1 2011-09-08 00:01:33 <ymirhotfoot> ;;dice 6d2
   2 2011-09-08 00:01:33 <gribble> Error: Dice can't have fewer than 3 sides.
   3 2011-09-08 00:01:44 <ymirhotfoot> oi, how odd
   4 2011-09-08 00:01:51 <ymirhotfoot> ;;dice 4d3
   5 2011-09-08 00:01:52 <gribble> 1, 3, 3, and 2
   6 2011-09-08 00:02:03 <mtrlt> um. why 3? :S
   7 2011-09-08 00:02:07 <ymirhotfoot> ;;dice 4d3
   8 2011-09-08 00:02:07 <gribble> 2, 1, 3, and 1
   9 2011-09-08 00:02:09 <ymirhotfoot> ;;dice 4d3
  10 2011-09-08 00:02:09 <gribble> 3, 1, 1, and 3
  11 2011-09-08 00:02:29 <imsaguy> ;;flip
  12 2011-09-08 00:02:30 <gribble> I do not know about 'flip', but I do know about these similar topics: 'faq'
  13 2011-09-08 00:02:33 <ymirhotfoot> I just learned the syntax for this capability of the capable gribble
  14 2011-09-08 00:02:42 <ymirhotfoot> and so I am trying it out
  15 2011-09-08 00:02:45 <imsaguy> ymirhotfoot, you should play with gribble in #gribble
  16 2011-09-08 00:02:50 <ymirhotfoot> ;;faq
  17 2011-09-08 00:02:50 <gribble> See http://www.bitcoin.org/faq and http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=more_faqs
  18 2011-09-08 00:02:51 <mtrlt> it should accept a 2-sided die >_>
  19 2011-09-08 00:02:55 <mtrlt> (i.e. a coin)
  20 2011-09-08 00:02:56 <k9quaint> 3 sided dice look funny
  21 2011-09-08 00:03:03 <ymirhotfoot> Even a 1 sided die
  22 2011-09-08 00:03:14 <mtrlt> it's not liek you can have 3 sided dice in 3D either
  23 2011-09-08 00:03:31 <k9quaint> mtrlt: you can
  24 2011-09-08 00:03:37 <ymirhotfoot> Ah, hmmnh, hmmn,
  25 2011-09-08 00:03:52 <mtrlt> k9quaint: pic please :p
  26 2011-09-08 00:04:19 <k9quaint> google "3 sided die" and then click images
  27 2011-09-08 00:04:33 <mtrlt> yea
  28 2011-09-08 00:04:46 <mtrlt> okay, it's possible >_>
  29 2011-09-08 00:04:52 <mtrlt> dunno what i was thinking
  30 2011-09-08 00:05:01 <imsaguy> http://mathartfun.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/DiceDouble.jpg
  31 2011-09-08 00:05:18 <ymirhotfoot> imsaguy, thanks, will do
  32 2011-09-08 00:07:11 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  33 2011-09-08 00:09:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4bb6b3813474 cgminer/README: More readme docs.
  34 2011-09-08 00:09:02 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rc64c27fa6f27 cgminer/main.c: Only show longpoll received delayed message at verbose level.
  35 2011-09-08 00:09:02 <nanotube> ymirhotfoot: ,,coin
  36 2011-09-08 00:09:02 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rdf78f45dd928 cgminer/configure.ac: Latest glibc appears to want linking against -lm as well for dlopen.
  37 2011-09-08 00:09:02 <gribble> heads
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  53 2011-09-08 00:37:46 <ymirhotfoot> ah, nanotube, thanks, I will soon studay all the capabilities of Mr. Gribble.
  54 2011-09-08 00:39:22 <nanotube> heh
  55 2011-09-08 00:39:36 bittwist has joined
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  58 2011-09-08 00:39:39 <nanotube> ,,(bc,wiki gribble) is a good start
  59 2011-09-08 00:39:39 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble | Jun 12, 2011 ... gribble is a modified Supybot IRC bot, carrying some useful bitcoin-related ... You can also PM commands to gribble and it will PM back. ...
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  69 2011-09-08 01:09:02 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r7ea7f5f324c1 cgminer/ (adl.c main.c): Allow temperatures greater than 100 degrees.
  70 2011-09-08 01:09:03 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r9752704ebe23 cgminer/main.c: We should be passing a float for the remainder of the vddc values.
  71 2011-09-08 01:09:09 <diki> how can one obtain a list of ALL(yes, absolutely ALL) bitcoin addresses(unique ofc) that ever appeared in the blockchain>
  72 2011-09-08 01:09:10 <diki> ?
  73 2011-09-08 01:09:30 <diki> i know they were ~2 mill
  74 2011-09-08 01:10:19 <copumpkin> does the bdb prune empty addresses?
  75 2011-09-08 01:11:02 <phantomcircuit> no
  76 2011-09-08 01:11:18 SomeoneWeird has joined
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  78 2011-09-08 01:11:40 <copumpkin> that seems like it'd handle most addresses for diki, doesn't it?
  79 2011-09-08 01:12:05 SomeoneWeird has quit (Changing host)
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  82 2011-09-08 01:13:01 <diki> huh?
  83 2011-09-08 01:15:25 <diki> so, nobody knows how?
  84 2011-09-08 01:16:51 <copumpkin> I just suggested how
  85 2011-09-08 01:17:29 <copumpkin> maybe http://code.google.com/p/bitcointools/source/browse/trunk/dbdump.py?spec=svn6&r=6
  86 2011-09-08 01:18:09 <copumpkin> never really looked too closely at the data the bitcoin client stores
  87 2011-09-08 01:18:48 SomeoneWeird has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  94 2011-09-08 01:31:11 <phantomcircuit> diki, libbitcoin has an example client which will download all the data you would need into postgres
  95 2011-09-08 01:33:47 zapnap_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  96 2011-09-08 01:34:36 <diki> link to that?
  97 2011-09-08 01:34:37 <ymirhotfoot> The blockchain has already rendered into a useful annotated
  98 2011-09-08 01:34:46 <ymirhotfoot> proper database
  99 2011-09-08 01:34:53 <ymirhotfoot> and many analyses run
 100 2011-09-08 01:34:59 <diki> ymirhotfoot:??
 101 2011-09-08 01:35:25 <ymirhotfoot> by organizations which most Coiners
 102 2011-09-08 01:35:37 <ymirhotfoot> would not consider friends of ours
 103 2011-09-08 01:35:51 <ymirhotfoot> has already been
 104 2011-09-08 01:36:29 <ymirhotfoot> The recent Irish research shows what low funded academics can do.
 105 2011-09-08 01:36:56 <ymirhotfoot> But, of course the blockchain is available to all, and
 106 2011-09-08 01:37:20 <ymirhotfoot> we already have good simple inquiry engines, blockexplorer, etc..
 107 2011-09-08 01:37:40 EPiSKiNG- has joined
 108 2011-09-08 01:37:48 <diki> yes we do
 109 2011-09-08 01:37:50 <diki> and ?
 110 2011-09-08 01:38:18 <ymirhotfoot> Now for the eingenvectors!
 111 2011-09-08 01:38:26 <ymirhotfoot> misppeelsing above
 112 2011-09-08 01:38:39 <ymirhotfoot> and there is much to look at
 113 2011-09-08 01:38:55 <ymirhotfoot> trivial odd observations like that made by Krugman
 114 2011-09-08 01:39:04 abragin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 115 2011-09-08 01:39:23 <ymirhotfoot> are, well, laughable, in the poverty of the data thought about, and the scale of
 116 2011-09-08 01:39:30 <ymirhotfoot> conlusions drawn.
 117 2011-09-08 01:39:51 <ymirhotfoot> But indeed we actually have an experiment in money going on now.
 118 2011-09-08 01:40:00 <ymirhotfoot> and we have wonderful data,
 119 2011-09-08 01:40:24 <ymirhotfoot> and so far very few theorists of money have seriously looked at the data.
 120 2011-09-08 01:40:36 noagendamarket has joined
 121 2011-09-08 01:40:43 noagenda_ has joined
 122 2011-09-08 01:40:47 <ymirhotfoot> The two Irish students are to be commended for jumping in early and strong.
 123 2011-09-08 01:40:53 noagendamarket has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 124 2011-09-08 01:40:53 noagenda_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 125 2011-09-08 01:40:59 noagendamarket has joined
 126 2011-09-08 01:41:06 wasabi2 has joined
 127 2011-09-08 01:42:26 <diki> phantomcircuit:found the libbitcoin, but it needs to be compiled
 128 2011-09-08 01:42:30 <diki> and appears unix only
 129 2011-09-08 01:43:03 <phantomcircuit> are you trying to do serious development on windows?
 130 2011-09-08 01:43:09 <phantomcircuit> cause that's just adorable
 131 2011-09-08 01:43:26 <luke-jr> lol
 132 2011-09-08 01:43:45 <luke-jr> not quite the word I'd use
 133 2011-09-08 01:44:23 <diki> i am not developing anything
 134 2011-09-08 01:46:07 <diki> I tried opening the db with php, but for some reason i was getting errors i shouldnt be
 135 2011-09-08 01:46:16 <diki> with proper handlers ofc
 136 2011-09-08 01:47:40 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's because php barely can compile on windows
 137 2011-09-08 01:47:53 <phantomcircuit> did you know that to do it you need the windows driver kit?
 138 2011-09-08 01:47:54 <phantomcircuit> why?
 139 2011-09-08 01:47:58 <phantomcircuit> WHO THE FUCK KNOWS
 140 2011-09-08 01:48:32 <diki> erm
 141 2011-09-08 01:48:37 <diki> its already compiled lol
 142 2011-09-08 01:49:02 <diki> the only difference i see is that the dba handler is 4.8.24 and the source used in bitcoin is 4.8.30
 143 2011-09-08 01:50:15 <copumpkin> diki: just use the python stuff I linked to before
 144 2011-09-08 01:50:22 <copumpkin> you still need a bdb lib and binding though
 145 2011-09-08 01:50:28 <copumpkin> so you may be just as fucked :P not sure how well those work
 146 2011-09-08 01:50:29 <diki> i used it
 147 2011-09-08 01:50:43 <diki> thought it would be fast
 148 2011-09-08 01:50:46 abragin has joined
 149 2011-09-08 01:50:53 <diki> but searching the db for one address took minutes
 150 2011-09-08 01:50:57 <diki> and yielded no results
 151 2011-09-08 01:51:04 <copumpkin> searching how?
 152 2011-09-08 01:51:11 <diki> --search-block=string
 153 2011-09-08 01:51:21 <ymirhotfoot> and so the tools precipitate out of the primordial soup of Unix
 154 2011-09-08 01:51:22 <copumpkin> I wonder how that code is doing it
 155 2011-09-08 01:51:31 <diki> gavin knows :D
 156 2011-09-08 01:51:41 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: is the address the key in the bdb?
 157 2011-09-08 01:51:47 <copumpkin> or is it keyed by something else?
 158 2011-09-08 01:51:49 <phantomcircuit> i haven't a clue
 159 2011-09-08 01:52:07 <ymirhotfoot> something like above line was used by author of the In The Beginning Was the Command Line, and his name is, ah brain smooth today ...
 160 2011-09-08 01:52:15 <copumpkin> I'd expect it to be the key in that addr.dat
 161 2011-09-08 01:52:20 <copumpkin> but I'm too lazy to check
 162 2011-09-08 01:52:26 <copumpkin> so I'm sure diki can figure it out
 163 2011-09-08 01:52:27 <diki> isnt addr.dat just IPs?
 164 2011-09-08 01:52:34 <copumpkin> or whatever the database is
 165 2011-09-08 01:52:54 <copumpkin> why IPs?
 166 2011-09-08 01:53:02 <diki> if i could figure it out, i wouldnt be having thoughts of paying someone to write it for me
 167 2011-09-08 01:54:04 <diki> copumpkin:dunno, the python bitcointools displayed IPs
 168 2011-09-08 01:54:08 <diki> and tons of them too
 169 2011-09-08 01:54:10 <diki> i assumed nodes
 170 2011-09-08 01:58:15 <ymirhotfoot> Neal Stephenson
 171 2011-09-08 01:59:06 trqlala has joined
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 173 2011-09-08 02:00:03 jrmithdobbs has joined
 174 2011-09-08 02:00:11 <trqlala> been a while since I checked this channel,... I remember a discussion on the penny spending attack, how is it currently prevented? only through fees?
 175 2011-09-08 02:00:58 <imsaguy> *magic*
 176 2011-09-08 02:01:09 <trqlala> and why exactly do older versions than 0.3.24 harm the network?
 177 2011-09-08 02:01:39 <cjdelisle> net.cpp is a steaming pile of shit
 178 2011-09-08 02:01:44 <trqlala> I dont know why I didnt come up with it earlier but there is an obvious solution to the penny spending attack
 179 2011-09-08 02:01:52 <cjdelisle> not that it isn't in newer versions but it's a little better
 180 2011-09-08 02:02:12 <ymirhotfoot> please fogive ignorance
 181 2011-09-08 02:02:19 <ymirhotfoot> what is net.cpp?
 182 2011-09-08 02:02:23 <ymirhotfoot> what does it do?
 183 2011-09-08 02:02:29 <cjdelisle> it's a file in the source code
 184 2011-09-08 02:02:32 luke-jr_ has joined
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 186 2011-09-08 02:02:41 <cjdelisle> it connects to other nodes
 187 2011-09-08 02:02:43 <cjdelisle> badly
 188 2011-09-08 02:02:51 <ymirhotfoot> Who wrote it?
 189 2011-09-08 02:02:56 Ycros has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 190 2011-09-08 02:02:57 <trqlala> I also remember there was talk about porting to another gui framework... whats it now?
 191 2011-09-08 02:03:08 <cjdelisle> qt
 192 2011-09-08 02:03:15 <cjdelisle> and that's someone's project IDK who
 193 2011-09-08 02:03:20 TecnoBrat has quit (Quit: Bye!)
 194 2011-09-08 02:03:21 <ymirhotfoot> Is it still mainly Satoshi's code?
 195 2011-09-08 02:03:24 <cjdelisle> It'll probably get merged
 196 2011-09-08 02:03:40 <trqlala> so qt is not 'official' branch yet?
 197 2011-09-08 02:03:48 <cjdelisle> yea it's mostly Satoshi's. Hacked together quickly since he had a lot to do, etc etc etc.
 198 2011-09-08 02:03:58 <cjdelisle> correct
 199 2011-09-08 02:04:01 <ymirhotfoot> cjdelisle: what is the main defect in the way net.cpp connects?
 200 2011-09-08 02:04:14 Ycros has joined
 201 2011-09-08 02:04:20 <ymirhotfoot> Thanks, cjdelisle.
 202 2011-09-08 02:04:22 <trqlala> so except for fees the fragmented penny spending attack is not being prevented in other ways?
 203 2011-09-08 02:04:30 <cjdelisle> It doesn't relay "known good nodes" to other nodes
 204 2011-09-08 02:04:48 Aexoden has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 205 2011-09-08 02:04:48 <ymirhotfoot> Ah, yes.
 206 2011-09-08 02:04:50 TecnoBrat has joined
 207 2011-09-08 02:05:10 <ymirhotfoot> Some of these questions were already discussed before Satoshi's first code drop,
 208 2011-09-08 02:05:28 <ymirhotfoot> discussed on the cryptography list in late 2008.
 209 2011-09-08 02:05:33 <cjdelisle> and it doesn't help you check if you have your port open
 210 2011-09-08 02:06:16 <ymirhotfoot> The use of formal config files, partial orders, and constraint solvers remains un-appreciated.
 211 2011-09-08 02:06:43 <trqlala> ymirhotfoot: you mean model checking?
 212 2011-09-08 02:07:03 <ymirhotfoot> sure, that is a recent word for stuff like that
 213 2011-09-08 02:07:55 <trqlala> have you seen a model for parts of bitcoin protocol checked?
 214 2011-09-08 02:08:13 <ymirhotfoot> I'd love to, but I have not,
 215 2011-09-08 02:08:18 <trqlala> hmm same here
 216 2011-09-08 02:08:20 agricocb has joined
 217 2011-09-08 02:08:58 <trqlala> its too immediate code for me... perhaps satoshi did model checking, but then he didnt release enough info to gain the trust of cryptographers
 218 2011-09-08 02:09:02 <ymirhotfoot> and I myself have been doing just a tiny bit of studying so I can learn how it works, and yes,
 219 2011-09-08 02:09:23 <ymirhotfoot> a push should be made to aim for stuff near to formal model checking
 220 2011-09-08 02:09:28 <cjdelisle> nah, all of the algos are known and proven
 221 2011-09-08 02:09:44 <ymirhotfoot> sha256 good, I think that
 222 2011-09-08 02:09:46 <cjdelisle> I usually laugh at people when they invent their own crypto algo
 223 2011-09-08 02:09:59 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala meant the protocol/implementation.
