1 2011-08-02 00:00:04 <nanotube> doesn't matter if it's sqli or xss or unescaped user input
   2 2011-08-02 00:00:34 <jrmithdobbs> nanotube: no, he claimed zero security vulns. that is the standard i'm holding him to.
   3 2011-08-02 00:00:57 <nanotube> jrmithdobbs: well, if a 'security vuln' lets you do exactly nothing... it's not a vuln.
   4 2011-08-02 00:01:21 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: I mean of course actually doing something
   5 2011-08-02 00:01:29 <xelister> best define list of things that must NOT be allowed to happen
   6 2011-08-02 00:01:41 <nanotube> i.e., if you say, edit the site's js and make it say 'foo', that's not a vulnerability.
   7 2011-08-02 00:01:50 <xelister> - know user count / user loging names, passwords, times, amounts of money they have
   8 2011-08-02 00:01:59 <nanotube> (i mean, a local copy thereof)
   9 2011-08-02 00:02:09 <xelister> - take users BTC/usd without users giving you their credentialls
  10 2011-08-02 00:02:17 <zeiris> Identifying whether jrmithdobbs has an account on a competitor exchange is a vulnerability. Using block exploreration and knowledge about who owns which account, you could use it to track the flow of BTC and identify people/transactions.
  11 2011-08-02 00:02:27 <xelister> - not allowing to take users credentialls unintentionally because of portal fault
  12 2011-08-02 00:02:47 <zeiris> You could potentially identify major players on the exchange, then try to take them out at an opportune time to take advantage of the market.
  13 2011-08-02 00:02:50 <jrmithdobbs> i don't have an account on any exchange atm because i trolled tux into deleting it off gox ;p
  14 2011-08-02 00:02:53 <jrmithdobbs> (true story)
  15 2011-08-02 00:02:57 <xelister> - not loosing possilbility to use any BTC received by portal untill they are to be withdrawed
  16 2011-08-02 00:03:04 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: hm?
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  26 2011-08-02 00:13:21 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: http://pastebin.com/rKq30wyH
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  29 2011-08-02 00:14:35 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: neat
  30 2011-08-02 00:15:01 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr rollntime_expire * ra7ea33d02a65 poclbm-personal/HttpTransport.py: Default rollntime expire to 60 seconds http://tinyurl.com/4xusyeo
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  36 2011-08-02 00:19:09 <zeiris> That's a nice list, jrmithdobbs. Asides from the forex/PCI certification, I bet I could write the code for that in that timeframe. (If I quit my day job.)
  37 2011-08-02 00:19:35 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: uhhm speed gonzales
  38 2011-08-02 00:19:38 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: one thing
  39 2011-08-02 00:19:50 <xelister> it will probably be (at first) located in PL and operating in PLN
  40 2011-08-02 00:20:16 <xelister> "operating under X economical laws" is actually not a software security problem too...
  41 2011-08-02 00:21:03 <xelister> Conform to FOREX standards.  ...    Be PCI-certifiable.   <-- hm?  how is that nesesery for "secure exchange"
  42 2011-08-02 00:21:06 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: it is a financial security issue as if you are not compliant all of your clients' financials are vulnerable
  43 2011-08-02 00:21:19 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: well that task noone can tak
  44 2011-08-02 00:21:20 <xelister> take
  45 2011-08-02 00:21:26 <xelister> as noone can guarantee you for the law
  46 2011-08-02 00:21:36 <jrmithdobbs> so you're backing down from your claims.
  47 2011-08-02 00:21:40 <xelister> law is not a strict science like say mathematics
  48 2011-08-02 00:21:45 <jrmithdobbs> so you're backing down from your claims.
  49 2011-08-02 00:22:11 <xelister> no, you are now trying to add lawyer stuff into a software platform, this makes no sense
  50 2011-08-02 00:22:32 copumpkin has joined
  51 2011-08-02 00:22:32 <xelister> no one consideres "not being o.k. with law X" a software system security vulnerability
  52 2011-08-02 00:23:04 <jrmithdobbs> they do for financials software.
  53 2011-08-02 00:23:15 <jrmithdobbs> not as trivial an endeavour as you thought, huh?
  54 2011-08-02 00:23:28 <jrmithdobbs> and pln == play money
  55 2011-08-02 00:23:39 <jrmithdobbs> if the exchange doesn't operate with real money it's worthless
  56 2011-08-02 00:23:50 <xelister> pln is play money?
  57 2011-08-02 00:24:01 <jrmithdobbs> as far as the rest of the world is concerned? yes
  58 2011-08-02 00:24:09 <xelister> funny because you can buy houses, sky scrapers, trains, tanks, ships, shipyards with it
  59 2011-08-02 00:24:23 <jrmithdobbs> you can buy all that with zimbabwe dollars too
  60 2011-08-02 00:24:30 <jrmithdobbs> (absurd ammounts of them, but still)
  61 2011-08-02 00:24:30 <JFK911> jrmithdobbs must use a stable currency like yuan
  62 2011-08-02 00:24:42 <xelister> nanotube: what do you think
  63 2011-08-02 00:25:25 <jrmithdobbs> i might be willing to compromise on gbp/eur and uk/eu law instead
  64 2011-08-02 00:26:12 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: the plan is to make exchange that will not loose peoples money (in any fiat or BTC) and will not leak sensitive data, unless some extraordinary things happen like bombing from orbid of all backups locations, police or bandits kidnapping all admins
  65 2011-08-02 00:26:30 <xelister> best would be to define it as effect
  66 2011-08-02 00:26:46 <xelister> like effect: john took bob's money (against the rules of portal)
  67 2011-08-02 00:26:55 <jrmithdobbs> those definitions line up with your claims, i don't understand why you're trying to back out
  68 2011-08-02 00:26:57 <xelister> or john found out bob's email address or his account ballance
  69 2011-08-02 00:27:28 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: because your definition is too wide imo. also less easy. with effects it is easy
  70 2011-08-02 00:27:37 <copumpkin> wow, this is still going on
  71 2011-08-02 00:27:37 <xelister> bob took john's money - loose
  72 2011-08-02 00:27:40 <xelister> simple
  73 2011-08-02 00:27:47 * copumpkin had time to walk home
  74 2011-08-02 00:28:01 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: I will think about this. See you later \o
  75 2011-08-02 00:28:08 <zeiris> You should write it in PHP and use MySQL to store people's accounts.
  76 2011-08-02 00:28:21 <copumpkin> zeiris: magic quotes to save effort
  77 2011-08-02 00:28:29 <phantomcircuit> GREAT PLAN
  78 2011-08-02 00:28:31 <phantomcircuit> actually PHP can be done correctly
  79 2011-08-02 00:28:35 <xelister> php can do anything
  80 2011-08-02 00:28:39 <xelister> >_>
  81 2011-08-02 00:28:40 <copumpkin> assembly can be written correctly too
  82 2011-08-02 00:28:45 <phantomcircuit> xelister, lies
  83 2011-08-02 00:28:50 <copumpkin> it's just waste of cognitive resources
  84 2011-08-02 00:28:55 <zeiris> Heh.
  85 2011-08-02 00:28:58 <copumpkin> that could be used more fruitfully elsewhere
  86 2011-08-02 00:29:13 <zeiris> More importantly, it's a waste of cognitive resources which are in limited supply to begin with.
  87 2011-08-02 00:29:14 <BlueMatt> php is technically turing-complete, so technically it can do anything...that said I wouldnt want to use it to do anything of use...
  88 2011-08-02 00:29:36 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: then i'll take this as you backing down from your claims
  89 2011-08-02 00:29:36 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  90 2011-08-02 00:29:39 <copumpkin> it's pretty hard to not be turing complete if you're writing something resembling a programming language
  91 2011-08-02 00:29:46 <BlueMatt> </technicality nazi>
  92 2011-08-02 00:29:47 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: that is what a "secure" exchange looks like to me, and I'm sure others
  93 2011-08-02 00:29:48 <copumpkin> it's not very interesting that I can write everything in brainfuck
  94 2011-08-02 00:29:54 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: did you see the above pastebin?
