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7 2011-09-18 00:13:38 <jjjrmy> Selling BitPizza.net
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15 2011-09-18 00:23:59 <flying> stupid irc client.
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47 2011-09-18 01:49:57 <Disposition> it has come to my attention Satoshi is the main character from Pokemon.
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50 2011-09-18 02:00:01 <luke-jr> Disposition: no crap
51 2011-09-18 02:00:16 <luke-jr> Disposition: it's also a rather common name
52 2011-09-18 02:00:38 <luke-jr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi has like 30 notables
53 2011-09-18 02:00:46 <luke-jr> most of which are real people
54 2011-09-18 02:05:57 <hololeap> does anyone know how to set up the client to use JSON-RPC
55 2011-09-18 02:06:46 <luke-jr> hololeap: only Spesmilo supports that
56 2011-09-18 02:07:20 <hololeap> i was really just looking for a way to start mining
57 2011-09-18 02:07:30 <hololeap> so the standard client doesnt allow that?
58 2011-09-18 02:08:43 <luke-jr> oh, you mean *provides* JSON-RPC
59 2011-09-18 02:08:59 <luke-jr> the Satoshi client does, via the -server option
60 2011-09-18 02:09:04 <luke-jr> but that's solo mining, and not very efficient
61 2011-09-18 02:09:27 <luke-jr> hololeap: if you're wanting to get into mining, #Eligius is a better channel
62 2011-09-18 02:09:50 <hololeap> ok
63 2011-09-18 02:10:02 <hololeap> is eligius a program or something?
64 2011-09-18 02:10:15 <neofutur> a mining pool
65 2011-09-18 02:10:22 <hololeap> ok
66 2011-09-18 02:10:46 <Disposition> luke-jr lol it's suppose to be humorous :P
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68 2011-09-18 02:11:44 <b4epoche_> can we quit with the pooled mining is more 'efficient'⦠that's just not true
69 2011-09-18 02:12:11 <b4epoche_> there are benefits and hololeap should probably go that route but efficiency is not one of them
70 2011-09-18 02:12:16 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: yes, it is
71 2011-09-18 02:12:40 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: if you don't like it, submit pull requests to improve solo mining and hope they get merged someday
72 2011-09-18 02:12:52 <luke-jr> (afaik I'm the only one to actually do that ^)
73 2011-09-18 02:13:03 <b4epoche_> pull requests on what? client?
74 2011-09-18 02:13:09 <luke-jr> bitcoind
75 2011-09-18 02:13:16 <b4epoche_> no one would mine with that
76 2011-09-18 02:13:19 <luke-jr> â¦
77 2011-09-18 02:13:28 <luke-jr> that's the weak link in solo mining
78 2011-09-18 02:13:28 <hololeap> so mining doesn't make much sense unless you have a gpu?
79 2011-09-18 02:13:34 <luke-jr> hololeap: no, not really
80 2011-09-18 02:13:47 <luke-jr> hololeap: if you mine with a CPU, you'll pay more in electric than you'll make in Bitcoins
81 2011-09-18 02:14:01 <b4epoche_> why would you mine solo with bitcoind?
82 2011-09-18 02:14:13 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: there's no other way to solo mine
83 2011-09-18 02:14:33 vragnaroda has quit (Quit:)
84 2011-09-18 02:14:45 <luke-jr> other than setting up a private pool
85 2011-09-18 02:14:48 <b4epoche_> well, depends on what you mean by solo
86 2011-09-18 02:15:03 <hololeap> 1 more question: if every time someone raises the bar as far as processing power for a miner does that make it harder for everyone to mine coins?
87 2011-09-18 02:15:13 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: generally, solo means "pointing a miner directly at your own bitcoind"
88 2011-09-18 02:15:19 <luke-jr> hololeap: yep
89 2011-09-18 02:15:42 <b4epoche_> then that's bad terminology
90 2011-09-18 02:15:59 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: what else would it mean?
91 2011-09-18 02:16:09 <hololeap> so then won't it eventually just get to a point where the electricity used mining bitcoins always costs more than the bitcoins gained?
92 2011-09-18 02:16:12 <b4epoche_> solo mines 'alone'
93 2011-09-18 02:16:21 <luke-jr> hololeap: equilibrium, yes
94 2011-09-18 02:16:25 <b4epoche_> and you can mine alone in many different ways (without bitcoind)
95 2011-09-18 02:16:26 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: same thing
96 2011-09-18 02:16:33 <luke-jr> not right now, no
97 2011-09-18 02:16:43 <luke-jr> bitcoind is the only way to mine at all right now
98 2011-09-18 02:16:47 <b4epoche_> and solo pool
99 2011-09-18 02:16:49 <luke-jr> even pooled mining uses it indirectly
100 2011-09-18 02:17:08 <luke-jr> solo pool can be as efficient as any other pool, admittedly
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102 2011-09-18 02:17:20 <luke-jr> but you're also still on your own, so don't benefit from the lower variance
103 2011-09-18 02:17:35 <hololeap> if somebody used a nsa supercomputer to generate coins, then nobody would be able to cost-effectively mine anymore... doesn't that seem like an issue?
104 2011-09-18 02:17:36 <luke-jr> and you have to set it up
105 2011-09-18 02:17:37 <b4epoche_> but lower variance != more efficient
106 2011-09-18 02:17:51 <luke-jr> hololeap: indeed
107 2011-09-18 02:18:16 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: yes, I already admitted that a solo pool would be just as efficient :p
108 2011-09-18 02:18:21 <b4epoche_> hololeap: NSA supercomputer would add about 2% to the total network hashrate
109 2011-09-18 02:18:37 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: just moving on to other reasons why you don't want to go that road :p
110 2011-09-18 02:18:57 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: I assume hololeap means a NEW supercomputer designed for the purpose :p
111 2011-09-18 02:19:02 <b4epoche_> luke-jr: I wouldn't complain if you told people that it's probably in their best interest to join a pool
112 2011-09-18 02:19:09 <hololeap> i just meant a really really powerful computer
113 2011-09-18 02:19:26 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: solo pool is still a pool
114 2011-09-18 02:19:29 <b4epoche_> even the top supercomputer today would add a small percentage
115 2011-09-18 02:19:39 <hololeap> or even hundreds of them, say, if somebody started marketing high-power computers for mining use
116 2011-09-18 02:19:48 <Namegduf> You mean like GPUs?
117 2011-09-18 02:19:49 <hololeap> or thousands
118 2011-09-18 02:19:51 <luke-jr> hololeap: why market them? ;)
119 2011-09-18 02:20:07 <luke-jr> better to just use them directly
120 2011-09-18 02:20:08 <Namegduf> Lots of individual people having high power stuff is a Good Thing.
121 2011-09-18 02:20:11 <b4epoche_> joining a pool != setting up a solo pool
122 2011-09-18 02:20:29 <Namegduf> The reason more miners is good is to prevent any one person from being able to get 51%.
123 2011-09-18 02:20:38 <Namegduf> Same applies to more mining power.
124 2011-09-18 02:20:53 <Namegduf> Yes, it would be bad if a single person could build one large or lots of small systems to get 51%
125 2011-09-18 02:20:58 <Namegduf> But already the feasibility of that is dubious
126 2011-09-18 02:21:10 <Namegduf> At least for that example, anyway
127 2011-09-18 02:21:31 <Namegduf> GPU miners made CPU mining unprofitable, and a new kind of mining hardware would just result in a similar shift. It's not a bad thing.
128 2011-09-18 02:22:37 <luke-jr> Namegduf: it is if someone hoards the new kind
129 2011-09-18 02:22:44 <luke-jr> like people did with GPUs initially
130 2011-09-18 02:23:12 <b4epoche_> people hoarded GPUs?
131 2011-09-18 02:23:21 <Namegduf> All mine
132 2011-09-18 02:23:27 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: GPU miner softare
133 2011-09-18 02:23:31 <Namegduf> >:|
134 2011-09-18 02:23:52 <b4epoche_> well, it's not that hard to write a GPU miner
135 2011-09-18 02:23:57 <Namegduf> (I did not ever write any GPU mining software, I was joking about the GPU thing)
136 2011-09-18 02:24:36 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: it's hard for me
137 2011-09-18 02:24:41 <luke-jr> and most people mining now
138 2011-09-18 02:24:51 chuck has quit (Excess Flood)
139 2011-09-18 02:25:13 <b4epoche_> sure, but it doesn't take everyone writing their own...
140 2011-09-18 02:26:03 <b4epoche_> I'm sure 20 people were working on writing them as soon as they realized it was profitable⦠and only one of those has to be noble enough to release the code
141 2011-09-18 02:26:12 <hololeap> my point is, as people pour more and more resources into trying to be the top bitcoin miner, there's goint to be a point where it becomes more money to mine than people can produce
142 2011-09-18 02:26:31 <hololeap> or is that supposed to happen?
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144 2011-09-18 02:26:53 <b4epoche_> hololeap: you have to consider exchange rates
145 2011-09-18 02:27:19 <b4epoche_> at this point $5/btc it's marginally profitable to mine (and depends a lot on how much you pay for electricity)
146 2011-09-18 02:27:45 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: the original GPU miners were never released
147 2011-09-18 02:28:14 <luke-jr> and when GPU mining broke, Bitcoin was much smaller
148 2011-09-18 02:28:16 <b4epoche_> and how long did it take for other folks to write something?
149 2011-09-18 02:28:32 <luke-jr> a couple of months I think
150 2011-09-18 02:28:34 <luke-jr> not sure
151 2011-09-18 02:28:35 <luke-jr> it was before my time
152 2011-09-18 02:29:16 <b4epoche_> hololeap: I think the last difficulty change was negative...
153 2011-09-18 02:29:30 <hololeap> really...
154 2011-09-18 02:29:39 <gmaxwell> hololeap: sure. It's perfectly permitted to do that.
155 2011-09-18 02:29:43 <hololeap> i was just curious anyways, not trying to criticize
156 2011-09-18 02:29:54 <gmaxwell> It also has gone down in the past.. e.g. about 9 months ago or so.
157 2011-09-18 02:30:13 <gmaxwell> Difficulty adjusts in order to keep the rate of coin creation constant.
158 2011-09-18 02:31:08 <gmaxwell> You have to keep in mind that the purpose of mining is not to generate new bitcoins, the purpose of mining is to secure the bitcoin transaction log (block chain) against forgery or modification. The creation of new coin is an intentional side effect...
159 2011-09-18 02:31:33 <hololeap> ok
160 2011-09-18 02:31:34 <gmaxwell> mostly because the system needed a way to distribute the initial wealth 'fairly' and it needed to provide an incentive for people to secure a system that no one was yet using.
