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  41 2011-10-30 01:03:25 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rb09f6d331bf6 / (11 files in 7 dirs): w00t! Subscriber model for networking interface!
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  80 2011-10-30 02:15:06 <CIA-101> bips: genjix master * r816a18e / bip-test.md : testing. - http://git.io/jwQopw
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  85 2011-10-30 02:19:53 <CIA-101> bips: genjix master * rc67d1fc / (8 files):
  86 2011-10-30 02:19:53 <CIA-101> bips: Renamed .txt files to .md for your github viewing pleasure.
  87 2011-10-30 02:19:53 <CIA-101> bips: However the format should still be in MediaWiki format. - http://git.io/lFgTKQ
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  99 2011-10-30 02:37:24 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rd3234af / lib/blockchain.js : Enabled transaction verification during chain download. - http://git.io/YrEEEg
 100 2011-10-30 02:37:24 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rafe552a / (lib/util.js native.cc): Added BitcoinKey.signSync(). - http://git.io/PUADnw
 101 2011-10-30 02:37:25 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rb090481 / (lib/scriptinterpreter.js test/script.js): Implemented OP_CHECKMULTISIG and unit tests. - http://git.io/fQ2ekw
 102 2011-10-30 02:37:25 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * recbd410 / lib/script.js : Update buffer field when creating Script objects from test data. - http://git.io/iICvNQ
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 110 2011-10-30 02:47:28 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50281.0  < wallet encryption claims its first victim? (or stops its first theif?— depending on how much you buy that story)
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 112 2011-10-30 02:49:24 <cjdelisle> lol rainbow table
 113 2011-10-30 02:49:27 <Diablo-D3> :3
 114 2011-10-30 02:49:59 <gmaxwell> "um because I really have no idea of my password at all. I'm so clueless about it that I need a rainbow table" ...
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 116 2011-10-30 02:51:38 <phantomcircuit> lol rainbow table
 117 2011-10-30 02:51:42 <phantomcircuit> nope not gonna happen
 118 2011-10-30 02:51:52 <phantomcircuit> i propose we ban zhoutong
 119 2011-10-30 02:52:01 <phantomcircuit> his constant part/join is annoying as hell
 120 2011-10-30 02:52:05 <copumpkin> yup
 121 2011-10-30 02:52:07 <copumpkin> I agree
 122 2011-10-30 02:52:08 <phantomcircuit> and he is never actually here
 123 2011-10-30 02:52:39 <copumpkin> I think he joins and parts every time someone places an order on bitcoinica
 124 2011-10-30 02:52:45 <phantomcircuit> lol
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 136 2011-10-30 03:06:49 <Davincij15> copying the BTC wallet over to .namecion folder and doing -rescan did it!  I got my lost coins!  YEAH!
 137 2011-10-30 03:06:53 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
 138 2011-10-30 03:06:56 <cjdelisle> looks like a bad network connection though so letting him know why is a good idea....
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 140 2011-10-30 03:09:26 <copumpkin> cjdelisle: yes, I've left him a couple of messages with gribble telling him about it
 141 2011-10-30 03:09:33 <copumpkin> either he never checks IRC or he just ignored it
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 163 2011-10-30 03:51:00 <CIA-101> bips: etotheipi master * r4261991 / bip-0010.md :
 164 2011-10-30 03:51:00 <CIA-101> bips: Added BIP 0010 - proposal for multi-sig standard
 165 2011-10-30 03:51:00 <CIA-101> bips: Proposes a standardized method for executing multi-signature tx's - http://git.io/gmoAmQ
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 169 2011-10-30 03:57:07 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt is the gitian-win32.yml file incomplete in bitcoin/bitcoin master?  there don't seem to be any commands to cross-compile qt, and there's a ref to $HOME/qt which is never populated
 170 2011-10-30 03:57:07 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 177 2011-10-30 04:05:39 <luke-jr> wtf is .md
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 180 2011-10-30 04:12:30 <justmoon> luke-jr, Markdown
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 293 2011-10-30 06:40:59 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 294 2011-10-30 06:41:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 151100 | Current Difficulty: 1468195.4272208 | Next Difficulty At Block: 151199 | Next Difficulty In: 99 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 21 hours, 18 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1208707.62831654 | Estimated Percent Change: -17.673927741
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 309 2011-10-30 07:04:25 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r32b839c / lib/blockchain.js : Fixed bug where invalid blocks could remain in cache. - http://git.io/AjqKWg
 310 2011-10-30 07:04:27 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r89bb9b3 / (lib/scriptinterpreter.js test/script.js): Changed script interpreter to asynchronous syntax. Preparation for #29. - http://git.io/VLD7-g
 311 2011-10-30 07:04:28 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rcb22a44 / lib/schema/transaction.js : Check sanity of inIndex in Transaction.hashForSignature(). - http://git.io/ckun4g
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 527 2011-10-30 11:49:56 <terrytibbs> goddammit zhoutong
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 543 2011-10-30 12:06:53 * nathan7 eyes ArdaXi__ 
 544 2011-10-30 12:07:02 <cocktopus> 0o
 545 2011-10-30 12:07:15 ArdaXi__ has quit (Client Quit)
 546 2011-10-30 12:07:29 <nathan7> What does a cocktopus look like?
 547 2011-10-30 12:07:42 <nathan7> Eight cocks, usable as arms?
 548 2011-10-30 12:07:52 <cocktopus> !google cocktopus
 549 2011-10-30 12:07:52 <gribble> The Cocktopus | Robots with Feelings: <http://www.robotswithfeelings.com/2010-01-27/the-cocktopus>; cocktopus's Channel - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/user/cocktopus>; Toonhole | Cocktopus: <http://www.toonhole.com/2011/02/cocktopus/>
 550 2011-10-30 12:08:21 <nathan7> Heh.
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 565 2011-10-30 12:43:25 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * ra3abd4ba0d10 /src/network/network.cpp: std::ref(...)'ize bound reference arguments.
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 687 2011-10-30 16:53:33 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r709619d0db26 / (4 files in 2 dirs): call handle_send(...) after attempting send in channel.
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 721 2011-10-30 17:46:50 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ping
 722 2011-10-30 17:46:54 <BlueMatt> graingert: ping
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 724 2011-10-30 17:47:34 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell devrandom see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/597 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/598 (it just took a long time to get a working xcompile on ubuntu)
 725 2011-10-30 17:47:34 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 726 2011-10-30 17:49:36 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell graingert that is because I dint get around to moving the db4.8 package from bitcoin/libdb to bitcoin/bitcoin...Ill go do that now
 727 2011-10-30 17:49:36 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 733 2011-10-30 17:58:45 <graingert> BlueMatt: Sorry I was grabbing le pizza
 734 2011-10-30 17:59:41 <BlueMatt> graingert: ok, I uploaded db4.8 to bitcoin/bitcoin and removed bitcoin/libdb as it is no longer necessary
 735 2011-10-30 17:59:56 <BlueMatt> bitcoin-qt should now work on oneiric
 736 2011-10-30 18:00:00 <BlueMatt> (once the build runs)
 737 2011-10-30 18:01:05 <graingert> I'm still uncomfortable with the PPA including extra packages
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 739 2011-10-30 18:01:20 <BlueMatt> I agree, but its the only reasonable way...
 740 2011-10-30 18:01:26 <graingert> it seemed gavinanderson was pro using libdb4.8(!++)-dev
 741 2011-10-30 18:01:28 <BlueMatt> (unless you want to static-link db)
 742 2011-10-30 18:01:37 <graingert> or using libdb5.1++
 743 2011-10-30 18:01:54 <BlueMatt> you mean rewrite bitcoin to use libdb4.8 instead of libdb4.8++?
 744 2011-10-30 18:01:55 <Diablo-D3> no
 745 2011-10-30 18:02:03 <Diablo-D3> you cant switch to 5.1 because 5.x is oraclized
 746 2011-10-30 18:02:15 <BlueMatt> stfu Diablo-D3
 747 2011-10-30 18:02:15 <graingert> that's not a reason Diablo-D3
 748 2011-10-30 18:02:25 <Diablo-D3> it is when its a license and patent issue
 749 2011-10-30 18:02:31 <graingert> urm
 750 2011-10-30 18:02:32 <BlueMatt> its not though...
