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31 2011-10-23 00:43:12 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rf4fa29c888b1 / (5 files in 3 dirs): Cache last 500 blocks in ring buffer.
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180 2011-10-23 06:32:49 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * rddeedffaf2b6 bitcoin-alt/ (4 files in 3 dirs): significant progress finding heads is still very expensive
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208 2011-10-23 07:12:05 <wumpus> tcatm: the translations are built into the executable automatically
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211 2011-10-23 07:13:06 <wumpus> tcatm: and I'm not sure that would be sane; it would get rid of one place where the translations are specified, but you still need to add them to the qrc file
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213 2011-10-23 07:14:24 <wumpus> tcatm: but maybe it's a good idea, if we add a warning :-)
214 2011-10-23 07:14:57 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
215 2011-10-23 07:14:58 <gribble> 150314
216 2011-10-23 07:15:03 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
217 2011-10-23 07:15:04 <gribble> 150314
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220 2011-10-23 07:18:47 <PK> wumpus / tcatm: btc translations? I love to keep them separate so I can delete them. I want bitcoin in english, not in my native language. If you compile it into the binary then please and an option to select it manually.
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223 2011-10-23 07:19:20 <wumpus> PK: then make sure your LANG_XX environment variables are set to english
224 2011-10-23 07:19:29 <wumpus> I'm in the netherlands and always installa an english ubuntu too
225 2011-10-23 07:19:44 <PK> wumpus: windows.
226 2011-10-23 07:19:52 <wumpus> you don't have t resort to hacks like deleting files for that
227 2011-10-23 07:19:59 <wumpus> just fix the damn thing <:
228 2011-10-23 07:20:28 <PK> although my windows is english by default. I have the swiss german locales. But some applications (like bitcoin) still don't get it.
229 2011-10-23 07:20:51 <lfm> the LANG_XX would effect lots more stuff than just bitcoin
230 2011-10-23 07:21:21 <wumpus> lfm: yes, but I suppose he doesn't want any language in his native language
231 2011-10-23 07:21:26 <wumpus> lfm: application
232 2011-10-23 07:21:29 <PK> wumpus: you have the windows language, there is a separate language setting for office and then you have the locales and the keyboard layout. Four places where you can set the language. And that isn't including the browser settings even. :(
233 2011-10-23 07:21:47 <wumpus> PK: I agree with your problem
234 2011-10-23 07:21:49 <lfm> wumpus ya, thats not what he said, he said he just wanted bitcoin in english
235 2011-10-23 07:21:53 <wumpus> PK: just not with your solution :-)
236 2011-10-23 07:22:24 <wumpus> this means qt takes the wrong language setting on windows, I guess
237 2011-10-23 07:22:30 <wumpus> we just use the qt system locale now to set the language
238 2011-10-23 07:22:34 <PK> wumpus: you're wrong there. Some things, like financial stuff I want in my native language.Because I learned all the accounting stuff years ago in german.
239 2011-10-23 07:22:49 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r01e60bf9c2a2 bitcoin-alt/ (bitcoin.py bitcoin/peer.py bitcoin/storage/postgres.py): store transactions as well
240 2011-10-23 07:22:55 <wumpus> feel free to send a fix to take the right setting, personally I don't use windows and know nothing of the regedit forests
241 2011-10-23 07:22:56 <PK> but that's fine. I can write a batch script that sets the lang_xx just for that applicatino.
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243 2011-10-23 07:24:07 <lfm> having the language files separate is not a big deal
244 2011-10-23 07:24:16 <wumpus> PK: that's an even easier solution, indeed
245 2011-10-23 07:24:37 <PK> wumpus: I already have one to start bitcoind with -server
246 2011-10-23 07:24:38 <wumpus> yes it is. I would prefere a statically linked executable that includes everything
247 2011-10-23 07:24:47 <wumpus> it means you can launch it from usb stick etc
248 2011-10-23 07:25:12 <wumpus> otherwise you have to hardcode paths to files and such
249 2011-10-23 07:25:26 <wumpus> or add additional configuration files to specify the paths
250 2011-10-23 07:25:32 <lfm> you can launch it from usb with separate files too
251 2011-10-23 07:26:04 <wumpus> and while developing you have to make sure the right files are used (ie, not the system files but those in your local tree)
252 2011-10-23 07:26:26 <lfm> linking ALL the text is just bloat that most people wont use
253 2011-10-23 07:26:27 <PK> actually, I launch it from a network share right now. It works quite fine. Even the datadir works with UNC paths.
254 2011-10-23 07:26:31 <wumpus> it's just text man
255 2011-10-23 07:26:43 <wumpus> it's not bloat it hardly figures in the executable size
256 2011-10-23 07:27:09 <wumpus> and it isn't loaded into memory if you don't use it either
257 2011-10-23 07:27:39 <lfm> 836K .
258 2011-10-23 07:27:52 <wumpus> anyway, feel free to submit a patch to do it differently
259 2011-10-23 07:28:15 <wumpus> I'm a bit tired of this
260 2011-10-23 07:28:17 <lfm> simple just yank the patch that links them in
261 2011-10-23 07:28:30 <wumpus> yes and make an installer that installs them
262 2011-10-23 07:28:39 <wumpus> otherwise no one has translations anymore
263 2011-10-23 07:28:45 <lfm> wasnt that done before too?
264 2011-10-23 07:28:50 <wumpus> I have no idea
265 2011-10-23 07:29:09 <wumpus> I don't worry about it I have other things to do, it works fine to me to link everything into one
266 2011-10-23 07:29:10 <lfm> so you fixed something that you dont know if it needed fixing?
267 2011-10-23 07:30:37 <wumpus> like getting cross-compile to windows to work
268 2011-10-23 07:30:41 <PK> wumpus: don't you love it if you have a great idea, implement it and people hold it again you? Happens to me all the time.
269 2011-10-23 07:31:00 <lfm> yup, thats very common
270 2011-10-23 07:31:23 <wumpus> PK: yeah, it sometimes makes me wonder why I bother with open source development at all
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272 2011-10-23 07:31:54 <lfm> on the other hand "it works this way better for me" is not always the best way to do things
273 2011-10-23 07:31:56 <wumpus> PK: people complain a lot less about implementation-specific details for paid projects
274 2011-10-23 07:32:06 <wumpus> PK: they just want things fixed/working
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276 2011-10-23 07:32:48 <wumpus> well a single exe works and is easy
277 2011-10-23 07:32:59 <PK> wumpus: actually no. It happens in paid projects too. You fix some really annoying bug and everything is like "Why did you take that feature away? We use that every day in production!"
278 2011-10-23 07:33:12 <wumpus> mac and android have solved the problem by always bundling files for one application into one
279 2011-10-23 07:33:47 <lfm> resource forks arnt exactly all one file
280 2011-10-23 07:33:48 <wumpus> PK: yeah that's true
281 2011-10-23 07:33:52 <PK> wumpus: teached me to always ask the users first before. More than once it turned out that I was just thinking differently.
282 2011-10-23 07:34:20 <wumpus> I mean deleting file sis *not* the proper way to change translations for a program
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284 2011-10-23 07:34:32 <wumpus> install the next version and whoo, they're back
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286 2011-10-23 07:34:45 <FellowTraveler> hi all.
287 2011-10-23 07:35:17 <wumpus> the best solution would be to add a configuration option for the language
288 2011-10-23 07:35:24 <wumpus> in options...
289 2011-10-23 07:35:28 <PK> wumpus: you could also rename the directories to mix the translations. :) Great way to play pranks on your friends if they forgot to screenlock their computer again.
