1 2011-10-31 00:00:11 <batouzo> yeap
2 2011-10-31 00:00:29 <batouzo> but what if China would just go after say EU gold or other actual assets
3 2011-10-31 00:00:56 <BlueMatt> devrandom: true, but the eu is sufficiently large to create a chinese dependency on eu consumers
4 2011-10-31 00:01:00 <batouzo> since they know EU economy is crappy so they will be not here for our "excelent" factories or other infrastructure
5 2011-10-31 00:01:15 <BlueMatt> wtf are you talking about?
6 2011-10-31 00:01:32 <devrandom> at some point China will be large enough to create internal demand
7 2011-10-31 00:01:33 <BlueMatt> if china would go after eu assets...HOW?
8 2011-10-31 00:01:40 * batouzo pokes da2ce7 as business expert ;)
9 2011-10-31 00:01:56 <da2ce7> lol
10 2011-10-31 00:02:04 <BlueMatt> devrandom: true, but they need consumers first, and the percent of their economy that has large disposable income is...lacking
11 2011-10-31 00:02:08 <da2ce7> china is here for the gold in the madrid safes.
12 2011-10-31 00:02:29 <BlueMatt> and get it...how?
13 2011-10-31 00:02:36 <batouzo> trucks?
14 2011-10-31 00:02:39 <da2ce7> collatral
15 2011-10-31 00:02:44 <BlueMatt> hahahahaha
16 2011-10-31 00:02:50 <BlueMatt> you think there is collateral on bonds?
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18 2011-10-31 00:03:24 <da2ce7> BlueMatt, that is the funny part. China dosn't give out money without collateral.
19 2011-10-31 00:03:33 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: see: us bond holdings...
20 2011-10-31 00:04:33 <da2ce7> but that is different to what is happening in europe.
21 2011-10-31 00:04:42 <BlueMatt> no, it really isnt
22 2011-10-31 00:04:54 <BlueMatt> if china is going to "give the eu money" it will be in the form of bond buying
23 2011-10-31 00:04:58 <BlueMatt> which holds no collateral
24 2011-10-31 00:05:07 <da2ce7> yes, it really is... this is for a bail-out fund...
25 2011-10-31 00:05:22 <BlueMatt> yea, and a bail-out would be...buy bonds
26 2011-10-31 00:06:00 <da2ce7> didn't you read the http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2011/10/2011102814832221582.html
27 2011-10-31 00:06:12 <da2ce7> China, which has $3.2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves, was "interested in finding attractive, solid, safe investment opportunities," he told a media briefing.
28 2011-10-31 00:06:34 <da2ce7> aka, not euro bonds without collateral.
29 2011-10-31 00:06:57 <BlueMatt> yea, bonds
30 2011-10-31 00:07:17 <BlueMatt> I read that very differently
31 2011-10-31 00:07:41 <BlueMatt> in other words "we are considering buying EU bonds assuming we think they are safe investment opportunities"
32 2011-10-31 00:08:02 <da2ce7> china isn't on a shopping spree for euro bonds... :P I think that china has differnt plans.
33 2011-10-31 00:08:12 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
34 2011-10-31 00:08:24 <BlueMatt> yea, keeping the world's economy propped up so that demand for chinese goods doesnt go to 0...
35 2011-10-31 00:08:31 <BlueMatt> in other words, keeping the whole world alive...
36 2011-10-31 00:08:36 <batouzo> greece fucked over investors by 50% nullifying their bonds. you think chins will now fall for no-collatral
37 2011-10-31 00:08:46 <da2ce7> A: they don't export any Gold, all of it is kept in China.
38 2011-10-31 00:09:06 <BlueMatt> how is that relevant to anything?
39 2011-10-31 00:09:16 <da2ce7> B: They have de-illeagalized the private holding of Gold.
40 2011-10-31 00:09:26 <BlueMatt> batouzo: "fall for it" is the reason they said exactly what da2ce7 just quoted
41 2011-10-31 00:09:28 <da2ce7> and encouraged private Gold owniship.
42 2011-10-31 00:09:44 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: wait, holding gold in china as a private person used to be illegal?
43 2011-10-31 00:09:52 <da2ce7> yep
44 2011-10-31 00:09:52 <BlueMatt> what kind of fucked up country is that?
45 2011-10-31 00:10:13 <BlueMatt> and now the de-illegalization means they wont buy euro bonds w/o collateral?
46 2011-10-31 00:10:18 <BlueMatt> wtf are you smoking?
47 2011-10-31 00:10:21 <BlueMatt> (because I want some)
48 2011-10-31 00:10:25 <batouzo> btw usa did that too
49 2011-10-31 00:10:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: they have plenty to smoke in Chapel Hill from what I hear ;-)
50 2011-10-31 00:10:39 <BlueMatt> made it illegal to hold gold?
51 2011-10-31 00:10:40 <batouzo> in history
52 2011-10-31 00:10:42 <batouzo> yes
53 2011-10-31 00:10:48 <jgarzik> bunch o' liberal hippies live in Chapel Hill
54 2011-10-31 00:10:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: actually just ran out last night...damn dealer is low...
55 2011-10-31 00:10:53 * da2ce7 is putting his bets on china wanting and planning to launch their currecny as a backed currency with Gold.
56 2011-10-31 00:10:58 <BlueMatt> (oh wait, wasnt supposed to say that)
57 2011-10-31 00:11:10 Encyclopedia has joined
58 2011-10-31 00:11:17 <da2ce7> it is in the long-term goal to get the Gold in the madrid safes...
59 2011-10-31 00:11:28 <da2ce7> I bet there will be some clause to that effect.
60 2011-10-31 00:11:38 <luke-jr> they had to deillegalize private gold to do computers
61 2011-10-31 00:11:42 <BlueMatt> this is the most random, nonsensical argument Ive ever heard
62 2011-10-31 00:12:17 <da2ce7> except now china is the biggers importer of Gold in the world.
63 2011-10-31 00:12:20 <da2ce7> *biggest.
64 2011-10-31 00:12:40 <batouzo> BlueMatt: care to argue it? if you want to go personal-attacks we can just say you have no idea of USA history (delegalized gold), so please say exactly what you find nonsesicial instead k?
65 2011-10-31 00:14:20 <batouzo> BlueMatt: 1 WEEK AGO greece just actually did fucked over investors for 50% of *bonds* by just nullifying them ("you have to spare us half of the debt or greece bankrupt and you have nothing"). How stupid would China have to be to now also buy EU bonds that just proven to be quite worthless?
66 2011-10-31 00:15:46 <JFK911> batouzo: what's that prove? solidcoin is still allowed to exist for some reason.
67 2011-10-31 00:15:55 <BlueMatt> do you have a single source that says at any point in us history was it illegal to hold gold as a us citizen?
68 2011-10-31 00:16:12 <BlueMatt> and yes, I never said greece didnt fuck over a ton of investors
69 2011-10-31 00:16:39 <batouzo> Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933, by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificates within the continental United States". The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.
70 2011-10-31 00:16:42 <batouzo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
71 2011-10-31 00:16:45 theorb has joined
72 2011-10-31 00:16:53 <JFK911> Presidential Executive Order 6102
73 2011-10-31 00:16:53 <JFK911> Forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion and Gold Certificates By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5(b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended by Section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, entitled
74 2011-10-31 00:16:57 <JFK911> An Act to provide relief in the existing national emergency in banking, and for other purposes~',
75 2011-10-31 00:17:10 <batouzo> it seems everyone else knows how to google ;)
76 2011-10-31 00:17:11 <JFK911> oh damn im beaten
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78 2011-10-31 00:17:18 <JFK911> should have had that number memorised
79 2011-10-31 00:17:21 <BlueMatt> "There was only one prosecution under the order, and in that case the order was ruled invalid by federal judge John M. Woolsey, on the grounds that the order was signed by the President, not the Secretary of the Treasury as required.[4]"
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81 2011-10-31 00:17:27 <BlueMatt> in other words, it never got applied
82 2011-10-31 00:17:35 <batouzo> BlueMatt: no one said it was
83 2011-10-31 00:17:50 <BlueMatt> anyway, thats kinda funny (that it was made illegal)
84 2011-10-31 00:18:00 <JFK911> BlueMatt: I'm pretty sure the proclamation caused most people to turn their gold in
85 2011-10-31 00:18:08 <BlueMatt> hm, interesting
86 2011-10-31 00:18:14 <JFK911> I'm also sure that gold was in fact siezed
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90 2011-10-31 00:18:22 <JFK911> that action doesn't need to be party to a criminal prosecution
91 2011-10-31 00:18:23 <BlueMatt> anyway, that doesnt make batouzo's argument any more coherent
92 2011-10-31 00:18:27 <batouzo> yes, countries making bad laws that does not get applied anyway is funny. Actually, sad. Illegal to have gold, ganja, songs saved from internts and so on
93 2011-10-31 00:18:51 <BlueMatt> pretty much
94 2011-10-31 00:19:06 <da2ce7> BlueMatt, yes it dose.... As Chinees people LOVE to hold gold... Why would china want their population to hold Gold?
95 2011-10-31 00:19:10 <JFK911> well, there is an important point. people look at laws and traditions and assume that authorities will be rational and not simply do as they please
96 2011-10-31 00:19:17 <da2ce7> and why would they originaly ban the holding of Gold.
97 2011-10-31 00:19:23 <JFK911> we can't figure out what any of the authorities will do.
98 2011-10-31 00:19:34 <batouzo> BlueMatt: don't know how about da2ce7's argument, but I am saying, in the discussion of "China will own EU" that china will go for gold, because: greece just fucked over investors (as you agree) so china will not repeat this mistake and will want something. Probably gold. Well ok, perhaps silver instea
99 2011-10-31 00:19:38 <JFK911> da2ce7: to fund war, i believe
100 2011-10-31 00:20:22 <da2ce7> The legalize holding Gold will drammaticaly increase China's overall Gold holdings.
101 2011-10-31 00:20:41 <da2ce7> *of gold.
102 2011-10-31 00:21:05 <BlueMatt> so...you are saying that china will buy eu bonds and get a clause added that says if they arent paid, portugal will give china gold as collateral. And the reason you think this is a. greece just defaulted and "china isnt stupid" and b. china just de-illegalized gold holding by private individuals
103 2011-10-31 00:21:28 <BlueMatt> a. ok, its a valid argument but the eu has a much stronger bargaining position...
104 2011-10-31 00:21:49 <BlueMatt> b. WTF??? does no one else think this is such a completely far-fetched insane incoherent arguemtn?
105 2011-10-31 00:21:53 <BlueMatt> argument*
106 2011-10-31 00:21:55 <batouzo> BlueMatt: *I* am saying that more or less, without considering it is legal or not to hold. I simply do not think china will be happy with "just bonds" if they where JUST PROVEN to be trash
107 2011-10-31 00:22:12 <BlueMatt> eu bonds != greek bonds
108 2011-10-31 00:22:21 <batouzo> and I don't think EU will be in much position to negotiate since shit is coming apart here
109 2011-10-31 00:22:25 <Eliel> politics? here?
110 2011-10-31 00:22:28 <BlueMatt> also, more european defaults and issues will hurt china as much as anyone...
111 2011-10-31 00:22:40 <Eliel> oh wait, monetary stuff.
112 2011-10-31 00:22:42 <BlueMatt> ...in the eu
113 2011-10-31 00:22:47 <batouzo> BlueMatt: in EU many countires are in problems like greece. Perhaps even most of EU
114 2011-10-31 00:22:57 <BlueMatt> trololololol
115 2011-10-31 00:23:04 <BlueMatt> hahahahahaha
116 2011-10-31 00:23:07 <BlueMatt> are you fucking kidding me?
117 2011-10-31 00:23:09 <batouzo> BlueMatt: you want me to google that for you as well?
118 2011-10-31 00:23:13 <JFK911> if the EU is in such dire straits why is their money still worth more than a dollar
119 2011-10-31 00:23:31 <BlueMatt> "a laugh a day keeps the doctor away"
120 2011-10-31 00:23:46 * BlueMatt thinks he might be able to keep the doctor away for years after tonight
121 2011-10-31 00:23:50 <da2ce7> JFK911, wtf; you are comparing a inter-fiat trading rate???
122 2011-10-31 00:24:08 <JFK911> someone last night told me that bitcoins were designed to decrease in value because there is a limited supply
123 2011-10-31 00:24:11 <da2ce7> that is just depending on howmuch was printed..
124 2011-10-31 00:24:16 <batouzo> JFK911: that is a good question, I will reply in a moment
125 2011-10-31 00:24:17 <cocktopus> an apple a day keeps the doctor away, if you have good aim
126 2011-10-31 00:24:24 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: in this case a valid comparison due to the fact that the euro started lower than the usd
127 2011-10-31 00:24:25 <JFK911> the bad: he has a bachelors in economics
128 2011-10-31 00:24:33 <JFK911> what makes it make sense: the degree is from strayer
129 2011-10-31 00:24:39 <BlueMatt> heheh
130 2011-10-31 00:24:49 <batouzo> cocktopus: *btw* are you a cross-bread of octopous and.. something else? :P
131 2011-10-31 00:24:59 <da2ce7> BlueMatt, I think that it is a silly conpasrament, as the euro has grown much larger than when it was started...
132 2011-10-31 00:24:59 <cocktopus> sounds liek i :D
133 2011-10-31 00:25:03 <cocktopus> it*
134 2011-10-31 00:25:13 <da2ce7> without proportinaly increasing supply
135 2011-10-31 00:25:41 <JFK911> i remember buying euros for $1.10
136 2011-10-31 00:25:57 <JFK911> hah $1.42 today
137 2011-10-31 00:26:03 <JFK911> thanks george bush
138 2011-10-31 00:26:23 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: I think that you have a valid point but have yet to back it up with any sensible argument
139 2011-10-31 00:26:45 <batouzo> JFK911: I think that simply because it was quite strong to begin with, and then they added new countries without proportionally increasing supply of Â. Also, USD is *also* falling.
140 2011-10-31 00:26:45 <batouzo> You can say within USD/EUR
141 2011-10-31 00:26:45 <JFK911> perhaps the dollar is actually worth more because i can purchase more gasoline with it
142 2011-10-31 00:27:00 <batouzo> You can say within USD/EUR the EUR is quite high yet, just because .. they all fail (with similar speed) :)
143 2011-10-31 00:27:10 <JFK911> petrol in germany costs something like $3 per litre
144 2011-10-31 00:27:19 <BlueMatt> batouzo: as does the yuan...
145 2011-10-31 00:27:36 <BlueMatt> anyway...
146 2011-10-31 00:27:36 * BlueMatt has homework to do, so I have to go
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148 2011-10-31 00:28:18 <da2ce7> China has been dramaticaly increasing their national Gold holdings (Goveremnt + Private)... They need massive holdings to fully back Yuan.
149 2011-10-31 00:28:34 <da2ce7> * 5% back.
150 2011-10-31 00:28:38 <da2ce7> not fully back...
151 2011-10-31 00:28:43 <batouzo> JFK911: what I am sure, is that, every politician and every citizen in EU talk how much we are fucked up, how economy goes to shit.
152 2011-10-31 00:28:49 <da2ce7> there isn't enough gold in the wolrd to do that.
153 2011-10-31 00:29:03 <batouzo> JFK911: also, EUR is going way down, compare to AU
154 2011-10-31 00:29:13 <batouzo> afaik
155 2011-10-31 00:29:20 <da2ce7> they used to be at what 1%, 8 years ago... now they are at 3%... that is a 2x increase in holdings in 8 years.
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157 2011-10-31 00:29:38 <da2ce7> far faster than the growth of their economy.