  95 2011-08-02 00:30:10 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: xelister no longer to back his claims once fully defined: http://pastebin.com/rKq30wyH
  96 2011-08-02 00:30:13 <copumpkin> agda, for example, goes way out of its way to _not_ be strictly turing complete
  97 2011-08-02 00:30:21 <copumpkin> same with coq
  98 2011-08-02 00:30:32 <xelister> well
  99 2011-08-02 00:30:33 <xelister> what the fuck
 100 2011-08-02 00:30:38 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: meh, he can back it or not, I dont care
 101 2011-08-02 00:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> just sayin
 102 2011-08-02 00:31:02 <xelister> "being FOREX and ICP something certificable"
 103 2011-08-02 00:31:03 <jrmithdobbs> people's tune changes once actually money and definitions are put in place ;p
 104 2011-08-02 00:31:05 <xelister> is not really
 105 2011-08-02 00:31:05 soap has quit (Disconnected by services)
 106 2011-08-02 00:31:10 <xelister> "being a secure exchange portal"
 107 2011-08-02 00:31:15 Cusipzzz has joined
 108 2011-08-02 00:31:16 <jrmithdobbs> s/actually/actual/
 109 2011-08-02 00:31:23 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: they go hand and hand
 110 2011-08-02 00:31:32 sanity_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 111 2011-08-02 00:31:33 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: don't get into money processing if you can't handle that
 112 2011-08-02 00:31:34 <zeiris> ICP something
 113 2011-08-02 00:31:36 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: no, bitch - look - the portal will do what normal people accept as "secure exchange",
 114 2011-08-02 00:31:37 <xelister> which is
 115 2011-08-02 00:31:41 <xelister> not loose peoples money
 116 2011-08-02 00:31:43 <xelister> not loose peoples BTC
 117 2011-08-02 00:31:46 soap_ has joined
 118 2011-08-02 00:31:47 <xelister> not disclose peoples emails
 119 2011-08-02 00:31:51 <zeiris> Uhuh.
 120 2011-08-02 00:31:51 <xelister> nor other peoples details
 121 2011-08-02 00:31:54 <xelister> simple
 122 2011-08-02 00:32:01 <copumpkin> yeah, real simple
 123 2011-08-02 00:32:02 <xelister> thing that both bitomat.pl and mtgox failed to do
 124 2011-08-02 00:32:09 <zeiris> It's gonna conform to people's expectations. And then they'll start using it. And it'll become popular.
 125 2011-08-02 00:32:18 <copumpkin> also simple, keep the jailbreakers out of iOS
 126 2011-08-02 00:32:21 <xelister> ok - also - NO tROLLbacks, happy ?
 127 2011-08-02 00:32:22 <copumpkin> apple has a whole security team on it
 128 2011-08-02 00:32:25 <zeiris> And then suddenly it becomes popular enough to be worth exploiting and the people who's expectations it fulfilled get cornholed.
 129 2011-08-02 00:32:28 <copumpkin> see how well that worked out
 130 2011-08-02 00:32:48 <zeiris> Security != conforming to the user's expectations.
 131 2011-08-02 00:32:48 <xelister> also being reasonably resistant to DDoS
 132 2011-08-02 00:33:01 <xelister> and being able to keep reasonable uptime
 133 2011-08-02 00:33:03 <copumpkin> xelister: and a pony?
 134 2011-08-02 00:33:05 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: that list is how i would define a secure exchange platform
 135 2011-08-02 00:33:21 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: if you seriously disagree with any of it other than the USD portion, please do not attempt to run an exchange
 136 2011-08-02 00:33:24 <jrmithdobbs> i beg you
 137 2011-08-02 00:33:26 <xelister> copumpkin: yea dunno, this is how much I think secure exchange should do, and jrmithdobbs says this all is still too little
 138 2011-08-02 00:33:33 <jrmithdobbs> it is.
 139 2011-08-02 00:33:49 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: no platform even comed close to this
 140 2011-08-02 00:33:52 nhodges has joined
 141 2011-08-02 00:33:55 <zeiris> Heh.
 142 2011-08-02 00:33:59 <xelister> wtf is icpsomething and why should users care
 143 2011-08-02 00:34:05 <jrmithdobbs> PCI
 144 2011-08-02 00:34:13 <xelister> unless it is stupid term for something actually important?
 145 2011-08-02 00:34:30 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=pci+compliance
 146 2011-08-02 00:34:32 <jrmithdobbs> yes
 147 2011-08-02 00:34:36 <zeiris> Banks won't let you process CC payments without it.
 148 2011-08-02 00:34:43 <zeiris> So at least someone thinks it's important.
 149 2011-08-02 00:34:48 <jrmithdobbs> and the fact that you don't know what it means means you are not qualified to run any type of web service involving financials
 150 2011-08-02 00:35:11 <zeiris> Which is a fundamental problem with bitcoin services, as the multiple welps nicely showcase :3
 151 2011-08-02 00:35:26 <jrmithdobbs> also
 152 2011-08-02 00:35:30 <zeiris> It's funny how moving the trust from the banks, ends up moving it to people who can be trusted even less.
 153 2011-08-02 00:35:33 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: you dont think Im already the fuck browsing that? now link some deffinition, wikipdia doesnt seem to define this
 154 2011-08-02 00:35:42 <MagicalTux> xelister: one sec
 155 2011-08-02 00:36:03 <MagicalTux> http://youtu.be/OceYWri86Ts <- here's a definition of PCI
 156 2011-08-02 00:36:20 <xelister> youtube?
 157 2011-08-02 00:36:23 <MagicalTux> :D
 158 2011-08-02 00:36:37 <jrmithdobbs> also, PCI certification is simple as shit
 159 2011-08-02 00:36:50 <MagicalTux> basically PCI DSS is a minimum security standard defined by the PCI (payment card industry I think) for every merchant to follow
 160 2011-08-02 00:37:04 <jrmithdobbs> my fuckin home network would pass pci compliance tests
 161 2011-08-02 00:37:11 <xelister> is it written somewhere in fucking text file or wiki article?
 162 2011-08-02 00:37:14 <MagicalTux> if you process less than 6 million euro per year in credit cards, you can just fill the SAQ and get a QSA to scan you
 163 2011-08-02 00:37:22 <MagicalTux> xelister: a 400 pages pdf file
 164 2011-08-02 00:37:26 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: should be one of the first hits on google for the link i gave you
 165 2011-08-02 00:37:32 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: it's only like 200 ;p
 166 2011-08-02 00:37:40 <copumpkin> peanuts
 167 2011-08-02 00:37:59 <jrmithdobbs> that youtube is much more entertaining than the doc though
 168 2011-08-02 00:38:00 <jrmithdobbs> i must say
 169 2011-08-02 00:38:07 <xelister> oh here we go
 170 2011-08-02 00:38:10 <MagicalTux> jrmithdobbs: boring repetitive stuff feels double (and yeah, I kind of like that youtube video)
 171 2011-08-02 00:38:13 <xelister> so jrmithdobbs was basically using
 172 2011-08-02 00:38:14 <xelister> smartass
 173 2011-08-02 00:38:33 <xelister> way os saying it should use obvious shit like updating full system encryption etc
 174 2011-08-02 00:38:36 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 175 2011-08-02 00:38:36 <xelister> also... point #6
 176 2011-08-02 00:38:40 <xelister> "use antivirus"
 177 2011-08-02 00:38:42 <xelister> lol woooot?
 178 2011-08-02 00:38:51 <xelister> that video is a joke I hope.
 179 2011-08-02 00:39:07 <jrmithdobbs> no it's pretty accurate
 180 2011-08-02 00:39:09 <xelister> lol "unique id".
 181 2011-08-02 00:39:14 <jrmithdobbs> presented in a humorous way
 182 2011-08-02 00:39:23 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: you know what
 183 2011-08-02 00:39:24 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 184 2011-08-02 00:39:28 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, well since you're not processing any credit cards afaikt the fuck does Processing Card Industry Data security Standards have to do with you?
 185 2011-08-02 00:39:38 <xelister> I'm apparently PCI compatible since like 4+ years
 186 2011-08-02 00:39:43 <xelister> it's just fucking common sense.
 187 2011-08-02 00:40:03 <xelister> minus some of the extra logging and notificaitons perhaps
 188 2011-08-02 00:40:13 <jrmithdobbs> and regular security audits
 189 2011-08-02 00:40:15 <jrmithdobbs> i'm sure
 190 2011-08-02 00:40:50 <jrmithdobbs> fun fact: zero credit card processors are actually pci compliant
 191 2011-08-02 00:40:52 <xelister> how good audits, cronjob running few checks and checking if backups work are rather intuitionall
 192 2011-08-02 00:41:39 <jrmithdobbs> (citi just very publically proved that at least all of them aren't)
 193 2011-08-02 00:41:40 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: replace PCIwhatever with simple text rules and then it can make sense
 194 2011-08-02 00:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> (as did sony)
 195 2011-08-02 00:41:47 <xelister> same about FORex
 196 2011-08-02 00:41:52 <xelister> I assume it means
 197 2011-08-02 00:42:04 <xelister> no tROLoLoloLbacks
 198 2011-08-02 00:42:05 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: we are on other services, and I've been working previously in a big ecommerce company
 199 2011-08-02 00:42:14 <xelister> and executing orders in well defined sorting order?
