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  10 2011-10-03 00:08:52 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: maybe
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  13 2011-10-03 00:12:16 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: I got a bit better, the tx is recognized, but now the signature is not accepted. I need to find out why
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  15 2011-10-03 00:13:00 <luke-jr> hm
  16 2011-10-03 00:13:20 <MagicalTux> http://pastebin.com/bcS3pipA <- got a tx and the string used to compute the signature there
  17 2011-10-03 00:14:25 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: I presume you're signing the binary data, not the hex encoded?
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  23 2011-10-03 00:16:18 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: I thought the sig was supposed to be everything except for the part where the sig is inserted?
  24 2011-10-03 00:16:34 <MagicalTux> luke-jr: not according to https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
  25 2011-10-03 00:17:36 <MagicalTux> also it says that the part where the signature is inserted is replaced with the out tx
  26 2011-10-03 00:17:44 <MagicalTux> (script only)
  27 2011-10-03 00:17:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: no
  28 2011-10-03 00:17:52 <Diablo-D3> it uses standard sig shit
  29 2011-10-03 00:18:01 <Diablo-D3> fill the sig in as zeros, sig it, then fill the sig in with the sig
  30 2011-10-03 00:18:24 <Diablo-D3> its the standard way of dealing with self-checksumming headers
  31 2011-10-03 00:18:47 <lianj> Diablo-D3: no, you need the previous tx output in there instead of the zeros
  32 2011-10-03 00:19:03 <Diablo-D3> really?
  33 2011-10-03 00:19:04 <Diablo-D3> thats clever
  34 2011-10-03 00:19:08 <Diablo-D3> is that documented?
  35 2011-10-03 00:19:17 <lianj> in code, yes :D
  36 2011-10-03 00:19:22 <Diablo-D3> hah.
  37 2011-10-03 00:19:38 <MagicalTux> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG <- documented there too
  38 2011-10-03 00:19:51 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: anyhow, the thing you signed has 1 block replaced with a different length, and a 2nd block removed at the end
  39 2011-10-03 00:20:46 <lianj> took me two days to figure that out/implement and sent a valid tx on the network ^^
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  41 2011-10-03 00:21:23 <MagicalTux> lianj: maybe you could spare some help/code ? I'm trying to do the same thing, and somehow bitcoind replies "ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 909199af87 VerifySignature failed"
  42 2011-10-03 00:21:47 <MagicalTux> if I could look at intermediate values (such as the string used for signature) it'd help
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  45 2011-10-03 00:27:15 <lianj> MagicalTux: see pm
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  78 2011-10-03 01:15:41 <JFK911> so what are the new bugs in 0.4
  79 2011-10-03 01:16:03 <luke-jr> JFK911: not too many so far
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  83 2011-10-03 01:17:06 <luke-jr> JFK911: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/stable.git/shortlog/refs/heads/0.4.x
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 124 2011-10-03 02:03:49 <shadders> protocol question... if an inv message is empty.  Should it still have a varint count field?  or simply no payload at all...
 125 2011-10-03 02:03:59 <shadders> i.e. if it's being sent as a query...
 126 2011-10-03 02:05:29 <shadders> oh wait... it's not sent as a query..
 127 2011-10-03 02:05:32 <shadders> nvm
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 136 2011-10-03 02:26:12 <phantomcircuit> shadders, you shouldn't be sending it
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 138 2011-10-03 02:27:22 <shadders> yeah I thought it could be sent as an empty message to query to other end's inv.. like getaddr... but I see I was wrong.
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 199 2011-10-03 04:34:44 <devrandom> gmaxwell: I'm not sure that the argument of valid->invalid vs invalid->valid makes sense.  In either case, the clients that did not upgrade will be on the wrong fork until they upgrade.
 200 2011-10-03 04:35:16 <gmaxwell> Not true.
 201 2011-10-03 04:35:52 <gmaxwell> They'll switch to the right fork once it has a longer chain, which— if a super majority of the miners have upgraded in advance— will always be true.
 202 2011-10-03 04:36:44 <gmaxwell> This isn't true for invalid->valid.
 203 2011-10-03 04:36:50 <gmaxwell> (as they'll never move)
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 206 2011-10-03 04:39:15 <AlexWaters> anyone have success with a windows QT build?
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 210 2011-10-03 04:42:40 <devrandom> gmaxwell: the assumption was that someone maliciously mines a tx that doesn't validate using the new rules, but validates under the old rules
 211 2011-10-03 04:42:57 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 212 2011-10-03 04:43:05 <gmaxwell> And the assumption is the miners have upgraded.
 213 2011-10-03 04:43:07 <devrandom> oh, wait
 214 2011-10-03 04:44:23 <devrandom> never mind, both forks are valid for old clients, so they'll get on the longer one
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 218 2011-10-03 04:46:11 <devrandom> gmaxwell: thanks for the handholding
 219 2011-10-03 04:46:28 <gmaxwell> devrandom: No problem. I'm a dingbat too.
 220 2011-10-03 04:48:57 <gmaxwell> There could even be some crazy rule on the upgraded nodes: "New txn will be permitted and the rules will begin being enforced at the first block number after 12345 when the prior 1000 blocks have not had the opcode, prior to that point I will not mine any txn with that opcode"
 221 2011-10-03 04:49:20 <gmaxwell> And then you _intentionally_ inject txn that use the opcode.. and the network will activate only after almost all the miners are smart enough to reject it
 222 2011-10-03 04:49:37 <gmaxwell> and everyone can agree on when it activated (because its an objective fact of the chain) so no splits.
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 224 2011-10-03 04:50:06 <gmaxwell> This would avoid the risk that you don't quite get a super majority of the miners and you end up with old clients on a seperate fork for days at a time.
 225 2011-10-03 04:50:46 <gmaxwell> Actually I think I'll post about that, it's a useful thing to remember.
 226 2011-10-03 04:50:53 <imsaguy> has anyone considered adding a simple 'update available' thing?
 227 2011-10-03 04:51:13 <imsaguy> I think some people are just ignorant that a new version is out
 228 2011-10-03 04:51:28 <Folklore> you run bitcoin now gmax?
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 237 2011-10-03 05:04:41 <devrandom> gmaxwell: maybe it makes sense to include a client version # in mined blocks, so that we can judge the % of power that has upgraded
 238 2011-10-03 05:05:05 <gmaxwell> Version number are meaningless. Any large scale miner is on highly patched up code.
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 240 2011-10-03 05:06:13 <gmaxwell> Also, for this, the fact that aren't mining invalid txn is whats important— not their version number.  E.g. the stock software won't mine these txn already, but some people have modified it to relax the rules and will mine them.
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 242 2011-10-03 05:07:23 <devrandom> malicious people could keep mining invalid txns to delay adoption
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 245 2011-10-03 05:09:43 <gmaxwell> Yep.
 246 2011-10-03 05:09:50 <devrandom> with some kind of version number, which doesn't need to be same as software version, you could say "if 90% of past 1000 blocks have validation version n + 1, activate it"
 247 2011-10-03 05:09:54 <gmaxwell> If they have enough hash power to always get a TXN in during the window.
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 249 2011-10-03 05:10:29 <devrandom> you are basically checking that 90% of hash power has the right validation capability before turning it on
 250 2011-10-03 05:11:29 <gmaxwell> devrandom: but how do you count, e.g. nodes that don't mine any txn? It would be sad if your deployment failed because 10% who mine no txn at all also don't emit the message.
 251 2011-10-03 05:11:31 <imsaguy> devrandom, screw 90, go 75
 252 2011-10-03 05:12:01 <imsaguy> people will uninstall/reininstall/upgrade and solve their problem
 253 2011-10-03 05:12:14 <gmaxwell> Well, it just has to be enough so that it's unlikely that the part that doesn't could outpace the part that does for more than 6 blocks at the transition time.
 254 2011-10-03 05:12:15 <devrandom> gmaxwell: right, it only helps with gauging mining power on board, which is an important metric
 255 2011-10-03 05:13:05 <devrandom> 0.25 ^ 6 = 1 in 4096
 256 2011-10-03 05:13:23 <devrandom> reasonable
 257 2011-10-03 05:14:11 <devrandom> gmaxwell: or wait, I think I don't understand your question
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 261 2011-10-03 05:14:36 <devrandom> the version # would be in the block, not the txn
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 263 2011-10-03 05:14:46 <gmaxwell> devrandom: I think the more important metric is the mining power on whatever side would make a split out of this. E.g. I think we could deploy eval _today_ because only a couple percent of the hashpower is willing to mine txn with nops... if we got one of the top four miners to deploy the patch then the part of the network that would mine a fork wouldn't be big enough to make a six deep split.
