1 2011-08-26 00:00:06 <fabianhjr_> Also, what size should it be per key?
2 2011-08-26 00:00:58 <makomk> Basically unless the wallet.dat assigns a name to the key it doesn't show up in the list of your keys in the UI.
3 2011-08-26 00:01:30 <makomk> Money sent to it should still show up as being sent to you though.
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5 2011-08-26 00:02:52 <fabianhjr_> So, keys are about 160 bits, and 256 priv/pub right?
6 2011-08-26 00:04:02 <makomk> Bitcoin stores a whole bunch of repeated and redundant information with each key, so it's more like several hundred bytes.
7 2011-08-26 00:04:27 <makomk> The raw private key is 256 bits and raw public key is 512...
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15 2011-08-26 00:07:56 <makomk> fabianhjr_: the "no keys as spare addresses" warning is about the fact that you need to be very careful about how you take backup copies of your recovered wallet before making any payments from it.
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17 2011-08-26 00:08:59 <makomk> fabianhjr_: if you make payments without backing up correctly you can lose Bitcoins quite easily.
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32 2011-08-26 00:27:04 <makomk> fabianhjr_: basically, be sure to take backup copies of the version of the recovered wallet.dat that's named wallet.dat and in your .bitcoin folder to multiple locations, after shutting down the client, before making any transactions.
33 2011-08-26 00:27:32 <makomk> Then back it up again (after again shutting down the client) after each set of transactions.
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35 2011-08-26 00:28:50 <makomk> It's kinda hairy especially when running from LiveCD because your .bitcoin folder on LiveCDs is generally in RAM and gets lost when you shutdown.
36 2011-08-26 00:30:01 <makomk> Also, do the same after generating an address to give to someone for them to pay you with.
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85 2011-08-26 00:59:16 <makomk> Anyway, I should go sleep....
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95 2011-08-26 01:44:47 <sharky> Hi there! anybody knows why all of my testnet blocks become orphaned after round about 130 confirmations?
96 2011-08-26 01:45:28 <sharky> meant: somebody. (non native speaker)
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102 2011-08-26 01:55:48 <sharky> could someone pls give me a hint if it is unusual that blocks become orphans after 120+ confirmations or not?
103 2011-08-26 01:58:08 <MagicalTux> sharky: make sure you are properly connected to a lot of peers
104 2011-08-26 01:59:30 <sharky> thanx for the hint. bitcoind is connected to 30-40 peers (testnet). is that sufficient?
105 2011-08-26 02:00:36 <MagicalTux> that should, I guess
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112 2011-08-26 02:06:18 <sharky> hehe. ok. than i hope that i am simply to fearful and the following blocks stay mine. but maybe you can imagine the terror this gives me while validating 'generating', 'scoring' and 'payout' for my pool. oh man. this starts to get funny^^
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124 2011-08-26 02:22:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r3567b69e5eaa cgminer/ (ocl.c phatk110817.cl poclbm110817.cl): Remove fragile source patching for bitalign, vectors et. al and simply pass it with the compiler options.
125 2011-08-26 02:22:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r91a2e7012bda cgminer/util.c: Actually check the value returned for the x-roll-ntime extension to make sure it isn't saying N.
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129 2011-08-26 02:35:56 <sacarlson> sharky: I've seen that happen on testnet, not sure how many blocks of confirms it had when I lost it
130 2011-08-26 02:37:12 <sacarlson> isn't there a command that limits number of connections on bitcoin? I'm now getting 80 that is way more that I need, I want to set max at 8 - 10
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133 2011-08-26 02:38:43 <sharky> afair there is only the possibillity to define peers... by this you can limit it. but that means you'll need a list of reliable peers to keep them configured in a static way
134 2011-08-26 02:39:08 <sharky> sounds uncool somehow.
135 2011-08-26 02:39:42 <sacarlson> sharky: sounds like the easy solution then is just to go -nolisten then
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143 2011-08-26 02:44:33 <forrestv> sacarlson, maxconnections=32
144 2011-08-26 02:44:35 <sacarlson> sharky: seem when I grep max * in the source I did find a config setting -maxconnections that defaults to 125, it's just not in the bitcoind -?
145 2011-08-26 02:44:58 <sacarlson> forrestv: yes I found it thanks
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147 2011-08-26 02:45:29 <forrestv> sacarlson, though consider just leaving it - by running an open node you're helping maintain the health of the p2p network
148 2011-08-26 02:45:37 <forrestv> bandwidth usage should be fairly low
149 2011-08-26 02:46:40 <sacarlson> forrestv: I also run a ISP with this network and I note it taking too much of my resources
150 2011-08-26 02:47:04 <sharky> sacarlson, forrestv: cool, learned one more / but anyway. i'll have a nap. it just killed/orphaned round about 60 of my blocks. good night!
151 2011-08-26 02:48:13 <forrestv> ah, ok
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205 2011-08-26 04:47:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r882961..df1b9a cgminer/ (ChangeLog util.c NEWS configure.ac Makefile.am main.c README): (6 commits)
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215 2011-08-26 05:29:32 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt sorry, did not get a chance to look at the gitian stuff
216 2011-08-26 05:29:32 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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226 2011-08-26 05:47:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 81a854e3f90b r33 /src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (9 files in 4 dirs):
227 2011-08-26 05:47:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - fix: FastEqualsSolution not serializable causing exception dumping workmap during safe restart
228 2011-08-26 05:47:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - fix: nullpointer exception crashing cache cleaner thread leading to eventual OOM error.
229 2011-08-26 05:47:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - added generic try catch to all threads to catch unknown exceptions and prevent
230 2011-08-26 05:47:09 <CIA-101> poolserverj: them stopping. - need to add 'shutdownOnCriticalError' option then these errors
231 2011-08-26 05:47:09 <CIA-101> poolserverj: can be handled by shutting down the server and a wrapper script can restart.
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241 2011-08-26 06:08:13 <cjdelisle> forrestv: I was looking at p2ppool on the wiki, I'm wondering why does it keep shares from before the last bitcoin block?
242 2011-08-26 06:09:51 <cjdelisle> Also what happens if there are 10 transactions in the last share and I mine the next one, evicting a few of them, does my share get rejected? If it does then p2ppool can provide early confirmation for people who are too anxious to wait 10 minutes.
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247 2011-08-26 06:19:31 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: it's PPLNS. block boundaries mean nothing'
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249 2011-08-26 06:20:29 <cjdelisle> hmm
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262 2011-08-26 06:51:46 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
263 2011-08-26 06:51:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 142635 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 500 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1848536.71629746
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281 2011-08-26 07:32:58 <SomeoneWeird> Can someone help me port my bitcoin client off the main network plz?
282 2011-08-26 07:33:09 <SomeoneWeird> And for the 500th time, no, im not making a new currency.
283 2011-08-26 07:33:46 <cjdelisle> use multicoin?
284 2011-08-26 07:34:07 <SomeoneWeird> trying
285 2011-08-26 07:34:26 <SomeoneWeird> i've got a new genesis block but i can't get my client to work with the new code
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290 2011-08-26 07:45:10 <asher^> what are you doing with it SomeoneWeird?
291 2011-08-26 07:45:36 <SomeoneWeird> asher^ trying to get something working but need a different blockchain
292 2011-08-26 07:46:00 <asher^> what are you trying to get working?
293 2011-08-26 07:46:22 <SomeoneWeird> im gunna try and do a poc
294 2011-08-26 07:46:45 <asher^> poc?
295 2011-08-26 07:46:55 <SomeoneWeird> proof of concept
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297 2011-08-26 08:01:20 <sharky> good morning coins and coinesses!
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315 2011-08-26 09:10:44 <Keefe> does the bitcoin network protocol have some sort of multi-message format? for example, multiple addr or inv in a single packet?
316 2011-08-26 09:10:58 <Keefe> i'm trying to understand some stuff i captured with wireshark
317 2011-08-26 09:12:06 num1 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
318 2011-08-26 09:12:11 <Keefe> unless i'm missing something, what i'm seeing with wireshark isn't explained here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
319 2011-08-26 09:15:38 <tcatm> Keefe: IIRC it does support that
320 2011-08-26 09:17:30 <Keefe> besides the source code, do you know of any documentation of that?
321 2011-08-26 09:19:57 <tcatm> ArtForz's half-node has quite readable code
322 2011-08-26 09:20:48 <tcatm> basically, msg_inv takes an array of CInv
323 2011-08-26 09:24:24 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
324 2011-08-26 09:26:31 Joric has joined
325 2011-08-26 09:27:55 <makomk> sharky: someone has been launching attacks on Testnet to orphan blocks after a large number of confirmations, apparently.
326 2011-08-26 09:30:01 <sharky> wow! thank's for that info! hmm. is something known about how they achieve this and what counter measures can be taken?
327 2011-08-26 09:30:51 <sharky> and: may i be of some help?
328 2011-08-26 09:31:00 <makomk> Almost certainly brute force hashing power. Testnet doesn't have enough miners to be secure...
329 2011-08-26 09:31:00 <wumpus> the testnet has very low difficulty, so anyone with a large mining farm can pull it off
330 2011-08-26 09:31:21 <wumpus> has been the case for very long.. the testnet sucks, it's better to use testnet in a box if you want to do reliable testing
331 2011-08-26 09:31:23 <sharky> ah, ok. so just 'normal' betrayal -.-
332 2011-08-26 09:31:44 <makomk> (It's one of the reasons the Bitcoin developers don't want anyone to use it for real transactions.)
