1 2011-08-16 00:01:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8febf57af0a8 cgminer/main.c: Keep options in alphabetical order.
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  28 2011-08-16 00:41:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r657812ada40d cgminer/util.c: Probe for slightly longer for when network conditions are lagging.
  29 2011-08-16 00:41:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rc53a7b0d2d28 cgminer/main.c: Only display the CPU algo when we're CPU mining.
  30 2011-08-16 00:41:24 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r426f72dec7bc cgminer/util.c: As we have keepalives now, blaming network flakiness on timeouts appears to have been wrong. Set a timeout for longpoll to 1 hour, and most other network connectivity to 1 minute.
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  49 2011-08-16 01:04:28 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8e38a149d84e cgminer/main.c: Simplify output code and remove HW errors from CPU stats.
  50 2011-08-16 01:04:30 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rcdece1f248e9 cgminer/main.c: Simplify code and tidy output.
  51 2011-08-16 01:04:31 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r939a0e02b7c0 cgminer/main.c: Only show cpu algo in summary if cpu mining.
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  62 2011-08-16 01:17:15 <Rabbit67890> NET SPLIT!!!!!!!!
  63 2011-08-16 01:18:08 <Plasma-> the horror
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  66 2011-08-16 01:26:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r53a4245a43c3 cgminer/main.c: Log summary at the end as per any other output.
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  74 2011-08-16 01:36:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r074b8193b270 cgminer/main.c: Flush output.
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  78 2011-08-16 01:38:53 <lovebtc_> hello everyone at online?
  79 2011-08-16 01:38:54 <lovebtc_> \
  80 2011-08-16 01:39:11 <lfm> hi
  81 2011-08-16 01:40:00 <lovebtc_> When to release the next version of the software？
  82 2011-08-16 01:40:22 <lfm> when its ready
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  86 2011-08-16 01:42:25 <lovebtc_> How many people responsible for software development?
  87 2011-08-16 01:43:15 denisx_ has joined
  88 2011-08-16 01:43:21 <lfm> hard to say really
  89 2011-08-16 01:43:44 <b4epoche_> no one seems to claim responsibility
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  94 2011-08-16 01:46:15 <RealSolid> btc being out developed by other chains
  95 2011-08-16 01:46:16 <lfm> Satoshi set the precident by disapearing
  96 2011-08-16 01:46:36 <lfm> RealSolid: what ones?
  97 2011-08-16 01:46:58 <lovebtc_> Transactions can be tracked using the BTC
  98 2011-08-16 01:47:01 <RealSolid> i0coin
  99 2011-08-16 01:47:27 wolfspraul has joined
 100 2011-08-16 01:47:37 <lfm> RealSolid: never heard of i0coin, whats it doing?
 101 2011-08-16 01:47:41 <luke-jr> i0coin is dumb
 102 2011-08-16 01:47:47 <luke-jr> lfm: it's ixcoin with a new chain
 103 2011-08-16 01:48:04 <lfm> never heard of ixcoin either
 104 2011-08-16 01:48:14 <RealSolid> i0coin has feature improvements over btc
 105 2011-08-16 01:48:17 <RealSolid> so its not really like ixcoin
 106 2011-08-16 01:48:20 <b4epoche_> racing ahead at a precarious pace like, eh, bitomat and mybitcoin
 107 2011-08-16 01:48:30 <luke-jr> RealSolid: like what?
 108 2011-08-16 01:48:51 wolfspraul has quit (Client Quit)
 109 2011-08-16 01:48:52 <RealSolid> 5min blocks, faster retargets, encrytped wallet
 110 2011-08-16 01:48:54 <luke-jr> lfm: ixcoin and i0coin are bitcoin forks that don't actually fix any problems, just change the block reward to 96 <unit>
 111 2011-08-16 01:49:02 <lovebtc_> Each transactions can be any one query
 112 2011-08-16 01:49:12 <luke-jr> RealSolid: oh, didn't know about those
 113 2011-08-16 01:49:48 <b4epoche_> and no need to worry about losing your i0coin or ixcoins since they're worthless
 114 2011-08-16 01:50:01 <lovebtc_> Buy a gun, drugs, terrorism funding
 115 2011-08-16 01:50:02 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: That is an advantage.
 116 2011-08-16 01:50:08 <Namegduf> :D
 117 2011-08-16 01:50:12 <b4epoche_> Namegduf:  indeed it is!
 118 2011-08-16 01:50:14 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 119 2011-08-16 01:50:26 <lfm> rush right out and get on that
 120 2011-08-16 01:50:32 <luke-jr> lovebtc_: don't group guns with drugs and terrorism plz
 121 2011-08-16 01:50:36 <luke-jr> lovebtc_: guns are actually legit
 122 2011-08-16 01:50:46 <Namegduf> Don't group drugs with guns and terrorism please
 123 2011-08-16 01:50:52 <Namegduf> They don't essentially hurt anyone else
 124 2011-08-16 01:51:01 <luke-jr> drugs always hurt people
 125 2011-08-16 01:51:03 wolfspraul has joined
 126 2011-08-16 01:51:05 <luke-jr> guns rarely
 127 2011-08-16 01:51:15 <lfm> hehe
 128 2011-08-16 01:51:29 <Namegduf> :P
 129 2011-08-16 01:51:43 <Namegduf> 5 minute blocks seem to be proof they don't understand bitcoin at all.
 130 2011-08-16 01:51:57 <b4epoche_> guns, cigarettes, and alcohol?
 131 2011-08-16 01:52:03 <Namegduf> 5 minute blocks means you just have to wait for 12 instead of 6 for the same level of confirmation.
 132 2011-08-16 01:52:06 <Namegduf> It doesn't *do* anything.
 133 2011-08-16 01:52:13 <lfm> Namegduf: yup
 134 2011-08-16 01:52:18 TheZimm has joined
 135 2011-08-16 01:52:23 <luke-jr> Namegduf: you get to 1 confirm sooner
 136 2011-08-16 01:52:28 <luke-jr> Namegduf: which DOES have value
 137 2011-08-16 01:52:34 <Namegduf> That's true.
 138 2011-08-16 01:52:36 <RealSolid> indeed
 139 2011-08-16 01:52:39 <b4epoche_> and if you're mybitcoin you get to 0 confirms sooner
 140 2011-08-16 01:52:41 <RealSolid> and orphan blocks only last 5mins instead of 10
 141 2011-08-16 01:52:50 <Namegduf> RealSolid: Yes, but they happen a lot more often.
 142 2011-08-16 01:52:59 <RealSolid> also if you have a drop off in mining significantly like with namecoin, its not as severe
 143 2011-08-16 01:53:02 <Namegduf> That's a *downside* to shorter times and one reason they're as long as they are.
 144 2011-08-16 01:53:26 <RealSolid> Namegduf: considering a block propogates through network in SECONDS
 145 2011-08-16 01:53:27 <b4epoche_> it's all trade-offs with people changing them because they think they're smarter than satoshi, et al.
 146 2011-08-16 01:53:31 <Namegduf> The shorter the time, the more likely a block is to happen during the (largely constant) network propagation time.
 147 2011-08-16 01:53:36 <RealSolid> its hardly going to make much difference 5min blocks from 10
 148 2011-08-16 01:53:55 <RealSolid> at most youll see a doubling of btc orphans, which is already very low
 149 2011-08-16 01:54:10 <Namegduf> It'll be more than a doubling.
 150 2011-08-16 01:54:12 <lfm> RealSolid: oh? how low is it?
 151 2011-08-16 01:54:13 <RealSolid> orphan blocks only a concern in the second range
 152 2011-08-16 01:54:24 <RealSolid> btc will later go to 5min blocks, if not 3
 153 2011-08-16 01:54:25 <b4epoche_> stupid thing is, 10 minutes or 5 minutes is still too long for business transactions
 154 2011-08-16 01:54:29 <Namegduf> And that completely counteracts and more the reduced length of orphan blocks.
 155 2011-08-16 01:54:33 owowo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 156 2011-08-16 01:54:35 <lfm> RealSolid: lol
 157 2011-08-16 01:54:50 <RealSolid> lfm: if it doesnt, it will be replaced
 158 2011-08-16 01:55:42 <lfm> b4epoche_ yup business would never work with 3 day transactions like cheque in the mail oh wait they worked fine!
 159 2011-08-16 01:55:48 <b4epoche_> no it won't because no one cares whether it's 1 minute or 10 minutes
 160 2011-08-16 01:56:07 <RealSolid> b4epoche: 5 mins is al ot better than 10, any way you put it, it will be a testbed for lower blocks
 161 2011-08-16 01:56:08 <b4epoche_> lfm:  you ever run a business that took checks?
 162 2011-08-16 01:56:20 <RealSolid> i think 3 or 2 will be what is ended ith
 163 2011-08-16 01:56:37 <RealSolid> b4epoche: no one cares?
 164 2011-08-16 01:56:48 <Namegduf> None of those are fast enough for instant transaction.
 165 2011-08-16 01:56:50 <b4epoche_> no, 3 minutes is still too long
 166 2011-08-16 01:56:50 <Namegduf> *transactions
 167 2011-08-16 01:56:57 <lfm> b4epoche I used to buy from some
 168 2011-08-16 01:57:00 <Namegduf> Other mechanisms will be used for those.
 169 2011-08-16 01:57:04 <b4epoche_> there will still need to be a middleman
 170 2011-08-16 01:57:13 <RealSolid> b4epoche: instant can never be done over p2p
 171 2011-08-16 01:57:22 <RealSolid> you need centralization for it
 172 2011-08-16 01:57:31 <b4epoche_> exactly…  so 3 minutes is really no different than 10 minutes
 173 2011-08-16 01:57:35 <RealSolid> either way, whoever does centralize btc/whatever for it will WANT short than 10min blocks
 174 2011-08-16 01:57:44 <RealSolid> its a big difference to allowing centralization
 175 2011-08-16 01:57:53 <Namegduf> That's nonsense.
 176 2011-08-16 01:58:03 <b4epoche_> no, once there's a middleman it won't matter if it's 3 minutes or 3 hours
 177 2011-08-16 01:58:05 <lfm> RealSolid: you are missing about 12 points.
 178 2011-08-16 01:58:06 <Namegduf> Right.
 179 2011-08-16 01:58:16 <RealSolid> b4epoche: its called risk
 180 2011-08-16 01:58:26 <RealSolid> the centralization place takes all of it
 181 2011-08-16 01:58:38 <RealSolid> the quicker it can get confirms the less risk they are placed
 182 2011-08-16 01:58:43 <Namegduf> I see no reason they'd need to take any risk.
 183 2011-08-16 01:58:47 raininja has joined
 184 2011-08-16 01:58:49 <Namegduf> I think your idea of what a middle man does is 1) Restricted  2) Not the same as everyone else's.
 185 2011-08-16 01:59:13 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  you've never processed a credit card or gotten paid that way have you?
 186 2011-08-16 01:59:13 <RealSolid> Namegduf: lol any risk? 3 hour blocks , a massive tx sitting there on 0 confs for 3 hours
 187 2011-08-16 01:59:18 <lovebtc_> Who has wrote bots program　used the api interface in mtgox site
 188 2011-08-16 01:59:20 <Namegduf> RealSolid: And?
 189 2011-08-16 01:59:21 <RealSolid> and they have to give up funds in the meanwhile for INSTANT sale
 190 2011-08-16 01:59:26 <Namegduf> No, they don't.
 191 2011-08-16 01:59:27 <RealSolid> you could rort the hell out of them
 192 2011-08-16 01:59:27 <lovebtc_> Who has wrote bots program　used the api interface in mtgox site?
 193 2011-08-16 01:59:34 <Namegduf> That's YOUR idea of what a "middleman" would do.
 194 2011-08-16 01:59:36 <Namegduf> Not anyone else's.
 195 2011-08-16 01:59:40 <RealSolid> whats yours then
 196 2011-08-16 01:59:57 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  have you ever accepted payment via credit card?
 197 2011-08-16 01:59:59 <RealSolid> someone is taking the risk, who is it
 198 2011-08-16 02:00:04 <raininja> so can anyone tell me how to let make assign a different library for openssl during building the git code?  it does not obey the -I option
 199 2011-08-16 02:00:05 <Namegduf> No one has to take the risk.
 200 2011-08-16 02:00:11 <Namegduf> There's other solutions.
 201 2011-08-16 02:00:12 <Namegduf> Y
 202 2011-08-16 02:00:16 <RealSolid> such as
 203 2011-08-16 02:00:26 <Namegduf> Like, say, the ones which are already available.
 204 2011-08-16 02:00:31 <RealSolid> example
 205 2011-08-16 02:00:38 <Namegduf> The one where you charge the middleman in advance.
 206 2011-08-16 02:00:42 <b4epoche_> there are fees built in…  that's why there are credit card processing fees, check fees, and there will be bitcoin processing fees
 207 2011-08-16 02:00:52 <RealSolid> Namegduf: haha
 208 2011-08-16 02:00:54 <Namegduf> For example, look at MtGox.
 209 2011-08-16 02:00:58 <lfm> raininja: the -I option is not for libs, -I is for includes
 210 2011-08-16 02:01:00 <Namegduf> Redeem codes are instant.
 211 2011-08-16 02:01:13 <Namegduf> But, they don't have to accept redeem codes.
 212 2011-08-16 02:01:18 <Namegduf> They COULD just see the payment is signed by MtGox
 213 2011-08-16 02:01:21 <RealSolid> ok so say i want to buy something RIGHT NOW and i have btc
 214 2011-08-16 02:01:27 <Namegduf> You're fucked, have fun.
 215 2011-08-16 02:01:27 <RealSolid> i deposit into "xxx" and wait hour(s)
 216 2011-08-16 02:01:32 <Namegduf> Yes, you do.
 217 2011-08-16 02:01:34 <RealSolid> geez your system is so nice
 218 2011-08-16 02:01:38 <RealSolid> so attractive to people
 219 2011-08-16 02:01:48 <raininja> lfm: thanks I try it
 220 2011-08-16 02:01:53 <b4epoche_> and you're willing to wait 3 minutes and the donut counter for your donut?
 221 2011-08-16 02:01:57 <Namegduf> RealSolid: Unlike yours, it is actually feasible.
 222 2011-08-16 02:02:02 <b4epoche_> s/and/at
 223 2011-08-16 02:02:13 <RealSolid> Namegduf: mine is feasible, and it will be the standard, because otherwise it will have no advantage over cc
 224 2011-08-16 02:02:15 <lfm> raininja: try what?
 225 2011-08-16 02:02:16 denisx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 226 2011-08-16 02:02:32 denisx has joined
 227 2011-08-16 02:02:37 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  you're trying to make btc and all it's derivatives into something that it is not
 228 2011-08-16 02:02:38 <RealSolid> people that think you can go BACKWARDs in features and have it be adopted are living in lala land
 229 2011-08-16 02:02:39 <b4epoche_> and never will be
 230 2011-08-16 02:02:54 <Namegduf> It wouldn't have advantages over CC anyway in terms of speed.
 231 2011-08-16 02:03:02 <RealSolid> yes it would
 232 2011-08-16 02:03:03 sgornick2 has joined
 233 2011-08-16 02:03:07 <Namegduf> No, it wouldn't.
 234 2011-08-16 02:03:12 <RealSolid> because the central agent gives INSTANT cash and takes the risk
 235 2011-08-16 02:03:19 <b4epoche_> how would a 3 minutes confirm have an advantage?
 236 2011-08-16 02:03:26 <Namegduf> CCs do that, except they don't really have any risk.
 237 2011-08-16 02:03:49 <Namegduf> Still instant.
 238 2011-08-16 02:03:54 <RealSolid> haha CCs do have risks, for the CENTRAL agent
 239 2011-08-16 02:04:02 <RealSolid> geez like i said, living in lala land
 240 2011-08-16 02:04:14 <lfm> bitcoin wasnt ever designed for donut counters. who told you it was?
 241 2011-08-16 02:04:18 <Namegduf> Look, let's not get off topic.
 242 2011-08-16 02:04:28 <RealSolid> Namegduf: at least you know when youre beat
 243 2011-08-16 02:04:28 <Namegduf> The point is, I was laughing at you for your ludicurously limited definition of middle man.
 244 2011-08-16 02:04:32 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  I'm guessing you're about 22 years old and never really done business before, right?
 245 2011-08-16 02:04:47 <Namegduf> I have successfully shown you another definition, the more normal definition, and the form that actually exists.
 246 2011-08-16 02:04:54 <Namegduf> You can say whatever you like about the future.
 247 2011-08-16 02:04:56 <Namegduf> I really don't care.
 248 2011-08-16 02:05:12 <RealSolid> right, you just argued with me for 10 minutes because you dont care
 249 2011-08-16 02:05:16 <RealSolid> keep trolling son
 250 2011-08-16 02:05:30 <Namegduf> I see you're new to IRC.
 251 2011-08-16 02:05:55 <lfm> RealSolid: ok so what are iocoins worth then?
 252 2011-08-16 02:06:02 <RealSolid> lfm: nothing atm
 253 2011-08-16 02:06:02 <Namegduf> But the bulk of that was on another topic. Anyways.
 254 2011-08-16 02:06:16 <RealSolid> i0coin being released tonight
 255 2011-08-16 02:06:23 <raininja> are there any other valid clients?
 256 2011-08-16 02:06:27 * b4epoche_ thinks he argued with you until he realized it's hopeless and you're either to incompetent to understand or just want to argue
 257 2011-08-16 02:06:42 <RealSolid> b4epoche: thanks for adding to the debate
 258 2011-08-16 02:07:18 <lfm> RealSolid: lol oh you want them to be worth something so you can clean up. good luck with that, you're not the first to think they can tweak btc and get rich
 259 2011-08-16 02:07:35 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  thanks for ignoring my questions about your experiences (or lack thereof)
 260 2011-08-16 02:07:37 <Namegduf> I should make a BTC derivative that takes it to its natural conclusion
 261 2011-08-16 02:07:44 <Namegduf> 1 minute blocks, 1000 coins per block
 262 2011-08-16 02:07:45 <RealSolid> lfm: no i dont really care about the money, but its good that there are some improvements heading into another client over btc
 263 2011-08-16 02:08:05 peck has joined
 264 2011-08-16 02:08:10 <lfm> 1 day blocks, sutable for interplanetary commerce
 265 2011-08-16 02:08:18 <Namegduf> Call it "FastCoins", make the logo like the BTC one but with racing stripes, and fins to lower air resistance.
 266 2011-08-16 02:08:27 delson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 267 2011-08-16 02:08:50 <RealSolid> yah well btc developers should take notice because if they sit on their thumbs whilst alt chains build new features in, it will be superceded no doubt
 268 2011-08-16 02:08:53 <b4epoche_> and a scoop for better air flow into the super charged engine
 269 2011-08-16 02:08:59 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Sounds great.
 270 2011-08-16 02:09:17 <luke-jr> RealSolid: the chain is not the problem
 271 2011-08-16 02:09:21 <luke-jr> RealSolid: the design is the problem
 272 2011-08-16 02:09:22 <Namegduf> RealSolid: They don't have a choice without breaking all existing clients. And I doubt it will be superceded.
 273 2011-08-16 02:09:25 <lfm> no doubt, well actually we do dobt it
 274 2011-08-16 02:09:26 <luke-jr> I don't see anyone trying to address that
 275 2011-08-16 02:09:37 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the design?
 276 2011-08-16 02:09:42 <b4epoche_> RealSolid:  there's a reason to be cautious here…  all you early adopters can keep losing your money
 277 2011-08-16 02:09:55 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Unless they sell out at the right time.
 278 2011-08-16 02:09:59 <Namegduf> Pump and dump away!
 279 2011-08-16 02:10:03 <RealSolid> luke-jr: i0coin has improved some facets of the btc design, so its a step in the right direction
 280 2011-08-16 02:10:12 <Namegduf> i0coin has done nothing design wise.
 281 2011-08-16 02:10:13 <luke-jr> RealSolid: perhaps
 282 2011-08-16 02:10:20 <luke-jr> RealSolid: but baby steps don't work here
 283 2011-08-16 02:10:23 <RealSolid> btc isnt that unusable, but yes it could be improved a fair bit
 284 2011-08-16 02:10:25 <Namegduf> It's tweaked some of the variables in the existing design.
 285 2011-08-16 02:10:34 AlonzoTG has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 286 2011-08-16 02:10:35 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the biggest improvement needed is developer tools
 287 2011-08-16 02:10:37 <lfm> RealSolid: and if other people dont see tham as improvments, well they're just stupid I guess.
 288 2011-08-16 02:10:38 <RealSolid> and better API
 289 2011-08-16 02:10:40 <luke-jr> I'd eliminate the block chain.
 290 2011-08-16 02:10:42 <Namegduf> Same chair, you just made the legs shorter.
 291 2011-08-16 02:10:44 <b4epoche_> and encrypted the wallet Namegduf
 292 2011-08-16 02:10:56 <Namegduf> That's software implementation, not system design.
 293 2011-08-16 02:10:56 <luke-jr> replace it with a transaction tree
 294 2011-08-16 02:11:17 <Namegduf> Bitcoin clients can have encrypted wallets.
