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  19 2011-10-24 00:33:26 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: looks like eligius is back up to 150GH/s.
  20 2011-10-24 00:33:38 <Diablo-D3> not very much.
  21 2011-10-24 00:33:40 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: it would be nice if you'd update the forum to not show 0.
  22 2011-10-24 00:33:56 <Diablo-D3> erm, does luke know he can do it himself?
  23 2011-10-24 00:34:24 <gmaxwell> Luke can't, his laptop is dead, he fixed the pool today over a cellphone.
  24 2011-10-24 00:34:30 <Diablo-D3> lawl
  25 2011-10-24 00:37:22 <Diablo-D3> hes now #10.
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  27 2011-10-24 00:48:21 <imsaguy> its funny you'll edit it to say 0, but you won't edit it to fix it
  28 2011-10-24 00:48:35 <gmaxwell> imsaguy: he fixed it
  29 2011-10-24 00:48:49 <imsaguy> excellent
  30 2011-10-24 00:48:54 <Diablo-D3> [08:24:47] <Diablo-D3> hes now #10.
  31 2011-10-24 00:48:58 <Diablo-D3> ^ proof I fixed it
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  57 2011-10-24 01:42:55 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * ra419a0073feb bitcoin-alt/ (4 files in 3 dirs): add indexes to default template improve algorithm for getting blocks
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  88 2011-10-24 02:36:02 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r247 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/Utils.java: Remove stray line causing a compile error on Java 5
  89 2011-10-24 02:36:43 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r248 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix PeerGroup.setMaxConnections for values less than 4. Resolve issue 97
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  95 2011-10-24 03:02:53 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * rb2e64d41d664 bitcoin-alt/ (bitcoin.py bitcoin/storage/postgres.py): use prepared statements cache whether block is in db or not
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 165 2011-10-24 04:52:15 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r249 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/MockNetworkConnection.java: Fix another Java-6ism
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 169 2011-10-24 04:54:53 <FellowTraveler> Hi all.
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 346 2011-10-24 09:27:06 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
 347 2011-10-24 09:27:09 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
 348 2011-10-24 09:27:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 150426 | Current Difficulty: 1468195.4272208 | Next Difficulty At Block: 151199 | Next Difficulty In: 773 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes, and 54 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1229642.69241006 | Estimated Percent Change: -16.24802328
 349 2011-10-24 09:27:11 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":3.2,"low":2.85,"avg":3.078362842,"vwap":3.047698006,"vol":47623,"last_all":2.90768,"last_local":2.90768,"last":2.90768,"buy":2.8811,"sell":2.90561}}
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 375 2011-10-24 10:08:47 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 376 2011-10-24 10:09:51 <ageis> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException on debian... whats the fix?
 377 2011-10-24 10:11:32 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 378 2011-10-24 10:13:03 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r7bbb33bff103 bitcoin-alt/ (bitcoin/storage/postgres.py postgresql.sql): remove caching of have_* calls (not useful for most cases)
 379 2011-10-24 10:13:06 <CIA-101> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r9136a2a90630 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/storage/postgres.py: missed reference to self.transaction_hashes
 380 2011-10-24 10:15:44 <ageis> nvm, deleting database in /home/.bitcoin fixed
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 382 2011-10-24 10:17:40 <ageis> looks like a freq issue with debian or debian-based systems
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 423 2011-10-24 11:45:40 <cande> is it easy to implement a double spending warning for 0 confirm transaction into a bitcoin client?
 424 2011-10-24 11:46:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 425 2011-10-24 11:49:26 Fnar has joined
 426 2011-10-24 11:55:03 <terrytibbs> cande: You'd have to be connected to well established nodes in different parts of the world.
 427 2011-10-24 11:55:54 <terrytibbs> "[Transaction Radar] is to build a tool that can detect some attempts at double-spending." - http://www.transactionradar.com/
 428 2011-10-24 11:56:15 <terrytibbs> I screwed that quote up, but yeah, you get the point.
 429 2011-10-24 11:56:46 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 430 2011-10-24 11:57:00 <cande> can i spend 5 btc on a coffey, and the same 5 btc to myself, and since I put the timestamp in myself, i put in a earlier timestamp for my transaction, but release that one later
 431 2011-10-24 11:57:02 <epscy> oh interesting
 432 2011-10-24 11:57:08 <epscy> terrytibbs: how does that work?
 433 2011-10-24 11:57:46 <terrytibbs> Poll their API with the txid of the transaction, and it will return the estimated network propagation.
 434 2011-10-24 11:57:54 <terrytibbs> Be warned, though.
 435 2011-10-24 11:58:02 <edcba> cande: double spending can work if nodes don't wait for confirmation(s)
 436 2011-10-24 11:58:25 <terrytibbs> If they use a static set of nodes, and someone finds out where they're at, they can specifically target those nodes during the attack
 437 2011-10-24 11:59:21 <cande> hm
 438 2011-10-24 11:59:26 <edcba> anyway if you can report double spent coins you may mark some coins less trustworthy than others
 439 2011-10-24 11:59:46 <edcba> and then for those wait confirmations
 440 2011-10-24 11:59:51 <epscy> edcba: yeah that is what we are discussing in #bitcoin
 441 2011-10-24 12:00:22 <edcba> would be interesting to be able to taint coins
 442 2011-10-24 12:00:31 <epscy> Etlase seems to think bitcoin nodes should broadcast the second invalid spend as a notification to other nodes
 443 2011-10-24 12:00:45 <edcba> indeed
 444 2011-10-24 12:01:01 <epscy> i suspect that could be abused, but i am not sure how
 445 2011-10-24 12:01:10 <edcba> bandwidth
 446 2011-10-24 12:01:13 <edcba> as always
 447 2011-10-24 12:01:39 <lfm> cande transactions dont have timestamps till they are confirmed in a block
 448 2011-10-24 12:01:57 <cande> lfm, ah
 449 2011-10-24 12:02:32 <cande> lfm, but they have a time here: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
 450 2011-10-24 12:03:05 <lfm> Thats prolly just the time that that node received it
 451 2011-10-24 12:03:48 <dikidera> Wow...this was the first time in a dream i ever said ...i am disappoint
 452 2011-10-24 12:04:32 Nexus7 has joined
 453 2011-10-24 12:04:34 <cande> so if a node recevices a double spending, which will it choose to put into a block?
 454 2011-10-24 12:04:38 <tcatm> cande: yes, it's the time when it was received
 455 2011-10-24 12:04:55 <epscy> cande: the first it sees probably
 456 2011-10-24 12:05:03 <cande> ah :)
 457 2011-10-24 12:05:04 <lfm> cande Id expect the first one it sees
 458 2011-10-24 12:05:04 <cande> perfect
 459 2011-10-24 12:05:05 <epscy> but technically speaking it is up tot he miner
 460 2011-10-24 12:05:17 <lfm> epscy yup
 461 2011-10-24 12:05:24 <cande> this is good
 462 2011-10-24 12:05:51 <lfm> and different nodes might see different txn fist
 463 2011-10-24 12:05:57 <cande> yes..
 464 2011-10-24 12:06:21 <lfm> but of course eventually only one will be confirmed
 465 2011-10-24 12:06:26 <cande> yes,
 466 2011-10-24 12:06:41 <cande> but then we are already warned, hopfully
 467 2011-10-24 12:07:21 <cande> i'm examining the use of 0 confirm transactions
 468 2011-10-24 12:07:39 <dikidera> the website bitcoinservice is vulnerable to double spending
 469 2011-10-24 12:08:03 <cande> co.uk ?
 470 2011-10-24 12:08:06 <lfm> cande you cant rely on them. you may never see the txn which gets mined till you get the block
 471 2011-10-24 12:08:07 <dikidera> yts
 472 2011-10-24 12:08:09 <dikidera> *yes
 473 2011-10-24 12:08:32 <dikidera> Cause this one time i sent some money to buy a product, the account was credited instantly...
 474 2011-10-24 12:08:38 <epscy> cande: yeah there isn't really a warning at the moment
 475 2011-10-24 12:09:17 <epscy> the miners could do it, but if a miner says a sender is bad then you have to take their word for it
 476 2011-10-24 12:09:32 <lfm> cande: even the miners may only see one of the txn
 477 2011-10-24 12:10:15 <cande> but how likely is it that only one txn is seen?
 478 2011-10-24 12:11:14 <lfm> If a node detects a "bad" txn like trying to dbl spend, it might never pass it along to  other nodes. It would only pass one of em along
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 480 2011-10-24 12:11:41 <cande> mhm
 481 2011-10-24 12:12:10 <cande> and how does the nodes judge a txn
 482 2011-10-24 12:13:28 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 483 2011-10-24 12:13:52 <lfm> prolly best to read the white paper for the ways txn get checked
 484 2011-10-24 12:14:23 zhoutong has joined
 485 2011-10-24 12:15:05 <cande> ok
 486 2011-10-24 12:15:07 <cande> thx
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 505 2011-10-24 12:57:09 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r250 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerGroup.java: Don't inform the API user of peer disconnects or select a new download peer when a PeerGroup is being terminated. Fixes issue 95.
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 516 2011-10-24 13:07:59 <cande> how is this transfer possible? it has the same block as input, twice? http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#79818af1819de84fe60b5dae0f07707b1af6972b52a328968690f3110cd9621c
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 520 2011-10-24 13:10:35 <edcba> hmm
 521 2011-10-24 13:10:46 Sedra- is now known as Sedra
 522 2011-10-24 13:13:19 <edcba> maybe a bug somewhere
 523 2011-10-24 13:15:49 <edcba> but i don't think you can cheat bitcoin client as easily
 524 2011-10-24 13:17:39 <cande> ok :)
 525 2011-10-24 13:17:41 <sipa> cande: it's not valid
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 528 2011-10-24 13:18:47 <cjdelisl1> yea, it's not confirmed and it never will (should) be
 529 2011-10-24 13:19:18 <cande> a form of double spending failed attack?
 530 2011-10-24 13:19:40 <cjdelisl1> it's not actually a double spend attack
 531 2011-10-24 13:19:50 Nexus7 has quit ()
 532 2011-10-24 13:20:11 <cjdelisl1> Or I suppose it technically is but it's not the kind that has a chance of actually working ;)
 533 2011-10-24 13:20:28 <cande> but why is it still there?
 534 2011-10-24 13:20:36 <cande> is obviously fake
 535 2011-10-24 13:20:36 <cjdelisl1> it's not in a block
 536 2011-10-24 13:20:44 <cjdelisl1> and it never will be
 537 2011-10-24 13:21:00 <cande> but it is a 0 confirm transaction, right?
 538 2011-10-24 13:21:07 <cjdelisl1> yea
 539 2011-10-24 13:21:16 welterde has joined
 540 2011-10-24 13:21:31 <cjdelisl1> 0 confirms --> "I have money, promise!"
 541 2011-10-24 13:21:56 Crasher22 has quit ()
 542 2011-10-24 13:21:59 <cjdelisl1> 1 confirms --> Miner saying: "Yes he actually has the money."
