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  15 2011-10-07 00:26:18 <diki> I just looked up this blockexplorer called pi.uk and noticed that it actually shows the ip of the founder
  16 2011-10-07 00:27:03 <diki> my question is: if a proxy was used, would the block(if found by you) would get anounced through the proxy?
  17 2011-10-07 00:27:17 <diki> i.e i mean the intergrated proxy support in bitcoin
  18 2011-10-07 00:27:49 <terrytibbs> all network connections get piped through the proxy, so i would assume the answer is yes
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  22 2011-10-07 00:36:13 <luke-jr> ;;bc,diff
  23 2011-10-07 00:36:14 <gribble> 1689334.4045971
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  31 2011-10-07 01:06:07 <alexwaters> so when I build bitcoin QT in windows with qt creator, where does it put the bitcoin.exe? I can't find it after following the instructions from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/readme-qt.rst
  32 2011-10-07 01:08:01 kish is now known as AmandaKnox
  33 2011-10-07 01:10:32 <alexwaters> nvm - found it. but now i'm getting a version error about 32/64 bit
  34 2011-10-07 01:11:46 Ukto has joined
  35 2011-10-07 01:13:13 <Ukto> so I have bitcoind running, and set paytxfee=0    and verified this.  i create an address, assigned it an account name, sent it 1 btc..  7 confirms later, i try to use sendfrom() rpc, and get 500 internal server failure.  after looking into the debug logs it says a transaction fee is required
  36 2011-10-07 01:13:28 <Ukto> am i missing something ?
  37 2011-10-07 01:14:20 <iGlad> using 0.4?
  38 2011-10-07 01:15:26 * Ukto looks at topic
  39 2011-10-07 01:15:29 <Ukto> when the hell did that come out
  40 2011-10-07 01:15:46 <Ukto> sigh
  41 2011-10-07 01:15:50 <iGlad> i dont know but it sounds like it has a bug that makes people pay tx fees
  42 2011-10-07 01:15:56 <iGlad> guess who won't be updating
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  44 2011-10-07 01:16:24 <Ukto> k, changing to 4.0
  45 2011-10-07 01:16:33 <Ukto> but it should go, right?
  46 2011-10-07 01:16:36 <Ukto> i'm not crazy?
  47 2011-10-07 01:16:45 <Ukto> it just wont be preffered
  48 2011-10-07 01:16:58 <iGlad> i never got a tx fee required using 0.3.24
  49 2011-10-07 01:17:20 <Ukto> i was using 3.24 daemon
  50 2011-10-07 01:17:42 <iGlad> maybe you hit an edge case then
  51 2011-10-07 01:17:50 <Ukto> either way, updating first
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  53 2011-10-07 01:18:18 <gmaxwell> Ukto: there isn't any change in that software in .4
  54 2011-10-07 01:18:19 <Two1One2> Ukto: let the coins sit in the wallet for a while, the fee is computed from (sum*age)/size
  55 2011-10-07 01:18:48 <iGlad> nice thankyou for clarifying - all my coins are old
  56 2011-10-07 01:18:56 <Ukto> but shouldnt i be able to send regardless?
  57 2011-10-07 01:19:01 <Ukto> 7 confs
  58 2011-10-07 01:19:03 <gmaxwell> The reason for this is because your trying to create a txn with very low priority, it will look like a dos attack to the network. If you let the input age a bit (144 blocks per bitcoin of input) it won't want a fee.
  59 2011-10-07 01:19:16 <Ukto> hm
  60 2011-10-07 01:19:26 <gmaxwell> Ukto: no you should not, your txn will get stuck and your bitcoins will be lost without hexediting your wallet.
  61 2011-10-07 01:19:37 <gmaxwell> The fee it wants, btw is 0.0005 btc.
  62 2011-10-07 01:19:50 <luke-jr> Ukto: there is no way to force a lower tx fee with bitcoind
  63 2011-10-07 01:27:59 <Ukto> so to be able to send, i have to set paytxfee = 1
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  65 2011-10-07 01:28:04 <Ukto> no matter what
  66 2011-10-07 01:28:05 <Ukto> rather
  67 2011-10-07 01:28:14 <Ukto> if there are lots of sends
  68 2011-10-07 01:28:21 <gmaxwell> No.
  69 2011-10-07 01:28:31 <Ukto> sendfrom doesnt have a fee option that i saw
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  71 2011-10-07 01:28:36 <gmaxwell> The reason you're being rejected is because you don't have the funds to pay any fee.
  72 2011-10-07 01:28:42 <Ukto> ahhh'
  73 2011-10-07 01:29:01 <gmaxwell> If you actually had enough balance to pay a fee it just would have done it without asking. (The GUI asks, but the RPC interface doesn't have a way to do that)
  74 2011-10-07 01:29:14 <Ukto>  even if paytxfee = 0 ?
  75 2011-10-07 01:29:17 <gmaxwell> Yes.
  76 2011-10-07 01:29:23 <Ukto> whats the point of paytxfee ?
  77 2011-10-07 01:29:31 <gmaxwell> Once you have a wallet with many aged inputs you'll probably never pay a fee.
  78 2011-10-07 01:29:31 <Ukto> just gui ?
  79 2011-10-07 01:29:45 <gmaxwell> To set a fee that always gets paid in order to give your transactions higher priority.
