1 2011-07-31 00:00:26 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
   2 2011-07-31 00:01:35 <jrmithdobbs> ya we're definitely connection starved
   3 2011-07-31 00:02:54 gjs278 has joined
   4 2011-07-31 00:02:59 <jrmithdobbs> 443 connections, 340 unique class bs
   5 2011-07-31 00:03:22 <BlueMatt> if its a botnet, ip distribution is likely to be similar to regular connections...
   6 2011-07-31 00:03:36 <BlueMatt> that said, you are probably right, probably nothing nefarious
   7 2011-07-31 00:03:41 <BlueMatt> just connection starvation
   8 2011-07-31 00:03:54 <jrmithdobbs> i'm not seeing any huge timing pushes
   9 2011-07-31 00:04:10 <TuxBlackEdo> bluematt: are you satoshi?
  10 2011-07-31 00:04:13 <jrmithdobbs> actually ya i am
  11 2011-07-31 00:04:16 <jrmithdobbs> whoa
  12 2011-07-31 00:04:19 <TuxBlackEdo> lol
  13 2011-07-31 00:04:26 <BlueMatt> no, I am
  14 2011-07-31 00:04:31 <TuxBlackEdo> haha
  15 2011-07-31 00:04:47 <TuxBlackEdo> you are like the most helpful person here
  16 2011-07-31 00:04:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: http://pastebin.com/PAC4FFQC
  17 2011-07-31 00:04:58 <BlueMatt> I wouldnt say helpful...
  18 2011-07-31 00:05:09 <jrmithdobbs> there's some seriously skewed clocks
  19 2011-07-31 00:05:20 <jrmithdobbs> but enough of them are good connections that it's basically balanced out
  20 2011-07-31 00:05:22 <BlueMatt> yea, Im assuming those are trying to time-shift...
  21 2011-07-31 00:05:27 <BlueMatt> yea
  22 2011-07-31 00:05:45 <jrmithdobbs> so it's a combination
  23 2011-07-31 00:05:52 <jrmithdobbs> but mostly just connection starvation
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  26 2011-07-31 00:07:04 <BlueMatt> looks like it
  27 2011-07-31 00:07:43 <jrmithdobbs> mith@vpn:0:~$ sudo netstat -antlp | grep 8333 | grep ESTABLISHED | wc -l; sudo netstat -antlp | grep 8333 | grep ESTABLISHED | awk '{print $5}' | cut -d: -f1 | sort | cut -d. -f1,2 | uniq | wc -l
  28 2011-07-31 00:07:47 <jrmithdobbs> 511
  29 2011-07-31 00:07:49 <jrmithdobbs> total vs class bs
  30 2011-07-31 00:07:51 <jrmithdobbs> 387
  31 2011-07-31 00:08:18 theorb has joined
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  33 2011-07-31 00:08:46 <jrmithdobbs> did upnp not get turned on in .24?
  34 2011-07-31 00:08:56 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
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  36 2011-07-31 00:09:25 <BlueMatt> only in bitcoin, not bitcoind
  37 2011-07-31 00:09:46 <jrmithdobbs> wow, would have thought that would have helped more than this
  38 2011-07-31 00:09:54 <BlueMatt> vegard: ping
  39 2011-07-31 00:10:04 <BlueMatt> yea, same here...
  40 2011-07-31 00:10:26 <BlueMatt> though tbh, there is not much of a way to tell how much it actually is helping
  41 2011-07-31 00:10:37 RaffleBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  42 2011-07-31 00:10:47 <BlueMatt> number of connectable nodes should drop a ton in 0.3.24, how much was made up with upnp, we cant really know
  43 2011-07-31 00:10:56 RaffleBot has joined
  44 2011-07-31 00:10:58 <BlueMatt> ;;seen vegard
  45 2011-07-31 00:10:58 <gribble> vegard was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 14 hours, 36 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <vegard> the controlled deflation is nice, though. it means that people will want to own bitcoins. what is the best way to own them? to accept them as payment for goods or services.
  46 2011-07-31 00:11:05 <luke-jr> drop? why?
  47 2011-07-31 00:11:16 <BlueMatt> because it doesnt disconnect all the time
  48 2011-07-31 00:11:20 <BlueMatt> (due to overflow)
  49 2011-07-31 00:11:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: well, i've been running the overflow patch long before 24 binaries were up
  50 2011-07-31 00:12:09 <BlueMatt> well you get my point
  51 2011-07-31 00:12:09 <jrmithdobbs> (the day sipa wrote the first version, in fact)
  52 2011-07-31 00:12:13 <jrmithdobbs> ya
  53 2011-07-31 00:12:40 <jrmithdobbs> so glad i found -printtoconsole
  54 2011-07-31 00:13:20 <jrmithdobbs> because i've written 10M of logs in the last 5-10 min with this many connections
  55 2011-07-31 00:13:35 <jrmithdobbs> thank god svlogd is autorotating/deleting for me
  56 2011-07-31 00:13:44 <gjs278> my bitcoin doesn't write to debug.log anymore
  57 2011-07-31 00:13:53 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: how much traffic do you have with your 400+ connections?
  58 2011-07-31 00:14:02 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: i'll look in a bit
  59 2011-07-31 00:14:08 <jrmithdobbs> graphs haven't cought up yet
  60 2011-07-31 00:14:13 <jrmithdobbs> and 400+ == 512
  61 2011-07-31 00:14:24 <jrmithdobbs> maxed out now
  62 2011-07-31 00:15:07 <BlueMatt> lol, my bitcoin graphs are like 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,max outbound connection,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,max outbound connection...
  63 2011-07-31 00:15:38 <jrmithdobbs> no i mean throughput graphs
  64 2011-07-31 00:15:52 <denisx> I have 220 connections and traffic is well below 10kb most of the time
  65 2011-07-31 00:15:55 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  66 2011-07-31 00:15:58 <denisx> kB
  67 2011-07-31 00:16:03 <BlueMatt> yea, thats my throughput on the router
  68 2011-07-31 00:16:09 <BlueMatt> (for bitcoin alone)
  69 2011-07-31 00:16:10 <jrmithdobbs> wow, i'm shifting a 1MB log in less than a 45 seconds
  70 2011-07-31 00:16:11 <jrmithdobbs> crazy
  71 2011-07-31 00:16:42 <BlueMatt> yea, over the past month, outbound traffic has averaged 0.04 Mb/s
  72 2011-07-31 00:16:52 <jrmithdobbs> with how many connections?
  73 2011-07-31 00:16:58 <jrmithdobbs> 128?
  74 2011-07-31 00:17:02 <BlueMatt> 150 max
  75 2011-07-31 00:17:16 <BlueMatt> aka almost always 150
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  80 2011-07-31 00:20:57 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, lol gimme the ip for your bitcoind node
  81 2011-07-31 00:21:00 <phantomcircuit> for the lulz
  82 2011-07-31 00:21:10 <jrmithdobbs> why it's full
  83 2011-07-31 00:21:11 <jrmithdobbs> heh
  84 2011-07-31 00:21:19 <phantomcircuit> no fun
  85 2011-07-31 00:21:25 RaffleBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  86 2011-07-31 00:21:36 <jrmithdobbs> still got a bunch of <.24 connections that are flooding themselves off, lol
  87 2011-07-31 00:21:46 <BlueMatt> hehe
  88 2011-07-31 00:21:46 RaffleBot has joined
  89 2011-07-31 00:21:54 <jrmithdobbs> at least, that's all i can think of for why they disconnect/reconnect
  90 2011-07-31 00:22:08 <BlueMatt> if you are running a good node to help the network, just drop connections of <0.3.24
  91 2011-07-31 00:23:43 <jrmithdobbs> effort
  92 2011-07-31 00:23:45 <coingenuity> sorry about the bot going in and out you guys
  93 2011-07-31 00:24:09 <coingenuity> some of the regulars in this channel asked me to develop a bot for my bitcoin related service, i'm indulging them...just had to make a few tweaks
  94 2011-07-31 00:24:27 <BlueMatt> can someone quickly test if they can make test_bitcoin?
  95 2011-07-31 00:24:33 <BlueMatt> on current head
  96 2011-07-31 00:24:51 <BlueMatt> and then try after adding #define BOOST_TEST_DYN_LINK to the top of src/test/test_bitcoin.cpp
  97 2011-07-31 00:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> i get undefined reference to main
  98 2011-07-31 00:26:05 <BlueMatt> yep, same here
  99 2011-07-31 00:26:11 <BlueMatt> and after the define?
 100 2011-07-31 00:26:13 <riush> BlueMatt, works with the extra define, not without
 101 2011-07-31 00:26:34 <jrmithdobbs> works
 102 2011-07-31 00:26:37 karnac has joined
 103 2011-07-31 00:26:39 <BlueMatt> ok, yea thats what happens on all my machines, gavin said it was opposite for him...
 104 2011-07-31 00:26:44 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: can you test it on mac?
 105 2011-07-31 00:26:53 <jrmithdobbs> i can real quick
 106 2011-07-31 00:27:12 <jrmithdobbs> let me pull real quick
 107 2011-07-31 00:27:56 <jrmithdobbs> test/test_bitcoin.cpp:2:36: error: boost/test/unit_test.hpp: No such file or directory
 108 2011-07-31 00:27:59 <jrmithdobbs> haha
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 110 2011-07-31 00:28:11 <jrmithdobbs> i think my build env might be borked since lion upgrade
 111 2011-07-31 00:28:15 <BlueMatt> yea
 112 2011-07-31 00:28:16 <jrmithdobbs> cause i've not rebuilt ports yet
 113 2011-07-31 00:28:26 <BlueMatt> we have no hpp files...
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 117 2011-07-31 00:30:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i don't have the full gui mac stuff available for building (because fuck wx)
 118 2011-07-31 00:31:03 <BlueMatt> you dont need it for test_bitcoin
 119 2011-07-31 00:31:24 wolfspraul has joined
 120 2011-07-31 00:31:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but once I added -I/opt/local/include to makefile.unix it mostly builds but chokes on -Bstatic
 121 2011-07-31 00:31:37 <jrmithdobbs> because osx doesn't like that option
 122 2011-07-31 00:31:50 <BlueMatt> ...then remove it
 123 2011-07-31 00:33:43 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 124 2011-07-31 00:34:03 <jrmithdobbs> ya my build env is fucked atm, can't test nm
 125 2011-07-31 00:34:16 <BlueMatt> nvm, I think I have a workable solution
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 131 2011-07-31 00:41:47 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: test_bitcoin needs to be added to .gitignore too
 132 2011-07-31 00:42:39 karnac has joined
 133 2011-07-31 00:42:49 <BlueMatt> ah, thanks
 134 2011-07-31 00:48:28 mmoya has joined
 135 2011-07-31 00:51:20 <TuxBlackEdo> would it be possible to just generate addresses and check if the address you generated has bitcoin in it?
 136 2011-07-31 00:51:50 <BlueMatt> yes
 137 2011-07-31 00:52:25 <TuxBlackEdo> i wonder if instead of using gpu to mine, one could keep generating addresses until he generates one that has bitcoins
 138 2011-07-31 00:52:59 <BlueMatt> yes, and it would take you 1000000x longer to get 50 btc
 139 2011-07-31 00:53:10 <BlueMatt> though thats not something you do on gpu
 140 2011-07-31 00:53:26 <TuxBlackEdo> hm
 141 2011-07-31 00:53:29 <BlueMatt> youd want to load blockchain into memory, so some better processing of it into a nice tree to search
 142 2011-07-31 00:53:32 <BlueMatt> and then have fun
 143 2011-07-31 00:53:39 <BlueMatt> but it would still be soooooo much slower
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 152 2011-07-31 01:01:43 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, fyi i have some loverly code that can keep all the connection slots open on a node with almost no effort
 153 2011-07-31 01:02:19 <BlueMatt> and that is supposed to surprise me how?
 154 2011-07-31 01:02:32 <BlueMatt> I already knew it wasnt hard to do...
 155 2011-07-31 01:02:38 <BlueMatt> needs fixed to say the least
 156 2011-07-31 01:03:38 <phantomcircuit> im fairly certain fixing it with the current code base is unpossible
 157 2011-07-31 01:03:50 <BlueMatt> first of all, unpossible isnt a word...
 158 2011-07-31 01:04:03 <jrmithdobbs> eh it could be fixed
 159 2011-07-31 01:04:06 <BlueMatt> secondly, that might be true of net code, Id agree that needs redone from the ground up
 160 2011-07-31 01:04:14 <BlueMatt> wallet code is quite nice
 161 2011-07-31 01:04:18 <BlueMatt> thanks to sipa
 162 2011-07-31 01:04:19 <jrmithdobbs> but yes, it would basically be a rewrite of the netcode
 163 2011-07-31 01:04:28 <BlueMatt> main code is also working great
 164 2011-07-31 01:04:38 <BlueMatt> Im working on a nice lib for them all to talk to each other
 165 2011-07-31 01:04:43 <BlueMatt> then net redo should be easy
 166 2011-07-31 01:06:51 <cjdelisle> ooo modular :)
 167 2011-07-31 01:07:19 <BlueMatt> but first Im gonna get these damn unit tests to build...
 168 2011-07-31 01:07:38 <BlueMatt> so I can write a unit test for the transaction stuff we saw a couple days ago and can submit a patch to fix it
 169 2011-07-31 01:09:46 <erus`> what testing system are you using?
 170 2011-07-31 01:09:56 <BlueMatt> the one already in bitcoin
 171 2011-07-31 01:09:57 <BlueMatt> boost
 172 2011-07-31 01:11:08 <erus`> o i didnt see it
 173 2011-07-31 01:11:22 <BlueMatt> its not anything but a framework atm
 174 2011-07-31 01:11:49 <BlueMatt> but hopefully in a sec, Ill have a working pull req with vegard's unit test and mine
 175 2011-07-31 01:15:34 markio has joined
 176 2011-07-31 01:16:01 <markio> any updates on mybitcoin.com?
 177 2011-07-31 01:16:20 <jrmithdobbs> update on what
 178 2011-07-31 01:16:39 <markio> Where it went, what's going on
 179 2011-07-31 01:17:02 <cjdelisle> I was thinking earlier there's something kind of synister in the name MYbitcoin
 180 2011-07-31 01:17:15 <Graet> hehehe
 181 2011-07-31 01:17:32 <cjdelisle> kind of like minenow-bitbank.com
 182 2011-07-31 01:18:16 <markio> but that's the only update so far?
 183 2011-07-31 01:18:47 <cjdelisle> I've not heard anything, just my own mouthdiarrea
 184 2011-07-31 01:18:57 <markio> :(
 185 2011-07-31 01:19:17 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 186 2011-07-31 01:19:37 <jrmithdobbs> oh the site with lots of people's money in it that noone knew who ran and could never get in contact with it's owner ever? it disappeared?
 187 2011-07-31 01:19:40 <jrmithdobbs> SHOCKING
 188 2011-07-31 01:20:18 <BlueMatt> people have been saying dont use mybitcoin for some time now
 189 2011-07-31 01:22:52 brunner has joined
 190 2011-07-31 01:23:28 <phantomcircuit> otoh some people have been saying to use it
 191 2011-07-31 01:23:29 <phantomcircuit> so
 192 2011-07-31 01:23:30 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 193 2011-07-31 01:23:41 <BlueMatt> idiots have been saying to use it...
 194 2011-07-31 01:23:49 <phantomcircuit> honestly i thought gavin ran it for a while
 195 2011-07-31 01:24:01 <BlueMatt> you fail to listen to virtually anyone with a common sense, its your fault
 196 2011-07-31 01:24:18 <markio> lol
 197 2011-07-31 01:24:27 <Tril> anybody try calling the phone number in WHOIS?
 198 2011-07-31 01:25:35 <markio> that would be a tremendous hit to the bitcoin community
 199 2011-07-31 01:25:40 <nanotube> <BlueMatt> [18:35:42] nanotube: ok, nightlies starting tomorrow are pgp signed <- nice! :)
 200 2011-07-31 01:25:56 gjs278 has joined
 201 2011-07-31 01:25:57 <BlueMatt> should be by now...
 202 2011-07-31 01:26:04 <BlueMatt> using a key which my main key signed
 203 2011-07-31 01:26:25 <BlueMatt> havnt bothered to check that everything worked, just saw the .asc files and assumed it was good
 204 2011-07-31 01:26:49 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 205 2011-07-31 01:29:00 <phantomcircuit> you know what they say about assumptions
 206 2011-07-31 01:29:05 pwrcycle has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 207 2011-07-31 01:29:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: um, gavin promoted the crap out of mybitcoin
 208 2011-07-31 01:29:18 <markio> they make an ass out of bluematt
 209 2011-07-31 01:29:24 <jrmithdobbs> and never backed off of that as far as i know
 210 2011-07-31 01:29:29 <BlueMatt> well half of what I do makes me look like an ass, so why start caring now?
 211 2011-07-31 01:29:43 <jrmithdobbs> that's the spirit! (seriously)
 212 2011-07-31 01:29:46 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: well for a long time they were responding to email (somewhat) promptly
 213 2011-07-31 01:29:47 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i was actually going to say
 214 2011-07-31 01:29:56 <phantomcircuit> they're usually right unless you're stupid as shit
 215 2011-07-31 01:30:13 <BlueMatt> well Ive proven to be just that on many occasions...
 216 2011-07-31 01:30:28 <phantomcircuit> lulz
 217 2011-07-31 01:30:29 <BlueMatt> when they stopped responding, i think pretty much everyone stopped pimping them
 218 2011-07-31 01:30:30 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ++
 219 2011-07-31 01:30:59 <jrmithdobbs> i stopped mentioning them after the gox crap
 220 2011-07-31 01:31:12 <jrmithdobbs> when they silently patched a csrf before i could report it with no notification to their users ;p
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 230 2011-07-31 01:53:04 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  something still need tested?
 231 2011-07-31 01:53:22 <BlueMatt> if you could test make -f makefile.osx test_bitcoin, that would be nice
 232 2011-07-31 01:53:51 <b4epoche_> test_bitcoin?
 233 2011-07-31 01:54:03 <BlueMatt> yea, the test suite
 234 2011-07-31 01:54:08 <BlueMatt> unit test suite
 235 2011-07-31 01:55:59 <b4epoche_> for what 'versino'
 236 2011-07-31 01:56:14 <BlueMatt> git head
 237 2011-07-31 01:56:15 <BlueMatt> or 0.3.24
 238 2011-07-31 01:56:16 <b4epoche_> latest 'nightly'?
 239 2011-07-31 01:56:19 <BlueMatt> I dont think its changed since
 240 2011-07-31 01:57:10 <BlueMatt> also, can you do the same for this version: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/testing
 241 2011-07-31 01:59:28 dvide has joined
 242 2011-07-31 01:59:43 <cjdelisle> Does anyone know if FellowTraveler the Oper-Transactions dev is around IRC?
 243 2011-07-31 02:00:41 Xenland has joined
 244 2011-07-31 02:01:28 <upb> seen him come here :)
 245 2011-07-31 02:01:49 dvide_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 246 2011-07-31 02:01:53 <upb> 31 04:57 [freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last addr  : ~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org
 247 2011-07-31 02:01:56 <upb> 31 04:57 [freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last seen  : Jul 26 13:51:34 2011 (4 days, 12:05:28 ago)
 248 2011-07-31 02:02:30 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 249 2011-07-31 02:02:42 <cjdelisle> k so his nick is "fellowtraveler"? I'll have to keep an eye out, his project is very interesting.
 250 2011-07-31 02:03:32 aasdfasdfadsf has joined
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 254 2011-07-31 02:09:05 <b4epoche_> BlueMatt:  I don't have boost_unit_test_framework
 255 2011-07-31 02:09:20 <b4epoche_> well, hold on maybe I do
 256 2011-07-31 02:10:03 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
 257 2011-07-31 02:10:15 <BlueMatt> sorry, Im off to bed, can you give me the result with ;;later tell BlueMatt foo?
 258 2011-07-31 02:10:47 Rabbit67890 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 265 2011-07-31 02:14:29 <b4epoche_> ;;later seems to work
 266 2011-07-31 02:14:29 <gribble> Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "seems" in it.  Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
 267 2011-07-31 02:14:35 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 268 2011-07-31 02:15:01 <b4epoche_> ;;later tell test_bitcoin seems to work
 269 2011-07-31 02:15:01 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 270 2011-07-31 02:15:48 <josephcp> i think you need to do ;;later tell BlueMatt test_bitcoin seems to work
 271 2011-07-31 02:16:07 <zeropointo> lol
 272 2011-07-31 02:16:09 nhodges has joined
 273 2011-07-31 02:16:17 <josephcp> also BlueMatt is still here, so you should probably just do a straight /msg
 274 2011-07-31 02:18:18 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 275 2011-07-31 02:18:44 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 277 2011-07-31 02:20:42 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 278 2011-07-31 02:21:36 <b4epoche_> see message above…  he went to bed...
 279 2011-07-31 02:22:04 <b4epoche_> and yes, I forgot to put his nick…  wonder who's going to get message
 280 2011-07-31 02:22:24 <b4epoche_> ;;later tell BlueMatt test_bitcoin from head seems to work
 281 2011-07-31 02:22:25 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 282 2011-07-31 02:23:04 <b4epoche_> ;;later tell BlueMatt your test_bitcoin needs libz (I think) in LIBS
 283 2011-07-31 02:23:04 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 284 2011-07-31 02:23:13 Rabbit67890 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 287 2011-07-31 02:24:02 <JFK911> ..later tell MagicalTux hey tradehill is having a sale
 288 2011-07-31 02:24:33 <nanotube> a sale on what? :)
 289 2011-07-31 02:24:44 <JFK911> fees, heh
 290 2011-07-31 02:26:27 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 291 2011-07-31 02:26:31 <nanotube> ah
 292 2011-07-31 02:26:47 <cjdelisle> heh
 293 2011-07-31 02:29:37 <upb> were pretty much doomed, its the blue elephant pattern http://i51.tinypic.com/2dhxvgh.png
 294 2011-07-31 02:30:43 Xenland has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 295 2011-07-31 02:32:17 <nanotube> upb: no no, it's the fat barfing bunny pattern, so we're ok!
 296 2011-07-31 02:32:53 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 297 2011-07-31 02:33:43 <random_cat> does that signal a high liklihood of a pink elephant pattern?
 298 2011-07-31 02:34:49 <CIA-103> bitcoin: phantomcircuit construct * rbd9c3d4acc03 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/net/message.py: change message.py so it can process buffers easily http://tinyurl.com/3gpm5xu
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 303 2011-07-31 02:49:07 <b4epoche_> ;;later tell BlueMatt your test_bitcoin builds with libz in LIB
 304 2011-07-31 02:49:07 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 308 2011-07-31 02:52:10 <woodruff> any markets actually sell coins for ccard without bullshit liberty account?
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 315 2011-07-31 03:02:44 <nanotube> woodruff: you're welcome to open one up - be prepared to lose a lot of money to chargebacks.
 316 2011-07-31 03:03:20 woodruff is now known as Omnicidio
 317 2011-07-31 03:04:03 <upb> haha somethings pretty screwed with bitcoin7
 318 2011-07-31 03:04:04 <upb> 31 05:54 <+amphipod> Jul31 02:55:29 b7           0.7294 @    13.30       USD
 319 2011-07-31 03:04:38 <upb> smallest ask is 13.6, biggest bid 13.47
 320 2011-07-31 03:05:43 <Omnicidio> yes, but. . i need one
 321 2011-07-31 03:06:02 <Omnicidio> however useless it is
 322 2011-07-31 03:06:50 <Omnicidio> the analogue solver spit out some coins but i need to check it
 323 2011-07-31 03:07:05 <Omnicidio> fking 140 tubes
 324 2011-07-31 03:07:26 <Omnicidio> plus the bar
 325 2011-07-31 03:08:02 <Omnicidio> if it works, it should solve each in 4 minutes
 326 2011-07-31 03:08:48 <Omnicidio> someone send me one and its data
 327 2011-07-31 03:09:09 pwrcycle has joined
 328 2011-07-31 03:09:24 <Omnicidio> coinbot@royalgardens.us
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 331 2011-07-31 03:10:36 <Omnicidio> i need to get another electric main installed, tubes are too hot
 332 2011-07-31 03:11:07 <Omnicidio> anyone else build nonlinear solvers?
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 344 2011-07-31 03:26:20 <Omnicidio> bbl lava
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 363 2011-07-31 04:12:25 <aviadbd> so.. what does it mean that the cg-miner says "work will be refreshed every 4000 ms"?
 364 2011-07-31 04:12:41 <aviadbd> that means that "getwork" is called every 4 seconds, no matter how many nonces the miner went through?
 365 2011-07-31 04:14:51 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * ra4b85b..4e1658 poclbm-personal/ (5 files): (5 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3kqqyk5
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 373 2011-07-31 04:37:58 <TuxBlackEdo> what is lukejr's poclbm?
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 378 2011-07-31 04:44:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * rc9cfb1232976 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: Merge branch 'bugfix_no_update_when_work_already_queued' into combo http://tinyurl.com/42qsdq2
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 386 2011-07-31 04:54:51 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r8c40cb8ca5c3 poclbm-personal/BitcoinMiner.py: Merge branch 'bugfix_no_update_when_work_already_queued' into combo http://tinyurl.com/3fq6kjc
 387 2011-07-31 04:55:21 <aviadbd> guys?
 388 2011-07-31 04:56:50 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 390 2011-07-31 05:00:44 <forrestv> aviadbd, yes, though it might just ignore that if long polling is enabled
 391 2011-07-31 05:01:02 <aviadbd> Hmm. Okay.
 392 2011-07-31 05:05:19 <aviadbd> Now I need help with this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6887620/using-midstate-in-cc-sha256
 393 2011-07-31 05:05:20 <aviadbd> :)
 394 2011-07-31 05:05:41 <aviadbd> but I've got to go - cya !
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 411 2011-07-31 05:24:50 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r36f702955014 poclbm-personal/ (BitcoinMiner.py HttpTransport.py): Merge branch 'bugfix_no_update_when_work_already_queued' into combo http://tinyurl.com/3lvhde2
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 418 2011-07-31 05:32:17 <luke-jr> forrestv: I don't think it does, actually :x
 419 2011-07-31 05:34:22 <luke-jr> if anyone wants to help me debug this pushpool-dies-when-we-find-a-block issue, mine on 67.77.87.241 (with failover to Eligius)
 420 2011-07-31 05:34:30 <luke-jr> NOTE: this is testnet, and you don't get anything for it
 421 2011-07-31 05:35:48 <luke-jr> doh, wrong channel
 422 2011-07-31 05:35:56 <luke-jr> but I don't mind help from here either XD
 423 2011-07-31 05:38:32 <forrestv> ah ... i'm sure at least one miner does, though
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 432 2011-07-31 06:36:52 <coingenuity> hey luke-jr you awake?
 433 2011-07-31 06:37:01 <luke-jr> …
 434 2011-07-31 06:37:13 <coingenuity> where do I know your name from?
 435 2011-07-31 06:40:05 <luke-jr> who knows, I'm everywhere
 436 2011-07-31 06:40:30 <coingenuity> hmm
 437 2011-07-31 06:40:38 <coingenuity> very interesting, wireshark for bitcoin's protocol
 438 2011-07-31 06:41:04 <coingenuity> you're not the guy who started the ASIC cluster, are you?
 439 2011-07-31 06:41:29 <coingenuity> also very interesting, wordpress btc plugin...
 440 2011-07-31 06:41:34 <coingenuity> i like your projects
 441 2011-07-31 06:41:42 <luke-jr> no
 442 2011-07-31 06:41:54 <luke-jr> my Bitcoin-related projects are mainly Spesmilo and Eligius
 443 2011-07-31 06:42:02 <luke-jr> nothing to do with wireshark or wordpress
 444 2011-07-31 06:42:13 <luke-jr> and TBC ofc
 445 2011-07-31 06:42:39 <coingenuity> oh, you just manage a bunch of btc related gits?
 446 2011-07-31 06:43:51 Myckel has joined
 447 2011-07-31 06:44:24 <luke-jr> coingenuity: oh, BitGit is just a mirror of everything
 448 2011-07-31 06:45:55 <coingenuity> ah, I see.....here I was thinking you were one productive-ass mofo lol
 449 2011-07-31 06:46:32 <coingenuity> I know what Eligius is, what's Spesmilo about? the bitcoin.it article is....lacking in explaination
 450 2011-07-31 06:46:55 <coingenuity> is it just an RPC client?
 451 2011-07-31 06:47:09 <luke-jr> more or less
 452 2011-07-31 06:47:25 <luke-jr> it can manage its own bitcoind too if you want it to
 453 2011-07-31 06:47:34 <coingenuity> ah, OK.
 454 2011-07-31 06:47:37 <coingenuity> that comes in handy
 455 2011-07-31 06:49:08 <coingenuity> mind if I ask....how's it been for you devving open source for the BTC community, donation wise?
