1 2011-09-26 00:00:11 <Toawa> Ultimately, in princple, there's no reason why it couldn't happen right now.  Why hasn't it, then?
   2 2011-09-26 00:00:14 <gmaxwell> And adding more _legit_ transactions to the network which are objectively indistinguishable from paracitic data storage transactions makes it harder for the system to resist attack without imposing fees on everything.
   3 2011-09-26 00:00:29 <gmaxwell> Toawa: it has, run strings on your block file.
   4 2011-09-26 00:01:01 <gmaxwell> But at least most data-riding transactions are objectively distinguishable from efficient ones, so we can impose greater fees on them to discourage the practice.
   5 2011-09-26 00:01:46 <lfm> hard to impose fees on the coin-base txn tho
   6 2011-09-26 00:01:52 <gmaxwell> If you intentionally start stuffing a side channel into legit transactions then it becomes impossible for miners to discourage transactions that look like that without making regular bitcoin users unhappy.
   7 2011-09-26 00:02:29 <gmaxwell> lfm: yea, but at least we can generally assume that anyone making coin-base txn has more invested in the healt of the system than j-random-attacker.
   8 2011-09-26 00:02:42 <lfm> hehe true
   9 2011-09-26 00:03:08 * luke-jr notes multicast could kill p2p
  10 2011-09-26 00:03:31 <JFK911> multicast is the ultimate p2p
  11 2011-09-26 00:03:40 <JFK911> errybody join group!
  12 2011-09-26 00:04:06 <lfm> not really p2p, more like broadcast than p2p
  13 2011-09-26 00:04:32 <gmaxwell> well, modern multicast is source specific, so it's not quite everything-broadcast.
  14 2011-09-26 00:04:53 <gmaxwell> It still seems unlikely that we'll see multicast being generally available on the public internet anytime soon— ISPs don't know how to charge for it.
  15 2011-09-26 00:05:25 <lfm> hmm well maybe multicast is just an optimization of  something in between braodcast and p2p
  16 2011-09-26 00:05:44 <gmaxwell> multicast is an optimization of unicast plus source replication.
  17 2011-09-26 00:06:21 <gmaxwell> in the case where N unicast streams would carry identical data over many hops, multicast saves a lot of capacity.
  18 2011-09-26 00:06:25 <lfm> target replication?
  19 2011-09-26 00:06:33 <JFK911> internet wide ipv6 multicast address for bitcoin seems like the answer
  20 2011-09-26 00:07:01 <gmaxwell> lfm: source replication E.g. where the source does 100% of the replication.
  21 2011-09-26 00:07:16 <lfm> oh
  22 2011-09-26 00:07:44 <lfm> JFK911: bitcoin is actually pretty darn efficient now imho
  23 2011-09-26 00:08:02 <gmaxwell> Target replication is like bittorrent. Where endpoints copy data to other endpoints, which is a model which is pretty different from multicast— in particular it puts the highest loads in the edges of the network which tend to have the highest marginal cost per bit.
  24 2011-09-26 00:08:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, bitcoin's efficiency is great, the filtering INV scheme works pretty well.
  25 2011-09-26 00:09:53 <gmaxwell> well, it's not great if you have 1000 peers, but you shouldn't do that. :)
  26 2011-09-26 00:11:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nonsense, multicast can be charged the same way as any other traffic
  27 2011-09-26 00:11:26 <luke-jr> it's not like the recipients are charged
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  29 2011-09-26 00:12:12 <Toawa> sipa: Yeah, that proposal would work... It's not everything I'd have liked to see (my idea doesn't tie you to a specific intermediary, but that's probably not important enough to get worked up over).  As for the remarks; transmission should always be encrypted except when there's a reason not to, but using HTTPS probably counts as encrypted.
  30 2011-09-26 00:13:25 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: No, the sender is— but the sender now generates 1x traffic at their port, but in network replication turns that into 1000x the load elsewhere in the network. You can no longer just count the bits per second on the customer's port, you need to track replication in the network _per_flow_ and basically nothing collects data for that, plus the customer can't control their cost liablity today
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  33 2011-09-26 00:13:52 <gmaxwell> you know if you have a 1g port you won't be charged for more than 1g of traffic (likewise if you shape yourself), multicast complicates that greatly.
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  35 2011-09-26 00:14:06 <luke-jr> hmm
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  37 2011-09-26 00:14:33 <gmaxwell> So right now, you can find multicast available e.g. with MPLS VPN services, and what the ISPs do is charge for the greater of the sum of all outbound or the sum of all inbound traffic.
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  39 2011-09-26 00:14:45 <gmaxwell> But thats works because all the participants in the VPN are one customer.
  40 2011-09-26 00:16:04 <luke-jr> yeah, I guess I wasn't considering downstream routes
  41 2011-09-26 00:16:54 <luke-jr> but still, multicast within ISPs should be possible :/
  42 2011-09-26 00:17:04 <gmaxwell> it's especially goofy with multiple providers.. e.g. provider A, your ISP, might have the flow monitoring to bill you for your replicated traffic, but they hand off one flow to provider B who replicates it 1000 fold but doesn't have a relationship to bill you. :)
  43 2011-09-26 00:17:14 <gmaxwell> Oh, well, it's possible some ISPs offer it.
  44 2011-09-26 00:17:21 <gmaxwell> The long standing example is sprint.
  45 2011-09-26 00:18:00 <gmaxwell> Some also use it for their own stuff.. e.g. if they offer an IPTV service they'll probably use it, but they may or may not let their customers get it.. and you can be pretty sure it won't work across isps.
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  48 2011-09-26 00:18:58 <luke-jr> I suppose multicast escalates DoS risks
  49 2011-09-26 00:22:25 <gmaxwell> Well, the reciever specified what S,G they want. (source and group) So it makes some worse, it's at least something you can fight.
  50 2011-09-26 00:23:54 <Toawa> sipa: A thought occurs; perhaps I'm misreading the proposal, but I just realized... Does it open the possibility that the processor could alter the transaction to redirect the change to themselves?
  51 2011-09-26 00:24:18 <Toawa> Obviously it would be bad form to do so, but the protocol doesn't seem to prevent it
  52 2011-09-26 00:25:25 <Toawa> Actually, that vulnerability could also pop up in a 51% power attack too, but at least then hopefully good nodes would outnumber bad.
  53 2011-09-26 00:28:04 <gmaxwell> ...
  54 2011-09-26 00:28:21 <gmaxwell> Toawa: a '51% power attack' results in no such thing.
  55 2011-09-26 00:29:09 <Toawa> Sure it could.
  56 2011-09-26 00:29:32 <gmaxwell> Go ahead and explain how.
  57 2011-09-26 00:29:54 <Toawa> 51% power starts altering transactions; outruns anyone saying different (until delt with externally, probably resulting in a chain fork)
  58 2011-09-26 00:30:30 <gmaxwell> Thats not how bitcoin works, all the nodes would ignore those blocks because the signatures would be invalid. It would be exactly as if Mr. 51% simply turned off, as far as the rest of the network was concerned.
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  60 2011-09-26 00:31:08 <Gonzago> Anyone seen the Operation Fabulous guy around?
  61 2011-09-26 00:31:43 <Gonzago> I would like to notify him of a glaring typo.
  62 2011-09-26 00:31:45 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin isn't simply "longest chain wins", it's "longest completely valid chain wins", and all full nodes (mining or not) apply the complete set of validation rules before accepting and forwarding blocks.
  63 2011-09-26 00:32:12 <gmaxwell> Even lite nodes can validate against that kind of bad data too, since you only need to evaluate the transaction itself.
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  66 2011-09-26 00:35:02 <gmaxwell> Toawa: A 51% attacker can only do two things: Denial of service, he can refuse to process transactions (selectively) and emit an empty blockchain;  Reverse and respend attacks involving his own/his conspirators transactions.  Thats all 51% can do— which is serious enough, but it's far from all powerful.
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  80 2011-09-26 00:39:23 <Toawa> I'm looking at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules and I'm not seeing anything that prevents someone from altering the Values in the TxOut structs, which is what I'm talking about.  I'll admit I expect your right; I'd find it hard to believe that such a glaring oversight would be be made, but I'm not seeing where the check is.
  81 2011-09-26 00:40:06 <gmaxwell> Toawa: the txout is covered by the cryptographic signature.
  82 2011-09-26 00:40:24 <gmaxwell> And if it were not, then you wouldn't need 51% to do evil things with that.
  83 2011-09-26 00:40:39 <Toawa> (But you could)
  84 2011-09-26 00:40:55 <Toawa> Where is the signature generated/stored/referenced?
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  86 2011-09-26 00:42:56 <gmaxwell> Huh? I mean if you could mine a block _at all_ then you could simply write all the txouts to zero and give you all the coins as change. with 10GH you could do this attack one a week on average.
  87 2011-09-26 00:43:23 <gmaxwell> Toawa: it's tagged on the end of the transaction, and the scripts on the inputs validate it.
  88 2011-09-26 00:44:35 <Toawa> So it's incorporated into the tx_outs?
  89 2011-09-26 00:45:24 <Toawa> no
  90 2011-09-26 00:45:55 <gmaxwell> No, it covers the outputs, it's part of the satisfaction of the input script.
  91 2011-09-26 00:45:59 <Toawa> I must be looking at the wrong struct; it wouldn't work in tx_out and the structs I'm looking at doesn't have anything else on the end
  92 2011-09-26 00:46:53 <gmaxwell> see the script sig attached to each input.
  93 2011-09-26 00:48:23 <Toawa> ok... Those are generated based on the transaction they're in? That makes sense...
  94 2011-09-26 00:48:45 <gmaxwell> Yes, they cover the whole thing with the other inputs masked out.
  95 2011-09-26 00:48:59 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  96 2011-09-26 00:49:23 <Toawa> Ok.. I was never clear on where those sigs came from; that explains it.
  97 2011-09-26 00:49:44 <gmaxwell> (makes it possible, e.g. for me to craft an incomplete transaction, give it to you and you provide an extra input to complete it with the relevant signature, e.g. joint payment)
  98 2011-09-26 00:51:04 <gmaxwell> heck for the attack you were suggesting, if it worked you wouldn't even have to mine at all, you'd simply modifiy the transactions inflight.. and if your modified versions got mined first you'd win. :)
  99 2011-09-26 00:51:49 <Toawa> Like I said, I'd have a hard time believing such a big oversight would be missed.. I just didn't understand the mechanism under it...
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 104 2011-09-26 01:05:55 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r5b40f9795b2b cgminer/main.c: Make sure we do not attempt to adl manage devices we have explicitly disabled.
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 111 2011-09-26 01:31:03 <devrandom> sipa: did you get a chance to try gitian building?
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 114 2011-09-26 01:38:40 <bx> hey guys
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 132 2011-09-26 02:43:02 <nanotube> bx: sup
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 140 2011-09-26 03:04:33 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 2c3cebd00f6f r125 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/test/RunLongPollOverloadClientTests.java: log change for lp overload test
 141 2011-09-26 03:04:34 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * ead8c036e955 r126 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (PoolServer.java conf/Conf.java): add optional jetty stats servlet on main url /stats/
 142 2011-09-26 03:04:34 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 9d761c911776 r127 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (12 files in 4 dirs): - refactoring started to abstract daemon interaction. Committing half way through because I need to switch branches yet again.
 143 2011-09-26 03:04:34 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * bbc24a448704 r128 / (7 files in 4 dirs): stuff
 144 2011-09-26 03:04:35 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * a691eb1b5d0b r129 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (PoolServer.java servlet/AbstractJsonRpcServlet.java):
 145 2011-09-26 03:04:35 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - patch to handle clients sending longpoll without trailing slash. This can
 146 2011-09-26 03:04:35 <CIA-101> poolserverj: result in the LP request being routed through the main handler and returning
 147 2011-09-26 03:04:35 <CIA-101> poolserverj: immediately setting up request spamming loop. This patch checks for the LP url
 148 2011-09-26 03:04:36 <CIA-101> poolserverj: from the main handler and redirects to the LP handler if it's found.
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 162 2011-09-26 03:51:04 <d33tah> sipa: you here?
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 166 2011-09-26 03:55:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r9162b2f1604a supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/ (index.php otcstyle.css): OTCWebsite: a bit of a layout change and a new sponsor
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 172 2011-09-26 03:59:40 <d33tah> it's kinda sleepy in here.
 173 2011-09-26 03:59:48 <imsaguy> a bit
 174 2011-09-26 04:00:14 <d33tah> which might suggest  that most of people are normal europeans :p
 175 2011-09-26 04:00:47 <d33tah> imsaguy, you familiar with Bitcoin's ECDSA code by any chance?
 176 2011-09-26 04:00:52 <imsaguy> nope
 177 2011-09-26 04:00:57 <d33tah> crap.
 178 2011-09-26 04:01:09 <imsaguy> ive been learning the wot stuff in -otc
 179 2011-09-26 04:01:16 <d33tah> otc?
 180 2011-09-26 04:01:36 <imsaguy> person to person market exchange based off a web of trust
 181 2011-09-26 04:01:40 <imsaguy> #bitcoin-otc
 182 2011-09-26 04:01:53 <imsaguy> not a market, just a person to person exchange
 183 2011-09-26 04:02:59 <d33tah> why would someone prefer trust to a person prior to stuff like mtgox?
 184 2011-09-26 04:03:27 <imsaguy> in otc, you see a lot of other transactions besides fiat to bitcoin
 185 2011-09-26 04:03:43 <imsaguy> giftcards, paypal, etc
 186 2011-09-26 04:04:02 <d33tah> hm, that sounds reasonable
 187 2011-09-26 04:04:13 <d33tah> i thought mtgox allows paypal too, though
 188 2011-09-26 04:04:18 <gmaxwell> You can also sometimes get better deals due to market dynamics and the lack of mtgox fees.
 189 2011-09-26 04:04:18 <imsaguy> not that I know of
 190 2011-09-26 04:04:26 <gmaxwell> No, mtgox doesn't allow paypal.
 191 2011-09-26 04:04:36 <imsaguy> there's less time, because you don't have to transfer in and out
 192 2011-09-26 04:04:43 <imsaguy> so you can react quicker
 193 2011-09-26 04:04:53 <d33tah> interesting. never heard of it.
 194 2011-09-26 04:05:06 <d33tah> atm i'm far to getting my first bitcoin though
 195 2011-09-26 04:05:12 <d33tah> got like 0.1 BTC atm
 196 2011-09-26 04:05:14 <imsaguy> lol
 197 2011-09-26 04:05:20 <imsaguy> thats a start
 198 2011-09-26 04:05:29 <d33tah> i'm cpu mining, just because i'm too greedy to buy BTC :d
 199 2011-09-26 04:05:37 <imsaguy> no gpu?
 200 2011-09-26 04:05:46 <d33tah> no OCL GPU
 201 2011-09-26 04:06:00 <nanotube> d33tah: are you paying for electricity?
 202 2011-09-26 04:06:05 <d33tah> i once wondered if it was possible to use non-OCL GPU to mine bitcoins
 203 2011-09-26 04:06:11 <d33tah> nanotube: i shall let you guess
 204 2011-09-26 04:06:13 <d33tah> :d
 205 2011-09-26 04:06:23 <d33tah> i wouldn't be mining if i was
 206 2011-09-26 04:06:31 <nanotube> heh well, people have been known to spend a dollar to save a dime
 207 2011-09-26 04:06:36 <imsaguy> no u
 208 2011-09-26 04:06:40 <nanotube> so... never hurts to ask :)
 209 2011-09-26 04:06:48 <imsaguy> luke-jr has been quiet as of late
 210 2011-09-26 04:06:57 <d33tah> anyway
 211 2011-09-26 04:07:00 <d33tah> 05:56:05 < d33tah> i once wondered if it was possible to use non-OCL GPU to mine bitcoins
 212 2011-09-26 04:07:12 <imsaguy> once implies you no longer do
 213 2011-09-26 04:07:14 <nanotube> yes, and then what happened? :)
 214 2011-09-26 04:07:23 <gmaxwell> well, and who cares if you're spending $1 extra per month to leave a miner on some modest machine in order to make a few bitcents. It's not like thats going to break the bank.
 215 2011-09-26 04:07:23 <doublec> there are cuda miners
 216 2011-09-26 04:07:25 <luke-jr> working on brain/dream miner
 217 2011-09-26 04:07:26 <d33tah> like, drawing particular shapes with GPU, then calculating their length or something
 218 2011-09-26 04:07:51 <luke-jr> expected yield 1 petahash/sec
 219 2011-09-26 04:07:51 <imsaguy> there you are
 220 2011-09-26 04:08:11 <d33tah> anyway, luke-jr, you think it's possible to implement what i'm thinking?
 221 2011-09-26 04:08:20 <gmaxwell> Show me the person who only ever gets water at a restaurant because the soda is super overpriced and I'll show you a person who can properly criticize people for a little cpu mining. :)
 222 2011-09-26 04:08:20 <luke-jr> I don't read minds
 223 2011-09-26 04:08:26 <d33tah> i don't mean a huge increase, but any would be cool
 224 2011-09-26 04:08:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: um, everyone?
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 226 2011-09-26 04:09:00 <gmaxwell> pshaw, fairly few people do that.
 227 2011-09-26 04:09:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: everyone I eat out with
 228 2011-09-26 04:09:19 <d33tah> so do I :d
 229 2011-09-26 04:09:21 <forrestv> i do that
 230 2011-09-26 04:09:25 <d33tah> haha
 231 2011-09-26 04:09:29 <d33tah> the channel suddenly got live
 232 2011-09-26 04:09:31 <luke-jr> of course, we don't drink soda either mostly
 233 2011-09-26 04:09:36 <gmaxwell> hah. Weirdos what the hell are you doing eating out if you care to optimize that much?
 234 2011-09-26 04:09:39 <d33tah> luke-jr, you familiar with Bitcoin's ECDSA?
 235 2011-09-26 04:09:47 <luke-jr> d33tah: no
 236 2011-09-26 04:09:51 <d33tah> shit
 237 2011-09-26 04:09:57 <d33tah> thanks for answer though
 238 2011-09-26 04:10:03 <nanotube> gmaxwell: i don't do soda generally. :P
 239 2011-09-26 04:10:11 <gmaxwell> d33tah: you shouldn't ask to ask questions on IRC, you should just ask.
 240 2011-09-26 04:10:31 <d33tah> hm
 241 2011-09-26 04:10:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: eating out is usually more of a short vacation
 242 2011-09-26 04:10:35 <gmaxwell> I'm sure as hell not going to commit myself to playing an openended ecdsa professor, but I might know the answer to a specific question. :)
 243 2011-09-26 04:10:49 <d33tah> i abandoned bitcoinbounties.org for now and i'm working on another project
 244 2011-09-26 04:11:54 <d33tah> in general, it's meant to secure your wallet by allowing you to put the private key on a dedicated chip - when there's a transaction, you are prompted for a password protecting the chip, then press the button on it, and the chip signs the transaction, without telling the potentially-compromised PC what the privkey is
 245 2011-09-26 04:12:11 <casascius> what kind of chip?
 246 2011-09-26 04:12:34 <d33tah> Arduino. already got a code from someone41 that could compile and would be a good start
 247 2011-09-26 04:12:49 <d33tah> the problem is I need some testing code that would tell me if the signatures are ok
 248 2011-09-26 04:13:17 <d33tah> i, with help of sipa, managed to extract all the parameters to ECDSA_sign() and printf them
 249 2011-09-26 04:13:23 <d33tah> now I need a working ECDSA_verify code
 250 2011-09-26 04:13:57 <d33tah> http://wklej.org/id/599540/ - that's what I got so far, don't bother to steal the privkey, it's testnet
 251 2011-09-26 04:14:00 <luke-jr> d33tah: useless unless it displays the total inputs
 252 2011-09-26 04:14:13 <luke-jr> d33tah: dude, let the crackers waste their time
 253 2011-09-26 04:14:15 <nanotube> and total outputs
 254 2011-09-26 04:14:23 <d33tah> luke-jr: i thought of it. it will.
 255 2011-09-26 04:14:27 <luke-jr> nanotube: no point to that
 256 2011-09-26 04:14:41 <luke-jr> nanotube: unless you're gonna display the full address of outputs too
 257 2011-09-26 04:14:54 <d33tah> PC can be compromised and show wrong numbers
 258 2011-09-26 04:15:10 <nanotube> luke-jr: really? so you're ok with "accidentally" sending your bitcoins to $wrongaddress, or sending $fraction to right address, and the rest to minerfees?
 259 2011-09-26 04:15:33 <nanotube> i'd prefer to see total inputs, output addresses, and associated amounts
 260 2011-09-26 04:15:37 <luke-jr> nanotube: no, but that's a different level of security
 261 2011-09-26 04:15:37 <d33tah> but if it was forced to tell a total number of outputs and press a physical button on the chip adequate number of times, it could be safe
 262 2011-09-26 04:15:49 <d33tah> i understand outputs, but why inputs?