 200 2011-08-02 00:42:17 <phantomcircuit> uh
 201 2011-08-02 00:42:19 <phantomcircuit> yes
 202 2011-08-02 00:42:21 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: you can do your own research
 203 2011-08-02 00:42:21 <phantomcircuit> like i said
 204 2011-08-02 00:42:31 <phantomcircuit> the fuck does PCI DSS have to do with a bitcoin exchange?
 205 2011-08-02 00:42:41 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: nothing, it's pure bullshit on a bitcoin exchange
 206 2011-08-02 00:42:47 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: the general security principles is what i'm after
 207 2011-08-02 00:42:48 <phantomcircuit> ok then
 208 2011-08-02 00:42:55 <xelister> phantomcircuit: ask jrmithdobbs he is thniking "secure btc exchange" means "more secure exchange on plant" =)
 209 2011-08-02 00:43:00 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: obviously the cc storage stuff doesn't apply
 210 2011-08-02 00:43:01 <xelister> *most
 211 2011-08-02 00:43:24 <MagicalTux> however it's a good thing to know and to follow in all cases as it defines some good practices
 212 2011-08-02 00:43:25 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: our portal will implement probably most rules that make sense
 213 2011-08-02 00:43:26 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: the rest of it is basic security princples 101
 214 2011-08-02 00:43:36 <phantomcircuit> xelister, a secure bitcoin exchange is *not* challenging
 215 2011-08-02 00:43:39 <xelister> and that lead to DEFINED GOALS or not letting money or secrets be stolen or lost
 216 2011-08-02 00:43:40 <phantomcircuit> seriously
 217 2011-08-02 00:43:58 <phantomcircuit> but if you'll excuse me i have to watch breaking bad
 218 2011-08-02 00:43:59 <xelister> phantomcircuit: mtgox goxxed all accounts for 10+ days
 219 2011-08-02 00:44:08 <xelister> phantomcircuit: bitomat.pl bitomated 17000 BTC into /dev/null
 220 2011-08-02 00:44:10 <xelister> everyone fails
 221 2011-08-02 00:44:13 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yes i stand by my previous statement
 222 2011-08-02 00:44:35 <MagicalTux> xelister: got any adjective for mybitcoin ?
 223 2011-08-02 00:44:51 <xelister> basically they bitomated all their funds
 224 2011-08-02 00:44:53 <phantomcircuit> cant adjective that
 225 2011-08-02 00:44:53 <xelister> it would seem
 226 2011-08-02 00:45:08 <zeiris> xelister: you will also fail :)
 227 2011-08-02 00:45:27 temporalcause has joined
 228 2011-08-02 00:45:32 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: where's some samples of your previous work?
 229 2011-08-02 00:45:49 <xelister> zeiris: not letting any money nor secrets be leaked, miss-placed, stolen or lost  ... I think it will not fail. Another 100 btc bounty pehraps then
 230 2011-08-02 00:46:19 <temporalcause> for what?
 231 2011-08-02 00:46:24 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: totally hidden webpage with all worlds secret in it
 232 2011-08-02 00:46:24 <MagicalTux> xelister: I'd put a bounty too, but it could be misunderstood
 233 2011-08-02 00:46:25 <zeiris> You didn't like jrmithdobbs's definition of "secure BTC exchange" despite it looking reasonable.
 234 2011-08-02 00:47:37 <jrmithdobbs> oh man
 235 2011-08-02 00:47:38 <jrmithdobbs> xelister	I rather code own access module in C then touch mod_rewrite
 236 2011-08-02 00:47:44 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.bitchx.com/log/httpd-f/httpd-f-27-Jun-2010/httpd-f-27-Jun-2010-02.php
 237 2011-08-02 00:47:48 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 238 2011-08-02 00:47:50 <xelister> zeiris: PCI compilance apparently is some 200+ /pages/ definition shit. Im not reading that.  Obvious good practice like backups offsite, encrypted full system etc, this can be done on top on meeting above goals
 239 2011-08-02 00:47:51 <jrmithdobbs> that is a hilarious conversation
 240 2011-08-02 00:48:23 <xelister> yea mod_rewrite is a devilspawn
 241 2011-08-02 00:49:01 <xelister> it sounds like if you would like to bet more then, perhaps 100, jrmithdobbs?
 242 2011-08-02 00:49:21 <jrmithdobbs> don't have 100
 243 2011-08-02 00:49:24 <xelister> so far it seems USD->PLN and "PCI compilance" -> "list of well defined points", at least
 244 2011-08-02 00:49:40 <jrmithdobbs> to bet anyways
 245 2011-08-02 00:49:57 <MagicalTux> jrmithdobbs: you should bet 1:100, so if you bet 100, xelister bets 10000
 246 2011-08-02 00:50:01 <xelister> still I think just results matter the most
 247 2011-08-02 00:50:09 <xelister> MagicalTux: you drunk bro? :)
 248 2011-08-02 00:50:13 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: haha right
 249 2011-08-02 00:50:21 <MagicalTux> xelister: you're the one making claims your system is secure
 250 2011-08-02 00:50:39 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: i think a 1:2 ratio is actually fair tbqh, you don't deliver you pay me 100, you do, I'll give you 50
 251 2011-08-02 00:50:52 <xelister> MagicalTux: it is not triviall task imo
 252 2011-08-02 00:50:55 <xelister> as you of all people know
 253 2011-08-02 00:51:00 <MagicalTux> xelister: it's far from being trivial
 254 2011-08-02 00:51:08 <jrmithdobbs> i'd be estatic if you do and consider the 50BTC an investment in the longevity of btc
 255 2011-08-02 00:51:10 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 256 2011-08-02 00:51:22 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: oh so NOW it's not trivial?
 257 2011-08-02 00:51:26 <jrmithdobbs> odd that was your original claim.
 258 2011-08-02 00:51:34 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: nigger please I do have much more already in bounties =)  but still your bet is interesting
 259 2011-08-02 00:51:39 <xelister> hm?
 260 2011-08-02 00:51:55 <xelister> right
 261 2011-08-02 00:51:58 AStove has quit ()
 262 2011-08-02 00:52:44 <xelister> with your definition even CHECKING all the requirmenets involves reading 200+ page PDF it seems... so less trivial a bit.
 263 2011-08-02 00:53:14 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: which points of forex compilance shit you think are actually important for bitcoin users?
 264 2011-08-02 00:53:18 <jrmithdobbs> not my fault you're not familiar with the subject matter you're making claims on
 265 2011-08-02 00:53:44 <xelister> no troLOLOLOlbacks,  well defined sorting-executing enumeration of pending orders... something else?
 266 2011-08-02 00:53:46 <jrmithdobbs> xelister: the definitions of the orderbook operation
 267 2011-08-02 00:53:47 jimon has quit (Excess Flood)
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 269 2011-08-02 00:54:12 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: I look at the subject of "exchanging bitcoin" like a guy that wants to, you know, exchange bitcoins
 270 2011-08-02 00:54:16 <xelister> as a customer I just care that
 271 2011-08-02 00:54:28 <xelister> - my money is not lost and is timelly given to me in correct ammounts and ways
 272 2011-08-02 00:54:35 <xelister> - the same for BTCs
 273 2011-08-02 00:54:42 <xelister> - no private information is leaked
 274 2011-08-02 00:54:49 <xelister> so far mtgox failed on all points (but just partially)
 275 2011-08-02 00:54:59 <xelister> and biomat FULLY FAILED on 2 first points
 276 2011-08-02 00:55:03 <jrmithdobbs> i'm sorry your expectations are so low? I don't think what i outlined is an unreasonable expectation for your original claims.
 277 2011-08-02 00:55:17 <jrmithdobbs> MagicalTux: do you?
 278 2011-08-02 00:55:20 <xelister> low? this is what 90% users want
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 280 2011-08-02 00:55:26 <zeiris> How do you intend to ensure those three requirements are met, xelister?
