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2 2011-09-29 00:00:21 <crazy_imp> is there a ratelimit to request blocks?
3 2011-09-29 00:02:04 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
4 2011-09-29 00:04:00 <gmaxwell> crazy_imp: not really. The performance is almost always limited by the disk on your local machine in any case.
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7 2011-09-29 00:04:44 <Joric> why it takes several hours to download 500 megs then
8 2011-09-29 00:05:05 <gmaxwell> Joric: because it's busily validating it and thrashing your disk in the process.
9 2011-09-29 00:05:40 <crazy_imp> i get about 10 blocks per second if i request them from bitcoind - seems quite slow to me...
10 2011-09-29 00:05:41 <Namegduf> Hmm.
11 2011-09-29 00:05:41 <Joric> not because it's very badly written?
12 2011-09-29 00:05:59 <Namegduf> That suggests that it could be a lot faster on machines with sufficient RAM to keep 500MB in RAM temporarily
13 2011-09-29 00:06:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rac0d303075e2 cgminer/main.c: Don't make donation work interfere with block change detection allowing donation to work regardless of the block chain we're mining on.
14 2011-09-29 00:06:03 <Namegduf> Which is most desktop machines.
15 2011-09-29 00:06:14 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: bdb does a lot of sync writes.
16 2011-09-29 00:06:25 <gmaxwell> It's a lot faster running in tmpfs on or on a ssd.
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18 2011-09-29 00:06:34 <casascius> bitcoind performs really well on a ramdisk
19 2011-09-29 00:06:41 <Joric> did you consider moving to sqlite for example
20 2011-09-29 00:06:51 <Namegduf> Store wallet.dat on a tmpfs
21 2011-09-29 00:06:55 <Namegduf> Get better performance
22 2011-09-29 00:07:16 * gmaxwell slaips Namegduf's forehead.
23 2011-09-29 00:07:34 <Namegduf> (Read that like it was on an Advice Dog picture)
24 2011-09-29 00:08:05 <shockdiode> store wallet.dat on a tmpfs
25 2011-09-29 00:08:07 <shockdiode> power outage
26 2011-09-29 00:08:08 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin also serializes a fair amount between the validating and the pulling, so later in the chain your network will spend a lot of time idle while it validates the last slug of blocks it got.
27 2011-09-29 00:08:09 <shockdiode> ??
28 2011-09-29 00:08:11 <shockdiode> profit
29 2011-09-29 00:08:24 <Namegduf> I'm not sure it'd be worth trying to accelerate the initial connect *too* much.
30 2011-09-29 00:08:31 <Namegduf> I mean, it does only happen once.
31 2011-09-29 00:08:44 <Namegduf> It's at least possibly worth thinking about.
32 2011-09-29 00:08:48 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: you can also just copy the blockchain from another system.
33 2011-09-29 00:09:06 <Namegduf> gmaxwell: One distinct option is that bitcoind could, when it has no chain or is far behind
34 2011-09-29 00:09:14 <Namegduf> Just do that- request and download and stow
35 2011-09-29 00:09:16 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: sure, gavin just committed some changes that make it a bit faster.
36 2011-09-29 00:09:22 <Namegduf> Then pull it all into RAM and process at once.
37 2011-09-29 00:09:28 <Namegduf> Validate at once, anyway.
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39 2011-09-29 00:09:37 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: there are lots of things that _could_ be done. Got patches? :)
40 2011-09-29 00:09:55 <Namegduf> No, just saying it's possible. Not even that it's worth doing- initial connect is, after all, a one off.
41 2011-09-29 00:10:03 <gmaxwell> The one block at a time updates are going to suck for bulk downloads regardless of the backing database.
42 2011-09-29 00:10:14 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: it results in bad initial user expirences, which matters a lot however.
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44 2011-09-29 00:10:23 <Namegduf> That's true.
45 2011-09-29 00:10:33 <Namegduf> I think the UPnP stuff did better work there.
46 2011-09-29 00:10:50 <gmaxwell> I haven't seen a lot of evidence that UPnP helped at all.
47 2011-09-29 00:11:02 <Namegduf> It is on by default, right?
48 2011-09-29 00:11:05 <gmaxwell> It doesn't look like we've had the increase in listening nodes that we needed.
49 2011-09-29 00:11:08 <gmaxwell> Yes, it is now.
50 2011-09-29 00:11:14 <gmaxwell> Though a lot of people haven't upgraded.
51 2011-09-29 00:11:20 <Namegduf> That might explain it.
52 2011-09-29 00:12:03 <gmaxwell> hopefully with .4 out now more people will upgrade.
53 2011-09-29 00:12:45 <gmaxwell> http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/versionsStart.png
54 2011-09-29 00:12:48 * Namegduf doesn't actually run his daemon unless he is doing something with it. He should update the blockchain occasionally to reduce delays, though.
55 2011-09-29 00:13:43 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: it would be nice for the network if you set up a listening daemon that ran all the time...
56 2011-09-29 00:13:52 <Namegduf> I ought to do it, turn off UPnP
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58 2011-09-29 00:14:00 <Namegduf> And have time-based port forwarding setup or something
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60 2011-09-29 00:14:13 <Namegduf> "or something", I think
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62 2011-09-29 00:14:27 <gmaxwell> well once its up it doesn't use much bandwidth.
63 2011-09-29 00:14:48 <gmaxwell> you can cut your max connections down some to reduce it further, but you shouldn't really need to most likely.
64 2011-09-29 00:14:50 <Joric> is there any limitation on simultaneous connections? like 64 connections or something?
65 2011-09-29 00:15:08 <gmaxwell> By default listening nodes will accept 125 connections.
66 2011-09-29 00:15:56 <Namegduf> Well, my ISP operates a no-congestion policy, see, but they do this by being metered and having peak time traffic count 25x as much as off-peak.
67 2011-09-29 00:16:07 <Namegduf> I really need it not using anything between 9 and 6.
68 2011-09-29 00:16:11 <gmaxwell> ah.
69 2011-09-29 00:16:19 <gmaxwell> well, you could certantly do that.
70 2011-09-29 00:16:35 <Namegduf> I suspect I'd need to kill it; new connections are easy to stop, but existing ones are harder to break.
71 2011-09-29 00:16:44 <Namegduf> I guess I could make cron do it.
72 2011-09-29 00:17:03 <Joric> good, i just stumbled upon bitcoinj has private static final int DEFAULT_CONNECTIONS = 4;
73 2011-09-29 00:17:42 <gmaxwell> Joric: bitcoinj is a lite node, it so it can't forward. It's important that it not overburden the network.
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75 2011-09-29 00:18:58 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: or just firewall it off between 9-6 except from a couple of hand selected nodes. That way when it turns back on it's not behind.
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81 2011-09-29 00:25:59 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * rffc88ef03020 cgminer/ (README main.c): Enable 100% donation by default.
82 2011-09-29 00:28:23 <diki> [02:43:38] <luke-jr> diki: I guess you're another example of how schools don't teach crap<-they teach, i(a person with ADD) just didnt pay attention
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85 2011-09-29 00:28:48 <diki> totaluservalidshares / stale shares does not yield the result
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90 2011-09-29 00:40:47 <Joric> i see there's not so many 0.4 nodes yet ) http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8236/bitcointool201109290629.png
91 2011-09-29 00:42:31 <b4epoche_> Hmm⦠interesting. Amazon Silk, the (new) man in the middle?
92 2011-09-29 00:42:41 <Joric> 32460 :-/
93 2011-09-29 00:42:50 Moonies has joined
94 2011-09-29 00:44:22 <Joric> looks like amazon silk is just a modified opera browser
95 2011-09-29 00:44:47 <b4epoche_> yea, seems like same basic idea
96 2011-09-29 00:44:59 <b4epoche_> but I guess Amazon has better resources to make it 'work'
97 2011-09-29 00:45:10 <Joric> oh no sorry it's not opera
98 2011-09-29 00:45:45 <b4epoche_> I thought it was Opera (Mobile?) that was doing something like that
99 2011-09-29 00:45:54 <Joric> just the common principle of cloud rendering opera used it for very slow devices
100 2011-09-29 00:46:02 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r9087345f8482 cgminer/ (README main.c): Expire shares as stale with a separate timeout from the scantime, defaulting to 120 seconds.
101 2011-09-29 00:46:32 <Joric> opera mini (j2me, for s40 nokias) does that
102 2011-09-29 00:47:31 <Joric> most of the layout engine is server-side
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104 2011-09-29 00:50:54 <Joric> i'm gonna buy amazon kindle-3 3g soon
105 2011-09-29 00:52:00 <Joric> hope price on ebay would go down a bit after they've released the tablet
106 2011-09-29 00:53:28 <Joric> the whole idea of having free internet everywhere is awesome
107 2011-09-29 00:56:37 <Joric> especially for the internet addicts )
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109 2011-09-29 00:56:44 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r1d366d78f04d / (13 files in 4 dirs): ConnectBlock()
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127 2011-09-29 01:47:09 <elkingrey> lfm, shockdiode: So, I don't know if I should be happen or not. I created a new user and ran the bitcoind command and I didn't get any errors. Of course, I didn't get anything. It merely is sitting there. Is that what it is supposed to do?
128 2011-09-29 01:47:19 <elkingrey> happen=happy
129 2011-09-29 01:51:52 <luke-jr> yes
130 2011-09-29 01:52:05 <luke-jr> it's a daemon. for writing webapps.
131 2011-09-29 01:52:12 <luke-jr> not for end-user consumption
132 2011-09-29 01:52:19 <Diablo-D3> >daemon
133 2011-09-29 01:52:21 <Diablo-D3> >webapps
134 2011-09-29 01:52:25 <Diablo-D3> lawlz
135 2011-09-29 01:52:37 <luke-jr> (don't mind Diablo-D3, he's a troll)
136 2011-09-29 01:52:49 <Diablo-D3> says luke, the troll.
137 2011-09-29 01:53:16 <gjs278> I use bitcoind as my main client
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140 2011-09-29 01:54:52 <luke-jr> gjs278: doesn't mean it's suitable for that
141 2011-09-29 01:55:02 <Diablo-D3> says who
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143 2011-09-29 01:57:25 <imsaguy> lol
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155 2011-09-29 02:42:02 <elkingrey> Can anybody explain this? http://pastebin.com/VymMjL1F
156 2011-09-29 02:42:36 <casascius> elkingrey: do you have the bitcoin gui client running
157 2011-09-29 02:42:48 wolfspraul has joined
158 2011-09-29 02:43:05 <elkingrey> This is a server I am running on. Is that even possible?
159 2011-09-29 02:43:22 <casascius> does bitcoin or bitcoind show up if you type: ps x
160 2011-09-29 02:44:06 <elkingrey> http://pastebin.com/tnpWhHLR
161 2011-09-29 02:44:32 <elkingrey> I don't know what to make of that.
