1 2011-09-22 00:00:22 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately the blockchain validation is so complicated that I don't think it can be validated except by proving it in coq and then using extraction to generate the software. Not really something we'd want in the main client though... but someone could be running such a thing as an alert service.
   2 2011-09-22 00:00:49 <midnightmagic> coq?
   3 2011-09-22 00:01:08 <gmaxwell> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Coq
   4 2011-09-22 00:01:09 <vsrinivas> gmaxwell: that bad?
   5 2011-09-22 00:02:43 <gmaxwell> Well, maybe I just suck, but I've had bad luck e.g. proving a range coder correct from C code. Simple things are simple, but hard things get really hard to prove from procedural code very fast.
   6 2011-09-22 00:03:13 <midnightmagic> hrm..
   7 2011-09-22 00:03:20 <midnightmagic> well let's get on it! :-) lol
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   9 2011-09-22 00:05:03 <gmaxwell> (but people have written formally proven C compilers with coq+extraction, so thats evidence that complicated systems can be done that way)
  10 2011-09-22 00:06:53 <copumpkin> I love doing that
  11 2011-09-22 00:07:04 <copumpkin> if you have questions about how it works, I'd be happy to evangelize
  12 2011-09-22 00:07:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: roconnor had blockchain validation written in haskell
  13 2011-09-22 00:07:57 <midnightmagic> i love haskell
  14 2011-09-22 00:08:02 <copumpkin> high five
  15 2011-09-22 00:08:07 <midnightmagic> \o !
  16 2011-09-22 00:08:27 <sipa> that's already a much better candidate for proving
  17 2011-09-22 00:08:27 <sipa> !hi65
  18 2011-09-22 00:08:32 <copumpkin> :)
  19 2011-09-22 00:08:39 <sipa> eh
  20 2011-09-22 00:08:44 <sipa> !hi5
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  23 2011-09-22 00:11:03 <copumpkin> I'd imagine that most of the scary sort of bugs would be eliminated by using haskell for the client
  24 2011-09-22 00:11:14 <copumpkin> not sure what kinds of things we'd want to prove about the code beyond that
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  36 2011-09-22 00:27:14 <doublec> Something like ATS could allow you to slowly move parts of the code into something that has proof checks
  37 2011-09-22 00:27:23 <doublec> since it's fairly easy to mix C and ATS code
  38 2011-09-22 00:27:59 * doublec couldn't resist providing an alternative to the haskell love
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  40 2011-09-22 00:31:25 <copumpkin> oh fuck haskell
  41 2011-09-22 00:31:31 <copumpkin> agda 4eva
  42 2011-09-22 00:31:33 <copumpkin> or as some say
  43 2011-09-22 00:31:36 <copumpkin> agda SSSSZ eva
  44 2011-09-22 00:32:16 <doublec> hehe
  45 2011-09-22 00:32:50 <copumpkin> but if you mix C code into your ATS, you can't really be very sure that you're free of buffer overflows and the like, right?
  46 2011-09-22 00:33:03 <copumpkin> it's not going to go and run a static analysis pass over your C is it? :P
  47 2011-09-22 00:34:38 <doublec> right, it's a gradual process of ATS-ifying things
  48 2011-09-22 00:34:55 <doublec> but you do provide annotations to C functions so you can be sure you're not passing bad data
  49 2011-09-22 00:35:13 <doublec> and that you don't use pointers returned by the C function incorrectly, etc
  50 2011-09-22 00:35:21 <gmaxwell> Right, you can make promises about the C code, and then make sure they're true with asserts.
  51 2011-09-22 00:35:27 <doublec> yes
  52 2011-09-22 00:36:12 <doublec> you can just write the core important stuff in ATS (verification, coin handling, etc)
  53 2011-09-22 00:36:15 <doublec> and call that code from C++
  54 2011-09-22 00:36:50 <copumpkin> even then, you're still relying on coding convention to avoid buffer overflows and bad memory accesses
  55 2011-09-22 00:36:55 <copumpkin> in the calling code
  56 2011-09-22 00:37:13 <cjdelisle> IMO you can write good C(++) where it's pretty easy to prove to yourself that any given function is going to behave itself
  57 2011-09-22 00:37:31 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: it's easy to fool yourself that its correct when its not.
  58 2011-09-22 00:37:52 <doublec> especially when using 3rd party libraries
  59 2011-09-22 00:38:04 <cjdelisle> 3rd party libraries lead to trouble
  60 2011-09-22 00:38:15 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: E.g. & and && do different things but they look very similar when you examine the code. Non-automated 'proving' is demonstrability inadequate.
  61 2011-09-22 00:38:16 <doublec> with poorly documented memory ownership requirements
  62 2011-09-22 00:39:16 <diki> ;;google me gusta
  63 2011-09-22 00:39:16 <gribble> Me Gusta | Know Your Meme: <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/me-gusta>; Me Gusta Song - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxdDIwVWrxI>; Me Gusta Comic .com: <http://megustacomic.com/>
  64 2011-09-22 00:40:06 <cjdelisle> Depends on the functions, if they are spaghetti code then you can't really say anything about them
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  66 2011-09-22 00:40:57 <cjdelisle> serialize.h is really clever but I can't honestly say anything about it. There is so much template tomfoolery there that I just have to say "it seems to work because it hasn't segfaulted"
  67 2011-09-22 00:43:38 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: You're seriously overestimating everyone's skill if you think code has to be tricky to be hard to be sure of it. Writing completely correct software is a superhuman task.
  68 2011-09-22 00:44:46 <cjdelisle> how would you propose to make the code safe?
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  70 2011-09-22 00:45:11 <b4epoche_> years of testing
  71 2011-09-22 00:45:44 <cjdelisle> years of testing -> years with no new patches -> dead project
  72 2011-09-22 00:47:04 <b4epoche_> that's why you make things moduler
  73 2011-09-22 00:47:26 <cjdelisle> sandboxes are fun
  74 2011-09-22 00:47:37 * cjdelisle loves playin in the sandbox
  75 2011-09-22 00:48:07 <b4epoche_> except when the cats start shitting in them
  76 2011-09-22 00:48:26 <imsaguy> thats why you cover you sandbox
  77 2011-09-22 00:48:29 <imsaguy> no one likes a dirty box
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  79 2011-09-22 00:50:28 * b4epoche_ had a 400 sq ft sandbox that was hard to cover
  80 2011-09-22 00:50:36 <imsaguy> thats a big box
  81 2011-09-22 00:50:48 <b4epoche_> indeed, lots of fun
  82 2011-09-22 00:51:08 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: Formal methods for critical code. Plus better (incl. automated tests) testing of everything else.
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  85 2011-09-22 01:08:31 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: while(1);  <--- completely correct
  86 2011-09-22 01:12:36 <luke-jr> cjdelisle: that's what stable branches are for
  87 2011-09-22 01:12:47 <copumpkin> k9quaint: no
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  89 2011-09-22 01:14:17 <luke-jr> not "dead project", but "main project development takes place over there -------->"
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  98 2011-09-22 01:19:27 <copumpkin> k9quaint: if you insist on proving imperative programs with loops in them, you'd prove correctness according to your hoare stuff, and would also have to prove termination of your loops
  99 2011-09-22 01:19:27 <copumpkin> in something like agda or coq, you'd want to use structural or well-founded recursion
 100 2011-09-22 01:19:36 <copumpkin> so they wouldn't let you write infinite loops in the first place
 101 2011-09-22 01:19:53 <copumpkin> well, under certain conditions they would, actually
 102 2011-09-22 01:20:00 <copumpkin> but they're "correct" infinite loops
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 104 2011-09-22 01:28:10 <luke-jr> I never understood why someone hasn't written an emulator that tests every possible variation of a program
 105 2011-09-22 01:28:29 <luke-jr> sure, you can't have a human review the results for correctness, but you can at least detect segfaults and crap
 106 2011-09-22 01:28:53 <copumpkin> the space of inputs to a program grows very quickly for most programs
 107 2011-09-22 01:29:04 <copumpkin> it's usually easier to just rule out classes of inputs at a time by static reasoning
 108 2011-09-22 01:29:12 <copumpkin> there's also the llvm symbolic evaluator, though
 109 2011-09-22 01:29:21 <copumpkin> I think that helps with what you're saying (but I haven't used it)
 110 2011-09-22 01:29:22 <luke-jr> copumpkin: a smart emulator could classify
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 112 2011-09-22 01:30:48 <b4epoche_> copumpkin:  analyzing code with llvm analyzer is nice
 113 2011-09-22 01:30:59 <copumpkin> oh yeah, there's also that
 114 2011-09-22 01:31:09 <copumpkin> but that falls more into the static analysis and rule out classes of bad stuff
 115 2011-09-22 01:31:35 <b4epoche_> oh, I didn't realize the symbolic evaluator was something different
 116 2011-09-22 01:31:52 <luke-jr> LLVM KLEE does indeed seem to be what I envisioned
 117 2011-09-22 01:32:49 <copumpkin> yeah, that was it
 118 2011-09-22 01:33:23 <k9quaint> copumpkin: I use the heat death of the universe to prove that my program terminates
 119 2011-09-22 01:33:29 <luke-jr> "We also used KLEE as a bug finding tool, applying it to 452 applications (over 430K total lines of code), where it found 56 serious bugs, including three in COREUTILS that had been missed for over 15 years."
 120 2011-09-22 01:33:30 <copumpkin> lol
 121 2011-09-22 01:33:32 <luke-jr> awesome
 122 2011-09-22 01:33:47 <copumpkin> the llvm project is good
 123 2011-09-22 01:33:55 <luke-jr> I wonder if it can work on Perl
 124 2011-09-22 01:34:03 <b4epoche_> or php
 125 2011-09-22 01:34:06 <luke-jr> I have extremely rare crashes in a Perl server of mine
 126 2011-09-22 01:34:06 <copumpkin> I doubt it, unless you have perl with an llvm backend
 127 2011-09-22 01:34:16 <luke-jr> copumpkin: LLVM can't handle x86 code?
 128 2011-09-22 01:34:28 <copumpkin> oh, it can, but things get compiled through it
 129 2011-09-22 01:34:35 <copumpkin> or it has its own virtual machine for bytecode
 130 2011-09-22 01:34:38 <copumpkin> (bitcode?)