 281 2011-08-02 00:55:39 <zeiris> Magic?
 282 2011-08-02 00:55:41 <xelister> ok, one more: executing the trades in fair manner (e.g. the placed trades WILL be executed, in well defined way)
 283 2011-08-02 00:55:42 <xelister> this too
 284 2011-08-02 00:55:44 <jrmithdobbs> users are stupid and don't know what they SHOULD be wanting
 285 2011-08-02 00:55:53 <zeiris> xelister:
 286 2011-08-02 00:55:54 <jrmithdobbs> that's security 101
 287 2011-08-02 00:56:01 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: sure
 288 2011-08-02 00:56:10 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: but we can just look at the outcome
 289 2011-08-02 00:56:13 <xelister> but at longer time scale
 290 2011-08-02 00:56:22 <jrmithdobbs> no
 291 2011-08-02 00:56:24 <jrmithdobbs> you said 60 days
 292 2011-08-02 00:56:30 <xelister> not that
 293 2011-08-02 00:56:32 <xelister> the checking timescale
 294 2011-08-02 00:56:38 <xelister> the checking time period
 295 2011-08-02 00:57:37 <xelister> things like say "portal must do regular security checks of X and Y and Z every W days" how they are even provable for winning/loosing the bet exactly?
 296 2011-08-02 00:58:02 <xelister> what we can check here is the outcome, e.g. was any damaged done in say 6 months of operation
 297 2011-08-02 00:59:14 <xelister> so we can wait for natural disaster to occur like with others
 298 2011-08-02 00:59:42 <xelister> and people can activly try to break in, find some exploit to say "steal" 1 btc and then it is proven portal was not perfect
 299 2011-08-02 01:00:05 <zeiris> I think the main problem is you underestimate the difficulty of writing secure software.
 300 2011-08-02 01:00:18 <zeiris> And thus are not a good choice to write anything involving large amounts of money passing through it.
 301 2011-08-02 01:00:33 TheZimm has joined
 302 2011-08-02 01:00:36 <xelister> or rather
 303 2011-08-02 01:00:44 <xelister> by secure exchange I mean a portal that will not fuck up
 304 2011-08-02 01:00:55 <xelister> loose money or BTC or secrets (or froze them) etc
 305 2011-08-02 01:00:59 <imsaguy> everyone and their brother trying to make a 'new' service/game/portal/etc to make a buck
 306 2011-08-02 01:01:13 <zeiris> "not fuck up" is a very steep requirement.
 307 2011-08-02 01:01:16 <xelister> and simply that.  but then, this is all what probably 99% users need
 308 2011-08-02 01:01:30 shLONG has joined
 309 2011-08-02 01:01:34 <zeiris> Letting me check if the user xiahxiahou has an account on your site through a timing attack in some obscure login API counts as a fuckup.
 310 2011-08-02 01:01:34 shLONG has quit (Client Quit)
 311 2011-08-02 01:01:50 <jrmithdobbs> those are my terms, take 'em or leave 'em. They're your claims. Not my fault you didn't understand the implications of your claims.
 312 2011-08-02 01:02:07 <xelister> zeiris: I said previously. Do not loose permanently or temporarly controll over USD ballances and BTC, do not leak privilage information or loose it.
 313 2011-08-02 01:02:12 <jrmithdobbs> i think a 6 month timeframe is appropriate for verification, though, yes
 314 2011-08-02 01:02:27 <jrmithdobbs> but, code must be frozen for the entire 6 months
 315 2011-08-02 01:02:30 <xelister> zeiris: yeap I agree. and this fackup is in the "leak privilage information" category
 316 2011-08-02 01:02:52 <zeiris> If English is your first language, please install a spellchecker plugin to your IRC client :(
 317 2011-08-02 01:02:55 <jrmithdobbs> (or until an issue is exposed)
 318 2011-08-02 01:02:58 zeiris is now known as amtal
 319 2011-08-02 01:03:26 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: Im not sure /that/ portal's code will be open source actually
 320 2011-08-02 01:03:33 <xelister> jrmithdobbs: I imagined you ment simply
 321 2011-08-02 01:03:41 <xelister> "will anyone be able to exploit the site in X months"
 322 2011-08-02 01:03:48 <BCBot>  Stats: http://bit.ly/bitcoin-irc-stats
 323 2011-08-02 01:04:13 <xelister> if noone looses anything or gets any secrets (using normal means, not bombing all from orbit or arresting all admins etc) then site is secure
 324 2011-08-02 01:04:39 <xelister> you could argue that really Secure mans even prone against kidnapping all admins ;) but well this is not something I bet on
 325 2011-08-02 01:04:47 <xelister> *even protected against
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 328 2011-08-02 01:06:04 <jrmithdobbs> i put forth the terms, up to you whether you will take the bet. If you want a 6 month time frame then I want the code to be frozen for those 6 months. No updates unless an issue is exposed.
 329 2011-08-02 01:06:21 <jrmithdobbs> if you really think you can pull it off in 60 days then you should be comfortable with such a code freeze.
 330 2011-08-02 01:07:04 <xelister> well interesting
 331 2011-08-02 01:07:12 <xelister> I will sleep over it :)
 332 2011-08-02 01:07:45 <xelister> as for normal "will not loose btc/money/secrets in X month == secure xchange" bet, that one I can take for sure
 333 2011-08-02 01:10:33 eoss has joined
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 341 2011-08-02 01:33:07 markio has joined
 342 2011-08-02 01:33:16 <markio> so who thinks mybitcoin will come back and everything will be okay?
 343 2011-08-02 01:34:02 <MaggyO> people with money invested with them?
 344 2011-08-02 01:34:26 <MagicalTux> markio, people who have a very large volume of hope
 345 2011-08-02 01:35:22 <markio> I was looking for individuals... who felt that way..
 346 2011-08-02 01:35:34 <markio> that could console me
 347 2011-08-02 01:35:48 <OneFixt> ;;eightball
 348 2011-08-02 01:35:49 <gribble> The outlook is hazy, please ask again later.
 349 2011-08-02 01:37:03 <markio> ...
 350 2011-08-02 01:38:21 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
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 352 2011-08-02 01:38:57 <MagicalTux> I wonder if mybitcoin got more or less coins stored than us
 353 2011-08-02 01:39:14 <imsaguy> heh
 354 2011-08-02 01:39:25 <imsaguy> supposedly the one dude had like 25k or something
 355 2011-08-02 01:39:36 <imsaguy> and thats just one user
 356 2011-08-02 01:39:40 <MagicalTux> considering we had more than 424242.42424242 coins on MtGox in end of june
 357 2011-08-02 01:41:04 <markio> I bet they had more
 358 2011-08-02 01:41:21 <imsaguy> hard to say
 359 2011-08-02 01:41:22 <MaggyO> MagicalTux: one thing im interested in is how does mtgox ensure they have enough USD to purchase BTC?
 360 2011-08-02 01:41:42 <imsaguy> tooth fairy
 361 2011-08-02 01:42:02 <MaggyO> is there enough speculators wiring USD/etc to balance the non USD BTC owners exiting?
 362 2011-08-02 01:42:32 Rabbit67890 has joined
 363 2011-08-02 01:43:50 <MagicalTux> MaggyO, they?
 364 2011-08-02 01:45:01 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r3c3f602a1541 /include/bitcoin/constants.hpp: constants header. http://tinyurl.com/3k6vy8x
 365 2011-08-02 01:45:02 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * rc6e494d54636 /tests/net.cpp: fixed nettest: boost::system::error_code -> std::error_code http://tinyurl.com/3z996tr
 366 2011-08-02 01:45:04 <CIA-103> libbitcoin: genjix * r846a4ad10b62 / (3 files in 3 dirs): postbind class for executing async functions outside your current thread. http://tinyurl.com/423z3bs
 367 2011-08-02 01:45:15 <MaggyO> they=mtgox
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 370 2011-08-02 01:45:38 <MagicalTux> mtgox doesn't purchase btc
 371 2011-08-02 01:45:42 <MaggyO> like if theres 10 speculators and they bought 10K worth of BTC, but miners want to exit 20K USD
 372 2011-08-02 01:45:44 <MaggyO> what happens?