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160 2011-10-31 00:33:04 * batouzo victory ;)
161 2011-10-31 00:33:10 <da2ce7> lol
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180 2011-10-31 00:56:15 <denisx> JFK911: petrol in germany costs â¬1.60 per litre
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182 2011-10-31 00:56:30 <luke-jr> litres are for failures
183 2011-10-31 00:56:51 batouzo has joined
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185 2011-10-31 00:56:57 <JFK911> denisx: wow thats a lot
186 2011-10-31 00:57:06 <JFK911> even if not as much as i thought, still expensive
187 2011-10-31 00:57:34 <luke-jr> I have to pay like $3.40 per gallon here :|
188 2011-10-31 00:57:34 <JFK911> batouzo: i also bought AU dollars for $0.60-0.65 in the past :(
189 2011-10-31 00:57:56 <denisx> ok, I looked it up, it is 1,45⬠per litre
190 2011-10-31 00:57:58 <JFK911> luke get diesel then you can fill up from your furnace's tank
191 2011-10-31 00:58:22 <luke-jr> JFK911: no, non-taxed diesel is dyed so cops can spot it
192 2011-10-31 00:58:35 <JFK911> when was the last time your fuel tank was searched
193 2011-10-31 00:58:52 <luke-jr> JFK911: it colours the exhaust
194 2011-10-31 00:59:16 BlueMatt has joined
195 2011-10-31 00:59:17 <luke-jr> also, no furnace here-- just a big generator
196 2011-10-31 00:59:37 <JFK911> i've never heard of that, but the dye is detectable in the oil at low concentrations
197 2011-10-31 00:59:41 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell graingert actually, it did work...Im now happy with the ppa as it stands (though more 3rd-party testing would be nice)
198 2011-10-31 00:59:42 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
199 2011-10-31 00:59:43 <JFK911> the primary target for this is trucking
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201 2011-10-31 01:00:02 <JFK911> i would LOVE to see some VW driver get busted for this
202 2011-10-31 01:00:21 <JFK911> as in i would LOVE to see obama create some jobs
203 2011-10-31 01:00:33 <luke-jr> â¦
204 2011-10-31 01:00:33 <batouzo> American Invents!!!
205 2011-10-31 01:00:41 <batouzo> new ways to waste time in inefficient economy
206 2011-10-31 01:00:50 <JFK911> occupy something!
207 2011-10-31 01:00:58 <Ukto> luke-jr: where can you get non-taxed diesel ?
208 2011-10-31 01:00:59 <luke-jr> occupy #bitcoin-dev
209 2011-10-31 01:01:14 <luke-jr> Ukto: dunno, I'd have to ask my dad (it's his generator)
210 2011-10-31 01:01:27 <JFK911> Any oil dealer
211 2011-10-31 01:01:32 <Ukto> thats interesting cause i never heard of it
212 2011-10-31 01:01:37 <luke-jr> by non-taxed, I mean "no road tax", not "no sales tax"
213 2011-10-31 01:01:41 <batouzo> luke-jr: did you trolled him into changing generator's digital display into tonal?
214 2011-10-31 01:01:45 <Ukto> yeah
215 2011-10-31 01:01:48 <JFK911> if they deliver it, and it's obviously not for road use, you get the dye and no tax
216 2011-10-31 01:01:48 <Ukto> i got a small house generator
217 2011-10-31 01:01:51 <Ukto> for emergencies
218 2011-10-31 01:01:56 <luke-jr> batouzo: it doesn't have a display.
219 2011-10-31 01:02:03 <JFK911> this applies to generation, heating, farming
220 2011-10-31 01:02:11 <JFK911> as well as almost all industrial uses
221 2011-10-31 01:02:41 <Ukto> I rarely need deisel for my gen tho
222 2011-10-31 01:02:54 <Ukto> besides, i wanna put a perm gen install on the house with a LP tank
223 2011-10-31 01:03:01 <JFK911> diesel engines will also burn aviation kerosene
224 2011-10-31 01:03:10 <JFK911> how is this taxed?
225 2011-10-31 01:03:18 <luke-jr> kerosene is explosive..
226 2011-10-31 01:03:22 <JFK911> yeah, my audi runs on jet fuel!
227 2011-10-31 01:03:24 <luke-jr> I'll stick to diesel
228 2011-10-31 01:03:55 <JFK911> the military is running it in trucks, etc. without problems
229 2011-10-31 01:04:10 <JFK911> "one fuel for all machines" jp-5, jp-8
230 2011-10-31 01:04:29 <luke-jr> why would you prefer something less safe?
231 2011-10-31 01:04:59 <luke-jr> everything should be diesel :p
232 2011-10-31 01:05:16 * luke-jr wonders if veggie oil is explosive or not
233 2011-10-31 01:05:23 <JFK911> last 'explosion' i saw with that stuff involved two large buildings like ten years ago
234 2011-10-31 01:07:13 <JFK911> i believe veg oil will ignite under pressure like diesel. at least it can be processed into such a form with common supplies
235 2011-10-31 01:07:16 <cocktopus> luke-jr: you can use vegetable oil as a substitute for diesel, after a little processing
236 2011-10-31 01:07:30 <luke-jr> cocktopus: I know. that's my point
237 2011-10-31 01:07:32 <cocktopus> mix it with kerosene for a quick and dirty hack
238 2011-10-31 01:07:34 <JFK911> northern tool sells a processing cell
239 2011-10-31 01:07:43 <JFK911> i think you dump in water and one of the strong acids?
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241 2011-10-31 01:07:53 <cocktopus> sufuric or something
242 2011-10-31 01:07:56 <JFK911> yea
243 2011-10-31 01:07:56 <luke-jr> but the key thing is that when you get in an accident, you don't want to risk your vehicle exploding
244 2011-10-31 01:08:00 <cocktopus> that machien produces cleaner stuff
245 2011-10-31 01:08:13 <cocktopus> than just useing straight oil with kerosene
246 2011-10-31 01:08:27 <JFK911> if jet kerosene was explosive, i would think IED's in iraq would have been a bigger problem
247 2011-10-31 01:08:49 <JFK911> results would be more spectacular instead of the humvee being tipped over
248 2011-10-31 01:09:16 <cocktopus> lol
249 2011-10-31 01:11:05 <batouzo> why people talk over iraq it got boring 9 years ago
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294 2011-10-31 02:23:30 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * r505e1af70346 / (6 files in 4 dirs): handshake convenience wrapper.
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299 2011-10-31 02:33:53 <CIA-101> libbitcoin: genjix * reec55c6e2893 /tests/net.cpp: use std::array.fill(0) instead of {0, 0, 0, ...
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302 2011-10-31 02:39:01 <diki> tcatm:where can i have a look at your original 4way implementation?
303 2011-10-31 02:39:17 <diki> the one in cgminer/minerd is not your original one
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308 2011-10-31 02:44:46 <theymos> I'm surprised at how many bugs there have been in Script. OP_CHECKMULTISIG is broken and now OP_0 has been determined to not work. You'd think Satoshi would have put a lot of time into perfecting this part, since it can't be easily changed.
309 2011-10-31 02:45:26 <gmaxwell> theymos: eh, check multisig's breakage is kinda boring.
310 2011-10-31 02:45:52 <gmaxwell> whats this with OP_0?
311 2011-10-31 02:46:11 <luke-jr> how can OP_0 be broken? O.o
312 2011-10-31 02:46:39 <theymos> OP_0 should push a numeric 0 value onto the stack, but it actually "pushes 0 bytes" -- a no-op. You have to subtract 1 from OP_1 if you want 0...
313 2011-10-31 02:47:47 <luke-jr> O.o
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321 2011-10-31 02:57:58 <batouzo> theymos: funny that this wanst detected in practice yet
322 2011-10-31 02:58:50 zhoutong has joined
323 2011-10-31 02:59:09 <theymos> It was discovered by genjix after someone used it in those recent broken transactions.
324 2011-10-31 02:59:50 <Diablo-D3> what was?
325 2011-10-31 03:00:05 <Diablo-D3> oh now I see
326 2011-10-31 03:00:15 <Diablo-D3> theymos: satoshi is an okay software engineer, but hes a shitty coder
327 2011-10-31 03:00:31 <Diablo-D3> hes an academic
328 2011-10-31 03:00:42 <Diablo-D3> he can design the systems pretty well, but not implement them worth a damn
329 2011-10-31 03:01:02 <Diablo-D3> very rarely do you get someone who does both good, so Im not going to blame him for it
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336 2011-10-31 03:23:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: Please. You have a very warped idea about the abilities of a "good coder"
337 2011-10-31 03:24:09 <[Tycho]> Scripts are cool.
338 2011-10-31 03:24:24 <gmaxwell> The best coder on earth can't create systems even simpler than bitcoin without bugs. The software used in aerospace is only reliable due to insane testing requirements.
339 2011-10-31 03:24:34 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
340 2011-10-31 03:24:47 <Diablo-D3> good coders can cat /dev/urandom into a .pl file, have it actually run, and then understand what it does after 6 months of not reviewing the code
341 2011-10-31 03:25:13 <Diablo-D3> a GREAT coder can do it with lisp.
342 2011-10-31 03:25:23 <cocktopus> lol
343 2011-10-31 03:25:25 <gmaxwell> (e.g. having a test setup which does full combinatoric satisfication of all branch conditions, and other insane things which are only pratical if you make the software very simple)
344 2011-10-31 03:27:05 <copumpkin> academic == shit coder?
345 2011-10-31 03:27:29 <copumpkin> I guess I should be glad I left academia then
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348 2011-10-31 03:31:00 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: yes, but you stripped out the context
349 2011-10-31 03:31:11 <Diablo-D3> academics simply dont have 10 years of experience in their chosen language
350 2011-10-31 03:31:36 <Diablo-D3> they're too busy trying to satisfy phd requirements in college so they can pick up chicks with their phd
351 2011-10-31 03:31:55 <cocktopus> piled higher and deeper
352 2011-10-31 03:32:11 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: oh, I must've missed that
353 2011-10-31 03:32:38 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: when I was working on my phd, I'd been programming since I was 10, as had a couple of my colleagues
354 2011-10-31 03:32:47 <copumpkin> we also advocated release of code with papers, and blasphemy like that
355 2011-10-31 03:33:00 <copumpkin> this is why I failed, I guess
356 2011-10-31 03:33:15 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: yeah no shit, Im surprise they didnt throw you out
357 2011-10-31 03:33:22 <Diablo-D3> thats blasphemy to academics
358 2011-10-31 03:33:33 <copumpkin> :)
359 2011-10-31 03:34:05 <Diablo-D3> honestly, if you've been coding that long, traditional college can offer you nothing of value
360 2011-10-31 03:34:09 <Diablo-D3> not at that cost, anyways
361 2011-10-31 03:34:16 <gmaxwell> But seriouslyâ that kind of super enormous ego about "good coders don't write bugs" is a bunch of bullshit, and its why so much of the software is as buggy as it is.
362 2011-10-31 03:34:34 <gmaxwell> People don't take precautions to find and deal with bugs because they know they are good coders.
363 2011-10-31 03:34:38 <Diablo-D3> my code isnt buggy :<
364 2011-10-31 03:34:41 <gmaxwell> Bullshit.
365 2011-10-31 03:34:47 Schematografter has joined
366 2011-10-31 03:34:50 <Diablo-D3> fine, its not AS buggy
367 2011-10-31 03:35:17 <gmaxwell> As what? bitcoin? bitcoin has had fairly few bugs.
368 2011-10-31 03:35:45 <Diablo-D3> its written in c++ and uses boost
369 2011-10-31 03:35:54 <Diablo-D3> thats not only two bugs, they're major design flaws
370 2011-10-31 03:36:03 <[Tycho]> Java is much worse.
371 2011-10-31 03:36:12 <[Tycho]> C is the best language ever.
372 2011-10-31 03:36:25 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: For writing reliable software? Nah. Java sucks in lots of ways but it promotes reliablity.
373 2011-10-31 03:37:10 <gmaxwell> as far as C++ and boostâ well, bitcoin is a fraction of the size it would be if written in straight C (esp if using GTK). Thats fewer chances for things to to wrong.
374 2011-10-31 03:37:27 Moonies has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
375 2011-10-31 03:37:29 <luke-jr> [23:19:26] <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: when I was working on my phd, I'd been programming since I was 10, as had a couple of my colleagues
376 2011-10-31 03:37:30 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: I learned lots of stuff unrelated to coding, and enjoyed the more theoretical CS I learned. In fact, I got sucked into CS theory and math a lot deeper after grad school
377 2011-10-31 03:37:31 <gmaxwell> It's use of C++ is also fairly limited, it doesn't do anything super offensive like overloading shit in surprising ways.
378 2011-10-31 03:37:36 <luke-jr> copumpkin: why waste your money?
379 2011-10-31 03:37:42 <copumpkin> luke-jr: they pay me to do a phd
380 2011-10-31 03:37:51 <luke-jr> oh
381 2011-10-31 03:37:55 <luke-jr> silly people
382 2011-10-31 03:37:58 <copumpkin> well
383 2011-10-31 03:37:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thats the norm, btw.
384 2011-10-31 03:38:01 <copumpkin> it's basically a research job
385 2011-10-31 03:38:04 <copumpkin> a badly paid one
386 2011-10-31 03:38:08 <copumpkin> which is why I eventually quit
387 2011-10-31 03:38:09 <gmaxwell> (well, its a norm in the sciences)
388 2011-10-31 03:38:12 <luke-jr> lol
389 2011-10-31 03:38:41 * copumpkin only writes correct software
390 2011-10-31 03:38:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what is?
391 2011-10-31 03:38:46 <copumpkin> </ninjacoder>
392 2011-10-31 03:38:54 <copumpkin> luke-jr: stipends for phd students
393 2011-10-31 03:38:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: In the sciences you get paid for getting your PHD.
394 2011-10-31 03:39:06 <gmaxwell> ...You get paid not especially well to get your phd while doing bitch work for some professor.
395 2011-10-31 03:39:15 <luke-jr> XD
396 2011-10-31 03:39:29 <copumpkin> my advisor used to joke that getting a phd was an exercise in turning down highly-paid jobs in favor of a shit salary for four or five years
397 2011-10-31 03:39:43 <Diablo-D3> [11:24:17] <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: I learned lots of stuff unrelated to coding, and enjoyed the more theoretical CS I learned. In fact, I got sucked into CS theory and math a lot deeper after grad school
398 2011-10-31 03:39:53 <Diablo-D3> thats a different thing
399 2011-10-31 03:40:00 <copumpkin> yep
400 2011-10-31 03:40:07 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: thats almost akin to the whole "dont drop out, drop in" theory of steve job's
401 2011-10-31 03:40:11 <Diablo-D3> which I _do_ believe in
402 2011-10-31 03:40:16 <copumpkin> what was that?
403 2011-10-31 03:40:30 <Diablo-D3> he quit working on his degree, but started dropping in on actually interesting classes
404 2011-10-31 03:40:44 <Diablo-D3> ended up being one of the most important things he ever did
405 2011-10-31 03:40:49 <copumpkin> ah okay :)
406 2011-10-31 03:41:13 <copumpkin> yeah, I was kind of blown away by some of the courses I took as an undergrad, in topics I'd never have thought to look otherwise
407 2011-10-31 03:41:30 <Diablo-D3> too many college programs are assembly line shit
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409 2011-10-31 03:41:43 <Diablo-D3> raw student material goes in, piece of useless paper comes out
410 2011-10-31 03:41:48 TheSeven has joined
411 2011-10-31 03:41:49 <copumpkin> hah
412 2011-10-31 03:42:09 <gmaxwell> OMG diplomas are made of PEOPLE
413 2011-10-31 03:42:23 <Diablo-D3> hah
414 2011-10-31 03:42:28 <cocktopus> meatploma
415 2011-10-31 03:42:28 <Diablo-D3> seriously though, its insane
416 2011-10-31 03:42:35 <Diablo-D3> people pay all this goddamned money for what
417 2011-10-31 03:42:47 <luke-jr> lol @ Alexander the Great
418 2011-10-31 03:42:51 <copumpkin> certificates that they can put up with structured bullshit :)
419 2011-10-31 03:42:53 <Diablo-D3> if you arent learning anything that truly means something to you, why the fuck are you there
420 2011-10-31 03:43:07 <cocktopus> a chance to learn how to effectively use hookers and blow!
