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31 2011-09-21 01:01:56 * copumpkin pokes b4epoche
32 2011-09-21 01:02:23 <b4epoche_> yea?
33 2011-09-21 01:02:59 <copumpkin> am I not cool enough for you? :(
34 2011-09-21 01:03:07 <b4epoche_> what?
35 2011-09-21 01:03:12 * copumpkin weeps
36 2011-09-21 01:03:27 <b4epoche_> maybe not⦠if you're crying over it
37 2011-09-21 01:03:45 * copumpkin sobs
38 2011-09-21 01:04:09 <b4epoche_> I'm so cool I was actually headed to bed (at 8:52pm) when you poked me
39 2011-09-21 01:04:32 <copumpkin> oh man
40 2011-09-21 01:04:38 <copumpkin> I'll let you get back to that, then
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522 2011-09-21 09:22:05 <AlexWaters> anyone know how I can blockexplore test-net-in-a-box?
523 2011-09-21 09:25:40 SomeoneWeird has joined
524 2011-09-21 09:30:45 <sipa> is there an open-source blockexplorer-like system yet?
525 2011-09-21 09:35:57 * AlexWaters hopes so
526 2011-09-21 09:36:37 <AlexWaters> ;;seen bluematt
527 2011-09-21 09:36:38 <gribble> bluematt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 18 hours, 21 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
528 2011-09-21 09:37:01 <doublec> sipa: like abe?
529 2011-09-21 09:37:02 <AlexWaters> =/
530 2011-09-21 09:37:18 <doublec> sipa: https://github.com/jtobey/bitcoin-abe
531 2011-09-21 09:37:26 <AlexWaters> doublec: nice, thanks
532 2011-09-21 09:37:31 <doublec> np
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536 2011-09-21 09:46:58 <diki> as much as i like windows, i dont like the fact that windows 8 will REQUIRE UEFI firmware
537 2011-09-21 09:47:01 ThomasV has joined
538 2011-09-21 09:47:37 <diki> meaning those of us with the standard BIOS will not be able to install win8
539 2011-09-21 09:49:55 <diki> AlexWaters:just so you know
540 2011-09-21 09:49:59 <diki> importing takes days
541 2011-09-21 09:50:02 <diki> at least it is for me
542 2011-09-21 09:50:23 <diki> the first 115 or so thousand blocks import for an hour or two
543 2011-09-21 09:50:27 <diki> after that, its slow as hell
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545 2011-09-21 09:56:55 <AlexWaters> diki: why do you think I will use windows 8? what kind of system are you running that it takes days?
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550 2011-09-21 10:00:15 <AlexWaters> diki: and, why wouldn't there be a work-around for not using uefi?
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562 2011-09-21 10:36:11 <diki> AlexWaters:this is not related to win8
563 2011-09-21 10:36:16 <diki> i was just saying that abe takes a lot of time]
564 2011-09-21 10:36:41 <diki> to import the blockchain into mysql
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567 2011-09-21 10:42:43 <AlexWaters> diki: ohhh, I thought you were talking about the bitcoin client
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570 2011-09-21 10:43:21 <AlexWaters> diki: I only need like 50 blocks to work with, or less even
571 2011-09-21 10:43:26 <AlexWaters> so no big deal
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577 2011-09-21 10:52:57 <AlexWaters> diki: http://bit.ly/q3Iotj
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588 2011-09-21 11:23:51 <DeeTah> anyone here familiar with the uint256 class in Bitcoin sources?
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591 2011-09-21 11:26:31 <DeeTah> nvm, it was just a syntax error problem
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594 2011-09-21 11:35:14 <cjdelisle> I read it and it is awesome and full of win
595 2011-09-21 11:36:22 <cjdelisle> it could be reimplemented with SSE2 __m128i types and it would be faster
596 2011-09-21 11:37:12 <DeeTah> you mean uint256?
597 2011-09-21 11:37:36 <cjdelisle> yes
598 2011-09-21 11:37:52 <DeeTah> what exactly would it speed up?
599 2011-09-21 11:38:25 <cjdelisle> it would be written using a pair of __m128i fields instead of 8 ints
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601 2011-09-21 11:38:40 <DeeTah> you mean 32.
602 2011-09-21 11:38:48 <cjdelisle> err
603 2011-09-21 11:38:49 <DeeTah> oh, 8 ints, 32 u8's
604 2011-09-21 11:38:51 <DeeTah> my bad
605 2011-09-21 11:39:01 <DeeTah> anyway, i mean, what in the client would gain more speed?
606 2011-09-21 11:39:59 <cjdelisle> you'd have to look around at the operations on uint256s
607 2011-09-21 11:40:18 <cjdelisle> maybe it would not be much but addition, shifting, multiplication of uint256s would be faster
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642 2011-09-21 12:54:29 <DeeTah> sipa: you here?
643 2011-09-21 12:55:23 <DeeTah> or anyone else who recently explained me how does transaction signing work?
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660 2011-09-21 13:26:12 <DeeTah> anyone familiar with bitcoin cryptography here?
661 2011-09-21 13:26:41 <helo> here, yes... awake, no :)
662 2011-09-21 13:26:56 <DeeTah> i heard that transaction inputs are signed by ECDSA
663 2011-09-21 13:27:12 <DeeTah> i wanted to see what data are sent to ECDSA_sign
664 2011-09-21 13:27:26 <DeeTah> i found only one reference to this function in bitcoin sources and hacked it up like this:
665 2011-09-21 13:27:53 <DeeTah> http://wklej.org/id/597409/
666 2011-09-21 13:28:13 <DeeTah> then I recompiled and ran bitcoind on testnet and launched a sample transaction
667 2011-09-21 13:28:19 <DeeTah> nothing was printed out, any ideas why?
668 2011-09-21 13:29:05 <sipa> DeeTah: what did you do to invoke it?
669 2011-09-21 13:29:18 <sipa> signing is only done to spend coins
670 2011-09-21 13:29:37 TD[gone] is now known as TD
671 2011-09-21 13:29:38 <sipa> so you'd have to create a transaction to test it
672 2011-09-21 13:29:42 <DeeTah> i did
673 2011-09-21 13:29:52 <sipa> did you check debug.log?
