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27 2011-10-10 00:47:56 <b4epoche_> I'm trying to come up with simple ways to explain how public/private key pairs are used in Bitcoin.
28 2011-10-10 00:48:20 <b4epoche_> public keys (in disguise) are obviously used as addresses
29 2011-10-10 00:48:59 <b4epoche_> is it correct to say that the private keys essentially just confirm who 'owns' an address?
30 2011-10-10 00:58:52 <BTCTrader_> i think so
31 2011-10-10 00:59:03 <BTCTrader_> a dev could confirm
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46 2011-10-10 01:27:57 <sipa> b4epoche_: sounds correct to me
47 2011-10-10 01:28:54 <b4epoche_> okay⦠it's proving hard to dumb down complex things when you start to realize you don't fully understand the complex thing
48 2011-10-10 01:28:57 <b4epoche_> thx
49 2011-10-10 01:29:32 <sipa> see it as mailboxes: anyone can put something in it, but only one with the key can unlock
50 2011-10-10 01:29:45 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: I used a model of saying an address is like a safty deposit box, and the private key is the key to the box.
51 2011-10-10 01:29:58 <gmaxwell> Oh, sipa's mailboxes are better.
52 2011-10-10 01:30:30 <sipa> the pubkey/address is the number of the mailbox, the secret key the key
53 2011-10-10 01:31:03 <b4epoche_> oh, like the postal mailboxes...
54 2011-10-10 01:33:22 <b4epoche_> these guys: http://blog.timesunion.com/opinion/files/2011/08/0822_WVpostal.jpg
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57 2011-10-10 01:36:27 <sipa> i was thinking about this: http://community.tradeking.com/upload/0001/0435/apartment_mailboxes.jpg
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59 2011-10-10 01:37:07 <b4epoche_> not sure anyone can actually put stuff in those mailboxes.
60 2011-10-10 01:38:37 <shadders> anyone care to help me figure out out construct a merkle branch?
61 2011-10-10 01:39:16 <shadders> Trying to decipher GetMerkleBranch but with all the bitshifts and xors it's a bit confusing
62 2011-10-10 01:39:34 <shadders> Just trying to understand the order to add the nodes...
63 2011-10-10 01:40:05 <sipa> b4epoche_: if youknow the address, why not?
64 2011-10-10 01:40:05 <shadders> i.e. if I want the branch for node 4 of a 5 node tree.
65 2011-10-10 01:40:26 <shadders> would I begin by adding node 3,4 or 4,3?
66 2011-10-10 01:41:06 <sipa> what is node 3,4 or 4,3?
67 2011-10-10 01:41:06 <b4epoche_> usually only the postal worker has a master key to open a panel in the back of those to put mail in
68 2011-10-10 01:41:31 <shadders> (((12)(34))((55)(55)))
69 2011-10-10 01:41:32 <shadders> / \
70 2011-10-10 01:41:32 <shadders> ((12)(34)) ((55)(55))
71 2011-10-10 01:41:32 <shadders> / \ / \
72 2011-10-10 01:41:32 <shadders> (12) (34) (55) (55)
73 2011-10-10 01:41:32 <shadders> / \ / \ / \
74 2011-10-10 01:41:34 <shadders> 1 2 3 4 5 5
75 2011-10-10 01:41:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was actually thinking of apartment mailboxes too, but I couldn't find a picture of one that you could obviously put mail in.
76 2011-10-10 01:42:01 <gmaxwell> b4epoche_: there are apartment mailboxes where you can, they usually have a thin slot.
77 2011-10-10 01:42:09 <shadders> if it's 3,4 that would imply that the branch for either of a pair would be the same
78 2011-10-10 01:42:24 <b4epoche_> gmaxwell: ah, never lived in an apartment with those kind
79 2011-10-10 01:42:39 <shadders> sipa: branch is just a list of nodes from what I can see...
80 2011-10-10 01:42:46 <sipa> yes
81 2011-10-10 01:43:02 <sipa> but what is 4,3?
82 2011-10-10 01:43:38 <shadders> so I'm guessing branch for node 4 would be something like: 3,4,12,34,1234,5555,root
83 2011-10-10 01:44:11 <shadders> 4,3 is two entries in the list... 1st 4, 2nd 3
84 2011-10-10 01:44:24 <sipa> ah
85 2011-10-10 01:44:40 <sipa> is the entry itself included?
86 2011-10-10 01:45:03 <shadders> good question
87 2011-10-10 01:46:38 <sipa> i never imagined so
88 2011-10-10 01:47:16 <shadders> I might have to see if I can javafy the code so I can run it and see what it produces...
89 2011-10-10 01:47:19 <sipa> but obviously one needs to know whether the merkle branch elements are lw
90 2011-10-10 01:47:33 <sipa> left or right partners
91 2011-10-10 01:47:47 <shadders> yes
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93 2011-10-10 01:48:23 <shadders> the example branch I posted above seems the most complete. no ambiguity
94 2011-10-10 01:49:13 <shadders> though the next question is, if yr building from node five do you duplicate the missing nodes in the branch...
95 2011-10-10 01:49:41 <shadders> i.e. 5,5,55,55,1234,5555,root
96 2011-10-10 01:49:58 <shadders> if you didn't then again it would be ambiguous
97 2011-10-10 01:51:48 <sipa> the merkle branch in your example is 3, 12, 5555
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100 2011-10-10 01:53:07 <shadders> ahh it's only nodes you to calculate the rest.
101 2011-10-10 01:53:15 <sipa> and you need to know the position of what you're checking
102 2011-10-10 01:54:52 <shadders> ok.. so using position you can calculate if each of the provided nodes in the branch represent a left or right
103 2011-10-10 01:55:18 <sipa> indeed
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105 2011-10-10 01:56:48 <shadders> k... I think I can work it out from there... will try to implement GetMerkleBranch anyway to see if I can understand the bitshifting convolutions
106 2011-10-10 01:56:57 <shadders> thanks sipa :)
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182 2011-10-10 04:26:32 <CIA-101> bitcoin: imsaguy * redf3af2b6665 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/plugin.py: Removed quotes to match all the other responses.
183 2011-10-10 04:26:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: imsaguy * r5d55dbbec2fd supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpg-eauth-mirc.mrc: New version of the mIRC helper script. It has been almost entirely rewritten.
184 2011-10-10 04:26:35 <CIA-101> bitcoin: nanotube * r10ee11ed84f5 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/ (helperscripts/bitcoin-otc-gpg-eauth-mirc.mrc plugin.py): Merge pull request #20 from imsaguy/master
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200 2011-10-10 04:46:34 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r4cbdba41548a supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPG/plugin.py: GPG: fix error in nested ident when target user was not identified.
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246 2011-10-10 05:31:33 <orange-hand> Hi
247 2011-10-10 05:31:46 <orange-hand> What prevents the following attack:
248 2011-10-10 05:32:07 dCtrl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
249 2011-10-10 05:32:10 <orange-hand> someone adds a huge amount of mining power for a short while
250 2011-10-10 05:32:20 <orange-hand> and when the hardness resets, they stop mining
251 2011-10-10 05:32:37 <orange-hand> thus transactions will occur very slowly for a long period of time
252 2011-10-10 05:32:41 <nanotube> orange-hand: the fact that it'd cost a crapload of money to do that to the bitcoin network
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254 2011-10-10 05:32:55 <orange-hand> can't a botnet do that?
255 2011-10-10 05:32:57 <gmaxwell> The most the difficulty can change in one cycle is 4x.
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257 2011-10-10 05:33:10 <gmaxwell> No, not botnets that exist today.
258 2011-10-10 05:33:19 <orange-hand> ok
259 2011-10-10 05:33:28 <orange-hand> ty
260 2011-10-10 05:33:45 <orange-hand> or if someone hijacked the amazon cloud :D
261 2011-10-10 05:33:51 <orange-hand> just for a short period of time
262 2011-10-10 05:33:51 <gmaxwell> Again, not useful.
263 2011-10-10 05:34:53 <gmaxwell> Overall bitcoin hashpower right now is equal to around a million high end quad core cpus.
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265 2011-10-10 05:35:17 <nanotube> well, if someone like google/amazon/government wanted to grief bitcoin, maybe they could :)
266 2011-10-10 05:35:33 <nanotube> (i.e., not with a profit motive, but with a motive to spend resources just to screw with bitcoin)
267 2011-10-10 05:35:45 <gmaxwell> But again, in one difficulty cycle it will only change by up to 4x.
268 2011-10-10 05:35:57 <nanotube> they'd have to do it for several cycles
269 2011-10-10 05:36:18 <nanotube> and of course, if they wanted to grief, and have enough hash power to raise diff by many times... they can do better things
270 2011-10-10 05:36:20 <orange-hand> even 4x would make transactions mighty slow
271 2011-10-10 05:36:21 <gmaxwell> Well, and have the expoentially greater computing power required to do that.
272 2011-10-10 05:36:22 <nanotube> (like prevent tx conf)
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276 2011-10-10 05:39:27 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: moving it to 4x in a half week using the current cheapest option would cost about ~20 million dollars. If you want to spend 20 million to screw with bitcoin you could do so more effectively (and lawfully) with TV ads.
277 2011-10-10 05:40:15 <nanotube> heh i'm not so sure... having tv ads about bitcoin, even if they're negative ads, would probably have the effect of increasing bitcoin awareness, more than anything else :P
278 2011-10-10 05:41:00 <gmaxwell> I'm skeptical that the computing power actually exist under any single parties control to do it even in that timeframe. Thats certantly more computing power than google is claimed to have.
279 2011-10-10 05:41:20 <nanotube> nsa
280 2011-10-10 05:41:22 <nanotube> maybe :)
281 2011-10-10 05:41:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, if they have an FPGA farm with fpgas which are big enough.
282 2011-10-10 05:41:53 <gmaxwell> I'm actually skeptical that they doâ though they will probably within a few years if they don't currently.
283 2011-10-10 05:41:59 <nanotube> well, they can just take their gpu farms that they use to crack other encryption
284 2011-10-10 05:42:07 <nanotube> and put them to use mining bitcoin for a week
285 2011-10-10 05:42:23 <nanotube> if they can swallow the opportunity cost
286 2011-10-10 05:42:35 <gmaxwell> IIRC they have big fpga farms for that, thats why intel has a fab in new jersey (nsa doesn't want parts fabbed outside of the US)
287 2011-10-10 05:42:55 <AlexWaters> IMO if someone can create a 5-10s bitcoin POS at a processing rate lower than 2% - Bitcoin would explode
288 2011-10-10 05:42:57 <nanotube> smart, that
289 2011-10-10 05:43:17 <AlexWaters> and that would be the most cost-effective way to increase the price =P
290 2011-10-10 05:43:44 <nanotube> yes that'd help, and i think bit-pay and btcinch are working on those
291 2011-10-10 05:43:44 <gmaxwell> AlexWaters: increasing the price is subject matter for #btc-value not #bitcoin-dev. :)
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297 2011-10-10 05:45:16 <AlexWaters> gmaxwell: my bad - wrong channel =0
298 2011-10-10 05:47:02 <nanotube> gmaxwell: well, it's about the development of pos, hence -dev :P
299 2011-10-10 05:49:00 <ThomasV> what is wrong with current POS solutions?
300 2011-10-10 05:49:50 <gmaxwell> Thats fine, but I really don't like the distraction of "omg drive up bitcoin price"â good development is good development.
301 2011-10-10 05:50:31 <ThomasV> omg! a squirrel!!
302 2011-10-10 05:52:17 <ThomasV> I, mean, for POS, you don't really have to fear double spend attacks; someone with enough resources to attempt it would not do it for small change
303 2011-10-10 05:52:56 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
304 2011-10-10 05:53:46 <nanotube> gmaxwell: yea i know, just felt like throwing that out there :D
305 2011-10-10 05:54:12 <nanotube> ThomasV: indeed, monitoring something like transactionradar should be plenty good enough.
306 2011-10-10 05:54:12 Diablo-D3 has joined
307 2011-10-10 05:54:32 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: a zero confirm double spend doesn't take any resouces.
308 2011-10-10 05:55:09 <ThomasV> indeed, but it would be visible
309 2011-10-10 05:55:28 <nanotube> well, it takes /some/, if you want to have a reasonable chance of controlling which of the spends is more likely to be mined.
310 2011-10-10 05:55:56 <nanotube> iow, the merchant's node has to receive the 'tx to merchant' while 'all other nodes or as many as possible' receive the doublespend tx
311 2011-10-10 05:56:54 <nanotube> so you need to at least have some infrastructure, and to do some homework to locate merchant's node
312 2011-10-10 05:56:56 <gmaxwell> nanotube: It doesn't have to be successful every timeâ I could easily make a script that every time I make a payment, it makes a conflicting payment and announces it 1 second later far away in the network.
313 2011-10-10 05:57:10 <ThomasV> most importantly, the merchant's node has to not receive the 2nd spend
314 2011-10-10 05:57:30 <gmaxwell> It won't because the first spend will make it deaf.
315 2011-10-10 05:57:38 <nanotube> gmaxwell: true, so you can end up not paying for 1 out of 100 bagels you buy. whopdeedoo. :)
316 2011-10-10 05:57:59 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: will make it deaf? why?
317 2011-10-10 05:58:16 <nanotube> the default client ignores conflicting tx. it only accepts first it sees.
318 2011-10-10 05:58:19 <nanotube> ThomasV: ^
319 2011-10-10 05:58:21 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: because nodes never forward conflicting transactions.
320 2011-10-10 05:59:01 <gmaxwell> So e.g. I give merchant TX1, he gives it to his peers.. in the meantime I shoot it straight to a couple pool after a slight delay.
321 2011-10-10 05:59:18 <gmaxwell> er s/it/TX2/
322 2011-10-10 05:59:23 <gmaxwell> (the second it)
323 2011-10-10 05:59:41 <ThomasV> hmm, isn't that a weakness? I mean, they could forward it with the mention that it is conflicting, "for information"
324 2011-10-10 06:00:13 <gmaxwell> Makes it trivial to dos a network by just generating endless conflicting txn.
325 2011-10-10 06:00:41 <ThomasV> hmm, you are right
326 2011-10-10 06:00:53 <gmaxwell> Well, it can be solved. I posted about this someplace.
327 2011-10-10 06:01:08 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: how about allowing only one conflicting tx per private key?
328 2011-10-10 06:01:36 <gmaxwell> Basically it would be possible to make a "conflict notice" for each conflicted input. And you ship an example conflict with it to prove that it's a real conflict.
329 2011-10-10 06:01:51 <ThomasV> yes, exactly
330 2011-10-10 06:02:18 <ThomasV> that's actually how I thought it worked :-D
331 2011-10-10 06:02:19 <gmaxwell> Yea. There are some corner cases that you have to cope with... but it can be done.
332 2011-10-10 06:02:46 <nanotube> or just have third-party services providing that info (a la txradar)
333 2011-10-10 06:03:06 <nanotube> if the guy can 'hook up' with some major mining pools, that'd be even better
334 2011-10-10 06:03:23 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
335 2011-10-10 06:03:55 <ThomasV> oh I did not know txradar
336 2011-10-10 06:05:16 <ThomasV> maybe that's a solution, although not a decentralized one
337 2011-10-10 06:06:04 <gmaxwell> well, we ultimately should have both.
338 2011-10-10 06:06:26 <gmaxwell> txradar like service will be cheaper and more effective with conflict forwarding.
339 2011-10-10 06:06:41 <nanotube> mm
340 2011-10-10 06:07:00 <nanotube> maybe you should write up a BEP (or whatever they decided to call the proposals) :)
341 2011-10-10 06:08:05 <gmaxwell> It wasn't mostly my proposal, someone else was pushing it. (I think I just commented about how you can solve the DOS problem)
342 2011-10-10 06:08:10 <ThomasV> gmaxwell said he posted about it somewhere
343 2011-10-10 06:08:43 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what miners should do when they hear a conflict.
344 2011-10-10 06:08:54 <ThomasV> what was your solution for DOS ?
345 2011-10-10 06:09:00 <gmaxwell> Ideally you'd want all miners to pick the same txn and everyone else to know which they picked.
346 2011-10-10 06:09:06 amtal has joined
347 2011-10-10 06:09:20 <ThomasV> maybe miners would pick the highest fee :-)
348 2011-10-10 06:09:33 <gmaxwell> Yes, that much is obvious, and what about when its the same?
