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  25 2011-09-20 00:50:01 <FellowTraveler> hi all.
  26 2011-09-20 00:53:51 <imsaguy2> hiya
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  55 2011-09-20 02:14:25 <freewil> ive got a question about using listtransactions and the from param
  56 2011-09-20 02:14:37 egecko has joined
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  58 2011-09-20 02:15:30 <freewil> ...from is basically an offset of the number of transactions to skip... so if a transaction only has 1 confirmation or even 0, is there potential for this transaction to disappear in a future call to listtransactions?
  59 2011-09-20 02:16:19 <freewil> ... and in that case wouldn't you need to decrement from to avoid missing a transaction?
  60 2011-09-20 02:17:09 nhodges has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  61 2011-09-20 02:17:50 <forrestv> freewil, no, they appear as "orphaned" then
  62 2011-09-20 02:17:58 HaltingState has joined
  63 2011-09-20 02:18:47 <freewil> forrestv, the category would change from "receive" to "orphaned" ?
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  66 2011-09-20 02:20:16 <forrestv> freewil, yes, iirc
  67 2011-09-20 02:21:17 <freewil> so once a bitcoin client sees a transaction, it's not ever deleted, but simply orphaned?
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  69 2011-09-20 02:21:38 <luke-jr> depends on the client
  70 2011-09-20 02:21:48 <freewil> well bitcoind
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  97 2011-09-20 02:54:52 <nhodges> lol
  98 2011-09-20 02:54:52 <nhodges> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44681.0
  99 2011-09-20 02:54:55 <nhodges> windows developers
 100 2011-09-20 02:54:55 <nhodges> :D
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 102 2011-09-20 02:56:58 <gmaxwell> nhodges: it amazing that their keyboards don't all stop working from the accumuliated drool before they can get a post out.
 103 2011-09-20 02:57:40 <gmaxwell> "It's because I take it as a personal offense when people try to invade my time." < Ironic coming from the jackass who is making demands about other people package the source code to the software they've written
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 134 2011-09-20 03:58:08 <midnightslipper> kittens, kittens, kittens.
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 154 2011-09-20 04:37:01 <nhodges> what kind of hash is this
 155 2011-09-20 04:37:02 <nhodges> Vm9sdW1lMQ==
 156 2011-09-20 04:37:03 <nhodges> it represents Volume1
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 158 2011-09-20 04:41:24 <forrestv> nhodges, not a hash; base64
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 172 2011-09-20 05:12:42 <shadders> <shadders> two bitcoinds chattering to each other..
 173 2011-09-20 05:12:43 <shadders> <shadders> http://pastebin.com/wgdz0tDc
 174 2011-09-20 05:12:43 <shadders> <shadders> proxy in between logging...
 175 2011-09-20 05:12:43 <shadders> <shadders> seems to be a lot of useless chatter there...
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 178 2011-09-20 05:27:27 <theymos> New page on the wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contingency_plans
 179 2011-09-20 05:27:57 <copumpkin> alert keys?
 180 2011-09-20 05:28:35 <neofutur> strange, Contingencyplan is also one of the aliases of foodstamp
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 186 2011-09-20 05:35:53 <osmosis> neofutur, probably just because he has some kind of military background.
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 193 2011-09-20 05:45:26 <nhodges> @theymos does alert mean embedding ascii into the blockchain a la len sassamman?
 194 2011-09-20 05:45:28 <nhodges> sassaman
 195 2011-09-20 05:45:33 <nhodges> on contingency plan
 196 2011-09-20 05:45:50 <theymos> No. It's a special message relayed between peers.
 197 2011-09-20 05:47:14 <nhodges> how would an end user of bitcoin alert you in the event of such an emergency
 198 2011-09-20 05:48:10 <theymos> Sending me an IM on AIM, XMPP, etc. would be the fastest way.
 199 2011-09-20 05:48:20 <theymos> You can also email me.
 200 2011-09-20 05:49:13 <Diablo-D3> heh its a theymos
 201 2011-09-20 05:49:46 gfinn has joined
 202 2011-09-20 05:51:22 <nhodges> for sure didn't realize it was an alert in a general sense, was thinking there was some proper avenue to send a bat signal, so to speak
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 207 2011-09-20 05:53:08 <theymos> You should probably contact Gavin first, though. He's probably able to get an alert sent faster than me. The alert broadcaster code probably needs to be modified before it will run on modern versions, and I haven't done this yet.
 208 2011-09-20 05:53:27 <Diablo-D3> WHAT ALERT
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 210 2011-09-20 05:53:57 <theymos> Bitcoin network alerts.
 211 2011-09-20 05:54:03 <Diablo-D3> ssince when
 212 2011-09-20 05:54:06 <nhodges> so there is a bat signal! lol
 213 2011-09-20 05:54:46 <theymos> Bitcoin's had an alert system since around 0.3.12, I believe.
 214 2011-09-20 05:55:01 <nhodges> oh okay, that's what i was kind of getting at, didn't know it was implemented
 215 2011-09-20 05:55:03 <nhodges> awesome
 216 2011-09-20 05:55:50 <theymos> The broadcaster code was written at around the same time, and it seems to rely on a GUI being present, so it probably needs to be modified before it will actually compile.
 217 2011-09-20 05:57:56 <JFK911> how do i use this
 218 2011-09-20 05:58:33 <JFK911> this should have been known previously
 219 2011-09-20 05:58:48 <JFK911> cosbycoin panic would have been more severe if bitcoin clients were popping these windows up also
 220 2011-09-20 06:01:36 <Blitzboom> hahahahaha
 221 2011-09-20 06:01:43 <Blitzboom> cosby issues a warning
 222 2011-09-20 06:05:55 <JFK911> that would be seriosuly freaky eh
 223 2011-09-20 06:07:57 <cronopio> yeah, seriously if the attacker want some profit, he should change all the BTC address in signatures for his own direcction
 224 2011-09-20 06:08:49 <JFK911> did he do that?
 225 2011-09-20 06:10:00 <Diablo-D3> COSBYCOIN
 226 2011-09-20 06:10:02 <Diablo-D3> I still cant buy those :<
 227 2011-09-20 06:10:09 <cronopio> JFK911: i think not, well i hope
 228 2011-09-20 06:14:02 danbri has joined
 229 2011-09-20 06:14:52 <JFK911> oh well his javascript just changed pages after they were displayed
 230 2011-09-20 06:16:44 <cronopio> JFK911: yeah, he do that for show that Cosby message :P
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 240 2011-09-20 06:47:02 <Disposition> huh
 241 2011-09-20 06:47:10 <Disposition> I make some food, btc price shoots up
 242 2011-09-20 06:47:31 <Disposition> I should cook more :P
 243 2011-09-20 06:48:30 Burgundy has joined
 244 2011-09-20 06:49:44 <neofutur> Disposition: could be true . . . I also cooked today . . . rare thing
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 256 2011-09-20 07:33:44 <theymos> New wiki article about alerts: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
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 271 2011-09-20 07:52:02 <nhodges> haha awesome theymos :D thanks
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 292 2011-09-20 08:50:10 <midnightslipper> loltrolls
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 304 2011-09-20 09:54:34 <neofutur> its just me or blockexplorer is lagging ?
 305 2011-09-20 09:57:02 <phantomcircuit> it's slow
 306 2011-09-20 09:58:12 Detritus has joined
 307 2011-09-20 10:03:10 <diki> there was a block explorer which had info on how many unique addresses there were in the block chain
 308 2011-09-20 10:03:14 <diki> anyone remember it?
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 310 2011-09-20 10:05:38 <diki> i think the design of the site was blue-ish
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 320 2011-09-20 10:57:10 <midnightslipper> aenima...