 131 2011-09-22 01:34:54 <copumpkin> so you need something sending code to/through llvm
 132 2011-09-22 01:35:02 <copumpkin> it won't work with a precompiled binary
 133 2011-09-22 01:35:21 <luke-jr> why not>
 134 2011-09-22 01:35:38 <copumpkin> too much lost information after compiling
 135 2011-09-22 01:35:47 <copumpkin> disassembly isn't an exact science :P
 136 2011-09-22 01:35:51 <luke-jr> ,,,
 137 2011-09-22 01:35:51 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
 138 2011-09-22 01:35:54 <luke-jr> it doesn't have to disassemble
 139 2011-09-22 01:35:56 <luke-jr> just execute
 140 2011-09-22 01:36:14 <copumpkin> I suppose it could, but I don't think it works that way
 141 2011-09-22 01:36:43 <luke-jr> shrug
 142 2011-09-22 01:36:46 <luke-jr> Perl is C, just like coreutils
 143 2011-09-22 01:36:51 <luke-jr> if it can test coreutils, it can test Perl
 144 2011-09-22 01:37:06 <copumpkin> give it a go then :)
 145 2011-09-22 01:39:41 <luke-jr> the hard part will probably be that I use Inline::C ;)
 146 2011-09-22 01:41:21 <copumpkin> lol
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 193 2011-09-22 04:01:35 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: normally you'd expect to prove e.g. that functions always return (and, in fact, that they return values in the expected ranges)
 194 2011-09-22 04:03:18 <k9quaint> it is an algorithm designed to generate IRC irony until the heat death of the universe, I think it succeeds at that ;)
 195 2011-09-22 04:04:11 <gmaxwell> k9quaint: then you'd have to explicity state that in the code.
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 197 2011-09-22 04:05:19 <doublec> proving irony could be tough
 198 2011-09-22 04:05:22 <k9quaint> why don't we bet some solidcoin on the outcome ;)
 199 2011-09-22 04:05:34 <k9quaint> why settle for only one level of irony?
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 290 2011-09-22 06:55:43 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * re7eb154743cb / (6 files in 3 dirs): Mark checked blocks as verified.
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 329 2011-09-22 07:57:08 <npx> hey guys, i realize this might seem a little silly, but is there some sort of test/scaffold environment that can be used to develop bitcoin apps?
 330 2011-09-22 07:57:23 <npx> nevermind
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 340 2011-09-22 08:09:58 copumpkin is now known as DrDerpa
 341 2011-09-22 08:11:58 <AnnihilaT> hmmm
 342 2011-09-22 08:12:09 <AnnihilaT> did the block chain get spammed or something ?
 343 2011-09-22 08:12:34 <AnnihilaT> seems like ~/.bitcoin/ suddenly has grown alot
 344 2011-09-22 08:12:38 <AnnihilaT> over the last day or two
 345 2011-09-22 08:13:02 <luke-jr> AnnihilaT: too many spam-friendly pools ;p
 346 2011-09-22 08:13:18 <luke-jr> they need to adopt stricter fee requirements
 347 2011-09-22 08:15:41 DrDerpa is now known as copumpkin
 348 2011-09-22 08:16:34 <AnnihilaT> guess that includes me
 349 2011-09-22 08:16:37 Burgundy has joined
 350 2011-09-22 08:16:37 <AnnihilaT> :D
 351 2011-09-22 08:16:51 <AnnihilaT> is that a modification to the daemon src ?
 352 2011-09-22 08:17:04 <AnnihilaT> i really havent looked into that yet
 353 2011-09-22 08:17:12 <AnnihilaT> it might be time to do so
 354 2011-09-22 08:18:50 <sipa> i hope to start some discussion soon about making the fee policy more flexible
 355 2011-09-22 08:19:44 <gjs278> yeah my .bitcoin folder is getting huge now
 356 2011-09-22 08:19:55 <sipa> that's inevitable, i'm afraid
 357 2011-09-22 08:20:00 <AnnihilaT> but currently if you want to change your own policy it needs to be hardcoded ?
 358 2011-09-22 08:20:06 <sipa> yes
 359 2011-09-22 08:20:11 <AnnihilaT> which file ?
 360 2011-09-22 08:20:38 <AnnihilaT> does myuch need changed or just a var somewhere?
 361 2011-09-22 08:20:50 <AnnihilaT> some int ?
 362 2011-09-22 08:21:12 <sipa> depends what you want to change
 363 2011-09-22 08:21:29 <AnnihilaT> i seem to have picked up an extra 1GB tho in the last 2 days
 364 2011-09-22 08:21:30 <sipa> but i wouldn't encourage you to do so without consulting others
 365 2011-09-22 08:21:35 <sipa> wait, what?
 366 2011-09-22 08:21:54 <sipa> which files are how large for you?
 367 2011-09-22 08:22:24 <shadders> extraNonce is part of the main client now isn't it?
 368 2011-09-22 08:22:35 <sipa> it has always been
 369 2011-09-22 08:22:43 <shadders> methinks namecoin is missing it...
 370 2011-09-22 08:22:47 <sipa> i doubt that
 371 2011-09-22 08:22:49 <AnnihilaT> oh wait
 372 2011-09-22 08:22:55 <AnnihilaT> mught have been exageration
 373 2011-09-22 08:22:57 <AnnihilaT> but
 374 2011-09-22 08:22:58 <AnnihilaT> looks
 375 2011-09-22 08:23:01 <AnnihilaT> -s
 376 2011-09-22 08:23:13 <AnnihilaT> # du -hsc .bitcoin/
 377 2011-09-22 08:23:13 <AnnihilaT> 1.3G .bitcoin/
 378 2011-09-22 08:23:13 <AnnihilaT> 1.3G total
 379 2011-09-22 08:23:20 <shadders> I'm seeing a ton of duplicate works from a namecoind
 380 2011-09-22 08:23:22 <sipa> how much of that is in database ?
 381 2011-09-22 08:23:27 <sipa> shadders: ?
 382 2011-09-22 08:23:28 <AnnihilaT> quite sure it was half that
 383 2011-09-22 08:23:32 <AnnihilaT> yesterday
 384 2011-09-22 08:23:34 <AnnihilaT> db is
 385 2011-09-22 08:23:41 <AnnihilaT> 393M ./database
 386 2011-09-22 08:23:52 <AnnihilaT> 595M ./blk0001.dat
 387 2011-09-22 08:23:52 <AnnihilaT> 250M ./blkindex.dat
 388 2011-09-22 08:23:52 <AnnihilaT> 393M ./database
 389 2011-09-22 08:24:11 <AnnihilaT> looks normal ?
 390 2011-09-22 08:24:14 <sipa> yes
 391 2011-09-22 08:24:18 <shadders> not mine... someone using psj... I just got some logs from them at one point they have a duplicate rate over 90%.... That can't happen with extranonce
 392 2011-09-22 08:24:47 <sipa> ah, don't know anything about namecoin's tweaks
 393 2011-09-22 08:26:00 <shadders> I remember an older version of bitcoind was doing that as well when I first started building psj... might have been the windows version, 0.3.22 or 23...
 394 2011-09-22 08:26:23 <sipa> what is psj?
 395 2011-09-22 08:26:34 <shadders> poolserverj... pushpool alternative
 396 2011-09-22 08:26:36 <AnnihilaT> poolserverj
 397 2011-09-22 08:26:39 <sipa> ah, i see
 398 2011-09-22 08:26:40 <AnnihilaT> java
 399 2011-09-22 08:26:44 <sipa> i assumed so :)
 400 2011-09-22 08:27:14 <sipa> there was a bug in bitcoind that caused duplicate work, up until recently, iirc
 401 2011-09-22 08:27:22 <sipa> but not to that extent
 402 2011-09-22 08:27:26 <sipa> afaik
 403 2011-09-22 08:27:33 <AnnihilaT> dupe work ?
 404 2011-09-22 08:27:49 <AnnihilaT> as in giving out identical work to getwork() calls?
 405 2011-09-22 08:27:51 <shadders> it varied.. sometimes you'd get near all unique sometimes incredibly high dupe rates...
 406 2011-09-22 08:28:33 <shadders> hmmm... whatever patch fixed it mustn't have made it into namecoin then... It behaving the same way I remember bitcoin used...
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 408 2011-09-22 08:28:49 <AnnihilaT> how recently was this sipa?
 409 2011-09-22 08:29:01 <AnnihilaT> bug exists in 0.3.24 ?
 410 2011-09-22 08:29:53 <sipa> yes
 411 2011-09-22 08:30:09 <AnnihilaT> hmm
 412 2011-09-22 08:30:20 <sipa> let me have a look
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 416 2011-09-22 08:34:03 <npx> 1.3g?
 417 2011-09-22 08:34:07 <npx> [alex@amnesiac ~]$ du -sh .bitcoin/
 418 2011-09-22 08:34:07 <npx> 2.5G    .bitcoin/
 419 2011-09-22 08:35:04 <sipa> if your bitcoind has been running for longer, the db log files may be larger
 420 2011-09-22 08:35:46 <npx> this installation is ~8hrs old, it was 2+g by the time i got to 140,000 blocks
 421 2011-09-22 08:36:02 <sipa> ah, if it has been downloading a lot, then too
 422 2011-09-22 08:36:13 <sipa> if you restart it, it'll clean up the logs
 423 2011-09-22 08:36:22 <sipa> ... it should do so periodically anyway
 424 2011-09-22 08:37:31 <npx> it's really no problem on my end, just shared because i thought it might be interesting to some of you
 425 2011-09-22 08:37:47 <npx> restarted and it's 860M now
 426 2011-09-22 08:38:15 <sipa> yes, we're aware of the problem
 427 2011-09-22 08:38:27 <sipa> i noticed it myself too
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 457 2011-09-22 10:39:44 <Joric> just tried bitcoinj, network discovery is weird
 458 2011-09-22 10:40:49 <Joric> looks like 90% of clients are firewalled why they even post their ip
 459 2011-09-22 10:42:19 <Joric> maybe it's worth to add port checking via stun or something
 460 2011-09-22 10:42:36 erle- has joined
 461 2011-09-22 10:44:48 <Joric> ~45% refused ~45% timed out, bootstrapping is terribly slow
 462 2011-09-22 10:45:36 <sipa> doesn't it use DNS seeding?
 463 2011-09-22 10:45:47 <Joric> it does
 464 2011-09-22 10:46:02 <Joric> 39 peers from dns, 2850 from irc
 465 2011-09-22 10:46:53 <Graet> shadders   ^^
 466 2011-09-22 10:46:57 <Joric> dunno why 39
 467 2011-09-22 10:47:31 <Joric> probably it's hardcoded
 468 2011-09-22 10:47:33 <shadders> huh?
 469 2011-09-22 10:47:53 <Graet> oops
 470 2011-09-22 10:48:15 <Graet> boicoind not poolserv soz
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 472 2011-09-22 10:48:47 <shadders> defaultHosts = new String[] {
 473 2011-09-22 10:48:48 <shadders>             "dnsseed.bluematt.me",      // Auto generated
 474 2011-09-22 10:48:48 <shadders>             "bitseed.xf2.org",          // Static
 475 2011-09-22 10:48:48 <shadders>             "bitseed.bitcoin.org.uk"    // Static
 476 2011-09-22 10:48:48 <shadders>     }
 477 2011-09-22 10:48:59 <shadders> dns seed hosts bitcoinj uses
 478 2011-09-22 10:49:27 <shadders> yes there's an awful lot of non-listening hosts in IRC... The trouble is they are listening but don't know they're firewalled...
