1 2011-07-27 00:00:06 <Eliel> ah yes, I tried too high for a while at first too.
2 2011-07-27 00:00:20 <Eliel> then dropped down, perhaps more than necessary so it'd be stable
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4 2011-07-27 00:01:00 <Eliel> well, except for this one 5770 that is going at 960Mhz undervolted.
5 2011-07-27 00:01:25 <Eliel> too bad it won't let me try more clockspeed
6 2011-07-27 00:04:15 <IO-> core Mhz speed?
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8 2011-07-27 00:05:11 <Eliel> yes
9 2011-07-27 00:06:14 <Eliel> I also have this 5850 that would let me go well over 1000 but the core can't handle much more than 850
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27 2011-07-27 00:28:34 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rc69309f / lib/blockchain.js : Removed debug statement. (+9 more commits...) - https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/c69309f4d99ec59f8c26556b224ff4dd30da3a0f https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/c69309f4d99ec59f8c26556b224ff4dd30da3a0f
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29 2011-07-27 00:41:35 <Evious> What advantages does node-bitcoin-p2p have over using JSON-RPC + bitcoind?
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31 2011-07-27 00:45:50 <cjdelisle> I think it's just an implementation of the same but in a different language
32 2011-07-27 00:46:01 <upb> it would be unimaginably more scalable
33 2011-07-27 00:48:43 <cjdelisle> yea, it uses mongodb which, if used right, can be stupid fast.
34 2011-07-27 00:49:00 <upb> haha not because of that :)
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36 2011-07-27 00:49:49 <cjdelisle> That's what jumps out based on my 30 second evaluation. Looks like something for exchanges or merchants.
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38 2011-07-27 00:58:36 <upb> ah mine was becase its based on node-js
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40 2011-07-27 00:59:05 <upb> if nothing else, it should outperform the json-rpc in bitcoind since thats really wtfy
41 2011-07-27 01:00:11 <cjdelisle> I've not seen much for performance stats on node, C(++) *can* be really fast but it's really easy not to be.
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43 2011-07-27 01:03:49 <prof7bit> its not the sped, its the scalability. node is using non-blocking IO and can serve immense numbers of concurrent requests without having hundreds of threads waiting on disk IO
44 2011-07-27 01:03:53 <prof7bit> speed
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69 2011-07-27 01:47:53 <sacarlson> now that I have merge mining working I was thinking of creating a new network that has it's difficulty set to just bellow bitcoins from inception with some modified rules and might as well add the dns features of namecoin at the same time
70 2011-07-27 01:48:08 <BitcoinForNewegg> anyone got an tips on getting a FC SAN at home?
71 2011-07-27 01:48:20 <BitcoinForNewegg> i want 4gig at least
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73 2011-07-27 01:50:43 <sacarlson> I could also take the path of a new proto crypto currency with slightly lower difficulty than namecoin and use the namecoin network as the parent chain to the new child crypto chain
74 2011-07-27 01:50:44 <zeropointo> sacarlson: a fixed dif?
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76 2011-07-27 01:51:06 <sacarlson> zeropointo: fixed dir? what's that?
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78 2011-07-27 01:51:23 <zeropointo> fixed difficulty
79 2011-07-27 01:52:35 <sacarlson> zeropointo: oh no have it run normaly on difficulty just start nbit from inception to numbers close to bitcoin or namecoin
80 2011-07-27 01:52:48 <zeropointo> sacarlson: ic
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82 2011-07-27 01:53:40 <sacarlson> my updated changes for MultiCoin-exp http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24209.msg394289#msg394289 with merged mining now working
83 2011-07-27 01:55:06 <zeropointo> it would be nice if someone come up with a modular way to add protocols to miners. otherwise we could be creating dual, triple, etc miners ad infinitum, every time someone has a good idea like namecoin.
84 2011-07-27 01:55:32 <sacarlson> zeropointo: multicoin kind of does that just by adding configs
85 2011-07-27 01:55:44 <zeropointo> ic
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89 2011-07-27 01:56:20 <sacarlson> zeropointo: but I present you still need to run muli thread for each chain on different ports
90 2011-07-27 01:57:24 <zeropointo> sacarlson: just for net stuff?
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92 2011-07-27 01:57:47 <sacarlson> zeropointo: you lost me there net stuff?
93 2011-07-27 01:58:23 <zeropointo> sorry, splitting my attention. Networking tasks.
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95 2011-07-27 01:59:08 <zeropointo> as opposed to block generation
96 2011-07-27 02:00:25 <zeropointo> i'm a little scetchy on how the dual clients work but i assume they are getting as much work done as if they had the run of the system.
97 2011-07-27 02:00:26 <sacarlson> zeropointo: you have one big mining pool through the miner-proxy distributed to all the different unlimited number of chains
98 2011-07-27 02:02:04 <sacarlson> you still run each client on it's own thread and on it's own set of ports the miner-proxy does the interface to all of them from a single mining pool
99 2011-07-27 02:02:43 <zeropointo> ic
100 2011-07-27 02:03:23 <sacarlson> the point is now you can create a stable secure proto network from inception
101 2011-07-27 02:03:41 <zeropointo> sacarlson: so you are splitting GPU resources between the two?
102 2011-07-27 02:04:11 <sacarlson> zeropointo: sure gpu between two or ten make no difference
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105 2011-07-27 02:06:46 <sacarlson> I can't wait to try a chain of a chain so that you don't even need to get a bitcoin miner to added to a new chain, you just chain to another chain that has already got bitcoin to partisipate
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123 2011-07-27 02:31:10 <sacarlson> I'm not sure but I just had a thought about the posible weakness of merge mining, what if a powerful pool started to mergemine a net and stoped publishing to the world it's results and created the bigiest chain and later at some point released it's big chain and wipes out the transactions from the smaller chain
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125 2011-07-27 02:36:42 <imsaguy> it would have to be larger than the rest of the network
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129 2011-07-27 02:39:49 <aristidesfl1> where miners get the seeds to calculate the SHA-265 hashes?
130 2011-07-27 02:40:08 <forrestv> arima, 'seeds'? the block headers?
131 2011-07-27 02:40:43 <aristidesfl1> forrestv: what are mineres really calculating?
132 2011-07-27 02:40:43 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
133 2011-07-27 02:41:14 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, they hash that structure i linked (parts between version and nonce)
134 2011-07-27 02:41:24 <forrestv> and increment the nonce to change the hash
135 2011-07-27 02:42:13 <aristidesfl1> forrestv: is the nounce reset each new block?
136 2011-07-27 02:43:39 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, yes, not that it matters
137 2011-07-27 02:43:45 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, all the other fields change too
138 2011-07-27 02:43:49 <forrestv> except version
139 2011-07-27 02:45:55 <aristidesfl1> forrestv: is the timestamp variable? I mean the block is only considered created when a hash is found right?
140 2011-07-27 02:46:46 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, the timestamp changes, and yes, only structures with a hash lower than the target (as represented by bits) are considered blocks
141 2011-07-27 02:47:46 <aristidesfl1> so the decimal value doesn't count?
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146 2011-07-27 02:55:20 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, of the timestamp? no
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148 2011-07-27 02:55:57 <aristidesfl1> forrestv: structures with a hash lower than the target (as represented by bits)
149 2011-07-27 02:56:26 <aristidesfl1> I tought you where refering to the the hash itself, not to the header
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151 2011-07-27 02:58:54 <forrestv> aristidesfl1, wait, what?
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161 2011-07-27 03:19:42 <jrmithdobbs> hmmm
162 2011-07-27 03:19:47 <jrmithdobbs> anyone heard from gmaxwell lately
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164 2011-07-27 03:23:14 <nanotube> ;;seen gmaxwell
165 2011-07-27 03:23:14 <gribble> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 9 hours, 4 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <gmaxwell> sipa: what inspired that was someone drafting out a spec api for the required export / offline sign.
166 2011-07-27 03:23:20 <nanotube> about 9 hours ago, yes :)
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168 2011-07-27 03:24:34 <jrmithdobbs> just making sure, ha
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198 2011-07-27 04:31:25 <MaggyO> is genjix's fork still needed for PHP that don't have 64bit ints
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205 2011-07-27 04:36:04 <luke-jr> MaggyO: what PHP doesn't have 64-bit ints?
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209 2011-07-27 04:41:48 <MaggyO> all 32bit ones apparently?
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212 2011-07-27 04:45:45 <MaggyO> i was surprised too, since INT64 support has been in for a while in most compilers
213 2011-07-27 04:45:56 <MaggyO> even on 32bit cores, perhaps its a performance thing
214 2011-07-27 04:46:38 <IO-> whiskey fixes that issue and a bunch of other php issues also
215 2011-07-27 04:46:54 <IO-> addslashes($_REQUEST["
216 2011-07-27 04:46:56 <MaggyO> whiskey the alcoholic drink?
217 2011-07-27 04:46:57 <IO-> whiskey"
218 2011-07-27 04:47:03 <IO-> *hic*
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220 2011-07-27 04:48:49 <jrmithdobbs> whiskey is indeed the only solution to php problems
221 2011-07-27 04:48:57 <jrmithdobbs> whiskey and finding a better job ;p
222 2011-07-27 04:49:27 <MaggyO> bah
223 2011-07-27 04:49:30 <IO-> well if you're paid by the hour and your paid to fix web app security problems php is fantastic
224 2011-07-27 04:49:35 <MaggyO> ill see what happens
225 2011-07-27 04:50:14 <aristidesfl> forrestv: what happens when the same block is solved by 2 different people?
226 2011-07-27 04:51:47 <aristidesfl> what happens when the same block is solved by 2 different people?
227 2011-07-27 04:52:10 <forrestv> aristidesfl, the two blocks are not going to be 'the same'
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229 2011-07-27 04:52:20 <forrestv> they'll be at the same height in the blockchain and will create a fork
230 2011-07-27 04:52:26 <IO-> if that ever happens it's like the internet dividing by zero, we all die
231 2011-07-27 04:52:58 <aristidesfl> IO-: nice thought
232 2011-07-27 04:53:20 <aristidesfl> forrestv: so which block is accepted?
233 2011-07-27 04:53:35 <IO-> its a race
234 2011-07-27 04:53:52 <IO-> which ever fork wins, the other block(s) become invalid
235 2011-07-27 04:54:04 <IO-> thats why you see "we pay for invalids" and what not on pool ads
236 2011-07-27 04:54:19 <IO-> THEN WE ALL DIE
237 2011-07-27 04:54:31 <aristidesfl> but I read somewhere the amount of work counted instead of the time the block was found
238 2011-07-27 04:54:59 <IO-> time is almost random, the work shares submitted doesn't == a block at X work shares
239 2011-07-27 04:55:08 <IO-> you never know when a share you submit might be valid
240 2011-07-27 04:55:35 <IO-> thats why pool with 2Th/s turn out blocks faster, but its still random. you can't count on a block every 29.3 minutes
241 2011-07-27 04:55:48 <IO-> could be 5m, could be 30hr
242 2011-07-27 04:56:01 <aristidesfl> IO-: let's focus on single mining for now
243 2011-07-27 04:56:07 <IO-> you mean solo?
244 2011-07-27 04:56:12 <aristidesfl> solo
245 2011-07-27 04:56:28 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
246 2011-07-27 04:56:31 <IO-> same principal
247 2011-07-27 04:56:38 <IO-> you connect to bitcoind instead of a pool
248 2011-07-27 04:56:39 <IO-> get work
249 2011-07-27 04:56:45 <IO-> submit results
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251 2011-07-27 04:56:57 <IO-> if bitcoind gets a valid block result you get 50 BTC
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253 2011-07-27 04:57:24 <aristidesfl> IO-: I'm not interested in the generated bitcoins
254 2011-07-27 04:57:25 <IO-> so if you run at 10000Mh/s you're more likely to get a valid block more often, but luck is still a factor
255 2011-07-27 04:57:48 <aristidesfl> instead, on how a block is selected instead of other
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257 2011-07-27 04:58:28 <IO-> think of it as a lock you're trying to break. and you have key... lots and lots and lots of keys... you have to keep trying them till you unlock the lock
258 2011-07-27 04:58:34 <IO-> solo or pooled, same thing
259 2011-07-27 04:58:41 <IO-> you have to find the right key.
260 2011-07-27 04:58:43 <nanotube> aristidesfl: blocks get broadcast through the network
261 2011-07-27 04:58:57 <nanotube> a block that is marginally first, has a head start, and reaches more nodes, so more miners start mining on top of it
262 2011-07-27 04:59:17 <nanotube> one of the two eventually gets a valid block built upon it first
263 2011-07-27 04:59:25 <nanotube> and then that one gets selected to be the 'real chain'
264 2011-07-27 04:59:28 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r5f5dbd3f9b30 / (16 files in 8 dirs): OP_CHECKSIG http://tinyurl.com/4xazqnk
265 2011-07-27 04:59:29 <nanotube> and the other one is abandoned.
266 2011-07-27 05:00:35 <aristidesfl> nanotube: so the selected block is the one who gets a new block on top first?
267 2011-07-27 05:00:41 <nanotube> yes
268 2011-07-27 05:01:38 <aristidesfl> when that happens, do miners working on the invalid block, start to mine on the right branch immediately?
269 2011-07-27 05:01:43 <nanotube> yes
270 2011-07-27 05:01:59 <nanotube> well, as soon as the new tip of the block chain is distributed
271 2011-07-27 05:02:04 <nanotube> and they realize that it now is the longest chain
272 2011-07-27 05:02:35 <aristidesfl> nanotube: ^
273 2011-07-27 05:02:42 <nanotube> ?
274 2011-07-27 05:03:11 <aristidesfl> nanotube: how long does a new found block take to propragate?
275 2011-07-27 05:03:35 <nanotube> somewhere on the order of a few seconds
276 2011-07-27 05:03:41 sabalabas has quit (Quit: Leaving)
277 2011-07-27 05:04:12 <nanotube> same as transactions
278 2011-07-27 05:04:34 QueryTom3000 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
279 2011-07-27 05:06:34 <luke-jr> nanotube: I see minutes
280 2011-07-27 05:06:36 <aristidesfl> nanotube: theoretically, I had had really a lot of luck, would be possible at any point to create a new branch and make it the main one, by finding blocks faster than the main branch?
281 2011-07-27 05:06:53 <nanotube> aristidesfl: yes. either a lot of luck, or a lot of hashing power.
282 2011-07-27 05:06:55 <luke-jr> aristidesfl: read the paper
283 2011-07-27 05:07:00 <nanotube> luke-jr: really? that much slower than transactions?
284 2011-07-27 05:07:07 <aristidesfl> luke-jr: which one?
285 2011-07-27 05:07:13 <luke-jr> nanotube: no reason to think transactions are any faster
286 2011-07-27 05:07:18 <nanotube> aristidesfl: the original bitcoin whitepaper
287 2011-07-27 05:07:32 <nanotube> luke-jr: i generally see transactions make it to me within single-digit seconds.
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289 2011-07-27 05:08:24 <aristidesfl> nanotube: you only see transactions when a block is solved.. right?
290 2011-07-27 05:08:37 <nanotube> luke-jr: as soon as someone says "i just sent you bitcoins" bam, i see the 0conf tx in my client almost immediately.
291 2011-07-27 05:08:41 <nanotube> aristidesfl: no.
292 2011-07-27 05:08:46 <aristidesfl> ok I get it
293 2011-07-27 05:08:58 <nanotube> transactions get distributed immediately. otherwise, how would miners know what tx to incorporate into a block?
294 2011-07-27 05:09:06 <aristidesfl> sure
295 2011-07-27 05:10:43 <aristidesfl> what happens when SHA 265 gets cracked?
296 2011-07-27 05:11:20 <nanotube> hopefully that will happen gradually, and bitcoin can switch to a new hash algo
297 2011-07-27 05:12:33 <aristidesfl> nanotube: don't you have to make everyone change at the same time?
298 2011-07-27 05:13:15 <nanotube> no. basically, you'd release a bitcoin client that has the rule of "we switch to newalgo starting from block X" where block X is a few months in the future
299 2011-07-27 05:13:35 <nanotube> then within those few months, "the majority of people" upgrade and are ready to switch seamlessly.
300 2011-07-27 05:13:53 rethaw has joined
301 2011-07-27 05:13:55 <nanotube> hopefully, all that is quite some years in the future still. :)
302 2011-07-27 05:15:27 <aristidesfl> and within those months my money get's stollen..
303 2011-07-27 05:15:41 <nanotube> again, hopefully, the switch happens before sha256 is completely broken.
304 2011-07-27 05:16:15 <nanotube> it is a usual occurrence that crypto algos weaken gradually, as small chinks here and there are discovered.
305 2011-07-27 05:16:24 <nanotube> it is unlikely thas sha256 will be completely useless overnight.
306 2011-07-27 05:16:31 <gmaxwell> A "complete break" of SHA256 of the same kind that any modern well tested hash function has been completely broken wouldn't have enormous upfront consequences, in the way bitcoin uses it.
307 2011-07-27 05:16:43 <aristidesfl> SHA-3 is supposed to get selected in 2012
308 2011-07-27 05:16:46 rethaw has quit (Client Quit)
309 2011-07-27 05:17:13 <gmaxwell> SHA-3 will be less secure than SHA-2 for some time, just on the basis of man hours of effort spent attacking it.
310 2011-07-27 05:17:48 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, it would, if "anyone" can quickly build up alternate chains of really high difficulty, and thereby 'unspend' any arbitrary bitcoin transactions.
311 2011-07-27 05:18:00 <nanotube> which is what a 'complete break' would allow for, no?
312 2011-07-27 05:18:14 <aristidesfl> gmaxwell: true
313 2011-07-27 05:18:30 <nanotube> well, any tx after the last checkpoint hardcoded into the client, maybe. :)
314 2011-07-27 05:18:51 wasabi2 has joined
315 2011-07-27 05:18:55 <luke-jr> nanotube: nah, you can rewrite history with a complete break :p
316 2011-07-27 05:18:56 <forrestv> nanotube, block headers are constrained in many ways - really the only field you can freely change is the nonce
317 2011-07-27 05:19:12 <aristidesfl> nanotube: a complete break would allow the attacker creating transactions as he pleased
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319 2011-07-27 05:19:20 <gmaxwell> nanotube: no, because everyone would start using the same fast-hash for mining.
320 2011-07-27 05:19:20 <aristidesfl> no need to create anew branch
321 2011-07-27 05:20:05 <gmaxwell> nanotube: unless the fast hash threw us out of the diffiulty adjustment range but thats more of a complete break than anything recently has had.
322 2011-07-27 05:20:26 <aristidesfl> with sha256 brewk you would gain access to the private keys
323 2011-07-27 05:20:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: checkpoints prevent rewriting history too far back in time.
324 2011-07-27 05:20:37 <gmaxwell> No, not so.
325 2011-07-27 05:20:42 <aristidesfl> so you could create transactions in the behalf of other people
326 2011-07-27 05:20:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: checkpoints are just SHA256 hashes of a block. if it's broken, you can make that be anything
327 2011-07-27 05:20:56 <gmaxwell> You would not gain any private key access from a sha256 break.
328 2011-07-27 05:21:02 <nanotube> aristidesfl: no, sha256 break won't let you access other people's private keys.
329 2011-07-27 05:21:04 RobinPKR has joined
330 2011-07-27 05:21:23 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you wouldn't need to
331 2011-07-27 05:21:24 <nanotube> luke-jr: indeed, if it's broken enough... yea.
332 2011-07-27 05:21:37 karnac has joined
333 2011-07-27 05:21:37 <luke-jr> you'd just have to make a new private key with a public key matching the SHA256
334 2011-07-27 05:21:42 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: No, you can't. The block header is tightly constrained. Its not unlikely that there aren't many valid block headers that map to a given hash.
335 2011-07-27 05:21:58 <gmaxwell> And, of course, it's not checkpointed at just one point.
336 2011-07-27 05:22:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if it's broken, you don't have to bruteforce
337 2011-07-27 05:22:20 <aristidesfl> nanotube: why? get a transaction signed with their private key and reverse it
338 2011-07-27 05:22:48 <nanotube> aristidesfl: reversing signatures requires breaking of ecdsa, not breaking sha256
339 2011-07-27 05:23:03 <gmaxwell> You don't have to bruteforce what? This is not a block cipher. There has never been a widely analyized hash function broken in a way that would allow that.
340 2011-07-27 05:23:33 <aristidesfl> nanotube: what about the public key, itsn't it related with the private key?
341 2011-07-27 05:23:43 <MaggyO> whats the size of the public key
342 2011-07-27 05:23:51 <nanotube> aristidesfl: yes, the keys are ECDSA.
343 2011-07-27 05:24:04 <gmaxwell> MaggyO: 520 bits.
344 2011-07-27 05:24:08 <nanotube> in order to derive privkey from pubkey, you have to break ecdsa
345 2011-07-27 05:24:16 <aristidesfl> oh
346 2011-07-27 05:24:20 <aristidesfl> ok
347 2011-07-27 05:24:51 <MaggyO> how long will that be secure for
348 2011-07-27 05:24:52 repl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
349 2011-07-27 05:25:46 <gmaxwell> Barring mathmatical or computational breakthrough, forever. Of course breakthroughs happen, but they're hard to predict.
350 2011-07-27 05:25:54 <MaggyO> forever?
351 2011-07-27 05:26:03 <luke-jr> MaggyO: quantum computing breaks all private key crypto
352 2011-07-27 05:26:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thats not true.
353 2011-07-27 05:26:15 <MaggyO> right, but RSA at low bit levels is broken
354 2011-07-27 05:26:18 <gmaxwell> (though it breaks DLP)
355 2011-07-27 05:26:22 <luke-jr> ok, all *used* private key crypto
356 2011-07-27 05:26:31 <MaggyO> youre saying ECDSA will take 100 years of years at moores laws increase?
357 2011-07-27 05:26:32 <gmaxwell> All widely used, yes.
358 2011-07-27 05:26:37 <gmaxwell> MaggyO: yes.
359 2011-07-27 05:26:41 <MaggyO> ok
360 2011-07-27 05:26:48 <forrestv> bitcoin needs to move to lamport signatures :)
361 2011-07-27 05:26:48 <luke-jr> MaggyO: depends on when quantum computing is finished
362 2011-07-27 05:27:23 <gmaxwell> Basically anything with classical strength over 128 bits or more is completely safe against brute force classical computers, because you can't do that many operations on a purely energy basis.
363 2011-07-27 05:27:41 <MaggyO> luke-jr: well hard to know if that will ever happen also
364 2011-07-27 05:27:48 <MaggyO> its like cold fusion, a theory
365 2011-07-27 05:28:04 <aristidesfl> is SHA-2 collision free?
366 2011-07-27 05:28:17 <MaggyO> how could it be
367 2011-07-27 05:28:20 <gmaxwell> (it takes the energy equivalent of ~240megatons of TNT just to increment an optimally efficient classical counter 2^128 times)
368 2011-07-27 05:28:46 <gmaxwell> aristidesfl: no hash function is collision free. Its a logical impossiblity when the input is bigger than the output.
369 2011-07-27 05:28:51 <MaggyO> indeed
370 2011-07-27 05:29:05 <forrestv> pidginhole theorem
371 2011-07-27 05:29:15 <MaggyO> i think its pigeon
372 2011-07-27 05:29:19 <MaggyO> too much IM for you
373 2011-07-27 05:29:34 <nanotube> lol
374 2011-07-27 05:29:36 <gmaxwell> The birds don't care, just don't put more than one into a slot and remember to feed them.
375 2011-07-27 05:29:40 <forrestv> oh, haha, yeah ... i was actually talking to a friend about pidgin earlier
376 2011-07-27 05:30:19 <aristidesfl> gmaxwell: thanks
377 2011-07-27 05:30:49 <aristidesfl> forrestv: are you on pidgin?
378 2011-07-27 05:31:20 <forrestv> aristidesfl, no.
379 2011-07-27 05:31:42 <aristidesfl> irssi?
