1 2011-10-17 00:03:34 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: other than -fstack-protector what other interesting security measures are you aware of?   In an project of mine I've also eliminated all function pointers (not exactly an option in something c++ like bitcoin) and added canaries to my main structs.
   2 2011-10-17 00:04:54 <Diablo-D3> hey gm
   3 2011-10-17 00:04:56 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
   4 2011-10-17 00:05:01 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/LPQ4iFKQ
   5 2011-10-17 00:05:06 <Diablo-D3> is there a better way of doing that?
   6 2011-10-17 00:07:20 <cjdelisle> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/makefile.unix#L51
   7 2011-10-17 00:07:21 <gmaxwell> eh, well, dunno about better. There is a way to write that same test using only bitops which will avoid the compiler emitting a conditional move.
   8 2011-10-17 00:07:58 <cjdelisle> -fPIE and -pie is pretty good. it makes everything ASLR so even if you can corrupt a pointer you are still sunk as far as trying to make the code jump to the right place
   9 2011-10-17 00:08:15 <cjdelisle> *instruction pointer
  10 2011-10-17 00:08:18 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: yea, well, heh when you're building a shared library you already have that. :)
  11 2011-10-17 00:08:28 <cjdelisle> /nod
  12 2011-10-17 00:09:04 <cjdelisle> noexecstack is also good
  13 2011-10-17 00:09:19 <cjdelisle> it's default these days as long as you don't do something foolish like use nested functions.
  14 2011-10-17 00:09:37 <gmaxwell> I saw a neat demo where someone exploited the gnome desktop tumbnailing ... just put thousands of files on a usb stick that guess different offsets for libc's system... apparently ASLR didn't have enought entropy to prevent you from hitting it with a few thousand attempts.
  15 2011-10-17 00:09:53 <gmaxwell> go go trampolines.
  16 2011-10-17 00:09:54 <cjdelisle> indeed
  17 2011-10-17 00:10:01 <cjdelisle> /nod
  18 2011-10-17 00:10:07 <gmaxwell> It's too bad, the GCC nested functions were neat.
  19 2011-10-17 00:10:36 <Diablo-D3> [07:56:02] <cjdelisle> -fPIE and -pie
  20 2011-10-17 00:10:39 <Diablo-D3> mmmmm pie
  21 2011-10-17 00:10:42 <cjdelisle> they help if used right, oddly enough, the trampolines are only needed if it's called from outside of the containing function.
  22 2011-10-17 00:11:10 <gmaxwell> yea, the problem is that once you have the pointer to the nested function it can be used .. from other places.
  23 2011-10-17 00:11:32 <gmaxwell> C syntax doesn't really give you anything good to help manage the lifetime of that function pointer.
  24 2011-10-17 00:11:50 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: okay so
  25 2011-10-17 00:11:57 <Diablo-D3> how the hell do I write that
  26 2011-10-17 00:11:57 <cjdelisle> I use a ton of function pointers because you just can't do callbacks, modules and signaling without it.
  27 2011-10-17 00:12:03 <Diablo-D3> because Ive been sitting here thinking for the past hour
  28 2011-10-17 00:12:08 <Diablo-D3> and honestly I dont want that code in my shit
  29 2011-10-17 00:12:09 <Diablo-D3> its ugly
  30 2011-10-17 00:12:17 <gmaxwell> (and the coolest use for nested functions is e.g. calling qsort, stuff you'd do with STL sort in C++ I guess)
  31 2011-10-17 00:12:32 <Diablo-D3> I know the size of the buffer, where I can start reading, and where I can start writing
  32 2011-10-17 00:13:17 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: yea, avoiding function pointers isn't generally an option. In some code it is... and its nice when you can, because you'll never use data on the heap to adjust EIP, so thats a whole class of exploits gone.
  33 2011-10-17 00:13:17 <odysseus654> jeez i overslept, lol
  34 2011-10-17 00:13:29 <odysseus654> lotsa discussion in here, lol
  35 2011-10-17 00:13:30 <cjdelisle> I was using a few nested functions when I got started on my project but I was able to make them all into regular functions and just use pointers to them.
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  37 2011-10-17 00:13:41 <Diablo-D3> meh, hate function pointers
  38 2011-10-17 00:13:48 <Diablo-D3> too easy to get your ass in trouble
  39 2011-10-17 00:14:37 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: yes, though sometimes it's nicer if they have access to the enviroment of the invoking function.  In any case, I've never actually used them— Wished I could, but I always write portable code. :)
  40 2011-10-17 00:15:06 <odysseus654> after i'm coding in javascript for a while i come back to c++ and really miss that I can't just write a closure...
  41 2011-10-17 00:15:08 <cjdelisle> Yea, I have tons and tons of contexts to make that happen
  42 2011-10-17 00:15:25 theorb has joined
  43 2011-10-17 00:15:36 <cjdelisle> unlike java classes, structs are free and I use them like they are.
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  46 2011-10-17 00:16:11 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: Spent time doing serious coding in asm and you'll realize how everything else severely constrains your control flow.  Lack of closures in C is just the start.
  47 2011-10-17 00:16:30 <odysseus654> gmaxwell: asm?  assembly?
  48 2011-10-17 00:16:42 <Diablo-D3> hrm, I wonder if I could be a fucking dick and start calculating shit in bytes
  49 2011-10-17 00:16:52 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: yea.
  50 2011-10-17 00:17:11 <odysseus654> gmaxwell: don't closures require a garbage collector?  how the heck to i code a garbage collector in asm?
  51 2011-10-17 00:17:22 <gmaxwell> "stack? huh? thats just another register"
  52 2011-10-17 00:17:35 <Diablo-D3> odysseus654: "very carefully"
  53 2011-10-17 00:17:53 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: you can write one, of course, but you can also write code that doesn't need one because you understand all its terminating conditions so you can write optimal cleanup code.
  54 2011-10-17 00:18:01 <odysseus654> i do get annoyed at these minidumps that never let you look at "this" because the compiler decided to shove the stack frame pointer in the wrong register...
  55 2011-10-17 00:18:01 <cjdelisle> start calculating shit in bytes <-- end up with stuff that works brilliently until you get a bug, then you need to get really stoned before it's going to make any sense at all
  56 2011-10-17 00:18:50 <gmaxwell> also— ... its too slow now adays, but self modifying code was the bomb.
  57 2011-10-17 00:19:00 <odysseus654> gmaxwell: oh jeez, not one of those "i understand the program perfectly, therefore there will be no bugs".  We fired that guy after he wouldn't let anyone look at or touch his code, i ended up having to rewrite nearly every line in the thing.  and yes there were bugs.
  58 2011-10-17 00:19:02 <Diablo-D3> cjdelisle: not really, it just means my numbers are 4 times larger.
  59 2011-10-17 00:19:11 <cjdelisle> ahh nice
  60 2011-10-17 00:19:15 <cjdelisle> 32 bit only
  61 2011-10-17 00:19:32 <cjdelisle> amd64 is for losers
  62 2011-10-17 00:19:42 <Diablo-D3> um, cjdelisle, you fail at coding
  63 2011-10-17 00:19:47 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: ha. Well, it's approiate in the _right_ contexts. I don't work on anything like that these days, so I don't write any asm.  But I still do miss the control.
  64 2011-10-17 00:19:49 <Diablo-D3> floats dont magically get bigger.
  65 2011-10-17 00:20:05 <Diablo-D3> and by four times bigger, yes, I do mean sizeof(float) times bigger.
  66 2011-10-17 00:20:12 <cjdelisle> gotchya
  67 2011-10-17 00:20:30 <odysseus654> i remember a language that was floating around while i was in college named "C--" ...
  68 2011-10-17 00:20:46 <Diablo-D3> odysseus654: you just outed yourself as a noob
  69 2011-10-17 00:21:09 <odysseus654> i'm sure there's a lot of things i can say that can do that.  after a while the trick is not to care
  70 2011-10-17 00:21:27 <gmaxwell> And of course, you can prove software to be bug free— so long as it's small and isolated enough. Which is, of course, why making ASICs is a viable business, cause you're sure as hell not going to spend a million bucks on a mask run unless you're damn sure its right. :)
  71 2011-10-17 00:21:29 <Diablo-D3> c-- didnt become "popular" until like 5-10 years ago.
  72 2011-10-17 00:21:44 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: :D
  73 2011-10-17 00:21:51 <odysseus654> i graduated more than 10 years ago, it got popular?
  74 2011-10-17 00:21:52 <Diablo-D3> well, they have that one mathematically verifiable language
  75 2011-10-17 00:22:02 <Diablo-D3> odysseus654: popular == mentioned on slashdot a few times
  76 2011-10-17 00:22:09 <odysseus654> *rolls eyes*
  77 2011-10-17 00:22:33 <gmaxwell> Well, they're all mathically verifiable.. some are just easier than others.  :)
  78 2011-10-17 00:22:48 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hurr
  79 2011-10-17 00:22:52 <gmaxwell> http://frama-c.com/  < is excellent.