349 2011-10-10 06:10:04 <ThomasV> what they do now
350 2011-10-10 06:10:12 <ThomasV> chronology
351 2011-10-10 06:10:14 <gmaxwell> Well, heard first doesn't help here..
352 2011-10-10 06:10:29 <gmaxwell> because you don't want bot txn getting mined by different miners.
353 2011-10-10 06:10:33 <gmaxwell> s/bot/both/
354 2011-10-10 06:10:42 <ThomasV> isn't it what they do now?
355 2011-10-10 06:11:00 <gmaxwell> Yes, but it's not ideal in the case of conflicts.
356 2011-10-10 06:11:17 <gmaxwell> It means that even if the whole network hears of the conflict you might see 1 confirm that eventually goes away.
357 2011-10-10 06:11:51 <gmaxwell> Ideally all miners would pick the same oneâ when they're aware of a conflict the risk of going 1 confirm that goes away is reduced.
358 2011-10-10 06:12:24 <ThomasV> but broadcasting a conflict notice is not bloadcasting a tx ; I don't see why you also want to change the current protocol for valid tx
359 2011-10-10 06:14:05 <gmaxwell> You _must_ brodcast at least one conflicting TX or the conflict notice could be a lie.
360 2011-10-10 06:14:46 <gmaxwell> s/brodcast/broadcast/
361 2011-10-10 06:14:49 dvide_ has joined
362 2011-10-10 06:15:16 <gmaxwell> I don't want to change anything when there isn't a conflictâ I only want to change the conflict case. And I thought I explained why changing the behavior there would be valuable?
363 2011-10-10 06:15:39 <gmaxwell> Right now about 1% of the time a mined block is eventually orphaned because different mined block get extended first.
364 2011-10-10 06:15:51 <ThomasV> hmm, trying to reread whay tou wrote - sorry I don't get it
365 2011-10-10 06:16:00 <ThomasV> *you*
366 2011-10-10 06:16:30 <gmaxwell> In these cases, if the losing conflicting txn made it into the block that eventually loses the extension warâ then some nodes will see that txn go to 1 confirmed and then later go to 0 confirmed (forever).
367 2011-10-10 06:16:54 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
368 2011-10-10 06:16:57 <gmaxwell> So if you make the conflict resolution determinstic then it will be very unlikely for that to happen.
369 2011-10-10 06:17:21 <nanotube> gmaxwell: my understanding of your proposal is that rather than rebroadcasting all conflicting tx, you just broadcast a conflict notice once per conflict (i.e., subsequent conflicting tx don't keep getting rebroadcast). so you solve the dos problem. ?
370 2011-10-10 06:17:38 <gmaxwell> (it would only happen for miners that ignore the determinstic rule, or when the a non-prefered conflict is mined before the notice spreads out)
371 2011-10-10 06:17:51 mologie has joined
372 2011-10-10 06:18:46 <gmaxwell> nanotube: Notice per _input_ which is conflicted, and the notice will reference two conflicting txn, which you need to also hand to the peer (so they can see that there is indeed a conflict)
373 2011-10-10 06:19:17 TheSeven has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 90 seconds.)
374 2011-10-10 06:19:30 <ThomasV> <gmaxwell> You _must_ brodcast at least one conflicting TX or the conflict notice could be a lie. <--- I think this is the part I do not understand. a signed lie?
375 2011-10-10 06:20:02 TheSeven has joined
376 2011-10-10 06:20:04 <nanotube> gmaxwell: right.
377 2011-10-10 06:20:20 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: you send a txn. I hate you. I tell all my peers that your txn is conflicting another txn. Now your txn gets delayed. Thats bad.
378 2011-10-10 06:21:01 <nanotube> ThomasV: only way to be sure it's real, is to have two signed messages from the tx originator both trying to spend the same bitcoins.
379 2011-10-10 06:21:08 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: but how can you tell it's conflicting, if you don't have the key to sign it?
380 2011-10-10 06:21:11 <gmaxwell> Instead, I propose, you send a txn ... I can't tell people there is a conflict because to do so I must provide copies of the two transactions. Then they can see you signed both.
381 2011-10-10 06:21:13 <nanotube> which means, you must include two transactions.
382 2011-10-10 06:21:41 <ThomasV> nanotube: it depends what you mean by "include"
383 2011-10-10 06:21:51 <nanotube> provide along with your 'conflict' message
384 2011-10-10 06:21:55 <gmaxwell> I send the txn IDs and I'm willing to provide them if they get them from me.
385 2011-10-10 06:21:56 <nanotube> to prove you're not making shit up
386 2011-10-10 06:22:02 <gmaxwell> (or I just pack them along)
387 2011-10-10 06:22:14 <gmaxwell> The former is more efficient because they'll likely have at least one already.
388 2011-10-10 06:23:07 terrytibbs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
389 2011-10-10 06:23:12 terrytibbs has joined
390 2011-10-10 06:23:34 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: oh, did not realize that you tried to save bandwidth
391 2011-10-10 06:25:25 <forrestv> hm ... allow conflicting txns to be included a block, with the miner collecting the entire value of them :P
392 2011-10-10 06:25:41 <forrestv> and prefer blocks that include conflicting txns
393 2011-10-10 06:25:50 <ThomasV> :)
394 2011-10-10 06:26:07 <nanotube> hehe nice thought, forrestv :)
395 2011-10-10 06:26:15 <midnightmagic> would two txn in one mined block that conflict be accepted by other bitcoind?
396 2011-10-10 06:26:17 <nanotube> good way to discourage double spends
397 2011-10-10 06:26:24 <nanotube> midnightmagic: no currently not.
398 2011-10-10 06:26:29 <nanotube> that would require a chain split
399 2011-10-10 06:26:39 <forrestv> actually, the 'prefer blocks' part would allow people to easily override previous blocks ... so that needs more thought
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403 2011-10-10 06:27:01 <nanotube> forrestv: well, so forget about the prefer bit
404 2011-10-10 06:27:10 <ThomasV> forrestv: also, encourage double spend because they grow the economy faster
405 2011-10-10 06:27:13 <nanotube> that only matters in case of block races anyway
406 2011-10-10 06:27:16 Scarab has joined
407 2011-10-10 06:27:29 <Scarab> anyone awake]
408 2011-10-10 06:27:36 * nanotube is asleep
409 2011-10-10 06:27:37 <forrestv> heh
410 2011-10-10 06:27:39 <nanotube> or should be anyway :P
411 2011-10-10 06:27:56 <Graet> most of us talk best in our sleep :P
412 2011-10-10 06:28:03 <gmaxwell> There are innocent ways to produce double spends, alas.
413 2011-10-10 06:28:04 <Scarab> haha fair enough
414 2011-10-10 06:28:42 <gmaxwell> e.g. you spend, ... but then crash... and come back up without knowing about the first spend.. then you spend again.. BZZZT.
415 2011-10-10 06:28:51 <Scarab> im attempting to update puddins cuda miner with cuda API info
416 2011-10-10 06:29:10 <Scarab> and the newest build of bitcoin
417 2011-10-10 06:29:18 <Diablo-D3> Scarab: why? its slower than diablominer.
418 2011-10-10 06:29:58 <Scarab> because i have seen cuda fly doing hashes before when properly optimized to the api
419 2011-10-10 06:30:08 <Diablo-D3> yes, and its still slower than diablominer.
420 2011-10-10 06:30:24 <Scarab> unlikely when done right
421 2011-10-10 06:30:32 <Diablo-D3> bwahaha, sure.
422 2011-10-10 06:30:45 <Scarab> how fast is a gtx 570 on diablominer
423 2011-10-10 06:30:46 <Diablo-D3> opencl and cuda shaders are both compiled by the same compiler
424 2011-10-10 06:31:02 <Scarab> right now on puddin it is like 140
425 2011-10-10 06:31:19 <Diablo-D3> its faster than 140, but I dont know how fast
426 2011-10-10 06:31:20 <Scarab> done right should be able to break 300
427 2011-10-10 06:31:29 <Diablo-D3> no one is dumb enough to use nvidia to mine
428 2011-10-10 06:31:35 <Diablo-D3> break 300? probably not
429 2011-10-10 06:31:49 <Diablo-D3> break 200? possibly.
430 2011-10-10 06:31:52 magn3ts has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
431 2011-10-10 06:31:55 <Scarab> seen it do sha 256 far faster than this
432 2011-10-10 06:32:03 <Diablo-D3> nvidia gpus have extremely shitty integer performance
433 2011-10-10 06:32:06 <midnightmagic> if a miner returns a solution to nBestHeight why doesn't bitcoind overwrite the one received from the network and begin working on the next beyond that? it'll be a vanishingly small advantage to work on a second local block but it is an advantage..?
434 2011-10-10 06:32:10 <Diablo-D3> you cant fix that, its a hardware flaw
435 2011-10-10 06:32:33 <Scarab> you can optimize around the card though
436 2011-10-10 06:32:53 <Diablo-D3> you cant optimize around instructions radeon 5/6xxx have and nvidia doesnt.
437 2011-10-10 06:32:54 <nanotube> Scarab: well, at worst, it will be a very educational exercise :)
438 2011-10-10 06:33:12 <Scarab> http://blog.cuvilib.com/2010/06/09/nvidia-cuda-difference-between-fermi-and-previous-architectures/
439 2011-10-10 06:33:30 <Diablo-D3> Scarab: fermi has no goddamned integer performance
440 2011-10-10 06:33:31 <Diablo-D3> period
441 2011-10-10 06:33:53 <Scarab> a little defensive are we
442 2011-10-10 06:33:56 <Diablo-D3> radeon 5/6xxx can do things in 1 cycle that would take 3-4 cycles on radeon 4xxx or anything nvidia.
443 2011-10-10 06:33:58 gjs278 has joined
444 2011-10-10 06:34:07 <Diablo-D3> defensive? no. you're arguing with someone who understands the hardware inside out.
445 2011-10-10 06:34:25 <Diablo-D3> everything that could have been done has already been done.
446 2011-10-10 06:34:35 <midnightmagic> Scarab: don't take his annoyance too seriously, he answers the same questions a dozen times a day with new people who keep coming in asking the same thing. I'm surprised he keeps answering at all, no offence. :)
447 2011-10-10 06:34:55 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: I dont know why I keep answering either.
448 2011-10-10 06:34:57 <Diablo-D3> its pointless.
449 2011-10-10 06:35:05 <Scarab> answering the same question doesnt make one an expert or correct
450 2011-10-10 06:35:25 huk has quit ()
451 2011-10-10 06:35:28 <Scarab> and being more of an AMD fan does not mean all other hardware sucks
452 2011-10-10 06:35:46 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: It's fighting against misapprehension. Really it's a question of promoting truth. My surprise is born of your persistence in spreading the truth. I personally am finding your stamina admirable. (no innuendo intended)
453 2011-10-10 06:36:05 <gjs278> what is the truth
454 2011-10-10 06:36:09 <lianj> ^^
455 2011-10-10 06:36:10 <Diablo-D3> writing a miner, reading nvidia's own goddamned cuda/opencl optimization guides, and also reading the goddamned programming manual for nvidia, and also spending a large amount of time trying to get more power out of nvidia.
456 2011-10-10 06:36:18 <Diablo-D3> THAT makes me an expert
457 2011-10-10 06:37:03 <nanotube> Scarab: well, why not give it a shot and see what you can accomplish. i'm no hw expert, but it is a generally accepted fact in the bitcoin community, borne out by a bunch of guys who actually wrote a bunch of miners and know their stuff. but regardless, if you can have fun and learn some stuff, go for it.
458 2011-10-10 06:37:04 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
459 2011-10-10 06:37:06 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
460 2011-10-10 06:37:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 148769 | Current Difficulty: 1689334.4045971 | Next Difficulty At Block: 149183 | Next Difficulty In: 414 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 4 hours, 42 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1529280.89462308 | Estimated Percent Change: -9.47435330379
461 2011-10-10 06:37:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":4.25937,"low":4.0104,"avg":4.110001022,"vwap":4.120537291,"vol":20718,"last_all":4.04912,"last_local":4.04912,"last":4.04912,"buy":4.05,"sell":4.076}}
462 2011-10-10 06:37:12 <Diablo-D3> miners to not depend on shaders, they do not depend on caches, or memory, or thread count or width, or even effective instruction parallelism.
463 2011-10-10 06:37:18 <midnightmagic> Scarab: no, that's on the surface correct. But I'm explaining where the irritation comes from, not where the correct answers come from.
464 2011-10-10 06:37:30 <Scarab> writing a miner writen for open cl which runs on cude is not as ever going to work as well as writing for cuda directly
465 2011-10-10 06:37:35 <Diablo-D3> they depend on how fast a processor can execute a very small number of instructions.
466 2011-10-10 06:37:53 <gjs278> there already is a cuda miner
467 2011-10-10 06:38:05 <Diablo-D3> Scarab: [02:19:27] <Diablo-D3> opencl and cuda shaders are both compiled by the same compiler
468 2011-10-10 06:38:33 <Scarab> how they are compiled is not the same as accessing the same api
469 2011-10-10 06:38:36 <Diablo-D3> the compiler has multiple language lexers.
470 2011-10-10 06:38:44 <Diablo-D3> actually, IS the same as accessing the same API
471 2011-10-10 06:38:56 <Diablo-D3> the opencl lib is a dumb wrapper for the equiv in cuda.
472 2011-10-10 06:39:02 <Scarab> then obvously you lied about studying nvidia
473 2011-10-10 06:39:25 <Diablo-D3> not at all. Ive seen exactly what the driver does.
474 2011-10-10 06:40:12 <Scarab> this is pointless, it seems obvious you have not intention of assisting or improving your own miner which is probably why is is far from the most popular
475 2011-10-10 06:40:20 <Diablo-D3> LOL
476 2011-10-10 06:40:24 <Diablo-D3> its official, Scarab is a troll
477 2011-10-10 06:41:03 <midnightmagic> Scarab: I recommend you begin writing it. When you have some results, I highly recommend coming back in and waving them around triumphantly. :) Nothing more satisfying than making people eat their words, bro, but arguing about it here is pointless.
478 2011-10-10 06:41:06 <nanotube> Scarab: why argue - if you can accomplish significant performance improvements, you'll get massive cred, so give it a shot. if you can't well, nothing lost.
479 2011-10-10 06:41:16 <nanotube> midnightmagic: ++ :)
480 2011-10-10 06:41:27 <midnightmagic> nanotube: ++ :)
481 2011-10-10 06:41:32 <midnightmagic> lol
482 2011-10-10 06:41:34 <nanotube> hehe
483 2011-10-10 06:41:52 * copumpkin yawns
484 2011-10-10 06:42:04 <Scarab> imnot in it for the credit, never take credit just for improving on someone elses work
485 2011-10-10 06:42:10 <imsaguy> copumpkin: ++ :)
486 2011-10-10 06:42:14 <Scarab> was more looking for assistance
487 2011-10-10 06:42:18 <imsaguy> (everyone else is doing it)
488 2011-10-10 06:42:19 <midnightmagic> Scarab: Why not? That's the essence of science.
489 2011-10-10 06:42:52 <Scarab> because i never wanted a name as a programmer, its something i do when bored and need to challenge myself
490 2011-10-10 06:43:28 <Scarab> worked on more than a few dozen open source projects and most people dont know who i am and i like it that way, i make my improvement and move on to the next thing
491 2011-10-10 06:44:08 <midnightmagic> Then do it for the challenge; I think you have an answer to the questions you came in here to ask. :)
492 2011-10-10 06:44:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
493 2011-10-10 06:44:37 magn3ts has joined
494 2011-10-10 06:44:59 <midnightmagic> Now go forth, and do secret science!
495 2011-10-10 06:45:13 <Scarab> you are right, it seems the answer is no, kind of disapointing for an open source community
496 2011-10-10 06:45:52 <midnightmagic> Get used to it.
497 2011-10-10 06:47:01 <midnightmagic> Also, I'm 100% certain patch submissions are welcome--somewhere!
498 2011-10-10 06:48:57 dissipate has joined
499 2011-10-10 06:51:37 <neofutur> Scarab: your problem is you dont want to submit a patch or fork it ?