 264 2011-10-03 05:14:53 <gmaxwell> devrandom: version numbers are really meaningless.
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 266 2011-10-03 05:15:14 <gmaxwell> No version will mine the conflicting txn, only modified software will.
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 268 2011-10-03 05:15:33 <gmaxwell> I have nodes running .21+patches which won't, luke has nodes with .24 with patches that will.
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 273 2011-10-03 05:15:54 <devrandom> gmaxwell: but the old miners will mine on top of the conflicting txn block, so that's no good
 274 2011-10-03 05:16:11 <shadders> script opcode is 1 byte?
 275 2011-10-03 05:16:25 <gmaxwell> devrandom: You only need to significantly outpace the conflicting miner, not the whole network.
 276 2011-10-03 05:16:26 <devrandom> gmaxwell: you really do need >>50%
 277 2011-10-03 05:16:32 <gmaxwell> No.
 278 2011-10-03 05:17:29 <devrandom> if you deploy eval today and only 10% validate it, 90% of the network will mine on top of a conflicting block and the 10% will be swamped
 279 2011-10-03 05:17:35 <gmaxwell> well, okay, I'll grand you that you'll lose money without it.
 280 2011-10-03 05:18:00 <gmaxwell> devrandom: no the 10% will just move the goalpost further up and try again.
 281 2011-10-03 05:18:18 <devrandom> well, that doesn't count as "deployment" ;)
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 283 2011-10-03 05:19:24 <gmaxwell> Okay, fair, I'm assuming gavin's discouragement patch.
 284 2011-10-03 05:19:24 <devrandom> oh, you are saying deploy but don't recommend use... well, the minoring will lose money on hash power when a conflict arises
 285 2011-10-03 05:19:40 <devrandom> ah, I see
 286 2011-10-03 05:19:50 <devrandom> I don't know much about that one, will read up
 287 2011-10-03 05:19:58 <devrandom> I have to run, talk to you later
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 289 2011-10-03 05:20:49 <gmaxwell> It's pretty simple: If you get a block you don't like— you remember it but don't forward it, and don't mine against it, until you hear that its been extended, then you switch to the extended branch so you don't fall behind.
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 302 2011-10-03 05:46:15 <luke-jr> devrandom: basically, it's collusion
 303 2011-10-03 05:46:35 <luke-jr> devrandom: and yes, unless the colluders get 50% hashpower total, their blocks will mostly be invalid
 304 2011-10-03 05:47:31 <luke-jr> at least I oppose any kind of endorsed 50% attack without very good reason (like gmaxwell's block chain waster filling blocks with bs)
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 413 2011-10-03 08:23:01 <louigi> luke-jr, yo
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 454 2011-10-03 09:21:55 <Diablo-D3>  Occupy Wall Street Protesters Accepting Donations in #Bitcoin; Big Test for the Controversial Virtual Currency - http://bit.ly/pC489i
 455 2011-10-03 09:22:42 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 456 2011-10-03 09:22:51 <AAA_awright> Aren't they kinda the antithesis of Bitcoin? At least, the progressives among them?
 457 2011-10-03 09:22:56 <AAA_awright> I have no clue what they even represnet
 458 2011-10-03 09:23:20 <AAA_awright> At least a few are anarchists, hence the Bitcoin maybe, but not of the peaceful sort
 459 2011-10-03 09:23:39 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: they want wallstreet to shove it up their gold plated asses.
 460 2011-10-03 09:23:45 <Diablo-D3> so Im pretty sure they're our kind of people
 461 2011-10-03 09:24:15 <AAA_awright> End The Fed? Sure. Death to Capitalism... What?
 462 2011-10-03 09:24:32 <Diablo-D3> dude, capitalism is just another name for slavery.
 463 2011-10-03 09:24:55 <Diablo-D3> the only way for true captialism to survive is for government regulation on ALL threats to society.
 464 2011-10-03 09:25:05 <epscy> human soceity is just another name for slavery
 465 2011-10-03 09:25:08 <AAA_awright> Uh what?
 466 2011-10-03 09:25:14 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: you heard me.
 467 2011-10-03 09:25:16 <Diablo-D3> eat the bankers.
 468 2011-10-03 09:25:31 <AAA_awright> Quite the opposite, capitalism implies you have /no/ right to another person's labor or property
 469 2011-10-03 09:25:41 <epscy> Diablo-D3: you should watch "All watched over by machines of loving grace"
 470 2011-10-03 09:25:53 <AAA_awright> That's something of a preresiquite
 471 2011-10-03 09:26:10 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: not at all
 472 2011-10-03 09:26:21 <Diablo-D3> goldman sachs paid a lot of money to redefine what capitalism means
 473 2011-10-03 09:26:34 <AAA_awright> So if you're trying to end slavery in all it's forms, the only way you're headed is to one that's capitalist in some capacity, be it anarchocapitalism, liberalism, etc
 474 2011-10-03 09:26:46 <Diablo-D3> thus, the destruction of any entity that prevents OTHERS from profiting from their labor must be destroyed
 475 2011-10-03 09:26:48 <AAA_awright> ... Well then you're arguing against a by definition argument and you lose
 476 2011-10-03 09:26:50 <Diablo-D3> thus the end of capitalism as it so exists.
 477 2011-10-03 09:26:59 <epscy> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/world/europe/in-greece-barter-networks-surge.html
 478 2011-10-03 09:27:00 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 479 2011-10-03 09:27:04 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: not at all, because this is why the Republicans shall lose
 480 2011-10-03 09:27:08 <epscy> did you guys see that?
 481 2011-10-03 09:27:16 <Diablo-D3> the United States has, and always will, reject outside threats.
 482 2011-10-03 09:27:17 <epscy> why aren't they using bitcoin?
 483 2011-10-03 09:27:25 <Diablo-D3> And we reject the rich.
 484 2011-10-03 09:27:39 <AAA_awright> epscy: You should go into greece and show them
 485 2011-10-03 09:27:58 <epscy> AAA_awright: nah I nominate you
 486 2011-10-03 09:28:04 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: A threat to what? There's not much that'll take the US down except a threat from the inside
 487 2011-10-03 09:28:16 <Diablo-D3> The rich people ARE the threat from the inside
 488 2011-10-03 09:28:21 <Diablo-D3> terrorists that wear suits are still terrorists
 489 2011-10-03 09:28:46 <Diablo-D3> Anyone who gets in the way of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness will get trampled in the stampede.
 490 2011-10-03 09:28:55 <AAA_awright> You need to demonstrate that some people in suits are terrorists
 491 2011-10-03 09:28:56 <Diablo-D3> Rich people are dumb enough to just stand there and get trampled.
 492 2011-10-03 09:29:15 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: do I have to actually show dead bodies, or is just pointing at Goldman Sachs enough?
 493 2011-10-03 09:29:23 <AAA_awright> And even then, that doesn't mean *all* "people in suits" are bad
 494 2011-10-03 09:29:47 <epscy> yes they are
 495 2011-10-03 09:29:49 <Diablo-D3> There is a difference between people in suits, and suits.
 496 2011-10-03 09:29:52 Folklore has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 497 2011-10-03 09:29:56 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: Last time I checked, those people in suits paid for the vast majority of your homes
 498 2011-10-03 09:29:57 <epscy> i wore a suit once
 499 2011-10-03 09:30:05 <epscy> murdered some children that day
 500 2011-10-03 09:30:06 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: oh, no, they havent.
 501 2011-10-03 09:30:20 <AAA_awright> How so?
 502 2011-10-03 09:30:21 <Diablo-D3> infact, they tried to use the law to STEAL most of those homes
 503 2011-10-03 09:30:21 riush has joined
 504 2011-10-03 09:30:25 <Diablo-D3> their plan vastly backfired.
 505 2011-10-03 09:30:30 <AAA_awright> Steal how?
 506 2011-10-03 09:30:51 <AAA_awright> "Hey I see you own your own home free and clear and I want to take it from you"? What?