 456 2011-07-31 06:49:11 Rabbit67890 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 458 2011-07-31 06:49:51 <luke-jr> coingenuity: in a word: terrible :p
 459 2011-07-31 06:50:41 <coingenuity> I'm interested in open-sourcing some of my software but running everything closed-source SaaS seems to be the only way to do it....seems to be against the ethos of the bitcoin development types but I don't have much of a choice it seems
 460 2011-07-31 06:51:36 <coingenuity> FYI, Spesmilo could become very useful to me in a project I'm rolling out in the next couple of days/weeks depending on what kind of infusion I can raise, but if I do start generating some revenue and Spesmilo helps I'll donate some BTC your way
 461 2011-07-31 06:51:54 <coingenuity> <<<poor software dev
 462 2011-07-31 06:52:05 <coingenuity> I understand where you're coming from :)\
 463 2011-07-31 06:53:25 <luke-jr> coingenuity: what software?
 464 2011-07-31 06:54:02 <coingenuity> For example...one thing that would really come in handy for folks right now is my bitcoin babysitter
 465 2011-07-31 06:54:15 <luke-jr> O.o
 466 2011-07-31 06:54:30 <coingenuity> HFT autotrader to move against market positions to maximize profits in volatile markets
 467 2011-07-31 06:54:43 <coingenuity> check the spot price
 468 2011-07-31 06:54:56 <coingenuity> people would have been stabilizing the market by using my app over the last few hours
 469 2011-07-31 06:55:17 <coingenuity> (volatility from the mybitcoin scandal)
 470 2011-07-31 06:56:37 <luke-jr> is there actually a scandal? or just overreaction to their site being down?
 471 2011-07-31 06:57:17 <coingenuity> I'm a web-app guy...if I had that much BTC liquid, my site would <b>never</b> go down
 472 2011-07-31 06:57:59 <coingenuity> shit, I'd have the most redundant system you could imagine in your life. Even failover DNS and SSL certs, etc.
 473 2011-07-31 06:58:21 <coingenuity> so them being offline for a couple days is a scandal in and of itself
 474 2011-07-31 06:58:44 <vragnaroda> luke-jr: so far, probably just an overreaction, but the whole model is kinda suspicious, so who knows?
 475 2011-07-31 06:59:06 <[Tycho]> Keeping your BTC in some third-party service that you know nothing about is careless.
 476 2011-07-31 06:59:33 <coingenuity> suspicion aside, this is the first major e-wallet outage, so it's big news for the bitcoin community
 477 2011-07-31 06:59:58 <coingenuity> aka scandalous, regardless of any impropriety on the part of mybitcoin.com
 478 2011-07-31 07:00:03 <coingenuity> :D
 479 2011-07-31 07:00:04 <[Tycho]> I need to implement something to prevent people from keeping money in deepbit :)
 480 2011-07-31 07:00:21 <[Tycho]> And from sending rewards to temporary addresses.
 481 2011-07-31 07:00:26 <coingenuity> you can use some of my code tycho
 482 2011-07-31 07:00:33 <coingenuity> what's deepbit written in, php?
 483 2011-07-31 07:00:47 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: what's wrong with temporary addresses?
 484 2011-07-31 07:00:49 <[Tycho]> Are you kidding ? :)
 485 2011-07-31 07:01:08 <coingenuity> to me or like tycho lol
 486 2011-07-31 07:01:20 <vragnaroda> isn't that MagicalTux's thing on the forums? “You can do anything in PHP!” or something like that?
 487 2011-07-31 07:01:23 <[Tycho]> coingenuity, to you.
 488 2011-07-31 07:01:40 <luke-jr> trying to write a pool in PHP = lol
 489 2011-07-31 07:01:51 <[Tycho]> Yes, almost anything. But sometimes it doesn't fits the task.
 490 2011-07-31 07:01:53 <coingenuity> i'm talking about the front-end luke
 491 2011-07-31 07:01:57 <coingenuity> not the backend
 492 2011-07-31 07:02:17 <luke-jr> letting the front-end make payouts = lol ;)
 493 2011-07-31 07:02:27 <[Tycho]> Oh, that's LISP trying to emulate Apache with PHP
 494 2011-07-31 07:02:45 <[Tycho]> What your code you are talking about ?
 495 2011-07-31 07:03:02 <coingenuity> oh, interesting.
 496 2011-07-31 07:03:59 <coingenuity> i have some code to automate withdrawals to mtgox from bitcoind
 497 2011-07-31 07:04:31 <coingenuity> part of my experiments with HFT
 498 2011-07-31 07:04:56 <coingenuity> but it's useless to you since you're running lisp
 499 2011-07-31 07:04:59 <coingenuity> :)
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 503 2011-07-31 07:11:27 <lfm> what's a temporary address. my understanding is all addresses are permanent
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 506 2011-07-31 07:13:30 <coingenuity> lfm bitcoin service providers circulate a bunch of addresses amongst users. they'll assign one from their keypool to a user temporarily, but recycle it later on
 507 2011-07-31 07:14:35 <mabus> where can i find out more about when the client will let me send a tx without a fee
 508 2011-07-31 07:14:39 <mabus> i have not been able to get a straight answer anywhere
 509 2011-07-31 07:14:47 <lfm> why cant they just make new ones when they need new ones?
 510 2011-07-31 07:15:18 <lfm> mabus there are no straight answers
 511 2011-07-31 07:16:30 <lfm> seems pretty stupid to reuse addresses for different things
 512 2011-07-31 07:16:43 <mabus> that was a pretty gay answer
 513 2011-07-31 07:17:06 <[Tycho]> lfm, some service providers think that this is "not secure" :)
 514 2011-07-31 07:17:41 <[Tycho]> mabus, it depends on your client's will and network rules.
 515 2011-07-31 07:18:07 <lfm> huh? who is this fool. let me at em to smarten em up.
 516 2011-07-31 07:18:45 <mabus> okay and where is the source for these rules
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 518 2011-07-31 07:19:14 <lfm> mabus the source is where you find all the source. it is bitcoin(d)
 519 2011-07-31 07:19:24 <mabus> big tree
 520 2011-07-31 07:19:30 <lfm> yup
 521 2011-07-31 07:19:35 <mabus> 'i have no clue' or not saying anything is an acceptable answer
 522 2011-07-31 07:19:37 <mabus> thanks
 523 2011-07-31 07:20:03 QueryTom3000 has joined
 524 2011-07-31 07:20:08 <lfm> mabus its complex, if you want a simple answer I cant help
 525 2011-07-31 07:20:14 RenaKunisaki has joined
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 527 2011-07-31 07:20:57 <mabus> i was asking for where i could read the complex answer
 528 2011-07-31 07:21:06 <[Tycho]> mabus, in the source.
 529 2011-07-31 07:21:23 <mabus> where, in the source
 530 2011-07-31 07:21:34 <lfm> in the source to bitcoin. you can download it from the home page at bitcoin.org
 531 2011-07-31 07:21:45 <mabus> i have the source
 532 2011-07-31 07:21:52 <mabus> thats fine if you guys have no idea
 533 2011-07-31 07:21:54 <mabus> i will look for myself later
 534 2011-07-31 07:21:55 <[Tycho]> mabus, usually you can send free TX unless it's too big (size in bytes, not bitcoins) or too small (less than 0.01 BTC).
 535 2011-07-31 07:21:57 <lfm> then you have the answer
 536 2011-07-31 07:22:15 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki transaction fee
 537 2011-07-31 07:22:16 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Jul 23, 2011 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
 538 2011-07-31 07:22:22 <nanotube> mabus: ^ that's a decent overview
 539 2011-07-31 07:22:25 <lfm> also depends how many bytes of txn since the last bl0ock
 540 2011-07-31 07:23:24 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 541 2011-07-31 07:23:29 <[Tycho]> That's not the strict rule.
 542 2011-07-31 07:24:01 <lfm> you can always send a txn without a fee. it may or may not get "confirmed" in a block in a reasonable time depending on your reasonableness
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 546 2011-07-31 07:27:49 <lfm> A quote I justcame across seems appropriate "True understanding destroys certianty."
 547 2011-07-31 07:28:11 <Namegduf> A fallibilist after my own heart.
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 549 2011-07-31 07:28:48 Tiggr is now known as MrTiggr
 550 2011-07-31 07:29:01 <lfm> you know Godel?
 551 2011-07-31 07:31:52 <Namegduf> Ah, that was a quote from him?
 552 2011-07-31 07:32:05 <nanotube> lfm: and the key takeaway from that quote is, the person doesn't know how to spell 'certainty' ? :D
 553 2011-07-31 07:32:13 <lfm> not really but they relate in my mind.
 554 2011-07-31 07:32:17 <Namegduf> I'm assuming it was rewritten
 555 2011-07-31 07:32:30 <Namegduf> If not they can't be after my own heart anymore.
 556 2011-07-31 07:32:56 <lfm> oh, please dont blame the source for my typos.
 557 2011-07-31 07:33:17 <Namegduf> Anyways, I don't think they do
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 560 2011-07-31 07:33:49 <Namegduf> The lack of any certainty is distinct from showing that at least *something* can't be certain even given axioms.
 561 2011-07-31 07:34:06 <lfm> they relate in my mind via the "uncertainty principle" of course.
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 563 2011-07-31 07:34:46 <Namegduf> The uncertainty principle is entirely unnecessary for certainty to be impossible
 564 2011-07-31 07:34:57 <Namegduf> Logic itself provides reason.
 565 2011-07-31 07:35:29 <lfm> It isnt saying there is no certainty possible. But certainty only exists in a lack of understanding.
 566 2011-07-31 07:36:03 <Namegduf> I was referring to certainty in a formal meaning
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 569 2011-07-31 07:36:56 <Namegduf> Nevermind, not worth it.
 570 2011-07-31 07:37:09 <lfm> if certainty is impossible then it is a concept without an example which to me is an oxymoron
 571 2011-07-31 07:38:00 <Namegduf> "without an example"?
 572 2011-07-31 07:38:18 <Namegduf> "oxymoron"?
 573 2011-07-31 07:38:32 <Namegduf> Please define the words "concept" and "example" for me
 574 2011-07-31 07:38:41 <Namegduf> Because "oxymoron" means "contradictory by definition"
 575 2011-07-31 07:38:47 <lfm> Id rather not.
 576 2011-07-31 07:38:52 <Namegduf> ANd I want to know what definitions you're using for those two which are contradictory by definition
 577 2011-07-31 07:39:26 <Namegduf> Also I don't think I've ever seen the word oxymoron applied to anything not a combination of two words, "self-contradictory" is favoured for words which are, well, that.
 578 2011-07-31 07:40:46 <lfm> yes well I admit to loose use of the language.
 579 2011-07-31 07:41:01 <Namegduf> Well, I don't understand what you mean.
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 581 2011-07-31 07:41:41 <Namegduf> I was referring to logical certainty not conditional on the assumption of any axioms.
 582 2011-07-31 07:41:48 <Namegduf> i.e. something being logically proven.
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 584 2011-07-31 07:42:21 <lfm> if certainty is impossible then what is it that we call certainty? That which we (mistakenly?) call certainty sure does seem to exist.
 585 2011-07-31 07:42:35 <Namegduf> Things don't have to exist to be concepts, dude
 586 2011-07-31 07:42:40 <Namegduf> Have you ever read a fictional book?
 587 2011-07-31 07:42:51 <lfm> fictions exist.
 588 2011-07-31 07:43:10 <Namegduf> They're a subset of concepts.
 589 2011-07-31 07:43:38 <lfm> so what do you mean by impossible?
 590 2011-07-31 07:43:41 <Namegduf> Abstract ideas also exist, but don't have to have real world examples.
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 593 2011-07-31 07:44:38 <Namegduf> I was referring to logical certainty not conditional on the assumption of any axioms, i.e. something being logically proven unconditionally (which is conceivable and an entirely valid concept).
 594 2011-07-31 07:44:55 <Namegduf> It's impossible, though, because of how logic works.
 595 2011-07-31 07:45:15 <Namegduf> Logic can only prove that given A, B, and C, X, Y, and Z must also be true.
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 599 2011-07-31 07:45:58 <Namegduf> You can build chains, but all your statements are only valid assuming the initial A, B, and C.
 600 2011-07-31 07:46:34 <Namegduf> And if those are wrong, you can be wrong.
 601 2011-07-31 07:46:43 <lfm> certainty is just a beleif which we are not willing to give up.
 602 2011-07-31 07:47:15 <lfm> it may be a premise, not always a conclusion
 603 2011-07-31 07:47:30 <Namegduf> I apologise for getting my logic in your diatribe, I'll back out now.
 604 2011-07-31 07:47:49 <vragnaroda> lol
 605 2011-07-31 07:48:42 <Namegduf> My point was that all knowledge is conditional, even if you never bothered to note down the assumptions you made, and thus can be wrong.
 606 2011-07-31 07:49:02 <Namegduf> It is not, essentially, a possibility worth caring about, though. :P
 607 2011-07-31 07:49:18 <lfm> actually I suspet we agree on principles, just disagree on some of the terminology
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 610 2011-07-31 07:50:51 <lfm> some assumptions we are not willing to consider being possibly wrong tho.
 611 2011-07-31 07:51:19 <Namegduf> Well, yeah. That a single objective reality exists to begin with is one.
 612 2011-07-31 07:51:40 <Namegduf> It's just not worth mentioning "that's only if there's a single objective reality".
 613 2011-07-31 07:52:21 <Namegduf> You just have to accept that you can't prove there is and take it as a working assumption.
 614 2011-07-31 07:52:39 <lfm> and 2 + 2 = 4 evn if some try to break it down into simpler steps
 615 2011-07-31 07:52:52 <Namegduf> Math is weird
 616 2011-07-31 07:53:35 <lfm> math may be the major source of my own weirdness.
 617 2011-07-31 07:54:03 <Namegduf> That statement boils down to a tautology.
 618 2011-07-31 07:54:20 * vragnaroda boils some tautologies for breakfast.
 619 2011-07-31 07:54:31 <Namegduf> + (given <definition of +>), with the values 2 and 2, gives 4
 620 2011-07-31 07:54:31 <lfm> yum
 621 2011-07-31 07:54:46 <Namegduf> Math is basically an exercise in totally arbitrary definitions and numbers and their results
 622 2011-07-31 07:55:13 <lfm> and the concepts of numbers and operations on them
 623 2011-07-31 07:55:47 <Namegduf> The operations with totally arbitrary definitions, yes.
 624 2011-07-31 07:55:56 <Namegduf> The numbers are similarly interestingly defined.
 625 2011-07-31 07:55:58 <lfm> and the realy weird part is they seem so strongly linked to your objective reality
 626 2011-07-31 07:56:01 <Namegduf> are you familiar with induction?
 627 2011-07-31 07:56:05 <Namegduf> And yes, that is the weird part.
 628 2011-07-31 07:57:00 <Namegduf> Math is basically Logic: The Game. You take definitions of what a set is, and of particular sets, and of operations using these sets, and you show they imply a bunch of things.
 629 2011-07-31 07:57:35 <Namegduf> All of it with at least no connection to the real world in terms of definitions.
 630 2011-07-31 07:57:41 dubious_ has left ()
 631 2011-07-31 07:57:46 <Namegduf> But things in the real world obey according to the resulting rules.
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 634 2011-07-31 07:59:55 <lfm> or is it that we only accept rules wich conform to our experience and resist rules which we dont have experience. (ie we resist the weirdness of quantum mechainics)
 635 2011-07-31 08:00:11 <Namegduf> I'm unable to parse that sentence.
 636 2011-07-31 08:00:42 <Namegduf> I don't have sufficient context to guess what actual operation is (or is not) being done by whom at "accept rules">
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 639 2011-07-31 08:01:44 <lfm> are we shaping our veiw of reality with math or is reality shaping or math to descripbe itself.
 640 2011-07-31 08:02:17 <Namegduf> "reality shaping our math" is still too vague.
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 642 2011-07-31 08:02:59 <Namegduf> One of the major other assumptions is that reality is basically logical
 643 2011-07-31 08:03:22 <Namegduf> Math being basically a giant exercise of logic, anything else logical which fits into the same reasoning used should spit out the same results
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 645 2011-07-31 08:04:01 <Namegduf> That's part of the way logic works (which is in itself an assumption but one that works as well as the others so far)
 646 2011-07-31 08:04:23 <Namegduf> The weird part is where you do really arcane things with math and find it has real world implications
 647 2011-07-31 08:04:23 <lfm> do we select matematic priciples which coincide with our veiw of reality and reject principles of math which might describe things just because we dont perceive those things (qm again)
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 649 2011-07-31 08:04:37 <Namegduf> QM has absolutely no relation to any of this.
 650 2011-07-31 08:04:48 <Namegduf> Stop trying to crash physics and philosophy into each other
 651 2011-07-31 08:04:51 <Namegduf> It doesn't work
 652 2011-07-31 08:05:18 <lfm> physics is the main point of collision between math and reality in my veiw
 653 2011-07-31 08:05:49 <Namegduf> It's one of the various applications of logic, including math, to reality.
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 655 2011-07-31 08:06:39 <Namegduf> The acceptance or lack thereof of any of its conclusions by the general populace say nothing about logic itself. In fact, nothing they do ever implies anything about logic.
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 657 2011-07-31 08:07:06 <Namegduf> QM does not contain mathematical principles
 658 2011-07-31 08:07:11 <Namegduf> It contains theories about the universe
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 662 2011-07-31 08:07:38 <lfm> priciples of randomness and probability certainly are math
 663 2011-07-31 08:07:58 <Namegduf> Which "principles"?
 664 2011-07-31 08:08:06 <Namegduf> I've never heard of anything referred to by those names.
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 666 2011-07-31 08:08:55 <Namegduf> I've also never heard QM contain any definitions of anything relating to probability, merely assertions that the universe operates in a probablistic manner.
 667 2011-07-31 08:09:19 ByronJohnson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 668 2011-07-31 08:09:56 <lfm> seems like you're saying particles dont act the way the QM guys think they act.
 669 2011-07-31 08:10:05 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.129.178|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 670 2011-07-31 08:10:12 <Namegduf> Er
 671 2011-07-31 08:10:18 <Namegduf> I don't know how you got that from what I said
 672 2011-07-31 08:10:26 <Namegduf> But no, that is not even related to anything I meant
 673 2011-07-31 08:10:38 <Namegduf> I said that QM says absolutely squat all that relates to math.
 674 2011-07-31 08:11:03 <Namegduf> Math makes definitions, and then shows what those definitions result in. Physics tries to figure out if parts of the universe meet those definitions, and thus are subject to the resulting logically derived rules.
 675 2011-07-31 08:11:18 <lfm> when qm predicts the decay of a atom and we measure the radioactivity of a group of thos atoms we are doing math I think.
 676 2011-07-31 08:11:26 <Namegduf> Whether a theory in physics is correct, or incorrect, or accepted, or not, has absolutely no principles for hte underlying mathematics.
 677 2011-07-31 08:11:32 * vragnaroda is surprised this discussion is still going on.
 678 2011-07-31 08:12:04 <Namegduf> You are USING mathematics, yes.
 679 2011-07-31 08:12:17 * vragnaroda doesn't math.
 680 2011-07-31 08:12:36 <Namegduf> The correctness of your application of it says nothing at all about the mathematics
 681 2011-07-31 08:12:46 * lfm pitties vragnaroda 
 682 2011-07-31 08:12:53 <vragnaroda> *pities
 683 2011-07-31 08:12:55 <vragnaroda> holy fuck
 684 2011-07-31 08:13:16 <lfm> its just an accident the math works?
 685 2011-07-31 08:13:43 <Namegduf> I don't see how that has anything to do with what I said either.
 686 2011-07-31 08:13:49 <vragnaroda> how would you go about providing evidence for that one way or the other?
 687 2011-07-31 08:13:55 <Namegduf> Could you like, read everything from "Math makes definitions" again
 688 2011-07-31 08:13:59 <Namegduf> And pretend I repeated it?
 689 2011-07-31 08:14:06 <Namegduf> Because I don't feel like spamming it
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 691 2011-07-31 08:14:55 <Namegduf> Math works because it's a really weirdass way of showing that anything meeting certain logical conditions has certain behaviour when subjected to certain operations as defined
 692 2011-07-31 08:15:09 <Namegduf> And parts of the real world meet those conditions.
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 694 2011-07-31 08:15:43 <Namegduf> You can add and subtract amounts of physical objects because amounts of physical objects meet the mathematical definition of natural numbers, and thus are subject to properties proven about the natural numbers.
 695 2011-07-31 08:15:54 <lfm> yes, that wierdass way indicates there is something mathematical at the very basis of our reality
 696 2011-07-31 08:16:11 <Namegduf> Not really
 697 2011-07-31 08:16:19 <Namegduf> It appearing to work assumes that our reality is logical
 698 2011-07-31 08:16:29 <Namegduf> Logic being the underpinning of math, as well, and what it expresses
 699 2011-07-31 08:16:50 <lfm> logic is just stripped down math
 700 2011-07-31 08:17:24 <Namegduf> No, math is the application of logical principles given arbitrary definitions.
 701 2011-07-31 08:17:53 <lfm> when you use phrases like "appearing to work" it seems you are saying it is some sort od illusion rather than reality?
 702 2011-07-31 08:18:26 <Namegduf> No.
 703 2011-07-31 08:18:28 <vragnaroda> no, it means he's not implying agency in the universe
 704 2011-07-31 08:18:46 <Namegduf> I'm referring back to the whole "assuming things about the universe which certainly appear to be true" thing.
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 706 2011-07-31 08:19:14 <vragnaroda> Namegduf: it's turtles all the way down
 707 2011-07-31 08:19:30 <lfm> and yet we dont seem to get very far assuming the opposite
 708 2011-07-31 08:19:38 pyro__ is now known as Guest52015
 709 2011-07-31 08:19:38 <Namegduf> What's your point?
 710 2011-07-31 08:20:31 <lfm> maybe that math is more "real" than you want to admit
 711 2011-07-31 08:20:55 <lfm> its not pure abstractions of philosophy
 712 2011-07-31 08:21:00 <Namegduf> By what definition of "math", and what definition of "real"?
 713 2011-07-31 08:21:16 <Namegduf> What physical law or state of reality are you suggesting exists?
 714 2011-07-31 08:21:27 <lfm> definitions are regressions I'd rather avoid
 715 2011-07-31 08:21:43 <vragnaroda> trololololololol
 716 2011-07-31 08:21:54 <Namegduf> If you use words in ways that are not valid by their traditional meaning
 717 2011-07-31 08:21:56 <Namegduf> And do not define them
 718 2011-07-31 08:22:14 <Namegduf> YOu have not made a statement I can comprehend
 719 2011-07-31 08:22:36 <lfm> math includes 2 + 2 = 4 but is not limited to just that
 720 2011-07-31 08:22:39 <OneFixt> http://www.amazon.com/Where-Mathematics-Comes-Embodied-Brings/dp/0465037704
 721 2011-07-31 08:23:23 <lfm> embodied?
 722 2011-07-31 08:23:33 <OneFixt> yes, one that is inside the human body
 723 2011-07-31 08:24:04 <OneFixt> this causes many mathematical principles to be based on metaphors with the body's senses
 724 2011-07-31 08:24:08 <Namegduf> Simply put, math shows that given a definition of natural numbers, and given a definition of addition, it is a tautology that 2 + 2 = 4. THis is Logic.
 725 2011-07-31 08:24:32 <Namegduf> It is applicable to the real world because things in the real world (seem to) meet the definition of natural numbers
 726 2011-07-31 08:24:47 <Namegduf> And various things we do with them seem to meet the definition of addition
 727 2011-07-31 08:25:02 <lfm> only seems?
 728 2011-07-31 08:25:13 <Namegduf> You can't prove they do.
 729 2011-07-31 08:25:23 <lfm> I can assert they do.
 730 2011-07-31 08:25:29 <Namegduf> With certainty?
 731 2011-07-31 08:25:40 <vragnaroda> you can assert that I am a pink elephant with wings, too.
 732 2011-07-31 08:25:46 <lfm> as much certainty as you will allow me.
 733 2011-07-31 08:26:18 <lfm> I wouldnt do that but on the internet nobody knows if you're a pink elephant with wings.
 734 2011-07-31 08:26:37 <Namegduf> I will not allow total certainty, because you are making assumptions like your memory being basically functional.
 735 2011-07-31 08:26:44 <vragnaroda> i'm not sure if that's particularly meaningful (a degree of certainty to which something is asserted)
 736 2011-07-31 08:27:05 <Namegduf> It doesn't mean anything, anyway.
 737 2011-07-31 08:27:17 <lfm> ah yes, degrees of certainty. there is some math for that too I beleive
 738 2011-07-31 08:27:18 <Namegduf> I said "seem to" because I can't prove they do.
 739 2011-07-31 08:27:29 <vragnaroda> How can you prove that you've been around longer than 5 seconds and God didn't magic you into your current life?
 740 2011-07-31 08:27:44 <Namegduf> I love Last Thursdayism
 741 2011-07-31 08:28:00 <lfm> I dont need to prove my own existance. I assert it. it is a premis.
 742 2011-07-31 08:28:22 <vragnaroda> *premise
 743 2011-07-31 08:28:32 <Namegduf> And thus everything based on it is based on that assumption, and thus capable of being wrong if that assumption is.
 744 2011-07-31 08:28:58 <Namegduf> So, yes, "seems to". I cannot, technically speaking, prove that counts of physical objects behave like natural numbers do.
 745 2011-07-31 08:29:02 <Namegduf> But they certainly "seem" to.
 746 2011-07-31 08:29:07 <Namegduf> It's a sensible assumption that they do.
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 748 2011-07-31 08:29:25 <OneFixt> i really recommend that book =) it talks about all this
 749 2011-07-31 08:29:41 <lfm> yes, everything I say is based on my existance. if in fact I do not exist then none of what I say has meaning. that gets us nowhere.
 750 2011-07-31 08:29:43 <OneFixt> human mathematics is inextricably linked to human bodies and our current condition
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 752 2011-07-31 08:30:15 <Namegduf> Our application of it might be, but the principles and the reasons they work are logical.
 753 2011-07-31 08:30:30 <lfm> OneFixt: um well then we would never get past base 10 and invent hexadecimal.
 754 2011-07-31 08:30:36 <OneFixt> though i would say math is a language with a grammar, and like formal logic, you can be sure that your "sentense" makes grammatical sense if you put it together properly
 755 2011-07-31 08:30:49 <Namegduf> lfm: Well, we're getting nowhere anywhere because every time I note that a statement about the universe is technically speaking just an assumption you go off gibbering about how I'm implying it isn't
 756 2011-07-31 08:30:53 <OneFixt> lfm: mathematics arose out of metaphors with the senses
 757 2011-07-31 08:31:04 <vragnaroda> lfm: base 10 is a rather recent development (proto-germanic had a base-5 number system until the romans ruined it)
 758 2011-07-31 08:31:21 <OneFixt> numbers are not "bigger" or "smaller" - that's a physical metaphor
 759 2011-07-31 08:31:28 <vragnaroda> this 10="natural human number base" claim is bullshit
 760 2011-07-31 08:31:29 <Namegduf> That's stupid
 761 2011-07-31 08:31:33 <lfm> OneFixt: I hope it has gotten beyond that to at least some extent.
 762 2011-07-31 08:31:52 <Namegduf> Bigger and smaller mean different things when applied to numbers, that's all
 763 2011-07-31 08:32:22 <Namegduf> The reasoning for porting that word to that second meaning probably WAS a physical metaphor
 764 2011-07-31 08:32:23 <OneFixt> but the ideas come from our physical senses, that's how we came up with mathematical concepts
 765 2011-07-31 08:32:51 <lfm> vragnaroda: ya, and the babylonians had a base 60 system. still 5 and multiples of 5 are based on our fingers as you say. what body part(s) are hex based on?
 766 2011-07-31 08:33:01 <Namegduf> But we certainly have a definition of bigger and smaller in standard usage for numbers, and thus they are "bigger" or "smaller".
 767 2011-07-31 08:33:16 <vragnaroda> lfm: so what about base-3 number systems in other languages?
 768 2011-07-31 08:33:26 <OneFixt> the number line is a physical metaphor as well, so are sets (metaphors for physical containers and boundaries)
 769 2011-07-31 08:33:36 <Namegduf> Um
 770 2011-07-31 08:33:41 <Namegduf> Sets are about combinations of objects
 771 2011-07-31 08:33:51 <Namegduf> Not about containers
 772 2011-07-31 08:33:59 <OneFixt> take a container in space
 773 2011-07-31 08:34:00 <Namegduf> They also only arose relatively recently and in formal mathematics
 774 2011-07-31 08:34:04 <Namegduf> And are not used in everyday math
 775 2011-07-31 08:34:06 <lfm> Namegduf: but why do we need to say that it "seems" 2 + 2 = 4 in the real world as in abstract math. can't we say it is?
 776 2011-07-31 08:34:06 <OneFixt> it has a boundary, an inside and an outside
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 778 2011-07-31 08:34:22 <Namegduf> Sets have none of those things.
 779 2011-07-31 08:34:27 <OneFixt> of course they do!
 780 2011-07-31 08:34:31 <Namegduf> Nope.
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 782 2011-07-31 08:34:50 <Namegduf> Sets have no boundaries. You're confusing them with Venn diagrams, which are just a simple way to explain them using a physical metaphor.
 783 2011-07-31 08:34:50 <OneFixt> they have direct metaphorical mappings to those things
 784 2011-07-31 08:34:58 <Namegduf> Sets. Have. No. Boundaries.
 785 2011-07-31 08:35:01 <Namegduf> They JUST have elements.
 786 2011-07-31 08:35:02 <Namegduf> That's it.