333 2011-08-26 09:33:28 <sharky> yeah, i just use it to check whether my payout logic works - and i saw the generated coins on my 'personal purse' bitcoin client before the attack. so it is fine for me (for today)
334 2011-08-26 09:34:20 <sharky> cool. thanks for the info to you all. now the things make a little bit more sense. this saves my day :)
335 2011-08-26 09:40:47 <MobiusL> ;;stats
336 2011-08-26 09:40:47 <gribble> I have 20 registered users with 24 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
337 2011-08-26 09:41:26 <MobiusL> ;;help
338 2011-08-26 09:41:26 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
339 2011-08-26 09:41:39 <MobiusL> ;;commands
340 2011-08-26 09:41:39 <gribble> ?, about, action, add, alert, alias, announce, announce add, announce list, announce remove, any, aol, apply, apropos, asks, at, auth, author, azn, ban add, ban list, ban remove, base, bashorg, bc,24hprc, bc,avgprc, bc,bcm, bc,bitpenny, bc,blocks, bc,btceur, bc,btcgbp, bc,btcguild, bc,btcrub, bc,btcto, bc,calc, bc,calcd, bc,channels, bc,convert, bc,deepbit, bc,diff, bc,diffchange, (9 more messages)
341 2011-08-26 09:41:51 <MobiusL> ;;more
342 2011-08-26 09:41:51 <gribble> bc,eligius, bc,estimate, bc,exchb, bc,fx, bc,gen, bc,gend, bc,help, bc,hextarget, bc,interval, bc,mtgox, bc,mtgoxask, bc,mtgoxbid, bc,mtgoxlast, bc,nethash, bc,nexttarget, bc,ozcoin, bc,p2pool, bc,p2pooldiff, bc,p2poolnmc, bc,price, bc,prob, bc,probd, bc,slushpool, bc,spotestimate, bc,stats, bc,swepool, bc,timetonext, bc,totalbc, bc,tradehill, bc,wiki, bc,xau, bids, binary, blockmonitor, (8 more messages)
343 2011-08-26 09:42:04 <MobiusL> ;;more
344 2011-08-26 09:42:04 <gribble> bold, book, bot, botsnack, boturl, botweb, buy, cache, calc, call, cand, capabilities, capability add, capability list, capability remove, capability set, capability setdefault, capability unset, capitalize, ceq, change, changekey, changename, channel, channeldb, channels, channelstats, cheer, chr, cif, clearq, cmd, coin, collect, color, colorize, command, commands, concat, config, (7 more messages)
345 2011-08-26 09:42:16 <MobiusL> ;;bc,stats
346 2011-08-26 09:42:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 142657 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 478 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 3 hours, 1 minute, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1855756.41721717
347 2011-08-26 09:42:39 <MobiusL> ;;bc,eligius
348 2011-08-26 09:42:39 <UukGoblin> ;;botsnack
349 2011-08-26 09:42:39 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
350 2011-08-26 09:42:40 <gribble> 346288896.518
351 2011-08-26 09:42:56 <UukGoblin> heh
352 2011-08-26 09:42:58 <Keefe> thanks tcatm. one other question. i've been running this wireshark cap for quite a while, 76 min, and saw only one "block" msg. but my client is working on catching up with the last 10k blocks or so. shouldn't i see many "block" msgs on the wire, or is a different msg used for old blocks?
353 2011-08-26 09:44:04 pixglen has quit (Quit: pixglen)
354 2011-08-26 09:48:06 <tcatm> Keefe: I *think* you should see more "block" msgs but I'm not sure.
355 2011-08-26 09:49:51 rafsoaken1 has quit (Quit: rafsoaken1)
356 2011-08-26 09:50:20 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
357 2011-08-26 09:50:21 <gribble> 142657
358 2011-08-26 09:51:00 <BitManiac> ;;bc,prob
359 2011-08-26 09:51:00 <gribble> (bc,prob <an alias, at least 1 argument>) -- Alias for "math calc 1-exp(-$1*1000 * [seconds $*] / (2**32* [bc,diff]))".
360 2011-08-26 09:51:01 <lfm> Keefe: how many connections do you have?
361 2011-08-26 09:51:11 <Keefe> 8
362 2011-08-26 09:51:15 <lfm> k
363 2011-08-26 09:51:27 <Keefe> and yes i am getting blocks, very slowly
364 2011-08-26 09:51:42 <Keefe> i think i've been running for a few hours and have only received 1k
365 2011-08-26 09:52:05 <Keefe> that prompted me to fire up wireshark and try to understand why
366 2011-08-26 09:52:11 <Keefe> i'm using v0.3.23
367 2011-08-26 09:52:18 <lfm> ok ya, the last blocks are slower partly cuz they are bigger bllocks with more transactions in each block
368 2011-08-26 09:52:31 <lfm> Keefe: also 0.3.24 is faster
369 2011-08-26 09:52:41 <Keefe> i've heard that cpu and disk io is the bottleneck, but i'm not seeing that
370 2011-08-26 09:53:02 <lfm> there are some bugs in 0.3.23 that make the download slower
371 2011-08-26 09:53:10 <Keefe> probably less than 2% cpu
372 2011-08-26 09:53:47 <Keefe> mmk, i'll upgrade now
373 2011-08-26 09:53:49 <asher^> i recently built both, .23 took about 3 hours, .24 took about 5 mins
374 2011-08-26 09:53:57 <Keefe> nice
375 2011-08-26 09:54:27 <asher^> and both got the chain via lan, so it wasnt a bandwidth or connection issue
376 2011-08-26 09:54:45 <lfm> ya , by lan should be faster anyway
377 2011-08-26 09:55:52 <Joric> why the price falls? $9.6 already
378 2011-08-26 09:56:16 <lfm> generally cuz someone is selling off a bunch of btc
379 2011-08-26 09:56:50 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
380 2011-08-26 09:56:51 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":10.78,"low":9.1,"avg":9.818821873,"vwap":9.863979056,"vol":59140,"last":9.74,"buy":9.67,"sell":9.74}}
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386 2011-08-26 10:11:30 marf_away has joined
387 2011-08-26 10:11:33 <marf_away> hello
388 2011-08-26 10:11:39 <lfm> hi
389 2011-08-26 10:11:39 <marf_away> 50 minits wthout block...
390 2011-08-26 10:11:50 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
391 2011-08-26 10:11:51 <gribble> 142657
392 2011-08-26 10:12:01 <marf_away> why cant we introduce something like in solidcoin to bitcoin?
393 2011-08-26 10:12:15 <lfm> then it wouldnt be bitcoin
394 2011-08-26 10:12:17 <marf_away> why is it bad?
395 2011-08-26 10:12:36 <marf_away> s it unsave?
396 2011-08-26 10:12:58 <lfm> its math, solidcoin isnt really better
397 2011-08-26 10:13:17 <marf_away> but it feels fater
398 2011-08-26 10:13:19 <marf_away> faster
399 2011-08-26 10:13:30 <lfm> ya feeling arnt math either
400 2011-08-26 10:13:36 ThomasV has joined
401 2011-08-26 10:13:46 <UukGoblin> "constant transaction fees" "so it's easier to predict"?! duude
402 2011-08-26 10:13:47 <marf_away> the normal user dont considers math, he fells
403 2011-08-26 10:13:56 <marf_away> i dont want thaht
404 2011-08-26 10:14:00 <marf_away> i want 3 minit blocks
405 2011-08-26 10:14:08 <marf_away> and upwards max 10%
406 2011-08-26 10:14:13 <UukGoblin> I want 10 minute blocks
407 2011-08-26 10:14:15 <marf_away> and down *0.25
408 2011-08-26 10:14:31 <marf_away> why?
409 2011-08-26 10:14:32 <noagendamarket> just use solidcoin
410 2011-08-26 10:14:36 <lfm> marf_away: go buy solidcoin then but dont come crying to us when you get scammed
411 2011-08-26 10:14:46 <UukGoblin> marf_away, because in the future, I might not be able to cope with latency with 3 minute blocks
412 2011-08-26 10:14:52 <marf_away> no i think bitcoin can be improved
413 2011-08-26 10:15:08 <marf_away> than in future change it again ;D
414 2011-08-26 10:15:12 <lfm> you and 1000s of other people who prefer feelings to math
415 2011-08-26 10:15:30 <marf_away> we are the users, we are the kings
416 2011-08-26 10:15:40 <lfm> so go use solidcoin
417 2011-08-26 10:15:47 <tcatm> a 3 minute block is only about 1/3 as good as a 10 minute block and we already know that a 10 minute block is pretty unreliable
418 2011-08-26 10:16:07 <marf_away> people dont to care it seems
419 2011-08-26 10:16:10 <UukGoblin> "unreliable"?
420 2011-08-26 10:16:24 <wumpus> people care as soon as they get exploited
421 2011-08-26 10:16:29 <Blitzboom> i think the mybitcoin users cared :D
422 2011-08-26 10:16:35 <tcatm> UukGoblin: 1-block forks/splits are common
423 2011-08-26 10:16:37 <lfm> marf_away: its why bitcoin recomends you wait for 6 blocks. wed recomend you wait for 18 blocks on solidcoin
424 2011-08-26 10:16:53 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
425 2011-08-26 10:17:00 <marf_away> ok
426 2011-08-26 10:17:04 <marf_away> no 3 minit blocks
427 2011-08-26 10:17:15 <marf_away> what about a faste difficulty adaption?
