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   7 2011-10-16 00:09:44 <rjk2> hm the 0.4 windows client hangs occasionally when generating a new address
   8 2011-10-16 00:09:58 <rjk2> doesn't prompt for encryption password
   9 2011-10-16 00:10:04 sshc has joined
  10 2011-10-16 00:10:27 <gmaxwell> rjk2: anything in the logs?
  11 2011-10-16 00:10:33 <rjk2> ill take a look
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  14 2011-10-16 00:12:27 <rjk2> is there any way to enable timestamping in the log?
  15 2011-10-16 00:13:04 <rjk2> last entry i see is something like 'received getdata for: tx'
  16 2011-10-16 00:13:09 <rjk2> in debug.log
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  18 2011-10-16 00:14:58 <rjk2> gmaxwell, db.log says 'Program version 4.8 doesn't match environment version 4.7' but I can't tell when that was written
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  23 2011-10-16 00:18:33 <rjk2> hmmmmmm it looks like it was running in the background just fine the whole time, and only the GUI hung
  24 2011-10-16 00:18:48 <rjk2> because the tray app was still working
  25 2011-10-16 00:19:14 <rjk2> however when I chose the Close option from the tray app, it exited with an error
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  27 2011-10-16 00:19:55 <rjk2> the error went away before I could screenshot it, but it had the window title 'wxWidgets' and it was a Yes/No/Cancel type dialog
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  32 2011-10-16 00:29:27 * rjk2 pokes gmaxwell :P
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  37 2011-10-16 00:48:31 <gmaxwell> rjk2: sorry for going quiet. I'm gui clueless. It sounds like yet another locking bug with the encrypted wallets and the gui.
  38 2011-10-16 00:48:58 <rjk2> yeah ok - wasn't sure how much you were up on it :)
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  92 2011-10-16 02:15:47 <odysseus654> wow, lots of people in this room, anyone (other than the bot) un-muted?
  93 2011-10-16 02:16:10 <luke-jr> …
  94 2011-10-16 02:16:17 <luke-jr> nobody is muted afaik
  95 2011-10-16 02:16:37 <odysseus654> well, i'm thinking in irc that at least a few of the names on here prob haven't moved for days...
  96 2011-10-16 02:16:50 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
  97 2011-10-16 02:17:07 Sp0tter has joined
  98 2011-10-16 02:17:08 <rjk2> ...so?
  99 2011-10-16 02:17:10 <Sp0tter> why are there multiple __db.00* files what what do they do exactly?
 100 2011-10-16 02:17:58 <odysseus654> offhand i would guess BDB transaction logs...
 101 2011-10-16 02:18:35 <odysseus654> you talking about log.000001242
 102 2011-10-16 02:18:39 <odysseus654> ?
 103 2011-10-16 02:18:41 <Sp0tter> no
 104 2011-10-16 02:18:49 <Sp0tter> __db.001
 105 2011-10-16 02:19:01 <Sp0tter> what version of BDB does bitcoin use
 106 2011-10-16 02:19:19 <odysseus654> depends on the version, i think the release notes show 0.4 using 4.8 or something?
 107 2011-10-16 02:19:26 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: why did you take Eligius's NMC off? -.-
 108 2011-10-16 02:19:45 <Sp0tter> luke-jr: because it sounds shady
 109 2011-10-16 02:19:50 <luke-jr> …
 110 2011-10-16 02:19:58 <Sp0tter> when you have a valid payout for it, i will add it
 111 2011-10-16 02:20:03 <Sp0tter> and mine it :)
 112 2011-10-16 02:20:05 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: I do.
 113 2011-10-16 02:20:08 <odysseus654> ok, looks like 4.8: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.4.0/
 114 2011-10-16 02:20:13 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: plenty of people paid out already
 115 2011-10-16 02:20:41 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: hashrate has no relation to payout either…
 116 2011-10-16 02:20:50 <odysseus654> i have a random tech question that no one likely had an answer to.  wherefore not sqlite ?
 117 2011-10-16 02:21:00 <Sp0tter> luke-jr: please contact Sp0tter in #btcguild
 118 2011-10-16 02:21:01 <odysseus654> why BDB is better?
 119 2011-10-16 02:21:09 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: why? you're right here
 120 2011-10-16 02:21:19 <Sp0tter> luke-jr: i'm doing something else here
 121 2011-10-16 02:21:21 <luke-jr> :p
 122 2011-10-16 02:21:26 <Sp0tter> maybe you can help
 123 2011-10-16 02:21:37 <Sp0tter> i want to fully understand how all of the data is stored
 124 2011-10-16 02:21:38 <luke-jr> I don't know why those files are there.
 125 2011-10-16 02:21:49 <luke-jr> pretty sure they can be deleted safely
 126 2011-10-16 02:22:02 <Sp0tter> and makea  perl script to read the block db
 127 2011-10-16 02:22:04 <odysseus654> unless bitcoin crashed the last time it was shut down...
 128 2011-10-16 02:22:22 <luke-jr> Sp0tter: you know there's already a Perl implementation, right?
 129 2011-10-16 02:22:30 <odysseus654> i already have a fixwallet script that somene named BlueMatt wrote that can read the files
 130 2011-10-16 02:22:30 <Sp0tter> yes, i just want to use it
 131 2011-10-16 02:22:38 <Sp0tter> i have the bdb module
 132 2011-10-16 02:23:02 <odysseus654> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcointools
 133 2011-10-16 02:23:08 <Sp0tter> i also have the db4.8_utis in debian
 134 2011-10-16 02:23:41 ThomasV has joined
 135 2011-10-16 02:24:06 <Sp0tter> its hard to find something from the start ya know
 136 2011-10-16 02:24:10 <Sp0tter> everything is always in mid stride
 137 2011-10-16 02:24:33 <odysseus654> i'm just wondering if there's a reason why I'm not seeing any discussion on SQLITE as a replacement for BDB.  I remember having wedging frustrations in SVN with BDB before they wandered away, and my wallet here gets corrupted within about an hour of running the client...
 138 2011-10-16 02:25:48 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 139 2011-10-16 02:25:51 <luke-jr> odysseus654: sqlite is RDBMSp; bdb is not
 140 2011-10-16 02:25:56 <luke-jr> sqlite is also much slower
 141 2011-10-16 02:26:04 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 142 2011-10-16 02:26:15 <odysseus654> RDBMSp ?
 143 2011-10-16 02:26:45 zhoutong has joined
 144 2011-10-16 02:26:50 <odysseus654> oh sqlite is relational?  where's the relations?
 145 2011-10-16 02:27:24 <odysseus654> there's no FK management and no datatypes in there.  granted it's not a "remote dictionary" so the organization is different
 146 2011-10-16 02:27:31 <odysseus654> slow... might be a good argument.  i don't know about that one
 147 2011-10-16 02:27:49 <gmaxwell> bitcoin also doesn't need anything fancy or relational from it.
 148 2011-10-16 02:28:26 <gmaxwell> Your wallet getting corrupted probably has nothing to do with the fact that it uses bdb.
 149 2011-10-16 02:28:46 <odysseus654> i've just gotten a bad taste in my mouth from BDB over the years, especially with its version-specific stuff
 150 2011-10-16 02:28:58 urstroyer_ has joined
 151 2011-10-16 02:29:11 <odysseus654> yah, i'm not quite sure what's going on there, only that i need to copy it over and run fixwallet every so often or the client will refuse to start up because
 152 2011-10-16 02:29:18 <odysseus654> "my wallet is a resource"
 153 2011-10-16 02:29:51 <odysseus654> kinda figure it's being used in android and half a dozen other places, lose the transaction log and make it more portable :-P
 154 2011-10-16 02:30:43 <odysseus654> tried to compile BitCoin but it gets as far as the BDB open call and then something inside code i don't have source to is calling abort()
 155 2011-10-16 02:31:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not so sure. had a LOT of reports of 0.5 corrupting wallets
 156 2011-10-16 02:31:18 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: sure, but bdb hasn't changed.
 157 2011-10-16 02:31:28 <luke-jr> oh, right, misread that
 158 2011-10-16 02:31:49 <gmaxwell> Actually— I wonder if perhaps the binaries you're building are miscompiled or something crazy like that?
 159 2011-10-16 02:31:51 urstroyer has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 160 2011-10-16 02:32:17 <odysseus654> i did have to modify the PRO file a bit to get it to compile i must admit, some broken dependancies inside of OpenSSL or something
 161 2011-10-16 02:32:26 <gmaxwell> (due to bugs in bitcoin even— but ones which aren't being exposed in the popular binary builds)
 162 2011-10-16 02:32:42 <odysseus654> oh, official downloaded build you mean
 163 2011-10-16 02:32:57 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: No, I'm talking about luke's builds which are presumably what he's had those reports against.
 164 2011-10-16 02:33:24 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: if you're not compiling with GCC you're running in a configuration which is probably not well tested at all.
 165 2011-10-16 02:33:36 <odysseus654> i'm... not sure what compiler it's choosing
 166 2011-10-16 02:34:15 <odysseus654> ok, looks like MINGW
 167 2011-10-16 02:34:38 <gmaxwell> k. yea, thats sensible then.
 168 2011-10-16 02:35:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: have you managed to get your hands on one of these corrupted wallets yet?
 169 2011-10-16 02:35:08 <odysseus654> if i switch the little combo box over to "VC Model" then i get a lot of complaints about bad compiler switches
 170 2011-10-16 02:36:21 <odysseus654> it also keeps asking me which Nokia phone I'm trying to get this onto, which is weird
 171 2011-10-16 02:37:10 <odysseus654> so... is there any value in me looking into SQLITE, or would it just be shot down?
 172 2011-10-16 02:37:22 <gmaxwell> I don't think there would be any value.
 173 2011-10-16 02:37:54 <gmaxwell> Frankly, the wallet could just be made a text file for most users and be completely acceptable.
 174 2011-10-16 02:38:48 <odysseus654> then it wouldn't exactly be indexed.  i figure the blockchain at the minimum needs to be indexed
 175 2011-10-16 02:39:45 <odysseus654> bah, need to remember which version of Roaming last had an uncorrupted wallet, lol
 176 2011-10-16 02:40:52 <odysseus654> ok, all my wallets are corrupted again.  time to boot ubuntu up again, lol
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 183 2011-10-16 02:43:39 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: the blockchain itself isn't even stored in bdb.
 184 2011-10-16 02:43:48 TheSeven has joined
 185 2011-10-16 02:43:51 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: it's just a dumb file with the blocks appened one after another.
 186 2011-10-16 02:44:00 <odysseus654> yah i know, and a BDB file to index it?
 187 2011-10-16 02:44:20 <odysseus654> blkindex.dat is BDB, right?
 188 2011-10-16 02:45:42 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 189 2011-10-16 02:46:19 <gmaxwell> But all it's doing is storing ID->byte offsets... which is pretty terribly boring.
 190 2011-10-16 02:46:53 <odysseus654> ok, wallet.dat is not the corrupted file
 191 2011-10-16 02:47:17 vorlov has joined
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 194 2011-10-16 02:48:27 <odysseus654> bah, how many BDB files are there in here?  i've already replaced wallet, blkindex, and addr and it's still refusing to launch...
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 199 2011-10-16 02:50:21 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: thats it. I think you may be fixating on bdb when its not your issue...
 200 2011-10-16 02:50:42 <odysseus654> ok, i needed to replace my log.###### files.  i got it to launch
 201 2011-10-16 02:51:01 <gmaxwell> ah, had you shut down uncleanly?
 202 2011-10-16 02:51:01 <odysseus654> although everything is 0/unconfirmed now
 203 2011-10-16 02:51:22 Lexa has joined
 204 2011-10-16 02:51:30 <odysseus654> umm, yah.  in an hour or so it's gonna throw a db corruption error and shut down again and i'll have to figure out what to replace again to get it to launch
 205 2011-10-16 02:51:33 <gmaxwell> Yes, it's 0/uncofirmed because you blew up your blockchain.
 206 2011-10-16 02:51:34 Clipse has quit (Quit: Clipse)
 207 2011-10-16 02:52:12 <odysseus654> ok, looks like i just copied over an older index file, it's only a couple months old
 208 2011-10-16 02:53:54 <odysseus654> anyhow, didn't mean to try to leverage this for tech support with my frustrations, i've already gone through this in the forums as it is.
 209 2011-10-16 02:53:54 <gmaxwell> erp. thats screwy. I predict you're going to end up wasting a ton of disk space due to that.
 210 2011-10-16 02:54:33 <odysseus654> i'm just getting tired of all this BDB stuff, saw someone else mentioning a possible alternate, not seeing any mention of it in any archives, and wondering what the ideas were
 211 2011-10-16 02:55:46 <gmaxwell> You're having problems which other people aren't having— so you should be asking whats different.
 212 2011-10-16 02:55:52 osmosis has joined
 213 2011-10-16 02:56:18 <gmaxwell> Personally, I'd shut down and run memtest86 over night before bothering with further troubleshooting. :)
 214 2011-10-16 02:56:32 <odysseus654> yah, i seem to often be the "odd man out".  unfortunately the only clean way to "fix" this is to completely start over with a new wallet
 215 2011-10-16 02:57:02 <odysseus654> the error message i have yet to understand is "your wallet is a resource"
 216 2011-10-16 02:57:17 <odysseus654> which google says the usual response to that is "that is not an error message coming from BDB"
 217 2011-10-16 02:58:15 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: the binaries I built have worked for many people-- and like I said, it happens when they build their own Ubuntu bins
 218 2011-10-16 02:58:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: of course, nobody is likely to send anyone a wallet file :p
 219 2011-10-16 02:59:04 <odysseus654> maybe if they copy out all their coins first and don't have it perma-bound to any pools...
