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  20 2011-08-18 00:23:42 <jrmithdobbs> hrm, does openssl not provide sha256 functions? thought it did
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  22 2011-08-18 00:24:24 <samr7> jrmithdobbs, where you seeing this?
  23 2011-08-18 00:24:38 <jrmithdobbs> think it's just one of those things missing from the documentation
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  26 2011-08-18 00:26:32 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, it does and yes it's missing from the docs
  27 2011-08-18 00:26:42 <phantomcircuit> as always the only complete documentation for openssl are the headers
  28 2011-08-18 00:27:02 <jrmithdobbs> not even
  29 2011-08-18 00:27:05 <jrmithdobbs> more like the full source
  30 2011-08-18 00:27:56 <samr7> sad state of affairs
  31 2011-08-18 00:30:04 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i should be able to feed random chunks of data at a time to all of openssl's hash functions, yes?
  32 2011-08-18 00:30:46 <jrmithdobbs> (just using it for a checksum)
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  78 2011-08-18 01:59:33 <zeropointo> is there a json call to get the last difficulty?
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  82 2011-08-18 02:06:58 <zeropointo> it would be nice if most of the bitcoin client commands like "getdifficulty" had an additional param like [block #] or [date]
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  91 2011-08-18 02:27:35 <Plasma_> zeropointo, maybe blockexplorer.com/q ?
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 103 2011-08-18 02:55:51 <kreal-> ;;seen Myckel
 104 2011-08-18 02:55:52 <gribble> Myckel was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 15 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 1 minute, and 53 seconds ago: <Myckel> I mean very short term (like in next hour)
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 142 2011-08-18 04:11:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r27ceffa / src/transaction.js : Split getDescription() into two functions. - http://bit.ly/pXQ4gU
 143 2011-08-18 04:11:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r9fee035 / src/txdb.js : Added utility function for TransactionDatabase reset. - http://bit.ly/nCRoKN
 144 2011-08-18 04:11:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r90c30f2 / (src/eckey.js src/wallet.js): Moved wallet loading out of bitcoinjs-lib. - http://bit.ly/qQ9KWd
 145 2011-08-18 04:11:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r721d079 / src/wallet.js : Added ability to add fees in createSend. - http://bit.ly/nOQvY8
 146 2011-08-18 04:11:57 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r6fdba19 / src/util.js : New utility function for parsing value strings. - http://bit.ly/ro67r1
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 150 2011-08-18 04:17:33 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * rb93d206 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Added HTTPS exit node support. - http://bit.ly/olZL6q
 151 2011-08-18 04:17:34 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r461b7a7 / (index.html scripts/vendor/requirejs/require.js): Added Require.JS. - http://bit.ly/p7uOo3
 152 2011-08-18 04:17:34 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r89b1821 / (13 files in 5 dirs): Switched to using Require.JS to load the client. - http://bit.ly/ozpv8u
 153 2011-08-18 04:17:34 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * r5d63df6 / (25 files in 15 dirs): Added mobile interface. (Desktop interface temporarily disabled.) - http://bit.ly/rkwabM
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 168 2011-08-18 05:05:15 <josephcp> Does anyone have any experience with bitcoin-js?
 169 2011-08-18 05:05:50 <josephcp> I'm playing around with it and am having trouble with running the exit node
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 220 2011-08-18 07:18:00 <d33tah> where can I find qbitcoin sources?
 221 2011-08-18 07:19:29 <luke-jr> you can't.
 222 2011-08-18 07:19:35 <luke-jr> MagicalTux never released any yet
 223 2011-08-18 07:19:47 <d33tah> doesn't seem too open
 224 2011-08-18 07:20:01 <d33tah> btw, luke-jr, i have a eligius-related problem, can I PM?
 225 2011-08-18 07:20:01 <luke-jr> not to be confused with bitcoin-qt
 226 2011-08-18 07:20:05 <luke-jr> d33tah: #Eligius
 227 2011-08-18 07:20:36 <d33tah> it'd take admin anyway. i mined a few shares on a new account and they didn't appear on the stats even hours later
 228 2011-08-18 07:20:55 <d33tah> hm, and bitcoin-qt? didn't know there are 2 qt bitcoin projects
 229 2011-08-18 07:21:11 <luke-jr> d33tah: still prefer to talk in public if possible
 230 2011-08-18 07:21:23 <d33tah> mkay
 231 2011-08-18 07:21:26 <luke-jr> bitcoin-qt is just the branch of the Satoshi client with Qt instead of wx, planned to merge for 0.4
 232 2011-08-18 07:21:35 <luke-jr> qbitcoin is an entirely new client stack
 233 2011-08-18 07:21:43 <d33tah> are they giving up on wx completely?
 234 2011-08-18 07:21:45 <d33tah> that would be cool
 235 2011-08-18 07:21:47 <d33tah> i hate wx :P
 236 2011-08-18 07:21:54 <luke-jr> unless someone steps up to maintain it I guess :P
 237 2011-08-18 07:22:49 <d33tah> let's hope not :P
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 300 2011-08-18 10:44:11 <Vladimir> Hi all
 301 2011-08-18 10:44:48 <Vladimir> I have a question for bitcoin developers about proposed shared mining
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 304 2011-08-18 10:46:20 <Vladimir> Don't you think that Vince has almost pulled off a successful attack on bitcoin with this shared mining idea? The attack which will compromise fundamental principles of Bitcoin?
 305 2011-08-18 10:47:05 <Vladimir> Anyone? Just want some second opinions before I get real loud about this?
 306 2011-08-18 10:48:33 <d33tah> you mean mining in pools?
 307 2011-08-18 10:48:59 <d33tah> Vladimir?
 308 2011-08-18 10:50:00 <Vladimir> no I mean namecoin becoming parasite on Bitcoin netwrok
 309 2011-08-18 10:50:08 <d33tah> namecoin?
 310 2011-08-18 10:50:36 <Vladimir> google 'namecoin shared mining'
 311 2011-08-18 10:50:49 <noagendamarket> it doesnt hurt bitcoin
 312 2011-08-18 10:50:54 <phantomcircuit> Vladimir, who gives a shit? they're on their own network
 313 2011-08-18 10:51:48 <Vladimir> I unerstand, that is the point they want to patch bitcoin code to allow them to let bitcoin miners to solve namecoin blocks 'by the way'
 314 2011-08-18 10:52:39 marf_away has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 315 2011-08-18 10:53:04 <Vladimir> noagendamarket, I think it does, it really terminally does, if this shared mining idea is allowed, just trying to check here if I completely insane with this or someone else can see it too
 316 2011-08-18 10:55:47 <edcba> the way is not to merge namecoin and bitcoin
 317 2011-08-18 10:56:14 <edcba> it's to completely abstract the block chain away from bitcoin
 318 2011-08-18 10:56:55 <gjs278> namecoin and bitcoin mining will never be merged in the official client... if someone wants to mod their poclbm to mine bitcoins and namecoins 50/50 each, that's up to them
 319 2011-08-18 10:57:04 <gjs278> it's their gpus after all
 320 2011-08-18 10:57:15 <edcba> i don't think their goal is to 50/50
 321 2011-08-18 10:57:38 zamgo has joined
 322 2011-08-18 10:59:06 <gjs278> I really don't get what the shared mining is then
 323 2011-08-18 11:01:40 <gjs278> oh
 324 2011-08-18 11:01:41 <gjs278> I get it now
 325 2011-08-18 11:02:11 <gjs278> lol I also don't care
 326 2011-08-18 11:02:13 <gjs278> fuck namecoins
 327 2011-08-18 11:02:19 <Vladimir> gjs278, so are you saying that there is no defence against this and consequently that there will be nearly infinite number of blockhains with difficulty approaching taht of Bitcoin?
 328 2011-08-18 11:02:52 <gjs278> none of the other blockchains will have real value behind them unless someone is dumb enough to pay for the coins from that one
 329 2011-08-18 11:03:13 <gjs278> if anything this hurts namecoin, not bitcoin
 330 2011-08-18 11:05:41 <gjs278> namecoin already has a high enough difficulty that nobody can mine on it because nobody cares about namecoins
 331 2011-08-18 11:06:13 <gjs278> when merged mining is available, there will be more namecoins in existance, the value of each namecoin goes down, the difficulty still goes up, and nobody uses namecoin because it's a waste of time project
 332 2011-08-18 11:06:41 <jtaylor> no the number of namecoins does not change
 333 2011-08-18 11:06:42 larsig has joined
 334 2011-08-18 11:06:44 <jtaylor> just the difficulty
 335 2011-08-18 11:07:35 <gjs278> if you find a block of namecoins does that make another block of namecoins expire or something?
 336 2011-08-18 11:07:52 <noagendamarket> why does namecoin get promoted to merged mining above any other fork ?
 337 2011-08-18 11:08:48 <Vladimir> because Vince is running so far successful community infiltration attack IMO and everyone ust loves the trojan horse he pushing into our castle
 338 2011-08-18 11:09:21 <zamgo> +1 Vladimir
 339 2011-08-18 11:09:35 <gjs278> it doesn't matter if there are thousands of blockchains, I'm not willing to pay for coins from the other chains
 340 2011-08-18 11:09:46 <gjs278> anyone who is can waste their money on it
 341 2011-08-18 11:09:49 <zamgo> plus, saving name/values in a blockchain is just cool
 342 2011-08-18 11:10:27 <Vladimir> I really have one more important question, can we ensure (technically) that this merged mining never ever happens? I am not asking will we I am asking can we?
 343 2011-08-18 11:10:49 <hugolp> Vladimir: you can not stop the pools from using a modified bitcoind
 344 2011-08-18 11:10:54 <hugolp> if that is what you are asking
 345 2011-08-18 11:10:56 <Vladimir> It does, this is compromising Bitcoin network
 346 2011-08-18 11:11:09 <gjs278> how
 347 2011-08-18 11:11:22 <hugolp> Vladimir: its not compromising the Bitcoin network, but it could hurt a lot Bitcoin
 348 2011-08-18 11:11:56 <gjs278> it will just make the bitcoin difficulty go up when the people who were previously mining on namecoin can now use their resources on bitcoin
 349 2011-08-18 11:12:08 <gjs278> what else am I supposed to be worrying about?
 350 2011-08-18 11:12:24 <noagendamarket> how the fuck do I use namecoin ? lol
 351 2011-08-18 11:12:32 <coderrr> gjs278, i think he's saying now there's going ot be X netwokrs just as secure as bitcoin
 352 2011-08-18 11:12:43 <Vladimir> It can quickly create infinite number of competing crypto currencies which bootstrap from Bitcoin, thus eliminating our most valuable competitive advantage
 353 2011-08-18 11:12:45 <hugolp> when people have namecoins, they will want to use them, why not? so it will be an incentive for merchants to accept namecoins as well. And namecoins would have adquired their popularity by leeching from Bitcoin and hurting its value. Then other coins will do the same, and the mess will be complete, hurting bit time Bitcoin value.
 354 2011-08-18 11:12:46 <coderrr> so it gets rid of one adoption hurdle of a new currency ?
 355 2011-08-18 11:12:54 <gjs278> well
 356 2011-08-18 11:12:56 <coderrr> and now ur only left with network effects protecting bitcoin
 357 2011-08-18 11:13:22 <gjs278> who even takes namecoins now?
 358 2011-08-18 11:13:24 <coderrr> and if a big payment processor like mtgox or something decides to start accepting any currency you've effectively diluted bitcoins
 359 2011-08-18 11:13:38 <Vladimir> coderrr: yep, and I do not think it is enough
 360 2011-08-18 11:13:43 <gjs278> the coins from the other chains won't be worth anything
 361 2011-08-18 11:13:55 <Vladimir> this is inflation by proxy
 362 2011-08-18 11:14:09 <noagendamarket> ++
 363 2011-08-18 11:14:15 <Vladimir> tehy worth something because the are protected by Bitcoin security
 364 2011-08-18 11:14:25 <coderrr> yea this is pretty interesting, and scary
 365 2011-08-18 11:14:27 <hugolp> Vladimir:  there are two solutions as I see it. One, convince everybody how this can hurt Bitcoin so people refuses to mine in a pool that does merged mining.
 366 2011-08-18 11:14:42 <Vladimir> it is like Ebay inviting any start up auction house to use it's websites
 367 2011-08-18 11:14:50 <noagendamarket> technically you can have unlimited forks,as many coins as you need to print
 368 2011-08-18 11:15:01 <noagendamarket> there is no end
 369 2011-08-18 11:15:03 <coderrr> Vladimir, i havent looked into it much yet.. so this only requires that miners update their code ?
 370 2011-08-18 11:15:06 <hugolp> Two, start a mirriade of competing currencies and add them to merged mining so the mess will be so big that people will ignore them and stay with Bitcoin.
 371 2011-08-18 11:15:21 <gjs278> the miners don't have to update code, the pools do
 372 2011-08-18 11:15:33 <coderrr> so only the pools... damn thats worse
 373 2011-08-18 11:15:34 <Vladimir> hugolp: you are optimist
 374 2011-08-18 11:15:50 <gjs278> whoever you're submitting your hashes to can do whatever they want with them in the end
 375 2011-08-18 11:16:07 <hugolp> Vladimir: so what do you want to do about it?
 376 2011-08-18 11:16:24 <hugolp> beside presure to the pools and trying to create a mess, whats left?
 377 2011-08-18 11:16:39 <Vladimir> I think we can quadruple exchange rate of bitcoin overnite if this was ont a creadible terminal thread, and vice versa, BTW the fall of Bitcoin on markets coincides with namecoin's merged mining noises
 378 2011-08-18 11:17:01 <Vladimir> dump all my bitcoins
 379 2011-08-18 11:17:21 <Vladimir> or get real loud
 380 2011-08-18 11:17:47 <coderrr> its in all the pools/miners interest to do this right? because regardless of which currency wins theyre already holding all of them right ?
 381 2011-08-18 11:18:17 <gjs278> btc have been in this range for a long time now
 382 2011-08-18 11:18:20 <Vladimir> but miners will swallow the trojan horse of free namexoins
 383 2011-08-18 11:18:38 <zamgo> how easy/difficulty is it going to be to identify bitcoin blocks mined via merged mining?   just look for an enlarged coinbase ?
 384 2011-08-18 11:19:07 <zamgo> that what is seems like on testnet now
 385 2011-08-18 11:21:36 Joric has joined
 386 2011-08-18 11:21:40 <coderrr> Vladimir, yo where is the best technical description of merged mining
 387 2011-08-18 11:22:07 <Vladimir> there are some threads on the forum with links
 388 2011-08-18 11:22:17 <zamgo> http://dot-bit.org/Merged_Mining
 389 2011-08-18 11:22:21 <Vladimir> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29525.0
 390 2011-08-18 11:24:12 DiabloD3 has joined
 391 2011-08-18 11:25:46 <mtve> wtf is http://blockexplorer.com/t/6jSt3dAnar ?
 392 2011-08-18 11:26:33 <hugolp> Vladimir, thinking about it, this could also be a very bad move for namecoins depending on how the miners react. If a lot of miners are not interested in namecoin and decide to start selling them for bitcoins as soon as they get them, namecoin will plummet.
 393 2011-08-18 11:26:59 <DiabloD3> hugolp: so welcome to free market dynamics 101?
