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  22 2011-10-27 00:38:49 <graingert> !later tell BlueMatt that's true but I thought ~bitcoin was a group? Perhaps there should be informal sub groups focusing on release/dev/daily build streams
  23 2011-10-27 00:38:49 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  43 2011-10-27 01:19:50 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
  44 2011-10-27 01:19:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 150756 | Current Difficulty: 1468195.4272208 | Next Difficulty At Block: 151199 | Next Difficulty In: 443 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 18 hours, 11 minutes, and 59 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1236664.43277946 | Estimated Percent Change: -15.7697667592
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  58 2011-10-27 01:36:13 <NullMoogleCable> hi
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  61 2011-10-27 01:39:38 <cjdelisle> ho
  62 2011-10-27 01:39:53 <NullMoogleCable> so im trying to figure out how i can compile cpuminer to run better on my arm system
  63 2011-10-27 01:40:12 <cjdelisle> how many systems do you have?
  64 2011-10-27 01:40:38 <NullMoogleCable> about 4 diferent arm based systems i want to play with
  65 2011-10-27 01:40:48 <cjdelisle> hmm
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  67 2011-10-27 01:41:19 <cjdelisle> just so you know, it's not going to be profitable unless you had like a botnet of a million and a half arm systems
  68 2011-10-27 01:41:39 <cjdelisle> but for fun, that's cool..
  69 2011-10-27 01:41:54 <NullMoogleCable> I was thinking more of using it as a benchmark
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  71 2011-10-27 01:42:28 <cjdelisle> hmm
  72 2011-10-27 01:42:54 <cjdelisle> it's not a good indicator of system performance since it requires lots of bit twiddling and very little state is kept
  73 2011-10-27 01:43:20 <cjdelisle> *not a good indicator of overall system perfornamce
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 104 2011-10-27 02:23:38 <magma_> When nodes work on a block that has the same transactions this is a bit redundant, no?
 105 2011-10-27 02:24:34 <gmaxwell> magma_: No.
 106 2011-10-27 02:25:49 <gmaxwell> The actual validation of the transactions is quite cheap compared to the process of finding the solution to make the block good.
 107 2011-10-27 02:26:17 <gmaxwell> And the fact that everyone validate the transactions is why the system is decenteralized— no one trusts that anyone else did the checking.
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 116 2011-10-27 02:48:15 <Davincij15> tcatm: thanks
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 147 2011-10-27 04:27:11 <orange-hand> Hi, does anyone know of any theoretical way to do a decentralised escrow?
 148 2011-10-27 04:27:35 casascius has joined
 149 2011-10-27 04:28:01 <casascius> quick question, who runs the web content at bitcoin.org?
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 155 2011-10-27 04:39:35 <jgarzik> casascius: tcatm, with approval from devs + a few other trusted people like theymos
 156 2011-10-27 04:41:07 <Davincij15> in the bitcoin code under the wallet.cpp file if remove the ablity to send coins would that prevent me from finding blocks?
 157 2011-10-27 04:41:33 <casascius> Wanted to propose that given to the idea that one can now go to Memory Dealers and buy bitcoins with credit cards and PayPal.  (maybe not advertising MD directly, but definitely including "credit card" and some sort of link that eventually gets people there)
 158 2011-10-27 04:42:11 <Davincij15> It does not look like it but some times some some deveolpers like to be cute and execut methods by their memory location.
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 163 2011-10-27 04:45:24 <casascius> Assuming he doesn't get burned or shut down, that's a pretty big deal
 164 2011-10-27 04:45:48 <casascius> He has a decent chance of success, both because of his existing business volume, and the fact that he's only shipping physical coins.
 165 2011-10-27 04:45:58 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 166 2011-10-27 04:45:58 <Davincij15> orange-hand: decentralized escro would only work between bitcoin based currency because the electronic curency you use today exits at the will of a bank and legislation not by any kind of rules of reality.
 167 2011-10-27 04:46:06 <nanotube> orange-hand: yes, just put in a transaction that requires 2 of 3 signatures to redeem, with 3 potentials being buyer, seller, and escrow agent.
 168 2011-10-27 04:46:09 copumpkin has joined
 169 2011-10-27 04:46:42 <nanotube> so either buyer and seller agree to release, or escrow agent, after reviewing the case, sides with either buyer or seller to release
 170 2011-10-27 04:47:10 <orange-hand> ok very nice
 171 2011-10-27 04:47:14 <orange-hand> is this implemented?
 172 2011-10-27 04:47:18 <nanotube> no :)
 173 2011-10-27 04:47:20 <Davincij15> nanotube release what? bitcoins dollars?
 174 2011-10-27 04:47:27 <amiller> as for a theoretical solution orange-hand
 175 2011-10-27 04:47:28 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 176 2011-10-27 04:47:34 <amiller> if the 'terms of release' can be defined in a very precise computable way
 177 2011-10-27 04:47:37 <nanotube> orange-hand: if you manually make such a transaction, and mine it into a block, it will work
 178 2011-10-27 04:47:42 <amiller> such as a message "BEARS WIN" signed by a particular key
 179 2011-10-27 04:47:46 <nanotube> but the default client won't let you create it
 180 2011-10-27 04:47:49 <amiller> you can use the blockchain itself as the escrow agent
 181 2011-10-27 04:47:50 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: well, its kinda implemented. There is a patch. The bitcoin _network_ already supports it.
 182 2011-10-27 04:47:54 <nanotube> Davincij15: no, release bitcoins.
 183 2011-10-27 04:48:11 <nanotube> the bitcoin network of course has no ability to affect dollar release
 184 2011-10-27 04:48:17 <orange-hand> oh very nice
 185 2011-10-27 04:48:30 <orange-hand> I am writing a paper on laundry methods
 186 2011-10-27 04:48:42 <nanotube> use tide, and color-safe bleach
 187 2011-10-27 04:48:50 <nanotube> heh
 188 2011-10-27 04:48:50 <amiller> orange-hand do you know anything about blindbitcoin.com
 189 2011-10-27 04:49:07 <orange-hand> and one interesting solution I thought of was chaining laundries in an onion
 190 2011-10-27 04:49:18 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: Before you write a paper on "laundry methods" please read up about what money laundering actually is, so I don't have to flame you into the earth.