  80 2011-10-07 01:29:53 <Ukto> alright
  81 2011-10-07 01:29:56 <Ukto> that makes a ton more sense
  82 2011-10-07 01:30:25 <Ukto> however, when using sendfrom, each 'account' has to have enough aged inputs
  83 2011-10-07 01:30:25 <Ukto> right?
  84 2011-10-07 01:30:38 <gmaxwell> But all this means that if you're tracking your balance externally you may end up with small difference between what bitcoin thinks and what your software things.
  85 2011-10-07 01:30:41 <gmaxwell> Ukto: No.
  86 2011-10-07 01:30:56 <gmaxwell> Sendfrom does _not_ do what you're thinking its doing.
  87 2011-10-07 01:31:24 <gmaxwell> Sendfrom is just bookkeeping. It doesn't have anything to do with the inputs, which all still go into a big bucket. Thats why it's perfectly possible to draw an account negative.
  88 2011-10-07 01:31:27 <Ukto> sorry, 2 days no sleep heh
  89 2011-10-07 01:31:53 <Ukto> ahhhhhhhh
  90 2011-10-07 01:31:55 <Ukto> your right
  91 2011-10-07 01:31:58 <Ukto> i didnt think about it that way
  92 2011-10-07 01:32:12 <Ukto> coffee doesnt help after a certin point :P
  93 2011-10-07 01:32:18 <gmaxwell> Sleep does!
  94 2011-10-07 01:32:21 <Ukto> hehe
  95 2011-10-07 01:32:31 <Ukto> gmaxwell: msgs btw
  96 2011-10-07 01:32:32 <Ukto> :)
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 102 2011-10-07 01:38:28 <theymos> OP_EVAL looks very promising. It looks like Gavin wants to fast-track it, too.
 103 2011-10-07 01:39:02 <gmaxwell> <3 OP_EVAL
 104 2011-10-07 01:39:22 <gmaxwell> Also <3 key recovery and I hope we get that too. :)
 105 2011-10-07 01:41:42 <theymos> What's key recovery?
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 108 2011-10-07 01:47:37 <gmaxwell> theymos: makes the transactions spending payments to addresses much smaller.
 109 2011-10-07 01:47:47 <gmaxwell> Because you recover the public key from the signature.
 110 2011-10-07 01:48:20 <theymos> Ah, interesting.
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 114 2011-10-07 01:53:32 <alexwaters> can anyone give me an approximation on the lines of code in bitcoin core?
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 116 2011-10-07 01:56:07 <theymos> About 25,000 in 0.3.19.
 117 2011-10-07 01:56:23 <Two1One2> alexwaters: 27076 lines total
 118 2011-10-07 01:59:12 <alexwaters> thank you
 119 2011-10-07 02:01:11 <gmaxwell> It would be useful to break that into GUI and all else... but the source isn't seperated enough to make that easy.
 120 2011-10-07 02:01:17 <gmaxwell> A lot of the bitcoin code is gui though.
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 206 2011-10-07 05:19:59 <wereHamster> does bitcoind support ipv6?
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 226 2011-10-07 05:52:27 <CIA-101> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r478623c / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Improve FPS timing to handle slow devices better - http://git.io/YICpUw
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 259 2011-10-07 07:03:04 <mizerydearia> heya mmoya.  Check out #bitcoin-es
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 282 2011-10-07 07:30:48 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
 283 2011-10-07 07:30:49 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -8.30056399422 % based on data since last change | -9.1641614174 % based on data for last three days
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 286 2011-10-07 07:41:25 <mizerydearia> Would anyone else here be interested to help bootstrap foreign bitcoin channels with some users?  See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47057
 287 2011-10-07 07:41:39 <nathan7> Hi mizerydearia
 288 2011-10-07 07:41:42 <mizerydearia> hiya
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 304 2011-10-07 08:01:50 <CIA-101> bitcoin: jedi95 * r30f838629811 Phoenix-Miner/: Screwed up with Git big time, had to redo repo.
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 306 2011-10-07 08:03:31 <Diablo-D3> jesus christ.
 307 2011-10-07 08:03:35 <Diablo-D3> seriously?
 308 2011-10-07 08:03:40 <Diablo-D3> how the fuck do people fuck up with git
 309 2011-10-07 08:03:43 <Diablo-D3> its almost bullet proof
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 324 2011-10-07 08:14:58 <Ycros> bulletproof, luls.
 325 2011-10-07 08:15:22 <Ycros> it'd help if it had a sane UI.
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 418 2011-10-07 10:46:45 <Diablo-D3> heh
 419 2011-10-07 10:46:47 <Diablo-D3> hn is down
 420 2011-10-07 10:46:53 <Diablo-D3> but I cant start a hn thread to say hn is down
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 422 2011-10-07 10:52:30 <nathan7> lol
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 538 2011-10-07 13:15:36 <iGlad> is this our satoshi? http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2011/10/dr_satoshi_kana.php
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 540 2011-10-07 13:16:31 <phedny> Nakamoto != Kanazawa
 541 2011-10-07 13:16:47 <iGlad> ooh
 542 2011-10-07 13:17:00 <iGlad> i never knew his last name
 543 2011-10-07 13:17:12 <iGlad> but i thought satoshi was made up
 544 2011-10-07 13:17:18 <sipa> i believe so too
 545 2011-10-07 13:17:33 <iGlad> i didnt think i'd encounter news of someone else called satoshi
 546 2011-10-07 13:18:04 <phedny> if you Google satoshi you may conclude that it must be a common name in Japan
 547 2011-10-07 13:18:19 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Ketchum
 548 2011-10-07 13:18:52 <phedny> Gotta catch 'em all?