161 2011-09-18 02:33:15 cacheson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
162 2011-09-18 02:34:15 <b4epoche_> there's a lot of 'social engineering' in bitcoin
163 2011-09-18 02:34:38 <hololeap> thats cool
164 2011-09-18 02:34:43 <hololeap> that's awesome really
165 2011-09-18 02:34:57 <hololeap> who's that guy behind the venus project?
166 2011-09-18 02:35:19 <hololeap> he had those sorts of ideas
167 2011-09-18 02:36:42 <hololeap> Jacque Fresco
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169 2011-09-18 02:37:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: even with use, people need incentive to do it
170 2011-09-18 02:37:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: hence fees
171 2011-09-18 02:38:20 <forrestv> are "POTENTIAL DEADLOCK DETECTED" messages like http://im.forre.st/pb/88087994.txt normal?
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194 2011-09-18 03:54:33 <LightRider> The Venus Project is great. Have you heard about the Zeitgeist documentaries?
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197 2011-09-18 04:03:38 <cjdelisle> The Penis project is better and it doesn't include a documentry which is a load of horseshit
198 2011-09-18 04:04:49 <freewil> cjdelisle, you'd like that ;)
199 2011-09-18 04:05:54 c00w has joined
200 2011-09-18 04:08:26 <luke-jr> sipa: + printf("connect() failed: %s\n",strerror(WSAGetLastError()));
201 2011-09-18 04:08:32 <luke-jr> sipa: I suspect that is wrong on Windows?
202 2011-09-18 04:09:00 <flying> wtf?
203 2011-09-18 04:09:24 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
204 2011-09-18 04:11:00 <cjdelisle> freewil: who wouldn't? :D
205 2011-09-18 04:14:02 <sacarlson> Â ;;bc,calcd 1000 0.49
206 2011-09-18 04:14:38 <sacarlson> ;;bc,calcd 1000 0.49
207 2011-09-18 04:14:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.49, is 35 minutes and 4 seconds
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210 2011-09-18 04:18:02 <sacarlson> ;;bc,calcd 10000 0.49
211 2011-09-18 04:18:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.49, is 3 minutes and 30 seconds
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244 2011-09-18 05:25:03 <vsrinivas> is the code path that handles reducing block mining rewards active on testnet?
245 2011-09-18 05:26:00 <LightRider> cjdelisle likes penises?
246 2011-09-18 05:26:16 <LightRider> Well, to each their own..
247 2011-09-18 05:26:28 <cjdelisle> yup, love my own :)
248 2011-09-18 05:26:37 <cjdelisle> also music :D http://www.youtube.com/aclfestival
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266 2011-09-18 06:32:24 <pointbiz> new version of bitaddress.org QRCodes now available
267 2011-09-18 06:32:25 <pointbiz> http://www.bitaddress.org/bitaddress.org-v0.4-SHA1-9d3afda22f8cf526330c0387a77e4016fd050323.html
268 2011-09-18 06:34:14 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: how much money have you made from idiots who use private keys you generate so far? 0_o
269 2011-09-18 06:36:05 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: I'm going to oppose the addition of the wallet import/export functionality due to the existance of this site. If _anyone_ uses it thats evidence enough that the functionality is bad for bitcoin users.
270 2011-09-18 06:38:17 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: that perticular site does it all in javascript on the client side but I agree that people should not learn that pattern of getting private keys from websites
271 2011-09-18 06:39:26 <k9quaint> damnit, I was going to make a solidcoin vanity key site :(
272 2011-09-18 06:39:34 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: it does this time you load it, what about the next time you load it?
273 2011-09-18 06:39:35 <k9quaint> talk about easy pickings
274 2011-09-18 06:40:19 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: you accused pointbiz of stealing people's money, do you have anything to back it or is it FUD?
275 2011-09-18 06:40:38 <gmaxwell> I asked a question.
276 2011-09-18 06:40:58 <k9quaint> it is a bad paradigm
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278 2011-09-18 06:42:03 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: moreover, I am highly suspicious becausse I would never willingly run such a site: Even if I ran it completely ethically eventually someone would accuse me of keeping the private keys, and there would be no way for me to defend myself from the attack.
279 2011-09-18 06:42:27 <gmaxwell> I should also note that the domain is registered through an anonymization service.
280 2011-09-18 06:44:17 <k9quaint> that would be an excellent site to inject some javascript code into ;)
281 2011-09-18 06:45:01 <flying> (ï¼¾âï¼¾)
282 2011-09-18 06:45:16 <gmaxwell> Indeed, it's not https too, which mean that basic DNS poisoning attacks would do some great stuff.
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285 2011-09-18 06:46:21 <cjdelisle> Also I think blocking development of bitcoin because it might make it easier for people to be defrauded is not going to help anyone.
286 2011-09-18 06:46:32 <cjdelisle> Protecting the user from himself..
287 2011-09-18 06:46:36 <k9quaint> that is quite a leap of logic
288 2011-09-18 06:46:54 <k9quaint> one could make a perfectly secure browser based implementation of bitcoind
289 2011-09-18 06:47:16 <k9quaint> the penalty for getting it wrong would be quite severe however
290 2011-09-18 06:47:25 <gmaxwell> Of course the software should protect the user from themselves. We're humans, not super humans. Even the smartet and most careful of us make mistakes. The software protects you from yourself in many ways.
291 2011-09-18 06:47:33 <cjdelisle> there's a chrome extension which implements bitcoin
292 2011-09-18 06:47:48 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: "Are you sure you want to delete all the files?"
293 2011-09-18 06:48:21 <gmaxwell> For example, addresses have check digits to prevent coin from being lost due to typos. The software doesn't just display your private key data on the screen where it could be copied from. There is no throbbing erase all my bitcoin button.
294 2011-09-18 06:48:44 <cjdelisle> https://github.com/hach-que/Collate
295 2011-09-18 06:48:47 <k9quaint> I always found the lack of throbbing controls disturbing
296 2011-09-18 06:49:02 <gmaxwell> The notion of how private keys work is tricky and not otherwise required for bitcoin user to safely use the software. (beyond keep your wallet.dat private)
297 2011-09-18 06:49:35 <gmaxwell> The addition of import/export means that users have to understand a bit more in order to be secure and must correctly apply that understanding.
298 2011-09-18 06:49:50 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: but isn't it ok to give your wallet to people on the internet that you just met and seem like really nice people?
299 2011-09-18 06:50:06 <gmaxwell> A user who is doing so would _never_ use that website, so the continued existance of the site is evidence against the feature.
300 2011-09-18 06:50:25 <pointbiz> brb
301 2011-09-18 06:50:28 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: and hell, with wallet crypto even doing that is somewhat less terrible.
302 2011-09-18 06:50:50 <cjdelisle> I will not encrypt my wallet until there is a way to decrypt it
303 2011-09-18 06:51:05 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: I store mine in /dev/null
304 2011-09-18 06:51:15 <k9quaint> write only, 100% secure
305 2011-09-18 06:51:24 <cjdelisle> I don't care if you think I shouldn't need that. I will not encrypt something until I know I can decrypt it.
306 2011-09-18 06:51:52 <gmaxwell> Then don't encrypt it. Wallet encryption isn't that useful of a feature.
307 2011-09-18 06:52:01 <gmaxwell> I trust that you know not to give people you wallet.dat. :)
308 2011-09-18 06:52:09 <k9quaint> and why wouldn't you be able to decrypt it?
309 2011-09-18 06:52:22 <k9quaint> (assuming you do not use my method)
310 2011-09-18 06:52:29 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: there is no option to disable wallet encryption once enabled.
311 2011-09-18 06:52:41 <cjdelisle> so it's a trap
312 2011-09-18 06:52:46 <gmaxwell> There isn't a good argument for one that anyone can come up with.
313 2011-09-18 06:52:54 <cjdelisle> or at least that's the message you send to the user.
314 2011-09-18 06:53:10 <cjdelisle> because it's a UI disaster?
315 2011-09-18 06:53:16 <gmaxwell> And it would be more code that must be carefully tested, won't be tested by most wallets, and could eat you wallet if there is a bug.
316 2011-09-18 06:53:47 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: if the wallet cannot be decrypted, how do you get at the private key?
317 2011-09-18 06:54:02 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: it can be decrypted fine.
318 2011-09-18 06:54:04 <mabus> ill just keep my btc with mtgox and sue them if they lose them
319 2011-09-18 06:54:19 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle's complaint is that you can't deactivate the wallet encryption once you've activated it.
320 2011-09-18 06:54:21 <k9quaint> <cjdelisle> I will not encrypt my wallet until there is a way to decrypt it <-- did I read that wrong?
321 2011-09-18 06:54:25 <k9quaint> ah, I see
322 2011-09-18 06:54:53 <gmaxwell> The ability to deactivate also creates a security vulnerablilty, though I admit not a huge one.
323 2011-09-18 06:54:59 <k9quaint> well, you can deactivate it
324 2011-09-18 06:55:01 <mabus> well wouldnt you be able to theoretically? given you have the encryption keys and encrypted wallet
325 2011-09-18 06:55:02 <cjdelisle> Actually there are a lot of traps in bitcoin, if you update to 0.4 then it crashes when you try to send money, you can't just fire up 0.3.x, you're wallet is basicly borked.
326 2011-09-18 06:55:17 <k9quaint> transfer the money out of the encrypted wallet, make a new wallet without encryption ;)
327 2011-09-18 06:55:25 <cjdelisle> that works
328 2011-09-18 06:55:28 <gmaxwell> mabus: oh sure, in theory, there is just no option in the software.
329 2011-09-18 06:55:35 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: yep. Works just fine.
330 2011-09-18 06:55:56 <pointbiz> gmaxwell: I appreciate your skepticism. Some homework will show you the site has been live less than a month
331 2011-09-18 06:56:17 <pointbiz> gmaxwell: I don't expect anyone who can't read and understand JavaScript to trust the site
332 2011-09-18 06:56:19 <gmaxwell> There are also subtle consequences of decrypting it, for example if you decrypt it then reencrypt it you'll almost certantly end up with private key data left 'erased' on your disk. Try explaining that to users.
333 2011-09-18 06:56:45 <pointbiz> I've provided a signature of the SHA1 hash of the HTML file, that's all the assurance anyone needs that the file has not been altered.
334 2011-09-18 06:56:54 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: the most expirenced js expert in the world couldn't say without hours of review if all that code has a backdoor or not.
335 2011-09-18 06:56:56 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: explain it to users? Just start every sentence with "Hey look! Cows! over there!"
