1 2011-08-27 00:01:32 <sytse> one thing won't *ever* change: the amount of electricity spent on maintaining the bitcoin network will always be around (or maybe a little lower, but not much) the current spot price of the average amount of bitcoins awarded in fees plus generated coins (the latter of which will eventually taper off completely) in the same time unit
   2 2011-08-27 00:03:30 <sytse> what will change is that eventually gpu mining will cease, and specialised companies with high-performance fpga or maybe even asic hardware will take over; whenever a more efficient technology arises to generate hashes, any less efficient technology will become unprofitable
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   6 2011-08-27 00:07:09 <sytse> well, that's again exactly the same as farming
   7 2011-08-27 00:08:19 <sytse> farming with the efficiency of farming 20 years ago doesn't happen anymore because that would drive you bankrupt
   8 2011-08-27 00:08:43 <cjdelisle> yea unless you develop a niche market, organic etc.
   9 2011-08-27 00:10:22 <sytse> of course
  10 2011-08-27 00:10:30 <sytse> bitcoin is simpler
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  14 2011-08-27 00:12:33 <sytse> what's interesting though, is that with farming, location is everything; that's the reason inefficient farming in third world countries can still exist
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  17 2011-08-27 00:13:14 <sytse> with bitcoins it would be the opposite: mining would only take place in the location in the world where electricity is cheapest, because location doesn't matter for getting the 'produce' somewhere
  18 2011-08-27 00:13:26 <cjdelisle> good point
  19 2011-08-27 00:13:44 <sytse> ultimately it will become infeasible to generate bitcoins in a first world country
  20 2011-08-27 00:13:52 <cjdelisle> I heard england subsidises their mines :P
  21 2011-08-27 00:14:27 <sytse> which would also mean that only *large* corporations could turn any profit at all from bitcoin mining
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  23 2011-08-27 00:14:33 <BitManiac> with a FGPA device and a small solar panel you can mine for free
  24 2011-08-27 00:15:00 <sytse> hah
  25 2011-08-27 00:15:15 <sytse> solar energy is actually expensive
  26 2011-08-27 00:15:23 <BitManiac> wut
  27 2011-08-27 00:15:25 <sytse> nuclear energy is the bomb ;-)
  28 2011-08-27 00:16:11 <sytse> maybe someone will build a nuclear plant some day, just for mining bitcoins, not even connected to anything other than a huge ASIC mining rig ;-)
  29 2011-08-27 00:16:20 <BitManiac> lul
  30 2011-08-27 00:16:35 <BitManiac> maybe it would be cheaper just to buy bitcoins
  31 2011-08-27 00:16:44 <sytse> nah
  32 2011-08-27 00:17:33 <sytse> if you can get cheaper electricity than anybody else, and an efficient mining rig, it'll be cheaper than to buy bitcoins.. that's the law
  33 2011-08-27 00:17:37 <sytse> the only law of bitcoin ;-0
  34 2011-08-27 00:18:50 <sytse> and a risk: if one party managed to get electricity much cheaper than electricity anywhere else in the world, everybody but that guy would stop mining
  35 2011-08-27 00:19:33 <sytse> so that guy could stop mining as well, for 99,9999%, because nobody could challenge him, and he would get all the bitcoin fees in the world for practically nothing ;-)
  36 2011-08-27 00:20:03 <sytse> (also he'd control the bitcoin network for 100%)
  37 2011-08-27 00:20:29 <sytse> and we'd be back to evil corporations, just like the current world ;-)
  38 2011-08-27 00:20:32 <iddo> aren't you assuming that the market price would be only a little more than electricity cost?
  39 2011-08-27 00:20:33 shadders has joined
  40 2011-08-27 00:20:54 <iddo> this assumption is not true for gold mining
  41 2011-08-27 00:21:16 <iddo> i.e. market price for gold is much higher that cost of production
  42 2011-08-27 00:21:29 <sytse> iddo: yes. But if it wasn't, more people would start mining, or buying more electricity to mine, and electricity cost per bitcoin would rise
  43 2011-08-27 00:21:47 <sytse> that's not easily possible with gold
  44 2011-08-27 00:21:49 chinaskibit has joined
  45 2011-08-27 00:22:01 <sytse> (it is happening, of course, but slowly. It can't follow the market as quickly as it could with bitcoins)
  46 2011-08-27 00:23:54 <sytse> bitcoins have a mechanism for making them more expensive to mine as more is mined, gold doesn't, it only has the laws of nature which don't change
  47 2011-08-27 00:24:44 <iddo> still, you haven't argued why the bitcoin market price should be only constant % more than the cost of production
  48 2011-08-27 00:26:09 <iddo> e.g. if the market price is twice the cost of electricity, then you'd want to mine even if electricty is more expensive than in another country
  49 2011-08-27 00:26:53 <iddo> i meant small %
  50 2011-08-27 00:27:56 XX01XX has joined
  51 2011-08-27 00:29:46 <BitManiac> the cost of gold mining is determined by a lot more than jsut the laws of nature
  52 2011-08-27 00:30:04 RandomMinds has joined
  53 2011-08-27 00:30:19 <BitManiac> a lot of people can mine bitcoins for free, so any price is going to be profitable for them
  54 2011-08-27 00:30:36 <BitManiac> and some will mine simply to keep their hoard of bitcoins valuable
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  57 2011-08-27 00:38:22 <sytse> iddo: that's because whether people will want to buy or stockpile bitcoins or not, doesn't depend on the amount of miners
  58 2011-08-27 00:38:34 <sytse> it's the other way around
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  61 2011-08-27 00:40:07 zipperhead has joined
  62 2011-08-27 00:41:30 <zipperhead> Hi DevTeam... is there a new releases of the BTC client coming out soon with new cool features?
  63 2011-08-27 00:41:44 <iddo> sytse: i fail to understand
  64 2011-08-27 00:41:56 <zipperhead> eg, encrypted wallet en seq.
  65 2011-08-27 00:43:01 <iddo> sytse: i claim e.g. btc price could be 5 times the average electricity cost, just because people value it as medium of exchange and store of value
  66 2011-08-27 00:45:36 Kobier_ has joined
  67 2011-08-27 00:48:22 <BitManiac> I have a question
  68 2011-08-27 00:48:29 <log0s> iddo: that's true, it can be any price at any moment, it just depends on what people are willing to trade for a bitcoin...however, economic theory tells us that as the price increases, making mining more profitable than other ventures, it will attract more investment in mining, which will increase the difficulty and cause the income generated from mining to tend towards cost of mining plus (originary) interest
  69 2011-08-27 00:48:35 <BitManiac> if github ultimately controls the Bitcoin client
  70 2011-08-27 00:48:40 <BitManiac> who controls github?
  71 2011-08-27 00:49:33 <BitManiac> lets say Paypal buys github and deletes all the bitcoin code, then what?
  72 2011-08-27 00:50:12 <log0s> BitManiac: someone puts the code up somewhere else
  73 2011-08-27 00:50:17 <BitManiac> ok
  74 2011-08-27 00:50:23 <BitManiac> next question
  75 2011-08-27 00:50:30 <BitManiac> lets say Github is fine and survives
  76 2011-08-27 00:50:43 <BitManiac> and Bitcoin becomes reallllly popular
  77 2011-08-27 00:50:46 <BitManiac> like super popular
  78 2011-08-27 00:50:49 <BitManiac> worth billions
  79 2011-08-27 00:50:54 <JFK911> BitManiac: do you work for paypal or BofA
  80 2011-08-27 00:51:04 <JFK911> im just wondering who's asking you to plan these things
  81 2011-08-27 00:51:05 <BitManiac> what happens when every dickhead in the world starts trying to amend the code
  82 2011-08-27 00:51:13 <BitManiac> nobodys asking me
  83 2011-08-27 00:51:17 <BitManiac> im just thinking aloud
  84 2011-08-27 00:51:19 <JFK911> sorry orders
  85 2011-08-27 00:51:43 * BitManiac creates a hat from some spare kitchen foil for JFK911
  86 2011-08-27 00:51:46 <BitManiac> here have this
  87 2011-08-27 00:52:12 <BitManiac> I mean
  88 2011-08-27 00:52:19 <BitManiac> can anyone just decide to release a new version?
  89 2011-08-27 00:52:20 <JFK911> already got a wok, its thicker
  90 2011-08-27 00:52:23 <BitManiac> or add in a new feature?
  91 2011-08-27 00:52:25 <JFK911> sure
  92 2011-08-27 00:52:35 <BitManiac> isn't that slightly insecure?
  93 2011-08-27 00:52:50 <zipperhead> BitManiac, any idea how git works dude?
  94 2011-08-27 00:52:57 <log0s> BitManiac: anyone can release their own version of bitcoin, but then they'd have to convince others to use their version
  95 2011-08-27 00:52:59 <JFK911> why?  its not like anyone can put it in bitcoin
  96 2011-08-27 00:53:02 <zipperhead> or are you just totally guessing here?
  97 2011-08-27 00:53:05 <BitManiac> vaguely
  98 2011-08-27 00:53:09 <zipperhead> way off.
  99 2011-08-27 00:53:26 <BitManiac> what happens then
 100 2011-08-27 00:53:37 <BitManiac> who gets to decide if a feature makes it in or out
 101 2011-08-27 00:53:45 <JFK911> look at the list of committers for the official bitcoin project
 102 2011-08-27 00:53:48 AStove has quit ()
 103 2011-08-27 00:53:55 <BitManiac> only those guys?
 104 2011-08-27 00:53:57 <zipperhead> like saying if I make a xeorx copy of a newspaper and start writing things on the paper does it affect the new?
 105 2011-08-27 00:54:00 <log0s> BitManiac: not anyone can just add code to the original bitcoin codebase...only one or maybe a few people have direct control over the current codebase, and any modifications to that codebase goes through that person (gavin andresen)
 106 2011-08-27 00:54:07 <zipperhead> news*
 107 2011-08-27 00:54:10 <BitManiac> ah ok
 108 2011-08-27 00:54:14 <JFK911> unless you want to go to say sourceforge and create a project called "bitcoin"
 109 2011-08-27 00:54:20 <zipperhead> git.
 110 2011-08-27 00:54:21 <JFK911> and then tell other people that's official
 111 2011-08-27 00:54:28 <zipperhead> github
 112 2011-08-27 00:54:34 <zipperhead> i use it all the time
 113 2011-08-27 00:54:54 <BitManiac> so what would happen if Gavin Andresen decided he didn't want to wotk on bitcoin any more
 114 2011-08-27 00:55:11 <JFK911> he won't do that because he loves his family.  we know where he lives.
 115 2011-08-27 00:55:15 coblee has quit (2!~chocobo@nat/google/x-nnplurqhgtelbkry|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 116 2011-08-27 00:55:18 <zipperhead> what would that matter... he didnt write it in the first place.
 117 2011-08-27 00:55:32 <BitManiac> but he has direct control of the project?
 118 2011-08-27 00:55:35 <zipperhead> it would be supported by others in the github group
 119 2011-08-27 00:55:43 <zipperhead> for now
 120 2011-08-27 00:55:54 <BitManiac> until when?
 121 2011-08-27 00:56:01 <JFK911> BitManiac: yes. that's why wells fargo generated this hurricane irene. it's a plan to get gavin.
 122 2011-08-27 00:56:13 <zipperhead> till a board is created
 123 2011-08-27 00:56:16 <JFK911> if you haven't noticed, it's headed straight for where he lives.