 295 2011-08-16 02:11:17 <luke-jr> confirmations go from 0% (just sent) to 100% (entire network agrees)
 296 2011-08-16 02:11:23 <b4epoche_> better API?  oh, that's a serious design change
 297 2011-08-16 02:12:26 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: the Satoshi client already has encrypted wallets
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 301 2011-08-16 02:13:01 <b4epoche_> luke-jr:  not the official release, and RealSolid claimed that was one of the 'improvements' of iocoin
 302 2011-08-16 02:13:36 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: straw man
 303 2011-08-16 02:14:18 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
 304 2011-08-16 02:14:59 <b4epoche_> luke-jr:  indeed it is, but it's apparently an improvement associated with iocoin
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 306 2011-08-16 02:23:10 <RealSolid> i didnt say better API was associated with i0coin
 307 2011-08-16 02:23:13 <RealSolid> learn to read
 308 2011-08-16 02:24:01 <b4epoche_> learn about context:  [22:04:29] <RealSolid> and better API
 309 2011-08-16 02:24:14 <RealSolid> and what did i say above that
 310 2011-08-16 02:24:24 <RealSolid> "and" is following on from something isnt it?
 311 2011-08-16 02:24:33 <RealSolid> are you ESL?
 312 2011-08-16 02:24:59 <b4epoche_> hence, learn to put thoughts together…  but, oh, I guess you're new to IRC
 313 2011-08-16 02:25:17 <RealSolid> haha, right, its my fault for you failing to read, gotta love irc
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 316 2011-08-16 02:26:38 <b4epoche_> maybe if your grammar didn't sux so bad I wouldn't have misinterpretted what you said
 317 2011-08-16 02:27:49 <RealSolid> luke-jr: the biggest improvement needed is developer tools and better API
 318 2011-08-16 02:27:54 <Graet> yup lookimng closer and closer to the time tio start scamcoin - ppl will flock i can just tell :/
 319 2011-08-16 02:27:57 <RealSolid> if you have trouble understanding that, you need to go back to school
 320 2011-08-16 02:28:03 <b4epoche_> and if you read closely you'll also see that I never said better API was associated with iocoin
 321 2011-08-16 02:28:20 * b4epoche_ is already working on shitcoin
 322 2011-08-16 02:28:31 <Graet> scamcoin > *
 323 2011-08-16 02:28:38 <Graet> sorry fact
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 326 2011-08-16 02:30:16 <luke-jr> Graet: is your pool on scamcoin?
 327 2011-08-16 02:30:26 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 328 2011-08-16 02:30:30 <b4epoche_> shit, I just got approved to give a TEDx talk on bitcoin...
 329 2011-08-16 02:30:51 <Graet> not yet luke-jr
 330 2011-08-16 02:30:54 <b4epoche_> I'll be sure to mention iocoin, ixcoin, scamcoin, et al.
 331 2011-08-16 02:31:12 <Graet> sweet b4epoche
 332 2011-08-16 02:31:22 <Graet> mention ozco.in too :P
 333 2011-08-16 02:31:26 <luke-jr> no, Eligius
 334 2011-08-16 02:31:31 <b4epoche_> should be fun
 335 2011-08-16 02:31:33 <luke-jr> Eligius actually innovates!
 336 2011-08-16 02:31:49 <Namegduf> b4epoche_: Don't forget FastCoin
 337 2011-08-16 02:31:57 <luke-jr> or PizzaCoin
 338 2011-08-16 02:32:01 * b4epoche_ has never given a lecture with one of those fancy wireless microphone thingies 
 339 2011-08-16 02:32:02 <Graet> not every one says thats good luke-jr :P
 340 2011-08-16 02:32:09 <luke-jr> Graet: no?
 341 2011-08-16 02:32:16 <luke-jr> well, I'm happy to have an innovative pool
 342 2011-08-16 02:32:18 <luke-jr> :p
 343 2011-08-16 02:32:33 * b4epoche_ thinks he'll need to hire backup singers
 344 2011-08-16 02:32:43 <Graet> luke-jr how long have you been in btc? and you dont realise yet the diverse range of opinions?
 345 2011-08-16 02:33:09 <luke-jr> Graet: since January
 346 2011-08-16 02:33:15 <Graet> i'm happy for you to have an innovative pool too
 347 2011-08-16 02:33:31 <luke-jr> Graet: I wasn't aware anti-innovation was a real opinion
 348 2011-08-16 02:33:41 <twobits> Ludites?
 349 2011-08-16 02:33:49 <Graet> um oh hahahahahaha
 350 2011-08-16 02:34:30 <Graet> a "real' opinion - so one that agrees with yours?
 351 2011-08-16 02:34:47 <RealSolid> lawl
 352 2011-08-16 02:36:26 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 353 2011-08-16 02:37:20 <luke-jr> Graet: no, like one that people actually hold
 354 2011-08-16 02:38:21 <Graet> everyone has opinions luke-jr who are you or i (in our opinion) to judge them?
 355 2011-08-16 02:38:32 <Graet> or thiers?
 356 2011-08-16 02:39:00 <luke-jr> I didn't say I was judging them
 357 2011-08-16 02:39:06 <b4epoche_> luke-jr judges all, and makes innovations many seem to consider bad for the network
 358 2011-08-16 02:39:11 <luke-jr> I just didn't know people actually held an opinion against innovation
 359 2011-08-16 02:39:14 <Graet> ok then define "real opinion"
 360 2011-08-16 02:39:28 <luke-jr> Graet: "real opinion" = an opinion actually held by a real human being
 361 2011-08-16 02:39:45 <Graet> oh as oposed to a nick on irc?
 362 2011-08-16 02:39:54 <luke-jr> as opposed to an opinion that nobody holds at all
 363 2011-08-16 02:39:59 <Graet> lol
 364 2011-08-16 02:40:03 <lfm> some call it "against inovation" and some call it "respect for tradition"
 365 2011-08-16 02:40:07 <luke-jr> like the opinion that the Earth orbits Mars.
 366 2011-08-16 02:40:23 <luke-jr> nobody believes that.
 367 2011-08-16 02:40:23 vragnaroda has joined
 368 2011-08-16 02:40:37 <lfm> nope, its on the back of a giant turtle
 369 2011-08-16 02:40:57 <luke-jr> lfm: turtles all the way down?
 370 2011-08-16 02:40:59 <Graet> no some mythical being invented it all
 371 2011-08-16 02:41:19 <Graet> anyway, its been fun but i have other stuff to do
 372 2011-08-16 02:41:21 <Graet> l8rs
 373 2011-08-16 02:41:27 <lfm> bye
 374 2011-08-16 02:41:44 suriv_ has joined
 375 2011-08-16 02:41:50 <Graet> :)
 376 2011-08-16 02:41:55 <lianj> save the cheerleader
 377 2011-08-16 02:42:50 <Graet> shh thats what i'm off to do ;)
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 398 2011-08-16 03:15:36 <sacarlson> seems like bitcoin is getting more blocks per minit lately
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 416 2011-08-16 03:42:22 <nanotube> sacarlson: difficulty went down recently
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 432 2011-08-16 04:11:34 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 433 2011-08-16 04:11:37 <gribble> Current Blocks: 141139 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 1996 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 4 days, 19 hours, 19 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1401035.52308756
 434 2011-08-16 04:11:44 <luke-jr> O.O
 435 2011-08-16 04:11:54 <luke-jr> I know it's inaccurate, but a drop prediction already?
 436 2011-08-16 04:12:37 <nanotube> some unlucky blocks will make it move
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 440 2011-08-16 04:19:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: FYI, cgminer seems to be dropping support for CPU miners
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 460 2011-08-16 05:16:22 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r7c62c9b5e56b cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: Add a linux-usb-cgminer guide courtesy of Kano.
 461 2011-08-16 05:16:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r81d718a256c6 cgminer/NEWS: Update news for 1.5.5.
 462 2011-08-16 05:16:24 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6e6d7176ad49 cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: It's 8, not cool 8)
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 466 2011-08-16 05:32:29 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-127-144-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
 467 2011-08-16 05:36:20 datagutt_ is now known as datagutt
 468 2011-08-16 05:41:27 <shadders> DiabloD3: how long does diablominer hold on to work for by default if pool is LP enabled by no rollntime?
 469 2011-08-16 05:52:53 Dagger3 has quit (Quit: Quitting)
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 473 2011-08-16 06:00:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * d2d728728bc5 r26 / (6 files in 2 dirs):
 474 2011-08-16 06:00:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - add check for duplicate solution on submit
 475 2011-08-16 06:00:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - changed 'stale-work' to 'stale' for pushpool compatibility
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 481 2011-08-16 06:24:27 <DiabloD3> shadders: 5 seconds
 482 2011-08-16 06:24:44 <DiabloD3> no wait
 483 2011-08-16 06:24:48 <DiabloD3> I think 60
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 486 2011-08-16 06:26:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r41a4be7dff68 cgminer/configure.ac: Bump version number.
 487 2011-08-16 06:26:24 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * re2a049465337 cgminer/README: Friendly reminder.
 488 2011-08-16 06:26:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r05dadc90512a cgminer/README: Add pkg-config to listed dependencies.
 489 2011-08-16 06:26:50 <shadders> thx... just trying to work out why diablo reports stales on from the same pool where guiminer reports none..
 490 2011-08-16 06:27:34 <shadders> reports more than combined unknown-work and stales in log...
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 504 2011-08-16 07:16:24 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4daca363f0f0 cgminer/README: Recommend O2 instead of O3 since it can make windows binaries fail.
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 507 2011-08-16 07:26:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r58eb4d585995 cgminer/Makefile.am: Add bench_block to makefile.
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 514 2011-08-16 07:35:32 <quellhorst> so why were fees added to the bitcoin client recently?
 515 2011-08-16 07:36:07 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 516 2011-08-16 07:36:17 <quellhorst> and the client is also doing some rounding up to higher fees than the "required amount"!
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 535 2011-08-16 08:36:46 <[Tycho]> Nice fees I got there... http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000000b536694efbd2b78574b489c8c8e4b27a9c9fbf24fdf61cf73b
 536 2011-08-16 08:37:50 <Nesetalis> o.O
 537 2011-08-16 08:38:11 <Nesetalis> some one moving ALOT of bitcoins
 538 2011-08-16 08:38:55 <Joric> 26 thousands
 539 2011-08-16 08:40:06 slush has joined
 540 2011-08-16 08:44:11 <jeremias> fee 16 bitcoins?
 541 2011-08-16 08:44:19 <jeremias> why would anyone put a fee like that?
 542 2011-08-16 08:44:26 <Nesetalis> likely had to
 543 2011-08-16 08:44:38 <Nesetalis> based on KB
 544 2011-08-16 08:44:59 <Nesetalis> was almost a meg
 545 2011-08-16 08:45:21 <jeremias> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/2ac591ce643f96fa431712595363a418809cb866fba39ec68c2170c648eb472c
 546 2011-08-16 08:45:23 <jeremias> this?
 547 2011-08-16 08:45:30 <jeremias> Size?: 977 bytes
 548 2011-08-16 08:45:30 <jeremias> Fee?: 16
 549 2011-08-16 08:45:48 <jeremias> size is only 977 bytes and fee is 16 bitcoins... lol
 550 2011-08-16 08:45:49 <Nesetalis> ops miss read
 551 2011-08-16 08:45:58 <Nesetalis> thought it said 977kb not bytes
 552 2011-08-16 08:46:03 <jeremias> makes no sense to me
 553 2011-08-16 08:46:07 <edcba> hidden transaction through fee :)
 554 2011-08-16 08:46:22 <jeremias> lol, to a random receiver? :D
 555 2011-08-16 08:46:35 <jeremias> some lucky miner
 556 2011-08-16 08:46:40 <edcba> not if receiver is only one to know about that transaction
 557 2011-08-16 08:46:54 <jeremias> well yeah...
 558 2011-08-16 08:47:07 <jeremias> great way to launder bitcoins :D
 559 2011-08-16 08:47:17 <jeremias> only a pretty slow way if you use fees like that...
 560 2011-08-16 08:47:23 <edcba> indeed
 561 2011-08-16 08:47:46 <jeremias> move illegally obtained bitcoins to miner bitcoins...
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 565 2011-08-16 08:56:06 <neofutur> hi all, i m having a look at the bitcoind options ( bitcoind --help  )
 566 2011-08-16 08:56:27 <neofutur> I can specify -gen but theres no option to specify the number of CPU to use ?
 567 2011-08-16 08:56:56 <neofutur> like setgenerate <generate> [genproclimit]
 568 2011-08-16 09:01:57 <jeremias> lol, why would you want to generate coins with CPU in the first place?
 569 2011-08-16 09:02:10 <jeremias> it's waste of electricity
 570 2011-08-16 09:02:26 <neofutur> not your business
 571 2011-08-16 09:02:33 <neofutur> nd not my question
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 589 2011-08-16 09:20:49 <graingert> what's the estimate for the 0.4 release date?
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 604 2011-08-16 09:51:39 <marf_away> how much more unsave would bitcoin be with 5 minint blocks?
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 607 2011-08-16 09:52:57 <kinlo> marf_away: you would halve the difficulty, but I think it will not be that much unsafer...
 608 2011-08-16 09:53:04 <Graet> it would be exactly the same unsave
 609 2011-08-16 09:53:12 <kinlo> you would have more orphans
 610 2011-08-16 09:53:18 <kinlo> and faking a block will be easyer
 611 2011-08-16 09:53:19 <marf_away> much more?
 612 2011-08-16 09:53:26 <kinlo> so you'd have to double your confirmations
 613 2011-08-16 09:54:01 <marf_away> but the current state is bad
 614 2011-08-16 09:54:08 <marf_away> 30 minits and more
 615 2011-08-16 09:54:11 <marf_away> without blocks
 616 2011-08-16 09:54:47 <kinlo> marf_away: and that's bad why?
 617 2011-08-16 09:54:58 <kinlo> at this moment we don't do that many transactions yet
 618 2011-08-16 09:55:21 <marf_away> it takes to long to get money from a to b
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 620 2011-08-16 09:56:11 <kinlo> marf_away: there will always be a delay... if you want something instant, you'll have to use something else then bitcoin
 621 2011-08-16 09:56:15 <marf_away> maybe dont use the median, but an lowerbound
 622 2011-08-16 09:56:27 <marf_away> for difficulty
 623 2011-08-16 09:56:45 <kinlo> I'm not following
 624 2011-08-16 09:57:02 <ThomasV> hi, did someone manage to compile genjix's libbitcoin ?
 625 2011-08-16 09:57:43 <marf_away> make difficulty that way, that probability for break bigger than 20 minits is below 1%
 626 2011-08-16 09:58:03 <marf_away> hm dont know never mind
 627 2011-08-16 09:58:22 <marf_away> iam just unhappy, and hope there will be a solution
 628 2011-08-16 10:01:29 <graingert> marf_away: yeah out of band transaction
 629 2011-08-16 10:01:32 <graingert> s
 630 2011-08-16 10:01:56 <graingert> or accepting 0 confirms for trivial payments
 631 2011-08-16 10:02:05 <graingert> anyway it's still faster than credit cards
 632 2011-08-16 10:02:18 <vegard> does anybody know why we collect transactions in blocks rather than just making every transaction a new block?
 633 2011-08-16 10:02:19 <graingert> for time between purchase claim and it being impossible to reverse
 634 2011-08-16 10:02:43 <graingert> vegard: because each block only contains the merkle root of a set of tx's
 635 2011-08-16 10:02:55 <vegard> would it be too difficult to make transactions then?
 636 2011-08-16 10:03:05 <graingert> obv
 637 2011-08-16 10:03:15 <graingert> also each block has at least one tx in anyway
 638 2011-08-16 10:03:52 <vegard> I mean: why the concept of blocks rather than just transactions? (each transaction would include the nonce, etc.)
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 640 2011-08-16 10:04:15 <graingert> vegard: otherwise you'd have to be a miner to make transactions
 641 2011-08-16 10:04:23 <vegard> it's to distribute the cost of searching to the whole network, right?
 642 2011-08-16 10:04:25 <graingert> vegard: go read the paper
 643 2011-08-16 10:04:28 <vegard> heh
 644 2011-08-16 10:04:36 <vegard> I have read the paper :)
 645 2011-08-16 10:04:41 <graingert> read it some more
 646 2011-08-16 10:04:52 <graingert> meditate on its glory
 647 2011-08-16 10:05:57 <vegard> I guess my next question was: what's wrong with having to be a miner to make transactions?
 648 2011-08-16 10:06:08 <vegard> but I will read it some more.
 649 2011-08-16 10:06:32 <graingert> mining is like digging for gold
 650 2011-08-16 10:06:37 <graingert> and transactions is sending gold
 651 2011-08-16 10:06:44 <graingert> once you have dug up gold
 652 2011-08-16 10:06:49 <graingert> you don't have to dig it up again
 653 2011-08-16 10:06:54 <graingert> to give it to someone else
 654 2011-08-16 10:07:09 <graingert>  what you are thinking of is more like hashcash
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 660 2011-08-16 10:19:06 <wardearia> Can someone tell me the next four decimals for how many bitcoins will exist? 20,999,999.9769????
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 663 2011-08-16 10:21:49 <_Matthew_> Howdy guys.
 664 2011-08-16 10:23:57 <_Matthew_> I have a question regarding using Bitcoin for innercorporate trading and transactions.
 665 2011-08-16 10:23:59 <_Matthew_> Got a large conglomerat that wants to adopt Bitcoin with a separate block chain for use as a strictly intercompany transactions medium. I have been told due to the centralized manner in which this would operate, it would actually be dangerous, inefficient and something like "Open Transactions" would be much more suitable for the task.
 666 2011-08-16 10:24:06 <_Matthew_> They insist on using it and claim that the security won't be an issue because they will have tens of thousands of PCs running it in their companies.
 667 2011-08-16 10:24:42 <_Matthew_> Is this feasible, or am I missing something? If I am missing something, can anyone help me explain it to them why it won't work as they wish for it so that we can all save time and money trying?
 668 2011-08-16 10:25:09 <gjs278> you would have to have computers mine to find blocks
 669 2011-08-16 10:25:15 <gjs278> and you would have delays on transactions
 670 2011-08-16 10:25:21 <gjs278> of at least 10 minutes
 671 2011-08-16 10:25:46 <gjs278> and you would have fees too
 672 2011-08-16 10:25:51 <_Matthew_> I dont think they're worried about the delays
 673 2011-08-16 10:26:40 <Graet> _Matthew_ if they ' insist on using it " tell them to find someone that understands BTC to implement it
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 675 2011-08-16 10:27:33 <_Matthew_> Graet, thank goodness you're here.
 676 2011-08-16 10:27:40 <_Matthew_> I explained to them what you had mentioned before.
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 678 2011-08-16 10:27:49 <_Matthew_> They said that it wouldn't be a problem
 679 2011-08-16 10:27:59 <_Matthew_> They said that they are obsessed with just using it anyway
 680 2011-08-16 10:28:13 <_Matthew_> Their bottom line is that they don't want it to be a part of the main block chain
 681 2011-08-16 10:28:19 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: erm
 682 2011-08-16 10:28:24 <DiabloD3> why dont they just use the main block chain?
 683 2011-08-16 10:28:27 <Graet> cool, but they would need someone with a deep understanding to implement and oversee it
 684 2011-08-16 10:28:41 * MrTiggr everyone's here _Matthew_ 
 685 2011-08-16 10:28:41 <_Matthew_> because they want to transfer funds internally, overseas as well
 686 2011-08-16 10:28:44 <DiabloD3> so/
 687 2011-08-16 10:28:55 <DiabloD3> they can transfer it overseas BETTER with the main block chain
 688 2011-08-16 10:29:03 <_Matthew_> in the millions of dollars a month range
 689 2011-08-16 10:29:04 <DiabloD3> they no longer have to maintain the integrity of their own chain
 690 2011-08-16 10:29:08 <Graet> imo they dont understand btc either, thats why its hard for them and _Matthew_ to work it out ;)
 691 2011-08-16 10:29:09 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: so?
 692 2011-08-16 10:29:44 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: thats like a drop in the bucket.
 693 2011-08-16 10:29:47 <_Matthew_> Wouldn't buying millions of dollars a month in bitcoin and then turning around and selling them cause a market issue and or some risk on their part?
 694 2011-08-16 10:30:00 <DiabloD3> why would they sell them?
 695 2011-08-16 10:30:05 <_Matthew_> They don't want Bitcoin
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 697 2011-08-16 10:30:14 <_Matthew_> They want to use it as a device for sending fiat
 698 2011-08-16 10:30:16 gjs278 has joined
 699 2011-08-16 10:30:18 <DiabloD3> honestly, we dont want their business.
 700 2011-08-16 10:30:48 <DiabloD3> they have a very large misunderstanding of how bitcoin works
 701 2011-08-16 10:31:02 <_Matthew_> I apparently did too
 702 2011-08-16 10:31:03 <DiabloD3> the more cpu power you have, the safer bitcoin is
 703 2011-08-16 10:31:09 <DiabloD3> private chains are inherently unsafe.
 704 2011-08-16 10:31:12 <_Matthew_> I am learning more thanks to you guys but I stilldon't know how to explain it
 705 2011-08-16 10:31:16 <Graet> i made that point b4 DiabloD3
 706 2011-08-16 10:31:29 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: why would they _sell_ the btc if its for internal use?
 707 2011-08-16 10:31:32 <Graet> spent hours last night trying to help _Matthew_ understand
 708 2011-08-16 10:31:40 <_Matthew_> lol
 709 2011-08-16 10:31:44 <DiabloD3> just do all the business in bitcoin internally, just keep passing the btc around.
 710 2011-08-16 10:31:45 <_Matthew_> less than 1 hour :P
 711 2011-08-16 10:32:00 <_Matthew_> But then they are open to market fluctation and thus value risk
 712 2011-08-16 10:32:05 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: nope
 713 2011-08-16 10:32:09 <_Matthew_> I think what they want is something like Open Transactions
 714 2011-08-16 10:32:11 <DiabloD3> THEY dont have to value btc realistically.