 507 2011-10-03 09:30:53 <Diablo-D3> by writing up mortgages that did not pass banking law and try to foreclose on the victims
 508 2011-10-03 09:31:10 Folklore has joined
 509 2011-10-03 09:31:11 <Diablo-D3> but now that they have the homes, they cant offload them onto the market, lololol
 510 2011-10-03 09:31:15 <Diablo-D3> morons
 511 2011-10-03 09:31:25 <Diablo-D3> when fencing stolen goods, ALWAYS have a buyer beforehand.
 512 2011-10-03 09:31:25 <AAA_awright> What banking law?
 513 2011-10-03 09:31:37 <AAA_awright> Last I checked, it takes a buyer AND a seller to BOTH agree to a contract
 514 2011-10-03 09:31:48 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: you cannot contract away federal law
 515 2011-10-03 09:32:06 <AAA_awright> Who says federal law is correct?
 516 2011-10-03 09:32:18 <noagendamarket> http://feedtheprotest.com/pig
 517 2011-10-03 09:32:38 <AAA_awright> Just because some other guys in suits in big white houses say something, doesn't make it correct
 518 2011-10-03 09:32:38 <Diablo-D3> Well, seeing as a bank cannot loan money to those who cannot repay it without inviting investigation from the government, Im pretty sure the law is correct
 519 2011-10-03 09:33:02 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: Why would a bank want to give money to people who can't pay it back? That's suicide
 520 2011-10-03 09:33:06 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: BINGO
 521 2011-10-03 09:33:09 <Diablo-D3> and thats what they did.
 522 2011-10-03 09:33:30 <Diablo-D3> they purposely gave loans to people who could not in any way ever pay them back
 523 2011-10-03 09:33:30 <AAA_awright> The bailouts were wrong, they should have gone under, yes, but that doesn't make the loans themselves bad
 524 2011-10-03 09:33:44 <Diablo-D3> yes, the loans violated both federal law and the banks own internal policy
 525 2011-10-03 09:33:54 <AAA_awright> Also, the loans were guarenteed by the federal government at no risk to the banks, so isn't that the federal government's fault?
 526 2011-10-03 09:33:54 <Diablo-D3> you have to make so much money a year to get a mortgage of a certain size
 527 2011-10-03 09:34:08 <Diablo-D3> in some instances banks violated the most basic of laws by writing the wrong numbers on the forms
 528 2011-10-03 09:34:22 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: no
 529 2011-10-03 09:34:31 <Diablo-D3> because fanny and freddie were corrupted by the banks
 530 2011-10-03 09:34:34 <noagendamarket> Yes the gov guaranteed them so it was in the banks interest to write the loans
 531 2011-10-03 09:34:45 <Diablo-D3> noagendamarket: yes, but writing down false numbers IS banking fraud.
 532 2011-10-03 09:34:59 <AAA_awright> There was some fraud going on, sure
 533 2011-10-03 09:35:01 <Diablo-D3> when someone says "I make $25k a year", then you dont write down upwards of $250k.
 534 2011-10-03 09:35:10 <AAA_awright> But then prosecute those individual cases in the courts!
 535 2011-10-03 09:35:14 <noagendamarket> yes it is but with the government involved theres no consequences :)
 536 2011-10-03 09:35:25 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: hundreds of thousands of cases?
 537 2011-10-03 09:35:36 <AAA_awright> Until the banks die at least
 538 2011-10-03 09:35:49 <Diablo-D3> no, you just arrest the executives and fry their asses
 539 2011-10-03 09:35:49 <AAA_awright> But do it in a system of EQUAL justice
 540 2011-10-03 09:35:51 <noagendamarket> Its like the home insulation fiasco we had here
 541 2011-10-03 09:36:00 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: no
 542 2011-10-03 09:36:05 <Diablo-D3> if you are rich, there is no equal justice
 543 2011-10-03 09:36:08 <Diablo-D3> it is always in your favor
 544 2011-10-03 09:36:09 <AAA_awright> Not with a law from congress or lynchings or whatever else you have in mind
 545 2011-10-03 09:36:18 <Diablo-D3> I never said lynchings
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 547 2011-10-03 09:36:42 <AAA_awright> I was going extreme, not to imply you did :p
 548 2011-10-03 09:37:06 <AAA_awright> Are you certain? How many times have big corperations been completely manhandled by the federal government with anti-trust?
 549 2011-10-03 09:37:06 <Diablo-D3> just hand the banks over to FDIC receivership, render any fraudulent contracts null and void, and then freeze the assets of the executives and proceed with terrorism charges
 550 2011-10-03 09:37:20 <Diablo-D3> its a pretty straight forward method
 551 2011-10-03 09:37:34 <AAA_awright> Look if there's really fraud going on do you have so little trust in the courts that they can't see it?
 552 2011-10-03 09:37:52 <Diablo-D3> because the courts have never heard the case, why bring them up?
 553 2011-10-03 09:38:01 <AAA_awright> uh, that a judge couldn't say "Yep, the bank wrote down $200k/yr when you only had $20k/yr"
 554 2011-10-03 09:38:02 <Diablo-D3> the bailouts prevented the case from EVER being heard
 555 2011-10-03 09:38:18 <AAA_awright> So protest the bailouts
 556 2011-10-03 09:38:24 <Diablo-D3> people did
 557 2011-10-03 09:38:26 <AAA_awright> Which I think they are
 558 2011-10-03 09:38:32 <Diablo-D3> congress rushed it through before anyone could say no
 559 2011-10-03 09:38:36 <AAA_awright> But I'm not sure what else they're doing there
 560 2011-10-03 09:38:56 <Diablo-D3> the only way to fix this is, mainly, regulate the banks to death
 561 2011-10-03 09:39:03 <AAA_awright> And we voted a lot of those people out, though not enough
 562 2011-10-03 09:39:20 <Diablo-D3> the banks should still be passed onto FDIC recievership
 563 2011-10-03 09:39:30 <Diablo-D3> they entered into a basically illegal contract with the US Government
 564 2011-10-03 09:40:10 <epscy> you voted them back into congress
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 566 2011-10-03 09:40:16 <AAA_awright> epscy: Who?
 567 2011-10-03 09:40:30 <epscy> the repubs, they control congress now
 568 2011-10-03 09:40:45 SomeoneWeirdAFK is now known as SomeoneWeird
 569 2011-10-03 09:41:07 <Diablo-D3> I didnt personally vote for them, no.
 570 2011-10-03 09:41:22 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: Also, terrorism is already being abused, if we can charge bankers who've never used explosives in their live with terrorism who IS safe from the govt's tyranny?
 571 2011-10-03 09:41:37 <Diablo-D3> what does explosives have to do with it?
 572 2011-10-03 09:41:48 <AAA_awright> Your charge of "terrorism"
 573 2011-10-03 09:41:50 <Diablo-D3> a terrorist intentionally causes terror.
 574 2011-10-03 09:42:02 <AAA_awright> Who's being terrorized?
 575 2011-10-03 09:42:07 <Diablo-D3> the people of this country
 576 2011-10-03 09:42:18 <epscy> the gap between the rich and poor in the west too large
 577 2011-10-03 09:42:22 <AAA_awright> epscy: You say that as if all the republicans are in lock-step about that issue
 578 2011-10-03 09:42:24 <epscy> there has to be a correction
 579 2011-10-03 09:42:31 <AAA_awright> *Republicans
 580 2011-10-03 09:42:36 <epscy> it may be peaceful, it may not be
 581 2011-10-03 09:42:55 <AAA_awright> No, that's just an effect of economic specialization. Poor get richer, rich get very much richer
 582 2011-10-03 09:43:06 <epscy> AAA_awright: after enron you think the repubs would have been all over this really
 583 2011-10-03 09:43:16 <AAA_awright> epscy: That's kinda the whole tea party thing
 584 2011-10-03 09:43:28 <epscy> except it was always their intention to run america like a corporation
 585 2011-10-03 09:43:50 <AAA_awright> I can't figure out of that's a bad thing or a good thing
 586 2011-10-03 09:43:57 <epscy> the banks and american government are just as corrupt as enron
 587 2011-10-03 09:44:09 <AAA_awright> Sure
 588 2011-10-03 09:44:09 <epscy> but at least some enron people went to prison
 589 2011-10-03 09:44:54 <AAA_awright> I'm not sure people should go to prison for non-violent crimes, even theft, but that's another issue
 590 2011-10-03 09:45:15 <epscy> heh
 591 2011-10-03 09:45:18 <AAA_awright> Probably some should
 592 2011-10-03 09:45:31 <epscy> "i am not sure poeple should go to prison for white collar crime"
 593 2011-10-03 09:45:49 <epscy> i think George W Bush agrees with you
 594 2011-10-03 09:45:53 <AAA_awright> That's not the only way to establish justice, especially for the victims
 595 2011-10-03 09:45:57 <epscy> he got scooter libby out
 596 2011-10-03 09:46:15 <epscy> AAA_awright: where does abberant behaivour come from?