 479 2011-09-22 10:49:31 <Joric> looks like it's one round, 13 hosts from each seed
 480 2011-09-22 10:50:11 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Clever quit message!)
 481 2011-09-22 10:50:39 <shadders> there's also 40 * 8 default hosts which are hard coded...
 482 2011-09-22 10:50:57 <shadders> but probably only used if IRC is down and not enough from dns
 483 2011-09-22 10:51:31 <shadders> Joric: the same thing happens with bitcoind... it's just invisible...
 484 2011-09-22 10:52:21 <shadders> once it gets one good connection the addr exchanges provid a much more reliable list
 485 2011-09-22 10:53:12 <Joric> there are stun servers exactly for that
 486 2011-09-22 10:53:19 <Joric> i wrote a stun client once http://pastebin.com/ew3kbbbE
 487 2011-09-22 10:53:38 <Joric> of course there are reference implementations
 488 2011-09-22 10:54:21 <Joric> though it would make the network slightly even more centralized than now :)
 489 2011-09-22 10:55:59 <Joric> if clients would use stun server to determine type of nat and publish their ip only if they are able to listen it would make bootstrapping a lot faster
 490 2011-09-22 10:56:17 <shadders> I'm build a hub node proxy that sits in front of a daemon and handles thousands of connections... should improve things... it advertises itself like a cheap hooker
 491 2011-09-22 10:57:17 SomeoneWeird has joined
 492 2011-09-22 10:58:46 <Joric> do clients send a list of 'good nodes' to each other ? i don't quite remember
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 494 2011-09-22 11:00:24 <Joric> don't like what i see in logs, got 2850 peers from irc discovery, can't connect to anyone
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 518 2011-09-22 11:27:56 <acrophobia_> hello. i was just discussing on #bitcoin a possible attack vector for zero-confirm transactions, they suggested i inquire here
 519 2011-09-22 11:29:00 <acrophobia_> basically, if you have a mining pool owning (say) 5% of the network, does that mean you can actually divert 5% of all zero-confirm transaction back to yourself?
 520 2011-09-22 11:29:39 <acrophobia_> so like suppose (as the owner of the pool), i go to some shop, buy my t-shirt (accepted with zero-confirm) then instruct my pool to ignore this transaction and instead deliver the coins to a 2nd account
 521 2011-09-22 11:29:59 <cacheson> acrophobia_: yes, you'd have a 5% chance of succeeding
 522 2011-09-22 11:30:34 <acrophobia_> now i think this attack can be done i parallel..i could have all my friends do the same thing. if they go out to the shops to buy something, then if they use my (hypothetical) specialized client that connects to my dark pool, they have a 5% chance of getting the product for free
 523 2011-09-22 11:30:55 <cacheson> yep
 524 2011-09-22 11:31:15 <cacheson> but 5% of the network is a big investment for facilitating petty theft
 525 2011-09-22 11:31:25 dvide has joined
 526 2011-09-22 11:31:36 <cacheson> it's up to merchants to decide if the risk is worth accepting zero-confirmation transactions
 527 2011-09-22 11:32:09 <acrophobia_> cacheson: perhaps. but remember that could just be an alternative revenue source for a pool. they already make money from mining, this just gives them extra profits
 528 2011-09-22 11:33:31 <cacheson> acrophobia_: at 5% of the network, you're making 360 BTC per day
 529 2011-09-22 11:33:42 <cacheson> stealing a few shirts is a drop in the bucket
 530 2011-09-22 11:34:00 <acrophobia_> cacheson: the catch is that if the pool actually ploughs the proceeds from the "discount scheme" back into their mining, then you get a feedback loop. bigger discounts => bigger pool => bigger discounts
 531 2011-09-22 11:34:23 <cacheson> um, no
 532 2011-09-22 11:34:46 <acrophobia_> no?
 533 2011-09-22 11:35:03 <cacheson> especially considering that it'd be obvious that the pool is doing the double-spends
 534 2011-09-22 11:35:53 <acrophobia_> how would it be obvious? (not saying it isn't, just wondering how you could tell and what you could do about it)
 535 2011-09-22 11:36:47 <sipa> huh, you can't forge transactions
 536 2011-09-22 11:36:50 <cacheson> the merchant would have an invalid signed transaction from the thief that conflicts with the transaction that was actually accepted by the pool
 537 2011-09-22 11:36:52 <sipa> even with 100% of the network power
 538 2011-09-22 11:36:58 <sipa> or am i missing something?
 539 2011-09-22 11:37:06 <cacheson> sipa: not about forging
 540 2011-09-22 11:37:28 <cacheson> sipa: acrophobia_ is talking about attacks on merchants that accept zero-confirmation transactions
 541 2011-09-22 11:37:31 <acrophobia_> cacheson: re: the "drop in the ocean" issue, this is very much dependent on bitcoin reward rate. in a couple of years time (we all hope) there will be far more transactions going through than bitcoins being mined.
 542 2011-09-22 11:40:30 <acrophobia_> cacheson: hm, but how would you know which is the correct transaction? perhaps the blockchain police (if there was one) could try to weed out blocks within which there is a transaction that clashes with a tx *outside* the blockchain, but that seems quite complicated to me
 543 2011-09-22 11:41:25 <ThomasV> don't move, this is the blockchain police
 544 2011-09-22 11:41:35 <cacheson> acrophobia_: the thief is the only one that could have made the transactions
 545 2011-09-22 11:41:36 <acrophobia_> ThomasV: ha
 546 2011-09-22 11:41:55 <ThomasV> put your hands up and gimme all your money
 547 2011-09-22 11:42:01 <cacheson> acrophobia_: it's obvious that it's a double-spend
 548 2011-09-22 11:42:24 <cacheson> acrophobia_: so if a certain pool shows a pattern of accepting lots of such transactions, well, there you go
 549 2011-09-22 11:42:43 <acrophobia_> cacheson: ok, i agree it's obvious (i mean it could be made obvious with some updated software). but what can be done to prevent it?
 550 2011-09-22 11:43:10 <cacheson> acrophobia_: you don't prevent it with software
 551 2011-09-22 11:43:25 <acrophobia_> cacheson: are pools 'identified' as such? what if it's more of a botnet style architecture?
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 553 2011-09-22 11:45:30 <acrophobia_> cacheson: yeah, that's what i'm thinking. i don't think there's really a software solution to this. i contend that merchants should be heavily dissuaded from accepting ZCT, given its potentially malign effects on the network
 554 2011-09-22 11:46:08 <cacheson> acrophobia_: it doesn't have bad effects on the network, just possibly on said merchants
 555 2011-09-22 11:46:17 <cacheson> acrophobia_: whether they want to accept the risk is up to them
 556 2011-09-22 11:46:47 <cacheson> I don't think the economics of the attack work out any better than regular shoplifting
 557 2011-09-22 11:47:35 <acrophobia_> cacheson: yes the direct problem of lost earnings is a problem for the merchant. but if this kind of scam becomes popular, which it will if bitcoin becomes popular, then these discount pools will just grow and grow due to the feedback loop
 558 2011-09-22 11:48:16 <cacheson> there's no feedback to speak of
 559 2011-09-22 11:48:21 <acrophobia_> cacheson: the economics of shoplifting are based on the probability of being caught. here you can't really get caught (presumably the hacked client would only allow a redirect *after* the person has left the building)
 560 2011-09-22 11:48:31 <cacheson> if you want to shoplift, you can do it without investing thousands of dollars on computer hardware
 561 2011-09-22 11:49:05 <acrophobia_> cacheson: no, here the shoiplifter doesn't spend thousands on hardware, he just downloads the hacked client onto his android
 562 2011-09-22 11:49:07 <sipa> merchants should eventually not be dealing with the blockchain itself
 563 2011-09-22 11:49:44 <cacheson> acrophobia_: in order to participate in your theoretical rogue mining pool, they need to contribute hash power
 564 2011-09-22 11:49:50 <sipa> they'll use a payment processor which provides them with insurance against double-spends or other failures of the block chain
 565 2011-09-22 11:51:20 <epscy> sipa: you argue that is speculative
 566 2011-09-22 11:51:24 <acrophobia_> cacheson: the shoplifters wouldn't participate in mining themselves, they would just do the shoplifting. they wouldn't have to know anything about GPUs or hashrate, they'd just dl the client as an app and go shopping. in fact, they might not even *know* they were shoplifting if the app represented itself as real.
 567 2011-09-22 11:52:01 <cacheson> acrophobia_: then why would the pool bother facilitating this attack for them?
 568 2011-09-22 11:53:12 <acrophobia_> cacheson: because the pool would take half of the profits (or whatever percentage makes sense, i'm not a crime-lord so i don't know what the payment structure is for this kind of thing ;) )
 569 2011-09-22 11:53:26 <cacheson> acrophobia_: clearly
 570 2011-09-22 11:53:42 <acrophobia_> cacheson: touché
 571 2011-09-22 11:58:39 <b4epoche_> there are clearly issues with POS bitcoin transactions that need to be fleshed out...
