1 2011-09-01 00:00:02 <BlueMatt> like maybe 5 is good
   2 2011-09-01 00:00:08 <BlueMatt> if you even need that
   3 2011-09-01 00:01:03 * phantomcircuit goes back to user migration
   4 2011-09-01 00:01:05 <tcatm> BlueMatt: how CPU intense is it? I already have a bitcoin node, lots of free diskspace and unmetered bw
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   6 2011-09-01 00:01:23 <gjs278> can you max the line 24/7
   7 2011-09-01 00:01:27 <gjs278> that unlimited of bw
   8 2011-09-01 00:01:31 <tcatm> gjs278: yes
   9 2011-09-01 00:01:38 <BlueMatt> tcatm: then its just a script which stops bitcoind, tars blk*, gpg signs it, uploads it
  10 2011-09-01 00:02:00 <BlueMatt> but the uploads are getting bigger and bigger, Im just saying unmetered bc bitcoin uses a bit and then the uploads can be big
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  14 2011-09-01 00:02:34 <tcatm> bitcoind is already running on that server so it would be just cp blk* /somewhere else
  15 2011-09-01 00:03:02 <lfm> scp?
  16 2011-09-01 00:03:03 <BlueMatt> well it would always be better to stop bitcoind first
  17 2011-09-01 00:03:22 <BlueMatt> or patch bitcoin to stop writing for a minute
  18 2011-09-01 00:03:44 <tcatm> or run a 2nd instance
  19 2011-09-01 00:03:46 <lfm> backupblk like backupwallet ?
  20 2011-09-01 00:03:55 <gjs278> bitcoind freeze
  21 2011-09-01 00:04:05 <BlueMatt> tcatm: thats what I used to do, second instance for a couple minutes
  22 2011-09-01 00:04:20 <tcatm> so does the script already exist?
  23 2011-09-01 00:04:35 <BlueMatt> I think i lost it...but it might take like...1 minute to write?
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  25 2011-09-01 00:07:07 <BlueMatt> Im just out of mem on mine, and bw is tight...
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  37 2011-09-01 00:29:50 <tcatm> ;;later tell BlueMatt http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/ should be updated daily, missing signing for now
  38 2011-09-01 00:29:50 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  91 2011-09-01 01:49:20 <lfm> surikator  random string can't be compressed
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  95 2011-09-01 01:56:02 <luke-jr> lfm: sometimes it can!
  96 2011-09-01 01:56:11 <luke-jr> lfm: like 1 MB of nulls
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  99 2011-09-01 01:57:31 <ByteCoin> It's ill-defined to talk about random strings. You can only talk about random sources.
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 109 2011-09-01 02:24:13 <joepie91> lfm: a random string can randomly look like a non-random string.
 110 2011-09-01 02:24:14 <joepie91> :)
 111 2011-09-01 02:25:41 <ByteCoin> jopie91: Define "random" in such a way that you can tell the difference and collect your Fields medal.
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 146 2011-09-01 03:37:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8496534168c2 cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Add start and stop time scheduling for regular time of day running or once off start/stop options.
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 176 2011-09-01 04:16:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: my test harness is trying to auto-poll your first fetch URL, and hanging:
 177 2011-09-01 04:16:18 <jgarzik> git pull git://scm.dashjr.org/var/scmroot/git/bitcoin/pushpool/luke-jr.git state_reason_split
 178 2011-09-01 04:16:31 <jgarzik> luke-jr: er, auto-pull
 179 2011-09-01 04:17:30 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it's sta*l*e_reason_split
 180 2011-09-01 04:17:55 <luke-jr> no idea why it's hanging though-- should be an immediate fatal error
 181 2011-09-01 04:18:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * r159bc0b61def Phoenix-Miner-personal/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
 182 2011-09-01 04:18:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Retry failed work submission until work would be stale (assumed to be 120
 183 2011-09-01 04:18:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: seconds after work was originally received) -- all WorkUnits now have an
 184 2011-09-01 04:18:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: expiration time; removed maxErrCount value and --expiration command-line
 185 2011-09-01 04:18:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: parameter; changed most stored time values from ints to floats
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 193 2011-09-01 04:28:19 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r7d58aae3fb20 pushpool/ (msg.c server.h): Split "stale" into "prevhash-stale" (most recent non-current prevhash only) and "prevhash-wrong" (any other prevhash)
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 212 2011-09-01 04:53:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: erm, rollntime expire *is* backward compatible
 213 2011-09-01 04:53:48 <luke-jr> jgarzik: pre-expire miners only check that the header is present, and ignore its value
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 251 2011-09-01 05:55:55 <Doktor99_> does anybody know how bitcoinwatch derives total network hashrate?
 252 2011-09-01 05:56:12 <[Tycho]> By counting blocks.
 253 2011-09-01 05:56:12 <Doktor99_> is it based purely on the rate of block solve over some averaging window/
 254 2011-09-01 05:56:19 <[Tycho]> (incorrectly)
 255 2011-09-01 05:56:31 <Doktor99_> and then the pools based on their own reported stats?
 256 2011-09-01 05:56:39 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 257 2011-09-01 05:56:40 <Doktor99_> and the other is just the difference?
 258 2011-09-01 05:56:45 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 259 2011-09-01 05:57:00 <[Tycho]> And this is really wrong way.
 260 2011-09-01 05:57:03 <Doktor99_> ok, thanks... i wonder what their averaging window is... maybe just 24 hrs
 261 2011-09-01 05:57:13 <Doktor99_> how should it be done... is there a forum post on this
 262 2011-09-01 05:57:21 <Doktor99_> does bitcoincharts calculate differently?
 263 2011-09-01 05:58:01 <[Tycho]> May be 3 days.
 264 2011-09-01 05:58:06 <Doktor99_> is there any concept of global share count (difficultly 1 blocks)
 265 2011-09-01 05:58:18 <[Tycho]> bitcoincharts and bitcoinwatch are run by same author
 266 2011-09-01 05:58:29 <Doktor99_> something like aggregate getwork() requests or something, with valid shares
 267 2011-09-01 05:58:42 <Doktor99_> i mean, all the pools obviously calculate their pool rate on this basis
 268 2011-09-01 05:58:48 <[Tycho]> Doktor99_, this total rate counter doesn't makes correction for difficulty adjustments.
 269 2011-09-01 05:59:12 <Doktor99_> is that the flaw?
 270 2011-09-01 05:59:23 <[Tycho]> It's one of the flaws.
 271 2011-09-01 05:59:26 <Doktor99_> diffiulty only every 2016 though
 272 2011-09-01 05:59:31 <Doktor99_> so usually it's right
 273 2011-09-01 05:59:43 <Doktor99_> every couple of weeks it's wrong for 3 days, if they use a 3 day window
 274 2011-09-01 06:00:16 <[Tycho]> Also, this counter is affected by luck, but pool's counters aren't.
 275 2011-09-01 06:00:21 <[Tycho]> Well, almost.
 276 2011-09-01 06:00:29 <Doktor99_> almost, becuase they are counting shares
 277 2011-09-01 06:00:35 <Doktor99_> which are almost luck free... for all intents and purposes
 278 2011-09-01 06:00:49 <Doktor99_> that is why i asked about global share metrics
 279 2011-09-01 06:01:20 <Doktor99_> it would be interesting if the client reported metadata about getwork() requests services
 280 2011-09-01 06:01:29 <Doktor99_> serviced...
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 283 2011-09-01 06:08:23 <[Tycho]> What requests do you mean ?
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 302 2011-09-01 06:50:00 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 303 2011-09-01 06:50:06 <phantomcircuit> i have hidden rpc fees
 304 2011-09-01 06:50:10 <phantomcircuit> the fuck is this bullshit
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 309 2011-09-01 06:58:29 <xelister> phantomcircuit: ?
 310 2011-09-01 06:58:31 <xelister> phantomcircuit: you amd bro?
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 312 2011-09-01 07:00:33 <TuxBlackEdo> amd
 313 2011-09-01 07:00:48 <TuxBlackEdo> personally i like nvidia
 314 2011-09-01 07:00:51 <xelister> amd is the new mad
 315 2011-09-01 07:00:55 <TuxBlackEdo> but bitcoin requires me to use amd
 316 2011-09-01 07:01:02 <phantomcircuit> xelister, yeah someone owes me 0.008 USD!
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 319 2011-09-01 07:03:27 <phantomcircuit> xelister, it's actually less that it send the tx fee and more that there isn't a way to figure out how much it did
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 330 2011-09-01 07:16:49 <xelister> TuxBlackEdo: bitcoin is mad
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 332 2011-09-01 07:16:59 <xelister> btw the prices suck today
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 346 2011-09-01 07:42:01 <ThomasV> who's doing safebit ?
 347 2011-09-01 07:42:29 <xelister> is it MYYYYbitcoin 2 ?
 348 2011-09-01 07:42:44 <ThomasV> no it's a gui
 349 2011-09-01 07:43:07 <ThomasV> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29109.0
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 397 2011-09-01 09:22:12 <Cokein> someone needs Ruxum invitation ?
 398 2011-09-01 09:23:22 <osmosis> who runs bitcointalk.org ?
 399 2011-09-01 09:24:32 <tcatm> osmosis: https://bitcointalk.org/donate.html
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 404 2011-09-01 09:33:40 <Bartpabicz> hi everyone. Could somebody please point me towards one of the bitcoin developers? I have a somewhat serious issue on my hands and I was directed to this channel for support
 405 2011-09-01 09:34:10 <UukGoblin> Bartpabicz, some devs are here, just say what the issue is
 406 2011-09-01 09:35:01 <Bartpabicz> alright. The bitcoins that have been sent from my wallet to another address haven't reached the addressee, however they're still gone from the wallet
 407 2011-09-01 09:35:32 <Bartpabicz> the transaction is still 'unconfiremd'
 408 2011-09-01 09:35:52 <coblee> do you see the transaction here? http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
 409 2011-09-01 09:36:24 <coblee> if so, then it's just waiting for a block to be found
 410 2011-09-01 09:36:24 <Bartpabicz> let me check, 1 sec
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 413 2011-09-01 09:37:51 <Bartpabicz> I checked by the recipient's address, it's not on the list
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 415 2011-09-01 09:39:40 <coblee> maybe the recipient already received the coins?
 416 2011-09-01 09:40:18 <coblee> what's the recipient's address? you can look it up on blockexplorer.com
 417 2011-09-01 09:40:29 <Bartpabicz> I checked it with that person, he's the bitparking owner - it hasn't been logged into his system. Also, the payment, even thoughh sent about 20 hours ago, still is 'unconfirmed'
 418 2011-09-01 09:40:45 <coblee> doublec?
 419 2011-09-01 09:41:22 <phantomcircuit> Bartpabicz, do you have the transaction id?
 420 2011-09-01 09:41:28 <phantomcircuit> or the address it was send to?
 421 2011-09-01 09:41:38 <Bartpabicz> the address is as follows
 422 2011-09-01 09:41:40 <Bartpabicz> 1SQShFnyK9dgZUTPDtn8g5igAcM6f5dhS
 423 2011-09-01 09:42:22 <phantomcircuit> you've hit a fairly common stumbling block
 424 2011-09-01 09:42:38 <phantomcircuit> if a transaction fails to be sent the first time (you're not connected to the network very well)
 425 2011-09-01 09:42:55 <phantomcircuit> it will retry randomly between 1 and 30 minutes after bitcoin is restarted
 426 2011-09-01 09:43:02 <phantomcircuit> what operating system are you using?
