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  41 2011-09-30 01:23:18 <TD> gmaxwell: in a world where people are making femtocent transactions like that, it's so far in the future socially that the technology might have easily scaled up to that point
  42 2011-09-30 01:23:26 <TD> so i wouldn't rule out bitcoin for star-trek type stuff like that
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  44 2011-09-30 01:28:02 <genjix> cool someone agrees with me
  45 2011-09-30 01:28:19 <imsaguy> star trek didn't really have currency
  46 2011-09-30 01:28:23 <imsaguy> they were post scarcity
  47 2011-09-30 01:28:44 <imsaguy> in fact, the few times they showed 'trade', it was barter
  48 2011-09-30 01:31:41 <shadders> ahh TD... just the chap I need
  49 2011-09-30 01:32:10 <shadders> lazy parsing conundrum...
  50 2011-09-30 01:32:59 <shadders> since parse could be triggered by any call to a getter or setter, to be safe they should all throw a ProtocolException...
  51 2011-09-30 01:33:17 <shadders> not pretty...
  52 2011-09-30 01:33:41 <TD> you can rethrow as a RuntimeException IMHO
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  54 2011-09-30 01:34:13 <TD> if you want to handle the case of a bad parse but still work lazily, you could always force it to parse with an explicit method
  55 2011-09-30 01:34:21 <shadders> I thought of that... but consider the scenario where client receives corrupt message from the wire...
  56 2011-09-30 01:34:26 <TD> in most cases parsing won't fail because, eg, you got the data from the block chain
  57 2011-09-30 01:34:29 <TD> that is very unlikely
  58 2011-09-30 01:34:38 <TD> messages are checksummed by TCP
  59 2011-09-30 01:34:52 <TD> think about how often you see an image fail to load in your browser because it got corrupted on the wire
  60 2011-09-30 01:35:02 <shadders> then the user is required to catch runtime exceptions with no checked warning that it's needed..
  61 2011-09-30 01:35:06 <gmaxwell> TD: Maybe! But I don't think we should let people get away with faulting bitcoin for not obviously handling every crazy corner case they can think of... It's perfectly fine to sometimes answer "then use something other than bitcoin, a world with bitcoin doesn't have to be a world with nothing else"
  62 2011-09-30 01:35:21 <shadders> bad client on the other end is the scenario I'm thinking of...
  63 2011-09-30 01:35:33 <shadders> sending malformed messages...
  64 2011-09-30 01:35:38 <TD> shadders: no, they aren't. they can let the exception propagate and kill the thread. if they care about this possibility they can call parse() which would throw
  65 2011-09-30 01:36:06 <TD> shadders: if you care about that you need to parse every message so wouldn't be using the lazy parsing mode right
  66 2011-09-30 01:36:17 <TD> shadders: i don't think parsing should always be lazy. it could be optional
  67 2011-09-30 01:36:23 <TD> gmaxwell: sure
  68 2011-09-30 01:36:29 <shadders> ok true...
  69 2011-09-30 01:36:47 <shadders> well atm default is not lazy... can change default behaviour alter..
  70 2011-09-30 01:36:48 <TD> unexpected lazyness is annoying. it can cause weird performance issues you don't expect.
  71 2011-09-30 01:36:52 <TD> yeah
  72 2011-09-30 01:37:19 <shadders> I will make checkParse public as well
  73 2011-09-30 01:37:50 <TD> what is checkParse?
  74 2011-09-30 01:37:58 <shadders> maybeParse...
  75 2011-09-30 01:38:16 <shadders> parse if not already
  76 2011-09-30 01:38:42 <TD> right
  77 2011-09-30 01:40:23 <shadders> k well if yr happy with runtimeexception I can live with that... it's either that or a duplicate set of getField optField, setField optSetField
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 122 2011-09-30 03:11:20 <shadders> TD: is wallet the only thing that uses java serialization now?  I can't find any other references to ObjectOutputStream
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 150 2011-09-30 03:51:38 <luke-jr> louigi: are there coins in the wallet?
 151 2011-09-30 03:51:55 <louigi> hey guys!  I am on Ubuntu, used the stable version, the 0.3 one since July, several days ago blockcount stopped updating. Today tried running 0.4 - still not updating. Any advice?
 152 2011-09-30 03:52:00 <louigi> luke-jr, yep
 153 2011-09-30 03:52:05 <louigi> not a lot though - 1!
 154 2011-09-30 03:52:39 <luke-jr> louigi: do you have a MtGox account?
 155 2011-09-30 03:53:05 HarryS has joined
 156 2011-09-30 03:53:19 <luke-jr> also, what OS?
 157 2011-09-30 03:53:41 <louigi> luke-jr, I do have an mt gox account though I did not use it yet
 158 2011-09-30 03:53:45 <louigi> OS Ubuntu
 159 2011-09-30 03:53:58 <louigi> (it is in the first request there ;))
 160 2011-09-30 03:54:25 <luke-jr> louigi: could you 1) tar up your ~/.bitcoin directory, 2) send the 1 BTC to your MtGox, 3) post the (compressed) tar somewhere public
 161 2011-09-30 03:54:27 <luke-jr> please
 162 2011-09-30 03:54:48 <luke-jr> be sure bitcoin is not running before step 1
 163 2011-09-30 03:55:00 <luke-jr> (I assume you have already tried restarting it)
 164 2011-09-30 03:55:09 <louigi> luke-jr, you mean so that you can look at the wallet and it is empty?
 165 2011-09-30 03:55:24 <louigi> luke-jr, yeah, restarted it many times during several days
 166 2011-09-30 03:55:29 <luke-jr> louigi: I mean so that if someone you don't trust downloads it, they don't steal your 1 BTC ;)
 167 2011-09-30 03:55:34 copumpkin has joined
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 169 2011-09-30 03:55:51 <luke-jr> (including me, since you have no reason to trust me)
 170 2011-09-30 03:56:03 <louigi> luke-jr, k man, I'll send it! I hope this works too
 171 2011-09-30 03:56:04 <gmaxwell> If the blockcount isn't updating, I'd wonder if he's even connected at all?
 172 2011-09-30 03:56:14 <louigi> gmaxwell, it does show 8 connections
 173 2011-09-30 03:56:23 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: he's not the first time I've heard of this problem
 174 2011-09-30 03:56:35 <louigi> 8 connections is the usual number I have
 175 2011-09-30 03:56:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Well, if it's connected and stuck my next guess would be that his blockchain has a data error and no future blocks will validate against it.
 176 2011-09-30 03:56:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if I can reproduce it, I plan to bisect
 177 2011-09-30 03:57:16 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 178 2011-09-30 03:57:17 <gmaxwell> But yea, if it's actually wallet based that would be interesting.
 179 2011-09-30 03:57:49 * luke-jr mostly wants the non-wallet data, but figures it's safest to duplicate as much as possible to try reproducing
 180 2011-09-30 03:58:20 <gmaxwell> if it is just blockchain corruption then the send will work fine, though he won't see it confirm locally.
 181 2011-09-30 03:58:29 <luke-jr> louigi: btw, you didn't mention: which 0.3 version were you using before?
 182 2011-09-30 03:59:14 <louigi> luke-jr, sec, will tell you (got 0.4 running now)
 183 2011-09-30 03:59:59 <luke-jr> louigi: please shutdown 0.4, wait 2 minutes, and backup ~/.bitcoin, before doing anything more (like starting the old version again)
 184 2011-09-30 04:00:05 <louigi> luke-jr, bitcoin-0.3.24
 185 2011-09-30 04:00:07 <luke-jr> k
 186 2011-09-30 04:00:29 <luke-jr> the key to fixing this IMO is reproducing it right now
 187 2011-09-30 04:00:47 <louigi> k, I sent the bitcoin to my bitmarket.eu account, dunno if it actually arrives there
 188 2011-09-30 04:01:09 <gmaxwell> louigi: I think you have good odds of it arriving.
 189 2011-09-30 04:01:28 <louigi> k guys, shut down program, waiting a couple of minutes
 190 2011-09-30 04:01:30 <gmaxwell> (though you should leave bitcoin running for a few minutes after sending!)
 191 2011-09-30 04:01:33 <gmaxwell> doh.
 192 2011-09-30 04:02:12 <imsaguy> check bitmarket.eu address against bitcoincharts pending transactions
 193 2011-09-30 04:02:12 <gmaxwell> well, it's probably okay.