380 2011-07-27 05:31:57 <gmaxwell> aristidesfl: the concern isn't collisions.. its collisions of the right form being found easily... E.g. if you spend money from address A, and I can find (via an attack on the hash) another txn which spends other money assigned to A and has the same hash, and is a valid transaction, then I can steal the rest of A's money.
381 2011-07-27 05:32:01 <nanotube> looks like xchat :)
382 2011-07-27 05:32:18 <forrestv> xchat. how can i limit the number of connections bitcoin can have? right now there's 130 on my public node and it's bogging things down with testing p2pool..
383 2011-07-27 05:32:36 <nanotube> maxconnections=N
384 2011-07-27 05:32:41 <gmaxwell> As far as I can tell even if bitcoin used MD5 it would still be pratically secure at the moment, because the MD5 attacks are not flexible enough to allow you to do that.
385 2011-07-27 05:33:01 <gmaxwell> (though obviously if bitcoin used md5 we'd be in the process of switching already)
386 2011-07-27 05:33:38 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not so obvious. isn't SHA1 weakened?
387 2011-07-27 05:33:40 yin has joined
388 2011-07-27 05:33:43 <luke-jr> yet git still depends on it
389 2011-07-27 05:33:46 <forrestv> gmaxwell, that may be true for blocks, but with transactions you have a lot less constraints..
390 2011-07-27 05:34:09 <aristidesfl> luke-jr: who want's to attack git repos?
391 2011-07-27 05:34:10 <forrestv> hm, what can be done if you can create transactions with the same hash?
392 2011-07-27 05:34:16 <gmaxwell> hm? sha-1 is not all that tightly related to sha-256.
393 2011-07-27 05:34:30 <yin> when the heck are u geeks going to make something the masses can use?
394 2011-07-27 05:34:37 <gmaxwell> And sha-256 changes the stuff that creates issues for sha-1 (the linear key schedlues)
395 2011-07-27 05:34:44 <forrestv> yin, what trouble did you have?
396 2011-07-27 05:34:59 <yin> just want to get the ball rolling
397 2011-07-27 05:35:04 <yin> wtf
398 2011-07-27 05:35:07 <yin> when?
399 2011-07-27 05:35:22 <aristidesfl> gmaxwell: I didn't undertand this: "he concern isn't collisions.. its collisions of the right form being found easily... E.g. if you spend money from address A, and I can find (via an attack on the hash) another txn which spends other money assigned to A and has the same hash, and is a valid transaction, then I can steal the rest of A's money."
400 2011-07-27 05:35:33 <aristidesfl> don't you need to have the private key?
401 2011-07-27 05:35:35 <gmaxwell> forrestv: IsStandard is an enormous constraint.
402 2011-07-27 05:36:16 <gmaxwell> No, if you can produce a second different txn with the same hash as another one, you can rebind the signature.
403 2011-07-27 05:36:37 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: my point is that git is trusted a lot, yet it isn't moving away from SHA-1
404 2011-07-27 05:36:42 <aristidesfl> gmaxwell: rebind?
405 2011-07-27 05:36:45 <gmaxwell> One nice thing is that there is a work around if this attack becomes a risk: adjust the client to always spend all of the coin available to an address.
406 2011-07-27 05:37:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ah yea, well, SHA-1's weaknesses are far less pratical than MD5's.
407 2011-07-27 05:37:23 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: IsStandard is not a constraint at all, for confirmed transactions
408 2011-07-27 05:37:42 <gmaxwell> But if you're saying bitcoin wouldn't change, I find that doubtful.
409 2011-07-27 05:37:43 repl has joined
410 2011-07-27 05:38:17 <gmaxwell> I suppose you could make a stealing txn, and mine it. So I suppose. The txn still has to be syntatically valid.
411 2011-07-27 05:38:41 <gmaxwell> for MD5 the attacker needs complete suffix control right now I think.
412 2011-07-27 05:39:16 <gmaxwell> They also can't free start to collide an existing hash, so they couldn't do that particular attack.
413 2011-07-27 05:39:50 <gmaxwell> E.g. they could make two txn A,B with the same hash, so long as they could put in a a hundred bytes of crap at the end
414 2011-07-27 05:40:09 <gmaxwell> I put up an MD5 example for someone earlier this week
415 2011-07-27 05:40:51 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/msg1.bin https://people.xiph.org/~greg/msg2.bin
416 2011-07-27 05:41:01 <gmaxwell> (same md5sum)
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426 2011-07-27 06:07:24 <aristidesfl> gmaxwell: what do you mean with rebind the signature?
427 2011-07-27 06:08:37 <gmaxwell> aristidesfl: copy it over. If the content has the same hash then the same signature can be used.
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429 2011-07-27 06:13:09 <MaggyO> does the gui bitcoin do JSON
430 2011-07-27 06:13:32 <gmaxwell> If there are two different txn with the same hash, I wonder which one is the redeemable one
431 2011-07-27 06:17:06 aristidesfl has joined
432 2011-07-27 06:23:34 <MaggyO> i dont understand how the gui bitcoin can be saving config settings without a bitcoin.conf on system
433 2011-07-27 06:30:37 cuddlefish has joined
434 2011-07-27 06:30:44 <cuddlefish> thought you might appreciate this
435 2011-07-27 06:30:45 <cuddlefish> such as raThreads are sub-optimal for a variety of reasons, ce contitions.
436 2011-07-27 06:31:28 DD- has joined
437 2011-07-27 06:35:44 <wumpus> MaggyO: they're saved in the wallet
438 2011-07-27 06:37:25 <lfm> gmaxwell they both should be redemable. the txn input cout field has the hash AND the output number.
439 2011-07-27 06:41:08 RazielZ has joined
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441 2011-07-27 06:49:42 <cuddlefish> http://redd.it/j0xm5
442 2011-07-27 06:49:46 <cuddlefish> i'd mine on that
443 2011-07-27 06:56:50 <copumpkin> only nvidia though
444 2011-07-27 06:56:54 <cuddlefish> yep.
445 2011-07-27 06:57:09 <cuddlefish> I bet you could get them to put an ATI card in there though
446 2011-07-27 06:57:14 <cuddlefish> zareason is cool like that
447 2011-07-27 06:57:18 Akinava is now known as away!~lis@babylon.saf-14.ru|Akinava
448 2011-07-27 06:59:47 <sacarlson> seems I found the first problem created from the new added merge mine to weeds net in the bitcoin-abe abe.py block explorer I now get this error OverflowError: long int too large to convert to int detailed trace see: http://paste.ubuntu.com/652878/
449 2011-07-27 07:00:18 <sacarlson> I'm sure it's minor
450 2011-07-27 07:01:14 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: my gd, a bug? in SOFTWARE?
451 2011-07-27 07:01:37 QueryTom3000 has joined
452 2011-07-27 07:01:38 Backburn has joined
453 2011-07-27 07:02:02 <sacarlson> cuddlefish: it's just that changes in one package can causing problems in the infrastructure
454 2011-07-27 07:02:39 <cuddlefish> sacarlson: Oh, I see
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465 2011-07-27 07:19:29 <MaggyO> is there a fixed transaction fee now with bitcoins?
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470 2011-07-27 07:33:52 <sipa> no
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480 2011-07-27 08:00:45 <MaggyO> seems there is sipa
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482 2011-07-27 08:01:09 <MaggyO> if the amount is low
483 2011-07-27 08:03:28 asuk has joined
484 2011-07-27 08:07:24 <sipa> there are some rules
485 2011-07-27 08:08:09 <sipa> if you have an output less than 0.01, or if the transaction is too large (in bytes), or uses too recent/little inputs, a fee of 0.0005 is enforced by the client
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530 2011-07-27 09:59:59 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt Sleep() takes milliseconds, but GetTime() gives second - sure ThreadCleanWalletPassphrase is correct?
531 2011-07-27 09:59:59 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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556 2011-07-27 11:17:28 <sacarlson> I wonder how hard it would be to make a modification for a proto chain that the nBits would be force changed to a higher value after some block number?
557 2011-07-27 11:17:52 karnac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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559 2011-07-27 11:27:37 <sacarlson> maybe near this line uint256 hashTarget = CBigNum().SetCompact(pblock->nBits).getuint256();
560 2011-07-27 11:29:03 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
561 2011-07-27 11:29:42 <Eliel> sacarlson: can you remind me what was the significance of nBits?
562 2011-07-27 11:30:08 <edcba> nBits is a short form representation of some bignum
563 2011-07-27 11:30:15 <edcba> the difficulty
564 2011-07-27 11:30:35 <sacarlson> Eliel: edcba: yes the difficulty to next target
565 2011-07-27 11:30:43 <diki> ok, question
566 2011-07-27 11:31:07 <diki> what do the nbits have to do when searching for h==0?
567 2011-07-27 11:31:17 <diki> in the 4way algo in cgminer it's used in findnonce.c
568 2011-07-27 11:31:33 <erus`> find nonce :|
569 2011-07-27 11:31:44 <diki> wwwwwwwwhhhhhhhyyyyyyyy?
570 2011-07-27 11:31:53 <diki> phoenix doesnt use that afaik
571 2011-07-27 11:33:14 <sacarlson> diki: I was told it makes it ignore unlikly targets. they put it back in to find difficulties less than 1
572 2011-07-27 11:33:50 <diki> by unlikely targets you mean...>
573 2011-07-27 11:34:05 <sacarlson> diki: sorry unlikly solutions?
574 2011-07-27 11:34:14 <diki> unlikely how?
575 2011-07-27 11:34:18 <diki> hash > target?
576 2011-07-27 11:34:40 <diki> if its hash > target there are no checks like that
577 2011-07-27 11:35:58 <sacarlson> diki: I'm not sure I don't have a full understanding, but I needed a miner that ran well on low difficulty nets like "difficulty" : 0.06249911,
578 2011-07-27 11:36:18 <diki> ooops
579 2011-07-27 11:36:28 <diki> sorry tooootally was wrong when i wrote this -> [14:27:18] <diki> in the 4way algo in cgminer it's used in findnonce.c
580 2011-07-27 11:36:42 <diki> findnonce.c is not the 4way algo, the 4way algo is for the cpu
581 2011-07-27 11:36:45 <diki> nbits arent used there
582 2011-07-27 11:37:53 <sacarlson> diki: I would assume nbits would be used in all miners maybe just renamed to hashTarget
583 2011-07-27 11:38:24 <diki> nope, i searched for they keyword target, but nothing like that
584 2011-07-27 11:38:28 <diki> also for nbits, but nope
585 2011-07-27 11:38:54 <sipa> the getwork protocol sends the target directly
586 2011-07-27 11:39:04 <sipa> the miner doesn't need to look at the nbits inside the block
587 2011-07-27 11:39:12 <diki> cgminer does
588 2011-07-27 11:39:16 <sipa> it shouldn't
589 2011-07-27 11:39:24 <sipa> except for debugging purposes maybe
590 2011-07-27 11:39:37 <diki> nope, it's used inside for some reason
591 2011-07-27 11:39:38 <sipa> to tell you what the difficulty of the block it is mining is
592 2011-07-27 11:40:00 <sipa> if it uses nbits instead of the supplied target, it would be incompatible with pool mining
593 2011-07-27 11:40:14 <diki> how so?
594 2011-07-27 11:40:24 <diki> pools dont check for hash <=> target
595 2011-07-27 11:40:29 <diki> i've tested that myself
596 2011-07-27 11:40:32 <sipa> ?
597 2011-07-27 11:40:46 <sipa> pools always give you a target of 2**224
598 2011-07-27 11:40:53 <diki> doesnt matter
599 2011-07-27 11:40:56 <sipa> at least, those i know of
600 2011-07-27 11:41:03 <diki> cgminer sends whatever h==0 it finds
601 2011-07-27 11:41:12 <sipa> then it doesn't use nbits
602 2011-07-27 11:41:23 <sipa> h==0 is equal to assuming a target of 2**224
603 2011-07-27 11:41:51 karnac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
604 2011-07-27 11:41:52 karnac_ has joined
605 2011-07-27 11:42:01 <diki> sipa, i hate python
606 2011-07-27 11:42:12 <sipa> i don't know python :)
607 2011-07-27 11:42:20 <diki> 2**224 is from python
608 2011-07-27 11:42:33 <diki> the "power of"
609 2011-07-27 11:42:39 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
610 2011-07-27 11:42:51 <sipa> it's used in many places
611 2011-07-27 11:43:00 <sipa> either 2^224 or 2**224
612 2011-07-27 11:43:17 <sipa> are the common notations for the power operator
613 2011-07-27 11:43:19 <denisx> my pool does
614 2011-07-27 11:43:32 <diki> does what?
615 2011-07-27 11:43:51 <denisx> checking for hash <=> target
616 2011-07-27 11:43:52 dr_win has joined
617 2011-07-27 11:43:56 <diki> pushpool?
618 2011-07-27 11:44:05 <denisx> yes, but modified for diff-2
619 2011-07-27 11:44:24 <diki> have you further changed the check_hash function to actually check that?
620 2011-07-27 11:44:32 <denisx> diki: yes
621 2011-07-27 11:45:01 sipa has left ()
622 2011-07-27 11:46:08 <MaggyO> cant believe PHP has 32/64bit ints that differ version to version
623 2011-07-27 11:46:23 <mtrlt> what did you expect of a script language :P
624 2011-07-27 11:46:47 <kinlo> it's true tough, you shouldn't look at php as a programming language, php was only created to quickly create a website
625 2011-07-27 11:47:03 <diki> s/website/dynamic webpage
626 2011-07-27 11:48:40 <MaggyO> that the same script works the same regardless of where its deployed?
627 2011-07-27 11:49:01 <MaggyO> i mean PHP mostly does this, but getting the INT thing wrong is weird
628 2011-07-27 11:49:26 <MaggyO> how hard is it to use INT64 when nearly all the compilers support it? or when you can just tack on a macro to handle it
629 2011-07-27 11:51:03 <MaggyO> json passes a float for the btc amounts
630 2011-07-27 11:51:16 <MaggyO> why would you use float and not string?
631 2011-07-27 11:51:29 <MaggyO> considering float can vary platform to platform
632 2011-07-27 12:01:06 QueryTom3000 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
633 2011-07-27 12:05:13 <MaggyO> seems no one has fixed this issue in the main btc client
634 2011-07-27 12:06:45 <MaggyO> why not just add a getBalanceInt
635 2011-07-27 12:11:55 <TuxBlackEdo> is there any way to use gpg4win without using outlook?
636 2011-07-27 12:12:10 <TuxBlackEdo> i need to send a message
637 2011-07-27 12:12:16 Zagitta has joined
638 2011-07-27 12:12:34 arthurb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
639 2011-07-27 12:15:52 <prof7bit> isn't there enigmail for thunderbird for windows too?
640 2011-07-27 12:23:35 <TuxBlackEdo> i really dont need the integration
641 2011-07-27 12:23:56 <TuxBlackEdo> i just want to send a plain text email with the encrypted data inside it
642 2011-07-27 12:24:03 <TuxBlackEdo> is that possible?
643 2011-07-27 12:24:12 MrTiggr has joined
644 2011-07-27 12:24:29 <TuxBlackEdo> since all the pgp clients i just downloaded (the last 4) they all try to install a plugin for a mail client
645 2011-07-27 12:24:41 <TuxBlackEdo> what if i am using gmail? it's impossible to use pgp?
646 2011-07-27 12:25:03 moa7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
647 2011-07-27 12:26:09 <MrTiggr> not at all ...run thunderbird and access ur gmail that way
648 2011-07-27 12:26:11 ar4s has joined
649 2011-07-27 12:26:14 <MrTiggr> with the Gpg plugin
650 2011-07-27 12:26:17 <MrTiggr> its awsm!
651 2011-07-27 12:26:27 <TuxBlackEdo> oh i dont use gmail, that was an example
652 2011-07-27 12:26:43 <TuxBlackEdo> i use my office's webmail
653 2011-07-27 12:26:44 <MrTiggr> Enigmail for thunderbird
654 2011-07-27 12:26:48 <MrTiggr> aaaa kk
655 2011-07-27 12:27:03 <TuxBlackEdo> i just need to encrypt a piece of text with someones public key
656 2011-07-27 12:27:27 <MrTiggr> got gpg installed ?
657 2011-07-27 12:27:27 <prof7bit> For this purpose on Linux I just use kgpg a little kde app to sign/en-/de-crypt the clipboard. I'm sur there must be something similar for windows too.
658 2011-07-27 12:27:36 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah like 5 different versions
659 2011-07-27 12:27:47 <MrTiggr> drop to cmdline and do it
660 2011-07-27 12:27:54 <MrTiggr> really easy to clearsign
661 2011-07-27 12:28:24 <MrTiggr> http://www.spywarewarrior.com/uiuc/gpg/gpg-com-0.htm
662 2011-07-27 12:29:49 <TuxBlackEdo> gpg2.exe?
663 2011-07-27 12:29:58 <TuxBlackEdo> i literally got 50 exes
664 2011-07-27 12:29:59 <MrTiggr> that shud do
665 2011-07-27 12:30:05 <MrTiggr> just drop to cmd
666 2011-07-27 12:30:08 <MrTiggr> and type gpg
667 2011-07-27 12:30:13 <MrTiggr> see what happens
668 2011-07-27 12:30:26 <MrTiggr> then the cmd u after from there wud be...um...
669 2011-07-27 12:30:46 <TuxBlackEdo> it says "go ahead and type your message"
670 2011-07-27 12:30:56 <prof7bit> you only ned *one* gpg. all the tools can use this
671 2011-07-27 12:31:15 <MrTiggr> yep
672 2011-07-27 12:31:19 <TuxBlackEdo> does that sounds like the right thing for gpg to say?
673 2011-07-27 12:31:21 <MrTiggr> ok prec Ctl-C to escape
674 2011-07-27 12:31:23 <MrTiggr> then
675 2011-07-27 12:31:46 <MrTiggr> gpg --clearsign path\to\doc\dcument.txt
676 2011-07-27 12:31:53 <TuxBlackEdo> i generated my own gpg signature with "kleoparta"
677 2011-07-27 12:32:03 <TuxBlackEdo> and i have the recipients gpg signature
678 2011-07-27 12:32:05 <prof7bit> http://www.gnupg.org/related_software/frontends.html#gui
679 2011-07-27 12:32:07 <MrTiggr> is easy to do with kleo too!
680 2011-07-27 12:32:53 <TuxBlackEdo> ah
681 2011-07-27 12:33:18 <MrTiggr> ok in kleo u will need to import their key
682 2011-07-27 12:33:43 <TuxBlackEdo> i did that "gpg --clearsign path\to\doc\dcument.txt"
683 2011-07-27 12:33:49 <TuxBlackEdo> and it worked
684 2011-07-27 12:33:56 <TuxBlackEdo> it asked for a password that i set earlier
685 2011-07-27 12:33:57 <TuxBlackEdo> sweet
686 2011-07-27 12:33:59 <TuxBlackEdo> thanks
687 2011-07-27 12:34:06 <TuxBlackEdo> i think i got it from here, thank you thank you
688 2011-07-27 12:34:07 <MrTiggr> yah ...that was signing it with YOUR private key for them to decrypt though
689 2011-07-27 12:34:09 <MrTiggr> my bad
690 2011-07-27 12:34:37 <MrTiggr> kewl ...shout me if u need help
691 2011-07-27 12:34:46 <Gekz> in the pants
692 2011-07-27 12:34:54 <MrTiggr> :P
693 2011-07-27 12:36:43 <TuxBlackEdo> oh ok
694 2011-07-27 12:36:50 <TuxBlackEdo> so it screted a pgp signed message
695 2011-07-27 12:37:07 <TuxBlackEdo> the receiver doesnt know my signature or anything
696 2011-07-27 12:37:15 <MrTiggr> yep correct
697 2011-07-27 12:37:27 ar4s has left ()
698 2011-07-27 12:37:28 <TuxBlackEdo> dont i encrypt my message with his public key?
699 2011-07-27 12:37:29 <MrTiggr> they can only decode it if you tell them your PUBLIC KEY
700 2011-07-27 12:37:50 <MrTiggr> NEVER tell anyone UR PASSPHRASE and nevr give out ur PRIVATE KEY
701 2011-07-27 12:38:01 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah but
702 2011-07-27 12:38:09 <TuxBlackEdo> isnt the message supposed to be encrypted
703 2011-07-27 12:38:14 <TuxBlackEdo> it looks like it only signed it
704 2011-07-27 12:38:21 <TuxBlackEdo> and i can read the message plain text
705 2011-07-27 12:38:39 <MrTiggr> you can encrypt it with his PUBLIC KEY and he cand decode it with his PRIVATE key without knowing any of your keys
706 2011-07-27 12:38:47 <TuxBlackEdo> oh ok
707 2011-07-27 12:38:52 <TuxBlackEdo> thats what i want to do
708 2011-07-27 12:39:01 <MrTiggr> and you are correct; that was just signing...can encrypt too
709 2011-07-27 12:39:05 <MrTiggr> ok
710 2011-07-27 12:39:13 <MrTiggr> lets do this in kleopatra then
711 2011-07-27 12:39:19 <MrTiggr> ??ur windoze i take it ?
712 2011-07-27 12:39:31 <TuxBlackEdo> right now it made a file with the "begin pgp signed message" and then the plaintext and then the "begin pgp signature" and some data and then "end"
713 2011-07-27 12:39:36 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah :/
714 2011-07-27 12:39:48 <MrTiggr> ok gimme 5 *brb*
715 2011-07-27 12:40:23 <prof7bit> what does "limited" mean (timestamp in the block message): "A timestamp recording when this block was created (Limited to 2106!)"
716 2011-07-27 12:40:36 <prof7bit> from the wiki
717 2011-07-27 12:40:40 <jtaylor> you want to use gpg --encrypt
718 2011-07-27 12:40:49 <jtaylor> not cleansign
719 2011-07-27 12:40:57 <jtaylor> *clearsign
720 2011-07-27 12:41:59 <jtaylor> prof7bit: its an unsigned 32bit integer timestamp
721 2011-07-27 12:42:08 <jtaylor> 2016 is the highest value it can carr
722 2011-07-27 12:42:14 <jtaylor> 2106
723 2011-07-27 12:42:28 <jtaylor> a signed integer would be 2038, see the unix timestamp problem
724 2011-07-27 12:42:29 <prof7bit> a 32 bit can carry more than 2106
725 2011-07-27 12:42:43 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
726 2011-07-27 12:42:47 <jtaylor> in seconds
727 2011-07-27 12:43:08 <jtaylor> timestamps are seconds from 1.1.1970
728 2011-07-27 12:43:26 <prof7bit> yes. but why does it say loimited to 2106?
729 2011-07-27 12:43:35 <prof7bit> is this a year?
730 2011-07-27 12:43:41 <jtaylor> yes
731 2011-07-27 12:43:54 <prof7bit> wiki text should be improved.
732 2011-07-27 12:44:27 E-sense has quit (Quit: System.exit(0);)
733 2011-07-27 12:44:42 <prof7bit> i was thinking about version numbers, block numbers and everything else, never thought they were refering to the well known 32bit timestamp problem
734 2011-07-27 12:44:48 <jtaylor> see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem#Solutions
735 2011-07-27 12:44:59 <mtrlt> you can improve it yourself :P
736 2011-07-27 12:45:03 <mtrlt> it's a wiki
737 2011-07-27 12:45:29 <prof7bit> only if i understand why the 2038 problem is now asuddenly a 2106 problem
738 2011-07-27 12:45:43 <mtrlt> unsigned int
739 2011-07-27 12:45:45 <jtaylor> the 2038 problem affects signed 32bit integers
740 2011-07-27 12:45:56 <jtaylor> a unsigned integer can represent double as high values
741 2011-07-27 12:46:56 <sacarlson> this must be the function I would want to modify for a proto chain to make the first X blocks nBits easy then get harder unsigned int static GetNextWorkRequired(const CBlockIndex* pindexLast)
742 2011-07-27 12:47:20 <jtaylor> (2038-1970)*2+1970 = 2108 = 2106 if you use exact numbers
743 2011-07-27 12:48:14 <prof7bit> i got it. i never thought anybody would seriously be considering 32 bit numbers even after the year 2038 only to get one more bit instead of ust making it a 64 bit
744 2011-07-27 12:49:09 <jtaylor> its unlikely we will still ahve the same protocol version in 90 years
745 2011-07-27 12:49:50 <mtrlt> well duh because we need to change it :P
746 2011-07-27 12:50:09 abishai has joined
747 2011-07-27 12:50:50 <prof7bit> the version message has a 64 bit timestamp.