 572 2011-09-22 11:58:46 skeledrew1 has joined
 573 2011-09-22 11:59:20 Joric has joined
 574 2011-09-22 11:59:25 * sipa has trouble not reading "POS" as piece of shit
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 577 2011-09-22 11:59:40 <b4epoche_> basically, I see bitcoin as making it very easy 'pass bad checks'
 578 2011-09-22 11:59:49 <Graet> +1 sipa lmao
 579 2011-09-22 12:00:11 <sipa> b4epoche_: true
 580 2011-09-22 12:00:23 <b4epoche_> yea, I actually do double takes when others write "POS"
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 582 2011-09-22 12:01:01 <cacheson> b4epoche_: while it's *technically possible*, it's definitely not very easy if the merchant is doing things right on their end
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 584 2011-09-22 12:01:36 <b4epoche_> yea, but merchants are usually trying their best to make shopping convenient
 585 2011-09-22 12:02:20 <acrophobia_> think about the big picture. lets say bitcoin has the ambition to be used in 0.1% of transactions. in uk, vat is £83bn / year, so from a total revenue of £415bn, shop sales contribute £200bn / year. 0.1% of that is £200m per year. lets say 5% of these transactions are using the scam client (the state of the world today!) and the pool owner has 5% of the global hashrate. that's then a profit of around £1M per year
 586 2011-09-22 12:02:26 <b4epoche_> waiting 10 minutes for a confirm is not shopper friendly (and nobody start with the alternate blockchain with faster confirms)
 587 2011-09-22 12:03:07 <cacheson> b4epoche_: I mean that the point of sale system that they use needs to properly monitor the network for conflicting transactions being broadcast
 588 2011-09-22 12:03:10 <b4epoche_> acrophobia_:  you sure you don't need 5% of 5%
 589 2011-09-22 12:03:17 <acrophobia_> acrophobia_: and remember this would be a second income source for the pool owner. he's already getting paid to mine
 590 2011-09-22 12:03:27 <JFK911> i think the world would be a better place if everyone had to wait 10 minutes to spend money
 591 2011-09-22 12:03:42 * b4epoche_ agrees
 592 2011-09-22 12:03:43 <JFK911> an hour would be better
 593 2011-09-22 12:03:49 <acrophobia_> b4epoche_: yes, i did 5% of 5% (just didn't mention it). but do check that i didn't miss anything in my approxicalc
 594 2011-09-22 12:04:46 <b4epoche_> 0.5M pounds
 595 2011-09-22 12:06:01 <acrophobia_> ok. so based on these number, the scam pool gets £500k per year to build his rig even bigger. and of course as he gets bigger, his revenue increases as it's now "10% of 5%" rather than "5% of 5%"
 596 2011-09-22 12:06:28 <b4epoche_> what might happen is that when a customer comes in a merchant starts checking their balance
 597 2011-09-22 12:06:33 <acrophobia_> so the scam pool is growing at an exponential rate - eventually it will dominate
 598 2011-09-22 12:06:52 <b4epoche_> and no one will accept bitcoin
 599 2011-09-22 12:07:01 <acrophobia_> exactly
 600 2011-09-22 12:07:02 <b4epoche_> at time of purchase
 601 2011-09-22 12:07:18 <cacheson> acrophobia_: at 5% of the network, you're pulling in 131400 BTC per year
 602 2011-09-22 12:07:39 <acrophobia_> so actually the merchant might not care that he loses 10% (groupon discounts are far bigger), but it has a hugely detrimental effect on bitcoin
 603 2011-09-22 12:07:40 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 604 2011-09-22 12:07:48 <b4epoche_> but I just don't see bitcoin as a good replacement for CC's for POS
 605 2011-09-22 12:08:31 * b4epoche_ is off to work...
 606 2011-09-22 12:08:34 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 607 2011-09-22 12:08:57 <acrophobia_> b4epoche_: no, me neither. it needs another layer. my thesis is that bitcoin should not be promoted for such things, whatever the value of the underlying goods
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 609 2011-09-22 12:10:31 <cacheson> acrophobia_: not interested in arguing whether or not BTC should be used for retail shopping, but your scheme is pretty dumb
 610 2011-09-22 12:10:33 <acrophobia_> i guess what i'm saying is that it's not so much the merchants that should worry about ZCT, it's the bitcoin community that need to worry. as such, we should be very clear that it is a very bad idea to accept ZCT
 611 2011-09-22 12:11:04 wolfspraul has joined
 612 2011-09-22 12:11:39 <acrophobia_> ok, if it's dumb then it's dumb. anyway, thanks for your time!
 613 2011-09-22 12:12:19 <cacheson> someone pulls a double spend on you within 2 minutes after leaving your store.  pull up his picture from the security camera and send it to the police.  done
 614 2011-09-22 12:12:48 <acrophobia_> if anyone is interested, i wrote about this in my blog: http://newmeraire.blogspot.com/2011/09/bitcoin-discount-scheme.html
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 620 2011-09-22 12:29:47 <Joric> http://bitcoinwatch.com shows that hashrate distribution is not more owned by deepbit looks there's some anonymous miner
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 636 2011-09-22 13:09:50 <b4epoche> is there any way to check someone's btc balance from the block chain without their priv keys?
 637 2011-09-22 13:10:06 <b4epoche> I can't imagine there is but it would help for POS transactions
 638 2011-09-22 13:10:12 <cjdelisle> yes there is
 639 2011-09-22 13:10:25 <b4epoche> but obviously lead to less anonymity
 640 2011-09-22 13:10:27 <cjdelisle> blockexplorer has the functionality
 641 2011-09-22 13:10:41 <cjdelisle> 08:34 <@cjd> 18NHixaoQekQJ3y52aBGJJwgBWX9X3myYR
 642 2011-09-22 13:10:42 <cjdelisle> 08:34 <@bitbawt> 18NHixaoQekQJ3y52aBGJJwgBWX9X3myYR has 16.1500024 BTC.
 643 2011-09-22 13:11:19 <b4epoche> oh, yea, what was I thinking?
 644 2011-09-22 13:11:23 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 645 2011-09-22 13:12:54 <sipa> in any case there is absolutely no need for the private keys
 646 2011-09-22 13:13:04 <sipa> the public keys or addresses however... :)
 647 2011-09-22 13:13:06 <b4epoche> you should be a little safer with ZCT if you check balances
 648 2011-09-22 13:13:33 <b4epoche> which you could do immediately
 649 2011-09-22 13:13:48 <b4epoche> if someone gives you their public keys
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 653 2011-09-22 13:20:28 <log0s> b4epoche: how are the results of checking balances any different from normal transaction verification?
 654 2011-09-22 13:22:10 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 655 2011-09-22 13:24:07 <cjdelisle> Who killed Troy Davis?
 656 2011-09-22 13:25:07 wolfspraul has joined
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 658 2011-09-22 13:26:07 <mabus> rick parry
 659 2011-09-22 13:26:47 <cjdelisle> Wrong state I think, anyway I don't care who ordered his slaying, I wanna know who killed him.
 660 2011-09-22 13:27:14 <mabus> fyi i dont think governors order executions
 661 2011-09-22 13:29:37 Xunie has joined
 662 2011-09-22 13:30:39 <b4epoche> log0s:  verification = confirmation?
 663 2011-09-22 13:31:43 clr_ has joined
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 667 2011-09-22 13:35:07 <cjdelisle> thx for the trivia about how executions work but I still don't know what I want to know... Who Killed Troy Davis?
 668 2011-09-22 13:36:30 <sipa> log0s: verifying a transaction doesn't require calculation of any balances
 669 2011-09-22 13:36:49 <sipa> just whether the used input "coins" (unredeemed outputs) are present
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 672 2011-09-22 13:41:38 <log0s> b4epoche: verification != confirmation.  by verification i mean checking that the referenced outputs exist, aren't already spent, inputs have valid signatures, and the sum of those referenced outputs is less than or equal to the sum of the transaction's outputs
 673 2011-09-22 13:42:15 <log0s> sipa: i know, but if the transaction is valid and is sending you the correct amount of money, why would you need to check balances in the first place?
 674 2011-09-22 13:43:46 <log0s> i'm trying to understand why b4epoche would want to check balances instead of just doing normal transaction verification
 675 2011-09-22 13:44:36 <log0s> i don't see how it would provide any added safety against double spending attempts in a zero confirmation situation
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 678 2011-09-22 13:49:00 <b4epoche> log0s:  I was more talking about the 'bad check' scenario discussed earlier
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 694 2011-09-22 14:43:54 <sacarlson> log0s: I just had a thought maybe you could verify a transaction before a confirmation if the transaction was scaned with present index data
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 696 2011-09-22 14:53:33 <sacarlson> b4epoche_ and we are presently developing and testing faster than 10 minutes alternate blockchains, not sure of the progress on that but
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 698 2011-09-22 14:55:21 <b4epoche> I warned you:  <b4epoche_> waiting 10 minutes for a confirm is not shopper friendly (and nobody start with the alternate blockchain with faster confirms)
 699 2011-09-22 14:57:04 <b4epoche> waiting one minute for a confirm is not shopper friendly
 700 2011-09-22 14:58:53 <sacarlson> b4epoche: I think we tried 30 secound but I think we are back up to 1 min 2 min
 701 2011-09-22 14:59:18 <sipa> waiting for transactions to be sent through the bitcoin network is not shopper friendly either
 702 2011-09-22 14:59:27 <sacarlson> b4epoche: in fact a version was tried at 10 secounds but was wiped out in no time
 703 2011-09-22 14:59:42 <sipa> confirmations is not something either customer or merchant should need to care about
 704 2011-09-22 14:59:44 <sacarlson> sipa: but micro nets can be faster
 705 2011-09-22 15:00:58 <b4epoche> sipa:  but the middle-man will care, and I'm wondering how they could really work to prevent the 'bad check' problem
 706 2011-09-22 15:01:06 <b4epoche> otherwise their fees would be enormous
 707 2011-09-22 15:01:17 <b4epoche> well, could be enormous
 708 2011-09-22 15:01:22 <sipa> i doubt that
 709 2011-09-22 15:01:34 <sacarlson> b4epoche: other solution is escrow prefunded p2p transactions
 710 2011-09-22 15:01:56 <b4epoche> sipa:  why do you doubt that?  because most people aren't 'bad'?
 711 2011-09-22 15:03:14 <helo> if there is some mechanism that allows reliable quick confirmations, shouldn't bitcoin as a whole use it?
 712 2011-09-22 15:03:28 <npx> why even attempt to supplant plus/cirrus et al?
 713 2011-09-22 15:03:45 <npx> i mean it works pretty well right now...
 714 2011-09-22 15:03:55 <sipa> satoshi himself assumed 0 confirmations would be the way to go for small payments
 715 2011-09-22 15:04:08 <sipa> yes, there is always a risk for a double spend
 716 2011-09-22 15:04:25 <sacarlson> helo: I don't think quick confirmation will originate in bitcoin but will be the original base of value of smaller networks with transactions that move between bitcoin and coin??
 717 2011-09-22 15:04:32 <sipa> or that some evil genius throws a shitload of money against it to try to revert your payment of a bread
 718 2011-09-22 15:04:44 <sipa> but currently the risk for chargeback exists as well
 719 2011-09-22 15:04:57 <sipa> or other reasons for refunds
 720 2011-09-22 15:05:03 <sipa> as well as payment processor costs
 721 2011-09-22 15:06:56 <helo> maybe it is better to let the world work around bitcoin's design
 722 2011-09-22 15:07:28 <sacarlson> helo: we are just working on different branches based on bitcoins like https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24209.0
 723 2011-09-22 15:07:31 <helo> if bitcoin gets popular, you could send BTC to your credit card company to put USD on it for quick small usage
 724 2011-09-22 15:08:20 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 725 2011-09-22 15:08:22 <sacarlson> helo: I thought we would have mtgox with atm cards to like bitcoins to atm,  what happend to that?
 726 2011-09-22 15:09:11 <sacarlson> helo: I was told that mtgox would have there own debit cards like paypal.com now has
 727 2011-09-22 15:09:59 copumpkin has joined
 728 2011-09-22 15:10:00 <neofutur> its a project, but not a priority, for now mtgox make it with paxum
 729 2011-09-22 15:10:00 <sacarlson> I would love that
 730 2011-09-22 15:10:25 <neofutur> you can get a debit card with paxum using mtgox coupons to charge you paxum debit card
 731 2011-09-22 15:10:57 <sacarlson> neofutur: sounds close enuf, how long is the transation for that?  how much does it cost to transact?
