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3 2011-07-25 00:03:23 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: linux solutions should work (or nearly work) on freebsd cuz they use /dev/random based on linux one I thought
4 2011-07-25 00:04:05 <lfm> dunno for sure about os/x
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7 2011-07-25 00:05:50 <jrmithdobbs> i'll find out once the xcode update finishes installing if the same ioctl()s work
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21 2011-07-25 00:10:31 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: I avoid BSD as best I can ;-)
22 2011-07-25 00:11:10 <jrmithdobbs> looks like someone's ported ekeyd to openbsd/mirbsd i'm looking a his notes now ;p
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25 2011-07-25 00:13:23 <jrmithdobbs> looks like at least openbsd/mirbsd don't have RNDADDENTROPY they use RNDADDTOENTCNT and use ever so slightly different structures because They Can(tm)
26 2011-07-25 00:13:26 <jrmithdobbs> annoying
27 2011-07-25 00:13:39 <jrmithdobbs> (different from linux, no idea about os x yet, xcode update is taking forever)
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43 2011-07-25 00:54:47 <jrmithdobbs> oh fuckin awesome
44 2011-07-25 00:55:56 <jrmithdobbs> os x uses yarrow and takes seeding with a straight up write to the tty dev
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67 2011-07-25 02:21:38 <hippich> howdy, if i want to start completely separate bitcoin-based network, what should I update in original client? I found: the whole genesis block, data dir, address version, message header version, port.
68 2011-07-25 02:21:48 ewal-otg has joined
69 2011-07-25 02:21:54 <hippich> remove few inplace checks for valid block chain.
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71 2011-07-25 02:26:59 <doublec> hippich: this might help https://github.com/sacarlson/MultiCoin/blob/master/create_new_genisis_block.txt
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74 2011-07-25 02:28:04 <hippich> doublec, thanx!
75 2011-07-25 02:28:11 <doublec> np
76 2011-07-25 02:28:13 <sacarlson> hippich: you need to run MultiCoin to create new chains
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79 2011-07-25 02:29:10 <sacarlson> hippich: also checkout #multicoin on freenode
80 2011-07-25 02:31:34 <hippich> sacarlson, thanx. i wanted to do experiment (it will involve too much of things to change in original code), but wanted to make sure it will not give any problem to existing network.
81 2011-07-25 02:32:30 <sacarlson> hippich: MultiCoin works on all networks with just config changes but your free to modify it to make more changes if needed
82 2011-07-25 02:33:06 <hippich> yeah. i want to change a way reward is applied, coins represented, etc %)
83 2011-07-25 02:33:10 <sacarlson> hippich: it made for expermentation and advancement
84 2011-07-25 02:34:03 <sacarlson> hippich: I"m not sure what you want but the standard config has verible inflation settings
85 2011-07-25 02:34:32 <hippich> yeah, the whole thing helps a lot!
86 2011-07-25 02:34:42 <hippich> thanx for it!
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92 2011-07-25 03:06:55 <coderrr> see this yet? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2800790
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94 2011-07-25 03:09:00 <jrmithdobbs> someone put a huge BITCOIN IS NOT ANONYMOUS flashing banner on bitcoin.org already
95 2011-07-25 03:09:31 <senseles> people still wouldnt see it
96 2011-07-25 03:09:55 <jrmithdobbs> so this guy wasted a lot of time proving something that was never claimed
97 2011-07-25 03:09:57 <jrmithdobbs> good job i guess
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99 2011-07-25 03:11:39 <coderrr> but theres lots of pretty pictures so it must be important
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103 2011-07-25 03:12:04 <Akiron> so in Bitcoin, the blockchain is stored as a linked list of CBlockIndex objects, correct?
104 2011-07-25 03:12:44 <jrmithdobbs> now
105 2011-07-25 03:12:54 <jrmithdobbs> if he published the code he used to generate those pretty pictures
106 2011-07-25 03:12:59 <jrmithdobbs> *that* would be worth talking about ;p
107 2011-07-25 03:13:10 <jrmithdobbs> but i'm sure it's just shit that calls blockexplorer.com ;p
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115 2011-07-25 03:25:32 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no, I think proving Bitcoin isn't anonymous is a good thing
116 2011-07-25 03:25:39 <luke-jr> even when it was never claimed
117 2011-07-25 03:25:40 <jrmithdobbs> but we already knew it wasn't
118 2011-07-25 03:25:55 <jrmithdobbs> he didn't prove anything non-obvious to anyone familiar
119 2011-07-25 03:26:01 <jrmithdobbs> with the actual design/impl
120 2011-07-25 03:26:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik went out of his way to make it pretty public that it wasn't anonymous, and STILL people didn't believe him
121 2011-07-25 03:26:28 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: and you think those people are the kinds that read academic-style papers?
122 2011-07-25 03:26:31 <jrmithdobbs> heh
123 2011-07-25 03:26:48 <luke-jr> :p
124 2011-07-25 03:27:30 <coderrr> yea wikileaks said it was anonymous and ppl trust wikileaks way more than any of u crazy btc devs :P
125 2011-07-25 03:27:41 <luke-jr> wtf is mtgox doing
126 2011-07-25 03:28:55 <iddo> someone is buying...
127 2011-07-25 03:29:06 <moa7> btc has turned into a huge honey-pot trap ...
128 2011-07-25 03:31:30 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ?
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130 2011-07-25 03:31:48 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: MtGox price is skyrocketting
131 2011-07-25 03:31:49 <pierce> nothing is anonymous, the whole debate is just annoying
132 2011-07-25 03:32:19 <jrmithdobbs> tor could be traced if anyone put enough effort into it
133 2011-07-25 03:32:25 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
134 2011-07-25 03:32:42 <luke-jr> yep
135 2011-07-25 03:33:02 <jrmithdobbs> and tor is MUCH more "anonymous" than btc ever could be
136 2011-07-25 03:33:27 <pierce> ya, but tor is more anonymous than letting your ISP see all your traffic, and bitcoin is more anonymous than paying for things with a credit card etc
137 2011-07-25 03:33:47 <jrmithdobbs> actually
138 2011-07-25 03:33:56 <jrmithdobbs> i'd say bitcoin is less anonymous than prepaid cards
139 2011-07-25 03:34:40 <pierce> depends on how you buy them
140 2011-07-25 03:34:48 <jrmithdobbs> right
141 2011-07-25 03:34:51 <pierce> same with any monetary exchange
142 2011-07-25 03:35:32 again is now known as tower
143 2011-07-25 03:35:40 <pierce> IMO bitcoins can be used in safer and easier to control ways than anything that touches USD
144 2011-07-25 03:36:10 <jrmithdobbs> depends on context but in general that's probably true
145 2011-07-25 03:36:17 <jrmithdobbs> just because there's no governing body involved
146 2011-07-25 03:37:24 <pierce> to some people, anonymous means it doesn't require state ID and a signature. The whole debate really boils down to definitions, not technical correctness.
147 2011-07-25 03:39:56 <moa7> there is a legal proof standard also ....
148 2011-07-25 03:40:45 <pierce> has anyone thought of switching from sha256 to something more memory intensive like bcrypt to make specialized mining hardware more expensive and more on par with current desktop systems?
149 2011-07-25 03:41:12 <moa7> plausible deniability is sufficient for lots of purposes
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151 2011-07-25 03:42:39 <coderrr> pierce, i think bcrypt is just computationally expensive, not memory intensive
152 2011-07-25 03:42:47 <coderrr> scrypt is both
153 2011-07-25 03:43:09 <pierce> coderrr: okay then, your idea :-)
154 2011-07-25 03:44:02 <pierce> just getting annoyed about huge mining monopolies buying the silence of anyone who makes any advancements
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156 2011-07-25 03:44:36 <AlonzoTG> ugh.
157 2011-07-25 03:44:43 * AlonzoTG found an error in the protocol documentation.
158 2011-07-25 03:45:02 <AlonzoTG> the data structure for "wallet_entry" is not described in the protocol docs yet it is part of the protocol.
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160 2011-07-25 03:46:49 <whomp> are bitcoin donations to non-profits tax deductible?
161 2011-07-25 03:47:21 <luke-jr> I don't see why not
162 2011-07-25 03:47:25 <pierce> whomp: you can try
163 2011-07-25 03:47:25 <phantomcircuit> i cant see why not
164 2011-07-25 03:47:27 <luke-jr> but IANAL
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167 2011-07-25 03:49:02 <pierce> whomp: tax law isn't written in C, english has the magical feature of being very context sensitive, so whoever has the most expensive lawyer can deduce whatever they want from the law, but no, that particular case has never been tested to my knowledge.
168 2011-07-25 03:49:34 <phantomcircuit> lol
169 2011-07-25 03:49:43 <phantomcircuit> implying that c is clear and absolute
170 2011-07-25 03:50:05 <pierce> meh, just trying to avoid getting kickbanned if I had said java :-)
171 2011-07-25 03:50:05 <[Tycho]> Ã is perfect
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195 2011-07-25 05:12:09 <cuddlefish> aha
196 2011-07-25 05:12:18 <cuddlefish> to people getting "DATABASE ERROR: Run recovery"
197 2011-07-25 05:12:22 <cuddlefish> I found the 'recovery'!
198 2011-07-25 05:12:23 <cuddlefish> http://pybsddb.sourceforge.net/utility/db_recover.html
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226 2011-07-25 07:13:14 <gjs278> when poclbm crashes a core of my gpu, is there anyway to keep the system up besides rebooting
227 2011-07-25 07:13:27 <gjs278> I can tell one of the 5970 cores stopped hashing
228 2011-07-25 07:13:42 <gjs278> and if I send poclbm I'll probably have a full crash occur
229 2011-07-25 07:13:45 <gjs278> end*
230 2011-07-25 07:17:10 <gjs278> I need a tool that can like down the core gracefully so I don't get screen freezes every 15 seconds due to 1/3 cores being offline
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234 2011-07-25 07:25:00 <Joric> how may i update blockchain on a gae application if it doesnt support sockets? is there any http compatible source to download blocks using urlfetch?
235 2011-07-25 07:25:09 <cuddlefish> Can't locate object method "USE" via package "THIS" (perhaps you forgot to load "THIS"?) at - line 1.
236 2011-07-25 07:25:12 <cuddlefish> gaha
237 2011-07-25 07:25:15 <cuddlefish> Joric: Nope.
238 2011-07-25 07:25:33 <cuddlefish> Joric: can you look stuff up in blockexplorer?
239 2011-07-25 07:25:42 <Joric> hell, i even could upload them from my own desktop i just need some http wrapper for that
240 2011-07-25 07:26:51 <Joric> maybe blockexplorer, really
241 2011-07-25 07:27:01 <Joric> for new blocks
242 2011-07-25 07:27:25 <Joric> poor blockexplorer
243 2011-07-25 07:27:48 <Joric> http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000004b2db9d01a39b84752cb05e2692897d66f6632acb15e41fbaa5
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245 2011-07-25 07:28:16 <Joric> is it the whole block or it missing something
246 2011-07-25 07:29:48 <Joric> i've just seen some analythics want to try something similar
247 2011-07-25 07:29:49 <Joric> http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
248 2011-07-25 07:32:11 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
249 2011-07-25 07:33:05 <Joric> not sure how realtime it could be, depends of the proper indexing
250 2011-07-25 07:33:36 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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252 2011-07-25 07:34:26 <cuddlefish> Joric: it's the binary data
253 2011-07-25 07:35:15 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
254 2011-07-25 07:44:16 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
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257 2011-07-25 07:46:07 <Soak> nobody for help me here? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=31368 (How to estimate next difficulty?)
258 2011-07-25 07:47:01 <cuddlefish> Soak: ;;bc,nextdiff
259 2011-07-25 07:47:07 <cuddlefish> ;;bc,nextdiff
260 2011-07-25 07:47:08 <gribble> Error: "bc,nextdiff" is not a valid command.
261 2011-07-25 07:47:13 <cuddlefish> ;;bc,statc
262 2011-07-25 07:47:14 <gribble> Error: "bc,statc" is not a valid command.
263 2011-07-25 07:47:14 <cuddlefish> ;;bc,stats
264 2011-07-25 07:47:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 137924 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 1179 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 1 minute, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1787546.53911810
265 2011-07-25 07:47:25 <cuddlefish> there we go
266 2011-07-25 07:49:06 <Soak> yes but I want for my website
267 2011-07-25 07:49:18 <Soak> so I can't do that by IRC :x
268 2011-07-25 07:52:01 <Joric> Soak, http://blockexplorer.com/q
269 2011-07-25 07:52:15 <Joric> particulary, http://blockexplorer.com/q/estimate
270 2011-07-25 07:52:33 <Joric> bot uses this, i believe
271 2011-07-25 07:52:51 <Soak> thank you :D
272 2011-07-25 07:53:16 <Joric> poor, poor blockexplorer
273 2011-07-25 07:54:29 <Joric> though there's at least one official mirror (powered by mtgox live) http://109.123.116.245
274 2011-07-25 07:54:45 <Joric> doesn't work :]
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277 2011-07-25 07:57:52 <Joric> doesn't look like it uses dns load balancing either
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281 2011-07-25 08:01:52 <Joric> trying to host my own blockexplorer :) node.js compiles forever
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286 2011-07-25 08:08:02 <kinlo> is blockexplorer opensource?
287 2011-07-25 08:08:27 <kinlo> Soak: *when* difficutly changes, is easy, but for the rest I'd reccomend you just read the source code
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290 2011-07-25 08:09:51 <Joric> kinlo, nope, i'm trying to use https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-explorer
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293 2011-07-25 08:10:46 <kinlo> mmmz
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295 2011-07-25 08:15:49 <doublec> Joric: there's also https://github.com/jtobey/bitcoin-abe
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312 2011-07-25 09:10:45 <prof7bit> yesterday I have found this thread: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=29416.0 this is the first time I have seen someone trying to really document some of the complicated parts. If I had some bitcoins I would donate to this guy for his efforts.
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322 2011-07-25 09:39:18 <Joric> whoa http://bitcoinjs.org/
323 2011-07-25 09:42:44 <Joric> "fork me on github" :) didn't know forking become so popular
324 2011-07-25 09:43:10 <ersi> should rename github to forkhub
325 2011-07-25 09:43:35 <random_cat> for me, you ugly, crumbling bits
326 2011-07-25 09:43:46 <random_cat> s/for/fork/
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347 2011-07-25 10:20:38 <coderrr> gmaxwell, you still interested in CLI support for 'send from address' ?
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352 2011-07-25 10:34:17 <gmaxwell> coderrr: Yes
353 2011-07-25 10:38:29 <coderrr> gmaxwell, I'm thinking this: "sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress>[:<sendfromaddress1>[;<sendfromaddress2>[;...]]] <amount> [comment] [comment-to]", does that sound alright?
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355 2011-07-25 10:40:28 <gmaxwell> That sounds reasonable.
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357 2011-07-25 10:41:00 <Joric> why not commas
358 2011-07-25 10:41:45 <coderrr> Joric, I already use semicolons to separate addresses in the gui
359 2011-07-25 10:41:53 <coderrr> so otehr than that, no reason
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363 2011-07-25 10:47:01 <coderrr> hrm yea, semicolons on cmdline is kinda bad though, if anyone actually used this im sure someone will screw up and not escape one of them
364 2011-07-25 10:47:28 <TD> you know
365 2011-07-25 10:47:50 <TD> i can't think of any reasons to have complex logic in scriptSig
366 2011-07-25 10:47:58 <Eliel> yes, semicolon is bad idea for command line :)
367 2011-07-25 10:48:03 <TD> it could have just been called "initialStack"
368 2011-07-25 10:49:00 <Joric> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme
369 2011-07-25 10:49:10 <Joric> Each segment can contain parameters separated from it using a semicolon (";")
370 2011-07-25 10:50:01 <Joric> hehe not exactly that
371 2011-07-25 10:50:40 <Joric> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/logs/2011/01/28/7
372 2011-07-25 10:50:52 <Joric> "jgarzik: avoid comma-separated list" :]
373 2011-07-25 10:51:57 <coderrr> oh well doesnt matter this will never be in the official client anyway
374 2011-07-25 10:53:47 <cjdelisle> Just as a straw pole, would people be in to the idea of a telnet controlled daemon where you could use any gui you wanted?
375 2011-07-25 10:54:37 <da2ce7> coderrr, did you check out my proposal: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/NewSendCoins
376 2011-07-25 10:55:34 <coderrr> da2ce7, u get any feedback on it ?
377 2011-07-25 10:55:49 <da2ce7> not really... but I have since come up with a better solution...
378 2011-07-25 10:55:54 <da2ce7> it is really quite elegant.
379 2011-07-25 10:56:06 <Joric> i'd prefer an embedded http server :]
380 2011-07-25 10:56:48 <Joric> damn bitcoin-p2p won't install
381 2011-07-25 10:56:49 <coderrr> does boost have a construct for finally blocks ?
382 2011-07-25 10:57:02 <Joric> says No such file or directory: '/atlas/www/node-bitcoin-p2p/build-cc'
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395 2011-07-25 11:18:04 <TD> http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
396 2011-07-25 11:18:07 <TD> very cool analysis
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399 2011-07-25 11:20:30 <Joric> TD, did you try to write a bitcoin client on python?
400 2011-07-25 11:20:35 <TD> no, why?
401 2011-07-25 11:20:55 <da2ce7> codemojo, Joric, http://code.bulix.org/k1i0ul-80318
402 2011-07-25 11:21:04 <da2ce7> what do you think... good concept?
403 2011-07-25 11:21:04 <Joric> there's another google guy, https://github.com/samrushing/caesure
404 2011-07-25 11:21:51 <Joric> transaction std's? :)
405 2011-07-25 11:22:26 <Joric> da2ce7, what's that?
406 2011-07-25 11:22:42 <TD> what makes you think sam rushing is a googler?
407 2011-07-25 11:22:52 <da2ce7> it is a for bitcoind, it is a proposed API for making transactions.
408 2011-07-25 11:23:01 Choko has joined
409 2011-07-25 11:23:03 <da2ce7> we can add to it later, so we can add inputs.
410 2011-07-25 11:23:10 <Joric> TD, http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/
411 2011-07-25 11:23:33 <Joric> though google 2000, then cisco
412 2011-07-25 11:23:52 <TD> he worked there wants 11 years ago :)
413 2011-07-25 11:23:54 <TD> once
414 2011-07-25 11:24:12 <TD> i don't think python is a good language for a bitcoin implementation, personally
415 2011-07-25 11:24:17 <TD> but hey, if you're just doing it for fun, whatever
416 2011-07-25 11:27:45 <bonsaikitten> TD: python can be quite nice, if you know how to use it ... most of the criticism comes from people that want to use it like C++ and then notice that it doesn't work well
417 2011-07-25 11:28:14 huk has joined
418 2011-07-25 11:31:20 <Joric> on the other hand, java can't be nice at all
419 2011-07-25 11:31:35 <phedny> what's wrong with Java?
420 2011-07-25 11:32:02 AndyBr has joined
421 2011-07-25 11:32:13 <phantomcircuit> phedny, oracle will sue you
422 2011-07-25 11:32:23 <phedny> good point
423 2011-07-25 11:33:32 <TD> bonsaikitten: oh it's a nice language. the problems are mostly efficiency and correctness
424 2011-07-25 11:33:39 <Zagitta> TD: that analasys is kinda BS
425 2011-07-25 11:34:24 <phantomcircuit> lol @ efficiency
426 2011-07-25 11:34:45 <bonsaikitten> TD: correctness? how is that more a problem than in other languages?