 597 2011-10-03 09:46:32 <AAA_awright> If my money is stolen and the thief goes to prison and nothing else... well how does that help me any?
 598 2011-10-03 09:46:40 <AAA_awright> Anyways
 599 2011-10-03 09:46:56 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: I'm still lost on the terrorism thing
 600 2011-10-03 09:47:07 <epscy> stops him stealing from other people
 601 2011-10-03 09:47:14 <AAA_awright> Go look up the "reign of terror" and see what real terrorism is
 602 2011-10-03 09:47:18 kish has joined
 603 2011-10-03 09:47:35 <AAA_awright> Stop watering it down, that's how the Bush adminsitration got away with so much
 604 2011-10-03 09:47:39 pickett has joined
 605 2011-10-03 09:47:48 <AAA_awright> And the Obama administration
 606 2011-10-03 09:47:51 <epscy> the point i was trying to make is that saying people shouldn't go to prison for non violent crimes is basically saying rich people shouldn't go to prison
 607 2011-10-03 09:47:56 <AAA_awright> It's a progressive tactic, control the language
 608 2011-10-03 09:48:26 <noagendamarket> you should be charged if theres  a victim
 609 2011-10-03 09:48:39 <AAA_awright> epscy: There's a difference between robbing a bank and not upholding a contract, it should be delivered justice accordingly
 610 2011-10-03 09:49:02 <epscy> not upholding a contract can be far more devastating
 611 2011-10-03 09:49:14 <AAA_awright> Exactly how, I'm not sure, but saying everyone goes to prison doesn't seem right to me
 612 2011-10-03 09:49:32 <epscy> the amount of human misery brought about by the banks in recent times is astonishing
 613 2011-10-03 09:49:33 <AAA_awright> Not to say you don't do *something*
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 616 2011-10-03 09:50:10 <epscy> take all their money?
 617 2011-10-03 09:50:15 <AAA_awright> Yeah
 618 2011-10-03 09:50:43 <AAA_awright> To resolve a particular case, at least
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 620 2011-10-03 09:52:03 <AAA_awright> Individuals who had nothing to do with the crime can't be touched, so you couldn't end all of GE just because GE Capital had a single fradulant contract written up by a rogue employee
 621 2011-10-03 09:52:18 <epscy> which is fine
 622 2011-10-03 09:52:37 <epscy> except corporations are people according to americans
 623 2011-10-03 09:53:02 <epscy> as someone said recently "i refuse to believe corporations are people until texas executes one"
 624 2011-10-03 09:53:23 <AAA_awright> Well in what manner
 625 2011-10-03 09:53:37 <epscy> corporations are treated better than real american citizens
 626 2011-10-03 09:53:39 <AAA_awright> We can't infringe on the rights of individual employees, including the right to decide to run TV ads
 627 2011-10-03 09:53:55 <AAA_awright> But at the same time, corperations are not individuals, they're groups of them
 628 2011-10-03 09:54:11 <epscy> no of course not, so the alternative is just to let this people do whatever the fuck they want?
 629 2011-10-03 09:54:44 <AAA_awright> A group of people can't do anything more than the sum of the individuals could
 630 2011-10-03 09:54:59 <epscy> no that is completely wrong
 631 2011-10-03 09:55:05 <epscy> hilariously so
 632 2011-10-03 09:55:12 <edcba> indeed
 633 2011-10-03 09:55:19 <epscy> heard of the phrase division of labour?
 634 2011-10-03 09:55:25 <AAA_awright> Even though Walmart employs 2.1 million employees doesn't mean they have some additional power to kill someone, NO ONE of them has the ability to do so
 635 2011-10-03 09:55:56 <epscy> ok i don't know what point you are trying to make now
 636 2011-10-03 09:55:58 <edcba> ok that is completly unrelated
 637 2011-10-03 09:56:01 <epscy> but i have to go
 638 2011-10-03 09:56:12 <AAA_awright> epscy: Not economically, but in right
 639 2011-10-03 09:56:26 <AAA_awright> You can't find a bigger proponent of specialization
 640 2011-10-03 09:57:10 <AAA_awright> epscy: You're seeming to claim that because a group of people get together, they get a magic right to "do whatever the fuck they want"
 641 2011-10-03 09:57:13 <AAA_awright> Which is NOT TRUE
 642 2011-10-03 09:57:18 <edcba> legally it should not but it seems having a lot of money create you a lot of special rights :)
 643 2011-10-03 09:57:27 <AAA_awright> *epscy
 644 2011-10-03 09:57:46 <AAA_awright> ahh too many random lettered 5-character nicknames
 645 2011-10-03 09:57:55 <edcba> use tab key
 646 2011-10-03 09:58:02 <AAA_awright> I did... And got it right
 647 2011-10-03 09:58:09 <AAA_awright> I thought I didn't :p
 648 2011-10-03 09:58:14 <edcba> :)
 649 2011-10-03 09:59:08 <da2ce7> edcba-epscy
 650 2011-10-03 09:59:48 <AAA_awright> What's next, ecdsa?
 651 2011-10-03 09:59:53 <AAA_awright> Oh wait
 652 2011-10-03 10:03:17 <edcba> lol
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 715 2011-10-03 11:33:36 <epscy> http://pastebin.com/WU4vgM5y
 716 2011-10-03 11:33:45 <epscy> just saw that after doing listtransactions
 717 2011-10-03 11:34:02 erus` has joined
 718 2011-10-03 11:34:09 <epscy> is that a credit?
 719 2011-10-03 11:34:14 <epscy> where did it come from?
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 721 2011-10-03 11:35:01 <sipa> have you mined on eligius?
 722 2011-10-03 11:35:16 <epscy> yeah
 723 2011-10-03 11:35:24 <epscy> briefly
 724 2011-10-03 11:35:38 <sipa> after a week of inactivity it pays out whatever credit you have left
 725 2011-10-03 11:35:46 <sipa> and it does payouts directly using generations
 726 2011-10-03 11:36:02 <epscy> so that string can be set to whatever the sender wants it to be?
 727 2011-10-03 11:36:08 <sipa> what string?
 728 2011-10-03 11:36:26 <epscy> the catergory
 729 2011-10-03 11:36:44 <sipa> no, the client assigns it the category generate as it is a generation
 730 2011-10-03 11:36:51 <epscy> oh
 731 2011-10-03 11:37:07 <epscy> when i get payments from deepbit it says recieve
 732 2011-10-03 11:37:19 <sipa> yes, as that is a normal payment and not a generation
 733 2011-10-03 11:37:46 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
 734 2011-10-03 11:38:04 <epscy> ok, not sure i totally understand the differnce, i guess deepbit and elgius just operate differently?
 735 2011-10-03 11:38:28 <sipa> yes
 736 2011-10-03 11:38:42 <epscy> cool
 737 2011-10-03 11:38:48 <epscy> thanks
 738 2011-10-03 11:38:52 <sipa> every block contains one transaction that is special: the generation transaction or coinbase
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 740 2011-10-03 11:39:06 <sipa> it is through this mechanism that new currency is introduced
 741 2011-10-03 11:39:19 dvide has joined
 742 2011-10-03 11:39:44 <sipa> usually, pools use the generation to receive the new coins themselves, and then do payments to the users to pay them for their shares
 743 2011-10-03 11:39:48 <epscy> i didn't think that transaction could be split up
 744 2011-10-03 11:40:10 <sipa> its txin is special, but its txouts are identical to those of other transactions
 745 2011-10-03 11:40:20 <epscy> i see
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 845 2011-10-03 14:39:39 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * f0028e99c164 r151 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (BlockChainTracker.java WorkProxy.java): - block checker sleep to wait so if can be woken up with notify
 846 2011-10-03 14:39:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * c8a96aad04d2 r152 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/ (33 files in 11 dirs):
 847 2011-10-03 14:39:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: Refactored all JsonRpc specific code out of WorkSource, ShareSubmitter and BlockChainTracker.