 427 2011-09-01 09:43:17 <Bartpabicz> I see. When I was sending it - winxp
 428 2011-09-01 09:43:25 <Bartpabicz> shortly after that I had to move to win7
 429 2011-09-01 09:43:35 <phantomcircuit> oh sorry cant help you then
 430 2011-09-01 09:43:49 <phantomcircuit> i have a build which can be forced to resend but i dont have a compile environment for windows
 431 2011-09-01 09:44:10 <phantomcircuit> what version fo the software are you using?
 432 2011-09-01 09:44:24 slush1 has joined
 433 2011-09-01 09:44:33 <Bartpabicz> 0.3.24 beta
 434 2011-09-01 09:45:12 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 435 2011-09-01 09:45:16 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 436 2011-09-01 09:45:22 <phantomcircuit> keep the client open for 30 minutes
 437 2011-09-01 09:45:32 <phantomcircuit> if it hasn'tbeen sent after that say somethign again
 438 2011-09-01 09:45:43 <Bartpabicz> will do. Thank you
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 456 2011-09-01 09:56:34 <Bartpabicz> phantomcircuit, coblee, problem is solved - the payment indeed went through after resending. Thank you for your time and attention guys, that's a load off my shoulders;)
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 478 2011-09-01 10:55:17 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
 479 2011-09-01 10:55:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.67967,"low":8.01001,"avg":8.276748406,"vwap":8.248622252,"vol":20227,"last":8.2,"buy":8.19002,"sell":8.2}}
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 483 2011-09-01 11:07:33 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
 484 2011-09-01 11:07:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 143470 | Current Difficulty: 1777774.4820015 | Next Difficulty At Block: 145151 | Next Difficulty In: 1681 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 5 hours, 53 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1852311.14687152
 485 2011-09-01 11:07:40 <gjs278> backup
 486 2011-09-01 11:07:41 <gjs278> lol
 487 2011-09-01 11:07:49 <gjs278> they all came crawling back
 488 2011-09-01 11:07:56 <Diablo-D3> heh
 489 2011-09-01 11:14:53 <Blitzboom> bitcoincharts shows another decrease though: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
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 493 2011-09-01 11:51:12 <doublec> coblee: yes?
 494 2011-09-01 11:51:45 <doublec> coblee: oh right, you were responding to someone else, sorry
 495 2011-09-01 11:52:40 TD has joined
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 498 2011-09-01 11:57:47 <lfm> ;;bc,spotestimate
 499 2011-09-01 11:57:50 <gribble> 1757734.42297
 500 2011-09-01 11:58:48 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
 501 2011-09-01 11:58:49 <gribble> 1841690.66245898
 502 2011-09-01 11:59:22 <xelister> Blitzboom: what do you think about future prices
 503 2011-09-01 11:59:39 <Blitzboom> what timeframe?
 504 2011-09-01 12:02:24 <lfm> over the next two months
 505 2011-09-01 12:02:52 <Blitzboom> UP UP UP
 506 2011-09-01 12:03:27 <lfm> any particular reason or just incurable optimism?
 507 2011-09-01 12:03:40 <Blitzboom> incurable optimism
 508 2011-09-01 12:03:43 <xelister> :)
 509 2011-09-01 12:04:02 <lfm> hehe, ok thatks for the honesty!
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 522 2011-09-01 12:29:07 * xelister sells low :|
 523 2011-09-01 12:29:19 <xelister> buying high and selling low is how I roll
 524 2011-09-01 12:29:26 * xelister stashes most though =)
 525 2011-09-01 12:32:57 <UukGoblin> xelister, it's you!
 526 2011-09-01 12:35:45 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 527 2011-09-01 12:36:20 <xelister> no i
 528 2011-09-01 12:36:22 <xelister> no u
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 530 2011-09-01 12:41:05 <UukGoblin> lol
 531 2011-09-01 12:41:08 <UukGoblin> "no i"
 532 2011-09-01 12:41:12 <UukGoblin> "yeah u"
 533 2011-09-01 12:42:55 erle- has joined
 534 2011-09-01 12:44:24 iocor has joined
 535 2011-09-01 12:46:29 <lfm> I chat therefore I am
 536 2011-09-01 12:47:21 <SomeoneWeird> I am therefore I chat
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 550 2011-09-01 13:02:11 <xelister> I use bitcoin therefore I scam you all. U mad?
 551 2011-09-01 13:03:42 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
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 554 2011-09-01 13:08:44 SuprTiggr has joined
 555 2011-09-01 13:09:16 <UukGoblin> xelister, how's BtcFN doing?
 556 2011-09-01 13:11:19 Incitatus has joined
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 558 2011-09-01 13:16:22 DukeOfURL has joined
 559 2011-09-01 13:17:12 <xelister> UukGoblin: 2 weeks
 560 2011-09-01 13:17:19 <UukGoblin> ... until?
 561 2011-09-01 13:17:42 <UukGoblin> (that's my standard deadline response too btw)
 562 2011-09-01 13:17:43 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 563 2011-09-01 13:17:58 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 564 2011-09-01 13:18:13 TiggrBot has joined
 565 2011-09-01 13:18:23 <xelister> untill something works
 566 2011-09-01 13:18:25 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•CVTTENBERC•ESSE•DELENDVM)
 567 2011-09-01 13:18:25 continrag has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 568 2011-09-01 13:18:35 <xelister> afaik :)
 569 2011-09-01 13:19:10 Rabbit67890_ has joined
 570 2011-09-01 13:19:22 <UukGoblin> ah
 571 2011-09-01 13:19:33 <UukGoblin> something like "reading the config" works? ;-]
 572 2011-09-01 13:22:37 <xelister> I think more then that will work
 573 2011-09-01 13:23:43 Clipse has joined
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 575 2011-09-01 13:27:48 <Blitzboom> xelister: i scam, therefore i am a bitcoiner
 576 2011-09-01 13:28:05 <UukGoblin> blitzbruce
 577 2011-09-01 13:28:28 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r71ce9bc88af9 cgminer/main.c: Print summary on quit modes.
 578 2011-09-01 13:28:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r71eff460983c cgminer/main.c: Mingw32 doesn't support strptime so use sscanf.
 579 2011-09-01 13:28:35 <Blitzboom> i will blitz you in the butt, boys
 580 2011-09-01 13:28:52 fictitibhf has joined
 581 2011-09-01 13:28:59 <xelister> CON KOLIVAS ???
 582 2011-09-01 13:29:03 <xelister> seriously?
 583 2011-09-01 13:29:06 <xelister> the kernel developer?
 584 2011-09-01 13:29:09 <xelister> woot?
 585 2011-09-01 13:29:21 <SomeoneWeird> yah?
 586 2011-09-01 13:29:28 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con_Kolivas
 587 2011-09-01 13:29:30 <SomeoneWeird> Con Kolivas = conman
 588 2011-09-01 13:29:30 <xelister> cool.
 589 2011-09-01 13:29:39 <SomeoneWeird> oh
 590 2011-09-01 13:29:45 <SomeoneWeird> dunno if he's the same person
 591 2011-09-01 13:30:51 PhilBert has joined
 592 2011-09-01 13:31:11 <xelister> he doesnt mention bitcoin on homepage
 593 2011-09-01 13:31:23 <SomeoneWeird> actually
 594 2011-09-01 13:31:26 <SomeoneWeird> think it is
 595 2011-09-01 13:31:27 <SomeoneWeird> D:
 596 2011-09-01 13:31:41 <SomeoneWeird> he lives like next to my house
 597 2011-09-01 13:31:43 <SomeoneWeird> (not literally)
 598 2011-09-01 13:32:43 <doublec> I'm trying to reason what figuratively living next to your house would mean
 599 2011-09-01 13:33:05 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 600 2011-09-01 13:33:06 <SomeoneWeird> near me
 601 2011-09-01 13:33:07 <SomeoneWeird> :p
 602 2011-09-01 13:33:10 <SomeoneWeird> same city
 603 2011-09-01 13:33:12 <doublec> :)
 604 2011-09-01 13:33:12 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
 605 2011-09-01 13:33:13 <SomeoneWeird> <.<
 606 2011-09-01 13:33:14 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
 607 2011-09-01 13:33:15 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 608 2011-09-01 13:33:21 * SomeoneWeird shuts up
 609 2011-09-01 13:33:27 fictitibhf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 610 2011-09-01 13:33:28 <UukGoblin> same country ;-]
 611 2011-09-01 13:33:33 <MagicalTux> same planet
 612 2011-09-01 13:34:54 SuprTiggr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 614 2011-09-01 13:35:44 <doublec> what is up with #bitcoin-market dumping all b7's trades from june?
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 619 2011-09-01 13:36:38 <imsaguy2> doublec, its just a bit behind, lol.  It'll catch up.
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 628 2011-09-01 13:41:43 <xelister> a bit... =)
 629 2011-09-01 13:42:05 <UukGoblin> I didn't know there was such a big market in Bulgaria
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 634 2011-09-01 13:47:52 Akinava is now known as Akinava|away
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 636 2011-09-01 13:51:06 <imsaguy2> lol UukGoblin, store 3 months+ of transactions and almost any market will look big
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 639 2011-09-01 13:51:28 <UukGoblin> imsaguy2, there were trades of 1kBTC
 640 2011-09-01 13:51:49 <Blitzboom> where?
 641 2011-09-01 13:51:56 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen! ohai! have you seen http://www.solidcoin.info//solidcoin-ready-for-bitcoin-collapse.php bullshit?
 642 2011-09-01 13:52:01 <imsaguy2> <+amphipod> Jul09 15:24:30 b7       1,661.6457 @    13.50       BGN
 643 2011-09-01 13:52:09 <Blitzboom> what is BGN?
 644 2011-09-01 13:52:13 <UukGoblin> bulgarian lev
 645 2011-09-01 13:52:22 <Blitzboom> ok
 646 2011-09-01 13:52:27 <imsaguy2> <+amphipod> Jul06 13:32:45 b7       1,044.5787 @    13.50       BGN
 647 2011-09-01 13:52:40 <imsaguy2> I wasn't really watching the individual trades UukGoblin
 648 2011-09-01 13:52:43 <Blitzboom> wtf, that’s the equivalent of 10 USD
 649 2011-09-01 13:52:46 <Blitzboom> oh, july 6th
 650 2011-09-01 13:52:57 <imsaguy2> yeah
 651 2011-09-01 13:53:02 <imsaguy2> we just watched all of june scroll by
 652 2011-09-01 13:53:08 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: yup.
 653 2011-09-01 13:53:09 <UukGoblin> PLN and SAR feeds still have to catch up ;-]
 654 2011-09-01 13:53:14 <Blitzboom> must have been a great journey
 655 2011-09-01 13:53:38 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, are you going to make some public comment on that?
 656 2011-09-01 13:53:54 <cjdelisl1> that's low
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 658 2011-09-01 13:54:00 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: nope, wasn't planning to.  I don't like feeding trolls.