 220 2011-10-16 02:59:24 <luke-jr> maybe
 221 2011-10-16 02:59:33 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well, it's easy enough to send someone a wallet... copy it.. recover it.. send all your coins away... hand over the old one. It just needs someone who doesn't expect future payments to old addresses
 222 2011-10-16 02:59:39 <gmaxwell> Which isn't everyone, but its a lot of people.
 223 2011-10-16 03:00:42 <odysseus654> btw, am i understanding this right, that the timestamp of a payment is not when it was paid but the time that your client downloaded the block?
 224 2011-10-16 03:01:52 BCBot has joined
 225 2011-10-16 03:01:56 <luke-jr> odysseus654: that was recently changed to be so, I think
 226 2011-10-16 03:02:25 <luke-jr> odysseus654: the alternative was worse, for people with 24/7 wallets: it would show when you first saw the transaction, and then move it later in the list when it got confirmed
 227 2011-10-16 03:03:20 <odysseus654> ok, was wondering why i had ~20 transactions with timestamps within half an hour, then another ~10 that were 15 days previous wtihin half an hour
 228 2011-10-16 03:03:57 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: There is really no "when it was paid" — there was when it was mined... but that can change (e.g. when it gets mined for the first time, or if you see a reorg)
 229 2011-10-16 03:04:19 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 231 2011-10-16 03:04:52 <odysseus654> there's first-broadcast, first-download, registered-blocktime... there's prob a few others
 232 2011-10-16 03:06:44 <luke-jr> first-broadcast is not recorded
 233 2011-10-16 03:06:49 <luke-jr> first-download is what you see now
 234 2011-10-16 03:07:09 <odysseus654> what is 0/unconfirmed then, this thing doesn't record IRC broadcasts?
 235 2011-10-16 03:07:11 <luke-jr> registered-blocktime always changes at least once (when it's first mined)
 236 2011-10-16 03:07:19 <luke-jr> there are no IRC broadcasts
 237 2011-10-16 03:07:23 <luke-jr> 0/unconfirmed is p2p
 238 2011-10-16 03:07:27 <gmaxwell> ... IRC broadcasts?!
 239 2011-10-16 03:07:31 <odysseus654> ok, p2p broadcasts then :-P
 240 2011-10-16 03:07:33 <luke-jr> if you see it at 0/unconfirmed, that's the time it will show you
 241 2011-10-16 03:07:39 <odysseus654> i saw this thing connecting to IRC and got a bit confused
 242 2011-10-16 03:07:44 <luke-jr> if you're offline when it's broadcast, you see when you first download it
 243 2011-10-16 03:07:52 <luke-jr> IRC is just for finding peers
 244 2011-10-16 03:08:03 <gmaxwell> And its only one of several methods of finding peers.
 245 2011-10-16 03:08:49 <odysseus654> so it sounds like timestamp goes to first-broadcast, then first-download... how does registered-blocktime change, isn't it part of the signed content?
 246 2011-10-16 03:09:05 <luke-jr> odysseus654: the timestamp is when your client first sees the transaction
 247 2011-10-16 03:09:12 <luke-jr> whether that be broadcast or in a block is irrelevant
 248 2011-10-16 03:09:32 <luke-jr> registered blocktime changes from None to a specific time when it gets confirmed
 249 2011-10-16 03:10:03 <odysseus654> oh, you're talking about the revorded transaction in BDB, is that why all the warnings about not crashing when you have unconfirmed transactions?
 250 2011-10-16 03:10:21 <luke-jr> …
 251 2011-10-16 03:11:41 <gmaxwell> ^ ditto. Huh?
 252 2011-10-16 03:11:58 <odysseus654> i'm looking, it's not in 0.4 release notes
 253 2011-10-16 03:12:38 Clipse has joined
 254 2011-10-16 03:13:39 <odysseus654> oh, BDB4 won't upgrade to BDB5 ?  that's prob why my compiled version wuldn't launch...
 255 2011-10-16 03:15:17 osmosis has joined
 256 2011-10-16 03:15:38 <MimeNarrator> So what's the release schedule like for new versions of bitcoin?
 257 2011-10-16 03:16:44 <gmaxwell> "when its ready"
 258 2011-10-16 03:17:17 <MimeNarrator> fair enough
 259 2011-10-16 03:17:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: how come the import/export hasn't made it in yet but signmessage has?
 260 2011-10-16 03:18:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: there are some practical issues with import/export
 261 2011-10-16 03:18:31 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ie, most people won't expect that if you import a key, suddenly you've "sent" to other people
 262 2011-10-16 03:18:36 <odysseus654> bah, can't find it in either release notes or git notes.  i remember reading that shutting down with unconfirmed transactions may cause problems, although i didn't really understand why
 263 2011-10-16 03:18:51 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: nor that if you remove a key, totally unrelated transactions will be "unsent"
 264 2011-10-16 03:19:14 <luke-jr> odysseus654: they might get lost, if no miner accepts them in time
 265 2011-10-16 03:19:27 <luke-jr> odysseus654: but it will resend when you start the client again
 266 2011-10-16 03:19:56 <odysseus654> ...unless there's things that muck with the relaunch.  then it's as if you never sent the transaction anyhow
 267 2011-10-16 03:20:33 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: oh yea.. what awesome confusing things will happen when you import key A that was used as a joint input on a txn with key B that you don't have.. That'll confuse peopel for sure. :)
 268 2011-10-16 03:21:29 <odysseus654> if import/export is used to send money to other people (why not just use bitcoin) then the client should prob be told to keep them separate (multiple wallets?)
 269 2011-10-16 03:22:32 <odysseus654> i'm not sure i'm really happy with the fact that my "address book" contains dozens of addresses that i'm not allowed to see, because the client doesn't want to "confuse" me.  at least that's the impression i'm getting.  Where do I see backdraft addresses for instance?
 270 2011-10-16 03:23:06 <gmaxwell> Change addresses? You don't.
 271 2011-10-16 03:23:40 <gmaxwell> And for good reason... as they'd rapidly make the interface pretty much incomprehensible.
 272 2011-10-16 03:24:16 <odysseus654> you're talking about the autogenerated backdraft addresses?  or multiple wallets?  or something someone else said that I missed...
 273 2011-10-16 03:24:27 <gmaxwell> You also can't be shown pool addresses, lest you use them prematurely and make your backups invalid.
 274 2011-10-16 03:25:02 <gmaxwell> I don't know where you're getting the word "backdraft" from, it's not a commonly used phrase in the bitcoin community to describe any part of bitcoin.
 275 2011-10-16 03:25:27 <odysseus654> ok, when paying someone, the address that gets the spray of bitcoins flying back into your face
 276 2011-10-16 03:25:32 <gmaxwell> I was referring to the addresses which are used to recieve the unspent fragments of inputs when you make transactions.
 277 2011-10-16 03:25:40 <gmaxwell> Yes. That.
 278 2011-10-16 03:26:13 <odysseus654> i'm guessing each transaction creates a new address there, right?
 279 2011-10-16 03:26:51 <odysseus654> hope i'm not overwhelming this chat room, noticing i'm the only one really talking, lol...
 280 2011-10-16 03:26:53 <gmaxwell> Each transaction that has change (it tries to avoid change if it can) will use a new address out of the keypool for that purpose, yes.
 281 2011-10-16 03:27:01 <gmaxwell> Its quiet here on the weekends.
 282 2011-10-16 03:27:19 <odysseus654> ok, and the keypool is the secret addresses that you don't see, right?
 283 2011-10-16 03:27:47 <odysseus654> i'm noticing the majority of the addresses i do see have no presence in the chain
 284 2011-10-16 03:27:56 <gmaxwell> No, its addresses which are precomputed ahead of time so that backups are useful.
 285 2011-10-16 03:28:27 <gmaxwell> (but yes, you don't see them too— or they'd be useless for the backup preserving purpose)
 286 2011-10-16 03:29:42 <odysseus654> which is prob something else that rubbed me the wrong way when i first found out about it.  i guess i like looking under the hood or something.  part of me wants to hand-code my own transactions anyhow, at least i know which key they come from then.
 287 2011-10-16 03:30:36 <odysseus654> and this scripting language that no one is using looks neat :-)
 288 2011-10-16 03:31:14 <odysseus654> someone in forums was complaining that all bitcoin transactions were irrevocable and that escrow wasn't permitted. it's just the client that doesn't know how to do any of that
 289 2011-10-16 03:32:03 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: eh, it's used by every transaction, just not much of it.
 290 2011-10-16 03:32:39 <odysseus654> enough of it is used that bitcoinexplorer can list on one hand the transactions that don't just use [addr hash verify] or [addr verify]
 291 2011-10-16 03:32:55 <gmaxwell> And there are patches for the escrow stuff, there is just some ongoing debate over how best to handle it in the official client.  It looks like the plan will be to introduce a new address type so the reciever of funds can specify the payments rules.
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 293 2011-10-16 03:34:26 <gmaxwell> You should consider the extreme conservatism which is justified when writing software which handles other people's money in irrevocable ways.
 294 2011-10-16 03:35:05 <gmaxwell> e.g. bugs in bitcoin have far greater cost than most other software.  Likewise for usability screwups.
 295 2011-10-16 03:35:07 <odysseus654> well with that escrow thing it sounds like another company needs to get involved, it's just that somehow the client needs to know how to address the company?
 296 2011-10-16 03:35:23 <odysseus654> maybe have an organization send a modified recipe to the client it can use?
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 298 2011-10-16 03:35:46 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: You don't need a company for bitcoin in-blockchain escrow.
 299 2011-10-16 03:36:01 <gmaxwell> You can use any third party as a mediator (or no mediator at all)
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 302 2011-10-16 03:36:28 <odysseus654> i'm not sure how to do it without a mediator, isn't it done with out-voting the loser?
 303 2011-10-16 03:37:06 <gmaxwell> requring two of two is an escrow too— it's vulnerable to holdup, but thats not always a substantial risk.
 304 2011-10-16 03:38:02 <gmaxwell> In anycase, the proposal now is to form transactions where the person sending the funds provides a hash of the payment script and the person spending the funds provides the payment script
 305 2011-10-16 03:38:02 <odysseus654> i think one look at the forums would quickly demonstrate that trusting the other party to "go along" and vote is not a good thing
 306 2011-10-16 03:38:08 <gmaxwell> Then we can code that hash into an address.
 307 2011-10-16 03:38:32 <odysseus654> ok
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 310 2011-10-16 03:40:02 <odysseus654> btw, i did notice that the last time the client crashed on me, it was still downloading blocks beind the error message.  the log file said that it crashed because it couldn't delete the database because it was still in use or something?  it ran for another hour or so before it abort()ed
 311 2011-10-16 03:40:53 <Sp0tter> what is used as the key in the blk0001.dat  for each record?
 312 2011-10-16 03:41:34 <odysseus654> i must admit i'm starting to get really tired of being the guy to get the strange errors.  on my machine at work apparently our main database product won't give CLR error messages, just saying everything succeeded (blind coding isn't fun).  Then the older workstation won't download updates because the SSL subsystem has failed or something.  getting annoying.
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 319 2011-10-16 03:52:03 <odysseus654> jeez the bitcoin client does a lot of disk thrashing while it's downloading chains...
 320 2011-10-16 03:53:25 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: thats because it does sync writes for all the index updates.
 321 2011-10-16 03:55:06 <odysseus654> is that a lot of the reason why this is so slow?  i've seen plenty of discussions asking what part of this is the bottleneck.
 322 2011-10-16 03:55:21 <bd_> gmaxwell: hm, it doesn't commit using DB_TXN_NOSYNC?
 323 2011-10-16 03:56:12 <bd_> it would seem like a good idea to do so for non-locally-originated transactions; even if the client crashes and some txns are lost, you'll redownload them soon enough
 324 2011-10-16 03:59:11 <gmaxwell> well, it's good if the _rest_ of the network will remember them if they have problems.
 325 2011-10-16 03:59:29 <gmaxwell> bd_: better to just nosync during initial bringup. The sync write load is harmless after that.
 326 2011-10-16 03:59:58 <bd_> it's still not really needed
 327 2011-10-16 04:00:09 <odysseus654> if the blocks are remote, then if the rest of the network doesn't remember them then they were likely orphans or something.  and if they were locally generated and the network doesn't remember them... then they're probably stale by now?
 328 2011-10-16 04:00:14 <bd_> the probability of the _entire network_ dying at the same time is quite low
 329 2011-10-16 04:00:36 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 330 2011-10-16 04:00:51 <bd_> and by simply saying "new chunk processing will use DB_TXN_NOSYNC", you eliminate an annoying-to-code exception :)
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 332 2011-10-16 04:01:45 <gmaxwell> bd_: you may be the _only_ neighbor who has recieved a new txn.
 333 2011-10-16 04:02:13 <odysseus654> if you've crashed, then that txn is likely orphaned by now
 334 2011-10-16 04:02:31 <bd_> gmaxwell: sure, okay, but syncing only reduces the time window in which that txn can be lost
 335 2011-10-16 04:02:34 <gmaxwell> height>TOP_CHECKPOINT?0:DB_TXN_NOSYNC is hardly terrible to code. ;)
 336 2011-10-16 04:02:36 <bd_> what happens if you crash before the commit? :)
 337 2011-10-16 04:02:56 <bd_> also, I'm proposing this for new _chunks_, not new free txns
 338 2011-10-16 04:03:35 <gmaxwell> okay, that sounds fine to me.
 339 2011-10-16 04:03:49 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: I'm not sure what you're saying about it being orphaned.
