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77 2011-08-12 02:00:53 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * re7841d1e0b23 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (15 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: Remove versions prior to 0.3.20.2 and RCs, and backport network DoS fixes and (optionally) current fees http://tinyurl.com/42nkpbo
78 2011-08-12 02:00:53 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rbd127870323b gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (15 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: Remove versions prior to 0.3.20.2 and RCs, and backport network DoS fixes and (optionally) current fees http://tinyurl.com/3w2chnk
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83 2011-08-12 02:14:56 <luke-jr> suggestion: allow backupwallet to encrypt the output, even if main wallet.dat is not encrypted
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88 2011-08-12 02:22:38 <lfm> luke-jr no thank you. maybe an option but leave the current function as is.
89 2011-08-12 02:22:54 <luke-jr> allow implies option :P
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92 2011-08-12 02:29:13 <forrestv> why would namecoin (not sure if this applies to bitcoin, but it might) encode a target as 0x1c007fff instead of 0x1b7fff00?
93 2011-08-12 02:30:15 <lfm> shouldnt. bitcoin wont
94 2011-08-12 02:32:17 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
95 2011-08-12 02:33:34 <lfm> forrestv: I supose it might be some sort of round off bug. it should not do that
96 2011-08-12 02:49:16 <theymos> luke-jr: Why did you edit the wiki to say that clients must have all unspent transactions?
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98 2011-08-12 02:49:33 <mrb_> 10:04 < tcatm> mrb_: that would assume that all mining is done with CPUs which is incorrect, too
99 2011-08-12 02:49:36 <mrb_> you mean GPUs?
100 2011-08-12 02:49:36 <luke-jr> theymos: because they do
101 2011-08-12 02:50:02 <luke-jr> theymos: it's impossible to verify received transactions without them
102 2011-08-12 02:50:06 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: aren't you one of those guys that likes gplv3?
103 2011-08-12 02:50:10 <mrb_> it is more correct to assume that all mining is done with GPUs, than with CPUs
104 2011-08-12 02:50:19 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: depends what for
105 2011-08-12 02:50:24 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: for anything
106 2011-08-12 02:50:45 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: you ever written gplv3 licensed code that involved linked lists?
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108 2011-08-12 02:50:53 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no
109 2011-08-12 02:51:08 <jrmithdobbs> i'm trying to find someone in violation of gplv3 unknowingly
110 2011-08-12 02:51:14 <luke-jr> â¦
111 2011-08-12 02:51:15 <theymos> luke-jr: You can use SPV to get confirmations. In the future, Bitcoin will do this by default, and most people will not download all unspent transactions.
112 2011-08-12 02:51:16 <jrmithdobbs> because both single and double linked lists are patented ;p
113 2011-08-12 02:51:22 <jrmithdobbs> http://www.google.com/patents?id=Szh4AAAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=ininventor:%22Ming-Jen+Wang%22&hl=en&ei=JpFETt2OOuT30gHY752QCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA
114 2011-08-12 02:51:26 <jrmithdobbs> (dead serious)
115 2011-08-12 02:51:34 <luke-jr> theymos: SPV?
116 2011-08-12 02:52:06 <theymos> luke-jr: Simplified payment verification. It's in the paper.
117 2011-08-12 02:52:12 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I'm of the opinion that software patents are not legal and the courts have erred
118 2011-08-12 02:52:36 <jrmithdobbs> well they keep err'ing
119 2011-08-12 02:52:40 <luke-jr> theymos: just trusting that if it makes it to 1 confirmation it's ok?
120 2011-08-12 02:54:07 <luke-jr> right now, the solution to "confirmations take too long" is to accept them at 0 confirmations
121 2011-08-12 02:54:16 <luke-jr> but you can't get 0 confirmations without the unspent txns
122 2011-08-12 02:54:22 <theymos> luke-jr Yes (thoug maybe with more confirmations). You can't do "real" verification without all unspent transactions, but it's expected that most clients in the future will trust the network enough to not need to do full verification. And it will be impossibly hard for most standard users to receive and store all unspent transactions.
123 2011-08-12 02:55:03 <luke-jr> the network cannot be trusted by design
124 2011-08-12 02:56:47 <theymos> The scalability page on the wiki says that the network will require receiving 8 gigabytes per second if the Bitcoin network gets huge. Standard clients will have to rely on SPV long before then.
125 2011-08-12 02:57:52 <theymos> Obviously it would be better not to trust the network, but it will be necessary in the future. Maybe in part to avoid legal issues associated with possessing the block chain.
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135 2011-08-12 03:06:34 <luke-jr> theymos: if possessing the block chain is ever really illegal, Bitcoin is dead.
136 2011-08-12 03:06:46 <phantomcircuit> lol right
137 2011-08-12 03:07:19 <theymos> luke-jr: If owning the block chain is illegal in the US, then those clients can all use SPV and all miners can be located outside of the US.
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144 2011-08-12 03:22:15 <AAA_awright> jrmithdobbs: That's FUD, no one cares about patents
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146 2011-08-12 03:23:16 <AAA_awright> Not only wouldn't they but the FSF or any other org cannot sue over someone using a patented algorithm that's not theirs
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162 2011-08-12 03:55:40 <EPiSKiNG-> anyone know about electricity? I have a 12v pump that I use to pump waste veggie oil into my grease bus. Can I splice an extension cord into the power lines and plug it straight into our 1000w power inverter??
163 2011-08-12 03:56:12 <EPiSKiNG-> We used to connect it to the deep cycle 12v battery, but it'd be more convienient to plug straight into a socket...
164 2011-08-12 03:56:53 osmosis has joined
165 2011-08-12 03:58:23 <[Tycho]> What socket ?
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167 2011-08-12 03:59:05 <EPiSKiNG-> a standard power outlet
168 2011-08-12 03:59:21 <EPiSKiNG-> that comes from the inverter that is connected to the bus's auxillary battery
169 2011-08-12 03:59:45 <[Tycho]> No, you can't plug 12 v DC pump into 220 v AC socket.
170 2011-08-12 03:59:58 <[Tycho]> Firework will happen :)
171 2011-08-12 04:00:42 <EPiSKiNG-> yeah, that would be baddd
172 2011-08-12 04:01:01 <EPiSKiNG-> aahh, so the inverter converts DC to AC?
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174 2011-08-12 04:05:10 <[Tycho]> Yes.
175 2011-08-12 04:05:52 <EPiSKiNG-> sooo what do i need to make a plug/socket type connection to the battery rather than aligator clamps
176 2011-08-12 04:07:16 <EPiSKiNG-> standard extension cable to a standard socket, from the pump to the battery?
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180 2011-08-12 04:13:00 <[Tycho]> Why are you using battery, btw ?
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198 2011-08-12 05:15:15 <soap> the pump is 12v
199 2011-08-12 05:15:38 <soap> there is a reason you can't find a bloody cable to plug it into the wall, EPiSKiNG-
200 2011-08-12 05:16:12 <soap> fuck, why bother.
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206 2011-08-12 05:30:17 <random_cat> it sounds like he needs to tie it into the far side of the inverter... the battery side (or is it 12v AC?)
207 2011-08-12 05:30:37 <random_cat> (or do you run a 24V system?)
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209 2011-08-12 05:31:05 * random_cat boggles at the question esp. in this channel
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212 2011-08-12 05:56:03 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rf777ee14a4b2 / (7 files in 6 dirs): Serialise access to threads using strand. http://tinyurl.com/3l5gv6r
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217 2011-08-12 06:07:20 <forrestv> anybody want to help me figure this out: http://im.forre.st/pb/66985527.txt
218 2011-08-12 06:07:30 <forrestv> namecoin uses an identical bignum.h
219 2011-08-12 06:07:45 <forrestv> and one of their compressedtargets is encoded in a way that doesn't make sense
220 2011-08-12 06:07:53 <forrestv> 0x1c007fff
221 2011-08-12 06:08:07 <forrestv> i guess this is some kind of off-by-one error or rounding error?
222 2011-08-12 06:08:51 <forrestv> that pastebinned text is proof that that block data results in that block hash, which is in the namecoin chain
223 2011-08-12 06:11:23 <forrestv> 'BN_bn2mpi() and BN_mpi2bn() convert BIGNUM s from and to a format that consists of the number's length in bytes represented as a 4-byte big-endian number, and the number itself in big-endian format, where the most significant bit signals a negative number (the representation of numbers with the MSB set is prefixed with null byte).'
224 2011-08-12 06:11:39 <forrestv> the msb of 0x7fff{lots of 0s} is not set ..
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228 2011-08-12 06:18:45 <Plasma-> forrestv; I dont know enough about the topic to really help, but I notice what you said earlier may help
229 2011-08-12 06:18:56 <Plasma-> <forrestv> why would namecoin (not sure if this applies to bitcoin, but it might) encode a target as 0x1c007fff instead of 0x1b7fff00? <-- the two values look similar, just jumbled up?
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232 2011-08-12 06:19:18 <Plasma-> are you maybe parsing 1 byte too early or later or something?
233 2011-08-12 06:19:24 <Plasma-> byte or bit*
234 2011-08-12 06:19:46 <Plasma-> so the calculation is off slightly (so c becomes b) etc but only just, so the rest of the parsing loks ok
235 2011-08-12 06:19:48 <Plasma-> looks ok*
236 2011-08-12 06:19:51 <forrestv> nah .. targets are encoded as <byte encoding length of target><first three bytes of target>
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238 2011-08-12 06:19:57 <forrestv> if you look at those, they're equivalent
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240 2011-08-12 06:20:56 <forrestv> 0x1c007fff -> 0x007fff * 2^(0x1c - 24)
241 2011-08-12 06:21:09 <forrestv> 0x1b7fff00 -> 0x7fff00 * 2^(0x1b - 24)
242 2011-08-12 06:22:27 <forrestv> i manually checked the block hash in that pastebin, it's definitely included like this :P
243 2011-08-12 06:26:16 E-sense has quit (Quit: System.exit(0);)
244 2011-08-12 06:28:22 <Plasma-> sorry I dont know enough about bitcoin to be much use yet :(
245 2011-08-12 06:28:36 <Plasma-> all I can offer is some advice :P - you've probably made an assumption somewhere, double check they are right
246 2011-08-12 06:28:55 <Plasma-> I find when I cant figure something out, its usually because I've assumed incorrectly about how something works etc
247 2011-08-12 06:31:56 <Plasma-> maybe get yourself a few more examples to decode etc too and see if there is a pattern, or look at the source code of whatever encoded them to check for any specifics in how its encoding things
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253 2011-08-12 06:53:13 <luke-jr> so what do you guys think of ixcoin?
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255 2011-08-12 06:53:21 <RealSolid> shutup
256 2011-08-12 06:53:24 <luke-jr> anyone want to put 388 BTC toward killing it?
257 2011-08-12 06:53:30 <RealSolid> haha
258 2011-08-12 06:53:34 <forrestv> luke-jr, how would that work?
259 2011-08-12 06:53:55 <luke-jr> forrestv: I use 388 BTC to pay the Eligius miners for the 35 hours it would take to fork their block chain at height 2, and take over all blocks
260 2011-08-12 06:54:14 <RealSolid> do it
261 2011-08-12 06:54:19 <luke-jr> I don't have 388 BTC
262 2011-08-12 06:54:32 <RealSolid> you mean you dont have 388btc to spare on killing ixcoin
263 2011-08-12 06:54:32 <luke-jr> to spare
264 2011-08-12 06:54:35 <RealSolid> haha
265 2011-08-12 06:54:50 <RealSolid> dont kill it yet anyhow, im still profiting ffs
266 2011-08-12 06:55:02 <luke-jr> me too, but still
267 2011-08-12 06:55:14 <RealSolid> its going to die anyhow
268 2011-08-12 06:55:15 <luke-jr> side effect: people might get pissed at Eligius :/
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271 2011-08-12 06:55:20 <RealSolid> the developer is funding the buys
272 2011-08-12 06:55:28 <luke-jr> probably
273 2011-08-12 06:55:34 <RealSolid> there is no probably
274 2011-08-12 06:55:50 <RealSolid> he entered yesterday early
275 2011-08-12 06:55:57 <RealSolid> set a "massive 600 btc" wall
276 2011-08-12 06:56:14 <luke-jr> lol
277 2011-08-12 06:56:16 <RealSolid> and has been adjusting his buys depending upon the mood in the irc channel and difficultly levels
278 2011-08-12 06:56:21 <RealSolid> good strat
279 2011-08-12 06:56:30 <random_cat> so wtf is ixcoin?
280 2011-08-12 06:56:34 <luke-jr> yet less than 600 BTC to take over ;)
281 2011-08-12 06:56:44 <RealSolid> luke-jr: that was 600btc once off yesterday
282 2011-08-12 06:56:48 <RealSolid> he may have entered more
283 2011-08-12 06:56:55 <RealSolid> seems like possibly an early btc guy
284 2011-08-12 06:57:02 <luke-jr> random_cat: retarded bitcoin fork that doesn't fix any of the problems, gives 96 IXC per block, and abuses freenode for peer finding
285 2011-08-12 06:57:19 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
286 2011-08-12 06:57:19 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":10.18,"low":8.45099,"avg":9.440850607,"vwap":9.363116538,"vol":77618,"last":9,"buy":8.99145,"sell":9}}
287 2011-08-12 06:57:23 <random_cat> is it supposed to fix any problems?
288 2011-08-12 06:57:31 <RealSolid> could be playing social experiment, or most likely , hopeing to profit big
289 2011-08-12 06:57:40 Burgundy has quit ()
290 2011-08-12 06:57:49 <RealSolid> turn a few thousand BTC into 50 thousand or something
291 2011-08-12 06:57:51 <luke-jr> random_cat: no, they didn't change any problems
292 2011-08-12 06:57:59 <random_cat> ic
293 2011-08-12 06:58:27 <luke-jr> I wonder, if the exchange would notice it's lost all its IXC
294 2011-08-12 06:58:52 <luke-jr> or if we could sell it all when we take over, and withdraw before the oper notices
295 2011-08-12 07:00:25 <luke-jr> oh well
296 2011-08-12 07:00:47 <luke-jr> if anyone with lots of Bitcoin to waste wants to kill ixcoin, lemme know :P
297 2011-08-12 07:01:24 <luke-jr> obviously the price will go up as it grows
298 2011-08-12 07:02:01 <RealSolid> stop being a pussy and point elegius to it
299 2011-08-12 07:02:18 <luke-jr> RealSolid: I don't have the funding for it
300 2011-08-12 07:02:37 <RealSolid> who needs funding when you have admin password
301 2011-08-12 07:02:51 <luke-jr> that'd be called theft, to defraud my miners
302 2011-08-12 07:03:08 <RealSolid> naw
303 2011-08-12 07:03:15 <RealSolid> because theyd have ixcoins which are currently worth more
304 2011-08-12 07:03:26 <luke-jr> they sure wouldn't be after the takeover
305 2011-08-12 07:03:45 <RealSolid> since its like 4-6x more profitable just do it and silently dump
306 2011-08-12 07:03:49 <RealSolid> it will buy you time
307 2011-08-12 07:04:20 <luke-jr> â¦
308 2011-08-12 07:04:20 <RealSolid> if you give miners a 25% bonus like they will care
309 2011-08-12 07:04:34 <luke-jr> RealSolid: I'm not sure you understand.
310 2011-08-12 07:04:47 <luke-jr> it would take 35 hours before we'd have any IXC
311 2011-08-12 07:04:56 <RealSolid> 35 hours?
312 2011-08-12 07:04:59 <luke-jr> and at that point, we would have 100% of all IXC
313 2011-08-12 07:05:11 <RealSolid> as soon as you point your pool to it, youll be getting ixc
314 2011-08-12 07:05:19 zeropointo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
315 2011-08-12 07:05:26 <luke-jr> RealSolid: that's not what I mean though
316 2011-08-12 07:05:39 <RealSolid> im saying, use a few hours of silent dumping to fund it
317 2011-08-12 07:05:45 <luke-jr> starting at block 2, we'd be building an alternate chain
318 2011-08-12 07:05:56 <RealSolid> because its 4-6x more profitable, you only need 2 hours of ixcoin mining to hit 12 hours of btc
319 2011-08-12 07:06:06 <luke-jr> it's not.
320 2011-08-12 07:06:14 <luke-jr> it's slightly more profitable.
321 2011-08-12 07:07:03 <RealSolid> well maybe not for you, but for me at least, im making 6-10x more right now
322 2011-08-12 07:07:11 <RealSolid> than comparible btc mining
323 2011-08-12 07:07:19 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
324 2011-08-12 07:07:40 <RealSolid> about 2.4btc a day vs 0.33
325 2011-08-12 07:08:03 <RealSolid> at current prices, i actually made 6btc yesterday
326 2011-08-12 07:08:21 <RealSolid> in about 6 hours
327 2011-08-12 07:08:48 TD has joined
328 2011-08-12 07:10:26 <RealSolid> course if a big pool went on there it might soak it all up
329 2011-08-12 07:10:49 <RealSolid> is eligius even that big? theres like over a Thash mining ixcoins
330 2011-08-12 07:10:53 TD has quit (Client Quit)
331 2011-08-12 07:10:56 <luke-jr> is there really?
332 2011-08-12 07:11:04 <RealSolid> last i checked
333 2011-08-12 07:11:07 <luke-jr> :|
334 2011-08-12 07:11:08 <RealSolid> thats 1/12th of btc network
335 2011-08-12 07:11:24 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
336 2011-08-12 07:11:34 <RealSolid> why you think btc speed slowed so much recently
337 2011-08-12 07:11:42 <luke-jr> value drop
338 2011-08-12 07:12:10 <RealSolid> its been staying at 10 for a while, its not that
339 2011-08-12 07:12:14 <RealSolid> its people making more btc from ix
340 2011-08-12 07:12:30 hugolp has joined
341 2011-08-12 07:12:31 <luke-jr> nah, it was $13 before the drop
342 2011-08-12 07:12:37 <RealSolid> which drop
343 2011-08-12 07:12:42 <luke-jr> people shut down when it first dipped under $10
344 2011-08-12 07:12:54 <RealSolid> bitcoinwatch says they came back
345 2011-08-12 07:13:07 <RealSolid> then went away again
346 2011-08-12 07:15:54 <gjs278> it was $13 for a really long time
347 2011-08-12 07:15:58 <gjs278> then $7 for about 2 days
348 2011-08-12 07:16:01 <gjs278> then back to 9-10
349 2011-08-12 07:16:11 <gjs278> but its definitely been $13 for much longer than $10
350 2011-08-12 07:16:19 <luke-jr> gjs278: rich enough to buy ixcoin's destruction?
351 2011-08-12 07:16:53 <gjs278> what the hell is this crap
352 2011-08-12 07:17:02 <gjs278> lol
353 2011-08-12 07:17:15 <gjs278> umm wow
354 2011-08-12 07:17:15 <luke-jr> gjs278: lame copyoff of bitcoin
355 2011-08-12 07:17:21 <luke-jr> it has no viability
356 2011-08-12 07:17:30 <luke-jr> but imo it'd be cool to kill it early
357 2011-08-12 07:17:32 <RealSolid> yet luke-jr is profiting
358 2011-08-12 07:17:33 <gjs278> yeah
359 2011-08-12 07:17:47 <gjs278> uhh when they are exchanngig that many btcs for coins yes I'd profit from that too
360 2011-08-12 07:17:52 <RealSolid> i love the irony
361 2011-08-12 07:18:05 <RealSolid> "yeah man it has no viability. hold on. SELLING IXCOINS AT 0.01BTC"
362 2011-08-12 07:18:22 <luke-jr> that just supports what I'm saying
363 2011-08-12 07:18:36 <luke-jr> nobody wants them
364 2011-08-12 07:18:43 <RealSolid> somebody does
365 2011-08-12 07:18:48 <RealSolid> the guy youre selling to :P
366 2011-08-12 07:18:50 <luke-jr> the author is buyign them
367 2011-08-12 07:18:56 <RealSolid> many of them
368 2011-08-12 07:19:00 <RealSolid> theres also other fools
369 2011-08-12 07:19:12 <RealSolid> read the forum for some guy blowing 60btc
370 2011-08-12 07:19:16 <gjs278> this is too funny
371 2011-08-12 07:19:30 <RealSolid> the thing i like about ixcoin is
372 2011-08-12 07:19:34 <RealSolid> it doesnt even try to improve upon btc
373 2011-08-12 07:19:49 <RealSolid> its just like, yeah ive been mining 500k coins already, its 96 per block
374 2011-08-12 07:19:56 <luke-jr> yep
375 2011-08-12 07:20:09 <forrestv> oh god
376 2011-08-12 07:20:16 larsivi has joined
377 2011-08-12 07:20:17 <RealSolid> and people lap it up
378 2011-08-12 07:20:23 <RealSolid> no one to blame but ourselves
379 2011-08-12 07:20:29 <gjs278> have you traded your ixcoins to bitcoins yet?
380 2011-08-12 07:20:35 <RealSolid> yah
381 2011-08-12 07:20:38 <gjs278> wow
382 2011-08-12 07:20:41 <RealSolid> IT BE GOING CRAZY
383 2011-08-12 07:20:45 <forrestv> the reason that the target is encoded that way in namecoin is because the compacttarget in the genesis block was set like that .. 0x1c007fff
384 2011-08-12 07:20:46 <RealSolid> ive made like 20btc
385 2011-08-12 07:20:55 <gjs278> how long
386 2011-08-12 07:20:57 <RealSolid> when i usually only make 0.33 a day
387 2011-08-12 07:20:57 <gjs278> for 20
388 2011-08-12 07:21:02 <RealSolid> its almost 24 hours
389 2011-08-12 07:21:05 <gjs278> ok
390 2011-08-12 07:21:21 <RealSolid> youre too late now
391 2011-08-12 07:21:26 <gjs278> think so
392 2011-08-12 07:21:28 <RealSolid> all the fun was just after the exchange went up
393 2011-08-12 07:21:32 <gjs278> oh ok
394 2011-08-12 07:21:47 <RealSolid> and the developer came along with a 600btc buy wall
395 2011-08-12 07:21:56 <gjs278> ah
396 2011-08-12 07:22:07 <RealSolid> and it encouraged other profiteers
397 2011-08-12 07:22:28 <RealSolid> who are now crying on the forum about being bankrupt and not being able to move out of home
398 2011-08-12 07:23:06 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
399 2011-08-12 07:23:12 <gjs278> I'll grab myself a few blocks "just in case" they ever start buying these
400 2011-08-12 07:23:21 <RealSolid> one rumour flying around is its mybitcoin slosh money
401 2011-08-12 07:24:15 <gjs278> I have to change the port on this beast to get it out of my bitcoind way
402 2011-08-12 07:25:37 <RealSolid> dont start mining
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426 2011-08-12 07:53:54 <UukGoblin> hmmm [2068937.779267] bitcoind[6458] general protection ip:41169c sp:7f96d9ff1cf0 error:0 in bitcoind[400000+391000]
427 2011-08-12 07:55:56 iscalar_ has joined
428 2011-08-12 07:56:24 <iscalar_> Hello there, is anybody here a admin or moderator on the bit coin wiki that I could talk to privately for a moment please?
429 2011-08-12 07:57:05 <lfm> something wrong with the wiki?
430 2011-08-12 07:57:59 <iscalar_> not at all
431 2011-08-12 07:58:34 <iscalar_> I offer people a free 10 step gudie to set up miners, and someone keeps removing it on me claiming its spam advertisements and the sites full of ads, when it literally has 2 ads, a banner, and a single side ad.
432 2011-08-12 07:59:00 <iscalar_> Hes now reffered me to the admins to get it removed because I put it back up and explained to him that it wasnt spam, but he refuses to even check the website to see ¬_¬
433 2011-08-12 07:59:34 asuk has joined
434 2011-08-12 07:59:52 <iscalar_> Don't want my site being removed from the wiki because some uninformed dude can't be bothered to load my webpage to check his outlandish claims >_< its a good site, it helps people, and its non profit, i mean, whats up with him =/
435 2011-08-12 08:00:16 <UukGoblin> 4 ads sounds like full indeed
436 2011-08-12 08:00:34 <UukGoblin> but if you're just putting a link to it... dunno, not my job
437 2011-08-12 08:01:01 <lfm> just put your 10 step guide in the wiki without a link then
438 2011-08-12 08:01:55 <lfm> if it is really free
439 2011-08-12 08:02:12 <UukGoblin> ha, great idea :->
440 2011-08-12 08:02:32 <iscalar_> well check for your self man ill query you the link, I feel proud to have such a popular website to be honest, as im sure you would, but I mean if you look at the page (ill query you it) then i'm sure you'll get what I mean =/
441 2011-08-12 08:02:46 <iscalar_> and its 2 ads, not 4 >_<
442 2011-08-12 08:02:52 <lfm> and you feel fulfilled by all the ad money?
443 2011-08-12 08:02:59 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
444 2011-08-12 08:03:08 <iscalar_> haha what ad money
445 2011-08-12 08:03:15 <iscalar_> I offered to show the dude my ad revenue logs
446 2011-08-12 08:03:23 <iscalar_> its a non profit website
447 2011-08-12 08:04:02 <lfm> www.iscyspace.com ?
448 2011-08-12 08:04:11 <iscalar_> -_- i didnt think you could share links here
449 2011-08-12 08:04:14 <iscalar_> but yes, thats it.
450 2011-08-12 08:04:26 <iscalar_> I mean I even asked the dude to go check, see what hes unhappy with, and i'd gladly change it
451 2011-08-12 08:04:40 <lfm> ok I just went there and all I can see is the ads!
452 2011-08-12 08:04:43 <iscalar_> but he just went on saying its spam, i mean he originally removed it saying the guide didnt even exist, i mean, how hard is it to look at a front page O.o
453 2011-08-12 08:04:48 <iscalar_> ¬_¬ thats bs
454 2011-08-12 08:05:08 <iscalar_> What ads ...
455 2011-08-12 08:05:14 <lfm> is saz icsy space chat and the 10 lines of ads
456 2011-08-12 08:05:23 <iscalar_> what O.o
457 2011-08-12 08:05:28 <iscalar_> can you screenshot me it?
458 2011-08-12 08:05:52 <lfm> I had to scroll down to see the official bitcoin wiki
459 2011-08-12 08:06:20 <iscalar_> well ill link you to what I see, tell me if it matches up pelase
460 2011-08-12 08:06:26 <UukGoblin> iscalar_, perhaps you calling it "The official bit coin wiki!"[sic] doesn't help either
461 2011-08-12 08:06:32 <iscalar_> I just want a simple site peopel can go to to learn how to bit coin mine, im proud of my site.
462 2011-08-12 08:06:36 <iscalar_> No dude thats a link to the wiki
463 2011-08-12 08:06:38 <iscalar_> XD
464 2011-08-12 08:06:50 <iscalar_> probably a bit misleading, ill change it to "Link to the official bitcoin wiki"
465 2011-08-12 08:06:51 <UukGoblin> oh
466 2011-08-12 08:08:32 <iscalar_> uploading screeny to image shak now, lfm, is that really what you see, because the actual chat page has no ads at all
467 2011-08-12 08:08:40 <iscalar_> in fact im thinkign of removing it for the chats inactivity
468 2011-08-12 08:08:43 <lfm> ye god its advertizing capitol one credit. that like the sleaziest bank in north america!
469 2011-08-12 08:09:26 <iscalar_> ¬_¬
470 2011-08-12 08:09:46 <iscalar_> http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3423/iscy.png
471 2011-08-12 08:09:50 <iscalar_> There we go, thats what I see
472 2011-08-12 08:09:55 <UukGoblin> ... and then after restarting it: [2115010.051724] bitcoind[20447]: segfault at 39 ip 000000000041169c sp 00007f7c7b7fdcf0 error 4 in bitcoind[400000+391000]
473 2011-08-12 08:10:07 <iscalar_> oh thats because im editing the site right now
474 2011-08-12 08:10:15 <iscalar_> to make it apparent its a ilnk to the wiki and not the actual wiki
475 2011-08-12 08:10:25 TD has joined
476 2011-08-12 08:10:41 <wumpus> UukGoblin: maybe try strarting it in gdb to get a stack trace
477 2011-08-12 08:11:08 <iscalar_> I have no idea what that means, im amateur man >_<
478 2011-08-12 08:11:16 <UukGoblin> wumpus, yeah, don't have time now, unfortunately
479 2011-08-12 08:12:47 TD has quit (Client Quit)
480 2011-08-12 08:12:53 <lfm> iscalar_: http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/Screenshot.png
481 2011-08-12 08:12:55 <iscalar_> But Uuk, seriously though, check the site now, tell me what you think, do those ads count really as "spam advertisements" ? and is the guide apparant on the front page?
482 2011-08-12 08:13:09 d1g1t4l has joined
483 2011-08-12 08:13:14 <iscalar_> Hmm lfm, thats really weird man =/
484 2011-08-12 08:13:23 <iscalar_> try reload now, i updated the home page
485 2011-08-12 08:14:12 <lfm> still the same except the chat link is gone
486 2011-08-12 08:15:12 <iscalar_> Hmm, must be a css error, its a shame i aint got a freakign clue how to fix that =/ what version of mozilla do you use?
487 2011-08-12 08:15:16 <iscalar_> firefox even
488 2011-08-12 08:15:18 <lfm> A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding. You can stop the script now, or you can continue to see if the script will complete.
489 2011-08-12 08:15:39 <lfm> are you trying to hack us?