421 2011-10-31 03:43:17 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdAFK
422 2011-10-31 03:43:49 <copumpkin> also, in some sense they can be certificates that they're in the top percentiles of the population ranked by certain (possibly irrelevant for jobs, but not all employers think so) criteria
423 2011-10-31 03:44:07 Encyclopedia has quit (Quit: Leaving)
424 2011-10-31 03:44:11 <copumpkin> depending on whether you went to a "good" school or not
425 2011-10-31 03:44:26 <luke-jr> no school is good
426 2011-10-31 03:44:29 <Diablo-D3> thats another thing
427 2011-10-31 03:44:39 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck are jobs that do NOT need deplomas requiring them now?
428 2011-10-31 03:45:10 <Diablo-D3> the government should be looking into why less people go to trade schools now adays
429 2011-10-31 03:45:25 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: people want good/smart employees, and it's hard to gauge how good/smart someone is from a couple of interviews, so people try to quantify it with a piece of paper
430 2011-10-31 03:45:26 <Diablo-D3> we need more people who _do_ shit
431 2011-10-31 03:45:32 <copumpkin> it fails at it, but might be moderately correlated
432 2011-10-31 03:45:36 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: its very easy in this industry
433 2011-10-31 03:45:43 <copumpkin> yeah, but in most it's harder
434 2011-10-31 03:45:53 <Diablo-D3> have github account? no? NEXT!
435 2011-10-31 03:45:58 <copumpkin> artists and CS people have portfolios
436 2011-10-31 03:46:03 <cocktopus> trades are important, but kids these days are too lazy and afraid of monsters and shit
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442 2011-10-31 04:01:07 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
443 2011-10-31 04:06:45 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: GitHub sucks
444 2011-10-31 04:07:49 TheZimm has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
445 2011-10-31 04:07:54 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
446 2011-10-31 04:08:04 <cocktopus> luke-jr; but everyone is doing it! :P
447 2011-10-31 04:08:23 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
448 2011-10-31 04:08:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 151201 | Current Difficulty: 1203461.92638 | Next Difficulty At Block: 153215 | Next Difficulty In: 2014 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 34 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 1731602.48482576 | Estimated Percent Change: 43.8851073614
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459 2011-10-31 04:25:33 <batouzo> JFK911: re our bubble talk, there are some rumors of upcoming next one (in usa) - studen loans
460 2011-10-31 04:28:42 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
461 2011-10-31 04:28:48 <batouzo> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/10/30/235248/student-loans-in-america-the-next-big-credit-bubble
462 2011-10-31 04:29:27 zhoutong has joined
463 2011-10-31 04:30:25 <RAM2012> I hope there is some reform in that area. tuition is too high because the govt lends money too easily
464 2011-10-31 04:31:53 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
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467 2011-10-31 04:38:26 <phungus> I personally know of people who are refusing to pay their student loans back but yet are continuing to go to school because they can and they think the government owes it to them
468 2011-10-31 04:38:46 <phungus> that bubble is going to explode
469 2011-10-31 04:38:57 <phungus> err,
470 2011-10-31 04:38:58 <phungus> implode
471 2011-10-31 04:38:59 <phungus> maybe
472 2011-10-31 04:40:48 <batouzo> "suddenly German debt decreased by 55,000,000,000 EUR because the debt was by mistake calculated as too high" <--- seriously?
473 2011-10-31 04:41:23 <nanotube> luke-jr: well, tbh if someone says "no but i do have gitorious acct" that will be acceptable :)
474 2011-10-31 04:41:47 <nanotube> or even no, but i do know how to use git and host my own repos ...
475 2011-10-31 04:42:31 <copumpkin> NO
476 2011-10-31 04:42:33 <copumpkin> IT MUST BE SOCIAL
477 2011-10-31 04:42:39 <nanotube> haha
478 2011-10-31 04:42:47 <copumpkin> hosting your own repos is the opposite of team player
479 2011-10-31 04:42:52 <copumpkin> and we only hire team players
480 2011-10-31 04:42:52 <nanotube> lol
481 2011-10-31 04:43:13 <copumpkin> also, rockstar ninja awesome team players
482 2011-10-31 04:44:45 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
483 2011-10-31 04:44:50 <nanotube> joke rocket losing propulsion, estimated crash into ocean in t+15 :P
484 2011-10-31 04:45:08 <copumpkin> :)
485 2011-10-31 04:45:35 <copumpkin> here, enjoy this instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtJ77qsLrpw
486 2011-10-31 04:45:52 zhoutong has joined
487 2011-10-31 04:47:17 * nanotube 's mental web filter does s/http*youtube*/nothing to see here move along/ :)
488 2011-10-31 04:47:34 <copumpkin> it's good in a nerdy sense
489 2011-10-31 04:47:36 <copumpkin> it's the game of life
490 2011-10-31 04:48:44 <gmaxwell> git /window 19
491 2011-10-31 04:48:46 <gmaxwell> oops
492 2011-10-31 04:48:57 <Diablo-D3> er, what?
493 2011-10-31 04:49:42 <Diablo-D3> [12:27:34] <batouzo> "suddenly German debt decreased by 55,000,000,000 EUR
494 2011-10-31 04:49:42 <nanotube> copumpkin: oh heh nice
495 2011-10-31 04:49:48 <Diablo-D3> 55 billion?
496 2011-10-31 04:50:05 <batouzo> Diablo-D3: that is what the article said
497 2011-10-31 04:50:08 <Diablo-D3> yeah but
498 2011-10-31 04:50:10 <Diablo-D3> that snothing
499 2011-10-31 04:50:14 <Diablo-D3> thats within the margin of error
500 2011-10-31 04:50:22 <Diablo-D3> the German debt is measured in trillions
501 2011-10-31 04:50:26 <batouzo> http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wire-news/germany-finds-55-bln-euros-after-accountancy-error_607515.html
502 2011-10-31 04:52:05 <batouzo> Diablo-D3: then it is not directly a big change for economy, except, someone is really bad at managing/governing there
503 2011-10-31 04:52:06 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
504 2011-10-31 04:52:17 <nanotube> yea it's like you finding out that something costs not 3000 usd, but only 2945. that's pretty nice, but nothing to write home about
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507 2011-10-31 04:53:02 <batouzo> you think such mistakes are common? or it shows problems in administration
508 2011-10-31 04:53:28 <nanotube> no idea. but running any large bureaucracy just has to be full of mistakes, i'd bet
509 2011-10-31 04:53:33 <nanotube> not that i have experience in running one
510 2011-10-31 04:53:42 <batouzo> oh well bitcoin also has such mistakes like 2000+ ฿ burned in OP 0 transactions yesterday
511 2011-10-31 04:53:57 <nanotube> hehe yes
512 2011-10-31 04:54:13 <nanotube> "suddenly mtgox balance decreased by 2000 btc"
513 2011-10-31 04:54:13 <batouzo> but at least nothing can change total amount of coins
514 2011-10-31 04:54:47 <gmaxwell> As I said when it happendâ that wasn't even a particularly expensive mistake. Crap happens.
515 2011-10-31 04:54:55 <copumpkin> I'll take the 2000 lost btc, thanks
516 2011-10-31 04:55:06 <nanotube> yes, everyone's bitcoins just became 2e3/7e6 more valuable.
517 2011-10-31 04:55:20 <nanotube> copumpkin: be sure to share with your good friend nanotube !
518 2011-10-31 04:55:25 <copumpkin> certainly!
519 2011-10-31 04:55:30 <copumpkin> if they magically appear in my wallet
520 2011-10-31 04:55:31 <nanotube> hehe
521 2011-10-31 04:56:15 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
522 2011-10-31 04:56:21 <nanotube> gmaxwell: indeed. exactly my point about german 55bln as well. :)
523 2011-10-31 04:56:30 ej has joined
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527 2011-10-31 04:59:37 <MagicalTux> is there any mining software using midstate ?
528 2011-10-31 04:59:54 <graingert> !later tell BlueMatt ppa works wonderfully
529 2011-10-31 04:59:55 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
530 2011-10-31 05:01:30 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: requiring, yes. using, no.
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533 2011-10-31 05:04:47 <shadders> jgarzik: just the dude who might be able to unmuddle me... 12 hrs of debugging later I've just noticed that bitcoinj reverses tx hash when building merkle root. But from what I can see of the bitcoind code this doesn't happen.
534 2011-10-31 05:05:07 <shadders> building merkle tree*
535 2011-10-31 05:06:04 <shadders> any idea what's going on? does bitcoind maybe store the tx bytes internally in LE?
536 2011-10-31 05:07:21 <MagicalTux> jgarzik: they require it but don't use it? why don't we drop it altogether then?
537 2011-10-31 05:07:41 <MagicalTux> (in fact I'm working on an implementation of getwork right now, and the documentation about that one is kind of lacking)
538 2011-10-31 05:09:21 <shadders> MagicalTux: you can calculate it yrself but a lot of crypto libs don't give you access to internal state. For poolserverj I had to hack bouncycastle lib to be able to extract the midstate
539 2011-10-31 05:09:48 <nanotube> there's been some talk of just getting rid of the midstate, iirc.
540 2011-10-31 05:11:40 <shadders> maybe that's why it was included originally... I don't think it really hurts... if your going to modify getwork you might as well do it properly and implement a differential system where first work contains all the extra info like midstate, target, full header etc... and subsequent ones only include merkleroot+time which is all that changes. And a full one whenever any of the static data items changes
541 2011-10-31 05:13:05 <MagicalTux> heh
542 2011-10-31 05:13:21 <MagicalTux> so as of today, no (or almost none) mining software rely on midstate ?
543 2011-10-31 05:14:30 <[Tycho]> Only ~80 bytes should be enough for getwork :)
544 2011-10-31 05:14:49 <shadders> MagicalTux: I think cgminer is the only one
545 2011-10-31 05:15:45 <shadders> [Tycho]: I'm trying to put together a spec for binary differential getwork protocol (~40 byte if binary)
546 2011-10-31 05:16:03 <shadders> but not getting much interest from miner devs
547 2011-10-31 05:16:15 <Ukto> MagicalTux: gonna start your own pool?
548 2011-10-31 05:16:34 <shadders> Diablo-D3 is a lazy prick and permanently cranky
549 2011-10-31 05:16:36 <[Tycho]> shadders, I have an idea about light-RPC with selectable fields to request.
550 2011-10-31 05:17:03 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
551 2011-10-31 05:17:41 <MagicalTux> Ukto: may
552 2011-10-31 05:18:13 <Diablo-D3> Im a lazy prick whos always doing work.
553 2011-10-31 05:18:20 <Diablo-D3> hows that working for you, shadders?
554 2011-10-31 05:18:58 <shadders> works ok... still curious why you've been in bad mood since 1986 though :p
555 2011-10-31 05:19:17 <Diablo-D3> s/1986/1983/
556 2011-10-31 05:21:17 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
557 2011-10-31 05:21:33 <RAM2012> tux if you start a pool it should be for merged mining
558 2011-10-31 05:22:12 zhoutong has joined
559 2011-10-31 05:22:47 <shadders> anyone know where I can get a raw block (bytes or hex) easily? I'm going to have to test this backwards tx thing myself I guess
560 2011-10-31 05:23:27 <RAM2012> There should be an exchange supported by a network of bitcoin / namecoin ATMS
561 2011-10-31 05:24:41 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: cpuminer and cgminer will fail if any of the four fields are not present
562 2011-10-31 05:24:50 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: even though not all fields are actually used
563 2011-10-31 05:25:11 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: it's a question that's been asked before... :)
564 2011-10-31 05:25:18 <MagicalTux> jgarzik: what about providing a null midstate ?
565 2011-10-31 05:25:57 <Diablo-D3> heh
566 2011-10-31 05:26:04 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: which fields?
567 2011-10-31 05:26:06 <Diablo-D3> in what?
568 2011-10-31 05:26:28 <Diablo-D3> because DiabloMiner needs the entire 80 byte header to verify solution
569 2011-10-31 05:26:45 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: I take that back. midstate is used directly by 4way and sse2_64 algorithms
570 2011-10-31 05:26:51 <MagicalTux> ok
571 2011-10-31 05:26:54 <MagicalTux> then I'll compute it
572 2011-10-31 05:27:02 <Graet> latest cgminer doesnt need midstate according to changelog
573 2011-10-31 05:29:17 <Nesetalis> anyone know where a list of bitcoin nodes is?
574 2011-10-31 05:30:35 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
575 2011-10-31 05:31:15 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: diablominer uses midstate
576 2011-10-31 05:31:20 <MagicalTux> Nesetalis: got one
577 2011-10-31 05:31:27 zhoutong has joined
578 2011-10-31 05:31:34 <Diablo-D3> although I do have sha256 round shit in the java, so someone could easily submit a patch to remove that
579 2011-10-31 05:31:53 <MagicalTux> Diablo-D3: do you know if there's some documentation somewhere about getwork ?
580 2011-10-31 05:32:07 <Diablo-D3> nope
581 2011-10-31 05:32:16 <Diablo-D3> not that Im aware of anyways
582 2011-10-31 05:32:21 <Diablo-D3> I just do what the json says
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587 2011-10-31 05:39:06 <Nesetalis> -sighs- IPv6 needs to move forward and NAT needs to go the way of the dinosaur
588 2011-10-31 05:42:11 <batouzo> would jgarzik's pool (python) work with litecoin?
589 2011-10-31 05:42:39 <gmaxwell> Why the heck would you pool litecoin?
590 2011-10-31 05:43:04 <shadders> batouzo: poolserverj has scrypt support now so it should work with litecoin
591 2011-10-31 05:43:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah but who the fuck has a scrypt miner
592 2011-10-31 05:43:16 <gmaxwell> grep -i genera ~/.litecoin/debug.log | wc -l
593 2011-10-31 05:43:16 <gmaxwell> 17
594 2011-10-31 05:43:17 <shadders> don't think anyone's tried it though
595 2011-10-31 05:43:18 <batouzo> gmaxwell: why not?
596 2011-10-31 05:43:26 <gmaxwell> ^ thats in a bit under 48 hours.
597 2011-10-31 05:43:44 <batouzo> is there cpu miner for litecoin?
598 2011-10-31 05:44:04 <gmaxwell> No. Goat based mining only...
599 2011-10-31 05:44:06 <cjdelisle> hehe litecoin pool
600 2011-10-31 05:44:09 <gmaxwell> What do you think? :)
601 2011-10-31 05:44:53 <cjdelisle> I have 300,000 cpus available to me, what should I do with them... hmmm. Litecoin Pool!
602 2011-10-31 05:44:54 <batouzo> do we have standalone cpu miner for it or just the code in litecoind itself
603 2011-10-31 05:45:31 <batouzo> cjdelisle: yes something like that
604 2011-10-31 05:45:31 <gmaxwell> cjdelisle: if you have 300k cpus, ... care to help me do some fun things to litecoin? ;)
605 2011-10-31 05:45:50 <batouzo> to a lesser scale :)
606 2011-10-31 05:46:21 * cjdelisle 's conscience dictates against doing things like that
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608 2011-10-31 05:47:13 <gmaxwell> aww.
609 2011-10-31 05:47:22 <batouzo> all this poor CPUs that must suffer so we can test our new perfumes
610 2011-10-31 05:48:08 <cjdelisle> oh messing with litecoin.. meh, it's the botnet part that I'm not in to
611 2011-10-31 05:48:25 <batouzo> if only we could in future move this to something without hurting them, like use animals instead?
612 2011-10-31 05:48:49 <batouzo> cjdelisle: who said botnet?
613 2011-10-31 05:48:53 ej has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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616 2011-10-31 05:49:43 <cjdelisle> I'll entertain the idea that you can get 300k cpus other ways for a few minutes
617 2011-10-31 05:49:54 <gmaxwell> litecoin seems like a fantastic platform for exploring bloat attacks.
618 2011-10-31 05:50:22 <batouzo> cjdelisle: I did said 300 k ?
619 2011-10-31 05:50:29 <gmaxwell> 4x the peak chain growth rate of bitcoin but a fraction of the cost to mine blocks.