 659 2011-09-01 13:54:06 <UukGoblin> :-(
 660 2011-09-01 13:54:09 <cjdelisl1> and it makes solid look pretty shady in general
 661 2011-09-01 13:54:10 fictitibhf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 662 2011-09-01 13:54:30 <UukGoblin> cjdelisl1, does it? to an average non-technical person?
 663 2011-09-01 13:54:54 <Blitzboom> to an average non-technical person bitcoin probably looks more shady
 664 2011-09-01 13:55:11 <Blitzboom> besides the media articles making bitcoin more legitimate
 665 2011-09-01 13:55:16 <cjdelisl1> read is the first line about how now the fbi is subverting btc, tinfoil hats anyone?
 666 2011-09-01 13:55:25 <UukGoblin> still, imho, would be nice to have some solid technical solidcoin debunk
 667 2011-09-01 13:55:39 <Blitzboom> a solid debunk, eh
 668 2011-09-01 13:55:50 <cjdelisl1> he can do what he wants but that kind of talk makes him look like a joke
 669 2011-09-01 13:56:01 <iddo> i agree, don't comment on trolling, any publicity is good publicity
 670 2011-09-01 13:56:37 <UukGoblin> yeah fair enough feeding trolls isn't good
 671 2011-09-01 13:56:40 <gavinandresen>  is solidcoin MIT license?
 672 2011-09-01 13:56:41 fictitibhf has joined
 673 2011-09-01 13:56:58 <b4epoche> Yea, that sounds like a guy with a lot of solidcoins wanting to get rich
 674 2011-09-01 13:57:06 <UukGoblin> but there's people seriously considering solidcoin as a better bitcoin, which worries me
 675 2011-09-01 13:57:08 <iddo> best is simply to start sc2 with even "better" parameters, like 1min confirmations
 676 2011-09-01 13:57:36 <UukGoblin> iddo, yeah I was saying, make these constants configurable and let anyone create his own blockchain
 677 2011-09-01 13:57:41 <UukGoblin> they'd be like tamagotchi
 678 2011-09-01 13:57:46 <Blitzboom> lol
 679 2011-09-01 13:57:52 <UukGoblin> you could look after them, feed them, make exchanges for them
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 683 2011-09-01 13:59:18 <iddo> UukGoblin: people who publicly say sc is better are probably involved in the pump and dump, at start they pumped the price at the exchange with 1 sc for 0.5 btc
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 687 2011-09-01 13:59:32 <ThomasV> tcatm: there's a bug on your site
 688 2011-09-01 13:59:45 <ThomasV> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ <-- b7
 689 2011-09-01 13:59:45 <imsaguy2> There's a snake in my boots!
 690 2011-09-01 14:00:00 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: any problems running the deadlock-fix code?
 691 2011-09-01 14:00:24 <cjdelisl1> I can think of at least one interesting attack on his model, anyone with ~50% of the solid mining power would be able to rape it badly.
 692 2011-09-01 14:00:25 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: it seems to be fixed
 693 2011-09-01 14:00:52 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: good, thanks.
 694 2011-09-01 14:01:02 fictitibhf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 695 2011-09-01 14:01:15 <Blitzboom> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39870.msg496148#msg496148
 696 2011-09-01 14:01:20 <Blitzboom> wow, this is bad news
 697 2011-09-01 14:01:26 <Blitzboom> "Our US lawyers have confirmed that at this point it is not legal for an organization to accept donations in bitcoins."
 698 2011-09-01 14:01:38 <UukGoblin> cjdelisl1, well, I was thinking about it and came to a conclusion it's actually not that easy, all you could do with ~50% is reverse some transactions
 699 2011-09-01 14:02:12 <UukGoblin> Blitzboom, oh crap
 700 2011-09-01 14:02:25 <Blitzboom> so the EFF was correct in pulling back
 701 2011-09-01 14:02:33 <log0s> Blitzboom: wow, interesting
 702 2011-09-01 14:02:40 <UukGoblin> I wonder what f$#%@d up law regulates that
 703 2011-09-01 14:02:46 <UukGoblin> and if it's true in europe
 704 2011-09-01 14:02:47 <cjdelisl1> if you can fork the chain then you can mine a lot of easy blocks because of the 400% drop
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 707 2011-09-01 14:03:43 <UukGoblin> and if it's true for receiving payments in bitcoins
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 711 2011-09-01 14:04:19 <jtaylor> it will be true in certain situations in germany soon
 712 2011-09-01 14:04:43 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: is it because of the anonymity of donations ?
 713 2011-09-01 14:04:44 <Blitzboom> jtaylor: what’s your source on that?
 714 2011-09-01 14:05:02 <MagicalTux> ThomasV: no, it's because of the instrument itself
 715 2011-09-01 14:05:17 <jtaylor> taking payments without verifying identity will not be allowed with a new law
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 717 2011-09-01 14:05:36 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: does that mean that a business cannot accept payments in btc ?
 718 2011-09-01 14:05:41 <Blitzboom> jtaylor: i’ve read about that (ukash etc.), but is this law really going to pass?
 719 2011-09-01 14:05:47 <cjdelisl1> Can you share what part of the law says so? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense from where I sit.
 720 2011-09-01 14:05:56 <MagicalTux> ThomasV: that's a more difficult question
 721 2011-09-01 14:05:59 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf662cef / src/main.cpp :
 722 2011-09-01 14:06:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #470 from fabianhjr/master
 723 2011-09-01 14:06:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Checkpoints - http://git.io/wA3JwA
 724 2011-09-01 14:06:03 <Blitzboom> jtaylor: and wouldn’t that make it illegal to accept bitcoin at all?
 725 2011-09-01 14:06:08 <MagicalTux> accepting donations in BTC is an issue because of all the reglementations around donations
 726 2011-09-01 14:06:19 <MagicalTux> business activity is slightly less reglemented than donations
 727 2011-09-01 14:06:28 <MagicalTux> if you are unsure, ask your lawyer
 728 2011-09-01 14:06:32 <ThomasV> can you accept a donation in food ?
 729 2011-09-01 14:06:38 <jtaylor> Blitzboom: I'm no lawyer, but I assume as long as you identify to the merchant and can prove its your money it should still be allowed
 730 2011-09-01 14:06:55 <cjdelisl1> Does this mean 501c* donations can't be btc or no organization of any type?
 731 2011-09-01 14:06:59 <Blitzboom> MagicalTux: i will ask one of my few dozens of consultants, give me a sec
 732 2011-09-01 14:07:03 <Blitzboom> lol
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 734 2011-09-01 14:07:41 <Blitzboom> jtaylor: so why would that be different with donations?
 735 2011-09-01 14:07:51 <MagicalTux> oh btw maybe it'll be of some interest to the people here
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 737 2011-09-01 14:07:59 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: perhaps you should add what you just said to your forum post, it could spare us a long long troll
 738 2011-09-01 14:08:26 <MagicalTux> our bank in France tried to play dirty, we assigned them in court and they lost (for the 3rd time). There will be in the coming months a ruling in France deciding on the status of bitcoin
 739 2011-09-01 14:08:38 <jtaylor> Blitzboom: I assume, as you can in theory use donations for laundering too
 740 2011-09-01 14:08:56 <Blitzboom> MagicalTux: the status with what regard? as what kind of asset it will be treated?
 741 2011-09-01 14:09:11 <MagicalTux> Blitzboom: yes
 742 2011-09-01 14:09:16 <MagicalTux> is it an electronic money, and if not, what is it?
 743 2011-09-01 14:09:29 <MagicalTux> the bank claims bitcoin is an electronic currency, and must be regulated as such
 744 2011-09-01 14:09:35 <marf_away> magicaltux, is sepa working to germany?
 745 2011-09-01 14:09:40 <phantomcircuit> plz2notemoney
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 747 2011-09-01 14:10:06 <MagicalTux> marf_away: yes, transfers are halted again for a while, should resume next tuesday
 748 2011-09-01 14:10:29 <marf_away> thats not yes
 749 2011-09-01 14:10:30 <marf_away> ;D
 750 2011-09-01 14:10:36 <marf_away> but ok
 751 2011-09-01 14:10:40 <MagicalTux> that's "almost yes"
 752 2011-09-01 14:10:45 <MagicalTux> we are working on it
 753 2011-09-01 14:10:59 <MagicalTux> wednesday we had a ruling that gave us reason, and forces the bank to re-open our account
 754 2011-09-01 14:11:14 <marf_away> poor bank ;D
 755 2011-09-01 14:11:21 <Blitzboom> banks need to GTFO
 756 2011-09-01 14:11:27 <MagicalTux> yep, third loss in a row
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 758 2011-09-01 14:12:00 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, emoney would be a pretty weird designation
 759 2011-09-01 14:12:15 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: can you sue the bank for losses caused by the lack of account ?
 760 2011-09-01 14:12:20 <phantomcircuit> since emoney is denominated in terms of fiat at fixed rates almost universally
 761 2011-09-01 14:12:22 <phantomcircuit> i dont get it
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 763 2011-09-01 14:12:46 <MagicalTux> phantomcircuit: the bank saw it on internet, the internet cannot be wrong (I know it, I'm from the interwebs)
 764 2011-09-01 14:12:56 <phantomcircuit> oh you mean the bank said it was
 765 2011-09-01 14:12:59 <phantomcircuit> but they lost
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 767 2011-09-01 14:13:13 <MagicalTux> the court said it was not up to the bank to determine the nature of bitcoins
 768 2011-09-01 14:13:16 <ThomasV> MagicalTux: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39870.60;topicseen  <--- as I said
 769 2011-09-01 14:13:37 <phantomcircuit> yeah as i thought the EU has that power
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 775 2011-09-01 14:18:13 <UukGoblin> "ruling in France deciding on the status of bitcoin" will be very interesting to watch
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 778 2011-09-01 14:18:55 <JFK911> lol france doesnt control the world
 779 2011-09-01 14:19:10 <MagicalTux> no, but it may become the first country in the world to set a status on bitcoins
 780 2011-09-01 14:19:44 <MagicalTux> my guess is they are going to say there is no law covering bitcoin, and request new subset of laws for "distributed electronic currencies"
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 786 2011-09-01 14:26:04 <TD> MagicalTux: hey mark, is there still a backlog for SEPA wires? I've submitted a request twice but it never came through, wondering whether to file a ticket or wait longer. submitted requests maybe 10 days ago and before that,like a month or so
 787 2011-09-01 14:26:56 <TD> oh
 788 2011-09-01 14:26:57 <TD> never mind
 789 2011-09-01 14:27:00 <MagicalTux> TD: our French bank closed our bank account again, without prior notice. We brought them to justice, there was a ruling wednesday saying they need to open the account again.
 790 2011-09-01 14:27:04 <TD> insane
 791 2011-09-01 14:27:07 <MagicalTux> waiting for the account to pop back
 792 2011-09-01 14:27:11 <TD> isn't that contempt of court?
 793 2011-09-01 14:27:17 <TD> i mean they were told to give it back to you ....
 794 2011-09-01 14:27:29 <TD> why do they hate you guys so much? don't they want your fees?