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 337 2011-09-20 11:29:31 <d33tah> i tried to ask similar questions yesterday but seems like I was too sleepy...
 338 2011-09-20 11:29:43 <d33tah> how are bitcoin outputs created?
 339 2011-09-20 11:29:50 larsivi has joined
 340 2011-09-20 11:30:31 <d33tah> let's say we generate 50BTC and broadcast the block with all output sent to a user. what happens, from the mathematical point of view?
 341 2011-09-20 11:32:01 _Burgundy has joined
 342 2011-09-20 11:34:11 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 343 2011-09-20 11:36:57 <sipa> nothing
 344 2011-09-20 11:37:12 <sipa> after that, the output exists within the chain the block is in
 345 2011-09-20 11:37:34 <d33tah> i mean, the value that the generator posesses is the signed header, right?
 346 2011-09-20 11:37:35 <sipa> and it can be redeemed by an input of a later transaction within the same chain
 347 2011-09-20 11:37:38 <sipa> no
 348 2011-09-20 11:37:50 <sipa> the generator has a private key
 349 2011-09-20 11:37:56 <sipa> and its corresponding public key
 350 2011-09-20 11:38:19 <d33tah> oh, just got an idea
 351 2011-09-20 11:38:24 <sipa> and the created output says "you need a signature with a public key X to spend me"
 352 2011-09-20 11:38:28 <d33tah> is it possible to generate 50BTC and send it into the void?
 353 2011-09-20 11:38:32 <d33tah> like, no outputs?
 354 2011-09-20 11:38:43 <sipa> no, because then you didn't create anything
 355 2011-09-20 11:38:50 <d33tah> i'd create an empty block
 356 2011-09-20 11:38:54 <d33tah> not possible?
 357 2011-09-20 11:39:05 <sipa> each transaction needs at least one ouput
 358 2011-09-20 11:39:09 <d33tah> ok
 359 2011-09-20 11:39:13 <sipa> and each block has at least a generation transaction
 360 2011-09-20 11:39:21 <d33tah> so, as you said
 361 2011-09-20 11:39:24 <d33tah> 13:28 < sipa> and the created output says "you need a signature with a public key X to spend me"
 362 2011-09-20 11:39:30 <d33tah> how is it expressed?
 363 2011-09-20 11:39:30 <sipa> yes
 364 2011-09-20 11:39:34 <sipa> in a script
 365 2011-09-20 11:40:06 <d33tah> in bitcoin, at the moment all scripts look all the same, except for the constants they provide, right?
 366 2011-09-20 11:40:15 <sipa> the OP_CHECKSIG operation takes two inputs: a public key, and a signature
 367 2011-09-20 11:40:26 <sipa> so the output is "<pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG"
 368 2011-09-20 11:40:35 <sipa> it assumes the signature is already on the stack
 369 2011-09-20 11:40:47 <d33tah> unencrypted public key of the address that previously had the output?
 370 2011-09-20 11:40:59 <sipa> no the pubkey of the address it is sent to
 371 2011-09-20 11:41:05 <d33tah> okay
 372 2011-09-20 11:41:09 <sipa> we're talking about outputs here
 373 2011-09-20 11:41:19 <sipa> outputs define the conditions under which you can spend something
 374 2011-09-20 11:41:22 <d33tah> i mean, i'd like to understand how the money is generated
 375 2011-09-20 11:41:33 <sipa> inputs provide the proof for those conditions
 376 2011-09-20 11:42:09 <d33tah> okay
 377 2011-09-20 11:42:40 <sipa> money is created by collectively considering the longest blockchain authorative
 378 2011-09-20 11:43:03 <sipa> under the rules defined by the bitcoin protocol
 379 2011-09-20 11:43:06 <d33tah> ok, we create a block by successfully hashing it header
 380 2011-09-20 11:43:19 <d33tah> the block points to its previous one, thus creating the longest blockchain
 381 2011-09-20 11:43:23 <sipa> by hashing its header, and ending up with a number below the target
 382 2011-09-20 11:43:30 <d33tah> right
 383 2011-09-20 11:43:38 <d33tah> now, we are entitled to create outputs, right?
 384 2011-09-20 11:43:38 <sipa> that is a 'proof of work'
 385 2011-09-20 11:43:48 <sipa> no, you already created those
 386 2011-09-20 11:44:05 <sipa> as the generation transaction is part of the block you just generated
 387 2011-09-20 11:44:09 <sipa> and thus part of what you hashed
 388 2011-09-20 11:44:15 <d33tah> ok
 389 2011-09-20 11:44:25 <sipa> it is just "a valid block is allowed to contain one generation of up to 50 BTC"
 390 2011-09-20 11:44:42 <sipa> and a generation is basically a transaction without outputs up to 50 BTC, but no inputs
 391 2011-09-20 11:44:51 <d33tah> ok
 392 2011-09-20 11:44:51 <sipa> eh with
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 394 2011-09-20 11:45:10 brooss__ has joined
 395 2011-09-20 11:45:40 <d33tah> outputs up to 50BTC. let's say I want all the 50BTC to be sent to my address. i generate a txout. it contains its value and script, right?
 396 2011-09-20 11:46:01 <sipa> yes, a txout is nothing more than an amount and a verification script
 397 2011-09-20 11:46:30 <d33tah> and script contains the generator's public key and the output's signature?
 398 2011-09-20 11:46:50 <sipa> the script is just "<pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG"
 399 2011-09-20 11:47:14 <d33tah> oh, not generator's but receiver's i meant*
 400 2011-09-20 11:47:24 <d33tah> so just the public key of the receiver and OP_CHECKSIG?
 401 2011-09-20 11:47:24 <sipa> what receivers?
 402 2011-09-20 11:47:29 <d33tah> of the output.
 403 2011-09-20 11:47:30 <sipa> what are you talking about exactly?
 404 2011-09-20 11:47:48 <sipa> the generation transaction, or something else?
 405 2011-09-20 11:48:02 <d33tah> we generate 50BTC. we create an output to send it to somebody, then in its value we say it's 50BTC, and in it's script we just put the public key of the receiver and OP_CHECKSIG?
 406 2011-09-20 11:48:38 <sipa> exactly
 407 2011-09-20 11:48:53 <d33tah> okay
 408 2011-09-20 11:49:01 <sipa> now, some time later
 409 2011-09-20 11:49:06 <d33tah> hm?
 410 2011-09-20 11:49:10 <sipa> you want to spend that output
 411 2011-09-20 11:49:21 <sipa> eg, i want to send 20 BTC to you, and i have your address
 412 2011-09-20 11:49:26 <sipa> ok?
 413 2011-09-20 11:49:44 <d33tah> and you previously had this 50BTC?
 414 2011-09-20 11:49:51 <sipa> yes
 415 2011-09-20 11:49:54 <sipa> we're going to use that 50 BTC
 416 2011-09-20 11:50:14 <sipa> assume the generation tx that gave us 50 BTC, is in a transaction whose hash is T
 417 2011-09-20 11:50:14 <d33tah> you use it as an input
 418 2011-09-20 11:50:29 <sipa> then you create a transaction T2
 419 2011-09-20 11:50:44 <sipa> with as input T:0 (meaning output number #0 of transaction with hash T)
 420 2011-09-20 11:50:46 _Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 421 2011-09-20 11:50:51 <sipa> and two outputs
 422 2011-09-20 11:51:25 <d33tah> 20 BTC to me, 30BTC change to you
 423 2011-09-20 11:51:50 <sipa> the first output will give you 20 BTC, so it has value 20, and script "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
 424 2011-09-20 11:52:04 <d33tah> pubKeyHash being?
 425 2011-09-20 11:52:09 <sipa> the address
 426 2011-09-20 11:52:22 <d33tah> so, the 1blahblahblah?