 715 2011-08-16 10:32:21 <DiabloD3> they internally can just say 1 btc == 1000 USD
 716 2011-08-16 10:32:24 <DiabloD3> and ignore what the market says
 717 2011-08-16 10:32:26 <_Matthew_> Ah
 718 2011-08-16 10:32:29 <_Matthew_> I see what you're saying
 719 2011-08-16 10:32:35 <DiabloD3> its a token
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 721 2011-08-16 10:32:38 <_Matthew_> So use the main block chain for security,
 722 2011-08-16 10:32:47 <_Matthew_> but internally redefine the market value
 723 2011-08-16 10:32:52 <DiabloD3> yup.
 724 2011-08-16 10:32:54 <_Matthew_> or a 'sub value'
 725 2011-08-16 10:32:56 <_Matthew_> Genius.
 726 2011-08-16 10:33:04 <_Matthew_> That would handle both issues presented earlier.
 727 2011-08-16 10:33:20 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: btw, they may get what they want anyhow
 728 2011-08-16 10:33:30 <DiabloD3> 1 btc may eventually equal 1000 usd
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 730 2011-08-16 10:33:57 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: and any coins they generate themselves are theirs to keep
 731 2011-08-16 10:34:03 <DiabloD3> they dont HAVE to buy into the system
 732 2011-08-16 10:34:12 <DiabloD3> its just faster to buy btc already for sale
 733 2011-08-16 10:34:21 <_Matthew_> So as long as they set their own risk for lets say $10 for 1 BTC
 734 2011-08-16 10:34:25 <_Matthew_> and are willing to lose that $10
 735 2011-08-16 10:34:34 <_Matthew_> Then can redefine the market value themselves internally
 736 2011-08-16 10:34:40 <DiabloD3> yup
 737 2011-08-16 10:34:40 <_Matthew_> Still use BTC to its fullest
 738 2011-08-16 10:34:50 <_Matthew_> But hold on
 739 2011-08-16 10:34:53 <DiabloD3> they just need to make sure enough of their machines can contact the outside world
 740 2011-08-16 10:35:01 <DiabloD3> well, actually, one
 741 2011-08-16 10:35:04 <_Matthew_> that means that if someone wants to be really rich in their internal departments,
 742 2011-08-16 10:35:11 <_Matthew_> all they'd need to do is buy outside market BTC
 743 2011-08-16 10:35:14 <_Matthew_> and bring it in
 744 2011-08-16 10:35:16 <_Matthew_> -_-;;;
 745 2011-08-16 10:35:20 <DiabloD3> yes, which would cause a market spike
 746 2011-08-16 10:35:28 <DiabloD3> which would increase the value of btc.
 747 2011-08-16 10:35:31 <_Matthew_> Then that won't work again
 748 2011-08-16 10:35:37 <DiabloD3> yes and no
 749 2011-08-16 10:35:45 <DiabloD3> no one says you have to hand out actual bitcoin clients.
 750 2011-08-16 10:35:50 <_Matthew_> Right
 751 2011-08-16 10:35:50 <Graet> _Matthew_ [23:47:56] <_Matthew_> Well some dude on the newbies [02:26:52] <_Matthew_> Is there a way for th  from 1st q till end sorry man it was hours
 752 2011-08-16 10:36:04 <_Matthew_> ?
 753 2011-08-16 10:36:16 <_Matthew_> When did I say that?
 754 2011-08-16 10:36:17 <_Matthew_> lol
 755 2011-08-16 10:36:22 <DiabloD3> you could easily hand out unmarked bitcoin clients that just up the value *10 blindly
 756 2011-08-16 10:36:23 <_Matthew_> Was that English?
 757 2011-08-16 10:36:51 <Graet> last night my time _Matthew_ you dont remember the discussion?
 758 2011-08-16 10:36:55 <DiabloD3> (and /10 the other way)
 759 2011-08-16 10:37:10 <DiabloD3> or just create a "fakecoin" banking site for internal use
 760 2011-08-16 10:37:13 <_Matthew_> Graet: I remember it perfectly. And to this moment I still agree that open Transactions is a better way to go
 761 2011-08-16 10:37:33 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: why dont they care about deflation, btw?
 762 2011-08-16 10:37:42 <DiabloD3> it'd increase internal value quite a lot over time
 763 2011-08-16 10:37:44 <_Matthew_> but in this particular situation, the potential benefits to the Bitcoin economy are too high to just call them 'silly' and walk away
 764 2011-08-16 10:37:51 <_Matthew_> It's downright irresponsible to act that way
 765 2011-08-16 10:38:08 <DiabloD3> well, the cryptography system works EXTREMELY well
 766 2011-08-16 10:38:09 <Graet> well they need educating
 767 2011-08-16 10:38:09 <_Matthew_> If a multimillion dollar company wants to use Bitcoin, shouldn't everyone be pitching it to explain/help?
 768 2011-08-16 10:38:19 <DiabloD3> yes
 769 2011-08-16 10:38:25 <Graet> that depends
 770 2011-08-16 10:38:30 <_Matthew_> Yes, but since I'm the one they contacted, I'm trying to get the education. I'd GLADLY hand them over to someone else who wants to explain
 771 2011-08-16 10:38:30 <DiabloD3> but a multimillion dollar company has to also realize they would be a tiny fraction of the market
 772 2011-08-16 10:38:36 <DiabloD3> bigger in btc land than the real world, but still small.
 773 2011-08-16 10:38:44 <_Matthew_> But as I can see, the general attitude is somewhat of a 'they don't understand, fuck em'
 774 2011-08-16 10:38:45 <Graet> they want a private blockchain - how does that help btc?
 775 2011-08-16 10:38:48 <_Matthew_> Unless I'm reading it wrong.
 776 2011-08-16 10:38:58 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: well, trying to subvert btc is not a good idea
 777 2011-08-16 10:39:01 <DiabloD3> which is what they're trying
 778 2011-08-16 10:39:02 <_Matthew_> that's just it-- I'm not sure if a private block chain is necessary
 779 2011-08-16 10:39:15 <_Matthew_> That's just what THEY are requesting
 780 2011-08-16 10:39:26 <DiabloD3> the most valuable thing btc currently has is the block chain
 781 2011-08-16 10:39:38 <_Matthew_> I just need some good arguments and solutions for what they want to benefit us all equally
 782 2011-08-16 10:39:40 <DiabloD3> even if I store things that are not financial transactions, it is still very valuable
 783 2011-08-16 10:39:43 <Graet> how much are they prepared to spend to change all thier internal systems and employ someone to oversee thier pools and miners?/
 784 2011-08-16 10:39:51 <_Matthew_> dumb amounts of money
 785 2011-08-16 10:40:21 <_Matthew_> Me and 4 others spent a few days on and off writing up a simple overview/proposal
 786 2011-08-16 10:40:27 <Graet> tell them to email graet@ozco.in - i'll drain them of dumb amounts of money and get it setup then
 787 2011-08-16 10:40:30 <_Matthew_> They accepted it, but then you guys told us it was ridiculous
 788 2011-08-16 10:40:32 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: if they're worried about spiking market prices, they could be buying stuff for the next year
 789 2011-08-16 10:40:43 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: okay like, do you know what you are paying us miners for?
 790 2011-08-16 10:40:50 <DiabloD3> you are renting computer time from us.
 791 2011-08-16 10:40:58 <Graet> _Matthew_ a proposal based on incorrect/uninformed info is worthless
 792 2011-08-16 10:41:01 <_Matthew_> How so?
 793 2011-08-16 10:41:03 <DiabloD3> its no different than, say, going to amz and getting ec2 instances.
 794 2011-08-16 10:41:10 <_Matthew_> If you stop generating coins does bitcoin die?
 795 2011-08-16 10:41:16 <DiabloD3> yes.
 796 2011-08-16 10:41:17 <DiabloD3> basically.
 797 2011-08-16 10:41:24 <DiabloD3> if we stop maintaining the chain, bitcoin is dead.
 798 2011-08-16 10:41:35 <DiabloD3> it takes a LOT of computation time to maintain the chain
 799 2011-08-16 10:41:40 <DiabloD3> it is not cheap
 800 2011-08-16 10:41:41 <_Matthew_> Can't it be maintained by transactions alone?
 801 2011-08-16 10:41:49 <D0han> no, if you stop generating coins bitcoin still lives
 802 2011-08-16 10:41:50 <mtrlt> transactions are in the block chain.
 803 2011-08-16 10:41:50 <_Matthew_> I thought it was a dead pile of data
 804 2011-08-16 10:41:58 <D0han> when you stop generating blocks, then it dies
 805 2011-08-16 10:41:58 <DiabloD3> bitcoin mining, even when it stops producing coins, still needs to exist
 806 2011-08-16 10:41:59 <mtrlt> the block chain contains all transactions
 807 2011-08-16 10:42:07 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining produces new blocks
 808 2011-08-16 10:42:07 <_Matthew_> o_O
 809 2011-08-16 10:42:12 <_Matthew_> Ah
 810 2011-08-16 10:42:13 <DiabloD3> with no new blocks, there are no new transactions
 811 2011-08-16 10:42:16 <_Matthew_> There is just no REWARD for them, right?
 812 2011-08-16 10:42:19 <DiabloD3> the production of btc is a side effect
 813 2011-08-16 10:42:25 <_Matthew_> Later on I mean
 814 2011-08-16 10:42:30 <DiabloD3> later on its fees only.
 815 2011-08-16 10:42:32 <_Matthew_> well wtf
 816 2011-08-16 10:42:36 <DiabloD3> right now its raw token production, aka btc
 817 2011-08-16 10:42:37 <_Matthew_> What a shitty concept.
 818 2011-08-16 10:42:38 <_Matthew_> lol
 819 2011-08-16 10:42:50 <DiabloD3> not quite, what do you think secures the chain via proof of work?
 820 2011-08-16 10:42:57 <DiabloD3> proof of a LOT of work.
 821 2011-08-16 10:43:02 <DiabloD3> the more the better.
 822 2011-08-16 10:43:04 <_Matthew_> I thought it was like signatures
 823 2011-08-16 10:43:13 <DiabloD3> it is a signature of sorts
 824 2011-08-16 10:43:22 <_Matthew_> I see though
 825 2011-08-16 10:43:24 <DiabloD3> the proof of work is a cryptographic problem
 826 2011-08-16 10:43:34 <DiabloD3> very very very hard to create, very very very easy to prove.
 827 2011-08-16 10:43:38 <_Matthew_> I really do. I get how wrong I was about it originally. It makes sense with every sentence spoken here, really.
 828 2011-08-16 10:43:56 <_Matthew_> I had assumed it was all crypto magic
 829 2011-08-16 10:43:58 <DiabloD3> so, buying btc on the market is NOT just forex.
 830 2011-08-16 10:44:05 <_Matthew_> I hadn't realized it was a dumb brute force effort.
 831 2011-08-16 10:44:06 <DiabloD3> its paying us for our services at market prices.
 832 2011-08-16 10:44:10 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: yeah
 833 2011-08-16 10:44:16 <DiabloD3> its so dumb that we drug gpus into the mix
 834 2011-08-16 10:44:24 <DiabloD3> just to prevent any sort of attack on the chain
 835 2011-08-16 10:44:32 <_Matthew_> I see
 836 2011-08-16 10:44:40 <_Matthew_> So basically if you guys ever stop mining,
 837 2011-08-16 10:44:43 <_Matthew_> you're just making it easier to hack?
 838 2011-08-16 10:44:47 <_Matthew_> Fuck.
 839 2011-08-16 10:45:01 <_Matthew_> So Bitcoin in itself a kind of an eternal energy water.
 840 2011-08-16 10:45:02 <DiabloD3> yes, but there are millions of miners
 841 2011-08-16 10:45:05 <_Matthew_> waster*
 842 2011-08-16 10:45:24 <_Matthew_> I hadn't realized this before. I thought people were only mining to get coins.
 843 2011-08-16 10:45:34 <_Matthew_> I didn't know you actually HAD to keep up the mining even aftrer the rewards stopped.
 844 2011-08-16 10:45:35 <DiabloD3> people are mining to improve the integrity of the network
 845 2011-08-16 10:45:41 <_Matthew_> I thought tranasctions alone would keep the network alive.
 846 2011-08-16 10:45:49 <DiabloD3> well, eventually, tx alone will
 847 2011-08-16 10:45:54 <_Matthew_> because of fees?
 848 2011-08-16 10:45:55 <mtrlt> well no
 849 2011-08-16 10:45:59 <DiabloD3> after btc creation stops, fees will be enough
 850 2011-08-16 10:46:01 <mtrlt> you will have to mine.
 851 2011-08-16 10:46:08 TheAncientGoat has joined
 852 2011-08-16 10:46:13 <DiabloD3> but BTC value may exceed 100 usd at that point
 853 2011-08-16 10:46:28 <_Matthew_> Who is going to spend the same amount of money they do now for small profits just to keep Bitcoin alive?
 854 2011-08-16 10:46:34 <gjs278> me
 855 2011-08-16 10:46:35 <DiabloD3> I will.
 856 2011-08-16 10:46:37 <_Matthew_> It seems like an eternal pit
 857 2011-08-16 10:46:43 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: it costs me electricity.
 858 2011-08-16 10:46:44 MJD has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 859 2011-08-16 10:46:51 <mtrlt> that's what the difficulty is for
 860 2011-08-16 10:46:53 <_Matthew_> I mean, I understand it perfectly right up until the point there are no rewards
 861 2011-08-16 10:46:56 <mtrlt> if it's unprofitable, diff will go down
 862 2011-08-16 10:47:01 <mtrlt> until it is profitable again
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 864 2011-08-16 10:47:09 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: okay, look at the banking industry
 865 2011-08-16 10:47:09 <_Matthew_> Then people willstill have 100 GPU rigs mining for---what?
 866 2011-08-16 10:47:22 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: their commercial fees are often sub-percent.
 867 2011-08-16 10:47:31 <DiabloD3> yet they are the largest companies in the US.
 868 2011-08-16 10:47:35 <DiabloD3> and VERY profitable.
 869 2011-08-16 10:47:39 <_Matthew_> True.
 870 2011-08-16 10:47:55 <_Matthew_> Okay I realize that services and transactions in combination with fees will keep the wheels turning,
 871 2011-08-16 10:48:00 <DiabloD3> there are more people mining than work for, say, citigroup worlwide.
 872 2011-08-16 10:48:04 <_Matthew_> but now I am confused by that comment about "people will still need to mine"
 873 2011-08-16 10:48:12 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining produces new blocks
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 875 2011-08-16 10:48:19 <DiabloD3> without new blocks, there are no new transactions.
 876 2011-08-16 10:48:21 <_Matthew_> Who in their right mind is going to spend the same amount of investment on electricity that they do now, for a 100% LOSS later?
 877 2011-08-16 10:48:38 <DiabloD3> depends how you define 100% loss
 878 2011-08-16 10:48:42 <_Matthew_> Omg
 879 2011-08-16 10:48:43 <DiabloD3> hardware is increasing in efficiency
 880 2011-08-16 10:48:58 <_Matthew_> You're saying you'd spend $200 a month on an electric bill just to keep 'the chain safe
 881 2011-08-16 10:48:59 <_Matthew_> ?
 882 2011-08-16 10:49:05 <_Matthew_> No BTC rewards?
 883 2011-08-16 10:49:12 <kinlo> soon there will be dedicated sha512 chips :p
 884 2011-08-16 10:49:17 <_Matthew_> I'm 100% behind bitcoin, I love it.
 885 2011-08-16 10:49:19 <DiabloD3> my computer doesnt use $200 a month on electricity.
 886 2011-08-16 10:49:22 <_Matthew_> But even I know where to draw a line.
 887 2011-08-16 10:49:25 gjs278 has joined
 888 2011-08-16 10:49:26 <mtrlt> _Matthew_: miners will mine for transaction fees
 889 2011-08-16 10:49:30 <mtrlt> what part of that did you not ge
 890 2011-08-16 10:49:30 <mtrlt> t
 891 2011-08-16 10:49:34 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: I pay maybe $10-15 a month to mine.
 892 2011-08-16 10:49:36 <_Matthew_> The transaction fee part.
 893 2011-08-16 10:49:49 <mtrlt> when you send btc, sometimes the client asks you to add a transaction fee
 894 2011-08-16 10:49:51 <_Matthew_> Transaction fee is what is added to a transaction when I send BTC to you, right?
 895 2011-08-16 10:49:55 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: eventually miners will turn their machines on and off in response to profitability
 896 2011-08-16 10:50:00 <_Matthew_> Ah
 897 2011-08-16 10:50:01 <mtrlt> the fee goes to the first miner that mines a block with your transaction included
 898 2011-08-16 10:50:04 <_Matthew_> Now it makes sense again.
 899 2011-08-16 10:50:15 <_Matthew_> So when I send BTc and it asks for a transaction fee,
 900 2011-08-16 10:50:19 <_Matthew_> that fee is being added to the block?
 901 2011-08-16 10:50:25 <_Matthew_> as a reward?
 902 2011-08-16 10:50:29 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: we ONLY need to keep difficulty high enough to keep out attackers
 903 2011-08-16 10:50:30 <mtrlt> the fee goes to the first miner that mines a block with your transaction included
 904 2011-08-16 10:50:32 <mtrlt> as i already said
 905 2011-08-16 10:50:39 <_Matthew_> Genius! My faith in Bitcoin is restored.
 906 2011-08-16 10:50:42 <_Matthew_> lol
 907 2011-08-16 10:50:48 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: we're like the third largest supercluster in the world
 908 2011-08-16 10:51:08 <DiabloD3> there are no single "computers" (say, any single member of the top500) that come close.
 909 2011-08-16 10:51:19 <DiabloD3> to attack bitcoin now is going to be extremely difficult.
 910 2011-08-16 10:51:22 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 911 2011-08-16 10:51:23 <_Matthew_> Now that you guys have helped wipe the mud from my eyes, I reiterate the original proposal
 912 2011-08-16 10:51:25 <kinlo> kinda scares me, that a governement can still just boot up their supercluster and deliver a serious blow to bitcoin
 913 2011-08-16 10:51:36 <DiabloD3> kinlo: but thats the thing, they cant
 914 2011-08-16 10:51:36 <_Matthew_> There is a company that wants to use Bitcoin for internal trading, more of a pointer/share of REAL assets
 915 2011-08-16 10:51:49 <_Matthew_> They don't want to send actual dollar bills around and back and forth overseas
 916 2011-08-16 10:51:52 <kinlo> DiabloD3: you said we are the third larges supercluster
 917 2011-08-16 10:51:53 <_Matthew_> Probably due to taxation and suchl
 918 2011-08-16 10:51:54 <gjs278> the govt is too incompetent to setup a cluster large enough to attack bitcoins
 919 2011-08-16 10:52:04 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: except btc is not valid as a tax haven.
 920 2011-08-16 10:52:05 <mtrlt> the govt is too incompetent to even know what bitcoin is
 921 2011-08-16 10:52:05 koleg has joined
 922 2011-08-16 10:52:07 <kinlo> DiabloD3: so you baiscally say there are 2 larger clusters that can be used for that
 923 2011-08-16 10:52:17 <DiabloD3> kinlo: yes, but they run specific software.
 924 2011-08-16 10:52:18 <kinlo> DiabloD3: I asume that they are in goverment hands those superclusters
 925 2011-08-16 10:52:19 <DiabloD3> one is seti@home
 926 2011-08-16 10:52:22 <DiabloD3> I forget what the other is.
 927 2011-08-16 10:52:29 <DiabloD3> thats who our competition is.
 928 2011-08-16 10:52:36 <DiabloD3> other clusters like us.
 929 2011-08-16 10:52:37 <_Matthew_> BOINC projects?
 930 2011-08-16 10:52:48 <kinlo> DiabloD3: it's not because they run a specific piece of software that they cannot be reassigned to btc's
 931 2011-08-16 10:52:52 <_Matthew_> The largest is Seti
 932 2011-08-16 10:53:02 <DiabloD3> we're doing 14 thash/sec
 933 2011-08-16 10:53:21 <_Matthew_> They're measured in terraflops though. Seti is not comparable.
 934 2011-08-16 10:53:24 <DiabloD3> 1 mhash ~= 1gbsec, so thats like 14 eb/sec.
 935 2011-08-16 10:53:28 <_Matthew_> They do floating point.
 936 2011-08-16 10:53:56 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: watts.
 937 2011-08-16 10:53:58 <_Matthew_> If you can figure out a way to explain Seti@home in relation to Bitcoin, you can get Bitcoin into the Guiness book of world records.
 938 2011-08-16 10:54:17 <_Matthew_> Right now the only thing standing between us and that is that Seti holds the current world record because it can be measured in Terraflops, and Bitcoin can't.
 939 2011-08-16 10:54:31 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: btw, the way you compare stuff like that
 940 2011-08-16 10:54:35 <DiabloD3> is you take a very common cpu
 941 2011-08-16 10:54:41 <DiabloD3> see what it does with each
 942 2011-08-16 10:54:52 <DiabloD3> and convert numbers back and forth
 943 2011-08-16 10:55:05 <DiabloD3> we really are third.