 191 2011-10-27 04:49:34 <orange-hand> I'll have you guys review it
 192 2011-10-27 04:49:38 <orange-hand> so don't worry :D
 193 2011-10-27 04:49:54 <nanotube> well, it would be better to review something written by someone who knows what money laundering is :)
 194 2011-10-27 04:49:55 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: most bitcoiners think that bouncing funds between a few wallets is laundering.. but that actually has very little relation to what money laundering is in the real world.
 195 2011-10-27 04:49:58 <amiller> orange-hand, you should look up Chaumian blinding and the Lucre library
 196 2011-10-27 04:49:59 <orange-hand> amiller, no I don't, and I can't seem to reach the site
 197 2011-10-27 04:50:38 <amiller> orange-hand, well blindbitcoin was a failed/ultimately-compromised attempt at making a bitcoin 'anonymizing' service using chaumian blinding
 198 2011-10-27 04:50:47 <orange-hand> gmaxwell, yes, I am doing comprehensive (I think) research on the subject
 199 2011-10-27 04:50:48 <gmaxwell> We don't even really have a name for doing that (the bouncing thing) with cash, because its something that people constantly do with cash anyways. E.g. when you go buy a stick of gum with a $50 and get back two $20s, a $5 and a few ones.
 200 2011-10-27 04:51:54 <gmaxwell> I think it's actually fair to say that _true_ money laundering is currently impossible in bitcoin, because there are basically no high volume cashlike businesses to run the funds through. The only thing close is the exchanges, and you can be sure they're going to do nothing to protect your privacy against law enforcement. (nor should we as a community want them to)
 201 2011-10-27 04:51:54 <orange-hand> from what I've read, what "laundering" is commonly done with bitcoins is really meant to be "layering"
 202 2011-10-27 04:52:20 <orange-hand> gmaxwell, I have a partial solution to that
 203 2011-10-27 04:52:21 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: yes, I suppose so. But without the final placement ::shrugs::
 204 2011-10-27 04:52:24 <orange-hand> incentive-based laundering
 205 2011-10-27 04:52:39 <orange-hand> that is, pay people to "invest"
 206 2011-10-27 04:52:54 <orange-hand> part of the commission could give a high 1 day investment return
 207 2011-10-27 04:53:02 <orange-hand> say, .3%
 208 2011-10-27 04:53:04 <amiller> mix-servers can be paid for anonymizing service
 209 2011-10-27 04:53:06 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: I think people already know that one incentive to run bitcoin businesses is that you'll get more business than you deserve due to people trying to cycle bitcoin income that they'd rather keep private…
 210 2011-10-27 04:53:07 <orange-hand> out of .9%
 211 2011-10-27 04:53:19 <orange-hand> haha
 212 2011-10-27 04:53:21 <amiller> even blindbitcoin took a small commission
 213 2011-10-27 04:53:31 <orange-hand> amiller, how did they fail?
 214 2011-10-27 04:53:47 <gmaxwell> amiller: "mixing" is pretty much pointless. And duh you pay them... classical money laundering if pretty cash inefficient, you'll get back less than half you put in, unless you own the laundering infrastructure too.
 215 2011-10-27 04:54:35 <gmaxwell> There is still the mixer paradox: If your mixer is some uber anonymous party operating via hidden service .... then the rational thing to do will be to grow their bussiness to a comfortable size and then rip everyone off.
 216 2011-10-27 04:54:59 <gmaxwell> If the mixer is someone you can identify so you could send ninjas to beat them if they did this— then your enemy will send ninjas to deanonymize you.
 217 2011-10-27 04:55:14 <orange-hand> heh
 218 2011-10-27 04:55:23 <nanotube> gmaxwell: the paradox is solved by elevating the mixer fee
 219 2011-10-27 04:55:31 <orange-hand> I am trying to compile all the desired properties of a mixing/laundering service
 220 2011-10-27 04:55:33 <amiller> well a properly implemented mixer provides a 'proof' of the correctness of its mixing
 221 2011-10-27 04:55:37 <amiller> and the blinding part, is done by the client
 222 2011-10-27 04:55:43 <nanotube> so that the ongoing revenue from operating the mixer is higher than the one-time lump sum from ripping people off
 223 2011-10-27 04:55:49 <orange-hand> and present multiple innovative solutions that partially solve some of those properties
 224 2011-10-27 04:56:04 <amiller> gmaxwell, so sure the mixer could leave with all the bitcions, but that wouldn't have to compromise your privacy, and they couldn't distinguish you to just rip off 'your' bitcoins
 225 2011-10-27 04:56:06 <gmaxwell> nanotube: yes, but it has to be quite high to do that, especailly since the mixer can so effectively hide the side of their standing pool.
 226 2011-10-27 04:56:45 <gmaxwell> amiller: the mixer can rob all of their customers at once, which is great.
 227 2011-10-27 04:57:12 <orange-hand> well, if you use the multiple signature transactions, the mixer can't steal, can it?
 228 2011-10-27 04:57:15 <nanotube> well, so say it is 10%. the present value of that would easily be greater than the one time ripoff.
 229 2011-10-27 04:57:19 <gmaxwell> Also, if your mixer figures out who you are — (after all you're not anonymous before the mixer or there wouldn't be a point for having a mixer) they can blackmail you.
 230 2011-10-27 04:57:24 <gmaxwell> nanotube: but its not a one time ripoff.
 231 2011-10-27 04:57:40 <nanotube> gmaxwell: start another mixer later?
 232 2011-10-27 04:57:54 <gmaxwell> nanotube: run them concurrently, and do the ripoff when the next in line is starting to pick up traffic.
 233 2011-10-27 04:58:00 <Davincij15> I did grep search of SendMoney and SendMoneyToBitcoinAddress none of these are used in generating blocks can anyone confirm this?