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163 2011-09-29 02:45:01 <casascius> maybe need a bitcoin.conf
164 2011-09-29 02:45:27 <elkingrey> Already got it. I was able to initiate bitcoind once, and it said server starting. But since then I haven't got anything else
165 2011-09-29 02:46:08 <casascius> if you do ps x does the 42:01 keep increasing like a clock?
166 2011-09-29 02:46:53 <luke-jr> elkingrey: tail -f ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
167 2011-09-29 02:47:05 <elkingrey> yes it does
168 2011-09-29 02:47:07 <elkingrey> ok
169 2011-09-29 02:47:21 <casascius> what is it up to now
170 2011-09-29 02:47:46 <elkingrey> It is increasing like a clock, but now I am tailing it
171 2011-09-29 02:47:51 <elkingrey> It seems to be processing blocks
172 2011-09-29 02:49:31 <casascius> normally mine needs a minute or two to think before it starts responding to rpc commands, but after that, it should respond, even if the block chain isn't downloaded
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182 2011-09-29 02:59:12 <luke-jr> ;;bc,diff
183 2011-09-29 02:59:44 <gribble> 1689334.4045971
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190 2011-09-29 03:25:56 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r7f401e7a257c /Makefile: Improved Makefile which builds libbitcoin.so
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210 2011-09-29 04:06:00 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r1f0057e93baf / (16 files in 6 dirs): One line implementation of CBigNumber::set_uint64 :)
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299 2011-09-29 05:57:07 <AlexWaters> anyone have a minute to explain sign and verify messages to me? i'm trying to figure out the output I get when i sign a message
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302 2011-09-29 06:02:59 <AlexWaters> i'm able to sign and verify messages, but is there any way for a user to look up the message of an address?
303 2011-09-29 06:03:29 <ThomasV> AlexWaters: what are you using?
304 2011-09-29 06:04:02 <AlexWaters> i'm testing Sipa's #524 which is a revision of khalahan's #183
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306 2011-09-29 06:04:18 <ThomasV> oh I see
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309 2011-09-29 06:07:42 <ThomasV> AlexWaters: I wrote a python script that does the same, because I was not able to revise #183 myself
310 2011-09-29 06:08:04 <ThomasV> nice to see it's going to be into bitcoind
311 2011-09-29 06:10:02 <ThomasV> it would be nice to put a link on the #183 page
312 2011-09-29 06:12:40 <AlexWaters> will do
313 2011-09-29 06:14:50 <osmosis> Ive had my bitcoin server running for over a month, but it hasnt passed 100 connections. Should it be getting more?
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320 2011-09-29 06:28:47 <AlexWaters> osmosis: I don't think so, I wouldn't be concerned
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341 2011-09-29 07:05:27 <chris989> test
342 2011-09-29 07:06:12 <chris989> Is anyone willing to briefly discuss importprivkey with me from a users perspective?
343 2011-09-29 07:08:16 <chris989> Seems quiet. Wondering if my client is working. Anyone care to just say hello so I know I am not talking into space...
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347 2011-09-29 07:08:45 <doublec> you are not talking into space
348 2011-09-29 07:09:11 <theymos> It's always quiet at this time.
349 2011-09-29 07:09:57 <chris989> OK. Thanks for the feedback
350 2011-09-29 07:10:06 <theymos> What's your question about importprivkey?
351 2011-09-29 07:10:16 <diki> theymos:its slow
352 2011-09-29 07:10:30 <diki> i had to import around half a million keys
353 2011-09-29 07:10:40 <diki> i gave up when i found out it would take weeks
354 2011-09-29 07:10:48 <chris989> I am wondering if there is a way for me as a user to import a private key into the windows client?
355 2011-09-29 07:10:49 <theymos> Does it rescan after each key?
356 2011-09-29 07:11:00 <diki> chris989:there is
357 2011-09-29 07:11:07 <diki> pywallet
358 2011-09-29 07:11:28 <chris989> Is pywallet an .exe I run in the windows OS?
359 2011-09-29 07:11:33 <diki> its python
360 2011-09-29 07:11:38 <diki> so you'd need the python interpreter
361 2011-09-29 07:11:55 <diki> and whatever it needs to run pywallet
362 2011-09-29 07:11:56 <chris989> But I can get a Win python interpreter I believe
363 2011-09-29 07:11:57 <theymos> If importprivkey is included in the official releases as an RPC command, then you can use it on Windows. I don't know if it is, though.
364 2011-09-29 07:12:11 <diki> theymos:afaik, its not
365 2011-09-29 07:12:15 <diki> thought it should be
366 2011-09-29 07:12:17 <chris989> I am not really a developer. More of a power user
367 2011-09-29 07:12:36 <chris989> so I could probably muddle through setting up python...
368 2011-09-29 07:12:44 <chris989> but not certain
369 2011-09-29 07:13:25 <diki> python is all next-next-next
370 2011-09-29 07:13:38 <diki> the harder thing is installing dependencies
371 2011-09-29 07:14:05 <chris989> OK on the next - next - next. I can do that...
372 2011-09-29 07:14:32 <midnightmagic> namecoin
373 2011-09-29 07:14:37 <diki> because some dependencies need easy_install or whatever, other are egg files
374 2011-09-29 07:14:42 <diki> which are actually zip files
375 2011-09-29 07:14:57 <diki> midnightmagic:what about it
376 2011-09-29 07:15:27 <chris989> Are you going to be around for a bit? maybe I should install python and see how far I get. I know you are not my tech support, but I appreciate the guidance so far. Thanks.
377 2011-09-29 07:15:37 <diki> chris989:probably not
378 2011-09-29 07:15:43 ike-exe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
379 2011-09-29 07:15:59 <chris989> OK. Well, I have a direction at least. Thanks.
380 2011-09-29 07:16:05 <theymos> Make sure you back up your wallet before messing with it, just in case.
381 2011-09-29 07:16:06 <midnightmagic> diki: woops, I was trying to search for mentions of it. pay me no heed..
382 2011-09-29 07:17:43 <chris989> OK, and I do that by backing up the wallet.cpp and wallet.h, correct? I can also find instructions on line I am sure.
383 2011-09-29 07:17:57 <diki> lol
384 2011-09-29 07:18:03 <diki> no you need to backup wallet.dat
385 2011-09-29 07:18:12 <diki> which is located in %appdata%/Bitcoin
386 2011-09-29 07:18:26 <chris989> got it. I can do that. Thx
387 2011-09-29 07:18:48 <doublec> chris989: why do you need to import a private key?
388 2011-09-29 07:19:31 <diki> doublec:why are you asking?
389 2011-09-29 07:19:35 <diki> everybody has a reason
390 2011-09-29 07:19:45 <chris989> doublec, I like the idea of transfering my balance to a physical paper public address (with a corresponding private address).
391 2011-09-29 07:20:18 <chris989> Then I can keep my BTC safe in a physical location, and "reload" it into a new wallet when I decide to create one
392 2011-09-29 07:20:36 <doublec> diki: because ordinary users don't normally need to so I was curious what the use case was
393 2011-09-29 07:20:37 <diki> chris989:generate a random address or an address with your keyword with vanitygej
394 2011-09-29 07:20:42 <diki> *vanitygen
395 2011-09-29 07:20:49 <diki> and import the private key
396 2011-09-29 07:21:44 <chris989> vanitygen? I take it I can convert a private key to a phrase I create?
397 2011-09-29 07:22:59 <diki> vanitygen is a bitcoin address generator
398 2011-09-29 07:23:06 <diki> which also includes a privatekey
399 2011-09-29 07:23:24 <diki> its idea is to make custom addresses, but the longer the word, the harder it is
400 2011-09-29 07:23:36 <chris989> got it. I will check that out too.
401 2011-09-29 07:24:41 <chris989> @doublec: I like the idea of a paper address, because computers crash, and if you want to save your balance to paper, that seems to me a pretty safe place to save a sizable BTC balance for a longer period of time...
402 2011-09-29 07:25:23 MrTiggr is now known as MrTiggrAFK
403 2011-09-29 07:25:45 <diki> chris989:a bitcoin privatekey has upper case and lower case characters
404 2011-09-29 07:25:51 <diki> it'd suck if you mistake just one
405 2011-09-29 07:26:02 <chris989> ...I just don't trust having a large balance on my PC/Linux box while folks more skilled than I figure out ways to hack in a snatch my balance
406 2011-09-29 07:26:51 <chris989> OK, gotcha on the potential of screwing up the privkey string
407 2011-09-29 07:27:27 <chris989> but I still like the idea of saving to paper. Do you see that as a valuable part of the overall bitcoin concept?
408 2011-09-29 07:27:50 <diki> i guess
409 2011-09-29 07:28:00 <doublec> I just have a seperate wallet I send to and have that encrypted and offline
410 2011-09-29 07:28:06 <diki> is it not going to be hard to type it out by hand?
411 2011-09-29 07:28:23 <diki> i'd honestly go crazy to type a privkey to some textbox
412 2011-09-29 07:29:07 <chris989> yes, I agree with the complexity of typing the privkey string
413 2011-09-29 07:29:39 BTCTrader_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
414 2011-09-29 07:29:56 <doublec> the thought of me stuffing up importing/exporting private keys using random python programs into and out of wallets containing my entire fortune worries me more than hackeres
415 2011-09-29 07:30:52 <chris989> Interesting. I am thinking about things here.
416 2011-09-29 07:31:25 <diki> doublec:could you please not decourage the user with that crap?
417 2011-09-29 07:32:16 <diki> if pywallet was just a random python program, obviously people would've said something about the code
418 2011-09-29 07:32:43 <chris989> I don't know. There is something comforting to me about being able to move value on and off line. The value of course exists in the block chain, but I can bury that key in my metaphorical mason jar.
419 2011-09-29 07:33:20 <doublec> chris989: sure, nothing wrong with that. just be aware of risks.
420 2011-09-29 07:33:24 <chris989> ...mail it to my grandma. put it in my will, etc...
421 2011-09-29 07:33:40 <doublec> chris989: there have been people in the past who accidentally deleted their wallet and backups while manually trying to improve their safety
422 2011-09-29 07:33:55 erus` has joined
423 2011-09-29 07:34:00 <chris989> I don't doubt it!
424 2011-09-29 07:34:49 <chris989> I once took my PC into a tech consultant to have him install a RAID array. He overwrote my original HD. I know the misery.
425 2011-09-29 07:35:45 <chris989> I really believe moving your BTC onto paper, and then bank to your electronic wallet would be a pretty important innovation for bitcoin.
426 2011-09-29 07:36:06 <chris989> Just my thought. Maybe I am off base.
427 2011-09-29 07:36:25 <doublec> yes, a "print private key as barcode" option in the client would be nice
428 2011-09-29 07:36:26 <chris989> "back", not "bank". See above...