 224 2011-09-08 02:09:59 KenArmitt has joined
 225 2011-09-08 02:10:18 <trqlala> i mean its all talk about secure bitcoin protocol, but I see zero formal verifications (not even attempts, and id be glad to see parts being checked, but nothing at all,... just waiting for the first flaw to show)
 226 2011-09-08 02:10:32 <ymirhotfoot> the basic bits, inner loops, signings, etc.. all bog standard nowadays
 227 2011-09-08 02:10:40 sha256 is now known as mabus
 228 2011-09-08 02:10:56 <ymirhotfoot> it is the Great Satoshi Blockchain that is new
 229 2011-09-08 02:11:09 <cjdelisle> It has been looked at by some security professionals and they found a number of "potential issues" but not one of them could actually be exploited.
 230 2011-09-08 02:11:27 <cjdelisle> It's not the best situation but it has gotten review.
 231 2011-09-08 02:11:30 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala, I am not worried in that direction, though more formality there would help,
 232 2011-09-08 02:11:46 <ymirhotfoot> I just want to see it laid out in a model I can grasp.
 233 2011-09-08 02:12:13 <gmaxwell> The usability of formal verification tools is overstated. Recursive function? Oops.. Too bad. can't prove anything about it.  Bignum? oops too bad, can't prove anything about it.  Pointer arithemetic. Oops too bad, can't prove anything about it.
 234 2011-09-08 02:12:23 <ymirhotfoot> Just a few hours ago I was thinking "Well crystallization, yes, the blockchain is perhaps an example.".
 235 2011-09-08 02:12:44 <ymirhotfoot> In general stat mech is important ;)
 236 2011-09-08 02:13:19 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, as I said, inner parts of less interest to me with respect to Bitcoin,
 237 2011-09-08 02:13:21 <trqlala> gmaxwell: formal verification tool *usage* is not an exact science, you have to *model* the software before checking it, dont expect it to prove/disprove security of elliptic curve signing
 238 2011-09-08 02:13:35 <ymirhotfoot> Graet Outer Loop Crystallization
 239 2011-09-08 02:13:40 <gmaxwell> The actual bitcoin algorithim itself is pretty much intutively correct on its face. There isn't much to prove about it, provided the cryptographic functions do what they're supposted to do. :)
 240 2011-09-08 02:13:41 <ymirhotfoot> of great interest
 241 2011-09-08 02:14:17 <ymirhotfoot> What are the constitutive equations of the medium bitcoind creates/live-in?
 242 2011-09-08 02:14:18 <gmaxwell> (see Satoshi's byzantine wifi crackers example)
 243 2011-09-08 02:14:24 <ymirhotfoot> Yes.
 244 2011-09-08 02:14:36 <ymirhotfoot> yes, well known to me.
 245 2011-09-08 02:14:39 <trqlala> gmaxwell: im more worried about the small details like formal verification on choosing another branch cut in hindsight (even the wiki displays situation hell on that topic)
 246 2011-09-08 02:15:04 surikator has quit (Quit: Computer is sleeping. I'm probably not.)
 247 2011-09-08 02:15:14 <ymirhotfoot> I am not clear on meaning of word "cut" here.
 248 2011-09-08 02:15:18 <trqlala> where can I find s's byzantine wifi crackers example?
 249 2011-09-08 02:15:19 <ymirhotfoot> Am newbie
 250 2011-09-08 02:15:46 <gmaxwell> http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09997.html
 251 2011-09-08 02:15:50 <ymirhotfoot> Look at discussion following satoshi's publoication in late 2008, let me look it up
 252 2011-09-08 02:16:21 <trqlala> i meant, later more POW appears on a side history of blocks that split of earlier
 253 2011-09-08 02:16:23 KenArmitt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 254 2011-09-08 02:17:02 <ymirhotfoot> http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09997.html
 255 2011-09-08 02:17:14 <gmaxwell> trqlala: that happens from time to time (block reorgs).
 256 2011-09-08 02:17:44 <ymirhotfoot> ah, gmaxwell is faster than I
 257 2011-09-08 02:17:48 <bx_> lookign for skilled web devs exp with js (ajax), php, mysql, etc PM me ...  Also looking for Mobile devs (android/iphone) pay and equity in large bitcoin products & games, along with Contract-by-contract for small biz clients. PM me, Thanks ! :)
 258 2011-09-08 02:17:54 <trqlala> gmaxwell: yes but the code handling that seems much less "intutively correct" to me
 259 2011-09-08 02:18:14 noagendamarket is now known as right_testicle
 260 2011-09-08 02:18:24 <trqlala> here I would feel safer with formal checking of block reorgs
 261 2011-09-08 02:18:29 <gmaxwell> trqlala: sure, the _code_ might be buggy (though its been pretty heavily tested), but validating a model doesn't actually validate the code.
 262 2011-09-08 02:18:42 <gmaxwell> And validating the code is probably not possible with existing validation tools.
 263 2011-09-08 02:18:47 right_testicle is now known as noagendamarket
 264 2011-09-08 02:19:06 <ymirhotfoot> Quote: <gmaxwell> The actual bitcoin algorithim itself is pretty much intutively
 265 2011-09-08 02:19:06 <ymirhotfoot> 	   correct on its face. There isn't much to prove about it, provided
 266 2011-09-08 02:19:06 <ymirhotfoot> 	   the cryptographic functions do what they're supposted to do. :)
 267 2011-09-08 02:19:06 <trqlala> one could validate parts
 268 2011-09-08 02:19:17 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 269 2011-09-08 02:19:32 <gmaxwell> (because, e.g. the reorg does BDB lookups to find blocks— nothing is going to formally validate something as complex as BDB)
 270 2011-09-08 02:19:59 <ymirhotfoot> Yes to quote, but, behind this main truth, there is actual stat mech, a family of stat mech models, whose behavior we might look at.
 271 2011-09-08 02:20:13 <ymirhotfoot> satoshi did some simulations, and
 272 2011-09-08 02:20:16 <trqlala> gmaxwell: thats exactly why a good model checker (the programmer who writes the model) would not use BDB code in the model...
 273 2011-09-08 02:20:27 <ymirhotfoot> I have a high opinion of satoshi's powers.
 274 2011-09-08 02:21:08 <ymirhotfoot> bdb is not to the point I think, gmaxwell, at least my point.
 275 2011-09-08 02:21:13 <gmaxwell> trqlala: we need things like BDB (or its complexity) to have an implementation which scales to the real world. If you make a toy implementation that can be checked but can't be used, what does it matter if its correct but the software everyone uses is wrong?
 276 2011-09-08 02:21:19 <ymirhotfoot> let us ignore bdb
 277 2011-09-08 02:21:20 <trqlala> he would (over)simplify the database stuff, just to find logical flaws in handling reorgs
 278 2011-09-08 02:21:34 <noagendamarket> wonder if bitcoin was satoshis first block chain
 279 2011-09-08 02:21:53 <noagendamarket> If there is another test one he abandoned
 280 2011-09-08 02:21:57 <ymirhotfoot> they are differnt pieces of engineering, with different tools to investigate behavior
 281 2011-09-08 02:21:57 <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: you mean if the current public chain was the first one he created? no obviously not.
 282 2011-09-08 02:22:04 <noagendamarket> yea
 283 2011-09-08 02:22:14 <ymirhotfoot> satsohi said he did simulations.
 284 2011-09-08 02:22:15 <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: the public chain was provably created ~24 hours before the public release.
 285 2011-09-08 02:22:21 <ymirhotfoot> I do not doubt him.
 286 2011-09-08 02:22:23 <trqlala> gmaxwell: *no* verification human or automated will give complete proof of security,... that does not mean we cant model important parts of its behaviour individually
 287 2011-09-08 02:22:27 <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: since he didn't write and test the software in 24 hours… ;)
 288 2011-09-08 02:22:41 <noagendamarket> maybe hes still growing the other one lol
 289 2011-09-08 02:23:00 <noagendamarket> like an alternate universe
 290 2011-09-08 02:23:11 <gmaxwell> trqlala: I don't know what to say— I've spent weeks of time with frama-c formally validating code far simpler than what we're talking about and I'm doubtful to the usefulness of the approach on bitcoin.
 291 2011-09-08 02:23:37 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, I am nottalking about that level.
 292 2011-09-08 02:23:46 <trqlala> ymirhotfoot: sure I think he did simulations, he shows results in his paper, but thats very elementary probability simulation, not formal verification of protocols etc
 293 2011-09-08 02:23:49 <gmaxwell> (the reason for the ~24 hour delay is that it probably took him that long to solve the genesis block)
 294 2011-09-08 02:23:59 <ymirhotfoot> rather a family of models, with say 6 parameters, and some simulations
 295 2011-09-08 02:24:17 <ymirhotfoot> stat mech network models
 296 2011-09-08 02:24:22 <gmaxwell> ymirhotfoot: I'm talking to you and trqlala and you're concerned about different things.
 297 2011-09-08 02:24:24 <noagendamarket> http://twitter.com/#!/bitcoinmedia/status/111617120395214849  <-- retweet
 298 2011-09-08 02:24:33 <ymirhotfoot> I am not much interested in bugs in bitcoind.
 299 2011-09-08 02:24:37 <trqlala> gmaxwell: is it correct that currently only fees and possibly ineffectiveness prevent penny attack?
 300 2011-09-08 02:24:49 <gmaxwell> ymirhotfoot: for you I'm poingint out that the basic algorithim is intutively correct, and his paper already did the intresting analysis.
 301 2011-09-08 02:25:35 <gmaxwell> trqlala: 'only' ?  I don't see why you say only, it turns the act of holding bitcoin still into a reusable proof of work system. Other than the usablity warts its a pretty excellent measure.
 302 2011-09-08 02:25:49 <ymirhotfoot> Yes, as I mention, I know Satoshi has both foram estimates in his paper, and he did some simulations, but there is stuff to be done today, as always
 303 2011-09-08 02:26:01 <ymirhotfoot> funding main impediment to human advance
 304 2011-09-08 02:26:16 <ymirhotfoot> foram -> formal
 305 2011-09-08 02:26:38 <gmaxwell> trqlala: basically to make a free txn you must hold 1 BTC still for 24 hours (or a linear equal, e.g. 2 btc for 12 hours).
 306 2011-09-08 02:26:44 <trqlala> gmaxwell: lots of people were drawn to bitcoin because small transactions is a huge gap in transaction market, fees suddenly make it much less interesting
 307 2011-09-08 02:27:07 <gmaxwell> If you don't meet that criteria, or you have outputs smaller than 0.01 you have to pay 0.0005 BTC per transaction which makes attacks expensive fast.
 308 2011-09-08 02:27:09 <phantomcircuit> the fees are tiny
 309 2011-09-08 02:27:28 <trqlala> gmaxwell: so there ARE other methods i.e. the one you just mentioned
 310 2011-09-08 02:27:41 <gmaxwell> trqlala: Hm? I consider it one method.
 311 2011-09-08 02:27:50 <trqlala> are there more?
 312 2011-09-08 02:27:58 <ymirhotfoot> As I said, no disagreement, gmaxwell.  But stability against competitors might one worthwhile thing to look at, "evolutionarily stable strategy"s might be conside red.
 313 2011-09-08 02:29:33 <trqlala> gmaxwell: doesnt it make more sense to require proof of work per transaction (based on last block), this way people with tight budgets can spend soon after receiving
 314 2011-09-08 02:29:48 <ymirhotfoot> question of fees mainly comes in later
 315 2011-09-08 02:30:06 <ymirhotfoot> after we have working subsystems for various things,
 316 2011-09-08 02:30:12 <gmaxwell> trqlala: no because that would divert computational power from the whole system. bitcoins themselves are fixated, reusuabl proof of work.
 317 2011-09-08 02:30:12 <trqlala> itd be easy to verify (sha takes much less time than elliptic curve sigs)
 318 2011-09-08 02:30:33 <ymirhotfoot> working and are convincing to Old World, that is, pre-Bitcoin, merchants,
 319 2011-09-08 02:31:01 Phil` has quit (Quit: ircN 8.00 for mIRC (20100904) - www.ircN.org)
 320 2011-09-08 02:31:01 <ymirhotfoot> or our stuff is so good, new merchants come in and take away business from non-bitcoin using merchants
 321 2011-09-08 02:31:47 fnord0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 322 2011-09-08 02:32:11 <trqlala> gmaxwell: thats not convincing, each transaction has elliptic curve sigs, the extra POW validation would cost nothing (a single combined hash), only the sender would have to deliver POW
 323 2011-09-08 02:32:30 <gmaxwell> trqlala: Not the validation, the computation.
 324 2011-09-08 02:32:57 <gmaxwell> (the sender)
 325 2011-09-08 02:33:07 <trqlala> which computation? the proof of work? thats on the burden of the sender, how does that divert computational power from the whole system?
 326 2011-09-08 02:33:18 <gmaxwell> And people who are not attacking should already have aged bitcoins. Attacking itself diminishes your supply of aged bitcoins, but doesn't diminish your cpu power.
 327 2011-09-08 02:33:32 <trqlala> and it would be much lower than the POW for block generation of course
 328 2011-09-08 02:33:36 <noagendamarket> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business/2011/09/paul-krugman-incites-bitcoin-cyber-geek-infighting/42188/
 329 2011-09-08 02:33:43 <Diablo-D3> who?
 330 2011-09-08 02:33:50 <Diablo-D3> I wish the media would quit making people up
 331 2011-09-08 02:33:59 <Diablo-D3> theres no such person
 332 2011-09-08 02:34:03 <gmaxwell> trqlala: if its sufficiently lower then it's completely ineffective as a security measure.
 333 2011-09-08 02:34:15 <ymirhotfoot> When will the Scientific American article appear?
 334 2011-09-08 02:34:19 huk has joined
 335 2011-09-08 02:35:05 <gmaxwell> trqlala: look at it this way: It's _already_ a ontime pow system: you can do the computation to mine the bitcoin that you use for fees and/or standing balance.
 336 2011-09-08 02:35:23 KenArmitt has joined
 337 2011-09-08 02:35:44 <gmaxwell> trqlala: if you use a totally different pow its either much cheaper, in which case not as secure, or its diverting power from being used to create the security of the overall blockchain.
 338 2011-09-08 02:35:44 wardearia has joined
 339 2011-09-08 02:36:19 <trqlala> sufficiently lower would still be a very effective security measure, youd need MANY transaction POWs to cripple the network compared to the steady x times as fast as block generation
 340 2011-09-08 02:37:11 <gmaxwell> trqlala: we can make the anti-dos costs as low as we like by lowering the priority required and/or reducing the minfee.
 341 2011-09-08 02:37:27 <ymirhotfoot> I see some parameters that should be defined in the implicit models under discussion bygmaxwell and trqlala:
 342 2011-09-08 02:37:28 <trqlala> and the same for POW sending
 343 2011-09-08 02:37:36 <gmaxwell> (though recent expirence has show that it shouldn't be any lower than it currently is, I think)
 344 2011-09-08 02:37:48 <ymirhotfoot> what is the statistical shape of the two networks under discussion?
 345 2011-09-08 02:38:04 <gmaxwell> trqlala: sure, but using bitcoin as the mechenism for pow here has two important properties:
 346 2011-09-08 02:38:05 <ymirhotfoot> how strong are the attackers in the two cases?
 347 2011-09-08 02:38:07 <ymirhotfoot> etc...
 348 2011-09-08 02:38:35 <gmaxwell> (1) you can let people use their standing balances to avoid paying fees (attackers don't have standing balances, by virtue of the attack, so this differentiates many normal users from attackers in a lower cost way)
 349 2011-09-08 02:38:49 <ymirhotfoot> Heree Leibniz's old dream has come partly true:
 350 2011-09-08 02:38:50 <gmaxwell> (2) every bit of cpu time spend on the blockchain increases its security.
 351 2011-09-08 02:39:04 <ymirhotfoot> make up your two competeing modesl, and
 352 2011-09-08 02:39:09 <ymirhotfoot> run the simulations
 353 2011-09-08 02:39:20 <trqlala> it seems much harder to me too cripple the network through creating MANY POW transactions compared to hijacking block generation, even for modest txn POW...
 354 2011-09-08 02:39:44 <ymirhotfoot> Numbers, trqlala, then
 355 2011-09-08 02:39:51 <ymirhotfoot> Numbers, gmaxwell
 356 2011-09-08 02:40:08 <gmaxwell> trqlala: err.. I don't see why you think that.
