2163 2011-07-23 19:13:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, are you running ipv6 in parallel or mapped?
2164 2011-07-23 19:13:21 <sipa> how do you mean?
2165 2011-07-23 19:14:06 <sipa> i suppose it's mapped
2166 2011-07-23 19:14:17 <sipa> internally, all addresses are stored as ipv6
2167 2011-07-23 19:14:42 <sipa> but when connecting to an ipv4-mapped address, a normal ipv4 connection is attempted
2168 2011-07-23 19:16:02 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2169 2011-07-23 19:17:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah i meant using ::ffff:10.1.1.1 style mapping
2170 2011-07-23 19:17:20 <devrandom> sipa: ipv6 head is missing #include <ws2tcpip.h> etc.
2171 2011-07-23 19:18:25 <sipa> phantomcircuit: in the ToString method, ipv4-mapped addresses are just encoded as aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd
2172 2011-07-23 19:18:59 <sipa> devrandom: it's in net.cpp
2173 2011-07-23 19:18:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the text representation is irrelevent
2174 2011-07-23 19:19:17 <phantomcircuit> you *should* be able to only use AF_INET6 sockets
2175 2011-07-23 19:19:28 <phantomcircuit> but im guessing windows doesn't actually handle that very well
2176 2011-07-23 19:19:33 <WakiMiko> isnt that a kernel setting?
2177 2011-07-23 19:19:35 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ah, now i understand your question
2178 2011-07-23 19:19:36 <WakiMiko> on nvm windows
2179 2011-07-23 19:19:49 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: Windows 7 basically guarantees IPv6 now
2180 2011-07-23 19:19:54 <phantomcircuit> WakiMiko, yes but it's been default on most linux builds for ages
2181 2011-07-23 19:19:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, i keep the ipv4 code simply because that allows you to comment out the ipv6 part, and everything keeps working
2182 2011-07-23 19:19:58 <Dagger2> XP doesn't do v4mapped addresses at all; they work on Vista+
2183 2011-07-23 19:20:10 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: like, real IPv6
2184 2011-07-23 19:20:16 <WakiMiko> but programs can still explicitly use ipv4 only right
2185 2011-07-23 19:20:19 <Dagger2> but note that v4mapped addresses can be turned off in Linux, so you can't be sure they'll always be usable there
2186 2011-07-23 19:20:25 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yes ipv4 mapped ipv6 is real ipv6
2187 2011-07-23 19:20:34 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no it isn't
2188 2011-07-23 19:20:49 <luke-jr> sipa: why did you replace the sockaddr stuff I had with GetSockAddrIPv4() and co?
2189 2011-07-23 19:20:55 <phantomcircuit> it's the only sane way to write a new application supporting both
2190 2011-07-23 19:21:08 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: real IPv6 != dual stack
2191 2011-07-23 19:21:28 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, uh just having ipv6 isn't an option for most people
2192 2011-07-23 19:21:34 <sipa> luke-jr: i reimplemented it, actually
2193 2011-07-23 19:21:46 <sipa> luke-jr: only looked at your patch for a few things
2194 2011-07-23 19:21:50 <luke-jr> sipa: o
2195 2011-07-23 19:23:00 <luke-jr> sipa: I basically moved connection making into CAddress
2196 2011-07-23 19:23:16 <devrandom> sipa: you need it in net.h, because there's some inlined functions there that look inside the type
2197 2011-07-23 19:23:16 <sipa> that's probably a good idea
2198 2011-07-23 19:24:00 <Zagitta> Does anyone happen to have vm image with all the dependencies set up to compile bitcoin?
2199 2011-07-23 19:24:06 <luke-jr> sipa: I also used a proper union internally ;)
2200 2011-07-23 19:24:16 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2201 2011-07-23 19:24:49 <devrandom> sipa: Init(struct sockaddr_in6* ...
2202 2011-07-23 19:25:00 <sipa> devrandom: updated and rebased
2203 2011-07-23 19:25:08 <luke-jr> sipa: why do you group Teredo, but not 6to4?
2204 2011-07-23 19:25:38 <sipa> luke-jr: you have a suggestion for doing so?
2205 2011-07-23 19:25:49 <luke-jr> sipa: um, it's easy :P
2206 2011-07-23 19:26:01 <luke-jr> if it begins with 2002:/16, the next 32-bit is an IPv4 address
2207 2011-07-23 19:26:12 <sipa> ow, really :)
2208 2011-07-23 19:26:23 <devrandom> sipa: you put it inside #if*n*def __WXMSW__ ;)
2209 2011-07-23 19:26:31 <Dagger2> blocks of /32 for 6to4 would make sense, since that matches the v4 /16 case
2210 2011-07-23 19:26:32 <sipa> devrandom: grrr
2211 2011-07-23 19:26:38 <luke-jr> packets sent to 2002:aabb:ccdd::/48 are automatically directed to aaa.bbb.ccc.ddd ;)
2212 2011-07-23 19:26:47 <luke-jr> without any setup or ISP support
2213 2011-07-23 19:27:06 <luke-jr> Dagger2: well, they should be in the same group as the IPv4 address they map to
2214 2011-07-23 19:27:33 <Dagger2> luke-jr: and *not* 2002::aabb:ccdd, like one of subnetonline.com's calculators claims. -.-
2215 2011-07-23 19:27:43 <luke-jr> Dagger2: I'm aware :p
2216 2011-07-23 19:27:46 <Dagger2> that makes even more sense
2217 2011-07-23 19:27:54 <Dagger2> I think something bigger than /48 would be sensible for v6 too
2218 2011-07-23 19:28:02 phatsphere has joined
2219 2011-07-23 19:28:03 <Dagger2> since /48 is supposed to be a single end-user's allocation
2220 2011-07-23 19:28:03 <luke-jr> yes
2221 2011-07-23 19:28:06 <luke-jr> /48 is for the end-user
2222 2011-07-23 19:28:15 <luke-jr> IPv6 /48 is more or less IPv4 /32
2223 2011-07-23 19:28:57 <Dagger2> /32 is approximately one ISP, which I guess is about what we're going for with the v4's /16, so maybe that would be better
2224 2011-07-23 19:29:05 <denisx> maybe next week I will get a /64
2225 2011-07-23 19:29:24 TD has joined
2226 2011-07-23 19:30:22 <WakiMiko> wasnt it /64 for end users?
2227 2011-07-23 19:30:31 mtrlt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2228 2011-07-23 19:30:37 <WakiMiko> doubt anyone would need more than that
2229 2011-07-23 19:30:50 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: no, /48
2230 2011-07-23 19:30:50 mtrlt has joined
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2232 2011-07-23 19:30:52 <Dagger2> ugh, no, lots of people need more than that
2233 2011-07-23 19:31:00 <luke-jr> /64 is one network
2234 2011-07-23 19:31:03 <denisx> its nice for subnetting
2235 2011-07-23 19:31:26 <WakiMiko> 2^64 addresses is more than all ipv4 addresses
2236 2011-07-23 19:31:28 <Dagger2> you don't count "number of IPs" in v6, you count "number of networks", where a network is /64
2237 2011-07-23 19:31:33 <WakiMiko> why would you need more than that
2238 2011-07-23 19:31:41 <Dagger2> (network/subnet/"L2 broadcast domain")
2239 2011-07-23 19:31:44 <WakiMiko> unless you are a ISP or something
2240 2011-07-23 19:31:51 <WakiMiko> but that wouldnt fall under "end user"
2241 2011-07-23 19:32:11 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: because addresses aren't arbitrary
2242 2011-07-23 19:32:22 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: the last 64 bits are fixed per NIC
2243 2011-07-23 19:32:31 <Dagger2> yes, like I said, you don't care about the number of addresses, since it's always far too many to use
2244 2011-07-23 19:33:07 <sipa> by the way, i chose using /48 groups for IPv6 addresses
2245 2011-07-23 19:33:28 <luke-jr> sipa: that's what is wrong :p
2246 2011-07-23 19:33:29 <sipa> does that seem reasonable?
2247 2011-07-23 19:33:37 <luke-jr> sipa: /48 IPv6 is equivalent to /32 IPv4
2248 2011-07-23 19:33:42 <luke-jr> ie, a single address
2249 2011-07-23 19:33:49 <Dagger2> but if you have, say, a wired LAN, plus wireless LAN, plus a public wireless LAN, plus a v6-only VLAN, that's four networks, each of which has a /64 on it, so you need four of them just for that
2250 2011-07-23 19:33:50 <sipa> well, it depends where
2251 2011-07-23 19:33:55 <luke-jr> maybe /27 or something IPv4 actually
2252 2011-07-23 19:34:15 <luke-jr> sipa: last I checked, IANA was international
2253 2011-07-23 19:34:24 <WakiMiko> you dont have to use your MAC as the last 64 bits though. you can pretty much do whatever you want
2254 2011-07-23 19:34:33 <Dagger2> the standard is to give a /48 out to everybody, because there's easily enough v6 space to go around even giving /48 to individual users
2255 2011-07-23 19:34:36 <luke-jr> sipa: an IPv4 /16 is equivalent to IPv6 /32
2256 2011-07-23 19:34:40 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.141.219|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2257 2011-07-23 19:34:49 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: you're supposed to
2258 2011-07-23 19:34:55 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: it's called standards
2259 2011-07-23 19:35:31 <sipa> luke-jr: /27 seems very large
2260 2011-07-23 19:35:35 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, there is a standard for using random garbage
2261 2011-07-23 19:35:47 <sipa> but i agree that /48 may be too small
2262 2011-07-23 19:35:49 <WakiMiko> with security extensions enabled, the 64 bits will change all the time any way
2263 2011-07-23 19:35:55 <luke-jr> sipa: /27 was IPv4
2264 2011-07-23 19:36:16 <sipa> hmm?