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 804 2011-09-01 14:40:56 <MagicalTux> [23:19:47] <TD> why do they hate you guys so much? don't they want your fees? <- electronic money are mostly run by mafia and other bad things, and banks are not really keen to be associated with this
 805 2011-09-01 14:41:11 <MagicalTux> bitcoin has a chance as it's decentralized, hence it has no real "main association"
 806 2011-09-01 14:41:30 <TD> yes, but they were already told it's not up to them to decide that, by the court itself.
 807 2011-09-01 14:41:31 <MagicalTux> however the bank saw "electronic money" and is afraid
 808 2011-09-01 14:41:34 <MagicalTux> yes
 809 2011-09-01 14:41:42 <MagicalTux> but they decided to close the account anyway, despite losing the appeal
 810 2011-09-01 14:42:35 <TD> presumably they have to respect the courts decision at some point
 811 2011-09-01 14:42:41 <kjj> heh.  I bet the mafia isn't happy about being associated with banks either
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 813 2011-09-01 14:43:27 <MagicalTux> TD: wednesday the court decided they have to open the bank account, starting the day they receive the written notice (even if they don't accept it) they will be fined 5000 euro per day late
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 815 2011-09-01 14:44:02 <TD> they must be hoping you guys get bored and go away
 816 2011-09-01 14:44:07 <TD> how is the swiss bank coming along?
 817 2011-09-01 14:44:26 <MagicalTux> the swiss bank is not feeling too well about this and is asking for another 2 weeks delay to think about it
 818 2011-09-01 14:45:04 <TD> because they're afraid of money laundering charges also ?
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 822 2011-09-01 14:46:19 <MagicalTux> [23:37:22] <TD> because they're afraid of money laundering charges also ? <- I guess so
 823 2011-09-01 14:46:23 <MagicalTux> but this is playing against them
 824 2011-09-01 14:46:39 <MagicalTux> because now the account must be opened within the most strict and limited rules defined by French laws
 825 2011-09-01 14:46:53 <MagicalTux> which means they cannot charge /anything/ on the operations for the account (by law)
 826 2011-09-01 14:47:52 <cjdelisl1> MagicalTux: any word on debit card ETA?
 827 2011-09-01 14:48:11 <MagicalTux> cjdelisl1: it's in the TODO list, being delayed by explanations of what bitcoin is
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 829 2011-09-01 14:48:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: aldiyen * r348e2d088c4b Phoenix-Miner-personal/ (Miner.py minerutil/RPCProtocol.py):
 830 2011-09-01 14:48:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Retry work until we're able to connect, rather than giving up; don't ever assume
 831 2011-09-01 14:48:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: current work is invalid, even if there is a network outage -- let the server
 832 2011-09-01 14:48:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: reject it if it's bad; use floats for CommTiming values, and set starting
 833 2011-09-01 14:48:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: maxCommTime to 10.0 rather than 0
 834 2011-09-01 14:48:27 <cjdelisl1> I see
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 872 2011-09-01 15:39:55 <luke-jr> "Know one thing though, the developers of SolidCoin have a plan for the future which does not include governments," lololol
 873 2011-09-01 15:40:44 <UukGoblin> of course
 874 2011-09-01 15:41:19 <UukGoblin> the plan is: they get rich, fuck off to some hot island with hot chicks and never again deal with anyone :-]
 875 2011-09-01 15:41:59 <luke-jr> it's funny how their main selling point is the whole hashrate dropoff issue, yet they don't really fix it
 876 2011-09-01 15:42:28 <copumpkin> what dropoff issue is that?
 877 2011-09-01 15:42:31 <copumpkin> I haven't been keeping up
 878 2011-09-01 15:42:43 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 879 2011-09-01 15:42:48 <UukGoblin> copumpkin, something related to "pump-n-dump" by large pools...
 880 2011-09-01 15:42:49 <luke-jr> copumpkin: if the hashrate drops too fast, blocks won't get made, and the next adjustment won't be reached ever
 881 2011-09-01 15:43:03 <copumpkin> oh, okay
 882 2011-09-01 15:43:04 <copumpkin> like namecoin
 883 2011-09-01 15:43:07 <luke-jr> yeah
 884 2011-09-01 15:44:19 <luke-jr> the solution to that is IMO obvious
 885 2011-09-01 15:44:53 <luke-jr> allow a retarget after a day of no blocks
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 887 2011-09-01 15:45:06 <copumpkin> or use a running average
 888 2011-09-01 15:45:11 <copumpkin> exponentially weighted
 889 2011-09-01 15:45:13 <copumpkin> or something like that
 890 2011-09-01 15:45:21 <copumpkin> instead of a fixed-width window
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 892 2011-09-01 15:46:06 <kakobrekla> what about variable block reward
 893 2011-09-01 15:46:15 <kakobrekla> faster network less reward
 894 2011-09-01 15:46:27 <kakobrekla> slower network more reward
 895 2011-09-01 15:46:29 <kakobrekla> per block
 896 2011-09-01 15:46:45 <UukGoblin> IMO it's not a major problem at all
 897 2011-09-01 15:47:03 <copumpkin> UukGoblin: it stops any competing currency from really catching on
 898 2011-09-01 15:47:15 <copumpkin> none of the current ones (except maybe namecoin) have any interesting technical merits
 899 2011-09-01 15:47:38 <copumpkin> but if one came along that did, it'd be nice if it weren't vulnerable to miners with short attention spans
 900 2011-09-01 15:47:43 <UukGoblin> yeah, it's a problem that the solidcoin dev saw with ixcoin and he wanted his own ixcoin so he worked around it
 901 2011-09-01 15:48:03 <copumpkin> see what I just said :P
 902 2011-09-01 15:48:06 <UukGoblin> copumpkin, the solution is easy: merged mining
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 905 2011-09-01 15:52:39 <Diablo-D3> so what alternate currencies are worth doing?
 906 2011-09-01 15:53:08 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, currently none afaik
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 908 2011-09-01 15:54:45 <Diablo-D3> heh
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 910 2011-09-01 15:56:42 <gavinandresen> I'd like to see if a ToeCoin-like system could work (not with actual toes, though).
 911 2011-09-01 15:57:05 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, nanotube added:
 912 2011-09-01 15:57:13 <gavinandresen> And if somebody came up with a brilliant way of tying the money supply to real economic activity.
 913 2011-09-01 15:57:15 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,altprofit 50 0.029 94037.961114
 914 2011-09-01 15:57:16 <gribble> The other chain, with 50 coins per block, price of 0.029 BTC per coin, and supplied difficulty of 94037.961114, is 0.548240937673 times as profitable as mining bitcoin directly, which is currently at 50 BTC per block and difficulty of 1777774.4820015 .
 915 2011-09-01 15:57:51 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, link?
 916 2011-09-01 15:58:01 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: so whats that mean?
 917 2011-09-01 15:58:29 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, that currently namecoin has 54.8% of the profitability of mining bitcoin
 918 2011-09-01 15:58:43 <UukGoblin> solidcoin was at 300% for a while
 919 2011-09-01 15:58:50 <UukGoblin> but now it's down to ~80% or sth
 920 2011-09-01 15:58:56 <gavinandresen> UukGoblin: link for ToeCoin?  I dunno, it is on the forums.  The idea being you trade one of your toes for a fixed number of coins.  Absolutely fair, everybody gets same number to start....
 921 2011-09-01 15:59:19 <kakobrekla> 'profitability' of mining for all chains
 922 2011-09-01 15:59:19 <kakobrekla> http://www.coinotron.com/coinotron/AccountServlet?action=myaccount
 923 2011-09-01 15:59:23 <kakobrekla> on top
 924 2011-09-01 15:59:29 <kakobrekla> dunno how fresh is it
 925 2011-09-01 15:59:36 <kakobrekla> prolly hourly?
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 927 2011-09-01 15:59:58 <cjdelisl1> Organ trade has a lot of unintended consiquences as would toecoin
 928 2011-09-01 16:00:04 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: what about ixcoin and iocoin?
 929 2011-09-01 16:00:08 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, well, almost... I saw someone with ~30 toes or sth
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 932 2011-09-01 16:00:57 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rdd78683 / (13 files): Merge branch 'code-cleanup' of git://github.com/muggenhor/bitcoin - http://git.io/PqdwJA
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 935 2011-09-01 16:01:07 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you have to supply your own values there, I can't be arsed to look up their difficulties
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 939 2011-09-01 16:02:06 <kakobrekla> hm, those number on coinotron are live it seems
 940 2011-09-01 16:02:09 <Diablo-D3> I dont even know how to run other chains :<
 941 2011-09-01 16:02:47 <kakobrekla> i0c looks best now
 942 2011-09-01 16:02:54 <kakobrekla> but by the time you get it to ex
 943 2011-09-01 16:02:59 <kakobrekla> things might change a lot
 944 2011-09-01 16:03:00 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you get their shitty client, use it like bitcoind, and accept the fact that all that someone's done is s/bitcoin/solidcoin/g
 945 2011-09-01 16:03:04 <cjdelisl1> But IMO the most important thing is having a better distribution model than "everyone knows everything" and nobody has attacked that yet.
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 947 2011-09-01 16:03:20 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: that sounds stupid
 948 2011-09-01 16:03:34 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, well OK they changed some constants too
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 950 2011-09-01 16:04:03 <Diablo-D3> but did they change them correctly?
 951 2011-09-01 16:04:17 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, well "it works"... for now
 952 2011-09-01 16:04:32 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: solidcoin in particular made some not very well thought out changes
 953 2011-09-01 16:04:46 <UukGoblin> whether 3-minute blocks and 10%-up 400%-down difficulty adjustments caps are good or not is obviously open for debate
 954 2011-09-01 16:05:23 <cjdelisl1> 400% down makes attacking profitable If I'm not mistaken.
 955 2011-09-01 16:05:37 <jrmithdobbs> solidcoin actually de-incentivizes validation by having a fixed txn fee that never changes
 956 2011-09-01 16:05:51 <jrmithdobbs> so validators are basically encouraged to only include small (size/processing-wise) txns
 957 2011-09-01 16:05:52 <Diablo-D3> heh
 958 2011-09-01 16:05:54 <jrmithdobbs> pretty stupid
 959 2011-09-01 16:07:21 <jrmithdobbs> UukGoblin: that change only matters for small unproven chains and is pretty much a non-issue for the bitcoin livenet
 960 2011-09-01 16:07:33 <jrmithdobbs> it fixes a problem that doesn't affect anything but worthless small chains, basically
 961 2011-09-01 16:07:41 <UukGoblin> jrmithdobbs, yep
 962 2011-09-01 16:07:57 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: it will affect Bitcoin next year
 963 2011-09-01 16:08:10 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: how so?
 964 2011-09-01 16:08:19 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: 50 -> 25
 965 2011-09-01 16:08:29 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: will make mining unprofitable for a lot of people
 966 2011-09-01 16:08:50 <jrmithdobbs> we'll see
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 968 2011-09-01 16:09:19 <Eliel> if it hits a period when the exchange rate is going down, it'll make for problems but if the rate is going up, I don't think there'll be a problem.