 194 2011-09-30 04:02:16 <luke-jr> ^
 195 2011-09-30 04:02:27 <luke-jr> fwiw, I didn't see it in #bitcoin-watch
 196 2011-09-30 04:03:20 <luke-jr> louigi: if you want to ensure you only send me the backup, I'll personally guarantee I don't steal it at least :P
 197 2011-09-30 04:03:39 <louigi> okay
 198 2011-09-30 04:03:49 <louigi> not much to steal there anyway
 199 2011-09-30 04:03:52 <luke-jr> heh
 200 2011-09-30 04:03:59 <luke-jr> how big is it, all said and done?
 201 2011-09-30 04:04:43 coderrr has joined
 202 2011-09-30 04:05:12 <louigi> still adding to archive
 203 2011-09-30 04:06:59 <louigi> luke-jr, 518 Mb
 204 2011-09-30 04:08:00 <luke-jr> o.o
 205 2011-09-30 04:08:09 <luke-jr> use this then: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/upload-to-me.php
 206 2011-09-30 04:08:12 <luke-jr> actually
 207 2011-09-30 04:08:16 <luke-jr> 518 MB is too big for that too
 208 2011-09-30 04:08:18 * luke-jr ponders
 209 2011-09-30 04:08:25 <imsaguy> split it
 210 2011-09-30 04:08:29 <luke-jr> louigi:  have an apache installed?
 211 2011-09-30 04:08:39 <louigi> luke-jr, I have a site where to put it, but later on today
 212 2011-09-30 04:08:43 <imsaguy> torrent it
 213 2011-09-30 04:08:43 <luke-jr> hmm
 214 2011-09-30 04:08:46 <louigi> luke-jr, actually yeah
 215 2011-09-30 04:08:51 <louigi> apache is running
 216 2011-09-30 04:09:01 <luke-jr> but you're behind a firewall/NAT
 217 2011-09-30 04:09:03 * luke-jr ponders
 218 2011-09-30 04:09:55 <louigi> luke-jr, I don't think so
 219 2011-09-30 04:09:59 <louigi> or am i
 220 2011-09-30 04:10:44 <luke-jr> louigi: cat yourfile > /dev/tcp/184.4.160.40/8337
 221 2011-09-30 04:11:03 <Diablo-D3> or just use netcat?
 222 2011-09-30 04:11:15 <louigi> guys, atm the internet uplink here is weak
 223 2011-09-30 04:11:29 <louigi> I can later come to my work and upload to my site
 224 2011-09-30 04:12:11 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 226 2011-09-30 04:12:27 <louigi> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
 227 2011-09-30 04:12:28 <louigi> DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
 228 2011-09-30 04:12:28 <louigi> bitcoin in AppInit()
 229 2011-09-30 04:12:36 <louigi> this is what I get when running older client
 230 2011-09-30 04:13:04 <luke-jr> expected
 231 2011-09-30 04:13:48 <luke-jr> louigi: what if you just tar blk0001.dat and blkindex.dat ?
 232 2011-09-30 04:14:06 <louigi> luke-jr, sure
 233 2011-09-30 04:14:39 <luke-jr> also, what compressor are you using? xz is the best these days
 234 2011-09-30 04:14:48 <louigi> luke-jr, hehe, they both together are 600Mb
 235 2011-09-30 04:14:54 <luke-jr> louigi: compressed?
 236 2011-09-30 04:14:55 <louigi> dunno if it will change things much
 237 2011-09-30 04:14:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: not even close
 238 2011-09-30 04:14:58 <Diablo-D3> lrzip is the best
 239 2011-09-30 04:15:54 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: promoting your competition?
 240 2011-09-30 04:16:11 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 241 2011-09-30 04:16:14 <Diablo-D3> you do know I've known con for years, right?
 242 2011-09-30 04:16:27 <Diablo-D3> the only reason he knews bitcoin exists is because I told him about it
 243 2011-09-30 04:16:53 <luke-jr> poor guy
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 253 2011-09-30 04:23:56 <luke-jr> louigi: poke
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 255 2011-09-30 04:24:03 <louigi> luke-jr, yo
 256 2011-09-30 04:24:07 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 257 2011-09-30 04:24:13 <luke-jr> how's it?
 258 2011-09-30 04:24:13 <louigi> so I was saying
 259 2011-09-30 04:24:16 <louigi> I can reinstall, but my linux mentality tells me - help the devs to fix it :)))
 260 2011-09-30 04:24:23 <louigi> 511 Mb
 261 2011-09-30 04:24:29 <louigi> luke-jr, I tell you what - I will send the file later on today
 262 2011-09-30 04:24:35 <louigi> will come here and leave you a link
 263 2011-09-30 04:24:39 <louigi> anyone of the devs can watch
 264 2011-09-30 04:24:43 <louigi> I did read about complaints before on forums but simply restarting did not help
 265 2011-09-30 04:24:48 <louigi> I can reinstall, but my linux mentality tells me - help the devs to fix it :)))
 266 2011-09-30 04:25:02 <luke-jr> I'm so impatient. XD
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 269 2011-09-30 04:30:47 <louigi> me too, tbh. i want my client to work )))
 270 2011-09-30 04:30:50 <louigi> but!
 271 2011-09-30 04:30:54 <louigi> it is early morning here
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 341 2011-09-30 06:33:58 <AlexWaters> so when a pull becomes un-automatically mergable - it is because of conflicts in the commit?
 342 2011-09-30 06:34:09 <AlexWaters> and, this can be remedied by a 'rebase'?
 343 2011-09-30 06:34:21 <luke-jr> …
 344 2011-09-30 06:34:34 <luke-jr> in short, yes
 345 2011-09-30 06:34:54 <phantomcircuit> for the long version send milk and cookies
 346 2011-09-30 06:35:28 <luke-jr> ^
 347 2011-09-30 06:35:28 <AlexWaters> i'm trying to write a general purpose closure warning message. to kill off abandoned pulls, any recommendations?
 348 2011-09-30 06:36:07 lupine_85 has quit (Changing host)
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 350 2011-09-30 06:36:25 <luke-jr> "We're a bunch of slow guys who took too long to look at your code. In the meantime, we made the codebase conflict with it. You're our only hope! Rebase or we'll be forced to go on in ignorance forever!"
 351 2011-09-30 06:36:30 <luke-jr> <.<
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 353 2011-09-30 06:37:05 <AlexWaters> luke-jr: i'm trying to target the pulls that are unpopular, that people don't want merged
 354 2011-09-30 06:37:05 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, lol'd
 355 2011-09-30 06:37:10 <AlexWaters> and they just sit there collecting dust
 356 2011-09-30 06:37:51 <luke-jr> AlexWaters: then "We really don't want your help. Go away. If you want to persist, rewrite it with our new codebase."
 357 2011-09-30 06:37:57 <AlexWaters> lol
 358 2011-09-30 06:38:01 <phantomcircuit> i think you'll find that most of those are simple patches which should have been merged but now require a rebase
 359 2011-09-30 06:38:28 <phantomcircuit> there isn't overwhelming support for them probably because they scratch an itch
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 362 2011-09-30 06:42:53 <AlexWaters> https://gist.github.com/1252874 - if anyone has advice for better wording on my pull closure wording message
 363 2011-09-30 06:43:05 <AlexWaters> warning*
 364 2011-09-30 06:45:13 <AlexWaters> does anyone know if notifications are sent out whenever someone edits a comment on a pull? I hate to be flooding people every time I edit my comments with my OCD
 365 2011-09-30 06:47:27 <luke-jr> I'd s/automatically/without conflicts
 366 2011-09-30 06:47:43 <wumpus> no, notifications are not sent on edits
 367 2011-09-30 06:47:48 <luke-jr> your semicolon should be a comma
 368 2011-09-30 06:47:49 <wumpus> only when you post the message
 369 2011-09-30 06:48:03 <AlexWaters> ok, thanks guys
 370 2011-09-30 06:48:03 <luke-jr> s/to be mergable/to merge cleanly
 371 2011-09-30 06:48:25 <wumpus> and remember that the original message is in the mail, so sometimes people don't see your edits at all :p
 372 2011-09-30 06:49:03 <AlexWaters> yeah, I kind of like that - so that i can tell the participants something without it being very public after editing
 373 2011-09-30 06:49:06 <wumpus> (especiallyl if they reply to the mail)
 374 2011-09-30 06:49:07 <AlexWaters> like, good job etc
 375 2011-09-30 06:49:15 <wumpus> right
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 390 2011-09-30 07:36:10 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r3e527c6af5b0 cgminer/main.c: Retry pools after a delay of 15 seconds if none can be contacted on startup unless a key is pressed.
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 409 2011-09-30 08:08:27 <vegard> gmaxwell: so global, decentralised, micro-payment system seems impossible
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 540 2011-09-30 11:15:11 <grondilu> Is encryption support enabled by default on the bitcoind command line tool?