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622 2011-10-31 05:52:14 <batouzo> cjdelisle: I don't have a botnet lol, and you come up with some huge number of CPUs. I will have access to less then that. Anyway what this has to do with pool software
623 2011-10-31 05:52:50 <gmaxwell> batouzo: there isn't much reason to do pooling on litecoin.. just a couple computers will get you several blocks per day solo mining it.
624 2011-10-31 05:53:26 <batouzo> gmaxwell: so what hashing power are you getting on it?
625 2011-10-31 05:54:16 <batouzo> "hashespersec" : 1255, "networkhashps" : 5435515 ... do I read it correct that this is 0.0002 part of network power
626 2011-10-31 05:54:20 <cjdelisle> hehe
627 2011-10-31 05:54:27 <gmaxwell> wow, thats slow.
628 2011-10-31 05:54:28 <cjdelisle> 95.20.54.178.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer unallocated.sta.synapse.net.ua. <-- discovered bittorrent node
629 2011-10-31 05:54:54 <batouzo> gmaxwell: that is default compilation from git source running on around i5 quadcore or something
630 2011-10-31 05:55:30 <batouzo> what power do you get?
631 2011-10-31 05:55:38 <cjdelisle> What will be interesting is litecoin on an APU
632 2011-10-31 05:56:44 <gmaxwell> batouzo: thats busted. I think I'm getting about 2k/core.
633 2011-10-31 05:58:09 <gmaxwell> And I only bothered starting it on two 32 way systems and I've got about a percent or two of the network.
634 2011-10-31 05:58:15 num1 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
635 2011-10-31 05:58:32 <gmaxwell> (hard to measure, it's only running when they're otherwise idleâ and I normally keep them cranking)
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643 2011-10-31 06:14:04 <phantomcircuit> <Element {http://schemas.datacontract.org/2004/07/Dwolla.Lib.Services.DataContracts}Amount at 0x17aa500>
644 2011-10-31 06:14:11 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
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651 2011-10-31 06:32:06 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: does oggpack have a maximum buffer limit for a write context?
652 2011-10-31 06:32:26 zhoutong has joined
653 2011-10-31 06:33:08 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: do you mean "is there a maximum packet size" or "is there a maximum time between calls to page out"?
654 2011-10-31 06:33:39 <Diablo-D3> no, I mean, Im using oggpack, and my app is segfaulting during a call to realloc inside of oggpack_write
655 2011-10-31 06:35:27 <gmaxwell> Oh you're actually using oggpack? don't do that... but I don't recall any limit other than only being able to write 32bits at a time.
656 2011-10-31 06:35:44 <Diablo-D3> well, I just wanna molest individual bits
657 2011-10-31 06:36:01 <Diablo-D3> and I dont want to write my own bit stream handler
658 2011-10-31 06:36:16 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what endbyte in oggpack_buffer is
659 2011-10-31 06:36:24 <Diablo-D3> or storage
660 2011-10-31 06:36:43 <Diablo-D3> because its 1532 and 1536 respectively and if thats in bytes, wtf
661 2011-10-31 06:36:52 <gmaxwell> The only thing that uses the oggpack stuff is vorbis, and we generally regard putting that bitpacker in libogg as a mistake.
662 2011-10-31 06:37:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: =/
663 2011-10-31 06:37:07 <Diablo-D3> but I dont want to write my own
664 2011-10-31 06:38:20 <gmaxwell> (and it's also not particularly good, or well documentedâ and I've long swapped out how it works. If you go into #vorbis and ask Monty will probably help you when he stops by to visit earth)
665 2011-10-31 06:38:53 <Diablo-D3> it looks well documented to me =/
666 2011-10-31 06:39:26 <Diablo-D3> https://www.xiph.org/ogg/doc/libogg/bitpacking.html
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730 2011-10-31 08:16:22 <shurdeek> anyone knows what happened in block 124725? It looks like 0.01000001 Bitcoins where lost.
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734 2011-10-31 08:24:05 <[Tycho]> shurdeek, which TX ?
735 2011-10-31 08:24:06 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
736 2011-10-31 08:24:31 <shurdeek> lemme check
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742 2011-10-31 08:31:50 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rdeee35e / lib/scriptinterpreter.js : Removed debug statements. - http://git.io/dNxz6g
743 2011-10-31 08:31:50 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r7c77fe6 / lib/scriptinterpreter.js : Script result must be calculated from last stack element, not first. - http://git.io/oVNWMw
744 2011-10-31 08:31:51 <CIA-101> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rac546ab / test/script.js : Added test case containing OP_NOP1. - http://git.io/U85FPw
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754 2011-10-31 08:41:48 <shurdeek> [Tycho], actually it's 124724, tx 5d80a29be1609db91658b401f85921a86ab4755969729b65257651bb9fd2c10d
755 2011-10-31 08:41:55 zhoutong has joined
756 2011-10-31 08:45:55 <phantomcircuit> shurdeek, they paid a fee of 0.00000001
757 2011-10-31 08:46:00 Snapman is now known as Snapman[afkers]
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759 2011-10-31 08:46:56 <shurdeek> phantomcircuit, who paid the fee? when I look at it in abe explorer, it says generation 50, fee 0.01, and result is 49.99999999
760 2011-10-31 08:47:42 <phantomcircuit> someone moved 50 generated bitcoins and paid a fee of 0.00000001 to do so
761 2011-10-31 08:47:48 <shurdeek> sorry, it says Generation: 49.98999999 + 0.01 total fees
762 2011-10-31 08:48:02 dr_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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764 2011-10-31 08:50:06 <shurdeek> it makes no sense to pay the fee on generation, since the one who generates it reaps the fee anyway.
765 2011-10-31 08:50:59 <shurdeek> could that bee a coding error or something like that?
766 2011-10-31 08:51:22 <cjdelisle> I'm pretty sure that was a mistake or someone being silly, I remember some discussion about it before
767 2011-10-31 08:52:06 <shurdeek> ok. There are some other examples like that, tiny amounts going missing.
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775 2011-10-31 08:58:53 <shurdeek> tx phantomcircuit, [Tycho], cjdelisle
776 2011-10-31 08:59:27 zeiris has joined
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778 2011-10-31 09:01:17 <[Tycho]> Hmm, nice TX :)
779 2011-10-31 09:03:31 <[Tycho]> I wonder why it says 0.00000001 total fees when it should be 0.01000001
780 2011-10-31 09:03:44 <[Tycho]> Or 0.01
781 2011-10-31 09:05:15 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
782 2011-10-31 09:05:34 <[Tycho]> Who gets the fee from http://blockexplorer.com/tx/dc72b9fe114788ec367ddbce2a47884afd147e2d02e1cb91b9c518f348103673 then ?
783 2011-10-31 09:05:59 <kinlo> I guess it's lost?
784 2011-10-31 09:06:04 <kinlo> if nobody has it...
785 2011-10-31 09:06:14 zhoutong has joined
786 2011-10-31 09:06:18 <[Tycho]> Seems so, but strange anyway.
787 2011-10-31 09:06:48 <[Tycho]> May be it's someone's custom client. Who mined that block &
788 2011-10-31 09:06:49 <[Tycho]> ?
789 2011-10-31 09:08:36 <[Tycho]> So that's a new way to "nullroute" coins :)
790 2011-10-31 09:09:06 <DrHaribo> no generate tx - someone threw away 50 BTC?
791 2011-10-31 09:09:20 <[Tycho]> Looks like it.
792 2011-10-31 09:09:56 <edcba> isn't that mandatory ?
793 2011-10-31 09:10:07 <[Tycho]> 50 BTC ? No.
794 2011-10-31 09:10:16 <kinlo> there is a generate tx, just not for the full 50 BTC+fee's
795 2011-10-31 09:10:47 <[Tycho]> I mean generate tx without outputs.
796 2011-10-31 09:11:12 <kinlo> which block does that?
797 2011-10-31 09:11:22 <[Tycho]> http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5
798 2011-10-31 09:11:36 <[Tycho]> There is one output, but less than 50
799 2011-10-31 09:12:02 <[Tycho]> May be he tried to test it - that's why only 0.00000001 is missing.
800 2011-10-31 09:12:06 <DrHaribo> looks like rounding error in someone's software ;)
801 2011-10-31 09:12:24 <[Tycho]> No, more like controlled experiment.
802 2011-10-31 09:12:33 <edcba> i doubt that
803 2011-10-31 09:12:33 <DrHaribo> hmm or not.. there's only 1 output. Yes probably an experiment.
804 2011-10-31 09:12:48 <kinlo> yeah, but still one output
805 2011-10-31 09:12:49 <[Tycho]> Otherwise it should be 50.00999999
806 2011-10-31 09:12:51 <edcba> you need not to experiment on real network
807 2011-10-31 09:13:08 <kinlo> there is a test network for such things
808 2011-10-31 09:13:22 <kinlo> I think it's just a bug
809 2011-10-31 09:13:44 <edcba> and why would you test that anyway ?
810 2011-10-31 09:13:44 <kinlo> there are people experimenting with other software generating blocks instead of the regular bitcoin client
811 2011-10-31 09:14:08 <[Tycho]> Well, at least there is a bug in BBE
812 2011-10-31 09:15:08 <DrHaribo> What's BBE?
813 2011-10-31 09:15:18 <[Tycho]> blockexplorer.com
814 2011-10-31 09:16:14 dr_win has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
815 2011-10-31 09:16:20 <DrHaribo> maybe the bitcoin program should not accept blocks where inputs and outputs don't add up
816 2011-10-31 09:16:31 <[Tycho]> It says "Generation: 50 + 0.00000001 total fees" instead of "Generation: 49.98999999 + 0.01 total fees"
817 2011-10-31 09:16:35 <DrHaribo> or is throwing away coins a feature?
818 2011-10-31 09:16:37 <[Tycho]> DrHaribo, why ?
819 2011-10-31 09:16:48 <[Tycho]> I think that this should be accepted.
820 2011-10-31 09:17:38 <shurdeek> i use abe explorer instead of bbe, and it lists it correctly
821 2011-10-31 09:17:45 <DrHaribo> I don't see the purpose with having coins disappear this way.
822 2011-10-31 09:17:49 <[Tycho]> Do you have a link ?
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824 2011-10-31 09:18:06 <edcba> hmm maybe a new format for tx would be handy
825 2011-10-31 09:18:16 <[Tycho]> DrHaribo, that's not a reason for wasting the entire block.
826 2011-10-31 09:18:25 <edcba> ie specify inputs as full number, specify outputs as fraction
827 2011-10-31 09:18:39 <edcba> would allow to gain space
828 2011-10-31 09:19:00 <[Tycho]> shurdeek, do you have a link ?
829 2011-10-31 09:19:07 dr_win has joined
830 2011-10-31 09:19:16 <shurdeek> just a sec
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833 2011-10-31 09:20:43 <shurdeek> http://abe.john-edwin-tobey.org/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5
834 2011-10-31 09:21:17 <[Tycho]> Heh, correct numbers :)
835 2011-10-31 09:21:28 <[Tycho]> But site design is worse.
836 2011-10-31 09:22:12 <DrHaribo> Funny how blockexplorer shows the correct fee in the fee column for the block.
837 2011-10-31 09:22:38 <shurdeek> well you can pull the code for bitcoin-abe and run it yourself, and it also calculates bitcoin days destroyed.
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840 2011-10-31 09:26:18 <edcba> only font is worse imo
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842 2011-10-31 09:27:35 <edcba> i think transactions should not be shown as addresses but as "Address 1", "Address 2" and have address as tooltips
843 2011-10-31 09:27:40 <edcba> should be easier to read then
844 2011-10-31 09:28:00 <edcba> you could easily see which one is reused etc
845 2011-10-31 09:28:29 <edcba> hashes as such are quite meaningless
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855 2011-10-31 09:34:16 <DrHaribo> Is it ok to use a hash of pubkey for generate outputs, like other transaction outputs, instead of the actual pubkey like generate outputs normally use?
856 2011-10-31 09:34:44 <Diablo-D3> no.
857 2011-10-31 09:35:28 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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859 2011-10-31 09:36:56 <DrHaribo> Why not? :)
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871 2011-10-31 09:48:53 <edcba> // First transaction must be coinbase, the rest must not be
872 2011-10-31 09:48:54 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
873 2011-10-31 09:48:59 <edcba> i knew it was mandatory...
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879 2011-10-31 09:57:10 <gmaxwell> 01:58 < [Tycho]> May be he tried to test it - that's why only 0.00000001 is missing.
880 2011-10-31 09:57:10 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
881 2011-10-31 09:57:19 <gmaxwell> That was midnightmagic being cute.
882 2011-10-31 09:57:47 <gmaxwell> He was trying to make 1 satoshi not come into existance to symbolize the absense of satoshi from the project.
883 2011-10-31 09:57:54 <gmaxwell> But he screwed up and lost the fee too.
884 2011-10-31 09:57:57 zhoutong has joined
885 2011-10-31 09:58:06 <gmaxwell> Thats not the only coinbase lost forever.
886 2011-10-31 09:58:19 <Diablo-D3> yes that
887 2011-10-31 09:58:32 <gmaxwell> edcba: and you can happily take zero of the coinbase output ... or mine duplicated coinbases.
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890 2011-10-31 10:01:09 <edcba> yes but i mean the transaction is still mandatory
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900 2011-10-31 10:18:48 <GMP> i got an idea, i wonder if its impossible for some reason before i investigate it.
901 2011-10-31 10:18:55 <GMP> Lets say i have alternate blockchain DATACOIN, where coins represent bytes/bandwidth/upload/download like torrent trackers.. or some other strange blockchain (not money)
902 2011-10-31 10:19:06 <GMP> The idea: to make DTC<>BTC exchange P2P i use special type of bitcoin addresses:
903 2011-10-31 10:19:17 <GMP> Pubkey of normal address is 65 bytes is encoded (0x04,X,Y) - both coordinates of point on elliptic curve
904 2011-10-31 10:19:35 <GMP> special address will be 65 bytes too but (0x00-0x02,X,hash(transaction in DTC chain)) where 0-2 tells which root of cubic equation used to get Y from X (thats openssl feature)
905 2011-10-31 10:19:55 <GMP> exchange will be essentially one atomic operation (one party receives BTC, other receives DTC)
906 2011-10-31 10:20:09 <GMP> DTC transaction considered valid only when corresponding BTC transaction made it to blockchain
907 2011-10-31 10:20:27 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
908 2011-10-31 10:21:43 <gmaxwell> There is no need to introduce point compression in bitcoin. The transaction format is not so constrained, and even if it were what you're proposing would change it anyways.
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910 2011-10-31 10:22:06 <gmaxwell> Also, transactions aren't normally directed to public keys.
911 2011-10-31 10:22:40 zhoutong has joined
912 2011-10-31 10:23:09 <edcba> ok it's still the piggybacking on bitcoin chain problem anyway
913 2011-10-31 10:23:20 <edcba> i think we have already some litterature about it :)
914 2011-10-31 10:24:17 <edcba> i'd like have some timestamping service separated from bitcoin but i don't think there is some nice way to do it
915 2011-10-31 10:24:36 <gmaxwell> GMP: what you can also do is secure the transactions with additional secret keys, e.g. I make a BTC transaction to you secured with H(A) and H(B) (and a pubkey), I know A and you know B and gave me H(B) â and you do the opposite on your other chain.
916 2011-10-31 10:24:51 <gmaxwell> Then the txn are both stuck until A,B have been made public.
917 2011-10-31 10:25:08 <gmaxwell> edcba: thats what merged mining is for.
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919 2011-10-31 10:26:56 <edcba> i don't remember what merged mining was but i doubt it convinced me :)
920 2011-10-31 10:27:09 <gmaxwell> oy.
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922 2011-10-31 10:28:19 <gmaxwell> edcba: it allows other block-POW things to share hashing effort with bitcoin mining, without adding a bunch of junk to the bitcoin blockchain.