2265 2011-07-23 19:36:35 <luke-jr> more like /29 actually
2266 2011-07-23 19:36:50 <Dagger2> WakiMiko: you need /64s to get SLAAC to work, and even if you don't want to use that, the standards say to use a /64 per network regardless, so there you go
2267 2011-07-23 19:36:54 <luke-jr> sipa: IPv4 /29-/30 = IPv6 /64
2268 2011-07-23 19:37:03 <luke-jr> sipa: IPv4 /16 = IPv6 /32
2269 2011-07-23 19:37:17 <sipa> ok, /32
2270 2011-07-23 19:37:28 <Dagger2> WakiMiko: also, various other things are written with that assumption -- e.g. an irc server might say "max n connections per v4 address" and "max n connections per v6-/64"
2271 2011-07-23 19:38:06 <WakiMiko> Dagger2: but thats just what i said, you wouldnt need a /48, /64 is more than enough for the home/end user
2272 2011-07-23 19:38:22 <Dagger2> WakiMiko: and there's really no reason to try and assign smaller ranges to networks in an attempt to conserve addresses, because ipv6 has enough
2273 2011-07-23 19:38:42 <Dagger2> I'm a home user, and I use 2-3 /64s at the moment
2274 2011-07-23 19:38:56 <Dagger2> and if I had VLAN capable hardware I'd have a few more
2275 2011-07-23 19:39:21 <Dagger2> and I use a few more again when using VPNs
2276 2011-07-23 19:39:41 <WakiMiko> hmm
2277 2011-07-23 19:40:14 <Dagger2> and because there's enough space to do so, you may as well assign all your customers a /48 -- if they only ever use one /64 from it, it's no big deal
2278 2011-07-23 19:40:55 <sipa> devrandom: fixed and rebased
2279 2011-07-23 19:41:06 <sipa> luke-jr: teredo and 6to4 now share groups with the ipv4 space
2280 2011-07-23 19:41:09 Folklore has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2281 2011-07-23 19:41:27 <sipa> and /32 groups for ipv6 are used
2282 2011-07-23 19:41:55 <luke-jr> btw, does the IPv6 part work? :D
2283 2011-07-23 19:42:05 <sipa> yes
2284 2011-07-23 19:42:19 <sipa> bitcoin.sipa.be runs an IPv6-accessible node
2285 2011-07-23 19:42:33 <sipa> with 25 reserved IPv6 slots
2286 2011-07-23 19:43:31 <luke-jr> cool
2287 2011-07-23 19:44:33 <sipa> it's tested on linux and osx, and devrandom was doing tests on ming
2288 2011-07-23 19:44:51 <sipa> (just a simple test whether -connect=[ipv6 address] is able to connect)
2289 2011-07-23 19:49:55 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2290 2011-07-23 19:50:01 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2295 2011-07-23 19:54:35 <devrandom> sipa - compiles
2296 2011-07-23 19:54:49 <sipa> devrandom: nice
2297 2011-07-23 19:54:53 <sipa> can you run it?
2298 2011-07-23 19:55:32 <devrandom> sipa: yes, will be a few minutes
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2303 2011-07-23 20:03:37 Silverpike has joined
2304 2011-07-23 20:05:50 <sipa> hi TD
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2306 2011-07-23 20:07:45 aviadbd has joined
2307 2011-07-23 20:08:16 <aviadbd> is there a wiki for bitcoin developers ?
2308 2011-07-23 20:08:21 <aviadbd> the general wiki is just not satisfactory. :)
2309 2011-07-23 20:08:25 ahbritto has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2310 2011-07-23 20:08:56 <diki> oh, and what exactly are you going to develop?
2311 2011-07-23 20:09:38 <aviadbd> probably something to calculate hashes.
2312 2011-07-23 20:10:25 <aviadbd> and all I need is some good reference
2313 2011-07-23 20:10:38 <aviadbd> (and not a lot of really optimized code... )
2314 2011-07-23 20:10:53 <sipa> aviadbd: looking at the sources of cpuminer is probably the easiest
2315 2011-07-23 20:13:25 ahbritto has joined
2316 2011-07-23 20:15:37 <aviadbd> sipa: thanks, i'll give it a look
2317 2011-07-23 20:16:59 ewal has joined
2318 2011-07-23 20:19:44 genjix has joined
2319 2011-07-23 20:24:12 <luke-jr> aviadbd: the bitcoin.it wiki is primarily for developers/specs
2320 2011-07-23 20:24:23 <genjix> luke-jr: it is? :p
2321 2011-07-23 20:24:39 <luke-jr> yes
2322 2011-07-23 20:25:11 <aviadbd> luke-jr: must be written by people who don't like developers then
2323 2011-07-23 20:25:17 <aviadbd> :P
2324 2011-07-23 20:25:23 <genjix> i don't like developers
2325 2011-07-23 20:25:25 <genjix> grrrr
2326 2011-07-23 20:25:47 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2327 2011-07-23 20:27:11 sacredchao has joined
2328 2011-07-23 20:27:54 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2329 2011-07-23 20:29:33 Workbench has joined
2330 2011-07-23 20:29:40 <aviadbd> hmm
2331 2011-07-23 20:29:53 <aviadbd> cpu-miner assumes someone else opens the target from the bits in the header
2332 2011-07-23 20:30:06 <aviadbd> (the pool i suppose)
2333 2011-07-23 20:30:18 <genjix> luke-jr: what happened to you commit bot?
2334 2011-07-23 20:30:27 <luke-jr> genjix: what?
2335 2011-07-23 20:30:43 <genjix> the bot with commit summaries + diffs
2336 2011-07-23 20:30:47 <aviadbd> is that what all miners do? I thought the block header is what's passed to them.
2337 2011-07-23 20:30:55 <luke-jr> genjix: nothing?
2338 2011-07-23 20:31:20 <genjix> luke-jr: ah. then would you add https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin ?
2339 2011-07-23 20:31:29 <luke-jr> genjix: feel free :P
2340 2011-07-23 20:31:43 <genjix> how do i do that exactly?
2341 2011-07-23 20:31:57 <genjix> i add a committer right?
2342 2011-07-23 20:32:13 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/
2343 2011-07-23 20:32:23 <luke-jr> if it's based on bitcoind, scroll down and click on that
2344 2011-07-23 20:32:27 <luke-jr> then at the top, click 'fork'
2345 2011-07-23 20:32:35 <genjix> ahh awesome
2346 2011-07-23 20:32:46 <genjix> nope it's a new project
2347 2011-07-23 20:33:01 <luke-jr> under "Commit notify - CIA project name:", put "bitcoin/libbitcoin"
2348 2011-07-23 20:33:11 <luke-jr> O.o
2349 2011-07-23 20:33:14 <luke-jr> it is?
2350 2011-07-23 20:33:24 <genjix> yes
2351 2011-07-23 20:33:39 <genjix> it asks for an admin password
2352 2011-07-23 20:33:52 <luke-jr> make one up
2353 2011-07-23 20:34:19 <genjix> ahh ok
2354 2011-07-23 20:34:30 <genjix> ilovelukejr
2355 2011-07-23 20:34:34 <luke-jr> genjix: you realize there was already a libbitcoin concept? :/
2356 2011-07-23 20:34:37 <genjix> jk
2357 2011-07-23 20:34:41 <devrandom> lastlog connect
2358 2011-07-23 20:34:44 <devrandom> oops
2359 2011-07-23 20:34:46 <luke-jr> maybe call yours libbitcoin-2 in BitGit or smth
2360 2011-07-23 20:36:32 <genjix> refusing to create project with invalid name (https://git.gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin)! at Girocco/Project.pm line 258.
2361 2011-07-23 20:36:35 <genjix> refusing to create project with invalid name (https://git.gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin)! at Girocco/Project.pm line 258.
2362 2011-07-23 20:36:38 <genjix> oops
2363 2011-07-23 20:36:41 <luke-jr> …
2364 2011-07-23 20:37:36 <genjix> yep it keeps erroring
2365 2011-07-23 20:38:11 <sipa> devrandom: any progress?
2366 2011-07-23 20:38:24 <aviadbd> do you know where i can find a function that takes the Bits part of the block header and translates it to the 256bit target?
2367 2011-07-23 20:38:39 <aviadbd> (cpu-miner doesn't have it...)
2368 2011-07-23 20:39:02 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2369 2011-07-23 20:39:02 <sipa> aviadbd: SetCompact() in uint256.h in the bitcoin source
2370 2011-07-23 20:39:33 <aviadbd> sipa: whoa, whoa! let me see.. I didn't think of going there. :P
2371 2011-07-23 20:39:39 <sipa> aviadbd: sorry, bignum.h
2372 2011-07-23 20:39:46 <devrandom> sipa: forgot to ask, how do I get ipv6 connectivity on xp?
2373 2011-07-23 20:40:06 davex__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2374 2011-07-23 20:40:08 <sipa> devrandom: teredo?
2375 2011-07-23 20:40:23 <sipa> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb968771(v=vs.85).aspx
2376 2011-07-23 20:40:33 <devrandom> sipa: ok
2377 2011-07-23 20:40:46 Raccoon` has joined
2378 2011-07-23 20:41:23 bitcoinTrader has left ()
2379 2011-07-23 20:41:26 <sipa> devrandom: this worries me, though: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa916826.aspx
2380 2011-07-23 20:43:19 <upb> http://88.80.13.24/bitcointrader.2011.07.23.txt
2381 2011-07-23 20:43:21 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you mean this? https://github.com/prusnak/libbitcoin
2382 2011-07-23 20:43:23 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2383 2011-07-23 20:43:23 <upb> ^== foodstamp
2384 2011-07-23 20:43:43 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I mean the abstract concept of the bitcoind/wxbitcoin code being split off from protocol/GUI
2385 2011-07-23 20:43:44 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2386 2011-07-23 20:43:44 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
2387 2011-07-23 20:43:57 <luke-jr> genjix: project name is not a URI
2388 2011-07-23 20:43:59 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, oh.. yeah honestly i dont see that happening any time soon
2389 2011-07-23 20:44:07 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: it's not hard
2390 2011-07-23 20:44:17 <luke-jr> I could probably do it in an hour
2391 2011-07-23 20:44:23 <erus`> libbitcoin seems a bit bare
2392 2011-07-23 20:44:35 <upb> i would +b you.know.ircislife.com :)
2393 2011-07-23 20:44:42 <devrandom> sipa: it will take me awhile, this machine has xp sp1, upgrading to sp2
2394 2011-07-23 20:44:53 <sipa> devrandom: take your time :)
2395 2011-07-23 20:44:54 <phantomcircuit> erus`, actually implementing bitcoin isn't as hard as you'd think
2396 2011-07-23 20:45:22 <phantomcircuit> most of the bitcoinwx code is boiler plate and gui
2397 2011-07-23 20:45:43 <erus`> phantomcircuit: i think there is a bug in your encode function
2398 2011-07-23 20:45:44 <erus`> :)
2399 2011-07-23 20:46:03 nus has joined
2400 2011-07-23 20:46:04 <genjix> luke-jr: how does libbitcoin_ sound as a name?