 541 2011-09-30 11:15:27 <grondilu> (I hopre not)
 542 2011-09-30 11:17:14 louigi has joined
 543 2011-09-30 11:17:36 <louigi> luke-jr, yo
 544 2011-09-30 11:18:01 <sipa> grondilu: no
 545 2011-09-30 11:18:15 <sipa> well, support is enabled, but it isn't used for new wallets by default
 546 2011-09-30 11:18:38 <grondilu> ok
 547 2011-09-30 11:19:01 * grondilu hates having to remember and type passphrases
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 549 2011-09-30 11:20:00 <louigi> luke-jr, i am now uploading the file
 550 2011-09-30 11:20:02 Aexoden has joined
 551 2011-09-30 11:20:08 <louigi> btw, transaction did suceed
 552 2011-09-30 11:20:13 <louigi> succeed
 553 2011-09-30 11:20:56 <grondilu> Is the 'import key from PEM file' in the main branch yet?
 554 2011-09-30 11:21:55 <sipa> no
 555 2011-09-30 11:22:01 <grondilu> also:  are we going to have a manual page someday?
 556 2011-09-30 11:22:14 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 557 2011-09-30 11:22:24 <sipa> if someone writes one :)
 558 2011-09-30 11:23:18 <grondilu> ok, thanks
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 572 2011-09-30 11:55:51 <louigi> luke-jr, www.disc-shelf.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.zip
 573 2011-09-30 11:55:56 <louigi> and anyone interested
 574 2011-09-30 11:56:07 <louigi> this is a zip file of my bitcoin client data
 575 2011-09-30 11:56:16 <louigi> my client stopped updating block count
 576 2011-09-30 11:56:24 <louigi> so if any of the devs are interested to take a look
 577 2011-09-30 11:56:28 <louigi> you are welcome
 578 2011-09-30 11:56:32 <louigi> the zip is 518 Mb
 579 2011-09-30 11:56:43 <louigi> I am on Ubuntu 10.04
 580 2011-09-30 11:56:49 <louigi> version of client 0.40
 581 2011-09-30 11:57:13 <tcatm> louigi: try to delete addr.dat
 582 2011-09-30 11:57:16 <louigi> before that used the stable 0.3.24
 583 2011-09-30 11:57:25 <louigi> tcatm, thanks, will try now
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 592 2011-09-30 12:07:29 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
 593 2011-09-30 12:07:30 <gribble> 147508
 594 2011-09-30 12:08:07 <diki> do you guys know
 595 2011-09-30 12:08:22 <diki> if google charges the SMS verifications they send upon password recovery?
 596 2011-09-30 12:08:34 <diki> i am not from the US but in Europe
 597 2011-09-30 12:08:46 <diki> and while i did get the SMS fast, i dunno if it costed ME something
 598 2011-09-30 12:09:15 <lfm> diki prolly depends on your phone company
 599 2011-09-30 12:12:50 <MacRohard> they're free i think
 600 2011-09-30 12:13:16 <MacRohard> unless you have some ridiculous plan that charges for inbound texts
 601 2011-09-30 12:13:31 <diki> lfm:well they do rip us off but..
 602 2011-09-30 12:13:43 <lfm> or international texts or something rediculous
 603 2011-09-30 12:14:22 <louigi> tcatm, did not help
 604 2011-09-30 12:14:46 <lfm> louigi: how many connections do you have?
 605 2011-09-30 12:14:53 <louigi> lfm, 8
 606 2011-09-30 12:14:54 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf4769e4 / (6 files in 2 dirs):
 607 2011-09-30 12:14:54 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #524 from sipa/signandverif
 608 2011-09-30 12:14:54 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Sign and verify message with bitcoin address - http://git.io/qoE89Q
 609 2011-09-30 12:15:05 <louigi> lfm, always had 8
 610 2011-09-30 12:15:08 <louigi> never more
 611 2011-09-30 12:15:10 <lfm> and what block number do you have?
 612 2011-09-30 12:15:13 <louigi> it always workd fine
 613 2011-09-30 12:15:20 <louigi> 140757
 614 2011-09-30 12:15:32 <louigi> 7000 late )
 615 2011-09-30 12:15:45 <lfm> thats like a month
 616 2011-09-30 12:15:55 <lfm> almos6t 2 months late
 617 2011-09-30 12:16:12 datagutt has joined
 618 2011-09-30 12:16:20 <lfm> ;;bc.blocks
 619 2011-09-30 12:16:21 <gribble> Error: "bc.blocks" is not a valid command.
 620 2011-09-30 12:16:27 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
 621 2011-09-30 12:16:28 <gribble> 147508
 622 2011-09-30 12:17:18 <louigi> lfm, well, I think it did update things in August
 623 2011-09-30 12:17:26 <louigi> I did have my computer freeze
 624 2011-09-30 12:17:47 <louigi> and as far as I understand, if I just delete the dat file, it will redownload all blocks from the start - right?
 625 2011-09-30 12:18:02 <louigi> luke-jr here guessed there could be some error in blocks
 626 2011-09-30 12:18:08 <louigi> so they do not get downloaded anymore
 627 2011-09-30 12:18:21 <louigi> I know this - other ppl also have this problem and it would be nice if it gets figured out
 628 2011-09-30 12:18:21 <lfm> you gotta delete blk0001.dat AND blkindex.dat
 629 2011-09-30 12:18:26 <louigi> yeah
 630 2011-09-30 12:18:38 <louigi> that's a lot to redownload though...
 631 2011-09-30 12:18:40 <louigi> I might try
 632 2011-09-30 12:18:55 <lfm> you can get a restarter file quicker
 633 2011-09-30 12:18:55 <louigi> trying
 634 2011-09-30 12:19:03 <louigi> from the sourceforge?
 635 2011-09-30 12:20:28 <lfm> not sure where the .zip is for the restart data off hand .... looking ....
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 637 2011-09-30 12:29:53 <louigi> lfm, I found some here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
 638 2011-09-30 12:31:48 <louigi> but it might remove my wallet which I do not want...
 639 2011-09-30 12:33:32 <lfm> make a backup then
 640 2011-09-30 12:33:57 <lfm> it should be just the two files tho
 641 2011-09-30 12:35:05 <louigi> lfm, if I make a backup of the wallet
 642 2011-09-30 12:35:09 <louigi> wallet.dat?
 643 2011-09-30 12:35:12 <louigi> something else?
 644 2011-09-30 12:35:12 <lfm> ya
 645 2011-09-30 12:35:22 <louigi> and then after I download and get the block count
 646 2011-09-30 12:35:25 <louigi> I can copy it in?
 647 2011-09-30 12:35:26 <lfm> just need to save wallet.dat
 648 2011-09-30 12:35:30 <louigi> k
 649 2011-09-30 12:35:36 <louigi> will do that
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 651 2011-09-30 12:35:51 <louigi> but the link to the "broken" data files still makes sense
 652 2011-09-30 12:35:56 <lfm> put the wallet back right aftyer you unpack the saved block chain
 653 2011-09-30 12:36:08 <louigi> for you guys to see where the error occurs
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 655 2011-09-30 12:36:15 <louigi> ah, ok
 656 2011-09-30 12:36:29 <lfm> louigi: naw we dont want your broken files, thanks anyway
 657 2011-09-30 12:36:47 <louigi> luke-jr asked for them )
 658 2011-09-30 12:36:58 <lfm> oh ok if he wants them
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 662 2011-09-30 12:46:02 <luke-jr> vegard: only with a public txn log
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 664 2011-09-30 12:47:01 <luke-jr> lfm: n00b
 665 2011-09-30 12:47:13 <luke-jr> lfm: the goal is to FIX the problem, not get him back online :P
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 668 2011-09-30 12:47:44 <lfm> his machine crashed garbling the files. good luck figuring it out.
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 670 2011-09-30 12:48:33 <luke-jr> he said nothing about a crash
 671 2011-09-30 12:48:51 <lfm> <louigi> lfm, well, I think it did update things in August
 672 2011-09-30 12:48:51 <lfm> <louigi> I did have my computer freeze
 673 2011-09-30 12:50:08 <luke-jr> shrug
 674 2011-09-30 12:50:16 <luke-jr> not hard to verify the data works in 0.3.24 still
 675 2011-09-30 12:50:50 <lfm> he was like 7000 blocks behind current so I assumed the two were related
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 708 2011-09-30 13:38:44 <ThomasV> I just noticed that verifymessage works even for addresses that are not in my wallet. Does it lookup for the public key in the blockchain ?
 709 2011-09-30 13:38:56 phungus_ is now known as phungus
 710 2011-09-30 13:38:57 <ThomasV> or does it not need the pubkey?