 263 2011-09-26 04:15:49 <nanotube> right
 264 2011-09-26 04:15:55 <nanotube> so you know how much you're sending
 265 2011-09-26 04:16:09 <luke-jr> d33tah: inputs is what it costs you. outputs are irrelevant unless you have some way to validate the output addresses
 266 2011-09-26 04:16:15 <luke-jr> d33tah: which in general you don't
 267 2011-09-26 04:16:24 <d33tah> well, validation would be an user confirmation
 268 2011-09-26 04:16:28 <nanotube> otherwise... an attack could take 1000 of your btc, send 5btc to an address, then send the rest to nowhere.
 269 2011-09-26 04:16:36 <luke-jr> also note inputs will be difficult, since it requires a full wallet :/
 270 2011-09-26 04:16:38 <d33tah> valid point
 271 2011-09-26 04:16:57 <luke-jr> or at least, it requires a copy of the previous txns
 272 2011-09-26 04:17:04 <d33tah> anyway, i have an idea on how to protect it and now i need a working testing code
 273 2011-09-26 04:17:08 <luke-jr> d33tah: the user has no way to validate the outputs
 274 2011-09-26 04:17:34 <nanotube> why not? you can easily check to see if the address you're sending to is the one you meant to send to
 275 2011-09-26 04:17:42 <d33tah> its number. when you send a transaction from A to B and are forced to confirm a transaction from A to B and C, you might suspect there's something evil going on.
 276 2011-09-26 04:17:43 <luke-jr> nanotube: how do you know where you meant to send?
 277 2011-09-26 04:18:28 <luke-jr> nanotube: 99% of cases right now, the same computer you're sending from is the one telling you the target address
 278 2011-09-26 04:18:38 <nanotube> luke-jr: good point :)
 279 2011-09-26 04:18:59 <luke-jr> so totalInputAmount minus totalOutputsToMyOwnPrivkeys
 280 2011-09-26 04:19:08 <luke-jr> is the most useful info
 281 2011-09-26 04:19:15 <nanotube> i suppose that issue should be addressed as well, out of band validation of target addresses
 282 2011-09-26 04:19:15 zeiris is now known as amtal
 283 2011-09-26 04:19:30 <d33tah> that's pretty creepy
 284 2011-09-26 04:19:42 <d33tah> i just figured out a trojan could replace all addresses you see in your browser
 285 2011-09-26 04:19:48 <nanotube> yes
 286 2011-09-26 04:19:52 <nanotube> that's what luke was alluding to
 287 2011-09-26 04:19:54 <d33tah> so wherever you send the cash to, it goes to the evil guy
 288 2011-09-26 04:20:01 Lopuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 289 2011-09-26 04:20:09 <d33tah> using images instead of text sounds like some solution
 290 2011-09-26 04:20:20 <nanotube> trojan can change images too you know
 291 2011-09-26 04:20:32 <d33tah> but basically, the computer is a bitch of the one who owned it :p
 292 2011-09-26 04:20:32 <nanotube> if your computer is rooted, basically you cannot trust your eyes
 293 2011-09-26 04:20:36 <nanotube> right
 294 2011-09-26 04:20:37 <luke-jr> really, the best you can guarantee is that you're only sending <X> amount
 295 2011-09-26 04:20:58 gjs278 has joined
 296 2011-09-26 04:21:05 <luke-jr> if done right, you can get a hardware wallet usable on any bitcoin-enabled PC
 297 2011-09-26 04:21:07 <nanotube> without sideband validation, indeed that seems correct.
 298 2011-09-26 04:21:16 <d33tah> anyway, atm i'd just like to bring this project to this stage, later perhaps enhance it any more
 299 2011-09-26 04:21:21 <d33tah> could anyone help me with ECDSA?
 300 2011-09-26 04:21:28 <luke-jr> or, for example, plug it into the merchant's own payment system, and just approve the total
 301 2011-09-26 04:21:45 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 7c71fc909944 r130 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/servlet/MgmtInterfaceServlet.java: - add threadDump method to mgmt interface
 302 2011-09-26 04:22:20 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 303 2011-09-26 04:23:32 <d33tah> i guess i'll need to wait for sipa guy then
 304 2011-09-26 04:23:36 <casascius> you know what would make a great hardware wallet...with a screen and keypad and even a built in printer...
 305 2011-09-26 04:23:49 <d33tah> sounds hardcore
 306 2011-09-26 04:23:50 <casascius> for $50-$70...
 307 2011-09-26 04:24:02 <casascius> the obsolete OMNI 3200 credit card machine on eBay
 308 2011-09-26 04:24:41 <d33tah> the arduino itself is 35$
 309 2011-09-26 04:24:59 eoss has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 310 2011-09-26 04:24:59 <casascius> those credit card machines are available cheap because businesses upgrade to the latest
 311 2011-09-26 04:25:07 <d33tah> hm!
 312 2011-09-26 04:25:08 <casascius> and yet they are perfectly good hardware
 313 2011-09-26 04:25:12 <d33tah> the arduino could use a VGA monitor
 314 2011-09-26 04:25:27 <d33tah> then two buttons to just confirm or decline...
 315 2011-09-26 04:25:58 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 316 2011-09-26 04:26:01 <d33tah> ANYWAY
 317 2011-09-26 04:26:05 <d33tah> i need the ECDSA code! :P
 318 2011-09-26 04:26:55 <d33tah> gmaxwell: have you by any chance looked at the URL?
 319 2011-09-26 04:37:06 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 320 2011-09-26 04:41:13 WakiMiko_ has joined
 321 2011-09-26 04:41:14 <d33tah> i think i finally found a good irssi theme
 322 2011-09-26 04:41:56 <d33tah> btw, when was the 0.4 released? like yesterday?
 323 2011-09-26 04:43:33 <imsaguy> a few days ago
 324 2011-09-26 04:44:26 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 325 2011-09-26 04:44:42 <d33tah> i must have missed it
 326 2011-09-26 04:44:44 Kardos_ is now known as Kardos
 327 2011-09-26 04:44:47 <d33tah> is it finally qt?
 328 2011-09-26 04:46:27 <d33tah> it looks like not
 329 2011-09-26 04:46:46 <imsaguy> there was work/discussion on it
 330 2011-09-26 04:46:51 <imsaguy> but I don't know the status
 331 2011-09-26 04:48:12 <d33tah> that's a pity
 332 2011-09-26 04:48:29 <d33tah> i really don't like wx
 333 2011-09-26 04:48:53 <d33tah> i don't understand why it was chosen to be in guiminer aswell
 334 2011-09-26 04:52:57 <Disposition> qt isn't planned for .4
 335 2011-09-26 04:53:06 <d33tah> that's news for me
 336 2011-09-26 04:53:10 <d33tah> when is it planned then?
 337 2011-09-26 04:53:15 <Disposition> .5?
 338 2011-09-26 04:53:21 <d33tah> or not? :P
 339 2011-09-26 04:53:38 <Disposition> afiak there wasn't enough time to put qt for 0.4 release
 340 2011-09-26 04:54:35 <d33tah> it's good it's at least planned
 341 2011-09-26 04:54:55 <d33tah> just curious, why did you guys dismissed gtk?
 342 2011-09-26 04:55:57 <c_k> .5 is planned to be released by the end of next month
 343 2011-09-26 04:56:02 <d33tah> whoa!
 344 2011-09-26 04:56:04 <d33tah> that's speed
 345 2011-09-26 04:56:22 <d33tah> could somebody highlight me? i'm testing an irssi skin
 346 2011-09-26 04:56:32 <c_k> d33tah: which skin?
 347 2011-09-26 04:56:40 <d33tah> initrd
 348 2011-09-26 04:56:58 <d33tah> and it just got screwed away after it burnt my eyes :p
 349 2011-09-26 04:57:10 <d33tah> the highlight was in an evil yellow
 350 2011-09-26 04:57:12 <d33tah> paaain. :p
 351 2011-09-26 04:57:44 <imsaguy> make your own skin
 352 2011-09-26 04:58:00 <Disposition> qt was a seperate branch anyways, when it's ported it'll just be merged
 353 2011-09-26 04:58:10 <d33tah> that's what i'm planning if none of the 173 skins works
 354 2011-09-26 04:58:24 <d33tah> the default one would be just about the dull but perfect
 355 2011-09-26 04:58:26 <Disposition> :O you gonna manually test all of them? .-.
 356 2011-09-26 04:58:30 <d33tah> if it wasn't for the color of my nick in the logs
 357 2011-09-26 04:58:43 <d33tah> got some script that would do the job automatically for me?
 358 2011-09-26 04:58:46 <Disposition> then why not just change the highlight and use the default one .-.
 359 2011-09-26 04:58:58 <d33tah> i made one to downlaod them and list them, but got none to test them
 360 2011-09-26 04:59:00 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 361 2011-09-26 04:59:09 <d33tah> well, because i'm hoping to accidentally find something cooler
 362 2011-09-26 05:00:27 <d33tah> now testing trakhel
 363 2011-09-26 05:00:53 <d33tah> number 31 on my list :p
 364 2011-09-26 05:01:26 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 365 2011-09-26 05:02:19 <d33tah> hmmm
 366 2011-09-26 05:02:31 <d33tah> since we're not talking of anything in particular right now
 367 2011-09-26 05:02:51 <d33tah> how about you guys enter http://bitcoinbounties.org - my current project - and tell me what do you feel about it?
 368 2011-09-26 05:04:29 <luke-jr> cute, cgminer and pushpool conflict ;)
 369 2011-09-26 05:04:42 <luke-jr> d33tah: I feel it's abandoned
 370 2011-09-26 05:04:45 <luke-jr> [00:00:50] <d33tah> i abandoned bitcoinbounties.org for now and i'm working on another project
 371 2011-09-26 05:04:56 <d33tah> because of no feedback
 372 2011-09-26 05:04:58 <luke-jr> :P
 373 2011-09-26 05:05:14 <d33tah> if I had any attention at all, i could develop it
 374 2011-09-26 05:05:33 peck has joined
 375 2011-09-26 05:05:40 <d33tah> it's cool you're reading my lines anyway :d
 376 2011-09-26 05:06:25 pickett has joined
 377 2011-09-26 05:19:27 magn3ts has joined
 378 2011-09-26 05:21:19 Daniel0108 has joined
 379 2011-09-26 05:22:42 <Disposition> d33tah: hire a web designer :3
 380 2011-09-26 05:23:23 <Disposition> I think it might be nice to put up a project list for all the projects related to bitcoin, and people can fund it/donate to it accordingly.
 381 2011-09-26 05:23:38 <Disposition> since the point of bitcoin is to make payments easy anyways
 382 2011-09-26 05:24:05 <d33tah> Disposition: you mean, create bounties for people and let them know they are already there?
 383 2011-09-26 05:24:19 <d33tah> and i wouldn't hire a web designer since it costs :p
 384 2011-09-26 05:26:54 <d33tah> you think it wouldn't get any attention with this look?
 385 2011-09-26 05:27:32 <Disposition> yes
 386 2011-09-26 05:27:50 <Disposition> you either make something simple that looks pretty, or you make something looks simple with a lot of features
 387 2011-09-26 05:28:12 <Disposition> e.g. blockexplorer
 388 2011-09-26 05:28:20 <d33tah> okay
 389 2011-09-26 05:28:27 <Disposition> d33tah: not exactly, about creating bounties
 390 2011-09-26 05:28:31 <d33tah> so, it just can't be ugly?
 391 2011-09-26 05:28:35 <d33tah> that ugly, i mean?
 392 2011-09-26 05:28:48 <Disposition> d33tah: yeah.. I mean that's rather basic requirement imo
 393 2011-09-26 05:29:06 <d33tah> http://173.0.53.16:81/
 394 2011-09-26 05:29:08 <Disposition> i was leaning more towards the list projects so community becomes aware of it
 395 2011-09-26 05:29:11 <d33tah> do you think that would do?
 396 2011-09-26 05:29:12 <Disposition> so people can fund it
 397 2011-09-26 05:29:22 <d33tah> oh, just list of projects?
 398 2011-09-26 05:29:28 <d33tah> not bounties, just projects to donate?
 399 2011-09-26 05:29:33 <Disposition> both.
 400 2011-09-26 05:29:47 <Disposition> why can't they donate/add to existing bounties.
 401 2011-09-26 05:29:54 <d33tah> they can
 402 2011-09-26 05:29:57 <d33tah> they just need to register
 403 2011-09-26 05:29:58 <Disposition> right.
 404 2011-09-26 05:30:07 <d33tah> or even not, if they donate anonymously
 405 2011-09-26 05:30:13 <d33tah> you can try to do it, just with testnet
 406 2011-09-26 05:30:31 <Disposition> it looks better now, I just feel the boxes table is out of place
 407 2011-09-26 05:30:36 <Disposition> since the rest of the design is more fluid
 408 2011-09-26 05:30:43 <Disposition> the table looks edgy
 409 2011-09-26 05:31:15 <d33tah> good point, never noticed it
 410 2011-09-26 05:31:22 <d33tah> but, would it do, in your opinion?
 411 2011-09-26 05:31:32 <Disposition> for now yeah.
 412 2011-09-26 05:31:40 <Disposition> maybe ability to add a description page
 413 2011-09-26 05:31:42 <Disposition> per project
 414 2011-09-26 05:31:51 <Disposition> e.g. jquery pop-up or osmething
 415 2011-09-26 05:32:06 <Disposition> or drop-down
 416 2011-09-26 05:32:16 <d33tah> like - add a 'project' field, add your own projects that could gather donations, and each project can have its own description?
 417 2011-09-26 05:32:16 <Disposition> like expand the <span>
 418 2011-09-26 05:32:27 <Disposition> mhm
 419 2011-09-26 05:32:49 <Disposition> or you can even list other projects that's not really affiliated with bitcoin bounties
 420 2011-09-26 05:32:53 <Disposition> and point people to it
 421 2011-09-26 05:33:06 <Disposition> so it would serve to the community as to what projects related to bitcoin is out there
 422 2011-09-26 05:34:23 <d33tah> that's a shitload of work, actually
 423 2011-09-26 05:34:27 <Disposition> lol.
 424 2011-09-26 05:34:42 <d33tah> i wonder what could I do to make it user attractive as fast as possible
 425 2011-09-26 05:34:54 <d33tah> see, i've been working on what you can currently see for like, 3 weeks
 426 2011-09-26 05:35:14 <Disposition> well regardless I think you need a project description section
 427 2011-09-26 05:35:16 <d33tah> i could work more, but i'd love to see it finally behave like a complete 'walking skeleton'
 428 2011-09-26 05:35:19 <Disposition> so people know wtf the bounty is for
 429 2011-09-26 05:35:25 <Disposition> or event link to forum thread/websites
 430 2011-09-26 05:35:25 <d33tah> wouldn't bounty description do?
 431 2011-09-26 05:35:35 <Disposition> yeah that would do
 432 2011-09-26 05:35:37 <d33tah> oh, that's what I was thinking of actually
 433 2011-09-26 05:35:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r21c2bc469fb0 cgminer/ (README main.c miner.h): Make it possible to set the intensity on a per-card basis, dynamic or static values.
 434 2011-09-26 05:35:47 <d33tah> anyway, there is bounty description section now
 435 2011-09-26 05:35:53 <d33tah> you can see it if you click on a bounty
 436 2011-09-26 05:36:00 <d33tah> i invite you to try yourself :)
 437 2011-09-26 05:36:06 <Disposition> imo you should make it all in one page :P
 438 2011-09-26 05:36:09 <Disposition> via drop downs
 439 2011-09-26 05:36:17 marf_away has joined
 440 2011-09-26 05:36:24 <d33tah> i'd need to see some mockup
 441 2011-09-26 05:36:34 Daniel0108 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 442 2011-09-26 05:36:42 <d33tah> how about bubles when you hover over a project on the list?
 443 2011-09-26 05:36:50 wolfspraul has joined
 444 2011-09-26 05:36:57 <d33tah> bubbles*
 445 2011-09-26 05:37:07 wolfspraul has quit (Client Quit)
 446 2011-09-26 05:37:09 <Disposition> like this http://jrd89.com/codecanyon/quickfaqs/
 447 2011-09-26 05:37:35 wolfspraul has joined
 448 2011-09-26 05:38:09 <Disposition> put the donate button and submit or w/e all under it
 449 2011-09-26 05:38:18 <d33tah> hm, on one hand, it could be cool
 450 2011-09-26 05:38:28 <Disposition> I just tried to donate to one, first I'd click on the project -> the click donate -> then login/ see address
 451 2011-09-26 05:38:30 <d33tah> on another, putting description there sounds risky
 452 2011-09-26 05:38:31 <Disposition> that's too much :3
 453 2011-09-26 05:38:50 <Disposition> why would it be risky?
 454 2011-09-26 05:39:01 <d33tah> there's quite a lot of text there
 455 2011-09-26 05:39:10 <Disposition> and? :3
 456 2011-09-26 05:39:16 <Disposition> it's hidden
 457 2011-09-26 05:39:19 <Disposition> unless click'd on
 458 2011-09-26 05:39:23 <d33tah> or got no js
 459 2011-09-26 05:40:26 <d33tah> anyway, the idea is cool
 460 2011-09-26 05:40:32 <d33tah> but it doesn't sound like a killer feature to me
 461 2011-09-26 05:40:47 <Disposition> it's much simplier than your site design now
 462 2011-09-26 05:41:16 <d33tah> ok, and do you think it would magically make people like the site more?
 463 2011-09-26 05:41:17 <Disposition> it's a list of bounties -> click to expand for desc and donate button -> repeat per bounty
 464 2011-09-26 05:41:43 <Disposition> I just went through it, I need to click and load 3 pages to be able to donate
 465 2011-09-26 05:41:48 <Disposition> it felt un-needed
 466 2011-09-26 05:41:49 <d33tah> i mean, i feel it's obviously lacking some serious feature since people are not willing to test
 467 2011-09-26 05:42:07 <d33tah> you are most definitely right about the donating
 468 2011-09-26 05:42:09 <Disposition> if you want to keep it simple that would be the way to do it imo
 469 2011-09-26 05:42:24 <Disposition> or hell you can put the donate on the first page in another cell
 470 2011-09-26 05:42:33 <Disposition> and keep the description page as it is
 471 2011-09-26 05:43:01 <d33tah> okay, it's on my TODO list
 472 2011-09-26 05:43:02 <Disposition> less navigation the better
 473 2011-09-26 05:43:39 <d33tah> would you use such website yourself?
 474 2011-09-26 05:44:13 <Disposition> I think there might be more demands for projects who need donations than people want to add to bounties
 475 2011-09-26 05:44:16 <Disposition> that's just me though
 476 2011-09-26 05:44:25 <Disposition> but yeah I would use it
 477 2011-09-26 05:44:42 <Disposition> would be nice to get a sense of what the community wants
 478 2011-09-26 05:44:56 <d33tah> do you think testing it in testnet is ok?
 479 2011-09-26 05:45:21 <Disposition> i don't see a problem with it
 480 2011-09-26 05:45:25 <Disposition> are you holding on to the bounty atm?
 481 2011-09-26 05:46:47 <d33tah> what do you mean?
 482 2011-09-26 05:47:02 <Disposition> like the bounty, where's the bitcoins going to
 483 2011-09-26 05:47:10 <Disposition> you are holding onto it yar?
 484 2011-09-26 05:47:32 <Disposition> also draw some inspiration from this http://feature-request.jamesfairhurst.co.uk/
 485 2011-09-26 05:47:37 <d33tah> you mean, do I control the accounts the money comes in to?
 486 2011-09-26 05:47:57 <Disposition> d33tah: mhm
 487 2011-09-26 05:48:10 <d33tah> yeah, I do
 488 2011-09-26 05:48:16 <d33tah> the code is open though
 489 2011-09-26 05:48:17 <Disposition> then use testnet for now.
 490 2011-09-26 05:48:33 <d33tah> i wanted to keep the code opensource to convince users it's safe
 491 2011-09-26 05:48:41 <Disposition> of course.
 492 2011-09-26 05:48:43 <d33tah> obviously it's not safe now, because the code is crappy
 493 2011-09-26 05:48:48 <Disposition> it doesn't mean you can't run with it
 494 2011-09-26 05:48:57 <d33tah> but perhaps if they helped me fix the code...
 495 2011-09-26 05:49:00 <d33tah> hm, yeah, right
 496 2011-09-26 05:49:07 <d33tah> but then i'd get called a scammer right away
 497 2011-09-26 05:49:19 <d33tah> i'm hoping the trust is a matter of time
 498 2011-09-26 05:49:30 <Disposition> i personally don't want to deal with anyform of escrow
 499 2011-09-26 05:49:54 <d33tah> they would see they can donate 0.01BTC and not lose it and it actually goes to the guy we meant it to, next time it might be 0.02BTC
 500 2011-09-26 05:50:05 <d33tah> Disposition: they both have their cons and pros
 501 2011-09-26 05:50:13 <Disposition> of course, hence I said personally.
 502 2011-09-26 05:50:28 <d33tah> such a system is safer for the devs who get the bounties
 503 2011-09-26 05:50:35 <d33tah> the problem is you are pretty much right
 504 2011-09-26 05:51:06 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 505 2011-09-26 05:51:13 <d33tah> i have no idea how to guarantee i'm not running away with the cash
 506 2011-09-26 05:51:35 <Disposition> might want to wait until multi-sign becomes available
 507 2011-09-26 05:51:42 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 508 2011-09-26 05:51:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 146930 | Current Difficulty: 1755425.3203287 | Next Difficulty At Block: 147167 | Next Difficulty In: 237 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 40 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1689539.48202579 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.75326922427
 509 2011-09-26 05:52:06 <d33tah> how exactly would it work?