 394 2011-08-18 11:27:01 <Vladimir> It is exactly the situation they have now
 395 2011-08-18 11:27:16 <Vladimir> it cannot get worse for them it can get worse for us
 396 2011-08-18 11:27:46 slush has joined
 397 2011-08-18 11:28:01 <coderrr> Vladimir, hrm one thing i see so far is that it needs to sign each proof of work or something, doesnt this add another operation taht could poetnitally slow down miners ?
 398 2011-08-18 11:28:20 <coderrr> or i guess im wrong if miners themselves dnt need to change anything
 399 2011-08-18 11:28:40 <Vladimir> it's insignificant overhead IMO
 400 2011-08-18 11:28:50 <hugolp> Vladimir: no, because right now only the people interested on namecoins are mining namecoins, therefore creating a demand, as small as it is. I have namecoins. I mined some. If this happens, I will probably dumb all the namecoins I get from merged mining, and if a part of the miners do the same it will be a complete collapse for namecoins.
 401 2011-08-18 11:29:29 <hugolp> you will probably wont find anyone buying namecoins.
 402 2011-08-18 11:29:39 <zamgo> complete collapse?  unlikely.   drop in prices, likely
 403 2011-08-18 11:29:45 <hugolp> *that was supposed to be english...
 404 2011-08-18 11:30:01 <Vladimir> the thing is, namecoin get parasitic on bitcoin network, diluting bitcoin and increasing own secuiry
 405 2011-08-18 11:30:01 <zamgo> people are still going to want to do namecoin transactions to update their names
 406 2011-08-18 11:30:49 <Vladimir> do you think shares of an auction company which is allowed to trade on ebay and have access to all ebay resources would plummet?
 407 2011-08-18 11:31:21 <zamgo> I get the parasitic part.   but what is the dilution part?
 408 2011-08-18 11:31:47 <hugolp> zamgo: if a important part of the bitcoin miners (the big majority are not interested in namecoins) dumb the namecoins, supply could completely destroy demand for namecoins. Basically, you could get to the situation where sellers could not find buyers at any price.
 409 2011-08-18 11:32:12 <Vladimir> there was one viable cryptocurrency, now there are zillion of cryptocurrecies with the same security
 410 2011-08-18 11:32:14 <zamgo> ok, let me add in my 0.00000001 orders now
 411 2011-08-18 11:32:14 <hugolp> zamgo: you are creating double the currency. What if a third chain joins in merged mining, and a fourth, and a ...
 412 2011-08-18 11:32:15 <zamgo> ;)
 413 2011-08-18 11:33:11 <zamgo> there is 'double' currency now, with 2 blockchains.  what does merged mining change in that, except that the aux chain will speed up?
 414 2011-08-18 11:33:24 <shadders> My first reaction was BTC dilution as well... But as pointed hugolp pointed out, BTC miners will get bonus NMCs and try to exchange them for BTC.  This *adds* demand for BTC.  namecoins will find fair value because they are exposed to a much larger market.
 415 2011-08-18 11:34:25 <zamgo> buy popcorn futures
 416 2011-08-18 11:34:37 <Joric> does namecoin.org belong to the right ppl currently?
 417 2011-08-18 11:34:55 <shadders> If I got paid for my job 50% AUD and 50% zimbabwe $ (or whatever they are) I'd change them for AUD straight away as as well. That externality is brings Z$ to fair value.  NMC is a largely self-contained economy at the moment.
 418 2011-08-18 11:35:01 <hugolp> zamgo: if the miners keep the namecoins, it will be an incentive for merchants to accept namecoins and it would hurt Bitcoin a lot. If miners enough miners decide to dumb namecoins, it would devastate namecoins. It all depends on how miners react.
 419 2011-08-18 11:35:16 <shadders> hence it's value is not in context of the global market
 420 2011-08-18 11:35:21 <zamgo> ah ok
 421 2011-08-18 11:35:58 <zamgo> so there is no danger of technical damage to the blockchain.  but there is cause for concern for the impact on the curent bitcoin economy
 422 2011-08-18 11:36:14 <hugolp> see, spoken as a true economist. It could go up, down, right or left, it all depends on how people react... :d
 423 2011-08-18 11:36:27 <hugolp> zamgo: exactly
 424 2011-08-18 11:36:38 <shadders> zamgo there's not change to the bitcoin chain at all...
 425 2011-08-18 11:36:39 <Vladimir> My point is that namecoin is just a nice and pretty Tojain Horse which is being towed into Bitcoin castle, once it is in there is nothing stopping all the shitcoins having the same diff as Bitcoin
 426 2011-08-18 11:36:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Znort 987 * re49bfbf2ecd1 cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Add per-device statics log output
 427 2011-08-18 11:36:41 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r3926ad96c815 cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Merge pull request #36 from znort987/per-device-stats
 428 2011-08-18 11:37:12 <zamgo> that is a pretty picture of a trojan horse
 429 2011-08-18 11:37:21 <Vladimir> yes this is purely economical conern
 430 2011-08-18 11:37:24 heinz` has left ()
 431 2011-08-18 11:38:04 <Vladimir> and it seems that there is not technical solution available to address it
 432 2011-08-18 11:38:20 <zamgo> so social solutions are the only aveneue
 433 2011-08-18 11:38:30 <zamgo> s/ne/n/
 434 2011-08-18 11:39:11 <zamgo> find vince, and buy him out
 435 2011-08-18 11:40:53 <shadders> bugger... shitcoin.com and shitcoin.org already registered
 436 2011-08-18 11:41:08 <shadders> was gonna make a fork just for the name
 437 2011-08-18 11:41:13 <coderrr> Vladimir, yea this was one of the ways  i thot btc might fail from the beginning, the infinite inflation via other btc like currencies
 438 2011-08-18 11:41:42 <coderrr> i think we might be under-estimating network effects though
 439 2011-08-18 11:42:09 <Vladimir> it seem that network effect is the only moat left here than
 440 2011-08-18 11:42:21 <coderrr> yea :/ that is kinda scary
 441 2011-08-18 11:42:23 <shadders> it's a higher load on pools.  other than that all changes are in the child forks
 442 2011-08-18 11:42:39 <Graet> shadders make scamcoin for me!!!
 443 2011-08-18 11:43:03 <Vladimir> what high load? who cares? CPU's are cheap as dirt
 444 2011-08-18 11:43:30 <zamgo> driving the namecoin price down, while at same time increasing namecoin chain speed, would be good for namecoin.   The price of registering a name would go down quicker, and be generally cheaper overall.  name registration an updating would become more usable
 445 2011-08-18 11:43:43 <shadders> just saying impact on bitcoin network is limited to *maybe* some of the big pools having to buy and extra server
 446 2011-08-18 11:43:59 <coderrr> and it gives much more power to the banks/payment-processors
 447 2011-08-18 11:44:17 <shadders> how?
 448 2011-08-18 11:44:19 mr_moon has joined
 449 2011-08-18 11:44:20 <coderrr> they can decide to create their own new currency and make their software accept it also
 450 2011-08-18 11:44:46 <coderrr> since they will have a lot of control over the network effect aspect of it
 451 2011-08-18 11:45:13 <shadders> true... then it become a marketing problem
 452 2011-08-18 11:45:59 <shadders> use bitcoin - controlled by nobody or use bankcoin controlled by banks
 453 2011-08-18 11:46:37 <coderrr> except the centralized banks will have better marketing than bitcoin ppl
 454 2011-08-18 11:46:39 <shadders> suspect if that happened it would be hard for banks to win
 455 2011-08-18 11:46:42 <hugolp> shadders:  there are lots of shills in this world.
 456 2011-08-18 11:46:47 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r64e7cdd61bed cgminer/main.c: The new phatk kernel needs a different nonce passed according to how many vectors are in use. This fixes breakage that otherwise occurs when 1 or 4 vectors are chosen.
 457 2011-08-18 11:46:48 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd89a6c57b1e4 cgminer/util.c: Since we check roll time per work item now, it need only be debug log level.
 458 2011-08-18 11:46:50 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r2798b8c54998 cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:ckolivas/cgminer
 459 2011-08-18 11:47:31 <shadders> the key is the pools.. pools would have to disclose which chains they are contributing to... I doubt many of the current crop of miners would support a bank sponsored chain
 460 2011-08-18 11:47:54 <shadders> so it would hurt the pools... or fragment them into the goodies and baddies
 461 2011-08-18 11:48:18 <zamgo> why disclose?
 462 2011-08-18 11:48:33 <zamgo> can't it be figured out via the block data itself?
 463 2011-08-18 11:48:49 <shadders> though actually that's one of the biggest issues... as it stands there's no way for a miner to know if the pool is mining one blockchain or many
 464 2011-08-18 11:48:55 <zamgo> sure there is
 465 2011-08-18 11:49:15 <shadders> how?
 466 2011-08-18 11:49:45 <zamgo> here is a btc-testnet block merged-mined via alpha.masterpool.eu     http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/rawtx/f8f82f09edd769be6db6b32e4ee419401339f6c07fffcdd53e869e2b99314ec4
 467 2011-08-18 11:49:48 <coderrr> chekc the other blockchains
 468 2011-08-18 11:49:49 <zamgo> notice how long the coinbase is
 469 2011-08-18 11:49:57 <zamgo> compared to a 'normal' block with a smallish coinbase
 470 2011-08-18 11:49:59 <shadders> oh yeah... interogate the aux chain for the parent block
 471 2011-08-18 11:50:29 <shadders> yes but can you link that block to a block in the btc chain?
 472 2011-08-18 11:50:42 <Graet> i'm guessing the drive for merged mining came from nmc not btc?
 473 2011-08-18 11:50:47 <zamgo> um.. otherway
 474 2011-08-18 11:50:54 <zamgo> that is merged-mining on bitcoin-tesnet & namecoin-testnet
 475 2011-08-18 11:50:59 <Graet> oh ok
 476 2011-08-18 11:51:02 <zamgo> no one is doing live networks yet
 477 2011-08-18 11:51:08 <Graet> i know
 478 2011-08-18 11:51:11 <Graet> i run a pool
 479 2011-08-18 11:51:27 <Graet> not keen on the merged stuff yet tbh
 480 2011-08-18 11:51:33 <shadders> so you can prove a btc block is parent of an aux block?
 481 2011-08-18 11:52:05 <zamgo> not sure
 482 2011-08-18 11:52:09 <shadders> or you can just prove and aux block is an aux block of the parent chain?
 483 2011-08-18 11:53:03 <shadders> That would be interesting to know.  If you can't prove an aux block is part of a specific parent block any pool could mine all aux blocks and miners would have no way of knowing
 484 2011-08-18 11:53:21 <zamgo> if anyone has namecoin-testnet running, you can check via getblockbycount  on the nmc-testnet block that was mm'd with that btc-testnet block
 485 2011-08-18 11:53:46 <zamgo> probably do match up via coinbase to<>whatever
 486 2011-08-18 11:54:53 <zamgo> so it'd be kinda easy to make a "Merged Mining Watch" system for any parent chain
 487 2011-08-18 11:55:08 <shadders> this is doing my head in... the blocks don't actually match 1 for 1.  If difficulty is different then a solution that doesn't solve for bitcoin can solve for namecoin and generate a new block...
 488 2011-08-18 11:55:23 <zamgo> yup
 489 2011-08-18 11:55:29 <shadders> so there's no matching block in bitcoin to record the coinbase
 490 2011-08-18 11:55:42 <Vladimir> shadders: miners will support whoever pays the most
 491 2011-08-18 11:56:12 <coderrr> Vladimir, and pool operators will do wahtever miners want, right ?
 492 2011-08-18 11:56:15 <zamgo> shadders: exactly.  in those cases only the lower-diff aux chain gets a solution
 493 2011-08-18 11:56:41 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r191 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Support for importing/exporting private keys in sipa format. Resolves issue 48.
 494 2011-08-18 11:57:05 <Vladimir> coderrr: unless they can lie
 495 2011-08-18 11:57:11 <zamgo> oooh nice import/export to bitcoinj
 496 2011-08-18 11:57:24 <coderrr> lie ?
 497 2011-08-18 11:57:29 <shadders> so in that scenario how would you prove that it came from the same pool that bitcoin-block-n came from
 498 2011-08-18 11:57:39 <coderrr> I meant they will support merged mining because that gives miners more than single mining
 499 2011-08-18 11:57:51 <zamgo> there are many ways a pool can lie
 500 2011-08-18 11:58:00 <coderrr> its in each miners inidividual interest to get their btc + extra shit rather than just btc
 501 2011-08-18 11:58:01 DiabloD3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 502 2011-08-18 11:58:06 <coderrr> even if its not in their group interest
 503 2011-08-18 11:58:29 <shadders> I'm thinking in terms of the social defense against citibankcoin feeding off btc chain
 504 2011-08-18 11:58:30 <Vladimir> to tell not truth
 505 2011-08-18 11:59:38 <coderrr> and the first block of citibankcoin will have half of all coins mined already
 506 2011-08-18 11:59:46 <shadders> yes I agree for the most part Vladimir|coderrr... perhaps I'm just being optimistic but I suspect the current crop of miners care enough about bitcoin to sidestep something as obviously malicious as bankcoin
 507 2011-08-18 11:59:49 <coderrr> but citibank.com will support it
 508 2011-08-18 12:00:12 <shadders> they still have get critical mass
 509 2011-08-18 12:00:37 <Vladimir> it is frogboiling process, namecoin first than a few shitcoins, than citicoin, than fedcoin
 510 2011-08-18 12:00:47 <coderrr> yea
 511 2011-08-18 12:00:55 <Vladimir> than newworldordercoin
 512 2011-08-18 12:01:27 <coderrr> Vladimir, is there a comparable example with precious metals?  like a precious metal that shares the same properties with gold/silver but isnt as valuable ?
 513 2011-08-18 12:01:57 <zamgo> Pyrite?
 514 2011-08-18 12:02:03 heinz` has joined
 515 2011-08-18 12:02:16 <Vladimir> there are byproducts of gold mining like manganin or something
 516 2011-08-18 12:02:34 <Vladimir> but I do not think that comparison is valid
 517 2011-08-18 12:02:36 <shadders> argh... stop making me think... I'm supposed to be build a pool...
 518 2011-08-18 12:02:43 <shadders> *building
 519 2011-08-18 12:02:43 <coderrr> yea it needs to share almost all properties
 520 2011-08-18 12:03:46 <Vladimir> the thing is that if you can breach the only moat left, the network effect, you can make a clone of bitcoin with 100mil$ investment into marketing
 521 2011-08-18 12:04:01 <coderrr> yep
 522 2011-08-18 12:04:25 <Vladimir> basically any medium size corporation can do it, previously they would also need to buy some GPU's
 523 2011-08-18 12:05:04 <noagendamarket> looks like another coinspiracy http://coinspiracy.blogspot.com/
 524 2011-08-18 12:07:54 TD has joined
 525 2011-08-18 12:08:18 Jezzz has joined
 526 2011-08-18 12:09:36 <Joric> that site that sells bitcoins using google checkout is it working?
 527 2011-08-18 12:09:47 <Joric> i mean http://www.btcnow.net
 528 2011-08-18 12:09:54 <Joric> how about refunds
 529 2011-08-18 12:10:37 Vladimir has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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 531 2011-08-18 12:11:05 <Graet> Currently BTC are being sold for 18 USD per coin << WTH???