490 2011-08-12 08:15:45 <iscalar_> Ffs ¬_¬ no
491 2011-08-12 08:15:54 <iscalar_> I use www.bitcoinplus.com on the site
492 2011-08-12 08:16:16 <iscalar_> which is pathetic really because after this entire time i've gained like 0.01 bit coin from it, which they wanted as transaction fee anyway, asses.
493 2011-08-12 08:16:26 <iscalar_> the source is unprotected, feel free to check it.
494 2011-08-12 08:17:49 <UukGoblin> LOL
495 2011-08-12 08:18:03 <UukGoblin> iscalar_, gtfo
496 2011-08-12 08:18:04 <lfm> its firefox 3.6.18
497 2011-08-12 08:18:40 <Giel> ;;bc,stats
498 2011-08-12 08:18:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 140638 | Current Difficulty: 1888786.7053531 | Next Difficulty At Block: 141119 | Next Difficulty In: 481 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes, and 39 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1830913.78022603
499 2011-08-12 08:18:51 <iscalar_> You know what guys, im genuinely asking for advice here, if you want me to show you screenshots of my bit coin plus account and my ad sense account, I'll gladly show you it, I'm not here to spam people
500 2011-08-12 08:18:58 <iscalar_> I just want a simple site with a mining guide, whats up with that . . .
501 2011-08-12 08:19:43 <lfm> ok so if thats all, then you dont need to have it in the wiki
502 2011-08-12 08:20:20 <UukGoblin> iscalar_, you're hiding stuff away from us, you didn't bloody mention the site mines bitcoins for you using users computers without their knowledge
503 2011-08-12 08:20:36 LightRider has joined
504 2011-08-12 08:21:19 <lfm> And nor my bitcoin crashed, whats up with that?
505 2011-08-12 08:21:20 <UukGoblin> this is not only spam advertising, but also spam malware
506 2011-08-12 08:21:39 <lfm> now
507 2011-08-12 08:22:18 <lfm> UNKNOWN EXCEPTION
508 2011-08-12 08:22:22 <lfm> bitcoin in CMyApp::OnUnhandledException()
509 2011-08-12 08:22:40 shadders has joined
510 2011-08-12 08:23:10 <Diablo-D3> well this is interesting
511 2011-08-12 08:23:12 iscalar_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
512 2011-08-12 08:23:15 <Diablo-D3> the main core of the miner kernel
513 2011-08-12 08:23:28 <Diablo-D3> uses 19 registers
514 2011-08-12 08:24:23 <lfm> and now hes gone
515 2011-08-12 08:24:31 <Diablo-D3> wait I think I did something wrong
516 2011-08-12 08:24:52 <makomk> luke-jr: you can't fork the ixcoin block chain at height 2; it's got checkpoints every thousand blocks.
517 2011-08-12 08:26:17 <lfm> UukGoblin: geez hes got a lot of gall eh?
518 2011-08-12 08:27:50 [Tycho] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
519 2011-08-12 08:27:57 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rf3c30f9 / lib/blockchainmanager.js : Refactoring: Move locator creating inside BlockChainDownload class. ... https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/f3c30f908b85602923465fe4addb0324f4d2190b
520 2011-08-12 08:28:36 <UukGoblin> lfm, well I told him to gtfo, at least he listens to orders...
521 2011-08-12 08:28:48 <Diablo-D3> wow
522 2011-08-12 08:28:53 <Diablo-D3> phatk's kernel is EXTREMELY bad
523 2011-08-12 08:29:21 <Diablo-D3> his array is just too goddamned big
524 2011-08-12 08:29:43 <Diablo-D3> assuming I didnt do this wrong, it really is 19 registers used at max.
525 2011-08-12 08:29:50 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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527 2011-08-12 08:30:14 <Diablo-D3> my perl script is lol
528 2011-08-12 08:30:46 iscalar has joined
529 2011-08-12 08:30:47 <Diablo-D3> it makes each assign (ie, every line in the main body of the kernel) into a new array index
530 2011-08-12 08:30:53 <Diablo-D3> and then renames all the future uses
531 2011-08-12 08:30:56 <iscalar> Damn blue screens ¬_¬
532 2011-08-12 08:31:07 <gjs278> I crashed my bitcoin because I xfsrestored into my / with old db files while bitcoind was running
533 2011-08-12 08:31:10 <Diablo-D3> including ZW, ZV, and Zt1 uses
534 2011-08-12 08:31:23 <lfm> UukGoblin: or maybe not
535 2011-08-12 08:31:23 <Diablo-D3> it also turns foo += into foo = foo +
536 2011-08-12 08:31:24 <gjs278> like I just dropped in day old blockchain crap and bitcoind exploded
537 2011-08-12 08:31:40 <Diablo-D3> so, thats 450 some assigns
538 2011-08-12 08:32:06 <UukGoblin> lfm, others: let me know if he needs a kick, I'm off to do some work
539 2011-08-12 08:32:15 <UukGoblin> (but I'll be checking PM occasionally)
540 2011-08-12 08:32:21 <Diablo-D3> then I wrote more code that counts the index of last mention of that unique assign
541 2011-08-12 08:32:46 <Diablo-D3> then I wrote more code that holds registers open if the last use of that register hasnt been last used yet
542 2011-08-12 08:32:51 <Giel> does anyone still use the builtin CPU miner in the bitcoin client?
543 2011-08-12 08:32:57 <Diablo-D3> Giel: no.
544 2011-08-12 08:33:11 <iscalar> A few people do, but only if their graphic card is practically ancient.
545 2011-08-12 08:33:16 <Diablo-D3> the part of the code that produces the 450 some assigns produces working code
546 2011-08-12 08:33:20 <Diablo-D3> I tested it in DM, it works
547 2011-08-12 08:33:21 <Giel> in that case I think that CPU miner should be ditched
548 2011-08-12 08:33:31 <iscalar> Mhash from cpu mining is like literally 1-5% of what a decent gpu could provide.
549 2011-08-12 08:33:31 <UukGoblin> iscalar, private messaging people randomly is very bad netiquette
550 2011-08-12 08:33:37 <Diablo-D3> Giel: Ive already recommended this multiple times
551 2011-08-12 08:33:41 <Giel> less code to contain bugs...
552 2011-08-12 08:33:42 <iscalar> I apologize Uuk, im kinda new to all of this.
553 2011-08-12 08:33:54 <Giel> Diablo-D3: what was the response ?
554 2011-08-12 08:33:58 <Diablo-D3> Giel: AND we have cpu miners that are more efficient
555 2011-08-12 08:34:03 <lfm> iscalar: not new enuf it seems
556 2011-08-12 08:34:04 <Diablo-D3> the response was nothing, since no one gives a fuck
557 2011-08-12 08:34:11 <iscalar> I dont want to cause a problem, thus why i put it in private, the discussion about the site is over and I wont bother you any more with it if your not interested in the pm.
558 2011-08-12 08:34:16 <Giel> Diablo-D3: ever submitted a patch/pull req?
559 2011-08-12 08:34:22 <Diablo-D3> Giel: I aint doing it
560 2011-08-12 08:34:27 <Diablo-D3> I already do enough for the bitcoin world
561 2011-08-12 08:34:31 <UukGoblin> iscalar, things wrong with your site, to state them again: 1. it has alignment problems, learn to use css properly, 2. it steals people's computing power without their knowledge or consent, 3. it displays a lot of ads
562 2011-08-12 08:34:37 <UukGoblin> now, I'm off
563 2011-08-12 08:34:56 <Giel> Diablo-D3: no problem, was just asking if I'd do duplicate work when *I* would submit such a patch...
564 2011-08-12 08:35:03 <iscalar> i dont get the whole lots of ads thing with only 2 ads, but thanks for answering me, ill fix said problems, thats all I asked.
565 2011-08-12 08:35:05 <Diablo-D3> submit the patch
566 2011-08-12 08:35:09 <Diablo-D3> it'll probably get merged
567 2011-08-12 08:35:20 <gjs278> I think patches like that have been submitted
568 2011-08-12 08:35:23 <Diablo-D3> okay so, back to my thing.... so, I looked at the register assignment numbers
569 2011-08-12 08:35:24 <gjs278> but they're afraid to remove
570 2011-08-12 08:35:25 <Diablo-D3> they look right
571 2011-08-12 08:35:51 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
572 2011-08-12 08:35:59 <Diablo-D3> so if they ARE right
573 2011-08-12 08:36:01 <iscalar> Oh people, genuine question, For nvidia graphic cards, CUDA is the more appropriate miner at the moment, correct?
574 2011-08-12 08:36:02 <Diablo-D3> holy damn.
575 2011-08-12 08:36:04 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
576 2011-08-12 08:36:08 traviscj_ has joined
577 2011-08-12 08:36:10 <Diablo-D3> iscalar: no, DiabloMiner is.
578 2011-08-12 08:36:25 <iscalar> No I mean, the TYPE of miner, not mining client.
579 2011-08-12 08:36:32 <iscalar> Cuda as compared to opencl
580 2011-08-12 08:36:34 <lfm> iscalar: for nvidia card, ati card are the more appropriate miner now.
581 2011-08-12 08:36:37 <gjs278> opencl will work on either
582 2011-08-12 08:36:38 <edcba> Diablo-D3: that seems a bit biased :)
583 2011-08-12 08:36:39 <Diablo-D3> diablominer is an opencl miner.
584 2011-08-12 08:36:51 <Diablo-D3> edcba: not really, there is one cuda miner, its slower than everything else.
585 2011-08-12 08:36:52 <iscalar> I know, I use ati, I have a person asking for support and I just wanted to check my facts =]
586 2011-08-12 08:37:16 <lfm> tell him to join this chat
587 2011-08-12 08:37:24 <gjs278> yeah this chat owns
588 2011-08-12 08:37:33 <iscalar> I use guiminer personally, lot more simple to set up, diablo miner sounds interesting though, got a link I could snoop out man? if its on par with GUI miner i'll gladly offer it as a alternative miner link on my stie ^-^
589 2011-08-12 08:37:43 <gjs278> sometimes when I google bitcoin problems, I see this channel log, and then I see myself talking
590 2011-08-12 08:37:52 <gjs278> and I'm talking like lines away from the problem I'm experiencing
591 2011-08-12 08:37:53 <iscalar> He's on the phone to me dude, hes one of my best friends :P
592 2011-08-12 08:37:57 <gjs278> if only I paid attention
593 2011-08-12 08:38:07 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: lol
594 2011-08-12 08:38:08 EPiSKiNG- has joined
595 2011-08-12 08:38:12 <iscalar> trying to get him set up with mining pools but he couldnt connect on opencl
596 2011-08-12 08:38:25 <lfm> iscalar: well does he know how to use irc?
597 2011-08-12 08:38:33 * Diablo-D3 tries the test with 32 registers
598 2011-08-12 08:38:54 <iscalar> I suppose he does, but he's got it working now, guiminer has a in built cuda miner
599 2011-08-12 08:39:03 <iscalar> only 40 mhash, which is sad cause his graphic cards awesome, just nvidia
600 2011-08-12 08:39:14 <iscalar> i mean i have a worse card and im only pulling in 200 =/
601 2011-08-12 08:39:15 <Diablo-D3> iscalar: yes, its that cuda miner, its crap
602 2011-08-12 08:39:17 <lfm> NVIDIA != AWSOME
603 2011-08-12 08:39:36 <lfm> dam caps lock
604 2011-08-12 08:39:43 <edcba> anyway there are already a lot of stats about cards in forum
605 2011-08-12 08:39:44 <iscalar> Nvidia's a good graphic card designer, just poopy when it comes to opencl support
606 2011-08-12 08:40:25 <lfm> not just opencl, ati kicks their ass even if they use their own cuda
607 2011-08-12 08:40:38 <iscalar> I know, thats why I use ati my self personally XD
608 2011-08-12 08:40:57 ThomasV has joined
609 2011-08-12 08:40:59 <iscalar> only a radeon HD 5700, but it does its job =]
610 2011-08-12 08:41:13 <gjs278> like a week before I found out about bitcoin I was joking wtih my friends on how I would never pay more than $100 for a graphics card
611 2011-08-12 08:41:58 <iscalar> Haha
612 2011-08-12 08:42:01 <lfm> so this friend of yours - is he just an imaginary freind so you can write more of our advice in your spammy web pages?
613 2011-08-12 08:42:30 <iscalar> Lfm, there is no need to be so hostile, i've just removed bit coin plus and the only ads remaining are 2 google ads which i use to keep the site running, what the hell is your problem
614 2011-08-12 08:42:40 <iscalar> and no, he's not imaginary actually, i'll get him on irc if need be
615 2011-08-12 08:43:46 <lfm> using you web page to try to do javascript mining for your own bitcoins on our computers is a slimey thing to do.
616 2011-08-12 08:44:37 <iscalar> Which is why i just removed the script
617 2011-08-12 08:44:38 <iscalar> go check
618 2011-08-12 08:44:41 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
619 2011-08-12 08:44:58 <iscalar> Im being serious abotu bettering the site, I was just lookign for ways to make it self sustainable, that one failed, and thus it's been removed, im not a bad guy man =/
620 2011-08-12 08:44:59 <gjs278> what if he checks and it's still cached there and he mines a block for you
621 2011-08-12 08:45:00 <lfm> You couldnt get me to go back yopu your site for 1000BTC
622 2011-08-12 08:45:43 <iscalar> Then don't, but the scripts removed and thats the end of it really, stop being so hostile please because all I've done is asked for advice, and actually listened to it, regardless of your repeated insults.
623 2011-08-12 08:46:13 <lfm> you earned my insults if you ask me.
624 2011-08-12 08:46:48 <iscalar> You know what, if you want to argue, take it to private, the public chat is not the place us to get heated with eachover as I'm sure you'll agree =/
625 2011-08-12 08:47:15 <lfm> yes, you dont want newbies seeing what a slimey type you are
626 2011-08-12 08:47:29 <iscalar> For christ sake im not slimey
627 2011-08-12 08:47:42 <iscalar> 2 ads on a site, all used with no profit to me, how the hell is that slimey.
628 2011-08-12 08:47:46 <lfm> I thot we already established that
629 2011-08-12 08:48:00 Rabbit67890 has joined
630 2011-08-12 08:48:12 EPiSKiNG- has joined
631 2011-08-12 08:48:23 <lfm> the bitcoin mining javascript was the slimey part. ads I could live with
632 2011-08-12 08:48:23 <iscalar> Ill query you if you wish to carry on, your the one whos starting an argument, i just want to sit here and talk about bc man, i said previously the site discussion was over and you braught it up again.
633 2011-08-12 08:48:40 <iscalar> The irony of it is when Uuk checks, he'll probably kick ME for this when your the one who braught it up again ¬_¬
634 2011-08-12 08:49:01 <lfm> aw, yes, very ironic
635 2011-08-12 08:51:13 <iscalar> You know what Lfm, im not a bad guy, im bending over backwards to make my site better for the user, I came here asking advice on how to do that, and your giving me crap for it, it's uncalled for plain and simple.
636 2011-08-12 08:51:13 <lfm> and uuk was the one who already told you once to gtfo
637 2011-08-12 08:51:32 <iscalar> Why, for asking for advice?
638 2011-08-12 08:51:40 <lfm> bending over backward to not look slimey as you are
639 2011-08-12 08:51:45 <iscalar> I even sent the link privately, so you cant claim i was trying to advertise or anything
640 2011-08-12 08:52:49 <iscalar> Anyway, away from here, private if you wish to talk to me, this discussion is for bit coin development, not arguments can we at least both be adults in THAT respect.
641 2011-08-12 08:52:59 <lfm> you came here looking for a link in the bitcoin wiki and complaining they repeatedly kicked you out.
642 2011-08-12 08:54:24 <iscalar> No O.o
643 2011-08-12 08:54:34 <iscalar> copy the chat log
644 2011-08-12 08:55:05 <iscalar> I said a USER removed my link claiming my guide didnt exist and my site was full of ads, I asked if any admin was here so they could check the site out and give me advice accordingly and see what they think, why am I the bad guy here.
645 2011-08-12 08:55:21 <iscalar> I mean i'm trying to take it to private to you, but your refusing to aknowledge that.
646 2011-08-12 08:55:23 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
647 2011-08-12 08:55:36 <gjs278> well
648 2011-08-12 08:55:38 <gjs278> if you're on a wiki
649 2011-08-12 08:55:44 <gjs278> the best thing to do is get into an edit war
650 2011-08-12 08:55:52 <lfm> you are right, I have no interest in taking it private. I want everyone to know what you did
651 2011-08-12 08:56:14 <iscalar> Then tell them the truth and copy the chat over.
652 2011-08-12 08:56:15 <gjs278> I did about 90 edits back and forth with a guy because he didn't want to list James Nintendo Nerd as a notable youtube celebrity
653 2011-08-12 08:56:18 <gjs278> fuck that guy
654 2011-08-12 08:56:27 <iscalar> lol gjs :34
655 2011-08-12 08:56:31 <iscalar> :3*
656 2011-08-12 08:57:18 nhodges has joined
657 2011-08-12 08:57:23 nhodges has quit (Excess Flood)
658 2011-08-12 08:57:49 nhodges has joined
659 2011-08-12 08:57:50 <iscalar> I mean, I even stopped talking about my siet and asked a general mining question, and you STILL tried to argue. With a non profit website, now with no bitcoin miner (which uuk obviously didnt realise WAS reffered to on the webpage) with literally 2 advertisements on it (small ones too), I hardly see how I'm "slimy" especially when i come on asking for advice to make it better for users, in fact thats the opposite of slimy
660 2011-08-12 08:58:09 <lfm> oh his site is www.iscyspace.com and if you want to get hacked, you can check it out.
661 2011-08-12 08:58:38 <iscalar> oh yeah, it'll ultra hack your computer and steal all your money as well as bang your girlfriend and shoot your dog, it's THAT evil!
662 2011-08-12 09:00:02 <iscalar> or wait, it's literally a site with 2 ads that used bit coin plus (with notice to the player and a start/stop button, as well as a half share if the user registered their bit coin account) with a guide on how to start mining.
663 2011-08-12 09:00:11 <lfm> well, I am glad I don't have a dog!
664 2011-08-12 09:00:46 asher^ has joined
665 2011-08-12 09:00:49 d1g1t4l has joined
666 2011-08-12 09:00:59 <UukGoblin> it starts stealing my CPU power and then has a button somewhere that I need to read up about to click to disable it? dude
667 2011-08-12 09:01:14 <iscalar> Uuk
668 2011-08-12 09:01:16 <iscalar> I removed it
669 2011-08-12 09:01:27 <iscalar> like
670 2011-08-12 09:01:38 <iscalar> the second you said it wasnt really ethical (or implied even)
671 2011-08-12 09:01:44 <UukGoblin> ok
672 2011-08-12 09:01:50 <lfm> like it is much better hidden now, you wont find it
673 2011-08-12 09:02:05 <iscalar> yeah, because it doesnt exist for christ sake.
674 2011-08-12 09:02:27 <UukGoblin> well, I'd recommend a good xhtml/css course to you, but I don't know any as I don't like web design
675 2011-08-12 09:02:50 <UukGoblin> don't like doing web design, that is
676 2011-08-12 09:02:56 NorthLite has quit (Quit: leaving)
677 2011-08-12 09:03:02 <iscalar> Uuk, please, I dont want to make a scene, in fact i've been trying to do the opposite, lfm braught the argument up again when I asked a completely unrelated question, if you have the time, can I quickly talk to you in private please? if your to busy then I guess I can leave it but, I just dont like to be made out to be some scamming con artist here when im not =[
678 2011-08-12 09:03:31 <iscalar> And yeah, The css is fine on google chrome and firefox 5, but its hand written so its buggy as hell, I could do with a course >_<
679 2011-08-12 09:04:21 <UukGoblin> nope, I don't have time to test your site, sorry
680 2011-08-12 09:04:32 <iscalar> ... this is exactly what im talking about
681 2011-08-12 09:04:37 <iscalar> Thats not what I was going to ask you
682 2011-08-12 09:04:49 <iscalar> and you wouldn't even give me 5 seconds to even explain what was up =/
683 2011-08-12 09:04:56 toffoo has quit ()
684 2011-08-12 09:06:15 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * rd79f9a9 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Minor fixes. - http://bit.ly/pPQTYF https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui/commit/d79f9a9a6f54cc1c18de42f0c91244cbce140967
685 2011-08-12 09:06:16 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r61fdf5b / scripts/bitcoinjs-lib : Updated bitcoinjs-lib. - http://bit.ly/pjsXqD https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui/commit/61fdf5bb0dec5555a2260dd37492fdf63470bcc8
686 2011-08-12 09:06:16 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r5c211a2 / (12 files in 5 dirs): General updates and debugging. - http://bit.ly/oO0tFp https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui/commit/5c211a2d20fc309c5a58cd7b1dbe710d08aa81be
687 2011-08-12 09:06:16 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r036794a / (34 files in 13 dirs): Moved third party scripts to scripts/vendor. - http://bit.ly/nq7C6d https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui/commit/036794ac064adf5c4e23eca013ca2927f0613a2c
688 2011-08-12 09:06:17 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r47ac295 / (index.html scripts/index.js): More minor/cosmetic fixes. - http://bit.ly/qrlFNI https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui/commit/47ac29514c9a2aabc06bffb37909a69f4587a72b
689 2011-08-12 09:07:14 <iscalar> See, theres 4 advertisements there, and thats in the very chat your condemming me for having 2 ads in ¬_¬
690 2011-08-12 09:08:48 <iscalar> You know what, screw it, it's obvious you guys are ignorant and childish enough as it is and any form of civilised conversation with you is as useful as a discussion on the philosophical probabilties of unified conciousness, with a fish.
691 2011-08-12 09:11:37 <iscalar> I come here asking for advice and you guys act like im the freaking anti christ or something, I've helped thousands of people get into bit coin mining, free, offer support, free, and spend my bit coins on charity, iscyspace, or my hidden little passion, minecraft, what have YOU done for the bitcoin community LFM, you fucking low life white trash piece of junk, and Uuk, I'd have expected more maturity from you, but you genuinely ga
692 2011-08-12 09:11:45 <vegard> hi
693 2011-08-12 09:11:52 <iscalar> r, so, thanks, and at the same time, go screw your self, have a nice day.
694 2011-08-12 09:17:34 AStove has joined
695 2011-08-12 09:17:54 <iscalar> Welcome AStove
696 2011-08-12 09:18:06 <AStove> Hi..
697 2011-08-12 09:19:14 <vegard> iscalar: where are the 4 advertisements?
698 2011-08-12 09:20:09 erus` has joined
699 2011-08-12 09:20:32 <vegard> and your rant got chopped off. what I see is this: "[...] but you genuinely ga" <next line> "r, so thanks, and at the same time, go screw your self, have a nice day."
700 2011-08-12 09:20:43 <iscalar> bit.ly links, mistakenly thought they were similiar to link bucks links, I apologise.
701 2011-08-12 09:20:46 <iscalar> Aah, I see.
702 2011-08-12 09:20:54 <iscalar> e me little bits of advice, albeit in a conceited, horrid and sarcastic manne is what your missing.
703 2011-08-12 09:21:19 henchan has joined
704 2011-08-12 09:21:44 <vegard> did you try the w3 validators for html and css?
705 2011-08-12 09:22:12 <vegard> I think they are really useful.
706 2011-08-12 09:22:22 <iscalar> But yeah, basically the sitch is I came on here asking for advice on how to make my site better for bit coin users, asking if someone could check it (link shared over private convo, then LFM put it in public) and see if they think so I could approve it accoridngly. They then started ranting because theres 2 google ads and a bitcoinplus ap, the latter of which has been removed and the first of which is used to pay for the site upke
707 2011-08-12 09:22:31 <iscalar> But no I havn't, have you got a link I could use, that sounds really helpful, thankyou ^-^
708 2011-08-12 09:22:58 <vegard> "[...] which is used to pay for the site upke" <end of line>
709 2011-08-12 09:23:37 <iscalar> ep ¬_¬ [10:16] <iscalar> But no I havn't, have you got a link I could use, that sounds really helpful, thankyou ^-^
710 2011-08-12 09:23:50 <vegard> I got that one :)
711 2011-08-12 09:23:55 <iscalar> Aah, awesome ^-^
712 2011-08-12 09:24:33 <iscalar> But yeah I mean, they acting hostile so I even said lets not talk about it any more, asked a completely unrelated question to do with mining, then LFM was like OMG is that so you can put more info on your spammy website!, like, wtf ¬_¬ moron he is, he is moron.
713 2011-08-12 09:24:55 <iscalar> But yeah, this w3 validator sounds cool ^-^
714 2011-08-12 09:25:08 <vegard> did you find it?
715 2011-08-12 09:25:19 <iscalar> I need to learn css better, it works great with google chrome, okayish with IE, and poop with Firefox pre the most recent link.
716 2011-08-12 09:25:30 <iscalar> No I'll google for w3 validator now =]
717 2011-08-12 09:25:34 <vegard> well, the reason they were acting hostile is that you put a bitcoin js miner on the site
718 2011-08-12 09:25:52 <vegard> it comes across as dishonest
719 2011-08-12 09:25:53 <edcba> js miner lol
720 2011-08-12 09:26:13 <vegard> they probably thought you were trolling them
721 2011-08-12 09:26:13 <iscalar> Well they were hostile before they even knew about that.
722 2011-08-12 09:26:14 <edcba> won't get many bitcoins from that
723 2011-08-12 09:26:18 <edcba> unless you are called google
724 2011-08-12 09:26:21 <iscalar> I know, thus why its removed.
725 2011-08-12 09:26:53 <iscalar> Plus the fact that it was stated openly on the webpage that there was a js miner there =/
726 2011-08-12 09:27:00 <iscalar> and a button to stop it, that wasnt really hidden.
727 2011-08-12 09:27:50 <iscalar> But meh, its fully removed now, I just want to run a simple site for people to learn mining from, seems like everyone is against that simply because of 2 google adsense ads that I use to pay for said site >_< according to them 2 small ads counts as a spam advertisement site, but meh, theres no arguing with ignorance like.
728 2011-08-12 09:29:01 <iscalar> Hey that w3 validators awesome O.o cheers dude
729 2011-08-12 09:29:36 <vegard> why not make it 1 ad?
730 2011-08-12 09:30:15 <iscalar> Well it was, for a good month, the second ones just a small one next to the page, just wasn't making enoguh money to accomodate 60 hits a month >_<
731 2011-08-12 09:30:29 <iscalar> I mean its still being payed out of my pocket, i cant even take any adsense money till it hits 60 pound
732 2011-08-12 09:30:37 <iscalar> and after 2 months, im at about 20 so, long way to go XD
733 2011-08-12 09:31:06 <iscalar> I mean its a non profit website, no pop ups or anything, with ads that fit the colour scheme, I just dont get why people get so up in arms about it.
734 2011-08-12 09:32:29 <edcba> 20 pounds in 2 months ?
735 2011-08-12 09:32:36 <edcba> with a shitty site like that ?
736 2011-08-12 09:32:44 <Giel> edcba: 20 stone ;-)
737 2011-08-12 09:32:49 <iscalar> have you even SEEn the site edcba ¬_¬
738 2011-08-12 09:32:54 <Giel> or kg...
739 2011-08-12 09:33:10 <edcba> yes
740 2011-08-12 09:33:11 <iscalar> and yes, but I can't even take it out till it hits 60, which is obviously a long way away XD
741 2011-08-12 09:33:21 <edcba> the thing with css all wrond
742 2011-08-12 09:33:22 <edcba> wrong
743 2011-08-12 09:33:28 <iscalar> and even if i did take it out, id just buy a year or twos hosting with it.
744 2011-08-12 09:33:42 <vegard> but you're not supposed to make money on websites
745 2011-08-12 09:33:46 <edcba> and with more legal thing than informating
746 2011-08-12 09:33:47 <iscalar> Mind if I ask what browser you use edcba?
747 2011-08-12 09:33:48 <edcba> information
748 2011-08-12 09:33:52 <edcba> opera
749 2011-08-12 09:34:06 <edcba> without js enabled :)
750 2011-08-12 09:34:16 <iscalar> I make money from pay per click ads, so far no moneys touched my pocket, google still has it all, probably will do for 3-4 months, and then it wil lliterally just pay for some more upkeep.
751 2011-08-12 09:34:29 <iscalar> hmm, well the only JS on it atm is the google ads i believe
752 2011-08-12 09:34:56 <iscalar> but i realise the css is messed up, i just dont really know css so not sure what to do >_< had to get my friend help me code it, and hes as amateur as the most so, you can see were that got me lol
753 2011-08-12 09:36:48 <iscalar> Opera, hmm, never thought about that one, you on a mobile device or something? or just generally use opera? =] had nice experiences with it on mobile aps my self, tis a handy little browser
754 2011-08-12 09:36:51 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
755 2011-08-12 09:37:29 <iscalar> w3 validator found no errors in the css O.o wth
756 2011-08-12 09:37:34 Daniel0108 has joined
757 2011-08-12 09:38:02 <eps> it can be valid css and not look very nice
758 2011-08-12 09:38:10 datagutt has joined
759 2011-08-12 09:38:24 <eps> but really css isn't that hard
760 2011-08-12 09:38:36 <eps> if you are really struggling try a css framework
761 2011-08-12 09:39:15 <eps> they usually have had time spent on them to support all the browsers
762 2011-08-12 09:39:57 <vegard> iscalar: why don't you just put your tutorial on the bitcoin wiki?
763 2011-08-12 09:40:07 <iscalar> Hmm, its not that, when i use chrome it works great, when I use IE it works fine apart from the background colour being a different shade (bit random I know), but firefox users seem to be getting quite a lot of formatting errors, makes the page look really messed up.