 969 2011-09-01 16:09:24 <UukGoblin> imho the worst that can happen is we won't see difficulty adjustment for ~month
 970 2011-09-01 16:09:36 <UukGoblin> and people will have to wait ~20 minutes for block during that month
 971 2011-09-01 16:09:40 <Eliel> and 20 minute blocks for the month
 972 2011-09-01 16:10:06 <UukGoblin> of course, if 99% mining power suddenly dropped, it might be seen as a problem
 973 2011-09-01 16:10:08 <Eliel> actually, more like 3 weeks, it doesn't hit a difficulty boundary.
 974 2011-09-01 16:10:17 <UukGoblin> but difficulty adjustment rate isn't that important then
 975 2011-09-01 16:10:54 <luke-jr> IMO the whole difficulty adjustment should probably be a sliding window and change every block
 976 2011-09-01 16:11:27 <Eliel> I agree
 977 2011-09-01 16:11:37 <Eliel> is that a forking change?
 978 2011-09-01 16:11:43 <luke-jr> yes
 979 2011-09-01 16:11:50 <luke-jr> but the catch is being sure miners can't game it by playign with block times
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 981 2011-09-01 16:12:23 <UukGoblin> IMO the block reward could be made with more precision, but difficulty adjustment every fixed-number-of-blocks isn't necessarily bad
 982 2011-09-01 16:12:58 <luke-jr> honestly, if it were me, I'd scrap the block chain
 983 2011-09-01 16:13:01 <Eliel> luke-jr: doesn't sound likely it'd be any easier to game it than it is to game these fixed difficulty increases.
 984 2011-09-01 16:13:05 <luke-jr> but I think I went over that already
 985 2011-09-01 16:13:06 <UukGoblin> it means that when something drastic happens to the network, people with little hashpower won't be able to run exploits for at least 2 weeks
 986 2011-09-01 16:13:15 <UukGoblin> and 2 weeks should give the network enough time to recover
 987 2011-09-01 16:13:20 <Eliel> luke-jr: how would the double spending be prevented then?
 988 2011-09-01 16:13:47 <luke-jr> Eliel: every transaction would "confirm" every past transaction
 989 2011-09-01 16:14:00 <Eliel> oh, single transaction blocks then?
 990 2011-09-01 16:14:02 <luke-jr> Eliel: except confirmations would be measured in % of new transactions, not a fixed number
 991 2011-09-01 16:14:12 <luke-jr> Eliel: sure, but designed to survive forks
 992 2011-09-01 16:14:23 <luke-jr> so you're always having forking going on
 993 2011-09-01 16:14:29 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, have you got that written down somewhere?
 994 2011-09-01 16:14:38 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: just various chat logs
 995 2011-09-01 16:14:49 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, what about proof-of-work?
 996 2011-09-01 16:15:14 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: proof-of-work isn't needed as much since it wouldn't be tied to minting
 997 2011-09-01 16:15:27 <luke-jr> though might be something useful for anti-spam
 998 2011-09-01 16:15:36 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, it's needed to ensure other stuff, yeah, like anti-spam
 999 2011-09-01 16:15:43 <luke-jr> I haven't thought up a new minting algorithm
1000 2011-09-01 16:15:47 <UukGoblin> right
1001 2011-09-01 16:15:56 * luke-jr notes Bitcoin lacks any kind of anti-spam besides txn fees right now
1002 2011-09-01 16:16:01 <luke-jr> (realisticly)
1003 2011-09-01 16:16:18 <Eliel> luke-jr: perhaps do some hacks so you can only get those coins by destroying bitcoins?
1004 2011-09-01 16:16:33 <luke-jr> Eliel: right, IMO any success would necessitate an upgrade path
1005 2011-09-01 16:16:42 <luke-jr> maybe
1006 2011-09-01 16:16:54 <luke-jr> problem with that is then clients would need to maintain the Bitcoin network too :P
1007 2011-09-01 16:17:37 <Eliel> I mean, the obvious upgrade path for me is to push bitcoins into a void with a special transaction that then tells the succeeding chain how to access the money but where the money is effectively lost for bitcoin.
1008 2011-09-01 16:17:53 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, txn fees don't really prevent miners from spamming. The only anti-spam feature I'm aware of is 1MB blocksize limit
1009 2011-09-01 16:18:01 <Eliel> luke-jr: lightweight client implementation would be enough
1010 2011-09-01 16:18:03 <luke-jr> Eliel: right, but to do that, the succeeding system needs to maintain the original system
1011 2011-09-01 16:18:51 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: well, miner spam hasn't been a problem so far; it's easy enough for non-miners to spam
1012 2011-09-01 16:20:14 <Eliel> I quite like the idea of moving bitcoins to a new chain while (effectively) removing them from bitcoin chain :)
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1014 2011-09-01 16:20:42 <Eliel> Even nicer would be if it could be done two way but I can't quite figure out how to do that without trusted systems.
1015 2011-09-01 16:20:46 <luke-jr> it would be genius if there was a way to do it without keeping the old one around
1016 2011-09-01 16:21:23 <luke-jr> well
1017 2011-09-01 16:21:39 <luke-jr> I suppose one could always hard-code the "who has what" in the initial state
1018 2011-09-01 16:21:44 <Eliel> well, it could go in stages. First bootstrap with bitcoin, have certain time period during which bitcoins can be converted and then some time limit after which it's not longer possible (and bitcoin support can be dropped)
1019 2011-09-01 16:22:00 <luke-jr> maybe
1020 2011-09-01 16:22:39 <UukGoblin> I don't think bitcoin has any major issues that would warrant such a change
1021 2011-09-01 16:22:44 <luke-jr> another genius feature would be a secure way to discard the past entirely
1022 2011-09-01 16:22:52 <Eliel> UukGoblin: for now, I agree.
1023 2011-09-01 16:23:08 <Eliel> UukGoblin: but it's good to have ideas on how to transition.
1024 2011-09-01 16:23:17 <UukGoblin> sure
1025 2011-09-01 16:23:28 <luke-jr> wee, #bitcoin-watch reset :p
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1027 2011-09-01 16:23:36 <luke-jr> no more Bitcoin7 spam
1028 2011-09-01 16:23:39 <Eliel> I mean, it's certain it'll be necessary at some point :)
1029 2011-09-01 16:23:51 <UukGoblin> I wonder what'll come out of this French ruling
1030 2011-09-01 16:24:08 <Eliel> what are they ruling on?
1031 2011-09-01 16:24:14 <UukGoblin> Eliel, bitcoin
1032 2011-09-01 16:24:15 <luke-jr> maybe we can spin it as "French court approves Bitcoin"
1033 2011-09-01 16:24:27 <luke-jr> Eliel: really whether MtGox has a legal right to a bank account
1034 2011-09-01 16:24:36 <luke-jr> Eliel: ie, force the bank to let them do business
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1036 2011-09-01 16:25:23 <Eliel> I thought that was a done thing already. The bank kept wriggling about it?
1037 2011-09-01 16:25:30 <UukGoblin> "There will be in the coming months a ruling in France deciding on the status of bitcoin"
1038 2011-09-01 16:25:46 <UukGoblin> ^ is what MagicalTux said
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1040 2011-09-01 16:26:49 <Diablo-D3> erm, but we dont care what france thinks
1041 2011-09-01 16:26:54 <luke-jr> Eliel: the bank closed the account despite the court order, IIRC
1042 2011-09-01 16:27:08 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is not a real currency
1043 2011-09-01 16:27:15 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I care
1044 2011-09-01 16:27:15 <Diablo-D3> no more than canada is a real country
1045 2011-09-01 16:27:32 <luke-jr> lol
1046 2011-09-01 16:27:40 <Eliel> :D
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1060 2011-09-01 16:54:09 <Matth1a3> anyone know how I can get a hold of Sipa?
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1106 2011-09-01 18:05:56 <jgarzik> luke-jr: connection timed out to your scm
1107 2011-09-01 18:06:03 <jgarzik> luke-jr: you should just use github...
1108 2011-09-01 18:06:09 <Diablo-D3> apparently the internet is falling apart
1109 2011-09-01 18:06:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: works for me…
1110 2011-09-01 18:06:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: GitHub TOS, on the other hand, do not "work" for me
1111 2011-09-01 18:06:45 <jgarzik> oh well
1112 2011-09-01 18:06:58 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool.git is the primary git repo
1113 2011-09-01 18:07:12 <luke-jr> not sure why I sent you a mirror
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1117 2011-09-01 18:10:25 <luke-jr> jgarzik: gitorious work for you?
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1119 2011-09-01 18:14:35 <vsrinivas> what is wrong w/ github's TOS?
1120 2011-09-01 18:15:03 <BlueMatt> vsrinivas: please dont get him started...
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1122 2011-09-01 18:19:19 <luke-jr> vsrinivas: it creates an unlimited legal financial liability if someone just accuses GitHub of breaking some law, mentioning your name/project
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1156 2011-09-01 19:09:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r783c636 / (5 files):
1157 2011-09-01 19:09:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #467 from gavinandresen/keypoolzero
1158 2011-09-01 19:09:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Logic running with -keypool=0 was wrong (empty keys were being returned). - http://git.io/w1DX4w
1159 2011-09-01 19:10:43 <xelister> goxxed while goxxed - mtgox sliped it's deadline to explain why deadline on unlocking our accounts was sliped -> https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20402146-bitomat-pl-re-launch-delays
1160 2011-09-01 19:10:48 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
1161 2011-09-01 19:11:06 <xelister> still no update (certainly none on bitomat.pl)
1162 2011-09-01 19:12:58 <BlueMatt> xelister: if you want to complain about mtgox, please dont do it here
1163 2011-09-01 19:13:14 <xelister> actually this is not just usuall remind how we are just daily goxxed
1164 2011-09-01 19:13:23 <xelister> nor just reminder how this undermines trust in bitcoin
1165 2011-09-01 19:13:35 <xelister> an idea: how about some mechanism to return goxxed money to previous address
1166 2011-09-01 19:13:57 <xelister> if wallet was lost - then under some condition it will eventually return to initiall owner/address
1167 2011-09-01 19:14:11 <BlueMatt> how about you dont complain about mtgox here
1168 2011-09-01 19:14:14 <xelister> if wallet was stolen and now controlled by thiefs, it will at least force them out of hidding
1169 2011-09-01 19:14:26 <BlueMatt> and stop wasting time
1170 2011-09-01 19:14:28 <luke-jr> xelister: there is no "from address"
1171 2011-09-01 19:14:56 <xelister> luke-jr: yeah so add the from address
1172 2011-09-01 19:15:01 <xelister> or rather, return-to address
1173 2011-09-01 19:15:43 <xelister> it can be used to allow to return money (if send by mistake and if the recipient is hones enough - it can happen - e.g. legal/serious businesses operating in bitcoin and receiving erronouresly or e.g. realizing they don't have the item in stock)
1174 2011-09-01 19:16:12 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1175 2011-09-01 19:16:13 <luke-jr> how about they just finish fixing it ASAP like makes sense
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1177 2011-09-01 19:16:41 <xelister> it is not just for case of mtgox
1178 2011-09-01 19:16:44 <xelister> or bitomat.pl
1179 2011-09-01 19:16:54 <xelister> it is for all cases of goxxing or bitomating money
1180 2011-09-01 19:17:29 * BlueMatt is seriously considering writing a script to autoban people who say "goxxed"
1181 2011-09-01 19:17:39 <xelister> BlueMatt: way to be objective
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1183 2011-09-01 19:18:00 <xelister> we bitcoin users love being governed ;)
1184 2011-09-01 19:18:14 <BlueMatt> I dont care if you are talking about mtgox positively or negatively, it just doesnt belong in -dev
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1186 2011-09-01 19:18:21 <BlueMatt> feel free to do it on #bitcoin
1187 2011-09-01 19:18:58 <xelister> yeah
1188 2011-09-01 19:19:10 <xelister> so, auto-returning money and anyway an return-to address.  thoughts?