 427 2011-09-20 11:52:23 <sipa> remember, an address is just a base58 encoded hash of a public key
 428 2011-09-20 11:52:25 <sipa> so you have that
 429 2011-09-20 11:52:37 <sipa> but i skipped something
 430 2011-09-20 11:52:44 <sipa> the input obviously also contains a script
 431 2011-09-20 11:52:55 <d33tah> so the script is always the same and it just says that the money goes to a specific address?
 432 2011-09-20 11:52:56 <sipa> the scriptSig (as opposed to outputs which have a scriptPubKey)
 433 2011-09-20 11:53:02 <sipa> yes
 434 2011-09-20 11:53:28 <sipa> the input's script simply contains <signature> if the corresponding pubKeyScript is "<pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG"
 435 2011-09-20 11:53:46 <sipa> because that will make "<signature> <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG" evaluate to true
 436 2011-09-20 11:53:57 <d33tah> hm.
 437 2011-09-20 11:54:12 <d33tah> pubkey = the key of the guy who received 50BTC
 438 2011-09-20 11:54:19 <sipa> yes
 439 2011-09-20 11:54:24 <d33tah> and the signature at this case?
 440 2011-09-20 11:54:28 <d33tah> hold on, got a call
 441 2011-09-20 11:54:43 <sipa> and <signature> is a signature of the transaction itself, using that same guy's private key
 442 2011-09-20 11:55:12 <d33tah> and it's the first time we use somebody's private key.
 443 2011-09-20 11:55:13 <sipa> therefore it is a proof that the owner of the key whose pubkeyhash is X, wanted to do that spend
 444 2011-09-20 11:55:25 <sipa> yes, you use it to spend outputs
 445 2011-09-20 11:55:33 <d33tah> by signing inputs
 446 2011-09-20 11:55:38 <sipa> exactly
 447 2011-09-20 11:57:49 <d33tah> afk sec
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 449 2011-09-20 12:00:54 <d33tah> what algorithm is used to sign inputs?
 450 2011-09-20 12:01:19 <d33tah> i mean, create the <signature> part
 451 2011-09-20 12:01:23 <sipa> ECDSA
 452 2011-09-20 12:01:51 <d33tah> does it only have one variant?
 453 2011-09-20 12:02:11 <d33tah> i mean, i can't find it in the openssl manpage
 454 2011-09-20 12:02:41 storrgie has joined
 455 2011-09-20 12:02:51 <sipa> the openssl function is ECDSA_sign
 456 2011-09-20 12:03:17 <d33tah> can I use openssl binary to test the encryption?
 457 2011-09-20 12:03:28 <sipa> yes
 458 2011-09-20 12:03:35 <d33tah> as I understand, all I need to sign a message is a message itself and my privkey, right?
 459 2011-09-20 12:04:28 <sipa> yes
 460 2011-09-20 12:04:49 <sipa> though getting either out of bitcoin is hard
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 467 2011-09-20 12:14:50 <d33tah> ok sipa
 468 2011-09-20 12:15:08 <d33tah> so, the whole Bitcoin security lies in longest blockchain and signing inputs, right?
 469 2011-09-20 12:15:33 <edcba> basically yes
 470 2011-09-20 12:15:52 <d33tah> and having that data plus what is written on the wiki...
 471 2011-09-20 12:16:32 <d33tah> to send a simple transaction, i'd need to know a) my privkey b) the amount c) the input's txid d) the destination public key?
 472 2011-09-20 12:17:17 <d33tah> did I forget about anythin?
 473 2011-09-20 12:17:24 <d33tah> anything*
 474 2011-09-20 12:18:30 <sipa> you don't need d if you do a send-to-address
 475 2011-09-20 12:18:39 <sipa> you need the hash of the public key instead
 476 2011-09-20 12:18:58 <d33tah> so, the address.
 477 2011-09-20 12:20:19 <sipa> you'll also need the prevout's #out
 478 2011-09-20 12:20:27 <sipa> as in, a transaction can have multiple outputs
 479 2011-09-20 12:20:36 <sipa> you need to know which number you want to spend
 480 2011-09-20 12:20:55 <d33tah> is it an information that is signed?
 481 2011-09-20 12:21:52 <d33tah> part of the signed input?
 482 2011-09-20 12:21:56 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 483 2011-09-20 12:22:57 <sipa> the entire transaction is signed
 484 2011-09-20 12:23:04 <sipa> excluding the signatures themselves
 485 2011-09-20 12:23:20 <d33tah> so, there is another algorithm used, aside from ECDSA?
 486 2011-09-20 12:23:21 datagutt has joined
 487 2011-09-20 12:23:38 <d33tah> (that's where i'm starting to feel lost)
 488 2011-09-20 12:24:13 <sipa> ?
 489 2011-09-20 12:24:20 <GMP> ECDSA used for signing
 490 2011-09-20 12:24:31 <sipa> the hashing of transaction and blocks is done using double SHA256
 491 2011-09-20 12:24:46 wardearia has joined
 492 2011-09-20 12:24:47 <sipa> the hashing of pubkeys to address is done using SHA256+RIPEMD160
 493 2011-09-20 12:24:52 <sipa> and signatures are made using ECDSA
 494 2011-09-20 12:25:01 <d33tah> so, the transaction is just hashed, not signed?
 495 2011-09-20 12:25:11 <d33tah> only the inputs are hashed?
 496 2011-09-20 12:25:27 <sipa> transaction inputs contain a signature of the transaction they are contained within
 497 2011-09-20 12:26:26 <d33tah> alright, so far I follow you
 498 2011-09-20 12:27:03 <d33tah> what data exactly are signed? just the hash?
 499 2011-09-20 12:27:38 <sipa> you take the entire transaction
 500 2011-09-20 12:27:48 <sipa> you remove the signatures from it (because you don't know those)
 501 2011-09-20 12:27:56 <sipa> you take the hash of the result
 502 2011-09-20 12:28:04 <Diablo-D3> s/remove from/replace with 0
 503 2011-09-20 12:28:14 <sipa> indeed
 504 2011-09-20 12:28:16 <d33tah> signatures only, or whole the script?
 505 2011-09-20 12:28:23 <sipa> signatures only, iirc
 506 2011-09-20 12:28:30 <d33tah> okay
 507 2011-09-20 12:28:36 <sipa> you give that hash, together with the private key to ECDSA_sign
 508 2011-09-20 12:28:37 pickett_ has joined
 509 2011-09-20 12:28:54 <sipa> an additional flag byte is added to the signature
 510 2011-09-20 12:29:02 <sipa> and that is put in the transaction input script
 511 2011-09-20 12:29:04 <Diablo-D3> d33tah: every single thing that self hashes (headers on internet traffic for example), you replace the hash field with 0 then hash
 512 2011-09-20 12:29:16 <Diablo-D3> and then fix the field with the correctly computated hash
 513 2011-09-20 12:29:27 <d33tah> okay
 514 2011-09-20 12:29:57 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is designed somewhat sanely according to varying standards of sane
 515 2011-09-20 12:30:00 <d33tah> it sounds extremely complicated, but now that I'm concentrated, it seems understandable
 516 2011-09-20 12:30:13 <Diablo-D3> its not complicated
 517 2011-09-20 12:30:14 <Diablo-D3> most of the encryption use is blackboxed correctly
 518 2011-09-20 12:30:27 <d33tah> could you do it with paper and pencil? :P
 519 2011-09-20 12:30:32 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 520 2011-09-20 12:30:36 <Diablo-D3> yes.