 732 2011-09-22 15:11:21 <neofutur> but the paxum fees are a little high ;(
 733 2011-09-22 15:11:31 <sacarlson> neofutur: so is paypal
 734 2011-09-22 15:11:45 <neofutur> paxum withdraw in very fast most ofthe time
 735 2011-09-22 15:12:17 <sacarlson> neofutur: paxum I"ll have to look at that
 736 2011-09-22 15:12:32 <helo> or if you go to the grocery store, and you know you will spend less than 20BTC. so you pay 20BTC when you get there, do your shopping, and then get change sent to you on checkout
 737 2011-09-22 15:12:45 MrTiggrCoding is now known as MrTiggrDnD
 738 2011-09-22 15:13:34 <sacarlson> neofutur: wow $2.00 transaction fee on paxum,  add the local atm fee also
 739 2011-09-22 15:13:39 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 740 2011-09-22 15:13:41 <neofutur> but there are alsooutages : https://mtgox.zendesk.com/entries/20450286-resolved-outage-12138-possible-paxum-withdrawal-delays
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 744 2011-09-22 15:16:58 <sacarlson> neofutur: oh another big expence $44.95 per year just to keep the account open
 745 2011-09-22 15:17:37 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 746 2011-09-22 15:18:03 <sacarlson> neofutur: wow 3 - 5 day delay on top of that
 747 2011-09-22 15:18:04 <neofutur> yup very high fees at all levels ;(
 748 2011-09-22 15:18:25 pickett has joined
 749 2011-09-22 15:18:42 * neofutur dreaming of the day when mtgox will be a real bank ;)
 750 2011-09-22 15:19:25 Burgundy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 751 2011-09-22 15:19:26 <neofutur> accounts, cards, forex . . .
 752 2011-09-22 15:20:06 <neofutur> but its probably not for tomorrow ;(
 753 2011-09-22 15:20:35 <sacarlson> neofutur: easier to create my own bank make it sooner
 754 2011-09-22 15:21:43 <sacarlson> neofutur: I've already setup a working exchange with beertokens I should just setup a thai baht version of the same
 755 2011-09-22 15:23:02 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
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 757 2011-09-22 15:24:57 <sacarlson> as long at the money get's to my local thai bank that already has an ATM card I would be happy
 758 2011-09-22 15:25:14 <neofutur> it takes years and money tocreate a real bank
 759 2011-09-22 15:25:28 <neofutur> "real bank" !=a website  :p
 760 2011-09-22 15:25:32 <sacarlson> neofutur: then why do I have one already ?
 761 2011-09-22 15:25:54 <sacarlson> I don't need a bank I need a way to transact funds
 762 2011-09-22 15:26:28 <sacarlson> as we know paypal.com isn't a real bank eather
 763 2011-09-22 15:27:10 <sacarlson> not that a real bank in today's world would be any safer
 764 2011-09-22 15:27:13 <neofutur> sure  it is not
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 770 2011-09-22 15:43:38 <SomeoneWeird> which site is it that has the websockets for the trades?
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 776 2011-09-22 15:47:39 <b4epoche> mtgox has it for their trades
 777 2011-09-22 15:48:32 <Lolcust> what happened to the gox ?
 778 2011-09-22 15:48:50 <jrmithdobbs> legal trouble apparently
 779 2011-09-22 15:49:08 <Lolcust> you mean that court with french dudes ?
 780 2011-09-22 15:49:52 <upb> lol someone finally sued their asses?
 781 2011-09-22 15:50:31 <Lolcust> could someone at least give a link or something ?
 782 2011-09-22 15:50:44 <Lolcust> Google only gives me that old french account story...
 783 2011-09-22 15:51:27 <Lolcust> b4epoche care to yield more info ?
 784 2011-09-22 15:52:01 <b4epoche> eh, I got no info…  and haven't tried the feed in a while
 785 2011-09-22 15:52:03 DaQatz has quit (Quit: To drunk to type.)
 786 2011-09-22 15:52:06 <b4epoche> is it down?
 787 2011-09-22 15:52:24 <Lolcust> no
 788 2011-09-22 15:52:37 <ThomasV> b4epoche: what happened?
 789 2011-09-22 15:52:57 <Lolcust> It was you who said that they "has it for their trades" b4epoche care to clarify ^__^ ?
 790 2011-09-22 15:52:58 <b4epoche> I have no idea what happened or why you're asking me
 791 2011-09-22 15:53:18 <b4epoche> that was a reply to SomeoneWeird
 792 2011-09-22 15:53:19 wpl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 793 2011-09-22 15:53:35 <Lolcust> eh okay
 794 2011-09-22 15:53:42 <ThomasV> oh so this is how a rumor starts :-)
 795 2011-09-22 15:53:46 <Lolcust> Serves me well lol :)
 796 2011-09-22 15:54:11 <Lolcust> Anyways, guys, anyone had weird issue when compiling bitcoin-qt ?
 797 2011-09-22 15:54:33 <sipa> works fine here
 798 2011-09-22 15:54:41 <Lolcust> It compiles without error, but when you run it (all dlls present), it crashes. Compiled and run under Windows XP
 799 2011-09-22 15:55:00 wpl has joined
 800 2011-09-22 15:55:03 <sipa> any error reported?
 801 2011-09-22 15:55:09 <neofutur> SomeoneWeird: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API#Websocket_API
 802 2011-09-22 15:55:20 <SomeoneWeird> thanks neo :)
 803 2011-09-22 15:55:49 <Lolcust> sipa, "the application has requested the Runtime to terminate in an unusual way
 804 2011-09-22 15:55:53 <npx> ThomasV, =)
 805 2011-09-22 15:55:58 <Lolcust> nothin more
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 807 2011-09-22 15:57:46 <sipa> Lolcust: i mean in debug.log
 808 2011-09-22 15:58:10 <Lolcust> It doesn't manage to create one
 809 2011-09-22 15:59:02 <sipa> in that case i can't help you
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 811 2011-09-22 15:59:12 <sipa> no experience with windows the past 10 years
 812 2011-09-22 15:59:20 <Lolcust> I'll try to start it on win7, not vm
 813 2011-09-22 15:59:47 <Lolcust> Ok, here it made a debug log which says:
 814 2011-09-22 15:59:48 <Lolcust> DBFlush(false) db not started
 815 2011-09-22 15:59:53 <Lolcust> StopNode()
 816 2011-09-22 15:59:58 <Lolcust> DBFlush(true) db not started
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 818 2011-09-22 16:00:04 <Lolcust> Bitcoin exiting
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 820 2011-09-22 16:00:14 <Lolcust> sipa, that's all :(
 821 2011-09-22 16:00:24 <sipa> that's the entire file?
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 823 2011-09-22 16:00:40 <Lolcust> yeah
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 825 2011-09-22 16:00:58 <sipa> it should always start with "Bitcoin version ..."
 826 2011-09-22 16:01:16 <Lolcust> :(
 827 2011-09-22 16:01:26 <Lolcust> Guess my QT is verily broke
 828 2011-09-22 16:02:00 <sipa> oh, right the qt version
 829 2011-09-22 16:02:08 <sipa> not sure how that starts its logs
 830 2011-09-22 16:02:17 <Lolcust> oh btw, is it normal for it to beg for a whole bunch of qt dlls and not even start till they are provided ?
 831 2011-09-22 16:02:41 <Lolcust> sipa, qt 4.7.3
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 833 2011-09-22 16:03:25 <sipa> Lolcust: sorry, someone else will have to answer, i'm really not familiar with windows enough
 834 2011-09-22 16:04:12 <Lolcust> Well, I could try building a windows .exe from under a *nix right ?
 835 2011-09-22 16:04:53 <BlueMatt> has anyone tried buildling bitcoin-qt with mingw on linux?
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 849 2011-09-22 16:37:14 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
 850 2011-09-22 16:37:26 <BlueMatt> hi devrandom
 851 2011-09-22 16:41:38 <sipa> wb BlueMatt :)
 852 2011-09-22 16:42:44 <BlueMatt> heh
 853 2011-09-22 16:42:48 <devrandom> BlueMatt: looks like gavinandresen has VTx capable hw now
 854 2011-09-22 16:42:49 <BlueMatt> wb sipa as well
 855 2011-09-22 16:43:11 <BlueMatt> devrandom: does he, last I heard he bought an atom computer that didnt have VTx
 856 2011-09-22 16:44:06 <gavinandresen> I hate hardware....
 857 2011-09-22 16:44:17 <luke-jr> shadders: extranonce has been part of the main client since the first release
 858 2011-09-22 16:44:33 <gavinandresen> So yeah, I got a non-Vtx machine.  I'll be re-ebaying it.
 859 2011-09-22 16:44:36 <devrandom> annoying atoms, never where you want them... software is so much more flexible
 860 2011-09-22 16:44:43 <devrandom> oh?
 861 2011-09-22 16:44:48 <luke-jr> my bugfixes are in 0.4rc2
 862 2011-09-22 16:44:55 <gavinandresen> Then I got a Vtx-capable machine (yay!) but screwed up AGAIN because it doesn't do 64-bit....
 863 2011-09-22 16:45:08 <gavinandresen> ... so hopefully third time will be the charm.
 864 2011-09-22 16:45:10 <sipa> computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes :)
 865 2011-09-22 16:45:13 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: err ya the atoms and m350s don't do vt
 866 2011-09-22 16:45:24 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 64-bit is overrated ;)
 867 2011-09-22 16:45:25 <sipa> == who cares about hardware? :p
 868 2011-09-22 16:45:26 <devrandom> VTx without 64bit?  I didn't know they make them
 869 2011-09-22 16:45:37 <jrmithdobbs> and there aren't vtx-capable without 64bit
 870 2011-09-22 16:45:54 <jrmithdobbs> also s/m350/e350/
 871 2011-09-22 16:45:55 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: old Core Duos are vtx-capable 32-bit
 872 2011-09-22 16:46:05 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: vt not vtx
 873 2011-09-22 16:46:06 <gavinandresen> (I'm probably misremembering that)
 874 2011-09-22 16:46:16 <jrmithdobbs> they're missing some of the extensions
 875 2011-09-22 16:47:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: VT-d is ideal ;)
 876 2011-09-22 16:47:23 <luke-jr> so you can do GPU mining in a VM
 877 2011-09-22 16:47:24 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I have no idea what that is.
 878 2011-09-22 16:47:33 <gavinandresen> (and I don't want to know)
 879 2011-09-22 16:47:35 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: VT-d makes VMs on par with the host
 880 2011-09-22 16:47:38 <gavinandresen> (like I said, I hate hardware)
 881 2011-09-22 16:47:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: Ive heard that quote so many times
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 885 2011-09-22 16:48:36 <BlueMatt> VT-d is really cool but really new and not really useful for bitcoin-building
 886 2011-09-22 16:48:46 <BlueMatt> its useful for like in-vm gaming or minin
 887 2011-09-22 16:48:47 <BlueMatt> g
 888 2011-09-22 16:48:56 <jrmithdobbs> i think the builds that require a vtx-capable build environment just need to go away ;p
 889 2011-09-22 16:49:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: when do you plan the final 0.4 release, assuming no blocking bugs appear anymore?