290 2011-10-23 07:36:01 <wumpus> PK: right, you'd need a hex editor for that now :P
291 2011-10-23 07:36:13 <wumpus> PK: that's one hell of a usecase though :-)
292 2011-10-23 07:36:18 <lfm> just an environment var
293 2011-10-23 07:36:26 <wumpus> the environment var already exists
294 2011-10-23 07:36:39 <lfm> and you can change it for pranks
295 2011-10-23 07:36:40 <wumpus> export LANG=nl_NL.utf8
296 2011-10-23 07:36:43 <wumpus> instant dutch
297 2011-10-23 07:37:59 <lfm> I always run bitcoin from scripts anyway so I could put the LANG= in the scripts if I had such a problem.
298 2011-10-23 07:38:08 <wumpus> most people really couldn't give a fuck that all translations are in there, it could even be useful if they want to learn a language
299 2011-10-23 07:38:21 <lfm> lol
300 2011-10-23 07:38:32 <lfm> worst way to learn a language ever
301 2011-10-23 07:38:49 <wumpus> yeah probably
302 2011-10-23 07:39:01 <wumpus> though it helps to be confronted with a language everywhere
303 2011-10-23 07:39:03 <gmaxwell> "so, all you know how to say is 'transaction fee' and 'address'??"
304 2011-10-23 07:39:05 <wumpus> forces you to look up works
305 2011-10-23 07:39:08 <wumpus> words
306 2011-10-23 07:39:16 <gmaxwell> "what is this confirmation you keep talking about?!"
307 2011-10-23 07:39:45 <wumpus> hehe
308 2011-10-23 07:39:47 <lfm> confirmation is a sacrement in the roman church
309 2011-10-23 07:40:15 <lfm> dictionairies are usefull!
310 2011-10-23 07:41:43 <wumpus> so using bitcoin is like performaing a catholic ritual? wow, it seems we found an application
311 2011-10-23 07:42:27 <lfm> so when you make a transaction it will be accepted when you are ten years old
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313 2011-10-23 07:43:08 <wumpus> so that is why we have bible texts in the block chain
314 2011-10-23 07:43:30 <lfm> yup, its all a papist plot
315 2011-10-23 07:45:15 <wumpus> do we have a vatican translation already?
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317 2011-10-23 07:45:25 <lfm> latin?
318 2011-10-23 07:45:34 <chmod755> wumpus lol
319 2011-10-23 07:46:00 <chmod755> wumpus: there's a channel for vatican city #bitcoin-va
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321 2011-10-23 07:50:05 <PK> chmod755: how many bitcoins does an absolution cost?
322 2011-10-23 07:50:09 <PK> I could use one...
323 2011-10-23 07:50:31 <lfm> pay what you can afford to give of course
324 2011-10-23 07:51:05 <PK> So if I gave up all my bitcoins I get an absolution! great, 0.2 BTC sounds really cheap.
325 2011-10-23 07:51:08 <lfm> and if you short change the preist it wont work right
326 2011-10-23 07:51:49 <lfm> you still go to hell for 0.2 btc I think
327 2011-10-23 07:52:54 <PK> oh da.. I mean: oh, he.. or I better don't respond to that.
328 2011-10-23 07:55:01 <wumpus> has anyone here worked with gitian? any idea what kind of AWS image to create?
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331 2011-10-23 07:55:56 <chmod755> PK: I'm not sure
332 2011-10-23 07:55:58 <PK> I haven't, sorry.
333 2011-10-23 07:56:52 <chmod755> PK: (09:43:38 AM) pope: absolution costs 250 BTC
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336 2011-10-23 07:58:26 <PK> chmod755: lol. 750$ sounds very affordable too :)
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348 2011-10-23 08:15:21 <wumpus> tcatm: TRANSLATIONS = $$files(src/qt/locale/bitcoin_*.ts) seems to work btw
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360 2011-10-23 08:37:40 <wumpus> locale nb is nb_NO right?
361 2011-10-23 08:38:20 <wumpus> Bokmål, Norwegian
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366 2011-10-23 08:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan * rf86ecd4 / (12 files in 3 dirs):
367 2011-10-23 08:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: translation fixes
368 2011-10-23 08:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - use wildcard for TRANSLATIONS in bitcoin-qt.pro to automatically build all translations present in src/qt/locale (thanks @tcatm)
369 2011-10-23 08:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - rename language files to the usual <lang>_<TERRITORY>
370 2011-10-23 08:51:38 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - include recently added language files for es_ES and nb_NO - http://git.io/Oq8Xkg
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386 2011-10-23 09:03:27 <tcatm> wumpus: I'm not sure whether renaming language files to lang_terrritory is a good idea. e.g. a german translation will probably work well in most territories where people speak german
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388 2011-10-23 09:03:36 <wumpus> it is a good idea
389 2011-10-23 09:03:39 <wumpus> all software does it
390 2011-10-23 09:04:01 <wumpus> you can use the qrc file to link de_<otherterritory> to the same language file if you want
391 2011-10-23 09:04:21 HaltingState2 has left ("Leaving")
392 2011-10-23 09:05:07 <tcatm> and if you miss one it will fall back to english instead of falling back to bitcoin_de.ts?
393 2011-10-23 09:05:16 <wumpus> yes but that was already the case
394 2011-10-23 09:05:26 <wumpus> only the names changed, not the lookup logic
395 2011-10-23 09:06:11 <wumpus> if you want it to pick *some territory* for a language if the language is present but not the territoriy, that would have to be explicitly implemented, but it's probably language dependent whehter that is appropriate
396 2011-10-23 09:06:54 <wumpus> wouldn't be too difficult though
397 2011-10-23 09:07:37 <wumpus> just default to xx_XX if xx_YY is not present
398 2011-10-23 09:07:57 <tcatm> why not use the built-in fallback logic?
399 2011-10-23 09:08:23 <wumpus> if there is built-in fallback logic that's already used
400 2011-10-23 09:08:37 <wumpus> I'm not sure Qt has that though...
401 2011-10-23 09:08:54 <wumpus> but if you know more than me, feel free to fix it
402 2011-10-23 09:08:58 <wumpus> :P
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404 2011-10-23 09:09:48 <wumpus> tcatm: does Qt have built-in fallback logic?
405 2011-10-23 09:10:02 <tcatm> oh, sorry. I didn't know that there was yet another file for finding the translations (bitcoin.qrc). I thought it just used the file name
406 2011-10-23 09:10:06 <wumpus> I have read the documentation but not found anything
407 2011-10-23 09:10:12 <wumpus> but that's some time ago
408 2011-10-23 09:11:07 <wumpus> I'm not much of a geography expert, I didn't even know about territory-specific language differences when I started, that's why they were called bitcoin_nl_NL not bitcoin_nl_NL
409 2011-10-23 09:11:25 <wumpus> * were called bitcoin_nl not bitcoin_nl_NL
410 2011-10-23 09:12:05 <wumpus> but this brings it more in line with the 'usual'
411 2011-10-23 09:12:36 <tcatm> I wonder if I can force transifex to use xx_XX templates for files instead
412 2011-10-23 09:12:52 <tcatm> or can we generate bitcoin.qrc from a template?
413 2011-10-23 09:13:16 <wumpus> (though I had obviously seen en_EN and en_US before :p)
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415 2011-10-23 09:13:54 <wumpus> yes that'd be better
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417 2011-10-23 09:14:03 <wumpus> to generate the translations part of it with a script
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424 2011-10-23 09:15:04 <wumpus> however it shouldn't generate the entire file from a template otherwise you cannot edit it anymore with qt creator
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426 2011-10-23 09:16:34 <wumpus> but if you no longer want the translations in the resource file it's even simpler :p
427 2011-10-23 09:17:14 <tcatm> how?