 510 2011-09-26 05:52:10 <Disposition> because by then it becomes much more appealing to sign money to you
 511 2011-09-26 05:52:50 <Disposition> then they can like say they'll put this much bounty in
 512 2011-09-26 05:52:59 <Disposition> but don't need to pay until project is done
 513 2011-09-26 05:53:22 <d33tah> hm
 514 2011-09-26 05:53:27 <d33tah> how does multisign work?
 515 2011-09-26 05:53:41 <Disposition> it would require two signatures as oppose to one in this case
 516 2011-09-26 05:53:51 <Disposition> e.g. you + whoever is putting up the bounty
 517 2011-09-26 05:54:04 <d33tah> so, let's say there are three groups
 518 2011-09-26 05:54:17 <d33tah> the devs, who get the bounty, the users, who donate, and me, as an intermediary
 519 2011-09-26 05:54:23 <Disposition> I mean the escrow 2 out of 3 key can always work.
 520 2011-09-26 05:54:25 <Disposition> yeah
 521 2011-09-26 05:54:29 <d33tah> the user sends me the money by giving one of the keys, right?
 522 2011-09-26 05:54:42 <Disposition> that design might be better, HOWEVER it won't really work if the "dev" changes
 523 2011-09-26 05:54:46 <Disposition> since anyone can claim the bounty
 524 2011-09-26 05:54:49 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 525 2011-09-26 05:55:02 <d33tah> is it me that has control who claims the bounty?
 526 2011-09-26 05:55:04 <d33tah> or rather
 527 2011-09-26 05:55:06 <d33tah> who gets it
 528 2011-09-26 05:55:21 <Disposition> well that's part of the issue you have to solve if you want to run bitcoin bounty :P
 529 2011-09-26 05:55:30 <d33tah> atm it's like this
 530 2011-09-26 05:55:50 <d33tah> users collect the money to temporary accounts
 531 2011-09-26 05:56:07 <d33tah> then the money is transferred to the winner by me
 532 2011-09-26 05:56:27 <d33tah> i don't know how could multi-sign help here
 533 2011-09-26 05:56:40 piotrp has joined
 534 2011-09-26 05:57:06 <Disposition> well multi-sign can put you and the donator on the tx
 535 2011-09-26 05:57:11 <Disposition> so none of you have access to this money
 536 2011-09-26 05:57:16 <Disposition> unless both of you release it
 537 2011-09-26 05:57:20 gwillen is now known as brollen
 538 2011-09-26 05:57:26 <Disposition> so even if you "run with the moneyz"
 539 2011-09-26 05:57:29 <Disposition> you can spend it
 540 2011-09-26 05:57:31 <Disposition> can't*
 541 2011-09-26 05:57:43 <d33tah> and it's locked?
 542 2011-09-26 05:58:26 <Disposition> mmm, where's that gist
 543 2011-09-26 05:58:45 AStove has joined
 544 2011-09-26 05:58:46 <d33tah> i feel too sleepy to read technical gists
 545 2011-09-26 05:59:22 <d33tah> anyway, if it's not both of us that release the money, it's locked, right?
 546 2011-09-26 05:59:44 <Disposition> there we go https://gist.github.com/dba89537d352d591eb36
 547 2011-09-26 05:59:49 <Disposition> d33tah: yar
 548 2011-09-26 06:00:00 <d33tah> okay
 549 2011-09-26 06:00:09 piotrp has quit (Client Quit)
 550 2011-09-26 06:00:24 <Disposition> the problem is since anyone can claim the bounty
 551 2011-09-26 06:00:29 <Disposition> this won't work as well as I imagined.
 552 2011-09-26 06:01:52 <d33tah> so the scenario changes to: user donates the 'not-released' money, i list it as a confirmed budget of the project, then there is a bounty solution, users vote to allow him to get the bounty, and the winner gets the money only after all of the multisign users agree to send it?
 553 2011-09-26 06:02:32 <Disposition> yeah.
 554 2011-09-26 06:02:33 pickett has joined
 555 2011-09-26 06:02:49 piotrp has joined
 556 2011-09-26 06:02:53 <d33tah> so, the user has a choice to either never send the money and lose it or donate a project provided that he trusts me (and if he didn't like the bounty solution, at most he donated the wrong solution)
 557 2011-09-26 06:03:02 <Disposition> "all" or w/e the multi-sign is lined up for
 558 2011-09-26 06:03:07 <Disposition> like 3 out of 6 signatures
 559 2011-09-26 06:03:08 <Disposition> or w/e
 560 2011-09-26 06:03:17 <d33tah> i'd line it up for just the user and me
 561 2011-09-26 06:03:22 <Disposition> d33tah: mhm.
 562 2011-09-26 06:03:32 <d33tah> the more users there are, the more difficult it would be to get all the signatures
 563 2011-09-26 06:03:38 brollen is now known as gwillen
 564 2011-09-26 06:03:40 <d33tah> and i have my own voting system already
 565 2011-09-26 06:04:02 <Disposition> well it's not like it's gonna be one gaint tx
 566 2011-09-26 06:04:05 <d33tah> you can see it on bitcoinbounties.org - it's waaay far from perfect, but it's a start
 567 2011-09-26 06:04:08 <Disposition> each user will have their own multi-sign
 568 2011-09-26 06:05:00 <Disposition> still, I regret suggesting it since the claim voting system overules this anyways
 569 2011-09-26 06:05:25 TransistOrg has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 570 2011-09-26 06:05:40 TransistOrg has joined
 571 2011-09-26 06:05:41 <Disposition> but it's something to think about :)
 572 2011-09-26 06:07:01 <d33tah> i think i like it
 573 2011-09-26 06:07:15 <d33tah> it doesn't completely get overruled by claims
 574 2011-09-26 06:07:37 <d33tah> btw, i couldn't find the word while i was coding (i'm not native english speaker), so i replaced it with 'commit'
 575 2011-09-26 06:08:08 <d33tah> i guess that 'submit a commit' doesn't sound good, but it was the best i could think of back then
 576 2011-09-26 06:08:33 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 577 2011-09-26 06:08:50 <d33tah> what do you think?
 578 2011-09-26 06:08:54 <Disposition> d33tah: yeah my english is not the greatest either :P
 579 2011-09-26 06:09:15 <Disposition> commit sounds for to me though
 580 2011-09-26 06:09:23 <d33tah> but you drew my attention to the word 'claim', which sounds better
 581 2011-09-26 06:09:35 <d33tah> 'for' like 'good'? :P
 582 2011-09-26 06:11:32 <Dagger3> "submit a commit" does sound pretty terrible, but it's hard to suggest an alternative without knowing what you're doing
 583 2011-09-26 06:11:54 <Dagger3> (which I can't be bothered to work out, since I just got up and you've been talking for 2 hours :p)
 584 2011-09-26 06:12:16 <d33tah> well, as I said, i couldn't find a word
 585 2011-09-26 06:12:20 <Disposition> well claim is the act of reciving something
 586 2011-09-26 06:12:26 <Disposition> bounty is the loot
 587 2011-09-26 06:12:27 <d33tah> and i meant an activity of sending to the bounty system a solution to the bounty
 588 2011-09-26 06:12:35 <Disposition> so you might as well say "add to bounty"
 589 2011-09-26 06:12:44 <Disposition> oh
 590 2011-09-26 06:12:46 <d33tah> which i would associate with donating
 591 2011-09-26 06:12:48 <Disposition> then claim works fine.
 592 2011-09-26 06:12:56 <d33tah> so, 'submit a claim'?
 593 2011-09-26 06:13:00 <Disposition> no, lol
 594 2011-09-26 06:13:02 <Disposition> claim the bounty
 595 2011-09-26 06:13:06 <Disposition> or submit solution
 596 2011-09-26 06:13:14 <d33tah> mkay
 597 2011-09-26 06:13:19 <d33tah> then 'vote the solutions'?
 598 2011-09-26 06:13:30 <d33tah> i have to grep my code to see in how many places did use the word 'commit'
 599 2011-09-26 06:13:45 KArmitt has joined
 600 2011-09-26 06:13:48 <d33tah> just to be sure, Dagger3, are you a native speaker?
 601 2011-09-26 06:15:23 TransistOrg has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 602 2011-09-26 06:15:39 TransistOrg has joined
 603 2011-09-26 06:15:50 <Dagger3> I am, but like I said, I have no context
 604 2011-09-26 06:16:05 ThomasV has joined
 605 2011-09-26 06:16:50 <d33tah> Dagger3: is that not enough of a context for you?
 606 2011-09-26 06:17:04 <d33tah> the stuff i just said once you told me you just got up?
 607 2011-09-26 06:20:04 <Dagger3> ok, turning my brain on... when you say "sending to the bounty system a solution to the bounty", does that mean you then receive the bounty funds if your solution is valid?
 608 2011-09-26 06:21:20 <d33tah> nope, it's not receiving it yet
 609 2011-09-26 06:21:40 <d33tah> it's just sending a file
 610 2011-09-26 06:21:52 <d33tah> that would be a solution to the problem stated in the bounty description
 611 2011-09-26 06:22:00 <d33tah> once users like the solution, they would vote upon it
 612 2011-09-26 06:22:28 <d33tah> and if it gets enough votes, the bounty is paid out and the solution is submitted for merging with the project's main tree
 613 2011-09-26 06:22:40 <d33tah> where it would probably be rejected, but who cares anyway.
 614 2011-09-26 06:22:49 theorb has joined
 615 2011-09-26 06:24:24 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 616 2011-09-26 06:24:28 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 3391984b45a7 r131 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/BlockChainTracker.java:
 617 2011-09-26 06:24:28 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - add timeout to notify-lp-clients-executor thread in case dispatch threads do
 618 2011-09-26 06:24:28 <CIA-101> poolserverj: not report back correctly and counters aren't updated. Solved a problem where
 619 2011-09-26 06:24:28 <CIA-101> poolserverj: counter mismatch can prevent the thread from ever finishing thus hogging the
 620 2011-09-26 06:24:28 <CIA-101> poolserverj: executor and preventing future long poll cycles.
 621 2011-09-26 06:24:38 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
 622 2011-09-26 06:24:52 <d33tah> Dagger3: so, is the 'solution' the correct word?
 623 2011-09-26 06:25:33 <diki> anyone have an idea why tor stopped working for me?
 624 2011-09-26 06:25:51 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
 625 2011-09-26 06:25:52 <Dagger3> yeah, I think "Submit Solution" would be good
 626 2011-09-26 06:25:57 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
 627 2011-09-26 06:25:57 Blitzboom has joined
 628 2011-09-26 06:26:08 <diki> last thing i did before it broke was click on 'use a new identity' after which it cant connect at all
 629 2011-09-26 06:26:20 <diki> no peers no nothing
 630 2011-09-26 06:26:25 <Dagger3> although it's a bit general... is this system designed specifically for source code changes to open-source projects?
 631 2011-09-26 06:26:38 <d33tah> Dagger3: not 'submit a solution' ?
 632 2011-09-26 06:26:40 <Dagger3> maybe "Submit Patch" might make more sense in that case
 633 2011-09-26 06:27:04 <d33tah> Dagger3: well, mostly code, but it could be other contents
 634 2011-09-26 06:27:16 <d33tah> patch. sounds cool.
 635 2011-09-26 06:27:35 piotrp has quit (Quit: piotrp)
 636 2011-09-26 06:28:22 <Dagger3> (but if people might use the system for something other than patches, of course it'll end up being wrong in those cases. guess it'll depend on how common those uses are)
 637 2011-09-26 06:28:38 <d33tah> hm, well
 638 2011-09-26 06:29:38 <gmaxwell> hm.. xzing the blockchin and index makes it 63% of the uncompressed size... probably a fact useful for those downloads.
 639 2011-09-26 06:29:44 cacheson1 has joined
 640 2011-09-26 06:29:56 <d33tah> let's say somebody puts up a bounty 'Do anything with Bitcoin logo so big that it will be seen from satellites and send a photo to win'
 641 2011-09-26 06:30:04 <d33tah> then the patch word would be inappropriate
 642 2011-09-26 06:30:15 cacheson has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 643 2011-09-26 06:30:33 <d33tah> gmaxwell: i wonder how much gain would there be if one used 7z with ultra brute settings
 644 2011-09-26 06:30:41 <d33tah> it's not going to be me though.
 645 2011-09-26 06:30:46 <Dagger3> regarding "a": "Submit a patch" is something you'd use for a button to start the process ("hm, I have a patch, and I'd like to put it up for voting"). once you've supplied the patch, and actually want to submit it, then you want a "Submit patch" button
 646 2011-09-26 06:31:14 <gmaxwell> d33tah: xz is the same algorithm.
 647 2011-09-26 06:31:30 <d33tah> like - submit a patch for the button, submit patch for a title of the next screen?
 648 2011-09-26 06:31:38 <gmaxwell> I didn't bother cranking the level becaue it usually doesn't help much more.
 649 2011-09-26 06:31:40 <d33tah> gmaxwell: but ultra-brute would make it a bigger dictionary
 650 2011-09-26 06:32:06 <d33tah> i'm not a compression specialist but it helped me when i was insane enough to try compressing my whole backups
 651 2011-09-26 06:32:36 <gmaxwell> d33tah: yes, it does make it bigger, but the degree of help depends a lot on the content.
 652 2011-09-26 06:33:21 <d33tah> and since the context is mostly cryptologically-signed data, it could not help a lot
 653 2011-09-26 06:33:26 <Dagger3> d33tah: hm... see, in the photo case, you'd probably want "Submit Proof", but then that doesn't work for patches
 654 2011-09-26 06:33:42 <d33tah> but solution would be more versatile, right?
 655 2011-09-26 06:36:09 cacheson1 is now known as cacheson
 656 2011-09-26 06:37:13 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 658 2011-09-26 06:37:16 <Dagger3> more generic, yeah, and it's definitely better than commit
 659 2011-09-26 06:37:40 copumpkin has joined
 660 2011-09-26 06:37:55 <Dagger3> but somebody else will probably come along in a bit and go "why didn't you use <x>" and we'll all slap our foreheads :/
 661 2011-09-26 06:38:12 <d33tah> like i did yesterday
 662 2011-09-26 06:38:39 <d33tah> i mean, dude, i've been learning english for like a half of my life
 663 2011-09-26 06:38:55 <d33tah> and still there are such days :p
 664 2011-09-26 06:39:18 <d33tah> i'm going for 'solution' then. will you review my github commit in a while?
 665 2011-09-26 06:41:01 <d33tah> oh
 666 2011-09-26 06:41:09 <d33tah> and i'm using 'submissions' in the database
 667 2011-09-26 06:41:15 <d33tah> i think i'll change it to solutions too
 668 2011-09-26 06:41:17 <d33tah> what do you think?
 669 2011-09-26 06:41:25 <d33tah> it's good to have a native speaker to ask ;)
 670 2011-09-26 06:42:40 <Dagger3> sure... link it in here and mention my name (although, warning: I may take a bit to notice... I'm IRCing behind VNC)
 671 2011-09-26 06:43:26 <d33tah> Dagger3: your name being? Dagger3?
 672 2011-09-26 06:44:03 <Dagger3> yeah, my current nickname, to trigger nickalert
 673 2011-09-26 06:44:34 <d33tah> oh. here. sorry. again, i'm sleepy. i thought you wanted to be mentioned in the commit's description. fine ;)
 674 2011-09-26 06:45:24 <Dagger3> oh, no, no need for that ;)
 675 2011-09-26 06:46:39 abragin has joined
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 677 2011-09-26 06:46:39 abragin has joined
 678 2011-09-26 06:46:43 <gmaxwell> d33tah: -9 gets it down to 59%, so not a huge improvement. it's 895918080 uncompressed, 565252852 with defaults, 529203192 with -9.  A custom format could do a _lot_ better though.
 679 2011-09-26 06:47:03 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 680 2011-09-26 06:47:12 <Dagger3> for the db... pass. guess it'd be more consistent if you change it
 681 2011-09-26 06:47:22 <Dagger3> unless you later decide to change solution to something else :p
 682 2011-09-26 06:47:42 <d33tah> i'm thinking of saving the commands that would do it for me ;D
 683 2011-09-26 06:47:55 <d33tah> like this one:
 684 2011-09-26 06:48:07 <d33tah> for file in `grep -il commit * -r`; do cp $file  "$file".bak  ; sed -i 's/commit/solution/g' "$file".bak; sed -i 's/Commit/Solution/g' "$file".bak; sed -i 's/COMMIT/SOLUTION/g' "$file".bak; sed -i 's/submission/solution/g' "$file".bak; mv -v "$file".bak "$file"; done
 685 2011-09-26 06:48:18 <d33tah> i just have to make sure the code still works, i had to rename the files as well
 686 2011-09-26 06:48:23 <d33tah> gmaxwell: yeah, i was thinking of it
 687 2011-09-26 06:48:41 <d33tah> i just wonder how would that be done so the format really saved space
 688 2011-09-26 06:49:15 gjs278 has joined
 689 2011-09-26 06:49:16 <d33tah> don't you think it would be awesome to compress the block chain files?
 690 2011-09-26 06:49:22 <gmaxwell> well, 256mbytes of the uncompressed size is indexes that can be completely regenerated from the data. The indexes are also full of txn hashes, so they aren't super compressable.
 691 2011-09-26 06:50:12 <d33tah> wait
 692 2011-09-26 06:50:17 <d33tah> you compressed it to 256mb?
 693 2011-09-26 06:50:22 <d33tah> down to that little?
 694 2011-09-26 06:50:36 <gmaxwell> d33tah: thats the indexes.
 695 2011-09-26 06:50:51 <d33tah> so, not the whole data?
 696 2011-09-26 06:51:03 <gmaxwell> I gave the sizes above.
 697 2011-09-26 06:51:36 <Dagger3> belated: <d33tah> like - submit a patch for the button, submit patch for a title of the next screen? <-- sounds ok to me. although, if you're using a wizard, I think the standard there is for the final button to just be the verb ("Submit"), since it's obvious what you're submitting from the context
 698 2011-09-26 06:51:37 <gmaxwell> I'm pointing out that 256 mb of the uncompressed size is purely redundant and can be generated directly by the reciever.
 699 2011-09-26 06:51:56 <gmaxwell> the compressed size of the blocks and the index file is 504MB.
 700 2011-09-26 06:52:22 <Dagger3> which... is probably actually true even if you just use a single dialog box too
 701 2011-09-26 06:53:06 <d33tah> well, i meant a button starting the process
 702 2011-09-26 06:53:27 wardearia has joined
 703 2011-09-26 06:53:36 <d33tah> gmaxwell: so. it's around 900mb uncompressed, then 504mb compressed, out of which we could strip it by another 256mb of indexes, making it around 250mb, right?
 704 2011-09-26 06:53:38 <Dagger3> bleh... I may be a native english speaker, but when you're designing UIs, you really want UI people. us programmers tend to get UI horribly wrong :/
 705 2011-09-26 06:53:54 <d33tah> honestly
 706 2011-09-26 06:53:59 <d33tah> i don't want to get perfect there
 707 2011-09-26 06:54:03 <d33tah> good would be enough for me
 708 2011-09-26 06:55:21 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 710 2011-09-26 06:56:49 <gmaxwell> you suffer from heavy rounding.. 850 MB uncompressed not 900.. and the 256 MB of indexes are uncompressed. Obviously they are smaller compressed so the savings from the compressed side will be less.
 711 2011-09-26 06:58:12 <d33tah> oh, right. you have a point.
 712 2011-09-26 06:59:24 <d33tah> so, how much down could we get?
 713 2011-09-26 06:59:29 <d33tah> more or less?
 714 2011-09-26 07:01:54 E-sense has quit (Quit: System.exit(0);)
 715 2011-09-26 07:04:11 <Dagger3> mm, I just got blk0001.dat down to 398 MB, and blkindex.dat down to 87 MB (= 485 MB total) with 7z + 3 GB of RAM
 716 2011-09-26 07:04:44 <d33tah> best settings?
 717 2011-09-26 07:04:49 <d33tah> i mean, ultra?
 718 2011-09-26 07:05:49 <Dagger3> Ultra/LZMA/256 MB dictionary/64 wordsize
 719 2011-09-26 07:06:08 <Dagger3> I have enough ram to try 512 MB dictonary if I close a few programs
 720 2011-09-26 07:06:41 <d33tah> worst that can happen is intense swapping
 721 2011-09-26 07:06:54 <conman> I should lrzip it for grins
 722 2011-09-26 07:07:45 maqr has quit (Changing host)
 723 2011-09-26 07:07:45 maqr has joined
 724 2011-09-26 07:08:19 iocor has joined
 725 2011-09-26 07:08:21 <d33tah> hey, never heard of it
 726 2011-09-26 07:08:27 <conman> I wrote it
 727 2011-09-26 07:08:37 <conman> http://freshmeat.net/projects/long-range-zip
 728 2011-09-26 07:08:54 <d33tah> awesome
 729 2011-09-26 07:09:04 <Dagger3> no it can't. no swap file :)
 730 2011-09-26 07:09:06 <conman> if you have LOOOTS of time, try -z
 731 2011-09-26 07:09:20 <d33tah> from what i understand, this means it looks for repetitions further than normal compression algorithms?