764 2011-08-12 09:40:46 <iscalar> Because I'm not gonna lie vegard, im proud of my site, I mean, if I make no money from it and i'm helping people, I like the idea of people deliberately coming to my site to learn how to mine, makes me happy and gives me something to do as a hobby, which Im certain you could understand.
765 2011-08-12 09:41:20 <vegard> you can be proud of the tutorial that you put on the bitcoin wiki and you'd be helping people
766 2011-08-12 09:41:20 abragin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
767 2011-08-12 09:42:49 <iscalar> But I'm helping people and can say yay i have a website that gets 60k hits, and have more direct imput to it, im planning of making it a full on guide site with chat, common problems, support, bit coin mining news, graphic card comparisons, etc etc, it's just in its infancy stages at the moment.
768 2011-08-12 09:42:57 <vegard> in a sense you're asking to be featured on the bitcoin wiki without paying for it -- and then you're making money by displaying ads on your own website
769 2011-08-12 09:43:10 abragin has joined
770 2011-08-12 09:43:11 abragin has quit (Changing host)
771 2011-08-12 09:43:11 abragin has joined
772 2011-08-12 09:43:21 <iscalar> I mean ti was going fine until a user (not staff) removed it from the wiki saying the guide didnt exist . . . which was odd because the guides quite blatently there on the front page.
773 2011-08-12 09:43:56 <iscalar> Well thats the point though, im not making money from it.
774 2011-08-12 09:44:06 <iscalar> its non profit
775 2011-08-12 09:44:22 <iscalar> its literally to keep the site upkeep, and so far, not a single pennys actually been put in my bank accoutn from it
776 2011-08-12 09:44:33 <iscalar> nor a bit cent, cause the bitcoinplus ap is a bit rubbish really
777 2011-08-12 09:45:05 <eps> javascript mining can't compete with GPU miners?, say it aint so!
778 2011-08-12 09:45:20 <iscalar> I mean, I spent the time to make the guide get the links design the site and pay a monthly fee to keep it up, surely you can agree that 2 google ads is a fair trade off for that, they only make money if they interest people anyway.
779 2011-08-12 09:45:30 <iscalar> I know right eps XD thus why its removed now, bitcoinplus sucks
780 2011-08-12 09:47:04 <iscalar> plus the money just means i dont have to pay the monthly fee for a while, it's not exactly unreasonable in my eyes, honestly speaking do you think its unreasonable?
781 2011-08-12 09:47:41 <vegard> if you put your tutorial on the bitcoin wiki, the users wouldn't need to see any ads at all
782 2011-08-12 09:47:44 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
783 2011-08-12 09:47:57 <vegard> which is clearly better for the users.
784 2011-08-12 09:48:13 <iscalar> yes, but then my hobby basically dissapears and I cant update the website to make it what its supposed to be, as I want it to be a hell of a lot more than a simple guide
785 2011-08-12 09:48:28 <vegard> you can still work on your website.
786 2011-08-12 09:48:32 <iscalar> I want it to be a full on mining discussion and support website, as i said, its just in its infancy stages atm.
787 2011-08-12 09:48:46 <vegard> nothing is preventing you from working on your website
788 2011-08-12 09:48:48 molecular has joined
789 2011-08-12 09:48:55 <eps> you could have the guide on both your site and the wiki
790 2011-08-12 09:49:17 <eps> there problem solved
791 2011-08-12 09:49:26 <iscalar> But then i'd basically have a site thats usefless cause all the info to the dot would be on the site i get my traffic from O.o
792 2011-08-12 09:49:37 <eps> now to tackle the perpetual motion machine
793 2011-08-12 09:49:48 <iscalar> It must invovle magnets
794 2011-08-12 09:49:49 <iscalar> :P
795 2011-08-12 09:50:11 <iscalar> Aah thermodynamics, how I hated you in university so much
796 2011-08-12 09:53:18 <iscalar> I mean i get about 98% of my traffic from the wiki, surely you guys could understand that I take pride in my site, it doesnt cause any problems to anyone, and its not like people seeing 2 ads is gonna ruin the experience for them or anything, personally i dont understand what the big deal is, i dont make money from it, nor do i plan to, nor do i want to really, I have a job that does that for me, its just a hobby, and I like my ho
797 2011-08-12 09:53:50 <iscalar> when for 1 click everyone's happy, plus i'd have to make a common problem pages on the wiki and offer my email for support over there, otherwise it wouldnt really be the full thing >_<
798 2011-08-12 09:54:05 <vegard> "[...] and I like my ho" <end of line> "when for 1 click [...]"
799 2011-08-12 09:55:04 <vegard> by the way, I also have a bitcoin-related hobby website that is in its infancy stage :)
800 2011-08-12 09:55:43 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
801 2011-08-12 09:56:45 <iscalar> bby, but what good is it if im only getting a couple of hundred people a month when i take pride in helping thousands set up their miner.
802 2011-08-12 09:57:46 <iscalar> I mean like, it makes no difference to people were they learn it, as long as its easy to follow and access, I like having the recognition for showing people how to do it, iscyspace lets me get that via reputation for the site, if its simply on the wiki nobody will know that it's me who's helped them and it makes my contribution feel worthless, albeit its simplicity i did put a lot of time behind it.
803 2011-08-12 09:58:35 <vegard> you want fame and glory.
804 2011-08-12 09:58:36 <iscalar> well, not worthless per se, it does help people, just I like the recognition for helping them im not going to lie, and to be honest, im not ashamed of that =]
805 2011-08-12 09:58:46 <iscalar> Fame and glory XD not really.
806 2011-08-12 09:58:52 <iscalar> I just want people to know its me who's helped them
807 2011-08-12 09:59:00 <iscalar> not to be some bit shit in the bit coin community or something
808 2011-08-12 10:00:41 <iscalar> I just like the ring of people saying "oh you wanna learn to mine bit coins? I know a pretty cool site for that", because the guides offered else were are so technical and un-user friendly, I want people to know that I realised that there was a need for a simpler guide, so I gave them it, just because its not hosted on the wiki doesnt necassarily make it bad, nor does making it accessable from the wiki make it bad either,
809 2011-08-12 10:01:13 <iscalar> I mean my largest "ad" on the site (which i dont make money from because its a link i made my self) is for the bit coin wiki, thats what I do to repay them for the traffic. which i think is fair to be honest.
810 2011-08-12 10:02:05 <vegard> you need to start typing shorter lines
811 2011-08-12 10:02:09 <vegard> half of them get chopped off
812 2011-08-12 10:02:14 <iscalar> Yeah, bad habit of mine, I know >_<
813 2011-08-12 10:02:51 <vegard> "[...] nor does making it accessable from the wiki make it bad either," <end of line> "I mean my largest [...]"
814 2011-08-12 10:02:58 <iscalar> Basically, all im really saying is, ive gone through the time and effort to make all of this, why should I release it anonymously like its shameful to do otherwise, theres guides on the wiki, their just way to technical for some people.
815 2011-08-12 10:03:02 <iscalar> kk ill copy now hang on
816 2011-08-12 10:03:04 <gjs278> wow
817 2011-08-12 10:03:09 <gjs278> I leave to go watch king of the hill for an hour
818 2011-08-12 10:03:12 <gjs278> and this is still going on
819 2011-08-12 10:03:35 <iscalar> "ad" on the site (which i dont make money from because its a link i made my self) is for the bit coin wiki, thats what I do to repay them for the traffic. which i think is fair to be honest.
820 2011-08-12 10:03:52 <iscalar> Oh no, were not arguing, were literally just discussing now, vegards a pretty cool guy
821 2011-08-12 10:04:01 <iscalar> helpful too ^-^
822 2011-08-12 10:04:06 <iscalar> shame ircs dont have a rep system XD
823 2011-08-12 10:05:16 <lfm> well they do, kinda, informally
824 2011-08-12 10:05:32 copumpkin has joined
825 2011-08-12 10:05:33 copumpkin has quit (Changing host)
826 2011-08-12 10:05:33 copumpkin has joined
827 2011-08-12 10:05:49 <iscalar> Reputation between people in general, or an actual system lfm O.o ?
828 2011-08-12 10:05:59 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
829 2011-08-12 10:06:03 noagendamarket has joined
830 2011-08-12 10:06:10 <edcba> i don't see how that could work
831 2011-08-12 10:06:20 <edcba> rep is different from person to person
832 2011-08-12 10:06:29 <iscalar> I know right, thats what im thinking.
833 2011-08-12 10:07:00 <lfm> edcba: he'd like it cuz then he could game it.
834 2011-08-12 10:07:04 <iscalar> So if theres a system for it, i'll gladly rep veg, his comments are thoughtful and actually make me think, also has given me a few ideas for the site to make it a bit nicer for people, plus that w3 validator rocks.
835 2011-08-12 10:07:15 <iscalar> ¬_¬ Sigh, Lfm, child.
836 2011-08-12 10:07:32 <lfm> hehe
837 2011-08-12 10:08:06 <iscalar> randomly out of context, how did you guys find out about bit coin? just randomly or?
838 2011-08-12 10:08:19 <lfm> /.
839 2011-08-12 10:08:27 <edcba> /.
840 2011-08-12 10:08:33 <iscalar> /, . . . ?
841 2011-08-12 10:08:43 <iscalar> / . even lol, fail.
842 2011-08-12 10:08:48 <iscalar> ¬_¬ fail harder, nvm.
843 2011-08-12 10:09:11 <edcba> slashdot
844 2011-08-12 10:09:23 * phedny_ was pointed to Bitcoin on a conference when I was looking for cryptocurrencies
845 2011-08-12 10:09:39 <iscalar> Ooh, of course.
846 2011-08-12 10:09:55 <iscalar> Cool, cryptocurrency searching, nice phedny =]
847 2011-08-12 10:10:22 <iscalar> I found a minecraft site that accepted server hosting through bit coins, im a fanatic whos been playing since 09 so, peaked my interest :3
848 2011-08-12 10:10:28 <phedny_> iscalar: well, I've learned Chaum double-spending prevention in a lecture and I was looking for related stuff to work on in a Master thesis :)
849 2011-08-12 10:10:50 MobiusL_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
850 2011-08-12 10:10:54 <shadders> luke-jr: Diablo-D3: anyone-else: anyone can tell me if noncerange is in common use atm?
851 2011-08-12 10:10:55 <eps> i wish bitcoin had been around 10 years ago when i was at uni
852 2011-08-12 10:11:18 <eps> would have been fascinating to have the time to study it in great detail
853 2011-08-12 10:11:21 <iscalar> That sounds really interesting, I was thinking of writing a paper in general about the uses of a currency system without a central administration, or in this case, server.
854 2011-08-12 10:11:37 <phedny_> eps: if you really want to, wouldn't you be able to make time to study it?
855 2011-08-12 10:11:40 <iscalar> I know right, makes you think what the future holds.
856 2011-08-12 10:11:54 <lfm> shadders: I dont think so
857 2011-08-12 10:12:24 <iscalar> So Phedny, what do you study in uni bro?
858 2011-08-12 10:12:30 <shadders> is it waiting for miner implementation or is it not even implemented in pushpool yet?
859 2011-08-12 10:12:39 <phedny_> iscalar: I'm doing an information security Master
860 2011-08-12 10:12:45 <eps> phedny_: i have a lot of things i would like to do if i had the time
861 2011-08-12 10:13:03 <lfm> shadders: I think the pools have gone beyond it
862 2011-08-12 10:13:04 <UukGoblin> phedny_, cool, what's "Chaum" double spending?
863 2011-08-12 10:13:06 henchan has left ()
864 2011-08-12 10:13:17 <iscalar> Sounds very cool phedny ^-^
865 2011-08-12 10:13:17 <UukGoblin> phedny_, is it like the bitcoin blockchain, or something different?
866 2011-08-12 10:13:37 <shadders> lfm: what you mean 'gone beyond it'? Worked something better?
867 2011-08-12 10:13:49 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
868 2011-08-12 10:13:53 <phedny_> UukGoblin: it's a cryptocurrency with a central issuer, such that it guarantees anynomity, unless you double spend a coin
869 2011-08-12 10:13:55 fakap has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
870 2011-08-12 10:14:02 <shadders> *worked out something better
871 2011-08-12 10:14:18 <phedny_> UukGoblin: a fresh coin (obtained by a consumer) can only be spent once, offline, to a merchant, which must return it to the issuer
872 2011-08-12 10:14:21 <iscalar> AAW WHAT THE FECK
873 2011-08-12 10:14:23 <lfm> shadders: ys noncerange would actually increase the load on the pool servers I think, they prefer measures which reduce the load
874 2011-08-12 10:14:32 <iscalar> Rioters just destroyed my local pub ¬_¬ freaking england.
875 2011-08-12 10:14:55 <UukGoblin> phedny_, interesting...
876 2011-08-12 10:15:01 <lfm> shadders: stuff like the extra nonce and multiple payout addresses
877 2011-08-12 10:15:02 <phedny_> UukGoblin: if you want I can look up references for you
878 2011-08-12 10:15:33 <UukGoblin> phedny_, something introductory would be cool... ;-) wikipedia unfortunately doesn't seem to have an article on that in particular
879 2011-08-12 10:15:38 <shadders> extranonce would increase load on bitcoind and reduce it for poolserver...
880 2011-08-12 10:15:53 <iscalar> So Phedny, what other type of cryptocurrencies are widely used, or would you say bitcoin is unique in that aspect?
881 2011-08-12 10:16:11 bitcoinbulletin has joined
882 2011-08-12 10:16:19 <shadders> extra nonce... not sure... if large chunks of range are unused it would save a lot of back and forth between pool and daemon
883 2011-08-12 10:16:32 <lfm> shadders: I think they bypass bitcoind for extranonce tracking
884 2011-08-12 10:16:58 <shadders> they can't unless they're generating work inside pushpool...
885 2011-08-12 10:17:08 <lfm> shadders: right
886 2011-08-12 10:17:14 MobiusL has joined
887 2011-08-12 10:17:17 <phedny_> iscalar: Bitcoin is rather unique .. as far as I can tell it's the only solution that is fully decentralized, has been implemented and gained a respectable level of acceptance
888 2011-08-12 10:17:19 <shadders> extranonce change requires regenerating merkle root doesn't it?
889 2011-08-12 10:17:28 <lfm> shadders: yup
890 2011-08-12 10:17:53 <shadders> so pushpool is generating work internally now?
891 2011-08-12 10:18:20 <lfm> shadders: not sure really but thats the direction it needs to go
892 2011-08-12 10:18:25 <iscalar> Phedny_: Aah I see, secondarily, what do you feel is the reason that bit coin has been rapidly losing value recently, dropping from 15$+ to less than half of that in the space of a month, is this a regular occurance, or is something happening im unaware of, im not good with economics >_<
893 2011-08-12 10:19:07 <lfm> value dropped from nearly $30
894 2011-08-12 10:19:20 <iscalar> Wow, but why =/ whats causing it
895 2011-08-12 10:19:42 <iscalar> or more, the main problem, because obviously you dont want to explain the fundamentals of economics to me XD
896 2011-08-12 10:20:02 <lfm> if we knew we'd prolly keep it to ourselves cuz it would be worth a lot
897 2011-08-12 10:20:18 <phedny_> iscalar: I'm not an economics guy too, but I suspect that it's largely due to some media coverage of some large failures (mtgox drop, mybitcoin, bitomat), combined with the fact that there is virtually no economy and the current value is all based on speculation, so people may be leaving Bitcoin for what it is and stepping out to find riches elsewhere
898 2011-08-12 10:20:51 <shadders> lfm: can
899 2011-08-12 10:20:55 <iscalar> That's quite a shame, I understand regarding the mybitcoin and mtgox drop though, that was a true shame.
900 2011-08-12 10:21:11 <shadders> lfm: can't see it happening in a hurry.... that's a whole can of worms
901 2011-08-12 10:21:16 <shadders> stinky dead worms
902 2011-08-12 10:21:49 <lfm> shadders: hehe, ya, a lot of people say that when they look too close at the bitcoin code
903 2011-08-12 10:21:54 <eps> i think a drop as long as it is relatively stable is a good thing for bitcoin
904 2011-08-12 10:22:03 <eps> i am in this for the long haul
905 2011-08-12 10:22:09 <iscalar> As am I
906 2011-08-12 10:22:37 <iscalar> its just irritating because it makes our bit coin wallet worth less, also quite irritating that i was stupid enough to buy 10 bit coins while they were still 15$ plus
907 2011-08-12 10:22:47 <lfm> ya I found it interesting that it actually dropped so smoothly spread over a couple months. I kinda expected it to crash real hard
908 2011-08-12 10:23:17 <phedny_> UukGoblin: the lecture notes have two references: David Chaum, Blind SIgnatures for Untraceable Payments, in: Advances in Cryptology - CRYPTO '92, Plenum Press, New York, 1983, pp. 199--203 and Berry Schoenmkers, Basic Security of the ecash TM Payment System, in B. Preneel and V. Rijmen, State of the Art in Applied Cryptography: Course on Computer Security and Industrial Cryptography, Leuven, Belgium, June 1997. Revised Lectures, LNCS 1528, Spri
909 2011-08-12 10:24:20 <eps> i think if bitcoin takes off in a mainstream way, it won't be through commerce, it will be as a competitor to low end money transfer services like western union
910 2011-08-12 10:24:49 <eps> but this requires the third world to have the necessary internet infrastructure
911 2011-08-12 10:25:21 <lfm> eps oh Im sure nigeria is looking real close at bitcoin already for money transfer
912 2011-08-12 10:25:24 <phedny_> lfm: well.. a smooth drop might indicate some early adopter cashing out over a longer period of time.. which in the end will be good, since it distributes coins over a larger amount of people .. but that's just a theory I have
913 2011-08-12 10:25:37 <eps> basically I think the adoption of bitcoin is closely linked to the availability of computers, networks and bandwith in developing countries
914 2011-08-12 10:25:48 <iscalar> Hmm, Thats a interesting ideal, but i personally believe that the media will stop that from happening, i mean all they have to do is run a story on the uses for things like silk road or child porn trading over tor and the assosiated bad press would cripple bit coin or at least temporarily stop its growth.
915 2011-08-12 10:26:04 <iscalar> Ooh, I agree with that last comment though eps.
916 2011-08-12 10:26:28 <phedny_> I know in some African countries mobile payments are actually mainstream
917 2011-08-12 10:26:36 <phedny_> people don't ahve computers, but do have mobile phones
918 2011-08-12 10:26:42 <phedny_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa
919 2011-08-12 10:27:46 <iscalar> Hmm, I think the next step bit coin needs to take is to try to improve the methods and ways it can be accessed, Smart phones being a key example, I realise theres a bit coin app for I phone, is there one for android at the moment?
920 2011-08-12 10:28:28 <phedny_> some software that works with non-smart phones would be great for deployment in Africa
921 2011-08-12 10:28:46 <iscalar> Agreed, definently something worth looking into for a development plan.
922 2011-08-12 10:28:53 <phedny_> now, if just one or a couple of African countries adopt it as their main payment system, it'll be unstoppable
923 2011-08-12 10:28:57 <lfm> basicly could just be a bank web site
924 2011-08-12 10:28:57 <iscalar> Sms possibly?
925 2011-08-12 10:29:26 <phedny_> African government are already used to not controlling the currency, since they mostly rely on USD already
926 2011-08-12 10:30:00 <lfm> ya, like I said, Nigerians
927 2011-08-12 10:30:18 <iscalar> Well its a universal currency, what they need to do is give it a steady value before people properly taking it seriously, giving a clear example what 1 bit coin is worth because at the moment the rapid inflation or deflation of bit coin value probably puts a lot of people off using it.
928 2011-08-12 10:31:04 <phedny_> iscalar: once BTC becomes mainstream anywhere, demand will rise and therefore the price, you cannot prevent that in any way
929 2011-08-12 10:31:12 <iscalar> As well as increasing security on things such as the wallet file and fixing double spending issues.
930 2011-08-12 10:31:22 BlueMatt has joined
931 2011-08-12 10:31:33 <iscalar> Of course but to get it mainstream it has to be a bit more stable in the short term.
932 2011-08-12 10:31:34 <lfm> fixing double spending issues???
933 2011-08-12 10:31:58 RBecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me. You love me so much, and I never want to let it go. You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
934 2011-08-12 10:32:10 <iscalar> O.o
935 2011-08-12 10:32:34 <iscalar> you can still double spend in certain circumstances I believe.
936 2011-08-12 10:32:40 <iscalar> I may be wrong, as I said, im new to all of this XD
937 2011-08-12 10:32:41 <phedny_> also, I learned in African countries mobile airtime minutes are a medium of exchange across national borders, because that's easier transfered compared to paper currency
938 2011-08-12 10:32:49 <iscalar> This discussion is heavily interesting though =].
939 2011-08-12 10:33:03 <iscalar> Interesting
940 2011-08-12 10:33:06 <phedny_> just maybe, Africa may be the key to Bitcoin adoption
941 2011-08-12 10:33:07 RBecker has joined
942 2011-08-12 10:33:10 <lfm> iscaler good luck with that. maybe if someone is accepting payment without confirmation(s)
943 2011-08-12 10:33:41 testx0r has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
944 2011-08-12 10:33:42 <iscalar> If 1 BC could be arbitraily traded for a set amount of a singular item, prices would regulate around the value of the item in question, of course to do that would cost a lot of money though.
945 2011-08-12 10:33:59 <iscalar> I think you may be right on that one phendny
946 2011-08-12 10:34:25 <iscalar> Lfm, I dont double spend, nor do I try, so hush
947 2011-08-12 10:34:33 <Eliel> iscalar: who is this "they" who need to give bitcoin a steady value? :P
948 2011-08-12 10:34:44 <lfm> phedny_: ya, more 419 offers using bitcoins could really put it over the top
949 2011-08-12 10:36:05 <eps> bitcoins value will always fluctuate, will never be stable over the long term
950 2011-08-12 10:36:08 <iscalar> They is reffering to owners of key exchange sites mainly, as Im fully aware of how bit coin is decentralized.
951 2011-08-12 10:36:28 <eps> but i heard the ruxum exchange is planning to allow futures and short selling
952 2011-08-12 10:36:30 <iscalar> Of course, but theres a degree of stability that is necassary for mainstream acceptance usually.
953 2011-08-12 10:36:43 <iscalar> Because otherwise it will just be treated like a stock market
954 2011-08-12 10:36:48 <iscalar> instead of a currency
955 2011-08-12 10:36:56 <Eliel> sorry, no, there are no single people who can control the value.
956 2011-08-12 10:37:00 <eps> such things could allow for users to use bitcoin and be certain about it's value in a month or so
957 2011-08-12 10:37:03 <lfm> most currencies actually float these days
958 2011-08-12 10:37:10 <Eliel> maybe for a while, if they've got enough money
959 2011-08-12 10:37:19 <Eliel> but they'll run out soon enough
960 2011-08-12 10:37:39 <iscalar> I know Eliel, what im saying is if people could offer a certain good for direct trade of a single bit coin, prices would begin to regular aroudn the value of the item if it was something we all used.
961 2011-08-12 10:37:45 <Eliel> yes, it's not so long ago when dollar was about equal to euro
962 2011-08-12 10:38:19 <Eliel> and now, it's more like 3 dollars for 2 euros
963 2011-08-12 10:38:30 <iscalar> it would require a mass co-ordinated effort by most major bit coin exchanges though, which is a statiscal improbability and therefore just yet another fantasy of mine.
964 2011-08-12 10:39:32 <iscalar> I remember when the dollar hit near exactly half of the sterling
965 2011-08-12 10:39:36 <Eliel> iscalar: the problem isn't that people are valuing it lower or higher. The problem is that the number of people buying/selling are fluctuating.
966 2011-08-12 10:40:52 <iscalar> Aah I see, I don't have a large grasp on economics, that seems to make sense, I think the developers need to increase security methods on the wallet file and fix the issue of bit coin stealing trojans at the moment, as people need a bit more confidence in the security of their money.
967 2011-08-12 10:40:53 <Eliel> but I think what you're trying to get at is that bitcoin needs markets of it's own. So people stop looking at it through dollars and instead look at it as bitcoisn.
968 2011-08-12 10:41:04 <iscalar> Yes, exactly.
969 2011-08-12 10:41:16 <iscalar> Thank you for simplifying it XD much easier way to explain :P
970 2011-08-12 10:41:33 <eps> hopefully once enough people use bitcoin for money transfer people will end up in a position where they don't necessarily want or need to convert bitcoin back to a traditional currency
971 2011-08-12 10:41:54 <iscalar> You'll know we've won the currency war when we can succesfully type "1 dollar to bitcoin" in google and get a calculator reply :P
972 2011-08-12 10:42:07 marf_away has joined
973 2011-08-12 10:42:07 <iscalar> Exactly, its a popularity game basically.
974 2011-08-12 10:42:11 <eps> at that point, bitcoin would become the currency that all other currencies are valued against
975 2011-08-12 10:42:17 <iscalar> And it's staggering how far bit coins come so far.
976 2011-08-12 10:42:32 <eps> i can see banks using bitcoins to measure themselves against other banks
977 2011-08-12 10:42:37 <iscalar> It's just like sci fi movies and "credits" thats basically all bit coins is
978 2011-08-12 10:42:47 <iscalar> A virtual currency accepted internationally. and its beautiful :P
979 2011-08-12 10:42:57 Ramokk has joined
980 2011-08-12 10:43:27 <iscalar> Plus the uses in buisness within regards to major currency differences and exchange rates being effectively unimportant would be staggering.
981 2011-08-12 10:44:07 <eps> i don't think mainstream success for bitcoin is inevitable, but i definitely consider it plausible
982 2011-08-12 10:44:40 <eps> and in the future i think it is almost a certainty that there will be some kind of currency based on the bitcoin concept
983 2011-08-12 10:44:53 <jeremias> criminal uses will certainly be a threat to bitcoin...
984 2011-08-12 10:45:26 <iscalar> Definently, and agreed jeramias, thats what I said above, all it takes is one news story about its black market uses, and people will fail to realise that ANY currency has black market uses.
985 2011-08-12 10:45:28 <eps> criminal uses will certainly be a threat to US dollars...
986 2011-08-12 10:46:10 <lfm> eps hehe
987 2011-08-12 10:46:17 <iscalar> lol :P
988 2011-08-12 10:46:38 <eps> in fact you could argue they already are a threat to US dollars if you consider the credit crunch behaviour of the banks should be illegal
989 2011-08-12 10:46:52 <iscalar> But yeah, the idea of bitcoin is what draws me to it, I like the idea of the entire community being responsible for it as a whole instead of some rich fat cats laughing at how we spend 40 hours a week to earn the money they wipe their arse with, pardon my language.
990 2011-08-12 10:47:24 <iscalar> The second I see a "bitcoin bank" owned by a legitimate corporation however, im bring out the ddosing tools ¬_¬
991 2011-08-12 10:48:01 <eps> corporate welfare is as bad as normal welfare in my opinion, many big companies rely on tax loopholes and might struggle if the business environment wasn't so favourable to them
992 2011-08-12 10:48:08 <phedny_> iscalar: why? wouldn't such a bank actually enable non-tech people to start using BTC?
993 2011-08-12 10:48:14 <iscalar> Exactly.
994 2011-08-12 10:48:36 <eps> I just want a level playing field, ideally a flat tax economy, i realise i am ranting about politics now ;)
995 2011-08-12 10:49:53 <iscalar> Not necassarily phedny, there's always alternative methods to that, all a bank used to be back in the day was a place to store money, now if you can store money on you digitally it renders them useless, and it'd basically be the exact same thing as a real bank, evil, but vital, I'd prefer to keep bit coin away from banks so they do not become dependant on them, which if it became a mainstream currency would most likely happen pure
996 2011-08-12 10:50:06 <iscalar> Eps, completely agreed.
997 2011-08-12 10:50:46 <iscalar> I think the money we earn, should be the money we earn, taxes should only really be paid if the cause behind them is right, and a "defence" (more like offence) budget that surpasses childcare and medical care combined is not were I want my money going really
998 2011-08-12 10:51:02 <BlueMatt> http://pastebin.com/RDw94V1r
999 2011-08-12 10:51:10 <iscalar> I mean, I dont like the idea of working hours a week so the government can take my money to make shit to kill people
1000 2011-08-12 10:51:14 <phedny_> iscalar: in the old times banks weren't necessary too.. you could buy your own fault and store your money / gold.. it's just that banks knew how to protect it better
1001 2011-08-12 10:51:51 <phedny_> iscalar: right now that's still the same.. people that are not the very best in protecting their computer *will* lose their money (to a trojan probably), unless they store it with a bank, that understands security
1002 2011-08-12 10:52:01 marf_away has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1003 2011-08-12 10:52:06 <iscalar> I know, but banks are different now, they use their power and influence to line their own pockets at the expense of the working and lower class
1004 2011-08-12 10:53:06 <iscalar> Their money storage is not even their main money method no more, they can literally create money through the federal reserve through lending, tax loopholes and various other legal failures, it's a real shame.
1005 2011-08-12 10:53:11 <phedny_> isn't that what mobile phone companies, governments, software companies, media companies all are doing?