 543 2011-10-24 13:22:21 Ceaser86 has joined
 544 2011-10-24 13:22:37 <cande> but there are some checks for making a 0 confirm transaction?
 545 2011-10-24 13:22:53 <cande> it has to be redistributed throughout the nodes
 546 2011-10-24 13:22:58 <cjdelisl1> But in my understanding, even if someone mined a block with that tx, the client would still just drop the tx on the floor and even worse, the money that was used in it would be gone forever.
 547 2011-10-24 13:23:17 <cande> hm
 548 2011-10-24 13:23:28 Ceaser86 has left ()
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 550 2011-10-24 13:25:47 <cande> another one, just like it: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#82cfebdbd7452214abbfafe440603f675a60ee05be3fde2893f5e6f98a8673e7
 551 2011-10-24 13:26:10 <cande> maybe someone was trying to do some funny shit
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 553 2011-10-24 13:27:02 <cjdelisl1> yeap
 554 2011-10-24 13:27:28 Ceaser86 has quit (Client Quit)
 555 2011-10-24 13:30:20 <dikidera> Hmm
 556 2011-10-24 13:30:31 <dikidera> So..anyone encountered the 10bit h264 profile?
 557 2011-10-24 13:30:48 <cande> qwhat is that?
 558 2011-10-24 13:31:15 <dikidera> a new h264 profile that uses 10 bits(color depth) to represent a color in a single pixel
 559 2011-10-24 13:31:58 <cjdelisl1> 1024 colors
 560 2011-10-24 13:32:00 <cjdelisl1> hmm
 561 2011-10-24 13:32:45 <dikidera> Most h264 encoders of anime already switched to it, so i think soon in the Scene as well
 562 2011-10-24 13:32:58 <cande> ah
 563 2011-10-24 13:33:10 <cande> cool
 564 2011-10-24 13:33:44 <cjdelisl1> haha sounds like mkv
 565 2011-10-24 13:33:58 <dikidera> and what is wrong with mkv?
 566 2011-10-24 13:34:08 <dikidera> Its a container for multiple sources
 567 2011-10-24 13:34:14 <dikidera> evne the scene uses it
 568 2011-10-24 13:34:16 <dikidera> *even
 569 2011-10-24 13:34:27 <cjdelisl1> noone in the real world uses it because mp4 is fine but The Scene uses it to troll everyone
 570 2011-10-24 13:34:37 <dikidera> ...right
 571 2011-10-24 13:34:54 <Eliel> dikidera: yep, I've seen many 10bit h264 files already.
 572 2011-10-24 13:34:57 <epscy> i have heard of 10 bit h264
 573 2011-10-24 13:35:12 <epscy> higher quality with smaller filesize apparently
 574 2011-10-24 13:35:21 <epscy> sounds like witchcraft to me
 575 2011-10-24 13:35:51 <Eliel> cjdelisl1: mkv sure has lots of users for not being used in the "real world" :P
 576 2011-10-24 13:36:23 <cjdelisl1> same with perl
 577 2011-10-24 13:36:30 <dikidera> epscy:if only we were not trolled by some with the size of 404mb for 23mb of video...
 578 2011-10-24 13:36:35 <cjdelisl1> ooo and lisp
 579 2011-10-24 13:36:40 <dikidera> Or the size over 500 megs...
 580 2011-10-24 13:36:48 <edcba> 10bits instead of ?
 581 2011-10-24 13:36:52 <dikidera> 8?
 582 2011-10-24 13:37:04 <Eliel> cjdelisl1: so, you're saying mkv is inferior in some way to, say mp4?
 583 2011-10-24 13:37:12 iocor has joined
 584 2011-10-24 13:38:19 <cjdelisl1> idk enough to say.. at the very least it's just nonstandard
 585 2011-10-24 13:38:23 <cjdelisl1> like .rar
 586 2011-10-24 13:38:37 <epscy> rar non standard lol
 587 2011-10-24 13:38:46 <epscy> i see more rars than zips these days
 588 2011-10-24 13:38:53 <cjdelisl1> 7z has higher compression and is open source and all that
 589 2011-10-24 13:39:10 <cjdelisl1> but rar wins because the scene likes it
 590 2011-10-24 13:40:58 <edcba> higher compression means nothing
 591 2011-10-24 13:41:06 <cjdelisl1> indeed
 592 2011-10-24 13:41:22 <edcba> we could have even higher but we would wait a lot to get it
 593 2011-10-24 13:42:01 <cjdelisl1> being written by a Russian guy means everything, clearly.
 594 2011-10-24 13:42:15 <cjdelisl1> otherwise people wouldn't use rar anymore
 595 2011-10-24 13:42:17 <Eliel> cjdelisl1: rar got established, so now it takes considerable effort to dislodge it
 596 2011-10-24 13:42:27 <cjdelisl1> /nod
 597 2011-10-24 13:43:11 <Eliel> mkv may not be an official standard but of the video files I see, barely any are anything else.
 598 2011-10-24 13:43:23 <Eliel> so it's become a de facto standard
 599 2011-10-24 13:43:31 <cjdelisl1> yeap
 600 2011-10-24 13:43:33 <cjdelisl1> therefor
 601 2011-10-24 13:43:37 <cjdelisl1> mkv is paypal
 602 2011-10-24 13:43:59 <Eliel> it's a huge improvement over .avi format anyway :)
 603 2011-10-24 13:44:14 <cjdelisl1> I wouldn't know
 604 2011-10-24 13:44:27 <[Tycho]> .avi is the best format for video :)
 605 2011-10-24 13:44:28 <cjdelisl1> I just know that anything I feed to mencoder comes out desynced
 606 2011-10-24 13:44:30 <Eliel> people didn't move to using mkv just for fun you know :P
 607 2011-10-24 13:44:40 <[Tycho]> mkv should be forgotten :)
 608 2011-10-24 13:44:55 <dikidera> how so?
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 610 2011-10-24 13:44:58 <cjdelisl1> people didn't move to using mkv just for fun you know :P <-- actually I beg to differ
 611 2011-10-24 13:45:01 <dikidera> its called matroska
 612 2011-10-24 13:45:02 <Eliel> avi is terribly restricted format.
 613 2011-10-24 13:45:07 <dikidera> which is a russian word, why would you hate it?
 614 2011-10-24 13:45:09 MC1984 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 615 2011-10-24 13:45:21 <cjdelisl1> IMO it's more or less like Tonal system.
 616 2011-10-24 13:45:35 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 617 2011-10-24 13:45:39 <Eliel> it can't even sync sound unless it's encoded with a constant bitrate codec
 618 2011-10-24 13:45:48 <dikidera> I dont know of other containers that you can cram inside fonts and the like
 619 2011-10-24 13:46:03 <dikidera> Eliel:lol
 620 2011-10-24 13:46:10 <dikidera> That is a problem with your rig,codecs
 621 2011-10-24 13:46:24 <edcba> mkv allows multiple subs !
 622 2011-10-24 13:46:27 <cjdelisl1> ahh that explains why mencoder is a heap of garbage
 623 2011-10-24 13:46:48 <dikidera> edcba:and not limited to that
 624 2011-10-24 13:47:03 <dikidera> multiple video sources(not really used), multiple audio sources, fonts,
 625 2011-10-24 13:47:04 <edcba> yes but having too much is not really an avantage
 626 2011-10-24 13:47:09 <dikidera> subtitles streams
 627 2011-10-24 13:48:48 <cjdelisl1> if I want to transcode some vids without them desyncing, what program do you recommend?
 628 2011-10-24 13:48:51 <cjdelisl1> ffmpeg?
 629 2011-10-24 13:49:37 <dikidera> Dunno what you would use
 630 2011-10-24 13:49:43 <edcba> yes what is every ppl using ?
 631 2011-10-24 13:49:54 <dikidera> i use VirtualDub with AVISynth frameserver and the DirectShowSource with constant fps
 632 2011-10-24 13:49:59 <edcba> hmm
 633 2011-10-24 13:50:10 * cjdelisl1 linuxtard
 634 2011-10-24 13:50:14 <dikidera> megui sucks...
 635 2011-10-24 13:50:23 <epscy> errr, thats windows stuff
 636 2011-10-24 13:50:26 <dikidera> for the sole reason it crashes on files larger than 2 gigabytes
 637 2011-10-24 13:51:06 <dikidera> VirtualDub is opensource
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 639 2011-10-24 13:51:10 <dikidera> you can port it to linux
 640 2011-10-24 13:51:17 <cjdelisl1> uhno
 641 2011-10-24 13:51:26 <cjdelisl1> I've used m(player|encoder) since forever becasuse it was the first software that could play dvds
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 643 2011-10-24 13:51:58 <Eliel> I can't recall the last time I had a problem with audio sync going wonky with mencoder. It did use to do it but it's been a really long time since I saw that happen last.
 644 2011-10-24 13:52:11 <dikidera> In any case, virtualdub has changed the world..
 645 2011-10-24 13:52:14 <Eliel> but... this is kind of an offtopic for this channel :)
 646 2011-10-24 13:52:30 <dikidera> Eliel:sure the channel does have bitcoin in it, but its still dev
 647 2011-10-24 13:52:40 <Eliel> cjdelisl1: perhaps you need to get a new version :)
 648 2011-10-24 13:53:34 <gmaxwell> can the video talk go someplace else?
 649 2011-10-24 13:53:54 <gmaxwell> I'm trying to find the txn people were talking about in the scrollback.
 650 2011-10-24 13:54:03 <gmaxwell> cande: Can you point me to one? the prior links don't work.
 651 2011-10-24 13:54:11 <dikidera> what txn?
 652 2011-10-24 13:54:29 <Eliel> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#82cfebdbd7452214abbfafe440603f675a60ee05be3fde2893f5e6f98a8673e7 this one?
 653 2011-10-24 13:54:40 <Eliel> or this? http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/#79818af1819de84fe60b5dae0f07707b1af6972b52a328968690f3110cd9621c
 654 2011-10-24 13:55:06 MC1984 has joined
 655 2011-10-24 13:55:10 <gmaxwell> Eliel: those references don't work for me. Do they actually work for you?
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 657 2011-10-24 13:55:28 <cande> they are gone
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 659 2011-10-24 13:56:03 <Eliel> gmaxwell: they don't now. They did half an hour ago though
 660 2011-10-24 13:56:03 <cande> but i have a cached copy
 661 2011-10-24 13:56:20 <gmaxwell> In any case, I can't see them so I can't make an specific comment about them... but _all_ bitcoin nodes will instantly drop an invalid txn. You won't even see them as 0-confirms.
 662 2011-10-24 13:56:26 <gmaxwell> cande: can you send me a picture?
 663 2011-10-24 13:56:34 <gmaxwell> (or better- pastebin the text?