 340 2011-10-16 04:04:00 <bd_> that said I don't care enough to actually implement it myself :)
 341 2011-10-16 04:04:27 <gmaxwell> "Use a ssd and then you won't care"
 342 2011-10-16 04:04:57 <bd_> syncs still take time, especially if you have other heavy IO at the same time :)
 343 2011-10-16 04:05:26 <gmaxwell> once you're on a ssd the initial synchup looks to be cpu bound instead of io bound.
 344 2011-10-16 04:05:37 <odysseus654> i was thinking blocks too, not txn's.  and my hd light is on continuously during the blockchain download
 345 2011-10-16 04:05:49 <gmaxwell> (and outside of initial synchup its irrelevant because bitcoin's demands are so light)
 346 2011-10-16 04:06:26 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: if you crash, yea, you'll get some lost crap in the blocks file.
 347 2011-10-16 04:07:57 * odysseus654 wonders if there's any value in the client scanning the blocks file on startup... part of /rescan maybe?
 348 2011-10-16 04:08:14 <gmaxwell> scanning for what?
 349 2011-10-16 04:08:22 <odysseus654> "lost blocks"
 350 2011-10-16 04:08:45 <gmaxwell> well, what would it do with them? :)
 351 2011-10-16 04:08:45 <odysseus654> prob no big deal, just re-download them again...
 352 2011-10-16 04:08:57 <gmaxwell> By lost I mean redundant data.
 353 2011-10-16 04:09:09 <gmaxwell> it would just redownload anything it didn't know it had.
 354 2011-10-16 04:09:09 <odysseus654> stick them in the index file... although i'm not sure how much of this sync time is really spent downloading, negotiating, syncing, etc.
 355 2011-10-16 04:09:57 <odysseus654> for all i know it's doing a chain reorg a few times a second with all the attacks that go on that no one knows about, right?
 356 2011-10-16 04:10:13 <gmaxwell> No there are basically no attacks against bitcoin.
 357 2011-10-16 04:10:37 <gmaxwell> And there aren't many reorgs, they're logged and varrious people pay a bit of attention.
 358 2011-10-16 04:10:42 <odysseus654> i saw an awful lot of "ORPHAN BLOCK" errors in the log when rebuilding the chain..
 359 2011-10-16 04:11:02 <rjk2> the ones that have he knowledge to attack it also know the futility of doing so
 360 2011-10-16 04:11:06 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: Yes, you get those when the blocks end up coming in before the ones before them have been processed. They're not really orphaned.
 361 2011-10-16 04:11:33 <gmaxwell> rjk2: No one wants to waste $200 to mine a block that won't become part of the longest chain... gets expensive fast.
 362 2011-10-16 04:11:52 <rjk2> yup
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 435 2011-10-16 05:41:11 <teh_ferret> ok so hi...
 436 2011-10-16 05:41:25 <teh_ferret> anyone awake in here?
 437 2011-10-16 05:41:31 <teh_ferret> O.o
 438 2011-10-16 05:42:01 <teh_ferret> srsly...
 439 2011-10-16 05:42:01 bobd0bb has joined
 440 2011-10-16 05:42:04 <teh_ferret> no one?
 441 2011-10-16 05:43:24 <ThomasV> no
 442 2011-10-16 05:43:33 <teh_ferret> lol.
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 447 2011-10-16 05:48:56 <Sp0tter> what are the key indexes for the block database?
 448 2011-10-16 05:49:05 <Sp0tter> tx idea?
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 458 2011-10-16 05:59:21 <odysseus654> woo woo, i'm back... and bitcoin crashed, lol
 459 2011-10-16 06:01:00 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: perhaps you ought to see if the official binaries crash and then figure out how your enviroment differs.
 460 2011-10-16 06:01:15 <odysseus654> this is the official binary :-P
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 462 2011-10-16 06:01:32 <odysseus654> i'm half tempted to build my own and set breakpoints everywhere to figure out what this error message means
 463 2011-10-16 06:01:41 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 464 2011-10-16 06:02:06 <Sp0tter> $db = new BerkeleyDB::Hash(-Filename => $filename,  is saying __db_meta_setup: unexpected file type or forma   on  blk0001.dat
 465 2011-10-16 06:02:10 <odysseus654> part of the confusing part is i'm starting to think it's not logging all errors to db.log
 466 2011-10-16 06:02:12 <gmaxwell> oh, I recommend terminating your scsi bus. If you don't have a scsi bus, or its already terminated then I recommend you terminate a goat (as a sacrifice)
 467 2011-10-16 06:02:16 <Sp0tter> are there some other settings or flags that must be  set?
 468 2011-10-16 06:02:29 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: well, if it crashes it might not get a chance.
 469 2011-10-16 06:02:32 <odysseus654> blk001 isn't BDB, is it?
 470 2011-10-16 06:02:38 <Sp0tter> what is?
 471 2011-10-16 06:02:46 <Sp0tter> says thes same thing on blkindex.dat
 472 2011-10-16 06:02:51 peper has joined
 473 2011-10-16 06:02:59 <odysseus654> gmaxwell: i actually think it's still running in the backround, i usually see the confirmation count continue to rise until it hits an abort() about an hour later
 474 2011-10-16 06:03:04 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: also— I wasn't kidding about memtest86
 475 2011-10-16 06:03:17 <odysseus654> yah i know, means i need to reboot this machine, haven't done that in months
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 478 2011-10-16 06:03:53 <odysseus654> at least if i remember this thing doesn't work without a boot disk
 479 2011-10-16 06:04:01 <odysseus654> it's been a while since i've ran one of these
 480 2011-10-16 06:04:33 <odysseus654> ooh, ISO image for bootable CD, we're getting fancy :-P
 481 2011-10-16 06:05:17 <gmaxwell> Linux users just usually add it to their grub menu.
 482 2011-10-16 06:05:33 <odysseus654> yah, confirmation count is still rising.  it just has "Db::put:: Resource" in the corner of the window
 483 2011-10-16 06:06:37 <odysseus654> looks like it's gotten up to sometime in september
 484 2011-10-16 06:07:54 <odysseus654> Sp0tter: i got the impression that blk0001.dat (what's the #1 for?) is a flat file containing all the concatenated blocks the client has received
 485 2011-10-16 06:09:19 <odysseus654> and since it's not BDB-controlled, prob wouldn't be that difficult to write a block explorer program or something that just read the file out while the real client is running...
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 490 2011-10-16 06:12:26 <Sp0tter> odysseus654: yea you are right
 491 2011-10-16 06:12:33 <Sp0tter> i used db4.8_verify
 492 2011-10-16 06:12:43 <Sp0tter> blkindex.dat is the bdb file, still working on opening it
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 494 2011-10-16 06:13:26 <odysseus654> the moment any of the db4.8_utilities have touched any of my wallet files they've been permanantly damaged, lol
 495 2011-10-16 06:13:42 <Sp0tter> i made a copy first
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 497 2011-10-16 06:15:13 <odysseus654> and i'm still tempted to look into SQLITE, lol.  Considering that I deal with an RDBMS (sp?) every waking weekday, i'm prob just running to what i know, right?
 498 2011-10-16 06:15:46 wasabi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 499 2011-10-16 06:16:16 <odysseus654> i know i prob should do that MEMTEST thingy though.  I doubt it would come up with anything though, would be too obvious an answer :-P
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 501 2011-10-16 06:17:40 <odysseus654> the last time i spent some time trying to figure out why someone's program was crapping out, there was no source and I eventually wrote a wrapper that would call CreateRemoteThread on it to patch it while it was running.  That... felt a little close to the line.
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 508 2011-10-16 06:34:09 <AAA_awright> odysseus654: You don't want SQLite (not an acronym btw)
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 510 2011-10-16 06:34:32 <odysseus654> ok.  gimmie reasons :-)
 511 2011-10-16 06:34:45 <AAA_awright> There's no reason a single-file database couldn't be awesome
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 513 2011-10-16 06:35:08 <AAA_awright> But SQLite just has fatal design flaws. It'll happily store strings in INT columns, for instance.
 514 2011-10-16 06:35:30 <AAA_awright> Or let you store massive strings in CHAR or VARCHAR fields.
 515 2011-10-16 06:35:42 <odysseus654> yah, it has no types
 516 2011-10-16 06:36:11 <odysseus654> does BDB have types?  i thought it was just key->value.  Or does it require everything to be cast as string first?
 517 2011-10-16 06:36:29 <odysseus654> what db4.8_dump spewed looked heavily encoded
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 623 2011-10-16 09:12:09 <FellowTraveler> hi all.
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 632 2011-10-16 09:22:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r31d3af0223a7 cgminer/main.c: Support new configuration file format courtesy of Chris Savery which can write the config file from the menu and will load it on startup.
 633 2011-10-16 09:23:05 conman has joined
 634 2011-10-16 09:23:17 <jaromil> CK in bitcoin? 8^) wow
 635 2011-10-16 09:23:30 <conman> heh
 636 2011-10-16 09:23:32 <jaromil> FellowTraveler: hi there
 637 2011-10-16 09:23:34 <conman> not new here...
 638 2011-10-16 09:23:51 <jaromil> conman: max respect for your old kernel patches they rocked my comps
 639 2011-10-16 09:23:56 <conman> thanks
 640 2011-10-16 09:24:01 <conman> not my new ones :( ?
 641 2011-10-16 09:24:14 <jaromil> didn't tried, you are back to patching linux too?
 642 2011-10-16 09:24:16 <FellowTraveler> jaromil any interest in writing an OT-based project?
 643 2011-10-16 09:24:24 <jaromil> thought you stopped
 644 2011-10-16 09:24:42 BCBot has joined
 645 2011-10-16 09:24:45 <conman> been doing it offlist for 2 years, minimal involvement with mainline
 646 2011-10-16 09:24:55 <jaromil> FellowTraveler: tons of interest but major time messup atm
 647 2011-10-16 09:25:36 <FellowTraveler> I have a giant list of projects I need others to work on, can you scrounge up some volunteers for me?
 648 2011-10-16 09:25:45 <jaromil> conman: i'd love to test. dynebolic 2.x always run CK kernel, people loves it
 649 2011-10-16 09:26:08 <jaromil> now just revamped dev on dynebolic 3 and following linux-libre rather than mainline, GNU and FSF vetted
 650 2011-10-16 09:26:35 <conman> hmm well kernel.org got rooted and my patches aren't there any more
 651 2011-10-16 09:26:38 <conman> so I should host them on my server
 652 2011-10-16 09:26:54 <jaromil> let me know if you do and even if i can help hosting
 653 2011-10-16 09:27:04 <conman> oh I do
 654 2011-10-16 09:27:07 <conman> it's all there
 655 2011-10-16 09:27:16 <jaromil> ah oh ok i'll look then
 656 2011-10-16 09:27:26 <nathan7> 'mornin
 657 2011-10-16 09:27:31 <nathan7> g
 658 2011-10-16 09:27:42 <nathan7> What's this planet up to?
 659 2011-10-16 09:27:44 <jaromil> i was sad reading you left mainline you was the best and was stupid to see you living
 660 2011-10-16 09:27:52 <jaromil> i'm just a lurker but i do read code :)
 661 2011-10-16 09:27:56 <conman> http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/3.0/
 662 2011-10-16 09:27:58 <conman> there jaromil
 663 2011-10-16 09:27:59 <jaromil> ack
 664 2011-10-16 09:28:22 <jaromil> s/liv/leav/
 665 2011-10-16 09:28:41 <conman> thanks
 666 2011-10-16 09:29:06 <conman> unfortunately I'm seen as a bit of a troll these days, but what are you gonna do?
 667 2011-10-16 09:29:38 <jaromil> i know they bullied you but you are not a troll for sure
 668 2011-10-16 09:30:14 <jaromil> your code runs on millions of computers in lots of places, srsly. dynebolic 2 was distributed with it for several years also in south america, india, africa
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 670 2011-10-16 09:30:26 <conman> very cool
 671 2011-10-16 09:30:30 <jaromil> not by mistake i chose your patchset after testing
 672 2011-10-16 09:30:51 <gjs278> on an i7 for desktop use, what frequency should I run, 100, 250, or 1000 in the kernel config
 673 2011-10-16 09:31:03 <gjs278> the tick or whatever
 674 2011-10-16 09:31:09 <jaromil> ok nuff schmoosing i'm serious will have a look and i'm busy with http://dynebolic.org with a revamped distro
 675 2011-10-16 09:31:12 <gjs278> I've never changed it but I always wondered about it
 676 2011-10-16 09:31:13 <conman> 1000
 677 2011-10-16 09:31:17 <gjs278> ok
 678 2011-10-16 09:31:22 <conman> with dynticks
 679 2011-10-16 09:32:02 <conman> *click
 680 2011-10-16 09:32:37 <conman> sweet
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 684 2011-10-16 09:35:25 <gjs278> sweet ck-sources is a gentoo package already
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 752 2011-10-16 10:03:17 <midnightmagic> wtf man..
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 754 2011-10-16 10:05:31 <Ycros> gjs278: has been for many, many years :)
 755 2011-10-16 10:05:49 <gjs278> I'm going to try it out
 756 2011-10-16 10:05:53 <gjs278> they have 3.0.4
 757 2011-10-16 10:06:22 <Ycros> infact, the first time I used the ck kernel was on gentoo, many years ago, because it was just a package.
 758 2011-10-16 10:06:39 <gjs278> will I notice a difference right away or do I have to do something
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 824 2011-10-16 12:06:43 <urstroyer> greetings, does any1 have an idea how to get all accumulated transactionfees on the current network block which havn't be solved by the network yet? it seems there is no rpc call to the bitcoind available
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 826 2011-10-16 12:11:33 <Ycros> urstroyer: you'd have to write something to do that
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 829 2011-10-16 12:14:00 <urstroyer> so best practice would be to write a patch to bitcoind with a new call which will do the job, right?