 751 2011-10-30 18:02:34 * da2ce7 dosn't want to be oraclized
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 753 2011-10-30 18:02:45 <graingert> Diablo-D3: paste me the license url
 754 2011-10-30 18:02:51 <BlueMatt> its not a license issue, and patent issue is not an issue
 755 2011-10-30 18:02:54 <Diablo-D3> find it yourself, if you can
 756 2011-10-30 18:02:54 <luke-jr> 5.x is afaik compatible with 4.8
 757 2011-10-30 18:02:55 <graingert> Diablo-D3: bdbd has been dual licensed
 758 2011-10-30 18:03:14 <graingert> Diablo-D3: it's your argument the onus of proof is on you
 759 2011-10-30 18:03:14 <luke-jr> Debian (and Ubuntu) are removing 4.x entirely
 760 2011-10-30 18:03:26 <Diablo-D3> its not my argument in that sense
 761 2011-10-30 18:03:34 <Diablo-D3> its why most projects have not gone to 5.x
 762 2011-10-30 18:03:35 <graingert> luke-jr: If that's true then we should switch to 5.x
 763 2011-10-30 18:03:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, problem is 5.X isnt in many old version's repos
 764 2011-10-30 18:03:43 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: pretty much everything has
 765 2011-10-30 18:03:53 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: [Citation Needed]
 766 2011-10-30 18:03:56 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so depend on 4.8+
 767 2011-10-30 18:04:01 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: compatible is compatible
 768 2011-10-30 18:04:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: we currently do
 769 2011-10-30 18:04:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but in oneiric, there is no 4.8++
 770 2011-10-30 18:04:14 <graingert> luke-jr: we can't because ubuntu 11.10 does not have it
 771 2011-10-30 18:04:14 <BlueMatt> (and debian testing)
 772 2011-10-30 18:04:16 <luke-jr> 5.x is 4.8+
 773 2011-10-30 18:04:24 <graingert> no it's not
 774 2011-10-30 18:04:26 <luke-jr> yes it is
 775 2011-10-30 18:04:29 <luke-jr> 5 > 4
 776 2011-10-30 18:04:32 <Diablo-D3> er no luke, you cant magically go backwards in db
 777 2011-10-30 18:04:37 <BlueMatt> he means 4.8+ not 4.8++
 778 2011-10-30 18:04:42 <BlueMatt> (very big difference)
 779 2011-10-30 18:04:43 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: between 4.8 and 5.x, you can
 780 2011-10-30 18:04:44 <graingert> oh
 781 2011-10-30 18:04:46 <Diablo-D3> even read only opening a db in bdb will upgrade the db
 782 2011-10-30 18:04:53 <Diablo-D3> that means you can never go back
 783 2011-10-30 18:04:55 * BlueMatt is very unconfortable having o
 784 2011-10-30 18:04:56 <luke-jr> C O M P A T I B L E
 785 2011-10-30 18:05:05 <graingert> o?
 786 2011-10-30 18:05:09 <Diablo-D3> 5.x also contains api differences.
 787 2011-10-30 18:05:11 * BlueMatt is very uncomfortable having "official" packages use different versions of bdb
 788 2011-10-30 18:05:20 <Diablo-D3> blueMatt: I agree
 789 2011-10-30 18:05:25 <Diablo-D3> this is why it was standardized on 4.8
 790 2011-10-30 18:05:30 <BlueMatt> exactly
 791 2011-10-30 18:05:32 <Diablo-D3> because osx was on 4.8 and everyone else was on 4.7
 792 2011-10-30 18:05:33 <upb> once you go black, you can never go back
 793 2011-10-30 18:05:57 <BlueMatt> and we cant upgrade to 5.X until all "supported" versions of debian/ubuntu have it in their repos...
 794 2011-10-30 18:06:01 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: official packages will be made by the distro
 795 2011-10-30 18:06:06 <graingert> using a db file as an interchange format is a major issue
 796 2011-10-30 18:06:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: hence the quotes
 797 2011-10-30 18:06:16 <graingert> and that's why we are having this problem
 798 2011-10-30 18:06:19 <Diablo-D3> distros who break shit know better.
 799 2011-10-30 18:06:52 <graingert> I think we need a big push for a proper wallet interchange format
 800 2011-10-30 18:07:00 <graingert> that we can stick to _forever_ (ish)
 801 2011-10-30 18:07:07 <BlueMatt> graingert: go ahead (patches welcome, as always)
 802 2011-10-30 18:07:18 <graingert> BlueMatt: well no it's not a patches issue
 803 2011-10-30 18:07:25 <luke-jr> graingert: dump to gzip'd XML on quit, and load it to db on load?
 804 2011-10-30 18:07:28 <graingert> as this is something people need to decide on what the API will be
 805 2011-10-30 18:07:41 <graingert> luke-jr: I was thinking that, or GPG key export format
 806 2011-10-30 18:07:42 <Diablo-D3> s/gzip/lrzip/
 807 2011-10-30 18:07:42 <BlueMatt> problem is...there is no good solution
 808 2011-10-30 18:07:44 <luke-jr> wait, nm, bitcoind is already slow
 809 2011-10-30 18:07:49 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: lrzip is insane slow on 32-bit
 810 2011-10-30 18:07:56 <tcatm> wouldn't statically linking db4.8 be a good workaround?
 811 2011-10-30 18:08:04 <luke-jr> tcatm: no, static linking is broken by design
 812 2011-10-30 18:08:10 <luke-jr> nothing should ever be static linked
 813 2011-10-30 18:08:14 <graingert> okay new plan
 814 2011-10-30 18:08:16 <BlueMatt> tcatm: dynamic linking and including our own db4.8 packages for oneiric is better (IMO)
 815 2011-10-30 18:08:27 <luke-jr> ^
 816 2011-10-30 18:08:29 <graingert> a new command to export / import ecdsa keys as GPG compatible
 817 2011-10-30 18:08:37 <tcatm> BlueMatt: yep, that's okay, too
 818 2011-10-30 18:08:46 <graingert> and then tell people to backup that
 819 2011-10-30 18:08:53 <graingert> rather than their wallet.dat
 820 2011-10-30 18:08:56 <BlueMatt> tcatm: the debate is really because that both are bad solutions...
 821 2011-10-30 18:09:12 <graingert> this will give you wallet merging as a bonus
 822 2011-10-30 18:09:27 <luke-jr> infinitely more important than these silly build issues though, IMO, is the multiple reports of 0.5 corrupting wallets
 823 2011-10-30 18:09:42 <BlueMatt> linky?
 824 2011-10-30 18:09:49 <luke-jr> no linky.
 825 2011-10-30 18:09:55 <luke-jr> people on IRC
 826 2011-10-30 18:09:55 <BlueMatt> ?
 827 2011-10-30 18:10:00 <BlueMatt> link to logs?
 828 2011-10-30 18:10:00 <graingert> luke-jr: paste bin
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 830 2011-10-30 18:10:14 <luke-jr> most Bitcoin channels are not publicly logged.
 831 2011-10-30 18:10:24 <luke-jr> nor do I recall when/where
 832 2011-10-30 18:10:28 <graingert> luke-jr: well you presumably have logs
 833 2011-10-30 18:10:29 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin and -dev are
 834 2011-10-30 18:10:31 <luke-jr> nor are they reproducable
 835 2011-10-30 18:10:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not #bitcoin
 836 2011-10-30 18:10:36 <graingert> BlueMatt: really?