 124 2011-08-27 00:56:18 <BitManiac> im just thinking
 125 2011-08-27 00:56:19 <zipperhead> what is your concern?
 126 2011-08-27 00:56:24 <zipperhead> about what?
 127 2011-08-27 00:56:28 <BitManiac> well
 128 2011-08-27 00:56:31 <log0s> BitManiac: until he decides to stop or just can't do it anymore for whatever reason
 129 2011-08-27 00:56:37 <BitManiac> if bitcoin has so much power to destroy the status quo
 130 2011-08-27 00:56:42 <BitManiac> the status quo migth get mad
 131 2011-08-27 00:56:44 pixglen has joined
 132 2011-08-27 00:56:48 <BitManiac> also
 133 2011-08-27 00:57:06 <zipperhead> microsoft got mad at linux and look at what that did...
 134 2011-08-27 00:57:07 <BitManiac> if there is a huge amount to be gained by supplanting control of the bitcoin project
 135 2011-08-27 00:57:15 zyb_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 136 2011-08-27 00:57:18 <BitManiac> that's not quite the same though
 137 2011-08-27 00:57:26 <BitManiac> we're talking the banks here
 138 2011-08-27 00:57:36 <BitManiac> MS is a fluffy bunny compared to those guys
 139 2011-08-27 00:57:41 <zipperhead> banks invent money
 140 2011-08-27 00:58:25 random_cat has joined
 141 2011-08-27 00:58:25 <zipperhead> Dont believe me? read chapter 3 of this: http://usa-the-republic.com/banks/Patman_Primer_on_Money.pdf
 142 2011-08-27 00:58:37 <zipperhead> that from the congesssional record
 143 2011-08-27 00:58:42 <BitManiac> I just wonder can any one person or group of people ever be trusted with something as important as the bitcoin codebase
 144 2011-08-27 00:58:54 <zipperhead> moot point
 145 2011-08-27 00:59:01 <BitManiac> really?
 146 2011-08-27 00:59:14 <zipperhead> read above... circular arguement
 147 2011-08-27 00:59:25 <BitManiac> what argumnet
 148 2011-08-27 00:59:30 <BitManiac> I thought it was a question?
 149 2011-08-27 00:59:44 <zipperhead> do you own BTC?
 150 2011-08-27 00:59:54 <zipperhead> are you interested in buying it?
 151 2011-08-27 01:00:00 <BitManiac> what
 152 2011-08-27 01:00:01 <BitManiac> coins
 153 2011-08-27 01:00:04 <BitManiac> or the project as a whole?
 154 2011-08-27 01:00:09 <log0s> BitManiac: anyone can download the codebase (and lots of people have), so they can't restrict access to it...and if the current bitcoin maintainers start slipping malicious code into the codebase, it will likely get noticed, and people will create a different version of bitcoin without that malicious code and people would start using that
 155 2011-08-27 01:00:21 <BitManiac> sure sure
 156 2011-08-27 01:00:27 <BitManiac> I don't mean malicious per se
 157 2011-08-27 01:00:30 <BitManiac> I mean like
 158 2011-08-27 01:00:36 <BitManiac> when will it be version 1.0?
 159 2011-08-27 01:00:47 <zipperhead> is that a special number?
 160 2011-08-27 01:00:51 <BitManiac> who decides what a good minimum transaction fee is?
 161 2011-08-27 01:01:01 <BitManiac> who decides whether or not to modify the algo?
 162 2011-08-27 01:01:39 <BitManiac> these were pretty inconsiquential decisions 2 years ago
 163 2011-08-27 01:01:46 <jgarzik> BitManiac: the miners ultimately decide what is a good minimum transaction fee, though you need clients to relay in order to discover that
 164 2011-08-27 01:02:00 <BitManiac> but even now in the embryo stages of BTC each decision has quite a big impact
 165 2011-08-27 01:02:27 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 166 2011-08-27 01:02:36 <BitManiac> ps 1.0 is a special number yes
 167 2011-08-27 01:02:45 copumpkin has joined
 168 2011-08-27 01:02:54 <BitManiac> it's traditionally when the software is considered "done"
 169 2011-08-27 01:03:57 * log0s is afk
 170 2011-08-27 01:04:06 sytse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 171 2011-08-27 01:04:23 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 172 2011-08-27 01:05:01 <zipperhead> BitManiac, please go read http://usa-the-republic.com/banks/Patman_Primer_on_Money.pdf BE CRITICAL of the money system... Learn about why Bticoin was created in the first place... really
 173 2011-08-27 01:05:08 <BitManiac> shut up
 174 2011-08-27 01:05:15 <BitManiac> im not talking about the money system
 175 2011-08-27 01:05:20 agricocb has joined
 176 2011-08-27 01:05:22 <BitManiac> I know why Fiat currencies are flawed
 177 2011-08-27 01:05:28 <zipperhead> so what is your point?
 178 2011-08-27 01:05:35 <BitManiac> I want Bitcoin to succeed
 179 2011-08-27 01:05:45 fnord0 has joined
 180 2011-08-27 01:05:49 <zipperhead> ok does everone here
 181 2011-08-27 01:05:57 <BitManiac> I see a weakness in the fact that it's a social project
 182 2011-08-27 01:06:05 <BitManiac> a few people have influence over the code
 183 2011-08-27 01:06:19 <zipperhead> so do you code c++?
 184 2011-08-27 01:06:36 <BitManiac> who's to say those people have any idea about what the right decisions are?
 185 2011-08-27 01:07:00 <BitManiac> and they could be corrupted or worse
 186 2011-08-27 01:07:07 <BitManiac> "disappeared"
 187 2011-08-27 01:07:18 <BitManiac> by dark forces who see bitcoin as a threat
 188 2011-08-27 01:07:43 Maged has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 189 2011-08-27 01:07:59 RandomMinds has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 190 2011-08-27 01:08:20 <cjdelisle> http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/where-are-you-going-with-this-445x500.jpg
 191 2011-08-27 01:08:36 <BitManiac> lol im going nowhere
 192 2011-08-27 01:08:40 <zipperhead> there are lots of forces that dont want this to succeed ... but point noted.
 193 2011-08-27 01:08:40 <BitManiac> I just wanted to ask is all
 194 2011-08-27 01:08:48 <BitManiac> it's worth thinking about
 195 2011-08-27 01:08:54 <BitManiac> if bitcoin becomes a billion dollar market
 196 2011-08-27 01:08:59 <zipperhead> i'd agree.
 197 2011-08-27 01:09:02 <BitManiac> people are going to ask these questions again and again
 198 2011-08-27 01:09:10 <BitManiac> who watches the watchmen
 199 2011-08-27 01:09:27 <zipperhead> it needs a 'comittee' of sorts...
 200 2011-08-27 01:09:36 <zipperhead> something like that
 201 2011-08-27 01:09:43 <zipperhead> like they did with the GNU
 202 2011-08-27 01:09:46 <zipperhead> project
 203 2011-08-27 01:10:02 <BitManiac> ya
 204 2011-08-27 01:10:08 <BitManiac> you want to be something like the UN
 205 2011-08-27 01:10:16 <BitManiac> I dunno
 206 2011-08-27 01:10:17 <zipperhead> http://www.gnu.org/contact/gnu-advisory.html something like this
 207 2011-08-27 01:10:27 <BitManiac> or wikipedia
 208 2011-08-27 01:10:30 <BitManiac> but with less furries
 209 2011-08-27 01:11:04 <zipperhead> wikipedia has dark forces behind it.
 210 2011-08-27 01:11:10 <BitManiac> yeah
 211 2011-08-27 01:11:12 <BitManiac> furries!
 212 2011-08-27 01:11:16 <zipperhead> but I do see your point
 213 2011-08-27 01:11:19 <luke-jr> zipperhead: either a committee would have too much power, or be useless
 214 2011-08-27 01:11:21 <BitManiac> and wierdos with too much time on their hands
 215 2011-08-27 01:11:51 <zipperhead> luke-jr: so what is your suggestion?
 216 2011-08-27 01:12:04 <luke-jr> zipperhead: leave regulation to governments
 217 2011-08-27 01:12:16 <zipperhead> ah I see... Look where that got us.
 218 2011-08-27 01:12:56 <lfm> zipperhead: what do you want anarchy?
 219 2011-08-27 01:13:10 <luke-jr> zipperhead: the Fed is private afaik
 220 2011-08-27 01:13:15 <zipperhead> no, order out of chos.
 221 2011-08-27 01:13:24 <zipperhead> that is _their_ motto.
 222 2011-08-27 01:13:28 <zipperhead> is it not?
 223 2011-08-27 01:13:35 <lfm> huh?
 224 2011-08-27 01:14:27 <iddo> you cannot impose regulations on bitcoin anyway, how could the gov enforce it?
 225 2011-08-27 01:14:27 <lfm> oh you think the gvmnt cares about bitcoin
 226 2011-08-27 01:14:34 zeta-51b` has quit (Quit: bye)
 227 2011-08-27 01:14:42 <zipperhead> gov't aside
 228 2011-08-27 01:14:47 <luke-jr> iddo: government does not need to enforce regulations to make them
 229 2011-08-27 01:14:57 <zipperhead> I am talking about direction of BTC itself....
 230 2011-08-27 01:15:11 <zipperhead> who makes the decisions?
 231 2011-08-27 01:15:12 <luke-jr> zipperhead: I don't think it needs a direction.
 232 2011-08-27 01:15:13 <iddo> what good is it to have regulation that cannot be enforced?
 233 2011-08-27 01:15:22 <zipperhead> so is that  your opinion?
 234 2011-08-27 01:15:24 <luke-jr> iddo: people comply freely.
 235 2011-08-27 01:15:32 <zipperhead> well, it is a code base.
 236 2011-08-27 01:15:39 <luke-jr> zipperhead: no, there is no "one" codebase
 237 2011-08-27 01:15:43 <zipperhead> so someone has to make a decision
 238 2011-08-27 01:15:44 <zipperhead> no?
 239 2011-08-27 01:15:51 <zipperhead> no github?
 240 2011-08-27 01:15:52 <BitManiac> there should be a portion of every transaction fee that goes to the bitcoin government
 241 2011-08-27 01:15:55 <BitManiac> taxes
 242 2011-08-27 01:16:01 <iddo> luke-jr: they didn't comply with the order not to own gold...
 243 2011-08-27 01:16:04 <luke-jr> zipperhead: there are many codebases, one currently having a large marketshare.
 244 2011-08-27 01:16:05 <BitManiac> and those taxes are used to pay the bitcoin coders
 245 2011-08-27 01:16:16 <BitManiac> and regulate the bitcoin laws!
 246 2011-08-27 01:16:17 <lfm> bitcoin is just a buncha nerds thinking they are doing something more than what it is
 247 2011-08-27 01:16:23 <zipperhead> ok, so you mean branches of the orig repo?