 234 2011-10-27 04:58:03 <nanotube> gmaxwell: right... i se. heh.
 235 2011-10-27 04:58:24 <gmaxwell> nanotube: their risk is only that they'll scare people away from mixing entirely.
 236 2011-10-27 04:58:29 <nanotube> orange-hand: no, but then you can steal from the mixer (get their coins, and fail to release yours?)
 237 2011-10-27 04:58:40 <amiller> maybe mixing is an activity you'd only want to participate in with your friends, web-of-trust style?
 238 2011-10-27 04:58:46 <nanotube> gmaxwell: indeed...
 239 2011-10-27 04:59:11 <nanotube> amiller: then it's not much of a mixer, since they can stick up your friends until they tell them who you are
 240 2011-10-27 04:59:12 <gmaxwell> amiller: nah, then you just identify a whole clique and you make them rat each other out.
 241 2011-10-27 04:59:46 <orange-hand> nanotube, in response to your question, the solution I am thinking of requires that I explain my theoretical mixing service scheme
 242 2011-10-27 04:59:47 <gmaxwell> Really the answer is that you simply _expect_ the mixer will be inefficient, that they'll rob you sometimes... and if your business model doesn't allow that, find a way to not need a mixer.
 243 2011-10-27 05:00:07 <nanotube> orange-hand: hehe ic. well then i'll look forward to reading about it in your paper, because i'm about to go to sleep :)
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 245 2011-10-27 05:00:18 <orange-hand> heh, kk
 246 2011-10-27 05:00:26 <orange-hand> gn
 247 2011-10-27 05:00:32 <nanotube> o/ :)
 248 2011-10-27 05:00:39 <orange-hand> if anyone else is interested in hearing, I can continue
 249 2011-10-27 05:00:43 <amiller> cheers nanotube
 250 2011-10-27 05:00:47 <nanotube> gmaxwell: yep, costs of doing 'business' :)
 251 2011-10-27 05:00:57 <nanotube> amiller: ttyl
 252 2011-10-27 05:00:58 <gmaxwell> Mixing isn't actually all that important in any case. Making the funds appear to have a normal source is important. Because no matter how awesome your mixer is, if you're spending money the spending leaves evidence.
 253 2011-10-27 05:01:16 <gmaxwell> E.g. "Where did gmaxwell get that awesome boat from?"
 254 2011-10-27 05:01:27 <orange-hand> well, I am not interested in avoiding taxes
 255 2011-10-27 05:01:29 <gmaxwell> "er. I .. sold .. alpaca socks.. em"
 256 2011-10-27 05:01:35 <orange-hand> more interested in cleaning very dirty funds
 257 2011-10-27 05:01:45 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: laundering is usually not very tax efficient.
 258 2011-10-27 05:02:11 <gmaxwell> Here is how you clean "dirty funds" in bitcoin: Sell them to a horder who isn't planning on spending them any time this decade.
 259 2011-10-27 05:02:35 <orange-hand> lol
 260 2011-10-27 05:02:39 <orange-hand> hmm
 261 2011-10-27 05:02:43 <orange-hand> that is a good thought
 262 2011-10-27 05:02:45 <amiller> hm, that's pretty good
 263 2011-10-27 05:02:51 <orange-hand> lol
 264 2011-10-27 05:03:07 <orange-hand> I'll add that to the incentive based laundry
 265 2011-10-27 05:03:26 <orange-hand> higher incentive for coins that aren't used often?
 266 2011-10-27 05:04:21 <gmaxwell> Well, you do the txn with them anonymously using a 2 of 2 escrow transaction. Then they stir the coins for the next decade but carefully keep them out of exchanges and real businesses.
 267 2011-10-27 05:04:52 <orange-hand> that can easily be graphed though
 268 2011-10-27 05:05:44 <gmaxwell> nah. I mean, yes you can always tell the coins came from someplace dirty in the past, but by the time they get a name.. ten years will have passed and it won't be completely clear exactly when that person got them.
 269 2011-10-27 05:06:12 <orange-hand> yes but
 270 2011-10-27 05:06:22 <orange-hand> hoarders can only really be trusted once
 271 2011-10-27 05:06:33 <orange-hand> otherwise you will just be trading dirty money for dirty money
 272 2011-10-27 05:06:43 <gmaxwell> They're stupid if they send them to the exchange a month later— you tell them its dirty and thats why you're paying them a premium.
 273 2011-10-27 05:06:59 <gmaxwell> oh.. well true, but I suppose you could investigate the coins they propose to pay you with.
 274 2011-10-27 05:07:33 <gmaxwell> a key point here is that even if the horder eventually has to launder the dirty coin conventionally, they'd only have to do it in the _future_ when it would be presumably much easier to do that.
 275 2011-10-27 05:07:44 <gmaxwell> (or really... _possible_ to do that)
 276 2011-10-27 05:07:55 <gmaxwell> and besides, you shouldn't steal people's bitcoin. Shame on you.
 277 2011-10-27 05:08:08 <orange-hand> yes ... this is beginning to sound like an extension to the incentive based trading broker
 278 2011-10-27 05:08:08 <orange-hand> which is exactly one of my mixing solutions I am exploring
 279 2011-10-27 05:08:23 <orange-hand> I haven't
 280 2011-10-27 05:08:39 <orange-hand> I am exploring this for fun, and maybe future profit
 281 2011-10-27 05:09:08 <orange-hand> and also at the same time, make more tracing tools
 282 2011-10-27 05:09:11 <gmaxwell> The underworld is crappy business from a quality of life perspective.
 283 2011-10-27 05:09:36 <gmaxwell> If you're actually smart enough to do something useful in that domain— then you could do lots of completely above the board things in bitcoin that will be just as profitable if not moreso.