 837 2011-10-30 18:10:41 <tcatm> maybe we could first remove all non-transaction data (I think some settings are still saved in the wallet) from the wallet and then find a good replacement database? maybe some append-only format so we can't corrupt the database too much
 838 2011-10-30 18:10:55 <Diablo-D3> aaand
 839 2011-10-30 18:10:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: graingert http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin/logs/2011/10
 840 2011-10-30 18:11:00 <Diablo-D3> 960 finally locked up
 841 2011-10-30 18:11:02 <Diablo-D3> took a few days
 842 2011-10-30 18:11:09 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that site is logging illegally then
 843 2011-10-30 18:11:11 <graingert> BlueMatt: just bitcoin dev
 844 2011-10-30 18:11:19 <BlueMatt> graingert: the link goes right to #bitcoin
 845 2011-10-30 18:11:21 <graingert> oh crumbs
 846 2011-10-30 18:11:23 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: take it up with the site
 847 2011-10-30 18:11:38 <graingert> BlueMatt: that really should put a message on entry then
 848 2011-10-30 18:11:45 <graingert> or at least in the topic
 849 2011-10-30 18:11:45 <BlueMatt> graingert: it used to
 850 2011-10-30 18:11:49 <graingert> (freenode rules)
 851 2011-10-30 18:11:51 <BlueMatt> and it used to be in topic
 852 2011-10-30 18:11:59 <BlueMatt> but people removed it, I dont know why or who
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 854 2011-10-30 18:13:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nope, it was never in the topic at least
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 856 2011-10-30 18:14:22 <BlueMatt> hm, I could have sworn it was
 857 2011-10-30 18:14:34 <BlueMatt> oh well, BCBot used to always send a similar message on #bitcoin as well as -dev
 858 2011-10-30 18:14:45 <luke-jr> that would be rather annoying
 859 2011-10-30 18:22:46 <BlueMatt> graingert: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/600
 860 2011-10-30 18:24:24 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 861 2011-10-30 18:26:22 <graingert> BlueMatt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50368.0
 862 2011-10-30 18:27:06 <graingert> luke-jr: can you fact check that please?
 863 2011-10-30 18:27:16 <graingert> luke-jr: it's a brain dump of my understanding
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 865 2011-10-30 18:27:24 <graingert> brb pizza
 866 2011-10-30 18:27:44 <luke-jr> Upgrade to libdb5.x++ and cause new wallets to be incompatible with old bitcoin versions <-- 5.x should be compatible, and not break anything
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 868 2011-10-30 18:32:01 * nathan7 hands out muffins
 869 2011-10-30 18:32:15 * BlueMatt is very happy as he never had breakfast/lunch...
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 900 2011-10-30 19:29:29 <graingert> BlueMatt: https://github.com/jim618/multibit/wiki/Stable%20wallet%20format
 901 2011-10-30 19:29:44 <graingert> it seems other clients have had similar problems
 902 2011-10-30 19:29:53 <graingert> they are using the protobuf format
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 904 2011-10-30 19:32:20 <lfm> what are these new short output scripts?
 905 2011-10-30 19:33:08 <graingert> lfm: link to an example
 906 2011-10-30 19:33:33 <lfm> ok one sec
 907 2011-10-30 19:34:16 diki has joined
 908 2011-10-30 19:35:10 <lfm> http://blockexplorer.com/t/59GUt4zqzS
 909 2011-10-30 19:36:04 <justmoon> lfm, that's unspendable
 910 2011-10-30 19:36:14 wasabi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 911 2011-10-30 19:36:30 <lfm> ok someone blew a lot of btc then, theres about 20 of them
 912 2011-10-30 19:37:55 <justmoon> hmm, somebody asked me for a reliable way to prove the destruction of coins recently
 913 2011-10-30 19:38:01 <justmoon> I recommended sending them to address 0
 914 2011-10-30 19:38:18 <justmoon> this is what this looks like, not sure if it was generated by the original client though or a custom one
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 918 2011-10-30 19:39:06 <lfm> ya its a way to destroy coins, not like the old send to address 0
 919 2011-10-30 19:39:36 <lfm> its new
 920 2011-10-30 19:39:57 <diki> since when is 2600k btc a lot?
 921 2011-10-30 19:40:06 <diki> i am honestly surprised
 922 2011-10-30 19:40:08 <copumpkin> diki: it's a reasonable amount to most people
 923 2011-10-30 19:40:10 <lfm> the old way looked like a valid address of 1111111111111111111114oLvT2
 924 2011-10-30 19:40:21 wasabi1 has joined
 925 2011-10-30 19:40:30 <copumpkin> diki is the 1%
 926 2011-10-30 19:40:33 <diki> i mean i'd understand if it was 10k or so, but...2600k?
 927 2011-10-30 19:40:44 <lfm> diki its the most coins destroyed ever
 928 2011-10-30 19:41:04 <JFK911> is that a bug
 929 2011-10-30 19:41:06 <lfm> verifyably destoryed
 930 2011-10-30 19:41:57 <diki> who is the person who accidentally?
 931 2011-10-30 19:42:05 <upb> 2600K is 2.6M
 932 2011-10-30 19:42:06 wboy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 933 2011-10-30 19:42:08 <copumpkin> nobody knows
 934 2011-10-30 19:42:11 <diki> upb, mispelled
 935 2011-10-30 19:42:21 <lfm> and 2600k btc would still be $7800000.00 but its not that many destroyed anyway
 936 2011-10-30 19:42:22 <copumpkin> well, at least one person knows, presumably
 937 2011-10-30 19:42:23 <diki> I hope he was an evil person
 938 2011-10-30 19:42:26 <copumpkin> unless they fucked up without knowing
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 941 2011-10-30 19:47:52 <edcba> ;;bc,mtgox
 942 2011-10-30 19:47:52 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":3.65026,"low":3.2,"avg":3.473987115,"vwap":3.412128059,"vol":50777,"last_all":3.25,"last_local":3.25,"last":3.25,"buy":3.24599,"sell":3.24999}}
 943 2011-10-30 19:50:31 <lfm> ya it is 2611 btc not 2600k
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 946 2011-10-30 19:51:23 <graingert> lfm:  that's mtgox fucking up
 947 2011-10-30 19:51:32 <graingert> diki: it's 2.6k
 948 2011-10-30 19:52:31 <lfm> makes sense, someone doing a lot of txn all in one block. It looks like they had a wrong wallet file or something
 949 2011-10-30 19:53:39 <graingert> lfm: nope mtgox and eligus have a deal
 950 2011-10-30 19:54:06 <graingert> eligus will mine all mtgox tx no matter what
 951 2011-10-30 19:55:18 <lfm> oh so mtgox generated some bad txn then eligius put them in a block for them even if no one else would have?
 952 2011-10-30 19:55:53 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
 953 2011-10-30 19:57:18 <upb> haha way to fail
 954 2011-10-30 19:57:23 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rbe9b384 / lib/rpc/get.js : Miscellaneous fixes/additions to the RPC. (+5 more commits...) - http://git.io/l8CepQ
 955 2011-10-30 19:57:25 <upb> thast what you get when you write a bitcoind in PHP
 956 2011-10-30 19:57:32 <lfm> still the zero address part suggests to me they had a corrupt wallet file running or something like that
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 959 2011-10-30 19:58:50 <graingert> lfm: nope
 960 2011-10-30 19:58:55 <graingert> lfm: it was a hacked bitcoind
 961 2011-10-30 19:58:58 <graingert> and a hacked miner
 962 2011-10-30 19:59:14 <justmoon> graingert, why a hacked miner?
 963 2011-10-30 19:59:24 <justmoon> ah because they don't meet IsStandard()?