427 2011-07-25 11:35:17 <bonsaikitten> and I haven't noticed any efficiency problems yet ... just write lazy code that does the minimal amount of work needed
428 2011-07-25 11:35:36 <da2ce7> updated version of make new tx, what do you think? http://code.bulix.org/u01vhw-80319
429 2011-07-25 11:36:40 <da2ce7> ah, there is a small error in it.
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432 2011-07-25 11:37:09 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, python code doing identical stuff is usually about 4x slower than java which is about 2x slower than c
433 2011-07-25 11:37:27 <phantomcircuit> however it is *much* easier to use the proper ds in python
434 2011-07-25 11:37:28 <phantomcircuit> so
435 2011-07-25 11:37:30 <phantomcircuit> whatevah
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437 2011-07-25 11:38:29 <Joric> da2ce7, why camelcase? also "Transction"
438 2011-07-25 11:38:38 <bonsaikitten> phantomcircuit: hmm. from exposure to average java code I must say that *good* java can be reasonably fast, but on average it's about as fast as a glacier
439 2011-07-25 11:38:38 <phedny> Java speed depends a lot on programming style .. as with other languages of course .. but it performance is critical, an ugly programming style can be as efficient as C
440 2011-07-25 11:39:00 <phedny> espacially object creation and desctruction is expensive
441 2011-07-25 11:39:06 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, yes which is why i said code that does identical things
442 2011-07-25 11:39:08 <bonsaikitten> and sadly most people who attempt to write C manage to make it slower than proper py because they do too much work
443 2011-07-25 11:39:12 <phantomcircuit> same algorithm structure
444 2011-07-25 11:39:19 <bonsaikitten> phantomcircuit: that's not going to work out
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446 2011-07-25 11:39:45 <bonsaikitten> x = [ 2**y for y in range(1024)] <-- try doing that in Java
447 2011-07-25 11:39:52 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, write a for loop using xrange and print "hello world" it will be a shitton slower
448 2011-07-25 11:39:58 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
449 2011-07-25 11:40:05 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, you're just echoing what i said
450 2011-07-25 11:40:19 <bonsaikitten> well, here's the funny thing. you can't easily do it in Java
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452 2011-07-25 11:40:26 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, you're just echoing what i said
453 2011-07-25 11:40:36 <bonsaikitten> phantomcircuit: you seem to be stuck in a temporal loop
454 2011-07-25 11:40:37 <phantomcircuit> I HEAR AN ECHOO ECHOechoechech
455 2011-07-25 11:40:48 <bonsaikitten> next time you come around I'll smack you in the face to kick you out of the loop
456 2011-07-25 11:41:25 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, wow really threatening me? nice
457 2011-07-25 11:41:27 <bonsaikitten> same algorithm can still have different runtime complexity, so while it *looks* the same the runtime ends up O(n^2) vs. O(n^6) or something funny like that
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459 2011-07-25 11:41:55 <bonsaikitten> and then people say foo is slow, because ... in foo this *is* slow if you do it this way, instead of the smart way
460 2011-07-25 11:42:01 <phantomcircuit> yeah im obviously talking about algorithms with identical runtime complexity taking longer in python than java or c
461 2011-07-25 11:42:05 <bonsaikitten> phantomcircuit: no, just trying to stop looping
462 2011-07-25 11:42:12 <phantomcircuit> the interpretter for python is fucktarded slow
463 2011-07-25 11:42:24 <bonsaikitten> unladen-swallow ? :)
464 2011-07-25 11:42:45 <phantomcircuit> lol
465 2011-07-25 11:42:52 <Joric> i'm using pure python ecdsa currently, works fine
466 2011-07-25 11:42:55 <bonsaikitten> at least py is portable ... java claims to be, but I had enough fun trying to make things work
467 2011-07-25 11:42:55 <phantomcircuit> looked abandoned last i checked
468 2011-07-25 11:42:59 <bonsaikitten> yep
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470 2011-07-25 11:43:13 <bonsaikitten> but that shows that it's mostly CPython being very simple-minded
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473 2011-07-25 11:43:32 <phantomcircuit> and they were using horribly gcc hacks to make some things faster
474 2011-07-25 11:43:39 <bonsaikitten> PyPy might be fun
475 2011-07-25 11:43:51 <phantomcircuit> pypy is nice and is actually faster in most instances
476 2011-07-25 11:43:57 <bonsaikitten> gcc? I thought it was using the llvm infrastructure?
477 2011-07-25 11:44:38 <phantomcircuit> yes it does use the llvm architecture
478 2011-07-25 11:44:39 Guest39969 is now known as jimon
479 2011-07-25 11:44:45 <phantomcircuit> *and* a metric ton of hackery
480 2011-07-25 11:45:02 <phantomcircuit> to make opcode lookup O(1) they used references to labels
481 2011-07-25 11:45:12 <phantomcircuit> which only just barely makes sense
482 2011-07-25 11:45:39 * Eliel prefers Haskell these days.
483 2011-07-25 11:46:01 <bonsaikitten> Eliel: slight barrier of entry there, but if you can make it work that's ok
484 2011-07-25 11:46:14 <Eliel> yes, the barrier of entry was... huge
485 2011-07-25 11:46:23 <Eliel> but IMO, totally worth it
486 2011-07-25 11:46:27 <bonsaikitten> phantomcircuit: I guess you find struct padding offensive too, even if it can make ~30% performance difference
487 2011-07-25 11:46:36 <molecular> does anyone use his mtgox yubikey for ssh auth?
488 2011-07-25 11:46:44 <molecular> oh, wrong channel, sry
489 2011-07-25 11:47:25 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, opcode lookup even in worst case was searching tree which fit entirely in a single cache line
490 2011-07-25 11:47:49 <phantomcircuit> they could have used an O(n^2) algorithm and it would have made almost no difference
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492 2011-07-25 11:48:06 <da2ce7> Joric, updated 3rd time: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
493 2011-07-25 11:48:07 <bonsaikitten> hmm. must have had a good reason for that hackery then
494 2011-07-25 11:48:36 <phantomcircuit> yes i spoke with the guy who did it
495 2011-07-25 11:48:45 <phantomcircuit> he said basically "it cant make it slower!"
496 2011-07-25 11:49:01 <bonsaikitten> eew.
497 2011-07-25 11:49:06 <phantomcircuit> lol
498 2011-07-25 11:49:15 <phantomcircuit> profiling? FUCK THAT
499 2011-07-25 11:49:42 <ersi> FUCK IT
500 2011-07-25 11:49:45 <ersi> We'll do it LIVE!
501 2011-07-25 11:50:09 <phantomcircuit> not to mention switch case on x86 platforms is already O(1) for sequential enums
502 2011-07-25 11:51:37 <TD> ah, the joy of language flamewars
503 2011-07-25 11:52:24 <TuxBlackEdo> papa bear will never get old
504 2011-07-25 11:53:30 <phantomcircuit> bonsaikitten, CPython is a shitty implementation, but it's the only universal implementation
505 2011-07-25 11:53:31 <TuxBlackEdo> FUCKING THING SUCKS
506 2011-07-25 11:54:00 <Zeiris> What's better than CPython?
507 2011-07-25 11:54:17 <phantomcircuit> Zeiris, pypy stackless python
508 2011-07-25 11:54:22 <phantomcircuit> shit IPython
509 2011-07-25 11:54:52 <phantomcircuit> wait fuck what's it called
510 2011-07-25 11:55:14 <phantomcircuit> jython is faster
511 2011-07-25 11:55:24 <phantomcircuit> but is hilariously unstable in comparison
512 2011-07-25 11:56:38 minus has left ("Leaving")
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514 2011-07-25 11:59:11 <TuxBlackEdo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Bdlmi60Cw
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516 2011-07-25 12:00:17 <diki> hey guys, do you know that Windows 7 loads faster than bitcoin?
517 2011-07-25 12:00:19 <diki> just a fact
518 2011-07-25 12:01:02 <GMP> im positively surprised with the amount of effort spent on making python fast, Psyco for example, its just crazy!
519 2011-07-25 12:01:25 <diki> oh wait, my 600mhz phone boots up faster
520 2011-07-25 12:01:29 <diki> bitcoin is a nice OS
521 2011-07-25 12:01:37 <cjdelisle> tehehe
522 2011-07-25 12:01:39 <diki> too much stuff to load in memory
523 2011-07-25 12:01:51 <diki> must be vert far ahead than win7
524 2011-07-25 12:01:54 <diki> *very
525 2011-07-25 12:02:15 <cjdelisle> Are you referring to block chain download?
526 2011-07-25 12:02:27 <cjdelisle> or just plain startup?
527 2011-07-25 12:02:27 <diki> i am referring to the slow startup
528 2011-07-25 12:02:31 <cjdelisle> ouch
529 2011-07-25 12:02:57 <TuxBlackEdo> you probably need to uninstall your fake anti virus and malware
530 2011-07-25 12:03:26 <cjdelisle> What I see in bitcoin is a combination of really brilliant code and really horrendus code.
531 2011-07-25 12:04:04 <cjdelisle> Unfortunately I am no help since I'm basicly sunk with all the nuances of C++/boost
532 2011-07-25 12:04:10 <da2ce7> cjdelisle, both by satoshi?
533 2011-07-25 12:04:32 erus` has joined
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535 2011-07-25 12:04:59 <cjdelisle> Assuming satoshi was not a team, I would have to suggest that he was opperating under extreme time pressure.
536 2011-07-25 12:05:37 <da2ce7> so not a bad programer, but jsut a super rushed programer.
537 2011-07-25 12:06:38 <cjdelisle> There are things in btc that leave me in awe. There are also things which I would never commit myself (but then that's a problem with me, I value correctness over ever actually getting something done)
538 2011-07-25 12:06:56 * da2ce7 dosn't know c++ well enough to judge code quality.
539 2011-07-25 12:07:51 <cjdelisle> I know C and I can guess at most of it. When you see a hardcoded ip address, that's not hard to know what that means...
540 2011-07-25 12:08:47 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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542 2011-07-25 12:10:14 <da2ce7> lol
543 2011-07-25 12:10:16 <da2ce7> ya
544 2011-07-25 12:12:48 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, looks to me like he focused on important stuff, and left the details for later generations
545 2011-07-25 12:14:43 <cjdelisle> Indeed. I am a little bit disheartened at the apparent lack of support some of the, now very wealthy, early adopters are putting in to improving the code.
546 2011-07-25 12:15:53 <cjdelisle> Perhaps I am all wet here but it feels to me like some of this stuff should be first class, well documented well tested code by now.
547 2011-07-25 12:17:21 pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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549 2011-07-25 12:20:13 <prof7bit> what is the purpose of OP_VERIFY? Isn't it enough that true or false is left on the stack after the script exited?
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557 2011-07-25 12:24:07 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, well, I for one, am not wealthy enough yet
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559 2011-07-25 12:24:16 <UukGoblin> I sold about 20k bitcoins while they were below $1
560 2011-07-25 12:24:21 <UukGoblin> way below
561 2011-07-25 12:24:50 <UukGoblin> but! if the bitcoin gets up to $100 I promise to start contributing some good stuff
562 2011-07-25 12:25:08 <UukGoblin> (after I build a house that is)
563 2011-07-25 12:25:45 <cjdelisle> Yea. It's just kind of a problem, nobody like me really is incentivised to donate code because people will profit and people is not me.
564 2011-07-25 12:26:19 <cjdelisle> Not to be greedy about it but it's going to hold things back.
565 2011-07-25 12:26:22 <UukGoblin> well, not really... if the client keeps breaking and discouraging non-tecchy people, bitcoin value will drop and I'll lose money...
566 2011-07-25 12:26:55 <UukGoblin> but I just don't have enough time at the moment, having a full time job, distance learning university and a rig to maintain...
567 2011-07-25 12:27:02 <TuxBlackEdo> shit my skin is peeling now, i had some bad sunburn like 3 days ago
568 2011-07-25 12:27:16 <cjdelisle> /nod
569 2011-07-25 12:28:03 <cjdelisle> I don't think there's much risk of it losing value *unless* there is a competitor.
570 2011-07-25 12:28:28 <UukGoblin> namecoin is a competitor
571 2011-07-25 12:28:44 <TuxBlackEdo> not in 3 months
572 2011-07-25 12:28:57 <Eliel> cjdelisle: I've noticed the tendency for people who have bitcoins to donate to people who work on things they like.
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574 2011-07-25 12:29:09 <UukGoblin> TuxBlackEdo, what's in 3 months?
575 2011-07-25 12:29:39 <cjdelisle> Yea, not a very strong one IMO. It has nothing that BTC doesn't have except a dns tld that nobody can access.
576 2011-07-25 12:29:41 <TuxBlackEdo> UukHoblin: block 24,000 is the proposed block to switch to merged mining and base namecoin off of proof of work from the bitcoin blockchain
577 2011-07-25 12:30:07 <UukGoblin> TuxBlackEdo, well, it'll still be a competing currency after that
578 2011-07-25 12:30:16 <TuxBlackEdo> http://dot-bit.org/MergedMining
579 2011-07-25 12:30:25 <TuxBlackEdo> not a competing blockchain though
580 2011-07-25 12:30:40 <cjdelisle> yes a competing blockchain
581 2011-07-25 12:30:45 <TuxBlackEdo> its like saying mtgox usd will be a competing currency
582 2011-07-25 12:30:57 <UukGoblin> well the way I see it, namecoin can do all that bitcoin can, and more (i.e. the domain stuff)
583 2011-07-25 12:31:04 <UukGoblin> so why shouldn't we just start using namecoin instead
584 2011-07-25 12:31:05 <Zagitta> cjdelisle: indeed, they could probably found a whole dev team
585 2011-07-25 12:31:29 <cjdelisle> Because btc was here first?
586 2011-07-25 12:31:34 <TuxBlackEdo> UukGoblin: no idea
587 2011-07-25 12:31:35 <UukGoblin> heh
588 2011-07-25 12:32:28 <cjdelisle> IDK maybe namecoin will become valuable but first it will need some demand for it's .bit tld, I don't see them having that ATM.
589 2011-07-25 12:32:35 <TD> bitcoin has momentum
590 2011-07-25 12:32:37 <TD> namecoin doesn't
591 2011-07-25 12:32:40 <TuxBlackEdo> after block 24,000 the only way to mine for namecoin is to mine for bitcoin and namecoin together
592 2011-07-25 12:32:45 <cjdelisle> maybe a dns tld for tor or i2p? idk
593 2011-07-25 12:32:49 shLONG has joined
594 2011-07-25 12:32:51 <TD> TuxBlackEdo: no, it can still be mined independently
595 2011-07-25 12:33:04 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
596 2011-07-25 12:33:08 <cjdelisle> yea, btc has "momentum"
597 2011-07-25 12:33:19 <TuxBlackEdo> apparently the proof of work to get namecoins will be based off the bitcoin blockchain
598 2011-07-25 12:33:30 <TD> i understand how it works
599 2011-07-25 12:33:34 <TD> i "wrote the book" on the algorithm
600 2011-07-25 12:33:41 <TuxBlackEdo> never mind then lol
601 2011-07-25 12:33:45 <UukGoblin> well in 3 months, namecoin will get loads of momentum, because it'll suddenly halve the difficulty for all miners
602 2011-07-25 12:33:48 <TD> you can mine on namecoin post-change without mining on bitcoin too
603 2011-07-25 12:33:54 <TD> most people will probably choose both though. why not ?
604 2011-07-25 12:34:04 <TD> it's not so hard to keep up with the network
605 2011-07-25 12:34:12 <UukGoblin> yeah
606 2011-07-25 12:34:30 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah once merged mining starts it would be stupid to just mine for namecoin or just bitcoin
607 2011-07-25 12:34:34 <cjdelisle> meh momentum is more about getting on the news...
608 2011-07-25 12:34:46 <TuxBlackEdo> like silk road
609 2011-07-25 12:34:53 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, news follow momentum
610 2011-07-25 12:34:58 <TuxBlackEdo> isnt that what got the price up to $30usd/btc anyhow
611 2011-07-25 12:34:59 <UukGoblin> and create more at the same time
612 2011-07-25 12:35:02 <cjdelisle> yea, silkroad is a really interesting case study.
613 2011-07-25 12:35:37 <cjdelisle> I don't know who started it but I doubt they really made any money off it, perhaps they were an early adopter and they did, idk.
614 2011-07-25 12:35:41 <TuxBlackEdo> we need to start an anonymous tor site that sells escrots in the major cities, even if it is a fake one it might generate enough news interest for us to cash out :)
615 2011-07-25 12:35:58 <TuxBlackEdo> just kidding... or am i?
616 2011-07-25 12:36:41 <bonsaikitten> TuxBlackEdo: limited market
617 2011-07-25 12:36:45 <UukGoblin> TuxBlackEdo, and then start a gay one just for political correctness and to get even more news
618 2011-07-25 12:37:12 <cjdelisle> AFAICT the btc community mostly gave silkroad nothing but scorn for "giving btc a bad name" but on the other hand if it wern't for that "bad name", btc would have no name and it would still be <1$.
619 2011-07-25 12:37:15 <TuxBlackEdo> UukHoblin: you are a genius
620 2011-07-25 12:37:26 <bonsaikitten> I mean ... if I were interested I'd just look at any of the local aggregator sites and ask for a bill including VAT ... living in a sane country is fun
621 2011-07-25 12:37:34 <TuxBlackEdo> i agree cjdelisle
622 2011-07-25 12:38:43 <cjdelisle> So if I'm an inventor and I can invent something which will drive btc to 100$, people are going to make huge $$ off of my invention but I will make 0.
623 2011-07-25 12:39:02 <cjdelisle> This is going to drive the next big thing away.
624 2011-07-25 12:39:35 <cjdelisle> And I don't really see an easy way around it unless only early adopters invent things which use btc.
625 2011-07-25 12:41:42 <TuxBlackEdo> early adopters probably sold a lot of btc thats what drove the price down to $13
626 2011-07-25 12:43:08 <TuxBlackEdo> if everyone just bought and never sold, the price would never have a down tick
627 2011-07-25 12:43:24 b4epoche_ has joined
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630 2011-07-25 12:46:03 <TuxBlackEdo> i mean all the new interest in bitcoin drove the price down, there was no reason for the price of bitcoind to go down from $30 to $13
631 2011-07-25 12:47:09 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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635 2011-07-25 12:50:35 <TD> cjdelisle: bitcoin would have hit the press without silk road sooner or later anyway
636 2011-07-25 12:50:51 <TD> SR is definitely a net negative for the project, unfortunately
637 2011-07-25 12:51:08 * TD -> out
638 2011-07-25 12:51:09 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
639 2011-07-25 12:51:19 <TuxBlackEdo> it hasnt really hit the press yet
640 2011-07-25 12:51:54 <Joric> check out this video http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2011/07/18/t_bitcoin_currency.cnnmoney/
641 2011-07-25 12:52:12 <TuxBlackEdo> meze grill video?