 732 2011-09-26 07:09:24 piotrp has joined
 733 2011-09-26 07:09:30 <conman> yes, unlimited if you set -U option
 734 2011-09-26 07:09:36 <conman> but that can take a while if you dont have much ram
 735 2011-09-26 07:09:43 <d33tah> that's just plain awesome
 736 2011-09-26 07:10:18 <d33tah> anyway, Dagger3, here's the commit: https://github.com/d33tah/bitcoin-bounties/commit/a8f3dec39697f9fcbfd7c8097fdf840fb71ed2c8
 737 2011-09-26 07:10:40 <d33tah> i'd be grateful for reporting any spotted languages/english.php errors
 738 2011-09-26 07:10:44 <conman> blk data tends not to repeat...
 739 2011-09-26 07:11:12 <d33tah> somehow it compressed, didn't it?
 740 2011-09-26 07:14:01 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 746 2011-09-26 07:24:24 <Dagger3> d33tah: line 123, "if there will send his solutions" (not sure what it's meant to say: "if no solutions are submitted"?)
 747 2011-09-26 07:25:01 <d33tah> hold on, i'll see the original
 748 2011-09-26 07:25:29 <d33tah> oh
 749 2011-09-26 07:25:37 <d33tah> you just helped me find this one
 750 2011-09-26 07:25:53 <d33tah> i spotted it long ago and couldn't find again when I wanted to fix it
 751 2011-09-26 07:26:29 <d33tah> i think i'll just change it to 'no solutions are submitted'. thanks a lot :)
 752 2011-09-26 07:28:13 sipa has quit (Quit: leaving)
 753 2011-09-26 07:28:24 <Dagger3> line 134 and 664, should be no apostrophe after "solutions"
 754 2011-09-26 07:29:02 <d33tah> mkay, got it
 755 2011-09-26 07:30:15 <Dagger3> lines 683 and 687 seem to be roughly the same message, but worded differently... would probably make more sense for them to be consistent
 756 2011-09-26 07:31:23 erus` has joined
 757 2011-09-26 07:31:26 <Dagger3> and now I'm going to realize that I should probably go over the full file and not just the diff
 758 2011-09-26 07:31:48 <d33tah> well, it'd be awesome
 759 2011-09-26 07:32:05 <d33tah> and you're most definitely right about the two strings
 760 2011-09-26 07:32:08 <d33tah> gonna merge them
 761 2011-09-26 07:33:24 aga is now known as agath
 762 2011-09-26 07:33:25 <d33tah> okay
 763 2011-09-26 07:33:38 <d33tah> waiting for more of your comments before i commit it all, don't feel like spamming the github
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 773 2011-09-26 08:00:33 <Dagger3> d33tah: the easy stuff from the first quarter: https://p.6core.net/p/9gphoxfuszk631vq
 774 2011-09-26 08:00:51 <Dagger3> (turns out I go quite slowly when I try to rephrase stuff >.>)
 775 2011-09-26 08:00:56 <d33tah> Dagger3: thank you very much indeed :)
 776 2011-09-26 08:02:16 <d33tah> hm, is advising the user to delete an email a bad practice?
 777 2011-09-26 08:03:31 <d33tah> about 103 - you get only one vote
 778 2011-09-26 08:03:41 <d33tah> so, no change there?
 779 2011-09-26 08:04:56 <d33tah> i'm also not sure that removing the 'since generation time' is that bad
 780 2011-09-26 08:05:33 <Dagger3> I'm not sure what other people think, but I associate that with those obnoxious 10-line disclaimers people add that say "if you weren't the recepient of this message, DELETE IMMEDIATELY AND SCRUB IT FROM YOUR BRAIN". also, people can decide to delete it themselves if they want to
 781 2011-09-26 08:05:45 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 782 2011-09-26 08:06:18 <d33tah> pretty right, i just wanted to warn them that it's the right thing to do, in case their e-mail gets hacked in the next 24 hours
 783 2011-09-26 08:06:46 <d33tah> but perhaps you might be right, it's always good to avoid evil associations :p
 784 2011-09-26 08:07:08 <Dagger3> 103, it's currently plural, so if you only get one vote it should be changed. maybe "Note that the weight of your vote is proportional" would be better
 785 2011-09-26 08:08:10 <d33tah> oh, right, sounds really better
 786 2011-09-26 08:08:46 <d33tah> and the 'since generation time'?
 787 2011-09-26 08:09:01 iocor has joined
 788 2011-09-26 08:12:22 <d33tah> why is that bad?
 789 2011-09-26 08:13:40 <Dagger3> not sure how to explain it... but I think it's just needlessly wordy
 790 2011-09-26 08:14:32 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 791 2011-09-26 08:15:24 <d33tah> you mean that adding that is pretty much insignificant?
 792 2011-09-26 08:16:02 <d33tah> i just thought of this poor fellow that finds a bug in my system that manifests by not confirming his link and all he has is this e-mail - i'd tell this guy as much as I could.
 793 2011-09-26 08:16:26 E-sense has joined
 794 2011-09-26 08:16:36 <gmaxwell> Hey, so how did the solidcoin people manage to kill-switch their software?
 795 2011-09-26 08:16:47 <gmaxwell> I don't see an obvious kill switch in the source.
 796 2011-09-26 08:17:27 <d33tah> what kill switch would it be if it was obvious?
 797 2011-09-26 08:17:49 <Dagger3> yeah, they just need to know that it'll stop working after 24 hours. "Keep in mind that confirmation links are only valid for 24 hours." is cleaner
 798 2011-09-26 08:18:31 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 799 2011-09-26 08:18:32 <d33tah> hell, you convinced me, i think
 800 2011-09-26 08:18:40 <d33tah> and 'freely access the site'?
 801 2011-09-26 08:19:49 <Dagger3> sounds silly to me ;)
 802 2011-09-26 08:20:13 larsivi has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 803 2011-09-26 08:20:17 <d33tah> i wanted to note that all the registered-only locks turn off then
 804 2011-09-26 08:20:34 larsivi has joined
 805 2011-09-26 08:20:35 <d33tah> but hell, an average bitcoin user doesn't use internet for the first time, doesn't he?
 806 2011-09-26 08:21:30 <Dagger3> maybe "You now have full access to the website"?
 807 2011-09-26 08:22:34 <d33tah> Your account is now confirmed. You may now use it to log in and have a full
 808 2011-09-26 08:22:34 <d33tah> access to the site.
 809 2011-09-26 08:22:37 <d33tah> ?
 810 2011-09-26 08:27:56 <d33tah> how about now?
 811 2011-09-26 08:28:40 <Dagger3> I'm trying to avoid the "using it"/"use it" construction, which also sounds a bit silly to me
 812 2011-09-26 08:30:25 <Dagger3> (disadvantage of being a native speaker, and not being a trained editor: I can tell when things sound off, but I don't know precisely what's wrong with it, or what's correct)
 813 2011-09-26 08:31:04 <d33tah> hm
 814 2011-09-26 08:31:06 <d33tah> how about
 815 2011-09-26 08:31:11 gjs278 has joined
 816 2011-09-26 08:31:17 <Dagger3> "Your account has been confirmed. You can now log in, and have full access to the site." (also avoids using "now" twice)
 817 2011-09-26 08:31:45 <d33tah> hm
 818 2011-09-26 08:32:06 <d33tah> isn't using comma before 'and' considered a mistake in English?
 819 2011-09-26 08:32:12 <d33tah> it is in Polish
 820 2011-09-26 08:33:09 <SomeoneWeird> yes i think so
 821 2011-09-26 08:33:09 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 822 2011-09-26 08:33:25 <Dagger3> depends on the sentence
 823 2011-09-26 08:33:32 <d33tah> so, allowed there?
 824 2011-09-26 08:33:54 <Dagger3> currently trying to work that out
 825 2011-09-26 08:34:34 <SomeoneWeird> "You now have full access to the site, so login!"
 826 2011-09-26 08:34:35 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 827 2011-09-26 08:34:39 wardearia has joined
 828 2011-09-26 08:36:38 <lfm> comma before and is optional
 829 2011-09-26 08:36:45 <Dagger3> http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/020204WhenCommaBfAnd.htm suggests *not*, because the second part doesn't have a subject (i.e. no "you")
 830 2011-09-26 08:39:58 <Dagger3> the problem with removing it is that then the sentence becomes "You can now [log in and have full access] to the site", which sounds weird to me
 831 2011-09-26 08:40:03 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/versionsMonth.png  < this graph is interesting— are the .24 nodes free of daily cycling because they're always full and thus don't suffer from as much load dependant availablity as .23 nodes do?
 832 2011-09-26 08:40:08 sipa1024 has joined
 833 2011-09-26 08:40:11 * Dagger3 puts this on the awkward pile
 834 2011-09-26 08:42:22 Blitzboom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 835 2011-09-26 08:42:39 Blitzboom has joined
 836 2011-09-26 08:42:44 nr9_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 837 2011-09-26 08:44:59 danbri has joined
 838 2011-09-26 08:51:19 <d33tah> Your account has been confirmed. You can now log in, gaining full access to the site.
 839 2011-09-26 08:51:22 <d33tah> ?
 840 2011-09-26 08:51:35 <d33tah> sipa1024: you here?
 841 2011-09-26 08:52:47 UukGoblin has quit (Changing host)
 842 2011-09-26 08:52:47 UukGoblin has joined
 843 2011-09-26 08:53:07 <sipa1024> d33tah: yes, what?
 844 2011-09-26 08:53:17 sipa1024 is now known as sipa
 845 2011-09-26 08:53:33 <d33tah> i can finally show you the latest ECDSA verifying code that doesn't work
 846 2011-09-26 08:53:44 wardearia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 847 2011-09-26 08:54:01 <lfm> hehe oh boy, just what Iv always wanted
 848 2011-09-26 08:54:02 <d33tah> http://wklej.org/id/599564/
 849 2011-09-26 08:54:12 <d33tah> isn't it? :d
 850 2011-09-26 08:56:27 <d33tah> sipa: mind helping me there?
 851 2011-09-26 09:00:12 conman has left ("Leaving")
 852 2011-09-26 09:02:59 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * c5f071a8b8ff r132 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/BlockChainTracker.java: - add shutdown check to lp dispatch timeout
 853 2011-09-26 09:02:59 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 56db979ab090 r133 /.hgtags: Added tag 0.3.0.FINAL for changeset c5f071a8b8ff
 854 2011-09-26 09:04:44 <epscy> ;;bc,stats
 855 2011-09-26 09:04:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 146956 | Current Difficulty: 1755425.3203287 | Next Difficulty At Block: 147167 | Next Difficulty In: 211 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 13 hours, 2 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1696081.25580017 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.38060889528
 856 2011-09-26 09:07:58 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 857 2011-09-26 09:08:09 <d33tah> sipa: still there?: P
 858 2011-09-26 09:09:15 wardearia has joined
 859 2011-09-26 09:11:25 Burgundy has joined
 860 2011-09-26 09:16:41 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 861 2011-09-26 09:18:02 mmoya has joined
 862 2011-09-26 09:19:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 19ad77328cee r134 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/ (5 files): - lib updates
 863 2011-09-26 09:19:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 6f72bdee07c5 r135 /poolserverj-main/etc/lib/lib_non-maven/ (5 files): -lib updates
 864 2011-09-26 09:20:27 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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 866 2011-09-26 09:24:58 [7] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 869 2011-09-26 09:27:06 da2ce7 has joined
 870 2011-09-26 09:27:08 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 2853489ae600 r136 /.hgtags: Removed tag 0.3.0.FINAL
 871 2011-09-26 09:27:57 piuk has joined
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 873 2011-09-26 09:35:19 <d33tah> sipa: the problem with the code was that it didn't return 1 (valid signature) even though the signature was valid
 874 2011-09-26 09:35:26 EskimoBob has joined
 875 2011-09-26 09:35:27 EskimoBob has quit (Changing host)
 876 2011-09-26 09:35:27 EskimoBob has joined
 877 2011-09-26 09:35:32 <sipa> d33tah: really?
 878 2011-09-26 09:35:39 <d33tah> yeah
 879 2011-09-26 09:35:44 <sipa> is that the problem, or the signature?
 880 2011-09-26 09:35:47 <sipa> eh
 881 2011-09-26 09:35:52 <sipa> the problem, or the symptom?
 882 2011-09-26 09:35:58 <d33tah> well, rather a symptom
 883 2011-09-26 09:36:21 <sipa> i've no idea what the problem is with your code
 884 2011-09-26 09:36:29 <d33tah> sigh. :/
 885 2011-09-26 09:36:42 <d33tah> i'm really dreaming of fixing it so I could go on
 886 2011-09-26 09:36:49 <Dagger3> d33tah: easy stuff from the rest of the file: https://p.6core.net/p/p443zy1zetpd7jf
 887 2011-09-26 09:37:10 <d33tah> Dagger3: thanks
 888 2011-09-26 09:37:23 <d33tah> Your account has been confirmed. You can now log in, gaining full access to the site. - what do you think of that, Dagger3?
 889 2011-09-26 09:38:20 Desala` has joined
 890 2011-09-26 09:40:15 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 891 2011-09-26 09:41:09 <d33tah> Dagger3: i'm not sure if i should remove 'you entered'
 892 2011-09-26 09:41:23 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 893 2011-09-26 09:43:15 <Dagger3> I wasn't really sure on that either
 894 2011-09-26 09:43:24 <Dagger3> I wonder how Windows phrases that message...
 895 2011-09-26 09:43:42 <d33tah> i always remember it with 'you entered' :P
 896 2011-09-26 09:43:51 zatix has joined
 897 2011-09-26 09:45:07 <Dagger3> ok, apparently my server accepts one-character passwords now, even though it required alphanumeric + mixed-case when I installed it
 898 2011-09-26 09:45:08 Clipse has joined
 899 2011-09-26 09:45:10 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 900 2011-09-26 09:45:15 <d33tah> Dagger3: btw, you made me notice the reset password link should expire
 901 2011-09-26 09:45:52 log0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 902 2011-09-26 09:45:54 fnord0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 903 2011-09-26 09:45:55 Desala1 has joined
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 906 2011-09-26 09:47:29 <d33tah> haha, it kept saying commit because it was spelt with 3 m
 907 2011-09-26 09:48:03 <Dagger3> whoops, didn't even notice that :p
 908 2011-09-26 09:49:31 <d33tah> and i can't really replace 'illegal data'
 909 2011-09-26 09:49:40 <d33tah> i mostly meant its type
 910 2011-09-26 09:50:15 Desala` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 912 2011-09-26 09:53:07 zatix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 913 2011-09-26 09:53:46 <d33tah> about 612/627 - these are not redundant, i put them so I could show them when there is more than one error
 914 2011-09-26 09:55:23 <d33tah> changes commited :)
 915 2011-09-26 09:57:19 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 916 2011-09-26 09:58:33 <Dagger3> \o/
 917 2011-09-26 09:58:45 <Dagger3> I have a few more, more awkward rephrasings too
 918 2011-09-26 09:58:47 piuk has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 919 2011-09-26 09:59:19 <Dagger3> (whenever my browser stops randomly freezing up...)
 920 2011-09-26 10:00:43 <d33tah> feel free to point them out to me ;)
 921 2011-09-26 10:01:18 <d33tah> it's never a bad time to learn some english
 922 2011-09-26 10:08:35 theorbtwo has joined
 923 2011-09-26 10:09:04 <Dagger3> I think I need to ask some questions about the site... I'm looking at the message in line 87 right now
 924 2011-09-26 10:10:04 <d33tah> latest commit?
 925 2011-09-26 10:10:30 <Dagger3> I'm looking at dc870124
 926 2011-09-26 10:10:43 <Dagger3> it says "donate a bounty" -- does that mean contribute to an existing bounty, or post a new one?
 927 2011-09-26 10:10:52 <d33tah> contribute
 928 2011-09-26 10:11:05 <d33tah> pretty much i guess i missed out a 'to'
 929 2011-09-26 10:11:07 <d33tah> donate to a bounty
 930 2011-09-26 10:12:13 <d33tah> i guess there is no such thing as 'donating a bounty', right?
 931 2011-09-26 10:13:47 <Dagger3> I think you could perhaps say that, but it implies you're paying the entire bounty rather than a bit of it
 932 2011-09-26 10:14:07 <d33tah> so, contribute instead of donate?
 933 2011-09-26 10:14:17 <d33tah> contribute associates with solving to me
 934 2011-09-26 10:16:16 <Dagger3> uh, ok, rephrase: saying "donate a bounty" implies you're paying all of it, whereas "donate to a bounty" implies you're paying part of it
 935 2011-09-26 10:16:40 <Dagger3> however, I think "donating" to a bounty sounds weird, and "contributing" is better
 936 2011-09-26 10:16:58 <d33tah> donating implies money. contributing implies patches aswell
 937 2011-09-26 10:18:06 <Dagger3> however #2, I do see where you're coming from: it sounds like they're helping out with patches too. I guess the problem is that you're using "bounty" to mean both the "job listing" itself and the "monetary reward"
 938 2011-09-26 10:18:41 <d33tah> i didn't know it was a monetary reward for quite a long time while coding
 939 2011-09-26 10:18:52 <d33tah> it was later that i heard the phrase 'get the bounty'
 940 2011-09-26 10:18:56 <d33tah> and it got me confused
 941 2011-09-26 10:20:09 coblee_ has joined
 942 2011-09-26 10:20:14 <Dagger3> thing is though, people who are contributing money are helping out just as much as the people writing the code: sure, they're not programmers, but they're still helping to get the problem fixed
 943 2011-09-26 10:20:40 <d33tah> yeah, but one must know if he's going to donate or send the code
 944 2011-09-26 10:21:09 <Dagger3> and I think "contributing" makes people feel more involved (and thus more likely to pay), whereas "donate" makes them feel a bit detached
 945 2011-09-26 10:21:38 BGL has joined
 946 2011-09-26 10:21:41 <Dagger3> see, this is why it's on my awkward pile
 947 2011-09-26 10:23:07 coblee has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 948 2011-09-26 10:23:07 coblee_ is now known as coblee
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 950 2011-09-26 10:25:45 Cokein has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 951 2011-09-26 10:26:03 <Dagger3> well, for the meantime, "about to donate to" works
 952 2011-09-26 10:28:19 <d33tah> okay
 953 2011-09-26 10:28:54 <Dagger3> the next sentence needs some work too... "whether to accept or not particular solutions", but I'm not sure what to
 954 2011-09-26 10:30:01 <Dagger3> "This gives you the ability to vote on which solution to the bounty is accepted."?
 955 2011-09-26 10:30:19 <Dagger3> (of course, now I've just introduced the concept of accepting bounty solutions)
 956 2011-09-26 10:30:23 <lfm> according to bitcoin a year has 364.58333 days
 957 2011-09-26 10:31:07 <d33tah> cool
 958 2011-09-26 10:31:25 <d33tah> isn't it more or less the truth?
 959 2011-09-26 10:32:09 <lfm> well if that is the same as 365.25 then ok ya
 960 2011-09-26 10:33:12 <lfm> or is it 365.2475
 961 2011-09-26 10:33:56 <lfm> plus or minuse a few leap seconds here and there
 962 2011-09-26 10:34:00 <Dagger3> you might need to change some other lines elsewhere to be consistent with that though
 963 2011-09-26 10:34:10 <Dagger3> (which might not be a bad thing, if that makes it clearer)
 964 2011-09-26 10:35:04 Bitbird has joined
 965 2011-09-26 10:35:43 <d33tah> oh, sorry Dagger3, i missed your msg
 966 2011-09-26 10:35:59 <lfm> just cuz someone does some work for a bounty doesnt mean the other developers will put it in the standard code
 967 2011-09-26 10:36:44 <d33tah> yeah, i mentioned that
 968 2011-09-26 10:36:53 <d33tah> but it's ok to gather the code anyway
 969 2011-09-26 10:37:04 <d33tah> just because it's not in the standard code doesn't mean it's not useful
 970 2011-09-26 10:37:26 <lfm> it might have to exist as a patch
 971 2011-09-26 10:37:34 <d33tah> or a fork
 972 2011-09-26 10:39:12 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 973 2011-09-26 10:42:18 Bitbird has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 974 2011-09-26 10:43:39 <Dagger3> line 111 needs changing to match 88 now... "You will not have the ability to vote on the accepted solution; for more information, read <a>the rules</a>."
 975 2011-09-26 10:44:51 <d33tah> okay
 976 2011-09-26 10:45:47 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
 977 2011-09-26 10:47:34 Clipse has joined
 978 2011-09-26 10:47:36 <Dagger3> line 68: should that have ${domain} at the end, to match the similar message for password resets?