674 2011-09-21 13:29:53 TD is now known as TD[gone]
675 2011-09-21 13:29:56 <DeeTah> not really, thanks
676 2011-09-21 13:29:56 <sipa> printf is redirected there
677 2011-09-21 13:30:24 <DeeTah> nothing there
678 2011-09-21 13:31:35 <DeeTah> got it
679 2011-09-21 13:31:38 <sipa> you're printing the private key as a string?
680 2011-09-21 13:31:39 <DeeTah> i read the wrong debug.log
681 2011-09-21 13:31:43 <DeeTah> thanks sipa
682 2011-09-21 13:31:51 <DeeTah> honestly, i had no idea how to print it properly
683 2011-09-21 13:32:03 <sipa> you can try HexStr
684 2011-09-21 13:32:07 <sipa> it's in util.h
685 2011-09-21 13:32:38 <DeeTah> HexStr(pkey)?
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691 2011-09-21 13:36:45 <sipa> pkey is a blackbox type, so you can't inspect it directly
692 2011-09-21 13:37:08 <sipa> you can extract a serialized private key, or a serialized public key, or just the secret parameter
693 2011-09-21 13:37:24 <DeeTah> how do I?
694 2011-09-21 13:37:31 <sipa> well, what do you want?
695 2011-09-21 13:37:43 <DeeTah> i want something real and reproductible
696 2011-09-21 13:37:59 <sipa> what for?
697 2011-09-21 13:38:10 <DeeTah> i mean, i want to see what is signed so I could build my own app using ECDSA_sign and get the same effects
698 2011-09-21 13:38:25 <DeeTah> then I could test AVR ECDSA code I got from someone42
699 2011-09-21 13:38:38 <DeeTah> and see if I can get it to have the same results on Arduino
700 2011-09-21 13:38:54 <sipa> try .GetSecret()
701 2011-09-21 13:39:02 <DeeTah> i thought it's a C type
702 2011-09-21 13:39:03 <DeeTah> ok
703 2011-09-21 13:39:05 <sipa> it'll give you a 32-byte secret parameter
704 2011-09-21 13:39:12 <sipa> in a CSecret
705 2011-09-21 13:39:29 <DeeTah> like pkey.GetSecret()
706 2011-09-21 13:39:34 <DeeTah> ?
707 2011-09-21 13:39:38 <sipa> no
708 2011-09-21 13:39:42 <sipa> just GetSecret()
709 2011-09-21 13:39:58 <DeeTah> like printf("%d", GetSecret()); ?
710 2011-09-21 13:40:12 <sipa> CSecret vchSecret = GetSecret();
711 2011-09-21 13:40:28 <sipa> printf("%s", HexStr(vchSecret.begin(), vchSecret.end()));
712 2011-09-21 13:40:42 <DeeTah> ok, thanks
713 2011-09-21 13:40:52 <sipa> printf("%s", HexStr(vchSecret.begin(), vchSecret.end()).c_str());
714 2011-09-21 13:40:54 <sipa> actually
715 2011-09-21 13:40:55 <DeeTah> is it the private key thingy, this secret?
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717 2011-09-21 13:41:41 <DeeTah> key.h:143: error: âCSecretâ was not declared in this scope
718 2011-09-21 13:41:45 <sipa> eh
719 2011-09-21 13:41:48 <DeeTah> perhaps you're talking of 0.4?
720 2011-09-21 13:42:10 <sipa> i'm talking about git head
721 2011-09-21 13:42:15 <DeeTah> sigh
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723 2011-09-21 13:42:21 <DeeTah> which sounds like i'll need more hacking
724 2011-09-21 13:42:21 <sipa> what version are you using?
725 2011-09-21 13:42:30 <DeeTah> current stable, 0.3.24
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728 2011-09-21 13:43:19 <sipa> hmm, i believed that was merged there already
729 2011-09-21 13:43:52 <DeeTah> will I be able to just copy the class?
730 2011-09-21 13:43:59 <sipa> just use 0.4
731 2011-09-21 13:44:16 <DeeTah> will its bitcoind compile flawlessly?
732 2011-09-21 13:44:27 <DeeTah> i mean, no new dependencies?
733 2011-09-21 13:44:30 <sipa> if 0.3.24 compiles on your system, 0.4 will too
734 2011-09-21 13:44:41 <DeeTah> ok
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737 2011-09-21 13:45:30 <DeeTah> will it mess up my db?
738 2011-09-21 13:45:35 <DeeTah> or 100% compatible?
739 2011-09-21 13:45:44 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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741 2011-09-21 13:46:28 <sipa> at least forward compatible
742 2011-09-21 13:47:03 <DeeTah> i'll backup the block chain just in case.
743 2011-09-21 13:47:24 <DeeTah> can I expect the output to be the same if it's all pulled from the same txin?
744 2011-09-21 13:48:05 <sipa> hmm?
745 2011-09-21 13:48:24 <DeeTah> the results of my printfs
746 2011-09-21 13:48:36 <sipa> yes
747 2011-09-21 13:48:39 <da2ce7> SomeoneWeird, there is a great series of js videos up on channel 9
748 2011-09-21 13:48:41 <DeeTah> is it possible for them to repeat when I call the same transaction twice, pulling the coins from the same input?