642 2011-07-25 12:52:34 <Joric> yes
643 2011-07-25 12:53:40 <TuxBlackEdo> that guy bruce wagner runs the bitcoin show
644 2011-07-25 12:54:05 <Joric> bruce wagner just ate 7.035 bitcoins :)
645 2011-07-25 12:55:30 <Joric> thats quite a lunch
646 2011-07-25 12:59:03 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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652 2011-07-25 13:09:15 <TuxBlackEdo> oh shit
653 2011-07-25 13:09:17 danbri has joined
654 2011-07-25 13:09:19 <TuxBlackEdo> bitcoin in the news
655 2011-07-25 13:09:29 <TuxBlackEdo> bitcoin got slashdotted because its insecure
656 2011-07-25 13:09:57 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
657 2011-07-25 13:10:04 danbri_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
658 2011-07-25 13:10:12 <pierce> damn hackers
659 2011-07-25 13:10:27 <b4epoche> link
660 2011-07-25 13:10:32 <TuxBlackEdo> slashdot.org
661 2011-07-25 13:10:33 <TuxBlackEdo> top one
662 2011-07-25 13:11:02 <b4epoche> not sure that's such bad news
663 2011-07-25 13:11:30 <BlueMatt> thats good news
664 2011-07-25 13:11:31 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah its great news
665 2011-07-25 13:11:36 <BlueMatt> points out what we've all known
666 2011-07-25 13:11:48 <BlueMatt> people just keep saying no, no thats wrong
667 2011-07-25 13:11:52 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah awesome i want stories like this every day
668 2011-07-25 13:11:55 <gmaxwell> Yea, I wish it pointed it out with stronger evidence.
669 2011-07-25 13:12:07 <gmaxwell> E.g. I wish they'd actually done the work to identify someone.
670 2011-07-25 13:13:09 <pierce> My favorite part of that story is when they still don't know who the thief is, just a couple other things that they did.
671 2011-07-25 13:13:35 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, make transaction bitcoind syntax proposal: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
672 2011-07-25 13:13:43 <Zagitta> gmaxwell: am i missunderstanding something here? because as far as i can see the only thing they prove is that the services people use with bitcoin makes them tracable NOT bitcoin itself
673 2011-07-25 13:13:47 <da2ce7> do you like the general idea?
674 2011-07-25 13:14:27 bitcoinbulletin has joined
675 2011-07-25 13:14:45 <pierce> Zagitta: ya, and they associate people posting on bitcoin forums with public donation addresses in their signatures etc
676 2011-07-25 13:15:46 <Zagitta> pierce: indeed so wth is the articles point?
677 2011-07-25 13:16:02 <pierce> grant money? maybe they are selling something?
678 2011-07-25 13:16:10 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: bitcoin itself links togeather a lot of activities.
679 2011-07-25 13:16:24 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin itself also potentially attaches them to you, but they didn't look into that.
680 2011-07-25 13:16:56 <gmaxwell> (e.g. someone with a lot of monitoring nodes might be able to guess your IP with high confidence if you send frequently.
681 2011-07-25 13:16:59 <gmaxwell> )
682 2011-07-25 13:17:15 <Zagitta> if you don't use different addresses yeah
683 2011-07-25 13:17:25 <gmaxwell> No, even if you use different addresses.
684 2011-07-25 13:17:41 <gmaxwell> Because bitcoin itself frequently links addresses, which is part of what they were writing about.
685 2011-07-25 13:18:36 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: there should be export/import/sign operations.
686 2011-07-25 13:18:44 <Zagitta> well that was kinda hard to decifer from the article
687 2011-07-25 13:19:37 <b4epoche> "We contract all vertices whose corresponding public-keys belong to the same user. " How?
688 2011-07-25 13:20:12 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: e.g. I should be able to prepare a txn on a node with the blockchain but no private keys.
689 2011-07-25 13:20:16 NorthLite has joined
690 2011-07-25 13:20:36 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: then export it, take it to an offline node with no block chain, sign it, export it, import it, and send
691 2011-07-25 13:20:48 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, ah ok. but you want bitcoin to 'autofill' when there is missing info also.
692 2011-07-25 13:20:53 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: observing them used as common inputs.
693 2011-07-25 13:20:54 <b4epoche> or are they just saying they contract vertices for public-keys they know belong to the same user?
694 2011-07-25 13:21:08 <_W_> as long as you keep separate wallets (so you're not fooled by the client into mixing anonymized and non-anonymized coins), and make sure to anonymize before you spend on anything that can be tied to you, bitcoin is anonymous
695 2011-07-25 13:21:19 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: yes.
696 2011-07-25 13:21:56 klikklak has joined
697 2011-07-25 13:22:15 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
698 2011-07-25 13:22:19 <_W_> would be kind of neat if the client could track various "taint" lables on coins
699 2011-07-25 13:22:30 <gmaxwell> _W_: there is a patch for this!
700 2011-07-25 13:22:42 <_W_> excellent!
701 2011-07-25 13:23:01 <da2ce7> so I guess if we use states, we can use the 'building' state, where we can make the trancstion... when we change it to a 'ready' state when the client checkd that it has all the private keys to preform the operation.
702 2011-07-25 13:27:00 <gmaxwell> The other application of being able to export a signed but incomplete transaction is so you can pass it off for someone else to announce it for improved anonymity.
703 2011-07-25 13:27:37 <da2ce7> :)
704 2011-07-25 13:27:41 <da2ce7> yep adding them now :)
705 2011-07-25 13:28:02 <gmaxwell> s/incomplete/unannounced/
706 2011-07-25 13:28:17 jimon has quit (Excess Flood)
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708 2011-07-25 13:28:28 <da2ce7> so we have 'build' where the transaction is being built... 'ready' when the client checks if it has all the private keys + enougth coins. 'done' when it is signed' and 'submitted' when the note publishes it.
709 2011-07-25 13:28:39 <da2ce7> *node
710 2011-07-25 13:29:10 <da2ce7> should be able to inport/export the transaction at any stage
711 2011-07-25 13:29:15 zapnap has joined
712 2011-07-25 13:29:23 <gmaxwell> right, build, then export, move to ready node. Sign. move the done to a connected node,and submit it.
713 2011-07-25 13:29:44 MrTiggr has joined
714 2011-07-25 13:31:42 Joric has joined
715 2011-07-25 13:33:45 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: there should probably be some special cases for addoutput
716 2011-07-25 13:33:56 <gmaxwell> e.g. addoutput keypool rest
717 2011-07-25 13:34:06 <gmaxwell> (to take change)
718 2011-07-25 13:34:31 <gmaxwell> also perhaps 'addoutput fee' even though it's not really an output.
719 2011-07-25 13:35:53 <da2ce7> ah... we can have an overide addoutput (pubkey) will be the output for any leftover btc
720 2011-07-25 13:36:17 b4epoche_ has joined
721 2011-07-25 13:36:27 <gmaxwell> right and the ability to have it autofill the pubkey from the pool.
722 2011-07-25 13:36:47 <Zagitta> random thought: wouldn't it be possible to build something like TOR with bitcoin transactions? i mean where you can send coins to a p2p network where the coins take a random route spreading out etc and then arrive at a specified address(es)?
723 2011-07-25 13:36:47 <da2ce7> yep, just as we dont specify ammounts on the inputs.
724 2011-07-25 13:37:04 <da2ce7> Zagitta, connect to a hidden service
725 2011-07-25 13:37:19 <da2ce7> bitcoin works great over tor
726 2011-07-25 13:37:39 <da2ce7> also checkout the BtcFn project... bitcoin on freenet.
727 2011-07-25 13:38:04 devon_hillard has joined
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729 2011-07-25 13:38:49 <Zagitta> ah yeah i guess that could work too but this was a way to avoid being able to trace coins back to your public key, at least it would require a ton of work
730 2011-07-25 13:40:02 Eremes has joined
731 2011-07-25 13:40:10 <gmaxwell> Zagitta: well, it would close of using the bitcoin network itself for the deanonymization, but people can still go after endpoints.
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735 2011-07-25 13:55:57 <UukGoblin> hrm, someone should hack gource to work on bitcoin addresses instead of vcs commits
736 2011-07-25 13:57:32 glassresistor has joined
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739 2011-07-25 14:05:56 <Joric> http://minus.com/lcnfxe afrikaans block
740 2011-07-25 14:06:33 johnlockwood_ has joined
741 2011-07-25 14:07:02 <UukGoblin> lol
742 2011-07-25 14:07:45 <Joric> url http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000000000027737bfd1370f3f28b63baf06e54ca646eeb595255cb27087e7
743 2011-07-25 14:08:12 BlueMattBot has quit ()
744 2011-07-25 14:08:28 <TuxBlackEdo> wow i just bought some 100% pure aloe vera on my sunburned and peeling back, and as soon as i put it on i started feeling intense pain and started screaming, i think i woke the whole house up just now :-/
745 2011-07-25 14:08:59 <UukGoblin> Joric, the translation sucks though
746 2011-07-25 14:09:04 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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749 2011-07-25 14:09:45 <UukGoblin> TuxBlackEdo, wuss
750 2011-07-25 14:09:57 <TuxBlackEdo> i know :(
751 2011-07-25 14:10:08 BlueMattBot has quit (Client Quit)
752 2011-07-25 14:10:36 <TuxBlackEdo> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000027737bfd1370f3f28b63baf06e54ca646eeb595255cb27087e7
753 2011-07-25 14:10:39 <TuxBlackEdo> this one?
754 2011-07-25 14:10:41 <TuxBlackEdo> what is with this block?
755 2011-07-25 14:11:19 <UukGoblin> probably has an afrikaans word somewhere in the hashes
756 2011-07-25 14:11:52 <Joric> baaababa :)
757 2011-07-25 14:12:18 <theorbtwo> Hm. A transaction with the same source address multiple times? Odd.
758 2011-07-25 14:13:39 <UukGoblin> theorbtwo, nah, not really... multiple inputs from the same source
759 2011-07-25 14:14:09 <theorbtwo> UukGoblin: Er, why not just add them directly, and only list that source one time?
760 2011-07-25 14:14:32 <UukGoblin> theorbtwo, because input != source
761 2011-07-25 14:14:41 <cjdelisle> multiple people payed that address and now that address can't just pay once, it has to nad over all of the inputs seperately.
762 2011-07-25 14:14:48 <cjdelisle> *hand
763 2011-07-25 14:15:10 <UukGoblin> input != source address I should say. Yeah, cjdelisle described it better
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772 2011-07-25 14:33:27 <Eliel> TuxBlackEdo: there's an interesting transaction in that block... the TxIn part has the same address several times with different amounts. Is that how it works when the same address has received several transactions into it?
773 2011-07-25 14:35:22 <Eliel> ... oh nevermind, I should've read the conversation before asking :)
774 2011-07-25 14:36:54 BlueMatt has joined
775 2011-07-25 14:39:46 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, updated: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
776 2011-07-25 14:40:52 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: whats the purpose of the name if you always reference by number after that?
777 2011-07-25 14:40:59 <da2ce7> for accounting
778 2011-07-25 14:41:12 <da2ce7> like "to paying gmaxwell"
779 2011-07-25 14:41:24 <da2ce7> or "move to safe wallet"
780 2011-07-25 14:41:50 BlueMattBot has joined
781 2011-07-25 14:42:50 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: Perhaps there should be another option for input where it you specify by value not identiy, so you can crete txn where you don't care about the source?
782 2011-07-25 14:43:56 <da2ce7> but you never gain inputs by value... you gain them by source.
783 2011-07-25 14:44:44 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: right, but say I want to pay you 1 btc, I don't care where it comes from.
784 2011-07-25 14:44:49 <gmaxwell> addinput txn 1.0
785 2011-07-25 14:44:55 <gmaxwell> addoutput you 1.0
786 2011-07-25 14:45:06 <gmaxwell> addoutput
787 2011-07-25 14:45:25 <da2ce7> no you would go addoutput me 1.0 then bitcoin will atomaticaly find a input that suits. in the 'reddytransaction {txnumber}' stage
788 2011-07-25 14:45:36 <gmaxwell> ahh. okay!
789 2011-07-25 14:45:39 <gmaxwell> That works too.
790 2011-07-25 14:46:07 <da2ce7> it will also automaticly add a change output if nessccary also
791 2011-07-25 14:46:41 <gmaxwell> yep. Thats good in that it should reduce people footgunning themselves by forgeting change and turning eveything into fees.
792 2011-07-25 14:46:59 <da2ce7> lool 4000 btc fee
793 2011-07-25 14:47:56 <da2ce7> it should be very lazy... where you only need to spcify one output, and the reddytransaction will fill-out everything else for you.
794 2011-07-25 14:48:26 jusan has joined
795 2011-07-25 14:49:01 <jusan> hi *
796 2011-07-25 14:49:12 <da2ce7> gday jusan
797 2011-07-25 14:49:25 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: yup.
798 2011-07-25 14:49:55 copumpkin has joined
799 2011-07-25 14:50:39 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, what does this newtransaction do?
800 2011-07-25 14:50:47 <UukGoblin> and where's 4k btc fee?
801 2011-07-25 14:51:07 <da2ce7> lets you have as little or as much controll on making a tx as you like
802 2011-07-25 14:51:10 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: shownewtransaction might show you the sums of inputs and outputs too? (in the same way that it shows you the fee)
803 2011-07-25 14:51:30 <da2ce7> hmm yeah... good idea.
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806 2011-07-25 14:54:20 <da2ce7> updated: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
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812 2011-07-25 14:56:41 <gmaxwell> "Starbucks"kkkkkkkk~.
813 2011-07-25 14:56:53 <gmaxwell> hah sorry.
814 2011-07-25 14:57:06 <ersi> kekeke~
815 2011-07-25 14:57:10 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: I suppose optional means "maximum" ?
816 2011-07-25 14:57:36 <gmaxwell> What does suggested mean? (on the add outputs for fees)
817 2011-07-25 14:57:41 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
818 2011-07-25 14:58:18 <da2ce7> sugested is minimum.
819 2011-07-25 14:58:48 <da2ce7> optional is "maximum", if needed.
820 2011-07-25 14:58:55 <da2ce7> forced, is always that ammount.
821 2011-07-25 14:59:01 <gmaxwell> Makes sense to me.
822 2011-07-25 15:01:00 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: newtransaction {name} {txid} Make a new txn, copying a prior one.
823 2011-07-25 15:01:21 <da2ce7> ah yes. :)
824 2011-07-25 15:01:59 topace has joined
825 2011-07-25 15:02:02 <da2ce7> and newtransaction {txnumber} {name} for a dupicate
826 2011-07-25 15:02:02 <gmaxwell> Will sign run reddytransaction if it hasn't been done yet?
827 2011-07-25 15:02:19 <da2ce7> no it will be just complain.
828 2011-07-25 15:02:49 <gmaxwell> and shouldn't that be "readytransaction"
829 2011-07-25 15:02:58 <da2ce7> we prob should make a 'completetransaction' that automaticaly ready, signs, and submits.
830 2011-07-25 15:03:17 <da2ce7> sign transaction only proceses transactions in the 'ready' stage.
831 2011-07-25 15:03:37 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: hm. I think most of the time (when I don't care about fee/change details) I'd want to just sign then submit.
832 2011-07-25 15:03:40 <da2ce7> it will throgh an error if you are tring to sign something that is in the 'build' stage
833 2011-07-25 15:03:55 <da2ce7> so I'll add completetransaction
834 2011-07-25 15:04:16 <da2ce7> that will do the, ready > sign > submit in-one
835 2011-07-25 15:04:20 <gmaxwell> But what when I want to sigh but not submit yet (e.g. because I'm going to export and move it?)
836 2011-07-25 15:04:38 BlueMattBot has joined
837 2011-07-25 15:04:47 <gmaxwell> e.g. in the case where you're using an offline secure wallet, it would be maintaining the keypool.
838 2011-07-25 15:04:55 <gmaxwell> So you'd want it to do the final addition of change outputs.
839 2011-07-25 15:05:04 <gmaxwell> I'm nitpicking here.
840 2011-07-25 15:05:06 <da2ce7> hmm... I suppose we can add an override to sign that accepts calle ready if needed.
841 2011-07-25 15:05:11 <da2ce7> *calls
842 2011-07-25 15:05:23 Beccara_ has joined
843 2011-07-25 15:05:26 <da2ce7> but it certanly shouldn't be the default behaviour.
844 2011-07-25 15:05:34 <gmaxwell> yea.. a sign "force"
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846 2011-07-25 15:05:59 <gmaxwell> right, normally you'd want to review before you sign, so I agree with the seperate ready step.
847 2011-07-25 15:07:46 <Eliel> if there's an offline keypool/signing system, there ought to be a protocol where it also includes a new public key to be monitored at times. Not a transaction but message to the network connected system that there's a new address to keep an eye out for.
848 2011-07-25 15:08:11 <Eliel> or maybe just an address, not the public key
849 2011-07-25 15:08:15 danbri has joined
850 2011-07-25 15:08:17 <gmaxwell> ;;later tell sipa that the walletimport/export patch ought to let you just import public keys without the private keys too.
851 2011-07-25 15:08:17 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
852 2011-07-25 15:08:38 Beccara has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
853 2011-07-25 15:08:46 <gmaxwell> You'll need the public key in order to prepare the transaction.
854 2011-07-25 15:09:02 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
855 2011-07-25 15:09:02 <Eliel> ah, then that too
856 2011-07-25 15:09:28 <gmaxwell> ;;later tell sipa (or maybe support importing addresses without the public key too)
857 2011-07-25 15:09:28 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
858 2011-07-25 15:09:38 <gmaxwell> I guess the signing operation can still supply the public key.
859 2011-07-25 15:10:38 <da2ce7> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction updated
860 2011-07-25 15:10:58 WakiMiko has joined
861 2011-07-25 15:11:36 markus has joined
862 2011-07-25 15:13:14 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: you should be able to give sign/submit/complete many txids, and perhaps even "all"
863 2011-07-25 15:13:39 <gmaxwell> the idea being you could prep a bunch of txn in a encrypted wallet.. the only step needing the wallet to be unlocked is sign.
864 2011-07-25 15:13:55 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, you should be using a script for that, I think
865 2011-07-25 15:14:16 <gmaxwell> Perhaps.
866 2011-07-25 15:14:25 <gmaxwell> Fair enough I guess.
867 2011-07-25 15:15:03 <da2ce7> it also add secuiry issues.
868 2011-07-25 15:15:20 <da2ce7> cause you could have a rouge tx that you have forgotten about.
869 2011-07-25 15:16:11 molecular has joined
870 2011-07-25 15:16:38 <gmaxwell> well a multi-add e.g. txid1,txid2 doesn't have that issue, but you're right wrt add.
871 2011-07-25 15:16:40 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i don't think there should be an "all"
872 2011-07-25 15:16:40 darrenburns has joined
873 2011-07-25 15:16:41 <darrenburns> anyone 10 btc fir 12ppusd each
874 2011-07-25 15:16:54 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: you doing offline transactions?
875 2011-07-25 15:17:16 <jrmithdobbs> but i think their should be able to give several txids to everything
876 2011-07-25 15:17:19 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: da2ce7 just wrote up an rpc/cli interface for this.
877 2011-07-25 15:17:36 <jrmithdobbs> s/their/you/
878 2011-07-25 15:17:36 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well, it can be version 2.