500 2011-10-10 06:52:10 <coderrr> AlexWaters, sorry, was just gonna ask a question about updating the pull request, but i figured it out, kinda sucks cuz i had it pointed at v0.3.24+coderrr, so I had to actually move that branch to point to the 0.4 code
501 2011-10-10 06:52:20 <Scarab> no my problem is i am rusty at C++ been doing C# more lately
502 2011-10-10 06:52:45 <midnightmagic> ##c++ !!
503 2011-10-10 06:53:13 <neofutur> ah if you prefer C# i understand better the problem :p
504 2011-10-10 06:53:38 <AlexWaters> coderrr: I'm sorry I had to ask you to do this. Do you have a test plan for your pull so that I can test and confirm it tonight?
505 2011-10-10 06:54:28 <coderrr> AlexWaters, nah, no tests, I should probly just close that pull request cuz I know it'll never be merged and it's just wasting your time
506 2011-10-10 06:55:14 <Scarab> dont specifically prefer it, just been using it more often lately
507 2011-10-10 06:55:32 <Scarab> recent projects have called for it
508 2011-10-10 06:56:14 <AlexWaters> coderrr: if you think it's a valuable addition, and I can test it for you - there is no reason it wouldn't be merged shortly
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510 2011-10-10 06:58:41 <coderrr> AlexWaters, whether I think it's valuable or not doesn't affect whether it gets merged or not sadly :P
511 2011-10-10 07:01:07 magn3ts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
512 2011-10-10 07:04:22 <Scarab> http://upcommons.upc.edu/pfc/bitstream/2099.1/7933/1/Masteoppgave.pdf
513 2011-10-10 07:04:27 Scarab has quit (Quit: Page closed)
514 2011-10-10 07:05:08 <AlexWaters> coderrr: increased anonymity is definitely a desirable improvement for many people. I think it would be worth while to write up a test plan - and I'll do my best to get it merged. Do you think you could rebase it for QT and include unit tests / GUI test-plan?
515 2011-10-10 07:05:42 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
516 2011-10-10 07:06:15 <AlexWaters> coderrr: no need to close the pull if you don't have time for it, I won't close it if we can get an ETA
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518 2011-10-10 07:07:26 <coderrr> AlexWaters, k yea I'll look into qt and doing tests
519 2011-10-10 07:07:31 <coderrr> thx
520 2011-10-10 07:07:36 <AlexWaters> coderrr: awesome, thank you. cheers
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594 2011-10-10 09:05:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r226 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ (8 files):
595 2011-10-10 09:05:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: Some minor changes:
596 2011-10-10 09:05:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: - Introduce an EmptyMessage class.
597 2011-10-10 09:05:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: - Make Message.bitcoinSerialize() method final.
598 2011-10-10 09:05:05 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: Patch 1 of the lazy parsing patchset by Steve.
599 2011-10-10 09:08:39 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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607 2011-10-10 09:17:09 zhoutong has joined
608 2011-10-10 09:18:00 anddam has joined
609 2011-10-10 09:18:03 <anddam> hello
610 2011-10-10 09:18:49 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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622 2011-10-10 09:28:27 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchang
623 2011-10-10 09:28:29 <gribble> Error: "bc,diffchang" is not a valid command.
624 2011-10-10 09:28:33 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
625 2011-10-10 09:28:34 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -9.64276095305 % based on data since last change | -13.6282612667 % based on data for last three days
626 2011-10-10 09:30:50 <snimpy> ;;bc,timetonex
627 2011-10-10 09:30:51 <gribble> Error: "bc,timetonex" is not a valid command.
628 2011-10-10 09:30:51 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
629 2011-10-10 09:30:53 <snimpy> ;;bc,timetonext
630 2011-10-10 09:30:54 <gribble> 3 days, 2 hours, 4 minutes, and 20 seconds
631 2011-10-10 09:31:35 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
632 2011-10-10 09:31:36 zhoutong has joined
633 2011-10-10 09:31:55 ptte has joined
634 2011-10-10 09:33:11 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
635 2011-10-10 09:34:26 <anddam> what are bitcoin 0.4.0 requirements for wxwidgets version?
636 2011-10-10 09:34:27 aga_ has joined
637 2011-10-10 09:34:45 <anddam> I tried to build 0.3.22 with wxwidgets 2.8 and it failed while 2.9 builds fine
638 2011-10-10 09:35:20 <anddam> but this isn't referenced if not in the source
639 2011-10-10 09:35:37 erle- has joined
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648 2011-10-10 09:48:35 zhoutong has joined
649 2011-10-10 09:51:44 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
650 2011-10-10 09:51:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 148789 | Current Difficulty: 1689334.4045971 | Next Difficulty At Block: 149183 | Next Difficulty In: 394 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 0 hours, 59 minutes, and 58 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1529093.73556776 | Estimated Percent Change: -9.48543216742
651 2011-10-10 09:52:09 <sipa> ;;bc,spotestim
652 2011-10-10 09:52:09 <gribble> Error: "bc,spotestim" is not a valid command.
653 2011-10-10 09:52:12 <sipa> ;;bc
654 2011-10-10 09:52:13 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
655 2011-10-10 09:52:14 <sipa> ;;bc,
656 2011-10-10 09:52:14 <gribble> I do not know about 'bc,', but I do know about these similar topics: 'bbe'
657 2011-10-10 09:52:18 <sipa> ;;bc,help
658 2011-10-10 09:52:18 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,altprofit, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btceur, Alias bc,btcgbp, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,btcrub, Alias bc,btcto, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,exchb, Alias bc,fx, (2 more messages)
659 2011-10-10 09:55:19 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
660 2011-10-10 09:55:20 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -9.48543216742 % based on data since last change | -13.5081315082 % based on data for last three days
661 2011-10-10 09:56:16 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r227 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/EmptyMessage.java: Add EmptyMessage class that was missing from previous commit.
662 2011-10-10 09:59:40 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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679 2011-10-10 10:40:06 <iddo> can miners detect if the pool does backdoor merged-mining, i.e. not sharing the namecoin reward with the miners? there's a suspicion in the forums that pools are doing that right now
680 2011-10-10 10:40:45 <Ycros> iddo: sure, check the block that the pool generates
681 2011-10-10 10:41:10 <sipa> when using getwork() it can't know in advance
682 2011-10-10 10:41:19 <Ycros> maybe
683 2011-10-10 10:41:19 <Ycros> hmm
684 2011-10-10 10:41:29 terrytibbs has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
685 2011-10-10 10:41:31 <iddo> and see if the nonce in that block contains hash of recent namecoin block?
686 2011-10-10 10:42:05 Lopuz has joined
687 2011-10-10 10:43:07 <Ycros> inspect the work you're doing
688 2011-10-10 10:43:19 <Ycros> the work is the header of the block you'r etrying to solve
689 2011-10-10 10:43:26 <Ycros> you should be able to work out from that what it is
690 2011-10-10 10:43:32 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
691 2011-10-10 10:43:43 <iddo> but it's a regular bitcoin block
692 2011-10-10 10:44:01 <DrHaribo> isn't the merged mining stuff in the transactions, not in the header?
693 2011-10-10 10:44:02 <sipa> the merged mining header is in the generation coinbase
694 2011-10-10 10:44:05 wolfspraul has joined
695 2011-10-10 10:44:08 <sipa> you can't see it in the header
696 2011-10-10 10:44:18 <sipa> as it is masked via the tx hashes and the merkle tree
697 2011-10-10 10:44:50 <iddo> if it cannot be detected then miners might need to switch to merge-mining pools to avoid being cheated
698 2011-10-10 10:45:03 <Ycros> sipa: sure, but you can match up the headers you've mined on to generated blocks
699 2011-10-10 10:45:23 <Ycros> and thus a) detect which blocks your pool has generated, and b) see what's in them
700 2011-10-10 10:45:28 <sipa> Ycros: sure, afterwards
701 2011-10-10 10:45:40 <Ycros> indeed
702 2011-10-10 10:46:11 <iddo> so we can just inspect the blocks that pools generated, and see if they generated merged-mining blocks?
703 2011-10-10 10:46:11 <Ycros> it would be nice to see mining clients do this automatically, perhaps working off blockexplorer APIs
704 2011-10-10 10:46:20 <Eliel> merged mining should be easy to detect, just look at the blocks your pool finds. If they're not published, you shouldn't be using the pool anyway.
705 2011-10-10 10:46:39 <DrHaribo> Any specs somewhere on how to implement merged mining?
706 2011-10-10 10:46:44 <Ycros> of course doing this you can also detect if a pool is withholding blocks from payouts
707 2011-10-10 10:46:47 <iddo> what exactly do you look for in the block that your pool found?
708 2011-10-10 10:46:56 <Ycros> really people should be doing this already
709 2011-10-10 10:47:24 <sipa> DrHaribo: start by reading this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7219.0
710 2011-10-10 10:47:25 <Eliel> DrHaribo: I hear there is one implementation. luke-jr said it's badly implemented. I haven't looked at it myself :)
711 2011-10-10 10:47:34 <sipa> the actual implementation used by namecoin - not sure
712 2011-10-10 10:47:52 <DrHaribo> thanks :)
713 2011-10-10 10:48:11 <mrb_> heh - I was wondering about that Sleep(2000)
714 2011-10-10 10:48:13 <mrb_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/32ebde46123046d5dd41789b40578d2d43f1e7ef#src/main.cpp
715 2011-10-10 10:48:17 <mrb_> just got removed.
716 2011-10-10 10:50:23 <mrb_> that would help some of the alt chains with very fast block periods
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747 2011-10-10 11:39:29 <anddam> anyone about the wxwidgets question?
748 2011-10-10 11:39:37 ArmittK has quit (Client Quit)
749 2011-10-10 11:41:08 <sipa> anddam: the readme should explain that wx 2.9 is required
750 2011-10-10 11:41:09 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
751 2011-10-10 11:41:21 <sipa> but for 0.5, the wx gui is dropped, and we'll be switching to qt
752 2011-10-10 11:41:49 zhoutong has joined
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754 2011-10-10 11:42:33 PK has joined
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756 2011-10-10 11:46:23 ArmittK has joined
757 2011-10-10 11:47:51 <anddam> sipa: can't find it, but I'm browsing 0.3.22 source
758 2011-10-10 11:47:59 <anddam> actually I was grepping it
759 2011-10-10 11:48:05 CryptoX has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
760 2011-10-10 11:48:53 <anddam> I'll fetch 0.4.0
761 2011-10-10 11:49:22 <sipa> read doc/build-unix.txt
762 2011-10-10 11:49:57 <anddam> I think you already discussed it: why didn't you go with a Java GUI in first place?
763 2011-10-10 11:50:07 <anddam> let me rephrase
764 2011-10-10 11:50:38 <anddam> did you discuss about a Java GUI on developers' mailing list?
765 2011-10-10 11:51:13 <sipa> there's a java gui called multibit for bitcoinj
766 2011-10-10 11:51:28 <sipa> the original implementation was written by satoshi, including the wx ui
767 2011-10-10 11:51:38 <sipa> and is in C++
768 2011-10-10 11:51:56 <anddam> I see
769 2011-10-10 11:52:11 <anddam> I knew there was a java GUI but it's not in codebase
770 2011-10-10 11:52:20 <anddam> just a curiosity of mine, tho'
771 2011-10-10 11:55:23 <da2ce7> sipa is the RC1 of 0.5 out yet?
772 2011-10-10 11:56:00 <sipa> no
773 2011-10-10 12:02:57 wpl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
774 2011-10-10 12:04:37 CryptoX has joined
775 2011-10-10 12:07:00 <anddam> dmg file is uncomfortable to update from cli
776 2011-10-10 12:07:00 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
777 2011-10-10 12:07:08 wpl has joined
778 2011-10-10 12:07:25 zhoutong has joined
779 2011-10-10 12:07:30 <anddam> can a -macosx tarball or zip be added to release files?
780 2011-10-10 12:09:38 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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786 2011-10-10 12:19:42 <anddam> sipa: build-unix seems little unix-ish
787 2011-10-10 12:19:50 <anddam> and more debian-ish
788 2011-10-10 12:21:08 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
789 2011-10-10 12:21:22 <sipa> then submit a patch to improve it :)
790 2011-10-10 12:22:01 zhoutong has joined
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792 2011-10-10 12:25:21 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
793 2011-10-10 12:25:22 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -9.67248129526 % based on data since last change | -14.0872555416 % based on data for last three days
794 2011-10-10 12:25:33 <snimpy> ;;bc,diffchange
795 2011-10-10 12:25:35 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | -9.67248129526 % based on data since last change | -14.0872555416 % based on data for last three days
796 2011-10-10 12:30:16 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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799 2011-10-10 12:35:01 <anddam> sipa: is codebase github hosted?
800 2011-10-10 12:35:16 <anddam> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin ?
801 2011-10-10 12:35:19 <sipa> yes
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809 2011-10-10 12:55:43 b4epoche_ is now known as b4epoche
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819 2011-10-10 13:23:38 <luke-jr> anddam: Java sucks.
820 2011-10-10 13:23:45 iocor has joined
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822 2011-10-10 13:27:16 <da2ce7> luke-jr and Diablo-D3 are in a love-hate relationship
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827 2011-10-10 13:30:14 cenuij has joined
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830 2011-10-10 13:30:49 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you mean a hate hate relationship
831 2011-10-10 13:31:18 anddam has quit (Read error: No route to host)
832 2011-10-10 13:31:51 * da2ce7 is sure that Diablo-D3 and luke-jr have hot makup sex.
833 2011-10-10 13:32:03 <Diablo-D3> hes catholic and Im straight
834 2011-10-10 13:32:12 <da2ce7> :O
835 2011-10-10 13:32:22 <da2ce7> lawl
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839 2011-10-10 13:41:35 zhoutong has joined
840 2011-10-10 13:41:35 Daniel0108 has joined
841 2011-10-10 13:43:16 * makomk mutters and experiments with moving work generation to pushpoold some more
842 2011-10-10 13:43:20 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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846 2011-10-10 13:51:32 <diki> http://www.dartlang.org
847 2011-10-10 13:51:50 <diki> time to get started with that folks, google is planning something big with it
848 2011-10-10 13:52:15 <b4epoche_> like they were with wave?
849 2011-10-10 13:52:41 <diki> https://gist.github.com/1208618
850 2011-10-10 13:52:47 <Diablo-D3> b4epoche: wrong joke
851 2011-10-10 13:52:52 <Diablo-D3> itym "like they did with Go"
852 2011-10-10 13:53:42 <b4epoche_> Did they kill Go too?
853 2011-10-10 13:53:49 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: If you can't laugh at yourself, make fun of other people.)
854 2011-10-10 13:55:05 pickett has joined
855 2011-10-10 13:56:06 <UukGoblin> how many Mhash in a typical browser? ;-)
856 2011-10-10 13:56:17 Turingi has joined
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861 2011-10-10 14:01:09 <Diablo-D3> b4epoche_: its not like anyone uses Go
862 2011-10-10 14:01:14 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: lawlz
863 2011-10-10 14:02:03 <PK> Can webgl be used to do gpu mining? :)
864 2011-10-10 14:04:53 <UukGoblin> PK, I guess you'd need webCl. but if you were creative with shaders...
865 2011-10-10 14:04:56 paul0 has joined
866 2011-10-10 14:06:04 <PK> I wonder how many browsers support webcl though.
867 2011-10-10 14:06:37 iocor has joined
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869 2011-10-10 14:07:30 osmosis has joined
870 2011-10-10 14:07:42 <Diablo-D3> PK: webgl is just a js api wrapper for opengl
871 2011-10-10 14:07:44 <Diablo-D3> so, no
872 2011-10-10 14:08:04 Burgundy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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874 2011-10-10 14:08:29 skeledrew has joined
875 2011-10-10 14:08:50 <PK> then it's all about being creative with shaders :) mapping the key on a texture and all the old tricks.