923 2011-10-31 10:28:20 <GMP> gmaxwell: transaction will be directed to hash160 as normal, the recipient will have to use spetial pubkey late, when spending
924 2011-10-31 10:28:38 <edcba> i'd like some chain where you have many (serviceid,hash) with bitcoin having some fixed serviceid and hash its merkleroot
925 2011-10-31 10:28:38 <GMP> s/late/later/
926 2011-10-31 10:29:14 <edcba> ie a chain shared by many programs
927 2011-10-31 10:29:31 <edcba> like programs share tcp on one computer
928 2011-10-31 10:30:20 <gmaxwell> edcba: but then those things would have to share difficulty, time between blocks, etc. A lot of degrees of freedom removed, plus everyone mining root would need to work all the systems.
929 2011-10-31 10:30:36 <gmaxwell> Merged mining doesn't have those limits.
930 2011-10-31 10:30:53 <edcba> share difficulty is not a problem :)
931 2011-10-31 10:31:13 <edcba> of course time will have to be reduced eventually
932 2011-10-31 10:31:29 <gmaxwell> It sure is if the result is that everyone mining the common system must participate in all networksâ and if they don't less popular ones get starved of blocks.
933 2011-10-31 10:31:32 <edcba> and i don't understand your point about mining
934 2011-10-31 10:31:44 <gmaxwell> Reduced?? Thats crazy.
935 2011-10-31 10:31:54 <edcba> you don't have to support all networks
936 2011-10-31 10:32:20 <edcba> programs report what they want to be included to miner, miner includes all of them
937 2011-10-31 10:32:46 <edcba> now each program may or may not have some merkleroot on one block
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939 2011-10-31 10:32:53 <gmaxwell> edcba: and when they 'report' an rules violating block on chain X what happens?
940 2011-10-31 10:33:12 <edcba> the block is ignored for that program
941 2011-10-31 10:33:18 <edcba> but the chain is still good
942 2011-10-31 10:33:30 <GMP> gmaxwell: "introduce point compression", isnt it already possible? now! or is there something that prevents it?
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944 2011-10-31 10:34:10 <gmaxwell> edcba: so what happens when 99.999% of the reports for service X to the miners are garbage?
945 2011-10-31 10:35:19 <gmaxwell> edcba: in any case, don't waste my time discussing this general subject until you've bothered to go read up on merged mining. I think it does most of what you want, and I suspect it does it better than whatever you're thinking of.
946 2011-10-31 10:35:28 <edcba> then majority of cpu voted that service X is crap :)
947 2011-10-31 10:35:58 <edcba> gmaxwell: it introduces dependancy to whole bitcoin
948 2011-10-31 10:36:00 <gmaxwell> GMP: What do you mean? No. There is no ability on the bitcoin network today to do the operation you're describing.
949 2011-10-31 10:36:08 <gmaxwell> edcba: What does?
950 2011-10-31 10:36:14 <edcba> merged mining
951 2011-10-31 10:36:19 <gmaxwell> No sir, it doesn't.
952 2011-10-31 10:36:37 <gmaxwell> bitcoin can die dead as a rock and chains which are merged mining with bitcoin would keep going fine.
953 2011-10-31 10:36:49 <edcba> a bitcoin chain must validate transaction in its blocks
954 2011-10-31 10:36:53 Snapman[afkers] is now known as Snapman
955 2011-10-31 10:37:03 <edcba> that means a client sharing the chain must share validating transaction code
956 2011-10-31 10:37:08 <gmaxwell> Yep. Good thing merged mining keeps the chains completly seperate.
957 2011-10-31 10:37:16 <gmaxwell> Only if it cares to make blocks in that chain.
958 2011-10-31 10:37:44 <edcba> if you don't you don't share the cpu power used in the other chain
959 2011-10-31 10:37:50 <edcba> so it would be useless
960 2011-10-31 10:38:01 <GMP> gmaxwell: openssl automatically accepts both encodings, and i dont see anything that checks for 0x04 in sources
961 2011-10-31 10:38:09 <edcba> i think i begin to remember merged mining
962 2011-10-31 10:38:18 <gmaxwell> edcba: it sounds like you don't understand it at all.
963 2011-10-31 10:38:30 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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965 2011-10-31 10:39:45 <gmaxwell> GMP: Go try it out on testnet. If its accepted we have a bug we need to eliminate.
966 2011-10-31 10:40:33 molecular has joined
967 2011-10-31 10:41:21 <GMP> why do you think its a bug? more like harmless but very useful feature
968 2011-10-31 10:41:22 <gmaxwell> edcba: in any case, the consequence of merged mining is that you can have N merged chains. You can mine on any M of them, and you only need to do rules validation for the M you're interested in. You do one unit of work, and get a candidate hash that works on all M. Any N-M remainders your hashes wouldn't be good on.
969 2011-10-31 10:42:04 da2ce7 has joined
970 2011-10-31 10:42:13 <gmaxwell> GMP: because certicom goes around _agressively_ claiming to have patents on transmission of public keys in point compressed form. This is why redhat strips all ECC code from their openssl distribution.
971 2011-10-31 10:42:46 <gmaxwell> And it's also not an useful feature because its better to not transmit the public key at all. It can be recovered from the signature.
972 2011-10-31 10:43:01 <edcba> merged mining add some hash in bitcoin transactions ?
973 2011-10-31 10:43:34 <gmaxwell> edcba: it adds a single sha256 merkle root in the coinbase, yes.
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975 2011-10-31 10:45:34 <edcba> so you need bitcoin transactions code in your other program...
976 2011-10-31 10:45:40 <gmaxwell> No.
977 2011-10-31 10:46:07 <edcba> how do you add it then ?
978 2011-10-31 10:46:51 <Diablo-D3> by dipping a unicorn horn into the fruit juice.
979 2011-10-31 10:47:02 <gmaxwell> If you think of the normal bitcoin setup as having a header... H=[timestamp,prev,h(root),nonce].. for the merged chains, merged mining changes them to accept H0=[garbage,h(H1||garbageA),garbage],H1=[garbage;MM=H(H)] and H=normal header.
980 2011-10-31 10:47:35 <gmaxwell> The miner provides the H0,H1 values which are mostly garbage and ignored to the merged chain, though it checks the hash of H0 to measure the difficulty
981 2011-10-31 10:47:39 d4de has joined
982 2011-10-31 10:47:49 <gmaxwell> Plus it provides the concatinated garbage in the hashes.
983 2011-10-31 10:48:31 <gmaxwell> If the miner is also mining bitcoin then H0 is the bitcoin header, H1 is the coinbase txn. But they don't have to be mining bitcoin too.. if they aren't then they can just use the rest as extra nonce space or set it to zeros or whatever.
984 2011-10-31 10:48:37 * Diablo-D3 ponders.
985 2011-10-31 10:48:44 <gmaxwell> Nothing in the merged chain parses anything but the cascade of hashes.
986 2011-10-31 10:48:48 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know, audio codecs suck dick.
987 2011-10-31 10:48:54 <Diablo-D3> just throwing that out there.
988 2011-10-31 10:49:00 <edcba> ok i see the explanation i read is not good and what you call coinbase isn't coinbase either i think
989 2011-10-31 10:49:22 <edcba> so you just hash bitcoin block chain and add it to your chain
990 2011-10-31 10:49:29 <gmaxwell> No.
991 2011-10-31 10:49:33 <edcba> so you don't care about coinbase but merkle root ?
992 2011-10-31 10:50:42 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
993 2011-10-31 10:50:49 <gmaxwell> edcba: You care about the H0 and H1. From which you extract hashes which are useful to you. (and on H0 you measure difficulty by H(H0))
994 2011-10-31 10:51:14 <gmaxwell> But you don't care about them except as blobs of garbage that happen to contain useful hash values.
995 2011-10-31 10:51:27 <gmaxwell> Which you use to connect down the the actual header for your chain.
996 2011-10-31 10:51:45 zhoutong has joined
997 2011-10-31 10:53:01 <edcba> ok i think i see i won't enter in details now assuming it work for namecoin anyway
998 2011-10-31 10:53:41 <edcba> so all is good you don't need to have deep understanding of bitcoin to share the cpu power but...
999 2011-10-31 10:53:44 JFK911_ has joined
1000 2011-10-31 10:54:01 <edcba> now we want to add some 3rd program
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1003 2011-10-31 10:54:20 <edcba> how do you chain that to take advantage of namecoin users and bitcoin users ?
1004 2011-10-31 10:54:40 <gmaxwell> sure. There are already three things using merged mining, IIRC. it's simple.
1005 2011-10-31 10:55:21 <gmaxwell> the value written into the bitcoinbase is just a hash root for a tree of connected merged things.
1006 2011-10-31 10:56:07 <gmaxwell> So the miner gives the namecoin network the some opaque blobs (the bitcoin coinbase txn and header, but they don't know that or care) plus a tree fragment to connect their real header back through to the top blob.
1007 2011-10-31 10:56:36 <gmaxwell> For some other service they'd give them the same blobs, plus a different tree fragment (and of course the proper header for that service and the matching block)
1008 2011-10-31 10:57:49 <edcba> ok so to take advantage of all the services you need to form a chain of services
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1010 2011-10-31 10:58:12 <gmaxwell> There isn't a chain of services, just a hash tree.. same way transactions get connected to the root of the blocks in bitcoins.
1011 2011-10-31 10:58:58 <gmaxwell> So for N services you'll have to tell each service about log2(N) hashes they'd need to walk through to connect their service header to the POW header.
1012 2011-10-31 10:59:14 <edcba> ok bitcoin don't earn cpu power from namecoin users so ?
1013 2011-10-31 10:59:49 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin doesn't earn power from namecoin only miners.
1014 2011-10-31 10:59:57 <gmaxwell> Namecoin doesn't earm power from bitcoin only miners.
1015 2011-10-31 11:00:07 <edcba> that's the problem
1016 2011-10-31 11:00:10 <gmaxwell> But someone can mine both and do only one hash.
1017 2011-10-31 11:00:17 <edcba> my solution would solve that
1018 2011-10-31 11:00:24 <gmaxwell> No, your solution would just fail.
1019 2011-10-31 11:00:38 <edcba> lol
1020 2011-10-31 11:00:39 <gmaxwell> Because you can't 'gain power' from someone who isn't doing validation. Thats meaningless.
1021 2011-10-31 11:01:03 <edcba> i don't understand
1022 2011-10-31 11:01:09 <edcba> miners accept X services
1023 2011-10-31 11:01:17 <gmaxwell> Thats like saying that I'm sexy because sean connery is sexy. I have nothing to do with him!
1024 2011-10-31 11:01:43 <edcba> they may require 1 BTC for including your hash for some service
1025 2011-10-31 11:01:46 <edcba> or whatever
1026 2011-10-31 11:01:49 <gmaxwell> edcba: if the miner isn't validating it then the hash power is worthless. If they are, then it's good and thats what you have with merged mining.
1027 2011-10-31 11:02:01 <edcba> why it would be worthless ?
1028 2011-10-31 11:02:25 <gmaxwell> Because it isn't actually a commitment to a distributed decision.
1029 2011-10-31 11:02:28 <edcba> what is the problem with not validating ?
1030 2011-10-31 11:02:47 <edcba> you have timestamped information
1031 2011-10-31 11:03:06 <edcba> then bitcoin network may validate that information or not
1032 2011-10-31 11:03:18 <edcba> i just decouple the timestamping part
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1034 2011-10-31 11:03:31 <gmaxwell> Why have bitcoin miners validate?
1035 2011-10-31 11:03:37 <edcba> now you can put a price on that timestamping service if you want
1036 2011-10-31 11:03:47 <edcba> no miners won't validate
1037 2011-10-31 11:03:51 <edcba> just regular users
1038 2011-10-31 11:04:00 <edcba> miners just hash :)
1039 2011-10-31 11:04:05 <edcba> they hash data
1040 2011-10-31 11:04:18 <edcba> each service validate their data then
1041 2011-10-31 11:04:23 <gmaxwell> There is nothing stopping you from just putting whatever you want in the MM hash tree for commitments to things you're not validating.
1042 2011-10-31 11:04:46 <edcba> so then they will be invalidated
1043 2011-10-31 11:05:02 <edcba> free for miners to decide what service is trash
1044 2011-10-31 11:05:27 <edcba> that's how bitcoin works too
1045 2011-10-31 11:05:46 <edcba> free for miners to gen blocks without any useful transactions
1046 2011-10-31 11:06:25 <gmaxwell> Well, not necessarily, other miners could choose to refuse to extend blocks that don't contain enough common memory pool txn.
1047 2011-10-31 11:06:31 <gmaxwell> Gavin was proposing that for testnet recently.
1048 2011-10-31 11:07:09 <edcba> you could have some feedback from services to tell which data is valid or not anyway
1049 2011-10-31 11:07:27 <gmaxwell> yes, but running the service. Tada.
1050 2011-10-31 11:07:43 <edcba> but that would be indeed useless
1051 2011-10-31 11:07:55 <gmaxwell> Why is that useless?
1052 2011-10-31 11:08:20 <edcba> anyway enough common memory pool txn is not valid
1053 2011-10-31 11:08:27 <edcba> you can't tell identities on bitcoin
1054 2011-10-31 11:08:36 <edcba> so i could gen blocks only useful to me
1055 2011-10-31 11:08:54 <gmaxwell> edcba: But I know what transactions I have in my memorypool.
1056 2011-10-31 11:09:15 <gmaxwell> I may even know the identity of many of their authors due to agreements I have in place.
1057 2011-10-31 11:09:48 <gmaxwell> I could reconize anti-social blocksâ onces which inexplicably exclude too many of the available transactions and replace them with others that I wouldn't have included.
1058 2011-10-31 11:10:38 <gmaxwell> You can't force me to extend your blockâ and if a majority makes a common decision to ignore itâ then it will be wasted effort.
1059 2011-10-31 11:11:32 <edcba> i should propose my idea to miners
1060 2011-10-31 11:11:54 <edcba> pools i mean :)
1061 2011-10-31 11:12:11 <gmaxwell> edcba: I think you should take the time to understand other things completely before proposing new things.
1062 2011-10-31 11:12:41 <edcba> i think you don't see enough globally
1063 2011-10-31 11:13:32 <gmaxwell> Because I think proposals that require every other service to know and validate the bitcoin blockchain are stupid on their face?
1064 2011-10-31 11:14:15 <edcba> my proposal don't require other service to know anything about other services
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1066 2011-10-31 11:14:33 <gmaxwell> edcba: how do they know the timestamp is valid?
1067 2011-10-31 11:15:07 <edcba> the only thing common to services are the block chain loosely defined as bitcoin chain
1068 2011-10-31 11:15:22 <edcba> it just doesn't go down to the merkleroots
1069 2011-10-31 11:15:29 <edcba> it's just data for that
1070 2011-10-31 11:15:46 <edcba> you only have some timestamp proof of work and data
1071 2011-10-31 11:16:42 <gmaxwell> So when I mine in invalid bitcoin block which won't survive it will trick your service unless your service waits several blocks, no?
1072 2011-10-31 11:17:12 <gmaxwell> And the service will still need to know the complete history of bitcoin in order to apply the difficulty and time rules
1073 2011-10-31 11:17:25 <edcba> you may mine some invalid bitcoin block put the hash in the timestamping chain, it will just make bitcoin network wait for another valid block later
1074 2011-10-31 11:17:48 <gmaxwell> And if someone gives miners invalid values for your service, which they can't identify because they're not running it, you'll be trivially DOSed until the next block comes... and the next and the next.
1075 2011-10-31 11:18:15 <gmaxwell> edcba: I can put a valid $service hash in an invalid bitcoin block. It will look valid to the service but the bitcoin block will not survive.
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1078 2011-10-31 11:19:48 <edcba> bitcoin will necessarily be advantaged on the timestamping service since ppl are greedy
1079 2011-10-31 11:19:49 <gmaxwell> (soon enough I'll have you thinking you were proposing merged mining all along)
1080 2011-10-31 11:20:16 <edcba> so they won't waste cpu power for nothing
1081 2011-10-31 11:20:17 <gmaxwell> Hm? who says bitcoin are worth anything at all?