 848 2011-10-03 14:39:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: bitcoind side of server is now complete abstracted from protocol and transport.
 849 2011-10-03 14:39:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: No testing done yet. Let the mess commence!
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 855 2011-10-03 15:01:17 <luke-jr> AAA_awright_: Capitalism means the capitalists get the money earned by the labour of their employees
 856 2011-10-03 15:01:50 <helo> because employees work for free
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 858 2011-10-03 15:04:16 <gavinandresen> And here I thought Capitalism Meant Putting Big Letters At The Beginning Of Every Word.  Learn something new every day!
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 861 2011-10-03 15:04:34 <noagendamarket> lol
 862 2011-10-03 15:09:06 <luke-jr> helo: the employees certainly don't get 100% of the profits they earn
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 864 2011-10-03 15:10:01 <Graet> lol gavinandresen
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 868 2011-10-03 15:14:37 <gavinandresen> Good morning BlueMatt.  You see the OP_EVAL discussion on the forums?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46538.0
 869 2011-10-03 15:16:12 <helo> luke-jr: i think bitcoin is the only system where the workers get 100% of the profits they earn, and only because management has been automated (so there is no other work to be done). if employees did 100% of the work, they'd get 100% of the profits
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 872 2011-10-03 15:16:51 <luke-jr> helo: management isn't automated.
 873 2011-10-03 15:17:04 <luke-jr> helo: Bitcoin works exactly like cash/check in this area.
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 875 2011-10-03 15:18:52 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I havnt been keeping up with such things recently...been trying to find time to get qt to xcompile but havnt really had that either...Ill go read now
 876 2011-10-03 15:20:26 <helo> luke-jr: bitcoin pays miners, and nobody else. that is only possible because the only work required for bitcoin to function is the work of miners.
 877 2011-10-03 15:21:11 <luke-jr> helo: Bitcoin is not about mining
 878 2011-10-03 15:22:03 <helo> its functionality is very much about mining... its intended utility is not necessarily
 879 2011-10-03 15:24:48 <gmaxwell> helo: bitcoin only pays miners because it was expected that all full nodes would mine for a long time.
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 881 2011-10-03 15:27:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and the idea is that this would be the multisig form used instead of the other existing suggestions?
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 883 2011-10-03 15:28:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... probably in addition to the other existing suggestions.
 884 2011-10-03 15:28:58 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: although all of the use-a-hashed-public-key suggestions would, I think, be subsumed by the generic OP_EVAL hash-the-script solution.
 885 2011-10-03 15:29:11 <BlueMatt> mmm
 886 2011-10-03 15:29:23 <gavinandresen> So groffer's proposal could get rid of all the DUP HASH160... cases.
 887 2011-10-03 15:29:38 <gavinandresen> ... and just do CHECKSIGS on public keys
 888 2011-10-03 15:31:32 <BlueMatt> the problem I have is that it does change the script system for an advantage that imho is maybe not so huge...
 889 2011-10-03 15:32:10 <BlueMatt> or maybe Im just way behind on all the multisig stuff...
 890 2011-10-03 15:33:13 <helo> with pooled mining, the only full node is the pool's "root"?
 891 2011-10-03 15:34:03 <luke-jr> helo: yes, but that's not quite what gmaxwell ment
 892 2011-10-03 15:34:14 <luke-jr> helo: the point is that CPU mining is not profitable
 893 2011-10-03 15:35:08 <gmaxwell> Well, people stopped CPU mining long before it wen't not profitable because only having an expectation of one or two blocks a year seems to have some enormous psychological burden on people. :)
 894 2011-10-03 15:35:19 <helo> right... i was just thinking about how healthy bitcoin would be without the non-mining full nodes
 895 2011-10-03 15:35:28 <helo> with pooled mining being so prevalent... not very
 896 2011-10-03 15:36:15 <gmaxwell> Fortunately we're paid in other ways for running nodes: Bitcoin actually working is payment. :)
 897 2011-10-03 15:36:37 <helo> if every miner was a full node, the non-minig full nodes would not really be crucial
 898 2011-10-03 15:37:36 <gmaxwell> helo: Eh, dunno that I agree with that. Different network and system requirements for a mining-slave and a full node.
 899 2011-10-03 15:38:39 <gmaxwell> e.g. our peer selection requires IP diversity from full nodes.. while mining tends to be concentrated now (due to gpu farms, not pools)
 900 2011-10-03 15:38:49 <helo> hmmm
 901 2011-10-03 15:39:31 <gmaxwell> Running a dozen full nodes at my house wouldn't do the network any real good.
 902 2011-10-03 15:39:40 <gmaxwell> (over running just one)
 903 2011-10-03 15:39:58 <helo> right...
 904 2011-10-03 15:41:15 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: let me get this straight, OP_EVAL's point is to simplify and make really complicated scripts very elegant at the cost of changing the way OP_CHECKSIG works and/or adding a new OP?
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 906 2011-10-03 15:42:35 <BlueMatt> the problem with current multisig stuff is that the addresses get really complicated and so do the scripts/IsStandard() but they dont require changes to script execution?
 907 2011-10-03 15:42:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: well, for me the main point is to let people publish a new kind of bitcoin address that sends funds into a secured/backed up wallet.
 908 2011-10-03 15:43:29 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can you not effectively do that currently, only that those addresses can get really long/complicated
 909 2011-10-03 15:43:35 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 910 2011-10-03 15:43:43 <gavinandresen> Publishing an address that looks like  25VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC   is much better than 25VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC5VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC5VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC5VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC
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 913 2011-10-03 15:44:07 <BlueMatt> ...oops
 914 2011-10-03 15:44:12 <gavinandresen> Better for fees, too-- sender shouldn't have to pay extra just because I'm using some complicated "needs 8 of 10 signatures to spend" scheme....
 915 2011-10-03 15:44:51 topace has joined
 916 2011-10-03 15:45:18 <helo> on another topic, i've been thinking about a bitcoin "signover" sniffer that a business could run on their wifi network to grab, verify, and self-inject payments transactions made by customers
 917 2011-10-03 15:45:20 <gavinandresen> And better for privacy:  sender won't necessarily know what kind of transaction receiver is using, until the receiver spends the coins
 918 2011-10-03 15:46:01 <gmaxwell> It's true— and no one else will while the transaction is sitting idle in the chain.
 919 2011-10-03 15:46:20 <gmaxwell> so if you write a nonce into your scripts then people can't even tell that you're reusing an address until you spend.
 920 2011-10-03 15:46:41 <BlueMatt> I dont think the privacy is much of a big deal, the only case where this becomes worth it (IMHO) is when you have really complicated and long 8/10 or other large number of sig txes.  But IMHO that is such a minor use-case...
 921 2011-10-03 15:46:50 <gavinandresen> (I'm being irresponsible and implementing OP_EVAL to see if there are hidden gotchas...)
 922 2011-10-03 15:47:08 <BlueMatt> the argument for 1/2 2/3 2/2 3/3 is much, much different than 8/9
 923 2011-10-03 15:47:22 <BlueMatt> although it might happen at some point or another...
 924 2011-10-03 15:50:25 <helo> are most transactions only seen by most full nodes when they appear in a block? or do the transactions make it around most of the network before the block including them is solved?
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 928 2011-10-03 15:51:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: not just complicated. If you want all your payments to go to a (A&B)||C account then without this you'd have to give payers _at least_ 88 bytes of base 58.
 929 2011-10-03 15:51:13 <gmaxwell> helo: they make it around.
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 932 2011-10-03 15:52:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and probably more because you'd probably want to encode the (A&&B)||C part, since we probably don't want to keep upgrading the software and adding address types for every crazy scheme people come up with.
 933 2011-10-03 15:53:23 * BlueMatt is still of the opinion that things should be implemented outside of bitcoin as much as possible (ie split bitcoin wallet file and encrypt it in crazy ways to accomplish the same results)
 934 2011-10-03 15:54:20 <gavinandresen> Interoperability of bitcoin addresses is important cross-implementation....
 935 2011-10-03 15:54:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there isn't really any way to do that.
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 938 2011-10-03 15:55:25 <gmaxwell> If I split a key in two so you need A&&B parts, then _someone_ still has to combine them and hold the private key, and if that system has malware then you're screwed.