428 2011-10-23 09:17:17 <wumpus> in that case you do need to change the lookup logic though, currently it looks in the resource file only
429 2011-10-23 09:17:34 <wumpus> well just cut it out there
430 2011-10-23 09:17:36 <tcatm> I'd like to have a simple system where I can easily merge new translations from transifex
431 2011-10-23 09:18:08 <wumpus> but that only moves the problem of maing sure the translations end up somewhere where bitcoin can find them
432 2011-10-23 09:18:53 <wumpus> well what about a python script that requests the contents of src/locale/qt/*.ts and updates the qrc file?
433 2011-10-23 09:20:36 <wumpus> or maybe even downloads the ts files from transifex and places them in src/locale/qt
434 2011-10-23 09:21:05 <tcatm> there's already a script for that: tx pull -a :)
435 2011-10-23 09:21:27 <tcatm> not all of them have the territory suffix, though
436 2011-10-23 09:22:08 <wumpus> afaik no territiory suffix is the same as xx_XX
437 2011-10-23 09:22:32 <wumpus> ah not really
438 2011-10-23 09:22:50 <wumpus> it was not for nb_NO... :/
439 2011-10-23 09:23:02 <wumpus> you really need a territory suffix
440 2011-10-23 09:25:11 <wumpus> we need to chang the lookup logic
441 2011-10-23 09:25:45 <tcatm> how do other big projects do it?
442 2011-10-23 09:25:54 <wumpus> https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Translating
443 2011-10-23 09:26:03 <wumpus> _TERRITORY is optional
444 2011-10-23 09:26:07 <wumpus> fuck I didn't know that
445 2011-10-23 09:27:20 <wumpus> so let's change the logic to: first look for _lang_TERRITORY, then for _lang, then fall back to default
446 2011-10-23 09:27:50 <tcatm> sounds good
447 2011-10-23 09:28:17 <wumpus> then again that's a code change so I'll do it some time after the 0.5.0 freeze
448 2011-10-23 09:29:00 <tcatm> so can you revert the renaming of language files for now so it stays in sync with transifex?
449 2011-10-23 09:30:24 <wumpus> i guess so... :/
450 2011-10-23 09:30:55 <wumpus> does github provide a way to remove an entire commit?
451 2011-10-23 09:31:31 <tcatm> nope, you can only add new commits that restore old behaviour
452 2011-10-23 09:31:40 <wumpus> fuck
453 2011-10-23 09:32:26 <tcatm> (well, I could force HEAD to point to the old commit but that will screw up for everyone who already pulled the changes)
454 2011-10-23 09:32:26 <wumpus> an automatic way to generate a reverse-commit would be great, like the wikipedia revert
455 2011-10-23 09:32:36 <tcatm> git revert
456 2011-10-23 09:32:38 <wumpus> I don't feel like messing it up even more
457 2011-10-23 09:32:51 <tcatm> or git revert $HASH_OF_COMMIT
458 2011-10-23 09:33:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan * r3a30f34 / (12 files in 3 dirs):
459 2011-10-23 09:33:29 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Revert "translation fixes"
460 2011-10-23 09:33:30 <CIA-101> bitcoin: This reverts commit f86ecd4a062b7f6515208c217f6405e47fa742f5. - http://git.io/9qrHvA
461 2011-10-23 09:33:30 <wumpus> done...
462 2011-10-23 09:33:42 <wumpus> someone else can do the translation stuff, I won't touch it anymore with a ten foot pole :P
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464 2011-10-23 09:34:51 <tcatm> yes, it's tricky. I already regret setting up the transifex account even though it works really well so far :)
465 2011-10-23 09:35:15 <wumpus> myself I've always used computers in english
466 2011-10-23 09:35:21 <wumpus> so it's all new to me
467 2011-10-23 09:35:38 <tcatm> same here
468 2011-10-23 09:36:00 <wumpus> most people here in the netherlands do use the dutch translations but I've always found translated programs.. annoying in a way
469 2011-10-23 09:36:04 <tcatm> and I'm a really annoyed that I can't just do LC_MESSAGES=nb_NO ./bitcoin-qt to test translations :/
470 2011-10-23 09:36:19 <wumpus> why not?
471 2011-10-23 09:36:30 <wumpus> qt ignores lc_messages?
472 2011-10-23 09:36:38 <tcatm> no, it exists with an errormessage
473 2011-10-23 09:36:47 <tcatm> exits*
474 2011-10-23 09:36:49 <wumpus> shouldn't you add .utf8?
475 2011-10-23 09:36:56 <wumpus> or is that only for LANG
476 2011-10-23 09:37:25 <tcatm> doesn't work either
477 2011-10-23 09:37:26 <wumpus> some time ago I had to dive in the Qt source code to find out how it really found out what the system locale was, but it's heavily platform specific
478 2011-10-23 09:37:46 <genjix> hey tcatm, can we put http://conference.bitgroups.org on bitcoin.org?
479 2011-10-23 09:37:46 <tcatm> I think it is missing some system translations or something
480 2011-10-23 09:38:01 <wumpus> export LANG=nl_NL.utf8 works for me at least
481 2011-10-23 09:38:02 <genjix> can use this logo: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=5148;type=avatar
482 2011-10-23 09:38:29 <tcatm> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what(): locale::facet::_S_create_c_locale name not valid
483 2011-10-23 09:38:35 <wumpus> it complains about a locale not being supported by the C library, but that's probably some package I'm missing
484 2011-10-23 09:38:37 <tcatm> with nl_NL.utf8
485 2011-10-23 09:38:56 <wumpus> huh that's a boost error...
486 2011-10-23 09:38:59 <wumpus> not qt
487 2011-10-23 09:40:39 <tcatm> can you prepare a pull request to change the lookup logic? I don't know much about qt...
488 2011-10-23 09:40:43 <wumpus> why does it work here?
489 2011-10-23 09:40:55 <wumpus> this doesn't have anything to do with the lookup logic
490 2011-10-23 09:41:12 <tcatm> probably because your system has nl_NL locales installed
491 2011-10-23 09:41:27 <tcatm> I was referring to: 11:14 < wumpus> so let's change the logic to: first look for _lang_TERRITORY, then for _lang, then fall back to default
492 2011-10-23 09:41:28 <wumpus> yes, but changing the look up logic for *Qt* doesn't change that
493 2011-10-23 09:41:51 <wumpus> well I can do it for any language
494 2011-10-23 09:42:25 <wumpus> I'm sure I don't have the Russian locale installed and can still run bitcoin in that language
495 2011-10-23 09:43:01 <wumpus> I do get this warning: (process:31676): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library.
496 2011-10-23 09:43:01 <wumpus> Using the fallback 'C' locale.
497 2011-10-23 09:43:04 <wumpus> but not an error
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499 2011-10-23 09:44:34 <tcatm> seems to be a bug in boost: https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/4688
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503 2011-10-23 09:47:32 <wumpus> at least they fixed it in newer versions, I wonder if there is a way to tell Qt to use a locale that passes by boost
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510 2011-10-23 09:55:30 <chmod755> ;;pgp auth
511 2011-10-23 09:55:31 <gribble> (gpg auth <nick>) -- Initiate authentication for user <nick>. You must have registered a GPG key with the bot for this to work. You will be given a random passphrase to clearsign with your key, and submit to the bot with the 'verify' command. Your passphrase will expire within 10 minutes.
512 2011-10-23 09:55:36 <chmod755> ;;pgp auth chmod755
513 2011-10-23 09:55:37 <gribble> Request successful for user chmod755, hostmask chmod755!~affilitat@unaffiliated/chmod755. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:00988257a69b0c62487b7c612e53e2e7f065f075f52309929533a598
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521 2011-10-23 10:04:19 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rba936d41c8d9 /src/storage/ (postgresql_blockchain.cpp postgresql_storage.cpp): bits extraction/compaction util functions - code reuse!