429 2011-09-29 07:36:35 <doublec> with a 'scan from barcode" import
430 2011-09-29 07:36:44 <cjdelisle> yea
431 2011-09-29 07:36:46 <chris989> absolutely
432 2011-09-29 07:37:09 <cjdelisle> in the mean time something you could do is: cat wallet.dat | openssl end -e -base64 > wallet.txt
433 2011-09-29 07:37:17 <cjdelisle> and then print wallet.txt
434 2011-09-29 07:37:25 <cjdelisle> then: shred wallet.txt
435 2011-09-29 07:37:51 <chris989> OK. those are linux commands, correct?
436 2011-09-29 07:38:01 <cjdelisle> sorry cat wallet.dat | openssl enc -e -base64 > wallet.txt
437 2011-09-29 07:38:14 <cjdelisle> that's bash but it can be done in winx
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439 2011-09-29 07:38:32 <chris989> got it. I can refresh my skills and do some of that...
440 2011-09-29 07:38:45 <theymos> The output from that will be thousands of characters. I'd hate to type that...
441 2011-09-29 07:38:59 <chris989> @cjdelisle: how do I get it back into a new client?
442 2011-09-29 07:39:13 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
443 2011-09-29 07:39:13 <cjdelisle> scan and character recognition?
444 2011-09-29 07:39:23 <chris989> or maybe "wallet" is a better term
445 2011-09-29 07:39:31 <cjdelisle> oh
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448 2011-09-29 07:39:57 <cjdelisle> cat wallet.txt | openssl enc -d -base64 > wallet.dat.backup
449 2011-09-29 07:40:18 <cjdelisle> after scanning in the paper to wallet.txt
450 2011-09-29 07:41:14 <chris989> Is there any momentum to develop what I am trying to do for less sophisticated users? Getting private keys into wallets easily?
451 2011-09-29 07:41:30 <cjdelisle> not really
452 2011-09-29 07:41:45 <theymos> Didn't Gavin say he didn't like the idea?
453 2011-09-29 07:41:50 <cjdelisle> largely because there's a website that offers to make your private key for you
454 2011-09-29 07:42:12 <chris989> yes, but you have to get that private key into a wallet somehow
455 2011-09-29 07:42:25 <cjdelisle> right
456 2011-09-29 07:42:31 <cjdelisle> which makes the website not usefull
457 2011-09-29 07:42:45 <cjdelisle> so noone is going to lose their shirt because the website went bad
458 2011-09-29 07:43:55 <chris989> I was a financial planner for a long time. Old people put there money in safety deposit boxes, make plans on paper with wills and trusts. They don't leave thumb drives to their kids. This is the perspective I am coming from.
459 2011-09-29 07:43:56 <wumpus> the problem with simply adding private keys into your wallet is that you can't be sure that they are fully trusted (ie, someone else might have them as well).. which means that you'd have to handle them specially, don't send change to them etfc...
460 2011-09-29 07:44:55 <wumpus> it's better to simpy generate a new address in your wallet and dsend the coins there "from the received private key", instead of adding it to the wallet db
461 2011-09-29 07:45:06 <cjdelisle> chris989: I totally understand and I have been one of the loudest voices in favor of a more confortable UI but the "protect users from their mistakes" lobby seems to be winning so far.
462 2011-09-29 07:45:33 <AlexWaters> cjdelisle: I am in that lobby
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466 2011-09-29 07:47:10 <wumpus> yes, printing the private keys in your wallet on paper (for example in Qr-code format) would certainly have a lot of use-cases, at least it's unhackable (protecting something physically is much more proven)
467 2011-09-29 07:47:38 <cjdelisle> I would favor designing a means of exporting a wallet as JSON which can be read by a human to see the valie and by a machine to build a new wallet...
468 2011-09-29 07:48:56 <wumpus> you want to print json? that's really, really low density.. and also harder to OCR reliably
469 2011-09-29 07:49:22 <cjdelisle> I want to be able to look at it and know what it says
470 2011-09-29 07:49:41 <cjdelisle> some random qrcode might aswell be a steriogram
471 2011-09-29 07:49:44 <wumpus> if you want t aprintout format better think it through very well, ie add error correction and such
472 2011-09-29 07:50:03 <AlexWaters> lol
473 2011-09-29 07:50:15 <cjdelisle> what does a stock or bond certificate look like? That's what I want
474 2011-09-29 07:50:20 <wumpus> which qr codes have.. (in some fashion, maybe not enough for long term storage)
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476 2011-09-29 07:50:35 <AlexWaters> they have crypto images, i forget what they're called - but IMO better for this use case
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478 2011-09-29 07:50:53 <wumpus> cjdelisle: so add some human readable headers and footers to recognize what it is
479 2011-09-29 07:50:59 MimeNarrator has quit (Client Quit)
480 2011-09-29 07:51:02 <AlexWaters> where they're memorable, but don't convey any human readable info
481 2011-09-29 07:51:07 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
482 2011-09-29 07:51:08 <chris989> the stock or bond cert idea is great. Also, people not comfortable with a digital currency will associate it with something of value
483 2011-09-29 07:51:45 <wumpus> the human and machine readable parts don't have to be the same. .that'd even add some redundancy
484 2011-09-29 07:52:01 <wumpus> ie, have the key in both hex and qr code...
485 2011-09-29 07:52:08 <chris989> Now you have to have a easy way to get it in and out of "the matrix"
486 2011-09-29 07:52:09 <cjdelisle> /nod
487 2011-09-29 07:52:53 <wumpus> well the biggest problem is that you'd ideally need an offline device to create the private keys, to make sure they never touch the net
488 2011-09-29 07:53:17 <wumpus> it just generates the key and prints it, and stores the public key somewhere to coins can be put on it
489 2011-09-29 07:53:21 MimeNarrator has joined
490 2011-09-29 07:53:32 <cjdelisle> the biggest problem is that you just said 'ideally'
491 2011-09-29 07:53:36 <chris989> wampus: yes, I totally agree
492 2011-09-29 07:53:50 <AlexWaters> isn't that what bitbills does?
493 2011-09-29 07:53:54 <wumpus> anything that is even connected to the net for a few seconds is potentially compromised
494 2011-09-29 07:54:18 <wumpus> AlexWaters: yes, I suppose so
495 2011-09-29 07:54:41 <wumpus> but you need to trust them to not store the private keys, in that case, like RSA turned out to do :')
496 2011-09-29 07:54:54 <cjdelisle> except bitbills knows the private key
497 2011-09-29 07:55:05 <cjdelisle> they promise to forget but... yea...
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500 2011-09-29 07:55:58 <AlexWaters> surely someone could open source their tech, and hardware to make portable bitbill printers...
501 2011-09-29 07:56:26 <cjdelisle> like a computer running bitcoind without any internet connection?
502 2011-09-29 07:56:30 <wumpus> so it's not just 'a matter of ui'... the workflow would have to be thought through carefully , and no handwaving with regard to security
503 2011-09-29 07:56:53 <chris989> maybe bitbill kiosks, like an ATM?
504 2011-09-29 07:57:07 <AlexWaters> cjdelisle: that works
505 2011-09-29 07:57:14 <cjdelisle> that exists
506 2011-09-29 07:57:16 <cjdelisle> the ATM
507 2011-09-29 07:57:52 <cjdelisle> IMO it should interface with a bitcoind enabled haldheld device (like a cellphone) but that will probably be a future thing
508 2011-09-29 07:57:58 <chris989> yes, but it doesn't give you a tidy little number that you can deposit $1MM onto
509 2011-09-29 07:58:11 <wumpus> cjdelisle: you could use that, or even better, a simpler program that generates keys and does nothing else :)
510 2011-09-29 07:58:25 <cjdelisle> no
511 2011-09-29 07:58:47 <wumpus> if it's an embedded device you certainly don't want the entire bitcoin protocol cruft around
512 2011-09-29 07:59:16 <cjdelisle> best is bitcoind on a handheld which does all of the jobs, create keys, send payment, check balance
513 2011-09-29 07:59:32 <cjdelisle> identify received payments so you know who payd
514 2011-09-29 07:59:39 <wumpus> that already exists, the bitcoin android apps...
515 2011-09-29 07:59:51 <cjdelisle> there's your keygen
516 2011-09-29 07:59:56 <wumpus> but it needs needswork connectivity to check balance
517 2011-09-29 08:00:01 <wumpus> which is what you don't want
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519 2011-09-29 08:00:20 <cjdelisle> then disable the network on yours
520 2011-09-29 08:00:30 <wumpus> and it's not suited for longterm offline storage
521 2011-09-29 08:00:30 <cjdelisle> the rest of the world won't
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523 2011-09-29 08:00:40 <wumpus> you don't want to store your phone in a safe locker
524 2011-09-29 08:00:47 <chris989> I am going to go play with pywallet and vanitygen. I really appreciate the conversation. I hope you guys are here if/when I come back. Thank you very much!
525 2011-09-29 08:00:53 <wumpus> so it seems you want something else than me
526 2011-09-29 08:01:15 <cjdelisle> I want the all-in-1 wallet solution
527 2011-09-29 08:01:22 <wumpus> that already exists
528 2011-09-29 08:01:28 <cjdelisle> you want a random number generator with point multiplication
529 2011-09-29 08:01:36 <wumpus> yes.. which has a printer integrated
530 2011-09-29 08:01:37 <cjdelisle> which also already exists
531 2011-09-29 08:01:57 <cjdelisle> but you are the only one who would use that
532 2011-09-29 08:02:01 <wumpus> it must be able to commit to paper (produce certificates) otherwise it's useless
533 2011-09-29 08:02:43 <wumpus> not really... it's the only way if you want 'perfect' security
534 2011-09-29 08:02:59 <cjdelisle> That's like compiling your os yourself on a compiler which you personally reviewed the assembler code to
535 2011-09-29 08:03:14 <cjdelisle> noone does it
536 2011-09-29 08:03:21 <wumpus> huh
537 2011-09-29 08:03:51 <wumpus> no, it'd be more like securing voting machines (which is hard, yes :P)
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540 2011-09-29 08:05:34 <cjdelisle> wumpus: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack
541 2011-09-29 08:05:40 <wumpus> it'd be a serious product, I don't think a large enough market exists at this moment, but if bitcoin keeps growing there will be
542 2011-09-29 08:06:25 <wumpus> it has to be very careful at least to not store the private key long enough in memory for interception
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544 2011-09-29 08:08:17 <wumpus> but as soon as the key is on paper, in a safe, and it exists nowhere else you have perfect security (at least against hacks... not against old-fashioned bank robbers)
545 2011-09-29 08:08:54 <cjdelisle> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
546 2011-09-29 08:09:10 <wumpus> whatever...
547 2011-09-29 08:11:36 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
548 2011-09-29 08:11:41 <chris989> Yes, you have to have total security against electronic hacks. I am a moderate power user, but not a programmer. There will always be someone smarter than me, ahead of my skill level. Until I can put that on paper in my safety deposit box, there is a real limit as to how much I can entrust to my electronic wallet.