428 2011-08-26 10:17:16 <UukGoblin> tcatm, ah, that's because our internets are slow
429 2011-08-26 10:17:20 d1g1t4l has joined
430 2011-08-26 10:17:48 <lfm> partly internets and partly disk drives
431 2011-08-26 10:18:14 <marf_away> 1 houre without block
432 2011-08-26 10:18:22 <tcatm> I'd like to see good double spend detection instead of faster blocks
433 2011-08-26 10:18:22 <marf_away> useability = 0
434 2011-08-26 10:18:46 <lfm> marf_away: thats odd, seems like lots of people use bitcoin.
435 2011-08-26 10:18:47 <UukGoblin> tcatm, is current double spend detection bad?
436 2011-08-26 10:19:01 <tcatm> UukGoblin: IIRC there's none built into the client
437 2011-08-26 10:19:09 <marf_away> more would use it if it were more userfrendly
438 2011-08-26 10:19:29 <lfm> double spend protection is ok, not the same as double spend detection
439 2011-08-26 10:19:47 <marf_away> well devs a said my opinion, iam sure many others think so too, keep it in mind
440 2011-08-26 10:19:48 <UukGoblin> tcatm, I don't understand... the whole idea of the bitcoin client is to prevent double-spending, right?
441 2011-08-26 10:19:58 <lfm> marf_away: we answered you. now, do you have anything new to say?
442 2011-08-26 10:20:16 <UukGoblin> oh, protection vs detection... hm
443 2011-08-26 10:20:20 <marf_away> no
444 2011-08-26 10:20:20 <tcatm> UukGoblin: yes, but it takes time. It would be great if we could detect double spends earlier
445 2011-08-26 10:20:33 <UukGoblin> right, I see
446 2011-08-26 10:20:54 <lfm> UukGoblin: ya like actually spit out that txn has a double spend decteded and this one has been honered
447 2011-08-26 10:21:46 <UukGoblin> I'd like to have an easier option of intentional double-spend fee-increase txn
448 2011-08-26 10:22:05 <lfm> UukGoblin: like a txn override?
449 2011-08-26 10:22:09 <UukGoblin> yeah
450 2011-08-26 10:22:11 <tcatm> I wonder if the (dead) subscription/channel code in net.cpp could be used to broadcast information about double spends
451 2011-08-26 10:22:33 piuk has quit (Quit: Page closed)
452 2011-08-26 10:22:56 <lfm> tcatm: I have a post mortem pgm that looks for evidence of double spend attempts in the block chain records
453 2011-08-26 10:23:16 <tcatm> lfm: interesting
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455 2011-08-26 10:23:29 <lfm> tcatm: its not really tested yet cuz I cant find any examples
456 2011-08-26 10:23:51 <tcatm> how does it detect them?
457 2011-08-26 10:24:08 <tcatm> there were some double spend attempts but only one transaction made it into the chain
458 2011-08-26 10:24:24 <lfm> it would only see one if both txn got into different forks of the block chain.
459 2011-08-26 10:24:44 <lfm> tcatm ya I prolly ownt see most
460 2011-08-26 10:24:50 <lfm> wont
461 2011-08-26 10:25:54 <lfm> there might be evidence in the debug.log too , im not sure
462 2011-08-26 10:28:13 <lfm> perhaps we could make a system to produce a whole bunch of double spend attempts to see what tools will detect them
463 2011-08-26 10:28:36 <tcatm> we could do that on testnet
464 2011-08-26 10:30:30 <lfm> make a whole bunch of wallets with 0.01 in each and duplicate them then syncronously try to spend them from two places
465 2011-08-26 10:31:04 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
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470 2011-08-26 10:51:03 zamgo has joined
471 2011-08-26 10:51:08 <kfj98w2398492834> is this a logged channel?
472 2011-08-26 10:51:31 Dyaheon has joined
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474 2011-08-26 10:52:37 <SomeoneWeird> yes
475 2011-08-26 10:56:38 <UukGoblin> I log all channels I'm on...
476 2011-08-26 10:56:53 <lfm> kfj98w2398492834: why you ask?
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512 2011-08-26 11:52:28 SomeoneWeird has joined
513 2011-08-26 11:52:44 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone around that can run me through on how to compile the client on win?
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523 2011-08-26 12:20:56 <baz_> anyone here implemented mtgox api client in Java? I find the authentication quite confusing, haven't done this kind of signing in java before
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550 2011-08-26 12:50:42 <Cory> doublec your exchange's down. :(
551 2011-08-26 12:51:28 voot545 has quit ()
552 2011-08-26 12:52:26 <doublec> Cory: which exchange
553 2011-08-26 12:52:51 <Cory> Looks like it's working now, but people were complaining about the SC exchange.
554 2011-08-26 12:53:02 <doublec> looks up to me
555 2011-08-26 12:53:09 <SomeoneWeird> lol
556 2011-08-26 12:53:16 <Cory> Yup, about 10 minutes ago I guess it was down. :P
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561 2011-08-26 13:05:22 <Cory> I bet you're aware of the order book, doublec.
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604 2011-08-26 13:48:14 <b4epoche> is there a conversion (I know it would be very rough) flops to hash/s?
605 2011-08-26 13:48:55 <b4epoche> I'm just trying to get a rough estimate of how many hashes/s a supercomputer might be able to perform
606 2011-08-26 13:49:14 <Zoiah> b4epoche: no.
607 2011-08-26 13:49:28 <kjj> you can find various figures around, but they are all meaningless
608 2011-08-26 13:49:29 <Zoiah> b4epoche: this is dependant on the instructionset.
609 2011-08-26 13:49:38 <SomeoneWeird> b4epoche, the answer is not very many
610 2011-08-26 13:49:54 <kjj> the problem is that hashing isn't done in floating point
611 2011-08-26 13:49:58 <b4epoche> I know it's going to be very rough and processor dependent, etc...
612 2011-08-26 13:50:04 <b4epoche> kjj: I know
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614 2011-08-26 13:50:23 <b4epoche> this is not something that needs to be very accurate
615 2011-08-26 13:50:33 <kjj> what people usually do is look at the hashing rate of a CPU, and then look at how many FLOPS it could do if it was doing them
616 2011-08-26 13:51:10 <kjj> but that is nonsense from start to finish, and it gets worse when you compare something like the global hash rate to the ratio for some particular CPU
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618 2011-08-26 13:51:48 <Zoiah> b4epoche: the difference can massive. Just look at the performance between ATi and NVIDIA even though the FLOPS is not too differing.
619 2011-08-26 13:52:22 <b4epoche> hmm⦠maybe instead of making a comparison to supercomputers I can make comparisons to number of GPUs
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621 2011-08-26 13:52:42 <SomeoneWeird> would be better/easier
622 2011-08-26 13:52:53 <b4epoche> I'm just trying to demonstrate how hard it would be overrun block chain
623 2011-08-26 13:53:04 <SomeoneWeird> hard
624 2011-08-26 13:53:20 <b4epoche> yes, that's pretty obvious
625 2011-08-26 13:53:48 <Zoiah> b4epoche: Radeon 6970, theorectical GFLOPS: 2703. Hashing: 375. ~7GFLOP per Mhash
626 2011-08-26 13:53:52 Baksch has quit (Quit: Leaving)
627 2011-08-26 13:54:46 <Zoiah> b4epoche: GTX 580, theoretical GFLOPS: 1581. Hashing: 140. ~11GLOP per Mhash.
628 2011-08-26 13:55:30 p0s has joined
629 2011-08-26 13:55:39 <Zoiah> b4epoche: Core i7 2600k. GFLOPS: 108. Hashing: 4. ~27GFLOP per Mhash.
630 2011-08-26 13:55:52 <b4epoche> I was trying to get a very rough estimate of the hash rate of a 8 TFLOPS supercomputer (current fastest)
631 2011-08-26 13:56:24 <b4epoche> oops 8 PetaFLOPS
632 2011-08-26 13:56:27 <Zoiah> Yeah.
633 2011-08-26 13:56:29 <Zoiah> I figured. ;)
634 2011-08-26 13:57:07 <kjj> it still doesn't make sense. CPUs aren't atomic things, they have parts
635 2011-08-26 13:57:09 <Zoiah> If it's as efficient as the Core i7, 8000000 / 27 = 296296Mhash/s
636 2011-08-26 13:58:18 <b4epoche> kjj: I know it doesn't make sense but it should be an order of magnitude estimate
637 2011-08-26 13:58:20 <kjj> the integer unit and the floating point unit are totally different things. this is obscured by the fact that they aren't sold as distinct packages
638 2011-08-26 13:58:39 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
639 2011-08-26 13:58:41 <Zoiah> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
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642 2011-08-26 13:59:01 <b4epoche> 68544 SPARC64 VIIIfx CPUs
643 2011-08-26 13:59:26 <Zoiah> Network is currently doing 150Thash/s.
644 2011-08-26 13:59:34 <kjj> 15, not 150
645 2011-08-26 13:59:43 <Zoiah> Right, sorry, 15Thash/s
646 2011-08-26 14:00:06 <Zoiah> The supercomputer would be doing 0.296Thash/s
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649 2011-08-26 14:00:24 <b4epoche> yep...
650 2011-08-26 14:00:36 <kjj> if you want this to be meaningful at all, you need to look at the CPUs, and find the performance of their integer units
651 2011-08-26 14:00:43 <Zoiah> But the assumptions could be way off.