  80 2011-10-17 00:23:38 <odysseus654> i thought i remembered running something like bitcoin like 5 years ago too, ran the miner for a week, nothing happened, moved on.  it was much earlier than the 2yr genesis block though, so i'm not sure where to file that memroy
  81 2011-10-17 00:23:42 <doublec> ooh, frama-c looks nice
  82 2011-10-17 00:24:05 <Diablo-D3> odysseus654: drug use?
  83 2011-10-17 00:24:11 <odysseus654> LOL
  84 2011-10-17 00:24:21 <odysseus654> i mean, there was nothing before bitcoin, right?
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  86 2011-10-17 00:24:45 <Diablo-D3> yes, god invented the heavens and the earth and bitcoin and then adam and eve.
  87 2011-10-17 00:24:53 <rjk2> hahahaha
  88 2011-10-17 00:25:38 <Diablo-D3> and on the seventh day, he mined.
  89 2011-10-17 00:25:39 <gmaxwell> Also, http://why3.lri.fr/  why is useful too, though frama-c is gradually replacing its functionality internally.
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  91 2011-10-17 00:26:39 <odysseus654> Diablo-D3: careful, in the wrong context what follows after "he mined" is "he lit a fire block and accidentally burned the whole earth down"
  92 2011-10-17 00:27:17 <Diablo-D3> no, but now I think I know how he flooded the place >_>
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  94 2011-10-17 00:37:03 <odysseus654> gmaxwell: (i think it's you), just an fyi from earlier: memchek86, 12hrs, something like 16 rounds, no easter eggs found
  95 2011-10-17 00:38:03 <rjk2> failing disk drives do all sorts of funny stuff with data
  96 2011-10-17 00:39:08 <odysseus654> yah i know, just about every time we turned my wife's laptop into the repair shop to fix a random blue screen it would come back with all her data erased and the diagnosis "drive failure".  got rather annoying
  97 2011-10-17 00:39:46 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: aww, well you figured out bdb5 was the root of your pain though, right?
  98 2011-10-17 00:40:10 <odysseus654> no, i got confused reading random release notes out of order and thought tip was using BDB5, it isn't.
  99 2011-10-17 00:40:29 <gmaxwell> ah, if you'd asked that I would have told you no.
 100 2011-10-17 00:41:14 <odysseus654> yesterday was rather scattered trying to search files for where i read stuff, lol.  i know that tip won't launch on my current wallet though, it abort()s inside of BDB.  prob need to recompile it so i can debug into it and see why
 101 2011-10-17 00:41:58 <odysseus654> at this point though the official client is currently running and seems to be happy
 102 2011-10-17 00:42:34 <odysseus654> ...and discovered 4 new payments to me in the last hour.  money is always good :-)
 103 2011-10-17 00:45:37 <cjdelisle> BlueMatt: gmaxwell https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/586
 104 2011-10-17 00:48:37 <odysseus654> if it means anything, attempting to compile bitcoinQT with VC2k8 results in " invalid numeric argument '/Wno-invalid-offsetof' "
 105 2011-10-17 00:49:26 <cjdelisle> odysseus654: that's microsoft c++?
 106 2011-10-17 00:50:17 <odysseus654> i think so, yes
 107 2011-10-17 00:50:30 <odysseus654> i installed express edition on this machine with the 64bit extensions
 108 2011-10-17 00:51:40 <cjdelisle> yeap, that's a gcc only flag
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 110 2011-10-17 00:52:27 <gmaxwell> odysseus654: I'd caution against compiling bitcoin with anything but gcc. I don't believe it's been widely tested on MSVC. (someone could correct me, however)
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 112 2011-10-17 00:52:48 <cjdelisle> ^ +1
 113 2011-10-17 00:52:48 <odysseus654> kinda figured, if it's a "don't care" then it can be dropped, but the recent focus on "-fstack-protector-all cannot be ignored" reminds me that not all compiler settings are ignorable
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 115 2011-10-17 00:53:21 <odysseus654> hey, this is tip, I don't expect *anything* that I do is widely tested.  I'm just lucky that I randomly selected both profiles when installing that Nokia Development Platform or whatever
 116 2011-10-17 00:53:53 <cjdelisle> the current methodology is to use a different makefile for each platform so if you want to maintain one for msvc++ then that's an option
 117 2011-10-17 00:54:31 <cjdelisle> I like cmake but unfortunately that's +1 thing to install, I don't know the first thing about autotools except it's big.
 118 2011-10-17 00:54:38 <odysseus654> i know enough about PRO files to realize that I don't know much about PRO files.  I did have to add a line at the end of the file to get it to compile under MINGW btw
 119 2011-10-17 00:54:58 <gmaxwell> It would probably be useful to have a MSVC make just to do periodic builds to get the warnings and static analysis results there.
 120 2011-10-17 00:57:35 <cjdelisle> I understand MSVC is also a pretty clever compiler from a security and optimization standpoint so I would be interested in it if I was developing for windows.
 121 2011-10-17 00:59:01 <odysseus654> unfortunately for QT i'm guessing we have to use their make system, so this would be patches to the file?
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 123 2011-10-17 00:59:44 <odysseus654> if anyone is interested, I had to add a "windows:LIBS += -lgdi32" line at the end of the PRO file
 124 2011-10-17 01:00:02 <odysseus654> yes the same lib is listed a few lines up, but there's a dependancy between its current position and the end of the file
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 126 2011-10-17 01:00:16 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: it's static analysis is pretty good. - well, it whines about some stupid things but it also finds some interesting things.
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 129 2011-10-17 01:15:14 <luke-jr> odysseus654: no, plenty of Qt apps don't use qmake
 130 2011-10-17 01:15:25 <luke-jr> KDE 3 used autoconf/make; KDE 4 uses cmake
 131 2011-10-17 01:15:39 <luke-jr> I prefer autoconf the most
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 160 2011-10-17 02:25:01 <theymos> I don't see where there is an off-by-1 problem with difficulty adjustments. I see adjustments over 145152-147167 and 147168-149183 inclusive. These ranges are 2015 blocks in size, but there isn't a block left out of the range.
 161 2011-10-17 02:26:24 <gmaxwell> theymos: ... yea it's an off by one.
 162 2011-10-17 02:26:40 <theymos> Which block is being left out?
 163 2011-10-17 02:26:44 <gmaxwell> theymos: consider. You lie in 147167 and say it happened two hours late.
 164 2011-10-17 02:27:03 <theymos> 147167 is included in the calculation as far as I can tell.
 165 2011-10-17 02:27:07 <gmaxwell> Then the 147168-149183 doesn't compensate for the difficulty offset that created.
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 168 2011-10-17 02:28:43 <gmaxwell> So, say you split the chain at the point it was three weeks ago. At the end of the first difficulty window you say the block happened now+2hr (three weeks after when it properly should have). You'll end up with 1/4 the difficulty being computed for the next cycle.
 169 2011-10-17 02:29:29 <gmaxwell> And you never have to _pay_ for the fudged timestamp because the one after the window will be correctly timed (the minimum uses the median of 11, so you never get forced to use a future time anywhere else)
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 171 2011-10-17 02:31:05 <gmaxwell> theymos: did I make that make sense?
 172 2011-10-17 02:31:44 <gmaxwell> instead of thinking about what blocks are included in the calculation, think about what GAPS are included, and you'll see we're leaving out a gap.
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 174 2011-10-17 02:37:14 <odysseus654> i'm guessing that with something like bitcoin it really isn't that easy to change this kind of rule...
 175 2011-10-17 02:38:03 <theymos> gmaxwell: I see how that is an attack. What is it that's "off by one", though?
 176 2011-10-17 02:39:02 <gmaxwell> theymos: if the lower bound went one lower it would capture the gap which is being missed.  I don't really know if it was a coding off by one— or just a design flaw though. I can't see into the developer's mind. ;)
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 181 2011-10-17 02:42:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r09f6736ab00b cgminer/main.c: Style cleanups.
 182 2011-10-17 02:42:10 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r6d004ddfadc1 cgminer/main.c: Write unix configuration to .cgminer/cgminer.conf by default and prompt to overwrite if given a filename from the menu that exists.
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 185 2011-10-17 02:44:50 <theymos> If the lower edge went one lower, wouldn't the broken time value just make the next retarget off as well? The time value would still be wrong.
 186 2011-10-17 02:46:55 <gmaxwell> It would make it off in the opposite direction.
 187 2011-10-17 02:47:00 <gmaxwell> So the average of the two is correct.
 188 2011-10-17 02:47:07 <gmaxwell> And you gain nothing much from your little game.
 189 2011-10-17 02:47:54 <gmaxwell> As it is now you can do this over and over again and get whatever difficulty you want without driving the timestamps into the far future.
 190 2011-10-17 02:48:14 <theymos> OK, thanks for explaining it. Looks like all 2016 blocks should have their time data used in the difficulty calculation.
 191 2011-10-17 02:48:36 <gmaxwell> So I can fork the chain, mine it down to difficulty one, and if I have >50% mine the ever lasting shit out of it until my sum diff beats the network ... release it and cause a big split and massive inflation.
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 195 2011-10-17 03:12:11 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r9a0b7096230e cgminer/ (README example-cfg.json example.conf main.c): Update documentation about new configuration file with an example file.