 248 2011-08-27 01:16:23 <luke-jr> zipperhead: anyone can (and should) fork it
 249 2011-08-27 01:16:32 <zipperhead> i git it
 250 2011-08-27 01:16:37 <luke-jr> zipperhead: some are forks of that one, some are not
 251 2011-08-27 01:16:41 <zipperhead> i have been using git for 5 years
 252 2011-08-27 01:17:03 b4epoche_ has joined
 253 2011-08-27 01:17:05 <BitManiac> I think github is a particularly weak link in the chain if I'm honest
 254 2011-08-27 01:17:11 <zipperhead> i dont
 255 2011-08-27 01:17:15 <BitManiac> it's fine for now
 256 2011-08-27 01:17:15 <zipperhead> git is excelent
 257 2011-08-27 01:17:26 <zipperhead> nothing is better
 258 2011-08-27 01:17:37 <BitManiac> but I don't think it's fair to subject a small social coding site to the pressures of international financial markets
 259 2011-08-27 01:17:38 <zipperhead> IMO
 260 2011-08-27 01:17:42 zeta-51b has joined
 261 2011-08-27 01:18:23 <zipperhead> well, lets not forget this was the work of a few people (or a *single* man)
 262 2011-08-27 01:18:26 <zipperhead> originally
 263 2011-08-27 01:18:28 <BitManiac> yes
 264 2011-08-27 01:18:32 <BitManiac> but it's growing
 265 2011-08-27 01:18:33 <luke-jr> GitHub is a problem IMO, but not because it's a weak link
 266 2011-08-27 01:18:34 <BitManiac> exponentially
 267 2011-08-27 01:18:46 <luke-jr> I use Gitorious
 268 2011-08-27 01:18:51 <luke-jr> GitHub's TOS are not acceptable
 269 2011-08-27 01:18:55 <zipperhead> ok... iam speaking of git
 270 2011-08-27 01:19:00 <BitManiac> well indeed
 271 2011-08-27 01:19:08 <zipperhead> care not about the 3rd party stuff
 272 2011-08-27 01:19:10 <iddo> zipperhead: what do you mean by regulating the direction of BTC itself? the protocol is followed by all honest clients, unless there's a need for a fork it doesn't change
 273 2011-08-27 01:19:17 <zipperhead> you can use git by itself
 274 2011-08-27 01:19:18 <zipperhead> with dropbox...
 275 2011-08-27 01:19:20 <zipperhead> moot.
 276 2011-08-27 01:19:51 <luke-jr> iddo: committee or not, the protocol(s) are inevitably chosen by developers implementing them, and users voting with their usage
 277 2011-08-27 01:20:03 <zipperhead> I just think we need a website for bugs, suggestions, ideas.... etc...
 278 2011-08-27 01:20:05 <zipperhead> something
 279 2011-08-27 01:20:07 <zipperhead> to submit
 280 2011-08-27 01:20:14 <zipperhead> progressibr
 281 2011-08-27 01:20:17 <zipperhead> progressive
 282 2011-08-27 01:20:17 <luke-jr> zipperhead: I agree. I've had plans to make one for a while
 283 2011-08-27 01:20:26 <zipperhead> I am ALL in on BTC
 284 2011-08-27 01:20:33 <luke-jr> but I don't have the time to maintain it
 285 2011-08-27 01:20:35 <zipperhead> I have a vested interests
 286 2011-08-27 01:20:50 <iddo> but that already happened, no? the protocol remains constant, unless there's need for fork
 287 2011-08-27 01:20:55 <zipperhead> I might create tis
 288 2011-08-27 01:21:25 <zipperhead> I just want to see BTC succeed.
 289 2011-08-27 01:21:33 <zipperhead> honestly
 290 2011-08-27 01:21:34 theymos has joined
 291 2011-08-27 01:21:36 <luke-jr> my plan was to extend BitGit to project hosting, bug tracking, etc
 292 2011-08-27 01:21:44 <luke-jr> kinda like Launchpad, but for git
 293 2011-08-27 01:21:47 <luke-jr> and bitcoin-specific
 294 2011-08-27 01:21:48 <zipperhead> maybe a simple rails project
 295 2011-08-27 01:21:50 <zipperhead> on heroku
 296 2011-08-27 01:21:52 <luke-jr> ugh
 297 2011-08-27 01:21:56 <luke-jr> Ruby = fail
 298 2011-08-27 01:21:59 <BitManiac> will your vested intrests encourage you to try to increase the immediate price of a bitcoin though, or to facilitate bitcoin's use as a currency?
 299 2011-08-27 01:22:02 <zipperhead> ok dude
 300 2011-08-27 01:22:22 <zipperhead> you and me are not going to agree here.
 301 2011-08-27 01:23:02 <zipperhead> You're into Pythong?
 302 2011-08-27 01:23:07 <luke-jr> not really
 303 2011-08-27 01:23:11 <zipperhead> hehe
 304 2011-08-27 01:23:18 <zipperhead> just playing
 305 2011-08-27 01:23:22 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 306 2011-08-27 01:23:25 <luke-jr> I'd prefer Perl usually, but PHP seems simplest for web nonsense
 307 2011-08-27 01:23:29 <luke-jr> but anything's better than Ruby
 308 2011-08-27 01:23:43 <zipperhead> have you ever *used* ruby luke?
 309 2011-08-27 01:23:54 <luke-jr> no, don't want to ever install it
 310 2011-08-27 01:23:57 <phantomcircuit> ruby is nice if you're writting something once
 311 2011-08-27 01:24:01 <zipperhead> or just read about it?
 312 2011-08-27 01:24:09 <zipperhead> hehe
 313 2011-08-27 01:24:17 <luke-jr> zipperhead: I read the dependency/install size and decided I didn't want any more bloat
 314 2011-08-27 01:24:18 <zipperhead> man, you guys...
 315 2011-08-27 01:24:19 <luke-jr> :p
 316 2011-08-27 01:24:32 <phantomcircuit> the language changes so frequently and they deprecate things so often that nobody in their right mind would use it for anything that had to run for more than a month
 317 2011-08-27 01:24:43 <zipperhead> so what do u web-program in luke? Phpee?
 318 2011-08-27 01:24:47 <luke-jr> anyhow, I have a minimal BitGit up on http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin right now
 319 2011-08-27 01:24:52 <luke-jr> and bitgit.org registered, but not configured
 320 2011-08-27 01:25:01 <zipperhead> anyway...
 321 2011-08-27 01:25:02 <luke-jr> if someone wants to take it further, I can provide the hosting at least
 322 2011-08-27 01:25:06 <phantomcircuit> i wrote a ror program which has needed deprecation fixes once a month for about 6 months now
 323 2011-08-27 01:25:07 <phantomcircuit> so
 324 2011-08-27 01:25:09 <phantomcircuit> fuck that
 325 2011-08-27 01:25:13 <luke-jr> zipperhead: usually I don't web-program if I can avoid it :P
 326 2011-08-27 01:25:49 <zipperhead> right... so I am just saying.. back to the point.. .we need to be progressive. Lots of good ideas never getting heard...
 327 2011-08-27 01:26:03 <zipperhead> Bitcoin is in the wild
 328 2011-08-27 01:26:10 <zipperhead> lots of people using it
 329 2011-08-27 01:26:20 <luke-jr> IMO, Launchpad's bug tracker is nice-- let's you make bugs that affect multiple projects and stuff
 330 2011-08-27 01:26:20 <zipperhead> what are some of the features avg users what?
 331 2011-08-27 01:26:31 <zipperhead> avg users want*
 332 2011-08-27 01:26:32 <luke-jr> but it's Bazaar-affiliated
 333 2011-08-27 01:27:34 <luke-jr> zipperhead: faster confirmations?
 334 2011-08-27 01:27:44 <luke-jr> but that's pretty much impossible with Bitcoin 1.0
 335 2011-08-27 01:27:54 <zipperhead> just thinking.. because.. that was BitManiac point... An I have to agree. I mean, other stuff..
 336 2011-08-27 01:28:10 <zipperhead> It would be really interesting to see what the 'community' wants...
 337 2011-08-27 01:28:27 <zipperhead> that way we dont end up with ZipperHeadCoin (or SolidCoin) ...
 338 2011-08-27 01:28:32 <zipperhead> whatever
 339 2011-08-27 01:28:40 <luke-jr> I think rational numbers for amounts are pretty important
 340 2011-08-27 01:28:49 <luke-jr> at least in the backend/protocol
 341 2011-08-27 01:29:33 <b4epoche_> yea, luke-jr, what's up with you and the rational number stuff, re the mailing list?
 342 2011-08-27 01:29:34 <zipperhead> Then... new ideas could be elected... and worked on. Bitcoin is way too cool to fall behing
 343 2011-08-27 01:30:12 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: it provides a lot of future-proof flexibility at low cost
 344 2011-08-27 01:30:34 asher^ has joined
 345 2011-08-27 01:30:53 <lfm> luke-jris bitcoin 1.0 out yet? I thot it was still 0.3
 346 2011-08-27 01:31:24 <luke-jr> lfm: I'm talking about the block chain/network, not any specific client
 347 2011-08-27 01:31:39 <theymos> I could see expanding precision to 16 decimals, but more than that probably won't be useful for more than 50 years.
 348 2011-08-27 01:31:40 <zipperhead> If you ask me, bitcoin is at a curtial point right now. The USD/Bond crapping... Gold/Silver questionable... Bitcoin is a viable alt... and a lot of people see that.. but many are still wondering what BitManiac is wondering...
 349 2011-08-27 01:31:44 <luke-jr> theymos: decimal sucks
 350 2011-08-27 01:32:01 <zipperhead> who/what is in charge of everything...
 351 2011-08-27 01:32:11 vigilyn has joined
 352 2011-08-27 01:32:43 <zipperhead> Just saying... it gets asked to me all the time. I cansay Gavin.. is that true?
 353 2011-08-27 01:33:00 <luke-jr> zipperhead: nobody
 354 2011-08-27 01:33:02 <luke-jr> that's the point
 355 2011-08-27 01:33:12 <lfm> curtail point?
 356 2011-08-27 01:33:22 <zipperhead> sure
 357 2011-08-27 01:33:28 <luke-jr> if somebody was in charge, we just replace the Fed with someone else
 358 2011-08-27 01:33:34 <zipperhead> you dont think the world is looking at BTC?
 359 2011-08-27 01:33:40 <zipperhead> for the answer?
 360 2011-08-27 01:33:58 <zipperhead> or .... something not yet defined?
 361 2011-08-27 01:34:01 <luke-jr> Jeff seems to have taken a "spokesperson" role for Bitcoin for now
 362 2011-08-27 01:34:06 <zipperhead> what will enter...
 363 2011-08-27 01:34:27 <b4epoche_> lfm:  crucial point
 364 2011-08-27 01:34:29 <lfm> oh you think bitcoin is the answer to the economic problems? hehe, a new currency isnt what is needed.
 365 2011-08-27 01:34:31 <JFK911> its not who's in charge more like who's the ringleader
 366 2011-08-27 01:34:35 <JFK911> rules are made
 367 2011-08-27 01:34:38 <JFK911> the thing is not managed
 368 2011-08-27 01:34:56 <zipperhead> lfm: lets just ride the USD out?!!!! ?
 369 2011-08-27 01:35:05 <zipperhead> what are you saying?
 370 2011-08-27 01:35:26 <lfm> currencies are just a way of keeping score. they are not the whole game
 371 2011-08-27 01:35:31 <BitManiac> agreed
 372 2011-08-27 01:36:31 <BitManiac> bitcoin is a great payment mechanism, but it's not going to defeat the banks immediately
 373 2011-08-27 01:36:47 <BitManiac> that will take sweeping reforms from govt
 374 2011-08-27 01:36:57 sytse has joined
 375 2011-08-27 01:37:04 <BitManiac> it'll be there in waiting though
 376 2011-08-27 01:38:16 <lfm> no kidding, and if bitcoin does become a major currency, the banks will just start keeping score with bitcoins instead of dollars. they could switch over pretty darn quick if they felt like it and they would hardly need to change anything about the way they do business
 377 2011-08-27 01:38:48 <zipperhead> but then they couldnt function as a 'bank' eg, fraq reserve lending...et al.