748 2011-07-27 12:51:35 minimoose has joined
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750 2011-07-27 12:53:21 <TuxBlackEdo> i tried "gpg --encrypt --recipient 'thereci@what.wut' c:\message.txt
751 2011-07-27 12:53:24 <prof7bit> why not one of these variable integers instead?
752 2011-07-27 12:53:44 <TuxBlackEdo> it says "skipped: no public key"
753 2011-07-27 12:53:58 <jtaylor> do you ahve the public key of the recipient?
754 2011-07-27 12:54:04 <TuxBlackEdo> even though i can see the person with "gpg --listkeys"
755 2011-07-27 12:54:05 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah
756 2011-07-27 12:55:25 <jtaylor> try using the key id
757 2011-07-27 12:56:26 <TuxBlackEdo> it still says "no public key"
758 2011-07-27 12:57:34 <jtaylor> weird
759 2011-07-27 12:57:42 <TuxBlackEdo> yes
760 2011-07-27 12:57:46 maikmerten has joined
761 2011-07-27 12:58:03 molecular has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
762 2011-07-27 12:59:32 <TuxBlackEdo> oh ok
763 2011-07-27 12:59:46 <TuxBlackEdo> i had ' around recipient, it didnt like that
764 2011-07-27 13:01:30 <TuxBlackEdo> ok so now i got a binary file called message.txt.gpg
765 2011-07-27 13:01:39 <TuxBlackEdo> any way to make it base64 or something
766 2011-07-27 13:01:59 redhatzero has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
767 2011-07-27 13:02:16 <jtaylor> base64 file on unix
768 2011-07-27 13:02:23 <jtaylor> windows no idea
769 2011-07-27 13:02:38 soap has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
770 2011-07-27 13:02:49 <jtaylor> hm probably gpg can do it, maybe --armor
771 2011-07-27 13:02:54 QueryTom3000 has joined
772 2011-07-27 13:03:25 <jtaylor> yes armor does it
773 2011-07-27 13:03:39 <TuxBlackEdo> yes
774 2011-07-27 13:03:41 <TuxBlackEdo> awesome
775 2011-07-27 13:04:05 <TuxBlackEdo> exactly what i was looking for
776 2011-07-27 13:04:22 <TuxBlackEdo> so
777 2011-07-27 13:04:27 somuchwin2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
778 2011-07-27 13:04:44 <TuxBlackEdo> will this message be signed with my public key so he can send me an encrypted reply?
779 2011-07-27 13:05:10 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
780 2011-07-27 13:05:35 <jtaylor> add --sign
781 2011-07-27 13:05:36 somuchwin has joined
782 2011-07-27 13:05:56 Happy0 has joined
783 2011-07-27 13:05:59 <jtaylor> but a signature does not include your public key
784 2011-07-27 13:06:06 <jtaylor> it just ensures the message comes from your private key
785 2011-07-27 13:06:38 <TuxBlackEdo> should i include my public key inside the message?
786 2011-07-27 13:06:44 QueryTom3000 has left ()
787 2011-07-27 13:06:47 <TuxBlackEdo> btw thanks a lot for the help
788 2011-07-27 13:07:05 <jtaylor> you can just send it to him or upload it on a keyserver
789 2011-07-27 13:07:12 <jtaylor> public key is no secret information
790 2011-07-27 13:07:26 p0s has joined
791 2011-07-27 13:08:08 <jtaylor> but for the whole system to work you should somehow make sure that the key really belongs to the person you think it does, e.g. meet him and let him give you the fingerprint
792 2011-07-27 13:08:34 soap has joined
793 2011-07-27 13:11:08 <TuxBlackEdo> hm cool
794 2011-07-27 13:11:15 <TuxBlackEdo> thanks for the hep
795 2011-07-27 13:11:17 <TuxBlackEdo> help*
796 2011-07-27 13:12:06 <jtaylor> np
797 2011-07-27 13:12:14 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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799 2011-07-27 13:13:35 <MrTiggr> jtaylor++
800 2011-07-27 13:13:51 <TuxBlackEdo> jtaylor++
801 2011-07-27 13:14:00 <MrTiggr> nice work...sry i didn't get back in time to help u Tux; jt did a great job
802 2011-07-27 13:16:06 <TuxBlackEdo> just to confirm, I put into C:\message.txt "hey whats up this is my public key <pasted public key>" and then I did a "gpg --sign --encrypt --recipient H42A0ADD --armor C:\message.txt" and then i send him the contents of "c:\message.txt.asc" which is just a block of GPG encrypted data (3k worth), does that sound like I did everything right?
803 2011-07-27 13:16:38 <MrTiggr> hehehehe yes
804 2011-07-27 13:16:40 <MrTiggr> but
805 2011-07-27 13:16:40 <TuxBlackEdo> it asks me to put my secret passphrase and then asks me if i am sure that i trust the recipient's public key
806 2011-07-27 13:16:49 <TuxBlackEdo> and makes that file
807 2011-07-27 13:17:01 <MrTiggr> how is he gunna decrypt that without the public key...which you kindly put inside the encrypted message ;)
808 2011-07-27 13:17:13 <MrTiggr> yep sounds like all worked as planned
809 2011-07-27 13:17:17 <jtaylor> he does not need it
810 2011-07-27 13:17:33 <jtaylor> the message is encrypted for the recipients private key
811 2011-07-27 13:17:34 <MrTiggr> is it up on keyserv?
812 2011-07-27 13:17:37 <MrTiggr> aaah
813 2011-07-27 13:17:38 <MrTiggr> sweet
814 2011-07-27 13:17:39 <MrTiggr> kk
815 2011-07-27 13:17:41 <jtaylor> but he can't verify the signature
816 2011-07-27 13:17:46 <MrTiggr> yeh
817 2011-07-27 13:17:46 <cjdelisle> mmm 20k paypal accounts closed, /me is feeling bullish today
818 2011-07-27 13:17:53 <jtaylor> before decrypting it
819 2011-07-27 13:18:08 <TuxBlackEdo> but this is my first message to him
820 2011-07-27 13:18:54 <TuxBlackEdo> you said "17:13 < jtaylor> he does not need it" but how would he reply to my message (encrypted) if he didnt have my public key?
821 2011-07-27 13:19:28 <jtaylor> using your public key he decrypted
822 2011-07-27 13:19:50 <jtaylor> he uses that to encrypt a message which only you can decrypt with your private key
823 2011-07-27 13:19:53 <TuxBlackEdo> oh ok :)
824 2011-07-27 13:21:12 <jtaylor> but the public key does not need to be encrypted, the only problem of publishing it might be spam and people knowing you ahve one
825 2011-07-27 13:22:49 <jtaylor> the advantage is that you can sign all your messages and people can verify it assuming you are integrated in some web of trust
826 2011-07-27 13:24:07 <TuxBlackEdo> there are gpg encrypted spam messages?
827 2011-07-27 13:24:38 <jtaylor> probably not many ^^, but spammers can use keyservers to gather email adresses
828 2011-07-27 13:24:43 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
829 2011-07-27 13:25:18 <jtaylor> small warning, googlemail tends to classify encrypted messages as spam :/
830 2011-07-27 13:25:49 <MrTiggr> jtaylor++
831 2011-07-27 13:25:51 <MrTiggr> TRU DAT!
832 2011-07-27 13:25:59 p0s has joined
833 2011-07-27 13:26:09 <MrTiggr> i use Thunderbird+Enigmail to conext to my gmail and do that tho ;)
834 2011-07-27 13:26:26 <TuxBlackEdo> jtaylor: from the bottom of my heart, thank you for all your help
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850 2011-07-27 13:52:13 again is now known as tower
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852 2011-07-27 14:01:41 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
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854 2011-07-27 14:12:16 <nanotube> <cjdelisle> mmm 20k paypal accounts closed, /me is feeling bullish today <-- wut?
855 2011-07-27 14:12:54 Zyrkon has joined
856 2011-07-27 14:13:00 <nanotube> <jtaylor> small warning, googlemail tends to classify encrypted messages as spam :/ <-- not if you add ----begin pgp message--- to your whitelist filter in the settings :)
857 2011-07-27 14:13:23 <nanotube> TuxBlackEdo: yea, gpg kicks ass. use it wisely. :)
858 2011-07-27 14:13:39 redhatzero has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
859 2011-07-27 14:21:30 Stellar has joined
860 2011-07-27 14:23:02 <copumpkin> feeling bullshittish
861 2011-07-27 14:24:23 <cjdelisle> Well FWIW according to lulzsec, 20k paypal accounts have been so far closed.
862 2011-07-27 14:24:37 <Rabbit67890> for what?
863 2011-07-27 14:25:25 <cjdelisle> It started with the whole wikileaks thing and there were a lot of companies who blocked them.
864 2011-07-27 14:25:46 <cjdelisle> PP didn't help the situation with this: http://www.scmagazine.com.au/News/263634,paypal-cso-calls-for-antisec-hunt.aspx
865 2011-07-27 14:26:11 Silverpike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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868 2011-07-27 14:27:17 <cjdelisle> Then one of the anons who the fbi rounded up turned out to be her: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/internet/fbi-exposes-terrifying-face-anonymous-748293
869 2011-07-27 14:27:57 meatsim has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
870 2011-07-27 14:28:36 <cjdelisle> So all the Anon people are calling for a boycott, I canceled my account, it wasn't doing me any good anyway and PP really has had this coming for a long time.
871 2011-07-27 14:28:56 suriv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
872 2011-07-27 14:29:08 suriv_ has joined
873 2011-07-27 14:29:14 <nanotube> heh i see. nice.
874 2011-07-27 14:30:23 <Rabbit67890> LOOOL
875 2011-07-27 14:30:29 <cjdelisle> Also, my bank account number was in that database and lulzsec is looking in to it. I can sleep better knowing I canceled.
876 2011-07-27 14:31:08 <Rabbit67890> oh f*ck
877 2011-07-27 14:32:08 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
878 2011-07-27 14:35:56 koleg has joined
879 2011-07-27 14:40:00 <UukGoblin> what? lulzsec h4x0r3d paypal?
880 2011-07-27 14:40:45 <cjdelisle> Nope but they are right now sponsering a boycott and giving them a stern look.
881 2011-07-27 14:41:10 <UukGoblin> eek
882 2011-07-27 14:41:12 <UukGoblin> that sucs
883 2011-07-27 14:41:14 <UukGoblin> k
884 2011-07-27 14:41:18 <UukGoblin> I need my paypal :-/
885 2011-07-27 14:42:26 * nanotube waiting for bitcoin to become widespread enough
886 2011-07-27 14:42:47 <UukGoblin> yeah paypal hacked would be awesome
887 2011-07-27 14:42:54 <BlueMatt> nanotube: gonna be a while...have to hit 10% of people before it spreads quickly...and that would take a while
888 2011-07-27 14:43:01 <UukGoblin> all these headlines saying bitcoin's more secure...
889 2011-07-27 14:43:05 <BlueMatt> keep in mind that if bitcoin becomes bit, we still need payment processors
890 2011-07-27 14:43:11 <BlueMatt> (like paypal)
891 2011-07-27 14:43:46 <cjdelisle> I think I'm going to apply for a credit card, it's like pp except that the chargebacks are sane and there's someone I can talk to.
892 2011-07-27 14:44:05 <BlueMatt> you dont have a credit card?
893 2011-07-27 14:44:14 <cjdelisle> nop, just a debit card
894 2011-07-27 14:44:23 <BlueMatt> damn
895 2011-07-27 14:44:36 <nanotube> BlueMatt: well "we" means "people who can't secure their own computers and can't run their own bitcoin node" then yes. :)
896 2011-07-27 14:44:49 <UukGoblin> I bought a small gold bar today and the company didn't accept credit cards, only debit... go figure ;-]
897 2011-07-27 14:45:02 <nanotube> BlueMatt: also, by 10% you're referring to that bit on slashdot the other day about spread of ideas eh? :)
898 2011-07-27 14:45:15 <BlueMatt> nanotube: and merchants who want security, and people who want more security, and, and, and...at that point its like 99.999% of people
899 2011-07-27 14:45:16 <nanotube> UukGoblin: haha yea, gold is like bitcoin - no chargebacks :)
900 2011-07-27 14:45:17 <BlueMatt> nanotube: yea
901 2011-07-27 14:45:27 * cjdelisle takes borrowing and making promises very seriously.
902 2011-07-27 14:45:29 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, meh, outsourcing security is... meh
903 2011-07-27 14:45:41 <nanotube> UukGoblin: it's fine if you know that you really suck at it.
904 2011-07-27 14:45:48 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: but they can provide insurance, not just security
905 2011-07-27 14:45:54 <nanotube> and >90% of people do suck.
906 2011-07-27 14:46:01 <UukGoblin> my gf sucks
907 2011-07-27 14:46:06 <UukGoblin> and she's pretty good at it too
908 2011-07-27 14:46:10 <BlueMatt> nanotube: way more than 90%
909 2011-07-27 14:46:10 <nanotube> heh
910 2011-07-27 14:46:22 <nanotube> BlueMatt: heh ye, well i did say >90 :)
911 2011-07-27 14:46:26 <TD_> can we please keep the level of stupidity here manageable? there is #bitcoin for that kind of stuff
912 2011-07-27 14:46:37 TD_ is now known as TD
913 2011-07-27 14:46:40 <UukGoblin> kk
914 2011-07-27 14:46:55 <nanotube> heh
915 2011-07-27 14:47:15 <nanotube> suddenly silence. :)
916 2011-07-27 14:47:46 <Rabbit67890> or not
917 2011-07-27 14:47:54 <TD> well, set up a payment processor and then there'll be lots of talk about ;)
918 2011-07-27 14:48:10 <TD> or a bitbank
919 2011-07-27 14:48:13 <nanotube> well, there's mtgox and mybitcoin
920 2011-07-27 14:48:19 <nanotube> they are payment processors.
921 2011-07-27 14:48:19 <UukGoblin> I moved the convo to #bitcoin... but no-one followed
922 2011-07-27 14:48:21 <TD> yes.
923 2011-07-27 14:48:26 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
924 2011-07-27 14:48:31 * BlueMatt thinks its time to move bug tracking off of github...its just so terrible
925 2011-07-27 14:48:33 <TD> is mybitcoin still alive ?
926 2011-07-27 14:48:34 <nanotube> no insurance though...
927 2011-07-27 14:48:50 <nanotube> yes, i haven't heard anybody say they're not
928 2011-07-27 14:48:55 <nanotube> though i don't use it myself
929 2011-07-27 14:49:08 <BlueMatt> TD: site is still up and working, but I dont think they have responded to email or anything in a long time now
930 2011-07-27 14:49:13 <BlueMatt> or I havent heard that they are back responding
931 2011-07-27 14:49:16 <TD> yeah
932 2011-07-27 14:49:38 <nanotube> wonder how many btc they're sitting on...
933 2011-07-27 14:51:07 <jeremias> take the bitcoins and run!
934 2011-07-27 14:51:18 * BlueMatt has a feeling they will sooner or later
935 2011-07-27 14:51:27 <BlueMatt> ...or satoshi is running it
936 2011-07-27 14:51:54 <doublec> they use an NZ phone number which is odd
937 2011-07-27 14:52:09 koleg has joined
938 2011-07-27 14:52:20 <iddo> maybe someone here can remove the link to mybitcoin on the defunct clearcoin website?
939 2011-07-27 14:52:52 <jeremias> what would you do if you were satoshi
940 2011-07-27 14:53:16 <jeremias> i heard that he can somehow broadcasat messages through the bitcoin system, i would troll the hell out of it
941 2011-07-27 14:53:18 <BlueMatt> jeremias: go to #bitcoin?
942 2011-07-27 14:53:28 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
943 2011-07-27 14:53:49 suriv_ is now known as suriv
944 2011-07-27 14:53:51 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
945 2011-07-27 14:53:57 <nanotube> iddo: remove the link to one defunct site from another defunct site eh? heh.
946 2011-07-27 14:54:01 <joepie91> [global message] IMPORTANT: If you did not hear about #OpPaypal yet - thousands of people are closing their PayPal accounts out of protest - http://pastebin.com/LAykd1es | JOIN NOW, Call PayPal at +1-888-221-1161 to close your account. Stock dropped 1 billion in the first 15 minutes of trading. Online account-disable page closed. TELL EVERYONE.
947 2011-07-27 14:54:55 <senseles> thats fucking retarded
948 2011-07-27 14:55:35 molecular has joined
949 2011-07-27 14:55:59 <senseles> i doubt that the 1 billion stock drop had anything to do with this
950 2011-07-27 14:56:06 <doublec> paypal doesn't have a publically traded stock
951 2011-07-27 14:56:08 <doublec> how can it drop
952 2011-07-27 14:56:12 <cjdelisle> Meh, they had it coming for a long time. I closed my account because I didn't need it and I can sleep better knowing my bank number isn't in a database which lulzsec is really interested in dumping.
953 2011-07-27 14:56:13 <senseles> ebay does doesnt it?
954 2011-07-27 14:56:20 <senseles> and paypal is owned by ebay
955 2011-07-27 14:56:26 <nanotube> joepie91: paypal is owned by ebay. the entire market has gone down today. ebay has 1.3 billion shares outstanding, and price per share went down by 90 cents or so currently.
956 2011-07-27 14:56:29 <doublec> right, ebay does
957 2011-07-27 14:56:34 <senseles> but my point was going to be
958 2011-07-27 14:56:36 <senseles> ebay sucks
959 2011-07-27 14:56:40 <nanotube> i doubt it has something to do with 20k people closing accounts.
960 2011-07-27 14:56:41 <senseles> so it's no surprise theres a drop
961 2011-07-27 14:56:50 <joepie91> nanotube: the drop is far sharper than that of other stocks
962 2011-07-27 14:57:00 <senseles> i hope ebay sells paypal soon because they're really bringing paypal down
963 2011-07-27 14:57:04 koleg has joined
964 2011-07-27 14:57:07 <joepie91> and especially considering the past few days
965 2011-07-27 14:57:07 koleg has quit (2!~koleg@89.151.191.93|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
966 2011-07-27 14:57:11 koleg has joined
967 2011-07-27 14:57:11 <joepie91> it's a very sudden drop
968 2011-07-27 14:57:59 <nanotube> senseles: if ebay sucks, presumably the market participants have known about that for quite a while. i doubt that today suddenly a bunch of people realized that. :P
969 2011-07-27 14:58:06 <senseles> ya but whats the total capitalization ?
970 2011-07-27 14:58:09 <senseles> you're saying 1 billion
971 2011-07-27 14:58:15 <senseles> but 1 billion to most companies is nothing
972 2011-07-27 14:58:20 * cjdelisle Reason for closing: "Ripping off your customers works great until it doesn't."
973 2011-07-27 14:58:28 <ersi> joepie91: And how would one close his/her PayPal account?
974 2011-07-27 14:58:37 <nanotube> joepie91: 2.8 percent down today. nasdaq overall down by 1.8 or so. now i bet about 20 percent of other stocks on nasdaq are down by more than 2.8
975 2011-07-27 14:59:13 * BlueMatt thinks this is unrelated to bitcoin
976 2011-07-27 14:59:15 <joepie91> ersi: I believe they took down the online closure page - at least on the US version, apparently it still works on the international version
977 2011-07-27 14:59:19 <senseles> market cap for ebay is 42 billion
978 2011-07-27 14:59:20 <senseles> so
979 2011-07-27 14:59:22 <joepie91> if you call the phone number (account support>)
980 2011-07-27 14:59:27 <senseles> you're talking about 2% of their total value
981 2011-07-27 14:59:28 <joepie91> you can close down your account from there
982 2011-07-27 14:59:30 <senseles> go back to sleep now
983 2011-07-27 14:59:37 <TD> i thought this was related to the new withdrawal policies, perhaps?
984 2011-07-27 14:59:56 Rabbit67890_ has joined
985 2011-07-27 15:00:11 <senseles> but you're completely ignoring the fact that it went down pre-market
986 2011-07-27 15:00:15 <senseles> it STARTED down 2%
987 2011-07-27 15:00:17 <joepie91> ah, just hear that it's apparently possible to close down your account online by logging in through an international version like paypal.fr
988 2011-07-27 15:00:19 <senseles> so all of this is just a joke
989 2011-07-27 15:00:26 <senseles> "look our boycott is work". lol.
990 2011-07-27 15:00:28 <joepie91> senseles: the op was running before the stock market was open
991 2011-07-27 15:00:31 <joepie91> so I don't see your point
992 2011-07-27 15:00:38 <ersi> https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:
993 2011-07-27 15:00:38 <ersi> :D
994 2011-07-27 15:00:40 <cjdelisle> I am happy even at the thought that perhaps maybe possibly the chickens are finally coming home to roost for fraudpal.
995 2011-07-27 15:00:42 * BlueMatt thinks this is unrelated to bitcoin
996 2011-07-27 15:00:45 <joepie91> also last time I checked, doomsaying didn't change anything
997 2011-07-27 15:00:55 <senseles> ok so how do you explain the last 5 days of positive growth for ebay?
998 2011-07-27 15:01:05 <senseles> if the boycott was running before today
999 2011-07-27 15:01:11 <joepie91> did I say it was running before today?
1000 2011-07-27 15:01:12 <joepie91> no
1001 2011-07-27 15:01:17 <joepie91> I said it was running BEFORE MARKET WAS OPEN.
1002 2011-07-27 15:01:23 <joepie91> wow, reading is an art.
1003 2011-07-27 15:01:23 <senseles> lol
1004 2011-07-27 15:01:39 * BlueMatt thinks this is unrelated to bitcoin
1005 2011-07-27 15:01:41 <nanotube> TD: probably it's related to "most tech stocks being more volatile to market conditions" :)
1006 2011-07-27 15:01:47 * joepie91 thinks BlueMatt is right.
1007 2011-07-27 15:01:49 <TD> could be
1008 2011-07-27 15:01:50 <nanotube> er, more sensitive
1009 2011-07-27 15:02:06 <senseles> almost every stock is down the same amount as ebay
1010 2011-07-27 15:02:08 <nanotube> apple went down 6%, google 8%...
1011 2011-07-27 15:02:14 <senseles> ASTC -2.7%
1012 2011-07-27 15:02:20 <senseles> NVDA -2.78%
1013 2011-07-27 15:02:26 <senseles> PGH -1.41%
1014 2011-07-27 15:02:29 <TD> ok
1015 2011-07-27 15:02:29 <nanotube> it's just general ph33r ruling the market today
1016 2011-07-27 15:02:31 <TD> makes sense
1017 2011-07-27 15:02:39 <TD> because of the US ?
1018 2011-07-27 15:03:03 <nanotube> yea, talkabout economy and the debt ceiling
1019 2011-07-27 15:03:07 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1020 2011-07-27 15:03:07 Rabbit67890_ is now known as Rabbit67890
1021 2011-07-27 15:03:19 <senseles> i hope it crashes already
1022 2011-07-27 15:03:20 <nanotube> though again... i'm not sure if any /new/ information has made it out to the market today about that.
1023 2011-07-27 15:03:24 <senseles> im all set to profit off the downfall of the US
1024 2011-07-27 15:03:55 <cjdelisle> IMO all of this kind of relats to btc because this fear leads to a bullish market here.
1025 2011-07-27 15:04:14 <nanotube> all the pundits just try to 'fit the news to the markets' :) unless some actual extraordinary event happens, or some actual news is economic data is released... it's all just guesswork
1026 2011-07-27 15:04:22 <iddo> senseles: how? are you buying gold or bitcoins or...?