1006 2011-08-12 10:54:08 <phedny_> now.. for banks in the US I believe ACH is the connecting infrastructure.. but you're not allowed onto it.. when the Bitcoin network is the infrastructure and you *can* go on it.. you'll have a choice
1007 2011-08-12 10:54:19 <phedny_> right now, you don't have that choice
1008 2011-08-12 10:54:44 <iscalar> Well yes, but theres different levels of it, and unfortunately banks are the worse for it, I mean all you have to do is look at the federal reserve banking policies hard enough, I mean lincoln wanted to remove the federal reserve all together, its a private non government owned company, and the world bank too, its horrible, they have a higehr GDP than most small developing countries, and I find that discusting
1009 2011-08-12 10:55:08 <iscalar> They create all the money, but they create it with interest so that there will ALWAYS be debt, it's a horrible system, and thats what attracts me to bit coin so much
1010 2011-08-12 10:55:21 <phedny_> well.. that's how the current system works
1011 2011-08-12 10:55:36 <iscalar> Which is why I want a new system, a man can dream eh :P
1012 2011-08-12 10:55:45 <phedny_> at least when it started.. a dollar entitled you to obtain a certain amount of gold
1013 2011-08-12 10:56:10 <phedny_> so in fact, the dollar was a note that signified the debt of the government, denominated in gold
1014 2011-08-12 10:56:16 <iscalar> it's sad, I know, but I think bit coin could be so wonderful for the people if used correctly, I dont want it being more beneficial for the corporations than the people, it should be the other way around or equal.
1015 2011-08-12 10:56:26 <iscalar> I know, Trust me I know all about that.
1016 2011-08-12 10:56:31 <iscalar> But we can't now
1017 2011-08-12 10:56:41 <iscalar> Our paper money is worth nothing but the paper it's written on basically.
1018 2011-08-12 10:57:01 <phedny_> iscalar: the thing is.. Bitcoin *can* make the difference.. but people with the intelligence and the goal of self-enrichment *will* find ways to enrich themselves
1019 2011-08-12 10:57:07 <iscalar> And all the money is made via debt, the recent debt crysis not only in the us but all around the world is proof of this, something needs to change really.
1020 2011-08-12 10:57:26 <iscalar> Of course that's true, and thats a shame, but why make it easy for them?
1021 2011-08-12 10:57:28 <Eliel> iscalar: even if bitcoin ends up being beneficial for corporations, it works for the benefit of people as well.
1022 2011-08-12 10:57:49 <iscalar> Yes yes I know, but we all know here as a fact that most corporations will try shift that balance
1023 2011-08-12 10:57:51 <Eliel> iscalar: the system design is such that people don't need to depend on a corporation to handle their money for them.
1024 2011-08-12 10:57:56 <iscalar> banks being key example of this.
1025 2011-08-12 10:58:08 <iscalar> Exactly, thats why I love bit coin, or one of the many many reasons XD
1026 2011-08-12 10:58:19 <phedny_> iscalar: in my view, credit card companies are even worse.. but I don't live in the US ;0
1027 2011-08-12 10:58:36 <iscalar> I just don't want it to be braught down to the level of our own national currencies, because that would then devalidate the entire point of bit coins in general.
1028 2011-08-12 10:58:42 <iscalar> Neither do I
1029 2011-08-12 10:58:43 <iscalar> Im uk
1030 2011-08-12 10:58:50 <iscalar> Or more, Im English.
1031 2011-08-12 10:58:51 TheAncientGoat has joined
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1034 2011-08-12 10:59:07 <iscalar> But, I travel a lot, and have family all around the world.
1035 2011-08-12 10:59:14 <iscalar> So, Usa's quite a memorable place for me.
1036 2011-08-12 10:59:24 <phedny_> ah.. you're living in the country that's seeking for digital censorship? ^_^
1037 2011-08-12 11:00:06 <iscalar> I mean let me put it this way, apple, a freaking technology company, owns more money than the largest world super power, obviously something is fundamentally wrong in the system if we can allow that to happen yet still let poverty roam free and people live in squalor
1038 2011-08-12 11:00:15 <iscalar> Yes, I am, and I hate it.
1039 2011-08-12 11:00:21 <iscalar> In fact I moan about that more than anything in my life
1040 2011-08-12 11:00:36 <phedny_> iscalar: the thing is.. Apple understands human psychology
1041 2011-08-12 11:00:48 <iscalar> net neutrality is being completely ignored and the government thinks it has the write to block our access to information, which is infringing our human rights and civil liberties
1042 2011-08-12 11:01:08 <phedny_> well.. it's happening in a lot of countries
1043 2011-08-12 11:01:08 <BlueMatt> <phedny_> ah.. you're living in the country that's seeking for digital censorship? ^_^ <--- what the uk? france? the eu in general?
1044 2011-08-12 11:01:13 <iscalar> of course they do, no company would be that rich otherwise, but that doesn't change my point >_<
1045 2011-08-12 11:01:26 <phedny_> BlueMatt: both the EU and the US, I think
1046 2011-08-12 11:01:35 <iscalar> hey, dont skit, obama has the power to literally turn your internet off if he wants
1047 2011-08-12 11:01:42 <BlueMatt> so...any country anyone would want to live in
1048 2011-08-12 11:01:47 <phedny_> iscalar: so the thing is.. if the system were different.. they'd still find a way to exploit that psychology knowledge
1049 2011-08-12 11:01:48 <BlueMatt> iscalar: ...
1050 2011-08-12 11:01:48 <iscalar> Hmm
1051 2011-08-12 11:02:00 <iscalar> Nepal, barun valley, beautiful place, im a nature freak.
1052 2011-08-12 11:02:12 <iscalar> unfortunately only tibetan monks are allowed to live there :'(
1053 2011-08-12 11:02:27 <BlueMatt> last I heard nepal had the strictest internet filtering ever
1054 2011-08-12 11:02:40 <phedny_> BlueMatt: North Korea hs ;)
1055 2011-08-12 11:02:50 <BlueMatt> well, ok 2nd strictest
1056 2011-08-12 11:03:08 <iscalar> So apart from that, I dont know, just somewhere were the overwhelming beauty of nature can be seen all around me, because while I still see the intrinsic complexity and beauty of EVERYTHING around me, its not nice to sit in a neighborhood fool of hoodies, retards, drug dealers and prostitutes
1057 2011-08-12 11:03:25 <iscalar> Well google the barun valley
1058 2011-08-12 11:03:35 <iscalar> if you could live somewere that beautiful, you wouldnt need internet XD
1059 2011-08-12 11:04:05 MetaV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1060 2011-08-12 11:04:16 <phedny_> hmm.. you'd need two weeks to reach that place? :)
1061 2011-08-12 11:04:30 <iscalar> Hiking, yup.
1062 2011-08-12 11:04:41 <iscalar> Its my dream living location, its just never going to happen, only monks can live there
1063 2011-08-12 11:04:59 <phedny_> and becoming a monk is not possible / allowed?
1064 2011-08-12 11:04:59 <iscalar> but this pictures from the 80's and look at its detail and colour and beauty and zomgwowthisthingblowsmymind
1065 2011-08-12 11:05:00 <iscalar> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Repuk_Makalu_Barun_Valley_Nepal.jpg/622px-Repuk_Makalu_Barun_Valley_Nepal.jpg
1066 2011-08-12 11:05:10 <iscalar> Tibetan monks are raised from a very young age.
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1068 2011-08-12 11:05:17 <iscalar> I believe
1069 2011-08-12 11:05:20 <phedny_> ok
1070 2011-08-12 11:05:40 <iscalar> I dont know, I would become one but it requires certain dogmatic beliefs, of which I hold a very different mindset too
1071 2011-08-12 11:07:37 <iscalar> Anyway, Phedny, Bluematt, were would you guys like to live if you could live anywere?
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1073 2011-08-12 11:09:22 <phedny_> iscalar: I don't know yet.. maybe Canada, Sweden or New Zealand.. but I'd first visit them for a shorter period to feel how life really is in those countries ;)
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1075 2011-08-12 11:09:47 <eps> i quite fancy australia
1076 2011-08-12 11:09:54 <iscalar> Haha, nice nice. Swedens beautiful, love going there, I like switzerland for the ski-ing though
1077 2011-08-12 11:09:54 <eps> but it does seem a bit cut off
1078 2011-08-12 11:10:04 <eps> and their internet is very good i hear
1079 2011-08-12 11:10:16 <eps> it is also quite difficult to get into
1080 2011-08-12 11:10:20 <phedny_> New Zealand is more cut off.. but I suspect it being more privacy-friendly and such
1081 2011-08-12 11:10:22 <iscalar> I have family over there, it's great but if your into gaming I hear they get all their games late and usually rather expensive to buy too
1082 2011-08-12 11:10:34 <vegard> oh hi
1083 2011-08-12 11:10:34 <phedny_> maybe Iceland would be nice .. for political reasons .. and I guess the nature is great there too
1084 2011-08-12 11:10:43 <iscalar> Ooh iceland would be nice.
1085 2011-08-12 11:10:45 <iscalar> very nice.
1086 2011-08-12 11:10:52 <eps> australia is quite expensive in general at the moment
1087 2011-08-12 11:11:04 <eps> i remember my mum going years ago and said it was really cheap
1088 2011-08-12 11:11:19 <eps> but their currency has weathered the financial crisis very well
1089 2011-08-12 11:11:20 <iscalar> I would love to live in a small village with a community type in which everybody recognises eachover, i think that would be my little paradise
1090 2011-08-12 11:11:29 <noagendamarket> eww
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1092 2011-08-12 11:11:35 <iscalar> and i dont really care wear, as long as the scenery is nice an the weather varies
1093 2011-08-12 11:11:44 <phedny_> I know both Australia and New Zealand have score-based immigration rules.. so with a good education you'd be able to get in rather easily
1094 2011-08-12 11:11:50 <vegard> iscalar: you like false gossip and backstabbing too? :-P
1095 2011-08-12 11:11:51 <iscalar> because i love all types of wether, I love sitting outside stoned in a thunderstorm, its a lovely experience
1096 2011-08-12 11:11:53 <iscalar> or even sober!
1097 2011-08-12 11:12:15 <Giel> iscalar: s/wether/weather/; I presume
1098 2011-08-12 11:12:42 <iscalar> Haha, well thats why I want a mature village XD but i'd be willing to accept that in comparison to thosuands of people living with eachover ignorance of everyones interconnectedness and importance to each over, aka, cities/towns.
1099 2011-08-12 11:12:48 <iscalar> Yes XD
1100 2011-08-12 11:13:00 <phedny_> iscalar: well, in samll communities .. if you don't fit in (or adapt), you're not part of it
1101 2011-08-12 11:13:11 <iscalar> I apologize for my spelling, my keyboards a rubber usb one i use for travel as my main ones broken, its pretty hard to press buttons on it lol.
1102 2011-08-12 11:13:23 <iscalar> Well thats why I want to find one I do fit in :P
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1104 2011-08-12 11:13:33 <iscalar> Im not just gonna randomly move to a village because it fits the size I want :P
1105 2011-08-12 11:13:50 <phedny_> anyway.. I'm out for lunch :)
1106 2011-08-12 11:13:53 <iscalar> I'd go on a holiday there for a good month or two, see what the place is really like.
1107 2011-08-12 11:14:00 <iscalar> Okay man, great talk, enjoy your lunch ^-^
1108 2011-08-12 11:14:15 <eps> ideally, in a libertarian soceity, it shouldn't matter whether you share the same values as your neighbours
1109 2011-08-12 11:14:43 <eps> people should respect your right to live your life any way you wish as long as you don't harm other people
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1111 2011-08-12 11:16:32 <iscalar> Ideally - key word.
1112 2011-08-12 11:17:02 <iscalar> If I ever had the money, I'd start my own village for people who think about the same idea EPS
1113 2011-08-12 11:17:13 <eps> yeah, increased authoritarianism is a worrying trend
1114 2011-08-12 11:17:16 <iscalar> why cant we just live in harmony, well, human nature but, why can't we still try?
1115 2011-08-12 11:17:30 <iscalar> Well people are braught up to accept it, and other people abuse that fact.
1116 2011-08-12 11:17:31 <eps> i thought everybody agreed this was a bad idea after WW2?
1117 2011-08-12 11:17:32 <iscalar> It's a real shame.
1118 2011-08-12 11:17:54 <iscalar> Yeah they did, so they hid it through democratic capitalism.
1119 2011-08-12 11:18:05 <eps> talk about not learning from history
1120 2011-08-12 11:18:24 <eps> anyway i think i nearly godwinned the conversation so i better stop now
1121 2011-08-12 11:18:54 agath has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1122 2011-08-12 11:19:16 <iscalar> I know, I find it odd though how the government says the average IQ is going up and up however all I see around me is that people are getting less intelligent and more complacent with the rules of the government.
1123 2011-08-12 11:19:28 <vegard> er, what?
1124 2011-08-12 11:19:44 <iscalar> Lol okay eps :P
1125 2011-08-12 11:19:45 <vegard> I thought IQ was _defined_ so that the average was 100?
1126 2011-08-12 11:19:57 <iscalar> No no no thats based internationally
1127 2011-08-12 11:20:03 <iscalar> im on about national average
1128 2011-08-12 11:20:08 <vegard> oh.
1129 2011-08-12 11:20:12 <eps> IQ is small part of the picture when it comes to political views
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1131 2011-08-12 11:20:28 <eps> i really don't mind people making authoritarian arguements
1132 2011-08-12 11:20:46 <copumpkin> the anti-intellectualism is kind of scary thoug
1133 2011-08-12 11:20:46 <eps> the problem is most people who do so today wrap them up as something else
1134 2011-08-12 11:20:53 <iscalar> I know I know, I just seem to feel that most other people my age (19) and there abouts would rather worry about how to get their next case of beer or get laid then worry about their own true state of well being.
1135 2011-08-12 11:21:05 <iscalar> Exactly pumpkin
1136 2011-08-12 11:21:09 <eps> and it has got to the point where i am not sure if these people are aware of how contradictionary they are
1137 2011-08-12 11:21:25 <eps> i am talking mostly about the republicans in america
1138 2011-08-12 11:21:39 <eps> the war on drugs is a great example
1139 2011-08-12 11:21:40 <copumpkin> yeah, they've been particularly ridiculous for the past couple of years
1140 2011-08-12 11:21:59 <iscalar> I mean all you really need to do is look at tv, look at the complexity of comedy and dark humor in tv shows from the 70's - early 90's now look at "funny" tv today, its like we all got a frontal labotomy or somethign
1141 2011-08-12 11:22:03 <iscalar> something even.
1142 2011-08-12 11:22:06 <copumpkin> the dems are kind of spineless, but not quite as intellectually dishonest :)
1143 2011-08-12 11:22:19 <eps> copumpkin: a good way of putting it
1144 2011-08-12 11:22:41 <copumpkin> I'm kind of blown away at how ridiculous things have gotten
1145 2011-08-12 11:22:43 <iscalar> Mhmm
1146 2011-08-12 11:22:48 <eps> i think i meant contraditory and not contradictionary ;)
1147 2011-08-12 11:22:59 <iscalar> The thing is, there is a lot of people like us, who sit here, and think this, but why do we never do anything
1148 2011-08-12 11:23:02 <copumpkin> soon they'll be talking about the dems as "cockroaches that need to be crushed"
1149 2011-08-12 11:23:03 <eps> contradictory even
1150 2011-08-12 11:23:06 <copumpkin> "leeches on our great nation"
1151 2011-08-12 11:23:07 <copumpkin> :P
1152 2011-08-12 11:23:16 <copumpkin> with the degree of extremist sentiment on that side
1153 2011-08-12 11:23:40 <iscalar> Well yesterday our local paper blamed the riots on "Idiot academics and left winged politicians"
1154 2011-08-12 11:23:59 <iscalar> its like, wtf, were a coalition/conservative government atm, how the hell can you blame the party thats not even in power!
1155 2011-08-12 11:24:11 <copumpkin> dems already murder babies for fun and steal from the hardworking rich to give to the lazy poor
1156 2011-08-12 11:24:22 <eps> it amazes me how liberal is now a dirty word in america, yet all american ploticians boast about how free america is
1157 2011-08-12 11:24:27 <iscalar> Lol pumpkin
1158 2011-08-12 11:24:27 <copumpkin> oh, and we mustn't forget that they want to force everyone to gay marry
1159 2011-08-12 11:24:43 <copumpkin> >_>
1160 2011-08-12 11:24:53 <iscalar> See, republicans play on peoples fears to win, while democrats play on peoples dreams to win.
1161 2011-08-12 11:25:08 <iscalar> Same tactic, different context.
1162 2011-08-12 11:25:11 huk has joined
1163 2011-08-12 11:25:30 <iscalar> I mean obama won mainly because of a single word
1164 2011-08-12 11:25:33 <iscalar> Change
1165 2011-08-12 11:25:50 <copumpkin> also, palin
1166 2011-08-12 11:26:02 <iscalar> Lol
1167 2011-08-12 11:26:06 <copumpkin> I'm sure a lot of the less ridiculous repubs saw her and were like wtf
1168 2011-08-12 11:26:14 <iscalar> I mean, the thing i dont get is the health reforms a while back, how could ANYBODY be against them
1169 2011-08-12 11:26:20 <iscalar> I live in england
1170 2011-08-12 11:26:25 <iscalar> The nhs is AMAZING for fucks sake
1171 2011-08-12 11:26:34 <copumpkin> iscalar: no, you're supposed to hate it!
1172 2011-08-12 11:26:39 <iscalar> it has its flaws, but I dont have to worry about spending thousands of pounds if i have a medical emergency
1173 2011-08-12 11:26:41 m00p has joined
1174 2011-08-12 11:26:41 <copumpkin> that's what fox told me
1175 2011-08-12 11:27:00 <copumpkin> I grew up in italy and never thought twice about healthcare
1176 2011-08-12 11:27:09 <copumpkin> but when I came here I learned that I hated it all along
1177 2011-08-12 11:27:13 <iscalar> But somehow republicans and even some democrats believe that free medical care for the entire country is a bad thing because of a tax rise
1178 2011-08-12 11:27:14 <copumpkin> who knew!
1179 2011-08-12 11:27:27 <iscalar> I mean come on, if your in hospital twice in your life, you've got your moneys worth!
1180 2011-08-12 11:27:47 <copumpkin> iscalar: yeah, but I don't want to pay for poor people
1181 2011-08-12 11:27:53 <copumpkin> they're lazy and deserve to die
1182 2011-08-12 11:28:09 <iscalar> The sad thing is, that's what alot of people believe :'(
1183 2011-08-12 11:28:12 <iscalar> and its sickening really
1184 2011-08-12 11:28:20 <copumpkin> those people should move to an underwater city
1185 2011-08-12 11:28:28 <copumpkin> founded on the great principles of a great woman
1186 2011-08-12 11:28:49 <iscalar> It's sad to think of my domatic beliefs means that I'm technically one of them people, really sad.
1187 2011-08-12 11:28:50 <copumpkin> we shall call it Rapture
1188 2011-08-12 11:28:57 <iscalar> lol
1189 2011-08-12 11:29:32 <copumpkin> not sure why we're talking about this in -dev by the way :P
1190 2011-08-12 11:29:44 <iscalar> Lol I know right, kinda went off on one XD
1191 2011-08-12 11:29:56 * copumpkin goes back to work
1192 2011-08-12 11:29:58 <BlueMatt> http://pastebin.com/RDw94V1r
1193 2011-08-12 11:30:00 <iscalar> but hey, nobody else is talking, were enjoying our selves ranting (i think) :3 no worries.
1194 2011-08-12 11:30:10 * iscalar goes for a smoke.
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1199 2011-08-12 11:33:30 <ThomasV> does someone have a python script that translates a pubkey into a bitcoin address?
1200 2011-08-12 11:33:44 <BlueMatt> bitcointools does that in a few places
1201 2011-08-12 11:34:27 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1202 2011-08-12 11:34:53 <BlueMatt> does muggenhor exist on irc?
1203 2011-08-12 11:36:20 <ThomasV> BlueMatt: it is Giel
1204 2011-08-12 11:36:32 <BlueMatt> oh thats not obvious at all...
1205 2011-08-12 11:36:42 <ThomasV> indeed
1206 2011-08-12 11:37:42 <BlueMatt> ;;seen Giel
1207 2011-08-12 11:37:42 <gribble> Giel was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 25 minutes and 26 seconds ago: <Giel> iscalar: s/wether/weather/; I presume
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1213 2011-08-12 11:45:55 <b4epoche_> damn it, I ask a question and my connection craps out...
1214 2011-08-12 11:49:30 <vegard> must have been a stupid question, then? ;)
1215 2011-08-12 11:50:02 <b4epoche_> apparently HughesNet didn't like it...
1216 2011-08-12 11:50:26 <b4epoche_> did it even make it to the channel ^^
1217 2011-08-12 11:50:51 <vegard> I didn't see anything.
1218 2011-08-12 11:51:03 <b4epoche_> Bitcoin is the latest in a series of so called crypto-currencies and the first to use ideas and developments in cryptography and peer-to-peer networks as the basis for a next-generation, virtual currency; and the first one that seems to have gained a foothold. The ideas behind bitcoin were introduced in a 2008 paper published independently by Satoshi Nakamoto (likely a pseudonym) who then implemented the system in
1219 2011-08-12 11:51:03 <b4epoche_> code and disappeared from the scene roughly six months ago. The fundamental breakthrough that has help propel bitcoin is the idea to have a block chain backed by a rewarded 'proof-of-work' (called mining) to prevent double spending and introduce new bitcoins into the ecosystem. This talk will give an overview of bitcoin, discuss some of the challenges it has faced and some of the benefits it provides, and speculate
1220 2011-08-12 11:51:03 <b4epoche_> on some future challenges.
1221 2011-08-12 11:51:11 <b4epoche_> any further comments?
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1227 2011-08-12 11:54:32 <soap> is it still the latest?
1228 2011-08-12 11:54:43 <edcba> why satoshi would be a pseudonym ?
1229 2011-08-12 11:54:58 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r312ef72 / (3 files in 2 dirs): More block chain fixes and a new test case. - http://bit.ly/nDxVXo https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/312ef727c3d38e25d5f93ffcf814e61c346ade83
1230 2011-08-12 11:55:15 <soap> And if you're going to use the phrase "so called" it is in the speakers best interest to either explain what that means in the presentation itself or have it prominent on the slide.
1231 2011-08-12 11:55:35 <BlueMatt> edcba: no one thinks satoshi is his real name
1232 2011-08-12 11:55:42 b4epoche_ has joined
1233 2011-08-12 11:55:46 <vegard> did anybody actually check the phone book? :-P
1234 2011-08-12 11:55:49 <b4epoche_> wow⦠that's kinda eerie.
1235 2011-08-12 11:56:09 <b4epoche_> did you see my question?
1236 2011-08-12 11:56:36 <soap> and is reward-for-proof a "breakthrough" or merely a "concept"? The difference is in if you are giving a pep rally or a neutral informative speech.
1237 2011-08-12 11:57:59 b4epoche_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1238 2011-08-12 11:58:52 b4epoche_ has joined
1239 2011-08-12 11:58:56 <b4epoche_> well, it is kinda a sales pitch for the talk, which I don't plan to turn into a pep rally
1240 2011-08-12 11:59:14 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #4: FAILURE in 11 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/4/
1241 2011-08-12 11:59:19 <iscalar> edcba:Most likely because satoshi nakamoto is the japanese equavalent of "john doe"
1242 2011-08-12 11:59:21 <b4epoche_> damn it⦠maybe I'll ask again later when HughesNet gets their act together
1243 2011-08-12 12:00:33 <ThomasV> john doe is probably more rare than satoshi nakamoto
1244 2011-08-12 12:00:34 <soap> Se you next decade!
1245 2011-08-12 12:01:53 <b4epoche_> at least it's nice that the online logs appear to be real-time
1246 2011-08-12 12:02:51 <b4epoche_> "likely a pseudonym" replace "certainly a pseudonym" when people questioned in yesterday
1247 2011-08-12 12:02:53 <Diablo-D3> [06:05:06] <shadders> luke-jr: Diablo-D3: anyone-else: anyone can tell me if noncerange is in common use atm?
1248 2011-08-12 12:02:58 <Diablo-D3> shadders: no, its not
1249 2011-08-12 12:03:19 fimp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1250 2011-08-12 12:04:16 <b4epoche_> soap: you have experience presenting stuff?
1251 2011-08-12 12:04:29 <soap> I speak at multiple conferences a year.
1252 2011-08-12 12:04:37 <soap> or should I say "junkets"
1253 2011-08-12 12:04:58 <soap> Big question is: Is this a speech or a speech with powerpoint?
1254 2011-08-12 12:05:18 <b4epoche_> ah, I got out of the conferencing game
1255 2011-08-12 12:05:29 <b4epoche_> speech with Keynote
1256 2011-08-12 12:05:32 <b4epoche_> ;-)
1257 2011-08-12 12:05:47 <b4epoche_> it's a TEDxPSU talk
1258 2011-08-12 12:06:06 <soap> then you need to either support every tech word with an early slide or cut that shit from the introduction.
1259 2011-08-12 12:06:33 <soap> even "blockchain" is needlessly obtuse to those not already familiar with the technology.
1260 2011-08-12 12:06:34 <b4epoche_> supposed to be very 'high level'⦠they wanted someone to talk about bitcoin and one my students who is involved asked me
1261 2011-08-12 12:07:05 <soap> and if they know what a BTC blockchain is, why do they need the introduction?
1262 2011-08-12 12:07:34 <edcba> BlueMatt, iscalar i saw someone with that facebook profile
1263 2011-08-12 12:07:52 <soap> It's (the intro paragraph) a weird mixture of simple-stupid (which is GOOD) and familiar (which is normally, but not always, bad)
1264 2011-08-12 12:07:52 <b4epoche_> soap: remember this summary is not part of the talk
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1266 2011-08-12 12:07:56 <edcba> i'll ask to japaneses for 'john doe' equivalent
1267 2011-08-12 12:08:01 <BlueMatt> Ive seen quite a few real people named satoshi nakamoto
1268 2011-08-12 12:08:19 <iscalar> Mhmm, it's just a overly popular name in japan
1269 2011-08-12 12:08:26 <soap> ahh, but still I'd use <what a block chain is> over "blockchain" anyday.
1270 2011-08-12 12:08:38 <b4epoche_> actually, the first version did not mention block chain at all
1271 2011-08-12 12:08:45 <iscalar> while america hasnt got many real john does england has a lot of john smith's and japan has a lot of satoshi nakamoto
1272 2011-08-12 12:09:02 <soap> let me reread it with Conference Menu in mind.
1273 2011-08-12 12:09:18 <b4epoche_> but then that prompted a whole debate about whether 'proof-of-work' actually prevented double spending
1274 2011-08-12 12:10:06 <b4epoche_> maybe I can change it to "transaction chain"
1275 2011-08-12 12:10:27 <soap> ok, with the idea in mind that this is merely the menu listing, and speaking over people is perfectly fine if the text is still captivating...
1276 2011-08-12 12:11:15 <soap> I'd take out "so called" and make it "Bitcoing is the latest in a series of cryptographically-backed currencies..."
1277 2011-08-12 12:11:36 <soap> Still have the goal questions regarding "breakthrough"
1278 2011-08-12 12:11:46 <b4epoche_> yea, I want to make it somewhat enticing, and since it's an academic audience I'd hope people will want to come to learn about the things unfamiliar to them ;-)
1279 2011-08-12 12:12:12 <soap> we talked about blockchain, rest is perfectly good.
1280 2011-08-12 12:12:21 agath has joined
1281 2011-08-12 12:12:26 <b4epoche_> removed "so called"
1282 2011-08-12 12:12:40 <b4epoche_> changed to "transaction (block) chain"
1283 2011-08-12 12:13:22 <b4epoche_> soap: you should have seen the discussion about this yesterday
1284 2011-08-12 12:13:26 cdecker has joined
1285 2011-08-12 12:13:44 <soap> because "so called crypto-currency" needs familiarization with the phrase whereas "cryptographically-backed" is /just/ as unlikely to be familiar with the audience it is more self explanatory. "Crypto-currency" risks being read as "fake currency".
1286 2011-08-12 12:13:51 <b4epoche_> folks wanted me to make all kinds of over-the-top claims
1287 2011-08-12 12:14:06 Superbest has joined
1288 2011-08-12 12:14:17 <soap> Even if this had been the first slide speech that's not the place to make any claims!
1289 2011-08-12 12:14:26 <b4epoche_> maybe "digital currency"
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1291 2011-08-12 12:15:03 <soap> yea, that works but it doesn't convey as much information. More people will understand it but less information is conveyed. Depends on your goal and audience.
1292 2011-08-12 12:15:17 AAA_awright_ has joined
1293 2011-08-12 12:15:28 <b4epoche_> soap: yea, I know⦠they wanted me to say bitcoin was a fundamentally knew idea and the first of everything
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1295 2011-08-12 12:16:01 <b4epoche_> I think 'crypto' sounds more intriguing
1296 2011-08-12 12:16:10 <soap> it does
1297 2011-08-12 12:16:19 <soap> but it's that balance question again only you can answer.
1298 2011-08-12 12:16:28 <b4epoche_> yep...
1299 2011-08-12 12:17:50 <iscalar> Well whos your target audience
1300 2011-08-12 12:17:59 <iscalar> General population, or technical oriented people.
1301 2011-08-12 12:18:09 <soap> In the context of menu-listing I think your text is perfectly appropriate and my suggestions are tweaks.
1302 2011-08-12 12:18:17 <b4epoche_> TEDxPSU⦠i.e. TED at Penn State
1303 2011-08-12 12:19:00 <iscalar> Well then Cryptographically secure currency makes it sound more appealing.
1304 2011-08-12 12:19:02 <b4epoche_> iscalar: thus, I would think primarily technical oriented
1305 2011-08-12 12:19:05 <iscalar> But, thats just me nit picking.