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529 2011-10-23 10:13:35 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Con Kolivas * r8c63061eaa39 cgminer/ (adl.c main.c miner.h): Allow a fixed speed difference between memory and GPU clock speed that will change memory speed when GPU speed is changed in autotune mode.
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549 2011-10-23 10:33:56 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r8e5128ee2d0d / (7 files in 3 dirs): src/storage/postgresql/ sub-directory
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581 2011-10-23 11:32:56 <SomeoneWeird> I wanna start a project todo with btc (ofc), but don't know what todo, suggestions/ideas anyone?
582 2011-10-23 11:33:29 wasabi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
583 2011-10-23 11:35:39 <wumpus> I'd recommend choosing a project to make it easier for (web) merchants to accept btc
584 2011-10-23 11:37:32 <SomeoneWeird> mmm
585 2011-10-23 11:38:24 <genjix> SomeoneWeird: you want to help proofread the BIPs
586 2011-10-23 11:38:34 <SomeoneWeird> BIPs?
587 2011-10-23 11:39:25 <genjix> Bitcoin Improvement Proposals
588 2011-10-23 11:39:26 <tcatm> or translate bitcoin, improve the webdesign
589 2011-10-23 11:39:54 <SomeoneWeird> can't translate, what webdesigns?
590 2011-10-23 11:39:58 <genjix> tcatm: did you see my message above about the conference?
591 2011-10-23 11:40:02 <SomeoneWeird> and I suppose genjix, links?
592 2011-10-23 11:40:11 <tcatm> genjix: probably not
593 2011-10-23 11:40:11 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals
594 2011-10-23 11:40:46 <genjix> tcatm: can we put the conference http://conference.bitgroups.org on bitcoin.org?
595 2011-10-23 11:40:55 <genjix> we can use this logo: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=5148;type=avatar
596 2011-10-23 11:41:22 <genjix> a lot of work has gone into organising that. now we need to swell the attendees
597 2011-10-23 11:44:03 <tcatm> can you get ACKs from other people involved with bitcoin.org (gavin, jgarzik, ...) and provide a short text (about 50..100 words) that ends with something like "Visit <http://...> for more information"?
598 2011-10-23 11:44:27 <genjix> ok
599 2011-10-23 11:44:43 <genjix> the best place is the mailing list, right?
600 2011-10-23 11:45:09 <tcatm> I think just CC'ing everyone involved will be enough
601 2011-10-23 11:45:13 <genjix> ok
602 2011-10-23 11:45:17 <genjix> thanks
603 2011-10-23 11:45:34 <genjix> also, let me know if you need a letter or something to get a day off if you want to attend
604 2011-10-23 11:45:48 Xunie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
605 2011-10-23 11:46:56 <tcatm> well, the problem is I'm already involved in organizing a local event on the same weekend
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607 2011-10-23 11:47:45 <genjix> k
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609 2011-10-23 11:49:14 <terrytibbs> zhoutong: Your connection seems pretty... spotty! Have you considered a bouncer?
610 2011-10-23 11:49:39 <genjix> zhoutong: or use irssi inside screen on a vps :p
611 2011-10-23 11:51:00 <terrytibbs> terrytibbs: or use irssi inside tmux on a vps!
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614 2011-10-23 11:53:26 <wumpus> lol
615 2011-10-23 11:54:25 <tcatm> irssi inside tmux inside screen inside nx :)
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617 2011-10-23 11:55:19 <wumpus> tcatm: https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/tree/translation_lookup_logic
618 2011-10-23 11:55:41 <wumpus> that's my final word on translations, if I still get it wrong then I give up :)
619 2011-10-23 11:56:53 <nathan7> tmux always gave me problems
620 2011-10-23 11:57:08 <SomeoneWeird> INCEPTIOOOON
621 2011-10-23 11:57:14 <tcatm> wumpus: thanks! :)
622 2011-10-23 11:57:15 <SomeoneWeird> SHELLCEPTION
623 2011-10-23 11:57:22 <AAA_awright> MONEY WITHIN MONEY
624 2011-10-23 11:57:26 <AAA_awright> within money
625 2011-10-23 11:57:34 <AAA_awright> within... money
626 2011-10-23 11:57:47 <AAA_awright> and it all vanishes in the blink of an eye
627 2011-10-23 11:57:59 <AAA_awright> ;_;
628 2011-10-23 11:58:02 <SomeoneWeird> lol
629 2011-10-23 11:58:05 <SomeoneWeird> awww
630 2011-10-23 11:58:06 <SomeoneWeird> right
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634 2011-10-23 12:08:18 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rdfe6f7317959 / (bitcoin.sql src/storage/postgresql/postgresql_blockchain.cpp): No more block_status.
635 2011-10-23 12:08:19 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r6b799ef695bb / (bitcoin.sql src/storage/postgresql/postgresql_blockchain.cpp): Avoid reloading data in validate loop
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654 2011-10-23 12:35:51 <talpan> hello, i'm having a hard time compiling bitcoin qt under ubuntu 11.10 after a fresh install. the error i get is: /usr/include/db_cxx.h:59:22: error iostream.h not found
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656 2011-10-23 12:37:45 <sipa> talpan: you have all dependencies installed?
657 2011-10-23 12:38:28 <talpan> as far as i know, i already tried various things that i had googled.
658 2011-10-23 12:38:31 <sipa> in particular libdb4.8++-dev ?
659 2011-10-23 12:39:15 <talpan> do i need 4.8 or isn't 4.7 enough?
660 2011-10-23 12:39:27 <sipa> 4.7 is enough
661 2011-10-23 12:39:46 <talpan> additionally i can only find libdb4.7-dev not libdb4.7-dev, is there a difference?
662 2011-10-23 12:39:55 <talpan> *libdb4.7++
663 2011-10-23 12:40:06 <sipa> yes, without ++ is for C
664 2011-10-23 12:40:10 <sipa> with ++ is for C++
665 2011-10-23 12:41:25 <talpan> mhm okay, i download the source and try to compile it, since it isn't in the 11.10 repos
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668 2011-10-23 12:45:25 <wumpus> iostream.h, that *should* be part of c++
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670 2011-10-23 12:46:59 <wumpus> I somehow don't think this is a dbcxx version issue
671 2011-10-23 12:50:27 <talpan> i think this could be an issue with ubuntu 11.10 since i can't install libdb++
672 2011-10-23 12:50:32 <talpan> weird
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674 2011-10-23 12:52:04 <SomeoneWeird> sure it isn't in the repos talpan?
675 2011-10-23 12:52:19 <talpan> http://packages.ubuntu.com/oneiric/allpackages yes
676 2011-10-23 12:52:31 <talpan> double checked it with the package list
677 2011-10-23 12:53:10 <talpan> but it is in the ubuntu natty (.04) repos
678 2011-10-23 12:53:58 <SomeoneWeird> apt-cache search libdb4.8 | grep dev ?
679 2011-10-23 12:54:03 <SomeoneWeird> :P
680 2011-10-23 12:54:13 <SomeoneWeird> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/amd64/libdb4.8
681 2011-10-23 12:54:20 <SomeoneWeird> just the dev package thats not?
682 2011-10-23 12:54:21 <wumpus> talpan: the error message refers to /usr/include/db_cxx.h being installed, so somehow it is installed
683 2011-10-23 12:54:24 <talpan> i need libdb4.x++
684 2011-10-23 12:54:38 <talpan> weird
685 2011-10-23 12:55:01 <talpan> currently i have libdb4.7-dev installed
686 2011-10-23 12:55:22 <talpan> ill test it with 4.8
687 2011-10-23 12:55:25 <genjix> tcatm: kthx. i sent the email.