336 2011-09-18 06:57:09 <pointbiz> I recommend you download the HTML and check the SHA1 hash before using
337 2011-09-18 06:57:24 <k9quaint> pointbiz: I would rather have him download my HTML thinking it is yours
338 2011-09-18 06:57:26 <cjdelisle> pointbiz: you are teaching users bad habbits.
339 2011-09-18 06:57:40 <cjdelisle> It doesn't matter how honest you are, it's a bad habbit
340 2011-09-18 06:57:43 baz has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
341 2011-09-18 06:58:10 <pointbiz> gmaxwell: I'll give you a short cut search for "XMLHttpRequest"
342 2011-09-18 06:58:15 <gmaxwell> well, your site is also an attractive target for attackers. Of course, anyone who can change the page can change the sha1, plus no one will actually check it.
343 2011-09-18 06:58:16 <k9quaint> or a bad hobbit, which is worse
344 2011-09-18 06:58:29 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: thats not the only way that it could leak information of course.
345 2011-09-18 06:58:32 <pointbiz> my intention is that someone with more credibility than me with also sign the SHA1 hash
346 2011-09-18 06:58:49 <cjdelisle> I hope nobody with any credibility signs that
347 2011-09-18 06:58:51 <pointbiz> huh?
348 2011-09-18 06:59:07 <cjdelisle> it is going to teach people that it's just fine to import keys you found on the web.
349 2011-09-18 06:59:12 <k9quaint> pointbiz: your website is missing a letter
350 2011-09-18 06:59:29 <cjdelisle> People don't *see* that you are honest, they just see a website that tells them a key.
351 2011-09-18 07:00:03 <gmaxwell> Doesn't matter if pointbiz is honest. His site could be hacked, your DNS could be poisoned.
352 2011-09-18 07:00:18 <gmaxwell> Ninjas could hold guns to pointbiz's head.
353 2011-09-18 07:00:24 <cjdelisle> ^and the next copycat *won't* be honest
354 2011-09-18 07:00:25 <BTCPoliceLogger> cjdelisle: Error: "and" is not a valid command.
355 2011-09-18 07:00:25 <pointbiz> k9quaint: what letter?
356 2011-09-18 07:00:30 <k9quaint> pointbiz: s
357 2011-09-18 07:00:35 <zamgo> Hey look! Ninja cows! over there!
358 2011-09-18 07:00:36 <cjdelisle> ^bash reboot
359 2011-09-18 07:00:36 <BTCPoliceLogger> cjdelisle: Error: "bash" is not a valid command.
360 2011-09-18 07:00:46 <gmaxwell> You could have a browser addon that happens to be copying data about pages you view to other sites.
361 2011-09-18 07:00:55 arcatan has quit (Quit: THE ONLY RULE IS WORK.)
362 2011-09-18 07:02:06 <cjdelisle> OTOH Keeping the user safe from themselves is a thankless job, they will always hate you for restricting them and they will hate bitcoin for being broken, restrictive, and treating them like children. It is more important to provide them a user experience that makes them feel good than do things which will stop them from making bad decisions.
363 2011-09-18 07:02:29 <pointbiz> gmaxwell: please explain the ways the site can leak information?
364 2011-09-18 07:02:44 <k9quaint> pointbiz: start with adding an s to the end of the http
365 2011-09-18 07:02:46 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
366 2011-09-18 07:03:14 <cjdelisle> Little things like warning them that their wallet is going to be unreadable to 3.x when they convert it to 4.0 will go a long way toward giving people piece of mind that is needed to get bitcoin to be used.
367 2011-09-18 07:03:26 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: For example, there may be weaknesses in the browser that allows other pages to find out about previously loaded data urls.
368 2011-09-18 07:03:48 <cjdelisle> Also key import/export is important because people can and will write their keys down on paper and put them away where they are physically safe.
369 2011-09-18 07:03:51 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: I wasn't under the impresion that the bdb version change was actually intentional. Whats the status of that?
370 2011-09-18 07:04:03 <cjdelisle> bluematt says they are.
371 2011-09-18 07:04:49 <cjdelisle> IMO the absolute most important thing is to hold people's hands through the process. Explain each step and make them feel comfotable.
372 2011-09-18 07:04:57 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: that doesn't work so well, since your money will end up spread across many invisible addresses due to change generation. If you attempt to backup that way you'll probably get burned. Better to just backup the whole wallet.dat.
373 2011-09-18 07:05:40 <cjdelisle> That's fine but the format now is bound to the bitcoin version.
374 2011-09-18 07:05:54 <gmaxwell> It's forwards compatible.
375 2011-09-18 07:06:17 <cjdelisle> It would be better if people can see 'key' : { 'private': 'hshsjld', 'public': 'shfhkjlhf' } // amount 25BTC
376 2011-09-18 07:06:51 Rabbit67890 has joined
377 2011-09-18 07:07:05 <cjdelisle> yea but when someone installs version 4 and it updates their wallet and promptly crashes, they are going to want your balls in a jar.
378 2011-09-18 07:07:29 <cjdelisle> that is not the kind of user experience we need.
379 2011-09-18 07:07:46 <k9quaint> cjdelisle: I would never upgrade my wallet, I would install fresh somewhere else, and transfer the money from the old version
380 2011-09-18 07:07:52 <k9quaint> but I am paranoid
381 2011-09-18 07:08:11 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
382 2011-09-18 07:08:29 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: best to make version 4 not promptly crash then!
383 2011-09-18 07:08:39 <pointbiz> i like the idea of seeing my key
384 2011-09-18 07:08:42 <da2ce7> k9quaint, you should still update your wallet... in the case you receive any coins to your old addresses
385 2011-09-18 07:08:52 <cjdelisle> there will be some computer where that happens, mark my word.
386 2011-09-18 07:08:55 <pointbiz> vanitygen is cool... but when you download software you have to worry about trojans
387 2011-09-18 07:09:03 <pointbiz> javascript... solves that problem
388 2011-09-18 07:09:08 <cjdelisle> no it doesn't
389 2011-09-18 07:09:11 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: sure. And people will help that user recover.
390 2011-09-18 07:09:12 <pointbiz> if you read the code
391 2011-09-18 07:09:26 <k9quaint> da2ce7: I am too cool to spend old coins sir!
392 2011-09-18 07:09:26 <pointbiz> and the code doesnt take that long to review
393 2011-09-18 07:09:49 <pointbiz> the Crypto and Bitcoin stuff and be diff'd against other sources of that code
394 2011-09-18 07:09:52 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: there is no way to actually validate the code. Checking software for subtle hidden compromises is quite difficult.
395 2011-09-18 07:09:54 <cjdelisle> pointbiz: we've been over this, it doesn't matter how honest you are, the next guy won't be and it will be *your* failt because you taught people that getting keys from the internet is ok.
396 2011-09-18 07:10:28 <gmaxwell> Most importantly, the validation effort isn't conserved. Every load could be different software.
397 2011-09-18 07:10:47 <k9quaint> pointbiz: at least test it out on solidcoin first ;)
398 2011-09-18 07:10:48 <cjdelisle> IMO most important is that it's a bad pattern
399 2011-09-18 07:11:18 <cjdelisle> It's like leaving your keys in your car, it works until it doesn't
400 2011-09-18 07:11:38 <gmaxwell> with the engine running and window down in the ghetto.
401 2011-09-18 07:12:04 <k9quaint> I do that all the time in GTA
402 2011-09-18 07:12:13 <gmaxwell> You have a gun in GTA, no?
403 2011-09-18 07:12:16 sneak_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
404 2011-09-18 07:12:37 <k9quaint> are you saying my gun is made of javascript?
405 2011-09-18 07:12:44 <Rabbit67890> yes.
406 2011-09-18 07:12:44 * k9quaint tears the analogy envelope
407 2011-09-18 07:13:38 <k9quaint> I hate the internet, because I am so bad at car analogies :(
408 2011-09-18 07:13:57 <gmaxwell> But would you buy an internet with the hood welded shut?
409 2011-09-18 07:14:00 <Rabbit67890> o_o
410 2011-09-18 07:14:05 <pointbiz> well as you can see from bitaddress.org i'm not really teaching anyone anything, at this point you have to have some indepth knowledge of bitcoin for the site to make any sense
411 2011-09-18 07:14:17 <pointbiz> I agree it's bad to make people think they can get addresses from websites
412 2011-09-18 07:14:31 <pointbiz> so i guess instawallet is worse then ?
413 2011-09-18 07:14:36 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
414 2011-09-18 07:14:37 <cjdelisle> then why does bitaddress.org give people addresses?!
415 2011-09-18 07:14:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 145836 | Current Difficulty: 1755425.3203287 | Next Difficulty At Block: 147167 | Next Difficulty In: 1331 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 12 hours, 29 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1707133.74172241
416 2011-09-18 07:15:15 <pointbiz> cjdelisle: you give them to yourself. LOLOL
417 2011-09-18 07:15:16 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: The vulnerablity in the case of instalwallet is far more intutive to people.
418 2011-09-18 07:16:07 <cjdelisle> pointbiz: you know full well that users don't know where the address came from, you're trolling and you are beginning to look like a criminal now.
419 2011-09-18 07:16:13 <gmaxwell> (and considering that a webwallet site is responsible for the biggest recorded theft of bitcoin also suggests that it's bad independant of the users ability to understand the risks)
420 2011-09-18 07:16:54 sneak has joined
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423 2011-09-18 07:16:57 <mabus> and the perpretrator still makes a tv show lol
424 2011-09-18 07:17:22 <pointbiz> so now i'm a troll? LOL
425 2011-09-18 07:17:49 <pointbiz> let me re-adjust the context here. my tool is for advanced users, who can read javascript
426 2011-09-18 07:17:52 <cjdelisle> you are pushing your site awfly hard
427 2011-09-18 07:18:23 <k9quaint> awfly: combination of awesome and supahfly
428 2011-09-18 07:18:24 <pointbiz> i'm just posting updates the bitcoin-dev channel with a new bitcoin related tool
429 2011-09-18 07:18:36 <pointbiz> i'm on version 0.4 and today people are accusing me of XYZ
430 2011-09-18 07:18:43 <pointbiz> and i'm humouring you guys
431 2011-09-18 07:19:01 <cjdelisle> it is a site that asks people to trust you (because people in reality don't read js)
432 2011-09-18 07:19:10 <pointbiz> the site is just a for fun project. 95% of the javascript i didnt even write
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437 2011-09-18 07:19:29 <cjdelisle> #1 you are pushing it really hard. #2 it asks people to trust it with their money.
438 2011-09-18 07:19:31 <gmaxwell> pointbiz: so, if I put up five verions of your tool, and promise least one of which wasn't compromised, would you pick one and generate an address and send 100 btc to it?
439 2011-09-18 07:19:42 <cjdelisle> there are 2 things you have in common with a scam artist.