 532 2011-08-18 12:11:32 <Graet> i'm in the wrong game :_
 533 2011-08-18 12:12:39 <noagendamarket> wow
 534 2011-08-18 12:12:47 <noagendamarket> thats some nice margin you got there
 535 2011-08-18 12:12:55 <kreal-> Joric, I know WalletBit is, same deal there.
 536 2011-08-18 12:14:04 <hugolp> Joric:  I asked the same, and I was told that Google checkout has some protection against fraud but its not a gurantee and chargebacks can happen.
 537 2011-08-18 12:14:18 <hugolp> So its only a matter of time before someone finds a way to cheat him.
 538 2011-08-18 12:14:30 <noagendamarket> of course
 539 2011-08-18 12:14:35 <hugolp> Although the margins he is charging give him room to have some loses
 540 2011-08-18 12:14:38 <noagendamarket> bitcoin is a honeypot for scammers
 541 2011-08-18 12:14:41 <hugolp> him/her
 542 2011-08-18 12:15:03 <hugolp> noagendamarket: I would say that careless merchants are a honeypot for scammers
 543 2011-08-18 12:16:42 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * re414490bf791 cgminer/main.c: Don't display rolling status if per device stats is enabled.
 544 2011-08-18 12:18:05 <Graet> noagendamarket thats from the site you linked ;)
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 548 2011-08-18 12:26:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6f769e0f8f05 cgminer/main.c: Add the ability to enable/disable per-device stats on the fly and match logging on/off.
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 561 2011-08-18 12:46:35 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r082e20df5f8f cgminer/ocl.c: Explicitly tell the compiler to retain the program to minimise the chance of the zero sized binary errors.
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 566 2011-08-18 12:55:22 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 6362d063121c r27 /src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (12 files in 8 dirs):
 567 2011-08-18 12:55:22 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - change property name 'useEasiestDifficulty' to 'useRidiculouslyEasyTargetForTesingButDONTIfThisIsARealPool' to make is clear this isn't the same as pushpools 'rewritedifficulty'
 568 2011-08-18 12:55:22 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - support for share counter table updates rather than full submits.
 569 2011-08-18 12:56:43 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4beade3772be cgminer/ocl.c: Retain the program immediately after it's created from source.
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 581 2011-08-18 13:16:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * ra754cc3f0cfe cgminer/main.c: Suppress correct log output when display per-device status.
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 584 2011-08-18 13:17:28 <imsaguy2> lol @ 'useRidiculouslyEasyTargetForTesingButDONTIfThisIsARealPool
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 598 2011-08-18 13:58:28 <MagicalTux> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/9740e7d646f5278603c04706a366716e5e87212c57395e0d24761c0ae784b2c6 <- we got a strange tx in the blockchain
 599 2011-08-18 14:00:11 <cosurgi> MagicalTux: you mean: fee higher than transferred money?
 600 2011-08-18 14:00:28 <MagicalTux> no
 601 2011-08-18 14:00:30 <MagicalTux> I mean output not valid
 602 2011-08-18 14:00:40 <MagicalTux> public key length is >130 hexachars
 603 2011-08-18 14:01:52 <cosurgi> MagicalTux: eligiuss made this block
 604 2011-08-18 14:02:02 <kinlo> so someone tried something, and failed, and the money is lost?
 605 2011-08-18 14:02:04 <cosurgi> (from http://digbtc.com/index.php )
 606 2011-08-18 14:02:27 <cosurgi> luke-jr: do you know anything about that?
 607 2011-08-18 14:02:59 storrgie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 608 2011-08-18 14:03:05 <DOUGHTY> someone speak french there
 609 2011-08-18 14:03:45 * MagicalTux pokes luke-jr 
 610 2011-08-18 14:03:48 <MagicalTux> DOUGHTY: I do
 611 2011-08-18 14:04:09 <kinlo> MagicalTux: according to pident it seems to be relatively normal:
 612 2011-08-18 14:04:10 <kinlo> http://pident.artefact2.com/tx/9740e7d646f5278603c04706a366716e5e87212c57395e0d24761c0ae784b2c6
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 614 2011-08-18 14:04:27 <MagicalTux> no, it's not
 615 2011-08-18 14:04:32 <MagicalTux> the public key is too long on the output
 616 2011-08-18 14:04:49 <MagicalTux> my private blockchain explorer choked on it too
 617 2011-08-18 14:04:57 <kinlo> mmmz
 618 2011-08-18 14:05:04 <kinlo> the public key on the output?
 619 2011-08-18 14:05:12 <MagicalTux> yep
 620 2011-08-18 14:05:18 <kinlo> is there a public key on the output?
 621 2011-08-18 14:05:22 <MagicalTux> there is
 622 2011-08-18 14:05:28 <kinlo> I tought only inputs where given public keys
 623 2011-08-18 14:05:29 <MagicalTux> it's an output by public key, like generation transactions
 624 2011-08-18 14:05:40 <kinlo> ic
 625 2011-08-18 14:05:46 <MagicalTux> nah, generation transactions also send by public key instead of public key hash
 626 2011-08-18 14:06:26 <kinlo> satoshi really had to invent a total programming language eh
 627 2011-08-18 14:06:43 <kinlo> would have been much simpler to reduce the feature set but make it easyer for everybody
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 629 2011-08-18 14:07:44 <batouzo> is there a table (html, CSV, xls, xml, whatever) or difficulty dates?   on what datetimes did diff changed to what value - exact date, to process in script
 630 2011-08-18 14:07:49 <batouzo> *of
 631 2011-08-18 14:08:14 <tcatm> batouzo: blockexplorer.com/q has it
 632 2011-08-18 14:09:07 <someone42> the public key reads: "LUKE-JR IS A PEDOPHILE! Oh, and god isn't real, sucka. Stop polluting the blockchain with your nonsense."
 633 2011-08-18 14:10:09 adulau has joined
 634 2011-08-18 14:10:32 <batouzo> tcatm, oh right. http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash
 635 2011-08-18 14:14:05 <ThomasV> anyone here had success with genjix's libbitcoin ?
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 643 2011-08-18 14:27:48 <UukGoblin> yeah, stop polluting the blockchain with your nonsense financial transactions ;-)
 644 2011-08-18 14:27:54 * UukGoblin hides
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 648 2011-08-18 14:30:40 <noagendamarket> :0
 649 2011-08-18 14:33:36 <phungus> Blockchain pollution. The techno-eco-crisis of the latter half of the 21st century
 650 2011-08-18 14:34:13 <phungus> 500PB blockchain by 2086
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 652 2011-08-18 14:35:09 <phungus> Vanity transactions are the norm
 653 2011-08-18 14:35:14 <UukGoblin> lolol
 654 2011-08-18 14:35:41 <phungus> "He who has most Bitcoin transaction volume is King"
 655 2011-08-18 14:35:51 <infested999> If all 21M coins are mined, everyone will be mining for tx fees. Does the difficulty effect the tx fees? Will people care what the difficulty is once it's tx-fees-only?
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 657 2011-08-18 14:41:39 <mtrlt> ummmh
 658 2011-08-18 14:41:45 <mtrlt> difficulty controls how difficult it is to mine blocks.
 659 2011-08-18 14:42:05 <mtrlt> you can only get transaction fees if you mine a block
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 667 2011-08-18 15:01:30 <imsaguy2> fees will go up if there is a lag in transactions being included in the blocks.  transactions will have to compete for priority.
 668 2011-08-18 15:02:19 <imsaguy2> but they'll be relative to bitcoin prices.. if the value of bitcoin goes up, the transaction fee might actually go down when viewed strictly as a btc decimal
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 698 2011-08-18 15:53:48 <luke-jr> cosurgi: no
 699 2011-08-18 15:56:46 <luke-jr> great, trolls in the block chain now
 700 2011-08-18 15:58:03 <kinlo> luke-jr: ?
 701 2011-08-18 15:58:11 <luke-jr> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/9740e7d646f5278603c04706a366716e5e87212c57395e0d24761c0ae784b2c6
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 703 2011-08-18 15:58:40 <kinlo> the transaction with an invalid public key you mean
 704 2011-08-18 15:58:51 <kinlo> its your pool that generated that block :)
 705 2011-08-18 15:58:53 <gavinandresen> The invalid message is a message to luke-jr.
 706 2011-08-18 15:58:55 <luke-jr> ASCII "pubkey"
 707 2011-08-18 15:59:40 <luke-jr> whoever it is, is a big hypocrite
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 709 2011-08-18 16:01:30 <luke-jr> being the first spammer to abuse Eligius's policy
 710 2011-08-18 16:02:27 <UukGoblin> he paid like 9 cents for it
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 712 2011-08-18 16:03:08 <luke-jr> he could have paid less
 713 2011-08-18 16:03:15 <UukGoblin> yeah
 714 2011-08-18 16:03:17 <gavinandresen> Now that the idea is out there, I bet he won't be the last. And he overpaid; he could've done it for just a TBC or two.
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 716 2011-08-18 16:03:34 <luke-jr> probably 0.1 TBC even
 717 2011-08-18 16:03:37 <RealSolid> whats scriptPubKey in bitcoin do?
 718 2011-08-18 16:03:39 <UukGoblin> TBC?
 719 2011-08-18 16:03:50 <cosurgi> what idea? losing money to unknown address? whats the benefit of doing that?
 720 2011-08-18 16:04:00 <cosurgi> I think it's just someone experimenting
 721 2011-08-18 16:04:07 <luke-jr> maybe I should do some content analysis and reject ASCII-looking crap
 722 2011-08-18 16:04:15 <luke-jr> cosurgi: read it?
 723 2011-08-18 16:04:18 <luke-jr> [10:02:45] <someone42> the public key reads: "LUKE-JR IS A PEDOPHILE! Oh, and god isn't real, sucka. Stop polluting the blockchain with your nonsense."
 724 2011-08-18 16:04:20 <cjdelisle> cosurgi: http://ostermiller.org/calc/encode.html
 725 2011-08-18 16:04:33 <cosurgi> ouch :(
 726 2011-08-18 16:05:06 <RealSolid> luke-jr: are you a pedofile?
 727 2011-08-18 16:05:25 <luke-jr> or maybe I should require people to personally get a key from me to use non-std txns
 728 2011-08-18 16:05:30 <luke-jr> RealSolid: of course not
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 730 2011-08-18 16:06:13 <RealSolid> luke-jr; well considering your behaviour in the last week, you probably know why someone did it
 731 2011-08-18 16:06:18 <cosurgi> I think that plan verification of transactions would do. reject wrong pubkeys, reject wrong anything
 732 2011-08-18 16:06:19 <epscy> i don't see this as a huge problem
 733 2011-08-18 16:06:25 <luke-jr> RealSolid: no idea. what about my "behaviour"?
 734 2011-08-18 16:06:28 <cosurgi> s/plan/plain/
 735 2011-08-18 16:06:40 <cosurgi> or plain verification is too complex?
 736 2011-08-18 16:06:40 <RealSolid> you were talking about destroying chains, etc, trolling type stuff
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 738 2011-08-18 16:06:49 <luke-jr> cosurgi: that's the vanilla "standard transactions" nonsense
 739 2011-08-18 16:06:57 <makomk> If I recall correctly, luke-jr claims to reject the non-public key kind of fake transactions with messages in.
 740 2011-08-18 16:07:09 <UukGoblin> cosurgi, there's no such thing as "wrong pubkeys"
 741 2011-08-18 16:07:11 ThomasV has joined
 742 2011-08-18 16:07:20 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: in this case there is I think
 743 2011-08-18 16:07:21 <cosurgi> UukGoblin: this one was too long.
 744 2011-08-18 16:07:21 <makomk> UukGoblin: actually there is.
 745 2011-08-18 16:07:27 <UukGoblin> heh
 746 2011-08-18 16:07:30 <UukGoblin> what a response
 747 2011-08-18 16:07:31 <gavinandresen> yeah, that one was definitely wrong.
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 749 2011-08-18 16:07:50 <phantomcircuit> also it's only 1 OP_PUSH
 750 2011-08-18 16:07:53 <phantomcircuit> you need at least 2
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 752 2011-08-18 16:07:56 <makomk> Not only do they have to be the right length, they also have to be a point on the correct elliptic curve
 753 2011-08-18 16:07:58 <UukGoblin> agreed, there are some "wrong" pubkeys
 754 2011-08-18 16:08:02 <cosurgi> it's interesting how the attacker managed to get into _this_ block
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 756 2011-08-18 16:08:08 <UukGoblin> but a subset of these wrong ones is indistinguishable from correct ones
 757 2011-08-18 16:08:10 <cosurgi> nobody know who will create the block next
 758 2011-08-18 16:08:14 <luke-jr> cosurgi: only Eligius accepts non-standard
 759 2011-08-18 16:08:33 <UukGoblin> he could've done it with standard-only if he wanted
 760 2011-08-18 16:08:42 <luke-jr> not as easily?
 761 2011-08-18 16:08:42 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, wrong
 762 2011-08-18 16:08:48 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, 100% wrong
 763 2011-08-18 16:08:59 <luke-jr> he couldn't get it past the 21-char I think
 764 2011-08-18 16:09:09 <UukGoblin> he would've created more outputs?
 765 2011-08-18 16:09:21 <luke-jr> I think he wanted to get it into: strings ~/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat -n21 | uniq
 766 2011-08-18 16:09:28 <makomk> Of course, the IsStandard check doesn't check whether it is a valid public key IIRC, just that it's the right length.
 767 2011-08-18 16:09:42 <cjdelisle> Strange transactions have a lot of potential benefit, if there was a group where you could submit hashes and someone assembled them into a mercal tree, that would allow for noterization (timestamping) and only pollute the chain with (at most) one spam transaction per block.
 768 2011-08-18 16:09:51 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, it's 20 chars fyi
 769 2011-08-18 16:10:00 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no, it's way more
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 771 2011-08-18 16:10:11 <makomk> Which means you should be able to get at least 65 contiguous characters into the blockchain just using a standard transaction.
 772 2011-08-18 16:10:19 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the standard transaction is a RIPEMD-160
 773 2011-08-18 16:10:36 <phantomcircuit> or is it SHA256 of a RIPEMD-160
 774 2011-08-18 16:10:38 <luke-jr> …
 775 2011-08-18 16:10:40 <makomk> phantomcircuit: public key transactions also count as standard.
 776 2011-08-18 16:10:42 <phantomcircuit> im actually not sure
 777 2011-08-18 16:10:49 <phantomcircuit> oh right
 778 2011-08-18 16:10:50 <phantomcircuit> rofl
 779 2011-08-18 16:10:54 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, I totally agree with you, also, if the output was 0, that transaction would be easily prunable (unlike burnt coins like this); however you'll find that most of the community will shout at you polluting "their" blockchain
 780 2011-08-18 16:10:55 <phantomcircuit> been awake too long
 781 2011-08-18 16:11:34 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, so they're going another way, using the coinbase tx for this purpose... which requires changing the miner to support whatever your tree contains
 782 2011-08-18 16:11:48 <phantomcircuit> locking 500k rows is annoying as fuck
 783 2011-08-18 16:12:10 <cjdelisle> If we accept that blockchain pollution is going to happen, then we should make an effort to control and minimize it by offering an "easier way" to get things noterized.
 784 2011-08-18 16:12:37 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, I also agree here, some other people will not, however.