 979 2011-09-26 10:47:44 Sthebig has joined
 980 2011-09-26 10:48:20 melvster has joined
 981 2011-09-26 10:48:44 <d33tah> yeah, the code was inconsistent there, i put it somewhere else, just fixed that
 982 2011-09-26 10:48:54 <d33tah> ;)
 983 2011-09-26 10:50:21 <Dagger3> line 72: this seems a bit brief, unless this message is combined with another one... maybe something like "To confirm your e-mail address, please visit the link in the e-mail we have just sent you." or "We have e-mailed you a confirmation link. Please visit it to confirm that your e-mail is valid."
 984 2011-09-26 10:50:54 <d33tah> i was too lazy to write more there :P
 985 2011-09-26 10:51:18 <d33tah> We have e-mailed you a confirmation link. Please visit it to confirm that your e-mail is valid and complete the registration process?
 986 2011-09-26 10:51:40 <Dagger3> yeah, that's good
 987 2011-09-26 10:52:06 <d33tah> k
 988 2011-09-26 10:53:22 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 989 2011-09-26 10:56:15 <Dagger3> back to those donate messages... line 100, "to this address" rather than "from this address"
 990 2011-09-26 10:57:02 <d33tah> right
 991 2011-09-26 10:57:32 <Dagger3> line 121... is it possible for a bounty to receive submitted solutions, but for none of them to be accepted?
 992 2011-09-26 10:59:03 <d33tah> if nobody votes, they all have 0%, so they will never win
 993 2011-09-26 10:59:39 iocor has joined
 994 2011-09-26 11:04:03 <Dagger3> so does the bounty automatically get closed after a year like that, or is the "your donation will returned after a year" just so that you don't hold on to annonymous donations for too long?
 995 2011-09-26 11:04:24 <d33tah> well, it's not implemented, someday i hope it will :p
 996 2011-09-26 11:05:07 <d33tah> although now that i'm thinking of it, i'm not sure there's any need to return donations. how do you think?
 997 2011-09-26 11:05:12 <d33tah> what do you think*?
 998 2011-09-26 11:08:29 <Dagger3> hm... well, if you're calling them "donations", it does certainly sound like you won't get them back
 999 2011-09-26 11:08:54 d1g1t4l has joined
1000 2011-09-26 11:09:11 <Dagger3> but I think I'd be a bit annoyed if an unsolved problem lead to you taking all the bounty money... then you'd have an incentive to make sure as few problems are solved as possible
1001 2011-09-26 11:09:48 <d33tah> you're right.
1002 2011-09-26 11:14:31 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 6302db321186 r137 / (23 files in 11 dirs): Merge with 9d761c91177694749f2e4a4ff36895aaebf7c525
1003 2011-09-26 11:14:32 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * fe7fff5c2771 r138 /poolserverj-main/changelog.txt: update changelog
1004 2011-09-26 11:14:32 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 14e174b326a3 r139 /poolserverj-main/changelog.txt: update changelog
1005 2011-09-26 11:14:32 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 6a42143c30c5 r141 /.hgtags: Added tag 0.3.0.FINAL for changeset 21105fc36c8b
1006 2011-09-26 11:14:32 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * d3561900bb9b r142 /poolserverj-main/target/bitcoin-poolserverj-0.0.2-SNAPSHOT.jar: sutff
1007 2011-09-26 11:14:32 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 57880bfc1fad r143 / (23 files in 11 dirs): Merge with fe7fff5c27717f90a04739de3c1b758923bc7ae5
1008 2011-09-26 11:14:33 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 80bef582af6c r144 /.hgtags: Merge with d3561900bb9b472482c25890eefda0c09060eeb8
1009 2011-09-26 11:14:33 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 21105fc36c8b r140 /: Starting 'temp-main' branch
1010 2011-09-26 11:14:34 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * f56e5c7ecc9b r145 /: Starting 'merged mining2' branch
1011 2011-09-26 11:16:23 <Dagger3> so yeah, my point was going to be that line 121 should say "The donation you send will be returned to you after a year if no solutions are accepted for it in that time.", or "if no solutions are submitted for it [in that time]", depending on what actually happens
1012 2011-09-26 11:17:04 Daniel0108 has joined
1013 2011-09-26 11:17:05 <d33tah> well, in that time.
1014 2011-09-26 11:17:18 <d33tah> in exactly the year from donation
1015 2011-09-26 11:19:52 erle- has joined
1016 2011-09-26 11:22:29 <Dagger3> for the sentence following that (line 123), "in your name" -> "on your behalf" avoids using "in" twice
1017 2011-09-26 11:23:17 <Dagger3> and I'm left wondering which solution it'll vote for. all of them? the first one submitted? or the one with most of the votes otherwise?
1018 2011-09-26 11:24:05 <d33tah> it's actually excluded from voting
1019 2011-09-26 11:24:18 <d33tah> but yes, it raises questions
1020 2011-09-26 11:26:59 <Dagger3> perhaps ", and you will be unable to vote on which solution is accepted. If you wish to do so, sign in below:"?
1021 2011-09-26 11:28:03 <d33tah> but it's already said on the beginning
1022 2011-09-26 11:28:34 <Dagger3> ah, true
1023 2011-09-26 11:30:00 RazielZ has joined
1024 2011-09-26 11:30:00 <d33tah> btw, did you test the system? how do you like it?
1025 2011-09-26 11:30:12 <Dagger3> how about omitting the "automatically vote" sentence, and saying "If you want to be able to vote, or to withdraw your donation sooner, sign in below:"?
1026 2011-09-26 11:31:45 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•FDP•ESSE•DELENDVM)
1027 2011-09-26 11:33:01 <Dagger3> haven't done that... is it hosted somewhere?
1028 2011-09-26 11:34:23 <d33tah> yeah, bitcoinbounties.org
1029 2011-09-26 11:34:26 disqk has joined
1030 2011-09-26 11:34:31 <d33tah> no theme yet, there's unofficial one though
1031 2011-09-26 11:34:50 <d33tah> can't merge it until its owner officially confirms me he's done working on it and he releases it under GPL
1032 2011-09-26 11:35:23 <d33tah> why 'sooner', not in the future?
1033 2011-09-26 11:35:28 disq has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1034 2011-09-26 11:35:33 t3a has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1035 2011-09-26 11:36:22 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1036 2011-09-26 11:36:25 <Dagger3> I was thinking "sooner than a year", but I suppose it could be later than one too
1037 2011-09-26 11:40:06 <Dagger3> could say "or to choose when to withdraw your donation" or "or to withdraw your donation at a different date"
1038 2011-09-26 11:44:48 <d33tah> If you want to be able to vote, or to be able to withdraw your donation in the future, sign in below:
1039 2011-09-26 11:44:51 <d33tah> ?
1040 2011-09-26 11:45:56 sneak_ has joined
1041 2011-09-26 11:46:36 <d33tah> afk, gonna grab a bite
1042 2011-09-26 11:48:21 <Dagger3> that makes it sound like you must sign in if you ever want it back, even though you could get it back by waiting for one year
1043 2011-09-26 11:48:25 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1044 2011-09-26 11:48:33 Kardos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1045 2011-09-26 11:49:30 rdponticelli has joined
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1047 2011-09-26 11:56:38 <d33tah> Dagger3: i have no idea then :P
1048 2011-09-26 11:59:10 p0s has joined
1049 2011-09-26 12:00:45 MrTiggrZZZzzz is now known as MrTiggr
1050 2011-09-26 12:01:03 sneak_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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1054 2011-09-26 12:11:38 <Dagger3> mm... well, moving on then :P
1055 2011-09-26 12:12:20 minimoose has joined
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1059 2011-09-26 12:13:57 <Dagger3> line 328 "donate to '%s'", line 332/336 need "to"
1060 2011-09-26 12:14:46 <Dagger3> line 340 I think should be either "bounty list" or "list of bounties"
1061 2011-09-26 12:14:56 b4epoche_ has joined
1062 2011-09-26 12:15:35 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1063 2011-09-26 12:15:58 <d33tah> thanks, fixed both
1064 2011-09-26 12:16:42 MobiusL_ is now known as MobiusL
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1066 2011-09-26 12:20:53 <Dagger3> line 624: I think you might need to consider your security policy carefully... it looks like you prevent files named *.php, to prevent the php file from being executed
1067 2011-09-26 12:21:50 <Dagger3> but you also need to think about, say, *.pl to prevent someone running a perl script, or *.html to prevent them from uploading a webpage with nasty javascript
1068 2011-09-26 12:22:16 someone42 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1069 2011-09-26 12:22:34 <Dagger3> and in general I don't think a blacklist is a great plan, unless you're confident you can think of everything or clean up properly if you can't
1070 2011-09-26 12:23:12 sneak_ has joined
1071 2011-09-26 12:24:01 <d33tah> so, what do you advise? just archives?
1072 2011-09-26 12:26:54 <Dagger3> I'm not really sure what the right solution is (and it's out of scope for me here, but I thought I'd mention it anyway -- there's been enough security flaws in bitcoin websites recently) -- maybe force all downloads to be zip files, and automatically wrap anything else in a zip file... or perhaps you can use a wrapper .php script to serve files, and make sure all non-.zip(/jpg/etc) files
1073 2011-09-26 12:26:55 <Dagger3> are served as text/plain
1074 2011-09-26 12:27:52 <d33tah> zipping sounds a good solution for me
1075 2011-09-26 12:27:59 <d33tah> i just thought of pretty much the same
1076 2011-09-26 12:28:08 <d33tah> the problem is i'm lacking motivation to do it all
1077 2011-09-26 12:28:25 <d33tah> i've drawn hardly any attention so far
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1080 2011-09-26 12:29:38 cacheson has joined
1081 2011-09-26 12:30:35 <Dagger3> it's bit of a pain though if someone submits a single *.diff file, which could safely be displayed in the browser
1082 2011-09-26 12:30:37 someone42 has joined
1083 2011-09-26 12:30:59 <Dagger3> yeah, getting people to actually use the site is going to be your big problem
1084 2011-09-26 12:31:31 <d33tah> i'd be fine with small donations at the beggining
1085 2011-09-26 12:31:42 <Dagger3> and there's always going to be people on the forums accusing you of stealing funds (or not stealing funds _yet_, but ready to do so as soon as you have lots)
1086 2011-09-26 12:31:47 <d33tah> but it look like hardly anybody even looked at it
1087 2011-09-26 12:35:59 datagutt has joined
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1092 2011-09-26 12:41:21 <Dagger3> ok, what's left... line 140, reword a bit... "Your submission to bounty number %s on ${domain} has been accepted by voters, and you have won the %s BTC reward. To receive it, please visit the following link and enter the Bitcoin address to transfer it to."?
1093 2011-09-26 12:41:50 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1094 2011-09-26 12:42:15 <d33tah> voters => users?
1095 2011-09-26 12:42:26 <d33tah> why contribution=>submission?
1096 2011-09-26 12:42:40 <luke-jr> voters IMO would be weighed of people who submit BTC toward the bounty
1097 2011-09-26 12:42:59 <d33tah> voters or the voters?
1098 2011-09-26 12:43:09 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1099 2011-09-26 12:43:11 <luke-jr> d33tah: probably need a way to vote the reward get split among people
1100 2011-09-26 12:43:30 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1101 2011-09-26 12:43:52 <d33tah> luke-jr: you sure it's a good idea?
1102 2011-09-26 12:44:13 <luke-jr> ?
1103 2011-09-26 12:44:40 <d33tah> i mean, wouldn't it be better to promote only the best submission?
1104 2011-09-26 12:44:40 <Dagger3> contribution could be confused with a monetary contribution
1105 2011-09-26 12:44:57 <luke-jr> d33tah: what if the best submission is a combination of two peoples' work?
1106 2011-09-26 12:45:07 <luke-jr> also, cap the vote at 10% per person
1107 2011-09-26 12:45:24 <luke-jr> ie, someone who pays 50% of the bounty shouldn't get to make the whole decision
1108 2011-09-26 12:45:31 <luke-jr> otherwise it's too easy to exploiit
1109 2011-09-26 12:45:33 <d33tah> oh, been wondering on how to do it
1110 2011-09-26 12:45:37 <d33tah> you think 10% is safe?
1111 2011-09-26 12:45:48 datagutt has joined
1112 2011-09-26 12:45:53 <luke-jr> dunno
1113 2011-09-26 12:46:01 <luke-jr> probably need someone good with math to figure out
1114 2011-09-26 12:46:05 <luke-jr> or perhaps sociology
1115 2011-09-26 12:46:12 <d33tah> it would take 5 people to overrule it
1116 2011-09-26 12:46:21 <luke-jr> or 5 fake accounts? :/
1117 2011-09-26 12:46:25 <d33tah> that's right.
1118 2011-09-26 12:46:45 <mtrlt> the one with the money makes the decision makes sense
1119 2011-09-26 12:46:45 <mtrlt> :P
1120 2011-09-26 12:46:46 <Dagger3> ugh, here's a problem: it would take five bitcoin addresses, which are trivial to make and annonymous :/
1121 2011-09-26 12:47:04 <luke-jr> at least weighing reduces the chance of a million 0.000001 BTC voters
1122 2011-09-26 12:47:06 <d33tah> i don't know how to calculate it, but i'd like to minimize the potential gain a cheater would get to 0.01BTC
1123 2011-09-26 12:47:24 <luke-jr> hmm
1124 2011-09-26 12:47:28 <d33tah> on my TODO list is a manual moderation
1125 2011-09-26 12:47:30 <luke-jr> math+sociology is almost psychohistory
1126 2011-09-26 12:47:32 <luke-jr> :D
1127 2011-09-26 12:48:42 <Dagger3> in particular, a person could contribute 1000 BTC (split up into multiple accounts as appropriate), submit a BS solution and vote themselves as the best choice, thus getting their 1000 BTC back plus any other contributions
1128 2011-09-26 12:48:50 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
1129 2011-09-26 12:48:51 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":5.47127,"low":4.93,"avg":5.266483994,"vwap":5.218319881,"vol":24261,"last":5.05,"buy":5.04728,"sell":5.05}}
1130 2011-09-26 12:49:11 <d33tah> Dagger3: minus the fees
1131 2011-09-26 12:49:33 <d33tah> i settled 1% for myself
1132 2011-09-26 12:50:02 mmoya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1133 2011-09-26 12:50:29 <luke-jr> maybe require more than 50% consensus
1134 2011-09-26 12:50:52 <d33tah> it's 30% right now
1135 2011-09-26 12:50:56 <luke-jr> …
1136 2011-09-26 12:51:01 <luke-jr> 30% isn't even a majority
1137 2011-09-26 12:51:03 <d33tah> but the more it is, the harder it's to collect the consensus
1138 2011-09-26 12:51:13 <luke-jr> let people change their votes
1139 2011-09-26 12:51:16 <d33tah> yeah, but when there are, say, ten solutions....
1140 2011-09-26 12:51:18 <d33tah> i did
1141 2011-09-26 12:51:36 <luke-jr> when everyone's voted, eliminate the least-popular option and email the people who voted it
1142 2011-09-26 12:51:47 <lupine_85> yes, maybe you should look at a different voting system to FPTP
1143 2011-09-26 12:51:55 <Gekz> score voting
1144 2011-09-26 12:51:56 <luke-jr> actually, better yet, allow people to vote for a list of preferences
1145 2011-09-26 12:51:58 <d33tah> FPTP?
1146 2011-09-26 12:52:04 <luke-jr> ie, order the solutions by which they think is best
1147 2011-09-26 12:52:04 <gmaxwell> first past the post.
1148 2011-09-26 12:52:06 <lupine_85> full PR isn't that difficult to implement :p
1149 2011-09-26 12:52:06 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1150 2011-09-26 12:52:12 <lupine_85> or there's range voting
1151 2011-09-26 12:52:16 <gmaxwell> what are you electing?
1152 2011-09-26 12:52:24 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: bounty winners
1153 2011-09-26 12:52:37 <lupine_85> better, allow the person who issues the proposal to decide the winning conditions
1154 2011-09-26 12:52:48 <gmaxwell> is there only a single winner or many?
1155 2011-09-26 12:52:57 <luke-jr> lupine_85: the voting is on who meets those conditions the best
1156 2011-09-26 12:53:12 <lupine_85> people can then take that into account when deciding whether to support a particular bounty or not
1157 2011-09-26 12:53:12 <gmaxwell> then you probably want a condorcet method if there is a single winner.
1158 2011-09-26 12:53:23 <gmaxwell> I'm fond of https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Schulze_method
1159 2011-09-26 12:54:14 <luke-jr> also need to consider the possibility of some large funder losing their password or getting killed
1160 2011-09-26 12:54:27 <luke-jr> ie, remove them from the vote if they take too long
1161 2011-09-26 12:54:49 <d33tah> yeah, i thought of it too
1162 2011-09-26 12:54:56 <d33tah> damnit
1163 2011-09-26 12:55:09 <d33tah> couldn't you guys post all the ideas in the project thread on bitcointalk.org?
1164 2011-09-26 12:55:15 <d33tah> it'd be really easier to discuss it there
1165 2011-09-26 12:55:21 <d33tah> i wish i drew so much attention there
1166 2011-09-26 12:55:23 <lupine_85> no, IRC is best for discussion :)
1167 2011-09-26 12:55:37 <lupine_85> you get more attention because the barrier for entry into the discussion is much lower
1168 2011-09-26 12:56:02 <luke-jr> summarize IRC on the forum later and ask if you missed anything
1169 2011-09-26 12:56:14 <d33tah> would you guys mind if I posted the whole discussion?
1170 2011-09-26 12:57:10 <lupine_85> I don't care, but the forum owners might
1171 2011-09-26 12:57:15 <lupine_85> or they might not
1172 2011-09-26 12:57:44 KArmitt has quit ()
1173 2011-09-26 12:58:17 * lupine_85 defeats some bugs
1174 2011-09-26 12:58:40 larsivi has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1175 2011-09-26 12:59:17 <d33tah> is there any bot around that records this channel?
1176 2011-09-26 13:00:19 larsivi has joined
1177 2011-09-26 13:00:40 <d33tah> afk
1178 2011-09-26 13:01:36 ttblrs has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1179 2011-09-26 13:02:04 <Graet> Public channel logs: bit.ly/iPFi3X
1180 2011-09-26 13:02:04 <luke-jr> d33tah: this channel is publicly logged
1181 2011-09-26 13:03:58 vrs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1182 2011-09-26 13:07:03 normanrichards has joined
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1184 2011-09-26 13:12:49 <edcba> that's copyright infrigement !
1185 2011-09-26 13:13:31 gavinandresen has joined
1186 2011-09-26 13:13:53 <edcba> also privacy violation
1187 2011-09-26 13:14:16 <sipa> it is announced in the topic and welcome message
1188 2011-09-26 13:14:20 <sipa> i think that suffices
1189 2011-09-26 13:15:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf7f2a36 / (156 files in 14 dirs):
1190 2011-09-26 13:15:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #521 from laanwj/qt
1191 2011-09-26 13:15:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Qt GUI - http://git.io/gv8Owg
1192 2011-09-26 13:15:37 <edcba> what if i joinned the chan before the topic was set ? :)
1193 2011-09-26 13:15:51 <sipa> \o/ bitcoin-qt \o/
1194 2011-09-26 13:15:59 <gmaxwell> Then you would have seen it being set.
1195 2011-09-26 13:16:08 <gmaxwell> oh has the merge fest begun?
1196 2011-09-26 13:16:13 <edcba> indeed
1197 2011-09-26 13:16:14 <gavinandresen> yup
1198 2011-09-26 13:16:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r17e2c24 / (9 files in 2 dirs):
1199 2011-09-26 13:16:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #517 from gavinandresen/DoSprevention
1200 2011-09-26 13:16:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Denial-of-service prevention - http://git.io/t97YNw
1201 2011-09-26 13:16:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: not sure how soon you were planning to merge key import/export, but i plan to rebase and make a few changes to the wallet export/import function still
1202 2011-09-26 13:17:06 <edcba> anyway i find that quite lousy to publish irc conversations
1203 2011-09-26 13:17:24 <edcba> except on bash.org of course
1204 2011-09-26 13:17:27 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I'll merge as soon as you say it is ready and has had some sanity testing
1205 2011-09-26 13:17:39 <sipa> yeah, i'll ask alex to do some testing too
1206 2011-09-26 13:19:36 magn3ts has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1207 2011-09-26 13:19:50 <gmaxwell> I did some basic abusive testing against an old version, but it's been a while.