 787 2011-07-31 08:35:12 <Namegduf> They MAY, or MAY NOT, exist in a "universe" of other elements
 788 2011-07-31 08:35:19 <Namegduf> They are quite capable of not being so
 789 2011-07-31 08:35:24 <OneFixt> In topology and mathematics in general, the boundary of a subset S of a topological space X is the set of points which can be approached both from S and from the outside of S.
 790 2011-07-31 08:35:30 <OneFixt> -wiki
 791 2011-07-31 08:35:35 <Namegduf> Sets are not a topological space.
 792 2011-07-31 08:36:04 <OneFixt> if a set did not have a "boundary" it would be everything, and could not be a subset
 793 2011-07-31 08:36:06 <Namegduf> And topology has nothing to do with them at all, it's an entirely unrelated part of mathematics.
 794 2011-07-31 08:36:12 <lfm> topology is sets tho
 795 2011-07-31 08:36:12 <Namegduf> Wrong.
 796 2011-07-31 08:36:31 <Namegduf> If a circle on a venn diagram did not have a boundary
 797 2011-07-31 08:36:34 <lfm> sets of points
 798 2011-07-31 08:36:34 <Namegduf> It would contain everything
 799 2011-07-31 08:36:46 <OneFixt> that's what i said
 800 2011-07-31 08:36:50 <Namegduf> But a set is not a circle on a venn diagram
 801 2011-07-31 08:36:57 <Namegduf> It is not essentially a set of points, it is just a set.
 802 2011-07-31 08:37:06 <Namegduf> And it just has a defined list of elements.
 803 2011-07-31 08:37:07 <OneFixt> "X is the set of points which can be approached both from S and from the outside of S"
 804 2011-07-31 08:37:14 <OneFixt> x is the boundary
 805 2011-07-31 08:37:14 <Namegduf> And that has no relevance.
 806 2011-07-31 08:37:27 <lfm> yes, sets are not topology but topology is sets
 807 2011-07-31 08:37:44 <Namegduf> lfm: The second part of that sentence is not relevant.
 808 2011-07-31 08:38:02 <Namegduf> (Also wrong. is and uses are different things)
 809 2011-07-31 08:38:14 <Namegduf> OneFixt: Sets, in general, are not sets of points, and do not have boundaries.
 810 2011-07-31 08:38:27 <lfm> not relevant to your point(s) ya, ok. but perhpas onefixt was trying to fork the topic
 811 2011-07-31 08:38:42 <Namegduf> Some sets, used in specific areas of mathematics, like sets of continuous points in a space, may have boundaries.
 812 2011-07-31 08:38:44 <Namegduf> But sets do not.
 813 2011-07-31 08:38:46 <random_cat> in that case, sets are between bumps and spikes
 814 2011-07-31 08:38:48 <Namegduf> Sets only have elements.
 815 2011-07-31 08:38:53 <OneFixt> i'm just saying that all of our mathematics comes from some kind of metaphor with the physicality that we live in
 816 2011-07-31 08:39:20 <Namegduf> And I'm saying, having studied mathematics, that that's stupid.
 817 2011-07-31 08:39:27 <Namegduf> A lot of mathematical terms were invented by mathematicians
 818 2011-07-31 08:39:35 <Namegduf> Who were doing logic with existing mathematical concepts
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 821 2011-07-31 08:39:44 <Namegduf> And needed a word for something created entirely through that process
 822 2011-07-31 08:39:59 <OneFixt> when we have that, it's inherently difficult for the human mind to grasp
 823 2011-07-31 08:40:01 <lfm> yes but set theory is just one way of trying to examine the basis of math, there are other ways which are just as valid.
 824 2011-07-31 08:40:02 <Namegduf> Such things are usually the most unintuitive and painful to use, but they are a big part of mathematics proper.
 825 2011-07-31 08:40:06 <OneFixt> because the mind needs a metaphor
 826 2011-07-31 08:40:09 <Namegduf> It is inherently difficult, yes.
 827 2011-07-31 08:40:19 <OneFixt> yep we a gree there
 828 2011-07-31 08:40:27 <Namegduf> But it exists.
 829 2011-07-31 08:40:28 <OneFixt> agree*
 830 2011-07-31 08:40:53 <Namegduf> lfm: That sentence is entirely disconnected from anything else in the conversation...
 831 2011-07-31 08:41:07 <OneFixt> anyway, i joined late - what is the actual topic being debated?
 832 2011-07-31 08:41:35 <OneFixt> (although i'll maintain that every set must have a boundary)
 833 2011-07-31 08:41:36 <Namegduf> lfm is saying that Quantum Mechanics is math and people are rejecting it, redefining math because they don't like it
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 835 2011-07-31 08:41:58 <OneFixt> hrm
 836 2011-07-31 08:42:05 <Namegduf> OneFixt: Sets were part of the basic crap covered as a simple precursor to my studies.
 837 2011-07-31 08:42:15 <Namegduf> They're just an arbitrary list of elements with no duplicates.
 838 2011-07-31 08:42:28 <lfm> OneFixt: someone asked for the true story about bitcoin fees and I came out with the quote "True understanding destroys certainty."
 839 2011-07-31 08:42:29 <Namegduf> I can explain that they can't always have boundaries intuitively, I think
 840 2011-07-31 08:42:32 <Namegduf> Are you familiar with powersets?
 841 2011-07-31 08:42:33 <OneFixt> yep, i'm not saying they're advanced, i did my share of mathematics study
 842 2011-07-31 08:42:47 <Namegduf> The set of all subsets of a set?
 843 2011-07-31 08:42:52 <OneFixt> yeah
 844 2011-07-31 08:43:05 <OneFixt> btw the boundary could be the null set for some cases
 845 2011-07-31 08:43:33 <lfm> the boundry is another set
 846 2011-07-31 08:43:42 <OneFixt> naturally
 847 2011-07-31 08:44:34 <Namegduf> Yeah, okay, I've changed my mind, I'm not even going to try to work out what this definition is. I'm just going to say that a set of concepts doesn't have a boundary.
 848 2011-07-31 08:44:40 <Namegduf> And is a perfectly valid set.
 849 2011-07-31 08:44:54 <Namegduf> Or a set of logical predicates, as used for a list of rules
 850 2011-07-31 08:44:57 <OneFixt> ah i see what you're saying
 851 2011-07-31 08:45:00 <OneFixt> hmm
 852 2011-07-31 08:45:05 <lfm> perhaps you can define the boundry as that which distinguises members of the set from non-menbers?
 853 2011-07-31 08:45:21 <Namegduf> That's the rule construction of a set and is one way to build a set, but not the only way
 854 2011-07-31 08:45:25 <lfm> *never mind the typos
 855 2011-07-31 08:45:28 <Namegduf> Not all sets are defined thay way
 856 2011-07-31 08:45:29 <Namegduf> *that way
 857 2011-07-31 08:45:42 <OneFixt> yes, i was talking about sets of numbers
 858 2011-07-31 08:46:00 <Namegduf> That's a fairly limited subset of sets
 859 2011-07-31 08:46:11 <OneFixt> if you have a set [orange, penguin, 5, moon] ... yeah
 860 2011-07-31 08:46:42 <lfm> some sets can only be defined by enumeration
 861 2011-07-31 08:47:12 <Namegduf> Anyways, my point was that mathematics was used in Quantum Mechanics, but QM says nothing about mathematics.
 862 2011-07-31 08:47:45 <lfm> ie the shortest boundry or definition includes the set itself
 863 2011-07-31 08:47:45 <Namegduf> Also that mathematics isn't something accepted or rejected. It's just the application of logic to arbitrary definitions.
 864 2011-07-31 08:48:10 <OneFixt> Namegduf: agreed on that
 865 2011-07-31 08:48:11 <Namegduf> Stop making up your own definition of boundary that has nothing to do with any existing definitions in order to try to win an argument
 866 2011-07-31 08:48:40 <Namegduf> It doesn't work if it wasn't the definition of boundary used in the original claim
 867 2011-07-31 08:48:58 <OneFixt> but intuitively i would say that a boundary must exist if there is something "inside" the set and "outside" the set
 868 2011-07-31 08:49:01 <lfm> actually there are many examples of "rejected" math, non-euclidian geometry for instance was rejected for ages.
 869 2011-07-31 08:49:08 <Namegduf> OneFixt: Not all things have "position"
 870 2011-07-31 08:49:22 <Namegduf> OneFixt: And not all sets are a continuous region, amongst things which do have positions
 871 2011-07-31 08:49:27 <OneFixt> but a set necessarily defines something included in it
 872 2011-07-31 08:49:39 <Namegduf> Yes, but those somethings do not essentially have position
 873 2011-07-31 08:49:46 <OneFixt> i'm not talking about position but about inclusion/exclusion
 874 2011-07-31 08:49:52 <OneFixt> then a boundary takes on a different meaning, yes
 875 2011-07-31 08:50:02 <lfm> the set of all things without definitions?
 876 2011-07-31 08:50:13 <OneFixt> i'm approaching it froma cognitive perspective, not from any particular branch of math
 877 2011-07-31 08:50:22 <OneFixt> from a*
 878 2011-07-31 08:50:31 <Namegduf> YOu're going to have to write out a definition of "boundary"
 879 2011-07-31 08:51:00 <Namegduf> But at the very least a boundary is not part of the definition of a set, and is not part of set theory.
 880 2011-07-31 08:51:15 <lfm> OneFixt: we can have a set of say emotions without defining the emotions
 881 2011-07-31 08:51:47 <Namegduf> If you come up with a definition of "boundary" that is valid for all sets, then it is a tautology that it exists for all sets
 882 2011-07-31 08:51:51 <Namegduf> But that says nothing
 883 2011-07-31 08:52:12 <Namegduf> It is not a term used in set theory proper
 884 2011-07-31 08:52:40 <OneFixt> yes, i'm not arguing that it is
 885 2011-07-31 08:52:53 <OneFixt> just talking about the concept of boundary and that it is necessarily in the background when we think of a set
 886 2011-07-31 08:53:10 <Namegduf> I don't agree, and have never thought of it with sets.
 887 2011-07-31 08:53:42 <OneFixt> a background that we don't think of
 888 2011-07-31 08:53:45 <OneFixt> or notice
 889 2011-07-31 08:54:00 <OneFixt> just a metaphor of inclusion/exclusion
 890 2011-07-31 08:54:02 <vragnaroda> i'm not sure if that's meaningful
 891 2011-07-31 08:54:06 <OneFixt> but anyway, that's a side argument
 892 2011-07-31 08:54:10 <Namegduf> I'm sure it's not meaningful
 893 2011-07-31 08:54:16 <Namegduf> But okay, if we can move on, let's do so
 894 2011-07-31 08:54:29 <OneFixt> as for math, it's a language that follows rules
 895 2011-07-31 08:54:34 <OneFixt> very much like formal logic
 896 2011-07-31 08:54:43 <Namegduf> More, it's the making of rules and the logical reasoning with them.
 897 2011-07-31 08:54:45 <OneFixt> and very much not like an ambiguous language
 898 2011-07-31 08:54:52 <lfm> I agree with Namegduf on that we use boundries to show sets in some representations but they are not an essential part of the concept.
 899 2011-07-31 08:55:11 <Namegduf> My original point was that math works in the real world because it's like templated logic.
 900 2011-07-31 08:55:23 <OneFixt> yes i agree, they are not essential to actually doing the math, they're just something involved in the metaphor
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 902 2011-07-31 08:55:28 <Namegduf> Anything meeting the generic definitions used in math obeys the rules proven for them.
 903 2011-07-31 08:55:37 <OneFixt> i'd agree with that
 904 2011-07-31 08:55:44 <Namegduf> It works in the real world because the real world is logical.
 905 2011-07-31 08:55:55 <OneFixt> although we cannot fully prove that without being "god"
 906 2011-07-31 08:56:02 <OneFixt> because we cannot prove causality
 907 2011-07-31 08:56:06 <Namegduf> We can't, technically, prove that, no, which was one of my original statements.
 908 2011-07-31 08:56:37 <OneFixt> A -> B  could actually be C -> A and C -> B at the same time, and we'd never know
 909 2011-07-31 08:56:37 <Namegduf> We can't prove that the real world obeys logic, and we can't prove any particular aspects of it meet any particular mathematical definitions.
 910 2011-07-31 08:57:20 <OneFixt> yup
 911 2011-07-31 08:57:23 <Namegduf> The parts of math that don't seem to fit the real world, we just don't claim that the real world behaves like.
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 913 2011-07-31 08:57:51 <OneFixt> or perhaps we just haven't found the application yet
 914 2011-07-31 08:58:04 <Namegduf> The crazy comes from really long weird chains of operations involving other defined things partway through, which still result in conclusions for anything meeting a given definition.
 915 2011-07-31 08:58:11 <Namegduf> Which work.
 916 2011-07-31 08:58:24 <OneFixt> yep
 917 2011-07-31 08:58:30 <Namegduf> I tend to call those "voodoo" but it's still logic, really.
 918 2011-07-31 08:58:30 <OneFixt> that's the beauty of it, too
 919 2011-07-31 08:58:41 <lfm> Namegduf: you're constricting what is provable unessearily. in practise we prove things about reality and its mathematical nature all the time.
 920 2011-07-31 08:58:53 <Namegduf> We don't prove, we assume.
 921 2011-07-31 08:58:57 <Namegduf> And that works fine.
 922 2011-07-31 08:59:04 <OneFixt> nah you can't prove anything about reality unless you prove what consciousness is
 923 2011-07-31 08:59:21 <Namegduf> You can't prove anything without assumptions.
 924 2011-07-31 08:59:27 <Namegduf> It's just how logic works.
 925 2011-07-31 08:59:31 <OneFixt> you'd have to be outside of yourself to do that
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 927 2011-07-31 08:59:51 <Namegduf> You prove A -> B, but you can't prove A, and if you're really picky you can't prove that the -> bit, the logic, works either
 928 2011-07-31 09:00:04 <OneFixt> yep
 929 2011-07-31 09:00:18 <Namegduf> Logic is either circular, in which case it says nothing (just, it's true if it's true), or it says one assumption implies a result.
 930 2011-07-31 09:00:39 <Namegduf> That's very useful- you can show some obvious, agreed assumptions mean some useful things
 931 2011-07-31 09:00:49 <lfm> we assume gravity works or we accept that gravity works. then we should be able to accpet that the acceleration of gravity follows the math. if it isnt proven to your definition then you are using a different idea of proof to what everyone else uses.
 932 2011-07-31 09:00:51 <Namegduf> But no, you can't prove anything independent of axioms.
 933 2011-07-31 09:00:51 <OneFixt> and when you dig deep enough, philosophy, math, religion, and any science takes you to the same question of what is real and what is consciousness
 934 2011-07-31 09:01:13 <Namegduf> It's why arguing with a theist is a waste of time
 935 2011-07-31 09:01:21 <Namegduf> They have different axioms to you
 936 2011-07-31 09:01:22 <lfm> true
 937 2011-07-31 09:01:35 <Namegduf> Short of showing them self-contradictory
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 939 2011-07-31 09:01:43 <Namegduf> There's very little that could render them invalid
 940 2011-07-31 09:01:54 <OneFixt> i've found that theists and atheists generally disagree only on the definitions of words and concepts
 941 2011-07-31 09:01:57 <OneFixt> they just don't realize it
 942 2011-07-31 09:01:57 RaffleBot has joined
 943 2011-07-31 09:02:01 <lfm> Namegduf: nope self-contradictions don't bother theists! grin
 944 2011-07-31 09:02:06 <Namegduf> Hah
 945 2011-07-31 09:02:29 <OneFixt> since we're speaking in an ambigious language, we argue the existence of "god"
 946 2011-07-31 09:02:35 <OneFixt> which is not a very meaningful argument
 947 2011-07-31 09:02:47 <Namegduf> Oh, there's some name for that.
 948 2011-07-31 09:03:21 <OneFixt> but there's a definition for "god" which agrees with both the beliefs of theists and atheists quite well
 949 2011-07-31 09:03:22 <lfm> one man's delusion is another man's faith.
 950 2011-07-31 09:03:32 <Namegduf> Ignosticism
 951 2011-07-31 09:03:34 <OneFixt> nah, i think we miss the point when we argue about this
 952 2011-07-31 09:03:46 gjs278 has joined
 953 2011-07-31 09:03:50 <OneFixt> the point of religion and of science is really similar, to learn about the world
 954 2011-07-31 09:03:54 <Namegduf> The theological position that before the existence of a god can be evaluated, you have to finish defining it first.
 955 2011-07-31 09:04:19 <Namegduf> What is a god, what would it existing mean, etc.
 956 2011-07-31 09:04:44 <Namegduf> Which is technically true, but I hold that you can't prove it anyway due to the impossibility of unconditional proof
 957 2011-07-31 09:04:48 <OneFixt> perhaps by simply acknowledging that we, as humans, cannot prove our own existence is very similar to what a religious person believes when he thinks that god is "greater etc." than a human
 958 2011-07-31 09:04:54 <OneFixt> or something outside of the human world
 959 2011-07-31 09:05:17 <OneFixt> or "we cannot know god"
 960 2011-07-31 09:05:19 <OneFixt> similar idea
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 963 2011-07-31 09:06:00 <lfm> but they have a personal relationship with him anyway
 964 2011-07-31 09:06:07 <OneFixt> as do we all, since we exist
 965 2011-07-31 09:06:20 <OneFixt> but it doesn't have to be "him"
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 967 2011-07-31 09:06:27 <Namegduf> OneFixt: That's bad reasoning; there's "god" the supposed entity and "god" the concept
 968 2011-07-31 09:06:32 <Namegduf> Concepts by definition can be defined
 969 2011-07-31 09:06:44 <Namegduf> They basically ARE definitions
 970 2011-07-31 09:06:56 RaffleBot has joined
 971 2011-07-31 09:07:01 <lfm> and gods the history
 972 2011-07-31 09:07:01 <Namegduf> Ones not in words, often, but they are things conceived of.
 973 2011-07-31 09:07:51 <Namegduf> We can argue the existence/non-existence of a well-defined concept. You can talk about things outside of our ability to conceive, but the existence of such things is in itself conceivable
 974 2011-07-31 09:07:54 <OneFixt> i would venture to say that most theists and atheists misunderstand what implied by "god"
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 976 2011-07-31 09:08:02 <OneFixt> is implied*
 977 2011-07-31 09:08:41 <OneFixt> there are also things which we cannot possibly put into words but ones that we can experience
 978 2011-07-31 09:08:50 <lfm> If I say "I beleive there are no gods." do I really need to understand them all?
 979 2011-07-31 09:09:15 <OneFixt> i think that statement is talking simply about the "mytical" gods, the beings from stories
 980 2011-07-31 09:09:21 <Namegduf> No, but I'd be interested to know what you mean by "believe"
 981 2011-07-31 09:09:23 <OneFixt> and it's a rather shallow and clear statement
 982 2011-07-31 09:09:59 <lfm> well thats all I mean when I say I am an atheist
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 986 2011-07-31 09:10:34 <OneFixt> i've found that there's a trap that atheists fall into - when they disagree with religion they tend to throw out "god" with the religious ideas
 987 2011-07-31 09:10:47 <OneFixt> but "god" has nothing to do with religion or mythology
 988 2011-07-31 09:10:50 <wumpus> why wouldn't they?
 989 2011-07-31 09:10:52 <nhodges> how do i identify the from/to from this? http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/c73d94beca698a076c352bb96416932a4d52dd227e89f5fd6341372d6f993ae1
 990 2011-07-31 09:10:54 <nhodges> or is it not possible
 991 2011-07-31 09:12:08 <OneFixt> there are certain things that any individual can discover about the universe which are not taught in schools or clearly defined in books
 992 2011-07-31 09:12:25 <OneFixt> and when you dig deep enough, you become at a loss for words to describe those things
 993 2011-07-31 09:12:33 <lfm> nhodges: do a base58 eencode of the "out" keys to see where the bitcoins are going to. look up the "in" transactions to see where they are coming from.
 994 2011-07-31 09:12:57 <OneFixt> so to convey them to other people you have to talk "about" those things, and it gets messy and confusing for someone who hasn't experienced them
 995 2011-07-31 09:13:04 <wumpus> why would that need the name "god"?
 996 2011-07-31 09:13:12 <OneFixt> so if the listener takes your words literally or misinterprets them... you get a mess, like many religious interpretations
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 998 2011-07-31 09:13:18 <OneFixt> it doesn't need the name
 999 2011-07-31 09:13:28 <OneFixt> it needs no name at all, of course
1000 2011-07-31 09:13:53 <OneFixt> but in my personal definition god is a fitting name for those things, when used properly
1001 2011-07-31 09:14:03 <nhodges> out->value base58 to get wallet ids (send and receive), i got that far, but then
1002 2011-07-31 09:14:04 <OneFixt> just as a word
1003 2011-07-31 09:14:07 <lfm> I think when I say "I beleive there are no gods." it includes your abstract ideas of "god" (lower case) as well.
1004 2011-07-31 09:14:09 <nhodges> i look at in->prev_out ?
1005 2011-07-31 09:14:10 <vragnaroda> this One True Definition That No One Uses is a bit odd
1006 2011-07-31 09:14:22 <wumpus> isn't spiritualism a better word?
1007 2011-07-31 09:14:30 <OneFixt> sure, that's a good word for it, too
1008 2011-07-31 09:14:34 <Namegduf> Did someone mention Wicca?
1009 2011-07-31 09:14:39 <OneFixt> though some people have different definitions of it as well
1010 2011-07-31 09:14:44 * Namegduf just got back from the bathroom
1011 2011-07-31 09:15:03 <OneFixt> i'm trying to say that it's possible to cross over from intellectual knowledge to direct experience, which cannot be put into words
1012 2011-07-31 09:15:11 <lfm> nhodges: ya, the prev_out is a hash of another transaction that is the source(s) of the bitocins for this transaction.
1013 2011-07-31 09:15:14 <wumpus> right, but in my eyes 'god' imples an all-powerful being, using the word for something else is.. strange
1014 2011-07-31 09:15:17 <OneFixt> i can never actually explain to you in words what i mean by "god" or "spirituality"
1015 2011-07-31 09:15:42 <Namegduf> How about pictures?
1016 2011-07-31 09:15:57 <vragnaroda> lol
1017 2011-07-31 09:16:03 <lfm> nhodges: the prev_out -> n number is the output number in that previous transaction
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1020 2011-07-31 09:16:06 <nhodges> so pretty much i have to verify which wallet existed in the last transaction in this bitcoin trail/chain
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1022 2011-07-31 09:16:30 <lfm> nhodges: ya you kinda do.
1023 2011-07-31 09:16:38 <OneFixt> nope, no way to show someone other than "being" that other person
1024 2011-07-31 09:16:40 <nhodges> what if for some reason they were both in the last transaction?
1025 2011-07-31 09:16:49 <nhodges> eg: both were paid out from eligius
1026 2011-07-31 09:16:53 <nhodges> in a generated block
1027 2011-07-31 09:16:55 <nhodges> ?
1028 2011-07-31 09:16:58 <nhodges> could that happen?
1029 2011-07-31 09:17:06 <nhodges> and would there be a way to differentiate
1030 2011-07-31 09:17:32 <OneFixt> the funny thing is that people who have a certain awareness do not need to talk about it to others who have it
1031 2011-07-31 09:17:48 <lfm> nhodges: the hash would be the same, the "n" number would index each particular output value
1032 2011-07-31 09:17:49 <OneFixt> just like sighted people both see that the sky is blue (if we ignore obvious colorblindness etc.)
1033 2011-07-31 09:18:32 <OneFixt> so if a person really experiences "god" (let's not define it here), then another person who experiences "god" knows exactly what it is
1034 2011-07-31 09:18:36 <OneFixt> and they both know that they know
1035 2011-07-31 09:18:42 <OneFixt> but no way to convey that to someone who doesn't know
1036 2011-07-31 09:18:46 <nhodges> cool
1037 2011-07-31 09:18:50 <Namegduf> I had some god brownies once
1038 2011-07-31 09:18:52 <nhodges> i think i got my head wrapped around it now
1039 2011-07-31 09:18:53 <nhodges> thanks much :)
1040 2011-07-31 09:18:56 <Namegduf> They were great
1041 2011-07-31 09:19:08 <lfm> nhodges: you're welcome, have fun...
1042 2011-07-31 09:19:12 <nhodges> lol
1043 2011-07-31 09:19:29 <OneFixt> Namegduf: can't relate to that, but i'm sure someone here can
1044 2011-07-31 09:19:32 <nhodges> already am, i always have fun :D
1045 2011-07-31 09:20:57 <vragnaroda> Namegduf: brownies are good
1046 2011-07-31 09:21:15 <lfm> brownies live under mushrooms
1047 2011-07-31 09:22:40 <lfm> sez so in my monster manual
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1050 2011-07-31 09:24:00 <Graet> i agree with OneFixt , and I like brownies !
1051 2011-07-31 09:24:03 <Graet> :D
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1064 2011-07-31 09:51:11 <random_cat> i'm curious as to why wumpus thinks a god should be all powerful
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1066 2011-07-31 09:59:26 <wumpus> well yeah I guess that isn't strictly neccesary...
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1070 2011-07-31 10:01:52 <wumpus> it's one of thse words that means a different thing to everyone, I guess
1071 2011-07-31 10:02:19 <RaffleBot>  Remember, type @rafflebot to play and be sure to join #rafflebit for a live feed.
1072 2011-07-31 10:02:19 <RaffleBot>  Remember, type @rafflebot to play and be sure to join #rafflebit for a live feed.
1073 2011-07-31 10:02:19 RaffleBot has quit (Excess Flood)
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1079 2011-07-31 10:08:14 <josephcp> can you not spam rafflebot in bitoin-dev please, it's not bitcoin development related
1080 2011-07-31 10:09:32 <coingenuity> josephcp i'm testing something, didn't mean to spam him :)
1081 2011-07-31 10:09:56 <josephcp> can you test somewhere else? it definitely isn't bitcoin development related
1082 2011-07-31 10:10:09 <marf> kick this bot
1083 2011-07-31 10:10:21 <coingenuity> uh, developing a bitcoin app isn't bitcoin related? okay josephcp
1084 2011-07-31 10:10:39 <josephcp> coingenuity: advertising gambling isn't bitcoin development related
1085 2011-07-31 10:10:55 <coingenuity> lmfao
1086 2011-07-31 10:10:57 <josephcp> if you need help linking your bot to the bitcoin app that is more than welcome here
1087 2011-07-31 10:11:17 <coingenuity> i'm not advertising gambling, dude, i'm working on the service my users requested
1088 2011-07-31 10:11:28 <coingenuity> so they can see what the pot is on rafflebit
1089 2011-07-31 10:11:37 <coingenuity> and i'm testing the multichannel functionality right now
1090 2011-07-31 10:11:40 <coingenuity> aka DEVELOPING
1091 2011-07-31 10:11:53 <josephcp> can you test on another channel please?
1092 2011-07-31 10:12:07 <coingenuity> so don't tell me i don't belong in bitcoin-dev to develop, when you've been talking about religion in the dev room for 2 hours
1093 2011-07-31 10:12:12 <josephcp> this isn't a bot testing channel, you can have it join a channel like #bot-testing or something like that
1094 2011-07-31 10:12:37 <coingenuity> no, i can't
1095 2011-07-31 10:12:44 <coingenuity> because i'm testing multichannel functionality
1096 2011-07-31 10:12:50 <marf> lol
1097 2011-07-31 10:12:52 <coingenuity> but i'm done arguing with you josephchildporn
1098 2011-07-31 10:12:52 <xelister> coingenuity: I will develop my boot in your ass if you continue to spam all bitcoin channels
1099 2011-07-31 10:12:55 <coingenuity> :)
1100 2011-07-31 10:12:57 <josephcp> look, i'm trying to be as polite as possible
1101 2011-07-31 10:13:02 <wumpus> I don't see josephcp in the religion discussion at all
1102 2011-07-31 10:13:06 <coingenuity> i'm done with the dev process anyway
1103 2011-07-31 10:13:12 <josephcp> it's obvious you're not testing multichannel functionality, you're adveritising here
1104 2011-07-31 10:13:17 <Rabbit67890> ...
1105 2011-07-31 10:13:18 <josephcp> just stop it ok?
1106 2011-07-31 10:13:27 <coingenuity> LOL, dude
1107 2011-07-31 10:13:27 <Rabbit67890> he was testing the bot
1108 2011-07-31 10:13:29 <coingenuity> are you kidding
1109 2011-07-31 10:13:46 <xelister> coingenuity: we dont care about your fucking bot, go jump off a clif
1110 2011-07-31 10:13:58 <xelister> take rabbit with you
1111 2011-07-31 10:14:05 <Rabbit67890> ...
1112 2011-07-31 10:14:07 <wumpus> but  I agree that this channel is not for testing bots, doing it once was ok but please don't do it again
1113 2011-07-31 10:14:13 <Rabbit67890> i was just watching and just saw it
1114 2011-07-31 10:14:41 Stellar has joined
1115 2011-07-31 10:14:57 <coingenuity> like i said, done arguing with you
1116 2011-07-31 10:15:10 wolfspraul has joined
1117 2011-07-31 10:15:12 <coingenuity> go back to talking about god, or masturbation, or anime, or whatever you do in here
1118 2011-07-31 10:15:27 <josephcp> coingenuity: ok thanks, can you please have RaffleBot /leave this channel? Thanks!