1027 2011-07-27 15:04:35 copumpkin has joined
1028 2011-07-27 15:04:37 <UukGoblin> it's all not -dev related! ;-P
1029 2011-07-27 15:04:46 <senseles> ive got all sorts of holdings
1030 2011-07-27 15:04:47 DD- has quit ()
1031 2011-07-27 15:04:53 <nanotube> UukGoblin: we're developing the bitcoin economic engine! :)
1032 2011-07-27 15:04:57 <UukGoblin> oic
1033 2011-07-27 15:05:04 <iddo> senseles: including bitcoins?
1034 2011-07-27 15:05:11 <cjdelisle> heh we need a -speculation chan
1035 2011-07-27 15:05:14 <senseles> i think ive got 2 bitcoins
1036 2011-07-27 15:05:18 xelister has joined
1037 2011-07-27 15:05:18 <senseles> im not going to hold my cash there
1038 2011-07-27 15:05:29 * UukGoblin recommends #bitcoin-otc for Off-Topic Chat ;-)
1039 2011-07-27 15:05:29 <iddo> why not?
1040 2011-07-27 15:05:43 <Rabbit67890> lol
1041 2011-07-27 15:05:43 <senseles> i have no use for it
1042 2011-07-27 15:05:49 <cjdelisle> hehe, /me stays out of there
1043 2011-07-27 15:06:03 <iddo> you have use for gold?
1044 2011-07-27 15:06:07 * nanotube stabs UukGoblin
1045 2011-07-27 15:06:08 <nanotube> :)
1046 2011-07-27 15:06:16 <senseles> yep, fall back currency
1047 2011-07-27 15:06:27 <iddo> but not bitcoin ?!
1048 2011-07-27 15:06:32 <senseles> if the US collapses
1049 2011-07-27 15:06:36 <senseles> bitcoin is going to be useless
1050 2011-07-27 15:06:53 <senseles> what percentage of miners are located in the US
1051 2011-07-27 15:06:59 <senseles> 50? 75?
1052 2011-07-27 15:07:11 <xelister> ;;getratings davidk
1053 2011-07-27 15:07:12 <gribble> Error: "getratings" is not a valid command.
1054 2011-07-27 15:07:13 <iddo> what is your point?
1055 2011-07-27 15:07:27 <iddo> about US miners
1056 2011-07-27 15:07:27 <senseles> how is bitcoin going to survive with every exchange, US miner, etc offline
1057 2011-07-27 15:07:30 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1058 2011-07-27 15:07:32 <xelister> ;;getratins davidk
1059 2011-07-27 15:07:33 <gribble> Error: "getratins" is not a valid command.
1060 2011-07-27 15:07:40 <xelister> ;;getrating davidk
1061 2011-07-27 15:07:40 <gribble> Error: This user has not yet been rated. Currently authenticated from hostmask davidk!~bbear@97.0.98.84.rev.sfr.net
1062 2011-07-27 15:07:41 <nanotube> senseles: the 'collapse' of the us won't suddenly destroy the internet and mining hardware. if it does, we've got bigger problems. heh.
1063 2011-07-27 15:07:46 <senseles> because no one is going to be able to afford electric to keep their mining rig running
1064 2011-07-27 15:07:56 <senseles> nanotube: im thinking argentina
1065 2011-07-27 15:08:06 <senseles> or weimar republic
1066 2011-07-27 15:08:22 <nanotube> inflation doesn't make electricity more expensive
1067 2011-07-27 15:08:22 <xelister> nanotube: \o.
1068 2011-07-27 15:08:25 <nanotube> it makes currency cheaper.
1069 2011-07-27 15:08:27 <nanotube> heya xelister :)
1070 2011-07-27 15:08:30 <senseles> correct
1071 2011-07-27 15:08:34 <iddo> senseles: you dont think that the price of bitcoins will rise in terms of dollars?
1072 2011-07-27 15:08:36 <senseles> if your currency is devalued by half
1073 2011-07-27 15:08:37 <cjdelisle> cmon this is silly, you have been listening to too much Alex Jones. That kind of apocyliptic collapse doesn't really happen on that scale.
1074 2011-07-27 15:08:46 <senseles> and 60-70% of your electric supply comes from outside the US
1075 2011-07-27 15:08:49 <nanotube> senseles: well, the price of bitcoins will rise in terms of dollars. so price of electricity /in bitcoins/ should remain stable.
1076 2011-07-27 15:08:53 <xelister> cjdelisle: read your history books?
1077 2011-07-27 15:08:53 ciscoftw_l33t has joined
1078 2011-07-27 15:09:00 <senseles> sure, but who is going to exchange them for you?
1079 2011-07-27 15:09:09 <senseles> as far as im aware all exchanges are inside the US
1080 2011-07-27 15:09:10 <xelister> sacarlson: exchange btc into usd? fuck usd
1081 2011-07-27 15:09:15 <xelister> sacarlson: wrong
1082 2011-07-27 15:09:15 <nanotube> mtgox is not sens
1083 2011-07-27 15:09:16 b4epoche_ has joined
1084 2011-07-27 15:09:16 karnac_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1085 2011-07-27 15:09:21 <senseles> where are they hosted?
1086 2011-07-27 15:09:24 <nanotube> japan
1087 2011-07-27 15:09:27 <xelister> sacarlson: main exchanger, mtgox, left the usa shithole
1088 2011-07-27 15:09:31 <senseles> cool
1089 2011-07-27 15:09:33 <xelister> its a company in japan
1090 2011-07-27 15:09:35 <nanotube> senseles: also, tradehill is not us based.
1091 2011-07-27 15:09:36 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1092 2011-07-27 15:09:41 <senseles> where are they at?
1093 2011-07-27 15:09:42 <xelister> fuck usa \o/
1094 2011-07-27 15:09:48 <nanotube> senseles: chile, presumably.
1095 2011-07-27 15:09:56 karnac has joined
1096 2011-07-27 15:10:19 <senseles> with argentina though
1097 2011-07-27 15:10:19 <nanotube> so, let's just say that our exchange infrastructure is reasonably geographically diversified. :)
1098 2011-07-27 15:10:20 <iddo> senseles: the miners validate the network according to currect difficulty, the difficulty self-adjusts, i'm not sure what was your point on US miners
1099 2011-07-27 15:10:33 <senseles> they went to bed and woke up the next morning with their currency worth 0.0001% of what it was when they went to sleep
1100 2011-07-27 15:10:36 <prof7bit> senseles: the wold consists of more than the US only.
1101 2011-07-27 15:11:00 <senseles> really?
1102 2011-07-27 15:11:01 <prof7bit> there exists an outside world
1103 2011-07-27 15:11:04 <prof7bit> yes
1104 2011-07-27 15:11:05 <senseles> i thought the philippines where i live was america
1105 2011-07-27 15:11:16 <senseles> no wonder they speak a weird language
1106 2011-07-27 15:11:22 <senseles> i thought my brain was just fucked up
1107 2011-07-27 15:11:26 WakiMiko has joined
1108 2011-07-27 15:11:42 <senseles> thanks for opening my eyes !
1109 2011-07-27 15:11:52 <prof7bit> you're welcome ;-)
1110 2011-07-27 15:12:00 <b4epoche_> senseles: careful or we might invade
1111 2011-07-27 15:12:04 <senseles> please do
1112 2011-07-27 15:12:07 <senseles> this country needs help
1113 2011-07-27 15:12:18 <senseles> plus, im not filipino
1114 2011-07-27 15:12:19 <senseles> im american
1115 2011-07-27 15:12:20 karnac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1116 2011-07-27 15:12:21 <Optimo> loving this stability ;p
1117 2011-07-27 15:12:34 karnac has joined
1118 2011-07-27 15:12:36 glassresistor has joined
1119 2011-07-27 15:12:51 <nanotube> senseles: well, that's why you don't hold gobs of fiat currency. even if it doesn't inflate by hundreds or thousands of percent... it does inflate.
1120 2011-07-27 15:13:04 Gekz has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1121 2011-07-27 15:13:06 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.152.93|Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1122 2011-07-27 15:13:18 <senseles> an economy cant function with such a rapid devaluation
1123 2011-07-27 15:13:19 Gekz has joined
1124 2011-07-27 15:13:19 Gekz has quit (Changing host)
1125 2011-07-27 15:13:19 Gekz has joined
1126 2011-07-27 15:13:20 <b4epoche_> US collapsing? who even brought that up?
1127 2011-07-27 15:13:39 <senseles> look at zimbabwae
1128 2011-07-27 15:13:54 <Optimo> famine
1129 2011-07-27 15:13:58 <iddo> senseles: why you dont care about advantages of bitcoin over gold? you can send bitcoin easily to someone in another country, and more anonymously so you dont need to comply with gov regulations (US gov can ban gold, but not bitcoin)
1130 2011-07-27 15:14:13 <Optimo> bitcoin makes donating more accueate (hopefully)
1131 2011-07-27 15:14:27 <senseles> us gov wont take gold from its citizens again
1132 2011-07-27 15:15:08 <iddo> they can impose tax on ppl dealing with gold
1133 2011-07-27 15:15:08 <Optimo> 'the new deal'
1134 2011-07-27 15:15:12 <b4epoche_> honestly, gold is pretty much a useless commodity anymore...
1135 2011-07-27 15:15:18 <senseles> there already is a tax, its called business tax
1136 2011-07-27 15:15:23 <senseles> sales tax
1137 2011-07-27 15:15:24 <cjdelisle> I can see your fear but really, the bankers are smarter than you think. In 2007 I thought US collapse was iminent, now I am 4 years older and wizer. It just won't happen like zimbabwe or argentina.
1138 2011-07-27 15:15:33 <senseles> just because you're dealing with another currency doesnt mean those things don't exist
1139 2011-07-27 15:15:41 <Optimo> and what does this have to do with code writing ?;p
1140 2011-07-27 15:15:55 <b4epoche_> anybody who thinks the US is going to 'collapse' is either ignorant or naive or young
1141 2011-07-27 15:15:58 GMP has joined
1142 2011-07-27 15:16:02 <prof7bit> nobody can (effectively) ban gold. they can *say* it is banned but thats everything they can do.
1143 2011-07-27 15:16:13 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1144 2011-07-27 15:16:22 <mtrlt> nobody can make laws, they just say it's the law!
1145 2011-07-27 15:16:27 <iddo> prof7bit: s/gold/bitcoin ? :)
1146 2011-07-27 15:16:32 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1147 2011-07-27 15:16:40 <senseles> anyone who thinks the US couldn't collapse has been living in their secluded little corner of the world too long
1148 2011-07-27 15:16:40 <erus`> daily troll from prof7bit
1149 2011-07-27 15:16:42 <prof7bit> the same applies to bitcoiuns
1150 2011-07-27 15:16:45 <prof7bit> -u
1151 2011-07-27 15:16:56 <prof7bit> erus`: whats your problem?
1152 2011-07-27 15:17:03 <erus`> im just kidding :)
1153 2011-07-27 15:17:06 Mr_Tiggr has joined
1154 2011-07-27 15:17:11 <erus`> its a running gag now
1155 2011-07-27 15:17:11 <senseles> that is the same mentality as bear sterns
1156 2011-07-27 15:17:25 <senseles> "its too big to collapse, they wont fail, they've been here for 100 years!"
1157 2011-07-27 15:17:31 <Optimo> my goodness the hashrate burns my eyes
1158 2011-07-27 15:17:35 <b4epoche> senseles: maybe you've been living in Philippines too long...
1159 2011-07-27 15:17:49 <cjdelisle> senseles: in 4 more years you'll know exactly what I'm saying to you now.
1160 2011-07-27 15:17:51 <b4epoche> senseles: how is this 'collapse' going to happen and when?
1161 2011-07-27 15:17:59 <Optimo> ;;bc,stats
1162 2011-07-27 15:18:01 <senseles> it already has
1163 2011-07-27 15:18:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 138332 | Current Difficulty: 1690906.2047244 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 771 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 17 hours, 56 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1868637.08766574
1164 2011-07-27 15:18:10 <senseles> compare the price of basic services and commodities
1165 2011-07-27 15:18:11 <b4epoche> if you're talking centuries, sure, it could happen
1166 2011-07-27 15:18:12 <TD> BlueMatt: which miniupnp version do I need, for mac compiling?
1167 2011-07-27 15:18:14 <senseles> food, water, electric, etc
1168 2011-07-27 15:18:19 * TD hasn't recompiled bitcoin for a while
1169 2011-07-27 15:18:20 <senseles> compare the rates from 1990, 1995, 2000, 2005, 2010
1170 2011-07-27 15:18:26 <Optimo> oh that's why.. diff coming up soon
1171 2011-07-27 15:18:28 <TD> i'm getting too few arguments to function âUPNPDev* upnpDiscover
1172 2011-07-27 15:18:28 <MaggyO> the real collapse senseles, is when the resources drain up
1173 2011-07-27 15:18:36 <MaggyO> until then, it can be restarted
1174 2011-07-27 15:18:51 <senseles> really, you think if the USD collapses due to inflation
1175 2011-07-27 15:18:56 <senseles> we're just going to start a new currency
1176 2011-07-27 15:19:01 <Optimo> we can just steal all the holdings from our billionaires ;p
1177 2011-07-27 15:19:03 <senseles> and everything is honky dory again?
1178 2011-07-27 15:19:15 <senseles> optimo: most of those have already left the country
1179 2011-07-27 15:19:20 <TD> ah, 1.5
1180 2011-07-27 15:19:23 <iddo> senseles: can you elaborate why bitcoin isn't a good investment assuming that USD devalues, i didn't understand your argument on US miners
1181 2011-07-27 15:19:30 MrTiggr has quit (Disconnected by services)
1182 2011-07-27 15:19:41 <Optimo> should go do this in #bitcoin-politics
1183 2011-07-27 15:19:44 * b4epoche wonders why he is debating things with someone known as senseles
1184 2011-07-27 15:19:49 <cjdelisle> heh
1185 2011-07-27 15:19:54 <BlueMatt> TD: 1.5
1186 2011-07-27 15:20:02 <senseles> well whatever, dont debate them then
1187 2011-07-27 15:20:02 Mr_Tiggr is now known as MrTiggr
1188 2011-07-27 15:20:05 <BlueMatt> TD: IIRC the macports one is right
1189 2011-07-27 15:20:17 <Optimo> debate them, but in another room
1190 2011-07-27 15:20:17 <senseles> history doesnt exist, you're right im ring
1191 2011-07-27 15:20:26 <Optimo> I'm wong
1192 2011-07-27 15:20:26 <senseles> wrong*
1193 2011-07-27 15:21:09 <senseles> just let me know when bread hits 5.99 a loaf and everyone is still making 30k a year
1194 2011-07-27 15:21:17 <senseles> (your "average" people at least)
1195 2011-07-27 15:21:48 <iddo> couldnt you buy bread for 0.000001 BTC then? :)
1196 2011-07-27 15:21:55 <senseles> how you don't have internet
1197 2011-07-27 15:22:16 <Optimo> everyone I know has internet and is unexmployed
1198 2011-07-27 15:22:17 <Optimo> lol
1199 2011-07-27 15:22:21 <iddo> oh you think the internet will stop existing?
1200 2011-07-27 15:22:32 <Optimo> every mcdonalds has free wifi
1201 2011-07-27 15:22:32 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1202 2011-07-27 15:22:35 <senseles> i think people will decide to buy bread instead of paying for internet
1203 2011-07-27 15:22:43 <b4epoche> and $1 burgers
1204 2011-07-27 15:22:47 <Optimo> or get free internet while buying bread
1205 2011-07-27 15:22:49 <senseles> Optimo: going to move your mining rigs there?
1206 2011-07-27 15:22:56 <TD> BlueMatt: i wonder if it'd make sense to commit miniupnp as part of the source tree
1207 2011-07-27 15:22:57 <Optimo> I don't mine
1208 2011-07-27 15:23:01 <Optimo> this is a dev chat
1209 2011-07-27 15:23:06 <b4epoche> mine from McD's parking lot!
1210 2011-07-27 15:23:24 <Optimo> senseles, not everyone is here trying to accumulate a hoard of coins stash
1211 2011-07-27 15:23:30 <Optimo> I just want to build the usefulness
1212 2011-07-27 15:23:36 senseles has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1213 2011-07-27 15:23:40 <prof7bit> and electricity comes out of every wall socket nowadays. So there is absolutely no need for nuclear power plants anymore too.
1214 2011-07-27 15:23:43 senseles_ has joined
1215 2011-07-27 15:24:03 <erus`> :|
1216 2011-07-27 15:24:07 <senseles_> optimo, going to move your mining rigs to mcdonalds?
1217 2011-07-27 15:24:14 <Optimo> I don't mine
1218 2011-07-27 15:24:29 <Rabbit67890> lol
1219 2011-07-27 15:24:36 <senseles_> then how are you going to make BTC to exist in this bitcoin economy after USD is super inflated?
1220 2011-07-27 15:24:43 <BlueMatt> TD: no, its really a terrible idea, when miniupnp gets updated...as it stands we have too much, if it werent because we modified the json library we used, and we only use a fraction of cryptopp (which I still think should be removed) those shouldnt be in there
1221 2011-07-27 15:24:46 <senseles_> magicka?
1222 2011-07-27 15:24:56 <Optimo> trade my dollars for coins
1223 2011-07-27 15:25:16 <TD> having them in-tree means only one person needs to think about what the right version to use is
1224 2011-07-27 15:25:24 <senseles_> ok so you trade 5.99 for bitcoins you now have enough bitcoins to buy 1 load of bread
1225 2011-07-27 15:25:25 <TD> otherwise everyone building has to ensure they keep up to date
1226 2011-07-27 15:25:33 <BlueMatt> TD: currently, you just use the latest stable
1227 2011-07-27 15:25:40 <TD> apparently not
1228 2011-07-27 15:25:41 <Optimo> senseles_ ok
1229 2011-07-27 15:25:42 <BlueMatt> TD: we do the same for wx, boost et
1230 2011-07-27 15:25:42 <BlueMatt> c
1231 2011-07-27 15:25:44 <TD> i tried 1.5 as well, same thing
1232 2011-07-27 15:25:54 <TD> trying the macports now
1233 2011-07-27 15:25:55 <BlueMatt> TD: 1.5 works, 1.5.XXXXXXX does not
1234 2011-07-27 15:25:58 <TD> ah
1235 2011-07-27 15:25:59 <BlueMatt> XXXXXXXXX being a date
1236 2011-07-27 15:26:03 <Optimo> bread for coins seems like a good way to circulate btc
1237 2011-07-27 15:26:07 <BlueMatt> aka unstable nightly branch afaict
1238 2011-07-27 15:26:31 <senseles_> heh
1239 2011-07-27 15:26:39 <senseles_> you completely missed the point but whatever
1240 2011-07-27 15:27:08 <TD> ok, let me try that
1241 2011-07-27 15:27:34 <Optimo> senseles_, at least the people here have the where-with-all to consider their own finances. you shoudl go preach to the people that have no money-managing skills
1242 2011-07-27 15:27:59 <senseles_> wtf are you on
1243 2011-07-27 15:28:04 <Optimo> we are all at least dabbling in diversification
1244 2011-07-27 15:28:05 <senseles_> we're talking about inflation and currency conversion
1245 2011-07-27 15:28:14 Joric has joined
1246 2011-07-27 15:28:36 <senseles_> managing finances is irrelevant
1247 2011-07-27 15:28:38 <nanotube> anyway, maybe we should leave this channel for actual development-related talk. :) there are people actually trying to work here.
1248 2011-07-27 15:28:45 <Optimo> conversion won't matter once I hold no dollars
1249 2011-07-27 15:29:01 <Optimo> well, it will matter to bread suppliers perhaps
1250 2011-07-27 15:29:06 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1251 2011-07-27 15:29:06 <senseles_> you're just saying intentionally stupid shit to try to egg me on or what?
1252 2011-07-27 15:29:12 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1253 2011-07-27 15:29:19 <Optimo> I was about to ask you the same
1254 2011-07-27 15:29:23 TheAncientGoat has joined
1255 2011-07-27 15:29:24 <senseles_> heh
1256 2011-07-27 15:30:32 <cjdelisle> http://pastebay.com/133717
1257 2011-07-27 15:30:39 <cjdelisle> did that the other night
1258 2011-07-27 15:31:31 <cjdelisle> and yes it works
1259 2011-07-27 15:31:32 Kolky has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1260 2011-07-27 15:31:35 <diki> when ntime is rolled by the client, is it by seconds, minutes or what??
1261 2011-07-27 15:31:52 amiller has joined
1262 2011-07-27 15:32:19 <Optimo> in serious news., apaprently dwolla has chargebacks now
1263 2011-07-27 15:32:21 <nanotube> nime is unixtime, in seconds since epoch
1264 2011-07-27 15:32:41 <Joric> cjdelisle, is it faster than rpcminer-cuda?
1265 2011-07-27 15:32:42 <pwrcycle> nanotube yes.
1266 2011-07-27 15:33:00 <diki> what's the max you can roll it?
1267 2011-07-27 15:33:00 <nanotube> pwrcycle: yes what?
1268 2011-07-27 15:33:14 <pwrcycle> nanotube yes, unixtime is in seconds since epoch
1269 2011-07-27 15:33:22 <nanotube> ah.. well i knew that, that wasn't a question :)
1270 2011-07-27 15:33:25 Kolky has joined
1271 2011-07-27 15:33:26 <cjdelisle> Joric: it seems to be a little bit faster, it's modified from puddinpop's rpcminer-cuda and it's definitely simplified.
1272 2011-07-27 15:33:59 <cjdelisle> I was doing around 60-61k and after the mods I was doing 61-62k, still really hard to tell
1273 2011-07-27 15:34:09 <diki> isnt the cuda miner closed source?
1274 2011-07-27 15:34:21 Rabbit67890_ has joined
1275 2011-07-27 15:34:23 <cjdelisle> not this one
1276 2011-07-27 15:34:42 <diki> what's the max you can roll ntime?
1277 2011-07-27 15:34:50 <diki> someone told me it was 90 minutes
1278 2011-07-27 15:34:51 <diki> but...
1279 2011-07-27 15:34:57 <diki> kind of unlikely
1280 2011-07-27 15:35:03 <Joric> sadly i was getting about 20k with cuda and 25 with poclbm-opencl decided cuda doesn't worth it
1281 2011-07-27 15:35:18 <Joric> *9800 gt
1282 2011-07-27 15:35:28 <cjdelisle> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=2444.0 <-- it's this one
1283 2011-07-27 15:35:42 <cjdelisle> yea, all of those optimizations can be ported to opencl trivially
1284 2011-07-27 15:36:02 <b4epoche> okay I've been asked to give a TEDxPSU talk on bitcoin⦠apparently the "committee" is very interested
1285 2011-07-27 15:36:15 krekbwoy has joined
1286 2011-07-27 15:36:18 <cjdelisle> interestingly I was able to cut the memory requirement for the work array by 75%
1287 2011-07-27 15:36:31 <Optimo> b4epoche very cool
1288 2011-07-27 15:36:36 <Optimo> I can help you prepare perhaps
1289 2011-07-27 15:36:50 <b4epoche> Optimo: that's why I brought it up
1290 2011-07-27 15:36:55 <prof7bit> diki: why do you want to roll it? you can count it until your integer runs out of bits. Use a 64 bit int to have it working until the end of time.
1291 2011-07-27 15:37:07 <b4epoche> I don't necessarily feel knowledgable enough
1292 2011-07-27 15:37:27 <Optimo> b4epoche, and you get some clout .. what else?
1293 2011-07-27 15:37:34 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: do you mean that the work array was 64 uints and now it is 16?
1294 2011-07-27 15:37:56 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: because if you do that on opencl, on sdk 2.4 it gets like 3% slower :p
1295 2011-07-27 15:38:17 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1296 2011-07-27 15:38:17 Rabbit67890_ is now known as Rabbit67890
1297 2011-07-27 15:38:18 <b4epoche> Optimo: ?? clout?