 890 2011-09-22 16:49:21 <gavinandresen> sipa: tomorrow?
 891 2011-09-22 16:49:28 <sipa> ok, good :)
 892 2011-09-22 16:49:38 <BlueMatt> do you want fresh builds to push?
 893 2011-09-22 16:49:58 <devrandom> are we going to do a gitian build and put it up on github?
 894 2011-09-22 16:50:05 <sipa> i may be able to "rebuild" my desktop machine tonight, in which case i can do gitian builds as well
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 896 2011-09-22 16:50:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure.  And gitian builds would be spiffy.
 897 2011-09-22 16:50:36 <BlueMatt> devrandom: probably gonna happen when I get around to working it out so not at launch, but since its deterministic now, it shouldnt be hard to do post...
 898 2011-09-22 16:50:49 <BlueMatt> though maybe I can get the gitian releases put together sometime today too...
 899 2011-09-22 16:50:57 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  ping-- any objections to a 0.4 Official Release tomorrow?
 900 2011-09-22 16:52:56 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nope.  just need to update some translations, AFAICS
 901 2011-09-22 16:53:01 * jgarzik grins at BlueMatt 
 902 2011-09-22 16:53:05 <BlueMatt> ...
 903 2011-09-22 16:53:19 <k9quaint> gavinandresen: is that the sort of thing a despot with his iron fist around the throat of bitcoin would say?
 904 2011-09-22 16:53:45 <k9quaint> try ending every sentence with "I deem it so!"
 905 2011-09-22 16:54:18 <k9quaint> or "let there be decimal places for all my subjects!"
 906 2011-09-22 16:54:45 <sipa> oh, i can update the dutch translation if necessary
 907 2011-09-22 16:55:20 * k9quaint pulls out and dusts off his dutch jokes
 908 2011-09-22 16:55:37 <k9quaint> I was rooting for you guys against Spain though :|
 909 2011-09-22 16:55:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: if it hasnt been done since wallet encryption, that would be nice
 910 2011-09-22 16:56:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/525 (though maybe wait for sipa)
 911 2011-09-22 16:57:17 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I think we trust sipa sufficiently to integrate his *.mo :)
 912 2011-09-22 16:57:26 <BlueMatt> heh, thats true
 913 2011-09-22 16:57:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r2fc8039 / locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.mo : Update binary mo to match latest po translation. - http://git.io/L2hQsg
 914 2011-09-22 16:57:46 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r864e49a / locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/bitcoin.mo :
 915 2011-09-22 16:57:46 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #525 from TheBlueMatt/master
 916 2011-09-22 16:57:46 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Update binary mo to match latest po translation. - http://git.io/nis87Q
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 918 2011-09-22 16:58:18 <WakiMiko_> while the devs are here, a quick question: why does bitcoin need to know about its own external ip address?
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 920 2011-09-22 16:59:29 <devrandom> is this the only thing we have for getheaders?  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f03304a9c79a6cc6096ed501ad38702fd012e7f7
 921 2011-09-22 17:00:40 <gavinandresen> devrandom: ... also see https://gist.github.com/1059233
 922 2011-09-22 17:00:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: so we are moving to github downloads instead of sf, or is that still undecided?
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 924 2011-09-22 17:01:09 <npx> i miss when sf download links were direct
 925 2011-09-22 17:01:11 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sticking with sourceforge for now, I think-- several people in the forums said they had trouble downloading from github
 926 2011-09-22 17:01:20 <sipa> WakiMiko_: it advertizes its own IP
 927 2011-09-22 17:01:33 <WakiMiko_> in response to getaddr?
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 930 2011-09-22 17:02:06 <gavinandresen> WakiMiko_: it advertises its external IP address in the IRC chat bootstrapping channel.
 931 2011-09-22 17:02:12 <BlueMatt> who all can do gitian builds, I forget...just me sipa and devrandom?
 932 2011-09-22 17:02:15 <sipa> 18:47:37 <@jgarzik> BlueMatt: I think we trust sipa sufficiently to integrate his *.mo :)   <-  ehm... care to give a pointer :$
 933 2011-09-22 17:02:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: msgfmt /path/to/po -o /path/to/mo
 934 2011-09-22 17:03:05 <sipa> but if i underand it correctly, the po needs to be updated to the current state of the source code first?
 935 2011-09-22 17:03:12 <BlueMatt> and jgarzik wont do gitian sigs even if not uploading the builds due to copyright stuff still, correct?
 936 2011-09-22 17:03:45 <WakiMiko_> gavinandresen: but didnt the client try to determine its external ip before irc bootstrapping was integrated?
 937 2011-09-22 17:03:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, yea just use poedit then
 938 2011-09-22 17:04:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: it should handle mo, etc for you then
 939 2011-09-22 17:04:46 <gavinandresen> WakiMiko_: I dunno, that was before my time.  Probably-- there's probably some subtle attack possible if you have to trust your peers to tell the truth about what your external IP address is.
 940 2011-09-22 17:06:09 <WakiMiko_> but why does it even need to know?
 941 2011-09-22 17:07:12 <BlueMatt> devrandom: how do I get the like 20 char gpg keyid that gitian-download-config uses?
 942 2011-09-22 17:07:31 <BlueMatt> (I think Ive got everyones keys in my chain, I just need to get that odd id)
 943 2011-09-22 17:07:45 <BlueMatt> tcatm: ping
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 946 2011-09-22 17:08:34 <BlueMatt> devrandom: nvm Im blind
 947 2011-09-22 17:08:34 <gavinandresen> WakiMiko_: well, external IP addresses are broadcast as 'addr' messages, and I think (but I'm probably wrong) nodes broadcast their own addresses.  I suppose they wouldn't have to ....
 948 2011-09-22 17:09:43 <devrandom> --keyid-format
 949 2011-09-22 17:09:45 <devrandom> ok :)
 950 2011-09-22 17:10:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: it's 16 characters ;)
 951 2011-09-22 17:10:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: no its more like 40 for gitian
 952 2011-09-22 17:10:32 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/blob/master/doc/DOWNLOADER.md
 953 2011-09-22 17:10:57 <WakiMiko_> the reason im asking is that bitcoin is relying on all these other services like whatismyip.com when it might not even need to
 954 2011-09-22 17:11:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: of, that's the entire fingerprint
 955 2011-09-22 17:11:56 <sipa> the short keyid are the last 8 hex characters of the fingerprint, the long keyid the last 16
 956 2011-09-22 17:12:07 <BlueMatt> mmm
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 959 2011-09-22 17:15:20 <Joric> afaik bitcoin doesn't even try to determine if it's NATed or not, i tried dns and irc discovery about 90% of nodes are dead either connection rejected or connection timeout
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 962 2011-09-22 17:16:34 <Joric> eg, i got only 4 live clients out of 40 from dns seed and each takes about a second to test
 963 2011-09-22 17:16:58 <gavinandresen> Joric: so write a smarter dns seeder...
 964 2011-09-22 17:17:24 <gavinandresen> (one that periodically connects, does the version handshake, then disconnects, maybe)
 965 2011-09-22 17:17:26 <BlueMatt> dnsseed should be better than that
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 967 2011-09-22 17:17:38 <BlueMatt> (well mine, not the static ones)
 968 2011-09-22 17:19:13 <gavinandresen> Is there a wiki page on dns seeding?  I don't see one in the Technical Articles list
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 972 2011-09-22 17:19:50 <BlueMatt> probably not
 973 2011-09-22 17:20:04 <gavinandresen> a technical article on bootstrapping would be spiffy, too
 974 2011-09-22 17:20:19 <gavinandresen> (hint, hint)
 975 2011-09-22 17:20:41 <BlueMatt> maybe when I get gitian zips building
 976 2011-09-22 17:20:48 <gavinandresen> Wait, I mean Though Shalt Write Articles on Bootstrapping and DNS Seeding.  I deem it so!
 977 2011-09-22 17:21:16 <sipa> Thou or Though?
 978 2011-09-22 17:21:40 <gavinandresen> Thou
 979 2011-09-22 17:21:57 <sipa> :)
 980 2011-09-22 17:22:28 <gavinandresen> Thou or Ye?  Ye shalt...   yeah, should be Ye, I think
 981 2011-09-22 17:22:40 * BlueMatt hates olde english
 982 2011-09-22 17:22:43 <Joric> you can use STUN servers to determine if your address is really accesible but someone should host them too )
 983 2011-09-22 17:22:58 <Joric> cans't thou not speak by usual way?
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 985 2011-09-22 17:27:30 <sipa> i read somewhere that originally "thou" was the less polite form, and "you" the more polite one :)
 986 2011-09-22 17:27:34 <luke-jr> vragnaroda: gavinandresen needs your assistance
 987 2011-09-22 17:27:45 <luke-jr> sipa: "you" is plural
 988 2011-09-22 17:28:12 <sipa> could be, i'm not native english
 989 2011-09-22 17:28:40 <BlueMatt> can someone confirm tcatm's pgp keyid for me?
 990 2011-09-22 17:28:49 <luke-jr> it's as if royal-we got out of hand ;)
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 998 2011-09-22 17:36:19 <BlueMatt> proposed gitian-download-config file (based on devrandom's original) http://pastebin.com/K32hYF5c
 999 2011-09-22 17:36:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: comments on urls or sig weights?
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1001 2011-09-22 17:37:12 <BlueMatt> (gavin + 2 others == release)
1002 2011-09-22 17:37:15 <BlueMatt> or 4 others
1003 2011-09-22 17:38:13 <BlueMatt> download will try http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin-latest-linux-gitian.zip first (just to have that in case we move off sf or something on sf changes) then try parsing rss from http://sourceforge.net/api/file/index/project-id/244765/mtime/desc/limit/100/rss to find something that looks like bitcoin-\d+.\d+.\d+-linux-gitian.zip
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1008 2011-09-22 17:42:38 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: RE: weights:  I'd do equal weights to start, I think.  URLs seem fine.  This is all for the gitian-auto-downloader-doohickey?
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1011 2011-09-22 17:51:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea
1012 2011-09-22 17:53:23 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the downloader just does the downloads, its up to the program to figure out when to try it (though it could just try it on a regular basis and gitian-downloader will reject the current version or not-enough-sigs, but its a waste to redownload all of bitcoin on a regular basis to check for updates)
1013 2011-09-22 17:53:49 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: for minimum_weight, would you say two sigs or three out of the 5
1014 2011-09-22 17:53:57 <BlueMatt> (if you include tcatm)
1015 2011-09-22 17:53:59 <BlueMatt> and devrandom
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1075 2011-09-22 19:29:56 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf3a68bbcc73c gentoo/app-misc/cgminer/ (Manifest cgminer-2.0.3.ebuild): app-misc/cgminer-2.0.3
1076 2011-09-22 19:30:28 wboy1 has joined
1077 2011-09-22 19:34:51 <Lolcust> Okay, after making a separate VM with only QT-sdk on it, i've managed to get bitcoin-qt work okey-dokey.