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1190 2011-09-01 19:19:33 <BlueMatt> return-to address: not a bad idea, auto-return...
1191 2011-09-01 19:19:35 <BlueMatt> not so much
1192 2011-09-01 19:19:42 <xelister> why not?
1193 2011-09-01 19:19:51 <xelister> Im thinking what should be rules
1194 2011-09-01 19:20:20 <BlueMatt> its not backward compatible and doesnt have enough of a use-case
1195 2011-09-01 19:20:26 <BlueMatt> a website which does it for you is just as good
1196 2011-09-01 19:20:34 <xelister> simplies would be: auto-return if money not moved for 30 days etc... but then, moving may auto occure already in the goxxing site
1197 2011-09-01 19:20:40 <xelister> like wallets consolidation
1198 2011-09-01 19:20:44 <BlueMatt> doing /everything/ in bitcoin directly just isnt worth it
1199 2011-09-01 19:20:55 <xelister> auto-return would be off by default
1200 2011-09-01 19:21:14 <xelister> sure this can be added without changing format? like.. in the script area?
1201 2011-09-01 19:21:25 <BlueMatt> no, it cant
1202 2011-09-01 19:21:47 <BlueMatt> you could nLockTime and double-spend before locktime, but thats not the same
1203 2011-09-01 19:21:57 <xelister> uhm
1204 2011-09-01 19:22:10 <xelister> can we add extra information field to a transaction?
1205 2011-09-01 19:22:25 <BlueMatt> you can already do that with OP_DROP
1206 2011-09-01 19:22:30 <xelister> (it could make TX heavier resulting in larget blocks and possibly this will cost some txfee but thats fine)
1207 2011-09-01 19:22:46 <xelister> ok so adding extra data to TX is possible
1208 2011-09-01 19:23:03 <BlueMatt> behaving differently based on that data is not
1209 2011-09-01 19:23:10 <BlueMatt> (miners behaving...)
1210 2011-09-01 19:23:22 <xelister> so we could add an return-to address, it would mean that sender says that if we do not want to accept this transaction we should return it to that address
1211 2011-09-01 19:23:40 <BlueMatt> yes, you could
1212 2011-09-01 19:25:07 semb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1213 2011-09-01 19:25:31 <kjj> if the spend came from a shared wallet (like a website), the return will just be a gift to a random user of that site
1214 2011-09-01 19:25:35 pickett has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1215 2011-09-01 19:25:44 <BlueMatt> unless you do a return-to address
1216 2011-09-01 19:25:50 <kjj> no
1217 2011-09-01 19:25:51 <BlueMatt> which is xelister's point
1218 2011-09-01 19:25:59 pickett has joined
1219 2011-09-01 19:26:02 <kjj> especially if you do a return to address
1220 2011-09-01 19:26:17 <BlueMatt> if you are going to specify a return-to address that would be an address specific to the sending user
1221 2011-09-01 19:26:33 <kjj> oh, I see it now.  you mean including an address in the transaction that returns should be directed to
1222 2011-09-01 19:26:43 <BlueMatt> yea
1223 2011-09-01 19:27:06 <kjj> in that case, it isn't wrong, just pointless
1224 2011-09-01 19:27:08 pickett has quit (Client Quit)
1225 2011-09-01 19:27:13 <xelister> well if the money already left the "website" then it's too late
1226 2011-09-01 19:27:24 <xelister> it is for simple case when A sends money to B
1227 2011-09-01 19:27:29 <xelister> and B losts it
1228 2011-09-01 19:27:45 <xelister> 1) really looses wallet.dat (bitomated) -> it will return to A after some time
1229 2011-09-01 19:27:53 <BlueMatt> kjj: yea, I dont really see much point, but in some (very rare) cases, it might be useful
1230 2011-09-01 19:28:01 <xelister> 2) pretends to loose the wallet.dat -> he will be forced to move it so people will know he is lying
1231 2011-09-01 19:28:06 <kjj> that is a case for the (A&B)|C transaction type
1232 2011-09-01 19:28:19 xelister has joined
1233 2011-09-01 19:28:21 <kjj> ha!
1234 2011-09-01 19:28:30 <xelister> BlueMatt: jesus crist, behave like a man
1235 2011-09-01 19:28:39 <kjj> it was funny to everyone but you, trust me
1236 2011-09-01 19:28:44 <BlueMatt> xelister: jesus christ, behave like an adult
1237 2011-09-01 19:28:47 <xelister> it was funny to me too
1238 2011-09-01 19:28:53 <xelister> I hope this censorship will not spread
1239 2011-09-01 19:28:54 <xelister> so
1240 2011-09-01 19:28:56 <xelister> 2) pretends to loose the wallet.dat -> he will be forced to move it so people will know he is lying
1241 2011-09-01 19:29:01 <xelister> 3) they do not want to keep the money, e.g. B thinks it was a mistake
1242 2011-09-01 19:29:06 <xelister> (or shop is out of stock etc)
1243 2011-09-01 19:29:19 <BlueMatt> xelister: again, no that really isnt possible
1244 2011-09-01 19:29:25 <BlueMatt> (or desirable imo)
1245 2011-09-01 19:29:28 <xelister> why not???
1246 2011-09-01 19:29:36 <kjj> I'm saying that it is already possible to do those things (or will be soon) using better mechanisms
1247 2011-09-01 19:29:44 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> its not backward compatible and doesnt have enough of a use-case
1248 2011-09-01 19:29:44 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> a website which does it for you is just as good
1249 2011-09-01 19:29:44 <xelister> kjj: what mechanism?
1250 2011-09-01 19:30:22 <kjj> xelister: 1 and 2) (A&B)|C addresses.  3) communication outside the chain
1251 2011-09-01 19:30:48 <xelister> mtgox initiall goxxing was ALL money frozen for weeks - like 0.5 MLN BTC?     mybitcoin was how much? 0.5 MLN BTC?  and bitomat.pl is 0.17 MLN BTC
1252 2011-09-01 19:31:03 xelister has joined
1253 2011-09-01 19:31:07 <xelister> mtgox initiall goxxing was ALL money frozen for weeks - like 0.5 MLN BTC?     mybitcoin was how much? 0.5 MLN BTC?  and bitomat.pl is 0.17 MLN BTC
1254 2011-09-01 19:31:08 <xelister> thoes 3 cases are like 90% of hacking in myticoin right?
1255 2011-09-01 19:31:14 <xelister> *mybitcoin
1256 2011-09-01 19:31:26 <denisx> isn't this the dev channel?
1257 2011-09-01 19:31:31 <BlueMatt> thats my point
1258 2011-09-01 19:31:36 <Diablo-D3> no, this is the we hate xelister channel
1259 2011-09-01 19:31:39 <Diablo-D3> annoying fucker
1260 2011-09-01 19:31:49 <kjj> I don't think he got the hint the first few times.  the +b was a nice touch
1261 2011-09-01 19:31:57 <denisx> this is also the guy who wrote the php pool?
1262 2011-09-01 19:33:08 <kjj> BlueMatt:  can your script send "Strike 1", "Strike 2" and "Yer outta here!" messages when it triggers?
1263 2011-09-01 19:34:13 jered-tradehill has joined
1264 2011-09-01 19:34:24 <BlueMatt> I was joking, I dont plan on writing such a script, but I do plan on continuing to ban xelister if Im here and he keeps talking about mtgox
1265 2011-09-01 19:34:32 ThomasV has joined
1266 2011-09-01 19:34:47 <kjj> and actually, I was wrong.  his 2nd scenario can't be solved with (A&B)|C scripts
1267 2011-09-01 19:34:59 semb has joined
1268 2011-09-01 19:35:11 helo has joined
1269 2011-09-01 19:35:59 <kjj> I don't mind him talking about mtgox, as long as it is in the context of development.
1270 2011-09-01 19:36:14 <kjj> but since mtgox wasn't a bitcoin problem, it was a bad example
1271 2011-09-01 19:40:18 dvide_ has quit ()
1272 2011-09-01 19:40:34 <kjj> I've noticed that most of the whining about censorship mostly on the forums, but also just now from xelister, has been from annoying little pricks that no one really wants to talk to
1273 2011-09-01 19:43:16 <kjj> so, who has tips on jumping into the bitcoin code for a guy that hasn't done any C programming in like 10 years, and rarely did any C++ even back then?
1274 2011-09-01 19:43:50 * BlueMatt had never done any c or c++ before bitcoin
1275 2011-09-01 19:45:03 <kjj> I've found that with some effort, I can figure out how things work, most of the time
1276 2011-09-01 19:45:15 <BlueMatt> feel free to ask
1277 2011-09-01 19:45:38 <BlueMatt> though bitcoin is pretty easy to hack on without knowing how everything fits together perfectly
1278 2011-09-01 19:45:48 <kjj> well, I think the big problem is that the things I want to do aren't small
1279 2011-09-01 19:46:03 <BlueMatt> like what?
1280 2011-09-01 19:46:17 <kjj> like adding a serial interface for RPC commands
1281 2011-09-01 19:46:29 <kjj> and that one has cross-platform implications, I think
1282 2011-09-01 19:46:57 <BlueMatt> a serial interface?
1283 2011-09-01 19:47:10 * luke-jr pokes jgarzik
1284 2011-09-01 19:47:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: connection still timing out
1285 2011-09-01 19:47:38 <luke-jr> jgarzik: on Gitorious and Dashjr?
1286 2011-09-01 19:47:55 <jgarzik> luke-jr: the url you sent me, git://scm.dashjr.org/
1287 2011-09-01 19:48:03 <kjj> BlueMatt: for a hardware wallet.  it is one of the steps along the road
1288 2011-09-01 19:48:12 <luke-jr> [13:59:15] <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool.git is the primary git repo
1289 2011-09-01 19:50:14 <BlueMatt> kjj: oh like real serial...well Id think the better way to do that is replace CWallet with a CWallet that communicates over serial?
1290 2011-09-01 19:50:16 <luke-jr> kjj: serial doesn't make sense for JSON-RPC
1291 2011-09-01 19:50:21 larsivi has joined
1292 2011-09-01 19:50:23 <luke-jr> kjj: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
1293 2011-09-01 19:50:47 ciscoftw has left ()
1294 2011-09-01 19:51:07 <BlueMatt> kjj: assuming you are trying to do what Im thinking
1295 2011-09-01 19:52:50 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1296 2011-09-01 19:52:59 <kjj> like-jr: a byte stream is a byte stream.  why would TCP be different from RS-232?
1297 2011-09-01 19:54:54 <kjj> BlueMatt: http://goo.gl/uEqYS
1298 2011-09-01 19:55:10 <kjj> BlueMatt: it probably isn't what you are thinking about
1299 2011-09-01 19:55:29 <BlueMatt> give me the 1 sentence summary?