1306 2011-08-12 12:19:18 dvide has joined
1307 2011-08-12 12:19:37 <b4epoche_> okay, then, it sounds like there is nothing blatantly incorrect ;-)
1308 2011-08-12 12:19:46 <iscalar> Hehe :P
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1313 2011-08-12 12:27:21 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r187 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerTest.java: Fix thinko that was causing test failure. http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r187/
1314 2011-08-12 12:27:34 vigilyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1315 2011-08-12 12:28:50 <iscalar> Anyway people, it's been lovely but I must take off :3 have a nice day everyone ^-^
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1330 2011-08-12 13:01:33 <Baksch> Hi, I have a question concerning the current implementation of transactions: I read there is change (you get coins back). Is it because: A. ONE output of ONE transaction must be spent completely or B. EVERY output of ONE transaction must be spent completely or C. EVERY output of EVERY transaction must be spent completely? Thx
1331 2011-08-12 13:01:51 <phedny_> A
1332 2011-08-12 13:02:15 <phedny_> a single output can only be spent once and in one whole
1333 2011-08-12 13:02:45 <Baksch> and there can only be one output in a transaction, that credits the same adress?
1334 2011-08-12 13:03:11 <phedny_> afaik there is no such requirement
1335 2011-08-12 13:03:30 <phedny_> but I also don't see a reason to make such a transaction
1336 2011-08-12 13:04:28 <Baksch> who knows
1337 2011-08-12 13:04:51 <phedny_> do you have an idea?
1338 2011-08-12 13:05:44 <Baksch> no, I am trying to create a model of a transaction graph, and need to understand the possible structure
1339 2011-08-12 13:05:48 Incitatus has joined
1340 2011-08-12 13:06:01 <phedny_> ok
1341 2011-08-12 13:06:35 <phedny_> that's really interesting, by the way.. since I'm working on an idea that requires someone to trace transactions
1342 2011-08-12 13:07:07 <Baksch> cool
1343 2011-08-12 13:07:14 <Baksch> well I am pretty much at the beginning
1344 2011-08-12 13:07:52 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1346 2011-08-12 13:08:06 <Baksch> I downloaded and run the ABE blockexplorer to fill a DB with data of the transactions
1347 2011-08-12 13:08:15 <Baksch> now I am trying to make something of it
1348 2011-08-12 13:09:32 <ThomasV> Baksch: what kind of database does abe use ?
1349 2011-08-12 13:09:57 <Baksch> it supports several, I use it with Postgresql
1350 2011-08-12 13:10:24 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1352 2011-08-12 13:11:33 <Baksch> I noticed a transaction had the same address as an input more than once, which led me to worry, what is allowed and what not, for example, is it valid to leave one transaction out (from being another input)
1353 2011-08-12 13:11:53 <ThomasV> is there mysql support ?
1354 2011-08-12 13:12:23 Wiedoo has joined
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1356 2011-08-12 13:13:34 <Baksch> He explicitly support postgres and SQLite, but says other DBs may work with minor changes
1357 2011-08-12 13:13:45 <Baksch> here is the project: https://github.com/jtobey/bitcoin-abe/blob/master/README.md
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1359 2011-08-12 13:15:16 <Baksch> is there any reference site I can except the source code?
1360 2011-08-12 13:15:42 <Baksch> * I can READ except the source code
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1364 2011-08-12 13:19:54 <b4epoche_> Baksch: check the bitcoinj source code
1365 2011-08-12 13:20:09 <Baksch> good idea, thx
1366 2011-08-12 13:20:15 <b4epoche_> it's thoroughly commented as opposed to uncommented ;-)
1367 2011-08-12 13:20:54 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
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1371 2011-08-12 13:23:54 <Baksch> anybody happen to know which file handles incoming transaction validations in BitCoinJ? (since Im lazy)
1372 2011-08-12 13:26:36 <b4epoch__> nope, I quit reading it because there were too many comments ;-)
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1374 2011-08-12 13:27:04 <Baksch> lol, never heard that before
1375 2011-08-12 13:27:54 <Baksch> what are you working on requiring trace data, if you care to share?
1376 2011-08-12 13:28:36 Sedra has joined
1377 2011-08-12 13:29:14 <TD> Baksch: bitcoinj is lightweight. it only does some of the validations full bitcoin does
1378 2011-08-12 13:29:40 <TD> Baksch: transactions themselves aren't really verified at all. their presence in a valid block is verified and it's assumed that with high enough difficulty, that is a good indicator of validity
1379 2011-08-12 13:29:47 <TD> Baksch: see the article on the website for details
1380 2011-08-12 13:30:27 <Baksch> TD, thanks. Which website? The Google code site?
1381 2011-08-12 13:32:06 <Baksch> TD, what interests me more, is there any place that decribes how the main client validates blocks/transactions except the source?
1382 2011-08-12 13:32:31 <Baksch> some kind of specification
1383 2011-08-12 13:33:51 <TD> there is
1384 2011-08-12 13:34:04 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
1385 2011-08-12 13:34:21 <ThomasV> Baksch: where is the BBE code ?
1386 2011-08-12 13:34:22 <TD> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/SecurityModel
1387 2011-08-12 13:34:36 <TD> bbe is proprietary, there is an equivalent called ABE which isn't
1388 2011-08-12 13:35:15 SISUbtcX has joined
1389 2011-08-12 13:35:50 <TD> hmmm
1390 2011-08-12 13:35:56 <TD> seems like google code has a regression in wiki rendering :(
1391 2011-08-12 13:36:02 <ThomasV> proprietary ? but they state "Thanks to MtGox Live for running a mirror of Bitcoin Block Explorer."
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1396 2011-08-12 13:45:54 <vegard> hm. imagine if there was a block that hashed to itself
1397 2011-08-12 13:46:12 <TD> blocks are larger than 32 bytes so that's impossible
1398 2011-08-12 13:46:29 <vegard> no, that's not what I meant
1399 2011-08-12 13:46:36 <vegard> but I guess the coinbase address has to be unique?
1400 2011-08-12 13:46:49 p0s has joined
1401 2011-08-12 13:47:51 <vegard> I guess the merkle root would change, though.
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1405 2011-08-12 13:56:25 <Baksch> ThomasV, afaik they agreed with the owner of BBE (theymos) to not publish the code
1406 2011-08-12 13:56:51 <ThomasV> oh
1407 2011-08-12 13:57:20 <ThomasV> Baksch: btw, I downloaded abe ; how do I configure it ?
1408 2011-08-12 13:57:49 <ThomasV> it complains about dbtype not set, but it is set
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1410 2011-08-12 13:58:27 <Baksch> ThomasV, have you read the readme.md and made changes to abe.conf?
1411 2011-08-12 13:58:56 <ThomasV> I did not make any change, because it's already uncommented
1412 2011-08-12 13:59:39 <ThomasV> but I am more familiar with mysql than sqlite
1413 2011-08-12 13:59:39 <Baksch> and which DB are you trying to run, did you install the proper libraries to access the DB?
1414 2011-08-12 14:00:01 <ThomasV> I am not sure
1415 2011-08-12 14:00:36 <Baksch> well I dont know what you have to change for mysql, you can ask the creator John Tobey in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22785.0
1416 2011-08-12 14:01:27 <ThomasV> I instaled sqlite3 and python-sqlite
1417 2011-08-12 14:01:58 <Baksch> did you read the special readme fpr sqlite?
1418 2011-08-12 14:02:00 <Baksch> *for
1419 2011-08-12 14:02:21 <ThomasV> not yet
1420 2011-08-12 14:02:50 <Baksch> TD, thanks for the links, Im reading through it
1421 2011-08-12 14:03:36 <ThomasV> Baksch: where is that special readme ?
1422 2011-08-12 14:03:50 <edcba> bitcon forum has moved ?
1423 2011-08-12 14:03:58 <ThomasV> readme.md ?
1424 2011-08-12 14:04:33 <Baksch> oh your right there isnt, I thought there was, because there was one for postgresql
1425 2011-08-12 14:04:36 <ThomasV> diff README.txt README.md : no difference
1426 2011-08-12 14:05:17 <ThomasV> bah I can try postgresql
1427 2011-08-12 14:06:25 <makomk> ThomasV: abe.conf isn't read unless you pass a command line argument telling abe to use it.
1428 2011-08-12 14:06:39 <ThomasV> oh
1429 2011-08-12 14:06:46 <Baksch> oh yeah thats true, I forgot
1430 2011-08-12 14:09:10 <Baksch> if you havent installed Apache, activate something like no-serve (or similar), then ABE will terminate after filling the DB
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1442 2011-08-12 14:21:06 <bbear> Hello
1443 2011-08-12 14:21:15 <bbear> is it a way to build bitcoin without upnp ?
1444 2011-08-12 14:22:54 pickett has joined
1445 2011-08-12 14:23:08 cronopio has joined
1446 2011-08-12 14:25:03 <ThomasV> bbear: yes
1447 2011-08-12 14:25:06 <ThomasV> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/461
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1449 2011-08-12 14:28:08 <eps> ;;bc,stats
1450 2011-08-12 14:28:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 140680 | Current Difficulty: 1888786.7053531 | Next Difficulty At Block: 141119 | Next Difficulty In: 439 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 4 hours, 56 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1837682.87171258
1451 2011-08-12 14:28:32 <eps> oh looks like we might get a drop this time, cool
1452 2011-08-12 14:29:45 <edcba> ;;bx,mtgox
1453 2011-08-12 14:29:45 <gribble> Error: "bx,mtgox" is not a valid command.
1454 2011-08-12 14:29:48 <edcba> bla
1455 2011-08-12 14:29:51 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1456 2011-08-12 14:29:52 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":10.10002,"low":8.45099,"avg":9.347388767,"vwap":9.318031127,"vol":79697,"last":9.127,"buy":9.18905,"sell":9.21974}}
1457 2011-08-12 14:30:08 <edcba> 1 btc = $10
1458 2011-08-12 14:30:11 <edcba> easy
1459 2011-08-12 14:30:57 <chinaskibit> ;;bx,diff
1460 2011-08-12 14:30:57 <gribble> Error: "bx,diff" is not a valid command.
1461 2011-08-12 14:31:05 <chinaskibit> ;;bc,diff
1462 2011-08-12 14:31:06 <gribble> 1888786.7053531
1463 2011-08-12 14:37:43 moop has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1464 2011-08-12 14:37:44 <topace> hey, i have a question, i sent someone some bitcoins back at block 139855 (aug 6) and he says it still shows "0/unconfirmed" in his client, but mine is showing 826 confirmations
1465 2011-08-12 14:37:53 <topace> here's the transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/5c50c2de1917dd81c1c3b4618991a7359e80ede99c46188f5b4db4343d216891#o1
1466 2011-08-12 14:38:03 <MagicalTux> topace: he needs to keep his client open long enough for the blockchain to download
1467 2011-08-12 14:38:12 <topace> MagicalTux: he's at latest
1468 2011-08-12 14:38:19 <topace> i've since sent him another transfer and its confirmed no problem
1469 2011-08-12 14:38:22 <MagicalTux> topace: have him do -rescan ?
1470 2011-08-12 14:38:40 TheZimm has joined
1471 2011-08-12 14:38:48 <topace> is there an option to do that in the gui? he isnt the brightest of people...
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1477 2011-08-12 14:43:59 <MagicalTux> [23:32:59] <topace> is there an option to do that in the gui? he isnt the brightest of people... <- I think not, need to add it to command line
1478 2011-08-12 14:44:21 <topace> cool thanks gux
1479 2011-08-12 14:44:22 <topace> tux
1480 2011-08-12 14:44:24 <topace> lol
1481 2011-08-12 14:45:19 <TD> topace: are you sure he's at the latest/
1482 2011-08-12 14:45:27 <topace> yes
1483 2011-08-12 14:45:27 <TD> topace: just because it's not going up anymore, doesn't mean you're done
1484 2011-08-12 14:45:43 <topace> i had him confirm the number (without telling him what the latest was)
1485 2011-08-12 14:45:53 <TD> ok
1486 2011-08-12 14:45:59 <TD> any idea how that happened?
1487 2011-08-12 14:46:07 <TD> you're not supposed to ever need -rescan unless you're doing unusual things
1488 2011-08-12 14:46:16 <topace> he says he "shutdown his client" as soon as i sent the transfer
1489 2011-08-12 14:46:22 <TD> that shouldn't matter
1490 2011-08-12 14:46:40 <topace> im thinking maybe his client thinks it downloaded that block, but it really didnt, or it didnt get the whole thing?
1491 2011-08-12 14:46:59 <Baksch> MagicalTux, what is the problem about setting up SEPA transfers? Do the banks reject your requests?
1492 2011-08-12 14:47:01 <TD> i don't think that's possible. if it is, that means there's a serious bug nobody has noticed.
1493 2011-08-12 14:47:26 <topace> TD: heh, well... he's not a very technical person, so he wouldnt have been doing anything funky..
1494 2011-08-12 14:47:31 <MagicalTux> Baksch: they tried, we brought it to court and the court ruled the bank has to open the bank account
1495 2011-08-12 14:47:36 delson has joined
1496 2011-08-12 14:47:39 <TD> hrmm
1497 2011-08-12 14:47:43 <MagicalTux> so now we are waiting for them to open
1498 2011-08-12 14:47:46 <TD> MagicalTux: what was the concern exactly?
1499 2011-08-12 14:47:49 <TD> aml?
1500 2011-08-12 14:48:16 <Baksch> MagicalTux: wow thats pretty bold, what was their concerns?
1501 2011-08-12 14:48:27 <Baksch> *were
1502 2011-08-12 14:48:39 <MagicalTux> TD: they were concerned we were doing electronic money without proper license
1503 2011-08-12 14:48:53 <topace> TD: if -rescan doesnt work, what files should i have him delete? just the blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat ?
1504 2011-08-12 14:49:02 <TD> yeah tell him to backup the wallet as well
1505 2011-08-12 14:49:23 <MagicalTux> the court ruled it was not up to them to decide that, and we prove that bitcoin is not an electronic money under european laws
1506 2011-08-12 14:50:02 <Baksch> MagicalTux: Which court in which country did you "use"
1507 2011-08-12 14:50:08 <MagicalTux> Baksch: France, France
1508 2011-08-12 14:50:25 <MagicalTux> Baksch: the bank was in France, and under french law, the bank is not allowed to deny us a bank account
1509 2011-08-12 14:51:02 <Giel> MagicalTux: same bank as you used before?
1510 2011-08-12 14:51:13 <Baksch> wow so the court didnt acknowledge bitcoin as being electronic money? thats interesting..
1511 2011-08-12 14:51:19 <TD> i didn't realize these laws were EU wide. i know the UK has some rules about electronic money issuance if it's backed by some other asset
1512 2011-08-12 14:51:21 <MagicalTux> yep, makes things easier, we already have stuff ready
1513 2011-08-12 14:51:27 <TD> you need to register some stuff and have >1M GBP on hand
1514 2011-08-12 14:51:36 <MagicalTux> Baksch: European law defines an electronic money as "a money issued in exchange of fiat" (basically)
1515 2011-08-12 14:51:50 <MagicalTux> however, bitcoin is issued to miners, based on predefined rules, as reward for work
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1517 2011-08-12 14:52:11 <MagicalTux> so bitcoin fails as an electronic money (and is not regulated by electronic money laws)
1518 2011-08-12 14:52:15 <Giel> Baksch: it's crypto money, it doesn't require a flow of electrons to be usable (though it helps a lot)
1519 2011-08-12 14:52:22 <TD> yeah, that's how i read the UK laws too.
1520 2011-08-12 14:52:35 <MagicalTux> TD: that's Europe
1521 2011-08-12 14:52:53 <TD> MagicalTux: hmm, so your old bank kicked you out for having too much wire traffic. then wouldn't take you back because they weren't sure about the e-money laws?
1522 2011-08-12 14:52:54 <Giel> MagicalTux: except that bitcoin is *also* issued in exchange for fiat...
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1524 2011-08-12 14:52:54 <Baksch> Giel: yeah lets switch to paper&pen crypto bitcoin ^^
1525 2011-08-12 14:53:00 <TD> you'd think they'd have checked the first time
1526 2011-08-12 14:53:08 <Giel> Baksch: have fun mining *that*
1527 2011-08-12 14:53:10 <TD> Giel: it's not issued. it's traded.
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1529 2011-08-12 14:53:48 <MagicalTux> TD: "too much wire traffic" is not a valid reason for kicking us out. They said to the court they kicked us out because they "knew" we were doing an illegal activity: unlicensed electronic money
1530 2011-08-12 14:53:54 <TD> MagicalTux: i guess with the same old limits it will be hard/impossible to catch up with the backlog?
1531 2011-08-12 14:53:55 <TD> ah
1532 2011-08-12 14:53:57 <Giel> TD: right, I see your point, though IMO it's a small detail
1533 2011-08-12 14:54:01 <MagicalTux> [23:47:05] <Giel> MagicalTux: except that bitcoin is *also* issued in exchange for fiat... <- you *create* bitcoins out of nowhere in exchange of fiat?
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1535 2011-08-12 14:54:26 <MagicalTux> [23:48:05] <TD> MagicalTux: i guess with the same old limits it will be hard/impossible to catch up with the backlog? <- the court ruled they are not allowed to limit us, and chances are we won't have fees anymore
1536 2011-08-12 14:54:34 <TD> good for the court
1537 2011-08-12 14:55:13 <Giel> MagicalTux: so it was the bank that previously charged fees on SEPA transfers?
1538 2011-08-12 14:55:31 <MagicalTux> Giel: of course, we didn't charge fees on SEPA because we wanted to
1539 2011-08-12 14:55:40 <TD> the laws around e-money make sense, imho, it's designed to ensure the public can use these schemes without worrying that the backing assets will just vanish or are non-existant. but they don't make sense in the context of bitcoin as nobody guarantees coins can be exchanged for anything in particular.
1540 2011-08-12 14:55:58 <Giel> that's rather stupendous, given that the entire idea about SEPA is to allow fee-free transfers within the EU...
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1542 2011-08-12 14:56:06 <MagicalTux> TD: and that's good, because the law doesn't recognize bitcoin as e-money (in europe)
1543 2011-08-12 14:56:09 <TD> yes
1544 2011-08-12 14:56:24 <TD> it sounds like everything was done very sensibly. too bad the bank did not listen to your arguments the first time around
1545 2011-08-12 14:56:35 <MagicalTux> Giel: SEPA is not free, however most banks will provide it free to their private customer. Try opening a business account and enjoy your non-free sepa transfers
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1547 2011-08-12 14:56:41 <TD> i can see why they may have been confused by this point though. it's not intuitive that bitcoin would not meet the definition of e-money unless you know how it works.
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1549 2011-08-12 14:57:01 <MagicalTux> TD: we gave them a full presentation on bitcoin, including Satoshi's paper translated to french
1550 2011-08-12 14:57:08 <TD> wow
1551 2011-08-12 14:57:10 <Baksch> MagicalTux: I believe their real reason to reject you was rather, that they are scared of being the target, when mighty people start to feel disturbed by BitCoin
1552 2011-08-12 14:57:20 <TD> MagicalTux: before or after they kicked you out ?
1553 2011-08-12 14:57:45 <MagicalTux> TD: before
1554 2011-08-12 14:57:52 <MagicalTux> and at that date they said it'd be fine
1555 2011-08-12 14:57:54 <TD> huh
1556 2011-08-12 14:57:55 <phedny_> Giel: actually, the idea is to not charge more for SEPA than for national transfers
1557 2011-08-12 14:58:17 <TD> MagicalTux: any idea why they changed their opinion? do you think it was genuine confusion or some other motivation?
1558 2011-08-12 14:58:31 <Giel> phedny_: right, so the SEPA part of it is fee-free..
1559 2011-08-12 14:58:53 <MagicalTux> TD: I think when we did the presentation they though we were crazy and wouldn't get more than 1 or 2 wire a month
1560 2011-08-12 14:58:55 <Giel> MagicalTux: did they use the same argumentation for charging fees on SEPA transfers?
1561 2011-08-12 14:58:56 <TD> ah
1562 2011-08-12 14:58:59 <MagicalTux> not 500 per da
1563 2011-08-12 14:59:00 <MagicalTux> dya*
1564 2011-08-12 14:59:02 <MagicalTux> day*
1565 2011-08-12 14:59:16 <MagicalTux> Giel: charging fees on SEPA is common for commercial accounts in most countries
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1567 2011-08-12 14:59:26 <MagicalTux> just like charging fees on national transfers
1568 2011-08-12 14:59:35 <TD> yeah. well i think that took everyone by surprise. it's good to hear it's now sorted out though, congrats. hopefully there is not too much "bad blood" between you and this bank.
1569 2011-08-12 14:59:42 <TD> i must say, you get things done
1570 2011-08-12 15:00:16 <MagicalTux> it takes time, but there's progress
1571 2011-08-12 15:00:24 <Giel> MagicalTux: not percentage-wise, at least not in the NL, in the NL you pay ⬠0.10 per SEPA transfer regardless of the amount (with most banks at least)
1572 2011-08-12 15:00:39 <Giel> same for national transfers
1573 2011-08-12 15:00:44 <TD> MagicalTux: btw will you issue a press release? i've seen the "bitcoin is e-money" argument brought up before, having a french court determine it is not regulated in this way is something that should be well documented
1574 2011-08-12 15:00:57 <phedny_> MagicalTux: wait.. are you 100% certain that Bitcoin is not money in EU?
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1576 2011-08-12 15:01:23 <TD> phedny_: you have to distinguish between "e-money" as defined by a set of laws regulating that and "money" which is something else
1577 2011-08-12 15:01:32 Baksch has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1578 2011-08-12 15:01:35 <phedny_> Giel: well.. for ING you pay 7 cents for outgoing transfers and 14 cents for incoming transfers ;)
1579 2011-08-12 15:02:04 <MagicalTux> Giel: we have a 0.04% money movement fee, a 0.35 euro transfer fee, and a few other variable fees depending on the amount and other parameters
1580 2011-08-12 15:02:12 <TD> phedny_: and i think a court ruling it's not considered "e-money" for the purposes of those regulations is pretty definitive. besides, it makes total sense. the regulations are quite clearly scoped to things that are backed by some issuer who holds assets.
1581 2011-08-12 15:02:41 <phedny_> TD: so.. if it's not e-money.. can it still be money
1582 2011-08-12 15:02:47 <phedny_> of more precisely .. a currency
1583 2011-08-12 15:02:49 <TD> i guess so
1584 2011-08-12 15:02:58 <TD> i suppose it depends on the context you are using those words in
1585 2011-08-12 15:03:05 <Giel> phedny_: averaging to 10 cent (or 10.5 cent if you wish to be pedantic) ... ;-)
1586 2011-08-12 15:03:08 <TD> words tend to be defined more precisely for the contexts of particular laws
1587 2011-08-12 15:03:09 <phedny_> in the context of tax law
1588 2011-08-12 15:03:18 <MagicalTux> TD: the court ruled that it's not up to the bank to decide if bitcoin is an e-money, and that considered the elements available at this point, bitcoin didn't seem to be an e-money. It is not a ruling on bitcoin but on our capability of opening a bank account, so not that interesting
1589 2011-08-12 15:03:19 <TD> i have no idea
1590 2011-08-12 15:03:22 <phedny_> I want to know whether I must pay VAT for bitcoins I sell as a company
1591 2011-08-12 15:03:33 <TD> MagicalTux: ah right, good point, you already said that
1592 2011-08-12 15:03:46 <phedny_> because, if it's not a currency, it's probably a service or a (virtual) good
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1594 2011-08-12 15:04:37 <MagicalTux> we'll try to get a ruling on that soon
1595 2011-08-12 15:04:50 <Giel> dang you're right about that, profits from currency exchange is tax exempt, though if bitcoin isn't considered a currency that might not apply
1596 2011-08-12 15:05:01 <TD> is it actually you appearing in court? or have you hired some bitcoin-savvy lawyers to do all this for you?
1597 2011-08-12 15:05:42 <Giel> do those even exist? bitcoin-savvy lawyers?
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1599 2011-08-12 15:06:03 <Giel> AFAIK it took decades for there to be any open source-savvy lawyers
1600 2011-08-12 15:06:05 <MagicalTux> TD: we have some tech-savvy lawyers and representative in France
1601 2011-08-12 15:06:11 <TD> nice
1602 2011-08-12 15:07:02 sytse has joined
1603 2011-08-12 15:07:08 <MagicalTux> and if you pay enough, they'll read through the bitcoin wiki/paper/etc and become bitcoin savvy (kind of)
1604 2011-08-12 15:07:20 <phedny_> :)
1605 2011-08-12 15:07:34 <phedny_> anyway.. can you steer the ruling such that Bitcoin *is* considered a currency? :p
1606 2011-08-12 15:08:03 <TD> a ruling on the e-money aspects would have no implication for tax law
1607 2011-08-12 15:08:17 <TD> you should talk to your countries tax collection agencies, i guess
1608 2011-08-12 15:08:28 <phedny_> like they know what's going on with Bitcoin
1609 2011-08-12 15:08:30 <Giel> TD: under the assumption that: e-money != currency?
1610 2011-08-12 15:08:51 <MagicalTux> e-money is a kind of currency with a private central issuer
1611 2011-08-12 15:08:54 <TD> phedny_: don't assume they're stupid. you can sum up what it is in the detail they need fairly easily.
1612 2011-08-12 15:09:09 <MagicalTux> while a currency has a public (country) central issuer
1613 2011-08-12 15:09:11 <TD> Giel: yes, like i said, these words have very specific meanings in specific contexts.
1614 2011-08-12 15:09:13 <Giel> TD: "yes, I'd like to know if you want me to pay taxes over bitcoins.", reply: "of course!"
1615 2011-08-12 15:09:31 <TD> Giel: you'd ask them if you make profit from currency speculation, how is that taxed? and they'd probably say RTFM :-)
1616 2011-08-12 15:09:32 <Giel> better to ask an accountant or tax lawyer
1617 2011-08-12 15:09:43 <phedny_> TD: I don't assume they're stupid.. but making a decision on may have some potentially unforeseen consequences.. and they don't like them
1618 2011-08-12 15:09:46 <MagicalTux> in Japan we have a law that fits bitcoin a lot
1619 2011-08-12 15:10:01 <Giel> TD: currency exchange is tax exempt (it is in the NL at least)
1620 2011-08-12 15:10:05 <MagicalTux> "local currency", which is basically an unregulated currency which has value only within a community
1621 2011-08-12 15:10:30 <phedny_> Giel: I've been doing my thesis at an accountancy firm .. but they wouldn't dare to make a statement on it
1622 2011-08-12 15:10:40 <Giel> MagicalTux: doesn't that describe *every* unbacked currency ?
1623 2011-08-12 15:10:58 <Giel> (with a somewhat larger community for some currencies than others)
1624 2011-08-12 15:11:15 <Giel> phedny_: how about an educated guess?
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1626 2011-08-12 15:12:46 <MagicalTux> Giel: the interesting part here is the fact there are laws for this
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1629 2011-08-12 15:14:04 <luke-jr> shadders: noncerange is basically waiting on miners to implement it; I have a working pushpool implementation, but not pushed upstream or running on Eligius yet
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1631 2011-08-12 15:14:41 <luke-jr> lfm: noncerange reduces the load drastically; don't know what you're thinking
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1640 2011-08-12 15:45:11 <Eliel> well, bitcoin sure seems to me to be closer to currency than e-money with those definitions :)
1641 2011-08-12 15:45:37 <Eliel> it's certainly not issued privately. Although, then again, it is
1642 2011-08-12 15:50:09 <ThomasV> bitcoin is issued privately
1643 2011-08-12 15:50:53 <Eliel> that's a matter of interpretation. Whether it's considered the network is issuing the coins or if the miner is issuing them.
1644 2011-08-12 15:51:06 <ThomasV> :-)
1645 2011-08-12 15:51:46 <Eliel> the miner can't do it alone. The whole network has to agree. Otherwise the miner doesn't have coins :)
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1655 2011-08-12 16:14:45 <Giel> Eliel, ThomasV: no private party issues bitcoins...
1656 2011-08-12 16:15:01 <luke-jr> lots of private parties issue bitcoins
1657 2011-08-12 16:15:41 <eps> luke-jr: i think you mean trade them
1658 2011-08-12 16:15:48 <luke-jr> eps: I mean issue
1659 2011-08-12 16:15:58 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r18b54cd9dc84 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/Gatekeeper/plugin.py: Gatekeeper: add an error catch, for those times when bot happens to not be in foyer. http://tinyurl.com/3erzvzu
1660 2011-08-12 16:16:07 <eps> ok who issues bitcoins?
1661 2011-08-12 16:16:24 <luke-jr> the miner
1662 2011-08-12 16:16:25 <BlueMatt> me
1663 2011-08-12 16:16:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: 1L7NMxesoT9gsNNhixtmfZP2tLQgNricFS
1664 2011-08-12 16:16:48 <eps> but the miner only gets those coins if the rest of the network agrees
1665 2011-08-12 16:16:51 <BlueMatt> na, I only give them to miners
1666 2011-08-12 16:16:59 <eps> BlueMatt: yeah,i will have 50 btc too please
1667 2011-08-12 16:17:00 <luke-jr> I'm a miner
1668 2011-08-12 16:17:01 <BlueMatt> eps: thats why I said me
1669 2011-08-12 16:17:12 <luke-jr> eps: ok, everyone then
1670 2011-08-12 16:17:20 <BlueMatt> I wasnt joking, everyone whos running a node "issues" bitcoins as much as miners
1671 2011-08-12 16:17:26 <eps> luke-jr: so it isn't really private is it?