440 2011-09-18 07:19:55 <k9quaint> plus, at this point most of the gullible users flock to alternate crypto currencies and get their money stolen there
441 2011-09-18 07:20:16 <k9quaint> it would be interesting to see usage stats on the address creation site
442 2011-09-18 07:20:18 <pointbiz> it's one thing to be skeptical about my site then it's another thing to be mean to me
443 2011-09-18 07:20:25 <BTCTrader_> what is the time-travel attack?
444 2011-09-18 07:21:02 <cjdelisle> if you are honest then you will understand why your UI is flawed and consider chainging it.
445 2011-09-18 07:21:15 <cjdelisle> it gou are a scammer then I'm going to beat you like a red headed mule
446 2011-09-18 07:21:23 <k9quaint> BTCTrader_: one aspect is - difficulty is based on time, if you can manipulate the time, you can manipulate the difficulty
447 2011-09-18 07:21:25 <pointbiz> gmaxwell: i sent 0,10 BTC to the address i generated on my own version.
448 2011-09-18 07:21:45 <k9quaint> 0,10? A EURO!! GET HIM!!
449 2011-09-18 07:22:05 <mabus> you didnt notice from 'humouring'?
450 2011-09-18 07:22:19 <BTCTrader_> ok
451 2011-09-18 07:22:24 <k9quaint> mabus: I was too busy masturbating to my full length poster of michelle bachman
452 2011-09-18 07:22:32 <cjdelisle> wooo
453 2011-09-18 07:22:41 <mabus> k9quaint: you need to learn to multitask
454 2011-09-18 07:22:44 <k9quaint> I hit enter didn't I...
455 2011-09-18 07:23:09 <cjdelisle> pointbiz: why don't you put some of your effort into something like this: https://github.com/hach-que/Collate
456 2011-09-18 07:24:33 <cjdelisle> that's a chrome extension so as long as it's honest, people install it and from then on, they are all set.
457 2011-09-18 07:25:48 <pointbiz> and it stores your wallet locally on your computer?
458 2011-09-18 07:25:55 <mabus> but how do i steal your bitcoins with it cjdelisle ? waste of time
459 2011-09-18 07:26:54 <cjdelisle> I hope that's how it works, I have not read it.
460 2011-09-18 07:27:10 <pointbiz> so that's the same as the official bitcoin
461 2011-09-18 07:27:15 <cjdelisle> Browsers offer local storage to addons and even js running in a webpage.
462 2011-09-18 07:27:41 <pointbiz> for anonymity reason it's nice to use a tool like vanitygen
463 2011-09-18 07:27:59 <cjdelisle> there is no anonymity, this is bitcoin
464 2011-09-18 07:28:00 <pointbiz> it lets you make a wallet outside of your bitcoin wallet.dat that's all inter-associated
465 2011-09-18 07:28:11 <cjdelisle> there isn't any
466 2011-09-18 07:28:14 <cjdelisle> none
467 2011-09-18 07:28:25 <cjdelisle> big tux sees all
468 2011-09-18 07:28:27 <pointbiz> well if you read into it it's varying degrees of anonymity
469 2011-09-18 07:28:31 <pointbiz> lol
470 2011-09-18 07:28:41 <cjdelisle> really, I've seen the stuff myself
471 2011-09-18 07:28:47 <cjdelisle> money laundring is impossible
472 2011-09-18 07:28:49 <pointbiz> if an address is outside your local computer wallet.dat then it's not associated with that wallet
473 2011-09-18 07:28:54 <pointbiz> it may be associated with you in other ways
474 2011-09-18 07:29:02 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * ebd6bd4d368e r102 /bitcoin-jsonrpc/src/main/java/com/shadworld/jsonrpc/JsonRpcClient.java: -- add keep-alive header to json-rpc client requests.
475 2011-09-18 07:29:03 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 1614b422f504 r103 /bitcoin-jsonrpc/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/conf/Res.java:
476 2011-09-18 07:29:03 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - add some extra trace targets
477 2011-09-18 07:29:03 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - accept unknown trace target registration for add hoc usage.
478 2011-09-18 07:29:04 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * a6436e85eaea r104 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (9 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
479 2011-09-18 07:29:04 <CIA-101> poolserverj: improve worksource syncing on block change
480 2011-09-18 07:29:04 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - prevent entries entering cache during out of sync period
481 2011-09-18 07:29:05 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - synchronize the change of sync status process
482 2011-09-18 07:29:05 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - remove redundant sourcesOnCurrentBlockArray
483 2011-09-18 07:29:06 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - change NotifyLongpollClients thread to a Runnable task to avoid having to start up a new thread.
484 2011-09-18 07:29:06 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - acceptNotifyBlockChange now had double check inside sync block to prevent double accepts.
485 2011-09-18 07:29:31 <pointbiz> casascius has a C# tool that lets you make your own bitcoin address/private key as well
486 2011-09-18 07:30:06 <pointbiz> sometimes it's nice to make disposable addresses or whatever the use-case is
487 2011-09-18 07:30:09 <pointbiz> paper wallet etc
488 2011-09-18 07:30:24 <pointbiz> so i made a tool that is something i'd use myself
489 2011-09-18 07:30:39 <pointbiz> im not a chrome plugin guy, but im a javascript guy
490 2011-09-18 07:31:08 <cjdelisle> plugins are js
491 2011-09-18 07:31:46 <pointbiz> ok. thanks for the link.
492 2011-09-18 07:32:35 <pointbiz> someone is building strongcoin.com or .org
493 2011-09-18 07:32:49 <pointbiz> i guess it's a javascript wallet like that chrome plugin you mentioned
494 2011-09-18 07:32:57 <cjdelisle> heh speaking of c# - MrTiggr has a c# tool that pulls your financial pants down. bitcoin for money laundring = bad plan
495 2011-09-18 07:33:01 <pointbiz> i decided to just do something small
496 2011-09-18 07:33:22 <cjdelisle> well you can work it in to one of those projects I'm sure
497 2011-09-18 07:33:24 molecular has joined
498 2011-09-18 07:33:54 <pointbiz> i sent back some code to Stephan Thomas who manages the bitoinjs project
499 2011-09-18 07:34:07 <cjdelisle> and bitcoin in the browser might be nice for like donations and paywalls where you can practically click and drag bitcoin into a website.
500 2011-09-18 07:34:45 <cjdelisle> but the user interface needs to show the user very clearly that it's part of the browser, not part of the site.
501 2011-09-18 07:35:52 <pointbiz> ok, so im going to sleep
502 2011-09-18 07:36:14 <cjdelisle> gnight, sorry for riding you about that, I hope you understand why it is a bad path for users to take
503 2011-09-18 07:37:17 <pointbiz> yeah, i do understand regarding the bad path and I advise people to stay skeptical.
504 2011-09-18 07:37:34 <pointbiz> as Casascius mentioned to me, someone had to do this and it just turned out to be me
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508 2011-09-18 07:47:15 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * d836c0532970 r105 /poolserverj-main/doc/config-samples/local-daemon.properties: yet more sample config updates...
509 2011-09-18 07:47:15 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 37e29f54951f r106 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/ (4 files): lib updates for 0.3.0rc1
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511 2011-09-18 07:48:20 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * afd421ef8717 r107 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/ (4 files): why won't these libs ever commit first time?!
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517 2011-09-18 08:06:46 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 4fc7b3971f40 r108 /poolserverj-main/license.txt: license update - now a real open source license.
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527 2011-09-18 08:27:12 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 9bedfb4acf5d r109 /poolserverj-main/etc/psj_sigmon/0.5/ (7 files): added psj_sigmon source - this is the native longpoll signal listener that receives native longpolls from bitcoind and sends a meaningful signal to poolserverj via a network socket.
528 2011-09-18 08:27:12 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * c86bc44da1e0 r110 /poolserverj-main/changelog.txt: update changelog.txt for 0.3.0rc1 release
529 2011-09-18 08:27:12 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * bba409c0f293 r111 /poolserverj-main/changelog.txt: update changelog.txt for 0.3.0rc1 release
530 2011-09-18 08:27:12 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 4d7e5f1576e0 r112 /.hgtags: Added tag 0.3.0rc1 for changeset bba409c0f293
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599 2011-09-18 11:58:54 <diki> fuck
600 2011-09-18 11:59:00 <diki> i screwed my mysql installation
601 2011-09-18 11:59:07 <diki> the stupid mysql.sock file isnt being created...
602 2011-09-18 11:59:15 <diki> ok, it is, but in instant its gone
603 2011-09-18 11:59:16 erus` has joined
604 2011-09-18 11:59:21 <diki> the mysql process terminates
605 2011-09-18 11:59:28 <bstation> which version?
606 2011-09-18 12:00:05 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Kano * r14c557faa9ca cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: Watch USB disk space in /var/log/
607 2011-09-18 12:00:06 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Kano * r31a9176977d5 cgminer/linux-usb-cgminer: Add details of how to set the password for ssh
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615 2011-09-18 12:29:03 <flying> Lateralus
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624 2011-09-18 12:53:58 <UukGoblin> so what's going on?
625 2011-09-18 12:54:08 <UukGoblin> eligius is down at least, some reports of other pools being down..
626 2011-09-18 12:54:13 <UukGoblin> yet total hashrate is skyrocketing?
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630 2011-09-18 12:57:55 <Graet> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ skyrocketing?
631 2011-09-18 12:58:05 <Graet> ozco.in is up :D
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634 2011-09-18 13:03:44 <UukGoblin> well ok I maybe exaggerated a bit
635 2011-09-18 13:03:48 <UukGoblin> but definitely higher than past week
636 2011-09-18 13:04:26 <sipa> maybe
637 2011-09-18 13:05:39 <Graet> :)
638 2011-09-18 13:05:50 <Graet> some ppl over *coin coming back?
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645 2011-09-18 13:09:41 <Blitzboom> UukGoblin: what is?
646 2011-09-18 13:12:41 <UukGoblin> Blitzboom, total hashrate
647 2011-09-18 13:14:11 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
648 2011-09-18 13:18:52 <UukGoblin> yeah
649 2011-09-18 13:19:13 <UukGoblin> I'm saying it went up despite several reports of various pools being down
650 2011-09-18 13:19:16 <UukGoblin> eligius one of them
651 2011-09-18 13:19:41 <UukGoblin> which smells of an attack
652 2011-09-18 13:20:16 <bstation> that would be a nice moment to try out https://bitcoin-station.com (scnr)
653 2011-09-18 13:20:22 <sipa> how lang has it been down?