 378 2011-08-27 01:38:57 <theymos> Well, they'd need to give only profitable loans.
 379 2011-08-27 01:39:00 <lfm> zipperhead sure they could
 380 2011-08-27 01:39:05 <iddo> but people still have to pay their taxes in dollars...
 381 2011-08-27 01:39:20 <zipperhead> create credit out of BTC?
 382 2011-08-27 01:39:27 <lfm> you can do fractional reserve lending with btc just as easy as $
 383 2011-08-27 01:39:59 <log0s> zipperhead: they did fractional reserve banking with gold
 384 2011-08-27 01:40:00 <zipperhead> well, the point is... that is what got us into trouble... another cigar though
 385 2011-08-27 01:40:24 <zipperhead> Well, they used paper for the gold... that is what created the $
 386 2011-08-27 01:40:35 <lfm> you cant get rid of banks and bankers that easy
 387 2011-08-27 01:40:36 <zipperhead> it was just an i-owe-u
 388 2011-08-27 01:40:47 <zipperhead> (for gold)
 389 2011-08-27 01:40:56 <theymos> You could do fractional reserve with physical gold, too.
 390 2011-08-27 01:41:08 <zipperhead> Was that not 'satoshi's'
 391 2011-08-27 01:41:15 <zipperhead> whole reason for btc?
 392 2011-08-27 01:41:18 <lfm> haha no
 393 2011-08-27 01:41:20 <theymos> No.
 394 2011-08-27 01:41:48 <zipperhead> So, you think he just wanted to create a cool program?
 395 2011-08-27 01:41:59 <zipperhead> like bittorrent
 396 2011-08-27 01:42:01 <luke-jr> …
 397 2011-08-27 01:42:07 <luke-jr> an alternative to gold
 398 2011-08-27 01:42:17 <lfm> well it is pretty cool as programs go dont you think
 399 2011-08-27 01:42:33 <theymos> I think he wanted to prove the concept, and maybe also take back some control from government.
 400 2011-08-27 01:42:34 <zipperhead> No.. it is a tool.
 401 2011-08-27 01:42:35 <iddo> but now the fed can increase the money supply in order to prevent the fractional reserves from deflating, they couldnt do it with gold or bitcoins
 402 2011-08-27 01:42:44 <zipperhead> as I see it
 403 2011-08-27 01:43:19 <cjdelisle> the difference between fractional reserve with btc or gold and fractional reserve with paper is with btc and gold, the banks which get in over their heads collapse individually, with paper everything gerts bailed out and bailed out until everything collapses all together in a hiperinflationary implosion.
 404 2011-08-27 01:43:24 <noagendamarket> yes they can they can introduce inflatacoin fork
 405 2011-08-27 01:43:30 <zipperhead> based off a problem we had with the central banks/ reserve system...
 406 2011-08-27 01:43:56 <lfm> zipperhead: is just an experiment is decentralized currency. not controlled by centralized authority. Not sure it will be able to reamin that way but is is a cool experimant anyway
 407 2011-08-27 01:44:25 <zipperhead> Oh, I am sure it will remain.
 408 2011-08-27 01:44:33 <zipperhead> no question about that
 409 2011-08-27 01:44:37 <b4epoche_> by the time all of this happens the politicians will be in control of the protocol change decisions anyway
 410 2011-08-27 01:44:59 <zipperhead> they dont control shit./
 411 2011-08-27 01:45:15 <lfm> the us gvmnt could take it over if it wanted to. remember the 50% rule? that is still in reach of many governments
 412 2011-08-27 01:45:25 <zipperhead> study 'exclusive legisilative authority' and written law to learn about that
 413 2011-08-27 01:45:28 taelot has joined
 414 2011-08-27 01:46:06 <zipperhead> might send your head into a tail spin...
 415 2011-08-27 01:46:16 <b4epoche_> no, they'll control the client that the majority of the idiots use, and hence control bitcoin
 416 2011-08-27 01:46:16 <theymos> lfm: Satoshi thought that governments would compete at that point, and the market among governments would still allow transactions most of the time.
 417 2011-08-27 01:46:52 <lfm> theymos: yup, thatd be nice, we can still hope
 418 2011-08-27 01:47:06 <iddo> theymos: at what point? now?
 419 2011-08-27 01:47:29 <lfm> iddo if one gvmnt tried to take over bitcoin
 420 2011-08-27 01:47:38 <iddo> ahh
 421 2011-08-27 01:47:39 <zipperhead> I just believe that we have something that is real, and it is up to us to make this work. Satoshi did his part... MtGOx, mybitcoin...have been hacked... Bitcoin HASNT...
 422 2011-08-27 01:47:45 <zipperhead> it is a GREAT system
 423 2011-08-27 01:47:58 <zipperhead> just need to work for the average joe.
 424 2011-08-27 01:48:11 <zipperhead> so many people want in
 425 2011-08-27 01:48:13 XXO1XX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 426 2011-08-27 01:48:13 <lfm> naw average joes are idiots
 427 2011-08-27 01:48:17 <luke-jr> lol
 428 2011-08-27 01:48:47 <zipperhead> Well why not just keep it command line?
 429 2011-08-27 01:48:47 <theymos> I think it would have been better if growth had not been so explosive. Then maybe the client and protocol could have been polished more.
 430 2011-08-27 01:48:52 <b4epoche_> average joes will use the system the government decides
 431 2011-08-27 01:48:54 <zipperhead> figgit
 432 2011-08-27 01:49:03 <luke-jr> theymos: true
 433 2011-08-27 01:49:41 <luke-jr> IMO that was ruined the moment people started exchanging other money for it
 434 2011-08-27 01:50:07 <zipperhead> Well, this is your hobby then right?
 435 2011-08-27 01:50:41 <luke-jr> for me, this is part of my job as a father ☺
 436 2011-08-27 01:50:46 <iddo> luke-jr: what's the alternative? you expect everyone who wants bitcoins to buy mining equipment?
 437 2011-08-27 01:50:54 <zipperhead> ok. point well taken
 438 2011-08-27 01:50:56 <luke-jr> iddo: testnet-style
 439 2011-08-27 01:51:14 <iddo> what do you mean?
 440 2011-08-27 01:51:14 <luke-jr> iddo: CPU mining and charity
 441 2011-08-27 01:51:41 <iddo> charity? like bitcoin faucet?
 442 2011-08-27 01:51:44 <theymos> Satoshi's original plan was to build exchanges and stores into the client using other network/crypto technology. This is why it had not command-line interface or RPC for a long time: services were not supposed to be independent from the client. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if this policy had not been changed.
 443 2011-08-27 01:51:45 <zipperhead> But I want to believe in this as a currency that we can use... I and about 100K others. And it can be. Why couldn't it?
 444 2011-08-27 01:51:56 <luke-jr> like when people come on here and say they want some coins, so someone sends them 10k
 445 2011-08-27 01:52:35 <luke-jr> zipperhead: it can be, but things might have been better if it had matured more under the hood first
 446 2011-08-27 01:52:48 <zipperhead> Ok... well
 447 2011-08-27 01:52:53 <zipperhead> what now?
 448 2011-08-27 01:52:58 <lfm> zipperhead: you CAN use it
 449 2011-08-27 01:53:11 <zipperhead> obviously.. I DO USE IT!
 450 2011-08-27 01:53:17 <zipperhead> An I love it
 451 2011-08-27 01:53:30 <iddo> theymos: exchanges into the client? how could you exchange dollars?
 452 2011-08-27 01:53:33 <zipperhead> just saying... we need to come together as a community
 453 2011-08-27 01:53:39 <lfm> so no need for the religious ferver
 454 2011-08-27 01:53:40 <zipperhead> new ideas.
 455 2011-08-27 01:53:57 <luke-jr> iddo: as in, webapps suck
 456 2011-08-27 01:54:06 <zipperhead> maybe I am going out of my realm here.. just saying.
 457 2011-08-27 01:54:26 <luke-jr> iddo: Bitcoin Market is a good example of an app that could be builtin and p2p
 458 2011-08-27 01:54:27 <lfm> iddo like builtin ebay style things
 459 2011-08-27 01:54:37 <theymos> iddo: It would match people up and track reputation, I suppose.
 460 2011-08-27 01:54:40 <luke-jr> or Bitcoin-OTC
 461 2011-08-27 01:55:17 <iddo> but how would you send dollars in technical sense? paypal? private wire transfers?
 462 2011-08-27 01:55:33 <luke-jr> iddo: Bitcoin Market is PayPal
 463 2011-08-27 01:56:15 <lfm> iddo dollars is just another category of things you can buy and sell using btc
 464 2011-08-27 01:56:54 <luke-jr> hmm
 465 2011-08-27 01:56:58 <luke-jr> ebay-like exchange would be interesting
 466 2011-08-27 01:57:23 <luke-jr> instead of picking a price, say "I got $5, goes to the highest bidder by tomorrow"
 467 2011-08-27 01:57:40 <luke-jr> or "I want 5 BTC, goes to the lowest bidder by next week"
 468 2011-08-27 01:57:51 <Diablo-D3> but
 469 2011-08-27 01:57:55 <Diablo-D3> thats what a stock market is
 470 2011-08-27 01:58:03 <Diablo-D3> you're all bidding concurrently for a limited pool of items
 471 2011-08-27 01:58:28 <luke-jr> but you have to guess what the highest bid will be
 472 2011-08-27 01:58:32 <lfm> Diablo-D3: ya but dollars could be just another thing you buy and sell on a ebay style system is his point
 473 2011-08-27 01:58:54 <luke-jr> and if you guess too high, you never sell
 474 2011-08-27 01:58:58 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yeah, but Im saying the auction never ends
 475 2011-08-27 01:59:07 <luke-jr> and if you guess too low, you don't get the best deal
 476 2011-08-27 01:59:15 <lfm> why not? it can end whenever you want
 477 2011-08-27 01:59:30 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no
 478 2011-08-27 01:59:38 <Diablo-D3> because there are always people buying and selling btc
 479 2011-08-27 01:59:55 <Diablo-D3> the ebay one off model is nonsensical for this
 480 2011-08-27 01:59:55 wolfspraul has joined
 481 2011-08-27 01:59:58 <lfm> I have this $5 bill here, I sell it to the highest bid I get before monday
 482 2011-08-27 02:00:27 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes, which means someone writes a program that takes all buys/sells and automates it
 483 2011-08-27 02:00:29 coderrr is now known as coderrr`brb
 484 2011-08-27 02:00:32 <Diablo-D3> thus we're back to exactly where we are
 485 2011-08-27 02:00:35 <lfm> Diablo-D3: fine
 486 2011-08-27 02:01:02 <asher^> using an ebay type system instead of current exchanges copies the only real annoying feature of bitcoin - having to wait for a transaction
 487 2011-08-27 02:01:38 <lfm> asher^ and you dont wait for your ebay deliveries?