652 2011-08-26 14:01:19 <b4epoche> ^^ is the cpu the in that supercomputer
653 2011-08-26 14:01:41 <Zoiah> Doesn't seem to be any performance figures for mining on Sparc.
654 2011-08-26 14:01:49 <b4epoche> okay⦠gotta go teach class. ttyl.
655 2011-08-26 14:01:51 <Zoiah> Ttyl.
656 2011-08-26 14:02:06 <Rozz> hmmz
657 2011-08-26 14:02:11 <b4epoche> yea, I was surprised. Didn't know anyone was still using that architecture
658 2011-08-26 14:02:17 <Zoiah> sun fire v120 (sun4u), sparcv9 650 MHz - 109.6 Khash/s
659 2011-08-26 14:02:18 <Zoiah> sun netra t2000 (sun4v), sparcv9 1.2 GHz - 117.4 Khash/s (strange)
660 2011-08-26 14:03:20 vigilyn2 has joined
661 2011-08-26 14:03:29 <Zoiah> Sparc architecture seems to be horrible for hashing.
662 2011-08-26 14:04:03 Katapult has joined
663 2011-08-26 14:04:05 <kjj> the CPUs picked for HPC are usually picked for their floating point performance.
664 2011-08-26 14:04:22 <Zoiah> Let's assume it scales linearly with MHz with the best case Sparc.
665 2011-08-26 14:04:44 zeta-51b` has joined
666 2011-08-26 14:04:44 <Zoiah> So that's be 327Khash per Sparc core.
667 2011-08-26 14:05:07 <Zoiah> 68544 SPARC CPUs, 548352 SPARC core.
668 2011-08-26 14:05:18 <Zoiah> 179311104 Khash/sec
669 2011-08-26 14:05:22 <Zoiah> 179311 Mhash/sec
670 2011-08-26 14:05:26 <Zoiah> 179 Ghash/sec
671 2011-08-26 14:05:32 <kjj> as far as I know, the last superscalar integer development outside of ATI was Intel's MMX. after that, it has all been floating point.
672 2011-08-26 14:05:55 bobke_ has joined
673 2011-08-26 14:05:56 <Zoiah> That's actually not too far off based on the FLOP/Hash ratio.
674 2011-08-26 14:06:06 <Zoiah> 179 Ghash/s vs. 296Ghash/s.
675 2011-08-26 14:06:13 Kissat has joined
676 2011-08-26 14:06:40 <Zoiah> Either way, wouldn't dent the mining graph.
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766 2011-08-26 14:52:50 <SomeoneWeird> Anyone around that can run me through on how to compile the client on win?
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771 2011-08-26 15:00:02 <abragin> SomeoneWeird - with GUI, or commandline version?
772 2011-08-26 15:00:12 <SomeoneWeird> gui
773 2011-08-26 15:00:27 <abragin> a bit harder due to QT (iirc)
774 2011-08-26 15:00:31 <abragin> I compiled only cui
775 2011-08-26 15:00:49 Burgundy has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
776 2011-08-26 15:00:49 <abragin> and it was rather straightforward, you just need to get/build all dependances
777 2011-08-26 15:00:50 <SomeoneWeird> well, daemon would suffice for now but in the longrun i'd like gui compiled aswell
778 2011-08-26 15:01:01 <SomeoneWeird> heh
779 2011-08-26 15:01:11 <SomeoneWeird> did you follow a tut or something?
780 2011-08-26 15:01:35 <abragin> nope, alas there were no tutorial, so just try-and-error
781 2011-08-26 15:01:36 nemesis51 is now known as away!~nemesis@178-25-127-144-dynip.superkabel.de|nemesis51
782 2011-08-26 15:01:43 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
783 2011-08-26 15:01:45 <SomeoneWeird> ok
784 2011-08-26 15:02:09 Clipse has joined
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786 2011-08-26 15:02:32 <abragin> well, I created a vc project for that
787 2011-08-26 15:02:41 <abragin> visual studio I mean
788 2011-08-26 15:03:53 <abragin> additional lib dirs: D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\filesystem\build\msvc-10.0\debug\link-static\threading-multi;D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\system\build\msvc-10.0\debug\link-static\threading-multi;D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\thread\build\msvc-10.0\debug\link-static\threading-multi\;D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\date_time\build\msvc-10.0\deb
789 2011-08-26 15:03:53 <abragin> ug\link-static\threading-multi;D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\program_options\build\msvc-10.0\debug\link-static\threading-multi;D:\BitCoin\Libs\boost_1_43_0\bin.v2\libs\regex\build\msvc-10.0\debug\link-static\threading-multi;D:\BitCoin\Libs\openssl-1.0.0d\out32;D:\BitCoin\Libs\db-4.7.25\build_windows\Debug;
790 2011-08-26 15:04:20 <abragin> you may see what libs are used from that
791 2011-08-26 15:05:52 <SomeoneWeird> hrm ok thanks
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821 2011-08-26 15:45:15 <forrestv> cjdelisle, no, the share won't be rejected. included transactions aren't checked against anything
822 2011-08-26 15:45:31 <cjdelisle> thanks
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831 2011-08-26 16:02:20 <skraps> help get SSL options for everyone for free on pastebin like this page on face book http://pastebin.com/f4e0diQP
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833 2011-08-26 16:04:26 skraps has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
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835 2011-08-26 16:05:34 <UukGoblin> does someone keep historical trade data of all exchanges (like the real-time one provided by bitcoincharts)?
836 2011-08-26 16:06:34 <tcatm> bitcoincharts does
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940 2011-08-26 18:54:58 <UukGoblin> heh, "create your own altchain" option in bitcoin would be nice
941 2011-08-26 18:55:34 <UukGoblin> you just enter some values in a special config file, like the coin-per-block, avg-time-to-find-block, etc - and bam! you've got your own altchain
942 2011-08-26 18:55:57 <UukGoblin> it'd perhaps show people how silly ixcoin and the like are
943 2011-08-26 18:57:04 kish is now known as BUY
944 2011-08-26 18:57:11 Raccoon is now known as SELL
945 2011-08-26 18:57:31 urs has joined
946 2011-08-26 18:57:41 ThomasV is now known as SELLMORE
947 2011-08-26 18:58:43 SELLMORE is now known as ThomasV
948 2011-08-26 18:58:47 BUY is now known as kish
949 2011-08-26 18:59:03 SELL is now known as SELL_SELL_SELL
950 2011-08-26 18:59:32 SELL_SELL_SELL is now known as Raccoon
951 2011-08-26 19:02:00 sshc has joined
952 2011-08-26 19:04:39 <UukGoblin> 195650 <+amphipod> Aug26 18:57:48 b7 1.6200 @ 8.60 USD
953 2011-08-26 19:04:58 <UukGoblin> heh, looks like b7's clock (or something) is about a minute in the future
954 2011-08-26 19:05:06 Diablo-D3 has joined
955 2011-08-26 19:05:12 <UukGoblin> more
956 2011-08-26 19:05:48 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
957 2011-08-26 19:08:09 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
958 2011-08-26 19:10:56 btcserve has joined
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960 2011-08-26 19:11:26 <iocor> is it the case that you can reverse a wallet public key from an address?
961 2011-08-26 19:11:59 <tcatm> iocor: not without breaking the hashing function
962 2011-08-26 19:12:12 <btcserve> what is the best service (easy to configure and secure) to host bitcoind along with a python json-rpc app?
963 2011-08-26 19:12:35 <tcatm> btcserve: IIRC there is none yet. maybe you should start one?
964 2011-08-26 19:12:54 <btcserve> drat
965 2011-08-26 19:13:27 <zamgo> also add to your list: 'best secure service'
966 2011-08-26 19:13:33 <zamgo> also, none yet
967 2011-08-26 19:13:37 <btcserve> is there a hardened vm image i could use with a cloud service?
968 2011-08-26 19:14:58 <tcatm> setting up that vm is easy. coming up with a good backup plan is not that easy
969 2011-08-26 19:16:01 <zamgo> and that's why poland has 1 less exchange
970 2011-08-26 19:17:38 zamgo has quit (Disconnected by services)
971 2011-08-26 19:17:51 <btcserve> backup plan in case it gets hacked?
972 2011-08-26 19:18:10 zamgo has joined
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980 2011-08-26 19:37:25 Cokein has joined
981 2011-08-26 19:42:52 <imsaguy> ;;seen BlueMattBot
982 2011-08-26 19:42:53 <gribble> BlueMattBot was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 19 hours, 15 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <BlueMattBot> phantomcircuit: yummy! I just love penis!
983 2011-08-26 19:44:54 <imsaguy> heh
984 2011-08-26 19:44:56 btcserve has quit (Quit: Page closed)
985 2011-08-26 19:45:06 <imsaguy> I don't even remember what I had told gribble to tell BlueMatt
986 2011-08-26 19:45:16 zeropointo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
987 2011-08-26 19:49:02 gut4 has joined
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990 2011-08-26 19:53:49 piotrp has joined
991 2011-08-26 20:04:07 gut4 has quit (Quit: gut4)
992 2011-08-26 20:07:19 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r1df76fd / (4 files in 2 dirs): Add tests. - http://git.io/W6Ce9g
993 2011-08-26 20:07:21 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * r0f42456 / src/ecdsa.js :
994 2011-08-26 20:07:21 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Added more ECDSA function and some fixes.