 944 2011-08-16 10:55:31 <DiabloD3> like, you could measure things in 3ghz P4 equivalency
 945 2011-08-16 10:55:54 peck has joined
 946 2011-08-16 10:56:02 <DiabloD3> even with two apps that are both floating point, one may just work better than the other
 947 2011-08-16 10:56:05 <_Matthew_> If I'm not bothering anybody, I want to ask some straight questions and if youguys can give me good one liners in response, I can either shut this company up and keep them from wasting their time with bitcoin, or I can make them boost our economy into the $100USD = 1BTC range
 948 2011-08-16 10:56:07 <DiabloD3> you need a real world common benchmark
 949 2011-08-16 10:56:10 Ramokk has joined
 950 2011-08-16 10:56:29 <_Matthew_> Which I'm sure we'd all appreciate.
 951 2011-08-16 10:56:42 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: ask questions.
 952 2011-08-16 10:56:52 <kinlo> surely someone will be able to answer
 953 2011-08-16 10:57:08 <_Matthew_> Why would setting up a separate block chain be less secure?
 954 2011-08-16 10:57:21 <gjs278> it has less hash power, a lower difficulty, and can be taken over easier
 955 2011-08-16 10:57:30 <_Matthew_> (Hint: It's obvious to me now too but I can't explain it well enough)
 956 2011-08-16 10:57:55 <kinlo> to take over a chain, you must have the same amount of computing power as has been used to create it in the first place
 957 2011-08-16 10:58:04 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: bitcoin's only flaw is someone with more computation power than everyone else
 958 2011-08-16 10:58:09 <kinlo> small chains are therefore easily taken over
 959 2011-08-16 10:58:18 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: small chains are VERY easy to hijack with trivial amounts of cpu time
 960 2011-08-16 10:58:19 <kinlo> the main bitcoin chain is extreamly difficult
 961 2011-08-16 10:58:34 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 962 2011-08-16 10:58:34 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: this is why people are looking into storing non-transactions in the chain
 963 2011-08-16 10:58:48 <DiabloD3> just for the protection
 964 2011-08-16 11:00:02 <_Matthew_> Hold on, I'm making notes of everything you guys say
 965 2011-08-16 11:00:05 hachque has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 966 2011-08-16 11:00:20 gjs278 has joined
 967 2011-08-16 11:02:52 <_Matthew_> Alright
 968 2011-08-16 11:03:07 <_Matthew_> "I don't see a problem with the private network solution as there would be tens of thousands of computers and thus transactions involved from the beginning.  The companies we are talking about are quite large."
 969 2011-08-16 11:03:10 <_Matthew_> This is something he said
 970 2011-08-16 11:03:29 <_Matthew_> And this is where I see now that you guys are right in thinking he misunderstands Bitcoin
 971 2011-08-16 11:03:45 <_Matthew_> How would I respond to this?
 972 2011-08-16 11:03:51 <DiabloD3> what, only cpus?
 973 2011-08-16 11:04:01 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 974 2011-08-16 11:04:12 <_Matthew_> DiabloD3: He is a businessman, completely new to Bitcoin
 975 2011-08-16 11:04:18 <DiabloD3> well if its only cpus, eh
 976 2011-08-16 11:04:21 Burgundy has quit ()
 977 2011-08-16 11:04:26 <DiabloD3> lets say 4 mhash per machine
 978 2011-08-16 11:04:42 <_Matthew_> (Keep in mind, our biggest agenda would not be to tell him to stfu, but to provide a solution he can understand and re-explain to his higher-ups in order to convince them to buy into our main block-chain and thus improve our market)
 979 2011-08-16 11:04:52 <DiabloD3> I can replace 1000 of those machines with, say, one box.
 980 2011-08-16 11:04:54 <DiabloD3> give or take
 981 2011-08-16 11:05:07 <_Matthew_> I know what you mean.
 982 2011-08-16 11:05:11 <DiabloD3> two dozen loaded ultiminers could crush his network
 983 2011-08-16 11:05:15 <DiabloD3> without even trying
 984 2011-08-16 11:05:33 <_Matthew_> But he is under the impression he could keep it on a VPN
 985 2011-08-16 11:05:38 <_Matthew_> and thus keep it internal
 986 2011-08-16 11:05:40 <DiabloD3> sure, if he has no employees.
 987 2011-08-16 11:05:44 <_Matthew_> I can already see his point of few
 988 2011-08-16 11:05:47 <_Matthew_> view*
 989 2011-08-16 11:05:59 <_Matthew_> Sorry, I have ADHD and often type phonetically.
 990 2011-08-16 11:06:01 <DiabloD3> his largest threat are greedy assholes who work for him
 991 2011-08-16 11:06:10 <vegard> graingert: oh, I wasn't suggesting that every transaction gives a reward
 992 2011-08-16 11:06:14 <DiabloD3> which is great since we're the same way
 993 2011-08-16 11:06:17 <_Matthew_> "In fact, the internal BTC would dwarf the external BTC market immediately."
 994 2011-08-16 11:06:22 <_Matthew_> "My understanding is that there are approximately BTC 6-7 million today. Is that correct?"
 995 2011-08-16 11:06:27 <_Matthew_> "At an exchange rate of 10 USD to the BTC using yesterday's open on BTC on the Mtgox exchange, that would be approximately USD 70 million worth of BTC on the market."
 996 2011-08-16 11:06:39 <_Matthew_> "I would expect that the internal BTC market we are suggesting would be at least ten times this at the start."
 997 2011-08-16 11:06:49 <DiabloD3> current block count is 141178, times 50
 998 2011-08-16 11:07:04 <DiabloD3> so 7 million
 999 2011-08-16 11:07:25 <_Matthew_> Is he right though?
1000 2011-08-16 11:07:35 <_Matthew_> If they ahve that many transactions going, is Bitcoin better internally or externally for him?>
1001 2011-08-16 11:07:38 <DiabloD3> well, does he WANT to buy $70m?
1002 2011-08-16 11:07:45 <DiabloD3> like, at once?
1003 2011-08-16 11:07:48 <_Matthew_> Yea
1004 2011-08-16 11:07:49 <_Matthew_> And then sell them
1005 2011-08-16 11:07:53 <DiabloD3> I am his new best friend.
1006 2011-08-16 11:08:00 <_Matthew_> They don't want BTC
1007 2011-08-16 11:08:06 <_Matthew_> They want it is a virtual exchange vehicle
1008 2011-08-16 11:08:08 <DiabloD3> ahh, friendships never last.
1009 2011-08-16 11:08:12 <_Matthew_> lol
1010 2011-08-16 11:08:13 <DiabloD3> btc IS a virtual exchange vehicle.
1011 2011-08-16 11:08:17 <_Matthew_> Right
1012 2011-08-16 11:08:24 <_Matthew_> But you and me see BTC for the future
1013 2011-08-16 11:08:28 <DiabloD3> its just that if he wants to interact with other people, hes gotta use the existing system
1014 2011-08-16 11:08:33 <_Matthew_> this company probably sees it as a way of getting around fees in meatscape
1015 2011-08-16 11:08:41 <_Matthew_> OR
1016 2011-08-16 11:08:47 <_Matthew_> (As I'm not exactly sure)
1017 2011-08-16 11:08:53 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: there IS another problem
1018 2011-08-16 11:08:54 <DiabloD3> well
1019 2011-08-16 11:08:57 <DiabloD3> not a problem
1020 2011-08-16 11:08:57 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1021 2011-08-16 11:08:59 <DiabloD3> but a solution. ish.
1022 2011-08-16 11:09:04 <_Matthew_> He is just trying to turn their liquid assets into digital ones
1023 2011-08-16 11:09:08 <_Matthew_> and then back to liquid
1024 2011-08-16 11:09:12 <DiabloD3> the more btc he buys, the more they're worth
1025 2011-08-16 11:09:19 <_Matthew_> Yes I realized that from the start.
1026 2011-08-16 11:09:19 <DiabloD3> an influx of $70m over, say, a year
1027 2011-08-16 11:09:25 <_Matthew_> Which means he doesn't need to buy so many.
1028 2011-08-16 11:09:28 <DiabloD3> would vastly increase his value
1029 2011-08-16 11:09:29 <DiabloD3> yeah
1030 2011-08-16 11:09:34 <DiabloD3> it'd mean he wouldnt need that many
1031 2011-08-16 11:09:35 <_Matthew_> But it also means he'll never be able to sell them -_-;;
1032 2011-08-16 11:09:38 <DiabloD3> not true
1033 2011-08-16 11:09:42 <DiabloD3> people buy and sell all the time
1034 2011-08-16 11:10:08 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1035 2011-08-16 11:10:09 <DiabloD3> if tommorow btc becomes $100usd, we just do about one third of the current volume
1036 2011-08-16 11:10:16 <DiabloD3> (surprisingly, not one tenth)
1037 2011-08-16 11:10:42 <_Matthew_> Help me understand one thing here since my intellect in these departments is insufficient at best...
1038 2011-08-16 11:10:59 <_Matthew_> Would there be ANY problems with him using BTC temporarily as a vehicle,
1039 2011-08-16 11:11:07 <_Matthew_> then dumping it when they are ready to cash out in meatscape?
1040 2011-08-16 11:11:11 <DiabloD3> legally or morally?
1041 2011-08-16 11:11:18 <_Matthew_> logically
1042 2011-08-16 11:11:25 <_Matthew_> Are there always going to be buyers for that amount
1043 2011-08-16 11:11:26 <DiabloD3> no, no problems there
1044 2011-08-16 11:11:33 <DiabloD3> people always seem to want to buy btc
1045 2011-08-16 11:11:48 <DiabloD3> the more the world governments flounder, the more btc is sold to new owners
1046 2011-08-16 11:11:52 <_Matthew_> The thing I am (and am sure he is too) worried about is that he buys the BTC
1047 2011-08-16 11:12:00 <_Matthew_> and then the market crashs and they can't get their millions of dollars out of it
1048 2011-08-16 11:12:10 <_Matthew_> hence why he wants it to be an internal block chain
1049 2011-08-16 11:12:11 <DiabloD3> like, if you're a btc investor, you know who your friend is? palin and bachmann
1050 2011-08-16 11:12:21 <mtrlt> what makes him think that the internal btc won't crash
1051 2011-08-16 11:12:22 Clipse has joined
1052 2011-08-16 11:12:27 <DiabloD3> yeah what mtrlt said
1053 2011-08-16 11:12:33 <_Matthew_> because he believes that they will be in charge of it
1054 2011-08-16 11:12:37 <DiabloD3> markets are only stable with external pressure.
1055 2011-08-16 11:12:38 <mtrlt> hah
1056 2011-08-16 11:12:52 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: yeah right
1057 2011-08-16 11:13:06 <_Matthew_> Hence why it was proposed by the gentleman here before that Open Transactions would be much more suitable for the tasdk
1058 2011-08-16 11:13:22 <DiabloD3> open transactions sounds like something easy to change
1059 2011-08-16 11:13:31 <_Matthew_> Listen, I know I'm not the best person to represent us all like this, but please understand I'm ONLY interested in it because they are.
1060 2011-08-16 11:13:33 <DiabloD3> building secure transaction systems is EXTREMELY difficult
1061 2011-08-16 11:13:47 <_Matthew_> So I hope that everyone can pull together for a solution that would allow them to use the main block chain
1062 2011-08-16 11:14:00 <_Matthew_> But I can't really explain why they think the way they do or what their reasoning is
1063 2011-08-16 11:14:03 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: the solution, honestly, is to just buy btc at market prices
1064 2011-08-16 11:14:05 <_Matthew_> I just need some very convincing arguments
1065 2011-08-16 11:14:12 <_Matthew_> That's not convincing.
1066 2011-08-16 11:14:21 <DiabloD3> well, okay, lets say I go down to walmart
1067 2011-08-16 11:14:24 <DiabloD3> and buy a pack of poker chips
1068 2011-08-16 11:14:30 <DiabloD3> Im buying tokens at market prices.
1069 2011-08-16 11:14:34 <DiabloD3> whats the difference?
1070 2011-08-16 11:14:35 <_Matthew_> no no I understand you
1071 2011-08-16 11:14:45 <_Matthew_> It's not convincing to this conglomerate
1072 2011-08-16 11:14:59 <_Matthew_> I mean, you're not insane right? You wouldn't expect someone to say "Lets do it!" just because someone on IRC said so right?
1073 2011-08-16 11:15:01 <DiabloD3> his biggest risk is people intentionally forging transactions and new tokens
1074 2011-08-16 11:15:04 <Plasma-> Hey, can someone explain this to me? I sent 0.0007 BTC to an address on the live (not testnet) network via the client RPC sendfrom command. I have transaction fee set to 0.0005 in the .conf file. Looking at the bitcoin gui after using the rpc command, its listed txn fee as 0.0013?!
1075 2011-08-16 11:15:14 <mtrlt> "they will have tens of thousands of PCs running it in their companies" is not enough. that's a good argument for me.
1076 2011-08-16 11:15:14 <_Matthew_> I have to have logical and fiscally responsible reasons for doing it
1077 2011-08-16 11:15:18 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: Im smart enough to evaluate everything relevant to the problem set.
1078 2011-08-16 11:15:23 <_Matthew_> So here's what we know:
1079 2011-08-16 11:15:29 <DiabloD3> I dont expect a CEO to _ever_ play on my level.
1080 2011-08-16 11:15:30 <_Matthew_> 1) They think Bitcion is monopoly money
1081 2011-08-16 11:15:32 suriv has joined
1082 2011-08-16 11:15:50 <_Matthew_> 2) They PROBABLY think it will cut down on their fees etc, or why else would they care?
1083 2011-08-16 11:16:02 <_Matthew_> 3) They are supposedly going to drop millions upon millions into it
1084 2011-08-16 11:16:17 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: well, I will say this
1085 2011-08-16 11:16:20 <_Matthew_> If you were in my shoes, would you say "DO THIS" or would you create a proposal for the right method with research backing it?
1086 2011-08-16 11:16:20 <DiabloD3> with that much money
1087 2011-08-16 11:16:28 <DiabloD3> dont jump balls deep into the pool.
1088 2011-08-16 11:16:39 <_Matthew_> I created a proposal, but it was obviously wrong and misleading because I was the one leading it and didn't understand the consequences myself
1089 2011-08-16 11:16:40 <DiabloD3> start at the shallow end and slowly wade in
1090 2011-08-16 11:16:43 <mtrlt> _Matthew_: i would say "don't start your own chain"
1091 2011-08-16 11:16:49 <_Matthew_> I have.
1092 2011-08-16 11:17:01 <_Matthew_> Thanks to the intelligent advice I received here, I have already told him "New block chain is a bad idea"
1093 2011-08-16 11:17:04 <_Matthew_> They ask "Why"
1094 2011-08-16 11:17:07 suriv_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1095 2011-08-16 11:17:08 <_Matthew_> I say "It's unsafe"
1096 2011-08-16 11:17:09 <mtrlt> tens of thousands of CPU miners is nothing. i doubt all those computers have good GPUs
1097 2011-08-16 11:17:16 <_Matthew_> They respond "There will be lots of computers here. Not a problem"
1098 2011-08-16 11:17:27 <_Matthew_> I need like SOLID evidence to back what I say with these guys
1099 2011-08-16 11:17:27 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: they know what video games are, right?
1100 2011-08-16 11:17:30 gjs278 has joined
1101 2011-08-16 11:17:32 <_Matthew_> lol
1102 2011-08-16 11:17:34 <_Matthew_> I'm sure
1103 2011-08-16 11:17:43 <DiabloD3> they know it requires magic special hardware, right?
1104 2011-08-16 11:17:52 <mtrlt> well tell them how fast CPUs are compared to GPUs
1105 2011-08-16 11:17:52 <DiabloD3> shitty computers play games shittily
1106 2011-08-16 11:18:00 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: I wrote the most popular gpu miner
1107 2011-08-16 11:18:12 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: my 5850, a rather average card, replaces 200-300 computers.
1108 2011-08-16 11:18:12 <_Matthew_> Ahhh!
1109 2011-08-16 11:18:13 <mtrlt> CPUs. maybe 10MH/s if you're lucky. GPUs: a HD6990 easily gets 800MH/s
1110 2011-08-16 11:18:14 <_Matthew_> That's you!
1111 2011-08-16 11:18:19 <_Matthew_> :D
1112 2011-08-16 11:18:19 <_Matthew_> Nice to meet you Mr Diablo Miner haha
1113 2011-08-16 11:18:21 <_Matthew_> :D
1114 2011-08-16 11:18:24 <mtrlt> 10MH/s with a very fast quadcore
1115 2011-08-16 11:18:35 <DiabloD3> mtrlt: Im assuming 3mh average
1116 2011-08-16 11:18:39 <mtrlt> yeah
1117 2011-08-16 11:18:41 vigilyn has joined
1118 2011-08-16 11:18:44 <mtrlt> that's probably more accurate
1119 2011-08-16 11:18:48 <_Matthew_> I actually use Pheonix, but it's out of ignorance and not understanding really waht's better
1120 2011-08-16 11:18:53 <mtrlt> i doubt all the computers there have fast quadcores :p
1121 2011-08-16 11:19:11 <_Matthew_> I have a 5850 as well.
1122 2011-08-16 11:19:13 <DiabloD3> business computers are always half the cores and half the speed and 3 years old
1123 2011-08-16 11:19:16 <_Matthew_> And I agree
1124 2011-08-16 11:19:19 <mtrlt> heh
1125 2011-08-16 11:19:19 <mtrlt> true
1126 2011-08-16 11:19:21 <_Matthew_> Again, true
1127 2011-08-16 11:19:27 <mtrlt> so tell him that
1128 2011-08-16 11:19:28 <_Matthew_> So I have some basic arguements already but
1129 2011-08-16 11:19:35 <DiabloD3> so, lets say 4 5850s replace, say, a thousand computers
1130 2011-08-16 11:19:37 <mtrlt> 10000 shitty business CPUs is nothing
1131 2011-08-16 11:19:42 <DiabloD3> thats one rather average mining box.
1132 2011-08-16 11:19:45 <_Matthew_> You must understand, it's not about proving why it WONT work,
1133 2011-08-16 11:19:54 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: my earlier estimate was wrong
1134 2011-08-16 11:19:57 <DiabloD3> I said two dozen?
1135 2011-08-16 11:19:59 <DiabloD3> I meant a dozen.
1136 2011-08-16 11:19:59 <mtrlt> it's about convincing a suit that has an inflated ego
1137 2011-08-16 11:20:00 <_Matthew_> These are business people. When they ahve an agenda, common sense bounces off of them
1138 2011-08-16 11:20:08 <_Matthew_> What I need are reasons to make them SECURE with going main stream
1139 2011-08-16 11:20:09 <mtrlt> i say fuck them
1140 2011-08-16 11:20:12 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: yes, but they need to realize their agenda is our agenda.
1141 2011-08-16 11:20:12 <mtrlt> let them waste their money
1142 2011-08-16 11:20:19 <_Matthew_> Ugh
1143 2011-08-16 11:20:32 <mtrlt> i'm outta this conversation :P
1144 2011-08-16 11:20:32 <_Matthew_> mtrlt: that attitude is why Bitcoin doesn't stand a chance in the real world
1145 2011-08-16 11:20:32 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: we, us bitcoin people, want to have a currency safe from all attacks internal and external
1146 2011-08-16 11:20:34 <_Matthew_> haha
1147 2011-08-16 11:20:42 <_Matthew_> Yes. I agree.
1148 2011-08-16 11:20:49 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: they want a set of tokens to do the same thing
1149 2011-08-16 11:20:50 <_Matthew_> But in this world of people, MOSTLY ignorant to Bitcoin,
1150 2011-08-16 11:21:02 <_Matthew_> you cannot just say "it wont work" or "it will work"
1151 2011-08-16 11:21:13 <_Matthew_> I propose that they might be the best thing for the economy this year
1152 2011-08-16 11:21:26 <shadders> Or let them do it their way, by 5-6 decent mining rigs and nick all their PrivateCoins
1153 2011-08-16 11:21:39 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: they want an easy to use transaction system that is cryptographically protected so it becomes extremely non-trivial to attack
1154 2011-08-16 11:21:47 <_Matthew_> And I hope that I can, through your assistance, come up with some good reasons as to why the main block chain is the best thing for them financially, and good arguements to make them comfortable with the risk
1155 2011-08-16 11:21:51 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: that means no one in the IT department hijacking fake transactions to become rich.
1156 2011-08-16 11:21:59 <_Matthew_> Right
1157 2011-08-16 11:22:02 <_Matthew_> I understand completely.
1158 2011-08-16 11:22:02 <DiabloD3> or no one in upper management doing dumb shit
1159 2011-08-16 11:22:07 <DiabloD3> bitcoin means we trust no one
1160 2011-08-16 11:22:15 huk has joined
1161 2011-08-16 11:22:20 <DiabloD3> no trust is required to make the system to function
1162 2011-08-16 11:22:38 <DiabloD3> that means I can accept btc from anyone in the world, and I know its worth exactly what the tx says it is
1163 2011-08-16 11:22:41 <_Matthew_> I am completely aware of the benefits now. I am very thankful for the time you all have spent explaining most of this stuff ot me. I truly am learning a lot every day now thanks to the intelligent individuals in this group.
1164 2011-08-16 11:22:47 <_Matthew_> Where I stand now though is a difficult position.
1165 2011-08-16 11:23:02 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: its difficult explaining ANYTHING to someone who doesnt want to learn.
1166 2011-08-16 11:23:09 <shadders> buy up x bitcoins, register them all as part of the 'acceptable' set for internal exchange and use those as tokens... backed by BTC network but still private since no one on internal network will accept BTC's that aren't on the register
1167 2011-08-16 11:23:16 <_Matthew_> I need to come up with a good set of benefits for them. that's all.