1298 2011-07-27 15:38:25 <Optimo> I almost feel like any presentation on btc has to be absolutely cutting edge
1299 2011-07-27 15:38:41 <Optimo> what else would you gain by taking on this task?
1300 2011-07-27 15:38:44 <cjdelisle> mtrlt: interesting, do you know why that is? usually saving memory is a good thing
1301 2011-07-27 15:39:00 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: most likely a compiler bug/feature
1302 2011-07-27 15:39:06 <mtrlt> cjdelisle: because on 2.1 there is no speed difference.
1303 2011-07-27 15:39:12 <Optimo> whatever happend with gavin and the cia? (did they scopp him up ;p)
1304 2011-07-27 15:39:12 <b4epoche> Optimo: nothing really⦠but I'm also not too interested in clout
1305 2011-07-27 15:39:38 <nanotube> b4epoche: well if you have any questions, feel free to ask here :)
1306 2011-07-27 15:39:44 Mr_Tiggr has joined
1307 2011-07-27 15:39:58 <b4epoche> Gavin fled to AU
1308 2011-07-27 15:40:12 <nanotube> also, feel free to take a look at other people's talks on bitcoin (mostly gavin's i guess hehe) and see where they can use some improvement.
1309 2011-07-27 15:40:55 minimoose has joined
1310 2011-07-27 15:41:01 <Optimo> you could just read this aloud lol http://anonymity-in-bitcoin.blogspot.com/2011/07/bitcoin-is-not-anonymous.html
1311 2011-07-27 15:41:06 <Joric> i gave up on glsl miner, you need sm4 to get rid of floats my laptop just doesn't support that
1312 2011-07-27 15:41:10 <b4epoche> nanotube: yea, is there some repo of bitcoin propaganda?
1313 2011-07-27 15:41:22 <Eliel> b4epoche: sounds great (the invitation to give a TEDxPSU talk). How would you feel about doing a completely public preparation?
1314 2011-07-27 15:41:36 <Joric> and with floats i'm getting very heavy cpu load probably it's emulated (gma x3100)
1315 2011-07-27 15:41:42 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1316 2011-07-27 15:42:01 <b4epoche> public preparation? that's fine with me.
1317 2011-07-27 15:42:13 <nanotube> b4epoche: haha well... not that i know of. but you can find gavin's 3-minite talk video, and gavin's cia presentation in pdf
1318 2011-07-27 15:42:16 <b4epoche> maybe I can use IRC during the presentation too
1319 2011-07-27 15:42:19 <TD> oh dear
1320 2011-07-27 15:42:19 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1321 2011-07-27 15:42:24 <Eliel> there might be nice ideas out there.
1322 2011-07-27 15:42:25 <TD> bitcoin crashed whilst encrypting a test wallet
1323 2011-07-27 15:42:45 <BlueMatt> thats not good
1324 2011-07-27 15:42:55 <TD> nope. let me see if I can recover it
1325 2011-07-27 15:43:13 <Eliel> definitely not good, may I suggest automatic backup before conversion?
1326 2011-07-27 15:43:14 <BlueMatt> bitcointools dump is always nice
1327 2011-07-27 15:43:23 <TD> if the "encrypt wallet" option is available, does that mean the encryption didn't commit ?
1328 2011-07-27 15:43:28 <nanotube> b4epoche: then there's the wiki, and the original satoshi paper, and the code. :)
1329 2011-07-27 15:43:34 <Joric> nanotube, cia presentation in pdf? where i may download it?
1330 2011-07-27 15:43:37 <BlueMatt> Eliel: theoretically dbd does it in a commit, so if it fails, its not written
1331 2011-07-27 15:43:46 <nanotube> Joric: don't have a link offhand...
1332 2011-07-27 15:43:48 <Joric> oh got one https://s3.amazonaws.com/gavinandresen-bitcoin/GavinAndresenCIATalk.pdf
1333 2011-07-27 15:43:50 <BlueMatt> but it exits on purpose if it gets half-way as in-memory state might be messed up them
1334 2011-07-27 15:43:52 <BlueMatt> n
1335 2011-07-27 15:43:53 <Eliel> BlueMatt: ah, that's good then
1336 2011-07-27 15:43:56 <nanotube> Joric: there you go :)
1337 2011-07-27 15:43:57 <Joric> that was easy
1338 2011-07-27 15:44:04 <TD> hmmm
1339 2011-07-27 15:45:06 <TD> Exception Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at 0x00000000000000d6
1340 2011-07-27 15:45:14 <TD> Thread 5 Crashed:
1341 2011-07-27 15:45:14 <TD> 0 org.bitcoin.bitcoin 0x0006e710 ThreadSocketHandler2(void*) + 192 (net.cpp:774)
1342 2011-07-27 15:45:14 <TD> 1 org.bitcoin.bitcoin 0x0006e4e0 ThreadSocketHandler(void*) + 96 (net.cpp:745)
1343 2011-07-27 15:45:23 <TD> seems the network thread crashed whilst the main thread was inside EncryptWallet
1344 2011-07-27 15:45:27 <Joric> didn't know instawallet was made by gavin
1345 2011-07-27 15:45:34 <BlueMatt> Joric: it wasnt
1346 2011-07-27 15:45:54 <BlueMatt> TD: either way...not good
1347 2011-07-27 15:46:23 <Optimo> residue in yer tubez
1348 2011-07-27 15:46:24 <Joric> maybe not :)
1349 2011-07-27 15:46:24 <Joric> Innovation example #1: This is a screen shot of my Âinstawallet
1350 2011-07-27 15:46:35 <Joric> just his account
1351 2011-07-27 15:46:50 <BlueMatt> his account
1352 2011-07-27 15:46:51 <BlueMatt> yea
1353 2011-07-27 15:46:59 <BlueMatt> "created by a person in Germany"
1354 2011-07-27 15:47:08 KING_OZAN has joined
1355 2011-07-27 15:47:55 <TD> crap, it died again
1356 2011-07-27 15:48:09 <Rabbit67890> incompatible encoding
1357 2011-07-27 15:49:30 <TD> seems that this time it died whilst attempting to display the exception window
1358 2011-07-27 15:49:37 <TD> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1359 2011-07-27 15:49:38 <TD> DbEnv::txn_checkpoint: Invalid argument
1360 2011-07-27 15:49:38 <TD> bitcoin in ThreadMessageHandler()
1361 2011-07-27 15:49:47 <TD> i wonder if there is a problem with the way i've built bitcoin that could cause libdb problems
1362 2011-07-27 15:49:51 <diki> says a lot about the coders then
1363 2011-07-27 15:50:21 <BlueMatt> what version of bdb?
1364 2011-07-27 15:50:52 <TD> actually i suspect this is some kind of shutdown race/corruption, the crashes are just a symtom of the early exit
1365 2011-07-27 15:51:03 <BlueMatt> ah, ok might be
1366 2011-07-27 15:51:08 <TD> the main thread is inside munmap
1367 2011-07-27 15:51:19 krekbwoy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1368 2011-07-27 15:51:31 <TD> which is itself part of the exit, so i bet something was unmapped out from underneath the other threads.
1369 2011-07-27 15:51:39 <TD> next question, why can EncryptKeys fail
1370 2011-07-27 15:52:07 <BlueMatt> well let me go test a thing or two really quick...
1371 2011-07-27 15:52:27 <BlueMatt> the ugly exits are probably a symptom of my bad coding
1372 2011-07-27 15:52:37 <BlueMatt> the reason for the failure to encrypt, now that I dont know
1373 2011-07-27 15:53:17 <TD> hmm needs some logging on the exit paths
1374 2011-07-27 15:53:18 * TD adds
1375 2011-07-27 15:53:53 nhodges_d has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1376 2011-07-27 15:56:34 <TD> Could not set privkey
1377 2011-07-27 15:56:49 amiller has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1378 2011-07-27 15:56:56 <TD> that's odd. implies my mapKeys is somehow busticated
1379 2011-07-27 15:57:15 <Joric> what do you think about padded base58 is it worth to specify key length explicitly (e.g. 20 bytes for public keys (type 0-127) and 32 bytes for secret keys (type 128-255), I'm not quite sure)
1380 2011-07-27 15:57:24 <BlueMatt> dbdump from bitcointools look ok?
1381 2011-07-27 15:58:19 <TD> oh, sipa mentioned something about the locking yesterday
1382 2011-07-27 15:58:23 <TD> not sure if it's relevant
1383 2011-07-27 15:58:31 <BlueMatt> yea, was just thinking about that
1384 2011-07-27 15:58:38 <BlueMatt> seems very unlikely though
1385 2011-07-27 15:58:46 Mr_Tiggr is now known as MrTiggr
1386 2011-07-27 15:58:47 <BlueMatt> is your keypool full?
1387 2011-07-27 15:59:41 <BlueMatt> no, that wouldnt make sense CCryptoKeyStore::EncryptKeys locks KeyStore like it should
1388 2011-07-27 16:00:28 <TD> nothing obviously bust in the wallet dump
1389 2011-07-27 16:01:19 <TD> what's the difference between CSecret and CPrivKey?
1390 2011-07-27 16:01:33 <TD> i know they are typedefs of the same thing
1391 2011-07-27 16:01:44 <TD> SetPrivKey expects a CPrivKey and AFAICT mKey.second is a CSecret
1392 2011-07-27 16:02:01 <TD> unless i'm reading the code wrong
1393 2011-07-27 16:02:10 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1394 2011-07-27 16:02:27 <sacarlson> does anyone have any thoughts about the feasabilty of changing the nBits settings for the first X blocks of a new chain? in GetNextWorkRequired(const CBlockIndex* pindexLast)
1395 2011-07-27 16:02:38 <BlueMatt> CPrivKey has all the openssl headers and crap
1396 2011-07-27 16:02:45 <BlueMatt> CSecret is strictly the private key
1397 2011-07-27 16:03:11 krekbwoy has joined
1398 2011-07-27 16:03:25 <TD> SetPrivKey expects a CPrivKey
1399 2011-07-27 16:03:27 <TD> oops
1400 2011-07-27 16:03:32 <TD> CKey key;
1401 2011-07-27 16:03:32 <TD> BOOST_FOREACH(KeyMap::value_type& mKey, mapKeys)
1402 2011-07-27 16:03:32 <TD> {
1403 2011-07-27 16:03:33 <TD> if (!key.SetPrivKey(mKey.second)) {
1404 2011-07-27 16:03:33 <TD> printf("Could not set privkey\n");
1405 2011-07-27 16:03:47 <TD> here, mKey.second looks like a CSecret to me, so it's expected SetPrivKey wouldn't work ?
1406 2011-07-27 16:04:12 <BlueMatt> typedef std::map<std::vector<unsigned char>, CPrivKey> KeyMap;
1407 2011-07-27 16:04:16 <BlueMatt> KeyMap mapKeys;
1408 2011-07-27 16:04:25 <BlueMatt> should be a CPrivKey
1409 2011-07-27 16:04:33 <TD> hmm
1410 2011-07-27 16:04:36 <TD> am I out of date ?
1411 2011-07-27 16:04:44 <TD> in keystore.h i see
1412 2011-07-27 16:04:45 <TD> typedef std::map<CBitcoinAddress, CSecret> KeyMap;
1413 2011-07-27 16:04:45 <TD> class CBasicKeyStore : public CKeyStore
1414 2011-07-27 16:04:56 <BlueMatt> oh, maybe Im out of date
1415 2011-07-27 16:04:58 TheZimm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1416 2011-07-27 16:05:13 <TD> maybe a recent change broke it
1417 2011-07-27 16:05:22 <BlueMatt> yep, I was out of date...
1418 2011-07-27 16:05:29 <BlueMatt> yep, someone broke it
1419 2011-07-27 16:05:46 <TD> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a9ba47101a46533ff0418d6868ebc9bf5c889818
1420 2011-07-27 16:05:47 <TD> this ?
1421 2011-07-27 16:05:59 <BlueMatt> yep, mustve been
1422 2011-07-27 16:06:01 <TD> gavins test suite can't come soon enough
1423 2011-07-27 16:06:03 <TD> :-(
1424 2011-07-27 16:06:24 <BlueMatt> yea, I would think just changing that line to SetSecret should work here then
1425 2011-07-27 16:06:27 blueadept has joined
1426 2011-07-27 16:06:58 <TD> hmm that patch changed a ton about the encrypted wallet code. i wonder how it was tested
1427 2011-07-27 16:07:13 <BlueMatt> judging based on your results, I would think it wasnt
1428 2011-07-27 16:07:24 <BlueMatt> it doesnt change much, just replace
1429 2011-07-27 16:07:33 <BlueMatt> so Im assuming sipa just missed one fine/replace
1430 2011-07-27 16:07:38 <BlueMatt> s/fine/find/
1431 2011-07-27 16:07:50 <Joric> funny that 279-byte der key contains the public key as well
1432 2011-07-27 16:08:16 <BlueMatt> yea, considering we index that 279-byte thing by the pubkey...talk about wasted space
1433 2011-07-27 16:08:24 <BlueMatt> well, we did
1434 2011-07-27 16:08:41 <TD> right, let's try again ...
1435 2011-07-27 16:08:58 <TD> there we go
1436 2011-07-27 16:09:17 <TD> that seems to have worked
1437 2011-07-27 16:09:47 <TD> sure enough dbdump now reports two (?) mkeys and a bunch of ckeys
1438 2011-07-27 16:09:58 <BlueMatt> ckeys, yes, two mkeys?
1439 2011-07-27 16:10:02 <BlueMatt> that seems wrong...
1440 2011-07-27 16:10:10 <TD> how many mkeys are expected?
1441 2011-07-27 16:10:12 <BlueMatt> 1
1442 2011-07-27 16:10:15 <TD> hum :)
1443 2011-07-27 16:10:51 <TD> perhaps an artifact of the previously failed attempts
1444 2011-07-27 16:11:43 <BlueMatt> possibly, but indicates an issue in my db tx code
1445 2011-07-27 16:12:04 <jrmithdobbs> it shouldn't barf on multiple mkeys for sure
1446 2011-07-27 16:12:14 <BlueMatt> no, it should still work fine
1447 2011-07-27 16:12:26 <BlueMatt> but it now has 2 mkeys with different aes keys inside
1448 2011-07-27 16:12:27 <BlueMatt> which is wrong
1449 2011-07-27 16:12:30 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i'm just agreeing re: tx code
1450 2011-07-27 16:13:20 <BlueMatt> no, the masterkey write is in the dbtxn
1451 2011-07-27 16:13:34 amiller has joined
1452 2011-07-27 16:14:03 <jrmithdobbs> shouldn't it, ideally, support the usage of multiple mkeys anyways so that keys can be rotated?
1453 2011-07-27 16:14:23 <jrmithdobbs> maybe marke which mkey each record is encoded with to support that
1454 2011-07-27 16:14:28 <jrmithdobbs> s/marke/mark/
1455 2011-07-27 16:14:44 <BlueMatt> it isnt supported, but it works fine with
1456 2011-07-27 16:15:08 <b4epoche> anyone got a second to explain something on Gavin's CIA talk?
1457 2011-07-27 16:15:11 <BlueMatt> there are no checksums on any master keys, so if you unencrypt one with the right passphrase, but the wrong key comes out, it will just assume its the wrong passphrase
1458 2011-07-27 16:16:06 KING_OZAN has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
1459 2011-07-27 16:16:08 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1460 2011-07-27 16:16:15 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: dont ask to ask ;)
1461 2011-07-27 16:16:30 denisx has joined
1462 2011-07-27 16:17:33 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: yea, yea⦠you got a copy of it?
1463 2011-07-27 16:17:44 <b4epoche> go to page 14
1464 2011-07-27 16:17:47 <BlueMatt> i did, let me bring it back up
1465 2011-07-27 16:18:16 <BlueMatt> I see no page numbers
1466 2011-07-27 16:18:19 <jrmithdobbs> where's the transcript?
1467 2011-07-27 16:18:21 <BlueMatt> title?
1468 2011-07-27 16:18:30 denisx_ has joined
1469 2011-07-27 16:18:46 <b4epoche> not having page numbers doesn't mean there is no page 14 ;-)
1470 2011-07-27 16:18:55 <BlueMatt> ok, found it, the diagram right?
1471 2011-07-27 16:18:56 <b4epoche> there's no title...
1472 2011-07-27 16:19:01 <b4epoche> yea, diagram
1473 2011-07-27 16:19:08 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: where can i get a copy?
1474 2011-07-27 16:19:08 <BlueMatt> ok
1475 2011-07-27 16:19:12 <BlueMatt> https://s3.amazonaws.com/gavinandresen-bitcoin/GavinAndresenCIATalk.pdf
1476 2011-07-27 16:19:26 <b4epoche> the "New tens or block?" condition.
1477 2011-07-27 16:19:53 <b4epoche> is the work the miners are doing 'dynamic' like that?
1478 2011-07-27 16:20:00 <BlueMatt> no
1479 2011-07-27 16:20:03 <BlueMatt> but thats the idea
1480 2011-07-27 16:20:20 <b4epoche> the block they are working on is fixed, correct?
1481 2011-07-27 16:20:22 <BlueMatt> in reality, the incrementnonce and hash <= target is one tightly packed loop
1482 2011-07-27 16:20:36 <BlueMatt> no
1483 2011-07-27 16:20:49 <BlueMatt> when you get new txns you push a new block and drop work on the old one
1484 2011-07-27 16:21:09 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: no the new block's contents changes constantly until it's actually won the hash lottery and published
1485 2011-07-27 16:21:22 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: ah, okay...
1486 2011-07-27 16:21:45 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1487 2011-07-27 16:21:46 denisx_ is now known as denisx
1488 2011-07-27 16:21:52 <b4epoche> I guess I can see that⦠I was thinking that 'old work' would be wasted but it's still just random even if the block changes
1489 2011-07-27 16:22:10 <jrmithdobbs> yup
1490 2011-07-27 16:22:22 <b4epoche> so the 'winning nonce' could be one that was already 'checked', correct?
1491 2011-07-27 16:22:24 hwolf has joined
1492 2011-07-27 16:22:31 <jrmithdobbs> contents of new block doesn't affect the random work
1493 2011-07-27 16:22:32 <BlueMatt> yea, the idea of work as progress to the goal is one that is hard to get over
1494 2011-07-27 16:22:41 p0s has joined
1495 2011-07-27 16:23:09 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: if a block with hash <= target is found, bitcoin doesnt care if there are newer txes that should be there, it just broadcasts the one it found
1496 2011-07-27 16:23:24 <b4epoche> here's another question that's been bothering me⦠how do we know a 'winning nonce' exists?
1497 2011-07-27 16:23:31 <BlueMatt> we dont
1498 2011-07-27 16:23:46 <BlueMatt> but you add more txes and get a different block, youll find one eventually
1499 2011-07-27 16:23:55 TD has joined
1500 2011-07-27 16:24:15 <b4epoche> so, if tx's slowed to a virtual halt, that could be a problem
1501 2011-07-27 16:24:31 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r3b4a6745958c / (14 files in 6 dirs): Removed storage namespace. No need for it. http://tinyurl.com/3qltvbc
1502 2011-07-27 16:24:32 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r22342b74613b / (6 files in 4 dirs): std::error_code for errors in storage instead of bools. http://tinyurl.com/3oa38un
1503 2011-07-27 16:24:36 <BlueMatt> no, you can increment alternate nonce
1504 2011-07-27 16:24:50 <BlueMatt> to run out of changes to the blocks would take a year of miners working...
1505 2011-07-27 16:24:58 <jrmithdobbs> that presentation is a bit anticlimatic
1506 2011-07-27 16:24:58 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1507 2011-07-27 16:25:07 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: ah, so a miner could be working on a fixed block or a dynamic one
1508 2011-07-27 16:25:30 <BlueMatt> a miner can gladly work on a block with no transactions all the time, and just increment the previous block hash when he finds a new block
1509 2011-07-27 16:25:37 <BlueMatt> but thats not helping the network much
1510 2011-07-27 16:25:53 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: well, if I'm going to give a TEDxPSU talk I'll be asking you to help jazz it up
1511 2011-07-27 16:25:59 <BlueMatt> or one with a set of txes and neve rchange them
1512 2011-07-27 16:26:08 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: ya there's no reqs that they include any txns at all
1513 2011-07-27 16:26:17 <jrmithdobbs> though, it is in their interest to do so thanks to fees
1514 2011-07-27 16:26:25 <jrmithdobbs> not much of an incentive right now
1515 2011-07-27 16:26:43 <b4epoche> yea, but no extra effort either, right?
1516 2011-07-27 16:26:55 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1517 2011-07-27 16:27:04 <BlueMatt> yea fee calculation is one-time
1518 2011-07-27 16:27:25 <BlueMatt> since its not in the hash loop, it adds no real overhead
1519 2011-07-27 16:27:35 <jrmithdobbs> but you'd be better off seeding the network at multiple locations with direct peers to publish your block faster than caring about the miniscule ammounts of time not including any txns would help you
1520 2011-07-27 16:27:47 karnac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1521 2011-07-27 16:27:48 <BlueMatt> TD: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/436
1522 2011-07-27 16:27:57 <TD> spiff
1523 2011-07-27 16:27:58 <TD> thanks
1524 2011-07-27 16:27:59 karnac has joined
1525 2011-07-27 16:28:03 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: make sense?
1526 2011-07-27 16:28:37 <BlueMatt> TD: still dont see where multiple mkeys might have come from, but they arent hurting anything
1527 2011-07-27 16:28:41 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: also, i had no idea ted.com existed until like 2 weeks ago, and i've been given like 5 or 6 different links to it from different people in completely different "communities" since, lol
1528 2011-07-27 16:28:43 <TD> ok
1529 2011-07-27 16:28:46 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: funny how that works out.
1530 2011-07-27 16:29:06 <BlueMatt> you didnt know about ted talks until 2 weeks ago?
1531 2011-07-27 16:29:08 <BlueMatt> how???
1532 2011-07-27 16:29:12 <jrmithdobbs> no idea
1533 2011-07-27 16:29:13 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: thing explode in your own mind...
1534 2011-07-27 16:29:27 <b4epoche> jrmithdobbs: and, yea, I'm as surprised as BlueMatt
1535 2011-07-27 16:29:29 <BlueMatt> ted talks are freaking amazing
1536 2011-07-27 16:29:30 <jrmithdobbs> seriously no idea how i didn't now that i do
1537 2011-07-27 16:29:50 * b4epoche can't believe he didn't know about Trailer Park Boys until a few weeks ago
1538 2011-07-27 16:30:10 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1539 2011-07-27 16:30:16 <jrmithdobbs> just like i hadn't hit a journal/academic newsletter paywall until like 2 days after gmaxwell's leak
1540 2011-07-27 16:30:16 <BlueMatt> no clue what that is
1541 2011-07-27 16:30:19 <jrmithdobbs> shit's freaky
1542 2011-07-27 16:30:29 <BlueMatt> ah, its Canadian...well no wonder I didnt no what it is
1543 2011-07-27 16:30:34 <jrmithdobbs> err hadn't hit one in like a year, i mean
1544 2011-07-27 16:30:35 <b4epoche> difficulty is established by the number of leading zeros in hash, correct?
1545 2011-07-27 16:30:57 <BlueMatt> leading 0s required in hash, but it doesnt have to be all 0s
1546 2011-07-27 16:31:01 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,hextarget
1547 2011-07-27 16:31:02 <gribble> 00000000000009EC040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1548 2011-07-27 16:31:09 <BlueMatt> its established by that number, which you have to be lower than
1549 2011-07-27 16:32:09 <b4epoche> so, as non-zero digits march to the right, you increase difficulty?