688 2011-10-23 12:55:33 <genjix> you sould have one too
689 2011-10-23 12:55:48 <genjix> talpan: install libdb++-dev
690 2011-10-23 12:56:07 <talpan> thx :)
691 2011-10-23 12:56:11 <genjix> nw
692 2011-10-23 12:56:50 <talpan> it is compiling :)
693 2011-10-23 12:56:51 <genjix> talpan: also google "genjix ubuntu bitcoin" for the other needed packages
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695 2011-10-23 12:58:14 <talpan> that was the only problem, i've compiled bitcoin many times before, but the upgrade to .10 did screw it up :)
696 2011-10-23 12:58:21 <genjix> same here
697 2011-10-23 12:58:38 <genjix> actually i was using oneiric for a while
698 2011-10-23 12:58:44 <genjix> g++ 4.6 is super cool
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706 2011-10-23 13:12:49 <wumpus> why does github insist on nuking < and > characters in pull request descriptions
707 2011-10-23 13:13:42 <sipa> i suppose because it uses those for its own markup language
708 2011-10-23 13:13:55 <wumpus> bleh
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747 2011-10-23 14:37:49 <nanotube> genjix: re conference: thanks for invite, but eur is a long way away for me :P
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753 2011-10-23 14:47:21 <genjix> nanotube: ok :/
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970 2011-10-23 20:56:44 <Diablo-D3> deepbit, slush, btcguild, ars, abc, btc.lc, bitclockers, nmcbit, btcmine, emc
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1008 2011-10-23 22:03:33 <Diablo-D3> current top ten: current top ten: deepbit, slush, ars, btcguild, abc, btc.lc, bitclockers, nmcbit, btcmine, emc
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1011 2011-10-23 22:05:02 <imsaguy> is there a ddos still going on?
1012 2011-10-23 22:05:07 <Diablo-D3> no
1013 2011-10-23 22:05:43 <imsaguy> oh
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1016 2011-10-23 22:13:10 <Diablo-D3> warning: deepbit now has half the network hashrate.
1017 2011-10-23 22:13:21 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1018 2011-10-23 22:13:38 <gmaxwell> :-/
1019 2011-10-23 22:13:47 <gmaxwell> fuck, we're back to this crap again.
1020 2011-10-23 22:14:16 <gmaxwell> And no one bothered writing automated shenanigans detection yet?
1021 2011-10-23 22:14:23 <freewil> i guess bitcoin never the solved the problem of masses being idiots
1022 2011-10-23 22:14:34 <gmaxwell> In other news, eligius is back up.. though only as of a few minutes, so it doesn't have real hashrate yet.
1023 2011-10-23 22:15:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well I left a reply on the deepbit thread
1024 2011-10-23 22:15:15 <Diablo-D3> so a few people should jump
1025 2011-10-23 22:15:27 <makomk> I suspect a lot of BTCGuild users may be migrating over to Deepbit...
1026 2011-10-23 22:15:36 <Diablo-D3> makomk: they should be migrating to ars
1027 2011-10-23 22:15:43 <Diablo-D3> ars is the largest no fee pool
1028 2011-10-23 22:15:47 <gmaxwell> It was bad timing for eligius to be down.
1029 2011-10-23 22:15:53 knotwork has joined
1030 2011-10-23 22:16:04 <Diablo-D3> ars is now the third largest pool too
1031 2011-10-23 22:17:35 <gmaxwell> If people are looking for zero fee pools, as mentioned eligius is up again. Also eclipsemc.com has a healthy enough rate, zero fees, score based and has merged mining (like eligius)
1032 2011-10-23 22:17:54 <Diablo-D3> abcpool is also zero fee as is bitcoins.lc
1033 2011-10-23 22:18:37 <gmaxwell> perhaps the stickies should exclude #1 or #1-#N ? :)
1034 2011-10-23 22:18:48 <Diablo-D3> lol
1035 2011-10-23 22:18:52 <dikidera> diablo tell me
1036 2011-10-23 22:18:57 <Diablo-D3> dikidera: what
1037 2011-10-23 22:19:14 <dikidera> why does the 4way algorithm of cgminer uhm..check only 32 nonces on each loop?
1038 2011-10-23 22:19:25 <dikidera> and the same ones at that
1039 2011-10-23 22:19:38 <Diablo-D3> dunno, ask con
1040 2011-10-23 22:19:52 <dikidera> I mean as far as i can read the code...it looks broken to me
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1043 2011-10-23 22:23:24 <gmaxwell> wow btcguild has only lost ~100 GH since they went uber-fees.
1044 2011-10-23 22:23:25 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1045 2011-10-23 22:23:43 <dikidera> no
1046 2011-10-23 22:23:48 <dikidera> btcguild lost 1th
1047 2011-10-23 22:23:54 <dikidera> i still remember when they were over 2
1048 2011-10-23 22:24:01 AAA_awright__ is now known as AAA_awright
1049 2011-10-23 22:24:11 <Diablo-D3> they were never fist
1050 2011-10-23 22:24:12 <Diablo-D3> *first
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1053 2011-10-23 22:24:22 <Diablo-D3> deepbit has had first since it got it
1054 2011-10-23 22:24:36 <gmaxwell> They were at 1TH last week before the switch, the whole network has lost rate.
1055 2011-10-23 22:24:38 <Diablo-D3> it was deepbit, slush, btcguild for awhile
1056 2011-10-23 22:24:48 <Diablo-D3> then slush dropped to third
1057 2011-10-23 22:24:55 <Diablo-D3> and then btcguild dropped to fourth
1058 2011-10-23 22:25:08 <Diablo-D3> so its deepbit, slush, ars, btcguild
1059 2011-10-23 22:25:12 TheZimm has joined
1060 2011-10-23 22:25:19 <Diablo-D3> and if ars keeps climbing like this, slush'll lose #2 again
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1064 2011-10-23 22:29:19 <Eliel> well, now that eligius is back, ars is going to lose some of their hashrate.
1065 2011-10-23 22:29:30 <Diablo-D3> heh, btcguild is now down to 890
1066 2011-10-23 22:30:34 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
1067 2011-10-23 22:30:34 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":3.26,"low":2.95,"avg":3.093004774,"vwap":3.085294059,"vol":39713,"last_all":3.1225,"last_local":3.1225,"last":3.1225,"buy":3.13055,"sell":3.18511}}
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1079 2011-10-23 22:44:07 <casascius> i'm wondering, are there a lot of nonstandard transactions being held up by eligius? magicaltux was saying last night that the reason somebody's withdrawal wasn't going thru was cause of eligius, and oddly I have had a huge spike of physical bitcoin orders today with many of them leaving what
1080 2011-10-23 22:44:23 <casascius> appears to be real contact info, but none of them paying. seemed very odd. but would make sense if they all relied on a single payment processor which depends on eligius. (most of the orders were russian)
1081 2011-10-23 22:44:37 <gmaxwell> casascius: thats not reasonableâ eligius doesn't solve many blocks.
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1084 2011-10-23 22:45:14 <gmaxwell> oh I think magicaltux has some deal with eligius to get zero fee processing.
1085 2011-10-23 22:45:19 <gmaxwell> and eligius has been down.
1086 2011-10-23 22:45:24 <gmaxwell> (it's back up now)
1087 2011-10-23 22:45:42 <da2ce7> ahh. hence the free hosting...
1088 2011-10-23 22:45:44 <da2ce7> lol
1089 2011-10-23 22:46:01 <gmaxwell> Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
1090 2011-10-23 22:46:06 <Eliel> yep :)
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1092 2011-10-23 22:48:05 <casascius> It seems as though with a little careful way to construct transaction outputs, one can avoid fees virtually all of the time... I lately never pay fees on anything, I wonder if my transaction load is unusual.
1093 2011-10-23 22:48:17 <gmaxwell> casascius: Correct.