1672 2011-08-12 16:17:55 Blitzboom_ has joined
1673 2011-08-12 16:18:00 <luke-jr> God issues bitcoins by giving you teh random pick
1674 2011-08-12 16:18:02 <luke-jr> :P
1675 2011-08-12 16:18:03 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1676 2011-08-12 16:18:15 <Giel> luke-jr: I'm an atheist
1677 2011-08-12 16:18:23 <luke-jr> Giel: doesn't change the fact that God exists
1678 2011-08-12 16:18:26 <BlueMatt> shame, because bitocin proves god exists
1679 2011-08-12 16:18:27 <eps> bitcoin is like the internet itself, it is a protocol, or in terms lay people would understand, an agreement
1680 2011-08-12 16:18:29 <Giel> how come I have bitcoins?
1681 2011-08-12 16:18:31 <luke-jr> just means you're delusional
1682 2011-08-12 16:18:52 <luke-jr> Giel: cuz He does exist
1683 2011-08-12 16:19:04 <BlueMatt> eps: that is a good way to put it everyone agrees your hash is valid and that it is worth 50 BTC
1684 2011-08-12 16:19:06 <luke-jr> you're pretending He doesn't won't change that.
1685 2011-08-12 16:19:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but you still find the hash, so you issue it ;)
1686 2011-08-12 16:19:25 <Giel> luke-jr: that, or I'm one of the few who's not hallucinating...
1687 2011-08-12 16:19:29 <luke-jr> everyone else just verifies
1688 2011-08-12 16:19:37 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well yes, I run the only miners that find the solutions
1689 2011-08-12 16:19:37 <luke-jr> Giel: then you wouldn't have bitcoins
1690 2011-08-12 16:19:43 <Eliel> Giel: just call him "The Nature" then :P
1691 2011-08-12 16:19:57 <eps> tbh this is a semantic issue
1692 2011-08-12 16:20:02 <BlueMatt> Giel: bitcoins are a hallucination, but if you believe in god, then it becomes normal for you anyway
1693 2011-08-12 16:20:11 <Giel> Eliel: "The Universe" sounds better
1694 2011-08-12 16:20:20 <eps> and lawyers will no doubt argue amount if bitcoin becomes more widespread
1695 2011-08-12 16:20:21 <Eliel> Giel: sure, if you like that better.
1696 2011-08-12 16:21:01 <Giel> BlueMatt: bitcoins aren't physical objects, nor are numbers, would you say numbers are a hallucination as well?
1697 2011-08-12 16:21:09 <eps> The private entity known as "The Universe" issued me these bitcoins your honour"
1698 2011-08-12 16:21:15 <BlueMatt> Giel: take a joke
1699 2011-08-12 16:21:49 <Giel> BlueMatt: I'm just being overly pedantic ;-)
1700 2011-08-12 16:21:59 <Eliel> Giel: of course numbers are hallucinations :P They're mere thoughts, after all
1701 2011-08-12 16:22:34 <eps> mathmatical philosophy is actually quite fun
1702 2011-08-12 16:22:36 <Giel> Eliel: they're less than thoughts, they're concepts
1703 2011-08-12 16:22:51 <eps> and very relevant to computers
1704 2011-08-12 16:23:13 <Eliel> Giel: no concept exists that hasn't been thought of. But true, if you think of their physical form, they're a pointer to the concept.
1705 2011-08-12 16:23:34 <BlueMatt> eps: even if my computer is a hallucination, it doesnt effect my programming...
1706 2011-08-12 16:23:37 <Giel> Eliel: actually concepts that no one hasn't thought of do exist, we're just not aware of their existence (yet)
1707 2011-08-12 16:23:44 <eps> math is abstract, but it does a good job of describing parts of the observable universe
1708 2011-08-12 16:23:48 <Eliel> Giel: semantics :D
1709 2011-08-12 16:24:08 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-2 build #5: STILL FAILING in 19 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-2/5/
1710 2011-08-12 16:24:08 <Eliel> Giel: ... or well, more like disagreement over what the word "exists" means.
1711 2011-08-12 16:24:09 <BlueMattBot> matt: Upgrade dependancies and tweak build process.
1712 2011-08-12 16:24:16 <BlueMatt> arg
1713 2011-08-12 16:24:17 <Giel> Eliel: didn't I just say I'm being pedantic? semantics are *very* important if you're being pedantic ;-)
1714 2011-08-12 16:24:21 <sacarlson> all object are just active energy and aren't real so it should all be free
1715 2011-08-12 16:24:48 <Giel> Eliel: I mean the "exists" as used in first order logic
1716 2011-08-12 16:25:05 <eps> Bill Clinton, a lawyer, famously argued about the definition of the word "is" during the lewinsky affair.
1717 2011-08-12 16:25:25 <Giel> meaning that proving something doesn't exist (anywhere) is next to impossible
1718 2011-08-12 16:25:52 <eps> prove that 1 bitcoin plus 1 bitcoin equals 2 bitcoins
1719 2011-08-12 16:26:13 <asher^> ep:s bertrand russell already did
1720 2011-08-12 16:26:33 <Giel> eps: that's actually easy if you reduce the problem to 1 + 1 = 2 (as it follows *directly* from the definition of positive integers)
1721 2011-08-12 16:26:39 clr_ has joined
1722 2011-08-12 16:26:51 <luke-jr> wow, fail
1723 2011-08-12 16:26:59 <luke-jr> numbers are more real than you are
1724 2011-08-12 16:27:20 <sacarlson> giel: like I said everything exist no where so Bill Clinton was inicent
1725 2011-08-12 16:27:23 <asher^> eps: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Principia_Mathematica_theorem_54-43.png
1726 2011-08-12 16:27:31 <Giel> luke-jr: something's either real or not, hence nothing can be "more" or "less" real than anything else..
1727 2011-08-12 16:27:51 <Diablo-D3> thats not entirely true.
1728 2011-08-12 16:27:54 <luke-jr> Giel: you change. numbers do not.
1729 2011-08-12 16:27:58 DukeOfURL has joined
1730 2011-08-12 16:28:09 <Giel> sacarlson: I don't believe everything exists, just that it is impossible to *prove* that something doesn't exist...
1731 2011-08-12 16:28:10 <luke-jr> numbers exist without regard to the passing of time.
1732 2011-08-12 16:28:11 <Diablo-D3> any programmer knows 1 + 1 = 2 only for some values of 2.
1733 2011-08-12 16:28:12 <luke-jr> you have a beginning
1734 2011-08-12 16:28:17 sshc_ is now known as sshc
1735 2011-08-12 16:28:25 <eps> Giel: human beings are not infailable
1736 2011-08-12 16:28:35 <luke-jr> eps: popes are
1737 2011-08-12 16:28:38 <Giel> luke-jr: complex numbers aren't real by the way :-P
1738 2011-08-12 16:28:39 <asher^> the difference between internet philosophers and regular philosophers is that internet philosophers are devoid of self-doubt
1739 2011-08-12 16:28:44 <eps> two people can observe the same thing and describe it differently
1740 2011-08-12 16:29:01 <BlueMatt> eps: disagreed, Im perfect
1741 2011-08-12 16:29:06 <sacarlson> Giel: no I was saying nothing exists it's all just space and energy but even space is not real
1742 2011-08-12 16:29:23 <Giel> eps: actually according to quantum theory two people can observer the same thing, describe it differently and *both* be correct
1743 2011-08-12 16:29:27 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1744 2011-08-12 16:29:49 <asher^> Giel thats not quantum theory
1745 2011-08-12 16:29:51 <Giel> sacarlson: so you're saying that "it's all a matter of interpretation" ?
1746 2011-08-12 16:29:56 <asher^> you are thinking of the general theory of relativity
1747 2011-08-12 16:30:15 <asher^> and by thinking of i mean butchering
1748 2011-08-12 16:30:16 <sacarlson> Giel: it only exist as we see it in our present state of active mater so I guess that makes it real to us
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1752 2011-08-12 16:30:39 <sacarlson> giel: yes
1753 2011-08-12 16:30:47 <eps> BlueMatt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
1754 2011-08-12 16:30:55 <Giel> asher^: butchering: not really, just taking a *huge* shortcut, and I'm quite sure that it's quantum theory not general/special relativity
1755 2011-08-12 16:31:11 <BlueMatt> eps: dont care, Im infallible
1756 2011-08-12 16:31:24 <BlueMatt> hint: Im God
1757 2011-08-12 16:31:28 <Giel> sacarlson: that also makes it real in practice; it doesn't however mean that it's the *only* reality
1758 2011-08-12 16:31:47 <eps> BlueMatt: give me bitcoins pls, otherwise i don't believe what you claim
1759 2011-08-12 16:31:54 <Giel> BlueMatt: actually I am, I just allow you to believe you are me ;-)
1760 2011-08-12 16:32:04 <sacarlson> giel: agreed
1761 2011-08-12 16:32:06 <eps> and that is pretty much how most religions are started
1762 2011-08-12 16:32:39 <Giel> eps: what? somewhat claiming to be an omnipotent entity?
1763 2011-08-12 16:32:45 <BlueMatt> Giel: yes
1764 2011-08-12 16:32:51 <eps> but yeah, reality is subjective, this is why the law scares me so much
1765 2011-08-12 16:32:53 <BlueMatt> most religions are just that
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1767 2011-08-12 16:33:20 <eps> cos in a courtroom the truth is whoever argues convincingly, not that i can think of a better way to do it
1768 2011-08-12 16:33:25 <Giel> eps: hmm, the laws of thermo dynamics don't particulary scare me...
1769 2011-08-12 16:33:30 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1770 2011-08-12 16:33:38 <Giel> nor do any other physical laws scare me
1771 2011-08-12 16:33:58 <asher^> due to fears of intellectual osmosis i must do the following...
1772 2011-08-12 16:34:00 asher^ has left ()
1773 2011-08-12 16:34:01 <eps> Giel: i meant the legal system
1774 2011-08-12 16:34:35 <Giel> eps: I got that, was just yanking your chain
1775 2011-08-12 16:35:51 <Giel> but yes, legal laws are quite often in contradiction with natural laws
1776 2011-08-12 16:36:05 Zarutian has joined
1777 2011-08-12 16:36:10 <eps> i read a book abotu alan turing which touched a lot on mathematical philosophy, the hard stuff went over my head but a lot of it is quite fascinating
1778 2011-08-12 16:36:17 gribble has joined
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1780 2011-08-12 16:36:28 <Giel> or more oftenly the goals of people creating those laws
1781 2011-08-12 16:36:29 <eps> like how you can never perfectly simulate the weather system on earth
1782 2011-08-12 16:36:41 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1783 2011-08-12 16:36:46 <eps> because you would need to simulate the entire universe, every atom
1784 2011-08-12 16:37:12 <eps> you would effectively need a second universe
1785 2011-08-12 16:37:25 <eps> this also explains why code has bugs as well
1786 2011-08-12 16:37:31 <Giel> how about using parallel universes for that?
1787 2011-08-12 16:37:41 <eps> Giel: sure fire one up for me
1788 2011-08-12 16:37:50 <Giel> hey, I want to see what happend if Hitler won the war: lets create a parallel universe to find out!
1789 2011-08-12 16:38:01 <marf_away> uhh bad
1790 2011-08-12 16:38:23 <marf_away> i think an atomic worldwar
1791 2011-08-12 16:38:32 <Giel> (just to give an example that there'd be moral implications to the parallel universe problem-solving approach)
1792 2011-08-12 16:39:20 <eps> ok i won't create any parrallel universes :(
1793 2011-08-12 16:39:31 Darnoth has joined
1794 2011-08-12 16:40:38 <sacarlson> giel: I've always felt that we will or have seen every secound of every moment of every living things Consciousness at another moment in time and space
1795 2011-08-12 16:41:06 <Giel> oh damn it, I just found out that I've just met the conditions of Godwin's law
1796 2011-08-12 16:41:21 <eps> sacarlson: i really don't like the sound of that
1797 2011-08-12 16:41:27 <Giel> sacarlson: sounds like the belief in a soul to me
1798 2011-08-12 16:41:39 <Giel> I don't believe in such a thing
1799 2011-08-12 16:41:46 <eps> Giel: i think thee is some rule about the impossibility of not breaking godwins law
1800 2011-08-12 16:42:20 <sacarlson> Giel: ya it's not always a pleasent thing unless you see your self as the rich guy driving the cool car with the cool chick
1801 2011-08-12 16:42:48 <sacarlson> giel: but sadly you were also that ant you steped on yestarday
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1803 2011-08-12 16:42:56 <Giel> eps: it's stated as a limit of a probability to time, so unless the direction of that limit is wrong it's right almost by definition
1804 2011-08-12 16:43:03 <eps> sacarlson: i am a bit of a misanthrope, so the idea really doesn't have much appeal to me
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1806 2011-08-12 16:44:25 <Giel> sacarlson: the belief in the existence of a soul (particularl an immortal one) sounds like just another reason to be less afraid of death (and less appreciating of life) to me...
1807 2011-08-12 16:45:36 <Giel> heck too many religions provide some kind of reincarnation (either back on earth or in heaven/hell), hence are focused so much on death that IMO the devaluate life
1808 2011-08-12 16:45:51 <Giel> s/(?<=IMO )the/they/;
1809 2011-08-12 16:46:42 chmod755 has joined
1810 2011-08-12 16:46:53 <Giel> chmod755: permission denied
1811 2011-08-12 16:47:06 <chmod755> Giel: damn it
1812 2011-08-12 16:47:10 <Giel> read only filesystem
1813 2011-08-12 16:47:11 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
1814 2011-08-12 16:47:20 <Giel> haha!
1815 2011-08-12 16:47:41 <eps> lol
1816 2011-08-12 16:47:55 <Giel> I didn't expect him to /leave
1817 2011-08-12 16:48:09 <Eliel> Giel: that makes no sense that belief in reincarnation would devalue life. If anything it would make it more valuable.
1818 2011-08-12 16:49:02 <Giel> Eliel: it makes the availability of life infinite, in my experience resources of infinite availability (or near that) are worth next to nothing
1819 2011-08-12 16:49:56 <eps> heh, if bitcoins have taught us anything it is that finite resources are more valuable unlimited ones (fiat currencies)
1820 2011-08-12 16:49:57 <Eliel> Giel: that's binary thinking though.
1821 2011-08-12 16:51:02 <Giel> Eliel: you mean black & white?
1822 2011-08-12 16:51:14 <Eliel> I guess.
1823 2011-08-12 16:51:24 <luke-jr> Giel: without afterlife, life really would have no value at all
1824 2011-08-12 16:51:27 <eps> if the universe ultimately turns out to be binary then he is correct
1825 2011-08-12 16:51:41 <eps> luke-jr: apart from the here and now you mean?
1826 2011-08-12 16:51:50 <luke-jr> there is no here and now if you're dead.
1827 2011-08-12 16:51:55 <Giel> luke-jr: why not?
1828 2011-08-12 16:51:58 <eps> exactly
1829 2011-08-12 16:52:01 <luke-jr> suicide is the only logical conclusion if life is temporary.
1830 2011-08-12 16:52:07 <Eliel> Giel: even if Life is infinite, we're bound to live it one moment at a time.
1831 2011-08-12 16:52:14 <Diablo-D3> not true
1832 2011-08-12 16:52:14 <eps> so while you are alive the here and now is precious
1833 2011-08-12 16:52:17 <Diablo-D3> LSD helps you with that
1834 2011-08-12 16:52:30 <Giel> luke-jr: what eps said ^^
1835 2011-08-12 16:52:35 <luke-jr> not at all
1836 2011-08-12 16:52:39 <luke-jr> because it won't matter later
1837 2011-08-12 16:52:53 <eps> Diablo-D3: really?, you prescribe lsd to people on suicide watch?
1838 2011-08-12 16:52:59 <Giel> luke-jr: sure, but long term thinking isn't the strong suit of most people anyway..
1839 2011-08-12 16:53:11 <eps> luke-jr: how can you be sure it will matter at the moment?
1840 2011-08-12 16:53:12 <Giel> so the fact that something does/doesn't matter later is rarely motivation to do something
1841 2011-08-12 16:54:16 <luke-jr> eps: because nothing matters if life is temporary.
1842 2011-08-12 16:54:21 <Giel> eps, Diablo-D3: if you prescribe enough LSD to these people and put them in a room where they cannot accidentily hurt themselves they're unlikely to do so on purpose :-P
1843 2011-08-12 16:54:21 <sacarlson> my ex wife in 1983 told me she would never give me any more LSD after the bad trip I had. But most were good
1844 2011-08-12 16:55:01 <Giel> sacarlson: dang, I haven't even got a first wife...
1845 2011-08-12 16:55:02 <eps> luke-jr: do you believe life isn't temporary?
1846 2011-08-12 16:55:08 <luke-jr> eps: of course it isn't.
1847 2011-08-12 16:55:20 <eps> ok what do you believe?
1848 2011-08-12 16:55:24 <luke-jr> I am Catholic.
1849 2011-08-12 16:55:30 <eps> ahh ok
1850 2011-08-12 16:55:40 mosi has joined
1851 2011-08-12 16:55:43 <sacarlson> giel: I'll get you three wives over here
1852 2011-08-12 16:55:45 <eps> for the record i consider myself agnostic
1853 2011-08-12 16:55:50 <Giel> luke-jr: do you believe *biological* life is temporary?
1854 2011-08-12 16:56:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr base58_liberal_parsing * rc893b5501b90 bitcoind-personal/src/base58.h: When parsing base58 data, accept [0O] as o, and [l|!] as 1 http://tinyurl.com/44ev35g
1855 2011-08-12 16:56:10 <eps> i haven't found a religion that convinces me
1856 2011-08-12 16:56:18 <luke-jr> Giel: no, unless for some corner-case of the definition of 'biological'
1857 2011-08-12 16:56:29 <eps> but i don't discount the existence of a supernatural entity
1858 2011-08-12 16:56:55 <eps> thats just as rational as any theory science has come up with to explain existence so far
1859 2011-08-12 16:57:00 <sacarlson> eps: it's those UFO's man
1860 2011-08-12 16:57:06 <Giel> sacarlson: no thanks, a single girlfriend is a bit much already at times, I expect three wives to leave me like the victim of a succubus
1861 2011-08-12 16:57:48 <sacarlson> giel: it keeps them busy to talk to them selves instead of bothing you all the time
1862 2011-08-12 16:57:51 <eps> sacarlson says it is the UFOs, i am not convicned :|
1863 2011-08-12 16:58:09 <Giel> sacarlson: X-Files ?
1864 2011-08-12 16:58:10 * luke-jr has 1 wife, 4 children, so far
1865 2011-08-12 16:58:26 <luke-jr> sacarlson: lrn2english
1866 2011-08-12 16:58:41 <Giel> luke-jr: so far? you plan on having more wives or children?
1867 2011-08-12 16:58:42 <sacarlson> giel: you don't beleave in ET with all those specs of light what makes you think we are alone
1868 2011-08-12 16:58:52 <luke-jr> Giel: God's plan is not known to me.
1869 2011-08-12 16:58:54 traviscj_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1870 2011-08-12 16:59:37 <Giel> sacarlson: I believe there's life in other places in the universe than just our own planetary system
1871 2011-08-12 16:59:52 <Giel> doesn't mean I believe it to have traveled to Earth
1872 2011-08-12 17:00:11 Backburn has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1873 2011-08-12 17:00:38 <sacarlson> giel: that jelly fish looking thing they shot from the space shuttle looked prety real to me
1874 2011-08-12 17:00:58 <Giel> sacarlson: URL to picture?
1875 2011-08-12 17:01:04 Backburn has joined
1876 2011-08-12 17:01:30 <sacarlson> giel: some youtube video on the internet
1877 2011-08-12 17:01:34 <Giel> btw you do know of the saying "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck"?
1878 2011-08-12 17:02:02 <Giel> i.e. if it looks like a jellyfish it might very well be one (from Earth)
1879 2011-08-12 17:02:48 <sacarlson> giel: a jelly fish with blinking lights one it? maybe I could mount some led's on a big one
1880 2011-08-12 17:04:50 <Giel> as long as I haven't seen the video I can't really judge it, and won't
1881 2011-08-12 17:05:23 freewil has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1882 2011-08-12 17:06:13 <luke-jr> it was obviously a jellyfish that breeded with a Radeon
1883 2011-08-12 17:06:30 Eremes has joined
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1885 2011-08-12 17:07:39 <Giel> luke-jr: ATI?
1886 2011-08-12 17:08:29 blob has joined
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1889 2011-08-12 17:15:53 * Giel AFK
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1902 2011-08-12 17:53:03 <ciscoftw_l33t> info regarding forking and/or malicious forking, from what i understand forks are natural and not a big deal... looking for some doc/links
1903 2011-08-12 17:53:21 <ciscoftw_l33t> "honest client" ...if we're all using the same blockchain how is this possible?
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1905 2011-08-12 17:57:34 <[Tycho]> ciscoftw_l33t, depends on how deep is the fork.
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1908 2011-08-12 17:59:54 <ciscoftw_l33t> P2P network wont allow this to happen though, right? not possible for a single node to highjack block (fork it deep enought to make a difference)
1909 2011-08-12 18:00:29 <[Tycho]> It's possible if the node has enormous hashing power.
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1911 2011-08-12 18:01:12 <ciscoftw_l33t> but each node can't up/down by a factor of 4 -this defends against single node hashing power?
1912 2011-08-12 18:01:28 <ciscoftw_l33t> ...from "taking over" block
1913 2011-08-12 18:01:43 <[Tycho]> What do you mean by "taking over" ?
1914 2011-08-12 18:02:00 <ciscoftw_l33t> creating a deep enought fork where P2P clients start picking it up
1915 2011-08-12 18:02:31 <ciscoftw_l33t> ...majority of peers start using forked new blockchain
1916 2011-08-12 18:02:52 <[Tycho]> What's that "factor of 4" &
1917 2011-08-12 18:02:53 <[Tycho]> ?
1918 2011-08-12 18:03:13 <ciscoftw_l33t> the diff can't be increased/decreased by a factor of 4
1919 2011-08-12 18:03:43 <ciscoftw_l33t> stop a singel node from creating all new blocks, right???? fuck i dont know??? i'm asking :)
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1924 2011-08-12 18:08:06 <Giel> ciscoftw_l33t: probability of fork depth is inversly related to that depth
1925 2011-08-12 18:08:37 <Giel> i.e. a fork depth of 4 is possible but very unlikely
1926 2011-08-12 18:10:10 <ciscoftw_l33t> the factor of 4 i was reffering to was regarind the difficulity being increased/decreased to meet the 10min block creation schedule... regarding the depth of a fork (which happens natural, and isn't a big deal) how would forking be used maliciouly?
1927 2011-08-12 18:10:16 <ciscoftw_l33t> thanx for response too
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1931 2011-08-12 18:12:04 <Giel> afaik the worst you could do with a lengthy fork is try to DoS the network
1932 2011-08-12 18:12:21 <Giel> bandwidth wise that is
1933 2011-08-12 18:13:08 <Giel> more likely that the fork ends up being the head of the blockchain and the original head gets dropped though
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1941 2011-08-12 18:23:21 <sgstair> how many blocks would a fork have to displace to cause problems, 6?
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1944 2011-08-12 18:23:55 <sgstair> It's definitely hard to do reliably, but some entity with relatively high hashrate trying continuously could probably pull it off at some point.
1945 2011-08-12 18:24:52 Eremes has left ()
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1947 2011-08-12 18:28:36 <Eliel> sgstair: the chance of failure is rather large and it's most likely going to be obvious it was attempted.
1948 2011-08-12 18:29:01 <Eliel> also, it only works if you're going to be receiving whatever it is the money is for immediately as it's verified.
1949 2011-08-12 18:29:28 <sgstair> well assume the attacker doesn't play by the rules and only releases the blocks on success?
1950 2011-08-12 18:30:37 <sgstair> it's obviously easiest to succeed undetected if your goal isn't to actually steal something, but to cause havok, but if you were moving money around a lot, you could potentially exploit it. Granted it would take probably thousands of attempts to succeed...
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1952 2011-08-12 18:31:31 <Eliel> sgstair: that would still look suspicious
1953 2011-08-12 18:32:50 <mtrlt> how do you look suspicious when you're not doing anything from the viewpoint of others?
1954 2011-08-12 18:33:05 zomtec has joined
1955 2011-08-12 18:33:05 <mtrlt> or am i missing something here :P
1956 2011-08-12 18:34:12 <Eliel> mtrlt: well, you know, if at first you don't see the transaction they are sending and then it suddenly appears with 6 confirmations? not suspicious?
1957 2011-08-12 18:34:47 <Eliel> oh wait, I'm thinking the wrong way
1958 2011-08-12 18:35:02 <sgstair> yeah, I was considering erasing a 6-block confirmation
1959 2011-08-12 18:37:36 <Eliel> anyway, I expect it'd be a rare transaction where you can actually pull that off. Because, you have to be able to get away with the goods before you unload the cancel transaction chain on the network.
1960 2011-08-12 18:38:36 <sgstair> right, it's hard to exploit
1961 2011-08-12 18:38:49 <sgstair> but, if your goal was to just screw up bitcoin vendors, it becomes a lot more plausible
1962 2011-08-12 18:38:55 <sgstair> albeit wasteful
1963 2011-08-12 18:39:51 <Eliel> also, if the transaction is big enough that such an attack might be plausible, nothing prevents you from setting the number of blocks higher than 6
1964 2011-08-12 18:40:13 <sgstair> true. I'm not sure how many blocks you'd have to displace to really cause problems.
1965 2011-08-12 18:47:14 <Eliel> sgstair: the only way to cause problems is to invalidate an already confirmed send (and also slowing down transaction processing might be possible)
1966 2011-08-12 18:48:59 <sgstair> right, I just wonder what sorts of effects this might have on automated payment processing stacks, etc.
1967 2011-08-12 18:49:28 <makomk> Eliel: the "goods" can be diffrent bitcoins...
1968 2011-08-12 18:50:37 <Eliel> makomk: like ixcoins?
1969 2011-08-12 18:51:30 <makomk> Or just different coins from the same chain...
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1972 2011-08-12 18:52:36 <makomk> (Though obviously you have to convert them to something else before the loss of confidence hits...)
1973 2011-08-12 18:53:19 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 308000 4096
1974 2011-08-12 18:53:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 308000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 4096, is 15 hours, 51 minutes, and 57 seconds
1975 2011-08-12 18:54:20 tynx has joined
1976 2011-08-12 18:54:22 <Eliel> makomk: the loss of confidence issue should ease up the bigger bitcoin economy grows.
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1979 2011-08-12 18:56:53 <gavinandresen> Semi-random thought based on recent IRC discussion: It wouldn't be hard to implement a 'checkpoint' RPC call, that let you add a blockchain checkpoint at run-time...
1980 2011-08-12 18:57:18 <BlueMatt> checkpoint of what?
1981 2011-08-12 18:58:08 <gavinandresen> Big mining pools or merchants could then write little daemons that watched the block chain and regularly check-pointed 10-blocks-back if they were 99.9% sure they weren't on the wrong side of a fork.
1982 2011-08-12 18:58:26 <gavinandresen> checkpoint block-depth block-hash
1983 2011-08-12 18:58:35 <gavinandresen> (like the compiled-in blockchain checkpoints)
1984 2011-08-12 18:58:44 <BlueMatt> ah, well Im not sure anyone would actually use that...
1985 2011-08-12 18:58:49 <gavinandresen> Reject any chain that doesn't have <block-hash> at <block-depth>
1986 2011-08-12 18:58:56 <BlueMatt> or...I dont see a really good use case
1987 2011-08-12 18:59:42 <tcatm> I don't see a use case either. The beauty of the blockchain is that it's already secure without any checkpoints as long as there is enough computing power.
1988 2011-08-12 18:59:45 <phantomcircuit> well
1989 2011-08-12 18:59:58 <gavinandresen> If you're worried about Sybil attacks, then monitoring sites like blockexplorer for what they think is best-chain via a non-bitcoin-network method would be a good sanity check.
1990 2011-08-12 19:00:37 <phantomcircuit> personally i am far more worried about flaws in the actual binary
1991 2011-08-12 19:00:43 <BlueMatt> if someone can get you under sybil, your network isnt secure and if you are using bitcoin over a known-bad network, well Im not sure how much we can do to help you
1992 2011-08-12 19:00:46 <tcatm> instead of monitoring bbe you can just connect to any bitcoin node and ask it about their chain
1993 2011-08-12 19:01:15 <BlueMatt> also, see -keepnode pull req </plug>
1994 2011-08-12 19:01:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, fyi i got a simplified c version of my sybil attack to connect to and stay connected to 500 nodes and fill their connection slots
1995 2011-08-12 19:01:48 <phantomcircuit> it's merely a matter of supplying it a complete list of connectable nodes at this point
1996 2011-08-12 19:01:48 <gavinandresen> I looked at -keepnode, it looked like too much code for what it does... (Yet Another thread, etc etc)
1997 2011-08-12 19:02:08 <phantomcircuit> and that was only about 20 mbps
1998 2011-08-12 19:02:25 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is a bug that needs fixed in network handling, however it doesnt mean a merchant will be sybil-able unless you get yourself a ton of ips
1999 2011-08-12 19:02:26 <tcatm> what we could do: add certificates to the getblock commands so trustable nodes can sign their blockchain when sending it to clients
2000 2011-08-12 19:02:49 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, actually you could do it with 1 ip
2001 2011-08-12 19:02:56 <phantomcircuit> that's the beauty of the attack...