 373 2011-08-02 01:45:51 <MagicalTux> we allow users to exchange
 374 2011-08-02 01:45:51 Raccoon has joined
 375 2011-08-02 01:46:15 <MagicalTux> MaggyO, in that case, price increases
 376 2011-08-02 01:46:22 <MagicalTux> or decrases
 377 2011-08-02 01:46:34 <MaggyO> well i have USD funds in mtgox atm
 378 2011-08-02 01:46:39 <MaggyO> and i havent put any into the system
 379 2011-08-02 01:46:45 markio has quit (Quit: what does gribble know)
 380 2011-08-02 01:46:54 <MagicalTux> MaggyO, means we haa
 381 2011-08-02 01:47:13 <MagicalTux> MaggyO, means we have funds with your name on it in one of our banks
 382 2011-08-02 01:47:26 <MaggyO> that originally came from someone putting in the USD?
 383 2011-08-02 01:47:32 <MagicalTux> yup
 384 2011-08-02 01:47:56 <MaggyO> ok yeah i forgot you dont really do your own buys do you
 385 2011-08-02 01:48:17 <MagicalTux> we don't trade
 386 2011-08-02 01:48:27 <MaggyO> you will eventually though? once you get big enougH?
 387 2011-08-02 01:48:31 <MagicalTux> nope
 388 2011-08-02 01:49:34 <MagicalTux> we know too much about the market to be able to trade in a fair way
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 392 2011-08-02 01:52:52 <MaggyO> if only the currency exchanges were like that :P
 393 2011-08-02 01:53:42 <MagicalTux> heh
 394 2011-08-02 01:54:04 <MaggyO> how many servers run mtgox atm?
 395 2011-08-02 01:55:46 <MaggyO> feels like theres only one running the www
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 404 2011-08-02 02:06:38 <accel> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2835188 <-- anyone have an indepth article of what happened here with mybitcoin.com ?
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 410 2011-08-02 02:19:16 <lfm> accel: afaik no one has been able to find out more than the fact they are down
 411 2011-08-02 02:19:45 <kish`> bitcoind freezes
 412 2011-08-02 02:19:59 <kish`> doesn't respond to ctrl-c or killall bitcoind
 413 2011-08-02 02:20:06 <kish`> i have to sig 9 it
 414 2011-08-02 02:20:35 <lfm> mswin or linux (or osx)? version?
 415 2011-08-02 02:20:41 <kish`> linux
 416 2011-08-02 02:21:06 <lfm> 0.3.24?
 417 2011-08-02 02:21:23 <lfm> or current git or?
 418 2011-08-02 02:21:25 <kish`> whatever yesterdays git clone
 419 2011-08-02 02:21:27 <kish`> was
 420 2011-08-02 02:21:43 <lfm> facinating
 421 2011-08-02 02:21:55 <jrmithdobbs> kish`: did you try bitcoind stop; and then waiting?
 422 2011-08-02 02:21:56 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 423 2011-08-02 02:21:58 <jrmithdobbs> it should exit eventually.
 424 2011-08-02 02:22:06 <jrmithdobbs> it can take a while
 425 2011-08-02 02:22:10 <kish`> why would it freeze
 426 2011-08-02 02:22:25 <jrmithdobbs> 'freeze' is meaningless
 427 2011-08-02 02:22:27 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 428 2011-08-02 02:22:32 <lfm> it can take a while to close all the databases
 429 2011-08-02 02:22:34 <jrmithdobbs> what is debug.log saying while it's doing that
 430 2011-08-02 02:23:55 <kish`> i dont know. let me check it
 431 2011-08-02 02:26:10 <kish`> no idea
 432 2011-08-02 02:26:19 <kish`> i see nothing incriminating in debug.log
 433 2011-08-02 02:26:53 <jrmithdobbs> what did it say right before it stopped updating?
 434 2011-08-02 02:27:01 <kish`> nothing
 435 2011-08-02 02:27:14 <jrmithdobbs> debug.log is completely empty?
 436 2011-08-02 02:27:25 <kish`> no, it's 2.6 MB
 437 2011-08-02 02:27:34 <jrmithdobbs> so what does it say at the end?
 438 2011-08-02 02:27:38 <kish`> here's what it said last: received block 0000000000000582e269
 439 2011-08-02 02:28:15 karnac has joined
 440 2011-08-02 02:28:50 <kish`> i'll give it another go at updating those blocks
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 454 2011-08-02 02:59:15 <upb> 02 04:44 < MagicalTux> we know too much about the market to be able to trade in a fair way
 455 2011-08-02 02:59:18 <upb> interesting clai
 456 2011-08-02 02:59:20 <upb> m
 457 2011-08-02 02:59:44 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 458 2011-08-02 03:01:20 Katapult has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 459 2011-08-02 03:01:39 <upb> 6177,BotBot,jed@mtgox.com,$1$Xqluv5Eq$nkN99S/5DRqbNqUii3oEF1
 460 2011-08-02 03:01:42 <upb> what is this then
 461 2011-08-02 03:01:48 <upb> a trading bot ?:P
 462 2011-08-02 03:01:55 <upb> run by a person that had access to db
 463 2011-08-02 03:01:57 <upb> weird
 464 2011-08-02 03:02:28 <JFK911> sinister
 465 2011-08-02 03:03:01 <cjdelisle> I dount that kind of "once a week audit" type access is enough, more like seeing every deposit of $ and btc coming in the door and knowing what's about to happen...
 466 2011-08-02 03:03:05 <kartmetal> could be a test account used for QA or whatever.
 467 2011-08-02 03:03:14 <JFK911> since mtgox didnt verify emails, i should have signed up with "hnic@whitehouse.gov"
 468 2011-08-02 03:03:33 <JFK911> no doubt people would be citing it as some conspiracy proof
 469 2011-08-02 03:03:40 <JFK911> too bad i didnt throw you that bone, eh upb?
 470 2011-08-02 03:04:02 <cjdelisle> bbernanki@federalreserve.gov :P
 471 2011-08-02 03:04:25 <JFK911> in other news im going to talk about bitcoins on coast to coast am
 472 2011-08-02 03:04:41 <cjdelisle> cool
 473 2011-08-02 03:04:42 Backburn has quit ()
 474 2011-08-02 03:05:02 <temporalcause> oh what night?
 475 2011-08-02 03:05:43 <JFK911> it will be scheduled after my easy bitcoin buying service goes live
 476 2011-08-02 03:06:40 <JFK911> they think its a great idea, all their sponsors pushing the "buy gold" has resulted in monotony
 477 2011-08-02 03:06:59 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 479 2011-08-02 03:07:13 <cjdelisle> it would make an interesting show to compear gold with btc
 480 2011-08-02 03:07:18 <cjdelisle> *compare
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 485 2011-08-02 03:18:51 <nanotube> JFK911: how easy?
 486 2011-08-02 03:19:25 <JFK911> send checks get BTC
 487 2011-08-02 03:21:29 <nanotube> guess that's pretty easy. :) not necessarily easier than dwolla, but easy enough. :)
 488 2011-08-02 03:21:49 <nanotube> (not that i'm a fan of dwolla due to the chargebacks... but if mtgox accepts them, not my problem heh)
 489 2011-08-02 03:25:07 <temporalcause> idk why mtgox doesn't just take credit cards and e-checks like any of a multitude of e-commerce sites..
 490 2011-08-02 03:26:00 <cjdelisle> chargeback hell
 491 2011-08-02 03:26:45 <luke-jr> temporalcause: because credit cards and e-checks aren't real
 492 2011-08-02 03:26:59 <temporalcause> neither are bitcoins lol
 493 2011-08-02 03:27:21 <temporalcause> and if anything bounces they can just freeze the account until it's paid back with charges, etc...
 494 2011-08-02 03:28:26 <temporalcause> just add an appropriate transaction fee to pay the credit card fees and such...
 495 2011-08-02 03:29:28 <lfm> Too many fee invite competition
 496 2011-08-02 03:29:55 <luke-jr> temporalcause: bitcoins are real
 497 2011-08-02 03:29:59 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 498 2011-08-02 03:30:00 <temporalcause> mtgox needs competition
 499 2011-08-02 03:30:12 <cjdelisle> freeze the account o_O
 500 2011-08-02 03:30:14 <lfm> mtgox might disagree
 501 2011-08-02 03:30:24 <luke-jr> temporalcause: let's see… I buy $500 worth of bitcoins on MtGox using my credit card. I withdraw those, and tell my CC company my card was stolen
 502 2011-08-02 03:30:26 <luke-jr> woops
 503 2011-08-02 03:30:48 <temporalcause> hmm i guess
 504 2011-08-02 03:30:53 <cjdelisle> Yup, wire transfers can be reversed for 60 days.