 549 2011-10-07 13:20:44 <gmaxwell> iGlad: iirc satoshi is a common name, it's like "john"
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 552 2011-10-07 13:22:01 <phedny> gmaxwell: does nakamoto happen to be a common last name, like "doe"?
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 556 2011-10-07 13:24:14 <gmaxwell> phedny: yes. kinda.
 557 2011-10-07 13:24:39 <sipa> "satoshi nakamoto" certainly doesn't have the same connotation as "john doe", though
 558 2011-10-07 13:25:30 <gmaxwell> it's more of a name permutation. Though I think japanese names have lower entropy than european or american names generally.
 559 2011-10-07 13:26:43 <gmaxwell> In any case, his relative anonymity has done us all a good service I think.  I've been involved with several projects who have a very centeral founder and they always suffer with the difficulty of growing beyond his vision.
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 561 2011-10-07 13:28:41 <sipa> lower entropy per romaji character, or per hiragana character?
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 563 2011-10-07 13:29:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: per word.  Well, it's an interesting question that I could answer objectively rather than speculating about, I suppose. :)
 564 2011-10-07 13:29:55 <gmaxwell> But not interesting enough to go find some big name lists.
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 604 2011-10-07 14:42:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: 565c4771b6eba0eeb82f8602735100bbcf4b053e kills build on linux xcompile and probably win32 also, it removes the def of __WXMSW__ from the makefile but its still used in ie headers.h to include things that should be included...
 605 2011-10-07 14:44:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: what is the correct #define?  WX is no more....
 606 2011-10-07 14:45:54 surikator has quit (Quit: Scientific discovery is just maximal compression of strings. Nothing more, nothing less.)
 607 2011-10-07 14:46:36 <BlueMatt> WIN32 I think
 608 2011-10-07 14:48:02 <BlueMatt> also, the bitcoin-qt.pro file defines __WXMSW__ if you are removing defines for wx, you could do that as well ;)
 609 2011-10-07 14:52:48 <gavinandresen> Yes, I'll do that.
 610 2011-10-07 14:53:50 <gavinandresen> Does the Makefile have to define WIN32 or is that auto-magically defined when compiling/cross-compiling?
 611 2011-10-07 14:54:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: what isn't finished about the import/export pullreq is walletdump/walletimport, and all the smart things it uses to avoid rescanning unnecessary parts of the block chain
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 613 2011-10-07 14:54:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: but importprivkey/dumpprivkey are finished as far as i'm concerned (no known bugs...)
 614 2011-10-07 14:54:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: i think it is currently defined, which is why I said WIN32, but you can define whatever you want
 615 2011-10-07 14:55:01 <sipa> except the potential issue with possible double spend attempts and how the wallet code deals with it
 616 2011-10-07 14:55:06 <BlueMatt> WINDOWS or WIN32 or BITCOIN_WIN32
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 619 2011-10-07 14:56:14 <gavinandresen> Looks like WIN32 and _WINDOWS are defined in the makefiles already...
 620 2011-10-07 14:56:53 <gavinandresen> ... except for the qt.pro
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 622 2011-10-07 14:58:47 <gavinandresen> hrmm, got __WXMAC_OSX__ too...
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 624 2011-10-07 15:01:35 <sipa> gavinandresen: want me to make a pullreq without dumpwallet/importwallet?
 625 2011-10-07 15:02:20 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, please
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 631 2011-10-07 15:08:04 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: there should be a __WIN32__ or somethign
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 633 2011-10-07 15:10:44 <gavinandresen> There is already a -DWIN32, I'm going to stick with that.  And rename __WXMAC_OSX__ to -DMAC_OSX
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 636 2011-10-07 15:12:20 <luke-jr> yawn
 637 2011-10-07 15:13:17 <wumpus> is WIN32 correct though?
 638 2011-10-07 15:13:24 <wumpus> should there be WIN64 too?
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 645 2011-10-07 15:15:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r6853e62 / (13 files in 2 dirs):
 646 2011-10-07 15:15:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Fix build on windows and mac
 647 2011-10-07 15:15:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Replaced all occurrences of #if* __WXMSW__ with WIN32,
 648 2011-10-07 15:15:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: and all occurrences of __WXMAC_OSX__ with MAC_OSX, and made
 649 2011-10-07 15:15:23 <CIA-101> bitcoin: sure those are defined appropriately in the makefile and bitcoin-qt.pro. - http://git.io/pc2ovg
 650 2011-10-07 15:15:52 <gavinandresen> No, we don't compile 64-bit windows, there's no reason to.