 488 2011-08-27 02:02:08 <asher^> lfm i do, but id prefer not to. same with buying bitcoin
 489 2011-08-27 02:02:23 coderrr`brb is now known as coderrr
 490 2011-08-27 02:04:45 <lfm> asher^ we started this idea as being built into bitcoin client. a single interface could do it all is all Im saying, no need for radiccly different paradyme for each commodity
 491 2011-08-27 02:05:23 <lfm> sell $s just like you sell any other widget
 492 2011-08-27 02:06:33 <lfm> the client could also build in the escrow functions
 493 2011-08-27 02:07:44 BTCTrader is now known as BTC_away
 494 2011-08-27 02:07:51 RandomMinds has joined
 495 2011-08-27 02:08:47 marktraceur has joined
 496 2011-08-27 02:09:08 <lfm> as soon as you win a bid you have to put the btc in escrow. When you verify receipt, you release the escrow
 497 2011-08-27 02:10:13 <zipperhead> Interesting idea.
 498 2011-08-27 02:11:13 egecko has joined
 499 2011-08-27 02:11:21 <marktraceur> Hey, folks, I have a bit of a question. I'm using python and the python-bitcoinrpc library in a web app. We're running into conversion errors with Decimal objects, saying they aren't JSON-serializable. Has anyone figured out what the solution to that problem is? We tried converting to long ints, then back to floats, but then it gives a blank JSONRPCError.
 500 2011-08-27 02:11:56 <lfm> marktraceur: use doubles, not floats
 501 2011-08-27 02:12:05 <marktraceur> lfm: Will try, thanks
 502 2011-08-27 02:12:25 <luke-jr> marktraceur: and use ints internally
 503 2011-08-27 02:12:34 <lfm> marktraceur: and convert to 64 bit ints for any calculations
 504 2011-08-27 02:12:38 <luke-jr> lfm: Python only has one kind of floating-point
 505 2011-08-27 02:12:55 <lfm> oh ok
 506 2011-08-27 02:13:25 <marktraceur> lfm: You don't even know python! :P
 507 2011-08-27 02:13:35 <marktraceur> No, that obviously didn't work
 508 2011-08-27 02:13:41 <luke-jr> marktraceur: really, the Decimal nonsense is just overhead
 509 2011-08-27 02:13:42 <zipperhead> FFI: http://docs.python.org/library/decimal.html
 510 2011-08-27 02:14:38 <luke-jr> marktraceur: just pass all amounts from JSON-RPC into round(INPUT * 1e8), and when sending do OUTPUT / 1e8
 511 2011-08-27 02:14:43 carter_ has joined
 512 2011-08-27 02:15:18 <luke-jr> you can do int(round(INPUT*1e8)) for a tiny performance boost
 513 2011-08-27 02:15:28 <lfm> you still would need to be real carefull doing calculations on them
 514 2011-08-27 02:15:43 <carter_> does anyone know of a good article that explains how to write a miner?
 515 2011-08-27 02:15:44 <marktraceur> OK, more different question
 516 2011-08-27 02:15:56 <luke-jr> carter_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
 517 2011-08-27 02:16:13 <marktraceur> I'm passing a float into the sendtoaddress function, now, and it seems to work
 518 2011-08-27 02:16:22 <marktraceur> But then, like I said, it raises an empty JSONRPCError
 519 2011-08-27 02:16:52 * luke-jr never encountered that
 520 2011-08-27 02:17:00 vigilyn has left ("Leaving")
 521 2011-08-27 02:17:06 <luke-jr> marktraceur: it might be helpful to read over some of Spesmilo's code
 522 2011-08-27 02:18:04 <marktraceur> On it, will see what's what
 523 2011-08-27 02:19:52 <marktraceur> Hm, it doesn't seem that Spesmilo uses ServiceProxy?
 524 2011-08-27 02:20:27 zipperhead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 525 2011-08-27 02:20:33 <luke-jr> Spesmilo uses the standard JSON-RPC API
 526 2011-08-27 02:20:37 <luke-jr> which bitcoinrpc also supports
 527 2011-08-27 02:20:57 <marktraceur> Right
 528 2011-08-27 02:20:59 <luke-jr> oh, that IS ServiceProxy
 529 2011-08-27 02:21:03 <luke-jr> see core_interface.py
 530 2011-08-27 02:22:02 <marktraceur> Aha!
 531 2011-08-27 02:25:40 <coderrr> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-buyers-throw-good-money-after-bad-2011-08-26
 532 2011-08-27 02:26:18 BTCTrader has joined
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 534 2011-08-27 02:26:57 Xunie has joined
 535 2011-08-27 02:27:01 Xunie has quit (Changing host)
 536 2011-08-27 02:27:01 Xunie has joined
 537 2011-08-27 02:27:24 paul0 has joined
 538 2011-08-27 02:27:44 <marktraceur> luke-jr: Is it sending the amount time 1e8 to the server?
 539 2011-08-27 02:27:47 <marktraceur> times*
 540 2011-08-27 02:28:01 <luke-jr> marktraceur: no, you want to divide by 1e8 to send to the server
 541 2011-08-27 02:28:18 <luke-jr> marktraceur: core_interface works with a sanitized integer API, and converts it to float if necessary
 542 2011-08-27 02:28:20 <marktraceur> Ah, yes, I see, it's just spread out
 543 2011-08-27 02:28:36 <luke-jr> marktraceur: Spesmilo still has support for an old patch which makes JSON-RPC work in ints too
 544 2011-08-27 02:28:40 <luke-jr> auto-detected
 545 2011-08-27 02:28:41 <marktraceur> OK
 546 2011-08-27 02:28:45 paul0_ has joined
 547 2011-08-27 02:28:50 <marktraceur> But this looks pretty much like what I'm doing
 548 2011-08-27 02:29:02 paul0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 549 2011-08-27 02:29:03 paul0_ is now known as paul0
 550 2011-08-27 02:29:19 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, old patch we use that on britcoin and have a branch that works for all the latest tag release
 551 2011-08-27 02:29:58 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I think you mean strings, which is even more broken by design
 552 2011-08-27 02:30:42 <phantomcircuit> it's a lexical cast iirc
 553 2011-08-27 02:31:16 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 554 2011-08-27 02:31:47 <phantomcircuit> if it fails it throws an exception so it isn't safe for interfacing with broken scripts
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 559 2011-08-27 02:40:51 <marktraceur> luke-jr: FYI, I found the issue
 560 2011-08-27 02:40:56 <marktraceur> Must be a rounding error somewhere
 561 2011-08-27 02:41:06 <marktraceur> Because transferring 0.9 times the total balance works
 562 2011-08-27 02:41:11 <marktraceur> But not the total balance
 563 2011-08-27 02:42:50 <luke-jr> O.o
 564 2011-08-27 02:42:57 <luke-jr> maybe there's a fee?
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 570 2011-08-27 02:47:53 <carter_> anybody using https://github.com/jb55/node-bitcoin?
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 576 2011-08-27 02:50:14 <DiabolicalGamer> Good Evening Everyone
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 579 2011-08-27 02:59:05 <marktraceur> luke-jr: That might be it! I'll see.
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 588 2011-08-27 03:41:25 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 2aa651a01704 r34 / (2 files in 2 dirs): - disable updateCounters in prep for 0.2.9 release. Not ready for use yet.
 589 2011-08-27 03:41:25 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 7d74f813a8ba r35 / (3 files in 2 dirs): - update changelox for 0.2.9 release
 590 2011-08-27 03:41:25 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 4f67457d4d5e r36 / (4 files in 3 dirs): version update
 591 2011-08-27 03:41:26 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 787388e6598f r37 /.hgtags: Added tag 0.2.9 for changeset 4f67457d4d5e
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 605 2011-08-27 04:49:37 <Raccoon> does anyone here use the mtgox websocket feed?
 606 2011-08-27 04:50:45 <Raccoon> i'm curious how to read this data
 607 2011-08-27 04:50:48 <Raccoon> eg
 608 2011-08-27 04:50:55 <Raccoon> {"channel":"24e67e0d-1cad-4cc0-9e7a-f8523ef460fe","depth":{"currency":"USD","item":"BTC","price":"8.69997","price_int":"869997","type":1,"type_str":"ask","volume":"-20.98","volume_int":"-2098000000"},"op":"private","origin":"broadcast","private":"depth"}
 609 2011-08-27 04:51:20 <Raccoon> {"channel":"24e67e0d-1cad-4cc0-9e7a-f8523ef460fe","depth":{"currency":"USD","item":"BTC","price":"8.69997","price_int":"869997","type":1,"type_str":"ask","volume":"20.98","volume_int":"2098000000"},"op":"private","origin":"broadcast","private":"depth"}
 610 2011-08-27 04:51:53 <Raccoon> both are ASKs, but one has a negative volume change, and the other a positive
 611 2011-08-27 04:52:32 <Raccoon> is it possible to sell negative bitcoins now? :p
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 613 2011-08-27 04:55:04 <ThomasV> I sell negative bitcoins for positive dollars
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 621 2011-08-27 05:13:29 <CIA-101> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r682c586 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Make kernel arrays an option, default to off - http://git.io/8N-Vtw
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 642 2011-08-27 05:55:05 <CIA-101> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r0e65699 / src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl : Use bitselect on non-AMD platforms - http://git.io/rohAXQ
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 653 2011-08-27 06:45:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: booo master * rca58c65 / bin/bitcoinjs : bin/bitcoinjs: use absolute paths - http://git.io/Otm4kQ
 654 2011-08-27 06:45:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r9b8bc24 / bin/bitcoinjs :
 655 2011-08-27 06:45:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Merge pull request #28 from booo/master
 656 2011-08-27 06:45:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Use absolute paths when calling forever and vows. - http://git.io/gD6_rQ
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 667 2011-08-27 07:08:46 <FellowTraveler> Hi all.
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 673 2011-08-27 07:14:19 <SomeoneWeird> Hi FellowTraveler
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 682 2011-08-27 07:43:26 <cjdelisle> hey FellowTraveler, interesting project you are doing.
 683 2011-08-27 07:44:10 <FellowTraveler> hi cjdelisle, thanks. I just posted a couple videos here:  http://vimeo.com/28141679
 684 2011-08-27 07:44:45 paul0 has joined
 685 2011-08-27 07:46:56 <cjdelisle> can I get the flvs of those? I like to put stuff on disk
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 692 2011-08-27 08:07:15 <phantomcircuit> cjdelisle, you like to put stuff on disc as flash video o.O
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 694 2011-08-27 08:07:53 <cjdelisle> well... whatever format it happens to be in when I get it
 695 2011-08-27 08:07:57 <cjdelisle> usually .flv
 696 2011-08-27 08:08:11 <cjdelisle> aslong as mplayer can read it
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 698 2011-08-27 08:09:22 <cjdelisle> That's a really slick ui, it's kind of unfortunate that most people have a binary idea of trust.
 699 2011-08-27 08:10:10 <cjdelisle> Either they are willing to trust a bank with their money or they don't even want to hear the word "server".
 700 2011-08-27 08:11:06 <cjdelisle> For the trusting people, that kind of an interface would be a huge hit even if it was on a website. emailable chacks would be a big deal.
 701 2011-08-27 08:12:18 Lethe_ is now known as Lethe
 702 2011-08-27 08:17:26 <TuxBlackEdo> hey does my /etc/crontab look right on line 3 http://pastebin.com/75xpshiW
 703 2011-08-27 08:18:04 <TuxBlackEdo> should run every 6 hours right?