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 200 2011-10-17 03:22:18 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r2a19153d90db cgminer/Makefile.am: Add example.conf to makefile dist.
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 206 2011-10-17 03:42:13 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r2ac11bd7d6c6 cgminer/NEWS: Update NEWS.
 207 2011-10-17 03:42:14 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r1acdad89ab6d cgminer/configure.ac: Bump version number to 2.0.7.
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 322 2011-10-17 09:10:36 <ThomasV> who's running blockchain.info ? why is it down ?
 323 2011-10-17 09:12:13 <upb> because the coin is dieing
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 329 2011-10-17 09:14:30 <ThomasV> dieing? like in a diet ?
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 332 2011-10-17 09:18:34 <erus`> bitcoin is over :(
 333 2011-10-17 09:18:51 <Ycros> love is over
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 335 2011-10-17 09:19:47 <erus`> pack it up guys, lets go home
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 340 2011-10-17 09:27:51 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 341 2011-10-17 09:31:24 <noagendamarket> pretty much
 342 2011-10-17 09:31:36 <Blitzboom> hahah
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 348 2011-10-17 09:50:49 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
 349 2011-10-17 09:50:50 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":3.8975,"low":2.77002,"avg":3.418140592,"vwap":3.376363487,"vol":104634,"last_all":2.91,"last_local":2.91,"last":2.91,"buy":2.91,"sell":2.93358}}
 350 2011-10-17 09:57:52 <ThomasV> interactive graph of bitcoins moving over time: http://ecdsa.org/stats.html
 351 2011-10-17 09:57:55 iocor has joined
 352 2011-10-17 09:58:40 <ThomasV> let me know it it's too slow to download
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 363 2011-10-17 10:21:31 <Eliel> ThomasV: would be nice to have some explanation on what the different colors represent. I guess the green is the number of coins moved per block but I have no idea what the bluishgreen color represents.
 364 2011-10-17 10:22:15 <ThomasV> Eliel: see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q3UtmhR9G8
 365 2011-10-17 10:23:01 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, This Websense category is filtered: Potentially Damaging Content.
 366 2011-10-17 10:23:30 <ThomasV> UukGoblin: which one?
 367 2011-10-17 10:24:05 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, http://ecdsa.org/stats.html
 368 2011-10-17 10:24:18 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, don't worry, I think the bastards block all domains they haven't seen before
 369 2011-10-17 10:24:43 <ThomasV> UukGoblin: why are you using them?
 370 2011-10-17 10:24:50 <UukGoblin> ThomasV, I'm not, my company is
 371 2011-10-17 10:25:02 <UukGoblin> (I'm in an office)
 372 2011-10-17 10:26:02 <Eliel> ThomasV: ah, this is a great graph, just add some explanation to go with it on the page and it's perfect :)
 373 2011-10-17 10:26:21 <Eliel> interesting how the early adopter coins from 2009 have barely moved at all
 374 2011-10-17 10:27:04 <ThomasV> I am creating a blog entry with an explanation
 375 2011-10-17 10:28:01 <UukGoblin> satoshi wanting to stay anonymous?
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 389 2011-10-17 10:54:28 <Eliel> ThomasV: one suggestion for the visualization. Could you modify the graph to be logarithmic? that way, even the big spikes would fit into the graph.
 390 2011-10-17 10:54:48 <ThomasV> Eliel: yes, I thought about that.
 391 2011-10-17 10:55:09 <ThomasV> otoh, we should expect it to become less and less spiky over time
 392 2011-10-17 10:55:26 <Eliel> another idea I had was to leak the too big spikes into the surrounding days but that might not work too well.
 393 2011-10-17 10:55:29 <ThomasV> (in a few years :-)
 394 2011-10-17 10:55:55 <ThomasV> well, it's possible to use larger time bins
 395 2011-10-17 10:56:05 <ThomasV> that's the case in the video
 396 2011-10-17 10:57:07 <Eliel> yes, daily accuracy is perhaps a bit too much :)
 397 2011-10-17 10:57:38 <Eliel> at least if you want to show the whole 2 and half years in the graph.
 398 2011-10-17 10:57:50 <ThomasV> but it would not remove all the spikes
 399 2011-10-17 10:58:08 <Eliel> just reducing them is good enough :)
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 401 2011-10-17 11:00:42 <ThomasV> the problem with a logscale is that it does not make sense;  all coins are equal
 402 2011-10-17 11:01:22 <Eliel> maybe you could give users options on how to show the data? a few widgets on the side or below.
 403 2011-10-17 11:01:57 <ThomasV> heh, these are pngs, but sure we could do that
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 405 2011-10-17 11:11:09 <Eliel> oh, pngs :D I didn't notice at all :)
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 455 2011-10-17 13:25:37 <AlexWaters> anyone know of any updates on the binaries that Matt and Wladimir are working on?
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 458 2011-10-17 13:31:39 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters: I haven't heard...
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 463 2011-10-17 13:39:49 <_side>   Hello people, can anyone help me? I've installed pushpool on my test server, and run client. And every time the client send getwork, server answer a different data-block. BC-wiki says that new block generates every 10-15 minutes, but even if I send "getwork" every second I got different data-block. Please explain me this situation..
 464 2011-10-17 13:40:43 <AlexWaters> Luke built some here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=47586.msg573675#msg573675 - anyone know how he did it so that we can have Jenkins churn .exes out?
 465 2011-10-17 13:41:03 <mologie> _side: I am not very familiar with how bitcoin works, but what I can certainly tell you is that work is not related to the current block
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 467 2011-10-17 13:41:29 <gavinandresen> _side: yes, every miner works on a slightly different variation of a block, so they don't duplicate work
 468 2011-10-17 13:41:30 <mologie> It is normal that you get a different result each time you query the server.
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 472 2011-10-17 13:44:24 <_side> hmm, it looks total different, but first bytes is the same, looks like header
 473 2011-10-17 13:46:39 <_side> I thought that all clients got same block and hash it with different nonces..
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 480 2011-10-17 13:52:00 <sipa> _side: the generation transaction (which pays to yourself) is different for everyone, and contains a nonce as well, and this influences the maerkle root (which forms a significant part of the block header)
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 484 2011-10-17 14:01:16 <_side> don't completely understand) will try to find some documentation of this
 485 2011-10-17 14:03:22 <_side> "the generation transaction" is the block which pool's client got, or something more?
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 488 2011-10-17 14:09:03 <sipa> a transaction is not a block
 489 2011-10-17 14:09:13 <sipa> a block is a collection of transactions
 490 2011-10-17 14:11:01 <_side> %)
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 492 2011-10-17 14:11:56 <_side> when my minig clent got block from pool, it contain more than one transaction?
 493 2011-10-17 14:13:03 <UukGoblin> _side, each block has a generation transaction (the one that pays out the 50 BTC bounty) and user transactions.
 494 2011-10-17 14:13:34 <UukGoblin> _side, "normal" blocks pay this 50 BTC to a single address. With pools like eligius, they instead pay it out proportionally (per share, actually) to multiple addresses.
 495 2011-10-17 14:15:22 <_side> Understand this, thanks) But I can't understand why pool send any client different data and midstate, how this help to distribute work between clients ?
 496 2011-10-17 14:16:55 <sipa> _side: miners try to find blocks whose hash is low enough, but they all try different combinations
 497 2011-10-17 14:17:08 <sipa> if you request new work, you get a new combination
 498 2011-10-17 14:17:24 <sipa> such that you can give it to someone else, and be sure no one tries to search the same range
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 501 2011-10-17 14:22:05 <_side> different combination of what? I thought basically pool has a block like 12345 0000 6789, and all clients try to hash 12345 0010 6789, to find hash that lower thaт target. But I see that client got totally different data, that  not begins from 12345
 502 2011-10-17 14:22:57 <_side> or nonce is greater than one dword ?
 503 2011-10-17 14:23:50 <UukGoblin> _side, only some of the block is dictated by the network. The rest (like the generation transaction) are up to the pool operator. There's some random data that can be modified
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 505 2011-10-17 14:26:00 <sipa> the generation transaction can contain up to 800 bits of nonce data
 506 2011-10-17 14:27:30 <_side> this is the key)) When I write simple miner, I see that in pool nonce is 1 dword
 507 2011-10-17 14:27:59 <sipa> yes, the block hash is 32 bits
 508 2011-10-17 14:28:21 <sipa> but the most important field of the block hash is the 256-bit merkle root
 509 2011-10-17 14:28:35 <sipa> this merkle root is calculated from the transaction hashes
 510 2011-10-17 14:29:16 <sipa> and the first transaction is the generation (it's a special transaction, used to introduce new coins into circulation, and forms the basis for mining income - together with fees)
 511 2011-10-17 14:29:29 <sipa> this generation transaction itself has another nonce, of up to 800 bits
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 516 2011-10-17 14:35:06 <_side> thak you, and all other =)
 517 2011-10-17 14:36:28 <_side> where does you know it all from ? from en.bitcoin.it/wiki/  or another full specification?)