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 786 2011-08-18 16:12:55 <someone42> btw, if you run "strings -n 20 blk0001.dat", you'll see there's a lot more pollution
 787 2011-08-18 16:13:40 <cjdelisle> The neat thing about mircal trees is if you use rpimd160 then it can be made indistinguishable from a standard transaction so backward compat is trivial.
 788 2011-08-18 16:13:41 <someone42> there seems to be lots of religious-oriented stuff as well, such as "O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee and I detest all my sins."
 789 2011-08-18 16:13:49 <UukGoblin> yeah the first pollution was by satoshi himself... "EThe Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
 790 2011-08-18 16:13:52 <luke-jr> someone42: that's not pollution though, it's by design
 791 2011-08-18 16:15:07 <phantomcircuit> oh
 792 2011-08-18 16:15:13 <someone42> the "Stop polluting the blockchain with your nonsense" may not have been directed at you, luke-jr
 793 2011-08-18 16:15:15 <phantomcircuit> that explains why someone is mad at luke-jr
 794 2011-08-18 16:15:29 <phantomcircuit> there is a tribute to Eligius/Benedictus Deus. Benedictum Nomen Sanctum eius.
 795 2011-08-18 16:15:30 <UukGoblin> heh, fun
 796 2011-08-18 16:15:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
 797 2011-08-18 16:15:46 <UukGoblin> is there a plan of action in case someone puts CP there? :-P
 798 2011-08-18 16:15:54 <luke-jr> Satoshi set a clear precedent for coinbase content being acceptable
 799 2011-08-18 16:15:54 <cosurgi> omg, what's this crap
 800 2011-08-18 16:16:06 <luke-jr> but making dummy txns is just spam
 801 2011-08-18 16:16:42 <zamgo> do your spamming on namecoin
 802 2011-08-18 16:16:51 <UukGoblin> hm...
 803 2011-08-18 16:16:51 <zamgo> that's what it was made for
 804 2011-08-18 16:16:53 * luke-jr doesn't spam.
 805 2011-08-18 16:16:59 <UukGoblin> are merkle branches regarding your wallet stored somewhere?
 806 2011-08-18 16:17:19 <cosurgi> and all this crap is mined, and un-removable from blockchain?
 807 2011-08-18 16:17:29 <cosurgi> wtf.....
 808 2011-08-18 16:17:30 <mtrlt> cosurgi: yep :)
 809 2011-08-18 16:17:33 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, merkle branches are generated at runtime using the order of the transactions
 810 2011-08-18 16:17:39 <mtrlt> and every node has a copy of it.
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 812 2011-08-18 16:17:59 <luke-jr> cosurgi: technically, the coinbases can all be removed someday
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 814 2011-08-18 16:18:10 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, I'm saying... if the network forgot about contents of an old block, is there a way for coin owner to prove that his coins are actually there?
 815 2011-08-18 16:18:18 <cosurgi> let's wait until somebody will make a distributed blockchainfs
 816 2011-08-18 16:18:29 <UukGoblin> cosurgi, that'd be an expensive fs
 817 2011-08-18 16:18:32 <UukGoblin> and slooow
 818 2011-08-18 16:18:39 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, wallet.dat keeps a copy of everything related to your coins so yes i believe so
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 820 2011-08-18 16:18:42 <luke-jr> it already exists kinda
 821 2011-08-18 16:18:51 <luke-jr> oh wait
 822 2011-08-18 16:18:52 <luke-jr> now I get it
 823 2011-08-18 16:18:54 <cosurgi> but would drive people nuts. Imagine how fun it will be for the creator of this
 824 2011-08-18 16:19:07 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, so the merkle branches are stored in the wallet, apart from addresses?
 825 2011-08-18 16:19:17 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, hmm they might not be actually
 826 2011-08-18 16:19:27 <cjdelisle> distributed blockchain is theoreticly possible but I can't imagine it working and being backward compatable.
 827 2011-08-18 16:19:44 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: he means a FUSE fs that automatically embeds files in the blockchain
 828 2011-08-18 16:19:47 <UukGoblin> cjdelisle, I can
 829 2011-08-18 16:19:50 <luke-jr> (and parses them out)
 830 2011-08-18 16:19:52 <phantomcircuit> but for now at least every single block and every single transaction with at least 1 confirmation the node has ever seen is stored in blk0001.dat
 831 2011-08-18 16:20:12 <UukGoblin> phantomcircuit, ah, true...
 832 2011-08-18 16:20:30 <cosurgi> luke-jr: what does it mean to remove coinbase?
 833 2011-08-18 16:20:38 <cosurgi> uh, what is a coinbase? :)
 834 2011-08-18 16:20:41 <UukGoblin> so paranoid people should keep their blk0001.dat as well as wallet.dat ;-]
 835 2011-08-18 16:20:43 <luke-jr> cosurgi: same as removing any standard transaction
 836 2011-08-18 16:20:55 <luke-jr> cosurgi: coinbase is the generation transaction's "input"
 837 2011-08-18 16:20:59 <UukGoblin> cosurgi, coinbase is the "generation" transaction, the first transaction in a block
 838 2011-08-18 16:21:19 <luke-jr> cosurgi: by design, it contains "random" data-- I've just been setting some of that "random" data to prayers
 839 2011-08-18 16:21:24 <phantomcircuit> UukGoblin, i believe that BlueMatt's block downloads are from a pretty old client
 840 2011-08-18 16:21:30 <phantomcircuit> so they probably include lots of old forks
 841 2011-08-18 16:21:47 <luke-jr> cosurgi: but once all the generated coins are spent, the transaction can be pruned like any other
 842 2011-08-18 16:22:20 <cosurgi> ok. why there are random bytes? Isn't it a waste of spece by design?
 843 2011-08-18 16:22:29 <luke-jr> cosurgi: to uniquely identify the coins
 844 2011-08-18 16:22:45 <luke-jr> the problem is when the spammers abuse transaction info for data
 845 2011-08-18 16:22:47 <cosurgi> ahh. I see
 846 2011-08-18 16:22:54 <luke-jr> those *can't* be purged, because they will never be spent
 847 2011-08-18 16:23:12 <log0s> Satoshi set a clear precedent of using content in the  _genesis block_ coinbase to show that you haven't been mining in secret for an extended period of time before publicly releasing the software...i don't think it implies that it's ok for any coinbase transaction to have random content in it
 848 2011-08-18 16:23:15 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, are you christian?
 849 2011-08-18 16:23:25 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: of course
 850 2011-08-18 16:23:41 <mtrlt> please go to #eligius for theological discussions
 851 2011-08-18 16:23:52 <Graet> mm interesting luke-jr i understand you are strong in your faith but you dont think putting prayers in might alienate some ppl - after all btc is multidenominational
 852 2011-08-18 16:24:15 <luke-jr> Graet: Catholics do not believe in freedom of religion.
 853 2011-08-18 16:24:35 <Graet> and you make your non catholic miners aware of this?
 854 2011-08-18 16:24:46 <cosurgi> I don't think that any faith allows freedom of reglion
 855 2011-08-18 16:24:56 <mtrlt> luke-jr: i'd love to see a religion that did :P
 856 2011-08-18 16:25:00 <mtrlt> yep.
 857 2011-08-18 16:25:24 <luke-jr> Graet: no point wasting coinbases on random data
 858 2011-08-18 16:25:26 <cosurgi> luke-jr: is that random text a fixed size in bytes?
 859 2011-08-18 16:25:39 <luke-jr> tell namecoin to get their merged mining stuff figured out and i'll do that instead ;P
 860 2011-08-18 16:25:49 <luke-jr> that's what I wrote the code for anyway
 861 2011-08-18 16:26:09 <UukGoblin> putting CP there would be fun.
 862 2011-08-18 16:26:14 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: no.
 863 2011-08-18 16:26:16 <UukGoblin> (to watch)
 864 2011-08-18 16:26:23 <UukGoblin> (as in, watch then reactions)
 865 2011-08-18 16:26:24 <UukGoblin> meh.
 866 2011-08-18 16:26:26 <cosurgi> oh. merged mining is putting its bits into _this_ random data?
 867 2011-08-18 16:26:30 <luke-jr> yes
 868 2011-08-18 16:27:04 <cosurgi> UukGoblin: what's CP ?
 869 2011-08-18 16:27:11 <luke-jr> and since their side isn't working yet, no better way to test it … :P
 870 2011-08-18 16:27:19 <luke-jr> cosurgi: child pornography
 871 2011-08-18 16:27:19 <UukGoblin> cosurgi, really nasty shit that can put you in jail
 872 2011-08-18 16:27:47 DontMindMe has joined
 873 2011-08-18 16:27:48 <cosurgi> hm. isn't that pictures? decrypting this would be quite complex
 874 2011-08-18 16:28:01 <UukGoblin> not decrypting, de-obfuscating.
 875 2011-08-18 16:28:10 <UukGoblin> well, unless someone put it there encrypted
 876 2011-08-18 16:28:11 <cosurgi> yes
 877 2011-08-18 16:28:13 <luke-jr> well, you could encrypt it too
 878 2011-08-18 16:28:33 <luke-jr> you could probably do ASCII CP in a transaction :/
 879 2011-08-18 16:28:40 <RealSolid> luke-jr what does pubscriptKey do in the genesis creation
 880 2011-08-18 16:28:47 <luke-jr> RealSolid: English?
 881 2011-08-18 16:28:50 black888 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 882 2011-08-18 16:28:54 <UukGoblin> cosurgi, the law is so fucked up though, that mere possession of this shit can get you jailed, so theoretically every bitcoin user would become arrestable upon downloading the block which contained the shit.
 883 2011-08-18 16:28:55 <RealSolid> scriptPubKey
 884 2011-08-18 16:29:11 <RealSolid> txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey = CScript() << ParseHex("04678afdb0fe5548271967f1a67130b7105cd6a828e03909a67962e0ea1f61deb649f6bc3f4cef38c4f35504e51ec112de5c384df7ba0b8d578a4c702b6bf11d5f") << OP_CHECKSIG;
 885 2011-08-18 16:29:12 <phantomcircuit> RealSolid, it's an extra nonce field
 886 2011-08-18 16:29:20 <luke-jr> RealSolid: it's ignored
 887 2011-08-18 16:29:20 black888 has joined
 888 2011-08-18 16:29:49 <phantomcircuit> RealSolid, the 32bit nonce in the block header isn't enough since gpu miners and pools blow through it faster than they get new transactions
 889 2011-08-18 16:30:00 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: that's nonsense
 890 2011-08-18 16:30:14 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: not a single miner can complete a nonce
 891 2011-08-18 16:30:26 <phantomcircuit> the block header nonce is 32 bits right?
 892 2011-08-18 16:30:29 <luke-jr> yes
 893 2011-08-18 16:30:31 <luke-jr> that's 4 GH/s
 894 2011-08-18 16:30:45 <phantomcircuit> ok so a pooled miner can blow through that easy
 895 2011-08-18 16:30:49 <luke-jr> there's a timestamp header too. so you start from scratch every second.
 896 2011-08-18 16:31:01 <phantomcircuit> yes 4 GH per second
 897 2011-08-18 16:31:07 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no miner does 4 GH/s
 898 2011-08-18 16:31:08 <mtrlt> or do what i do, just increment the time. don't have to touch the nonce :p
 899 2011-08-18 16:31:18 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, mining pools obviously do
 900 2011-08-18 16:31:28 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but mining pools can't split it up (yet)
 901 2011-08-18 16:31:31 <phantomcircuit> if you have > 4 GH/s you need to be able to change something other than the nonce
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 903 2011-08-18 16:32:09 <phantomcircuit> wait seriously nobody has figured out that you can give pool miners a slightly different work load by changing the coinbase ?
 904 2011-08-18 16:32:10 <RealSolid> and thats txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey?
 905 2011-08-18 16:32:14 <phantomcircuit> that would be fast as shit
 906 2011-08-18 16:32:28 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: changing the coinbase isn't that fast
 907 2011-08-18 16:32:41 <luke-jr> bitcoind has to do it
 908 2011-08-18 16:32:42 <luke-jr> and does it
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 910 2011-08-18 16:33:07 <phantomcircuit> bitcoind does almost all block chain operations in O(n)
 911 2011-08-18 16:33:16 <mtrlt> where n is?
 912 2011-08-18 16:33:22 <phantomcircuit> are you serious
 913 2011-08-18 16:33:31 <phantomcircuit> height
 914 2011-08-18 16:33:37 <mtrlt> of what
 915 2011-08-18 16:33:40 <luke-jr> …
 916 2011-08-18 16:33:43 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
 917 2011-08-18 16:33:45 <phantomcircuit> GTFO
 918 2011-08-18 16:33:50 <luke-jr> O(n) would be very slow I think
 919 2011-08-18 16:33:51 <mtrlt> length of block chain?
 920 2011-08-18 16:33:53 <mtrlt> wtf
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 922 2011-08-18 16:33:57 <mtrlt> that's what i assumed
 923 2011-08-18 16:33:59 <RealSolid> phantomcircuit: you can actually go through each nonce and not hit a target for a specified time, if im right
 924 2011-08-18 16:34:02 <mtrlt> made no sense so i asked
 925 2011-08-18 16:34:05 <mtrlt> gtfo if you can't answer
 926 2011-08-18 16:34:09 <phantomcircuit> RealSolid, that is correct
 927 2011-08-18 16:34:18 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, ill find an example
 928 2011-08-18 16:34:26 <RealSolid> so 4GH/s is almost irrelevant, you just keep going through new seconds until it is?
 929 2011-08-18 16:34:30 <mtrlt> phantomcircuit: so you didn't know what you were talking about.
 930 2011-08-18 16:34:34 <RealSolid> but then you have new tx's so
 931 2011-08-18 16:34:36 <luke-jr> RealSolid: that's what /s is
 932 2011-08-18 16:34:46 <phantomcircuit> libbitcoin that genjix is working on can do a lot of the basic block operations orders of magnitude faster than bitcoind
 933 2011-08-18 16:35:18 <RealSolid> luke-jr: no im saying does bitcoin give you times in the future to solve if you're over 4gh/s ?
 934 2011-08-18 16:35:31 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: anyhow, when you have to deliver 1000 getwork results ASAP, things can't be slow
 935 2011-08-18 16:36:07 <luke-jr> RealSolid: it changes the coinbase and rebuilds the merkle tree
 936 2011-08-18 16:36:20 <phantomcircuit> RealSolid, yes except if you're going faster than 4GH/s obviously you'll end up with clock drift, you can just deal with it for a minutes of drift and hope that you get a new tx or you can re calculate the merkle tree and be sure it'll be fine
 937 2011-08-18 16:36:26 <UukGoblin> 4x 5970 is about 2.4GH/s
 938 2011-08-18 16:36:44 <RealSolid> why is it in seconds?
 939 2011-08-18 16:36:45 <UukGoblin> so not far from now with better gfx cards, or using ASIC, you can easily exceed 4GH/s on one miner
 940 2011-08-18 16:36:55 <RealSolid> seems weird, youd think 64bit int for time in milli
 941 2011-08-18 16:37:00 <luke-jr> ….