879 2011-07-25 15:17:55 <jrmithdobbs> fair enough
880 2011-07-25 15:17:59 <da2ce7> jrmithdobbs, what do you mean?
881 2011-07-25 15:18:00 <jrmithdobbs> that's some good stuff though
882 2011-07-25 15:18:24 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: i mean that other than the sign step you should be able to perform an operation on multiple txids at once like gmaxwell was saying
883 2011-07-25 15:18:25 [twisti] has joined
884 2011-07-25 15:18:37 <da2ce7> ah
885 2011-07-25 15:18:39 <[twisti]> i accidentally sent some money with an old client and no fee. will the money ever get moved ? can i cancel and resend it with a fee somehow ?
886 2011-07-25 15:18:57 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: but you have a valid point about forgotten txns and so i don't think there should be an option to manipulate "all pending"
887 2011-07-25 15:19:18 <jrmithdobbs> da2ce7: actually, so long as there's not an all target i think even multiple txnids in the sign step is fine
888 2011-07-25 15:19:38 <da2ce7> jrmithdobbs, fair point, I'll add an override for a list
889 2011-07-25 15:19:58 <da2ce7> [twisti], probbely, just may take a loooong time
890 2011-07-25 15:20:02 <da2ce7> depending on the size of th tx
891 2011-07-25 15:20:25 <da2ce7> if it is large... you may need to beg one of the big miners to let your tx in...
892 2011-07-25 15:21:25 hippich has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
893 2011-07-25 15:21:47 <[twisti]> no idea how to tell
894 2011-07-25 15:22:18 <da2ce7> sure, it depends if your tx is being relayed or not
895 2011-07-25 15:22:26 darrenburns has quit (Quit: ÂI-n-v-i-s-i-o-n 2.0 Build 3515 July'07 Release)
896 2011-07-25 15:22:35 <da2ce7> umm... load up bitcoin in -debug mode and doubble click on the tx
897 2011-07-25 15:22:53 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: da2ce7: I don't think I read back far enuf but I like this offline transaction method https://github.com/piotrnar/bitcoin/tree/importexporttx
898 2011-07-25 15:23:29 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: shownewtransaction should show you the size in bytes for readytxn
899 2011-07-25 15:23:40 <da2ce7> yep :)
900 2011-07-25 15:23:45 <da2ce7> that would be sooo usefull
901 2011-07-25 15:24:36 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: IIRC it doesn't let you seperate signing, so you can't have a sneakernet wallet without the blockchain for signing.
902 2011-07-25 15:24:41 <prof7bit> quick question: is it planned to implement a wallet export function that would dump the wallet contents into something like an easy to parse text file?
903 2011-07-25 15:24:52 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: bitcointools
904 2011-07-25 15:25:20 <gmaxwell> There is sipa's key import and export code too, which I think will go in for 0.4, but it just does keys.
905 2011-07-25 15:25:23 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I think it's mean to transaction to yourself or trusted entity that won't double spend
906 2011-07-25 15:25:34 <prof7bit> is this part of the official distribution or would i have to convince the users to tust yet another thrid party
907 2011-07-25 15:25:49 <gmaxwell> prof7bit: bitcointools is written by gavin
908 2011-07-25 15:26:09 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: but for offline I guess there is no perfect solution anyway
909 2011-07-25 15:26:18 danbri_ has joined
910 2011-07-25 15:26:27 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
911 2011-07-25 15:26:28 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: da2ce7's sketch looks pretty good.
912 2011-07-25 15:26:30 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
913 2011-07-25 15:26:38 TD has joined
914 2011-07-25 15:26:51 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: where's the link or code?
915 2011-07-25 15:26:58 <prof7bit> because I am planning to use a different wallet file format (not depend on berkeley db) and need an *easy* way for the users to transfer the wallet into my format
916 2011-07-25 15:27:00 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no it doesn't just do keys
917 2011-07-25 15:27:04 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
918 2011-07-25 15:27:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: sipas code will dump the txn info too
919 2011-07-25 15:27:11 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
920 2011-07-25 15:27:15 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: just doesn't by default
921 2011-07-25 15:27:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: oh, then he added that more recently
922 2011-07-25 15:27:29 <jrmithdobbs> it's been in it since i started testing it
923 2011-07-25 15:27:43 <gmaxwell> ah, then I must have missed it
924 2011-07-25 15:27:58 <jrmithdobbs> ya it's hidden away in the help output/code and not really obvious
925 2011-07-25 15:27:59 <jrmithdobbs> heh
926 2011-07-25 15:28:39 <gmaxwell> in any case, the key thing needed for offline wallets is making signing a seperate step... since the offline wallet can't be expected to know about inputs.
927 2011-07-25 15:29:38 <gmaxwell> Unless you're going to carry the blockchain to it by hand, which makes it not all that offline anymore and isn't viable e.g. for a inexpensive iron-wallet hardware device
928 2011-07-25 15:30:12 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I'm not sure but that sounds like the escrow transaction combined with offline transaction, am I wrong?
929 2011-07-25 15:30:25 <prof7bit> is there a binary distribution of libdb for windows anywhere from some official place (just the needed DLL(s), not 45MB of other related stuff in a monster installer from oracle)?
930 2011-07-25 15:30:31 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: er? no.
931 2011-07-25 15:30:41 ewal-otg has joined
932 2011-07-25 15:30:50 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: no I"m right?
933 2011-07-25 15:31:00 zapnap has joined
934 2011-07-25 15:31:15 koleg has joined
935 2011-07-25 15:31:27 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: say I have a little bluetooth electronic device. Looks like a tamagotchi. It contains my private keys.
936 2011-07-25 15:31:41 <prof7bit> i couldn't find anything other than the oracle website
937 2011-07-25 15:31:47 <gmaxwell> My possibly compromised desktop knows my addresses.
938 2011-07-25 15:32:22 <prof7bit> and i can't believe the compiled berkeley db is 30 MB huge?
939 2011-07-25 15:32:59 <gmaxwell> On my desktop I prep a transaction. then send the txn to the tamagotchi. The tamagotchi shows me the transaction and asks my permission to sign it. Then it gets sent back to my desktop which publishes it.
940 2011-07-25 15:33:06 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
941 2011-07-25 15:33:59 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: oh this is cool it's an offline transaction that can be edited before transmision
942 2011-07-25 15:34:13 p0s has joined
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944 2011-07-25 15:34:51 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: not sure you couldn't just break things up into smaler transaction to do the same but hard to say
945 2011-07-25 15:35:24 BlueMatt has joined
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947 2011-07-25 15:35:52 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: escrows are similar they don't realy get submited until they get signed
948 2011-07-25 15:36:14 <da2ce7> jrmithdobbs, added lists for inport/export and processing
949 2011-07-25 15:36:16 <da2ce7> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
950 2011-07-25 15:36:38 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
951 2011-07-25 15:36:48 <da2ce7> I've decided that it is ok to have submittransaction -a, that submits all pending 'done' transactions
952 2011-07-25 15:37:36 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: well, they're signed by multiple parties.
953 2011-07-25 15:37:46 <sacarlson> da2ce7: does this code exist or is it just a fantasy?
954 2011-07-25 15:37:56 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: thats good. an exaple usecase there is to prep a bunch of stuff, then switch to tor and submit.
955 2011-07-25 15:37:56 Zarutian has joined
956 2011-07-25 15:37:59 <da2ce7> sacarlson, just brainstorming
957 2011-07-25 15:38:08 <sacarlson> da2ce7: ok cool
958 2011-07-25 15:38:17 <TD> gmaxwell: the hard part there is, if your desktop is compromised, how do you know the address you see is owned by who you think it is
959 2011-07-25 15:38:25 <TD> bitcoin needs more infrastructure to solve this
960 2011-07-25 15:38:33 danbri_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
961 2011-07-25 15:38:33 <TD> moving away from base58 addresses to more human-friendly identifiers
962 2011-07-25 15:38:59 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: you decide in an escrow or now called multisign transaction how many need to sign it, it could be only one needed
963 2011-07-25 15:39:08 <gmaxwell> TD: solving that is generally hard. Even namecoin doesn't really solve it because lite clients can't easily exist right now.
964 2011-07-25 15:39:15 <TD> yeah
965 2011-07-25 15:39:27 <TD> what we need to do is have secure hardware (or at least, more secure hardware) that knows how to challenge a remote server directly
966 2011-07-25 15:39:27 <da2ce7> sacarlson, we could easly add an overide for a muilt sign system
967 2011-07-25 15:39:39 <TD> eg bitcoin:1Aa535.....?domain=amazon.com&value=20.00
968 2011-07-25 15:39:41 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: the patch as I reviewed it couldn't do that. (e.g. it couldn't export a txn with no sigs at all)
969 2011-07-25 15:39:53 <TD> the receiver would challenge amazon.com to sign a nonce.
970 2011-07-25 15:39:59 <TD> with that public key
971 2011-07-25 15:40:12 NorthLite has quit (Quit: leaving)
972 2011-07-25 15:40:16 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I said one not none
973 2011-07-25 15:40:19 <TD> if it passes, the tamagotchi can show "amazon.com" instead of an opaque address. you can have confidence you're really paying them
974 2011-07-25 15:40:21 <prof7bit> nobody knows whether there exists a binary only distribution of berkeley db for windows? (It should be around 1MB judging from the size of libdb for linux)
975 2011-07-25 15:40:23 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
976 2011-07-25 15:40:27 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: ...
977 2011-07-25 15:40:56 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: if there is only one required then it can't be external to the device making the transaction.
978 2011-07-25 15:41:12 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: as example store money in an escrow to yourself with one signer
979 2011-07-25 15:41:13 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: e.g. there is no way to prep the txn on one device and sign it on another when there is only one sig.
980 2011-07-25 15:41:18 danbri has joined
981 2011-07-25 15:41:34 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: then that device has to have the blockchain
982 2011-07-25 15:41:55 <gmaxwell> What you're suggesting would be pretty easy to add, I think, and a good idea, but it doesn't do it yet.
983 2011-07-25 15:42:14 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: it already exists what I just said
984 2011-07-25 15:42:28 <gmaxwell> It does not. I just looked.
985 2011-07-25 15:42:49 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: check oracle.com (hahahhahaha)
986 2011-07-25 15:43:01 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: you can create two different addreses to yourself on the same walet
987 2011-07-25 15:43:12 <prof7bit> 30MB cant be real. libdb.so is 1MB on my system
988 2011-07-25 15:43:27 DaQatz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
989 2011-07-25 15:43:39 <da2ce7> why ain't we useing a super light sql?
990 2011-07-25 15:43:40 <jrmithdobbs> prof7bit: i'm sure it includes all the docs and shit
991 2011-07-25 15:43:49 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I'll have to create more examples of what can be done with what we already have
992 2011-07-25 15:44:19 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: redeemmultisign will fail when you don't have any of the private keys on the transaction.
993 2011-07-25 15:44:25 bitcoinbulletin has joined
994 2011-07-25 15:44:48 <gmaxwell> In order to do this you'd need a redeemmultisign that works when you have none of the keys.
995 2011-07-25 15:44:57 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I said you will need at least one private key
996 2011-07-25 15:45:20 <gmaxwell> Then it's not at all the same.
997 2011-07-25 15:45:37 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
998 2011-07-25 15:45:47 Eremes has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
999 2011-07-25 15:45:52 <gmaxwell> It would be stupid to require that users convert all their inputs to multisign ones just to secure them.
1000 2011-07-25 15:45:54 <prof7bit> It would be no problem for me to dynamically link (loadlibrary) if the user needs to open an original bitcoin wallet (and otherwise not use this dll at all) but I can' tell my users to install 30MB only to activate this additional functionality
1001 2011-07-25 15:46:08 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I can't ague this with you, I will later make you an example case to prove or disprove I'm right or wrong
1002 2011-07-25 15:46:50 <prof7bit> and i'm not sure what oracle will do to me if i povide this dll alone for download.
1003 2011-07-25 15:47:14 <gmaxwell> libdb is free software.
1004 2011-07-25 15:47:16 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: but I have seen it said before to secure funds in an escrow to yourself even if it required two walets but don't think it's needed
1005 2011-07-25 15:47:27 <talpan> can someone tell me what i am doing wrong ? $move = $bitcoin->move("1 '' 1"); I get error 500 from bitcoin. I've tripplecheked everything, the account balance is correct and other calls are working just fine
1006 2011-07-25 15:47:41 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: I can't parse that.
1007 2011-07-25 15:48:02 <gmaxwell> Yes, you can do it using two signatures and geting everyone who sends you funds to sign to both.
1008 2011-07-25 15:48:22 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: even if it required two as you seem to think it does people can hold unlimited number of walets and private keys
1009 2011-07-25 15:48:44 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: but then you have to have people who send you money do something special.
1010 2011-07-25 15:49:30 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: it's just a mater of not needing a walet to hold money, just a private key
1011 2011-07-25 15:49:38 <AlonzoTG> =P
1012 2011-07-25 15:50:00 * AlonzoTG studies the completely uncommented CDB class which appears to be the centerpiece of the bitcoin client.
1013 2011-07-25 15:51:09 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1014 2011-07-25 15:51:24 <iddo> gmaxwell: why did you say yesterday that we cannot have A sending coin to escrow iff B send coin, where they cannot destroy each other coin, isn't that what the default SIGHASH_ALL mean?
1015 2011-07-25 15:52:58 ewal-otg has quit (Quit: ewal-otg)
1016 2011-07-25 15:53:10 <prof7bit> what version was it again that bitcoin uses? 4.6 or 4.7?
1017 2011-07-25 15:53:13 markus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1018 2011-07-25 15:53:31 <iddo> so why not A just create tx1 that has two inputs and needs two sigs for output, fill his input, sends tx1 to B, B fills his input, signs it and send to A, and A signs it?
1019 2011-07-25 15:54:12 <AlonzoTG> I think the "clear and free memory" code is redundant because heap memory is always cleared by the operating system before being made available to the next process.
1020 2011-07-25 15:54:45 <sacarlson> iddo: multi input escrow? that's what we don't have yet. that's what I'm waiting for
1021 2011-07-25 15:55:02 <iddo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts says that SIGHASH_ALL means "I agree to put my money in, if everyone puts their money in and the outputs are this" ?
1022 2011-07-25 15:55:11 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1023 2011-07-25 15:55:12 <sacarlson> iddo: we already have multi out esrow but still only one input
1024 2011-07-25 15:55:57 <iddo> sacarlson: i'm trying to understand if it cannot be done
1025 2011-07-25 15:56:09 <gmaxwell> iddo: Think about it a bit.
1026 2011-07-25 15:56:26 <sacarlson> iddo: yes I know it can be done just no code to do it yet
1027 2011-07-25 15:56:32 koleg has joined
1028 2011-07-25 15:56:33 <gmaxwell> iddo: if you have a TXN set to require A and B to release, then B can say "fuck you I won't release"
1029 2011-07-25 15:56:57 <gmaxwell> iddo: whoever goes first on the release can get screwed.
1030 2011-07-25 15:57:33 <talpan> can someone tell me what i am doing wrong ? $move = $bitcoin->move("1 '' 1"); I get error 500 from bitcoin. I've tripplechecked everything, the account balance is correct and other calls are working just fine
1031 2011-07-25 15:57:33 <iddo> gmaxwell: but doesnt sighash_all says that the coin get locked if only both of them signed TXN ?
1032 2011-07-25 15:57:51 <sacarlson> iddo: gmaxwell: I've seen other transactions already with multi input so It's just a mater of modifing grofer's code to allow mulit input as well
1033 2011-07-25 15:57:56 Titeuf_87 has joined
1034 2011-07-25 15:58:07 <gmaxwell> iddo: you sign to _release_
1035 2011-07-25 15:58:18 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330])
1036 2011-07-25 15:58:33 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: the inputs are held by seperate people.
1037 2011-07-25 15:58:49 <gmaxwell> iddo: oh I see what you're saying.
1038 2011-07-25 15:59:00 Sedra has quit (Quit: ( IRC :: Quit ))
1039 2011-07-25 15:59:02 <iddo> why cannot we have TXN that says that the inputs are locked only if two signatures on this TXN are provided ?
1040 2011-07-25 15:59:17 <TD> you can
1041 2011-07-25 15:59:33 <gmaxwell> Yes, you do it by using inputs from both.
1042 2011-07-25 16:00:33 <gmaxwell> E.g. I form a txn that says take one coin from me, one coin from you. I sign it, pass to you... you sign it. If both don't sign it, it's not useful.
1043 2011-07-25 16:00:37 <iddo> so this scenario is possible? sending coin to escrow iff B send coin, where they cannot destroy each other coin unless they also deswtroy their own coin, using the default SIGHASH_ALL flag
1044 2011-07-25 16:00:51 <iddo> cool
1045 2011-07-25 16:01:30 <gmaxwell> yea, I totally missed doing it on the _input_ side of the transaction.
1046 2011-07-25 16:01:42 <TD> iddo: what do you want it for ?
1047 2011-07-25 16:01:48 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: got a new feature for your list there.
1048 2011-07-25 16:01:50 TheZimm has joined
1049 2011-07-25 16:02:09 <sacarlson> td: I want it for multi in multi out escrow
1050 2011-07-25 16:02:16 <da2ce7> :)
1051 2011-07-25 16:02:35 <TD> can you illustrate that with a real world example?
1052 2011-07-25 16:02:54 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: I should be able to send you a _partially_ signed txn e.g. sign should sign all it can, but if you don't have all the input keys it only signs the ones it can.
1053 2011-07-25 16:03:02 <sacarlson> td: as in example poker game 10 players put into one escrow funds, later unknown X player collect winings
1054 2011-07-25 16:03:33 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: so e.g. I form a txn that spends 1 of my coins, 1 of your coins. I prep it with all outputs. sign, export, send to you, you review and sign, then transmit.
1055 2011-07-25 16:03:41 agricocb has joined
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1058 2011-07-25 16:03:53 <da2ce7> ah ok... so we inport a tx, in the 'partialy ready state, that has some, but not all of the signutures.
1059 2011-07-25 16:03:59 <gmaxwell> Yep!
1060 2011-07-25 16:04:04 <TD> p2p poker is a hard problem. there's not much point only trying to solve a part of it. do you have a non poker example?
1061 2011-07-25 16:04:05 <da2ce7> ok
1062 2011-07-25 16:04:35 <iddo> can A create the other input saying "B sends one coin", or he must send it privately to B to do it? (not that it should matter much)
1063 2011-07-25 16:04:45 <da2ce7> so will we just need to sign it... don't need to add any more tx's.
1064 2011-07-25 16:04:54 <da2ce7> *um... inputs
1065 2011-07-25 16:04:55 <sacarlson> td: it's just a good example case poker most people can understand
1066 2011-07-25 16:05:17 <da2ce7> we keep on passing arround this 'ready' tx untill all the inputs are signed.
1067 2011-07-25 16:05:24 <sacarlson> td: and yet one of the most complex
1068 2011-07-25 16:05:36 <gmaxwell> E.g. joe blow wants to release his cure for cancer but wants 100 BTC. We trust that joe blow isn't cheating.. but I don't want to send him 1 BTC towards that effort if perhaps he'll not raise 100 btc.
1069 2011-07-25 16:05:53 <gmaxwell> So I start a txn paying him and add 1btc input, then I keep passing it around until it gets to 100 inputs.