 284 2011-10-27 05:09:55 <orange-hand> well, I can make a profit by running an incentive based laundry and skimming a commission
 285 2011-10-27 05:09:57 agingstairway has joined
 286 2011-10-27 05:10:19 <orange-hand> perhaps I will
 287 2011-10-27 05:10:36 <orange-hand> this is just an idea I thought of, if you have profitable ideas, share them lol
 288 2011-10-27 05:11:07 <gmaxwell> And any loss of profitablity will be offset by (0) having a _much_ larger customer base, (1) not having to deal with criminals, who tend to be shit customers, (2) not making yourself a target for entities far more powerful than you, (3) not depriving yourself of the shared protective forces lawful activities enjoy (courts, cops, public irc channels)
 289 2011-10-27 05:11:53 * orange-hand ducks
 290 2011-10-27 05:12:41 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: you can basically take $RANDOM_POPULAR_THING and add "with bitcoin" and if bitcoin is successful then you have a good chance of being successful just through first mover advantage so long as you're basically competent. Obviously you can do better by being more intelligent than that.
 291 2011-10-27 05:12:48 <orange-hand> as I said, if you have any profitable ideas, share them :D
 292 2011-10-27 05:13:44 <orange-hand> true, but most things take startup money
 293 2011-10-27 05:13:49 <orange-hand> laundering doesn't
 294 2011-10-27 05:13:55 <orange-hand> or very little
 295 2011-10-27 05:14:18 <gmaxwell> Well, I have before. For example, we could use a number of different merchant lubrication services— e.g. things to secure fast transactions.
 296 2011-10-27 05:14:39 <orange-hand> and truly, if I think of something legit, I will surely explore it too
 297 2011-10-27 05:14:40 <gmaxwell> (and there are a number of ways to do that, and many of them need a semi-trusted service provider)
 298 2011-10-27 05:15:49 <orange-hand> wouldn't such a provider need a large sum of money to startup?
 299 2011-10-27 05:15:58 <orange-hand> regulations, fees etc.
 300 2011-10-27 05:17:02 <gmaxwell> No. You don't have to have transactions go through you like mtgox.
 301 2011-10-27 05:17:36 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28565.5;wap2  < options (3) and (4) on my list here.
 302 2011-10-27 05:17:38 <orange-hand> so what, just something like speedy confirmations?
 303 2011-10-27 05:17:59 <gmaxwell> (3) needs some money to back your promises, but not a ton.
 304 2011-10-27 05:19:22 <orange-hand> interesting
 305 2011-10-27 05:19:37 <gmaxwell> Esp since you don't need to insure transactions for their full value. E.g. you could reply to a vendor "I'll insure  _this_ (8 BTC) tranaction against reversal for a price of 0.0001 BTC per BTC of insurance up to a maximum of 5 BTC, quarter price if you get a copy of their photo id"
 306 2011-10-27 05:19:42 <orange-hand> how fast can the fastest transaction occur though; it has to be at minimum-worst-case 10 minutes
 307 2011-10-27 05:19:45 <orange-hand> no?
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 309 2011-10-27 05:20:24 <gmaxwell> orange-hand: no, it can happen _instantly_ because you don't wait for it to go into the blockchain. Instead you make sure it got propagated to the big miners. And you listen to any conflicting txn.
 310 2011-10-27 05:20:35 <gmaxwell> And you're taking a little risk, but you're charging a fee.
 311 2011-10-27 05:20:45 <orange-hand> ok
 312 2011-10-27 05:21:18 <orange-hand> hehe
 313 2011-10-27 05:21:27 <orange-hand> my evil mind is thinking about how I would try to attack that
 314 2011-10-27 05:21:30 <gmaxwell> The thing is, as the insurance vendor you have a much better ability to assess the risk at every instant, so it's worth it for vendors to pay you to take it instead of taking the risk themselves.
 315 2011-10-27 05:21:41 <gmaxwell> Thats the kind of mind needed to offer the service.
 316 2011-10-27 05:21:51 osmosis has joined
 317 2011-10-27 05:22:00 <gmaxwell> Joe blow store vendor can't really handle the risk because he can't understand the attacks.
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 319 2011-10-27 05:23:06 <orange-hand> ok cool
 320 2011-10-27 05:23:09 <orange-hand> I'll definitely look into it
 321 2011-10-27 05:23:10 <orange-hand> still going to finish the paper
 322 2011-10-27 05:23:13 <gmaxwell> Have fun.
 323 2011-10-27 05:23:21 <orange-hand> it identifies a lot of vulnerabilities (I think) in current "laundries"
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 330 2011-10-27 05:25:04 <orange-hand> ok, I am going afk
 331 2011-10-27 05:25:11 <orange-hand> good talking to you
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 377 2011-10-27 07:10:56 <diki> the bitcoin wiki is down
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 380 2011-10-27 07:18:40 <phantomcircuit> diki, hardware failure
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 388 2011-10-27 07:33:06 <diki> thats very unusual
 389 2011-10-27 07:33:28 <JFK911> hacked
 390 2011-10-27 07:34:54 iocor has joined
 391 2011-10-27 07:35:37 <nathan7> greetings, earthlings.
 392 2011-10-27 07:35:48 <nathan7> ohshit.
 393 2011-10-27 07:35:53 <nathan7> that's bad.
 394 2011-10-27 07:37:06 <diki> i actually need some stuff from the wiki
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 397 2011-10-27 07:38:19 <neofutur> (09:13) < phantomci> MagicalTux, is there a backup of the wiki?
 398 2011-10-27 07:38:20 <neofutur> (09:13) <@MagicalTu> backups were publicly downloadable
 399 2011-10-27 07:38:20 <neofutur> (09:14) <@MagicalTu> actually the server is up and running, and I can connect to it
 400 2011-10-27 07:38:23 <neofutur> fyi
 401 2011-10-27 07:38:34 <diki> weird
 402 2011-10-27 07:38:35 <diki> i cant
 403 2011-10-27 07:38:45 <neofutur> not yet
 404 2011-10-27 07:41:34 <neofutur> (09:14) <@MagicalTu> the ddos protected ips are down right now
 405 2011-10-27 07:41:41 <neofutur> (09:14) <@MagicalTu> because they don't route to the right rack
 406 2011-10-27 07:42:25 <neofutur> just wait, dont worry and /ignore JFK911 troll :p
 407 2011-10-27 07:43:03 zeiris has joined
 408 2011-10-27 07:46:53 <JFK911> tux is also hosting the wiki?