1094 2011-10-23 22:48:20 <casascius> i load those 1 BTC coins by the 50 and 100 at a time, and never have to pay a fee
1095 2011-10-23 22:48:20 zhoutong has joined
1096 2011-10-23 22:48:56 <gmaxwell> Bitcoind is not all that careful though... and depending on your wallet composition you can end up constantly recycling change which results in fees.
1097 2011-10-23 22:49:06 <gmaxwell> casascius: Are you using sendmay to load your coins?
1098 2011-10-23 22:49:11 <gmaxwell> er sendmany
1099 2011-10-23 22:49:13 <casascius> yep, i am doing sendmany
1100 2011-10-23 22:49:23 <casascius> and that's just it I suppose...the methodology I use minimizes wallet recycling
1101 2011-10-23 22:49:47 TheZimm has joined
1102 2011-10-23 22:49:52 <casascius> it sort of happens by accident due to the way i use paper wallets for my btc
1103 2011-10-23 22:50:03 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1104 2011-10-23 22:50:21 <gmaxwell> Yep. Though mtgox should _also_ use send many.. they should delay each transaction for 30 seconds or so and batch up all the parallel transactions.
1105 2011-10-23 22:50:39 <gmaxwell> But IIRC we haven't even gotten [Tycho] to use sendmany. :-/
1106 2011-10-23 22:51:10 <gmaxwell> It would be nice it bitcoin could do that batching for you, but the API returns the transaction ID.
1107 2011-10-23 22:51:25 <casascius> i receive all my btc to an offline wallet. once in a while, i will go to the offline wallet, and create a single sendmany that aggregates them all together, and outputs them in 7-10 useful-sized chunks that I load onto a doublesided Bitaddress.org paperwallet (14 addresses)
1108 2011-10-23 22:51:34 <gmaxwell> For batching it would need to return a handle that you can query to get the txnid later.
1109 2011-10-23 22:51:57 <casascius> and then when it's time to laod coins, i will only scan in what I need, and load coins from that. in virtually all cases, i will never be reusing fresh change, and that is why I guess I never pay fees
1110 2011-10-23 22:52:10 <gmaxwell> Yep.
1111 2011-10-23 22:52:25 dbe has joined
1112 2011-10-23 22:52:28 <gmaxwell> bitcoind makes almost no effort to avoid instantly recycling change once it has one confirm.
1113 2011-10-23 22:52:41 <gmaxwell> but it your case, everything is nicely delayed.
1114 2011-10-23 22:52:56 <casascius> that makes sense....and i spend my wallet down to zero each time (if i have "change", I will send it to a fresh paper bitcoin address)
1115 2011-10-23 22:53:13 <gmaxwell> All the coin selection stuff was written prior to the anti-dos fees.. so you can't blame it.
1116 2011-10-23 22:53:33 <casascius> i went and bought a handheld Wasp 2D barcode scanner for this purpose so that makes it really convenient.... a $400 expense that most people aren't likely to incur just to save a fee or two...but i suppose i'm the paper wallet fanatic
1117 2011-10-23 22:53:54 <casascius> that said, when you ahve one of those, dealing in paper bitcoins is really easy
1118 2011-10-23 22:54:37 <casascius> i assume there has got to be some sort of QR code reader for webcam out there that types on keyboard? i mean i wonder how else do all qr-code lovers type their qr codes
1119 2011-10-23 22:55:30 <gmaxwell> yes, but the wedges seem to all be expensive.
1120 2011-10-23 22:55:51 <gmaxwell> normall people use software solutions w/ regular cameras.
1121 2011-10-23 22:56:20 <casascius> SOmehow I suspect that it would be possible to still spam the system... I mean if I can do free transactions without limit as long as I let a few days elapse between each one, then it means one could spam the network if they simply took 50 BTC, split it between 5000 addresses, and ping ponged 0.01 BTC as long as each bitcoin only moved once every couple days
1122 2011-10-23 22:57:27 <casascius> if true, that sort of spam is scalable to any amount
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1124 2011-10-23 22:57:51 <gmaxwell> casascius: your rate limited by the ping pongy...
1125 2011-10-23 22:58:11 <gmaxwell> each 0.01 would have to sit still for 100 days.
1126 2011-10-23 22:58:26 <casascius> why 100 days? is that dependent on the value? (i.e. 1/value)
1127 2011-10-23 22:58:28 ej__ has joined
1128 2011-10-23 22:58:59 <gmaxwell> The priority calculation for a txn is sum_over_all_inputs(value * confirms)/tx_data_size
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1131 2011-10-23 22:59:15 <gmaxwell> And to not have to pay a fee that number must be at least 51m.
1132 2011-10-23 22:59:31 <casascius> so then if I had 5000 BTC and split them up into 1 BTC chunks then it would work? (I suppose that raises the bar some)
1133 2011-10-23 22:59:31 <gmaxwell> (value is in 1e-8 units)
1134 2011-10-23 22:59:46 <gmaxwell> Yes, increasing the amount of coin increases the volume you can produce.
1135 2011-10-23 23:00:14 <gmaxwell> But thats the point of the system: in order to do the attack you must have a lot of coins tied up in the attack, and it doesn't really matter how you split them up.
1136 2011-10-23 23:00:15 <casascius> i suppose if people started to refuse to confirm those transactions, then that woudl put a stop to it
1137 2011-10-23 23:00:38 <casascius> i suppose iw ould have to tie up coins, but if they are coins one already is sitting on anyway, they aren't losing any utility
1138 2011-10-23 23:00:45 <gmaxwell> Right, so say you did ammass 5000 btc for attacking ... eventually we could just greylist those coins.
1139 2011-10-23 23:00:47 <casascius> (not that I'm contemplating the attack by any means)
1140 2011-10-23 23:01:04 <casascius> Miners would just refuse to include those transactions into blocks
1141 2011-10-23 23:01:35 <gmaxwell> And presumably if you've pooled up 5000 btc you actually care something about the health of bitcoin. :)
1142 2011-10-23 23:01:41 <gmaxwell> Even if you're not currently spending them. :)
1143 2011-10-23 23:02:09 ej_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1144 2011-10-23 23:02:37 <gmaxwell> 5000 BTC would let you sustain 5000 TXN per day... we can technically handle that in a block or two, thought it would be kind ugly.
1145 2011-10-23 23:03:08 <casascius> i mean if i wanted to be a bitcoinexpress and do the attack to create a motivation for the developers to do something about it, i suppose that would be a scenario where one could attack while "caring" about bitcoin
1146 2011-10-23 23:03:31 <gmaxwell> You'd probably need around 200k btc to really start breaking things with the current rules.
1147 2011-10-23 23:05:44 <gmaxwell> I don't think I've heard any anti-DOS suggestions that were actually any better.
1148 2011-10-23 23:05:54 <gmaxwell> Mostly we see complaints that what we have is too agressive.
1149 2011-10-23 23:06:18 <gmaxwell> (if it were possible to get a small amount of bitcoin through cpu mining which could be used to pay fees even those complaints would probably go away)
1150 2011-10-23 23:08:21 <casascius> i suppose i agree - ultimately, the most powerful antidos would be some way that allows miners and node operators to react and reject threats
1151 2011-10-23 23:09:40 <casascius> that's probably way down the road though
1152 2011-10-23 23:09:59 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately the privacy properties of bitcoin make this hard.. e.g. every attack txn uses a new address.. the attack funds are frequently cycled through bank like sites.