 518 2011-10-17 14:36:45 <UukGoblin> wiki, source code, IRC
 519 2011-10-17 14:36:47 <UukGoblin> ;-]
 520 2011-10-17 14:37:24 <_side> thanx =)
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 530 2011-10-17 15:03:45 <gavinandresen> Anybody know how small an ECDSA signature can possibly be?
 531 2011-10-17 15:03:54 <gavinandresen> (number of bytes)
 532 2011-10-17 15:05:13 <luke-jr> compact is 65
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 537 2011-10-17 15:14:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: 2*N bits for N-bit EC
 538 2011-10-17 15:14:53 <sipa> so 64 bytes for secp256k1; the compact format adds one byte for the 2 hint bits
 539 2011-10-17 15:15:12 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks.
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 556 2011-10-17 15:40:35 <terrytibbs> sipa: What do you use to generate the graphs at bitcoin.sipa.be?
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 558 2011-10-17 15:40:56 <sipa> terrytibbs: gnuplot
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 561 2011-10-17 15:41:40 <terrytibbs> I knew they looked familiar!
 562 2011-10-17 15:41:41 <terrytibbs> Thanks
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 570 2011-10-17 15:51:28 <ThomasV> is john tobey sometimes on this channel ?
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 576 2011-10-17 16:07:01 <Ukto> hmm
 577 2011-10-17 16:07:10 <Ukto> wish there was a checkaddress command
 578 2011-10-17 16:07:16 <Ukto> that would simply return if the address is local within the wallet
 579 2011-10-17 16:07:17 <Ukto> or not
 580 2011-10-17 16:07:32 <gavinandresen> Ukto: validateaddress
 581 2011-10-17 16:07:41 <BlueMatt> ismine isnt it?
 582 2011-10-17 16:07:44 <gavinandresen> yup
 583 2011-10-17 16:08:03 <Ukto> hm
 584 2011-10-17 16:08:08 <Ukto> really, did i really miss that
 585 2011-10-17 16:08:12 <Ukto> i know i had seen that command before
 586 2011-10-17 16:08:21 <Ukto> mebbe it just wasnt listing in the help command :/
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 590 2011-10-17 16:09:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: doc/build-*.txt and doc/readme-qt.rst have become the same file with duplicate and (sometimes) conflicting info...
 591 2011-10-17 16:09:58 <Ukto> wow, im bad.
 592 2011-10-17 16:09:59 <Ukto> thanks
 593 2011-10-17 16:11:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yup... if I knew anything about building on windows or all the different flavors of linux I'd suggest fixes.
 594 2011-10-17 16:12:25 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 595 2011-10-17 16:12:25 <luke-jr> so who here is buying the BFLab thing?
 596 2011-10-17 16:12:51 <gavinandresen> B-flab ?  is that some kind of "equal rights for fat people" organization?
 597 2011-10-17 16:12:58 MC1984 has joined
 598 2011-10-17 16:12:58 <luke-jr> …
 599 2011-10-17 16:12:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: heh, thats true...anyway someone needs to do it eventually...
 600 2011-10-17 16:13:08 <luke-jr> no, they have 1 GH/s at 20 W for $500 preorder
 601 2011-10-17 16:13:16 <BlueMatt> wtf?
 602 2011-10-17 16:13:17 <luke-jr> FPGA
 603 2011-10-17 16:13:20 <BlueMatt> mmm
 604 2011-10-17 16:13:28 <sipa> nice
 605 2011-10-17 16:13:43 <luke-jr> I figure it breaks even at least $2 under everyone else
 606 2011-10-17 16:13:49 <luke-jr> so it should pay for itself in a year
 607 2011-10-17 16:13:51 <gavinandresen> I still want an FPGA space heater for my office.
 608 2011-10-17 16:13:58 <BlueMatt> link?
 609 2011-10-17 16:14:02 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: well, apparently these are low-heat :p
 610 2011-10-17 16:14:11 <copumpkin> that's why you need a thousand of them
 611 2011-10-17 16:14:14 <copumpkin> then you get nice heat
 612 2011-10-17 16:14:19 <luke-jr> lol
 613 2011-10-17 16:14:24 <luke-jr> only 100 available for preorder ;)
 614 2011-10-17 16:14:24 <copumpkin> most expensive space heater evar
 615 2011-10-17 16:14:37 <luke-jr> copumpkin: or profitable, once it breaks evne
 616 2011-10-17 16:14:40 <gavinandresen> not if it'll pay for itself...  I don't want to do no soldering, though
 617 2011-10-17 16:14:43 <copumpkin> well, I guess the LHC could be considered a space heater
 618 2011-10-17 16:14:54 <copumpkin> so maybe not the most expensive one
 619 2011-10-17 16:15:04 <gmaxwell> Well, the butterfly laps people are claiming they plan to do a 54GH box... based on their numbers it should put out a kw of heat.. should keep your feet nice and tosty.
 620 2011-10-17 16:15:11 <BlueMatt> heh, best space heater ever -> the LHC
 621 2011-10-17 16:15:22 <luke-jr> http://butterflylabs.com/product-details/
 622 2011-10-17 16:16:33 <rjk2> hm that looks cool for 1 gh/s
 623 2011-10-17 16:16:44 <rjk2> ill have to seriously consider it
 624 2011-10-17 16:16:44 <gmaxwell> It would be nice if some well known bitcoiner unrelated to them would pay them a visit and tell everyone else if it looks real.
 625 2011-10-17 16:17:08 <rjk2> gmaxwell: yes
 626 2011-10-17 16:17:38 <rjk2> but for $500, i can sell my existing rig and profit right away
 627 2011-10-17 16:17:53 <rjk2> cause i only am making about 1.2 gh/s right now
 628 2011-10-17 16:17:57 * luke-jr notes all 100 preorders are "claimed" but not final/paid
 629 2011-10-17 16:18:10 <luke-jr> also, they said they'll probably make an announcement this week
 630 2011-10-17 16:18:23 <copumpkin> do they have a physical location?
 631 2011-10-17 16:18:28 terrytibbsASDF has joined
 632 2011-10-17 16:18:38 <luke-jr> copumpkin: they said I was welcome to pick up mine at their offices in Kansas City
 633 2011-10-17 16:18:42 <copumpkin> hah
 634 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <gavinandresen> http://butterflylabs.com/contact/
 635 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <rjk2> Address: 25E 12th Street
 636 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <rjk2> Kansas City, Missouri 64106
 637 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <rjk2> United States of America
 638 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <rjk2> Phone: 816 226 6966
 639 2011-10-17 16:18:46 <rjk2> Fax: 816 226 6966
 640 2011-10-17 16:18:48 <copumpkin> okay, I won't be visiting anytime soon
 641 2011-10-17 16:18:58 <copumpkin> unless a tornado comes along
 642 2011-10-17 16:19:02 <copumpkin> and blows me to kansas
 643 2011-10-17 16:19:09 <Ukto> theres no place like home...
 644 2011-10-17 16:19:10 <luke-jr> I know lots of people in KC
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 647 2011-10-17 16:21:05 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: then send someone to check it out.
 648 2011-10-17 16:21:05 <Ukto> wonder how well scrypt would run on it :P
 649 2011-10-17 16:21:36 <gmaxwell> Ukto: depends on how much memory you're using with scrypt.
 650 2011-10-17 16:21:48 <luke-jr> Ukto: I've decided scrypt is a bad idea
 651 2011-10-17 16:22:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: werent you one of the people heavily pushing scrypt for bitcoin wallet encryption?
 652 2011-10-17 16:22:20 <luke-jr> BlueMattno
 653 2011-10-17 16:22:30 <luke-jr> I might also be confusing scrypt with something else
 654 2011-10-17 16:22:43 <luke-jr> isn't it the hash algo used for tenebrix and those other "CPU mining only" scamcoins?
 655 2011-10-17 16:22:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I was. And it would be a good thing for that.
 656 2011-10-17 16:22:47 <BlueMatt> memory-heavy hashing algo...
 657 2011-10-17 16:23:01 <gmaxwell> But yes, I've long said it was a bad idea for hash chain POW.
 658 2011-10-17 16:23:16 <sipa> scrypt for POW = botnets
 659 2011-10-17 16:23:21 <gmaxwell> 'cause it just means handing over the chain to the biggest botnet— hardly an improvement.
 660 2011-10-17 16:23:22 <copumpkin> prisoner of war proof of work
 661 2011-10-17 16:23:36 <copumpkin> I prove my work by waging wars and acquiring prisoners
 662 2011-10-17 16:23:38 <copumpkin> POW^2
 663 2011-10-17 16:23:48 <luke-jr> sipa: botnets are inevitable
 664 2011-10-17 16:23:58 <luke-jr> but CPU-only merely raises the cost to mass-mine
 665 2011-10-17 16:24:01 <copumpkin> and on that deeply intellectual assertion, I shall retire from this conversation
 666 2011-10-17 16:24:06 <sipa> sure, but botnets on GPUs are harder than on CPUs
 667 2011-10-17 16:24:07 <luke-jr> right now, at least GPUs are commodity hardware
 668 2011-10-17 16:24:21 <gmaxwell> Sure, but we don't need to hand 90% control to the botnets.