876 2011-10-10 14:09:04 <makomk> OK, hopefully now I've fixed the reference counting bug this should now work >.>
877 2011-10-10 14:09:11 Clipse has joined
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894 2011-10-10 14:27:00 MobiusL is now known as Linux
895 2011-10-10 14:28:43 Nebuluz has joined
896 2011-10-10 14:30:08 Linux is now known as MobiusL
897 2011-10-10 14:30:30 Clipse has joined
898 2011-10-10 14:32:18 MobiusL is now known as Linux
899 2011-10-10 14:32:39 Linux is now known as MobiusL
900 2011-10-10 14:32:41 graingert has joined
901 2011-10-10 14:33:43 MobiusL is now known as LinuxKernel
902 2011-10-10 14:34:40 <graingert> nanotube: poke
903 2011-10-10 14:35:16 gp5st has left ()
904 2011-10-10 14:35:16 <nanotube> graingert: pop
905 2011-10-10 14:35:17 <nanotube> :)
906 2011-10-10 14:35:33 LinuxKernel is now known as MobiusL
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910 2011-10-10 14:39:07 <imsaguy2> pop.. tricky
911 2011-10-10 14:42:49 Lopuz has joined
912 2011-10-10 14:44:23 <makomk> https://github.com/makomk/bitcoin/tree/poolserv-work-gen https://github.com/makomk/pushpool/tree/local-work-gen - any pool owners feeling brave/foolish? ;-)
913 2011-10-10 14:45:23 EPiSKiNG- has joined
914 2011-10-10 14:47:03 copumpkin has joined
915 2011-10-10 14:49:02 <nathan7> brave, foolish or both
916 2011-10-10 14:49:05 <nathan7> [=
917 2011-10-10 14:52:20 <Graet> i'm both
918 2011-10-10 14:52:34 <Graet> i'll run it past the code team tho :P
919 2011-10-10 14:52:38 <Diablo-D3> nothing wrong with being foolish
920 2011-10-10 14:53:25 <Graet> thank you Diablo-D3 - thats the nicest thing you hyave ever said to me :)
921 2011-10-10 14:53:43 <makomk> nathan7: both, in this case. It's meant to move most of the work of work generation across to pushpool, but it's totally untested and there's an awful lot that could go wrong...
922 2011-10-10 14:55:31 <makomk> Actually, wait, don't do that *facepalm*.
923 2011-10-10 14:55:43 <shadders> what's with the local generation fad... luke's doing the same thing so am I with psj... must be hip to make yr own work these days ;)
924 2011-10-10 14:55:59 <makomk> shadders: neat, how're you doing it?
925 2011-10-10 14:57:17 <shadders> I've being doing some work on bitcoinj adding all the bits it needs... it's not a full node capable of proper verification yet so it will still rely on bitcoind to filter tx's...
926 2011-10-10 14:58:05 <shadders> haven't decided yet whether to use getmemory pool or to just listen to my bitcoind using bitcoin protocol..
927 2011-10-10 14:58:22 <makomk> I've taken the lazy approach and just got bitcoin to let me muck with the coinbase transation in the work it generates.
928 2011-10-10 14:58:56 orange-hand has joined
929 2011-10-10 14:59:34 <shadders> hmm.. I'm building the block inside psj... but like you I'm taking all the components from bitcoind.
930 2011-10-10 15:00:37 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
931 2011-10-10 15:01:00 <shadders> just finished a merkle tree implementation today that's log2(nTx) more efficient than the crazy bitcoind implementation
932 2011-10-10 15:01:23 <luke-jr> shadders: copycat :P
933 2011-10-10 15:01:34 <makomk> Yeah, I had a patch lying around somewhere to make bitcoin's merkle tree updates faster actually...
934 2011-10-10 15:01:44 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
935 2011-10-10 15:02:19 <luke-jr> my new pool software can generate 6000 works in under a second :D
936 2011-10-10 15:02:24 <shadders> luke-jr: just coz I can keep my mouth shut don't make me a copycat :p
937 2011-10-10 15:04:34 <shadders> well I don't wanna set myself up for a CH fall but going on my calcs you should be able to get 20000 sustained... and that's with java so probably several million with C
938 2011-10-10 15:04:37 bernie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
939 2011-10-10 15:05:55 <sipa> i wrote this in februari: https://svn.ulyssis.org/repos/sipa/libbtc/merklecalc.cpp
940 2011-10-10 15:06:12 <sipa> iirc it calculated 100000 merkle roots per second
941 2011-10-10 15:06:55 <shadders> actually luke I've always wanted to do internal generation but last I looked at it there was I lot I needed to know to do it that I hadn't leared yet... you mentioning gememorypool the other day got me thinking and realised I have actually covered all the essential parts since then so I got straight at it...
942 2011-10-10 15:07:19 <shadders> sipa how many nodes? and how big are the nodes?
943 2011-10-10 15:08:18 <shadders> luke-jr: then your mentioned yr secret project which pissed me off coz I thought I was gonna be first past the post
944 2011-10-10 15:08:46 <sipa> shadders: can't remember, i'd need to try running it again
945 2011-10-10 15:10:01 <makomk> It looks like I'm limited to 3000 getworks/sec with this. Oh well.
946 2011-10-10 15:10:44 <makomk> (Unfortunately it also doesn't provide midstate currently, which will probably break some mining software.)
947 2011-10-10 15:11:29 <shadders> I'm luke can tell you which miner it breaks ;)
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952 2011-10-10 15:15:27 <sipa> shadders: 100 transactions (including coinbase), 65000 merkle roots per second cpu time on a C2D 6400 @ 2.16 GHz
953 2011-10-10 15:15:50 danbri has joined
954 2011-10-10 15:16:11 <shadders> I see yr markdirty... does differential updates to the tree?
955 2011-10-10 15:16:43 <sipa> yes
956 2011-10-10 15:17:20 <shadders> makes a huge difference
957 2011-10-10 15:17:28 <sipa> sure... O(log n) vs. O(n)
958 2011-10-10 15:17:59 <shadders> 99 hashes vs 7
959 2011-10-10 15:18:41 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
960 2011-10-10 15:21:57 Disposition1 has joined
961 2011-10-10 15:21:59 <shadders> I won't dare to suggest that's why luke-jr's only getting 6k/sec. If it is he should probably deny it :p
962 2011-10-10 15:22:44 <sipa> there are other things to do as well, like maintaining the transactions themselves
963 2011-10-10 15:22:54 <sipa> not sure what is included in that number
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965 2011-10-10 15:24:10 <shadders> I'm relying on bitcoind to do that part... bitcoinj is a fair way off verification etc...
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970 2011-10-10 15:27:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * reab61cd / (doc/build-unix.txt src/bitcoinrpc.cpp): Merge branch 'master' of github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin - http://git.io/NGHalg
971 2011-10-10 15:27:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * rb50ac8f / (bitcoin-qt.pro contrib/create_osx_dmg.sh src/makefile.osx):
972 2011-10-10 15:27:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Mac OSX release process changes
973 2011-10-10 15:27:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Rename App Bundle "Bitcoin-Qt.app" instead of "Bitcoin Qt" for
974 2011-10-10 15:27:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: consistency with Windows/Linux.
975 2011-10-10 15:27:16 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Update create_osx_dmg.sh script to use macdeployqt tool.
976 2011-10-10 15:27:16 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Add ifdef STATIC to makefile.osx to build bitcoind static or dynamic. - http://git.io/OD9jRw
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981 2011-10-10 15:31:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * rab877a2 / (3 files in 3 dirs):
982 2011-10-10 15:31:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #576 from luke-jr/bitcoind_build_improvements
983 2011-10-10 15:31:52 <CIA-101> bitcoin: bitcoind build improvements - http://git.io/NBDL9g
984 2011-10-10 15:32:20 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * re99b8ea / src/qt/locale/bitcoin_es.ts :
985 2011-10-10 15:32:20 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #577 from paraipanakos/master
986 2011-10-10 15:32:20 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Spanish translation for new qt gui - http://git.io/k01z2A
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998 2011-10-10 15:37:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * ref49d8a / bitcoin-qt.pro : Add spanish translation to TRANSLATIONS - http://git.io/Cssfiw
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1003 2011-10-10 15:46:14 <luke-jr> makomk: cgminer and DM can't handle midstate missing yet (it's being removed from bitcoind tho)
1004 2011-10-10 15:46:25 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1005 2011-10-10 15:46:58 <luke-jr> shadders: I'm only *trying* to do 6k ;)
1006 2011-10-10 15:47:37 <luke-jr> hence *under* a second
1007 2011-10-10 15:48:04 Lopuz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1008 2011-10-10 15:50:36 <makomk> Ah, OK.
1009 2011-10-10 15:51:07 <shadders> k well post when you've got real stats so we can all get our works out and see who's got the biggest
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1012 2011-10-10 15:55:06 <makomk> Unfortunately, cgminer seems to want a different version of jansson to pushpoold...
1013 2011-10-10 15:55:50 <makomk> Even more annoyingly, although it has a built-in copy of jansson, there's no way to tell it not to use the system one.
1014 2011-10-10 15:56:09 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: whats up with 0.5.0 release process here?
1015 2011-10-10 15:56:24 <gavinandresen> I just tagged the tree rc1
1016 2011-10-10 15:56:28 <BlueMatt> (also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/571 should be considered a blocker)
1017 2011-10-10 15:56:58 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: anybody reproduce?
1018 2011-10-10 15:57:15 <gavinandresen> (I can try it on OSX....)
1019 2011-10-10 15:57:52 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: it was reported here a while ago (dont remember who) and I was able to reproduce right away
1020 2011-10-10 15:57:57 <BlueMatt> so afaik it effects all win32 users...
1021 2011-10-10 15:58:10 TheZimm has joined
1022 2011-10-10 15:58:33 <b4epoche_> seems like it would also have to affect osx too
1023 2011-10-10 15:58:46 <gavinandresen> If it doesn't happen on Linux/Mac, then we can release rc1 binaries on those platforms, and spin an rc2 with a fix for windows. I want release testing to start
1024 2011-10-10 15:59:14 <luke-jr> shadders: also, mine is just Python right now
1025 2011-10-10 15:59:17 <b4epoche_> is it only 0.5rc1? did wallet locking code change?
1026 2011-10-10 15:59:37 <BlueMatt> well release of win32 aint gonna happen till friday at least if you are looking for gitian releases or builds from me (damn miderm on thurs)
1027 2011-10-10 16:00:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: pretty sure the gitian stuff is all broken right now anyway
1028 2011-10-10 16:00:14 <luke-jr> at least, last I looked the gitian descriptors still tried to build wx
1029 2011-10-10 16:00:29 louigi has joined
1030 2011-10-10 16:00:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, because people like you change the makefiles dramatically without updating gitian files...
1031 2011-10-10 16:00:42 <BlueMatt> well actually you didnt do that...
1032 2011-10-10 16:00:45 <b4epoche_> gavinandresen: do you know anything about writing Cocoa/ObjC code?
1033 2011-10-10 16:00:59 <BlueMatt> gavin did and all the qt stuff just fucked gitian and ignore it...
1034 2011-10-10 16:01:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I did update the gitian file for my makefile change
1035 2011-10-10 16:01:21 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: nope
1036 2011-10-10 16:01:23 <louigi> hey guys, I see that some sites on the web track block count and payment confirmations. Is there any public API for web developers to use?
1037 2011-10-10 16:01:35 <luke-jr> louigi: JSON-RPC
1038 2011-10-10 16:01:45 <louigi> luke-jr, hey
1039 2011-10-10 16:01:51 <louigi> btw, did you get those files?
1040 2011-10-10 16:01:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no worries, don't stress out...
1041 2011-10-10 16:01:54 <b4epoche_> I've pretty much finished the wallet locking Cocoa GUI but would like someone to look it over
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1043 2011-10-10 16:02:39 <b4epoche_> are there outward facing (GUI) changes planned in 0.5?
1044 2011-10-10 16:02:50 <luke-jr> louigi: yes
1045 2011-10-10 16:02:51 <BlueMatt> b4epoche: a lot...
1046 2011-10-10 16:03:00 <sipa> i'd say about 100.0%
1047 2011-10-10 16:03:13 <luke-jr> louigi: the problem was semi-diagnosed and discussed in here, but I don't think anyone ever implemented the fix
1048 2011-10-10 16:03:13 <gavinandresen> yes, 100% would be about right.
1049 2011-10-10 16:03:23 <louigi> luke-jr, what was the problem?
1050 2011-10-10 16:03:30 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: everything
1051 2011-10-10 16:03:51 <b4epoche_> I'm talking functionality, not appearance
1052 2011-10-10 16:03:55 <luke-jr> louigi: apparently bitcoind & co can't survive a system crash when it's accepting a block
1053 2011-10-10 16:04:16 <luke-jr> b4epoche_: bitcoin-qt has sendmany
1054 2011-10-10 16:04:24 <sipa> and export to csv
1055 2011-10-10 16:04:38 <louigi> luke-jr, if I regularly backup the blockcount files can I just replace broken files with backups without any harm to the wallet?
1056 2011-10-10 16:05:06 huk has joined
1057 2011-10-10 16:05:30 * BlueMatt just feels like bitcoin's whole setup is just getting messier and messier...
1058 2011-10-10 16:06:11 <luke-jr> louigi: bitcoind must not be running when you backup and restore
1059 2011-10-10 16:06:17 <sipa> that was inevitable when we switched to Qt without a unified build system
1060 2011-10-10 16:06:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: The GUI is much easier to build now.
1061 2011-10-10 16:06:31 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238])
1062 2011-10-10 16:06:38 <gavinandresen> I'm very tempted to write a qmake .pro file for bitcoind....
1063 2011-10-10 16:06:39 Lopuz has joined
1064 2011-10-10 16:06:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: please do
1065 2011-10-10 16:06:54 <gavinandresen> ... but makefiles are lowest-common-denominator
1066 2011-10-10 16:06:56 <BlueMatt> having two completely separate build systems is just stupid...
1067 2011-10-10 16:07:01 <gavinandresen> agreed
1068 2011-10-10 16:07:26 <louigi> luke-jr, understood. I am asking because on sourceforge site it is adviced AGAINST using their blockcount files with the existing wallet. Why is that?
1069 2011-10-10 16:07:37 <gavinandresen> ... and patches welcome.... build systems aren't in the "make the network more secure or stable" category, so they're not high priority
1070 2011-10-10 16:07:44 <b4epoche_> any tips for building with qt on osx?
1071 2011-10-10 16:08:04 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: use macports
1072 2011-10-10 16:08:19 * b4epoche_ does
1073 2011-10-10 16:08:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: qmake is a standalone package in debian/ubuntu, so I would say it would be fine (whereas downloading all of qt-dev for building would be a problem IMHO)
1074 2011-10-10 16:08:54 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: I answered a question on bitcoin.stackexchange.com RE: building on mac
1075 2011-10-10 16:08:55 <luke-jr> louigi: uh, no?
1076 2011-10-10 16:09:12 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks, didn't know that
1077 2011-10-10 16:09:27 <sipa> how about mingw, osx, bsd, fedora, ...?
1078 2011-10-10 16:09:27 <BlueMatt> p
1079 2011-10-10 16:09:46 <gavinandresen> Anybody here know a lot more about qt .pro files than I do? It'll take me several hours to learn everything i need to know to create a bitcoind.pro ....
1080 2011-10-10 16:09:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: in case you missed it, if bitcoin crashes whilest accepting a block, it irreversibly corrupts the block chain file and never recovers
1081 2011-10-10 16:10:04 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: qmake is pretty simple, actually
1082 2011-10-10 16:10:08 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: regression or has that always been true?
1083 2011-10-10 16:10:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: always been true
1084 2011-10-10 16:10:20 <luke-jr> could probably make bitcoin-qt.pro into a bitcoin.pro with GUI=qt or something even
1085 2011-10-10 16:10:23 <louigi> luke-jr, here is the quote: If you have a wallet with unprocessed transactions, the client may not recognize them. Thus, the above warning: Only use these data files IF YOU DO NOT ALREADY HAVE A WALLET.
1086 2011-10-10 16:10:37 * BlueMatt thinks luke-jr's suggestion would be even better
1087 2011-10-10 16:10:39 <luke-jr> louigi: no idea
1088 2011-10-10 16:10:43 <louigi> k
1089 2011-10-10 16:10:44 <BlueMatt> two makefiles sucks, one .pro would be best
1090 2011-10-10 16:10:55 <luke-jr> IMO best would be automake/autoconf tho
1091 2011-10-10 16:11:09 <BlueMatt> well no one stepped up to do that
1092 2011-10-10 16:11:13 <luke-jr> but automake/autoconf devs are rare â¹
1093 2011-10-10 16:11:17 <BlueMatt> and now we have qmake pro file that works
1094 2011-10-10 16:11:20 <sipa> agree, a *maintained* automake solution would be preferrab;e
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1096 2011-10-10 16:13:07 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Oh shi...)