1119 2011-07-31 10:15:43 <Rabbit67890> lol masterbstion
1120 2011-07-31 10:15:54 <xelister> I think his bot can stay if he doesnt flood
1121 2011-07-31 10:16:01 * Rabbit67890 walks away to watch
1122 2011-07-31 10:16:54 <coingenuity> lol, the bot isn't meant to flood xelister you troll
1123 2011-07-31 10:17:09 <coingenuity> it's meant to PM users when they talk to it
1124 2011-07-31 10:17:55 <coingenuity> in fact....i dumped all the main functionality from IRC dealing with channels for the most part, since the bot interacts with users one-on-one
1125 2011-07-31 10:18:30 <josephcp> right, so it's not necessary for the bot to be in this channel, and it can stay in #bitcoin, correct?
1126 2011-07-31 10:19:04 <coingenuity> nope, you're wrong
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1128 2011-07-31 10:20:10 <josephcp> ok well we're never going to be in agreement here, just a heads up that you're violating social convention by doing something like this. the channel wouldn't work if we had 100 people like you with 100 rafflebots. bye.
1129 2011-07-31 10:20:48 <coingenuity> you sound like the lady who told me i was breaking "starbucks law" a couple days ago
1130 2011-07-31 10:20:54 <Rabbit67890> lol
1131 2011-07-31 10:22:27 <lfm> the old slipery slope argument, if one happens then what happens if there is too many.
1132 2011-07-31 10:22:48 <lfm> just cuz one happens doesnt always mean there will be too many later
1133 2011-07-31 10:23:54 <coingenuity> plus, having 100 people with 100 rafflebots would mean that natural selection would kill the weak and promote the strong, thusly leading to overall better QOS for btc irc
1134 2011-07-31 10:24:04 <coingenuity> :D
1135 2011-07-31 10:24:18 <wumpus> right...
1136 2011-07-31 10:24:22 <josephcp> lfm: it's not a slippery slope argument, he's still violating social convention
1137 2011-07-31 10:24:33 <wumpus> too much philosophy too little coding here :p
1138 2011-07-31 10:24:37 <coingenuity> lmfao
1139 2011-07-31 10:24:52 <coingenuity> i like how people get mad about the only coding going on at the moment, too
1140 2011-07-31 10:24:53 <josephcp> lfm: would be appropriate for me to advertise a bitcoin website every hour on the hour here? that is functionally similar to what the rafflebot is doing
1141 2011-07-31 10:24:57 <wumpus> go write unit tests for bitcoind if you're bored
1142 2011-07-31 10:25:43 <coingenuity> hey josephchildporn, have you used rafflebot?
1143 2011-07-31 10:25:46 <coingenuity> do you know what it does?
1144 2011-07-31 10:25:47 <coingenuity> no?
1145 2011-07-31 10:25:56 <coingenuity> oh yeah, i almost forgot, you're talking out of your ass again
1146 2011-07-31 10:26:11 <wumpus> no talk about childporn here please
1147 2011-07-31 10:26:19 <coingenuity> his name creeps me out
1148 2011-07-31 10:26:23 <coingenuity> sorry wumpus
1149 2011-07-31 10:26:53 <coingenuity> anyone who knows anything about the internet recoils when they see the letters 'cp' right next to each other
1150 2011-07-31 10:27:04 <josephcp> lol is coingenuity talking about childporn now? i have him /ignored
1151 2011-07-31 10:27:16 <coingenuity> can't take the heat, i guess he ran out of the kitchen
1152 2011-07-31 10:27:22 <vigilyn> anyone who knows about *nix thinks about copying files
1153 2011-07-31 10:27:24 <coingenuity> hahaha what a pussy
1154 2011-07-31 10:27:39 <coingenuity> cp -rf /source/dir /dest/dir
1155 2011-07-31 10:27:42 <coingenuity> vigilyn
1156 2011-07-31 10:28:43 <Eliel> josephcp: I'm not disagreeing with you about the social convention, but the amount of effort you're putting into it is counterproductive. You're making more spam than coingenuity would make with his bot in total in quite a while.
1157 2011-07-31 10:29:09 <josephcp> Eliel: which is why i dropped it above
1158 2011-07-31 10:29:15 <wumpus> Eliel: similarly, you are generating a lot of text to convince josephcp of your point
1159 2011-07-31 10:29:32 <coingenuity> oh my god
1160 2011-07-31 10:29:39 <doublec> not religion again...
1161 2011-07-31 10:29:43 <coingenuity> i'm literally sitting here
1162 2011-07-31 10:29:45 <coingenuity> laughing my ass off
1163 2011-07-31 10:30:01 <coingenuity> too much for me
1164 2011-07-31 10:32:56 <coingenuity> ok so who wants to see josephcp have an aneurism?
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1183 2011-07-31 11:05:26 <RaffleBot>  Remember, type @rafflebot to play and be sure to join #rafflebit for a live feed.
1184 2011-07-31 11:05:26 <RaffleBot>  Remember, type @rafflebot to play and be sure to join #rafflebit for a live feed.
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1189 2011-07-31 11:10:46 <sipa> ;;later tell riush could you try again? the 'unknown key' error should be fixed when removing keys
1190 2011-07-31 11:10:46 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1191 2011-07-31 11:10:51 sipa has left ()
1192 2011-07-31 11:14:44 <nhodges> whoo
1193 2011-07-31 11:14:48 <nhodges> tons of troubleshooting and
1194 2011-07-31 11:14:53 <nhodges> figure out my server doesn't have bcmath php extension
1195 2011-07-31 11:14:53 <nhodges> lawlll
1196 2011-07-31 11:15:22 <MagicalTux> nhodges: bcmath php ext is kind of deprecated, you really should use gmp
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1200 2011-07-31 11:24:39 <nhodges> MagicalTux i'll look into that, however bitcoin-php by syadasti/mike gogulski uses bcmul bcadd, etc
1201 2011-07-31 11:24:42 <nhodges> which are part of bc math
1202 2011-07-31 11:25:04 <nhodges> would gmp_add give me the sae result as bcadd
1203 2011-07-31 11:25:07 <nhodges> and so on and so forth
1204 2011-07-31 11:28:26 <MagicalTux> not exactly
1205 2011-07-31 11:28:36 <MagicalTux> bc uses string numbers, gmp uses a special resource type
1206 2011-07-31 11:29:14 marf is now known as marf_away
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1209 2011-07-31 11:38:29 <nhodges> MagicalTux so is there some way i should compensate, or is there a bitcoin php library for gmp?
1210 2011-07-31 11:39:19 <nhodges> all i really need to be able to do is hash160ToAddress() from https://raw.github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php/master/src/bitcoin.inc
1211 2011-07-31 11:40:06 MagicalTux has quit (Changing host)
1212 2011-07-31 11:40:06 MagicalTux has joined
1213 2011-07-31 11:40:44 <nhodges> wb MagicalTux
1214 2011-07-31 11:40:48 <nhodges> did you catch that?
1215 2011-07-31 11:43:35 <TuxBlackEdo> MagicalTux: nyan nyan nyan
1216 2011-07-31 11:51:39 Stellar has joined
1217 2011-07-31 11:54:09 gim has joined
1218 2011-07-31 11:54:13 <MagicalTux> lol
1219 2011-07-31 11:54:17 <MagicalTux> nhodges: it's easy
1220 2011-07-31 11:54:40 <MagicalTux> I posted in december some php functions for that on the forum
1221 2011-07-31 11:55:05 Eremes has quit ()
1222 2011-07-31 11:56:32 <nhodges> cool i'll search
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1227 2011-07-31 11:58:24 <nhodges> mer? http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1026.msg22121#msg22121
1228 2011-07-31 11:58:36 <nhodges> looks like it
1229 2011-07-31 12:01:31 <nhodges> thanks much
1230 2011-07-31 12:05:33 <MagicalTux> oh, november, not december
1231 2011-07-31 12:05:34 <MagicalTux> ^^;
1232 2011-07-31 12:08:33 <coderrr> https://btc.to
1233 2011-07-31 12:17:44 <nhodges> coderrr: why, i've never heard a truer statement
1234 2011-07-31 12:17:45 <nhodges> ...
1235 2011-07-31 12:17:45 <nhodges> lol
1236 2011-07-31 12:18:55 agent-x has joined
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1239 2011-07-31 12:26:06 <coderrr> HSTS on now too
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1260 2011-07-31 13:09:51 <nhodges> olol
1261 2011-07-31 13:09:51 <nhodges> YAY
1262 2011-07-31 13:09:58 <nhodges> architectural database decisions
1263 2011-07-31 13:09:59 <nhodges> at 6am
1264 2011-07-31 13:10:18 <nhodges> should i sleep or should i code
1265 2011-07-31 13:11:08 <Delme> well, you could choose between helping me, or going to sleep id say :P
1266 2011-07-31 13:11:19 cjdelisle has joined
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1269 2011-07-31 13:15:22 <nhodges> lol
1270 2011-07-31 13:15:31 <nhodges> but ... but
1271 2011-07-31 13:17:34 <Delme> xD
1272 2011-07-31 13:17:40 <Delme> sorry buddy, those are the only choices available
1273 2011-07-31 13:21:31 <nhodges> lol i think i must retire then .. but if i can help you first i will, what are you having trouble with
1274 2011-07-31 13:21:51 davro has joined
1275 2011-07-31 13:23:36 <Delme> Pushpool :(
1276 2011-07-31 13:24:02 <Delme> Getting server 500 errors trying to connect my miner
1277 2011-07-31 13:24:09 <Delme> however, if i run bitcoin on testnet it runs perfectly
1278 2011-07-31 13:24:57 <nhodges> :| not sure don't have much experience with pushpool
1279 2011-07-31 13:25:30 <Delme> :( oh well
1280 2011-07-31 13:25:33 <Delme> thanks anyway lol
1281 2011-07-31 13:26:38 ThomasV has joined
1282 2011-07-31 13:27:17 <nhodges> np lol
1283 2011-07-31 13:27:20 <nhodges> g'night
1284 2011-07-31 13:27:24 <nhodges> g'morning
1285 2011-07-31 13:27:29 <nhodges> good afternoon
1286 2011-07-31 13:27:32 <nhodges> wherever you are :]
1287 2011-07-31 13:27:50 <Delme> hahahha
1288 2011-07-31 13:27:55 <Delme> slightly different timezone to you
1289 2011-07-31 13:27:59 <Delme> 11.23 pm here ;P
1290 2011-07-31 13:28:08 <Delme> cya
1291 2011-07-31 13:32:34 dr_win has joined
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1301 2011-07-31 13:54:42 <Incitatus> is mtgox really hacked again
1302 2011-07-31 13:54:48 <Incitatus> :/ facepalm
1303 2011-07-31 13:55:03 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1304 2011-07-31 13:55:04 <SomeoneWeird> D:
1305 2011-07-31 13:55:05 <Habbie> all i see is (a) site is slow (b) graph is weird
1306 2011-07-31 13:55:15 <Habbie> bit early for conclusions i'd say
1307 2011-07-31 13:55:36 <gmaxwell> Early reports seems to suggest that someone fatfingered some software and put it in production.
1308 2011-07-31 13:55:59 <gmaxwell> causing e.g. some numbers to be spat out 1e8 larger than they should be.
1309 2011-07-31 13:56:30 <Habbie> heh
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1317 2011-07-31 14:09:07 <mabus> my most recent transaction is a generation 28th at 1am with 548 confirmations. im trying to withdraw my balance of 0.25~ bitcoins. it still requests i attach a fee. WHEN CAN I SEND IT FOR FREE?
1318 2011-07-31 14:09:48 <Habbie> no shouting please.
1319 2011-07-31 14:09:52 <Habbie> then, read the wiki about priority
1320 2011-07-31 14:10:06 <mabus> im not shouting, i'm typing.
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1322 2011-07-31 14:10:43 <gmaxwell> "generation 28th" whats the 28th mean?
1323 2011-07-31 14:10:53 <mabus> the date
1324 2011-07-31 14:11:08 <gmaxwell> mabus: what version of bitcoin are you using?
1325 2011-07-31 14:11:31 <mabus> 0.3.24-beta
1326 2011-07-31 14:11:55 <gmaxwell> How big was the generation?
1327 2011-07-31 14:11:57 <Habbie> mabus, typing in capital letters is shouting
1328 2011-07-31 14:12:29 <mabus> some sticklers claim so but clearly it is not
1329 2011-07-31 14:12:47 <mabus> no need to worry about it
1330 2011-07-31 14:12:48 <Habbie> would you rather offend none, or offend some? :)
1331 2011-07-31 14:12:57 <mabus> i could return that to you.
1332 2011-07-31 14:13:05 <gmaxwell> mabus: you're the one asking for help…
1333 2011-07-31 14:13:27 <Habbie> mabus, that only makes sense shallowly :)
1334 2011-07-31 14:13:33 <Habbie> anyway, how about pasting a blockexplorer link of your tx?
1335 2011-07-31 14:13:42 <mabus> so does calling it yelling like its offensive to use caps
1336 2011-07-31 14:13:44 <mabus> its for emphasis
1337 2011-07-31 14:13:51 <mabus> it doesnt need to be talked about. im being polite.
1338 2011-07-31 14:14:02 <Habbie> well i'm not helping you, then :)
1339 2011-07-31 14:14:47 <mabus> gmaxwell: how'd you do that ellipsis
1340 2011-07-31 14:15:05 <mabus> ＴＨＩＳ ＭＡＫＥ ＹＯＵ ＭＡＤ？
1341 2011-07-31 14:15:35 <gmaxwell> mabus: I have a key for it.
1342 2011-07-31 14:15:36 <Habbie> -1 for style, +3 for Unicode :)
1343 2011-07-31 14:15:47 <mabus> i'm sorry but people complaining about caps being 'yelling' are ridiculous. unless you're blind and using txt2speech and it literally makes it yell. in which case sorry.
1344 2011-07-31 14:16:22 <gmaxwell> mabus: in any case, the (approximate) size of the generation?
1345 2011-07-31 14:16:56 JackStorm has joined
1346 2011-07-31 14:17:28 <Habbie> i'm guessing it is http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000006a8ba8ff8ef077ec0a268eca59251ed57566c7df152a2de34e0
1347 2011-07-31 14:17:31 <gmaxwell> I'm asking because if it's bigger than .25 I'm going to ask why your balance is less. And if it's very tiny I'm going to say if all the payments to you have been very tiny it might not be possible to send the 0.25 without a fee due to the large amount of data needed to encode the transaction.
1348 2011-07-31 14:17:36 <mabus> um hold on
1349 2011-07-31 14:17:49 <mabus> the generation was like 0.04, balance is around .25
1350 2011-07-31 14:18:02 <gmaxwell> As the rest of your inputs similarly sized?
1351 2011-07-31 14:18:27 <mabus> 0.11, 0.9
1352 2011-07-31 14:18:48 <gmaxwell> how many confirms each?
1353 2011-07-31 14:18:59 Myth_age has joined
1354 2011-07-31 14:19:04 <Myth_age> ;;bc,stats
1355 2011-07-31 14:19:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 138966 | Current Difficulty: 1690895.8030524 | Next Difficulty At Block: 139103 | Next Difficulty In: 137 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 hours, 54 minutes, and 11 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1873547.07926359
1356 2011-07-31 14:19:10 <xelister> RALLY
1357 2011-07-31 14:19:35 <mabus> Habbie: great guess
1358 2011-07-31 14:19:36 <mabus> 128H39V6pMfFKX3CHTJMVKSLA2UwX7ybfE: 0.04804668
1359 2011-07-31 14:19:39 <SomeoneWeird> whats the midstate thats returned with getwork?
1360 2011-07-31 14:20:01 <mabus> 548, 1022, 1998
1361 2011-07-31 14:20:06 <mabus> @ gmaxwell
1362 2011-07-31 14:20:07 <SuprTiggr> mabus: Error: "gmaxwell" is not a valid command.
1363 2011-07-31 14:20:18 <gmaxwell> mabus: which is which?
1364 2011-07-31 14:20:19 <Habbie> SomeoneWeird, it's a partial product of the hashing function that is constant relative to the changing nonce
1365 2011-07-31 14:20:30 <mabus> in order. 0.04 0.11 0.9
1366 2011-07-31 14:20:32 <SomeoneWeird> cheers Habbie
1367 2011-07-31 14:20:40 <xelister> Habbie: what is the formula actually?
1368 2011-07-31 14:20:41 <Habbie> (i think ;)
1369 2011-07-31 14:21:01 <Habbie> xelister, uhm, i suggest reading the relevant wiki pages
1370 2011-07-31 14:21:02 denisx has joined
1371 2011-07-31 14:21:05 <Habbie> they're not very good but you can piece it together
1372 2011-07-31 14:21:09 <Habbie> i don't have it off the top of my head
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1376 2011-07-31 14:22:23 <gmaxwell> (4000000*548+11000000*1022+9000000*1998)/500  (I'm guessing the size)... = 62,832,000
1377 2011-07-31 14:22:41 <gmaxwell> so if thats right it should have just crossed the threshold.
1378 2011-07-31 14:23:27 <gmaxwell> oh, but .4+.11+.9 = 1.41.. and I know you don't have that much
1379 2011-07-31 14:23:42 <gmaxwell> so you must be spending change from some prior transaction which is newer
1380 2011-07-31 14:23:47 <gmaxwell> and thus under the threshold.
1381 2011-07-31 14:24:12 <gmaxwell> I wish there was some more-info thing that showed you the priority calculation.
1382 2011-07-31 14:24:21 <Habbie> me too :)
1383 2011-07-31 14:24:25 <Habbie> it's all a bit magical
1384 2011-07-31 14:24:28 <Habbie> (and underdocumented)
1385 2011-07-31 14:24:35 <gmaxwell> Hm? it's documented.
1386 2011-07-31 14:24:44 * Habbie searches
1387 2011-07-31 14:24:48 <gmaxwell> The debug_log shows the coin selection.
1388 2011-07-31 14:24:58 <gmaxwell> Habbie: it's at the bottom of the transaction fee wikipage.
1389 2011-07-31 14:25:06 <Habbie> oh great
1390 2011-07-31 14:25:09 <Habbie> just found it, yes :)
1391 2011-07-31 14:25:30 <gmaxwell> priority is sum_of_inputs(value * confirms) / tx_data_size
1392 2011-07-31 14:25:52 <gmaxwell> and it needs to be over 57,600,000  to go without the fee.
1393 2011-07-31 14:26:13 <Habbie> and fee is 0.0005 given .23 or higher
1394 2011-07-31 14:26:50 <gmaxwell> Yes, and txn with any outputs smaller than 0.01 (including change) also need a fee.
1395 2011-07-31 14:27:05 <asher^> is there a technical explanation of what each item is in a getwork() request?
1396 2011-07-31 14:27:38 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1398 2011-07-31 14:28:24 <gmaxwell> Habbie: also, a more info could tell you approximately how long until you can make it.
1399 2011-07-31 14:28:44 <mabus> gmaxwell: 0.4+.11+.9 does not equal 1.31
1400 2011-07-31 14:28:47 <gmaxwell> Habbie: the problem with that is if you spend anything (or even recieve funds) it might change.
1401 2011-07-31 14:28:48 <mabus> or 1.41 rather
1402 2011-07-31 14:28:49 <Habbie> gmaxwell, hm? oh, the hypothetical 'more info' we want?
1403 2011-07-31 14:29:00 <mabus> i emptied my wallet before these three transactions
1404 2011-07-31 14:29:12 <mabus> and spent none since
1405 2011-07-31 14:30:01 <gmaxwell> yes, it does.. but it's .04 and .09 :)
1406 2011-07-31 14:30:46 <mabus> oh right yeah
1407 2011-07-31 14:30:51 <mabus>  0.04 0.11 0.9
1408 2011-07-31 14:30:57 <mabus> oh booo
1409 2011-07-31 14:31:00 <gmaxwell> mabus: is the amount you're trying to send exactly equal to your balance? (e.g. should you have any tiny change?)
1410 2011-07-31 14:31:00 <mabus> i did say 0.9
1411 2011-07-31 14:31:02 <mabus> lol i just woke up
1412 2011-07-31 14:31:03 <mabus> yes
1413 2011-07-31 14:31:11 <mabus> im trying to tx my balance
1414 2011-07-31 14:32:18 <mabus> also if each time you withdraw money that isnt the exact same size as a tx in, does it increase the size? what is preventing coins from continously growing in size?
1415 2011-07-31 14:32:32 <mabus> do coins not get extremely fractured with circulation?
1416 2011-07-31 14:32:42 <gmaxwell> No, they're constantly remerged by usage.
1417 2011-07-31 14:32:51 <Habbie> a tx always consumes its inputs fully; what you don't need ("change") gets sent to one new address on your end
1418 2011-07-31 14:32:58 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you have two inputs in your wallet 1 and 1, and you spend 2 it will merge them.
1419 2011-07-31 14:34:11 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin only tracks the transactions (helpful to think of as coins) not account balances. You can imagine the network acting as a forge that remints the coins every time they are spent, branding them with their new owners name and in the requested sizes.
1420 2011-07-31 14:34:45 <gmaxwell> In any case, my guess is that your txn is somewhat bigger than I was guessing and it's probably right on the verge of qualifying as no fee.
1421 2011-07-31 14:34:46 <Habbie> and to avoid the obvious counterexample: if you have a size 2 input, and you spend 1, that leaves you with one new size 1 input
1422 2011-07-31 14:35:03 <Diablo-D3> or you can think of bitcoin as a self-proving distributed transaction tracker
1423 2011-07-31 14:35:11 <Habbie> gmaxwell, any idea if people are considering making fees proportional?
1424 2011-07-31 14:35:13 <mabus> http://i.imgur.com/1f879.png
1425 2011-07-31 14:35:14 <Diablo-D3> the fact it handles money is not useful
1426 2011-07-31 14:35:20 <mabus> ^my wallet
1427 2011-07-31 14:35:44 <gmaxwell> Habbie: proportional to what?
1428 2011-07-31 14:35:51 <Habbie> gmaxwell, priority
1429 2011-07-31 14:35:56 <Habbie> instead of the current boolean approach
1430 2011-07-31 14:36:05 <gmaxwell> Wouldn't really help.
1431 2011-07-31 14:36:17 <Habbie> probably not; interesting thought experiment perhaps
1432 2011-07-31 14:36:19 <Diablo-D3> see
1433 2011-07-31 14:36:24 <Diablo-D3> I have the best idea for fees
1434 2011-07-31 14:36:24 <BlueMatt> sipa has done some work on coming up with a new tx priority algorithm
1435 2011-07-31 14:36:31 <Diablo-D3> 1btc flat fee per tx.
1436 2011-07-31 14:36:38 <Habbie> Diablo-D3, heh
1437 2011-07-31 14:36:40 <BlueMatt> funny diablo
1438 2011-07-31 14:37:13 <BlueMatt> sipa's algorithm and logic looks quite nice, but its not high on his priorities so its kinda fallen by the wayside
1439 2011-07-31 14:37:40 <gmaxwell> Habbie: they're already very small where they are applied. If they were made smaller then they wouldn't discouragte the DOS attack.
1440 2011-07-31 14:37:48 <gmaxwell> discourage either.
1441 2011-07-31 14:37:55 <Habbie> agreed
1442 2011-07-31 14:39:20 erus` has joined
1443 2011-07-31 14:39:54 <gmaxwell> mabus: anyways without knowing the exact txn size it's hard to say, but it sounds like another few hours should be enough.
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1445 2011-07-31 14:40:36 <xelister> Diablo-D3 would just like me to again donate him 100×0.10 BTC
1446 2011-07-31 14:40:57 <xelister> he payed like 3 BTC fee to use that money trololo
1447 2011-07-31 14:41:00 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1448 2011-07-31 14:41:56 <gmaxwell> Hey, if you want to send me 10 BTC, I'll gladly take the spam...
1449 2011-07-31 14:42:04 <xelister> gmaxwell: who enforces this limits? it is basically miners goodwill to not allow smaller and not require bigger fee? because they do not modify the client?
1450 2011-07-31 14:42:34 erus` has joined
1451 2011-07-31 14:42:57 <gmaxwell> Self interest not goodwill.
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1453 2011-07-31 14:44:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it took 36 hours.
1454 2011-07-31 14:44:10 <gmaxwell> It's in no bitcoin miners interest to try to force higher fees currently. For one, it would require all of the major miners to do it in order to actually matter. For two, if bitcoin is to be successful we should keep txn fees as low as possible.
1455 2011-07-31 14:44:22 <gmaxwell> s/no/not/
1456 2011-07-31 14:46:02 <upb> 31 16:57 <@MagicalTux> merde: we have introduced multi currency trading as planned, however the old data didn't mix well with the new multi currency and the migration
1457 2011-07-31 14:46:05 <upb>                        system didn't have time to convert everything before people were trading
1458 2011-07-31 14:46:08 <upb> ahahahahahah epic answer
1459 2011-07-31 14:46:19 <Habbie> doh :(
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1471 2011-07-31 14:55:23 <gmaxwell> Just a bit more an we'll be back to the equlibrium I expect with more coin lost due to dataloss than theft: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/j4t58/3rd_largest_bitcoin_exchange_has_lost_its/
1472 2011-07-31 14:55:54 koleg has joined
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1474 2011-07-31 14:56:23 <xelister> lol bitomat.pl is goxed - lost 17,000 BTC (lost the wallet.dat) and didnt have not 1 backup :o
1475 2011-07-31 14:57:34 <UukGoblin> yeah
1476 2011-07-31 14:57:44 <MaggyO> lost how
1477 2011-07-31 14:57:55 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1478 2011-07-31 14:58:14 <gmaxwell> MaggyO: they shut down their AWS VM instance and didn't have another copy of the data.
1479 2011-07-31 14:58:25 <UukGoblin> MaggyO, amazon web services machine was shut down and all data disappeared or sth ;-]
1480 2011-07-31 14:58:35 wardearia has joined
1481 2011-07-31 14:58:42 <gmaxwell> Amazon makes it clear enough that local data isn't persistant...
1482 2011-07-31 14:58:43 <UukGoblin> due to apparent malicious misconfiguration by some 3rd party or sth
1483 2011-07-31 14:58:53 <UukGoblin> yeah
1484 2011-07-31 14:59:11 <UukGoblin> the guy claims on the forum that there was EBS storage on this machine... or sth...
1485 2011-07-31 14:59:11 <MaggyO> who uses amazon
1486 2011-07-31 15:00:00 <MaggyO> its like amateur hour, shutting sites down because their techs lost bets at lunch time or something
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1505 2011-07-31 15:49:11 <asher^> how does pushpool determine that work is invalid or unknown?
1506 2011-07-31 15:49:29 <Habbie> by hashing
1507 2011-07-31 15:50:19 * asher^ needs to learn
1508 2011-07-31 15:52:36 <asher^> ive been looking at the communication between miners and pp and pp and bitcoind, trying to work out what it all is
1509 2011-07-31 15:52:42 <Habbie> pp?
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1511 2011-07-31 15:52:48 <asher^> pushpool
1512 2011-07-31 15:52:50 <Habbie> ah
1513 2011-07-31 15:53:00 <Habbie> do you understand mining when pools are not involved?
1514 2011-07-31 15:53:02 <asher^> when a getwork request is sent to bitcoind, what is the 'id' about?
1515 2011-07-31 15:53:15 <Habbie> i don't see an id in my getwork
1516 2011-07-31 15:53:20 <asher^> i do, its the technical aspects like the protocols that im not sure of
1517 2011-07-31 15:54:03 <asher^> {"method": "getwork", "params": [], "id":542293}
1518 2011-07-31 15:54:08 Incitatus has joined
1519 2011-07-31 15:54:19 <asher^> i have a good macro view, but the details im still getting to grips with
1520 2011-07-31 15:54:59 pumpkin has joined
1521 2011-07-31 15:55:07 <Zagitta> the id is just part of the json-rcp protocol
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1523 2011-07-31 15:55:25 <Zagitta> as far as i know pp nor miners use it for anything
1524 2011-07-31 15:55:37 <Habbie> asher^, 'bitcoind getwork' shows the output you should be wondering about
1525 2011-07-31 15:55:50 <asher^> Habbie i know
1526 2011-07-31 15:55:55 <Habbie> ok
1527 2011-07-31 15:56:22 <asher^> is there any way to pair up submitted solutions with the original getwork request?
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1530 2011-07-31 15:57:38 <Zagitta> technically yes but easily no
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1532 2011-07-31 15:57:47 <Habbie> not necessary either then, i bet
1533 2011-07-31 15:57:51 <asher^> how would it need to be done?
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1536 2011-07-31 15:58:19 <Zagitta> why would you want to do it?
1537 2011-07-31 15:58:27 b4epoche_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1538 2011-07-31 15:58:39 <asher^> curiosity
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1540 2011-07-31 15:59:46 <asher^> in what way could i link them?
1541 2011-07-31 15:59:51 <Zagitta> well it requires code changes to PP
1542 2011-07-31 16:00:35 <Zagitta> you'll need to log the getwork from bitcoind and then pair it up with the incomming submitted work
1543 2011-07-31 16:00:48 <asher^> sure, but how to pair them?
1544 2011-07-31 16:02:05 <Habbie> Zagitta, i'm assuming pushpool does log the submitted proofs so people can't duplicate those?