 669 2011-10-17 16:24:41 <sipa> and it is an advantage (at least regarding keeping botnets at bay) to use a system were specialized hardware has a significant advantage over commodity hardware
 670 2011-10-17 16:24:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well theres room in the implementation, go write it ;)
 671 2011-10-17 16:24:49 <luke-jr> regular people can buy GPUs; not so much 256-core CPUs
 672 2011-10-17 16:24:59 <BlueMatt> arg installing wine+mingw takes forever...
 673 2011-10-17 16:25:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea... fair enough, I was waiting for it to mature.
 674 2011-10-17 16:25:23 <BlueMatt> as was I
 675 2011-10-17 16:26:24 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 676 2011-10-17 16:26:45 <BlueMatt> and since I dont pay attention to the latest news in the crypto world I will probably never realize it has matured enough...
 677 2011-10-17 16:27:05 <gmaxwell> ha, well, what I was waiting for was _wallet crypto_ to mature. :)
 678 2011-10-17 16:27:15 <BlueMatt> heh
 679 2011-10-17 16:27:44 <BlueMatt> fair enough, as I said I dont pay enough attention to the world of cryto ;)
 680 2011-10-17 16:27:53 * BlueMatt needs to take crypto 101...
 681 2011-10-17 16:27:54 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: someone trying to outpace bitcoin using asics still needs a fair number of them, because the GPUs are pretty good competition.  Scrypt is gate hungry, but the good miners don't have anything better than desktop cpus.
 682 2011-10-17 16:28:31 <BlueMatt> anyway, intro to compsci lecture is done so Im getting off :)
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 687 2011-10-17 16:30:28 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that's my point
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 690 2011-10-17 16:31:51 <gavinandresen> Looking for feedback on some op_eval/multisig stuff I've been experimenting with:  https://gist.github.com/e7041fe221b4e5f08c3f
 691 2011-10-17 16:32:19 <gavinandresen> (thinking through RPC calls to support the use cases I/we care about)
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 695 2011-10-17 16:36:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the funniest thing about Tenebrix is that their scrypt size is only 128k... which is large enough to blow up any currently available GPU but wouldn't actually be too horiffic for a asic implementation. Only something like 11x the gate count of a bitcoin miner.
 696 2011-10-17 16:37:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: that implies an address-based keystore?
 697 2011-10-17 16:38:09 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I implemented it as additional keystore methods:  AddCScript()/etc
 698 2011-10-17 16:38:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/blob/op_eval/src/keystore.h
 699 2011-10-17 16:39:01 <sipa> and how do you store it in the wallet?
 700 2011-10-17 16:39:05 da2ce7 has joined
 701 2011-10-17 16:39:20 <gavinandresen> sipa:  new "cscript"<hash> key
 702 2011-10-17 16:39:46 <gavinandresen> (value is serialized CScript)
 703 2011-10-17 16:40:24 <gavinandresen> ... which brings up the issue of wallet backups, since there is no multisig-address-keypool
 704 2011-10-17 16:40:26 <sipa> i wonder if we can't move to a generic (xkey + version byte + address hash) -> (different types of data) entry in wallet
 705 2011-10-17 16:40:55 <cuqa> hello
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 707 2011-10-17 16:40:59 <sipa> since all lookups are based on address, but they're stored by pubkey/cscript in the wallet
 708 2011-10-17 16:41:01 <cuqa> can someone explain me how MM works?
 709 2011-10-17 16:41:22 <sipa> cuqa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7219.0
 710 2011-10-17 16:41:22 <gavinandresen> M&M's are little multicolored candies with chocolate inside
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 712 2011-10-17 16:41:38 <gavinandresen> You eat them.
 713 2011-10-17 16:41:38 <cuqa> nono I mean Merged Mining
 714 2011-10-17 16:41:44 <gavinandresen> Oh....
 715 2011-10-17 16:41:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: such an address-based key would also allow "watched" addresses for example
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 717 2011-10-17 16:43:00 <gavinandresen> sipa: bigger changes than I want to tackle right now...
 718 2011-10-17 16:43:15 <gavinandresen> (the whole op_eval and new bitcoin address are plenty big enough)
 719 2011-10-17 16:43:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's quite independent from it
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 721 2011-10-17 16:43:59 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yes, that's why I don't want to think about it
 722 2011-10-17 16:44:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't know how you make a UI around watched addresses that isn't confusing.
 723 2011-10-17 16:44:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's the eternal question :)
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 733 2011-10-17 16:56:23 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I sort of expected an eventual sign-gather interface to allow you to add inputs to a txn which is short inputs.
 734 2011-10-17 16:56:51 <Diablo-D3> woah
 735 2011-10-17 16:56:57 <Diablo-D3> fglrx supports hybrid switching now
 736 2011-10-17 16:57:00 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: e.g. if I give you a seralized txn which pays 5BTC to A but there is only 1 BTC of inputs you should be able to add more inputs to the txn.
 737 2011-10-17 16:57:10 <Diablo-D3> aticonfig --px-dgpu | --px-igpu | --px-list
 738 2011-10-17 16:57:56 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: there are many uses for that, but the most pratical is that the last person to sign may need to add a fee in order to make the txn acceptable to the network.
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 741 2011-10-17 16:59:44 <cuqa> is there a way to create a wallet.dat with a private key?
 742 2011-10-17 17:00:21 <cuqa> wallet seems to be corrupted. at least its crashing on start up
 743 2011-10-17 17:00:41 <gmaxwell> cuqa: have you looked in the log?
 744 2011-10-17 17:00:50 <gmaxwell> also— did you build your own bitcoind
 745 2011-10-17 17:06:45 <urstroyer> i messed up my wallet in using experimental bitcoin client on android
 746 2011-10-17 17:07:06 <gmaxwell> urstroyer: messed up how?
 747 2011-10-17 17:07:16 <gmaxwell> Do you have a backup?
 748 2011-10-17 17:07:18 <urstroyer> i think its a software bug
 749 2011-10-17 17:07:28 <urstroyer> i was able to extract the private key of my wallet
 750 2011-10-17 17:07:50 <sipa> using?
 751 2011-10-17 17:07:57 <urstroyer> so iam looking for a solution to get any client working with this private key
 752 2011-10-17 17:08:30 <sipa> my dumpprivkey branch has code for importing private keys
 753 2011-10-17 17:08:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: want to propose an RPC interface for that?  I'm aiming for something pretty general...
 754 2011-10-17 17:09:17 <gavinandresen> Doesn't mtGox allow 'sweeping' private keys now, too?
 755 2011-10-17 17:10:24 <sipa> oh yes
 756 2011-10-17 17:10:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell:   (and actually, wouldn't what I proposed support that?  if you submit a 'signtx' with a transaction with insufficient inputs, the signing process could add inputs)
 757 2011-10-17 17:10:34 <urstroyer> oh well thats great
 758 2011-10-17 17:10:40 <urstroyer> will try that out thank you so much
 759 2011-10-17 17:10:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: signtx <seralized> <amount_to_add>  would work I think, defaulting to zero, perhaps with a warning when the amount takes you over your pay_tx_fee in excess.   There also needs to be a "viewtx" that lets you see what you're signing before you do a signtx ...
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 761 2011-10-17 17:11:31 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: and, submit would of course reject it if it wouldn't validate due to missing inputs.
 762 2011-10-17 17:11:47 <sipa> TD suggested not using serialized transactions, but a somewhat higher level description
 763 2011-10-17 17:11:48 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: viewtx should be some python code outside of bitcoin, in my opinion.
 764 2011-10-17 17:11:56 <sipa> so that clients don't need to parse them
 765 2011-10-17 17:12:50 <gavinandresen> So TD wants all the bitcoin implementations to have two parsers....
 766 2011-10-17 17:12:54 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I suppose. ... disadvantage there is that without access to your wallet, the python code couldn't tell what parts of the input scripts your signatures could satisify.
 767 2011-10-17 17:13:10 <gavinandresen> that's what validateaddress is for
 768 2011-10-17 17:13:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: to sign a transaction, you need to know how to sign it anyway
 769 2011-10-17 17:13:56 <sipa> so it will have to be a type of transaction your client knows about
 770 2011-10-17 17:13:59 <gavinandresen> The RPC interface isn't intended for everyday use, it is intended for web services
 771 2011-10-17 17:14:32 <gavinandresen> viewtx would be very useful for debugging, though.... probably enough reason to have it
 772 2011-10-17 17:14:36 <gmaxwell> But ... I like the rpc interface. :)
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 774 2011-10-17 17:14:55 <gavinandresen> (I like the rpc interface, too, but I know I'm an outlier)
 775 2011-10-17 17:16:28 <gmaxwell> In any case... as I was saying, just an extra argument to add inputs to signtx is probably fine, perhaps with it possibly taking a special value of "fill" where it figures out whatever is requried (incl. fee) and adds that.
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 777 2011-10-17 17:17:00 <gmaxwell> since it doesn't actually submit you can decide after the fact if you like the fee... something you don't get with the current interface that annoys people.
 778 2011-10-17 17:18:13 <gmaxwell> The annoying thing is that you can't change the outputs, so if you don't have an input of exactly the right size you need to make another txn to break up your input.