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 705 2011-08-27 08:19:21 <FellowTraveler> cjdelisle, OT is designed around the concept of "low trust servers".  Meaning the server shouldn't be ABLE to change your balance, or steal your bitcoins, or "get hacked" and cause any harm.
 706 2011-08-27 08:19:50 <FellowTraveler> Unfortunately, many in the bitcoin community still have not learned their lesson on that point — as evidence see recent events at MtGox and MyBitcoin.
 707 2011-08-27 08:19:52 <arcatan> TuxBlackEdo: yeah (i don't know if cron likes zero-prefixed minutes, though)
 708 2011-08-27 08:20:32 <cjdelisle> yeap
 709 2011-08-27 08:20:59 <cjdelisle> Do you think that the server could be replaced by some kind of blockchain?
 710 2011-08-27 08:21:06 <TuxBlackEdo> arcatan, it it bad to just run the crond.hourly every six hours instead? the only other bash script in there is mcelog.cron, is it ok to run that every six hours instead of every hour?
 711 2011-08-27 08:22:13 AStove has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 712 2011-08-27 08:22:26 <FellowTraveler> cjdelisle, a blockchain is a useful tool which runs p2p.  Chaumian blinding (untraceable cash) requires a server.  So the best I can do, while providing chaumian cash, is invent low-trust servers that are able to interact with the blockchain, yet that cannot individually steal people's bitcoins.
 713 2011-08-27 08:22:50 <cjdelisle> hmm indeed
 714 2011-08-27 08:22:55 AStove has joined
 715 2011-08-27 08:23:43 <FellowTraveler> I have written extensively on my wiki and on the bitcoin board about this idea of using voting pools between OT servers, in order to eliminate the current risk where any single server can just disappear with everyone's money.
 716 2011-08-27 08:24:05 <FellowTraveler> And yes, for that to work, requires interaction with the blockchain as well as the BTC script language.
 717 2011-08-27 08:24:14 <arcatan> TuxBlackEdo: mcelog checks for hardware errors. i've never used it, but i'm under the impression that it's supposed to be run even more often than hourly.
 718 2011-08-27 08:24:58 <arcatan> though, looking at its homepage, they recommend running it as a daemon and not as a cronjob
 719 2011-08-27 08:25:01 <arcatan> http://mcelog.org/index.html
 720 2011-08-27 08:26:06 <cjdelisle> I could ask a bunch of questions but I'm tired and I don't fully remember the stuff I read so I'll spare you for now ;)
 721 2011-08-27 08:26:23 datagutt has joined
 722 2011-08-27 08:26:53 <FellowTraveler> cjdelisle also, FYI, the test GUI is not what I'd call slick, it's just for testing. What's cool about OT isn't the ugly test GUI. It's the ricardian contracts, the chaumian blinding, the destruction of acct history, the markets, cheques, and other instruments, and someday soon, the bitcoin voting pools.
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 724 2011-08-27 08:28:26 <cjdelisle> Well by click I don't mean pretty, I mean there is a hell of a lot that a real person can do with that even if they do trust mtgox with their savings.
 725 2011-08-27 08:28:29 <cjdelisle> *slick
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 727 2011-08-27 08:28:50 <cjdelisle> (can and might reasonably want to)
 728 2011-08-27 08:30:34 <FellowTraveler> I prefer to use sites that I don't have to trust, instead of sites that I do have to trust
 729 2011-08-27 08:30:37 <FellowTraveler> when it comes to storing my money.
 730 2011-08-27 08:31:18 <FellowTraveler> What steps are MtGox actively taking to insure that I don't have to trust them, in order to safely store my BTC on their site?
 731 2011-08-27 08:31:32 <cjdelisle> Yup. That is a complex consept which a lot of people will likely have trouble grasping.
 732 2011-08-27 08:32:38 <FellowTraveler> I think once everyone's money disappears a few times, they will start to grasp it.
 733 2011-08-27 08:32:44 <FellowTraveler> I'll keep merrily working away in the meantime.
 734 2011-08-27 08:32:54 <cjdelisle> Once it's commonplace, it's obvious... "Hey, why don't you use OT, what do you want my money for so bad?" but until then it will be an uphill climb.
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 736 2011-08-27 08:36:31 <phantomcircuit> FellowTraveler, still haven't solved the issuer inflating the monetary base problem though?
 737 2011-08-27 08:37:03 <FellowTraveler> phantomcircuit, I believe the solution there is a real-time auditing protocol.
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 740 2011-08-27 08:37:37 <phantomcircuit> im too tired to think about how that would help
 741 2011-08-27 08:37:53 <FellowTraveler> Here's why:
 742 2011-08-27 08:38:21 <FellowTraveler> Because even if the server inflates currency (say, using a dummy account), it cannot SPEND that currency without allowing it to slip into the general population of accounts.
 743 2011-08-27 08:38:26 <phantomcircuit> http://www.c4l.co.uk/colocation/1u-colocation
 744 2011-08-27 08:38:26 <phantomcircuit> lol
 745 2011-08-27 08:38:27 <FellowTraveler> Once that happens, it will turn up on an audit.
 746 2011-08-27 08:38:30 <phantomcircuit> connection 10MB
 747 2011-08-27 08:38:34 <phantomcircuit> the hell does that mean
 748 2011-08-27 08:38:35 <FellowTraveler> Therefore, real-time auditing will instantly stop any such business.
 749 2011-08-27 08:39:04 <phantomcircuit> ok now how would you implement that?
 750 2011-08-27 08:39:35 <FellowTraveler> Basically that means for Bitcoin-based currencies on OT (where the "issuer" becomes a voting pool) that means the other servers in the pool must share info on transactions, in order to perform real-time auditing.
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 752 2011-08-27 08:40:13 <FellowTraveler> For normal (gold based) issuers, the OT server must share info with the Issuer to perform that audit.
 753 2011-08-27 08:40:31 <FellowTraveler> Either way, you either do it once per day, with rollback ability —— or you do it in REAL TIME, so no one can ever get out of whack.
 754 2011-08-27 08:40:44 <phantomcircuit> ok and now if the servers and issuer work in collusion...?
 755 2011-08-27 08:42:01 <FellowTraveler> 1) there is nothing to stop physical (gold) issuers from stealing, if they are not physically audited — it is the job of the market to decide which issuers they trust, based on auditing procedures, jurisdiction, etc.
 756 2011-08-27 08:42:30 <phantomcircuit> yeah that seems fairly obvious
 757 2011-08-27 08:42:33 <FellowTraveler> 2) For Bitcoin, the voting pool acts as the "issuer".  In THAT case, then you would need 9 out of 10 servers (or whatever the vote threshold is set to) to collude
 758 2011-08-27 08:42:44 <phantomcircuit> it is possible to make sure a bitcoin issuer has not yet stolen funds fairly trivially
 759 2011-08-27 08:42:59 <FellowTraveler> If there are, say, 50 servers in the pool, and 45 of them collude to steal from the pool, then YES they would be able to do that.
 760 2011-08-27 08:43:10 <phantomcircuit> i assume the servers need to be authorized by the issuer
 761 2011-08-27 08:43:19 <FellowTraveler> yes.
 762 2011-08-27 08:43:33 <FellowTraveler> But in today's world, on sites such as mybitcoin and mtgox, you only need ONE server to "collude" or "get hacked" and you are in a world of hurt.
 763 2011-08-27 08:43:39 <phantomcircuit> so that seems fairly trivial in reality for all the servers authorized by an issuer to be compromised
 764 2011-08-27 08:43:46 <FellowTraveler> I think that 45 out of 50 is an improvement.
 765 2011-08-27 08:43:57 <phantomcircuit> yes and no
 766 2011-08-27 08:44:23 <FellowTraveler> Just because 50 servers have had a currency issued, on all 50, by the same issuer, doesn't mean that hacking that issuer gives you power over those 50 servers.
 767 2011-08-27 08:44:28 <FellowTraveler> You'd still have to hack all 45 of them.
 768 2011-08-27 08:45:10 <FellowTraveler> And you'd still have to trust that 45 of them aren't secretly owned by the same entity.
 769 2011-08-27 08:45:27 <phantomcircuit> that last point was what i was thinking
 770 2011-08-27 08:45:46 <FellowTraveler> Use a large pool?
 771 2011-08-27 08:45:49 <FellowTraveler> That's the bitcoin solution it seems.
 772 2011-08-27 08:46:05 <FellowTraveler> 1000 servers.
 773 2011-08-27 08:46:06 <phantomcircuit> the thing i would be afraid of would be placing trust in something which can appear much more secure than it really is
 774 2011-08-27 08:46:13 <FellowTraveler> That is fair.
 775 2011-08-27 08:46:14 <phantomcircuit> at least with something like mtgox people understand their risk
 776 2011-08-27 08:46:43 <FellowTraveler> Perhaps people should only trust a pool where all the server owners are publicly known, in their jurisdictions
 777 2011-08-27 08:47:01 <FellowTraveler> instead of pools full of anonymous servers.
 778 2011-08-27 08:47:18 <phantomcircuit> it's much easier to take people than you'd think
 779 2011-08-27 08:47:29 <phantomcircuit> at least enough that it would stand up to internet police
 780 2011-08-27 08:48:35 <MrTiggr> :D
 781 2011-08-27 08:48:44 <Blitzboom> FellowTraveler: i remember you were the only socialist in the forum … has your ideological stance changed?
 782 2011-08-27 08:48:49 <Blitzboom> offtopic, i know :P
 783 2011-08-27 08:49:04 <Blitzboom> just wondering
 784 2011-08-27 08:49:07 <phantomcircuit> and i think i should mention that i have experience in faking people for hilarity
 785 2011-08-27 08:49:16 <FellowTraveler> BlitzBoom, you must be remembering some other individual, since I do not believe in group rights over individual rights.
 786 2011-08-27 08:49:32 <Blitzboom> aah, i did
 787 2011-08-27 08:50:52 <FellowTraveler> A group is only a collection of individuals.  If an action results in the violation of the rights of specific individuals, in return for some esoteric "group" benefit, I view that the same as splitting a baby in half.
 788 2011-08-27 08:51:13 <FellowTraveler> The purpose of OT is to better help protect people's rights.
 789 2011-08-27 08:51:18 <FellowTraveler> I do not trust banks to do so.
 790 2011-08-27 08:53:01 <Blitzboom> what does OT stand for?
 791 2011-08-27 08:53:26 <Blitzboom> also i agree with your approach
 792 2011-08-27 08:53:46 <Blitzboom> trust should not be required
 793 2011-08-27 08:53:55 <FellowTraveler> I am glad to see that cryptography and mathematics seem more suited to protecting individual freedoms than to protecting Rousseau's social contract, which perhaps is a sign of which is favored more by natural law.
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 795 2011-08-27 08:54:18 <FellowTraveler> BlitzBoom FYI OT stands for Open-Transactions, available here:   https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki
 796 2011-08-27 08:54:33 <Blitzboom> ah okay, i’ve heard of that
 797 2011-08-27 08:54:49 <Blitzboom> even saw that video yesterday or so
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 800 2011-08-27 09:00:38 <FellowTraveler> Seems like, if you just balance the size of the pool, so that the amount of money you could get by stealing it, is much smaller than what 45 server operators out of 50 are willing to lose in transaction fees by continued operation, that would help.
 801 2011-08-27 09:00:50 <FellowTraveler> They have to balance the benefit of stealing the pool, against the loss of all the transaction fees that were coming in.