2401 2011-07-23 20:46:13 shermanash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2402 2011-07-23 20:46:15 <luke-jr> genjix: shrug
2403 2011-07-23 20:46:16 <phantomcircuit> erus`, that github link isn't our code ;)
2404 2011-07-23 20:46:28 <luke-jr> genjix: maybe look at what other naming conflicts have done?
2405 2011-07-23 20:46:33 shermanash has joined
2406 2011-07-23 20:46:38 <genjix> luke-jr: so is libbitcoin fine for you? because i prefer that name really
2407 2011-07-23 20:46:49 <genjix> but wanna respect your wishes since it's your site :p
2408 2011-07-23 20:47:10 <erus`> im gonna make the best damn bitcoin library
2409 2011-07-23 20:47:29 <sipa> i think a lot of "libbitcoin" ideas have started already - some with, some without implementation
2410 2011-07-23 20:47:51 <devrandom> sipa: so you have to enable PROTECTION_LEVEL_UNRESTRICTED?
2411 2011-07-23 20:47:56 <sipa> personally, i'd prefer that name to be reserved for a library based on the satoshi client's source code
2412 2011-07-23 20:48:44 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2413 2011-07-23 20:48:50 <sipa> devrandom: i think so
2414 2011-07-23 20:49:01 <phantomcircuit> genjix, i just did it..
2415 2011-07-23 20:49:08 <phantomcircuit> commit something
2416 2011-07-23 20:49:09 E-sense has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2417 2011-07-23 20:50:06 <genjix> phantomcircuit: aha ok
2418 2011-07-23 20:50:07 <sipa> devrandom: ok, updated, i've added a call to set the protection level
2419 2011-07-23 20:51:32 abishai has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2420 2011-07-23 20:52:21 abishai has joined
2421 2011-07-23 20:52:47 abishai is now known as Guest87553
2422 2011-07-23 20:53:11 <genjix> erus`: this is our code (not the link before), https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin
2423 2011-07-23 20:54:59 Clipse has joined
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2426 2011-07-23 20:59:50 asuk has joined
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2431 2011-07-23 21:12:22 <devrandom> sipa: it works.  but I didn't try your latest - that would require you connecting to me
2432 2011-07-23 21:13:02 asuk_ has joined
2433 2011-07-23 21:13:11 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2434 2011-07-23 21:14:04 <devrandom> sipa: this is on win7
2435 2011-07-23 21:14:19 <devrandom> had a vm lying around
2436 2011-07-23 21:14:29 <sipa> define "works" ? :)
2437 2011-07-23 21:15:19 <sipa> it connects and starts downloading blocks over ipv6?
2438 2011-07-23 21:15:26 <devrandom> yes
2439 2011-07-23 21:15:43 <devrandom> and checked that netstat shows the ipv6 connection
2440 2011-07-23 21:15:54 * sipa does happy dance and pull request
2441 2011-07-23 21:16:01 <devrandom> :)
2442 2011-07-23 21:16:04 <b4epoche_> great!
2443 2011-07-23 21:16:36 <devrandom> sipa: do you want to try to connect to me?
2444 2011-07-23 21:17:05 <sipa> maybe some logic that finds local ipv6 addresses if no ipv4 ones are available
2445 2011-07-23 21:17:16 <sipa> devrandom: not now
2446 2011-07-23 21:17:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: before you pull req one of the dnsseeds needs ipv6 addresses
2447 2011-07-23 21:19:55 <devrandom> sipa: ok
2448 2011-07-23 21:21:44 asuk_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2449 2011-07-23 21:22:44 wardearia has joined
2450 2011-07-23 21:23:24 groffer has quit (Quit: leaving)
2451 2011-07-23 21:24:10 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r82c48a8ec63e /LICENSE: removed address.
2452 2011-07-23 21:24:18 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2453 2011-07-23 21:25:14 lolwat` has joined
2454 2011-07-23 21:25:53 <sipa> devrandom: ok, i'm compiling bitcoin-ipv6 on my laptop now
2455 2011-07-23 21:26:24 senseles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2456 2011-07-23 21:26:42 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2457 2011-07-23 21:27:15 jargon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2458 2011-07-23 21:27:29 danbri has joined
2459 2011-07-23 21:28:06 genjix has left ()
2460 2011-07-23 21:29:50 <lolwat`> gmaxwell do you have a particular image you are fond of that can be my first upload experiment
2461 2011-07-23 21:31:50 <cjdelisle> image?
2462 2011-07-23 21:31:55 <cjdelisle> how about sony's keys?
2463 2011-07-23 21:32:06 <jrmithdobbs> that's not pd
2464 2011-07-23 21:33:09 <cjdelisle> That is a serious issue though and you will have problems, I don't care what the lawyers say, when someone announces "When you download bitcoin you're downloading pedophiles" that is going to throw a wet blanket on it for a lot of people.
2465 2011-07-23 21:34:09 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r98bd3266da00 / (10 files in 6 dirs): proactor based API for storage module.
2466 2011-07-23 21:34:25 <jrmithdobbs> anyone happen to know what the unit "sm" is when refering to airplane range?
2467 2011-07-23 21:35:45 <devrandom> sipa: sorry, the words PROTECTION_LEVEL are not in any of the mingw32 / mingw32-runtime headers
2468 2011-07-23 21:36:21 <sipa> devrandom: i feared so...
2469 2011-07-23 21:37:06 nhodges has joined
2470 2011-07-23 21:38:28 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: isn't he.net's tunnels all on one /32?
2471 2011-07-23 21:38:36 <jrmithdobbs> so you can only connect to one person on he?
2472 2011-07-23 21:38:41 <jrmithdobbs> seems bad
2473 2011-07-23 21:38:42 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
2474 2011-07-23 21:38:55 pusle has quit ()
2475 2011-07-23 21:40:44 <devrandom> sipa: you can try hardcoding based on the numbers in the MS kb article
2476 2011-07-23 21:40:49 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
2477 2011-07-23 21:41:01 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: what is he.net ?
2478 2011-07-23 21:42:28 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: ok, a tunnel broker
2479 2011-07-23 21:42:33 <jrmithdobbs> not a
2480 2011-07-23 21:42:35 <jrmithdobbs> *the*
2481 2011-07-23 21:42:50 <jrmithdobbs> something like 60%+ of non-isp ipv6 goes through them
2482 2011-07-23 21:42:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah seriously other tunnel providers are terrible
2483 2011-07-23 21:43:08 <jrmithdobbs> think it's more like 80%+
2484 2011-07-23 21:43:26 <sipa> ok, that warrants an exception case, i guess
2485 2011-07-23 21:43:38 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's why i brought it up
2486 2011-07-23 21:44:16 <phantomcircuit> 2001:470:
2487 2011-07-23 21:44:18 <phantomcircuit> that's their prefix
2488 2011-07-23 21:44:34 <phantomcircuit> iirc everything after that is user specific
2489 2011-07-23 21:48:12 <jrmithdobbs> don't think so
2490 2011-07-23 21:48:26 viggi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2491 2011-07-23 21:48:28 <upb> that is the whole of HE.net netblock :D
2492 2011-07-23 21:48:37 <upb> not only the tunnel part
2493 2011-07-23 21:48:39 <phantomcircuit> hmm
2494 2011-07-23 21:48:46 <phantomcircuit> 2001:470:1f05:848::2
2495 2011-07-23 21:49:05 <phantomcircuit> i've seen tunnel addresses with out 1f05
2496 2011-07-23 21:49:36 TheZimm has joined
2497 2011-07-23 21:49:52 <phantomcircuit> 2001:470:1f05: 2001:470:1f04:
2498 2011-07-23 21:50:01 <phantomcircuit> the 2 sides of the tunnel
2499 2011-07-23 21:50:10 <upb> yeah they give /64's and /48's out of different prefixes
2500 2011-07-23 21:50:11 <phantomcircuit> so yeah i think they randomly assign you something in 2001:470:
2501 2011-07-23 21:50:25 <upb> but 2001:470:: is their whole block
2502 2011-07-23 21:50:32 <sipa> in 2011:740::/32 ?
2503 2011-07-23 21:50:35 <upb> what i'm saying is, they do a lot more than only tunnels
2504 2011-07-23 21:50:41 <phantomcircuit> yeah i think they give you random parts of their netblock
2505 2011-07-23 21:50:52 asuk has left ()
2506 2011-07-23 21:50:57 <sipa> so, when the address matches 2011:470::/32, i'll group per /48
2507 2011-07-23 21:51:05 asuk has joined
2508 2011-07-23 21:51:10 <sipa> or maybe per /40
2509 2011-07-23 21:51:31 <phantomcircuit> i can never remember my ip
2510 2011-07-23 21:52:09 <phantomcircuit> er
2511 2011-07-23 21:52:11 <phantomcircuit> password
2512 2011-07-23 21:52:12 <Eliel> cjdelisle: is illegal data in the blockchain really a problem? I mean, every one who doesn't want that on their system can just drop the transaction from the block, only keep the hash.
2513 2011-07-23 21:52:38 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2514 2011-07-23 21:52:53 thefinn93 has joined
2515 2011-07-23 21:53:15 MrTiggr has joined
2516 2011-07-23 21:53:29 viggi has joined
2517 2011-07-23 21:53:30 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i've got two /48s in the same /32 and 2 /64s in the same /32 (different /32 from the /48s)
2518 2011-07-23 21:53:36 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: without registering more than one account
2519 2011-07-23 21:54:12 <sipa> but there is only one /32 ?