1070 2011-07-25 16:06:08 <da2ce7> ahh
1071 2011-07-25 16:06:20 <da2ce7> yep... so we can 'sign' a building tx
1072 2011-07-25 16:06:34 <gmaxwell> sadly there are complications, e.g. if the txn gets too big the outputs may need to change to add fee. :( but oh well. can't fix that.
1073 2011-07-25 16:07:07 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, what about change?
1074 2011-07-25 16:07:25 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: all the outputs need to be set when you start signing.
1075 2011-07-25 16:07:50 <gmaxwell> as if you change the outputs then the signatures are blown up
1076 2011-07-25 16:08:13 <da2ce7> ahh.. but changing an input dosn't hurt it.
1077 2011-07-25 16:08:20 <iddo> i'm trying to understand the comment on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts about not being able to sign input scripts, can that be used by malicious parties to add input scripted to partically signed TXNs ?
1078 2011-07-25 16:08:26 <gmaxwell> right, the inputs are stubbed off.
1079 2011-07-25 16:08:42 <iddo> s/scripted/scripts
1080 2011-07-25 16:08:45 TD has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1081 2011-07-25 16:08:51 TD has joined
1082 2011-07-25 16:09:03 <gmaxwell> iddo: yes, people can send inputs. It's hard to see how that can be malicious.
1083 2011-07-25 16:09:08 <TD> sorry. i guess i missed an answer
1084 2011-07-25 16:09:11 <TD> flaky internet here
1085 2011-07-25 16:10:07 <da2ce7> is this using scripting or, the standard pratice?
1086 2011-07-25 16:10:20 <iddo> gmaxwell: can you elaborate? SIGHASH_ALL behavior is " "I agree to put my money in, if everyone puts their money in and the outputs are this", so what adding unforseen input scripts do?
1087 2011-07-25 16:10:26 <da2ce7> so the outputs are hashed, as a group, then signed.
1088 2011-07-25 16:10:56 <sacarlson> td: last think I sent to you was td: it's just a good example case poker most people can understand td: and yet one of the most complex
1089 2011-07-25 16:11:07 ewal-otg has joined
1090 2011-07-25 16:11:23 <TD> ok
1091 2011-07-25 16:11:54 <gmaxwell> iddo: nothing interesting as far as I know.
1092 2011-07-25 16:12:04 nhodges has joined
1093 2011-07-25 16:12:53 <sacarlson> after poker is solved only thing to add would be time and ??
1094 2011-07-25 16:12:54 <iddo> i'm trying to undestand how the behavior is specified, if you sign without input scripts then can someone add input scripts while still having your signature valid ?
1095 2011-07-25 16:13:07 <TD> they can do that with the SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY flag
1096 2011-07-25 16:13:13 <TD> by default it is not used
1097 2011-07-25 16:13:22 <TD> the inputs are fixed except for the scripts
1098 2011-07-25 16:13:26 <da2ce7> gmaxwell, so If I made a standard tx now, and sent it to a friend... that friend could change one of my inputs?
1099 2011-07-25 16:14:07 <da2ce7> so that he pays for half of it?
1100 2011-07-25 16:14:10 <talpan> can someone tell me what i am doing wrong ? $move = $bitcoin->move("1 '' 1"); I get error 500 from bitcoin. I've tripplechecked everything, the account balance is correct and other calls are working just fine
1101 2011-07-25 16:14:13 <TD> the input scripts can be changed. not the other parts of the tx.
1102 2011-07-25 16:14:28 <TD> talpan: i don't think anyone knows the answer. try looking in debug.log
1103 2011-07-25 16:14:29 <da2ce7> ah ok
1104 2011-07-25 16:14:37 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: yes. well, they could add a bunch of extra coin to it, which would become fee, because your inputs and outputs already matched.
1105 2011-07-25 16:14:47 <iddo> in the example where A and B send coin to escrow only if both of them provide signature, are there any input scripts there?
1106 2011-07-25 16:14:54 * gmaxwell bbl
1107 2011-07-25 16:15:05 <TD> gmaxwell: i don't think that's possible
1108 2011-07-25 16:15:08 <TD> the signatures would break
1109 2011-07-25 16:15:59 <TD> iddo: for escrow see the Contracts page. it describes how such txns are structured
1110 2011-07-25 16:16:08 imsaguy2 has joined
1111 2011-07-25 16:16:26 <sacarlson> on a bad note my experment in merge mining failed, but I have not given up yet
1112 2011-07-25 16:16:30 <iddo> i'm looking there, sorry that i dont understand the bitcoin protocol well enough yet :(
1113 2011-07-25 16:16:31 aviadbd has joined
1114 2011-07-25 16:16:55 <aviadbd> Hey guys
1115 2011-07-25 16:16:57 <TD> iddo: an escrow transaction involves requiring (in the simple case) 2-of-3 signers
1116 2011-07-25 16:17:24 <iddo> TD: yes that example is simple, the output is released by 2 out of 3
1117 2011-07-25 16:17:28 <aviadbd> Hmm
1118 2011-07-25 16:17:30 <aviadbd> Lost my question.
1119 2011-07-25 16:17:33 <aviadbd> :D
1120 2011-07-25 16:18:23 <TD> iddo: i'm not sure what you want, sorry
1121 2011-07-25 16:18:25 <iddo> TD: but i'm asking about the inputs behavior, so A cannot lock B's coin unless both of their coins get locked and signatures will need to be provided to release them
1122 2011-07-25 16:18:29 <da2ce7> so I should add a overide where you can 'sign' a 'underfunded' tx. and add an override to 'addinput' to an signed increasing the fee.
1123 2011-07-25 16:18:42 <da2ce7> so we can sign a 'building' tx.
1124 2011-07-25 16:18:43 RiotCannon has joined
1125 2011-07-25 16:18:46 <sacarlson> td: i'm not sure but I think you could have 2 with just one signer in escrow but I would have to verify
1126 2011-07-25 16:19:00 <TD> yes you can have n-of-m
1127 2011-07-25 16:19:07 <TD> where n <= m obviously
1128 2011-07-25 16:19:37 Backburn has joined
1129 2011-07-25 16:19:42 <TD> iddo: yes, if you want two people to contribute to a pre-agreed set of outputs, you'd create a tx that spends outputs from two different people then have them sign it independently
1130 2011-07-25 16:19:43 <sacarlson> td: that's what I was tring to tell them but it make no sence to most that it would be useful
1131 2011-07-25 16:20:20 <TD> iddo: this is similar to the "assurance contract" section
1132 2011-07-25 16:21:40 <iddo> TD: what does it mean that input scripted arent part of signature? can you insert new input script and still have the signature valid?
1133 2011-07-25 16:21:45 <TD> yes
1134 2011-07-25 16:21:48 <TD> not new inputs
1135 2011-07-25 16:21:52 <TD> you can change the contents of the scripts
1136 2011-07-25 16:21:55 <iddo> i'll try to read the assurance contract section more carefully
1137 2011-07-25 16:22:05 <TD> in practice, scriptSigs only contain data buffers ... signatures and public keys
1138 2011-07-25 16:22:54 <iddo> so how come malicious parties couldn't just insert some malicious input scripts that change the behavior of partially signed txn ?
1139 2011-07-25 16:23:02 <TD> what would they change it to?
1140 2011-07-25 16:23:23 <klikklak> so whats the best way to test if an fpga is actually doing something? I'm getting getworks, but no announcement of golden nonces
1141 2011-07-25 16:23:50 RiotCannon has left ("Leaving")
1142 2011-07-25 16:24:08 <sacarlson> klikklak: try mine something like testnet see what you can get
1143 2011-07-25 16:24:37 redhatzero has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1144 2011-07-25 16:24:39 <sacarlson> klikklak: if that's too easy try namecoin
1145 2011-07-25 16:24:42 <iddo> TD: in the example, A create his input to spend 1 coin, sends privately to B, then B creates his input to spend 1 coin, provides signature and sends back to A, now could A change the input script of B to do something malicious before he signs this txn ?
1146 2011-07-25 16:24:53 <TD> like what?
1147 2011-07-25 16:24:59 eastender has joined
1148 2011-07-25 16:25:08 <klikklak> thats just bitcoind -testnet and the set it to localhost:xxx with rpcuser and rpcpassword ?
1149 2011-07-25 16:25:10 <TD> yes he could change the script. however, i can't think of anything he'd change it to that could be malicious
1150 2011-07-25 16:25:11 <iddo> i'm not sure, what inputscripts can do here?
1151 2011-07-25 16:25:27 <TD> they can do the same as output scripts. however, in practice, the only useful thing they can do is push data buffers onto the stack
1152 2011-07-25 16:25:46 <TD> there's no point putting any logic in scriptSigs as far as I can tell because the script is run with no input data, ie, you can always evaluate the program ahead of time
1153 2011-07-25 16:26:02 <iddo> hmm
1154 2011-07-25 16:26:21 <iddo> can you give some simple example of input script that is useful for something?
1155 2011-07-25 16:26:43 <iddo> maybe i should read assurance contract
1156 2011-07-25 16:26:44 <TD> like i said - the only things you can do with an input script are push signatures and keys. the protocol will let you put arbitrary programs in there
1157 2011-07-25 16:26:52 <TD> for example, you can have a CHECKSIG that will verify a signature
1158 2011-07-25 16:26:56 <TD> and that'd let you sign the input script
1159 2011-07-25 16:27:08 <TD> but, there's no point in doing that
1160 2011-07-25 16:27:12 <sacarlson> iddo: have you even looked at groffer's code yet? https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin it's the only example I have seen in real code of escrow and multisign
1161 2011-07-25 16:27:16 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1162 2011-07-25 16:27:28 <TD> the input script has only one purpose - to set up the stack so the output scripts (scriptPubKey) runs correctly
1163 2011-07-25 16:29:45 <TD> btw don't feel bad - that's a point that eluded me for a while too ;)
1164 2011-07-25 16:29:46 <klikklak> sacarlson: it just exits the testnet according to debug.log
1165 2011-07-25 16:30:00 <TD> i'd like to find a way of having the inputs be more useful
1166 2011-07-25 16:30:01 <iddo> so CHECKSIG in input script is needed for the behavior that the coins get locked only if all users sign it?
1167 2011-07-25 16:30:10 <TD> because i'd like to build transactions that pass arbitrary signed state to the output program
1168 2011-07-25 16:30:15 <TD> i just don't see a way of doing it
1169 2011-07-25 16:30:19 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1170 2011-07-25 16:30:27 <TD> iddo: no. CHECKSIG in input scripts are useless
1171 2011-07-25 16:30:34 <TD> nobody has proposed any protocols that involves one
1172 2011-07-25 16:30:47 <TD> just think of input "scripts" as containers for bits of data the output script needs to run
1173 2011-07-25 16:31:06 <TD> to tie up coins if all users sign, you do exactly what you said before - pass the tx around and collect signatures
1174 2011-07-25 16:31:22 <TD> it's obviously the case that input scripts cannot be signed
1175 2011-07-25 16:31:23 <sacarlson> klikklak: if you can't mine testnet maybe try weedsnet?
1176 2011-07-25 16:31:28 <TD> because otherwise constructing the tx would be impossible
1177 2011-07-25 16:31:36 <TD> adding the later signatures would invalidate the earlier ones
1178 2011-07-25 16:31:46 <sacarlson> klikklak: does it mine at all?
1179 2011-07-25 16:31:49 danbri has joined
1180 2011-07-25 16:32:30 <sacarlson> klikklak: I"m not an expert in mining, I work on low power nets for a reason, no miner power
1181 2011-07-25 16:32:30 <klikklak> sacarlson: I get getworks from eligius, but the testnet gives errors when trying to get getworks
1182 2011-07-25 16:33:05 <sacarlson> klikklak: you running a bitcoind in testnet to run your miner?
1183 2011-07-25 16:33:21 <iddo> TD: so why is it so obvious that input script that provide data to output script canont be malicious? is it because the users who sign the TXN verified how the output behaves in this case, so they know that it doesnt involve any data that is controlled by an input script ?
1184 2011-07-25 16:33:59 <TD> it could be 'malicious' in the sense of wasting cpu time. that's about it.
1185 2011-07-25 16:34:05 <TD> what is the attack you have in mind?
1186 2011-07-25 16:34:11 <klikklak> sacarlson: do I need to turn off regular bitcoin? exact commands were: bitcoind -testnet, then quartus_stp -t mine.tcl
1187 2011-07-25 16:34:37 <sacarlson> klikklak: no but you would have to run another bitcoind in testnet
1188 2011-07-25 16:34:43 <iddo> i dont have attack in mind because i still didnt understand what input scripts do exactly...
1189 2011-07-25 16:34:45 FractalUniverse has joined
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1191 2011-07-25 16:35:17 <TD> they /can/ do anything an output script can do. in practice what they /actually/ do is just push data buffers onto the stack
1192 2011-07-25 16:35:23 <TD> input and output scripts are run independently
1193 2011-07-25 16:35:32 <TD> the only state they share is the primary stack
1194 2011-07-25 16:35:35 <sacarlson> klikklak: can you do bitcoind -rpcport 18332 getinfo
1195 2011-07-25 16:35:38 <lfm> iddo input scripts supply a signature, the output script then confirms the sig is correct
1196 2011-07-25 16:35:42 <TD> thus the output script runs with the stack as input
1197 2011-07-25 16:35:53 larsivi has joined
1198 2011-07-25 16:35:55 <TD> input scripts run with nothing as input, thus, there's no point putting logic in them
1199 2011-07-25 16:36:08 <TD> at least not with any currently proposed protocols. and i suspect there will never be a use for that
1200 2011-07-25 16:36:25 <TD> so there's nothing malicious you can do. the input has to provide data to make the connected output script run
1201 2011-07-25 16:36:25 <iddo> hmm
1202 2011-07-25 16:36:39 <TD> if it doesn't do that, the tx is invalid. if it does, you can import the value. there are no other possibilities.
1203 2011-07-25 16:36:45 <TD> the "script" language is very, very limited
1204 2011-07-25 16:37:08 <iddo> ok
1205 2011-07-25 16:37:19 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1207 2011-07-25 16:38:33 idnar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1208 2011-07-25 16:38:42 <klikklak> sacarlson: thats what the initial bitcoind -testnet does, right? I get could not connect to server on that port
1209 2011-07-25 16:39:22 <lfm> klikklak: ya it takes several seconds for it to start to the point where it will accept connections
1210 2011-07-25 16:39:44 <sacarlson> klikklak: well it must not be running or maybe not on that port?
1211 2011-07-25 16:40:18 <klikklak> its running alright, I'll take look in debug.log
1212 2011-07-25 16:40:22 <lfm> or maybe too soon after starting
1213 2011-07-25 16:40:33 <sacarlson> klikklak: lfm: oh ya maybe it just hasn't downloaded all the blocks yet
1214 2011-07-25 16:40:50 <lfm> what block number is it at?
1215 2011-07-25 16:41:15 <klikklak> well, debug.log has the error for rpcuser/pw (which are set) and it ends with bitcoin exiting
1216 2011-07-25 16:41:22 <klikklak> but the process seems to be there
1217 2011-07-25 16:41:36 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1218 2011-07-25 16:41:37 <gribble> 137988
1219 2011-07-25 16:42:03 <lfm> klikklak: wrong user/pw?
1220 2011-07-25 16:42:50 <sacarlson> klikklak: maybe you have user/pw reversed as I did, took me 3 days to figure that out >>>> me not very smart<<<
1221 2011-07-25 16:44:28 eastender has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1222 2011-07-25 16:45:25 eastender has joined
1223 2011-07-25 16:45:36 <lfm> klikklak: could you run bitcoind getinfo ?
1224 2011-07-25 16:48:03 <klikklak> lfm: I presume thats safe enough to paste on a pastebin?
1225 2011-07-25 16:48:20 danbri_ has joined
1226 2011-07-25 16:48:21 <lfm> just tell us what blocks and connections you have
1227 2011-07-25 16:48:54 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1228 2011-07-25 16:49:21 <klikklak> connections 1, and blocks 0
1229 2011-07-25 16:49:36 <lfm> ok you havent even gotten started.
1230 2011-07-25 16:49:43 <copumpkin> http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
1231 2011-07-25 16:49:48 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1232 2011-07-25 16:49:49 <gribble> 137988
1233 2011-07-25 16:49:51 Incitatus has joined
1234 2011-07-25 16:50:00 mosimo has joined
1235 2011-07-25 16:50:12 SecretSJ has joined
1236 2011-07-25 16:50:19 <lfm> or if its testnet, is smaller but sure not zero
1237 2011-07-25 16:51:49 <klikklak> lfm: hmm. I had namecoin working, lets see if its still intact
1238 2011-07-25 16:51:59 BTCTrader_ has joined
1239 2011-07-25 16:52:39 <lfm> testnet "blocks" : 31430,
1240 2011-07-25 16:52:44 <MrSam> :)
1241 2011-07-25 16:53:08 wardearia has joined
1242 2011-07-25 16:53:37 <lfm> klikklak: and I get 8 connections almost right away
1243 2011-07-25 16:54:40 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1246 2011-07-25 16:56:12 <klikklak> lfm: right, looks like its broken, but I'll give namecoin a shot
1247 2011-07-25 16:56:26 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1248 2011-07-25 16:56:31 <lfm> do you have the latest version? 0.3.24?
1249 2011-07-25 16:57:00 <lfm> recomended if you dont
1250 2011-07-25 16:57:16 Speeder has joined
1251 2011-07-25 16:57:34 amiller has joined
1252 2011-07-25 16:57:36 <lfm> iv never tried namecoin
1253 2011-07-25 16:59:27 <klikklak> I've got the latest
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1255 2011-07-25 17:00:29 suriv_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1256 2011-07-25 17:01:26 * Zagitta needs assistance with his ubuntu box... (once again)
1257 2011-07-25 17:01:33 <klikklak> namecoin craps out with a similar error (Request: {"method": "getwork", "params": [], "id":0} ERROR! Waiting to try again ...) despite it running ok and reporting that it has blocks in it with getinfo
1258 2011-07-25 17:02:46 bernie has joined
1259 2011-07-25 17:03:18 <klikklak> well, not namecoin, but the fpga tcl script. very strang
1260 2011-07-25 17:04:59 suriv has joined
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1262 2011-07-25 17:07:55 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1263 2011-07-25 17:08:21 Beccara_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1264 2011-07-25 17:08:55 <JFK911> ubuntu is crap
1265 2011-07-25 17:09:13 <klikklak> works with phoenix. doubly strange
1266 2011-07-25 17:09:14 Beccara_ has joined
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1269 2011-07-25 17:12:34 <klikklak> yay, must've been a typo since copypaste worked. stupidity, I know. now if it'll find a block on namecoin..