654 2011-09-18 13:22:09 <Graet> ozco.in is 0fee and pays txn with blocks
655 2011-09-18 13:24:51 <UukGoblin> sipa, eligius about 5h
656 2011-09-18 13:25:04 <sipa> no way you'll see that effect on my graphs yet
657 2011-09-18 13:25:33 <lfm> ;;bc,eligius
658 2011-09-18 13:25:38 <gribble> 2648563.165
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663 2011-09-18 13:30:01 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r9696b4d6ba89 cgminer/main.c: Get rid of the convoluted way we detect whether LP discovered the new block and just use the work retrieved by the LP to know.
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668 2011-09-18 13:34:09 <UukGoblin> sipa, true
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673 2011-09-18 13:40:39 TD[gone] is now known as TD
674 2011-09-18 13:47:29 <lfm> ;;seen luke-jr
675 2011-09-18 13:47:29 <gribble> luke-jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 9 hours, 38 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <luke-jr> sipa: I suspect that is wrong on Windows?
676 2011-09-18 13:50:13 <luke-jr> â¦
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735 2011-09-18 16:47:22 <Onionnion> hello hello
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740 2011-09-18 16:49:36 <Onionnion> Keep having some trouble getting the client to run, was working a while ago but randomly started crashing. error on Linux
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771 2011-09-18 17:25:33 <b4epoche_> for some reason I'm not getting testnet-in-a-box to work today...
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773 2011-09-18 17:26:35 <tcatm> neofutur: ping. can you explain cross currency trades to me?
774 2011-09-18 17:26:49 <b4epoche_> I'm not sure what I changed⦠and I know following the directions exactly doesn't work. I did something different before and can't remember. Any suggestions?
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779 2011-09-18 17:27:43 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r7ba6d40 / (4 files in 3 dirs): Switched to Mongoose 2.1.3. We're back on mainline. - http://git.io/8N4M7w
780 2011-09-18 17:27:43 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r8cffe07 / .npmignore : Added some missing entries to npmignore. - http://git.io/m_PpIQ
781 2011-09-18 17:28:19 <TD> tcatm: you mean between crypto-currencies?
782 2011-09-18 17:29:26 <tcatm> TD: no. whatever mtgox does when you trade eur->usd->btc or whatever it is they do.
783 2011-09-18 17:29:30 <TD> ah ok
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785 2011-09-18 17:32:23 <b4epoche_> they don't just do two exchanges?
786 2011-09-18 17:32:45 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rde6aabe / lib/blockchainmanager.js : Nicer block download log messages. - http://git.io/EH8sNg
787 2011-09-18 17:32:45 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r3533457 / (lib/bitcoin.js package.json): Bump version to 0.1. - http://git.io/8ehOYA
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789 2011-09-18 17:34:32 <b4epoche_> okay, testnet-box working⦠wxbitcoin client just wasn't updating Tx's
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800 2011-09-18 17:57:47 <devdr> What's up
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808 2011-09-18 18:09:04 <iddo> tcatm: if you have eur and you trade with someone who sells x btc for y usd, then you pay y*(real time eur/usd exchange rate)*1.025 eur for the x btc
809 2011-09-18 18:09:55 <iddo> the 1.025 fee is supposed to encourage people to trade in their local currencies
810 2011-09-18 18:11:48 <iddo> because i think 2.5% fee is higher than what banks charge to convert currency
811 2011-09-18 18:12:52 <tcatm> hrm.
812 2011-09-18 18:13:02 <tcatm> it's starting to make sense :)
813 2011-09-18 18:13:31 <iddo> that's what MT told me a couple of weeks ago, i hope nothing changed since then... better ask him if you want to verify
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829 2011-09-18 18:24:04 <flying> ahem, peniskitten?
830 2011-09-18 18:28:11 <iddo> flying: are you a bot?
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867 2011-09-18 19:49:30 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r214 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Implement a way of getting a list of transactions in the wallet, ordered by recency. This doesn't yet support pending transactions, as those can't (yet) be added to the wallet.
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870 2011-09-18 19:55:49 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r215 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Second part ... refresh timestamp when confirming a spend to the wallet.
871 2011-09-18 20:00:09 realazthat has joined
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873 2011-09-18 20:03:29 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r216 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ (PeerAddress.java VersionMessage.java): Implement a couple of (weak) hashCode methods to go with equals(). Resolves issue 82.
874 2011-09-18 20:07:07 Noxitu has joined
875 2011-09-18 20:11:27 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r217 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Wallet.java: Fix the Wallet unit tests by allowing null blocks in Wallet.receive() again.
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881 2011-09-18 20:18:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r218 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
882 2011-09-18 20:18:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: Make WalletEventListener an interface with a no-op implementation. Add an
883 2011-09-18 20:18:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: onChange() method to the default implementation that is called by the others,
884 2011-09-18 20:18:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: for cases where you don't care about what specifically changed, just that a
885 2011-09-18 20:18:56 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: change happened.
886 2011-09-18 20:20:10 Joric has quit ()
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888 2011-09-18 20:23:44 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r219 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Always pass the wallet into the event listeners on every event.
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901 2011-09-18 21:03:53 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r220 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Introduce a mock clock, use it to improve the getRecentTransactions unit tests. Fix a seconds/milliseconds confusion pointed out by Andreas. Resolves issue 43.
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911 2011-09-18 21:14:57 <talpan> hello, can someone please tell me where exactly a new public address is generated within the sourcecode
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915 2011-09-18 21:18:01 <tcatm> talpan: GenerateNewKey in keystore.cpp
916 2011-09-18 21:18:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r221 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Add a getTransactions() method that returns a set of all transactions, optionally including those which are dead and inactive. Add an argument for returning dead transactions in getRecentTransactions(). Updates issue 3.
917 2011-09-18 21:19:27 tpocra has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
918 2011-09-18 21:22:33 <luke-jr> TD: you know it's Sunday, not Friday? :P
919 2011-09-18 21:22:48 * TD glances at clock
920 2011-09-18 21:22:49 <TD> oops
921 2011-09-18 21:23:33 <sipa> at least it is monday is some places of the world
922 2011-09-18 21:24:12 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
923 2011-09-18 21:24:42 <talpan> tcatm: thank you
924 2011-09-18 21:27:16 <diki> which ports are essential for bitcoin?
925 2011-09-18 21:27:21 <diki> except 8332 i mean
926 2011-09-18 21:27:26 <luke-jr> 8332 is not one of them
927 2011-09-18 21:27:28 <luke-jr> just 8333
928 2011-09-18 21:27:30 <tcatm> diki: tcp 8333
929 2011-09-18 21:27:31 <diki> i am getting only 8 connections on my _VM_
930 2011-09-18 21:27:31 talpan has left ("Verlassend")
931 2011-09-18 21:27:46 <tcatm> diki: what's your IP?
932 2011-09-18 21:27:48 <diki> i've forwarded port 8333 but still 8
933 2011-09-18 21:28:19 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
934 2011-09-18 21:28:30 <diki> tcatm:well i'd rather not post it here
935 2011-09-18 21:28:39 <diki> although people can see it on join
936 2011-09-18 21:28:46 <luke-jr> [17:19:23] [Whois] diki is diki@46.40.126.253 (dikidera)
937 2011-09-18 21:28:49 <lfm> 46.40.126.253
938 2011-09-18 21:28:58 <diki> luke-jr:well thank you luke
939 2011-09-18 21:29:03 <diki> may _god_ bless you
940 2011-09-18 21:29:05 <luke-jr> yw lazy bum
941 2011-09-18 21:29:31 <luke-jr> [17:20:07] [Error] _god_: No such nick/channel.
942 2011-09-18 21:29:46 <sipa> try peer
943 2011-09-18 21:29:52 <diki> sipa?
944 2011-09-18 21:30:14 <sipa> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Peer
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949 2011-09-18 21:31:20 <TD> luke-jr: btw, are you really embedding prayers into the coinbase inputs?
950 2011-09-18 21:31:29 <diki> TD:no need to ask
951 2011-09-18 21:31:35 <diki> there is a ton of posts about it in the forums
952 2011-09-18 21:31:53 <luke-jr> TD: was testing namecoin merged mining integration with them, yes
953 2011-09-18 21:31:59 <luke-jr> ran out a while ago tho
954 2011-09-18 21:32:02 <TD> ah ok
955 2011-09-18 21:32:08 <luke-jr> and namecoin guys kinda falling through :P
956 2011-09-18 21:32:18 <TD> merging mining requires you to embed hashes rather than prayers ...
957 2011-09-18 21:32:27 <luke-jr> yeah, I was hex encoding them ;)
958 2011-09-18 21:32:34 <sipa> ...
959 2011-09-18 21:32:58 <lfm> td strings ~/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat
960 2011-09-18 21:33:24 <TD> yes, i know how to find strings in the block chain. i was just wondering what the motivation was
961 2011-09-18 21:33:33 <TD> and whether this would be permanent eligius policy. but sounds like not.
962 2011-09-18 21:33:49 <luke-jr> TD: for now, it's an added feature people can suggest coinbases for blocks ;P
963 2011-09-18 21:33:56 <lfm> TD: Oh Luke-jr is an ardent catholic
964 2011-09-18 21:34:24 <TD> that sounds like a fast way to get something controversial or illegal added to a block ....
965 2011-09-18 21:34:30 <TD> hashes are one thing
966 2011-09-18 21:34:34 <TD> arbitrary text is another
967 2011-09-18 21:35:02 <luke-jr> TD: keep in mind the coinbase was designed for arbitrary text originally
968 2011-09-18 21:35:12 <luke-jr> and yes, obviously I'm censoring what I put in them
969 2011-09-18 21:35:15 <TD> ok
970 2011-09-18 21:35:33 <luke-jr> I've decided against the suggestion to put an illegal number in, for example :p
971 2011-09-18 21:36:03 <lfm> you mean like a csss key or something?
972 2011-09-18 21:36:06 <nanotube> today's illegal number is: 2!
973 2011-09-18 21:36:07 <luke-jr> yeah
974 2011-09-18 21:36:10 <nanotube> heh
975 2011-09-18 21:36:14 <luke-jr> nanotube: ow
976 2011-09-18 21:36:36 <nanotube> heh
977 2011-09-18 21:36:58 <gmaxwell> It'll be great when someone embeds an A/V triggering string.
978 2011-09-18 21:37:11 <sipa> what if someone added something definitely unwanted in the block chain, in a weakly encrypted form
979 2011-09-18 21:37:33 <diki> sipa:goatse?
980 2011-09-18 21:37:39 <nanotube> sipa: obviously, then there will be something unwanted, in a weakly encrypted form, in the blockchain.