 521 2011-09-20 12:30:55 <sipa> sha256 on paper would be horrible
 522 2011-09-20 12:31:00 <sipa> and EC as well
 523 2011-09-20 12:31:02 <sipa> but possible
 524 2011-09-20 12:31:04 <Diablo-D3> EC yes
 525 2011-09-20 12:31:11 <Diablo-D3> sha256 isnt so hard
 526 2011-09-20 12:31:21 <Diablo-D3> just use an existing unrolled version
 527 2011-09-20 12:31:25 <d33tah> the reason i'm asking you guys
 528 2011-09-20 12:31:38 <d33tah> is i'm wondering what would I need to know to add bitcoin a bit of security
 529 2011-09-20 12:31:44 <d33tah> with an external hashing chip
 530 2011-09-20 12:31:55 <d33tah> i'm trying to strip the concept as much as possible
 531 2011-09-20 12:31:56 <Diablo-D3> d33tah: you'd need to know none of it
 532 2011-09-20 12:32:06 <d33tah> what I learnt atm is this:
 533 2011-09-20 12:32:11 <Diablo-D3> in addition, dedicated encryption accelerators do nothing for the normal bitcoin process.
 534 2011-09-20 12:32:32 <d33tah> 1) hack the bitcoin client to never store the private key on hdd, instead, save it on the external device, where it would be encrypted
 535 2011-09-20 12:32:54 <sipa> why not just stored it encrypted on disk?
 536 2011-09-20 12:33:14 <sipa> if you want the security of a trusted external device, you should make sure the key never leaves that device
 537 2011-09-20 12:33:21 <d33tah> 2) when there is a transaction, the client asks the user to enter the password, then asks the device to sign the inputs with keys matching a specific address
 538 2011-09-20 12:33:50 <sipa> which is what bitcoin 0.4 will, only with a wallet on disk
 539 2011-09-20 12:33:52 <sipa> *do
 540 2011-09-20 12:33:53 <d33tah> 3) the device waits for physical confirmation (let's say a button pressed on it) to make sure it's not some trojan activity
 541 2011-09-20 12:34:18 <d33tah> then it retrieves the encrypted private key, signs the message it gets from the client and returns it signed
 542 2011-09-20 12:34:59 <d33tah> if we did all on the PC, any keylogged could get the password and sign transactions on its own
 543 2011-09-20 12:35:21 <sipa> yes, you're basically describing a bitcoin smartcard
 544 2011-09-20 12:35:33 <d33tah> afaik, there is none on the market yet
 545 2011-09-20 12:35:55 <sipa> uhu
 546 2011-09-20 12:36:01 <d33tah> so
 547 2011-09-20 12:36:11 <d33tah> i'd need to implement ECDSA on the smartcard
 548 2011-09-20 12:36:14 <d33tah> and key storing, right?
 549 2011-09-20 12:37:07 <sipa> yes
 550 2011-09-20 12:37:23 <d33tah> which means i need to understand ECDSA
 551 2011-09-20 12:37:30 <d33tah> assume I have 512 bytes EEPROM
 552 2011-09-20 12:37:41 <d33tah> will that do, provided I only use a single address and don't encrypt it yet?
 553 2011-09-20 12:38:14 <sipa> 512 bytes to store the ecdsa algorithm?
 554 2011-09-20 12:38:18 <sipa> or to store the key?
 555 2011-09-20 12:38:19 <d33tah> nah
 556 2011-09-20 12:38:23 <sipa> the key is 32 bytes
 557 2011-09-20 12:38:27 <d33tah> the algorithm should be in the flash
 558 2011-09-20 12:38:32 <d33tah> key and address, i believe
 559 2011-09-20 12:38:38 <d33tah> if it's all i need
 560 2011-09-20 12:38:40 <sipa> you can calculate the address from the key
 561 2011-09-20 12:38:54 <d33tah> do I even need it?
 562 2011-09-20 12:38:58 <sipa> no
 563 2011-09-20 12:39:00 <d33tah> okay
 564 2011-09-20 12:39:04 <d33tah> so, 32 bytes
 565 2011-09-20 12:39:10 <d33tah> makes it theoretically possible to store about 15 keys
 566 2011-09-20 12:39:16 <sipa> well, you need to be able to ask your device what its address is, obviously
 567 2011-09-20 12:39:48 <d33tah> the device just encrypts
 568 2011-09-20 12:39:50 <d33tah> oh
 569 2011-09-20 12:39:50 <d33tah> i get it
 570 2011-09-20 12:39:50 <d33tah> right
 571 2011-09-20 12:39:51 <sipa> no, it signs
 572 2011-09-20 12:39:51 <sipa> it doesn't encrypt
 573 2011-09-20 12:40:17 <d33tah> anyway
 574 2011-09-20 12:40:21 <d33tah> i think i wouldn't need to
 575 2011-09-20 12:40:25 <GMP> smartcard if headless device, how did sc know if its you who wants to sign something? what if cardreader device is compromised? smartcard will just sing transaction for the hacker
 576 2011-09-20 12:40:43 <d33tah> if i stored the public key in the wallet.dat, i wouldn't need
 577 2011-09-20 12:40:45 <d33tah> and GMP
 578 2011-09-20 12:40:50 <d33tah> i think i'd make it this way:
 579 2011-09-20 12:41:03 <d33tah> scenario 1: a user creates a transaction
 580 2011-09-20 12:41:20 <sipa> imho smartphones are the way to go, not smartcards
 581 2011-09-20 12:41:56 <d33tah> now, the transaction is sent, the password asked for, we enter it and the device encrypts ONLY AFTER the button is pressed
 582 2011-09-20 12:42:10 <sipa> the device does not do encryptioj
 583 2011-09-20 12:42:11 <sipa> n
 584 2011-09-20 12:42:19 <d33tah> sorry, signing
 585 2011-09-20 12:42:27 <d33tah> i guess it has to be annoying for you :p
 586 2011-09-20 12:42:42 <d33tah> is there such a project for smartphones?
 587 2011-09-20 12:43:03 <sipa> not sure
 588 2011-09-20 12:43:10 <d33tah> anyway
 589 2011-09-20 12:43:20 <d33tah> how do you imagine transferring the signature from smartphone to the PC?
 590 2011-09-20 12:44:11 <sipa> not
 591 2011-09-20 12:44:18 <d33tah> you mean, no idea?
 592 2011-09-20 12:44:18 <sipa> there is no PC involved
 593 2011-09-20 12:44:28 <d33tah> then it can be infected aswell
 594 2011-09-20 12:44:52 <d33tah> it needs two devices to be relatively safe
 595 2011-09-20 12:45:54 <d33tah> unless i got something wrong
 596 2011-09-20 12:47:27 <someone42> d33tah: i've got some (pure) C code you might be interested in, ok to PM?
 597 2011-09-20 12:47:38 <d33tah> someone42: sure
 598 2011-09-20 12:48:35 <GMP> d33tah: i agree, some device + (not too smart) smartphone, and safe open communication between them
 599 2011-09-20 12:49:01 <d33tah> meaning what? bluetooth?
 600 2011-09-20 12:49:11 <d33tah> QRcodes? irda? usb? wifi?
 601 2011-09-20 12:49:13 <sipa> NFC, wifi, QR code scanning, ...
 602 2011-09-20 12:49:57 <GMP> 2-way QR is safest :)
 603 2011-09-20 12:50:08 b4epoche_ has joined
 604 2011-09-20 12:51:21 <d33tah> sipa: first time i hear of NFC
 605 2011-09-20 12:52:37 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 606 2011-09-20 12:53:27 <d33tah> btw
 607 2011-09-20 12:53:33 <d33tah> mind checking out bitcoinbounties.org
 608 2011-09-20 12:53:34 <d33tah> ?