1097 2011-10-10 16:13:08 * BlueMatt just got bitcoin-qt xcompiled and working running in wine...the only thing is if you compile -O2 it shits everywhere, -O0 works...?
1098 2011-10-10 16:13:22 <sipa> that shouldn't be
1099 2011-10-10 16:13:22 Lolcust has joined
1100 2011-10-10 16:13:30 zhoutong has joined
1101 2011-10-10 16:13:34 <BlueMatt> agreed
1102 2011-10-10 16:16:07 <BlueMatt> oh great, now bitcoin-qt.exe is 19MB...
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1106 2011-10-10 16:19:31 <louigi> luke-jr, can this crash thing be fixed theoretically?
1107 2011-10-10 16:21:19 <gavinandresen> 0.5rc1 announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47586
1108 2011-10-10 16:23:02 <ThomasV> cool
1109 2011-10-10 16:23:22 <sipa> gavinandresen: no chance for getting showwallet in, even without removeprivkey if that's controversial?
1110 2011-10-10 16:23:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, we're feature-frozen.
1111 2011-10-10 16:23:50 <freewil> omg listsinceblock!
1112 2011-10-10 16:23:51 <kinlo> I'd vote for that too
1113 2011-10-10 16:24:07 <kinlo> would be nice to have them in
1114 2011-10-10 16:24:30 <gavinandresen> sipa: I want to get into the habit of regular releases, and there is PLENTY in this one!
1115 2011-10-10 16:24:37 <sipa> ok, i like that idea
1116 2011-10-10 16:24:50 <BlueMatt> (as long as build system is able to support it)
1117 2011-10-10 16:24:52 <kinlo> is it just my subjective view on things or is the merge window very short?
1118 2011-10-10 16:25:28 <sipa> on the good side, there will soon be a new merge window :)
1119 2011-10-10 16:25:36 <gavinandresen> exactly
1120 2011-10-10 16:25:45 <kinlo> heh, if releases are going out that fast...
1121 2011-10-10 16:25:56 <BlueMatt> also, gavinandresen, is it just me who feels like shit is getting committed that is just messy and is just making stuff more and more complicated for no reason?
1122 2011-10-10 16:26:05 <gavinandresen> I think it is just you
1123 2011-10-10 16:26:10 <BlueMatt> oh, ok
1124 2011-10-10 16:26:11 <gavinandresen> (what do other people think?)
1125 2011-10-10 16:26:25 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: anything in particular you don't like?
1126 2011-10-10 16:26:48 <gavinandresen> I THINK everything added has a reason, and there were several clean-up fixes included....
1127 2011-10-10 16:26:58 <BlueMatt> not that I dont like, but generally the rate of pulls without enough discussion, eg https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/573 Mostly-ACK followed by a pull?
1128 2011-10-10 16:26:58 <gavinandresen> (like getting rid of deprecated RPC methods)
1129 2011-10-10 16:27:11 <BlueMatt> seems hasty to me
1130 2011-10-10 16:27:24 <sipa> i kinda agree with BlueMatt here
1131 2011-10-10 16:27:34 <sipa> (in this particular case)
1132 2011-10-10 16:27:41 <gavinandresen> That one WAS hasty, but I'm finding it hard to generate discussion before pulling.
1133 2011-10-10 16:27:58 <sipa> also true
1134 2011-10-10 16:28:01 <BlueMatt> well that is also a problem
1135 2011-10-10 16:28:17 <kinlo> what's the proper way to have the discussion?
1136 2011-10-10 16:28:21 <gavinandresen> Ideally, there's general consensus that something like getmemorypool is a good idea, etc etc... but if you look, there was very little discussion and NO dissent on the forums for that one. So I pulled it.
1137 2011-10-10 16:28:30 <BlueMatt> also, boost's constant strict-aliasing rule-breaking warnings are fairly annoying...
1138 2011-10-10 16:28:46 <BlueMatt> oh, I have no problem with getmemorypool
1139 2011-10-10 16:29:01 <b4epoche_> sh*t!
1140 2011-10-10 16:29:03 <BlueMatt> but that particular case, its a ton more code to do something that is just "cleaner"
1141 2011-10-10 16:29:07 <b4epoche_> qt4 build failed
1142 2011-10-10 16:29:22 <gavinandresen> I pulled the mostly-ACK because it was a change to the new getmemorypool RPC api, and not breaking apis if you can help it is a good thing
1143 2011-10-10 16:29:46 <BlueMatt> so...maybe we just need more people to start ack-ing stuff?
1144 2011-10-10 16:29:56 AStove has joined
1145 2011-10-10 16:30:01 <gavinandresen> yes, that would be good
1146 2011-10-10 16:30:14 <sipa> also, the dev community seems split
1147 2011-10-10 16:30:23 <sipa> some people on github, some on the mailinglist, some on the forum
1148 2011-10-10 16:30:28 <sipa> and far from everyone everywhere
1149 2011-10-10 16:30:46 <louigi> sipa, seems to me time might fix this situation
1150 2011-10-10 16:30:55 <sipa> probably
1151 2011-10-10 16:30:59 <louigi> every young community has this
1152 2011-10-10 16:31:03 <louigi> from my experience
1153 2011-10-10 16:31:16 <BlueMatt> anyway, got to go...maybe Ill be back on later but damn hist midterm is screwing me...bitcoin-qt xcompile doesnt seem like its gonna be to bad in the end, but I need to find time to do it...also gavin what is the status with your gitian-capabilities
1154 2011-10-10 16:31:19 <BlueMatt> sipa as well there?
1155 2011-10-10 16:31:49 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I've got the hardware, will be doing a unix gitian 0.5 build this afternoon I hope
1156 2011-10-10 16:32:06 <BlueMatt> heh, have fun getting the current gitian scripts working...
1157 2011-10-10 16:32:06 terrytib is now known as terrytibbs
1158 2011-10-10 16:32:08 <gavinandresen> ... but I don't know nuthin about mingw cross-compiling.....
1159 2011-10-10 16:32:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: sorry, my desktop is still not fully reinstalled
1160 2011-10-10 16:32:18 <sipa> and my laptop isn't capable
1161 2011-10-10 16:32:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: ah, ok just wondered...would be nice to actually do a gitian build w/ 0.5
1162 2011-10-10 16:32:53 louigi has left ("Leaving")
1163 2011-10-10 16:32:58 <makomk> OK, midstate generation done, cgminer appears happy... *grin*
1164 2011-10-10 16:33:17 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1165 2011-10-10 16:33:28 <sipa> gavinandresen: assuming the win32 bug gets fixed tomorrow and no further blocking bugs... when is 0.5 final?
1166 2011-10-10 16:33:32 <freewil> im looking at this new rpc call 'listsinceblock': is there a way to tell what block a given transaction is in?
1167 2011-10-10 16:33:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: a week or two.
1168 2011-10-10 16:34:51 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
1169 2011-10-10 16:36:27 <freewil> lol wut is this
1170 2011-10-10 16:36:28 <freewil> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.5.0rc1/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp#L1302
1171 2011-10-10 16:37:07 asdfasd has joined
1172 2011-10-10 16:37:17 <b4epoche_> gavinandresen: what osx version you have?
1173 2011-10-10 16:37:25 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: 10.6
1174 2011-10-10 16:37:39 <b4epoche_> hmm...
1175 2011-10-10 16:37:48 <b4epoche_> qt4 is not liking 10.7
1176 2011-10-10 16:38:14 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: can't help you there, I'm not a 10.7 or qt4 expert
1177 2011-10-10 16:38:30 <BlueMatt-mobile> freewil its stuff like that tsar I'm taking about, bitcoin is a, mess
1178 2011-10-10 16:38:56 <b4epoche_> gavinandresen: Yea, I figured⦠I'll try to figure out what's up and document the solution
1179 2011-10-10 16:38:58 <BlueMatt-mobile> Also swype sucks
1180 2011-10-10 16:39:12 <freewil> ha
1181 2011-10-10 16:39:19 <freewil> im assuming that was some sort of debug message
1182 2011-10-10 16:39:20 <gavinandresen> b4epoche_: I do compile my macports a little differently-- compile everything single-architecture i386, to avoid problems with "this port doesn't support x86_64" and to make the compiles faster/smaller.
1183 2011-10-10 16:39:24 <freewil> not real helpful
1184 2011-10-10 16:39:37 <imsaguy2> gavinandresen, how do you feel about accept a patch to add a commandline argument to allow a person to specify where their wallet.dat file is (not the whole data dir) so a person can have it on a truecrypt/usb/etc without having to store/encrypt the blockchain with it?
1185 2011-10-10 16:39:42 <b4epoche_> gavinandresen: I often do the same
1186 2011-10-10 16:39:53 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1187 2011-10-10 16:39:56 <freewil> imsaguy, +1
1188 2011-10-10 16:40:09 <gavinandresen> freewil BlueMatt-mobile : patches welcome, especially tiny little ones that improve RPC error messages that should be more descriptive
1189 2011-10-10 16:40:59 <imsaguy2> brb
1190 2011-10-10 16:41:00 <gavinandresen> imsaguy2: as long as it remains impossible to shoot yourself in the foot by running it on a network-attached drive that you accidently run two copies of bitcoin against, sure....
1191 2011-10-10 16:41:08 * BlueMatt-mobile was still thinking more of a grand rearching but small stuff is also a mess
1192 2011-10-10 16:41:15 Kolky has joined
1193 2011-10-10 16:41:56 <BlueMatt-mobile> and again who the hell decided it was a good idea to put enter right below backspace
1194 2011-10-10 16:42:10 TheZimm has joined
1195 2011-10-10 16:42:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-mobile: now you're just procrastinating, and I'm going to stop talking to you so you can be a good responsible history-learning person.
1196 2011-10-10 16:42:27 CounterStrike has joined
1197 2011-10-10 16:42:49 <BlueMatt-mobile> I'm walking to lunch not much I could be doing
1198 2011-10-10 16:43:03 <gavinandresen> mmmm, lunch, good idea.....
1199 2011-10-10 16:43:46 <BlueMatt-mobile> Otoh most is the previous conversion was from my compsci lect
1200 2011-10-10 16:44:19 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Quit: BlueMatt)
1201 2011-10-10 16:45:25 <nanotube> gavinandresen: so basically you're saying... stuff a lockfile next to the wallet, eh? :)
1202 2011-10-10 16:45:53 TheZimm has quit (Client Quit)
1203 2011-10-10 16:46:03 <gavinandresen> nanotube: there is already a lockfile in the datadir, but yes, do something smart
1204 2011-10-10 16:46:37 <gavinandresen> (just reading wallet.dat from a different path is the easy-but-dumb way)
1205 2011-10-10 16:46:53 <nanotube> right, i know there's a lockfile in datadir. :) now question is... is there a place in the wallet.dat file itself to put a lock flag?
1206 2011-10-10 16:47:10 <nanotube> so we don't have to have two lockfiles one for blockchain-et-al and one for wallet.
1207 2011-10-10 16:48:09 <freewil> that sounds dangerous... using the wallet.data file itself as a lockfile?
1208 2011-10-10 16:48:11 <nanotube> btw, good point on the foot shooting generally - i didn't think of that before you mentioned it. :)
1209 2011-10-10 16:48:52 <nanotube> freewil: well, wallet is a database... so just sticking a flag in there somewhere that says "this file is being used" should work. that said... if bitcoin crashes
1210 2011-10-10 16:48:58 <nanotube> that'll leave wallet in perma-locked state
1211 2011-10-10 16:49:02 <nanotube> which would be a pain
1212 2011-10-10 16:49:06 <nanotube> requiring editing the db
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1214 2011-10-10 16:49:43 <freewil> nanotube, but what if two instances at the same time try to update the flag?
1215 2011-10-10 16:49:45 <nanotube> well, we'll let imsaguy2 figure it out :D
1216 2011-10-10 16:50:02 <nanotube> freewil: same thing as if two instances try to create the lock file at the same time
1217 2011-10-10 16:50:05 <nanotube> one of them will win. :)
1218 2011-10-10 16:50:27 <freewil> well i guess, is the check and update atomic?
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1220 2011-10-10 16:50:49 <gavinandresen> The -datadir lock mechanism works nicely (boost has solved all of the 'what if it crashes' problems in a cross-platform way for us), extending that is probably the right thing to do
1221 2011-10-10 16:51:03 <gavinandresen> (if wallet is not in datadir, write a second lockfile....)
1222 2011-10-10 16:51:34 Cokein has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1223 2011-10-10 16:52:13 <nanotube> yea probably beats reinventing the wheel
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1235 2011-10-10 16:59:25 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 300000000 94035.9021742
1236 2011-10-10 16:59:25 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 94035.9021742, is 22 minutes and 26 seconds
1237 2011-10-10 16:59:44 CounterStrike has quit ()
1238 2011-10-10 17:00:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: just use a second lockfile in every case
1239 2011-10-10 17:03:16 <imsaguy2> its not like lockfile's are that expensive
1240 2011-10-10 17:03:20 <imsaguy2> it'd be an edge case
1241 2011-10-10 17:03:24 <imsaguy2> not every user is going to use it
1242 2011-10-10 17:03:48 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1243 2011-10-10 17:04:32 <freewil> sure would make it easier to share the blockchain across different wallets
1244 2011-10-10 17:04:43 <imsaguy2> yes
1245 2011-10-10 17:04:49 gjs278 has joined
1246 2011-10-10 17:05:10 <imsaguy2> and if both datadir and wallet location are specified, let wallet location win
1247 2011-10-10 17:05:27 <freewil> yes
1248 2011-10-10 17:05:32 <Graet> yes
1249 2011-10-10 17:05:46 <imsaguy2> ok, that will be tonight's project
1250 2011-10-10 17:05:48 <sipa> "win" ?
1251 2011-10-10 17:05:54 strat-o-caster has joined
1252 2011-10-10 17:06:15 <imsaguy2> if you specify both a datadir and a wallet location, it will use the wallet location
1253 2011-10-10 17:06:25 <sipa> what else?
1254 2011-10-10 17:06:35 <sipa> use the datadir for the data, use the walletdir for the wallet
1255 2011-10-10 17:06:57 <sipa> the question is whether you do it within the same database environnement or not
1256 2011-10-10 17:07:03 <strat-o-caster> How about the bitcoin technology as a voting system? https://github.com/rbragg/PeerElect
1257 2011-10-10 17:07:04 <sipa> i.e., whether you use the same db log files
1258 2011-10-10 17:07:09 <luke-jr> yay, I think I have merged mining working on Eligius :P
1259 2011-10-10 17:07:20 <strat-o-caster> I'm not a good enough developer for this...
1260 2011-10-10 17:07:30 <sipa> bitcoin is a voting system
1261 2011-10-10 17:07:41 <luke-jr> strat-o-caster: how do you prevent someone from voting twice?
1262 2011-10-10 17:07:48 <sipa> miners vote for transactions and blocks with their cpu/gpu power
1263 2011-10-10 17:08:08 asdfasd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1264 2011-10-10 17:08:11 <imsaguy2> I'd lean towards two seperate sets of log files
1265 2011-10-10 17:08:17 <strat-o-caster> read on the github my thoughts... too much for this quick chat...
1266 2011-10-10 17:09:02 Lolcust- is now known as Lolcust
1267 2011-10-10 17:09:40 BlueMatt has joined
1268 2011-10-10 17:09:53 <strat-o-caster> Also, too much for me to develop. I am not as good as all of you at this kind of thing... just a thought...
1269 2011-10-10 17:10:05 abragin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1270 2011-10-10 17:10:14 <strat-o-caster> I am a simple musician...
1271 2011-10-10 17:10:17 <luke-jr> fwiw, people are already reporting real-world problems with merged-mining-proxy
1272 2011-10-10 17:12:11 abragin has joined
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1276 2011-10-10 17:20:25 <strat-o-caster> sipa: yes, your right, it is! with just a few tweeks, it could be a real along-side simple voting system.