749 2011-09-21 13:48:44 <da2ce7> *finds linky*
750 2011-09-21 13:48:50 <DeeTah> /usr/include/miniupnpc/miniupnpc.h: In function âvoid ThreadMapPort2(void*)â:
751 2011-09-21 13:48:54 <DeeTah> /usr/include/miniupnpc/miniupnpc.h:45: error: too many arguments to function âUPNPDev* upnpDiscover(int, const char*, const char*, int)â
752 2011-09-21 13:48:57 <DeeTah> net.cpp:1087: error: at this point in file
753 2011-09-21 13:49:00 <DeeTah> /usr/include/miniupnpc/upnpcommands.h:123: error: too many arguments to function âint UPNP_AddPortMapping(const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*, const char*)â
754 2011-09-21 13:49:10 <sipa> oh yes, miniupnpc was updated, i believe
755 2011-09-21 13:49:16 <sipa> if you don't need it, just disable it
756 2011-09-21 13:49:24 <sipa> USE_UPNP= on the make command line
757 2011-09-21 13:49:31 <DeeTah> -DUSE_UPNP=0 is set
758 2011-09-21 13:49:50 <sipa> make it =
759 2011-09-21 13:49:50 <sipa> not =0
760 2011-09-21 13:49:57 <DeeTah> kay
761 2011-09-21 13:49:57 <DeeTah> it's a bit confusing ;p
762 2011-09-21 13:49:59 <sipa> =0 means compile in but disabled by default
763 2011-09-21 13:50:02 <sipa> = means don't compile
764 2011-09-21 13:50:05 <DeeTah> kay
765 2011-09-21 13:50:10 <sipa> it's confusing indeed
766 2011-09-21 13:50:20 <DeeTah> good to have you around then
767 2011-09-21 13:50:51 <DeeTah> i hope the data will be enough to test ECDSA_sign
768 2011-09-21 13:51:02 <DeeTah> i wonder if the code I got works the same way
769 2011-09-21 13:51:23 <sipa> i expect it'll take some work
770 2011-09-21 13:51:33 <sipa> encodings differ between several implementations
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772 2011-09-21 13:51:49 <DeeTah> work is not a problem, math is
773 2011-09-21 13:51:50 <DeeTah> :p
774 2011-09-21 13:51:52 <sipa> you need to set the same curve (secp256k1)
775 2011-09-21 13:52:01 <DeeTah> so it's not a standard?
776 2011-09-21 13:52:06 <sipa> it is
777 2011-09-21 13:52:16 <sipa> the standard is called secp256k1 :)
778 2011-09-21 13:52:40 <DeeTah> oh
779 2011-09-21 13:52:42 <DeeTah> lame of me :d
780 2011-09-21 13:53:06 <sipa> you could also manually set the field prime and power, group order, curve parameters, ...
781 2011-09-21 13:53:54 <DeeTah> you seem to know it all very well
782 2011-09-21 13:54:28 <sipa> it took some time :D
783 2011-09-21 13:55:13 b4epoche_ has joined
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785 2011-09-21 13:55:57 <DeeTah> okay
786 2011-09-21 13:55:59 <DeeTah> i think i've managed to get the same private key twice
787 2011-09-21 13:56:15 <DeeTah> now I'd love to get the same message twice
788 2011-09-21 13:56:44 <DeeTah> got it :D
789 2011-09-21 13:56:56 b4epoche_ has quit (Client Quit)
790 2011-09-21 13:57:11 <DeeTah> i guess that means I was using the same input with the same privkey twice?
791 2011-09-21 13:57:25 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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793 2011-09-21 13:58:17 <sipa> note that an ECDSA signature involves a random number
794 2011-09-21 13:58:35 <sipa> so a second signature with the same key on the same data won't be the same
795 2011-09-21 13:58:43 <Diablo-D3> unless you're sony
796 2011-09-21 13:58:58 <DeeTah> so how did I get the same result twice?
797 2011-09-21 13:59:10 <DeeTah> i guess the hash variable stores the signature, right?
798 2011-09-21 13:59:13 <Diablo-D3> DeeTah: you didnt change the random number
799 2011-09-21 13:59:19 <sipa> he did
800 2011-09-21 13:59:26 <sipa> ECDSA_sign does that internally
801 2011-09-21 13:59:57 <sipa> DeeTah: the hash variable is the data being signed
802 2011-09-21 13:59:58 <DeeTah> and when does it change the random number?
803 2011-09-21 14:00:07 <sipa> it doesn't "change" it
804 2011-09-21 14:00:13 <sipa> it just generates a new one every time you call it
805 2011-09-21 14:00:34 <DeeTah> sigh
806 2011-09-21 14:00:38 <DeeTah> that's messed up
807 2011-09-21 14:00:42 <DeeTah> what is it even used for?
808 2011-09-21 14:00:48 <sipa> what?
809 2011-09-21 14:01:08 <DeeTah> i mean, why would signatures need random numbers if they already utilize unknown private keys?
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813 2011-09-21 14:01:28 <Diablo-D3> because thats how it works dude
814 2011-09-21 14:01:30 <sipa> if you have two signatures with the same key and the same random parameter, you can derive the private key from the signature
815 2011-09-21 14:01:41 <sipa> that's what ECDSA's security is based on
816 2011-09-21 14:01:43 <Diablo-D3> ECDSA is a black box, you dont NEED to know how it works
817 2011-09-21 14:01:54 <Diablo-D3> if you actually want to, the wikipedia page describes it well
818 2011-09-21 14:01:59 <sipa> you're right
819 2011-09-21 14:02:15 <sipa> don't try to delve into the details of crypto algorithms unless you know what you do
820 2011-09-21 14:02:41 <DeeTah> i don't exactly :p
821 2011-09-21 14:02:47 <Diablo-D3> heh
822 2011-09-21 14:02:56 <sipa> so if it uses a random number, you can be pretty well sure there is a reason for :)
823 2011-09-21 14:02:56 <Diablo-D3> all public/private key crypto works the same
824 2011-09-21 14:03:06 <sipa> rsa signing doesn't require a random number
825 2011-09-21 14:03:35 <DeeTah> before bitcoin i only heard of rsa when it came to public/private key
826 2011-09-21 14:03:38 <DeeTah> so, ok.
827 2011-09-21 14:03:47 <DeeTah> that means i won't be able to reproduce it all
828 2011-09-21 14:03:59 <sipa> you might try to verify it
829 2011-09-21 14:04:01 <DeeTah> can I somehow force ECDSA_sign to use a specific random seed?
830 2011-09-21 14:04:05 <Diablo-D3> DeeTah: reproduce what?
831 2011-09-21 14:04:14 <Diablo-D3> you're trying to write a ECDSA miner?