 409 2011-10-27 07:47:41 FellowTraveler1 has joined
 410 2011-10-27 07:47:45 <FellowTraveler1> hi all.
 411 2011-10-27 07:48:27 <neofutur> JFK911: actually he created it afaik
 412 2011-10-27 07:50:04 <neofutur> will you complain because people try to help bitcoin and actually _do_ things ?
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 417 2011-10-27 07:56:43 <jav__> Hi there! Does someone here have some testnet coins to spare? mrBvHhWXjt8L5v43ejvWAcnzddfh3i7R2b .. I tried to get some from the faucet, but even so it claimed to have sent them, I don't think it did (I didn't receive anything and testnet blockexplorer showed nothing either) (?)
 418 2011-10-27 08:03:07 <phantomcircuit> jav__, it can take a *very* long time to generate a testnet block
 419 2011-10-27 08:04:30 <jav__> phantomcircuit: I tried to get coins from the faucet yesterday.. or is *very* long several days?
 420 2011-10-27 08:04:44 <phantomcircuit> that seems too long
 421 2011-10-27 08:04:54 <phantomcircuit> i have some... somewhere
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 430 2011-10-27 08:21:48 <jav__> nice... just a second ago I received all the faucet coins I had requested
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 465 2011-10-27 09:26:07 <tcatm> casascius: the first "call to action" link on bitcoin.org links to http://www.weusecoins.com/ so that site might be a good place to add a link to MD
 466 2011-10-27 09:28:57 <jav__> Question: If I'm looking at a script of the form "<sig> <pubKey> OP_DUP ..." then <sig> is a signature of a hash of a simplified transaction, right? does that simplified transcation include <pubKey>?
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 495 2011-10-27 10:28:32 <benne> regarding translation of the bitcoin channel - who to contact?
 496 2011-10-27 10:30:36 <SomeoneWeird> channel?
 497 2011-10-27 10:30:38 <SomeoneWeird> client?
 498 2011-10-27 10:31:40 <benne> wow - sorry
 499 2011-10-27 10:31:41 <benne> client :)
 500 2011-10-27 10:32:02 <tcatm> <-
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 818 2011-10-27 12:38:30 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r4e8e7dc2ba6a / (3 files in 3 dirs): Completed EC key class + unit test.
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1013 2011-10-27 13:16:56 diki is now known as Guest36635
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1020 2011-10-27 13:18:22 <Diablo-D3> ffs
1021 2011-10-27 13:18:27 <Diablo-D3> will someone temp kline him?
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1033 2011-10-27 13:21:00 <nathan7> wel damnit
1034 2011-10-27 13:21:02 <nathan7> *well
1035 2011-10-27 13:21:32 midnightmagic has joined
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1050 2011-10-27 13:24:48 <edcba> ...
1051 2011-10-27 13:24:58 <nathan7> Someone remind me how to ban someone with a note.
1052 2011-10-27 13:25:02 midnightmagic has joined
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1054 2011-10-27 13:25:23 <edcba> just ban him and kick him with a note :)
1055 2011-10-27 13:25:30 <gmaxwell> nathan7: /msg sucker You suck
1056 2011-10-27 13:25:32 midnightmagic has joined
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1060 2011-10-27 13:29:02 midnightmagic has joined
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1062 2011-10-27 13:29:29 <Graet>  /ban midnightmagic fix your internet!
1063 2011-10-27 13:29:32 midnightmagic has joined
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1095 2011-10-27 13:35:33 <nathan7> hrmpf.
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1104 2011-10-27 13:37:30 <nathan7> I am being driven insane
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1107 2011-10-27 13:38:53 <imsaguy2> its across all his channels
1108 2011-10-27 13:38:55 <imsaguy2> it sucks
1109 2011-10-27 13:38:57 <nathan7> Yeah.
1110 2011-10-27 13:39:22 <imsaguy2> services should catch on to an issue like this and resolve it
1111 2011-10-27 13:39:30 <nathan7> Yes, they should
1112 2011-10-27 13:39:37 <imsaguy2> its every ~30 seconds
1113 2011-10-27 13:39:40 <manveru> what's he doing?
1114 2011-10-27 13:39:51 <imsaguy2> his client is probably trying to join too many channels at once
1115 2011-10-27 13:39:58 <imsaguy2> and then freenode kills him off
1116 2011-10-27 13:40:09 <imsaguy2> so it just keeps repeating until his client runs out of retries
1117 2011-10-27 13:40:13 <imsaguy2> (if it even does)
1118 2011-10-27 13:41:05 <nathan7> mhm
1119 2011-10-27 13:41:10 <manveru> ah, i filter join/part/quit out, so i don't even see it
1120 2011-10-27 13:41:40 <imsaguy2> I like knowing who is coming in the door
1121 2011-10-27 13:41:58 <imsaguy2> what makes it worse is he has long enough to auth
1122 2011-10-27 13:42:08 <imsaguy2>  so the cloaking doubles the join/part
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1126 2011-10-27 13:44:11 <Eliel> !later tell gavinandresen if we're adding a new transaction type, I'd suggest we use an error correcting code for the checksum. If the code is 4 bytes, then a 4 byte code could detect errors up to 4 bytes and fix up to 2 bytes.
1127 2011-10-27 13:44:12 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1128 2011-10-27 13:44:37 <Eliel> !later tell gavinandersen uh, this is for the new address type, not the transaction.