 779 2011-10-17 17:19:57 <gavinandresen> Hmmm...  I'm not sure I see the use case.  Seems to me if I'm in the process of gathering signatures I already know all the transaction details
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 781 2011-10-17 17:22:20 <gavinandresen> Example:  user has a (bunch of) 2-sigs-required addresses with coins (they can provide 1 signature, they need to contact a wallet protection service for the second).  They create a "send 100 BTC to gmaxwell because he Rocks" transaction...
 782 2011-10-17 17:23:03 <gavinandresen> ... before the wallet protection service is contacted the complete transaction is created, selecting N inputs, paying to gmaxwell's address, change to somewhere else in the wallet, and enough fees to make sure it all gets confirmed.
 783 2011-10-17 17:25:16 <gavinandresen> Same thing for escrow:  there will be X bitcoins sent in possibly Y different transactions to a 2-of-3 escrow address.  User will ask their trading partner "pretty please sign this "pay me all X bitcoins" transaction"  (or maybe "pay me X-fee")
 784 2011-10-17 17:25:29 <sipa> actually
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 786 2011-10-17 17:26:22 <sipa> the only thing you need to ask the WPS is "please give me a signature for using coin 4f37a972:0, with txsignhash A473B47A..."
 787 2011-10-17 17:26:46 <sipa> although the WPS will probably want to see the transaction itself, in order to parse it and show it to the user
 788 2011-10-17 17:26:59 <gavinandresen> yes, the WPS definitely needs to see where the coins are going
 789 2011-10-17 17:27:01 <sipa> but what useful information can it give, even if it can completely parse all outputs
 790 2011-10-17 17:27:22 <gavinandresen> ... so it can send you an SMS saying "confirm payment of X bitcoins to BLAH"
 791 2011-10-17 17:27:26 <sipa> "you are sending X coins to address Y, and Z coins to address W, and Q coins to something we don't know"
 792 2011-10-17 17:27:39 <sipa> the WPS does not know your address book, and does not know what those addresses mean
 793 2011-10-17 17:27:41 <gmaxwell> There is also no advantage in hiding the data— since they'd learn it when it hits the blockchain.
 794 2011-10-17 17:28:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: you might have told the WPS in advance to only allow payouts to some finite set of addresses, for example. Or only allow payouts outside of the set with a phone call.
 795 2011-10-17 17:29:15 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hm. I suppose you're right— you'll know the size of the txn before you begin signing even though you don't have all the data yet.
 796 2011-10-17 17:29:18 <sipa> your client could tell you a randomly generated secret, and include a check for HASH(secret)=X in the txout script
 797 2011-10-17 17:29:45 <sipa> if you're then able to provide the correct secret to the WPS, it knows the tx can only have been generated by your client
 798 2011-10-17 17:30:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: or the badguy who has 0wned up your client.
 799 2011-10-17 17:30:04 <sipa> although that is not information that should end up in the block chain
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 801 2011-10-17 17:30:19 <gavinandresen> yes, whole reason for the WPS is to protect from a root-kitted machine
 802 2011-10-17 17:30:19 <sipa> right of course
 803 2011-10-17 17:30:34 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: there is still the SIPA and I jointly wish to pay tcatm usecase, but I guess thats a seperate enough usecase that it can't be cleanly shoehorned onto this interface. Oh well.
 804 2011-10-17 17:30:56 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: what is that case?
 805 2011-10-17 17:31:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: in any case, as I was saying— there is no point in hiding it from them because they'd eventually see the signature in the blockchain. The only reason I can think to hide it would be to prevent them from announcing it to the network.
 806 2011-10-17 17:31:33 <sipa> there is definitely no point in hiding
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 808 2011-10-17 17:31:43 <sipa> i'm just questioning what they can usefully do with it
 809 2011-10-17 17:31:58 <sipa> the point is that the WPS has a way of contacting you - either through SMS, or some secure web interface, ...
 810 2011-10-17 17:32:27 <sipa> if an attacker has stolen your device, yes, then he has the secrer, but they can't pass it to the WPS
 811 2011-10-17 17:33:11 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: e.g. tcatm says he'll release historical market data he's collected if someone pays him 10 btc. Sipa and I want to go in for 5btc each but don't trust each other to made good on the payment.  We could pay via a join transaction (each of us provides an input). If either renig, the txn just doesn't happen (not enough output).
 812 2011-10-17 17:33:21 <sipa> if the attacker has both your client and the ability to fake being you in front of the WPS, there is nothing we can do
 813 2011-10-17 17:33:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: to get there from your API would require the ability to add inputs, but since you can't add change if its done like that it gets messy.
 814 2011-10-17 17:33:51 <da2ce7> tcatm, I'll donate 5btc to that cause.
 815 2011-10-17 17:33:52 <da2ce7> :)
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 817 2011-10-17 17:34:11 <da2ce7> but it must be released under something like CC-0
 818 2011-10-17 17:34:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: got it. I think you could do that by spending to two 5btc outputs, each verifying the other owns those outputs, then one generating a txn that they ask the other to sign....
 819 2011-10-17 17:34:41 Lopuz has joined
 820 2011-10-17 17:35:43 <gmaxwell> hm. yes, that would be a way to do it... just some call that lets you specify some random input you don't have the keys for as one of the inputs you're using.
 821 2011-10-17 17:35:57 <gmaxwell> Then you just convince the far end to sign it.
 822 2011-10-17 17:36:16 <gmaxwell> Thus all inputs are known up front and you don't have any fee confusion either.
 823 2011-10-17 17:36:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup.  Again, I'm thinking an outside-bitcoind-tool that lets you find transactions you don't own and generate transactions with arbitrary inputs might be the way to go.
 824 2011-10-17 17:37:23 <gavinandresen> (instead of teaching bitcoind to be able to lookup any possible input by address)
 825 2011-10-17 17:38:02 <luke-jr> …
 826 2011-10-17 17:38:14 <gmaxwell> Also, it can happily write out the change too.. so e.g. I could just ask sipa to identify some random input of his, and then I write up a txn that sends the change back to it.
 827 2011-10-17 17:38:41 <gmaxwell> It's up to him to look to make sure I didn't decide to write it to steal the whole input, of course. ;)
 828 2011-10-17 17:38:42 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup... you just need an input or inputs with more than 5btc unspent
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 831 2011-10-17 17:39:45 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well, we don't want to have to constantly carry every possible index in every bitcoin node, thats not efficient.
 832 2011-10-17 17:39:48 <gavinandresen> ... and you have to hope that he doesn't accidentally spend those...
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 834 2011-10-17 17:40:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes, well, at some point we'll need to add some functionality to lock inputs.
 835 2011-10-17 17:40:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: but at least if he does we can just try again.. nothing is lost.
 836 2011-10-17 17:41:39 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: actually, easiest would be:  1. Create a multisig 2-of-2 address using public keys from you and tcatm.
 837 2011-10-17 17:42:23 <gavinandresen> ....mmmm..... hang on.....  might accidently burn money....
 838 2011-10-17 17:42:40 <gmaxwell> Also, don't want to bring tcatm into the agreement between sipa and I.
 839 2011-10-17 17:42:56 <gavinandresen> (yeah, I meant sipa, not tcatm)
 840 2011-10-17 17:43:15 <gmaxwell> oh yea, you get a randsom attack using the cross sigs.
 841 2011-10-17 17:43:39 <gavinandresen> yeah, I'm going to stop thinking about that use case...
 842 2011-10-17 17:44:33 <gmaxwell> Joint inputs are just generally good. And I think you figured out how to make it reasonable enough— just some tool that lets you pick random inputs to use in a custom txn is enough.. that plus signtx should do it.
 843 2011-10-17 17:45:19 <gavinandresen> ... plus maybe a way to tell your wallet "please don't use these inputs for the next X hours"
 844 2011-10-17 17:46:08 shadders has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 846 2011-10-17 17:46:40 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes.. a 'lock input' that takes a timeout.  This also gets us pretty close to a system where web interfaces could have users approve the actual fees on txn.
 847 2011-10-17 17:47:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. a getransaction <timeout> which forms a txn and locks the input for timeout seconds.  Then the webui inspects it and gets the user to approve the fees.  Then you signtx and submit.
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 856 2011-10-17 18:17:14 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
 857 2011-10-17 18:17:15 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":3.75996,"low":2.26,"avg":3.068002102,"vwap":2.979368442,"vol":184776,"last_all":2.59001,"last_local":2.59001,"last":2.59001,"buy":2.59001,"sell":2.6}}
 858 2011-10-17 18:17:17 <gjs278> lol
 859 2011-10-17 18:17:21 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
 860 2011-10-17 18:17:25 <gribble> Current Blocks: 149655 | Current Difficulty: 1468195.4272208 | Next Difficulty At Block: 151199 | Next Difficulty In: 1544 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1310154.61035974 | Estimated Percent Change: -10.7642902253
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 868 2011-10-17 18:36:15 <nhodges> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3121669
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 888 2011-10-17 19:30:09 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r239 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Message.java: Disable assert in Message causing failing tests
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 891 2011-10-17 19:37:02 <midnightmagic> hey tcatm: any chance of getting you to release raw historical data for mtgox/etc again?