1168 2011-08-16 11:23:32 <_Matthew_> If they are still going to demand a more private solution, I'll call them crazy myself.
1169 2011-08-16 11:23:33 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: well, my poker chip comparison is still valid
1170 2011-08-16 11:23:44 <DiabloD3> it costs money to buy tokens.
1171 2011-08-16 11:23:53 <_Matthew_> But at the moment, I think I'm just not believable enough to them to trust and I need more solid facts to sway them.
1172 2011-08-16 11:24:00 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: actually, think of it this way
1173 2011-08-16 11:24:05 <DiabloD3> ever been to a las vegas casino?
1174 2011-08-16 11:24:19 <DiabloD3> they have poker chips. they arent the ones you buy at walmart.
1175 2011-08-16 11:24:21 <_Matthew_> I used to live there.
1176 2011-08-16 11:24:31 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1177 2011-08-16 11:24:36 <DiabloD3> you cannot reasonably forge them. they go to great lengths to protect their chips from all attacks internal and external.
1178 2011-08-16 11:24:48 <DiabloD3> yet, they are easy to use, buy, and spend.
1179 2011-08-16 11:25:01 <_Matthew_> we would need an interface for the BTC software to run with and through SAP"
1180 2011-08-16 11:25:16 <_Matthew_> "With regard to "mining", we would need to adjust the algorythm or simply do away with it. What I mean by this is that no mining would be wanted or needed. Each client would set the number and value vs. external currency of its internal currency at the outset."
1181 2011-08-16 11:25:30 <_Matthew_> "It can do this the way a central bank would as it would be creating in effect its own central bank"
1182 2011-08-16 11:25:38 <_Matthew_> "and as corporations are more akin to midieval fiefdoms than democracies, it can order its affiliates to accept the internally designated value of the currency"
1183 2011-08-16 11:25:55 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining is badly named imo. its cryptography authentication signature creation.
1184 2011-08-16 11:25:56 <_Matthew_> "Unless we alter the software"
1185 2011-08-16 11:26:04 <_Matthew_> "which is imminently doable"
1186 2011-08-16 11:26:04 <DiabloD3> thats what its actual task is.
1187 2011-08-16 11:26:23 <_Matthew_> So right now this gentleman is awaiting an email from me
1188 2011-08-16 11:26:23 <DiabloD3> bitcoin is worthless if it can't protect future and past transactions.
1189 2011-08-16 11:26:31 <_Matthew_> he wants to know why it wont work and what they should do
1190 2011-08-16 11:26:43 <_Matthew_> I dont want to argue any more about what is better or worse to be honest.
1191 2011-08-16 11:26:49 <_Matthew_> I know I need to learna  lot and I'm personally open to learning
1192 2011-08-16 11:26:54 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: I assume he doesnt understand what crypto is for
1193 2011-08-16 11:27:00 <_Matthew_> but I am in complete agreement that reasoning won't be possible
1194 2011-08-16 11:27:14 gjs278 has joined
1195 2011-08-16 11:27:16 <DiabloD3> if crypto was easy to compute, it wouldnt be very secure would it
1196 2011-08-16 11:27:19 <_Matthew_> This needs to be a very authoratative and verifiable email
1197 2011-08-16 11:27:34 <_Matthew_> Is anyone willing to help me write it?
1198 2011-08-16 11:27:43 <_Matthew_> It actually could mean the difference between 1BTC = 10 USD
1199 2011-08-16 11:27:46 <_Matthew_> and 1 BTC = 100USD
1200 2011-08-16 11:27:49 <DiabloD3> there is no easy way to write it.
1201 2011-08-16 11:27:57 <DiabloD3> the guy needs to be educated on a lot of basic things
1202 2011-08-16 11:28:02 <_Matthew_> Not so.
1203 2011-08-16 11:28:07 <_Matthew_> He can ask as many questions as he wants
1204 2011-08-16 11:28:11 <shadders> Well it carries the weight of diablo lord of terror, I think that counts as authoritative
1205 2011-08-16 11:28:11 <_Matthew_> Which he will!
1206 2011-08-16 11:28:30 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: does he understand cryptography?
1207 2011-08-16 11:28:33 <_Matthew_> I just need something that will explain for everyone, why his idea wont work and why the main idea is better
1208 2011-08-16 11:28:34 <DiabloD3> or at least, what its for
1209 2011-08-16 11:28:37 <_Matthew_> He probably does to some degree
1210 2011-08-16 11:28:39 <_Matthew_> yea
1211 2011-08-16 11:28:41 <_Matthew_> He understand PGP
1212 2011-08-16 11:28:52 <DiabloD3> okay, the most important thing I think is
1213 2011-08-16 11:28:55 <_Matthew_> So I just need something to show him that if he ends up not going forward, it'll be by HIS fault
1214 2011-08-16 11:28:59 <DiabloD3> [07:19:45] <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: mining is badly named imo. its cryptography authentication signature creation.
1215 2011-08-16 11:29:12 <_Matthew_> here is what I have so far:
1216 2011-08-16 11:29:20 <_Matthew_> Q) Why would setting up a separate block chain be less secure?
1217 2011-08-16 11:29:26 <_Matthew_> A) It has less hash power, a lower difficulty, and can be taken over easier. To take over a chain, you must have the same amount of computing power as has been used to create it in the first place. Bitcoin's only flaw is someone with more computation power than everyone else can take it over. Small chains are therefore easily taken over. To reiterate, small chains are VERY easy to hijack
1218 2011-08-16 11:29:26 <_Matthew_> with trivial amounts of cpu time. The main bitcoin chain is extremely difficult and therefor highly regarded as impenetrable. Bitcoin is a very unique and interesting technology, but at this point we are of the firm belief that any small separated chains are at too high of a risk of attack to be taken seriously, even internally.
1219 2011-08-16 11:29:48 <asher^> hey guys, ive seen some complicated hashing algorithms. to check that data is in fact a valid share can i simply run the whole data returned by the miner through sha256 twice and compare the result to the target?
1220 2011-08-16 11:30:01 <edcba> "a lower difficulty" doesn't mean anything
1221 2011-08-16 11:30:17 <DiabloD3> asher^: yes, you just take the 80 byte header and sha256(sha256()) it
1222 2011-08-16 11:30:31 noagendamarket has joined
1223 2011-08-16 11:30:37 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: he can email me if he wants. diablod3@gmail.com.
1224 2011-08-16 11:31:03 <asher^> DiabloD3 thanks. does a miner usually return just 80 bytes?
1225 2011-08-16 11:31:17 <_Matthew_> No offense, but since I already took a lead on this a while back, asking him to email a stranger is extremely unprofessional. Would you mind emailing HIM instead with some ideas and open a line of communication taht way?
1226 2011-08-16 11:31:19 <DiabloD3> asher^: bitcoin produces the 80 byte header, and yes, its always 80 bytes
1227 2011-08-16 11:31:30 <DiabloD3> asher^: every block will always have a 80 byte header
1228 2011-08-16 11:31:52 <_Matthew_> In his eyes, he trust me, the organization I represent, and is willing to pay big money to get it done
1229 2011-08-16 11:31:53 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: usually, the guy that wants to know things emails the expert ;)
1230 2011-08-16 11:31:59 <_Matthew_> Right
1231 2011-08-16 11:32:02 <_Matthew_> But this guy is a business man
1232 2011-08-16 11:32:08 <edcba> btc to sap lol
1233 2011-08-16 11:32:17 <_Matthew_> And the UABCI is supposed to handle things like this in the future anyway
1234 2011-08-16 11:32:22 <_Matthew_> So me learning is also a top priority
1235 2011-08-16 11:32:31 <edcba> if that continues like that in one year i will have to integrate it to our erp too
1236 2011-08-16 11:32:31 <kinlo> DiabloD3: do you know what else the miner returns?  it returns the 80 byte header but also 80 extra bytes
1237 2011-08-16 11:32:53 <DiabloD3> kinlo: it returns it in hex text
1238 2011-08-16 11:33:02 <kinlo> DiabloD3: yes, but after that
1239 2011-08-16 11:33:11 HaltingState has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1240 2011-08-16 11:33:15 <asher^> it looks like it returns 256 hex characters
1241 2011-08-16 11:33:20 <mtrlt> it's the sha256 padding
1242 2011-08-16 11:33:23 <DiabloD3> padding
1243 2011-08-16 11:33:29 <kinlo> usually lots of zeroes follow after the 80 bytes
1244 2011-08-16 11:33:30 <mtrlt> i don't have a clue why it has to be returned too
1245 2011-08-16 11:33:33 <mtrlt> it's always the same
1246 2011-08-16 11:33:43 <kinlo> but I don't really have an idea why the padding should be sent too
1247 2011-08-16 11:33:52 <kinlo> mtrlt: it's not always the same
1248 2011-08-16 11:33:55 <mtrlt> it's because the protocol is shitty
1249 2011-08-16 11:33:57 <mtrlt> it is
1250 2011-08-16 11:33:58 <asher^> so i just hash the whole 256 characters returned?
1251 2011-08-16 11:34:01 <kinlo> but I don't really understand it either
1252 2011-08-16 11:34:05 <edcba> anyway are a pile of blocks built on older blocks thanks to cpu power ie the more cpu power the more high the more secure etc
1253 2011-08-16 11:34:05 <DiabloD3> asher^: no
1254 2011-08-16 11:34:08 <kinlo> asher^: no
1255 2011-08-16 11:34:10 <mtrlt> i know what i'm talking about, i've written a miner.
1256 2011-08-16 11:34:14 <asher^> ok
1257 2011-08-16 11:34:14 <DiabloD3> asher^: just the first 160 (== 80 bytes)
1258 2011-08-16 11:34:27 <asher^> ok cool
1259 2011-08-16 11:34:28 <edcba> maybe tower image is not that a good image
1260 2011-08-16 11:34:29 <asher^> thanks
1261 2011-08-16 11:34:33 <kinlo> mtrlt: possibly, but still it isn't always the same
1262 2011-08-16 11:34:40 <mtrlt> kinlo: the padding is always the same.
1263 2011-08-16 11:34:45 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: anyhow, hrm.
1264 2011-08-16 11:34:54 <kinlo> mtrlt: I've seen miners return different things...
1265 2011-08-16 11:35:02 <DiabloD3> _Matthew_: I mean, if he gets PGP, then he understands why being able to authenticate messages is useful
1266 2011-08-16 11:35:08 <mtrlt> kinlo: my miner works fine and i've just hardcoded the padding in there.
1267 2011-08-16 11:35:27 <asher^> the hash algorithm adds the extra 0s back in, doesnt it?
1268 2011-08-16 11:35:28 <mtrlt> because it's always the same
1269 2011-08-16 11:35:29 <kinlo> mtrlt: possible... but other miners don't do it that way
1270 2011-08-16 11:35:37 <mtrlt> if they don't, they're doing it wrong
1271 2011-08-16 11:35:48 <mtrlt> if they alter any of the padding.
1272 2011-08-16 11:36:34 <edcba> mtrlt: because you don't go through all nonces
1273 2011-08-16 11:36:47 <mtrlt> what does that have to do with padding
1274 2011-08-16 11:36:54 <kinlo> in any case, it's stupid that the miners don't pass the extranonce
1275 2011-08-16 11:37:10 <mtrlt> there is already an extranonce of sorts for miners. roll-ntime.
1276 2011-08-16 11:37:24 <mtrlt> run out of nonces? increment ntime by 1 and start again
1277 2011-08-16 11:37:40 <mtrlt> of course the pool has to support it too
1278 2011-08-16 11:37:40 <edcba> it costs more cpu
1279 2011-08-16 11:37:48 <mtrlt> are you serious?
1280 2011-08-16 11:38:02 <edcba> yes but that's negligible :)
1281 2011-08-16 11:38:04 <mtrlt> 99.99% of the time the CPU is just waiting on the GPU
1282 2011-08-16 11:38:09 <mtrlt> so it does not matter one bit
1283 2011-08-16 11:38:40 <edcba> anyway must be easier to code it like that
1284 2011-08-16 11:40:15 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1285 2011-08-16 11:40:16 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":11.66,"low":10.8109,"avg":11.183887444,"vwap":11.194315617,"vol":23647,"last":11,"buy":11,"sell":11.0069}}
1286 2011-08-16 11:41:47 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
1287 2011-08-16 11:41:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 141181 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 1954 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 46 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1582904.33794122
1288 2011-08-16 11:43:24 <jgarzik> luke-jr: hum, that's disappointing
1289 2011-08-16 11:44:15 <asher^> must i convert the miners result from hex to something else before doing the hash?
1290 2011-08-16 11:44:19 jav__ has joined
1291 2011-08-16 11:44:35 <mtrlt> you have to convert the hex to bytes
1292 2011-08-16 11:44:42 <asher^> ok
1293 2011-08-16 11:44:48 <mtrlt> and then swap the endianness of every 4 bytes
1294 2011-08-16 11:45:57 <asher^> ok, so i guess before when i asked if i simply run it thorough twice the answer should have been no ;)
1295 2011-08-16 11:46:19 <mtrlt> :P
1296 2011-08-16 11:47:39 <asher^> do the miners return work in the correct byte order to be hashed or do i need to swap those?
1297 2011-08-16 11:47:51 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-127-144-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
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1299 2011-08-16 11:48:25 <mtrlt> well, you need to swap bytes so that the first 4 bytes of the data are 01 00 00 00
1300 2011-08-16 11:48:38 <mtrlt> and swap the rest of the 4 byte blocks accordingly
1301 2011-08-16 11:49:47 <asher^> do you know if theres a php function out there to test a hash already?
1302 2011-08-16 11:49:52 <mtrlt> nope
1303 2011-08-16 11:49:59 <ThomasV> hello, can someone help me with this syntax :     for (int val: data)  <-- trying to compile libbitcoin, I guess I need to install a c++ package
1304 2011-08-16 11:50:29 <ThomasV> I do not know this for loop syntax
1305 2011-08-16 11:50:36 <mtrlt> it's not C++03 syntax for sure
1306 2011-08-16 11:51:00 <ThomasV> it is compiled with -std=c++0x
1307 2011-08-16 11:51:16 <mtrlt> yep guess they added it in the new standard
1308 2011-08-16 11:51:28 <ThomasV> but I cannot get it to compile ; what do I need to add ?
1309 2011-08-16 11:51:51 <edcba> brains !
1310 2011-08-16 11:51:54 <mtrlt> are you using a c++0x-capable compiler?
1311 2011-08-16 11:52:14 <ThomasV> I have g++ and I also installed boost related packages
1312 2011-08-16 11:52:31 <ThomasV> I do not know if it is c++0x capable
1313 2011-08-16 11:53:01 <ThomasV> I do not know what I need to install
1314 2011-08-16 11:53:44 <mtrlt> me neither, sry :P
1315 2011-08-16 11:54:32 <edcba> what is the error ?
1316 2011-08-16 11:54:51 <ThomasV> edcba:  expected initializer before ‘:’ token
1317 2011-08-16 11:55:43 <ThomasV> I have g++ 4.4.5-8
1318 2011-08-16 11:55:55 <wardearia> Trying to compile (manually) bitcoind I get this error http://privatepaste.com/a7e69db99c  How come?
1319 2011-08-16 11:56:02 <wardearia> I'm using gentoo linux
1320 2011-08-16 11:56:03 <edcba> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7071199/g-doesnt-compile-c0x-range-based-for-loop
1321 2011-08-16 11:56:17 <edcba> "You need GCC 4.6 and above to get range-based for loops."
1322 2011-08-16 11:56:37 <ThomasV> oh
1323 2011-08-16 11:56:39 <ThomasV> edcba: ty
1324 2011-08-16 11:56:40 <DiabloD3> http://www.betabeat.com/2011/08/15/bitoin-exchange-chase-wells-fargo-exch/
1325 2011-08-16 11:56:45 <DiabloD3> BAM
1326 2011-08-16 11:57:02 <edcba> hmm
1327 2011-08-16 11:58:10 <edcba> is wells fargo well known ?
1328 2011-08-16 11:58:57 <edcba> hmm it seems warren buffett knows it :)
1329 2011-08-16 11:58:59 <edcba> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-16/buffett-increases-wells-fargo-stake-buys-stocks-on-sale-amid-declines.html
1330 2011-08-16 11:59:56 <edcba> 11th largest company ok lol
1331 2011-08-16 12:00:47 <vegard> why is bitcoin called deflationary? at the moment it is inflationary because new bitcoins are minted every 10 minutes. but at the end of the inflationary era, wouldn't it be at equilibrium, rather than either inflationary or deflationary?
1332 2011-08-16 12:01:01 <asher^> mtrlt mind if i msg you quickly?
1333 2011-08-16 12:01:48 <mtrlt> vegard: yes, if the amount of users stays constant.
1334 2011-08-16 12:01:49 <edcba> vegard: less money is available
1335 2011-08-16 12:02:01 <mtrlt> or.. rather. if the economy size stays constant
1336 2011-08-16 12:02:39 <vegard> right, so the "deflationary" part comes from an assumption that more and more people will use bitcoin?
1337 2011-08-16 12:02:47 <jeremias> eah
1338 2011-08-16 12:03:00 <edcba> who is running exchb ?
1339 2011-08-16 12:03:14 <mtrlt> vegard: probably
1340 2011-08-16 12:03:25 <mtrlt> vegard: and the fact that money will be lost due to missing backups etc
1341 2011-08-16 12:03:39 <edcba> who is david sterry ? :)
1342 2011-08-16 12:08:07 asuk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1346 2011-08-16 12:20:08 <wardearia> Anyone able to help resolve --> ld: cannot find -lboost_filesystem
1347 2011-08-16 12:20:22 <wardearia> See privatepaste link above for more infos :3
1348 2011-08-16 12:20:25 <SomeoneWeird> install boost libraries
1349 2011-08-16 12:20:34 <wardearia> SomeoneWeird, boost libraries are installed
1350 2011-08-16 12:20:36 graingert has left ()
1351 2011-08-16 12:20:42 <SomeoneWeird> AND the dev ones?
1352 2011-08-16 12:20:44 <wardearia> yep
1353 2011-08-16 12:21:11 <wardearia> http://privatepaste.com/a603a1d430
1354 2011-08-16 12:21:51 <SomeoneWeird> i dont see the dev ones installed
1355 2011-08-16 12:21:53 AgoristRadio has joined
1356 2011-08-16 12:21:57 <SomeoneWeird> might be different on suse though
1357 2011-08-16 12:22:04 <SomeoneWeird> err *genoo
1358 2011-08-16 12:22:07 <SomeoneWeird> gentoo
1359 2011-08-16 12:22:13 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1360 2011-08-16 12:22:22 <wardearia> SomeoneWeird, What files/paths are provided by dev package?
1361 2011-08-16 12:22:53 <SomeoneWeird> no idea
1362 2011-08-16 12:24:32 <wardearia> Maybe `revdep-rebuild` will fix it
1363 2011-08-16 12:28:06 <ThomasV> doh
1364 2011-08-16 12:28:09 <ThomasV> E: Could not perform immediate configuration on 'perl'. Please see man 5 apt.conf under APT::Immediate-Configure for details. (2)
1365 2011-08-16 12:28:34 <ThomasV> ^^ trying to upgrade to g++-4.6
1366 2011-08-16 12:28:57 <ThomasV> I'm lost
1367 2011-08-16 12:29:21 <Plasma-> hi guys; is it possible to know what the txn fee for a send will be? can I set a fixed fee? Its otherwise hard for accounting purposes to keep track of in/out of peoples transactions to me etc
1368 2011-08-16 12:30:02 <ThomasV> Plasma-: you choose the fee
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1370 2011-08-16 12:30:36 niekie has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1371 2011-08-16 12:30:45 <Plasma-> ThomasV; hm could you clarify this then for me (posted earlier) as I am confused by it: <Plasma-> Hey, can someone explain this to me? I sent 0.0007 BTC to an address on the live (not testnet) network via the client RPC sendfrom command. I have transaction fee set to 0.0005 in the .conf file. Looking at the bitcoin gui after using the rpc command, its listed txn fee as 0.0013?!
1372 2011-08-16 12:31:01 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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1376 2011-08-16 12:31:14 <ThomasV> I think the conf file is btc/kilobyte
1377 2011-08-16 12:31:14 <Plasma-> does this mean my txn I sent via rpc must have been ~2-3KB ? I find out now the txnfee is per KB, not a fixed amount
1378 2011-08-16 12:31:33 The_SLain_MAn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1381 2011-08-16 12:31:44 The_SLain_MAn has joined
1382 2011-08-16 12:31:44 <ThomasV> yes
1383 2011-08-16 12:32:02 luke-jr has joined
1384 2011-08-16 12:32:16 <Plasma-> is a fee of 0.00 in the conf file acceptable? its just hard to know the right amount beforehand otherwise for accounting purposes (eg, I dont want to spend my profit to cover the fee etc)
1385 2011-08-16 12:32:17 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1386 2011-08-16 12:32:32 <ThomasV> you can set it to zero
1387 2011-08-16 12:32:51 tcoppi has joined
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1390 2011-08-16 12:33:08 <vegard> does anybody have a graph of block reward + fees for all time?
1391 2011-08-16 12:33:19 <ThomasV> lots of transactions are still accepted with zero fees
1392 2011-08-16 12:33:28 <wardearia> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37438
1393 2011-08-16 12:33:37 <ThomasV> vegard: someone did tyhat, but I lost the url
1394 2011-08-16 12:34:49 <vegard> this? http://bitcoinreport.blogspot.com/2011/01/bitcoin-transactions-per-day-and-other.html
1395 2011-08-16 12:35:15 <ThomasV> vegard: yes :-)
1396 2011-08-16 12:35:16 <vegard> it seems the red line of the bottom graph shows what I was looking for
1397 2011-08-16 12:35:19 <vegard> thanks.