 942 2011-08-18 16:37:05 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah obviously if you're doing a pool you want to be using a scheme that partitions the work based on time/nonce first
 943 2011-08-18 16:37:09 <luke-jr> no, I'd think 64-bit nonce and forget the time
 944 2011-08-18 16:37:25 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: hence my noncerange extension proposal
 945 2011-08-18 16:37:27 <RealSolid> luke-jr: considering the 32int time is going to be useless in our lifetimes...
 946 2011-08-18 16:38:09 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you can recalculate merkle trees in anticipation of needing new ones though, doing that faster than you need them would be trivial
 947 2011-08-18 16:38:29 <phantomcircuit> really the issue is using bitcoind in any performance critical function
 948 2011-08-18 16:38:39 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: maybe, but I'd lose my super-redundant failover capabilities :P
 949 2011-08-18 16:38:59 <luke-jr> right now, if things break, the pool keeps operating mostly
 950 2011-08-18 16:40:23 <RealSolid> so how do pools with 5000GH handle it
 951 2011-08-18 16:40:43 <luke-jr> RealSolid: multiple bitcoind I think
 952 2011-08-18 16:41:03 <cypherpunk01> I think you mean pool... deepbit
 953 2011-08-18 16:41:04 <RealSolid> no i mean, do they farm out like time+1, time+2,time+3 etc
 954 2011-08-18 16:41:13 ciscoftw_l33t has joined
 955 2011-08-18 16:41:26 <luke-jr> RealSolid: Eligius does, but I'm pretty sure we're unique
 956 2011-08-18 16:41:35 <imsaguy2> 'special'
 957 2011-08-18 16:41:40 <RealSolid> if they dont do that, how would they use all their power?
 958 2011-08-18 16:41:52 <luke-jr> …
 959 2011-08-18 16:42:12 <luke-jr> rebuilding the coinbases
 960 2011-08-18 16:42:24 <RealSolid> and what is that
 961 2011-08-18 16:42:35 hahuang65_ has joined
 962 2011-08-18 16:42:38 <luke-jr> I am not repeating the basics of bitcoin -.-
 963 2011-08-18 16:42:38 storrgie has joined
 964 2011-08-18 16:42:53 <phantomcircuit> RealSolid, it's magic
 965 2011-08-18 16:42:55 <RealSolid> transaction order?
 966 2011-08-18 16:44:07 <phantomcircuit> no no
 967 2011-08-18 16:44:09 <phantomcircuit> *magic*
 968 2011-08-18 16:44:13 <RealSolid> heh
 969 2011-08-18 16:44:24 <RealSolid> doing a google search on "rebuilding the coinbases" ends up with nothing
 970 2011-08-18 16:44:59 <riush> RealSolid, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Generation
 971 2011-08-18 16:46:39 <RealSolid> i see
 972 2011-08-18 16:50:20 <RealSolid> in the genesis block they store the value of a block, why is that
 973 2011-08-18 16:50:20 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, bwahahaha market daemon can handle 10k TPS with 500k open limit orders on the orderbook
 974 2011-08-18 16:50:26 <phantomcircuit> i believe that calls for a beer
 975 2011-08-18 16:50:41 <RealSolid> is it later checked?
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 982 2011-08-18 16:59:49 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: my custom share db can handle 15 TH/s ;)
 983 2011-08-18 16:59:54 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 984 2011-08-18 17:04:09 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, 15 terahas/second
 985 2011-08-18 17:04:17 <luke-jr> yes
 986 2011-08-18 17:04:19 <phantomcircuit> neat
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 988 2011-08-18 17:04:58 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i can handle several thousand trades per second
 989 2011-08-18 17:05:23 <phantomcircuit> so basically i could run the entire bitcoin economy on my laptop
 990 2011-08-18 17:07:31 devon_hillard has joined
 991 2011-08-18 17:12:21 <infested999> So when the client starts and it needs to find blocks, how does it know while IPs it should connect to. For example in torrents there is always a "tracker" who tells you what IP's you need to know to get connected. Does the Bitcoin clent have some kind of "tracker"?
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 994 2011-08-18 17:14:04 <hugolp> infested999: the chatroom
 995 2011-08-18 17:15:03 <infested999> Through IRC?
 996 2011-08-18 17:15:13 <tcatm> infested999: older clients use IRC for bootstrapping (= discovering other nodes), newer versions use DNS sees
 997 2011-08-18 17:15:16 <tcatm> seeds*
 998 2011-08-18 17:15:49 <infested999> Does it use more than one DNS server?
 999 2011-08-18 17:16:13 <infested999> or does it have 10 diffrent places it can bootstrap from, just incase one goes down?
1000 2011-08-18 17:16:42 <infested999> Also, does that make this guy wrong? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37864.msg465717#msg465717
1001 2011-08-18 17:17:02 <tcatm> there currently three bootstrap domains
1002 2011-08-18 17:17:52 <infested999> But can't domain names easily be shut down, like what happened to wikileaks.com?
1003 2011-08-18 17:17:54 c0ldaussie has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1005 2011-08-18 17:18:11 <phantomcircuit> infested999, you mean wikileaks.cc ?
1006 2011-08-18 17:18:26 <phantomcircuit> er
1007 2011-08-18 17:18:27 <phantomcircuit> http://wikileaks.ch/
1008 2011-08-18 17:18:36 <infested999> but before they used the Swiss domain
1009 2011-08-18 17:18:43 <infested999> they used another one that got taken down
1010 2011-08-18 17:19:08 erus` has joined
1011 2011-08-18 17:19:26 <phantomcircuit> infested999, they have a domain for almost every country on earth
1012 2011-08-18 17:19:28 <phantomcircuit> so
1013 2011-08-18 17:19:30 <phantomcircuit> whatever
1014 2011-08-18 17:19:34 <tcatm> infested999: yes they could be shut down and it's far from perfect
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1017 2011-08-18 17:20:09 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, seems unlikely
1018 2011-08-18 17:20:11 <tcatm> infested999: though there's also a list of hardcoded IPs as a last resort
1019 2011-08-18 17:20:19 <phantomcircuit> not to mention there are a bazillion other ways to boot strap
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1021 2011-08-18 17:21:36 <tcatm> personally I think the bigger problem is shutting down bitcoin.org and the github repos
1022 2011-08-18 17:22:29 <MacRohard> that would be a problem for about 10min
1023 2011-08-18 17:22:40 <MacRohard> well.. maybe a couple of days ;)
1024 2011-08-18 17:22:55 <MacRohard> and actually probably more than that 'cause everyone would argue about where it should go
1025 2011-08-18 17:24:47 <MacRohard> bitcoin.org isn't even used for anything now that the forums are gone
1026 2011-08-18 17:24:59 <MacRohard> just a couple of download links
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1030 2011-08-18 17:27:25 <MacRohard> probably the most effective thing for the gov to attack would be mtgox.com
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1051 2011-08-18 17:58:26 <infested999> MacRohard: No you've got it all wrong
1052 2011-08-18 17:58:54 <infested999> If the government attacks BitCoin, everyone will want to have some bitcoins
1053 2011-08-18 17:59:11 <infested999> It's like if drugs were illegal, the price would go wayyy up
1054 2011-08-18 17:59:26 <infested999> if bitcoins were to be illegal, everyone is going to buy bitcoins and nobody will want to sell
1055 2011-08-18 17:59:30 <infested999> the price would skyrocket
1056 2011-08-18 17:59:59 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoin.com/
1057 2011-08-18 18:00:01 <Blitzboom> SERIOUSLY?
1058 2011-08-18 18:00:02 hugolp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1059 2011-08-18 18:00:30 <mtrlt> infested999: if there were not enough places where you could spend bitcoins, instaed of having to convert to $ first, i think that wouldn't happen.
1060 2011-08-18 18:01:20 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1061 2011-08-18 18:01:52 <infested999> Blitzboom: lololol
1062 2011-08-18 18:02:15 <infested999> Their designers must have been hard at work to make that site in less than 24 hours after they bought the domain from the origional owner
1063 2011-08-18 18:02:21 <Blitzboom> this is ridiculous, the domain should belong to the project
1064 2011-08-18 18:02:44 <Ten98> bitcoin.org should belong to the project
1065 2011-08-18 18:02:46 <Ten98> .com = commercial
1066 2011-08-18 18:02:53 <Blitzboom> bitcoin = bitcoin
1067 2011-08-18 18:02:54 <luke-jr> Ten98: what project?
1068 2011-08-18 18:03:04 <Ten98> the bitcoin project
1069 2011-08-18 18:03:12 <Blitzboom> and some ewallet service is not bitcoin
1070 2011-08-18 18:03:16 <luke-jr> Ten98: there is no such entity
1071 2011-08-18 18:03:22 <Ten98> uh
1072 2011-08-18 18:03:24 <Ten98> ok
1073 2011-08-18 18:03:29 <Ten98> except there is
1074 2011-08-18 18:03:32 <Ten98> but you're cool
1075 2011-08-18 18:03:34 <luke-jr> nope
1076 2011-08-18 18:03:37 <Ten98> shh now
1077 2011-08-18 18:04:08 <Ten98> it's like email.com doesn't belong to stanford or MIT or whoever it was that invented email
1078 2011-08-18 18:04:18 <Ten98> ftp.com doesn't belong to the people that invented ftp
1079 2011-08-18 18:04:21 <Ten98> deal with it
1080 2011-08-18 18:04:29 Cablesaurus has joined
1081 2011-08-18 18:04:47 <luke-jr> Satoshi is no more
1082 2011-08-18 18:05:07 <Ten98> irrelevant
1083 2011-08-18 18:05:09 <Ten98> the project lives on
1084 2011-08-18 18:05:35 <luke-jr> there are lots of projects in the community
1085 2011-08-18 18:05:52 <Ten98> indeed
1086 2011-08-18 18:06:06 <phantomcircuit> Blitzboom, tradehill always with the good show of faith... oh wait
1087 2011-08-18 18:06:28 <Ten98> we need an organisation like tradehill
1088 2011-08-18 18:06:41 <Ten98> without commercial support this whole thing is nothing
1089 2011-08-18 18:06:48 <Blitzboom> if mtgox would have acquired it, they probably would have granted it to the project
1090 2011-08-18 18:06:51 <phantomcircuit> Ten98, tradehill is not commercial support
1091 2011-08-18 18:06:58 <Blitzboom> but tradehill makes some bullshit ewallet out of it
1092 2011-08-18 18:06:58 hugolp has joined
1093 2011-08-18 18:07:06 <Ten98> we need ewallet services
1094 2011-08-18 18:07:09 <Blitzboom> after mybitcoin.com this must be a joke
1095 2011-08-18 18:07:12 <Ten98> nope
1096 2011-08-18 18:07:15 <Blitzboom> Ten98: but not at a bitcoin.com domain
1097 2011-08-18 18:07:18 <Ten98> why not
1098 2011-08-18 18:07:21 <Blitzboom> and no, we do not need wallet services
1099 2011-08-18 18:07:22 <Ten98> it makes perfect sense
1100 2011-08-18 18:07:24 <Ten98> yes we do
1101 2011-08-18 18:07:31 <Blitzboom> what we need is for people to be able to actually use bitcoin
1102 2011-08-18 18:07:33 <Ten98> general public can't be trusted with their own wallet.dat
1103 2011-08-18 18:07:36 <Blitzboom> to store their wealth and do transactions
1104 2011-08-18 18:07:43 <Blitzboom> i am convinced it can be done
1105 2011-08-18 18:07:45 <infested999> The whole POS BitCoin idea won't work with the bitcoin network anyway. We need an online e-wallet that EVERYONE uses and that everyone only keeps like ~10 bitcoins in it. There is no way you can wait 10 minutes to be able to buy something in a store.
1106 2011-08-18 18:07:49 <luke-jr> I hope TH uses BCCAPI
1107 2011-08-18 18:07:54 <Ten98> my dad would lose everything on a weekly basis
1108 2011-08-18 18:08:02 <Ten98> he reformats his PC
1109 2011-08-18 18:08:12 <Ten98> get viruses
1110 2011-08-18 18:08:14 <Ten98> reformats
1111 2011-08-18 18:08:16 <Ten98> etc
1112 2011-08-18 18:08:26 <Blitzboom> Ten98: that’s why i’m saying we need to improve the software to accomodate users’ needs
1113 2011-08-18 18:08:30 <Ten98> we need a secure ewallet
1114 2011-08-18 18:08:30 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, they're noobs...
1115 2011-08-18 18:08:35 <Ten98> for noobs
1116 2011-08-18 18:08:38 <Blitzboom> ewallets are against bitcoins’s spirit
1117 2011-08-18 18:08:41 <Ten98> no they aren't
1118 2011-08-18 18:08:43 <Blitzboom> it makes no sense to use bitcoin then
1119 2011-08-18 18:08:47 <Ten98> why not
1120 2011-08-18 18:08:52 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, 10:1 they've already rm -rf'd half their btc
1121 2011-08-18 18:08:55 <Blitzboom> because it gives up the major advantages
1122 2011-08-18 18:08:58 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: a centralized "bitcoin project" is *more* against the spirit of Bitcoin
1123 2011-08-18 18:09:02 <Blitzboom> better use paypal then
1124 2011-08-18 18:09:05 <Ten98> desktops are on the way out
1125 2011-08-18 18:09:12 <Ten98> soon everyone will just have a tablet and a mobile
1126 2011-08-18 18:09:13 <Blitzboom> so what?
1127 2011-08-18 18:09:17 <Ten98> where are they gonna run the bitcoin client?
1128 2011-08-18 18:09:22 koleg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1129 2011-08-18 18:09:23 <Blitzboom> on tablets and mobiles
1130 2011-08-18 18:09:23 <imsaguy2> Ten98, not true
1131 2011-08-18 18:09:24 <luke-jr> Ten98: their plug server at home
1132 2011-08-18 18:09:28 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: that's stupid
1133 2011-08-18 18:09:33 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: no, it’s logical
1134 2011-08-18 18:09:36 <Ten98> soon people won't even have a hard drive
1135 2011-08-18 18:09:38 <imsaguy2> keyboards are needed until voice input can replace it
1136 2011-08-18 18:09:42 <Ten98> everything will be in the cloud
1137 2011-08-18 18:09:43 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: you *can't* run a Bitcoin node on a tablet/phone
1138 2011-08-18 18:09:51 <luke-jr> Ten98: no, cloud sucks
1139 2011-08-18 18:09:55 <Ten98> I know it sucks
1140 2011-08-18 18:09:57 <Ten98> but noobs love it
1141 2011-08-18 18:10:01 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: sure you can
1142 2011-08-18 18:10:04 <Ten98> and noobs outnumber us 1000 to 1
1143 2011-08-18 18:10:08 <imsaguy2> bitcoinj is halfway there
1144 2011-08-18 18:10:09 <Ten98> so get used to it
1145 2011-08-18 18:10:10 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: there are already clients
1146 2011-08-18 18:10:13 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: no, it requires GBs of storage and an active network connection
1147 2011-08-18 18:10:19 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: aka say goodbye to battery life
1148 2011-08-18 18:10:28 <imsaguy2> and there are smaller projects on top of that to handle the rest of it
1149 2011-08-18 18:10:32 <Ten98> so
1150 2011-08-18 18:10:35 <Ten98> you need ewallet
1151 2011-08-18 18:10:35 koleg has joined
1152 2011-08-18 18:10:41 <Ten98> for bitcoin to succeed
1153 2011-08-18 18:10:43 <luke-jr> you need BCCAPI-like
1154 2011-08-18 18:10:43 <Blitzboom> anyway, my main point is: if we don’t actually use bitcoin, why use bitcoin?