 939 2011-10-03 15:55:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: split bitcoin privkeys and encrypt them such that to unencrypt them you need x/y keys is completely possible...yea its not as useful but it does acomplish the same results
 940 2011-10-03 15:55:37 <BlueMatt> yep
 941 2011-10-03 15:56:38 <gmaxwell> It also doesn't give you escrow where you don't have trust the escrow house to hold the balance ('any two of A,B,C' txns).
 942 2011-10-03 15:57:08 <BlueMatt> you could do that (aside from the malware case)
 943 2011-10-03 15:57:31 <BlueMatt> I would also argue that the malware case is fairly minor for those people who have the skill/willingness to do multisig anyway
 944 2011-10-03 15:57:38 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 945 2011-10-03 15:58:12 <gavinandresen> there are crypto schemes for splitting an ECDSA private key such that a valid signature can be created without any single holder of part of the key knowing the full private key.  They're just complicated....
 946 2011-10-03 15:58:15 <gmaxwell> s/multisig/bitcoin as of today/ and yet people still care!
 947 2011-10-03 15:58:51 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I didn't think that would be interoperable with our system today.
 948 2011-10-03 15:59:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: should be.  Just need to implement a protocol to talk to all the parties involved to generate the signature.
 949 2011-10-03 15:59:37 <gmaxwell> I also haven't seen any way to do that with thresholding. (e.g. N of M)
 950 2011-10-03 15:59:48 <gavinandresen> ... then any (or all) of the parties could transmit the signed transaction.
 951 2011-10-03 15:59:56 <gmaxwell> hmm.
 952 2011-10-03 16:00:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I was thinking more along the lines of create key securely, split key and give keys to parties such that you need x/y keys to get the original privkey (similar to the way cas handle their class 1 certs today)
 953 2011-10-03 16:00:32 <gavinandresen>  gmaxwell :  I do not claim to know how to do it, but I am told that it is possible
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 956 2011-10-03 16:02:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: that has all these ugly single point of failure trusted steps.
 957 2011-10-03 16:02:56 <gmaxwell> Well, you can make the creation safe easily enough.
 958 2011-10-03 16:03:33 <gavinandresen> In any case, a standard OP_EVAL ScriptPubKey form makes the transition to new transaction types transparent to users.  I could imagine a transaction type that included a "send refunds here" bit of data
 959 2011-10-03 16:04:13 <gavinandresen> ... so even if you can use Threshold Cryptography to do the m-of-n cases I think it'll be useful.
 960 2011-10-03 16:04:27 Litt has joined
 961 2011-10-03 16:04:36 * BlueMatt just doesnt like adding/chaning ops
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 963 2011-10-03 16:04:46 <BlueMatt> s/chaning/changing/
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 966 2011-10-03 16:07:01 <luke-jr> N of N could simply be splitting it up into more parts I think?
 967 2011-10-03 16:07:40 <luke-jr> ie, 16 parts, with each person having a different 8 parts
 968 2011-10-03 16:08:12 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 969 2011-10-03 16:08:16 <luke-jr> as easily as OP_EVAL can be deployed, I think a solution like that would be much better
 970 2011-10-03 16:08:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: on a different note, can a bitcoin-gitian-sigs repo now that its in release-process.txt?
 971 2011-10-03 16:08:28 <luke-jr> just a matter of finding someone who knows how to write the code for it ;)
 972 2011-10-03 16:08:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it could even be part of the same repo, in a clean branch
 973 2011-10-03 16:08:59 <phantomcircuit> does anybody have anything in particular they would like said during a presentation of bitcoin
 974 2011-10-03 16:09:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ???
 975 2011-10-03 16:09:16 KArmitt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 976 2011-10-03 16:09:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: branches don't have to all share the same commit history ;)
 977 2011-10-03 16:09:23 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: where?
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 979 2011-10-03 16:09:29 <phantomcircuit> rich peoplez
 980 2011-10-03 16:09:31 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wtf are you talking about?
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 982 2011-10-03 16:09:52 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you could have a 'gitian-sigs' branch on the existing bitcoin git repo
 983 2011-10-03 16:10:11 <BlueMatt> could, but that would be really, really random
 984 2011-10-03 16:10:15 CaptainDDL has joined
 985 2011-10-03 16:10:20 <BlueMatt> a branch with entirely different contents than master
 986 2011-10-03 16:10:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there's a bug tracker that works like that
 987 2011-10-03 16:10:25 <BlueMatt> ie no code, etc only sigs...
 988 2011-10-03 16:10:32 Daniel0108 has quit (Quit: Bye! Check out #TouchLay)
 989 2011-10-03 16:10:36 KArmitt has quit (Client Quit)
 990 2011-10-03 16:10:44 <BlueMatt> well that just seems wrong...in any case its unrelated
 991 2011-10-03 16:11:18 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 992 2011-10-03 16:11:25 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: its not anonymous, its an experiment and should be considered unstable...
 993 2011-10-03 16:11:57 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, alrighty
 994 2011-10-03 16:12:42 <imsaguy2> How long before it stops being an 'experiment' and starts being 'real' or is it going to be like Google, a perpetual beta?
 995 2011-10-03 16:12:59 pickett has joined
 996 2011-10-03 16:13:22 <BlueMatt> a perpetual beta most likely
 997 2011-10-03 16:13:23 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's not unrelated.
 998 2011-10-03 16:13:50 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: what BlueMatt said if it's rich people who earned their money
 999 2011-10-03 16:13:59 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: if they stole it, tell them the opposite as honestly as you can <.<
1000 2011-10-03 16:14:12 <BlueMatt> heh
1001 2011-10-03 16:14:16 <phantomcircuit> lulz
1002 2011-10-03 16:14:21 <luke-jr> ie, "it's a great investment!" (not false :p)
1003 2011-10-03 16:14:31 <phantomcircuit> i believe they're mostly owners of "real goods" businesses
1004 2011-10-03 16:14:34 <phantomcircuit> http://idle.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2457310&cid=37589130
1005 2011-10-03 16:14:37 <phantomcircuit> that comment is epic
1006 2011-10-03 16:14:37 Daniel0108 has joined
1007 2011-10-03 16:14:40 <luke-jr> hmm
1008 2011-10-03 16:15:07 <luke-jr> unfortunately, Bitcoin is not ready for such businesses yet
1009 2011-10-03 16:15:17 <luke-jr> there is no simple way for real stores to accept Bitcoins yet
1010 2011-10-03 16:15:26 <luke-jr> unless their POS can run a wallet
1011 2011-10-03 16:16:23 <luke-jr> and even then, due to instability they'd want to have it go to MtGox immediately
1012 2011-10-03 16:16:26 <luke-jr> :/
1013 2011-10-03 16:16:37 <imsaguy2> actually, its been pretty stable as of late
1014 2011-10-03 16:16:48 <phantomcircuit> only if you're a pussy
1015 2011-10-03 16:16:49 * phantomcircuit runs
1016 2011-10-03 16:16:50 <imsaguy2> .40 variance or so
1017 2011-10-03 16:16:51 <luke-jr> imsaguy2: it sits at a $5 multiple for a few weeks then drops another $5 :p
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1019 2011-10-03 16:16:59 <phantomcircuit> imsaguy, that's *huge*
1020 2011-10-03 16:17:06 <imsaguy2> phantomcircuit, not if its cyclical
1021 2011-10-03 16:17:13 <imsaguy2> you just time your exchanges out of bitcoin
1022 2011-10-03 16:17:14 <phantomcircuit> that's a pretty big if
1023 2011-10-03 16:17:30 <luke-jr> I'm hoping we break $8 from this NYC nonsense
1024 2011-10-03 16:17:31 <imsaguy2> its no different when doing business in euros when your primary is dollars
1025 2011-10-03 16:17:43 <imsaguy2> maybe not .40, but its there.
1026 2011-10-03 16:17:45 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, what's needed is quoted prices with explicit good times and the ability to naked sell for merchants
1027 2011-10-03 16:17:51 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, which is uh complicated
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1029 2011-10-03 16:18:25 <imsaguy2> luke-jr, I think you'll see a lot of profit taking by the 'regulars' if it hits $8
1030 2011-10-03 16:18:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure, if I can figure out where the "Add repo" button is on github....   or should I start it by forking something?