 651 2011-10-07 15:16:20 <sipa> we don't - maybe someone else does? :)
 652 2011-10-07 15:16:23 <wumpus> yes but someone might want to do it
 653 2011-10-07 15:16:35 <wumpus> but my question was because WIN32 implies 32 bit.. WINDOWS is more generic
 654 2011-10-07 15:16:45 <sipa> i don't think the source tree should just accomodate the builds we do ourselves
 655 2011-10-07 15:16:58 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.4.x * r65ba3e2f5024 bitcoind-stable/src/net.cpp: Bugfix: report error creating ThreadSocketHandler thread just like the rest
 656 2011-10-07 15:17:00 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.4.x * r030d7acf7d7b bitcoind-stable/src/net.cpp: Merge commit '65ba3e2f5024e1e38e119a0c25d5fc30c896cd65' into 0.4.x
 657 2011-10-07 15:17:00 <gavinandresen> So somebody else can go through the code and every place it says #ifdef WIN32 they can figure out whether that should be #ifdef _WINDOWS or #ifdef WIN32 or #ifdef WIN64 or.....
 658 2011-10-07 15:17:01 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Victor Leschuk 0.4.x * r600dc6255971 bitcoind-stable/src/util.h: Fix for 64bit build
 659 2011-10-07 15:17:17 <wumpus> it might build with win64 with win32 set though :-)
 660 2011-10-07 15:17:54 <gavinandresen> building win64 is Officially Unsupported until somebody steps up and says "I'm a windows expert, and I'm going to support it!"
 661 2011-10-07 15:18:09 <gavinandresen> even then, there's no reason to ship win64 binaries.
 662 2011-10-07 15:18:38 <wumpus> I don't think so either, unless processor manufacturers plan on deprecating 32 bit mode some day
 663 2011-10-07 15:19:29 <wumpus> but that's not an issue now
 664 2011-10-07 15:22:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: well, at the current rate of blockchain growth 32 bit systems will run out of virtual memory in about 480 days. (probably eariler due to not all 2g of userspace vm being available and chain growth acceleration)
 665 2011-10-07 15:22:36 <sipa> the block chain isn't loaded into memory?
 666 2011-10-07 15:22:41 <gmaxwell> It's mmaped.
 667 2011-10-07 15:22:46 <sipa> oh, really
 668 2011-10-07 15:23:01 <gavinandresen> Really?  I didn't think so...
 669 2011-10-07 15:23:14 <gmaxwell> Oh, I thought it was, perhaps I'm stupid.
 670 2011-10-07 15:23:17 <gmaxwell> Stupid is always possible.
 671 2011-10-07 15:23:43 <gmaxwell> If its not then bitcoin has some serious virtual memory bloat.
 672 2011-10-07 15:23:45 <gavinandresen> I'm 99% sure it is not-- plain old file operations used to seek/read
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 674 2011-10-07 15:24:01 <gmaxwell> okay, then ignore me, but I wonder where the VM bloat comes from?
 675 2011-10-07 15:24:08 <gavinandresen> ... and Satoshi keeps the blk000n.dat files under 4gig
 676 2011-10-07 15:24:14 <sipa> under 1 gig even
 677 2011-10-07 15:24:19 <sipa> *at
 678 2011-10-07 15:24:54 <gavinandresen> (I was thinking the other day that mmaping the blk000n.dat file would be a good optimization....)
 679 2011-10-07 15:25:34 <gmaxwell> ha. It would be except for that VM issue. :) I'd just seen the large VM use bit bitcoin and assumed it was doing that— it's sort of the obvious thing to do.
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 683 2011-10-07 15:35:10 <wumpus> I don't think we should be doing mmapping in bitcoin itself, it is fraught with issues, especially in 32 bit... let the database lib do it for you
 684 2011-10-07 15:35:56 <sipa> the block chain file is no databasr
 685 2011-10-07 15:36:01 <sipa> database
 686 2011-10-07 15:36:31 <gmaxwell> Besides, it's not like it should be much of a database. It's a pretty simple data structure.
 687 2011-10-07 15:37:05 <sipa> well, if we want to do pruning it does need to be more than that
 688 2011-10-07 15:37:10 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs had been working on some software that stored blocks in files e.g. blocks/xx/yy/zzzzzzz which has its attractiveness and limitations.
 689 2011-10-07 15:37:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: has removeprivkey been thoroughly tested?  Seems like there are a lot of possible edge-cases with it...
 690 2011-10-07 15:38:03 <gavinandresen> (I agree with TD, disk space is cheap, pruning for full nodes doesn't make sense)
 691 2011-10-07 15:38:25 <BlueMatt> yay, bitcoin-qt built now when you try to open it I get an empty error popup and then it exits...and nothing in debug.log
 692 2011-10-07 15:38:37 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's conceptually simple enough: remove the key, and drop anything in the wallet that is neither from or to us anymore
 693 2011-10-07 15:39:01 <sipa> but it could use more testing, yes
 694 2011-10-07 15:40:11 <gavinandresen> sipa:  so if I sendfrom "account" <to somebody> amount confirmations "Payment to blah" ... and then removeprivkey the key that happened to receive the funds that funded that sendfrom...  the wtx with the payment comment will go away?
 695 2011-10-07 15:40:43 <sipa> yes, and the account balance should go negative
 696 2011-10-07 15:41:44 <sipa> ah, the payment itself goes away as well of course
 697 2011-10-07 15:42:20 <sipa> so, yes, the comment gets lost
 698 2011-10-07 15:42:54 <sipa> it isn't "we" anymore that did that payment
 699 2011-10-07 15:43:10 <gavinandresen> The payment going away and the account that 'owned' the private key going negative is OK.  But the fact that a payment happened getting lost could cause major problems for a service that uses the comment field to tie bitcoin transactions to transactions in some other database.