549 2011-09-29 08:11:54 <wumpus> even if not "perfect" in theoretical sense, at least it'd be more secure than the current situation with large amounts of bitcoins sitting on user's day-to-day pcs
550 2011-09-29 08:12:32 <wumpus> exactly chris989
551 2011-09-29 08:12:43 coblee_ has joined
552 2011-09-29 08:13:40 <wumpus> one zero-day exploit is enough to subvert most if not all of the digital security a person can put in place, if the recent high-profile hacks have shown anything... it's not like those organizations are clueless
553 2011-09-29 08:13:50 <cjdelisle> A handheld device which can send and receive btc and does not have any other software on it, IE: no other ports are listening than 8333 and it's not calling anyone, would be much better and the average person would be able to use it.
554 2011-09-29 08:14:05 <cjdelisle> esp. since they could take it to stores and buy things with it
555 2011-09-29 08:14:17 <AlexWaters> i wish people had more comments at the bottom of their code explaining it to non-native speakers =P I don't see that hardly ever...
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558 2011-09-29 08:15:04 <wumpus> I could add comment in dutch! (or broken german! :P)
559 2011-09-29 08:15:20 <cjdelisle> but this discussion has gone round and round and round, it always ends up at the same place, just noone is bothering to write the code
560 2011-09-29 08:15:32 <wumpus> my point is that this isn't simply about code
561 2011-09-29 08:16:01 <wumpus> it's about a workflow, code is only a very small (and relatively trivial) part of it
562 2011-09-29 08:16:19 <cjdelisle> or, build the androidish device to do it and make sure the attack surface is nothing other than bitcoind itself
563 2011-09-29 08:16:43 <wumpus> I wouldn't trust my life to a bitcoind connected to the open internet, personally...
564 2011-09-29 08:16:48 <wumpus> but yeah, that could be just me :-)
565 2011-09-29 08:17:43 <cjdelisle> You have no clue the level of security that exists in major financial insitutions and government. IE6 is universal just to give you the gist
566 2011-09-29 08:18:01 <wumpus> I know
567 2011-09-29 08:18:12 <cjdelisle> UI UI UI UI UI
568 2011-09-29 08:18:23 <cjdelisle> noone cares about perfect security
569 2011-09-29 08:18:46 <wumpus> if you're so convinced that you have a good idea, why don't you build it?
570 2011-09-29 08:18:55 * cjdelisle lazy
571 2011-09-29 08:19:00 <wumpus> it's not like you need validation from a few geeks in an irc channel
572 2011-09-29 08:19:04 <cjdelisle> + other irons in the fire
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574 2011-09-29 08:19:57 <wumpus> also, no one cares about perfect security in the case that transactions can be reversed
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576 2011-09-29 08:20:14 <chris989> Hey, can I sneak a python Q in here between the lines? I have Python and the bsddb installed. Do I just paste pywallet at the prompt, or do I need to educate my self on compiling the program. Just point me in the right direction...
577 2011-09-29 08:20:22 <wumpus> but suppose that you owned gold you'd certainly care about perfect security
578 2011-09-29 08:20:46 <wumpus> especially if it's large amounts...
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580 2011-09-29 08:21:16 <AlexWaters> chris989: I think you should be able to save the file as a .py and execute it from the command line. Is this what you mean?
581 2011-09-29 08:21:34 <wumpus> chris989: you don't need to compile python, you can simply run the script
582 2011-09-29 08:21:42 <cjdelisle> I happen to know that gold people don't touch computers in their business, everything is done over the phone or in person.
583 2011-09-29 08:21:45 <AlexWaters> i didn't have to compile when I copied some python the other day
584 2011-09-29 08:21:46 <chris989> yes, that is what I mean. OK, I will go work on it.
585 2011-09-29 08:22:09 <wumpus> cjdelisle: exactly... computers are not trustable in such cases
586 2011-09-29 08:22:35 <AlexWaters> cjdelisle: I vaguely remember gold finger owning a computer in the James Bond movie...
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588 2011-09-29 08:22:40 <wumpus> which is exactly our point with offline paper wallets
589 2011-09-29 08:23:03 <AlexWaters> cjdelisle: and a few giant lasers
590 2011-09-29 08:23:13 <wumpus> hehe
591 2011-09-29 08:23:18 <cjdelisle> yea, +1 for paper, your little random number generator with a printer idea will get about 3 adopters in the world though
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593 2011-09-29 08:23:44 <chris989> BTW, to the points above. People don't care about perfect security, but they are scared of what they don't understand. Your bitbill under your bed and a Colt .357 is not perfect, but at least you understand it. That is just a coment on human nature...
594 2011-09-29 08:23:55 <AlexWaters> there are also the bitcoin magnet guys. i forget the name of their product - but they do what I think you're talking about
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596 2011-09-29 08:24:04 <AlexWaters> and I think they sell the printer, not the end product
597 2011-09-29 08:24:17 <wumpus> cjdelisle: I don't need your validation on my ideas, if I were to develop it I'd do decent market research first and certainly not go by the opinion of people on irc :-)
598 2011-09-29 08:24:54 <cjdelisle> try to be a little less convincing
599 2011-09-29 08:25:13 <wumpus> AlexWaters: cool
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601 2011-09-29 08:28:15 <wumpus> AlexWaters: please let me know if you come across it again, google doesn't turn op much
602 2011-09-29 08:30:03 <AlexWaters> ok they were at the btc conference, let me find it
603 2011-09-29 08:31:32 <chris989> Alexwaters: I am at the command line GUI of Python for Window, and pywallet.py is on my desktop. Care to toss me another bone?
604 2011-09-29 08:32:37 <AlexWaters> chris989: I have no idea how pywallet works #python should be able to help though =/
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606 2011-09-29 08:33:01 <chris989> OK. Thanks.
607 2011-09-29 08:33:01 <AlexWaters> to output to a file I think you would do pywallet.py > file.txt
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652 2011-09-29 09:50:46 <ThomasV> sorry to ask again, I gorgot : what is the .git url of a pull request? I don't find the link
653 2011-09-29 09:50:52 <ThomasV> *forgot*
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656 2011-09-29 09:54:17 <TuxBlackEdo> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git.git
657 2011-09-29 09:58:16 <ThomasV> TuxBlackEdo: 4404
658 2011-09-29 09:58:20 <ThomasV> err, 404
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691 2011-09-29 11:24:23 <diki> is there any bitcoin patch which adds an rpc command to get only generated and immature transactions
692 2011-09-29 11:24:40 <diki> i.e instead of getting ALL transactions with listtransactions i need to list only generated blocks
693 2011-09-29 11:24:52 <diki> generated/immature etc
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708 2011-09-29 12:04:29 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * ra715a9b / .npmignore : Fix npm still including build-cc/.wafpickle-7. See #35. - http://git.io/BWtJfg
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733 2011-09-29 13:22:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: have you done any implementation for your compressed block chain format?
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738 2011-09-29 13:32:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: just sent you email RE: multisig transactions
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742 2011-09-29 13:38:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: ack; having addresses in the store without private keys would be useful
743 2011-09-29 13:38:43 <sipa> that shouldn't be hard: we already have the ability for HaveKey() to return true, while GetKey() fails (wallets being encrypted)
744 2011-09-29 13:39:21 <gavinandresen> cool.
745 2011-09-29 13:39:35 <sipa> the only difference is that CreateTransaction can legitimately fail in that case
746 2011-09-29 13:40:43 <sipa> better would probably be to have SelectCoins skip coins that are accessibly through our-but-unavailable keys
747 2011-09-29 13:43:19 <sipa> only inconvenience: the 0.4 wallet format uses ckey entries that are index by pubkey
748 2011-09-29 13:43:33 <sipa> you need something indexed by address/hash160 for that
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786 2011-09-29 15:07:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * re8e0e23 / src/bitcoinrpc.cpp :
787 2011-09-29 15:07:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #538 from tcatm/deprecate-midstate
788 2011-09-29 15:07:44 <CIA-101> bitcoin: deprecate midstate and hash1 in getwork - http://git.io/LCklqw
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820 2011-09-29 16:49:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Nils Schneider master * r7dd4001 / src/bitcoinrpc.cpp :
821 2011-09-29 16:49:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #537 from tcatm/remove-deprecated-rpcs
822 2011-09-29 16:49:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: remove deprecated RPCs - http://git.io/IMU8bg
823 2011-09-29 16:50:17 <diki> is there any bitcoin patch which adds an rpc command to get only generated and immature transactions
824 2011-09-29 16:50:29 <diki> generated/immature etc
825 2011-09-29 16:50:49 <diki> cause currently i loop over listtransactions and that isnt very good
826 2011-09-29 16:53:24 <luke-jr> diki: I had a patch for bitcoind to do that
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841 2011-09-29 17:18:08 <genjix> gavinandresen: hey, about your DoS code... why did you choose a ranking algorithm over a more strict policy?
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843 2011-09-29 17:18:36 <genjix> i was holding off disconnect policies for nodes based of how bitcoin behaves
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845 2011-09-29 17:18:51 <genjix> but my default would be to insta-connect any node which misbehaves in the slightest
846 2011-09-29 17:18:53 <tcatm> genjix: IIRC there's a post about that on the mailing list
847 2011-09-29 17:18:56 <gavinandresen> genjix: hmm? What would the more strict policy be?
848 2011-09-29 17:18:57 <genjix> *disconnect
849 2011-09-29 17:19:16 <genjix> a more strict policy = unforgiving policy
850 2011-09-29 17:19:23 <gavinandresen> genjix: ah, insta-disconnect... well, DoS(100, ...) means insta-disconnect under the default limits
851 2011-09-29 17:19:53 <genjix> yep, but i'm just curious why if a node sends the version message twice, why isn't that grounds for dropping the link
852 2011-09-29 17:20:16 <gavinandresen> genjix: I wanted to be a little more forgiving in lots of cases where maybe a coding error in an alternate client resulted in mildly weird behavior
853 2011-09-29 17:21:18 <gavinandresen> genjix: and if you want a no-tolerance policy for your node, you can set -banscore=1 and get it
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855 2011-09-29 17:22:02 <genjix> well by having an unforgiving policy from the start
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857 2011-09-29 17:22:11 <genjix> it forces alt clients to get the protocol right
858 2011-09-29 17:22:22 <genjix> rather than letting errors creep in and having them deviate.
859 2011-09-29 17:22:50 <genjix> as the python mantra goes: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/
860 2011-09-29 17:23:02 <genjix> There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
861 2011-09-29 17:23:09 <genjix> Errors should never pass silently.
862 2011-09-29 17:23:17 <genjix> Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
863 2011-09-29 17:23:58 <genjix> heh most of that applies here: "Explicit is better than implicit.", "Simple is better than complex."
864 2011-09-29 17:24:21 <gavinandresen> I'd like to see a release behaving properly with the default -banscore=100; we could switch the default to -banscore=1 if all goes well
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866 2011-09-29 17:24:51 <genjix> k
867 2011-09-29 17:25:04 <phantomcircuit> im mildly regretting eating sushi in poland
868 2011-09-29 17:25:17 <gavinandresen> only mildly? you're doing well, then
869 2011-09-29 17:25:17 <genjix> why
870 2011-09-29 17:25:31 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, iknorite
871 2011-09-29 17:25:35 <gavinandresen> (bad sushi can be really bad.... spend the day in the toilet bad...)