995 2011-08-26 20:07:21 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: decodeFrom is no longer destructive with it's inputs.
996 2011-08-26 20:07:21 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Added isOnCurve().
997 2011-08-26 20:07:22 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Added validate().
998 2011-08-26 20:07:22 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Fixed formatting.
999 2011-08-26 20:07:22 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Factored out new functions serializeSig and parseSig. - http://git.io/Z-DyEg
1000 2011-08-26 20:15:55 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1003 2011-08-26 20:38:55 Matth1a3 has joined
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1005 2011-08-26 20:43:57 <lfm> ;bc,mtgox
1006 2011-08-26 20:47:59 ByronJohnson has joined
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1008 2011-08-26 20:48:58 <imsaguy> lfm, two ;;
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1024 2011-08-26 21:29:54 * Eliel wonders if this would be useful for bitcoin in some way http://www1.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/tresor
1025 2011-08-26 21:30:13 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1026 2011-08-26 21:30:58 <Eliel> ... oh wait, it's a kernel patch... :P
1027 2011-08-26 21:31:11 <Eliel> well, could be used if it ends up in the mainstream kernel :)
1028 2011-08-26 21:31:16 <nanotube> Eliel: once you're worrying about people reading your data off ram... you're better off just going with multi-factor auth.
1029 2011-08-26 21:32:16 erus` has joined
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1032 2011-08-26 21:39:29 <Eliel> I was wondering, for wallet backups, if it might be useful format to contain only keys (and perhaps 99% random unused keys mixed in with the real ones in random order) encrypted with a passphrase.
1033 2011-08-26 21:39:41 <Eliel> keys as in private keys
1034 2011-08-26 21:40:09 <Eliel> the idea is to be very much pain in the ass, if not impossible to brute force.
1035 2011-08-26 21:41:03 <Eliel> if there's no predictable data in the file, the only way to check if a key is valid is to see if the it's public address has any bitcoins.
1036 2011-08-26 21:43:22 <imsaguy> Eliel, so then how does the client know which are the keys to use?
1037 2011-08-26 21:43:45 <imsaguy> whatever method you use to indicate to the client is the same way someone could extract them
1038 2011-08-26 21:43:59 <Eliel> imsaguy: it's a backup, you're suppose to know the passphrase.
1039 2011-08-26 21:44:18 <Eliel> so the client then checks all of them.
1040 2011-08-26 21:44:28 <Eliel> for the given passphrase.
1041 2011-08-26 21:45:01 <makomk> Eliel: it'd end in people thinking the backup was bad and they'd lost all their bitcoins because they typo'd the passphrase...
1042 2011-08-26 21:45:46 <Eliel> makomk: only if they're not warned of how easy that's to do. (ie, if the UI design is bad)
1043 2011-08-26 21:45:58 <ThomasV> nanotube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7Z6pCvRO0
1044 2011-08-26 21:46:19 <makomk> I'm not sure how many users would pay attention to such a warning.
1045 2011-08-26 21:46:42 ByronJohnson has joined
1046 2011-08-26 21:46:43 <Eliel> makomk: even when it's their money at stake? seriously?
1047 2011-08-26 21:46:52 <makomk> Seriously.
1048 2011-08-26 21:46:59 <mtrlt> Eliel: yes.
1049 2011-08-26 21:47:06 <mtrlt> they don't understand that they actually do own their money
1050 2011-08-26 21:47:12 <mtrlt> and there's no-one to help if they screw up
1051 2011-08-26 21:47:47 b4epoche_ has joined
1052 2011-08-26 21:48:21 <Eliel> well, the recovery process could have a check at the end that notes the possibility in the same message that says 0BTC found.
1053 2011-08-26 21:48:29 <makomk> Mostly because it's unexpected behaviour; most stuff tells users when they've entered their password wrong.
1054 2011-08-26 21:48:36 <makomk> That could work... maybe.
1055 2011-08-26 21:50:00 <Eliel> well, with bitcoins, people are going to have to wise up to there actually not being others to help if they do screw up :P
1056 2011-08-26 21:50:41 <mtrlt> it'll take time
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1058 2011-08-26 21:51:13 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1059 2011-08-26 21:51:25 <b4epoche_> OT but interesting: http://www.businessweek.com/technology/how-software-is-harming-science-engineering-08252011.html
1060 2011-08-26 21:52:53 m00p has joined
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1062 2011-08-26 21:53:48 <Eliel> b4epoche_: I'm laughing out loud here reading that article :D
1063 2011-08-26 21:54:06 * b4epoche_ thinks its basically true
1064 2011-08-26 21:55:10 <Eliel> well, he's got some points there but I think he misunderstands the point he was criticizing.
1065 2011-08-26 21:55:45 <Eliel> software is going to be a part of virtually any advancement on any other field.
1066 2011-08-26 21:55:48 <b4epoche_> which you think is what?
1067 2011-08-26 21:55:58 marf_away has joined
1068 2011-08-26 21:56:12 <nanotube> ThomasV: nice :)
1069 2011-08-26 21:56:22 <b4epoche_> like, like an advance in welding
1070 2011-08-26 21:56:53 <Eliel> b4epoche_: very likely to involve software somehow.
1071 2011-08-26 21:57:05 <Eliel> if not in actual practical use, in the design.
1072 2011-08-26 21:57:14 <Eliel> and testing
1073 2011-08-26 21:57:14 <b4epoche_> and any advance is very likely to involve welding ;-)
1074 2011-08-26 21:58:12 m00p has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1075 2011-08-26 21:58:24 <nanotube> welding is taking over the world!
1076 2011-08-26 21:58:32 <Eliel> basically, the writer of this article you linked to misunderstands the "poised to take over broad swathes of the economy"
1077 2011-08-26 21:58:37 <b4epoche_> it's a dirty job that no one wants
1078 2011-08-26 21:58:44 <ThomasV> nanotube: it has display + pin number + rfid
1079 2011-08-26 21:58:45 m00p has joined
1080 2011-08-26 21:59:17 <nanotube> neat.
1081 2011-08-26 21:59:37 <ThomasV> nanotube: http://www.smartdisplayer.com/page_01_a.html#05
1082 2011-08-26 22:00:02 <ThomasV> I love it
1083 2011-08-26 22:00:11 <Eliel> b4epoche_: it doesn't mean software will be in the flashlights. It just means there will be software in everything. Hence, very profitable to be in software.
1084 2011-08-26 22:00:25 <nanotube> ThomasV: cool, so are you going to make these for bitcoin? :)
1085 2011-08-26 22:00:43 <ThomasV> nanotube: maybe; I need to check if the chip can do ecdsa
1086 2011-08-26 22:00:46 piotrp has quit (Quit: piotrp)
1087 2011-08-26 22:00:48 phantomcircuit_ is now known as phantomcircuit
1088 2011-08-26 22:00:58 <nanotube> mm
1089 2011-08-26 22:01:05 <b4epoche_> but I think it's going to be very not-profitable to be in software, unless you live in India or China
1090 2011-08-26 22:01:33 <sytse> wallet.cpp line 803: if (nTotalLower == nTargetValue || nTotalLower == nTargetValue + CENT)
1091 2011-08-26 22:01:55 <sytse> shouldn't that be, (nTotalLower >= nTargetValue || nTotalLower <= nTargetValue + CENT)?
1092 2011-08-26 22:02:39 <Eliel> b4epoche_: I don't think you realize the magnitude of difference between the average programmer and even just good programmers.
1093 2011-08-26 22:02:41 <ThomasV> nanotube: the problem with rfid is that merchants do not have readers ; they typically have smart card readers for cards with chip
1094 2011-08-26 22:03:16 <ThomasV> (where you insert the card)
1095 2011-08-26 22:03:17 <b4epoche_> eliel: and there aren't good programmers amoung the 1 billion Indians?
1096 2011-08-26 22:03:18 <nanotube> the other problem with rfid is that it leaks data, doesn't it? (I.e., anyone can ninja-read your rfid?)
1097 2011-08-26 22:03:26 <Eliel> pushing everything to india/china means you get average programmers cheap
1098 2011-08-26 22:03:40 <Eliel> because there's just too much demand for programmers from there.
1099 2011-08-26 22:03:41 <ThomasV> nanotube: no, not if you confirm with pin on your card
1100 2011-08-26 22:03:52 <Eliel> there's the occasional good one of course.
1101 2011-08-26 22:03:55 <Eliel> but not enough
1102 2011-08-26 22:04:21 <ThomasV> these cards have a keypad and a display
1103 2011-08-26 22:04:29 <nanotube> mmm
1104 2011-08-26 22:04:31 <b4epoche_> but that's the problem⦠most innovations just need average programmers
1105 2011-08-26 22:05:07 <b4epoche_> the software in my refrigerator need not be written by a good programmer
1106 2011-08-26 22:05:22 <Eliel> b4epoche_: it's not what you can build with average programmers vs good programmers. You can usually get the job done even with average programmers too.
1107 2011-08-26 22:05:38 <Eliel> good programmers get the same job done faster and with less bugs
1108 2011-08-26 22:05:44 * b4epoche_ thinks there will be a day, in the not too distant future, in which programming is viewed as a trade (like welding)
1109 2011-08-26 22:06:04 <sytse> b4epoche_: that day is 1970
1110 2011-08-26 22:06:08 <mtrlt> um what is it viewed as currently?