 609 2011-09-20 12:53:48 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 610 2011-09-20 12:53:55 <d33tah> i once visited #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev (can't remember) and found out you folks would like such service to exist
 611 2011-09-20 12:54:53 <d33tah> i haven't heard a single comment of it yet
 612 2011-09-20 12:55:25 <sipa> i'm not sure many people know of its existance
 613 2011-09-20 12:56:43 <d33tah> i posted it on bitcointalk.org. got any further ideas?
 614 2011-09-20 12:59:59 da2ce7 has joined
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 616 2011-09-20 13:02:18 <GMP> what is the main reason that not just transaction is signed, but subscript of output of previous transaction as well? make verifing harder
 617 2011-09-20 13:03:21 imsaguy2 has joined
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 619 2011-09-20 13:07:51 mklarmann has joined
 620 2011-09-20 13:08:06 <mklarmann> hi :-) hi has anyone looked already at the implementation of the google wallet, if it is designed to potentially include bitcoins someday?
 621 2011-09-20 13:09:11 <midnightslipper> puscifer, vaginas, etc.
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 623 2011-09-20 13:12:26 <MrSam> yes
 624 2011-09-20 13:12:32 <MrSam> the whole world rotates around bitcoins
 625 2011-09-20 13:12:40 <MrSam> i heard they are using cern as a miner
 626 2011-09-20 13:13:02 <sipa> i assume it's designed to support mutliple currencies
 627 2011-09-20 13:13:14 <MrSam> i'm not so sure
 628 2011-09-20 13:13:23 <MrSam> i heard that they would introduce own currency
 629 2011-09-20 13:13:34 <MrSam> but hidden, in a way like paypal does
 630 2011-09-20 13:13:44 <MrSam> so exchange rate on every transaction
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 650 2011-09-20 13:38:33 <mklarmann> thank you for your opinions on this
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 654 2011-09-20 13:42:13 <jix> GMP: I don't know the details but I guess when address A transfers 1btc to address B... the owner of address B could just issue that transaction a 2nd time to steal 1btc from A
 655 2011-09-20 13:44:34 <sipa> jix: no
 656 2011-09-20 13:44:58 <sipa> after the transaction is included, its input coins do not exist anymore
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 658 2011-09-20 13:51:37 <jix> sipa: so a transaction clears all coins of the source address?
 659 2011-09-20 13:52:19 <sipa> no
 660 2011-09-20 13:52:31 <sipa> there doesn't exist something like "coins of an address"
 661 2011-09-20 13:52:44 <sipa> there are "coins which an address' key gives access to"
 662 2011-09-20 13:52:59 <sipa> but when spending coins, the transaction refers to the actual coins
 663 2011-09-20 13:55:55 <jix> the scenario I had in mind was this: A: 10btc, B: 0btc; transactino of 1 btc from A -> B; A: 9btc, B: 1btc; now B just reissues the transaction; A 8btc; B: 2btc
 664 2011-09-20 13:55:56 <jix> from what I understand it is possible to move only parts of the coins of an address... so unless a transaction signature also signs the preceding transaction from the source address it would be possible to just copy transactions
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 668 2011-09-20 13:56:41 <sipa> jix: forget what you know
 669 2011-09-20 13:56:53 <sipa> there is nothing like moving coins from one address to another
 670 2011-09-20 13:57:04 <sipa> there are just coins
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 672 2011-09-20 13:57:15 <MrSam> drugs !
 673 2011-09-20 13:57:31 <sipa> and a transaction 1) consumes some specific coins 2) creates new coins of sizes whose sum doesn't exceed the consumed ones
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 677 2011-09-20 14:02:38 <imsaguy2> correction
 678 2011-09-20 14:03:00 <imsaguy2> 2) creates new coins of sizes whose sum is equal to the consumed ones.
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 682 2011-09-20 14:03:04 <sipa> no
 683 2011-09-20 14:03:11 <jix> imsaguy2: transaction fees?
 684 2011-09-20 14:03:13 <sipa> the difference goes to fees
 685 2011-09-20 14:03:17 <imsaguy2> yes, anything remaining is a transaction fee, but its still a coin
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 687 2011-09-20 14:03:21 <sipa> wrong
 688 2011-09-20 14:03:28 <jix> but it's not created by the transaction
 689 2011-09-20 14:03:32 <sipa> fees do not become a coin themselves
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 691 2011-09-20 14:03:47 <jix> they just increase the amount that can be mined
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 693 2011-09-20 14:03:52 <jix> don't they?
 694 2011-09-20 14:03:53 <sipa> they are collected together in the block that mines them, and simple allows an increased generation
 695 2011-09-20 14:04:26 <sipa> you can check the source code: the sum of the outputs of a tx <= the sum of the inputs of a tx
 696 2011-09-20 14:04:47 <sipa> both can be zero, by the way
 697 2011-09-20 14:04:58 <jix> sipa: I think I get it... but I'm not sure how this is handled: say I mined 50btc and then want to transfer 10btc of them... the transaction would then take all 50 of them forward 10btc to someone else and 40 back to me?
 698 2011-09-20 14:05:08 <sipa> jix: exactly
 699 2011-09-20 14:05:36 <jix> yeah that makes sense :) thanks
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 707 2011-09-20 14:29:56 <helo> is that done to reduce the number of important addresses?
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 712 2011-09-20 14:30:30 <sipa> no, that is done so a full node only needs to keep track of one thing: which txouts are spent?
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 714 2011-09-20 14:30:38 <sipa> instead of keeping full balances
 715 2011-09-20 14:31:13 <sipa> plus, it allows more interesting things like txouts that are spendable by more than one address, or combinations thereof
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 717 2011-09-20 14:33:31 <helo> ic
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 744 2011-09-20 15:30:10 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r0ad38146c223 /doc/readjust/ (readjust.png readjust.svg): Re-adjust documentation.
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 752 2011-09-20 15:52:43 <d33tah> hm
 753 2011-09-20 15:52:43 cronopio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 754 2011-09-20 15:52:58 <d33tah> is libbitcoin mainstream? supported by the official devs?
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 760 2011-09-20 16:03:23 <gavinandresen> libbitcoin is an independent project by "the bitcoin consultancy"
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 763 2011-09-20 16:07:40 <d33tah> why not merged?
 764 2011-09-20 16:08:01 <d33tah> i mean, why doesn't a standard bitcoin client use a shared library?
 765 2011-09-20 16:08:36 <sipa> it wasn't developed as such initially
 766 2011-09-20 16:08:38 <gavinandresen> because writing good APIs is hard, and it hasn't been high on the priority list.
 767 2011-09-20 16:08:45 <d33tah> ok
 768 2011-09-20 16:08:51 <sipa> we're slowly moving towards more modularization, though
 769 2011-09-20 16:09:38 <gavinandresen> the bitcoin consultancy folks are moving quickly, but also re-implementing from scratch, which is riskier.
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 771 2011-09-20 16:10:33 <ThomasV> will there be a separation between wallet and network daemon?
 772 2011-09-20 16:12:25 <sipa> once both components are properly modularized, that shouldn't be hard to do
 773 2011-09-20 16:13:25 <gavinandresen> yes, a completely hard and fast separation.  They won't be able to talk to each other at all, which will give maximum security, at the cost of a little inconvenience for the user (you won't be able to send or receive bitcoins).
 774 2011-09-20 16:13:37 <sipa> lol gavinandresen
 775 2011-09-20 16:14:25 <d33tah> ThomasV: seriously, what's the point?
 776 2011-09-20 16:15:15 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: that was a real question
 777 2011-09-20 16:15:21 <sipa> i'd like to see a system where you can run multiple nodes connected through a trusted network, and each node manages one or more wallets, or keeps a block chain database
 778 2011-09-20 16:16:02 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: I know, I don't mean to pick on you.  There just seems to be some idea that having different processes manage the wallet and talk to the network will somehow protect the wallet more than having it all in one process.