 711 2011-09-30 13:39:30 <lfm> it just tests the format of the address and the checksum which is part of the address
 712 2011-09-30 13:40:05 <lfm> it doesn't need the pubkey
 713 2011-09-30 13:40:06 <gmaxwell> lfm: he's asking about verify message.
 714 2011-09-30 13:40:19 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the signature includes the address, which is all it needs.
 715 2011-09-30 13:40:34 <ThomasV> oh it's in the signature
 716 2011-09-30 13:40:35 <ThomasV> ty
 717 2011-09-30 13:40:42 <gmaxwell> Well, the public key isn't.
 718 2011-09-30 13:40:48 <gmaxwell> But it's recovered from the signature.
 719 2011-09-30 13:40:55 <gmaxwell> (using the address)
 720 2011-09-30 13:41:39 <ThomasV> so, with signature and address, you can recover a pubkey ?
 721 2011-09-30 13:41:52 <gmaxwell> (this is a property of ecc signatures— given the data and the sig you can recover public keys from them, assuming you have a way of telling if the key is right)
 722 2011-09-30 13:42:19 <gmaxwell> (and for us we can use the address to tell if the key is right, and the address is much smaller than the public key itself)
 723 2011-09-30 13:42:23 <sipa> ThomasV: using the signature and the message, you can recover the pubkey
 724 2011-09-30 13:42:33 <ThomasV> cool
 725 2011-09-30 13:42:40 <sipa> but there may be up to 4 candidate pubkeys for a given signature/message combination
 726 2011-09-30 13:42:40 <ThomasV> I'm learning everyday
 727 2011-09-30 13:42:51 Xunie has quit (Quit: Can God microwave a taco so hot that not even *HE* can eat it without burns?)
 728 2011-09-30 13:42:54 <sipa> so the signature contains two extra bits to tell which it is
 729 2011-09-30 13:43:08 <ThomasV> I see
 730 2011-09-30 13:43:24 <sipa> so only one recovery operation is necessary, and that is compared to the provided address
 731 2011-09-30 13:43:54 <ThomasV> ecdsa is magic!
 732 2011-09-30 13:44:43 <gavinandresen> Is there consensus on what format public keys should be in the RPC interface?  hex?  base58? base64 ?  I wrote an extension to validateaddress to dump the public key for an address...
 733 2011-09-30 13:45:58 <ThomasV> gavinandresen, sipa : thanks for merging #524, great work!
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 736 2011-09-30 13:49:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: the sec standard uses hex for displaying public keys and other data structures
 737 2011-09-30 13:50:31 <gavinandresen> sipa:  cool, thanks.
 738 2011-09-30 13:51:56 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
 739 2011-09-30 13:51:56 <gribble> 147513
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 745 2011-09-30 14:08:24 <luke-jr> 0.3.24 and 0.3.23 can't resume this blockchain either
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 777 2011-09-30 15:27:14 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
 778 2011-09-30 15:27:15 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":4.999,"low":4.6742,"avg":4.820610517,"vwap":4.846178909,"vol":25619,"last":4.95,"buy":4.95,"sell":4.96}}
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 782 2011-09-30 15:32:55 <gavinandresen> Whoever is mining on the testnet:  thanks!
 783 2011-09-30 15:33:21 <hippich> ;;bc,stats
 784 2011-09-30 15:33:21 abragin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 785 2011-09-30 15:33:43 <hippich> ignores me :(
 786 2011-09-30 15:33:54 <edcba> ;;bc,difficulty
 787 2011-09-30 15:33:54 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
 788 2011-09-30 15:33:59 <edcba> ;;bc,help
 789 2011-09-30 15:33:59 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,altprofit, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,exchb, Alias bc,fx, (2 more messages)
 790 2011-09-30 15:34:21 <edcba> ;;bc,help
 791 2011-09-30 15:34:21 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,altprofit, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,exchb, Alias bc,fx, (2 more messages)
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 796 2011-09-30 15:35:48 <hippich> ;;bc,diff
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 798 2011-09-30 15:51:09 <gavinandresen> sending/spending multisig transactions are working on the testnet: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/0000000000cfe382f690777e3b52ea255717122465db6fcfd80efdf2d0080d8b
 799 2011-09-30 15:52:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: nice!
 800 2011-09-30 15:53:43 <gavinandresen> Only issues are with CBitcoinAddress/ExtractAddress... but that's something to tackle for a future release, I think
 801 2011-09-30 15:54:05 brunner has joined
 802 2011-09-30 15:54:09 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: care to clarify the version issue?
 803 2011-09-30 15:54:09 <gavinandresen> (and what to show in listtransactions output )
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 806 2011-09-30 15:54:54 <gavinandresen> Hmm?  what version issue?  multisignature will be a two-stage pull:  first, get them relayed/accepted.  THen in a future release, add full support
 807 2011-09-30 15:55:05 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: is mainline doing 0.4.1 or 0.5 next?
 808 2011-09-30 15:55:09 wpl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 809 2011-09-30 15:55:14 <gavinandresen> oh, THAT version issue.
 810 2011-09-30 15:55:20 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: your ML post said 0.5, but you committed 0.4.1
 811 2011-09-30 15:55:46 <gavinandresen> It'll be 0.5.  But I don't want to bump to 0.5 until we have a release candidate.
 812 2011-09-30 15:55:57 <luke-jr> O.o
 813 2011-09-30 15:56:20 <luke-jr> maybe 0.4.99 in the meantime, like KDE does? :P
 814 2011-09-30 15:56:46 <sipa> that's not unreasonable, i think
 815 2011-09-30 15:56:55 <gavinandresen> Is that how KDE does it?  Release number versioning policy is something I should care more about, but just don't
 816 2011-09-30 15:57:02 wpl has joined
 817 2011-09-30 15:57:13 <luke-jr> well, KDE starts at like .98 for beta, then uses .99 for RCs
 818 2011-09-30 15:57:30 <luke-jr> or something like that
 819 2011-09-30 15:57:40 <luke-jr> maybe it's .8x for betas and .9x for RCs, I forget exactly
 820 2011-09-30 15:58:26 <sipa> luke-jr: and then you'd use 0.4.{1-x} for the backport release?
 821 2011-09-30 15:58:38 <luke-jr> sipa: right
 822 2011-09-30 15:58:57 * luke-jr renames the 'stable' branch to '0.4.x'
 823 2011-09-30 16:00:31 <genjix> major = big changes, minor = compatible changes, revisions = bug fixes
 824 2011-09-30 16:00:55 <phantomcircuit> anybody know how to contact the guy who runs bitcoinity?
 825 2011-09-30 16:00:58 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 826 2011-09-30 16:00:58 <luke-jr> anyhow, why would a block get into mapBlockIndex, not be in mapOrphanBlocks, yet be higher than pindexBest?
 827 2011-09-30 16:01:22 da2ce7 has joined
 828 2011-09-30 16:01:26 <genjix> luke-jr: define higher
 829 2011-09-30 16:01:34 <luke-jr> genjix: pindexBest is the block's prevblock
 830 2011-09-30 16:01:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: various 0.4.x * r7944d8..4405b7 bitcoind-stable/ (288 files in 44 dirs): (964 commits)
 831 2011-09-30 16:01:50 <genjix> that shouldn't ever happen
 832 2011-09-30 16:01:57 <sipa> indeed, sounds like abug
 833 2011-09-30 16:01:59 <luke-jr> genjix: it does with 0.3.24 apparently, at least
 834 2011-09-30 16:02:08 <luke-jr> and no version from 0.3.20 to 0.4 can recover from it
 835 2011-09-30 16:02:16 <luke-jr> the block download just locks up permanently
 836 2011-09-30 16:02:24 <luke-jr> even across restarts
 837 2011-09-30 16:02:38 <genjix> when ProcessBlock is called, it should check in ConnectBlock whether the new work is bigger than the last one + this current difficulty
 838 2011-09-30 16:02:44 <genjix> then call Reorganize
 839 2011-09-30 16:02:58 <luke-jr> genjix: ProcessBlock isn't called again, once it's in mapBlockIndex
 840 2011-09-30 16:03:06 <luke-jr> though it doesn't explain how it got that way originally
 841 2011-09-30 16:03:13 Zarutian has joined
 842 2011-09-30 16:03:19 <genjix> it is
 843 2011-09-30 16:03:22 <luke-jr> http://www.disc-shelf.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.zip is the .bitcoin dir
 844 2011-09-30 16:03:24 <genjix> if it is in mapOrphanBlocks
 845 2011-09-30 16:03:31 <luke-jr> genjix: it isn't, though
 846 2011-09-30 16:03:31 <genjix> then when the intermediary block is found
 847 2011-09-30 16:03:39 <luke-jr> there is no intermediary block either ;P
 848 2011-09-30 16:03:43 <genjix> it recursively processes all the orphan blocks
 849 2011-09-30 16:03:53 <genjix> yeah then it is a bug of some kind
 850 2011-09-30 16:04:40 <luke-jr> anyhow, I'm stumped
 851 2011-09-30 16:04:51 <luke-jr> hopefully someone else with knowledge of these internals can figure it out
 852 2011-09-30 16:04:59 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 853 2011-09-30 16:05:14 <imsaguy> hold the presses, luke-jr is stumped!