1111 2011-08-26 22:06:14 <ThomasV> I do not know how much they cost, though
1112 2011-08-26 22:06:26 <sytse> mtrlt: as something you pick some losers from the street for
1113 2011-08-26 22:06:27 m00p has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1114 2011-08-26 22:06:31 <sytse> mtrlt: as long as they do what you tell them to
1115 2011-08-26 22:06:49 <mtrlt> i've not seen that attitude in practice :P
1116 2011-08-26 22:06:52 <sytse> because IT projects fail anyway, everybody knows that, that's nobody's fault right?
1117 2011-08-26 22:06:59 <b4epoche_> i.e. a trade instead of a profession
1118 2011-08-26 22:07:01 <mtrlt> but it might very well exist
1119 2011-08-26 22:07:05 <Eliel> b4epoche_: basically, it'll be cheaper to pay a few good programmers the money a dozen average ones would need and get a better result, faster.
1120 2011-08-26 22:07:32 <sytse> Eliel: yes, but tell that to a manager
1121 2011-08-26 22:07:50 <Eliel> sytse: managers will learn, eventually.
1122 2011-08-26 22:08:09 * b4epoche_ will be a member of Coders Local 354
1123 2011-08-26 22:08:38 * b4epoche_ is guess age(sytse) >> age(Eliel)
1124 2011-08-26 22:09:26 m00p has joined
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1126 2011-08-26 22:10:49 <Eliel> anyway, the number of managers that realize that is not too high but they exist.
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1130 2011-08-26 22:12:29 <b4epoche_> but more on-topic⦠I think bitcoin is (could be) a counter example of an innovation build entirely from software
1131 2011-08-26 22:14:58 <sytse> b4epoche_: nah, I'm still young and relatively uninitiated in the world of business
1132 2011-08-26 22:15:14 * sytse has no more than 2 years of work experience now
1133 2011-08-26 22:15:31 <sytse> 26 yo
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1138 2011-08-26 22:21:11 * sytse wonders how many nice, clean, untraceable 50BTC reward transactions he should keep for sentimental reasons
1139 2011-08-26 22:21:30 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1140 2011-08-26 22:21:33 <imsaguy> sytse, as many as you can
1141 2011-08-26 22:21:38 <imsaguy> they'll be worth something someday
1142 2011-08-26 22:21:57 <sytse> maybe keep it a clean number, like 100
1143 2011-08-26 22:22:34 <sytse> imsaguy: do you really think so? :)
1144 2011-08-26 22:23:32 <imsaguy> yeah
1145 2011-08-26 22:23:40 <imsaguy> kinda like an unused quarter
1146 2011-08-26 22:23:53 denisx has joined
1147 2011-08-26 22:24:03 <sytse> I'd only be able to sell them for more than the normal price if I kept them off my tax returns though I suppose, which would entail never selling them anywhere but on the black market
1148 2011-08-26 22:24:07 <sytse> which is risky
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1151 2011-08-26 22:25:03 <BitManiac> just file the taxes man
1152 2011-08-26 22:25:07 <BitManiac> better in the long run
1153 2011-08-26 22:25:08 <sytse> exactly
1154 2011-08-26 22:25:12 <sytse> I will
1155 2011-08-26 22:25:38 <sytse> imsaguy: or do you think some dumb people will actually be willing to pay more for a clean 50 BTC because they think it makes them look cool?
1156 2011-08-26 22:25:49 <BitManiac> dumb people will pay for anything
1157 2011-08-26 22:25:53 <sytse> heh
1158 2011-08-26 22:25:55 <sytse> that's true
1159 2011-08-26 22:25:58 <sytse> even bitcoins
1160 2011-08-26 22:26:00 <sytse> *ahem*
1161 2011-08-26 22:26:00 <sytse> wait
1162 2011-08-26 22:26:03 <sytse> I didn't say that
1163 2011-08-26 22:26:07 <BitManiac> I saw someone on bitcointalk the other day
1164 2011-08-26 22:26:09 <sytse> ;-)
1165 2011-08-26 22:26:25 <BitManiac> offering 1.15BTC for any bitcoins that were mined on his son's birthday
1166 2011-08-26 22:26:30 <sytse> rofl
1167 2011-08-26 22:26:37 <BitManiac> because he wants to keep them for him when he grows up
1168 2011-08-26 22:26:44 <BitManiac> most retarded shit I ever heard
1169 2011-08-26 22:27:00 <BitManiac> "here you go son, a 256 bit hash key"
1170 2011-08-26 22:27:04 <BitManiac> "happy birthday!!!"
1171 2011-08-26 22:27:19 <sytse> a 256 bit hash key that might be worth $100000 by then btw
1172 2011-08-26 22:27:24 <BitManiac> yeah
1173 2011-08-26 22:27:26 <BitManiac> or 0.01c
1174 2011-08-26 22:27:33 <sytse> sure
1175 2011-08-26 22:27:50 <BitManiac> something like 75% of all bitcoins are hoarded
1176 2011-08-26 22:28:15 <BitManiac> for them to escalate in value that much they need to start flowing around a little more
1177 2011-08-26 22:28:19 <BitManiac> or a LOT more
1178 2011-08-26 22:28:38 <sytse> it would need to become a common thing
1179 2011-08-26 22:28:40 <sytse> not as common as gold
1180 2011-08-26 22:28:42 <sytse> but still common
1181 2011-08-26 22:29:44 <lfm> BitManiac: are you haveing trouble buying as many bitcoin as you would like to buy?
1182 2011-08-26 22:30:17 <BitManiac> no
1183 2011-08-26 22:30:20 <imsaguy> sytse, the thing about selling 'clean' btc is
1184 2011-08-26 22:30:20 <BitManiac> Britcoin is back up :)
1185 2011-08-26 22:30:26 <imsaguy> once you transfer it, its not clean anymore
1186 2011-08-26 22:30:31 <sytse> imsaguy: yep
1187 2011-08-26 22:30:31 <imsaguy> there's a transaction :p
1188 2011-08-26 22:30:33 <sytse> I know
1189 2011-08-26 22:30:43 <imsaguy> so buying a clean bitcoin to be cool wouldn't hold
1190 2011-08-26 22:30:55 <imsaguy> but someone might
1191 2011-08-26 22:31:47 <pigeons> you can trade the private key, but how do you know the seller didn't keep a copy?
1192 2011-08-26 22:32:21 <log0s> you can have a miner put your bitcoin address in the coingen tx instead of their own
1193 2011-08-26 22:32:44 <pigeons> i think the more transactions the coin has been involved would be "cooler" than none
1194 2011-08-26 22:32:47 <log0s> i think luke-jr has done that for people before, and charged a premium
1195 2011-08-26 22:33:21 <Eliel> yes, and any fees paid on transactions become "clean" BTC as well.
1196 2011-08-26 22:33:44 <imsaguy> well
1197 2011-08-26 22:33:51 <Eliel> they're basically mixed in with the generated BTC in the block.
1198 2011-08-26 22:33:52 <imsaguy> to say coin is a bit deceptive
1199 2011-08-26 22:34:04 <imsaguy> because they are split and merged all the time
1200 2011-08-26 22:34:13 <imsaguy> so its hard to say which is which after the first merge
1201 2011-08-26 22:34:16 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1202 2011-08-26 22:34:34 <Eliel> imsaguy: there are no coins, really :P only transactions :)
1203 2011-08-26 22:35:05 <Eliel> so, it's just handy to use the word "coin" for a single outpoint, be it whatever size it is.
1204 2011-08-26 22:35:40 <lfm> ya, and trnsactions dont really have datestamps, only the block headers have datestamps
1205 2011-08-26 22:36:09 <imsaguy> so to say you have a 'coin' with many transactions really doesn't mean anything
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1207 2011-08-26 22:42:13 <sytse> BitManiac: hmmm, btw, the total number of bitcoins will be 21 million, so if bitcoin were to become 1/1000th as interesting as gold (ie, if the total amount of bitcoins were worth 1/1000th of the total amount of gold), 1 BTC would be worth $500
1208 2011-08-26 22:42:31 <sytse> so $100000 per BTC would be ridiculous indeed
1209 2011-08-26 22:43:58 <b4epoche_> sytse: use the amount of USD in circulation...
1210 2011-08-26 22:44:09 <b4epoche_> the numbers get pretty ridiculous
1211 2011-08-26 22:45:15 <sytse> of course, but that's only ever going to happen if bitcoin manages to become a common payment method
1212 2011-08-26 22:48:04 <sytse> which I hold to be fairly unlikely
1213 2011-08-26 22:49:13 <nanotube> if it remains cheaper to accept than credit cards, it is imo quite likely. since easy pnp merchant solutions will inevitably develop.
1214 2011-08-26 22:49:31 <b4epoche_> but even if you take a very small percentage it's still surprisingly high
1215 2011-08-26 22:50:00 <nanotube> well, credit cards take about 3%
1216 2011-08-26 22:50:14 <b4epoche_> nanotube: that wasn't for you
1217 2011-08-26 22:50:15 <nanotube> plus there's the expected loss of P(chargeback)*avg(chargebackamount)
1218 2011-08-26 22:50:28 <b4epoche_> yea, cc do take about 3%
1219 2011-08-26 22:50:34 <nanotube> ah :)
1220 2011-08-26 22:50:52 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1221 2011-08-26 22:51:04 <nanotube> bitcoin automagically eliminates the latter, and as long as the processor takes less than 3%, bitcoin remains financially attractive.