1031 2011-10-03 16:18:37 <imsaguy2> then the speculators will get out and the price will drop again/more
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1033 2011-10-03 16:19:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: hey, any chance you'd be willing to pull my tags? http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/tags
1034 2011-10-03 16:20:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: you could fork devrandom/bitcoin-release if you want, but there are a few files that will need to be deleted to make the release-process.txt scripts work...
1035 2011-10-03 16:21:14 <luke-jr> so was Gitian invented just for Bitcoin? I noticed the Satoshi client is their flagship user
1036 2011-10-03 16:22:03 <BlueMatt> somewhat
1037 2011-10-03 16:22:43 <BlueMatt> it was created when devrandom was into bitcoin, so bitcoin is the first thing that used it (and still only afaik) but it wasnt created with bitcoin specifically in mind
1038 2011-10-03 16:23:03 <luke-jr> is it possible to use it without Ruby?
1039 2011-10-03 16:23:18 <BlueMatt> not the builder
1040 2011-10-03 16:23:24 <luke-jr> meh
1041 2011-10-03 16:23:38 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you're bluematt on git?
1042 2011-10-03 16:24:08 <BlueMatt> TheBlueMatt
1043 2011-10-03 16:24:43 AStove has joined
1044 2011-10-03 16:25:23 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: go nuts:  https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1045 2011-10-03 16:25:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: just tell them 1 BTC = 25 USD
1046 2011-10-03 16:25:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: tags?
1047 2011-10-03 16:25:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks...g2g bbl
1048 2011-10-03 16:25:54 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, lulz
1049 2011-10-03 16:25:55 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1050 2011-10-03 16:26:35 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I don't know nuthin about pulling git tags.
1051 2011-10-03 16:26:46 <luke-jr> >_<
1052 2011-10-03 16:27:09 <da2ce7> gavinandresen, are we still aiming for the (A&&B)||(C&&D)||...  or just the  (A&&B)||C
1053 2011-10-03 16:27:22 <da2ce7> as I can think of a few good use cases for the more general form.
1054 2011-10-03 16:27:37 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
1055 2011-10-03 16:27:38 <gavinandresen> da2ce7: depends on who "we" is...
1056 2011-10-03 16:27:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: git fetch git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin.git -t
1057 2011-10-03 16:27:55 <da2ce7> ahh
1058 2011-10-03 16:28:01 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: then you can just git push --tags
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1061 2011-10-03 16:28:28 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: mmm.  And will that overwrite the gpg-signed tags of the same name already in the tree?
1062 2011-10-03 16:28:35 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I didn't replace those.
1063 2011-10-03 16:28:40 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 02b20918fdfb r153 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/source/daemonhandler/DaemonHandler.java: missing new class
1064 2011-10-03 16:29:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I just added all the versions that weren't tagged
1065 2011-10-03 16:30:28 <gavinandresen> what are the _notexact and _closest tags?
1066 2011-10-03 16:30:43 marf_away2 has joined
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1068 2011-10-03 16:30:46 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I couldn't find the exact code from the tar.gz in the git history, so I picked the closest matches
1069 2011-10-03 16:30:47 Daniel0108 has quit (Quit: Bye! Check out #TouchLay)
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1072 2011-10-03 16:31:11 <luke-jr> measured by git diff|wc -l
1073 2011-10-03 16:31:19 <luke-jr> err, diff|wc -l
1074 2011-10-03 16:31:29 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: pushed
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1084 2011-10-03 16:51:38 <devrandom> luke-jr: I am waiting for bitcoin to adopt fully before I push it in other projects... makes a stronger case
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1087 2011-10-03 16:52:47 <luke-jr> devrandom: wouldn't it be more efficient to use chroots and intercept all syscalls?
1088 2011-10-03 16:54:24 <sytse> devrandom: to.. 'adopt'?
1089 2011-10-03 16:55:05 marf_away has joined
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1091 2011-10-03 16:55:27 <da2ce7> ok... annother preformance idea:  using a bloom filter for the tracking of 'spent coins' so that clients can quickly check if a particalr address has any unspent coins in the chain.
1092 2011-10-03 16:55:30 <devrandom> sytse: 'adopt' == 'use it for real' ... i.e. have it be one of the main download / update options
1093 2011-10-03 16:55:41 <sytse> oh, adopt -it-
1094 2011-10-03 16:55:42 <sytse> ok
1095 2011-10-03 16:55:53 marf_away has joined
1096 2011-10-03 16:55:55 <da2ce7> *it dosn't complely check, a full check is still needed as a bloom filter gives false positives
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1098 2011-10-03 16:56:24 <da2ce7> but those full checks can be done periodticaly as it very unlikly.
1099 2011-10-03 16:58:52 <devrandom> luke-jr: yes, a chroot option would be nice for people that don't have VTx ... clarify "intercept all syscalls"?
1100 2011-10-03 16:59:18 <luke-jr> devrandom: that would be the way to guarantee deterministic results
1101 2011-10-03 16:59:29 Kolky has joined
1102 2011-10-03 16:59:36 <devrandom> luke-jr: I'm also not sure if the kernel could have an impact on the resulting binary
1103 2011-10-03 16:59:47 <luke-jr> devrandom: not if you're intercepting all syscalls :P\
1104 2011-10-03 17:00:08 <luke-jr> syscalls are how userland talks to kernel
1105 2011-10-03 17:00:12 <devrandom> luke-jr: usually the only thing that affects determinism is the clock... can normally override it or use libfaketime
1106 2011-10-03 17:00:27 <devrandom> right
1107 2011-10-03 17:01:04 <luke-jr> devrandom: what would be ideal would be if you could build on any arch
1108 2011-10-03 17:01:12 <luke-jr> ie, transparent cross-compiling
1109 2011-10-03 17:01:37 <luke-jr> so long as the code doesn't actually look at the system tools' data, they'd never notice ;)
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1112 2011-10-03 17:03:20 <devrandom> yeah that sounds desirable
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1114 2011-10-03 17:03:38 <nathan7> RANDOMNESS
1115 2011-10-03 17:03:42 * nathan7 kicks devrandom in the face
1116 2011-10-03 17:03:45 <nathan7> whoops
1117 2011-10-03 17:04:00 * nathan7 takes his medication
1118 2011-10-03 17:04:01 <luke-jr> heh
1119 2011-10-03 17:04:10 * devrandom randomizes nathan7's brain
1120 2011-10-03 17:04:15 <luke-jr> it is kinda ironic devrandom writes gitian which opposes randomness
1121 2011-10-03 17:04:16 <luke-jr>  :P
1122 2011-10-03 17:04:40 <devrandom> it's very zen
1123 2011-10-03 17:06:08 <devrandom> luke-jr: probably not easy to auto-cross-compile since some package build processes create helper binaries during the build process, which they need to run under the current arch
1124 2011-10-03 17:06:52 <cosurgi> what's with these blocks now?
1125 2011-10-03 17:06:57 marf_away has joined
1126 2011-10-03 17:06:57 <cosurgi> 2 hours and only 2 blocks??
1127 2011-10-03 17:07:10 BlueMatt has joined
1128 2011-10-03 17:07:15 <luke-jr> devrandom: that's a bug in the program build system then
1129 2011-10-03 17:07:56 <AlexWaters> does anyone know if the QT windows build instructions have been setup in gitian to build windows binaries of bitcoin.exe with QT?
1130 2011-10-03 17:08:26 <BlueMatt> they have not
1131 2011-10-03 17:08:39 <sytse> whoa.
1132 2011-10-03 17:08:42 * sytse throws up
1133 2011-10-03 17:08:42 * BlueMatt hasnt had the time yet...
1134 2011-10-03 17:08:46 <nathan7> Oh hey, a new opperson.
1135 2011-10-03 17:08:52 <AlexWaters> BlueMatt: np, I was just checking
1136 2011-10-03 17:08:59 * nathan7 holds his hand out towards BlueMatt 
1137 2011-10-03 17:09:04 <nathan7> greetings, human
1138 2011-10-03 17:09:09 <BlueMatt> ...?
1139 2011-10-03 17:09:13 <sytse> so non-ops are non-human?
1140 2011-10-03 17:09:23 <sytse> hmm, makes me wonder what I am.