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 701 2011-10-07 15:44:15 <sipa> agree, but i don't see any other reasonable semantics
 702 2011-10-07 15:44:34 <gavinandresen> what is the use case for removeprivkey?
 703 2011-10-07 15:44:46 <gavinandresen> (besides "I want to remove a private key from my wallet")
 704 2011-10-07 15:44:55 <sipa> moving coins to another wallet
 705 2011-10-07 15:45:05 <gavinandresen> ... that's what send* is for....
 706 2011-10-07 15:45:16 <gmaxwell> In particular being sure you don't double spend a key you just gave to someone else.
 707 2011-10-07 15:45:23 <gmaxwell> (via export)
 708 2011-10-07 15:46:48 <sipa> note that it takes a privkey and not an address as argument
 709 2011-10-07 15:46:50 <luke-jr> adhoc bug report via IRC: bitcoind's test JSON-RPC client doesn't work with -testnet anymore
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 711 2011-10-07 15:47:19 <sipa> so you can't delete a key without knowing the privkey
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 713 2011-10-07 15:48:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm worried that online services will shoot themselves in the foot by deciding it is a good idea to delete 'old' private keys, and not figuring out that screws up accounts
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 715 2011-10-07 15:48:34 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:   what is the 'test JSON-RPC client' ????
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 717 2011-10-07 15:48:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: ./bitcoind getinfo
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 719 2011-10-07 15:49:29 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it used to read/use .bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf if you passed -testnet
 720 2011-10-07 15:50:10 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  it has always read .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf for both testnet and regular net.
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 722 2011-10-07 15:50:35 <gavinandresen> (I actually coded it the other way and Satoshi changed it before committing the first testnet changes)
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 724 2011-10-07 15:50:40 <gavinandresen> (sigh)
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 726 2011-10-07 15:52:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: possible alternative semantics:  refuse to remove a private key if doing so would change some unrelated account's balance or remove a send* transaction from that key
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 728 2011-10-07 15:53:28 <luke-jr> O.o
 729 2011-10-07 15:53:47 <gavinandresen> Letting people micro-manage their wallets makes me very, very nervous.
 730 2011-10-07 15:54:42 <terrytibbs> Micro-manage - like a boss! (Sorry, I had to.)
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 735 2011-10-07 16:01:05 <gavinandresen> Here's the scenario I worry about:   some shared wallet provider notices their wallet.dat is getting big, and takes a while to load when they restart bitcoin.
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 737 2011-10-07 16:01:43 <gavinandresen> So they decide it would be a good idea to get all the spent 'change' addresses and remove them from their wallet.
 738 2011-10-07 16:02:36 <gavinandresen> They run their script, relaunch their service... and then have a heart attack when all of their customers' account balances are screwy
 739 2011-10-07 16:03:00 <gavinandresen> I suppose we could say "don't do that".  Or "they can just restore from backup."
 740 2011-10-07 16:06:25 larsivi has joined
 741 2011-10-07 16:06:30 <lianj> shared wallet provider sounds scary anw
 742 2011-10-07 16:07:02 <gavinandresen> Any service that lets you deposit bitcoins and then spend them is a shared wallet provider
 743 2011-10-07 16:07:56 <gavinandresen> ... and they are scary, because you have to trust that they won't run off with your bitcoins.
 744 2011-10-07 16:09:23 <gavinandresen> Anybody else concerned, or am I just being irrationally cranky?
 745 2011-10-07 16:10:00 <diki> gavinandresen:i'd like to ask, when using the -proxy switch, does bitcoind still listen on the local 8332 port?
 746 2011-10-07 16:10:06 <UukGoblin> about micromanaging addresses in a wallet? I think we should allow it in an "advanced" view
 747 2011-10-07 16:10:43 <sipa> gavinandresen: would a warning in the RPC helptext "Warning: this will chance credits and debits of related transactions, remove irrelevant transactions from the wallet, and change balances of affected accounts." ?
 748 2011-10-07 16:11:33 <sipa> i agree that there a definite risks for people shooting themselves in the foot
 749 2011-10-07 16:11:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, a Use With Extreme Caution warning in the RPC help would be good
 750 2011-10-07 16:12:04 <gavinandresen> diki: do you mean the 8333 bitcoin-protocol port?  8332 is RPC...
 751 2011-10-07 16:12:15 <sipa> but there is definitely a use for this (see the long discussion on the forum thread about it), and the popularity of pywallet
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 753 2011-10-07 16:13:01 <diki> gavinandresen:listen on port 8332 but relay through proxy?
 754 2011-10-07 16:13:51 <gavinandresen> diki: I don't recall off the top of my head, I'd have to read the code.
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 756 2011-10-07 16:17:08 <gavinandresen> sipa:  RE: the message:  I think it could change the balances of unrelated accounts
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 758 2011-10-07 16:19:00 <luke-jr> sipa: how about returning a list of the effects "Decreased balance by N", etc, as well as a final copy of the privkey
 759 2011-10-07 16:19:10 <luke-jr> sipa: then when they go OMG WTF DID I DO, they can easily import
 760 2011-10-07 16:19:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: agree
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 762 2011-10-07 16:19:25 <sipa> luke-jr: at that point the transaction messages are lost
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 764 2011-10-07 16:19:31 <luke-jr> ?