1208 2011-09-26 13:20:10 <sipa> i don't think too much changed
1209 2011-09-26 13:20:35 <sipa> i'm pretty confident about key import/export, but wallet import/export may have some untested cornercases still
1210 2011-09-26 13:21:47 CaptainDDL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1211 2011-09-26 13:23:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r5df25e7 / (doc/build-unix.txt src/makefile.unix):
1212 2011-09-26 13:23:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #513 from cjdelisle/feature-hardening
1213 2011-09-26 13:23:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Hardening - http://git.io/S5a90w
1214 2011-09-26 13:23:54 glitch-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1215 2011-09-26 13:25:14 alexwaters has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1217 2011-09-26 13:26:00 AlexWaters has joined
1218 2011-09-26 13:26:07 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rb34764a57965 /include/bitcoin/types.hpp: BUGFIX: hexlify segfault with zero-size argument
1219 2011-09-26 13:26:09 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r621dc7e1270c / (12 files in 7 dirs): AcceptBlock()
1220 2011-09-26 13:27:28 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r6b8a5ab / (5 files in 4 dirs): Bump version to 0.4.1 - http://git.io/5YzHrA
1221 2011-09-26 13:31:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rb14bd4d / src/main.cpp : Skip verifying transaction signatures during initial block-chain download - http://git.io/MxmkAg
1222 2011-09-26 13:31:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * ree1d6e4 / src/main.cpp :
1223 2011-09-26 13:31:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #492 from gavinandresen/fasterinitialdownload
1224 2011-09-26 13:31:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Skip verifying transaction signatures during initial block-chain download - http://git.io/GOhNUA
1225 2011-09-26 13:34:48 zapnap has joined
1226 2011-09-26 13:35:17 disqk is now known as disq
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1230 2011-09-26 13:37:21 <AlexWaters> sipa: my main goal for this week is to test #220 and Qt
1231 2011-09-26 13:38:32 <AlexWaters> and maybe 524
1232 2011-09-26 13:43:45 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1233 2011-09-26 13:44:04 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1234 2011-09-26 13:44:39 <sipa> AlexWaters: i'll write a README on wallet import/export, to explain the intended behaviour (especially with exportwallet which has quite a few options)
1235 2011-09-26 13:45:33 glitch-mod has joined
1236 2011-09-26 13:46:03 <sipa> (and i believe an update to #195 will be necessary if #220 is merged)
1237 2011-09-26 13:47:38 <AlexWaters> sipa: cool. i will look at that, thank you
1238 2011-09-26 13:48:02 <sipa> but too much has changed, i'll need to rewrite it
1239 2011-09-26 13:48:36 <AlexWaters> sipa: it's the oldest pull on my list of things to test asap
1240 2011-09-26 13:49:01 <sipa> i'll close #195 myself as outdated
1241 2011-09-26 13:54:27 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1242 2011-09-26 13:57:01 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1245 2011-09-26 14:01:41 <casascius> I think I might be familiar with one oddball case with key import
1246 2011-09-26 14:02:11 <casascius> with key import, if you import an address you have already sent funds to, the funds don't seem to show up in the balance right away
1247 2011-09-26 14:02:41 <casascius> the funds are there and you can spend them, and seems rescan brings them in (not entirely sure, since I thought import also does a rescan)
1248 2011-09-26 14:03:11 <sipa> casascius: is that still true in recent versions?
1249 2011-09-26 14:03:15 <sipa> if so, you've found a bug
1250 2011-09-26 14:03:31 <casascius> was that known to be true in the past and it's been fixed?  this was not a recent version I have been doing most of this with.
1251 2011-09-26 14:03:46 <sipa> i had a report of that a few months ago, which i believed i fixed
1252 2011-09-26 14:03:46 Bitbird has joined
1253 2011-09-26 14:03:51 <sipa> but i was never able to reproduce it myself
1254 2011-09-26 14:03:55 <sipa> so i'm not sure
1255 2011-09-26 14:04:05 m0mchil has joined
1256 2011-09-26 14:04:14 <casascius> in the past (before I got compiling working) i just used the binary that had been distributed by bitbills on their website
1257 2011-09-26 14:04:25 <sipa> that's *very* old :)
1258 2011-09-26 14:04:25 <casascius> and it's probably old enough to still have tons of bugs that are since fixed
1259 2011-09-26 14:04:59 <sipa> anyway, it won't be rescan that brings it in (import already does a rescan indeed), but just restarting (the wallet caches balances to prevent recalculation, and import should reset those caches)
1260 2011-09-26 14:05:58 <casascius> That sounds consistent with how I figured it worked.  And in that case, the balance recalculation is probably the step that fixed it (without respect to the -rescan I had put on the command line)
1261 2011-09-26 14:06:41 <sipa> i'm not talking about the total balance btw, just the per-wallet-tx balances
1262 2011-09-26 14:08:38 <casascius> for the future, i think my plans on what i will do with my "minikey" patch are as follows: remove all sha256 minikeys, support only PBKDF2 minikeys with three iteration choices (4096, 32768, 131072, and a fourth "invalid" choice to compel someone generating one to not just leave it to chance), and then also support
1263 2011-09-26 14:08:50 <casascius> hexadecimal and base36 for QR codes (formulated exactly like base58, but just with 36 symbols)
1264 2011-09-26 14:09:20 <casascius> *262144 instead of 131072
1265 2011-09-26 14:09:23 <sipa> you're better off with decimal and base36 if you aim for QR
1266 2011-09-26 14:10:36 <casascius> hexadecimal wouldn't be intended for qr...it would more be intended for people who have the hex of the private key (e.g. a script that calls openssl etc.)
1267 2011-09-26 14:10:50 c00w has joined
1268 2011-09-26 14:10:58 <casascius> (otherwise they have to convert it to base 58 which doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose)
1269 2011-09-26 14:11:20 <casascius> Mainly for developers, not for users
1270 2011-09-26 14:12:00 <casascius> Unless there is an objection to putting that in
1271 2011-09-26 14:15:21 yossarian_1 has joined
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1273 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r565c477 / (28 files in 3 dirs):
1274 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Remove wxWidgets
1275 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Makefiles now build bitcoind only.
1276 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: qmake/make in top-level directory is used to build Bitcoin QT
1277 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Deleted almost all #ifdef GUI from the code (left one possibly controversial one)
1278 2011-09-26 14:20:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Deleted xpm/ files. - http://git.io/sAYPEQ
1279 2011-09-26 14:23:42 spq has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214])
1280 2011-09-26 14:24:05 <sipa> casascius: agree, hex may be useful in that sense
1281 2011-09-26 14:24:14 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1282 2011-09-26 14:24:29 <sipa> casascius: PEM-encoded key import/export may be useful too, but i'm not sure that should go in mainline
1283 2011-09-26 14:25:37 <casascius> sipa: agreed, i'd keep it out.  I am thinking casascius coins (the sha256 variety) should be redeemed with a separate redeemer app... I am sold on the need to not encourage less secure methodology in case they become popular non-best choices
1284 2011-09-26 14:26:07 <casascius> if someone has pem, they could probably just use a script referencing openssl to break out the hex, and pipe that onto the command line
1285 2011-09-26 14:27:00 <casascius> or at the very least, wait for someone to give a good use case for distributing priv keys with pem (it seems awfully inconvenient)
1286 2011-09-26 14:28:12 <sipa> they're close to a kb in side, i think
1287 2011-09-26 14:29:04 <phantomcircuit> pem compresses well usually
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1290 2011-09-26 14:32:22 iocor has joined
1291 2011-09-26 14:33:47 <sipa> see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4448.msg73443#msg73443
1292 2011-09-26 14:34:30 <sipa> 720 bytes for a private key
1293 2011-09-26 14:35:34 <phantomcircuit> yeah now gzip that
1294 2011-09-26 14:36:01 <sipa> oh you mean afterwards, sure
1295 2011-09-26 14:36:07 <sipa> it'll compress a factor 2-3 i suppose
1296 2011-09-26 14:38:14 Moonies has joined
1297 2011-09-26 14:38:21 <gmaxwell> A lot of these private key uses cases really cry out for a import mode that instantly spends any funds to hit that address.
1298 2011-09-26 14:38:51 Moonies has quit (Client Quit)
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1303 2011-09-26 14:56:06 <sipa> casascius: i just rebased showwallet branch, and made a small change
1304 2011-09-26 14:56:21 <sipa> i believe the bug should now be fixed
1305 2011-09-26 14:56:40 <sipa> it didn't update transactions already in the wallet when rescanning
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1307 2011-09-26 14:58:26 <casascius> gmaxwell: sort of like "sweepprivkey" proposal I put in wiki?
1308 2011-09-26 14:59:02 <gmaxwell> casascius: In general I want a "tainted" flag that you can put on a private key that causes the client to agressively move any funds out of it.
1309 2011-09-26 14:59:31 <casascius> sipa: not sure if this is a feature or a bug, but if you import multiple bitbills or casascius coins that were sent with sendmany (so they have the same input txid but different outputs) they will all combine as a single transaction
1310 2011-09-26 14:59:50 <sipa> how do you mean?
1311 2011-09-26 14:59:52 <casascius> tainted = always use these funds first on next transaction?
1312 2011-09-26 15:00:00 <gmaxwell> It would also avoid handing the address out to the user.. and perhaps might leave the private key decrypted in memory while bitcoin is running.
1313 2011-09-26 15:00:12 <casascius> if you import 3 bitbills that were produced at the same time, you will see one transaction in the UI for 3.00 rather than three for 1.00
1314 2011-09-26 15:00:15 <gmaxwell> casascius: tainted = as soon as there is any input known to the wallet, spend it to yourself.
1315 2011-09-26 15:00:32 <gmaxwell> Though I guess I can see a benefit in the use first model...
1316 2011-09-26 15:00:45 <sipa> casascius: you mean the wxUI that was just removed? :)
1317 2011-09-26 15:00:51 <gmaxwell> The usecase I was mostly thinking of is where you suspect a key compromise.
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1319 2011-09-26 15:01:03 <casascius> possibly...i dont use the UI much anymore...seems all my bitcoin is done on the command line nowadays
1320 2011-09-26 15:01:20 <sipa> casascius: anyway, the UI always only produced one line per tx, so that seems normal
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1322 2011-09-26 15:01:34 <sipa> a sendmany is still only one tx
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1324 2011-09-26 15:01:48 <casascius> good enough
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1327 2011-09-26 15:03:52 <sipa> casascius: anyway, care to test whether the bug you encounterd with wrongly cached balances is fixed?
1328 2011-09-26 15:03:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: the rpc transaction output is kinda confusing for sendmanys…
1329 2011-09-26 15:04:03 <casascius> sure
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1332 2011-09-26 15:07:12 <casascius> i sent 1 btc to a paperwallet....will import it after get kids ready for school (this will give it chance to confirm)
1333 2011-09-26 15:08:22 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #34: FAILURE in 5 min 28 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/34/
1334 2011-09-26 15:08:22 <BlueMattBot> * calebdelisle: Add some hardening to protect against unknown/future exploits.
1335 2011-09-26 15:08:23 <BlueMattBot> * gavinandresen: Bump version to 0.4.1
1336 2011-09-26 15:08:23 <BlueMattBot> * gavinandresen: Skip verifying transaction signatures during initial block-chain download
1337 2011-09-26 15:08:24 <BlueMattBot> * gavinandresen: Remove wxWidgets
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1353 2011-09-26 15:25:11 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r81cadd7 / (4 files): Fix build: put back rules to build cryptopp files - http://git.io/bRa-pQ
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1358 2011-09-26 15:33:38 <cosurgi> LongPoll + ntime test at slush's https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg545434#msg545434
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1361 2011-09-26 15:34:56 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #35: STILL FAILING in 6 min 16 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/35/
1362 2011-09-26 15:34:57 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Fix build: put back rules to build cryptopp files
1363 2011-09-26 15:35:22 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|...
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1365 2011-09-26 15:35:28 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|fail
1366 2011-09-26 15:35:35 <gavinandresen> strip: 'bitcoin': No such file
1367 2011-09-26 15:35:41 <gavinandresen> That's a build-script error....
1368 2011-09-26 15:36:01 <diki> hey guys..if i a pool were to keep the fees it gets from blocks, is a pool still 0 fee considering it pays the full 50 bitcoins?
1369 2011-09-26 15:36:06 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|gavinandresen, buildsystem isnt supposed to strip
1370 2011-09-26 15:36:16 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|diki, yes
1371 2011-09-26 15:36:44 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|the pool does the txn work, not the miners
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1373 2011-09-26 15:36:57 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|so its only logical it gets those fees
1374 2011-09-26 15:38:05 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|gavinandresen, cryptopp really should be removed from the bitcoind git
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1376 2011-09-26 15:38:46 <gavinandresen> luke-jr|otg: yes, I agree.
1377 2011-09-26 15:39:56 <gavinandresen> luke-jr|otg: ... but that's not high priority this morning.
1378 2011-09-26 15:40:15 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|yawn
1379 2011-09-26 15:40:21 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|not like its hard
1380 2011-09-26 15:40:32 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|git rm cryptopp
1381 2011-09-26 15:40:33 <gavinandresen> (I'm working on an INSTALL in the top-level directory that points people to build instructions in doc/, and working on correcting build instructions in doc/build-* right now....)
1382 2011-09-26 15:40:34 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|:P
1383 2011-09-26 15:41:02 <gavinandresen> luke-jr|otg: doesn't the check-a-block code run the cryptopp sha256?
1384 2011-09-26 15:41:09 <diki> at which block is it expected for the reward to be reduced to 25 coins per block?
1385 2011-09-26 15:41:24 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|gavinandresen, -lcryptopp
1386 2011-09-26 15:41:35 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|gavinandresen, its called a dependency
1387 2011-09-26 15:42:13 <gavinandresen> luke-jr|otg: mmm.... you willing to figure out what --lcryptopp means on OSX and mingw?
1388 2011-09-26 15:43:08 <gavinandresen> ... like I said, not a high priority this morning....
1389 2011-09-26 15:43:09 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|windows should be basically the same
1390 2011-09-26 15:43:19 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|just throw the dll in the install dir
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1392 2011-09-26 15:43:41 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|I like to pretend os x doesn't exist
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1394 2011-09-26 15:45:35 <tcatm> can't we still link cryptopp statically when using the external lib?
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1396 2011-09-26 15:48:04 <tcatm> it looks like cryptopp is used for the internal miner only. AcceptBlock() uses openssl
1397 2011-09-26 15:49:26 <tcatm> as the internal miner is mostly just a reference implementation I think we could change it to use openssl, too, and remove the cryptopp dependency
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1399 2011-09-26 15:49:52 <gmaxwell> Well, if there is a big performance difference it might slow initial block sync no?
1400 2011-09-26 15:50:24 <tcatm> no, the miner is only used when you activate it manually using RPC or commandline switches
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1402 2011-09-26 15:51:14 <gmaxwell> oh you just said it was internal miner only.
1403 2011-09-26 15:51:20 <gmaxwell> I'll shutup now.
1404 2011-09-26 15:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * radea540 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Update build instructions for the new, no-wxwidgets world - http://git.io/tUZK1w
1405 2011-09-26 15:51:46 <tcatm> gavinandresen: is there any testframework in bitcoin where I could add some "hash this block and compare the hash" testcases?
1406 2011-09-26 15:52:22 <gavinandresen> tcatm: Sure, src/test/   -- just add some unit tests
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1408 2011-09-26 15:53:17 <tcatm> oh cool, didn't notice that directory
1409 2011-09-26 15:54:10 <gavinandresen> tcatm: makefile dependencies are screwed up for test_bitcoin though-- you will probably need to touch src/test/test_bitcoin.cpp  when you modify your tests
1410 2011-09-26 15:55:13 <casascius> sipa: the bug is still present: I imported my 1 BTC but it didn't reflect in the balance until i restarted bitcoind
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1415 2011-09-26 15:58:03 <gmaxwell> casascius: I assume you waited for the rescan?
1416 2011-09-26 15:58:36 <casascius> gmaxwell: yes, i uncommented the code I had previously disabled that automatically rescans after importprivkey is run
1417 2011-09-26 15:59:55 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #36: STILL FAILING in 6 min 15 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/36/
1418 2011-09-26 15:59:56 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Update build instructions for the new, no-wxwidgets world
1419 2011-09-26 16:00:25 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ping?  Or anybody else:  where does the jenkins build script live?
1420 2011-09-26 16:00:28 <casascius> http://pastebin.com/pfRytUCZ
1421 2011-09-26 16:00:44 <casascius> oops http://pastebin.com/PfRytUCZ
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1437 2011-09-26 16:21:12 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|tcatm, static linking for backward OSX might make sense
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1451 2011-09-26 16:45:47 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib: Stefan Thomas master * rfa97237 / (.gitignore Jakefile.js build/bitcoinjs-min.js package.json): Added rudimentary build system. - http://git.io/BO6QSw
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1470 2011-09-26 17:06:53 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: why did you remove the ability to build wx gui?
1471 2011-09-26 17:07:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: because supporting two guis ain't gonna happen.
1472 2011-09-26 17:07:53 <sipa> casascius: ok, thanks for testing, i'll keep looking
1473 2011-09-26 17:08:07 <gavinandresen> ... or, to put it another way: because nobody stepped up and said "I'll go through all the wxwidgets issues and fix them..."
1474 2011-09-26 17:08:18 <casascius> sipa: does importprivkey scan the waiting transaction pool?  (or is it supposed to, or not supposed to, by design?)
1475 2011-09-26 17:08:27 <BlueMatt> a lot of work had already gone into making the qt gui buildable side-by-side with wx, plus (hopefully someday) we could get a cocoa one as well
1476 2011-09-26 17:09:02 <sipa> casascius: never thought about that; no it doesn't but it probably should
1477 2011-09-26 17:09:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: are you familiar with the economics term "sunk costs" ?
1478 2011-09-26 17:09:27 <Optimo> b4epoche made the cocoa one. though maybe it has more than the basics, he's got probably a good start
1479 2011-09-26 17:09:32 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes?
1480 2011-09-26 17:09:39 <Blitzboom> in bitcoinland we’re all econ profs now :D
1481 2011-09-26 17:09:54 <casascius> i am assuming that any pending transactions would show up once included into a block though
1482 2011-09-26 17:09:59 <tcatm> it might be a good idea to tag the commit just before wx was removed so someone who really wants to have wx can checkout an older version
1483 2011-09-26 17:10:04 <b4epoche> what?
1484 2011-09-26 17:10:06 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: just because somebody spent lots of time planning for something that didn't happen, doesn't mean we should spent MORE time on that something....
1485 2011-09-26 17:10:20 <BlueMatt> m, true, but cocoa gui would be nice
1486 2011-09-26 17:10:21 <gavinandresen> tcatm: that commit is version 0.4
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1489 2011-09-26 17:10:49 <BlueMatt> also, is it just me or does building now take significantly longer?
1490 2011-09-26 17:10:56 <b4epoche> cocoa gui is being worked on...
1491 2011-09-26 17:11:00 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'd be happy to pull a cocoa gui, but first it should go through the same process the QT gui did-- separate branch that a bunch of people used/tested, etc
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1493 2011-09-26 17:11:32 <b4epoche> trying to figure out the best way to bring up notification about fees
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1495 2011-09-26 17:11:46 <BlueMatt> wow cocoa build really fills up the top level build dir...
1496 2011-09-26 17:11:50 <BlueMatt> s/cocoa/qt/
1497 2011-09-26 17:12:12 <Optimo> b4epoche should apply
1498 2011-09-26 17:12:18 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: is there a way to tell qmake to put the .o files in a subdir?
1499 2011-09-26 17:12:21 <b4epoche> see prior discussion about UI still being coupled with wallet.cpp
1500 2011-09-26 17:12:23 <devrandom> speaking of sunk costs, BlueMatt - did you see my msg re wxwidgets gitian build?
1501 2011-09-26 17:12:38 <b4epoche> Optimo:??
1502 2011-09-26 17:12:48 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I did, not had a chance to look at it though...
1503 2011-09-26 17:12:53 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: looking for it...
1504 2011-09-26 17:12:59 <Optimo> apply to roll your project into the cocoa branch-to-be
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1506 2011-09-26 17:13:11 <casascius> I wonder why we have a UI and bitcoind linked together.  In my mind they would be better either separate, or compilable in a way where they can be standalone OR linked together.  This way, changes to platform-specific UI's can have their own lifecycle separate from bitcoind, which ought to have way more scrutiny on changes relative to UI
1507 2011-09-26 17:13:12 <Optimo> after pruning all the extraneous bits
1508 2011-09-26 17:13:23 <b4epoche> ah
1509 2011-09-26 17:13:32 <b4epoche> maybe next week...
1510 2011-09-26 17:14:17 <casascius> then many of these one-off features that would never be appropriate for the main bitcoind would fit just fine in joe blow's custom UI
1511 2011-09-26 17:16:09 <casascius> also one instance of bitcoind would be able to support multiple bitcoin users on a single machine or at a single site, sort of how one smtp server does all their mail
1512 2011-09-26 17:16:25 <casascius> (assuming wallet were in the UI)
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1518 2011-09-26 17:19:18 <gavinandresen> casascius: what do you think are the biggest barriers to bitcoin becoming more successful?
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1522 2011-09-26 17:20:41 <Optimo> the app? or the technology?
1523 2011-09-26 17:21:13 <Optimo> exchange price stability is gonna be hurting the use of teh currency
1524 2011-09-26 17:21:21 <Optimo> or lack thereof, I shoudl say
1525 2011-09-26 17:21:51 <casascius> if there was a #1 or a top 3, it would be the perception by the public that it is too difficult to use, too risky in light of all the thefts, and that they don't have a use for it that makes it worth their while to bother with it
1526 2011-09-26 17:22:21 <Optimo> the browser plugin would take care of #1
1527 2011-09-26 17:22:23 <Blitzboom> i think we need better organization/PR
1528 2011-09-26 17:22:35 <Blitzboom> and of course user-friendly solutions
1529 2011-09-26 17:22:35 <Optimo> #3 is just a matter of time
1530 2011-09-26 17:22:57 <Blitzboom> although i haven’t been asked
1531 2011-09-26 17:23:02 <casascius> to me, even just a very simple use case that touched all three - so that bitcoin was practical for the average barely-can-hold-a-job-bad-credit-no-credit kind of guy, that's all it would take
1532 2011-09-26 17:23:06 <Optimo> hosted wallets with some kind of fool-proof protocol would help #2
1533 2011-09-26 17:23:10 <gavinandresen> Optimo casascius :  I agree with both of you.  I don't think de-linking the bitcoin GUI and bitcoind helps with any of that, so it isn't a priority for me.