 664 2011-10-24 13:56:35 <gmaxwell> )
 665 2011-10-24 13:56:39 <cande> pastbit :(
 666 2011-10-24 13:56:41 <cande> :)
 667 2011-10-24 13:57:34 <gmaxwell> So either we're misunderstanding them or the node that backs up that page has been hacked to allow everything and someone is playing games. :)
 668 2011-10-24 13:57:40 <cande> http://pastebin.com/RjKStfm1
 669 2011-10-24 13:58:06 <gmaxwell> Ha!
 670 2011-10-24 13:58:13 <gmaxwell> sure enough, that sure looks like what you said.
 671 2011-10-24 13:58:22 <cande> i have another one with 50 + 50 btc just like it
 672 2011-10-24 13:59:15 <cande> what do you make out of it?
 673 2011-10-24 14:00:05 <cande> http://pastebin.com/RNN52vGJ
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 675 2011-10-24 14:02:05 <gmaxwell> I can only guess that there is some broken piece of software generating a transaction, and the monitoring node has had its filtering logic castrated enough to display those.
 676 2011-10-24 14:03:08 <sipa> it was only in 0.4.0 that a check for double spending within the same tx was implemented
 677 2011-10-24 14:03:09 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: You see those pastbin links?  bitcoincharts.com was showing transactions which used the same input twice.
 678 2011-10-24 14:03:20 <sipa> obviously they never confirm
 679 2011-10-24 14:03:30 <sipa> but before that, they could end up in transaction pools
 680 2011-10-24 14:03:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh 0_o the coin selection could pick the same input twice?
 681 2011-10-24 14:03:36 <sipa> no
 682 2011-10-24 14:03:44 <gmaxwell> oh you mean the forwarding logic.
 683 2011-10-24 14:04:00 <sipa> indeed
 684 2011-10-24 14:04:16 <sipa> so if that site is using an older bitcoind, it could show them
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 688 2011-10-24 14:04:50 <gmaxwell> man, I wonder if you could use that to attack things with old nodes that accepted zero confirm transactions? :(
 689 2011-10-24 14:05:11 <gmaxwell> txn with 2x the funds that you actually have, which will never confirm.
 690 2011-10-24 14:05:23 <gmaxwell> and they don't even get saved on disk anywhere.
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 692 2011-10-24 14:05:57 <gavinandresen> moral to the story: don't accept 0- or 1-conf transactions unless they're small value or from a 'green address' you trust
 693 2011-10-24 14:06:40 <cjdelisl1> it's known that things which accept 0confirms are probelmatic since there are plenty of transactions which old nodes will accept and new ones will drop.
 694 2011-10-24 14:07:39 <cande> so to improve security with 0confirms you need a good node and client software?
 695 2011-10-24 14:08:27 <gmaxwell> sure, 0 confirm transactions have risks, but the expectation is that they still have a chance of surviving without some serious effort by the attacker. Thats pretty lame that nodes would show txn without a chance.
 696 2011-10-24 14:08:46 <sipa> 0 confirm transaction = when you trust the payer not to double spend
 697 2011-10-24 14:08:52 <sipa> period
 698 2011-10-24 14:09:06 <cande> like buying coffey or lunch at your restaurant
 699 2011-10-24 14:09:14 <cande> ?
 700 2011-10-24 14:09:26 <sipa> or when it's a payment from a friend
 701 2011-10-24 14:10:16 <cande> mm
 702 2011-10-24 14:12:27 <cjdelisl1> if you want to accept 0conf tx, for heaven's sake park a bot in -watch and see if at least luke's stuff thinks it's good.
 703 2011-10-24 14:14:09 <gmaxwell> cjdelisl1: but thats the point I was making— even if you were doing that you'd get exploited by these transactions unless you'd fixed this bug yourself.
 704 2011-10-24 14:14:42 <gmaxwell> since I expect luke's node had the same bug for accepting into the memory pool at some point.
 705 2011-10-24 14:15:05 <gmaxwell> Oh well, at least its fixed.
 706 2011-10-24 14:15:36 <cande> luke's node?
 707 2011-10-24 14:16:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: even with this fix, you can construct two transactions that spend eachother :)
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 709 2011-10-24 14:16:15 <sipa> wait, nvm
 710 2011-10-24 14:17:05 <gmaxwell> The inputs are part of the tx id.. so I dunno how you'd make a klein txn. :)
 711 2011-10-24 14:17:42 <gavinandresen>  lets see, if you could break double-SHA256 and then force....
 712 2011-10-24 14:17:50 <gavinandresen> (KIDDING! )
 713 2011-10-24 14:17:58 <cjdelisl1> We can assume pretty safely that the big mining pools will keep their stuff up to date so for 0conf transactions, -watch should give you a good indication of whether the network will honer a tx.
 714 2011-10-24 14:19:06 <cjdelisl1> but then I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who accept 0conf then refuse to keep any of their software up to date.
 715 2011-10-24 14:19:11 <gmaxwell> cjdelisl1: nothing would have mined these txn, fortunately, just not reject them upfront.
 716 2011-10-24 14:19:31 <gmaxwell> And I would be surprised to learn that, e.g. deepbit had updated.
 717 2011-10-24 14:20:26 <gmaxwell> cjdelisl1: Well, I have sympathy for everyone that gets screwed. At the same time, this kind of risk is what being an early user of bitcoin is about.
 718 2011-10-24 14:21:47 <gmaxwell> In any case, this probably makes mybitcoin's claims about getting screwed by double spends more plausable. esp with the fact that people have pointed out their shopping cart acted on zero confirm txn.
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 720 2011-10-24 14:22:47 <cjdelisl1> MBC is why I know about that issue
 721 2011-10-24 14:23:06 <cjdelisl1> but they had no interest in publishing the logs therefor they are crooks
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 723 2011-10-24 14:33:25 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r9ad51588261b /src/storage/postgresql/ (postgresql_blockchain.cpp postgresql_blockchain.hpp): block cache circular_buffer -> std::vector
 724 2011-10-24 14:33:26 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rfd44588cb12b / (3 files in 2 dirs): channel_id same as version nonce (random number)
 725 2011-10-24 14:34:14 <cande> ok, thanx for the input bitcoin brothers!
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 756 2011-10-24 16:06:10 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r251 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/TCPNetworkConnection.java: Add units to the TCPNetworkConnection connectTimeout[Msec] parameter.
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 758 2011-10-24 16:07:07 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r252 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/PeerGroup.java:
 759 2011-10-24 16:07:07 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: Fix a bug that could cause multiple peers to think they were download peers. It
 760 2011-10-24 16:07:07 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: wasn't revealed by the unit tests because of how peers are added there vs when
 761 2011-10-24 16:07:07 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: using discovery. That's now been changed so the tests are closer to reality.
 762 2011-10-24 16:07:33 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r253 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/PrintPeers.java: Dump out versions and chain heights in PrintPeers.
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 816 2011-10-24 17:40:55 <BlueMatt> for those wanting to run gitian in a vm: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commitdiff;h=823e396558e509b7c3225cd76806f3d6643ff5f8
 817 2011-10-24 17:41:39 <BlueMatt> note that it requires the use of kvm-based virtualization on the host hardware with specific parameters to the kernel mod running on the host so its not yet possible under eg a hosted vps
 818 2011-10-24 17:41:56 <BlueMatt> but it is possible if you need to run ubuntu in a vm on top of another linux distro that uses kvm
 819 2011-10-24 17:42:01 <BlueMatt> eg luke-jr|otg
 820 2011-10-24 17:42:14 <BlueMatt> (also requires linux-kernel-3.1)
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 851 2011-10-24 18:25:44 <diki> Is the 0.5 client going one step forward and two steps back?
 852 2011-10-24 18:25:58 <diki> Rather its the same with 0.4
 853 2011-10-24 18:26:09 <diki> All we got is a progress bar with percent
 854 2011-10-24 18:26:22 <diki> thats worse than not knowing how many blocks i have atm and how many are left
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 856 2011-10-24 18:26:34 <wumpus> hover the mouse above the tooltip it will show detailed info
 857 2011-10-24 18:26:43 <wumpus> above the progress bar I mean
 858 2011-10-24 18:27:01 <tcatm> some network statistics below the wallet summary would be neat
 859 2011-10-24 18:27:08 <diki> ^^
 860 2011-10-24 18:27:14 <Ycros> submit a patch
 861 2011-10-24 18:27:16 <Ycros> :P
 862 2011-10-24 18:27:17 <wumpus> yes, it would be neat
 863 2011-10-24 18:27:19 <diki> tcatm are you the creater of the 4way algo?
 864 2011-10-24 18:27:24 <diki> *creator
 865 2011-10-24 18:27:26 <wumpus> a pony would also ne neat :-)
 866 2011-10-24 18:28:20 <wumpus> Ycros: that's the spirit
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 869 2011-10-24 18:29:22 <wumpus> but please don't fill up the summary page with arcane network statistics, it is supposed to be newbie friendly :)
 870 2011-10-24 18:29:27 <tcatm> diki: I merely put some pieces together and made them work for mining
 871 2011-10-24 18:31:47 <tcatm> they could be newbie friendly. blockcount with numbers, number of connections with a short comment (you are not connected; you are well connected; ...)
 872 2011-10-24 18:32:31 <wumpus> number of connections is ok with me, block count is scary
 873 2011-10-24 18:32:40 <wumpus> people hate big numbers unless it's their $$$
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 876 2011-10-24 18:35:32 <wumpus> maybe convert them to dates somehow or something people understand intuitively...
 877 2011-10-24 18:36:17 <Ycros> I don't think showing block numbers adds value for most
 878 2011-10-24 18:36:39 <Ycros> perhaps there could be an "advanced mode" or somesuch that shows stuff like that
 879 2011-10-24 18:36:42 <wumpus> I don't think so either, what people want to know is whether they are 'synchronized' or not, and if they're out of date by how much
 880 2011-10-24 18:36:51 <wumpus> yeah advanced mode would be cool
 881 2011-10-24 18:38:30 <Ycros> simply because, many users of bitcoin are still technical users
 882 2011-10-24 18:38:34 <wumpus> anyway, you can view the block number in the tooltip, that's usually enough for troubleshooting
 883 2011-10-24 18:38:35 <Ycros> they might want to see stuff like that
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 885 2011-10-24 18:40:34 <wumpus> then again, technical users usually like cli interfaces to do their advanced stuff
 886 2011-10-24 18:40:55 <wumpus> maybe add a secret 'bitcoin console' :p
 887 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Wladimir J. van der Laan  * r5c92622 / (bitcoin-qt.pro src/qt/bitcoin.cpp src/qt/bitcoin.qrc):
 888 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Translation lookup logic improvements
 889 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - use wildcard for TRANSLATIONS in bitcoin-qt.pro to automatically build all translations present in src/qt/locale (thanks @tcatm)
 890 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: - first load translations/<language>.qm, then
 891 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: translations/<language>_<TERRITORY>.qm, so that territory-specific translations
 892 2011-10-24 18:41:07 <CIA-101> bitcoin: take precedence, but the fallback is on the base language if no
 893 2011-10-24 18:41:08 <CIA-101> bitcoin: territory-specific translation exists. - http://git.io/6Xz1bA
 894 2011-10-24 18:41:08 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen  * rcf90857 / (bitcoin-qt.pro src/qt/bitcoin.cpp src/qt/bitcoin.qrc):
 895 2011-10-24 18:41:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #591 from laanwj/translation_lookup_logic
 896 2011-10-24 18:41:09 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Translation look-up logic improvements for Qt UI - http://git.io/RG4SUQ
 897 2011-10-24 18:42:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen  * rd760b5c / src/makefile.unix :
 898 2011-10-24 18:42:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #586 from cjdelisle/hardening-bug-workaround
 899 2011-10-24 18:42:15 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Added a workaround for an Ubuntu bug which causes -fstack-protector-all t - http://git.io/2bUdlg
 900 2011-10-24 18:42:40 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen  * rf9f289a / doc/build-osx.txt :
 901 2011-10-24 18:42:41 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Merge pull request #584 from kwaaak/master
 902 2011-10-24 18:42:41 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Make build work on Mac OS X 10.7 Lion - http://git.io/npIbOQ
 903 2011-10-24 18:42:43 <wumpus> did the merge window open :o
 904 2011-10-24 18:43:08 <tcatm> we don't have merge windows ;)
 905 2011-10-24 18:43:24 <gavinandresen> no, just pulling for 0.5 rc2
 906 2011-10-24 18:43:29 <wumpus> ok
 907 2011-10-24 18:44:36 <gavinandresen> ... speaking of which: anybody know if there has been progress on the gitian builds?