1545 2011-07-31 16:02:16 <asher^> it does
1546 2011-07-31 16:02:31 <Habbie> ok
1547 2011-07-31 16:02:43 <Zagitta> the reply from the miner is the block header and as such contains the same info as the getwork from bitcoind except the nonce and timestamp if the miner supports n-roll-time
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1549 2011-07-31 16:03:32 <Habbie> what's n-roll-time?
1550 2011-07-31 16:03:56 <Zagitta> Habbie: it logs shares to a database and then it's the frontend's job to do the payout accordingly
1551 2011-07-31 16:04:05 <Habbie> ah
1552 2011-07-31 16:04:30 <Zagitta> Habbie: read up on the wiki how mining works
1553 2011-07-31 16:05:15 <Habbie> i read most of it last week
1554 2011-07-31 16:05:18 <asher^> Zagitta i thought the miner returned the hash of the header not the block header
1555 2011-07-31 16:05:26 <Habbie> ah rollntime
1556 2011-07-31 16:05:32 b4epoche_ has joined
1557 2011-07-31 16:05:38 <Zagitta> ah yes sorry habbie
1558 2011-07-31 16:06:02 <Habbie> i'm always happy to search before asking but i got no results on n-roll-time :)
1559 2011-07-31 16:06:09 <Zagitta> asher^ no it returns the unhashed header which hash results in a hash below the difficulty
1560 2011-07-31 16:06:28 <Habbie> below the target, really
1561 2011-07-31 16:07:02 <Zagitta> yeah not the same thing
1562 2011-07-31 16:07:03 <Habbie> Zagitta, also, looks like rollntime was documented on the wiki just two days ago
1563 2011-07-31 16:07:04 <Zagitta> sorry
1564 2011-07-31 16:07:13 <Zagitta> well
1565 2011-07-31 16:07:18 <asher^> im a bit lost
1566 2011-07-31 16:07:28 <Habbie> feeling lost is normal
1567 2011-07-31 16:07:33 <Zagitta> it's relatively easy to figure out if you know the hashing process
1568 2011-07-31 16:07:37 <asher^> so you send the header to the miner, and it returns the header?
1569 2011-07-31 16:08:10 <Zagitta> yes and no
1570 2011-07-31 16:08:19 <asher^> thanks, that cleared it up :D
1571 2011-07-31 16:08:24 larsivi has joined
1572 2011-07-31 16:08:35 <asher^> lol, please explain it to me if you can
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1574 2011-07-31 16:08:38 <Zagitta> the miner keeps hashing the header and checking the target and if it's not meet it increases the nonce
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1578 2011-07-31 16:11:04 <Zagitta> asher^: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
1579 2011-07-31 16:11:19 <asher^> i was reading that before. obviously im still not getting it
1580 2011-07-31 16:12:22 <asher^> im wondering if the block header is returned by the miner, what is the proof of work?
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1583 2011-07-31 16:13:03 <Zagitta> the changed nonce
1584 2011-07-31 16:13:09 <Habbie> the proof of work is the miner returning a block header in which the nonce is changed such that the hash of the block header satisfies the target as provided by the miner
1585 2011-07-31 16:13:18 sytse has joined
1586 2011-07-31 16:13:41 <genjix> ##medicine <- show your support
1587 2011-07-31 16:13:43 <genjix> lurk there
1588 2011-07-31 16:14:16 <asher^> ok that makes sense
1589 2011-07-31 16:15:01 <Zagitta> don't worry asher^ took me about 2 weeks before i understood enough about PP, mining, hashing etc to code my own pool software
1590 2011-07-31 16:15:03 <asher^> hmm, do you mean "such that the hash of the block header as provided by the miner satisfies the target"?
1591 2011-07-31 16:15:11 s1gnal has joined
1592 2011-07-31 16:15:33 <asher^> Zagitta ive coded my own frontend to PP. you dont really need to know all the technical details to do that
1593 2011-07-31 16:15:35 <Habbie> asher^, do you know what 'difficulty' and 'target' mean?
1594 2011-07-31 16:15:37 <asher^> im trying to get deeper now
1595 2011-07-31 16:15:39 <asher^> yeah
1596 2011-07-31 16:15:45 <Habbie> do you know the purpose of the nonce?
1597 2011-07-31 16:16:25 <asher^> im not 100% on it, but i belive its a number that is incremented in order to provide differences in the total string you are hashing so you get different hashes
1598 2011-07-31 16:16:45 <Habbie> sounds about right
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1600 2011-07-31 16:16:55 <asher^> but i didnt think the miner provided the target, i thought bitcoind/pushpool provided it TO the miner
1601 2011-07-31 16:17:05 <jgarzik> asher^: correct
1602 2011-07-31 16:17:23 <jgarzik> asher^: miner receives target, when it receives work
1603 2011-07-31 16:17:23 <asher^> which is why i was confused by "satisfies the target as provided by the miner"
1604 2011-07-31 16:17:40 <Habbie> oh, sorry
1605 2011-07-31 16:17:48 <Habbie> my mistake there
1606 2011-07-31 16:18:00 <jgarzik> asher^: the work submitted by the miner must satisfy the pool's / bitcoind's target
1607 2011-07-31 16:18:33 <asher^> this is where i get confused. if it satisfies that, isnt that a creation of a new block?
1608 2011-07-31 16:18:54 <Zagitta> no
1609 2011-07-31 16:18:59 <Habbie> asher^, pools "lie" about the difficulty
1610 2011-07-31 16:18:59 <Zagitta> pools rewrite the target
1611 2011-07-31 16:19:06 <Habbie> asher^, so they can measure work
1612 2011-07-31 16:19:09 <asher^> ohhh
1613 2011-07-31 16:19:15 <asher^> so they set it arbitrarily low?
1614 2011-07-31 16:19:22 <Zagitta> they set it to 1 yes
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1616 2011-07-31 16:20:02 <asher^> ok that was a missing piece in the puzzle for me
1617 2011-07-31 16:20:15 <Habbie> that one took me a while too :)
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1619 2011-07-31 16:21:00 <asher^> it made no sense without that piece of information :)
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1622 2011-07-31 16:26:13 <coderrr> thinking of a way to give http plain text responses to scripts/automated-clients and a redirect for normal browsers, anyone ever tried doing a redirect with a body for that ?
1623 2011-07-31 16:27:55 <Zagitta> coderrr: you can use headers to check for the user agent
1624 2011-07-31 16:28:10 <asher^> so, a sha256 hash is a full 256 bits that are random, and since the target that corresponds to difficulty=1 is 256 bits and has 0 leading zeros, only 1 in 8^16 (i think) nonces will give a hash that satisfies the target (assuming hash values are equally distributed)?
1625 2011-07-31 16:28:16 <coderrr> yea, thot about that first, was just worried some scripts might have browser headers
1626 2011-07-31 16:28:33 <Zagitta> coderrr: what scripts are we talking about?
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1630 2011-07-31 16:30:19 <asher^> 16^8 rather
1631 2011-07-31 16:30:56 <asher^> which is the 2^32 hashes in a share...
1632 2011-07-31 16:31:03 <asher^> its starting to come together now :)
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1635 2011-07-31 16:32:16 <Zagitta> asher^ it sounds correct however a hash is not random, the same data allways gives the same hash
1636 2011-07-31 16:33:22 <marf_away> lol make block if rndom < 1000 ;D nice system now i found randomcoin
1637 2011-07-31 16:34:15 <asher^> Zagitta right, what i said was poorly worded
1638 2011-07-31 16:34:48 <Zagitta> marf_away: GL basing economy on that :P
1639 2011-07-31 16:35:03 <asher^> i meant to say something like, on average, when generating hashes for random strings, the values of those hashes will be distributed like random numbers
1640 2011-07-31 16:35:45 <marf_away> f(random) = random ; f bijectiv
1641 2011-07-31 16:36:06 <marf_away> say it with math
1642 2011-07-31 16:36:07 <marf_away> ;D
1643 2011-07-31 16:36:26 <Zagitta> asher^ doing fixed work on random data gives random data yes ;)
1644 2011-07-31 16:36:34 wardearia has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1646 2011-07-31 16:37:00 <asher^> well when you say it like that... :p
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1648 2011-07-31 16:37:34 <coderrr> asher, s/hashes for random strings/hashes for unique strings/
1649 2011-07-31 16:37:37 <coderrr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_oracle
1650 2011-07-31 16:38:07 <coderrr> Zagitta, any script that uses btc.to
1651 2011-07-31 16:38:55 <asher^> one of the reasons i was interested in learning how all this stuff worked was seeing if it was possible to detect users witholding shares that generate new blocks in a pps pool. i now see it isnt :(
1652 2011-07-31 16:39:02 denisx has joined
1653 2011-07-31 16:41:57 <Zagitta> i guess evil pool operaters could ruin other pools that way yeah
1654 2011-07-31 16:42:11 <asher^> or just evil miners
1655 2011-07-31 16:42:15 <doublec> evil users can ruin a pps pool
1656 2011-07-31 16:42:35 <asher^> since i recently started a pps pool this is a concern to me
1657 2011-07-31 16:43:17 <doublec> use your pps pool as a proxy
1658 2011-07-31 16:43:28 <doublec> pass all the data to an existing large 0% fee non-pps pool
1659 2011-07-31 16:43:30 <doublec> cream the profit
1660 2011-07-31 16:43:39 <doublec> no worries about bad miners
1661 2011-07-31 16:43:47 <asher^> doublec that would mitigate the problem, but not solve it
1662 2011-07-31 16:43:47 <doublec> feel evil
1663 2011-07-31 16:44:17 <doublec> it would solve the problem for the pps pool
1664 2011-07-31 16:44:24 <asher^> not really
1665 2011-07-31 16:44:35 <denisx> asher^: yu have problems with pool hoppers?
1666 2011-07-31 16:44:52 <asher^> because the pool you are mining from would not get the blocks, and so you wouldnt get paid
1667 2011-07-31 16:45:01 <asher^> denisx pool hoppers on pps? no
1668 2011-07-31 16:45:18 <Zagitta> asher^ : switch to shared propertional pay per share instead
1669 2011-07-31 16:45:35 <doublec> asher^: the pool you are mining from would pay you for submitted shares
1670 2011-07-31 16:45:47 <doublec> asher^: the only shares missing are the ones from successfull blocks
1671 2011-07-31 16:45:59 <doublec> asher^: so you miss 1 share every blue moon
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1674 2011-07-31 16:46:46 <doublec> asher^: and you'd pick a large non-pps pool so that they are getting lots of good shares from other users
1675 2011-07-31 16:46:56 <asher^> heh
1676 2011-07-31 16:47:10 <doublec> you could even run that pool yourself - and have pps as an 'extra'
1677 2011-07-31 16:47:22 <asher^> btw i greatly appreciate all the help you guys gave me with the technical stuff. thanks a lot
1678 2011-07-31 16:48:48 <Zagitta> np, btw if you're looking more into the technical stuff you can look at my c# pool software that i think is a bit cleaner than pushpool:https://github.com/Zagitta/Zetlon.Coinster
1679 2011-07-31 16:49:17 <denisx> asher^: ah, pps. didn't see that
1680 2011-07-31 16:49:37 <Zagitta> there are a few bugs and wrong implementations so don't use it but the over all technical stuff is correct :)
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1704 2011-07-31 17:54:40 <luke-jr> the real time should always be acceptable ntime header, right?
1705 2011-07-31 17:55:07 <luke-jr> even if 50% of the blocks are timed nearly 2 hours into the future?
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1708 2011-07-31 17:58:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, any idea why your jsonrpc python branch wouldn't be working with the latest git HEAD? consistently fails to auth
1709 2011-07-31 18:00:29 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, nvm
1710 2011-07-31 18:01:23 accel has joined
1711 2011-07-31 18:01:28 <accel> is there a way to modify the bitcoin protocol
1712 2011-07-31 18:01:34 <accel> so that each bitcoin has a 2ndary address
1713 2011-07-31 18:01:40 <accel> and if the primary address doens't reresh the coin every 30 days
1714 2011-07-31 18:01:44 <accel> it goes to the 2ndary address
1715 2011-07-31 18:01:48 <Habbie> why?
1716 2011-07-31 18:01:52 <accel> this way, one can simultaneously have the benefits of exchanges
1717 2011-07-31 18:02:00 <accel> and avoid shit like: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2828091
1718 2011-07-31 18:02:17 <accel> so when you transfer coins to a 3rd party
1719 2011-07-31 18:02:20 <accel> you're listed as the 2ndary address
1720 2011-07-31 18:02:25 <accel> as long as the 3rd party refreshes the coin every 30 days
1721 2011-07-31 18:02:29 <accel> you can't use your coins (to avoid double spending)
1722 2011-07-31 18:02:34 <accel> but should they ever lose their wallet.data
1723 2011-07-31 18:02:37 <Habbie> cute idea
1724 2011-07-31 18:02:38 <accel> and not refresh every 30 days
1725 2011-07-31 18:02:43 <accel> then it goes back to the 2ndary address, which is you
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1728 2011-07-31 18:03:54 <accel> Habbie: any obvious flaws / attacks on such a system?
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1730 2011-07-31 18:04:02 <accel> granted, it doesn't defend against wallet.dat being _stolen_
1731 2011-07-31 18:04:08 <accel> only against it being _lost_
1732 2011-07-31 18:05:23 <Habbie> one obvious flaw might be that an exchange might 'consume' your coins into a central account, or perhaps use 'your' coins to pay another user
1733 2011-07-31 18:05:29 <edcba> that's not a good solution
1734 2011-07-31 18:05:49 <accel> edcba: please explain
1735 2011-07-31 18:06:02 <accel> I spent 5 minutes thinking about this; so there are bond to be flaws
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1737 2011-07-31 18:06:13 <edcba> because modifying bitcoin protocol is quite hard now
1738 2011-07-31 18:06:43 <edcba> and your problem can be solved in other ways
1739 2011-07-31 18:07:21 <Habbie> i wonder if you could do this with a custom script
1740 2011-07-31 18:07:22 <edcba> and sync problems with 2ndary address
1741 2011-07-31 18:07:57 <accel> okay
1742 2011-07-31 18:08:09 <accel> I was hoipng you would ahve more than (1) modifhing protocol is ahrd and (2) there are probably other ways
1743 2011-07-31 18:08:41 <edcba> yes i have more but i don't want to explain in details :p
1744 2011-07-31 18:08:48 <Habbie> i'm curious about 2 :)
1745 2011-07-31 18:08:56 <edcba> especially 2 :)
1746 2011-07-31 18:09:02 <Habbie> hehe
1747 2011-07-31 18:09:59 Myth_age has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1749 2011-07-31 18:10:10 <accel> edcba: are you satoshi?
1750 2011-07-31 18:10:13 <edcba> ok maybe i will explain 2 because i'm not that motivated to do it anyway
1751 2011-07-31 18:10:14 <edcba> nope
1752 2011-07-31 18:10:38 <accel> great, explain #2
1753 2011-07-31 18:10:39 <edcba> you can solve 2 easily but it weakens security a bit
1754 2011-07-31 18:11:18 <edcba> you just use a password to derive a bitstream used to generate bitcoin addresses
1755 2011-07-31 18:11:31 <edcba> no more wallet.dat
1756 2011-07-31 18:11:50 <edcba> you can use the password everywhere
1757 2011-07-31 18:12:06 denisx has left ()
1758 2011-07-31 18:12:09 <accel> ah
1759 2011-07-31 18:12:15 <accel> so instead of having a randomly generated wallet.dat
1760 2011-07-31 18:12:16 <edcba> but of course same downsides : lose your password, lose your wallete
1761 2011-07-31 18:12:19 <edcba> -e
1762 2011-07-31 18:12:29 <accel> you use "ebcda is a genius" as a key to a pseudorandom number generator, which generates wallet.dat
1763 2011-07-31 18:12:30 denisx has joined
1764 2011-07-31 18:12:36 <edcba> yes
1765 2011-07-31 18:12:40 <accel> I like my idea more
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1768 2011-07-31 18:13:01 <edcba> yes but programmers will like mine more
1769 2011-07-31 18:13:10 <accel> yeah, but you see
1770 2011-07-31 18:13:16 <accel> you are in the business of creating practical solutions
1771 2011-07-31 18:13:28 <accel> I am (not getting paid) to make up theoretical ones
1772 2011-07-31 18:13:34 <edcba> :)
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1776 2011-07-31 18:14:23 <Habbie> edcba, with your idea, an exchange would put that passphrase into an escrow somewhere?
1777 2011-07-31 18:14:56 <accel> probably not
1778 2011-07-31 18:15:05 <accel> the ehcange would put that passphrase into a human brain
1779 2011-07-31 18:15:09 <edcba> or you can let the exchane take a portion of your bitstream
1780 2011-07-31 18:15:10 <accel> the point of a passphrase
1781 2011-07-31 18:15:13 <accel> is that it can be remembered
1782 2011-07-31 18:15:21 <accel> rather than something like q29084y5908214u5928037459802374589023745908237459024375823490524 which would be wallet.dat
1783 2011-07-31 18:15:52 <accel> suppose for the sake of contradiction
1784 2011-07-31 18:15:56 <accel> you would put passphrase in escrow somewhere
1785 2011-07-31 18:16:02 <accel> why not put wallet.dat in escrow in the same place?
1786 2011-07-31 18:16:15 <accel> unless the place you put in escrow has a easier time remembering a passphrase than a random set of numbers
1787 2011-07-31 18:16:18 <Habbie> because it changes (grows) all the time
1788 2011-07-31 18:16:27 <edcba> but the point is no more sensaniolist headlines like : "i backed up my wallet.dat and still lose all my bitcoins"
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1790 2011-07-31 18:16:32 <accel> wallet.dat changes all the time?
1791 2011-07-31 18:16:36 <edcba> yes
1792 2011-07-31 18:16:39 <accel> itsn't it just a private key?
1793 2011-07-31 18:16:41 <edcba> or it changed
1794 2011-07-31 18:16:50 <Habbie> accel, it's a private key *per address*
1795 2011-07-31 18:16:50 <edcba> it's a collection of private keys
1796 2011-07-31 18:17:08 <Habbie> with default settings, wallet.dat starts out as 100 private keys
1797 2011-07-31 18:17:32 <accel> i'm an idiot
1798 2011-07-31 18:17:35 <accel> why is it more than 1 private key?
1799 2011-07-31 18:17:57 <accel> what are the other 99 used for
1800 2011-07-31 18:18:04 <edcba> for future transactions
1801 2011-07-31 18:18:18 <accel> every time there's a transactions you use a different priate key?
1802 2011-07-31 18:18:28 <edcba> when you do 1 transaction you send all your money of some block each time
1803 2011-07-31 18:18:35 <edcba> block(s)
1804 2011-07-31 18:18:49 <edcba> one part to you the remaining to the real destination
1805 2011-07-31 18:19:02 <accel> oh right
1806 2011-07-31 18:19:08 <accel> so if I have say, 100 bitcoins
1807 2011-07-31 18:19:11 <edcba> and you create a new address each time
1808 2011-07-31 18:19:17 <accel> and I want to transfer edcba 10 bitcoins, it's something like:
1809 2011-07-31 18:19:32 <accel> 10 bitcoins to edcba, 0.01 bitcoins to the discoverer of the next block, remaining 89.99 coins to accel
1810 2011-07-31 18:19:36 <accel> 10 bitcoins to edcba, 0.01 bitcoins to the discoverer of the next block, remaining 89.99 coins to accel2
1811 2011-07-31 18:19:42 <Habbie> yes
1812 2011-07-31 18:19:44 <accel> hmm
1813 2011-07-31 18:19:45 <accel> so dumb question
1814 2011-07-31 18:19:48 <edcba> 100 accel -> 10 edcba, 90 accelbis
1815 2011-07-31 18:19:56 <accel> why does accel and accel2 have to be different addresses?
1816 2011-07-31 18:19:56 <Habbie> 90 indeed
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1818 2011-07-31 18:20:10 <edcba> for tx to be more anonymous
1819 2011-07-31 18:20:37 <accel> I don't buy that BS
1820 2011-07-31 18:20:39 <edcba> nobody knows if 10 is for edcba or 90
1821 2011-07-31 18:20:46 <accel> I think ti's pretty obvious
1822 2011-07-31 18:21:17 <accel> if you look at the graph, the people that continue interacting with accel/edcba gives away who the 10 or 90 is
1823 2011-07-31 18:21:17 <edcba> maybe not obvious but far from perfect :)
1824 2011-07-31 18:21:52 <edcba> but if you generate a new receiving address you don't know it's always accel/edcba
1825 2011-07-31 18:21:54 <Habbie> i wonder if any clients would break if accel2 indeed was the sending address
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1827 2011-07-31 18:22:05 <edcba> no they won't
1828 2011-07-31 18:22:12 <Habbie> i don't expect so either
1829 2011-07-31 18:22:19 <edcba> or they are very badly coded
1830 2011-07-31 18:22:25 <Habbie> i wish 'any clients' would actually mean something with bitcoin
1831 2011-07-31 18:22:31 <Habbie> there's not a lot of variation ;)
1832 2011-07-31 18:22:50 <edcba> i wanted to code a client with my password idea
1833 2011-07-31 18:22:58 <edcba> but i'm really too lazy
1834 2011-07-31 18:23:04 <Habbie> also you would probably do it as a patch anyway
1835 2011-07-31 18:23:27 <edcba> no because i wanted to put an integrated pool in the client too :p
1836 2011-07-31 18:23:33 <Habbie> hahaha
1837 2011-07-31 18:23:46 <accel> edcba: I have an idea
1838 2011-07-31 18:23:50 <accel> edcba: find a MBA
1839 2011-07-31 18:23:54 <accel> edcba: explain your password idea to MBA
1840 2011-07-31 18:23:57 <edcba> something that would be quite seamless for user and bring me a lot of btc :)
1841 2011-07-31 18:24:01 <accel> edcba: watch MBA recruit coder to implement your idea for profit
1842 2011-07-31 18:24:05 <edcba> lol
1843 2011-07-31 18:24:48 <edcba> the step explain to MBA may be too long :)
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1861 2011-07-31 18:44:40 <erus`> the next time your wife gets her mouth anaesthetised at the dentists, ask her for a blowjob. I will feel like someone else is giving it
1862 2011-07-31 18:45:05 <Habbie> did you mean to say "It" instead of "I" ?
1863 2011-07-31 18:45:26 <erus`> maybe i did
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1869 2011-07-31 18:53:59 <imsaguy> lol
1870 2011-07-31 18:55:52 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1871 2011-07-31 18:59:53 <edcba> better ask someone else
1872 2011-07-31 19:00:31 <upb> someone else as in your wife :P
1873 2011-07-31 19:00:32 <upb> ?
1874 2011-07-31 19:02:59 koleg has joined
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1877 2011-07-31 19:06:13 <edcba> indeed
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1899 2011-07-31 19:19:04 <theorbtwo> Yeah, if the dentist gives me a blowjob, I'm sure to feel like it's not from your wife.
1900 2011-07-31 19:19:42 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1902 2011-07-31 19:19:54 <lfm> um off topic much?
1903 2011-07-31 19:20:10 <Habbie> lfm, related to earlier offtopic banter...
1904 2011-07-31 19:20:11 <theorbtwo> Yes, indeed.
1905 2011-07-31 19:20:40 <theorbtwo> Just couldn't resist replying to the last few lines, since there was a good response that hadn't been used yet.
1906 2011-07-31 19:20:50 <cjdelisle> Oh, you've not heard about the proposed blowjob module for bitcoind?
1907 2011-07-31 19:20:57 <theorbtwo> Didn't notice that the last few lines where more then a half-hour old.
1908 2011-07-31 19:21:06 <Habbie> timestamps are overrated anyway ;)
1909 2011-07-31 19:21:17 <cjdelisle> It's finally going to give real backing to the bitcoin currency.
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1912 2011-07-31 19:22:13 <fabianhjr> Any Fedora/Linux/GRUB2 expert in here?
1913 2011-07-31 19:22:26 <gfinn> might be
1914 2011-07-31 19:22:34 <cjdelisle> No but I play one on TV, what's your question?
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1917 2011-07-31 19:23:34 <fabianhjr> gfinn, trying to install Fedora15 on an external WD drive. Process was reported as succesful and after reboot it doesn't load a bootloader(GRUB).
1918 2011-07-31 19:24:04 <cjdelisle> USB disk?
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1920 2011-07-31 19:24:54 <gfinn> you told your BIOS to boot from that? does the BIOS have a boot menu?
1921 2011-07-31 19:25:18 <fabianhjr> After asqing for help at #fedora it is still not resolved. Files are in sdb1 /boot and sdb2 an LVM. I was asked to fdisk /dev/sdb an the boot partition is sdb1, as expected. He then asked me to chroot /dev/sdb1 "bash"; "grub-install /dev/sdb" which yields an error saying sdb does not exist.
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1924 2011-07-31 19:25:55 <fabianhjr> cjdelisle, USB hdd :P
1925 2011-07-31 19:27:02 <cjdelisle> when you installed did you check the box to pawn the master boot record with grub?
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1927 2011-07-31 19:27:29 <gfinn> ls /dev/sd*
1928 2011-07-31 19:27:33 <gfinn> see which devices do exist
1929 2011-07-31 19:27:38 <gfinn> maybe it's not sdb
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1933 2011-07-31 19:28:40 <cjdelisle> somonez laaaaagin
1934 2011-07-31 19:28:58 <fabianhjr> /dev/sda   /dev/sda2  /dev/sdb1  /dev/sdc  /dev/sde
1935 2011-07-31 19:28:58 <fabianhjr> /dev/sda1  /dev/sdb   /dev/sdb2  /dev/sdd  /dev/sdf
1936 2011-07-31 19:29:02 <lfm> ya after the chroot you have a new /dev which prolly point sda at that drive
1937 2011-07-31 19:29:19 <fabianhjr> I selected during install to be sdb, the external hdd the one with the bootloader and fedora install.
1938 2011-07-31 19:29:49 <gfinn> mount dev first before you chroot
1939 2011-07-31 19:29:51 <fabianhjr> I want this to be like a USB pen drive. Though not sure how to proceed.
1940 2011-07-31 19:29:56 <gfinn> mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt
1941 2011-07-31 19:30:03 <gfinn> mount -t bind /dev /mnt/dev
1942 2011-07-31 19:30:07 <fabianhjr> gfinn, it is mounted to /mnt/here
1943 2011-07-31 19:30:08 <gfinn> mount -t bind /proc /mnt/proc
1944 2011-07-31 19:30:14 <gfinn> then chroot
1945 2011-07-31 19:30:18 <fabianhjr> Ok
1946 2011-07-31 19:30:20 <gfinn> maybe /sys too
1947 2011-07-31 19:30:53 <fabianhjr> gfinn do I mkdir?
1948 2011-07-31 19:31:07 <gfinn> shouldn't need to
1949 2011-07-31 19:31:12 <gfinn> if it's already got a full system installed
1950 2011-07-31 19:31:18 <fabianhjr> mnt/dev doesn-t exist
1951 2011-07-31 19:31:34 <fabianhjr> no I am oin a livecd because the hdd won't boot
1952 2011-07-31 19:31:35 <gfinn> what does exist?
1953 2011-07-31 19:31:41 <gfinn> I guess mkdir, but a full install should have made /dev
1954 2011-07-31 19:32:05 <fabianhjr> I am on a live cd. Only moutn points are live and here.
1955 2011-07-31 19:32:14 <gfinn> right, but you installed fedora onto the external drive (sdb) previously?
1956 2011-07-31 19:32:30 koleg has joined
1957 2011-07-31 19:32:36 <fabianhjr> Yes, two times.-_-
1958 2011-07-31 19:32:53 <gfinn> that's what's on /mnt/here?
1959 2011-07-31 19:33:10 <gfinn> so mount /dev onto /mnt/here/dev
1960 2011-07-31 19:33:18 <fabianhjr> I was asked to mount sdb somewhere
1961 2011-07-31 19:33:24 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1962 2011-07-31 19:33:38 <gfinn> make sure it's mounted, if it's not already...
1963 2011-07-31 19:34:13 <fabianhjr> sdb is mounted on /mnt/here
1964 2011-07-31 19:34:25 <fabianhjr> Though it only mounted sd1 apparently.
1965 2011-07-31 19:34:25 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1966 2011-07-31 19:34:30 <gfinn> ok so you want to mount -t bind /dev /mnt/here/dev
1967 2011-07-31 19:34:35 <luke-jr> looks like mining should have used ECDSA + SHA256
1968 2011-07-31 19:34:52 <fabianhjr> does not exist
1969 2011-07-31 19:35:03 <luke-jr> my Radeon 5850 performs slightly poorer than an i7 950 ;)
1970 2011-07-31 19:35:04 <gfinn> what does exist?
1971 2011-07-31 19:35:06 <lfm> luke-jr whys that?
1972 2011-07-31 19:35:19 <luke-jr> lfm: CPUs can compete with GPUs
1973 2011-07-31 19:35:30 <fabianhjr> I am trying to mount sdb2 instead of sdb1 in there.
1974 2011-07-31 19:35:33 <lfm> whats wrong with that?
1975 2011-07-31 19:35:40 <fabianhjr> mount: unknown filesystem type 'LVM2_member'
1976 2011-07-31 19:35:42 <gfinn> luke: that's surprising
1977 2011-07-31 19:35:48 <luke-jr> lfm: … it's better, so :p
1978 2011-07-31 19:35:57 <luke-jr> gfinn: unless oclvanitygen is just poorly implemented…
1979 2011-07-31 19:36:04 <gfinn> both about 5 MH/s?