1129 2011-10-27 13:44:38 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1130 2011-10-27 13:44:55 <imsaguy2> this is what makes freenode suck
1131 2011-10-27 13:45:00 <imsaguy2> I mention it in #freenode
1132 2011-10-27 13:45:07 <imsaguy2> the reply: <+jbroome> imsaguy2: he's not in here, talk to the ops of those channels
1133 2011-10-27 13:45:25 <imsaguy2> so basically, even though its a network issue, each channel should have to ban him
1134 2011-10-27 13:47:01 wboy1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1135 2011-10-27 13:50:08 <lianj> aw, whenhe is back at his session he may wonder why all of freenode turned on him :D
1136 2011-10-27 13:50:38 <imsaguy2> well its frakking annoying
1137 2011-10-27 13:50:58 wboy1 has joined
1138 2011-10-27 13:56:02 <nathan7> hrmpf.
1139 2011-10-27 13:57:52 <imsaguy2> he's done
1140 2011-10-27 13:58:13 DontMindMe has joined
1141 2011-10-27 13:58:53 <nathan7> hmm, seems to be over
1142 2011-10-27 13:59:09 <ThomasV> how does bitcoin choose the input addresses it uses in a transaction ? does it simply try to minimize the length of the tx, or does it take other things into consideration?
1143 2011-10-27 13:59:27 <imsaguy2> ThomasV, the current input selection code sucks
1144 2011-10-27 13:59:30 <imsaguy2> to put it bluntly
1145 2011-10-27 13:59:49 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1146 2011-10-27 13:59:54 <ThomasV> that's a vague answer
1147 2011-10-27 14:00:04 robblesz has quit (Quit: .)
1148 2011-10-27 14:00:59 <imsaguy2> It really doesn't take into account transaction size
1149 2011-10-27 14:01:00 robblesz has joined
1150 2011-10-27 14:01:05 <imsaguy2> or anything else that matters
1151 2011-10-27 14:01:15 <ThomasV> so what does it do ?
1152 2011-10-27 14:01:41 <imsaguy2> gmaxwell ^
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1154 2011-10-27 14:02:04 <gmaxwell> It's actually quite smart— but it's quite smartly doing the wrong thing.
1155 2011-10-27 14:02:50 <ThomasV> will you guys tell me more ?
1156 2011-10-27 14:02:55 <gmaxwell> In particular the selection code knows basically nothing about the anti-ddos priority. So it will happily make a selection that causes you to have to pay the nussiance fee when otherwise was possible.
1157 2011-10-27 14:03:34 <ThomasV> what is the nussiance fee ?
1158 2011-10-27 14:03:47 <gmaxwell> Go read the code?  It's not that complicated. It tries to minimize the data size, taking several passes— first starting off with txn which have 6+ confirms (or 1 confirm if they are yours— often the source of the fee from what I've seen).
1159 2011-10-27 14:04:35 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: The 0.0005 BTC you need to pay when your transaction has very low priority.
1160 2011-10-27 14:05:40 <gmaxwell> (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees)
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1162 2011-10-27 14:07:03 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: minimizing the data size is not simple. if you always minimize it for the current tx, I guess you end up with lots of small amounts on various addresses, and if you later need to send a large amount, you will need to use multiple inputs, which you could have avoided. so there seems to be a tradeoff between present and future tx sizes
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1166 2011-10-27 14:09:21 <gmaxwell> It's not the right metric anymore in any case. Or rather, it's the net most important thing after priority.
1167 2011-10-27 14:09:22 <ThomasV> I guess my question is, does it try to minimize the current tx size, or does it also try to keep a small number of addresses in order to save on future fees
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1170 2011-10-27 14:10:04 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: btw, the wiki is down
1171 2011-10-27 14:10:06 <gmaxwell> Yes, no.  And I'm not so sure that keeping a small number of addresses saves future fees. (within bounds)
1172 2011-10-27 14:10:33 <ThomasV> I see.
1173 2011-10-27 14:10:58 <gmaxwell> What I _think_ would be better is finding the lowest priority input greater than the fee minimum. But thats a more complex objective.
1174 2011-10-27 14:11:12 <gmaxwell> That would tend to sweep out inputs as it got a chance.
1175 2011-10-27 14:12:15 <ThomasV> what is the fee minimum ?
1176 2011-10-27 14:12:24 <imsaguy2> 0
1177 2011-10-27 14:12:28 <imsaguy2> then .0005
1178 2011-10-27 14:12:47 <ThomasV> I mean, how is it related to the data size
1179 2011-10-27 14:14:06 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: The priority of a txn is calculated as SUM_OVER_INPUTS( value * confirms ) / txn_bytes  where value is in base units.
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1182 2011-10-27 14:14:45 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: why ?
1183 2011-10-27 14:14:56 <imsaguy2> basically 1 btc takes 1 day
1184 2011-10-27 14:15:25 <gmaxwell> If this is under 51m (which for typical txn sizes is 1 BTC /day) then nodes won't forward unless there is at least a 0.0005 fee.
1185 2011-10-27 14:15:47 <gmaxwell> This is a fairly effective and hard to avoid anti-DOS measure.
1186 2011-10-27 14:16:37 <gmaxwell> (since it basically uses _stationary bitcoins_ as a proof-of-work to permit the txn. ... and lots of stationary bitcoins is not what you have if you're trying to do an attach that involves moving them a lot)
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1188 2011-10-27 14:17:08 <ThomasV> I see
1189 2011-10-27 14:17:57 <gmaxwell> you'll also get hit with the 0.0005 fee if your txn has any outputs 0.01  (making open txn set bloating attacks costly)... and there are per-kb fees for very large txn, but I think that gets hit less often— or at least people complain less often.
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1191 2011-10-27 14:18:18 <ThomasV> but this priority is used for forwarding the tx ; do miners also take priority into account, or do they just try to maximize their wealth ?
1192 2011-10-27 14:18:34 <gmaxwell> though after the attacks on some of the other blockchain cryptocurrencies I've noticed very few complaints— people do seem to believe that it prevents DOS attacks now. :)
1193 2011-10-27 14:18:54 <imsaguy2> miners will include high priority before normal before low priority
1194 2011-10-27 14:19:00 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: miners try to maximize their wealth, but they do take the free txn in priority order. Thats an argument against minimizing it.
1195 2011-10-27 14:19:02 <imsaguy2> unless its been modified
1196 2011-10-27 14:19:40 <gmaxwell> though you could make the decision dynamically if you're a full client: e.g. what priority should have gotten me into the last block assuming that miner used the same rules I'd use.