 854 2011-09-30 16:06:07 <sipa> is it possible it is added to the block chain db, but not yet connected
 855 2011-09-30 16:06:14 <sipa> and then the client crashed?
 856 2011-09-30 16:07:21 <genjix> sipa: hmmm
 857 2011-09-30 16:07:26 <genjix> let me check
 858 2011-09-30 16:08:20 <genjix> sipa: yes it is a possibility
 859 2011-09-30 16:08:22 <sipa> downloading again won't fix it, because the client considers the block already known (will not respoend to inv)
 860 2011-09-30 16:08:24 <genjix> AddToBlockIndex
 861 2011-09-30 16:08:36 <luke-jr> [08:07:02] <louigi> I did have my computer freeze
 862 2011-09-30 16:08:43 <sipa> and subsequent block downloads will only try to connect to tip, making them all orphan
 863 2011-09-30 16:09:03 <luke-jr> so the solution is to recover somehow I guess
 864 2011-09-30 16:09:39 <sipa> removing that block from the blockdb should suffice then
 865 2011-09-30 16:09:43 <genjix> its tough though since the further checks depend on it being added to the chain
 866 2011-09-30 16:09:57 <luke-jr> sipa: this problem is fairly common-- recovery should be automatic ;p
 867 2011-09-30 16:10:00 <genjix> so you cannot just add it to the chain *after* it's been validated
 868 2011-09-30 16:10:16 <sipa> hmmm it seems not too hard
 869 2011-09-30 16:10:33 <luke-jr> genjix: could you add it with a "not yet processed" flag?
 870 2011-09-30 16:10:37 <sipa> when loading the chain, if the work is >> tip.work, reprocess
 871 2011-09-30 16:10:43 <sipa> >
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 875 2011-09-30 16:12:11 <luke-jr> hmm
 876 2011-09-30 16:12:15 <luke-jr> I think that makes sense
 877 2011-09-30 16:12:30 <luke-jr> there should never be a work higher than the best, right?
 878 2011-09-30 16:12:40 <luke-jr> since the existence of it implies the "best" isn't really the best
 879 2011-09-30 16:12:53 <genjix> i don't think that's ideal
 880 2011-09-30 16:12:58 <genjix> a flag is best
 881 2011-09-30 16:13:11 <luke-jr> is height recorded on blocks in the db?
 882 2011-09-30 16:13:18 <genjix> since there's still other things that happen after adding it to the block chain
 883 2011-09-30 16:13:35 <luke-jr> genjix: after setting it as 'best'?
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 885 2011-09-30 16:13:48 <genjix> so a flag like 'fValidationComplete'
 886 2011-09-30 16:14:06 <genjix> and once the entire ProcessBlock main body is done, that flag gets set on the block
 887 2011-09-30 16:14:10 <phantomcircuit> so sad
 888 2011-09-30 16:14:18 <phantomcircuit> i have to de normalize the intersango database
 889 2011-09-30 16:14:22 <luke-jr> would adding it as an orphan first work?
 890 2011-09-30 16:14:27 <genjix> when loading the chain, blocks without that set are re-processed
 891 2011-09-30 16:14:28 <phantomcircuit> joining orders and limit orders is just too slow
 892 2011-09-30 16:14:42 <phantomcircuit> and the schema was so pretty :(
 893 2011-09-30 16:15:01 <sipa> the real solution is making the adding of the block to the db, and processing it atomic
 894 2011-09-30 16:15:04 <sipa> no?
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 896 2011-09-30 16:15:12 <genjix> yeah
 897 2011-09-30 16:15:30 <sipa> since having a block in the database that has higher work, but isn't in the main chain, is considered an inconsistancy
 898 2011-09-30 16:15:31 <genjix> but not much you can do i suppose if bitcoin freezes halfway
 899 2011-09-30 16:15:42 <sipa> eh, bdb has locking
 900 2011-09-30 16:15:59 <sipa> it should support transactionality
 901 2011-09-30 16:16:21 <gavinandresen> it does
 902 2011-09-30 16:16:54 <luke-jr> I like sipa's solution
 903 2011-09-30 16:16:59 <luke-jr> reprocess blocks higher than best
 904 2011-09-30 16:17:56 <genjix> and you commit at the end, right?
 905 2011-09-30 16:18:00 <genjix> that should work too
 906 2011-09-30 16:18:13 <genjix> probably the most elegant method
 907 2011-09-30 16:18:50 <sipa> not committing before the block is processed is the only solution (note: i haven't checked the code now, all i say is based on assumptions)
 908 2011-09-30 16:19:24 <genjix> well it should be ok afaik, since none of the current info is loaded. it only uses the data in memory
 909 2011-09-30 16:19:39 <luke-jr> sipa: it doesn't solve it, though.
 910 2011-09-30 16:19:45 <genjix> and the only things which are loaded are previous blocks/txs... which should be committed anyway
 911 2011-09-30 16:19:52 <sipa> it won't solve the problem for old clients with corrupted databases
 912 2011-09-30 16:20:12 <sipa> and recovery from almost-impossible situations in general is probably wanted, just for stability
 913 2011-09-30 16:20:19 <luke-jr> we get the same transaction behaviour I think if we just delete blocks higher than <best> at load too
 914 2011-09-30 16:20:34 <sipa> luke-jr: check, that's a lot easier
 915 2011-09-30 16:20:39 <luke-jr> sipa: it's not almost impossible, lots of people have had this issue
 916 2011-09-30 16:20:40 <genjix> might be an idea instead of trying to have catch alls for all situations
 917 2011-09-30 16:20:48 <genjix> instead to have good tools to recover
 918 2011-09-30 16:21:16 <sipa> luke-jr: that also fixes further orphans
 919 2011-09-30 16:22:08 <luke-jr> downside to that is, it might potentially destroy real orphans which may be desired for forensics at some point
 920 2011-09-30 16:22:28 <luke-jr> I suppose instead of deleting, the first octet could be changed to '1' (never happens in real blocks)
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 928 2011-09-30 16:36:12 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: still there?
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 939 2011-09-30 17:02:10 <gavinandresen> no, I was away
 940 2011-09-30 17:03:21 <luke-jr> <luke-jr> gavinandresen: btw, kinda up in the air whether your "DoSprevention" code should be merged to stable or not (it's on the boundary of bugfix and feature); what do you think?
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 942 2011-09-30 17:03:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: never got a reply to that ^
 943 2011-09-30 17:03:47 <gavinandresen> I dunno.  I'm not a huge fan of "stable" before a bitcoin 1.0 release
 944 2011-09-30 17:04:17 <gavinandresen> "Here's a stable version of this beta experimental doo-hickey...." is kind of a mixed message
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 946 2011-09-30 17:05:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: if you don't merge it, and some transitive vulnerablity slips through, your 'stable' nodes will end up getting themselves partitioned from the rest of the network.
 947 2011-09-30 17:05:25 <gmaxwell> e.g. if antiDOS nodes hang up on nodes that forward something only a non-antidos node would forward.
 948 2011-09-30 17:05:29 <luke-jr> or vice-versa :p
 949 2011-09-30 17:05:43 <gmaxwell> I guess I could argue it both ways based on that.
 950 2011-09-30 17:05:52 <gmaxwell> Depending on what nodes I expect to be more popular.
 951 2011-09-30 17:06:02 <luke-jr> even 0.4 is a minority still
 952 2011-09-30 17:06:20 <gmaxwell> E.g. if non-stable nodes are more popular you very much want the antidos code.  If stable nodes are more popular then you could go either way.
 953 2011-09-30 17:06:32 <gmaxwell> (assuming that kind of bug)
 954 2011-09-30 17:06:34 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: but I guess your point is that the real question is "should stable track protocol changes?"
 955 2011-09-30 17:06:52 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: by the way, I've been thinking about a point you made RE: getting old clients to upgrade.  I'm starting to think that planned obsolescence might be a very good idea.
 956 2011-09-30 17:07:18 <gmaxwell> obviously that would need to be done with great care.
 957 2011-09-30 17:07:41 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that defeats the entire point of keeping protocol compatibility
 958 2011-09-30 17:07:52 <luke-jr> right now, at least
 959 2011-09-30 17:08:10 <gmaxwell> It doesn't defeat it, because planned could still have a long horizon.