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1535 2011-09-26 17:23:44 <Blitzboom> gavinandresen: what do you think of a bitcoin foundation or something like that?
1536 2011-09-26 17:23:45 <gavinandresen> Blitzboom: I think we've had too much PR in the last six months.
1537 2011-09-26 17:23:47 <Optimo> #2 needs something like an FDIC, but I don't think mtgox is gonna pony-up that kind of insurance ;p
1538 2011-09-26 17:24:15 <casascius> I think de-linking them indirectly helps with #1, that it's too difficult to use.  Changes to the UI have to be as slow as molasses when they are combined with bitcoind, but few are in a position to write their own client because they ahve to very closely duplicate (not to mention retest) every function of bitcoind.
1539 2011-09-26 17:24:16 <Blitzboom> gavinandresen: i agree, but i’m thinking of the communication in/with the bitcoin community
1540 2011-09-26 17:24:19 <Optimo> too much PR... interesting. only time will tell
1541 2011-09-26 17:24:40 <gavinandresen> Blitzboom: I think a bitcoin foundation could be a good idea, as long as it has a well-defined purpose and doesn't try to become the Bitcoin Central Organizing Committee
1542 2011-09-26 17:25:06 <Blitzboom> i’d just like to see a bit more structure in all our ventures
1543 2011-09-26 17:25:10 <casascius> So delinking them would lead to a much smaller burden (and far better focus) for someone who wants to write a better UI.  For example, it's Sept 2011 and we don't even have anything to tell the user that they have to wait for blocks to download.  (unless it's recent and I missed it)
1544 2011-09-26 17:25:11 <Optimo> while we have time invested in a hobby, we could also afford to wait a year to see if these issues don't work themselves out (save for the theft issue, which can be hlped by better tech)
1545 2011-09-26 17:25:31 <gavinandresen> casascius: bitcoin-qt handles that nicely
1546 2011-09-26 17:25:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/532
1547 2011-09-26 17:25:45 <Optimo> casascius, b4epoche's cocoa bitcoin app has some cool features
1548 2011-09-26 17:25:46 <casascius> If someone could focus on writing their own UI and wallet, and not have to worry about p2p or block validation, their project would be about a quarter the size, and their focus four times as great
1549 2011-09-26 17:26:08 erus` has joined
1550 2011-09-26 17:26:08 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Matt Corallo master * r36eccc5 / (.gitignore bitcoin-qt.pro): Output build temp files in build/ instead of current directory. - http://git.io/H6Ykww
1551 2011-09-26 17:26:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r9a1ce86 / (.gitignore bitcoin-qt.pro):
1552 2011-09-26 17:26:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #532 from TheBlueMatt/build-updates
1553 2011-09-26 17:26:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Output build temp files in build/ instead of current directory. - http://git.io/t4ul4g
1554 2011-09-26 17:26:29 <gavinandresen> (I'm just in a pulling mood today)
1555 2011-09-26 17:26:55 <b4epoche> casascius:  I basically have two builds based on the same project.
1556 2011-09-26 17:27:18 <Optimo> tehre's reason to reign-in some of these enevitable branches that have niche features, like a progress bar that at least takes a stab at estimating the current block count
1557 2011-09-26 17:27:19 <b4epoche> one essentially mimics the basic wxbitcoin ui.
1558 2011-09-26 17:27:30 <Blitzboom> Optimo: don’t forget that it’s not just time
1559 2011-09-26 17:27:31 <b4epoche> the other adds a lot of integration with exchanges, etc.
1560 2011-09-26 17:27:32 <Blitzboom> it’s money
1561 2011-09-26 17:27:57 <Optimo> are the programmers here not all doing this for hobby interests?
1562 2011-09-26 17:28:08 <Optimo> and alltrusism
1563 2011-09-26 17:28:10 <Blitzboom> i believe gavin is getting paid
1564 2011-09-26 17:28:14 <Blitzboom> by trucoin
1565 2011-09-26 17:28:16 <Optimo> oh
1566 2011-09-26 17:28:24 <Optimo> I should brush up then
1567 2011-09-26 17:28:25 <Blitzboom> which i like
1568 2011-09-26 17:29:03 <Optimo> a bitcoin foundation would be able to help in that respect
1569 2011-09-26 17:29:07 <gavinandresen> yup, I'm getting paid by TruCoin to work on core bitcoin 95% of the time (and work on TruCoin stuff 5% of the time)
1570 2011-09-26 17:29:38 <Optimo> then again, you've got these early-adopter vendors taht could probably pay you in merch ;)
1571 2011-09-26 17:29:59 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #37: ABORTED in 1 min 17 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/37/
1572 2011-09-26 17:29:59 <BlueMattBot> Matt Corallo: Output build temp files in build/ instead of current directory.
1573 2011-09-26 17:30:04 <casascius> just trying to build bitcoin-qt...the makefile-linux.mingw has a build target of "bitcoin.exe"?
1574 2011-09-26 17:30:19 <BlueMatt> cacheson: makefile.linux-mingw hasnt been updated
1575 2011-09-26 17:30:49 <BlueMatt> oh, yes it has
1576 2011-09-26 17:30:53 <gavinandresen> I thought I changed that a couple of hours ago....
1577 2011-09-26 17:31:05 <gavinandresen> ... I DID change that a couple of hours ago
1578 2011-09-26 17:31:47 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/makefile.linux-mingw   has no bitcoin.exe target
1579 2011-09-26 17:33:23 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1580 2011-09-26 17:33:36 <BlueMatt> devrandom: can you send over a copy of the zip file which you got as gitian output for wx?
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1583 2011-09-26 17:39:51 <devrandom> BlueMatt: do you need the actual zip, or just the report with the individual file sums?
1584 2011-09-26 17:39:59 <BlueMatt> devrandom: either one
1585 2011-09-26 17:40:24 <casascius> is bitcoin-qt meant for a specific platform?
1586 2011-09-26 17:40:31 <nexes> Does anyone know of a good written explanation of how tx fees are calculated, or is the code the only accurate place to look for it?
1587 2011-09-26 17:42:00 <devrandom> BlueMatt: https://github.com/devrandom/wxWidgets-release/tree/master/2.9.2/devrandom
1588 2011-09-26 17:42:28 <BlueMatt> devrandom: no, I meant the sums of the files in the zip
1589 2011-09-26 17:42:36 <casascius> the bitcoin.exe is at laanwj/bitcoin-qt.git
1590 2011-09-26 17:43:16 <casascius> is there somewhere else i should be looking
1591 2011-09-26 17:43:45 <gavinandresen> casascius: hmm?  I pulled bitcoin-qt into https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/  master branch this morning
1592 2011-09-26 17:43:45 <devrandom> oh, sorry, I forgot the report only has the zip
1593 2011-09-26 17:43:47 <devrandom> sec
1594 2011-09-26 17:44:01 <casascius> i'll try it
1595 2011-09-26 17:44:13 <gavinandresen> casascius: and it is for mac/windows/linux
1596 2011-09-26 17:44:40 * BlueMatt has a feeling getting bitcoin-qt to cross compile and then get it deterministic is gonna take forever...
1597 2011-09-26 17:44:49 <devrandom> BlueMatt: have to rebuild and relocate, bbiab
1598 2011-09-26 17:46:23 <BlueMatt> fair enough
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1604 2011-09-26 17:48:05 <casascius> i just cloned git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git into a new directory...
1605 2011-09-26 17:48:35 <casascius> makefile.linux-mingw contains the line: "all: bitcoind.exe"
1606 2011-09-26 17:48:55 <casascius> and "bitcoind.exe: $(OBJS:obj/%=obj/nogui/%) obj/ui_res.o
1607 2011-09-26 17:50:06 <gavinandresen> casascius: right, bitcoind is the headless bitcoin daemon....   see the INSTALL file one-level up
1608 2011-09-26 17:50:30 <gavinandresen> (err, READ the INSTALL file... then read the doc/bitcoin-qt.rst and/or doc/build-foo.txt files)
1609 2011-09-26 17:50:52 <diki> i am having a hard trouble here
1610 2011-09-26 17:51:04 <diki> how do i get the block number from the number of confirmations a block has?
1611 2011-09-26 17:52:15 <casascius> thanks, doing what it says now
1612 2011-09-26 17:53:51 Bitbird has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1613 2011-09-26 17:56:07 <diki> Ok, i think i got how to get the block number
1614 2011-09-26 17:56:23 <diki> currentblocknum - numconfirms + 1
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1616 2011-09-26 17:58:23 <casascius> gavin: you mentioned that bitcoin-qt handles something nicely...though I had mentioned quite a few things just before that.  Which in particular were you referring to?
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1620 2011-09-26 18:03:58 <casascius> If there was a #2 obstacle to bitcoin adoption, it would be the difficulty for the average unbanked joe to buy and sell bitcoins (and somewhat paired with joe's concern they will disappear)
1621 2011-09-26 18:04:50 <gmaxwell> casascius: I thought you were solving that one?
1622 2011-09-26 18:04:55 <casascius> and also to safely hold them
1623 2011-09-26 18:05:10 <casascius> gmaxwell: I'm tryin' =)  Gavin had just asked what I thought the biggest obstacles to adoption were.
1624 2011-09-26 18:05:38 <casascius> I have a buddy who runs a pawn shop.  He would sell bitcoins tomorrow if he could be persuaded it were easy and risk free.
1625 2011-09-26 18:06:10 <gmaxwell> casascius: it would be neat if you could get some product similar to a cuecat in its unit cost for electronically reading your coins.
1626 2011-09-26 18:06:27 <casascius> gmaxwell: for cashing them in?  or checking their balance?
1627 2011-09-26 18:06:31 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1628 2011-09-26 18:06:54 BlueMatt has joined
1629 2011-09-26 18:07:07 <gmaxwell> (I ~think~ the former is more important, people will just trust the balance based on the sticker, and you're secrewed if that isn't good enough for people)
1630 2011-09-26 18:07:10 <casascius> What I am hoping to do is just offer bigger denomination coins, so people don't have a desire to cash in such a large pile of coins that they feel they need a reader to do it
1631 2011-09-26 18:07:25 <nexes> Does someone know if the new minimum tx fee is just the absolute minimum, or is it also now 0.005 BTC/KB now?
1632 2011-09-26 18:07:52 <gmaxwell> nexes: the absolute minimum is zero.
1633 2011-09-26 18:08:34 <gmaxwell> the 0.00_0_5 also gets applied to the per KB for txn too large to be free, IIRC.
1634 2011-09-26 18:09:21 <nexes> gmaxwell: Ah, okay. Thanks.
1635 2011-09-26 18:09:22 <casascius> My pawn shop buddy would have no problem selling bitcoins if it were a matter of activating some sort of card and handing it to the customer with an activation receipt, the same way he does a prepaid phone card.  It gets a little bit muddy if he has to get a bitcoin address from the customer, which he may not have
1636 2011-09-26 18:11:55 <casascius> It would also be difficult to persuade him that he should "hold" bitcoins, because he might have no interest in that.  He could probably be talked into owning a few hundred MtGox USD but then he worries about them taking his money.
1637 2011-09-26 18:12:08 <casascius> (That's not a technical issue though)
1638 2011-09-26 18:12:28 <casascius> (but it does present opportunities for ways to get around it).
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1640 2011-09-26 18:13:22 <casascius> If I could give pawn shop buddy a credit card machine, which either can dispense bitcoins pre-loaded into it, or can connect to a service and execute a transaction somewhere else that leaves him only liable for the current USD value of the bitcoins he sold, he would have no reason to say no.
1641 2011-09-26 18:14:22 <casascius> Many modern credit card machines have very good security - including physical security - of the sort that erases encryption keys upon detecting potential tampering, including case opening, major temperature changes, etc.
1642 2011-09-26 18:15:17 Nightblade has joined
1643 2011-09-26 18:15:28 <casascius> So to produce a standalone "bitcoin dispenser" that never communicates is actually practical.  (simply load it up with private keys).  It would only be able to spit out pre-denominated amounts, but it would work.
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1647 2011-09-26 18:17:12 <casascius> If he could dispense bitcoins the same way he would dispense a money order, he would totally do it.
1648 2011-09-26 18:19:21 <casascius> I have a licensed copy of the SDK for a major company's credit card machines, and have written apps targeting them in the past.
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1650 2011-09-26 18:26:44 <EskimoBob> Hi, can someone do some haxt0r magic so "-I/usr/include/db4.8" gets added to bitcoin-qt Makefile
1651 2011-09-26 18:26:47 Diablo-D3 has joined
1652 2011-09-26 18:37:43 <EskimoBob> btw, bitcoin-qt looks sweet :) finally a good looking client for KDE
1653 2011-09-26 18:37:47 <EskimoBob> thanx
1654 2011-09-26 18:39:38 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1655 2011-09-26 18:41:33 <casascius> i agree it looks really good
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1677 2011-09-26 19:30:26 <BlueMatt> does bitcoin use qt3 or 4?
1678 2011-09-26 19:31:22 <tcatm> 4
1679 2011-09-26 19:31:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nobody's touched qt3 in years…
1680 2011-09-26 19:32:07 * BlueMatt knows nothing about qt, only wondered if qt3 compat had to be turned on for a bitcoin-specific build
1681 2011-09-26 19:32:27 <luke-jr> Qt3Support is Qt4
1682 2011-09-26 19:32:33 <luke-jr> but shouldn't be needed by any new code
1683 2011-09-26 19:32:37 <luke-jr> just ported code, like KDE
1684 2011-09-26 19:32:44 <sipa> i get this command line:
1685 2011-09-26 19:32:46 <sipa> g++ -c -pipe -fstack-protector -O2 -fdiagnostics-show-option -Wall -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wno-unused-variable -Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-sign-compare -Wno-char-subscripts -Wno-unused-value -Wno-sequence-point -Wno-parentheses -Wno-unknown-pragmas -Wno-switch -D_REENTRANT -DQT_GUI -DQT_NO_DEBUG -DQT_GUI_LIB -DQT_CORE_LIB -DQT_SHARED -I/usr/share/qt4/mkspecs/linux-g++ -I/usr/include/qt4/QtCore -I/usr/include/qt4/QtGui -I/usr/include/qt4...
1686 2011-09-26 19:32:52 <sipa> -Isrc -Isrc/json -Isrc/cryptopp -Isrc/qt -Ibuild -Ibuild -o build/bitcoin.o src/qt/bitcoin.cpp
1687 2011-09-26 19:32:56 <sipa> so i guess that's qt4
1688 2011-09-26 19:35:53 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
1689 2011-09-26 19:36:57 <luke-jr> any opinions on where to merge cjdelisle's feature-hardening CFLAGS (-fstack-protector-all -Wstack-protector -Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2) to bitcoin-stable?
1690 2011-09-26 19:36:58 <tcatm> do pools use "midstate" from getwork? I'd like to deprecate that field to simplify the code of the internal miner
1691 2011-09-26 19:37:23 <luke-jr> tcatm: at least CPU miners do, IIRC
1692 2011-09-26 19:38:10 <sipa> luke-jr: how do you mean "where" ?
1693 2011-09-26 19:38:16 <luke-jr> whether*
1694 2011-09-26 19:38:18 <luke-jr> sorry XD
1695 2011-09-26 19:38:32 <mtrlt> tcatm: pools have to send it, miners don't have to use it.
1696 2011-09-26 19:38:48 <sipa> luke-jr: you do have the advantage that you can observe how patches behave in mainline
1697 2011-09-26 19:39:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, gitian builds already have most of those because they are built on debian/ubuntu
1698 2011-09-26 19:39:47 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what are your plans wrt building releases, btw?
1699 2011-09-26 19:40:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: plan right now is to make a source tarball, ask Gavin to publish it on the website(s), and ask whoever makes binaries to make those
1700 2011-09-26 19:40:28 <BlueMatt> mmm
1701 2011-09-26 19:40:33 <BlueMatt> fair enough
1702 2011-09-26 19:40:37 Props has joined
1703 2011-09-26 19:40:47 <luke-jr> if we only end up with an off-site tarball, so be it
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1705 2011-09-26 19:43:07 <sipa> luke-jr: so you plan to use the fourth version number for bitcoin-stable releases?
1706 2011-09-26 19:43:23 <luke-jr> Gentoo has at least RELRO and _FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 by default, so I guess those are safe
1707 2011-09-26 19:43:26 <luke-jr> sipa: third
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1709 2011-09-26 19:43:33 <sipa> eh, right
1710 2011-09-26 19:43:36 <luke-jr> sipa: Gavin already announced the next version from mainline is 0.5
1711 2011-09-26 19:43:41 <luke-jr> not sure why he committed 0.4.1
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1713 2011-09-26 19:44:12 <sipa> luke-jr: if a bugfix release is necessary, and the qt-merged version isn't ready, it will be 0.4.1
1714 2011-09-26 19:44:26 <sipa> (that's what i assume his reasoning is)
1715 2011-09-26 19:44:33 <luke-jr> sipa: he committed 0.4.1 after qt :p
1716 2011-09-26 19:44:41 <sipa> i know
1717 2011-09-26 19:45:31 <luke-jr> anyhow, I emailed him & -dev, hopign for a clarification at least
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1721 2011-09-26 19:48:08 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44330.msg529670#msg529670
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1724 2011-09-26 19:56:13 <devrandom> BlueMatt: pong
1725 2011-09-26 19:56:35 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1727 2011-09-26 19:57:11 <luke-jr> sipa: that was pre-stable I think
1728 2011-09-26 19:57:20 <luke-jr> and again, it doesn't explain Qt code having 0.4.1 :P
1729 2011-09-26 19:57:28 <sipa> it's a bit strange yes
1730 2011-09-26 19:57:28 <BlueMatt> devrandom: only file different is bin/32/wx/include/gtk2-unicode-static-2.9/wx/setup.h, can you send over a copy of that file
1731 2011-09-26 19:57:58 da2ce7 has joined
1732 2011-09-26 19:58:10 <BlueMatt> devrandom: also, whats the hash of the wxWidgets-2.9.2.tar.bz2 input?
1733 2011-09-26 19:58:36 <sipa> devrandom: sorry, didn't have time to get gitian up again
1734 2011-09-26 19:58:50 <devrandom> sipa: ok
1735 2011-09-26 19:59:24 <devrandom> BlueMatt: ab63717ac1015e368bc8b51ad6f5578c89ad31351c97aa6b6041bd12ad51c0c8  inputs/wxWidgets-2.9.2.tar.bz2
1736 2011-09-26 20:00:01 <BlueMatt> yea, input is the same, its just that .h file...which is really odd
1737 2011-09-26 20:00:27 <devrandom> BlueMatt: #define WXWIN_OS_DESCRIPTION "Linux 2.6.32-30-generic-pae i686"
1738 2011-09-26 20:00:40 <devrandom> is that the issue?  different kernel version?
1739 2011-09-26 20:00:45 <BlueMatt> could be...one sec
1740 2011-09-26 20:00:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: cjdelisle stable * r3f94dfa25fc1 bitcoind-stable/ (doc/build-unix.txt src/makefile.unix): Add some hardening to protect against unknown/future exploits.
1741 2011-09-26 20:00:53 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr stable * r7944d81567bf bitcoind-stable/ (doc/build-unix.txt src/makefile.unix): Merge commit '3f94dfa' into stable
1742 2011-09-26 20:01:16 <BlueMatt> devrandom: mine is #define WXWIN_OS_DESCRIPTION "Linux 2.6.32-33-generic-pae i686"
1743 2011-09-26 20:01:21 <BlueMatt> so...yea thats the issue
1744 2011-09-26 20:01:39 <sipa> wait, how can the kernel version of the VM differ?
1745 2011-09-26 20:01:49 <luke-jr> …
1746 2011-09-26 20:01:55 <BlueMatt> the vms are created when you run bin/make-base-vm
1747 2011-09-26 20:02:03 <BlueMatt> so we could be very far off
1748 2011-09-26 20:02:10 <devrandom> the builder doesn't update it and reboot
1749 2011-09-26 20:03:41 <devrandom> so should we just substitute a constant in there?  the kernel version is relatively unimportant to the build process
1750 2011-09-26 20:04:16 <sipa> does Qt have something similar?