1398 2011-08-16 12:35:49 Akinava has joined
1399 2011-08-16 12:35:52 <ThomasV> currently, I do not know how many miners refuse transactions when they have no fee
1400 2011-08-16 12:36:01 <ThomasV> it would be interesting to know
1401 2011-08-16 12:36:13 <MrTiggr> :D:D:D maaan thats a tasty chart!
1402 2011-08-16 12:36:30 <MrTiggr> who do i give the karma to for That!?
1403 2011-08-16 12:36:38 <edcba> "Graph goes here - Number and value of transactions per day"
1404 2011-08-16 12:36:48 <vegard> but it only goes to february
1405 2011-08-16 12:36:55 <edcba> relying on google to provide service is bad !
1406 2011-08-16 12:36:56 <vegard> :-(
1407 2011-08-16 12:37:21 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1408 2011-08-16 12:37:37 <edcba> anyway it's hosted on blogspot :(
1409 2011-08-16 12:37:49 tcoppi has joined
1410 2011-08-16 12:37:50 <ThomasV> vegard: is there a way to change the verical scale ?
1411 2011-08-16 12:38:20 <MrTiggr> :( yeh only till feb :( i want more!
1412 2011-08-16 12:38:23 <vegard> dunno, don't think so
1413 2011-08-16 12:38:44 <vegard> I think the really interesting data is from april-now :-)
1414 2011-08-16 12:38:54 wolfspraul has joined
1415 2011-08-16 12:39:08 <vegard> oh
1416 2011-08-16 12:39:08 <vegard> http://bitcoinreport.blogspot.com/2011/06/updated-transactions-per-day-and.html
1417 2011-08-16 12:39:16 <ThomasV> yes :-)
1418 2011-08-16 12:39:22 <ThomasV> I was going to tell
1419 2011-08-16 12:39:54 <vegard> still doesn't have july though
1420 2011-08-16 12:40:01 <MrTiggr> n1n1n1n1!
1421 2011-08-16 12:40:02 <ThomasV> I think that the values of fees are per day
1422 2011-08-16 12:41:18 <vegard> yes.
1423 2011-08-16 12:41:30 <vegard> it's good enough for me. still I would like to see the even newer data too :)
1424 2011-08-16 12:42:02 Strom- is now known as Strom
1425 2011-08-16 12:43:45 <ThomasV> btw, is there a way to withdraw a pending transaction, if you realize that miners do not take it because the fee is too low, and you want to raise it ?
1426 2011-08-16 12:45:36 <vegard> I think there is some kind of mechanism for replacing old transactions
1427 2011-08-16 12:45:51 <ThomasV> how does it work ?
1428 2011-08-16 12:45:57 <vegard> something like a transaction version number. so you can update your transaction with a bigger fee if it hasn't been accepted yet
1429 2011-08-16 12:46:10 <UukGoblin> looks like graphs at bitcoin.sipa.be stopped being updated with data
1430 2011-08-16 12:46:17 <ThomasV> I see ; but you have no way to withdraw it ?
1431 2011-08-16 12:46:20 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1432 2011-08-16 12:47:10 <ThomasV> hmm that makes sense ;
1433 2011-08-16 12:47:18 <vegard> ThomasV: well, no. in the best case it will simply not be included in a block
1434 2011-08-16 12:47:37 <ThomasV> and in the worst case ?
1435 2011-08-16 12:47:41 <vegard> but as long as there is a copy of your transaction around and miners willing to include it... you cannot prevent them from doing so
1436 2011-08-16 12:48:12 <kinlo> if you really don't want it to happen, you should double-spend your transaction I think
1437 2011-08-16 12:48:30 <kinlo> create a second transaction that cancels out the first one - if you can get it distributed/mined
1438 2011-08-16 12:48:48 <vegard> yeah. it still doesn't stop miners from including your first one if they want, though
1439 2011-08-16 12:48:49 <ThomasV> could someone flood the network with zero-fee transactions that float around forever ?
1440 2011-08-16 12:49:21 <kinlo> ThomasV: clients only accept transactions that will end up in a block
1441 2011-08-16 12:49:41 <_Matthew_> i'm totally willing to sell my online game if anyone is interested.
1442 2011-08-16 12:49:45 <_Matthew_> http://bit-fu.com
1443 2011-08-16 12:49:52 <kinlo> so if there are already enough zero-fee transactions in the network, no nodes will accept new zero-fee transactions
1444 2011-08-16 12:49:59 <ThomasV> kinlo: I am not talking about that. I am talking about pending transactions, that are not included in a block
1445 2011-08-16 12:50:27 <kinlo> ThomasV: exactly.  Those pending transactions, where do you think they exist?
1446 2011-08-16 12:50:43 <ThomasV> they are broadcast
1447 2011-08-16 12:50:53 <kinlo> ThomasV: they exist in ram in the running clients.  The same clients that refuse new zero-fee transactions when they already have enough of those
1448 2011-08-16 12:51:16 <ThomasV> ok
1449 2011-08-16 12:51:20 <kinlo> you cannot broadcast a transaction if clients don't accept it
1450 2011-08-16 12:51:31 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1451 2011-08-16 12:51:38 <ThomasV> I see
1452 2011-08-16 12:52:39 <asher^> when im hashing a block header, i need to reverse each of the individual fields entirely right? rather than reversing each 4 bytes
1453 2011-08-16 12:53:27 <ThomasV> actually, the cost induced by writing a transaction in the blockchain is not well reflected by the cost for the miner who decides to accept it
1454 2011-08-16 13:01:23 <ThomasV> would it be technically possible, at some point, that some miners decide to only use a recent subset of the blockchain (say, the last 5 years), and to leave the transactions involving old addresses to other miners? since transactions involving old addresses are rare, they would not lose much in terms of fees; they would have less data to handle, which could cut their costs
1455 2011-08-16 13:02:11 <UukGoblin> happy pre-0.3.10 integer overflow bug anniversary, everyone!
1456 2011-08-16 13:02:29 <UukGoblin> that's a year without any major bitcoin bugs
1457 2011-08-16 13:03:34 <ThomasV> ... this would mean that users would, eventually, need to pay higher fees in order to move coins from very old blocks
1458 2011-08-16 13:03:49 <vegard> it is not more costly to create transactions with old coins
1459 2011-08-16 13:05:29 <ThomasV> why not ? if you need to store only a subset of the blockchain, you need less storage
1460 2011-08-16 13:05:45 normanrichards has joined
1461 2011-08-16 13:06:00 <MacRohard> ThomasV, meh. data is cheap. almost everyone mines in a pool these days - only the pool operator would need to keep it.
1462 2011-08-16 13:06:12 * UukGoblin raises hand
1463 2011-08-16 13:06:14 <UukGoblin> I don't!
1464 2011-08-16 13:06:32 <ThomasV> indeed, pools
1465 2011-08-16 13:07:00 <ThomasV> UukGoblin: how many blocks do you mine per week ?
1466 2011-08-16 13:07:14 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, last 2 weeks, 1 :-/
1467 2011-08-16 13:07:23 <UukGoblin> as in, 2 blocks in the last 2 weeks
1468 2011-08-16 13:07:30 <MacRohard> nice
1469 2011-08-16 13:07:35 <SomeoneWeird> thats good
1470 2011-08-16 13:08:12 <UukGoblin> but, if I count for last month - actually that's about 2 blocks per week
1471 2011-08-16 13:08:25 <MacRohard> but yea.. someone earning $500/week can pay for a few 1TB HDs.
1472 2011-08-16 13:08:26 <UukGoblin> variance is big, I agree
1473 2011-08-16 13:08:52 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1474 2011-08-16 13:09:03 dbitcoin has joined
1475 2011-08-16 13:09:06 raininja has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1476 2011-08-16 13:09:40 raininja has joined
1477 2011-08-16 13:11:57 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1478 2011-08-16 13:12:32 Xunie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1479 2011-08-16 13:16:37 <vegard> and the block chain is currently, what, 1G?
1480 2011-08-16 13:16:48 jeremias has left ()
1481 2011-08-16 13:17:02 <vegard> it's not an urgent problem
1482 2011-08-16 13:17:17 gp5st has joined
1483 2011-08-16 13:17:27 <vegard> urgent = in the next couple of years
1484 2011-08-16 13:17:30 <UukGoblin> an urgentish problem imho is the 1MB blocksize limit
1485 2011-08-16 13:17:50 <_Matthew_> You mean I am holding 1GB of Bitcoin blocks on my HDD right now?
1486 2011-08-16 13:17:50 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: data demonstrating why it is urgent?
1487 2011-08-16 13:17:57 <jgarzik> _Matthew_: yes
1488 2011-08-16 13:17:58 <vegard> you want to lift it?
1489 2011-08-16 13:18:28 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, *ish* ;-]
1490 2011-08-16 13:18:38 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: most agree 1MB block size limit needs changing... eventually.  What we lack is anything rising above pure supposition...
1491 2011-08-16 13:18:52 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1492 2011-08-16 13:19:05 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, imho it's a problem because it's quite arbitrary, and I'm not sure what it should be changed to
1493 2011-08-16 13:19:15 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: well, there ya go ;-)
1494 2011-08-16 13:19:25 <vegard> shouldn't block size limit somehow depend on the number of transactions in the past N blocks?
1495 2011-08-16 13:19:26 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: that could be applied to a lot of bitcoin constants, such as 21M
1496 2011-08-16 13:19:29 <UukGoblin> and the change has to be done over a long period of time
1497 2011-08-16 13:19:48 <UukGoblin> jgarzik, well, 21M * 1e8 is enough bitcoins forever, I'd assume
1498 2011-08-16 13:19:57 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: the change will break old clients, so it's something that it put off until absolutely necessary
1499 2011-08-16 13:20:03 <UukGoblin> I mean, the constant is arbitrary, but there is no problem with it
1500 2011-08-16 13:20:06 <jgarzik> if (block > X) { new size }
1501 2011-08-16 13:20:14 <UukGoblin> yes yes
1502 2011-08-16 13:20:26 <UukGoblin> it's gonna be kinda like IPv4->IPv6
1503 2011-08-16 13:20:29 <UukGoblin> or y2k bugs
1504 2011-08-16 13:21:00 <jgarzik> no.  Y2K bug behavior was unknown.  This behavior is known.  Old clients WILL reject blocks.
1505 2011-08-16 13:21:18 <vegard> just plan the change sufficiently ahead of time?
1506 2011-08-16 13:21:23 <jgarzik> thus forking the chain, for clients that do not upgrade.
1507 2011-08-16 13:21:29 <ThomasV> clients that accept >1M blocks can be deployed 1 year before they start to write such blocks
1508 2011-08-16 13:21:31 <UukGoblin> I mean people won't thing about fixing it until it's too late ;-]
1509 2011-08-16 13:21:42 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, yeah, sure
1510 2011-08-16 13:21:56 <jgarzik> ThomasV, vegard: bitcoin community upgrades quite slowly
1511 2011-08-16 13:22:03 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, but then, people will start generating 10MB spammy blocks... and what then?
1512 2011-08-16 13:22:14 <ThomasV> heh
1513 2011-08-16 13:22:15 somuchwin has joined
1514 2011-08-16 13:22:23 <jgarzik> and the consequences of a forced upgrade are _very bad_ -- the single key feature, access to money, is no longer possible.
1515 2011-08-16 13:23:00 somuchwin2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1516 2011-08-16 13:23:01 <vegard> UukGoblin: no, you can put jgarzik's code (if (block > X) { new size }) in ahead of time.. right?
1517 2011-08-16 13:23:04 <ThomasV> yes, it's like upgrading to the euro currency
1518 2011-08-16 13:23:15 <ThomasV> updating all ATMs
1519 2011-08-16 13:23:18 <vegard> you know what the block number is going to be in about 1 year
1520 2011-08-16 13:23:24 <UukGoblin> vegard, true, in which case, they'll start generating spammy blocks when block > X
1521 2011-08-16 13:23:31 <jgarzik> vegard: yes, but the consequences are such that there is no guarantee everyone will be updated in 1 year
1522 2011-08-16 13:23:41 <jgarzik> vegard: current bitcoin users do not upgrade every 12 months
1523 2011-08-16 13:24:10 <vegard> you'd think that >90% of the users would upgrade within a year, no?
1524 2011-08-16 13:24:11 <UukGoblin> 5 years should be quite safe, but who's to judge what the transaction rate will be in 5 years?
1525 2011-08-16 13:24:12 <ThomasV> that would be an incentive
1526 2011-08-16 13:24:19 <asher^> hey guys, when a miner returns work, which parts of that header need to be reversed when doing the hash?
1527 2011-08-16 13:24:24 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: mostly agreed, there
1528 2011-08-16 13:24:42 <jgarzik> asher^: see the source code of pyminer or cpuminer
1529 2011-08-16 13:27:01 <vegard> even better, you could do if (block > X) { die("please to upgrade" } where X is one year ahead :-)
1530 2011-08-16 13:27:47 <UukGoblin> I think satoshi's implemented some kind of warning
1531 2011-08-16 13:28:04 <UukGoblin> when the client sees there are newer nodes on the network around it, it should show some warning message about upgrading...
1532 2011-08-16 13:28:06 <jgarzik> if there are ever "if block > x { new behavior }" style changes, I imagine a great many would be grouped into a single change event.
1533 2011-08-16 13:28:13 <UukGoblin> or was it tied to satoshi's private gpg key...?
1534 2011-08-16 13:30:10 <UukGoblin> ah, also - I remember discussing a variable limit (i.e. based on the last N blocks' size)... unsure what the outcome was though
1535 2011-08-16 13:30:29 <UukGoblin> if N was large enough, that could possibly even work
1536 2011-08-16 13:32:19 <UukGoblin> anyway yeah, this, too, is unlikely to be problem over the next year or so
1537 2011-08-16 13:33:35 <vegard> I'm worried about the transition to lower block rewards
1538 2011-08-16 13:34:12 <ThomasV> yes, these transitions are not smooth
1539 2011-08-16 13:34:14 <b4epoche> when does that happen?
1540 2011-08-16 13:34:28 <ThomasV> end of 2012
1541 2011-08-16 13:34:50 <b4epoche> what's the delta?
1542 2011-08-16 13:35:13 <ThomasV>  /2
1543 2011-08-16 13:35:38 <b4epoche> oh, right.
1544 2011-08-16 13:35:47 <b4epoche> is this the first change?  no, right?
1545 2011-08-16 13:35:53 <vegard> first one, yes
1546 2011-08-16 13:35:58 <b4epoche> oh
1547 2011-08-16 13:36:00 Phoebus has joined
1548 2011-08-16 13:36:18 <b4epoche> my take:  it will he a good time to start mining
1549 2011-08-16 13:36:25 <vegard> it means that fees per block will have to rise by an average of 25 btc in order to keep the number of miners constant
1550 2011-08-16 13:37:28 <b4epoche> no, miner number will drop substantially and difficulty will decrease substatially
1551 2011-08-16 13:37:48 <vegard> yes, exactly.
1552 2011-08-16 13:38:01 <b4epoche> in fact, I'm betting on an overshoot…  making it a good time to start mining
1553 2011-08-16 13:38:15 <vegard> which is a bad thing for the security of the block chain
1554 2011-08-16 13:38:43 <b4epoche> security?  like of it getting overrun by another one?
1555 2011-08-16 13:39:05 <vegard> the hashing power needed to overtake the block chain, yes
1556 2011-08-16 13:39:33 <UukGoblin> vegard, nah, if the price per 1BTC is high enough, it shouldn't have much effect on miners
1557 2011-08-16 13:39:39 <b4epoche> just because it slows down for a bit doesn't matter much
1558 2011-08-16 13:39:44 <UukGoblin> it's the BTC price that drives the number of miners, imho
1559 2011-08-16 13:40:20 <ThomasV> vegard: but we already see price fluctuations of that amplitude
1560 2011-08-16 13:40:24 <b4epoche> miners aren't stupid (although I'm not so sure about pool operators ;-), they'll figure out what makes sense
1561 2011-08-16 13:40:48 <ThomasV> ... and they did not kill us
1562 2011-08-16 13:40:49 s1gnal has left ("Leaving")
1563 2011-08-16 13:41:06 <vegard> UukGoblin: what is "high enough"? remember that if btc price rises, it will be a lot harder to raise the fees too
1564 2011-08-16 13:41:15 <b4epoche> it'll be an interesting dynamic
1565 2011-08-16 13:41:16 robblesz has joined
1566 2011-08-16 13:41:32 <vegard> ThomasV: what price fluctuations?
1567 2011-08-16 13:41:42 <ThomasV> btc/usd
1568 2011-08-16 13:41:48 <vegard> ThomasV: or rather, what amplitude?
1569 2011-08-16 13:41:53 <ThomasV> 100%
1570 2011-08-16 13:42:39 <ThomasV> or 50% decreases
1571 2011-08-16 13:43:22 <vegard> your point is that it didn't seem to affect (the number of) miners much?
1572 2011-08-16 13:43:37 <vegard> (or even better, to be precise, the network hashing rate)
1573 2011-08-16 13:43:46 <b4epoche> my concern is that it might take a long time to get to the new difficulty
1574 2011-08-16 13:43:50 <ThomasV> indeed. and prices fluctuations are unpredictable, as opposed to rewards
1575 2011-08-16 13:44:15 <vegard> b4epoche: you're a miner, aren't you? :)
1576 2011-08-16 13:44:20 <ThomasV> I guess miners will not invest in rids in the last months of 2012, that's all
1577 2011-08-16 13:44:25 <b4epoche> what is the timing between difficulty change and payout change?
1578 2011-08-16 13:44:28 <ThomasV> *rigs*
1579 2011-08-16 13:44:39 <b4epoche> vegard:  no
1580 2011-08-16 13:44:43 <b4epoche> not a serious one
1581 2011-08-16 13:46:22 <vegard> how often does the block reward change?
1582 2011-08-16 13:46:31 <UukGoblin> vegard, well, currently, I'd have to stop mining if 1 BTC becomes worth $4.50 or less
1583 2011-08-16 13:46:45 <UukGoblin> vegard, after the /2 halving, that'll obviously jump to $9
1584 2011-08-16 13:46:55 <b4epoche> I'd worry a little about a huge run-up in difficulty before the change, then a huge drop in hash power after, and if difficulty doesn't adjust soon afterwards that 10 minute average might become a 30 minute average
1585 2011-08-16 13:47:01 <UukGoblin> but then again, difficulty will most likely drop after the halving
1586 2011-08-16 13:47:24 <vegard> UukGoblin: makes sense, yes.
1587 2011-08-16 13:48:24 phungus is now known as TomatoP
1588 2011-08-16 13:48:39 TomatoP is now known as phungus
1589 2011-08-16 13:50:04 <vegard> UukGoblin: so the jump to $9 should be okay, will you be able to handle the next one, to $18?
1590 2011-08-16 13:50:55 <vegard> er
1591 2011-08-16 13:51:10 <vegard> @UukGoblin> vegard, after the /2 halving, that'll obviously jump to $9
1592 2011-08-16 13:51:10 <SuprTiggr> vegard: Error: "UukGoblin>" is not a valid command.
1593 2011-08-16 13:51:20 <edcba> haha
1594 2011-08-16 13:51:28 <edcba> @"
1595 2011-08-16 13:51:29 <SuprTiggr> edcba: Error: No closing quotation
1596 2011-08-16 13:51:36 <edcba> @1/0
1597 2011-08-16 13:51:38 <SuprTiggr> edcba: Error: "1/0" is not a valid command.
1598 2011-08-16 13:51:55 <edcba> @'
1599 2011-08-16 13:51:57 <SuprTiggr> edcba: Error: "'" is not a valid command.
1600 2011-08-16 13:52:09 <edcba> i don't see why it accepts quotes
1601 2011-08-16 13:52:20 <edcba> @"help"
1602 2011-08-16 13:52:20 <SuprTiggr> edcba: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
1603 2011-08-16 13:52:38 <UukGoblin> vegard, well, it's impossible to say what the price will be then
1604 2011-08-16 13:53:01 <UukGoblin> vegard, and difficulty, actually
1605 2011-08-16 13:53:15 <vegard> too many unknowns :-/
1606 2011-08-16 13:53:26 <edcba> @"help" con\con help
1607 2011-08-16 13:53:26 <SuprTiggr> edcba: Error: There is no command "con\con help".
1608 2011-08-16 13:53:42 <vegard> but at some point, fees will have to sustain the security of the block chain
1609 2011-08-16 13:53:49 <vegard> alone
1610 2011-08-16 13:53:50 <UukGoblin> it's a fairly simple equation, involving the price of power, 5970 efficiency, payout per block, difficulty and price of bitcoin
1611 2011-08-16 13:53:56 <edcba> anyway after bitcoin reward halving bitcoin change rate may rise
1612 2011-08-16 13:53:58 <UukGoblin> yeah
1613 2011-08-16 13:54:06 <UukGoblin> I was quite unhappy when the fees were lowered...
1614 2011-08-16 13:54:19 <UukGoblin> I was starting to get quite a share from them, sometimes even half a bitcoin from the fees alone
1615 2011-08-16 13:54:43 <UukGoblin> now it's less than 0.01 again
1616 2011-08-16 13:55:13 <UukGoblin> that's why I'm trying to push to make them saner... or configurable or something
1617 2011-08-16 13:55:37 <UukGoblin> the latter, actually
1618 2011-08-16 13:57:02 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: you gonna merge my pull reqs? stale_reason_split and work_expire_enhancements :P
1619 2011-08-16 13:58:49 <UukGoblin> luke-jr_, ah... wanted to ask... do you know if the getwork-dedupe one was merged? or is it in one of the branches you've just mentioned?