1270 2011-07-25 17:13:06 da2ce7 has joined
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1272 2011-07-25 17:13:39 da2ce7 has joined
1273 2011-07-25 17:13:52 <klikklak> actually it says "Errors:Current nonce 00000000" all on separate lines, I've always thought that just means that there's no errors
1274 2011-07-25 17:15:44 Stellar has joined
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1276 2011-07-25 17:17:10 <Zagitta> JFK911: well it works fine for my needs :P
1277 2011-07-25 17:18:08 <JFK911> as long as you have help, possibly
1278 2011-07-25 17:18:34 <Zagitta> i changed my scsi controller though and for some reason it refuse to get to the login screen, i can ssh just fine to it but it's stuck at a screen with a background and the cursor is that waiting icon
1279 2011-07-25 17:19:01 <JFK911> Ha
1280 2011-07-25 17:19:23 <JFK911> that's a NEW one
1281 2011-07-25 17:19:47 <JFK911> do you know how to boot without starting the gui
1282 2011-07-25 17:20:02 <JFK911> if you get a text login: then that's a clue that the gui dont want to play nice with something
1283 2011-07-25 17:20:32 <Zagitta> well i can press ctrl-alt F2 and get to the text login
1284 2011-07-25 17:20:36 <JFK911> ok
1285 2011-07-25 17:20:41 <JFK911> so the text console works
1286 2011-07-25 17:20:48 <JFK911> i wonder if its your video drivers
1287 2011-07-25 17:21:01 <Zagitta> probably is because i moved the gfx card one slot
1288 2011-07-25 17:21:03 <JFK911> if you installed ati drivers then update the kernel that can cause you a problem (it did for me)
1289 2011-07-25 17:21:16 Incitatus has joined
1290 2011-07-25 17:21:46 <JFK911> are you mining that way?
1291 2011-07-25 17:21:49 <Zagitta> so you suggest to reinstall the drivers?
1292 2011-07-25 17:21:59 <Zagitta> yeh i use the binary drivers from ati
1293 2011-07-25 17:22:10 <JFK911> i'm not sure. that could help. i'm not sure what it might hurt.
1294 2011-07-25 17:22:52 <JFK911> since i just had a miner on the machine, i wiped/reinstalled and then did updates before installing the ati stuff
1295 2011-07-25 17:22:58 <Zagitta> well worst case senario is i reinstall
1296 2011-07-25 17:23:49 <Zagitta> anyway brb time for some dinner with the family
1297 2011-07-25 17:26:25 <JFK911> enjoy. im wondering that since x wont start, maybe your miner won't start either.
1298 2011-07-25 17:26:31 <JFK911> thats an other clue that points to the ati stuff
1299 2011-07-25 17:28:06 <TuxBlackEdo> WHAT
1300 2011-07-25 17:29:52 thefinn93 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1301 2011-07-25 17:30:45 <kreal-> do blockexplorer have an api
1302 2011-07-25 17:30:51 thefinn93 has joined
1303 2011-07-25 17:31:25 <Joric> kreal-, http://blockexplorer.com/q
1304 2011-07-25 17:31:36 QuantumQrack has joined
1305 2011-07-25 17:31:48 <kreal-> got it thanks
1306 2011-07-25 17:37:12 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1307 2011-07-25 17:37:15 <Joric> i want a built-in blockexplorer in every client :(
1308 2011-07-25 17:37:59 <Joric> gae doesn't support sockets, only urlfetch :(
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1321 2011-07-25 17:56:23 <Zagitta> JFK911: i'm back
1322 2011-07-25 17:56:30 <Zagitta> i'll try to fire up the miner
1323 2011-07-25 17:58:04 rethaw has joined
1324 2011-07-25 17:58:55 <Zagitta> Looks like phoenix sees the card but can't send work to it because it's stuck at 0 hash/s
1325 2011-07-25 17:59:37 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1327 2011-07-25 18:04:13 sabalaba has joined
1328 2011-07-25 18:04:50 <JFK911> yeah drivers, i hope you get it working
1329 2011-07-25 18:07:55 <Zagitta> JFK911: thanks, i'll reinstall them and if it doesn't work i'll setup a hardware raid and install some linux distro on that, any suggestions? I'd prefer to have a gui just in case because i'm still not completly comfortable with the terminal
1330 2011-07-25 18:08:37 <JFK911> i suggest to use md softraid with sata, its the best bang for buck
1331 2011-07-25 18:09:03 <JFK911> raid1 or raid10-near
1332 2011-07-25 18:09:42 <JFK911> now that this is around, i really don't like messing with raid controllers
1333 2011-07-25 18:10:03 talpan has left ("Verlassend")
1334 2011-07-25 18:10:13 <JFK911> i don't see the point, the memory and cpu on the motherboard should be faster than the dinky adapter, and we've got stuff like 8 core now
1335 2011-07-25 18:10:21 thefinn93 has left ("BAI")
1336 2011-07-25 18:11:14 <Zagitta> well this is an old server
1337 2011-07-25 18:11:22 <Zagitta> 2x P4 based xeon
1338 2011-07-25 18:11:25 <Zagitta> 3 gb ram
1339 2011-07-25 18:11:31 <Zagitta> (1 core each btw)
1340 2011-07-25 18:11:46 <Zagitta> and it's scsi discs :)
1341 2011-07-25 18:11:53 <JFK911> sounds like my box, except ive got one core with ht
1342 2011-07-25 18:12:22 <Zagitta> problem is that when i ran softraid i was limited to 160mb/s, at least on the mb's scsi controller
1343 2011-07-25 18:12:33 <JFK911> oh right, because the one bus is a bottleneck
1344 2011-07-25 18:12:46 <Zagitta> so now i'm trying the external one connected to the PCI-X port
1345 2011-07-25 18:13:35 <JFK911> oh so thats throughput of 16 MBYTES per sec?
1346 2011-07-25 18:13:43 <Zagitta> 160 mbytes
1347 2011-07-25 18:13:46 <JFK911> oh ok
1348 2011-07-25 18:13:51 <JFK911> thats pretty good for an old computer
1349 2011-07-25 18:14:11 <Zagitta> i guess but 2 discs yield 140mb/s
1350 2011-07-25 18:15:02 <Zagitta> hmm hang on
1351 2011-07-25 18:15:02 <JFK911> last time i did softraid with scsi chains i had a giant box with separate pci-x buses
1352 2011-07-25 18:15:28 <JFK911> so i added 2 host adapters on different pcix buses
1353 2011-07-25 18:15:35 <Zagitta> just because two of the discs are ultra scsi 160 shouldn't limit the whole raid right?
1354 2011-07-25 18:15:36 <JFK911> that worked very well
1355 2011-07-25 18:15:53 <JFK911> i think no, but i dont quite remember this scsi arcana
1356 2011-07-25 18:16:20 <Zagitta> lets take this in PM btw so we don't clutter up the logs
1357 2011-07-25 18:16:38 Joric has quit ()
1358 2011-07-25 18:16:58 <JFK911> im not sure how much help i can be anyway, but sure i'll help you brainstorm
1359 2011-07-25 18:17:33 aviadbd has quit (Quit: bye bye)
1360 2011-07-25 18:18:17 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1361 2011-07-25 18:20:06 <Zagitta> Sure you're a big help :D
1362 2011-07-25 18:20:33 <klikklak> when starting a miner, it reports as current nonce 000000. is this correct? should it be some actual figure?
1363 2011-07-25 18:21:22 <cjdelisle> I think it starts at 0 and counts up
1364 2011-07-25 18:21:37 <klikklak> ok, then its correct
1365 2011-07-25 18:22:44 <cjdelisle> I was playing with a cudaminer implementation and was mining in a pool for a friend, I kinda stopped because I kept hacking it up to optimize it and never once did it report that I was generating bad hashes so I assumed it wasn't actually double checking them O_O
1366 2011-07-25 18:24:04 <JFK911> send me that code please
1367 2011-07-25 18:24:10 <JFK911> i have one nvidia card
1368 2011-07-25 18:24:27 <cjdelisle> it was just puddingpop's miner
1369 2011-07-25 18:24:43 * cjdelisle probably butchered the name, memory is iffey
1370 2011-07-25 18:26:02 <cjdelisle> I was able to strip off a single round at the top of each sha run and a single round at the bottom of the last one, I'm not sure if it's all kosher because it wasn't ever reporting any errors.
1371 2011-07-25 18:26:16 <cjdelisle> ever
1372 2011-07-25 18:33:44 <da2ce7> cjdelisle, finding blocks on the testnet?
1373 2011-07-25 18:33:57 <cjdelisle> nah, I was playing for real
1374 2011-07-25 18:34:38 <cjdelisle> Friend of mine was fooling around with deepbit and he gave me his info so I fired it up for a few minutes and tried hacking up the sha code to improve it.
1375 2011-07-25 18:35:47 <cjdelisle> Either I am an awesome programmer who can mod the hell out of sha256 without causing it to break, or deepbit accepts bad nouces without reporting an error.
1376 2011-07-25 18:35:49 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1377 2011-07-25 18:36:23 mmoya has joined
1378 2011-07-25 18:39:48 <cjdelisle> for example: if I'm not mistaken, the first round of the second sysle can be replaced with this:
1379 2011-07-25 18:39:52 <cjdelisle> D = 0x98c7e2a2 + work[0]; H = 0xfc08884d + work[0];
1380 2011-07-25 18:40:20 <cjdelisle> *cycle
1381 2011-07-25 18:40:59 <mtrlt> yeah
1382 2011-07-25 18:41:12 <mtrlt> that's one of the optimizations i did too.
1383 2011-07-25 18:41:18 <mtrlt> and submitted to diablominer :P
1384 2011-07-25 18:41:28 <cjdelisle> cool
1385 2011-07-25 18:42:00 <cjdelisle> I kind of stopped fooling with it because I didn't know if I was generating garbage and I was not motivated to add a double check function.
1386 2011-07-25 18:42:17 idnar has joined
1387 2011-07-25 18:44:55 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: most miners have a double check function already.
1388 2011-07-25 18:45:03 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1389 2011-07-25 18:45:13 <gmaxwell> So just use one of those and if it starts spouting "hardware errors" then you know you've screwed up.
1390 2011-07-25 18:45:38 <mtrlt> yep, you used a sucky miner :p
1391 2011-07-25 18:45:57 <cjdelisle> http://pastebay.com/133640
1392 2011-07-25 18:46:01 <cjdelisle> There's my work
1393 2011-07-25 18:46:50 <cjdelisle> the if statement at the bottom is kind of interesting, I don't know how "all wet" I am there but something like that should be possible.
1394 2011-07-25 18:47:02 x6763 has joined
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1396 2011-07-25 18:48:07 <gmaxwell> "
1397 2011-07-25 18:49:00 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: most kernels don't bother to check G on the GPU, IIRC.
1398 2011-07-25 18:49:05 <mtrlt> current kernels don't ... yes
1399 2011-07-25 18:49:16 <gmaxwell> just checking H already gives youa factor of 2^32 reduction in work...
1400 2011-07-25 18:49:20 <mtrlt> yep
1401 2011-07-25 18:49:28 <mtrlt> and saves one round on the kernel
1402 2011-07-25 18:49:44 idnar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1403 2011-07-25 18:50:22 <cjdelisle> ok, when I found it, it didn't check G but it kept on going after finding 0's for H which was totally o_O
1404 2011-07-25 18:51:02 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1405 2011-07-25 18:52:08 <gmaxwell> it might be an issue on some kind of supersnazzy asic miner where saving some communications cost for H=0 is worth it... but you'd want to do constant operations there of course.
1406 2011-07-25 18:52:27 nhodges has joined
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1408 2011-07-25 18:53:51 <prof7bit> which is the exact version of libdb i need? 4.6 or 4.7?
1409 2011-07-25 18:54:55 idnar has joined
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1412 2011-07-25 18:55:46 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1413 2011-07-25 18:56:28 idnar has joined
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1417 2011-07-25 18:59:09 <da2ce7> luke-jr, when you get time... please check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Da2ce7:New_Transaction
1418 2011-07-25 18:59:14 <da2ce7> I've been working on it a bit.
1419 2011-07-25 18:59:32 idnar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1420 2011-07-25 18:59:45 Joric has joined
1421 2011-07-25 18:59:48 <luke-jr> Each new transaction is defined by a random txnumber that should be unique globally. <-- why not txid?
1422 2011-07-25 19:00:10 <da2ce7> becaue the entire tx hasn't been made yet. so we cannot hash it.
1423 2011-07-25 19:00:18 Incitatus has joined
1424 2011-07-25 19:00:37 <da2ce7> as soon as we change it... the txid will change
1425 2011-07-25 19:00:47 <luke-jr> once signed, I don't think anything can changeâ¦
1426 2011-07-25 19:00:58 <da2ce7> no, you can change the inputs
1427 2011-07-25 19:01:00 <cjdelisle> hmm
1428 2011-07-25 19:01:02 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1429 2011-07-25 19:01:13 <cjdelisle> I just thought of a highly effective way to do analisys on sha256
1430 2011-07-25 19:02:02 <da2ce7> according to gmaxwell, the outputs are fixed, but the inputs may change
1431 2011-07-25 19:02:20 <luke-jr> da2ce7: inputs are what sign it, soâ¦
1432 2011-07-25 19:02:42 <luke-jr> da2ce7: addinput doesn't make sense; you have to specify the input indexes
1433 2011-07-25 19:03:10 <da2ce7> I specify the tx and the public key.
1434 2011-07-25 19:03:23 <luke-jr> that's not sufficient
1435 2011-07-25 19:03:24 <da2ce7> that is enougth to lookup the input indexes
1436 2011-07-25 19:03:34 <luke-jr> there can be multiple outputs with the same key
1437 2011-07-25 19:03:35 <cjdelisle> Take all of the blocks solved so far and rerun the hash which solved the block, take all of the points of state along the way and look for patterns, IE: if D is 0xabcdef01 in cycle 25, you have a 60% better chance of making a find.
1438 2011-07-25 19:04:18 <lfm> you specify the txn hash and the output number then give a signatre (and sometimes public key)
1439 2011-07-25 19:04:25 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: most people are pool mining anyway, so it'd be more worthwhile to think of shortcuts to H==0 :p
1440 2011-07-25 19:04:40 <mtrlt> because that's the share difficulty in most pools
1441 2011-07-25 19:04:58 <cjdelisle> yea so if(H==0) { return; }
1442 2011-07-25 19:05:30 <mtrlt> and you can generate shares a lot faster
1443 2011-07-25 19:05:35 <mtrlt> so you can get a lot more data that way.
1444 2011-07-25 19:05:39 <cjdelisle> ofc /me would rather the lottery ticker than the steady payout of diddly
1445 2011-07-25 19:06:07 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1446 2011-07-25 19:06:52 <cjdelisle> that said, mining isn't that exciting, cryptoanalisys on the other hand is pretty exciting :)
1447 2011-07-25 19:06:59 <lfm> ;;seen diddly
1448 2011-07-25 19:06:59 <gribble> I have not seen diddly.
1449 2011-07-25 19:07:08 <mtrlt> yep :P
1450 2011-07-25 19:07:17 <mtrlt> i've wanted to get into cryptanalysis but my progress has been slow
1451 2011-07-25 19:08:13 <cjdelisle> The statistical cryptanalisys I mentioned a few lines up would be lots of fun.
1452 2011-07-25 19:08:19 <mtrlt> yep
1453 2011-07-25 19:08:23 <mtrlt> only need a bunch of shares
1454 2011-07-25 19:08:43 <cjdelisle> ;;blocks
1455 2011-07-25 19:08:43 <gribble> Error: "blocks" is not a valid command.
1456 2011-07-25 19:08:49 <forrestv> cjdelisle, i think that it's unlikely to produce anything useful
1457 2011-07-25 19:08:53 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1458 2011-07-25 19:08:54 <gribble> 138005
1459 2011-07-25 19:09:00 <mtrlt> yea me too but it's still exciting :P
1460 2011-07-25 19:09:02 <prof7bit> there was a readme in the src that mentioned the dependencies but it is not called "readme", it was hidden somewhere i can't find it...
1461 2011-07-25 19:09:05 <cjdelisle> mm indeed pretty small sample
1462 2011-07-25 19:09:32 <mtrlt> well just log every share oyur miners send :-)
1463 2011-07-25 19:09:37 Nesetalis has joined
1464 2011-07-25 19:09:38 <lfm> a gpu will produce shares pretty fast
1465 2011-07-25 19:10:07 larsivi has joined
1466 2011-07-25 19:10:09 <prof7bit> this must be a really difficult question that not even the bitcoin devs can answer it
1467 2011-07-25 19:10:09 <cjdelisle> I only have an nshittia 470gtx
1468 2011-07-25 19:10:44 <lfm> prof7bit: ?
1469 2011-07-25 19:11:14 <lfm> build-unix.txt?
1470 2011-07-25 19:11:17 <prof7bit> the version if libdb that is needed (because i cannot find the readme file anymore that mentioned it)
1471 2011-07-25 19:11:27 <b4epoche> 4.8
1472 2011-07-25 19:11:37 <b4epoche> or 4.7
1473 2011-07-25 19:11:42 mmoya has joined
1474 2011-07-25 19:11:49 <da2ce7> hmm... yep, luke-jr, I'll change it to tx ID + index
1475 2011-07-25 19:12:54 <prof7bit> or? I thought every mino version was incompatible to the previous?
1476 2011-07-25 19:13:19 <lfm> prof7bit: ya, dont mix em
1477 2011-07-25 19:13:20 <b4epoche> osx client uses 4.8, but I think the others might use 4.7
1478 2011-07-25 19:13:42 <lfm> 4.8 works but changes the dbs so 4.7 cant read em
1479 2011-07-25 19:14:18 <prof7bit> is it only the transaction log that is different or is it the dat file itself? will I cause damage to the wallet if i try to open it with the wrong version?
1480 2011-07-25 19:14:39 <lfm> prof7bit: it maybe just the log, not totaly sure
1481 2011-07-25 19:15:35 <prof7bit> but read-only access to all wallets should be possible with 4.8 then?
1482 2011-07-25 19:15:44 <prof7bit> without damaging anything
1483 2011-07-25 19:15:58 <lfm> not usre if read-only works at all
1484 2011-07-25 19:16:17 idnar has joined
1485 2011-07-25 19:16:21 <lfm> never tried
1486 2011-07-25 19:16:55 Akiron has joined
1487 2011-07-25 19:17:02 <b4epoche> make a copy
1488 2011-07-25 19:17:02 <prof7bit> i'm just trying to make a little "import wallet.dat" functionality for my client
1489 2011-07-25 19:17:56 <nanotube> prof7bit: in my experience, just the log files.
1490 2011-07-25 19:18:00 <Akiron> is there an existing function that extracts the value before a given opcode in a scriptSig or CScript object?
1491 2011-07-25 19:18:15 <nanotube> i've used my wallet/blockchain with bdb4.8, then upon switching back to 4.7 just had to wipe the logfiles, and all was good.
1492 2011-07-25 19:18:29 <prof7bit> this is good news
1493 2011-07-25 19:20:42 Evious has joined
1494 2011-07-25 19:20:47 dr_win has joined
1495 2011-07-25 19:21:08 <prof7bit> now i only need to find some good tutorial for how to use the libdb c api
1496 2011-07-25 19:21:24 klikklak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1497 2011-07-25 19:21:37 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1498 2011-07-25 19:23:03 <b4epoche> what? there's no pascal api?
1499 2011-07-25 19:23:25 <prof7bit> its the same
1500 2011-07-25 19:23:53 <prof7bit> how would a pascal API look like in your eyes?