1300 2011-09-01 19:55:54 <kjj> don't think that is possible
1301 2011-09-01 19:56:17 baz has joined
1302 2011-09-01 19:56:26 <BlueMatt> split privkeys?
1303 2011-09-01 19:56:32 <BlueMatt> thats not something to do over rpc
1304 2011-09-01 19:56:45 <kjj> uh, hardware wallet, keys don't ever leave the device, talks to a node and doesn't need to trust it
1305 2011-09-01 19:57:03 <BlueMatt> so why not replace CWallet?
1306 2011-09-01 19:57:07 <BlueMatt> instead of rpc
1307 2011-09-01 19:57:46 <kjj> because I don't want a different node, I want a node that is capable of talking to random devices as they are plugged and unplugged
1308 2011-09-01 19:57:49 BitterTe1 has joined
1309 2011-09-01 19:58:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r16352e8a26c6 pushpool/ (config.c example-cfg.json msg.c server.c server.h): Allow configuring expiration time for work, and send the X-Roll-NTime header with expire=N to tell miners
1310 2011-09-01 19:58:04 <BlueMatt> different node?
1311 2011-09-01 19:58:06 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * r646bfa30fb1a pushpool/ (config.c example-cfg.json msg.c server.c server.h): Merge branch 'work_expire_enhancements' of git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jrs-pushpool into tmp
1312 2011-09-01 19:58:41 <kjj> the hardware wallet wouldn't be a node.  it would just know how to ask for transactions inovlving keys that it holds, and how to send complete signed transactions to a node
1313 2011-09-01 19:59:27 <kjj> it only requires adding a few small RPC calls, and then extending RPC to serial
1314 2011-09-01 19:59:28 <BlueMatt> oh, its a hardware node thats not on the network?
1315 2011-09-01 19:59:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: such a device wouldn't have the blockchain (and likely couldn't even store it)
1316 2011-09-01 19:59:50 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
1317 2011-09-01 19:59:54 <BlueMatt> makes sense then
1318 2011-09-01 19:59:59 <kjj> but it would still need transactions for the keys it holds
1319 2011-09-01 20:00:07 <gmaxwell> It's just a signing device. A real node prototypes up transactions for it. It holds the keys. Asks the user if its okay to sign, and then passes the signed txn back.
1320 2011-09-01 20:00:35 <gmaxwell> kjj: nah, make the node its talking to give it the prototype txn and copies of the inputs.
1321 2011-09-01 20:00:42 <kjj> and it has to trust some nodes occasionally for balance (transaction) updates, but you could plug it into a pwn3d terminal and safely send a transaction out of it
1322 2011-09-01 20:01:20 <BlueMatt> just a signing device means just replacing CKeyStore and part of CWallet (maybe)
1323 2011-09-01 20:01:25 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r36d9b23 / src/ui.cpp : Fixed regression I introduced: wallets with lots of transactions were unusable in GUI. - http://git.io/9fkn4w
1324 2011-09-01 20:01:47 BitterTea has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1325 2011-09-01 20:02:24 <kjj> I'm not a big fan of having the device just sign transactions made elsewhere
1326 2011-09-01 20:02:28 xelister has joined
1327 2011-09-01 20:02:40 <kjj> it seems safer to give it the balance and address, then let the device sign it.  much easier to parse and validate
1328 2011-09-01 20:02:51 <xelister> so while I was censored, any ideas based on my idea of return-to?
1329 2011-09-01 20:02:52 <gmaxwell> kjj: 'the balance' haha
1330 2011-09-01 20:02:57 <kjj> er, "then let the device *create* it"
1331 2011-09-01 20:02:57 superman2016 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1332 2011-09-01 20:03:02 <gmaxwell> kjj: Thats not how it works.
1333 2011-09-01 20:03:03 <BlueMatt> kjj: I would still do that by replacing CWallet
1334 2011-09-01 20:03:12 superman2016 has joined
1335 2011-09-01 20:03:15 <gmaxwell> It would need copies of the input transactions.
1336 2011-09-01 20:03:48 <xelister> ok stupid question, what happens now when someone sends to the address from which it received (as seen in blockexplorer)?
1337 2011-09-01 20:03:51 <kjj> gmaxwell: yeah, I keep using "balance" as a shorthand for "all transactions to and from the keys it holds"
1338 2011-09-01 20:04:13 <xelister> *he
1339 2011-09-01 20:04:21 <gmaxwell> In any case, small difference. Would require a lot more code on the device but I suppose its no real issue.
1340 2011-09-01 20:04:28 <xelister> (or the the change address)
1341 2011-09-01 20:04:42 <kjj> right, that is a design detail that can wait until far into the future
1342 2011-09-01 20:05:02 <gmaxwell> kjj: one problem is that you haven't really narrowed the threat model by doing that, since a evil node could feed it a bunch of invalid inputs and then it would start emitting broken transactions.
1343 2011-09-01 20:05:13 <kjj> gmaxwell: so?
1344 2011-09-01 20:05:28 <gmaxwell> You wallet becomes broken forever when you once plug it into a junk node?
1345 2011-09-01 20:05:38 <gmaxwell> I don't think thats a 'so?'.
1346 2011-09-01 20:05:39 <kjj> nah
1347 2011-09-01 20:05:51 <xelister> ;;bc,diff
1348 2011-09-01 20:05:52 <gribble> 1777774.4820015
1349 2011-09-01 20:05:59 <gmaxwell> kjj: ah send the inputs every time?
1350 2011-09-01 20:06:16 <kjj> at some point, you'd have to trust some node to be honest.  most likely the one on your desk at home.
1351 2011-09-01 20:06:16 <gmaxwell> I suppose. Might take a while when you have thousands of inputs.
1352 2011-09-01 20:06:45 <kjj> but it keeps your coins safe, regardless of any garbage that might get fed to it
1353 2011-09-01 20:06:50 <gmaxwell> kjj: sure, but if its remembering inputs when its told about them then breakage from a dishonest node is persistent.
1354 2011-09-01 20:06:57 <gmaxwell> They're not safe if you can't spend them.
1355 2011-09-01 20:07:30 DukeOfURL has joined
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1357 2011-09-01 20:07:40 <kjj> not if you assume the device can update the data it holds
1358 2011-09-01 20:08:27 <gmaxwell> right right. Its a non-issue if you send the available inputs every time. Then the worst a node can do is refuse to work for you and give you a screwed up balance until you plug into a good node again.
1359 2011-09-01 20:08:46 <kjj> as in, the user could say "you are now plugged into a trustworthy node, update your transaction list, and delete anything you have that I don't confirm"
1360 2011-09-01 20:09:24 <kjj> ok, the main advantages of my proposal, from the development point of view
1361 2011-09-01 20:09:37 <gmaxwell> You'd end up creating a two step operation in every case, I think thats bad.
1362 2011-09-01 20:10:03 <kjj> gmaxwell: how so?
1363 2011-09-01 20:10:40 <gmaxwell> Because you really really should update inputs before making a transaction. Working off old inputs is bad because it'll cause to you create inefficient transactions.
1364 2011-09-01 20:11:25 <kjj> gmaxwell: the keys never leave the device.
1365 2011-09-01 20:11:43 <kjj> if there is a transaction on the network that contradicts the device, you have a big, big problem
1366 2011-09-01 20:11:48 <gmaxwell> Spatula? (what you just said make NO sense to me)
1367 2011-09-01 20:12:07 <gmaxwell> It's not a question of contradiction in the slighest.
1368 2011-09-01 20:12:27 <kjj> the transactions might not be "optimal", but they will be safe
1369 2011-09-01 20:12:28 <gmaxwell> you need to know, e.g. how deep in the blockchain your inputs are so you can avoid spending un/1confirmed inputs and so you can set fees.  Have you every looked at the coin selection solver code?
1370 2011-09-01 20:12:40 <gmaxwell> s/every/ever/
1371 2011-09-01 20:12:49 <kjj> FIFO
1372 2011-09-01 20:13:17 <gmaxwell> Which will create tons of change pollution.
1373 2011-09-01 20:13:21 <gmaxwell> This is stupid.
1374 2011-09-01 20:13:35 xelister has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1375 2011-09-01 20:13:49 AlonzoTG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1376 2011-09-01 20:13:49 <gmaxwell> Just take the candidate inputs from the node you're connected to.  If that node is being nasty it can block you from transacting no matter what you do.
1377 2011-09-01 20:13:52 dfjsfjdfgnsxdth has joined
1378 2011-09-01 20:14:02 <gmaxwell> (just by dropping the txn you give it on the floor)
1379 2011-09-01 20:14:05 <kjj> it doesn't need to be strictly FIFO.  It can just favor older spends
1380 2011-09-01 20:14:51 semb has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
1381 2011-09-01 20:15:15 <kjj> and yes, you are right that the connected node has a self interest in giving you good data, since it most likely is an agent of the person you are trying to pay at that moment
1382 2011-09-01 20:15:39 bittwist has joined
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1384 2011-09-01 20:16:23 <kjj> and there are other solutions too, like flagging transactions as "old enough", and attempting to make the spend from those first
1385 2011-09-01 20:16:32 <gmaxwell> Not just that, but if it wants to be nasty it doesn't have to lie to you about the available inputs, it can just drop your output txn on the floor.
1386 2011-09-01 20:16:54 <gmaxwell> kjj: The coin selection code in bitcoin already makes goodish choices. There is no need to reinvent the wheel poorly.
1387 2011-09-01 20:17:48 <kjj> the standard node makes assumptions that aren't necessarily valid for a small wallet.  one of those assumptions being that it is running on a 2+ GHZ cpu with instant access to the entire blockchain
1388 2011-09-01 20:17:55 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1389 2011-09-01 20:17:56 <gmaxwell> I don't see any advatage to remembering the inputs. I see many disadvantages: it adds an extra mandatory step for the user ('update against trusted node') and it will reduce transaction quality.
1390 2011-09-01 20:18:25 <gmaxwell> kjj: What does that have to do with anything?
1391 2011-09-01 20:18:32 denisx has joined
1392 2011-09-01 20:18:55 <kjj> just that we can't life the code straight out.
1393 2011-09-01 20:19:01 <gmaxwell> Yes, we can.
1394 2011-09-01 20:19:12 <gmaxwell> The coin selection code makes no access to the blockchain.
1395 2011-09-01 20:19:41 <kjj> but it knows how old things are because in the background something else is keeping it constantly updated.  it is the same thing, really
1396 2011-09-01 20:19:45 <gmaxwell> The only assumption there is that it has access to the inputs and knows their size and 'age'.
1397 2011-09-01 20:19:52 zapnap has joined
1398 2011-09-01 20:19:58 <gmaxwell> Yes, but any real node can easily tell the wallet the age.
1399 2011-09-01 20:20:10 <gmaxwell> If it has the inputs it'll have the age too.
1400 2011-09-01 20:20:42 <kjj> at any rate, the guts of the thing aren't important here.  eventually, there will be many.