1222 2011-08-26 22:51:10 <b4epoche_> but I was talking about (usd in circulation)/(21M btc)*(small fraction) = (big number)
1223 2011-08-26 22:51:20 <nanotube> though i wonder if a processor is not required by law to allow buyers to chargeback....
1224 2011-08-26 22:51:40 <nanotube> (prob depends on jurisdiction...)
1225 2011-08-26 22:51:51 <nanotube> b4epoche_: aah ic what you meant by small percentage ;)
1226 2011-08-26 22:51:57 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r829e217 / (4 files in 2 dirs): CHECKMULTISIG unit tests. - http://git.io/lr3rnA
1227 2011-08-26 22:52:05 <nanotube> ooo multisig!
1228 2011-08-26 22:52:57 * b4epoche_ wonders about chargeback laws tooâ¦
1229 2011-08-26 22:53:12 <b4epoche_> seems fundamentally flawed to have them but so many laws are
1230 2011-08-26 22:53:32 <nanotube> well, it's not really flawed... ultimately, /someone/ has to bear the risk of fraud.
1231 2011-08-26 22:53:56 <phantomcircuit> b4epoche, it's supposed to be consumer protection, but that fails to take account of p2p business
1232 2011-08-26 22:54:11 <b4epoche_> nanotube: that's not what I'm talking about
1233 2011-08-26 22:54:28 <b4epoche_> paying with a cc should be no different than paying with cash
1234 2011-08-26 22:54:49 <b4epoche_> if you want you're money back you go beat the shit out of the dude that sold you crap and take it back
1235 2011-08-26 22:54:50 <lfm> why
1236 2011-08-26 22:55:03 <nanotube> paying with a cc frequently happens over large distances
1237 2011-08-26 22:55:20 <nanotube> will you take a trip to texas to beat up a guy who failed to ship you a $30 doodad?
1238 2011-08-26 22:55:50 <phantomcircuit> worse the guy in texas could charge you $50
1239 2011-08-26 22:55:54 <nanotube> lol
1240 2011-08-26 22:55:54 <phantomcircuit> and then send it to you
1241 2011-08-26 22:55:56 <b4epoche_> well, no, but in Tx I'm sure someone close by would take $10 to do the job for me
1242 2011-08-26 22:56:12 <phantomcircuit> credit cards are just stupidly designed
1243 2011-08-26 22:56:18 <phantomcircuit> they trust everybody in the entire system
1244 2011-08-26 22:56:30 <lfm> do you put the $10 on your cc?
1245 2011-08-26 22:56:30 <nanotube> it is not unreasonable to suggest, that most individuals would find it a negative-EV proposition to expend resources to pursue a small fraud
1246 2011-08-26 22:56:39 <nanotube> while a fraudster will find in profitable to conduct a lot of them
1247 2011-08-26 22:56:55 <nanotube> so putting the risk on the business discourages seller-fraud.
1248 2011-08-26 22:57:41 <b4epoche_> when I was getting a business set up to accept credit cards (many years ago) I was informed that restaurants had high fees because a lot of patrons would chargeback the 'meal' if they didn't like it
1249 2011-08-26 22:57:45 <nanotube> it encourages buyer-fraud, on the other hand. however, since in case of seller-fraud, you end up with liquid cash, while in case of buyer-fraud you end up with $doodad... large-scale buyer fraud is generally less likely, and less profitable.
1250 2011-08-26 22:58:01 <nanotube> yea, buyer fraud.
1251 2011-08-26 22:58:04 <lfm> suposedly they also do it to "encourage" the retailers to check signatures and stuff too, never worked tho
1252 2011-08-26 22:58:41 <nanotube> anyway, not that i support chargebacks :) but just saying that there's a logic to it.
1253 2011-08-26 22:59:16 <b4epoche_> http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/credit_card_chargeback_rights.php
1254 2011-08-26 22:59:16 <nanotube> in the world of paying by bitcoin over the internet, i'd certainly want to at least use escrow, before i deal with a random business i haven't dealt with before.
1255 2011-08-26 22:59:38 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: you mean high prices?
1256 2011-08-26 22:59:46 <sytse> b4epoche_: so the weird thing is, bitcoin price is so ridiculously high at the moment, that the total amount of bitcoins is still worth more than 1/200000'th of the total US money stock (according to the 'M2' measure of http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/hist/h6hist7.htm )
1257 2011-08-26 22:59:48 <nanotube> i.e., how do i know if bitmunchies will send me the chips, or just take my coins? well, every bitcoiner knows about bitmunchies. but once we get to the point when we have 100s of thousands of little businesses?
1258 2011-08-26 23:00:06 <luke-jr> sytse: erm, Bitcoin prices are ridiculously *low*
1259 2011-08-26 23:00:16 <b4epoche_> luke-jr, sytse : eh?
1260 2011-08-26 23:00:20 <luke-jr> who is starting this "high" FUD?
1261 2011-08-26 23:00:27 <sytse> me
1262 2011-08-26 23:00:37 blishchrot has joined
1263 2011-08-26 23:00:43 <b4epoche_> luke-jr: read the discussion carefully
1264 2011-08-26 23:01:46 <nanotube> sytse: 5e-6 is a pretty small fraction of anything :P
1265 2011-08-26 23:01:51 <sytse> luke-jr: well, maybe my point is just that the average bitcoin user is much richer than the average US citizen
1266 2011-08-26 23:01:59 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1267 2011-08-26 23:02:03 <luke-jr> sytse: that should be obvious
1268 2011-08-26 23:02:10 <luke-jr> sytse: Bitcoin requires internet
1269 2011-08-26 23:02:15 <sytse> lol
1270 2011-08-26 23:02:24 <lfm> sytse: if the price is too low no one will want to mine and the whole thing will fall apart
1271 2011-08-26 23:02:26 <nanotube> and a computer, and spare cash to risk on a startup currency
1272 2011-08-26 23:02:32 <luke-jr> ^
1273 2011-08-26 23:02:33 <sytse> lfm: true
1274 2011-08-26 23:02:35 <sytse> lfm: well
1275 2011-08-26 23:02:50 <sytse> lfm: *less* people will want to mine
1276 2011-08-26 23:02:57 <sytse> because when less people mine
1277 2011-08-26 23:02:59 <sytse> they get more money
1278 2011-08-26 23:03:02 <b4epoche_> weird: see #2 under "However, unlike billing errors, you must meet four additional conditions:" on that web site I posted
1279 2011-08-26 23:03:36 <sytse> so the amount of miners should naturally follow the value of bitcoins
1280 2011-08-26 23:03:49 <cjdelisle> I find it interesting that if every miner was using mrb's whitepixel setup (which is really efficient) then the amount of money in hardware would be around 20 million USD
1281 2011-08-26 23:03:57 <b4epoche_> sytse: kinda⦠but what else you gonna do with that mining rig?
1282 2011-08-26 23:04:10 <sytse> cjdelisle: whut? Really?
1283 2011-08-26 23:04:34 <b4epoche_> link to mrb's whitepixel setup?
1284 2011-08-26 23:04:42 <sytse> b4epoche_: well, it's like farming: when there are too many, ultimately competition is going to be so tough that some people have to drop out, and it will hurt them
1285 2011-08-26 23:04:47 <sytse> but that's economy
1286 2011-08-26 23:05:08 <b4epoche_> sytse: what?
1287 2011-08-26 23:05:22 <b4epoche_> why you telling me that?
1288 2011-08-26 23:05:24 <nanotube> sytse: also, consider that if the 'average bitcoin user' has maybe 100btc or so... he's not really "much richer" than everyone else in the devolped world.
1289 2011-08-26 23:05:28 <sytse> too much supply => prices too low
1290 2011-08-26 23:05:47 <luke-jr> nanotube: he said average, not median
1291 2011-08-26 23:06:06 <cjdelisle> hangon I have a paste somewhere with all the math
1292 2011-08-26 23:06:09 <nanotube> which is not unlikely, there are 7million coins... maybe 50k-100k "users"...
1293 2011-08-26 23:06:40 <sytse> so a million dollars per user
1294 2011-08-26 23:06:43 <nanotube> luke-jr: meh, not that relevant to the overall point.
1295 2011-08-26 23:06:51 <nanotube> sytse: no, 7mil / 100k is 70
1296 2011-08-26 23:06:54 <nanotube> 70 coins is ... 700 bucks
1297 2011-08-26 23:07:01 <sytse> uh indeed
1298 2011-08-26 23:07:06 <sytse> a thousand coins per user
1299 2011-08-26 23:07:09 <sytse> *dollars
1300 2011-08-26 23:07:14 <sytse> I'm not thinking straight =]
1301 2011-08-26 23:07:43 <luke-jr> average American probably has less :P
1302 2011-08-26 23:07:43 <nanotube> i wish i had a million dollars... haha
1303 2011-08-26 23:07:51 <sytse> luke-jr: rofl
1304 2011-08-26 23:07:58 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1305 2011-08-26 23:08:01 <nanotube> hehe, once you net out the debt, possibly so
1306 2011-08-26 23:08:02 <sytse> nanotube: yeah, me too..
1307 2011-08-26 23:08:25 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1308 2011-08-26 23:08:34 <luke-jr> most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, I think
1309 2011-08-26 23:08:44 sacredchao has joined
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1311 2011-08-26 23:09:00 <BitManiac> taking credit card is a lot more espensive than 3%
1312 2011-08-26 23:09:08 <BitManiac> 3% is just transaction fees
1313 2011-08-26 23:09:12 <nanotube> so iow, the current bitcoin price is "in the realm of reasonable" at worst, or quite undervalued at best. imo.