2002 2011-08-12 19:02:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: reasoning: exponential backoff works best if you can put it in its own thread instead of trying to do complicated timing in existing threads
2003 2011-08-12 19:03:06 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: their nodes will still keep 8 outgoing
2004 2011-08-12 19:03:13 <BlueMatt> so its not a working sybil
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2006 2011-08-12 19:03:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, except those connections die over time and wouldn't be able to connect because the other nodes slots would be full
2007 2011-08-12 19:03:55 <BlueMatt> yes the fill everyone's connection slots is currently theoretically possible, but that is a separate bug (that needs fixed asap imo) that doesnt fully apply here imo
2008 2011-08-12 19:04:10 <phantomcircuit> it's less of a bug
2009 2011-08-12 19:04:22 <phantomcircuit> and more of an attack against the networking codes basic architecture
2010 2011-08-12 19:04:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: also the crazy vectors to handle ips is due to the fact that a -keepnode may have multiple ips per dns name, in any case if you dont like it say so...
2011 2011-08-12 19:04:45 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: why not auto-checkpoint every block when it reaches 120 confirmations?
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2014 2011-08-12 19:04:56 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: well if (already have connection from this ip) drop connection; could solve your attack here...
2015 2011-08-12 19:05:04 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: not to say current net code would be secure after that
2016 2011-08-12 19:05:15 <phantomcircuit> ok so now i need ~200 ips
2017 2011-08-12 19:05:17 <phantomcircuit> meh
2018 2011-08-12 19:05:29 <BlueMatt> again, doesnt make it secure, but helps a lot
2019 2011-08-12 19:05:34 <phantomcircuit> point is that the current network code is not high performance by a long shot
2020 2011-08-12 19:05:42 <phantomcircuit> which is the basic issue
2021 2011-08-12 19:05:46 <BlueMatt> yep, thats why people like Giel are rewriting it ;)
2022 2011-08-12 19:05:53 <tcatm> luke-jr: why use a blockchain at all in that case?
2023 2011-08-12 19:05:56 <BlueMatt> (or atleast large parts of it)
2024 2011-08-12 19:06:03 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I think auto-checkpointing would work as long as the block timestamps were within X standard deviations of what-the-difficulty-predicts-they-should-be
2025 2011-08-12 19:06:25 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's actually not possible to make the network code high performance without ignoring the checksum
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2028 2011-08-12 19:06:58 <luke-jr> fwiw, Eligius is intentionally setting its timestamps up to 2 hours into the future
2029 2011-08-12 19:07:19 <tcatm> why?
2030 2011-08-12 19:07:37 <gavinandresen> I've been saying for a year that I think sending bitcoin transactions/blocks over a different protocol (and writing bridge nodes that speak both) is a good idea.
2031 2011-08-12 19:07:38 <luke-jr> I'm abusing it as an extranonce until more miners implement noncerange+rollntime
2032 2011-08-12 19:08:05 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Giel is working on that with his latest pull
2033 2011-08-12 19:08:23 <BlueMatt> (well working on generalizing it)
2034 2011-08-12 19:08:26 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: BitTorrent? :P
2035 2011-08-12 19:09:07 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is just ridiculous, the checksum is overkill but making it secure and making it high-perf are not entirely related and you can still do things to avoid ddos without just dropping checksum entirely...
2036 2011-08-12 19:09:25 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: no, I don't think bittorrent would be the right protocol.
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2038 2011-08-12 19:10:21 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, actually you cant since if you're doing the checksum you *must* buffer all of the message
2039 2011-08-12 19:10:26 <phantomcircuit> whcih is fundamentally the issue
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2041 2011-08-12 19:10:51 <BlueMatt> you can checksum from disk without loading into memory
2042 2011-08-12 19:11:06 <phantomcircuit> instead of allowing the os to figure out how to throttle you end up having to put all that logic into the application
2043 2011-08-12 19:11:15 <BlueMatt> no you dont
2044 2011-08-12 19:11:22 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, uh no im talking about the checksum in the network protocol
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2046 2011-08-12 19:11:54 <BlueMatt> can you not write a checksum implementation that reads the network packet header from memory, the blocks from disk, etc
2047 2011-08-12 19:11:56 <BlueMatt> should be possible
2048 2011-08-12 19:12:13 <BlueMatt> complicated, but possible
2049 2011-08-12 19:12:22 <phantomcircuit> so you're going to push stuff from the network directly to disk and then checksum it?
2050 2011-08-12 19:12:30 <phantomcircuit> insanity
2051 2011-08-12 19:12:39 <BlueMatt> no, oh you mean receiving stuff
2052 2011-08-12 19:12:51 <BlueMatt> well thats an entirely separate can of worms
2053 2011-08-12 19:12:54 <BlueMatt> I thought you meant sending
2054 2011-08-12 19:13:16 <BlueMatt> but receiving you already have it in memory anyway, so buffering that isnt really a huge problem...
2055 2011-08-12 19:13:20 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: is the bitcoin consultancy designing a new p2p or non-p2p network protocol?
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2057 2011-08-12 19:14:11 <phantomcircuit> honestly the current protocol minus the individual message checksums would be fine
2058 2011-08-12 19:14:29 <phantomcircuit> since you already have to implement the same serialization to calculate stuff
2059 2011-08-12 19:14:36 <BlueMatt> what about recv buffering kills perf?
2060 2011-08-12 19:15:03 <phantomcircuit> having a 10 MB recv buffer limits the number of concurrent connections you can have
2061 2011-08-12 19:15:48 <BlueMatt> you dont need 10MB unless blocks get that big...
2062 2011-08-12 19:16:17 <BlueMatt> and youd still have to load full blocks into a buffer to deserialize and check the blocks
2063 2011-08-12 19:16:28 <phantomcircuit> wrong
2064 2011-08-12 19:16:37 <BlueMatt> explain
2065 2011-08-12 19:17:08 <phantomcircuit> you can deserialize the blocks in stages rejecting blocks which fail at any stage
2066 2011-08-12 19:17:32 <gavinandresen> ... yeah, you probably already have all the transactions. So you should just get block header and list of tx hashes....
2067 2011-08-12 19:17:39 <gavinandresen> ... then request any missing transactions.
2068 2011-08-12 19:17:47 <phantomcircuit> you cant
2069 2011-08-12 19:18:01 <gavinandresen> (or even various merkle branches if we ever get to millions of txns per block)
2070 2011-08-12 19:18:05 <phantomcircuit> the only way to get the order for transactions with the current network protocol is to call getblock
2071 2011-08-12 19:18:15 <gavinandresen> Right. I'm talking in the future
2072 2011-08-12 19:18:17 <phantomcircuit> unless someone added a way to get the merkle room
2073 2011-08-12 19:18:21 <phantomcircuit> root*
2074 2011-08-12 19:18:44 <BlueMatt> yea, you always have to have a 1block-sized recv buffer to msg checksum, but seriously, 1block is tiny
2075 2011-08-12 19:18:53 <BlueMatt> to hit higher perf you need 500-block-sized
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2077 2011-08-12 19:19:12 <BlueMatt> but you can always split that up to high smaller buffers
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2079 2011-08-12 19:19:34 <phantomcircuit> the 500 block uh blocks are only necessary when actually hitting the database
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2083 2011-08-12 19:20:05 <BlueMatt> ?
2084 2011-08-12 19:20:21 <phantomcircuit> processing blocks 1 at a time or 500 at a time only matters when hitting disk
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2086 2011-08-12 19:20:38 <phantomcircuit> anyways a major boost to performance would be a way to specify the order of transactions in a block without sending all of them
2087 2011-08-12 19:21:01 <BlueMatt> not when you have to request each block individually
2088 2011-08-12 19:21:31 <BlueMatt> and disk perf is only bad because bitcoin handles disk poorly
2089 2011-08-12 19:21:38 <BlueMatt> not because of any kind of actual limitation
2090 2011-08-12 19:22:11 <luke-jr> (that's BlueMatt's fault)
2091 2011-08-12 19:22:20 <BlueMatt> ...?
2092 2011-08-12 19:22:28 <luke-jr> :p
2093 2011-08-12 19:22:37 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2094 2011-08-12 19:23:06 <makomk> luke-jr: 2 hours?!
2095 2011-08-12 19:23:14 <makomk> I wonder if that's exploitable...
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2100 2011-08-12 19:23:40 <luke-jr> makomk: if Eligius were to get 50% of the network, it might start making things break I think
2101 2011-08-12 19:24:42 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: anyway, to sum it up, there is no way recv buffer needs to be 10MB, you just have to be smart about requesting blocks to limit the size of messages...yes removing the checksum would be nice, but its by no means required to get perf network here
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2103 2011-08-12 19:25:58 <makomk> If any node is more than a few minutes behind Eligius, I wonder how hard it would be to exploit that to double-spend...
2104 2011-08-12 19:26:00 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, if the other side sends you a 1 MB block you must have at least a 1MB buffer
2105 2011-08-12 19:26:10 <BlueMatt> thats what I said
2106 2011-08-12 19:26:29 <BlueMatt> yes, in the distant may-not-happen future, it would be required
2107 2011-08-12 19:26:34 <BlueMatt> but blocks are still fairly small
2108 2011-08-12 19:31:57 <luke-jr> makomk: Bitcoin requires a reasonably accurate clock in general.
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2111 2011-08-12 19:40:06 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r188 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerTest.java: Clean up PeerTest http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r188/
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2114 2011-08-12 19:46:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * reb72eae / src/rpc.cpp : Don't std::advance past beginning of transactions array. Fixes #465 - http://bit.ly/qQrafH https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/eb72eae304a7067eb568437c66c4d831b075dab9
2115 2011-08-12 19:46:12 <Kireji> I'm running ubuntu 9.10, running 64bit bitcoind, and I get the following error when I run it:
2116 2011-08-12 19:46:16 <Kireji> """bitcoind: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by bitcoind)"""
2117 2011-08-12 19:46:31 <Kireji> previously I was running 0.3.21 ok
2118 2011-08-12 19:47:08 <Kireji> this error is from 0.3.24 from http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.24/bitcoin-0.3.24-linux.tar.gz\
2119 2011-08-12 19:49:27 <Kireji> it appears the apt-installed c libs are "2.10.1-0ubuntu19"
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2122 2011-08-12 19:51:03 <Kireji> argh fark, karmic is no longer supported
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2157 2011-08-12 20:58:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: at first glance: if wallet is locked (ie encrypted) GetOrReuseFromPool will throw a std::runtime_error, it doesnt look to me like that will get handled and will get thrown quite a ways up stream
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2161 2011-08-12 21:00:58 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I don't think that can happen-- it could only happen if wallet's vchDefaultKey is empty. Which it won't be, because wallets start out unlocked and create a default key when they are created.
2162 2011-08-12 21:01:17 wardearia has joined
2163 2011-08-12 21:02:01 <gavinandresen> I think. That's why I want you and sipa to review...
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2167 2011-08-12 21:05:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: also, topupkeypool name changed to keypoolrefill?
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2171 2011-08-12 21:09:19 <wardearia> I'm confused why by default the "official" (is it?) gentoo linux ebuild for bitcoin (and wxbitcoind -- separate ebuild for daemon and gui? uhhhhhhh..) includes http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/0.3.24-eligius_sendfee.patch -- If it includes it by default, why isn't this patch included in the "official" (is it really?) bitcoin repository?
2172 2011-08-12 21:09:27 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
2173 2011-08-12 21:10:04 <wardearia> btw, that previous statement from me is unofficial (or is it?)
2174 2011-08-12 21:10:26 <lfm> wardearia: good question. it is cuz luke-jr is behind both
2175 2011-08-12 21:10:50 <luke-jr> wardearia: it's called USE flags
2176 2011-08-12 21:11:46 <wardearia> lfm, But what is the community consensus? Is this acceptable? desirable? etc?
2177 2011-08-12 21:12:19 <wardearia> I don't want to find something being pushed or forced upon others just because of personal agenda
2178 2011-08-12 21:12:21 <luke-jr> wardearia: nobody's complained
2179 2011-08-12 21:12:29 <luke-jr> wardearia: USE flags aren't forced by definition, n00b
2180 2011-08-12 21:12:36 Sedra has joined
2181 2011-08-12 21:12:50 <lfm> luke-jrno need for name calling. it is a legit question
2182 2011-08-12 21:13:09 <luke-jr> lfm: I answered the question :p
2183 2011-08-12 21:13:35 <luke-jr> just him calling an explicitly optional patch "forced" is nonsense
2184 2011-08-12 21:13:39 <lfm> you gave one answer. you are not really who he is asking tho
2185 2011-08-12 21:13:53 <luke-jr> he's asking the wrong people then
2186 2011-08-12 21:14:30 <lfm> I wonder what gavinandresen and bluematt think
2187 2011-08-12 21:15:05 <luke-jr> they don't use Gentoo afaik
2188 2011-08-12 21:15:24 <lfm> still
2189 2011-08-12 21:17:09 <lfm> wardearia: I suspect the answer is that by accepting the package luke-jr has prepared for the gentoo users you kinda have to accept the version he wants to give you. if there is a problem, youd have to repatch or unpatch it yourself
2190 2011-08-12 21:18:03 <wardearia> lfm, Well, disregarding gentoo specifically, I'm curious to determine whether this patch is desirable or not. I am uncertain and haven't followed any discussion regarding it.
2191 2011-08-12 21:18:11 <luke-jr> lfm: nope, like I said, it's explicitly optional
2192 2011-08-12 21:18:12 <gavinandresen> luke-jr's elgius sendfee patch wouldn't be accepted into mainline, because it special-cases his pool and includes what at least a few of us think are bad-for-the-network changes to tx fee handling.
2193 2011-08-12 21:18:23 <luke-jr> lfm: he just has to set USE='-eligius'
2194 2011-08-12 21:18:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it doesnt special-case the pool
2195 2011-08-12 21:18:44 <luke-jr> it just allows sending transactions with lower fees
2196 2011-08-12 21:19:06 <wardearia> I have been hesitant to use any of the latest developments of gentoo ebuild since my last revision pushed to public repo and am considering how to proceed.
2197 2011-08-12 21:19:11 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: what does the code in AppInit2 that does a Lookup of relay.eligius.st do?
2198 2011-08-12 21:19:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: same thing the rest of the DNS seeding does
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2202 2011-08-12 21:22:03 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: .. then why didn't you just add it to the strDNSSeed[] array in net.cpp ????
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2205 2011-08-12 21:22:27 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: IIRC, last time I remade the patch, it had DNS seeding off by default
2206 2011-08-12 21:22:39 <lfm> wardearia: its open source. you should be able to revert patches that you dont find desirable if you wish.
2207 2011-08-12 21:22:51 <gavinandresen> ... so you special-cased to always dns seed to elgius....
2208 2011-08-12 21:23:00 <luke-jr> lfm: he doesn't have to revert anything, just do the equivalent of leaving the Eligius checkbox off
2209 2011-08-12 21:23:23 <gavinandresen> wardearia: short answer: luke-jr's stuff is not-official. Use at your own risk, no warranty expressed or implied, etc etc etc
2210 2011-08-12 21:23:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: there is no official
2211 2011-08-12 21:23:42 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * r0ea76c5 / package.json : Added package file for easier installation of deps. - http://bit.ly/osrKYd https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit/commit/0ea76c57471bc3a966fb979a8152376bf075b3ca
2212 2011-08-12 21:23:42 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * re8239b3 / package.json : Typo. - http://bit.ly/qCU5gS https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit/commit/e8239b3a84b2f1b9577eedeed4d613d21348b5eb
2213 2011-08-12 21:23:42 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * rce61481 / (package.json pubkeys.js realtime.js server.js): Updated for latest bitcoin-p2p and Socket.IO. - http://bit.ly/r1cLCd https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit/commit/ce614812643bc09c075924c0afe462b9f5567459
2214 2011-08-12 21:24:01 <lfm> luke-jryes of course you would never make a patch that anyone else would find objectionaable in any way. Your patches are perfect for everyone. What am I saying!
2215 2011-08-12 21:24:02 <gavinandresen> ok, it is less official than the not-official version you can get from the bitcoin github project.
2216 2011-08-12 21:24:13 <luke-jr> lfm: the only patches that are always enabled, are backports of the current 0.0005 BTC fees and network DoS fixes
2217 2011-08-12 21:24:19 <wardearia> Okay, I was kinda shocked to notice specifically that the pass was used by default without the user specifically asking for it. That seemed undesirable for me.
2218 2011-08-12 21:24:26 <wardearia> s/pass/patch/
2219 2011-08-12 21:24:58 <lfm> luke-jr you avoid the point
2220 2011-08-12 21:26:09 <luke-jr> my point is that there isn't a point :P
2221 2011-08-12 21:27:02 <lfm> you argue the specific changes you have made are harmless, we ask if it is good policy in general to have official versions with different options and defaults.
2222 2011-08-12 21:27:23 <luke-jr> lfm: no, I argue that the specific changes I made are optional
2223 2011-08-12 21:27:39 <lfm> so they are not harmless?
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2225 2011-08-12 21:27:47 <luke-jr> lfm: as in, if the user doesn't have USE=eligius set, the patch is not applied at all
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2227 2011-08-12 21:28:05 <luke-jr> it's also only available for 0.3.22+, which is not in stable yet
2228 2011-08-12 21:28:58 * luke-jr notes this is fairly standard practice for Gentoo: third-party patches available as a USE flag
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2230 2011-08-12 21:29:50 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: spiffy, I withdraw any expressed or implied objections, then (I don't know nuthin about gentoo ebuild stuff)
2231 2011-08-12 21:30:05 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: afaik you already did that in the BSD license
2232 2011-08-12 21:30:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: afaik you also don't support 0.3.20.2 (Gentoo stable), with or without patches :P
2233 2011-08-12 21:30:29 * lfm note luke-jr often seems to wear blinders when he should be considering other people point of veiw
2234 2011-08-12 21:30:35 <gavinandresen> ... there's a difference between "you're allowed to do it" and "I approve of what you done did"
2235 2011-08-12 21:30:58 Stellar has quit (Client Quit)
2236 2011-08-12 21:31:02 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that was regarding disclaiming warranties
2237 2011-08-12 21:32:14 Stellar has joined
2238 2011-08-12 21:32:35 <luke-jr> Gentoo stable users installing the Satoshi client have the choice for 'nls sse2 ssl volatile-fees debug selinux' and languages 'de es fr it nl pt ru'; the only "forced" patch is a backport of the networking fixes required to play nice on the netwokr
2239 2011-08-12 21:33:27 <luke-jr> if they choose to unmask the testing versions, they can get 'eligius upnp' optionally also (and no more sse2), and a few more languages
2240 2011-08-12 21:34:30 <lfm> wardearia: so I think you asked a good question. The answer is it isn't really settled officially
2241 2011-08-12 21:34:49 <wardearia> hmm
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2243 2011-08-12 21:35:43 <lfm> the fact that you asked seems to contradict some of luke-jr's assumptions as I see it
2244 2011-08-12 21:35:45 <wardearia> I propose for eligius useflag to be optional and that a user must specifically include it in their /etc/make.conf or /etc/portage/packages.keywords file instead of enabling by default without the user even knowing.
2245 2011-08-12 21:36:14 <luke-jr> lfm: he's the first to complain after it's been there for months
2246 2011-08-12 21:36:20 <luke-jr> wardearia: it's ALREADY optional by design
2247 2011-08-12 21:36:41 <lfm> optional is not what he sez. default is what he asks
2248 2011-08-12 21:36:50 <wardearia> Otherwise for my own use, if I do use the latest snapshot/revision of public/official gentoo ebuild, then I can personally remove it for my own needs.
2249 2011-08-12 21:37:13 <luke-jr> wardearia: that made no sense
2250 2011-08-12 21:37:26 <wardearia> e.g. in my /etc/make.conf or /etc/portage/package.use (sorry, wrong file mentioned above) I can add -eligius
2251 2011-08-12 21:37:40 <luke-jr> ⦠you can
2252 2011-08-12 21:37:50 <lfm> luke-jr and I am not really hearing a complaint as such, more of just some pointed questions.
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2257 2011-08-12 21:50:53 <b4epoche_> if you d/l and ./configure; make
2258 2011-08-12 21:51:06 <luke-jr> â¦
2259 2011-08-12 21:51:13 <b4epoche_> what do you get? eligius or not?
2260 2011-08-12 21:51:58 <luke-jr> you obviously don't use Gentoo
2261 2011-08-12 21:52:16 <luke-jr> also, nothing Satoshi client related has a configure scriptâ¦
2262 2011-08-12 21:52:41 <b4epoche_> I most certainly do not, but the question seems to be that wardearia seems to be saying your patch is applied by default and you're saying it is not
2263 2011-08-12 21:53:00 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: if you simply 'emerge wxbitcoin' without specifying USE=eligius or USE=-eligius, you get it at present
2264 2011-08-12 21:53:20 <luke-jr> defaults tend to follow a "best for most users" policy
2265 2011-08-12 21:53:49 <b4epoche_> "at present"?
2266 2011-08-12 21:53:55 <luke-jr> (you also get the volatile-fees patch)
2267 2011-08-12 21:54:16 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: if people decided it wasn't a good default, that could obviously change
2268 2011-08-12 21:54:50 <b4epoche_> so, Gentoo crowd-sources defaults?
2269 2011-08-12 21:55:31 <gjs278> the only default options I have to change for my gentoo is db4.8 location and the static to dynamic, along with a personal patch that removes debug.log logging
2270 2011-08-12 21:55:33 <luke-jr> no, ebuild maintainer picks a sensible default and only changes it if there's reason to think most people don't want it :p
2271 2011-08-12 21:55:36 <lfm> ya, whats "best for most users" my not be "whats best for gentoo users"
2272 2011-08-12 21:55:37 TheZimm has joined
2273 2011-08-12 21:55:51 <luke-jr> gjs278: we're talking about the ebuild :p
2274 2011-08-12 21:56:33 <gjs278> of course
2275 2011-08-12 21:56:56 <gjs278> I just don't see why anyone has any complaints about it being in the ebuild... don't like it turn it off, or just do it yourself from the git
2276 2011-08-12 21:57:05 freewil has joined
2277 2011-08-12 21:57:08 <luke-jr> pretty much
2278 2011-08-12 21:57:42 <b4epoche_> honestly, there should be some rules for calling your client "Bitcoin"
2279 2011-08-12 21:57:42 bbear has joined
2280 2011-08-12 21:57:44 <bbear> hello
2281 2011-08-12 21:58:02 <bbear> Can I ask you if wxgtk-2.9 is required to build bitcoin ?
2282 2011-08-12 21:58:10 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: no client should be called "Bitcoin"
2283 2011-08-12 21:58:12 <bbear> Just to know
2284 2011-08-12 21:58:15 <b4epoche_> or to make things a level playing field, there would be Bitcoin-Satoshi
2285 2011-08-12 21:58:18 <luke-jr> bbear: the wx client, yes
2286 2011-08-12 21:58:24 <b4epoche_> luke-jr: I agree
2287 2011-08-12 21:58:37 <b4epoche_> but there should be some naming to avoid confusion
2288 2011-08-12 21:58:43 <bbear> luke-jr: so I need wxgtk-2.9. Can I build it easily ?
2289 2011-08-12 21:58:48 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: Gentoo has bitcoind, wxbitcoin, spesmilo, and (soon) bitcoin-qt
2290 2011-08-12 21:58:55 <luke-jr> bbear: if you use Gentoo :P
2291 2011-08-12 21:59:14 <b4epoche_> luke-jr: and yours is?
2292 2011-08-12 21:59:17 <bbear> I would like to build it but with wxgtk-2.9 in my home directory.
2293 2011-08-12 21:59:19 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: spesmilo
2294 2011-08-12 21:59:32 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: but I maintain all of them at the moment
2295 2011-08-12 21:59:35 <luke-jr> the ebuilds, that is
2296 2011-08-12 22:00:14 <b4epoche_> and the one that patches the satoshi client?
2297 2011-08-12 22:00:18 gp5st has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2298 2011-08-12 22:00:19 <b4epoche_> is called?
2299 2011-08-12 22:01:23 zeropointo has joined
2300 2011-08-12 22:05:47 sytse has joined
2301 2011-08-12 22:06:54 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r189 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerTest.java: More PeerTest cleanup http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r189/
2302 2011-08-12 22:09:23 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r139a6f7 / (lib/connection.js lib/peermanager.js): Handle "Socket not writable" errors. - http://bit.ly/qs4cH2 https://github.com/bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p/commit/139a6f76aeb3b1219d7cacee6ddac459f086f555
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2305 2011-08-12 22:12:38 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r190 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerTest.java: Yet more PeerTest cleanup http://bitcoinj.googlecode.com/svn-history/r190/
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2307 2011-08-12 22:13:06 <b4epoche_> I'm sure this has been debated to death but what are the thoughts on a review committee or a test suite to 'validate' bitcoin clients?
2308 2011-08-12 22:14:20 clr_ has joined
2309 2011-08-12 22:14:32 <diki> "First picked up by Wes Miller (via Yahoo), Microsoft has updated the wording it uses to define competitors of the Windows operating system. Microsoft now only states that Apple and Google are the biggest threats and has removed the section that said Linux was also a viable competitor."
2310 2011-08-12 22:14:48 <diki> well, linux is in a stand still
2311 2011-08-12 22:15:21 <b4epoche_> I can certainly see that from Microsoft
2312 2011-08-12 22:16:01 <neofutur> more or less 70% of the internet uses linux . . .
2313 2011-08-12 22:16:33 <marf_away> its the not visiblae part
2314 2011-08-12 22:16:47 <neofutur> ( based on latest netcraft data about active domains webservers )
2315 2011-08-12 22:16:57 <b4epoche_> and highly dependent on how you define 'the internet'
2316 2011-08-12 22:18:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea someone said it should be keypoolrefill because existing methods were noun-verb instead of verb-noun or something
2317 2011-08-12 22:19:05 <BlueMatt> (but that was pre-merge)
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2333 2011-08-12 22:38:56 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: the patch is enabled by the 'eligius' USE flag
2334 2011-08-12 22:39:50 <bbear> do I have to use MINIUPNP ?
2335 2011-08-12 22:39:54 <bbear> to build bitcoin I mean.
2336 2011-08-12 22:39:56 <luke-jr> bbear: no
2337 2011-08-12 22:40:02 <luke-jr> bbear: make USE_UPNP=
2338 2011-08-12 22:40:11 <luke-jr> (that's a null string, and it's AFTER make, not before)
2339 2011-08-12 22:40:40 <bbear> actually I just commented out the line where there is USE_UPNP:=0
2340 2011-08-12 22:40:47 <bbear> it seems to work well.
2341 2011-08-12 22:41:06 <bbear> I also use a personal compilation of wxgtk-2.9 that is not a system wide install.
2342 2011-08-12 22:41:09 <bbear> it works well.
2343 2011-08-12 22:41:25 <bbear> Does bitcoin make a static linking ?
2344 2011-08-12 22:41:45 <bbear> I mean, Do I have to keep the libs in the same folder to link to my bitcoin program ?
2345 2011-08-12 22:41:47 <phantomcircuit> bbear, for about half the libraries
2346 2011-08-12 22:41:57 <phantomcircuit> dynamic for the other half
2347 2011-08-12 22:42:07 <phantomcircuit> fun right?
2348 2011-08-12 22:42:08 <bbear> so it's dynamic linking.
2349 2011-08-12 22:42:17 <bbear> It doesn't matter. It was just a question.
2350 2011-08-12 22:42:40 <bbear> Actually I compiled wxgtk-2.9 very easily. It's a big library and long to compile.
2351 2011-08-12 22:42:50 <bbear> Fortunately the ./configure script works really well.
2352 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> em/include/wx-2.9 -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -DWXUSINGDLL -D__WXGTK__ -pthread -DGUI -o obj/ui.o ui.cpp
2353 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> ui.cpp: In member function âvirtual void CMainFrame::OnIconize(wxIconizeEvent&)â:
2354 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> ui.cpp:406:25: attention : âbool wxIconizeEvent::Iconized() constâ is deprecated (declared at /home/david/src/system/include/wx-2.9/wx/event.h:2150) [-Wdeprecated-declarations]
2355 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> ui.cpp:414:43: attention : âbool wxIconizeEvent::Iconized() constâ is deprecated (declared at /home/david/src/system/include/wx-2.9/wx/event.h:2150) [-Wdeprecated-declarations]
2356 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> ui.cpp: In function âvoid SetStartOnSystemStartup(bool)â:
2357 2011-08-12 22:43:15 <bbear> ui.cpp:1597:39: erreur: âclass boost::filesystem3::pathâ has no member named ânative_file_stringâ
2358 2011-08-12 22:43:19 <bbear> Ha
2359 2011-08-12 22:43:24 <bbear> it doesn't work.
2360 2011-08-12 22:43:47 <bbear> sorry, but I can't understand why it doesn't work like that. It seems to be related with boost.
2361 2011-08-12 22:44:00 <bbear> Does boost is required to install bitcoin ?
2362 2011-08-12 22:45:59 <lfm> bbear: yup
2363 2011-08-12 22:46:07 _Burgundy has joined
2364 2011-08-12 22:46:10 <BlueMatt> bbear: read the docs: make -f makefile.* USE_UPNP= will build without upnp
2365 2011-08-12 22:46:23 <BlueMatt> bbear: no, boost is not required, its static by default
2366 2011-08-12 22:46:27 <BlueMatt> so its only required to build
2367 2011-08-12 22:46:35 <bbear> well I cannot build but I don't understand why.