872 2011-09-29 17:25:44 <phantomcircuit> im going to wash it down with a bunch of coca cola
873 2011-09-29 17:25:47 <phantomcircuit> acid kills
874 2011-09-29 17:26:16 <genjix> i never ate sushi until a week ago. loved it :)
875 2011-09-29 17:26:40 <phantomcircuit> i suspect sushi in europe is consistently subpar
876 2011-09-29 17:26:44 <phantomcircuit> tuna was bland
877 2011-09-29 17:26:52 <genjix> one i ate was homemade
878 2011-09-29 17:26:55 <phantomcircuit> then again i cant imagine where it actually came from...
879 2011-09-29 17:27:09 <genjix> oh...
880 2011-09-29 17:27:17 <genjix> you're inland :o
881 2011-09-29 17:27:20 <phantomcircuit> the quality of the fish is far more important
882 2011-09-29 17:27:32 <genjix> ruh roh
883 2011-09-29 17:27:40 <genjix> hohoho
884 2011-09-29 17:27:59 <phantomcircuit> it's funny the way im processing bitcoin deposits works perfectly
885 2011-09-29 17:28:13 <phantomcircuit> but it spikes cpu usage every few seconds with the list transactions call
886 2011-09-29 17:28:55 <phantomcircuit> bah i cant get the qt gui to build
887 2011-09-29 17:31:08 <phantomcircuit> there's a dependency missing for QtDBus
888 2011-09-29 17:32:03 <genjix> there shouldn't be.
889 2011-09-29 17:32:11 <phantomcircuit> ah but there is
890 2011-09-29 17:32:12 <phantomcircuit> :P
891 2011-09-29 17:32:20 <genjix> DBus is part of the new desktops for gnome/kde
892 2011-09-29 17:32:35 <phantomcircuit> yes i know what dbus is
893 2011-09-29 17:32:44 <genjix> grep the qt headers i guess
894 2011-09-29 17:32:51 <phantomcircuit> it's used 99% to display desktop notifications
895 2011-09-29 17:32:57 <phantomcircuit> it's a library dependency
896 2011-09-29 17:33:05 <genjix> no it isn't
897 2011-09-29 17:33:08 <phantomcircuit> https://privatepaste.com/download/9b4e2be68b
898 2011-09-29 17:33:12 <phantomcircuit> genjix, lol yes it is
899 2011-09-29 17:33:14 <genjix> dbus is for messaging service
900 2011-09-29 17:33:20 <phantomcircuit> QtDBus.so
901 2011-09-29 17:33:31 <phantomcircuit> silly genjix
902 2011-09-29 17:33:38 <genjix> loads of apps use it behind the scenes but you don't notice it
903 2011-09-29 17:33:51 <genjix> it's how the kde toolchain communicates between each other
904 2011-09-29 17:34:11 <phantomcircuit> i hardly use any kde programs
905 2011-09-29 17:34:12 <phantomcircuit> so
906 2011-09-29 17:34:33 <genjix> yeah but i think gnome is the same
907 2011-09-29 17:34:35 <phantomcircuit> also there is something wrong with the Makefile generation
908 2011-09-29 17:34:43 <phantomcircuit> dbus was written for gnome
909 2011-09-29 17:34:47 <genjix> nope
910 2011-09-29 17:34:49 <phantomcircuit> so yeah im guessing it is
911 2011-09-29 17:34:51 <genjix> it was a kde program
912 2011-09-29 17:34:53 <genjix> dcop
913 2011-09-29 17:35:06 <phantomcircuit> cant be it would have been called kbus
914 2011-09-29 17:35:38 <phantomcircuit> anyways like i was saying
915 2011-09-29 17:35:46 <phantomcircuit> 99% of it's use it desktop notifications
916 2011-09-29 17:35:53 <genjix> well dcop is the old precursor to dbus (part of kde project). there was a program (a gui viewer for dcop) called kdcop
917 2011-09-29 17:35:59 mosimo has joined
918 2011-09-29 17:36:11 <genjix> there's something similar now you can use to view all the programs and possible function calls
919 2011-09-29 17:36:57 <phantomcircuit> anyways this has nothing to do with what i was saying
920 2011-09-29 17:37:03 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hegjon@gmail.com * r225 /wiki/UsingMaven.wiki: Updated links to reflect recent changes in our Maven repository
921 2011-09-29 17:37:09 <genjix> a linux desktop is more complex than you think. it's lots of background daemons, and you communicate using dbus
922 2011-09-29 17:37:28 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin-qt.pro file is broken in that it's not generating a makefile which includes libQtDBus.so even when it's required
923 2011-09-29 17:37:50 <genjix> set LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
924 2011-09-29 17:37:58 <phantomcircuit> the library path is fine
925 2011-09-29 17:38:02 <phantomcircuit> the makefile is broken
926 2011-09-29 17:38:38 <phantomcircuit> simply adding -lQtDBus to the end of the g++ line resulted in a successful build
927 2011-09-29 17:38:47 <phantomcircuit> so obviously it's the build system
928 2011-09-29 17:40:56 <phantomcircuit> sorting by address in the gui is far too slow
929 2011-09-29 17:42:42 <phantomcircuit> looks good other than that
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944 2011-09-29 18:00:41 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: there's a pull request to fix the dependency...
945 2011-09-29 18:00:49 <phantomcircuit> ah
946 2011-09-29 18:01:01 <phantomcircuit> anything about the speed of address sorting
947 2011-09-29 18:01:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r9a7e5ed / (15 files in 5 dirs):
948 2011-09-29 18:01:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #539 from laanwj/qt2
949 2011-09-29 18:01:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Qt GUI updates - http://git.io/LtloFQ
950 2011-09-29 18:01:11 ThomasV has joined
951 2011-09-29 18:01:13 <gavinandresen> ^-- that one
952 2011-09-29 18:01:23 <phantomcircuit> lold
953 2011-09-29 18:01:46 <ThomasV> me?
954 2011-09-29 18:02:26 peck has joined
955 2011-09-29 18:05:16 <copumpkin> it'd be nice if the bitcoin client showed you your balance at the point every transaction happened
956 2011-09-29 18:07:02 <tcatm> copumpkin: I think the QT gui supports csv export so you could calculate that easily using gnumeric or similar applications
957 2011-09-29 18:07:24 <copumpkin> oh, I'm sure I could calculate it :) I just meant from a "ease of use" perspective
958 2011-09-29 18:07:39 <gavinandresen> grr qmake now gives me RCC: Error in 'src/qt/bitcoin.qrc': Cannot find file 'locale/bitcoin_de.qm'
959 2011-09-29 18:08:10 <ThomasV> it's the germans!
960 2011-09-29 18:08:21 <ThomasV> they are always to blame
961 2011-09-29 18:08:31 pensan has joined
962 2011-09-29 18:08:32 <crazy_imp> :(
963 2011-09-29 18:08:52 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about qt translation stuff....
964 2011-09-29 18:10:02 <crazy_imp> gavinandresen: guess you need to compile it for english - or just copy the english version of the file to locale/bitcoin_de.qm
965 2011-09-29 18:11:52 <phantomcircuit> i suspect he is
966 2011-09-29 18:12:07 <tcatm> does anyone know whether there's a cross-platform ByteSwap function in boost or libc?
967 2011-09-29 18:14:36 <tcatm> mhm, thinking about it and reading the code I'd like to change the format of getwork's data field to be not byteswapped at all. this might avoid byteswapping completely
968 2011-09-29 18:14:58 <genjix> tcatm: boost defines some macros
969 2011-09-29 18:15:17 <genjix> to see what kind of system you're on.
970 2011-09-29 18:16:04 <gavinandresen> tcatm: the #else part of your patch looks like it is cross-platform
971 2011-09-29 18:16:25 <copumpkin> tcatm: htons and friends? what kind of behavior do you need?
972 2011-09-29 18:16:38 <gavinandresen> tcatm: the #if bits are just optimizations .....
973 2011-09-29 18:16:48 <tcatm> gavinandresen: yes, but some platforms (x86) do have native bswap instructions and I'd like to use a library that knows about this
974 2011-09-29 18:17:10 <gavinandresen> tcatm: why?
975 2011-09-29 18:17:22 <gavinandresen> tcatm: is it a bottleneck for something critical?
976 2011-09-29 18:17:25 <copumpkin> that must be an awfully tight loop you're running :)
977 2011-09-29 18:17:44 <phantomcircuit> lol
978 2011-09-29 18:17:54 <copumpkin> and if it isn't, I hear there's a cream for that
979 2011-09-29 18:18:36 <tcatm> gavinandresen: cleaner code. I don't really like the bitshifting and or'ing in bitcoin and would prefer more abstract code.
980 2011-09-29 18:19:12 <gavinandresen> tcatm: as long as it doesn't add another dependency, I like not duplicating code
981 2011-09-29 18:19:26 <copumpkin> tcatm: htons? :P
982 2011-09-29 18:19:28 iocor has joined
983 2011-09-29 18:19:37 <copumpkin> they're pretty ubiquitous
984 2011-09-29 18:19:55 <tcatm> once midstate is deprecated we will be able to serialize CBlock directly without duplicating the seralizer in FormatHashBuffers()
985 2011-09-29 18:19:56 <genjix> tcatm: https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin/blobs/master/src/util/serializer.cpp
986 2011-09-29 18:20:16 * copumpkin shrugs
987 2011-09-29 18:20:37 <tcatm> copumpkin: htons might work
988 2011-09-29 18:20:51 <copumpkin> there are a lot of similar ones for different sizes and directions
989 2011-09-29 18:20:56 coblee has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
990 2011-09-29 18:21:06 <copumpkin> instead of thinking in terms of swapping, they just talk about sending stuff to and from network byte order
991 2011-09-29 18:21:17 iocor has quit (Client Quit)
992 2011-09-29 18:21:18 <copumpkin> so they're either nops or a swap
993 2011-09-29 18:21:19 <tcatm> genjix: that code's license is not compatible with bitcoin's
994 2011-09-29 18:21:37 Clipse has joined
995 2011-09-29 18:21:38 <copumpkin> the advantage is that they're everywhere, the disadvantage if you're in a tight loop is that they're function calls
996 2011-09-29 18:22:03 pensan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
997 2011-09-29 18:22:09 <copumpkin> but most of the time a call overhead is pretty low compared to other things you're doing when you're converting byte orders (typically writing to network or disk, which are many orders of magnitude more expensive than a swap)
998 2011-09-29 18:22:09 <phantomcircuit> they also just are for loops typically
999 2011-09-29 18:23:24 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1000 2011-09-29 18:24:11 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, it's my understanding that special instructions for byte swapping only exist for 32 and 64 bit values
1001 2011-09-29 18:24:42 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: yes. and we need to byteswap 32 bit values
1002 2011-09-29 18:25:09 <phantomcircuit> unless you're going to be calling the function billions of times
1003 2011-09-29 18:25:14 <phantomcircuit> you'll never notice the difference
1004 2011-09-29 18:25:45 <phantomcircuit> the cost of byte swapping 32 bit integers as 4 instructions instead of 1 is pretty much non existent
1005 2011-09-29 18:25:50 <genjix> yeah if you're worried about this
1006 2011-09-29 18:25:56 <genjix> then stop using c++
1007 2011-09-29 18:26:02 <tcatm> speed is not that important as it is called only like 64 times per getwork
1008 2011-09-29 18:26:16 <genjix> vtables are a million times worse.