 765 2011-10-07 16:19:35 <sipa> if i remove the key corresponding to address X, the account that address is labelled as will lose its credits, and all accounts payments were made from using those coins will lose their debits
 766 2011-10-07 16:19:43 c0w is now known as c00w
 767 2011-10-07 16:19:57 <sipa> luke-jr: the comments about that transaction
 768 2011-10-07 16:20:04 <luke-jr> oh
 769 2011-10-07 16:20:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: maybe removeprivkey could dump out all the transactions affected by the removal,along with comments/etc
 770 2011-10-07 16:20:19 <gavinandresen> ... so you would SEE what got affected
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 772 2011-10-07 16:20:40 <sipa> in that case there should be a way to do so in a "dry run" fashion
 773 2011-10-07 16:20:46 <gavinandresen> good idea
 774 2011-10-07 16:20:47 <luke-jr> sounds like removeprivkey should MOVE the pubkey from "active" to "past" with a timestamp :p
 775 2011-10-07 16:20:54 <luke-jr> so it can log the debits
 776 2011-10-07 16:21:06 <luke-jr> of course, that makes it complex
 777 2011-10-07 16:21:21 <luke-jr> and import shouldn't show debits probably :|
 778 2011-10-07 16:21:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: another possbility is first implementing the "watched addresses" feature (for which no actual private key is available in the wallet)
 779 2011-10-07 16:21:50 <sipa> and have removeprivkey change a key from available to unavailable, leaving all transactions intact
 780 2011-10-07 16:22:41 <diki> why would someone remove a private key?
 781 2011-10-07 16:22:56 <sipa> diki: because i gave it to you, and don't want to accidentally spend its funds
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 783 2011-10-07 16:24:15 <gavinandresen> I just got 400 trillion dollars in the mail!   They're Zimbabwe dollars, but still, pretty cool!
 784 2011-10-07 16:24:33 <diki> time to pay america's debt then :D
 785 2011-10-07 16:24:49 <BlueMatt> what are they actually worth?
 786 2011-10-07 16:24:55 <BlueMatt> also...why?
 787 2011-10-07 16:24:55 <diki> 0.01 bitcoins
 788 2011-10-07 16:25:21 <luke-jr> sipa: but if you remove the key, you probably don't want to see *future* txns either
 789 2011-10-07 16:25:28 <sipa> luke-jr: agree
 790 2011-10-07 16:25:35 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh i never started working on that, i've done it for other projects though
 791 2011-10-07 16:25:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: never started working on it for bitcoin, i mean
 792 2011-10-07 16:25:57 <luke-jr> sipa: otoh, importers MIGHT want to see history
 793 2011-10-07 16:26:33 <diki> jrmithdobbs:what are u doing here?
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 798 2011-10-07 16:31:11 <jrmithdobbs> diki: what
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 800 2011-10-07 16:32:29 <sipa> what is probably the best behaviour is 1) removing the key 2) not seeing any future transactions 3) leave all existing transactions in place 4) book virtual "key removed" transaction for all remaining credits from that key
 801 2011-10-07 16:33:10 <sipa> that would be major change to the wallet system, and probably overkill for the intended use case
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 803 2011-10-07 16:33:26 <sipa> the intended use case being "the key is not mine anymore"
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 817 2011-10-07 16:58:24 <freewil> in the rpc call sendfrom what is the purpose for the minconf param
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 819 2011-10-07 17:00:25 <gavinandresen> freewil: to help prevent "withdraw unconfirmed coins" attacks
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 821 2011-10-07 17:01:14 <gavinandresen> freewil: if you're a service that require 3 confirmations before coins can be spent, you should sendfrom with 3 confirmations to make sure you never spend your chickens before they hatch
 822 2011-10-07 17:02:26 <freewil> gavinandresen, i see; so if you deposit x amount and there has only been 3 confirmations, but then you try to use sendfrom with 6 transactions then the sendfrom call will fail?
 823 2011-10-07 17:02:43 <freewil> s/transactions/confirmations
 824 2011-10-07 17:03:03 <gavinandresen> freewil: sendfrom chooses from all the coins in the wallet, so if there aren't enough in the entire wallet with that many confirmations, yes, it will fail
 825 2011-10-07 17:04:13 <freewil> gavinandresen, sendfrom requires an account (as opposed to sendtoaddress) so doesnt it only use choose from the coins in the given account?
 826 2011-10-07 17:04:52 <gavinandresen> freewil: no.  But I just checked, it does check that the account being sent from has received coins with the right number of confirmations.
 827 2011-10-07 17:04:57 cronopio has joined
 828 2011-10-07 17:05:13 <gavinandresen> (no it doesn't only choose coins that were sent to that account-- all the coins get mixed up once they enter the wallet)
 829 2011-10-07 17:05:41 <freewil> gavinandresen, thanks for the info, I am going to add some more details to the wiki on this api call.
 830 2011-10-07 17:05:50 <gavinandresen> freewil: thanks!