1078 2011-09-22 19:35:26 wardearia has joined
1079 2011-09-22 19:36:01 <Lolcust> Silly question time: is it possible to compile the "guiless" bitcoind.exe from sources of bitcoin-qt via qt sdk tools ?
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1082 2011-09-22 19:42:43 <luke-jr> Lolcust: no, that's a GOOD question
1083 2011-09-22 19:43:16 <Lolcust> really ?
1084 2011-09-22 19:44:04 <Lolcust> Any chance you or anyone could point me in the right direction ?
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1091 2011-09-22 20:00:55 <hippich> Lolcust, it is possible.
1092 2011-09-22 20:01:00 <hippich> i done it.
1093 2011-09-22 20:01:08 <Lolcust> great :)
1094 2011-09-22 20:01:11 <hippich> one moment...
1095 2011-09-22 20:03:48 <Lolcust> Oh, and BTW, which version of miniunpnp does bitcoin-qt "use" ? I tried compiling it with unpnp, and it gives me a "too many arguments" thing, which as far as I know is related to a wrong version of the upnp thingie
1096 2011-09-22 20:03:50 <hippich> makefile.unix
1097 2011-09-22 20:03:51 <hippich> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=aKsTK4qr
1098 2011-09-22 20:04:14 <hippich> i am no help with upnp stuff tho )
1099 2011-09-22 20:04:44 <hippich> put this makefile into /src/
1100 2011-09-22 20:04:54 <hippich> then cd src && make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
1101 2011-09-22 20:05:23 <hippich> well.. i remember there were some other minor changes in source code...
1102 2011-09-22 20:05:24 <hippich> hm..
1103 2011-09-22 20:05:53 <Lolcust> wait a second, this is for compiling under unix, right ?
1104 2011-09-22 20:06:22 <hippich> right
1105 2011-09-22 20:06:31 <Lolcust> well I guess unix is the primary audience of bitcoind so makes sense.......
1106 2011-09-22 20:06:43 <hippich> you need for windows?
1107 2011-09-22 20:07:03 <Lolcust> Well, yeah, at least for now.
1108 2011-09-22 20:07:36 <hippich> changes should be similar...
1109 2011-09-22 20:07:43 <hippich> basically rpc.h became bitcoinrpc.h
1110 2011-09-22 20:08:08 <hippich> and there were some changes in init.cpp
1111 2011-09-22 20:08:11 <hippich> looking for it.
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1115 2011-09-22 20:11:52 <hippich> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ehgsu27P
1116 2011-09-22 20:12:07 <hippich> Lolcust, these are changes required for init.cpp compile without QT
1117 2011-09-22 20:12:30 <Lolcust> thx
1118 2011-09-22 20:12:37 <hippich> so it is really minor changes.
1119 2011-09-22 20:12:45 <hippich> should be easy to repeat on windows.
1120 2011-09-22 20:13:17 <Lolcust> and, as far as I understand, I don't need qt 's horrible tools then, and can just go with ming command line ya ?
1121 2011-09-22 20:15:01 <hippich> yep. but i do not agree they are horrible. they are probably horrible at windows =)
1122 2011-09-22 20:16:40 <Lolcust> You know, I'm a graphic designer and I feel out of water without a GUI, it really takes a genius to make a gui that makes me wish for command line interface. Also, static build instructions for QT (both win and lin) are incredibly obtuse, IMO
1123 2011-09-22 20:17:16 <Lolcust> anyways, thanks. I guess that should do it :)
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1125 2011-09-22 20:24:59 <luke-jr> Lolcust: all 0.4+ require miniupnp 1.6+
1126 2011-09-22 20:25:24 <Lolcust> ah, thanks
1127 2011-09-22 20:25:43 <luke-jr> hippich: no, Qt is ideal for Windows
1128 2011-09-22 20:25:53 <hippich> Lolcust, QT have great GUI editor =) Under Ubuntu you install it with "apt-get install qt-creator" =)
1129 2011-09-22 20:26:05 <hippich> luke-jr, good to know =) never dealth with qt and windows :)
1130 2011-09-22 20:26:18 <luke-jr> qmake -profile mingw32 && make
1131 2011-09-22 20:26:20 <luke-jr> ^ for me
1132 2011-09-22 20:26:29 <luke-jr> unfortunately, I suspect bdb and boost make that difficult
1133 2011-09-22 20:29:57 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r8844bcd8052e gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt-9999: update for latest git
1134 2011-09-22 20:30:25 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r1cd8b27842e2 / (Makefile src/transaction.cpp tests/merkle.cpp): BUGFIX: merkle hash function fails if after first level is odd number of hashes
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1141 2011-09-22 20:43:53 Guest90691 is now known as Cory
1142 2011-09-22 20:44:00 Cory has quit (Changing host)
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1145 2011-09-22 20:45:52 <BlueMatt-mobile> gavinandresen: ping
1146 2011-09-22 20:46:17 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-mobile: I'm here
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1156 2011-09-22 20:54:23 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: due to time constraints, can you pull 526 and tag 0.4?
1157 2011-09-22 20:55:24 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure
1158 2011-09-22 20:55:32 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r90efeb5 / (2 files): Updated dutch translation - http://git.io/cruS4g
1159 2011-09-22 20:55:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rda799d9 / (2 files):
1160 2011-09-22 20:55:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #526 from sipa/nl
1161 2011-09-22 20:55:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Updated dutch translation - http://git.io/cXFLSw
1162 2011-09-22 20:56:07 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1166 2011-09-22 21:00:13 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1167 2011-09-22 21:00:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r16d6963 / README.md : Fix QA email address - http://git.io/5V3w_A
1168 2011-09-22 21:00:43 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: or...wait one sec...
1169 2011-09-22 21:00:57 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
1170 2011-09-22 21:00:59 <gavinandresen> ... I was just about to tag.....
1171 2011-09-22 21:01:20 zamgo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1172 2011-09-22 21:02:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/527 then tag
1173 2011-09-22 21:03:00 <BlueMatt> (if you agree with min_weight of 3/5 devs)
1174 2011-09-22 21:03:19 <BlueMatt> (including devrandom)
1175 2011-09-22 21:04:05 <sipa> i won't be able to do gitian build until tomorrow evening (like 24h from now)
1176 2011-09-22 21:04:19 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1177 2011-09-22 21:04:22 pickett has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1178 2011-09-22 21:04:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r0920ad1 / (16 files in 3 dirs): Restructure gitian files and add download config files. - http://git.io/psr-9A
1179 2011-09-22 21:04:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rc7eb151 / (16 files in 3 dirs):
1180 2011-09-22 21:04:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #527 from TheBlueMatt/gitian-downloader
1181 2011-09-22 21:04:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Restructure gitian files and add download config files. - http://git.io/NIkCwg
1182 2011-09-22 21:04:46 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
1183 2011-09-22 21:05:50 pickett has joined
1184 2011-09-22 21:06:03 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1185 2011-09-22 21:06:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 146490 | Current Difficulty: 1755425.3203287 | Next Difficulty At Block: 147167 | Next Difficulty In: 677 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes, and 23 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1724394.85229261 | Estimated Percent Change: -1.76768944122
1186 2011-09-22 21:07:11 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, its up to you, I might not be build-capable for a couple days, but then I can build
1187 2011-09-22 21:08:26 zeiris has joined
1188 2011-09-22 21:08:37 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1189 2011-09-22 21:09:30 <gavinandresen> * [new tag]         v0.4.0 -> v0.4.0
1190 2011-09-22 21:11:12 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1197 2011-09-22 21:27:22 SomeoneWeird has joined
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1199 2011-09-22 21:27:22 SomeoneWeird has joined
1200 2011-09-22 21:28:22 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1201 2011-09-22 21:29:10 larsivi has joined
1202 2011-09-22 21:32:58 <diki> just a questio
1203 2011-09-22 21:33:00 <diki> n
1204 2011-09-22 21:33:07 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1205 2011-09-22 21:33:14 <diki> if i own a us domain, but i am obviously not in the US nor a US citizen at all
1206 2011-09-22 21:33:22 <diki> could someone like...gain my domain?
1207 2011-09-22 21:33:34 larsivi has joined
1208 2011-09-22 21:34:12 <diki> us domain = [dot]us
1209 2011-09-22 21:35:34 <erus`> diki the government can have it if some cunt claims copyright infringement
1210 2011-09-22 21:35:35 <Diablo-D3> no
1211 2011-09-22 21:35:47 <Diablo-D3> they have to go through the normal process that applies to almost all domains
1212 2011-09-22 21:37:03 <erus`> film industry pays off a senator
1213 2011-09-22 21:37:09 <erus`> he tells a judge to rule in favor
1214 2011-09-22 21:37:19 <erus`> boom say goodbye to domain
1215 2011-09-22 21:37:37 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|no
1216 2011-09-22 21:37:37 b4epoche_ has joined
1217 2011-09-22 21:37:42 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|IANA
1218 2011-09-22 21:37:52 <Diablo-D3> yes, IANA
1219 2011-09-22 21:38:03 <Diablo-D3> theres an actual process they have to go through
1220 2011-09-22 21:38:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|sorry
1221 2011-09-22 21:38:09 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|ICANN
1222 2011-09-22 21:38:19 <Diablo-D3> damnit nameless|
1223 2011-09-22 21:38:22 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|lol
1224 2011-09-22 21:38:49 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|http://domains.adrforum.com/main.aspx?itemID=263&hideBar=True&navID=199&news=26
1225 2011-09-22 21:39:08 <diki> the domain is bitcoin related
1226 2011-09-22 21:39:14 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1227 2011-09-22 21:39:44 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|bitcoin.us?
1228 2011-09-22 21:39:45 <SomeoneWeird> lol iana is ip's n shit
1229 2011-09-22 21:39:54 <diki> nameless|:ugh, no
1230 2011-09-22 21:40:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|SomeoneWeird: IANA is a branch of ICANN
1231 2011-09-22 21:40:12 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|so, yes, but no
1232 2011-09-22 21:40:14 <SomeoneWeird> iknow
1233 2011-09-22 21:40:31 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|"IANA controls numbers for protocols, the Country Code Top Level Domains and maintains the IP Address allotments."
1234 2011-09-22 21:40:50 <SomeoneWeird> meh
1235 2011-09-22 21:41:52 SomeoneWeird has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1236 2011-09-22 21:42:16 <b4epoche_> hmm…  maybe Silk Road isn't so anonymous:  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/09/22/jerome.simpson.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a12&eref=sihp
1237 2011-09-22 21:42:49 larsivi has joined
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1239 2011-09-22 21:57:53 ThomasV has joined
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1241 2011-09-22 22:03:33 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1242 2011-09-22 22:04:54 xelister has joined
1243 2011-09-22 22:05:36 <JFK911> b4epoche_: whos selling that kind of weight on silk road?