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 808 2011-08-27 09:23:16 <Graet> FellowTraveler> Perhaps people should only trust a pool where all the server owners are publicly known, in their jurisdictions<FellowTraveler> instead of pools full of anonymous servers.  << i agree, i registered a company to run my pool and comply with local laws
 809 2011-08-27 09:24:22 <Graet> other btc businesses are doing it properly pools seem to be lagging in that field
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 813 2011-08-27 09:31:37 <upb> right, i look forward to this years reports of some companies..:p
 814 2011-08-27 09:32:22 <upb> the entity used for eur deposits of an exchange had a revenue of $100 last year
 815 2011-08-27 09:32:23 <Graet> interesting times for sure :)
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 839 2011-08-27 10:55:42 <lfm> interesting, bitcoin defines a year as 364.58 days
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 841 2011-08-27 10:58:12 <tcatm> lfm: ?
 842 2011-08-27 10:59:46 <lfm> 210000 blocks in four years, 144 blocks/day
 843 2011-08-27 11:00:18 <tcatm> does it say 21e4 blocks == 4 yours anywhere?
 844 2011-08-27 11:00:27 <lfm> roughly
 845 2011-08-27 11:00:41 <lfm> thats the period when it adjusts the rewards
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 865 2011-08-27 11:34:58 <fingster> anybody?
 866 2011-08-27 11:35:21 <tcatm> ;seen bluematt
 867 2011-08-27 11:35:40 <fingster> Bitcoin Express is submitted to app store, but rejected
 868 2011-08-27 11:35:58 <tcatm> ;;seen BlueMatt
 869 2011-08-27 11:35:59 <gribble> BlueMatt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 16 hours, 39 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <BlueMatt> luke-jr: this is coinbase for what, eligius blocks?
 870 2011-08-27 11:35:59 <fingster> Apple says law issue, not legal
 871 2011-08-27 11:36:47 <Eliel> what was bitcoin express for? bitcoin client for i-stuff?
 872 2011-08-27 11:36:55 <fingster> right
 873 2011-08-27 11:37:59 <fingster> we discussed bitcoin express for iOS here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=31362.0
 874 2011-08-27 11:38:18 <kinlo> fingster: they refused it because bitcoins are illegal?
 875 2011-08-27 11:38:26 <kinlo> (according to apple)
 876 2011-08-27 11:38:35 <fingster> illegal
 877 2011-08-27 11:38:38 <fingster> :(
 878 2011-08-27 11:39:01 <fingster> apple says: Aug 25, 2011 04:58 PM. From Apple. 22.1  We found that your app contains content related to bitcoins - or facilitates, enables, or encourages an activity - that is not legal in all the locations in which the app is available, which is not in compliance with the App Store Review Guidelines.
 879 2011-08-27 11:40:23 <fingster> Why? Any law in US forbids bitcoin?
 880 2011-08-27 11:41:42 <fingster> Is it illegal in Japan or elsewhere?
 881 2011-08-27 11:42:13 <Eliel> maybe china?
 882 2011-08-27 11:42:53 <kinlo> resubmit with only 1 country?
 883 2011-08-27 11:43:12 <fingster> China forbids bitcoin
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 885 2011-08-27 11:43:31 <tcatm> try germany as a country. it's legal there
 886 2011-08-27 11:43:56 <fingster> OK! Thanks, tcatm
 887 2011-08-27 11:46:03 <kinlo> there are apparently many bitcoin apps in the appstore
 888 2011-08-27 11:46:18 <pigeons> Source? (I believe you) -> < fingster> China forbids bitcoin
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 890 2011-08-27 11:47:58 <jtaylor> the asicminer scam site claimed that ^^
 891 2011-08-27 11:48:26 <Eliel> it was a scam afterall then? the asicminer thing.
 892 2011-08-27 11:48:59 <jtaylor> the site does not exist anymore I think
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 894 2011-08-27 11:49:53 <fingster> I'm from China
 895 2011-08-27 11:50:14 <fingster> That maybe another rejection reason
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 898 2011-08-27 11:51:11 <pigeons> hmm so you can't have foursquare on apple appstore? because "sodomy" is illegal in north carolina
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 975 2011-08-27 15:53:47 <pigeons> rpc.cpp is getting pretty big
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 978 2011-08-27 15:59:31 <Lopuz> refactor!
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1028 2011-08-27 18:01:58 <Hel> Hello
1029 2011-08-27 18:02:16 <Hel> Can some one help me?
1030 2011-08-27 18:08:29 <upb> nope, ita impossible without a question
1031 2011-08-27 18:09:18 <b4epoche_> with no question, RTFM
1032 2011-08-27 18:10:03 <Hel> I want to buy bitcoins
1033 2011-08-27 18:11:20 <marf_away> mtgox.com
1034 2011-08-27 18:12:36 davex__ has joined
1035 2011-08-27 18:12:37 <Hel> Thanks you
1036 2011-08-27 18:12:44 fpgaminer has joined
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1038 2011-08-27 18:15:39 <Hel> But marf_away
1039 2011-08-27 18:15:51 <Hel> i cant buy by credit card
1040 2011-08-27 18:15:57 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1041 2011-08-27 18:16:05 <marf_away> hmm join bitcoin-otc
1042 2011-08-27 18:16:12 <marf_away> #bitcoin-otc
1043 2011-08-27 18:16:15 <marf_away> ask there
1044 2011-08-27 18:16:17 hahuang65 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1045 2011-08-27 18:17:22 <Hel> Ok
1046 2011-08-27 18:20:12 <Hel> I cant
1047 2011-08-27 18:20:13 <Hel> talk
1048 2011-08-27 18:20:17 <Hel> on this channel
1049 2011-08-27 18:20:50 <copumpkin> that doesn't mean you should ask in here
1050 2011-08-27 18:20:54 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1051 2011-08-27 18:21:07 <copumpkin> <nolyc> I tried to buy a Renault in a Renault shop, but there were no salesmen available, so I came into this Ford shop. Why won't you sell me a Renault?!
1052 2011-08-27 18:21:20 xacti has joined
1053 2011-08-27 18:21:52 <copumpkin> but to join #bitcoin-otc, you need to join #bitcoin-otc-foyer first and read the topic there
1054 2011-08-27 18:22:06 <Hel> Ok
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1105 2011-08-27 20:53:21 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
1106 2011-08-27 20:53:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 142843 | Current Difficulty: 1805700.8361937 | Next Difficulty At Block: 143135 | Next Difficulty In: 292 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 17 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1821015.98188747
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1111 2011-08-27 21:07:37 <denisx> yeah, and my pool found that last block after 4878467 shares
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1115 2011-08-27 21:11:47 <Folklore> I don't wish to be logged, thanks
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1117 2011-08-27 21:12:14 <cacheson> Folklore: then go to another channel
1118 2011-08-27 21:12:49 <Folklore> no i'd rather just use my opt out clause, see above
1119 2011-08-27 21:13:03 <cacheson> Folklore: good luck with that
1120 2011-08-27 21:13:06 <cjdelisle> to opt out, type:  /server logging off
1121 2011-08-27 21:14:21 <cacheson> Folklore: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/08/27/5
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1123 2011-08-27 21:15:35 <Folklore> yeah they need to fix that, and purge my entries, see above where I said I wanted not to be logged?
1124 2011-08-27 21:16:00 <cacheson> Folklore: again, good luck with that
1125 2011-08-27 21:16:16 <Folklore> thanks sir, good luck to you as well
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1127 2011-08-27 21:20:00 <iocor> http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/992b8b323450a510775cb1e95bdb411b7c7ca1ffc1d388063ad3d380bfe269be can someone explain to me why this transaction is missing the pubkey from the in scriptSig?
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1131 2011-08-27 21:21:40 <cjdelisle> because the one which it input from includes it
1132 2011-08-27 21:22:00 <cjdelisle> here's the previous transaction:
1133 2011-08-27 21:22:01 <cjdelisle> http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/f4b27c28a4bbe734d88f55f59c1bd809bfe4a7ea38ff5ecb5d3e7c0c0c73699c
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1136 2011-08-27 21:22:23 <cjdelisle> it includes the key so the claiming tx doesn't need it
1137 2011-08-27 21:23:20 <iocor> ok
1138 2011-08-27 21:23:33 <iocor> so claiming transactions don't contain the public keys, instead you need the previous transaction?
1139 2011-08-27 21:23:51 welterde has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1140 2011-08-27 21:23:55 <cjdelisle> you can read up on scripting
1141 2011-08-27 21:24:21 <cjdelisle> really all that needs to happen is you supply information which makes the sigScript evaluate in the scripting engine to "true".
1142 2011-08-27 21:24:44 <cjdelisle> and the sigScript is from a transaction which was paid to you
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1151 2011-08-27 21:56:10 <UukGoblin> is there a good page describing in simple terms why solidcoin is worse than bitcoin?
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1160 2011-08-27 22:02:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * reb0fa6e5df3b cgminer/main.c: Copy cgminer path, not cat it.