1550 2011-07-27 16:32:19 <BlueMatt> yep
1551 2011-07-27 16:32:34 <b4epoche> BlueMatt: most of the trailer park boys episodes/movies are on youtube⦠it's hilarious
1552 2011-07-27 16:33:18 <BlueMatt> its funny how little canadian culture moves to the us, despite the whole neighbor thing
1553 2011-07-27 16:33:23 <BlueMatt> or maybe its just because Im from the south
1554 2011-07-27 16:33:56 <b4epoche> a couple slides forward from the flow chart is one title "Block Race". I don't get Gavin's explanation of that
1555 2011-07-27 16:34:30 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r0ee20d147f66 / (Makefile tests/block-hash.cpp tests/script-test.cpp): Amended unit test examples. http://tinyurl.com/3n3ok8k
1556 2011-07-27 16:34:36 <nanotube> b4epoche: if two blocks are produced 'almost simultaneously', then there's a temporary 'fork'. the fork that wins is one that gets the next block built upon it first.
1557 2011-07-27 16:34:47 <b4epoche> the canadian thing is funny two since I grew up in SE MI and could get canadian broadcasts growing up
1558 2011-07-27 16:35:04 <b4epoche> but I think cable segregated us from them
1559 2011-07-27 16:35:47 <b4epoche> nanotube: ah, I see. so the 'winner' isn't determined until the next block is found.
1560 2011-07-27 16:35:55 <BlueMatt> yep
1561 2011-07-27 16:36:25 <TD> gavins slides are very good
1562 2011-07-27 16:37:08 <MrTiggr> !seen gmaxwell
1563 2011-07-27 16:37:09 <TiggrBot> gmaxwell was last seen speaking 10 hours, 23 minutes, 34 seconds ago.
1564 2011-07-27 16:37:10 <spaola> MrTiggr, gmaxwell is right here!
1565 2011-07-27 16:37:13 <Joric> speaking of canadian i've only seen jpod :)
1566 2011-07-27 16:37:16 <nanotube> b4epoche: yes. and also note that if one of the blocks is even very slightly faster than the other, it has a large head start spreading through the network, so more miners will try to build upon it, than the other block that's slightly slower.
1567 2011-07-27 16:37:19 <b4epoche> TD: I like them generally. and I like that he's got verbiage at the bottom
1568 2011-07-27 16:37:30 <TD> yeah
1569 2011-07-27 16:38:57 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1572 2011-07-27 16:39:45 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1573 2011-07-27 16:39:49 * b4epoche might have to start accepting bitcoins for grades
1574 2011-07-27 16:40:09 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1575 2011-07-27 16:40:13 nhodges has joined
1576 2011-07-27 16:40:15 <BlueMatt> hehe
1577 2011-07-27 16:40:32 <TD> so has sirius gone completely AWOL then?
1578 2011-07-27 16:40:40 <b4epoche> actually, that might be a good example to illustrate that bitcoin is no better than cash for illegal activity
1579 2011-07-27 16:40:47 <BlueMatt> TD: as far as anyone knows, yea
1580 2011-07-27 16:40:57 <TD> oh dear
1581 2011-07-27 16:41:00 <gjs278> he has domain control right
1582 2011-07-27 16:41:01 <gjs278> for bitcoin.org
1583 2011-07-27 16:41:15 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: except for the fact that you would be the one doing the illegal part and getting traced...
1584 2011-07-27 16:41:23 <TD> i think he owns this channel too
1585 2011-07-27 16:41:26 <BlueMatt> gjs278: yea
1586 2011-07-27 16:41:28 <gjs278> lol
1587 2011-07-27 16:41:35 <b4epoche> yea, well I'd use a professor I don't like in the story
1588 2011-07-27 16:41:40 <BlueMatt> TD: well getting the chan back isnt hard, freenode will do that
1589 2011-07-27 16:41:52 <BlueMatt> domains OTOH...
1590 2011-07-27 16:41:55 <gjs278> I said a long time ago he shouldn't have it because he doesn't care
1591 2011-07-27 16:42:02 <gjs278> when the domain was a piece of crap he did nothing to fix it
1592 2011-07-27 16:42:10 <gjs278> the front page that is
1593 2011-07-27 16:43:02 <BlueMatt> hes just not really a part of the community...
1594 2011-07-27 16:43:14 <BlueMatt> he should probably give it to gavin/jgarzik/etc though
1595 2011-07-27 16:43:27 <TD> yeah
1596 2011-07-27 16:43:33 <TD> but we still have write access to the website, right?
1597 2011-07-27 16:43:55 <BlueMatt> yes
1598 2011-07-27 16:44:31 glassresistor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1599 2011-07-27 16:45:06 glassresistor has joined
1600 2011-07-27 16:48:28 <imsaguy2> so before the .org expires, you push everyone to a different tld
1601 2011-07-27 16:49:08 <BlueMatt> hopefully sirius will come back before then
1602 2011-07-27 16:49:18 <imsaguy2> 8 years is a long time
1603 2011-07-27 16:49:18 <BlueMatt> though letting the forum hosting expire would be nice :)
1604 2011-07-27 16:49:36 <imsaguy2> Expiration Date:18-Aug-2019 13:19:55 UTC
1605 2011-07-27 16:49:41 <imsaguy2> plenty of time
1606 2011-07-27 16:50:26 evelyn66 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1607 2011-07-27 16:51:06 <TD> a bigger/better website would make the forum less of an issue
1608 2011-07-27 16:51:16 AlonzoTG has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1609 2011-07-27 16:51:22 <TD> it's a concern today because there's so little content on the main website so people look to the forum to answer all their questions and learn about the project
1610 2011-07-27 16:51:27 <TD> then they learn, all bitcoin users are trolls :)
1611 2011-07-27 16:51:40 <nanotube> TD: what kind of content would you suggest to add to the main site?
1612 2011-07-27 16:51:56 <nanotube> the domain does redirect to the sf.net hosted site, and the devs do have access to it.
1613 2011-07-27 16:51:59 <TD> merging weusecoins.com into it would be a good start. stefan was coming round to the idea last time i checked
1614 2011-07-27 16:52:12 <TD> just laying out the case for bitcoin, and such
1615 2011-07-27 16:52:19 SecretSJ has joined
1616 2011-07-27 16:52:25 <TD> gavin is good at this. he understands the importance of emphasising innovation, etc
1617 2011-07-27 16:52:37 <TD> along with instructions on how to best obtain coins, instructions for merchants, etc.
1618 2011-07-27 16:52:47 Incitatus has joined
1619 2011-07-27 16:52:52 <TD> there are so many users posting in the forums, i'm sure it must be possible to put together a somewhat sane web team :)
1620 2011-07-27 16:53:11 <nanotube> hmmm yea
1621 2011-07-27 16:53:28 <BlueMatt> not so sure there
1622 2011-07-27 16:53:35 <imsaguy2> lol
1623 2011-07-27 16:53:40 <imsaguy2> sanity is overrated
1624 2011-07-27 16:53:40 <BlueMatt> most of the really active posters are kinda non-sane
1625 2011-07-27 16:54:22 <nanotube> BlueMatt: yes, well, there are plenty of sane people too, they just get lost in the noise hehe
1626 2011-07-27 16:54:37 karnac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1627 2011-07-27 16:55:05 <BlueMatt> well, I prefer to just delete the forums and post a nice faq, like weusecoins
1628 2011-07-27 16:55:21 wardearia has joined
1629 2011-07-27 16:55:29 <upb> why delete history tho ?
1630 2011-07-27 16:55:37 <BlueMatt> because its insane?
1631 2011-07-27 16:55:38 <nanotube> BlueMatt: archive the historical data though.
1632 2011-07-27 16:55:49 <nanotube> it has real actual satoshi-posts in there after all. :)
1633 2011-07-27 16:56:03 <BlueMatt> fine, delete everything after like 3 months ago
1634 2011-07-27 16:56:40 <BlueMatt> (I am being sarcastic here...)
1635 2011-07-27 16:56:52 <TD> the forum is still useful
1636 2011-07-27 16:57:00 <TD> if it wasn't there, i'd have nowhere to post my articles on contracts :)
1637 2011-07-27 16:57:11 <TD> as bitcoin-development is for, well, development
1638 2011-07-27 16:57:19 <nanotube> we can make a new forum
1639 2011-07-27 16:57:23 <BlueMatt> and get responses from people who have no idea what they are talking about ;)
1640 2011-07-27 16:57:24 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1641 2011-07-27 16:57:28 <TD> it's a presentation issue rather than a naming/officialness issue
1642 2011-07-27 16:57:32 <TD> well, or both
1643 2011-07-27 16:57:36 <b4epoche> active posters = people with nothing better to do
1644 2011-07-27 16:57:43 <TD> but there's no point moving the forum without providing an alternative source of info
1645 2011-07-27 16:57:47 <nanotube> b4epoche: same can be said about active irc-ers :D
1646 2011-07-27 16:57:49 krekbwoy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1647 2011-07-27 16:58:01 * nanotube points at b4epoche and self... <_<
1648 2011-07-27 16:58:01 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1649 2011-07-27 16:58:09 <b4epoche> nanotube: true but not as bad
1650 2011-07-27 16:58:13 <nanotube> hehe
1651 2011-07-27 16:58:27 <nanotube> TD: indeed, the website should be fleshed out
1652 2011-07-27 16:58:29 * BlueMatt points to himself and wonders why he got left out
1653 2011-07-27 16:58:58 MrTiggr has joined
1654 2011-07-27 16:59:26 <imsaguy2> lol
1655 2011-07-27 16:59:54 <BlueMatt> TD: the problem is no one really feels like/has the time to do that...
1656 2011-07-27 17:00:07 <TD> yeah ..... always the same :)
1657 2011-07-27 17:00:16 Rabbit67890 has left ()
1658 2011-07-27 17:00:20 agricocb has joined
1659 2011-07-27 17:00:48 <TD> http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22812
1660 2011-07-27 17:00:51 <TD> doh
1661 2011-07-27 17:01:13 <BlueMatt> ouch
1662 2011-07-27 17:01:19 <imsaguy2> sounds like a terrorist
1663 2011-07-27 17:01:26 <nanotube> http://www.geekwire.com/2011/bitcoin-befuddles-customs-agents-thwarting-seattle-visit-digital-currency-guru
1664 2011-07-27 17:01:29 <BlueMatt> nefario is a well-known community member here
1665 2011-07-27 17:01:33 <nanotube> ^ more info
1666 2011-07-27 17:01:34 <nanotube> yep
1667 2011-07-27 17:01:54 <nanotube> think it's good publicity though. the fact that one can visit a country and count on living off bitcoins :)
1668 2011-07-27 17:02:03 <TD> can't say i really blame the customs agents though. it's not unreasonable to expect people to have sufficient cash before entering a new country
1669 2011-07-27 17:02:58 <b4epoche> agreed
1670 2011-07-27 17:03:40 <TD> hmm
1671 2011-07-27 17:03:43 <BlueMatt> still...
1672 2011-07-27 17:03:54 <TD> perhaps one of the web designers who accepts bitcoins might be worth hiring
1673 2011-07-27 17:03:58 <BlueMatt> Id assume at some point he sold his btc into usd during the questioning
1674 2011-07-27 17:04:13 mosimo has joined
1675 2011-07-27 17:04:33 <BlueMatt> TD: well one would have to find a trustworthy/good one...but yea
1676 2011-07-27 17:04:55 <BlueMatt> iirc gavin said some early adopters had offered sizeable donations if they were to support the project
1677 2011-07-27 17:05:05 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1678 2011-07-27 17:05:06 <TD> yeah
1679 2011-07-27 17:05:31 copumpkin has joined
1680 2011-07-27 17:05:50 * BlueMatt -> food
1681 2011-07-27 17:06:43 <b4epoche> MagicalTux seemed to be willing to be a matchmaker
1682 2011-07-27 17:06:44 <nanotube> TD: isn't it the same as "i have money in a bank account that i can access via the internet"
1683 2011-07-27 17:07:37 <b4epoche> nanotube: not sure how you'd withdraw without a bank card
1684 2011-07-27 17:08:02 <nanotube> b4epoche: you can use your bank to send payments to people
1685 2011-07-27 17:08:18 <nanotube> e.g., i log into my bank, send payment to party X, they give me cash.
1686 2011-07-27 17:08:31 <b4epoche> nanotube: but it sounded like he had no traditional way of even getting money
1687 2011-07-27 17:08:35 <nanotube> where partyX is either a friend, or someone like western union, etc.
1688 2011-07-27 17:08:40 <copumpkin> MagicalTux a matchmaker? so we'll have a bitcoin-funded okcupid?
1689 2011-07-27 17:08:58 <nanotube> b4epoche: well, a bitcoin wallet /is/ functionally like an internet-accessible bank account. :)
1690 2011-07-27 17:09:16 <b4epoche> /traditional/
1691 2011-07-27 17:09:19 <nanotube> anyway, it made for good publicity, and that's what counts. :) it seems his primary goal was not "to make sure he gets in" but to "make a good story"
1692 2011-07-27 17:09:25 MobiusL has joined
1693 2011-07-27 17:09:39 <nanotube> because if it was the former, he'd have taken an atm or debit card with him, even if just for show.
1694 2011-07-27 17:12:09 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1695 2011-07-27 17:16:26 <senseles_> i dont get it why not just bring cash
1696 2011-07-27 17:16:46 <senseles_> the customs agent was probably thinking "you cant get from the airport to a hotel for less than 200$"
1697 2011-07-27 17:16:58 <senseles_> Oh wait that was seattle not LA :/
1698 2011-07-27 17:17:06 <senseles_> maybe cabs arent so expensive there
1699 2011-07-27 17:17:19 <senseles_> The weird thing is, you can't get a hotel room with cash
1700 2011-07-27 17:17:26 <senseles_> so I'm not sure how he'd have handeled that one
1701 2011-07-27 17:17:33 <da2ce7> hmmm
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1707 2011-07-27 17:20:21 <bulletbill> gettransaction <txid> returns "Invalid or non-wallet transaction id". Obviously, some of the transactions i'm looking at are not mine. What to do to get details?
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1712 2011-07-27 17:26:50 <imsaguy2> senseles_, what any geek does: sleep under his desk
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1714 2011-07-27 17:29:51 <senseles_> im sure customs would have loved that answer
1715 2011-07-27 17:30:53 klikklak has joined
1716 2011-07-27 17:32:55 <imsaguy2> there's not much that customs really seems to like
1717 2011-07-27 17:33:17 <cjdelisle> they like stealing mail
1718 2011-07-27 17:34:11 <BlueMatt> imsaguy2: except for a us passport
1719 2011-07-27 17:34:28 <imsaguy2> even then sometimes
1720 2011-07-27 17:34:38 <BlueMatt> not really
1721 2011-07-27 17:35:09 <imsaguy2> I had more trouble gettting back from Canada then getting into
1722 2011-07-27 17:35:24 dvide_ has joined
1723 2011-07-27 17:35:43 <BlueMatt> you actually had trouble? Ive never been stopped at customs for more than 10 secs in my life
1724 2011-07-27 17:35:48 <imsaguy2> yeah
1725 2011-07-27 17:35:53 <imsaguy2> I had a completely empty car
1726 2011-07-27 17:35:57 hwolf has left ()
1727 2011-07-27 17:35:59 <imsaguy2> nothing in the trunk
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1730 2011-07-27 17:36:09 <BlueMatt> oh, by car, meh never driven across the border
1731 2011-07-27 17:36:18 <BlueMatt> nc is too far from any borders
1732 2011-07-27 17:36:21 <imsaguy2> and I spent probably 20-30 minutes explaining why I went to Canada, etc
1733 2011-07-27 17:36:37 <imsaguy2> I drove to Canada and back in a day
1734 2011-07-27 17:36:45 <imsaguy2> I live in Chicago
1735 2011-07-27 17:37:07 <imsaguy2> it was going to take 3-6 weeks to get a permit or 10 minutes in person
1736 2011-07-27 17:37:10 <imsaguy2> so I drove and got it
1737 2011-07-27 17:37:17 <imsaguy2> 3-6 weeks by mail*
1738 2011-07-27 17:37:33 <BlueMatt> you have to get a permit to go to canada?
1739 2011-07-27 17:37:34 <BlueMatt> since when
1740 2011-07-27 17:37:48 <imsaguy2> you have to have a passport or passport card now
1741 2011-07-27 17:37:53 <imsaguy2> when I went it was before 9/11
1742 2011-07-27 17:38:01 <imsaguy2> it was a remote border crossing permit
1743 2011-07-27 17:38:08 <imsaguy2> I went canoeing
1744 2011-07-27 17:38:11 <BlueMatt> yea, you just need a passport
1745 2011-07-27 17:38:14 <BlueMatt> you dont have a passport?
1746 2011-07-27 17:38:22 <imsaguy2> uh
1747 2011-07-27 17:38:29 <imsaguy2> this was 10 years ago when state id was good enough
1748 2011-07-27 17:38:35 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
1749 2011-07-27 17:38:37 <imsaguy2> more like 12 years ago
1750 2011-07-27 17:38:42 <imsaguy2> before everything changed
1751 2011-07-27 17:38:50 <imsaguy2> but evidentally, I was suspicious
1752 2011-07-27 17:38:56 <BlueMatt> meh, its so easy to get a passport
1753 2011-07-27 17:39:04 <imsaguy2> oh, I'm good now
1754 2011-07-27 17:39:08 <imsaguy2> but at the time, there wasn't a need
1755 2011-07-27 17:39:14 <BlueMatt> border crossings are a pain, airport customs never care
1756 2011-07-27 17:39:26 <imsaguy2> lol
1757 2011-07-27 17:39:29 <imsaguy2> funny how that works
1758 2011-07-27 17:39:43 <cjdelisle> Funny thing, I don't think they'd keep you out if you had a drivers license and you happened to be in canada or mexico.
1759 2011-07-27 17:40:10 <imsaguy2> CAnada's the one that is picky about no felons and stuff
1760 2011-07-27 17:40:19 <imsaguy2> so to get back, it was just crazyy
1761 2011-07-27 17:41:26 <BlueMatt> never in my life has airport customs cared what I did, and Ive come into the eu with a cart full of boxes wrapped in garbage bags
1762 2011-07-27 17:41:43 <imsaguy2> lol
1763 2011-07-27 17:42:14 underscor has joined
1764 2011-07-27 17:42:29 <cjdelisle> Yea, I could see getting in to canada wouldn't be easy, they have a right to maintain their border. Getting back though with minimal paperwork is probably not a problem. People do lose their passports and family just has to vouch for them.
1765 2011-07-27 17:43:31 <imsaguy2> It isn't like they don't have you in umpteen million different databases
1766 2011-07-27 17:44:11 dedeibel has joined
1767 2011-07-27 17:44:13 <cjdelisle> There's that, there's also the risk of all the publicity that would come from a newspaper headline "Stranded in Mexico"
1768 2011-07-27 17:46:25 <imsaguy2> just a heads up "GoDaddy offers 31% off Your Entire Purchase when you enter code gdz737a at checkout" Valid on hosting, registrations, and renewals
1769 2011-07-27 17:47:12 <BlueMatt> why on earth would you ever use godaddy for anything?
1770 2011-07-27 17:47:22 <BlueMatt> they are so fracking terrible
1771 2011-07-27 17:47:42 <imsaguy2> their hosting sucks, but the registration has been ok for me
1772 2011-07-27 17:47:43 <cjdelisle> Oh does anyone know of a decent vps provider ~1G of ram, openz or whatever is fine, I'll be running debian.
1773 2011-07-27 17:47:43 <BlueMatt> Id pay an extra 50%/year to not use their "website"
1774 2011-07-27 17:48:05 <BlueMatt> even their registration sucks, have fun figuring out that website
1775 2011-07-27 17:48:19 <BlueMatt> seriously, stick with anyone else...you can typically find cupons for others too
1776 2011-07-27 17:48:38 <imsaguy2> lol
1777 2011-07-27 17:49:03 <imsaguy2> tell us how you really feel?
1778 2011-07-27 17:49:33 <BlueMatt> I want to murder that douchbag who invented that company
1779 2011-07-27 17:49:45 <JFK911> whos a good cheap registrar
1780 2011-07-27 17:49:46 <BlueMatt> one year of registration there and...
1781 2011-07-27 17:50:05 <BlueMatt> hover is good, gandi is better, but the usd->eur conversion means an extra ~5%
1782 2011-07-27 17:50:05 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1783 2011-07-27 17:50:24 <JFK911> i'll check them out - thanks for advice
1784 2011-07-27 17:50:36 <JFK911> i need to register some new domains to harrass the government people out of office
1785 2011-07-27 17:50:49 <JFK911> local judge is going down
1786 2011-07-27 17:50:52 copumpkin has joined
1787 2011-07-27 17:51:01 <JFK911> but i need to protect my privacy
1788 2011-07-27 17:51:11 manifold has joined
1789 2011-07-27 17:51:18 <BlueMatt> there are quite a few good ones, but godaddy is probably the worst Ive ever heard of/seen
1790 2011-07-27 17:51:35 <JFK911> yeah i figured they are cheap and if i just register there i might be okay, but i'd rather not use them
1791 2011-07-27 17:51:35 <imsaguy2> but the commercials...!!!!
1792 2011-07-27 17:51:38 <imsaguy2> ;)
1793 2011-07-27 17:51:45 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1794 2011-07-27 17:52:05 <JFK911> i don't have a tv so i dont know who to avoid anymore. usually, i don't buy something that i know people are running ads for
1795 2011-07-27 17:52:07 <BlueMatt> they pretty much all have the exact same prices after the "x% off for the first year" stuff
1796 2011-07-27 17:52:25 <BlueMatt> like down to the cent exact same prices
1797 2011-07-27 17:52:42 <imsaguy2> why not?
1798 2011-07-27 17:52:54 <imsaguy2> isn't that the whole point is to maximize what you can make?
1799 2011-07-27 17:53:21 <BlueMatt> ???
1800 2011-07-27 17:53:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1801 2011-07-27 17:54:23 <imsaguy2> you rope them in with the special
1802 2011-07-27 17:54:36 <BlueMatt> oh - 10% off hover with promo code twit :)
1803 2011-07-27 17:54:46 <BlueMatt> they all have promo codes for 10% off or whatever at any given time
1804 2011-07-27 17:54:58 <imsaguy2> then you charge what everyone else is charging so there's no reason to switch (in a strictly $$ sense)
1805 2011-07-27 17:55:16 <imsaguy2> sorta like the airlines all charging the same amounts at the end of the day
1806 2011-07-27 17:55:22 <BlueMatt> well if it takes 20 minutes just to get to the control panel to change a nameserver, Id call that reason to change
1807 2011-07-27 17:55:36 <imsaguy2> it doesn't
1808 2011-07-27 17:55:37 <JFK911> cool
1809 2011-07-27 17:55:49 <JFK911> i already know the godaddy website sucks
1810 2011-07-27 17:55:58 <JFK911> someone asked me to try and help him before
1811 2011-07-27 17:56:15 <imsaguy2> dns.godaddy.com
1812 2011-07-27 17:56:17 <imsaguy2> login
1813 2011-07-27 17:56:21 <imsaguy2> click the domain
1814 2011-07-27 17:56:24 <imsaguy2> good to edi
1815 2011-07-27 17:56:26 <imsaguy2> t
1816 2011-07-27 17:56:43 <BlueMatt> and Im supposed to know to go to oddextension.goodaddy.com how?
1817 2011-07-27 17:57:14 <imsaguy2> its no different than going to a website and trying website.com/support to get support
1818 2011-07-27 17:57:27 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1819 2011-07-27 17:57:33 <BlueMatt> well on godaddy, there are 20 different odd subdomains you can go to to get to the manage stuff
1820 2011-07-27 17:57:36 <imsaguy2> or going to google.com/+ google.com/plus
1821 2011-07-27 17:57:46 <imsaguy2> you try something and see if it works
1822 2011-07-27 17:57:51 <BlueMatt> just trying to go to godaddy.com and click login does not help is my point
1823 2011-07-27 17:58:13 <BlueMatt> no, you go to the homepage, click login, and poof you are at a clean manage interface
1824 2011-07-27 17:58:50 Mr_Tiggr has joined
1825 2011-07-27 17:58:55 <BlueMatt> with godaddy, its more like login, find the manage button, not that manage button, the other one, click "no I dont want to buy hosting right now" get to a terrible interface, click another manage button to get to a better interface, and then finally you can sort of mange the domain
1826 2011-07-27 17:59:21 <BlueMatt> and adding a glue record for your dns is such a pain...