1197 2011-10-27 14:20:38 wboy1 has joined
1198 2011-10-27 14:24:08 <ThomasV> I am not a full client :-)
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1202 2011-10-27 14:28:11 <gmaxwell> ah, well then.
1203 2011-10-27 14:28:24 <gmaxwell> (hey, at least I was thoughtful to suggest the possibility that you might not be one!)
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1222 2011-10-27 14:52:35 <gavinandresen> Eliel:  see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46538.msg584239#msg584239  for my thoughts on address checksum improvements
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1281 2011-10-27 16:10:33 <gmaxwell> UI fail:
1282 2011-10-27 16:10:39 <gmaxwell> What does a user do when they see error: {"code":-13,"message":"Error: Please enter the wallet passphrase with walletpassphrase first."}
1283 2011-10-27 16:10:42 <gmaxwell> ?
1284 2011-10-27 16:10:47 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1285 2011-10-27 16:10:56 <gmaxwell> they do this:
1286 2011-10-27 16:10:56 <gmaxwell>  C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\daemon>bitcoind.exe walletpass signmessage 1address "2011-10-27: I authorize sending my earned  namecoins
1287 2011-10-27 16:10:59 <gmaxwell>                to: Mnamecoinaddress" error: {"code":-32601,"message":"Method not found"}
1288 2011-10-27 16:13:24 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: crazy you ever figure out what it was?
1289 2011-10-27 16:13:43 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: not really
1290 2011-10-27 16:14:34 <ThomasV> jrmithdobbs: but I found that my addresses actually work, except for one of them, which is the one I was testing
1291 2011-10-27 16:14:52 <jrmithdobbs> haha, hate when that happens
1292 2011-10-27 16:15:25 <ThomasV> I need to investigate more
1293 2011-10-27 16:15:53 <ThomasV> or I can give you the private key, and the bitcents will be for you if you can get them :-)
1294 2011-10-27 16:16:08 BlueMatt has joined
1295 2011-10-27 16:17:07 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: i don't have time to fiddle with it today tbqh, was just wondering if you found the issue
1296 2011-10-27 16:17:32 <ThomasV> no, but the issue is not what I thought in the first place
1297 2011-10-27 16:17:51 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: you should test with testnet addresses
1298 2011-10-27 16:18:10 <jrmithdobbs> ThomasV: i had an obo in my addr generation code that was causing 1/32 or something like that to be invalid
1299 2011-10-27 16:18:10 <ThomasV> yeah, but it's a few cents, not a big deal
1300 2011-10-27 16:18:23 <ThomasV> obo ?
1301 2011-10-27 16:18:29 <jrmithdobbs> doing it on testnet and testing with 100ish addresses at once makes those easier to spot
1302 2011-10-27 16:18:32 <jrmithdobbs> off by one
1303 2011-10-27 16:18:52 <BlueMatt> graingert: see gribble msg
1304 2011-10-27 16:19:59 <graingert> BlueMatt: I don't see one
1305 2011-10-27 16:20:11 <graingert> BlueMatt: I see it now :p
1306 2011-10-27 16:20:18 <BlueMatt> hehe
1307 2011-10-27 16:20:23 <graingert> odd I was online 3 minutes ago...
1308 2011-10-27 16:20:36 <BlueMatt> gribble doesnt send it to you until after you speak after the later tell
1309 2011-10-27 16:20:41 <BlueMatt> (as it is assumed you might be afk)
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1314 2011-10-27 16:31:32 <BlueMatt> actually, Ill repost that here: if any trusted developers (ie gavin trusts you to do release builds) want to help with the bitcoin ubuntu ppa, please tag me
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1327 2011-10-27 16:57:52 <graingert> BlueMatt: I thought gittian stopped that
1328 2011-10-27 16:58:09 <BlueMatt> not if you do ppas, launchpad has to do the building
1329 2011-10-27 16:58:10 <graingert> and also the ubuntu build process needs you to build on their servers with a public build log
1330 2011-10-27 16:58:21 <graingert> BlueMatt: can you not integrate them
1331 2011-10-27 16:58:33 <graingert> launchpad will load gitian
1332 2011-10-27 16:58:37 <BlueMatt> no, most of the launchpad building is on vms
1333 2011-10-27 16:58:43 <graingert> for example
1334 2011-10-27 16:58:46 <BlueMatt> (which dont have native vt-x support, which is effectively required)
1335 2011-10-27 16:58:50 <graingert> ah
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1337 2011-10-27 16:58:58 <BlueMatt> yea, but if you are on the team you can still push arbitrary code to launchpad which it will build and distribute
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1339 2011-10-27 16:59:30 <graingert> meh I'd like to be on the team - but I'm not a trusted developer
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1342 2011-10-27 17:00:00 <BlueMatt> Id talk to gavin, he would probably be willing to add quite a few people
1343 2011-10-27 17:00:16 <BlueMatt> but Im gonna defer to his judgment here
1344 2011-10-27 17:02:20 <nanotube> BlueMatt: it may be helpful to note what kind of help is needed with the ppa
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1346 2011-10-27 17:02:54 <BlueMatt> graingert wants nightly/beta/stable packages, and I dont really have the time to commit to keeping those up-to-date
1347 2011-10-27 17:02:56 <gavinandresen> graingert: email me some information about you-- experience, where you are, etc.  And a phone number I can call to talk with you.  I'm just extra paranoid when it comes to the bitcoin release process....
1348 2011-10-27 17:03:24 <nanotube> paranoia++.
1349 2011-10-27 17:03:34 <BlueMatt> its a good idea, just not something I can do
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1363 2011-10-27 17:24:51 <BlueMatt> alright, another round of building and some minor updates and ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin should be ready (at least for stable releases)
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1367 2011-10-27 17:30:10 <graingert> BlueMatt: w00t
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1372 2011-10-27 17:35:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: see my note from yesterday?