 964 2011-10-30 19:59:30 <BlueMatt> graingert: seems cool, but it will take at least another release before anything like that will get merged into bitcoin-qt, also bdb will have to be linked to support reading old wallets and converting them (which results in the same issues as if we just upgraded to bdb5.X)
 965 2011-10-30 19:59:45 <BlueMatt> and for 0.5, a decision has to be made wrt libdb5.X
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 967 2011-10-30 20:00:05 <graingert> luke-jr: claims old wallets will "just work"
 968 2011-10-30 20:00:17 <graingert> oh old wallets as in current wallets
 969 2011-10-30 20:00:33 <graingert> wallet.db vs wallet.export
 970 2011-10-30 20:00:34 <BlueMatt> for bdb5.X: bdb5.X will open old wallets just fine, no code changes necessary, just change the link
 971 2011-10-30 20:00:45 <graingert> that's good
 972 2011-10-30 20:00:47 <graingert> go for that afaik
 973 2011-10-30 20:00:48 <BlueMatt> but it will upgrade the wallet file and it will no longer be readable from bdb4.X
 974 2011-10-30 20:00:53 <graingert> ah
 975 2011-10-30 20:00:55 <graingert> that sucks
 976 2011-10-30 20:01:03 <BlueMatt> which is the reason Im using bdb4.X for now
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 978 2011-10-30 20:01:08 <graingert> but everyone on ubuntu will be using encrypted wallets anyway
 979 2011-10-30 20:01:15 <graingert> *
 980 2011-10-30 20:01:15 <lfm> ya what wont work is reading dbs touched by bdb5 with bdb4.8
 981 2011-10-30 20:01:19 <graingert> going from unencrypted to encrypted
 982 2011-10-30 20:01:54 <BlueMatt> (the encryption addition is why we switched from bdb4.7 to 4.8 with 0.4)
 983 2011-10-30 20:05:27 Moonies has joined
 984 2011-10-30 20:07:25 <graingert> most ubuntu'ers will be on the stretch ppa
 985 2011-10-30 20:07:58 <graingert> ppa:stretch/bitcoin
 986 2011-10-30 20:08:09 <graingert> as that's the only one that was about before
 987 2011-10-30 20:08:24 <graingert> and that's still on 0.3.24 I think
 988 2011-10-30 20:08:25 <lfm> and ubuntuers can still install bdb4.8 on 11.10 if they have a clue
 989 2011-10-30 20:09:05 <graingert> lfm: well not the issue is will people on 11.04 want to install lib5.1++ to use their new bitcoin wallet
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 992 2011-10-30 20:09:51 <graingert> I think do the same thing that was done for encryption and warn that importing a 4.8 db will cause the old wallet to be incompatible
 993 2011-10-30 20:10:00 <graingert> with older OS
 994 2011-10-30 20:10:04 maqr has joined
 995 2011-10-30 20:10:44 <lfm> why do you need bdb5.x?
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 997 2011-10-30 20:13:42 <graingert> lfm: ubuntu latest does not support bdb4.8
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 999 2011-10-30 20:13:58 <graingert> and I'm not keen on installing extra packages on people's pc
1000 2011-10-30 20:14:16 <graingert> a bitcoin with bdb4.8 deps will never get into multiverse
1001 2011-10-30 20:14:17 zhoutong has joined
1002 2011-10-30 20:14:20 <diki> hmm...windows is always backwards compatible
1003 2011-10-30 20:14:51 <diki> rather...most applications
1004 2011-10-30 20:15:06 <diki> so an app that works in 7 would theoretically work on 98 SE as well
1005 2011-10-30 20:15:08 <lfm> diki thats nice, but irrelevant
1006 2011-10-30 20:15:19 <diki> however an app that works on 11.10 but doesnt on 11.04 is fail...
1007 2011-10-30 20:15:25 <diki> which is what happened with me
1008 2011-10-30 20:15:34 <diki> gcc 4.6.2 is ONLY available to 11.10
1009 2011-10-30 20:16:03 <lfm> diki you can install any version of gcc on any version of linux you want
1010 2011-10-30 20:16:14 <diki> i couldnt for 11.04
1011 2011-10-30 20:16:24 <diki> it wasnt in the repository
1012 2011-10-30 20:16:29 <BlueMatt> oneiric HAS db4.8 packages in it, including libdb4.8-dev, it does NOT have libdb4.8++-dev and libdb4.8++ as the debian maintainers are trying to move people off of 4.8
1013 2011-10-30 20:16:39 <lfm> just cuz caonical or debian doesnt make a pretty package for you doesnt mean it cant be done
1014 2011-10-30 20:16:48 <graingert> lfm: it can be done
1015 2011-10-30 20:16:56 <graingert> and that's currently the way the ppa is swinging
1016 2011-10-30 20:17:06 <graingert> BlueMatt: would it be possible to have two ppa?
1017 2011-10-30 20:17:19 <BlueMatt> you mean one with 5.1 and one with 4.8?
1018 2011-10-30 20:17:20 <graingert> BlueMatt: bitcoin and bitcoinnewdb
1019 2011-10-30 20:17:23 <graingert> yep
1020 2011-10-30 20:17:28 <graingert> how much overhead is that?
1021 2011-10-30 20:17:56 <BlueMatt> not a single user has the wish to chose between the two...if they do they probably are building themselves
1022 2011-10-30 20:17:58 <graingert> I'd rather hook my ubuntu up to bitcoinnewdb
1023 2011-10-30 20:18:16 <BlueMatt> the goal of adding ppas is to make getting bitcoin running easy...
1024 2011-10-30 20:18:33 <graingert> well using the bitcoin/bitcoin repo would get bitcoin running easy
1025 2011-10-30 20:18:35 dgores has joined
1026 2011-10-30 20:18:53 <graingert> running bitcoin/newdb would get bitcoin running easy with 5.x
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1029 2011-10-30 20:19:41 <lfm> I actually found it rather easy to add bdb4.8++ to ubuntu 11.10
1030 2011-10-30 20:20:01 <graingert> lfm: it is but our ppa package will now try to wipe out yours
1031 2011-10-30 20:20:05 <BlueMatt> what Im currently looking at doing: creating a bdb4.8++ upload that ONLY does bdb4.8++ not bdb4.8 meaning it wont conflict
1032 2011-10-30 20:20:27 <BlueMatt> (but no telling how long its gonna take)
1033 2011-10-30 20:20:33 <lfm> graingert: didnt use ppa stuff, just the tar.gz stuff
1034 2011-10-30 20:20:40 <graingert> oh god
1035 2011-10-30 20:20:49 <graingert> lfm: you're free to fuck up your OS btw
1036 2011-10-30 20:20:51 <lfm> easy like i SAID
1037 2011-10-30 20:21:02 <lfm> IS IN /USR/LOCAL
1038 2011-10-30 20:21:08 <graingert> ^
1039 2011-10-30 20:21:25 <lfm> sorry caps lock slipped
1040 2011-10-30 20:21:45 <luke-jr> [15:28:46] <diki> who is the person who accidentally?
1041 2011-10-30 20:21:47 <luke-jr> MtGox
1042 2011-10-30 20:22:03 <BlueMatt> ...?
1043 2011-10-30 20:22:05 <luke-jr> [15:47:36] <BlueMatt> but it will upgrade the wallet file and it will no longer be readable from bdb4.X <-- citation needed
1044 2011-10-30 20:22:12 <lfm> luke threw away 2611 btc?
1045 2011-10-30 20:22:28 <luke-jr> MtGox bug destroyed 2611 BTC
1046 2011-10-30 20:22:34 <graingert> lfm: luke-jr helped mtgox throw away 2611 btc
1047 2011-10-30 20:22:36 <graingert> ish
1048 2011-10-30 20:22:39 <graingert> mtgox's fault
1049 2011-10-30 20:22:48 <dgores> Hello, Why is "OP_DUP, OP_HASH160, OP_PUBKEYHASH, OP_EQUALVERIFY, OP_CHECKSIG" preferred over "OP_PUBKEY, OP_CHECKSIG"?  Why is bitcoin address used insted of the public key itself?
1050 2011-10-30 20:22:49 <graingert> luke-jr mined it
1051 2011-10-30 20:22:49 <BlueMatt> what...?
1052 2011-10-30 20:22:55 <BlueMatt> mtgox lost 2611 BTC?
1053 2011-10-30 20:23:02 <luke-jr> dgores: address is shorter for humans to relay
1054 2011-10-30 20:23:03 <graingert> old news
1055 2011-10-30 20:23:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes
1056 2011-10-30 20:23:09 <BlueMatt> when was this?
1057 2011-10-30 20:23:13 <luke-jr> recently
1058 2011-10-30 20:23:20 <BlueMatt> not an answer
1059 2011-10-30 20:23:22 <lfm> dgores: length?
1060 2011-10-30 20:24:06 <lfm> bluematt see http://blockexplorer.com/t/59GUt4zqzS for instance
1061 2011-10-30 20:24:36 <BlueMatt> graingert: old news as in 2 days old...for people not as active in bitcoin that is very new...
1062 2011-10-30 20:24:51 <graingert> fair enough
1063 2011-10-30 20:25:10 <graingert> I've seen it being discussed way too many times :p
1064 2011-10-30 20:25:36 <graingert> lost my cool a little, sorry
1065 2011-10-30 20:25:47 <dgores> luke-jr: Ok, that makes sense.  Thanks.