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1156 2011-10-23 23:11:53 <casascius> if a future bitcoin client had a means to accept a signed interpreted validation script from some party trusted to manage it, that would be evolved enough to handle it (similar to how antivirus apps "phone home" to get the latest signatures)
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1158 2011-10-23 23:12:17 <casascius> presumably that's centralization, but by then perhaps there'd be as many bitcoin clients as we have antivirus vendors today
1159 2011-10-23 23:12:59 <casascius> obviously hoping we don't need that any time soon
1160 2011-10-23 23:13:30 <gmaxwell> That doesn't solve it in any case. How are you going to identify the txn involved in the attack pattern I described above?
1161 2011-10-23 23:14:04 <gmaxwell> The attacker will make his traffic look maximally indistinguishable from normal traffic.
1162 2011-10-23 23:14:35 <casascius> because it would be a transaction based on coins that are within set {...}... and if they washed them through a bank, that would give the operator time to react (since they already have to wait some time like a day before pingponging each coin)
1163 2011-10-23 23:14:42 Moonies has quit (Quit: quack)
1164 2011-10-23 23:14:49 <gmaxwell> The best we can do is make it costly enough (in terms of fees or coin laying idle) that the attacker would go broke long before the system would be disrupted, so he doesn't even try.
1165 2011-10-23 23:15:44 <casascius> right now if i wanted to put $15k USD, I could have 5000 coins (well, I already have 5000 coins of my own, that's besides the point)... and if they only cycled once a day, i wouldn't lose any fees nor use of my coins since i'm already sitting on them
1166 2011-10-23 23:16:11 <gmaxwell> You also wouldn't be noticed by bitcoin users.
1167 2011-10-23 23:16:32 <gmaxwell> (though you might see a few people here notice)
1168 2011-10-23 23:16:41 <casascius> i would just be filling up their hard disk is all
1169 2011-10-23 23:16:56 <gmaxwell> fairly slowly, however.. about additional 1mb/day.
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1171 2011-10-23 23:17:28 <gmaxwell> And those transactions would be prunable, so it would probably just motivate someone implementing that in the official client.
1172 2011-10-23 23:17:55 <casascius> Which ultimately woudl improve bitcoin, not hinder it.
1173 2011-10-23 23:18:35 <gmaxwell> Sure, though we don't need an attack to get that. I'll be needed eventually anyways.
1174 2011-10-23 23:19:21 <gmaxwell> If anyone gave a #@$@ about the alt chains it might be fun to attack them to get them to develop the software. (evil laugh)
1175 2011-10-23 23:19:41 <gmaxwell> The trouble NMC had with hash rate swinging got them to build merged mining.
1176 2011-10-23 23:19:43 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: whats that one cpu only chain
1177 2011-10-23 23:20:12 <gmaxwell> trixyloops or something
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1179 2011-10-23 23:20:35 <Diablo-D3> I should gpu ot.
1180 2011-10-23 23:20:36 <gmaxwell> Although.. it only needs 128k of memory per instance, so it's hardly asic/gpu incompatible.
1181 2011-10-23 23:20:58 * Diablo-D3 is a fucking bastard of epic proportions
1182 2011-10-23 23:21:07 <casascius> sum_over_all_inputs(value * confirms) / data size, units are satoshis, confirms, and bytes/kilobytes?
1183 2011-10-23 23:21:26 Sedra has joined
1184 2011-10-23 23:21:28 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I mean hell, Im writing a codec to troll xiph with.
1185 2011-10-23 23:21:29 <gmaxwell> casascius satoshis, confirms, and bytes.
1186 2011-10-23 23:21:29 <casascius> must >= 5.1e6
1187 2011-10-23 23:21:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it doesnt actually work, but at least Im trying.
1188 2011-10-23 23:22:03 <Diablo-D3> casascius... why does that nick sound familiar
1189 2011-10-23 23:22:39 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3:
1190 2011-10-23 23:22:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: https://www.casascius.com/
1191 2011-10-23 23:22:52 <Diablo-D3> oh right! the coin guy!
1192 2011-10-23 23:22:57 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: becauze hes the one selling gambling tokens as bitcoins
1193 2011-10-23 23:23:18 <Diablo-D3> casascius: you should give coins to influencial bitcoin people.
1194 2011-10-23 23:23:39 <casascius> gambling tokens would be cool...i considered bitcoin poker chips...these are more like carwash tokens
1195 2011-10-23 23:23:53 <neofutur> interesting question on stackexchange : http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1708/capabilities-of-bitcoins-and-their-place-in-the-future
1196 2011-10-23 23:23:53 <JFK911> vegas casinos dont have rfid metal tokens yet?
1197 2011-10-23 23:23:54 <Diablo-D3> casascius: so we can show them off to people to generate business
1198 2011-10-23 23:24:04 <neofutur> any expert here to answer this ?
1199 2011-10-23 23:24:05 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: oh they have for years
1200 2011-10-23 23:24:08 <JFK911> the coin idea is really cool
1201 2011-10-23 23:24:12 <casascius> diablo-d3: actually, I am interested, I generally want to keep the BTC though, anybody considered "influential" i'd sell them to at face value
1202 2011-10-23 23:24:16 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: yeah plastic ones have been for a decade
1203 2011-10-23 23:24:30 <casascius> in reasonable quantities of course (they take time to make)
1204 2011-10-23 23:24:33 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: the high value ones are all metal at some places
1205 2011-10-23 23:24:38 <JFK911> i found an rfid on a packet of socks
1206 2011-10-23 23:24:51 <Diablo-D3> like remember that time someone stole a shitload of high value poker chips from vegas?
1207 2011-10-23 23:24:56 <Diablo-D3> they were metal coins
1208 2011-10-23 23:25:09 <Diablo-D3> casascius: even just 1 of the 1btc ones?
1209 2011-10-23 23:25:17 Turingi has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1210 2011-10-23 23:25:30 <JFK911> well for samples/hype they dont need to have actual bitcoin sticker on them
1211 2011-10-23 23:25:35 <casascius> i would probably do 1x1btc for free, but would rather give a handful
1212 2011-10-23 23:25:41 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: unless I want to photograph it
1213 2011-10-23 23:25:52 eoss has joined
1214 2011-10-23 23:25:52 <JFK911> hes got some beautiful photos already
1215 2011-10-23 23:26:05 <Diablo-D3> yes, but I have a blog. with a huge readership.
1216 2011-10-23 23:26:07 <JFK911> i think he said you can use them too
1217 2011-10-23 23:26:21 <Diablo-D3> and Im the author of diablominer. which makes me awesome.
1218 2011-10-23 23:26:34 <casascius> maybe what i should do is create "redemption codes" kind of how mtgox says "we want to give you a free yubikey, order and use code xxxxxx when you check out"
1219 2011-10-23 23:26:45 <JFK911> i havent seen a photo of a broken one yet
1220 2011-10-23 23:26:47 <Diablo-D3> casascius: maybe
1221 2011-10-23 23:27:03 <casascius> cause i'd be more than happy to give a half dozen of the 25btc coins to quite a few people, but would prefer not to give away 150btc
1222 2011-10-23 23:27:08 <gmaxwell> casascius: you need someone to build you a robot for assembly. Your current prices are a hinderance for using them as a btc promotion tool.
1223 2011-10-23 23:27:16 <casascius> gmaxwell: 100% agreed
1224 2011-10-23 23:27:34 <JFK911> how many production steps do you have
1225 2011-10-23 23:27:38 <casascius> and it sucks, cause i can blow a whole saturday just putting together a few hundred coins
1226 2011-10-23 23:28:02 <gmaxwell> E.g. I'd like to go throw a hand full of btc in geocaches around me, but at 30% overhead on the 1btc coins â I'd rather write keys on paper and be able to put out more coins for the same spend.
1227 2011-10-23 23:28:36 <casascius> if you're going to geocache, putting the coins on paper is almost better - you can take them back much later if no one cares to collect them
1228 2011-10-23 23:28:50 <gmaxwell> Thats true too.