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 837 2011-10-16 12:28:30 <Ycros> yep
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 842 2011-10-16 12:34:38 <UukGoblin> urstroyer, check getmemorypool
 843 2011-10-16 12:34:59 <UukGoblin> might take some parsing though
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 845 2011-10-16 12:39:22 <Ycros> yeah.
 846 2011-10-16 12:39:34 * Ycros implemented a custom RPC call about 2 hours ago
 847 2011-10-16 12:39:34 <Ycros> :P
 848 2011-10-16 12:39:54 <urstroyer> @uukgoblin thanks a lot thats exactly what i'am looking for. if i understand correctly it will make into version 0.5, thats good news
 849 2011-10-16 12:40:30 <Ycros> hmm hm
 850 2011-10-16 12:40:32 <UukGoblin> yup, should do
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 853 2011-10-16 12:43:37 <diki> if midstate is getting dropped in 0.5.0 how will it be included?
 854 2011-10-16 12:43:54 <diki> i mean how will the midstate be given to the miner?
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 856 2011-10-16 12:44:18 <wumpus> if it gets removed, you'll have to compute it yourself
 857 2011-10-16 12:44:24 <diki> lolwut?
 858 2011-10-16 12:45:30 <wumpus> as I understand it's just an intermediate state of the hashing algorithm so strictly spoken it's redundant
 859 2011-10-16 12:46:58 <sipa> it is
 860 2011-10-16 12:47:26 <sipa> and most miners do already calculate it anyway
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 862 2011-10-16 12:48:46 <sipa> the padded header is two times 64 bytes, call it B1 and B2. blockhash = H(H(B1|B2))
 863 2011-10-16 12:49:01 <sipa> but the H(B1 part can be precalculated, as the nonce is in B2
 864 2011-10-16 12:49:18 <sipa> that's midstate iirc
 865 2011-10-16 12:49:24 <Diablo-D3> you know
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 867 2011-10-16 12:49:37 <Diablo-D3> the bitcoin gui should notify you when its out of date
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 872 2011-10-16 12:52:03 <wumpus> it does
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 874 2011-10-16 12:53:25 <wumpus> sipa: there is really no reason to precompute it in the client then, especially for pools which have to handle a lot
 875 2011-10-16 12:54:11 <sipa> wumpus: no, and it is cumbersome to calculate it in bitcoind, because that requires a custom implementation of sha256 which allows inspecting the intermediate data structure
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 877 2011-10-16 12:54:55 <sipa> wumpus: how does the client notify you it's outdated?
 878 2011-10-16 12:55:32 <wumpus> you mean when it has to catch up with the block chain?
 879 2011-10-16 12:55:38 <wumpus> it starts spinning
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 881 2011-10-16 12:56:21 <sipa> i believe Diablo-D3 refers to the version of the client itself
 882 2011-10-16 12:56:42 <wumpus> oh right
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 884 2011-10-16 12:57:21 <wumpus> I wonder what a p2p way would be to find if the version is up to date, maybe handle it in the same way as the max block # and take the median of the peers it connects to...
 885 2011-10-16 12:57:40 <wumpus> then again, if the majority is outdated that wont help you
 886 2011-10-16 12:58:09 <Diablo-D3> er, yes, I meant what sipa said...
 887 2011-10-16 12:58:12 <Diablo-D3> but what did YOU mean?
 888 2011-10-16 12:58:19 <Diablo-D3> Im not aware of any other signals
 889 2011-10-16 12:58:21 <sipa> wumpus means the block chain being outdated
 890 2011-10-16 12:58:27 <wumpus> and simpy taking the maximum is open to abuse
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 892 2011-10-16 12:58:47 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 893 2011-10-16 12:58:56 <Diablo-D3> no, Im just interested in client version
 894 2011-10-16 12:59:02 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin rather silently releases new releases
 895 2011-10-16 12:59:13 <wumpus> maybe a system-wide message signed by gavin that reminds users to upgrade
 896 2011-10-16 12:59:29 <sipa> the alert system you mean?
 897 2011-10-16 12:59:32 <wumpus> yes
 898 2011-10-16 12:59:52 <wumpus> or something similar
 899 2011-10-16 13:00:25 <wumpus> it should just be a harmless notification not an 'alert' as such
 900 2011-10-16 13:00:47 <sipa> there were plans for some gitian based script that would detect new versions
 901 2011-10-16 13:00:55 <sipa> after they're signed by enough devs
 902 2011-10-16 13:01:15 <santacruz> Who can create 2-of-3 escrow ( or even 2-of-2 ) transactions patch? There is bounty for this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48215.0
 903 2011-10-16 13:01:18 <wumpus> but you really want to do it without the individial client instances having to 'phone home' to a central server
 904 2011-10-16 13:04:05 <sipa> wumpus: well, the release of new versions is inherently centralized
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 908 2011-10-16 13:06:00 <wumpus> maybe it could be combined with the seeding process, if we're going to call home do it at least all in one place
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 910 2011-10-16 13:06:44 <wumpus> with the list of peer nodes, also retrieve a signed message with the latest version
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 913 2011-10-16 13:08:42 <diki> too risky
 914 2011-10-16 13:09:03 <wumpus> risky? 
 915 2011-10-16 13:10:24 <wumpus> how can showing a warning to upgrade to the newest version (with a link to bitcoin.org) be risky? it's not like it starts auto-downloading or mutating its innards or something
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 917 2011-10-16 13:10:57 <wumpus> it's not Chrome :-)
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 919 2011-10-16 13:12:04 <rjk2> i like the idea of combining it with he bootstrap process
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 931 2011-10-16 13:30:36 <diki> wumpus:better not
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 933 2011-10-16 13:31:18 <wumpus> diki: why? better not what? I really don't get you
 934 2011-10-16 13:32:52 <diki> Im saying better drop the idea
 935 2011-10-16 13:33:00 <wumpus> I'm asking why
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 937 2011-10-16 13:34:28 <wumpus> Diablo-D3 has a good point that new releases are pretty silent, and unless we want everyone to subscribe to the developer mailing list the best way to notify current users would be something in the client itself
 938 2011-10-16 13:34:49 <wumpus> if people run newer versions this would improve the quality of the network
 939 2011-10-16 13:34:50 <diki> Better not, it compromises security
 940 2011-10-16 13:34:54 <wumpus> no it does not
 941 2011-10-16 13:35:06 <diki> If someone were to compromise gavin's PC..it would be bad
 942 2011-10-16 13:35:33 <wumpus> not really... releases are signed by multiple devs
 943 2011-10-16 13:35:42 <wumpus> take a look how the gitian system works it's pretty intruiging
 944 2011-10-16 13:37:09 <wumpus> not that it still wouldn't be bad if gavin's pc was compromised, but a new version notification doesn't change anything to that
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 970 2011-10-16 14:03:57 <ThomasV> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48533.0 <---developers read this
 971 2011-10-16 14:04:56 <sipa> bitcoin is not a payment processor
 972 2011-10-16 14:05:36 <sipa> and as for N1, the new qt UI solves a lot of the inconveniences
 973 2011-10-16 14:06:06 t3a has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 974 2011-10-16 14:06:08 <ThomasV> and N3?
 975 2011-10-16 14:06:20 <ThomasV> N3 is realy the easiest to fix
 976 2011-10-16 14:07:03 <sipa> N3 is just not true
 977 2011-10-16 14:07:08 <sipa> (keypool)]
 978 2011-10-16 14:07:08 <ThomasV> lol
 979 2011-10-16 14:07:16 <ThomasV> why?
 980 2011-10-16 14:07:34 <sipa> the wallet contains 100 (by default) pregenerated keys, for later use
 981 2011-10-16 14:07:44 <ThomasV> so what?
 982 2011-10-16 14:07:46 <sipa> precisely so that backups made up to 100 transactions ago work just fine
 983 2011-10-16 14:08:02 <ThomasV> that's not enough
 984 2011-10-16 14:08:12 <terrytibbs> You can increase it at will
 985 2011-10-16 14:08:36 <ThomasV> no, it's too difficult for users to fuck around with options
 986 2011-10-16 14:09:03 <ThomasV> finite pool should be the default
 987 2011-10-16 14:09:32 <sipa> finite pool will kill all privacy
 988 2011-10-16 14:09:41 <sipa> but i agree, there should be more convenient systems
 989 2011-10-16 14:09:51 <ThomasV> no, privacy ayatollahs can mess with the options
 990 2011-10-16 14:10:02 <ThomasV> they are the ones who read options
 991 2011-10-16 14:10:44 <ThomasV> and there's also the deterministic wallet solution
 992 2011-10-16 14:10:56 <Ycros> I think a finite pool, with a warning when the addresses are exhausted and it needs to generate more would be nice
 993 2011-10-16 14:11:11 <ThomasV> Ycros: yes
 994 2011-10-16 14:11:15 <Ycros> sort of a "warning: existing backups will be invalidated"
 995 2011-10-16 14:12:32 <luke-jr> ThomasV: N3 is solved by deterministic wallets
 996 2011-10-16 14:12:35 <ThomasV> and a choice, with the option to increase or not the keypool
 997 2011-10-16 14:12:37 <Ycros> ThomasV: confirmations... they can be a problem, yes, but there isn't much you can do within bitcoin. Some alternate chains have tried to solve this by doing things faster
 998 2011-10-16 14:12:56 <Ycros> I totally agree N1 sucks and should be fixed though
 999 2011-10-16 14:13:03 <luke-jr> N1 is not an issue
1000 2011-10-16 14:13:10 <ThomasV> Ycros: I know. I am not the OP, in case you did not see
1001 2011-10-16 14:13:13 <Ycros> two things come to mind: 1) more efficient blockchain download, 2) partial blockchain support
1002 2011-10-16 14:13:34 <ThomasV> I answered in the thread
1003 2011-10-16 14:13:36 <Ycros> luke-jr: oh please.
1004 2011-10-16 14:13:47 <sipa> bitcoin (at least the current implementation) is just not intended as a payment processor
1005 2011-10-16 14:13:57 <luke-jr> the statusbar shows "Synchronizing with network" and a spinning thing when it's not up to date
1006 2011-10-16 14:14:04 <sipa> i hope good ideas and implementations for them pop up soon
1007 2011-10-16 14:15:04 storrgie has joined
1008 2011-10-16 14:15:17 <conman> need trustworthy banks with secure interfaces that have the block chain for you and you just log in like any normal online banking
1009 2011-10-16 14:15:33 <sipa> that's one option, indeed
1010 2011-10-16 14:15:34 <conman> but that's a league above where we are atm
1011 2011-10-16 14:16:07 <conman> if it doesn't come to a grinding halt it's an inevitable evolution
1012 2011-10-16 14:16:53 <ThomasV> conman: no, we could do it differently
1013 2011-10-16 14:16:57 cdecker has left ()
1014 2011-10-16 14:17:24 <Ycros> luke-jr: yes, that's not the part that's stupid
1015 2011-10-16 14:17:34 <Ycros> luke-jr: how long it takes, and having to wait that long is stupid
1016 2011-10-16 14:17:36 <Blitzboom> ThomasV is a clever guy
1017 2011-10-16 14:17:39 <ThomasV> we need servers that give you the balance of each of your addresses, and that relay transactions to the bitcoin network
1018 2011-10-16 14:17:41 <Blitzboom> listen to him
1019 2011-10-16 14:17:46 <ThomasV> :-)
1020 2011-10-16 14:17:48 <Ycros> conman: mycoin did that
1021 2011-10-16 14:17:51 <sipa> there is no such thing as "balance of an address"
1022 2011-10-16 14:17:52 <Ycros> conman: then they got hacked
1023 2011-10-16 14:17:52 <Ycros> :P
1024 2011-10-16 14:17:56 <sipa> at least not in general
1025 2011-10-16 14:18:02 <conman> <conman> need trustworthy banks
1026 2011-10-16 14:18:06 <conman> Ycros, note the emphasis
1027 2011-10-16 14:18:14 <Ycros> what emphasis? ;)
1028 2011-10-16 14:18:28 <conman> SIGH
1029 2011-10-16 14:18:30 <conman> GNIGHT
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1033 2011-10-16 14:25:57 <UukGoblin> hmmm
1034 2011-10-16 14:26:04 <UukGoblin> even trustworthy banks might have a problem
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1036 2011-10-16 14:26:19 <UukGoblin> if for instance someone double spends and then mines a block confirming his second-spend
1037 2011-10-16 14:26:24 <UukGoblin> right?