1066 2011-10-30 20:25:56 <BlueMatt> oh, luke mined it because it was nonstd...
1067 2011-10-30 20:25:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: MtGox used their "anything at no fee" contract with Eligius to mine those
1068 2011-10-30 20:26:14 <BlueMatt> mmm, but no other pool would have taken it bc it is nonstd...
1069 2011-10-30 20:26:21 <graingert> luke-jr: can you rename your pool to something I can spell?
1070 2011-10-30 20:26:22 <BlueMatt> (not blaming you...)
1071 2011-10-30 20:26:35 <luke-jr> nor would Eligius if they hadn't explicitly asked us to
1072 2011-10-30 20:26:42 <luke-jr> graingert: not my fault you can't spell
1073 2011-10-30 20:26:53 <graingert> luke-jr: or leave a bot in #bitcoin and #bitcoin-dev called Eligius
1074 2011-10-30 20:26:56 <BlueMatt> now thats just rude...
1075 2011-10-30 20:26:58 <luke-jr> lol
1076 2011-10-30 20:26:59 <graingert> so I can tab complete it
1077 2011-10-30 20:27:56 <lfm> graingert: its in some bible or something if you need an updated spelling dictionairy
1078 2011-10-30 20:28:57 <graingert> I have a choice of Eligibles Elitism Eligibility  and  Religious
1079 2011-10-30 20:29:05 <graingert> so close
1080 2011-10-30 20:29:12 <luke-jr> http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Eligius
1081 2011-10-30 20:29:35 <lfm> graingert: if you use any of those most of us will know what you mean
1082 2011-10-30 20:29:40 <BlueMatt> names never make sense...welcome to the internet
1083 2011-10-30 20:29:44 <BlueMatt> ;)
1084 2011-10-30 20:29:50 <graingert> I'm going for Elitism
1085 2011-10-30 20:29:59 <graingert> Eloi would do
1086 2011-10-30 20:30:01 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1087 2011-10-30 20:30:03 <graingert> I can spell that
1088 2011-10-30 20:30:36 <lfm> or just Luke's pool
1089 2011-10-30 20:30:44 <graingert> prolly go for that
1090 2011-10-30 20:30:56 * BlueMatt always calls it luke's pool
1091 2011-10-30 20:31:03 <luke-jr> graingert: #Freenode says 3 weeks till I can claim the Eligius nick
1092 2011-10-30 20:31:29 <graingert> nice
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1109 2011-10-30 20:48:11 <graingert> BlueMatt: do you have any objection to the 5.x ppa?
1110 2011-10-30 20:48:32 <graingert> and have you discovered if luke-jr 's comment is true?
1111 2011-10-30 20:48:40 <graingert> I havn't found any information on it
1112 2011-10-30 20:48:52 <BlueMatt> a. whats luke's comment
1113 2011-10-30 20:49:26 <BlueMatt> b. objection...not really, however, Im making packages that will JUST include db4.8++ meaning they wont conflict with system-shipped packages, so I dont think it would be worth it at that point
1114 2011-10-30 20:49:35 <BlueMatt> and at that point, I would rather JUST have db4.8 ppa
1115 2011-10-30 20:49:38 <graingert> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/10/30/4#l2053947
1116 2011-10-30 20:50:00 <BlueMatt> what, he claims db4.8 can read db5.X db files?
1117 2011-10-30 20:50:06 <graingert> yes
1118 2011-10-30 20:50:52 * BlueMatt is pretty sure he tested that at one point...
1119 2011-10-30 20:51:10 <graingert> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=621374
1120 2011-10-30 20:51:27 <graingert> he packages which use Berkeley DB transactional mode need to upgrade the database files before the upgrade.  This is fairly straightforward and is well documented on the Berkeley DB website.  But you probably  already know that because it's not the first Berkeley DB transition.
1121 2011-10-30 20:52:06 <BlueMatt> the api is compatible
1122 2011-10-30 20:52:09 <BlueMatt> the files are not
1123 2011-10-30 20:52:23 <BlueMatt> (there is an identical bug on bitcoind on debian)
1124 2011-10-30 20:52:28 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1125 2011-10-30 20:52:30 <BlueMatt> (hence why bitcoind on debian uses db5.X)
1126 2011-10-30 20:52:32 <graingert> I see
1127 2011-10-30 20:53:10 <BlueMatt> (for bitcoin no upgrades should be needed, correct?)
1128 2011-10-30 20:53:11 <luke-jr> so don't use txnl mode…
1129 2011-10-30 20:53:19 <BlueMatt> just run with db5.X and it will upgrade automatically
1130 2011-10-30 20:54:23 <graingert> people shouldn't be moving wallets between machines anyway
1131 2011-10-30 20:55:06 <BlueMatt> thats not something we should impose on our users
1132 2011-10-30 20:55:12 <BlueMatt> "if you move your wallet, it will break"
1133 2011-10-30 20:55:15 <graingert> and we're going to have to switch to 5.X eventually
1134 2011-10-30 20:55:25 <BlueMatt> that is a ways off
1135 2011-10-30 20:56:22 <graingert> I'd push to bite the bullet
1136 2011-10-30 20:56:54 <BlueMatt> yes, I am 100% sure I DID test bdb versions on bitcoin, and 5.X upgraded wallets so that 4.X cannot open them
1137 2011-10-30 20:57:04 <BlueMatt> (4.X vs 4.Y only log files are incompatible)
1138 2011-10-30 20:57:39 <BlueMatt> graingert: then we are in the same situation but reversed...we have to ship db5.X packages in the repo for old versions
1139 2011-10-30 20:57:51 <graingert> no you don't
1140 2011-10-30 20:57:56 <graingert> do you?
1141 2011-10-30 20:58:01 <graingert> can't they stick with 4.X
1142 2011-10-30 20:58:10 <BlueMatt> then you are at the point of telling users their wallets wont work between oses
1143 2011-10-30 20:58:15 <graingert> do you need the same build script for all release
1144 2011-10-30 20:58:18 <BlueMatt> which is much worse
1145 2011-10-30 20:58:20 <graingert> well they shouldn't
1146 2011-10-30 20:58:27 <BlueMatt> why not?
1147 2011-10-30 20:58:30 <graingert> people shouldn't be moving their wallet
1148 2011-10-30 20:58:35 <graingert> only their coin
1149 2011-10-30 20:58:36 <BlueMatt> why not?
1150 2011-10-30 20:58:45 <BlueMatt> I dont think that is a reasonable restriction
1151 2011-10-30 20:58:56 <BlueMatt> especially when we can (fairly) easily avoid it
1152 2011-10-30 20:59:00 <graingert> okay stick to 4.8++
1153 2011-10-30 20:59:10 <graingert> and move to 5 once we have a standard interchange format
1154 2011-10-30 20:59:24 <graingert> does that sound like a deal?
1155 2011-10-30 20:59:25 <BlueMatt> I agree conflicting and overriding os-shipped packages is not acceptable, but I dont think we have to...
1156 2011-10-30 20:59:37 <BlueMatt> why move to 5 at all, if you are converting to a new format?
1157 2011-10-30 21:00:10 <graingert> well it would parse the wallet.json/proto/xml into a wallet.db
1158 2011-10-30 21:00:22 <BlueMatt> (note that we cant really switch to db5.X for another couple years due to old distros...)
1159 2011-10-30 21:00:32 <BlueMatt> which are still supported
1160 2011-10-30 21:00:42 <BlueMatt> and its easier to use an old version than a new one
1161 2011-10-30 21:00:50 <graingert> can you have different deps on each releasE?
1162 2011-10-30 21:00:52 <graingert> release*
1163 2011-10-30 21:00:57 <graingert> on laucnhpad?