981 2011-09-18 21:37:50 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
982 2011-09-18 21:37:53 <nanotube> heh
983 2011-09-18 21:38:09 <sipa> and than reveal the key some time later
984 2011-09-18 21:38:44 <lfm> sipa what if it isnt encrypted?
985 2011-09-18 21:38:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: what if I told you an offset in Ï where child porn happens to be?
986 2011-09-18 21:39:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, i know that argument
987 2011-09-18 21:39:16 <sipa> but there is a difference: the child porn in pi wasn't put there on purpose
988 2011-09-18 21:39:31 EvanR has joined
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991 2011-09-18 21:40:05 <lfm> or something "strongly encrypted" with a one time pad?
992 2011-09-18 21:40:23 <lfm> it may already be there
993 2011-09-18 21:41:10 <nanotube> lfm: indeed. let me just give you a onetimepad that will let you decrypt $recentmovie from the blockchain. :)
994 2011-09-18 21:41:15 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nothing we can do to stop it, so kinda keeping it hush hush :p
995 2011-09-18 21:41:15 MUILTFN has quit ()
996 2011-09-18 21:41:16 <nanotube> or $anythingyouwant
997 2011-09-18 21:41:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: It's reasonable to expect that the block chain will eventually contain all possible strings. :) In any case, the information for recovering that information is the real 'illegal information', not the blockchain.
998 2011-09-18 21:41:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: really? a generic coinbase dumper is illegal?
999 2011-09-18 21:42:09 <luke-jr> most formats can tolerate an extranonce on the end ;)
1000 2011-09-18 21:42:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I coinbase dumper doesn't direct you to any particular piece of information.
1001 2011-09-18 21:42:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it could dump each block as a file
1002 2011-09-18 21:42:41 <wpl> Hello. I try to compile BitCoin on Windows and stumple upon compiling OpenSSL. Untaring the archive with 'tar xfz' result in a lot of 'Cannot create symlink to ...' errors in the MSYS shell. Any hints?
1003 2011-09-18 21:42:52 <lfm> gmaxwell: you would argue that the bitcoin block explorer is illegal?
1004 2011-09-18 21:43:18 <gmaxwell> lfm: of course not, don't take a retarded view of this.
1005 2011-09-18 21:43:38 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: would it be, if it displayed coinbases in an <img> tag?
1006 2011-09-18 21:43:49 <lfm> but it would be a tool to retreive stuff from the block chain
1007 2011-09-18 21:44:04 <gmaxwell> I linked to this http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 last time this subject came up, it's still good reading.
1008 2011-09-18 21:44:33 <gmaxwell> lfm: A generic tool isn't instructions for obtaining a particular piece of information.
1009 2011-09-18 21:44:44 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: would it be, if it displayed coinbases in an <img> tag?
1010 2011-09-18 21:45:00 wardearia has joined
1011 2011-09-18 21:45:02 <luke-jr> or does the URI become illegal?
1012 2011-09-18 21:45:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: maybe!
1013 2011-09-18 21:45:47 nhodges has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1014 2011-09-18 21:45:59 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what about the children who just want to use BE to see their allowance?
1015 2011-09-18 21:46:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: What of them?
1016 2011-09-18 21:46:55 <gmaxwell> You think you're being sneaky and creating a cognative trap, but you're just being silly.
1017 2011-09-18 21:47:08 <luke-jr> no, it's a real scenario
1018 2011-09-18 21:47:13 <gmaxwell> You're like the neophite that asks if god can make a rock so big he can't lift it.
1019 2011-09-18 21:47:21 <luke-jr> no, I know the answer to that is Yes
1020 2011-09-18 21:47:41 <gmaxwell> And then claims whatever the answers is is proof of the non-existance of god.
1021 2011-09-18 21:48:28 <luke-jr> major Block Explorer site displays coinbases in an <img> tag if it detects an image format. coinbase contains CP image data. block happens to contain kid's allowance txn. kid happens ot use major BE site.
1022 2011-09-18 21:48:32 <luke-jr> what then?
1023 2011-09-18 21:49:09 <gmaxwell> The answers is that generic tools aren't problematic, if someone made some crazy "show a block as image" functionality, they might evenutally have to block some urls if people do stupid things.
1024 2011-09-18 21:49:48 <gmaxwell> of course, you're mostly giving a reason why adding an image viewer would be a bad ideaâ it'll encourage super moronic behavior.
1025 2011-09-18 21:50:19 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1026 2011-09-18 21:52:07 <gmaxwell> I'd be more worried about someone inserting a virus string and instantly bringing down half the bitcoin network at once.
1027 2011-09-18 21:52:16 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1028 2011-09-18 21:52:57 <lfm> gmaxwell: you know the string in block zero?
1029 2011-09-18 21:53:54 <gmaxwell> lfm: sure.
1030 2011-09-18 21:55:01 <lfm> the block explorer could be designed to show that string and subsequently show strings like it, right?
1031 2011-09-18 21:55:17 <gmaxwell> (it's proof of the earliest possible creation date of the blockchainâ it's been helpful for me when arguing with idiots who insisted satoshi mined by himself for a year in orde to 'cheat')
1032 2011-09-18 21:55:32 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt glad to hear of progress. Sorry I have been absent - busy with work stuff.
1033 2011-09-18 21:55:33 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1034 2011-09-18 21:55:36 <gmaxwell> lfm: it could, but that would be a bad idea.
1035 2011-09-18 21:55:52 <gmaxwell> Because it will just encourage moronic behavior.
1036 2011-09-18 21:55:54 <lfm> mostly just a bunch of prayers
1037 2011-09-18 21:56:12 <gmaxwell> As I saidâ¦
1038 2011-09-18 21:56:14 <gmaxwell> ;)
1039 2011-09-18 21:56:22 <lfm> yes I agree the prayers may be moronic but that would be trolling
1040 2011-09-18 21:56:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: regarding your comment on the private key import/export pull request
1041 2011-09-18 21:56:55 <gmaxwell> Well, no opinion on the prayers themselves. Putting them in the blockchain is silly.
1042 2011-09-18 21:56:56 <sipa> i think the solution is GUI support with warnings
1043 2011-09-18 21:57:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: Thats probably the best we can do.
1044 2011-09-18 21:57:29 EPiSKiNG- has quit ()
1045 2011-09-18 21:58:43 <sipa> many people (especially those you fear using it to do silly things) will see using RPC as 'messing around', especially if it can be done from the GUI as well
1046 2011-09-18 21:59:06 <sipa> maybe we can add an option to do an 'import-and-transfer-to-own-address'
1047 2011-09-18 21:59:56 EPiSKiNG- has joined
1048 2011-09-18 22:00:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: I've thought before that it might be useful to have the ability to flag an address as tainted, where the client will agressively tranfer any funds that hit it to a new address.
1049 2011-09-18 22:00:36 <sipa> that may be useful indeed
1050 2011-09-18 22:01:13 <sipa> combine that with a tainted address imported on two live clients at the same time
1051 2011-09-18 22:01:26 <sipa> and you've got a perfect double-spend-attempt benchmark :D
1052 2011-09-18 22:01:31 <gmaxwell> hehe
1053 2011-09-18 22:02:11 Guest69476 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1054 2011-09-18 22:02:12 <gmaxwell> sort of amusing that "anti-wallet-theft-mode" is the same as "wallet-theft-mode"
1055 2011-09-18 22:04:29 <sipa> that's no stranger than murder and legal self defense both involve killing the other
1056 2011-09-18 22:08:21 realazthat has joined
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1058 2011-09-18 22:09:32 denisx has joined
1059 2011-09-18 22:12:44 TD is now known as TD[gone]
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1061 2011-09-18 22:14:29 marf_away has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1062 2011-09-18 22:16:19 <joepie91`dnd> for those who missed it
1063 2011-09-18 22:16:20 <joepie91`dnd> http://politics.slashdot.org/story/11/09/18/1742231/Pirate-Party-Wins-Seat-In-Berlin
1064 2011-09-18 22:20:20 jjjrmy has joined
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1066 2011-09-18 22:23:43 <denisx> hmm, my bitcoind is now running for weeks and has grown to 2GB
1067 2011-09-18 22:23:53 <sipa> RAM?
1068 2011-09-18 22:23:56 <denisx> yo
1069 2011-09-18 22:24:25 <denisx> PID USERNAME THR PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE C TIME WCPU COMMAND
1070 2011-09-18 22:24:25 <denisx> 64725 denis 7 51 2 2829M 2231M ucond 1 217.6H 17.72% bitcoind
1071 2011-09-18 22:24:36 <phantomcircuit> how many active connections
1072 2011-09-18 22:24:55 <denisx> 300
1073 2011-09-18 22:25:21 <gmaxwell> 300? What did you do to your software?
1074 2011-09-18 22:25:54 <luke-jr> 125 connections here
1075 2011-09-18 22:25:59 <gmaxwell> Stock software won't allow that many, so obviously you've patched it.
1076 2011-09-18 22:26:09 <luke-jr> 402 MB
1077 2011-09-18 22:26:49 <denisx> anyway, I restart it
1078 2011-09-18 22:27:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you can increase it with a configuration parameter
1079 2011-09-18 22:27:18 <phantomcircuit> -maxconnections
1080 2011-09-18 22:27:30 <sipa> indeed
1081 2011-09-18 22:27:35 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: for some reason I thought that was internally clamped to 124.
1082 2011-09-18 22:27:39 <lfm> ya 300 connections would do it
1083 2011-09-18 22:27:46 <phantomcircuit> it's 125 by default
1084 2011-09-18 22:28:09 <lfm> lots of connections like that eat up a lot of ram
1085 2011-09-18 22:28:15 <gmaxwell> (it _should_ be clamped, because if you set it to more FDs than you have you'll get a pretty awesome crash when bdb can't get a fd eventually)
1086 2011-09-18 22:28:24 <phantomcircuit> there is a soft limit of 10 MB per connection of buffer for both recv and send
1087 2011-09-18 22:28:29 spq has joined
1088 2011-09-18 22:28:30 <gmaxwell> lfm: that still sounds broken.
1089 2011-09-18 22:28:42 <phantomcircuit> you can actually end up with more than that if you have certain things that happen slowly
1090 2011-09-18 22:28:56 <lfm> the 125 can be overridden with -maxconnections=300
1091 2011-09-18 22:28:59 <gmaxwell> I was running a bit over 1000 connections on a node with not much more than a gig in use.
1092 2011-09-18 22:29:02 <phantomcircuit> specifically i think you can end up with huge buffers if you have RPC commands that are slow with lots of connections
1093 2011-09-18 22:29:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, peers which haven't yet downloaded the block chain cause significantly more memory usage than those who have
1094 2011-09-18 22:29:43 <phantomcircuit> so if you have a node that's been online a long time you see lower memory usage
1095 2011-09-18 22:30:40 <lfm> denisx: are you mining with that node too?