 908 2011-10-24 18:45:24 <wumpus> I tried this weekend, but did not make any progress as such, I was first confused that an AWS was needed for gitian, but it seems you cannot use that
 909 2011-10-24 18:46:55 <diki> gavinandresen:have you ever met in person the mysterious satoshi?
 910 2011-10-24 18:47:19 <jgarzik> tcatm: sure we do...  we don't merge new features during -rc, making the merge window !rc
 911 2011-10-24 18:48:43 <diki> tcatm:ah, then can you tell me how the nonce is increased? i looked at cgminer's 4way and the only mention of nonce was in the doubleblocksha256 function
 912 2011-10-24 18:49:02 <wumpus> still trying though..
 913 2011-10-24 18:49:04 <tcatm> diki: nonce++ :)
 914 2011-10-24 18:49:38 <diki> tcatm:the only thing i see is "nonce = _mm_add_epi32(preNonce, _mm_set1_epi32(k));"
 915 2011-10-24 18:50:00 <diki> where k is either 4,8,16 or 32
 916 2011-10-24 18:50:40 <tcatm> then someone changed the code ;)
 917 2011-10-24 18:50:41 <diki> to be honest its jgarzik who would know
 918 2011-10-24 18:52:46 <tcatm> k is 0, 4, 8, 12, ..., preNonce is (3,2,1,0)
 919 2011-10-24 18:53:12 huk has joined
 920 2011-10-24 18:53:13 <tcatm> so it's more like nonce+=4
 921 2011-10-24 18:53:26 <diki> so how does it check from 1 to 2^32?
 922 2011-10-24 18:53:39 <diki> no, i still dont know how its increased
 923 2011-10-24 18:53:43 wtfman[away] is now known as wtfman
 924 2011-10-24 18:53:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: not really, I havent had too much time, and no one has bothered to take a look at what I did...
 925 2011-10-24 18:53:48 <diki> all i see is it starting all over from the beginning
 926 2011-10-24 18:54:24 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks for doing all you did.
 927 2011-10-24 18:55:03 <BlueMatt> I didnt do much, its not even deterministic yet...though I am trying to work on that part
 928 2011-10-24 18:55:16 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I did take a look at it
 929 2011-10-24 18:55:23 yebyen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 930 2011-10-24 18:55:24 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: is devrandom around to help?
 931 2011-10-24 18:55:25 <BlueMatt> its the odd build failures that I have no idea how to solve and need more eyes on...
 932 2011-10-24 18:55:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its not devrandom, its someone with considerable g++ experience that is needed...
 933 2011-10-24 18:55:59 <BlueMatt> wumpus: true, but that doesnt mean it got close enough for me to fix it...
 934 2011-10-24 18:56:22 <wumpus> it's just that the gitian stuff is .. non-standard, so it takes me some time to get it running and understand it
 935 2011-10-24 18:56:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well either that or a fresh set of eyes willing to dig through a lot of docs and output...
 936 2011-10-24 18:56:55 <BlueMatt> gitian is not that bad at all...https://gist.github.com/806265
 937 2011-10-24 18:57:06 <BlueMatt> (thats very out of date, but it gives the idea...)
 938 2011-10-24 18:57:09 <wumpus> I'm not saying it is bad :)
 939 2011-10-24 18:57:52 <wumpus> I mean it's not perl scripts glued together with cobwebs
 940 2011-10-24 18:58:43 minimoose has joined
 941 2011-10-24 18:59:03 <BlueMatt> I dont ever touch the scripts, theyve always worked fine for me...
 942 2011-10-24 19:03:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: so I'm following doc/release-process.txt... and it doesn't tell me which inputs to wget.
 943 2011-10-24 19:03:23 <BlueMatt> m, yea it kinda assumes youve got those...let me go look
 944 2011-10-24 19:04:40 <BlueMatt> you will need miniupnpc-1.6.tar.gz, qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.4.tar.gz, openssl-1.0.0d.tar.gz, db-4.8.30.NC.tar.gz
 945 2011-10-24 19:05:09 <BlueMatt> and boost_1_47_0.tar.bz2
 946 2011-10-24 19:05:19 <BlueMatt> sorry I dont have links, but google should turn them up pretty quick
 947 2011-10-24 19:05:49 <wumpus> E: Failed getting release file http://127.0.0.1:3142/archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/Release
 948 2011-10-24 19:06:01 <BlueMatt> do you have apt-cacher(-ng) installed?
 949 2011-10-24 19:06:10 <BlueMatt> (and running)
 950 2011-10-24 19:06:28 <gavinandresen> (apt-cacher didn't work for me, I had to use cacher-ng)
 951 2011-10-24 19:06:44 <wumpus> tried to... Starting Apt-Cacher: apt-cacher (not enabled in /etc/default/apt-cacher) .. seems I missed the error message :)
 952 2011-10-24 19:06:47 <BlueMatt> same here, though -ng sometimes freaks out on me and has to be restarted
 953 2011-10-24 19:10:34 <wumpus> with -ng it seems to work
 954 2011-10-24 19:10:40 <BlueMatt> oh and make sure to build boost + qt first and copy the zip from build/out to inputs/ before trying to build bitcoin-win32
 955 2011-10-24 19:10:47 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
 956 2011-10-24 19:12:29 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: to clarify:  you've been unable to cross-compile a bitcoin-qt.exe that runs, regardless of the gitian stuff ?
 957 2011-10-24 19:12:32 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 958 2011-10-24 19:13:12 <BlueMatt> correct
 959 2011-10-24 19:13:18 <BlueMatt> though Ive only ever tried it on lucid
 960 2011-10-24 19:13:57 <BlueMatt> though others have had success on other platforms
 961 2011-10-24 19:14:36 <BlueMatt> no, Ive actually tried it on 11.04 (natty) as well as 10.04 LTS lucid (what gitian runs on)
 962 2011-10-24 19:16:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm downloading dependencies and will do the Linux gitian build thing.  What platform(s) did "others" manage to get a working cross-compile going on?  Or who are those others so I can just ask them?
 963 2011-10-24 19:18:23 <wumpus> luke-jr said he was able to do it on gentoo, without gitian
 964 2011-10-24 19:18:57 <BlueMatt> thats all I know, though I thought I remember someone else saying something about getting it working though I cant recall who
 965 2011-10-24 19:20:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks again.  Does gitian work with any arbitrary linux as the child VM, or is it debian-specific?  I'm trying to decide whether to spend any time trying to get gitian win32 builds going, or just launch a Windows AWS instance and build there.
 966 2011-10-24 19:20:42 <BlueMatt> debian-specific
 967 2011-10-24 19:21:02 <BlueMatt> actually ubuntu-specific for now, but it could be ported to work on debian
 968 2011-10-24 19:21:03 <gavinandresen> ok, I'll spin up an AWS instance and get a windows build working there.
 969 2011-10-24 19:21:11 <BlueMatt> probably best for now
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 972 2011-10-24 19:22:24 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: one more thing:  were the gitian linux builds not reproducible, or just the win32 ones?
 973 2011-10-24 19:22:57 <BlueMatt> just win32
 974 2011-10-24 19:23:07 <BlueMatt> linux ones are working as they should (after my pull req)
 975 2011-10-24 19:23:08 <gavinandresen> cool, thanks
 976 2011-10-24 19:23:23 <BlueMatt> (though youll have to cherry-pick)
 977 2011-10-24 19:25:03 <gavinandresen> I'm starting with a tree that is your pull request, I plan on getting that working, then updating all the docs to reflect 0.5 release reality (e.g. remove the gitian-build-win32-stuff unless somebody figures it out in the next 24 hours or so), then committing everything and tagging it rc2.
 978 2011-10-24 19:25:09 larsivi has joined
 979 2011-10-24 19:25:54 <gavinandresen> Expect to hear hair-pulling and gnashing-of-teeth from me over the next day or two.  I'll probably be extra grumpy, too.
 980 2011-10-24 19:25:56 <BlueMatt> Im sure its simple to fix once you figure it out, I just dont have time to go disassembling code and digging through gcc docs...
 981 2011-10-24 19:26:04 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:
 982 2011-10-24 19:26:12 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it is always simple when you know how!
 983 2011-10-24 19:26:30 <BlueMatt> well that is true
 984 2011-10-24 19:27:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: any reason to stay at openssl-1.0.0d instead of 1.0.0e ?
 985 2011-10-24 19:27:55 spaola has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 986 2011-10-24 19:28:05 <BlueMatt> e wasnt out when the scripts were written
 987 2011-10-24 19:28:23 <BlueMatt> would have to be tested for determinism, but feel free to update it
 988 2011-10-24 19:29:14 <gavinandresen> Will do...
 989 2011-10-24 19:31:06 Moonies has joined
 990 2011-10-24 19:31:25 Matt_von_Mises has joined
 991 2011-10-24 19:32:17 <Matt_von_Mises> I have some technicallish queries… about the third party signing thing -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49689.0
 992 2011-10-24 19:32:54 <Matt_von_Mises> A person said you could program bitcoin so that clients only need to check two signatures before a date before the second key becomes invalid.
 993 2011-10-24 19:33:45 <Matt_von_Mises> But can this work? Can the client validate the bitcoins on the block chain so it knows if it needs to check both signatures or not?
 994 2011-10-24 19:34:01 spaola has joined
 995 2011-10-24 19:34:24 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm confused but my main question is: Is the key expiry thing compatible with current bitcoin clients?