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1039 2011-10-16 14:26:54 <sipa> a decent bitcoin payment processor will give merchant guarantees about payments
1040 2011-10-16 14:27:01 <sipa> i.e., insure against double spends
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1042 2011-10-16 14:27:32 <UukGoblin> ah, well
1043 2011-10-16 14:27:41 <UukGoblin> that could be exploited by malicious users
1044 2011-10-16 14:28:37 <sipa> sure
1045 2011-10-16 14:28:44 <sipa> but that's not the merchants' problem
1046 2011-10-16 14:29:17 <UukGoblin> one way would be for the payment processors to provide both clients and merchants with accounts
1047 2011-10-16 14:29:28 <UukGoblin> and have a standardized way of communicating transfers
1048 2011-10-16 14:30:37 <UukGoblin> i.e. we'd have N "bitcoin banks", each talking to each other via some protocol. Client would have an account at bank A, merchant at bank B. Using the protocol, banks A and B would negotiate the transfer instantly (assuming they trust each other, but they could have contracts signed for that)
1049 2011-10-16 14:30:53 <UukGoblin> ... and settle the bitcoin transfer at a later time
1050 2011-10-16 14:30:59 <sipa> then what do you need bitcoin for/
1051 2011-10-16 14:31:04 <sipa> that's just the current system
1052 2011-10-16 14:31:21 <UukGoblin> :-)
1053 2011-10-16 14:31:37 <UukGoblin> well, yeah, bitcoin's role would be reduced to just currency then, not a transfer network
1054 2011-10-16 14:31:58 <UukGoblin> but that'd give a chance to people who don't want to use banks to still do slow transfers between each other
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1071 2011-10-16 14:47:35 <Diablo-D3> [09:23:12] <diki> If someone were to compromise gavin's PC..it would be bad
1072 2011-10-16 14:47:37 <Diablo-D3> not really
1073 2011-10-16 14:47:50 <Diablo-D3> because thats going to happen anyhow no matter if we have a client notification or not
1074 2011-10-16 14:48:16 <Diablo-D3> and the releases are built from git, so whoever does it is also going to have to commit the changes to github
1075 2011-10-16 14:48:36 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin has a rather paranoid build system
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1080 2011-10-16 14:55:32 <Urgent> I have an assignment in my graduate level software engineering course to implement the block exchange in C only .. if I had block regardless of how I got it where to put it and what are the block index of the main branch
1081 2011-10-16 14:55:39 <Urgent> and what are the side branch
1082 2011-10-16 14:55:50 <Urgent> orphans
1083 2011-10-16 14:56:04 <Urgent> I concentrate on the abstract level
1084 2011-10-16 14:56:30 <Urgent> totally lost inside the c++ source
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1087 2011-10-16 14:59:38 <Urgent> ping!!
1088 2011-10-16 15:00:53 <sipa> Urgent: wow, where is that?
1089 2011-10-16 15:01:11 <sipa> i mean, what school
1090 2011-10-16 15:01:18 PK has quit ()
1091 2011-10-16 15:01:19 <Urgent> :)
1092 2011-10-16 15:01:37 <Urgent> some school any help?
1093 2011-10-16 15:01:47 <sipa> ?
1094 2011-10-16 15:01:48 <Urgent> the dealine is wednesday
1095 2011-10-16 15:02:01 <UukGoblin> lol glhf
1096 2011-10-16 15:02:05 <sipa> what exactly does the block exchange include?
1097 2011-10-16 15:02:15 <sipa> p2p exchange?
1098 2011-10-16 15:02:20 <sipa> verification?
1099 2011-10-16 15:02:24 <UukGoblin> what does "old versions harm the network" mean in the topic?
1100 2011-10-16 15:02:44 <UukGoblin> cause it sounds a bit like "we reserve the right to arbitrarily change network rules"
1101 2011-10-16 15:02:45 <sipa> UukGoblin: it mainly refers to the bug in 0.3.20-0.3.23 that caused disconnects when trnasmitting large amounts of data
1102 2011-10-16 15:02:49 <Urgent> May more precisly it is how to populate the block chain
1103 2011-10-16 15:03:00 <Urgent> without the network staff till now
1104 2011-10-16 15:03:06 <sipa> Urgent: do you have to keep track of transactions?
1105 2011-10-16 15:03:19 <UukGoblin> sipa, ah, haven't heard of that
1106 2011-10-16 15:03:20 <sipa> or just the block tree maintainance?
1107 2011-10-16 15:03:20 <Urgent> the whole project is implement a complete C client for bitcoin
1108 2011-10-16 15:03:31 <sipa> that's audacious
1109 2011-10-16 15:03:43 * UukGoblin still runs 0.3.14 on one box
1110 2011-10-16 15:03:52 <Urgent> tree maintanance
1111 2011-10-16 15:03:57 <UukGoblin> has 724 connections! :->
1112 2011-10-16 15:04:09 <Urgent> no I dont need tracking transaction for time being
1113 2011-10-16 15:04:18 <sipa> Urgent: ok, i'll try to help you
1114 2011-10-16 15:04:29 <sipa> what data structure do you have to / plan to use?
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1116 2011-10-16 15:05:09 <Urgent> mm I thought about linked list
1117 2011-10-16 15:05:32 <sipa> that won't be enough if you need to keep track of orphan blocks
1118 2011-10-16 15:05:38 <Urgent> because I find that blockIndes are like linked list and they keep track of hashes using maps
1119 2011-10-16 15:05:51 <sipa> i believe you can mimic the data structure used in bitcoind
1120 2011-10-16 15:06:00 <Urgent> orphan block are in separated list
1121 2011-10-16 15:06:13 <sipa> ok true
1122 2011-10-16 15:06:24 <sipa> but you also need to keep track of non-optimal alternative chains
1123 2011-10-16 15:06:28 <Urgent> I checke the client source the have blockIndex for orphans
1124 2011-10-16 15:06:33 <sipa> thay may turn into the longest chain
1125 2011-10-16 15:06:43 <Urgent> two of them one by prev
1126 2011-10-16 15:07:09 <sipa> yes, each block has a prev that references to its predecessor
1127 2011-10-16 15:07:23 <sipa> and those in the main chain have a next pointer that refers to their successor
1128 2011-10-16 15:07:26 <Urgent> yep!! the non_optimal  alternative!!
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1130 2011-10-16 15:07:45 <sipa> and when a block arrives
1131 2011-10-16 15:07:45 <Urgent> I lose my understanding when dive inside that
1132 2011-10-16 15:07:59 <sipa> you check whether its parent is known
1133 2011-10-16 15:08:10 <sipa> if so, you attach it to that parent
1134 2011-10-16 15:08:16 <sipa> just setting its prev
1135 2011-10-16 15:08:30 <sipa> and then you check whether it becomes the new best chain
1136 2011-10-16 15:08:53 <sipa> in which case you look for a common predecessor, break down the next pointers up to that point
1137 2011-10-16 15:08:54 <Urgent> what do u mean by mimc the bitcoind?
1138 2011-10-16 15:09:04 <sipa> its CBlockIndex structure
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1143 2011-10-16 15:09:33 <Urgent> can u please explain this for me?  I qouted from the comments in code:
1144 2011-10-16 15:11:06 <Urgent> A blockindex may have multiple pprev pointing back // to it, but pnext will only point forward to the longest branch, or will // be null if the block is not part of the longest chain.
1145 2011-10-16 15:11:14 <sipa> yes
1146 2011-10-16 15:11:17 <Urgent> A blockindex may have multiple pprev pointing back // to it, but pnext will only point forward to the longest branch, or will // be null if the block is not part of the longest chain.
1147 2011-10-16 15:11:29 <sipa> assume you have two alternative chains
1148 2011-10-16 15:11:44 <sipa> A->B->C->D, and A->B'->C'
1149 2011-10-16 15:12:07 <sipa> so you have 6 blocks, and in each of the pprev points to the parent
1150 2011-10-16 15:12:39 <sipa> so A.pprev is null, B.pprev = A, C.pprev = B, D.pprev = C, B'.pprev = A, C'.pprev = B'
1151 2011-10-16 15:12:42 <sipa> ok?
1152 2011-10-16 15:13:01 <Urgent> ok
1153 2011-10-16 15:13:11 <sipa> now, only those in the main chain have a pnext
1154 2011-10-16 15:13:12 <Urgent> how can I implement this?
1155 2011-10-16 15:13:22 <sipa> i assume you know C?
1156 2011-10-16 15:13:29 <Urgent> its linked list ?
1157 2011-10-16 15:13:34 <sipa> yes and no
1158 2011-10-16 15:13:36 <sipa> it is a tree
1159 2011-10-16 15:13:42 <Urgent> aha
1160 2011-10-16 15:13:44 <sipa> each node points to its parent
1161 2011-10-16 15:13:56 <sipa> but within that tree, there are some nodes that also point to their successor
1162 2011-10-16 15:13:57 <Urgent> but with may unbalanced leaves?
1163 2011-10-16 15:14:01 <sipa> and those for a linked list
1164 2011-10-16 15:14:02 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
1165 2011-10-16 15:14:05 <sipa> yes, no balancing
1166 2011-10-16 15:14:15 <Urgent> aha
1167 2011-10-16 15:14:16 <sipa> the organisation is based on the block succession
1168 2011-10-16 15:15:09 <Urgent> tree... mmm
1169 2011-10-16 15:15:37 <Urgent> tree + linked list
1170 2011-10-16 15:16:24 <Urgent> sorry if am asking now silly question: tree node ahase right and left... right is the next? and there is no left?
1171 2011-10-16 15:16:24 <sipa> yes, it forms a tree and a linked list at the same time
1172 2011-10-16 15:16:41 <Urgent> uless I need it for mulltiple previous?
1173 2011-10-16 15:16:47 <sipa> the tree is only defined by letting nodes know their parent
1174 2011-10-16 15:16:56 <sipa> so there is no way to find all children of a given node
1175 2011-10-16 15:17:00 <sipa> you never need to
1176 2011-10-16 15:17:13 <Urgent> i got u
1177 2011-10-16 15:17:24 <sipa> you only need to be able to find the successor if you are in the main chain
1178 2011-10-16 15:17:26 <Urgent> it like double-linked list
1179 2011-10-16 15:17:29 <sipa> and that is what pnext is for
1180 2011-10-16 15:17:29 <sipa> yes
1181 2011-10-16 15:17:46 <sipa> all chains are in a single-linked list upwards
1182 2011-10-16 15:17:53 <sipa> but the main chain is in a doubly-linked list
1183 2011-10-16 15:18:26 <Urgent> what about maps?
1184 2011-10-16 15:18:41 <Urgent> I feel like dpressed when I come to them..
1185 2011-10-16 15:19:22 <sipa> you'll need a map to find a block by its hash
1186 2011-10-16 15:19:30 <sipa> forget about orphans for now
1187 2011-10-16 15:19:59 redMBA has joined
1188 2011-10-16 15:21:30 <Urgent> struct BlockIndex * mapBlockIndex; struct BlockIndex * mapOrphanBlocks; struct BlockIndex * mapOrphanBlocksByPrev; struct BlockIndex * pindexBest = NULL; struct BlockIndex * pindexGenesisBlock = NULL;
1189 2011-10-16 15:22:06 Jefff2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1190 2011-10-16 15:23:25 <Urgent> please to leave me
1191 2011-10-16 15:25:07 <sipa> ?
1192 2011-10-16 15:26:14 <Urgent> all the structure there in the bitcoin have both prev and next
1193 2011-10-16 15:26:30 <Urgent> I cant figure out ehere is the main?\
1194 2011-10-16 15:26:49 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1195 2011-10-16 15:26:58 <Urgent> there is the genisusblockIndex and another one called the bestchani
1196 2011-10-16 15:27:09 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1197 2011-10-16 15:27:13 <sipa> those are the top and the bottom of the doubly-linked list
1198 2011-10-16 15:27:18 <Urgent> and there is blockindex without clarification
1199 2011-10-16 15:27:26 <sipa> forget the source
1200 2011-10-16 15:27:31 <sipa> it'll confuse you
1201 2011-10-16 15:27:53 <Urgent> then what is the reference?
1202 2011-10-16 15:28:14 <sipa> what reference?
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1204 2011-10-16 15:28:56 <Urgent> I mean where I can go to get more technical specification?
1205 2011-10-16 15:29:13 <Urgent> I read the Block exchange mechanisim
1206 2011-10-16 15:29:31 <sipa> the source code is the reference on that field, i'm afraid
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1209 2011-10-16 15:30:50 <Urgent> blockchain in the wiki, and protcol specification
1210 2011-10-16 15:31:34 <Urgent> they are all useful but cant guide me in coding
1211 2011-10-16 15:32:10 <Urgent> I eliminated every thing to the minimaml and I ended up with first implemeting the block download
1212 2011-10-16 15:32:45 <Urgent> and to populate the three data sturctures  : main,  branches, orphans
1213 2011-10-16 15:32:49 <Eliel> Urgent: what are you trying to code and why do you need to understand the blockchain datastructure bitcoind uses?
1214 2011-10-16 15:33:31 <Urgent> I have  have a project in my graduate software engineering courese
1215 2011-10-16 15:33:42 <Urgent> to implement the whole client in c
1216 2011-10-16 15:34:15 <Urgent> and I choosed the part regarding teh block-chain
1217 2011-10-16 15:34:47 <Urgent> without networking for now I mean messages till getting the data
1218 2011-10-16 15:35:00 <Urgent> and withou care about transactions
1219 2011-10-16 15:35:49 <Urgent> sipa gave me clear idea about the structure I was confused if it is tree or linked list
1220 2011-10-16 15:36:29 <sipa> Urgent: you need exactly as much as the c++ source code does: a pointer to the previous block (for each block), and a point to the successor block (for all blocks in the main chain)
1221 2011-10-16 15:36:34 <sipa> *pointer
1222 2011-10-16 15:36:35 <Urgent> and I dont know how to implement maps and vectors .. they extermly helpful in c++ .. but I have to do it in c...
1223 2011-10-16 15:36:50 <sipa> use glib or something
1224 2011-10-16 15:37:50 <Urgent> it must be under mit license
1225 2011-10-16 15:38:30 <Urgent> sipa u mean I need only one block index?
1226 2011-10-16 15:38:41 <Urgent> or three?
1227 2011-10-16 15:38:53 <sipa> three?
1228 2011-10-16 15:39:10 <sipa> a CBlockIndex in the c++ source code is just a reference to a block
1229 2011-10-16 15:39:11 <Urgent> yes
1230 2011-10-16 15:39:49 <Urgent> then where is the main store?????!!