1980 2011-07-31 19:36:15 <luke-jr> both are 1 MK/s
1981 2011-07-31 19:36:22 <lfm> ecdsa would prolly be a lot better on a cpu too
1982 2011-07-31 19:36:33 <gfinn> using all 8 cores?
1983 2011-07-31 19:36:36 <luke-jr> gfinn: yes
1984 2011-07-31 19:36:53 <gfinn> which miner software?
1985 2011-07-31 19:36:59 <luke-jr> vanitygen
1986 2011-07-31 19:37:09 <gfinn> that's pretty slow...
1987 2011-07-31 19:37:13 <luke-jr> …
1988 2011-07-31 19:37:23 <fabianhjr> does vanitygen have an opencl implementation yet?
1989 2011-07-31 19:37:27 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: yes
1990 2011-07-31 19:37:29 <gfinn> you should get better than that with 2 cores on that cpu...
1991 2011-07-31 19:37:31 <luke-jr> oclvanitygen
1992 2011-07-31 19:37:39 <luke-jr> gfinn: ECDSA+SHA256?
1993 2011-07-31 19:37:53 <fabianhjr> luke-jr, ty
1994 2011-07-31 19:37:56 <luke-jr> actually ECDSA+SHA256+whatever160
1995 2011-07-31 19:37:57 <gfinn> oh, it's using that?
1996 2011-07-31 19:38:03 <gfinn> I thought you were saying it *should have*
1997 2011-07-31 19:38:07 <luke-jr> gfinn: vanitygen mines for addresses
1998 2011-07-31 19:38:27 <luke-jr> block mining *should have* been the same
1999 2011-07-31 19:38:37 <gfinn> oh i see
2000 2011-07-31 19:38:44 <gfinn> to make CPUs more competitive
2001 2011-07-31 19:38:47 <luke-jr> yes
2002 2011-07-31 19:38:57 <gfinn> *shrug*
2003 2011-07-31 19:39:14 <lfm> so vanitygen has a gpu option? lol
2004 2011-07-31 19:39:21 <luke-jr> lfm: yep, CAL
2005 2011-07-31 19:39:30 <gfinn> oh for bitcoin addresses
2006 2011-07-31 19:39:43 <gfinn> odd
2007 2011-07-31 19:40:07 <fabianhjr> gfinn you can get an address such as 1fabianhjr89hnjuvfdas
2008 2011-07-31 19:40:15 <fabianhjr> (Not an actual address)
2009 2011-07-31 19:40:20 * luke-jr wishes it supported suffix instead of prefix
2010 2011-07-31 19:40:21 <gfinn> i'm not sure why i'd want one
2011 2011-07-31 19:40:48 <gfinn> just for a one-use bitcoin address
2012 2011-07-31 19:40:49 <luke-jr> 1E1igius will take ~8 days
2013 2011-07-31 19:40:52 <fabianhjr> luke-jr, it supports REGEX, dunno how to use it though quite sure there should be a way to ask for the suffix
2014 2011-07-31 19:40:52 <luke-jr> on the i7 950
2015 2011-07-31 19:41:01 <luke-jr> gfinn: it's nice for donation addresses
2016 2011-07-31 19:41:08 <fabianhjr> gfinn, more of your public address everyone sees.
2017 2011-07-31 19:41:09 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: its regex is far slower
2018 2011-07-31 19:41:11 <gfinn> still rather rotate those even
2019 2011-07-31 19:41:13 copumpkin has joined
2020 2011-07-31 19:41:21 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: and on GPU, it forces it to use the CPU for matching
2021 2011-07-31 19:41:32 <luke-jr> gfinn: so rotate every month :P
2022 2011-07-31 19:41:32 <fabianhjr> luke-jr, really? GPU could be getting keys and CPU comparing. :P
2023 2011-07-31 19:41:49 <fabianhjr> Wow, I guessed it! lawl
2024 2011-07-31 19:41:53 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: that's what it does with regex, but CPU can't keep up
2025 2011-07-31 19:42:03 <luke-jr> (not the i7 950 obv)
2026 2011-07-31 19:42:14 EPiSKiNG- has joined
2027 2011-07-31 19:42:31 <fabianhjr> depends, I got the 930 OCed to 3.5 GHz with the hyperthreading technology on.
2028 2011-07-31 19:43:14 koleg has joined
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2030 2011-07-31 19:43:45 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: the code would be trivial to change to check a suffix vs prefix
2031 2011-07-31 19:44:05 <fabianhjr> gfinn, mount: unknown filesystem type 'LVM2_member'
2032 2011-07-31 19:44:09 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: maybe
2033 2011-07-31 19:44:16 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: definitely, i've looked at it
2034 2011-07-31 19:44:20 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I might change the regex code from PCRE to POSIX tho
2035 2011-07-31 19:44:23 <luke-jr> see if that helps
2036 2011-07-31 19:44:27 <fabianhjr> gfinn, what if I better just start over again with some assistance I do need. xD
2037 2011-07-31 19:45:13 <gfinn> ok
2038 2011-07-31 19:45:18 Akiron has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2039 2011-07-31 19:45:24 <gfinn> since it's LVM you have to do something with that first
2040 2011-07-31 19:45:32 <gfinn> mount the LVM
2041 2011-07-31 19:45:47 <gfinn> not the sdb1 device directly
2042 2011-07-31 19:46:00 <gfinn> although it be simpler to start over without LVM
2043 2011-07-31 19:46:10 <fabianhjr> Thats what I am telling you :P
2044 2011-07-31 19:46:15 <fabianhjr> So I open Install to HDD
2045 2011-07-31 19:46:32 koleg has quit (2!kvirc@79.133.140.189|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2046 2011-07-31 19:46:48 sesiom has quit ()
2047 2011-07-31 19:46:50 <fabianhjr> Select basic storage
2048 2011-07-31 19:47:28 <jrmithdobbs> why wouldn't you use lvm?
2049 2011-07-31 19:47:46 <jrmithdobbs> that's like saying it'd be simpler to start over with a 386dx
2050 2011-07-31 19:48:07 <gfinn> no, it's not like that
2051 2011-07-31 19:48:11 <jrmithdobbs> luddites
2052 2011-07-31 19:48:15 <fabianhjr> gfinn, I will select Encrypt System and Review and Modify Partition Layout. Will use all the HDD space of the external drive
2053 2011-07-31 19:48:34 <jrmithdobbs> yes it is, all fses should live within a volume management system of some type
2054 2011-07-31 19:48:39 <jrmithdobbs> fuck static sized fses
2055 2011-07-31 19:48:45 <jrmithdobbs> this is 2011!
2056 2011-07-31 19:49:03 <fabianhjr> MyBook is the target install and also the bootloader target. Fine?
2057 2011-07-31 19:49:15 koleg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2058 2011-07-31 19:49:17 <gfinn> fabianhjr: i guess
2059 2011-07-31 19:49:32 <gfinn> if that's what you wantr
2060 2011-07-31 19:51:14 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2061 2011-07-31 19:51:43 Rabbit67890 has left ()
2062 2011-07-31 19:52:17 <fabianhjr> sdb(dev/sdb) is partitioned into sdb1 500 MB /boot ext4 sdb2 (rest) MB vg_network_name physical valume(LVM) -> which is devided in lv_root 50 GB lb_swap 4GB and lv_home(rest) being ext4 formats
2063 2011-07-31 19:52:50 <fabianhjr> sdb2 has a lock symbol(going to encrypt)
2064 2011-07-31 19:53:04 <fabianhjr> So now I can continue?
2065 2011-07-31 19:53:41 Blitzboom has joined
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2067 2011-07-31 19:53:42 Blitzboom has joined
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2069 2011-07-31 19:54:17 <jrmithdobbs> anyone know something like the soekris vpn1411 that's pcie1x or minipcie? (hw rng + bignum functions + dh/md5/sha* + aes*/des/3des accel
2070 2011-07-31 19:55:29 <jrmithdobbs> (the vpn1411 is minipci :()
2071 2011-07-31 19:55:31 Workbench has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2072 2011-07-31 19:55:38 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
2073 2011-07-31 19:55:53 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, so I take it it is solved_
2074 2011-07-31 19:56:02 <jrmithdobbs> fabianhjr: what
2075 2011-07-31 19:56:08 <fabianhjr> gfinn, so it is formatting and copying the files.
2076 2011-07-31 19:56:31 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, wait oh sorry misread the minipci statement >P
2077 2011-07-31 19:56:33 <fabianhjr> :P
2078 2011-07-31 19:56:38 Workbench has joined
2079 2011-07-31 19:56:51 <gfinn> that's a pretty big /boot but ok
2080 2011-07-31 19:57:29 <jrmithdobbs> fabianhjr: i wouldn't allocate all that space to /home
2081 2011-07-31 19:57:35 <fabianhjr> gfinn, ok now I am at the bootloader system list. I will remove Other since I don-t want it to appear.
2082 2011-07-31 19:57:41 <jrmithdobbs> fabianhjr: leave free space so you can resize things and add space to /home as needed
2083 2011-07-31 19:57:52 egecko has joined
2084 2011-07-31 19:57:59 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, what would I add space to?
2085 2011-07-31 19:58:12 karnac has joined
2086 2011-07-31 19:58:18 <jrmithdobbs> how would i know, i don't know what all you'll ever use that computer for
2087 2011-07-31 19:58:36 <jrmithdobbs> you definitely DONT NEED a 50GB /
2088 2011-07-31 19:59:05 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, what else would I add space. swap is the only thing remaining.
2089 2011-07-31 19:59:26 <jrmithdobbs> honestly, i'd start with: 2GB /, 2GB /var, 4GB /usr, 1GB /tmp, 4GB /home, 4GB swap
2090 2011-07-31 19:59:35 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2091 2011-07-31 19:59:36 <fabianhjr> I am saying cus I already move past that point.
2092 2011-07-31 19:59:43 <jrmithdobbs> and put the swap outside of the lvm setup so that you can change the key for it randomly on every boot (still encrypted)
2093 2011-07-31 20:00:07 <fabianhjr> Ok, I will go all over again.
2094 2011-07-31 20:00:15 <BlueMatt> why are you partitioning this like crazy?
2095 2011-07-31 20:00:30 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that's a pretty sane scheme right there
2096 2011-07-31 20:00:31 <BlueMatt> there used to be reason to do that (sort of) now, there really isnt
2097 2011-07-31 20:00:37 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes. there is.
2098 2011-07-31 20:00:39 <BlueMatt> like?
2099 2011-07-31 20:00:49 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: like if / shit itself you don't lose everything
2100 2011-07-31 20:00:53 MrTiggr has joined
2101 2011-07-31 20:00:55 <gfinn> there are reasons for some of it
2102 2011-07-31 20:01:01 <BlueMatt> when have you ever seen / shit itself?
2103 2011-07-31 20:01:09 <gfinn> having /tmp separate means you can use a random key for it on boot just like swap
2104 2011-07-31 20:01:25 <BlueMatt> if a partition shits itself, its likely to be the one that you are writing to
2105 2011-07-31 20:01:30 <gfinn> 1 GB /tmp is pretty small though, so you might end up having to redo it if you do that
2106 2011-07-31 20:01:30 <BlueMatt> in other words the important one
2107 2011-07-31 20:01:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: or like say you want to use process accounting which will stop riting data when /var is >2% used by default if you have a 2TB / that is not helpful
2108 2011-07-31 20:01:41 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i've seen / shit itself lots of times.
2109 2011-07-31 20:02:06 <BlueMatt> if a modern linux shits all over /, then a. its not modern, and b. your computer is fucked up
2110 2011-07-31 20:02:09 <jrmithdobbs> gfinn: no if it's all in lvm you can grow them on demand. that's the point
2111 2011-07-31 20:02:23 <gfinn> right
2112 2011-07-31 20:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: kids these days
2113 2011-07-31 20:02:35 <BlueMatt> oh a server, ok maybe you might do some accounting to keep from writing too much
2114 2011-07-31 20:02:42 <BlueMatt> on a desktop, no way in hell is it worth it
2115 2011-07-31 20:02:46 <gfinn> filesystems get corrupted, like it or not
2116 2011-07-31 20:02:53 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, so I leave swap inside the LVM?
2117 2011-07-31 20:03:07 <BlueMatt> yes, but in a modern os, filesystems get corrupted at hardware failure, thats abou tit
2118 2011-07-31 20:03:09 <jrmithdobbs> fabianhjr: i'd put it outside the lvm personally
2119 2011-07-31 20:03:26 <BlueMatt> actually, that is it, there is no reason a modern kernel will corrupt a filesystem without hardware failure
2120 2011-07-31 20:03:34 <BlueMatt> and it has to be pretty harsh failure at that
2121 2011-07-31 20:03:41 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: cause doesn't matter, controllers fail in ways that will only effect portions of the disks all the time
2122 2011-07-31 20:03:53 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and that's a pretty huge fuckin assumption
2123 2011-07-31 20:04:05 <BlueMatt> if you controller fails, you arent worried about filsystem corruption, you are worried about getting something, anything back
2124 2011-07-31 20:04:09 <jrmithdobbs> there will never ever be another bug in the blockdev layer ever again in the future?
2125 2011-07-31 20:04:11 <BlueMatt> not the entire filesytem
2126 2011-07-31 20:04:17 <jrmithdobbs> there will never ever ever be another bug in fs code?
2127 2011-07-31 20:04:20 <jrmithdobbs> you live in a dream world
2128 2011-07-31 20:05:09 <BlueMatt> not saying that, Im saying its stable as hell today (ext3/4) and if it does crash, having your partitions separated isnt gonna help you, as the one you are writing to is the one thats gonna crash, so you are going to lose the important stuff as you write to the important partitions more often
2129 2011-07-31 20:05:14 <fabianhjr> http://imgur.com/uygjE <- I am there
2130 2011-07-31 20:05:17 <BlueMatt> eg /home
2131 2011-07-31 20:05:40 <gfinn> what you're writing to the most isn't necessarily the most important
2132 2011-07-31 20:05:42 bittwist_ has joined
2133 2011-07-31 20:05:48 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: anyways, the disk allocations needs alone are justification for splitting it out
2134 2011-07-31 20:05:55 <jrmithdobbs> s/allocations/allocation/
2135 2011-07-31 20:05:58 <gfinn> e.g. /var/log
2136 2011-07-31 20:06:05 <BlueMatt> there really is almost no reason to partition like a madman like people used to when hardware failed all the time
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2140 2011-07-31 20:06:28 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: stay away from my production boxes
2141 2011-07-31 20:06:31 <jrmithdobbs> seriously.
2142 2011-07-31 20:06:34 <BlueMatt> gfinn: it typically is, /tmp isnt used much, the only other exception is swap...which really isnt much of a filesystem...
2143 2011-07-31 20:06:49 <BlueMatt> if you are depending on fs not-corrupting your data, you are stupid
2144 2011-07-31 20:06:52 <BlueMatt> you should have good backups
2145 2011-07-31 20:06:53 <gfinn>  /tmp is used plenty
2146 2011-07-31 20:06:55 <gfinn> as is /var
2147 2011-07-31 20:06:57 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: this is why devs sholud be ignored on systems related things, just fyi
2148 2011-07-31 20:07:02 <BlueMatt> mine never gets touched...
2149 2011-07-31 20:07:11 <BlueMatt> who said I was a dev?
2150 2011-07-31 20:07:21 <BlueMatt> also, devs know better than anyone what is going on
2151 2011-07-31 20:07:25 <jrmithdobbs> you're definitely not an IT person, at least, not a competent one
2152 2011-07-31 20:07:35 <BlueMatt> no one partitions like that any more...
2153 2011-07-31 20:07:40 <jrmithdobbs> everyone does
2154 2011-07-31 20:07:45 <jrmithdobbs> in good environments
2155 2011-07-31 20:07:45 <BlueMatt> you have it all on separate disks and servers...
2156 2011-07-31 20:07:52 <BlueMatt> or, more likely vms
2157 2011-07-31 20:08:06 <jrmithdobbs> that way you can grow different fses with any random storage you attach to the fibre
2158 2011-07-31 20:08:09 <jrmithdobbs> etc
2159 2011-07-31 20:08:10 <fabianhjr> ? can we leave it at some do and some dont?
2160 2011-07-31 20:08:12 <jrmithdobbs> as needed
2161 2011-07-31 20:08:40 <BlueMatt> if something goes crazy and starts eating all your disk (the old argument for partitioning) then your servers are gonna be ok anyway
2162 2011-07-31 20:08:42 <jrmithdobbs> and not waste GBs and GBs of expensive storage space or have huge downtimes because some tard jr admin ollocated everything to /
2163 2011-07-31 20:08:48 <BlueMatt> you grow fses with vms just as easily
2164 2011-07-31 20:08:53 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, did you got the screen I am looking at that right now. What changes should I do?
2165 2011-07-31 20:09:11 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2166 2011-07-31 20:09:13 <BlueMatt> Im not saying allocate /everything/ on /
2167 2011-07-31 20:09:18 <gfinn> bluematt: did you notice we're talking about an external
2168 2011-07-31 20:09:22 bittwist has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2169 2011-07-31 20:09:23 <gfinn> HDD here?
2170 2011-07-31 20:09:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes you are
2171 2011-07-31 20:09:38 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you said there's no reason to split up the fses
2172 2011-07-31 20:09:42 <jrmithdobbs> that implies a single /
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2174 2011-07-31 20:09:50 <fabianhjr> gfinn, I think they are in a deep discussion. :/
2175 2011-07-31 20:09:53 <jrmithdobbs> what else could it possibly mean?
2176 2011-07-31 20:10:02 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2177 2011-07-31 20:10:04 <BlueMatt> I didnt say no reason to split them up
2178 2011-07-31 20:10:10 <BlueMatt> I said no reason to split them that far today
2179 2011-07-31 20:10:15 <BlueMatt> in the past, ok maybe
2180 2011-07-31 20:10:22 <jrmithdobbs> that far? 5 fses?
2181 2011-07-31 20:10:23 <fabianhjr> gfinn, so you got the screenshot. Is it ok like that?
2182 2011-07-31 20:10:30 <BlueMatt> today, you have them all on separate servers/vms anyway
2183 2011-07-31 20:10:36 <gfinn> I wouldn't split / from /usr
2184 2011-07-31 20:10:42 <jrmithdobbs> now you're just backpedaling
2185 2011-07-31 20:10:51 <BlueMatt> so, say, on your db server, you put your db (/var or whatever) on its partition, then leave the rest
2186 2011-07-31 20:10:53 <jrmithdobbs> and that comment makes no sense anyways
2187 2011-07-31 20:10:59 <gfinn> i don't see a screenshot
2188 2011-07-31 20:11:05 <BlueMatt> you still havnt given a reason to split them like that?
2189 2011-07-31 20:11:13 <fabianhjr> http://imgur.com/uygjE
2190 2011-07-31 20:11:21 <fabianhjr> Posted it eralier in the conversation.
2191 2011-07-31 20:11:23 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2192 2011-07-31 20:11:24 sytse_ has joined
2193 2011-07-31 20:11:28 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya? what happens when your log retention policy changes? or some asshat dd if=/dev/zero of=testfile in their home directory that's now on / on the db server?
2194 2011-07-31 20:11:35 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: guess what? your shit just crashed
2195 2011-07-31 20:11:45 <BlueMatt> you arent on a fucking server where asshats can do shit like that
2196 2011-07-31 20:11:49 nanotube has joined
2197 2011-07-31 20:11:57 <jrmithdobbs> you don't live in the real world
2198 2011-07-31 20:11:58 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
2199 2011-07-31 20:12:01 <BlueMatt> logs are on their own vms anyway
2200 2011-07-31 20:12:15 <jrmithdobbs> SHOULD they be doing that? no. WILL they? yes.
2201 2011-07-31 20:12:16 <BlueMatt> central log storage like a sane person
2202 2011-07-31 20:12:29 <jrmithdobbs> you usually keep central and local logs for debugging reasons
2203 2011-07-31 20:12:36 <BlueMatt> fabianhjr: first of all, is this a server or a desktop?
2204 2011-07-31 20:12:46 iz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2205 2011-07-31 20:12:47 <fabianhjr> Desktop, one user me.
2206 2011-07-31 20:12:49 <BlueMatt> yes, local logs to some extent, but not a crazy amount
2207 2011-07-31 20:12:51 <gfinn> fabian: like I said, that's a big /boot, but I don't care
2208 2011-07-31 20:13:00 <gfinn> 100 MB is way way more than enough for /boot
2209 2011-07-31 20:13:08 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: needs change. often.
2210 2011-07-31 20:13:10 <BlueMatt> ah, then yea that looks good, a home and / and /boot
2211 2011-07-31 20:13:10 <gfinn> 500 is huge
2212 2011-07-31 20:13:14 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that is why you split up the fses
2213 2011-07-31 20:13:23 sytse_ is now known as sytse
2214 2011-07-31 20:13:25 <gfinn> but it's fine
2215 2011-07-31 20:13:35 <BlueMatt> my /boot is like 150 here, but yea 500 is a bit much
2216 2011-07-31 20:13:41 <BlueMatt> (uses 150)
2217 2011-07-31 20:13:52 <gfinn>  / is plenty big, shouldn't fill up even if you install huge amounts of program
2218 2011-07-31 20:13:52 <BlueMatt> but its full of old kernels and crap
2219 2011-07-31 20:14:07 <tcatm> 500 isn't much if you upgrade the kernel a few times without checking space on /boot
2220 2011-07-31 20:14:09 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: needs change, often -> use a damn vm
2221 2011-07-31 20:14:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: vm doesn't help if you're running into things like the afore mentioned process accounting issue
2222 2011-07-31 20:14:35 <fabianhjr> gfinn, /boot is 100mb now
2223 2011-07-31 20:14:40 <gfinn> tcatm: way more than a few
2224 2011-07-31 20:14:43 <BlueMatt> tcatm: you have to upgrade very often to hit 500m
2225 2011-07-31 20:15:19 <gfinn> 50+ kernels
2226 2011-07-31 20:15:21 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: because i love wasting 100s of GB of space on a engineering machine just to keep ps acct data writing because / is several TB
2227 2011-07-31 20:15:22 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: what sane system eats space like that? if you have an admin who is stupid enough to be doing anything on the servers, anything at all on a running server, they should be fired
2228 2011-07-31 20:15:23 <tcatm> yep, but you might do that when the server runs for a few years
2229 2011-07-31 20:15:42 <gfinn> tcatm: delete the old ones. easy
2230 2011-07-31 20:15:49 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you don't live in the real world
2231 2011-07-31 20:15:52 <fabianhjr> Christ, are we tech people like that for every fucking small detail?
2232 2011-07-31 20:15:52 <BlueMatt> tcatm: true
2233 2011-07-31 20:16:09 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: maybe Im just too used to running my own servers where I dont have to trust any idiot jr admins
2234 2011-07-31 20:16:24 <jrmithdobbs> fabianhjr: that's kind of the point. this isn't a small detail and BlueMatt doesn't know what he's talking about because he's *never* worked in the real world from the sounds of it
2235 2011-07-31 20:16:30 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: or engineers
2236 2011-07-31 20:16:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: or dbas
2237 2011-07-31 20:17:01 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, I will be the only user. It is encrypted anmd only I know the 21 char long random generated password.
2238 2011-07-31 20:17:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: or incompetent sr admins that can't be fired due to not documenting some specific domain knowledge
2239 2011-07-31 20:17:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: or random business domain requirement changes
2240 2011-07-31 20:17:43 <BlueMatt> if a jr admin can push code to your production servers without it getting checked enough, the sr admins who let them do that need to be fired
2241 2011-07-31 20:17:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: splitting up fses sanely protects you from all the above in several very nasty (and not-to-uncommon) cases
2242 2011-07-31 20:17:58 <jrmithdobbs> it's not just production
2243 2011-07-31 20:18:02 <BlueMatt> the only case youve given is run-away disk usage
2244 2011-07-31 20:18:07 <jrmithdobbs> it's even more relevant in dev/qa environments
2245 2011-07-31 20:18:12 <fabianhjr> So you asked me to split /var, /usr, and /tmp. Thats it? How much for each?
2246 2011-07-31 20:18:13 denisx_ has joined
2247 2011-07-31 20:18:23 <jrmithdobbs> downtime in those environments means you have entire teams of very expensive employees sitting around doing nothing
2248 2011-07-31 20:18:23 <BlueMatt> which might very well cause a crash anyway, on most partitions
2249 2011-07-31 20:18:32 <luke-jr> the real time should always be acceptable ntime header, right? even if 50% of the blocks are timed nearly 2 hours into the future?
2250 2011-07-31 20:18:57 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: what a developer cant develop without a testing server???
2251 2011-07-31 20:18:57 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not just run away disk usage
2252 2011-07-31 20:19:04 <BlueMatt> damn the people you are talking about need to be fired
2253 2011-07-31 20:19:08 Blitzboom has joined
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2255 2011-07-31 20:19:08 Blitzboom has joined
2256 2011-07-31 20:19:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: devs will use *any* excuse to blame their delays on any other group they can
2257 2011-07-31 20:19:21 <jrmithdobbs> once again, you do not live in the real world
2258 2011-07-31 20:19:22 <BlueMatt> damn the people you are talking about need to be fired
2259 2011-07-31 20:19:33 <nanotube> luke-jr: blockchain time /is/ real time. :)
2260 2011-07-31 20:19:44 <BlueMatt> also, what company has /one/ testing server for a large team of devs?
2261 2011-07-31 20:19:50 <nanotube> luke-jr: but gotta read code to be sure :)
2262 2011-07-31 20:20:24 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2263 2011-07-31 20:20:24 <fabianhjr> nanotube you mean the blockchain is now the infinite improbability clock? This most be talked about on all science circles lol.
2264 2011-07-31 20:20:35 <fabianhjr> :P
2265 2011-07-31 20:20:47 <nanotube> hehe
2266 2011-07-31 20:20:49 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: again, youve only given the runaway disk usage example, which is what everyone always gives, but never really happens much in the real world (except for logs running away sometimes)
2267 2011-07-31 20:20:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: wait a few years. you'll start understanding.
2268 2011-07-31 20:20:52 MrTiggr has joined
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2270 2011-07-31 20:21:19 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: no, I didn't, things that stop outputinng (there are *several*, process accounting is the example i gave) on certain % usage scenarios
2271 2011-07-31 20:21:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: failures on certain fses not affecting others (hw or sw bug related)
2272 2011-07-31 20:21:48 <BlueMatt> you can do % usage limits without partitioning
2273 2011-07-31 20:21:59 <BlueMatt> (and Id argue its better to do it that way)
2274 2011-07-31 20:22:00 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: not when you're talking large disks you can't
2275 2011-07-31 20:22:06 <fabianhjr> jrmithdobbs, how do I partition it then?  2GB /, 2GB /var, 4GB /usr, 1GB /tmp, 4GB /home, 4GB swap ?
2276 2011-07-31 20:22:09 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what's 2% of 2TB
2277 2011-07-31 20:22:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you really want to waste that much space?
2278 2011-07-31 20:22:26 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2279 2011-07-31 20:22:27 denisx_ is now known as denisx
2280 2011-07-31 20:22:29 <luke-jr> nanotube: well, nodes will never accept blocks with ntime over 2 hours in the future
2281 2011-07-31 20:22:30 <BlueMatt> oh, you cant say that there isnt software to limit the disk usage of a user/process
2282 2011-07-31 20:22:39 <BlueMatt> that is just downright ignorant
2283 2011-07-31 20:22:59 <tcatm> jrmithdobbs: do you know the -m switch of mkfs.extX? :)
2284 2011-07-31 20:23:14 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: wtf
2285 2011-07-31 20:23:20 <jrmithdobbs> tcatm: that has nothing to do with anything i just said
2286 2011-07-31 20:23:33 <BlueMatt> re: fs failures, come on, if a partition crashes, your server is gonna have to go down to fix it, at least and if you dont have up-to-date backups, you are just being thick
2287 2011-07-31 20:23:56 <fabianhjr> luke-jr, the infinite improbability clock? It is based on the infinite improbability drive. Just search it.
2288 2011-07-31 20:24:10 <fabianhjr> It is also known as the Bitcoin blockchain.
2289 2011-07-31 20:24:16 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: sure, but minimizing the damage to a certain fs means less downtime
2290 2011-07-31 20:24:46 <BlueMatt> if you are using a sane backup system, it should take seconds to come back up
2291 2011-07-31 20:24:53 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Go Minoa * r70c90a..807a05 poclbm-gminor/ (defines.py BitcoinMiner.py gminor.py sha256.py): (8 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3s4y48l
2292 2011-07-31 20:24:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you spend a night recoving shit out lost+found until 7am by hand because a single fs wasn't split up properly
2293 2011-07-31 20:24:55 <fabianhjr> This is not by any means intended to be a server or otherwise stay up for more than 24 hours. :/
2294 2011-07-31 20:24:59 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you'll change your mind quick
2295 2011-07-31 20:25:01 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: erm, backups don't restore in seconds
2296 2011-07-31 20:25:23 <BlueMatt> if you have live backups on a second nas, you can switch to it instantly
2297 2011-07-31 20:25:24 <BlueMatt> was my point
2298 2011-07-31 20:25:26 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: backups for whole large fses take days to restore in some cases
2299 2011-07-31 20:25:34 <fabianhjr> gfinn, ok so I will just contnue with what Fedora gave me by default.