1155 2011-08-18 18:10:45 <Ten98> it has to copy everything paypal does
1156 2011-08-18 18:10:51 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: competition.
1157 2011-08-18 18:10:55 <Ten98> you do use it though
1158 2011-08-18 18:10:55 Gekz has joined
1159 2011-08-18 18:10:58 <imsaguy2> or at least a way for multiple ewallet sites to trust/honor one another to resolve transactions quickly
1160 2011-08-18 18:10:59 <Ten98> just not on your own machine
1161 2011-08-18 18:11:01 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: nobody can inflate it, and anyone can open a new 'bank'
1162 2011-08-18 18:11:09 <Ten98> you use it on the ewallet server
1163 2011-08-18 18:11:13 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: and most importantly, you can trade in tonal
1164 2011-08-18 18:11:17 <Ten98> it's exactly the same concept, just with a remote login
1165 2011-08-18 18:11:23 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy, bitcoinj isn't even close dude
1166 2011-08-18 18:11:29 <phantomcircuit> it can only connect to 1 peer
1167 2011-08-18 18:11:34 <phantomcircuit> which makes it useless as a half node
1168 2011-08-18 18:11:36 <Ten98> we can still keep the real client
1169 2011-08-18 18:11:42 <Blitzboom> Ten98: yeah, who cares about actually owning your own money
1170 2011-08-18 18:11:45 <Blitzboom> and no chargebacks
1171 2011-08-18 18:11:48 <Ten98> there will still be a hard core of elites who run bitcoin on their own desktop
1172 2011-08-18 18:11:48 <Blitzboom> those are bugs
1173 2011-08-18 18:11:56 <Ten98> this is just for noobs
1174 2011-08-18 18:11:59 <Ten98> and convenience
1175 2011-08-18 18:12:05 QueryTom3000 has joined
1176 2011-08-18 18:12:08 <imsaguy2> phantomcircuit, my phone wallet connects to more than 1 peer
1177 2011-08-18 18:12:09 <Ten98> actually it's much more secure too
1178 2011-08-18 18:12:17 <Blitzboom> we could make the client convenient
1179 2011-08-18 18:12:21 <Ten98> so I can have my savings on my home PC
1180 2011-08-18 18:12:25 <phantomcircuit> Blitzboom, people should be allowed to be as trusting as they want, so long as they have a clear choice
1181 2011-08-18 18:12:26 <imsaguy2> typically, it connects to 5-6
1182 2011-08-18 18:12:27 <Blitzboom> i’m convinced it can be done in a convenient and secure way for the user
1183 2011-08-18 18:12:28 <Ten98> and have a current account in an ewallet
1184 2011-08-18 18:12:36 <Blitzboom> while retaining all advantages of bitcoin
1185 2011-08-18 18:12:37 <Ten98> I don't need to connect to my home PC to spend
1186 2011-08-18 18:12:44 <Ten98> I can spend from my ewallet
1187 2011-08-18 18:12:57 <Ten98> and only keep 10BTC or so in there so it doesn't matter if it gets hacked
1188 2011-08-18 18:13:03 <Blitzboom> phantomcircuit: yeah well, we saw what became of this with mybitcoin, mtgox etc.
1189 2011-08-18 18:13:17 <Ten98> I don't need to carry around my PGP key with me
1190 2011-08-18 18:13:39 <phantomcircuit> Blitzboom, i still cant for the life of me understand why anybody would trust either of those services
1191 2011-08-18 18:13:46 <Blitzboom> Ten98: you could have your encrypted wallet everywhere online
1192 2011-08-18 18:14:02 <Blitzboom> it CAN work conveniently and securely with the client
1193 2011-08-18 18:14:17 jjjrmy has joined
1194 2011-08-18 18:14:23 <Blitzboom> but no, people rather use ewallets than bitcoin
1195 2011-08-18 18:14:25 <imsaguy2> why would someone trust yours then phantomcircuit?
1196 2011-08-18 18:14:26 <Ten98> of course
1197 2011-08-18 18:14:33 <Ten98> it's so much more convenient
1198 2011-08-18 18:14:39 <Ten98> all I need is a login, the same as paypal
1199 2011-08-18 18:14:43 <Blitzboom> currently yes
1200 2011-08-18 18:14:44 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, it's open source and im not hiding who i am
1201 2011-08-18 18:14:48 <Blitzboom> but in principal no
1202 2011-08-18 18:14:59 <Ten98> in prinipal, in theory, in practise, take your pick
1203 2011-08-18 18:15:02 <phantomcircuit> we've been running britcoin for a while now
1204 2011-08-18 18:15:04 <imsaguy2> there's no guarantee that you are runnign the code thats published
1205 2011-08-18 18:15:09 <Ten98> it *is* more convenient for someone else to deal with it all for me
1206 2011-08-18 18:15:15 <imsaguy2> opensource doesn't mean anything
1207 2011-08-18 18:15:18 <Blitzboom> Ten98: that’s why i say we should focus on the damn client
1208 2011-08-18 18:15:20 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, no but if we steal your bitcoins you can find me
1209 2011-08-18 18:15:24 <Blitzboom> and not on ewallets …
1210 2011-08-18 18:15:26 <phantomcircuit> good luck finding the mybitcoin guy
1211 2011-08-18 18:15:27 <Ten98> the client works just fine
1212 2011-08-18 18:15:32 <Ten98> why fix what isn't broken
1213 2011-08-18 18:15:40 <Blitzboom> no, it does not for normal users
1214 2011-08-18 18:15:45 <imsaguy2> people knowingly write bad checks and can be found, still doesn't stop them
1215 2011-08-18 18:15:46 <Ten98> normal users can use an ewallet
1216 2011-08-18 18:15:46 <Blitzboom> they have to know where wallet.dat is etc.
1217 2011-08-18 18:15:50 <hugolp> is it normal that bitcoind -testnet does not daemonize itself?
1218 2011-08-18 18:15:56 <Blitzboom> Ten98: then bitcoin is useless
1219 2011-08-18 18:16:00 <Ten98> really?
1220 2011-08-18 18:16:05 <Ten98> explain how
1221 2011-08-18 18:16:05 <Blitzboom> yes
1222 2011-08-18 18:16:12 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, it stops them from writing very large bad checks
1223 2011-08-18 18:16:13 <Blitzboom> you give up the property on your money
1224 2011-08-18 18:16:15 <phantomcircuit> for the most part
1225 2011-08-18 18:16:16 <Ten98> no
1226 2011-08-18 18:16:18 <Ten98> normal users do
1227 2011-08-18 18:16:22 <Ten98> I dont
1228 2011-08-18 18:16:26 <Blitzboom> oh, ok, just the elite profits
1229 2011-08-18 18:16:29 <Ten98> sure
1230 2011-08-18 18:16:29 <Blitzboom> congrats
1231 2011-08-18 18:16:42 <Ten98> tradehill profits
1232 2011-08-18 18:16:45 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, but to be clear i would *much* rather people stored their bitcoins securely on their own person
1233 2011-08-18 18:16:47 <Ten98> they seem like pretty cool guys
1234 2011-08-18 18:16:54 <Ten98> I'll go work for them
1235 2011-08-18 18:16:57 <Ten98> where are they based?
1236 2011-08-18 18:16:58 <imsaguy2> I'd concur phantomcircuit
1237 2011-08-18 18:17:05 <imsaguy2> I think there should be a balance of both
1238 2011-08-18 18:17:23 <Blitzboom> no, bitcoin should be 0.1% people actually using it
1239 2011-08-18 18:17:24 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, i just accept that some people are incapable of doing so and have made a very bad judgement that learning how to do so would be to expensive
1240 2011-08-18 18:17:25 <imsaguy2> just like you keep currency on your person as well as at the bank and/or stored at your house
1241 2011-08-18 18:17:28 <Blitzboom> and the rest using paypal clones
1242 2011-08-18 18:17:32 <Blitzboom> great idea
1243 2011-08-18 18:17:39 <Ten98> it is perfect
1244 2011-08-18 18:17:48 <hugolp> Does anyone know if its normal that "bitcoind -testnet" does not daemonize itself?
1245 2011-08-18 18:17:52 <Ten98> the only weak link is we all have to trust the ewallet companies
1246 2011-08-18 18:18:00 <Blitzboom> yeah, no biggie
1247 2011-08-18 18:18:05 <Blitzboom> let’s trust the companies, banks
1248 2011-08-18 18:18:07 <Ten98> meh
1249 2011-08-18 18:18:07 <Blitzboom> governments
1250 2011-08-18 18:18:10 <Ten98> I trust google
1251 2011-08-18 18:18:16 <Ten98> and redhat
1252 2011-08-18 18:18:21 <Ten98> and a few companies
1253 2011-08-18 18:18:22 <Blitzboom> why again do we use bitcoin?
1254 2011-08-18 18:18:25 <Ten98> just be selective
1255 2011-08-18 18:18:30 <imsaguy2> I used to trust google
1256 2011-08-18 18:18:32 <imsaguy2> not anymore
1257 2011-08-18 18:18:34 <phantomcircuit> hugolp, bitcoind despite the d doesn't daemonize by default you have to pass -daemon
1258 2011-08-18 18:18:42 <Blitzboom> i thought it was to make it a larger population possible to have more freedom
1259 2011-08-18 18:18:43 <phantomcircuit> hugolp, which also starts the rpc server
1260 2011-08-18 18:18:48 <Ten98> it is
1261 2011-08-18 18:18:52 <Blitzboom> not to enrichen a small geeky elite
1262 2011-08-18 18:18:53 <Ten98> you don't have to use an ewallet
1263 2011-08-18 18:18:53 <hugolp> phantomcircuit:  thanks
1264 2011-08-18 18:19:04 <Blitzboom> Ten98: yeah, but you want to make it more attractive
1265 2011-08-18 18:19:06 <Ten98> but it makes huge amounts of sense for the masses
1266 2011-08-18 18:19:08 sprash has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1267 2011-08-18 18:19:10 <Blitzboom> and leave the client user-unfriendly
1268 2011-08-18 18:19:14 <Ten98> if the fees are super low
1269 2011-08-18 18:19:28 <Ten98> and they should be, since there's not much overhead
1270 2011-08-18 18:19:46 <Ten98> not like paypal who need expensive banking contracts etc
1271 2011-08-18 18:20:10 <Ten98> it's the banks we want to get away from, not the notion of organisations
1272 2011-08-18 18:20:14 <Blitzboom> i say the approach should be to make the client possible for normal persons
1273 2011-08-18 18:20:16 <Ten98> we need to trust each other
1274 2011-08-18 18:20:21 <Blitzboom> not to make ewallets as attractive as possible
1275 2011-08-18 18:20:23 <Ten98> mate
1276 2011-08-18 18:20:27 <phantomcircuit> oh wow
1277 2011-08-18 18:20:30 <Ten98> people lose their hotmail passwords
1278 2011-08-18 18:20:37 <Ten98> people lose their fucking facebook accounts
1279 2011-08-18 18:20:38 <phantomcircuit> i need more ram and an ssd
1280 2011-08-18 18:20:45 <Ten98> you really think they won't lose their bitcoin password?
1281 2011-08-18 18:20:54 <imsaguy2> phantomcircuit, why do you say that?
1282 2011-08-18 18:20:56 <Blitzboom> i do
1283 2011-08-18 18:20:58 <Blitzboom> because it’s money
1284 2011-08-18 18:21:01 <Ten98> if the general public all used the bitcoin client
1285 2011-08-18 18:21:14 <Ten98> all that would happen is the hackers, scammers and malware providers inherit the earth
1286 2011-08-18 18:21:16 <chinaskibit> Noob question: Is it legal to choose your own nonces?
1287 2011-08-18 18:21:37 larsivi has joined
1288 2011-08-18 18:21:42 <Blitzboom> Ten98: yeah, let’s rather have corporations do that
1289 2011-08-18 18:21:48 <Ten98> all of a sudden a chinese gang that used to sell penis enlargement pills is the richest company in the world
1290 2011-08-18 18:21:52 <Ten98> that's not a world I want to live int
1291 2011-08-18 18:21:54 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, this market matching daemon uses ~1.2 GB of ram when batch processing 700k orders (most of which overlap)
1292 2011-08-18 18:21:55 <copumpkin> chinaskibit: there's no way to prevent you from doing so, but it isn't necessarily safe
1293 2011-08-18 18:22:13 <imsaguy2> optimize!
1294 2011-08-18 18:22:20 <Ten98> there's already wallet stealer trojans in the world
1295 2011-08-18 18:22:20 zamgo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1296 2011-08-18 18:22:22 <ThomasV> Ten98: I sell penis enlargement pills
1297 2011-08-18 18:22:25 <Ten98> and hardly anyone even has a wallet
1298 2011-08-18 18:22:30 <imsaguy2> 'throw more hardware at it' is so 1995
1299 2011-08-18 18:22:40 <copumpkin> ThomasV: oh, you're that asshole who sends me MaxGentleman emails every day
1300 2011-08-18 18:22:50 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy2, that is the optimization, using that much ram cuts down on the disk io but a lot because all the trades are submitted as a single commit
1301 2011-08-18 18:22:53 <Blitzboom> speaking of which
1302 2011-08-18 18:23:03 <ThomasV> copumpkin: send me 1 btc and emails will stop
1303 2011-08-18 18:23:10 <copumpkin> ThomasV: you don't even know my email!
1304 2011-08-18 18:23:18 <Blitzboom> an ewallet company (mtgox) made it possible for many bitcoin users to receive those penis enlargement mails
1305 2011-08-18 18:23:33 <Ten98> mtgox is not an ewallet
1306 2011-08-18 18:23:33 <ThomasV> no I do not know it, but I know you are on the list
1307 2011-08-18 18:23:47 <Ten98> it can be used as one I guess
1308 2011-08-18 18:23:51 <phantomcircuit> Ten98, yes actually i believe that was their primary business until they got hacked
1309 2011-08-18 18:24:04 <Ten98> well
1310 2011-08-18 18:24:14 <Ten98> if gmail got hacked would you say webmail is a bad idea?
1311 2011-08-18 18:24:41 <Ten98> bad security is a bad idea
1312 2011-08-18 18:24:43 <Ten98> not ewallets
1313 2011-08-18 18:24:52 <Blitzboom> no, but i’d say it’s a bad idea to push people away from clients
1314 2011-08-18 18:25:00 <Blitzboom> and encourage e-nonsense
1315 2011-08-18 18:25:15 <phantomcircuit> e-nonsense(TM)
1316 2011-08-18 18:25:17 <Blitzboom> remember how everyone promoted mybitcoin.com to noobs?