1620 2011-08-16 13:59:23 <UukGoblin> oh, and I also wanted to ask if the race condition crash was fixed yet... the one I was seeing when running p2pool
1621 2011-08-16 14:01:30 copumpkin has joined
1622 2011-08-16 14:03:22 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: I gave up on trying to get Satoshi client stuff merged. pushpool tends to be more merge-friendly though.
1623 2011-08-16 14:04:21 <UukGoblin> :-<
1624 2011-08-16 14:07:04 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: hopefully someone will fork the Satoshi client someday and merge things
1625 2011-08-16 14:07:33 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: did you forget about my google maps request ?
1626 2011-08-16 14:07:38 <UukGoblin> I thought that's kinda what Gavin was doing
1627 2011-08-16 14:09:28 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: Gavin is too busy trolling against tonal where he imagines it to merge things apparently. :p
1628 2011-08-16 14:10:04 <ThomasV> trolling against tonal ? LOL
1629 2011-08-16 14:10:33 <UukGoblin> lolol
1630 2011-08-16 14:10:47 <ThomasV> how can people be so mean ?
1631 2011-08-16 14:11:45 <ThomasV> btw, did you convince the Federal Reserve about the tonal dollar ?
1632 2011-08-16 14:12:08 <UukGoblin> tonalolar
1633 2011-08-16 14:12:09 <luke-jr_> why would I want worthless paper?
1634 2011-08-16 14:12:35 <ThomasV> dollar is not worthless ; you can buy bitcoins with it
1635 2011-08-16 14:12:43 <luke-jr_> anyhow, your attitude is exactly what goes against getting things accomplished
1636 2011-08-16 14:13:04 * ThomasV feels guilty
1637 2011-08-16 14:13:58 <jgarzik> luke-jr_: yeah, gonna catch up this week.  still sluggish due to house move
1638 2011-08-16 14:13:58 <luke-jr_> moreover, this is the same kind of bigotry that will be used against Bitcoin before it gets mainstream adoption.
1639 2011-08-16 14:14:27 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: k; I'm waiting on these small things getting into mainline before I rebase my noncerange stuff and try to get something working again
1640 2011-08-16 14:14:51 <luke-jr_> right now I think it's slightly incompatible with these other branches I'm using
1641 2011-08-16 14:15:44 <ThomasV> hmm can I measure my body weight in the tonal system ?
1642 2011-08-16 14:16:00 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: re rollntime/expire support-- it's been running for quite some time on Eligius now and no issues have been observed
1643 2011-08-16 14:17:01 <luke-jr_> ThomasV: if you're serious, you can ask in #Tonal ; if not, I'm content ignoring
1644 2011-08-16 14:17:13 * ThomasV is eating tonal carrots
1645 2011-08-16 14:17:39 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * rb2fd0ca / src/makefile.unix :
1646 2011-08-16 14:17:39 <CIA-101> bitcoin: src/makefile.unix: remove -DFOURWAYSSE2
1647 2011-08-16 14:17:39 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Spotted by Venkatesh Srinivas <me@endeavour.zapto.org> - http://bit.ly/qCjz1f
1648 2011-08-16 14:17:52 <edcba> i think it's almost tonal time
1649 2011-08-16 14:18:22 <ThomasV> luke-jr_: seriously, I can imagine that, no matter how useful the tonal system is, it is NOT the point of bitcoin
1650 2011-08-16 14:19:18 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, sure, but then again, I believe it's not just tonal stuff that luke is trying to get merged...
1651 2011-08-16 14:19:26 <luke-jr_> ThomasV: the point of bitcoin varies from person to person.
1652 2011-08-16 14:19:53 <luke-jr_> ThomasV: for me, 100% of my reason for involvement in bitcoin is to provide the Tonal system with a viable currency. I have no other reason to use it.
1653 2011-08-16 14:19:59 <edcba> the original point doesn't vary
1654 2011-08-16 14:20:02 <ThomasV> UukGoblin: I would not know that. I only read that Gavin is trolling against tonal stuff
1655 2011-08-16 14:20:11 <luke-jr_> nobody is going to agree on a single reason to use Bitcoin if it is to gain widespread adoption.
1656 2011-08-16 14:20:17 karnac has joined
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1658 2011-08-16 14:20:31 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: in fact, not a single one of my merge requests has been tonal-related
1659 2011-08-16 14:20:56 <ThomasV> luke-jr_: so why is Gavin trolling then ?
1660 2011-08-16 14:21:01 <UukGoblin> luke-jr_, aah, yeah, I kinda thought that might be the case
1661 2011-08-16 14:21:25 Joric has joined
1662 2011-08-16 14:22:00 <jgarzik> luke-jr_: I see the state_reason_split pull req a-ok.  Don't see any others.
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1665 2011-08-16 14:27:03 <vv01f> hello, where to put suggestions for the client?
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1668 2011-08-16 14:27:44 <UukGoblin> vv01f, /dev/null ;-)
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1672 2011-08-16 14:28:12 <UukGoblin> vv01f, but srsly, just go ahead; it's probably already been discussed
1673 2011-08-16 14:28:20 luke-jr_ has quit (Excess Flood)
1674 2011-08-16 14:28:25 <vv01f> mh, so many already or really no intrest in discussing things..
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1678 2011-08-16 14:28:50 <UukGoblin> vv01f, there's a lot of stuff needed and waiting already
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1680 2011-08-16 14:28:57 <vv01f> kk
1681 2011-08-16 14:29:01 <UukGoblin> but go ahead
1682 2011-08-16 14:29:02 <luke-jr_> [10:19:06] <luke-jr_> jgarzik: work_expire_enhancements was one from before you left-- you wanted to wait on it just in case changing the X-Roll-NTime header changed miner behaviour
1683 2011-08-16 14:29:03 <luke-jr_> [10:19:24] <luke-jr_> jgarzik: repo is the same as s_r_s ofc
1684 2011-08-16 14:29:38 Mad7Scientist has joined
1685 2011-08-16 14:29:39 <vv01f> 1st i find the help texts not very meaningful basically
1686 2011-08-16 14:29:59 <vv01f> but i doubt it would be accepted when changed by myself
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1694 2011-08-16 14:34:57 <peter3459781> It's been almost 2 days since the last block on TESTNET. Would it be possible for someone to mine it a little? Thanks.
1695 2011-08-16 14:35:28 Aexoden has joined
1696 2011-08-16 14:35:47 <luke-jr_> peter3459781: how about you? :P
1697 2011-08-16 14:35:49 vv01f has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1698 2011-08-16 14:36:03 <peter3459781> I have only CPU to mine with here.
1699 2011-08-16 14:36:15 <UukGoblin> peter3459781, I can mine it a little if you pay me...
1700 2011-08-16 14:36:23 <UukGoblin> let's think...
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1702 2011-08-16 14:36:30 <peter3459781> Well, I'd want to own the testnet coins in that case.
1703 2011-08-16 14:36:48 <UukGoblin> peter3459781, yeah, that could be done
1704 2011-08-16 14:37:27 <peter3459781> Slight problem: I'm so cheap I don't have any bitcoins and do my dev work only on testnet (so far).
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1706 2011-08-16 14:37:48 <peter3459781> And what would a fair exchange rate be for test vs main bitcoind?
1707 2011-08-16 14:37:53 <UukGoblin> sligth problem #2: I'd want more bitcoins than I currently get from mining on the mainnet
1708 2011-08-16 14:38:00 <kinlo> peter3459781: what are you working on?
1709 2011-08-16 14:38:18 <peter3459781> A few projects.
1710 2011-08-16 14:38:32 <jgarzik> luke-jr_: can you please send me a [one more?] pull request email for work_expire_enhancements?
1711 2011-08-16 14:38:40 <luke-jr_> peter3459781: TNBTC have no value, but any miner is likely to want reimbursement for the time he could have been mining on mainnet
1712 2011-08-16 14:39:08 <kinlo> peter3459781: I can send you a few testnetcoins if you'd like
1713 2011-08-16 14:39:19 <kinlo> but that wont solve the mining problem :)
1714 2011-08-16 14:39:34 <peter3459781> Thanks, someone generously sent me some testnet coins a few weeks back. I have all I need (5) for my purposes.
1715 2011-08-16 14:39:58 <kinlo> well, as they have no value, it's no issue
1716 2011-08-16 14:40:06 <kinlo> I have several mined blocks
1717 2011-08-16 14:40:10 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: sent
1718 2011-08-16 14:40:34 <peter3459781> Ok. Well… mrQF7mReN2zDG7fNtBxFLDeVReYxe9FL3F
1719 2011-08-16 14:40:43 <kinlo> in any case, you still need to find a block :)
1720 2011-08-16 14:41:16 <luke-jr_> peter3459781: maybe ask in #bitcoin-mining or #eligius
1721 2011-08-16 14:41:29 <kinlo> if he has BTC's to trade :)
1722 2011-08-16 14:41:35 <luke-jr_> peter3459781: mentioning the "good cause" for it might encourage donation of GPU time too
1723 2011-08-16 14:41:43 <kinlo> peter3459781: sent you 30 TBTC :)
1724 2011-08-16 14:42:02 <kinlo> but testnet difficulty must go down
1725 2011-08-16 14:42:04 <luke-jr_> (ie, what specifically it helps)
1726 2011-08-16 14:42:19 <peter3459781> Cool, thanks.
1727 2011-08-16 14:43:01 <peter3459781> It's a lovely transaction. I wonder if it will even be confirmed.
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1731 2011-08-16 14:43:56 <Joric> may i have 30 terabtc too?
1732 2011-08-16 14:44:14 <Joric> oh you're talking about testnet
1733 2011-08-16 14:44:19 <kinlo> duh...
1734 2011-08-16 14:44:24 <luke-jr_> TNBTC* :p
1735 2011-08-16 14:44:25 <TuxBlackEdo> 1btc for 10tbct :P
1736 2011-08-16 14:44:38 <kinlo> this is the developers channel :p
1737 2011-08-16 14:44:57 <kinlo> it's only normal people use testnets here :)
1738 2011-08-16 14:45:07 <TuxBlackEdo> that'd be funny, a exchange for testnet coins
1739 2011-08-16 14:45:11 <Joric> i use testnet in a box mostly
1740 2011-08-16 14:45:31 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/brutus
1741 2011-08-16 14:45:53 <kinlo> peter3459781: so tell me, what are you making? :)
1742 2011-08-16 14:46:02 <UukGoblin> TBTC TBTC TBTC ;-)
1743 2011-08-16 14:46:12 <peter3459781> I can see some uses for a testnet economy… however, it would kill it's value as a testbed. For example if BTC gambling was to happen, you might setup a "play money" area on testnet.
1744 2011-08-16 14:46:16 <kinlo> peter3459781: I just sent you 30 tnbtc, so I think I bought myself an explanation :p
1745 2011-08-16 14:46:34 <peter3459781> Well I can't be sure it was you… but I am making a "block explorer".
1746 2011-08-16 14:46:35 <kinlo> no, the purpose of the testnet is just to have no value
1747 2011-08-16 14:46:37 <Joric> teenage mutant ninja coins
1748 2011-08-16 14:47:06 <peter3459781> Yes, it would be dangerous (annoying) if an exchange rate between BTC and testnet-BTC was to be established.
1749 2011-08-16 14:47:09 <luke-jr_> peter3459781: like pident?
1750 2011-08-16 14:47:26 <kinlo> that would be nice, to have 3 different blockexplorers :)
1751 2011-08-16 14:47:33 <peter3459781> More pretty, and I found any BTC project I imagined needed a good database. Redis as backend.
1752 2011-08-16 14:47:45 <kinlo> luke-jr_: you didn't answer my question in private did you? :)
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1754 2011-08-16 14:48:03 <luke-jr_> what question?
1755 2011-08-16 14:48:08 <kinlo> luke-jr_: wanted to know if pident was yours
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1757 2011-08-16 14:48:40 <luke-jr_> kinlo: no, artefact2's
1758 2011-08-16 14:48:57 <kinlo> ic
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1765 2011-08-16 15:16:48 <Graet> if BTC gambling was to happen,  <, it already is one gambling busines is up for sale even
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1768 2011-08-16 15:22:59 <kinlo> luke-jr_: is there a pident for testnet?
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1774 2011-08-16 15:29:57 <grondilu> Hi, my bitcoind process doesn't answer and doesn't want to stop :(
1775 2011-08-16 15:30:29 <SomeoneWeird> ctrl+c?
1776 2011-08-16 15:31:03 <grondilu> couldn't this corrupt my wallet?
1777 2011-08-16 15:31:52 <phungus> probably not
1778 2011-08-16 15:32:03 <phungus> unless it's hung on trying to write something to it
1779 2011-08-16 15:32:10 <phungus> not likely
1780 2011-08-16 15:32:27 <phungus> copy wallet.dat off
1781 2011-08-16 15:32:30 <phungus> just in case
1782 2011-08-16 15:32:37 <SomeoneWeird> ^
1783 2011-08-16 15:32:40 <phungus> and remember to make backups
1784 2011-08-16 15:33:20 <phungus> if the wallet.dat can become corrupted that easily, we're all in for a world of hurt
1785 2011-08-16 15:33:29 <phungus> I don't think it's in danger
1786 2011-08-16 15:33:31 <phungus> :-)
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1789 2011-08-16 15:37:06 <luke-jr_> kinlo: no ideas
1790 2011-08-16 15:41:07 <phungus> woohoo, a milestone
1791 2011-08-16 15:41:19 <phungus> 11:34 <Bot> Bitcoin getbalance for phungus: 0.0003
1792 2011-08-16 15:42:12 <phungus> probably not exciting to anyone but me, of course. :-)
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1799 2011-08-16 16:00:07 <Joric> firefox 6.0 has been released
1800 2011-08-16 16:00:28 <ThomasV> does it have websockets ?
1801 2011-08-16 16:00:41 <ThomasV> I mean, default enabled
1802 2011-08-16 16:00:55 <Joric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoInPRApZcc
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1807 2011-08-16 16:04:56 <Joric> looks like it does https://developer.mozilla.org/en/WebSockets
1808 2011-08-16 16:05:18 <Joric> as MozWebSocket
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1812 2011-08-16 16:09:59 <Joric> network.websocket.enabled is true now
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1814 2011-08-16 16:11:42 <luke-jr_> Joric: probably the latest rev tho, not compatible with the older websockets
1815 2011-08-16 16:12:23 <Joric> yes, as always
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1817 2011-08-16 16:12:53 <grondilu> pfff... I had to send signal KILL to kill bitcoind
1818 2011-08-16 16:13:16 <grondilu> This is not good.  The process should catch SIGTERM or SIGHUP
1819 2011-08-16 16:13:38 <grondilu> (I'm running 0.3.21 by the way)
1820 2011-08-16 16:13:41 <luke-jr_> it does obviously
1821 2011-08-16 16:13:46 <luke-jr_> if it didn't catch it, it wouldn't work
1822 2011-08-16 16:13:48 <luke-jr_> err
1823 2011-08-16 16:13:49 <luke-jr_> it would be killed
1824 2011-08-16 16:13:52 <luke-jr_> 0.3.21 is obsolete
1825 2011-08-16 16:14:09 <grondilu> it's only a few months old
1826 2011-08-16 16:14:21 <luke-jr_> it's known to not work right
1827 2011-08-16 16:14:35 <luke-jr_> 0.3.24 or bust :p
1828 2011-08-16 16:14:47 <luke-jr_> (or use my backport patches for Gentoo)
1829 2011-08-16 16:15:19 <grondilu> I don't like to use the most recent version, as it has not much been reviewed
1830 2011-08-16 16:16:30 <luke-jr_> grondilu: then grab the backports from the gentoo ebuild
1831 2011-08-16 16:16:46 <grondilu> I'm on Debian and I know nothing about gentoo
1832 2011-08-16 16:18:00 <grondilu> I guess I'll go with 0.3.23
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1863 2011-08-16 16:37:08 <f3ndot> heads up, the wiki still points to 0.3.23
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1866 2011-08-16 16:38:48 <jrmithdobbs> so fix it
1867 2011-08-16 16:40:39 <erus`> submit a patch!
1868 2011-08-16 16:40:50 <erus`> fork the project!
1869 2011-08-16 16:40:56 <nanotube> start a new blockchain!
1870 2011-08-16 16:40:59 <nanotube> </ixcoin>
1871 2011-08-16 16:41:08 <f3ndot> I thought the wiki front page was restricted for certain people with perms
1872 2011-08-16 16:41:15 <Joric> make a pull request!
1873 2011-08-16 16:42:25 <Joric> i still can't make those right
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1877 2011-08-16 16:44:30 <erus`> i like making pull requests for 1 character spelling corrections :P
1878 2011-08-16 16:44:35 <erus`> no one ever pulls them
1879 2011-08-16 16:47:39 <Joric> i'm making a new branch but it still a ton of small changes looks like i have to roll them back into a single commit
1880 2011-08-16 16:48:53 <Joric> e.g. https://github.com/samrushing/caesure/pull/2
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1900 2011-08-16 17:09:52 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1901 2011-08-16 17:09:52 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 21 hours, 17 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> justmoon: tail -f debug.log   ... will tell you what bitcoin is doing.  I don't know how long -rescans are taking these days.
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1904 2011-08-16 17:14:29 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ping
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1916 2011-08-16 17:26:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r4802bb026c5c supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/plugin.py: GPG: add auth log
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1940 2011-08-16 18:06:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * rc4c8942a60ff supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/RatingSystem/plugin.py: RatingSystem: output rating changes to #bitcoin-otc-ratings
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1957 2011-08-16 18:38:14 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1958 2011-08-16 18:38:15 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 22 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> justmoon: tail -f debug.log   ... will tell you what bitcoin is doing.  I don't know how long -rescans are taking these days.
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1965 2011-08-16 18:52:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: what's up?
1966 2011-08-16 18:54:31 <phungus> you are our hero
1967 2011-08-16 18:54:37 <phungus> *giggle*
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1998 2011-08-16 19:33:52 <phungus> hmm, I'll ask this here too, cause it will be lost on #bitcoin. :-)
1999 2011-08-16 19:33:58 <phungus> In the interest of security: any problem with limiting a user's right to change their withdrawl address until their account shows a 0 balance? This would be to protect from someone taking over an account and changing the withdraw address themselves, stealing another users coins.
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2001 2011-08-16 19:34:59 <imsaguy2> unless of course the user loses access to the withdrawl account
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2003 2011-08-16 19:35:13 <imsaguy2> you're withdrawing to Y and Y becomes lost and you are now using Z
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2005 2011-08-16 19:37:04 <vsrinivas> has there been any talk of merging the importexporttx patches into the mainlist client?
2006 2011-08-16 19:38:04 <lfm> phungus: just as much danger of the bad guy overriding a good transaction as the other. I don't think oyu have a point.
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2012 2011-08-16 19:40:12 <lfm> vsrinivas: there is always talk of everything, good and bad.
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2023 2011-08-16 19:59:01 <phungus> yes, I understand the danger of losing the wallet
2024 2011-08-16 19:59:17 <phungus> bad guy can override the transaction how?
2025 2011-08-16 19:59:27 <phungus> if the sentto address is locked
2026 2011-08-16 20:00:01 <phungus> bad guy could log in with snarfed password and I guess could use the application to send coins to others maybe
2027 2011-08-16 20:00:06 <phungus> but not a withdraw
2028 2011-08-16 20:00:20 <phungus> well, could initiate a withdraw but it would go back to the original user
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2030 2011-08-16 20:03:20 <phungus> I'm just worried about relying on just passwords for security. I'd like to ensure that in the event a password is compromised, any coins linked to that account could not be withdrawn to a different bitcoin address. I guess you could still use the application to funnel funds out via whatever mechanism is available, but at least it wouldn't be doing it through bitcoin. There would be a chance to reverse the transactions.
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2033 2011-08-16 20:03:38 <lfm> phungus: what is a withdraw? there are just transactions on bitcoin
2034 2011-08-16 20:04:03 <phungus> withdraw would be moving from an application's bitcoin wallett to a user's bitcoin wallet
2035 2011-08-16 20:04:12 <phungus> using the standard bitcoin api
2036 2011-08-16 20:04:43 <lfm> well if you lose control of your wallet you are screwed no matter what.
2037 2011-08-16 20:04:56 <phungus> this is for an irc bot, so the scenarios are a little different
2038 2011-08-16 20:05:01 <phungus> an irc server could be compromised
2039 2011-08-16 20:05:08 <phungus> passwords would be compromised then
2040 2011-08-16 20:05:36 <phungus> I wanted to rely on the initial bitcoin address registered to ensure that it didn't change
2041 2011-08-16 20:05:54 <phungus> I guess this is a special scenario. :-)
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2045 2011-08-16 20:06:05 <lfm> addresses cant change. I dont follow
2046 2011-08-16 20:06:38 <phungus> so the user signs up on the bot right, and generates a new address in their wallet. They provide this to the bot. then the bot sends it's own deposit address and waits for funds.