 357 2011-09-08 02:40:29 <ymirhotfoot> we'll teach gribble to run some various styles of network evolution models.
 358 2011-09-08 02:41:17 <gmaxwell> (nor do I see how that has has anything to do with the form the pow takes)
 359 2011-09-08 02:41:17 <trqlala> gmaxwell: the fundament of our discussion revolves around how many attacker penny txns / block would cripple the network
 360 2011-09-08 02:41:47 <gmaxwell> trqlala: oh, well for one "cripple the network" is probably the wrong threat at least right now.
 361 2011-09-08 02:42:15 <trqlala> so the fees/sleeptime may be lowered? :)
 362 2011-09-08 02:42:20 <gmaxwell> The bigger risk now is premature blockchain bloat— making it too costly to run full validating nodes before bitcoin has matured enough to fund its operation at full scale.
 363 2011-09-08 02:42:38 <ymirhotfoot> One could teach a good one year course in stat mech using Peter Whittle's book networks in stochastic equilibrium, and
 364 2011-09-08 02:42:50 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 365 2011-09-08 02:42:54 <ymirhotfoot> with Bitcoin as an example
 366 2011-09-08 02:43:01 <ymirhotfoot> Bitcoin and Bitcoin like things
 367 2011-09-08 02:44:04 <trqlala> gmaxwell: I still dont see how you can claim that having POW sending would reduce security of the network, most senders of money are not miners anyway
 368 2011-09-08 02:44:18 <gmaxwell> The second biggest risk now is DOS against the maximum block size. E.g. filling the memory pool with junk txn so that no ones free transactions go through in reasonable time, making bitcoin painful to use for many people.  This would only take a sustained rate of a couple transactions per second.
 369 2011-09-08 02:44:42 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 370 2011-09-08 02:44:51 <trqlala> and algorithmic complexity dictates that the crypto signing with elliptic curves scales much faster than a constant time hash function
 371 2011-09-08 02:44:51 <gmaxwell> trqlala: it doesn't matter _who_ the miner is.
 372 2011-09-08 02:44:56 <ymirhotfoot> am newbie, but I thought gmaxwell's attack, or something near, seemede maybe possible.
 373 2011-09-08 02:45:26 <ymirhotfoot> What does signing have to do with Bitcoin Classic here?
 374 2011-09-08 02:45:26 <gmaxwell> trqlala: The reason it doesn't matter is that when btc is the POW it increases demand for BTC which increases mining.
 375 2011-09-08 02:45:30 <Diablo-D3> no, gmaxwell still hasnt discoverd a useful attack
 376 2011-09-08 02:45:35 [7] has joined
 377 2011-09-08 02:45:44 <Diablo-D3> everything still requires using THE ATTACK, which is basically nigh impossible now.
 378 2011-09-08 02:45:45 <trqlala> gmaxwell: if the sender is not a miner the cpu cycles wasted on POW does not influence the blockchain security
 379 2011-09-08 02:45:50 <ymirhotfoot> Diablo-D3, I am glad to hear this.
 380 2011-09-08 02:46:14 <ymirhotfoot> Is there a three line, suitable for ignorant newbie, demostartion of why the attack fails?
 381 2011-09-08 02:46:17 <Diablo-D3> THE ATTACK, n., using more than 50% hashing power than the rest of the network, and the network is at 14 thash/sec
 382 2011-09-08 02:46:21 * luke-jr_ notes Eligius has POW-sending planned for rollout within the week
 383 2011-09-08 02:46:25 <Diablo-D3> or several thousand 5850s.
 384 2011-09-08 02:46:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "filling the memory pool"   <<--  THAT is the attack, actually
 385 2011-09-08 02:46:29 bittwist has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 386 2011-09-08 02:46:30 <gmaxwell> trqlala: yes it does, because they're not buying those bitcoins that would be used in fees from miners, they're not giving those bitcoins back to miners in the form of fees, and they're not increasing demand for bitcoin by keeping standing balances.
 387 2011-09-08 02:46:39 <jgarzik> TX cache is unbounded at present
 388 2011-09-08 02:46:42 <trqlala> gmaxwell: so now btc as POW is not about security at all but a bitcoin economic decision, trying to increase BTC demand?
 389 2011-09-08 02:46:44 <ymirhotfoot> Well, that attack, yes, but .... gmaxwell, step in if you want
 390 2011-09-08 02:46:58 <gmaxwell> trqlala: ::cries::
 391 2011-09-08 02:47:19 <ymirhotfoot> jgarzik, so something is less dfended than it should be, or other way round?
 392 2011-09-08 02:47:22 <luke-jr_> oh
 393 2011-09-08 02:47:25 <luke-jr_> I see what jgarzik is saying
 394 2011-09-08 02:47:51 <luke-jr_> POW-sending effectively eliminates the only guaranteed* Bitcoin market: transaction fees
 395 2011-09-08 02:47:56 <gmaxwell> trqlala: I'm only pointing out that with BTC as the (reusuable)POW unit it ultimately means that whatever N units of computation are spent on POW are ultimately put into blockchain security.
 396 2011-09-08 02:47:56 <trqlala> also, if it was a computational POW, then a rich attacker has no advantage over a poor attacker
 397 2011-09-08 02:48:06 <gmaxwell> Even if the user is not a miner.
 398 2011-09-08 02:48:34 <gmaxwell> trqlala: haha. Sure they do, they buy computing time to attack (perhaps from establsihed miners). Or steal it.
 399 2011-09-08 02:48:41 <ymirhotfoot> I am sure I do not understand what trqlala is proposing.
 400 2011-09-08 02:48:55 <trqlala> gmaxwell: you mean that fees are there to support mining?
 401 2011-09-08 02:49:17 <gmaxwell> trqlala: No, they currently prevent DOS attacks.
 402 2011-09-08 02:49:25 <trqlala> thats what I completely agree with, but preventing penny attack should be done cryptographically not financially
 403 2011-09-08 02:49:34 <jgarzik> TX cache and CPU DoS are the current near-term worries
 404 2011-09-08 02:49:35 <gmaxwell> trqlala: it's fungable.
 405 2011-09-08 02:49:49 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala, ah the subtlety of most working financial systems,
 406 2011-09-08 02:50:00 <ymirhotfoot> some peieces are logically not like other peieces.
 407 2011-09-08 02:50:08 <gmaxwell> trqlala: To prevnt the attack N units of CPU must be spent, N depends on the wealth of the attackers (and the value they gain on attacking)
 408 2011-09-08 02:50:10 <ymirhotfoot> Satoshi is a subtle being.
 409 2011-09-08 02:50:15 <trqlala> wait a minute: i am NOT proposing do away with fees, I am proposing not to prevent penny attack with fees
 410 2011-09-08 02:50:45 <gmaxwell> trqlala: if N takes the form of bitcoin, then those cycles make bitcoin more secure overall by encouraging more mining.  If N is something else, it works the same for POW purposes, but doesn't have the side benefit.
 411 2011-09-08 02:50:52 cronopio has quit (Quit: leaving)
 412 2011-09-08 02:50:58 c00w has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 413 2011-09-08 02:51:22 bittwist has joined
 414 2011-09-08 02:51:51 osmosis has joined
 415 2011-09-08 02:52:04 <noagendamarket> fees will support miners after the reward runs out. How can you do away with them ?
 416 2011-09-08 02:52:15 <gmaxwell> This is true no matter what N is.  If you make N executations of SHA1() then I can _still_ pay miners to stop mining and to instead compute attack POWs for me.  Either way the attack costs X bitcoin at the end of the day, X is determined by how big the users and developers have agreed to set N to.
 417 2011-09-08 02:52:23 <trqlala> gmaxwell: so you claim that impulse response of an attack on the system through financial motivation is so quick that they will buy and install new hardware fast enough to prevent the attack?
 418 2011-09-08 02:52:51 <ymirhotfoot> wait I see some words I understand!
 419 2011-09-08 02:52:56 <gmaxwell> trqlala: we're using our installed base of hardware already... the bitcoin infrastructure.
 420 2011-09-08 02:53:05 <trqlala> noagendamarket: none of us is proposing to do away with fees to reward transaction processing
 421 2011-09-08 02:53:40 vragnaroda has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 422 2011-09-08 02:53:40 <gmaxwell> noagendamarket: trqlala thinks that instead of using coin aging and fees to prevent penny DOS we should instead use bitcoin-orthorgonal hashcash.
 423 2011-09-08 02:53:46 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala, the error you refer is foundational o the "free market" "deregulate" project, which has led to many bad things.
 424 2011-09-08 02:53:46 <osmosis> Do transactions have a timestamp associated with them in the blockchain? Or is it just new blocks that are timestamped?
 425 2011-09-08 02:53:56 <trqlala> ymirhotfoot: your obvious physicist/engineer/mathematician, I guess the former since you referenced statistical mechanics
 426 2011-09-08 02:53:59 <ymirhotfoot> Often economists do not include reaction times.
 427 2011-09-08 02:54:26 <ymirhotfoot> Some day counterbalancing forces will come and stop damage.
 428 2011-09-08 02:54:29 <gmaxwell> I'm pointing out that the two are fundimentally equal except using bitcoin as the proof of work has a collateral benefit of increasing the security of bitcoin overall.
 429 2011-09-08 02:54:30 <trqlala> gmaxwell how is it bitcoin orthogonal?
 430 2011-09-08 02:54:48 <gmaxwell> trqlala: not part of the bitcoin distributed algorithim (not mining).
 431 2011-09-08 02:55:54 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala, these days I mainly do a little Perl
 432 2011-09-08 02:55:59 <ymirhotfoot> in Scheme.
 433 2011-09-08 02:56:05 <gmaxwell> osmosis: blocks themselves.
 434 2011-09-08 02:56:16 <trqlala> gmaxwell: taxing small highturnover transactions in the valid economy in general will also promote mining and hence security, my problem is that the method is indiscriminate and just tax
 435 2011-09-08 02:56:17 <noagendamarket> well no one uses a cpu for hashing anymore...you could do that somehow
 436 2011-09-08 02:56:26 <gmaxwell> osmosis: in essense the blockchain is what gives consensus times to the transactions.
 437 2011-09-08 02:56:35 <osmosis> gmaxwell, got it
 438 2011-09-08 02:56:53 <noagendamarket> like hashcash before you can send a tx
 439 2011-09-08 02:56:57 <noagendamarket> ?
 440 2011-09-08 02:57:03 <IO-> is BlueMatt ever around anymore?
 441 2011-09-08 02:57:08 dvide has quit ()
 442 2011-09-08 02:57:12 <gmaxwell> trqlala: it's not indiscriminate because it gives aged inputs a free pass which strikes _directly_ to a fundimental difference between most users and all attackers.
 443 2011-09-08 02:57:39 <trqlala> i obviously mean indiscriminate with valid vs attack transactions
 444 2011-09-08 02:57:48 <gmaxwell> trqlala: and there is no real escape otherwise. Requiring N units of computation is exactly equal to requring X bitcoins where X is the amount you could have mined instead if you were mining.
 445 2011-09-08 02:58:19 <ymirhotfoot> BlueMatt was here yeasterday, or maybe in #bitcoin.  I spoke with him briefly.
 446 2011-09-08 02:58:32 <IO-> thanks
 447 2011-09-08 02:58:45 <trqlala> gmaxwell that too is indiscriminate: a valid user does not have a mining rig and just wants to sends money around, hes not going to wait ages until he mines a block just so he can pay his bitcoin taxes
 448 2011-09-08 02:58:59 <gmaxwell> trqlala: it's not though. Most regular usage doesn't have super high turnaround and a zero balance. All attackers do.  A _few_ non attack applications do, unfortunately, but then they get the fees which is completely isomorphic to a local pow except for the collateral benefit.
 449 2011-09-08 02:59:05 <gmaxwell> trqlala: almost no one mines solo.
 450 2011-09-08 02:59:21 <gmaxwell> trqlala: you can mine and recieve bitcoins on any computer.
 451 2011-09-08 02:59:22 <ymirhotfoot> THE SOLO MINER
 452 2011-09-08 02:59:30 <ymirhotfoot> COMING TO SYFY
 453 2011-09-08 02:59:34 <ymirhotfoot> THIS WINTER
 454 2011-09-08 02:59:39 <trqlala> if you look at the real world, people live with tight budgets, the large fraction of users just comes by with his income
 455 2011-09-08 03:00:27 <gmaxwell> trqlala: I think you might be overestimating how much aging is required— but regardless ignore that.  Because a straight POW can not improve that in the slighest.
 456 2011-09-08 03:00:52 <ymirhotfoot> trqlala, I know I do not grasp your proposal, but, what does poverty of a person using/mining bitcoin have to do with it.
 457 2011-09-08 03:00:54 <gmaxwell> People always have the option of just paying a fee to have a txn. Paying a pow would be no imrpovement.
 458 2011-09-08 03:01:00 <trqlala> why is it so hard for you to imagine that valid internet transactions will typically be small value and high turnover
 459 2011-09-08 03:01:02 <gmaxwell> er improvement.
 460 2011-09-08 03:01:26 <trqlala> ok whatever
 461 2011-09-08 03:02:00 <ymirhotfoot> ad micropayments: most electric companies and individuals arrange their business by means of a systm of micropayments.
 462 2011-09-08 03:02:21 <ymirhotfoot> I have never understood why folks often used to say "micropayments will never work".
 463 2011-09-08 03:02:24 <ymirhotfoot> they do.
 464 2011-09-08 03:03:02 <gmaxwell> trqlala: If the average txn is is .1 BTC and you spend 1 BTC/day, then you need to have a balance of 10x your daily spending in order to avoid paying fees on average. And if you do pay, it's about a half cent in cost.
 465 2011-09-08 03:03:11 <gmaxwell> I don't think thats especially burdensome.
 466 2011-09-08 03:03:22 <gmaxwell> But regardless, pow still can't improve it at all.
 467 2011-09-08 03:03:30 tKM has quit (K-Lined)
 468 2011-09-08 03:04:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: I've got a bussines idea for you.
 469 2011-09-08 03:04:33 <trqlala> how about this: what if ever the sleep time of coins or the fees prove to be too small, ... who will change the value in time? after the attack?
 470 2011-09-08 03:04:53 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: ?
 471 2011-09-08 03:05:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: setup your pool so that modified bitcoin clients can connect and mine for free. But in doing to they accrew a balance with you, which you'll use to pay transaction fees for txn they send you directly.
 472 2011-09-08 03:06:08 <gmaxwell> (well there is no 'pay' you mine those txn for free, because they came from a use that mined for you)
 473 2011-09-08 03:06:08 trqlala has left ()
 474 2011-09-08 03:06:16 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, have you been converted to trqlala's view?
 475 2011-09-08 03:06:25 <gmaxwell> ymirhotfoot: No.
 476 2011-09-08 03:06:35 <ymirhotfoot> not even a little bit?
 477 2011-09-08 03:06:48 <ymirhotfoot> OK
 478 2011-09-08 03:07:00 <gmaxwell> Oh well, I wasn't in total disagreement with him to begin with.
 479 2011-09-08 03:07:14 <ymirhotfoot> ;)
 480 2011-09-08 03:07:26 <gmaxwell> The point he made that right now mining isn't equally distributed enough is a real issue, and a much bigger one than this subject.
 481 2011-09-08 03:07:36 <ymirhotfoot> I do not understand this issue/issues very well,
 482 2011-09-08 03:07:43 <ymirhotfoot> ah your last just came in.
 483 2011-09-08 03:08:00 <gmaxwell> the quantization of solo mining means that "stop whining about fees, just mine a little and its quickly paid for"  isn't currently a good answer.
 484 2011-09-08 03:08:02 <ymirhotfoot> I nowthink I have a dim hazy view of this nexus of issiues.
 485 2011-09-08 03:08:14 <ymirhotfoot> thanks, gmaxwell and trqlala!
 486 2011-09-08 03:08:30 HaltingState has left ("Leaving")
 487 2011-09-08 03:09:08 <gmaxwell> Mining on random desktop cpus would _easily_ pay a random users complete transaction fee burden and then some, even assuming they were living hand to mouth.
 488 2011-09-08 03:09:36 <gmaxwell> But there is an interesting question about how to get them mining, and how to do so without creating more tiny transactions.
 489 2011-09-08 03:09:48 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, last of interest to me.  OK
 490 2011-09-08 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> I pointed out that its economically equal if they mine or someone else does,  but a lot of people would probably feel better about doing it themselves rather than paying (probably because their CPU is already there and idle)
 491 2011-09-08 03:10:41 <ymirhotfoot> I must be away from the sctreen for a bit, but I will let my irc agaent run.