1096 2011-09-18 22:30:47 <denisx> lfm: no
1097 2011-09-18 22:31:10 <gmaxwell> denisx: so were you only running with -maxconnections cranked up?
1098 2011-09-18 22:31:15 nhodges has joined
1099 2011-09-18 22:31:16 <lfm> denisx: what version is it?
1100 2011-09-18 22:31:19 <denisx> 0.3.24
1101 2011-09-18 22:31:28 <denisx> gmaxwell: yes
1102 2011-09-18 22:31:39 <lfm> denisx: and you are using -maxconnections=300 ?
1103 2011-09-18 22:31:48 <denisx> yes
1104 2011-09-18 22:32:12 puhc has joined
1105 2011-09-18 22:32:41 <lfm> I cut back to -maxconnections=50 for basiclly the same reason
1106 2011-09-18 22:33:04 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I had a fair number of peers pulling the chain from that node, but perhaps I got lucky when I checked the memory usage.
1107 2011-09-18 22:33:50 <phantomcircuit> well it also depends on the connection speed of the peers
1108 2011-09-18 22:34:14 <phantomcircuit> peers with very slow internet but fast disks will result in huge buffers
1109 2011-09-18 22:34:17 puhc has quit (Client Quit)
1110 2011-09-18 22:34:29 <lfm> it could be a memory leak only triggered by certain peers too
1111 2011-09-18 22:35:23 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: iirc they don't pipeline the requests.
1112 2011-09-18 22:35:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no but slow connections mean that the full block + all transactions is buffered
1113 2011-09-18 22:36:07 huk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1115 2011-09-18 22:37:17 <lfm> do they still try to ask for 500 blocks at a gulp?
1116 2011-09-18 22:37:31 <phantomcircuit> yes
1117 2011-09-18 22:37:32 <denisx> 50 I thought
1118 2011-09-18 22:37:36 <phantomcircuit> 500
1119 2011-09-18 22:38:01 <lfm> and the newer blocks are generally a lot bigger than they used to be
1120 2011-09-18 22:38:08 <gmaxwell> They ask, though the software will give them less if it goes over the soft limit.
1121 2011-09-18 22:38:29 <phantomcircuit> actually if it goes over the limit it tries to disconnect the peer
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1123 2011-09-18 22:38:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, that was what the fix in .24 was.
1124 2011-09-18 22:39:14 <phantomcircuit> i looked into it recently
1125 2011-09-18 22:39:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Thats nice.
1126 2011-09-18 22:39:41 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/497317453422611a077f7f195eb193d3bb597a9c
1127 2011-09-18 22:40:13 <gmaxwell> Notice: if (--nLimit <= 0 || nBytes >= SendBufferSize()/2)
1128 2011-09-18 22:40:37 <lfm> it still needs to handle maximum size blocks like up to a mb each tho right?
1129 2011-09-18 22:41:03 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1130 2011-09-18 22:41:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that only solves the problem for getblocks
1131 2011-09-18 22:41:18 <gmaxwell> I think the software wouldn't work right if you cut the buffer size to less than twice the maximum block size.
1132 2011-09-18 22:41:18 <phantomcircuit> although that is the most likely cause
1133 2011-09-18 22:41:38 pickett has joined
1134 2011-09-18 22:42:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: fair enoughâ txn flooding can make for a neat transitive connection dropping attack, I suppose.
1135 2011-09-18 22:42:16 <luke-jr> I've had bitcoind crash the system because it tries to send too much at once FWIW
1136 2011-09-18 22:42:16 <phantomcircuit> getblocks however is *just* the inv packets
1137 2011-09-18 22:42:37 <lfm> the actual blocks are all less than 0.5 mb tho so far
1138 2011-09-18 22:42:39 <gmaxwell> e.g. I open two connections to you and shove 9mb of txn in on each at once and then you drop most of your peers, enh?
1139 2011-09-18 22:42:40 <phantomcircuit> getdata is actually what causes the most problems
1140 2011-09-18 22:42:48 <luke-jr> or rather, get the system to kill it off so it doesn't crash
1141 2011-09-18 22:43:22 <phantomcircuit> it pretty much instantly fills the buffer if you send a full getdata packet
1142 2011-09-18 22:44:17 <lfm> so SendBufferSize() is 2mb or more?
1143 2011-09-18 22:44:31 <phantomcircuit> it's 10mb iirc
1144 2011-09-18 22:44:39 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's 10mb by default but you can change it.
1145 2011-09-18 22:44:46 <gmaxwell> oops bad complete there.
1146 2011-09-18 22:45:02 <lfm> k
1147 2011-09-18 22:45:04 <luke-jr> change it how?
1148 2011-09-18 22:45:14 <luke-jr> no wonder it overflows
1149 2011-09-18 22:45:20 <gmaxwell> oh... hm!
1150 2011-09-18 22:45:24 <luke-jr> with 1000 connections, that's 10 GB :|
1151 2011-09-18 22:45:35 <gmaxwell> if (nPos > 1000*GetArg("-maxreceivebuffer", 10*1000)) {
1152 2011-09-18 22:45:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it's the send buffer that's the problem
1153 2011-09-18 22:45:47 <luke-jr> I think
1154 2011-09-18 22:45:49 <lfm> true a 10mb buffer per connection
1155 2011-09-18 22:46:13 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: same difference, return 1000*GetArg("-maxsendbuffer", 10*1000);
1156 2011-09-18 22:46:17 <luke-jr> XD
1157 2011-09-18 22:46:26 <luke-jr> isn't that 10 KB?
1158 2011-09-18 22:46:29 <luke-jr> less than, even
1159 2011-09-18 22:46:33 <gmaxwell> 1000*10*1000
1160 2011-09-18 22:46:37 <luke-jr> o right
1161 2011-09-18 22:46:49 <lfm> arg is in kb
1162 2011-09-18 22:46:58 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it need sto be at least large enough to hold a block.
1163 2011-09-18 22:46:58 <sipa> the concept of a send buffer limitation is quite strange actually
1164 2011-09-18 22:47:12 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: -.-
1165 2011-09-18 22:47:13 <sipa> sure it's a nice way for preventing obviously excessive sending
1166 2011-09-18 22:47:18 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what if it isn't?
1167 2011-09-18 22:47:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you won't be able to send blocks.
1168 2011-09-18 22:47:29 <sipa> but there is something fundamentally wrong if you're sending that much
1169 2011-09-18 22:47:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not really
1170 2011-09-18 22:47:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, it allows some pipelining for blockchain syncup.
1171 2011-09-18 22:47:50 <lfm> luke-jr it would choke / stall on a big block
1172 2011-09-18 22:47:58 <luke-jr> sigh
1173 2011-09-18 22:48:11 <gmaxwell> it wouldn't choke, I think, I think it just wouldn't send them.
1174 2011-09-18 22:48:15 <luke-jr> I can spare 1 GB I guess
1175 2011-09-18 22:48:33 <luke-jr> so -maxsendbuffer=1024 should be ok?
1176 2011-09-18 22:48:45 <lfm> well fortunatly we dont need to have 1000 connections per node really
1177 2011-09-18 22:48:49 <gmaxwell> asumming you don't have any blocks over 512k.
1178 2011-09-18 22:49:01 <luke-jr> lfm: I do
1179 2011-09-18 22:49:07 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it needs to be twice the block size.
1180 2011-09-18 22:49:10 <lfm> luke that would be borderline but it should be ok for now
1181 2011-09-18 22:49:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: it'll always send at least one
1182 2011-09-18 22:49:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 1024 * 1000 = 1000 KB
1183 2011-09-18 22:49:26 storrgie has joined
1184 2011-09-18 22:49:27 <lfm> max current block is less than 0.5 mb
1185 2011-09-18 22:49:33 mosi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1186 2011-09-18 22:49:45 <luke-jr> lfm: no, it's 1,000,000 bytes IIRC
1187 2011-09-18 22:50:00 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the check is /2 though. But sipa says it will always send at least one.
1188 2011-09-18 22:50:07 <gmaxwell> So it sounds like you could actually set it that small.
1189 2011-09-18 22:50:12 <sipa> not sure about that
1190 2011-09-18 22:50:13 <sipa> let me check
1191 2011-09-18 22:50:18 <lfm> luke-jr the configured max is 1mb but I am saying the largest block we have so far in the block chain is 0.5mb
1192 2011-09-18 22:50:47 slush1 has joined
1193 2011-09-18 22:51:05 <sipa> yes, it'll notice it's over half the send buffer after adding a block
1194 2011-09-18 22:51:07 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1195 2011-09-18 22:51:10 <luke-jr> I'll do 2098
1196 2011-09-18 22:51:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: good. :)
1197 2011-09-18 22:51:20 <sipa> so you need to make sure that buffer is large enough for one block + some overhead
1198 2011-09-18 22:51:35 <luke-jr> but still, I think the kernel memory is more restricted
1199 2011-09-18 22:51:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: we should probably clamp the argument then...
1200 2011-09-18 22:51:55 <lfm> gmaxwell: yup
1201 2011-09-18 22:52:02 <luke-jr> yeah, I have 509 MB total TCP send buffers
1202 2011-09-18 22:52:15 <sipa> there should just be some per-node cache of "send blocks numbers X through Y to this node, when possible"
1203 2011-09-18 22:52:18 <luke-jr> so even 0.5 GB is too big
1204 2011-09-18 22:52:33 <sipa> instead of immediately pushing them into the send buffer
1205 2011-09-18 22:52:46 <lfm> sipa: that sounds like a lot of code for not much win
1206 2011-09-18 22:53:04 <luke-jr> sipa: it needs to handle partial blocks too
1207 2011-09-18 22:53:10 <gmaxwell> might make sense to switch to using splice()...
1208 2011-09-18 22:53:21 <lfm> luke-jr I dont think it does partials
1209 2011-09-18 22:53:47 <sipa> are partial blocks implemented anywhere?
1210 2011-09-18 22:54:02 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1211 2011-09-18 22:54:04 <lfm> sipa dont think so
1212 2011-09-18 22:54:16 <gmaxwell> splice() would eliminate the double buffering, and just let the kernel stream off the disk for slow recievers.
1213 2011-09-18 22:54:23 <lfm> would neither send or receive partials
1214 2011-09-18 22:54:29 <sipa> anyway, keeping a "todo list" instead of pushing everything immediately into the send buffer could massively reduce memory requirements for nodes with many connections
1215 2011-09-18 22:54:36 <sipa> i think
1216 2011-09-18 22:54:42 Rabbit67890 has quit (Quit: Rabbit67890)
1217 2011-09-18 22:54:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: splice() would still be better, but I guess it could compliment a workqueue.