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 832 2011-10-07 17:10:43 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the default minconf is 6 right
 833 2011-10-07 17:11:04 <jrmithdobbs> diki: what did you mean why am i here?
 834 2011-10-07 17:11:13 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: 5
 835 2011-10-07 17:11:36 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: default minconf for all the RPC commands is 1
 836 2011-10-07 17:11:38 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: cause the block it's in doesn't count iirc (please correct me could be misremembering)
 837 2011-10-07 17:12:10 <freewil> i am looking at the sendfrom function on 0.3.24 and it defaults to 1
 838 2011-10-07 17:12:26 <freewil> so it calls getAccountBalance with nMinDepth 1
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 840 2011-10-07 17:12:45 <freewil> GetAccountBalance(strAccount, nMinDepth);
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 845 2011-10-07 17:21:17 <upb> [A
 846 2011-10-07 17:21:19 <upb> [A
 847 2011-10-07 17:23:23 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, interesting
 848 2011-10-07 17:24:30 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: ... if I could go back in time I think I'd change the default to '3' ...  maybe not a bad idea to change it now...
 849 2011-10-07 17:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> why 3?
 850 2011-10-07 17:28:35 <freewil> seems like 6 has become the pseudo-standard
 851 2011-10-07 17:32:51 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Spesmilo uses 3 stages
 852 2011-10-07 17:33:13 <luke-jr> 0-2 is validating; 3-6 is processing; 7+ is confirmed
 853 2011-10-07 17:33:28 <freewil> what is Spesmilo
 854 2011-10-07 17:33:45 <jrmithdobbs> freewil: a gui that just calls bitcoind rpc
 855 2011-10-07 17:33:52 <gavinandresen> 3 is a magic number. Yes it is.  It's a magic number.
 856 2011-10-07 17:34:51 <gavinandresen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPzAjiLr5Zw
 857 2011-10-07 17:36:28 <phantomcircuit> lol
 858 2011-10-07 17:36:30 <freewil> does bitcoin and bitcoind interact with each other as separate processes or do they just share the same library
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 860 2011-10-07 17:37:30 <jrmithdobbs> freewil: they are the same binary
 861 2011-10-07 17:38:46 <freewil> jrmithdobbs, so is it possible to run the rpc server with the gui
 862 2011-10-07 17:38:52 <jrmithdobbs> yes
 863 2011-10-07 17:38:59 <BlueMatt> bitcoin.exe -server
 864 2011-10-07 17:39:40 <freewil> so the only difference is that bitcoind doesnt launch the gui?
 865 2011-10-07 17:39:56 <BlueMatt> mostly that gui isnt linked
 866 2011-10-07 17:40:16 <freewil> hm good to know
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 884 2011-10-07 18:00:37 <luke-jr> What is wrong with this block? :/ http://paste.pocoo.org/show/489033/
 885 2011-10-07 18:02:19 <luke-jr> ProcessMessage(block, 166 bytes) : Exception 'ReadCompactSize() : size too large' caught
 886 2011-10-07 18:02:20 <luke-jr> ProcessMessage(block, 166 bytes) FAILED
 887 2011-10-07 18:02:22 <luke-jr> PROCESSMESSAGE SKIPPED 4 BYTES
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 896 2011-10-07 18:38:39 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #61: FAILURE in 22 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/61/
 897 2011-10-07 18:39:11 <BlueMatt> arg wtf
 898 2011-10-07 18:39:34 <BlueMatt> hmmm...might not by my fault this time...
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 902 2011-10-07 18:43:47 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: looks like it's trying to build wxBitcoin
 903 2011-10-07 18:44:09 <BlueMatt> its just calling make -f makefile.linux-mingw in other words it would be a bug in the makefile
 904 2011-10-07 18:45:44 <gavinandresen> bug in the makefile
 905 2011-10-07 18:46:03 <gavinandresen> need to remove obj/ui_res.o from the dependencies
 906 2011-10-07 18:46:20 <BlueMatt> yep
 907 2011-10-07 18:46:33 <luke-jr> argh
 908 2011-10-07 18:46:39 <luke-jr> C++ makes debugging impossible -.-
 909 2011-10-07 18:46:48 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen  * rc1131a2 / (src/makefile.linux-mingw src/makefile.mingw): Remove ui_res from makefiles - http://git.io/bu2nVA
 910 2011-10-07 18:46:57 <BlueMatt> and boost makes it worse (didnt even think it was possible...)
 911 2011-10-07 18:47:38 <luke-jr> so how can I figure out why bitcoind is barfing on the block data?
 912 2011-10-07 18:47:52 <luke-jr> manual deconstruction seems ok
 913 2011-10-07 18:47:55 <BlueMatt> a lot of fprintf(stderr, ...)s
 914 2011-10-07 18:48:07 <luke-jr> x.x
 915 2011-10-07 18:48:12 <luke-jr> and waiting for it to stop/start
 916 2011-10-07 18:48:34 <gavinandresen> why can't you put a breakpoint in ProcessBlock and step through?
 917 2011-10-07 18:48:58 <luke-jr> it never gets to ProcessBlock
 918 2011-10-07 18:49:00 <gavinandresen> (err, ProcessMessage, the 'block' case...)