 492 2011-09-08 03:10:48 <gmaxwell> so thus my suggestion to luke (who is a rather creative mining pool operator)
 493 2011-09-08 03:14:51 <ymirhotfoot> just one thing, there are markets where if you have many seats on the exchange, the chance of winning soon is greater,
 494 2011-09-08 03:15:38 <ymirhotfoot> but no matter how many your expectation is the same, see recent Massachusetts state games
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 496 2011-09-08 03:16:01 <ymirhotfoot> perhaps gmaxwell's suggested protocol is a like game?
 497 2011-09-08 03:16:46 <ymirhotfoot> ah, no, OK, you assign bitcoins mined by hashes done, so no.
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 499 2011-09-08 03:19:03 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r9b5cd618868a cgminer/ (README adl.c main.c miner.h): Implement accepting a range of engine speeds as well to allow a lower limit to be specified on the command line.
 500 2011-09-08 03:22:18 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: miners can submit a transaction id with their difficulty-256 shares to get whitelisted without a txn fee
 501 2011-09-08 03:25:41 wolfspraul has joined
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 503 2011-09-08 03:29:44 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: ohh. :) down side of that is that it doesn't let you store value.  e.g. I can't accrue value with you and then make a txn without waiting.
 504 2011-09-08 03:29:59 <luke-jr_> true
 505 2011-09-08 03:30:14 <luke-jr_> the bigger problem IMO is getting a bitcoin client to send them w/o a fee
 506 2011-09-08 03:30:15 <luke-jr_> ;)
 507 2011-09-08 03:35:07 <gmaxwell> if bitcoin ever gets some kind of plugin system, istm this would be a pretty obvious plugin. Add some plugin and you'll do some CPU mining to pay your TXN fees.
 508 2011-09-08 03:39:01 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rb50041c88089 cgminer/ (README adl.c main.c): Allow per-device fan ranges to be set and use them in auto-fan mode.
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 516 2011-09-08 04:04:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rd6f3bd056441 cgminer/adl.c: Display which GPU has overheated in warning message.
 517 2011-09-08 04:04:02 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * re0a9f1aae387 cgminer/ (adl.c adl.h main.c): Allow temperature targets to be set on a per-card basis on the command line.
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 532 2011-09-08 04:33:58 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r355b24cef35b cgminer/README: Document the temperature command line changes.
 533 2011-09-08 04:34:00 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r0e1c2916242d cgminer/adl.c: Display fan range in autofan status.
 534 2011-09-08 04:34:01 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rb7d817812c43 cgminer/adl.c: Setting the hysteresis is unlikely to be useful on the fly and doesn't belong in the per-gpu submenu.
 535 2011-09-08 04:34:02 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rf1cf79ae9d31 cgminer/main.c: With many cards, the GPU summaries can be quite long so use a terse output line when showing them all.
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 537 2011-09-08 04:38:11 <bx_> lookign for skilled web devs exp with js (ajax), php, mysql, etc PM me ...  Also looking for Mobile devs (android/iphone) pay and equity in large bitcoin products & games, along with Contract-by-contract for small biz clients. PM me, Thanks ! :)
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 542 2011-09-08 04:43:59 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r4b43efceca03 cgminer/main.c: Use a terser device status line to show fan RPM as well when available.
 543 2011-09-08 04:47:28 <osmosis> How does this apply to bitcoin?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States#Current_status
 544 2011-09-08 04:48:49 <gmaxwell> osmosis: bitcoin (at least current released versions) do not use any encryption at all.
 545 2011-09-08 04:49:29 <gmaxwell> It uses authentication, but export restrictions generally explicitly exclude cryptographic authentication.
 546 2011-09-08 04:52:43 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 547 2011-09-08 04:57:16 <cjdelisle> and ofc nobody cares about exporting crypto nor has for a long time
 548 2011-09-08 05:00:28 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: ITAR is still enforced against commercial entities.
 549 2011-09-08 05:02:00 <cjdelisle> yea but not against open source hippies
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 553 2011-09-08 05:10:54 <bonsaikitten> that's why you do like OpenBSD and develop the crypto bits in civilized countries
 554 2011-09-08 05:10:59 RazielZ has joined
 555 2011-09-08 05:11:00 <bonsaikitten> import is not an issue ...
 556 2011-09-08 05:12:41 Daniel0108 has joined
 557 2011-09-08 05:13:31 <Eliel> cjdelisle: well, it's a bit obviously useless to try to enforce it against open source. Easy enough to route around it.
 558 2011-09-08 05:15:48 <cjdelisle> yea and it just makes no sense anymore, when does a hash function become a cryptographic function? when you add the XOR to it?
 559 2011-09-08 05:16:07 <cjdelisle> just old sillyness
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 567 2011-09-08 06:17:43 <bx_> lookign for skilled web devs exp with js (ajax), php, mysql, etc PM me ...  Also looking for Mobile devs (android/iphone) pay and equity in large bitcoin products & games, along with Contract-by-contract for small biz clients. PM me, Thanks ! :)
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 571 2011-09-08 06:22:18 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: meh, it's not silly.
 572 2011-09-08 06:22:55 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: Policy goal: Keep random people defending their country from a US invasion from getting cheap encrypted radios that the US can't monitor.
 573 2011-09-08 06:23:11 <gmaxwell> Policy solution: regulate large scale commercial transactions of cryptographic devices.
 574 2011-09-08 06:23:37 <gmaxwell> Does it matter that _in theory_ these people in a warzone could somehow managed to macguyver their own radios with open source and duct tape? No.
 575 2011-09-08 06:24:05 <gmaxwell> Does it matter that they could sneak a couple radios in from other countries? No, not really.
 576 2011-09-08 06:24:21 <gmaxwell> Policy doesn't have to be completely effective to be effective enough.
 577 2011-09-08 06:25:12 <gmaxwell> Does DRM stop you from copying a game? Probably not. Does it stop my 67 year old mother (an avid WoW player), absolutely— even the smallest friction is enough to drive her to buy rather than download.
 578 2011-09-08 06:26:30 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, it is your tone of sweet reasonableness that, if the other side is good, will cause them to come to your house early in the roundup.
 579 2011-09-08 06:26:40 <bonsaikitten> gmaxwell: but if any one person manages to circumvent it it's liberated for everyone
 580 2011-09-08 06:27:02 <bonsaikitten> DRM doesn't work, that's the funny bit
 581 2011-09-08 06:27:43 <gmaxwell> bonsaikitten: it's not— because the crack shows up on random sites, some of which are of ill-repute and ship malware too. My mom can't tell the sites apart... figuring out what are good trustworthy sources and what aren't is not a costless operation, and because its unlawful it must remain underground.
 582 2011-09-08 06:28:17 <ymirhotfoot> But DRM, indeed Palladium, does work on Apples hand helds, for most of these devices out there.
 583 2011-09-08 06:28:33 <ymirhotfoot> Nothing gets on those devices except what Apple allows.
 584 2011-09-08 06:28:45 <ymirhotfoot> Apple, after has root on the devices.
 585 2011-09-08 06:28:55 <bonsaikitten> gmaxwell: and it shows up on chinese and russian and indian markets where you can buy the DVD for ~2$
 586 2011-09-08 06:28:56 <ymirhotfoot> And root hath its privileges.
 587 2011-09-08 06:30:03 <gmaxwell> bonsaikitten: 99% of the buyers in those markets would never have bought at the whole price. In the case of software the illicit copying is often an asset: you avoid adding the people who wouldn't buy to the userbase of the (OSS) competition.
 588 2011-09-08 06:30:46 <bonsaikitten> gmaxwell: since prices have gone up over the last years I wouldn't buy games anymore
 589 2011-09-08 06:31:07 <bonsaikitten> luckily I also lack the time, so it's a non-issue anyway
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 594 2011-09-08 06:39:56 <ymirhotfoot> Conference in New York City 10-12 September 2011:
 595 2011-09-08 06:40:00 <ymirhotfoot> http://openvideoconference.org/alternative-currencies-and-transaction-models/
 596 2011-09-08 06:40:18 <ymirhotfoot> Bitcoin will be at the center of the discussion.
 597 2011-09-08 06:41:19 <gmaxwell> Oh, I'll be at OVC.
 598 2011-09-08 06:42:18 <ymirhotfoot> It would be good to have authors of Bitcoin code at this meeting, also businessfolk, miners, bankers, and Bitcoin Tribes Folk without further specification.
 599 2011-09-08 06:42:24 <ymirhotfoot> Come on down!
 600 2011-09-08 06:42:45 <ymirhotfoot> Rick Moen^W^WBrewster Kahle will be there.
 601 2011-09-08 06:43:13 <gmaxwell> Does this mean archive.org will take bitcoin donations soon? ;)
 602 2011-09-08 06:43:28 <ymirhotfoot> ah, I know not
 603 2011-09-08 06:43:37 <ymirhotfoot> I am just passing the notice along
 604 2011-09-08 06:43:52 <ymirhotfoot> I have nothing to do with the organization of this conference
 605 2011-09-08 06:44:26 Burgundy has joined
 606 2011-09-08 06:44:58 <ymirhotfoot> gmaxwell, I am glad you will come, be'ezrat ha'Shem
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 609 2011-09-08 07:03:22 <bx_> lookign for skilled web devs exp with js (ajax), php, mysql, etc PM me ...  Also looking for Mobile devs (android/iphone) pay and equity in large bitcoin products & games, along with Contract-by-contract for small biz clients. PM me, Thanks ! :)
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 628 2011-09-08 08:01:40 <EskimoBob> Hi, has anyone used bitcoin-central code to build a actual working *coin exchange?
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 641 2011-09-08 08:37:25 <genjix> how can i contact theymos? his theymos@hotmail.com email no longer exists...
 642 2011-09-08 08:40:41 Sylph has joined
 643 2011-09-08 08:40:51 <Graet> pm on the forums?
 644 2011-09-08 08:40:53 Sylph has quit (Client Quit)
 645 2011-09-08 08:41:02 <Graet> he only ircs occasionally
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 647 2011-09-08 08:44:28 <osmosis> "Error: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least 0.001 because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently received funds "
 648 2011-09-08 08:44:42 <osmosis> the error description doesnt really say what is happening
 649 2011-09-08 08:44:44 <genjix> thanks Graet ... :/
 650 2011-09-08 08:44:46 <genjix> who wants contributor access to be able to make new posts on bitcoinmedia.com?
 651 2011-09-08 08:45:13 <genjix> a platform for your writings :)
 652 2011-09-08 08:45:46 <osmosis> Whats actually happening is there is not enough money left in my wallet for the fee.
 653 2011-09-08 08:46:20 fnord0 has joined
 654 2011-09-08 08:49:27 <Graet> no worries genjix - wish i was a writer ;)
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 657 2011-09-08 09:01:33 <noagendamarket> Graet you can do a press release for the aussie bitcoin conference :)
 658 2011-09-08 09:02:04 <noagendamarket> bitcoinpr <-----
 659 2011-09-08 09:02:12 <Graet> noagendamarket sure - once i get a press secratary
 660 2011-09-08 09:02:17 <noagendamarket> haha
 661 2011-09-08 09:02:22 <Graet> or however u spell iy
 662 2011-09-08 09:02:25 <Graet> it
 663 2011-09-08 09:02:33 <Graet> see why :/ ?
 664 2011-09-08 09:02:37 <Graet> lol
 665 2011-09-08 09:02:40 <noagendamarket> lol
 666 2011-09-08 09:02:52 <noagendamarket> Lucky Im a good spellchecker :)-
 667 2011-09-08 09:03:10 * Graet bribes noagendamarket to be ghostwriter
 668 2011-09-08 09:03:15 <noagendamarket> ha
 669 2011-09-08 09:03:32 <noagendamarket> I ususally end up ranting about the government
 670 2011-09-08 09:03:56 <Graet> thats ok, someone has to... i cbf ;)
 671 2011-09-08 09:04:02 <noagendamarket> lol
 672 2011-09-08 09:04:04 <Graet> :P
 673 2011-09-08 09:09:54 <genjix> noagendamarket: why your smileys have a beard?
 674 2011-09-08 09:10:56 <noagendamarket> lawl
 675 2011-09-08 09:11:09 <noagendamarket> its a tongue :p
 676 2011-09-08 09:11:35 <noagendamarket> :)-
 677 2011-09-08 09:11:41 <noagendamarket> acgtually its abeard
 678 2011-09-08 09:11:44 <noagendamarket> lol
 679 2011-09-08 09:11:49 <genjix> or a skinny neck
 680 2011-09-08 09:11:57 <noagendamarket> a hitler moustache
 681 2011-09-08 09:12:04 <noagendamarket> haha
 682 2011-09-08 09:12:24 <noagendamarket> :-)
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 684 2011-09-08 09:13:11 <genjix> that's:
 685 2011-09-08 09:13:15 <genjix> :^-)
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 704 2011-09-08 10:31:20 <EskimoBob> Hi, has anyone used bitcoin-central code to build a actual working *coin exchange?
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 706 2011-09-08 10:32:53 <osmosis> That was interesting. The transaction went through twice...debited my wallet twice. I only hit send one time though.
 707 2011-09-08 10:33:36 <osmosis> It happened just after saying no to a previous transaction that wanted a fee.
 708 2011-09-08 10:34:39 <lfm> osmosis: you sure the previos one with the fee didnt go thru?
 709 2011-09-08 10:34:39 <lfm>       they are confusing
 710 2011-09-08 10:35:25 <osmosis> lfm, the previous one with the fee would have been a totally different amount.  So no, it wasnt the previous one. For some reason, it sent twice even though I only hit send once.
 711 2011-09-08 10:38:43 <gmaxwell> Seems unlikely to me— there is nothing in the backend code that could do that. (a truly duplicate txn would have the same inputs and end up being the same txid, and wouldn't really be a duplicate0
 712 2011-09-08 10:39:30 <UukGoblin> sometimes a mouse sends two clicks? :-P
 713 2011-09-08 10:40:32 <Rozz> everything is possible in winapi
 714 2011-09-08 10:40:34 <lfm> UukGoblin: switches like buttons can bounce and if the mouse firmware is crappy it oculd be debounceing poorly.
 715 2011-09-08 10:40:45 <UukGoblin> yeah
 716 2011-09-08 10:41:36 <lfm> But the actual send button on the gui will not take two mouse clicks in a row and send two txn
 717 2011-09-08 10:41:39 <osmosis> Rozz, ubuntu
 718 2011-09-08 10:41:46 <osmosis> UukGoblin, sure, could have been two clicks.
 719 2011-09-08 10:42:08 <UukGoblin> lfm, ok, don't know that, I don't use the GUI
 720 2011-09-08 10:42:10 <osmosis> Rozz, actually....a ubuntu virtualbox...running in windows. so it could have been windows still.
 721 2011-09-08 10:42:36 <osmosis> or even virtualbox for that matter
 722 2011-09-08 10:42:38 <lfm> if you try to double click the send button it doesnt send two txn
 723 2011-09-08 10:42:46 <osmosis> that makes sense then
 724 2011-09-08 10:43:05 <osmosis> so nothing to do with the previous canceled transaction that wanted a fee.
 725 2011-09-08 10:44:11 <osmosis> should there be some protection from double clicking the send button maybe?
 726 2011-09-08 10:44:29 <lfm> I think the most likely answer is operator error
 727 2011-09-08 10:44:53 <lfm> osmosis: you can't double click the send button now
 728 2011-09-08 10:45:12 <osmosis> lfm, I cant?
 729 2011-09-08 10:45:24 <lfm> osmosis: just try it! send to yourself
 730 2011-09-08 10:48:43 <osmosis> lfm: I clicked send, then looked in the other window to watch the transaction come in..takes about 3 seconds. I watched, the transaction came in twice. I dont see how I could have possibly operator errored that.
 731 2011-09-08 10:49:25 <osmosis> confused, i looked back from my sending client, and there the transaction was listed twice.
 732 2011-09-08 10:49:47 <osmosis> anyways, im i didnt lose anything.
 733 2011-09-08 10:50:16 <osmosis> it is 3:40am here, but thats my story.
 734 2011-09-08 10:50:52 <lfm> osmosis well unless you can show how it could happen, it doesnt seem like any sort of network error or anything could cause it.
 735 2011-09-08 10:51:28 <osmosis> lfm, thats why i thought maybe it was related to having said no to a previous transaction with a fee.