 996 2011-10-24 19:35:45 <Ycros> validation-wise, yes
 997 2011-10-24 19:36:17 <Ycros> the key part, is that bitcoin uses a small scripting language for transactions
 998 2011-10-24 19:36:22 <Ycros> so you can come up with alternate schemes
 999 2011-10-24 19:36:39 <Ycros> and as long as they fit within that language, then they'll be able to be validated by any existing bitcoin client
1000 2011-10-24 19:38:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the openssl build is only on win32
1001 2011-10-24 19:38:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: linux just uses the ubuntu version
1002 2011-10-24 19:39:17 <Matt_von_Mises> But you surely can't just program the transaction to do no validation at all?
1003 2011-10-24 19:39:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ok...  so what do I need to wget to build the linux version?
1004 2011-10-24 19:40:10 <Matt_von_Mises> If you program into the transaction what keys to check, then you could do one transaction where the third party key is checked and another where it isn't, no?
1005 2011-10-24 19:40:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: just miniupnpc-1.6.tar.gz
1006 2011-10-24 19:40:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: cool, thanks.
1007 2011-10-24 19:40:51 <Matt_von_Mises> So you need to know who has ownership of the coins before, to know what keys to check?
1008 2011-10-24 19:41:13 <Ycros> Matt_von_Mises: all that bitcoin does, is makes sure that the script returns "true" when the transactions are connected to older transactions
1009 2011-10-24 19:41:25 <Matt_von_Mises> A sends coins to B, then B sends coins to C. C needs to check B owns the coins, no?
1010 2011-10-24 19:41:51 <Matt_von_Mises> B could use D to sign the coins but the key is only checked until a certain date
1011 2011-10-24 19:41:52 <Ukto> damn.. Uncaught BitcoinClientException: [0]: Didn't receive 200 OK from remote server. (HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error)   am I missing something, or can the bitcoind actually report back insufficient funds+txn to place transaction?
1012 2011-10-24 19:42:02 <Matt_von_Mises> After the date the bitcoins are not signed by D
1013 2011-10-24 19:42:04 <Ukto> rather then a random friggen error
1014 2011-10-24 19:42:04 <Ycros> Matt_von_Mises: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script might help
1015 2011-10-24 19:42:15 <Matt_von_Mises> But surely C needs to know the bitcoins are from C and D and not jsut C?
1016 2011-10-24 19:43:02 <Matt_von_Mises> No I mean B and D and not just B
1017 2011-10-24 19:43:09 <Matt_von_Mises> I probably confused you all
1018 2011-10-24 19:44:09 <Ukto> so.. RPC'd sendfrom()  I got (HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error)
1019 2011-10-24 19:44:17 <Ukto> in debug.log, there is no mention
1020 2011-10-24 19:44:26 <Matt_von_Mises> When A sends to B (consumer) and D (third party verifier) in a joint wallet, the block chain records the public keys for B and D, no?
1021 2011-10-24 19:44:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Can you make D's public key expire?
1022 2011-10-24 19:44:57 <Matt_von_Mises> Or do you need to always validate the bitcoins from both B and D?
1023 2011-10-24 19:46:02 <Ycros> there is some sort of expiration strategy you can implement, I'm not sure on the details
1024 2011-10-24 19:46:18 <Ycros> Matt_von_Mises: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
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1027 2011-10-24 19:51:47 <Matt_von_Mises> I don't understand how you make a private key for a bitcoin wallet just expire from that. I guess I'll just take your word for it that is works
1028 2011-10-24 19:52:16 devrandom has joined
1029 2011-10-24 19:54:46 <wumpus> huh, it built a amd64 image instead of i386, and bin/make-base-vm refuses to accept --arch=i386
1030 2011-10-24 19:54:49 <Ycros> Matt_von_Mises: look for the stuff about locktime in the page I linked to
1031 2011-10-24 19:54:56 rjk2 has quit (Quit: rebooting)
1032 2011-10-24 19:55:25 <wumpus> hm, -a i386 works
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1037 2011-10-24 20:00:00 <Matt_von_Mises> Trying to understand it. GOing right over my head. :D
1038 2011-10-24 20:01:24 rdponticelli has joined
1039 2011-10-24 20:01:57 <Matt_von_Mises> So you can create transactions for bitcoins that you don't even have...
1040 2011-10-24 20:02:05 <Matt_von_Mises> No idea what locktime means
1041 2011-10-24 20:02:23 <gavinandresen> Ukto: bitcoin follows the JSON-over-HTTP error reporting standard, so errors are HTTP 500, 400, or 404.
1042 2011-10-24 20:02:58 <Matt_von_Mises> Lock time is when the transaction is completed?
1043 2011-10-24 20:03:17 <gavinandresen> ... with details of the response in the JSON object's 'error' entry.  What json wrapper are you using?
1044 2011-10-24 20:06:35 <Matt_von_Mises> So it means a transaction that is pre-signed by the third party and ready to go after a certain date means the comsumer can claim the bitcoins back after the period?
1045 2011-10-24 20:07:02 <Matt_von_Mises> THe lock time is basically a transaction that becomes valid in the future?
1046 2011-10-24 20:07:04 TD_ has joined
1047 2011-10-24 20:08:28 <Matt_von_Mises> So the bitcoins get sent to the wallet that requires two signiates but the third party creates a transaction is signs and leaves the user to sign (to transfer the bitcoins back) but is only valid after a certain amount of time.
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1053 2011-10-24 20:16:59 <AlexWaters> anyone have an ETA for the gitian windows build?
1054 2011-10-24 20:17:40 <AlexWaters> i have 5-10 pulls I want to test, but am putting it on hold until I can do it right =/
1055 2011-10-24 20:18:31 <AlexWaters> any help with https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/587 would be very appreciated
1056 2011-10-24 20:18:46 <wumpus> dunno, I'm currently getting kernel segfaults trying to get gitian (kvm) to work
1057 2011-10-24 20:19:13 iocor has joined
1058 2011-10-24 20:19:53 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters: <gavinandresen> I'm starting with a tree that is your pull request, I plan on getting that working, then updating all the docs to reflect 0.5 release reality (e.g. remove the gitian-build-win32-stuff unless somebody figures it out in the next 24 hours or so), then committing everything and tagging it rc2.
1059 2011-10-24 20:21:17 <AlexWaters> BlueMatt: so we are scrapping gitian? how can we make windows executables for new Bitcoin users?
1060 2011-10-24 20:21:32 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters: I'll compile in an AWS instance
1061 2011-10-24 20:21:39 <BlueMatt> AlexWaters: no, just putting it on hold until it works, you can always coompile from windows
1062 2011-10-24 20:21:54 <BlueMatt> well, Id like to keep gitian alive, it would be really nice to do updates via that...
1063 2011-10-24 20:22:05 <gavinandresen> AlexWaters: ... and then make that instance public so if people don't trust me they can boot it up and poke at it themselves
1064 2011-10-24 20:22:42 <gavinandresen> So:  gitian for Linux,  AWS for Windows (and you just have to trust somebody if you want to run Mac builds)
1065 2011-10-24 20:22:50 <AlexWaters> gavinandresen: ok cool. I'm just looking for a way to compile pull requests so that I can play with them in windows. So far my windows QT build efforts have been unsuccessful
1066 2011-10-24 20:23:05 <wumpus> I don't think we're scrapping gitian
1067 2011-10-24 20:23:10 <wumpus> it just takes some trouble to get it to work
1068 2011-10-24 20:23:32 <wumpus> but I think it's too early to give it up completely
1069 2011-10-24 20:24:00 <BlueMatt> agreed
1070 2011-10-24 20:24:15 <terrytibbs> How are the nodes' IP addresses encoded when joining IRC during bootstrapping?
1071 2011-10-24 20:24:32 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1072 2011-10-24 20:25:38 <Matt_von_Mises> Did I figure it out right? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49689.msg591611#msg591611
1073 2011-10-24 20:35:04 <Matt_von_Mises> Is there any asymmetric crytography algorithm that can create two private keys for one public key?
1074 2011-10-24 20:35:32 <Matt_von_Mises> THat requires two private keys to encrypt data that is decrypted with the public key?
1075 2011-10-24 20:35:50 facebookshell has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1076 2011-10-24 20:36:34 <iddo> just xor the private key with random data?
1077 2011-10-24 20:36:40 <iddo> or do secret sharing?
1078 2011-10-24 20:38:46 <Matt_von_Mises> Well more specifically for bitcoin's ECDSA can you produce two private keys that are kept secret from each other that has one public key?
1079 2011-10-24 20:39:39 <cjdelisl1> Matt_von_Mises: the private key is a number which when multiplied by a constant gives you the public key
1080 2011-10-24 20:40:08 <cjdelisl1> if the constant was 3 and the public key was 30, how many numbers are there that make 30 when multiplied by 3?
1081 2011-10-24 20:40:10 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm sure I heard from someone that the current bitcoin clients can only send coins to wallets that have one public key behind it but these escrow service's have two for two signatures.
1082 2011-10-24 20:40:31 Moonies has quit (Quit: quack)
1083 2011-10-24 20:40:38 <Matt_von_Mises> cjdelisl1: Are then you can do this private = public/constant
1084 2011-10-24 20:40:44 <Matt_von_Mises> Bad for security.
1085 2011-10-24 20:41:01 <Matt_von_Mises> Remove "Are"
1086 2011-10-24 20:41:16 <cjdelisl1> it's division of numbers that are so ridiculously large that the division is impractical
1087 2011-10-24 20:41:29 <cjdelisl1> and they're not actually numbers, they are points, but that's not important
1088 2011-10-24 20:42:00 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm not a cryptography expert
1089 2011-10-24 20:42:18 <Matt_von_Mises> So ECDSA uses basic arithmetic?...
1090 2011-10-24 20:42:27 <Matt_von_Mises> Multiplying and dividing?
1091 2011-10-24 20:42:35 <gmaxwell> It uses basic arithmetic over special fields.
1092 2011-10-24 20:43:02 <Matt_von_Mises> Is dividing really that so much harder than multiplication for particular numbers?
1093 2011-10-24 20:43:08 <gmaxwell> Which is like basic arithmetic, if you're a mathematician. ;) (and unlike, otherwise!)
1094 2011-10-24 20:44:02 <Matt_von_Mises> So that an algorithm that takes a fraction of a second to generate keys with multiplications takes millions of years to reverse with division?
1095 2011-10-24 20:44:26 <cjdelisl1> no
1096 2011-10-24 20:44:34 <cjdelisl1> making up keys takes a few seconds
1097 2011-10-24 20:44:35 <Matt_von_Mises> THen what?
1098 2011-10-24 20:44:45 <gmaxwell> No, it takes a fraction of a second. ;)
1099 2011-10-24 20:44:45 <cjdelisl1> sometimes quite a while
1100 2011-10-24 20:44:47 <Matt_von_Mises> DEpends
1101 2011-10-24 20:44:51 <cjdelisl1> oh right
1102 2011-10-24 20:44:52 <Matt_von_Mises> Are we using a super computer here?