1082 2011-10-31 11:20:29 <edcba> miners
1083 2011-10-31 11:20:35 <edcba> since they use cpu for it :)
1084 2011-10-31 11:21:03 <gmaxwell> no, you're missing the pointâ you're making so that if bitcoin loses popularity all those dependant services must die just because no one cares about bitcoin anymore.
1085 2011-10-31 11:21:29 <edcba> if ppl have interest on other non bitcoin program they will mine too
1086 2011-10-31 11:21:52 <edcba> so the DoSing problem is really a popularity problem
1087 2011-10-31 11:21:56 <edcba> voting with cpu
1088 2011-10-31 11:21:57 <gmaxwell> But they can'tâ not without mining bitcoin, because they'll produce invalid blocks that don't survive otherwise.
1089 2011-10-31 11:22:13 <gmaxwell> And people can DoS by doing so intentionally.
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1092 2011-10-31 11:23:05 <edcba> hmm i'm not sure if you understand that timestamping service would 'run' parallel programs at same time
1093 2011-10-31 11:23:21 <edcba> ie timestamped data = (bitcoin, hash) + (namecoin, hash) + ...
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1101 2011-10-31 11:36:17 <diki> why exactly are we skipping from 0.4.0 to directly 0.5?
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1103 2011-10-31 11:38:07 <cjdelisle> 1.4.1 is a bugfix version
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1105 2011-10-31 11:39:11 <diki> 1.4 seems quite far in the future
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1108 2011-10-31 11:40:36 <Diablo-D3> mrb_: wait hold up
1109 2011-10-31 11:40:50 <Diablo-D3> that italian actually managed to make it work and be net positive?
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1111 2011-10-31 11:41:52 <tcatm> diki: because 0.4 -> 0.5 is a rather big change (new GUI)
1112 2011-10-31 11:42:46 <gmaxwell> 04:09 < edcba> hmm i'm not sure if you understand that timestamping service would 'run' parallel programs at same time
1113 2011-10-31 11:42:51 <gmaxwell> thats what merged mining does.
1114 2011-10-31 11:43:50 <UukGoblin> oh, someone talking about a timestamping service again :-)
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1129 2011-10-31 12:02:50 * nathan7 hands UukGoblin a small, curiously dense muffin
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1132 2011-10-31 12:03:26 <UukGoblin> nathan7, lol :-D
1133 2011-10-31 12:03:37 <UukGoblin> nomNONOMONOMONM
1134 2011-10-31 12:03:49 * nathan7 recharges the shrink ray
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1215 2011-10-31 13:40:33 <makomk> shadders: IIRC the txid that's incorporated into the merkle tree is just a straightforward unmodified hash of the transaction, by the way. No idea what the bitcoin client does internally though.
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1219 2011-10-31 13:45:08 <shadders> makomk: there's some weird endian thing going on... for some reason java hash to reverse the hash byte before adding it as a node to the merkle tree to get the same merkle root
1220 2011-10-31 13:49:08 <makomk> That's odd.
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1231 2011-10-31 14:03:27 <cande> is it possible to "mark" bitcoins?
1232 2011-10-31 14:04:15 <JFK911> they're all unique why would you do that
1233 2011-10-31 14:05:00 <cande> i'm working on a solution for not beeing affected by valueshifts of bitcoins
1234 2011-10-31 14:05:44 <luke-jr_> cande: coins cease to exist when you spend them. the receipient receives new coins.
1235 2011-10-31 14:06:29 <helo> cande: don't worry, nobody marked your bitcoin :)
1236 2011-10-31 14:06:49 <cande> :P
1237 2011-10-31 14:07:26 <cande> damnit! bitcoins need a stable value
1238 2011-10-31 14:07:48 <cande> any workaround for that?
1239 2011-10-31 14:08:05 <helo> the demand has to be stable.
1240 2011-10-31 14:08:14 <helo> no way around it
1241 2011-10-31 14:08:18 <DaQatz> cande, then buy most of them and slowly buy/sell your stock in a way that keeps it stable.
1242 2011-10-31 14:08:25 <cande> yes...
1243 2011-10-31 14:08:33 <DaQatz> You're rich right?
1244 2011-10-31 14:08:37 <DaQatz> ;)
1245 2011-10-31 14:08:44 <cande> :)
1246 2011-10-31 14:08:53 <cande> in a while, yes :)
1247 2011-10-31 14:09:01 <cande> next tuesday perhaps
1248 2011-10-31 14:09:05 <cande> i wish
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1283 2011-10-31 14:45:24 <denisx> luke-jr_: hi, what are you doing against botnets using your pool?
1284 2011-10-31 14:45:39 <luke-jr_> denisx: nothing I can do
1285 2011-10-31 14:45:48 <luke-jr_> unless they fit DDoS profiles
1286 2011-10-31 14:46:13 <cocktopus> can't ban the accounts that they are using?
1287 2011-10-31 14:46:20 <luke-jr_> there are no accounts
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1289 2011-10-31 14:47:25 <denisx> my pool is down to less than 100 workers, but when USR1 signal comes it flushes 35000 lp_waiter
1290 2011-10-31 14:47:41 <UukGoblin> luke-jr_, wouldn't your life be a bit easier if each miner had to solve a captcha before they could start mining?
1291 2011-10-31 14:47:54 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: it would also remove a major feature
1292 2011-10-31 14:47:59 <cocktopus> oh right, yours is that odd pool
1293 2011-10-31 14:48:22 <cocktopus> that uses the payout addy as the username
1294 2011-10-31 14:48:32 <luke-jr_> UukGoblin: plus, it wouldn't solve the problem
1295 2011-10-31 14:49:50 <UukGoblin> luke-jr_, having user accounts would make it a bit harder to get started, but it'd make stuff like namecoin setting easier
1296 2011-10-31 14:49:53 <imsaguy2> solve the captcha once and then point all 10k at it
1297 2011-10-31 14:50:21 <imsaguy2> some people use eligius because they DONT have to create an account :)
1298 2011-10-31 14:50:28 <UukGoblin> imsaguy2, then you easily know what 10k IPs to ban
1299 2011-10-31 14:50:33 <imsaguy2> and it has nothing to do with botnet.
1300 2011-10-31 14:50:53 <imsaguy2> Who wants to go and change the username password for each of their miners?
1301 2011-10-31 14:50:56 <imsaguy2> Seriously.
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1303 2011-10-31 14:51:05 <imsaguy2> for 1 or 2, not so bad.
1304 2011-10-31 14:51:10 <imsaguy2> For 50? it sucks.
1305 2011-10-31 14:51:19 <UukGoblin> I have it all in one place
1306 2011-10-31 14:51:28 <UukGoblin> but why would you have to change anything?
1307 2011-10-31 14:51:33 <UukGoblin> (oh and there's clusterssh and whatnot)
1308 2011-10-31 14:51:51 <imsaguy2> your ideal solution might not be my ideal solution, accept that.
1309 2011-10-31 14:52:48 <UukGoblin> I have no ideal solution
1310 2011-10-31 14:53:01 <UukGoblin> I mean I do, but it's too complicated ;-)
1311 2011-10-31 14:54:21 <imsaguy2> If every pool had identical feature sets, why have different pools? Its good to have different feature sets among the pools so that users can decide what works best for them.
1312 2011-10-31 14:55:06 <UukGoblin> well, there's no pool with an ideal feature set for me
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1315 2011-10-31 14:56:50 <Eliel> even without differences in features, several pools are needed.
1316 2011-10-31 14:57:19 <imsaguy2> True
1317 2011-10-31 14:57:39 <UukGoblin> I wonder when a first sale of a pool will happen
1318 2011-10-31 14:57:41 <Eliel> has slush revealed anything of his plans for the next step in bitcoin mining he mentioned some time back?
1319 2011-10-31 14:57:49 <UukGoblin> i.e. deepbit buying some small pool somewhere ;-]
1320 2011-10-31 14:58:00 <luke-jr_> IMO, public key encryption over passwords any day
1321 2011-10-31 14:58:14 <imsaguy2> Eliel, not that I have seen.
1322 2011-10-31 14:58:37 <imsaguy2> UukGoblin, I'd suspect its already happened, just not really announced.
1323 2011-10-31 14:58:37 <Eliel> yep, with bitcoin 0.5's signing feature, you get more security than with passwords :)
1324 2011-10-31 15:00:10 <UukGoblin> true
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1365 2011-10-31 15:52:58 <graingert> BlueMatt: heya
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1367 2011-10-31 15:53:17 <BlueMatt> hi
1368 2011-10-31 15:54:41 <nathan7> hi
1369 2011-10-31 15:55:17 <BlueMatt> hello
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1372 2011-10-31 15:59:14 <graingert> BlueMatt: is bitcoin/bitcoin going to be the _official_ ppa?
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1374 2011-10-31 15:59:17 <graingert> whatever official means
1375 2011-10-31 15:59:33 <BlueMatt> essentially
1376 2011-10-31 15:59:44 <denisx> ppa?
1377 2011-10-31 15:59:44 <BlueMatt> all that really means is it will be linked from bitcoin.org
1378 2011-10-31 15:59:57 <BlueMatt> personal package archive
1379 2011-10-31 16:00:14 <graingert> it would be nice to get gavinanderson to sign a message with the url in giving it some sort of blessing
1380 2011-10-31 16:00:30 <BlueMatt> well considering he is mia atm...
1381 2011-10-31 16:00:35 <graingert> !google mia
1382 2011-10-31 16:00:36 zhoutong has joined
1383 2011-10-31 16:00:36 <gribble> M.I.A. Born Free: <http://miauk.com/>; M.I.A. (artist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.I.A._(artist)>; Miami International Airport :: Miami-Dade County: <http://www.miami-airport.com/>
1384 2011-10-31 16:00:37 <BlueMatt> (well power lost atm, but same thing)
1385 2011-10-31 16:00:43 <BlueMatt> (missing in action)
1386 2011-10-31 16:00:46 <graingert> oh ic
1387 2011-10-31 16:01:07 <graingert> okay but it's safe to call it the official ppa
1388 2011-10-31 16:01:09 jiunec has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1389 2011-10-31 16:01:23 <graingert> hang on let me pastebin my proposal for the ppa description
1390 2011-10-31 16:01:30 <[Tycho]> UukGoblin, as I remember, someone offered me a couple of pools to buy :)
1391 2011-10-31 16:01:35 <BlueMatt> I wouldnt call it the official one
1392 2011-10-31 16:01:40 <BlueMatt> I would call it the bitcoin ppa
1393 2011-10-31 16:02:18 <BlueMatt> actually, just say "want testers for 0.5rc1 and ppa builds"
1394 2011-10-31 16:02:20 coblee has quit (2!~coblee@216.239.45.130|Read error: Operation timed out)
1395 2011-10-31 16:02:21 zapnap has joined
1396 2011-10-31 16:02:32 <BlueMatt> "new ppa available with bitcoin packages"
1397 2011-10-31 16:02:47 <BlueMatt> and then when gavin announces rc2, make sure he mentions the ppa then
1398 2011-10-31 16:03:01 cenuij has joined
1399 2011-10-31 16:03:01 cenuij has quit (Changing host)
1400 2011-10-31 16:03:01 cenuij has joined
1401 2011-10-31 16:03:13 <BlueMatt> ;;seen sipa
1402 2011-10-31 16:03:13 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 0 days, 1 hour, 46 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <sipa> wait, nvm
1403 2011-10-31 16:03:45 <BlueMatt> what does laanwj go by on here again?
1404 2011-10-31 16:04:00 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1405 2011-10-31 16:04:44 <luke-jr_> he doesn't afaik
1406 2011-10-31 16:04:56 <BlueMatt> I know ive talked to him on here
1407 2011-10-31 16:05:00 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1408 2011-10-31 16:05:05 <BlueMatt> and I know he used an unrelated nick...
1409 2011-10-31 16:05:16 <BlueMatt> (or Im 90% sure)
1410 2011-10-31 16:06:06 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1411 2011-10-31 16:06:51 erle- has quit (Quit: CETERVMÂAVTEMÂCENSEOÂFDPÂESSEÂDELENDVM)
1412 2011-10-31 16:10:45 SomeoneWeird is now known as SomeoneWeirdzzzz
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1414 2011-10-31 16:11:52 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1415 2011-10-31 16:12:37 <graingert> BlueMatt http://pastebin.com/Q1vwHwPD
1416 2011-10-31 16:12:54 zhoutong has joined
1417 2011-10-31 16:13:26 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1418 2011-10-31 16:13:33 BlueMatt_ has joined
1419 2011-10-31 16:13:58 <BlueMatt_> graingert: sounds good
1420 2011-10-31 16:14:00 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
1421 2011-10-31 16:14:04 <graingert> awesome
1422 2011-10-31 16:14:10 <graingert> I'll update it with that text now
1423 2011-10-31 16:15:05 <BlueMatt> oh, but it includes bitcoind, not just bitcoin-qt
1424 2011-10-31 16:16:08 <graingert> Stable Channel of bitcoin-qt and bitcoind for Ubuntu, and their dependencies
1425 2011-10-31 16:16:25 <graingert> that's one of those harvard comas or something
1426 2011-10-31 16:16:27 RAM2012 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1427 2011-10-31 16:16:39 <BlueMatt> sounds good
1428 2011-10-31 16:16:53 <graingert> technically invalid en-gb, but valid en-us afaik
1429 2011-10-31 16:17:40 <BlueMatt> meh, its the ppa description...like 1 person is ever gonna see that...
1430 2011-10-31 16:17:52 <graingert> I read those :(
1431 2011-10-31 16:18:00 <BlueMatt> most people will just apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin and go
1432 2011-10-31 16:18:28 <graingert> ppa-purge ppa:stretch/bitocin
1433 2011-10-31 16:18:31 <graingert> ppa-purge ppa:stretch/bitocoin *
1434 2011-10-31 16:18:32 <luke-jr_> unnecessary. :p
1435 2011-10-31 16:18:44 <luke-jr_> most people should just aptitude install bitcoin-qt :p
1436 2011-10-31 16:18:54 <graingert> it's not in ubuntu yet
1437 2011-10-31 16:19:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: I wish that worked...
1438 2011-10-31 16:19:12 <graingert> chromium hung around in ppa's till natty afaik
1439 2011-10-31 16:19:13 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: once 0.5 is released, hopefully it will
1440 2011-10-31 16:19:25 <luke-jr_> graingert: bitcoind has been in debian for a while now
1441 2011-10-31 16:19:34 <luke-jr_> wxbitcoin wasn't because it needed an unstable wx
1442 2011-10-31 16:19:36 <graingert> bitcoind is in ubuntu
1443 2011-10-31 16:19:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: yea, but it will take another relase of ubuntu before it gets pulled from debian testing
1444 2011-10-31 16:19:48 <BlueMatt> (but bitcoind is a very old versioni in ubuntu)
1445 2011-10-31 16:19:59 <graingert> bitcoin-qt won't get in because od dbgate
1446 2011-10-31 16:20:01 <BlueMatt> (so, at least 6 months before bitcoin-qt is in ubuntu)
1447 2011-10-31 16:20:03 <graingert> of*
1448 2011-10-31 16:20:06 <luke-jr_> graingert: ?
1449 2011-10-31 16:20:12 <graingert> dbgate
1450 2011-10-31 16:20:15 <luke-jr_> English?
1451 2011-10-31 16:20:18 <BlueMatt> graingert: no, it will get put in ubuntu, but linked against db5.1
1452 2011-10-31 16:20:31 <graingert> *gate
1453 2011-10-31 16:20:33 <BlueMatt> (just like bitcoind in ubuntu is)
1454 2011-10-31 16:20:34 <graingert> lol
1455 2011-10-31 16:20:38 <graingert> stargate
1456 2011-10-31 16:21:08 <graingert> luke-jr_ you know antenagate? or watergate
1457 2011-10-31 16:22:55 iocor has joined
1458 2011-10-31 16:26:48 <Eliel> this strategy of locking blocks in the source code, it seems to me like something that could perhaps be automated. What are the practical problems that make it difficulty or risky to automate?
1459 2011-10-31 16:26:53 <graingert> BlueMatt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50450.0
1460 2011-10-31 16:27:25 <BlueMatt> graingert: thanks, sounds good
1461 2011-10-31 16:27:42 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it doesn't add any value that way. You're misunderstanding the purpose of the checkpoints.