1827 2011-07-27 17:59:31 <BlueMatt> or it was when I was with them
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1842 2011-07-27 18:10:11 <AlonzoTG> om
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1871 2011-07-27 18:51:38 <senseles_> godaddy use to be decent for dns services
1872 2011-07-27 18:51:55 <senseles_> is there anywhere else that you can order domains where you can easily attach domainsbyproxy
1873 2011-07-27 18:51:55 <senseles_> ?
1874 2011-07-27 18:52:29 <forrestv> senseles_, namecoin!
1875 2011-07-27 18:52:41 <senseles_> i wonder how much godaddy makes from all the spams when you try to complete an order
1876 2011-07-27 18:54:03 <edcba> just don't use godaddy
1877 2011-07-27 18:54:23 <edcba> unless you are really poor
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1879 2011-07-27 18:55:20 repl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1880 2011-07-27 18:56:43 <lfm> ;;bc,spotestimate
1881 2011-07-27 18:56:44 <gribble> 2086825.86524
1882 2011-07-27 18:57:13 <BlueMatt> senseles_: most registrars support domain name forward proxy stuf
1883 2011-07-27 18:57:14 <BlueMatt> f
1884 2011-07-27 18:57:17 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1888 2011-07-27 18:58:58 <cjdelisle> godaddy is awesome for doing the domain of a political website because you can scream conspiracy at the top of your lungs when someone takes it down
1889 2011-07-27 18:59:37 nus has joined
1890 2011-07-27 18:59:37 <cjdelisle> IMO godaddy is kind of like an auction, domains for 1 dollar, domain ceasure for 2.
1891 2011-07-27 18:59:55 sgornick has joined
1892 2011-07-27 19:00:25 <BlueMatt> you can do that for any registrar
1893 2011-07-27 19:00:37 <BlueMatt> I would say godaddy is much worse if you dont want taken down
1894 2011-07-27 19:01:12 <cjdelisle> Yea but like ghandi you know someone's going to look at the case really carefully. Godaddy it's like [click here to cease domain]
1895 2011-07-27 19:01:25 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.147.215|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1896 2011-07-27 19:01:34 <lfm> if you want it taken down cuz you like to scream consiracy
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1898 2011-07-27 19:01:40 <BlueMatt> hehe, yep I would bet very much that godaddy is gonna cave under the slightest bit of pressure
1899 2011-07-27 19:06:09 <samlander> lfm: what is spotestimate for?
1900 2011-07-27 19:07:14 repl has joined
1901 2011-07-27 19:07:30 <lfm> samlander: difficulty estimate based on last three days instead of since last diff change, more meaningfull generally
1902 2011-07-27 19:07:56 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
1903 2011-07-27 19:07:57 <gribble> 1864040.29967194
1904 2011-07-27 19:08:05 <lfm> ;;bc,spotestimate
1905 2011-07-27 19:08:05 <gribble> 2086825.86524
1906 2011-07-27 19:08:34 <lfm> so the 2 million figure is a slightly better bet
1907 2011-07-27 19:09:07 <samlander> mining is going to be hella hard after the expo
1908 2011-07-27 19:09:13 <xelister> 2 mln diff? omfg.
1909 2011-07-27 19:09:18 <xelister> fuck this shit Im going home :D
1910 2011-07-27 19:09:24 <lfm> bye
1911 2011-07-27 19:09:27 <samlander> im mining namecoins liek a mofo now
1912 2011-07-27 19:09:30 <lfm> more for the rest of us
1913 2011-07-27 19:09:52 <samlander> i feel confident that they will eventually trade for .5 btc
1914 2011-07-27 19:10:00 <samlander> and i plan on mining a fuckton of them before they do
1915 2011-07-27 19:10:14 <lfm> good luck
1916 2011-07-27 19:10:18 <samlander> tyty
1917 2011-07-27 19:10:19 <xelister> trololo samlander
1918 2011-07-27 19:10:35 <samlander> i broke 150 btc today
1919 2011-07-27 19:10:41 <imsaguy2> exactly how much is a fuckton?
1920 2011-07-27 19:10:55 <lfm> howd you break e
1921 2011-07-27 19:11:06 <lfm> imsaguy lots
1922 2011-07-27 19:11:10 <imsaguy2> lol
1923 2011-07-27 19:11:28 <samlander> imsaguy: it's more than a little and less than roflobster
1924 2011-07-27 19:11:46 <samlander> err didnt break them perse
1925 2011-07-27 19:11:56 <samlander> first time my wallet has passed the 150 mark
1926 2011-07-27 19:12:02 <imsaguy2> is that more or less than what your mom was charging last night?
1927 2011-07-27 19:12:14 <samlander> my mom is dead you ass
1928 2011-07-27 19:12:26 <imsaguy2> right, everyone says that, try something new
1929 2011-07-27 19:12:26 <samlander> ...
1930 2011-07-27 19:12:29 <xelister> so, less?
1931 2011-07-27 19:12:57 <samlander> imsaguy: busted
1932 2011-07-27 19:13:28 <samlander> is there a .net implementation of the client yet?
1933 2011-07-27 19:13:45 thefinn93 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1934 2011-07-27 19:14:04 <lfm> some people workng on C# stuff, dunno how far they got
1935 2011-07-27 19:14:25 <imsaguy2> busted?
1936 2011-07-27 19:14:27 Diablo-D3 has joined
1937 2011-07-27 19:14:31 <samlander> as in your'e right
1938 2011-07-27 19:14:39 <samlander> everyone says that
1939 2011-07-27 19:14:43 <senseles_> when are namecoin and bitcoin supposed to merge so it's possible to mine on both simultaneously?
1940 2011-07-27 19:15:00 <samlander> dunno
1941 2011-07-27 19:15:08 <samlander> heard some talk about it being theoretically possible
1942 2011-07-27 19:15:11 <jrmithdobbs> namecoin is doomed to failure
1943 2011-07-27 19:15:17 <samlander> jrmithdobbs: indeed
1944 2011-07-27 19:15:24 <jrmithdobbs> merging is not in bitcoin's interest
1945 2011-07-27 19:15:25 <imsaguy2> i should start a coin
1946 2011-07-27 19:15:27 <senseles_> from what i understand you generate a bitcoin share and then try it on namecoin and bitcoin
1947 2011-07-27 19:15:35 <TD> Sami345: there is bitcoinsharp
1948 2011-07-27 19:15:38 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1949 2011-07-27 19:15:38 <TD> er
1950 2011-07-27 19:15:41 <TD> sorry. that was for samlander
1951 2011-07-27 19:17:11 <TD> samlander: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinsharp/
1952 2011-07-27 19:17:12 <cjdelisle> I like the free dns consept of namecoin but I also feel like there should be a single unified bitcoin. Perhaps merged mining should be used then bitcoin should be used to "buy" domains.
1953 2011-07-27 19:17:32 <xelister> cjdelisle: sounds good
1954 2011-07-27 19:17:43 <cjdelisle> just needs code :)
1955 2011-07-27 19:17:48 <jgarzik> cjdelisle: multiple block chains are inevitable. it is the nature of the world.
1956 2011-07-27 19:18:09 <samlander> td: ty
1957 2011-07-27 19:18:19 <jgarzik> cjdelisle: in particular, bitcoin should -not- be used for storing data, as several have proposed.
1958 2011-07-27 19:18:26 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1959 2011-07-27 19:18:39 <jgarzik> cjdelisle: that negatively impacts all who use bitcoin as a currency
1960 2011-07-27 19:18:51 <lfm> seems like its mainly people who feel like they missed out on the goldrush with bitcoin, they think they can just start a new one.
1961 2011-07-27 19:19:13 <samlander> yep
1962 2011-07-27 19:19:16 <cjdelisle> jgarzik: I agree about storing data, still with merged mining you can implement checkpoints and have a subservient chain so while there are 2 chains there is only one measure of value.
1963 2011-07-27 19:19:20 <gmaxwell> At least namecoin serves a useful purpose.
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1965 2011-07-27 19:19:30 <samlander> however once the exchanges start trading namecoin too it's going to turn into another speculation market
1966 2011-07-27 19:19:38 <samlander> which is why i figure they'll jump to .5 before they die
1967 2011-07-27 19:19:42 <gmaxwell> samlander: there have been namecoin exchanges for a while.
1968 2011-07-27 19:19:52 <gmaxwell> You've missed the first big namecoin goldrush already.
1969 2011-07-27 19:19:55 <samlander> re: when mtgox starts trading them
1970 2011-07-27 19:20:17 <lfm> dont hold your breath
1971 2011-07-27 19:20:23 <samlander> i dont
1972 2011-07-27 19:20:26 <samlander> i have 5 miners
1973 2011-07-27 19:20:35 <gmaxwell> I don't think it matters, bitcoin is so easily moved that people have had no problems using the bitparking exchange.
1974 2011-07-27 19:20:36 <samlander> one of them has been retasked to name coins and generates 3 coins a day
1975 2011-07-27 19:20:39 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: namecoin's problem is the designers don't understand the problem they're trying to solve
1976 2011-07-27 19:20:55 <jrmithdobbs> it's just not a practical approach
1977 2011-07-27 19:21:10 <samlander> its an interesting idea though
1978 2011-07-27 19:21:24 <cjdelisle> ICANT is never going to support .bit, Dick Johnson is never going to point his dns at the namecoin chain. Without Dick Johnson, no webadmin is going to care. Kinda like ipv6.
1979 2011-07-27 19:21:47 <samlander> ipv6 is happening albeit slowly
1980 2011-07-27 19:21:48 <jrmithdobbs> to oversimplify, yes, that is part of it
1981 2011-07-27 19:21:50 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: hell, they're going to support .nike I think they'd have a hard time rejecting .bit if someone wanted to pony up the money.
1982 2011-07-27 19:21:53 sgornick has joined
1983 2011-07-27 19:22:03 <samlander> .nike?
1984 2011-07-27 19:22:05 <samlander> really?
1985 2011-07-27 19:22:08 * samlander face palms
1986 2011-07-27 19:22:11 <jrmithdobbs> but strapping it into the real dns root kind of defeats the purpose
1987 2011-07-27 19:22:16 <gmaxwell> Yes. corporations are going to be able to buy TLDs soon.
1988 2011-07-27 19:22:21 <jrmithdobbs> and noone involved with namecoin has proposed an alternative
1989 2011-07-27 19:22:25 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it still gives you a distributed registration system.
1990 2011-07-27 19:22:40 <jrmithdobbs> and without a bootstrap system an alternative naming system is pretty pointless
1991 2011-07-27 19:22:43 <samlander> honestly i think that namecoin dns is more suited for tor type networks
1992 2011-07-27 19:22:48 <cjdelisle> yea right, just imagine the discussion when they ask how they will take down domains which are supporting CP and terrisorm
1993 2011-07-27 19:23:00 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: er... iirc doublec has a working browser resolver for .bit which doesn't use ddns.
1994 2011-07-27 19:23:04 <gmaxwell> er dns.
1995 2011-07-27 19:23:15 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: requires whole chain though, doesn't it?
1996 2011-07-27 19:23:26 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and/or irc bootstrap?
1997 2011-07-27 19:23:33 <gmaxwell> Yes, well, I proposed how to solve that but it hasn't been evaluated yet.
1998 2011-07-27 19:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> which part
1999 2011-07-27 19:23:51 <gmaxwell> The whole chain part.
2000 2011-07-27 19:23:57 <senseles_> 250k for your own root tld
2001 2011-07-27 19:24:02 <senseles_> and 50k a year for renewal
2002 2011-07-27 19:24:03 <senseles_> iirc
2003 2011-07-27 19:24:13 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's solvable with some of the discussion that's happened in here re: adding merkle trees to the txns and similar
2004 2011-07-27 19:24:19 <gmaxwell> if blocks commit to the hash tree for open transactions.. yep.
2005 2011-07-27 19:24:29 <jrmithdobbs> oh didn't know that came from you ;p
2006 2011-07-27 19:24:33 <senseles_> there will be a billion domains pop up and the pricing on domains is going to drop to like 1$ a pop except for the old roots like .com etc
2007 2011-07-27 19:24:39 <ciscoftw_l33t> 250k for a tld?
2008 2011-07-27 19:24:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but with no bootstrap it's not a dns alteranitev
2009 2011-07-27 19:24:50 <jrmithdobbs> alternative
2010 2011-07-27 19:24:50 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea. that came from me.
2011 2011-07-27 19:24:51 <jrmithdobbs> imho
2012 2011-07-27 19:24:53 <ciscoftw_l33t> seems crazy high
2013 2011-07-27 19:25:03 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well, you can code bootstrap roots.
2014 2011-07-27 19:25:17 <jrmithdobbs> but then you're no better than '.'
2015 2011-07-27 19:25:29 <gmaxwell> in any case, bitcoin has the same issues.
2016 2011-07-27 19:25:43 <jrmithdobbs> except bitcoin can solve them with dns seeds ;p
2017 2011-07-27 19:25:49 <jrmithdobbs> because it's not aiming to replace dns
2018 2011-07-27 19:25:51 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: no, well, you can have checkpoints and authentication on the seeds.
2019 2011-07-27 19:26:27 <jrmithdobbs> i dunno, I just have a heavy dose of skepticism
2020 2011-07-27 19:26:31 <cjdelisle> dns seeds :( why not ask the bittorrent people first, they had all of these same great ideas 10 years ago and now they know what doesn't work.
2021 2011-07-27 19:26:32 <gmaxwell> sure sure
2022 2011-07-27 19:26:49 <cjdelisle> *what doesn't scale
2023 2011-07-27 19:26:51 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: dht doesn't work
2024 2011-07-27 19:26:54 <jrmithdobbs> for this
2025 2011-07-27 19:26:58 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: bittorrent folks have not solved the bootstrapping issue in the slightest.
2026 2011-07-27 19:27:14 <jrmithdobbs> they just have a global network of bootstrap nodes thanks to time/scale
2027 2011-07-27 19:27:19 <jrmithdobbs> basically
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2029 2011-07-27 19:27:41 <cjdelisle> *shrug* your project
2030 2011-07-27 19:27:56 <jrmithdobbs> no
2031 2011-07-27 19:28:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: on a completely different topic
2032 2011-07-27 19:28:21 <senseles_> the only thing you can really do is have a huge network of hub nodes that are all connected to each other
2033 2011-07-27 19:28:36 <gmaxwell> Don't pretend to have made a suggestion when all you did was wave your arms. If bittorrent is actually doing something specific that we'e all unaware of which helps a lot, please feel free to point it out.
2034 2011-07-27 19:28:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: so using yubikeys in sha1-hmac mode for OTP-like operation
2035 2011-07-27 19:28:53 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yep.
2036 2011-07-27 19:29:07 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: do you think it's better to change the challenge on every use or change the both the challenge and the hmac key (because either is trivial)
2037 2011-07-27 19:29:11 <jrmithdobbs> or irrelevent
2038 2011-07-27 19:29:31 <gmaxwell> I'd worry that changing the hmac key might have annoying race behaviors.
2039 2011-07-27 19:29:42 <gmaxwell> e.g. what happens if you lose power while this is happening.
2040 2011-07-27 19:29:45 <jrmithdobbs> the key's never hitting a stateful storage device, anyways
2041 2011-07-27 19:29:50 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: easy
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2043 2011-07-27 19:30:10 <gmaxwell> e.g. the yubikey gets the new hmac, but the disk still has the old one?
2044 2011-07-27 19:30:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: always change key before changing derived key
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2046 2011-07-27 19:30:58 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: if it loses power (which it wont, thx ups) between hmac key change and re-encrypt of the data ... well not such a big deal in my use case
2047 2011-07-27 19:31:15 <gmaxwell> Personally I wouldn't bother, it's more cases to get right, and it only improves security if the SHA1-HMAC or the yubikey is compromised.
2048 2011-07-27 19:31:27 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's kind of my thinking
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2050 2011-07-27 19:31:36 <jrmithdobbs> since the key's never hitting non-ram storage
2051 2011-07-27 19:31:42 <jrmithdobbs> it's pretty much a non-issue
2052 2011-07-27 19:31:50 <gmaxwell> right, well and it's already in ram when you change it.
2053 2011-07-27 19:31:52 <jrmithdobbs> it's a 160bit keyspace search
2054 2011-07-27 19:32:16 <gmaxwell> someone who is screwing with your hardware can capture the session used to set the hmac key...
2055 2011-07-27 19:32:39 <jrmithdobbs> right, basically anyone who can interefere in that case can interefere in either case
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2057 2011-07-27 19:33:07 <jrmithdobbs> this was something someone else suggested and i was making sure i wasn't missing anything
2058 2011-07-27 19:33:14 <gmaxwell> yep. it would slightly strenghten you if someone learns how to read the hmac keys out of your yubi, and they get ahold of it and do so.
2059 2011-07-27 19:33:52 <gmaxwell> Also, I wonder if the yubi has limited write cycles for that.
2060 2011-07-27 19:33:56 <jrmithdobbs> but in that case the key it's being used to protected should be rotated anyways
2061 2011-07-27 19:34:27 <jrmithdobbs> s/protected/protect/
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2063 2011-07-27 19:37:24 <samlander> how would a yubikey get comprimised?
2064 2011-07-27 19:38:27 <lfm> shouldersurfer?
2065 2011-07-27 19:38:46 <gmaxwell> samlander: no clue. corrupting its little mind with focused xrays and rewriting its firmware?
2066 2011-07-27 19:38:54 <gmaxwell> Doesn't really matter. Attacks happen.
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2068 2011-07-27 19:42:27 <cjdelisle> [o/t] http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/mit-webcam-swartz/ <-- When not protecting the president the Secret Service (SS) also protects paywalls.
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2074 2011-07-27 19:52:04 <Evious> Is there a summary of current bitcoin libraries? There's some PHP stuff, the C++ client, some thorough node.js/browser-based JS stuff... Anything else?
2075 2011-07-27 19:52:24 <Marf> theres an c# one too
2076 2011-07-27 19:53:18 <erus`> i made one in go :D
2077 2011-07-27 19:53:42 <forrestv> i implemented all the protocol and data structures in python in p2pool
2078 2011-07-27 19:53:53 <forrestv> and there's pycoin
2079 2011-07-27 19:53:58 <sipa> and bitcoinj
2080 2011-07-27 19:54:04 <Evious> Neat.
2081 2011-07-27 19:54:24 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2082 2011-07-27 19:54:33 <Marf> but still
2083 2011-07-27 19:54:39 <Marf> there is no cool client
2084 2011-07-27 19:54:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/436 :)
2085 2011-07-27 19:54:46 <Marf> just crappy looking shit
2086 2011-07-27 19:55:02 Zyrkon has left ("goatse")
2087 2011-07-27 19:55:09 <Evious> Is a cool client needed? The default graphical one is good, the command line one is good, and there's a javascript frontend in the browser.
2088 2011-07-27 19:55:25 <Marf> we need client for non geeks
2089 2011-07-27 19:55:26 <Marf> ;)
2090 2011-07-27 19:56:00 <Marf> something shiny
2091 2011-07-27 19:56:16 <forrestv> shiny ... like a web service?
2092 2011-07-27 19:56:36 <Marf> no a local client
2093 2011-07-27 19:56:45 <Marf> but not in win 95 style
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2096 2011-07-27 20:02:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: bleh
2097 2011-07-27 20:03:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've probably changed ideas a few times whether to store CPrivKeys or CSecret's in CBasicKeyStore's map
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2099 2011-07-27 20:03:56 <samlander> marf: i agree completely
2100 2011-07-27 20:04:33 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r543b51df72ed / (4 files in 3 dirs): boost::bind purged in favour of std::bind everywhere. http://tinyurl.com/3k3wa3u
2101 2011-07-27 20:04:33 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r44a1af6bfe9d / (9 files in 4 dirs): Use shared_from_this(), more consistent naming + coding style. http://tinyurl.com/3ds2k8r
2102 2011-07-27 20:04:35 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * rc8bd087f1de3 / (7 files in 5 dirs): async_connect http://tinyurl.com/3dadym7
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2108 2011-07-27 20:12:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: meh, we all make typos
2109 2011-07-27 20:13:13 <BlueMatt> and/or miss stuff we know we have to do
2110 2011-07-27 20:13:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've the feeling that i've introduced more bugs in the source code the past few months than anyone else :)
2111 2011-07-27 20:13:36 <sipa> maybe i've also changed more than anyone else...
2112 2011-07-27 20:13:42 <BlueMatt> youve also had more code in the main repo than anyone else...
2113 2011-07-27 20:13:57 <BlueMatt> or, more drastic and important changes that is ;)
2114 2011-07-27 20:14:05 kmio has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2115 2011-07-27 20:14:31 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * re7f09b59a75b / (5 files in 3 dirs): network std::error_code http://tinyurl.com/3nw3ues
2116 2011-07-27 20:15:09 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r687c825 / src/keystore.cpp : Fix EncryptKeys crash introduced by a9ba4710, identified by TD. - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/687c82558cc568f37eb1fb24bfb3c351e49d6735 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/687c82558cc568f37eb1fb24bfb3c351e49d6735
2117 2011-07-27 20:15:09 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * re1f1312 / src/keystore.cpp : Merge pull request #436 from TheBlueMatt/master ... https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/e1f13129e89f46df631f9523eea4c0e0448c9b7b
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2134 2011-07-27 20:44:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've implemented a change to the locking thing of the keystore
2135 2011-07-27 20:44:29 <BlueMatt> where?
2136 2011-07-27 20:44:32 <sipa> i think it's very stable, absolutely deadlock free, allows a lot of concurrency
2137 2011-07-27 20:44:45 <BlueMatt> lets see
2138 2011-07-27 20:44:47 <sipa> ... only it's quite impossible to have a lock() rpc call
2139 2011-07-27 20:45:31 <sipa> in my "doc" branch now
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2141 2011-07-27 20:47:18 <sipa> it's not finished though
2142 2011-07-27 20:48:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: there are a few solutions 1) a condition variable (supported by pthread, and probably by win as well), 2) let the cleanup thread wakeup every N second, and let the lock() rpc call block up to N seconds
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2148 2011-07-27 20:51:04 <BlueMatt> Im confused, you keep overwriting what you did...
2149 2011-07-27 20:51:24 <sipa> yes, work in progress :)
2150 2011-07-27 20:51:51 <sipa> i'll summarize: there is a reference counter in ccryptokeystore, when it turns 0, it locks
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2152 2011-07-27 20:52:14 <sipa> REF_BLOCK is a construct like CRITICAL_BLOCK that automatically increases and decreases that refcount
2153 2011-07-27 20:52:54 <BlueMatt> and how does one get an exclusive lock?
2154 2011-07-27 20:53:01 <BlueMatt> or is that impossible?
2155 2011-07-27 20:53:08 <jrmithdobbs> so a ghetto semaphore basically
2156 2011-07-27 20:53:37 <cjdelisle> I am c++ noob but can someone tell me what CRITICAL_BLOCK does in a phrase? Is it like Java synchronized()?
2157 2011-07-27 20:54:02 <sipa> cjdelisle: more or less
2158 2011-07-27 20:54:04 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: look for the definition in util.h iirc
2159 2011-07-27 20:54:12 <cjdelisle> thanks
2160 2011-07-27 20:54:22 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: indeed, if i'd just have a condition variable to use it'd be a lot simpler
2161 2011-07-27 20:54:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: you can get an exclusive lock by locking cs_KeyStore still
2162 2011-07-27 20:54:42 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: it's bitcoin specific but not an uncommon "pattern" (hate that word)
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2164 2011-07-27 20:55:14 <sipa> (which is necessary to access the nRefUnlocked)
2165 2011-07-27 20:55:17 <BlueMatt> sipa: ah, so it locks cs_KeyStore, then increments
2166 2011-07-27 20:55:22 <sipa> exactly
2167 2011-07-27 20:55:25 <BlueMatt> ok
2168 2011-07-27 20:55:27 <BlueMatt> makes sense
2169 2011-07-27 20:55:28 <cjdelisle> heh "design patterns" and in 5 years people inevitably substitute "anti" for "design"
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2171 2011-07-27 20:55:38 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i commend you for wading through that locking code ;p
2172 2011-07-27 20:57:15 <BlueMatt> so...what, exactly is the point of the reference counter if you have to lock cs_KeyStore first every time?