832 2011-09-21 14:04:19 <DeeTah> nah
833 2011-09-21 14:04:30 <Diablo-D3> because I've almost been considering that
834 2011-09-21 14:04:54 <sipa> DeeTah: if you're able to correctly verify the signatures bitcoin creates, you probably have a working EC stack implemented
835 2011-09-21 14:04:57 <DeeTah> i'm trying to move the signing part to an external device
836 2011-09-21 14:05:04 <Diablo-D3> DeeTah: dont
837 2011-09-21 14:05:07 <Diablo-D3> because it takes zero computation time to do it
838 2011-09-21 14:05:22 <DeeTah> Diablo-D3: not for performance
839 2011-09-21 14:05:23 <Diablo-D3> seriously, I can verify the entire chain in bitcoin in like 2-3 minutes
840 2011-09-21 14:05:32 <sipa> DeeTah: that would surprise me
841 2011-09-21 14:05:38 <sipa> eh, Diablo-D3
842 2011-09-21 14:05:58 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, I assume bitcoind internally sucks at it
843 2011-09-21 14:06:12 <sipa> that may be a correct assumption
844 2011-09-21 14:06:19 <Diablo-D3> because it chews cpu time like a motherfucker when you're downloading the chain the first time
845 2011-09-21 14:06:23 BTCPoliceLogger has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
846 2011-09-21 14:06:26 <Diablo-D3> and all of its being soaked up by the crypto shit
847 2011-09-21 14:06:29 <sipa> but still: you need like 1ms for a signature verification
848 2011-09-21 14:06:30 <Diablo-D3> so something isnt right somewhere
849 2011-09-21 14:06:55 <Diablo-D3> although it'd be lol to opencl check it
850 2011-09-21 14:06:55 <DeeTah> so, the thing is to verify if the ECDSA_signature is correct, because it's the only way to reproduce stuff?
851 2011-09-21 14:07:28 <sipa> DeeTah: even better would be you generating signatures, and hacking bitcoind to verify them
852 2011-09-21 14:07:43 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why there isnt a universal version of bitcoin yet
853 2011-09-21 14:07:45 <Diablo-D3> it'd be useful
854 2011-09-21 14:07:48 <DeeTah> Diablo-D3: not that bad idea. bitcoin works extremely slowly on my laptop, i think there would be some point doing similar stuff
855 2011-09-21 14:08:00 <sipa> "universion version" ?
856 2011-09-21 14:08:55 <helo> the current version is just the earthly version
857 2011-09-21 14:09:05 <Diablo-D3> a framework just to handle network communications and tx handling
858 2011-09-21 14:09:08 <Diablo-D3> none of the btc shit
859 2011-09-21 14:09:33 <DeeTah> what new data would I need to verify a signature?
860 2011-09-21 14:10:02 <helo> Diablo-D3: shared mining will make that pretty awesome
861 2011-09-21 14:10:02 <sipa> you need a public key, data, and a signature :)
862 2011-09-21 14:11:23 <Diablo-D3> helo: shared mining is kinda pointless imo
863 2011-09-21 14:11:28 <DeeTah> can I get the pubkey from privkey?
864 2011-09-21 14:13:16 <DeeTah> (i wonder how would I get random data from Arduino)
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867 2011-09-21 14:13:59 MagicalTiggr is now known as MrTiggr
868 2011-09-21 14:14:21 <sipa> DeeTah: yes
869 2011-09-21 14:14:22 da2ce7 is now known as MagicalDa
870 2011-09-21 14:14:50 <DeeTah> sipa: mind helping me?
871 2011-09-21 14:14:57 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
872 2011-09-21 14:15:11 <DeeTah> i'd PM you the hashes and you'd help me code a program using ECDSA_verify
873 2011-09-21 14:15:38 <DeeTah> it's testnet, but i wouldn't want the coins to be stolen anyway
874 2011-09-21 14:15:51 <sipa> i can answer questions, but you'll have to do the coding :)
875 2011-09-21 14:16:14 egecko has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
876 2011-09-21 14:16:19 <DeeTah> okay
877 2011-09-21 14:16:20 MagicalDa is now known as da3ce8
878 2011-09-21 14:16:39 <DeeTah> i'll do some testing first
879 2011-09-21 14:18:43 coderrr has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5)
880 2011-09-21 14:19:54 <DeeTah> btw, why is even any code apart from the headers in key.h?
881 2011-09-21 14:20:28 da3ce8 is now known as da2ce7
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885 2011-09-21 14:25:36 <DeeTah> i wonder how to dump pchSig
886 2011-09-21 14:26:30 <sipa> vchSig?
887 2011-09-21 14:26:33 coderrr has joined
888 2011-09-21 14:26:41 <sipa> HexStr(vchSig.begin(), vchSig.end())
889 2011-09-21 14:26:59 <DeeTah> that could work ;)
890 2011-09-21 14:27:22 <DeeTah> it's a pity i have to rebuild everything everytime
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895 2011-09-21 14:39:21 <DeeTah> hey, sipa, wtf
896 2011-09-21 14:39:25 <DeeTah> i got the same pchsig twice
897 2011-09-21 14:39:31 <DeeTah> oh
898 2011-09-21 14:39:35 <DeeTah> not exactly the same, nvm
899 2011-09-21 14:40:05 <DeeTah> just the first five bytes
900 2011-09-21 14:40:41 <DeeTah> i wonder why anyway :P
901 2011-09-21 14:40:57 <sipa> the DER encoding used for signatures isn't very efficient
902 2011-09-21 14:41:09 <DeeTah> what do you men?
903 2011-09-21 14:41:10 <sipa> i guess the first few bytes are always the same
904 2011-09-21 14:41:11 <DeeTah> mean*?
905 2011-09-21 14:41:35 <edcba> so ?
906 2011-09-21 14:42:27 <DeeTah> yeah, the five bytes are always the same.