1009 2011-09-29 18:26:26 <tcatm> but I'd like to have clean and precise code that doesn't re-invent byteswapping
1010 2011-09-29 18:26:46 disq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1011 2011-09-29 18:26:49 <genjix> well it isn't in the c++ standard afaik
1012 2011-09-29 18:26:52 <lfm> it seems to me it just makes sense to use builtin and standard lib calls rather than writing them yourself
1013 2011-09-29 18:26:53 <genjix> i looked around a bit
1014 2011-09-29 18:27:09 <genjix> there was some reason or another, but cant remember
1015 2011-09-29 18:27:23 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, i would agree except that the code already has to be there for byte swapping 128 bit integers
1016 2011-09-29 18:27:28 <genjix> i think it was something like that even with systems, they dont use consistent byte ordering for different things
1017 2011-09-29 18:27:36 <phantomcircuit> so reusing that code instead of using the library calls seems preferable
1018 2011-09-29 18:27:44 <tcatm> however, it looks like FormatHashBuffers() byteswaps everything and the SHA256 wrapper will byteswap again before hashing it maybe we can avoid byteswapping completely
1019 2011-09-29 18:27:53 <phantomcircuit> 256*
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1022 2011-09-29 18:28:42 <phantomcircuit> genjix, hey donald came on skype for a minute and then disappeared saying nothing useful
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1024 2011-09-29 18:29:34 <lfm> phantomcircuit: the byteswaps for sha256 are 32 bit
1025 2011-09-29 18:30:24 <phantomcircuit> i seem to remember there being about 4 byteswaps for 1 number when looking at the scripting engine
1026 2011-09-29 18:30:29 <phantomcircuit> so i dont think it's quite that simple
1027 2011-09-29 18:31:36 <lfm> was this for a bigendian machine or something?
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1031 2011-09-29 18:39:24 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #44: FAILURE in 17 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/44/
1032 2011-09-29 18:39:25 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: put Q_OBJECT everywhere it should be (removes warnings when running lupdate)
1033 2011-09-29 18:39:25 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: show balance in sendcoins screen (issue #24)
1034 2011-09-29 18:39:26 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: make qmake build system more configurable (as suggested by lukejr)
1035 2011-09-29 18:39:26 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: Change define to determine use of DBUS to USE_DBUS, to prevent overlap with Qt-defined QT_DBUS
1036 2011-09-29 18:39:27 <BlueMattBot> * jannepulk: Send Coins page not cleared when changing tabs. Clear all button for clearing the entries
1037 2011-09-29 18:39:28 <BlueMattBot> * jannepulk: Removing the if statement entirely - not needed.
1038 2011-09-29 18:39:28 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: translation handling improvements
1039 2011-09-29 18:39:29 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: use median filter for peer-reported reported number of blocks
1040 2011-09-29 18:39:29 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: Update "other files" in Qt Creator with all documentation now that the projects merged
1041 2011-09-29 18:39:30 <BlueMattBot> * laanwj: Add assertion size>0 to MedianFilter
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1046 2011-09-29 18:43:12 <lfm> I agree with tcatm : the byteswaps in getwork (and its kin) are counterproductive in some cases just from a code size point of view. it would be better if the miners did all their own byteswaps if they needed them.
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1050 2011-09-29 18:53:01 <phantomcircuit> lfm, that seems reasonable
1051 2011-09-29 18:53:30 <tcatm> I think we even have some ancient SSE2 compatibility code (alignup template) that is not used anymore.
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1053 2011-09-29 18:54:58 <genjix> if you're looking to shorten extraneous code, start with the BigNum implementation
1054 2011-09-29 18:55:17 <genjix> damn
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1056 2011-09-29 18:56:47 <tcatm> I prefer to start with code I'm already very familiar with, like the miner :)
1057 2011-09-29 18:57:41 <lfm> I expect bignum is written to be more general purpose than we need.
1058 2011-09-29 18:57:50 zhoutong has joined
1059 2011-09-29 18:58:22 <lfm> more abstract
1060 2011-09-29 18:59:39 <tcatm> I suspect there's a lot of potential for more optimized code in all the serializer functions, too.
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1064 2011-09-29 19:01:23 <genjix> yeah a lot of that code is copy pasted
1065 2011-09-29 19:01:25 <lfm> the serializer is generally tied with i/o tho Id think where the code efficiency should rightly be secondary to clearity since the i/o operations dominate the time
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1067 2011-09-29 19:01:58 <genjix> no need for macros either
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1082 2011-09-29 19:16:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan master * r07e2882 / bitcoin-qt.pro :
1083 2011-09-29 19:16:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: qmake build system improvements
1084 2011-09-29 19:16:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - USE_SSL=1 to support RPC SSL
1085 2011-09-29 19:16:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - BDB_LIB_SUFFIX= to link against specific BDB version
1086 2011-09-29 19:16:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - Fix typo
1087 2011-09-29 19:16:30 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - Start lrelease during qmake phase to prevent errors/warnings - http://git.io/j9Zg5w
1088 2011-09-29 19:16:31 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * re297ea9 / bitcoin-qt.pro :
1089 2011-09-29 19:16:31 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #542 from laanwj/qt2
1090 2011-09-29 19:16:32 <CIA-101> bitcoin: qmake build system improvements - http://git.io/p7fYWw
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1106 2011-09-29 19:26:03 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1107 2011-09-29 19:26:04 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #45: FIXED in 7 min 15 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/45/
1108 2011-09-29 19:26:04 <BlueMattBot> laanwj: qmake build system improvements
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1127 2011-09-29 19:37:13 <topace> hmmm my bitcoind now says i have no transactions
1128 2011-09-29 19:37:16 <topace> ./bitcoin listtransactions
1129 2011-09-29 19:37:16 <topace> [
1130 2011-09-29 19:37:16 <topace> ]
1131 2011-09-29 19:37:58 <topace> (and no balance)
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1141 2011-09-29 19:50:58 <genjix> HAHAHAHA
1142 2011-09-29 19:51:10 <genjix> you jealous? http://yfrog.com/hsf2whbj and http://yfrog.com/o06i6bzj
1143 2011-09-29 19:51:25 <CIA-101> bitcoin: various qmake_system_crypto++ * r821382..aaa1c3 bitcoind-personal/ (497 files in 64 dirs): (480 commits)
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1146 2011-09-29 19:54:11 <luke-jr> genjix: fail
1147 2011-09-29 19:54:16 <luke-jr> that's called obsession :p
1148 2011-09-29 19:55:11 iocor has joined
1149 2011-09-29 19:55:24 <genjix> next you'll be saying: "i don't like cake anyway >:( "
1150 2011-09-29 19:55:55 <luke-jr> well, that too
1151 2011-09-29 19:55:56 random_cat has joined
1152 2011-09-29 19:55:58 <luke-jr> but that's personal preference
1153 2011-09-29 19:56:03 <genjix> :)
1154 2011-09-29 19:56:18 * luke-jr ate exactly 0 of his kids' birthday cakes
1155 2011-09-29 19:56:46 <genjix> don't have a sweet tooth?
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1159 2011-09-29 20:00:35 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r3af49b11f611 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-9999.1.ebuild bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt-9999: updated mainline build system
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1197 2011-09-29 20:21:01 <wardearia> Anyone around that lives in New York near JFK?
1198 2011-09-29 20:21:19 da2ce7 has joined
1199 2011-09-29 20:22:16 <wardearia> or anyone available to visit JFK airport tomorrow morning to help me to get to Newark airport asap after I arrive at JFK.
1200 2011-09-29 20:23:00 eT-eB has joined
1201 2011-09-29 20:24:29 <eT-eB> Hi, does anyone know where i can get some BTC on the test network?
1202 2011-09-29 20:25:44 ThomasV has joined
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1226 2011-09-29 21:00:08 kalamajo has joined
1227 2011-09-29 21:00:34 <kalamajo> this stuff actually work?
1228 2011-09-29 21:00:51 <kalamajo> so i can run a computer program and generate bitcoins then transfer to US $?
1229 2011-09-29 21:02:23 wardearia has joined
1230 2011-09-29 21:03:06 Moonies has joined
1231 2011-09-29 21:04:08 <kalamajo> well i looks like people actually bid on these things on ebay
1232 2011-09-29 21:04:22 <kalamajo> so it has some market valuje
1233 2011-09-29 21:04:24 <kalamajo> value
1234 2011-09-29 21:04:28 strk has joined
1235 2011-09-29 21:04:30 <strk> UNKNOWN EXCEPTION bitcoin in CMyApp::OnUnhandledException()
1236 2011-09-29 21:06:36 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1240 2011-09-29 21:09:38 <genjix> kalamajo: best to go ask that in #bitcoin
1241 2011-09-29 21:09:43 <genjix> this is mostly developers here
1242 2011-09-29 21:10:27 rdponticelli has joined
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1246 2011-09-29 21:12:33 <luke-jr> kalamajo: if you have a good Radeon GPU, yes; see #Eligius
1247 2011-09-29 21:13:34 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1248 2011-09-29 21:13:45 baz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1249 2011-09-29 21:13:57 strk has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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1253 2011-09-29 21:14:52 <strk> if you had any question for me please ask again
1254 2011-09-29 21:15:25 baz has joined
1255 2011-09-29 21:16:48 <kalamajo> So I should go out and upgrade my graphics car
1256 2011-09-29 21:16:50 <kalamajo> card
1257 2011-09-29 21:17:13 <kalamajo> how much $ per hour with an average computer with a good graphics card?
1258 2011-09-29 21:17:27 <kalamajo> well bitcoin/hr
1259 2011-09-29 21:17:27 <jrmithdobbs> 0
1260 2011-09-29 21:17:43 <kalamajo> or equivalent
1261 2011-09-29 21:17:51 da2ce7 has joined
1262 2011-09-29 21:17:57 <luke-jr> kalamajo: with a Radeon 5850, currently
1263 2011-09-29 21:18:01 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 308
1264 2011-09-29 21:18:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 308 Khps, given current difficulty of 1689334.4045971 , is 746 years, 51 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 16 minutes, and 44 seconds
1265 2011-09-29 21:18:05 <luke-jr> err
1266 2011-09-29 21:18:07 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 308
1267 2011-09-29 21:18:08 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 308 Khps, given current difficulty of 1689334.4045971 , is 0.000183382958624 BTC per day and 7.64095660933e-06 BTC per hour.