2300 2011-07-31 20:26:02 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ic, so you *are* living in a fantasy world where the business side actually listens to the techs when they talk about DR and worst cases scenarios re: best practices
2301 2011-07-31 20:26:13 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: lets have this discussion again 5 years when you've had a job.
2302 2011-07-31 20:26:16 <BlueMatt> heh, well that is true
2303 2011-07-31 20:26:34 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2304 2011-07-31 20:26:41 denisx has joined
2305 2011-07-31 20:26:45 <BlueMatt> that is a fair point, but a good tech can still get a good backup system that will restore near-instantly
2306 2011-07-31 20:26:54 <BlueMatt> on one good server
2307 2011-07-31 20:27:03 <jrmithdobbs> near-instant backup restores are a fantasy
2308 2011-07-31 20:27:04 denisx_ has joined
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2310 2011-07-31 20:27:43 <BlueMatt> it cant happen instantly, but if your backup takes like 30 minutes to come back, you are doing something wrong
2311 2011-07-31 20:27:44 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: not fantasy, science-fiction
2312 2011-07-31 20:28:16 <imsaguy> depends on what you're backing up, but you can have near-instant restores
2313 2011-07-31 20:28:20 <luke-jr> if your backup system is btrfs, you can just make a snapshot
2314 2011-07-31 20:28:22 <BlueMatt> also, the start of this conversation was about a desktop, where this is completely irrelevant
2315 2011-07-31 20:28:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yep, or a good vm system can as well
2316 2011-07-31 20:28:48 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: tell me how to restore a 60TB array in <30minutes
2317 2011-07-31 20:28:49 <jrmithdobbs> please
2318 2011-07-31 20:28:53 <jrmithdobbs> englighten me.
2319 2011-07-31 20:29:04 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: COW
2320 2011-07-31 20:29:12 <gmaxwell> If your backup comes online very fast it's not a backup.
2321 2011-07-31 20:29:22 <gmaxwell> Its online redundancy. Which you should have too.
2322 2011-07-31 20:29:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: excuse me, redundancy/snapshots
2323 2011-07-31 20:29:37 <gmaxwell> But many kinds of screwups will also break your online redundancy.
2324 2011-07-31 20:29:47 <jrmithdobbs> yup
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2326 2011-07-31 20:29:55 <BlueMatt> and fs corruption is not one of them
2327 2011-07-31 20:30:13 <jrmithdobbs> yes, actually, it is
2328 2011-07-31 20:30:25 <jrmithdobbs> if you're talking about snapshots.
2329 2011-07-31 20:30:27 <fabianhjr> So after doing the default partition I get this http://imgur.com/D4TW1
2330 2011-07-31 20:30:35 <BlueMatt> if your online redundancy is mirroring the raw data, yea
2331 2011-07-31 20:30:35 <jrmithdobbs> depending on whose snapshots you're using
2332 2011-07-31 20:30:42 <fabianhjr> Can I saftly remove the Other boot option?
2333 2011-07-31 20:30:51 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: and it is, in most large disk systems.
2334 2011-07-31 20:30:59 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2335 2011-07-31 20:31:00 denisx_ is now known as denisx
2336 2011-07-31 20:31:03 b4epoche_ has joined
2337 2011-07-31 20:31:06 <gmaxwell> Yea, depends on what you're doing exactly. Also: another advantage of seperate file systems is reduced fragmentation, which is still a bit of an issue when you mix filesystems with vastly different file-lifetimes even on fragementation resistant fses.
2338 2011-07-31 20:31:34 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2339 2011-07-31 20:31:39 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you are doing something wrong
2340 2011-07-31 20:31:49 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: tell netapp/emc
2341 2011-07-31 20:32:31 <fabianhjr> gmaxwell, http://imgur.com/D4TW1 can I safely remove Other and just have the Fedora option?
2342 2011-07-31 20:32:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats true, but only in very rare circumstances, if you are doing vms like anyone will be if they have that kind of space (or dedicated storage for a db, in which case partitioning is a moot point as its all for your db) then its not really a big deal
2343 2011-07-31 20:32:55 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: vms will make his example worse, actually.
2344 2011-07-31 20:33:07 <BlueMatt> fabianhjr: looks like the other is your windows install on /dev/sda
2345 2011-07-31 20:33:15 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: your vms will fragment?
2346 2011-07-31 20:33:28 <BlueMatt> your vm software sucks
2347 2011-07-31 20:33:30 <fabianhjr> Yes, though it will still ahve its bootloader
2348 2011-07-31 20:33:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: cause now you have fragementation across multiple vms with your proposed huge fses doing random seeks constantly
2349 2011-07-31 20:33:45 <gmaxwell> fabianhjr: yes, but what is that partition at all?
2350 2011-07-31 20:33:55 <BlueMatt> fabianhjr: if you install grub to /dev/sdb and dont touch sda, you should be ok to boot of sda from bios to get into windows
2351 2011-07-31 20:34:10 <fabianhjr> An internal HDD of a computer I am borrowing
2352 2011-07-31 20:34:25 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: no, your understanding of actualy computer system (especially related to storage) implementation sucks, not vmware ;p
2353 2011-07-31 20:34:29 <fabianhjr> Yes, that is my intention.
2354 2011-07-31 20:34:30 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: if your vm software lets 1TB drive images get fragmented on disk, your vm software sucks
2355 2011-07-31 20:34:34 <jrmithdobbs> s/actualy/actual/
2356 2011-07-31 20:34:52 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the fs living on those images are what get fragmented
2357 2011-07-31 20:35:07 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: now you have a bunch of vms with fragmented files on the same data store
2358 2011-07-31 20:35:14 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: also, fs splits doesnt help here, unless you are doing physical allocation of partitions to vms via raw disks
2359 2011-07-31 20:35:39 <jrmithdobbs> yes actually, it does, because you move, eg, your mail queue (high write/delete occurance) to a sep fs
2360 2011-07-31 20:35:46 <BlueMatt> the individual vms' fses wont fragment much, its the actual disk images that will
2361 2011-07-31 20:35:47 <fabianhjr> gmaxwell, ok, I am moving forward and installing on the sdb the external hdd.
2362 2011-07-31 20:36:01 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: vmware wont let you do that unless you do it via different disks
2363 2011-07-31 20:36:16 <BlueMatt> if you roll your own xen or something, yea you could
2364 2011-07-31 20:36:22 <jrmithdobbs> say what
2365 2011-07-31 20:36:28 <BlueMatt> esxi wont
2366 2011-07-31 20:36:44 <jrmithdobbs> what does esxi have to do with using lvm iside the vm?
2367 2011-07-31 20:36:53 <BlueMatt> Im not talking inside the vm
2368 2011-07-31 20:36:59 <BlueMatt> Im talking about the images of the vm drives
2369 2011-07-31 20:37:21 <jrmithdobbs> because you're misunderstanding the problem i guess
2370 2011-07-31 20:37:21 <imsaguy> you solve that by preallocating the image
2371 2011-07-31 20:37:21 <BlueMatt> inside the vm, the fragmentation is helped by the fact that you have less writes to less files
2372 2011-07-31 20:37:37 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: or we are discussing different problems
2373 2011-07-31 20:37:39 <BlueMatt> imsaguy: that works
2374 2011-07-31 20:37:44 <fabianhjr> gmaxwell, my previous issue was that when I selected a boot device it would simply skip sdb and boot from sda
2375 2011-07-31 20:38:13 <fabianhjr> gmaxwell, so I was wondering if grub got installed, then all this discussion poped up.:/
2376 2011-07-31 20:38:33 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: there are two fses that can get fragmented, the physical server's one, which I showed you is pretty much wrong, and the virtual ones, which is also wrong
2377 2011-07-31 20:38:36 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> inside the vm, the fragmentation is helped by the fact that you have less writes to less files
2378 2011-07-31 20:38:51 asher^ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2379 2011-07-31 20:38:59 <BlueMatt> so fragmentation is not an issue for either fs that can get fragmented
2380 2011-07-31 20:39:20 <BlueMatt> also, this has absolutely nothing to do with splitting the fses, on vms fragmentation isnt really a problem on vm disk images
2381 2011-07-31 20:39:33 <BlueMatt> so split isnt an argument
2382 2011-07-31 20:40:38 dbitcoin has joined
2383 2011-07-31 20:40:38 <fabianhjr> Ok, so I finish the insallation and fedora claims it was succesful. Any way I can check if GRUB was installed correctly?
2384 2011-07-31 20:40:53 <BlueMatt> try to boot from that drive
2385 2011-07-31 20:41:14 <fabianhjr> Well, brb, going to borrow a second compuiter
2386 2011-07-31 20:41:44 enquirer has joined
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2390 2011-07-31 20:44:44 <BlueMatt> anyway, for a server where your environment sucks and you dont trust anyone and every admin is an idiot, yea splitting your fses a ton is probably a good idea, for everyone else, theres mastercard^H^H^H^Hsane minor splitting or none at all if you are running vms like most people do these days anyway
2391 2011-07-31 20:45:11 <imsaguy> heh
2392 2011-07-31 20:46:06 <JFK911> is there a free PXE -> iSCSI boot thing
2393 2011-07-31 20:46:20 <fabianhjr> Ok, tried to boot. The computer starts, select a boot option.(USB Device - WD MyBook) and it skips to Winblos.
2394 2011-07-31 20:47:06 <BlueMatt> sdb was a usb drive?
2395 2011-07-31 20:47:15 <fabianhjr> Should I edit the CMOS to by default try to boot from USB/HDDs?
2396 2011-07-31 20:47:22 <fabianhjr> Yes, it was
2397 2011-07-31 20:47:32 <fabianhjr> It is the external drive
2398 2011-07-31 20:47:36 <BlueMatt> no, if its not booting when you select it there is a problem
2399 2011-07-31 20:47:47 <BlueMatt> does your bios say usb FDD or usb HDD?
2400 2011-07-31 20:47:50 <BlueMatt> or neither?
2401 2011-07-31 20:48:10 <fabianhjr> Neither USB-Device MyBook [id] 3TB
2402 2011-07-31 20:48:18 gmaxwell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2403 2011-07-31 20:48:25 gmaxwell has joined
2404 2011-07-31 20:48:25 <BlueMatt> well then its probably ok...maybe grub failed to install...
2405 2011-07-31 20:48:28 Xunie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2406 2011-07-31 20:48:29 <BlueMatt> but the installer didnt complain?
2407 2011-07-31 20:48:29 sanchaz has joined
2408 2011-07-31 20:48:39 <fabianhjr> No it didn-t
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2411 2011-07-31 20:49:18 <fabianhjr> I had the problem with Ubuntu that would complain it couldnt install the bootloader, so I moved to Fedora that I also had on a disc.
2412 2011-07-31 20:49:40 <BlueMatt> what did it say?
2413 2011-07-31 20:49:43 <fabianhjr> I honsetly would have start with Fedora since I love GNOME3 rather than the buggy unity.
2414 2011-07-31 20:49:47 <BlueMatt> do you know the error message?
2415 2011-07-31 20:49:54 <fabianhjr> Error installing the bootloader
2416 2011-07-31 20:50:01 Xunie has joined
2417 2011-07-31 20:50:03 * BlueMatt hates gnome3 and unity, but thats just me
2418 2011-07-31 20:50:05 <prof7bit> are all types of usb devices bootable? I thought some are not?
2419 2011-07-31 20:50:06 <fabianhjr> I uploaded some logs to launchpad and filled a bug report
2420 2011-07-31 20:50:24 <imsaguy> pretty much any of the newer usb thumb drives are
2421 2011-07-31 20:50:27 <BlueMatt> prof7bit: 99% of usb drives should be fine, its the bioses that might not always work
2422 2011-07-31 20:50:37 <imsaguy> some of the older ones will have issues
2423 2011-07-31 20:50:38 <BlueMatt> but that too, new ones should be fine
2424 2011-07-31 20:50:52 iz has joined
2425 2011-07-31 20:50:58 <imsaguy> the medium aged bioses had to have it turned on
2426 2011-07-31 20:51:05 <imsaguy> the new ones seem to ship with them turned on
2427 2011-07-31 20:51:19 <BlueMatt> some like to try fdd mode first, which is just stupid...
2428 2011-07-31 20:51:25 <BlueMatt> but new ones should all work great
2429 2011-07-31 20:52:12 <fabianhjr> Well, I tried it with a GB mobo whioch is new.(X54/UD7) and also wouldnt boot.
2430 2011-07-31 20:52:14 <BlueMatt> fabianhjr: can you try booting a livecd, mounting the relevant drives, chrooting and trying to grub-install manually via terminal?
2431 2011-07-31 20:52:24 <fabianhjr> Will do.
2432 2011-07-31 20:52:48 <JFK911> usb is pretty easy.  who wants to help me boot iSCSI?  its cutting edge
2433 2011-07-31 20:52:58 <xelister> BlueMatt: you heared the story that 17,000 btc was lost in bitomat.pl?
2434 2011-07-31 20:52:59 fabianhjr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2435 2011-07-31 20:53:25 <erus`> readit on reddit
2436 2011-07-31 20:54:15 fabianhjr has joined
2437 2011-07-31 20:54:24 <BlueMatt> what?
2438 2011-07-31 20:54:28 <BlueMatt> xelister: link?
2439 2011-07-31 20:54:29 <fabianhjr> weird, screen went black and was loged out when I pluged the hdd.
2440 2011-07-31 20:54:54 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Go Minoa * r59b9b7d0d326 poclbm-gminor/BitcoinMiner.py: less debug http://tinyurl.com/43pahll
2441 2011-07-31 20:55:47 <BlueMatt> xelister: trololololol
2442 2011-07-31 20:55:50 <BlueMatt> so funny
2443 2011-07-31 20:56:19 <luke-jr> bitomat just lost their wallet fyi
2444 2011-07-31 20:56:34 <BlueMatt> because they clearly didnt know what "backups" means
2445 2011-07-31 20:56:51 desaiu has joined
2446 2011-07-31 20:57:01 <luke-jr> heh
2447 2011-07-31 20:57:08 <imsaguy> one more reason you can't just trust anyone setting up a bitcoin service
2448 2011-07-31 20:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you didn't understand the whole fragmentation issue, but w/e, and if you can trust all your users and jr admins your environment is the *exception* despite what you seem to think
2449 2011-07-31 20:57:16 <luke-jr> "I made a second copy in another directory!"
2450 2011-07-31 20:57:22 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: either way, done arguing about it
2451 2011-07-31 20:57:33 b4epoche_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2452 2011-07-31 20:57:42 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah that is pretty facepalm worthy
2453 2011-07-31 20:57:51 <imsaguy> if you're done arguing, then why the last elbow jab?
2454 2011-07-31 20:57:57 <imsaguy> gotta get the last word
2455 2011-07-31 20:58:00 <phantomcircuit> there are backups for britcoin in 3 physical locations plus my pocket at all times
2456 2011-07-31 20:58:13 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: you didnt state a fragmentation issue, you said "fragmentation" and I explained why both situations are invalid arguemnts
2457 2011-07-31 20:58:17 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: in any case, whatever
2458 2011-07-31 20:58:31 <JFK911> phantomcircuit: you need to hide it in a body cavity.  some clown can pickpocket you.
2459 2011-07-31 20:58:42 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: no you "explained" why your misunderstanding of the issue was invalid
2460 2011-07-31 20:59:07 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: then actually state the problem, aside from saying "fragmentation is an issue"
2461 2011-07-31 20:59:31 <BlueMatt> and no, I stated why fragmentation in a vm system isnt an issue for the two possible locations fragmentation can happen
2462 2011-07-31 20:59:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: say you have 4 500GB volumes allocated to 4 vms on a given data store, all of said vms have their volumes allocated as you described, just /boot split off from /
2463 2011-07-31 20:59:36 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, it's encrypted obviously
2464 2011-07-31 21:00:01 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and when you get run over by a car, who has the pass?
2465 2011-07-31 21:00:04 <JFK911> still you want to hold onto it in case its the last surviving copy
2466 2011-07-31 21:00:05 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: say one vm is a mail server, one a db, and the other two webservers that retain their own logs
2467 2011-07-31 21:00:10 <xelister> BlueMatt: well they made a backup
2468 2011-07-31 21:00:14 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, genjix and donald
2469 2011-07-31 21:00:14 <xelister> ON THE SAME SERVE
2470 2011-07-31 21:00:19 <xelister>  <bitomat.pl
2471 2011-07-31 21:00:22 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, in envelops
2472 2011-07-31 21:00:26 <xelister>  <bitomat.pl> I will store this 200,000 USD file here ok?
2473 2011-07-31 21:00:27 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: hehe, I know you arent stupid, I was just trolling
2474 2011-07-31 21:00:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, oh shit i know what im doing XD
2475 2011-07-31 21:00:30 <xelister>  <ec2> no problem
2476 2011-07-31 21:00:47 <xelister>  <ec2> bro I will just reboot really quick and delete your wallet.dat
2477 2011-07-31 21:00:50 <xelister>  <ec2> problem bro?
2478 2011-07-31 21:01:18 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: for the sake of pretending this is actually a realworld scenario (since vmware has a max datastore size of 2TB) these volumes were not preallocated because other vms will need to live in this data store later on and 500GB is way overprovisioned
2479 2011-07-31 21:01:18 pumpkin has joined
2480 2011-07-31 21:01:18 <BlueMatt> oh, let me make a backup really quickly...bitcoind backupwallet ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat.backup
2481 2011-07-31 21:01:25 <BlueMatt> done :)
2482 2011-07-31 21:01:29 <xelister> BlueMatt: no problem bro
2483 2011-07-31 21:01:41 <xelister> BlueMatt: bro, entire HOME is on temporary partition
2484 2011-07-31 21:01:49 <JFK911> vmware runs on windoze which automatically defrags the fs in background
2485 2011-07-31 21:01:57 <xelister> BlueMatt: you bought Elastic Compuing, not a server.... problem bro? :-}
2486 2011-07-31 21:01:58 <BlueMatt> xelister: who am I, someone who reads the instructions?
2487 2011-07-31 21:02:20 b4epoche_ has joined
2488 2011-07-31 21:02:23 <BlueMatt> JFK911: trolololol
2489 2011-07-31 21:02:31 <xelister> hey I have 200,000 USD file
2490 2011-07-31 21:02:39 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: now, your mailserver's mail queue is pretty damned busy with lots of writes/deletes so it's volume is going to grow on disk continually, your http servers are pretty active and so their logs will grow at a fairly stable rate, and the db is a db provisioned by your average dba who isn't that bright
2491 2011-07-31 21:02:42 <JFK911> BlueMatt: it does, you can turn it off with a policy change
2492 2011-07-31 21:02:43 <xelister> I think I should like copy it to my local computer too
2493 2011-07-31 21:02:47 <xelister> no, actually...
2494 2011-07-31 21:02:51 <xelister> :fuck this bitch:
2495 2011-07-31 21:02:57 * xelister plays minecraft instead :D/
2496 2011-07-31 21:03:04 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2497 2011-07-31 21:03:07 <BlueMatt> JFK911: vmware isnt running /on/ windows
2498 2011-07-31 21:03:08 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the writes/deletes of the mailqueue are going to make seek times on the db server worse and worse and worse as time goes on every time your mail queue gets to a point where it's bigger than it ever was in the past
2499 2011-07-31 21:03:27 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: the writes on the db server are going to fragment the logs and mailqueue on the mail/http servers in a similar fashion
2500 2011-07-31 21:03:30 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I see what you are saying, but you didnt read what my response was to that exact problem
2501 2011-07-31 21:03:35 <JFK911> BlueMatt: well it should be.  Watch your MFT as you create three huge files and add bits to them as jrmithdobbs says
2502 2011-07-31 21:03:44 <JFK911> they will stick together
2503 2011-07-31 21:03:46 <BlueMatt> JFK911: trololol
2504 2011-07-31 21:03:47 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: now all 4 vms are seeking all over the place for basically every disk access
2505 2011-07-31 21:04:04 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: yes, its a great problem, no go back and read your scrollback
2506 2011-07-31 21:04:07 <ThomasV> xelister: perhaps all bitcoin exchanges should make a statement about their backups and security procedures ...
2507 2011-07-31 21:04:16 <JFK911> also windoze has huge disk caches, to the point where running programs will get paged out to make room for disk cache
2508 2011-07-31 21:04:24 <JFK911> so, most of the disk accesses will be cached
2509 2011-07-31 21:04:39 <xelister> ThomasV: yea. users should think more
2510 2011-07-31 21:04:55 <BlueMatt> JFK911: you actually think people should be running vmware on top of windows for a server??? trololololol
2511 2011-07-31 21:04:56 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr reject_reason_header * r91f1253a7f11 pushpool-personal/msg.c: Send X-Reject-Reason with JSON-RPC share rejections http://tinyurl.com/3muwddk
2512 2011-07-31 21:05:30 <JFK911> BlueMatt: well until I can run vmware on something that supports zfs, windoze is the host with the most reliable storage
2513 2011-07-31 21:05:39 <BlueMatt> wtf???
2514 2011-07-31 21:05:42 <BlueMatt> you are mad
2515 2011-07-31 21:05:46 <JFK911> yeah
2516 2011-07-31 21:05:52 <JFK911> im mad that centos wont support zfs
2517 2011-07-31 21:06:02 <JFK911> i want my zpools
2518 2011-07-31 21:06:04 <BlueMatt> windows reliable??? TROLOLOLOLOL
2519 2011-07-31 21:06:18 <JFK911> yea when have you crashed ntfs?
2520 2011-07-31 21:06:32 <JFK911> im sure if you did it was major futzage
2521 2011-07-31 21:06:37 <JFK911> its pretty resilient
2522 2011-07-31 21:06:37 <BlueMatt> ntfs, no, windows god yes, all the fucking time
2523 2011-07-31 21:06:51 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you didn't address it at all that i can see
2524 2011-07-31 21:06:56 <JFK911> linux crashes all the time if you give it to a user
2525 2011-07-31 21:06:57 <JFK911> so can mac
2526 2011-07-31 21:07:01 <BlueMatt> ext3/4, not without hardware failure, linux, nope
2527 2011-07-31 21:07:09 <BlueMatt> lol, youmad
2528 2011-07-31 21:07:12 <JFK911> ext3/4 is great in some aspects
2529 2011-07-31 21:07:13 <JFK911> such as
2530 2011-07-31 21:07:25 <JFK911> when you mount it readonly it will still play out the fucking journal
2531 2011-07-31 21:07:25 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: you asserted that separated fses wouldn't help, but they would. especially with ext3/4 since you're going to get the majority of the space allocated on fs creation just because of how ext3/4 work
2532 2011-07-31 21:07:32 <JFK911> i like that a lot
2533 2011-07-31 21:07:38 <JFK911> its a convenient helpful feature
2534 2011-07-31 21:07:44 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: but didn't back up the claim
2535 2011-07-31 21:08:07 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: jesus christ that is so annoying
2536 2011-07-31 21:08:09 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2537 2011-07-31 21:08:22 <JFK911> BlueMatt: i dont know you must have missed every ubuntu user asking for help on the internet...
2538 2011-07-31 21:08:37 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: or every jr admin anyone's ever worked with
2539 2011-07-31 21:08:39 <JFK911> at least when windoze people cry, you know they got some malware by doing something dumb on the internet
2540 2011-07-31 21:08:59 <JFK911> yeah i'll ust go to TWIITER.COM whats this FREE STUFF
2541 2011-07-31 21:09:10 <JFK911> i'll CLICK YES and PUT MY NAME AND ADDRESS IN
2542 2011-07-31 21:09:18 <jrmithdobbs> hells ya
2543 2011-07-31 21:09:27 <jrmithdobbs> free ipad? please sir
2544 2011-07-31 21:09:33 <jrmithdobbs> here is my banking info
2545 2011-07-31 21:09:49 <phantomcircuit> lol i know someone making serious money on spamming facebook
2546 2011-07-31 21:09:59 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: 1. esxi wont let you provision fses on its drives so... 2. if your vm server is allocating vm disks in little tiny chunks, you need to get a new one, any sane vm server will allocate drive space not in chunks consecutively, but in more sane locations on disk to prevent that exact allocation 3. if you are running something large enough to care about fragmentation, you should probably be pre-allocating and/or using multiple sans/nases
2547 2011-07-31 21:10:02 <phantomcircuit> CLICK HERE TO SEE A PICTURE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD!!!1!!!!
2548 2011-07-31 21:10:07 <imsaguy> uh
2549 2011-07-31 21:10:10 <BlueMatt> JFK911: have you ever used windows server?
2550 2011-07-31 21:10:14 <imsaguy> stupid people aren't limited to windows
2551 2011-07-31 21:10:26 <imsaguy> as evidenced by the last few comments above
2552 2011-07-31 21:10:34 <imsaguy> :p
2553 2011-07-31 21:10:36 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
2554 2011-07-31 21:10:39 <BlueMatt> funny
2555 2011-07-31 21:10:54 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2556 2011-07-31 21:11:05 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: what the hell does 1. even mean? it's nonsensical. 2. it has gotten better in newer hypervisors, yes, nowhere near perfect. 3. not the point. you said it was never an issue.
2557 2011-07-31 21:11:43 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: 1. if you install esxi, there is no "partition" option on its drives, you allocate a drive for use, not a partition
2558 2011-07-31 21:12:02 <jrmithdobbs> what does that have to do with anything?
2559 2011-07-31 21:12:04 <BlueMatt> yes a self-rolled xen/etc hypervisor you can
2560 2011-07-31 21:12:18 <jrmithdobbs> a virtual volume still lives on the the datastore?
2561 2011-07-31 21:12:18 <JFK911> BlueMatt: im using it now.  i admit i do get surprises once in a while.  they are usually more on the lines of "You need 475 prerequisities to do this" rather than "HA HA you said READ ONLY but IM GOING TO REPLAY YOUR JOURNAL"
2562 2011-07-31 21:12:20 <BlueMatt> you said you should partition out, well you cant
2563 2011-07-31 21:12:29 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: *inside the vm*
2564 2011-07-31 21:12:43 <BlueMatt> how does that help the host fragmentation issue?
2565 2011-07-31 21:12:44 <JFK911> i think the biggest point is, windoze and linux both work fine, when competent people are driving
2566 2011-07-31 21:13:10 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: specifically with ext3/4 as you were talking about, most of the space will get allocated on fs creation
2567 2011-07-31 21:13:16 lebish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2568 2011-07-31 21:13:18 <JFK911> i want to put all my vm disks in a zpool and hit them over iscsi but i need some pxe ibft loader
2569 2011-07-31 21:13:22 <jrmithdobbs> because of how ext3/4 fs creation happens
2570 2011-07-31 21:13:34 lebish has joined
2571 2011-07-31 21:13:35 <jrmithdobbs> preventing the host-level fragmentation no matter how smart the hypervisor is at storage allocation
2572 2011-07-31 21:13:55 <jrmithdobbs> i've said that like 3 times now
2573 2011-07-31 21:14:05 <BlueMatt> JFK911: windows works ok for servers you never touch, but tends to still not be as stable as a linux box will be
2574 2011-07-31 21:14:15 <BlueMatt> yea, it works ok if a competent person is driving...
2575 2011-07-31 21:14:30 <jrmithdobbs> not to mention that if you ere trying to prevent fragmentation you'd write zeros across the lv expected to have large random writes/deletes before provisioning the fs
2576 2011-07-31 21:14:31 <JFK911> jrmithdobbs: your vmdk will have all the superblock backups etc. at that point, but all the zero sectors in between shouldnt be written
2577 2011-07-31 21:14:33 <BlueMatt> but for a server, its just still not quite as rock-solid as a good linux install will be by a competent admin
2578 2011-07-31 21:14:36 <jrmithdobbs> so yes, that would help
2579 2011-07-31 21:14:59 <JFK911> writing zeros to a new sector doesnt seem to grow the vmdk
2580 2011-07-31 21:15:07 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: as JFK911 points out, none of the space where data will go will be allocated
2581 2011-07-31 21:15:15 <JFK911> if there are sectors written with zeros, "shrink" will prune them out
2582 2011-07-31 21:15:16 <BlueMatt> so ext creation process wont help here at all
2583 2011-07-31 21:15:26 <JFK911> i havent looked at the vmdk but i think maybe it adds all new data to the end
2584 2011-07-31 21:15:33 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: yes but it will be sparse and reserve the chunks in between
2585 2011-07-31 21:15:36 <JFK911> it only needs to keep a map in memory
2586 2011-07-31 21:15:41 <JFK911> just like any LVM
2587 2011-07-31 21:15:56 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: if it reserves the chunks in between, then you are just preallocating the disk
2588 2011-07-31 21:15:58 <jrmithdobbs> at least it did last i did any extensive testing on it (but that was esx3)
2589 2011-07-31 21:16:00 desaiu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2590 2011-07-31 21:16:12 <JFK911> esx seems to act wildly different
2591 2011-07-31 21:16:38 <BlueMatt> it will allocate some, but not enough to where it helps the fragmentation issue much at all
2592 2011-07-31 21:16:43 desaiu has joined
2593 2011-07-31 21:17:07 <JFK911> zpool is the answer
2594 2011-07-31 21:17:07 peterpansen has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2595 2011-07-31 21:17:34 <BlueMatt> also, this is unrelated to the split-partitions issue, if you allocate more partitions, yes you will get a larger vmdk as more is allocated, but that is just because you have more data in the superblocks and headers in total
2596 2011-07-31 21:17:45 <BlueMatt> but it really wont help host fragmentation
2597 2011-07-31 21:18:00 <JFK911> i donno i would put different slices in different vmdk
2598 2011-07-31 21:18:08 <JFK911> you ought to do that already for paging
2599 2011-07-31 21:18:12 <JFK911> filesystem -> raidset
2600 2011-07-31 21:18:15 <JFK911> pagefiles -> bare disk
2601 2011-07-31 21:18:34 <BlueMatt> unless esx is allocating a ton of space around written sectors, in which case you are just preallocating your space
2602 2011-07-31 21:18:57 <JFK911> im only paging to raidset on bare metal
2603 2011-07-31 21:19:27 <BlueMatt> having swap on a separate, lower redundancy raidset is fine too
2604 2011-07-31 21:19:37 terracotta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2605 2011-07-31 21:19:41 <JFK911> i only want it on the bare metal boxes in case a swap disk dies
2606 2011-07-31 21:19:42 <BlueMatt> but that is unrelated to "split your fs into 20 partitions" arguement
2607 2011-07-31 21:20:16 ninjaneo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2608 2011-07-31 21:20:35 pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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2610 2011-07-31 21:34:02 TheZimm has joined
2611 2011-07-31 21:36:51 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, split your fs into at least 6 pieces
2612 2011-07-31 21:37:26 <phantomcircuit>  / /opt /usr /var /var/log /var/lib /home /tmp as tmpfs
2613 2011-07-31 21:37:28 <phantomcircuit> SHAZAM
2614 2011-07-31 21:37:41 <BlueMatt> ...