1103 2011-10-24 20:44:55 <Matt_von_Mises> :P
1104 2011-10-24 20:44:57 * cjdelisl1 was thinking RSA
1105 2011-10-24 20:45:15 <Matt_von_Mises> I heard ECDSA is faster
1106 2011-10-24 20:45:16 <gmaxwell> And it's eponentation and the logarithmic, not multiplication and division.
1107 2011-10-24 20:45:20 <casascius> the simple way I understand fields is that you're doing arithmetic, but everything you do, you divide it by something and only keep the remainder, and throw away the something.  the part you threw away makes it impractical to do the operation backwards.
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1109 2011-10-24 20:45:32 <gmaxwell> And yes, it really is so. In particular it's because we're doing this over a finite field.
1110 2011-10-24 20:45:35 <copumpkin> fields are more general than that
1111 2011-10-24 20:45:42 <Matt_von_Mises> THanks gmaxwell, I though the division/multiplication didn't add up.
1112 2011-10-24 20:45:54 <Matt_von_Mises> THat could be seen as a joke
1113 2011-10-24 20:46:15 <cjdelisl1> RSA uses exponentiation, ECDSA uses point multiplcation
1114 2011-10-24 20:46:21 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: the key point is that its over a finite field, not the operations (after all, exponentation is just repeated multiplcation and the log is just its inverse)
1115 2011-10-24 20:46:59 <Matt_von_Mises> Anywaaaay, I do not care for cryptography inner workings. As long as it produces secure keys, it doesn't matter.
1116 2011-10-24 20:47:25 <Matt_von_Mises> I can see how logarithms could take longer than exponentiation.
1117 2011-10-24 20:47:39 <copumpkin> just a tad
1118 2011-10-24 20:47:41 <gmaxwell> (and casascius hit the core of it— of course it actually is easy to reverse unless a number of criteria are met in addition to doing the operations over a finite field)
1119 2011-10-24 20:47:41 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm not a mathematician or computer scientist genius.
1120 2011-10-24 20:48:04 <copumpkin> you can raise to an exponent really quickly
1121 2011-10-24 20:48:10 <Matt_von_Mises> RSA uses primate number stuff, right?
1122 2011-10-24 20:48:14 <Matt_von_Mises> prime
1123 2011-10-24 20:48:16 <cjdelisl1> The disturbing thing about cryptography is that it's security depends on the fact that we don't understand certain operations well enough to reverse them easily algrbraicly.
1124 2011-10-24 20:48:24 <copumpkin> in fact, you can use that modular arithmetic trickiness to compute the low X digits of graham's number in no time at all
1125 2011-10-24 20:48:54 <copumpkin> where graham's number is usually considered the largest number ever described by man
1126 2011-10-24 20:49:00 <Matt_von_Mises> RSA uses the prime factorisation difficulty problem to the advantage, I heard somewhere
1127 2011-10-24 20:49:18 <Matt_von_Mises> Maybe that was something else
1128 2011-10-24 20:49:19 <casascius> the comforthing thing about cryptography is when something gets broken, it usually gets broken in stages: a limited-application crack here, a more useful crack there... things don't typically go from believed secure to blown wide open overnight
1129 2011-10-24 20:49:40 <cjdelisl1> ^/nod
1130 2011-10-24 20:49:45 <Matt_von_Mises> Sure I did hear that if you could make a really fast prime factorisation algorithm, you could crack cryptography faster.
1131 2011-10-24 20:50:00 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: this has been done.
1132 2011-10-24 20:50:04 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm sure it was about RSA
1133 2011-10-24 20:50:04 <copumpkin> crack certain kinds of it
1134 2011-10-24 20:50:12 <gmaxwell> The modern factoring stuff is _way_ faster than what we knew how to do 100 years ago.
1135 2011-10-24 20:50:28 t3a has joined
1136 2011-10-24 20:50:32 <Matt_von_Mises> 100 years ago did we have advanced computer technology?
1137 2011-10-24 20:50:37 <copumpkin> we had math
1138 2011-10-24 20:50:58 <gmaxwell> Not just math, but basically everything we use for this stuff.
1139 2011-10-24 20:51:01 <Matt_von_Mises> Mathetics no doubt had to grow with computer science?
1140 2011-10-24 20:51:06 <Matt_von_Mises> Mathematics.
1141 2011-10-24 20:51:14 <cjdelisl1> yea, we had almost everything we have now, it's just that the machines can crunch numbers faster
1142 2011-10-24 20:51:25 <Matt_von_Mises> Also you can't run algorithms very fast on paper.
1143 2011-10-24 20:51:34 <gmaxwell> E.g. Gauss invented the FFT in ~1800.
1144 2011-10-24 20:51:35 <copumpkin> we didn't have most of the factorization algorithms we use today
1145 2011-10-24 20:52:05 <Matt_von_Mises> But I'm right in saying RSA is based on that stuff, yes?
1146 2011-10-24 20:52:09 <Matt_von_Mises> Anyone know?
1147 2011-10-24 20:52:09 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: we had sieve algorithims, but not the general number field sieve.
1148 2011-10-24 20:52:14 <gmaxwell> Based on what stuff?
1149 2011-10-24 20:52:22 <Matt_von_Mises> Primes.
1150 2011-10-24 20:52:30 <Matt_von_Mises> And can be cracked with factorisation.
1151 2011-10-24 20:52:31 <copumpkin> Matt_von_Mises: its difficulty stems from the believed difficulty of factorizing, yeah
1152 2011-10-24 20:52:32 <gmaxwell> Sure.
1153 2011-10-24 20:52:41 <copumpkin> other algorithms rely on the difficulty of discrete logs
1154 2011-10-24 20:52:48 <copumpkin> factoring?
1155 2011-10-24 20:52:52 <gmaxwell> Just like ECC can be cracked with logarithms.
1156 2011-10-24 20:53:04 <Matt_von_Mises> What was my original question?
1157 2011-10-24 20:53:17 <copumpkin> lamport signatures can be cracked with neither of those!
1158 2011-10-24 20:53:19 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh yes, if you could make two private keys for one public
1159 2011-10-24 20:53:29 <cjdelisl1> I find that everything asymetric comes down to finding the intersection between 2 discrete periodic functions
1160 2011-10-24 20:53:32 <copumpkin> there are more esoteric schemes that allow groupiness
1161 2011-10-24 20:53:35 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm sure someone will invent an algorithm that can do that someday if not already.
1162 2011-10-24 20:53:37 <copumpkin> but the common ones don't allow that
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1164 2011-10-24 20:53:50 <copumpkin> Matt_von_Mises: there's group and ring signatures
1165 2011-10-24 20:54:00 <copumpkin> which allow certain groups of people to sign something and anyone to verify them
1166 2011-10-24 20:54:04 <gmaxwell> <3 lamport signatures.
1167 2011-10-24 20:54:23 <rjk2> is it possible to have a hash that reverses itself (a la rot13)?
1168 2011-10-24 20:54:27 <copumpkin> in a group signature, there's a group master who can issue signing keys
1169 2011-10-24 20:54:27 <Matt_von_Mises> Signitures that require all signitures to be valid for a single public key?
1170 2011-10-24 20:54:28 <gmaxwell> Lamport signatures are the only asymetric crypto you can explain to a complete idiot and have them really understand it and trust it for the right reasons. :)
1171 2011-10-24 20:54:39 <copumpkin> and you can't tell which member of the group signed something
1172 2011-10-24 20:54:41 <Matt_von_Mises> All signitures to be used in encryption I mean
1173 2011-10-24 20:54:42 <gmaxwell> rjk2: You just named one. ;)
1174 2011-10-24 20:54:43 <copumpkin> just that some member of the group signed it
1175 2011-10-24 20:54:57 <copumpkin> except the group manager can deanonymize the signatures if he chooses to
1176 2011-10-24 20:55:00 <rjk2> i know i mean like rsa or sha256 or whatever
1177 2011-10-24 20:55:06 <Matt_von_Mises> But nothing that is compatible with bitcoin, I take it?
1178 2011-10-24 20:55:13 <gmaxwell> rjk2: we'd consider it secure if so.
1179 2011-10-24 20:55:20 <copumpkin> well, how would you like to apply it to bitcoin?
1180 2011-10-24 20:55:21 <rjk2> right i see
1181 2011-10-24 20:55:21 <helo> rjk2: the length of the hash would always have to be the same as the length of the data
1182 2011-10-24 20:55:22 <gmaxwell> er insecure!
1183 2011-10-24 20:55:33 <rjk2> lol k
1184 2011-10-24 20:55:39 <Matt_von_Mises> For the escrow services, two private keys but one public key
1185 2011-10-24 20:55:41 <cjdelisl1> rjk2: there is an inverse of sha256, we just don't know it
1186 2011-10-24 20:55:42 <copumpkin> http://crypto.stanford.edu/pbc/sig/
1187 2011-10-24 20:55:59 <copumpkin> cjdelisl1: there can be no inverse :P
1188 2011-10-24 20:56:02 <helo> cjdelisl1: is there? it destroys some information...
1189 2011-10-24 20:56:11 <cjdelisl1> for 1 round it doesn't
1190 2011-10-24 20:56:33 <cjdelisl1> or no, nvm
1191 2011-10-24 20:56:35 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: I didn't catch what you were asking, but you can have escrow signatures just by requring multiple signatures.
1192 2011-10-24 20:56:45 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: and we already have support for this in the bitcoin system.
1193 2011-10-24 20:56:55 <helo> that would be infinite compression :)
1194 2011-10-24 20:57:02 <Matt_von_Mises> But the current client cannot send to wallets that have two signitures apparently… this is correct?
1195 2011-10-24 20:57:02 <cjdelisl1> you could find the inverse if only <=256 bits of input are given and the rest are constant
1196 2011-10-24 20:57:31 <Matt_von_Mises> Only wallets that have one public key?
1197 2011-10-24 20:57:45 <copumpkin> cjdelisl1: you're assuming the function is injective?
1198 2011-10-24 20:57:59 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: Yes though it's just a client/ui limitation.  (well, and we need to specify a new address type used to share multisig addresses)
1199 2011-10-24 20:58:04 <cjdelisl1> copumpkin: right you are
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1201 2011-10-24 20:58:20 <Matt_von_Mises> THat is what I meant, so the limitation is with backwards compatibility with the client.
1202 2011-10-24 20:58:20 <copumpkin> I could conceivably have two short messages (under 256 bits) that hash to the same value
1203 2011-10-24 20:58:33 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: but the network can already process and validate multisig transactions, and there are existing patches to add the client support to generate them.
1204 2011-10-24 20:58:34 <copumpkin> don't hold your breath trying to find them though
1205 2011-10-24 20:58:51 <cjdelisl1> but I believe that to be a safe assumption since it would damage collision resistance
1206 2011-10-24 20:58:54 <copumpkin> we could definitely have a right inverse
1207 2011-10-24 20:59:00 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm sure it wont be a problem is people keep up-to-date
1208 2011-10-24 20:59:00 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: backwards compatible with what though? since the network already supports them only the people that want to use them would have to upgrade.