 505 2011-08-02 03:30:56 <luke-jr> lfm: nah, competition is good, and MtGox has plenty
 506 2011-08-02 03:31:10 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: MtGox can refuse a wire chargeback :P
 507 2011-08-02 03:31:20 <lfm> put a 90 day hold on credit card $
 508 2011-08-02 03:31:35 <cjdelisle> that's like forevah
 509 2011-08-02 03:31:37 <luke-jr> lfm: it'd have to be 6 months
 510 2011-08-02 03:31:50 <lfm> ok 6 month
 511 2011-08-02 03:31:59 <luke-jr> in-person cash is faster
 512 2011-08-02 03:32:17 <cjdelisle> lol swimming to japan with the cash in your pocket is faster
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 517 2011-08-02 03:42:10 <drgr33n> Hey guys just a quick question. Using the latest version of the bitcoin software if I symlink a wallet to the .bitcoin directory the client removes it ?
 518 2011-08-02 03:42:21 <drgr33n> I'm sure this didn't happen before ?
 519 2011-08-02 03:42:37 spm_Draget has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 520 2011-08-02 03:43:12 <iddo> removes it? what do you mean?
 521 2011-08-02 03:43:42 spm_Draget has joined
 522 2011-08-02 03:43:52 <drgr33n> It rewrites with a new wallet
 523 2011-08-02 03:44:12 Blitzboom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 524 2011-08-02 03:44:14 <drgr33n> if I place a dummy file there it works as anticipated
 525 2011-08-02 03:45:25 <drgr33n> So basically I setup some encrypted file space, copy the wallet across symlink it back and the bitcoin client disregards the symlink and creates a new wallet.
 526 2011-08-02 03:45:29 Blitzboom has joined
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 528 2011-08-02 03:45:29 Blitzboom has joined
 529 2011-08-02 03:46:00 <drgr33n> But if I copy a wallet across to the folder it see's the wallet and uses that.
 530 2011-08-02 03:46:13 <temporalcause> can you just symlink the whole directory?
 531 2011-08-02 03:46:30 <drgr33n> Um I suppose I'll try now
 532 2011-08-02 03:46:41 <temporalcause> hehe :P
 533 2011-08-02 03:48:17 <temporalcause> is there a dev room specifically for gpu mining development on here?
 534 2011-08-02 03:49:02 osmosis has joined
 535 2011-08-02 03:49:18 <temporalcause> or is this it?  haha
 536 2011-08-02 03:49:44 <drgr33n> Nope I get a DB error. plus I didn't want to bloat the encrypted filespace. I'm sure this worked with the old version
 537 2011-08-02 03:50:42 <iddo> drgr33n: it's not important as permanent solution anyway, v0.4 will have encrypted wallet where private keys get decrypted only when you send coins, which is safer than what you do
 538 2011-08-02 03:51:50 <drgr33n> Ahhh I see this option already in the git version.
 539 2011-08-02 03:53:49 <Zarutian> h'lo. I have question regarding https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_4:_Using_external_state does the result from the oracle come in front of the granddads txn's output's scriptPubkey? So the resulting whole script that decides if the grandson gets the inheritance or not would be <grandsons scriptSig><oracles script sig of the result of the evaluated expression checking if granddad is alive or dead><granddads scriptPubkey>
 540 2011-08-02 03:55:26 <drgr33n> Could anyone point me to the snippet of code responsible for checking if a wallet exists and creates if not ?
 541 2011-08-02 03:56:28 <dooglus> [6~
 542 2011-08-02 03:59:32 <dooglus> I said that?
 543 2011-08-02 03:59:33 <dooglus> weird
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 553 2011-08-02 04:02:30 <dooglus> drgr33n: I'm guessing it's the "ret = pdb->open(..." in db.cpp that does it
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 556 2011-08-02 04:04:19 <drgr33n> I think thats got more to do with the database ? I was looking at
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 559 2011-08-02 04:04:47 <drgr33n> http://pastebin.com/HinMAy17
 560 2011-08-02 04:05:08 <dooglus> drgr33n: the wallet is a database
 561 2011-08-02 04:05:19 <drgr33n> Could someone tell me if I'm correct lol I'm no c+= coder this is going to take quite a bit :D
 562 2011-08-02 04:05:40 <drgr33n> ahhh ok
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 564 2011-08-02 04:05:52 <dooglus> drgr33n: line 4 of your paste makes a CWallet object
 565 2011-08-02 04:06:04 <dooglus> which ends up calling the code I mentioned
 566 2011-08-02 04:06:30 <drgr33n> Ok so wheres the test to check if a wallet already exists ?
 567 2011-08-02 04:06:40 <drgr33n> Or am I being dumb lol
 568 2011-08-02 04:07:53 * Zarutian patiently waits for an answer.
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 570 2011-08-02 04:10:18 <cjdelisle> Zarutian: you might want to check back in about 12 hours from now, that's when devs seem to be around.
 571 2011-08-02 04:11:57 <cjdelisle> My unofficial answer is that I think that example was "wearing rose colored glasses" so to speak and the suggection an oracle not actually knowing it is an oracle while still providing the signed data ready made for the chain is ridiculous.
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 573 2011-08-02 04:15:30 <drgr33n> http://pastebin.com/6gadR4P5
 574 2011-08-02 04:15:35 <drgr33n> that looks more like it :D
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 578 2011-08-02 04:26:47 <Eliel> cjdelisle: it's ridiculous as long as there's no significant use for that sort of info other than bitcoin.
 579 2011-08-02 04:27:24 <Eliel> I mean, as long as bitcoin clients support it, it could theoretically use any algorithm.
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 587 2011-08-02 04:43:15 <drgr33n> bah it was my script :D sorry peops lol
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 633 2011-08-02 07:16:48 <dazboy22> hi
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 636 2011-08-02 07:26:11 <erus`> ;;help
 637 2011-08-02 07:26:12 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
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 647 2011-08-02 07:43:18 <dazboy22> anyone buying any btc?
 648 2011-08-02 07:46:07 <MrSam> i'll sell you mine
 649 2011-08-02 07:46:23 <MrSam> 1 testnet btc for 1 usd
 650 2011-08-02 07:47:49 <JFK911> lol havent you given up yet
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 654 2011-08-02 07:50:28 <dazboy22> JFK911
 655 2011-08-02 07:50:30 <dazboy22> who?
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 661 2011-08-02 08:06:26 <erus`> its a trap
 662 2011-08-02 08:08:55 <ersi> Could someone please look at http://pejsta.nu/21 (Build errors)?
 663 2011-08-02 08:09:02 <ersi> Trying to build a recent git clone of bitcoin with wxWidgets-2.9.2 and miniupnpc-1.5
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 677 2011-08-02 08:19:53 <erus`> ersi: shouldnt there be a -lwxwidgets or something
 678 2011-08-02 08:20:22 <erus`> -lwxregexu-2.9 -lwxtiff-2.9
 679 2011-08-02 08:20:40 <erus`> is that all you need to link against?
 680 2011-08-02 08:21:38 <erus`> (this is why i hate c/c++)
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 747 2011-08-02 10:44:14 <sacarlson> this value I see in main.cpp INT_MAX  I don't see it defined so it must be built into c++ ?
 748 2011-08-02 10:44:42 <mtrlt> it's defined in climits
 749 2011-08-02 10:44:53 <mtrlt> so yes
 750 2011-08-02 10:47:22 <sacarlson> mtrlt: ok thanks
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 757 2011-08-02 10:58:08 <cosurgi> ;seen tcatm
 758 2011-08-02 10:58:50 <BlueMatt> ;;seen tcatm
 759 2011-08-02 10:58:50 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: <tcatm> jrmithdobbs: do you know the -m switch of mkfs.extX? :)
 760 2011-08-02 10:59:05 <cosurgi> tcatm: ayt?
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 765 2011-08-02 11:29:20 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gim
 766 2011-08-02 11:29:20 <gribble> gim was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 39 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <gim> i agree (even though i use emacs for coding)
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 773 2011-08-02 11:56:45 <tcatm> cosurgi: pong
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 804 2011-08-02 13:08:30 <MaggyO> how many confirms should i wait until i trust a transaction
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 807 2011-08-02 13:10:09 <MrSam> 120
 808 2011-08-02 13:11:26 <MaggyO> whats a reasonable number for a website
 809 2011-08-02 13:11:27 <MaggyO> 2?