2520 2011-07-23 21:54:25 <jrmithdobbs> no, looks like i was wrong on that
2521 2011-07-23 21:55:02 <jrmithdobbs> there's multiple /32s but they assign multiple accounts out of each
2522 2011-07-23 21:55:06 <jrmithdobbs> not sure how randomized it is
2523 2011-07-23 21:55:16 <sipa> i'm not following
2524 2011-07-23 21:55:30 <jrmithdobbs> 2001:470:1f0f:9a2::/64 2001:470:b827::/48
2525 2011-07-23 21:55:38 <jrmithdobbs> 2001:470:1f0f:a2a::/64 2001:470:bad0::/48
2526 2011-07-23 21:55:38 <sipa> those are in the same /32
2527 2011-07-23 21:55:42 thefinn93 has left ()
2528 2011-07-23 21:55:47 <sipa> all in the same /32
2529 2011-07-23 21:56:22 <upb> yes ffs
2530 2011-07-23 21:56:23 <upb> Hurricane Electric, Inc. HURRICANE-IPV6 (NET6-2001-470-1) 2001:470:: - 2001:470:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF
2531 2011-07-23 21:56:39 <sipa> upb: thanks, that concludes it :)
2532 2011-07-23 21:59:07 <jrmithdobbs> lol this is a shit calculator
2533 2011-07-23 21:59:08 <jrmithdobbs> 2001:470:b827:: is not a valid IPv6 or IPv4 network address.
2534 2011-07-23 21:59:14 <jrmithdobbs> is too
2535 2011-07-23 21:59:51 <phantomcircuit> what said that?
2536 2011-07-23 21:59:57 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2537 2011-07-23 22:00:02 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.ipv6calculator.net/
2538 2011-07-23 22:00:03 <jrmithdobbs> lol
2539 2011-07-23 22:00:04 <Dagger2> it's "not usable" though; <prefix>::0 is the all-router anycast address
2540 2011-07-23 22:00:16 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: stil valid
2541 2011-07-23 22:01:26 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: and it says the same thing adding 1 to the end which is most def valid and usable ;p
2542 2011-07-23 22:02:17 <Dagger2> clearly what it actually wants is a subnet
2543 2011-07-23 22:02:49 <JFK911> i'm using ::0
2544 2011-07-23 22:02:53 <jrmithdobbs> Dagger2: without the /* /128 is implied
2545 2011-07-23 22:03:52 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: those are all in diff /40s btw
2546 2011-07-23 22:04:33 <jrmithdobbs> and under my control (and 1 more /64 and /48 could be which would also be in diff /40s ... without multiple accounts)
2547 2011-07-23 22:04:48 <jrmithdobbs> so maybe /39?
2548 2011-07-23 22:04:55 <Dagger2> JFK911: hence the quotes... so am I, but it's *supposed* to be used by all routers on the link, or something along those lines
2549 2011-07-23 22:05:02 <cjdelisle> Eliel: If you drop a transaction and you don't at least keep it's inputs then you don't know that it wasn't part of a doublespending scheme.
2550 2011-07-23 22:05:06 <JFK911> heh
2551 2011-07-23 22:05:57 <Eliel> cjdelisle: oh yeah, you also need to mark that transaction's input as spent somewhere.
2552 2011-07-23 22:07:17 <WakiMiko> sipcalc is pretty good
2553 2011-07-23 22:07:43 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: preventing sybil with v6 is hard
2554 2011-07-23 22:08:09 <sipa> yes
2555 2011-07-23 22:08:18 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: also, did you add addr.dat pruning and make all the addr's not stored in memory?
2556 2011-07-23 22:08:25 <jrmithdobbs> because imho it shouldn't be merged to master until that's done
2557 2011-07-23 22:09:03 <jrmithdobbs> also fix the "store every timestamp we ever receive forever in memory until we restart" thing
2558 2011-07-23 22:09:25 <phantomcircuit> fuck just dump addr.dat
2559 2011-07-23 22:09:25 <jrmithdobbs> or you can memory exhaust any node with a /48
2560 2011-07-23 22:09:35 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2561 2011-07-23 22:09:42 <phantomcircuit> actually ill add timestamps to it
2562 2011-07-23 22:09:44 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: good point
2563 2011-07-23 22:12:14 Spleenie_ is now known as kish`
2564 2011-07-23 22:12:25 <prof7bit> in my client i'm currently storing the latest 2000 IP addresses (newest timestamps) on disk (not in RAM) and on restart I seed and on client restart I try random entries from this DB with very short connection timeout until it succeeds.
2565 2011-07-23 22:12:32 asuk has quit (Quit: leaving)
2566 2011-07-23 22:12:36 gary2113 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2567 2011-07-23 22:13:01 <sipa> that's probably a better scheme already
2568 2011-07-23 22:13:08 <prof7bit> on estart i seed with additional ips from DNS and then use random numbers (from the seed and the db)
2569 2011-07-23 22:13:13 <jrmithdobbs> you almost have to dump addr.dat completely to do ipv6 safely
2570 2011-07-23 22:13:16 <jrmithdobbs> in a non-dosable way
2571 2011-07-23 22:13:18 genjix has joined
2572 2011-07-23 22:13:21 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG
2573 2011-07-23 22:13:27 <genjix> step 2 under how it works
2574 2011-07-23 22:13:31 <genjix> i think that's wrong
2575 2011-07-23 22:13:50 <genjix> it goes from the *last* OP_CODESEPERATOR, not the first
2576 2011-07-23 22:13:54 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2577 2011-07-23 22:13:59 <genjix> unless i'm misunderstanding most recent
2578 2011-07-23 22:14:17 <prof7bit> for storage I use a simple dBase 3 file with timestamp and address indexes, address is IPV6 and port
2579 2011-07-23 22:14:19 <jrmithdobbs> most recent parsed
2580 2011-07-23 22:14:25 <jrmithdobbs> so ya last
2581 2011-07-23 22:14:25 <lolwat`> most recent when you execute OP_CHECKSIG
2582 2011-07-23 22:14:31 <lolwat`> which would be the last
2583 2011-07-23 22:14:32 <genjix> k, well im going to reword that.
2584 2011-07-23 22:14:41 <jrmithdobbs> just add the word parsed
2585 2011-07-23 22:14:42 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
2586 2011-07-23 22:15:31 <genjix> ok
2587 2011-07-23 22:16:35 <lolwat`> does vinced or anyone who did merged mining ever come in her
2588 2011-07-23 22:16:39 <lolwat`> here
2589 2011-07-23 22:17:30 <cjdelisle> AFAIK vinced did not implement merged mining
2590 2011-07-23 22:17:33 asuk has joined
2591 2011-07-23 22:18:05 <prof7bit> when a new address comes in then the oldest one is deleted from the db (i move the cursor to it and overwrite with new address)
2592 2011-07-23 22:18:35 <prof7bit> is extremely fast.
2593 2011-07-23 22:18:48 <prof7bit> although 2 indexes must update
2594 2011-07-23 22:19:32 <genjix> is this wrong too? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Addresses
2595 2011-07-23 22:19:48 <genjix> checksum = first 4 bytes of sha256 hash
2596 2011-07-23 22:19:55 <genjix> well ssl gives the sha's backwards
2597 2011-07-23 22:20:10 <prof7bit> maybe 2000 is even too much. in my experimemts i could connect alone from the DNS seed to 10 client in less than 10 seconds
2598 2011-07-23 22:20:13 <genjix> so technically it's the last 4 bytes, no?
2599 2011-07-23 22:20:49 <sipa> genjix: depends on how you look at it, i guess
2600 2011-07-23 22:20:52 <genjix> especially since when we talk about hashes in bitcoin we use the reversed format
2601 2011-07-23 22:21:05 <genjix> i.e the 0's in blocks come at the start not the end
2602 2011-07-23 22:21:10 <sipa> "first" and "last" are almost everywhere ambiguous anyway
2603 2011-07-23 22:21:19 <prof7bit> first 4 as they come from openssl
2604 2011-07-23 22:21:31 amiller has joined
2605 2011-07-23 22:21:46 <sacarlson> lolwat`: I'm in the process of learning about merged mining
2606 2011-07-23 22:22:32 <lolwat`> im trying to understand if there may be a way to do it obliviously to the miners
2607 2011-07-23 22:22:54 <lolwat`> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=31111.0
2608 2011-07-23 22:23:08 <lolwat`> merged mining as now is pretty simple
2609 2011-07-23 22:23:21 <lolwat`> stick a hash of w/e you want to verify (e.g. namecoin block header) in the coinbase
2610 2011-07-23 22:23:33 <sacarlson> lolwat`: it would seem to be simple but I have as yet been able to setup a proto type with it
2611 2011-07-23 22:23:50 <lolwat`> it would be nice if there were a way to do it without needing to store in coinbase, where it could be stored anywhere
2612 2011-07-23 22:23:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: if all your tunnels are in separate /40's, isn't /39's too large still as well?
2613 2011-07-23 22:24:10 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: and shouldn't you use something like /56
2614 2011-07-23 22:24:15 <sipa> /36
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2617 2011-07-23 22:26:30 <sacarlson> lolwat`: I'm also not sure if the added lag to publish on the parant chain would add to the cost if someone was to get a solution published before you
2618 2011-07-23 22:27:00 <lolwat`> sacarlson, ?
2619 2011-07-23 22:27:35 <sacarlson> lolwat`: for merge mining you pass through the proxy that must add some time but maybe very little
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2622 2011-07-23 22:27:57 <lolwat`> i mean
2623 2011-07-23 22:28:11 <lolwat`> that lag is totally negligible if your world is based on a 10 minute clock tick anyway
2624 2011-07-23 22:29:17 <sacarlson> lolwat`: I'm not sure it's a race many to find the first solution so when you arive at it I'm not sure how long it would be if you weren't the one to have found it
2625 2011-07-23 22:29:23 <cjdelisle> sacarlson: Congrats on the multicoin stuff, that is really neat work.