1401 2011-09-01 20:20:46 <gmaxwell> (and if somehow it didn't, then it would also blindly pass unconfirmed invalid txn and confuse it)
1402 2011-09-01 20:20:56 <kjj> the important thing is communication
1403 2011-09-01 20:21:27 <gmaxwell> Right, I'm only arguing with you because you're proposing some network harmful design aspects and I'd be sad to see someone implement with them in place.
1404 2011-09-01 20:21:59 <kjj> I like my idea for 2 reasons.  First, it is my idea.  :)  And second, because it gives smallish steps along the way
1405 2011-09-01 20:23:16 <kjj> my scheme actually intends to use stock standard nodes as the initial wallet devices
1406 2011-09-01 20:23:53 <kjj> so, at least initially, it actually will be using the exact same code.  it is only when the communication is worked out do I expect anyone to start making portable devices
1407 2011-09-01 20:24:25 <gmaxwell> well, I'm not super keen on the wallet actually having to do coin selection. If its display/signing/keystoage only it can be implemented on an 8bit microcontroller with very limited memory. Which is nice if you also intend to make the hardware resistant to physical attack.
1408 2011-09-01 20:24:41 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #7: FAILURE in 19 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/7/
1409 2011-09-01 20:24:42 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Fixed regression I introduced: wallets with lots of transactions were unusable in GUI.
1410 2011-09-01 20:24:44 OneFixt has joined
1411 2011-09-01 20:24:46 <gmaxwell> But I can see advantages in it doing coin selection too.
1412 2011-09-01 20:24:49 <kjj> back in 5.  gotta go get lunch before it is time to leave for the day, or I miss it
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1416 2011-09-01 20:25:34 <kjj> gmaxwell: it still needs to do the crypto, so the CPU probably won't be too tiny
1417 2011-09-01 20:25:51 <gmaxwell> kjj: ECDSA is quite cheap.
1418 2011-09-01 20:26:14 <gmaxwell> There are lots of small microcontrollers that can do sha256 and ecdsa in reasonable time. (under a second)
1419 2011-09-01 20:26:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thats a jenkins bug...
1420 2011-09-01 20:26:44 <gmaxwell> kjj: the big limitation in attack resistant hardware is memory/storage.
1421 2011-09-01 20:26:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: good.  I couldn't see how my commit would break something....
1422 2011-09-01 20:28:34 <BlueMatt> well its a bug in my scripts...
1423 2011-09-01 20:29:33 <luke-jr> kjj: the JSON-RPC protocol is not suitable to wallet control, only webapps
1424 2011-09-01 20:29:51 <luke-jr> as to TCP vs RS-232, checksums etc
1425 2011-09-01 20:30:01 BlueMattBot has quit ()
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1428 2011-09-01 20:32:08 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: fixed
1429 2011-09-01 20:32:12 <BlueMatt> shouldnt happen again
1430 2011-09-01 20:33:29 <kjj> gmaxwell: there is a guy that talks at BlackHat about how he rapes allegedly secure hardware
1431 2011-09-01 20:34:02 <gavinandresen> Anybody know if anybody has started working on dropping/banning badly behaving peer nodes?
1432 2011-09-01 20:34:49 <BlueMatt> afaik no
1433 2011-09-01 20:34:53 <kjj> luke-jr: I would go so far as to say that it is not idea, but stop far short of "not suitable"
1434 2011-09-01 20:34:57 <BlueMatt> but then Ive been gone for a while
1435 2011-09-01 20:34:59 <kjj> er, ideal
1436 2011-09-01 20:35:03 <gmaxwell> kjj: defense in depth.
1437 2011-09-01 20:35:29 <luke-jr> kjj: as an author of a JSON-RPC client, I'm going with not suitable ;)
1438 2011-09-01 20:35:33 <gmaxwell> kjj: Yea, secure hardware isn't. I used the words "attack resistant" instead of "secure" quite intentionall.
1439 2011-09-01 20:35:36 <gmaxwell> er intentionally.
1440 2011-09-01 20:37:09 eastender has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1441 2011-09-01 20:37:49 <kjj> gmaxwell: I'm the paranoid sort.  I like to assume that if my wallet falls into enemy hands, that money is gone
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1443 2011-09-01 20:39:40 <kjj> luke-jr: I'm looking at it again, and I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding what about it is unsuitable
1444 2011-09-01 20:39:44 <gmaxwell> kjj: sure sure, but see— if enemies know that cracking the wallet is a PITA and likely to fail, they'll be less likely to try and will instead go after an easier target.
1445 2011-09-01 20:40:20 <luke-jr> kjj: JSON-RPC is either unlimited access or no access
1446 2011-09-01 20:40:25 <kjj> gmaxwell: the easier target is usually me, and I don't value my money that much, I'd rather they just take the wallet
1447 2011-09-01 20:40:28 <luke-jr> kjj: in this specific use case
1448 2011-09-01 20:42:01 <kjj> luke-jr: are you saying that it isn't possible to write software that only allows certain commands on certain interfaces?
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1451 2011-09-01 20:43:52 <helo> an important command is "execute this bit of user input as if it was code"
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1453 2011-09-01 20:44:42 <luke-jr> kjj: maybe possible, but hacks on top of hacks gets old :P
1454 2011-09-01 20:45:21 <kjj> at some point the RPC layer is going to have a proper permission system.
1455 2011-09-01 20:46:13 <kjj> too many people have things that they want to do that require certain credentials to have partial access
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1458 2011-09-01 20:49:32 <kjj> shit, maybe I'll look at doing that as a project to get into things.
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1464 2011-09-01 21:02:49 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1465 2011-09-01 21:02:50 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #8: FIXED in 25 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/8/
1466 2011-09-01 21:03:04 <luke-jr> kjj: again, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
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1468 2011-09-01 21:08:06 <kjj> luke-jr: I looked at it briefly, but won't be able to read it all until later.  my first impression was that it involved adding many things, while my proposal requires adding very little
1469 2011-09-01 21:08:45 <kjj> commute time.  I'm out for a bit
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1472 2011-09-01 21:09:23 <gavinandresen> kjj:  I'd suggest writing an RPC permission system as a proxy "in front of" bitcoind.  Much quicker to code....
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1505 2011-09-01 22:08:04 <grubles> ok, im trying to start the bitcoin client in 64 bit ubuntu 11.04 and the window never shows up
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1509 2011-09-01 22:12:25 <jtaylor> which version of the client?
1510 2011-09-01 22:12:39 <freewil> grubles, sometimes the window takes a while to appear for me too
1511 2011-09-01 22:12:58 <freewil> shouldnt take longer than a minute though
1512 2011-09-01 22:13:03 <freewil> maybe 20 seconds sometimes
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1514 2011-09-01 22:13:33 <grubles> 0.3.24
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1516 2011-09-01 22:13:39 <grubles> jtaylor: ^
1517 2011-09-01 22:13:57 <grubles> freewil: it has been a while now
1518 2011-09-01 22:14:22 <grubles> i think it might be something to do with my videocard and/or X
1519 2011-09-01 22:14:23 <jtaylor> yes it takes ~ a minute for me, but I think with .22 it did not work at all
1520 2011-09-01 22:14:48 <freewil> grubles, you running ubuntu desktop?
1521 2011-09-01 22:14:57 <grubles> freewil: yes
1522 2011-09-01 22:15:21 <freewil> is this the first time running it?
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1524 2011-09-01 22:15:33 <grubles> no
1525 2011-09-01 22:15:56 <freewil> did you try killing it yet?
1526 2011-09-01 22:16:08 <grubles> yes
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1528 2011-09-01 22:16:25 <freewil> hm not sure what to tell you
1529 2011-09-01 22:16:30 <grubles> i start it from the shell and it never comes up
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1531 2011-09-01 22:16:59 <freewil> hows your bandwidth?
1532 2011-09-01 22:17:12 <jtaylor> how long have you waited?
1533 2011-09-01 22:17:16 <freewil> im just guessing here but i wonder if it's maybe trying to catch up with the blockchain
1534 2011-09-01 22:17:16 <grubles> good, i dont think it is that
1535 2011-09-01 22:17:18 <jtaylor> without killing it
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1538 2011-09-01 22:17:45 <grubles> jtaylor: atleast 5 minutes
1539 2011-09-01 22:17:59 <grubles> it has the blockchain downloaded already
1540 2011-09-01 22:18:11 <grubles> since i have been using this client before, just for some reason it doesnt come up anymore
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1542 2011-09-01 22:19:01 <freewil> you're not using -daemon are you?
1543 2011-09-01 22:19:24 <grubles> nope
1544 2011-09-01 22:19:29 <grubles> just ./bitcoin
1545 2011-09-01 22:19:50 <freewil> i would try specifying a diff datadir
1546 2011-09-01 22:19:55 <freewil> or -testnet
1547 2011-09-01 22:19:58 <freewil> see if that does anything
1548 2011-09-01 22:20:13 <freewil> and by diff datadir i mean an empty one
1549 2011-09-01 22:20:17 <grubles> it just says connect: Operation now in progress" in the console output
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1555 2011-09-01 22:23:14 <grubles> im pretty sure it has something to do with my video card driver or something
1556 2011-09-01 22:23:30 <grubles> because i borked my install yesterday trying to install a new ati driver version
1557 2011-09-01 22:23:51 <grubles> and had to boot into recovery mode to reconfigure X
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1559 2011-09-01 22:26:03 <freewil> as long as gnome or whatever works, bitcoin shouldn't have any problems i wouldn't think
1560 2011-09-01 22:26:35 <grubles> i agree
1561 2011-09-01 22:26:56 <grubles> but compiz isnt working anymore
1562 2011-09-01 22:27:35 <grubles> and since i figured it was that, i logged into "ubuntu classic no effects"
1563 2011-09-01 22:27:46 <grubles> but bitcoin still doesnt come up
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1566 2011-09-01 22:29:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is your pushpool testing stuff public?
1567 2011-09-01 22:29:46 <freewil> grubles, did you try searching the forum
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1571 2011-09-01 22:30:29 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nope
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1575 2011-09-01 22:40:09 <tcatm> jgarzik: do you know whether it would be possible for me to have r/w access on bitcoin.org or change the DNS record to point to github? gavin already agreed on changing the website
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1584 2011-09-01 22:48:11 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r2f4c30f / src/rpc.cpp : Fix bad merge: getaccountaddress was broken for new accounts - http://git.io/JkyVgw
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1599 2011-09-01 23:07:59 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * red7389e87ed6 cgminer/main.c: Put some sanity checks on the times that can be input.
1600 2011-09-01 23:08:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8b690b572235 cgminer/main.c: Give a verbose message when no active pools are found and pause before exiting.
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1608 2011-09-01 23:27:32 <jgarzik> tcatm: 1) I'm pretty sure it was Gavin that gave me r/w access to bitcoin.org, and 2) sirius controls bitcoin.org DNS, not even gavin has access to that AFAIK
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1615 2011-09-01 23:37:57 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * ra2a60080ff7f cgminer/main.c: Add verbose message when a GPU fails to initialise, and disable the correct GPU.
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1623 2011-09-01 23:48:02 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r1480ade27873 cgminer/sha256_cryptopp.c: Cryptopp asm32 was not correctly updated to the incremental nonce code so the hash counter was bogus.
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1634 2011-09-01 23:57:57 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd88ed358484e cgminer/configure.ac: Get rid of poorly executed curl check.