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 783 2011-09-20 16:16:28 <sipa> it's the ideal of separation, which people seem to like
 784 2011-09-20 16:16:32 <sipa> and rightfully so
 785 2011-09-20 16:17:09 <sipa> but just having them both as well-defined modules that work more or less independently within the same process is as good, and a lot easier
 786 2011-09-20 16:17:22 <ThomasV> well, I would love to be able to have my wallet on a smart card, or a separate device with screen+pincode
 787 2011-09-20 16:17:39 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: that's a different feature from separation of network and wallet
 788 2011-09-20 16:17:48 <ThomasV> why?
 789 2011-09-20 16:18:09 <gavinandresen> ... because you need a wallet that knows how to talk to smart cards or separate devices
 790 2011-09-20 16:18:32 <sipa> indeed, what you ask is in fact a separate wallet implementation that can be plugged into the framework
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 794 2011-09-20 16:18:47 <sipa> or at least a separate keystore, which is only part of the wallet
 795 2011-09-20 16:18:49 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: I want ecdsa to be implemented in the smart card
 796 2011-09-20 16:18:50 <gavinandresen> ... which is why I'd really like to come to consensus on multi-signature standard transactions soon....
 797 2011-09-20 16:19:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: you mentioned it in the status-mail, but no follow-up mail followed
 798 2011-09-20 16:19:52 <gavinandresen> sipa: I didn't want to start too many discussion threads at once
 799 2011-09-20 16:20:00 <sipa> yeah, good thing probably
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 801 2011-09-20 16:20:23 <sipa> anyway, the very first step is agreeing on a subset of scripts that will be allowed to pass the IsStandard() test
 802 2011-09-20 16:20:25 <gavinandresen> Proposal A is:   https://gist.github.com/39158239e36f6af69d6f
 803 2011-09-20 16:20:36 <gavinandresen> Proposal B is:  https://gist.github.com/dba89537d352d591eb36
 804 2011-09-20 16:20:36 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: I did read some of your mails about multi-sig, but I am not convinced ; it seems to be that (a or (b and c)) could be implemented at a different level, in the wallet encryption software
 805 2011-09-20 16:21:05 <sipa> ThomasV: that at least requires one single wallet to hold the actual key
 806 2011-09-20 16:21:30 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: what sipa said.  The goal is for private keys a,b,c to NEVER be on the same device at the same time
 807 2011-09-20 16:22:09 <gavinandresen> (because if they are, a virus/trojan can hijack them)
 808 2011-09-20 16:22:21 <ThomasV> but why is it necessary to put that in the bitcoin protocol?
 809 2011-09-20 16:22:40 <sipa> it's the most elegant way imaginabl;e
 810 2011-09-20 16:22:57 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: write up a Proposal C that does it outside the protocol and I'll be happy as a clam
 811 2011-09-20 16:23:08 <sipa> the possibility for this kind of things is imho the one absolute advantage bitcoin has over any other currency
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 813 2011-09-20 16:24:10 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: sorry, I am not an expert, so I might be wrong about that. but it seems to me that adding new features to the protocol is not a priority, when the software itself needs to be perfected
 814 2011-09-20 16:24:33 <sipa> the protocol doesn't need to be changed at all
 815 2011-09-20 16:24:47 <ThomasV> oh, I thought it needed to
 816 2011-09-20 16:24:50 <sipa> satoshi envisioned all these things in advance :)
 817 2011-09-20 16:24:52 <gavinandresen> Yes, protocol is the same, set of transactions that are relayed/included in blocks is extended.
 818 2011-09-20 16:25:14 <gavinandresen> And it is a priority because that has to be put in place BEFORE the feature actually gets exposed to users
 819 2011-09-20 16:25:45 <gavinandresen> (otherwise users will be creating transactions that will never get into blocks)
 820 2011-09-20 16:26:11 <gavinandresen> (well, not never... I think the Elgius pool would include them...)
 821 2011-09-20 16:26:37 <ThomasV> well, if you say so... as I said, I am no expert on that question. my concern was about your general approach, adding features versus improving what exists
 822 2011-09-20 16:27:01 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: what improvements do you want to see?
 823 2011-09-20 16:27:34 <ThomasV> modularity, so that wallet and network can be two processes
 824 2011-09-20 16:28:04 <d33tah> i'd personally love an improvement adding me like 1k BTC :d
 825 2011-09-20 16:28:16 <sipa> modularity will come along the way
 826 2011-09-20 16:28:19 <midnightmagic> sounds like the party lines of OpenBSD..
 827 2011-09-20 16:28:25 <gavinandresen> mmm.  Not high on my priority list-- my priorities are network stability, and wallet backup/security.
 828 2011-09-20 16:29:08 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: if these processes were separated, you could more easily involve people in them
 829 2011-09-20 16:30:02 <sipa> you seem to confuse separation of the execution with separation of the logic
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 831 2011-09-20 16:30:30 <ThomasV> sipa: no, but if you do not have the latter, you cannot have the former
 832 2011-09-20 16:30:36 <sipa> agree
 833 2011-09-20 16:30:37 <midnightmagic> privilege separation, unprivileged setuid, and then you have to break two things and not just one.
 834 2011-09-20 16:30:51 <midnightmagic> ah, The0.. wherefore art thou
 835 2011-09-20 16:31:10 <gavinandresen> break the network code and you can send a message to the wallet that says "send all bitcoins here, please"
 836 2011-09-20 16:31:34 <midnightmagic> unless the idea is the wallet is the origin of all sends.
 837 2011-09-20 16:31:51 <gavinandresen> ... unless the wallet is locked, in which case the broken network code installs a keylogger and unlocks the wallet....
 838 2011-09-20 16:32:12 <midnightmagic> unless the network code is an unprivileged user, in which case it must elevate its privileges
 839 2011-09-20 16:32:20 <ThomasV> the network daemon should know nothing about keys. the wallet process should own the keys, and sign stuff
 840 2011-09-20 16:33:13 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: security is easier on two small pieces of code than on a large one ; there are less interactions
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 842 2011-09-20 16:33:24 <midnightmagic> .. which would require 1) breaking the network daemon, and 2) breaking the system. not necessarily twice as hard, but certainly harder than just breaking the network daemon. this is partly the idea of qmail, and the central tenets of OpenBSD security auditing.
 843 2011-09-20 16:34:44 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic ThomasV :  good points.
 844 2011-09-20 16:34:52 <sipa> ThomasV: that's the key: limiting the interactions between wallet and main
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 846 2011-09-20 16:35:27 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: just to be clear, I'm not advocating it, personally. I think you guys are doing a fine job. :) Offline wallets are a poor-man's version of this, and so I personally have no need of ThomasV's request. :)
 847 2011-09-20 16:35:33 <gavinandresen> ... but the vulnerability I'm really interested in plugging isn't the "there's a buffer overflow in bitcoin", it is "your PC is a zombie"
 848 2011-09-20 16:35:44 <midnightmagic> lol
 849 2011-09-20 16:36:19 <gavinandresen> Because plugging the "your PC is a zombie" takes care of the buffer overflow problem, too
 850 2011-09-20 16:36:59 <gavinandresen> afk for lunch for a while
 851 2011-09-20 16:37:21 <midnightmagic> ciao gavin!
 852 2011-09-20 16:38:25 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: if my wallet is implemented on a smart card, with its own keyboard and display, and it runs software that cannot be modified, then I will not have to care about the daemon running on a zombie PC
 853 2011-09-20 16:38:57 <sipa> and you will also not care whether the wallet and the network code are separated
 854 2011-09-20 16:39:10 <ThomasV> sipa: huh?