2626 2011-07-23 22:30:07 <sacarlson> cjdelisle: It's not really much of my work its just pulled together work of others
2627 2011-07-23 22:30:07 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: they're actually in two different /33s
2628 2011-07-23 22:30:14 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: (total between the 4)
2629 2011-07-23 22:30:18 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: hmm
2630 2011-07-23 22:30:45 sanity has joined
2631 2011-07-23 22:31:50 <lolwat`> sacarlson, I don't understand...
2632 2011-07-23 22:31:53 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2633 2011-07-23 22:33:10 <sacarlson> lolwat`: for one thing I don't know the time lag since I don't have a working model yet.  if the time is very small then it should cost nothing
2634 2011-07-23 22:33:23 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2635 2011-07-23 22:33:28 <lolwat`> time lag for what precisely
2636 2011-07-23 22:34:08 <sacarlson> lolwat`: when you come to a solution you must be the first to publish it as being the new solution correct?
2637 2011-07-23 22:34:15 <prof7bit> <genjix> i.e the 0's in blocks come at the start not the end  <--- endianness can be a never ending source of confusion. 0's at the start would be big endian.
2638 2011-07-23 22:34:41 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: no
2639 2011-07-23 22:34:48 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: lowest hash wins
2640 2011-07-23 22:35:00 <prof7bit> yes
2641 2011-07-23 22:35:08 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs:  oh I didn't know that
2642 2011-07-23 22:35:30 <lolwat`> jrmithdobbs, where is that logic?  I didn't know about any testing of the hash below if it's below target
2643 2011-07-23 22:35:32 <prof7bit> and the 0's are the high bytes
2644 2011-07-23 22:35:40 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2645 2011-07-23 22:35:43 <lolwat`> beyond if its below target *
2646 2011-07-23 22:35:46 <prof7bit> and high bytes at the start is BIG endian
2647 2011-07-23 22:35:56 <jrmithdobbs> lolwat`: reorg/longest chain code
2648 2011-07-23 22:36:01 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: ya I think your right even if someone came to a new solution it would just become the next in the chain
2649 2011-07-23 22:36:09 <jrmithdobbs> no
2650 2011-07-23 22:36:16 Diablo-D3 has joined
2651 2011-07-23 22:36:25 <jrmithdobbs> it would replace yours if it was lower or be ignored if it wasn't
2652 2011-07-23 22:36:30 <jrmithdobbs> it has the same "parent" block
2653 2011-07-23 22:36:33 <prof7bit> (like written in arabic numerals) little endian is higher bytes to the right (end)
2654 2011-07-23 22:36:33 <jrmithdobbs> so it can't be after your block
2655 2011-07-23 22:36:54 spiky has joined
2656 2011-07-23 22:37:03 <prof7bit> like i said it can be a source of confusion
2657 2011-07-23 22:37:19 spiky is now known as Guest6204
2658 2011-07-23 22:37:20 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes sorry correct assuming it was a tie other wise everyone would start working on the new solution for that added chain
2659 2011-07-23 22:37:48 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: if it was a "tie" said tie would be broken by whichever was considered the parent for the next found and broadcast
2660 2011-07-23 22:37:56 <prof7bit> the bits that count lowest  come first in little endian (and last in big endian)
2661 2011-07-23 22:38:30 Titeuf_87 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2662 2011-07-23 22:38:33 <jrmithdobbs> and the odds of two independent miners "tieing" on the hash value is so astronomical to be impossible for all intents and purposes
2663 2011-07-23 22:38:51 <lolwat`> jrmithdobbs, I don't see it?  Reorganize in main.cpp?
2664 2011-07-23 22:39:00 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes and even if you had a better solution than someone else if you delayed to broadcast they would win as why I say I'm not sure what the cost of added time to broadcast would be
2665 2011-07-23 22:39:10 <lolwat`> I just see the height compare
2666 2011-07-23 22:39:30 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: when you use pi, you're using child porn.
2667 2011-07-23 22:39:38 <gmaxwell> (pi contains all strings)
2668 2011-07-23 22:40:05 <lolwat`> gmaxwell! what would you like me to inject to test my script, I will let you pick the image (if it's legal ofcourse)
2669 2011-07-23 22:40:06 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: if you had a better solution and delayed broadcast, so long as you did not delay longer than it takes to find the NEXT solution, so no
2670 2011-07-23 22:40:24 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: your assumptions are wrong
2671 2011-07-23 22:40:31 <jrmithdobbs> lolwat`: i'd have to look
2672 2011-07-23 22:40:49 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: You don't need to explain to me the law and I hope I don't need to explain to you public relations.
2673 2011-07-23 22:41:00 <jrmithdobbs> lolwat`: it's in there somewhere. this is why there are very commonly abandoned blocks (like 1 every 24-96 hours)
2674 2011-07-23 22:41:03 <prof7bit> how much bandwidth are you saving if you are transmitting the number of the starting bit and the length instead of just trasmitting it directly?
2675 2011-07-23 22:41:20 <cjdelisle> The risk is that it can be used as a PR stunt because it would be technically true that you are downloading CP when you download the blockchain.
2676 2011-07-23 22:41:55 spirals is now known as spirals_away
2677 2011-07-23 22:42:04 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2679 2011-07-23 22:42:34 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
2680 2011-07-23 22:42:37 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: in fact, it is actually in your *interest* to delay broadcast when your solution is extremely low
2681 2011-07-23 22:42:43 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: well that's good to hear since I plan to implement it in my chains
2682 2011-07-23 22:42:47 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: "lowest hash wins" -> no, all hashes that are low enough win
2683 2011-07-23 22:43:05 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: because then you can work on the solution for the next block for a given amount of time while others waste effort on the old work
2684 2011-07-23 22:43:22 <lolwat`> sipa, that's what I thought
2685 2011-07-23 22:43:23 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: if two blocks with same parent with valid solutions exist the lowest hash wins, no?
2686 2011-07-23 22:43:44 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: wow cool they have an algorithm for that if you find a better solution than is needed?
2687 2011-07-23 22:43:46 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: no
2688 2011-07-23 22:43:47 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: it's technically true that you're using childporn when you use pi. It's also easy to find examples of strings involuntarily loaded into other information sources like newspaper classifieds.
2689 2011-07-23 22:43:56 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: the one that is seen first wins
2690 2011-07-23 22:44:15 <jrmithdobbs> you sure on that?
2691 2011-07-23 22:44:21 <sipa> absolutely
2692 2011-07-23 22:44:32 <gmaxwell> He's correct, I've been incorrect on that in the past.
2693 2011-07-23 22:44:36 <prof7bit> " that you're using" <-- wrong. Not *using*.
2694 2011-07-23 22:44:37 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: wow I was right??  go figure
2695 2011-07-23 22:44:46 <gmaxwell> Though by wins it means 'locally' wins.
2696 2011-07-23 22:44:48 <jrmithdobbs> first time for everything ;p
2697 2011-07-23 22:44:50 <gmaxwell> Not wins forever.
2698 2011-07-23 22:44:54 <jrmithdobbs> so really
2699 2011-07-23 22:44:55 <sipa> there is no matric of candidate hashes being better or worse
2700 2011-07-23 22:44:58 <jrmithdobbs> it's first to extended wins
2701 2011-07-23 22:45:03 <sipa> it's just good enough or not good enough
2702 2011-07-23 22:45:04 <jrmithdobbs> s/to/to get/
2703 2011-07-23 22:45:05 <lolwat`> yeah  in general that would be a bad idea
2704 2011-07-23 22:45:18 <lolwat`> to count "work done" by 1/hash value
2705 2011-07-23 22:45:20 <gmaxwell> well, it's a tradeoff of compromises.
2706 2011-07-23 22:45:37 <lolwat`> because then you'd have like, e.g. that dude who mined a block valid for difficulty of 35 billion
2707 2011-07-23 22:45:45 <lolwat`> could wait and broadcast it a year later
2708 2011-07-23 22:45:48 <gmaxwell> The way it currently works rewards better network connectivity more strongly.
2709 2011-07-23 22:46:00 <sipa> lolwat`: but it is not valid for difficulty of 35 billion, because the difficilty is encoded in the block
2710 2011-07-23 22:46:20 <sipa> you need to decide your own difficulty before starting to mine
2711 2011-07-23 22:46:23 <jrmithdobbs> and if the difficulty gets to 35 billion the parent will need to bedifferent
2712 2011-07-23 22:46:31 <lolwat`> sipa, yes I know, I mean if chain reorg was decided by the hash value and not the difficulty written there
2713 2011-07-23 22:46:38 <sipa> and that difficulty, not the actual hash obtained, is the expected number of hashes done
2714 2011-07-23 22:46:44 <gmaxwell> lolwat`: ... no, you wouldn't have to do that, you could prefer lowest value top among all chains of the same sum-target difficulty.
2715 2011-07-23 22:46:57 <lolwat`> sipa, I am saying precisely why using the difficulty is right and using the hash itself is bad
2716 2011-07-23 22:46:57 <sacarlson> lolwat`: so back to the fact that the added delay might be at some cost
2717 2011-07-23 22:47:20 <lolwat`> so its pretty easy to know what the cost is
2718 2011-07-23 22:47:24 <jrmithdobbs> lolwat`: if it worked like i thought it did it actually wouldn't be bad at all because longest chain still wins, your example wouldn't cause a reorg even if it would work
2719 2011-07-23 22:47:25 <sipa> lolwat`: ok, then we're saying the same thing :)
2720 2011-07-23 22:47:30 <gmaxwell> so once once it was was extended once, it wouldn't matter any more how much below target it was.