1751 2011-09-26 20:04:33 <BlueMatt> it would be nice for uname, etc to return generic strings, but tbh its not a big deal, just make-base-vm right before the actual release, Id say
1752 2011-09-26 20:04:38 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1753 2011-09-26 20:04:57 <sipa> running strings on the bitcoin-qt binary doesn't show anything with "Linux" in it
1754 2011-09-26 20:05:09 <sipa> so i suppose it's only a problem for 0.4.0
1755 2011-09-26 20:05:19 <devrandom> cool
1756 2011-09-26 20:05:57 <BlueMatt> its not a problem for bitcoin (the actual binaries produced should be the same) and it could very well be a problem for qt
1757 2011-09-26 20:06:19 <BlueMatt> the good thing about qt is we arent building ourselves, just using debian packages
1758 2011-09-26 20:06:31 <BlueMatt> so it could be a problem for qt-win32 gitian zips, but other than that no
1759 2011-09-26 20:06:49 <sipa> ah right, of course
1760 2011-09-26 20:07:00 <sipa> we weren't talking about the binaries but the linked libraries
1761 2011-09-26 20:07:20 <BlueMatt> yea, and in this case not even the library, but an odd header file in the library
1762 2011-09-26 20:09:10 da2ce7 has joined
1763 2011-09-26 20:09:19 <devrandom> okay, I'll fire off a build and check on it later
1764 2011-09-26 20:09:46 <devrandom> bbiab
1765 2011-09-26 20:15:03 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * r2cfb4e6 / webservice/module.js : Added JSONP support. Some code simplification. - http://git.io/l1ea-g
1766 2011-09-26 20:15:23 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1767 2011-09-26 20:20:18 <Diablo-D3> holy shit
1768 2011-09-26 20:20:25 <Diablo-D3> mrb_: your block is on hn
1769 2011-09-26 20:20:43 <Diablo-D3> its now the third link
1770 2011-09-26 20:22:19 <Diablo-D3> oh wait
1771 2011-09-26 20:22:21 <Diablo-D3> you submitted it
1772 2011-09-26 20:22:23 <Diablo-D3> damn you
1773 2011-09-26 20:23:08 da2ce7 has joined
1774 2011-09-26 20:24:08 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: ?
1775 2011-09-26 20:26:11 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1776 2011-09-26 20:26:32 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: shush, the cool people are talking
1777 2011-09-26 20:27:16 m00p has joined
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1788 2011-09-26 20:42:19 <casascius> has the link to berkeley db been changed in the most recent addition of qt?  (version / or whether statically linked?)
1789 2011-09-26 20:42:33 denisx has joined
1790 2011-09-26 20:42:34 <casascius> my pre-QT version doesn't want to read my db files
1791 2011-09-26 20:42:42 <luke-jr> casascius: yes
1792 2011-09-26 20:42:50 <BlueMatt> change happened in 0.4
1793 2011-09-26 20:42:51 <BlueMatt> pre qt
1794 2011-09-26 20:42:52 <casascius> thought i would just recompile the old one (with importprivkey) so I can keep working
1795 2011-09-26 20:43:00 <casascius> I think 0.4 is throwing a fit (0.4.0)
1796 2011-09-26 20:43:06 <luke-jr> O.o
1797 2011-09-26 20:43:18 <BlueMatt> have you read the release notes?
1798 2011-09-26 20:43:21 <casascius> no coins are at risk, i just don't want to d/l another blockchain
1799 2011-09-26 20:43:42 <sipa> just put blk0001.dat en blkindex.dat in the directory of a fresh install?
1800 2011-09-26 20:43:49 <casascius> Yeah I noticed the mention of the change in there, but basically want to know how i can make the change to my importprivkey version, if it's simple
1801 2011-09-26 20:44:11 <casascius> isn't blkindex.dat going to be out of date?
1802 2011-09-26 20:44:21 <sipa> what is out of date of it?
1803 2011-09-26 20:44:27 <casascius> berkeley db version
1804 2011-09-26 20:44:39 <sipa> database file format didn't change
1805 2011-09-26 20:44:44 <sipa> only the log file format
1806 2011-09-26 20:44:56 <casascius> rename the logs and maybe i'm good?
1807 2011-09-26 20:45:02 <sipa> just delete them
1808 2011-09-26 20:45:12 <sipa> if you exited cleanly
1809 2011-09-26 20:45:39 <casascius> looks like that worked...thanks
1810 2011-09-26 20:45:54 <casascius> exit was clean
1811 2011-09-26 20:46:32 <luke-jr> casascius: you can build old versions with bdb 4.8 too\
1812 2011-09-26 20:47:57 <casascius> yeah that's what i was thinking of doing...is there an easy way to fix that?  (simple change to makefile etc.?)
1813 2011-09-26 20:49:12 <sipa> the makefile just uses whatever you have installed
1814 2011-09-26 20:49:12 <casascius> DbEnv::open(): Invalid argument
1815 2011-09-26 20:49:27 <casascius> sipa: that's what i would have thought, but i compiled these both and am getting the errors
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1820 2011-09-26 20:50:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r175b7090fccb gentoo/net-p2p/wxbitcoin/ (Manifest wxbitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/wxbitcoin: There is no more 9999/git version
1821 2011-09-26 20:50:22 da2ce7 has joined
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1824 2011-09-26 20:52:24 <casascius> hmm...who knows...cleaned *.o and recompiled, seems ok for now
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1826 2011-09-26 20:58:01 rdponticelli has joined
1827 2011-09-26 20:58:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd1904baecbbc gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-9999.1.ebuild bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt: Use mainline git repository for 9999, and provide not-yet-mainline bitcoin-qt on 9999.1
1828 2011-09-26 20:58:05 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r3c80f2342394 gentoo/licenses/AMD-ADL: Add missing AMD-ADL license
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1834 2011-09-26 21:11:31 <Nebuluz> for pool setup, is bitcoind 3.2.4 with joel's patch still recommanded or will bitcoind 4.0 work fine?
1835 2011-09-26 21:12:45 <sipa> it's 0.3.24 and 0.4.0, and 0.4.0 will work fine
1836 2011-09-26 21:12:51 erle- has joined
1837 2011-09-26 21:14:35 <Nebuluz> ah ok, just curious did joel's patch got merged into 0.4.0?
1838 2011-09-26 21:14:42 <luke-jr> Nebuluz: recommended is using Eligius 8)
1839 2011-09-26 21:14:58 <luke-jr> Nebuluz: monster patches aren't merged
1840 2011-09-26 21:14:59 <Diablo-D3> go troll somewhere else luke
1841 2011-09-26 21:15:16 <Nebuluz> lol
1842 2011-09-26 21:15:19 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I can't help it if you can't code
1843 2011-09-26 21:15:55 <Diablo-D3> thankfully, I can code.
1844 2011-09-26 21:18:46 Joric has joined
1845 2011-09-26 21:20:55 <Nebuluz> luke-jr: so whats that monster patch about? .)
1846 2011-09-26 21:22:42 storrgie has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1847 2011-09-26 21:23:09 <jgarzik> Nebuluz: some bits of joel's patch need to be applied to upstream, be it 0.3.24 or 0.4.0
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1850 2011-09-26 21:24:57 <Nebuluz> to bad I'm a rusty programmer, so i can't just use the patch4.diff with 0.4.0 i guess then?
1851 2011-09-26 21:27:39 rdponticelli has joined
1852 2011-09-26 21:32:07 <sipa> casascius: i added a function CWallet::MarkDirty() to invalidate all cached totals, and call that from the import/remove functions
1853 2011-09-26 21:32:24 <sipa> casascius: if the problem still remains now, i'm lost :)
1854 2011-09-26 21:32:24 <casascius> sweet
1855 2011-09-26 21:32:27 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1856 2011-09-26 21:33:03 <sipa> (but it's quite normal that in the case you described it wasn't invalidated)
1857 2011-09-26 21:33:20 <sipa> so i have good hope that the problem is fixed now
1858 2011-09-26 21:33:48 <luke-jr> Nebuluz: JoelKatz needs to learn how to cooperate on software development ;)
1859 2011-09-26 21:34:41 <luke-jr> although he gets points for at least releasing stuff
1860 2011-09-26 21:34:43 <luke-jr> unlike most pools
1861 2011-09-26 21:36:43 <casascius> how do you git a certain branch in linux, command line?
1862 2011-09-26 21:36:58 <luke-jr> git checkout branch
1863 2011-09-26 21:37:17 <casascius> after i have already cloned it with git clone?
1864 2011-09-26 21:37:47 <sipa> as luke-jr says
1865 2011-09-26 21:38:27 * helo wonders what "git a branch" means
1866 2011-09-26 21:38:41 <helo> tell me, how exactly does one git a branch? ;)
1867 2011-09-26 21:38:43 <luke-jr> helo: yes, if he was more specific, he might get more help :P
1868 2011-09-26 21:39:33 <casascius> Well...I was going to test to see if I can reproduce a bug that may have been fixed with CWallet::MarkDirty()... just trying to get a copy of the code so I can do that.
1869 2011-09-26 21:39:38 <denisx> luke-jr: joel has no pool maybe?
1870 2011-09-26 21:39:50 iddo has joined
1871 2011-09-26 21:39:54 <luke-jr> denisx: then it's extra extra points? :P
1872 2011-09-26 21:39:59 <sipa> casascius: you cloned my repository?
1873 2011-09-26 21:40:24 <sipa> casascius: in that case: git fetch origin; git checkout showwallet; git reset --hard origin/showwallet
1874 2011-09-26 21:40:26 <casascius> only to a folder on my local drive, but would gladly do it a better way
1875 2011-09-26 21:40:39 <sipa> "only" to a folder; how else?
1876 2011-09-26 21:40:44 <luke-jr> sipa: that won't work if it's fresh
1877 2011-09-26 21:40:49 <casascius> to another spot on github where everyone can see it
1878 2011-09-26 21:40:57 <casascius> i guess that would be a fork
1879 2011-09-26 21:41:01 <luke-jr> git checkout origin/showwallet -b my_showwallet
1880 2011-09-26 21:41:09 <luke-jr> casascius: no, that'd be a clone
1881 2011-09-26 21:41:16 <luke-jr> casascius: GitHub is just terminology-stupid
1882 2011-09-26 21:41:36 <sipa> luke-jr: checkout showwallet will automatically branch from origin/showwallet if it doesn't exist, i believe
1883 2011-09-26 21:41:46 <luke-jr> sipa: never seen that before
1884 2011-09-26 21:42:09 <sipa> and casascius: indeed, github doesn't do anything special, you can just push your showwallet to your repository on github after doing things with it
1885 2011-09-26 21:45:21 pickett has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1887 2011-09-26 21:48:24 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts
1888 2011-09-26 21:49:21 <erle-> old shit
1889 2011-09-26 21:49:29 <erle-> notepad confuses it to be chinese
1890 2011-09-26 21:59:39 <casascius> that was windows xp and earlier
1891 2011-09-26 21:59:53 <casascius> windows 3.11 and earlier had a bug in its calculator, if you did 13.11 - 0.01 it would give 13.11 as an answer
1892 2011-09-26 22:01:34 <casascius> and on current windows versions, if you do sqrt(4) - 2, it gives not 0, but -8.16484659e-39
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1895 2011-09-26 22:04:12 <casascius> If I was going to add pbkdf2.cpp to the project somewhere, where would be the most recommended place for it?  and how about for its header? (it only exposes one function)
1896 2011-09-26 22:04:18 pumpkin has joined
1897 2011-09-26 22:05:02 <sipa> the source tree is not very organised, i'd say just in src/
1898 2011-09-26 22:05:30 <sipa> you implemented it yourself?
1899 2011-09-26 22:05:32 <casascius> and also is there a recommended implementation (I just clipped something somebody had pastebinned) with respect to copyright
1900 2011-09-26 22:05:33 <Joric> did you guys merge showwallet branch into 0.4.0 already?
1901 2011-09-26 22:06:01 <sipa> Joric: not yet, i'm making a few more changes, and it needs testing
1902 2011-09-26 22:06:10 <sipa> but it'll probably be merged very soon now
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1906 2011-09-26 22:15:18 <TuxBlackEdo> I under the impression that 0.4 wasn't going to use wxwidgets
1907 2011-09-26 22:16:07 <nanotube> TuxBlackEdo: no, the ui change is going to be in the next version
1908 2011-09-26 22:17:41 <AlexWaters> ;;seen thebluematt
1909 2011-09-26 22:17:42 <gribble> I have not seen thebluematt.
1910 2011-09-26 22:17:51 <nanotube> ;;seen bluematt
1911 2011-09-26 22:17:51 <gribble> bluematt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 34 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <BlueMatt> have you read the release notes?
1912 2011-09-26 22:17:57 <nanotube> AlexWaters: ^ no the
1913 2011-09-26 22:17:57 <AlexWaters> ty =)
1914 2011-09-26 22:18:12 <nanotube> :) i see you have acquired some capitalization in your nick ;)
1915 2011-09-26 22:18:19 <sipa> casascius: openssl has an implementation of pbkdf2-sha1
1916 2011-09-26 22:18:31 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1917 2011-09-26 22:18:41 <sipa> sorry, pbkdf2(hmac-sha1)
1918 2011-09-26 22:18:43 <AlexWaters> haha oh yes
1919 2011-09-26 22:18:54 <AlexWaters> getting fancy
1920 2011-09-26 22:19:18 <casascius> that'll have to do, and i believe it's equivalent
1921 2011-09-26 22:19:22 <AlexWaters> i didn't even realize, haha
1922 2011-09-26 22:19:25 <nanotube> heh
1923 2011-09-26 22:19:27 <casascius> (the code i clipped also references hmac - sha1
1924 2011-09-26 22:19:28 <casascius> )
1925 2011-09-26 22:19:45 <sipa> casascius: the bitcoin community does have an intimate connection with hash functions
1926 2011-09-26 22:20:11 <sipa> and sha1 seems to be to be avoided :)
1927 2011-09-26 22:20:17 <sipa> is that english, "to be to be" ?
1928 2011-09-26 22:20:35 <gmaxwell> I thought openssl had a generic pbkdf2 that you could slip any hash function into you wanted?
1929 2011-09-26 22:20:59 <AlexWaters> sipa: not really, but I think I know what you meant
1930 2011-09-26 22:21:05 <sipa> let's see
1931 2011-09-26 22:21:16 <nanotube> sounds like perfectly cromulent english to me :)
1932 2011-09-26 22:21:21 <AlexWaters> sipa: sha1 should be avoided
1933 2011-09-26 22:21:25 <AlexWaters> lol! nice
1934 2011-09-26 22:21:31 <casascius> it did look like any hash function could be plugged in there
1935 2011-09-26 22:21:40 <sipa> let's see
1936 2011-09-26 22:21:52 <AlexWaters> nanotube: I agree, perfectly cromulent
1937 2011-09-26 22:21:55 <gmaxwell> What function is the wallet crypto strenghtening using?
1938 2011-09-26 22:21:55 <casascius> the code i used had pbkdf2, hmac, sha1 all split out into three modular parts
1939 2011-09-26 22:22:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: EVP_BytesToKey
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1943 2011-09-26 22:22:12 <sipa> which is similar, but less standard
1944 2011-09-26 22:22:21 <sipa> and probably obsolete...
1945 2011-09-26 22:22:40 <gmaxwell> yea.. not really keen on using something non-standard that will need to interop
1946 2011-09-26 22:22:48 <gmaxwell> then I think any function of that general structure will be fine.
1947 2011-09-26 22:23:27 <gmaxwell> s/then/although/  (no sleep in many hours.. oy)
1948 2011-09-26 22:23:45 <sipa> i can't find any occurrence of "pbkdf" in the openssl source
1949 2011-09-26 22:23:56 <sipa> (0.9.8k)
1950 2011-09-26 22:24:06 <gmaxwell> I must be thinking of bytestokey then.
1951 2011-09-26 22:24:15 <sipa> yes, that one is generic
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1953 2011-09-26 22:25:06 <gmaxwell> if we're going to import a pbkdf2, perhaps modify it to use the openssl crypto functions to minimize the size (and to switch it to SHA256)
1954 2011-09-26 22:25:29 <gmaxwell> (though ugh, I still feel bad depending on the hash function our community has made so fast! :) )
1955 2011-09-26 22:25:38 <sipa> i prefer sha512 then
1956 2011-09-26 22:26:16 <casascius> without the hash function, it is a very small amount of code, fits on my screen
1957 2011-09-26 22:26:20 <gmaxwell> amusingly sha512 is faster on 64 bit cpus too.. (which is probably good, because it will be slower on GPUs and in silicon)
1958 2011-09-26 22:26:33 <gmaxwell> casascius: yes, it's a simple function.
1959 2011-09-26 22:26:59 <casascius> looks like nothing more than a loop that keeps regurgitating the output of the hmac function back into itself along with the original keys
1960 2011-09-26 22:27:52 t3a has joined
1961 2011-09-26 22:28:15 <sipa> casascius: the hmac implementation is probably larger than the pbkdf2 one :)
1962 2011-09-26 22:28:38 <casascius> a little bit
1963 2011-09-26 22:28:49 <gmaxwell> Is there no HMAC-SHA-512 in openssl?
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1965 2011-09-26 22:30:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think so, yes
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1968 2011-09-26 22:31:30 <luke-jr> why not try switching to GnuTLS anyway?
1969 2011-09-26 22:32:27 <gmaxwell> "It's hard for anything to be worse than openssl"
1970 2011-09-26 22:32:44 <gmaxwell> I like gcrypt, though I've only ever used the basic crypto functions in it, not the ssl stuff.
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1972 2011-09-26 22:36:00 TD[gone] is now known as TD
1973 2011-09-26 22:36:04 <cjdelisle> gcrypt is nice (I've only used it's ECC stuff, not SSL).. Looking inside of it is D:  but that is unfortunately all too common.
1974 2011-09-26 22:39:27 <sipa> btw, did anyone ever try to figure out what kind of speedups would be possible by using a specialized secp256k1 implementation?
1975 2011-09-26 22:39:31 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: have you looked inside openssl?
1976 2011-09-26 22:39:37 <sipa> the koblitz curve allows for some optimizations
1977 2011-09-26 22:39:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: I spent some time, found some papers. I suppose I should put them where they can be gotten to.
1978 2011-09-26 22:40:22 <cjdelisle> no and I don't dare
1979 2011-09-26 22:40:34 <gmaxwell> of particular interest the latest intel cpus have PCLMULQDQ which looks very promising.
1980 2011-09-26 22:41:27 <gmaxwell> (and in fact, while intel mostly plugs it for speeding up LRW, the people who worked on it at intel originally wrote a paper about using it for greatly speed up ecc on binary fields)
1981 2011-09-26 22:41:52 <gmaxwell> (IIRC they were reporting something like 10x faster than openssl or something on that order of magnitude)
1982 2011-09-26 22:42:17 <sipa> ECC on itself is really quite simple to implement
1983 2011-09-26 22:42:53 <sipa> if it's really 10x speedup, it may be worth it to use a special implementation
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1985 2011-09-26 22:45:15 <gmaxwell> They were doing something clever in the reduction that I didn't quite follow or I would have implemented it.
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1989 2011-09-26 22:50:29 <gmaxwell> Here is a paper I didn't see previously: http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/techreports/2011/cacr2011-07.pdf
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1991 2011-09-26 22:52:19 <gmaxwell> pretty nice timings for 233K multiplies there
1992 2011-09-26 22:53:21 <copumpkin> anyone around here played with pairing-based crypto?
1993 2011-09-26 22:55:32 BlueMatt has joined
1994 2011-09-26 22:56:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: they talk about F(2^n) fields
1995 2011-09-26 22:57:02 <sipa> secp256k1 is an F(p) field
1996 2011-09-26 22:58:27 <gmaxwell> I've made this mistake before, somewhere burned into my mind koblitz = binary characteristic and apparently its burned in rom.
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2000 2011-09-26 22:59:20 <sipa> that paper seems to assume that all koblitz curves are 2^n
2001 2011-09-26 23:01:13 <casascius> i see a recent transaction with maybe 60 outputs to 60 different addresses, most all for amounts under 30 satoshis.  Wonder what for.
2002 2011-09-26 23:01:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: gmaxwell anyone care to fill me in?
2003 2011-09-26 23:01:37 <casascius> All of the addresses start with "13F" so it's like someone has generated 100,000 addresses and this is one small slice of them
2004 2011-09-26 23:01:39 <sipa> casascius: firstbits, i suppose
2005 2011-09-26 23:01:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't think it's unique to that paper, it's somthing deeply embedded in my brain too.
2006 2011-09-26 23:02:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: we're talking about specialized ECC implementations for the secp256k1 curve
2007 2011-09-26 23:02:27 <gmaxwell> In any case, they do have some references on prime fields.
2008 2011-09-26 23:02:48 <sipa> i believe reading Hal investigated it, but i can't find it on the forum
2009 2011-09-26 23:02:51 <BlueMatt> mmm
2010 2011-09-26 23:03:20 <sipa> copumpkin: no idea what that is
2011 2011-09-26 23:03:46 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing
2012 2011-09-26 23:04:09 <copumpkin> not sure much is happening with it these days
2013 2011-09-26 23:04:16 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: there is another article on that which is more useful I think.
2014 2011-09-26 23:04:28 <gmaxwell> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pairing-based_cryptography
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2016 2011-09-26 23:05:40 <copumpkin> ah yeah
2017 2011-09-26 23:07:13 <copumpkin> I used a neat group signature scheme based on that a few years ago
2018 2011-09-26 23:07:36 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2019 2011-09-26 23:07:52 <copumpkin> anyway, bbl
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