1277 2011-10-10 17:21:05 larsivi has joined
1278 2011-10-10 17:21:07 <sipa> strat-o-caster: i'm not sure you want voting proportional to computation power, for anything but the bitcoin chain itself
1279 2011-10-10 17:21:28 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: hey, aren't you going to merge the latest fixes from the qt branch? :x
1280 2011-10-10 17:22:29 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about fixes on the qt branch. Poke the fixers and tell them to ask me to pull
1281 2011-10-10 17:22:53 <luke-jr> sigh
1282 2011-10-10 17:26:58 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1286 2011-10-10 17:28:43 <strat-o-caster> sipa: your right, I don't want it to be proportional to computation power! that would be unfair. I have a simple outline here https://github.com/rbragg/PeerElect. Ov course this would never take place of voting as of today yet...
1287 2011-10-10 17:29:43 <sipa> strat-o-caster: afaik there are far better (e.g., more anonymous) ways to do digital voting
1288 2011-10-10 17:30:01 <strat-o-caster> forget about the concept of the minors. there would be no need for that.
1289 2011-10-10 17:30:50 <nathan7> anonymous voting without the possibility of double-voting is impossible, no?
1290 2011-10-10 17:31:01 <sipa> how can you do decentralized voting? who makes sure no-one votes twice?
1291 2011-10-10 17:31:48 <gmaxwell> Timecube elections.
1292 2011-10-10 17:32:15 <strat-o-caster> Take a read through my thoughts at my simple github page. It addresses these
1293 2011-10-10 17:32:47 hippich has joined
1294 2011-10-10 17:32:53 <gmaxwell> It does?"
1295 2011-10-10 17:33:00 <gmaxwell> "In order for any peer to vote, each peer would have to register with the creator of the election by means outside the scope of this project."
1296 2011-10-10 17:33:17 <gmaxwell> Sounds like a complete copout on the only technically difficult part.
1297 2011-10-10 17:33:20 <sipa> ok, so it's just not decentralized
1298 2011-10-10 17:33:30 <strat-o-caster> It's not perfect, but the burdon is on the person who creates the vote...
1299 2011-10-10 17:33:45 <strat-o-caster> yes it is
1300 2011-10-10 17:34:06 <sipa> you need a central authority to give out the voting rights
1301 2011-10-10 17:34:15 <strat-o-caster> It does not solve all the problems today, but many...
1302 2011-10-10 17:34:18 <gmaxwell> You also don't describe at all how the blinding is to workâ but I guess thats okay because there are solutions for that, even if you don't know about them.
1303 2011-10-10 17:34:29 <gmaxwell> It doesn't solve anything because it doesn't exist.
1304 2011-10-10 17:35:01 <strat-o-caster> Of course it does not exists yet, what does that mean?
1305 2011-10-10 17:36:03 <gmaxwell> well, if it doesn't exist it doesn't solve anything. It's not worth any of my attention while it is pure vaporâ I can't make any useful suggestions or evaluate it against alternatives.
1306 2011-10-10 17:36:04 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1308 2011-10-10 17:36:33 <strat-o-caster> Let me put out front, I am looking for peer review! this does not exists yet. It is just a thought.
1309 2011-10-10 17:37:00 <strat-o-caster> I welcome criticism!
1310 2011-10-10 17:37:11 zhoutong has joined
1311 2011-10-10 17:37:13 <gmaxwell> I think it's too vague at this point to get more review that you've just recieved from us.
1312 2011-10-10 17:38:02 <strat-o-caster> I am not a developer, and this is not developed. Just a thought. sorry. I will go elsewhere.
1313 2011-10-10 17:38:10 strat-o-caster has left ()
1314 2011-10-10 17:38:11 <gmaxwell> strat-o-caster: look up chaumian blinding for how you can actually accomplish what you've described.
1315 2011-10-10 17:38:18 <gmaxwell> Oh well.
1316 2011-10-10 17:38:25 <gmaxwell> Am I mean?
1317 2011-10-10 17:40:39 [Tycho] has joined
1318 2011-10-10 17:41:25 <makomk> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47609.0 - another boredom-relief project completed. Wonder if any pools will use it...
1319 2011-10-10 17:41:52 <[Tycho]> Hello.
1320 2011-10-10 17:44:13 Nesetalis has quit (Quit: <+shponka> how does one scissor with four people <+shponka> hypercube tribadism)
1321 2011-10-10 17:44:52 <makomk> Hiya Tycho. Don't suppose you're in the process of writing/have written a way of generating getwork responses outside of bitcoind? It seems to be an oddly popular thing to code...
1322 2011-10-10 17:45:26 <[Tycho]> Generating new work for miners ?
1323 2011-10-10 17:45:40 <makomk> Yep.
1324 2011-10-10 17:45:49 zapnap has joined
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1326 2011-10-10 17:49:27 cenuij has joined
1327 2011-10-10 17:49:28 <[Tycho]> No. It's a good idea, but my bitcoind optimizations allow me to use it.
1328 2011-10-10 17:50:30 <TD[gone]> makomk: i think shadders is implementing that as well
1329 2011-10-10 17:50:31 <makomk> Ah, I see. Makes sense.
1330 2011-10-10 17:50:49 <strat-o-caster> Hi, I need to go for a while on another channel. Thanks for the invite! Lots of issues, lots of solutions. peace!
1331 2011-10-10 17:50:50 TD[gone] is now known as TD
1332 2011-10-10 17:50:57 strat-o-caster has left ()
1333 2011-10-10 17:51:13 <makomk> TD: yeah, he mentioned he was when I talked about it earlier, hence my comment about it being oddly popular.
1334 2011-10-10 17:52:14 <TD> well, i guess it makes large pools cheaper to run
1335 2011-10-10 17:52:29 <TD> and it's an obvious Next Step along with the merged mining stuff
1336 2011-10-10 17:52:41 <TD> although i kind of wish the p2pool stuff would take off more
1337 2011-10-10 17:52:48 <TD> that's how things should work
1338 2011-10-10 17:53:02 <makomk> Yeah, I'm guessing it might have something to do with merged mining; certainly that's what inspired me.
1339 2011-10-10 17:53:17 <TD> i'm glad to see the merged mining stuff take off
1340 2011-10-10 17:53:22 <TD> that's what i wanted when i wrote the wiki page.
1341 2011-10-10 17:54:05 * nathan7 eats TD's face
1342 2011-10-10 17:55:00 lyspooner has joined
1343 2011-10-10 17:55:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: missed these https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/578
1344 2011-10-10 17:55:13 <luke-jr> (I missed them, that is)
1345 2011-10-10 17:56:50 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bitcoind_build_improvements * ra1e0bb5a09be bitcoind-personal/src/makefile.unix: Allow users to customize CXX, CXXFLAGS, and LDFLAGS normally
1346 2011-10-10 18:03:20 iocor has joined
1347 2011-10-10 18:06:24 <makomk> "[ERROR] Failed to execute goal on project bitcoin-poolserverj: Could not resolve dependencies for project com.shadworld:bitcoin-poolserverj:jar:0.0.2-SNAPSHOT" - I really hate Java...
1348 2011-10-10 18:07:06 <urstroyer> you get that on execute @makomk?
1349 2011-10-10 18:07:42 eumesmo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1350 2011-10-10 18:08:03 <makomk> Nope, compile.
1351 2011-10-10 18:09:19 <TD> makomk: which dependency did it fail to get?
1352 2011-10-10 18:09:56 <diki> makomk:i hate python more
1353 2011-10-10 18:10:02 <makomk> "Could not find artifact com.shadworld:shadtools-sql:jar:0.0.1-SNAPSHOT" - I think?
1354 2011-10-10 18:10:18 Cokein is now known as 2!~kvirc@host114-91-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it|Cokein
1355 2011-10-10 18:12:01 <TD> hmm not sure. maybe his website is down
1356 2011-10-10 18:13:27 <makomk> It's meant to be a local package in the hg repository. Turns out I wasn't installing it into Maven's repository correctly.
1357 2011-10-10 18:13:45 erus` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1358 2011-10-10 18:14:29 eumesmo has joined
1359 2011-10-10 18:14:38 erus` has joined
1360 2011-10-10 18:16:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r3ee9a470ddf4 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (8 files): net-p2p/bitcoind: Bugfix: typo in BOOST_INC var name :p
1361 2011-10-10 18:16:42 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * re21b6cdeab68 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (3 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind-9999: Update to latest HEAD
1362 2011-10-10 18:17:08 * [Tycho] looks at nathan7
1363 2011-10-10 18:18:06 <makomk> "package org.apache.commons.lang does not exist" - oh, for...
1364 2011-10-10 18:19:28 <luke-jr> >_<
1365 2011-10-10 18:19:42 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1366 2011-10-10 18:20:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen / BlueMatt: rc1 builds in process?
1367 2011-10-10 18:20:54 eumesmo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1368 2011-10-10 18:21:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: gitian xcompile scripts not yet done...so no win32 rc1 builds yet possible...same for linux though those shouldnt be hard to write
1369 2011-10-10 18:22:27 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: do you have some time to help do builds?
1370 2011-10-10 18:23:00 <gavinandresen> from-a-trusted-developer rc1 builds is fine with me for now...
1371 2011-10-10 18:23:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I can help with uploading... but I intentionally avoid creating builds for patent-related reasons
1372 2011-10-10 18:23:24 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoind-Sanitytest build #62: FAILURE in 1 hr 0 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoind-Sanitytest/62/
1373 2011-10-10 18:23:27 <BlueMatt> for rc I would agree
1374 2011-10-10 18:23:47 <BlueMatt> that is probably a result of the change in linking...
1375 2011-10-10 18:24:09 <BlueMatt> (something else for the todo)
1376 2011-10-10 18:24:21 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1377 2011-10-10 18:24:32 Xunie has joined
1378 2011-10-10 18:24:35 <BlueMatt> (though last several rcs do need to be gitian as changes in build process has caused issues in the past)
1379 2011-10-10 18:25:18 danbri has joined
1380 2011-10-10 18:25:37 [Tycho] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1381 2011-10-10 18:26:37 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r946a3cfb6555 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest bitcoind-0.5.0_rc1.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoind-0.5.0_rc1
1382 2011-10-10 18:32:45 zomtec has left ()
1383 2011-10-10 18:37:12 <makomk> shadders: has anyone compiled PoolServerJ using maven recently, out of interest?
1384 2011-10-10 18:37:37 DeLorean731 has left ()
1385 2011-10-10 18:42:02 wasabi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1386 2011-10-10 18:42:17 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr 0.4.x * raec5c5fe2629 bitcoind-stable/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Bump version to 0.4.1
1387 2011-10-10 18:42:56 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: if I make a tarball from that 0.4.1rc1 source, will you post it?
1388 2011-10-10 18:44:13 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: too busy with 0.5 to review a 0.4.1, sorry
1389 2011-10-10 18:44:36 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: np, I mean so other people can find it to review ;P
1390 2011-10-10 18:46:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: where is the git repo with 0.4.1?
1391 2011-10-10 18:46:29 brunner has joined
1392 2011-10-10 18:46:30 brunner has quit (Changing host)
1393 2011-10-10 18:46:30 brunner has joined
1394 2011-10-10 18:47:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: http://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable
1395 2011-10-10 18:50:45 <BlueMatt> nice, looks good to me
1396 2011-10-10 18:53:13 <luke-jr> yeah, not easy to break stuff when there's only a couple of minor changes XD
1397 2011-10-10 18:53:25 <BlueMatt> heh true
1398 2011-10-10 18:53:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: any chance you wanna make some gitian builds? :D
1399 2011-10-10 18:54:54 <BlueMatt> if I have time, will do
1400 2011-10-10 18:56:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, hold 0.4.1 till there is a fix for the win32 locking issue if you could please
1401 2011-10-10 18:58:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I'm on the same schedule as 0.5.0
1402 2011-10-10 18:58:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: does that issue affect 0.4? O.o
1403 2011-10-10 18:58:44 <BlueMatt> yes it effects 0.4.0
1404 2011-10-10 18:58:58 <BlueMatt> thats the problem with no one using windows and no windows testers
1405 2011-10-10 18:59:08 <BlueMatt> well more like no testers...
1406 2011-10-10 18:59:10 <luke-jr> :p
1407 2011-10-10 19:00:43 wasabi1 has joined
1408 2011-10-10 19:01:39 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rc7eb6aa1ca24 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoind/ (Manifest bitcoind-0.4.1_rc1.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoind-0.4.1_rc1
1409 2011-10-10 19:02:30 <c_k> I suspect there is a bug in bitcoind that stops more than ~120 connections even though something like maxconnections=512 is specified
1410 2011-10-10 19:03:12 <c_k> we need testers?
1411 2011-10-10 19:03:16 <BlueMatt> always
1412 2011-10-10 19:03:16 <c_k> damn, I'm in
1413 2011-10-10 19:03:19 <c_k> where do I sign up
1414 2011-10-10 19:03:31 <BlueMatt> ask AlexWaters
1415 2011-10-10 19:03:34 <luke-jr> c_k: my (heavily patched) bitcoind has well over 120 often
1416 2011-10-10 19:03:34 <c_k> ok
1417 2011-10-10 19:03:40 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1418 2011-10-10 19:03:45 <luke-jr> c_k: just grab the git branches and test? :P
1419 2011-10-10 19:03:52 <c_k> luke-jr: yeah I've heard about your ~800 connections ;)
1420 2011-10-10 19:04:10 <c_k> I'm keen to get the standard release going over ~120 though
1421 2011-10-10 19:04:27 <BlueMatt> shouldnt be a problem
1422 2011-10-10 19:04:36 <c_k> and there lies the problem
1423 2011-10-10 19:04:42 <c_k> it never seems to do it
1424 2011-10-10 19:04:57 <BlueMatt> debug.log show anything interesting, or iptables/router limit?
1425 2011-10-10 19:05:05 <c_k> hmm, I should look
1426 2011-10-10 19:05:39 <c_k> from what I can tell it is a common problem
1427 2011-10-10 19:05:57 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1428 2011-10-10 19:06:19 <c_k> for anyone using the standard daemon
1429 2011-10-10 19:06:19 <BlueMatt> Ive heard of it, never seen it (nor tried)
1430 2011-10-10 19:06:25 <BlueMatt> memory usage limit?
1431 2011-10-10 19:06:34 <BlueMatt> select() limit?
1432 2011-10-10 19:06:42 <BlueMatt> fd limit?
1433 2011-10-10 19:08:19 <luke-jr> select() limit is 1024 IIRC
1434 2011-10-10 19:08:34 casascius has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1435 2011-10-10 19:08:48 PK has quit ()
1436 2011-10-10 19:09:04 <makomk> Ick, the bitcoin messaging code looks ugly. I wish it did use select()
1437 2011-10-10 19:09:23 <BlueMatt> all of the bitcoin code looks ugly
1438 2011-10-10 19:09:30 <BlueMatt> its a fucking mess
1439 2011-10-10 19:09:37 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1440 2011-10-10 19:09:46 <makomk> Ah, apparently it does... it just polls elsewhere >.<
1441 2011-10-10 19:09:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so I thought, but it is customizable iirc
1442 2011-10-10 19:10:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: at compile-time
1443 2011-10-10 19:10:28 <BlueMatt> mmm
1444 2011-10-10 19:10:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: select() is also O(n) to use
1445 2011-10-10 19:10:40 <luke-jr> poll/variants are much faster/extensible ;P
1446 2011-10-10 19:10:50 <BlueMatt> patches welcome ;)
1447 2011-10-10 19:10:55 <TD> ugly is relative :)
1448 2011-10-10 19:10:58 <luke-jr> I don't think I need over 1000 connections âº
1449 2011-10-10 19:11:06 <TD> i prefer the bitcoin code to some of the crap i've seen elsewhere
1450 2011-10-10 19:11:33 <BlueMatt> heh there is always worse, but then again that isnt much of an excuse
1451 2011-10-10 19:11:47 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1452 2011-10-10 19:12:10 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what happened to the script someone mentioned which automatically converts the old wx translations to qt ones?
1453 2011-10-10 19:12:15 <TD> i suspect satoshi learned (or did most of) his programming in the early/mid 90s
1454 2011-10-10 19:12:16 <BlueMatt> why was that never used?