2615 2011-07-31 21:37:58 <phantomcircuit>  /opt because that's always oracle and they suck
2616 2011-07-31 21:38:09 <phantomcircuit>  /var/log to stop logs from filling up the disk
2617 2011-07-31 21:38:20 <phantomcircuit>  /var/lib for dbs
2618 2011-07-31 21:38:25 <phantomcircuit> others are self explanatory
2619 2011-07-31 21:39:09 <BlueMatt> /var/log is about the only one you have a valid reason to do (unless you are on a db server, in which case put the db on its own, or mail server put the mail on its own, etc is probably a good idea)
2620 2011-07-31 21:39:25 <BlueMatt> and maybe /tmp on tmpfs just for the hell of it
2621 2011-07-31 21:40:31 <phantomcircuit> for a colo box you want to have / just have what's needed to start ssh
2622 2011-07-31 21:40:51 <phantomcircuit> it significantly increases the chances that the box comes back up to at least ssh after a power failure
2623 2011-07-31 21:40:58 <b4epoche_> who the hell is xelister anyway?  <xelister> neofutur: I write 2 big software projects for bitcoin and possible develop bitcoin main client, who the hell are you
2624 2011-07-31 21:41:12 <b4epoche_> what does he speak of?
2625 2011-07-31 21:41:26 huk has quit ()
2626 2011-07-31 21:41:32 <erus`> i think the more important part was, who the hell are you?
2627 2011-07-31 21:41:35 <xelister> b4epoche_: #btcfn and wonderfull new project including exchange. and few utilities
2628 2011-07-31 21:41:43 <xelister> erus`: it was not at b4epoche_ ;)
2629 2011-07-31 21:41:57 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: thats also a good idea, but 6 partitions on a vm is just pointless
2630 2011-07-31 21:42:26 <xelister> BlueMatt: hm, perhaps possiblity to define other flags like noexec for some?
2631 2011-07-31 21:42:26 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, oh on a vm? yes just /var/log
2632 2011-07-31 21:42:33 <phantomcircuit>  /var/lib if it's got a db on it
2633 2011-07-31 21:42:38 <b4epoche_> xelister: these project got names?
2634 2011-07-31 21:42:42 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that was my whole point
2635 2011-07-31 21:43:01 <xelister> b4epoche_: #btcfn and bestexchangeintheuniversedotcom
2636 2011-07-31 21:43:05 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's going to be sitting on a SAN anyways
2637 2011-07-31 21:43:07 <phantomcircuit> no point
2638 2011-07-31 21:43:23 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: most people use vms these days so splitting a drive into 6 partitions is just pointless as hell
2639 2011-07-31 21:43:41 <phantomcircuit> well depends on whether it's automated or not
2640 2011-07-31 21:43:50 <phantomcircuit> it more or less wont hurt
2641 2011-07-31 21:43:55 <BlueMatt> on one dedicated server, you probably want to split some based on servers, but too much is just pointless as hell
2642 2011-07-31 21:44:13 <BlueMatt> xelister: ?
2643 2011-07-31 21:44:17 * b4epoche_ didn't know xelister was such a bad ass...
2644 2011-07-31 21:44:42 <phantomcircuit> xelister, mines gonna be better
2645 2011-07-31 21:44:46 <phantomcircuit> sorry to disappoint you
2646 2011-07-31 21:44:54 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * rc5734bdf3e66 poclbm-personal/ (HttpTransport.py Transport.py): Merge branch 'reject_reason' into combo http://tinyurl.com/3weka6g
2647 2011-07-31 21:45:10 <xelister> phantomcircuit: how long one needs to wait for in-transfer to be confirmed?
2648 2011-07-31 21:45:15 <b4epoche_> w(ho)tf is going to trust an exchange run by xelister?
2649 2011-07-31 21:45:19 <xelister> BlueMatt: just saying. splitting into separate partitions can has it's uses
2650 2011-07-31 21:45:38 <xelister> b4epoche_: people that don't want to be goxed or bitomated :D
2651 2011-07-31 21:45:40 <BlueMatt> xelister: you can do that (arguably better) via non-partitioning methods
2652 2011-07-31 21:45:48 <phantomcircuit> xelister, in-transfer?
2653 2011-07-31 21:46:03 <BlueMatt> xelister: have you guys actually gotten anywhere beyond planning on btcfn?
2654 2011-07-31 21:46:23 <fabianhjr> what is btcfn?
2655 2011-07-31 21:46:28 BlueMattBot has joined
2656 2011-07-31 21:46:29 <xelister> phantomcircuit: when transfering funds into exchange, how long does you need to wait (e.g. 4 confirmations on mtgox = ~30 minutes+)
2657 2011-07-31 21:46:38 <b4epoche_> is #btcfn an irc channel?  developed by xelister ?  amazing
2658 2011-07-31 21:46:52 <fabianhjr> BBL
2659 2011-07-31 21:47:08 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2660 2011-07-31 21:47:11 <BlueMatt> b4epoche_: currently, yep thats the idea
2661 2011-07-31 21:47:21 <xelister> BlueMatt: our investors and/or us publish projects when there is something good to show
2662 2011-07-31 21:47:26 <phantomcircuit> xelister, that's 100% a tunable setting, the major delay for everything is the bank transfers
2663 2011-07-31 21:47:27 <xelister> b4epoche_: that's right
2664 2011-07-31 21:47:35 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2665 2011-07-31 21:47:41 <BlueMatt> xelister: lol ok
2666 2011-07-31 21:47:47 <b4epoche_> so, one of his super-mega-projects is starting an irc channel?
2667 2011-07-31 21:47:54 <xelister> phantomcircuit: how about exchange that after few seconds already is as secure as waiting 100+ confirmations =)
2668 2011-07-31 21:48:32 <xelister> b4epoche_: you sound trolling so I don't want really to talk to you now =) fell free to review project when publically available
2669 2011-07-31 21:48:37 <phantomcircuit> xelister, all you'd need is a large number of well connected nodes correlating transactions on the network
2670 2011-07-31 21:48:43 <phantomcircuit> which isn't hard to do actually
2671 2011-07-31 21:49:01 <b4epoche_> are these two serious?  no one in their right mind would let either handle their money
2672 2011-07-31 21:49:24 <phantomcircuit> ?
2673 2011-07-31 21:49:41 <xelister> phantomcircuit: you say 1 confirmation can be enough? no I don't think so... even if major pools confirmed it
2674 2011-07-31 21:49:45 <phantomcircuit> alternatively you could charge a % fee for accepting early bitcoin transaction
2675 2011-07-31 21:49:55 <xelister> phantomcircuit: anyway this super-pools situation is bad
2676 2011-07-31 21:49:58 sgornick has joined
2677 2011-07-31 21:49:59 <phantomcircuit> which would easily cover the spread
2678 2011-07-31 21:50:22 <xelister> phantomcircuit: well you see, one can make exchange where 0 confirmations are needed :) hint: it's not (just) for btc
2679 2011-07-31 21:50:30 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2680 2011-07-31 21:50:38 <phantomcircuit> xelister, not safely...
2681 2011-07-31 21:50:47 <xelister> totally safely
2682 2011-07-31 21:51:00 <phantomcircuit> i mean you can do it where you verify peoples identity and then if they screw you you can go after them
2683 2011-07-31 21:51:03 <phantomcircuit> but that's dumb
2684 2011-07-31 21:51:10 <xelister> nope,
2685 2011-07-31 21:51:15 <xelister> more anonymous then bitcoin
2686 2011-07-31 21:51:19 <phantomcircuit> xelister, ill believe it when i see it
2687 2011-07-31 21:51:21 <xelister> you can not at all follow transactions
2688 2011-07-31 21:51:25 <xelister> amazing eh?  public beta will be published in 4 weeks
2689 2011-07-31 21:51:49 <xelister> 2011.09.01 for a round date
2690 2011-07-31 21:51:51 <phantomcircuit> that would be very cool
2691 2011-07-31 21:51:54 <cjdelisle> Are you talking about OpenTransactions?
2692 2011-07-31 21:52:03 <phantomcircuit> if it's OT then it's a joke
2693 2011-07-31 21:52:13 <xelister> cjdelisle: sounds probable ;)
2694 2011-07-31 21:52:20 <xelister> phantomcircuit: why so?
2695 2011-07-31 21:52:23 <BlueMatt> you can accept fine with <1 confirm, as long as you know what you are doing, insure yourself, and do some extra work
2696 2011-07-31 21:52:30 <BlueMatt> (some minor client mods)
2697 2011-07-31 21:52:43 <phantomcircuit> xelister, ot is 100% reliant on the issuer not inflating and 100% reliant on the token servers not inflating
2698 2011-07-31 21:52:57 <phantomcircuit> you're trusting more people than the classic banking system1
2699 2011-07-31 21:52:59 <phantomcircuit> you're trusting more people than the classic banking system1!!!
2700 2011-07-31 21:53:13 <xelister> BlueMatt: how can your client modifications protect you from double spending actually
2701 2011-07-31 21:53:27 <BlueMatt> xelister: the point is you actively look for double spends
2702 2011-07-31 21:53:39 <BlueMatt> double spend would mean send one to your "victim" and one to miners/etc
2703 2011-07-31 21:53:50 <BlueMatt> so you need to get a good peer with major miners
2704 2011-07-31 21:53:53 <phantomcircuit> xelister, with enough desperate nodes you can sample the networks memory pool and get a good idea of whether a transaction will be included in the next block with a fairly high certainty
2705 2011-07-31 21:53:57 <BlueMatt> (and trust miners wont fuck you)
2706 2011-07-31 21:53:58 <cjdelisle> Indeed the servers inflating is a real issue, the issuer... that's normal, you have to trust somebody, with btc you trust the chain.
2707 2011-07-31 21:54:03 <xelister> phantomcircuit: interesting point,
2708 2011-07-31 21:54:10 <BlueMatt> and then mod the client to notify on double spends instead of blocking
2709 2011-07-31 21:54:22 <xelister> phantomcircuit: but you are free to easly choose valid people to trust
2710 2011-07-31 21:54:25 <phantomcircuit> no more free advice ;)
2711 2011-07-31 21:54:31 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2712 2011-07-31 21:54:32 <phantomcircuit> lulz
2713 2011-07-31 21:54:47 TheZimm has joined
2714 2011-07-31 21:54:49 <xelister> with mtgox
2715 2011-07-31 21:54:50 <xelister> or bitomat
2716 2011-07-31 21:54:55 <xelister> you transfer funds into bitomat
2717 2011-07-31 21:54:58 <xelister> and you have NOTHING
2718 2011-07-31 21:55:08 <cjdelisle> oh btw, does britcoin have a websocket or telnet feed?
2719 2011-07-31 21:55:09 <xelister> do you have openpgp signed reciept that bitomat taken your money?
2720 2011-07-31 21:55:12 <xelister> that you can show to police?
2721 2011-07-31 21:55:29 <xelister> they can claim you never got any btc with them and tell you to fuck yourself
2722 2011-07-31 21:55:39 <xelister> same problem with real banks
2723 2011-07-31 21:55:48 <xelister> and in pgp signed contracts
2724 2011-07-31 21:56:03 <xelister> as soon as you put it any money, you have pgp /evidence/ of that
2725 2011-07-31 21:56:12 <phantomcircuit> xelister, im 100% certain he isn't going to try and hide anything
2726 2011-07-31 21:56:34 <xelister> phantomcircuit: who?  the dude that didn't backed up his 250,000 usd file?
2727 2011-07-31 21:56:37 <phantomcircuit> yes
2728 2011-07-31 21:56:42 <xelister> he does seem trustworthy to me!      :-}
2729 2011-07-31 21:56:45 <xelister> you drunk bro?
2730 2011-07-31 21:56:45 <phantomcircuit> lol
2731 2011-07-31 21:56:51 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2732 2011-07-31 21:56:56 <phantomcircuit> he is trustworthy yet incompetent
2733 2011-07-31 21:57:02 <xelister> excelent!
2734 2011-07-31 21:57:05 <phantomcircuit> not mutually exclusive
2735 2011-07-31 21:57:06 <xelister> he should run for the office.
2736 2011-07-31 21:57:15 <phantomcircuit> he'd win
2737 2011-07-31 21:57:33 <xelister> why do you trust him blindly?
2738 2011-07-31 21:57:50 <cjdelisle> phantomcircuit: does britcoin have a telnet feed or a websocket? is one in the works?
2739 2011-07-31 21:57:59 <xelister> you meet him IRL? you have paper contract or even a reciept for the say 1000 btc that got bitomated at bitomat.pl ?
2740 2011-07-31 21:58:11 <phantomcircuit> yeah i have met him irl
2741 2011-07-31 21:58:31 <phantomcircuit> the site was in c#
2742 2011-07-31 21:58:37 <phantomcircuit> so that should say everything you need to know
2743 2011-07-31 21:58:48 <BlueMatt> lol
2744 2011-07-31 21:58:48 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, i'll to something but it 100% will not be websockets
2745 2011-07-31 21:59:12 <xelister> phantomcircuit: congratulations, so this is the example of the OpenTransactions-issuer you could trust.  :-D  Thanks for proving my previous point bro. Problem, discussion? :}    <phantomcircuit> xelister, ot is 100% reliant on the issuer not inflating
2746 2011-07-31 21:59:45 <xelister> that side was in C# and it should say everythin I need to know?   site in C#.... well YES, god yes. that would explain it all loooool.....
2747 2011-07-31 21:59:46 nhodges has joined
2748 2011-07-31 21:59:47 <phantomcircuit> xelister, OT provides nothing though
2749 2011-07-31 21:59:49 nhodges has quit (Excess Flood)
2750 2011-07-31 22:00:00 <cjdelisle> phantomcircuit: telnet? I am very interested since I run an irc bot which reads off trades and I am interested in getting data to the chan as fast as possible.
2751 2011-07-31 22:00:14 <xelister> phantomcircuit: nothing except undeniable crypto-strong evidence that transaction was done?  lol what more could you expect.
2752 2011-07-31 22:00:25 nhodges has joined
2753 2011-07-31 22:00:29 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, yeah probably
2754 2011-07-31 22:00:30 <xelister> phantomcircuit: notarian paper could be more, yea.
2755 2011-07-31 22:01:05 <phantomcircuit> xelister, honestly i think you'll get a giant meh from most people for OT
2756 2011-07-31 22:01:17 <phantomcircuit> almost all the stuff people have requested are about usability
2757 2011-07-31 22:01:32 <cjdelisle> awesome, I hope you implement something like {"ping": "some given string"}  returns {"pong":"same string"} because the biggers problem I have is silently losing the connection.
2758 2011-07-31 22:01:51 <xelister> phantomcircuit: most people give a gignt meh to bitcoin, people that do not understand or do not need the amazing things BTC offers
2759 2011-07-31 22:01:56 <xelister> phantomcircuit: what about usability?
2760 2011-07-31 22:02:06 <phantomcircuit> ask cjdelisle lol
2761 2011-07-31 22:02:25 <xelister> what that has to do with OT?
2762 2011-07-31 22:03:04 <phantomcircuit> oh im saying i dont think most people are actually super worried about the security of the sites
2763 2011-07-31 22:03:10 <phantomcircuit> which is confusing
2764 2011-07-31 22:03:20 <xelister> and?
2765 2011-07-31 22:03:30 <xelister> not sure what point are you trying to make here
2766 2011-07-31 22:03:39 <cjdelisle> huh? I just read the other day about OT, I want to hear everyone's words on it, good and bad.
2767 2011-07-31 22:05:34 <xelister> cjdelisle: about it's potential, it seems it can be more secure, faster, more anonymous on all levels, and more interesting financiall tool then BTC. Better in every way. Possible drawback is taht you need to trust some issuers - but then - people trusted say mtgox and got goxxed out of their account for week, or trsuted bitomat.pl and got goxxed out of all their money, etc. OT only makes such problems easier, by creating basket currencies e.g.
2768 2011-07-31 22:05:36 <xelister> you diverisy your currency to minimize dangers (of untrustworthy issuers, of exchange rates chages)
2769 2011-07-31 22:06:13 <xelister> *bitomated. people got bitomated out of all their money  (* lost it irreverssibly)
2770 2011-07-31 22:06:55 <cjdelisle> i don't see it going too far until it can do away with the need for servers.
2771 2011-07-31 22:07:19 <cjdelisle> Someone will inevitably ask "what happens when all of the servers get ddos'd or the goobermint shuts them down?"
2772 2011-07-31 22:08:00 <cjdelisle> Bitcoin is peer to peer but we know that some peers basicly carry the network.
2773 2011-07-31 22:08:22 <xelister> cjdelisle: you can have totally offline money as well
2774 2011-07-31 22:08:30 <cjdelisle> But it is still "peer to peer" and that makes people happy. It means that it *could* run even without super peers.
2775 2011-07-31 22:08:32 <xelister> that works far better then anything
2776 2011-07-31 22:08:46 <xelister> cjdelisle: it is better, you can even use it offline mostly it seems
2777 2011-07-31 22:09:04 <BlueMatt> <cjdelisle> Bitcoin is peer to peer but we know that some peers basicly carry the network. <--???????
2778 2011-07-31 22:09:20 <cjdelisle> oh I knew you were going to call me out on that
2779 2011-07-31 22:09:40 <xelister> b4epoche_: btw
2780 2011-07-31 22:09:52 <xelister> b4epoche_: <b4epoche_> is #btcfn an irc channel?  developed by xelister ?  amazing
2781 2011-07-31 22:10:09 <xelister> b4epoche_: yes... I got 400 btc for making an irc channel.  U JELY? :D :D :D :}
2782 2011-07-31 22:10:12 <cjdelisle> You think the bitcoind running at eligus.st or deepbit does the same amount for the network as the one running on some random dsl line?
2783 2011-07-31 22:10:30 <BlueMatt> actually yes, I know it does
2784 2011-07-31 22:10:49 <BlueMatt> (assuming its ports are forwarded)
2785 2011-07-31 22:11:10 * xelister (j/k...:P)
2786 2011-07-31 22:11:19 <b4epoche_> xelister:  and /that/ inspires confidence in you holding people's money?
2787 2011-07-31 22:11:27 <cjdelisle> ok then that explains why you are having network problems, bittorrent works because of the seedboxen.
2788 2011-07-31 22:11:41 <xelister> b4epoche_: yeap
2789 2011-07-31 22:11:50 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: different model
2790 2011-07-31 22:11:56 <xelister> b4epoche_: apparently. I made ~1000 btc. ujely?
2791 2011-07-31 22:12:16 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: bittorrent's goal is to distribute data as fast as possible, bitcoin's goal is to distribute blocks quickly as soon as they come out
2792 2011-07-31 22:12:52 <b4epoche_> jealous of what?  you ripping people off?
2793 2011-07-31 22:13:02 <phantomcircuit> xelister, saying that OT allows for 0 confirmation transactions is highly inaccurate though, since that's only true once the funds are already on the exchange platform, also fyi you should be careful about doing transfers of fiat currency between users on the exchange platform, mtgoxUSD is hilariously illegal
2794 2011-07-31 22:13:24 <xelister> phantomcircuit: mtgoxUSD is illegal??
2795 2011-07-31 22:13:30 klikklak has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2796 2011-07-31 22:13:40 <phantomcircuit> yes they are acting as an MSB but are certainly not registered as one
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2798 2011-07-31 22:13:44 <BlueMatt> xelister: in some interpretations of us law, yes it would be in the us
2799 2011-07-31 22:13:46 <phantomcircuit> it is *extremely* illegal
2800 2011-07-31 22:13:53 <cjdelisle> I doubt that everyone is truely equal, those boxen that have 300 connections are just doing a lot more than someone with 5
2801 2011-07-31 22:13:56 <BlueMatt> but they arent in the us...
2802 2011-07-31 22:13:57 <BlueMatt> so...
2803 2011-07-31 22:14:11 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, their bank account is registered under a us corporation
2804 2011-07-31 22:14:18 <phantomcircuit> so they could potentially be extradited
2805 2011-07-31 22:14:23 <xelister> phantomcircuit: bitcoin is not money they could as well trade say pictures or small statues
2806 2011-07-31 22:14:23 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: ah, didnt know that...
2807 2011-07-31 22:14:33 <xelister> I think...
2808 2011-07-31 22:14:39 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yes but they're allowing trade in USD between users
2809 2011-07-31 22:14:41 <xelister> phantomcircuit: which bank
2810 2011-07-31 22:14:54 <phantomcircuit> xelister, the one linked with dwolla
2811 2011-07-31 22:14:55 <xelister> phantomcircuit: oh. hm dunno
2812 2011-07-31 22:15:24 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: if you have <=8, then yes, of course you arent doing anything for the network, your ports arent forwarded, if you have >8, then you are doing as much as anyone as no one who accepts connections doesnt hit their connection limit very fast
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2814 2011-07-31 22:16:18 <phantomcircuit> xelister, if it was just BTC transfers then im pretty certain it is unregulated, but that's not what they where doing
2815 2011-07-31 22:16:36 <xelister> phantomcircuit: OT is rather far from fiat currency
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2817 2011-07-31 22:16:47 <upb> i wonder how this multicurrency exchange of gox will work legally
2818 2011-07-31 22:16:59 <upb> because if you have USD and are buying BTC from a user that gets EUR
2819 2011-07-31 22:17:08 <upb> then mtgox exchanges USD for EUR doesnt it
2820 2011-07-31 22:17:09 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: under some readings of us law...well its not illegal, under others, they are going to jail for life tomorrow
2821 2011-07-31 22:17:10 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yes but if it's issued with fiat backing then it's an emoney service which is also highly regulated, just make sure all trades are backed by btc only
2822 2011-07-31 22:17:26 <xelister> phantomcircuit: about 0 confirmations well it all depends but once you have your own currency, you do not need to wait for confirmations
2823 2011-07-31 22:17:35 <xelister> phantomcircuit: and imo 10 seconds -vs- 30 minutes
2824 2011-07-31 22:17:42 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yes but only once you're in the system ;)
2825 2011-07-31 22:17:44 <xelister> allow to use e-currency for IRL
2826 2011-07-31 22:18:20 <xelister> phantomcircuit: right but being in the system can be as natural step as "acquiring bitcoins", so something you can do once, and later do many fast trades
2827 2011-07-31 22:19:00 <xelister> other such ideas that exist now are centralized and not universally secure
2828 2011-07-31 22:19:44 <phantomcircuit> yes i've been saying for a long time now that someone runnign a centralized system will ultimately be the way in which instant transactions occur
2829 2011-07-31 22:20:09 <xelister> and with OT you have instant transactions withOUT need for centralized
2830 2011-07-31 22:20:11 <phantomcircuit> OT is centralized but only at the points where it is 100% necessary to be
2831 2011-07-31 22:20:21 <xelister> which point?
2832 2011-07-31 22:20:55 <phantomcircuit> issuance
2833 2011-07-31 22:21:02 <xelister> many issuers, many OT servers, many exchanges....
2834 2011-07-31 22:21:07 <xelister> issuance?
2835 2011-07-31 22:21:26 <phantomcircuit> yes you can have many issuers
2836 2011-07-31 22:21:29 <xelister> you mean minting new currency tokens/coins?
2837 2011-07-31 22:21:34 <phantomcircuit> but each issuers token is separate
2838 2011-07-31 22:21:48 <phantomcircuit> and within their separate issuance is 100% centralized
2839 2011-07-31 22:22:00 <xelister> which should not be any concern to you
2840 2011-07-31 22:22:05 <xelister> if you use basket currency
2841 2011-07-31 22:22:46 <xelister> well any/not big.. but not much bigger then normal risks or exchange rate changes
2842 2011-07-31 22:23:55 <xelister> if you would have 50 issuers, and make basket currency out of all of them (this is possible, right?)  then even if in same day 2 of them are goxxed, you loose just up to 4% of value... you can easly loose more anyway due to exchange rate changes
2843 2011-07-31 22:24:02 <cjdelisle> OT seems brilliant for handling stocks, a stock has to have an issuer
2844 2011-07-31 22:24:53 <xelister> that too
2845 2011-07-31 22:25:57 <xelister> how I see it..
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2848 2011-07-31 22:26:08 <xelister> with mtgox, bitomat.. you can pomp money to them and get NOTHING
2849 2011-07-31 22:26:13 <xelister> while in OT you have strong evidence
2850 2011-07-31 22:26:17 <cjdelisle> Do you know where fellowtraveler is? I would like to grill him on OT. I really want to know if the server can be eliminated.
2851 2011-07-31 22:26:20 <phantomcircuit> xelister, the basket currency would just be yet another issuer lol
2852 2011-07-31 22:26:20 <xelister> which is basic for serious use
2853 2011-07-31 22:26:32 <xelister> cjdelisle: he is on vacation in vegas
2854 2011-07-31 22:26:57 <xelister> phantomcircuit: hm? no you create yourslef this basket currencies.. no issuer here afaik
2855 2011-07-31 22:26:57 <cjdelisle> lucky him ;)
2856 2011-07-31 22:27:08 <phantomcircuit> xelister, ah an informal basket
2857 2011-07-31 22:27:15 <phantomcircuit> like having a bunch of EUR USD GBP in your pocket
2858 2011-07-31 22:27:18 <xelister> phantomcircuit: this would make more sense, yea
2859 2011-07-31 22:27:19 <phantomcircuit> <-- has
2860 2011-07-31 22:27:26 <phantomcircuit> actually
2861 2011-07-31 22:27:26 <xelister> yea
2862 2011-07-31 22:27:29 <phantomcircuit> also have PLN
2863 2011-07-31 22:27:33 <phantomcircuit> seriously annoying
2864 2011-07-31 22:27:41 <xelister> why
2865 2011-07-31 22:28:08 <phantomcircuit> because i need to have some of each depending on where i am
2866 2011-07-31 22:28:15 <phantomcircuit> but i cant use all of it everywhere
2867 2011-07-31 22:28:28 <phantomcircuit> although i guess it's much better with EUR now
2868 2011-07-31 22:28:42 <Nicksasa> so i just startup bitcoind on my server and see this
2869 2011-07-31 22:28:43 <Nicksasa> Loaded 365940 addresses
2870 2011-07-31 22:28:43 <Nicksasa>  addresses            136094ms
2871 2011-07-31 22:28:48 <Nicksasa> that's not normal, right ?
2872 2011-07-31 22:29:03 <phantomcircuit> it is 100% normal
2873 2011-07-31 22:29:05 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately
2874 2011-07-31 22:29:42 <Nicksasa> well something's wrong and it's not disk speed, it's loading terribly slow
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2876 2011-07-31 22:30:03 <phantomcircuit> yes that's 100% normal
2877 2011-07-31 22:30:10 <Nicksasa> "Loading block index...
2878 2011-07-31 22:30:10 <Nicksasa> " for almost 5 min npw
2879 2011-07-31 22:30:13 <jrmithdobbs> that's a lot of addresses
2880 2011-07-31 22:30:55 <Nicksasa> i only did getnewaddress like 40 times in total ... and even then it was +1 month ago
2881 2011-07-31 22:34:52 <phantomcircuit> ok that seems like too long
2882 2011-07-31 22:34:57 <Nicksasa> oh well, removed addr.dat
2883 2011-07-31 22:35:01 <Nicksasa> everything is fine again
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2936 2011-07-31 23:58:24 <nhodges> i wish my computer were as good as my step children, when i beat it, it doesn't listen
2937 2011-07-31 23:58:25 <nhodges> just kidding
2938 2011-07-31 23:58:27 <nhodges> i don't have a computer.
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2940 2011-07-31 23:58:30 <nhodges> lololollol
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