1317 2011-08-18 18:25:18 mr_moon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1318 2011-08-18 18:25:21 <Blitzboom> that’s what we got now
1319 2011-08-18 18:25:31 <Ten98> nobody's pushing anyone away from clients
1320 2011-08-18 18:25:42 <Blitzboom> we were doing that
1321 2011-08-18 18:25:44 <Ten98> they've just created an alternative
1322 2011-08-18 18:25:49 <Ten98> if it's better, people will use it
1323 2011-08-18 18:25:55 <Ten98> that's called freedom
1324 2011-08-18 18:25:56 <Blitzboom> we sent everyone to mybitcoin.com instead of showing them how to use bitcoin
1325 2011-08-18 18:26:11 <Blitzboom> no, it’s called stupidity and unresponsible
1326 2011-08-18 18:26:11 mr_moon has joined
1327 2011-08-18 18:26:16 <Ten98> I think you're overestimating your ability to influence what people do
1328 2011-08-18 18:26:22 <Ten98> people didn't use mybitcoin because you told them to
1329 2011-08-18 18:26:26 <Ten98> they used it because it was convenient
1330 2011-08-18 18:26:27 <Blitzboom> they did
1331 2011-08-18 18:26:32 <phantomcircuit> they really did
1332 2011-08-18 18:26:37 <Blitzboom> because bruce etc. promoted it
1333 2011-08-18 18:26:40 <phantomcircuit> people used it because it was on bitcoin.org
1334 2011-08-18 18:26:41 <Blitzboom> for months
1335 2011-08-18 18:26:45 <phantomcircuit> gavin promoted it
1336 2011-08-18 18:26:47 zamgo has joined
1337 2011-08-18 18:27:05 <Ten98> again
1338 2011-08-18 18:27:10 <Blitzboom> it was of course convenient to send them to some website instead of showing them
1339 2011-08-18 18:27:14 <Ten98> just sending someone to a site doesn't mean they start using it
1340 2011-08-18 18:27:15 <Blitzboom> or improving the actual user experience
1341 2011-08-18 18:27:19 <ThomasV> let's burn bruce and gavin!!!
1342 2011-08-18 18:27:32 <Blitzboom> Ten98: you do realize the effects of promotion, yes?
1343 2011-08-18 18:27:37 <Ten98> yes
1344 2011-08-18 18:27:39 <Blitzboom> good
1345 2011-08-18 18:27:43 <phantomcircuit> ThomasV, bruce lost enough already...
1346 2011-08-18 18:27:43 Kolky has joined
1347 2011-08-18 18:27:50 <ThomasV> heh
1348 2011-08-18 18:27:59 <Blitzboom> if everryone said "lolo ewallet have fun losing your money" it would have been different perhaps
1349 2011-08-18 18:28:08 <Ten98> hindsight is a beautiful thing
1350 2011-08-18 18:28:16 <Ten98> it's still a good idea
1351 2011-08-18 18:28:20 <Ten98> the implementation sucked
1352 2011-08-18 18:28:20 <gavinandresen> If it is any consolation, I had 350 bitcoins at mybitcoin and lost half of them.
1353 2011-08-18 18:28:20 <Blitzboom> no, it was actually even predicted by theymos
1354 2011-08-18 18:28:24 <Ten98> but ewallet is the way forward
1355 2011-08-18 18:28:46 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, that explains the questions about vibanko
1356 2011-08-18 18:28:46 <Blitzboom> i’m not blaming anyone for promoting mybitcoin
1357 2011-08-18 18:28:53 <Blitzboom> it was probably sensible to do
1358 2011-08-18 18:29:02 <Blitzboom> i’m blaming everyone who wants to continue on this path
1359 2011-08-18 18:29:15 <Ten98> it's the smart path
1360 2011-08-18 18:29:22 <Blitzboom> it’s the path to non-bitcoinization
1361 2011-08-18 18:29:31 <Ten98> just cos the first aeroplanes crashed doesn't mean they should have stopped trying to make a good one
1362 2011-08-18 18:29:51 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, fyi i asked someone about insurance/bonding and the answer is more or less no
1363 2011-08-18 18:29:57 <Blitzboom> the main selling point of bitcoin is the defeat of trust
1364 2011-08-18 18:30:05 <Ten98> sure
1365 2011-08-18 18:30:12 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: ok we'll not burn you
1366 2011-08-18 18:30:24 <Ten98> a 2 tier system is best
1367 2011-08-18 18:30:29 <Ten98> bitcoin client on your home server
1368 2011-08-18 18:30:34 <Ten98> current account in your ewallet
1369 2011-08-18 18:30:41 <Ten98> people aren't ready for that though
1370 2011-08-18 18:30:54 <Blitzboom> no, the software isn’t ready yet for people :P
1371 2011-08-18 18:31:00 <Ten98> when they're ready, then we can all make a fortune selling standalone ewallet servers that people can install in their home
1372 2011-08-18 18:31:08 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1373 2011-08-18 18:31:09 <Ten98> right now people need exactly paypal
1374 2011-08-18 18:31:15 <Ten98> every feature of paypal replicated
1375 2011-08-18 18:31:25 <Blitzboom> for transaction processing yes
1376 2011-08-18 18:31:28 <Blitzboom> for storing your wealth, no
1377 2011-08-18 18:31:31 <Ten98> yes
1378 2011-08-18 18:31:35 <Ten98> yes yes yes
1379 2011-08-18 18:31:50 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: I was thinking about self-bonding for ClearCoin-- sending X-thousand bitcoins to a 'bonded' address.  Maybe escrowed, with keys held by several trusted-by-community people/organizations....
1380 2011-08-18 18:31:50 <Ten98> most people wont keep more than a few $ of "wealth" at any one time
1381 2011-08-18 18:31:59 <Ten98> most people aren't hoarding coins waiting for the value to go up
1382 2011-08-18 18:32:05 <Ten98> they just want to cash in and cash out
1383 2011-08-18 18:32:07 <infested999> The idea is to keep all your money in your wallet.dat, then keep you pocket-change that you will spend in the next day in you e-wallet. The same way you don't put ALL your money in your pocket when you go out one day, you keep some in your bank account and some in your pocket.
1384 2011-08-18 18:32:19 <ThomasV> hmm, myixcoin.com anyone ?
1385 2011-08-18 18:32:28 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, uh id be more worried about acting as an arbitrator in a state requiring a license accidentally
1386 2011-08-18 18:32:32 <Ten98> infested999 thank you
1387 2011-08-18 18:32:36 <Ten98> that's what I just said 3 times
1388 2011-08-18 18:32:36 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: Hard bit is knowing who to trust, of course.  And figuring out the conditions for the bonded coins to be spent, etc etc....
1389 2011-08-18 18:32:39 <infested999> lol im surprised there are still buy orders for ixcoin xD
1390 2011-08-18 18:32:42 <infested999> whyyy
1391 2011-08-18 18:32:45 <Blitzboom> Ten98: well, that’s what did NOT happen
1392 2011-08-18 18:33:24 <ThomasV> infested999: they're getting cheaper everyday
1393 2011-08-18 18:33:32 <Ten98> the way I use paypal is to receive money for my ebay auctions
1394 2011-08-18 18:33:43 <Ten98> once it gets to $200 I withdraw to my bank
1395 2011-08-18 18:33:49 <Ten98> my bank is the store of my wealth
1396 2011-08-18 18:33:58 <Ten98> this is what the vast majority of people understand money as
1397 2011-08-18 18:34:06 <Ten98> trying to get them to reconfigure their whole world view
1398 2011-08-18 18:34:18 <Ten98> and start storing all their net worth on a PC in their house
1399 2011-08-18 18:34:19 <Blitzboom> yeah, but please let a wallet.dat be the bank
1400 2011-08-18 18:34:21 <Ten98> that's gonna take a while
1401 2011-08-18 18:34:26 <Ten98> a long long while
1402 2011-08-18 18:34:33 <infested999> We need a universal POS system that every store can have. There can only be one system, just like how you can use your credit card all over the world. Right now the problem is every store uses a diffrent e-wallet and it's just like digital cameras before USB came out.
1403 2011-08-18 18:34:40 <Ten98> UNTIL we get to the position where people are prepared to change their view on what a bank is
1404 2011-08-18 18:34:43 <Ten98> then we need ewallets
1405 2011-08-18 18:34:51 <Ten98> ewallets are the stepping stone of legitimacy
1406 2011-08-18 18:34:59 <Blitzboom> we need to not use bitcoin until people want to use bitcoin
1407 2011-08-18 18:35:00 <Blitzboom> ok
1408 2011-08-18 18:35:13 <Ten98> I don't get how using an ewallet is not using bitcoin
1409 2011-08-18 18:35:17 <Ten98> it's just not using one part of it
1410 2011-08-18 18:35:20 <Blitzboom> it simply is not
1411 2011-08-18 18:35:25 <Ten98> it's still using the blockchain
1412 2011-08-18 18:35:35 <Ten98> I can still send coins to a wallet
1413 2011-08-18 18:35:36 <Blitzboom> no, it’s using some website
1414 2011-08-18 18:35:39 <Ten98> what's the big deal?
1415 2011-08-18 18:35:42 <Ten98> yes
1416 2011-08-18 18:35:44 <zamgo> we need more cowbells
1417 2011-08-18 18:35:47 <Ten98> using some website to interact with the blockchain
1418 2011-08-18 18:35:59 <infested999> I am not going to recommend Bitcoins to my non-tech-savy freinds until every store has a POS system anybody can use.
1419 2011-08-18 18:36:08 <Blitzboom> the big deal is you lose the rights to your money
1420 2011-08-18 18:36:08 <Ten98> lol
1421 2011-08-18 18:36:11 <Ten98> will be a bit late there
1422 2011-08-18 18:36:24 <Ten98> they'll already know about it
1423 2011-08-18 18:36:31 <Ten98> well
1424 2011-08-18 18:36:35 <Ten98> I don't have any rights to my money now
1425 2011-08-18 18:36:38 <Ten98> what's the difference
1426 2011-08-18 18:36:43 <ThomasV> hey, even pastebin has a spam detector. http://pastebin.com/mASChSb7
1427 2011-08-18 18:36:56 maikmerten has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1428 2011-08-18 18:37:12 QueryTom3000 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1429 2011-08-18 18:37:37 <Ten98> im just allowing someone else to host my wallet
1430 2011-08-18 18:37:46 <Ten98> someone with (hopefully) more ability to keep it secure for me
1431 2011-08-18 18:38:04 <Blitzboom> which is the problem bitcoin wanted to solve
1432 2011-08-18 18:38:47 <Blitzboom> it’s the only real selling point of bitcoin imo, and it comes at the cost of securing the network
1433 2011-08-18 18:39:34 <Blitzboom> it makes no sense for me to have the costs of decentralization but give up the benefit
1434 2011-08-18 18:39:41 <Ten98> there are plenty of other selling points
1435 2011-08-18 18:39:51 <Ten98> anonimity
1436 2011-08-18 18:39:55 <Ten98> non reversable
1437 2011-08-18 18:40:03 <Blitzboom> both which ewallets make impossible
1438 2011-08-18 18:40:05 <Ten98> based on credit not debt
1439 2011-08-18 18:40:11 <Ten98> virtually no transaction fees
1440 2011-08-18 18:40:22 <Ten98> cannot refuse to deal with anyone
1441 2011-08-18 18:40:29 <Blitzboom> ^ this too
1442 2011-08-18 18:40:54 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1443 2011-08-18 18:42:08 <Ten98> and you keep ignoring the fact that it's not ewallets OR having your own waller
1444 2011-08-18 18:42:15 <Ten98> both can coexist perfectly happily
1445 2011-08-18 18:42:26 <Ten98> and people can migrate from an ewallet as and when they feel confident enough
1446 2011-08-18 18:42:31 <Ten98> it's the perfect solution
1447 2011-08-18 18:42:38 <Blitzboom> not really, 90% in your vision will solely use ewallets
1448 2011-08-18 18:42:49 <Ten98> sure
1449 2011-08-18 18:42:53 <Ten98> but not because they have to
1450 2011-08-18 18:42:57 <Ten98> because they're dumb
1451 2011-08-18 18:43:06 <Blitzboom> lol
1452 2011-08-18 18:43:09 <Ten98> I'd rahter that than 90% of people lose everything
1453 2011-08-18 18:43:18 <Ten98> and bitcoin is instantly villified
1454 2011-08-18 18:43:31 <Ten98> "oh bitcoin, that's that thing that you get a virus and lose all your money"
1455 2011-08-18 18:43:37 <Ten98> not the image we want particularly
1456 2011-08-18 18:44:02 <Blitzboom> if we give up all the points which you listed that the ewallet services nullify, i don’t see a point in using bitcoin
1457 2011-08-18 18:44:11 <Blitzboom> why not have competing paypals with fiat?
1458 2011-08-18 18:44:18 <Ten98> this argument is goinh nowhere
1459 2011-08-18 18:44:29 <Ten98> you just keep saying the same thing over and over
1460 2011-08-18 18:44:44 <Blitzboom> you refuted yourself
1461 2011-08-18 18:44:52 <gavinandresen> Trust-no-one e-wallets will happen, with transactions that have to be signed by a private key that never leaves your device(s) unencrypted and a private key that is stored at the e-wallet provider (and is sent to you as a QR code in the mail, in case the e-wallet-provider ever goes out of business).
1462 2011-08-18 18:45:07 <Ten98> perfect
1463 2011-08-18 18:45:25 <Ten98> there's a whole spectrum of services that can be offered
1464 2011-08-18 18:45:28 <Blitzboom> that would be desirable
1465 2011-08-18 18:45:41 <Ten98> most people can't be trusted with a private key
1466 2011-08-18 18:45:45 <infested999> BTW keep in mind that tradehill isnt mybitcoin.com if tradehill steals everybodys money then they would go out of buisness, the guy who owns it would loose everything. But the mybitcoin.com guy was just in it to steal some money.
1467 2011-08-18 18:45:59 <Ten98> but that's a good middle ground for people who don't want to go the whole hog and trust an ewallet provider
1468 2011-08-18 18:46:13 <Ten98> I think the mybitcoin guy was hacked
1469 2011-08-18 18:46:16 <phantomcircuit> infested999, ah wrong, do you really think the chilean government would give two shits about them stealing bitcoins?
1470 2011-08-18 18:46:17 <Ten98> he didn't steal
1471 2011-08-18 18:46:29 <phantomcircuit> Ten98, im fairly certain he stole
1472 2011-08-18 18:46:39 <Ten98> why would he bother posting that message on the website then
1473 2011-08-18 18:46:41 <phantomcircuit> and realized people were insanely pissed and decided to appease
1474 2011-08-18 18:46:46 <gavinandresen> I'm probably naive and too trusting, but I think mybitcoin wasn't a "long con."  I don't think we'll ever know, though.
1475 2011-08-18 18:46:46 <Ten98> and disclosing how much he had left
1476 2011-08-18 18:47:07 <infested999> phantomcircuit: No he gave the 49% back so that nobody can trace where to bitcoins went
1477 2011-08-18 18:47:12 <Ten98> if it was a cut and run operation he would be in barbados by now
1478 2011-08-18 18:47:17 Gekz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1479 2011-08-18 18:47:20 <phantomcircuit> infested999, that actually makes more sense
1480 2011-08-18 18:47:28 <infested999> phantomcircuit: Because if it goes to 1000 addresses you can trace it on blockexplorer
1481 2011-08-18 18:47:28 <phantomcircuit> Ten98, im sure he is
1482 2011-08-18 18:47:39 <Blitzboom> i agree he probably indeed lost them
1483 2011-08-18 18:47:41 <Ten98> if he wanted to do that he could just donate the 50% to random addresses on bitcointalk
1484 2011-08-18 18:47:50 <Ten98> why go to the hassle of a claim process
1485 2011-08-18 18:48:17 <phantomcircuit> Ten98, because that is transparent and easy to sort known addresses from his addresses
1486 2011-08-18 18:48:39 <Ten98> not really
1487 2011-08-18 18:48:44 <phantomcircuit> either way the site was clearly shit
1488 2011-08-18 18:48:48 <Ten98> well yes
1489 2011-08-18 18:49:24 spq` has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1490 2011-08-18 18:49:34 <Ten98> whoever stole the 50%
1491 2011-08-18 18:49:37 <Ten98> they're stolen now
1492 2011-08-18 18:49:45 <Ten98> and currently being laundered through the markets
1493 2011-08-18 18:50:17 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1494 2011-08-18 18:51:49 <Blitzboom> it would’ve been pretty easy to sell and withdraw the fiat anonymously on mtgox, right?