 736 2011-09-08 10:52:20 <UukGoblin> osmosis, saying 'no' will still send the transaction, just without a fee, I guess
 737 2011-09-08 10:52:39 <UukGoblin> that's probably not the problem you're seeing though
 738 2011-09-08 10:53:10 <osmosis> UukGoblin, no it doesnt send. Thats what its asking, if I want to send and pay the fee.
 739 2011-09-08 10:53:22 <UukGoblin> hmm
 740 2011-09-08 10:53:30 <lfm> osmosis: are you using a standard version? regular version downloaded from bitcoin.org?
 741 2011-09-08 10:53:34 <UukGoblin> ok I don't use the gui so not really sure
 742 2011-09-08 10:53:38 <osmosis> lfm, correct
 743 2011-09-08 10:54:19 <osmosis> it doesnt take you back to the main window when you say no though. It just goes back to the sending dialog. So I changed the amount of the transaction to see if it would go without a fee.
 744 2011-09-08 10:54:43 <osmosis> im trying a few more times, see if i can duplicate at all.
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 746 2011-09-08 10:55:26 <osmosis> yep, it happened again. I can duplicate it.
 747 2011-09-08 10:55:47 <gmaxwell> dork. You're sending to your local wallet?
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 749 2011-09-08 10:55:53 <gmaxwell> You're seeing it both out and in.
 750 2011-09-08 10:55:56 <osmosis> gmaxwell, nope...two machines.
 751 2011-09-08 10:56:26 <osmosis> ugh...false. not duplicated
 752 2011-09-08 10:56:28 <gmaxwell> So what exact version of bitcoin, on what operating system, and what sequence of operations?
 753 2011-09-08 10:56:59 <gmaxwell> From what you're saying you're not doing something that a zillion other bitcoin users don't do every day.
 754 2011-09-08 10:59:35 <osmosis> 0.3.24-beta  ubuntu virtualbox, running on win7.
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 756 2011-09-08 11:00:13 <osmosis> Im going to send coins, but when it asks if I want to pay a fee I say no and then modify the amount and try to resend.
 757 2011-09-08 11:00:24 <osmosis> Ill let you know if i can duplicate it or if it happens again.
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 784 2011-09-08 11:48:18 <lfm> http://www.isi.edu/gost/info/NetCheque/
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 786 2011-09-08 11:54:05 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6c8341f1331f cgminer/ (main.c miner.h): Define max gpudevices in one macro.
 787 2011-09-08 11:54:06 <CIA-92> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r758afbf00e42 cgminer/configure.ac: Add -lpthread, not -pthread and remove -lm which is not required.
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 878 2011-09-08 13:28:12 <piuk> Could anyone explain what the "subscribe" message does in CNode::Subscribe()? I could find anything in the protocol spec is it redundant?
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 882 2011-09-08 13:28:55 <edcba> redudant with ?
 883 2011-09-08 13:29:10 tomat has joined
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 885 2011-09-08 13:29:18 <piuk> as in obsolete? not used anymore
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 887 2011-09-08 13:31:32 <edcba> do you know there are dev tools able to tell you if such method is called somewhere in code ? :)
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 889 2011-09-08 13:32:13 <gavinandresen> I'm probably misremembering, but I believe it is a half-implemented feature Satoshi was working on... something about merchants and clients and a more anonymous meet-in-the-middle way of paying for things.
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 891 2011-09-08 13:32:23 <gavinandresen> It aught to be removed, in my opinion.
 892 2011-09-08 13:33:18 <UukGoblin> gavinandresen, 3rd or so day with -noirc and no lockups :-)
 893 2011-09-08 13:33:32 <UukGoblin> so that seems to have helped
 894 2011-09-08 13:33:42 <piuk> Ok thanks, as far as i can tell it's not used anywhere so it's probably best to remove dead code
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 898 2011-09-08 13:39:56 <shadders> q: is magic number escaped if it occurs somewhere in the middle of a message?
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 923 2011-09-08 14:20:22 <makomk> Is it just me or is the gitian build process for Bitcoin kind of broken right now?
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 925 2011-09-08 14:20:45 <ThomasV> hmm, what is the correct way to test a git pull request ?
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 927 2011-09-08 14:21:26 <lfm> if there was a "correct way" to test then youd never find any of the interesting bugs
 928 2011-09-08 14:22:32 <ThomasV> lfm: I am asking about how to use git
 929 2011-09-08 14:22:51 <UukGoblin> git pull? :-P
 930 2011-09-08 14:23:04 <UukGoblin> preceded by git remote add, I guess
 931 2011-09-08 14:23:23 <UukGoblin> git is so awesome, it should be taught in schools
 932 2011-09-08 14:23:26 <ThomasV> yes, but how do I pull the code of a pull request ?
 933 2011-09-08 14:23:40 <UukGoblin> with git pull
 934 2011-09-08 14:24:05 <makomk> Yep, git pull <URL> <branch name>
 935 2011-09-08 14:24:31 <ThomasV> how do I know the branch name ?
 936 2011-09-08 14:25:00 <ThomasV> I want to test this : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/183
 937 2011-09-08 14:25:03 <gavinandresen> github tells you a the top of the pull request
 938 2011-09-08 14:25:22 <gavinandresen> branch for pull 183 is signandverif
 939 2011-09-08 14:25:39 <gavinandresen> (url is khalahan's github repo)
 940 2011-09-08 14:25:46 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: thanks
 941 2011-09-08 14:26:51 <ThomasV> merge failed, it has conflicts ; I suppose that this is because the pull request is a bit old
 942 2011-09-08 14:28:27 surikator has joined
 943 2011-09-08 14:35:17 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: apparently, some functions have changed name since the patch was first written
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 952 2011-09-08 14:57:46 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: if I judge from the state of deprecation of thiqs patch, there's been a lot of code rewriting since april
 953 2011-09-08 14:58:43 <gavinandresen> wallet encryption, deadlock fixes, code cleanups...
 954 2011-09-08 15:00:07 <ThomasV> is CScript the class that should be used to sign a message ?
 955 2011-09-08 15:03:22 <ThomasV> khalahan: are you here ?
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 999 2011-09-08 15:23:37 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r6ef5da3a0891 gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest wxbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/wxbitcoin-9999: Boost FS v3 patch was merged, so we no longer need to apply it
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1024 2011-09-08 15:29:24 <UukGoblin> hmm, some after-upgrade f*up on freenode?
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1075 2011-09-08 16:03:51 <d33tah> hi, i just released my new Bitcoin community project - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42284.0 feedback's welcome :)
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1079 2011-09-08 16:07:35 <UukGoblin> ah crap
1080 2011-09-08 16:07:43 <UukGoblin> I was too fast to praise it
1081 2011-09-08 16:08:09 <UukGoblin> my bitcoind just segfaulted despite having -noirc
1082 2011-09-08 16:08:43 <UukGoblin> it took it considerably longer, however
1083 2011-09-08 16:08:50 <BlueMatt> what did you do?
1084 2011-09-08 16:09:01 <BlueMatt> or git master build?
1085 2011-09-08 16:09:04 <UukGoblin> I was using p2pool with it
1086 2011-09-08 16:09:17 <UukGoblin> yeah quite recent git + getmemorypool
1087 2011-09-08 16:09:29 <UukGoblin> and I connected quite a lot of miners to p2pool
1088 2011-09-08 16:09:35 <UukGoblin> and then p2pool started being slow
1089 2011-09-08 16:09:40 <UukGoblin> and I restarted it
1090 2011-09-08 16:09:44 <UukGoblin> and then bitcoind died
1091 2011-09-08 16:09:53 <UukGoblin> I think I'm gonna go to eligius...
1092 2011-09-08 16:11:16 <BlueMatt> hopefully it was getmemorypool
1093 2011-09-08 16:11:40 <UukGoblin> I'm not convinced
1094 2011-09-08 16:11:52 <BlueMatt> (or atleast one of the known deadlocks...)
1095 2011-09-08 16:11:53 <UukGoblin> it was dying earlier with p2pool-without-getmemorypool
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1097 2011-09-08 16:12:06 <UukGoblin> but back then I was running .24, not git-latest
1098 2011-09-08 16:12:07 <BlueMatt> latest git or recent git?
1099 2011-09-08 16:12:09 <b4epoche> who is the thread lock guru?
1100 2011-09-08 16:12:19 <BlueMatt> no one really...though maybe gavin
1101 2011-09-08 16:12:45 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, 7464e6
1102 2011-09-08 16:12:49 <UukGoblin> plus getmemorypool
1103 2011-09-08 16:13:17 <BlueMatt> oh that has quite a few since fixed deadlocks
1104 2011-09-08 16:13:33 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1105 2011-09-08 16:13:44 <BlueMatt> sorry, just one I think...but a serious one
1106 2011-09-08 16:14:36 <UukGoblin> hmm
1107 2011-09-08 16:15:31 wardearia has quit (Quit: diiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee)
1108 2011-09-08 16:16:04 b4epoche_ has joined
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1111 2011-09-08 16:17:15 <ymirhotfoot> It would be useful to attempt bolting on very basic "thread management" faculties to C, C++, etc..
1112 2011-09-08 16:17:26 pumpkin has joined
1113 2011-09-08 16:17:37 Clipse has joined
1114 2011-09-08 16:17:58 <ymirhotfoot> There is a table of Clojure's "elementary thingies", let me look for it.
1115 2011-09-08 16:19:05 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1116 2011-09-08 16:19:41 <ymirhotfoot> http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#Concurrency
1117 2011-09-08 16:19:54 bonsaikitten has joined
1118 2011-09-08 16:20:07 AAA_awright has joined
1119 2011-09-08 16:20:13 magn3ts_ has joined
1120 2011-09-08 16:20:18 <ymirhotfoot> thread management is in most ;programming systems
1121 2011-09-08 16:20:24 magn3ts_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1123 2011-09-08 16:20:32 bonsaikitten has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1124 2011-09-08 16:20:41 <ymirhotfoot> at the stage arithmetic would be in if in addition carries were understood
1125 2011-09-08 16:21:03 <ymirhotfoot> but not managed by the underlying system, out of direct sight mostly.
1126 2011-09-08 16:21:10 ThomasV has joined
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1128 2011-09-08 16:21:45 alanp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1129 2011-09-08 16:21:48 <ymirhotfoot> Bitcoin relevance: multithreaded programming is harder than it should be in c++,
1130 2011-09-08 16:21:57 <ymirhotfoot> and bitcoind is a money program, so
1131 2011-09-08 16:22:06 <ymirhotfoot> sometimes bugs are important.
1132 2011-09-08 16:22:20 <phantomcircuit> the multithreading in bitcoind is completely unnecessary
1133 2011-09-08 16:22:52 <BlueMatt> not really
1134 2011-09-08 16:23:02 <ymirhotfoot> phantomcircuit, I am glad to hear this.
1135 2011-09-08 16:23:10 <phantomcircuit> the way it's currently used is mostly unnecessary
1136 2011-09-08 16:23:14 alanp has joined
1137 2011-09-08 16:23:20 <BlueMatt> that is true
1138 2011-09-08 16:23:47 ThomasV has quit (Client Quit)
1139 2011-09-08 16:23:49 <ymirhotfoot> Ah, BlueMatt, I am now torn between opinions of tow people who actually know summat of bitcoind
1140 2011-09-08 16:23:52 <ymirhotfoot> Oi.
1141 2011-09-08 16:23:54 <phantomcircuit> the only thing that would benefit from multithreading in bitcoind is really the transaction verification stuff
1142 2011-09-08 16:24:02 <lfm> except to mine on more than one core
1143 2011-09-08 16:24:12 wardearia has joined
1144 2011-09-08 16:24:29 <ymirhotfoot> last seems patently, to human eyes, logically simple, so
1145 2011-09-08 16:24:37 <ymirhotfoot> I am less worried.
1146 2011-09-08 16:25:38 AAA_awright has joined
1147 2011-09-08 16:25:41 <ymirhotfoot> mining on several cores seems very simple to program, using just about programming system out there.
1148 2011-09-08 16:25:47 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1149 2011-09-08 16:25:51 <ymirhotfoot> about -> about any
1150 2011-09-08 16:26:01 <lfm> ya but you need threads of some sort
1151 2011-09-08 16:26:35 <phantomcircuit> mining is obviously a specialized task
1152 2011-09-08 16:26:36 <ymirhotfoot> Well, something yes, maybe even Heavy Duty Threads, they need not be swift to start I think.
1153 2011-09-08 16:26:42 <phantomcircuit> which should not even be in bitcoind
1154 2011-09-08 16:26:42 bonsaikitten has joined
1155 2011-09-08 16:26:48 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: you could gain a lot from doing block/tx verification in a separate thread...also net handling should be threaded properly (obviously)
1156 2011-09-08 16:27:08 <BlueMatt> mining is largely removed from bitcoind and should be fully removed...
1157 2011-09-08 16:27:11 <BlueMatt> (IMO)
1158 2011-09-08 16:27:15 <phantomcircuit> network handling should be in 1 thread
1159 2011-09-08 16:27:53 <phantomcircuit> the message checksum on network packet should be ignored
1160 2011-09-08 16:27:54 <ymirhotfoot> BlueMatt, ah, ummnh, well, I must leave soon, and I understand little,
1161 2011-09-08 16:28:09 <lfm> it might simplify the logic to have 1 thread per connection
1162 2011-09-08 16:28:11 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: well Im saying net handling should be in its own thread(s)
1163 2011-09-08 16:28:13 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
1164 2011-09-08 16:28:36 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  what's the status of the code for sending to an IP address?
1165 2011-09-08 16:28:43 <ymirhotfoot> but Bitcoin is subtly arranged, and perhaps there is some good reason to keep mining well distributed,
1166 2011-09-08 16:28:44 <BlueMatt> lfm: that is a huge dos target unless its done very carefully
1167 2011-09-08 16:28:50 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: so insecure it got removed...
1168 2011-09-08 16:28:54 <b4epoche> seems like a lot of stuff is still there and if you put in an IP address
1169 2011-09-08 16:28:57 Joric has joined
1170 2011-09-08 16:28:57 glitch-mod has joined
1171 2011-09-08 16:29:00 <b4epoche> it seems to use it
1172 2011-09-08 16:29:01 <ymirhotfoot> despite it present partial lack of well distribution.
1173 2011-09-08 16:29:07 <BlueMatt> ymirhotfoot: getwork isnt gonna be removed, but cpu mining in the client is
1174 2011-09-08 16:29:35 <b4epoche> afact, you can still send to IP
1175 2011-09-08 16:29:41 <b4epoche> even in latest code
1176 2011-09-08 16:29:47 <ymirhotfoot> Thanks, Bluematt, I must look at the code, which I have done seriously yet.
1177 2011-09-08 16:29:56 <ymirhotfoot> don -> not done
1178 2011-09-08 16:30:16 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: latest code doesnt listen for ip txes anymore
1179 2011-09-08 16:30:25 Joric is now known as TomWilliams
1180 2011-09-08 16:30:29 <BlueMatt> (though you can theoretically still send to one iirc)
1181 2011-09-08 16:30:35 <b4epoche> yep
1182 2011-09-08 16:30:47 <ymirhotfoot> different topic: There is an upcoming conference in New York City this weekend,
1183 2011-09-08 16:30:55 <ymirhotfoot> 10-12 September 2011.
1184 2011-09-08 16:31:06 <phantomcircuit> you can actually spin up a ton of threads on linux if you know the highwater mark for stack usage
1185 2011-09-08 16:31:07 <b4epoche> getting rid of that code would help clean things up
1186 2011-09-08 16:31:21 <ymirhotfoot> It is the Open Video Conference and at least one Master of bitcoin has said they will be there.
1187 2011-09-08 16:32:03 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: you can do thread-per-connection networking, but its really a waste...
1188 2011-09-08 16:32:44 <ymirhotfoot> ah, MattBlue, understood your statement about getwork; must think; yes that is vital certainly.
1189 2011-09-08 16:32:45 Incitatus has joined
1190 2011-09-08 16:32:51 <ymirhotfoot> must think more
1191 2011-09-08 16:33:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it really isn't but you absolutely must know the high water mark for stack usage
1192 2011-09-08 16:33:40 Titeuf_87 has joined
1193 2011-09-08 16:33:52 <BlueMatt> well its not a waste, it used to be terrible, its a bit less so now with better thread libraries but its really overkill still
1194 2011-09-08 16:34:00 <phantomcircuit> thread per connect can actually be slightly higher performance if you can get the stack space just right
1195 2011-09-08 16:34:28 <BlueMatt> meh the perf doesnt make too much of a difference when you are doing p2p networking, the connections typically suck enough that...meh
1196 2011-09-08 16:35:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah by far the largest concern with bitcoin is disk access
1197 2011-09-08 16:36:23 <TomWilliams> speaking of NY did anyone ever hear about the MTB solutions (NY branch)? i don't really remember looks like i've seen about it somewhere on bitcoin forums
1198 2011-09-08 16:36:34 <TomWilliams> who are they?