2173 2011-07-27 20:57:33 <sipa> the fact that you can have the reference counter incremented without holding the lock
2174 2011-07-27 20:57:43 <sipa> so multiple threads can still do useful things with the keystore
2175 2011-07-27 20:57:44 <BlueMatt> ...but we do?
2176 2011-07-27 20:57:53 <sipa> it just can't get locked
2177 2011-07-27 20:58:10 <sipa> you can do an RPC call while the wallet passphrase dialog is open, eg
2178 2011-07-27 20:59:17 <BlueMatt> but if you currently lock KeyStore first
2179 2011-07-27 20:59:23 <BlueMatt> then you cant currently?
2180 2011-07-27 20:59:28 <sipa> of course
2181 2011-07-27 20:59:37 <BlueMatt> mmm
2182 2011-07-27 20:59:40 <sipa> the lock on cs_KeyStore is just while incrementing the counter
2183 2011-07-27 20:59:42 <BlueMatt> well why not go ahead and do that now?
2184 2011-07-27 20:59:45 <sipa> you release it immediately
2185 2011-07-27 20:59:45 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
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2187 2011-07-27 21:02:43 <sipa> the real solution is probably extending CRITICAL_BLOCK with some monitor functionality
2188 2011-07-27 21:02:44 <BlueMatt> can you not implement a blocker for walletlock?
2189 2011-07-27 21:02:51 <BlueMatt> yea, why dont we do that?
2190 2011-07-27 21:02:55 <sipa> not sure
2191 2011-07-27 21:02:58 <sipa> i think we should
2192 2011-07-27 21:03:06 <BlueMatt> I mean the locking is too basic right now
2193 2011-07-27 21:03:18 <BlueMatt> well if you are hacking locking anyway... ?
2194 2011-07-27 21:03:23 <sipa> true
2195 2011-07-27 21:03:41 <sipa> i actually just started with writing some documentation for keystore
2196 2011-07-27 21:03:54 <sipa> and then got a bit carried away :)
2197 2011-07-27 21:04:05 <BlueMatt> heh, always how it happens
2198 2011-07-27 21:04:08 <sipa> haha
2199 2011-07-27 21:04:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: you're familiar with condition variables?
2200 2011-07-27 21:04:38 <BlueMatt> well, Ive been doing /some/ work on chub, not too much, but some...and it looks like Im redoing the inventory announcement code at this point :)
2201 2011-07-27 21:04:46 <sipa> chub?
2202 2011-07-27 21:04:50 <BlueMatt> Im not farmiliar with anything, but I learn quick ;)
2203 2011-07-27 21:04:53 <BlueMatt> CHub
2204 2011-07-27 21:04:57 <sipa> oh, right
2205 2011-07-27 21:05:10 <sipa> well, basically: you have a critical section you're in
2206 2011-07-27 21:05:22 <BlueMatt> yea, no I know enough
2207 2011-07-27 21:05:46 <BlueMatt> exclusive vs read locks
2208 2011-07-27 21:05:50 <BlueMatt> which is really what we need
2209 2011-07-27 21:06:05 <sipa> you can implement reader/writer locks using them, yes
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2211 2011-07-27 21:06:14 <sipa> but much more :)
2212 2011-07-27 21:06:32 <BlueMatt> well thats all we really need for us...
2213 2011-07-27 21:06:35 <BlueMatt> but yea
2214 2011-07-27 21:07:30 <sipa> it allows you to wait for a certain condition to hold (signalled by another thread), while having the lock on a CS
2215 2011-07-27 21:07:49 <sipa> but during the wait, you give up the CS, and get it back *immediately* when regaining control
2216 2011-07-27 21:08:00 <BlueMatt> yep
2217 2011-07-27 21:08:27 <BlueMatt> aka full support for different locking stuff instead of just CSes
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2219 2011-07-27 21:09:23 <sipa> yup
2220 2011-07-27 21:09:49 <BlueMatt> which would be so ridiculously nice ;)
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2225 2011-07-27 21:11:52 <sipa> but both windows and pthread have primitives for reader/writer lock
2226 2011-07-27 21:12:08 <sipa> so you'd better use those instead of implementing it yourself on top of cv's
2227 2011-07-27 21:12:45 <BlueMatt> yep
2228 2011-07-27 21:12:55 <BlueMatt> Id assume osx does as well
2229 2011-07-27 21:13:37 <sipa> well pthread is available on osx :)
2230 2011-07-27 21:13:50 <BlueMatt> oh, duh
2231 2011-07-27 21:13:55 <sipa> on windows too, actually
2232 2011-07-27 21:14:35 <sipa> and boost has similar things as well
2233 2011-07-27 21:15:29 <BlueMatt> Id assume boost wraps the pthread/windows stuff
2234 2011-07-27 21:15:34 <sipa> indeed
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2247 2011-07-27 21:33:16 <ciscoftw_l33t> where can in find the "in-built node list" within bitcoin's source?
2248 2011-07-27 21:34:09 <sipa> net.cpp, array pnSeed
2249 2011-07-27 21:34:40 <ciscoftw_l33t> many thank
2250 2011-07-27 21:35:06 <ciscoftw_l33t> the node list is similar to a "tracker" that torrent would use?
2251 2011-07-27 21:35:24 <sipa> it's just a fallback list of nodes
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2253 2011-07-27 21:35:40 <sipa> the tracker is probably comparable to the dns seeds now
2254 2011-07-27 21:36:11 <ciscoftw_l33t> thought only namecoin could use dns names?
2255 2011-07-27 21:36:39 <sipa> namecoin tries to mimic a dns system on itself
2256 2011-07-27 21:36:53 <sipa> that doesn't prevent bitcoin from using the real dns system
2257 2011-07-27 21:36:55 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2258 2011-07-27 21:37:33 <ciscoftw_l33t> ...so when i launch a bitcoin client, that client (is it can't use irc) will use the staic list of peers spec'd in net.cpp
2259 2011-07-27 21:37:35 Rabbit67890 has joined
2260 2011-07-27 21:37:51 <sipa> ultimately, yes
2261 2011-07-27 21:38:08 <sipa> it will first try DNS, cached known addresses, and IRC
2262 2011-07-27 21:38:55 <ciscoftw_l33t> dns cached address? so in a config file there is a FQDN telling me where to connect to peers
2263 2011-07-27 21:39:24 <ciscoftw_l33t> cached address... bitcon "tracker" relying on me to resolve the fqdn via lookup/cache?
2264 2011-07-27 21:39:46 evelyn66 has joined
2265 2011-07-27 21:40:00 <sipa> no, your bitcoin client caches addresses it's seen before
2266 2011-07-27 21:40:05 Jade_ has joined
2267 2011-07-27 21:40:19 <ciscoftw_l33t> ummmmmmm
2268 2011-07-27 21:40:29 <sipa> IP addresses, i mean
2269 2011-07-27 21:40:35 <ciscoftw_l33t> yeah, i got it
2270 2011-07-27 21:40:39 <ciscoftw_l33t> same difference
2271 2011-07-27 21:40:57 <Jade_> Hi folks!
2272 2011-07-27 21:41:04 <ciscoftw_l33t> looking via the pnseed array, all the address are in HEX? sup with that? needs to be compiled first???
2273 2011-07-27 21:41:11 <sipa> try it
2274 2011-07-27 21:41:21 <sipa> ping '0xb167e5a9'
2275 2011-07-27 21:41:25 <ciscoftw_l33t> no way
2276 2011-07-27 21:41:31 <sipa> IPv4 addresses are just 32 bit numbers
2277 2011-07-27 21:41:56 <ciscoftw_l33t> dude, you just blew my mind right now
2278 2011-07-27 21:41:57 larsivi_ has joined
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2280 2011-07-27 21:42:47 <sipa> point your browser to http://1249725800
2281 2011-07-27 21:43:13 <Happy0> :|
2282 2011-07-27 21:43:14 <Happy0> mind blown
2283 2011-07-27 21:43:18 larsivi_ is now known as larsivi
2284 2011-07-27 21:43:26 <Jade_> can someone please give a hint on detecting block numbers inside the pushpoold? is this only possible with a json rpc to bitcoin?
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2305 2011-07-27 22:16:39 <lfm> jake_ you still there?
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2311 2011-07-27 22:21:23 <forrestv> Jade_, either that or keeping track of the entire block chain's headers
2312 2011-07-27 22:21:56 <Jade_> Hi, i am still here! thx for your reply!
2313 2011-07-27 22:22:50 <lfm> generally you dont need the block number for a miner
2314 2011-07-27 22:24:22 <forrestv> lfm, how do you compute the block reward? :p
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2317 2011-07-27 22:24:34 <Jade_> ok, but then i have a logical flaw in my thoughts: i am trying to know the block number a share was submitted for.
2318 2011-07-27 22:26:02 <forrestv> Jade_, maybe do it in terms of hashes? keep track of the block hash
2319 2011-07-27 22:26:08 <ciscoftw_l33t> even if you had the getwork raw capture (off the wire) youd have the checked hash for the current block
2320 2011-07-27 22:26:15 <lfm> forrestv: the server calculates all that, the miner just does hashes
2321 2011-07-27 22:26:28 nemesis51 is now known as nemesis51|away
2322 2011-07-27 22:26:32 <ciscoftw_l33t> server could be bitcoind not a pool server
2323 2011-07-27 22:27:15 <Jade_> my idea was: hook into long polling event handler + try to figure out the block number + write it to a database with a timestamp
2324 2011-07-27 22:28:36 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2325 2011-07-27 22:28:36 <lfm> like forestv said, youd just about have to go over the whole block chain looking for the prev hash.
2326 2011-07-27 22:29:00 aeromonomooouse has joined
2327 2011-07-27 22:29:27 <aeromonomooouse> I need code that will read a deposit to a bitcoin wallet and update a timer
2328 2011-07-27 22:29:55 mabus has joined
2329 2011-07-27 22:30:22 <Jade_> @lfm ok, .... then i have to do some serious research. i have to admit that although my pool is running and working as intended my knowledge on bitcoin protocol itself is quite... bad :)
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2332 2011-07-27 22:34:54 <lfm> aeromonomooouse: is this like for a web site accepting payments?
2333 2011-07-27 22:35:12 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
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2336 2011-07-27 22:35:49 <aeromonomooouse> lfm: yes.
2337 2011-07-27 22:36:05 <aeromonomooouse> lfm:micropayments
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2355 2011-07-27 22:57:24 <lfm> Jade_: um they might be submitting shares for blocks which you never find a solution (someone else will first).
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2358 2011-07-27 22:58:55 <Rabbit67890> 404 members here!
2359 2011-07-27 22:59:33 <lfm> Rabbit67890: yay! huh? is that significant?
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2362 2011-07-27 23:00:23 <lfm> Jade_: so they wont get paid for work they do on those blocks? They wont be happy about that I bet
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2367 2011-07-27 23:03:23 <BlueMatt> well both #bitcoin-dev and #bitcoin-otc are in the top 50 chans on freenode
2368 2011-07-27 23:03:46 <BlueMatt> as is -market
2369 2011-07-27 23:03:53 <Marf> someone has a nice csv file of the history of difficultys?
2370 2011-07-27 23:04:07 <BlueMatt> as is #bitcoin
2371 2011-07-27 23:04:26 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin is top 15 :)
2372 2011-07-27 23:04:36 <lfm> marf or http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/hashes.png
2373 2011-07-27 23:04:36 <Marf> bitcoin was top 3 :(
2374 2011-07-27 23:04:46 <Marf> lost many visitors
2375 2011-07-27 23:04:55 <Marf> when invite only started
2376 2011-07-27 23:05:04 <Marf> or registered only
2377 2011-07-27 23:05:09 wardearia has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2378 2011-07-27 23:05:19 <Marf> i need numbers
2379 2011-07-27 23:05:37 <Marf> but thx lfm its a start
2380 2011-07-27 23:05:46 <lfm> marf I have a little program will read them from the blk0001.dat file if you like?
2381 2011-07-27 23:06:06 <Marf> that would be verry nice!
2382 2011-07-27 23:06:08 <lfm> program for linux only
2383 2011-07-27 23:06:13 <ciscoftw_l33t> #bitcoin chans were invite only at one point?
2384 2011-07-27 23:06:23 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-otc
2385 2011-07-27 23:06:24 <Marf> hm ok than no
2386 2011-07-27 23:06:24 <Marf> ;D
2387 2011-07-27 23:06:29 <Marf> iam windows guy
2388 2011-07-27 23:06:31 <BlueMatt> you have to reg to get voice
2389 2011-07-27 23:06:34 eoss has joined
2390 2011-07-27 23:06:47 <Marf> you coultnd enter the channel without reg
2391 2011-07-27 23:06:53 <Marf> verry bad for new members
2392 2011-07-27 23:07:03 <lfm> Marf: ok have fun
2393 2011-07-27 23:07:07 d1g1t4l has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2394 2011-07-27 23:07:40 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2395 2011-07-27 23:08:24 <lfm> Jade_: ya the prepackaged pool is prolly the best place to go considering your time constraint.
2396 2011-07-27 23:08:51 <Eliel> Marf: I'm working on some graphs of bitcoin economy. Like number of transactions, bitcoins moved. That sort of data.
2397 2011-07-27 23:08:55 wardearia has joined
2398 2011-07-27 23:09:09 <Marf> nice
2399 2011-07-27 23:09:18 <lfm> Eliel: did you see my graph? ^^
2400 2011-07-27 23:09:19 <Marf> i wane use the data to predict future
2401 2011-07-27 23:09:28 <Marf> with eurequa
2402 2011-07-27 23:09:41 <Eliel> I'm waiting for this php script to convert the blockchain into postgresql database first though :P
2403 2011-07-27 23:09:58 <Eliel> Marf: what format would you need the data in?
2404 2011-07-27 23:10:30 <Marf> eurequa files
2405 2011-07-27 23:10:31 <Marf> ;D
2406 2011-07-27 23:10:34 <Marf> or csv
2407 2011-07-27 23:10:43 <Marf> or textfile
2408 2011-07-27 23:10:50 <Eliel> csv I could do. eurequa no idea what that is :D
2409 2011-07-27 23:11:08 <Marf> a programm that finds laws in data
2410 2011-07-27 23:11:17 <Marf> its verry cool!
2411 2011-07-27 23:11:34 <Eliel> but it won't be until tomorrow, the number of transactions per block is clearly been growing very fast lately. The last 8000 blocks are going into the db very slowly
2412 2011-07-27 23:11:57 <Marf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo6eeDsFlE&feature=player_embedded
2413 2011-07-27 23:11:59 <Eliel> lfm: the hashrate graph? yes
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2418 2011-07-27 23:16:38 <Marf> the more data the better something like the following would be cool:
2419 2011-07-27 23:16:42 <Marf> difficulty<tap>transactions<tap>date difficulty started
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2434 2011-07-27 23:40:31 <b4epoche> re: Gavin's email about bug fixes: are there bugs that need fixed or that need found?
2435 2011-07-27 23:41:21 blahblah___ has joined
2436 2011-07-27 23:41:26 <BlueMatt> both
2437 2011-07-27 23:42:14 <b4epoche> there are lingering known (and isolated) bugs?
2438 2011-07-27 23:42:28 copumpkin has joined
2439 2011-07-27 23:42:59 <BlueMatt> a few
2440 2011-07-27 23:43:16 <b4epoche> and they're hard to fix?
2441 2011-07-27 23:43:19 <BlueMatt> there quite a few "this code is terrible, someone should fix this crap" ones too
2442 2011-07-27 23:43:41 <b4epoche> actually, I was just going to ask if a code cleaning would help or hurt
2443 2011-07-27 23:44:06 <Teppy> I've got a lost-bitcoins problem, wondering if someone could help.
2444 2011-07-27 23:44:16 <BlueMatt> well Im (sort of) working on a restructure of communication between net, main and wallet
2445 2011-07-27 23:44:31 <BlueMatt> need to sit down and put in a ton of effort and finish it in 2 days...
2446 2011-07-27 23:44:53 <Teppy> I had about 2489 bitcoins in one wallet (on one machine)
2447 2011-07-27 23:45:06 <BlueMatt> ouch
2448 2011-07-27 23:45:12 chinaskibit has joined
2449 2011-07-27 23:45:13 <BlueMatt> what happened?
2450 2011-07-27 23:45:34 <Teppy> I sent 2400 of them to another machine, and got a message "Error: The transaction was rejected. This might happen if some of the coins in your wallet were already spent, such as if you used a copy of wallet.dat and coins were spent in the copy but not marked as spent here."
2451 2011-07-27 23:45:36 <BlueMatt> dont mean to be a dick, but if you didnt back it up...
2452 2011-07-27 23:45:43 <Teppy> I did back it up before sending.
2453 2011-07-27 23:45:48 ciscoftw_l33t has quit ()
2454 2011-07-27 23:45:53 <BlueMatt> oh you didnt lose the wallet
2455 2011-07-27 23:46:07 <nanotube> Teppy: well, one possibility is that someone stole your wallet, and spent your coins, so now you don't have them anymore.
2456 2011-07-27 23:46:19 <BlueMatt> what is the block count in the corner?
2457 2011-07-27 23:46:21 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
2458 2011-07-27 23:46:22 <gribble> 138385
2459 2011-07-27 23:46:24 <BlueMatt> is it that?
2460 2011-07-27 23:46:29 <BlueMatt> and do you have connections?
2461 2011-07-27 23:46:36 <nanotube> another possibility is that maybe you had a copy of the wallet on another computer, and spent some there, so now your wallet is out of sync with the latest reality
2462 2011-07-27 23:46:38 <BlueMatt> also, try opening bitcoin with -rescan
2463 2011-07-27 23:46:53 <Teppy> That's possible, but really, really unlikely. It's on a machine that runs only bitcoind, has no other ports open, and communicates only through an ssh tunnel, except for port 8833 open to accept bitcoins.
2464 2011-07-27 23:47:14 <Teppy> Checking 138385
2465 2011-07-27 23:47:29 <BlueMatt> failing that, try bitcointools dbdump and pastebin the output (with sensitive info removed)
2466 2011-07-27 23:47:33 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2467 2011-07-27 23:47:40 <b4epoche> wow, I gots 53 connections⦠might be a record
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2470 2011-07-27 23:48:18 * BlueMatt gets 150 all the time within minutes of opening bitcoin
2471 2011-07-27 23:48:24 <BlueMatt> with -maxconnections=150
2472 2011-07-27 23:48:36 <Teppy> What are you seeing in 138385 that makes you think that's the block?
2473 2011-07-27 23:48:50 <BlueMatt> that is the latest block count
2474 2011-07-27 23:48:52 <b4epoche> Teppy: I think he's just wondering if you have the full chain
2475 2011-07-27 23:49:00 <BlueMatt> yep
2476 2011-07-27 23:49:13 <Teppy> Yes, the block chain on the receiving machine is current.
2477 2011-07-27 23:49:19 <b4epoche> (record for me that is)
2478 2011-07-27 23:49:43 <Teppy> I did a "bitcoind stop" on the sending machine.
2479 2011-07-27 23:49:57 <BlueMatt> oh, I mean block chain on the sending machine
2480 2011-07-27 23:50:00 <BlueMatt> what is the count there?
2481 2011-07-27 23:50:36 <Teppy> But I can restart that. The sending machine *was* an old version of Bitcoind - 0.3.10
2482 2011-07-27 23:50:39 WildSoil has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2483 2011-07-27 23:50:52 davex__ has joined
2484 2011-07-27 23:51:04 <BlueMatt> oh, yea update please
2485 2011-07-27 23:51:17 <Teppy> I can restart that, or upgrade prior. Shouldn't matter I guess because wallet.dat was backed up. (Also address.dat is backed up)
2486 2011-07-27 23:51:31 <BlueMatt> address.dat, or addr.dat
2487 2011-07-27 23:51:50 <Teppy> addr.dat
2488 2011-07-27 23:51:58 <BlueMatt> yea, that doesnt matter
2489 2011-07-27 23:52:06 <Teppy> Ok, I'l restart 0.3.10
2490 2011-07-27 23:52:16 <b4epoche> is there really any good reason wallet.dat isn't a plain text file, i.e. wallet.txt
2491 2011-07-27 23:52:38 <nanotube> b4epoche: it's a database... plain text is not the greatest for databases. :)
2492 2011-07-27 23:52:49 <b4epoche> I realize that...
2493 2011-07-27 23:52:56 <BlueMatt> why reinvent the wheel
2494 2011-07-27 23:53:06 <BlueMatt> just use bdb and use its txns and such instead of making our own
2495 2011-07-27 23:53:26 <b4epoche> well, because even semi-power users have a hard time seeing what's up with wallet.dat
2496 2011-07-27 23:53:38 <BlueMatt> bitcointools works great
2497 2011-07-27 23:53:50 <BlueMatt> Teppy: please upgrade to 0.3.24, no point debugging something that old
2498 2011-07-27 23:53:59 <Teppy> Ok
2499 2011-07-27 23:54:13 <b4epoche> but then you need to make sure python is installed and that you have the right modules...
2500 2011-07-27 23:54:28 <BlueMatt> meh, any "semi-power user" can do that
2501 2011-07-27 23:54:36 <BlueMatt> macports or linux
2502 2011-07-27 23:54:46 <BlueMatt> if you arent on one of those, you arent a "semi-power user" ;)
2503 2011-07-27 23:54:50 <b4epoche> I mean, I completely understand that a database is nice, but I think a text file might take the mystery out of it for average folk
2504 2011-07-27 23:55:09 <BlueMatt> meh
2505 2011-07-27 23:55:39 <nanotube> b4epoche: there are costs and benefits to storing it as plain text...
2506 2011-07-27 23:55:44 <Teppy> Ok, might be 20 minutes or so to upgrade - running CentOS which requires compiling, and it isn't straightforward.
2507 2011-07-27 23:55:56 <Teppy> (On CentOS)
2508 2011-07-27 23:55:56 <BlueMatt> ah, yes that is a problem...
2509 2011-07-27 23:56:02 <b4epoche> nanotube: yes, I realize that. but I'm not sure the benefits don't overcome the costs
2510 2011-07-27 23:56:32 <nanotube> b4epoche: well, it seems that the original developer thought otherwise :) and it seems that none of the follow-on developers thought otherwise strongly enough to change it. :P
2511 2011-07-27 23:56:42 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: if we were doing a new client, maybe, but changing is not worth it
2512 2011-07-27 23:57:23 <b4epoche> my suggestion would be to 'mirror' the database as, say, xml
2513 2011-07-27 23:57:38 <WakiMiko_> WikiBot stopped working again?
2514 2011-07-27 23:57:58 <Evious> Bitcoins need more XML to be usable in the enterprise.
2515 2011-07-27 23:57:59 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: way, way too much effort...we kinda have other important things to work on atm ;)
2516 2011-07-27 23:58:07 <nanotube> b4epoche: or maybe, just provide a db export tool that dumps the whole thing into a json file or some such?
2517 2011-07-27 23:58:12 <BlueMatt> Evious: that is the most buzzword-loaded crap Ive ever heard
2518 2011-07-27 23:58:19 <Evious> I know.
2519 2011-07-27 23:58:24 <nanotube> Evious: haha nice one
2520 2011-07-27 23:58:28 <BlueMatt> WakiMiko_: WikiBot is a MagicalTux thing
2521 2011-07-27 23:59:07 <BlueMatt> Evious: sorry, we get people here who say such things seriously
2522 2011-07-27 23:59:07 <b4epoche> I just think its a perception issue⦠there's this mysterious wallet.dat file that has my money, wtf?
2523 2011-07-27 23:59:24 <WakiMiko_> k