1495 2011-08-18 18:51:57 <Blitzboom> as they offer liberty reserve
1496 2011-08-18 18:52:42 pumpkin has joined
1497 2011-08-18 18:53:00 <Ten98> I dunno about easy
1498 2011-08-18 18:53:05 <Ten98> possible, certainly
1499 2011-08-18 18:53:25 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin_
1500 2011-08-18 18:53:36 <Blitzboom> i think at least the large volume exchanges should require an identity
1501 2011-08-18 18:53:40 copumpkin has quit (Disconnected by services)
1502 2011-08-18 18:53:44 copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin
1503 2011-08-18 18:53:57 <Ten98> then all you do is keep doing small exchagnes
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1505 2011-08-18 18:54:23 <Blitzboom> yeah, i guess they’d find their way around it
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1507 2011-08-18 18:54:43 <Ten98> it's the price you pay for freedom
1508 2011-08-18 18:54:49 <Ten98> criminals get away with shit
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1515 2011-08-18 19:06:12 <infested999> Ten98: That should be a quote on the forums
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1520 2011-08-18 19:14:45 diki has joined
1521 2011-08-18 19:14:51 <diki> So
1522 2011-08-18 19:15:12 <diki> I have this idea:
1523 2011-08-18 19:15:26 <diki> When launching bitcoin for the first time in GUI mode and in server mode
1524 2011-08-18 19:15:45 <diki> If the bitcoin.conf file isnt created, a window appears prompting to create it with fields to enter basic info
1525 2011-08-18 19:15:50 <diki> like user,pass,port and allowip
1526 2011-08-18 19:16:01 <diki> and a checkbox for noirx
1527 2011-08-18 19:16:04 <diki> noirc
1528 2011-08-18 19:16:53 zeropointo has joined
1529 2011-08-18 19:16:55 <diki> if it is in headless mode, then will be prompted by a simple cin get and std::cout
1530 2011-08-18 19:17:08 <diki> how does it sound?
1531 2011-08-18 19:17:11 ee1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1532 2011-08-18 19:18:20 ee1 has joined
1533 2011-08-18 19:18:24 <diki> And at the help dropdown there will be a restart option
1534 2011-08-18 19:18:29 <diki> so it auto restarts bitcoin
1535 2011-08-18 19:18:37 <diki> no need to close it and double click the binary
1536 2011-08-18 19:18:59 <imsaguy2> write a patch
1537 2011-08-18 19:19:23 gp5st has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1538 2011-08-18 19:22:26 <Eliel> diki: IMO, better to just autocreate the bitcoin.conf if either bitcoin is started with -server or bitcoind is started :P
1539 2011-08-18 19:22:47 <diki> it's going to be empty
1540 2011-08-18 19:22:49 zomtec has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1541 2011-08-18 19:23:02 <diki> this way you can write your user,pass,port(default would be pre-entered)
1542 2011-08-18 19:23:04 <diki> and so on
1543 2011-08-18 19:23:09 <diki> just a small and simple window
1544 2011-08-18 19:23:09 <Eliel> diki: no, rpcpassword is the minimum requirement.
1545 2011-08-18 19:23:20 <diki> read above
1546 2011-08-18 19:23:48 <diki> if bitcoin autocreates the file with some standard rpcpassword
1547 2011-08-18 19:24:12 <diki> what is stopping a bitcoin sniffing program to try the standard password and empty the wallet
1548 2011-08-18 19:24:25 <Eliel> ... what kind of an idiot would make it use standard password? random is easy enough to do.
1549 2011-08-18 19:24:43 <Ten98> if u have a sniffing program on your machine then nothing makes it secure
1550 2011-08-18 19:24:44 <diki> but random means the user needs to open the file
1551 2011-08-18 19:24:50 <Ten98> the sniffing program could just keylog
1552 2011-08-18 19:24:50 <diki> and read it
1553 2011-08-18 19:25:00 <diki> plus it's going to be hard to remember
1554 2011-08-18 19:25:10 <Ten98> adding a password would give users a false sense of security
1555 2011-08-18 19:25:12 <diki> and it's going to be easier on new chains
1556 2011-08-18 19:25:23 <diki> u fire up the client, prompted for a password and user
1557 2011-08-18 19:25:25 <diki> and start mining
1558 2011-08-18 19:25:35 <diki> i lost 10-15 minutes trying to figure out what was wrong
1559 2011-08-18 19:25:44 <diki> and remembered about the stupid .conf file
1560 2011-08-18 19:25:56 <diki> on the i0 chain
1561 2011-08-18 19:27:09 <Eliel> diki: why do they need to remember it? It's easily available from the file.
1562 2011-08-18 19:27:23 <Eliel> plus, every program that needs the pass could just read the file
1563 2011-08-18 19:27:29 koleg has joined
1564 2011-08-18 19:27:42 <diki> you are asking miners to read the conf file?
1565 2011-08-18 19:27:45 <diki> wont happen
1566 2011-08-18 19:27:48 <diki> not today at least
1567 2011-08-18 19:27:58 <diki> when i say miners, i mean the programs
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1571 2011-08-18 19:29:28 <chinaskibit> I can write regex with the best of them
1572 2011-08-18 19:29:34 <chinaskibit> If anyone needs that
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1575 2011-08-18 19:29:59 <cjdelisle> I have a line counter kicking around somewhere
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1577 2011-08-18 19:30:51 <cjdelisle> find ./ -name '*.java' -exec cat {} \; | wc -l | sed 's/^\([^ ]*\) .*$/\1/' | tr '\n' '+' | sed 's/^\(.*\)+$/print \1 ;/' | perl ; echo
1578 2011-08-18 19:32:34 <infested999> What exactly does that do?
1579 2011-08-18 19:33:03 <Eliel> diki: ok, so, what's the purpose of this change you're proposing?
1580 2011-08-18 19:33:13 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1581 2011-08-18 19:33:13 <cjdelisle> finds all java files under the ./ directory tree and gives the sum of the line counts.
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1584 2011-08-18 19:33:53 <infested999> Is there a real use for that? Or do developers use it to brag about how much they work?
1585 2011-08-18 19:34:15 <cjdelisle> mmm not really and yup :)
1586 2011-08-18 19:34:57 <upb> sure theres a use, measuring the size of projwcts
1587 2011-08-18 19:34:58 <Eliel> when I write Haskell, I tend to try to brag about how few lines I needed to implement something :P
1588 2011-08-18 19:35:41 <hugolp> infested999: the less skilled developer is the one that has written more lines
1589 2011-08-18 19:36:24 hugolp has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1590 2011-08-18 19:36:46 <Eliel> what's up with sipa's network stats? they haven't updated in quite a while.
1591 2011-08-18 19:36:46 twobitcoins__ has joined
1592 2011-08-18 19:36:53 <infested999> Hey, IBM used to pay devs by-the-line
1593 2011-08-18 19:37:10 <Eliel> infested999: bad idea(tm) :)
1594 2011-08-18 19:37:37 <cjdelisle> There are limits to the advantages of making somethign short. eventually you become a perl hacker.
1595 2011-08-18 19:37:44 <Eliel> well, unless they had someone whose task it was to look at the code produced and make sure it's not using more lines than necessary :P
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1597 2011-08-18 19:37:55 <chinaskibit> cjdelisle, lol'd
1598 2011-08-18 19:38:13 <Eliel> cjdelisle: of course, I don't go to those extremes :P I like being able to understand my code a few months after writing it :D
1599 2011-08-18 19:38:15 <cjdelisle> I have a bunch of little horrors like that kicking around
1600 2011-08-18 19:39:50 <Eliel> the nice thing with haskell is that often, when you manage to make something shorter, it usually makes more sense too :)
1601 2011-08-18 19:40:43 <cjdelisle> Yup, I'm all for code golf, it makes things better and easier to understand. What I don't like are those perlthon one liners that make no sense to anyone.
1602 2011-08-18 19:40:56 <Ten98> indeed
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1604 2011-08-18 19:41:05 <Ten98> there's a tradeoff between shortness and readability
1605 2011-08-18 19:41:11 <Eliel> no-one likes encrypted code :)
1606 2011-08-18 19:41:21 <Ten98> shortness is mostly an inverted dick-measuring contest
1607 2011-08-18 19:41:34 <Ten98> a 1-line program is generally insignificantly quicker than a 100 line one
1608 2011-08-18 19:41:59 <copumpkin> Ten98: I think short programs can be very readable
1609 2011-08-18 19:42:07 <Ten98> can be
1610 2011-08-18 19:42:08 <copumpkin> but only if they're written for readable shortness rather than just shortness :)
1611 2011-08-18 19:42:09 <cjdelisle> A C program with twice as many lines and 10 times the preprocessor abuse can be 100 times the speed.
1612 2011-08-18 19:42:13 <Ten98> there's a balance
1613 2011-08-18 19:42:32 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, that sir is a horrendous abomination
1614 2011-08-18 19:42:45 * Eliel tries to write readable short code but doesn't often quite succeed. Especially not the first try :)
1615 2011-08-18 19:43:03 <copumpkin> for example
1616 2011-08-18 19:43:08 <Ten98> elegance > shortness
1617 2011-08-18 19:43:13 <copumpkin> map (length &&& head) . group
1618 2011-08-18 19:43:14 <copumpkin> :)
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1621 2011-08-18 19:43:38 <copumpkin> generic run-length encoding!
1622 2011-08-18 19:44:12 <Eliel> nice :)
1623 2011-08-18 19:44:24 <copumpkin> I can fit the encoder and decoder into a tweet
1624 2011-08-18 19:45:30 Tracker- has joined
1625 2011-08-18 19:46:01 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, now do it for verhoeff encoding
1626 2011-08-18 19:46:31 <copumpkin> lol
1627 2011-08-18 19:46:41 <copumpkin> I'd still guess that can be done pretty cleanly :)
1628 2011-08-18 19:46:45 <copumpkin> but not that cleanly
1629 2011-08-18 19:46:46 <cjdelisle> Most of my stuff can trivially be shortened by removing the comments but I'm not sure you would want to do that ;)
1630 2011-08-18 19:46:47 <phantomcircuit> lies
1631 2011-08-18 19:46:55 Tracker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1632 2011-08-18 19:47:56 <chinaskibit> Another noob question: Where is the extraNonce located?
1633 2011-08-18 19:50:30 <chinaskibit> Ahh...Merkle Root
1634 2011-08-18 19:50:30 <chinaskibit> go it
1635 2011-08-18 19:50:33 <chinaskibit> got it*
1636 2011-08-18 19:53:04 <diki> damn that merkle root
1637 2011-08-18 19:53:10 <diki> i have it
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1646 2011-08-18 20:01:19 <snooplsm> is anyone working on any android projects?
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1663 2011-08-18 20:28:54 <jjjrmy> snooplsm: I'm tryuing to
1664 2011-08-18 20:32:12 <infested999> jjjrmy: What are you working on? Wallet? e-Wallet?
1665 2011-08-18 20:32:28 <jjjrmy> I wanna make a MtGox widget
1666 2011-08-18 20:32:53 <infested999> Hmm, does mtgoxlive.com work under phone browsers?
1667 2011-08-18 20:33:00 <jjjrmy> yes
1668 2011-08-18 20:33:13 <jjjrmy> but I want to make a thing that gets your MtGox Balance
1669 2011-08-18 20:33:21 <jjjrmy> as a widget
1670 2011-08-18 20:33:29 <infested999> And the ability to buy, sell?
1671 2011-08-18 20:33:35 <jjjrmy> no
1672 2011-08-18 20:33:40 <jjjrmy> you can just use the MtGox app for that
1673 2011-08-18 20:36:05 Obsi has joined
1674 2011-08-18 20:38:44 <m03sizlak> does mt gox app support stop-loss orders?
1675 2011-08-18 20:38:54 p0s has joined
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1677 2011-08-18 20:39:30 <jjjrmy> what's that?
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1679 2011-08-18 20:44:10 <diki> what he said ^
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1684 2011-08-18 20:48:25 <zamgo> hmm.. is i0coin trying to use the bitcoin hardcoded DNS seeds?
1685 2011-08-18 20:51:03 <zamgo> another thing to add to the 'Forking Etiquette' list
1686 2011-08-18 20:51:21 <zamgo> ixcoin seems nicer, and has DNS seeds disabled
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1690 2011-08-18 20:58:09 <Eliel> zamgo: wouldn't surprise me if it did, i0coin launch was sloppy enough that I lost interest immediately.
1691 2011-08-18 20:59:34 <zamgo> if the dns servers are seeing hits on port 7333.. then yes
1692 2011-08-18 20:59:53 <zamgo> s/servers/seeds/
1693 2011-08-18 21:01:42 snooplsm has joined
1694 2011-08-18 21:04:46 <luke-jr> zamgo: i?coin are scams
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1696 2011-08-18 21:05:41 <zamgo> $popcorn++;
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1727 2011-08-18 21:55:22 <diki> next would be iCoin
1728 2011-08-18 21:55:25 <diki> get it?
1729 2011-08-18 21:55:32 <infested999> ohh gos
1730 2011-08-18 21:55:36 <infested999> *god
1731 2011-08-18 21:55:40 <larsig> :P
1732 2011-08-18 21:56:08 <infested999> Although if the iPhone came with a bitcoin app pre-installed that would be cool I guess
1733 2011-08-18 21:56:39 <larsig> how hard can it be
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1757 2011-08-18 22:30:56 Sedra- is now known as Sedra
1758 2011-08-18 22:33:15 <cypherpunk01> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_aY7HZvFpQ&feature=related
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1763 2011-08-18 22:35:07 <Ilidur1> hello everyone. What's the status of an android software to transfer bitcoins from one account to another (local accounts only, no other device to be involved).
1764 2011-08-18 22:35:14 <Ilidur1> ?
1765 2011-08-18 22:35:43 Superbest has joined
1766 2011-08-18 22:36:09 <Ilidur1> I saw a post about a bounty for this, partially claimed, just wanted to know some details about it.
1767 2011-08-18 22:36:12 <cypherpunk01> u can use those apps to transfer to any address, not necesarily one on a separate machine
1768 2011-08-18 22:36:36 <Ilidur1> I'm interested in android to android ap
1769 2011-08-18 22:36:37 <Ilidur1> app
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1772 2011-08-18 22:38:31 <cypherpunk01> guhh
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1797 2011-08-18 23:06:54 <Vladimir> bitcoin.org.uk daily raffle roll
1798 2011-08-18 23:07:31 <Vladimir> ;;dice 1d81
1799 2011-08-18 23:07:31 <gribble> 59
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