1455 2011-10-10 19:12:19 <TD> it's that type of style
1456 2011-10-10 19:13:02 <BlueMatt> that would make sense given the little we know about him
1457 2011-10-10 19:13:44 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: dunno, I'm looking for somebody who knows about translating stuff to organize the translating stuff stuff
1458 2011-10-10 19:14:09 paul0 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1459 2011-10-10 19:14:33 <BlueMatt> mmm, see discussion at #521
1460 2011-10-10 19:15:21 <gavinandresen> translation patches very welcome. Although half-assed translations might be worse than none at all.
1461 2011-10-10 19:15:38 <BlueMatt> I would disagree
1462 2011-10-10 19:16:27 <BlueMatt> something in your local language that makes more sense is better than a language you dont speak
1463 2011-10-10 19:16:34 <gavinandresen> Vraiment? Seems to me that a little-of-this and un peu de ca is maybe worse than all one or the other
1464 2011-10-10 19:16:35 <BlueMatt> if you speak english too then yea, probably not...
1465 2011-10-10 19:16:52 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
1466 2011-10-10 19:17:10 rdponticelli has joined
1467 2011-10-10 19:17:23 <gavinandresen> (excuse my french)
1468 2011-10-10 19:19:38 paul0 has joined
1469 2011-10-10 19:19:59 <BlueMatt> hmmm...I thought I remembered someone writing a script to convert translations...guess not
1470 2011-10-10 19:20:10 <BlueMatt> just seems like a shame to lose all of that...
1471 2011-10-10 19:25:13 orange-hand has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1472 2011-10-10 19:27:23 Xunie has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1473 2011-10-10 19:29:50 * makomk headscratches over the calc_merkle_index code in merged-mine-proxy
1474 2011-10-10 19:32:36 <makomk> Ewwww. I see how that works, and it's nasty.
1475 2011-10-10 19:32:40 larsivi has joined
1476 2011-10-10 19:33:27 <luke-jr> makomk: I didn't even mess with that :P
1477 2011-10-10 19:33:46 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1478 2011-10-10 19:34:02 ErvisTusha has joined
1479 2011-10-10 19:34:45 <TD> makomk: what a bizarre function
1480 2011-10-10 19:35:24 <makomk> TD: apparently it's used to prevent the same work being used twice on the same chain...
1481 2011-10-10 19:36:04 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49|Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1482 2011-10-10 19:36:12 <TD> i assume the magic numbers are arbitrary
1483 2011-10-10 19:36:28 <makomk> It selects a pseudo-random slot in the merged-mining Merkle tree that the work for a particular chain has to go in based on its chain ID and an arbitrarily-selected nonce (which merged-mine-proxy sets to 0)
1484 2011-10-10 19:37:12 <makomk> I'm not sure merged-mine-proxy checks for collisions in which more than one chain claims the same slot. It doesn't look like it does.
1485 2011-10-10 19:38:08 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1486 2011-10-10 19:39:32 casascius has joined
1487 2011-10-10 19:40:27 <makomk> In theory I guess you should increment the nonce until there's no collision, giving up and increasing the merkle tree size if necessary.
1488 2011-10-10 19:42:03 <TD> it's trying to construct a globally unique tree?
1489 2011-10-10 19:42:03 <TD> why?
1490 2011-10-10 19:42:10 eumesmo has joined
1491 2011-10-10 19:42:17 luke-jr has joined
1492 2011-10-10 19:47:07 <makomk> Not exactly; it needs to come up with a combination of nonce and merkle tree size for which every aux chain gets assigned a unique slot in the merkle tree. I guess whoever designed this didn't want to explicitly record which chain went in which slot for scalability reasons.
1493 2011-10-10 19:51:34 t3a has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1494 2011-10-10 19:51:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r90817d0264f7 gentoo/app-misc/cgminer/ (Manifest cgminer-2.0.6.ebuild): app-misc/cgminer-2.0.6
1495 2011-10-10 19:57:11 eumesmo has left ()
1496 2011-10-10 19:58:17 log0s has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1497 2011-10-10 19:59:23 magn3ts has joined
1498 2011-10-10 19:59:54 log0s has joined
1499 2011-10-10 20:01:30 luke-jr has joined
1500 2011-10-10 20:03:06 danbri has joined
1501 2011-10-10 20:06:16 <diki> ,,seen conman
1502 2011-10-10 20:06:17 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1503 2011-10-10 20:06:25 <diki> ,,seen bitcoin conman
1504 2011-10-10 20:06:25 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1505 2011-10-10 20:06:30 <diki> ,,seen bitcoin conman test
1506 2011-10-10 20:06:30 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1507 2011-10-10 20:06:38 <diki> ,,seen #test conman test
1508 2011-10-10 20:06:38 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1509 2011-10-10 20:06:46 <diki> ,,seen #bitcoin
1510 2011-10-10 20:06:47 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1511 2011-10-10 20:06:51 <diki> ,,seen #bitcoin *
1512 2011-10-10 20:06:51 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1513 2011-10-10 20:07:01 <diki> how does this thing work?
1514 2011-10-10 20:07:11 <diki> ,,seen [#bitcoin] conman
1515 2011-10-10 20:07:12 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1516 2011-10-10 20:07:14 <diki> ,,seen [#bitcoin] conman
1517 2011-10-10 20:07:15 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1518 2011-10-10 20:07:20 <Diablo-D3> diki you idiot
1519 2011-10-10 20:07:21 mmoya has joined
1520 2011-10-10 20:07:31 <diki> show me how then smartass
1521 2011-10-10 20:07:34 <Diablo-D3> ,,seen #bitcoin-dev conman
1522 2011-10-10 20:07:34 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1523 2011-10-10 20:07:38 <diki> haha
1524 2011-10-10 20:07:39 <Diablo-D3> LOL
1525 2011-10-10 20:07:43 <diki> whos the idiot now
1526 2011-10-10 20:07:45 <Diablo-D3> gribble: stay awesome
1527 2011-10-10 20:07:49 <Diablo-D3> diki: oh, you are, still
1528 2011-10-10 20:07:55 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt transfer owners until death
1529 2011-10-10 20:08:06 <gmaxwell> Whos making it do that?
1530 2011-10-10 20:08:10 <gavinandresen> My default-install-ubuntu box doesn't seem to have gthread-2.0 installed; what the heck is gthread-2.0, and do we even need it? (bitcoind builds just fine without it for me)
1531 2011-10-10 20:08:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: diki
1532 2011-10-10 20:08:30 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: if you ban him, Ill start working on my audio codec again ;)
1533 2011-10-10 20:08:41 <diki> nice try diablo..
1534 2011-10-10 20:08:54 <diki> Anywho, who owns gribble?
1535 2011-10-10 20:09:02 <copumpkin> a quick whois will tell you
1536 2011-10-10 20:09:21 <Diablo-D3> satoshi does
1537 2011-10-10 20:09:22 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: well, I've had him on /ignore for god knows how long.
1538 2011-10-10 20:09:30 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hrm, you know what
1539 2011-10-10 20:09:48 <Diablo-D3> my campaign for a stress free life has now muted diki.
1540 2011-10-10 20:09:58 <gmaxwell> Welcome to the club.
1541 2011-10-10 20:10:10 <dub> would be much more fun to contribute to BTC to a hit man fund
1542 2011-10-10 20:10:43 <copumpkin> not a fund
1543 2011-10-10 20:10:49 <copumpkin> just place "bets": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_market
1544 2011-10-10 20:11:30 <gjs278> gthread is gtk threads or gnome threads so it's ui related
1545 2011-10-10 20:11:34 <gmaxwell> dub: don't kid about thatâ Lest you end up like Jim Bell
1546 2011-10-10 20:11:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rfa3e67752b69 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt-9999: update for latest git
1547 2011-10-10 20:11:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r277505335a15 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin-qt/ (Manifest bitcoin-qt-0.5.0_rc1.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin-qt-0.5.0_rc1
1548 2011-10-10 20:11:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: LOL nice >_<
1549 2011-10-10 20:12:03 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I'd LOVE to see gthreads die
1550 2011-10-10 20:12:28 <Diablo-D3> [04:00:08] <gjs278> gthread is gtk threads or gnome threads so it's ui related
1551 2011-10-10 20:12:47 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: gthread is part of glib iirc
1552 2011-10-10 20:13:05 <gavinandresen> gjs278: thanks, if it is UI related then bitcoind definitely doesn't need it
1553 2011-10-10 20:14:14 <makomk> ;;seen conman
1554 2011-10-10 20:14:14 <gribble> conman was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 2 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <conman> blk data tends not to repeat...
1555 2011-10-10 20:14:22 <makomk> diki: ^^^^
1556 2011-10-10 20:14:45 <diki> well i was indeed lazy to type ;; but thanks
1557 2011-10-10 20:14:45 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * re44a00a / src/makefile.unix : bitcoind does not need to link with gthread-2.0 - http://git.io/c9FxyA
1558 2011-10-10 20:14:54 <diki> ;;seen #bitcoin-mining conman
1559 2011-10-10 20:14:54 <gribble> conman was last seen in #bitcoin-mining 1 week, 5 days, 10 hours, 28 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <conman> ask him
1560 2011-10-10 20:14:59 <diki> zomg, that long?
1561 2011-10-10 20:15:25 <Diablo-D3> btw, for those that care
1562 2011-10-10 20:15:26 <diki> <conman> ask him<-conman seems to have read my mind
1563 2011-10-10 20:15:31 <Diablo-D3> conman quit #bitcoin*
1564 2011-10-10 20:15:37 <Diablo-D3> he was tired of the fucking morons
1565 2011-10-10 20:15:41 <Diablo-D3> I do not blame him whatsoever
1566 2011-10-10 20:15:56 fahadsadah has quit (Excess Flood)
1567 2011-10-10 20:16:02 <Diablo-D3> he wrote a miner as good as mine, he doesnt NEED to talk to people.
1568 2011-10-10 20:16:51 fahadsadah has joined
1569 2011-10-10 20:16:55 <dub> lol
1570 2011-10-10 20:17:04 <diki> Praising his own miner...
1571 2011-10-10 20:17:32 <dub> he's still around
1572 2011-10-10 20:17:51 <Diablo-D3> yeah he still monitors the cgminer thread
1573 2011-10-10 20:18:28 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese)
1574 2011-10-10 20:20:48 <diki> Well yeah he needs to monitor it, i know a user who donated him 50 coins
1575 2011-10-10 20:20:52 <diki> he cant just abandon it
1576 2011-10-10 20:21:04 <dub> hi didn't he just doesnt want to talk to people like you
1577 2011-10-10 20:21:12 <dub> s/hi//
1578 2011-10-10 20:21:27 <luke-jr> how are you supposed to change the language of Bitcoin-Qt? -.-
1579 2011-10-10 20:21:51 <diki> dub:why not?
1580 2011-10-10 20:22:07 <diki> just so you know, i've rarely talked with conman, so i dont know what has happened
1581 2011-10-10 20:22:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you saw I have more build fixups, right? :P
1582 2011-10-10 20:22:40 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: yes, thanks
1583 2011-10-10 20:22:44 <Diablo-D3> dub: hurr, no, I talk to him almost every day
1584 2011-10-10 20:22:59 <Diablo-D3> hes still on irc, just not in these channel
1585 2011-10-10 20:24:40 <dub> diki: because you are a moron
1586 2011-10-10 20:24:57 <diki> dub: and you are better?
1587 2011-10-10 20:27:03 <diki> Actually i think i understand why conman, he doesnt want to see people like you
1588 2011-10-10 20:27:13 <diki> calling morons people you do not know...
1589 2011-10-10 20:28:48 <luke-jr> all 3 of you are morons
1590 2011-10-10 20:28:50 <luke-jr> happy?
1591 2011-10-10 20:29:44 <gjs278> gavinandresen I looked through the current source for bitcoin as a whole and I couldn't find any references to the functions contained within the gthread library
1592 2011-10-10 20:30:03 <gjs278> it's possible the ui may build as well with it just fine, I can't see where it needs it
1593 2011-10-10 20:30:24 <gavinandresen> gjs278: the gui is building just fine without it, maybe the old wxwidgets gui needed it.
1594 2011-10-10 20:31:24 t3a has joined
1595 2011-10-10 20:32:10 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen 0.4.x * rb526cbaa718a bitcoind-stable/src/makefile.unix: bitcoind does not need to link with gthread-2.0
1596 2011-10-10 20:34:38 <Diablo-D3> going to bed
1597 2011-10-10 20:34:39 <Diablo-D3> night all
1598 2011-10-10 20:35:59 * luke-jr tries wxBitcoin without glib
1599 2011-10-10 20:37:21 <luke-jr> works :p
1600 2011-10-10 20:38:05 <luke-jr> or at least, wx pulls it in as needed
1601 2011-10-10 20:38:29 <gavinandresen> I hate release engineering....
1602 2011-10-10 20:40:50 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1603 2011-10-10 20:40:57 <TD> why do you think bitcoin links against gthread?
1604 2011-10-10 20:41:00 <gavinandresen> Ok, so I've been googling for the last half hour trying to figure out how Qt projects handle the dynamic-versus-static problem. Somebody who actually knows more want to volunteer to figure it out? Just ship two bitcoin-qt executables (one for 32-bit, one for 64) and ask users to install the Qt/openssl/etc .so 's ? Go through the build-Qt-static and link all the dependencies in route? (which is what we're doing for bitcoind)
1605 2011-10-10 20:41:06 <luke-jr> TD: probably Satoshi's fault
1606 2011-10-10 20:41:14 <TD> are you using ldd by any chance?
1607 2011-10-10 20:41:29 <TD> gavinandresen: yes ship it with the binary.
1608 2011-10-10 20:41:30 <gavinandresen> TD: sure, using it to see the long list of dependencies....
1609 2011-10-10 20:41:35 <TD> ldd is misleading
1610 2011-10-10 20:41:37 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Linux has package dependencies
1611 2011-10-10 20:41:39 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd653063e0801 gentoo/net-p2p/ (17 files in 3 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: neither of these actually need gthread (directly)
1612 2011-10-10 20:41:40 <gavinandresen> ship "it" ?
1613 2011-10-10 20:41:41 <TD> it shows you the transitive closure of all dependencies
1614 2011-10-10 20:41:59 <TD> so it can show different results on different systems. to find out the direct dependencies, try "objdump -x file | grep NEEDED"
1615 2011-10-10 20:42:18 <TD> gavinandresen: all qt related libraries that are compiled in the same way as the main binary (same as for wx, i guess).
1616 2011-10-10 20:42:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: on Windows, I usually ship Qt DLL files in the app dir
1617 2011-10-10 20:42:51 <gavinandresen> the wx bitcoin linked against wxwidgets .a's if I recall correctly
1618 2011-10-10 20:42:53 <luke-jr> (Windows will link with the app dir's lib before system)
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1622 2011-10-10 20:43:38 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: we're not distributing release candidates as packages, or, at least, haven't in the past
1623 2011-10-10 20:43:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: just saying, that's the "right way"
1624 2011-10-10 20:44:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: generally it's up to distros to make packages anyhow
1625 2011-10-10 20:44:32 <luke-jr> a lot of projects just do source releases
1626 2011-10-10 20:45:06 <gavinandresen> Source release on Linux is my vote.
1627 2011-10-10 20:45:25 <gmaxwell> I'm just Mr.SuperHonestGuy will quickly produce binaries for us for every release...
1628 2011-10-10 20:45:36 * luke-jr votes source-only for Linux too, especially since it's easier to build now
1629 2011-10-10 20:46:13 <gmaxwell> Has someone removed all the -Wl,static â a lot of distros don't really ship static libraries anymore.
1630 2011-10-10 20:46:18 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I did.
1631 2011-10-10 20:46:26 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: now you need STATIC=1 passed to get that
1632 2011-10-10 20:46:31 <gmaxwell> Good.
1633 2011-10-10 20:49:27 <BlueMatt> my plan (unless someone has something better): win32 release ship with qt static linked in (appears to work fine), linux the way it always was - with everything static as much as possible. Hopefully in the future the ubuntu releases will be packages...sometime after 0.5 releases I was planning on emailing jonas (the bitcoin debian package maintainer) and get him to do the work to add bitcoin-qt to debian (and maybe finally upgrade bitcoind whi
1634 2011-10-10 20:49:27 <BlueMatt> ch is long out-of-date)
1635 2011-10-10 20:49:55 <BlueMatt> then gitian scripts can build debian packages as well and we can release the same way every other project does - debian debs and src for everyone else
1636 2011-10-10 20:49:59 <BlueMatt> (and maybe fedora packages)
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1638 2011-10-10 20:52:24 <gavinandresen> Anybody object to: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/578
1639 2011-10-10 20:52:38 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: is CXX automagically defined by gmake?