 810 2011-08-02 13:11:55 <edcba> depends on what you sell :)
 811 2011-08-02 13:12:03 <edcba> and what risks you want to take
 812 2011-08-02 13:12:40 <MaggyO> mtgox waits 6 apparently
 813 2011-08-02 13:12:53 <mtrlt> yea, 6 is where the official client deems a tx as "verified"
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 815 2011-08-02 13:13:28 <MaggyO> the json api defaults to 1
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 817 2011-08-02 13:14:53 <Eliel> mtrlt: this has been repeated over and over but there's no official client :D Although I do understand the impulse to call it that :P
 818 2011-08-02 13:15:09 <Eliel> I'm bound to make that mistake myself, yet :P
 819 2011-08-02 13:17:05 <mabus> can you explain how it's not the default client
 820 2011-08-02 13:17:16 <vegardno> you mean there's no official client because bitcoin is distributed?
 821 2011-08-02 13:17:35 <vegardno> it is easily the original client, though, and the one feeatures on bitcoin.org
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 825 2011-08-02 13:19:09 <mtrlt> "the client that 99.9% of users use anyway" is too long :P
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 827 2011-08-02 13:21:10 <edcba> 99.9 i doubt that
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 858 2011-08-02 14:46:34 <mabus> 09:12 < vegardno> you mean there's no official client because bitcoin is distributed?
 859 2011-08-02 14:46:40 <mabus> that doesnt mean anything
 860 2011-08-02 14:46:53 <mabus> bittorrent has (had) an official client
 861 2011-08-02 14:47:00 <mabus> limewire, emule etc
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 865 2011-08-02 14:50:40 <BlueMatt> limewire wasnt the official client
 866 2011-08-02 14:50:48 <BlueMatt> there was none for gnutella
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 870 2011-08-02 15:04:59 <CIA-103> bitcoin: m0mchil * r076f85c63d1c poclbm/Transport.py: again fixed calculation of true target http://tinyurl.com/3k66ysl
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 886 2011-08-02 15:25:16 <vegardno> mabus: I was just asking for a clarification of his point
 887 2011-08-02 15:25:25 <vegardno> that's not my opinion
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 936 2011-08-02 16:31:10 <asher^> does pushpool have a stop command?
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 938 2011-08-02 16:31:51 <jrmithdobbs> sigterm
 939 2011-08-02 16:32:21 <asher^> heh ok, thanks
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 954 2011-08-02 17:02:55 <hippich_> hey, is it possible to tell btc client to not generate new address for a change and re-use existing addresses in pool _always_?
 955 2011-08-02 17:03:11 <luke-jr> sure, hack the code
 956 2011-08-02 17:03:28 <hippich_> this is obvious =)
 957 2011-08-02 17:03:31 <BlueMatt> its an easy change
 958 2011-08-02 17:03:44 <BlueMatt> s/its/it should be/
 959 2011-08-02 17:04:03 <hippich_> i also think so. but hope someone already did it.
 960 2011-08-02 17:04:03 <BlueMatt> bonus points if you fix https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/445 while you are in there
 961 2011-08-02 17:06:21 <ewal-otg> is it still likelythat the import/export pull request will get merged as part of the next release?
 962 2011-08-02 17:10:52 <jrmithdobbs> it's slated for part of .4 yes
 963 2011-08-02 17:11:08 <jrmithdobbs> wallet crypto (in) and import/export were the major items
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 965 2011-08-02 17:13:08 <luke-jr> don't forget signmessage
 966 2011-08-02 17:14:17 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, those funds might be claimable...
 967 2011-08-02 17:14:19 karnac has joined
 968 2011-08-02 17:19:06 <phantomcircuit> no nvm
 969 2011-08-02 17:19:11 <phantomcircuit> definitely not
 970 2011-08-02 17:19:27 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ++ for being open
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 998 2011-08-02 18:13:11 <ersi> ;;estimate 1500 501
 999 2011-08-02 18:13:12 <gribble> Error: "estimate" is not a valid command.
1000 2011-08-02 18:13:18 <ersi> ;;bc,help
1001 2011-08-02 18:13:18 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias (1 more message)
1002 2011-08-02 18:13:35 <ersi> ;;bc,estimate 1500 501
1003 2011-08-02 18:13:35 <gribble> 2015247.49547277
1004 2011-08-02 18:13:45 <ersi> ;;bc,caöc 1500 501
1005 2011-08-02 18:13:45 <gribble> Error: "bc,caöc" is not a valid command.
1006 2011-08-02 18:13:48 <ersi> ;;bc,calc 1500 501
1007 2011-08-02 18:13:50 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1008 2011-08-02 18:14:16 <ersi> ;;bc,gend 1500 501
1009 2011-08-02 18:14:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 501, is 3.01146221732 BTC per day and 0.125477592388 BTC per hour.
1010 2011-08-02 18:14:40 <ersi> ;;bc,gend 70000 501
1011 2011-08-02 18:14:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 70000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 501, is 140.534903475 BTC per day and 5.85562097812 BTC per hour.
1012 2011-08-02 18:20:25 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1014 2011-08-02 18:22:51 <CydeWeys> ersi: The bot responds in PM to that stuff.
1015 2011-08-02 18:23:16 <ersi> Heh, didn't know that. But now I do. Hint gotten.
1016 2011-08-02 18:23:18 slush has joined
1017 2011-08-02 18:23:36 <ersi> Also, the help it outputs sucks dongs
1018 2011-08-02 18:24:01 vigilyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1019 2011-08-02 18:27:12 <asher^> ive got a more user friendly bot in another channel if youre interested
1020 2011-08-02 18:28:59 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
1021 2011-08-02 18:30:05 <ersi> Hm. Is anyone here fiddling with trunk? Are you able to start the client with -server -testnet?
1022 2011-08-02 18:32:49 <ersi> What permissions should .bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf have?
1023 2011-08-02 18:36:17 wardearia has joined
1024 2011-08-02 18:38:07 <ersi> Oh, I see. It's just being tricky. It tells you .bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf.. but it's really looking for .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf. Sneaky.
1025 2011-08-02 18:39:15 dvide has joined
1026 2011-08-02 18:40:36 <jrmithdobbs> awesome dna: patentable
1027 2011-08-02 18:40:40 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/02/isolated_human_genes_can_be_patented/
1028 2011-08-02 18:41:05 <jrmithdobbs> wrong channel
1029 2011-08-02 18:41:57 <cjdelisle> the patent office is a fraud, you can patent the process of making toast but good luck ever defending it
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1032 2011-08-02 18:43:58 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: this was a court ruling
1033 2011-08-02 18:44:16 <jrmithdobbs> as in, they have successfully defended it (can be appealed a few more times)
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1039 2011-08-02 18:49:05 <ersi> I got a miner (poclbm) trying to connect to bitcoind (running testnet), which gets the following in debug.log: PROCESSMESSAGE MESSAGESTART NOT FOUND
1040 2011-08-02 18:49:15 <ersi> Anyone got any hints for what that means?
1041 2011-08-02 18:53:27 <cjdelisle> hmm another sign of the old governmental/legal/financial structure condemning itself to obscurity. As holders of BTC, we should be thankful since through their incompetence, they're effectively resigning their post.
1042 2011-08-02 18:54:57 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1046 2011-08-02 19:06:07 <ersi> Anyone? :|
1047 2011-08-02 19:07:23 Tiggr has joined
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1050 2011-08-02 19:08:36 Tiggr is now known as MrTiggr
1051 2011-08-02 19:24:10 <ersi> Guess you can't use a regular miner with a bitcoind which runs on testnet then T_ T
1052 2011-08-02 19:25:11 repl has joined
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1054 2011-08-02 19:29:42 b4epoche_ has joined
1055 2011-08-02 19:30:35 <dooglus> ersi: I ran a miner on testnet recently
1056 2011-08-02 19:30:51 <ersi> GPU miner? poclbm/phoenix etc?
1057 2011-08-02 19:31:13 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1058 2011-08-02 19:31:18 <dooglus> ersi: ~/Programs/cpuminer/minerd --threads 1 --url http://localhost:8332 --userpass user:pass
1059 2011-08-02 19:31:28 <dooglus> ersi: a CPU miner, but that shouldn't matter
1060 2011-08-02 19:31:38 <ersi> because I'm getting that message in the debug.log with bitcoin-0.3.24 as well
1061 2011-08-02 19:32:03 liori has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1063 2011-08-02 19:36:21 <ersi> Uh, hm. Now I'm getting spammed with IRC got who'
1064 2011-08-02 19:36:33 <ersi> when my miner connects to bitcoin:8332 o_o
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1069 2011-08-02 19:42:43 <ersi> Huh.