2368 2011-08-12 22:46:45 <bbear> It's not a UPNP problem, it's a boost problem.
2369 2011-08-12 22:46:50 <bbear> I have boost 1.47.
2370 2011-08-12 22:47:00 <lfm> oh build or install?
2371 2011-08-12 22:47:08 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2372 2011-08-12 22:47:13 <BlueMatt> have you googled the error?
2373 2011-08-12 22:47:17 <lfm> check the versions in build-unix.txt
2374 2011-08-12 22:47:41 <BlueMatt> 1.47 works fine on mingw here
2375 2011-08-12 22:47:48 <BlueMatt> never done 1.47 unix
2376 2011-08-12 22:48:07 ahihi2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2377 2011-08-12 22:48:58 <BlueMatt> bbear: lastly, it would be nice if you dont post more than one or two lines on a chan
2378 2011-08-12 22:49:02 <BlueMatt> just the error would do
2379 2011-08-12 22:49:17 <bbear> yes
2380 2011-08-12 22:49:25 abragin has quit ()
2381 2011-08-12 22:50:23 <bbear> This is the error I get : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/457466/
2382 2011-08-12 22:51:39 <bbear> Do you see what is the problem ?
2383 2011-08-12 22:51:46 <wardearia> Regarding luke's extra patch added to official bitcoin gentoo ebuild, https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=328391#c37 acknowledges it as well as something uncomfortable
2384 2011-08-12 22:51:59 <BlueMatt> yea "âclass boost::filesystem3::pathâ has no member named ânative_file_string'"
2385 2011-08-12 22:52:34 <lfm> native_file_string
2386 2011-08-12 22:52:42 E-sense has joined
2387 2011-08-12 22:53:17 <makomk> Change it from native_file_string to string.
2388 2011-08-12 22:53:46 <makomk> (It's what the offical Boost depreciated functionality list says to so anyway.)
2389 2011-08-12 22:56:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you need to set the bdb include path etc too
2390 2011-08-12 22:56:46 <BlueMatt> for what
2391 2011-08-12 22:56:56 <luke-jr> to build bitcoind
2392 2011-08-12 22:56:58 <luke-jr> or wxbitcoin
2393 2011-08-12 22:57:06 <BlueMatt> you do, no one else does
2394 2011-08-12 22:57:11 traviscj has joined
2395 2011-08-12 22:57:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: in general
2396 2011-08-12 22:57:26 <BlueMatt> or, Ive never seen anyone have to, nor have I after having built bitcoin on many machines
2397 2011-08-12 22:58:04 <lfm> if it is installed in default location it is found without extra paths for most distros
2398 2011-08-12 22:59:53 <BlueMatt> wow gavinandresen is getting productive...
2399 2011-08-12 23:00:24 <lfm> or from another point of veiw he is goofing off
2400 2011-08-12 23:01:04 <BlueMatt> well not sure what he was doing in Australia, but hes been busy today...
2401 2011-08-12 23:01:49 <gavinandresen> I was doing this in Australia: https://github.com/gavinandresen/Bitcoin-protocol-test-harness
2402 2011-08-12 23:02:08 <BlueMatt> I meant like why you were there, I know you were working
2403 2011-08-12 23:02:15 <BlueMatt> (not that I care)
2404 2011-08-12 23:02:17 <gavinandresen> (when I wasn't enjoying the beach...)
2405 2011-08-12 23:02:33 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2406 2011-08-12 23:02:42 <bbear> changing to string solves the problem.
2407 2011-08-12 23:05:12 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2409 2011-08-12 23:06:07 <bbear> and also dynamic linking worked as far I can see. I just hope bitcoin is running correctly now.
2410 2011-08-12 23:06:20 <bbear> oh yes it works. Great !
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2413 2011-08-12 23:07:40 <bbear> Well boost is just a big C++ library.
2414 2011-08-12 23:07:54 <BlueMatt> yep thats the idea
2415 2011-08-12 23:07:54 <bbear> Actually you use wxgtk just as a gui toolkit IFIUC
2416 2011-08-12 23:08:04 <lfm> bbear ya none of the static links are really needed
2417 2011-08-12 23:08:15 <BlueMatt> well wx2.9 is
2418 2011-08-12 23:08:37 <lfm> wx runs dynamic for me just fine
2419 2011-08-12 23:08:40 <bbear> Wouldn't it better to have a configure script that could build on (QT,wxGTK,GTK) at the choice of the user ?
2420 2011-08-12 23:08:45 <BlueMatt> (so people dont have to build wx themselves)
2421 2011-08-12 23:08:48 <bbear> fm: same at home.
2422 2011-08-12 23:08:58 <BlueMatt> bbear: absolutely, patches welcome
2423 2011-08-12 23:09:04 <BlueMatt> also, someone needs to write the guis
2424 2011-08-12 23:09:07 <BlueMatt> qt is written
2425 2011-08-12 23:09:47 <bbear> @BlueMatt : yes, great idea. Basically the idea behind this is to get the bitcoin client the more widely available with as less dependencies as possible. Do you think it's a fair idea ?
2426 2011-08-12 23:09:49 <lfm> ya for binary distro its nice to have those static links but if you system is set up for it they arnt needed
2427 2011-08-12 23:10:12 <BlueMatt> bbear: the current bitcoin client (with wx2.9 static linked) will download and run on pretty much any system
2428 2011-08-12 23:10:35 <BlueMatt> the only advantage would be that without wx2.9 dep bitcoin can be officially packaged in distros
2429 2011-08-12 23:10:41 <BlueMatt> which would be very, very nice
2430 2011-08-12 23:10:41 <bbear> @BlueMatt, yes I think so but it can be some times frustrating to have to download a statically linked program and to run it.
2431 2011-08-12 23:10:51 <BlueMatt> meh, its a fairly small binary
2432 2011-08-12 23:11:16 <bbear> BlueMatt that's definitely the idea, but no need to think of the distros purposes. It would really much better for portability of the code.
2433 2011-08-12 23:11:26 <BlueMatt> not really
2434 2011-08-12 23:11:27 <lfm> bbear huh? you mean just cuz of the size or what?
2435 2011-08-12 23:11:28 <bbear> Yes but I agree patches are needed.
2436 2011-08-12 23:12:10 <bbear> lfm: not the size, but you could hope to download a smaller binary. Actually it's related to size and security. I think the bitcoin base code should stay as small as possible.
2437 2011-08-12 23:12:35 <bbear> Because security of the bitcoin client is very important. That's why clearness of the design is really important.
2438 2011-08-12 23:13:01 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-2 build #6: ABORTED in 8 min 16 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-2/6/
2439 2011-08-12 23:13:02 <BlueMattBot> matt: Upgrade dependancies and tweak build process.
2440 2011-08-12 23:13:30 <lfm> bbear: ya, the main problem with wx is it needs 2.9 features but 2.9 is not widely used yet since it is designated a development version. perhaps if wx realeases wx 3.0 it will fix the issue
2441 2011-08-12 23:13:40 <bbear> Actually, 25485 lines of code is not really a big matter. But, still, if the code could stay as small and portable as possible, it would be better.
2442 2011-08-12 23:13:51 <bbear> lfm: yes, that also is strange.
2443 2011-08-12 23:13:54 <BlueMatt> static is more portable
2444 2011-08-12 23:14:04 <bbear> why do you need experimental features like wxgtk2.9
2445 2011-08-12 23:14:17 <BlueMatt> we dont need them, satoshi just thought we did
2446 2011-08-12 23:14:24 <BlueMatt> and no one has done a proper backporting
2447 2011-08-12 23:14:37 <BlueMatt> though backporting to wx2.8 actually works fine, but it needs to be done cleanly
2448 2011-08-12 23:14:52 agricocb has joined
2449 2011-08-12 23:14:54 <lfm> bbear certain new features in wx are only in 2.9, to do with international language support as I understand it
2450 2011-08-12 23:15:07 Cusipzzz has joined
2451 2011-08-12 23:15:09 <BlueMatt> lfm: satoshi thought that...
2452 2011-08-12 23:15:13 <BlueMatt> but its not entirely true
2453 2011-08-12 23:15:13 <bbear> lfm: o:) yes internalization is important.
2454 2011-08-12 23:15:15 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2455 2011-08-12 23:15:29 <BlueMatt> see: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/266
2456 2011-08-12 23:15:32 <bbear> well since satoshi disappeared.
2457 2011-08-12 23:15:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r64107464372b gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (15 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: update openrc start-stop-daemon syntax to use --user, and check for user configuration error (rpcpassword not set) http://tinyurl.com/3bm6teo
2458 2011-08-12 23:15:49 <BlueMatt> someone needs to do it cleanly, I just wanted to see if it worked (which it does)
2459 2011-08-12 23:16:27 <bbear> BlueMatt: well basically the idea would be to write several ui_.cpp : ui_qt.cpp, ui_wxgtk.cpp, etc.
2460 2011-08-12 23:16:52 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2461 2011-08-12 23:17:02 <bbear> BlueMatt: Do you think it's a good idea ?
2462 2011-08-12 23:17:10 vigilyn has joined
2463 2011-08-12 23:17:10 <BlueMatt> bbear: yes, I get the idea, and it is great...again patches welcome
2464 2011-08-12 23:17:21 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-qt already exists
2465 2011-08-12 23:17:53 <bbear> BlueMatt: you know I think to many things, but I cannot see what is the primary need of bitcoin. Is it autotools, is it gtk backend, etc ?
2466 2011-08-12 23:17:56 <bbear> I don't know.
2467 2011-08-12 23:18:07 <bbear> Well, a python module around bitcoin would be great also I think.
2468 2011-08-12 23:18:09 <lfm> bluematt did you test it with other languages?
2469 2011-08-12 23:18:11 <BlueMatt> autotools first if this is what you want
2470 2011-08-12 23:18:13 <tcatm> primary need: more developers
2471 2011-08-12 23:18:16 <luke-jr> bbear: afaik nobody cares to maintain wx
2472 2011-08-12 23:18:21 <BlueMatt> lfm: iirc yes, though I cant be 100% sure...
2473 2011-08-12 23:18:28 <luke-jr> bbear: Qt supports GTK environments, so that's fine too
2474 2011-08-12 23:18:28 <BlueMatt> been a while
2475 2011-08-12 23:18:54 <luke-jr> bbear: but probably better to help another client, since the Satoshi client devs don't want improvements, just bug fixes
2476 2011-08-12 23:19:12 <BlueMatt> stop trolling
2477 2011-08-12 23:19:20 <bbear> luke-jr: actually the .24 doesn't compile.
2478 2011-08-12 23:19:28 <bbear> without modifying by hand the source code.
2479 2011-08-12 23:19:30 <luke-jr> bbear: compiles fine here
2480 2011-08-12 23:19:47 <bbear> luke-jr: I think other clients are a good idea.
2481 2011-08-12 23:19:57 <lfm> bbear compiles for me, you were using a nonstandard version of boost
2482 2011-08-12 23:19:59 <bbear> Well, we need plenty of new bitcoin clients.
2483 2011-08-12 23:20:01 <luke-jr> boost 1.41 is minimum tho
2484 2011-08-12 23:20:07 <bbear> I use 1.47
2485 2011-08-12 23:20:12 <BlueMatt> as am i
2486 2011-08-12 23:20:15 <BlueMatt> (well on mingw)
2487 2011-08-12 23:20:20 <b4epoche_> wtf? http://snapplr.com/warf
2488 2011-08-12 23:20:31 <bbear> it's a deprecated functionnality that prevent to compile If I u c
2489 2011-08-12 23:21:08 <lfm> build-unix still recomends 1.40
2490 2011-08-12 23:21:31 <jrmithdobbs> most of the build docs are just wrong/dumb in several places and never get updated ;p
2491 2011-08-12 23:21:38 <bbear> lfm: that's mad. I mean, why would they stay behind like that.
2492 2011-08-12 23:21:53 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: most distros ship 1.40-1.42
2493 2011-08-12 23:21:55 <bbear> jrmithdobbs: actually the make file is totally hand-made.
2494 2011-08-12 23:22:12 <bbear> jrmithdobbs: yes but why should we based on 'most distros' or something like that.
2495 2011-08-12 23:22:14 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: that doesn't change my statement any
2496 2011-08-12 23:22:17 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: I work hard keeping those mostly up-to-date with how official binaries are built
2497 2011-08-12 23:22:19 <lfm> bbear its what they tested when they wrote the build-unix.txt file
2498 2011-08-12 23:22:41 <bbear> I find it strange because it's really important piece of code.
2499 2011-08-12 23:23:00 <bbear> PPL should test with any compiler any libs just to check if something break.
2500 2011-08-12 23:23:15 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya i think we need to mark those clearly as "official binary duplication build docs" because they're overkill and overly complicated for building for a specific system
2501 2011-08-12 23:23:28 <bbear> and that's strange to test with boost 1.40 and use wxgtk 2.9 experimental.
2502 2011-08-12 23:23:31 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2503 2011-08-12 23:23:39 <bbear> That's really unusual
2504 2011-08-12 23:23:47 <lfm> bbear yup strange
2505 2011-08-12 23:23:54 <jrmithdobbs> not strange at all
2506 2011-08-12 23:23:59 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: not at all true, the official binary replication docs are just "use gitian", those instructions are minimal for any debian/ubuntu system, osx system, or mingw system
2507 2011-08-12 23:24:17 <jrmithdobbs> at the time the builds started 1.40 was bleeding edge boost guys
2508 2011-08-12 23:24:34 <jrmithdobbs> so 1.40 boost + wx2.9 makes perfect sense
2509 2011-08-12 23:25:02 <lfm> progress on boost is greater than progress on wx it means
2510 2011-08-12 23:25:27 <BlueMatt> well yea, boost is like standard C++, wx is ...well not many people still use it
2511 2011-08-12 23:25:41 <BlueMatt> only python devs use wxPython
2512 2011-08-12 23:28:22 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: they're not though, on linux the build instructions (debian/ubuntu) are literally: apt-get install openssl-dev libwxgtk2.8-dev libdb-dev; cd src/; make USE_UPNP= || make USE_UPNP= bitcoind; for most people at least (ok 2.9 on ubuntu w/o the 2.8 backport patch ... i don't really build the gui)
2513 2011-08-12 23:28:48 <BlueMatt> thats what doc/build-unix.txt says
2514 2011-08-12 23:28:55 <lfm> my Ubuntu 10.04.3 LTS system still uses boost 1.40 as the standard
2515 2011-08-12 23:29:00 <BlueMatt> "apt-get install..." if you have to build yourself:...
2516 2011-08-12 23:29:08 <BlueMatt> official binaries are built on latest 10.04
2517 2011-08-12 23:29:50 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya but: $ wc -l build-unix.txt
2518 2011-08-12 23:29:50 <jrmithdobbs> 110 build-unix.txt
2519 2011-08-12 23:29:58 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: read it
2520 2011-08-12 23:30:03 <jrmithdobbs> it says basically that ... just over 110 lines
2521 2011-08-12 23:30:05 <jrmithdobbs> i have
2522 2011-08-12 23:30:31 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2523 2011-08-12 23:30:40 <jrmithdobbs> oh i left boost out of that list but w/e
2524 2011-08-12 23:30:52 <BlueMatt> it starts with apt-get install...apt-get install...
2525 2011-08-12 23:30:53 <BlueMatt> etc
2526 2011-08-12 23:30:53 <luke-jr> fwiw, I can confirm boost 1.46+ does not work with wxbitcoin
2527 2011-08-12 23:30:56 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r1b64e31b2cd4 gentoo/README: mention syncing layman http://tinyurl.com/3joskey
2528 2011-08-12 23:31:30 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: having extra stuff doesnt make it overkill if it says "you will never need to do this, but just in case here it is"
2529 2011-08-12 23:31:36 <lfm> what is wxbitcoin?
2530 2011-08-12 23:31:49 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: must be a unix/linux problem
2531 2011-08-12 23:31:59 <BlueMatt> lfm: what luke calls satoshi/original/reference client
2532 2011-08-12 23:32:05 <jrmithdobbs> it wasn't an attack man, it's mostly a symptom of the build system sucking in general but w/e
2533 2011-08-12 23:32:41 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: no, I was saying calling it overkill is stupid...yea build system is broken, but for the build system, build-unix.txt is the absolute minimum to build
2534 2011-08-12 23:33:00 <BlueMatt> I was pointing out that your statement was blatantly false, not that you were attacking me/bitcoin
2535 2011-08-12 23:33:17 <jrmithdobbs> no it is overkill.
2536 2011-08-12 23:33:22 <BlueMatt> how?
2537 2011-08-12 23:33:26 <jrmithdobbs> you go into specific build options for wx and such
2538 2011-08-12 23:33:52 <BlueMatt> " because they're overkill and overly complicated for building for a specific system"
2539 2011-08-12 23:33:53 traviscj has joined
2540 2011-08-12 23:34:04 <jrmithdobbs> out of scope for that document
2541 2011-08-12 23:34:04 <BlueMatt> no it just says "apt-get install" which is the bare minimum to build
2542 2011-08-12 23:34:23 <BlueMatt> not really, some people want to build deps themselves for security reasons
2543 2011-08-12 23:34:28 <BlueMatt> which satoshi clearly panders to
2544 2011-08-12 23:34:50 <jrmithdobbs> so those people can figure out how to build them
2545 2011-08-12 23:35:03 <lfm> and its pretty common to need to build wx2.9 for yourself
2546 2011-08-12 23:35:19 <jrmithdobbs> anyways, build-unix.txt is actually the *best* of them, i was more talking about the osx and windows ones
2547 2011-08-12 23:35:21 <BlueMatt> well my point was that having extra info doesnt mean that the instructions there are overkill, as they clearly arent
2548 2011-08-12 23:35:38 <BlueMatt> both of those are bare minimum as well (now)
2549 2011-08-12 23:35:45 <BlueMatt> osx now just says use macports if possible
2550 2011-08-12 23:35:55 <BlueMatt> windows, there is no way around building yourself
2551 2011-08-12 23:35:57 <jrmithdobbs> i know that was my update, ha
2552 2011-08-12 23:36:04 <jrmithdobbs> it's still overkill
2553 2011-08-12 23:36:11 <BlueMatt> no, its bare minimum
2554 2011-08-12 23:36:18 denisx_ has joined
2555 2011-08-12 23:36:23 <lfm> I like overkill
2556 2011-08-12 23:36:29 <BlueMatt> if you can find a single step in build-msw.txt that is unnecessary, fine
2557 2011-08-12 23:36:39 <BlueMatt> but there arent (or only one or two minor ones, maybe)
2558 2011-08-12 23:38:05 <lfm> I thought I heard reports of people building with virtual C compiler
2559 2011-08-12 23:38:30 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2560 2011-08-12 23:38:31 denisx_ is now known as denisx
2561 2011-08-12 23:38:37 <BlueMatt> virtual c compiler?
2562 2011-08-12 23:38:40 <BlueMatt> you mean visual?
2563 2011-08-12 23:38:49 <lfm> msvc++ whatever its called
2564 2011-08-12 23:38:59 <lfm> oh ok ya visual c
2565 2011-08-12 23:39:06 <BlueMatt> you can, but it caused problems with the gui (odd transparency)
2566 2011-08-12 23:39:20 <BlueMatt> so to build gui, you have to use gcc (usually)
2567 2011-08-12 23:41:27 <jrmithdobbs> did that wx2.8 backuport ever get merged?
2568 2011-08-12 23:41:37 <BlueMatt> no (for good reason)
2569 2011-08-12 23:41:41 <jrmithdobbs> s/backuport/backport/
2570 2011-08-12 23:41:45 <jrmithdobbs> what good reason?
2571 2011-08-12 23:41:53 <BlueMatt> it was like 1/2 copy/replace and could have been done cleanly
2572 2011-08-12 23:41:59 <BlueMatt> well mostly copy/paste
2573 2011-08-12 23:42:20 <jrmithdobbs> wx2.9 is never going to be included in anything stable and 3.0 is never going to be released because wx is dead
2574 2011-08-12 23:42:29 <BlueMatt> and bitcoin is moving to qt
2575 2011-08-12 23:42:31 mosi has quit (out!~mos@hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooge.dongs.dtegaming.com|Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2576 2011-08-12 23:42:50 <jrmithdobbs> some day
2577 2011-08-12 23:42:55 <BlueMatt> soon
2578 2011-08-12 23:43:17 <jrmithdobbs> why not pull that one change for the interim releases so it's easier to build for everyone?
2579 2011-08-12 23:43:30 <BlueMatt> not up to me
2580 2011-08-12 23:44:11 Clipse-b has joined
2581 2011-08-12 23:45:12 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2582 2011-08-12 23:45:13 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-2 build #7: FIXED in 25 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-2/7/
2583 2011-08-12 23:46:07 <jrmithdobbs> what's bitcoin-2?
2584 2011-08-12 23:46:17 <BlueMatt> a rename of Bitcoin for my ocd
2585 2011-08-12 23:46:36 <Nesetalis> o.O
2586 2011-08-12 23:46:41 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Test build #1: FAILURE in 1 min 23 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-Test/1/
2587 2011-08-12 23:46:54 <BlueMatt> arg, now Im gonna have to do the same for that project too...
2588 2011-08-12 23:46:59 <lfm> we havnt even got a bitcoin 1.0 yet
2589 2011-08-12 23:47:24 clr_ has joined
2590 2011-08-12 23:47:48 <bbear> lfm: that's not for today. I think the bitcoin needs more standardization to have a better code base.
2591 2011-08-12 23:48:06 <lfm> bbear: but he has bitcoin 2!
2592 2011-08-12 23:48:08 <bbear> I wonder for example if the ui.cpp uses primitives.
2593 2011-08-12 23:48:25 <bbear> I wonder how much bitcoin code there is in ui.cpp
2594 2011-08-12 23:48:28 <BlueMatt> well if you were here earlier, you would already know Im God, so Im build-testing version 2.0
2595 2011-08-12 23:48:35 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: too much
2596 2011-08-12 23:49:08 <lfm> bbear: ui includes command line ui I think
2597 2011-08-12 23:49:13 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: not as much as you'd guess, but there's still some calcs and shit that happened there that need to be abstracted (it's all for display purposes and such)
2598 2011-08-12 23:49:15 <BlueMatt> no, that noui.cpp
2599 2011-08-12 23:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> s/happened/happen/
2600 2011-08-12 23:49:58 <BlueMatt> but ui.cpp isnt too bad, its pretty good, has some stuff that could be abstracted but its pretty good
2601 2011-08-12 23:50:00 <bbear> actually a bitcoin lib would be better and could be ported to python for example.
2602 2011-08-12 23:50:09 <jrmithdobbs> ya ui.cpp is actually one of the better bits
2603 2011-08-12 23:50:18 <bbear> Once you got a python module with the base code, you will have plenty of python gui.
2604 2011-08-12 23:50:23 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: see, i say positive things occassionally
2605 2011-08-12 23:50:45 <BlueMatt> bbear: keep dreaming
2606 2011-08-12 23:50:51 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: backhanded
2607 2011-08-12 23:51:02 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: not the point
2608 2011-08-12 23:51:07 <bbear> I mean, the bitcoin core code is simple.
2609 2011-08-12 23:51:08 <BCBot> Stats: http://bit.ly/bitcoin-irc-stats
2610 2011-08-12 23:51:19 <bbear> You could reduce it to some primitives on your .bitcoin configuration folder.
2611 2011-08-12 23:51:35 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: heh, well when people talk shit about btcoin codebase, its mostly well-based, just not always 100% accurate and sometimes overstated...
2612 2011-08-12 23:51:37 <bbear> then you make a bitcoin-lib. You use it to produce as many gui as you want.
2613 2011-08-12 23:51:38 <lfm> bbear: ya thats why there is so many people doing bitcoinpython code already
2614 2011-08-12 23:51:53 marf_away has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2615 2011-08-12 23:51:57 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: you know this has been talked about a billion times right
2616 2011-08-12 23:51:59 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: talk is cheap
2617 2011-08-12 23:52:03 <bbear> lfm: but the bitcoinpython is well advanced ?
2618 2011-08-12 23:52:09 <BlueMatt> there are like 20 bitcoinpythons
2619 2011-08-12 23:52:11 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2620 2011-08-12 23:52:21 <BlueMatt> none of them very far along, and most of them abandoned
2621 2011-08-12 23:52:28 <bbear> jrmithdobbs: yes I guess. But the official bitcoin-lib, where is it ?
2622 2011-08-12 23:52:34 <lfm> bbear not what I said, just lots of people
2623 2011-08-12 23:52:39 <BlueMatt> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
2624 2011-08-12 23:52:46 <bbear> you know what, I think I am going to make a real bitcoin-lib.
2625 2011-08-12 23:52:54 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: have you really dug through the code much? it's actually pretty hard to split things up without breaking them
2626 2011-08-12 23:52:55 <BlueMatt> have fun
2627 2011-08-12 23:52:55 <bbear> Something with a documentation and primitives.
2628 2011-08-12 23:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: progress is being made.
2629 2011-08-12 23:53:18 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: genjix already has a libbitcoin that's not bad and mostly completely
2630 2011-08-12 23:53:21 <BlueMatt> the C++ code isnt great, but it works and its being worked on to split up nicely
2631 2011-08-12 23:53:22 <jrmithdobbs> s/completely/complete/
2632 2011-08-12 23:53:29 <BlueMatt> sipa with cwallet, more with net stuff...
2633 2011-08-12 23:53:31 <BlueMatt> you get the point
2634 2011-08-12 23:53:52 <jrmithdobbs> bbear: but it's not based on the original code and is licensed horribly
2635 2011-08-12 23:53:58 <jrmithdobbs> (fuck gplv3)
2636 2011-08-12 23:54:13 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2637 2011-08-12 23:54:16 <bbear> well we all agree that the best license is a public license , BSD-like.
2638 2011-08-12 23:54:16 * lfm likes gplv3
2639 2011-08-12 23:54:20 <jrmithdobbs> sorry (fuck agplv3 even harder)
2640 2011-08-12 23:54:23 <bbear> for bitcoin I mean.
2641 2011-08-12 23:54:31 <bbear> for a bitcoin-lib at least.
2642 2011-08-12 23:54:50 <bbear> you could make it lgpl for example, it would be nearly the same of a BSD license.
2643 2011-08-12 23:54:50 <Gekz_> i'm unsure how allowing closed source derivatives of the bitcoin client would be a benefit to the commnunity
2644 2011-08-12 23:55:03 <BlueMatt> libbitcoin isnt exactly near-complete, it still has quite a ways to go...not to say it doesnt look nice
2645 2011-08-12 23:55:03 <lfm> fuck tivo, fuck android
2646 2011-08-12 23:55:03 <bbear> Actually why not keep the current bitcoin license would be an enigma.
2647 2011-08-12 23:55:08 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: you like having to hire a lawyer to search patent filings for every code commit to actually ensure compliance?
2648 2011-08-12 23:55:31 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: gplv3 makes it financially impossible for individuals to comply with the license
2649 2011-08-12 23:55:34 <bbear> BlueMatt: you are interested in libbitcoin ?
2650 2011-08-12 23:55:47 <BlueMatt> bbear: Im talking about the existing C++ one
2651 2011-08-12 23:55:59 <bbear> BlueMatt: yes, but if it runs, so it's ok.
2652 2011-08-12 23:56:22 <BlueMatt> I can whip up a libbitcoin that runs really quick...it just wont do anything
2653 2011-08-12 23:56:23 <bbear> A lib is more easy to test than a bitcoin client. (isn't it ?)
2654 2011-08-12 23:56:33 <BlueMatt> thats where 99% of the current bitcoin "libs" are right now
2655 2011-08-12 23:56:34 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Test build #1: FAILURE in 6 min 18 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-Test/1/
2656 2011-08-12 23:56:39 <BlueMatt> arg...
2657 2011-08-12 23:56:40 <jrmithdobbs> Gekz_: it allows companies to write specialized code for services and such (think things like blockexplorer, etc)
2658 2011-08-12 23:57:02 <Gekz_> jrmithdobbs: GPL wouldn't stop that, while AGPL would.
2659 2011-08-12 23:57:15 <jrmithdobbs> Gekz_: and libbitcoin is agplv3
2660 2011-08-12 23:57:19 <bbear> well, the base code should be public.
2661 2011-08-12 23:57:27 <bbear> But we need port to php, python, perl as well.
2662 2011-08-12 23:57:34 <jrmithdobbs> Gekz_: hence my comments.
2663 2011-08-12 23:57:50 <jrmithdobbs> actually it's algplv3 or something
2664 2011-08-12 23:57:53 <Gekz_> jrmithdobbs: such services could simply share their code and get over it?
2665 2011-08-12 23:58:10 <BlueMatt> to be fair, iirc they said they would relicense it more liberally when it gets a bit further along
2666 2011-08-12 23:58:11 <jrmithdobbs> Gekz_: go cry to rms or something
2667 2011-08-12 23:58:30 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: ya i brow beat him into that ;p
2668 2011-08-12 23:58:32 <Gekz_> good retort, valid and succinct, like the rest of your argument.
2669 2011-08-12 23:58:38 b4epoche_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2670 2011-08-12 23:58:43 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: he'd have all the address/etc code already done if it'd been a sane license to begin with
2671 2011-08-12 23:59:13 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: don't need to search patents
2672 2011-08-12 23:59:19 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
2673 2011-08-12 23:59:21 <luke-jr> since all software patents are technically invalid
2674 2011-08-12 23:59:42 <BlueMatt> "technically invalid by my reading of the laws" != "invalid according to modern case law"