907 2011-09-21 14:45:21 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
908 2011-09-21 14:46:18 <sipa> that's not too strange; DER encoded signatures are 72 bytes, but there are only 64 significant bytes in there
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945 2011-09-21 15:29:49 graingert has joined
946 2011-09-21 15:30:01 <graingert> what version of TLS does bitcoind support?
947 2011-09-21 15:30:17 <sipa> for RPC?
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949 2011-09-21 15:38:35 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
950 2011-09-21 15:38:39 <edcba> suspicious question
951 2011-09-21 15:39:30 <graingert> yeah DW it was my mistake
952 2011-09-21 15:40:02 <graingert> the sploit in TLSv1 only works if you have JS injected in the target anyway
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964 2011-09-21 16:01:22 <CIA-101> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r6f4053e / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix crash in arg parsing - http://git.io/e3-8xg
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1017 2011-09-21 17:27:56 <b4epoche> I need a catchy title for this TEDx talk on Bitcoin I'm giving⦠any suggestions?
1018 2011-09-21 17:28:24 danbri has joined
1019 2011-09-21 17:29:02 <AlexWaters> Bitcoin the musical
1020 2011-09-21 17:29:15 <AlexWaters> lol, sorry
1021 2011-09-21 17:30:15 <AlexWaters> Bitcoin: the premiere crypto-currency
1022 2011-09-21 17:32:39 <da2ce7> Bitcoin and Buttcoin: the if's the butt's and the whatevers.
1023 2011-09-21 17:33:17 <da2ce7> Bitcoin: naked finance.
1024 2011-09-21 17:34:43 nhodges has joined
1025 2011-09-21 17:34:49 * da2ce7 will get kicked (again from #bitcoin-dev if I keep that up)
1026 2011-09-21 17:34:51 Diablo-D3 has joined
1027 2011-09-21 17:34:57 <da2ce7> hello Diablo-D3 :)
1028 2011-09-21 17:35:28 <Diablo-D3> hello
1029 2011-09-21 17:35:42 <da2ce7> what ya up2 today?
1030 2011-09-21 17:36:36 <b4epoche> my best: Bitcoin - Money to the People
1031 2011-09-21 17:36:36 <Diablo-D3> trying to get consolekit to work properly under slim
1032 2011-09-21 17:36:51 mixter has joined
1033 2011-09-21 17:38:11 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: "Bitcoin: Platonic money"
1034 2011-09-21 17:39:22 Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1035 2011-09-21 17:40:06 <b4epoche> hmm⦠I like it
1036 2011-09-21 17:41:35 <gmaxwell> (There is a good argument that bitcoin is 'pure' in a way that nothing has been beforeâ other than its use as money bitcoin is useless, but it has the important properties of moneyâ limited supply, fluidity, fungability, non-forgablity, etc more strongly than anything else we use as money)
1037 2011-09-21 17:42:56 <gmaxwell> This article makes an argument supporting this position: http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/06/21/against-the-gold-standard/
1038 2011-09-21 17:43:05 <b4epoche> I like it more
1039 2011-09-21 17:43:46 Diablo-D3 has joined
1040 2011-09-21 17:45:32 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: and that also gives you a framework to talk about the specifics of the bitcoin system, e.g. how those properties arise.
1041 2011-09-21 17:45:55 m00p has joined
1042 2011-09-21 17:46:05 <gmaxwell> (also it tells the audience why it should care about money right up front)
1043 2011-09-21 17:46:20 <gmaxwell> s/money/bitcoin/ heh
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1046 2011-09-21 17:47:12 <b4epoche> yea, I think I'm going to start the talk with a little discussion of 'money'
1047 2011-09-21 17:47:28 <helo> yeah... discussions of bitcoin i've started tend to end because nobody cares about it
1048 2011-09-21 17:48:32 <b4epoche> it takes a bit of a captive audience because most people will say, "What's the problem with the current system?"
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1050 2011-09-21 17:49:12 <gmaxwell> Yea, a key idea in giving a talk is that you need to create a connection between the audience and the subject.
1051 2011-09-21 17:50:25 <gmaxwell> b4epoche: you can at least make the point that if nothing else undestanding bitcoin gives you a new perspective on the subject as money. We take it for granted, having another kind of money available gives you a microscope to understand everything else.
1052 2011-09-21 17:50:44 <b4epoche> and I like starting with 'money' in general because people think they understand it but really don't (or haven't thought much about it)
1053 2011-09-21 17:51:04 <gmaxwell> Right. Money needs to have all these properties in order to work, and people never think about them.
1054 2011-09-21 17:51:34 <b4epoche> in fact, that's a lot of the reason I like bitcoin. It's forced me to think about some things.
1055 2011-09-21 17:51:37 <gmaxwell> It's more than "money can be exchange for goods and services". Why should people trade you goods and services for inadequate toilet paper?
1056 2011-09-21 17:51:41 <gmaxwell> yep.
1057 2011-09-21 17:52:25 <nhodges> someone needs to convince lowtax (somethingawful admin/owner) to accept bitcoin for registration
1058 2011-09-21 17:52:25 <nhodges> lulz
1059 2011-09-21 17:52:29 <nhodges> THAT would be funny
1060 2011-09-21 17:57:51 c00w has joined
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1062 2011-09-21 18:01:08 <k9quaint> money should have pictures of nekkid women on it
1063 2011-09-21 18:01:54 <ThomasV_> kekkid?
1064 2011-09-21 18:02:08 copumpkin is now known as gribbles
1065 2011-09-21 18:02:25 <b4epoche> quit f'ing 'round copumpkin ;-)
1066 2011-09-21 18:02:46 ocharles_ is now known as ocharles
1067 2011-09-21 18:02:58 <b4epoche> and I'm sure tons have people have tried to figure out how to combine money with porn
1068 2011-09-21 18:02:58 <gribbles> am I not mature and educated enough for you, b4epoche ?
1069 2011-09-21 18:03:11 <b4epoche> where are you getting this?
1070 2011-09-21 18:03:38 clr_ has joined
1071 2011-09-21 18:03:39 <b4epoche> did you get kicked out of the top-secret channel?