2721 2011-07-23 22:48:14 <lolwat`> jrmithdobbs, huh? it would be very bad.  Imagine if the guy who solved the 35 billion difficulty block said "hey let me just hold onto this for say, a year"
2722 2011-07-23 22:48:32 <jrmithdobbs> lolwat`: wouldn't matter
2723 2011-07-23 22:48:52 <lolwat`> ? if you count work by 1/hash, it does matter
2724 2011-07-23 22:49:24 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: it would matter
2725 2011-07-23 22:49:40 <sipa> if i accidentally find a hash that is 100 times lower than expected
2726 2011-07-23 22:49:50 <sipa> i can hold onto it for 100 blocks, and then publish it
2727 2011-07-23 22:50:03 <lolwat`> sacarlson, say the block finding is distributed exponentially with mean 10 minutes
2728 2011-07-23 22:50:05 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: we already have split nets, your method would just open up the posibiltiy of more of them
2729 2011-07-23 22:50:05 <sipa> instantly reverting the 100 blocks found in between
2730 2011-07-23 22:50:06 <jrmithdobbs> ok yes 100 blocks
2731 2011-07-23 22:50:08 <jrmithdobbs> but not a year
2732 2011-07-23 22:50:18 <prof7bit> how would you work the new hash of the previous plock into it?
2733 2011-07-23 22:50:20 <sipa> yes, he was exxagerating, but the issue would be very real
2734 2011-07-23 22:50:29 <prof7bit> block
2735 2011-07-23 22:50:40 <sipa> prof7bit: not
2736 2011-07-23 22:50:48 <gmaxwell> This all goes away when you only use it to tiebreak the topmost block.
2737 2011-07-23 22:50:49 <lolwat`> sacarlson, and I find a block at time 0.  If the "lag" is t, then the probability I get scooped is just the probability an exponential with mean 10 minutes takes value below t
2738 2011-07-23 22:51:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree, but i'm not convinced it's useful there
2739 2011-07-23 22:51:24 Guest6204 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2740 2011-07-23 22:51:25 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: i'm not proposing it, it seems i misread something
2741 2011-07-23 22:51:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: Well, it removes some incentives for network connectivity funnybusiness if people went along with the change.
2742 2011-07-23 22:51:43 <prof7bit> isnt the hash of the previous part of the header? you cannot put your block into any other place in the chain
2743 2011-07-23 22:51:53 <sacarlson> lolwat`:  ya it must be very small probability and with a fast proxy it would be almost imposible
2744 2011-07-23 22:52:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. right now a large miner will make slightly greater income by agressively filling everyone's connections slots.
2745 2011-07-23 22:52:06 <sipa> prof7bit: that's the point exactly
2746 2011-07-23 22:52:16 <lolwat`> sacarlson, and for small values of t, that is roughly just t/10 minutes.  So a lag of 1 second adds a 1 in 600 chance of you getting scooped
2747 2011-07-23 22:52:35 <gmaxwell> If the lower value was the tiebreaker at the top of the chain then connectivity would be less of a factor.
2748 2011-07-23 22:52:48 <sipa> prof7bit: if you have a very good block T that successes block S, you could revert every "real" block found after S
2749 2011-07-23 22:53:03 <sacarlson> lolwat`: and the real lag will be measured in micro seconds at most
2750 2011-07-23 22:53:04 <sipa> that is, if 1/hash were used as metric, which it isn't
2751 2011-07-23 22:53:35 <lolwat`> er it wasn't an exaggeration at all
2752 2011-07-23 22:53:39 <prof7bit> ah, now i get ot
2753 2011-07-23 22:53:41 <prof7bit> it
2754 2011-07-23 22:53:48 <lolwat`> think about the distribution of hashes
2755 2011-07-23 22:54:15 <prof7bit> the total work of the chain up to this block, right?
2756 2011-07-23 22:54:20 <lolwat`> there will be a hash for which 1/H
2757 2011-07-23 22:54:31 <lolwat`> is about as big as the sum of 1/H_i for ALL previous H_i
2758 2011-07-23 22:55:23 <lolwat`> in other words, every 10k blocks, you expect a hash whose value is 10k times less than it needs to be
2759 2011-07-23 22:55:30 <sipa> devrandom: it seems IPV6_PROTECTION_LEVEL has existed since win xp, so i guess it should be possible to find it in headers
2760 2011-07-23 22:55:40 <lolwat`> meaning that person could then hold that block for 10k more blocks in your system
2761 2011-07-23 22:56:23 <lolwat`> or alternatively, about once a year someone would get a block whose hash is K times lower than the difficulty needed, where K is the number of blocks per year
2762 2011-07-23 22:56:50 <lolwat`> that person could reasonably hold that block for a year, in the system you describe jrmithdobbs
2763 2011-07-23 22:57:50 genjix has left ()
2764 2011-07-23 22:58:15 <sacarlson> lolwat`: I think jrmithdobbs has already agreed his was wrong
2765 2011-07-23 22:58:19 <prof7bit> maybe also put a lower boundary on allowed solutions. would change difficulty calculations a little bit but not the general principle.
2766 2011-07-23 22:58:45 <lolwat`> er ya but he said my point was an exaggeration
2767 2011-07-23 22:58:48 <lolwat`> and it's not at all
2768 2011-07-23 22:59:18 <prof7bit> x > hash > x/2 or so
2769 2011-07-23 23:00:17 <gmaxwell> In any case, while what jrmithdobbs thought it was doing has issues. Simply using sum1/target,1/topmost_hash  or sum1/target,top_hash or even something crazy like sum1/target,h(top_hash*per_node_random) would not have those issues, and would reduce the race incentive.
2770 2011-07-23 23:00:42 <gmaxwell> (though the last would have poor hash power concentration, which isn't great)
2771 2011-07-23 23:01:03 <lolwat`> i cannot read that at all
2772 2011-07-23 23:01:18 <AndyBr> ohai btw
2773 2011-07-23 23:01:29 <lolwat`> sum_{i=1}^T expession(i)
2774 2011-07-23 23:01:34 <jrmithdobbs> so right now
2775 2011-07-23 23:01:59 moa7 has joined
2776 2011-07-23 23:02:03 <jrmithdobbs> it is in any non-pool-miner's best interest to locate the transmitting addresses for the pools and udp flood them non-stop
2777 2011-07-23 23:02:26 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: even better to connect to them with black hole nodes and fill their connection slots.
2778 2011-07-23 23:02:36 <gmaxwell> (_and_ flood them)
2779 2011-07-23 23:02:40 <jrmithdobbs> ya even better
2780 2011-07-23 23:03:21 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: yes and I think that has happend,  that's why we need p2p mining
2781 2011-07-23 23:03:33 <jrmithdobbs> p2p mining doesn't solve that
2782 2011-07-23 23:03:43 <gmaxwell> p2p mining doesn't fix it either really, just changes the attack a bit.
2783 2011-07-23 23:03:54 <jrmithdobbs> it solves the udp flood part, somewhat, but not the connection slot filling
2784 2011-07-23 23:03:57 <sipa> and to prevent that, they would make their public nodes firewalled for incoming connections, and only do outgoing connections
2785 2011-07-23 23:04:08 <sipa> which should be quite effective, i think
2786 2011-07-23 23:04:31 <sipa> won't help against udp flooding, though
2787 2011-07-23 23:04:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: then you just spin up thousands of fake nodes... botnets get you good /16 diversity too.
2788 2011-07-23 23:05:02 <lolwat`> seems pretty easy to defend against
2789 2011-07-23 23:05:15 <lolwat`> you can insert your blocks from arbitrary points in the network
2790 2011-07-23 23:05:17 <gmaxwell> Miners should peer with each other to defend, but they currently don't.
2791 2011-07-23 23:05:37 <lolwat`> just need to maintain streams open to several insertion points
2792 2011-07-23 23:06:09 <gmaxwell> We also ought to have a special trusted addnode that reserves slots, can use another port, etc. Thats kinda been on my todo for a while.
2793 2011-07-23 23:06:21 Silverpike has quit ()
2794 2011-07-23 23:06:35 <lolwat`> a pool could even hand its block to its clients via some other channel
2795 2011-07-23 23:06:38 deadmause has joined
2796 2011-07-23 23:06:54 <lolwat`> if people can get work from the pool, they can get the mined block too, and then they can inject it into the network themselves
2797 2011-07-23 23:07:18 genjix has joined
2798 2011-07-23 23:07:18 <jrmithdobbs> except none of the mining software actually knows anything about anything but getwork, pretty much
2799 2011-07-23 23:07:28 <sipa> or we could move to a model where miners run their own nonce
2800 2011-07-23 23:07:44 <gmaxwell> Or even their own node!
2801 2011-07-23 23:07:44 <sipa> and just get the generation tx from the pool
2802 2011-07-23 23:07:44 <gmaxwell> ;)
2803 2011-07-23 23:07:51 <sacarlson> maybe some p2p clusters with one random chosen in each cluster to vpn to other clusters to strenghen?
2804 2011-07-23 23:07:52 <sipa> *node
2805 2011-07-23 23:08:08 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: udp the vpn link
2806 2011-07-23 23:08:13 <jrmithdobbs> s/udp/udp flood/
2807 2011-07-23 23:08:17 <jrmithdobbs> the endpoints for it
2808 2011-07-23 23:08:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats best, also closes of >50% attacks by pools.
2809 2011-07-23 23:08:32 Clipse has joined
2810 2011-07-23 23:08:36 <gmaxwell> s/of/off/
2811 2011-07-23 23:08:39 <sipa> indeed
2812 2011-07-23 23:08:39 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: how would they know witch link that was and there would be thousands of vpn's to break
2813 2011-07-23 23:09:06 <jrmithdobbs> thousands? what?
2814 2011-07-23 23:09:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: they just need to send the pool the header+coin+treefragment which, if encoded efficiently isn't really much more network traffic than the current model.
2815 2011-07-23 23:09:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: m0mchil is working on a protocol for that
2816 2011-07-23 23:10:18 <sacarlson> say a cluster only has a group of 10 to 20 in it then pick at random someone in that group to vpn to some random point of another...