1268 2011-09-29 21:18:08 karnac has joined
1269 2011-09-29 21:18:11 <luke-jr> ^
1270 2011-09-29 21:18:16 <luke-jr> wait
1271 2011-09-29 21:18:17 <luke-jr> that's wrong
1272 2011-09-29 21:18:19 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 308000
1273 2011-09-29 21:18:20 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 308000 Khps, given current difficulty of 1689334.4045971 , is 0.183382958624 BTC per day and 0.00764095660933 BTC per hour.
1274 2011-09-29 21:18:23 <luke-jr> ^ that's a 5850
1275 2011-09-29 21:18:54 <luke-jr> so about 3 cents per hour at the current market rate
1276 2011-09-29 21:19:17 <kalamajo> k
1277 2011-09-29 21:19:30 <luke-jr> hint: bitcoin doesn't exist for mining, mining exists for bitcoin
1278 2011-09-29 21:19:39 <luke-jr> bitcoin exists as a medium of trade
1279 2011-09-29 21:19:46 <luke-jr> ie, you do work, you get paid bitcoind
1280 2011-09-29 21:19:48 <luke-jr> bitcoins*
1281 2011-09-29 21:19:58 <luke-jr> you want to get work done, you pay someone else bitcoins
1282 2011-09-29 21:20:09 <kalamajo> oh
1283 2011-09-29 21:20:29 <kalamajo> how many bitcoins would it take for you to mow my lawn?
1284 2011-09-29 21:20:48 <strk> would making mining less expensive undermine security ?
1285 2011-09-29 21:21:16 <genjix> strk: easier to reverse blockchain
1286 2011-09-29 21:21:22 t3a has joined
1287 2011-09-29 21:21:24 <kalamajo> !ping
1288 2011-09-29 21:21:31 <genjix> hint it's not the work that matters but the resources to create that work
1289 2011-09-29 21:22:10 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1290 2011-09-29 21:22:23 <luke-jr> kalamajo: I don't mow lawns
1291 2011-09-29 21:22:39 wayne has joined
1292 2011-09-29 21:22:48 <genjix> yeah he only sells his body
1293 2011-09-29 21:22:54 log0s has joined
1294 2011-09-29 21:22:59 <luke-jr> kalamajo: I'll write code for 10 BTC/hr tho
1295 2011-09-29 21:23:03 <vegard> strk: ah there you are again. the initial download time is only going to get worse with time
1296 2011-09-29 21:23:16 <luke-jr> well, maybe. depends on the value
1297 2011-09-29 21:23:19 * luke-jr glances
1298 2011-09-29 21:23:21 <kalamajo> I see
1299 2011-09-29 21:23:25 <strk> vegard: I started downloadin the tarball
1300 2011-09-29 21:23:33 <strk> 46 secs to go
1301 2011-09-29 21:23:39 <strk> if someone would have told me earlier...
1302 2011-09-29 21:23:43 <vegard> it has how much of the block chain?
1303 2011-09-29 21:23:57 <strk> I closed the client at 350k
1304 2011-09-29 21:23:58 <vegard> and why doesn't anybody fix the bitcoin client to go faster?
1305 2011-09-29 21:24:09 <strk> eh, see I moved in -dev ? :)
1306 2011-09-29 21:24:17 <strk> I don't have bitcoin to pay for that service though
1307 2011-09-29 21:24:27 <strk> but I'm a programmer too, so I could look at it for some coins :)
1308 2011-09-29 21:25:55 <luke-jr> vegard: gavin recently merged an optimization for block chain download
1309 2011-09-29 21:25:57 <luke-jr> vegard: should be in 0.5
1310 2011-09-29 21:26:11 <vegard> ah, sounds nice
1311 2011-09-29 21:26:19 * vegard glances at topic
1312 2011-09-29 21:26:46 <vegard> I'm still using an old version. is it harmful?
1313 2011-09-29 21:27:10 <vegard> 32300
1314 2011-09-29 21:27:21 <luke-jr> vegard: yes, and has known exploits
1315 2011-09-29 21:27:31 <vegard> really? which ones?
1316 2011-09-29 21:27:32 <luke-jr> unless you use Gentoo maybe
1317 2011-09-29 21:27:41 <luke-jr> vegard: someone could crash your client
1318 2011-09-29 21:27:50 <vegard> should upgrade then :-/
1319 2011-09-29 21:27:59 <luke-jr> Gentoo has a patched 0.3.23 ;)
1320 2011-09-29 21:28:09 <luke-jr> but probably still has other issues
1321 2011-09-29 21:28:27 <luke-jr> ofc, Gentoo has 0.4.0 too
1322 2011-09-29 21:29:57 <vegard> I love that the scalability page on the bitcoin wiki talks about gigabytes per block and you'd only need a new 3-terabyte disk every 21 days to keep up, etc.
1323 2011-09-29 21:31:31 <luke-jr> vegard: by that time, 3 TB won't be a new disk
1324 2011-09-29 21:32:08 <vegard> hm. I started up 0.4.0 from bitcoin.org/sourceforge and it printed "Bitcoin version 0.4.0-beta" in the log
1325 2011-09-29 21:33:16 eT-eB has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1326 2011-09-29 21:33:17 <luke-jr> lol
1327 2011-09-29 21:35:08 <helo> should 1.0 not be the first non-beta?
1328 2011-09-29 21:35:09 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1330 2011-09-29 21:35:31 <lianj> luke-jr: thats what they told us about a cpu core too
1331 2011-09-29 21:35:50 <luke-jr> lianj: what?
1332 2011-09-29 21:36:14 <lianj> that its scales and scales
1333 2011-09-29 21:36:48 Daniel0108 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1334 2011-09-29 21:37:11 <strk> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1335 2011-09-29 21:37:11 <strk> Db::open: Invalid argument
1336 2011-09-29 21:37:11 <strk> bitcoin in AppInit()
1337 2011-09-29 21:37:24 <strk> I've rsync'ed the .bitcoin dir from another host
1338 2011-09-29 21:37:41 <strk> and just started the just-downloaded 0.4.0 64bit version
1339 2011-09-29 21:37:48 <strk> the other machine was a 32bit one
1340 2011-09-29 21:38:24 <strk> beside, the client doesn't die
1341 2011-09-29 21:38:58 <strk> stuck in main loop
1342 2011-09-29 21:39:21 <helo> did you stop the bitcoin running on the other host before the rsync?
1343 2011-09-29 21:40:22 <luke-jr> strk: you need to shutdown bitcoind to make a backup/copy
1344 2011-09-29 21:40:24 <strk> got me (no)
1345 2011-09-29 21:40:54 <strk> now it's off
1346 2011-09-29 21:41:17 <strk> but there's still a .lock in the dir
1347 2011-09-29 21:41:28 <strk> may be related to the previously reported exception
1348 2011-09-29 21:41:29 baz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1349 2011-09-29 21:43:34 <strk> alright, .lock removed, re-synched and started ok
1350 2011-09-29 21:43:44 <strk> except for a warning: (bitcoin:23812): IBUS-WARNING **: Connect to unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-G680yHZTZP,guid=90601e9f7b54e212447da87e4e4d3819 failed: Failed to connect to socket /tmp/dbus-G680yHZTZP: Connection refused.
1351 2011-09-29 21:44:32 <strk> ah, got first coin !
1352 2011-09-29 21:49:33 clr_ has joined
1353 2011-09-29 21:50:05 <strk> I always get the bitcoin in CMyApp::OnUnhandledException() on exit (after exit)
1354 2011-09-29 21:50:05 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1355 2011-09-29 21:52:04 enquirer has quit (Read error: No route to host)
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1359 2011-09-29 21:57:14 BTCTrader is now known as BTC_away
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1361 2011-09-29 21:58:34 <vegard> I just had an idea
1362 2011-09-29 21:59:23 <vegard> it is not necessary for any client to store the full history
1363 2011-09-29 22:00:28 <genjix> fClient
1364 2011-09-29 22:00:31 <vegard> it is enough to store enough history to be secure, let's say the previous N blocks/transactions
1365 2011-09-29 22:00:50 <genjix> wont work
1366 2011-09-29 22:01:04 <gmaxwell> vegard: are you describing a lite client?
1367 2011-09-29 22:01:14 <gmaxwell> Certantly those work, but they can't do full chain validation, of course.
1368 2011-09-29 22:01:14 <vegard> and it instead becomes the burden of the sender to store the block headers on top of their transaction output (their coins)
1369 2011-09-29 22:01:20 <vegard> not a lite client. a full client
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1371 2011-09-29 22:01:58 <gmaxwell> vegard: how does it tell a block isn't BS?
1372 2011-09-29 22:02:01 <vegard> so that when the spender wants to spend his/her coins, he provides this chain of blocks that "bury"/prove his/her old transaction
1373 2011-09-29 22:02:05 <luke-jr> vegard: how would you send old blocks to new clients/
1374 2011-09-29 22:02:09 <wardearia> Is anyone here from New York by any chance?
1375 2011-09-29 22:02:20 <gmaxwell> vegard: it sounds like you're describing the lite clients.
1376 2011-09-29 22:02:34 <luke-jr> vegard: a full client needs to be able to upload all the existing blocks
1377 2011-09-29 22:02:38 <vegard> luke-jr: new clients can query existing clients. the longest proof-of-work chain wins
1378 2011-09-29 22:02:49 <gmaxwell> vegard: A full client can tell if a particular block confirms to the rules, what you're describing doesn't sound like it could. Instead its depending on other nodes to do that for it.
1379 2011-09-29 22:03:04 <gmaxwell> er conforms.
1380 2011-09-29 22:03:49 <gmaxwell> I can't type today, lets try this again.
1381 2011-09-29 22:04:01 <vegard> it's ok, I got the point
1382 2011-09-29 22:04:29 <gmaxwell> The fundimental distinction between a lite client and a full one is that a lite client can only validate things with help. It can't take a new block and tell if it follows the bitcoin rules. :)
1383 2011-09-29 22:04:33 <gmaxwell> OK.
1384 2011-09-29 22:04:43 <gmaxwell> Lite clients are a good though.
1385 2011-09-29 22:04:55 <vegard> no, forget about lite and full clients for a moment.
1386 2011-09-29 22:05:07 <genjix> what you're saying is impossible
1387 2011-09-29 22:05:14 <gmaxwell> genjix: ssh
1388 2011-09-29 22:05:22 <vegard> so new clients cannot verify transactions, but clients that do have these last N blocks can
1389 2011-09-29 22:05:24 <genjix> :p
1390 2011-09-29 22:05:34 <vegard> what new clients can do is check that something is the longest chain
1391 2011-09-29 22:05:49 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1392 2011-09-29 22:05:54 <genjix> no they cannot because A depends on B depends on C
1393 2011-09-29 22:05:58 <vegard> once they have the last N blocks of the longest chain, they can start verifying new transactions
1394 2011-09-29 22:06:18 <genjix> no
1395 2011-09-29 22:06:23 <gmaxwell> vegard: What happens if I give you a transaction that is spending an input that was already spend N+1 blocks ago?