1199 2011-09-08 16:36:52 <ymirhotfoot> phantomcircuit: I know little, but I think I get the basic "crystallize out winner" protocol idea.
1200 2011-09-08 16:37:16 <ymirhotfoot> And when I think of possible implementations, it is hard for me to see disk access ever being a proble.
1201 2011-09-08 16:37:40 <phantomcircuit> ymirhotfoot, the issue is that you need to call fsync a lot
1202 2011-09-08 16:37:42 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: very, very true
1203 2011-09-08 16:37:55 surikator has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1204 2011-09-08 16:38:01 <ymirhotfoot> I think Sataoshi has already proposed solutions, if I understand some remarks of his.
1205 2011-09-08 16:38:18 alanp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1206 2011-09-08 16:38:23 AAA_awright has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1207 2011-09-08 16:38:27 <ymirhotfoot> thanks, phantomcircuit, OK,
1208 2011-09-08 16:38:31 <BlueMatt> its possible to do disk access much better than it is now, but its still very, very hard
1209 2011-09-08 16:39:11 <ymirhotfoot> but I must think about this.  I have a suggestion, but I am ignorant so I refrain.
1210 2011-09-08 16:39:32 <ymirhotfoot> Ah, BlueMatt has same idea, but there is more.
1211 2011-09-08 16:39:35 AAA_awright has joined
1212 2011-09-08 16:39:50 <ymirhotfoot> Are there Bloom Filters in Bitcoin, near center of code yet?
1213 2011-09-08 16:41:04 <copumpkin> all hail the power of the bloom filter
1214 2011-09-08 16:41:30 <ymirhotfoot> copumpkin: ;)
1215 2011-09-08 16:41:37 d1g1t4l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1216 2011-09-08 16:41:39 <phantomcircuit> bloom filter can return a false positive iirc
1217 2011-09-08 16:41:47 <phantomcircuit> which for most bitcoin operations is bad news
1218 2011-09-08 16:42:07 <BlueMatt> cant have that for financial software...
1219 2011-09-08 16:42:35 <ymirhotfoot> Yes it can, but, oi, I must be away from the screen for a bit,
1220 2011-09-08 16:42:49 <ymirhotfoot> BlueMatt: ;)
1221 2011-09-08 16:44:59 <IO-> BlueMatt!
1222 2011-09-08 16:45:01 <IO-> whats up
1223 2011-09-08 16:45:11 <BlueMatt> not much...
1224 2011-09-08 16:45:35 MrTiggr is now known as MrTiggrZzzzz
1225 2011-09-08 16:47:38 TomWilliams is now known as brucewagner
1226 2011-09-08 16:47:52 erus` has joined
1227 2011-09-08 16:48:09 brucewagner is now known as Joric
1228 2011-09-08 16:48:56 <IO-> I'm not sure how to look but is my dnsseed host being used?
1229 2011-09-08 16:49:33 <BlueMatt> not yet...
1230 2011-09-08 16:49:46 <IO-> thought so
1231 2011-09-08 16:50:02 <BlueMatt> how many ghash does your pool have?
1232 2011-09-08 16:50:49 <IO-> about nothing
1233 2011-09-08 16:51:05 <IO-> hoppers once in a while after a block is found but they leave fast
1234 2011-09-08 16:51:11 <BlueMatt> wiki says 30?
1235 2011-09-08 16:51:12 <devrandom> makomk: what are the symptoms of the gitian issue you are seeing?
1236 2011-09-08 16:51:17 <IO-> regulars are all pretty stable with the top 3
1237 2011-09-08 16:51:24 Xunie has joined
1238 2011-09-08 16:51:31 <IO-> it was 30 at first but the hoppers left
1239 2011-09-08 16:51:38 <BlueMatt> ah
1240 2011-09-08 16:52:04 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
1241 2011-09-08 16:52:12 <BlueMatt> hi devrandom
1242 2011-09-08 16:53:14 <BlueMatt> IO-: did you, by any chance, go to the ny bitcoinf thing?
1243 2011-09-08 16:53:35 <IO-> sorry no
1244 2011-09-08 16:53:43 BTCTrader has joined
1245 2011-09-08 16:54:46 Joric is now known as RealLiquid
1246 2011-09-08 16:56:20 RealLiquid is now known as Joric
1247 2011-09-08 16:56:31 * jgarzik yawns
1248 2011-09-08 16:56:44 ahbritto has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1249 2011-09-08 16:56:58 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ???
1250 2011-09-08 16:57:16 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it's what you do when you're sleepy
1251 2011-09-08 16:57:29 <BlueMatt> oh, that thing...that explains why I do that so much
1252 2011-09-08 16:57:38 <alexwaters> lol
1253 2011-09-08 16:57:47 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1254 2011-09-08 16:58:19 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1255 2011-09-08 16:58:23 <IO-> the more ya know!
1256 2011-09-08 16:58:47 E-sense has quit (Quit: System.exit(0);)
1257 2011-09-08 16:59:40 <alexwaters> so if I want to reply to the mailing list, is the right way to CC the mailing list and reply to the last author?
1258 2011-09-08 17:00:14 <BlueMatt> depends, on like lkml yea, on something as small as bitcoin-development, maybe not...
1259 2011-09-08 17:01:12 <Joric> lol http://mtgex.tk/
1260 2011-09-08 17:01:30 <Joric> just got a letter that my account blocked with a link there
1261 2011-09-08 17:02:06 <BlueMatt> "Warning: suspected phishing site" thanks chrome
1262 2011-09-08 17:02:16 <BlueMatt> and then it doesnt load...
1263 2011-09-08 17:03:18 <alexwaters> BlueMatt: so instead of that people generally just reply to bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net and don't CC?
1264 2011-09-08 17:03:30 devon_hillard has joined
1265 2011-09-08 17:03:36 <BlueMatt> I do, but Im a complete newb...maybe ask jgarzik?
1266 2011-09-08 17:03:53 <alexwaters> kk cool, just trying to document how we are "supposed" to do things =P
1267 2011-09-08 17:04:09 <jgarzik> alexwaters: 'reply all' in most mailers should cover it
1268 2011-09-08 17:04:32 <Joric> did you implement wallet decoding already? :)
1269 2011-09-08 17:04:46 <BlueMatt> decoding?
1270 2011-09-08 17:05:12 ahbritto has joined
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1272 2011-09-08 17:05:12 ahbritto has joined
1273 2011-09-08 17:05:33 <Joric> well decrypting it back to the unencrypted state
1274 2011-09-08 17:05:42 <IO-> hehehe: http://i.imgur.com/ihE2E.png
1275 2011-09-08 17:05:53 <BlueMatt> Joric: no
1276 2011-09-08 17:06:10 <BlueMatt> IO-: haha
1277 2011-09-08 17:06:23 <lfm> joric did you "forget" to make a backup before you encrypted it?
1278 2011-09-08 17:06:37 <alexwaters> jgarzik: seems to work in Gmail, thanks
1279 2011-09-08 17:07:29 nr9 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1280 2011-09-08 17:07:41 ephcon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1281 2011-09-08 17:08:45 <Joric> lfm, no, not really i just thought it's obvious if you're encrypting the wallet you should be able to decrypt it back if you want
1282 2011-09-08 17:09:02 <cjdelisle> IO-: that's an interesting graph since it illustrates just how liniar the drop is.
1283 2011-09-08 17:09:21 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1284 2011-09-08 17:09:32 <lfm> Joric: ya, you'd think so wouldn't one.
1285 2011-09-08 17:10:23 shLONG has joined
1286 2011-09-08 17:10:32 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1287 2011-09-08 17:13:19 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,difficulty
1288 2011-09-08 17:13:19 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
1289 2011-09-08 17:13:24 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,help
1290 2011-09-08 17:13:25 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,altprofit, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,exchb, Alias (2 more messages)
1291 2011-09-08 17:13:32 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 65000
1292 2011-09-08 17:13:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 65000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1777774.4820015 , is 3 years, 37 weeks, 5 days, 14 hours, 16 minutes, and 13 seconds
1293 2011-09-08 17:15:58 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1294 2011-09-08 17:17:34 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1295 2011-09-08 17:18:21 denisx has joined
1296 2011-09-08 17:18:28 BlueMatt has joined
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1298 2011-09-08 17:19:46 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1299 2011-09-08 17:22:50 <cjdelisle> wallet encryption broke wxWidgets 2.9.0 compatability
1300 2011-09-08 17:23:29 <cjdelisle> http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/Converting_everything_to_and_from_wxString#wxString_to_std::string
1301 2011-09-08 17:23:32 <cjdelisle> ^lies!
1302 2011-09-08 17:25:05 nhodges has joined
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1307 2011-09-08 17:45:29 <cjdelisle> #define loop for (;;) <-- we should do find/replace in that kind of thing so normal people can read the code
1308 2011-09-08 17:48:14 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1315 2011-09-08 18:00:23 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1316 2011-09-08 18:01:02 <Ahimoth> ;;bc,calc 4200000
1317 2011-09-08 18:01:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1777774.4820015 , is 3 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 59 minutes, and 32 seconds
1318 2011-09-08 18:06:20 alanp_ has joined
1319 2011-09-08 18:07:12 <cjdelisle> wallet crypto requires WX >= 2.9.1
1320 2011-09-08 18:07:59 hippich has joined
1321 2011-09-08 18:08:26 clr_ has joined
1322 2011-09-08 18:08:34 clr_ is now known as c00w
1323 2011-09-08 18:09:09 <hippich> hey. i am trying to start new block chain. i was able to generate genesis hash, merkleroot and nonce with multi coin, but when i insert same values into original bitcoin client source code, it always fails with Assertion `block.hashMerkleRoot == uint256("0x0550e688f2d3a673ea153bab70b2cec6b7f6ac8ccdc3cf4dafca40b1cca9bbba")' failed...
1324 2011-09-08 18:09:26 <hippich> may be i am doing it wrong? how it is possible to generate genesis block?
1325 2011-09-08 18:09:35 <cjdelisle> checkout multicoin
1326 2011-09-08 18:09:41 <cjdelisle> #multicoin
1327 2011-09-08 18:09:53 dedeibel has joined
1328 2011-09-08 18:09:54 <cjdelisle> sacarlson has some documentation on starting a new chain
1329 2011-09-08 18:09:57 <hippich> yeah, i used it to create genesis block. but it do not work inside original bitcoin client.
1330 2011-09-08 18:10:21 <hippich> how originally it was generated?
1331 2011-09-08 18:10:27 <hippich> with original bitcoin app?
1332 2011-09-08 18:10:37 <cjdelisle> that's because the existing genisis block is hardcoded in the source
1333 2011-09-08 18:10:40 <cjdelisle> which is :(
1334 2011-09-08 18:10:55 iocor has joined
1335 2011-09-08 18:10:56 <cjdelisle> configuration != code
1336 2011-09-08 18:11:13 <hippich> i changed genesishash. merkleroot and nonce in soruce code, compiled original app and it fails with assertion "block.hashMerkleRoot"
1337 2011-09-08 18:11:28 alanp_ is now known as alanp
1338 2011-09-08 18:11:40 <cjdelisle> why don't you just use multicoin?
1339 2011-09-08 18:12:16 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1340 2011-09-08 18:12:32 <hippich> i can, but i am playing with whole thing. and multicoin lags a lot behind bitcoin.
1341 2011-09-08 18:12:46 TD has joined
1342 2011-09-08 18:12:57 minimoose has joined
1343 2011-09-08 18:13:27 <cjdelisle> or you could merge the multicoin changes into the bitcoin trunk and create a pull request since that genesis block stuff really *should* be in a config file.
1344 2011-09-08 18:14:03 <hippich> oh. i definitely not in position to do that. ) i am just playing with code )
1345 2011-09-08 18:14:49 <cjdelisle> the real answer which I have sofar been cleverly avoiding is fuckifIknow
1346 2011-09-08 18:15:01 pickett has joined
1347 2011-09-08 18:15:04 <hippich> =) fair enough.
1348 2011-09-08 18:15:32 <hippich> so basically i am trying to unedrstand what affects genesishash/merkleroot/nonce except these three.
1349 2011-09-08 18:15:39 <hippich> ahihi2, and nTime.
1350 2011-09-08 18:15:41 JackStorm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1351 2011-09-08 18:16:55 E-sense has joined
1352 2011-09-08 18:16:58 JackStorm has joined
1353 2011-09-08 18:17:16 <hippich> hm.. i think i missed something...
1354 2011-09-08 18:17:35 <cjdelisle> Actually porting that stuff into configuration would go a long way toward decent functional tests since you could mine blocks on the build machine with like 0 difficulty and then do transactions.
1355 2011-09-08 18:18:09 luke-jr_ is now known as luke-jr
1356 2011-09-08 18:21:07 forloop has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1357 2011-09-08 18:22:35 <hippich> damn. nBits was messing me )) did not notice it was different too... right there and i missed it )
1358 2011-09-08 18:22:54 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1359 2011-09-08 18:23:10 <hippich> so everything works as it should. sorry for bothering you guys )
1360 2011-09-08 18:23:23 ThomasV has joined
1361 2011-09-08 18:23:58 niekie has joined
1362 2011-09-08 18:24:29 <EskimoBob> Hi, do any of the Bitcoin-Central guys hang around here?
1363 2011-09-08 18:24:30 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1364 2011-09-08 18:24:33 bonsaikitten has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1365 2011-09-08 18:24:47 bonsaikitten has joined
1366 2011-09-08 18:25:02 <phantomcircuit> EskimoBob, i think i banned them for spamming
1367 2011-09-08 18:25:04 bonsaikitten has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1368 2011-09-08 18:25:10 <phantomcircuit> er from #bitcoin at least
1369 2011-09-08 18:25:20 bonsaikitten has joined
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1371 2011-09-08 18:25:33 bonsaikitten has joined
1372 2011-09-08 18:25:34 <EskimoBob> :(
1373 2011-09-08 18:25:45 niekie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1374 2011-09-08 18:25:47 <EskimoBob> any ideas where they hang around?
1375 2011-09-08 18:25:55 <phantomcircuit> nope
1376 2011-09-08 18:25:57 <phantomcircuit> why?
1377 2011-09-08 18:26:17 <EskimoBob> i have some questions about the BC
1378 2011-09-08 18:26:37 <phantomcircuit> you might get an answer if you just ask in #bitcoin
1379 2011-09-08 18:26:47 <phantomcircuit> dont they have an email address also?
1380 2011-09-08 18:27:04 bernie has quit (Changing host)
1381 2011-09-08 18:27:04 bernie has joined
1382 2011-09-08 18:27:30 <EskimoBob> it just a quick question and if they like to spam... i'll stick to irc
1383 2011-09-08 18:27:41 twobits1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1384 2011-09-08 18:28:12 <phantomcircuit> lol
1385 2011-09-08 18:28:35 niekie has joined
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1388 2011-09-08 18:32:10 <ThomasV> khalahan: ping
1389 2011-09-08 18:32:17 niekie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1390 2011-09-08 18:33:05 BlueMatt has joined
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1392 2011-09-08 18:38:32 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1393 2011-09-08 18:38:33 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 hours, 39 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> wallet encryption, deadlock fixes, code cleanups...
1394 2011-09-08 18:38:39 maikmerten has joined
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1412 2011-09-08 19:07:54 <ThomasV> is there a comparison of bitcoin accepting vps providers ?
1413 2011-09-08 19:08:00 <cjdelisle> what is the difference between &chIV[0] and chIV?
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1419 2011-09-08 19:10:22 <xelister> cjdelisle: ha there was some cool catch about it,
1420 2011-09-08 19:10:23 <xelister> afair
1421 2011-09-08 19:11:03 <xelister> one of thoes is more officially guaranteed to be more officiall way to get pointer to the linear region of memory with data of array
1422 2011-09-08 19:11:11 <xelister> thats actually an #c++ question
1423 2011-09-08 19:11:23 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: &chIV[0] is a pointer to the beginning of chIV
1424 2011-09-08 19:11:27 <BlueMatt> ie the first char
1425 2011-09-08 19:11:48 <BlueMatt> chIV...not so much
1426 2011-09-08 19:12:17 <xelister> in practice probably in all implementations where chIV is an normal C array (or std::vector?) both are the same thing
1427 2011-09-08 19:12:35 <BlueMatt> std::vector
1428 2011-09-08 19:12:44 danbri has joined
1429 2011-09-08 19:12:55 <BlueMatt> in practice, &chIV and &chIV[0] are the same thing, but chIV and &chIV[0] no
1430 2011-09-08 19:13:06 <BlueMatt> also, should it not be vchIV?