1072 2011-09-21 18:03:51 <gribbles> nah, it's just invite-only and I have no way to get back in
1073 2011-09-21 18:04:38 <helo> use up/down motion to generate current to power a miner
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1112 2011-09-21 20:02:25 <Optimo> rasengan: I run the bigboss repo :) everything looks okay but it's not every day that we get a non-cocoa app submitted. if you've done the appropriate testing on a jailbroken device it will probably be okay - and I will test it for myself prior to publication
1113 2011-09-21 20:03:22 <b4epoche> Optimo: wrong channel
1114 2011-09-21 20:03:31 <b4epoche> I think
1115 2011-09-21 20:03:31 <Optimo> why?
1116 2011-09-21 20:03:35 <rasengan> Optimo: Thank you so much, sir!
1117 2011-09-21 20:03:36 <Optimo> nope
1118 2011-09-21 20:03:43 <copumpkin> :o
1119 2011-09-21 20:03:48 <Optimo> any reason you chose to use Appcelrator insted of something more native on teh whole?
1120 2011-09-21 20:03:56 <rasengan> Optimo: Cross platform
1121 2011-09-21 20:04:06 <Optimo> oh sure. of course
1122 2011-09-21 20:04:25 <b4epoche> what's rasengan up to?
1123 2011-09-21 20:04:38 <Optimo> a nice mtgox app, from the looks of it
1124 2011-09-21 20:05:03 <b4epoche> web app?
1125 2011-09-21 20:05:15 <b4epoche> not sure what you mean by non-cocoa
1126 2011-09-21 20:05:22 <rasengan> www.appcelerator.com i think
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1128 2011-09-21 20:05:49 <b4epoche> ah, I see
1129 2011-09-21 20:06:12 <Optimo> technically primarily it is cocoa, but not entirely through and through :)
1130 2011-09-21 20:06:33 <Optimo> rasengan: cool I shot you a quick reply too
1131 2011-09-21 20:07:11 <rasengan> Optimo: Cool, thank you :)
1132 2011-09-21 20:07:41 <EskimoBob> Hi, do bitcoin-qt devs hang around here?
1133 2011-09-21 20:08:02 <sipa> wumpus is bitcoin-qt's developer
1134 2011-09-21 20:09:02 <Optimo> I suppose this chat is really for dev chat regarding the development of the bitcoin protocol and mainline app, so forgive me if I sputed off int eh wrong place
1135 2011-09-21 20:09:13 <EskimoBob> wumpus: any idea what "i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_s-1_42ystem " error means?
1136 2011-09-21 20:09:14 <Optimo> probably should have mentioned it in #mtgoxlive or #mtgox
1137 2011-09-21 20:09:30 <rasengan> :D
1138 2011-09-21 20:10:00 <sipa> EskimoBob: it means you don't have a file libboost_s-1_42ystem.a
1139 2011-09-21 20:10:08 <sipa> in you LD_LIBRARY_PATH
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1141 2011-09-21 20:11:49 <wumpus> probably means that your boost libraries have another name
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1143 2011-09-21 20:12:21 <wumpus> it sucks that boost has no pkgconfig support so we can only guess at the library names...
1144 2011-09-21 20:13:18 <wumpus> especially as they embed version numbers and other funny stuff
1145 2011-09-21 20:20:10 <EskimoBob> sipa: I have Boost Libraries for C++ installed
1146 2011-09-21 20:20:22 <EskimoBob> version 1.42.0-r2
1147 2011-09-21 20:20:37 <sipa> i assume you made a typo when copy-pasting to IRC?
1148 2011-09-21 20:20:46 <sipa> there seems to be an 's' missing
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1150 2011-09-21 20:21:53 <EskimoBob> ?
1151 2011-09-21 20:22:13 <tcatm> can bitcoin re-create blkindex.dat from blk0001.dat?
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1153 2011-09-21 20:22:57 <sipa> i don't think that's implementede
1154 2011-09-21 20:23:01 <sipa> but it should be possible
1155 2011-09-21 20:23:07 <wumpus> -lboost_s-1_42ystem <- boost has funny library names, but I don't think that's right
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1157 2011-09-21 20:23:21 <sipa> EskimoBob: 1_42system instead of 1_42ystem
1158 2011-09-21 20:23:36 <wumpus> did you change the bitcoin-qt.pro?
1159 2011-09-21 20:24:06 <wumpus> on unix it links to unix:!macx:LIBS += -lboost_system -lboost_filesystem -lboost_program_options -lboost_thread
1160 2011-09-21 20:24:12 <EskimoBob> lboost_s-1_42ystem < this is a copy / paste from error message
1161 2011-09-21 20:24:13 <wumpus> change that line if the libraries are named differently
1162 2011-09-21 20:24:50 <wumpus> it seems you added -1_42 in the middle of the lib name instead of at the end? or someone else did
1163 2011-09-21 20:25:31 <EskimoBob> "/usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_s-1_42ystem"
1164 2011-09-21 20:25:42 <EskimoBob> that is how it looks
1165 2011-09-21 20:26:37 <wumpus> that's why I asked whether you changed the bitcoin-qt.pro file
1166 2011-09-21 20:27:04 <wumpus> unchanged it links against -lboost-system, no 1_42 inbetween
1167 2011-09-21 20:28:03 <EskimoBob> Makefile:LIBS = $(SUBLIBS) -L/usr/lib/qt4 -lssl -lcrypto -ldb_cxx -lboost_s-1_42ystem <---!
1168 2011-09-21 20:28:33 <wumpus> yes...
1169 2011-09-21 20:28:39 <EskimoBob> i have not changed anything. Looks like the error is right there
1170 2011-09-21 20:28:43 <sipa> EskimoBob: where did yoi get the source?
1171 2011-09-21 20:28:47 <sipa> you
1172 2011-09-21 20:28:58 <wumpus> EskimoBob: is it also in bitcoin-qt.pro ?
1173 2011-09-21 20:29:11 <wumpus> the makefile is generated from that by qmake
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1175 2011-09-21 20:29:34 <EskimoBob> git git
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1178 2011-09-21 20:30:26 <wumpus> here it looks like LIBS = $(SUBLIBS) -L/usr/lib -lssl -lcrypto -ldb_cxx -lminiupnpc -lboost_system -lboost_filesystem...