1462 2011-10-31 16:27:55 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1463 2011-10-31 16:29:00 <gmaxwell> Eliel: The purpose of the checkpoints is to make it so that newly mind wiped nodes can't get put onto a 'fake' chain by a network attackerâ and also so you can't fill un nodes disks with low difficulty orphan blocks.
1464 2011-10-31 16:29:02 <graingert> gmaxwell: I am personally not clear on their purpose
1465 2011-10-31 16:29:13 ThomasV has joined
1466 2011-10-31 16:29:23 niekie has joined
1467 2011-10-31 16:29:29 <gmaxwell> s/un/up/
1468 2011-10-31 16:30:20 <Eliel> gmaxwell: ok, that clears things up, thank you.
1469 2011-10-31 16:31:12 <gmaxwell> graingert: make sense to you too?
1470 2011-10-31 16:31:24 <graingert> yes
1471 2011-10-31 16:31:42 <graingert> they are no longer needed once the mining rate is high
1472 2011-10-31 16:31:47 BlueMatt-mobile has joined
1473 2011-10-31 16:32:04 <Eliel> I occasionally find myself pondering about how to make a 51%+ attack more difficult to execute, even with 51+% hashpower :)
1474 2011-10-31 16:32:39 <graingert> solid coin use your balence to lower the required difficulty
1475 2011-10-31 16:32:40 <UukGoblin> Eliel, like solidcoin? ;-)
1476 2011-10-31 16:32:48 <Eliel> UukGoblin: I don't like their method
1477 2011-10-31 16:32:57 <UukGoblin> it sucks(tm)
1478 2011-10-31 16:33:05 <graingert> which if you're into is totally fine
1479 2011-10-31 16:33:11 <Eliel> it compromises the most important thing in bitcoin. decentralization.
1480 2011-10-31 16:33:30 <UukGoblin> sure.
1481 2011-10-31 16:33:51 <UukGoblin> it basically means RealSolid is mining half the coins himself
1482 2011-10-31 16:34:06 <graingert> which if you're cool with
1483 2011-10-31 16:34:10 <graingert> is cool
1484 2011-10-31 16:34:14 <luke-jr_> Eliel: the only way I think is to solve the orphan problem
1485 2011-10-31 16:34:33 <UukGoblin> as in allow chain forks?
1486 2011-10-31 16:34:45 <luke-jr_> merges
1487 2011-10-31 16:34:55 m00p has joined
1488 2011-10-31 16:34:59 <gmaxwell> Eliel: unfortunately checkpoints can't do thatâ in order for them to not be risk they have to be placed very far back (so far back that there isn't any question about what chain is the real one no matter how you measure it), so they don't usefully prevent deep splits.
1489 2011-10-31 16:35:15 <gmaxwell> (since no one is going to mine a 4000 block split at the current difficulty)
1490 2011-10-31 16:35:18 <graingert> then there are the odd ones for bugs
1491 2011-10-31 16:35:37 * luke-jr_ thinks forbidding reorganizations from changing over 100 blocks back makes sense
1492 2011-10-31 16:35:58 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: thats nuts.
1493 2011-10-31 16:36:05 <graingert> you'll split the chain or the network
1494 2011-10-31 16:36:10 <gmaxwell> It would mean that if you had an international split- bitcoin would be over.
1495 2011-10-31 16:36:17 <Eliel> I've even thought about methods to achieve consensus without hashpower at all but for those to work, you'd need to be able to trust that an attackers can't isolate you from the rest of the network.
1496 2011-10-31 16:36:35 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1497 2011-10-31 16:36:48 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: that's already the case, more or less
1498 2011-10-31 16:36:52 <gmaxwell> Eliel: if you assume the attacker has no network power, nor special network access then things get really easy. Sadly thats not realistic.
1499 2011-10-31 16:37:11 <graingert> "Technical discussion about Satoshi's Bitcoin client" is bitcoin-qt satoshi's client anymore?
1500 2011-10-31 16:37:14 <bd_> Eliel: even assuming the attacker can't split you, how do you defend against sybil attacks?
1501 2011-10-31 16:37:17 <graingert> or simply "the" bitcoin client
1502 2011-10-31 16:37:25 <luke-jr_> graingert: it's a bitcoin client
1503 2011-10-31 16:37:34 <graingert> that's true
1504 2011-10-31 16:37:44 <graingert> the bitcoin-qt/bitcoind clients
1505 2011-10-31 16:37:47 <graingert> then
1506 2011-10-31 16:37:50 <luke-jr_> Satoshi's client is dead ;)
1507 2011-10-31 16:37:56 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: no, not really, because we can certantly communicate the fact and have people suppress activity. It also wouldn't be hard to make clients detect partiton events and automatically hold of displaying transaction as confirmed.
1508 2011-10-31 16:37:59 <luke-jr_> just derived works exist now
1509 2011-10-31 16:38:31 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: the was true the moment the commit after his last was made.
1510 2011-10-31 16:38:32 <luke-jr_> graingert: Satoshi-derived?
1511 2011-10-31 16:38:56 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: perhaps, but the wx client was named "Satoshi client" for a while
1512 2011-10-31 16:39:11 <luke-jr_> and since the wx client was his original codebase, it seems sensible
1513 2011-10-31 16:39:20 <luke-jr_> (afaik bitcoind was added by Gavin later?)
1514 2011-10-31 16:40:30 <nanotube> from some book i read a long time ago and i forget what it is. "this is my great great grandfather's axe. sure, sometimes it needed a new handle, and sometimes it needed a new head, but is it still not my great great grandfather's axe?"
1515 2011-10-31 16:41:21 <Eliel> bd_: yes, sybil attack is difficult to defend against, but it requires the use of identities. I've been trying to think about methods that don't involve identities.
1516 2011-10-31 16:41:30 BlueMatt-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1517 2011-10-31 16:42:31 <luke-jr_> Eliel: perhaps that's the wrong approach
1518 2011-10-31 16:42:40 <luke-jr_> rather than defend against sybil attacks, neutralize their effect ;)
1519 2011-10-31 16:43:01 <Eliel> luke-jr_: yes, that is one strategy too :)
1520 2011-10-31 16:43:15 <luke-jr_> ie, why are they a problem? how can it be made to not be a problem?
1521 2011-10-31 16:44:14 <luke-jr_> (this was how I came up with *MPPS)
1522 2011-10-31 16:45:19 MC1984 has joined
1523 2011-10-31 16:46:48 <Eliel> the problem of sybil attack would be that it allows the double spend attack. The sybil nodes get the majority of influence towards the target node and give different transactions of the same coins to that node and another to rest of the network.
1524 2011-10-31 16:47:03 <Eliel> ... then again, this feels like eminently detectable state of affairs.
1525 2011-10-31 16:47:19 <Eliel> unless they also manage to grab all of the connections to that node as well.
1526 2011-10-31 16:48:11 <bd_> the problem is you have to eventually converge even if there's a disagreement between honest nodes
1527 2011-10-31 16:48:39 <bd_> and you need to pick some sort of criteria that can't be gamed with a small number of nodes to determine the winner
1528 2011-10-31 16:48:51 <Eliel> hmm... how about, don't solve the double spending problem but rather destroy the money involed in a double spend attempt if one is detected?
1529 2011-10-31 16:49:03 <bd_> Eliel:
1530 2011-10-31 16:49:12 <bd_> This means that anyone could destroy the money they've given to someone else
1531 2011-10-31 16:49:16 dr_win has joined
1532 2011-10-31 16:49:23 <Eliel> only the owner of the address the money is in is supposed to be able to create the transactions.
1533 2011-10-31 16:49:25 <bd_> they don't get it back, but it could be plenty damaging anyway
1534 2011-10-31 16:49:39 <Eliel> oh true.
1535 2011-10-31 16:49:40 RobinPKR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1536 2011-10-31 16:49:43 <bd_> particularly if it's one of those shared wallet services where it might be merged with other coins etc
1537 2011-10-31 16:49:52 dr_win has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1539 2011-10-31 16:51:23 <luke-jr_> the problem is solved if every node agrees before you accept it as confirmed ;)
1540 2011-10-31 16:51:32 <luke-jr_> as in my txn mesh concept
1541 2011-10-31 16:51:36 <bd_> luke-jr_: which means it's trivial to DOS the network?
1542 2011-10-31 16:51:45 <Eliel> for this to be feasible, there'd need to be only very limited window of opportunity during which the destruction of coins could happen
1543 2011-10-31 16:52:03 <luke-jr_> bd_: possibly :|
1544 2011-10-31 16:52:14 <bd_> luke-jr_: you need one node to DOS the entire network :)
1545 2011-10-31 16:52:21 <bd_> and even an ordinary netsplit could do that
1546 2011-10-31 16:52:51 <luke-jr_> perhaps that one+ node can be required to present proof of a conflict or be kicked out? ;)
1547 2011-10-31 16:53:12 <bd_> luke-jr_: it's not even responding at all!
1548 2011-10-31 16:53:13 <Eliel> oh true, confirmation by hashing power has the advantage that it works even during network failures.
1549 2011-10-31 16:53:31 <luke-jr_> bd_: then it gets kicked out
1550 2011-10-31 16:53:46 <bd_> luke-jr_: Imagine we have three nodes: A, B, C
1551 2011-10-31 16:53:50 <bd_> C has evidence of a conflict.
1552 2011-10-31 16:53:53 <bd_> A can connect to C.
1553 2011-10-31 16:53:58 <bd_> B can't connect to C due to routing issues.
1554 2011-10-31 16:54:00 <bd_> Now what?
1555 2011-10-31 16:54:04 <bd_> B thinks C is kicked out
1556 2011-10-31 16:54:07 <bd_> A thinks C isn't kicked out.
1557 2011-10-31 16:54:17 <bd_> Internet routing is not transitive.
1558 2011-10-31 16:54:30 <luke-jr_> bd_: then B sees it as 100% confirmed, and A sees it as 50%
1559 2011-10-31 16:54:37 <lfm> B and A still talk?
1560 2011-10-31 16:54:41 <luke-jr_> bd_: in reality, there will be far more than 3 nodes
1561 2011-10-31 16:54:44 <bd_> luke-jr_: at what point will things be resolved?
1562 2011-10-31 16:55:00 <bd_> in reality, you still see these partial netsplits
1563 2011-10-31 16:55:10 <luke-jr_> bd_: when everyone agrees
1564 2011-10-31 16:55:20 <bd_> luke-jr_: but you don't know when everyone agrees
1565 2011-10-31 16:55:31 <luke-jr_> when everyone making transactions agrees
1566 2011-10-31 16:55:39 <bd_> and how do I know when this happens?
1567 2011-10-31 16:55:43 <luke-jr_> my txn mesh concept works best with high volume of transactions
1568 2011-10-31 16:55:59 <bd_> if I receive some transaction, how do I know when that transaction is safe to assume as not reversible?
1569 2011-10-31 16:56:02 <CIA-101> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r02d630c / src/net.cpp : Remove vladimir's DNS seed, at his request. - http://git.io/h3yWhQ
1570 2011-10-31 16:56:20 <lfm> bd_: if you get 6 confirms in a resonable time you can be pretty sure most of the net is still there
1571 2011-10-31 16:56:32 <luke-jr_> bd_: when it reaches 100% propagation
1572 2011-10-31 16:56:33 <bd_> lfm: so, I need six nodes to do a double spend attack
1573 2011-10-31 16:56:34 dr_win_ has joined
1574 2011-10-31 16:56:42 <luke-jr_> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/newcc.png
1575 2011-10-31 16:56:48 <luke-jr_> ignore lfm, he isn't paying attention
1576 2011-10-31 16:57:13 dr_win has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1577 2011-10-31 16:57:13 <bd_> luke-jr_: ah. interesting concept.
1578 2011-10-31 16:57:46 <bd_> luke-jr_: that said what's stopping an attacker from flooding the network with transactions that reflect an alternate view of history?
1579 2011-10-31 16:58:06 <luke-jr_> bd_: for each Txn A, you report % of the last N transactions which verify it
1580 2011-10-31 16:58:15 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1581 2011-10-31 16:58:22 <luke-jr_> bd_: perhaps require transactions to have a proof-of-work ;)
1582 2011-10-31 16:58:40 <bd_> luke-jr_: and how do you calibrate the proof-of-work? :)
1583 2011-10-31 16:58:52 <luke-jr_> bd_: also, once they reach 100%, they should be permanent
1584 2011-10-31 16:58:52 <Eliel> luke-jr_: your model can be made to work as long as nodes have a certain chance to make a dummy transaction if they don't see enough real transactions.
1585 2011-10-31 16:59:16 <bd_> also, how do you achieve consensus in the end? Say the attacker inserts two conflicting txns on different ends of the network - how does the rest of the (honest) network eventually reach consensus?
1586 2011-10-31 16:59:22 <Eliel> except perhaps in cases when there are no real transactions taking place.
1587 2011-10-31 16:59:23 <luke-jr_> Eliel: can always organize your own wallet
1588 2011-10-31 16:59:49 <luke-jr_> bd_: it will take longer, but eventually one will get preferred globally
1589 2011-10-31 17:00:01 <bd_> luke-jr_: this is important to prove, rather than assume :)
1590 2011-10-31 17:00:42 <luke-jr_> bd_: it's neither an assumption nor a proof; it's a design goal :p
1591 2011-10-31 17:01:00 <bd_> so basically the Hard Part is completely unsolved? :)
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1593 2011-10-31 17:01:03 <Eliel> it still needs to be proven :)
1594 2011-10-31 17:01:15 <Eliel> that the design fulfills it :)
1595 2011-10-31 17:01:15 <luke-jr_> it's not that hard
1596 2011-10-31 17:01:22 <luke-jr_> each node creates transactions as it sees the history
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1598 2011-10-31 17:02:01 <Eliel> but frankly, the blockchain is more efficient in storing transaction history than this model.
1599 2011-10-31 17:02:11 <luke-jr_> also, since non-double-spends would confirm in a matter of seconds, it would be foolish to NOT wait for 100
1600 2011-10-31 17:02:13 <luke-jr_> %
1601 2011-10-31 17:02:26 <luke-jr_> Eliel: debatable
1602 2011-10-31 17:02:36 <luke-jr_> Eliel: long-term storage is another issue entirely, really
1603 2011-10-31 17:03:24 <Eliel> luke-jr_: for this reason, I feel like this model could be useful if applied to transactions that aren't included in the blockchain yet.
1604 2011-10-31 17:03:35 BlueMatt has joined
1605 2011-10-31 17:03:55 <Eliel> where the extra data created by this model can be forgotten once a block containing the transactions appears.
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1608 2011-10-31 17:06:45 <luke-jr_> Eliel: the blockchain isn't much better at long-term history
1609 2011-10-31 17:07:02 <luke-jr_> perhaps "summary blocks" could be created in the mesh
1610 2011-10-31 17:07:22 <luke-jr_> which simply have the pubkey scripts and amounts
1611 2011-10-31 17:07:39 <luke-jr_> of transactions reaching 100% at the time they're produced
1612 2011-10-31 17:07:51 <luke-jr_> thus discarding the histories entirely
1613 2011-10-31 17:08:45 <Eliel> luke-jr_: blockchain has a stable 80 bytes extra per block in addition to the transactions. Your model would have a stable +32 bytes per transaction since it'd have to refer to a previous transaction.
1614 2011-10-31 17:09:38 erus` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1615 2011-10-31 17:10:03 <luke-jr_> Eliel: to many previous
1616 2011-10-31 17:10:18 <luke-jr_> Eliel: but those transactions would only be stored until the next summary block ;)
1617 2011-10-31 17:10:30 <luke-jr_> at which point it'd just be totalled up with the key
1618 2011-10-31 17:11:18 <luke-jr_> (and old summary blocks can be discarded entirely, too)
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1620 2011-10-31 17:13:06 <Eliel> luke-jr_: yes, and that summary block would be very similar to the current block so might as well use that :P
1621 2011-10-31 17:13:30 wasabi2 has joined
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1623 2011-10-31 17:13:56 <luke-jr_> current blocks require all previous blocks ;)
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1627 2011-10-31 17:18:37 zhoutong has joined
1628 2011-10-31 17:20:00 <Eliel> luke-jr_: you mean to make summary blocks of all previous transactions?