1640 2011-10-10 20:53:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yes
1641 2011-10-10 20:53:20 <gavinandresen> I learn something new every day....
1642 2011-10-10 20:53:29 <gavinandresen> (and then promptly forget half of it)
1643 2011-10-10 20:54:02 * luke-jr notes anyone doing the Windows release shipping Qt should be aware of LGPL requirements
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1645 2011-10-10 20:54:29 <luke-jr> I think the reason Debian never packaged wxBitcoin, was due to the unstable wxGTK ver
1646 2011-10-10 20:54:43 <gavinandresen> what ARE the LGPL requirements if you static link Qt?
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1648 2011-10-10 20:54:56 <gavinandresen> ship the license text?
1649 2011-10-10 20:54:59 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you have to ship the entire source with it
1650 2011-10-10 20:55:08 <luke-jr> or at least have it on the same download page
1651 2011-10-10 20:55:10 <gavinandresen> entire source of Qt?
1652 2011-10-10 20:55:12 <luke-jr> yes
1653 2011-10-10 20:55:20 <luke-jr> and Bitcoin-Qt if you static link
1654 2011-10-10 20:55:30 <luke-jr> if you just dynamic link (ie, DLLs in the app dir), just Qt source
1655 2011-10-10 20:55:34 <gmaxwell> woah woah. You're only required to _offer_ the source with GPLv2 in any case.
1656 2011-10-10 20:55:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that's the more burdensome option :p
1657 2011-10-10 20:55:56 <sipa> for at most an administrative cost
1658 2011-10-10 20:56:00 <gmaxwell> (v3 simplifies the requirement further for things like thisâ unmodified widely distributed things)
1659 2011-10-10 20:56:07 <luke-jr> but you have to keep the source available for 2 years etc
1660 2011-10-10 20:56:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that wouldn't help with static linking
1661 2011-10-10 20:56:40 * luke-jr also notes Debian has 0.3.24 in testing and stable backports
1662 2011-10-10 20:56:40 <BlueMatt-mobile> You said link on download page not in tar
1663 2011-10-10 20:56:47 <luke-jr> and 0.4.0 in unstable
1664 2011-10-10 20:56:59 <gavinandresen> ... this is why I hate release engineering....
1665 2011-10-10 20:57:00 <BlueMatt-mobile> well have to do that anyway?
1666 2011-10-10 20:57:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: not just a link, no
1667 2011-10-10 20:57:33 <luke-jr> actually, Debian is still on 0.3.24 for mips,ppc,s390,sparc,sparc64 and 0.3.20.2 for hppa,powerpcspe
1668 2011-10-10 20:57:37 <luke-jr> I wonder if there's a reason why
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1670 2011-10-10 20:58:05 <BlueMatt-mobile> Either way we have to link to qt src and include license text
1671 2011-10-10 20:58:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: that doesn't meet the requirements alone
1672 2011-10-10 20:58:40 <BlueMatt-mobile> I emailed jonas to get him to update like 3 months ago...nothing
1673 2011-10-10 20:58:50 <luke-jr> you need to either ship the source (putting it on the same download site counts, but NOT just linking) OR an offer for it valid for 2 years
1674 2011-10-10 20:59:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: update what? Debian has 0.4.0 for most platforms
1675 2011-10-10 20:59:18 <BlueMatt-mobile> Since when?
1676 2011-10-10 20:59:31 <BlueMatt-mobile> It sat unupdated for a long time
1677 2011-10-10 21:00:00 <BlueMatt-mobile> And I asked him to backport a few patches which afaik he also never did
1678 2011-10-10 21:00:12 <BlueMatt-mobile> Eg the connection fixes
1679 2011-10-10 21:01:33 <BlueMatt-mobile> luke-jr ok but there is no difference between static and dynamic qt link for us since we also offer src dl link anyway?
1680 2011-10-10 21:01:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: I don't know since when
1681 2011-10-10 21:01:58 <BlueMatt-mobile> ?
1682 2011-10-10 21:02:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: src dl link is not enough-- whether we static or dynamic link, we need to include the source *for Qt* on *our download directory*
1683 2011-10-10 21:02:51 <luke-jr> as does everyone else who redistributes it
1684 2011-10-10 21:03:18 <luke-jr> the alternative is for someone to take on the legal obligation of providing source by written request for 2 years (starting every time someone downloads it)
1685 2011-10-10 21:03:21 <BlueMatt-mobile> Yes that is what I meant by link this time, link to our sf dir
1686 2011-10-10 21:03:27 <gavinandresen> Our download "directory" is github, and Qt is there, too....
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1688 2011-10-10 21:03:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Qt is on GitHub? :p
1689 2011-10-10 21:03:42 <gavinandresen> yes
1690 2011-10-10 21:03:44 <BlueMatt-mobile> ...or github
1691 2011-10-10 21:03:52 <luke-jr> since when? Qt was basically the flagship Gitorious thing
1692 2011-10-10 21:04:28 <gavinandresen> am I misremembering? likely....
1693 2011-10-10 21:04:28 <BlueMatt-mobile> Still is afaik
1694 2011-10-10 21:04:34 danbri has joined
1695 2011-10-10 21:04:45 <gavinandresen> ah yep, completely misremembering, qt is gitorious
1696 2011-10-10 21:04:53 <luke-jr> anyhow, as long as we upload the qt source used for the binaries to the bitcoin github dir we should be clean
1697 2011-10-10 21:04:57 <BlueMatt-mobile> Or was a few days ago when I was dling it
1698 2011-10-10 21:04:58 <luke-jr> might need a mention in the About box
1699 2011-10-10 21:05:28 <BlueMatt-mobile> Does it not already have that?
1700 2011-10-10 21:05:37 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: yuck. WE should link dynamically and teach the windows installer to do the right thing
1701 2011-10-10 21:05:51 <gavinandresen> (imho)
1702 2011-10-10 21:06:17 <BlueMatt-mobile> Static is by far easier for us...and is the standard
1703 2011-10-10 21:06:22 <AlexWaters> gavinandresen: I concur
1704 2011-10-10 21:06:33 <BlueMatt-mobile> (on win32)
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1706 2011-10-10 21:06:41 <JFK911> lol
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1708 2011-10-10 21:06:50 <JFK911> dynamic linking on windows
1709 2011-10-10 21:06:58 <JFK911> that will be great if side by side grows for each new bitcoin version
1710 2011-10-10 21:07:37 <AlexWaters> I still can't get QT to build in windows =/
1711 2011-10-10 21:08:10 <BlueMatt-mobile> Why, I thought they provide binary lib/sdk installers
1712 2011-10-10 21:08:52 <JFK911> sdk installer for what compiler :(
1713 2011-10-10 21:09:03 <AlexWaters> even with downloading the deps and following https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/readme-qt.rst - I get a 32/64 error
1714 2011-10-10 21:09:04 <BlueMatt-mobile> Mingw?
1715 2011-10-10 21:09:11 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: right thing = download and install Qt on its own?
1716 2011-10-10 21:09:12 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen * r755e281 / src/makefile.unix :
1717 2011-10-10 21:09:12 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #578 from luke-jr/bitcoind_build_improvements
1718 2011-10-10 21:09:12 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Allow users to customize CXX, CXXFLAGS, and LDFLAGS normally - http://git.io/uOLjAw
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1720 2011-10-10 21:09:24 <JFK911> ive never used mingw on windows - do all my building with it on linux
1721 2011-10-10 21:09:27 <luke-jr> JFK911: you can ship DLLs in the app dir
1722 2011-10-10 21:09:42 <luke-jr> JFK911: ie, Program Files\Bitcoin-Qt\qtgui.dll
1723 2011-10-10 21:09:48 <JFK911> oh and they wont get copied to SxS when they are registered?
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1725 2011-10-10 21:10:17 <BlueMatt-mobile> luke-jr can !=should
1726 2011-10-10 21:10:23 <luke-jr> JFK911: afaik no
1727 2011-10-10 21:10:32 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: on Windows, that's probably a should
1728 2011-10-10 21:10:39 <JFK911> doesnt that open up a preload attack
1729 2011-10-10 21:10:42 <luke-jr> ideally, you could have it download Qt from Nokia and install to the system
1730 2011-10-10 21:10:45 num1_ is now known as num1
1731 2011-10-10 21:10:45 <BlueMatt-mobile> luke-jr no one does that
1732 2011-10-10 21:10:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: because it's risky :p
1733 2011-10-10 21:10:53 <JFK911> i mean i can replace a function involved in sending coins and have it replace with my address for instance
1734 2011-10-10 21:10:57 <luke-jr> app-directory DLLs is 2nd best
1735 2011-10-10 21:11:08 <BlueMatt-mobile> Why not static link?
1736 2011-10-10 21:11:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt-mobile: no benefit to doing so
1737 2011-10-10 21:11:32 <BlueMatt-mobile> Yea less files
1738 2011-10-10 21:11:36 <luke-jr> â¦
1739 2011-10-10 21:11:39 <luke-jr> who cares how many files?
1740 2011-10-10 21:11:46 <BlueMatt-mobile> Less potential for crap
1741 2011-10-10 21:11:49 <JFK911> less files & no runtime linker exploits
1742 2011-10-10 21:11:57 <luke-jr> also, static link prevents the user from hand-upgrading or deleting it when they want to use system libs
1743 2011-10-10 21:12:13 <luke-jr> JFK911: there are far easier ways to exploit Bitcoin clients
1744 2011-10-10 21:12:26 <JFK911> yeah but the easy ones are what people seek for
1745 2011-10-10 21:12:30 <gmaxwell> Yea, if the attacker can ld-preload/replace librariesâ you're #$@#$@ed.
1746 2011-10-10 21:12:47 <gavinandresen> what gmaxwell said. They can just replace bitcoin-qt.exe
1747 2011-10-10 21:13:11 <gmaxwell> I mean reallyâ if I have the ability to do that, replacing the libraries is about the last thing I'm going to think of trying. :)
1748 2011-10-10 21:14:25 <JFK911> heh
1749 2011-10-10 21:14:26 <JFK911> stuxnet
1750 2011-10-10 21:14:29 <gmaxwell> I'd worry more about the user upgrading libdb out from under us and managing to get themselves into a bad state... but ::shrugs::
1751 2011-10-10 21:14:56 <JFK911> yeah, if the installer doesnt require the exact library version, i can defeat a reinstall by incrementing my lib version
1752 2011-10-10 21:15:06 <gmaxwell> E.g. upgrading to something that only works well enough to get the wallet into a state unreadable by the old version.
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1754 2011-10-10 21:15:28 <luke-jr> why replace anything?
1755 2011-10-10 21:15:36 <luke-jr> just wait for the user to enter passphrase and JSON-RPC
1756 2011-10-10 21:15:59 <gmaxwell> JFK911: I think seeing it as a security risk is simply too off the wall to worry about.
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1760 2011-10-10 21:18:33 <jrmithdobbs> lol @ calling ld.so features "linker exploits"
1761 2011-10-10 21:19:14 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: Welcome to the modern security dialog.
1762 2011-10-10 21:19:25 <JFK911> we were talking about the windows
1763 2011-10-10 21:20:02 <gmaxwell> Apparently finding real weaknesses is too hard so the less talented pick on well known features and quirks (ldpreload, tcp windows, dns cache poisioning) is sound the alarms about them.
1764 2011-10-10 21:20:08 <jrmithdobbs> ok so ld.dll or whatever it's called on win*
1765 2011-10-10 21:21:18 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that would make pebkac "exploits" the number one security concern!
1766 2011-10-10 21:21:21 <gmaxwell> JFK911: we distribute an open source piece of softwareâ there is no exploit when you're assuming the attacker has the same security context as the operator. Perhaps you could call it an exploit against some binary app that is supposted to resist modification and inspection, but not for us.
1767 2011-10-10 21:22:02 <JFK911> and what about users who would like the bitcoin binary to be signed for a tpm environment?
1768 2011-10-10 21:22:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo_mine * rb88e1ef9b224 poclbm-personal/ (BitcoinMiner.py Transport.py poclbm.py): With --durations, track the time shares take to submit
1769 2011-10-10 21:22:04 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo_mine * r03abffafe605 poclbm-personal/ (BitcoinMiner.py Transport.py poclbm.py): Merge branch 'submit_time' into combo_mine
1770 2011-10-10 21:22:11 <JFK911> it is a financial application after all
1771 2011-10-10 21:22:13 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: would be funny to write a CERT notice for users stupidly clicking things in convoluted language that makes it sound like a highly technical weakness. :)
1772 2011-10-10 21:22:16 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: they're more than welcome to sign it themselves
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1775 2011-10-10 21:22:39 <JFK911> oh boy, so the user gets to set up a release and qa process
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1777 2011-10-10 21:22:48 <luke-jr> is there a GUI for signmessage? :x
1778 2011-10-10 21:22:49 <gmaxwell> JFK911: sign the libraries. What do you expect them to do with the C library? we've never statically linked that.
1779 2011-10-10 21:22:50 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: just like they do for 90% of everything run in such an environment
1780 2011-10-10 21:22:57 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: but please, continue to play dumb
1781 2011-10-10 21:23:46 <gmaxwell> tpming a single app isn't logicalâ you need the trust chain to extend through the kernelâ or otherwise it can just poke bits into the applications memory and all bets are off.
1782 2011-10-10 21:24:20 <slush> is there any trusted web wallet right now?
1783 2011-10-10 21:24:22 <JFK911> we have trusted windows
1784 2011-10-10 21:24:23 danbri has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1785 2011-10-10 21:24:25 <luke-jr> slush: MtGox
1786 2011-10-10 21:24:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: we'll title it "Plausible Execution Betrayal Kindled through Accessibility Considerations"
1787 2011-10-10 21:24:56 <slush> luke-jr yes, one option. Maybe a little heavyweight for user who wants only web wallet...
1788 2011-10-10 21:25:03 danbri has joined
1789 2011-10-10 21:25:08 <JFK911> jrmithdobbs: dumb? you couldn't sell ice in the desert. i think your autism precludes you from evaluating customers needs, or at least realizing that the entire world is not here to suit you.
1790 2011-10-10 21:25:17 <gmaxwell> ...
1791 2011-10-10 21:25:26 <gmaxwell> JFK911: I think you smell bad too.
1792 2011-10-10 21:25:39 <gmaxwell> (Is this really the level we're operating at here?)
1793 2011-10-10 21:25:40 <jrmithdobbs> reduced to ad hominem in 5 minutes flat
1794 2011-10-10 21:25:46 <jrmithdobbs> thanks for pointing out the weakness of your argument
1795 2011-10-10 21:26:05 <JFK911> yes, i responded to 'dumb' with facts
1796 2011-10-10 21:26:38 m00p has joined
1797 2011-10-10 21:27:07 <gmaxwell> JFK911: in any case, if you think there is some demand for a TPMed signed binary, setup the toolchain for it. If it actually makes sense to use static libraries in that context then great. I'm doubting that getting a static build of bitcoin is going to be your greatest challenge.
1798 2011-10-10 21:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: you know that's a common english expression meaning to willfully ignore known facts, right? I wasn't calling you dumb.
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1800 2011-10-10 21:28:43 <jrmithdobbs> JFK911: u mad bro
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1810 2011-10-10 21:38:21 <theDUBBER> www.thedubber.altervista.org
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1812 2011-10-10 21:40:26 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: how about "Parasitic executable brought by control absent-kinesthesia."
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1816 2011-10-10 21:41:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: even better
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1819 2011-10-10 21:43:58 <gmaxwell> (I won't admit how long it took me to come up with thatâ¦)
1820 2011-10-10 21:44:26 <AlexWaters> is anyone against me deprecating issues in the issue tracker that pertain to wx?
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1831 2011-10-10 22:00:03 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1832 2011-10-10 22:00:03 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoind-Sanitytest build #63: FIXED in 1 hr 2 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoind-Sanitytest/63/
1833 2011-10-10 22:00:11 <BlueMatt> ...ok?
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