1179 2011-09-21 20:31:53 <EskimoBob> wumpus: looks OK in bitcoin-qt.pro
1180 2011-09-21 20:32:03 <wumpus> try re-running qmake
1181 2011-09-21 20:32:22 <wumpus> you are on linux right?
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1183 2011-09-21 20:33:02 <EskimoBob> yes
1184 2011-09-21 20:33:49 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1185 2011-09-21 20:33:57 <wumpus> ok, and after rerunning qmake the makefile is still messed up?
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1190 2011-09-21 20:50:46 <EskimoBob> wumpus: sorry, I was afk for a moment . Makefile looks fine to me
1191 2011-09-21 20:51:13 <EskimoBob> is it possible, that bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild has errors ?
1192 2011-09-21 20:51:43 <wumpus> I guess so
1193 2011-09-21 20:51:54 <EskimoBob> http://pastebin.com/s1cRq2p3
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1195 2011-09-21 20:51:58 <wumpus> could be it does a find/replace :p
1196 2011-09-21 20:52:23 <wumpus> and does it wrongly
1197 2011-09-21 20:52:24 <wumpus> dunno
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1200 2011-09-21 20:57:53 <wumpus> yes it seems to do some sed thing...
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1219 2011-09-21 21:35:51 <tcatm> I think bitcoins' "load block index" could be improved. It shouldn't take > 30s when my simple python script can re-construct the index from blk0001.dat within 9 seconds (without verifying transactions)
1220 2011-09-21 21:36:37 <Disposition> compare said script with bitcoin codebase and find bottle neck?
1221 2011-09-21 21:37:14 <tcatm> well, the bitcoin codebase already lodas the pre-build index
1222 2011-09-21 21:37:18 <tcatm> loads*
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1252 2011-09-21 22:37:32 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r027d3a0 / wscript : Better error message if pkg-config is missing. - http://git.io/9y2fjw
1253 2011-09-21 22:37:32 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r94bad08 / README.md : Various README updates, fixes and improvements. - http://git.io/vLMQLw
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1264 2011-09-21 22:47:57 <makomk> gmaxwell: bitcoin may be "pure" in the sense that it can't be used as anything except money, but it requires a vast amount of "impure" resources that could be used for other things to keep it running...
1265 2011-09-21 22:49:01 <gmaxwell> makomk: so does everything else. Or do you think that magical farries handle, print, count, and transport dollar bills?
1266 2011-09-21 22:50:20 <makomk> True, but right now the costs are quite large compared to dollar bills...
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1268 2011-09-21 22:51:31 <imsaguy> really?
1269 2011-09-21 22:51:37 <imsaguy> transporting USD are cheap?
1270 2011-09-21 22:51:40 <imsaguy> is*
1271 2011-09-21 22:51:46 <imsaguy> how about securing USD?
1272 2011-09-21 22:52:34 <makomk> imsaguy: I'm not sure how the cost of securing USD compares to the cost of securing Bitcoins; no-one's achieved the latter yet.
1273 2011-09-21 22:53:25 <sipa> how do you mean?
1274 2011-09-21 22:54:28 <makomk> Is there a major Bitcoin service that hasn't been robbed and had major security holes?
1275 2011-09-21 22:54:41 <imsaguy> thats like saying banks get robbed
1276 2011-09-21 22:54:48 <imsaguy> but securing the USD itself
1277 2011-09-21 22:54:54 <imsaguy> all the technology and research that goes into it
1278 2011-09-21 22:54:56 <donpdonp> makomk: lolz. hacking makes the exchange stronger!
1279 2011-09-21 22:55:46 <makomk> imsaguy: is amortized over all the dollars in circulation.
1280 2011-09-21 22:56:01 <sipa> makomk: i think storing bitcoins safely is almost trivial
1281 2011-09-21 22:56:25 <sipa> the problem is providing safe webservices to interact with it
1282 2011-09-21 22:57:07 <sipa> but really, send you coins to an address generated with an offline computer, encrypt the wallet with a strong password, and backup it on a few places
1283 2011-09-21 22:57:32 <sipa> there are few safer stores of value around (assuming - and that's a big if of course - bitcoin retains it value)
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1288 2011-09-21 23:06:49 <luke-jr> makomk: Bitcoin costs a lot less resources to "run" than USD
1289 2011-09-21 23:07:49 <sipa> bitcoin's economy is also massively smaller, so it is hard to compare
1290 2011-09-21 23:08:27 <gmaxwell> makomk: it's easy to find examples of ecommerce sites that have been robbed, thats the same either way.
1291 2011-09-21 23:09:37 tyn has joined
1292 2011-09-21 23:09:58 <gmaxwell> The anti-counterfeiting costs for paper money are enormous. Bitcoin's core security costs (e.g. the blockchain difficulty, not the computer security stuff which is the same for everything) are relatively high when bitcoin is small but scale better.
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1294 2011-09-21 23:12:35 <luke-jr> probably fair to say Bitcoin's current security level is acceptable for a global scale
1295 2011-09-21 23:12:54 <luke-jr> unless maybe a big government were to attack it directly
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1297 2011-09-21 23:16:08 <gmaxwell> I think so too. Thats what I mean by scales better. The whole system needs to be strong enough but thats it. It's O(1)ish, while paper money has a significant O(N) component (enforcement and physical anti-counterfeiting measures)â¦
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1304 2011-09-21 23:33:53 <midnightmagic> it is not acceptable for a global scale, unless you are defining "global scale" as its current use.
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1306 2011-09-21 23:36:05 <luke-jr> actually, I suppose it's an arms race
1307 2011-09-21 23:36:26 <luke-jr> for both Bitcoin (hashpower) and USD (defeating anti-counterfieting)
1308 2011-09-21 23:36:41 <luke-jr> USD has "merely" progressed further
1309 2011-09-21 23:38:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: The fundimental difference is that all hashpower put into bitcoin increases global security. Only the tech in dollars has conservation and thats only R&D conservation, special inks/special printing/etc cost per bill and feet on the street doing enforcement in florida doesn't prevent counterfieting in califonia.