 892 2011-10-17 19:37:14 gavinandresen has joined
 893 2011-10-17 19:37:30 <midnightmagic> oh, hey gavin.
 894 2011-10-17 19:38:11 <gavinandresen> howdy
 895 2011-10-17 19:38:52 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, we have that
 896 2011-10-17 19:39:08 gjs278 has joined
 897 2011-10-17 19:39:32 <phantomcircuit> http://bitcoinmarkets.com/bitcoinmarkets-2011-10.sql.bz2.torrent
 898 2011-10-17 19:40:20 XX01XX is now known as Zzz01Zzz
 899 2011-10-17 19:40:24 <phantomcircuit> actually screw that link i'll get mizery to give a better dump
 900 2011-10-17 19:42:07 molecular has joined
 901 2011-10-17 19:46:50 <midnightmagic> okay thanks phantom. is that 100% all-time history?
 902 2011-10-17 19:47:33 <midnightmagic> tcatm was logging full market gets for a while I think, so even changes in the bid/ask tables was available.
 903 2011-10-17 19:47:39 <midnightmagic> i don't know if he's still doing that.
 904 2011-10-17 19:52:01 <wumpus> i'm also logging full market depths 10 seconds
 905 2011-10-17 19:53:26 <sipa> i have mtgox bids/asks every minute
 906 2011-10-17 19:53:30 urstroyer has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
 907 2011-10-17 19:54:32 <midnightmagic> how far back?
 908 2011-10-17 19:54:37 <wumpus> first record is from Fri May 27 10:48:48 2011
 909 2011-10-17 19:54:51 <midnightmagic> ah cool. willing to share?
 910 2011-10-17 19:55:09 <wumpus> yeah no problem
 911 2011-10-17 19:55:20 <midnightmagic> awesome, thanks!
 912 2011-10-17 19:55:37 <sipa> i have data starting from march, but with gaps of a few days sometimes
 913 2011-10-17 19:57:29 AnniGONE has joined
 914 2011-10-17 19:57:31 AnniGONE is now known as AnnihilaT
 915 2011-10-17 19:58:53 <midnightmagic> well, I'd be happy to re-release a stitched-together merge of any data I get, and I have lots of bandwidth on U.S. servers to re-release it.
 916 2011-10-17 19:59:06 eueueue has joined
 917 2011-10-17 19:59:10 <wumpus> yes same for me, there's probably some holes where I had no internet connection or other trouble
 918 2011-10-17 19:59:19 <wumpus> but it's mostly complete
 919 2011-10-17 20:00:26 shLONG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 920 2011-10-17 20:00:32 <wumpus> ok this thing is huge, I had no idea
 921 2011-10-17 20:02:13 <wumpus> I'll need some more efficient representation (for example, diff/changes format) to make it realistic to upload this
 922 2011-10-17 20:02:30 <midnightmagic> i can handle literally any archive format that exists. :) even the weird exotic ones like pak?j
 923 2011-10-17 20:03:09 <sipa> i have them per month in a .tar.lzma
 924 2011-10-17 20:03:35 PK_ has joined
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 926 2011-10-17 20:04:10 <midnightmagic> cool! well anywhere you want to put them, i'm happy to d/l and pass it along to the next person. (Like so neither of you would have to re-transmit.)
 927 2011-10-17 20:04:14 PK_ is now known as PK
 928 2011-10-17 20:04:57 alanp has joined
 929 2011-10-17 20:05:18 <sipa> i'm creating archives for the last few months
 930 2011-10-17 20:05:39 <sipa> it takes a while... 40000 files per month
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 934 2011-10-17 20:07:56 <midnightmagic> okiedokie! hey thanks, man, I appreciate it. and if wumpus wants a copy, like I said, I'm happy to put the files up for additional downloads
 935 2011-10-17 20:09:12 <wumpus> mine will be a ~30GB .gz file with a json record per line...
 936 2011-10-17 20:10:00 <wumpus> I'll let you know when it finished exporting
 937 2011-10-17 20:11:19 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: if you feel like debugging more: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/587
 938 2011-10-17 20:11:29 <sipa> 3 MB per month here
 939 2011-10-17 20:12:03 <copumpkin> BlueMatt: I bookmarked it but am quite busy these days so might not get to it for a while :)
 940 2011-10-17 20:12:05 <copumpkin> thanks
 941 2011-10-17 20:12:19 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: fair enough, I know the feeling ;)
 942 2011-10-17 20:12:20 <sipa> wumpus: hint: sorting the file by date before putting them in a tar file massively increases compression ratio
 943 2011-10-17 20:12:32 <BlueMatt> if anyone else feels like debugging gcc oddities please feel free :)
 944 2011-10-17 20:12:37 <copumpkin> oh shit, it's the wumpus
 945 2011-10-17 20:12:38 * copumpkin flees
 946 2011-10-17 20:13:04 Beremat has joined
 947 2011-10-17 20:13:37 <wumpus> it's more-or-less sorted by date, 30gb is the size of the uncompressed bson file, so it was just an estimate.. it could be the result is much smaller, but bson->json->gz is taking a while :-)
 948 2011-10-17 20:15:33 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 949 2011-10-17 20:20:18 <neofutur> same here I can retransmit and host it
 950 2011-10-17 20:20:50 abragin has joined
 951 2011-10-17 20:22:00 <neofutur> we could have a download page with rotating urls, pointing to different servers
 952 2011-10-17 20:22:20 <midnightmagic> is that @ mtgox servers? don't you already have all this data? :)
 953 2011-10-17 20:22:39 <midnightmagic> i didn't want to ask because i thought it would just be a pain to release it.
 954 2011-10-17 20:23:29 eueueue has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 955 2011-10-17 20:23:38 <wumpus> or a torrent
 956 2011-10-17 20:23:49 <Tuxavant> just going to leave this right here... (browser plugin idea) http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lezlk/bitcoin_value_is_dropping_dramatically_we_need_to/c2s5spi
 957 2011-10-17 20:23:51 <rjk2> torrent ftw, i have a seedbox
 958 2011-10-17 20:25:37 <BlueMatt> Tuxavant: have you seen https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme
 959 2011-10-17 20:25:45 ByteCoin has left ()
 960 2011-10-17 20:25:51 <Tuxavant> reading now
 961 2011-10-17 20:26:51 <Tuxavant> BlueMatt, nice... is there any word on any kind of plugin that might do what was described?
 962 2011-10-17 20:26:58 <BlueMatt> bitcoin 0.5
 963 2011-10-17 20:27:04 <BlueMatt> no plugin needed
 964 2011-10-17 20:27:20 <BlueMatt> Tuxavant: see my comment http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lezlk/bitcoin_value_is_dropping_dramatically_we_need_to/c2s8up2
 965 2011-10-17 20:27:38 ymirhotfoot has joined
 966 2011-10-17 20:28:55 <BlueMatt> Tuxavant: and by that I meant http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/lezlk/bitcoin_value_is_dropping_dramatically_we_need_to/c2s8va0
 967 2011-10-17 20:28:59 <Tuxavant> gotcha... fantastic
 968 2011-10-17 20:29:49 <Tuxavant> what's the eta for .5 anyway?
 969 2011-10-17 20:29:52 <neofutur> midnightmagic: nop my own servers
 970 2011-10-17 20:29:57 <midnightmagic> neofutur: k
 971 2011-10-17 20:30:11 <neofutur> midnightmagic: i sell a service to mtgo as an independant worker, i m not an employee
 972 2011-10-17 20:30:13 <BlueMatt> its already rc1, but building bitcoin-qt.exe is not looking good...
 973 2011-10-17 20:30:24 <neofutur> my main work is https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=1687.0
 974 2011-10-17 20:31:26 <wumpus> you can build it succesfully on windows though
 975 2011-10-17 20:31:27 <neofutur> and afaik mtgox is not saving all the historic data, too many more urgent things to do
 976 2011-10-17 20:31:54 <neofutur> and if they have . . . I dont :p
 977 2011-10-17 20:31:58 <wumpus> cross-compile from linux still needs to be fixed :/
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 979 2011-10-17 20:32:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: …
 980 2011-10-17 20:32:18 <luke-jr> Tuxavant: I have bitcoin-qt.exe for git just after rc1 ;)
 981 2011-10-17 20:32:34 WakiMiko_ has joined
 982 2011-10-17 20:32:44 <Tuxavant> luke-jr, BlueMatt biting my nails in anticipation 8D
 983 2011-10-17 20:33:11 <sipa> wumpus, BlueMatt: what is the problem exactly with the build?
 984 2011-10-17 20:33:19 <luke-jr> Tuxavant: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-qt-0.5.0rc1-755e2819.exe
 985 2011-10-17 20:33:32 <luke-jr> Tuxavant: possibly throw these in the same dir http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoin-qt-libs.zip
 986 2011-10-17 20:33:43 <wumpus> well it builds, the resulting exe is just borked, return arguments get corrupted in some calling convention issue
 987 2011-10-17 20:34:04 <Tuxavant> luke-jr, sending a .exe to a guy named Tux... shame on you 8D
 988 2011-10-17 20:34:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: its still the old mismatching calling conventions from earlier...