1229 2011-10-23 23:28:58 <casascius> a coin on paper, with a 1 btc "token" glued to it, wouldn't be bad (in other words, the 1 btc coin I have, with no hologram or key)
1230 2011-10-23 23:29:16 <casascius> i would part with just the physical coins for pretty cheap for promotional purposes...they are easy to box and ship
1231 2011-10-23 23:29:25 marf_away has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1232 2011-10-23 23:29:26 <casascius> especially in bulk
1233 2011-10-23 23:29:32 orange-hand has joined
1234 2011-10-23 23:29:32 <gmaxwell> Though introducing people to the concept of your tokens would be good too. ... hm. thats a reasonable half step.
1235 2011-10-23 23:29:46 <casascius> i got like 8000+ of them left
1236 2011-10-23 23:29:46 <JFK911> casascius: you wouldnt want to put an orange sticker or something on to make it obvious they werent bitcoins?
1237 2011-10-23 23:30:17 <casascius> possibly, but the point of shipping the coins in bulk was to get out of stickering them one by one. if i'm going to sticker them, might as well sticker them with a hologram and make them legit! =)
1238 2011-10-23 23:30:31 <casascius> however, at least someone else could do the stickering
1239 2011-10-23 23:30:46 <JFK911> well im just thinking about coins and how people think their current coins are valid just because they can hold them in their hand
1240 2011-10-23 23:31:10 <gmaxwell> does kind of add confusion "but I thought it wasn't valid without the hologram?"
1241 2011-10-23 23:31:28 <casascius> another reasonable idea would be to just make a promotional edition coin
1242 2011-10-23 23:31:32 <casascius> that doesn't purport to be "a bitcoin"
1243 2011-10-23 23:31:38 <JFK911> but with your btc coins most people dont know why the sticker should be intact
1244 2011-10-23 23:31:42 <gmaxwell> it could be square perhaps.
1245 2011-10-23 23:31:51 <JFK911> or a stamp "sample"
1246 2011-10-23 23:32:06 <gmaxwell> sized to make it easy to put a mailing label type sticker on it for a giftcard.
1247 2011-10-23 23:32:35 <casascius> i have ordered some window holograms which I believe might enable me to delegate the production of the coins...the bitcoin address would show through the window....then there would be no concern that the private key was inside
1248 2011-10-23 23:32:53 <casascius> then i could have a bunch of temp workers over for a day while they stuffed coins and I made sure no one kept any or copied any keys
1249 2011-10-23 23:33:00 <JFK911> or take a grinder to a stack and flatten part of an edge
1250 2011-10-23 23:33:04 <casascius> that's about the only viable solution i can think of
1251 2011-10-23 23:33:31 <gmaxwell> JFK911: they'd need to be very distinct. If they look coinlike people will look for the hologram.
1252 2011-10-23 23:33:42 <gmaxwell> (as they should)
1253 2011-10-23 23:34:05 Hadaka has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1254 2011-10-23 23:34:08 <JFK911> well, that's how they cancel drivers licenses, and record albums that cant be sold at full price
1255 2011-10-23 23:34:13 <JFK911> just some cut
1256 2011-10-23 23:34:27 <casascius> I would be willing to sell a bag of 1000 bitcoin blanks for $300 or BTC equivalent plus shipping
1257 2011-10-23 23:35:04 <JFK911> casascius: where's the private key stored? the sticker makes an envelope or there is storage inside the token?
1258 2011-10-23 23:35:32 <casascius> these coins would have no private keys..they are the brass portion only....otherwise, the private key is under the sticker (there's a hollowed out spot for a little piece of paper so the sticker is flush)
1259 2011-10-23 23:35:39 <gmaxwell> http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6272/physbitcoinkey.jpg
1260 2011-10-23 23:35:43 <JFK911> OH thats awesome
1261 2011-10-23 23:36:05 <JFK911> neat, i hadn't seen this before
1262 2011-10-23 23:36:14 <casascius> those pictures on my website where i show stacks of coins....that's one bag of 1000 coins worth
1263 2011-10-23 23:36:19 <JFK911> And it's polymer or something else that should be laundry-proof?
1264 2011-10-23 23:37:07 <casascius> the sticker is likely to hold up in the laundry but the inkjetted bitcoin address on the exterior will probably wear...It would probably survive a single wash, but won't survive a lot of solvents nor constant wear
1265 2011-10-23 23:37:52 <JFK911> pretty good
1266 2011-10-23 23:38:18 <JFK911> maybe the window will be easier production
1267 2011-10-23 23:38:24 <JFK911> 2-sided laser printer
1268 2011-10-23 23:38:31 <JFK911> then die cut the dots out
1269 2011-10-23 23:38:50 <casascius> i would love to get the cost down, because i know that a 30-35% markup on a coin is bullcrap....but my time is just limited
1270 2011-10-23 23:39:14 <casascius> hoping the 25 BTC coin makes more sense at this point...much better deal, because it's less time commitment per BTC
1271 2011-10-23 23:39:26 <gmaxwell> yea, I don't fault you for that.
1272 2011-10-23 23:39:38 ThomasV has joined
1273 2011-10-23 23:39:46 <gmaxwell> The 25 BTC coin makes more sense as a token for actually obtaining bitcoins... and about no sense as a promotional tool.
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1275 2011-10-23 23:41:38 <casascius> Got to run, back later
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1277 2011-10-23 23:46:06 Sorcy is now known as Ycros
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1280 2011-10-23 23:48:10 <Diablo-D3> back
1281 2011-10-23 23:48:25 <Mad7Scientist> When a block is solved does that mean somebody find a hash with a certain number of leading zeros?
1282 2011-10-23 23:48:46 <Mad7Scientist> I'll ask in -otc
1283 2011-10-23 23:49:02 <Diablo-D3> wasnt someone doing btc cards of high values at one point?
1284 2011-10-23 23:49:06 <Diablo-D3> Mad7Scientist: yes
1285 2011-10-23 23:49:16 <Diablo-D3> although the zeros in this sense are binary
1286 2011-10-23 23:49:22 <Diablo-D3> so you can just directly check the value
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1288 2011-10-23 23:50:06 <Mad7Scientist> Diablo-D3, how can you have difficulty levels that are not * of 2 with that method?
1289 2011-10-23 23:50:36 <Diablo-D3> because diff is checked by just comparing the second 32 bits against the number of diff
1290 2011-10-23 23:50:58 <Diablo-D3> ie, we're at 1.x million now, so the second 32 bits needs to be less than 1.x million
1291 2011-10-23 23:51:07 <Mad7Scientist> I see
1292 2011-10-23 23:51:14 <Mad7Scientist> I was thinking
1293 2011-10-23 23:51:34 <Mad7Scientist> Could a miner solve future blocks at the same time?
1294 2011-10-23 23:51:48 <Diablo-D3> well, less than 2**32 minus 1.x million, but you get the point
1295 2011-10-23 23:51:52 <Mad7Scientist> Say it finds a hash that is short by 1 zero
1296 2011-10-23 23:51:53 <Diablo-D3> no
1297 2011-10-23 23:52:07 <Mad7Scientist> could it hang on to that and then when difficulty goes down in the future use that one
1298 2011-10-23 23:52:13 <Diablo-D3> the block header has the previous block's hash in it
1299 2011-10-23 23:52:43 <Mad7Scientist> But is the hash that the miner is trying to solve related to the previous block at all?
1300 2011-10-23 23:52:49 <Diablo-D3> yes
1301 2011-10-23 23:53:02 <Diablo-D3> because the miner is fed the header of the potential block to hash
1302 2011-10-23 23:53:33 <ThomasV> what is the last byte of the signature in ScriptSig ?
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1306 2011-10-23 23:57:26 <lianj> ThomasV: hash type?
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