1231 2011-10-16 15:40:33 <Urgent> its the building atom of the tree as I understood
1232 2011-10-16 15:40:37 <UukGoblin> <guess>in bdb, on the disk</guess>
1233 2011-10-16 15:41:04 <sipa> Urgent: there is just one tree in memory
1234 2011-10-16 15:41:27 <Urgent> where in code I can catch it?
1235 2011-10-16 15:41:47 <sipa> it is pointed to by pindexGenesis (its bottom), pindexBest (the top of the main chain), and the map that maps block hashes to CBlockIndex'es, mapBlockIndex
1236 2011-10-16 15:42:06 <sipa> those three things all point different parts of one single tree
1237 2011-10-16 15:42:18 <Urgent> aha
1238 2011-10-16 15:42:34 <sipa> the name Index in CBlockIndex is confusing
1239 2011-10-16 15:42:44 <sipa> it should be CBlockPointer
1240 2011-10-16 15:42:59 <Urgent> all  branches need to be tracked back to the genisus block?
1241 2011-10-16 15:43:16 <sipa> yes, that is the root of the tree
1242 2011-10-16 15:43:57 <Urgent> genisus block has multiple next?
1243 2011-10-16 15:44:21 <Urgent> that cotradictes the assumbtion
1244 2011-10-16 15:45:17 <sipa> *sigh*
1245 2011-10-16 15:45:26 <sipa> any block can have any number of successors
1246 2011-10-16 15:45:48 <sipa> but you only need to be able to find a successor that belongs to the main chain
1247 2011-10-16 15:45:53 <sipa> so that's the pnext
1248 2011-10-16 15:46:31 <Urgent> tke this senario: block A is being processed .. I dont have it >> I have it parent >> add this block as next for that parent which I can pont to it using best?
1249 2011-10-16 15:47:21 <sipa> 1) you store the block; this means finding its parent, and make the new blocks' pprev point to the parent
1250 2011-10-16 15:48:21 <sipa> 2) you check whether this block you've adding makes it part of the new best chain, in which case you chase the pprev's to the top, and adjust the pnext's along the way to the block you case from
1251 2011-10-16 15:50:43 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVM•AVTEM•CENSEO•FDP•ESSE•DELENDVM)
1252 2011-10-16 15:52:37 <[Tycho]> Did some bitcoin resource was hacked recently ?
1253 2011-10-16 15:52:55 <Urgent> I will give it a try
1254 2011-10-16 15:53:17 <Urgent> wish me  abundle of luck .. really terified
1255 2011-10-16 15:53:49 <Urgent> its really difficult .. I spent more than 8hours/day jsut to understand the code..
1256 2011-10-16 15:53:56 <Urgent> bye for now
1257 2011-10-16 15:54:04 <Urgent> thanx a lot sipa..
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1287 2011-10-16 16:38:57 <subpar> just had to restart box running bitcoind and can't get the process to start cleanly (it hangs)
1288 2011-10-16 16:39:31 <subpar> I kinda remember having to add something after bitcoind like --nodaemon (back with 0.3.21)
1289 2011-10-16 16:39:56 <terrytibbs> What do you mean by "hangs"?
1290 2011-10-16 16:40:14 <subpar> terrytibbs: pardon my lack of technical prowess
1291 2011-10-16 16:40:47 <subpar> terrytibbs: after running the command I can hit enter numerous times and cannot get back to a command prompt
1292 2011-10-16 16:41:01 <terrytibbs> subpar: Windows, I take it?
1293 2011-10-16 16:41:09 <subpar> no sir
1294 2011-10-16 16:41:11 datagutt has joined
1295 2011-10-16 16:41:12 <subpar> linux
1296 2011-10-16 16:41:17 <subpar> and old Ubuntu box
1297 2011-10-16 16:41:30 <terrytibbs> bitcoind getinfo
1298 2011-10-16 16:41:33 <terrytibbs> And it should break out
1299 2011-10-16 16:41:34 <sipa> subpar: but does it run or not?
1300 2011-10-16 16:41:48 <casascius> ./bitcoind &
1301 2011-10-16 16:42:10 <subpar> terrytibbs: I can get it to work with gentinfo and listtransactions but the terminal with the command "hanging" stays as such
1302 2011-10-16 16:42:22 <subpar> casascius: that is what i was about to try
1303 2011-10-16 16:42:25 <terrytibbs> Ctrl + C?
1304 2011-10-16 16:42:30 <casascius> that is how i do
1305 2011-10-16 16:42:30 <casascius> it
1306 2011-10-16 16:42:36 <subpar> terrytibbs: that kills it
1307 2011-10-16 16:42:42 <terrytibbs> It shouldn't
1308 2011-10-16 16:42:46 <casascius> and if you do "bitcoind stop" on another terminal, the first one should exit, right?
1309 2011-10-16 16:43:22 <casascius> you can do Ctrl-Z which pauses it and returns you to a shell prompt, then "bg" to run it as background
1310 2011-10-16 16:43:27 <casascius> or just , bitcoind &
1311 2011-10-16 16:44:15 <subpar>  BTC/bitcoin-0.4.0-linux/bin/64/bitcoind
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1313 2011-10-16 16:44:18 <subpar> and it hangs
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1315 2011-10-16 16:44:56 <subpar> just did getinto in another terminal (ssh session) and still "hung"
1316 2011-10-16 16:46:20 <subpar> ctl+z and bg seems to be working
1317 2011-10-16 16:46:58 <subpar> not very "clean" but it works
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1348 2011-10-16 17:48:54 <neofutur> ;;bc,stats
1349 2011-10-16 17:48:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 149536 | Current Difficulty: 1468195.4272208 | Next Difficulty At Block: 151199 | Next Difficulty In: 1663 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 11 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1355866.07576361 | Estimated Percent Change: -7.65084466103
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1371 2011-10-16 18:25:27 <Joric> whoa http://www.blockchain.info/nodes-globe
1372 2011-10-16 18:32:59 <Joric> i don't quite get its stats it says 137.77 megawatt hours and electricity should cost $20,664.80 (per hour?) so every hour we're buying ~6 blocks for 20 grands? )
1373 2011-10-16 18:33:35 <Joric> that's about 60 dollars per btc
1374 2011-10-16 18:35:29 <Eliel> I think that's per day, not per hour
1375 2011-10-16 18:37:00 <Joric> $2.4 then
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1391 2011-10-16 19:20:20 <Lolcust_Backup> Hello everyone!
1392 2011-10-16 19:20:43 <Lolcust_Backup> could someone give me a hint as to oclvanitygen 's quirk ?
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1397 2011-10-16 19:24:14 <terrytibbs> Lolcust_Backup: -X 127
1398 2011-10-16 19:25:02 <Lolcust_Backup> terrytibbs: nah, that I figured out, ^__^ the problem now is that at first it reports things like 97% probability in 1 min
1399 2011-10-16 19:25:15 <Lolcust_Backup> And then keeps crunching, and crunching and crunching
1400 2011-10-16 19:25:40 <Lolcust_Backup> For  a test, I fed oclvanityget a simple pattern, and it didn't find anything
1401 2011-10-16 19:27:48 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1402 2011-10-16 19:31:02 <terrytibbs> regex?
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1405 2011-10-16 19:32:26 <Lolcust_Backup> terrytibbs: awww, I like using the vanilla prefix matcher.
1406 2011-10-16 19:32:44 <Lolcust_Backup> terrytibbs: but I will try regex, though it hurts my brain
1407 2011-10-16 19:36:49 <terrytibbs> No, I was asking if you were using regex.
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1409 2011-10-16 19:37:49 <Lolcust_Backup> well, no I am not. it shows 99% now (still not using the regex, prefix being searched is tTest) and was doing so for last minute or so
1410 2011-10-16 19:38:01 <Lolcust_Backup> ocl verstion seems to hate me for some reason
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1412 2011-10-16 19:41:17 <nathan7>  /g #hack42
1413 2011-10-16 19:41:20 <nathan7> derp.
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1441 2011-10-16 20:50:25 <dikidera> Dunno who owns the bitcoin forum now
1442 2011-10-16 20:50:43 <dikidera> but if possible can the owner or a mod make a sticky with a link to Bluemat's nightly blockchain archives
1443 2011-10-16 20:50:57 <dikidera> i am pretty sure users would rather Download that archive that the blockchain for a whole day
1444 2011-10-16 20:51:05 <dikidera> s/that/than
1445 2011-10-16 20:55:48 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1446 2011-10-16 20:56:53 zhoutong has joined
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1448 2011-10-16 21:11:44 odysseus654 has joined
1449 2011-10-16 21:11:56 <odysseus654> well good morning to you too BCBot
1450 2011-10-16 21:12:14 webcamstudio has joined
1451 2011-10-16 21:12:52 BlueMatt has joined
1452 2011-10-16 21:13:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ping
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1462 2011-10-16 21:24:56 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell gavinandresen should bitcoin-qt exe name be bitcoin-qt or bitcoin (on linux + win32) as bitcoin-wx was always called bitcoin, and will it mess up scripts?
1463 2011-10-16 21:24:56 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1464 2011-10-16 21:25:01 luke-jr has joined
1465 2011-10-16 21:26:47 <odysseus654> interesting butler person
1466 2011-10-16 21:27:53 mizerydearia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1467 2011-10-16 21:30:56 casascius has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1468 2011-10-16 21:31:36 <odysseus654> so... is there a process for changing BDB4 wallets to BDB5 wallets?  i'm guessing some kind of (auto-)upgrade process may be on the todo list somewhere?
1469 2011-10-16 21:32:28 zapnap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1471 2011-10-16 21:33:13 <BlueMatt> bdb5 wallets are unsupported
1472 2011-10-16 21:33:16 amtal has joined
1473 2011-10-16 21:33:27 <odysseus654> that's what current tip is using, right?
1474 2011-10-16 21:33:34 <BlueMatt> tip uses 4.8
1475 2011-10-16 21:33:36 webcamstudio has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1476 2011-10-16 21:33:41 <BlueMatt> tip actually uses whatever you have installed
1477 2011-10-16 21:33:42 <odysseus654> ok, must have misread it then
1478 2011-10-16 21:33:44 <BlueMatt> but releases use 4.8
1479 2011-10-16 21:33:54 <odysseus654> there was a .zip file it had me download somewhere
1480 2011-10-16 21:34:15 <BlueMatt> just opening bitcoin compiled against bdb5 on a 4.8 wallet will upgrade it to bdb5
1481 2011-10-16 21:34:25 <BlueMatt> though you wont be able to use the release versions of bitcoin on that wallet anymore
1482 2011-10-16 21:34:56 <odysseus654> ok, very confusing wording in the build instructions then
1483 2011-10-16 21:34:59 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1484 2011-10-16 21:35:02 ircuser-6 has joined
1485 2011-10-16 21:35:04 <odysseus654> "Now the nasty thing is that databases from 5.X are not compatible with 4.X."
1486 2011-10-16 21:35:15 <odysseus654> figured tip was higher than 4.8 from that
1487 2011-10-16 21:35:40 <BlueMatt> where is that?
1488 2011-10-16 21:35:56 <odysseus654> ah ok, that's a warning to people that have BDB5 as their global installed version
1489 2011-10-16 21:35:58 <BlueMatt> nvm...
1490 2011-10-16 21:36:21 <odysseus654> i need to read these thigns more slowly, lol
1491 2011-10-16 21:37:05 <da2ce7> any bitcoiners in Prauge?  I'm there on vacation.
1492 2011-10-16 21:37:11 mizerydearia has joined
1493 2011-10-16 21:37:23 <odysseus654> BlueMatt: i've been using your bitcointools btw, thanks for that, very useful :-)
1494 2011-10-16 21:37:54 <BlueMatt> those were written by gavin, I just made some minor changes to make them more useful for recovery...
1495 2011-10-16 21:38:12 <BlueMatt> (which Ive been meaning to rewrite for like the past 2+ months)
1496 2011-10-16 21:38:45 <odysseus654> hey, they were modern enough to read encrypted wallets at least, i'm guessing 0.4 did a fair number of structural changes
1497 2011-10-16 21:38:51 <BlueMatt> (see https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/pull/12)
1498 2011-10-16 21:39:46 <BlueMatt> oh, if you were using the master branch, that is just the original bitcointools modified to support 0.4 encryption
1499 2011-10-16 21:39:59 <odysseus654> not used to git yet, not easy to find the "official version" of anything
1500 2011-10-16 21:40:03 <odysseus654> ok
1501 2011-10-16 21:40:05 <BlueMatt> (though gavin reimplemented that as he missed my having done it, so his master diverges...)
1502 2011-10-16 21:40:24 <BlueMatt> look at the top, where it says forked from...
1503 2011-10-16 21:40:27 <BlueMatt> that is the original
1504 2011-10-16 21:40:39 t3a has joined
1505 2011-10-16 21:41:26 <odysseus654> yah, well the original may not be the official version either, i've seen a fair number of projects that were forked from abandoned repos...
1506 2011-10-16 21:41:40 <BlueMatt> yep, thats always a problem too
1507 2011-10-16 21:42:40 erle- has joined
1508 2011-10-16 21:43:10 <dikidera> BlueMatt:just to ask but is the 4way algorithm for cpu mining...still possible to "upgrade" i.e squeze more performance?
1509 2011-10-16 21:43:24 <dikidera> squeeze*
1510 2011-10-16 21:45:14 <gmaxwell> dikidera: No, in fact 4way uses the MMX registers at the same time as the FPU stack in order to form a time-like loop and actually discover solutions before it calculates them. Before of this its not possible to make it any faster. Ever. In fact, running your cpu at high clock rates makes the hashing slower due to parabolic deceleration.