1209 2011-10-24 20:59:12 <gmaxwell> Well, people don't— but they should. :)
1210 2011-10-24 20:59:19 <Matt_von_Mises> But there will be a period where some people can't send coins to people because they don't have the up-to-date software
1211 2011-10-24 20:59:42 <Matt_von_Mises> To people with the two-key wallets
1212 2011-10-24 21:00:24 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: presumably you'd also have single key addresses, and perhaps some automation to automatically move single key coins to multikey identities when you get them.
1213 2011-10-24 21:01:02 <Matt_von_Mises> Yes, that would require two transactions though, wouldn't it?
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1215 2011-10-24 21:03:03 <Matt_von_Mises> THese new wallet addresses will need a new brand so people don't get confused.
1216 2011-10-24 21:03:09 <Matt_von_Mises> Bitcoin Plus
1217 2011-10-24 21:03:17 Ramen has joined
1218 2011-10-24 21:03:34 <iddo> i think just transaction output with 2-of-2 ?
1219 2011-10-24 21:04:31 <Matt_von_Mises> Yes but the current client isn't compatible. It would send coins into the dark reaches of cyberspace, never to be seen again.
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1222 2011-10-24 21:05:53 pumpkin has joined
1223 2011-10-24 21:06:04 <iddo> yeah client would need to be updated, but there's already protocol support for CHECKMULTISIG opcode with n-of-m checking
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1226 2011-10-24 21:07:29 <iddo> all the old miners will handle it correctly i think?
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1232 2011-10-24 21:16:00 <gmaxwell> iddo: yes.
1233 2011-10-24 21:16:09 <gmaxwell> not just miners— every node validates the blockchain.
1234 2011-10-24 21:16:14 <gmaxwell> The client isn't just a client, you know. :)
1235 2011-10-24 21:16:31 <gmaxwell> 13:51 < Matt_von_Mises> Yes but the current client isn't compatible. It would send coins into the dark reaches of cyberspace, never to be seen again.
1236 2011-10-24 21:16:35 <gmaxwell> !!
1237 2011-10-24 21:16:35 <gmaxwell> No it wouldn't.
1238 2011-10-24 21:16:41 <gmaxwell> Jesus, don't fud things that don't even exist. :)
1239 2011-10-24 21:16:49 <Matt_von_Mises> It wouldn't?
1240 2011-10-24 21:17:07 <gmaxwell> It wouldn't.
1241 2011-10-24 21:17:18 <Matt_von_Mises> If you send to an invalid address, don't the bitcoins vanish?
1242 2011-10-24 21:17:21 <gmaxwell> No.
1243 2011-10-24 21:17:30 <gmaxwell> The invalid address is just rejected.
1244 2011-10-24 21:17:32 <Matt_von_Mises> Who told me that one?
1245 2011-10-24 21:17:49 <gmaxwell> You can construct addresses that have no owners, but the addresses have special form.
1246 2011-10-24 21:18:06 <gmaxwell> E.g. all bitcoin addresses right now begin with a 1 and have a 32-bit check value which must be correct.
1247 2011-10-24 21:18:14 <Matt_von_Mises> When you create a wallet, how is the first address created broadcast to all nodes?
1248 2011-10-24 21:18:20 <Matt_von_Mises> So they know valid addresses?
1249 2011-10-24 21:18:22 AStove has quit ()
1250 2011-10-24 21:18:27 <gmaxwell> The new addresses for multisigs would begin with another digit and wouldn't pass the same check scheme.
1251 2011-10-24 21:18:43 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: no, you can tell if an address is valid or not simply syntatically.
1252 2011-10-24 21:18:46 <Matt_von_Mises> Ah, so it has some checking code in it.
1253 2011-10-24 21:18:55 <gmaxwell> An address with more data is obviously invalid and would just be rejected. :)
1254 2011-10-24 21:20:00 <gmaxwell> If you generate a random string with a 1 at the beginning and of the right length then there is a one in four billion chance that its "valid", and if you send coins to it, they'll be unrecoverable.
1255 2011-10-24 21:20:23 <gmaxwell> But the new addresses wouldn't begin with a 1, wouldn't be the same length, and wouldn't have the same check scheme. So its all good. :)
1256 2011-10-24 21:20:48 <gmaxwell> Fortunately all these things were forseen as part of the design. All hail Satoshi Nakamoto.
1257 2011-10-24 21:21:41 <Matt_von_Mises> Just a shame Satoshi had to program it in C++.
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1260 2011-10-24 21:22:00 <Matt_von_Mises> Wouldn't the addresses be hashed to the same length?
1261 2011-10-24 21:22:05 <rjk2> a shame?
1262 2011-10-24 21:22:06 <Matt_von_Mises> An address with more data?
1263 2011-10-24 21:22:25 <Matt_von_Mises> I might be able to finally figure out bitcoin if it was in C and not C++
1264 2011-10-24 21:22:50 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: depends on how we implement it. We could do it so it was the same length or not.
1265 2011-10-24 21:22:52 <Matt_von_Mises> And if it was clear and used standard C as much as possible.
1266 2011-10-24 21:23:18 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: it would be a LOT larger in C.  I'm a C die hard myself, and I pretty much hate C++ but I still think the right decision was made here.
1267 2011-10-24 21:23:35 <gmaxwell> There is a lot of wheel reinventing that would be required in C which is helpfully avoided by using c++ w/ boost.
1268 2011-10-24 21:23:42 <Matt_von_Mises> What about portability?
1269 2011-10-24 21:23:44 * copumpkin coughs
1270 2011-10-24 21:23:57 <Matt_von_Mises> More devices support C than C++ right?
1271 2011-10-24 21:24:03 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: hell, it's pretty much completely unportable already due to code that would be identical in C.
1272 2011-10-24 21:24:06 <Matt_von_Mises> C is more popular (apparently)
1273 2011-10-24 21:24:25 <copumpkin> it wouldn't really work on embedded devices anyway now
1274 2011-10-24 21:24:31 <copumpkin> and all larger devices support both
1275 2011-10-24 21:24:51 <gmaxwell> (all the block hashing code has endianness assumptions, but thats all basic C functionality there)
1276 2011-10-24 21:24:57 <Matt_von_Mises> I guess embedded devices are too slow?
1277 2011-10-24 21:25:08 Kristal has joined
1278 2011-10-24 21:25:20 <gmaxwell> You want a lite client for embedded devices and the official client is a full bitcoin node, not a lite client.
1279 2011-10-24 21:25:41 <Matt_von_Mises> Embedded devices could run a C version fine?
1280 2011-10-24 21:25:48 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: speed is less of an issue than storage right now. Full clients need the full blockchain, or at least a pruned version of it.
1281 2011-10-24 21:25:51 <Matt_von_Mises> A lite C version
1282 2011-10-24 21:26:11 <gmaxwell> There is a java lite client targeted for phones. Presumably it works, I've never used it myself.
1283 2011-10-24 21:26:26 <Matt_von_Mises> Cars have embedded mobile phones. Embedded bitcoin wallets for cars!
1284 2011-10-24 21:26:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Make your posh car worth even more.
1285 2011-10-24 21:26:58 <Matt_von_Mises> … with the password included
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1291 2011-10-24 21:36:48 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it works ok
1292 2011-10-24 21:36:56 <cande> Matt_von_Mises, just drive throug the road tolls and pay with bitcoins instantly
1293 2011-10-24 21:37:22 <jrmithdobbs> cande: ya i'm not waiting an 10-20 min at a toll booth for txns to confirm, sorry
1294 2011-10-24 21:37:30 <cande> haha
1295 2011-10-24 21:37:41 <cande> they will just have to trust your 0confirm transaction
1296 2011-10-24 21:38:19 <cande> they have your car plate if you try to double spend them
1297 2011-10-24 21:38:25 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r0442ffb86a03 / (4 files in 2 dirs): Storage modules use references not inheritance for sharing modules.
1298 2011-10-24 21:38:34 <gavinandresen> cande: was about to say the same thing...
1299 2011-10-24 21:39:44 <cande> gavinandresen, :)
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1301 2011-10-24 21:42:01 <cande> gavinandresen, you have any tip for how to make 0confirm transactions more secure?
1302 2011-10-24 21:43:01 <jrmithdobbs> cande: actually, that's a good point, i guess that'd actually be a good use case for 0 conf txns
1303 2011-10-24 21:43:05 <gavinandresen> How big a transaction?  From who? For real goods or virtual goods?
1304 2011-10-24 21:43:13 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: see toll example
1305 2011-10-24 21:43:27 <Matt_von_Mises> cande: "Matt_von_Mises, just drive throug the road tolls and pay with bitcoins instantly" That would be nice.
1306 2011-10-24 21:43:47 <gavinandresen> Do you know anything about the user's identity?  Could you sue them if they double-spend?
1307 2011-10-24 21:43:49 <jrmithdobbs> cande: that's the first good example of 0 conf txns i've seen, in fact
1308 2011-10-24 21:44:03 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: obv. they have toll cameras and shit
1309 2011-10-24 21:44:12 <jrmithdobbs> so they have your license plate
1310 2011-10-24 21:44:13 <Matt_von_Mises> WE were talking about this a little while ago...
1311 2011-10-24 21:44:20 <Matt_von_Mises> The third party verification.
1312 2011-10-24 21:44:26 <gavinandresen> jrmithdobbs: yes, tolls would be an excellent place to accept 0-conf txns
1313 2011-10-24 21:44:34 <Matt_von_Mises> Or maybe you assumed I wasn't refering to that
1314 2011-10-24 21:44:54 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: ya just commenting that it's the first time it's been brought up where I don't think the use case is completely contrived nonsense ;p
1315 2011-10-24 21:44:56 <Matt_von_Mises> Send the coins with double signiture
1316 2011-10-24 21:45:04 <Matt_von_Mises> Might take a few extra seconds
1317 2011-10-24 21:45:06 <jrmithdobbs> gavinandresen: and could actually work
1318 2011-10-24 21:45:16 <cande> gavinandresen, for real goods in a coffey shop
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1320 2011-10-24 21:46:03 <gavinandresen> cande: coffee shop should use a bitcoin payment processing service that figures out how to minimize danger of double-spends
1321 2011-10-24 21:46:18 <cande> mm yes
1322 2011-10-24 21:46:33 <gavinandresen> (e.g. by being well-connected to the network and waiting... oh, 3 seconds... to see if there is a double-spend attempt).
1323 2011-10-24 21:46:34 <cande> gavinandresen, do they exist ?
1324 2011-10-24 21:47:03 <gavinandresen> Not yet, as far as I know.  Chicken-and-egg problem to creating one....
1325 2011-10-24 21:47:12 wasabi1 has joined
1326 2011-10-24 21:47:36 <cande> well, maybe i have to do that
1327 2011-10-24 21:47:46 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1328 2011-10-24 21:47:48 <Matt_von_Mises> Take photos of customers.