1141 2011-10-03 17:10:19 <luke-jr> devrandom: anyhow, any hope for a Python port? or something that doesn't need Ruby? XD
1142 2011-10-03 17:10:41 <nathan7> no
1143 2011-10-03 17:10:46 <nathan7> most people here are human
1144 2011-10-03 17:10:49 clr_ has joined
1145 2011-10-03 17:10:58 <nathan7> I made the assumption that BlueMatt is human too
1146 2011-10-03 17:11:10 <nathan7> since that holds up for most other people here
1147 2011-10-03 17:11:23 * BlueMatt is actually a turing-test passing robot
1148 2011-10-03 17:11:38 <luke-jr> we have one of those in #anime too
1149 2011-10-03 17:11:44 <nathan7> Oic
1150 2011-10-03 17:11:55 * nathan7 shakes hands with his fellow robot
1151 2011-10-03 17:12:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: various minfee_modes * r384bc9..4e67a6 bitcoind-personal/ (23 files in 5 dirs): (21 commits)
1152 2011-10-03 17:12:46 <luke-jr> rebases always look weird
1153 2011-10-03 17:13:30 <luke-jr> for review (just a minor internal API change, to work toward a user-configurable fee policy): http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/384bc91d8ef2e9adccfac0b97b457209913caff4
1154 2011-10-03 17:14:27 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1155 2011-10-03 17:17:29 * nathan7 shakes hands with CIA-101 too
1156 2011-10-03 17:17:35 <nathan7> you're a little less sentient
1157 2011-10-03 17:17:43 <nathan7> but you're still a fellow robot
1158 2011-10-03 17:17:49 * nathan7 pats the tiny CIA-101 on the head
1159 2011-10-03 17:17:54 <devrandom> luke-jr: you don't like ruby?  python would be good if I get the time.  did it in ruby because I'm faster in it.
1160 2011-10-03 17:18:20 <luke-jr> devrandom: I don't have Ruby installed anywhere, and I prefer to keep it that way.
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1163 2011-10-03 17:19:04 <nathan7> Ruby, I don't like ruby particularly
1164 2011-10-03 17:19:09 localhost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1165 2011-10-03 17:19:17 <nathan7> but the exchange I am working on will be written in it
1166 2011-10-03 17:19:20 * luke-jr has heard similar sentiments from other random people
1167 2011-10-03 17:19:32 <nathan7> I'm a language purist
1168 2011-10-03 17:19:48 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ok, now we have https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs to push sigs to...now as soon as gavin gets gitian-capable or sipa builds 0.4.0 we can do a real 0.4.0 gitian release...
1169 2011-10-03 17:19:50 <nathan7> And Ruby is just this... blend
1170 2011-10-03 17:20:06 <luke-jr> tbh, I've never even looked at Ruby code
1171 2011-10-03 17:20:54 <luke-jr> I'm perfectly fine with C and Perl, and can tolerate Python because of its ubiquity.
1172 2011-10-03 17:21:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I should be gitian-capable by the end of the week
1173 2011-10-03 17:21:07 Daniel0108 is now known as EvilDaniel0108
1174 2011-10-03 17:21:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nice, cant wait
1175 2011-10-03 17:21:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r3504801 / src/test/util_tests.cpp : Declare integer constant LL - http://git.io/iaxEkA
1176 2011-10-03 17:21:21 <devrandom> BlueMatt: great
1177 2011-10-03 17:21:22 TheDaniel0108 is now known as Daniel0108
1178 2011-10-03 17:21:28 <devrandom> gavinandresen: great
1179 2011-10-03 17:21:31 <devrandom> :)
1180 2011-10-03 17:21:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: thoughts on http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/384bc91d8ef2e9adccfac0b97b457209913caff4
1181 2011-10-03 17:22:37 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: busy thinking about other stuff right now...
1182 2011-10-03 17:22:39 <devrandom> luke-jr: Ruby is about as convenient and concise as Perl, but more object oriented
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1185 2011-10-03 17:22:55 <luke-jr> devrandom: Perl is very pure class-based OO
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1200 2011-10-03 17:37:08 <nathan7> dun dun
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1207 2011-10-03 17:47:51 <hippich> devrandom, regarding perl and OO - check out Moose when you will get a chance..
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1218 2011-10-03 17:54:04 <luke-jr> hippich: please, real Perl OO is fine :p
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1220 2011-10-03 17:54:33 <hippich> it is. but with Moose you can create something crazy and easy :)
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1254 2011-10-03 18:23:48 <devrandom> hippich: will look
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1258 2011-10-03 18:28:01 <phantomcircuit> is there anything weird about block 144591 ?
1259 2011-10-03 18:29:22 <phungus> werdup for Moose OO
1260 2011-10-03 18:29:26 <phungus> Perl OO
1261 2011-10-03 18:29:39 <phungus> automatic accessors and the like
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1272 2011-10-03 18:54:09 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: looks pretty normal
1273 2011-10-03 18:54:37 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, k
1274 2011-10-03 18:54:41 <phantomcircuit> libbitcoin fails on it
1275 2011-10-03 18:54:46 <phantomcircuit> still more work to do :|
1276 2011-10-03 18:54:52 <tcatm> where does it fail?
1277 2011-10-03 18:54:52 casascius has joined
1278 2011-10-03 18:55:21 <tcatm> I haven't checked the scripts (just assumed that bitcoind did that already)
1279 2011-10-03 18:55:57 jackmcbarn has joined
1280 2011-10-03 18:57:15 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, i cant tell i dont know enough about the layout of libbitcoin and i dont have the time to learn now
1281 2011-10-03 18:57:20 <phantomcircuit> i messaged genjix about it
1282 2011-10-03 18:57:30 <phantomcircuit> it might just be from me screwing around
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1289 2011-10-03 19:01:21 <CIA-101> bitcoin: various qmake_system_crypto++ * r536fdf..8f1631 bitcoind-personal/ (9 files in 5 dirs): (6 commits)
1290 2011-10-03 19:01:22 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bugfix_qt_uri_amount_parser * r74ab12bd57db bitcoind-personal/src/qt/guiutil.cpp: Fix URI amount parser
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1302 2011-10-03 19:12:25 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.3.19-backport-fee-reduction * r4980404ff894 bitcoind-personal/main.h: Backport reduced base fee of 0.0005 BTC
1303 2011-10-03 19:12:26 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.3.22-backport-fee-reduction * ree6d95577363 bitcoind-personal/src/main.h: Backport reduced fees of 0.0005 BTC (send/accept) and 0.0001 BTC (relay)
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1312 2011-10-03 19:26:47 <CIA-101> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r45e184b / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Allow LP URL to change - http://git.io/oaNXxQ
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1329 2011-10-03 20:11:13 <luke-jr> gosh, rebasing my code to 0.4 is a chore
1330 2011-10-03 20:11:20 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr original_txn_time * r76d8bdbd87f4 bitcoind-personal/src/main.cpp: Show a sent transaction's original time, rather than when it got included in a block
1331 2011-10-03 20:11:42 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr signal_blk_notify * rf97443eb5af8 bitcoind-personal/src/init.cpp: Document -blknotifypidfile option in --help
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1343 2011-10-03 20:24:11 <luke-jr> shadders: does PoolServerJ use SIGUSR1?
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1361 2011-10-03 21:01:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr coinbaser * rc99350e69ff7 bitcoind-personal/src/ (bitcoinrpc.cpp main.cpp main.h): Merge branch 'coinbaser' into coinbaser
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1372 2011-10-03 21:11:16 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr txinfo * r81ca492a2fa1 bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h rpc.cpp): collect more info on tx pooling and block finding for getinfo
1373 2011-10-03 21:11:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr txinfo * rae02f2524efb bitcoind-personal/src/rpc.cpp: Add block_hash and block_index to transaction info
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1383 2011-10-03 21:21:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr force_send * re8c956dd1f9e bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h noui.h rpc.cpp wallet.cpp wallet.h): don't automatically include fees via JSON-RPC, and allow forcing them to send with under the 'minimum'
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1513 2011-10-03 23:39:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr coinbaser * r3c54a7b92380 bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h rpc.cpp): Merge commit '96f9693' into coinbaser
1514 2011-10-03 23:39:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr minfee_modes * rd8761995dabc bitcoind-personal/src/ (main.cpp main.h wallet.cpp): GetMinFee takes a mode parameter (GMF_{BLOCK,RELAY,SEND}) instead of fForRelay
1515 2011-10-03 23:39:24 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr coinbaser * ra1efc8cb1014 bitcoind-personal/src/init.cpp: Document -coinbaser option in --help
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