1164 2011-10-30 21:01:04 ThomasV has joined
1165 2011-10-30 21:01:04 <graingert> launchpad*
1166 2011-10-30 21:01:05 <BlueMatt> you mean for each distro? yes
1167 2011-10-30 21:01:24 <graingert> so why not have a 4.8 build for natty-
1168 2011-10-30 21:01:32 <graingert> and a 5.x build for oneiric+
1169 2011-10-30 21:01:33 <BlueMatt> because then wallets arent portable
1170 2011-10-30 21:01:37 <BlueMatt> which imo is not acceptable
1171 2011-10-30 21:01:46 <graingert> but they would be if we had an export format
1172 2011-10-30 21:01:56 <graingert> my point being stick to 4.8 for now, till we have a standard export format
1173 2011-10-30 21:02:04 <graingert> then move to whatever the os supports
1174 2011-10-30 21:02:20 <BlueMatt> well Im not sure either way, but its not a decision that need be made now
1175 2011-10-30 21:02:37 <Eliel> if we make an export format, might as well make that the default wallet format :P
1176 2011-10-30 21:02:40 <BlueMatt> for now just stick with 4.8 for everything and we can reopen the debate when we have a standard exchange format...
1177 2011-10-30 21:02:47 <BlueMatt> Eliel: cant, it wont have tx support
1178 2011-10-30 21:02:49 <BlueMatt> (unless it does)
1179 2011-10-30 21:02:51 <Eliel> oh right
1180 2011-10-30 21:03:10 <graingert> Eliel: and export is different to the db format
1181 2011-10-30 21:03:18 <graingert> Eliel: the db can be machine dependant
1182 2011-10-30 21:03:50 <graingert> Eliel: multibit seem to have gone for a proto format
1183 2011-10-30 21:03:51 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1184 2011-10-30 21:04:04 <graingert> I'm personally not into proto and would rather have json
1185 2011-10-30 21:04:08 <BlueMatt> also, now that I think about it, I have no problem as long with os/machine-dependent db formats as long as there is a clean export option
1186 2011-10-30 21:04:09 <graingert> for it's much greater support
1187 2011-10-30 21:04:37 <graingert> which seems to be the way gpg works
1188 2011-10-30 21:04:44 <graingert> standard aa export options
1189 2011-10-30 21:04:50 <graingert> and you can store them however you want
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1191 2011-10-30 21:07:00 <BlueMatt> (also there is already a json export format as used by sipa's rpc export/import stuff)
1192 2011-10-30 21:07:03 zhoutong has joined
1193 2011-10-30 21:07:10 <graingert> BlueMatt gpg --export -a "User Name" > public.key
1194 2011-10-30 21:07:14 <graingert> for bitcoin
1195 2011-10-30 21:07:16 <graingert> I propose
1196 2011-10-30 21:07:23 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1197 2011-10-30 21:07:29 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rb823191 / lib/scriptinterpreter.js : Catch errors during signature verification and treat signature as invalid. - http://git.io/Z-EiMA
1198 2011-10-30 21:07:29 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * ra5c0f05 / lib/opcode.js : Dump OP_FALSE as OP_0 and OP_TRUE as OP_1. - http://git.io/hynA_A
1199 2011-10-30 21:07:35 <BlueMatt> meh, not my job to make an export decision
1200 2011-10-30 21:07:52 <graingert> BlueMatt: who's is it ? gavin?
1201 2011-10-30 21:08:03 <BlueMatt> essentially
1202 2011-10-30 21:08:22 <graingert> OP_EVAL seems his priority atm
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1204 2011-10-30 21:10:52 <graingert> BlueMatt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50368
1205 2011-10-30 21:10:57 <graingert> note my edit
1206 2011-10-30 21:11:27 <graingert> sounds good?
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1209 2011-10-30 21:14:54 <BlueMatt> yea, though I would note that afaik not many people really use ppas much, so conflicts should be a very, very, very minor issue
1210 2011-10-30 21:18:01 <BlueMatt> also, if they do their packages properly, they wont really conflict...
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1213 2011-10-30 21:19:45 <graingert> not many people really use ppas?
1214 2011-10-30 21:20:01 <graingert> it's the recomended way of installing unofficial software
1215 2011-10-30 21:20:15 <graingert> see ombubuntu or webupd8
1216 2011-10-30 21:20:33 <BlueMatt> well most software is in the repos
1217 2011-10-30 21:21:21 TD has joined
1218 2011-10-30 21:22:24 <graingert> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/220
1219 2011-10-30 21:22:38 <BlueMatt> yes, I know
1220 2011-10-30 21:22:45 <BlueMatt> thats what I referenced earlier
1221 2011-10-30 21:22:51 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> (also there is already a json export format as used by sipa's rpc export/import stuff)
1222 2011-10-30 21:22:53 <graingert> BlueMatt: oh I saw a different link
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1224 2011-10-30 21:22:59 <graingert> oh that
1225 2011-10-30 21:23:34 <graingert> once that's in we can think about db stuff then
1226 2011-10-30 21:23:41 <graingert> awesome so problem solved?
1227 2011-10-30 21:24:13 <BlueMatt> imo
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1229 2011-10-30 21:25:04 <graingert> nice
1230 2011-10-30 21:26:46 <graingert> !later tell gavinanderson it would be nice if wallet import export (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/220) could be pulled http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/10/30/5#l2054246 so we don't have to worry about machine dependant wallets
1231 2011-10-30 21:26:46 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1232 2011-10-30 21:27:09 <graingert> woops that link was supposed to go at the end
1233 2011-10-30 21:27:12 <graingert> oh well
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1235 2011-10-30 21:29:17 <luke-jr> graingert: there's a good reason it hasn't been pulled
1236 2011-10-30 21:29:28 <graingert> luke-jr: oh dear
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1238 2011-10-30 21:30:25 <luke-jr> graingert: import a key and all of a sudden there's a bunch of debits on your accounts
1239 2011-10-30 21:30:29 <luke-jr> unrelated debits
1240 2011-10-30 21:31:41 <graingert> oh dear
1241 2011-10-30 21:33:47 <graingert> well once that bug is fixed then
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1253 2011-10-30 21:54:35 <luke-jr> graingert: half the problem is that it *isn't* a bug :/
1254 2011-10-30 21:56:21 <graingert> ah
1255 2011-10-30 21:56:32 <graingert> do you get all the debits of the imported address?
1256 2011-10-30 21:57:05 <graingert> eg isn't that intentional?
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1258 2011-10-30 21:59:05 <luke-jr> it really depends on your intention of the import
1259 2011-10-30 21:59:17 <luke-jr> if you want to import a balance, you don't necessarily want the full history
1260 2011-10-30 21:59:24 <luke-jr> if you're restoring a backup, you do
1261 2011-10-30 21:59:42 <luke-jr> actually hmm
1262 2011-10-30 21:59:59 <luke-jr> case A (importing a balance), you don't *really* want to import the key either, just resend anything it controls to a secure address
1263 2011-10-30 22:00:00 <graingert> if you import a key pair
1264 2011-10-30 22:00:18 <graingert> you want their history
1265 2011-10-30 22:00:59 <Eliel> yes, if you didn't care for the history, you'll send the coins. If you care about the history, you'll import it.
1266 2011-10-30 22:01:41 <Eliel> in most cases, I'd expect the amount if history in your wallet to be the same, if it's just one key.
1267 2011-10-30 22:03:44 * luke-jr notes the history of a key is not necessarily related to its address
1268 2011-10-30 22:04:36 <luke-jr> perhaps import/export should be restricted to full wallets only, and have an additional function for "import this key as a redirector, immediately resending funds to a trusted key, and ignoring its history"
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1270 2011-10-30 22:08:29 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r8494687870bd / (5 files in 4 dirs): Updated nettest for latest changes.
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1279 2011-10-30 22:16:12 <Eliel> luke-jr: in what case would the history not be related to the address? example pelase.
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1283 2011-10-30 22:17:44 <luke-jr> Eliel: in most cases, actually
1284 2011-10-30 22:17:44 <lfm> eliel a gift
1285 2011-10-30 22:18:04 <luke-jr> Eliel: if you send someone 1 BTC, that 1 BTC could be from *any* address you have the key for
1286 2011-10-30 22:18:19 <luke-jr> even one you might export later, unrelated to the transaction you're about to make
1287 2011-10-30 22:19:14 <Eliel> I'd expect import/export keys to be mostly done between one's own wallets and sends for transactions to others but in that case it would make sense, yes.