 919 2011-10-07 18:49:09 <BlueMatt> then your breakpoint is too late
 920 2011-10-07 18:49:19 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: gdb can't step into templates
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 922 2011-10-07 18:49:34 <luke-jr>         vRecv >> block; <-- last gdb-able line
 923 2011-10-07 18:49:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: where would I even put the printfs? :/
 924 2011-10-07 18:50:10 <BlueMatt> well thats the other problem...
 925 2011-10-07 18:50:12 <gavinandresen> break before then, then add a breakpoint in ReadCompactSize
 926 2011-10-07 18:50:23 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's templated. gdb can't handle it at all.
 927 2011-10-07 18:50:25 <gavinandresen> ... and see what bytes it is getting.
 928 2011-10-07 18:50:38 <phantomcircuit> well it kind of can
 929 2011-10-07 18:50:45 <phantomcircuit> you just have to decode the function name first
 930 2011-10-07 18:50:48 <phantomcircuit> good luck with that
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 932 2011-10-07 18:51:49 <luke-jr> sure, I can set a breakpoint with the decoded func name
 933 2011-10-07 18:51:54 <luke-jr> but gdb still won't show me the lines
 934 2011-10-07 18:51:58 <luke-jr> or let me step in it
 935 2011-10-07 18:52:39 <gavinandresen> I agree, C++ sucks for debugging.  And compiler error messages, too....
 936 2011-10-07 18:53:12 <gavinandresen> Or maybe:  every implementation of C++ I've ever used has sucked for debugging and error messages.....
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 940 2011-10-07 19:06:12 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah you can do it... if you strip debug symbols
 941 2011-10-07 19:06:14 <phantomcircuit> fun right
 942 2011-10-07 19:06:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the STL means that every C++ program is full of complicated meta-programming, I think providing good error messages is fundimentally hard in that context.
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 952 2011-10-07 19:13:21 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 953 2011-10-07 19:13:22 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #62: FIXED in 26 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/62/
 954 2011-10-07 19:13:22 <BlueMattBot> gavinandresen: Remove ui_res from makefiles
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 970 2011-10-07 20:03:41 <iddo> can someone explain the time travel issue, why telling other nodes a wrong timestamp on block you generated gives you advantage for an attack? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42417.msg517020#msg517020
 971 2011-10-07 20:05:50 <phantomcircuit> iddo, because you can convince half the network the block is valid and the other half that it's invalid
 972 2011-10-07 20:06:10 <phantomcircuit> if you can maintain that long enough you will be able to double spend
 973 2011-10-07 20:07:26 <iddo> are you sure that double-spending was the objective here? i thought it managed to generate more new blocks compared to other miners?
 974 2011-10-07 20:07:52 <luke-jr> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED]
 975 2011-10-07 20:08:43 <phantomcircuit> iddo, no it's a double spend attack
 976 2011-10-07 20:08:54 <phantomcircuit> iddo, i guess you can also do funny stuff
 977 2011-10-07 20:10:40 <iddo> why did you say half the network thinks the block is valid? you broadcast two different timestamps for the block you generated?
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 979 2011-10-07 20:10:51 <luke-jr> impossible
 980 2011-10-07 20:11:28 <iddo> ah the timestamp is part of the data signed with sha256
 981 2011-10-07 20:12:39 <iddo> so i still don't understand what advantage it gives you for an attack
 982 2011-10-07 20:13:32 <jrmithdobbs> you can do some other non-double-spend stuff with it
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 984 2011-10-07 20:14:50 <iddo> i fail to understand neither how you double-spend nor whatever else you can do
 985 2011-10-07 20:15:47 <phantomcircuit> iddo, you move the "network time" for half hte network up
 986 2011-10-07 20:15:54 <phantomcircuit> and the "network time" for the other half down
 987 2011-10-07 20:16:00 <phantomcircuit> then you generate a block in the middle
 988 2011-10-07 20:16:10 <phantomcircuit> shazam you've split the network because of the hard limits
 989 2011-10-07 20:16:36 <iddo> how do you move only half the network?
 990 2011-10-07 20:18:52 <jrmithdobbs> by handing out bogus times to nodes
 991 2011-10-07 20:19:02 <jrmithdobbs> that are just under the 2h limit
 992 2011-10-07 20:19:08 <jrmithdobbs> pretty straightforward
 993 2011-10-07 20:19:44 <iddo> but the nodes broadcast your block to other nodes, so why does it affect only half the network and not the entire network?
 994 2011-10-07 20:20:07 <jrmithdobbs> because you split half the network up the other half down
 995 2011-10-07 20:20:08 <iddo> hmm what is the 2h limit ?
 996 2011-10-07 20:20:16 <jrmithdobbs> hardcoded magic number
 997 2011-10-07 20:21:06 <lianj> ?
 998 2011-10-07 20:21:30 <iddo> split how? you broadcast a timestamp that half of nodes will accept when it reaches them, and other half will reject because it reached too late?
 999 2011-10-07 20:21:31 <lianj> oh nevermind..
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1001 2011-10-07 20:22:49 <lianj> broadcast timestamp still means broadcast valid blocks with these timestamps in them right?
1002 2011-10-07 20:23:30 <luke-jr> no
1003 2011-10-07 20:24:32 <lianj> how can you just broadcast timestamps and why would other nodes care about them
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