1511 2011-10-16 21:45:26 <gmaxwell> s/Before/Because/
1512 2011-10-16 21:45:56 <dikidera> too bad
1513 2011-10-16 21:46:02 <dikidera> i expected more of the algo
1514 2011-10-16 21:46:27 <Diablo-D3> acctualllyyy
1515 2011-10-16 21:46:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ...
1516 2011-10-16 21:46:34 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it MAY be possible to make it faster.
1517 2011-10-16 21:46:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: trololololololol
1518 2011-10-16 21:46:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: run it on an FX with its new massive int alu dick.
1519 2011-10-16 21:46:57 <Diablo-D3> :D
1520 2011-10-16 21:46:57 <gmaxwell> In other news, I have several bridges for sale— just send bitcoin to 1LjPAUKf23kDBy9sLJbiLfsvjde3ZdHcbJ to register your interest in the bidding process.
1521 2011-10-16 21:47:00 groffer has joined
1522 2011-10-16 21:47:01 <dikidera> Diablo-D3:do you?
1523 2011-10-16 21:47:12 * Diablo-D3 smacks diki
1524 2011-10-16 21:47:23 <Diablo-D3> whats the point of trolling if people dont even get the punchline
1525 2011-10-16 21:47:44 <dikidera> Diablo-D3:dont troll then?
1526 2011-10-16 21:47:50 * Diablo-D3 smacks diki
1527 2011-10-16 21:47:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: doesnt happen to be this one does it: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11280/1180364-455.stm
1528 2011-10-16 21:48:23 <Diablo-D3> holy shit, a whole bridge?
1529 2011-10-16 21:48:35 <dikidera> Diablo-D3:thats nothing
1530 2011-10-16 21:48:48 <dikidera> here the local gypsys were stealing a whole building
1531 2011-10-16 21:48:50 <dikidera> bit by biut
1532 2011-10-16 21:48:53 <dikidera> *bit
1533 2011-10-16 21:48:54 dissipate has joined
1534 2011-10-16 21:48:57 AStove has quit ()
1535 2011-10-16 21:49:00 <BlueMatt> ...
1536 2011-10-16 21:49:14 <dikidera> the thing is, they were living in it
1537 2011-10-16 21:49:15 <dikidera> haha
1538 2011-10-16 21:49:17 <Diablo-D3> dikidera: [Citation Needed]
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1552 2011-10-16 22:24:54 <gmaxwell> Anyone know if the UPNP reregisters itself periodically and or if it needs to? There was someone reporting in #bitcoin last week that their upnp pinhole was going away after the client had been up for a few hours.
1553 2011-10-16 22:25:26 <gmaxwell> That may explain why the deployment of UPNP doesn't appear to have created a big increase in listening nodes.
1554 2011-10-16 22:25:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it needs to
1555 2011-10-16 22:26:03 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1556 2011-10-16 22:26:04 <Diablo-D3> dunno if it actually does, but iirc unpn has a timeout
1557 2011-10-16 22:26:08 <Diablo-D3> er, pnp
1558 2011-10-16 22:26:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: read that?
1559 2011-10-16 22:27:41 marf_away has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1560 2011-10-16 22:28:29 BurtyB has joined
1561 2011-10-16 22:33:29 Xunie has joined
1562 2011-10-16 22:40:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sipa nfc
1563 2011-10-16 22:40:58 <BlueMatt> afaik it shouldnt need to (or the examples miniupnpc gives dont)
1564 2011-10-16 22:42:06 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: should still have made a difference...
1565 2011-10-16 22:42:29 <gmaxwell> It makes sense to me that it would have to renew— after all what happens if you crash? does the pinhole stay open forever?
1566 2011-10-16 22:43:46 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1567 2011-10-16 22:43:54 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: apparently
1568 2011-10-16 22:44:01 <gmaxwell> really? well then!
1569 2011-10-16 22:44:07 <Diablo-D3> some routers WONT clean entires
1570 2011-10-16 22:44:11 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1571 2011-10-16 22:44:36 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1572 2011-10-16 22:44:45 <gmaxwell> Periodic renewing probably makes sense in general— if nothing else what happens if the router gets rebooted?
1573 2011-10-16 22:45:00 <Diablo-D3> if the router gets rebooted you obviously have to spam it again
1574 2011-10-16 22:46:07 * BlueMatt doesnt have access to a router atm...can someone else do the digging?
1575 2011-10-16 22:47:07 <BlueMatt> (see if miniupnpc has an refresh method)
1576 2011-10-16 22:50:55 * Diablo-D3 checks the damned rfx
1577 2011-10-16 22:50:57 <Diablo-D3> er rfc
1578 2011-10-16 22:51:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: about to disappear again for dinner... re: "bitcoin" vs "bitcoin-qt"  : should be bitcoin-qt, in my humble opinion.  Was a mistake to confuse bitcoin-the-currency with bitcoin-the-client in the first place (again, in my humble opinion)
1579 2011-10-16 22:52:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I have little preference, I would just say bitcoin because various scripts might depend on that
1580 2011-10-16 22:52:16 <BlueMatt> but -qt works fine too
1581 2011-10-16 22:52:19 <gavinandresen> if you're scripting, you're probably using bitcoind ....
1582 2011-10-16 22:52:34 <Diablo-D3> " The RECOMMENDED Port Mapping Lifetime is 3600 seconds."
1583 2011-10-16 22:52:36 <BlueMatt> yep, hence why I have little preference...
1584 2011-10-16 22:52:38 <Diablo-D3> from the rfc.
1585 2011-10-16 22:52:51 <Diablo-D3> so 1 whole day
1586 2011-10-16 22:53:04 * BlueMatt highly doubts many routers/programs bother to carefully implement the rfc...
1587 2011-10-16 22:53:11 <BlueMatt> esp consumer-grade routers
1588 2011-10-16 22:53:15 <Diablo-D3> no, but it proves it exists
1589 2011-10-16 22:53:41 <da2ce7> Port mappins suck on so many routers, the only way to get it to work reliably is to use a new random port every 4h or so.
1590 2011-10-16 22:53:42 <Diablo-D3> the rfc says the router can also tie it to the dhcp lease
1591 2011-10-16 22:53:54 <gmaxwell> PNP_UpdatePinhole
1592 2011-10-16 22:53:55 <Diablo-D3> so if the lease dies, the mapping can die too
1593 2011-10-16 22:54:06 <BlueMatt> currently we use no expiration
1594 2011-10-16 22:54:15 <BlueMatt> someone care to fix that, we already have a thread for upnp
1595 2011-10-16 22:54:17 <da2ce7> utorrent dose it well with their 'use a random port on load, and UPNP'
1596 2011-10-16 22:54:30 <gmaxwell> Doesn't mean that devices may not cap the expiration timeout.
1597 2011-10-16 22:54:32 <Diablo-D3> yeah, utorrent has very paranoid upnp code
1598 2011-10-16 22:54:42 <gmaxwell> So there is an update call. There are also status calls.
1599 2011-10-16 22:54:42 <Diablo-D3> btw, bitcoin IS unmapping the port, right?
1600 2011-10-16 22:55:01 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: yes
1601 2011-10-16 22:55:05 <Diablo-D3> good
1602 2011-10-16 22:55:13 <Diablo-D3> so just map/unmap every 4 hours.
1603 2011-10-16 22:55:27 <BlueMatt> would be very easy to do...someone care to code it?
1604 2011-10-16 22:55:38 <gmaxwell> It might make sense to just request the port for a half hour and then update it every 30 minutes or so. This would also let bitcoin cope with external IP changes.
1605 2011-10-16 22:55:52 gjs278 has joined
1606 2011-10-16 22:56:40 <BlueMatt> there are also methods to check with the router to see if the port is still mapped...
1607 2011-10-16 22:58:40 dissipate has joined
1608 2011-10-16 22:59:02 <gmaxwell> I'd guess it would just be better to update it unconditionally. God knows if things actually implement the status correctly.  Whomever works on this should go and look carefully at what some popular torrent app does.
1609 2011-10-16 22:59:27 <Diablo-D3> utorrent has the best upnp stack
1610 2011-10-16 22:59:43 <Diablo-D3> the author spent months looking at wireshark shit on a bunch of different routers
1611 2011-10-16 22:59:43 <BlueMatt> last I checked utorrent isnt oss
1612 2011-10-16 22:59:45 <da2ce7> utorrent is closed source.
1613 2011-10-16 22:59:49 <BlueMatt> maybe transmission?
1614 2011-10-16 22:59:50 <Diablo-D3> yup, sadly its closed source
1615 2011-10-16 22:59:55 <Diablo-D3> but its the best
1616 2011-10-16 22:59:59 <Diablo-D3> and you CAN look at what he did
1617 2011-10-16 23:00:10 <BlueMatt> ok...does someone have time to do this?
1618 2011-10-16 23:00:20 <da2ce7> just load up wireshark and log the upnp
1619 2011-10-16 23:00:23 <Diablo-D3> its probably absurdly simple like force-retry periodically while trying to clean up appropriately
1620 2011-10-16 23:00:32 <da2ce7> but you don't know what bug-dection stuff they have.
1621 2011-10-16 23:00:52 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: easier to assume its buggy as fuck by default, and then just try to clean up
1622 2011-10-16 23:00:57 <cjdelisle> you could join #bittorrent and ask the utorrent devs nicely if they will share their basic methods
1623 2011-10-16 23:01:19 <cjdelisle> just because it's not open doesn't mean they won't be willing to help
1624 2011-10-16 23:01:31 <Diablo-D3> he may have even documented it
1625 2011-10-16 23:02:31 erus` has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238])
1626 2011-10-16 23:02:49 <BlueMatt> anyone want to track down, check, and then force g++ to ignore "warning: not protecting function: no buffer at least 8 bytes long"
1627 2011-10-16 23:03:06 <Diablo-D3> lol c++
1628 2011-10-16 23:03:33 <cjdelisle> that looks like something with my patch
1629 2011-10-16 23:03:49 <BlueMatt> "util.h:227"
1630 2011-10-16 23:03:55 <BlueMatt> and "db.cpp:952"
1631 2011-10-16 23:04:00 <cjdelisle> but mine was supposed to implement -fstack-protector-all which doesn't care about the lack of buffers
1632 2011-10-16 23:05:00 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1633 2011-10-16 23:05:04 <cjdelisle> what is the system you're building on?
1634 2011-10-16 23:06:01 <cjdelisle> btw if anything weird happens with that stuff, feel free to highlight me, I'm not always reading backscroll but I'm happy to look at anything that might have to do with my patch.
1635 2011-10-16 23:06:03 <BlueMatt> ubuntu, gitian
1636 2011-10-16 23:06:21 davex__ has joined
1637 2011-10-16 23:06:27 <BlueMatt> pretty much just make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
1638 2011-10-16 23:06:39 <BlueMatt> lucid
1639 2011-10-16 23:08:03 <cjdelisle> that's -Wstack-protector warning you that there are unprotected functions, what I don't understand is why -fstack-protector-all doesn't properly override the <8 byte buffer rule
1640 2011-10-16 23:08:50 <Diablo-D3> because it does it all? ;)
1641 2011-10-16 23:09:24 Giel has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1642 2011-10-16 23:09:49 <Diablo-D3>        -fstack-protector
1643 2011-10-16 23:09:56 <Diablo-D3>  This includes functions that
1644 2011-10-16 23:09:56 <Diablo-D3>            call alloca, and functions with buffers larger than 8 bytes.
1645 2011-10-16 23:10:10 <Diablo-D3>        -fstack-protector-all
1646 2011-10-16 23:10:10 <Diablo-D3>            Like -fstack-protector except that all functions are protected.
1647 2011-10-16 23:10:26 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: so, yes, it does override it.
1648 2011-10-16 23:10:45 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1649 2011-10-16 23:10:48 <cjdelisle> Yes which is why I am confused that -Wstack-protector would still complain
1650 2011-10-16 23:11:14 <Diablo-D3> huh, dunno
1651 2011-10-16 23:11:20 <Diablo-D3> make sure the correct cflags are being used
1652 2011-10-16 23:11:25 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: because really small buffers are unlikely to be risks, and they're expensive to instrument?
1653 2011-10-16 23:11:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: no, yes using -fstack-protect-all vs -fstack-protect
1654 2011-10-16 23:11:54 <Diablo-D3> the difference is without -all it ignores anything under 8
1655 2011-10-16 23:12:21 b4epoche_ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1656 2011-10-16 23:12:23 <gmaxwell> I thought there was a size threshold knob?
1657 2011-10-16 23:12:31 <Diablo-D3> that IS the knob
1658 2011-10-16 23:12:33 <Diablo-D3> its an on/off switch
1659 2011-10-16 23:13:15 subconscious has quit (Excess Flood)
1660 2011-10-16 23:13:31 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: also, I hate circular buffers
1661 2011-10-16 23:13:41 <cjdelisle> there is a switch and a knob, my patch uses the switch
1662 2011-10-16 23:14:01 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: Im not seeing the knob
1663 2011-10-16 23:14:39 <Diablo-D3>            -fsplit-ivs-in-unroller -fsplit-wide-types -fstack-protector
1664 2011-10-16 23:14:39 <Diablo-D3>            -fstack-protector-all -fstrict-aliasing -fstrict-overflow
1665 2011-10-16 23:14:43 Giel has joined
1666 2011-10-16 23:14:47 <Diablo-D3> no knob
1667 2011-10-16 23:15:13 <cjdelisle> http://wiki.debian.org/Hardening#DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_STACKPROTECTOR_.28gcc.2BAC8-g.2B-.2B-_-fstack-protector_--param_ssp-buffer-size.3D4.29
1668 2011-10-16 23:15:16 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: --param ssp-buffer-size=1
1669 2011-10-16 23:15:24 <gmaxwell> what cjdelisle said.