 989 2011-10-17 20:34:32 * luke-jr never encountered that issue
 990 2011-10-17 20:34:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yes, I know but its not reproduceable last time I checked...
 991 2011-10-17 20:34:41 <wumpus> are you cross-compiling luke-jr?
 992 2011-10-17 20:34:46 <luke-jr> maybe it's because you're trying to build for i386, and mingw is supposed to be i686 now
 993 2011-10-17 20:34:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what's not reproducable?
 994 2011-10-17 20:35:02 <luke-jr> wumpus: yes
 995 2011-10-17 20:35:03 <BlueMatt> your binary
 996 2011-10-17 20:35:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: sure it is
 997 2011-10-17 20:35:16 <BlueMatt> easily?
 998 2011-10-17 20:35:20 <luke-jr> no, not easily
 999 2011-10-17 20:35:22 <luke-jr> it was a pain
1000 2011-10-17 20:35:27 <BlueMatt> exactly
1001 2011-10-17 20:35:35 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/587
1002 2011-10-17 20:35:37 <luke-jr> I blame you guys for only making stuff work with Ubuntu :P
1003 2011-10-17 20:35:42 <wumpus> luke-jr: yes it's probably something with the compiler flags, i386/686 COULD be the issue, one of the many
1004 2011-10-17 20:35:50 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1005 2011-10-17 20:36:07 <BlueMatt> of course it is, well more likely headers somewhere in qt...
1006 2011-10-17 20:36:11 <luke-jr> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/494067/ <-- changes I made to bitcoin-qt
1007 2011-10-17 20:36:24 <sipa> midnightmagic: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/mtgox.tgz
1008 2011-10-17 20:36:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nonsense, everyone can cross-compiles Qt apps fine
1009 2011-10-17 20:36:34 <wumpus> it doesn't only work with ubuntu
1010 2011-10-17 20:36:48 <wumpus> there's nothing ubuntu specific used at all
1011 2011-10-17 20:36:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I know, but it is something specific to qt+bitcoin
1012 2011-10-17 20:37:02 <BlueMatt> not just bitcoin
1013 2011-10-17 20:37:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: obviously not, since qt+bitcoin works fine here
1014 2011-10-17 20:37:16 <wumpus> it would be interesting to try to compile the qt demos
1015 2011-10-17 20:37:25 <midnightmagic> thanks sipa! you rule man, as usual.
1016 2011-10-17 20:37:34 WakiMiko has joined
1017 2011-10-17 20:37:50 <midnightmagic> 3fee767aee598f364554a623196fba47cc9d640c07eaa4514ef5690f2bc8e486  mtgox.tgz   <-- that it?
1018 2011-10-17 20:37:58 <luke-jr> oh, probably because of that "mingw32msvc" bit
1019 2011-10-17 20:38:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I made some of the same modifications...also, Im done discussing how your build works, thats great in fact, I have no doubt its not hard to build a working copy on win32/fedora/etc/etc/etc, but I couldnt care less
1020 2011-10-17 20:38:07 <luke-jr> *normal* mingw is NOT compatible with msvc
1021 2011-10-17 20:38:08 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1022 2011-10-17 20:38:30 <wumpus> luke-jr: c is, c++ isn't
1023 2011-10-17 20:38:42 <luke-jr> wumpus: Bitcoin-Qt is all C++ and Qt
1024 2011-10-17 20:38:46 <wumpus> c++ calling convention is not standardized on windows
1025 2011-10-17 20:38:51 <wumpus> luke-jr: right
1026 2011-10-17 20:38:59 <wumpus> woo, seems we found our issue
1027 2011-10-17 20:39:17 <luke-jr> so does Ubuntu have some hack of MingW that tries to be MSVC-compatible?
1028 2011-10-17 20:39:43 <wumpus> I have no idea
1029 2011-10-17 20:40:35 <luke-jr> maybe gitian should just switch to Gentoo which has saner crossdev tools
1030 2011-10-17 20:41:19 <wumpus> so we first spend 10 hours building our linux distribution before we can start building bitcoin? :P
1031 2011-10-17 20:41:20 <midnightmagic> if anyone wants sipa's file (assuming it's cool with sipa) let me know I have a URL here with a relatively fast US-based server.
1032 2011-10-17 20:42:12 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: hm? it's only 20mbytes.
1033 2011-10-17 20:42:16 <wumpus> or isn't gentoo based on the emerge stuff anymore? been a long time for me
1034 2011-10-17 20:42:28 <BlueMatt> still is
1035 2011-10-17 20:42:39 <midnightmagic> oh! so it is. LOL. My eyes were off by a couple orders of magnitude. I thought it downloaded fast..
1036 2011-10-17 20:43:14 <BlueMatt> oh, also qt build isnt deterministic yet, so theres that...
1037 2011-10-17 20:45:31 <midnightmagic> woo! compression ratio of 308x, very nice.
1038 2011-10-17 20:47:36 PK has quit ()
1039 2011-10-17 20:48:14 magn3ts has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1040 2011-10-17 20:51:43 <luke-jr> wumpus: or you just untar the latest stage3…
1041 2011-10-17 20:51:59 <luke-jr> wumpus: maybe crossdev binary packages if your PC is slow
1042 2011-10-17 20:52:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: deterministicness should not be a blocker
1043 2011-10-17 20:52:47 <luke-jr> that's a gitian issue/goal, not bitcoin-related
1044 2011-10-17 20:52:50 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1045 2011-10-17 20:53:01 <luke-jr> not a single other program is built deterministic
1046 2011-10-17 20:53:04 <gmaxwell> Thats kind of frightening though— and it makes it impossible for people to validate that the binary is what you claim it is.
1047 2011-10-17 20:53:15 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so? that's the status quo of all software
1048 2011-10-17 20:53:23 <gmaxwell> Most programs don't do what bitcoin does.
1049 2011-10-17 20:53:24 <luke-jr> even with gitian, it's still true
1050 2011-10-17 20:53:39 <luke-jr> because Ubuntu's compiler could (and is) be messing with its generation
1051 2011-10-17 20:53:40 <gmaxwell> Why isn't it determinstic?
1052 2011-10-17 20:53:48 <luke-jr> you're just trusting Ubuntu
1053 2011-10-17 20:53:55 <gmaxwell> My builds of my packages are determinstic.
1054 2011-10-17 20:54:04 <gmaxwell> Yes, but better than trusting ubuntu plus something else
1055 2011-10-17 20:54:18 <luke-jr> point is, it's a new unproven technology
1056 2011-10-17 20:54:20 <luke-jr> not the norm
1057 2011-10-17 20:54:31 <luke-jr> gitian's goals don't need to force bitcoin-qt to wait
1058 2011-10-17 20:54:34 <gmaxwell> (and I often use checksums of the object files in order to make sure that syntax only changes really were syntax only changes)
1059 2011-10-17 20:55:16 <gmaxwell> If the non-determinism is not understood it could be a result of a bug which is making bitcoin get miscompiled.
1060 2011-10-17 20:55:54 <gmaxwell> Ideally someone should take the resulting binaries and use objdump -D and diff the output to see how they differ.
1061 2011-10-17 20:56:48 <luke-jr> there are bigger problems than making Bitcoin-Qt deterministic
1062 2011-10-17 20:56:59 <luke-jr> like making bitcoind not randomly corrupt wallets
1063 2011-10-17 20:57:45 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: do we have any data on that yet?
1064 2011-10-17 20:58:03 <luke-jr> nope
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1072 2011-10-17 21:07:33 <neofutur> sipa: mirrors : europe : http://xena.ww7.be/bitcoinmirror/ http://cahier2.ww7.be/bitcoinmirror/  US : http://archives.ww7.pe/bitcoinmirror/
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1101 2011-10-17 21:41:15 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know, I was thinking about that problem wrong
1102 2011-10-17 21:41:45 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I basically cant write FRAME_BUFFER_SIZE worth of samples
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1106 2011-10-17 21:48:04 <midnightmagic> wumpus: I don't suppose that archive of yours is up somewhere?
1107 2011-10-17 21:48:10 <midnightmagic> :-)
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1112 2011-10-17 21:51:04 <kinlo> hmmmz
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1114 2011-10-17 21:51:25 <kinlo> anyone read that article about the person behind satoshi?
1115 2011-10-17 21:51:36 <kinlo> anyone who can comment on that?
1116 2011-10-17 21:51:52 <jeremias> what article
1117 2011-10-17 21:51:54 <jeremias> there are numerous
1118 2011-10-17 21:52:11 <jeremias> and all of them are bullshit
1119 2011-10-17 21:52:31 <jeremias> afaik
1120 2011-10-17 21:52:43 <kinlo> http://cryptome.org/0005/bitcoin-who.pdf
1121 2011-10-17 21:52:48 <kinlo> it's a fun read anyway
1122 2011-10-17 21:52:56 <kinlo> probably not true
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1125 2011-10-17 21:53:37 <jeremias> well yeah definitely not true
1126 2011-10-17 21:53:57 <jeremias> or that they haven't found the real satoshi
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1150 2011-10-17 22:36:12 * midnightmagic pokes wumpus :)
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