1629 2011-10-31 17:20:00 zhoutong has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1630 2011-10-31 17:20:10 <luke-jr_> yes
1631 2011-10-31 17:20:13 <luke-jr_> or rather
1632 2011-10-31 17:20:18 <luke-jr_> of all current balances
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1635 2011-10-31 17:20:58 zhoutong has joined
1636 2011-10-31 17:21:01 <Eliel> luke-jr: have you taken a look at this Open Transaction server project?
1637 2011-10-31 17:21:13 robblesz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1638 2011-10-31 17:21:13 <luke-jr> no
1639 2011-10-31 17:21:19 <Eliel> it looks interesting.
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1644 2011-10-31 17:22:07 <Eliel> https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki
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1647 2011-10-31 17:23:01 <UukGoblin> Eliel, yeah, interesting...
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1649 2011-10-31 17:23:15 <UukGoblin> Eliel, is it like bitcoin but without the blockchain? :-S
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1653 2011-10-31 17:25:10 <Eliel> UukGoblin: not quite. It can be complementary to bitcoin though.
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1655 2011-10-31 17:26:22 <UukGoblin> Eliel, I need an introduction for programmer
1656 2011-10-31 17:26:39 <UukGoblin> cause I totally don't get it from glancing at the main page and FAQ :-P
1657 2011-10-31 17:26:53 <Eliel> UukGoblin: yeah, I didn't get it too easily either.
1658 2011-10-31 17:27:11 <Eliel> I watched the two video clips first and then read the text.
1659 2011-10-31 17:27:24 <Eliel> it was quite some effort to understand what it is about.
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1661 2011-10-31 17:28:28 <UukGoblin> so it requires servers
1662 2011-10-31 17:28:49 <UukGoblin> do servers do the job of securing against double-spends?
1663 2011-10-31 17:28:50 <Eliel> basically, it's a software allowing for decetralized banking without giving the banks any power over the assets. They'd only verify the transactions. Plus, it supports any number of different asset types.
1664 2011-10-31 17:29:03 <Eliel> yes
1665 2011-10-31 17:29:16 <UukGoblin> so do I have to trust the server that it does its job well?
1666 2011-10-31 17:29:46 <Eliel> no, all you need from the server is the signature.
1667 2011-10-31 17:30:09 <UukGoblin> hmm
1668 2011-10-31 17:30:20 <UukGoblin> can the server not sign twice for a double spend? :-P
1669 2011-10-31 17:30:45 <Eliel> everything needs 3 signatures, sender's receiver's and the server's
1670 2011-10-31 17:31:03 <diki> So
1671 2011-10-31 17:31:31 <diki> Using amd adl, i am thinking of creating for myself a small application which will monitor gpu tems, and if they are above a set threshold, terminate all the "specified" processes
1672 2011-10-31 17:31:50 <diki> Well the only flaw is that it will terminate all phoenix processes regardless of which gpu was overheating
1673 2011-10-31 17:32:10 <Eliel> UukGoblin: I'd better figure out how to answer that question. I didn't quite understand it that deeply from the first pass at it yet :)
1674 2011-10-31 17:32:39 <Eliel> UukGoblin: but from what is claimed on the page, it's built in a way that you don't need to trust the server.
1675 2011-10-31 17:33:24 <UukGoblin> I mean... let's imagine scenario Alice, Bob, Charlie, Server... Alice gets a token T1 from Server, then spends it to Bob, creating a triple-signed receipt together with the Server... Server accidentally adds an M to Alice's name to produce Malice, because it's, after all, malicious... Anyway Alice then uses the same token T1 to pay Charlie, and gets a triple-signature from the Server as well... so both Bob and Charlie think they got paid, becaus
1676 2011-10-31 17:33:34 <Eliel> I guess this page is what would explain it https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Triple-Signed-Receipts
1677 2011-10-31 17:34:32 <Eliel> UukGoblin: but I don't think that would end up as a double spend, rather your account would end up deducted for both of the transfers.
1678 2011-10-31 17:34:42 <mrb_> Diablo-D3: yes. you know what cheap energy means? Bitcoin difficulty will shoot up :)
1679 2011-10-31 17:34:49 <UukGoblin> ah thanks, reading that now
1680 2011-10-31 17:36:40 * mrb_ vows to be the first to mine on nickel-hydrogen fusion
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1683 2011-10-31 17:39:15 <Eliel> UukGoblin: the main thing with Open Transaction is that it allows anyone to mint a digital asset type and create as many of them as they want. (whether anyone else will value them is another matter though)
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1685 2011-10-31 17:39:30 <Eliel> UukGoblin: so it's not like Bitcoin in that respect.
1686 2011-10-31 17:39:44 <UukGoblin> yeah, I was thinking of such use case earlier, actually
1687 2011-10-31 17:39:55 <UukGoblin> this kinda makes the initial cash distribution different
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1689 2011-10-31 17:40:07 <UukGoblin> but I don't see how you can overcome the timestamping aspect of bitcoin here
1690 2011-10-31 17:40:25 <UukGoblin> timestamping provides double-spending protection
1691 2011-10-31 17:40:33 <Eliel> but if you combine it with bitcoin. That is, use bitcoin as the reserve currency, you can actually prove that you have the bitcoins you've released assets for in the open transaction system.
1692 2011-10-31 17:41:23 <CIA-101> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r257 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Implement ReverseDwordBytes. Resolves issue 100
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1695 2011-10-31 17:44:54 <Eliel> UukGoblin: looks to me like this transaction number thing somehow prevents double spends.
1696 2011-10-31 17:45:38 <UukGoblin> can't Bob and Charlie both receive transaction number #45?
1697 2011-10-31 17:45:40 <Eliel> although, it cannot prevent overspending other than through the server rejecting it.
1698 2011-10-31 17:46:01 <UukGoblin> with different data on it?
1699 2011-10-31 17:46:13 <nanotube> i haven't read the ot stuff in detail, but from what i understand, you have to trust the server to keep track of things
1700 2011-10-31 17:46:45 <nanotube> and by virtue of there being a server, it is centralized as well (i.e., if server that administers assetX dies, good bye assetX until server is restored
1701 2011-10-31 17:46:49 <nanotube> )
1702 2011-10-31 17:47:09 <UukGoblin> just reading https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/CENTRALIZED
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1704 2011-10-31 17:50:37 <UukGoblin> right
1705 2011-10-31 17:50:43 <UukGoblin> so like I said, a server can be malicious
1706 2011-10-31 17:51:08 <UukGoblin> he's proposing to hack around it by spreading trust onto multiple servers and giving the majority of them the right to vote for truth...
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1708 2011-10-31 17:51:44 <UukGoblin> but I wouldn't trust that 40 of 50 random servers on tor will behave nice...
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1710 2011-10-31 17:51:50 <Eliel> it's got different strengths when compared to bitcoin. Better anonymity but trust issues.
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1713 2011-10-31 17:53:09 <UukGoblin> the guy calls them "low-trust servers". So some trust is definitely required.
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1715 2011-10-31 17:54:45 <Eliel> yes, the idea is basically that you need to trust that it infact is a server network run by different people.
1716 2011-10-31 17:55:53 <Eliel> that is, different people who aren't conspiring to do evil stuff.
1717 2011-10-31 17:56:22 <UukGoblin> even then I'm not exactly sure what happens if alice and server_1 are malicious...
1718 2011-10-31 17:56:39 <UukGoblin> at some point honest server_2 and server_3 can be presented valid cheques #45
1719 2011-10-31 17:56:49 <UukGoblin> two different valid cheques #45
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1757 2011-10-31 18:55:29 <Eliel> UukGoblin: in that case I'd guess only the first one to be presented gets accepted.
1758 2011-10-31 18:56:04 <Eliel> UukGoblin: but those two cheques can't be created without your cooperation.
1759 2011-10-31 18:56:21 <Eliel> you'd have to sign them both for them to be different.
1760 2011-10-31 18:57:20 <Eliel> as far as I understood the system, it's more of designed to allow proof of wrongdoing, if it happens, rather than prevent it.
1761 2011-10-31 18:57:36 <nanotube> well, bitcoin is the same - only you can create two spending transactions
1762 2011-10-31 18:57:47 <nanotube> (for the same coins that is)
1763 2011-10-31 18:58:13 <Eliel> yep
1764 2011-10-31 18:58:16 <nanotube> the real question is, if you can create two tx, and send them to two parties, and they both ship you the goods
1765 2011-10-31 18:58:30 <nanotube> after it resolves, one of the guys will be SOL
1766 2011-10-31 18:58:41 <nanotube> so how does OT prevent that? guess each one has to query the server ?
1767 2011-10-31 18:58:48 <Eliel> I guess the idea is that they can resolve it immediately.
1768 2011-10-31 18:59:03 <Eliel> the system has more concepts than just txs
1769 2011-10-31 18:59:28 <Eliel> it also has cheque's and vouchers as well as some kind of system it calls anonymous cash which I didn't quite understand yet.
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1911 2011-10-31 21:47:52 <Diablo-D3> ;;ticker
1912 2011-10-31 21:47:52 <gribble> Best bid: 3.23, Best ask: 3.23051, Bid-ask spread: 0.00051, Last trade: 3.23, 24 hour volume: 24984, 24 hour low: 3.066, 24 hour high: 3.31167
1913 2011-10-31 21:48:12 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 1.5 * 3.23
1914 2011-10-31 21:48:13 <gribble> 1.5 * 3.23 = 4.84500
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1968 2011-10-31 23:04:10 <diki> which bitcoin version or patch should i get to enable merged mining?
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1975 2011-10-31 23:12:33 <gjs278> bitcoin mining is dead
1976 2011-10-31 23:13:03 * Diablo-D3 looks
1977 2011-10-31 23:13:07 <Diablo-D3> nope, Im still profiting.
1978 2011-10-31 23:13:29 <diki> so
1979 2011-10-31 23:13:29 <imsaguy> if mining was dead, we wouldn't have any more blocks.
1980 2011-10-31 23:13:44 <Diablo-D3> and without more blocks, how would I play tetris?!
1981 2011-10-31 23:13:45 <diki> it appears as though 0.5.0 lost the ability to compile with qt with mingw32?
1982 2011-10-31 23:13:57 <gjs278> I don't mine unless it hits $7 a day mark
1983 2011-10-31 23:14:00 <diki> s/qt/a gui in fact
1984 2011-10-31 23:14:07 <gjs278> otherwise I'm not going to burn out this no warranty 5970
1985 2011-10-31 23:14:08 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1986 2011-10-31 23:14:24 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: erm, who cares, you could have paid it off several fold by now
1987 2011-10-31 23:14:54 <gjs278> I think I'm just going to sell it and use the 5870 I bought awhile back as my primary
1988 2011-10-31 23:15:07 <gjs278> I don't need the tri crossfire unfortunately
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1992 2011-10-31 23:18:05 <JFK911> microsoft steals bitcoin concept to "secure" e-voting
1993 2011-10-31 23:18:06 <JFK911> The idea proposed by Microsoft Research involves using a running hash that would add a hash of the previous voter's receipt to each person's receipt
1994 2011-10-31 23:18:31 <imsaguy> awesome
1995 2011-10-31 23:18:40 <imsaguy> microsft at their bestestest
1996 2011-10-31 23:18:48 <Eliel> that's a nice way to use the blockchain concept for voting though :)
1997 2011-10-31 23:18:52 <JFK911> bitcoin should have patented this!
1998 2011-10-31 23:19:00 <imsaguy> s/bitcoin/mtgox
1999 2011-10-31 23:19:11 <imsaguy> /
2000 2011-10-31 23:19:45 <Eliel> JFK911: got a link on that?
2001 2011-10-31 23:20:15 <JFK911> http://politics.slashdot.org/story/11/10/31/2016226/microsoft-proposes-fix-for-e-voting-attack
2002 2011-10-31 23:22:48 <Eliel> it does complicate altering the votes afterwards... especially if the system prints the hash-series on paper as it works.
2003 2011-10-31 23:23:01 * diki cares not
2004 2011-10-31 23:23:17 <diki> In my country...most votes were fake :D
2005 2011-10-31 23:23:25 <diki> rather, they were bought
2006 2011-10-31 23:25:20 <cjdelisle> printing a random number on a receipt is the best thing they can do
2007 2011-10-31 23:25:53 <cjdelisle> you get a random number and who you voted for on a piece of paper, then you download a torrent with every vote and accompanying random number
2008 2011-10-31 23:26:09 <cjdelisle> if your piece of paper doesn't match the data in the torrent, your vote was stolen
2009 2011-10-31 23:26:48 <cjdelisle> and everyone can count the votes by adding up everything in the torrent
2010 2011-10-31 23:27:28 <Eliel> yep, running hash sequence would make vote manipulation very difficult to do undetected.
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2012 2011-10-31 23:27:48 <Eliel> unless they could somehow do it while the voters are voting.
2013 2011-10-31 23:28:32 <cjdelisle> yea, if you press gore and the receipt says bush, you may not have proof but you will walk out with a very bad taste in your mouth
2014 2011-10-31 23:28:45 <imsaguy> only if its hanging.
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2017 2011-10-31 23:29:09 <cjdelisle> A hanging? where and when?!
2018 2011-10-31 23:29:18 <imsaguy> a hanging chad
2019 2011-10-31 23:29:29 <cjdelisle> Chad was such a nice guy though
2020 2011-10-31 23:30:27 TheZimm has joined
2021 2011-10-31 23:30:28 <imsaguy> only the pregnant ones
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2026 2011-10-31 23:37:13 <cjdelisle> that whole florida votefraud scandal stunk like 2 week old fish
2027 2011-10-31 23:38:20 <cjdelisle> They got caught red handed throwing ballots away and there were more absentee ballots in florida than there are people in the military total
2028 2011-10-31 23:39:34 <cjdelisle> and when they were caught, they say what any shoplifter might say... "it's complicated" so they make up this long story about old voting machines and indeterminent ballots to lead people away fro the fact that they just got busted.
2029 2011-10-31 23:39:40 <Eliel> hmm... to return to open transaction and the federated transaction model, Bitcoin blockchain model could probably work for implementing the parts that require trust.
2030 2011-10-31 23:40:06 <cjdelisle> yea, OT should use a blockchain
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2032 2011-10-31 23:40:51 <cjdelisle> FT doesn't like it because it prevents you from handing over cash anonymously but it also blocks servers from inflating the currenct
2033 2011-10-31 23:40:54 <cjdelisle> *currency
2034 2011-10-31 23:41:08 <cjdelisle> a problem which until it's fixed, sinks OT.
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2036 2011-10-31 23:43:14 <Eliel> I was thinking of using blockchain to mark which transaction ids are used and which aren't.
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2038 2011-10-31 23:44:08 <cjdelisle> You can use bitcoin to transfer title to property pretty easily
2039 2011-10-31 23:44:41 <cjdelisle> just send someone a satoshi and whomever can return that satoshi to you can have the property.
2040 2011-10-31 23:45:14 <cjdelisle> if they send it to another wallet addr, you just assume that the first transfer out of that address takes the "golden satoshi" with it.
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2050 2011-10-31 23:54:45 <UukGoblin> Eliel, nanotube: I guess with OT, if BOTH the server and the payer are malicious, they can get away with it for quite a while at least
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2052 2011-10-31 23:54:53 <UukGoblin> longer than with a bitcoin double-spend
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2054 2011-10-31 23:55:54 <Eliel> UukGoblin: you mean, if they're both malicious and cooperating.
2055 2011-10-31 23:56:03 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2056 2011-10-31 23:56:52 <UukGoblin> yes
2057 2011-10-31 23:58:13 <Eliel> that is not quite that unlikely event, since both could be the server operator.
2058 2011-10-31 23:58:56 <UukGoblin> yes