2047 2011-08-16 20:06:51 <phungus> funds can only ever be sent out to the original address the user registered with the bot
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2049 2011-08-16 20:06:58 <phungus> unless the balance is 0
2050 2011-08-16 20:07:01 <phungus> and then it can be changed
2051 2011-08-16 20:07:19 <lfm> no, you can always send to any address, old or new
2052 2011-08-16 20:07:28 <phungus> well, I would make the bot limit it
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2056 2011-08-16 20:07:31 <phungus> for security, see
2057 2011-08-16 20:07:52 <phungus> I don't want someone to sniff an irc privmsg password of a user trying to identify from the bot, then log in, change the bitcoin address, and withdraw coins
2058 2011-08-16 20:08:16 <phungus> I know there is SSL, but that only covers the irc network
2059 2011-08-16 20:08:23 <phungus> the individual servers are still at risk
2060 2011-08-16 20:08:38 <lfm> well I dont know what security irc has really but I dont think it is a bitcoin issue really
2061 2011-08-16 20:09:08 <phungus> eh, we can rely on freenode's cloaks and nickserv, but only until a server is compromised
2062 2011-08-16 20:09:33 <phungus> my brain has just been chewing on how to write a secure bitcoin irc bot for weeks :-)
2063 2011-08-16 20:09:57 <lfm> mayeb its just not possible
2064 2011-08-16 20:10:14 <phungus> I think it is definitely possible, just how secure is the question
2065 2011-08-16 20:10:15 <phungus> :-)
2066 2011-08-16 20:10:27 <lfm> mayeb its just not possible to make it secure
2067 2011-08-16 20:10:34 <phungus> hmm
2068 2011-08-16 20:10:35 <riush> phungus, but what if the user looses access to the wallet with that address, maybe thinking 'there are no bitcoins in it anyway' - his coins would be locked in the bot
2069 2011-08-16 20:10:45 <phungus> yes, I agree
2070 2011-08-16 20:10:50 <phungus> then it would take operator intervention
2071 2011-08-16 20:10:58 <phungus> but would have to defend against MITM
2072 2011-08-16 20:10:59 <riush> phungus, maybe a challenge/response type thing like the otc bot - 'encrypt me this string with your gpg key'?
2073 2011-08-16 20:11:13 <phungus> yeah, I've considered GPG, it's just very slow and cumbersome
2074 2011-08-16 20:11:20 <phungus> for new users anyway
2075 2011-08-16 20:11:31 <lfm> riush: thats a good point, you should never really discard any keys, no matter how old and unused you think they are
2076 2011-08-16 20:11:35 <riush> yes, thats a general problem..
2077 2011-08-16 20:12:43 <phungus> I could deliver the deposit address (from my bitcoind) via email or over the web or something and then require it to withdraw.
2078 2011-08-16 20:12:52 <phungus> via privmsg
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2081 2011-08-16 20:13:35 <riush> phungus, if you have the users email address, why not send a verification code for each withdraw?
2082 2011-08-16 20:13:58 <phungus> I may not have an email address. that seems like it would limit adoption on IRC maybe. :-)
2083 2011-08-16 20:14:08 <phungus> but yes
2084 2011-08-16 20:14:14 <phungus> that might work too
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2089 2011-08-16 20:27:38 <neofutur> in the bitcoind options ( bitcoind --help  ) I can specify -gen but theres no option to specify the number of CPU to use ? like etgenerate <generate> [genproclimit] ?
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2133 2011-08-16 21:13:52 <lfm> neofutur: you CAN specify -gen=4
2134 2011-08-16 21:14:02 <Nesetalis> hmm, if a video driver crashes.. is there a way to recover it without rebooting?
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2136 2011-08-16 21:14:24 <lfm> Nesetalis: linux or mswin?
2137 2011-08-16 21:14:27 <Nesetalis> win
2138 2011-08-16 21:14:40 <Nesetalis> it recovers but only at like 10% usability
2139 2011-08-16 21:15:01 <lfm> I'd say you prolly have to reboot
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2141 2011-08-16 21:15:17 <Nesetalis> blah, well, brb
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2146 2011-08-16 21:18:28 <Nesetalis> seems to be if i run two instances of poclbm and one shuts down, my card shits itself, which is mildly annoying to say the least
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2148 2011-08-16 21:19:15 <lfm> yes, well you should have no reason to run two instances
2149 2011-08-16 21:19:37 <Nesetalis> accidents happen.
2150 2011-08-16 21:20:18 <Nesetalis> and utilizing the GPU, even over utilizing, should just slow down, not crash.
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2154 2011-08-16 21:21:26 <neofutur> lfm: thanks i ll try this !
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2157 2011-08-16 21:23:20 <lfm> also can do -gen=0 to disable
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2161 2011-08-16 21:31:45 <neofutur> bitcoind: stack smashing attack in function <unknown> - terminated
2162 2011-08-16 21:31:45 <neofutur> Report to http://bugs.gentoo.org/
2163 2011-08-16 21:31:56 <neofutur> ;(
2164 2011-08-16 21:32:33 <kjj> reproducable?
2165 2011-08-16 21:32:33 <lfm> interesting
2166 2011-08-16 21:32:36 <b4epoche> the trojan exposed itself
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2168 2011-08-16 21:33:38 <neofutur> does bitcoind try to execute code in the stack ?
2169 2011-08-16 21:34:21 <neofutur> I ll try to reproduce
2170 2011-08-16 21:34:36 <neofutur> I always had problems running bitcoind on a gresec/pax server
2171 2011-08-16 21:34:47 <neofutur> s/gresec/grsec/
2172 2011-08-16 21:35:06 <neofutur> yup reproduced :
2173 2011-08-16 21:35:06 <neofutur> localhost sbot # bitcoin server starting
2174 2011-08-16 21:35:07 <neofutur> *** stack smashing detected ***: bitcoind - terminated
2175 2011-08-16 21:35:07 <neofutur> bitcoind: stack smashing attack in function <unknown> - terminated
2176 2011-08-16 21:35:26 <lfm> did you compile it yourself?
2177 2011-08-16 21:35:34 <neofutur> i have the problem only with bitcoind -gen=4  -daemon -server &
2178 2011-08-16 21:36:00 <lfm> did you apply any patches? what version?
2179 2011-08-16 21:36:04 <neofutur> not if not generting
2180 2011-08-16 21:36:11 <neofutur> no patches, latest gentoo ebuild
2181 2011-08-16 21:36:26 <lfm> ok thats with some luke-jr patches I think
2182 2011-08-16 21:36:27 <neofutur> [ebuild   R    ] net-p2p/bitcoind-0.3.20.2-r1  USE="sse2 ssl volatile-fees -debug (-selinux)" 0 kB [1]
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2185 2011-08-16 21:36:56 <kjj> eww.  get the source and build it yourself
2186 2011-08-16 21:37:01 <lfm> can you try compiling it with less optimization perhaps?
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2188 2011-08-16 21:37:07 <neofutur> I ll try to remove the volatile-fees use flag
2189 2011-08-16 21:37:09 <b4epoche> oh, that's the luke-jr trojan
2190 2011-08-16 21:37:58 <lfm> ya luke mentioned an option to disable one of his patches
2191 2011-08-16 21:38:13 <b4epoche> is it worth tracking down unless it's reproducible on latest version?
2192 2011-08-16 21:38:35 <lfm> depends how many people will use that gentoo package I spoze
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2194 2011-08-16 21:39:06 <b4epoche> I can't image anyone will be interested in fixing it for 0.3.20
2195 2011-08-16 21:39:19 <lfm> luke might want to know
2196 2011-08-16 21:39:35 <b4epoche> but if it's still present in latest version, I think people would care
2197 2011-08-16 21:40:13 <lfm> I think luke has some issues with the newer versions
2198 2011-08-16 21:40:17 <kjj> I would grab the latest source and try to build it using the same USE flags
2199 2011-08-16 21:40:54 <luke-jr> neofutur: is that from the ebuild?
2200 2011-08-16 21:41:19 <b4epoche> if luke-jr has issues with the newer versions he shouldn't be maintaining a distro
2201 2011-08-16 21:41:20 <lfm> remove the "voletile-fees" option, thats a lukeism I think
2202 2011-08-16 21:41:20 <luke-jr> neofutur: try -9999
2203 2011-08-16 21:41:41 <neofutur> Aug 16 23:19:41 localhost kernel: grsec: From 99.136.93.85: denied resource overstep by requesting 18 for RLIMIT_NICE against limit 0 for /usr/bin/bitcoind[bitcoind:17356] uid/euid:101/101 gid/egid:246/246, parent /sbin/init[init:1] uid/euid:0/0 gid/egid:0/0
2204 2011-08-16 21:41:57 <neofutur> luke-jr: yes latest ebuild
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2206 2011-08-16 21:42:03 <luke-jr> b4epoche: you obviously have no idea on distro maintenance :P
2207 2011-08-16 21:42:15 <neofutur> b4epoche: stop trolling
2208 2011-08-16 21:42:20 <luke-jr> neofutur: try ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86
2209 2011-08-16 21:42:24 <luke-jr> neofutur: to get -9999
2210 2011-08-16 21:42:27 <b4epoche> do you have issues with the latest version?
2211 2011-08-16 21:42:29 <neofutur> ok
2212 2011-08-16 21:42:40 <luke-jr> b4epoche: *in general*, distros do NOT upgrade versions that add new features
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2214 2011-08-16 21:42:56 <luke-jr> b4epoche: Gentoo's 0.3.20.2 has the major fixes backported
2215 2011-08-16 21:43:22 <luke-jr> making a newer version stable requires people to actually test and report that it works well
2216 2011-08-16 21:43:23 <b4epoche> luke-jr:  then that should not be called bitcoind (imo)
2217 2011-08-16 21:43:35 <luke-jr> b4epoche: then you don't use Linux
2218 2011-08-16 21:43:48 <kjj> sounds like the gre crap needs to be updated to allow it to take priority
2219 2011-08-16 21:44:00 <b4epoche> luke-jr:  not at the moment no
2220 2011-08-16 21:44:22 <neofutur> luke-jr: installing net-p2p/bitcoind-9999-r1
2221 2011-08-16 21:44:29 <b4epoche> but I've only heard about gentoo issues like this, not general linux issues
2222 2011-08-16 21:44:55 <neofutur> b4epoche: you should aout wht is grsecurity before commenting
2223 2011-08-16 21:45:06 <b4epoche> eh?
2224 2011-08-16 21:45:15 <neofutur> b4epoche: you should read about what is grsecurity before commenting
2225 2011-08-16 21:45:17 <luke-jr> b4epoche: no distro ships unpatched Linux
2226 2011-08-16 21:45:19 <lfm> entirly possible it is detecting a bug that is in the main bitcoin fork (stack smashing)
2227 2011-08-16 21:45:38 <neofutur> b4epoche: http://hardened.gentoo.org/
2228 2011-08-16 21:46:02 <luke-jr> lfm: hence why I asked him to test -9999
2229 2011-08-16 21:46:11 <neofutur> lfm: I also had pbs with stock bitcoind before
2230 2011-08-16 21:46:14 <luke-jr> neofutur: also, please be sure you have USE=eligius disabled, just in case
2231 2011-08-16 21:46:32 <neofutur>  *   emake bitcoind failed
2232 2011-08-16 21:46:36 <neofutur> with 9999
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2234 2011-08-16 21:46:39 <luke-jr> neofutur: srsly? -.-
2235 2011-08-16 21:46:45 <luke-jr> 0.3.24 then
2236 2011-08-16 21:47:46 <b4epoche> yea, having the latest source would help with debugging
2237 2011-08-16 21:47:48 <neofutur> wallet.cpp:(.text+0x520d): undefined reference to `CCrypter::Encrypt(std::vector<unsigned char, secure_allocator<unsigned char> > const&, std::vector<unsigned char, std::allocator<unsigned char> >&)'
2238 2011-08-16 21:48:56 <b4epoche> the point is that a bug in 0.3.20 (with luke-jr's back ports) may or may not be a general bug.
2239 2011-08-16 21:49:24 <lfm> and only when generating perhpas
2240 2011-08-16 21:49:40 <neofutur> luke-jr: full buld log : http://xena.ww7.be/build.log
2241 2011-08-16 21:49:43 <lfm> there is some knarly code in the generators
2242 2011-08-16 21:50:07 <b4epoche> lfm:  yea, it would appear that way…  which is probably why it's not been an issue
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2244 2011-08-16 21:50:49 <neofutur> keystore.cpp:(.text+0x1c8): undefined reference to `DecryptSecret(std::vector<unsigned char, secure_allocator<unsigned char> > const&, std::vector<unsigned char, std::allocator<unsigned char> > const&, uint256 const&, std::vector<unsigned char, secure_allocator<unsigned char> >&)'
2245 2011-08-16 21:50:55 <neofutur> first error
2246 2011-08-16 21:51:09 <luke-jr> neofutur: tried 0.3.24?
2247 2011-08-16 21:51:15 <neofutur> i will
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2253 2011-08-16 21:55:55 <neofutur> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/zipball/v0.3.24rc3 ?
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2255 2011-08-16 21:57:01 <jgarzik> neofutur: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/
2256 2011-08-16 21:57:05 <jgarzik> neofutur: 'Files' section
2257 2011-08-16 21:57:19 <luke-jr> neofutur: USE=-eligius emerge =bitcoind-0.3.24*
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2259 2011-08-16 21:58:07 <luke-jr> jgarzik: the build system is too broken to build from source without hacking it
2260 2011-08-16 21:59:20 <neofutur> any recommended build options or configure options to recommend ?
2261 2011-08-16 21:59:30 <luke-jr> neofutur: USE=-eligius emerge =bitcoind-0.3.24*
2262 2011-08-16 21:59:38 <neofutur> luke-jr: ok ill also try this
2263 2011-08-16 21:59:53 <neofutur> jgarzik: ok
2264 2011-08-16 22:00:02 <luke-jr> there is no configure
2265 2011-08-16 22:00:16 <luke-jr> you have to hack makefile.unix and pass it some long command options
2266 2011-08-16 22:00:27 <luke-jr> to build from source
2267 2011-08-16 22:01:40 * neofutur building USE=-eligius emerge =bitcoind-0.3.24*
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2269 2011-08-16 22:02:46 <neofutur> luke-jr: sme problem
2270 2011-08-16 22:02:50 <neofutur> same
2271 2011-08-16 22:02:53 <luke-jr> neofutur: which one?
2272 2011-08-16 22:03:10 <neofutur>  * start-stop-daemon: /usr/bin/bitcoind died                                                            [ !! ]
2273 2011-08-16 22:03:38 <luke-jr> paste build log?
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2275 2011-08-16 22:04:25 <neofutur> no it build ok
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2277 2011-08-16 22:04:29 <neofutur> no pb in build log
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2279 2011-08-16 22:05:54 <neofutur> hum its running but /etc/init.d/bitcoind says ERROR: bitcoind failed to start
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2282 2011-08-16 22:06:10 <gjs278> how does it check
2283 2011-08-16 22:06:18 <neofutur> tail -f /var/lib/bitcoin/.bitcoin/debug.log says its working
2284 2011-08-16 22:06:44 <lfm> neofutur: maybe try running it without the -daemon switch
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2286 2011-08-16 22:08:42 <neofutur> lfm: yeah
2287 2011-08-16 22:08:43 <neofutur>  * Starting Bitcoind daemon ...                                                                         [ ok ]
2288 2011-08-16 22:09:01 <neofutur> luke-jr: remove the default -daemon in conf.d/bitcoin ;)
2289 2011-08-16 22:09:43 <neofutur> now i ll try again with -gen=4
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2291 2011-08-16 22:10:41 <neofutur> luke-jr: everything is ok with USE=-eligius emerge =bitcoind-0.3.24*
2292 2011-08-16 22:10:52 <neofutur> i ll try without the USE=-eligius
2293 2011-08-16 22:12:20 <neofutur> built and running, I ll wat some hours to see if its not crashing
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2298 2011-08-16 22:14:27 <luke-jr> neofutur: if you could test 0.3.23-r1, 0.3.22-r1, and 0.3.21-r1 too…
2299 2011-08-16 22:15:10 <lfm> the problem is when he specifies -gen=4 ?
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2301 2011-08-16 22:15:27 <neofutur> now it works with -gen=4
2302 2011-08-16 22:15:29 <lfm> on 0.3.20-xx
2303 2011-08-16 22:15:34 <luke-jr> what does -gen=4 do? O.o
2304 2011-08-16 22:15:37 <luke-jr> lfm: 0.3.20.2
2305 2011-08-16 22:15:41 <neofutur> aloow to use 4 cores
2306 2011-08-16 22:15:44 <luke-jr> o
2307 2011-08-16 22:15:49 <lfm> turns on 4 cpus for generating
2308 2011-08-16 22:15:56 <luke-jr> so a minor bug at worst
2309 2011-08-16 22:16:03 <luke-jr> lfm: also, it's under some security framework
2310 2011-08-16 22:16:07 <neofutur> ( yes I dont pay power nd use idle cpu time ;)
2311 2011-08-16 22:16:20 <lfm> ya, not many people doing cpu generating with bitcoind any more
2312 2011-08-16 22:16:23 <luke-jr> neofutur: even if you don't pay power, you're better off with cgminer ;)
2313 2011-08-16 22:16:35 <neofutur> lfm: grsecurity + full PIE/SSP toolchin can help find bugs ;)
2314 2011-08-16 22:16:52 <gjs278> oh wow never knew that
2315 2011-08-16 22:16:52 <neofutur> luke-jr: https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/issues/27
2316 2011-08-16 22:16:54 <gjs278> about -gen
2317 2011-08-16 22:16:56 <neofutur> concerning cgminer
2318 2011-08-16 22:17:03 <gjs278> oh
2319 2011-08-16 22:17:10 <gjs278> I thought it was for bitcoind like blockchain handling
2320 2011-08-16 22:17:11 <neofutur> and after i get it working it gets 90% rejected shares
2321 2011-08-16 22:17:11 <lfm> neofutur: yup, should try to port to OpenBSD too eh?
2322 2011-08-16 22:17:49 <luke-jr> gjs278: it's solominer
2323 2011-08-16 22:17:54 <luke-jr> neofutur: bad clock?
2324 2011-08-16 22:18:03 <neofutur> luke-jr: you plan on including a cpuminer/cgminer in the gentoo ebuilds ?
2325 2011-08-16 22:18:18 <lfm> gjs278: you should notice some cpu utilization in for example top
2326 2011-08-16 22:18:18 <luke-jr> neofutur: dunno, cpuminer at least sounds easy
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2328 2011-08-16 22:18:21 <neofutur> luke-jr: cpu clock ?
2329 2011-08-16 22:18:31 <luke-jr> neofutur: system time is important to bitcoin
2330 2011-08-16 22:18:36 <neofutur> how would I check this ?
2331 2011-08-16 22:18:52 <lfm> date -u
2332 2011-08-16 22:19:07 <lfm> should be near Tue Aug 16 22:12:46 UTC 2011
2333 2011-08-16 22:19:38 <neofutur> i cant run a miner on a comuter not set on UTC ?
2334 2011-08-16 22:19:52 <neofutur> Tue Aug 16 22:13:27 UTC 2011
2335 2011-08-16 22:19:57 <neofutur> clock seems ok
2336 2011-08-16 22:20:02 <lfm> you dont need to set the system to utc. local time can be any time zone
2337 2011-08-16 22:20:14 <neofutur> ok so its not the pb
2338 2011-08-16 22:20:35 <lfm> a bit slow perhaps  but not a problem
2339 2011-08-16 22:21:03 <neofutur> if anyone is interested, try running valgrind on cgminer . . . I were afrid
2340 2011-08-16 22:21:06 <neofutur> afraid
2341 2011-08-16 22:22:32 <neofutur> (00:10) <    gjs278> oh wow never knew that
2342 2011-08-16 22:22:40 <neofutur> its not specified in the --help
2343 2011-08-16 22:22:58 <gjs278> I knew it was there for mining, I thought it was there for blockchain handling though
2344 2011-08-16 22:23:04 <gjs278> that would be cool
2345 2011-08-16 22:23:07 <gjs278> mining is not cool
2346 2011-08-16 22:24:37 <neofutur> jgarzik: which version  or fork of cpuminer would you recommend ?
2347 2011-08-16 22:25:15 <neofutur> https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer/network  <- so many forks
2348 2011-08-16 22:25:19 <lfm> cgminer
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2350 2011-08-16 22:26:19 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf44ddf24f7b7 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (4 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: Add crypter.o to Makefile
2351 2011-08-16 22:26:20 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rb4d974583024 gentoo/net-p2p/ (6 files in 3 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind: Add -pthread to CXXFLAGS and LDFLAGS, just in case; also redigest wxbitcoin
2352 2011-08-16 22:26:38 <neofutur> lfm: already tried :
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2354 2011-08-16 22:26:51 <neofutur> https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/issues/27
2355 2011-08-16 22:26:56 <neofutur> and :
2356 2011-08-16 22:27:17 <neofutur> (00:14) <  neofutur> if anyone is interested, try running valgrind on cgminer . . . I were afraid
2357 2011-08-16 22:28:00 <lfm> whew dunno then
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2376 2011-08-16 22:56:19 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * ra7e307e8b487 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest files/bitcoin.confd files/bitcoin.initd): net-p2p/bitcoind: Don't suggest -daemon, since that breaks pidfile
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2388 2011-08-16 23:06:19 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r2453dc452ee1 gentoo/net-p2p/spesmilo/ (Manifest spesmilo-0.0.1_beta1.ebuild spesmilo-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/spesmilo: DEPEND on pyside 1.0+
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2409 2011-08-16 23:26:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r441c9dfa0ae7 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest files/9999-Makefile.gentoo wxbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: Add crypter.o to Makefile
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