 960 2011-09-30 17:08:20 <gmaxwell> (or even a way to override)
 961 2011-09-30 17:08:59 <gavinandresen> If I recall correctly, very-very old version of bitcoin will stop working in February.
 962 2011-09-30 17:09:17 <gavinandresen> Yeah:  net.h:        // Version 0.2 obsoletes 20 Feb 2012
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 964 2011-09-30 17:11:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: e.g. I don't know if we'd ever want want to maintain the code for it, but you could require that old nodes be placed behind new nodes which are explicitly ACLed to allow them.  Thus getting them off the public network even if people continue to run them in private.
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 983 2011-09-30 17:49:19 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: re: 2-of-3 being more useful than (a or b)  :   okey doke.  Feel like writing some code and unit tests to support it, and packaging it up into an easy-to-review pull request?
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 989 2011-09-30 18:08:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Okay. I'll need to catch up on what the current multisig patches are, I haven't been following it for a while.
 990 2011-09-30 18:11:07 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/tree/multisig and https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/tree/multisig_testing
 991 2011-09-30 18:11:53 <gavinandresen> And groffer has code, too, not sure what the state of it is:  https://github.com/groffer/bitcoin/tree/escrow
 992 2011-09-30 18:13:29 <genjix> when will multisig be added?
 993 2011-09-30 18:13:40 <genjix> i.e when will we see the first block with it
 994 2011-09-30 18:13:51 <tcatm> yay, git push -f fixed the messed up pull request :)
 995 2011-09-30 18:13:57 <gavinandresen> On testnet?  earlier today....
 996 2011-09-30 18:14:08 <genjix> no main
 997 2011-09-30 18:14:39 <genjix> main chain
 998 2011-09-30 18:14:48 <gavinandresen> On mainnet?  I suppose I could connect to Elgius and submit some test transactions...  (or somebody else could)
 999 2011-09-30 18:15:08 <gavinandresen> tcatm: yay
1000 2011-09-30 18:15:45 <gavinandresen> genjix: why do you ask?
1001 2011-09-30 18:15:55 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: are nonstandard transactions actually working on eligius now?
1002 2011-09-30 18:16:08 <genjix> just curious.
1003 2011-09-30 18:16:10 <gmaxwell> When BlueMatt and I attempted a hash locked txn it wouldn't actually confirm on eligius.
1004 2011-09-30 18:16:21 <tcatm> gavinandresen: so your plan is to remove cryptopp in 0.5?
1005 2011-09-30 18:16:27 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: should be
1006 2011-09-30 18:16:39 <genjix> i.e if i design a tx mem pool, then i also have scope for planning too
1007 2011-09-30 18:16:44 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you probably just had trouble keeping it in Eligius's queue :P
1008 2011-09-30 18:16:48 <gavinandresen> tcatm: if possible.  No real hurry, but I don't see any reason to wait.
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1010 2011-09-30 18:22:44 <da2ce7> ok.
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1012 2011-09-30 18:24:03 <da2ce7> I was hoping for the groffer proposal: https://gist.github.com/dba89537d352d591eb36
1013 2011-09-30 18:24:16 <da2ce7> where we could have (a / b) or (c / d)
1014 2011-09-30 18:25:03 <tcatm> gavinandresen: kk. I'll try to a few more "interesting" unit test cases withint the next days so further work on the internal miner will be easier (I'm going to simplify quite a large chunk of code and finally make bitcoin hash the actual serialized block header).
1015 2011-09-30 18:25:50 WakiMiko has joined
1016 2011-09-30 18:26:02 <da2ce7> btw is groffer on irc, if so what is his/her username?
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1021 2011-09-30 18:44:29 <eT-eB> Does anyone know where to get some testnet BTC?
1022 2011-09-30 18:44:54 <gavinandresen> http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
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1027 2011-09-30 18:51:20 <eT-eB> Thanks gavinandresen
1028 2011-09-30 18:54:42 <genjix> sipa: haha this is classy, "Bitcoin: mining our own business since 2009"
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1031 2011-09-30 18:58:03 <Blitzboom> hahaha
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1036 2011-09-30 19:01:04 <ThomasV> indeed, good one
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1038 2011-09-30 19:01:54 <genjix> more here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46247.20
1039 2011-09-30 19:02:03 <genjix> some of them are really good :)
1040 2011-09-30 19:02:35 <ThomasV> "Bitcoin: getting ourselves rid of bankers since 2009"
1041 2011-09-30 19:05:13 <helo> sters
1042 2011-09-30 19:05:27 <ThomasV> "an idea that's too big to fail" <-- imo the best one
1043 2011-09-30 19:06:43 <Blitzboom> We need new suckers, and we need them NOW.
1044 2011-09-30 19:06:47 <Blitzboom> that’s good too
1045 2011-09-30 19:06:49 <genjix> except that it's not
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1047 2011-09-30 19:07:10 <genjix> one economist i spoke to is worried of bitcoin suffering a deflationary spiral in the future
1048 2011-09-30 19:07:24 <Blitzboom> genjix: lol, i wish!
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1050 2011-09-30 19:07:45 <luke-jr> "suffering"
1051 2011-09-30 19:07:50 <Blitzboom> give me all the deflationary death spiral that’s possible
1052 2011-09-30 19:07:52 <luke-jr> people spending less is a GOOD thing
1053 2011-09-30 19:08:05 <genjix> im not an economist
1054 2011-09-30 19:08:21 <genjix> but this applies to everyone in the bitcoin community, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo
1055 2011-09-30 19:08:43 <genjix> lets not talk hand wave and dismiss ideas far outside our knowledge domain
1056 2011-09-30 19:09:10 <Blitzboom> i’m not dismissing it
1057 2011-09-30 19:09:21 <genjix> "But engineers as a group have a noted, and indeed quantified, tendency to pontificate on things well outside their area of expertise, to the point of actual fallacy."
1058 2011-09-30 19:09:24 <Blitzboom> just saying i would welcome a deflationary spiral as long as i profit from it
1059 2011-09-30 19:09:34 <genjix> i would not
1060 2011-09-30 19:09:51 <luke-jr> genjix: that wiki is obviously ridiculous
1061 2011-09-30 19:09:55 <log0s> the idea of something becoming so valuable it becomes worthless contradicts itself
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1063 2011-09-30 19:10:03 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: because it is not religious?
1064 2011-09-30 19:10:09 <luke-jr> it fails on even the most basic concepts
1065 2011-09-30 19:10:14 <genjix> bitcoin has value because it is a mechanism of trade
1066 2011-09-30 19:10:19 <luke-jr> for example, mathematics is not only science, but it is one of the few /formal/ sciences
1067 2011-09-30 19:10:20 <genjix> not because it is rare
1068 2011-09-30 19:10:24 <Blitzboom> no, bitcoin has value because it has value
1069 2011-09-30 19:10:32 <Blitzboom> it has nothing to do with trade, it’s circular
1070 2011-09-30 19:10:41 <luke-jr> yet that wiki basically outright says mathematics is distinct from science
1071 2011-09-30 19:10:46 <genjix> my spit is rare. doesn't make it valuable.
1072 2011-09-30 19:11:01 <Blitzboom> genjix: bitcoin is valuable because of future projections
1073 2011-09-30 19:11:05 <genjix> luke-jr: it is different.
1074 2011-09-30 19:11:08 <Blitzboom> and because it was valuable in the past
1075 2011-09-30 19:11:15 <luke-jr> genjix: nope
1076 2011-09-30 19:11:17 <ThomasV> my spit is $100/ml
1077 2011-09-30 19:11:25 <genjix> mathematics uses axioms to prove theorems
1078 2011-09-30 19:11:37 <Blitzboom> it doesn’t matter what kind of trade is conducted with it as long as people’s "illusion" of value is maintained
1079 2011-09-30 19:11:53 <genjix> science uses empirical evidence and theories to explain things as best as it can
1080 2011-09-30 19:12:07 <genjix> but nothing is ever proven. difference in methodology
1081 2011-09-30 19:12:12 <luke-jr> genjix: your own cluelessness doesn't make this wiki any more clueful ;)
1082 2011-09-30 19:12:34 <genjix> ipse dixit
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1084 2011-09-30 19:19:10 <genjix> luke-jr: have you seen this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLbTE56HqLE - even if you don't agree with him (and i can understand both ways), it's really interesting for me to understand the other POV
1085 2011-09-30 19:19:20 <genjix> not having had any religious background :)
1086 2011-09-30 19:19:48 <genjix> idk thought you might enjoy that...
1087 2011-09-30 19:19:55 <luke-jr> why would I?