2817 2011-07-23 23:10:54 genjix has left ()
2818 2011-07-23 23:11:12 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: so instead of having latency introduced by attacks introduce it on yourself for no gain? brilliant
2819 2011-07-23 23:11:43 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: I never said I was the smartest in the chain
2820 2011-07-23 23:11:43 <sipa> devrandom: try again? i've hardcoded the constants
2821 2011-07-23 23:12:34 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: not to mention that such a system would require a global set of nodes with redudant paths and distinct upstream providers
2822 2011-07-23 23:12:38 <gmaxwell> The problem with races is that it's very non-linear. If you can delay someone's blocks by 100ms you'll increase their orphan rate for blocks in that gap to 100%. Fortunately blocks are not often found 100ms apart. :)
2823 2011-07-23 23:13:02 genjix has joined
2824 2011-07-23 23:13:16 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: which is not something easy to do for use cases it make sense for, even ;p
2825 2011-07-23 23:13:18 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2826 2011-07-23 23:13:22 <genjix> hey, where can i see some use cases for the other transaction types?
2827 2011-07-23 23:13:48 MrTiggr has joined
2828 2011-07-23 23:13:58 <gmaxwell> genjix: https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/commit/dc2dfbab6a0f75070fc3b962da4eb2967e9659df
2829 2011-07-23 23:14:00 <sacarlson> genjix: escrow?
2830 2011-07-23 23:14:12 <devrandom> sipa: net.cpp:1759: error: expected ‘,’ or ‘;’ before ‘setsockopt’
2831 2011-07-23 23:14:46 <sacarlson> genjix: ya groffer I worked with him
2832 2011-07-23 23:15:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'd kinda like to get forwarding for pull 319 style transactions into .4 .. so that the damn things will actually work once they are enabled.
2833 2011-07-23 23:15:09 <genjix> sacarlson: super cool
2834 2011-07-23 23:15:13 <sipa> devrandom: fixed
2835 2011-07-23 23:15:50 aviadbd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2836 2011-07-23 23:15:53 <sacarlson> genjix: I'm not a smart programer like him I just helped test it
2837 2011-07-23 23:16:22 deadmause has quit (Quit: deadmause)
2838 2011-07-23 23:16:45 <genjix> gmaxwell: but this uses SIGHASH_ALL
2839 2011-07-23 23:16:48 <genjix> ahhh oops
2840 2011-07-23 23:16:51 <genjix> my bad
2841 2011-07-23 23:16:55 <genjix> i mean to say
2842 2011-07-23 23:17:11 <genjix> hey, where can i see some use cases for the other transaction types USING OTHER SIGHASH TYPES?
2843 2011-07-23 23:17:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well I have no problem adding them to IsStandard, but that pull does a ton more...in any case why are you asking me, I dont make decisions
2844 2011-07-23 23:17:14 <genjix> XD
2845 2011-07-23 23:18:13 <Eliel> BlueMatt: who makes the decisions?
2846 2011-07-23 23:18:24 <BlueMatt> Eliel: sipa, tcatm, jgarzik, and gavinandresen
2847 2011-07-23 23:18:30 <prof7bit> there is already p2p mining: its called "solo mining"
2848 2011-07-23 23:19:19 <genjix> it looks like SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY allows for an open transaction, but that;s already possible using script
2849 2011-07-23 23:19:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Because if I can't even get you to agree with me, then it's probably a waste of time to argue for it.
2850 2011-07-23 23:19:59 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2851 2011-07-23 23:20:16 <sacarlson> genjix: I'm still waiting for multi in pool multi out escrow or multi sign transactions
2852 2011-07-23 23:20:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: lol, well I would absolutely be in favor of adding a ton more stuff to IsStandard, but doing it in-client...maybe not yet?
2853 2011-07-23 23:21:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: right now Im of the opinion that adding more and more and more features just isnt what bitcoin needs, first code cleanup and libraritization, then let people add their own features via plugins or whatever
2854 2011-07-23 23:21:30 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: my client already has a setting to turn on and off IsStandard
2855 2011-07-23 23:21:38 <gmaxwell> well at least the escrow stuff has obvious super useful usecases, and an existing implementation. On the downside pull 349 needs to be resolved.
2856 2011-07-23 23:21:45 soap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2857 2011-07-23 23:21:57 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: Im not talking about turn it off, Im saying add more patterns to it
2858 2011-07-23 23:22:00 <sacarlson> we just need to learn how to create new type transactions
2859 2011-07-23 23:22:01 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: turning off isStandard is a pretty bad idea.
2860 2011-07-23 23:22:16 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: your client?
2861 2011-07-23 23:22:22 <BlueMatt> I dont think anyone would be against adding more patterns
2862 2011-07-23 23:22:27 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: MultiCoin
2863 2011-07-23 23:22:37 <BlueMatt> if thats all a pull does, Id bet it would be pulled quick
2864 2011-07-23 23:23:22 <prof7bit> do it slowly. start with a simple use case that everyone can understand and implement it in a user friendly way.
2865 2011-07-23 23:23:23 denisx has joined
2866 2011-07-23 23:23:27 <gmaxwell> Have you looked at pull 349?  I guess that would be the argument against addin the multisig stuff to isstandard quite yet.
2867 2011-07-23 23:23:40 <jrmithdobbs> sacarlson: link?
2868 2011-07-23 23:23:42 <devrandom> sipa: +    setsockopt(hListenSocket, IPPROTO_IPV6, nParameterId, (const char*)&nProtLevel, sizeof(int));
2869 2011-07-23 23:23:46 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: arguably thats what the escrow patch has down.
2870 2011-07-23 23:23:47 <prof7bit> and not a ton of complicated esoteric variations
2871 2011-07-23 23:23:56 <devrandom> sipa: it wants a const char*
2872 2011-07-23 23:24:06 <gmaxwell> s/down/done/
2873 2011-07-23 23:24:08 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.msg300830#msg300830
2874 2011-07-23 23:24:12 <sipa> devrandom: fine :)
2875 2011-07-23 23:24:17 <sipa> does it work that way?
2876 2011-07-23 23:24:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, that should be reviewed for 0.4 as well
2877 2011-07-23 23:24:35 <sipa> devrandom: i can try to connect to you, if you like :)
2878 2011-07-23 23:25:01 <devrandom> sipa: just a second
2879 2011-07-23 23:25:34 <sipa> devrandom: the setsockopt call on net.cpp:1731 doesn't fail?
2880 2011-07-23 23:25:47 <prof7bit> once people can use this and *understand* it (and can explain it to other people in simple terms) then new more complicated variations of this theme will become obvious. I'm for example still struggling to see how exactly this would work in *practise*.
2881 2011-07-23 23:25:57 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: these are the tests we did so far with multisign http://paste.ubuntu.com/637841/
2882 2011-07-23 23:28:02 <sacarlson> prof7bit: I can give you the poker example in words to give you an idea of a use of multi in multi out
2883 2011-07-23 23:28:57 <[Tycho]> How do those multisign txes work ?
2884 2011-07-23 23:29:20 <sacarlson> [Tycho]: did you read this?  http://paste.ubuntu.com/637841/
2885 2011-07-23 23:29:36 <devrandom> sipa: my windows vm broke...
2886 2011-07-23 23:29:47 <sipa> hehe
2887 2011-07-23 23:30:10 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2888 2011-07-23 23:30:11 <sipa> bbiaw
2889 2011-07-23 23:30:12 <prof7bit> i've read an explanation already and I *think* I *might* have understood at least the basic idea but i have no idea how i would explain this (and why it works and how it even *can* works) to my wife for example.
2890 2011-07-23 23:30:24 <devrandom> sipa: later
2891 2011-07-23 23:30:45 <sacarlson> [Tycho]: I've been buzy with other things I'll create more easy reading on escrows in the future
2892 2011-07-23 23:30:50 <b4epoche_> prof7bit:  "this"?
2893 2011-07-23 23:31:01 MrTiggr has joined
2894 2011-07-23 23:31:12 <[Tycho]> sacarlson, I was curious about the redeeming process
2895 2011-07-23 23:31:30 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: it works like escrow, both parties sign off that it is to be released as previously agreed upon
2896 2011-07-23 23:31:40 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: don't understand what you're asking?
2897 2011-07-23 23:31:41 <prof7bit> this == the more complex kinds of transactions with escrow, etc. that make heavy use of scripts
2898 2011-07-23 23:31:57 <jrmithdobbs> end users don't need to understand the script impl details
2899 2011-07-23 23:32:08 <[Tycho]> It's like one person "opens" the transaction, creating a new one that can be redeemed by the user ?
2900 2011-07-23 23:32:31 <sacarlson> Tycale: redeem is like a vote say you have 2 parties one sends the other recieves you also have a 3rd party added to break a tie in the event of a dispute
2901 2011-07-23 23:32:36 <b4epoche_> prof7bit:  you own a house?
2902 2011-07-23 23:32:45 <prof7bit> end users need to know what they are doning and what it means or it will look like voodoo to them and they will not accept it
2903 2011-07-23 23:32:48 <Tycale> ?
2904 2011-07-23 23:32:57 <prof7bit> house?
2905 2011-07-23 23:33:16 <b4epoche_> if you do, you've likely been through the escrow process...
2906 2011-07-23 23:33:17 <sacarlson> Tycale: or sorry [Tycho]
2907 2011-07-23 23:33:30 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: will not accept it? what end users do you speak of that don't think just about everything computer-related is voodoo already?
2908 2011-07-23 23:33:34 <b4epoche_> almost everyone goes through it with no friggin' idea what's really happening
2909 2011-07-23 23:33:40 <jrmithdobbs> i'd like to meet these mythical awesome end users
2910 2011-07-23 23:33:40 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
2911 2011-07-23 23:34:15 <prof7bit> b4epoche: i am talking about boitcoin. for many users even the way bitcoin works is not understood. not even remotely.
2912 2011-07-23 23:34:29 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: and yet they use it?
2913 2011-07-23 23:34:31 <b4epoche_> I know you're talking about bitcoin.
2914 2011-07-23 23:34:36 <prof7bit> many dont.
2915 2011-07-23 23:34:49 <sipa> i am talking about the internet. for many users even the way internet works in not understood. not even remotely.