1161 2011-08-27 22:03:37 <cacheson> UukGoblin: not that I know of.  something with an opinion about the 3 minute vs 10 minute blocks from a knowledgeable dev would be a good start
1162 2011-08-27 22:04:37 <jtaylor> 3 minute blocks have the advantage that getting the required confirmation level has lower variance
1163 2011-08-27 22:05:13 <jtaylor> fixed transaction fees are probably bad, will lead to people embedding lots of data in the blockchain for almost nothing
1164 2011-08-27 22:05:17 <UukGoblin> well there's also the 10%-up, 400%-down difficulty updates as "pump-n-dump prevention"
1165 2011-08-27 22:05:24 <cacheson> jtaylor: true, but I suspect it won't scale well
1166 2011-08-27 22:05:29 <jtaylor> I think thats stupid
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1168 2011-08-27 22:05:47 <jtaylor> difficulty adjustmend needs fixing in bitcoin but asynmmetric seems wrong
1169 2011-08-27 22:05:53 <UukGoblin> jtaylor, well fixed transaction fees are actually preventing people from putting stuff in... on bitcoin they can put it for free
1170 2011-08-27 22:05:59 WakiMiko has joined
1171 2011-08-27 22:06:08 <jtaylor> bitocin you pay more the larger the transaction
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1173 2011-08-27 22:06:13 <jtaylor> = more data, more fee
1174 2011-08-27 22:06:19 <jtaylor> I think
1175 2011-08-27 22:06:47 <cacheson> UukGoblin: gmaxwell mentioned something about retargetting difficulty too often allowing miners to pull off clock skew shennanigans
1176 2011-08-27 22:07:07 <cacheson> I think it was on the dev mailing list actually
1177 2011-08-27 22:07:31 <cacheson> though it was in response to any idea to just recalculate difficulty every block, so maybe it doesn't apply to SC
1178 2011-08-27 22:07:48 <UukGoblin> cacheson, mhm, would be nice to have it all gathered up because people are getting a false sense of solidness with this solidcoin
1179 2011-08-27 22:08:04 <cacheson> UukGoblin: definitely
1180 2011-08-27 22:09:43 <iddo> i bet most people treat sc as pump and dump, they just wanted to be early adopters
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1182 2011-08-27 22:10:07 <cacheson> iddo: most likely, though it has gone farther than any of the previous schemes
1183 2011-08-27 22:10:16 <jtaylor> the writer of the faq page for sure does not understand bitcoin
1184 2011-08-27 22:10:17 <iddo> probably the author of sc pumped the price on the exchange at start, by selling his bitcoins
1185 2011-08-27 22:10:39 <sytse> I wonder why people think they can take bitcoin on for world domination
1186 2011-08-27 22:10:40 <cacheson> iddo: I think it's got more to do with the bounties
1187 2011-08-27 22:10:49 <sytse> especially cheap ripoffs like solidcoin
1188 2011-08-27 22:10:54 <iddo> i saw this thread for example, it's treated as pump and dump: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/jppkn/i_made_4_btc_on_a_5770_last_night_mining_these/
1189 2011-08-27 22:11:00 <cacheson> iddo: seems to have been set up better than the ixcoin bounties were
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1193 2011-08-27 22:12:58 <iddo> bounties are paid as sc? so people want it while the price is still pumped
1194 2011-08-27 22:13:52 <cacheson> iddo: yeah.  the "blog/tweet about this" bounties seem to have have had a big effect though
1195 2011-08-27 22:14:03 <cacheson> also, I don't remember if ixcoin had any bounties for regular merchants
1196 2011-08-27 22:14:29 <iddo> people will eventually realize that the so-called advantages are actually drawbacks
1197 2011-08-27 22:14:49 <jtaylor> I think sccoin is valuable as an experiment in shorter block times
1198 2011-08-27 22:15:02 <jtaylor> which do have an advantage, (but not the one said on the site)
1199 2011-08-27 22:15:04 <iddo> the best way to demonstrate to people that sc is pump and dump is to start some sc2 :)
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1202 2011-08-27 22:17:18 <makomk> iddo: sc2 is on my TODO list actually ;-)
1203 2011-08-27 22:17:25 <iddo> i also think that sc is valuable, to get people to realize that nmc/ix/sc don't add anything compared to btc
1204 2011-08-27 22:17:52 <cacheson> makomk: gooncoin?  ;)
1205 2011-08-27 22:18:42 <iddo> makomk: try 1min confirmations, that will get the sc author to sweat a little about explaining the drawbacks of fast blocks
1206 2011-08-27 22:19:21 robotarmy has joined
1207 2011-08-27 22:19:31 <makomk> cacheson: nope, I'm laving that to some other goon
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1210 2011-08-27 22:20:56 <iddo> fast block probably expose the protocol to sybil attacks by isolating nodes, his faq about broadcasr reaching all nodes in few seconds is regular/average case, the interesting question is to analyse worst-case attacks
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1212 2011-08-27 22:22:05 <b4epoche_> the problem with this is that no one will attack it until it's worth their time...
1213 2011-08-27 22:22:24 <makomk> Yeah, that's always the problem...
1214 2011-08-27 22:23:19 <iddo> anyone knows if double-spending attacks were ever tried with bitcoin ?
1215 2011-08-27 22:23:40 <jtaylor> with mybitcoin apparently
1216 2011-08-27 22:23:45 <jtaylor> they only required one confirmation
1217 2011-08-27 22:23:51 <jtaylor> cost them 75.000 btc
1218 2011-08-27 22:23:53 <sytse> some attacks with bitcoin were successful right?
1219 2011-08-27 22:24:10 <jtaylor> but not sure if that was really a double spend or some other bug
1220 2011-08-27 22:24:14 <jtaylor> in their site
1221 2011-08-27 22:24:23 <sytse> requiring a patched bitcoin being released immediately to get the 'hacked' block chain out of the current block chain
1222 2011-08-27 22:24:33 <cacheson> jtaylor: did they even require one?  when I tested out their merchant interface, it seemed instantaneous
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1224 2011-08-27 22:24:44 <jtaylor> don't know, never used them
1225 2011-08-27 22:24:51 <jtaylor> I just read one cofirmation in their press release
1226 2011-08-27 22:24:57 <iddo> jtaylor: i think most people are skeptical of the official mybitcoin story, and i don't think any evidence was ever presented?
1227 2011-08-27 22:25:01 <b4epoche_> cacheson:  there was speculation they were accepting zero confirms
1228 2011-08-27 22:25:38 <sytse> iddo: I was just about to say that..
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1230 2011-08-27 22:26:25 <sytse> I'm inclined to believe a) that the 'official' mybitcoin story was actually the official mybitcoin story, and b) that that story was part of the truth
1231 2011-08-27 22:26:25 <iddo> the occam razor explaination for mybitcoin is that the owner just took the bitcoins and ran away:)
1232 2011-08-27 22:26:44 <sytse> but not everyone believes that, and they're right not to
1233 2011-08-27 22:26:49 <sytse> iddo: \o/
1234 2011-08-27 22:27:25 <sytse> occam's razor ftw
1235 2011-08-27 22:27:31 <jtaylor> thereis another low: never attribute to malice which can be equally explained by incomptence
1236 2011-08-27 22:27:47 <jtaylor> Hanlon's razor
1237 2011-08-27 22:28:34 <makomk> Hanlon obviously never spent much time in the Bitcoin community
1238 2011-08-27 22:28:43 <sytse> anyway, occam's razor has been put to the test and failed in the LHC
1239 2011-08-27 22:28:43 <sytse> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14680570
1240 2011-08-27 22:28:45 <sytse> ;-)
1241 2011-08-27 22:29:45 <sytse> jtaylor: ah, that's called Hanlon's razor... cool
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1243 2011-08-27 22:30:13 <sytse> I've always thought that way..
1244 2011-08-27 22:30:18 <sytse> conspiracy theorists are idiots
1245 2011-08-27 22:30:56 <sytse> which is not to say there is malice in conspiracy theorists; there usually isn't, by Hanlon's razor :D
1246 2011-08-27 22:31:13 <jtaylor> that cern news is exagerating
1247 2011-08-27 22:31:33 <jtaylor> there are tons of susy models to be tested
1248 2011-08-27 22:32:11 <jtaylor> interesting that the result comes from lhc-b, the experiment which is expected to be the least important ^^
1249 2011-08-27 22:32:56 <sytse> of course it's exaggerated
1250 2011-08-27 22:33:01 <sytse> it's the bbc
1251 2011-08-27 22:33:03 <sytse> it's journalism
1252 2011-08-27 22:33:05 <sytse> :P
1253 2011-08-27 22:40:14 <cjdelisle> People worry about the LHC creating a black hole
1254 2011-08-27 22:40:17 <cjdelisle> It already did
1255 2011-08-27 22:40:26 <cjdelisle> and it valuumed up all of the money in Europe
1256 2011-08-27 22:40:32 <noagendamarket> lol
1257 2011-08-27 22:40:38 * noagendamarket head explodes
1258 2011-08-27 22:42:10 <jtaylor> its cheap compared to the money punped into banks
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1261 2011-08-27 22:42:33 <sytse> cjdelisle: if the LHC creates a black hole
1262 2011-08-27 22:42:35 * noagendamarket can hear the sound of sucking
1263 2011-08-27 22:42:39 <sytse> the creators of this universe will fix it
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1265 2011-08-27 22:42:48 <sytse> just like mtgox did when somebody put a black hole in mtgox
1266 2011-08-27 22:42:49 <sytse> ;-)
1267 2011-08-27 22:42:55 <noagendamarket> lawl
1268 2011-08-27 22:43:10 <noagendamarket> thats where all the bitcoins went
1269 2011-08-27 22:43:16 <jtaylor> creating a black hole would be awesome btw, it would be proof for more than 3 space dimensions
1270 2011-08-27 22:43:19 <noagendamarket> from mybitcoin
1271 2011-08-27 22:43:22 <sytse> just turn back the clock a little and everything will be okay, as long as the security leak is fixed =]
1272 2011-08-27 22:43:47 <cjdelisle> in 10,000 years people are gonna be studying that white elephand like we study the pyramids
1273 2011-08-27 22:43:50 welterde has joined
1274 2011-08-27 22:43:59 <noagendamarket> security by time travel isnt a good plan
1275 2011-08-27 22:44:24 bk128 has joined
1276 2011-08-27 22:44:38 <sytse> noagendamarket: not time travel
1277 2011-08-27 22:44:48 <sytse> just cancelling the universe transactions for the past few minutes
1278 2011-08-27 22:44:52 <sytse> and starting the machine up again
1279 2011-08-27 22:45:07 <noagendamarket> forking the universe ?
1280 2011-08-27 22:45:25 <cjdelisle> It's like that movie total recall where there was some elaborate machine left over from some alian race on mars. Everyone assumes when they find an elaborate machine that it does something really important.
1281 2011-08-27 22:45:31 <noagendamarket> that needs the hash power only a black hole can provide
1282 2011-08-27 22:46:06 <cjdelisle> That's the folly of people's minds, noone ever considers the possiblity that the machine doesn't work, and it never did, it just makes sparks because the people who built it were idiots.
1283 2011-08-27 22:46:17 <jtaylor> ^^
1284 2011-08-27 22:46:39 <sytse> cjdelisle: which is kind of funny, since the most elaborate machine on the planet (the internet) is mainly used for porn ;-)
1285 2011-08-27 22:47:20 <b4epoche_> mating rituals
1286 2011-08-27 22:47:25 <cjdelisle> So in a way, it's a gigantic trolling operation and the victims are the alians who come here in a million years and study the long lost race.
1287 2011-08-27 22:48:18 <cjdelisle> And try feverishly to get the super machine to do what it was originally intended to do, not realizing that it was originally intended to troll alchiologists.
1288 2011-08-27 22:48:35 <cjdelisle> *archiologists
1289 2011-08-27 22:48:55 WakiMiko_ has joined
1290 2011-08-27 22:49:01 <b4epoche_> that would have been a great alternate ending for Contact
1291 2011-08-27 22:49:16 <cjdelisle> hahaha YES
1292 2011-08-27 22:49:33 Optimo_ has quit ()
1293 2011-08-27 22:51:06 <b4epoche_> directions to build a great amusement park ride
1294 2011-08-27 22:51:07 welterde has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1295 2011-08-27 22:51:14 Optimo has joined
1296 2011-08-27 22:51:24 <sytse> hmmmm... didn't know minority report was based on total recall 2
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1299 2011-08-27 22:53:02 <sytse> whut
1300 2011-08-27 22:53:16 <sytse> a total recall remake is set to go to the theater in 2011
1301 2011-08-27 22:53:18 <sytse> *2012
1302 2011-08-27 22:53:34 <jtaylor> I hope not ._.
1303 2011-08-27 22:53:47 <sytse> it is.
1304 2011-08-27 22:53:55 WakiMiko has joined
1305 2011-08-27 22:53:56 <jtaylor> :(
1306 2011-08-27 22:54:01 <sytse> with colin farrell as douglas quaid
1307 2011-08-27 22:54:09 <noagendamarket> wat
1308 2011-08-27 22:54:26 <cjdelisle> aww ya mean they won't have old arnold getting senile and saying I can't totally recall
1309 2011-08-27 22:54:35 <noagendamarket> lawl
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1311 2011-08-27 22:55:16 <sytse> maybe we're actually all in arnold's mind
1312 2011-08-27 22:55:28 <sytse> and the world will come to an end when he dies
1313 2011-08-27 22:55:41 <sytse> ever thought about that? :P
1314 2011-08-27 22:56:40 <cjdelisle> make sure to remind soneone at least once a day that he got his start in the movie business by packing fudge
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1323 2011-08-27 23:11:38 <cypherpunk01> actually you are all in my mind, thats why I can never die.
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