1088 2011-09-30 19:20:16 <genjix> his story is thought provoking and interesting
1089 2011-09-30 19:21:09 <genjix> well he has a strong maths/computing background and describes using mathematical analogies how/why he went from changing his entire belief system.
1090 2011-09-30 19:21:25 <genjix> it works both ways, and is an interesting expose into psychology
1091 2011-09-30 19:22:34 <genjix> starts getting good at part 2.0
1092 2011-09-30 19:24:15 <luke-jr> he didn't change his entire belief system really
1093 2011-09-30 19:24:44 <genjix> how? seems he did.
1094 2011-09-30 19:24:57 <luke-jr> if he did, he would abandon morality
1095 2011-09-30 19:24:58 <luke-jr> entirely
1096 2011-09-30 19:25:18 <genjix> where do you believe morality comes from? yourself?
1097 2011-09-30 19:25:21 <luke-jr> God
1098 2011-09-30 19:25:32 <genjix> so can god decide what is moral and what is not?
1099 2011-09-30 19:25:40 <luke-jr> He defines morality, yes.
1100 2011-09-30 19:25:46 <genjix> can he say murder and rape is moral just because he says so?
1101 2011-09-30 19:25:51 <luke-jr> He could.
1102 2011-09-30 19:25:52 <genjix> or is morality outside god?
1103 2011-09-30 19:26:06 <luke-jr> but then it wouldn't be murder, since murder is defined as unlawful
1104 2011-09-30 19:26:46 <genjix> so what is moral, is simply what god decides is moral?
1105 2011-09-30 19:26:46 <gavinandresen> so speaking of morality... I haven't had any feedback on my DoSorphans patch
1106 2011-09-30 19:27:09 <luke-jr> genjix: moral/good = conforming to God's will
1107 2011-09-30 19:27:52 <genjix> why do people pray then? isn't that trying to change god's will?
1108 2011-09-30 19:27:59 <luke-jr> no
1109 2011-09-30 19:28:11 <luke-jr> prayer changes the person praying
1110 2011-09-30 19:28:12 <genjix> but god has a plan for you.
1111 2011-09-30 19:28:19 <luke-jr> their disposition, etc
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1113 2011-09-30 19:28:36 <genjix> ok so would you pray for a pair of wings?
1114 2011-09-30 19:28:42 <luke-jr> no
1115 2011-09-30 19:28:45 <genjix> or do you moderate your prayer to realistic goals
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1117 2011-09-30 19:29:41 <nathan7> this isn't a place to discuss religion, mkay
1118 2011-09-30 19:29:46 <luke-jr> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm
1119 2011-09-30 19:30:48 <genjix> nathan7: yeah sorry, it's not religion but i find belief systems interesting. how like no belief system is inherently wrong but just different. belief systems can be equally consistent internally.
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1121 2011-09-30 19:30:58 <nathan7> You can spend forever discussing circular and internally inconsistent logic.
1122 2011-09-30 19:31:14 <neofutur> eh interesting offtopic, move it to ##mtgox-chat ;)
1123 2011-09-30 19:31:42 * nathan7 kicks the air threateningly
1124 2011-09-30 19:34:17 <nathan7> (=
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1164 2011-09-30 20:58:01 <genjix> what is the reason/argument for using int64 with bool MoneyRange(value) { 0 <= value && value <= MAX_MONEY; }  versus  using uint64_t and bool MoneyRange(value) { value <= MAX_MONEY; } ?
1165 2011-09-30 20:58:17 <genjix> surely the latter protects against overflow errors much better?
1166 2011-09-30 20:58:35 <genjix> well to the same degree
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1168 2011-09-30 21:00:03 <gmaxwell> genjix: mixing unsigned int in C can lead to surprising bugs due to the implicit type promotion rules.
1169 2011-09-30 21:01:11 <genjix> that works both ways
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1174 2011-09-30 21:04:09 <gmaxwell> Well, the promotion rule only works one way. Emperically on 32bit+ it's the unsigned type that tends to be the guilty one (I think my expirence on 16 bit machines is actually the opposite, and the promotion rule is pretty helpful there) ::shrugs:: ymmv.
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1176 2011-09-30 21:16:17 <lfm> I think the money type is signed to support debts and overdrawn accounts and stuff even tho its not used reall with bitcoin. and as you say, it works to the same degree The compiler might even optimize it internally the way you are asking us to manually.
1177 2011-09-30 21:16:42 <gmaxwell> it almost certantly does.
1178 2011-09-30 21:17:34 <gmaxwell> Usually signed types actually lead to better compiled code anyways— signed overflow is formally undefined (not even implementation defined) and the compiler can optimize accordingly.
1179 2011-09-30 21:21:05 <helo> it is dangerous to use unsigned for monetary values... when you accidentally make it < 0 it just asplode
1180 2011-09-30 21:21:26 <helo> if you write casino games ;)
1181 2011-09-30 21:21:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: clearly we need unlimited integer support in psus
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1183 2011-09-30 21:24:44 <lfm> in psus? power supply units?
1184 2011-09-30 21:25:03 <lfm> so they don't asplode?
1185 2011-09-30 21:25:13 <Diablo-D3> er
1186 2011-09-30 21:25:15 <Diablo-D3> cpus
1187 2011-09-30 21:26:27 <genjix> helo: how comes?
1188 2011-09-30 21:26:44 <lfm> new superpower unit, with unlimited integer support. can power an infinite number of graphics cards!
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1190 2011-09-30 21:27:26 <genjix> helo: if the uint64_t overflows in bitcoin then that's ok since the max is 21 million
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1192 2011-09-30 21:28:18 <lfm> genjix ya, may be a tiny advantage in one place but offset other places.
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1195 2011-09-30 21:30:34 <lfm> genjix: also the unsigned is not as explicit therefore harder to understand that it is doing the underflow test implicitly
1196 2011-09-30 21:31:22 <genjix> so it's not really a big deal either way?
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1198 2011-09-30 21:31:51 <lfm> I am saying the signed code is easier to follow
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1201 2011-09-30 21:33:10 <lfm> just seems like excesive optimization to use the unsigned underflow trick.
1202 2011-09-30 21:35:18 c00w has joined
1203 2011-09-30 21:35:52 <lfm> I admit I might use it myself at times but I hope its only with code I never intend to share
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1223 2011-09-30 22:25:07 <lfm> its kinda odd how it seems the difficulty has hit a wall!
1224 2011-09-30 22:26:06 <JFK911> what wall is that
1225 2011-09-30 22:26:09 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
1226 2011-09-30 22:26:12 <gribble> Current Blocks: 147556 | Current Difficulty: 1689334.4045971 | Next Difficulty At Block: 149183 | Next Difficulty In: 1627 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 11 hours, 11 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1535184.94291375 | Estimated Percent Change: -9.12486368972
1227 2011-09-30 22:26:17 <tcatm> ;;bc,calcd 466391  0.125
1228 2011-09-30 22:26:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 466391 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.125, is 1 second
1229 2011-09-30 22:26:29 <tcatm> hrm, something is broken
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1231 2011-09-30 22:26:55 <lfm> it peaked at 1888786 and has been dropping very slowly since
1232 2011-09-30 22:27:11 <JFK911> oh yeah it costs more than its worth to mine for many
1233 2011-09-30 22:27:18 <tcatm> ;;bc,calcd 466391 1
1234 2011-09-30 22:27:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 466391 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 9 seconds
1235 2011-09-30 22:28:41 <lfm> tcatm: you wanna show fractions of a sec if seconds is the only unit shown?
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1237 2011-09-30 22:29:20 <tcatm> lfm: no, I'm trying to test the internal miner and it looks like it does not find blocks
1238 2011-09-30 22:29:40 <lfm> ah! ok
1239 2011-09-30 22:30:36 <tcatm> what difficulty is first 32bits == 0?
1240 2011-09-30 22:30:46 <lfm> 1.0
1241 2011-09-30 22:31:29 <sipa> 65536/65535
1242 2011-09-30 22:31:30 <lfm> but the internal miner reports hash speed in kh/s and it looks like you'r using the wrong unit in the ;;bc,calcd
1243 2011-09-30 22:31:42 <lfm> or h/s
1244 2011-09-30 22:31:56 <tcatm> oh, that might be the problem ;)
1245 2011-09-30 22:32:05 <tcatm> ;;bc,calcd 466 0.125
1246 2011-09-30 22:32:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 466 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.125, is 19 minutes and 12 seconds
1247 2011-09-30 22:33:33 <lfm> assuming your cpu is an old p4 or something
1248 2011-09-30 22:33:47 <tcatm> core i5
1249 2011-09-30 22:34:36 <lfm> ok, its just one core and the internal miner is severly deoptimized from before then
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1252 2011-09-30 22:37:49 <lfm> thats odd, I get 1253420 h/s for one core on a core2
1253 2011-09-30 22:38:25 <lfm> ;;bc,cacld 1253.420 0.125
1254 2011-09-30 22:38:26 <gribble> Error: "bc,cacld" is not a valid command.