2916 2011-07-23 23:34:57 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: so why wouldn't "it's cryptographically secured escrow" be a good enough explanation
2917 2011-07-23 23:35:06 <moa7> pipes and tubes
2918 2011-07-23 23:35:07 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: i mean, if they don't know what escrow is, sure i see your point
2919 2011-07-23 23:35:09 soap has joined
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2921 2011-07-23 23:35:09 soap has joined
2922 2011-07-23 23:35:12 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: but that's out of scope
2923 2011-07-23 23:35:29 <sipa> you need to give people an abstraction, easy enough that they can see things working, but hiding the details
2924 2011-07-23 23:35:46 <prof7bit> well, then implement it. but implement not 42 different versions of it so that nobody understands which one exactly to use and how to use it.
2925 2011-07-23 23:35:50 <[Tycho]> sacarlson, so what's the workflow for redeeming ?
2926 2011-07-23 23:35:53 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya designing a *gui* for the escrow txns is much harder than explaining it tbqh
2927 2011-07-23 23:36:11 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: exactly
2928 2011-07-23 23:36:13 <b4epoche_> gui must have pictures
2929 2011-07-23 23:36:34 <sipa> you don't need to know the TCP protocol to put a picture on facebook
2930 2011-07-23 23:36:42 <b4epoche_> a little character labeled "you", another labeled "them", etc.
2931 2011-07-23 23:37:04 <sacarlson> [Tycho]: the example sesion has it, but in the future you will play with pokerth and not see how it works just put in your chips and get paid without wory of people cheating you by pulling out there funds from the pot
2932 2011-07-23 23:37:29 <[Tycho]> sacarlson, I rather interested in the inner workings.
2933 2011-07-23 23:37:32 molecular has joined
2934 2011-07-23 23:37:32 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: yesterday someone showed me the netatalk source on github and I thought I know this name! ;)
2935 2011-07-23 23:37:50 <sacarlson> [Tycho]: well it's all in the code and in help
2936 2011-07-23 23:38:03 <prof7bit> if i extrapolate the bitcoin dev's UI design skills and the way they think to know how the endusers might think then this will not be easy.
2937 2011-07-23 23:38:04 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: do you plan to do something with this code like a fork?
2938 2011-07-23 23:38:54 <prof7bit> (I'm not sure how to formulate this correctly without being too offensive)
2939 2011-07-23 23:38:59 <prof7bit> sorry
2940 2011-07-23 23:39:16 <sipa> prof7bit: well, imho bitcoin isn't ready for most end users
2941 2011-07-23 23:39:22 <prof7bit> but development of a good UI is a science in itself
2942 2011-07-23 23:39:23 <b4epoche_> I think people understand prof7bit
2943 2011-07-23 23:39:30 <b4epoche_> designing a good UI is /hard/
2944 2011-07-23 23:39:35 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: we create webskin to simplify setup of escrow transactions in a gui type maner
2945 2011-07-23 23:39:41 genjix has left ()
2946 2011-07-23 23:39:57 <moa7> people understand money better than understand what programming does
2947 2011-07-23 23:40:24 <prof7bit> and it is extremely diffcult to understand what the end user will think or expect when he tries to use the application.
2948 2011-07-23 23:40:56 <sipa> i think bitcoin-qt will be a massive step in the right direction already
2949 2011-07-23 23:40:56 <sacarlson> jrmithdobbs: for added support for escrow multisign we have this https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin-webskin
2950 2011-07-23 23:40:57 <b4epoche_> prof7bit: indeed…  years of writing exam questions has helped me a lot in that area
2951 2011-07-23 23:41:13 phatsphere has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2952 2011-07-23 23:41:19 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: no, i posted that before the maintainer released it publically
2953 2011-07-23 23:41:48 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: which was verifiable on the netatalk-dev mailling list archives until someone deleted my post with the link to it
2954 2011-07-23 23:41:49 <prof7bit> as a programmer you can easily totally lose the connection to the user. things that seem totally obvious to you might seem completely wrong or different in the eyes of the user.
2955 2011-07-23 23:42:02 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: i made a demand for code under gpl once someone distributed it
2956 2011-07-23 23:42:20 <b4epoche_> prof7bit:  indeed…  and 12 years of teaching has helped me with that ;-)
2957 2011-07-23 23:42:35 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/iwyvb/netafpcom_gpl_compliance_and_censorship/
2958 2011-07-23 23:43:09 <b4epoche_> well, maybe not helped me that much, but made me realize how hard it is
2959 2011-07-23 23:43:13 <AndyBr> sup bitoin =)
2960 2011-07-23 23:43:50 Transformer has joined
2961 2011-07-23 23:44:30 Transformer has quit (Excess Flood)
2962 2011-07-23 23:44:36 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: i have no interest in maintaining it, but, *that* exact set of source builds and *works* for 10.7's timemachine, whereas the newest commit he pushed doesn't quite it has some problems (was kind of a dick thing to do on his part, push the newest code and not a tarball of the newest working version in addition to it)
2963 2011-07-23 23:46:03 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: yeah, I hope someone picks it up
2964 2011-07-23 23:46:26 <prof7bit> i have spent a lot of time in my life working on a totally proprietary home-brewn not very trivial application that autometed some business processes (call it online shop but it was not a shop, it was something completely different) and I have seen how ordinary humans think and what they expect and I sometimes simply could not believe it. i also learned a lot during this time.)
2965 2011-07-23 23:46:42 <denisx> and moves away from SF (the open source cemetery)
2966 2011-07-23 23:47:18 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: he doesn't think anyone will, but if he abandons it someone will
2967 2011-07-23 23:47:28 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: the email threads linked in that link are an interesting read ;p
2968 2011-07-23 23:48:12 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: he (well his coworker with strong implications that the entire organization) maintains that since netatalk was unmaintained for 5 years it wouldn't be picked up if they dropped it
2969 2011-07-23 23:48:26 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: yeah, I will do read it, I'm making a german mac podcasts and can use some info to spread some news ;)
2970 2011-07-23 23:48:43 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2971 2011-07-23 23:48:46 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: ignoring the fact that the 5 years it went unmaintained were the 5 years it *was* basically a dead protocol and then apple suddenly picked it back up for timemachine, lol
2972 2011-07-23 23:48:46 <devrandom> ;;later tell sipa outgoing works on XP SP2 after issuing the two "net sh" commands mentioned in the MS kb article
2973 2011-07-23 23:48:47 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2974 2011-07-23 23:49:28 <denisx> for me it was never dead
2975 2011-07-23 23:50:10 <denisx> works really nice at my homerouter since 10 years or so
2976 2011-07-23 23:50:11 <jrmithdobbs> it should be
2977 2011-07-23 23:50:16 <jrmithdobbs> it's an awful protocol
2978 2011-07-23 23:50:36 <jrmithdobbs> all the updates apple have made have basically made afp more and more nfs-like begging the question, why not just use nfs?
2979 2011-07-23 23:51:05 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2980 2011-07-23 23:51:23 <jrmithdobbs> if you want auth on nfs, use kerberos, they *already* running a local kdc on every mac (which is awesome btw)
2981 2011-07-23 23:51:35 <Diablo-D3> lol
2982 2011-07-23 23:51:37 <Diablo-D3> kerberos
2983 2011-07-23 23:51:40 <Diablo-D3> a failure of a security standard
2984 2011-07-23 23:51:54 <jrmithdobbs> failure only in that it's not been widely adopted enough
2985 2011-07-23 23:53:08 <jrmithdobbs> <3 kerberos
2986 2011-07-23 23:53:17 TheZimm has joined
2987 2011-07-23 23:53:21 davex__ has joined
2988 2011-07-23 23:53:26 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: dude
2989 2011-07-23 23:53:33 <b4epoche_> prof7bit:  I used osCommerce to develop a POS system for my wife's shoe store…  that was my first real experience with watching people use a UI
2990 2011-07-23 23:53:35 <Diablo-D3> when an average person cant understand how kerb works
2991 2011-07-23 23:53:35 <jrmithdobbs> what?
2992 2011-07-23 23:53:37 <Diablo-D3> then its a failure
2993 2011-07-23 23:53:40 <b4epoche_> eye-opening
2994 2011-07-23 23:53:47 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: explain how cbc works to me
2995 2011-07-23 23:53:52 <jrmithdobbs> without wiki
2996 2011-07-23 23:53:56 <devrandom> ;;later tell sipa the latest seems to be running fine, but I can't netcat into it from an ipv6 enabled host
2997 2011-07-23 23:53:56 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2998 2011-07-23 23:54:15 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: explain des, 3des, sha, bcrypt to me
2999 2011-07-23 23:54:26 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: in terms a "normal" user would understand.
3000 2011-07-23 23:54:31 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: dude, do I look like wikipedia to you? look it up yourself.
3001 2011-07-23 23:54:49 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: then obviously all those things are failures
3002 2011-07-23 23:54:50 <Diablo-D3> and yes, it IS easy to describe how a crypt hash works
3003 2011-07-23 23:54:52 <jrmithdobbs> by your logic
3004 2011-07-23 23:54:59 <Diablo-D3> speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out.
3005 2011-07-23 23:55:08 <Diablo-D3> no wait, thats a portal
3006 2011-07-23 23:55:26 <jrmithdobbs> then so is kerberos, "you ask for a token with your password, other machines use your token to verify who you say you are and let you login"
3007 2011-07-23 23:55:40 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: kerb is difficult for admins to setup
3008 2011-07-23 23:55:44 <Diablo-D3> which is really problematic
3009 2011-07-23 23:55:45 <jrmithdobbs> no it's not
3010 2011-07-23 23:55:52 <jrmithdobbs> incompetent ones maybe
3011 2011-07-23 23:55:58 <Diablo-D3> MOST ADMINS _ARE_ INCOMPETENT
3012 2011-07-23 23:56:01 <Diablo-D3> HELLO, MCFLY
3013 2011-07-23 23:56:06 <jrmithdobbs> i regenned an entire realm the other day including replication in <5 minutes
3014 2011-07-23 23:56:46 <jrmithdobbs> working backs is hard for incompetent admins to setup too
3015 2011-07-23 23:56:50 <jrmithdobbs> therefore backups are a failure
3016 2011-07-23 23:56:53 <jrmithdobbs> ...
3017 2011-07-23 23:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> s/backs/backups/
3018 2011-07-23 23:57:30 <jrmithdobbs> got any more logical fallacies you'd like to throw out?