1244 2011-09-22 22:05:49 <JFK911> from looking at their forums it looks like that shit is taken 'off the road'
1245 2011-09-22 22:06:14 <b4epoche_> I have no idea…  just reminded my of Silk Road/Bitcoin talk
1246 2011-09-22 22:06:20 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1247 2011-09-22 22:06:23 <JFK911> ive never seen anything like that listed
1248 2011-09-22 22:06:36 <JFK911> i dont look often but its quite entertaining sometimes
1249 2011-09-22 22:06:49 <JFK911> and lol people surprised that meth sellers not shipping lol
1250 2011-09-22 22:07:06 <xelister> JFK911: so what is the situation on SR?
1251 2011-09-22 22:07:42 <JFK911> well they disclose the number of orders processed and its going up and up and up
1252 2011-09-22 22:07:47 <xelister> so #bitcoin is a bit drowning in random white noise/spam/crap
1253 2011-09-22 22:07:50 <JFK911> and it costs bitcoins to get selling permission there now
1254 2011-09-22 22:08:01 <JFK911> im sure its making money
1255 2011-09-22 22:08:05 zeiris has joined
1256 2011-09-22 22:08:05 <xelister> JFK911: url? (onion ok)
1257 2011-09-22 22:08:23 <JFK911> i have to dig it up hold on
1258 2011-09-22 22:08:41 <JFK911> there are also fake silkroads phishing passwords
1259 2011-09-22 22:09:00 <JFK911> http://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.onion/
1260 2011-09-22 22:09:09 <xelister> the above is fake SR?
1261 2011-09-22 22:09:09 <JFK911> i looked at one of the fake sites because it's on the tor wiki
1262 2011-09-22 22:09:26 <JFK911> it redirected you to the real SR to sign up
1263 2011-09-22 22:09:28 <xelister> cool. that is why you need webs of trust in anon world
1264 2011-09-22 22:09:32 jjjrmy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1265 2011-09-22 22:10:16 <JFK911> there is a lot of f'd up s listed in the tor wiki as well
1266 2011-09-22 22:10:25 <JFK911> http://kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
1267 2011-09-22 22:11:01 <JFK911> kid porns and supposed contract killers
1268 2011-09-22 22:11:18 <JFK911> and that one guy who will get the swat team going for bitcoins, by making prank calls
1269 2011-09-22 22:11:35 <JFK911> there is bitcoin firearms dealing
1270 2011-09-22 22:11:39 <b4epoche_> why does this fella need to supplement his income selling pot:  http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/jerome-simpson/
1271 2011-09-22 22:12:06 <b4epoche_> I'm saying it was for personal use…  I mean look at the guy:  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/8823/
1272 2011-09-22 22:12:48 <JFK911> yeah i think if someone was smoking a whole lot he wouldnt be running
1273 2011-09-22 22:12:59 <JFK911> have you ever seen the thick ass tar thats left inside pipes etc
1274 2011-09-22 22:13:15 <JFK911> also potheads dont exercise
1275 2011-09-22 22:14:31 <diki> anyone else have
1276 2011-09-22 22:14:35 <diki> eyefloaters?
1277 2011-09-22 22:15:18 iocor has joined
1278 2011-09-22 22:16:20 <lfm> sure
1279 2011-09-22 22:16:30 <b4epoche_> with aches and pains playing in the NFL must give you, you'd think you could argue it's for medicinal use
1280 2011-09-22 22:17:02 <vragnaroda> luke-jr: Instead of telling me when someone doesn't know the answer to something, you could just tell him the fucking answer, especially when it's something we've been over before and I know you know it.
1281 2011-09-22 22:18:17 <JFK911> yeha well he can afford to move to oakland lol
1282 2011-09-22 22:18:20 <JFK911> he was selling
1283 2011-09-22 22:18:30 <JFK911> nobody smokes 2.5 pounds plus 6 pounds by himself
1284 2011-09-22 22:18:49 <JFK911> it would take me eight years to use that much
1285 2011-09-22 22:19:00 <freewil> i really doubt he was selling shit
1286 2011-09-22 22:19:07 <freewil> probably just for him, his boys, and groupies
1287 2011-09-22 22:19:08 <lfm> maybe its a conspiracy, some other team is framing him to get him kicked out
1288 2011-09-22 22:19:11 <b4epoche_> giving it to his buds
1289 2011-09-22 22:19:17 <JFK911> well distribution then
1290 2011-09-22 22:19:51 <vragnaroda> 18:00:34 - < JFK911> there is a lot of f'd up s listed in the tor wiki as well  ←  Like such juvenile imbecility that “f'ed up s” is preferred over using actual words?  That's the most vulgar and annoying thing on the Internet.
1291 2011-09-22 22:19:59 ephcon has joined
1292 2011-09-22 22:20:15 <JFK911> yeah i didnt really want to be vulgar
1293 2011-09-22 22:20:19 <JFK911> bfd
1294 2011-09-22 22:20:41 <vragnaroda> Well, thou wast.
1295 2011-09-22 22:20:42 <JFK911> way to try and burn someone for politeness
1296 2011-09-22 22:20:50 <cacheson> JFK911: fuck that shit
1297 2011-09-22 22:21:06 <lfm> who wast?
1298 2011-09-22 22:21:12 <vragnaroda> I never said it was rude; I said it was vulgar.
1299 2011-09-22 22:21:12 <JFK911> that's sure the thing to focus on when kidfuckers and supposed contract killers are around
1300 2011-09-22 22:21:30 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1301 2011-09-22 22:21:36 <vragnaroda> lfm: ‘Wast’ *only* goes with thou.  (Although the subjunctive is ‘wert.’)
1302 2011-09-22 22:21:57 <lfm> vinegar? [mwert?
1303 2011-09-22 22:23:16 <lfm> are these [K and [m some sorta smileys that my system doesnt interpret or waht?
1304 2011-09-22 22:23:53 <vragnaroda> JFK911: Almost everyone hates kiddy diddlers.  What thou dost is more evil because nine times out of ten, no one says shit in order to avoid offending thee.  'Tis thou that dost demand special treatment from others in not saying shit in order to avoid offending Your Prudery.
1305 2011-09-22 22:24:38 <JFK911> maybe i mistook your comment
1306 2011-09-22 22:24:53 <JFK911> anyway how about that scale they say the cops found
1307 2011-09-22 22:25:00 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
1308 2011-09-22 22:25:04 <Diablo-D3> if I wanted retarded politics
1309 2011-09-22 22:25:06 <Diablo-D3> I'd join #eligius
1310 2011-09-22 22:25:17 <lfm> footballers need scales for their diets. dont mean nothing
1311 2011-09-22 22:25:22 <JFK911> if he wasnt sellin and it was a scale with 0.1 gram resolution i'd wonder why would you need that for having like ten pounds
1312 2011-09-22 22:25:45 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: 10 pounds would ruin a scale like that
1313 2011-09-22 22:25:51 <JFK911> right
1314 2011-09-22 22:25:58 <vragnaroda> Diablo-D3: By retarded politics, you mean “pedophilia is better than the gay?”
1315 2011-09-22 22:26:01 <JFK911> you'd use like a postal scale to check you weren't getting shorted
1316 2011-09-22 22:26:08 <Diablo-D3> vragnaroda: yes.
1317 2011-09-22 22:26:16 <Diablo-D3> go take the pedophilia to catholic central, ie, #eligius
1318 2011-09-22 22:26:25 <Diablo-D3> I dont particularly want to hear it
1319 2011-09-22 22:26:28 * vragnaroda kisses luke-jr.
1320 2011-09-22 22:26:49 <lfm> well I cant understand comparing grammar to pedophilia
1321 2011-09-22 22:26:58 <k9quaint> did someone say ice cream trucks?
1322 2011-09-22 22:27:57 <lfm> I wonder how long its been since we mentioned bitcoins here?
1323 2011-09-22 22:28:43 <JFK911> do you think a footballer really figured out how to use bitcoins
1324 2011-09-22 22:28:45 <vragnaroda> lfm: Those are the Internet monies that let you buy kiddy porn without the party van coming and getting you right?
1325 2011-09-22 22:29:05 <JFK911> i bet he was on that other site and sending moneygrams
1326 2011-09-22 22:29:05 <vragnaroda> JFK911: Yes.
1327 2011-09-22 22:29:07 <xelister> what in the fucks name are you talking about
1328 2011-09-22 22:29:27 <xelister> quite sure it isnt bitcoin development talk?  Im jumpy because #bitcoin drowns in white noise too
1329 2011-09-22 22:29:50 <lfm> http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/jerome-simpson/
1330 2011-09-22 22:30:31 <vragnaroda> 18:17:16 - < k9quaint> did someone say ice cream trucks?  ←  http://youtu.be/2w02QxQZGQc  (You will go blind.)
1331 2011-09-22 22:30:37 <lfm> thats the drug dealer, not the kiddie porn (so far as we know)
1332 2011-09-22 22:31:18 <k9quaint> I won't go blind because I won't be clicking on the link
1333 2011-09-22 22:31:27 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1334 2011-09-22 22:31:34 <lfm> youtube wont even let me see it
1335 2011-09-22 22:31:39 <vragnaroda> k9quaint: No kids in that; just a bunch of fags.
1336 2011-09-22 22:32:04 <vragnaroda> lfm: You have to log in and click to say you're over 18, but you're not missing anything.
1337 2011-09-22 22:32:24 <lfm> I think you tube wont let me cuz I am too old
1338 2011-09-22 22:32:35 ephcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1339 2011-09-22 22:33:05 <vragnaroda> lfm: No.  YouTube doesn't filter for creepy viewers yet.  (How old are you anyway?)
1340 2011-09-22 22:33:41 <lfm> 57
1341 2011-09-22 22:33:53 RobinPKR has joined
1342 2011-09-22 22:34:33 <vragnaroda> lfm: Fuck; that's old.  It would indeed be creepy (as well as gay) for you to watch that.
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1361 2011-09-22 23:36:06 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
1362 2011-09-22 23:36:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":5.83001,"low":5.29,"avg":5.544420007,"vwap":5.541028667,"vol":32752,"last":5.47696,"buy":5.47696,"sell":5.499}}
1363 2011-09-22 23:36:09 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1364 2011-09-22 23:40:01 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
1365 2011-09-22 23:40:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 146502 | Current Difficulty: 1755425.3203287 | Next Difficulty At Block: 147167 | Next Difficulty In: 665 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 18 hours, 31 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1722363.49568584 | Estimated Percent Change: -1.88340821225
1366 2011-09-22 23:51:29 normanrichards has joined