1070 2011-08-02 19:42:55 <ersi> Works @ 0.3.24 on windows
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1074 2011-08-02 19:47:13 <xelister> fuck.
1075 2011-08-02 19:49:27 ewal-otg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1076 2011-08-02 19:51:11 <xelister> Fuuuuuu
1077 2011-08-02 19:52:16 topace has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1078 2011-08-02 19:53:20 <coderrr> xelister, wat are you fuuuing about
1079 2011-08-02 19:53:38 <xelister> 10
1080 2011-08-02 19:54:27 <coderrr> as in u predict we're heading there?
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1084 2011-08-02 20:10:12 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1085 2011-08-02 20:12:13 <copumpkin> b4epoche: how goes your mac os client by the way? need testars?
1086 2011-08-02 20:16:52 diki has left ()
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1088 2011-08-02 20:17:34 <lfm> ;;bc,diff
1089 2011-08-02 20:17:34 <gribble> 1888786.7053531
1090 2011-08-02 20:19:05 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: the link was a different bug on the old encryption branch
1091 2011-08-02 20:19:27 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: (on issue 445), but it resulted in the same address
1092 2011-08-02 20:19:33 <BlueMatt> either way this bug is probably my fault as well
1093 2011-08-02 20:19:42 <BlueMatt> I think Im the last to have touched the keypool code
1094 2011-08-02 20:23:47 <Eliel> is there any software for the moment that supports importing addresses from the wallet so you can monitor the balances with it but can't make transactions (as it doesn't have private keys)?
1095 2011-08-02 20:24:02 <BlueMatt> wallet encryption is the only way currently
1096 2011-08-02 20:24:14 <BlueMatt> its something that has been tossed around, but never actually implemented afaik
1097 2011-08-02 20:24:38 <BlueMatt> but you can gladly import into an encrypted wallet and never enter the password or manually overwrite the master key
1098 2011-08-02 20:25:00 <Eliel> does the RPC API have enough functionality so you could do it from a separate program?
1099 2011-08-02 20:26:00 <Eliel> I just might write one if it's possible through the RPC API.
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1110 2011-08-02 20:31:38 <SgtSpike> MagicalTux, may I PM you?
1111 2011-08-02 20:32:55 <BlueMatt> Eliel: no, the check this address' balance feature has never been implemented in the client, you would have to implement it yourself
1112 2011-08-02 20:32:57 fabianhjr has joined
1113 2011-08-02 20:33:14 <BlueMatt> (unless you actually import a key into the wallet, then remove it)
1114 2011-08-02 20:33:33 <fabianhjr> Should we split #bitcoin into #bitcoin and #bitcoin-mining ?
1115 2011-08-02 20:33:47 <fabianhjr> Nvm, it is already split.
1116 2011-08-02 20:33:48 <BlueMatt> there already is a bitcoin-mining
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1118 2011-08-02 20:34:45 <lfm> bluematt can we fix it so testnet will no longer accept mainnet address string? it is a one line fix.
1119 2011-08-02 20:35:23 <BlueMatt> I dont see why not, but there mustve been some argument against originally, not something satoshi? (or gavin, whoever did that code) wouldve missed
1120 2011-08-02 20:36:05 <lfm> bluematt ya, the only argument is that byte is labled as a "version" so the test is >= instead of ==
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1122 2011-08-02 20:36:44 <lfm> base58.h:    return (nVersion <= ADDRESSVERSION);
1123 2011-08-02 20:36:52 <BlueMatt> well its a simple change, so Im assuming there was some reason why it was desired to be able to send testnet coins to mainnet addresses)
1124 2011-08-02 20:37:05 <BlueMatt> though I would have to say its not a bad idea...
1125 2011-08-02 20:37:08 <BlueMatt> (to leave it)
1126 2011-08-02 20:37:22 <BlueMatt> I mean that way you can test with real addresses
1127 2011-08-02 20:37:41 <BlueMatt> ie if your frontend does its own isaddressvalid function
1128 2011-08-02 20:37:54 <lfm> The only "reason" is if the byte was actually a version you should be able to send older version strings to newer systems but since the byte is not really used that way. it is worng imho
1129 2011-08-02 20:38:47 <lfm> bluematt it is a big pain in the but if you accidently put a mainnet adddress in then you gotta fiddle with wallets back and forth
1130 2011-08-02 20:38:50 <Eliel> it could be used that way in the future. Maybe Satoshi intended for the version to be incremented if the algorithms are ever switched.
1131 2011-08-02 20:39:13 <BlueMatt> meh, you can ask sipa, tcatm, jgarzik gavin if they care, personally I dont care either way
1132 2011-08-02 20:39:27 <lfm> sigh
1133 2011-08-02 20:39:47 <BlueMatt> yea, but we have enough headroom to leave processing of testnet and mainnet version 2, 3, etc separate
1134 2011-08-02 20:39:53 <BlueMatt> without needing to think about that
1135 2011-08-02 20:39:53 jimon has quit (Excess Flood)
1136 2011-08-02 20:39:59 <Eliel> yes, true
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1138 2011-08-02 20:40:52 <lfm> how many to reserve for mainnet? all values < 0x80?
1139 2011-08-02 20:41:00 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1140 2011-08-02 20:41:05 <lfm> no, 0x40
1141 2011-08-02 20:41:19 <lfm> testnet is 11 < 0x80
1142 2011-08-02 20:41:25 <lfm> testnet is 111 < 0x80
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1144 2011-08-02 20:41:49 <BlueMatt> though look up sipa's thing on address numbering meanings
1145 2011-08-02 20:42:20 <Eliel> 0x40 sounds like enough to me. Enough versions that you can start recycling old ones if they're ever all used up.
1146 2011-08-02 20:42:34 <BlueMatt> he came up with a new standard that encompasses all the different coin systems
1147 2011-08-02 20:42:47 <BlueMatt> the only real argument is to be able to test with real addresses
1148 2011-08-02 20:43:42 <lfm> ya, point is when you accidently sendtoaddress a mainnet address. it gets "converted" into a testnet address. ie the key is unchanged but the address string has various formats for the various "version" bytes
1149 2011-08-02 20:44:35 b4epoche_ has joined
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1151 2011-08-02 20:47:51 <lfm> I expect the code involved would need to be reworked if there was a new address string format in any case so it cant hurt to just make the test ==
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1154 2011-08-02 20:49:39 <lfm> or i spoze if the hash160 involved needed to be changed
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1168 2011-08-02 20:58:01 <marvinm_> ;;bc,stats
1169 2011-08-02 20:58:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 139339 | Current Difficulty: 1888786.7053531 | Next Difficulty At Block: 141119 | Next Difficulty In: 1780 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2031635.73877421
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1174 2011-08-02 21:05:47 <sneak> http://i55.tinypic.com/2lmvv2a.gif
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1176 2011-08-02 21:06:47 <erus`> wtf am i watching
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1228 2011-08-02 22:12:43 <SgtSpike> MagicalTux, can I PM you?
1229 2011-08-02 22:15:39 <BlueMatt> ask him on #mtgox probably, plus hes probably asleep (or will wake up soon)
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1246 2011-08-02 22:46:59 <SgtSpike> BlueMatt, thanks for the suggestion.  I didn't realize he had his own IRC channel
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1266 2011-08-02 23:13:59 <MaggyO> @btc stats
1267 2011-08-02 23:14:00 <SuprTiggr> MaggyO: Error: "btc" is not a valid command.
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1270 2011-08-02 23:14:42 <imsaguy> ;;btc,stats
1271 2011-08-02 23:14:42 <gribble> Error: "btc,stats" is not a valid command.
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1293 2011-08-02 23:45:28 <BlueMatt> where is a sipa when you need him?
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1296 2011-08-02 23:53:03 <MaggyO> btc mining rate raised 25% in 3 days
1297 2011-08-02 23:53:13 <MaggyO> the F is going on
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1299 2011-08-02 23:54:55 <BlueMatt> I got bored and set up my machine to mine?
1300 2011-08-02 23:55:01 ssxls has joined
1301 2011-08-02 23:59:17 <lfm> MaggyO: it varies a lot daya to day.