1431 2011-09-08 19:13:11 <BlueMatt> (probably my fault)
1432 2011-09-08 19:13:46 <cjdelisle> oh I see. C++ has allowed [] to be overloaded so chIV[0] != *chIV
1433 2011-09-08 19:13:56 <cjdelisle> what a PITA
1434 2011-09-08 19:13:59 <BlueMatt> no chIV is a c array, well then they are the same thing
1435 2011-09-08 19:14:10 * xelister bitchslaps cjdelisle
1436 2011-09-08 19:14:10 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1437 2011-09-08 19:14:16 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: not at all
1438 2011-09-08 19:14:17 <xelister> with a friendly feeling to it
1439 2011-09-08 19:14:44 <xelister> you ment to say that java (and most other languages) are too weak to give developer power to overload operators :)
1440 2011-09-08 19:15:03 <cjdelisle> indeed it is a char[] so they must then be the exact same thing
1441 2011-09-08 19:15:48 <xelister> this is char[]? then both are the same, but the &tab[0] notation is a bit nicer, especially if one day the variable type would be changed to std::string or vector
1442 2011-09-08 19:16:05 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: yes, the [0] is unnecessary in this case
1443 2011-09-08 19:16:11 wirehead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1444 2011-09-08 19:16:29 <cjdelisle> Protecting against someone overloading the operator in the future.
1445 2011-09-08 19:16:43 <cjdelisle> got it
1446 2011-09-08 19:17:27 <cjdelisle> ofc having to guard against that crap is like having to guard against someone adding #define TRUE FALSE
1447 2011-09-08 19:17:33 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1448 2011-09-08 19:18:52 <BlueMatt> cjdelisle: its there because I went back and forth on chIV vs vchIV and all kinds of things on crypter and at one point or another it was vchIV which would require the [0] or its not correct
1449 2011-09-08 19:19:07 dedeibel has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1450 2011-09-08 19:19:13 <BlueMatt> if it bugs you, pull request to have it changed
1451 2011-09-08 19:19:33 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1452 2011-09-08 19:19:49 <cjdelisle> No, it doesn't. It was just confusing me. The language kind of does but that's something I have to live with.
1453 2011-09-08 19:21:34 <phantomcircuit> lol so i go to buy an additional ip
1454 2011-09-08 19:21:34 <phantomcircuit> from rackspace
1455 2011-09-08 19:21:37 <phantomcircuit> AND I CANT FIGURE OUT HOW
1456 2011-09-08 19:21:40 <phantomcircuit> what the fuck
1457 2011-09-08 19:21:56 <BTCTrader_> rackspace, eww
1458 2011-09-08 19:22:28 <phantomcircuit> eh they've been good about other stuff
1459 2011-09-08 19:22:44 <phantomcircuit> someone was using a ton of diskio on the box they had assigned us and they fixed it
1460 2011-09-08 19:23:02 <phantomcircuit> BTCTrader_, have a suggestion for a better host?
1461 2011-09-08 19:23:30 <BTCTrader_> shrugs.  depends what you them for.
1462 2011-09-08 19:24:21 pigeons has joined
1463 2011-09-08 19:24:30 <phantomcircuit> running bitcoin exchange
1464 2011-09-08 19:24:31 <phantomcircuit> of course
1465 2011-09-08 19:24:35 <BTCTrader_> i dont use anything but vm's these days
1466 2011-09-08 19:24:53 <BTCTrader_> are you serious?
1467 2011-09-08 19:24:56 <Matth1a3> if I set -keypool=1, how many getnewaddresses should I be able to do?
1468 2011-09-08 19:25:14 <phantomcircuit> yes i am
1469 2011-09-08 19:25:57 <BTCTrader_> which url? there are a few
1470 2011-09-08 19:26:00 <BTCTrader_> but
1471 2011-09-08 19:26:13 <BTCTrader_> rackspace is probably a solid choice
1472 2011-09-08 19:26:19 <phantomcircuit> intersango.com and britcoin
1473 2011-09-08 19:26:33 <BTCTrader_> oh nice, pleasure to meet you
1474 2011-09-08 19:26:44 <phantomcircuit> i need an additional ip for https with users who dont have modern browsers
1475 2011-09-08 19:26:49 <BTCTrader_> yeah you want someone with enterprise level support
1476 2011-09-08 19:27:03 <phantomcircuit> their web chat isn't working
1477 2011-09-08 19:27:04 <phantomcircuit> it's oracle
1478 2011-09-08 19:27:08 <phantomcircuit> <-- amused
1479 2011-09-08 19:30:38 <jrmithdobbs> ya rackspace is a great choice
1480 2011-09-08 19:30:44 <jrmithdobbs> oh wait, I recomended them to you ;p
1481 2011-09-08 19:31:20 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i think you have to get someone on the phone, even before ipv4 was fully exhausted they started actually abiding by the spirit of ARIN's newer rules instead of the letter
1482 2011-09-08 19:31:30 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: so you have to actually show you need them for ssl
1483 2011-09-08 19:32:12 <Matth1a3> posted my question to http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/770/what-does-keypool-1-do
1484 2011-09-08 19:35:19 jimon has quit ()
1485 2011-09-08 19:35:29 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, yeah i got on the phone
1486 2011-09-08 19:35:35 <phantomcircuit> just need to provide a valid https certificate
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1488 2011-09-08 19:38:15 pumpkin is now known as copumpkin
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1491 2011-09-08 19:46:02 <EskimoBob> if I use testnet with 'bitcoind -testnet', is ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
1492 2011-09-08 19:46:23 <EskimoBob> if I use testnet with 'bitcoind -testnet', is ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf OK or do I need one in testnet folder too
1493 2011-09-08 19:46:24 <b4epoche> is fUseUPnP ever actually read from wallet.db?
1494 2011-09-08 19:46:56 twobits has joined
1495 2011-09-08 19:47:03 gavinandresen has joined
1496 2011-09-08 19:47:14 <EskimoBob> and how fast are transactions confirmed in testnet?
1497 2011-09-08 19:47:17 <b4epoche> doesn't look like the code ever actually reads it, and instead just looks for a command line arg
1498 2011-09-08 19:48:09 Joric has joined
1499 2011-09-08 19:48:32 <b4epoche> Yea, funny, ReadSetting is never called, period…  I guess the preferences window settings have no meaning
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1502 2011-09-08 19:51:25 <b4epoche> oh, never mind…  if (strKey == "fUseProxy")          ssValue >> fUseProxy;
1503 2011-09-08 19:51:34 <cjdelisle> Is qt wrapping wxWidgets? Just looking at the qt branch it doesn't look like any of the wx stuff has been removed.
1504 2011-09-08 19:51:56 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1505 2011-09-08 19:51:56 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 hours, 53 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> wallet encryption, deadlock fixes, code cleanups...
1506 2011-09-08 19:51:57 <b4epoche> why "ssValue >> fUseProxy"?
1507 2011-09-08 19:52:19 <gavinandresen> was that really 5 hours ago?
1508 2011-09-08 19:52:28 <BlueMatt> apparently
1509 2011-09-08 19:53:41 <b4epoche> gavinandresen:  I'm seeing what might be a deadlock between…  hold on, let me pull the stack trace
1510 2011-09-08 19:53:42 <ymirhotfoot> Bluematt, if I install bitcoind, and want to test drive it on the testnet, how long does it take to start up?  That is,
1511 2011-09-08 19:54:13 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1512 2011-09-08 19:54:37 <b4epoche> ah, yes, AddAddress and ThreadOpenConnections2
1513 2011-09-08 19:54:46 <ymirhotfoot> Is there some largish data I must get on my system before it starts doin whatever it does when it has enough data, which data is the blockchain, I presume.
1514 2011-09-08 19:54:50 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: latest git?
1515 2011-09-08 19:54:57 <b4epoche> rc1
1516 2011-09-08 19:55:17 <ymirhotfoot> Bluematt -> BlueMatt
1517 2011-09-08 19:55:26 <b4epoche> is that the latest?
1518 2011-09-08 19:55:28 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: fixed since them iirc
1519 2011-09-08 19:55:43 <BlueMatt> fixed yesterday (after rc1)
1520 2011-09-08 19:55:56 <phantomcircuit> is there an rpc call that lists memory pool transactions ?
1521 2011-09-08 19:56:00 <phantomcircuit> (or a patch to do so?)
1522 2011-09-08 19:56:04 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1523 2011-09-08 19:56:13 <BlueMatt> patch-> yes
1524 2011-09-08 19:56:17 <BlueMatt> pull request
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1527 2011-09-08 19:58:08 <phantomcircuit> lol are the pools still directly calling bitcoind?
1528 2011-09-08 19:58:12 <phantomcircuit> that shit is so dumb
1529 2011-09-08 19:59:20 <BlueMatt> are there any open proxies?
1530 2011-09-08 19:59:56 <phantomcircuit> ?
1531 2011-09-08 20:00:32 <BlueMatt> Im assuming you mean people->pushpoold/etc->load-balancing or at least redundant proxy->bitcoinds
1532 2011-09-08 20:00:40 unclemanti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1533 2011-09-08 20:01:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, well you need to give each miner it's own piece to look for
1534 2011-09-08 20:01:40 niekie has joined
1535 2011-09-08 20:01:54 <BlueMatt> really?
1536 2011-09-08 20:02:35 <phantomcircuit> well obviously you dont want them to be searchign the same space
1537 2011-09-08 20:02:46 <BlueMatt> that was sarcasm
1538 2011-09-08 20:03:13 <phantomcircuit> although you could modify the miners to change the merkle root extraNone themselves i think
1539 2011-09-08 20:03:30 ThomasV has joined
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1541 2011-09-08 20:04:30 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1542 2011-09-08 20:04:37 WakiMiko_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1543 2011-09-08 20:04:52 <phantomcircuit> you could change it so the miner picks it's own extraNonce and then you only count it if the coinbase pays out to the right address
1544 2011-09-08 20:05:10 <phantomcircuit> which would mean the pool only ever sees legitimate shares
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1549 2011-09-08 20:11:41 <b4epoche> BlueMatt:  can you explain the difference between IsLocked() and IsCrypted() ?
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1553 2011-09-08 20:23:56 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: IsLocked means password is not currently in memory, IsCrypted means wallet is encrypted (password or not)
1554 2011-09-08 20:24:42 <b4epoche> gotcha…  just wanted to make sure I was interpreting them right
1555 2011-09-08 20:25:07 sipa has joined
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1563 2011-09-08 20:27:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: sipa ok so...overall bitcoin structure planning...
1564 2011-09-08 20:29:13 <BlueMatt> clearly splitting into clearer modules is the way to go (net, blockchain/tx store, wallet(s), etc)
1565 2011-09-08 20:29:30 <BlueMatt> the question is how to do the hub
1566 2011-09-08 20:29:55 <sipa> i think the very first step is moving all the code now spread over rpc and ui that touches internal data structures to main and wallet
1567 2011-09-08 20:30:20 <BlueMatt> ive done parts of that already
1568 2011-09-08 20:30:25 <sipa> ok, nice
1569 2011-09-08 20:30:26 <gavinandresen> the first step is getting 0.4 released...
1570 2011-09-08 20:30:31 <gavinandresen> ... then merging qt...
1571 2011-09-08 20:30:35 <sipa> agree
1572 2011-09-08 20:30:39 <BlueMatt> the next step is finding a new project for BlueMatt to work on :)
1573 2011-09-08 20:30:41 <gavinandresen> ... then merging a whole bunch of pulls that have been piling up...
1574 2011-09-08 20:30:42 <phantomcircuit> what is in 0.4?
1575 2011-09-08 20:30:45 <BlueMatt> which imo is restructure...
1576 2011-09-08 20:31:02 <BlueMatt> hence my desire to discuss this
1577 2011-09-08 20:31:23 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no offense, but I don't think you've got enough C++ experience to be designing API interfaces
1578 2011-09-08 20:31:44 <BlueMatt> hence my desire to ask for guidance
1579 2011-09-08 20:31:48 <gavinandresen> (should that be a const reference or a const pointer or a smart pointer or.........)
1580 2011-09-08 20:31:48 <BlueMatt> I absolutely dont
1581 2011-09-08 20:32:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: regarding your list of known bugs for 0.4rc1, the only unfixed one is the getwork-related one, right?
1582 2011-09-08 20:32:16 <gavinandresen> sipa:  lemme check...
1583 2011-09-08 20:33:20 <gavinandresen> ... yes, and I think the getwork one is fixed, was just waiting for qa signoff
1584 2011-09-08 20:33:37 <sipa> ok, so rc2 is near; good
1585 2011-09-08 20:33:59 <BlueMatt> I still have reservations about holding onto static seed node connections
1586 2011-09-08 20:34:16 <sipa> you mean?
1587 2011-09-08 20:34:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: fun little project you could tackle:  work with tcatm to figure out how to create a contributors page that is auto-generated from github source tree history
1588 2011-09-08 20:34:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/b53e277ba12e011287d3b15823b64c303ab66243
1589 2011-09-08 20:35:34 <b4epoche> is there current UI functionality to change the wallet encryption password?
1590 2011-09-08 20:35:37 <tcatm> gavinandresen: that's easy :)
1591 2011-09-08 20:36:17 Sedra has joined
1592 2011-09-08 20:36:17 <gavinandresen> tcatm: extra credit: figure out how to dig out 'who has pull access' from the github apis
1593 2011-09-08 20:36:18 copumpkin_ is now known as copumpkin
1594 2011-09-08 20:36:19 <BlueMatt> to be fair, the seednodes, currently (and Im sure it wont take long) have all their conn. slots full
1595 2011-09-08 20:36:43 <BlueMatt> so connecting to them doesnt work anyway
1596 2011-09-08 20:36:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you sure?  when I was testing that commit I had no problem connecting to a random seednode
1597 2011-09-08 20:36:54 <BlueMatt> static ones?
1598 2011-09-08 20:37:05 <gavinandresen> yes.  there was a bug-- it would always try them in order
1599 2011-09-08 20:37:20 <gavinandresen> ... so everybody was banging on the same seeds
1600 2011-09-08 20:37:22 <BlueMatt> hmm...last I checked I got no connections with -noirc and -nodnsseed (or whatever that one is)
1601 2011-09-08 20:37:45 <gavinandresen> so try again from latest git-head.  there are more seeds, and it connects to one at random
1602 2011-09-08 20:37:54 <gavinandresen> (remove your addr.dat first)
1603 2011-09-08 20:38:05 <BlueMatt> yea
1604 2011-09-08 20:38:08 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1605 2011-09-08 20:38:19 <BlueMatt> let me dl latest git from jenkins, I dont have wx 2.9 on this machine
1606 2011-09-08 20:38:55 <BlueMatt> (and dont feel like getinfoing repeatedly...)
1607 2011-09-08 20:39:10 <tcatm> anyone have an good estimate on how many users use bitcoin (worldwide)?
1608 2011-09-08 20:40:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: what was the getwork-bug, btw?
1609 2011-09-08 20:41:37 BlueMatt_ has joined
1610 2011-09-08 20:42:54 <copumpkin> tcatm
1611 2011-09-08 20:42:58 <copumpkin> sounds pretty hard to estimate :)
1612 2011-09-08 20:42:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: it is the you-might-create-a-duplicate-coinbase-txn bug
1613 2011-09-08 20:43:24 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1614 2011-09-08 20:43:48 <sipa> + UukGoblin reports a deadlock problem on a bitcoind handling getwork requests.
1615 2011-09-08 20:43:52 <sipa> that one, i mean
1616 2011-09-08 20:44:08 <gavinandresen> oh, that one was the database lock deadlock
1617 2011-09-08 20:44:14 <gavinandresen> (with addr.dat)
1618 2011-09-08 20:44:36 <sipa> hmm, ok; bit strange that getwork would cause that
1619 2011-09-08 20:44:42 erle- has joined
1620 2011-09-08 20:44:43 <phantomcircuit> in it's current form addr.dat is 100% useless
1621 2011-09-08 20:45:08 <jrmithdobbs> no it's quite useful for searching out bad sectors on disks
1622 2011-09-08 20:45:09 <gavinandresen> sipa:  he just noticed because getwork was hanging waiting for the cs_main lock
1623 2011-09-08 20:45:15 <jrmithdobbs> with how much it rewrites itself for no reason
1624 2011-09-08 20:45:21 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: lol
1625 2011-09-08 20:45:22 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1626 2011-09-08 20:45:58 <gavinandresen> who wants to volunteer to fix it?