 855 2011-09-20 16:39:12 <sipa> as long as the keystore functionality is moved to the smartcard
 856 2011-09-20 16:39:33 <ThomasV> yes, that means separation, doesn't it ?
 857 2011-09-20 16:39:50 <sipa> sure thing
 858 2011-09-20 16:39:52 <sipa> but of a much smaller part of the code than you think
 859 2011-09-20 16:40:09 <sipa> the wallet is a lot more than just keeping keys and storing them
 860 2011-09-20 16:40:11 <ThomasV> how do you know what I think?
 861 2011-09-20 16:40:31 <sipa> because you seem to think that the entire wallet should be a separate process
 862 2011-09-20 16:40:46 <sipa> (which, i agree, would imply a very desirable degree of separation)
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 864 2011-09-20 16:41:27 <midnightmagic> software that cannot be modified could have an unfixable flaw.
 865 2011-09-20 16:42:13 <ThomasV> midnightmagic: you do not fix the software in your smart cards, do you ?
 866 2011-09-20 16:42:43 <ThomasV> you just buy a new card
 867 2011-09-20 16:43:05 <midnightmagic> I hate smart cards. There's a reason why grey-market satellite flourished for so long.
 868 2011-09-20 16:43:27 <midnightmagic> how do you get the old stuff on the old sc into the new one?
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 870 2011-09-20 16:43:41 <ThomasV> what stuff?
 871 2011-09-20 16:43:50 <midnightmagic> you said you want the wallet on your smart card..?
 872 2011-09-20 16:44:03 <ThomasV> keys? use a deterministic wallet
 873 2011-09-20 16:44:15 <midnightmagic> that sounds scary
 874 2011-09-20 16:44:24 <midnightmagic> "Now that is a big door!"
 875 2011-09-20 16:44:30 <ThomasV> no, it's a or (b and c)
 876 2011-09-20 16:44:45 <donpdonp> midnightmagic: "you want one? i make these cards"
 877 2011-09-20 16:44:54 <midnightmagic> \o
 878 2011-09-20 16:44:55 <ThomasV> a is your passphrase, b and c are the card and the pin
 879 2011-09-20 16:45:53 <midnightmagic> the problem with that is that you are trusting the aggregator with authority unless your SC is given authority to irrevocably sign a transaction to an independently-verifiable destination.
 880 2011-09-20 16:46:08 <midnightmagic> i don't know of any smart cards with LCD displays.
 881 2011-09-20 16:47:08 <ThomasV> no, you have cards that have memory that can be modified, plus some memory that is read only
 882 2011-09-20 16:47:30 <ThomasV> and yes, there are cards with displays
 883 2011-09-20 16:47:37 <BGL> new bot testing -> #bitcoin-cake
 884 2011-09-20 16:47:38 <ThomasV> (not sure if lcd)
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 888 2011-09-20 16:53:15 <midnightmagic> but what i mean is, if the entire system but the smart card is compromised, then it can just ask the smartcard to sign a nefarious transaction to attacker Mallory, and unless you have some way of independently verifying the destination and signing just that destination, you've just given away your transaction volume to the wrong person.
 889 2011-09-20 16:55:23 <ThomasV> midnightmagic: that is what the display on the card is for
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 891 2011-09-20 16:57:17 <mrb_> 09:36 < midnightmagic> i don't know of any smart cards with LCD displays.
 892 2011-09-20 16:57:26 <mrb_> something even better exists: cards with e-paper displays
 893 2011-09-20 16:57:41 <midnightmagic> mrb_: That's sexy.
 894 2011-09-20 16:58:13 <ThomasV> yes, lcds are not bendable
 895 2011-09-20 16:58:15 <mrb_> as thin and flexible as a credit card
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 897 2011-09-20 16:58:24 <mrb_> e-paper displays are flexible
 898 2011-09-20 16:58:24 <midnightmagic> mrb_: Waterproof?
 899 2011-09-20 16:58:32 <ThomasV> there's a taiwanese company that produces them
 900 2011-09-20 16:58:41 <mrb_> eg. see the paypal security key (I have one)
 901 2011-09-20 16:58:42 <midnightmagic> or rather..  laundry detergent+waterproof? :)
 902 2011-09-20 16:58:43 <mrb_> https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?&cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside
 903 2011-09-20 16:58:45 <ThomasV> with pinpad and screen
 904 2011-09-20 16:59:01 <midnightmagic> is that available to independent developers or is that one of those closed projects?
 905 2011-09-20 16:59:01 <mrb_> midnightmagic: yes waterproof
 906 2011-09-20 16:59:11 <mrb_> never put in the washer machine though :)
 907 2011-09-20 16:59:24 <mrb_> I never put mine in the washer machine though :)
 908 2011-09-20 16:59:37 <mrb_> there is no pinpad
 909 2011-09-20 16:59:59 <cjdelisle> does it do wifi or something/
 910 2011-09-20 17:00:00 <cjdelisle> ?
 911 2011-09-20 17:00:22 <mrb_> manufacturers sell them to anyone, but for some strange reason, they are not very well known, despite their awesomeness
 912 2011-09-20 17:00:55 <mrb_> it doesn't do wifi, there is a tamperproof chip that generates one-time pincodes
 913 2011-09-20 17:01:00 <midnightmagic> hrm. that's odd. the last really awesome cards (in terms of technical construction) that I was exposed to were the directv smartcards.
 914 2011-09-20 17:01:21 <mrb_> the built-in lithium-polymer battery is just as thin and flexible, and designed to last years
 915 2011-09-20 17:01:37 <midnightmagic> lithium-polymer makes my jeans tight
 916 2011-09-20 17:02:08 <cjdelisle> too bad they don't have a way to get the infoz from the computer about who wants your money
 917 2011-09-20 17:02:37 <mrb_> I said no pinpad, but there could be one
 918 2011-09-20 17:02:44 <mrb_> the paypal card has one input button
 919 2011-09-20 17:03:12 <mrb_> I presume they could easily add a regular 3x4 pinpad
 920 2011-09-20 17:03:22 <cjdelisle> mm 1 button would work as long as it could get input from the computer
 921 2011-09-20 17:04:09 <mrb_> you could imagine a card that you program to send btc to 1 or 2 of your addresses
 922 2011-09-20 17:04:21 <mrb_> you preload the card with many btc
 923 2011-09-20 17:04:36 <mrb_> and use the pinpad occasionaly to withdraw btc to these preprogrammed addresses
 924 2011-09-20 17:04:51 <cjdelisle> best IMO is: camera to snap qrcode, bitcoind node to keep track of balance and wifi to communicate with a POC device (to send the TX message)
 925 2011-09-20 17:04:57 <mrb_> and the e-paper dispaly could be use to display a 2D barcode of the transaction
 926 2011-09-20 17:05:09 <mrb_> that you scan with a smartphone
 927 2011-09-20 17:05:23 <mrb_> yep.
 928 2011-09-20 17:05:29 <cjdelisle> so that's more of a dedicated smartphone
 929 2011-09-20 17:05:49 <midnightmagic> not if the txn was signed by the SC and couldn't be subverted by a naughty smartphone.
 930 2011-09-20 17:06:00 <midnightmagic> in that case, either the txn gets through, or it doesn't.
 931 2011-09-20 17:06:13 <mrb_> (in my example, the smartphone would be used to forward the txn, that's all, it wouldn't sign it or have access to the wallet)
 932 2011-09-20 17:07:02 <cjdelisle> dedicated "secure" smartphone
 933 2011-09-20 17:07:21 <midnightmagic> it would suck if I had to carry around 3 phones.