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1289 2011-10-30 22:19:47 <Eliel> I mean, if you get a private key from someone else, it makes no sense to just import it. For security reasons, you'd want to transfer the bitcoins to a secure address.
1290 2011-10-30 22:20:42 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I think thats how import will have to be implemented generally because users won't realize how dangerous any other kind of import is if misused.
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1292 2011-10-30 22:21:03 <gmaxwell> It's sort of subtle what a mess imports can make.
1293 2011-10-30 22:22:03 <Eliel> true. Unless there's an easy question people can answer that can settle whether or not the keys should be just imported or not.
1294 2011-10-30 22:22:39 <Eliel> I mean, the other reason to import the keys from another wallet is so you can receive money through them.
1295 2011-10-30 22:23:00 <gmaxwell> You can still super confuse yourself even with just your own keys. E.g. say you have historical transactions which use a key you just imported in addition to keys you didn't import. What should the history show?
1296 2011-10-30 22:23:50 <Eliel> true. I guess ther distinction between whole wallet import and key import needs to be made.
1297 2011-10-30 22:24:26 <gmaxwell> Right now IIRC you won't see a txn in the history unless you have all of the relevant keys. .. if you allow spliting you can end up with txn showing up twice (in two wallets) which is just about as bad as showing up nowhere.
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1300 2011-10-30 22:25:23 <graingert> in that case I propose invalidating the key, and then keeping the key and automatically invalidating it on new tx into it
1301 2011-10-30 22:25:29 skeledrew has joined
1302 2011-10-30 22:25:37 <graingert> ie pulling all money from it, and pulling any new money into it out
1303 2011-10-30 22:26:15 <graingert> it would be usefull to put a record on the block chain to say you're changing the key for an address :p
1304 2011-10-30 22:26:34 <Eliel> would having two import methods work then? one called "wallet merge" and the other "import key"?
1305 2011-10-30 22:26:35 <graingert> ie all bitcoin to this address can be sent using this other address
1306 2011-10-30 22:27:03 <gmaxwell> graingert: thats the best I can come up with— but it means every time you double-import you'll have a doublespend war.
1307 2011-10-30 22:27:06 <graingert> Eliel: how about import money or import keys
1308 2011-10-30 22:27:22 <graingert> import keys you get a sort of harfling history
1309 2011-10-30 22:27:25 <Eliel> the "wallet merge" dialog might have a checkbox you can check to indicate whether the keys in the imported wallet can be trusted to be secure.
1310 2011-10-30 22:27:50 <gmaxwell> Eliel: Sure it's secure! only my spouse has another wallet with all of those!
1311 2011-10-30 22:28:04 <gmaxwell> (and then you're doublespending each other and getting funds stuck)
1312 2011-10-30 22:28:38 <gmaxwell> E.g. if I import a couple of your inputs in your wallet without you removing them, then if we spend at ~the same time we'll probably end up with stuck transactions.
1313 2011-10-30 22:29:00 <Eliel> uh, right.
1314 2011-10-30 22:29:13 <gmaxwell> E.g. I spend {E1 G1} and you spend {E1 E2}  .. one of these txn with lose, and either G1 and E2 become unspendable until someone hacks their wallet.
1315 2011-10-30 22:29:37 <gmaxwell> So yea, you think anyone is going to answer those questions correctly?
1316 2011-10-30 22:29:58 <gmaxwell> I can say that _I_ wouldn't— I didn't realize all these problems existed until someone pointed it out to me.
1317 2011-10-30 22:29:59 <graingert> in that case what should be supported
1318 2011-10-30 22:30:03 <graingert> is replacing your wallet
1319 2011-10-30 22:30:07 <graingert> with another
1320 2011-10-30 22:30:14 <graingert> and being able to switch between them
1321 2011-10-30 22:30:42 <graingert> importing a wallet will export your old one and replace it
1322 2011-10-30 22:30:55 <gmaxwell> Yea, multi-wallet support... Also, merge a full wallet that warns to not to use it in isolation anymore..  And a load-bitcoins-from keys is probably okay too. But what that should do is not show you any evidence of success until the merge has had several confirmations.
1323 2011-10-30 22:31:18 <gmaxwell> (and it should show failure if someone else successfully did the merge)
1324 2011-10-30 22:31:28 <graingert> sweet
1325 2011-10-30 22:31:34 <graingert> so it that problem 2 solved?
1326 2011-10-30 22:31:58 <gmaxwell> Yes, well. So go code it.. what SIPA coded just does the basic thing which seems to be unworkable.
1327 2011-10-30 22:32:13 <devrandom> BlueMatt: thanks
1328 2011-10-30 22:32:25 <BlueMatt> np?
1329 2011-10-30 22:32:31 <graingert> lol
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1334 2011-10-30 22:36:11 <devrandom> BlueMatt: does that resolve the problem with bool true != true that you had a few days ago?
1335 2011-10-30 22:36:19 <BlueMatt> yes
1336 2011-10-30 22:36:47 <devrandom> cool
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1343 2011-10-30 22:40:09 <devrandom> BlueMatt: is gavin now gitian enabled?
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1349 2011-10-30 22:46:54 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yes
1350 2011-10-30 22:47:12 <BlueMatt> though I havent spoken to him since the xcompile build was fixed
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1356 2011-10-30 22:55:15 <devrandom> BlueMatt: great
1357 2011-10-30 22:55:48 <devrandom> BlueMatt: any ideas about how to approach gitian for macos?
1358 2011-10-30 22:57:19 <BlueMatt> I did some googleing briefly and it looks like xcompiling for osx is possible, but you would probably have to ship your own environment...
1359 2011-10-30 22:57:27 <BlueMatt> (or create it with the vm creator
1360 2011-10-30 22:58:25 <BlueMatt> )
1361 2011-10-30 22:58:34 <devrandom> BlueMatt: are you saying that there are libs/headers required from osx?
1362 2011-10-30 22:58:50 <BlueMatt> yes, in addition to heavy patches to gcc that apple code dumps
1363 2011-10-30 22:58:58 <graingert> is it ever going to get on the mac app store :p
1364 2011-10-30 22:59:02 <devrandom> i.e. that you can't do a pure compile using open-source tools
1365 2011-10-30 22:59:03 <BlueMatt> (which you would have to do a lot of work)
1366 2011-10-30 22:59:14 <BlueMatt> no, you can, because apple uses gcc
1367 2011-10-30 22:59:25 <BlueMatt> which means they have to dump the mods they make
1368 2011-10-30 22:59:49 <BlueMatt> s/dump/apply/
1369 2011-10-30 23:00:09 <BlueMatt> s/apply/dump/...
1370 2011-10-30 23:00:20 <devrandom> hm... that's not ideal...
1371 2011-10-30 23:00:30 <BlueMatt> (though distributing their headers also has legal implications...)
1372 2011-10-30 23:00:40 <BlueMatt> no, its very non-ideal
1373 2011-10-30 23:00:43 <devrandom> right
1374 2011-10-30 23:00:55 <batouzo> EU is getting owned by China. Woot?
1375 2011-10-30 23:01:00 <graingert> how?
1376 2011-10-30 23:01:00 <BlueMatt> boo
1377 2011-10-30 23:01:06 <BlueMatt> also, how?
1378 2011-10-30 23:01:23 <graingert> it was sent out on like all channels
1379 2011-10-30 23:01:30 <devrandom> bailouts?
1380 2011-10-30 23:01:53 <batouzo> actually I was going to post to #btc-value not here whoops,  Anyway, it starts by France getting debt from China
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1385 2011-10-30 23:08:56 <batouzo> devrandom: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/10/201110279152753877.html
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1388 2011-10-30 23:12:47 <BlueMatt> ...
1389 2011-10-30 23:13:00 <graingert> meh
1390 2011-10-30 23:13:26 <BlueMatt> only mention of the word china in that article...last line
1391 2011-10-30 23:13:38 <BlueMatt> yay how irrelevant of an article can you link?