1627 2011-09-08 20:46:04 <jrmithdobbs> also destroying ssds and other nand based devices for secure disposal
1628 2011-09-08 20:46:13 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
1629 2011-09-08 20:46:15 <gavinandresen> anybody?
1630 2011-09-08 20:46:30 <sipa> after next friday i'll definitely want something bitcoiny to work on :)
1631 2011-09-08 20:46:35 <gavinandresen> Maybe that should be Matt's next project....
1632 2011-09-08 20:46:55 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
1633 2011-09-08 20:47:16 <gavinandresen> It's decided then, Matt will fix the addr.dat problem.
1634 2011-09-08 20:47:19 <BlueMatt> 25 connections and couting...running the node for...maybe 1 minute
1635 2011-09-08 20:47:30 wood has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1636 2011-09-08 20:47:31 <sipa> i think it requires some discussion
1637 2011-09-08 20:47:42 <BlueMatt> god this network is either starved or full of people going crazy with the connect to everyone
1638 2011-09-08 20:47:42 <sipa> some time ago (related to my ipv6 patch) there were some nice ideas here on #bitcoin-dev
1639 2011-09-08 20:47:49 <BlueMatt> or hub mode patch thing
1640 2011-09-08 20:47:57 <sipa> about other ways to decide which addresses to try
1641 2011-09-08 20:49:17 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1642 2011-09-08 20:49:34 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya i think you're talking about the stuff me and gmaxwell talked about
1643 2011-09-08 20:49:37 <jrmithdobbs> and honestly
1644 2011-09-08 20:49:38 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: indeed
1645 2011-09-08 20:49:42 <jrmithdobbs> i've forgotten most of it
1646 2011-09-08 20:50:00 <jrmithdobbs> would have to skim logs to remember
1647 2011-09-08 20:50:01 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1648 2011-09-08 20:50:01 <sipa> eg. counting in how many different "unrelated" network parts (IPv4 /16's) it has been reported
1649 2011-09-08 20:50:24 <BlueMatt> a dump of bgp
1650 2011-09-08 20:50:36 <BlueMatt> (using that instead of /16s)
1651 2011-09-08 20:51:05 <sipa> the ipv6 patch has a generalization of the /16 rule, with identifiers for network ranges
1652 2011-09-08 20:51:22 <sipa> should be able to plug into that, if you'd have such a dump
1653 2011-09-08 20:51:26 agricocb has joined
1654 2011-09-08 20:52:42 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: also need to completely change the "scoring" of peers
1655 2011-09-08 20:52:46 <sipa> yes
1656 2011-09-08 20:52:48 <jrmithdobbs> it's just wonky right now
1657 2011-09-08 20:52:48 <BlueMatt> http://bgp.potaroo.net/ipv4-stats/prefixes_adv_pool.txt
1658 2011-09-08 20:53:02 <UukGoblin> yeah -noirc didn't help
1659 2011-09-08 20:53:06 <BlueMatt> wait, no
1660 2011-09-08 20:53:32 <jrmithdobbs> if you're connected to irc you can get into states where you'll only choose like 1 peer ever to try to connect to (iirc) and some other very weird unexpected behavior
1661 2011-09-08 20:53:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: those are pretty small netranges
1662 2011-09-08 20:54:04 Jefff has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1664 2011-09-08 20:54:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: some bgp announces are, but that txt is not right...
1665 2011-09-08 20:54:56 <jrmithdobbs> not to mention that being a sep bgp announce doesn't mean it's actually a sep network under different people's controlled
1666 2011-09-08 20:55:00 <jrmithdobbs> s/controlled/control/
1667 2011-09-08 20:55:03 <jrmithdobbs> that's a bad assumption
1668 2011-09-08 20:55:14 <jrmithdobbs> not any better, possibly worse, than the /16 one
1669 2011-09-08 20:55:22 <BlueMatt> its better than /16 and I can think of anything better...
1670 2011-09-08 20:55:29 <cjdelisle> is there somewhere I should look to see the list of arguments against using wx and in favor of qt?
1671 2011-09-08 20:55:52 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: for ipv6, its probably not better, for ipv4 its much better
1672 2011-09-08 20:55:59 <BlueMatt> many orgs still sit on /8s
1673 2011-09-08 20:56:11 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1674 2011-09-08 20:56:11 <jrmithdobbs> it's not much better for ipv4
1675 2011-09-08 20:56:17 <jrmithdobbs> if the goal is to prevent sybil
1676 2011-09-08 20:56:21 EconNeg1 has joined
1677 2011-09-08 20:56:28 <jrmithdobbs> organizational control isn't the only problem
1678 2011-09-08 20:56:32 <BlueMatt> meh, I dont care...I was simply restating ideas I remembered from the previous discussion
1679 2011-09-08 20:56:34 <sipa> i think those ranges are way too small to be useful
1680 2011-09-08 20:56:42 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1681 2011-09-08 20:56:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: those ranges are wrong...
1682 2011-09-08 20:57:25 <sipa> cjdelisle: i don't think there has been much discussion
1683 2011-09-08 20:58:10 <sipa> but imho, just the fact that one is actively developed, and the other one is only being updated when absolutely necessary is enough reason
1684 2011-09-08 20:58:27 <cjdelisle> Ahh, wx is deadish?
1685 2011-09-08 20:58:39 Clipse has joined
1686 2011-09-08 20:58:45 <BlueMatt> well no one really feels like working on something based on wx2.9
1687 2011-09-08 20:58:57 <BlueMatt> and there are people who would work on qt
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1690 2011-09-08 20:59:55 <cjdelisle> I see. Looking at the qt fork I still see a ton of WX* in the code and removing all WX would be a huge task so is the plan to require both WX and QT?
1691 2011-09-08 21:00:29 Jefff has joined
1692 2011-09-08 21:00:59 <sipa> removing ui.cpp and uibase.cpp should be enough, no?
1693 2011-09-08 21:01:04 <b4epoche> yea
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1697 2011-09-08 21:03:10 <cjdelisle> user@debo8:~/wrk/play/bitcoin/src$ find ./ -name '*.cpp' -exec grep 'wx.*(' {} \; -print | wc -l
1698 2011-09-08 21:03:13 <cjdelisle> 487
1699 2011-09-08 21:03:16 hachiya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1700 2011-09-08 21:03:42 <sipa> is that after removing ui.cpp and uibase.cpp ?
1701 2011-09-08 21:03:42 <cjdelisle> ahh
1702 2011-09-08 21:03:44 <cjdelisle> ./uibase.cpp
1703 2011-09-08 21:03:44 <cjdelisle> ./ui.cpp
1704 2011-09-08 21:03:44 <cjdelisle> ./util.cpp
1705 2011-09-08 21:03:44 <cjdelisle> ./init.cpp
1706 2011-09-08 21:03:47 <cjdelisle> not too bad
1707 2011-09-08 21:04:02 <BlueMatt> still if #ifdef __WXMSW__ everywhere
1708 2011-09-08 21:04:07 <sipa> yeah
1709 2011-09-08 21:04:17 <cjdelisle> we can sed that out if nothing else
1710 2011-09-08 21:04:18 <sipa> it uses wm macro's to decide which OS we're on
1711 2011-09-08 21:06:33 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1712 2011-09-08 21:06:39 <jrmithdobbs> b4epoche: i think the qt fork currently leaves existing code so you could build either iirc
1713 2011-09-08 21:07:04 <gavinandresen> does anybody want to build both?
1714 2011-09-08 21:07:04 Daniel0108 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1715 2011-09-08 21:07:10 <cjdelisle> of so it's all wrapped in #ifdef WX then?
1716 2011-09-08 21:08:00 <jrmithdobbs> ya
1717 2011-09-08 21:08:10 <jrmithdobbs> you can build bitcoind without wx, for instance
1718 2011-09-08 21:09:54 <sipa> what about we make a build that has both at the same time?
1719 2011-09-08 21:09:58 <sipa> ;)
1720 2011-09-08 21:10:14 <sipa> qt window + wx window
1721 2011-09-08 21:10:16 <luke-jr> sipa: you can't even build wx and bitcoind at the same time right now
1722 2011-09-08 21:10:35 <sipa> how do you mean?
1723 2011-09-08 21:11:01 <cjdelisle> building with WX and QT --> static linking useless binaries into the elf --> :(
1724 2011-09-08 21:11:18 <cjdelisle> s/useless/huge and unused/
1725 2011-09-08 21:11:21 <jrmithdobbs> cjdelisle: you're no fun
1726 2011-09-08 21:11:21 agricocb has joined
1727 2011-09-08 21:11:31 <gavinandresen> no, I want to purge all WX stuff.
1728 2011-09-08 21:11:38 <jrmithdobbs> like anyone sane runs the official binaries anyways ;p
1729 2011-09-08 21:11:39 <cjdelisle> +1
1730 2011-09-08 21:12:08 <gavinandresen> In for a penny, and go pound sand I always say
1731 2011-09-08 21:12:11 rdponticelli has joined
1732 2011-09-08 21:12:19 <phantomcircuit> wat
1733 2011-09-08 21:12:36 <cjdelisle> heh
1734 2011-09-08 21:12:57 <phantomcircuit> it's amazing the degree to which registration keeps people from using a site
1735 2011-09-08 21:13:04 <phantomcircuit> honestly it's kind of mind boggling
1736 2011-09-08 21:13:10 <sipa> is it?
1737 2011-09-08 21:13:23 <sipa> i hate registering for things i'm not sure i'll want to keep using
1738 2011-09-08 21:13:30 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
1739 2011-09-08 21:13:38 <sipa> gavinandresen: not sure what means
1740 2011-09-08 21:14:16 <gavinandresen> sipa: I was just mixing the "in for a penny, in for a pound"  and "go pound sand" metaphors
1741 2011-09-08 21:15:18 <gavinandresen> I should be more careful about making weird jokes that rely on obscure idioms in international company
1742 2011-09-08 21:15:41 <sipa> well, i'm not familiar with either idiom, so nvm :)
1743 2011-09-08 21:15:57 gfinn has joined
1744 2011-09-08 21:16:03 <imsaguy> gavinandresen, they can always use a search engine.  Its not like its 1992 anymore.
1745 2011-09-08 21:16:07 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1746 2011-09-08 21:16:42 <cjdelisle> https://github.com/cjdelisle/bitcoin/commit/161b03add466576a2a49ee35aa8673b6182a5f5f
1747 2011-09-08 21:17:02 <cjdelisle> running now with that patch applied
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1751 2011-09-08 21:18:07 <alexwaters> in for a satoshi
1752 2011-09-08 21:18:10 <cjdelisle> I had mixed results building with -fPIE but with noexecstack and stackprotect, it's (IMO) not too important
1753 2011-09-08 21:18:26 <cjdelisle> (so I left it turned off by default)
1754 2011-09-08 21:19:02 <alexwaters> anyone know WHY pyminer is giving me connection refused with create_connection in socket.py line 571?
1755 2011-09-08 21:19:09 <gavinandresen> cjdelisle: you're missing a "not" or "un" on line 40
1756 2011-09-08 21:19:42 <sipa> alexwaters: is bitcoind running?
1757 2011-09-08 21:19:50 <cjdelisle> "Make some classes of vulnerabilities exploitable" lol typo fail
1758 2011-09-08 21:19:55 <alexwaters> sipa: yes
1759 2011-09-08 21:20:52 WakiMiko has joined
1760 2011-09-08 21:23:24 <gavinandresen> alexwaters: double-check that port in your pyminer config matches your bitcoind's rpcport.
1761 2011-09-08 21:23:39 <gavinandresen> (speaking of which, why is it port in the miner config but rpcport in bitcoind?)
1762 2011-09-08 21:24:14 <alexwaters> i was wondering that myself
1763 2011-09-08 21:24:20 <alexwaters> considering that it uses rpcuser and rpcpass
1764 2011-09-08 21:24:30 <cjdelisle> just committed an 'un' before exploitable. In my debian box the nxstack is compiled by default but on a 32 bit machine the nxbit has no effect so the stack canaries are pretty important.
1765 2011-09-08 21:24:31 <sipa> probably because a miner has no other port than the rpc port
1766 2011-09-08 21:25:59 <alexwaters> yes, they are both set to 9000 it looks like, unless something in the test-net-in-a-box overrides my ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
1767 2011-09-08 21:26:22 <sipa> testnet in a box is nothing more than two config files...
1768 2011-09-08 21:27:01 <sipa> if you're using testnet in a box, are you even using ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf at all?
1769 2011-09-08 21:27:22 <gavinandresen> yup, how are you running bitcoind?  -datadir=/path/to/testnet-in-a-box ?  Then you need to look at the bitcoin.conf in that datadir
1770 2011-09-08 21:29:04 <alexwaters> ah that fixed it
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1772 2011-09-08 21:29:22 <alexwaters> 91 khash/sec =)
1773 2011-09-08 21:29:23 <alexwaters> lol
1774 2011-09-08 21:29:26 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1775 2011-09-08 21:29:45 <alexwaters> thanks
1776 2011-09-08 21:33:29 <sipa> anyway, empty addr.dat, noirc, nodnsseed -> no problem in getting connected
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1779 2011-09-08 21:40:02 <sipa> ok, i'm out again
1780 2011-09-08 21:40:23 <sipa> i'll be back after next week
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1795 2011-09-08 22:08:05 <ymirhotfoot> Who may be at the Open Video Conference?
1796 2011-09-08 22:08:24 <ymirhotfoot> It is this weekend in New York City.
1797 2011-09-08 22:09:15 <ymirhotfoot> Starts Saturday 10 September 2011 at New York Law School,
1798 2011-09-08 22:09:27 <ymirhotfoot> which is not NYU Law School.
1799 2011-09-08 22:10:05 wtfman is now known as wtfman[away]
1800 2011-09-08 22:10:20 erle- has joined
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1802 2011-09-08 22:13:20 <ymirhotfoot> It is said that Clausius, Maxwell, and Boltzmann will be there.
1803 2011-09-08 22:13:39 agricocb has joined
1804 2011-09-08 22:16:48 <ymirhotfoot> http://openvideoconference.org/alternative-currencies-and-transaction-models/
1805 2011-09-08 22:17:02 <ymirhotfoot> darn stutter
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1811 2011-09-08 22:34:16 <cjdelisle> Is the intent to eventually have the gui communicate with the daemon via the json rpc?
1812 2011-09-08 22:34:48 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: not practical; see Wallet protocol wiki page for work on something similar
1813 2011-09-08 22:35:42 <cjdelisle> yea, the api would need to be built up a lot in order for it to work ofc.
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1815 2011-09-08 22:37:34 <luke-jr> it'd have to be a bidirectional protocol, not a request-oriented link
1816 2011-09-08 22:37:49 <cjdelisle> indeed
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1820 2011-09-08 22:43:57 <cjdelisle> is seperating gui from daemon one of the use cases for designing the wallet protocol?
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1822 2011-09-08 22:49:09 <freewil> does the api support getting the last x transactions from all accounts?
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1845 2011-09-08 23:29:32 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: yes
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1850 2011-09-08 23:47:50 <Matth1a3> how long does it take to generate a testnet block with the contrib/python miner?
1851 2011-09-08 23:48:15 <BTCTrader> that would depend on the difficulty
1852 2011-09-08 23:48:41 <BTCTrader> sorry but i dont know the exact time off hand
1853 2011-09-08 23:48:53 <nanotube> Matth1a3: are you working with the real testnet, or testnet in a box?
1854 2011-09-08 23:49:39 <nanotube> if the former, testnet difficulty-equivalent is currently 133
1855 2011-09-08 23:50:00 <nanotube> so you can try running ;;bc,calcd yourhashrateinkhps 133
1856 2011-09-08 23:50:03 <nanotube> to get the expected time
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1859 2011-09-08 23:55:33 <makomk> devrandom: the Windows build of miniupnpc tries to execute a Windows binary, and the Linux build is broken due to the use of -f when unpacking the 64-bit wxWidgets.
1860 2011-09-08 23:56:08 <makomk> devrandom: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42198.msg514312#msg514312
1861 2011-09-08 23:56:14 <Matth1a3> nanotube: testnet in a box
1862 2011-09-08 23:56:26 normanrichards has joined
1863 2011-09-08 23:57:17 <Matth1a3> ;;bc,calcd 83 .125
1864 2011-09-08 23:57:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 83 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of .125, is 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 48 seconds
1865 2011-09-08 23:57:24 <Matth1a3> wow lol
1866 2011-09-08 23:57:47 <Matth1a3> cool gribble script though
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