1255 2011-09-30 22:38:37 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 1253.420 0.125
1256 2011-09-30 22:38:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1253.420 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.125, is 7 minutes and 8 seconds
1257 2011-09-30 22:39:23 <tcatm> it refuses to mine at all now :/
1258 2011-09-30 22:39:25 iocor has quit (Client Quit)
1259 2011-09-30 22:40:02 <lfm> want me to try a testnet-in-a-box test too?
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1262 2011-09-30 22:42:21 <tcatm> is github down?
1263 2011-09-30 22:42:38 <tcatm> mhm works again
1264 2011-09-30 22:42:49 <tcatm> 64kbit/s internet can be annoying :)
1265 2011-09-30 22:43:35 <tcatm> so if you could compile bitcoind for testnet-in-a-box can you try current master branch and compare results to https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin/tree/no-cryptopp ?
1266 2011-09-30 22:44:14 <lfm> tesnetinabox works with standard binaries
1267 2011-09-30 22:45:04 <lfm> ill try with 0.4.0 first unless you really need me to get master branch
1268 2011-09-30 22:45:49 <lfm> 0.4.0 is generating with my testnetinabox setup
1269 2011-09-30 22:45:52 <tcatm> 0.4.0 should be fine, too
1270 2011-09-30 22:46:03 <lfm> I just got a block
1271 2011-09-30 22:47:24 <tcatm> ;;bc,cald 2100 0.125
1272 2011-09-30 22:47:24 <gribble> Error: "bc,cald" is not a valid command.
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1274 2011-09-30 22:47:29 <tcatm> ;;bc,calcd 2100 0.125
1275 2011-09-30 22:47:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2100 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.125, is 4 minutes and 15 seconds
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1277 2011-09-30 22:48:45 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 4321.054 0.125
1278 2011-09-30 22:48:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4321.054 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.125, is 2 minutes and 4 seconds
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1280 2011-09-30 22:51:27 <tcatm> I got a block :)
1281 2011-09-30 22:51:33 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1282 2011-09-30 22:51:57 <lfm> ok it seems ok then
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1284 2011-09-30 22:52:46 <tcatm> next test: does it work without alignup<16>? :)
1285 2011-09-30 22:53:11 <lfm> ya I would think it would
1286 2011-09-30 22:53:18 <tcatm> IIRC that was added to allow 4way to work
1287 2011-09-30 22:54:00 <lfm> ya, the see alignments are special
1288 2011-09-30 22:54:04 <lfm> sse
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1290 2011-09-30 22:55:17 <tcatm> IIRC that was added to allow 4way to work
1291 2011-09-30 22:56:11 <tcatm> seems slower without alignup. only 943kh/s
1292 2011-09-30 22:56:18 <lfm> hehe, ok there is still the internal generator, you just cant access it from the gui any more! you guys are so funny sometimes!
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1294 2011-09-30 22:57:04 <tcatm> yep and because it's there we still have to make sure it works :/
1295 2011-09-30 22:57:08 <lfm> tcatm: that may be a core iX "feature"
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1299 2011-09-30 22:58:43 <lfm> whats your clock speed on that core i3? It seems my core2 is faster now, I wonder if it was with all the old sse code and stuff. (I know you dont care at this point ...)
1300 2011-09-30 22:59:26 <tcatm> 2.53Ghz
1301 2011-09-30 22:59:53 <luke-jr> meh
1302 2011-09-30 23:00:02 <luke-jr> scrap the internal miner and embed cgminer
1303 2011-09-30 23:00:04 <luke-jr> :P
1304 2011-09-30 23:00:16 <luke-jr> ./configure --with-cgminer=/path/to/cgminer/code
1305 2011-09-30 23:00:20 <tcatm> cgminer = GPU?
1306 2011-09-30 23:00:25 <luke-jr> cgminer is CPU or GPU
1307 2011-09-30 23:00:31 <lfm> mine is a Q9450 at 2.0ghz
1308 2011-09-30 23:00:56 <lfm> tcatm: ya cgminer does either cpu or gpu
1309 2011-09-30 23:01:20 <tcatm> 2167kh/s with genproclimit = 2
1310 2011-09-30 23:01:56 <tcatm> luke-jr: the internal miner is still great to test all those functions getwork calls
1311 2011-09-30 23:02:38 <lfm>     "hashespersec" : 2439386,
1312 2011-09-30 23:02:41 <lfm>     "genproclimit" : 2,
1313 2011-09-30 23:02:52 <tcatm> now back to 900kh/s. probably some cpu throttling
1314 2011-09-30 23:03:12 <lfm> oh ok
1315 2011-09-30 23:03:45 <lfm> put a bigger cooler on it -> itll go faster?
1316 2011-09-30 23:04:09 <tcatm> probably, but not that easy on a laptop
1317 2011-09-30 23:04:21 <lfm> oh ya ok
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1319 2011-09-30 23:04:48 <tcatm> hrm,  I could shutdown bitcoincharts for a few minutes and mine on that server
1320 2011-09-30 23:05:42 <lfm> naw, those charts are more important than my curiosity
1321 2011-09-30 23:06:12 <tcatm> well, I need to know whether the miner still works or not
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1324 2011-09-30 23:07:23 <lfm> seems it is working.
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1327 2011-09-30 23:08:17 <lfm> hehe if you do "bitcoind setgenerate true 0" it sets generate to false
1328 2011-09-30 23:08:49 <tcatm> yep and if you setgenerate true twice it doesn't mine even though generate is true
1329 2011-09-30 23:10:41 <lfm> ok then its not as smart as I thot
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1344 2011-09-30 23:28:45 <bitanarchy> I have a suggestion for conditional transactions in the block chain. Can this work? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8821.msg552339#msg552339
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1346 2011-09-30 23:30:52 <tcatm> I don't think that will work with the current scripting implementation but I might not have fully understood it.
1347 2011-09-30 23:31:29 <lfm> I dont think so either. It is not clear what are the "conditions" for awarding either A or B.
1348 2011-09-30 23:31:33 <luke-jr> looks like nonsense imo
1349 2011-09-30 23:32:36 <lfm> luke-jr I tend to agree but I was trying to be nice for once
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1351 2011-09-30 23:33:14 <bitanarchy> lfm: could be any readable condition like "superluminous neutrinos are confirmed at certain date"
1352 2011-09-30 23:33:38 <bitanarchy> sure I probably make a mistake... but what is the mistake?
1353 2011-09-30 23:34:11 <lfm> ok, thats sounding more certainly like intenable nonsense. the whole beauty of the bitcoin block chain is that it is self contained in a sense.
1354 2011-09-30 23:35:23 <tcatm> won't work. whatever the condition is it would have to be verifyable by a computer.
1355 2011-09-30 23:35:31 <bitanarchy> lfm: what do you mean with self-contained? By the way... I am not suggesting to implement it in bitcoin... but it could be a seperate experimental currency.
1356 2011-09-30 23:35:42 <lfm> you seem to be adding all sorts of outside "deciders" like a wiki and now some neutrinos.
1357 2011-09-30 23:36:32 <bitanarchy> lfm: yes, I want the community to decide whether a condition used for a transaction is false or true
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1359 2011-09-30 23:37:12 <lfm> with the block chain as it is you can figure out where every bitcoin ever created is now and every where it has ever been. (by location I mean attached to certain bitocin "addresses".
1360 2011-09-30 23:37:21 <tcatm> bitanarchy: try to solve that problem (i.e. prevent cheating and all that) without adding a currency first :)
1361 2011-09-30 23:39:21 <lfm> bitanarchy: it would be an incredible complication of the security and provability if we had to somehow take into account the status of some wiki page or some neutrino
1362 2011-09-30 23:40:27 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: one challenge is that if it has monolithic blocks like bitcoin you'll have problems where I accept 99% of the txn in a block but 1% I reject... and someone else rejects a different 1% and so on...
1363 2011-09-30 23:41:23 <casascius> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Casascius_Bitcoin_POS_system
1364 2011-09-30 23:46:15 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: why do miners reject false transactions right now?
1365 2011-09-30 23:46:56 <bitanarchy> ah, ok because the whole block will be rejected...
1366 2011-09-30 23:49:19 <gmaxwell> Right. Alternatively ask "why do miners not cheat and insert crap transactions that are invalid"   because it makes the whole block invalid.
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