1392 2011-10-30 23:14:26 <devrandom> well, China does hold alot of US bonds
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1395 2011-10-30 23:16:50 <BlueMatt> so does every country
1396 2011-10-30 23:17:09 <BlueMatt> holding bonds doesnt mean you are doing better than or that you have any control over a particular country
1397 2011-10-30 23:17:52 <BlueMatt> holding a diverse set of bonds (especially if you are trying to control your currency's value) is just basic smart policy
1398 2011-10-30 23:18:34 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * rdfe01c1e718d /tests/net.cpp: Use std::atomic instead of std::mutex + size_t for barrier in nettest.
1399 2011-10-30 23:18:57 <devrandom> China holds *alot* of US bonds
1400 2011-10-30 23:19:33 <BlueMatt> yea, because they essentially peg their currency to the usd...
1401 2011-10-30 23:19:47 <devrandom> holding that much leads to strong interdepdendence
1402 2011-10-30 23:20:02 <BlueMatt> because their economy and the us' are already so intertwined
1403 2011-10-30 23:20:28 <devrandom> a bond holder can exercise some leverage ("do X or I will not buy any more bonds and your interest rates will go up")
1404 2011-10-30 23:20:56 <devrandom> and vice versa ("buy more bonds or our economy will go down the drain and we won't be able to pay")
1405 2011-10-30 23:21:05 <BlueMatt> true, but that is relatively little compared to what most people say "china ownes the us because they hold us debt, so they can just repossess our country"
1406 2011-10-30 23:21:05 <devrandom> it's about who blinks first
1407 2011-10-30 23:21:26 <BlueMatt> yea, if china does anything to hurt the us' economy they are also fucked, so...
1408 2011-10-30 23:21:39 <BlueMatt> either way they are both fucked...
1409 2011-10-30 23:22:00 <BlueMatt> also, the us could just say "fuck you, all chinese-held us debt is now considered invalid"...
1410 2011-10-30 23:22:14 <BlueMatt> not that that wouldnt cause a huge global economic problem...
1411 2011-10-30 23:22:28 <BlueMatt> us bonds become worthless and since so many people still depend on them...
1412 2011-10-30 23:23:17 <devrandom> well, that will decrease bond prices by the % probability that remaining purchasers assign to the event that they will be singled out too
1413 2011-10-30 23:23:23 <devrandom> could easily be 10% or more
1414 2011-10-30 23:23:42 <devrandom> especially on the long term ones
1415 2011-10-30 23:23:44 <BlueMatt> no, it would also kill interest rates quite a bit
1416 2011-10-30 23:23:49 <devrandom> 30 years
1417 2011-10-30 23:24:16 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * cc46a9623436 r176 / (18 files in 10 dirs): Almost there. Some irritating bug remains where extranonce in work metadata is 2 higher that extranonce in the original coinbase.
1418 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 3739a7b1b341 r177 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/WorkProxy.java:
1419 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: - fix for restoreWorkMap. Now that workmaps are not cycled per block the
1420 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: blocknumber is no longer relevent when loading the map from disk. Only work age
1421 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: matters and old works will be cleaned out on the next Cleaner cycle so we simply
1422 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: accept everything from the file into the workmap.
1423 2011-10-30 23:24:17 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * af332b291329 r178 /poolserverj-core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/BuildableBlock.java: - force initial merkle root of generated block to use coinbaseBytes array instead of serialized version
1424 2011-10-30 23:24:18 <CIA-101> poolserverj: shadders * 9b7aa9dede76 r179 /poolserverj-main/src/main/java/com/shadworld/poolserver/source/WorkSource.java: - when retrieving work from cache add validate check to ensure work is not expired and continue polling until one is found that is valid or cache is empty.
1425 2011-10-30 23:24:52 <BlueMatt> but even higher interest rates are payable if there is no debt...
1426 2011-10-30 23:26:02 <devrandom> BlueMatt: http://www.bond-bubble.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=14
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1429 2011-10-30 23:26:29 <BlueMatt> thats a huge chunk...
1430 2011-10-30 23:26:34 <graingert> well I'm going to bed before I spend all night on redit
1431 2011-10-30 23:26:37 <graingert> reddit*
1432 2011-10-30 23:26:55 <devrandom> looks like China only holds about 13%
1433 2011-10-30 23:26:56 <BlueMatt> though the resulting financial meltdown in any us-china showdown would mean no one would be able to pay anything so...
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1435 2011-10-30 23:27:29 <BlueMatt> I would think it would have gone down significantly since 2009
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1437 2011-10-30 23:27:48 <BlueMatt> (china is trying to diversify to some extent)
1438 2011-10-30 23:28:25 <devrandom> right
1439 2011-10-30 23:28:30 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * re5d01f9262ad /tests/net.cpp: BUGFIX: nettest, inv_count should increment by number of inventories
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1441 2011-10-30 23:29:14 <BlueMatt> (my argument was more along the lines of, if china tried to exercise control over the us using their bond holdings)
1442 2011-10-30 23:33:20 <devrandom> ok
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1448 2011-10-30 23:41:01 <itstooez> ;;bc,calcd 2000 1203809
1449 2011-10-30 23:41:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1203809, is 81 years, 50 weeks, 5 days, 20 hours, 2 minutes, and 22 seconds
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1452 2011-10-30 23:43:35 <batouzo> BlueMatt: that last line is the important one. This article didn't get more into this topic because this is too fresh news to say much about it
1453 2011-10-30 23:43:53 <BlueMatt> ...wow that is stunningly  ignorant
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1455 2011-10-30 23:45:08 <batouzo> BlueMatt: what is?
1456 2011-10-30 23:45:46 <BlueMatt> your last comment
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1458 2011-10-30 23:47:01 <batouzo> because?
1459 2011-10-30 23:47:08 <BlueMatt> because of how stunningly stupid it is
1460 2011-10-30 23:47:59 <batouzo> ok, you win by declaring that you are right. Thanks for cool discussion
1461 2011-10-30 23:48:09 <BlueMatt> making a claim based on one sentence in a random article?
1462 2011-10-30 23:48:15 <BlueMatt> do I have to argue?
1463 2011-10-30 23:48:22 <BlueMatt> you havent
1464 2011-10-30 23:49:07 <batouzo> following article seems to tell more about France lending from China problem - http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/30/eurozone-china-france-idUSL5E7LU04S20111030
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1467 2011-10-30 23:53:10 <BlueMatt> france is asking china for money...and? That doesnt mean that all-of-a-sudden china is leading eurozone in economic prosperity, it means china has more money, however china is still a very heavily manufacturing-oriented economy with a huge gap between rich and poor, I would never argue that china is "owning the EU"
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1469 2011-10-30 23:53:25 <BlueMatt> I would say that, by far, the EU is "owning china"
1470 2011-10-30 23:53:40 <BlueMatt> when it comes to overall economic prosperity
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1475 2011-10-30 23:54:38 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell graingert uploaded a ++-only version of db4.8 to ppa, pretty sure it wont work, but at least its closer...
1476 2011-10-30 23:54:39 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1479 2011-10-30 23:55:05 <batouzo> yeap that statement was over dramatic actually :) To be literal better I can say - it looks like "it" is starting (EU dependency on China)
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1481 2011-10-30 23:57:06 <BlueMatt> heh, you realize in macroeconomics dependencies always go both ways
1482 2011-10-30 23:57:19 <BlueMatt> (with two sufficiently large economies)
1483 2011-10-30 23:58:10 <batouzo> yea but I would guess in such china-EU relation, china would be the ones dominating so it is a bad thing for EU (citizens). You think otherwise?
1484 2011-10-30 23:58:33 <CIA-101> bitcoin: CFSworks * r1182eaea36d2 Phoenix-Miner/minerutil/ (RPCProtocol.py _newclient3420.py client3420.py): Modify RPCProtocol to use httplib instead of Twisted for persistent HTTP connections.
1485 2011-10-30 23:58:39 <devrandom> BTW, I think China's economy is larger than the EU
1486 2011-10-30 23:59:00 <BlueMatt> heh, the us' dependency on china has been a very good thing for the us, and now china is equally or more Dependant on the us than the us is on china
1487 2011-10-30 23:59:10 <BlueMatt> it would be the same thing in europe
1488 2011-10-30 23:59:28 <BlueMatt> (well its a very good short-term thing for the us, not long-term)