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 938 2011-09-20 17:16:24 <midnightmagic> great hostname, mosi, jesus
 939 2011-09-20 17:16:35 * donpdonp was thinking the same thing
 940 2011-09-20 17:17:01 <helo> hooge ftw
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 943 2011-09-20 17:17:48 <devrandom> gavinandresen: there?
 944 2011-09-20 17:17:54 <gavinandresen> yes
 945 2011-09-20 17:17:56 <midnightmagic> is that pronounced like hug but with a long u?
 946 2011-09-20 17:18:56 <devrandom> gavinandresen: you do need 64 bit host to emulate a 64 bit guest
 947 2011-09-20 17:19:07 <d33tah> is random seed needed to perform ECDSA_sign?
 948 2011-09-20 17:19:25 <devrandom> I'm guessing your hw 64 bit and you installed 32 bit on it?
 949 2011-09-20 17:19:56 <gavinandresen> devrandom: sigh.  Yup.  Is there an easy way to upgrade from 32 to 64 bit?  Or should I just wipe the disk and start again?
 950 2011-09-20 17:21:29 <devrandom> I never tried upgrading 32->64.  It probably won't work while running from it, but maybe there's a way to upgrade from a live USB disk.
 951 2011-09-20 17:22:03 <gavinandresen> devrandom: I already downloaded the 64-bit ISO because I figured the answer would be 'reinstall', I'll see what options it gives me.
 952 2011-09-20 17:22:26 <gavinandresen> ... although actually, I didn't invest THAT much time into setup, so I might just wipe the disk anyway...
 953 2011-09-20 17:22:54 <devrandom> yeah, probably faster
 954 2011-09-20 17:23:22 <devrandom> glad that you are becoming gitian capable :)
 955 2011-09-20 17:23:32 <gavinandresen> happy to be a guinea pig
 956 2011-09-20 17:24:02 <devrandom> BlueMatt got a deterministic build for windows too
 957 2011-09-20 17:24:14 <devrandom> (you probably are already aware)
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 967 2011-09-20 17:38:54 <d33tah> i'm reading openssl ECDSA code
 968 2011-09-20 17:38:58 <d33tah> and i don't exactly understand
 969 2011-09-20 17:39:05 <d33tah> what do i need random seed in key signing?
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 971 2011-09-20 17:55:27 TD is now known as TD[gone]
 972 2011-09-20 17:58:45 <WakiMiko> quick question: why does the bitcoin client need to know its own external ip address?
 973 2011-09-20 17:59:09 <Keefe> to advertise to others where it can be reached?
 974 2011-09-20 18:00:17 <WakiMiko> so when a client is asked for addresses, it includes its own address? isnt that kinda redundant because the receiver is already connected to it anyway?
 975 2011-09-20 18:01:47 <Keefe> i'm sure that's not where it's use
 976 2011-09-20 18:01:49 <Keefe> used*
 977 2011-09-20 18:02:32 <WakiMiko> hmm then where is it used?
 978 2011-09-20 18:02:36 <Keefe> i haven't studied bitcoin's networking code
 979 2011-09-20 18:02:48 <Keefe> just thinking it's similar to other p2p networks
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 983 2011-09-20 18:09:06 <jix> d33tah: for DSA (and that includes ECDSA) you need a random value that isn't predictable otherwise it's trivial to derive the private key from 2 signatures and the public key
 984 2011-09-20 18:09:35 <jix> d33tah: see sony's ps3 fail
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1003 2011-09-20 18:48:02 <Disposition> huh, scene on wall street is actually pretty messy
1004 2011-09-20 18:48:03 <Disposition> http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
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1010 2011-09-20 18:55:53 BTC_away__ is now known as BTCTrader
1011 2011-09-20 18:56:36 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r700f942 / src/net.cpp :
1012 2011-09-20 18:56:36 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #522 from sipa/minorfix
1013 2011-09-20 18:56:36 <CIA-101> bitcoin: SocketHandler thread can be detached - http://git.io/dW6IGQ
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1021 2011-09-20 19:17:22 <melvster1> i just installed the latest client on ubuntu ( sudo apt-add-repository ppa:stretch/bitcoin ) ... does anyone know if mining is turned on by default, i could not find it in the options and my cpu is high
1022 2011-09-20 19:17:50 <melvster1> i have only 135k blocks so far ... been running a few hours
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1024 2011-09-20 19:20:35 <cjdelisle> cpu is relitively high while it gets the blockchain
1025 2011-09-20 19:23:06 <melvster1> ok thanks
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1032 2011-09-20 19:37:24 <Disposition> melvster1: mining fron the default client has been disabled.
1033 2011-09-20 19:37:28 <Disposition> or rather removed.
1034 2011-09-20 19:37:38 <Disposition> since 0.3.1iirc.
1035 2011-09-20 19:38:11 <melvster1> Disposition: thanks, that's good to know .... I'm always careful about whether I've installed the right thing with btc! :)
1036 2011-09-20 19:38:26 marf_away has joined
1037 2011-09-20 19:42:04 <Diablo-D3> dont worry
1038 2011-09-20 19:42:08 <Diablo-D3> in the end, all of your btc come to me
1039 2011-09-20 19:42:29 <melvster1> so long as you spend them wisely, that's OK :P
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1084 2011-09-20 21:47:44 <Joric> if i want to get into the block asap, should i broadcast the transaction directly to the pool node? say to the deepbit / eligius node?
1085 2011-09-20 21:50:02 <phantomcircuit> that would probably help
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1135 2011-09-20 22:58:47 <diki> what are the max number of blocks that will exist?
1136 2011-09-20 22:59:29 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgxo
1137 2011-09-20 22:59:29 <gribble> Error: "bc,mtgxo" is not a valid command.
1138 2011-09-20 22:59:31 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1139 2011-09-20 22:59:31 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.795,"low":5.40102,"avg":6.055547394,"vwap":6.097769271,"vol":116958,"last":6.02866,"buy":6.14361,"sell":6.158}}
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1141 2011-09-20 23:00:32 <phantomcircuit> diki, there isn't really one
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1150 2011-09-20 23:06:11 <luke-jr> diki: depends on when Bitcoin dies
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1157 2011-09-20 23:11:30 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
1158 2011-09-20 23:11:31 <gribble> 146206
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1183 2011-09-20 23:33:33 <Joric> may i check the status of my own transaction before it hits the block? e.g. would over clients send it back to me if it's considered valid? would nodes i used for the broadcast send it back to me?
1184 2011-09-20 23:34:39 <Namegduf> You shouldn't knowingly be able to generate bad transactions; and the cases you couldn't detect it locally (addresses being modified elsewhere) there's no way for you to know.
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1186 2011-09-20 23:35:44 <Namegduf> And no real reason to expect the nodes you're directly connected to to know either.
1187 2011-09-20 23:35:44 <cjdelisle> you should see it in #bitcoin-watch when luke's machine picks it up
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1189 2011-09-20 23:36:35 <Namegduf> Technically it could still be a double-spend (the only thing you can't detect locally)
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1191 2011-09-20 23:36:47 <Namegduf> Admittably unlikely, but it's unlikely to happen anyway.
1192 2011-09-20 23:38:58 <Joric> well the node should talk back to me it's not udp after all, i supposed it would tell me if it's going to broadcast this transaction further or not
1193 2011-09-20 23:39:29 <gmaxwell> It does not.
1194 2011-09-20 23:40:19 <gmaxwell> And that kind of feedback wouldn't be that useful: one hop could be done, but multi-hop has scalablity/DDOS implications.. and if something makes it one hop only to die the next it might as well have just died on the first one.
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1196 2011-09-20 23:40:41 <gmaxwell> Unless you've modified your node software you won't generate txn that most nodes won't forward.
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1206 2011-09-20 23:52:45 <copumpkin> comboy_: http://snapplr.com/qzz0
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