1218 2011-09-18 22:55:09 <lfm> gmaxwell: is splice in mswin, iox and linux?
1219 2011-09-18 22:55:15 <gmaxwell> Of course not! :)
1220 2011-09-18 22:55:16 <sipa> how would you use splice?
1221 2011-09-18 22:55:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: the mmap file is already in network order, no? just splice a block at a time onto the fd.
1222 2011-09-18 22:56:22 <sipa> oh, misread the manpage
1223 2011-09-18 22:56:28 <gmaxwell> lfm: but, really, whos going to run high connection count nodes on anything except linux.
1224 2011-09-18 22:56:48 <sipa> but it says that one of the fd's should refer to a pipe
1225 2011-09-18 22:56:59 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1226 2011-09-18 22:57:09 <lfm> gmaxwell: hehe good luck with that
1227 2011-09-18 22:57:50 <lfm> sipa ya then have a 1000 pipes in the kernel for 1000 connects! big savings?
1228 2011-09-18 22:57:50 huk has joined
1229 2011-09-18 22:58:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: well sendfile() is the socket form of the same thing.
1230 2011-09-18 22:58:56 <sipa> true
1231 2011-09-18 22:59:23 <sipa> not sure about the exact differences between the disk serialization and network seriazlization of blocks
1232 2011-09-18 22:59:24 <luke-jr> lfm: partials wouldn't be a protocol thing
1233 2011-09-18 22:59:37 <luke-jr> but gmaxwell's splice idea is better I think
1234 2011-09-18 23:00:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, I'm not absolutely sure of that. Though the blocks are in the same order as memory, and I know that bitcoin's network order looks like the memory on little endenian.
1235 2011-09-18 23:01:00 <sipa> byte order isn't the problem
1236 2011-09-18 23:01:06 <flying> mmm, sleep
1237 2011-09-18 23:01:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: padding too...
1238 2011-09-18 23:01:22 <sipa> i think more something like fields not present in the network encoding or stuff
1239 2011-09-18 23:01:28 <gmaxwell> ah.
1240 2011-09-18 23:01:33 <sipa> but i'm far from sure
1241 2011-09-18 23:01:55 <gmaxwell> The problem with the work queue idea is that a couple of slow client could head-of-line block the whole thing.
1242 2011-09-18 23:01:58 <luke-jr> so when you write a new client, make note to ensure on-disk format == network format
1243 2011-09-18 23:02:23 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1244 2011-09-18 23:02:27 <luke-jr> btw, any of you guys interested in joining a 0.4.x stable team?
1245 2011-09-18 23:02:54 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you should probably wait until after 0.4.x ships and there is a change to git that you don't want. :)
1246 2011-09-18 23:03:10 pickett has joined
1247 2011-09-18 23:03:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, it would branch after 0.4.0 ships
1248 2011-09-18 23:03:27 <sipa> and what would it do differently?
1249 2011-09-18 23:03:29 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: and of course merging bugfixes from mainline will be a fast-forward until there's one to skip
1250 2011-09-18 23:03:34 <luke-jr> sipa: only contain bugfixes
1251 2011-09-18 23:03:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: my eagerness is dampened by the larger number of pending features (import/export, signing, escrow txn).
1252 2011-09-18 23:04:15 <sipa> i'm more interesting in making a bitcoin-next branch
1253 2011-09-18 23:04:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: import/export is in 0.4 I think
1254 2011-09-18 23:04:23 <luke-jr> sipa: that's what the current git is :P
1255 2011-09-18 23:04:24 <sipa> no
1256 2011-09-18 23:04:30 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I'd suggest you also merge any forwarding rule changes.
1257 2011-09-18 23:04:35 <gmaxwell> It's not in .4, sadly.
1258 2011-09-18 23:04:36 <sipa> it's something in between
1259 2011-09-18 23:04:48 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: but in any case, the idea is that people with stable services won't need to rebase their patches all the time
1260 2011-09-18 23:05:05 <luke-jr> so you'd have a common stable base which you can add your features you need on top of
1261 2011-09-18 23:05:27 <sipa> i like the idea of a stable branch
1262 2011-09-18 23:05:33 <sipa> but i'm not sure it's time for that
1263 2011-09-18 23:05:41 <luke-jr> sipa: well, I'm thinking just bitcoind for 0.4
1264 2011-09-18 23:05:44 <luke-jr> ie, not wxbitcoin
1265 2011-09-18 23:05:46 <sipa> the core needs a lot of work
1266 2011-09-18 23:05:47 <gmaxwell> Well, a better way of putting it: It's a way to get miner and banks to stay up with important fixes.
1267 2011-09-18 23:05:53 Rabbit67890 has joined
1268 2011-09-18 23:05:53 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: yep
1269 2011-09-18 23:06:04 <luke-jr> and webservices and such
1270 2011-09-18 23:06:56 <gmaxwell> it would be nice if we'd gotten in the fixes that were relevant for those audiences in .4 so they'd have less to start with.
1271 2011-09-18 23:07:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: a stable base is sufficient to easily maintain branches with those features
1272 2011-09-18 23:07:36 magn3ts has joined
1273 2011-09-18 23:08:06 <Noxitu> hmm, bitcoin connects to #bitcoin-%02d, so what is #bitcoin?
1274 2011-09-18 23:08:16 <gmaxwell> Noxitu: older clients.
1275 2011-09-18 23:08:16 <sipa> legacy.
1276 2011-09-18 23:08:27 Lopuz has joined
1277 2011-09-18 23:08:39 <sipa> and i consider all of irc legacy, but still :)
1278 2011-09-18 23:08:39 * luke-jr connects to all 101 channels :D
1279 2011-09-18 23:08:51 <Noxitu> thanks :)
1280 2011-09-18 23:09:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you should reconnect periodically... if you're too stable no one will see you.
1281 2011-09-18 23:09:21 <Noxitu> i guess ones with nicks 'x5873498254' are even older?
1282 2011-09-18 23:09:22 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: once connected clients only see joins.
1283 2011-09-18 23:09:40 <sipa> 300 connections. 218MiB memory usage
1284 2011-09-18 23:09:44 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: and the initial who only returns a partial result.
1285 2011-09-18 23:09:44 <sipa> let's see for how long...
1286 2011-09-18 23:09:49 zeropointo has joined
1287 2011-09-18 23:10:00 surikator has joined
1288 2011-09-18 23:10:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I had node joining 24 + bitcoin at random, and randomly changing a channel every half hour.
1289 2011-09-18 23:10:57 <gmaxwell> otherwise the connection count dwineled over time.
1290 2011-09-18 23:12:58 <lfm> once you are running you mainly use addr.dat tho dont you?
1291 2011-09-18 23:13:43 cosurgi_tmp has quit (Quit: leaving)
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1293 2011-09-18 23:13:50 <gmaxwell> lfm: _you_, but you don't make many outgoing connections. Everyone else is whats important.
1294 2011-09-18 23:14:08 <gmaxwell> and nodes on IRC trump addr.dat for irc connected nodes
1295 2011-09-18 23:14:28 <gmaxwell> because any time you join everyone on IRC bumps the last connect time for you up to 2 hours ago.
1296 2011-09-18 23:14:50 <gmaxwell> and the outbound connection algo is a semi-randomized most recently seen.
1297 2011-09-18 23:14:53 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: good idea, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort
1298 2011-09-18 23:15:25 <lfm> too bad it doesnt figure out better who has incomming enabled
1299 2011-09-18 23:15:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well you've obviously got N irc connections, just restart one every few hours.
1300 2011-09-18 23:15:37 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: when they die, they die ;)
1301 2011-09-18 23:16:03 <luke-jr> anyhow, #bitcoin-stable is the channel organizing a stable 0.4.x branch
1302 2011-09-18 23:16:19 <sipa> why a separate channel?
1303 2011-09-18 23:16:28 <sipa> oh, for chat
1304 2011-09-18 23:16:43 <lfm> tradition, each new version now will use a different irc channel
1305 2011-09-18 23:17:22 <luke-jr> XD
1306 2011-09-18 23:17:37 <luke-jr> sipa: just to organize it better
1307 2011-09-18 23:17:45 <sipa> no, i was confused
1308 2011-09-18 23:17:46 <luke-jr> ie, so I don't forget who's involved <.<
1309 2011-09-18 23:18:11 <sipa> with the talk about the bootstrapping irc channel, i assumed you wanted bitcoin-stable to use a different irc channel
1310 2011-09-18 23:19:06 <luke-jr> ah
1311 2011-09-18 23:19:08 <luke-jr> no
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1329 2011-09-18 23:38:03 <diki> Like i've said before, i am thinking of starting a pool, i have found a VPS, i am currently coding the frontend, however the con here is that i do not wish to expose my WHOIS
1330 2011-09-18 23:38:13 <diki> so how would people react if my whois is private?
1331 2011-09-18 23:44:31 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1332 2011-09-18 23:46:14 <lfm> diki feel free
1333 2011-09-18 23:50:36 <wpl> I want to compile bicoin on Windows. However, when I try to compile Berkeley DB i get the following error: http://pastebin.com/iL1np4JL. Sorry for OT question, but maybe someone has a hint or can point me to the right channel for this.
1334 2011-09-18 23:51:12 <lfm> wpl you have the right version of berkley?
1335 2011-09-18 23:51:27 <wpl> s/bicoin/bitcoin/
1336 2011-09-18 23:51:59 <wpl> I have db-4.8.30.NC as stated in doc/build-msw.txt
1337 2011-09-18 23:52:27 <lfm> k
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1341 2011-09-18 23:56:36 <wpl> Is the NC version mandatory or can I also use the version with AES encryption?
1342 2011-09-18 23:56:40 <luke-jr> diki: anyone who knows you will know not to risk using it
1343 2011-09-18 23:57:21 baz has joined
1344 2011-09-18 23:57:24 <luke-jr> wpl: I think you're the only one who wants to compile on Windows
1345 2011-09-18 23:57:38 <lfm> aes doesnt currently matter for bitcoin, it doent use it
1346 2011-09-18 23:57:45 <luke-jr> wpl: I'm pretty sure AES is required now
1347 2011-09-18 23:57:55 <luke-jr> lfm: wallet encryption is AES
1348 2011-09-18 23:58:12 <lfm> oh, ya ok, bleh
1349 2011-09-18 23:58:28 <wpl> luke-jr: Thanks. Compiling open source projects on Windows is always such a pain.
1350 2011-09-18 23:58:51 <lfm> wpl prolly easier to set up linux eh?
1351 2011-09-18 23:59:23 <luke-jr> wpl: compiling on Windows is, yes