1314 2011-08-26 23:09:27 <nanotube> luke-jr: what paycheck? :P
1315 2011-08-26 23:09:30 <BitManiac> you've also got to have an account with a merchant bank
1316 2011-08-26 23:09:37 <BitManiac> then there's chargeback costs
1317 2011-08-26 23:09:45 <BitManiac> and if you want to avoid those, fraud prevention costs
1318 2011-08-26 23:09:45 <sytse> but I doubt there are 50k bitcoin users with at least as many bitcoins as they have money in their bank accounts plus savings accounts
1319 2011-08-26 23:09:53 <b4epoche_> http://www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/
1320 2011-08-26 23:09:54 <sytse> plus cash
1321 2011-08-26 23:09:56 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1322 2011-08-26 23:09:57 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":9.889,"low":7.642,"avg":8.890382398,"vwap":8.684594559,"vol":82906,"last":8,"buy":7.999,"sell":8}}
1323 2011-08-26 23:10:04 <BitManiac> it's more like between 5-10%, depending on the size of the compant
1324 2011-08-26 23:10:05 <BitManiac> y
1325 2011-08-26 23:10:38 <BitManiac> it's also a complete PITA to administer a payment gateway
1326 2011-08-26 23:10:38 <nanotube> sytse: well, chances are people with bitcoins tend to have rather more spare cash than those without, on average.
1327 2011-08-26 23:10:46 <BitManiac> so most companies outsource their checkout
1328 2011-08-26 23:10:47 <b4epoche_> BitManiac: yes, it does add up
1329 2011-08-26 23:10:49 <BitManiac> so have to pay for that too
1330 2011-08-26 23:10:49 <nanotube> BitManiac: well, that's good news for bitcoin :)
1331 2011-08-26 23:11:10 <BitManiac> sure
1332 2011-08-26 23:11:13 <b4epoche_> BitManiac: and it is a PITA even without a gateway
1333 2011-08-26 23:11:15 <sytse> so my point was, not many people or businesses have a significant amount of their liquid or semi-liquid (savings account) currency in bitcoins
1334 2011-08-26 23:11:58 <sytse> which makes me wonder how bitcoins could really be worth $8
1335 2011-08-26 23:12:11 <sytse> it's extremely hard to make a comparison though
1336 2011-08-26 23:12:12 <BitManiac> same as how a peice of gold is worth $1800
1337 2011-08-26 23:12:18 <BitManiac> people are prepared to pay it
1338 2011-08-26 23:12:22 <nanotube> sytse: oh, that's clearly due to speculative activity, pricing in expectations for the future.
1339 2011-08-26 23:12:37 <nanotube> it's not due to sitting in float accounts of various businesses
1340 2011-08-26 23:13:00 <BitManiac> yeah you're treating bitcoin like a Fiat currency
1341 2011-08-26 23:13:09 <BitManiac> there is no dollar reserve backing it up
1342 2011-08-26 23:13:11 <BitManiac> it is what it is
1343 2011-08-26 23:13:26 <sytse> BitManiac: oh, and of course stocks plus everything else material (like houses) people own and plan to sell one day is worth lots more than the total circulation
1344 2011-08-26 23:13:29 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1345 2011-08-26 23:13:46 <BitManiac> sure
1346 2011-08-26 23:13:53 RandomMinds has joined
1347 2011-08-26 23:13:54 <sytse> so that would mean the total bitcoin value is manageable to keep up by the economy, because houses and stocks do so as well
1348 2011-08-26 23:13:58 <BitManiac> "worth" is only an idea someone has in their head
1349 2011-08-26 23:14:01 <BitManiac> it's meaningless really
1350 2011-08-26 23:14:05 <BitManiac> when you break it down
1351 2011-08-26 23:14:09 <nanotube> sytse: anyway.... feel free to borrow some coins and short them, or buy some put options, if you want to put your money where your mouth is. :)
1352 2011-08-26 23:14:11 <BitManiac> we've just become lazy in our thinking
1353 2011-08-26 23:14:17 <sytse> nanotube: nah
1354 2011-08-26 23:14:23 <BitManiac> conditioned by the banks and corporations to assume that prices are prices
1355 2011-08-26 23:14:30 <sytse> nanotube: I think over the next 6 months, prices will rise above $20 again
1356 2011-08-26 23:14:41 <BitManiac> and they only change a tiny amount, not worth worrying about really
1357 2011-08-26 23:14:41 <nanotube> mm :)
1358 2011-08-26 23:14:52 <BitManiac> but actually
1359 2011-08-26 23:15:01 <BitManiac> when gas prices can rise 200% in a few years
1360 2011-08-26 23:15:07 <BitManiac> people start to question the value of money
1361 2011-08-26 23:15:29 <sytse> nanotube: because of all the fancy new things bitcoin businesses are planning to introduce over the next few months
1362 2011-08-26 23:15:40 <nanotube> heh
1363 2011-08-26 23:15:46 <lfm> gas prices rise 20% in 2 minutes
1364 2011-08-26 23:15:57 <BitManiac> yeah
1365 2011-08-26 23:16:04 <BitManiac> price of crude goes up: gas goes up
1366 2011-08-26 23:16:11 <BitManiac> price of crude stays the same: gas goes up
1367 2011-08-26 23:16:18 <BitManiac> price of crude goes down: gas goes up
1368 2011-08-26 23:16:20 <BitManiac> nice one.
1369 2011-08-26 23:16:27 <BitManiac> thanks, big oil companies! :D
1370 2011-08-26 23:16:39 <BitManiac> without you I'd have far too much spare money just sitting around
1371 2011-08-26 23:16:42 <BitManiac> making me sad
1372 2011-08-26 23:16:46 <BitManiac> thanks for heling me spend it
1373 2011-08-26 23:16:51 <sytse> (but according to both btctrading.wordpress.com and bitcoinwatch.com, the current bearish trend is not set to change at all in the short term, which I would agree with, so I guess we'll see it drop below $5 within the next few weeks)
1374 2011-08-26 23:17:13 * b4epoche_ walks to work
1375 2011-08-26 23:17:15 <BitManiac> neither of those websites can see the future
1376 2011-08-26 23:17:22 <BitManiac> you can spend your life sitting looking at graphs
1377 2011-08-26 23:17:27 <sytse> BitManiac: btw, gas prices rose less where I live
1378 2011-08-26 23:17:35 <BitManiac> you have as much chance as guessing the market as anyone else
1379 2011-08-26 23:17:42 <sytse> because the taxes are phenomenal here
1380 2011-08-26 23:18:24 <BitManiac> sweden?
1381 2011-08-26 23:19:15 <sytse> the netherlands
1382 2011-08-26 23:19:28 <BitManiac> fair one
1383 2011-08-26 23:19:40 <BitManiac> nobody pays more for gas in europe than us in the UK though I don't think
1384 2011-08-26 23:20:05 <BitManiac> we have 85% tax rate or something stupid like that
1385 2011-08-26 23:20:13 fathead has quit (Quit: leaving)
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1388 2011-08-26 23:23:10 <sytse> BitManiac: I pay ⬠1.60 per liter, which is $8.781/gal
1389 2011-08-26 23:23:14 <sytse> oh
1390 2011-08-26 23:23:16 <sytse> UK
1391 2011-08-26 23:23:46 <sytse> £1.417/l
1392 2011-08-26 23:23:54 <sytse> is what I'd pay BitManiac
1393 2011-08-26 23:24:01 <sytse> here across the street anyway
1394 2011-08-26 23:24:48 <sytse> ahem
1395 2011-08-26 23:24:58 <sytse> ridiculous indeed, when I look back at the prices in 2008
1396 2011-08-26 23:25:06 <sytse> (I didn't have a car back then)
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1406 2011-08-26 23:49:46 <cjdelisle> sytse: http://bitcoinanalisys.pastebay.com/136608
1407 2011-08-26 23:50:31 <cjdelisle> 20,035,650 dollars worth of mining equipment
1408 2011-08-26 23:51:14 <cjdelisle> 18,450 kilowatts and each minted coin requires 18,450 / 300 or 61.5 kilowatthours
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1410 2011-08-26 23:51:38 <luke-jr> on average*
1411 2011-08-26 23:51:59 <cjdelisle> yea, those are all bastardavrigizations
1412 2011-08-26 23:52:02 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, shockingly the profit involed in mining has dropped to almost nothing
1413 2011-08-26 23:52:05 <phantomcircuit> who would have guessed
1414 2011-08-26 23:52:20 <cjdelisle> I never got in to mining because I predicted this
1415 2011-08-26 23:52:37 <sytse> cjdelisle: damn
1416 2011-08-26 23:52:44 <cjdelisle> need a wpa for btc site
1417 2011-08-26 23:52:56 <cjdelisle> so people can mine something else...
1418 2011-08-26 23:53:34 <cjdelisle> not necessarily wpa, there are pharmapsutical companies, financials, etc who might have raw data they want crunched on an opencl army
1419 2011-08-26 23:54:01 normanrichards has joined
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1421 2011-08-26 23:55:07 <cjdelisle> eventially all mining will be done by botnets and mining rigs will generally be unprofitable
1422 2011-08-26 23:55:47 <cjdelisle> also botnets are the other ? factor, how much of that $20M is involuntary?
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