1310 2011-09-21 23:38:48 <luke-jr> hm
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1316 2011-09-21 23:42:19 <midnightmagic> it's only increased its security if you assume the security of the software contributing to the blockchain is not an actual risk.
1317 2011-09-21 23:43:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: true, but effort to improve that is also well conserved.
1318 2011-09-21 23:44:15 <midnightmagic> imo, full-on high-level software engineering practices should probably be adopted the moment developer resources allow for it. I just don't think enough resources are being contributed to the development effort..
1319 2011-09-21 23:44:42 <Namegduf> Ultimately the only safety IMO is through heterogenous systems
1320 2011-09-21 23:44:45 <gmaxwell> Not perfectly, because hopefully people run software from multiple sources.... But it's still not the kind of effort fragmentation that you have with paper-money anti-counterfieting.
1321 2011-09-21 23:44:47 <midnightmagic> .. to make it feasible to put full unit-testing, continuous integration, issue-tracking, and design phases..
1322 2011-09-21 23:45:21 <gmaxwell> Sure, formal methods too.
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1324 2011-09-21 23:46:45 <midnightmagic> I can see Gavin making inroads on it, but.. it's a terrible task to tack it on after the fact to an already-existing project. I don't envy him!
1325 2011-09-21 23:46:59 <gmaxwell> It's still strongly conserved resources expenditures. One issue is that a lot of bitcoin operators are pretending that this is not an immature system.
1326 2011-09-21 23:47:37 <midnightmagic> yes, there's way too much PR going on about it. I can see Gavin's statements months ago in my head clear as day, "This is experimental software," and so on.
1327 2011-09-21 23:48:45 <gmaxwell> We should probably try courting academics doing work on formal methods and try to convince them to work on bitcoin. ... academics in other areas have had no luck getting grants for work on bitcoin, but the formals methods stuff may have better luck.
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1329 2011-09-21 23:49:03 <midnightmagic> any corporate software engineers could do it too.
1330 2011-09-21 23:49:32 <genjix> do what?
1331 2011-09-21 23:49:49 <midnightmagic> bring formal methods to the development of bitcoin.
1332 2011-09-21 23:50:15 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rf06a6f3e50fe / (5 files in 4 dirs): Delete branch method - only took a week to get right :/
1333 2011-09-21 23:50:38 <gmaxwell> Well, industrial practices generally suck except in a few specific domains.
1334 2011-09-21 23:50:41 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Request_for_Comments
1335 2011-09-21 23:50:41 tyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1336 2011-09-21 23:50:49 <genjix> gmaxwell: au contraire!
1337 2011-09-21 23:50:49 <midnightmagic> unit tests, continuous integration, tofu-scale development lines, proper issue tracking, and design phase documentation.
1338 2011-09-21 23:50:56 <genjix> academic methods suck
1339 2011-09-21 23:51:12 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you can get people that work on embedded controllers for flight criticial machines and life support equipment to work on bitcoin you might actually make some major improvements.
1340 2011-09-21 23:51:13 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1341 2011-09-21 23:51:18 <genjix> seen some of the spaghetti patchwork from academia?
1342 2011-09-21 23:51:25 <midnightmagic> genjix: nah, software engineers are being properly trained now who could do all this.
1343 2011-09-21 23:51:34 <gmaxwell> But the defect density in most commercial software would leave us dead if bitcoin was that bad.
1344 2011-09-21 23:51:54 <gmaxwell> I see both genjix and midnightmagic don't actually know what I'm talking about when I said formal methods.
1345 2011-09-21 23:52:04 <midnightmagic> That IMO is an indication of the current quality of seng practices.. that it isn't worse than that considering the economic pressures on a corporate team.
1346 2011-09-21 23:52:16 <gmaxwell> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Formal_methods
1347 2011-09-21 23:52:40 <midnightmagic> you're talking provably-correct software.
1348 2011-09-21 23:52:56 <midnightmagic> I'm talking formal seng methods..
1349 2011-09-21 23:53:11 TuxBlackEdo has joined
1350 2011-09-21 23:53:17 <TuxBlackEdo> Does anyone have some TBCs?
1351 2011-09-21 23:53:18 nhodges has joined
1352 2011-09-21 23:53:23 <gmaxwell> (which are not widely used in industry except in a few areas, e.g. aeronautics and of course, HDL 'software' intended for production)
1353 2011-09-21 23:53:24 <midnightmagic> time-base-correctors?
1354 2011-09-21 23:53:25 nhodges has quit (Excess Flood)
1355 2011-09-21 23:53:29 <genjix> gmaxwell: we're making an opensource project (think svn, apache, linux, firefox...)
1356 2011-09-21 23:53:39 <TuxBlackEdo> well.. i was hoping test net bitcoins
1357 2011-09-21 23:53:51 nhodges has joined
1358 2011-09-21 23:54:19 genjix has left ()
1359 2011-09-21 23:54:41 <gmaxwell> genjix: those are horrible comparison points, severe bugs in those platforms don't have the same consequence that bugs in bitcoin could have.
1360 2011-09-21 23:55:03 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin's risk factors are a superset of those.
1361 2011-09-21 23:55:16 <midnightmagic> formal methods as you describe them are uneconomic. :)
1362 2011-09-21 23:56:05 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: indeed, they're justified in some contexts, for example in bitcoin at least for the software doing blockchain validation.
1363 2011-09-21 23:57:02 <midnightmagic> :-)
1364 2011-09-21 23:58:28 <TuxBlackEdo> nobody has testnet bitcoins....?
1365 2011-09-21 23:58:43 <midnightmagic> I have a bunch of them but I'm not running a testnet btc instance right now so I can't give any to you.
1366 2011-09-21 23:58:55 <TuxBlackEdo> oh ok nvm
1367 2011-09-21 23:59:06 <midnightmagic> I have a pile of namecoin testnet coins you can have.