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1379 2011-10-27 17:46:42 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no
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1382 2011-10-27 17:48:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: leave it with gribble in a later tell, thanks
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1394 2011-10-27 18:04:35 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r255 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/PrintPeers.java: Fix another Java-6ism
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1398 2011-10-27 18:08:06 <graingert> !later tell BlueMatt how long does a "round of building" take?
1399 2011-10-27 18:08:07 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1401 2011-10-27 18:09:48 <nanotube> ;;later tell BlueMatt jgarzik said 'that sounds like a good ppa setup' - that's the only line of his from yesterday that contained your nick :)
1402 2011-10-27 18:09:48 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1404 2011-10-27 18:15:00 <graingert> gavinandresen: you sound very different on the phone than from other times I've heard you
1405 2011-10-27 18:15:39 <gavinandresen> graingert: maybe the Skype connection?  through the microphone in my mac... I didn't bother trying to get a good quality connection...
1406 2011-10-27 18:16:47 <gavinandresen> graingert: I told BlueMatt I trust you are who you say you are-- thanks for offering to help!
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1409 2011-10-27 18:17:17 <graingert> awesome :)
1410 2011-10-27 18:17:26 <graingert> yeah it sounded like digital artifacts
1411 2011-10-27 18:17:28 <cuqa> when do orphans turn out to be orphans?
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1413 2011-10-27 18:17:39 <cuqa> pretty fast or can it still happen at like 80 confirmations
1414 2011-10-27 18:17:47 <graingert> cuqa: orphan blocks?
1415 2011-10-27 18:18:00 <cuqa> yes, orphan blocks, not orphan kids :<
1416 2011-10-27 18:18:08 <graingert> cuqa: it can happen whenever
1417 2011-10-27 18:18:13 <gmaxwell> cuqa: almost always by the next block..
1418 2011-10-27 18:18:16 <graingert> it just becomes more and more likely
1419 2011-10-27 18:18:18 <cuqa> ok
1420 2011-10-27 18:18:24 <graingert> not to happen
1421 2011-10-27 18:18:30 <cuqa> alright
1422 2011-10-27 18:18:31 <graingert> vanishingly small at 80
1423 2011-10-27 18:18:44 <graingert> and limited to some blocks hard coded in the client
1424 2011-10-27 18:18:45 <cuqa> and at 120 its locked?
1425 2011-10-27 18:18:52 <graingert> cuqa: it's never 100%
1426 2011-10-27 18:18:55 <cuqa> oh
1427 2011-10-27 18:19:03 <graingert> unless it's included in the client
1428 2011-10-27 18:19:13 <cuqa> and that happened ever?
1429 2011-10-27 18:19:18 <cuqa> probably not
1430 2011-10-27 18:19:24 <graingert> I think the max is 2
1431 2011-10-27 18:19:44 <gmaxwell> There was intentionally a deep fork created due to a fix for a software bug. But otherwise I don't think I've seen anyone mention observing greater than 2.
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1433 2011-10-27 18:20:20 <graingert> whs
1434 2011-10-27 18:20:21 <cuqa> what I dont really get
1435 2011-10-27 18:20:28 <gmaxwell> (a txn that created a zillion bitcoin got mined once, and the software was fixed and automatically forked the chain before the junk transaction and eventually overtook it)
1436 2011-10-27 18:20:41 <cuqa> or dont understand how I would do it is determining the chance that a block becomes invalid
1437 2011-10-27 18:20:54 <graingert> cuqa: you want to shift to #bitcoin-mining?
1438 2011-10-27 18:21:09 <gmaxwell> cuqa: go read the bitcoin paper. there is software for calculating that.
1439 2011-10-27 18:21:27 <cuqa> thx
1440 2011-10-27 18:21:43 <gmaxwell> https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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1457 2011-10-27 18:46:38 <diki> tcatm:you are the owner of bitcoincharts, right?
1458 2011-10-27 18:46:41 <diki> i saw a small typo
1459 2011-10-27 18:48:40 <tcatm> diki: yes
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1461 2011-10-27 18:49:10 <diki> its in the "Out of coins" message
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1463 2011-10-27 18:49:27 <diki> “Out of coins” was our old ```500 – Internal server error``` page. It’s a relicT
1464 2011-10-27 18:49:38 <diki> i think it should be just "relic"
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1467 2011-10-27 18:53:37 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r967ec4deb468 /src/types.cpp: optionally allow non space separated hex input.
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1520 2011-10-27 20:13:47 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rd28d370 / daemon/init.js : Fixed duplicate helpful error message. (Once is plenty, thanks.) - http://git.io/WqnC3Q
1521 2011-10-27 20:13:47 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * ref5f541 / daemon/settings.example.js : Expanded example settings file. - http://git.io/QgXaXw
1522 2011-10-27 20:13:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rd5f26b8 / package.json : Updated to latest node-irc. Fixes #38. - http://git.io/PwTKqA
1523 2011-10-27 20:13:48 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rc3a17fd / lib/blockchain.js : Ignore blocks that were already received and processed. Fixes #39. - http://git.io/AZReIw
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1622 2011-10-27 23:18:44 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rb0aa5ee4cacb / (3 files in 3 dirs): suvertx: priv app for new keypair, signing and verifying
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1630 2011-10-27 23:32:32 <freewil> what happened to v0.5.0
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1644 2011-10-27 23:44:28 <Eliel> freewil: it's not released yet
1645 2011-10-27 23:45:12 <freewil> well i know that
1646 2011-10-27 23:45:22 <freewil> is rc1 still being tested?
1647 2011-10-27 23:46:56 Xunie has joined
1648 2011-10-27 23:48:13 <Eliel> yes
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1650 2011-10-27 23:52:22 <graingert> I was under the impression that rc2 was being tested
1651 2011-10-27 23:53:04 <freewil> there's only a rc1 tagged on github
1652 2011-10-27 23:54:21 <graingert> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tags
1653 2011-10-27 23:54:23 <graingert> so it is
1654 2011-10-27 23:54:28 <graingert> perhaps I was seeing things
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