1501 2011-07-25 19:24:04 <Joric> why wonder there's no fortran api either
1502 2011-07-25 19:24:33 <prof7bit> i'm using C calling conventions, so I need the C headers and need to know how and which functions to call
1503 2011-07-25 19:24:58 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1504 2011-07-25 19:25:26 <prof7bit> i have never before used libdb for anything so i need to learn how to use this thing now
1505 2011-07-25 19:26:15 <Joric> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=825
1506 2011-07-25 19:26:44 <Joric> Read 435 times
1507 2011-07-25 19:27:28 TheZimm has joined
1508 2011-07-25 19:27:59 <prof7bit> i gess its 436 now.
1509 2011-07-25 19:28:02 <prof7bit> guess
1510 2011-07-25 19:28:26 <nanotube> 437 :)
1511 2011-07-25 19:28:42 <copumpkin> 436
1512 2011-07-25 19:28:50 zamgo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1513 2011-07-25 19:28:51 <copumpkin> (I read so badly it actually decrements the counter)
1514 2011-07-25 19:29:02 <nanotube> haha
1515 2011-07-25 19:29:05 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1516 2011-07-25 19:29:48 * copumpkin challenges nimnul to a haskell-duel
1517 2011-07-25 19:29:56 <copumpkin> to win his hard-earned coins
1518 2011-07-25 19:30:20 <cjdelisle> umm have time fir a stupid question?
1519 2011-07-25 19:30:20 klikklak has joined
1520 2011-07-25 19:30:31 <copumpkin> about haskell? sure!
1521 2011-07-25 19:30:49 <cjdelisle> ((x & 0xffffffff) >> bits) <-- why & 0xfffffff?
1522 2011-07-25 19:31:44 <cjdelisle> I thought it was because the proc would pad the high bits with 1's when you shifted unless you did that but now I'm not so sure.
1523 2011-07-25 19:31:59 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: what language?
1524 2011-07-25 19:32:10 <cjdelisle> opencl? cuda?
1525 2011-07-25 19:32:17 <TuxBlackEdo> 0xffffffff = -1 right?
1526 2011-07-25 19:32:32 <mtrlt> TuxBlackEdo: yes if it's a 32bit signed int
1527 2011-07-25 19:32:41 MobiusL has joined
1528 2011-07-25 19:32:41 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: if it's a 32bit int, there's no reason to do that.
1529 2011-07-25 19:32:52 <mtrlt> if it's a 64bit one, then it's understandable :p
1530 2011-07-25 19:33:00 <cjdelisle> mkay
1531 2011-07-25 19:33:02 <cjdelisle> so #define rotateright(x,bits) (((x & 0xffffffff) >> bits) | (x << (32 - bits)))
1532 2011-07-25 19:33:05 <mtrlt> and if there actually is a reason to do that with a 32bit int, then the language sucks ass
1533 2011-07-25 19:33:06 <cjdelisle> is b0rked
1534 2011-07-25 19:33:21 <mtrlt> well just s/(x & 0xffffffff)/x/
1535 2011-07-25 19:33:28 <TuxBlackEdo> mtrlt: how did you learn how to program? and how old are you?
1536 2011-07-25 19:33:34 <TuxBlackEdo> i always wonder..
1537 2011-07-25 19:33:37 <mtrlt> i learnt it on my own
1538 2011-07-25 19:33:43 <mtrlt> i'm in my 20s
1539 2011-07-25 19:33:43 <Joric> in java crap like this was used to make an unsigned number if i remember right
1540 2011-07-25 19:33:45 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah i never took a class either
1541 2011-07-25 19:33:51 <TuxBlackEdo> early 20s or late 20s?
1542 2011-07-25 19:33:53 <mtrlt> early
1543 2011-07-25 19:33:57 <TuxBlackEdo> oh sweet
1544 2011-07-25 19:34:00 <mtrlt> i actually took a class in high school
1545 2011-07-25 19:34:03 <mtrlt> mainly because it was easy :P
1546 2011-07-25 19:34:07 <TuxBlackEdo> lol nice
1547 2011-07-25 19:34:08 <cjdelisle> I always thought it padded stuff with 1s when you down shifted
1548 2011-07-25 19:34:17 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: not with unsigned ints.
1549 2011-07-25 19:34:27 <mtrlt> at least in c++..
1550 2011-07-25 19:34:34 <cjdelisle> oh right the sign bit is a pita
1551 2011-07-25 19:34:39 <mtrlt> with signed ints it's undefined in c++
1552 2011-07-25 19:34:44 <mtrlt> dunno about opencl or cuda
1553 2011-07-25 19:35:02 <cjdelisle> because if it pads with 0s then the & can just plain be stripped
1554 2011-07-25 19:35:14 <mtrlt> um
1555 2011-07-25 19:35:19 <mtrlt> (x & 0xFFFFFFFF) == x
1556 2011-07-25 19:35:21 JRWR has joined
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1558 2011-07-25 19:35:21 JRWR has joined
1559 2011-07-25 19:35:22 <mtrlt> if x is an 32-bit int
1560 2011-07-25 19:35:24 <cjdelisle> if it pads with 1s (for whatever reason) then the | can be flipped for an & and you get the same.
1561 2011-07-25 19:35:26 <mtrlt> so you can always strip that
1562 2011-07-25 19:35:38 <cjdelisle> hrm
1563 2011-07-25 19:35:57 <cjdelisle> that op runs like 256 times per hash
1564 2011-07-25 19:35:59 <Joric> i mean not 0fffffff but ffffffff, something like an automated type conversion via a meaningless bitwise operation
1565 2011-07-25 19:36:19 <cjdelisle> actually more
1566 2011-07-25 19:36:38 <mtrlt> Joric: might be, but in that case the language sucks ass
1567 2011-07-25 19:36:42 <cjdelisle> rotateright is used really heavily, I assume the cuda compiler optimizes it out
1568 2011-07-25 19:36:54 <cjdelisle> yea, in java ya have to do that crap
1569 2011-07-25 19:36:57 * cjdelisle been there
1570 2011-07-25 19:36:59 JRWR has quit (Client Quit)
1571 2011-07-25 19:37:09 <mtrlt> yea but there's no need to have it in the code.
1572 2011-07-25 19:37:11 <mtrlt> makes it ugly. :P
1573 2011-07-25 19:37:43 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1574 2011-07-25 19:37:44 <cjdelisle> yeap
1575 2011-07-25 19:38:53 erus` has joined
1576 2011-07-25 19:40:58 <prof7bit> in pascal you would just seamlessly drop in some lines of inline assembler if you don't trust the compiler
1577 2011-07-25 19:41:08 <mtrlt> lol
1578 2011-07-25 19:41:46 pimpinganiteasy has joined
1579 2011-07-25 19:41:50 <prof7bit> thats actually a nice feature
1580 2011-07-25 19:42:09 <mtrlt> nope, never used it with c++
1581 2011-07-25 19:42:10 <prof7bit> don't know if this is possible in C
1582 2011-07-25 19:42:11 <mtrlt> and never will
1583 2011-07-25 19:42:16 <mtrlt> it is.
1584 2011-07-25 19:42:34 <upb> we were taught programming in elementary school aswell
1585 2011-07-25 19:42:40 <upb> in turbo pascal
1586 2011-07-25 19:42:43 <mtrlt> lol
1587 2011-07-25 19:42:48 <mtrlt> we weren't ;(
1588 2011-07-25 19:42:57 <cjdelisle> yea you can drop asm into a c program
1589 2011-07-25 19:43:07 <JFK911> turbo pascal is the only reason i remember wordstar editor controls
1590 2011-07-25 19:43:11 <cjdelisle> I forgot how but all the sse stuff uses it
1591 2011-07-25 19:43:13 <mtrlt> dropping asm is like a punch to the face?
1592 2011-07-25 19:43:14 <upb> its a really nice platform-independent way to speed up your programs
1593 2011-07-25 19:43:24 <Joric> all pascal programmers have tiny dicks :=
1594 2011-07-25 19:43:26 <upb> right prof7bit ?
1595 2011-07-25 19:43:39 <TuxBlackEdo> lol Joric
1596 2011-07-25 19:43:45 <TuxBlackEdo> i have a big dick
1597 2011-07-25 19:44:00 blzp has joined
1598 2011-07-25 19:44:11 <prof7bit> ubp, there are ifdefs also
1599 2011-07-25 19:44:12 <Evious> prof7bit, that's nothing dude, every language can drop in random chunks of assembly.
1600 2011-07-25 19:44:37 <Evious> For example: https://github.com/amtal/pyrate/blob/master/python/lib/funcdefs.py
1601 2011-07-25 19:44:39 <mtrlt> if you need to drop asm, you're doing something wrong
1602 2011-07-25 19:44:52 <mtrlt> unless you're working on an OS kernel or something
1603 2011-07-25 19:44:54 <prof7bit> i didn't know the other languages managed to evolve to that point.
1604 2011-07-25 19:45:22 <mtrlt> managed to evolve?
1605 2011-07-25 19:45:27 <mtrlt> dude, take those pascal glasses off
1606 2011-07-25 19:45:33 <mtrlt> >_>
1607 2011-07-25 19:45:50 <prof7bit> lol
1608 2011-07-25 19:46:05 denisx has joined
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1610 2011-07-25 19:46:59 Clipse has joined
1611 2011-07-25 19:46:59 <jeremias> is there any web service/app to check unconfirmed transactions
1612 2011-07-25 19:47:29 <Joric> jeremias, http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1613 2011-07-25 19:47:32 <jeremias> hmm, running bitcoin-client shows unconfirmed transactions?
1614 2011-07-25 19:47:37 <Joric> ^^
1615 2011-07-25 19:47:46 pumpkin has joined
1616 2011-07-25 19:50:01 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
1617 2011-07-25 19:50:04 <Joric> i also asked theymos about this in blockexplorer he told me he has much of code written it will appear sometime in the future
1618 2011-07-25 19:50:19 <lfm> asm is the opposite of platform-independant
1619 2011-07-25 19:50:35 <jeremias> hmm
1620 2011-07-25 19:50:48 <JFK911> lfm: this is why there are cpu's that speak java bytecode now
1621 2011-07-25 19:51:30 <lfm> was a replay to upb
1622 2011-07-25 19:51:37 <lfm> was a reply to upb
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1624 2011-07-25 19:52:24 <JFK911> inline 4lyf
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1626 2011-07-25 19:53:45 <cjdelisle> I have been hearing about java bytecode cpus since forever and I still have not heard of one that is actually fast.
1627 2011-07-25 19:54:20 <Joric> jeremias, number of 'confirmations' is actually a just number of blocks passed, don't know why client shows everything that < 6 blocks as unconfirmed
1628 2011-07-25 19:54:26 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
1629 2011-07-25 19:54:29 <jeremias> any others?
1630 2011-07-25 19:54:40 <lfm> cjdelisle: fast isnt the point usually. if you want fast you get a cpu whos point is it is fast.
1631 2011-07-25 19:54:44 <jeremias> well yeah I want to see "instant" payments
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1633 2011-07-25 19:55:00 <Joric> jeremias, http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1634 2011-07-25 19:55:09 <cjdelisle> If you don't care about speed then why bother hardwarizing java?
1635 2011-07-25 19:55:16 <jeremias> because my friend is going to set up simple bitcoin selling in his store
1636 2011-07-25 19:55:35 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r160 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ (Block.java DownloadListener.java PeerGroup.java): PeerGroup fixes for maxConnections and block timestamp
1637 2011-07-25 19:55:37 <jeremias> Joric: well, that is ok, but not very suitable when we just want to follow one address...
1638 2011-07-25 19:55:42 <lfm> cjdelisle: price or power consumption or size or ... lots of things.
1639 2011-07-25 19:55:49 <cjdelisle> hm
1640 2011-07-25 19:56:16 <jtaylor> lfm: such cpus are expensive, and size is irrelevant for IC's
1641 2011-07-25 19:56:38 Folklore has joined
1642 2011-07-25 19:56:58 <jtaylor> the only point I would see is speed
1643 2011-07-25 19:57:00 <lfm> I have never heard that size is irrelevant.
1644 2011-07-25 19:57:10 <cjdelisle> seems like it'd be cheaper to lock your devs in a room with a book on C.
1645 2011-07-25 19:57:21 <jtaylor> macroscopic size, who cares if a chip ios 2cm or 3cm when the cooler takes up 5
1646 2011-07-25 19:57:59 pierce has quit (Disconnected by services)
1647 2011-07-25 19:58:10 <lfm> I think such beasts would traget embedded apps where you dont run much of a cooler.
1648 2011-07-25 19:58:22 <lfm> target
1649 2011-07-25 19:58:28 <jtaylor> embedded java, probably a niche market
1650 2011-07-25 19:58:51 <jeremias> well, if I want myself to follow bitcoin transactions moving in the network, how it works?
1651 2011-07-25 19:58:55 <lfm> java was originally designed for "set top boxes" IE embedded.
1652 2011-07-25 19:59:02 <Joric> jeremias, well, there's a special query for merchants http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress
1653 2011-07-25 19:59:14 pierce1 has joined
1654 2011-07-25 19:59:30 <cjdelisle> hehe and it ended up on gigantic server iron because that's all that had the ram to store all of those pointers.
1655 2011-07-25 19:59:42 <Joric> not instant, but only needs one block :) up to 10 minutes, realtime wasn't done yet
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1657 2011-07-25 20:00:08 <jtaylor> up to infinity minutes
1658 2011-07-25 20:00:10 <jtaylor> average is 10
1659 2011-07-25 20:00:24 <lfm> there is a whole subculture of j2me (mobile edition) for embedded java
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1662 2011-07-25 20:01:16 <jtaylor> hm yes android userspace is java based isnt it?
1663 2011-07-25 20:01:28 <b4epoche> as long as hash rate is increasing shouldn't average be slightly less than 10 minutes?
1664 2011-07-25 20:01:35 <lfm> ya most phones are I think
1665 2011-07-25 20:01:39 <Joric> i wrote 'flexis' for j2me :) was living off it for 2 years or so
1666 2011-07-25 20:01:58 <lfm> b4epoche: ya but it will vary a lot day to day
1667 2011-07-25 20:02:22 <b4epoche> sure⦠but I wonder what the average actually is
1668 2011-07-25 20:02:30 <b4epoche> over the life of bitcoin
1669 2011-07-25 20:02:45 <jtaylor> 10 minutes, its designed to be so
1670 2011-07-25 20:02:56 <jtaylor> if it deviates the difficulty changes
1671 2011-07-25 20:02:58 <mtrlt> but it's not 10 minutes because hashrate has increased the whole time.
1672 2011-07-25 20:03:09 <lfm> oh, just devide 2 years 7 months by 139000 blocks
1673 2011-07-25 20:03:12 <b4epoche> but hash rate has continually (monotonically?) increased
1674 2011-07-25 20:03:46 <mtrlt> there are 138011 blocks.
1675 2011-07-25 20:03:53 <Joric> how does mybitcoin work? it's merchant service is near instant
1676 2011-07-25 20:04:04 <lfm> well hash rate did go down slightly a couple times but generally it went up ya
1677 2011-07-25 20:04:16 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
1678 2011-07-25 20:04:17 <gribble> 138011
1679 2011-07-25 20:04:20 <lfm> ok
1680 2011-07-25 20:04:44 <jtaylor> which is , surprise ~ 10 minutes
1681 2011-07-25 20:04:47 <b4epoche> Joric: they probably just accept the rish
1682 2011-07-25 20:04:49 <b4epoche> risk
1683 2011-07-25 20:05:15 <b4epoche> jtaylor: how close though? is it indeed less than 10 minutes?
1684 2011-07-25 20:05:28 <jtaylor> should be a bit less
1685 2011-07-25 20:05:49 <jtaylor> got 9.7 with rough numbers
1686 2011-07-25 20:05:49 <lfm> joric they just keep a total for each user. the btc themselves are just in a big single balance for the bank
1687 2011-07-25 20:05:53 <b4epoche> yea, that's what I think too⦠but wonder if it is and how much
1688 2011-07-25 20:06:21 <b4epoche> 9.7 would seem about right...
1689 2011-07-25 20:06:26 <lfm> joric so moveing btc between users is just changing their totals. no bitcoin operations really happen
1690 2011-07-25 20:07:43 <b4epoche> oh, mybitcoin is just a bank?
1691 2011-07-25 20:08:03 <lfm> mtgox does the same thing
1692 2011-07-25 20:08:10 <Joric> i don't care about mybitcoin users
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1694 2011-07-25 20:08:35 <lfm> except mtgox has separate totals for btc and $
1695 2011-07-25 20:09:03 <lfm> joric well, you asked
1696 2011-07-25 20:09:28 <lfm> a merchant is just another user
1697 2011-07-25 20:09:35 <Joric> i have to check how much time it would really take between accepting payment and outgoing transaction
1698 2011-07-25 20:09:51 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1699 2011-07-25 20:10:40 <Joric> i mean, mybitcoin hardly would take ANY risk
1700 2011-07-25 20:11:01 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r161 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerGroup.java: Fix PeerGroup.peers iterator synchronization
1701 2011-07-25 20:11:17 <lfm> wlel it has significant delay when you put btc in.
1702 2011-07-25 20:11:25 <Joric> no
1703 2011-07-25 20:11:42 <Joric> there's none, for merchant service
1704 2011-07-25 20:11:45 <TD> devrandom: the net code needs more unit testing for sure ....
1705 2011-07-25 20:11:55 <Joric> as soon it hits the network it's there
1706 2011-07-25 20:12:38 <lfm> joric ok then they have fancy txn reversal support
1707 2011-07-25 20:12:43 <Joric> maybe it gets frozen for a while i didn't really check
1708 2011-07-25 20:15:02 <lfm> they have to hold at least withdrawals of such amounts
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1734 2011-07-25 21:02:05 <jgarzik> hrm
1735 2011-07-25 21:02:16 <jgarzik> does anybody have a one-paragraph "how it works" explanation for bitcoin?
1736 2011-07-25 21:02:42 <jgarzik> I can write one, but would rather link if a link already exists
1737 2011-07-25 21:03:06 <WakiMiko> "Magic"
1738 2011-07-25 21:03:23 <cjdelisle> Being a noob I can write up one from a non coiner's standpoint..
1739 2011-07-25 21:03:41 <JackRabiit> Okay guys, I need to get a bitcoin loan Whos up for it. Im fully verifyed as DingoRabiit with a good OTC trust, And as JackRabiit in the LHoT with some very credible records http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=search2 Information on the loan here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4946.msg72249#msg72249
1740 2011-07-25 21:05:12 <jrmithdobbs> links to forum == not trustworthy
1741 2011-07-25 21:05:13 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
1742 2011-07-25 21:05:56 <Joric> http://images.forbes.com/media/2011/04/20/0420_gavin-andersen-bitcoin_398.jpg
1743 2011-07-25 21:06:42 <jgarzik> JackRabiit: see #bitcoin-otc
1744 2011-07-25 21:08:02 <JackRabiit> Lol im there
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1748 2011-07-25 21:12:18 <cjdelisle> haha nice image
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1752 2011-07-25 21:14:51 <Joric> why andersen if he's andresen :)
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1760 2011-07-25 21:23:12 <eian> Is the crypto++ library or the openssl library used for sha256() ?
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1763 2011-07-25 21:26:05 <eian> hmm
1764 2011-07-25 21:26:24 Folklore has joined
1765 2011-07-25 21:27:00 <eian> Hmm...apparently sha.h from both openssl and crypto++ are included....