1329 2011-10-24 21:47:57 <gmaxwell> IIRC there is a restaurant in NYC that takes BTC.
1330 2011-10-24 21:48:02 <Matt_von_Mises> And record each one
1331 2011-10-24 21:48:09 <Matt_von_Mises> Not a good idea that one
1332 2011-10-24 21:48:32 <cande> you have to finish your coffey and say goodbye before you leave :)
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1335 2011-10-24 21:49:00 <gmaxwell> There are lots of things you can do. For one, espeically right now, you could just eat the risk. The extra traffic you can get from people interested in the novelty would pay for the pretty unlikely case of small losses.
1336 2011-10-24 21:49:18 <cande> yes,
1337 2011-10-24 21:49:40 <cande> that is what shops already do today with shoplifters
1338 2011-10-24 21:50:09 <cande> calculated risks
1339 2011-10-24 21:50:12 <gmaxwell> They could probably also find people with lots of BTC to buy their risk super cheap, especially if they take basic security measures.
1340 2011-10-24 21:50:26 TD has joined
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1344 2011-10-24 21:54:10 <Matt_von_Mises> THere is the chargeback on debit/credit cards also
1345 2011-10-24 21:54:19 LightRider has quit ()
1346 2011-10-24 21:54:25 <Matt_von_Mises> THe only advantage with cards is you know the identity of the person.
1347 2011-10-24 21:55:02 <Ukto> is there some way to get teh bitcoin gui to show transaction id ?
1348 2011-10-24 21:55:03 <Matt_von_Mises> Also bitcoin fraud could be automated and easy
1349 2011-10-24 21:55:12 <gmaxwell> You could ask for a copy of their drivers license for bitcoin transactions.. not ideal but not really any less private than a credit card tn.
1350 2011-10-24 21:55:41 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: you can't automate fraud at a walk up counter.  The places you can automate are shipping goods, and for that you can wait for confirms before shipment.
1351 2011-10-24 21:56:07 <Matt_von_Mises> Can;t you automate the software to double spend?
1352 2011-10-24 21:56:21 <gmaxwell> ...
1353 2011-10-24 21:56:23 <Matt_von_Mises> So whenever you buy it spends into your waller beforehand?
1354 2011-10-24 21:56:28 <Matt_von_Mises> wallet
1355 2011-10-24 21:56:37 <Matt_von_Mises> And you hope your transaction wins?
1356 2011-10-24 21:56:45 <gmaxwell> oh sure, but you still have to go make the transaction manually.
1357 2011-10-24 21:56:54 <Matt_von_Mises> Manually?
1358 2011-10-24 21:57:06 <Matt_von_Mises> Customer bitcoin software?
1359 2011-10-24 21:57:08 <Matt_von_Mises> Custom
1360 2011-10-24 21:57:09 <gmaxwell> and that kind of lazy double spend is significantly mitigated with good network monitoring.
1361 2011-10-24 21:57:40 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: No, I mean if you go buy coffee you still have to walk in and buy the coffee, risk getting your picture on a security camera, perform only so many attacks per day etc.
1362 2011-10-24 21:58:05 <Matt_von_Mises> If they catch you out there and then, I can see it being a problem
1363 2011-10-24 21:58:08 <gmaxwell> If you go buy from $online_shop you could automate that, but they can just delay shipment until they have a few confirms— which wouldn't delay the purchasing process at all.
1364 2011-10-24 21:58:24 <Matt_von_Mises> THanks for the purchase, bye bye *run*
1365 2011-10-24 21:58:44 <Matt_von_Mises> Online shiping is simple enough
1366 2011-10-24 21:58:52 <Matt_von_Mises> It's not like you ship immediately.
1367 2011-10-24 21:59:18 <jrmithdobbs> hah i like the "3 billion devices run java" banner on the new jvm update
1368 2011-10-24 21:59:26 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: well, almost — tell that to the exchanges.
1369 2011-10-24 21:59:32 <jrmithdobbs> we'll just ignore that 2+ billion of those have been decomissioned for a decade or more
1370 2011-10-24 21:59:47 <Matt_von_Mises> THe excahnges don't ship products
1371 2011-10-24 21:59:47 <jrmithdobbs> there is no man behind the curtain ;p
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1373 2011-10-24 22:00:00 <Matt_von_Mises> Deliver physcially anything
1374 2011-10-24 22:00:03 <cande> Matt_von_Mises, no you don't know the identity of the card user
1375 2011-10-24 22:00:06 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: they ship irreversable cryptocurrencies in some cases! :)
1376 2011-10-24 22:00:16 <gmaxwell> cande: it's written on the card and on the reciept.
1377 2011-10-24 22:00:34 <gmaxwell> cande: and whatever you don't know, you can get from the card company in the event of a dispute.
1378 2011-10-24 22:00:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and on the magstripe/chip data
1379 2011-10-24 22:01:04 <jrmithdobbs> in fact, the entirety of billing address on file when card was printed is on the magstripe iirc
1380 2011-10-24 22:01:07 <jrmithdobbs> depends on issuer
1381 2011-10-24 22:02:03 <gmaxwell> Yea, so showing your passport/drivers license in order to buy instantly with bitcoin isn't ideal, but it's no worse than the credit cards. .. and it's probably pretty similar from a fraud exposure perspective too.
1382 2011-10-24 22:02:07 <cande> gmaxwell, when you double spend with VISA, it's usually stolen
1383 2011-10-24 22:02:08 <casascius> magstripes dont have addresses not enough bits for that
1384 2011-10-24 22:02:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: technically you're supposed to have to with cc's too, after all
1385 2011-10-24 22:02:24 <jrmithdobbs> just noone does it
1386 2011-10-24 22:02:30 <gmaxwell> (since if there is a dispute the credit card company will pretty much always just leave the vendor holding the bag- "go sue 'em if you want")
1387 2011-10-24 22:02:32 <jrmithdobbs> and they get hit by fraud constantly because of this
1388 2011-10-24 22:02:33 <cande> and then you have 1-3 bankdays before the transaction is marked invalid :)
1389 2011-10-24 22:02:41 <casascius> magstripes have card number, your name, expiration date, and maybe a dozen other characters so systems can distinguish swipes from keyed transactions
1390 2011-10-24 22:03:03 <casascius> bank cards usually have 2 tracks encoded: one at 75 bits per inch, the other at 210 bits per inch.  cardholder name is only on the 210
1391 2011-10-24 22:03:15 <casascius> everything else is redundantly encoded on both tracks
1392 2011-10-24 22:03:39 <gmaxwell> I guess thats why I had a card stop working for airline checkin (reads your name) but still work for purchases.
1393 2011-10-24 22:04:54 <casascius> lots of equipemtn (especially older) only reads one track
1394 2011-10-24 22:05:06 <cande> so bitcoin is faar ahead of VISA with comming to detect fraud
1395 2011-10-24 22:05:58 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin has lots of resistance, but it hast to— it has no backstop in case the resistance fails.
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1397 2011-10-24 22:06:19 <gmaxwell> In the case of visa there are more tools available should the system let fraud through.
1398 2011-10-24 22:06:58 <cande> yes
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1400 2011-10-24 22:07:28 <cande> and those system will always make VISA expensive, and bitcoin cheap
1401 2011-10-24 22:08:09 <gmaxwell> Hm. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
1402 2011-10-24 22:08:48 <cande> condoms?
1403 2011-10-24 22:09:25 <cande> yes, a 0confirm tx fraud service, that i would pay for
1404 2011-10-24 22:09:50 <jrmithdobbs> Ukto: what
1405 2011-10-24 22:10:24 <gmaxwell> fraud service or anti-fraud service? :)
1406 2011-10-24 22:10:49 <jrmithdobbs> cande: ya magstripe cards are fucking scarey as shit when you actually know how they work :(
1407 2011-10-24 22:10:57 <jrmithdobbs> worst idea ever
1408 2011-10-24 22:11:12 <cande> gmaxwell, haha.. yes both when i think of it
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1410 2011-10-24 22:11:23 <jrmithdobbs> cande: btw, I know zip code is one of things on one of the tracks
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1412 2011-10-24 22:11:31 <jrmithdobbs> cande: that's how gas pumps verify
1413 2011-10-24 22:11:36 <jrmithdobbs> (and why they ask for zip)
1414 2011-10-24 22:11:37 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: no man, it's totally safe, we'll just have people type in the last four digits of the plastic card in the machine when they make a txn from the swipe!
1415 2011-10-24 22:12:12 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: Hm I didn't think they actually verified it- I figured they started asking so that people wouldn't keep using credit (which they pay more for) because they didn't want to type the debit pin.
1416 2011-10-24 22:12:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you seen the fun things where you can encode them with $10 worth of parts from radio shack and ~30 minutes of twisting wire to make the ghetto eletromagnet that you're going to plug into the headphone jack of your ipod?
1417 2011-10-24 22:12:53 <cande> in sweden you always have to put in your 4 digit pin in machines, no zippers
1418 2011-10-24 22:12:54 <jrmithdobbs> s/eletromagnet/electromagnet/
1419 2011-10-24 22:13:01 <gmaxwell> ... why would you do that when you can buy the proper tools for like $50? :)
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1422 2011-10-24 22:13:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: because you can read/wipe/write with this
1423 2011-10-24 22:13:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's a cc cloner in your pocket! (yes, there is an app for that)
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1425 2011-10-24 22:14:19 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: there's actually seriously an app in the app store for the reading portion
1426 2011-10-24 22:14:33 <gmaxwell> sure. seems simple enough.
1427 2011-10-24 22:14:43 <gmaxwell> I guess the variable speed decode logic is a bit tricky.
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1429 2011-10-24 22:15:01 <gmaxwell> I guess the encoding has regular pulses to make it easier or something.
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1431 2011-10-24 22:15:06 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: some company (i'd have to go track down the article) released a small device so people could use touch's as cc terminals and someone else was like "you know, this'd work the other way around too with a better magnet ...."
1432 2011-10-24 22:15:09 <gmaxwell> or a preamble.
1433 2011-10-24 22:15:47 <jrmithdobbs> i thought it was pretty cool that they did it all through the audio jack and not the 30pin
1434 2011-10-24 22:16:00 <jrmithdobbs> you basically just play a specially crafted audio stream
1435 2011-10-24 22:16:10 <gmaxwell> sure. what do you think the tape contains? :)
1436 2011-10-24 22:16:23 <gmaxwell> (how 'audio' it is just depends on how fast the card moves)
1437 2011-10-24 22:16:27 <jrmithdobbs> oh ya, I know, just not really something you think of until you see someone do it
1438 2011-10-24 22:16:30 <jrmithdobbs> heh
1439 2011-10-24 22:17:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: at least, for me, "credit card duplicator" is not the first thnig i think when i see a pocketable device with an 1/8" audio jack ;p
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1441 2011-10-24 22:18:08 <gmaxwell> yea, of course not. It's a pocket oscilliscope.
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