1396 2011-09-29 22:06:31 <gmaxwell> s/spend/spent/
1397 2011-09-29 22:06:36 <genjix> who's to say the first block in that sub-chain is valid?
1398 2011-09-29 22:06:46 <gmaxwell> genjix: you could have the headers from the genesis.
1399 2011-09-29 22:07:06 <gmaxwell> The blocks extending the subchain demonstrate the validity of the subchain.
1400 2011-09-29 22:07:15 <vegard> gmaxwell: then you need to provide the "missing" blocks as well
1401 2011-09-29 22:07:26 <genjix> nope you cannot validate the chain gmaxwell without the full block
1402 2011-09-29 22:07:27 <gmaxwell> vegard: How do I know it's missing?
1403 2011-09-29 22:07:34 <vegard> gmaxwell: which you can, since you must keep them
1404 2011-09-29 22:07:42 <genjix> even with headers it could have fraudalent txs
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1406 2011-09-29 22:07:47 <vegard> no it cannot
1407 2011-09-29 22:07:54 <genjix> yes it can
1408 2011-09-29 22:08:00 <vegard> because then the rest of the network wouldn't have accepted it
1409 2011-09-29 22:08:16 <vegard> and you cannot forge the hash in retrospect, so it MUST have been valid
1410 2011-09-29 22:08:26 <vegard> if the current chain extends it
1411 2011-09-29 22:08:36 <genjix> the whole point is you validate a chain until told otherwise
1412 2011-09-29 22:08:40 <gmaxwell> vegard: In block 10 TXN is A is first mined. Then in 100 A is spent. Then at 200 someone gives you a txn spending A. You only have 150+
1413 2011-09-29 22:08:56 <genjix> that's what the checkpoints do. they lockin to the accepted chain
1414 2011-09-29 22:09:24 <gmaxwell> vegard: in that situation how do you know that the transaction is invalid?
1415 2011-09-29 22:09:25 <vegard> gmaxwell: the transaction itself contains the block headers from 100 to 200
1416 2011-09-29 22:09:36 <vegard> oh wait
1417 2011-09-29 22:09:36 <gmaxwell> vegard: the blockheaders don't help you.
1418 2011-09-29 22:09:43 <vegard> sorry, let me read and consider again.
1419 2011-09-29 22:09:58 <genjix> eventually when you start tracing txs back you're going to get a gap
1420 2011-09-29 22:10:08 <gmaxwell> And the person who gives you the transaction is not your friend. He will carefully not tell you about the txn in block 100.
1421 2011-09-29 22:10:11 <genjix> at some point you have to accept the origin as true
1422 2011-09-29 22:10:57 <vegard> gmaxwell: I think you got me.
1423 2011-09-29 22:12:38 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
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1426 2011-09-29 22:16:13 <gmaxwell> vegard: yea, well, I've also solve that particular problem.
1427 2011-09-29 22:16:30 <gmaxwell> vegard: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=21995.0
1428 2011-09-29 22:18:01 <gmaxwell> Bytecoin made a somewhat more complete version of that proposal which completely reverses the direction of the chain referencing (so it's always an open txn commitment) which drastically reduces the required space.. because someone looking to spend an input could always be counted on to store the complete history back to some agreed checkpoints.
1429 2011-09-29 22:19:37 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1432 2011-09-29 22:20:17 <vegard> the receiver signs the transaction?
1433 2011-09-29 22:20:54 rdponticelli has joined
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1438 2011-09-29 22:22:09 <gmaxwell> vegard: no.
1439 2011-09-29 22:22:45 <gmaxwell> The sender still does. But the point is that if someone gives you an input it's worth your time to maintain a copy of the proof that the input is valid yourself.
1440 2011-09-29 22:22:57 <vegard> right
1441 2011-09-29 22:24:02 <vegard> so they maintain a copy of the chain from the point at which they received the txn?
1442 2011-09-29 22:25:15 <gmaxwell> They don't need to maintain the whole chain. Just the transaction itself plus the merkel root fragment required to prove that its an open transaction as of the last block.
1443 2011-09-29 22:25:50 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's not something we can do within bitcoin as it exists today. It would require a major redesign.
1444 2011-09-29 22:26:07 <vegard> yeah, of course.
1445 2011-09-29 22:26:51 SomeoneWeirdzzzz is now known as SomeoneWeird
1446 2011-09-29 22:27:34 <genjix> gmaxwell: i had a similar idea a while back of checkpoint-blocks
1447 2011-09-29 22:27:39 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1448 2011-09-29 22:27:52 pensan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1449 2011-09-29 22:27:53 <genjix> special blocks where the chain can be pruned but contains the current network's state
1450 2011-09-29 22:28:14 <gmaxwell> genjix: yea, what I was proposing on the forum would basically make every block into one of those.
1451 2011-09-29 22:28:35 <genjix> why not every 2000th block?
1452 2011-09-29 22:29:04 <gmaxwell> Because it's actually really cheap to do. You don't acutally retrainsmit the data, you just include an additional root in the coinbase.
1453 2011-09-29 22:29:33 erle- has joined
1454 2011-09-29 22:29:34 <gmaxwell> and updating it is fairly cheap.. ~log2(opentxn) hashes per block on average.
1455 2011-09-29 22:29:54 <genjix> ohhh
1456 2011-09-29 22:30:07 <genjix> i get you. and then i can request the data for that root separately
1457 2011-09-29 22:30:21 <gmaxwell> Yes. Or only fragments of it.
1458 2011-09-29 22:30:24 <genjix> we can actually do that now
1459 2011-09-29 22:30:30 <genjix> using the input script of a coinbase tx
1460 2011-09-29 22:30:39 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you only want to validate a single txn.
1461 2011-09-29 22:31:10 <gmaxwell> The problem is that you need miners to reject blocks that have bad opentxn hashes in them. Otherwise I can mine a bogus one and use it to make it look like txn are open which are not.
1462 2011-09-29 22:31:42 <gmaxwell> Not all miners need to do this, but mostâ because ones who validate will fork the chain from ones who don't should someone write in a bogus hash.
1463 2011-09-29 22:32:15 <gmaxwell> but yes, unlikely bytecoin's more expansive proposal mine could be added to bitcoin as it exists today.
1464 2011-09-29 22:32:44 <gmaxwell> You'd first start writing in the hashes then as of some block number you'd start validating... and if the majority of miners do that, then it's the new normal.
1465 2011-09-29 22:33:02 <genjix> yep
1466 2011-09-29 22:33:09 <genjix> sounds like a good idea.
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1468 2011-09-29 22:33:15 <gmaxwell> It would make it possible to have semi-full nodes that can do real validation but don't have all the data.
1469 2011-09-29 22:33:19 <vegard> gmaxwell: if the receiver also signs the transaction, they can at least prove that the transaction was spent. but still other clients cannot verify that it _wasn't_ spent in the absence of the original receiver.
1470 2011-09-29 22:33:36 <genjix> i actually prefer this for a light client than the idea of a txmatch regex command
1471 2011-09-29 22:33:45 <gmaxwell> vegard: thats the key point that bitcoin today makes impossible unless you have all the data.
1472 2011-09-29 22:34:17 <vegard> I know :)
1473 2011-09-29 22:34:18 <genjix> well you'd still need the txs though, but this is a good idea
1474 2011-09-29 22:34:53 <gmaxwell> my idea is also good for a possible future where full nodes are rare because they are expensive to operate... in that future semi-full nodes could still keep the full ones honest by _randomly_ checking a fraction of the transactions.
1475 2011-09-29 22:35:10 <gmaxwell> "Oh, this got mined? Prove it was valid."
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1477 2011-09-29 22:35:49 <gmaxwell> And they'd give you the tree fragments provine each of the inputs was live in the open set as of N blocks ago.
1478 2011-09-29 22:35:52 <gmaxwell> er proving.
1479 2011-09-29 22:35:53 <vegard> but is there really a need for lightweight nodes that connect directly to the bitcoin network?
1480 2011-09-29 22:36:19 <vegard> if you rely on a trusted provider anyway, why not use custom software that interacts directly with the trusted provider
1481 2011-09-29 22:36:25 <vegard> which, effectively, acts as your bank
1482 2011-09-29 22:36:35 <gmaxwell> vegard: to lower the cost of the services of trusted providers, of course!
1483 2011-09-29 22:37:21 <gmaxwell> If there is a decenteralized option which kinda sucks, the trusted services still need to provide superior service at a cost which justifies their value add. :)
1484 2011-09-29 22:37:24 <vegard> surely their main cost will be network/storage for the full chain?
1485 2011-09-29 22:37:55 <gmaxwell> Sure. And customer service.. and securing their systems.
1486 2011-09-29 22:38:14 <vegard> they'll need that anyway
1487 2011-09-29 22:38:38 <gmaxwell> Their costs aren't high. But if thats the only way to have lite clients they'll be able to charge more than if the network had an effective way of supporting lite clients.
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1490 2011-09-29 22:39:05 <vegard> ok
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1492 2011-09-29 22:39:47 <vegard> I still get the feeling that bitcoin is not truly distributed, though :/
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1494 2011-09-29 22:40:26 <gmaxwell> Well, it's not completely because we don't yet have real software diversity.
1495 2011-09-29 22:40:35 <gmaxwell> But I think we will someday.
1496 2011-09-29 22:41:18 <vegard> I do believe there are real scalability problems
1497 2011-09-29 22:41:52 <vegard> with no known solution, perhaps no solution at all (except "throw more resources at it")
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1500 2011-09-29 22:45:12 <gmaxwell> vegard: everything core to bicoin is linear with usage or better.
1501 2011-09-29 22:45:23 <gmaxwell> So "throw more resources at it" should in fact be a real solution.
1502 2011-09-29 22:45:37 <gmaxwell> But there is also "then don't use bitcoin for that".
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1504 2011-09-29 22:46:26 <gmaxwell> It's true that bitcoin would suck for direct use in a world where you pay a femto-cent to everyone whos shoes you like, for example. But the answer to that is don't use bitcoin for that.
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1506 2011-09-29 22:46:55 <gmaxwell> (in that case you should pay some few bitcoin into a femtopayment system, and then do your tiny transactions to that, settling your bitcoin balance every once in a while)
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1529 2011-09-29 23:17:17 <t3a> when will we see the bitcoin client deleting blocks to save space if ever? or is it being done now?
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1533 2011-09-29 23:18:55 <imsaguy> t3a, pruning has been discussed somewhat
1534 2011-09-29 23:19:36 <t3a> what is the purpose of having a merkle root? to confirm previous transactions?
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1542 2011-09-29 23:32:17 <b4epoche> it's nice to be able to be blunt: http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/features/please-buy-autonomy-503330.html
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1549 2011-09-29 23:39:35 <EvanR> lol
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