1670 2011-10-16 23:15:30 <Diablo-D3> ahh, hidden knob
1671 2011-10-16 23:15:46 <Diablo-D3> thats counterproductive a tad
1672 2011-10-16 23:15:53 <gmaxwell> It's in the gcc man page (thats where I found it), not very hidden. ;)
1673 2011-10-16 23:15:58 <gmaxwell>            ssp-buffer-size
1674 2011-10-16 23:15:58 <gmaxwell>                The minimum size of buffers (i.e. arrays) that will receive stack smashing protection when -fstack-protection is used.
1675 2011-10-16 23:16:11 * Diablo-D3 shrugs.
1676 2011-10-16 23:16:15 <cjdelisle> I can't reproduce the warning on my debian box.
1677 2011-10-16 23:16:34 <Diablo-D3> [06:50:53] <BlueMatt> anyone want to track down, check, and then force g++ to ignore "warning: not protecting function: no buffer at least 8 bytes long"
1678 2011-10-16 23:16:35 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: debian? Try a gcc version from later than the 1970s.
1679 2011-10-16 23:16:42 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: what version?
1680 2011-10-16 23:16:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: are you nuts?
1681 2011-10-16 23:16:59 <Diablo-D3> debian currently ships newer than the newest 4.6
1682 2011-10-16 23:17:11 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: pretty much all software in debian is super old, at least in stable.
1683 2011-10-16 23:17:17 <Diablo-D3> no one uses stable
1684 2011-10-16 23:17:22 <Diablo-D3> stable means "unchanging" in debian
1685 2011-10-16 23:17:26 * cjdelisle does
1686 2011-10-16 23:17:34 <Diablo-D3> what everyone else calls stable debian calls testing
1687 2011-10-16 23:17:34 <gmaxwell> See.
1688 2011-10-16 23:17:39 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle is a liar.
1689 2011-10-16 23:17:51 <Diablo-D3> and since Ive used debian for over a decade, I can call him such
1690 2011-10-16 23:17:56 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1691 2011-10-16 23:18:01 <Diablo-D3> hell, Ive used debian unstable for over a decade
1692 2011-10-16 23:18:03 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle is a noob
1693 2011-10-16 23:18:04 <gmaxwell> Lots of people do.
1694 2011-10-16 23:18:13 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lots of people who dont rtfm, yes.
1695 2011-10-16 23:18:13 <cjdelisle> whatever though, stack-protector-all is not doing what it's supposed to.
1696 2011-10-16 23:18:20 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: gcc --version
1697 2011-10-16 23:18:31 * gmaxwell bets 4.3.2
1698 2011-10-16 23:18:34 <cjdelisle> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5
1699 2011-10-16 23:18:38 <Diablo-D3> wow, thats old shit
1700 2011-10-16 23:18:40 <Diablo-D3> upgrade already
1701 2011-10-16 23:19:29 <cjdelisle> does that have to do with stack-protector-all being overridden or are you just on a tangent?
1702 2011-10-16 23:19:46 <gmaxwell> In anycase, I'll stop faulting debian for shipping old shit when they ... stop shipping old shit.  You can insist people don't run it, but what I know is that I get lots of bug reports against old ass libtheora/libogg/libvorbis from debian users, and no bug reports against the current stuff from them.
1703 2011-10-16 23:19:48 <Diablo-D3> it means that theres probably a bug.
1704 2011-10-16 23:19:57 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: they dont.
1705 2011-10-16 23:20:02 <Diablo-D3> and they never did
1706 2011-10-16 23:20:15 <Diablo-D3> its largely a misconception that they ship out of date shit
1707 2011-10-16 23:20:23 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: they're shipping old shit as part of stable. Take that shit off the website if you don't want me saying they ship old shit.
1708 2011-10-16 23:20:38 <Diablo-D3> how about other distros stop lying that they ship a stable distro
1709 2011-10-16 23:20:49 <gmaxwell> Until that happens people will continue to install stable, and they'll continue to bother me with bugs in software that is 5 years out of date.
1710 2011-10-16 23:20:54 <Diablo-D3> redhat, ubuntu, etc etc "stable == debian testing.
1711 2011-10-16 23:21:01 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1712 2011-10-16 23:21:14 <Diablo-D3> and debian predates all of them, so the bug is in their distros, not debian
1713 2011-10-16 23:21:16 <gmaxwell> "stable" isn't useful when it means "so out of date no one will take your bug reports until you upgrade the relevant package"
1714 2011-10-16 23:21:31 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: stable has a very specific definition
1715 2011-10-16 23:21:35 <Diablo-D3> it means unchanging.
1716 2011-10-16 23:21:35 <cjdelisle> Now my guess is that ubuntu's hardened gcc is overriding the fstack-protector-all flag with fstack-protector.
1717 2011-10-16 23:21:52 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you don't need stable for that— you could just install an old version if thats what you want. ;)
1718 2011-10-16 23:22:00 <cjdelisle> since ubunt uses fstack-protector on everything
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1720 2011-10-16 23:22:06 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: thats .. weird.
1721 2011-10-16 23:22:08 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: not at all, they want a version that can comply with enterprise rules
1722 2011-10-16 23:22:18 <Diablo-D3> stable does so
1723 2011-10-16 23:22:22 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: if that's true then it indeed is.
1724 2011-10-16 23:22:33 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: redhat actually backports security fixes to their stable releases, debian not so much.
1725 2011-10-16 23:22:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yeah see? "backport" == unaudited code.
1726 2011-10-16 23:22:53 <cjdelisle> bb after holy war is over
1727 2011-10-16 23:23:06 <Diablo-D3> want to use debian normally? use testing or unstable.
1728 2011-10-16 23:23:10 <Diablo-D3> otherwise _I_ dont want to hear about it
1729 2011-10-16 23:23:15 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: If you want unchanging unfixed redhat you can always install an old version.
1730 2011-10-16 23:23:37 <Diablo-D3> Ive used Linux longer than everyone in this channel, I'm tired of people trying to fix a bug in OTHER distros by fixing it in debian.
1731 2011-10-16 23:23:46 <Diablo-D3> Thats not how bug triage works, and you know it.
1732 2011-10-16 23:24:11 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure you've not used linux much longer than me.
1733 2011-10-16 23:24:37 <gmaxwell> Considering that I've run it full time since the kernel got shared memory in ~.99
1734 2011-10-16 23:28:00 Xunie has joined
1735 2011-10-16 23:29:05 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: https://linuxcounter.net/user/12870.html  (though obviously I was using linux before the linux counter was created)
1736 2011-10-16 23:29:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: heh
1737 2011-10-16 23:30:05 <Diablo-D3> I didnt even know that site still existed
1738 2011-10-16 23:30:38 <gmaxwell> I only remembered it because they emailed me a month or so ago.
1739 2011-10-16 23:31:28 <Diablo-D3> crap, I need to know my user number
1740 2011-10-16 23:31:29 <Diablo-D3> heh
1741 2011-10-16 23:32:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you might have actually started using linux before me
1742 2011-10-16 23:32:14 <Diablo-D3> problem is, YOU KNOW BETTER THAN TO HAVE THIS ARGUMENT
1743 2011-10-16 23:32:18 <gmaxwell> hah
1744 2011-10-16 23:32:22 <gmaxwell> now— thats fair.
1745 2011-10-16 23:32:53 <gmaxwell> I only whine about debian because I'm tired of the useless bugreports from debian users, perhaps that isn't really debian's fault. ... but I also hold ubuntu accountable for their stupid users too.
1746 2011-10-16 23:33:17 <Diablo-D3> yes but
1747 2011-10-16 23:33:23 <Diablo-D3> you need to learn my way of doing it
1748 2011-10-16 23:33:38 <Diablo-D3> ignore bug reports unless they look interesting
1749 2011-10-16 23:34:01 chuck has quit (Excess Flood)
1750 2011-10-16 23:34:08 <gmaxwell> The ubuntu users are better, IMO. They might be dumber than a box of rocks, but at least they're reporting issues against current software. Gentoo users are the best becuase they reliably send patches. (which are often wrong, but a wrong patch is better than "It didn't work!")
1751 2011-10-16 23:34:13 <Diablo-D3> ubuntu users are WORSE
1752 2011-10-16 23:34:20 <Diablo-D3> their distro patches shit beyond belief
1753 2011-10-16 23:34:45 <gmaxwell> ah, well, they don't patch any of my stuff. I suppose my perspective would be different if they did.
1754 2011-10-16 23:34:57 <Diablo-D3> well, look at what they did to audacious
1755 2011-10-16 23:35:00 <Diablo-D3> its an unsuable pile of shit
1756 2011-10-16 23:35:02 <Diablo-D3> and they wont fix it
1757 2011-10-16 23:35:20 <Diablo-D3> nenolod has a blanket policy across all his projects now, reject all bugs from ubuntu users
1758 2011-10-16 23:36:26 chuck has joined
1759 2011-10-16 23:37:45 <cjdelisle> BlueMatt: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcc-4.5/+bug/691722 are you using a version which is affected by this bug?
1760 2011-10-16 23:38:37 <BlueMatt> whatever gcc is included in ubuntu lucid
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1762 2011-10-16 23:39:10 <cjdelisle> Lucid
1763 2011-10-16 23:39:10 <cjdelisle> Triaged
1764 2011-10-16 23:39:11 <cjdelisle> Medium Unassigned
1765 2011-10-16 23:39:19 <cjdelisle> looks like a yes
1766 2011-10-16 23:39:39 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1767 2011-10-16 23:39:50 <BlueMatt> alright, just wanted to make sure
1768 2011-10-16 23:40:10 <cjdelisle> sure thing, any other questions or issues re hardening be sure to highlight me
1769 2011-10-16 23:40:12 <gmaxwell> the@#$@ turning on all turns off the protector
1770 2011-10-16 23:40:54 <cjdelisle> hmm
1771 2011-10-16 23:41:15 <cjdelisle> the workaround -fno-stack-protector seems pretty good.
1772 2011-10-16 23:41:31 <cjdelisle> I can make a patch to implement the workaround if that sounds good to you guys
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1774 2011-10-16 23:42:53 <gmaxwell> Sounds reasonable enough to me.
1775 2011-10-16 23:42:58 <cjdelisle> I think that report is misleading
1776 2011-10-16 23:43:13 <gmaxwell> Is it just not doing all thus failing the test?
1777 2011-10-16 23:43:33 <cjdelisle> if it was removing all protection then we would have  warnings for every function.
1778 2011-10-16 23:44:12 <cjdelisle> the other problem with a workaround is we need to create an issue to remove it after the build environment is changed
1779 2011-10-16 23:44:53 <gmaxwell> well, it would be harmless to leave it there.
1780 2011-10-16 23:45:37 <gmaxwell> Just create a ticket to check the hardening settings again in a year or something. If we forget to remove it for a while it won't hurt.
1781 2011-10-16 23:45:40 <BlueMatt> well right now we effectively just have -fstack-protector on, does -fstack-protector-all really make that much of a difference...
1782 2011-10-16 23:46:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the difference is those things its warning about don't get the instrumentation. Which is probably not a big deal.
1783 2011-10-16 23:46:43 <BlueMatt> that is why I ask
1784 2011-10-16 23:46:55 <BlueMatt> is it really worth patching to fix this, when we could just leave it...
1785 2011-10-16 23:47:02 <cjdelisle> There are places where there are no buffers but data is streamed into local variables through serialize.h
1786 2011-10-16 23:47:36 <cjdelisle> Those will not be protected, I do not understand serialize.h so I can't speak to the level of risk.
1787 2011-10-16 23:47:44 <gmaxwell> The fix is painless in any case.
1788 2011-10-16 23:47:48 <BlueMatt> the only places I see are:
1789 2011-10-16 23:47:48 <BlueMatt> util.h: In constructor ‘CCriticalSection::CCriticalSection()’:
1790 2011-10-16 23:47:56 <BlueMatt> and db.cpp: In function ‘(static initializers for db.cpp)’:
1791 2011-10-16 23:48:22 <cjdelisle> I can double check those and see if anything looks amiss
1792 2011-10-16 23:48:49 <gmaxwell> meh, it's not worth auditing them... what happens when someone adds something else next week?
1793 2011-10-16 23:49:58 <cjdelisle> Are we going to be building 4.0.1 with natty?
1794 2011-10-16 23:50:08 <cjdelisle> or 4.1 or whatever comes next..
1795 2011-10-16 23:50:29 <cjdelisle> aka how many more releases before we start using natty?
1796 2011-10-16 23:50:39 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1797 2011-10-16 23:50:56 <BlueMatt> no
1798 2011-10-16 23:51:11 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: on this subject but OT for bitcoin, do you have any pointers to recommended autoconf blobs for dectecting and activating -fstack-protector ?
1799 2011-10-16 23:51:16 <BlueMatt> sticking with lucid until 2013+
1800 2011-10-16 23:51:35 <BlueMatt> (desktop extended support limit)
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1802 2011-10-16 23:52:09 <BlueMatt> or unless some other issue comes up
1803 2011-10-16 23:52:27 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: sadly I don't know anything about autotools, my project uses cmake and I just use stack-protector-all everywhere since it's pretty cheap.
1804 2011-10-16 23:52:48 <cjdelisle> + it's your last defense on an i386
1805 2011-10-16 23:53:12 <gmaxwell> Yea, well, it's not supported everywhere. (e.g. even gcc doesn't have it on all archs IIRC)
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1807 2011-10-16 23:54:03 <cjdelisle> indeed
1808 2011-10-16 23:54:32 <cjdelisle> I think on archs which don't support it, it does nothing in gcc land.
1809 2011-10-16 23:54:54 <cjdelisle> as far as msvcc or whatever I have not had the honer
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