1766 2011-07-25 21:28:52 <eian> Interesting.
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1776 2011-07-25 21:41:06 <AlonzoTG> om
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1781 2011-07-25 21:54:21 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r4eca21..8612e3 / (20 files in 7 dirs): (8 commits)
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1794 2011-07-25 22:12:35 <SerajewelKS> hmm, is it just me or are the values to sendmany required to be expressed as a json number?
1795 2011-07-25 22:12:44 <SerajewelKS> (as opposed to a string)
1796 2011-07-25 22:13:09 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r162 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerGroup.java: Ensure peer is disconnected in PeerGroup
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1798 2011-07-25 22:13:28 <SerajewelKS> i ask because in python, the json-rpc libraries i've used will not format a Decimal object as a number... in fact they will raise an exception if you try to json-format a Decimal.
1799 2011-07-25 22:13:53 <SerajewelKS> and converting it to a string doesn't work, since bitcoind rejects it. casting through float seems to be the only option, and that converts Decimal('10000000.00000001') to 10000000.000000009
1800 2011-07-25 22:14:33 <AlonzoTG> yeah, that's problematical.
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1803 2011-07-25 22:15:03 <AlonzoTG> I think you should just represent it as a 64 bit int of satoros (Iirc)
1804 2011-07-25 22:15:14 <AlonzoTG> and then splice in the decimal place.
1805 2011-07-25 22:15:28 <AlonzoTG> that's the only way to ensure you don't have rounding errors.
1806 2011-07-25 22:15:33 <SerajewelKS> if i do that then i can't use the python json-rpc libraries
1807 2011-07-25 22:15:53 <AlonzoTG> dunno,
1808 2011-07-25 22:15:55 <SerajewelKS> internally, bitcoind uses doubles
1809 2011-07-25 22:16:04 <SerajewelKS> (for json-rpc)
1810 2011-07-25 22:16:06 <SerajewelKS> which is awful
1811 2011-07-25 22:16:08 <AlonzoTG> I'm trying to re-write the daemon.
1812 2011-07-25 22:16:10 <AlonzoTG> !!!
1813 2011-07-25 22:16:16 <AlonzoTG> Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm rewriting it.
1814 2011-07-25 22:16:29 <SerajewelKS> (see AmountFromValue in rpc.cpp)
1815 2011-07-25 22:16:32 <AlonzoTG> My new codebase will be much more supportive of unit testing and have better comments all around.
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1817 2011-07-25 22:17:06 <AlonzoTG> Right now I'm trying to understand class CDB, it appears to be the core of the application.
1818 2011-07-25 22:17:22 <AlonzoTG> that handles all data storage from the all-important wallet file to everything else.
1819 2011-07-25 22:17:52 <SerajewelKS> about all i can do from python is check if (value == Decimal(str(float(value))))
1820 2011-07-25 22:17:59 <SerajewelKS> and reject the transaction if it's false
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1822 2011-07-25 22:18:34 <SerajewelKS> because even if i can get my code to output 10000000.00000001, bitcoind is going to convert it to 10000000.00000000 or 10000000.00000009 when it parses it
1823 2011-07-25 22:19:20 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r567be078e7cb / (9 files in 6 dirs): logger(LOG_BLAA) -> log_blaa()
1824 2011-07-25 22:19:39 <SerajewelKS> the lack of a proper decimal type in json is a bit annoying
1825 2011-07-25 22:20:10 <SerajewelKS> in python we have Decimal and in pgsql we have NUMERIC(16,8)
1826 2011-07-25 22:22:31 <SerajewelKS> so if someone were to send me 10000000.00000001 BTC, would that show up in listtransactions as 10000000.00000009?
1827 2011-07-25 22:22:47 <SerajewelKS> and does anyone else see how horribly bad this is for financial information? :)
1828 2011-07-25 22:23:03 <eian> :P
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1831 2011-07-25 22:26:29 <SerajewelKS> in addition to floats.
1832 2011-07-25 22:26:33 <SerajewelKS> IMO this needs to be fixed really soon. i propose that for all output, amounts be represented as strings, and for all inputs, strings be accepted
1833 2011-07-25 22:26:41 <SerajewelKS> O_o irssi fail?
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1838 2011-07-25 22:34:06 <forrestv> SerajewelKS, or alternatively, represent all amounts in integer satoshis
1839 2011-07-25 22:34:30 <SerajewelKS> forrestv: yes, but that will futz with existing code in bad ways
1840 2011-07-25 22:34:47 <forrestv> what you recommended would too :)
1841 2011-07-25 22:35:17 <SerajewelKS> not if the rpc client can transparently convert strings to numbers
1842 2011-07-25 22:35:28 <SerajewelKS> actually, using ints wouldn't help shit
1843 2011-07-25 22:36:17 <SerajewelKS> not to my understanding anyway
1844 2011-07-25 22:36:36 <SerajewelKS> since json-rpc will still convey it as a float, no?
1845 2011-07-25 22:38:11 <AlonzoTG> But integer satoshis is the One True Way. ;)
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1847 2011-07-25 22:39:07 <SerajewelKS> sure, but IMO they should still be represented as a string
1848 2011-07-25 22:39:20 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * rc6051f1113d8 / (28 files in 10 dirs): net::message:: moved up a namespace to message::
1849 2011-07-25 22:39:31 <SerajewelKS> because json implementations are free to use single-precision floats if they want, to my understanding
1850 2011-07-25 22:42:11 <SerajewelKS> string is the only format you can use to be absolutely sure that no precision is lost
1851 2011-07-25 22:42:55 <SerajewelKS> once the client has the value in a string, they can convert it to fixed-point/int64 representation if they want
1852 2011-07-25 22:43:04 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r163 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): PeerGroup connect/disconnect callback
1853 2011-07-25 22:43:05 <Evious> Strings would be awesome. Using a float intermediate for money is scary.
1854 2011-07-25 22:43:10 <Evious> Especially serious money.
1855 2011-07-25 22:43:23 <SerajewelKS> bitcoin is SRS BZNS
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1857 2011-07-25 22:43:41 <copumpkin> in a certain language I enjoy
1858 2011-07-25 22:43:44 <copumpkin> we have a Fixed type
1859 2011-07-25 22:43:50 <copumpkin> that is fixed-point numbers
1860 2011-07-25 22:44:02 <copumpkin> parametrized by how many decimal digits of precision you want after it
1861 2011-07-25 22:44:05 <SerajewelKS> yup, python has Decimal types too
1862 2011-07-25 22:44:23 <SerajewelKS> and pgsql has NUMERIC(n,y) -- (16,8) corresponds to BTC
1863 2011-07-25 22:44:32 <SerajewelKS> x,y*
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1865 2011-07-25 22:44:51 <copumpkin> The decimal module provides support for decimal floating point arithmetic. It offers several advantages over the float datatype:
1866 2011-07-25 22:44:52 <copumpkin> o.O
1867 2011-07-25 22:44:56 <Namegduf> You can have them in any language, just use an int of appropriate size and multiply by the appropriate power of ten
1868 2011-07-25 22:45:05 <Namegduf> It's not as pretty, though, yeah
1869 2011-07-25 22:45:26 <copumpkin> Namegduf: my point is that the language of which I speak treats them just like any other number
1870 2011-07-25 22:45:28 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: but it's arbitrary-precision
1871 2011-07-25 22:45:45 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: default is 28 digits IIRC
1872 2011-07-25 22:45:48 <copumpkin> arbitrary fixed precision :)
1873 2011-07-25 22:45:55 <SerajewelKS> i never said fixed
1874 2011-07-25 22:45:57 <copumpkin> the certain language of which I speak also has a nice infinite precision
1875 2011-07-25 22:46:13 <Namegduf> Infinite precision is a Bad Idea by default, potentially useful in very limited circumstances.
1876 2011-07-25 22:46:20 <Namegduf> There was a nice rationale as to why Python had it.
1877 2011-07-25 22:46:22 <copumpkin> oh yeah, definitely
1878 2011-07-25 22:46:28 <copumpkin> on reals, that is
1879 2011-07-25 22:46:33 <copumpkin> you get undecidable equality, first of all
1880 2011-07-25 22:46:34 <Namegduf> The authors had previously worked on a language where it was default and things got crazy.
1881 2011-07-25 22:46:37 <copumpkin> and comparisons in general
1882 2011-07-25 22:46:44 <copumpkin> or semidecidable equality, at least
1883 2011-07-25 22:46:46 <Namegduf> Or at least RAM heavy
1884 2011-07-25 22:47:32 <Namegduf> Er, why Python didn't have it.
1885 2011-07-25 22:47:48 <copumpkin> you mean infinite-precision integral type?
1886 2011-07-25 22:47:52 <copumpkin> or decimal?
1887 2011-07-25 22:47:56 <Namegduf> Fractional.
1888 2011-07-25 22:48:02 <copumpkin> I see
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1890 2011-07-25 22:48:21 <copumpkin> if it's represented as a fraction, I don't see anything wrong with it :)
1891 2011-07-25 22:48:26 <Namegduf> Math.
1892 2011-07-25 22:48:34 <copumpkin> ?
1893 2011-07-25 22:48:46 <Namegduf> Fractions get complicated and big very very fast when you start using them in even simple calculations.
1894 2011-07-25 22:49:16 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: in python: Decimal('10000000.00000001') + Decimal('0.00000002') results: Decimal('10000000.00000003')
1895 2011-07-25 22:49:16 <copumpkin> yeah, I guess it depends on your goal
1896 2011-07-25 22:49:18 <Namegduf> Leads to performance bugs which are a PITA to track down.
1897 2011-07-25 22:49:29 <Namegduf> "Why is it handling only one request a second"
1898 2011-07-25 22:49:53 <copumpkin> SerajewelKS: >>> Decimal('10000000.00000001') + Decimal('0.0000000000000000000000000000000002')
1899 2011-07-25 22:49:54 <Namegduf> Useful on occasion, very bad by default.
1900 2011-07-25 22:49:54 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: so it's floating-point with arbitrary precision, but as long as you check that the precision is set at >= 16, then you're fine
1901 2011-07-25 22:50:01 <Namegduf> IMO floats are a bad idea by default, though.
1902 2011-07-25 22:50:13 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: that example is meaningless in the context of this discussion
1903 2011-07-25 22:50:36 <copumpkin> 28 digits is obviously enough, and I didn't doubt that
1904 2011-07-25 22:50:45 <copumpkin> I was saying it was a fixed arbitrary precision number
1905 2011-07-25 22:50:53 <Namegduf> I agree that fixed point is best for this kind of math
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1907 2011-07-25 22:51:15 <SerajewelKS> copumpkin: yes, fixed-precision floating-point
1908 2011-07-25 22:51:24 <Namegduf> Bad terminology, by the way
1909 2011-07-25 22:51:31 <Namegduf> Floating point refers to the point being able to move
1910 2011-07-25 22:51:32 <copumpkin> see, that sounds like an oxymoron
1911 2011-07-25 22:51:40 <Namegduf> And thus variable precision
1912 2011-07-25 22:51:51 <Namegduf> It's just fixed point
1913 2011-07-25 22:51:54 <SerajewelKS> Namegduf: precision has nothing to do with where the point is placed
1914 2011-07-25 22:51:58 <Namegduf> Incorrect.
1915 2011-07-25 22:52:08 <SerajewelKS> Namegduf: floats are fixed-precision floating-point as well
1916 2011-07-25 22:52:21 <Namegduf> No, they're fixed accuracy.
1917 2011-07-25 22:52:25 <Namegduf> You are using the word precision incorrectly.
1918 2011-07-25 22:52:30 <SerajewelKS> Namegduf: the decimal point can move, but that doesn't impact the number of significant digits the type can record
1919 2011-07-25 22:52:37 <Namegduf> That is not precision.
1920 2011-07-25 22:53:01 <Namegduf> Hmm.
1921 2011-07-25 22:53:08 <Namegduf> I withdraw my complaint, I'm apparantly incorrect.
1922 2011-07-25 22:53:24 <SerajewelKS> that's how i learned it in chemistry class anyway :)
1923 2011-07-25 22:53:34 <SerajewelKS> (the meaning of precision)
1924 2011-07-25 22:53:37 <Namegduf> You've correctly shown that the terms you used mean absolutely nothing, used like that.
1925 2011-07-25 22:53:57 <Namegduf> I will henceforth refer to "fixed point".
1926 2011-07-25 22:54:37 <SerajewelKS> they have meaning
1927 2011-07-25 22:54:49 <SerajewelKS> there are variable-precision floating-point structures too
1928 2011-07-25 22:55:08 <SerajewelKS> pgsql's NUMERIC(x,y) type is fixed-precision, fixed-point
1929 2011-07-25 22:55:20 <SerajewelKS> single/double are both fixed-precision, floating-point
1930 2011-07-25 22:56:53 <SerajewelKS> the terms do have very useful meanings ;)
1931 2011-07-25 22:57:18 <SerajewelKS> for example, for computing BTC values all you need is 16 digits of decimal precision; whether it's floating or fixed point doesn't really matter
1932 2011-07-25 22:59:55 karnac has joined
1933 2011-07-25 23:00:29 <SerajewelKS> (of course, if it's fixed point then you need the decimal point fixed in the right place)
1934 2011-07-25 23:02:19 eoss has joined
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1936 2011-07-25 23:04:29 <SerajewelKS> jgarzik: is there a plan to deal with this floating-point stuff?
1937 2011-07-25 23:07:59 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1942 2011-07-25 23:26:02 <prof7bit> i'm just playing around with the bitcointools python script, is there an easy way to make it really *dump* the contents (the keys) of the wallet and not only show me some abbreviated numbers that make no sense?
1943 2011-07-25 23:26:47 <prof7bit> am i missing some command line option or do i have to patch it?
1944 2011-07-25 23:26:57 Optimo has joined
1945 2011-07-25 23:27:04 eastender has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1946 2011-07-25 23:27:05 <prof7bit> or is there another tool to dump the wallet contents?
1947 2011-07-25 23:27:07 <b4epoche_> I think it's a trivial 'patch'
1948 2011-07-25 23:27:48 <prof7bit> i was hoping there was a tool already to do this.
1949 2011-07-25 23:28:37 <prof7bit> i donÃt understand whats the use of the --wallet option if it does nothing useful at all
1950 2011-07-25 23:29:39 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1951 2011-07-25 23:30:02 <prof7bit> i ust want to get my keys out of this proprietrary berkley db nonsense format into some more standard format.
1952 2011-07-25 23:30:23 <wasabi2> I'm not sure bdb can be described as proprietary.
1953 2011-07-25 23:30:43 mtrlt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1954 2011-07-25 23:30:43 <prof7bit> bdb is a joke.
1955 2011-07-25 23:30:53 <wasabi2> On you it seems! Hah!
1956 2011-07-25 23:31:01 mtrlt has joined
1957 2011-07-25 23:32:16 <prof7bit> not only me but i think i am in the wrong channel here. some people here have quite strange understandings of "compatible", "open", "userfriendly", etc.
1958 2011-07-25 23:32:18 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
1959 2011-07-25 23:32:28 <wasabi2> Alrighty then.
1960 2011-07-25 23:34:37 <wasabi2> SerajewelKS: I did mostly finish the .Net miner I was workign on.
1961 2011-07-25 23:35:46 <Marf> cool
1962 2011-07-25 23:35:49 <Marf> how fast is it
1963 2011-07-25 23:35:50 <Marf> ?
1964 2011-07-25 23:35:56 <wasabi2> It's SSE.
1965 2011-07-25 23:36:01 <Marf> ok its slow
1966 2011-07-25 23:36:01 <Marf> ;D
1967 2011-07-25 23:36:03 tower has joined
1968 2011-07-25 23:36:10 <wasabi2> What you asked is also a silly question.
1969 2011-07-25 23:36:17 <Marf> well
1970 2011-07-25 23:36:21 <wasabi2> Which is why I didn't feel like giving it a great answer.
1971 2011-07-25 23:36:21 <Marf> iam a silly person
1972 2011-07-25 23:36:40 Fireball has quit (Quit: ROS is the power.)
1973 2011-07-25 23:36:51 <Marf> but iam customer, iam king
1974 2011-07-25 23:36:55 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1975 2011-07-25 23:38:34 davro has left ("Leaving")
1976 2011-07-25 23:41:20 thefinn93 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1979 2011-07-25 23:44:54 <prof7bit> private key has long runs of FF in it, is this normal?
1980 2011-07-25 23:45:51 <JFK911> for easily guessable keys sure
1981 2011-07-25 23:46:04 vigilyn has joined
1982 2011-07-25 23:46:05 <Zagitta> hey wasabi2! i really like your code :3
1983 2011-07-25 23:46:23 <wasabi2> Cool.
1984 2011-07-25 23:46:29 <wasabi2> I'm fond of it as well.
1985 2011-07-25 23:46:38 <wasabi2> You forked it for something, didn't you?
1986 2011-07-25 23:46:40 <Zagitta> it's really clean, it makes me jealous :P
1987 2011-07-25 23:46:46 <Zagitta> by accident yeah haha
1988 2011-07-25 23:46:47 <wasabi2> I have that talent.
1989 2011-07-25 23:47:12 <prof7bit> these keys were generated by bitcoin
1990 2011-07-25 23:47:29 <Zagitta> git extensions failed at cloning so apperently it forked it
1991 2011-07-25 23:47:41 <wasabi2> heh.
1992 2011-07-25 23:48:47 <prof7bit> so it seems nobody here knows why the private keys in a bitcoin wallet consist of 30% FFFFF
1993 2011-07-25 23:49:31 <BlueMatt> openssl
1994 2011-07-25 23:49:41 <BlueMatt> it has nothing to do with bitcoin, its openssl's encoding format
1995 2011-07-25 23:49:46 <Zagitta> wasabit2: you're kinda like me with being an architecture snob, except you don't fail at it :p
1996 2011-07-25 23:49:53 <BlueMatt> and I dont recall it being mostly 1's, though maybe
1997 2011-07-25 23:50:00 <wasabi2> I'm very smart, I believe.
1998 2011-07-25 23:50:34 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: you should probably post your keys, to be sure
1999 2011-07-25 23:50:37 <BlueMatt> :)
2000 2011-07-25 23:50:44 zapnap has joined
2001 2011-07-25 23:51:02 <prof7bit> i will post you some ff's: fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffefffff
2002 2011-07-25 23:51:03 ujjain has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2003 2011-07-25 23:52:07 <prof7bit> these are original F's from my privkey
2004 2011-07-25 23:52:59 <x6763> prof7bit: the private keys in the bitcoin wallet contain a lot of extra redundant junk...your actual private key is just a 256-bit number in that big mess
2005 2011-07-25 23:53:02 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2006 2011-07-25 23:53:07 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2007 2011-07-25 23:53:17 <Zagitta> prof7bit: except that they're stored in memory on our computers now so technically they're not really the orginal bytes anymore? :P
2008 2011-07-25 23:53:29 Clipse has joined
2009 2011-07-25 23:58:43 <prof7bit> is there some kind of documentation about the database scheme that is used for the wallet available anywhere?
2010 2011-07-25 23:58:57 <SerajewelKS> wasabi2: oh, neat
2011 2011-07-25 23:59:25 * SerajewelKS rages against double-precision some more